From joe at barrera.org Sun Aug 1 00:02:08 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 17:02:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <410C31C9.80100@cox.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> <410C1E8B.8C5AAC62@sasktel.net> <410C31C9.80100@cox.net> Message-ID: <410C3300.6070307@barrera.org> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > The more interesting question is: what program is doing the > re-direct. It sounds like you may have hostile spyware on your > system. That would be my bet. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 03:39:56 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:39:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Cool' fuel cells In-Reply-To: <20040723001940.53740.qmail@web60007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040801033956.33362.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Davis wrote:> > > Keeping in mind that one thin film SOFC is just a > fraction of the size of a human hair with an output of > 0.8 to 0.9 Volts, a stack of 100 to 120 of these fuel > cells would generate about 100 volts. When connected > to a homeowner's natural gas line, the stack would > provide the needed electrical energy to run the > household at an efficiency of approximately 65 > percent. This would be a twofold increase over power > plants today, as they operate at 30 to 35 percent > efficiency. Wall voltage of 110/120 VAC is what is called RMS voltage, meaning the 120 volt rating is the root mean square value, or about 72% of peak voltage (since it's a sine wave). Generating 120 volts DC is fine, but you need to turn it into alternating current to do work with many home appliances (AC is also more efficient, since it's just electrons moving back and forth rather than taking a long trip). Power inverters can be built which are 97% efficient or better. > > SOFCs, in general, operate at 900 to 1,000 degrees > Celsius, a very high temperature that requires exotic > structural materials and significant thermal > insulation. However, the thin film solid oxide fuel > cell has an operating temperature of 450 to 500 > degrees Celsius, one half that of current SOFCs. This > lower temperature is largely a result of the > drastically decreased thickness of the > electrolyte-working region of these thin film SOFCs > and negates the need for exotic structural materials > and extensive insulation. The lower temperature also > eliminates the need for catalysts (known as reformers) > for the fuel cell. All of these features indicate a > reduced cost for the thin film SOFC and positive > future impact on the fuel cell market. Since fuel cells seem to be so good at producing heat, why don't people use a liquid cooling system to extract more energy from the waste heat? Cogeneration would up that already good efficiency even higher. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 1 04:59:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 21:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20040801045902.39863.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dennis Roberts wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damien Broderick" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:01 PM > Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service > revealed > > > > BUSH: THE MISSING YEARS > > > > http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02 > > > > > > _After reading the article this's obvious that GW is not Alfred E. > Neuman > he's Forrest Gump. This article is hilarious. It is interesting that it's coming out at the same time that John Kerry's Swift Boat mates from 'nam are demanding that he disclose the truth about his record there and that he cease and desist using their images in his campaign literature: http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php Could it really be that Bush is the secret hero and Kerry is the duplicitous self-serving traitor? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From john at aculink.net Sun Aug 1 05:57:16 2004 From: john at aculink.net (John M) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 22:57:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <200407300505.i6U55Oj01585@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <200408010555.i715tOj20619@tick.javien.com> Ok, that had a much larger response than I expected! All my invites have now been passed out. If anyone I sent an invite to gets invites to give away, I'd appreciate returning the favor and letting the list know; there were a couple of requests I had to turn down as I ran out. > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John M > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:05 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > If anybody else needs an invite, e-mail me; I've got a half-dozen or so I > could part with. Not all to one person, though; don't be greedy :). > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:43 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > > > I just invited you. > > G. > > > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:16:03 +0000, artillo at comcast.net > > wrote: > > > I applied for a beta gmail account myself, I didn't get any invites > > though and haven't heard anything yet. > > > > > > Artillo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail account, > have > > > > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more account > > > > (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far (which I thought > > > > were supposed to turn up periodically). Does anyone know how this > > > > works? Have google stopped handing out invites? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Emlyn > > > > > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Aug 1 06:25:24 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 23:25:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed References: <20040801045902.39863.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0c0201c47790$54d4e190$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Mike Lorrey" http://us.gq.com/features/general/articles/040727feco_02 > This article is hilarious. It is interesting that it's coming out at > the same time that John Kerry's Swift Boat mates from 'nam are > demanding that he disclose the truth about his record there and that he > cease and desist using their images in his campaign literature: > > http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php > > Could it really be that Bush is the secret hero and Kerry is the > duplicitous self-serving traitor? Hmmm, I dunno, Mike. What do you think? And since you brought it up ... *talk about disclosing the truth*: http://home.earthlink.net/~mojo-hand/GeorgeBushResume.html Olga From megao at sasktel.net Sun Aug 1 05:52:38 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 00:52:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invitee thanks you References: <200408010555.i715tOj20619@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <410C8524.78B9FF69@sasktel.net> Thanks immensely for the invite. I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail and redoing my website and blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of documents I might or might not need and saves getting a laptop for the road. Morris Johnson John M wrote: > Ok, that had a much larger response than I expected! All my invites have > now been passed out. If anyone I sent an invite to gets invites to give > away, I'd appreciate returning the favor and letting the list know; there > were a couple of requests I had to turn down as I ran out. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John M > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:05 PM > > To: 'ExI chat list' > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > > > If anybody else needs an invite, e-mail me; I've got a half-dozen or so I > > could part with. Not all to one person, though; don't be greedy :). > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:43 AM > > > To: ExI chat list > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > > > > > I just invited you. > > > G. > > > > > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:16:03 +0000, artillo at comcast.net > > > wrote: > > > > I applied for a beta gmail account myself, I didn't get any invites > > > though and haven't heard anything yet. > > > > > > > > Artillo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail account, > > have > > > > > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more account > > > > > (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far (which I thought > > > > > were supposed to turn up periodically). Does anyone know how this > > > > > works? Have google stopped handing out invites? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Emlyn > > > > > > > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Sun Aug 1 06:02:47 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 01:02:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> <410C1E8B.8C5AAC62@sasktel.net> <410C31C9.80100@cox.net> <410C3300.6070307@barrera.org> Message-ID: <410C8775.63ADFC59@sasktel.net> I did a spywear check and I have 6 pieces documented. I tried to dump 2 manually without luck. Those attached to my tax programs , I left in case they are parts of the program. One nagging thing is when I do a norton defrag and shut everything down manually , except my basic explorer, I still get ( 3/4 of the time) a background program that interferes with the start up recognition of my drives. On my last viruscheck I was clean except one in my dialer. "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > > The more interesting question is: what program is doing the > > re-direct. It sounds like you may have hostile spyware on your > > system. > > That would be my bet. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 1 08:18:38 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 09:18:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <410C8775.63ADFC59@sasktel.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> <410C1E8B.8C5AAC62@sasktel.net> <410C31C9.80100@cox.net> <410C3300.6070307@barrera.org> <410C8775.63ADFC59@sasktel.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 01:02:47 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > I did a spywear check and I have 6 pieces documented. I tried to dump 2 > manually without luck. Those attached to my tax programs , I left in > case they are parts of the program. One nagging thing is when I do a > norton defrag and shut everything down > manually , except my basic explorer, I still get ( 3/4 of the time) a > background program that interferes with the start up recognition of my > drives. > On my last viruscheck I was clean except one in my dialer. > If you insist on using Internet Explorer you will get malware dumped on your pc every time you go browsing. Yes, it is that insecure. SpyBot Search & Destroy and Ad-aware will scan and delete most malware. I have found that sometimes you need to run them twice on heavily infected pcs to completely clean them. Running a couple of registry cleaners afterwards, as well, will also improve matters. Best wishes, BillK From eugen at leitl.org Sun Aug 1 08:33:42 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 10:33:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <410C8775.63ADFC59@sasktel.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040728125955.01ca5968@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000701c47753$c7f241f0$6101a8c0@main> <410C1E8B.8C5AAC62@sasktel.net> <410C31C9.80100@cox.net> <410C3300.6070307@barrera.org> <410C8775.63ADFC59@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20040801083341.GX1174@leitl.org> On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 01:02:47AM -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > On my last viruscheck I was clean except one in my dialer. Get a Mac. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Aug 1 09:37:35 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 11:37:35 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invitee thanks you In-Reply-To: <410C8524.78B9FF69@sasktel.net> References: <200408010555.i715tOj20619@tick.javien.com> <410C8524.78B9FF69@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20040801093735.GA1174@leitl.org> On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 12:52:38AM -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > Thanks immensely for the invite. > I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail and redoing my website and Do you realize the service is beta, and makes no guarantee on availability and data integrity? I wouldn't use Gmail for anything business critical. > blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of documents I might or might not > need and saves getting a laptop for the road. A laptop is a useful thing to have. Given that Windows systems are giving you issues, consider getting an iBook (.Mac and VirtualPC and Bluetooth/WiFi might be worthwhile options for you, also I would get a 512 MB memory extension). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From megao at sasktel.net Sun Aug 1 14:46:16 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 09:46:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail uses References: <200408010555.i715tOj20619@tick.javien.com> <410C8524.78B9FF69@sasktel.net> <20040801093735.GA1174@leitl.org> Message-ID: <410D0238.BC23DC09@sasktel.net> I'm treating gmail like a briefcase, you unload the new documents back home. The advantage is that you can travel heavier. As well hardware theft is not a concern. I think I'll treat it like a lotus notes environment. I have several parners and I will see how it works to have all of us access this common email and document platform. The big thing will be to see how well the spam is controlled. Lately, our ISP has put in a system that catches 95% of spam and mistakes perhaps 1% of legitimate mail as spam. Yes , my first machine was a Zenith 40 meg laptop which I used mostly like a desktop. Yes new machines, the home one with 2 or 3 drives and operating systems similarly and a sturdy little very mobile , roadwarrier laptop are in the plans. google might add features and likely won't just drop everything without lots of warning. Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 12:52:38AM -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > > > Thanks immensely for the invite. > > I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail and redoing my website and > > Do you realize the service is beta, and makes no guarantee on availability > and data integrity? I wouldn't use Gmail for anything business critical. > > > blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of documents I might or might not > > need and saves getting a laptop for the road. > > A laptop is a useful thing to have. Given that Windows systems are giving you > issues, consider getting an iBook (.Mac and VirtualPC and Bluetooth/WiFi might be > worthwhile options for you, also I would get a 512 MB memory extension). > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Part 1.1.2Type: application/pgp-signature > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From artillo at comcast.net Sun Aug 1 19:23:38 2004 From: artillo at comcast.net (Brian Shores) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:23:38 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail uses In-Reply-To: <410D0238.BC23DC09@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <001801c477fd$1250c150$49635544@bjsmain2> That's pretty much what I am using my gmail for, too (Thanks again, Giu1i0!). I am an internet DJ on the weekends again and I am using it to shuffle MP3's, graphics, and website files to and fro, while also keeping an up-to-date copy of my most often used documents in a subfolder in gmail. Arti PS - tune in to our station sometime! www.fusedradio.com (you will need Winamp or Media Player, or stream directly into a plot of land in Second Life). My first show with them will be this Sunday night 10pm-Midnight EST. Artillo's Heavy Metal Hoedown is back!!! :D -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 10:46 AM To: ExI chat list; cattlelack at sasktel.net; r.mwick at sasktel.net; buffalom at mts.net Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gmail uses I'm treating gmail like a briefcase, you unload the new documents back home. The advantage is that you can travel heavier. As well hardware theft is not a concern. I think I'll treat it like a lotus notes environment. I have several parners and I will see how it works to have all of us access this common email and document platform. The big thing will be to see how well the spam is controlled. Lately, our ISP has put in a system that catches 95% of spam and mistakes perhaps 1% of legitimate mail as spam. Yes , my first machine was a Zenith 40 meg laptop which I used mostly like a desktop. Yes new machines, the home one with 2 or 3 drives and operating systems similarly and a sturdy little very mobile , roadwarrier laptop are in the plans. google might add features and likely won't just drop everything without lots of warning. Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Aug 01, 2004 at 12:52:38AM -0500, Extropian Agroforestry > Ventures Inc. wrote: > > > Thanks immensely for the invite. > > I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail and redoing my > > website and > > Do you realize the service is beta, and makes no guarantee on > availability and data integrity? I wouldn't use Gmail for anything > business critical. > > > blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of documents I might or > > might not need and saves getting a laptop for the road. > > A laptop is a useful thing to have. Given that Windows systems are > giving you issues, consider getting an iBook (.Mac and VirtualPC and > Bluetooth/WiFi might be worthwhile options for you, also I would get a > 512 MB memory extension). > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Part 1.1.2Type: application/pgp-signature > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From artillo at comcast.net Sun Aug 1 19:29:55 2004 From: artillo at comcast.net (Brian Shores) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:29:55 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <200408010555.i715tOj20619@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <001901c477fd$f2ee9610$49635544@bjsmain2> How does one go about getting invites to hand out to friends?? Arti -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John M Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 1:57 AM To: 'ExI chat list' Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? Ok, that had a much larger response than I expected! All my invites have now been passed out. If anyone I sent an invite to gets invites to give away, I'd appreciate returning the favor and letting the list know; there were a couple of requests I had to turn down as I ran out. > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John M > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:05 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > If anybody else needs an invite, e-mail me; I've got a half-dozen or > so I could part with. Not all to one person, though; don't be greedy > :). > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:43 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > > > I just invited you. > > G. > > > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:16:03 +0000, artillo at comcast.net > > wrote: > > > I applied for a beta gmail account myself, I didn't get any > > > invites > > though and haven't heard anything yet. > > > > > > Artillo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail > > > > account, > have > > > > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more > > > > account (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far > > > > (which I thought were supposed to turn up periodically). Does > > > > anyone know how this works? Have google stopped handing out > > > > invites? > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Emlyn > > > > > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Aug 1 21:28:56 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 01 Aug 2004 14:28:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Art and Space Science at UC Berkeley Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040801142512.01d9b620@mail.earthlink.net> Greetings! This message has some funky commands, which I tried to clean up for you all, but the content is worth reading. Create! Natasha >Call for proposals for artist in residence at the University of California, >Berkeley, Space Sciences Laboratory. > >Deadline Sept 30 2004 > >Leonardo and the Leonardo Space Arts Working Group are please to announce >this following collaboration and opportunity: > >Art and Space Science at UC Berkeley > >The Interdisciplinary Arts Department at Arts Council England, the Space >Sciences Laboratory at UC Berkeley and the Leonardo network are pleased to >announce this unique opportunity available to artists working in any art >form. One individual will be selected to spend up to 7 months at the Space >Science Laboratory, starting between January and February 2005. Working >alongside scientists and educators, the successful applicant will have the >opportunity to build their professional career through a sustained period of >research and experimentation. > >This Fellowship offers specialist support and funds for practice-based >research, accommodation, food, travel and a small stipend while at UC >Berkeley Space Sciences Laboratory. The Arts Council=B9s International >Artists=B9 Fellowship Programme is open to artists working in any art form >with significant professional experience who are living and working in >England only. Recent graduates are not eligible. Selection will be by >competitive application. This initiative is funded by the Interdisciplinary >Arts Department through the Arts Council=B9s International Artists Fellowsh= >ip >Programme and the Space Sciences Laboratory at UC Berkeley with support from >NASA and the Leonardo network. > >The application form and further information are available on the Space >Sciences Laboratory (SSL) website via http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/spaceart >Please note that application forms are only available from the SSL website. >Closing date for applications: 30 September 2004 > >Arts Council England is England's development agency for the arts. Between >2003 and 2006, Arts Council England will invest 32 billion of public funds >in the arts in England, including funding from the National Lottery. > >Arts Council England supports talent from every sector of the artistic >society. We are totally committed to equality and diversity and to ensuring >that people throughout the country can participate in and experience the >highest quality arts activities. Applications are sought from artists of ALL >racial and ethnic backgrounds, including from underrepresented groups. > >For further information see http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/spaceart > >For information about the Leonardo Space Arts Working Group >http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-journals/Leonardo/spaceart/spaceartproject.html > >NEW ADDRESS! Please note our new contact information as of May 1, 2004: > >Leonardo/ISAST >211 Sutter Street, Suite 800 >San Francisco, CA 94108 >phone: (415) 391-1110 >fax: (415) 391-2385 >Email: mklayman at leonardo.info >Web: http://www.leonardo.info > > >Promote your programs or exhibitions to your peers in art, science, and >technology with Leonardo and Leonardo Music Journal. For rates and deadlines >for display advertisements, contact the MIT Press Journals Department at >journals-info at mit.edu. > > > >To: Leonardo Network >From: Roger Malina > >Call for proposals for artist in residence at the University of >California, Berkeley, Space Sciences Laboratory. > >Deadline Sept 30 2004 > > >Leonardo and the Leonardo Space Arts Working Group are please to announce >t= his following collaboration and opportunity: > >Art and Space Science at UC Berkeley > >The Interdisciplinary Arts Department at Arts Council England, the Space >Sciences Laboratory at UC Berkeley and the Leonardo network are pleased to >announce this unique opportunity available to artists working in any art >form . One individual will be selected to spend up to 7 months at the >Space Science Laboratory, starting between January and February 2005. >Working alongside scientists and educators, the successful applicant will >have the opportu= nity to build their professional career through a >sustained period of research and experimentation. > >This Fellowship offers specialist support and funds for practice-based >research, accommodation, food, travel and a small stipend while at UC >Berkeley Space Sciences Laboratory. The Arts Councils International >Artists; Fellowship Programme is open to artists working in any art form >with significant professional experience who are living and working in >Englan= d only. Recent graduates are not eligible. Selection will be by >competi tive application. This initiative is funded by the >Interdisciplinary Arts Department through the Arts Councils International >Artists Fellowship Programme and the Space Sciences Laboratory at UC >Berkeley with support from NASA and the Leonardo network. > >The application form and further information are available on the Space >Sciences Laboratory (SSL) website via ><3d.htm>http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/spaceart Please note that >application forms are only available from the SSL website. Closing date f= >or applications: 30 September 2004 > >Arts Council England is England's development agency for the arts. Between >= 2003 and 2006, Arts Council England will invest ?2 billion of public = >funds in the arts in England, including funding from the National Lottery. >Arts Council England supports talent from every sector of the artistic >soci= ety. We are totally committed to equality and diversity and to >ensuring tha= t people throughout the country can participate in and >experience the highe= st quality arts activities. Applications are sought >from artists of ALL rac= ial and ethnic backgrounds, including from >underrepresented groups. > >For further information see <3d.htm>http://www.artscouncil.org.uk/spaceart > >For information about the Leonardo Space Arts Working Group ><3d.htm>http://mitpress2.mit.edu/e-journals/Leonardo/spaceart/spaceartp= >roject.html > >-- >NEW ADDRESS! Please note our new contact information as of May 1, 2004: > >Leonardo/ISAST >211 Sutter Street, Suite 800 >San Francisco, CA 94108 >phone: (415) 391-1110 >fax: (415) 391-2385 >Email: mklayman at leonardo.info >Web: <3d.htm>http://www.leonardo.info > > >Promote your programs or exhibitions to your peers in art, science, and >technology with Leonardo and Leonardo Music Journal. For rates and >deadlines for display advertisements, contact the MIT Press Journals >Department at journals-info at mit.edu. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From john at aculink.net Sun Aug 1 20:30:48 2004 From: john at aculink.net (John M) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 13:30:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? In-Reply-To: <001901c477fd$f2ee9610$49635544@bjsmain2> Message-ID: <200408012028.i71KSlj15273@tick.javien.com> When I created my account there was a link on the bottom-left telling me I had 10 accounts to give away (though I created a 2nd account, and it didn't have the free giveaways). I've also heard that they periodically give you more invites to pass out. > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brian Shores > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 12:30 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > How does one go about getting invites to hand out to friends?? > > Arti > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John M > Sent: Sunday, August 01, 2004 1:57 AM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > > Ok, that had a much larger response than I expected! All my invites > have now been passed out. If anyone I sent an invite to gets invites to > give away, I'd appreciate returning the favor and letting the list know; > there were a couple of requests I had to turn down as I ran out. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John M > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:05 PM > > To: 'ExI chat list' > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > > > If anybody else needs an invite, e-mail me; I've got a half-dozen or > > so I could part with. Not all to one person, though; don't be greedy > > :). > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > > Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 2:43 AM > > > To: ExI chat list > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gmail invites? > > > > > > I just invited you. > > > G. > > > > > > On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 14:16:03 +0000, artillo at comcast.net > > > wrote: > > > > I applied for a beta gmail account myself, I didn't get any > > > > invites > > > though and haven't heard anything yet. > > > > > > > > Artillo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks to a not so anonymous extropian, I've got a gmail > > > > > account, > > have > > > > > had for a few weeks. Well, I'm gagging for at least one more > > > > > account (for my wife), but I haven't had any invites so far > > > > > (which I thought were supposed to turn up periodically). Does > > > > > anyone know how this works? Have google stopped handing out > > > > > invites? > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Emlyn > > > > > > > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From twodeel at jornada.org Sun Aug 1 22:11:53 2004 From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 15:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <20040801045902.39863.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jul 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Could it really be that Bush is the secret hero and Kerry is the > duplicitous self-serving traitor? No. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 2 01:49:28 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2004 18:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] META: List Spam In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040731135334.035133e0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040802014928.31171.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com> --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Looks like the list is getting a bit this week. > Here is a suggestion. List the email address of the list on the website as extropy-chatlists.extropy.org If anyone reading can't figure it out, they probably aren't smart enough to be worth having on the list. And it should confuse the agents that spammers have scavenging email addresses off of every inch of webspace. It will probably work until the spammers figure out how to make their webcrawlers parse it to an actual email address. Sure the newbies will have to manually type it into their address books (or cut-edit-paste) but hey the list is free and it isn't that much work anyways. Hope that helps. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Aug 2 08:03:35 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (thespike at satx.rr.com) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 09:03:35 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Damien and Barbara in London Message-ID: <67c4c067a29b.67a29b67c4c0@texas.rr.com> Barbara Lamar and I are visiting the UK briefly (I'm guest of honor at an academic convention about Comonwealth science fiction in Liverpool starting the 5th) and we're in London for a few days. Any Londonish extropes should feel encouraged to say hi (offlist, please), and maybe we can get together if there's time. We're staying in the London Bridge area. Damien Broderick From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Aug 2 18:47:39 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:47:39 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: <20040728165538.28632.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040728165538.28632.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6E192D79-E4B4-11D8-8438-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Not to beat a dead thread, but - I had a room mate once, who was incredibly neat and well organized. Yes, some people would call him a "neat-freak" or even "super-anal-retentive" This wasn't an Odd Couple scenario, with me being a slob, but I wasn't as highly structured. From time to time we made each other crazy. So my question is : Who was right? I heard of an academic expert speaking on Isalm, of course talking the sense of it being a religion of peace and the like. The quote that stuck with me, was something along the lines of the "problem" is radical interpretations of Islamic law, and that most of history involving Islam revolves around a small minority. I tend to keep with the old "Your right to throw a punch ends at my face" Heinleinian angle. But if we have a group that wants to create "the perfect Islamic nation-state", and are constantly looking to increase their square-footage, are we not having an ideological conflict? I think that blaming partisan politics, soviet-era US backing, coddling Israel, and all other catch phrases, are failing to acknowledge the fact that this does seem to be an ideological problem...? On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:55 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >> But to now posit an >> ideological war as being largely the "why" of >> terrorism and hardly >> bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger >> throughout the region >> says that this Commission was a political puppet of >> the current >> adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. > > Oh, they mention the policies. That's part of the > source of the ideological war. But whatever the > cause, the result is still the result - and merely > removing the cause won't necessarily fix everything > (even if it would help a lot). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 00:06:25 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invitee thanks you In-Reply-To: <410C8524.78B9FF69@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20040803000625.33218.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > Thanks immensely for the invite. > I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail > and redoing my website and > blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of > documents I might or might not > need and saves getting a laptop for the road. This is why I turned down the invite I got: I've already got an email service that does this. And should that prove non-viable, I've got my own Web server on which I can host whatever documents I want for as long as I want, and anyone who knows the URL can get 'em (which can be a good thing, so long as one treats this as no more secure than a password: it leaks or it doesn't, depending on who knows it and how it's transmitted and stored). Although...might it not also work to store the docs on a USB keychain hard drive? They seem to have More Than Enough capacity for this application these days. (I've seen ones offered with 2 GB, smaller than a mid-sized swiss army knife.) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 01:13:40 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 10:43:40 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invitee thanks you In-Reply-To: <20040803000625.33218.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040803000625.33218.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04080218134488967e@mail.gmail.com> I'm using mine as a knowledge base; an online store of everything interesting that I want to remember. It works for this because it's web based (with an eminently usable front end and a half decent search engine :-) ), it's got huge capacity for web based email, and it's not attached to a workplace; rather, it's provided by a pretty big ompany that's unlikely to go away any time soon. The only worisome aspect is that it is in beta, so could be pulled. FWIW, I hardly ever use it for shipping attachments around, I find it's pretty crap at this (fairly small ceiling on attachments, not sure what that is), and I don't want to fill my quota. As it is, I pour high volume mailing lists into it and never delete anything, so I hope the 1 gig limit is grown over time :-) I know some people get stressed about google having all their private email, but really, "private email"? What an oxymoron! Emlyn On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." > wrote: > > Thanks immensely for the invite. > > I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail > > and redoing my website and > > blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of > > documents I might or might not > > need and saves getting a laptop for the road. > > This is why I turned down the invite I got: I've > already got an email service that does this. And > should that prove non-viable, I've got my own Web > server on which I can host whatever documents I want > for as long as I want, and anyone who knows the URL > can get 'em (which can be a good thing, so long as > one treats this as no more secure than a password: it > leaks or it doesn't, depending on who knows it and how > it's transmitted and stored). > > Although...might it not also work to store the docs > on a USB keychain hard drive? They seem to have More > Than Enough capacity for this application these days. > (I've seen ones offered with 2 GB, smaller than a > mid-sized swiss army knife.) > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From megao at sasktel.net Tue Aug 3 01:27:17 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:27:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invitee thanks you References: <20040803000625.33218.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc04080218134488967e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <410EE9F4.DE266D5F@sasktel.net> I have about 16 megs of attachments to date and everything seems to work. The main list screen won't resize the individual mail headers and there is no indication that the search engine can drill down into say a pdf to search for text within an attachment. It would be nice if they docs opened/converted to open remotely without downloading. But maybe that is part of what a full commercial service might offer? Morris mfj.eavgmail.com Emlyn wrote: > I'm using mine as a knowledge base; an online store of everything > interesting that I want to remember. It works for this because it's > web based (with an eminently usable front end and a half decent search > engine :-) ), it's got huge capacity for web based email, and it's not > attached to a workplace; rather, it's provided by a pretty big ompany > that's unlikely to go away any time soon. The only worisome aspect is > that it is in beta, so could be pulled. > > FWIW, I hardly ever use it for shipping attachments around, I find > it's pretty crap at this (fairly small ceiling on attachments, not > sure what that is), and I don't want to fill my quota. As it is, I > pour high volume mailing lists into it and never delete anything, so I > hope the 1 gig limit is grown over time :-) > > I know some people get stressed about google having all their private > email, but really, "private email"? What an oxymoron! > > Emlyn > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes > wrote: > > --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." > > wrote: > > > Thanks immensely for the invite. > > > I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail > > > and redoing my website and > > > blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of > > > documents I might or might not > > > need and saves getting a laptop for the road. > > > > This is why I turned down the invite I got: I've > > already got an email service that does this. And > > should that prove non-viable, I've got my own Web > > server on which I can host whatever documents I want > > for as long as I want, and anyone who knows the URL > > can get 'em (which can be a good thing, so long as > > one treats this as no more secure than a password: it > > leaks or it doesn't, depending on who knows it and how > > it's transmitted and stored). > > > > Although...might it not also work to store the docs > > on a USB keychain hard drive? They seem to have More > > Than Enough capacity for this application these days. > > (I've seen ones offered with 2 GB, smaller than a > > mid-sized swiss army knife.) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 03:02:03 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:32:03 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invitee thanks you In-Reply-To: <410EE9F4.DE266D5F@sasktel.net> References: <20040803000625.33218.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc04080218134488967e@mail.gmail.com> <410EE9F4.DE266D5F@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc040802200240559d9e@mail.gmail.com> I'd say so, it's early days... many things are bare bones (eg: you can't save a draft of a message!) On Mon, 02 Aug 2004 20:27:17 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > I have about 16 megs of attachments to date and everything seems to work. > > The main list screen won't resize the individual mail headers and there > is no indication that the search engine can drill down into say a pdf to > search for text within an attachment. > It would be nice if they docs opened/converted to open remotely without > downloading. > > But maybe that is part of what a full commercial service might offer? > > Morris > mfj.eavgmail.com > > > > Emlyn wrote: > > > I'm using mine as a knowledge base; an online store of everything > > interesting that I want to remember. It works for this because it's > > web based (with an eminently usable front end and a half decent search > > engine :-) ), it's got huge capacity for web based email, and it's not > > attached to a workplace; rather, it's provided by a pretty big ompany > > that's unlikely to go away any time soon. The only worisome aspect is > > that it is in beta, so could be pulled. > > > > FWIW, I hardly ever use it for shipping attachments around, I find > > it's pretty crap at this (fairly small ceiling on attachments, not > > sure what that is), and I don't want to fill my quota. As it is, I > > pour high volume mailing lists into it and never delete anything, so I > > hope the 1 gig limit is grown over time :-) > > > > I know some people get stressed about google having all their private > > email, but really, "private email"? What an oxymoron! > > > > Emlyn > > > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 17:06:25 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes > > wrote: > > > --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." > > > wrote: > > > > Thanks immensely for the invite. > > > > I've been loading a mobile office platform on gmail > > > > and redoing my website and > > > > blog in tandem. Saves lugging a briefcase of > > > > documents I might or might not > > > > need and saves getting a laptop for the road. > > > > > > This is why I turned down the invite I got: I've > > > already got an email service that does this. And > > > should that prove non-viable, I've got my own Web > > > server on which I can host whatever documents I want > > > for as long as I want, and anyone who knows the URL > > > can get 'em (which can be a good thing, so long as > > > one treats this as no more secure than a password: it > > > leaks or it doesn't, depending on who knows it and how > > > it's transmitted and stored). > > > > > > Although...might it not also work to store the docs > > > on a USB keychain hard drive? They seem to have More > > > Than Enough capacity for this application these days. > > > (I've seen ones offered with 2 GB, smaller than a > > > mid-sized swiss army knife.) > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > -- > > Emlyn > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 06:48:31 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 07:48:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] gmail invitee thanks you In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040802200240559d9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040803000625.33218.