[extropy-chat] I believe

[Brett Paatsch]

BillK writes:

> On Sat Nov 08, 2003 09:33 pm Brett Paatsch wrote:
> > There is nothing a rational person needs to use the
> > word *believe* for. [Except to talk about the word as
> > a meme  and a danger] There are *heaps* of alternatives
> > that a rational  person can use. Look in any dictionary or
> > thesaurus.
> >
> > It is a big mistake to keep using belief or to try and modify
> > it, or  sort out good beliefs from bad beliefs because that
> > just suggests it  sometimes maps to a valid referent. It
> > doesn't. It doesn't because  the person *using* it cannot
> > be sure that others *hearing* it will get the meaning that it
> > was intended to have when they used it.
> >
>
> Brett has a point here, because according to the dictionary
> 'believe' legally can be used in many different ways.
>
> Meaning 1) (Which Brett objects to)
> to follow a credo, to have a religious faith, to be a believer.
> Usage: "When you hear his sermons, you will be able to
> believe also".
>
> Meaning 2)
> to credit with veracity.
> Usage: "You cannot believe this man"
                                 [trust]

[snip]


> Meaning 3)
> to be confident about something.
> Usage: "I believe that my income tax form [is] correct[ly]".
                 [think]
                 [am confident]
>
> Meaning 4)
> to accept as true, to take to be true.
> Usage: "I believe his report"
                 [accept]
                 [am confident of]

>         "He believes in mysticism"

                 ...this *may* be a valid use - or it *may* be a slur on
him.
          If he said "I believes" in mysticism - then it is fair warning
          to others to pass on warning that their is a dangerous meme
          carrier around.  But even in this usage most folks will not hear
         that statement as a warning unless they are against mysticism.

>         "We didn't believe his stories from the War".
                           [accept]
                           [credit]
>
> Meaning 5)
> to judge or regard, to look upon.
> Usage: "I believe (think) he is very smart"
>         "I believe (judge) that he is her boyfriend"
>         "A racist believes (considers) such people to be inferior"

You've put some substitues in already. But it is here
that *belief* is MOST dangerous and it is here where the
substitutes are not done in parliaments and on juries.

belief in the context of judgements denotes PREJUDICE not
JUDGEMENT - exactly the opposite of what we want !!

>
>
> But, in my opinion, it is too restrictive to the English language
> to force 'believe' into the straitjacket of Meaning 1. A religious
> context would invoke Meaning 1, but in normal day-to-day
> conversation 'believe'  is used constantly with no religious
> connotations at all.

Do you want to use the language to help save your life or do
you want to have a meme use your life to help it propagate?

Please note one cannot ban a meme like the word belief -one
can only point out its dangers and one-by-one (person) try
and show that the person should choose for themselves not
to help talk themselves to death by propagating the believing
meme.

>
> Although when someone says "I believe United will win the
> Cup" it is debatable just how much religious fervor is invoked
> by football supporters. ;)
>
>
> BillK
> (believing his opinion to be correct)

Bill, do you think it is better to be clearer in trying to get a
message through? Do you think that those who hear you use
the word belief in the wider world will hear in you use the
same meaning that you intended to have when you are arguing
for things that may be important to you? If not -why not choose
to use the words that give you the best chance of being
understood and being persuasive?

Regards,
Brett