[extropy-chat] Europe vs America (was Depressing thought....)

[JDP]

Randy wrote (10.11.2003/10:45) :
> 
> Greg wrote
> 
> >The corporate form per se is no more or less problematic than any
> >other means of holding and using property and contract rights. The
> >problem arises when state power is fused with the form through
> >corporatist government policies. Blaiming "corporations" is like
> >blaming any other interest group that bids for and buys government
> >favor, be they "farmers," "unions" or other organized groups that
> >manage to garner preferential treatment from the state.
> >Corporations are RELATVELY weak in the EU (compared to the US), but
> >these other organized interest groups have done just as much harm
> >by co-opting state power for their special interests in the EU --
> >viz. France and their endless strikes and labor-driven politics,
> 
> But how do you define "harm"?  The strikes in Europe are simply the
> expression of solidarity of the people and have resulted in the
> superior living conditions of the French (and other NW European
> countries), as compared to the Americans:

Randy,

I wish the picture you are drawing of France was true.

France has 10% unemployment (that's NOT counting people on social
welfare, only people who were employed some months ago) and rising.
The social security (meaning free health services) has a HUGE deficit,
so it won't be able to carry on very long that way.

The government has every difficulty to make the least reform, because
of the unions and strikes, especially in the public service.
Meanwhile, problems accumulate, and seem to never get solved.

Here's my current view of things: Liberty and responsability directly
correlate with collective prosperity through creative competition. If
you are not sure you want to say to the weak: "find a way to make
yourself useful or die", and to the strong: "you're welcome to become
a half-god by accumulating wealth", because you value equality, and
the support of the weak, you can do it, but it will lower collective
prosperity. Even in France, there are many people who work very hard
the whole day only to sustain themselves. I find it reasonable to be
appalled at it.

Neither the US nor France are at one extremity of the theorical
spectrum. But France is a bit more on the equality-support side. It
has some good aspects (humble people feel more empowered and less
"enslaved", and there may be a general "quality of life" and more
relaxed approach of things), and it has some bad aspects (less
prosperity, which means even more support needed, and so on in a
vicious circle).

One thought which I never heard voiced, but which seems rather obvious
to me, is that by being more on the liberty-responsability end of the
spectrum, the USA pay the "inequality price" for some of its
creativity, that is then available for free to other countries. It
might be that Europe would have been forced a long time ago to get
back to more liberty-responsability if it couldn't use what the US
create (think computers, Internet, etc.). I'm not an economist,
though.

I don't think there is one definite answer about
liberty-responsability versus equality-support. Within the bounds of
our ape psyche (and maybe beyond), the redirection of competitive
"instincts" into production at the exclusion of coercion (which is
what the political philosophy of liberty is about seen at our
contemporary light) may well be the best way to go. It has to be
acknowledged that it does pressure individuals, though, even if more
collective prosperity tends to make things easier even for the weak.
In the end, it's probably more difficult in France than in the US due
to less prosperity, but the perception people in lower situations have
of life may be a bit better and less harsh, which possibly produces a
"better atmosphere".

Silly French joke: You know why they chose the rooster as the embleme
for France? Because it's the only animal that still sings even with
his feet in the mud. I am afraid this is what you get with too much
equality-support: some kind of warmth with material misery.

Jacques
 




> 
> The average American works 25% more hours than the average French.
> 
> And the average French does not have to ever worry about getting
> cancer and not being able to pay for treatment--medical care is
> provided by the state without charge in  France. 
> 
> Likewise, they do not have to worry about saving up for their child's
> education -- it is provided without charge by the state.
> 
> Plus, if the job comes to an end, there is long term unemployment.
> 
> The French obtained this superior lifestyle through strikes and other
> tactics. So where is the "harm"? Or did you mean "benefit"?  :-)
> 
> >or the agricultural protectionism in the EU that is one of the main factors derailing free trade in the >world.  The evil doesn't lie in the legal form per se, but in the sell-out of state power.
> 
> American govt sells out 10 times worse than any of the NW Euro
> countries. The European citizenry would (and have) shut down their
> countries if they think they have been sold out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------------
> The United States of America: If you like low wages, you'll love long hours!
> 
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