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc04080218134488967e@mail.gmail.com> <410EE9F4.DE266D5F@sasktel.net> <710b78fc040802200240559d9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 12:32:03 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > I'd say so, it's early days... many things are bare bones (eg: you > can't save a draft of a message!) > They welcome suggestions for improvements. I've made several myself. They recently added address book import. Save to draft is on their to-do list. I'd like more than 20 filters, personnally. An individual message can be up to 10MB in size (including all attachments). BillK From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 12:53:38 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:23:38 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! Message-ID: <710b78fc04080305537dd4c382@mail.gmail.com> Shameless plug! Does anyone remember the Daleks? Check out the newest track from The Land Canaan, called "Exterminate", on my website (emlynoregan.com). If you ever wanted to be Davros, this will inspire you! Also have a listen to a draft track more in the old The Land Canaan style, "Dido's Lament". Both tracks are on the front page. My website performs woefully for downloads, so please be patient. If anyone knows a decent place to host original mp3s, I'd love some advice. Also, I think it goes without saying that the track is free (beer), otherwise I wouldn't put it on my website, ey? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From bret at bonfireproductions.com Tue Aug 3 13:27:22 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 09:27:22 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: <6E192D79-E4B4-11D8-8438-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> References: <20040728165538.28632.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> <6E192D79-E4B4-11D8-8438-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: Just talking to someone voice - Yes, this is nth degree simplification. But I find for the purpose of dialog or rules-sets, simplicity is the key. On Aug 2, 2004, at 2:47 PM, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > Not to beat a dead thread, but - > > I had a room mate once, who was incredibly neat and well organized. > Yes, some people would call him a "neat-freak" or even > "super-anal-retentive" This wasn't an Odd Couple scenario, with me > being a slob, but I wasn't as highly structured. From time to time we > made each other crazy. > > So my question is : Who was right? > > I heard of an academic expert speaking on Isalm, of course talking the > sense of it being a religion of peace and the like. The quote that > stuck with me, was something along the lines of the "problem" is > radical interpretations of Islamic law, and that most of history > involving Islam revolves around a small minority. > > I tend to keep with the old "Your right to throw a punch ends at my > face" Heinleinian angle. > > But if we have a group that wants to create "the perfect Islamic > nation-state", and are constantly looking to increase their > square-footage, are we not having an ideological conflict? I think > that blaming partisan politics, soviet-era US backing, coddling > Israel, and all other catch phrases, are failing to acknowledge the > fact that this does seem to be an ideological problem...? > From amara at amara.com Tue Aug 3 17:56:18 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 18:56:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] book: Promethean Ambitions by William R. Newman Message-ID: Yesterday, in the International Herald Tribune (and the New York Times) an interesting book review appeared: Promethean Ambitions: Alchemy and the Quest to Perfect Nature by William R. Newman Reviewed by Edward Rothstein NYT http://www.iht.com/articles/532091.html The following phrases in the Review especially caught my attention: --------------- {beginning quote} Even more temperate interpreters of science, though, have been changing their ideas about alchemy. Historians now treat the enterprise less as a naive activity supplanted by science than as an intellectual discipline out of which science gradually evolved. In "Promethean Ambitions," William R. Newman, who teaches the history and philosophy of science at Indiana University, goes even further. For him, alchemy, from its ancient origins as a servant to the decorative arts to its 17th-century transmutation into modern chemistry, provided the crucible in which many contemporary ideas about nature and artifice were first examined. Today, he writes, "we live in the era of 'Frankenfoods,' cloning, in vitro fertilization, synthetic polymers, Artificial Intelligence, and computer generated 'Artificial Life,'" an era in which Pope John Paul II has warned of the "Promethean ambitions" of biomedical science, and the President's Council on Bioethics has studied Hawthorne's alchemical story, "The Birth-Mark." But Newman argues that most current debates about boundaries between nature and artifice, or boundaries between proper and improper scientific exploration, echo debates that run through the history of alchemy. Critics of alchemy argued that the natural world could not be replicated or improved and that such goals should not be pursued. Advocates found porous boundaries between nature and artifice that could be explored and tested. In Newman's view, this tension between nature and artifice is fundamental. Alchemy is primarily an art of transmutation: One metal is turned into another, one living creature erupts out of the substance of another. Alchemy is concerned with the character of that change. It thus pays attention to categories, differences and boundaries. If one substance is changed into another, does it change its essence or only some of its properties? Is nature being revealed or overturned? {end quote} --------------- Alchemy is a topic that has intrigued me for some time, and I talked about it in my article last year: http://transhumanism.com/index.php/weblog/more/eternal-city-grapsody-5-parmigianinos-golden-transformations/ Eternal City Grapsody #5 - Parmigianino's Golden Transformations Historians who study European and Eastern medieval life often encounter two interpretations of the 'art' of alchemy. The methods of concentration, distillation, maturing, and mixing could be considered as a physical chemistry exercise or as human psychological transformation, that is, a disguised form of a spiritual quest. What confuses the two interpretations is that one of the origins of alchemy- the Sufis, did indeed work in laboratories performing real alchemy experiments. The Sufi student is given an undertaking that may not seem scientific by contemporary standards, and for the purposes of their self-development, one must carry it out with complete faith. In the process of planning and carrying through this effort, one attains one's spiritual development. Even though the alchemical or other undertaking might be impossible, it is the framework within which one's mental and moral development is carried out. It is something like the perspective that competitive sport or scholastic undertakings are performed; that is, the mountain or the PhD or the muscular development are the fixed points, but they are not the element which is actually being transformed by the effort. For the Sufis, in the larger context of humanity, the physical and spiritual process of alchemy is the regeneration of an essential part of humanity, called "the Philosopher's Stone", an essence (inside each man), which is thought to uplift humanity to the next stage. The function of the Philosopher's Stone is as a universal medicine and a source of longevity. The interesting fact about this stone is that the stone or elixir is a state of mind. The elements to produce the Stone (the essence) are sulphur (kibrit, homonym of kibirat, "greatness, nobility"), salt (milh, homonym of milh, "goodness, learning"), and mercury (zibaq, "to open a lock, to break"). --------------- I have not read _Promethean Ambitions_ so I don't know how far the author takes alchemy, but he might be thinking in similar ways based on this phrase in the International Herald Tribune review: "There is more information gathered by Newman than the casual reader can easily absorb, including difficult analyses of philosophical and religious arguments taking place over centuries in Latin, Greek and Arabic. But Newman, a clear and graceful writer, keeps his goal in view. He is an initiate - tapping, testing and transmuting - until something different, still called alchemy, gradually takes shape." This book will go into my reading queue! Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From mike99 at lascruces.com Tue Aug 3 21:53:53 2004 From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99) Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 15:53:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: book: Promethean Ambitions by William R. Newman Message-ID: Amara, Another version of the alchemical quest for self-transformation is found in the so-called Fourth Way teachings of G. I. Gurdjieff and similar teachers. Gurdjieff had a rather elaborate system (as described in his student P.D. Ouspenky's book "In Search of the Miraculous"). His belief was that physiological and biochemical changes took place within individuals who "worked on themselves" to advance to a higher level of functional existence. Supposedly, bodily substances were transmuted in a step-wise fashion, where the output of one step became the input substance for the next. But if one did not know how to properly conduct this process, one could not advance very far. Unfortunately, much of the Gurdjieffian system is a closely guarded secret. In order to test it, one would have to "buy into" the group-think of the Gurdjieff Institute. And by going that far, one would probably lose the objectivity necessary in order to test this theory scientifically. It's probably a moot point, anyway. Transhumanism is very likely to take us beyond anywhere that Gurdjieff and his followers could even imagine. Regards, Michael LaTorra mike99 at lascruces.com mlatorra at nmsu.edu "For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes towards slavery." -- Jacob Bronowski "Experiences only look special from the inside of the system." -- Eugen Leitl Member: Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org Society for Technical Communication: www.stc.org > -----Original Message----- > From: wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org > [mailto:wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 11:56 AM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org; wta-talk at transhumanism.org > Subject: [wta-talk] book: Promethean Ambitions by William R. Newman > > > > > Yesterday, in the International Herald Tribune (and the New York Times) > an interesting book review appeared: > > > Promethean Ambitions: > Alchemy and the Quest to Perfect Nature by William R. Newman > Reviewed by Edward Rothstein NYT > > > http://www.iht.com/articles/532091.html > > The following phrases in the Review especially caught my attention: > > > --------------- > > {beginning quote} > > Even more temperate interpreters of science, though, have been > changing their ideas about alchemy. Historians now treat the > enterprise less as a naive activity supplanted by science than as an > intellectual discipline out of which science gradually evolved. In > "Promethean Ambitions," William R. Newman, who teaches the history and > philosophy of science at Indiana University, goes even further. > > For him, alchemy, from its ancient origins as a servant to the > decorative arts to its 17th-century transmutation into modern > chemistry, provided the crucible in which many contemporary ideas > about nature and artifice were first examined. > > Today, he writes, "we live in the era of 'Frankenfoods,' cloning, in > vitro fertilization, synthetic polymers, Artificial Intelligence, and > computer generated 'Artificial Life,'" an era in which Pope John Paul > II has warned of the "Promethean ambitions" of biomedical science, and > the President's Council on Bioethics has studied Hawthorne's > alchemical story, "The Birth-Mark." > > But Newman argues that most current debates about boundaries between > nature and artifice, or boundaries between proper and improper > scientific exploration, echo debates that run through the history of > alchemy. Critics of alchemy argued that the natural world could not be > replicated or improved and that such goals should not be pursued. > Advocates found porous boundaries between nature and artifice that > could be explored and tested. > > In Newman's view, this tension between nature and artifice is > fundamental. Alchemy is primarily an art of transmutation: One metal > is turned into another, one living creature erupts out of the > substance of another. Alchemy is concerned with the character of that > change. It thus pays attention to categories, differences and > boundaries. If one substance is changed into another, does it change > its essence or only some of its properties? Is nature being revealed > or overturned? > > {end quote} > --------------- > > Alchemy is a topic that has intrigued me for some time, and I talked > about it in my article last year: > > http://transhumanism.com/index.php/weblog/more/eternal-city-grapso > dy-5-parmigianinos-golden-transformations/ > > Eternal City Grapsody #5 - Parmigianino's Golden Transformations > > > Historians who study European and Eastern medieval life often > encounter two interpretations of the 'art' of alchemy. The methods of > concentration, distillation, maturing, and mixing could be considered > as a physical chemistry exercise or as human psychological > transformation, that is, a disguised form of a spiritual quest. What > confuses the two interpretations is that one of the origins of > alchemy- the Sufis, did indeed work in laboratories performing real > alchemy experiments. > > The Sufi student is given an undertaking that may not seem scientific > by contemporary standards, and for the purposes of their > self-development, one must carry it out with complete faith. In the > process of planning and carrying through this effort, one attains > one's spiritual development. Even though the alchemical or other > undertaking might be impossible, it is the framework within which > one's mental and moral development is carried out. It is something > like the perspective that competitive sport or scholastic undertakings > are performed; that is, the mountain or the PhD or the muscular > development are the fixed points, but they are not the element which > is actually being transformed by the effort. > > For the Sufis, in the larger context of humanity, the physical and > spiritual process of alchemy is the regeneration of an essential part > of humanity, called "the Philosopher's Stone", an essence (inside each > man), which is thought to uplift humanity to the next stage. The > function of the Philosopher's Stone is as a universal medicine and a > source of longevity. The interesting fact about this stone is that the > stone or elixir is a state of mind. The elements to produce the Stone > (the essence) are sulphur (kibrit, homonym of kibirat, "greatness, > nobility"), salt (milh, homonym of milh, "goodness, learning"), and > mercury (zibaq, "to open a lock, to break"). > > --------------- > > I have not read _Promethean Ambitions_ so I don't know how far > the author takes alchemy, but he might be thinking in similar > ways based on this phrase in the International Herald Tribune review: > > "There is more information gathered by Newman than the casual reader > can easily absorb, including difficult analyses of philosophical and > religious arguments taking place over centuries in Latin, Greek and > Arabic. But Newman, a clear and graceful writer, keeps his goal in > view. He is an initiate - tapping, testing and transmuting - until > something different, still called alchemy, gradually takes shape." > > This book will go into my reading queue! > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > _______________________________________________ > wta-talk mailing list > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > From jcorb at irishbroadband.net Tue Aug 3 22:07:49 2004 From: jcorb at irishbroadband.net (J Corbally) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:07:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040803230713.01f30840@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> You mean, you're back? Excellent news! James... >Message: 7 >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:23:38 +0930 >From: Emlyn >Subject: [extropy-chat] Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! >To: ExI chat list >Message-ID: <710b78fc04080305537dd4c382 at mail.gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > >Shameless plug! > > >Does anyone remember the Daleks? Check out the newest track from The >Land Canaan, called "Exterminate", on my website (emlynoregan.com). If >you ever wanted to be Davros, this will inspire you! > > >Also have a listen to a draft track more in the old The Land Canaan >style, "Dido's Lament". > > >Both tracks are on the front page. > > >My website performs woefully for downloads, so please be patient. If >anyone knows a decent place to host original mp3s, I'd love some >advice. Also, I think it goes without saying that the track is free >(beer), otherwise I wouldn't put it on my website, ey? > > >-- >Emlyn From jcorb at irishbroadband.net Tue Aug 3 22:11:05 2004 From: jcorb at irishbroadband.net (J Corbally) Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:11:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] My time is almost up... Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040803230800.01f2d1d8@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> Well, the documents are all verified and stamped, the backgrounds been checked and cleared, the fingerprints have been scanned, and the final stamp's been made. So hopefully (within the next 2 months or so) I'll be making my move to the U.S. Anyone wanna buy a semi-D in South Dublin? :) James... From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 3 22:24:04 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 07:54:04 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20040803230713.01f30840@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> References: <5.0.2.1.1.20040803230713.01f30840@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> Message-ID: <710b78fc040803152418011e@mail.gmail.com> Yes, it *does* mean that! Woo hoo! Our youngest child is at about the age (4) that my eldest was when we first started The Land Canaan, and for some reason that's getting the creative juices flowing (could be sleep). Emlyn On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 23:07:49 +0100, J Corbally wrote: > > You mean, you're back? Excellent news! > > James... > > >Message: 7 > >Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:23:38 +0930 > >From: Emlyn > >Subject: [extropy-chat] Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! > >To: ExI chat list > >Message-ID: <710b78fc04080305537dd4c382 at mail.gmail.com> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > > > >Shameless plug! > > > > > >Does anyone remember the Daleks? Check out the newest track from The > >Land Canaan, called "Exterminate", on my website (emlynoregan.com). If > >you ever wanted to be Davros, this will inspire you! > > > > > >Also have a listen to a draft track more in the old The Land Canaan > >style, "Dido's Lament". > > > > > >Both tracks are on the front page. > > > > > >My website performs woefully for downloads, so please be patient. If > >anyone knows a decent place to host original mp3s, I'd love some > >advice. Also, I think it goes without saying that the track is free > >(beer), otherwise I wouldn't put it on my website, ey? > > > > > >-- > >Emlyn > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sentience at pobox.com Wed Aug 4 04:08:12 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 00:08:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04080320315f0b4a61@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc04080320315f0b4a61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4110612C.7010507@pobox.com> Emlyn wrote: > > Does anyone remember the Daleks? Check out the newest track from The > Land Canaan, called "Exterminate", on my website (emlynoregan.com). If > you ever wanted to be Davros, this will inspire you! I've been compared to Davros: "The Daleks had Davros, the Berserkers had Goodlife, and now the Singularity has Yudkowsky." -- Steve (no last name given) -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 4 07:36:46 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 08:36:46 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sub-replacement fertility spreading rapidly Message-ID: Four Surprises in Global Demography By Nicholas Eberstadt July 2004 (1) the rapid spread of sub-replacement fertility, (2) the emergence of unnatural gender imbalances among the very young, (3) sustained increases in death rates (4) American "demographic exceptionalism". "Sub-replacement fertility is clearly no longer mainly a developed-nation phenomenon. If the Census Bureau's projections are roughly accurate, just about half the world's population lives in sub-replacement countries or territories. Apart from Mongolia, according to the Census Bureau, all of East Asia is sub-replacement, as are Thailand and Burma in Southeast Asia, Kazakhstan and Sri Lanka in South-Central Asia, many Caribbean societies, and most South American countries. Perhaps the biggest surprise, given received notions about the Arab/Muslim expanse, is the recent spread of sub- replacement fertility to parts of the Arab and the Muslim world." Much food for thought in this article about the latest Census Bureau figures. Looks like the US just has to continue as normal and wait for the rest of the world to dwindle away over the next 50 years. BillK From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Aug 4 14:36:07 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2004 07:36:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cryonics: Support Candidates who support us Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040804072950.02901ec0@mail.earthlink.net> Greetings - If you would like to donate to a political candidate who supports cryonics, please go here to read more http://www.merkle.com/cryo/contributions.html. (Extropy Institute does not suggest any one political persuasion, but we do support those who share our expressed vision! ) A link is located on our website at http://www.extropy.org "The Arizona State Legislature considered legislation in its last session to regulate cryonics. It might again consider such legislation in the next session. As a 501(c)3, Alcor cannot support individual candidates. However, individual members, affiliates, supporters and friends are free to support those candidates who support the rights of the individual to make their own choices about their own lives -- including cryonics." Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Wed Aug 4 14:19:40 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 15:19:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Perseids: July 23 - August 22; Peak: August 12 Message-ID: Perseid Meteor Shower http://www.skyscan.ca/perseids.htm Perseids: July 23 - August 22; Peak August 12 "The Perseids are the best-known of any meteor shower. Occurring as they do in mid-August, they can be observed under the warm and comfortable yet darkening skies of late summer. Because of the consistent strength of the shower, and its convenient time of year, the Perseids are observed by more astronomy enthusiasts than any other shower, and are by far the most likely display to be observed by the general public." The Discovery of the Perseids http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/meteors/article_124_1.asp (I hope that I will have an awesome view: I'll be in a waning moon dark sky at Lake Shasta, Calif. during the Perseid Peak: http://www.mtshasta.com/index.html click on 'ShastaCam') Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "Living on earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the sun." --Ashleigh Brilliant From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Aug 4 13:39:01 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 09:39:01 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Perseids: July 23 - August 22; Peak: August 12 Message-ID: <184670-2200483413391921@M2W074.mail2web.com> From: Amara Graps >Perseid Meteor Shower >http://www.skyscan.ca/perseids.htm >Perseids: July 23 - August 22; >Peak August 12 Thank you Amara for the reminder! Yippee! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Wed Aug 4 21:09:12 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 09:09:12 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Relevant to cryonics? Message-ID: <41115078.30907@paradise.net.nz> ESA researching hibernation. This should never be used to send weak fleshy humans to the stars. Hopefully I can get some of this and fast forward to the future, when glorious shiny robots will have taken their rightful place on the throne. http://www.nature.com/news/2004/040802/full/040802-8.html From pfallon at ptd.net Thu Aug 5 14:26:08 2004 From: pfallon at ptd.net (Pat Fallon) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:26:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Perseid predictions References: Message-ID: <001401c47af8$27769f20$3f47bacc@preferrei3lj79> Here is the abstract and conclusion from the just-published WGN article on the 2004 outburst by Lyytinen & Van Flandern Abstract In 2004, August 11 at about 21h UT, the one revolution dust trail of the Perseids parent comet Swift-Tuttle is calculated to pass within 0.0013 AU from the Earth's orbit and we expect this to cause a moderately strong, short outburst of mainly visually dim meteors. We have drawn conclusions from our (Lyytinen, TVF) prediction model that has been quite successful in predicting recent Leonids storms. We also discuss the possibility of enhanced yearly rates because perturbations by Jupiter will now direct all incoming Perseids meteoroids about 0.01 AU closer to the Sun, which allows the possibility of Earth passing through the densest core of the yearly stream. Conclusions With the Moon at waning crescent phase on August 11, observing conditions for the 2004 Perseids meteor activity should be excellent everywhere. Because the radiant is at a high northern declination (+58?), most northern hemisphere observers may expect to see meteors throughout the night. Observers will not want to be north of 60? latitude or so because of the "midnight Sun" in summer. Nor will they want to be below about latitude -32? because the radiant will never rise above their horizon. Using techniques that have had considerable success in predicting the times, locations, and rates for meteor storms and shower peaks for both Leonids and Ursids, we expect that even the annual activity of the Perseids may be better than normal this year. Observations possibly confirming this or rejecting this will be valuable. This will help in mapping the stream and be used in predicting what to expect in the next similar situation in the year 2016. Even before this, in the year 2009 the planet Saturn makes a similar even slightly stronger 'dip' into the incoming meteoroids stream. But as Figure 1 (below) shows, conditions for the following years will revert to more typical meteor rates. Perseids activity this strong or better is not predicted again until the year 2028. In 2004, a possible meteor outburst of mostly fainter-than-average meteors may be seen on August 11 around 21h UT, with the optimum time occurring at 20h 50m UT. That will be daylight hours for the Western Hemisphere, but in darkness for most of the Eastern Hemisphere. Asia will be best situated for observing this outburst. The full width of half-maximum rate is predicted to last about 40 minutes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Posted by Pat Fallon pfallon at ptd.net From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 5 22:55:36 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Thu, 05 Aug 2004 15:55:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) Luddites. I *hate* those guys. Message-ID: <4112BAE8.F5430CD8@mindspring.com> < http://www.reason.com/rb/rb080404.shtml > Prolongevity Is approaching immortality immoral? Ronald Bailey I'm speaking later this week at the World Transhumanist Association's annual meeting, Transvision 2004. Below is a short version of my remarks. What if a biomedical researcher discovered that lives were being cut short because every human being was infected in the womb by a disease organism that eventually wears down the human immune system's ability to protect us? Until that discovery, the "natural" average lifespan was the proverbial three score and ten years. Once the discovery is made, another brilliant researcher devises a "vaccine" that kills off the disease organism. Suddenly the average lifespan doubles to seven score (140 years). In a sense, this is exactly where we find ourselves today. There are no "vaccines" yet to cure the disease of aging. But biomedical researchers understand more with each passing year about the processes that cause the increasing physical and mental debilities that we define as aging. Aging is no more or less "natural" than cholera, smallpox, diabetes, arteriosclerosis, or any disease that cuts short human lives. Nevertheless, a number of prominent bioethicists and other policy intellectuals are arguing that we should oppose any such life-doubling "vaccine" on the grounds that it would interfere with the "natural" course of human life. For example, in the current issue of the journal Gerontology, bioethicist Daniel Callahan claims in a debate with Gregory Stock that doubling human lifespans would be a net negative for individuals and society. Callahan makes three arguments. First, he points out that the "problems of war, poverty, environment, job creation, and social and familial violence" would not "be solved by everyone living a much longer life." Second, he asserts that longer lives will lead mostly to more golf games, not new social energy. "I don't believe that if you give most people longer lives, even in better health, they are going to find new opportunities and new initiatives," Callahan writes. And thirdly, Callahan is worried about what longer lives would do to child bearing and rearing, Social Security and Medicare. He demands that "each one of the problems I mentioned has to be solved in advance. The dumbest thing for us to do would be to wander into this new world and say, 'We'll deal with the problems as they come along.'" Callahan's first argument is a non sequitur. People already engage in lots of activities that do not aim directly at "solving" war, poverty, environmental problems, job creation, and the rest. Surely we can't stop everything until we've ended war, poverty, and familial violence. Anti-aging biomedical research wouldn't obviously exacerbate any of the problems listed by Callahan and might actually moderate some of them. If people knew that they were likely to enjoy many more healthy years, they might be more inclined to longer-term thinking aimed at remedying some of those problems. Second, Callahan's "longer life equals more golf" argument is not only condescending, it ignores the ravages that physical decline visits on people. Callahan, age 73, sees a lack of "new energy" among his confreres. Even if people are healthy at age 75, their "energy" levels will be lower than at age 30. They may not begin "new initiatives" because they can't expect to live to see them come to fruition. But diminishing physical energy isn't the only problem; there is also waning psychic energy. "There's a factor that has nothing to do with physical energy. That is the boredom and repetition of life," he argues. "I ran an organization for 27 years. I didn't get physically tired. I just got bored doing the same thing repetitiously." It doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that, just because Callahan is bored with life, we all will become so. Modern material and intellectual abundance is offering a way out of the lives of quiet desperation suffered by our impoverished ancestors. The 21st century will offer an ever-increasing menu of life plans and choices. Surely exhausting the coming possibilities will take more than one standard lifetime. Besides, if you do want to play endless games of golf and can afford it, why is that immoral? And if you become bored with life and golf, well, no one is making you hang around. Doubling healthy human life expectancy would create some novel social problems, to be sure, but would they really be so hard to deal with? Callahan cites the hoary example of brain-dead old professors blocking the progress of vibrant young researchers by grimly holding onto tenure. That seems more of a problem for medieval holdovers like universities than for modern social institutions like corporations. Assuming it turns out that, even with healthy long-lived oldsters, there is an advantage in turnover in top management, then corporations that adopt that model will thrive and those that do not will be outcompeted. Besides, even today youngsters don't simply wait around for their elders to die. They go out and found their own companies and other institutions. Bill Gates didn't wait to take over IBM; he founded Microsoft at age 20. Nor did human genome sequencer Craig Venter loiter about until the top slot at the National Institutes of Health opened up. And in politics, we already solve the problem of clutching oldsters by term-limiting the presidency, as well as many state and local offices. Callahan's failure of imagination when it comes to public policy conundrums like Social Security and Medicare is breathtaking. Folks will be chronologically older, but not elderly in the current sense. Thus, the standard age when those payoffs begin will obviously have to rise, as the healthy aging will be expected to continue to be productive and support themselves. Assuming that age-retardation is possible, the many illnesses and debilities that accompany aging will be postponed. If one is going to live to be 140, one has a lot of time to plan and save for the future. And his assumption of a child crisis in a world of long-lived people seems based on the idea that healthy oldsters would be less interested in reproducing. A first response might be: so what? Shouldn't the decision to have children be up to individuals? After all, already countries with the highest life expectancies have the lowest levels of fertility. This lack of interest in progeny would have the happy side effect of making sure that doubling human lifespans doesn't lead to overpopulation. No one can know for sure, but it could well be that bearing and rearing children would eventually interest long-lived oldsters who would come to feel that they had the time and the resources to do it right. Callahan's final demand that all problems that doubled healthy lifespans might cause be solved in advance is just silly. Humanity did not solve all of the problems caused by the introduction of farming, electricity, automobiles, antibiotics, sanitation, and computers in advance. We proceeded by trial and error and corrected problems as they arose. We should be allowed do the same thing with any new age-retardation techniques that biomedical research may develop. And we'll be happy to do so. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 03:06:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] My time is almost up... In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.1.20040803230800.01f2d1d8@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> Message-ID: <20040806030600.97043.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- J Corbally wrote: > Well, the documents are all verified and stamped, the backgrounds > been checked and cleared, the fingerprints have been scanned, and the > final stamp's been made. > > So hopefully (within the next 2 months or so) I'll be making my move > to the U.S. Excellent, welcome! Where will you be settling down? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 6 04:42:31 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cryonics: Support Candidates who support us In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040804072950.02901ec0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040806044231.37597.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Excellent! I fully support the recommendations on Merkle's site and suggest that people do what they can with either money or volunteer support for campaigns to help make the cryonics movement an effective lobby in Arizona. Write letters to the editors of AZ newspapers and try to get on local talk radio shows about the issue. --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Greetings - > > If you would like to donate to a political candidate who supports > cryonics, please go here to read more > http://www.merkle.com/cryo/contributions.html. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From Claus.Bornich at autocue.co.uk Fri Aug 6 14:20:52 2004 From: Claus.Bornich at autocue.co.uk (Claus Bornich) Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 15:20:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic music Message-ID: Hello. Just discovered a new artist with what must be the most transhuman angle I've come across so far. After reading the introduction on his website (below) I was quite excited and although the music is more open to interpretation than it would suggest, I must say it is really good stuff. Maybe not so strange since I already love both technology and electronic music. Here are two snippets of texts describing his music. One from the frontpage on his website and the second from the record company that distributes his records. "Cursor Miner was found dead on the evening of 28/01/2004. Slumped over his laboratory table amidst a mass of smouldering cables his skull containing 2kg of mercury. In a botched attempt to upload his brain the very nature of information itself had become unstable, only the fact that he was using cheap audio cables saved the rest of reality from destruction. The only salvagable data on the machine was 11 pieces of music his mind had managed to write to the disk during the final milliseconds of fevered neural activity. This was a final desperate attempt to describe the sensations of becoming pure data. This album was entitled "Cursor Miner Plays God" and will be released on May 24th on Lo Recordings." The review of his previous album at Lo Recordings reads: "Cursor Miner is one of those people who never quite traded in their starry-eyed optimism for cold, hard cynicism. Or lost his fancy for philosophical musings about the possibilities of quantum physics, the likelihood of ever relocating to outer space or being well up for replacing his body parts with supertechnology. Maybe it's na?ve, but, well, fuck it. People scoffed about putting man on the moon, too, and now look where we are, eh? His debut album Explosive Piece Of Mind imagines a vision of the future where the world flourishes in a techno utopia; a place where science uses its powers for good instead of evil. He's a denizen of the fantasyland where we don't actually destroy the earth, we make it a better place. His music is equally ambitious: pop with an edge, that dares to both fuck with you and be irresistibly catchy at the same time: a proper electronic pop album with harmonies, razor sharp lyrics, songs, hooks and all those things you thought the laptop generation had left behind. And twisted, like if Lewis Carroll wrote lyrics for Gary Numan or Squarepusher. Curioser and curioser." Both albums are quite eclectic in style and quality. Some is amazingly good and some is just so-so. I love most of the cursor miner plays god album though. You can find his website at http://www.cursorminer.com There are a few free mp3 clips for download. Although they are too short and few to give a complete idea of all that is on offer, it will give an impression of the style of music. PS! No I am in no way associated with or even know this guy. I only heard of him two weeks ago, whereas I've been a loyal reader of the extropy forum for almost three years now. It's been a bumpy ride for sure but I've learned a lot from following this forum and it's nice to know there are likeminded individuals out there. Not exactly a frequent poster though... PSPS! Anyone with any theories on what the Cursor Miner name might be a reference to? Cheers! Claus From paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz Fri Aug 6 21:24:12 2004 From: paul.bridger at paradise.net.nz (paul.bridger) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 09:24:12 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4113F6FC.8000307@paradise.net.nz> Claus Bornich wrote: > PSPS! Anyone with any theories on what the Cursor Miner name might be a reference to? My interpretation: Well the cursor in terms of a computer interface is the point of entry, the boundary between user and computer, man and machine. Much like coal miners dig holes in a rock face, he is tunnelling into the possibilities within computers (ie. electronica music). From jcorb at irishbroadband.net Fri Aug 6 23:41:46 2004 From: jcorb at irishbroadband.net (J Corbally) Date: Sat, 07 Aug 2004 00:41:46 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] My time is almost up... Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040807003952.01f2dab8@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> Thanks Mike! We'll be settling in Virginia, most likely in the Roanoke area. We've quite a bit of house hunting to do :) James... >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:06:00 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mike Lorrey >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] My time is almost up... >To: ExI chat list >Message-ID: <20040806030600.97043.qmail at web12903.mail.yahoo.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > >--- J Corbally wrote: > > Well, the documents are all verified and stamped, the backgrounds > > been checked and cleared, the fingerprints have been scanned, and the > > final stamp's been made. > > > > So hopefully (within the next 2 months or so) I'll be making my move > > to the U.S. >Excellent, welcome! Where will you be settling down? >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." >-William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism From pfallon at ptd.net Sat Aug 7 19:23:32 2004 From: pfallon at ptd.net (Pat Fallon) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 15:23:32 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropic music References: <4113F6FC.8000307@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <002501c47cb4$09559e20$3447bacc@preferrei3lj79> > > PSPS! Anyone with any theories on what the Cursor Miner name might be a > reference to? my wild-ass guess: ursa minor the constellation of stars -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 8 05:09:06 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:09:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <1091159712_9671@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <000a01c47d05$d843b180$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Starman wrote: >I actually thought for a few brief seconds that this story was the real thing and that Bush >had put his fraternity boy personality to patriotic good use... Ja, I have decided I will vote for the other guy. Assuming I can recall his name. Ralph somebody I think. Hates Corvairs. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 8 05:29:55 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:29:55 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040730011535.01c1a150@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c47d08$c33690c0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Apologies for the stolen bandwidth folks. Just tried to e Spike Jones > offlist, got a `mailbox full' bounce. Is the spam choking you, pal? > > Damien Oops sorry about that Damien. I was on a two week vacation, riding all over the northwestern US on an antique motorcycle which I restored this past spring. Total distance on the bike about 5 megameters on the bike, ~140 km on foot. Hiked, backpacked and camped all over Mount Rainier. I rigged a platform on the back of the bike to haul the backpacks and camping gear, worked great. Had a great time, no major pieces fell off of the bike. It was a *most* excellent adventure. But yes, I am choking on spam, oy vey, and Im missing some very important personal email. While I was out backpacking and riding, I had some wonderful ideas to post. I will start with this one: we should explore the notion of using the spoken word to spread extropian memes, not just in conferences but rather to create MP3 files which can be carried in one's palm pilot or equivalent. It occurred to me that the spoken word conveys nuances that are lost in the electronic post. I will develop this idea further after I clean up my bike and camping gear. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 05:58:01 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:28:01 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike In-Reply-To: <000001c47d08$c33690c0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000001c47d08$c33690c0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc04080722587db60c15@mail.gmail.com> Have a look at Audio blogging, such as: http://www.blogger.com/knowledge/2004/06/on-road-with-audioblogger.pyra I remember seeing a site recently that seemed to let you make your own playlist from streaming audio all over the web, that might be useful. Anyone know the site I mean? Emlyn On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:29:55 -0700, Spike wrote: > > Apologies for the stolen bandwidth folks. Just tried to e Spike Jones > > offlist, got a `mailbox full' bounce. Is the spam choking you, pal? > > > > Damien > > Oops sorry about that Damien. I was on a two week vacation, > riding all over the northwestern US on an antique motorcycle > which I restored this past spring. Total distance on the > bike about 5 megameters on the bike, ~140 km on foot. > > Hiked, backpacked and camped all over Mount Rainier. > I rigged a platform on the back of the bike to haul the > backpacks and camping gear, worked great. Had a great > time, no major pieces fell off of the bike. It was a > *most* excellent adventure. > > But yes, I am choking on spam, oy vey, and Im > missing some very important personal email. > While I was out backpacking and riding, I had > some wonderful ideas to post. I will start > with this one: we should explore the notion > of using the spoken word to spread extropian > memes, not just in conferences but rather to > create MP3 files which can be carried in one's > palm pilot or equivalent. It occurred to me > that the spoken word conveys nuances that are > lost in the electronic post. > > I will develop this idea further after I > clean up my bike and camping gear. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sun Aug 8 06:00:05 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:30:05 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04080722587db60c15@mail.gmail.com> References: <000001c47d08$c33690c0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <710b78fc04080722587db60c15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040807230016586e2b@mail.gmail.com> Oh yeah, here it is: ************************* Multimedia Scrapbooks to Share New York Times July 15, 2004 ************************* Web users are programming their own virtual TV newscasts and eclectic collections of video clips using a free media-sharing tool called Webjay (www.webjay.org). The site makes it easy to build, share and watch playlists of audio and video links culled from around the... http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=3537&m=7529 Gotta love gmail! Emlyn On Sun, 8 Aug 2004 15:28:01 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Have a look at Audio blogging, such as: > http://www.blogger.com/knowledge/2004/06/on-road-with-audioblogger.pyra > > I remember seeing a site recently that seemed to let you make your own > playlist from streaming audio all over the web, that might be useful. > Anyone know the site I mean? > > Emlyn > > > > > On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:29:55 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Apologies for the stolen bandwidth folks. Just tried to e Spike Jones > > > offlist, got a `mailbox full' bounce. Is the spam choking you, pal? > > > > > > Damien > > > > Oops sorry about that Damien. I was on a two week vacation, > > riding all over the northwestern US on an antique motorcycle > > which I restored this past spring. Total distance on the > > bike about 5 megameters on the bike, ~140 km on foot. > > > > Hiked, backpacked and camped all over Mount Rainier. > > I rigged a platform on the back of the bike to haul the > > backpacks and camping gear, worked great. Had a great > > time, no major pieces fell off of the bike. It was a > > *most* excellent adventure. > > > > But yes, I am choking on spam, oy vey, and Im > > missing some very important personal email. > > While I was out backpacking and riding, I had > > some wonderful ideas to post. I will start > > with this one: we should explore the notion > > of using the spoken word to spread extropian > > memes, not just in conferences but rather to > > create MP3 files which can be carried in one's > > palm pilot or equivalent. It occurred to me > > that the spoken word conveys nuances that are > > lost in the electronic post. > > > > I will develop this idea further after I > > clean up my bike and camping gear. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 8 11:12:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 04:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <000a01c47d05$d843b180$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040808111257.50833.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Ja, I have decided I will vote for the other guy. Assuming I can > recall > his name. > Ralph somebody I think. Hates Corvairs. spike Nah, the big guy to nader Bush this year is Badnarik, Michael Badnarik. A good, principled Libertarian. Knows his stuff too. I met with the LP VP candidate yesterday, Campagna. He's a good candidate too. Badnarik is above 3% in the polls, and rising. LP vote could reach 6% easy this year, maybe more, enough to nix Bush unless he pulls a bin Laden out of his hat. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Sun Aug 8 12:14:42 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 14:14:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <20040808111257.50833.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000a01c47d05$d843b180$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <20040808111257.50833.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040808121442.GM1400@leitl.org> On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 04:12:57AM -0700, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Nah, the big guy to nader Bush this year is Badnarik, Michael Badnarik. To nader Bush -- to bring Bush again into office? Why would one want to do that? http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com/ > A good, principled Libertarian. Knows his stuff too. I met with the LP > VP candidate yesterday, Campagna. He's a good candidate too. Badnarik > is above 3% in the polls, and rising. LP vote could reach 6% easy this Has LP ever achieved over 1% in the US at any point in its history? > year, maybe more, enough to nix Bush unless he pulls a bin Laden out of > his hat. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From artillo at comcast.net Sun Aug 8 16:04:48 2004 From: artillo at comcast.net (Brian Shores) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:04:48 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike In-Reply-To: <000001c47d08$c33690c0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <001d01c47d61$6eb398a0$49635544@bjsmain2> Antique motorbike ehh??Hahaa excellent! :: flashes back to Zen & the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:: Are you going to have any pictures from your trip anyplace?? Love the idea of your "portable meme transmitter"! I have an older Treo 90, though, I'm not sure if it has an expansion card for an mp3 player, but I have been thinking about biting the bullet and just getting an iPod or something I think we would all agree that some things just can't be effectively communicated without the suttleness of human expression. Perhaps on a separate note, although along the same lines of thought, I have been exploring a VR world as of late called Second Life (www.secondlife.com). I'm not sure how many of you have been to it yet, but I must say that the potential of this program (above all others I have tried) has the potential to really emulate the nuances of human communication in a purely digital simulacrum (IE the Metaverse!). SL supports a custom "C++" like scripting language called LSL. With it you can do any number of typical OO programming things in addition to directly controlling the 3D environment. The language can be programmed to affect or BE affected by all parts of the world interface, including gravity, object collisions, and all kinds of movement behaviors. With the introduction of version 1.4, they now support Poser animation files! Well, combine this with the ability to upload music/wav files, pull in streaming audio from the web, uploading image/textures right from your HD, and eventually the addition streaming voicechat and possibly even voice synched avatar facial movements, and you have a system that will be able to more accurately "render" (pardon the pun) the complexity of human emotions in communication. This of course, depends largely on the skill level and technical expertise as well as the artistic vision to make something so beautiful as human thought into an equally stunning avatar. And then of course there's the hardware side of things. But basically, I believe that Life is an Equation, and that the more precicely we can model things, the closer to understanding that Equation we will be. Quantum computing will help to bring this about, and having a full 100% digital simulacrum would be awesome, but the word "digital" will have to take on new meaning and terminologies. Anyways I am rambling, maybe this should be shifted to its own thread ehh?? Peace and Happy Building, Artillo -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Spike Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 1:30 AM To: 'ExI chat list'; 'Damien Broderick' Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike > Apologies for the stolen bandwidth folks. Just tried to e Spike Jones > offlist, got a `mailbox full' bounce. Is the spam choking you, pal? > > Damien Oops sorry about that Damien. I was on a two week vacation, riding all over the northwestern US on an antique motorcycle which I restored this past spring. Total distance on the bike about 5 megameters on the bike, ~140 km on foot. Hiked, backpacked and camped all over Mount Rainier. I rigged a platform on the back of the bike to haul the backpacks and camping gear, worked great. Had a great time, no major pieces fell off of the bike. It was a *most* excellent adventure. But yes, I am choking on spam, oy vey, and Im missing some very important personal email. While I was out backpacking and riding, I had some wonderful ideas to post. I will start with this one: we should explore the notion of using the spoken word to spread extropian memes, not just in conferences but rather to create MP3 files which can be carried in one's palm pilot or equivalent. It occurred to me that the spoken word conveys nuances that are lost in the electronic post. I will develop this idea further after I clean up my bike and camping gear. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From artillo at comcast.net Sun Aug 8 16:11:02 2004 From: artillo at comcast.net (Brian Shores) Date: Sun, 8 Aug 2004 12:11:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04080722587db60c15@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01c47d62$4d50bb60$49635544@bjsmain2> I have both Winamp (supporting html playlists) and the SAM2 Broadcaster from www.audiorealm.com . The SAM2 html playlists are far superior, and can display song histories and also enable html requests for songs right on the site. Plus it outputs your songs in alpha search so it's durned easy to find what you are looking for. I am a net DJ so I use the thing quite a bit. It will also generate html based reports for viewing histories etc. If you can find a free copy of SAM2 I would recommend it, and it will help sort large amounts of mp3 data (I have over 12000 music/video files) and aid you in finding them quickly to be broadcast. I would purchase SAM2 myself if I didn't already have a copy! LOL Easy listenin peeps! Artillo PS: Take a listen to my show if you like heavy metal, punk, and indie stuff, www.fusedradio.com Artillo's Heavy Metal Hoedown, Sundays 10pm-Midnight EST Can I get a W00t? I'll take requests thru YIM as well! -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 1:58 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] a message for spike66 from thespike Have a look at Audio blogging, such as: http://www.blogger.com/knowledge/2004/06/on-road-with-audioblogger.pyra I remember seeing a site recently that seemed to let you make your own playlist from streaming audio all over the web, that might be useful. Anyone know the site I mean? Emlyn On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:29:55 -0700, Spike wrote: > > Apologies for the stolen bandwidth folks. Just tried to e Spike > > Jones offlist, got a `mailbox full' bounce. Is the spam choking you, > > pal? > > > > Damien > > Oops sorry about that Damien. I was on a two week vacation, riding > all over the northwestern US on an antique motorcycle which I restored > this past spring. Total distance on the bike about 5 megameters on > the bike, ~140 km on foot. > > Hiked, backpacked and camped all over Mount Rainier. > I rigged a platform on the back of the bike to haul the backpacks and > camping gear, worked great. Had a great time, no major pieces fell > off of the bike. It was a > *most* excellent adventure. > > But yes, I am choking on spam, oy vey, and Im > missing some very important personal email. > While I was out backpacking and riding, I had > some wonderful ideas to post. I will start > with this one: we should explore the notion > of using the spoken word to spread extropian > memes, not just in conferences but rather to > create MP3 files which can be carried in one's > palm pilot or equivalent. It occurred to me > that the spoken word conveys nuances that are > lost in the electronic post. > > I will develop this idea further after I > clean up my bike and camping gear. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Mon Aug 9 14:45:52 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 15:45:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <20040808121442.GM1400@leitl.org> References: <000a01c47d05$d843b180$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <20040808111257.50833.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <20040808121442.GM1400@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41178E20.9090704@optusnet.com.au> Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 04:12:57AM -0700, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >>Nah, the big guy to nader Bush this year is Badnarik, Michael Badnarik. > > > To nader Bush -- to bring Bush again into office? Why would one want to do > that? > I think the term "Nader X" refers to the fact that Nader has no chance of winning a majority, but takes enough votes from the candidate most like him (X = usually the democrats) that they both lose to the other party. Hence, to "Nader someone" is to split the vote amongst similar candidates causing them both to lose. P.S. This doesn't work in Australia, where we have preferential voting, rather than "first past the post". -David. From gingell at gnat.com Mon Aug 9 13:26:06 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 09:26:06 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the secrets of George Bush's war service revealed In-Reply-To: <20040808121442.GM1400@leitl.org> References: <000a01c47d05$d843b180$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <20040808111257.50833.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <20040808121442.GM1400@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040809132606.GA29791@gnat.com> On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 02:14:42PM +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Has LP ever achieved over 1% in the US at any point in its history? Yes; In 1980 Edward Clark managed 921,128 votes for 1.06% of the popular vote, but this wasn't enough to get him anything in the electoral college. They actually swung one electoral vote in 1972 in Virginia - the year of McGovern's historic 17 to 521 loss to Richard Nixon. Of course they did it with 3,674 votes when a Nixon elector defected and cast his vote for John Hospers, so this was a bit of a fluke. Big years for 3rd parties were 1968 when George Wallace took the deep South for the American Independants, and Ross Perot taking 20% of the popular vote with nearly 20 million ballets cast as an independent in 1992. From nanogirl at halcyon.com Mon Aug 9 20:59:51 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Nanogirl) Date: Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:59:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: new__price.zip Type: application/octet-stream Size: 5932 bytes Desc: not available URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 9 20:12:17 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 13:12:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush's Secret State of the Union Address. Message-ID: <20040809201217.68246.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> This one too is a joke but one that is funny and disurbing at the same time. Enjoy http://www.ebaumsworld.com/presaddress2.shtml ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From nanogirl at halcyon.com Mon Aug 9 21:26:36 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 14:26:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] That's not my post - delete it References: <41115078.30907@paradise.net.nz> Message-ID: <003401c47e57$925428a0$1db71218@Nano> Hi guys, I just noticed a message supposedly from me, posted to the list. However, I did not send a message to the list. The email has a zip file attachment, thus, I can only speculate that this is bad news and there for suggest you don't open it simply delete it. The real Nanogirl -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 9 22:08:30 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 15:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] That's not my post - delete it In-Reply-To: <003401c47e57$925428a0$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20040809220830.69713.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gina Miller wrote: > However, I did not send a > message to the list. Of course you did. This one, for example. You didn't send *that* message, though... ;P > The email has a zip file > attachment, thus, I can only speculate that this is > bad news and there for suggest you don't open it > simply delete it. It's a known virus/trojan spreading mechanism: send email pretending to be from a known user, make minimal (usually unsuccessful) efforts towards endorsing the attachment as something to be opened, and send code to repeat the mechanism (and maybe do other things) as the attachment. From nanogirl at halcyon.com Mon Aug 9 23:20:53 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:20:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] That's not my post - delete it References: <20040809220830.69713.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002701c47e67$87c7b540$1db71218@Nano> Exactly, that's why the message should be deleted. Gina It's a known virus/trojan spreading mechanism: send email pretending to be from a known user, make minimal (usually unsuccessful) efforts towards endorsing the attachment as something to be opened, and send code to repeat the mechanism (and maybe do other things) as the attachment. > The email has a zip file > attachment, thus, I can only speculate that this is > bad news and there for suggest you don't open it > simply delete it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 10 02:52:22 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 19:52:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] extropian memes in spoken word In-Reply-To: <051301c46fb3$587ef180$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000001c47e85$11bf33f0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> >Antique motorbike ehh??Hahaa excellent! :: flashes back to Zen & the Art >of Motorcycle Maintenance:: Loved that book. >Are you going to have any pictures from your trip anyplace?? Ja, but there are some items higher on the priority list currently. Do stand by. >Love the idea of your "portable meme transmitter"!... >I think we would all agree that some things just can't >be effectively communicated without the subtleness of >human expression. I got the idea while riding to Mt. Rainier on the bike, listening to the local radio. In central Oregon there are vast stretches where the radio choices are limited indeed. In one stretch of over an hour, the only thing available was a religion-meme station, so I chose the sermon over the drone of my engine. I did not get religion. But it did occur to me that a sermon format is a very effective means of transmitting ideas. We in extropia worry ourselves, perhaps excessively, about being considered a religion. While we need to avoid the appearance of promoting a dogma, we can use the sermon format to great advantage once we realize that the spoken word has a rhythm and a cadence, which makes it in some applications more effective than the written word. For an excellent example of what I mean, consider two persons who were particularly skilled at using the voice as a medium of meme transfer: Martin Luther King and Ronald Reagan. If you listen to their voice control, the cadence, the alliteration, these guys had it. We can have that too. spike From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 07:10:59 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:10:59 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: References: <20040726004934.47698.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948b11e0408100010556843a3@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, they are fighting a different kind of war than we are. They are fighting off an invasion and the forced injection of a foreign culture. They are fighting those who have meddled in their affairs and directed or supported their oppression for decades. Yep, a very different kind of war. -s On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 10:52:01 -0500, Kevin Freels wrote: > > their target audience is, for example, the > > Palestinians who celebrated when the WTC collapsed. > > Low-profile targets won't impress that audience, and > > they know it. > > > I hadn;t thought of it that way. How about a totally different idea? > > What if we create and release a virus into the middle east that causes men > to lose all their body hair? We can do this in concert with a holographic > imageof Allah projected into the sky telling them that they must love and > embrace all humans, and will be punished for their wicked ways. > > They are fighting a different kind of war than we are. Let's pull out the > military entriely and mess with their heads. :-) > > Kevin Freels > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 07:21:11 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:21:11 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Commission Report In-Reply-To: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <003401c47200$e2b44d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <948b11e04081000215e0f8d11@mail.gmail.com> I am very worried although not of a nuclear attack per se. I am worried that human freedom, prosperity and invention may be seriously curtailed and rolled back through global agression and counter-agressions. I am worried that the continuously diet of fear we in the US are being fed will preclude the majority of the people from even remembering to care about freedom. I am afraid the majority will vote for whatever draconian "cure" for their fear that the proponents of the fear wish to sell them next. I am worried that the anti-mind, anti-science, pro-belief folks are running the show and that their control of the Executive is ever more dire as the Executive gets more and more unilateral power. I am worried that both the NeoCons and the New Democrats share a penchant for imperialistic control of the world in the best interest of continuous US domination on all fronts. I am worried that in all practical ways the parties are nearly indistinquishable except for the facade over the top of the same underlying deadly designs for the country and the world. I am worried that we are playing bizarre idiotic games while burning through our primary energy source and best chemical feedstocks. I am worried that we are playing US vs Them games at every level and their are no voices hardly anymore that seek to find solutions that work for all. - samantha On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 21:35:58 -0700, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > As a personal aside, in the last year or so I've had the worst dreams of my life regarding "end-of-the-world scenarios" caused by explosions - nuclear bombs and such (actually I haven't had nightmares any like this, ever - and they've been coming intermittently but consistently). > > Is anyone else on this list as worried as I am? Does anyone see any end in sight? > > Re the 9/11 Commission Report: "The report offers vivid details on our worst fears. Instead of focusing on immediately hitting back at Osama, Bush officials indulged their idiotic id?e fixe on Saddam and ignored the memo from their counter-terrorism experts dismissing any connection between the religious fanatic bin Laden and the secular Hussein." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/25/opinion/25dowd.html?hp > > Olga > > > From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 07:28:35 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:28:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Royal Society report on nano In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040729165245.01cbcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040729165245.01cbcec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <948b11e040810002876647169@mail.gmail.com> Ah yes. We have nothing but uncertainties. But because we have nothing but uncertainties (FUD), we will immediately press on to regulate what we simply don't know beans about. Certainly research is required in the face of uncertainty. But should we wait with the regulation to find out what only the research can tell us about what and if to regulate? - s On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:53:45 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://zdnet.com.com/2102-1103_2-5289179.html?tag=printthis > > "Most nanotechnologies pose no new risks to health, safety or the > environment, but we believe research and regulation is required immediately > to address uncertainties about the effects of manufactured nanoparticles > and nanotubes," Professor Ann Dowling, of the University of Cambridge, told > a news conference. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 07:37:01 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:37:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: References: <710b78fc040724015574532b34@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e040728001659035e4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e040810003722737525@mail.gmail.com> Now wait a sec. The American people had to wait nearly three years to get a [alleged] full investigation of the worse attack we have suffered on American soil. That by itself is enough to make any sane person bitter toward this Administration as it did all it could to avoid such an investigation. The investigation we got was riddled with unasked questions, unanswered questions and answers that We the People will not be allowed to even learn until after an election in which we determine whether the current administration is to to be trusted to another term. So, I am not surprised by bitterness. This administration has earned it. Above you imply that the administration would have been fine with an earlier investigation but their enemies put it off until now. This is not the way it went down at all. Go check it out for yourself. - samantha On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 10:09:59 -0500, Kevin Freels wrote: > I agree that this commission was a political puppet, but not of the > administration. I sat and watched these hearings and they were just full of > bitterness and attacks at the administration. This commission was brought > forth in an election year by the opposing party in order to discredit Bush > and decrease his chances of reelection. This is why the commission wasn;t > put together until years after the event. Some of the questioning was so > rediculous that it started to appear as a replay of the McCarthy hearings. > They could care less about figuring out what went wrong. They just wanted to > attack the Bush administration. If they really were after the truth, as you > said, they would have address US foreign policy. > > Kevin Freels > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Samantha Atkins" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 2:16 AM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology > > > This is sickening. It was bad enough the so-called 911 Commission > > failed to address many of the most pressing questions of what happened > > and why on 911. That and the very fact it was postponed until years > > after the original event was bad enough and more than sufficient to > > show this was not any sort of honest examination. But to now posit an > > ideological war as being largely the "why" of terrorism and hardly > > bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger throughout the region > > says that this Commission was a political puppet of the current > > adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. > > > > -s > > > > On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 18:25:06 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > > An interesting article on the US's troubles with Islam, from NYT. > > > I've included the whole thing, and here's the link (but you'll need to > > > be registered): > > > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/24/opinion/24brooks.html?th > > > > > > War of Ideology > > > By DAVID BROOKS > > > > > > Published: July 24, 2004 > > > > > > When foreign policy wonks go to bed, they dream of being X. They dream > > > of writing the all-encompassing, epoch-defining essay, the way George > > > F. Kennan did during the cold war under the pseudonym X. > > > > > > Careers have been spent racing to be X. But in our own time, the 9/11 > > > commission has come closer than anybody else. After spending 360 pages > > > describing a widespread intelligence failure, the commissioners step > > > back in their report and redefine the nature of our predicament. > > > > > > We're not in the middle of a war on terror, they note. We're not > > > facing an axis of evil. Instead, we are in the midst of an ideological > > > conflict. > > > > > > We are facing, the report notes, a loose confederation of people who > > > believe in a perverted stream of Islam that stretches from Ibn Taimaya > > > to Sayyid Qutb. Terrorism is just the means they use to win converts > > > to their cause. > > > > > > It seems like a small distinction - emphasizing ideology instead of > > > terror - but it makes all the difference, because if you don't define > > > your problem correctly, you can't contemplate a strategy for victory. > > > > > > When you see that our enemies are primarily an intellectual movement, > > > not a terrorist army, you see why they are in no hurry. With their > > > extensive indoctrination infrastructure of madrassas and mosques, > > > they're still building strength, laying the groundwork for decades of > > > struggle. Their time horizon can be totally different from our own. > > > > > > As an ideological movement rather than a national or military one, > > > they can play by different rules. There is no territory they must > > > protect. They never have to win a battle but can instead profit in the > > > realm of public opinion from the glorious martyrdom entailed in their > > > defeats. We think the struggle is fought on the ground, but they know > > > the struggle is really fought on satellite TV, and they are far more > > > sophisticated than we are in using it. > > > > > > The 9/11 commission report argues that we have to fight this war on > > > two fronts. We have to use intelligence, military, financial and > > > diplomatic capacities to fight Al Qaeda. That's where most of the > > > media attention is focused. But the bigger fight is with a hostile > > > belief system that can't be reasoned with but can only be "destroyed > > > or utterly isolated." > > > > > > The commissioners don't say it, but the implication is clear. We've > > > had an investigation into our intelligence failures; we now need a > > > commission to analyze our intellectual failures. Simply put, the > > > unapologetic defenders of America often lack the expertise they need. > > > And scholars who really know the Islamic world are often blind to its > > > pathologies. They are so obsessed with the sins of the West, they are > > > incapable of grappling with threats to the West. > > > > > > We also need to mount our own ideological counteroffensive. The > > > commissioners recommend that the U.S. should be much more critical of > > > autocratic regimes, even friendly ones, simply to demonstrate our > > > principles. They suggest we set up a fund to build secondary schools > > > across Muslim states, and admit many more students into our own. If > > > you are a philanthropist, here is how you can contribute: We need to > > > set up the sort of intellectual mobilization we had during the cold > > > war, with modern equivalents of the Congress for Cultural Freedom, to > > > give an international platform to modernist Muslims and to introduce > > > them to Western intellectuals. > > > > > > Most of all, we need to see that the landscape of reality is altered. > > > In the past, we've fought ideological movements that took control of > > > states. Our foreign policy apparatus is geared toward relations with > > > states: negotiating with states, confronting states. Now we are faced > > > with a belief system that is inimical to the state system, and aims at > > > theological rule and the restoration of the caliphate. We'll need a > > > new set of institutions to grapple with this reality, and a new > > > training method to understand people who are uninterested in national > > > self-interest, traditionally defined. > > > > > > Last week I met with a leading military officer stationed in > > > Afghanistan and Iraq, whose observations dovetailed remarkably with > > > the 9/11 commissioners. He said the experience of the last few years > > > is misleading; only 10 percent of our efforts from now on will be > > > military. The rest will be ideological. He observed that we are in the > > > fight against Islamic extremism now where we were in the fight against > > > communism in 1880. > > > > > > We've got a long struggle ahead, but at least we're beginning to > understand it. > > > > > > E-mail: dabrooks at nytimes.com > > > > > > -- > > > Emlyn > > > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 07:40:16 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:40:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: <20040728165538.28632.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040728165538.28632.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04081000403790b3fe@mail.gmail.com> It conveniently puts the blame on "them" and their wacky ideology. It is of the same cloth as Bush claiming they "hate us because we are so good." Any thinking person who bothers to research the history of our involvement in that part of the world knows this is a LIE. I guess though we'll have to distinguish between Republican truth and Arab truth and leave truth itself a casualty. -s On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:55:38 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > But to now posit an > > ideological war as being largely the "why" of > > terrorism and hardly > > bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger > > throughout the region > > says that this Commission was a political puppet of > > the current > > adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. > > Oh, they mention the policies. That's part of the > source of the ideological war. But whatever the > cause, the result is still the result - and merely > removing the cause won't necessarily fix everything > (even if it would help a lot). > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Aug 10 07:47:20 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 00:47:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: <6E192D79-E4B4-11D8-8438-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> References: <20040728165538.28632.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> <6E192D79-E4B4-11D8-8438-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04081000471ee3e475@mail.gmail.com> Sure, if that was remotely what was going on and what is at the root of our troubles. We have torn hell out of the Middle East and supported those who have oppressed the people to this day. It would be a mark of insanity if a tremendous number of persons in that part of the world were not righteously pissed. Religion is not the real question. Do you think you will get relatively wacky religion to lessen in strength if the supposed voice for rationality and secularism is sending in evangelists to convert you to its God while plundering your country and oppressing your people? If we really want culture change this is diametrically opposite the way to acheive it. If you want endless anger and striking out any way they can including terrorism then we are doing exactly the right thing. If you want to incite enough terrorism to justify bulldozing the rest of the land then we are doing the right thing. - samantha On Mon, 2 Aug 2004 14:47:39 -0400, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > Not to beat a dead thread, but - > > I had a room mate once, who was incredibly neat and well organized. > Yes, some people would call him a "neat-freak" or even > "super-anal-retentive" This wasn't an Odd Couple scenario, with me > being a slob, but I wasn't as highly structured. From time to time we > made each other crazy. > > So my question is : Who was right? > > I heard of an academic expert speaking on Isalm, of course talking the > sense of it being a religion of peace and the like. The quote that > stuck with me, was something along the lines of the "problem" is > radical interpretations of Islamic law, and that most of history > involving Islam revolves around a small minority. > > I tend to keep with the old "Your right to throw a punch ends at my > face" Heinleinian angle. > > But if we have a group that wants to create "the perfect Islamic > nation-state", and are constantly looking to increase their > square-footage, are we not having an ideological conflict? I think that > blaming partisan politics, soviet-era US backing, coddling Israel, and > all other catch phrases, are failing to acknowledge the fact that this > does seem to be an ideological problem...? > > > > > On Jul 28, 2004, at 12:55 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> But to now posit an > >> ideological war as being largely the "why" of > >> terrorism and hardly > >> bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger > >> throughout the region > >> says that this Commission was a political puppet of > >> the current > >> adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. > > > > Oh, they mention the policies. That's part of the > > source of the ideological war. But whatever the > > cause, the result is still the result - and merely > > removing the cause won't necessarily fix everything > > (even if it would help a lot). > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Aug 10 15:06:09 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 11:06:09 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Laura Bush Defends George Bush's Stem Cell Views Message-ID: <288350-2200482101569977@M2W099.mail2web.com> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5652274/ This very well could become a definitive issue for the upcoming US election, or an argument between a current First Lady and a former First Lady. I'd like to see "Nancy" roll up her shirt sleeves and get in there and fight for biotech progress. