[extropy-chat] Re: POL(L): The Constitution of Europe

[randy]

On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:12:36 -0000, you wrote

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "JDP" <jacques at dtext.com>
>To: "Dirk Bruere" <dirk at neopax.com>; "ExI chat list"
><extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 11:48 PM
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: POL(L): The Constitution of Europe
>
>
>> Dirk Bruere wrote:
>>
>> > From: "JDP" <jacques at dtext.com>
>> >>
>> >>Do/did we need a formal Europe at all? Are European Extropes pro-Europe?
>> >>Why?
>> >
>> >
>> > Because having a relatively coherent economic bloc of around 450m people
>is
>> > a base which can wield enough power to maintain the economic and
>military
>> > independence of its member states with respect to other world forces.
>> >
>> > However, I am not in favour of an EU govt in Brussels that feels it can
>poke
>> > its nose into the purely internal workings of its member states eg
>criminal
>> > law, various Rights issues etc. The EU should be limited to inter
>national
>> > issues only.
>>
>> Are there good reasons to think that agreement and coherent behaviour is
>> possible in economic and military international matters without
>> political unity?
>
>Yes.
>NATO, EU (current)
>However, if you mean launching global military adventures at a moments
>notice on trumped up charges (eg WMDs) then no.
>Which is a good thing.
>
>> Suppose a situation similar to WWII, with fascist Germany invading
>> nearby countries, and causing a potentially global threat, and where the
>> US got involved. Will a politically loose Europe manage to make the
>> decision to get involved, or will it stay irresolute and passive while
>> no clear agreement can be reached by the member States, except on the
>> most extreme cases?
>
>Hopefully, it would stay out of other peoples business.
>
>> In other words, can Europe really leverage its military (and economic)
>> power as a bloc while preserving the freedom and independence of its
>> member States? Can you have the advantages of being a big State when you
>> are a loose, ad hoc federation?
>
>I do not call neo-imperialism and a huge military/industrial complex an
>'advantage'.


Hear, hear. I seem to be almost alone in American meatspace when it
comes to being sickened by the endless media propaganda that
encourages this senseless corporate imperialism currently being
practiced.  Almost no one else here in meatspace even seems to notice
the huge propaganda machine leveled at us everyday in the media....

As for your discussion on the EU, it has of course apparently been
co-opted by the forces of laissez faire corporate
capitalism/neoliberalism in the interests of destroying the various EU
welfare states.  But it looks as if most of the citizens and leaders
of many of the various member countries are hep to that fact and are
just ignoring the parts of the EU agreements that are meant to achieve
welfare state destruction, and going along with the parts of the
agreements that the citizens like.  Please correct me if I am
wrong.....



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