[extropy-chat] The Trouble With Democracy

[Olga Bourlin]

From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
>
> --- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:

> > > Oh WHAAAAAAAA  While black soldiers had to whine about getting
> > powdered> > > eggs, Jews in Germany were getting exterminated, so put
that
> > > "perspective" in your pipe and smoke it. While blacks were getting
> > > stuck in logistics jobs instead of being sent to the front to die
> > (oh,> > > the horror), jewish prisoners were being worked to death
building
> > V-2> > > rockets in cave factories. While black soldiers were risking
court
> > > martial for refusing to load or unload dangerous munition cargoes
> > from> > > ships, jews refusing to work were summarily shot. By the time
> > several> > > dozen black airmen became subjects in the Tuskegee
syphyllis
> > > experiments, millions of jews had been exterminated in a national
> > > experiment in racial engineering. Got enough apples for THAT
> > perspective?
> >
> > I was comparing the way *German soldiers* were supposedly being
> > treated vs. > > the way some *"black" American citizens* (and "black"
military
> > personnel) > were being treated here.  But you are talking about how
Jews were
> > treated -> > in Europe.  Speaking of apples (since you conveniently
brought them
> > up) -> > why have have sidled over into the "oranges" perspective?
>
> I was comparing how one oppressed minority was treated in Germany with
> how another was treated in the US. Apples and apples, dear.

Wrong.  *You* started comparing the oppressed in Germany with the oppressed
in America, but (again) that was *not* my point.  The United States was
fighting *against* Germany.  Germany (here's the crucial difference) didn't
pretend to be the "land of the free."  U.S./democracy:  apples.
Germany/fascism:  oranges.

Of course, there was that incident with the ship St Louis, where the U.S.
wouldn't allow Jews fleeing the Nazis to disembark on our shores, but, again
... another interesting aside to the whole sorry saga:
http://www.ushmm.org/stlouis/story/voyage/

> > The way Jews were treated in Europe in no way justified the way
> > American citizens were treated > > right here.  That is not to say Jews
weren't treated horribly.  They > > were > > (somewhat less horribly in the
United States, and about as nighmarish > > horribly as can be imagined
during the reign of the Nazis in Europe).> > That's another subject, and
another (added) perspective.
>
> Dead is a bit more than 'being treated horribly'. Being treated
> horribly is having your credit card refused or sitting in the back of
> the bus.

You mean dead is worse than ...?  No kidding?  Well, thank you for this
eye-opening revelation.  (Who knows?  One of these days we may even hear you
come to the conclusion:  "Better red than dead."  On second thought
........... naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.)

But seriously, you are being naive, simplistic and intellectually dishonest
if you are implying (using your example) that "sitting [at] the back of the
bus" was about as bad as things got for "blacks" in America.  You know
better than that.  You don't score points for your case by soft peddling
cruelly real issues like the history of racism in America.

> > Mike, why do you seem so hostile?  Can't we talk?

> Sorry, it's late, I've been very tired from nursing mom, and you know
> that moral equivilancy arguments always tick me off, and of course part
> of my family is jewish.

Whether your family is part Jewish (or not) should have no bearing on your
empathy for people who are treated unfairly.   Or - am I the one who's
confused? - because I just can't help but think:  *Why* should that matter?

Good night, Sweet Prince ...

Olga