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Aug 10 15:40:21 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 08:40:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] War of Ideology In-Reply-To: <948b11e04081000403790b3fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040810154021.60221.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> *cough* I did say "part", right? As in, "this is a subset of the cause, neither 0% nor 100% of it"? --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > It conveniently puts the blame on "them" and their > wacky ideology. It > is of the same cloth as Bush claiming they "hate us > because we are so > good." Any thinking person who bothers to research > the history of > our involvement in that part of the world knows this > is a LIE. I > guess though we'll have to distinguish between > Republican truth and > Arab truth and leave truth itself a casualty. > > -s > > On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 09:55:38 -0700 (PDT), Adrian > Tymes > wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > But to now posit an > > > ideological war as being largely the "why" of > > > terrorism and hardly > > > bothering to mention US polcies fueling anger > > > throughout the region > > > says that this Commission was a political puppet > of > > > the current > > > adminstration with no credibility whatsoever. > > > > Oh, they mention the policies. That's part of the > > source of the ideological war. But whatever the > > cause, the result is still the result - and merely > > removing the cause won't necessarily fix > everything > > (even if it would help a lot). From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Aug 10 16:13:34 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:13:34 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] House-warming Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040810112951.03c32ac8@unreasonable.com> After the fun we had at my Newtonmas party (beginning at 2 PM, the last group left at 2 AM), I was intent on a successor in the spring. Life intruded, but I'm ready now. I'm in a new house -- not set-up to my satisfaction, but good enough for a gathering of extropians. If you are going to be in the Boston area, you're welcome to attend. There's crash-space here, if you need it. You may be able to get a ride from NYC or other parts south; use the exi-east list to coordinate. (If you're not around but coming to town in the future, let us know. We can usually lure a quorum of Bostropians.) My house. Hudson, New Hampshire. A couple miles from the MA border and the Nashua malls. Roughly 20 minutes north of Rt. 128. This Saturday, August 14. 2 PM until the last person not me leaves. Anyone on this list is specifically invited. If you have someone else in mind, run it by me. It will probably be okay. Additionally, I will invite a few friends-of-extropy, such as sf writer, nano, LP, MIT, Alcor types. Bring to augment existing: food, drink; musical instruments; interesting stuff to show people. We'll order Chinese food at some point. RSVP to me and the exi-east list. -- David Lubkin. lubkin at unreasonable.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 10 16:39:34 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 09:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Laura Bush Defends George Bush's Stem Cell Views In-Reply-To: <288350-2200482101569977@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040810163934.63099.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5652274/ > > This very well could become a definitive issue for the upcoming US > election, or an argument between a current First Lady and a former > First > Lady. I'd like to see "Nancy" roll up her shirt sleeves and get in > there and fight for biotech progress. This might be a good strategy to pursue. However, Nancy always had more in common politically with Michael Reagan than with Ron Jr., she was always very right-to-life. That being said, I can't say that I am all that upset over the restrictions on government funding for stem cell research, from a libertarian point of view. There are 78 cell lines available for public funding research, and in the 3 years since Bush's restrictions, the private sector has produced about 100 more with private funds outside the scope of government controls. It looks to me like the private sector is taking up the slack fine, especially with the hundreds of millions of dollars in funding coming from the Hughes Medical Foundation. Getting the public sector out of paying for medical research is ultimately okay with me if the private sector is ageeable to taking it on. Bush's limits are also motivating research into ways to produce stem cell lines without using an embryo, which from an ethical standpoint, everyone should be happy with. While I support human testing, the humans being tested upon must have an informed choice in the matter. Embryos, by definition, do not, and I'm opposed to fictional persons, aka corporations, being able to own (or destroy) human beings that they create. Thus, a more ethical use of resources would focus on how private cell lines are treated by private groups, establishing a system of guardians ad leitem to speak for those who can't speak for themselves, and if any research results in production of living human beings, such beings must be provided for by trusts, set up by their creators, with both Trustee and Protector being named individuals, natural persons, who are outside the influence of the creating corporation. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Aug 10 18:26:21 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 14:26:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Laura Bush Defends George Bush's StemCell Views Message-ID: <137310-220048210182621361@M2W060.mail2web.com> From: Mike Lorrey --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5652274/ > >>This very well could become a definitive issue for the upcoming US >>election, or an argument between a current First Lady and a former >>First >>Lady. I'd like to see "Nancy" roll up her shirt sleeves and get in >>there and fight for biotech progress. >This might be a good strategy to pursue. However, Nancy always had more >in common politically with Michael Reagan than with Ron Jr., she was >always very right-to-life. ... >Thus, a more ethical use of resources would focus on how private cell >lines are treated by private groups, establishing a system of guardians >ad leitem to speak for those who can't speak for themselves, and if any >research results in production of living human beings, such beings must >be provided for by trusts, set up by their creators, with both Trustee >and Protector being named individuals, natural persons, who are outside >the influence of the creating corporation. The election, at this point in time, is between two parties. The election very well may be about just a few issues that are transhumanist in scope. This is what I am focusing in on. In a perfect world, I would not be writing about 20th Century politics, as my mind would be elsehwere in more intelligent and prosperous conversation. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jcorb at irishbroadband.net Tue Aug 10 19:31:29 2004 From: jcorb at irishbroadband.net (J Corbally) Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 20:31:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] House-warming Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040810202958.01f35978@pop3.irishbroadband.ie> >Message: 15 >Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 12:13:34 -0400 >From: David Lubkin >Subject: [extropy-chat] House-warming >To: exI chat list >Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040810112951.03c32ac8 at unreasonable.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > >After the fun we had at my Newtonmas party (beginning at 2 PM, the last >group left at 2 AM), I was intent on a successor in the spring. Life >intruded, but I'm ready now. I'm in a new house -- not set-up to my >satisfaction, but good enough for a gathering of extropians. One of these days (soon)...... :) James... From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Aug 11 14:57:23 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 07:57:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> Forwarded from Stewart Brand from the Long Foundation: >Birthrates are plummeting worldwide. Already half the world has >"sub-replacement" birthrates. The dearth of babies coming means the makeup >of human populations is about to change drastically, and that will affect >everything. Radical population increase defined the 20th century; radical >population decrease could well define our current century. This form of >decrease---losing the young and keeping the old--- is something humanity >has never experienced before. > >"The Depopulation Problem," Phillip Longman, Friday, August 13, 7pm, Fort >Mason Conference Center, San Francisco. Doors open for coffee and books >at 7pm; lecture is promptly at 8pm. Special showing of Robert Frank's >1969 film "Liferaft Earth" at 7:15pm. You may want to come early to be >sure of a seat. Admission is free (donation of $10 very welcome, not >required). > >Phillip Longman, author of the excellent new book, THE EMPTY CRADLE, is a >senior fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington, DC. His book >will be on sale at the talk. > >"Demography is destiny," as they say. Every single 20-year-old of 2023 is >already born---as is, where is. We were the first humans to experience a >global doubling of population in a single lifetime, and now we learn it >was the last doubling. It turned out to be urbanization that stopped >exponential population growth (half the world now lives in cities). So >far we have no idea what will stop exponential population decrease. > >This is one of a monthly series of Seminars About Long-term Thinking, >given every second Friday at Fort Mason, organized by The Long Now >Foundation. Future speakers in the series include Danny Hillis, Paul >Hawken, Michael West, Ken Dychtwald, Laurie Anderson, and Jared >Diamond. If you would like to be notified by email of forthcoming talks, >please contact Simone Davalos--- simone at longnow.org, 415-561-6582. > >You are welcome to forward this note to anyone you think might be interested. > > --Stewart Brand > >-- >Stewart Brand >The Long Now Foundation - http://www.longnow.org >Seminars: http://www.longnow.org/10klibrary/Seminars.htm Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 13:15:44 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 22:45:44 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc0408110615214884a4@mail.gmail.com> I would have called it "DePopulation Bomb", but that's probably why no one asks me to speak anywhere :-) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * ----- Original Message ----- From: Natasha Vita-More Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 07:57:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org, art-tac at yahoogroups.com Forwarded from Stewart Brand from the Long Foundation: Birthrates are plummeting worldwide. Already half the world has "sub-replacement" birthrates. The dearth of babies coming means the makeup of human populations is about to change drastically, and that will affect everything. Radical population increase defined the 20th century; radical population decrease could well define our current century. This form of decrease---losing the young and keeping the old--- is something humanity has never experienced before. "The Depopulation Problem," Phillip Longman, Friday, August 13, 7pm, Fort Mason Conference Center, San Francisco. Doors open for coffee and books at 7pm; lecture is promptly at 8pm. Special showing of Robert Frank's 1969 film "Liferaft Earth" at 7:15pm. You may want to come early to be sure of a seat. Admission is free (donation of $10 very welcome, not required). Phillip Longman, author of the excellent new book, THE EMPTY CRADLE, is a senior fellow at the New America Foundation in Washington, DC. His book will be on sale at the talk. "Demography is destiny," as they say. Every single 20-year-old of 2023 is already born---as is, where is. We were the first humans to experience a global doubling of population in a single lifetime, and now we learn it was the last doubling. It turned out to be urbanization that stopped exponential population growth (half the world now lives in cities). So far we have no idea what will stop exponential population decrease. This is one of a monthly series of Seminars About Long-term Thinking, given every second Friday at Fort Mason, organized by The Long Now Foundation. Future speakers in the series include Danny Hillis, Paul Hawken, Michael West, Ken Dychtwald, Laurie Anderson, and Jared Diamond. If you would like to be notified by email of forthcoming talks, please contact Simone Davalos--- simone at longnow.org, 415-561-6582. You are welcome to forward this note to anyone you think might be interested. --Stewart Brand -- Stewart Brand The Long Now Foundation - http://www.longnow.org Seminars: http://www.longnow.org/10klibrary/Seminars.htm Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc________________________________ http://www.natasha.cc________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org From dwish at indco.net Wed Aug 11 13:30:19 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:30:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Olympics' digital security unprecedented Message-ID: <200408111239.i7BCdRS9019645@br549.indconet.com> Checkout the security at Athens! http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/08/10/olympics.security.ap/index.html Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Aug 11 13:40:57 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:40:57 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <134C6244-EB9C-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 11 Aug 2004, at 16:57, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Forwarded from Stewart Brand from the Long Foundation: > Birthrates are plummeting worldwide.? Already half the world has > "sub-replacement" birthrates. The dearth of babies coming means the > makeup of human populations is about to change drastically, and that > will affect everything.? Hey Natasha: How reliable are these statistics? I thought population GLOBALLY was still going up, even if we in the West generally don't have children anymore. I thought even in the USA there was still positive population growth. Am I misremembering all those figures. This seems a little like hype to sell a book. Am I wrong? best, patrick From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 14:15:26 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:15:26 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <134C6244-EB9C-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> <134C6244-EB9C-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:40:57 +0200, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > How reliable are these statistics? I thought population GLOBALLY was > still going up, even if we in the West generally don't have children > anymore. I thought even in the USA there was still positive population > growth. Am I misremembering all those figures. > > This seems a little like hype to sell a book. Am I wrong? > > best, patrick > These projections come from the U.S. Census Bureau and are pretty reliable. And yes, the USA is projected to increase in population. They don't really know why the US is different. Suggestions?? See my post of 4th August on this subject, where I commented - Looks like the US just has to continue as normal and wait for the rest of the world to dwindle away over the next 50 years. BillK From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Aug 11 14:39:24 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:39:24 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> <134C6244-EB9C-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <3D54CFCF-EBA4-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 11 Aug 2004, at 16:15, BillK wrote: > These projections come from the U.S. Census Bureau and are pretty > reliable. > And yes, the USA is projected to increase in population. They don't > really know why the US is different. Suggestions?? Where is the growth rate occurring? With immigrant families? > See my post of 4th August on this subject, where I commented - > Looks like the US just has to continue as normal and wait for > the rest of the world to dwindle away over the next 50 years. You mean the Europe, Australasia, Japan and a few other countries. Not the rest of the World. I think you'll find that China and India and Latin America are growing just fine. And so would Africa if it wasn't' devastated by AIDS. And just not to be too picky. Australia's population, for instance, is still growing. We are just achieving it by immigration. So hopefully we'll avoid or at least mitigate some of the problems countries like Germany are going to suffer in the short-to-medium term as the result of their restrictive immigration stance. Its an interesting strategy really: save all that fuss and bother on spending on education, just ship them in once they are ready to work! best, patrick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 15:06:28 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040811150628.28180.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > These projections come from the U.S. Census Bureau and are pretty > reliable. > And yes, the USA is projected to increase in population. They don't > really know why the US is different. Suggestions?? > See my post of 4th August on this subject, where I commented - > Looks like the US just has to continue as normal and wait for > the rest of the world to dwindle away over the next 50 years. US population rises because we have more immigrants than any other nation. Period. Native born reproductive rates are generally low, though slightly above european norms, partly because of so much non-euro immigration from countries with anti-family-planning traditions (Catholic Mexicans, Cubans, and other latinos, for instance, as well as Irish) that second third and fourth generation decendants of immigrants from those countries still have cultural baggage for high birth rates. The US also tends to be more religious in general than other developed nations, which impacts reproductive rates. Mormons, for instance, don't believe in contraception or family planning (other than planning for large families). And people immigrate here in many instances because of the anti-family policies of their home governments. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 15:09:04 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 11:09:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: CNN get's more and more like Jerry Springer Message-ID: <63830-2200483111594173@M2W065.mail2web.com> This is today's headlines: MORE TOP STORIES ? Half-ton man drops 321 pounds, and still counting ? Peterson's lover describes a web of lies | Video ? CBS News' Mike Wallace cited for disorderly conduct ? Two tropical storms threaten Florida ? Sudan condemned over Darfur crisis | Video | Gallery ? Philippines' Arroyo to men: Stop kissing me ? Rick Fox, Vanessa Williams divorcing ? Police: Wedding guests eat relative Okay, the tropical storms and Venessa Williams are not Springeresque, but gee whiz, the rest of the headliners made me laugh! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From eugen at leitl.org Wed Aug 11 16:02:05 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 18:02:05 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: CNN get's more and more like Jerry Springer In-Reply-To: <63830-2200483111594173@M2W065.mail2web.com> References: <63830-2200483111594173@M2W065.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040811160205.GZ1477@leitl.org> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 11:09:04AM -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Okay, the tropical storms and Venessa Williams are not Springeresque, but > gee whiz, the rest of the headliners made me laugh! The laughter suffers a sudden death on the lips, though, if one imagines that people are actually *reading* this (with a furrowed brow), and consider it *news*... yeech. What an awful waste of human life indeed. And they don't even know what they let happen to themselves... nevermind that perpetrators of this are free and wealthy humanfolk. Ditto Olympics. WTF? There are starving postdocs out there which never make the news, while a buch of running ad-studded monkeys are personally worth megabucks, and are covered in a dedicated newspaper section. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 11 16:38:03 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:38:03 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <3D54CFCF-EBA4-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040811075612.01d6fc10@mail.earthlink.net> <134C6244-EB9C-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <3D54CFCF-EBA4-11D8-8780-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:39:24 +0200, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > On 11 Aug 2004, at 16:15, BillK wrote: > > See my post of 4th August on this subject, where I commented - > > Looks like the US just has to continue as normal and wait for > > the rest of the world to dwindle away over the next 50 years. > > You mean the Europe, Australasia, Japan and a few other countries. Not > the rest of the World. I think you'll find that China and India and > Latin America are growing just fine. And so would Africa if it wasn't' > devastated by AIDS. > > And just not to be too picky. Australia's population, for instance, is > still growing. We are just achieving it by immigration. So hopefully > we'll avoid or at least mitigate some of the problems countries like > Germany are going to suffer in the short-to-medium term as the result > of their restrictive immigration stance. Its an interesting strategy > really: save all that fuss and bother on spending on education, just > ship them in once they are ready to work! > Overall, the world population is projected to continue growing up to 2050. My comment was intended to say that the US could watch the competition dwindle away by 2050. China is projected to stop growing around 2020. It has the most rapidly aging population in the world and what new births there are, are massively skewed towards boy babies. The numbers in Australia are tiny compared with US, Europe or China. The point is that, in general, the advanced countries are projected to reduce and age their populations. It is the less-developed countries and the USA that are increasing their population. So, not much competition for the USA there. BillK From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 17:41:40 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:41:40 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: CNN get's more and more like Jerry Springer Message-ID: <236270-220048311174140849@M2W075.mail2web.com> From: Eugen Leitl >The laughter suffers a sudden death on the lips, though, >if one imagines that people are actually *reading* this (with a furrowed >brow), and consider it *news*... yeech. Yup. N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 11 17:46:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 10:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] NEWS: CNN get's more and more like Jerry Springer In-Reply-To: <63830-2200483111594173@M2W065.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040811174659.30333.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > This is today's headlines: > > MORE TOP STORIES > > ? Philippines' Arroyo to men: Stop kissing me > > Okay, the tropical storms and Venessa Williams are not Springeresque, > but gee whiz, the rest of the headliners made me laugh! Yeah, imagine if Clinton had told the women to stop giving him blow jobs... ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From live2scan at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 11 21:04:26 2004 From: live2scan at bellsouth.net (Dennis Roberts) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:04:26 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program Message-ID: <003e01c47fe6$c9730320$6101a8c0@main> Is anyone on this list familiar with JP Aerospace? I'd seen some interesting but rudimentary efforts at building a private launch capability in the past on their website. http://www.jpaerospace.com/ Went there yesterday and I was blown away by the change. If they can pull this off. "JP Spacelines" can't be too far away. I'm impressed by the use of ion propulsion, a vastly under used system. Dennis Roberts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Aug 11 21:08:19 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 17:08:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) Message-ID: <294220-2200483112181942@M2W081.mail2web.com> Pretty darn reliable. Birthrate is going down. N Original Message: ----------------- From: Patrick Wilken Patrick.Wilken at nat.uni-magdeburg.de Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:40:57 +0200 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday (for forwarding) On 11 Aug 2004, at 16:57, Natasha Vita-More wrote: > Forwarded from Stewart Brand from the Long Foundation: > Birthrates are plummeting worldwide.? Already half the world has > "sub-replacement" birthrates. The dearth of babies coming means the > makeup of human populations is about to change drastically, and that > will affect everything.? Hey Natasha: How reliable are these statistics? I thought population GLOBALLY was still going up, even if we in the West generally don't have children anymore. I thought even in the USA there was still positive population growth. Am I misremembering all those figures. This seems a little like hype to sell a book. Am I wrong? best, patrick _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Aug 11 21:16:15 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <003e01c47fe6$c9730320$6101a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20040811211615.21111.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dennis Roberts wrote: > Is anyone on this list familiar with JP Aerospace? > I'd seen some interesting but rudimentary efforts at > building a private launch capability in the past on > their website. > http://www.jpaerospace.com/ > > Went there yesterday and I was blown away by the > change. If they can pull this off. "JP Spacelines" > can't be too far away. I'm impressed by the use of > ion propulsion, a vastly under used system. I have some friends on their team. I'm not certain whether they'll be able to pull off step 3 - something light enough to float yet strong enough to withstand hypersonic velocities (even with the tradeoff: the lower in the atmosphere one goes, the more one can float to resist gravity, but the stronger the craft must be if moving fast) - but even if they can just pull off step 2 - the Dark Sky Station - that'd be rather impressive. I do think they'll get at least that far. From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Aug 12 02:10:14 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 19:10:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040811211615.21111.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002601c48011$81a9ba40$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Adrian Tymes > > http://www.jpaerospace.com/ > > > > I have some friends on their team. I'm not certain > whether they'll be able to pull off step 3 - something > light enough to float yet strong enough to withstand > hypersonic velocities... Ja, this is way cool, is it not? The forces on the craft due to high velocity is proportional to the density of the medium, so if they float way up there, then perhaps this scheme could work. Balloons can get up to where the atmosphere is less than 1% the density down here. Im pleased to see a radical new approach to an old problem. spike From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Aug 12 06:42:16 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:42:16 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <294220-2200483112181942@M2W081.mail2web.com> References: <294220-2200483112181942@M2W081.mail2web.com> Message-ID: On 11 Aug 2004, at 23:08, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Pretty darn reliable. Birthrate is going down. Its not going down everywhere. Its going down in some places. The basic result is that when women have a choice they tend to choose to have less babies. Wow. Something the demographers could never see coming when they predicted the population explosion. I wonder what other obvious points they are now missing in the predicted population implosion? best, patrick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Aug 12 07:08:10 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:38:10 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: References: <294220-2200483112181942@M2W081.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040812000863c936c8@mail.gmail.com> Do you think this (depopulation caused by people choosing to have less children) is a function of the cost of having children? In the west, and probably in most poorer countries except where children can pay their own way, cost of raising children plus easy reproductive control (actually a lot of people had this already using various native methods, you can also include infanticide here) means people will have less children. An economist might predict this. I'm assuming readers understand the fact that all the people of the world understand how babies are made, and make economically driven decisions about family sizes. The same economist might look at the looming greying population problem, and say that it'll turn around (with lag) because the value of money compared to human labor will change, with more money buying less labor, because we'll have more people with money and without the ability to labor. So, children (-> young teens -> yound adults) will be able to earn more, and become profitable again (the way they were for thousands of years). You would predict worldwide labor shortages and subsequent labor and services price rises to lead to relatively unsubtle subsidisation of breeding and child rearing, eventually. Personally as part of Gen X I like this scenario, given that the boomers will be wanting services (my services!) and have the money. Maybe our parents are spending the inheritance, but we get it one way or another :-) The economist from the preceding paragraphs is short-sighted of course. None of the analysis takes into account indefinite healthy life extension, or robots, for example. And I'm not even going to mention MNT... (oops, sorry) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:42:16 +0200, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > On 11 Aug 2004, at 23:08, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > > > Pretty darn reliable. Birthrate is going down. > > Its not going down everywhere. Its going down in some places. > > The basic result is that when women have a choice they tend to choose > to have less babies. Wow. Something the demographers could never see > coming when they predicted the population explosion. I wonder what > other obvious points they are now missing in the predicted population > implosion? > > > > best, patrick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From eugen at leitl.org Thu Aug 12 07:38:37 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:38:37 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040811211615.21111.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <003e01c47fe6$c9730320$6101a8c0@main> <20040811211615.21111.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040812073837.GK1477@leitl.org> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 02:16:15PM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > I have some friends on their team. I'm not certain > whether they'll be able to pull off step 3 - something > light enough to float yet strong enough to withstand This isn't the issue (though your hull erosion through plasma will make the craft very, very short-lived), the question is where do you want to get the thrust from? Who's going to build the microwave stations on the ground to track the craft as it goes around the Earth? How many newtons thrust do you get from 10 kg thruster, and how much lift capacity in 50 km height does that need, what is the crossection of the hull, and the drag? And does anyone have a fat airfoil for hypersonic regime which provides the lift? > hypersonic velocities (even with the tradeoff: the > lower in the atmosphere one goes, the more one can > float to resist gravity, but the stronger the craft > must be if moving fast) - but even if they can just > pull off step 2 - the Dark Sky Station - that'd be > rather impressive. I do think they'll get at least > that far. The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Thu Aug 12 08:01:49 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:01:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <002601c48011$81a9ba40$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040811211615.21111.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> <002601c48011$81a9ba40$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040812080149.GP1477@leitl.org> On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 07:10:14PM -0700, Spike wrote: > Ja, this is way cool, is it not? The forces on the craft What about plasma wear? How good are you with hypersonic fat foils which provide lift? > due to high velocity is proportional to the density of Where does the high velocity come from? There is no rocket onboard. > the medium, so if they float way up there, then perhaps > this scheme could work. Balloons can get up to where the > atmosphere is less than 1% the density down here. Im Lift gives you zero horizontal velocity component. It shaves off maybe 10% off energy costs due to lack of drag. > pleased to see a radical new approach to an old problem. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Aug 12 07:55:00 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:55:00 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040812000863c936c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <294220-2200483112181942@M2W081.mail2web.com> <710b78fc040812000863c936c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12 Aug 2004, at 09:08, Emlyn wrote: > Do you think this (depopulation caused by people choosing to have less > children) is a function of the cost of having children? There surely is a cost to having children, and people are clearly choosing to have fewer. However, what needs to be emphasized is that it's women making these decisions. Its generally regarded in developmental agencies that one of the most potent forms of birth control are the micro-credit loans that allow women in developing countries some form of economic independence. The shock-horror headline "World Birth Rates Plummet" could be re-written "Global Female Empowerment". Its interesting to speculate which headline is preferred and why. best, patrick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 16:49:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040812000863c936c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040812164932.33842.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > Do you think this (depopulation caused by people choosing to have > less children) is a function of the cost of having children? This is not a foregone conclusion. China has over a billion people, all living under a one child law, allowing no choice to mothers, and that one child rate seriously skews the worldwide average. I would instead say that a woman's tendency to reproduce is proportional to how expensive *governments* make child rearing, via either statutory limitations on child bearing, or indirectly via burdensome tax regiemes that raise the cost of living to excessively high levels. Germany, for instance, has one of the most costly tax regiemes, and a terrible reproductive rate. Here in the US, outside of immigration, the population growth is better because our tax regieme isn't as severe, though that varies from state to state. It would be interesting to study reproductive rates in US states relative to their state and local tax burden.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 16:56:59 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040812080149.GP1477@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040812165659.31862.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Aug 11, 2004 at 07:10:14PM -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Ja, this is way cool, is it not? The forces on the craft > > What about plasma wear? How good are you with hypersonic fat foils > which provide lift? Plasma wear occurs because hulls are not actively charged. Since the vehicle is receiving microwave power, and using ION propulsion, it can also actively charge its hull to help reduce plasma erosion, and minimize shock waves at the same time. The foils don't need hypersonic capacity. The indicated air speed at those altitudes is entirely subsonic even at orbital velocities. > > > due to high velocity is proportional to the density of > > Where does the high velocity come from? There is no rocket onboard. ION propulsion powered by beamed microwave energy. > > > the medium, so if they float way up there, then perhaps > > this scheme could work. Balloons can get up to where the > > atmosphere is less than 1% the density down here. Im > > Lift gives you zero horizontal velocity component. It shaves off > maybe 10% off energy costs due to lack of drag. The ion propulsion is for use in high atmosphere. You don't need a lot of thrust because at such altitudes your indicated air speed is so low. You can be going mach 24 relative to the ground but your indicated air speed at 350,000 feet is going to be less than 100 mph. Therefore, all you need is a lot of time to thrust.. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 16:58:44 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <003e01c47fe6$c9730320$6101a8c0@main> Message-ID: <20040812165844.48399.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dennis Roberts wrote: > Is anyone on this list familiar with JP Aerospace? I'd seen some > interesting but rudimentary efforts at building a private launch > capability in the past on their website. > http://www.jpaerospace.com/ > > Went there yesterday and I was blown away by the change. If they can > pull this off. "JP Spacelines" can't be too far away. I'm impressed > by the use of ion propulsion, a vastly under used system. Their concept is possibly the most imaginative I've seen. I started having similar ideas over the past several years as I've been playing with suborbital simulations in X-plane. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Aug 12 17:02:51 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:02:51 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reason Magazine Online on TransVision 2004 In-Reply-To: References: <294220-2200483112181942@M2W081.mail2web.com> <710b78fc040812000863c936c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: http://www.reason.com/rb/rb081104.shtml Regards, MB From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 17:02:28 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:02:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) Message-ID: In the US, the tax burden decreases with each additional child. So theoretically, the higher the local tax burden, the greater the tax incentive would be to have children (as the deductions would be more valuable). Additionally, other tax-like expenses like healthcare do not increase with additional children. So where there is a large incremental cost for 1 child, a 2nd and 3rd child do not each cost as much as the previous child. I suspect that the decreasing birthrate in developed nations can also be caused by the prolonged adolescence where it make take someone 25 years to complete college and postgraduate work prior to beginning a career. This means that a woman is not ready to have children until 28-35 or so. This would limit the number of children possible to further lower the birthrate. BAL >From: Mike Lorrey >To: Emlyn , ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday >(for forwarding) >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 09:49:32 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Emlyn wrote: > > > Do you think this (depopulation caused by people choosing to have > > less children) is a function of the cost of having children? > >This is not a foregone conclusion. China has over a billion people, all >living under a one child law, allowing no choice to mothers, and that >one child rate seriously skews the worldwide average. > >I would instead say that a woman's tendency to reproduce is >proportional to how expensive *governments* make child rearing, via >either statutory limitations on child bearing, or indirectly via >burdensome tax regiemes that raise the cost of living to excessively >high levels. Germany, for instance, has one of the most costly tax >regiemes, and a terrible reproductive rate. Here in the US, outside of >immigration, the population growth is better because our tax regieme >isn't as severe, though that varies from state to state. It would be >interesting to study reproductive rates in US states relative to their >state and local tax burden.... > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Aug 12 17:31:09 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:31:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040812173109.55902.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > In the US, the tax burden decreases with each > additional child. So > theoretically, the higher the local tax burden, the > greater the tax > incentive would be to have children (as the > deductions would be more > valuable). > > Additionally, other tax-like expenses like > healthcare do not increase with > additional children. So where there is a large > incremental cost for 1 child, > a 2nd and 3rd child do not each cost as much as the > previous child. Arguably true, depending on what you call "tax-like". Grocerices, daipers, hospital visits, education (especially college), et al certainly do increase with additional children. Many who have the resources to raise one child well could not raise five to what most people consider acceptable quality. (Not simultaneously, anyway.) > I suspect that the decreasing birthrate in developed > nations can also be > caused by the prolonged adolescence where it make > take someone 25 years to > complete college and postgraduate work prior to > beginning a career. This > means that a woman is not ready to have children > until 28-35 or so. This > would limit the number of children possible to > further lower the birthrate. This is not true of all females in the developed world - although the opposite end, girls who have children while still teenagers themselves, is seen as a social problem to be reduced and, hopefully, eventually eliminated. From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Aug 12 17:35:35 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:35:35 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reason Magazine Online on TransVision 2004 Message-ID: <120750-220048412173535291@M2W055.mail2web.com> From: MB mbb386 at main.nc.us http://www.reason.com/rb/rb081104.shtml Too much cyborg and not enough transhuman. I'm not a huge fan of cyborg matrial, as it, as Ron says, puts people off. I prefer the transhuman approach to upgrading the human body. Bty, Stelarc was great. N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Aug 12 17:48:55 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040812073837.GK1477@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > Who's going to build the microwave > stations on the ground to > track the craft as it goes around the Earth? I generally agree with most of your objections here, but this one can easily be solved: solar panels (or cells on the craft's skin), or a fleet of microwave satellites launched by traditional means. > The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as > SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own right. If they can solve the engineering issues of floating serious payload at high altitudes...floating cities, anyone? From reason at longevitymeme.org Thu Aug 12 18:09:49 2004 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:09:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reason Magazine Online on TransVision 2004 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kip Werking wrote a long report on TV2004 that I've excerpted here: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000205.php Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From kurt at metatechnica.com Thu Aug 12 18:22:18 2004 From: kurt at metatechnica.com (Kurt Schoedel) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:22:18 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The DEpopulation Bomb Message-ID: Has anyone bothered to point out to Phillip Longman that the Depopulation bomb is not a problem because by 2050 or so, we should certainly have the SENS treatments to irradicate aging? Kurt Schoedel MetaTechnica From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 18:48:15 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) Message-ID: >From: Adrian Tymes >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday >(for forwarding) >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 10:31:09 -0700 (PDT) >Arguably true, depending on what you call "tax-like". >Grocerices, daipers, hospital visits, education >(especially college), et al certainly do increase with >additional children. Many who have the resources to >raise one child well could not raise five to what most >people consider acceptable quality. (Not >simultaneously, anyway.) It's true that 2 children are more expensive to raise than 1, but the cost of two children is not twice that of one. I only speak from theory as I'm still raising just one, but it seems that a lot of the initial investments (cribs, furniture, expanded home) and recurring costs (healthcare, groceries, clothes) don't increase linearly with each new child. Some of these incremental costs can be largely or completely offset by tax credits (I think 1-2k/child in the US). >This is not true of all females in the developed world >- although the opposite end, girls who have children >while still teenagers themselves, is seen as a social >problem to be reduced and, hopefully, eventually >eliminated. Though not true of all females, I think that the average age of first mothers increases as a country becomes more and more developed. The US is a bit of an exception because the influx of immigration allows for continued growth. BAL From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Aug 12 20:03:11 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040812200311.98789.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > >From: Adrian Tymes > > >Many who have the resources > to > >raise one child well could not raise five to what > most > >people consider acceptable quality. (Not > >simultaneously, anyway.) > > It's true that 2 children are more expensive to > raise than 1, but the cost > of two children is not twice that of one. True. But it doesn't have to be twice, it only has to be more. One only has a certain amount of resources to spend, and if one child already accounts for a significant fraction of that... From reason at longevitymeme.org Thu Aug 12 20:03:14 2004 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:03:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reason Magazine Online on TransVision 2004 Message-ID: <200408121503.AA633995496@longevitymeme.org> Here's another one from a chap who, I feel, totally misses the point of the exercise - wearing the arts blinders and blundering through reality... http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20040812.html Reason Founder, Longevity Meme ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- From: "Reason" Reply-To: reason at longevitymeme.org,ExI chat list Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:09:49 -0700 >Kip Werking wrote a long report on TV2004 that I've excerpted here: > >http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000205.php > >Reason >Founder, Longevity Meme >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ______________ ______________ ______________ ______________ Sent via the KillerWebMail system at longevitymeme.org From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 20:14:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040812201451.34419.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > In the US, the tax burden decreases with each additional child. So > theoretically, the higher the local tax burden, the greater the tax > incentive would be to have children (as the deductions would be more > valuable). The problem with this logic is that income does not increase with each additional child, so for a given income, there is a maximum tolerable number of children. The more income that gets taken in taxes, the fewer this number is. If a four child family with zero taxes gets a tax increase to 25% of income, that family can afford three children. At 50% they could afford two, and one at 75% tax burden. Furthermore, it can also be said that the tax burden DOESN'T decrease proportionately to the incremental cost of raising each child. If the per child deduction does not meet or exceed the per child rearing cost, there is an increasing tax burden per child. Finally, the per child tax deduction only applies to income taxes. Child related consumption causes sales tax payments, and each child's bedroom in a home increases property tax payments. My theory deals with the whole tax burden, not just income taxes. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 20:18:46 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: <20040812200311.98789.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040812201846.48712.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Brian Lee wrote: > > >From: Adrian Tymes > > > > >Many who have the resources > > to > > >raise one child well could not raise five to what > > most > > >people consider acceptable quality. (Not > > >simultaneously, anyway.) > > > > It's true that 2 children are more expensive to > > raise than 1, but the cost > > of two children is not twice that of one. > > True. But it doesn't have to be twice, it only has to > be more. One only has a certain amount of resources > to spend, and if one child already accounts for a > significant fraction of that... Keep in mind, also, that today you pay for day-care on a per child basis. Used to be you typically had an unpaid partner/employee at home to eliminate those expenses... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 20:27:02 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:27:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) Message-ID: >From: Mike Lorrey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday >(for forwarding) >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:14:51 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > In the US, the tax burden decreases with each additional child. So > > theoretically, the higher the local tax burden, the greater the tax > > incentive would be to have children (as the deductions would be more > > valuable). > >The problem with this logic is that income does not increase with each >additional child, so for a given income, there is a maximum tolerable >number of children. The more income that gets taken in taxes, the fewer >this number is. If a four child family with zero taxes gets a tax >increase to 25% of income, that family can afford three children. At >50% they could afford two, and one at 75% tax burden. >Furthermore, it can also be said that the tax burden DOESN'T decrease >proportionately to the incremental cost of raising each child. If the >per child deduction does not meet or exceed the per child rearing cost, >there is an increasing tax burden per child. I was trying to point out that if a child allows for a set deduction (lets say $3000) then the value of that deduction increases with the increasing tax burden. Under a 25% marginal rate it's $750 but under a 40% rate it's worth $1200. Of course the family would also be paying more in taxes, but the value of each child would increase, so you get to a certain tax percentage where the value of the deduction is greater than the cost of the child and your kids become, effectively, free under a more oppressive tax burden where they would cost more under a low tax burden. >Finally, the per child tax deduction only applies to income taxes. >Child related consumption causes sales tax payments, and each child's >bedroom in a home increases property tax payments. My theory deals with >the whole tax burden, not just income taxes. I'm also referring to property taxes. My point about the marginal cost of each child includes property. For example. If you live in a 1 bedroom apt and have a child, you'll want more space. So you get a 3 bedroom house or 2 bedroom apt or whatever. This increases property tax and forces new housing expenses. If you have a 2nd or 3rd child, this does not require more space (just get some bunk beds) so no additional property taxes. I think it boils down to certain "fixed" child rearing costs such as: housing, transportation health insurance public education that don't vary linearly with the number of children (you end up with stages where 1-3 it is fixed, then 4-6 or whatever) and then "variable" costs (as kids increase and age, these costs go up) such as: food water and finally mixed (can be shared amond kids) clothing entertainment So you do end up with additional sales tax for food, clothing, but for the big ticket items like houses and cars you don't really have an incremental cost between 1 and 3 kids (maybe even 4-5 if you start squeezing them in). BAL From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 12 20:48:45 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:48:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040812204845.87364.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > > >From: Mike Lorrey > > > >The problem with this logic is that income does not increase with > each > >additional child, so for a given income, there is a maximum > tolerable > >number of children. The more income that gets taken in taxes, the > fewer > >this number is. If a four child family with zero taxes gets a tax > >increase to 25% of income, that family can afford three children. At > >50% they could afford two, and one at 75% tax burden. > >Furthermore, it can also be said that the tax burden DOESN'T > decrease > >proportionately to the incremental cost of raising each child. If > the > >per child deduction does not meet or exceed the per child rearing > cost, > >there is an increasing tax burden per child. > > I was trying to point out that if a child allows for a set deduction > (lets say $3000) then the value of that deduction increases with the > increasing tax burden. How do you argue that? The deduction comes off the front end of income. The more you earn, the less that deduction is worth because it is a decreasing percentage of your income. Ergo, if you are in a higher tax bracket, any given deduction is worth less UNLESS it happens to drop you into a lower bracket. > Under a 25% marginal rate it's $750 but under a 40% rate it's > worth $1200. Of course the family would also be paying more in taxes, > but > the value of each child would increase, so you get to a certain tax > percentage where the value of the deduction is greater than the cost > of the > child and your kids become, effectively, free under a more oppressive > tax burden where they would cost more under a low tax burden. Again, the problem with this is that it is only beneficial to have additional children if the cost of rearing a child is equal to or less than the deduction. A family may be able to afford another child more than without the deduction IF they stay in the same tax bracket. The deduction may be worth more in the end living in a more oppressive tax regieme, but the problem is that the overall tax burden is still a higher barrier to entry than under a low tax regieme. You're picking nits but ignoring the swarm. > > >Finally, the per child tax deduction only applies to income taxes. > >Child related consumption causes sales tax payments, and each child's > >bedroom in a home increases property tax payments. My theory deals > >with the whole tax burden, not just income taxes. > > I'm also referring to property taxes. My point about the marginal > cost of each child includes property. For example. If you live in > a 1 bedroom apt and have a child, you'll want more space. So you > get a 3 bedroom house or 2 bedroom apt or whatever. > This increases property tax and forces new housing expenses. If you > have a 2nd or 3rd child, this does not require more space > (just get some bunk beds) so no additional property taxes. That is a strategy, but one that few families engage in. Government also tends to frown on maximizing bunking, because since children's education gets paid for by property taxes, they tend to impose limits on occupants per room in either zoning, building, DCYF or other community ordinances. While you can decrease your costs on each additional child, it is still an increasing burden that does not encourage child rearing unless the costs are less than deductions allowed per child. > > I think it boils down to certain "fixed" child rearing costs such as: > housing, > transportation > health insurance > public education > that don't vary linearly with the number of children (you end up with > stages where 1-3 it is fixed, then 4-6 or whatever) Public education may not have much variance (except of course that additional children put additional burden on the school system as a whole, which raises property taxes). However, public schools are not the be all and end all. You have day-care expenses on a per child basis, summer camp, and if you send them to private school, you pay property taxes PLUS private school tuition on each child. Finally, college education costs are distinctly on a per child basis, as is auto insurance once the kids start driving. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Aug 12 21:09:43 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:09:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reason Magazine Online on TransVision 2004 In-Reply-To: <200408121503.AA633995496@longevitymeme.org> Message-ID: <20040812210943.11274.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Reason ." wrote: > Here's another one from a chap who, I feel, totally > misses the point of the exercise - wearing the arts > blinders and blundering through reality... > > http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20040812.html I had the opposite reaction to his article. He's arguing that we should be doing more doing and less talking - to him, we're the ones wearing the blinders and blundering. And then there's this: > Scientists need to embrace the reality of human > interaction and start to include marketing as an > important part of transhumanist dialog. Body > modification for example is successful not just > because it's "right", but also because it's cool and > accessible. "Memetic engineering" overlaps "marketing" so much that the two could arguably be called almost one and the same, just different takes on the same idea. We do not envision, say, augmented reality getting in the way of reality with a mass of mundane problems - interference with the existing social uses of the eyes chief among them - and yet this is one of the things keeping this idea from being accepted. It, itself, is a problem that needs solving, and altering or limiting the users isn't a viable solution (in fact, the requirement for said alterations or limits is a large part of the problem). From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Aug 12 22:51:51 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 17:51:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) References: Message-ID: Don;t forget that self-employed people are able to employ their children at any age that t hey are reasonable able to do the work. They do not fall under wage/hour regulations either. Having many children when you are self-employed can greatly increase productivity while keeping costs down. In this case, having many children becomes a huge benefit! :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lee" To: Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 3:27 PM Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday (for forwarding) > > > > >From: Mike Lorrey > >To: ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday > >(for forwarding) > >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:14:51 -0700 (PDT) > > > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > > > In the US, the tax burden decreases with each additional child. So > > > theoretically, the higher the local tax burden, the greater the tax > > > incentive would be to have children (as the deductions would be more > > > valuable). > > > >The problem with this logic is that income does not increase with each > >additional child, so for a given income, there is a maximum tolerable > >number of children. The more income that gets taken in taxes, the fewer > >this number is. If a four child family with zero taxes gets a tax > >increase to 25% of income, that family can afford three children. At > >50% they could afford two, and one at 75% tax burden. > >Furthermore, it can also be said that the tax burden DOESN'T decrease > >proportionately to the incremental cost of raising each child. If the > >per child deduction does not meet or exceed the per child rearing cost, > >there is an increasing tax burden per child. > > I was trying to point out that if a child allows for a set deduction (lets > say $3000) then the value of that deduction increases with the increasing > tax burden. Under a 25% marginal rate it's $750 but under a 40% rate it's > worth $1200. Of course the family would also be paying more in taxes, but > the value of each child would increase, so you get to a certain tax > percentage where the value of the deduction is greater than the cost of the > child and your kids become, effectively, free under a more oppressive tax > burden where they would cost more under a low tax burden. > > >Finally, the per child tax deduction only applies to income taxes. > >Child related consumption causes sales tax payments, and each child's > >bedroom in a home increases property tax payments. My theory deals with > >the whole tax burden, not just income taxes. > > I'm also referring to property taxes. My point about the marginal cost of > each child includes property. For example. If you live in a 1 bedroom apt > and have a child, you'll want more space. So you get a 3 bedroom house or 2 > bedroom apt or whatever. This increases property tax and forces new housing > expenses. If you have a 2nd or 3rd child, this does not require more space > (just get some bunk beds) so no additional property taxes. > > I think it boils down to certain "fixed" child rearing costs such as: > housing, > transportation > health insurance > public education > that don't vary linearly with the number of children (you end up with stages > where 1-3 it is fixed, then 4-6 or whatever) > > and then "variable" costs (as kids increase and age, these costs go up) such > as: > food > water > > and finally mixed (can be shared amond kids) > clothing > entertainment > > So you do end up with additional sales tax for food, clothing, but for the > big ticket items like houses and cars you don't really have an incremental > cost between 1 and 3 kids (maybe even 4-5 if you start squeezing them in). > > BAL > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 03:02:26 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:32:26 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? Message-ID: <710b78fc040812200259035993@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I've got a friend here who is looking for objective information regarding Fahrenheit 911, because he found it compelling but obviously slanted. He's wanting basically to sort the good stuff from the crap, in the face of a torrent of "it's all crap/made up" vs "its gospel" coming from all sides. Does anyone know of an objective examination of that movie? ie: non party aligned, actually checking the facts, mind not made up in advance kind of investigation? I asked the great god Google, but google is kind of bombed by the partisan stuff just now. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 13 04:04:22 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 21:04:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040812200259035993@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000801c480ea$9de52800$6401a8c0@SHELLY> >...Emlyn ... > > I've got a friend here who is looking for objective information > regarding Fahrenheit 911... > > Does anyone know of an objective examination of that movie? ie: non > party aligned, actually checking the facts... Emlyn Emlyn, F911 is the wrong medium to be looking for facts: its a comedy. Michael Moore is a comic. Look at his previous works, the very funny and entertaining, incredibly bitter quasi-documentary dark comedies "Roger and Me" and "Pets or Meat". Rush Limbaugh is a comedian too, as is Michael Savage and the rest. Foxnews is entertainment for the masses. CNN is bitter entertainment for the masses. We asked for it, we got it. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 13 04:53:16 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:53:16 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: <000801c480ea$9de52800$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <019101c480f1$72422e30$852c2dcb@homepc> Spike wrote: > >...Emlyn > ... > > > > I've got a friend here who is looking for objective information > > regarding Fahrenheit 911... > > > > Does anyone know of an objective examination of that movie? ie: non > > party aligned, actually checking the facts... Emlyn > > > Emlyn, F911 is the wrong medium to be looking for facts: > its a comedy. I saw it. I didn't find it funny. I expected to see propaganda and I did. But that doesn't mean it doesn't contain checkable facts. Have you seen it Spike? Did anyone see anything in it that was factually inaccurate? If so, what? Brett From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 13 05:57:12 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 22:57:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <019101c480f1$72422e30$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <001101c480fa$63138720$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? > > > > > > > I've got a friend here who is looking for objective information > > > regarding Fahrenheit 911... > > > > > Did anyone see anything in it that was factually inaccurate? If so, > what? Brett Brett, its all in the editing. I don't know of anything in these presentations that is factually inaccurate. Rather it is in what the editor chooses to include and what not to include. Our news sources on this planet are telling stories that are factually accurate and simultaneously extremely biased. Our entertainment does the same. Eventually the two media merge into indistinguishable unity. spike From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 13 06:53:58 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:53:58 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040812200259035993@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040812200259035993@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:32:26 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > Does anyone know of an objective examination of that movie? ie: non > party aligned, actually checking the facts, mind not made up in > advance kind of investigation? > Try BillK From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 13 09:51:58 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 19:51:58 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: <001101c480fa$63138720$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <01f501c4811b$2cb6e3e0$852c2dcb@homepc> > > Brett Paatsch > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? > > > > > > > > > > I've got a friend here who is looking for objective information > > > > regarding Fahrenheit 911... > > > > > > > > Did anyone see anything in it that was factually inaccurate? If so, > > what? Brett > > Brett, its all in the editing. I don't know of anything in > these presentations that is factually inaccurate. Rather > it is in what the editor chooses to include and what not > to include. Our news sources on this planet are telling > stories that are factually accurate and simultaneously > extremely biased. Our entertainment does the same. > Eventually the two media merge into indistinguishable > unity. spike Politicians of all persuasions also use selective editting. The truth but not the whole truth is part of the game. A lie or factual error is almost too sloppy because it can get caught - or that once seems to me to be the case anyway - maybe voters are getting sloppier and more gullible (or maybe I am getting more intolerant of damn fools). I'm beginning to suspect the populace is getting so cynical and disinterested that now even blatant lying by politicians can be gotten away with. Because anything is to be preferred by believers than the exercise of critical faculties. George W Bush is the encumbent president of the US. Either he or Kerry will have the power of that role for four years. Michael Moore has fired a propaganda salvo at Bush only. Everybody has an agenda. I don't care about Michael Moore either way. I am interested in the critical faculties of the US voter though because the US voter will vote for a President that will have the power to stuff up a lot more than just the US. If the only choices were Calligula and Nero and I couldn't vote I'd still want to see those that could vote to do so for the least damaging option. US voters will vote for their own interests - I accept that - but it would be good if they'd vote in an enlightened way as having a moron in charge in Rome can make an even bigger mess for those of us that live in the provinces. How can the US voter be enlightened - he or she can at least try to think. On September 11 a lot of arguable innocent people got killed. That's not new in the world. Its just new on the US homeland. But now there is an election about to happen and anyone who has the opportunity to vote with their wits after engaging with the issues and doesn't take the trouble will not in my opinion be able to claim they are completely innocent next time. Not all the terrorists are in the other countries. Domestic politicians can use terror for their purposes too. To some extent democracies do get the governments they deserve. American's seems likely to deserve either Bush or Kerry. (And Australian's Howard or Latham). But which? What could be more sensible than considering *reasons* for voting for one over the other and articulating those reasons? This is a rant, maybe, but I think I'll post it anyway. Brett From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 13 12:43:07 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:43:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <019101c480f1$72422e30$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040813124307.1712.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > > I saw it. I didn't find it funny. I expected to see propaganda and > I did. But that doesn't mean it doesn't contain checkable facts. > > Have you seen it Spike? > > Did anyone see anything in it that was factually inaccurate? If so, > what? Propaganda like this is more a matter of what was left out rather than what was put in. If I made a movie only of right wing racist white skinheads shooting guns, and presented it as the face of the American gun culture, every fact presented would be checkable, except of course the ones I left out. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Aug 13 14:03:28 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:03:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reason Magazine Online on TransVision 2004 Message-ID: <105660-22004851314328491@M2W058.mail2web.com> Not a bad article. BUT frankly, I had no intention of talking about cosmetic surgery as it had no relevance to posthuman entities. This guy needs a good lesson in moving beyond transhuman 20th Century technology to learning how to think about designing posthumans. I think I better give him a phone call this weekend or email to set him straight. Natasha Original Message: ----------------- From: Adrian Tymes wingcat at pacbell.net Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 14:09:43 -0700 (PDT) To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Reason Magazine Online on TransVision 2004 --- "Reason ." wrote: > Here's another one from a chap who, I feel, totally > misses the point of the exercise - wearing the arts > blinders and blundering through reality... > > http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20040812.html I had the opposite reaction to his article. He's arguing that we should be doing more doing and less talking - to him, we're the ones wearing the blinders and blundering. And then there's this: > Scientists need to embrace the reality of human > interaction and start to include marketing as an > important part of transhumanist dialog. Body > modification for example is successful not just > because it's "right", but also because it's cool and > accessible. "Memetic engineering" overlaps "marketing" so much that the two could arguably be called almost one and the same, just different takes on the same idea. We do not envision, say, augmented reality getting in the way of reality with a mass of mundane problems - interference with the existing social uses of the eyes chief among them - and yet this is one of the things keeping this idea from being accepted. It, itself, is a problem that needs solving, and altering or limiting the users isn't a viable solution (in fact, the requirement for said alterations or limits is a large part of the problem). _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Aug 13 14:54:33 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 10:54:33 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) Message-ID: >From: Mike Lorrey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday >(for forwarding) >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:48:45 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > > >From: Mike Lorrey > >How do you argue that? The deduction comes off the front end of income. >The more you earn, the less that deduction is worth because it is a >decreasing percentage of your income. Ergo, if you are in a higher tax >bracket, any given deduction is worth less UNLESS it happens to drop >you into a lower bracket. No, any deductions come off your highest percentage first. Tax brackets work by taxing a certain percentage of your income. For example the federal brackets were (for a single person) in 2001 were: Between But Not Over Base Tax + Rate Of the Amount Over $0 $6,000 $0 10% $0 $6000 $26,250 $600 15% $6,000 $26,250 $63,550 $3,637.50 27% $26,250 $63,550 $132,600 $13,708.50 30% $63,550 $132,600 $288,350 $34,423.50 35% $132,600 $288,350 - - - - - $88,936.00 38.6% $288,350 So if someone makes 300k and gets a $3000 deduction it is worth 38.6% of $3000 or $1158. But if someone makes 35000, then the $3000 deduction is worth only 27% of $3000 or $810. There's really no such thing as "dropping into a lower tax bracket" as being advantageous in the US federal tax system but I think that many people misunderstand and think that their entire income is taxed at the highest rate. I know I've personally had to explain this to tons of friends and relatives. So deductions never come out of the lowest bracket unless your lowest bracket is also your highest bracket. BAL From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 13 15:43:22 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 08:43:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <01f501c4811b$2cb6e3e0$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch > > George W Bush is the encumbent president of the US. Either > he or Kerry will have the power of that role for four years... > > Brett If one doesn't like these guys, there are others on the ballot. If one is generally right leaning but doesn't like Bush, the strategy is to vote for someone who is far left, such as that Ralph guy. Then the left-leaning party perceives that it must move farther left to pick up its own disaffected far left wing, which causes it to lose votes in the highly-populated middle. The two front runners have become indistinguishable (except for Kerry's comment that he would fight a "more sensitive war" whatever the hell that is). http://www.gop.com/RNCResearch/Read.aspx?ID=4514 I am a right-ish capitalist libertarian. I don't like Bush myself but would like to see Ralph make a good showing. Perhaps in the next election, that result would help those more likely to stay out of my portemonnaie. Politics create such odd paradoxes, ya gotta love it. spike From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Aug 13 15:50:35 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 17:50:35 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <842D9168-ED40-11D8-B92E-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 13 Aug 2004, at 17:43, Spike wrote: > I am a right-ish capitalist libertarian. I don't like > Bush myself but would like to see Ralph make a good > showing. Perhaps in the next election, that result > would help those more likely to stay out of my portemonnaie. > > Politics create such odd paradoxes, ya gotta love it. Spike: Its really too bad that US doesn't have proportional voting like in Australia. It would help stop you have to second guess the party you vote for. best, patrick From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 13 16:26:13 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 09:26:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <842D9168-ED40-11D8-B92E-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <000a01c48152$40ad5820$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Patrick Wilken > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? > > > > On 13 Aug 2004, at 17:43, Spike wrote: > > Politics create such odd paradoxes, ya gotta love it. > > Spike: > > Its really too bad that US doesn't have proportional voting like in > Australia. It would help stop you have to second guess the party you > vote for. > > best, patrick Actually we kinda do: we vote on representatives. The presidency is only one office (an important one of course). But ideally from a libertarian point of view, one likes to see the congress and the presidency held by opposing parties. If so, then preferrably the lefties hold the presidency and the righties hold both houses of congress. That way budgets tend to be leaner, which is good. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 13 18:08:03 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040813180803.29997.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > >From: Mike Lorrey > >To: ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this > Friday > >(for forwarding) > >Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 13:48:45 -0700 (PDT) > > > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > > > > >From: Mike Lorrey > > > >How do you argue that? The deduction comes off the front end of > income. > >The more you earn, the less that deduction is worth because it is a > >decreasing percentage of your income. Ergo, if you are in a higher > tax > >bracket, any given deduction is worth less UNLESS it happens to drop > >you into a lower bracket. > > No, any deductions come off your highest percentage first. Tax > brackets work > by taxing a certain percentage of your income. For example the > federal > brackets were (for a single person) in 2001 were: > Between But Not Over Base Tax + Rate Of the Amount Over > $0 $6,000 $0 10% $0 > $6000 $26,250 $600 15% $6,000 > $26,250 $63,550 $3,637.50 27% $26,250 > $63,550 $132,600 $13,708.50 30% $63,550 > $132,600 $288,350 $34,423.50 35% $132,600 > $288,350 - - - - - $88,936.00 38.6% $288,350 > > So if someone makes 300k and gets a $3000 deduction it is worth 38.6% > of $3000 or $1158. > But if someone makes 35000, then the $3000 deduction is worth only > 27% of $3000 or $810. Your logical problem here is that $810 is a much greater percentage of $35k than $1158 is of $300k, and both numbers are significantly less than the cost of raising each child. If your cost per child is $5k, that $5k is also a much greater percentage of $35k than of $300k. Since the $35k guy gets only $810 off his $5k cost of raising his kid, and the $300k guy gets $1158 off that $5k cost, the richer guy can afford not only more kids, but can afford to spend more money on each kid. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 13 18:11:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:11:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <842D9168-ED40-11D8-B92E-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20040813181151.8364.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > > On 13 Aug 2004, at 17:43, Spike wrote: > > I am a right-ish capitalist libertarian. I don't like > > Bush myself but would like to see Ralph make a good > > showing. Perhaps in the next election, that result > > would help those more likely to stay out of my portemonnaie. > > > > Politics create such odd paradoxes, ya gotta love it. > > Spike: > > Its really too bad that US doesn't have proportional voting like in > Australia. It would help stop you have to second guess the party you > vote for. Some states do have instant run-off voting, others do not. Vermont, for example, does have instant run-off, and the Progressive Party is a major party there. Despite federal regs, voting is constitutionally a states rights issue, except where 13/14/15th and other federal amendments apply. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Aug 13 18:51:56 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 14:51:56 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem, this Friday (for forwarding) Message-ID: >From: Mike Lorrey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: Re: [extropy-chat] [SALT] The DEpopulation Problem,this Friday >(for forwarding) >Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 11:08:03 -0700 (PDT) > > >Your logical problem here is that $810 is a much greater percentage of >$35k than $1158 is of $300k, and both numbers are significantly less >than the cost of raising each child. If your cost per child is $5k, >that $5k is also a much greater percentage of $35k than of $300k. Since >the $35k guy gets only $810 off his $5k cost of raising his kid, and >the $300k guy gets $1158 off that $5k cost, the richer guy can afford >not only more kids, but can afford to spend more money on each kid. Now you're getting into what the cost of a child is. My point was that as the tax burden increases, the tax incentives for having additional children also increases. I have no idea what the cost of a child is, but it's probably pretty high. I also made the point that the marginal cost of each child increases with volume (call it an economy of scale). BAL From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Sat Aug 14 08:45:21 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 09:45:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <842D9168-ED40-11D8-B92E-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <842D9168-ED40-11D8-B92E-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <411DD121.8060205@optusnet.com.au> Patrick Wilken wrote: > > On 13 Aug 2004, at 17:43, Spike wrote: > >> I am a right-ish capitalist libertarian. I don't like >> Bush myself but would like to see Ralph make a good >> showing. Perhaps in the next election, that result >> would help those more likely to stay out of my portemonnaie. >> >> Politics create such odd paradoxes, ya gotta love it. > > > Spike: > > Its really too bad that US doesn't have proportional voting like in > Australia. It would help stop you have to second guess the party you > vote for. > > best, patrick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > Proportional voting is good in that a candidate with widely distributed support can still be elected with enough votes. This means that minor parties and independents can still get elected, which makes for a less monolithic House, and IMHO a more representative elect. We also use Preferential Voting. There is a quick explanation of each here: http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/single/by_category/preferential.htm http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/proportional/proportion_rep.htm One of the benefits of the preferential system is that by listing your preferences in the right order you can make a 'protest vote' for a small party candidate while still having your vote count towards the major candidate that you dislike least. -David From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 01:14:04 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 18:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Traveling to Palm Beach In-Reply-To: <411DD121.8060205@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20040814011404.66899.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> >From Sunday evening through the 27th, I'll be in the Palm Beach, FL area, doing training for my new job. If any extropians want to get together in that time, you can reach me there at 18007378336. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Aug 14 03:28:41 2004 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 20:28:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> I plan to vote for the Libertarian candidate, Badnarik. Not because of any overly complicated political calculation though. Badnarik is simply the only one I have heard speak sensibly (and in large agreement with my own views). Of course I don't expect him to win. But a respectable showing in the Libertarian camp this year would send a clear message. It could also insure the Libertarian party is taken more seriously. Most calculations say that votes for Badnarik will be largely subtracted from votes for Bush. Bush is not limited government, balanced budget, limited foreign engagements, good for business or much of anything else dear to the heart of many of his supporters. The biggest reason though is that I am a Libertarian and I believe I should vote my convictions. I especially believe it as our freedoms are being eroded and threatened at a precipitous rate. I cannot in good faith sanction either of the major candidates who plan simply more of the same. - samantha On Aug 13, 2004, at 8:43 AM, Spike wrote: > >> Brett Paatsch > >> >> George W Bush is the encumbent president of the US. Either >> he or Kerry will have the power of that role for four years... >> >> Brett > > If one doesn't like these guys, there are others on > the ballot. If one is generally right leaning but > doesn't like Bush, the strategy is to vote for someone > who is far left, such as that Ralph guy. Then the > left-leaning party perceives that it must move farther > left to pick up its own disaffected far left wing, > which causes it to lose votes in the highly-populated > middle. The two front runners have become indistinguishable > (except for Kerry's comment that he would fight a "more > sensitive war" whatever the hell that is). > > http://www.gop.com/RNCResearch/Read.aspx?ID=4514 > > I am a right-ish capitalist libertarian. I don't like > Bush myself but would like to see Ralph make a good > showing. Perhaps in the next election, that result > would help those more likely to stay out of my portemonnaie. > > Politics create such odd paradoxes, ya gotta love it. > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Aug 14 04:48:04 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:48:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] So along comes this legal precedent... Message-ID: <20040814044804.55552.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, the vagaries of work. One never knows what one will stumble across. One of my current jobs has been to build a data mining script, to turn a very limited search interface provided by King County (of Washington state) into useful data for a real estate company. The information is your standard "must provide to the public" kind of thing, without limitation. Only King County decided that data miners, or any kind of automated, high-speed access, can not be supported, and are trying to say the law prevents access to the data at any rate greater than a human with a basic Web browser. (They're also saying it strains their resources - but one could pose the same argument about providing online access in the first place. And having written the script and timed the resources, I can testify that - assuming their scripts were written with the same competency I use for my own - the increased load on their servers from my scripts is quite minimal. I'm thus not entirely certain my employer was the only one mining them, but hardware is cheap. It's like refusing to give out copies of a report because all of the printed copies are gone, and ignoring the ability to print more.) Just to be on the safe side, I've disabled the offending scripts on my employer's side for the moment, but... It turns out that this is a legal gray area in most of the United States. My employer has a meeting set up with Washington's Attorney General to address the matter. It has been represented to me that this is likely to help establish precedent for other states as well. Now, granted, this is far from a core Extropian issue, or even a core "freedom of information" issue. (One could well view it as a corporation trying to improve what those with resources can accomplish, among other valid counter-arguments.) Even so, I think some on this list might find it food for thought. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Aug 14 04:59:54 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:59:54 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> Samantha wrote: > I plan to vote for the Libertarian candidate, Badnarik. Not > because of any overly complicated political calculation > though. Badnarik is simply the only one I have heard > speak sensibly (and in large agreement with my own views). > Of course I don't expect him to win. If you expect that either Kerry or Bush will win and consequently hold the power of the office for four years why wouldn't you vote for whichever of those you dislike the least? The reason I ask is that I get that neither Bush or Kerry appeal and I get that a lot of people think it won't make much difference but I can think of two grounds on which I think it will make a practical difference. 1) International law (or just plain old rule-of-law period) Kerry does not yet have conspicuous bad form as the head of state of a permanent security council member that invaded a foreign country. I think people (other heads of state) will distrust Kerry less. I would. I'd give Kerry one chance. I wouldn't give Bush another as I think he's already mishandled the UN and the US interests in the UN beyond his capacity to repair it. (It being the US interests in the UN and the UN generally. I think the US needs to get rid of Bush to start to get its word of honour back). 2) Stem cell research. (When Bush goes so will his screwy council on bioethics). Brett From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 05:05:25 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 14:35:25 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] So along comes this legal precedent... In-Reply-To: <20040814044804.55552.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040814044804.55552.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04081322053ae8e26a@mail.gmail.com> Actually, that's pretty interesting... please keep us informed of how it goes. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 21:48:04 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > Ah, the vagaries of work. One never knows what one > will stumble across. > > One of my current jobs has been to build a data mining > script, to turn a very limited search interface > provided by King County (of Washington state) into > useful data for a real estate company. The > information is your standard "must provide to the > public" kind of thing, without limitation. > > Only King County decided that data miners, or any kind > of automated, high-speed access, can not be supported, > and are trying to say the law prevents access to the > data at any rate greater than a human with a basic Web > browser. (They're also saying it strains their > resources - but one could pose the same argument about > providing online access in the first place. And > having written the script and timed the resources, I > can testify that - assuming their scripts were written > with the same competency I use for my own - the > increased load on their servers from my scripts is > quite minimal. I'm thus not entirely certain my > employer was the only one mining them, but hardware is > cheap. It's like refusing to give out copies of a > report because all of the printed copies are gone, and > ignoring the ability to print more.) Just to be on > the safe side, I've disabled the offending scripts on > my employer's side for the moment, but... > > It turns out that this is a legal gray area in most of > the United States. My employer has a meeting set up > with Washington's Attorney General to address the > matter. It has been represented to me that this is > likely to help establish precedent for other states as > well. > > Now, granted, this is far from a core Extropian issue, > or even a core "freedom of information" issue. (One > could well view it as a corporation trying to improve > what those with resources can accomplish, among other > valid counter-arguments.) Even so, I think some on > this list might find it food for thought. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 05:38:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:08:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Help! with reading image-based PDFs on a Palm Message-ID: <710b78fc04081322381c6e96de@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, A quick technical query, this strikes me as the kind of issue people on the list may have hit... My wife is studying her Masters by distance, and it includes lots of readings downloadable as PDFs. She's got a nice Palm PDA, so the goal is to shoehorn these things onto the palm. This should be simple, except the PDFs have been built by scanning books; it's the modern equivalent of the reading brick. So on the palm, these come out as full page images squeezed onto the tiny screen, ie: they are illegible. Does anyone have a solution to this? Is there a way to ocr these pdfs? I've looked online and come up empty handed (except for some extremely expensive software at this terrible website: http://www.pdfcreation.com/ Or is there a way to "zoom" the view on the acrobat pdf reader for palm, or maybe an alternate reader that will do this? Most of the text is in thin columns, so zooming might be tolerable. Thanks in advance! btw, did anyone notice that The A-Team have finally been exhonerated? http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4032&n=1 It's about time! Shame about Hannibal though. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 05:55:57 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:25:57 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped Message-ID: <710b78fc0408132255ecc7765@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I've been coming up with way too many interesting ideas lately. I can never begin to follow up even 10% of this stuff, so usually they go to waste. Then I discovered blogging... http://virtualemlyn.blogspot.com/ I've got a couple of cool fresh ideas on my blog right now, maybe they'd interest someone. One is a concept of web-based identity management for people out in the world, to handle all the myriad email addresses, web site logins, files, calendars & schedules, contact lists, etc, etc, etc that we all accumulate but that get completely out of hand (because there's just so much heterogenous crap to remember, like usernames/password, or urls, or whatever). Another is an explanation of how I think the google units based calculator probably works (ie: how to build it, and it's easy), and some bonus stuff you can do over and above that, given that you aren't integrating with a search engine. I'll expound shortly on a half baked software development methodology that I've got brewing in my head, tentatively tagged "disposable code". The axioms are "assume you start with a few spectacular coders, genius hackers, who can kind of work together, are individually irreplaceable, and most of whom don't like working with each other. What can you do?". It's a reaction to the regular methodologies (standard big system & agile) which assume that you want to work with endless fields of stupified code grinders, and that the brilliant cowboys in the corner are a liability... I think it will combines with an idea I blogged in July called "Object Bus" (dumb name), which is that you create a layer above messaging and databases onto which you can put objects, from which you can retrieve objects, including message sending style behaviour and database style behaviour. The "space" of objects is above the machine level (many machines can be involved, transparently). This way you can write lots of little programs that just do a bit of something, interacting only with the "object bus" and not with each other directly. From what little I know of Java, this is a bit like Java spaces, but the difference is that it is non language specific, meant to be dead easy to use, and applicable to desktop apps as well as big enterprise craziness. I wonder if a P2P approach under the covers could work here? This goes on and on, see the July archive in my blog for more detail. Feel free to tell me if you find any of this in the slightest bit useful or entertaining. Um, yeah, and also you can tell me it sucks if you feel so inclined. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 05:57:40 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:27:40 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040812200259035993@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040812200259035993@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0408132257ac70fb6@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 12:32:26 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Hi all, > > I've got a friend here who is looking for objective information > regarding Fahrenheit 911, because he found it compelling but obviously > slanted. He's wanting basically to sort the good stuff from the crap, > in the face of a torrent of "it's all crap/made up" vs "its gospel" > coming from all sides. > > Does anyone know of an objective examination of that movie? ie: non > party aligned, actually checking the facts, mind not made up in > advance kind of investigation? So the answer to this was "no". Ok, that's cool. Thanks for the links that were sent to me privately and publicly, btw, very interesting. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 12:43:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 05:43:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] So along comes this legal precedent... In-Reply-To: <20040814044804.55552.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040814124335.81640.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> That area is notorious for imaginative interpretations of the law. When I had my business there, they refused to enforce a part of the building code that mandated safety lighting systems my company sold. We sued, as state law mandates that local and county building code be at least as restrictive as the state code. They claimed that since theirs was more restrictive in some areas, and less in others, that it all evened out in the end.... If you sue them, though, just be sure that they don't know what car you are driving if you spend time in the area. I and my partners were subject to police harassment and numerous capricious citations over several years. --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > Ah, the vagaries of work. One never knows what one > will stumble across. > > One of my current jobs has been to build a data mining > script, to turn a very limited search interface > provided by King County (of Washington state) into > useful data for a real estate company. The > information is your standard "must provide to the > public" kind of thing, without limitation. > > Only King County decided that data miners, or any kind > of automated, high-speed access, can not be supported, > and are trying to say the law prevents access to the > data at any rate greater than a human with a basic Web > browser. (They're also saying it strains their > resources - but one could pose the same argument about > providing online access in the first place. And > having written the script and timed the resources, I > can testify that - assuming their scripts were written > with the same competency I use for my own - the > increased load on their servers from my scripts is > quite minimal. I'm thus not entirely certain my > employer was the only one mining them, but hardware is > cheap. It's like refusing to give out copies of a > report because all of the printed copies are gone, and > ignoring the ability to print more.) Just to be on > the safe side, I've disabled the offending scripts on > my employer's side for the moment, but... > > It turns out that this is a legal gray area in most of > the United States. My employer has a meeting set up > with Washington's Attorney General to address the > matter. It has been represented to me that this is > likely to help establish precedent for other states as > well. > > Now, granted, this is far from a core Extropian issue, > or even a core "freedom of information" issue. (One > could well view it as a corporation trying to improve > what those with resources can accomplish, among other > valid counter-arguments.) Even so, I think some on > this list might find it food for thought. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 12:49:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 05:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040814124916.64189.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > > 1) International law (or just plain old rule-of-law period) > > Kerry does not yet have conspicuous bad form as the head of > state of a permanent security council member that invaded a > foreign country. Screw "international law". None of you people who hate Bush have even read the Geneva Conventions, so what good are they? Oh, and by the way: there is a difference between international law, as embodied in things like the conventions, and international circuses and kangaroo courts, embodied in socialist dominated terrorist coddling bodies like the UN General Assembly and the World Court. > > I think people (other heads of state) will distrust Kerry less. > I would. I'd give Kerry one chance. I wouldn't give Bush another > as I think he's already mishandled the UN and the US interests > in the UN beyond his capacity to repair it. (It being the US > interests in the UN and the UN generally. I think the US needs > to get rid of Bush to start to get its word of honour back). Only because you don't know Kerry. The people who know him best as a commander, other Swift Boat veterans of Vietnam, almost unanimously are disgusted with him, and say he is unfit for command. > > 2) Stem cell research. (When Bush goes so will his screwy council > on bioethics). THe bioethics council can only reach so far as federal dollars are spent. As has been shown recently, it's not far enough, and I'd frankly appreciate the federal government not spending more taxpayer dollars. The deficit is bad enough already. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Aug 14 14:06:31 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:06:31 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040814124916.64189.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (8/14/04 5:49) Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> I think people (other heads of state) will distrust Kerry less. >> I would. I'd give Kerry one chance. I wouldn't give Bush another >> as I think he's already mishandled the UN and the US interests >> in the UN beyond his capacity to repair it. (It being the US >> interests in the UN and the UN generally. I think the US needs >> to get rid of Bush to start to get its word of honour back). > >Only because you don't know Kerry. The people who know him best as a >commander, other Swift Boat veterans of Vietnam, almost unanimously are >disgusted with him, and say he is unfit for command. One particular wingnut, who has had a vendetta against Kerry since the 70's, says he's unfit for command. There are just as many swift boat vets who sing his praises. And the vets that O'Neill (the wingnut) has been holding up as witnesses against Kerry have been rapidly backpedalling, since the discovery that O'Neill's book quotes them out of context and distorts the actual record - one of them was quoted as saying that he felt that O'Neill is engaging in an unwarranted smear job because of Kerry's opposition to the Vietnam War. And besides, even if Kerry is a dork, he's -still- better qualified than W. At least Kerry had the honor and integrity to go, even though he disagreed with it, instead of getting Daddy to place him in a nice safe reserve unit where he could get plastered and play hide the salami with buxom civil servants. Besides, Kerry's already shown how he reacts when the shit hits the fan. There's another swift boat vet alive today because Kerry did the right thing. Bush, on the other hand, wanked off for 7 minutes when things dropped in the pot. Yeah, that's decisive leadership for you. Mhmm. > >THe bioethics council can only reach so far as federal dollars are >spent. As has been shown recently, it's not far enough, and I'd frankly >appreciate the federal government not spending more taxpayer dollars. >The deficit is bad enough already. A deficit for which you can thank W. I'm particularly bitter about this ever since I woke up one morning convinced I had entered the Evil Parallel Universe(tm) because the Democrats were talking fiscal responsibility and the Republicans had mortgaged the entire fscking country. We will -never- see a comprehensive tax reform in our lifetime, due to the asininity of the Bush tax cuts. Instead of providing real tax relief, we got more of this Clinton-era "targetted" bullshit, only this time designed to benefit folks who make 3 times what I do. The tax cuts that would have provided real macroeconomic benefits were "phased in" over such a long time span as to be effectively useless and to add insult to injury, they 'expired' after a period of time because Congress didn't have the fscking balls to make them permanent. And then, Bush encourages his lapdogs^W^W the Republican-controlled House to increase Federal spending by amounts that would have given Lyndon Johnson a raging boner. And this doesn't even -begin- to touch on the erosions of state sovereignty and individual liberties that those neocon bastards have wrought. I'm not going to claim that Kerry is going to be what I want to see in office, but at this point, I'm willing to take the chance to see. I -know- what will happen if Bush stays in office. (Disclosure: I've voted for either Republican or Libertarian candidates for president since I was old enough to vote.) I'm going to make another pot of coffee. Vitriol alone is not sufficient to get me moving in the morning. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 15:03:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040814150352.97813.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (8/14/04 5:49) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >> > >> I think people (other heads of state) will distrust Kerry less. > >> I would. I'd give Kerry one chance. I wouldn't give Bush another > >> as I think he's already mishandled the UN and the US interests > >> in the UN beyond his capacity to repair it. (It being the US > >> interests in the UN and the UN generally. I think the US needs > >> to get rid of Bush to start to get its word of honour back). > > > >Only because you don't know Kerry. The people who know him best as a > >commander, other Swift Boat veterans of Vietnam, almost unanimously > are > >disgusted with him, and say he is unfit for command. > > One particular wingnut, who has had a vendetta against Kerry since > the 70's, says he's unfit for command. There are just as many swift > boat vets who sing his praises. This is patently FALSE. A poll at the most recent Swift Boat Vets reunion showed that 85% thought Kerry was completely unfit for command, 10% had no opinion, and 5% thought he was fit for command. Rather damning poll numbers in my opinion. Of the officers that posed in a picture with Kerry, which the Kerry campaign has used in his campaign ads, of those still living, 13 say he's unfit for command, four have no opinion, and one supports him. Most importantly, he a) lied in his autobiography and before congress about spending Christmas in Cambodia b) shot a fleeing Vietcong in the back, for which he faked up one of his medals, claiming the enemy was "poised to turn around" and that he didn't 'shoot him in the back'. If the enemy is fleeing, and is only 'poised' to turn around, when you shoot him, you are, by definition and the laws of physics, shooting him in the back. c) his commanding officer told him that he wanted Kerry to volunteer for the "three purple hearts" transfer out of theater, so as not to risk his men any further. d) several men who were in combat with him have made statements that he fled in the face of the enemy and was known as one who repeatedly tried brown nosing his superiors. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 14 15:11:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 08:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040814151129.99254.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (8/14/04 5:49) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > >THe bioethics council can only reach so far as federal dollars are > >spent. As has been shown recently, it's not far enough, and I'd > frankly > >appreciate the federal government not spending more taxpayer > dollars. > >The deficit is bad enough already. > > > A deficit for which you can thank W. or al Qaeda, for those of us who prefer an accurate version of history. None of which has an iotas thing to do with my original point, as you continue to reduce things to hominem and non sequitur. > > I'm particularly bitter about this ever since I woke up one morning > convinced I had entered the Evil Parallel Universe(tm) because the > Democrats were talking fiscal responsibility and the Republicans had > mortgaged the entire fscking country. We will -never- see a > comprehensive tax reform in our lifetime, due to the asininity of the > Bush tax cuts. I've always found that it is easier to make progress by jumping on the reaction to a swing in the wrong direction. Conservative strategies Grover Norquist seems to me to be a closet anarchist. The spending strategies of the feds these days seems oriented toward bankrupting the government into a "Snow Crash" type scenario. Not an entirely bad way to go IMHO. Comprehensive tax reform will only happen when we are able to separate the government from debt backed money. It's the interest on the debt that is killing us. Since when did congress get the authority to delegate the money making power to a private bank? The people need to take that power back. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pfallon at ptd.net Sat Aug 14 16:17:27 2004 From: pfallon at ptd.net (Pat Fallon) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 12:17:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 - objective review?] References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY><0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <002901c4821a$3f1ecc00$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> > > I plan to vote for the Libertarian candidate, Badnarik. Not > > because of any overly complicated political calculation > > though. Badnarik is simply the only one I have heard > > speak sensibly (and in large agreement with my own views). > > Of course I don't expect him to win. > > If you expect that either Kerry or Bush will win and consequently > hold the power of the office for four years why wouldn't you > vote for whichever of those you dislike the least? > Sometimes ideas can get elected even though the candidate expressing them doesn't. If a libertarian candidate did well in an election, the major parties might consider that there is a politically significant minority with those views... For example, if Republican candidates keep selling out on "gun rights", some voters might consider voting for a Libertarian candidate who is a strong advocate of the right to keep and bear arms. This might send a message to the Republicans that they shouldn't take those voters for granted based on the belief that they have no where to go. Pat Fallon pfallon at ptd.net From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Aug 14 16:42:28 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 02:42:28 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 - objectivereview?] References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> <002901c4821a$3f1ecc00$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> Message-ID: <010001c4821d$afb7b050$852c2dcb@homepc> Pat Fallon wrote: > > > I plan to vote for the Libertarian candidate, Badnarik. Not > > > because of any overly complicated political calculation > > > though. Badnarik is simply the only one I have heard > > > speak sensibly (and in large agreement with my own views). > > > Of course I don't expect him to win. > > > > If you expect that either Kerry or Bush will win and consequently > > hold the power of the office for four years why wouldn't you > > vote for whichever of those you dislike the least? > > > > > Sometimes ideas can get elected even though the candidate > expressing them doesn't. I don't agree Pat. An idea won't be elected President. The presidency is a role. It needs to be filled by a person and people come with warts and all. > If a libertarian candidate did well in an election, the major parties > might consider that there is a politically significant minority with > those views.. Lets say both the democrats and the republicans did consider that there was a significant minority of voters who were libertarians. So what? Libertarians (as I understand it - mostly want to be left alone - they want as few as possible constrains on their freedom). So do I. But in democracies majorities often LIKE to constrain the freedoms of minorities. On Friday, in the Australian parliament both the Liberal Party and the Labor Party combined to pass a law against same sex marriages. Both the major parties have large numbers of religious constituents and those constituents *wanted* to curtail the freedoms of homosexuals to marry. They religious constituents in both parties came out enmass to ensure the legislation was actively anti-libertarian. I'm not gay, but some of the best speaches I've heard were given by a handful of hopelessly outnumbered minory party constituents. > For example, if Republican candidates keep selling out on "gun rights", > some voters might consider voting for a Libertarian candidate who is > a strong advocate of the right to keep and bear arms. > > This might send a message to the Republicans that they shouldn't take > those voters for granted based on the belief that they have no where > to go. Unless you've a plan not just to protest vote then the hard reality is that there often is no where to go to get minority representation. Just because it is not possible to elect a libertarian president on the numbers doesn't mean that one can't still argue for libertarian causes though. On the matter of the US Presidency if only Bush or Kerry can win and libertarian issues are your driver then you could make a list of pros and cons on libertarian issues for those candidates and vote so as to achieve some damage control. Then go back to supporting libertarian issues in all available ways. It doesn't make sense though not to do the damage control as well. Or does it? Brett From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Aug 14 16:46:24 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 02:46:24 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: <20040814124916.64189.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010801c4821e$3c88e210$852c2dcb@homepc> > > 1) International law (or just plain old rule-of-law period) > > > > Kerry does not yet have conspicuous bad form as the head of > > state of a permanent security council member that invaded a > > foreign country. Mike Lorrey: > Screw "international law". None of you people who hate Bush > have even read the Geneva Conventions, so what good are > they? Come on Mike. You are capable of seeing what good international law (like the UN Charter) and the Geneva Conventions are. They are in the US national interest. If international law and the Geneva Conventions didn't exist some competent US head of state would take a lead role in trying to create them. - Brett From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Aug 14 17:14:24 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 10:14:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 - objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <002901c4821a$3f1ecc00$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> Message-ID: <000001c48222$2b3e2b10$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Pat Fallon > > For example, if Republican candidates keep selling out on > "gun rights", some voters might consider voting for a Libertarian candidate who is > a strong advocate of the right to keep and bear arms. > > This might send a message to the Republicans that they shouldn't take > those voters for granted based on the belief that they have > no where to go. > > Pat Fallon > pfallon at ptd.net Ja this was my point exactly. If one finds oneself in a position where one cannot tell the difference between the major candidates in a particular election, one is perhaps best served by voting for the far wing of the opposite party. Right leaning non-Bush fans would be best served by voting for Nader, because he's an unelectable nut. If he does well, the left party moves left to collect Nader voters, thus abandoning any semblance of support for corporate rights, property rights and gun rights for instance, thus losing votes in the highly populated middle. Similarly a left leaning libertarian who dislikes Kerry should vote for Pat Buchanan, causing the right party to move right in an attempt to collect those votes, thus abandoning abortion rights for instance, thus losing votes in the middle. Nations would be best served if their two leading parties would move apart some. This would keep elections from becoming beauty contests, which is what they have become. spike From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Aug 14 19:23:14 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:23:14 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040814150352.97813.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (8/14/04 8:03) Mike Lorrey wrote: >This is patently FALSE. A poll at the most recent Swift Boat Vets >reunion showed that 85% thought Kerry was completely unfit for command, >10% had no opinion, and 5% thought he was fit for command. Rather >damning poll numbers in my opinion. Dude. One of them was on stage with him at the convention. The other whom I mentioned made a public retraction in the Boston newspaper. Put down that Kool-Aid. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Aug 14 19:29:56 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:29:56 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040814151129.99254.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (8/14/04 8:11) Mike Lorrey wrote: >or al Qaeda, for those of us who prefer an accurate version of history. >None of which has an iotas thing to do with my original point, as you >continue to reduce things to hominem and non sequitur. Those of us who prefer an accurate version of history can well note that the spending that has been going on in the name of the "War of Terror" has damned little to do with actually breaking al Qaeda. And it bally well does, since you brought up the deficit. My argument was no more non-sequitur than you bringing up a disaffected swift boat captain with an axe to grind and calling that irrefutable evidence. And if my argument was ad hominem, it was so directed towards the current administration. I didn't point out the silliness of a purported libertarian stumping for arguably the most statist (and fascist) Republican administration in the past 50 years. -That- would have been ad hominem. :) The fact that you're so defensive about this says something. What it says, I'm not sure, but it certainly says something. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Aug 14 19:35:56 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:35:56 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 - objective review?] In-Reply-To: <002901c4821a$3f1ecc00$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> Message-ID: (8/14/04 12:17) Pat Fallon wrote: >This might send a message to the Republicans that they shouldn't take >those voters for granted based on the belief that they have no where to go. Unfortunately, the current unholy alliance between the neocons and the fundamentalist Christian right-wing is so well-funded that barring an election rout or a libertarian lobbying blitz (isn't that an oxymoron? *G*), the Republican party will continue to take voters like me for granted. I personally intend to cast votes based on pure spite in several elections just for this reason. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From pfallon at ptd.net Sat Aug 14 19:48:19 2004 From: pfallon at ptd.net (Pat Fallon) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 15:48:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY><0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com><007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc><002901c4821a$3f1ecc00$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> <010001c4821d$afb7b050$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <008b01c48237$b7b32680$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> >> If a libertarian candidate did well in an election, >> the major parties might consider that there is >> a politically significant minority with those views.. > Lets say both the democrats and the republicans did consider that there > was a significant minority of voters who were libertarians. So what? if the libertarian candidate got more votes than the 2nd place finisher lost by, one tactic that suggests itself is for the candidate [or party] that lost to see if they could adopt [and water down, of course] some issue or position associated with the libertarian candidate in hope of picking up some of those voters... Pat Fallon pfallon at ptd.net From pfallon at ptd.net Sat Aug 14 20:16:28 2004 From: pfallon at ptd.net (Pat Fallon) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:16:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY><0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com><007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc><002901c4821a$3f1ecc00$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> <010001c4821d$afb7b050$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <009801c4823b$a2d16610$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> > > Sometimes ideas can get elected even though the candidate > > expressing them doesn't. > I don't agree Pat. An idea won't be elected President. The presidency > is a role. It needs to be filled by a person and people come with warts > and all. A Socialist Party candidate was never elected President of the US, but, in effect, their ideas were... F.D.R., in particular, was attacked by the leader of the Socialist Party, Eugene Debs, and other Socialist campaigners as an opportunistic thief of Socialist Party platform planks. Pat Fallon pfallon at ptd.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Aug 14 20:54:04 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 16:54:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Traveling to Palm Beach In-Reply-To: <200408141800.i7EI0m010851@tick.javien.com> References: <200408141800.i7EI0m010851@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <1384A94A-EE34-11D8-A005-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Aug 14, 2004, at 2:00 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > From Sunday evening through the 27th, I'll be in the Palm Beach, FL > area, doing training for my new job. If any extropians want to get > together in that time, you can reach me there at 18007378336. Drat! That's only a 90 minute drive from my Florida home. Unfortunately, I am working in Washington, DC now and won't be home during this time. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Aug 14 22:43:59 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:43:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tunguska spaceship after all? Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174207.01bc9ed8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> What thu--? http://www.physorg.com/news819.html last expedition, confirmed that parts of an extraterrestrial device had been discovered. The new expedition, organized by the Siberian Public State Foundation "Tunguska Space Phenomenon" completed its work on the scene of Tunguska meteorite fall on August 9. > Presumably a wild beat-up (as Aussies say), but you never know. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Aug 14 22:47:39 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:47:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Breakthrough Nanotechnology Will Bring 100 Terabyte 3.5-inch Digital Data Storage Disks http://www.physorg.com/news785.html From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Aug 14 23:01:46 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:01:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tunguska -- on the other hand... Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814175826.01bdfc58@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/tunguska_event_040812.html <"I'm afraid this is a rather stupid hoax," said Benny Peiser, a researcher at Liverpool John Moores University in the UK. "The Russian team stupidly stated long before they went to Siberia that the main intention of their expedition was to find the remnants of an 'alien spaceship!' And bingo! A week later, that's what they claim to have found." Peiser studies catastrophic events and related scientific processes and media reports. He runs an electronic newsletter, CCNet, which is among the most comprehensive running catalogues on the subject. "It's a rather sad comment on the current state of the anything-goes attitudes among some 'science' correspondents that such blatant rubbish is being reported -- without the slightest hint of skepticism," Peiser told SPACE.com. > Luckily, we know researchers in Liverpool are always right. Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 14 23:25:51 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 08:55:51 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040814162553b4b4f4@mail.gmail.com> Excellent! A couple of those might be able to hold a few weeks of my mailing list and rss feed subscriptions. Emlyn On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:47:39 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > Breakthrough Nanotechnology Will Bring 100 Terabyte 3.5-inch Digital Data > Storage Disks > > http://www.physorg.com/news785.html > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From bjk at imminst.org Sun Aug 15 00:54:55 2004 From: bjk at imminst.org (Bruce J. Klein) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 19:54:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst Update - Transvision & Ettinger Message-ID: <411EB45F.5080207@imminst.org> CHAT: Toronto TransVision 2004 - Photos & Discussion Chat Time - Sun, Aug 15 @ 8 PM Eastern: http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=159&t=3377&st=30#entry35936 ARTICLE: Robert Ettinger - Father of Cryonics: Interview by Bruce Klein http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=67&t=4112 POLL: Would you favor the creation of a Methuselah Fly Prize? http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=44&t=4048 From twodeel at jornada.org Sun Aug 15 01:07:53 2004 From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040814150352.97813.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > This is patently FALSE. A poll at the most recent Swift Boat Vets > reunion showed that 85% thought Kerry was completely unfit for command, > 10% had no opinion, and 5% thought he was fit for command. Rather > damning poll numbers in my opinion. >From what I can see, Snopes seems to disagree with you about the whole Swift Boat vets issue. From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Aug 15 01:20:20 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 18:20:20 -0700 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re:[extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: Message-ID: <001601c48266$08480830$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Don Dartfield" > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > This is patently FALSE. A poll at the most recent Swift Boat Vets > > reunion showed that 85% thought Kerry was completely unfit for command, > > 10% had no opinion, and 5% thought he was fit for command. Rather > > damning poll numbers in my opinion. > >From what I can see, Snopes seems to disagree with you about the whole > Swift Boat vets issue. Yep, that seems to be the case: http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp C'mon Mike. Give in. http://www.johnkerryisadouchebagbutimvotingforhimanyway.com/ Olga From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Aug 15 01:36:51 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:36:51 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911-objectivereview?] References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> <002901c4821a$3f1ecc00$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> <010001c4821d$afb7b050$852c2dcb@homepc> <008b01c48237$b7b32680$259532d1@preferrei3lj79> Message-ID: <017b01c48268$56f14a80$852c2dcb@homepc> > >> If a libertarian candidate did well in an election, > >> the major parties might consider that there is > >> a politically significant minority with those views.. > > > Lets say both the democrats and the republicans did consider that there > > was a significant minority of voters who were libertarians. So what? > > if the libertarian candidate got more votes than the 2nd place finisher > lost by, one tactic that suggests itself is for the candidate [or party] > that lost to see if they could adopt [and water down, of course] > some issue or position associated with the libertarian candidate > in hope of picking up some of those voters... [Aside: I could be missing something in how US presidential elections are run (I don't follow the mechanics as closely in the US as I do in Australia - so that might be effecting my thinking.) Here in Australia I couldn't personally vote for Howard or Latham because they aren't sitting in the same electoral seat as each other and neither of them is sitting in mine. To get either Howard or Latham as a Prime Minister the best I could do with my vote (short of moving my place of residence) is to vote for their party and expect that their party if they win a majority in the House of Reps will win government and then the party leader becomes the Prime Minister. Isn't it the case though that you do vote in the US for the President directly. ie. Don't you get to vote for Bush himself or Kerry himself or Nadar?). I know I could check this using google but then no one would tell me and in so doing also tell and educate other people reading. ] ------- Now (if my understanding of what you are suggesting is correct and you can each vote directly for the person who will be president not just the party then what you are saying might be put like this) Let's say the Libertarian presidential candidate gets 5% The candidate from party A gets 48% The candidate from party B gets 47% Your saying Party A and Party B would see AFTER the Party A's candidate becomes president for 4 years (and does whatever the hell he likes with libertarian issues for four years) that there was a 5% wedge that might have been attracted somehow to make a difference and that they should consider that next time - aren't you? If so my problem is that that 5% wedge of Libertarians is not a wedge that can be relied on to be there in four years time or that can be relied on to be broken up in such a way as to effect the electorate in four years time. All it tells you is that the libertarians amounted to 5% this time around. Libertarians and non-libertarians alike ARE going to get Bush or Kerry for four years. That four years is four years of *your* life. By the time the next election comes around and the number cruncher come to consider the protest vote of the libertarian message senders you will all be four years older and four years closer to being dead. And whichever of Bush or Kerry (Party A's or Party B's presidential candidate that would have been least bad exercising presidential power for this coming for years including on your libertarian issues will not have been affected by your vote). That true isn't it? (Obviously if you thought party A or B's candidate was slightly more libertarian and was going to win anyway you could vote for you libertarian candidate as well.) But with a line ball election could you rationally risk it? I stand ready to be educated if I'm wrong, especially with respect to the mechanics of US presidential elections. Brett From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 03:29:25 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 20:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040815032925.78921.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (8/14/04 8:03) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >This is patently FALSE. A poll at the most recent Swift Boat Vets > >reunion showed that 85% thought Kerry was completely unfit for > command, > >10% had no opinion, and 5% thought he was fit for command. Rather > >damning poll numbers in my opinion. > > > Dude. One of them was on stage with him at the convention. The other > whom I mentioned made a public retraction in the Boston newspaper. > Put down that Kool-Aid. The one on stage at the convention was his one supporter. The Swift Boats reunion poll was of 295 or so vets. So one retracts, thats still damning numbers. The kool aid is being drunk by the dems who think it is democratic to sue a bi-partisan group of military veterans into surrendering their first amendment rights, to bully networks and newspapers into even refusing to allow these vets to PAY to have their voices heard, and to condemn O'Neill, who has voted Democrat and comes from a family that has voted Democrat for generations, as some kind of conspirator of the 'vast right wing conspiracy'. This whole episode is proof in the pu dding that the dems will do ANYTHING to silence credible opposition. Typical left wing smear tactics. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Aug 15 03:29:53 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:29:53 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 - objectivereview?] References: Message-ID: <019b01c48278$2113f920$852c2dcb@homepc> Brent Neal: > I personally intend to cast votes based on pure spite in several > elections just for this reason. Sounds like game theory tit for tat. Imagine how you'd feel if you were an Iraqi teenager managing to survive under Saddam and some idiot wiped out your family as part of collateral damage in an illegal war. Who would you think was the terrorist leader you most wanted to see brought to justice Saddam, Bin Laden or Bush? Now consider that the US voters can replace Bush without killing him and can claim quite rightly that they never voted for a doctrine of preemption when they elected Bush and they do not support it or endorse Bush's past method of indiscriminantly waging war now. That teenager may still grow to hate Bush personally but whether he generalised that hatred to American's is still in the hands of the American voter. There will still be a mess to clean up in Iraq whoever is president but the teenager will look at American's attempts to clean up the mess differently if Bush is not re-elected and his illegal reckless actions aren't endorsed. If Bush IS endorsed that teenager has four years to grow and plan and to consider how much he should care about the collateral damage of his own actions in his own pursuit of justice as he sees it. He has a chance to factor into his thinking how much the American voter cared about the collateral damage done to his family and to him. That Iraq kid is a fiction in many ways but he is a statistical certainty in others. If Americans endorse Bush post-Iraq, then American will own part of the consequences of that Iraqi teenagers consideration of the amount of collateral damage he is willing to accept in going after Bush. The universe is contingent. Tit for tat goes very deep in human psychology and in game theory and I'd encourage US voters not to imagine that humans are very different in wanting to see justice done. I am not an Iraqi teenager - Bush's doctrine of preemption has not killed my family yet - but I am a pissed off Australian. I am going to have to live in a world of idiot created and propagated terror now. There is no totally honorable side for me to choose to be on and that is the fault of the leaders of my country. I have seen Bush, Blair and Howard hijack the future through incompetence and make it about terror when it could have been a lot more about hope. I will not forget that when I vote. - Brett From brentn at freeshell.org Sun Aug 15 03:41:36 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:41:36 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040815032925.78921.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (8/14/04 20:29) Mike Lorrey wrote: >Typical left wing smear tactics. Actually, it smacks more of typical right-wing smear tactics. The kind used against McCain in the Republican primaries in 2000. And your numbers are still bullshit, as others have pointed out. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From dgc at cox.net Sun Aug 15 03:55:15 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:55:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040814162553b4b4f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <710b78fc040814162553b4b4f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <411EDEA3.6090302@cox.net> We joke about this, but the reality is different. At some point during the last ten years, most of us crossed a threshold. Prior to the threshold, We did not have enough disk space or processing power. We spent as much money on a computer as our comfort level allowed, and it was not enough. Now, for most of us we have enough. When is the last time you checked the percentage of usage of your disk? when is the last time you thought "gee this operation is taking too long." (not counting problems with viruses and malware.) Think back ten years. One of the big deals then was figuring out which disk compression software to use. Most broadband providers have a cap at 2GB/month. A 1TB disk will hold more than 2 years of downloads, at a current cost of about $1000. ($500 for the disks and $500 for the computer to hold the disks.) A 100TB disk would hold 200 years of downloads at today's rates. Assuming no monthly cap, look at it another way. An individual can probably assimilate <1Mbps for < 8hours/day (average.) that's (1Mb/8)*3600*8, or 3.6GB/day. That's 1TB/mo, or 100TB in 8 years. Emlyn wrote: >Excellent! A couple of those might be able to hold a few weeks of my >mailing list and rss feed subscriptions. > >Emlyn > >On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:47:39 -0500, Damien Broderick > wrote: > > >>Breakthrough Nanotechnology Will Bring 100 Terabyte 3.5-inch Digital Data >>Storage Disks >> >>http://www.physorg.com/news785.html >> >> >> From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 04:00:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:00:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040815040000.67675.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Don Dartfield wrote: > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > This is patently FALSE. A poll at the most recent Swift Boat Vets > > reunion showed that 85% thought Kerry was completely unfit for > command, > > 10% had no opinion, and 5% thought he was fit for command. Rather > > damning poll numbers in my opinion. > > >From what I can see, Snopes seems to disagree with you about the > whole > Swift Boat vets issue. On the contrary, Snopes quotes 18 swift boat vets against him, three statements in his favor, and two which are marginal. These numbers reflect the stats I posted above: Most vets who served with him think he's unfit. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 04:03:24 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re:[extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <001601c48266$08480830$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Don Dartfield" > > > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > > This is patently FALSE. A poll at the most recent Swift Boat Vets > > > reunion showed that 85% thought Kerry was completely unfit for > command, > > > 10% had no opinion, and 5% thought he was fit for command. Rather > > > damning poll numbers in my opinion. > > > >From what I can see, Snopes seems to disagree with you about the > whole > > Swift Boat vets issue. > > Yep, that seems to be the case: > > http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/swift.asp > > C'mon Mike. Give in. Nope, that page shows 18 vets against him, three for him, and two indeterminate, which reflects my own stats pretty accurately. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brentn at freeshell.org Sun Aug 15 04:06:36 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:06:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 - objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <019b01c48278$2113f920$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: (8/15/04 13:29) Brett Paatsch wrote: >Brent Neal: > >> I personally intend to cast votes based on pure spite in several >> elections just for this reason. > >Sounds like game theory tit for tat. > Hadn't thought of it that way, but I think that you may be right. >The universe is contingent. Tit for tat goes very deep in human >psychology and in game theory and I'd encourage US voters not >to imagine that humans are very different in wanting to see justice >done. I recall reading somewhere that the "tit-for-two-tats" strategy is usually more optimal than tit for tat. Of course, in BushCo's case, there are so many 'tats' that one loses track. :) > >There is no totally honorable side for me to choose to be on and that >is the fault of the leaders of my country. I hear you. > >I have seen Bush, Blair and Howard hijack the future through >incompetence and make it about terror when it could have been >a lot more about hope. I will not forget that when I vote. I call it voting on the principle of least incompetence. I made the mistake in 2000 of voting for Harry Browne, the Libertarian candidate, because the thought of voting for an abject moron like Bush was morally repugnant (and because anyone that dumb must have smart handlers that'd be running the show, and I figured correctly that those handlers would be the same people that were in power during his father's presidency.) and voting Democrat was something I wasn't prepared to do. So this time around, I'm voting "against someone" instead of "for a set of principles." And honestly, I don't see any other way at this point to prevent the US from turning into a complete hell-hole. Kerry may be just as spineless as any other career politician, but there is a possibility that he may be 'educatable.' So sayeth John Perry Barlow, at least. (c.f. ) Actually, I think that interview pretty much sums up why libertarians of any stripe should not be voting for BushCo. ("I don?t see anything particularly free about a plutocracy.") Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 04:20:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911-objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <017b01c48268$56f14a80$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040815042021.67910.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > ------- > > Now (if my understanding of what you are suggesting is correct > and you can each vote directly for the person who will be president > not just the party then what you are saying might be put like this) > > Let's say the Libertarian presidential candidate gets 5% > The candidate from party A gets 48% > The candidate from party B gets 47% > > Your saying Party A and Party B would see AFTER the Party A's > candidate becomes president for 4 years (and does whatever the > hell he likes with libertarian issues for four years) that there was > a 5% wedge that might have been attracted somehow to make a > difference and that they should consider that next time - aren't > you? If neither major party gets a majority of the popular vote (as happened in the 1992 election, when Clinton won with, I think, 39% or so), it tells the major parties that they are ignoring large parts of the electorate that they need to kiss up to, and it also tells them that the winner did not receive a mandate for his agenda. However, the popular vote doesn't elect the president, the electoral vote does, sort of like the parliament elects the PM, except the electors are generally obligated to vote the way the people in their district voted. Some states don't make this mandatory. However, this does mean that, as in 2000, it is possible for a candidate to lose the popular vote nationwide but win enough electoral districts to win the electoral college. If, say, the Libertarian Party wins enough votes in some districts to win a few electoral votes, and the two other parties are neck and neck in winning the rest of the electoral votes, then we could have a situation where nobody wins a majority of the electoral college. When that happens, then the dickering happens, and the two major parties will woo the smallest party with deals on agenda items, maybe some cabinet or judgeship appointments, in order to get those electoral votes for their candidate. Now, Spike's logic is wrong. If you were going to vote democrat but can't stand Kerry, it is a bad idea to vote for Buchanan or Banarik, because it only builds the strength of those parties demands for change from the Republicans. It won't change anything about the democrats. Just look at the 2000 election. By Spike's logic, the DNC should be even more Green than it was, but it isn't. Kerry instead is Bush-lite with a little liberal on top: Kerry advocating "compassionate war" in Iraq (WHAT is THAT?). Dems blame the Greens and have backed away from luddism. Instead, if you want the GOP to back away from luddite policies, you should back a radical luddite like Buchanan to nader Bush. If you want to nader Bush with the war, play up Bush's connections to Grover Norquist and via him the radical Islamic set, and promote a rabid anti-muslim candidate. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 04:37:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 21:37:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 - objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040815043715.69210.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (8/15/04 13:29) Brett Paatsch wrote: > > >Brent Neal: > > > >> I personally intend to cast votes based on pure spite in several > >> elections just for this reason. > > > >Sounds like game theory tit for tat. > > > > Hadn't thought of it that way, but I think that you may be right. Which still doesn't demonstrate any evidence of voting rationally. Tit for tat is decidedly an irrational, instinctual, strategy. > > > I call it voting on the principle of least incompetence. I made the > mistake in 2000 of voting for Harry Browne, the Libertarian > candidate, because the thought of voting for an abject moron like > Bush was morally repugnant (and because anyone that dumb must have > smart handlers that'd be running the show, and I figured correctly > that those handlers would be the same people that were in power > during his father's presidency.) and voting Democrat was something I > wasn't prepared to do. > > So this time around, I'm voting "against someone" instead of "for a > set of principles." And honestly, I don't see any other way at this > point to prevent the US from turning into a complete hell-hole. Kerry > may be just as spineless as any other career politician, but there is > a possibility that he may be 'educatable.' So sayeth John Perry > Barlow, at least. (c.f. > ) Actually, I think > that interview pretty much sums up why libertarians of any stripe > should not be voting for BushCo. ("I don???t see anything > particularly free about a plutocracy.") The anti-any-war attitude of many US Libertarians is not shared around the world. The French Libertarian movement, Liberte J'ecrit Ton Nom, is decidedly pro-Bush, pro-Iraqwar, which, along with the US LP stance, only seems to indicate that too many libertarians of any stripe are generally contrarian in nature, not that their foreign policy is based on a rational principle, despite what many might like to claim. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Aug 15 04:37:31 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:37:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, In-Reply-To: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <001601c48266$08480830$6600a8c0@brainiac> <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814232939.01c1bec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:03 PM 8/14/2004 -0700, Mike Lorrey wrote: >Nope, that page shows 18 vets against him, three for him, and two >indeterminate, which reflects my own stats pretty accurately. They're mostly not `against him' in the relevant sense (for this thread) of asserting witness of his alleged cowardice and incompetence in the face of the enemy. They are against his subsequent claims that the Vietnam war involved unjustified terror and atrocities, claims in which they feel painfully implicated. That dirty rat! Everyone knows that the Vietnam war was conducted in a polite and gentlemanly way by the Americans and their allies, much as the Iraq war is being conducted nowadays. Damien Broderick From brentn at freeshell.org Sun Aug 15 04:58:03 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:58:03 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814232939.01c1bec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: (8/14/04 23:37) Damien Broderick wrote: >They're mostly not `against him' in the relevant sense (for this thread) of >asserting witness of his alleged cowardice and incompetence in the face of >the enemy. They are against his subsequent claims that the Vietnam war >involved unjustified terror and atrocities, claims in which they feel >painfully implicated. That dirty rat! Everyone knows that the Vietnam war >was conducted in a polite and gentlemanly way by the Americans and their >allies, much as the Iraq war is being conducted nowadays. Exactly. This is why Mike's claims of a vast swell of swift boat veterans decrying Kerry falls flat. To paraphrase someone else: "John Kerry is a douchebag but he's still a better leader than the Shrub." Just because a veteran disagrees with Kerry's anti-war stance does not mean that he agrees with O'Neill's wingnuttery. To assume otherwise is so incredibly, blindly partisan as to defy common sense. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From twodeel at jornada.org Sun Aug 15 05:30:39 2004 From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 22:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040815040000.67675.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > On the contrary, Snopes quotes 18 swift boat vets against him, three > statements in his favor, and two which are marginal. These numbers > reflect the stats I posted above: Most vets who served with him think > he's unfit. It also says that only one of the 18 quoted men actually served under him, and that "The other men who served under Kerry's command continue to speak positively of him" and "How well all of these men knew John Kerry is questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described Kerry thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that their opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than objective assessments of Kerry's military record." From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 15 06:36:41 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:36:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit911-objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <20040815042021.67910.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c48292$3d723ef0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > > Instead, if you want the GOP to back away from luddite policies, you > should back a radical luddite like Buchanan to nader Bush. If you want > to nader Bush with the war, play up Bush's connections to Grover > Norquist and via him the radical Islamic set, and promote a rabid > anti-muslim candidate. > ===== > Mike Lorrey I admit I am at a loss in this election. I see no real differences in how the two front runners will handle the war. Kerry says he will fight a more sensitive war. But all war is hell, there is no reforming it. Kerry witnessed a number of war crimes in Vietnam that evidently no one else saw. Either he committed the war crimes himself or he lied, which would be treason. I have seen no other witnesses backing up his testimony. Bush is messing up in an area that really matters: stem cell research. Nader didn't make the ballot in most states, and I never even heard of the libertarian candidate before two weeks ago. I suspect we will end up with screwed leadership. But if the past is any indication, we will do just fine anyway. spike From charlie at antipope.org Sun Aug 15 10:38:14 2004 From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 11:38:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3613385A-EEA7-11D8-AD2B-000D9328A216@antipope.org> On 12 Aug 2004, at 18:48, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: >> Who's going to build the microwave >> stations on the ground to >> track the craft as it goes around the Earth? > > I generally agree with most of your objections here, > but this one can easily be solved: solar panels (or > cells on the craft's skin), or a fleet of microwave > satellites launched by traditional means. > >> The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as >> SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. > > *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own > right. If they can solve the engineering issues of > floating serious payload at high altitudes...floating > cities, anyone? Sure. Until ... 1. The neighbours on the ground get a bit annoyed about the city blocking all their sunlight 2. The neighbours on the ground who you've just drifted over point out that under existing international law they have sovereignty over their head space, and would you mind implementing their shari'a legal code immediately? (For the sake of point (2) above, assume the neighbours have SAMs or an ABM system) 3. The higher you float your city, the lower the density of the surrounding air. Therefore the volume of lift gas you need to displace your own mass in air also increases. When you're so high that atmospheric pressure is around 1% of sea level, your aerostat needs to hold 100 times the volume it encloses at sea level. The kind of altitude these folks are talking about implies kilometre-plus diameter gas cells, just to hold up something as massive as a 747. If you want a floating city, you either have to have gas cells the size of continents or float it down in the troposphere where the pressure's higher but there's nasty weather to contend with. (See http://www.mypage.bluewin.ch/airshipsimon/design.html for a basic overview of how an aerostat works.) -- Charlie From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Aug 15 15:18:54 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 01:18:54 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Electoral vote tracking site (was electing ideas etc) References: <20040815042021.67910.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <027b01c482db$2dbb6100$852c2dcb@homepc> Mike wrote: > ... the popular vote doesn't elect the president, the electoral > vote does, sort of like the parliament elects the PM, except > the electors are generally obligated to vote the way the people > in their district voted. Some states don't make this mandatory. > However, this does mean that, as in 2000, it is possible for a > candidate to lose the popular vote nationwide but win enough > electoral districts to win the electoral college. I found this site reasonably informative. http://www.electoral-vote.com Its tracking the electoral vote dispersal based on polls that come in from time to time onto a graphical mapping. This link http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2004/politics101/politics101_ecmap.html invites you to "be Karl Rove or Mary Beth Cahill" and to plot a winning strategy using graphical historical data. I clicked on View Election Trends and found New Hampshire on the list of yellow colored swing states. It says, among other things, that "New Hampshire is one of 2 States in which George W Bush's margin of victory was less than the number of votes for Ralph Nadar - the other was Florida" I noticed the state governor is republican and think I recall you saying he is supportive of (or at least not opposed to the free state project). Do you know what he as a republican thinks of Bush? Do state governors criticise presidents of the same flavour? When you vote in New Hampshire what names will you see on the ballat paper there? Will it be Bush, Kerry and Nadar's names that you'll see or will it rather be the names of electors that you vote for that in turn have promised to vote for particular candidates? Will you get offered a libertarian option? Brett From jonkc at att.net Sun Aug 15 16:12:20 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:12:20 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re:[extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ae01c482e2$b0952280$60fe4d0c@hal2001> I'm (reluctantly) voting for Bush but I think all that swift boat criticism of Kerry is unfair. Take a look at http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=231 It's interesting that none of the vets who damn him served on his boat, while all the men who did serve on it, and presumably know him best, defend him. If Bush is wise he would drop this issue because whatever the truth one thing is clear, Kerry's war record is certainly more heroic than Bush's. I'm voting for Bush despite the Weapons of Mass Destruction fiasco because Kerry, who was on the Senate intelligence committee, was reading the same reports the president was and also believed they were in Iraq; and if our intelligence stinks Kerry is as much to blame as anyone, for 20 years he has been trying to reduce the budget and place more restrictions on the CIA. But my main reason for disliking Kerry is economic, I disagree with his idea that the way to become prosperous is to increase taxes, increase regulation, increase trade barriers , and embrace the hyper expensive and ineffective Kyoto protocols. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From brentn at freeshell.org Sun Aug 15 16:42:50 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 12:42:50 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re:[extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <00ae01c482e2$b0952280$60fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: (8/15/04 12:12) John K Clark wrote: >my main reason for disliking Kerry is economic, I disagree with his idea >that the way to become prosperous is to increase taxes, increase regulation, >increase trade barriers , and embrace the hyper expensive and ineffective >Kyoto protocols. Unlike Bush, whose recipe for success has been to increase protectionist tariffs, increase government spending, and engage in expensive, ultimately fruitless, unilateral 'police actions'? Sure makes sense to me. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From dwish at indco.net Sun Aug 15 18:37:43 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 13:37:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <20040815043715.69210.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This forum seems in general to support the Kerry camp. This is understanding because most in the group seek "radical" changes in the way we live our lives in the future. I also seek to change the world in which we live, but at the same time keep a strong rear view on the past. I don't care for the "Fear" agenda that Bush spreads, but I can't with a clear mind vote for Kerry either. I am a realist in that I know the next President of this great country will be one of these men. Also want scares me more is that the next Democratic rep. to run after this election will be Hillary and Obama which is sooooooo much scarier than Bush or Kerry. So that means my vote will be best counted by voting for someone who will support most of my views even if I disagree with some. That brings me to the point that the Kerry is just a "Feel Good" guy that if anything goes wring then they just need a hug. That scares me. We are facing a group of Muslim men ages 18-25 that have been taught to hate America since they were born. The issue truly rests in that if we tuck tail and run out of Iraq that we lose far more than the men we have lost already. Our country will be a target for anyone that needs their agenda passed to just bomb a church or building and we will give them what they want to not make anyone mad. That is the Kerry camp. Appeasement never works. If as transhumanist, futurist, and mad scientists we should not fighting for truth and understanding through education, legislation, and global information and not be wondering who maybe offended or pissed off. To live in fear is to not live at all. This tone seems to sound in the Bush camp. I can seem to find if Kerry has an opinion at all or if it is just "what do you want to hear and I'll tell you that". I want a man of passion about his principals. That is not the flip flop Kerry camp. Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 11:37 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] --- Brent Neal wrote: > (8/15/04 13:29) Brett Paatsch wrote: > > >Brent Neal: > > > >> I personally intend to cast votes based on pure spite in several > >> elections just for this reason. > > > >Sounds like game theory tit for tat. > > > > Hadn't thought of it that way, but I think that you may be right. Which still doesn't demonstrate any evidence of voting rationally. Tit for tat is decidedly an irrational, instinctual, strategy. > > > I call it voting on the principle of least incompetence. I made the > mistake in 2000 of voting for Harry Browne, the Libertarian > candidate, because the thought of voting for an abject moron like > Bush was morally repugnant (and because anyone that dumb must have > smart handlers that'd be running the show, and I figured correctly > that those handlers would be the same people that were in power > during his father's presidency.) and voting Democrat was something I > wasn't prepared to do. > > So this time around, I'm voting "against someone" instead of "for a > set of principles." And honestly, I don't see any other way at this > point to prevent the US from turning into a complete hell-hole. Kerry > may be just as spineless as any other career politician, but there is > a possibility that he may be 'educatable.' So sayeth John Perry > Barlow, at least. (c.f. > ) Actually, I think > that interview pretty much sums up why libertarians of any stripe > should not be voting for BushCo. ("I donb -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3886 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jonkc at att.net Sun Aug 15 20:13:37 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:13:37 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re:[extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: Message-ID: <002601c48304$66057cc0$d8ff4d0c@hal2001> "Brent Neal" Wrote: > Unlike Bush, whose recipe for success has been to > increase protectionist tariffs, Bush's steel tariff and farm subsidies made no economic sense, but those are one of the very few things you will not hear Kerry or any democrat criticize Bush about. They just want more of it. > increase government spending, Spending has gone up with Bush, it has gone up in every administration since Washington I would guess. I have a hunch it would have gone up even more if 200 voters in Florida had switched sides 4 years ago. As for Kerry, he has about a million and one ideas for new programs, and they will all need money. > and engage in expensive, ultimately fruitless, unilateral 'police > actions'? You mean the police action Kerry voted for, the one to get rid of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq that the CIA said were there, the same CIA Kerry wanted to slash the budget of, the CIA Kerry wanted placed under tighter restrictions so they always act in a gentlemanly way even if it reduced their effectiveness? > Sure makes sense to me. I thought so. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From pfallon at ptd.net Sun Aug 15 21:10:01 2004 From: pfallon at ptd.net (Pat Fallon) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:10:01 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911-objectivereview?] References: Message-ID: <002801c4830c$4d26ef60$1e47bacc@preferrei3lj79> > We are facing a group of Muslim men ages 18-25 that have been > taught to hate America since they were born. IMHO, our interventionist foreign policy hasn't helped any... Take Iran, for instance... The CIA played a large role in overthrowing the Prime Minister of Iran and replaced him with the Shah whose dictatorship and secret police lasted almost 20 years until he was driven from office... when the revolution came, they didn't storm the Zwiss Embasy, they stormed the American Embassy because they hated us... the American CIA had replaced their Prime Minister with a dictator... we create, prop up, discard, and play tyrants off of one another... eventually that shit will catch up to you as it did in Iran... our interventionist foreign policy breeds hatred, it destroys our freedoms here in the US... it will bleed us dry... >The issue truly rests in that if we tuck tail and run out of Iraq >that we lose far more than the men we have lost already. sounds a little deja-viet-namish.... the sooner we admit a mistake and withdraw, the better... > Our country will be a target for anyone that needs their > agenda passed to just bomb a church or building and we > will give them what they want to not make anyone mad. our troops will certainly continue to be a target if we keep them in Iraq... > Appeasement never works. Refraining from disasterous foreign interventionism is not "appeasement." Self defense, YES... installing dictators, proping up kings and princes to secure oil franchises, NO. taxing us to give trillions to foreign countries...no [privatize foreign aid, stop forcing Americans to contribute] Pat Fallon pfallon at ptd.net From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Aug 15 21:56:37 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <3613385A-EEA7-11D8-AD2B-000D9328A216@antipope.org> Message-ID: <20040815215637.1652.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Charlie Stross wrote: > On 12 Aug 2004, at 18:48, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > floating > > cities, anyone? > > Sure. Until ... > > 1. The neighbours on the ground get a bit annoyed > about the city > blocking all their sunlight If the city's not too big and floats high enough, the sunlight goes around them. Much like a cloud. > 2. The neighbours on the ground who you've just > drifted over point out > that under existing international law they have > sovereignty over their > head space, and would you mind implementing their > shari'a legal code > immediately? There's a maximum altitude that applies to. Specifically, nations don't get to apply their law to any satellite (or thing at comparable altitude) that happens to go overhead. Still, the station would presumably do much better simply to avoid those areas - military issues aside, they wouldn't make for good customers. (This being a private venture, they would presumably seek to make money off of it.) > 3. The higher you float your city, the lower the > density of the > surrounding air. Therefore the volume of lift gas > you need to displace > your own mass in air also increases. When you're so > high that > atmospheric pressure is around 1% of sea level, your > aerostat needs to > hold 100 times the volume it encloses at sea level. > The kind of > altitude these folks are talking about implies > kilometre-plus diameter > gas cells, just to hold up something as massive as a > 747. If you want a > floating city, you either have to have gas cells the > size of continents > or float it down in the troposphere where the > pressure's higher but > there's nasty weather to contend with. Depends on how large the city is. This is what I meant by the "engineering issues" they'd have to solve. (And I'm not necessarily saying they are solvable. Not saying they aren't, either.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 21:58:41 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 14:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040815215841.5436.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Don Dartfield wrote: > On Sat, 14 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > On the contrary, Snopes quotes 18 swift boat vets against him, > three > > statements in his favor, and two which are marginal. These numbers > > reflect the stats I posted above: Most vets who served with him > think > > he's unfit. > > It also says that only one of the 18 quoted men actually served under > him, > and that "The other men who served under Kerry's command continue to > speak > positively of him" If they speak positively of him, how about some quotes? Or is this just a statement from the pro-Kerry shill? > and "How well all of these men knew John Kerry is > questionable, and discrepancies between how some of them described > Kerry > thirty-five years ago and how they describe him today suggest that > their > opinions are largely based upon political differences rather than > objective assessments of Kerry's military record." As previously stated, O'Neill's family has been Democrat for generations. Are you saying that other Democrats are trying to sabotage him? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Aug 16 00:44:44 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:44:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Comments to Mr. Larratt of BMEZINE.COM Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040815173506.04f6c6a0@mail.earthlink.net> Greetings - This is my reply to a journalist who wants to pierce our brains and make us look like "real" body modifiers. :-) >Mr. Larratt, > >It is unfortunate that I am not able to post this response to your article >on the website it was printed. Nonetheless, I will send this to you and >hope that you print it on your site where it accepts comments. Thank you. > >It seems that you skipped over any level of finesse in understanding that >my presentation was intentionally shorted to fit the evening's scheduling >(after tech problems during my formerly scheduled time),and in deference >to Stelarc, who graciously invited me to share the stage with him. > >However, even if I had the full 1/2 hour to give my talk, I would not have >taken the audience through the metal wires of posthumanity, but reveled in >the level of collaborative thinking and cross-technological >boundaries. Unlike you, I am not overtly impressed by dribbling three >syllable words from the lips, but find much more "brilliance" in sharing >ideas with those whom I value. This type of "Enigma" intellectual >output?aproaching ideas from varied angles and backgrounds?fom designers >is far more honest. Exploring emotions of designs, however simplex, is >often more refreshing than listening to designers pontificating about >their tools. > >Just as there is a big difference between human and transhuman, there is a >big difference between a transhuman and a posthuman. In the case of the >posthuman, no one knows how it will be actualized. To assume otherwise >would be erroneous. Thus, the best we can do now is to envision and >conceptualize the possible futures and to allow our minds to wander, >outside the restrictive controls of technology, as practiced today. But >we must keep in mind that convictions for body modifications are more than >piercing, tattoos, skin carvings, cosmetic surgery, which do not make one >futuristic. Nor does a cyborg make a transhuman. > >It is puzzling that men or women looking at a woman provokes such >resentment in you. Further, the fact that my biological chromosomal >heritage, whether I carry the gene or not, includes large breasts should >not warrant such crude commentary. Further, I have no idea what "extreme" >cosmetic surgery you are referring to, since I believe the best way to >have cosmetic surgery is moderately and over time. Perhaps you have me >confused with the artist Orlan who uses extreme measures to alter her >body, something that I have little interest in at this point in time. Or >perhaps you came to the conference looking for a gothic freakishness, >which is sorely missing from the transhumanist culture, much to my delight. > >In 1986, Honda's engineers set out to master the "principles of walking." >Such early robotic mechanics is primitive compared to current >technological leaps in mobility and sensory adaptations. Just as the >early biplane glider designed by the Wright Brothers (1899) is primitive >compared to a Boeing 747 jetliner, which will in turn be primitive to >X-planes (RLVs). The early Asimo is certainly a primitive but important >"step" toward the future of robotics not because it is weak, but because >it is a primal and original step. It leads the way for later generations >of assembled body parts and much greater advances that will come into >play. And such understanding is not so foolish when one considers the fact >that robotics has made extraordinary advances in skin manipulation, facial >expression, vocalization and mobility in recent years. > >Perhaps you were not listening when I announced, more than once, that the >engineering (the science and technology) of Primo would be featured and >elaborated on in that evening's Video Fest. Both "Primo's Technology" on >Canadian Cultural TV and the film "Precipice" which details reasons for >the science and technology of Primo prototypes. > >What disturbs me about your type of commentary is that it lacks insight or >shared interest with transhumanism. This is not a bad thing, but the >angst that you expressed to all other than Stelarc and Mann is curious and >one would think that perhaps you identify with what Mann represents, >although I would not put Stelarc in the same genre as Mann. Stelarc is a >highly sophisticated artist. > >Lastly, and this is a side observation: I have often heard comments that >transhumanists should have more fun at conferences rather than portraying >an imbalance of science/technology over culture. Alternatively, if we >have "fun" we are questioned about not being serious enough. Such protests >are far too loud and could be better addressed in conversation than >pointed at unwilling targets. > >Toward progress! > >Natasha Vita-More > > > >Natasha Vita-More >http://www.natasha.cc >---------- >President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org >Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz >http://www.transhuman.org Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Aug 15 23:13:34 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0408132255ecc7765@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040815231334.14906.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > One is a concept of web-based identity management > for people out in > the world, to handle all the myriad email addresses, > web site logins, > files, calendars & schedules, contact lists, etc, > etc, etc that we all > accumulate but that get completely out of hand > (because there's just > so much heterogenous crap to remember, like > usernames/password, or > urls, or whatever). Been done. Google doesn't just have search results for this, it has a bunch of ads from providers. The main flaw: unless you own the servers, someone else owns the machines your identity resides on. How much can you trust them? (Granted, there's some of that even now. This is a lot more.) > I'll expound shortly on a half baked software > development methodology > that I've got brewing in my head, tentatively tagged > "disposable > code". The axioms are "assume you start with a few > spectacular coders, > genius hackers, who can kind of work together, are > individually > irreplaceable, and most of whom don't like working > with each other. > What can you do?". It's a reaction to the regular > methodologies > (standard big system & agile) which assume that you > want to work with > endless fields of stupified code grinders, and that > the brilliant > cowboys in the corner are a liability... The brilliant cowboys, like anyone, could get sick or quit - especially if you (the business manager who can't see anything but $) try to reduce their high pay so you can pocket more profits. Cheap code grinders are widely available, and you still have the code even if its makers quit. In reality, high-quality businesses require truly trusted employees. But try telling the paranoid execs who have fought off all manner of cold-blooded challengers to their business. As to this question itself, the answer is pretty standard, if not often applied within a single business unit: divide the application into each person's responsibilities, and make a solid API. If someone needs a new API, they can negotiate for adding it; the executive managing the project is responsible for maintaining the API document itself, as part of the project management documents (like the task breakdown and schedule). Otherwise, each programmer is responsible for making sure their bit meets the API perfectly (along with other, part-specific responsibilities: databases don't lose data, UIs are usable, and so forth). From brentn at freeshell.org Sun Aug 15 23:17:25 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:17:25 -0400 Subject: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush, was Re: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040815215841.5436.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (8/15/04 14:58) Mike Lorrey wrote: >As previously stated, O'Neill's family has been Democrat for >generations. Are you saying that other Democrats are trying to sabotage him? This sort of partisan thinking is ultimately a red herring. O'Neill has a personal axe to grind against Kerry. I don't care if he's National Socialist or Trotskyite, he's still not an accurate reflection of the opinions of Kerry's comrades-in-arms. He's one wingnut with an agenda. It is my opinion that partisan generalization is a disease of lazy minds. -No one- is a 'good party man;' everyone has a personal agenda, and characterizing people's political views with such a broad brush is the type of thing I'd come to expect from rabid knee-jerk Democrats. It is, I suppose, unsurprising that the mentality exists on the right wing as well. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Aug 15 23:19:31 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:19:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Help! with reading image-based PDFs on a Palm In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04081322381c6e96de@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040815231931.23725.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > So on the > palm, these come out as full page images squeezed > onto the tiny > screen, ie: they are illegible. Tap the image and hold the stylus down. This should cause the image to zoom out to normal size, with scrollbars to slide around the image. (There is a menu option to disable this; if this doesn't work, you may have to go into the Viewing/Preferences menu and re-enable it.) It might have been better for this to happen on tap only, not tap-and-hold. But this is how it is, at least on the Adobe reader on my Palm. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 15 23:31:45 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:31:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040815215637.1652.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040815233145.99458.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Charlie Stross wrote: > > On 12 Aug 2004, at 18:48, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > floating > > > cities, anyone? > > > > Sure. Until ... > > > > 1. The neighbours on the ground get a bit annoyed > > about the city > > blocking all their sunlight > > If the city's not too big and floats high enough, > the sunlight goes around them. Much like a cloud. > > > 2. The neighbours on the ground who you've just > > drifted over point out > > that under existing international law they have > > sovereignty over their > > head space, and would you mind implementing their > > shari'a legal code > > immediately? > > There's a maximum altitude that applies to. > Specifically, nations don't get to apply their law to > any satellite (or thing at comparable altitude) that > happens to go overhead. Still, the station would > presumably do much better simply to avoid those areas > - military issues aside, they wouldn't make for good > customers. (This being a private venture, they would > presumably seek to make money off of it.) > > > 3. The higher you float your city, the lower the > > density of the > > surrounding air. Therefore the volume of lift gas > > you need to displace > > your own mass in air also increases. When you're so > > high that > > atmospheric pressure is around 1% of sea level, your > > aerostat needs to > > hold 100 times the volume it encloses at sea level. > > The kind of > > altitude these folks are talking about implies > > kilometre-plus diameter > > gas cells, just to hold up something as massive as a > > 747. If you want a > > floating city, you either have to have gas cells the > > size of continents > > or float it down in the troposphere where the > > pressure's higher but > > there's nasty weather to contend with. > > Depends on how large the city is. This is what I > meant by the "engineering issues" they'd have to > solve. (And I'm not necessarily saying they are > solvable. Not saying they aren't, either.) Yeah: a) envelope size generally get calculated on helium density. These would be Hydrogen filled cells. b) they could also be HOT hydrogen filled cells, getting lift both from atomic mass differences and thermal volume differences. With buckyfiber envelopes, you could easily engineer an envelope with R factors approaching a thermos bottle. c) the envelope also gets lift from its velocity through the air and its airfoil shape, propelled by microwave powered ion/plasma thrusters. A 747 sized homestead could have an envelope the size of an aircraft carrier. An aircraft carrier could have an envelope a few kilometers large. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Aug 15 23:43:04 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040815233145.99458.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040815234304.36368.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > a) envelope size generally get calculated on helium > density. These > would be Hydrogen filled cells. I'd be worried about helium/hydrogen leaking out the walls. They do this already, slowly; it's not that big a concern since the balloons are expected to return to the ground eventually anyway. But this would be a permanent deployment. > b) they could also be HOT hydrogen filled cells, > getting lift both from > atomic mass differences and thermal volume > differences. With buckyfiber > envelopes, you could easily engineer an envelope > with R factors > approaching a thermos bottle. I'd also be worried about atomic oxygen leaking in and reacting. Heat + fuel (hydrogen) + oxygen = boom, no? > c) the envelope also gets lift from its velocity > through the air and > its airfoil shape, propelled by microwave powered > ion/plasma thrusters. Not as much in the thin atmosphere, though. > A 747 sized homestead could have an envelope the > size of an aircraft > carrier. An aircraft carrier could have an envelope > a few kilometers large. Aircraft carriers are already called miniature cities. They're not nearly as spread out as the real thing, but they are livable (by certain types of people, at least) for several months at a time. And if one substituted hydroponics (powered by solar cells on the gasbags) in place of some of the military systems, resupply wouldn't be as much of an issue. (It'd still be needed from time to time...but then, what proper city doesn't have mail service?) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 00:56:53 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:26:53 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <20040815231334.14906.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040815231334.14906.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040815175646b79df8@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > One is a concept of web-based identity management > > for people out in > > the world, to handle all the myriad email addresses, > > web site logins, > > files, calendars & schedules, contact lists, etc, > > etc, etc that we all > > accumulate but that get completely out of hand > > (because there's just > > so much heterogenous crap to remember, like > > usernames/password, or > > urls, or whatever). > > Been done. Google doesn't just have search results > for this, it has a bunch of ads from providers. The > main flaw: unless you own the servers, someone else > owns the machines your identity resides on. How much > can you trust them? (Granted, there's some of that > even now. This is a lot more.) I had a private email to me pointing me to one of these. I must check them out, see how closely they match what I'm imagining. If they're good, I might try using one, and I'll let people know how it turns out. > > > I'll expound shortly on a half baked software > > development methodology > > that I've got brewing in my head, tentatively tagged > > "disposable > > code". The axioms are "assume you start with a few > > spectacular coders, > > genius hackers, who can kind of work together, are > > individually > > irreplaceable, and most of whom don't like working > > with each other. > > What can you do?". It's a reaction to the regular > > methodologies > > (standard big system & agile) which assume that you > > want to work with > > endless fields of stupified code grinders, and that > > the brilliant > > cowboys in the corner are a liability... > > The brilliant cowboys, like anyone, could get sick or > quit - especially if you (the business manager who > can't see anything but $) try to reduce their high > pay so you can pocket more profits. Cheap code > grinders are widely available, and you still have the > code even if its makers quit. I'm well aware of the problems with using excellent people with unique skills/talents (rather than cookie-cutout grinders), but I think those problems can be ameliorated using the right approach. Mostly it's all variations on the theme of modularity. People have been slagging off the loner coders for a long time now, you know, those mad geeks who can't communicate but can churn out magic code that no one else can, and no one can understand. I think, given that most of our systems are built on a lot of this crazy magic code built by these guys (imo), it might be better to not throw out the baby with the bath water, and instead find a way to work with them. btw, I don't think the grind method is necessarily wrong, I just think there are valid alternatives. > > In reality, high-quality businesses require truly > trusted employees. But try telling the paranoid > execs who have fought off all manner of cold-blooded > challengers to their business. > Yup. > As to this question itself, the answer is pretty > standard, if not often applied within a single > business unit: divide the application into each > person's responsibilities, and make a solid API. If > someone needs a new API, they can negotiate for adding > it; the executive managing the project is responsible > for maintaining the API document itself, as part of > the project management documents (like the task > breakdown and schedule). Otherwise, each programmer > is responsible for making sure their bit meets the API > perfectly (along with other, part-specific > responsibilities: databases don't lose data, UIs are > usable, and so forth). That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but I've got a mad idea about self documenting APIs (think web services, but promoted to the level of abstraction of a java space), and distributed systems composed almost solely of loosely coupled small pieces, so that the overall central control of the api is less necessary, and so individual pieces can be replaced almost at whim. There's more to it than this... I must sit down and blog this thing. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From megaquark at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 01:28:39 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:28:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><710b78fc040814162553b4b4f4@mail.gmail.com> <411EDEA3.6090302@cox.net> Message-ID: I agree with your point...Yet your point is disturbing. The drive for ever faster processing speeds and exponential increases in storage capacity was created by our willingness to pay top dollar for the improvements. What you are saying is that now, since we no longer have that need, the market for these improvements in processing speeds and storage is no longer there. (I have had 40GB for going on 3 years and still only use 9 of it.) If this is the case, then it is just a matter of time before companies realize it and stop investing as much into improvements in these areas. Moore's Law would become a thing of the past and singularity would move even farther beyond the horizon. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Clemmensen" To: "Emlyn" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... > We joke about this, but the reality is different. > > At some point during the last ten years, most of us crossed a threshold. > Prior to the threshold, We did not have enough disk space or processing > power. We spent as much money on a computer as our comfort level > allowed, and it was not enough. Now, for most of us we have enough. When > is the last time you checked the percentage of usage of your disk? when > is the last time you thought "gee this operation is taking too long." > (not counting problems with viruses and malware.) Think back ten years. > One of the big deals then was figuring out which disk compression > software to use. > > Most broadband providers have a cap at 2GB/month. A 1TB disk will hold > more than 2 years of downloads, at a current cost of about $1000. ($500 > for the disks and $500 for the computer to hold the disks.) A 100TB disk > would hold 200 years of downloads at today's rates. > > Assuming no monthly cap, look at it another way. An individual can > probably assimilate <1Mbps for < 8hours/day (average.) that's > (1Mb/8)*3600*8, or 3.6GB/day. That's 1TB/mo, or 100TB in 8 years. > > Emlyn wrote: > > >Excellent! A couple of those might be able to hold a few weeks of my > >mailing list and rss feed subscriptions. > > > >Emlyn > > > >On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:47:39 -0500, Damien Broderick > > wrote: > > > > > >>Breakthrough Nanotechnology Will Bring 100 Terabyte 3.5-inch Digital Data > >>Storage Disks > >> > >>http://www.physorg.com/news785.html > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 01:36:19 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:36:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit911-objectivereview?] References: <002801c4830c$4d26ef60$1e47bacc@preferrei3lj79> Message-ID: Let's not forget our FAILURE to intervene in Liberia last year when both parties were looking forward to our presence. The entire issue was created by the way we just packed up and left Liberia after the Soviet Union crumbled. Now they are looking to stabilize and are looking for $14million to get their electric back on in Monrovia and no one seems to care... Liberia just isn;t big enough news to justify messing with, so we ignore it. I'm willing to go out on a limb here though. I think the terrible foreign policy is directly caused by the general public's lack of knowledge about the world. The government only reacts to things they think will get them re-elected and the voters only care about the things that the news media tell them to care about. If the people had a clue and gave a shit, I think our entire foreign policy would change and we wouldn;t have so many people that hate us. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Fallon" To: ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit911-objectivereview?] > > We are facing a group of Muslim men ages 18-25 that have been > > taught to hate America since they were born. > > > IMHO, our interventionist foreign policy hasn't helped any... > > Take Iran, for instance... > The CIA played a large role in overthrowing the Prime Minister of Iran > and replaced him with the Shah whose dictatorship and secret police > lasted almost 20 years until he was driven from office... > > when the revolution came, they didn't storm the Zwiss Embasy, > they stormed the American Embassy because they hated us... > the American CIA had replaced their Prime Minister with a dictator... > > we create, prop up, discard, and play tyrants off of one another... > eventually that shit will catch up to you as it did in Iran... > > our interventionist foreign policy breeds hatred, > it destroys our freedoms here in the US... > it will bleed us dry... > > >The issue truly rests in that if we tuck tail and run out of Iraq > >that we lose far more than the men we have lost already. > > sounds a little deja-viet-namish.... > the sooner we admit a mistake and withdraw, the better... > > > Our country will be a target for anyone that needs their > > agenda passed to just bomb a church or building and we > > will give them what they want to not make anyone mad. > > our troops will certainly continue to be a target if we keep them in Iraq... > > > Appeasement never works. > > Refraining from disasterous foreign interventionism is not "appeasement." > > Self defense, YES... > installing dictators, proping up kings and princes to secure oil franchises, > NO. > taxing us to give trillions to foreign countries...no > [privatize foreign aid, stop forcing Americans to contribute] > > Pat Fallon > pfallon at ptd.net > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dgc at cox.net Mon Aug 16 01:47:01 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:47:01 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><710b78fc040814162553b4b4f4@mail.gmail.com> <411EDEA3.6090302@cox.net> Message-ID: <41201215.2030500@cox.net> Don't worry, there are a lot of drivers for investment in performance increases in semiconductors and storage, and the phenomenon you worry about is already pervasive. You can apply more computational power to a problem in either or two ways: you can get faster processors, or more processors. We are getting increasingly better at distributed computing. Yes it's hard,a nd yes, it works better for some problems than for others. But our canonical worked example for intelligence, the biological brain, appears to be a massively distributed implementation. For disk drives, we see exactly the "problem" you mention. Drives have quit doubling in capacity, and instead are now dropping in price, specifically because a nominal 1-drive system has "enough" capacity. You should look at http://www.pricewatch.com occasionally to get a feel for this trend. Disk capacity improvement have consistently outpaced processors performance improvements for at least the last five years. The current "sweet spot" for cost/GB is at about 250GB for $.50/GB, at retail. Add $500 for a cheap computer to house four drives: you get 1TB for $1000. The only way I know to use this much disk at home is to store DVDs. Storing audio CDs hardly counts: my entire CD collection fits on <<300GB with lossless compression. You can store about 5 audio CDs with lossless compression (flac) in one GB, for a storage cost of $.20/CD. Storage cost for a DVD would be about $4.00, which is a small fraction the purchase price of a DVD. In my case I have a legal, physical CD for each of the CD images on disk, but you can see why the RIAA and MPAA are panicking. If the semiconductor manufacturers move off the performance curve, they will simply move to the price curve instead. We will see retail computers at $100. With the semiconductor content dropping in price each year. due to intense competition on margins. But this means that the cost of building a cluster will drop dramatically, so the singularity continues to advance at its inexorable pace. Kevin Freels wrote: >I agree with your point...Yet your point is disturbing. The drive for ever >faster processing speeds and exponential increases in storage capacity was >created by our willingness to pay top dollar for the improvements. What you >are saying is that now, since we no longer have that need, the market for >these improvements in processing speeds and storage is no longer there. (I >have had 40GB for going on 3 years and still only use 9 of it.) > >If this is the case, then it is just a matter of time before companies >realize it and stop investing as much into improvements in these areas. >Moore's Law would become a thing of the past and singularity would move even >farther beyond the horizon. > >From: "Dan Clemmensen" > > >>We joke about this, but the reality is different. >> >>At some point during the last ten years, most of us crossed a threshold. >>Prior to the threshold, We did not have enough disk space or processing >>power. We spent as much money on a computer as our comfort level >>allowed, and it was not enough. Now, for most of us we have enough. When >>is the last time you checked the percentage of usage of your disk? when >>is the last time you thought "gee this operation is taking too long." >>(not counting problems with viruses and malware.) Think back ten years. >>One of the big deals then was figuring out which disk compression >>software to use. >> >>Most broadband providers have a cap at 2GB/month. A 1TB disk will hold >>more than 2 years of downloads, at a current cost of about $1000. ($500 >>for the disks and $500 for the computer to hold the disks.) A 100TB disk >>would hold 200 years of downloads at today's rates. >> >>Assuming no monthly cap, look at it another way. An individual can >>probably assimilate <1Mbps for < 8hours/day (average.) that's >>(1Mb/8)*3600*8, or 3.6GB/day. That's 1TB/mo, or 100TB in 8 years. >> >> >> From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 16 02:23:33 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:23:33 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is it in the interests of US citizens? Message-ID: <02e901c48338$075dc6d0$852c2dcb@homepc> Good to see you posting again John. Do you think that international law exists? I do although I think it is farcical at present because not enough people in the US (the world's most powerful nation state) see that it is in their personal selfish interest. If I recall you used to argue that the only laws were scientific ones. Which made me wonder about you views on contract law. If you do, do you think the development of perhaps some minimal level of international law is in your personal interest? Brett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 02:29:38 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:59:38 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <41201215.2030500@cox.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><710b78fc040814162553b4b4f4@mail.gmail.com> <411EDEA3.6090302@cox.net> <41201215.2030500@cox.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc04081519291d4023ed@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:47:01 -0400, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Don't worry, there are a lot of drivers for investment in performance > increases > in semiconductors and storage, and the phenomenon you worry about is already > pervasive. > > You can apply more computational power to a problem in either or two ways: > you can get faster processors, or more processors. We are getting > increasingly better > at distributed computing. Yes it's hard,a nd yes, it works better for > some problems > than for others. But our canonical worked example for intelligence, the > biological brain, > appears to be a massively distributed implementation. We need to be looking at new solutions to the software problem too (ie: the problem that software technology is not increasing in-line with hardware, because it's still hand-coded). As we get gruntier hardware, hopefully we'll begin to see stupidly wasteful software generators, based on things like genetic algorithms. So we can start moving further down the track of all spec, no manual implementation software, which will change things dramatically. > > For disk drives, we see exactly the "problem" you mention. Drives have > quit doubling > in capacity, and instead are now dropping in price, specifically because > a nominal 1-drive > system has "enough" capacity. You should look at > http://www.pricewatch.com > occasionally to get a feel for this trend. Disk capacity improvement > have consistently > outpaced processors performance improvements for at least the last five > years. The current > "sweet spot" for cost/GB is at about 250GB for $.50/GB, at retail. Add > $500 for a cheap > computer to house four drives: you get 1TB for $1000. I figured out you could do a TB for $1000 a couple of weeks ago... it blows my mind. By the way, I still use up all my drive space (eg: 120gb drives), mostly due to VMWare. I use virtual machines with abandon for developing and testing distributed systems. Powerful stuff! > > The only way I know to use this much disk at home is to store DVDs. > Storing audio > CDs hardly counts: my entire CD collection fits on <<300GB with lossless > compression. > You can store about 5 audio CDs with lossless compression (flac) in one > GB, for a storage > cost of $.20/CD. Storage cost for a DVD would be about $4.00, which is a > small fraction > the purchase price of a DVD. In my case I have a legal, physical CD for > each of the CD images > on disk, but you can see why the RIAA and MPAA are panicking. They are panicking because they're struggling to wring the last drops out of last decade's business model, but they don't have a good alternative for this decade. I can tell them what it is, for free... run sites like the russian mp3 download sites, selling songs for 10c each, or albums for $1, and make it fast and easy to download. Problem is they've taken too long to set it up, and now the pirates have beaten them to the punch. Poor old recording industry, boo hoo. Or, hey I know, why don't they just piss off and leave artists and audience to interact directly online? > > If the semiconductor manufacturers move off the performance curve, they > will simply move > to the price curve instead. We will see retail computers at $100. Yeah! Bring it on! > With > the semiconductor content > dropping in price each year. due to intense competition on margins. But > this means that > the cost of building a cluster will drop dramatically, so the > singularity continues to advance > at its inexorable pace. > Don't worry Kevin. We'll keep finding ways to use all that mighty hardware, I promise. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 02:39:23 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:09:23 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <411EDEA3.6090302@cox.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040814174710.01c68ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <710b78fc040814162553b4b4f4@mail.gmail.com> <411EDEA3.6090302@cox.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc040815193950a851ef@mail.gmail.com> "I think there is a world market for maybe 5 computers" Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943 "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home" Ken Olson, chairman & founder of Digital equipment, 1977 "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is ingerently of no value to us." Western Union internal memo, 1876 "640 K ought to be enough for anybody." Bill Gates, 1981 "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." popular mechanics, 1949 (nicked from http://web.inter.nl.net/users/pwilkins/ITquotes.html) Come on, let's not let our imaginations fail us now. Pop quiz: What will the consumer computer environment look like when we have $100 machines with 100GB of memory on board, 100TB of drive space, and lets say 10mbit/s internet connections as average speed? Actually, that's not as interesting as asking what it will mean when everyone has wearables (PDAs+++) with the same capacity as our current desktops, and, say, 300kbps wireless internet connections that work everywhere? (btw, I already have a consumer level device here, on my desk at work, in Adelaide Australia, which has 300kbps wireless net connection, with browser etc, that works every, connected to a 3G network. Yeah!) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 23:55:15 -0400, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > We joke about this, but the reality is different. > > At some point during the last ten years, most of us crossed a threshold. > Prior to the threshold, We did not have enough disk space or processing > power. We spent as much money on a computer as our comfort level > allowed, and it was not enough. Now, for most of us we have enough. When > is the last time you checked the percentage of usage of your disk? when > is the last time you thought "gee this operation is taking too long." > (not counting problems with viruses and malware.) Think back ten years. > One of the big deals then was figuring out which disk compression > software to use. > > Most broadband providers have a cap at 2GB/month. A 1TB disk will hold > more than 2 years of downloads, at a current cost of about $1000. ($500 > for the disks and $500 for the computer to hold the disks.) A 100TB disk > would hold 200 years of downloads at today's rates. > > Assuming no monthly cap, look at it another way. An individual can > probably assimilate <1Mbps for < 8hours/day (average.) that's > (1Mb/8)*3600*8, or 3.6GB/day. That's 1TB/mo, or 100TB in 8 years. > > > > Emlyn wrote: > > >Excellent! A couple of those might be able to hold a few weeks of my > >mailing list and rss feed subscriptions. > > > >Emlyn > > > >On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:47:39 -0500, Damien Broderick > > wrote: > > > > > >>Breakthrough Nanotechnology Will Bring 100 Terabyte 3.5-inch Digital Data > >>Storage Disks > >> > >>http://www.physorg.com/news785.html > >> > >> > >> > > From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Aug 16 03:24:55 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 23:24:55 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush In-Reply-To: <00ae01c482e2$b0952280$60fe4d0c@hal2001> References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> John K Clark wrote: >It's interesting that none of the vets who damn him served on his boat, >while all the men who did serve on it, and presumably know him best, >defend him. Those who praise him were his subordinates. Those who damn him were his peers and superiors (up to Admiral Zumwalt). To some extent, the peers were present at the same events as the subordinates, literally a few feet away. Overall, they would provide data and judgments on different aspects of his performance than subordinates would. Recognizing this, the performance appraisal mechanism at Hewlett-Packard combined input from everyone in the division who had worked with the employee. I assessed the subordinate members of my team, members of other teams, my peer project leaders, my manager, and his peers. It was time-consuming, but I thought it worked effectively. >If Bush is wise he would drop this issue because whatever the truth one >thing is clear, Kerry's war record is certainly more heroic than Bush's. You presume that Bush is behind this. He may be, but there is not clear evidence either way. I've heard lengthy interviews with some of the vets in opposition. They provide a credible story that Kerry was dangerous and dishonest, and lied to get most or all of his medals. (This is something servicemen take very seriously -- you may recall a few years ago there was a fuss about the Chief of Naval Operations wearing a medal he was not entitled to. He wound up committing suicide rather than face the disgrace.) For me, I'm not surprised by the revelations. In particular, the lengthy profile that the Boston Globe did of him made it clear that he was a putz as far back as prep school, and continues this behavior to this day. (Many Boston locals have stories about unpleasant chance encounters with Kerry.) The profile is available on the Globe's web site, and has a link to the ~1971 Doonesbury cartoons lampooning his self-aggrandizing. >Kerry's war record is certainly more heroic than Bush's. I think that qualifies as the logical fallacy tu quoque. Someone else's character and accomplishments are not pertinent to assessing Kerry's. Personally, I am much more interested in what Kerry did in the Senate than what he did in Vietnam, but Kerry has chosen to focus on his four-month record in-country, so it certainly seems legitimate to consider the merits of what he presents as his greatest accomplishments. -- David Lubkin. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 03:26:20 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is it in the interests of US citizens? Message-ID: <20040816032620.41422.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> how can intl law bein yr self intrst if you never read them? --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Good to see you posting again John. > > Do you think that international law exists? I do although I think it is > farcical at present because not enough people in the US (the world's > most powerful nation state) see that it is in their personal selfish > interest. If I recall you used to argue that the only laws were > scientific ones. Which made me wonder about you views on contract law. > > If you do, do you think the development of perhaps some minimal level of > international law is in your personal interest? > > Brett > > ------------ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 03:32:43 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040815175646b79df8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040816033243.26292.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > People have been slagging off the loner coders for a > long time now, > you know, those mad geeks who can't communicate but > can churn out > magic code that no one else can, and no one can > understand. *cough* And the more I see the reality of that stereotype, the more I see it to be false. Maybe I am one of those mad geeks, but so long as I have the source code, I've been able to reverse engineer any system I've tried to. That has, in fact, been a necessity on some of my jobs, due to sheer lack of any other documentation. Then again, people like me tend to charge a lot for our services. Businesspeople sometimes call something "impossible" when it's actually just "impossible to do really cheaply". > btw, I don't think the grind method is necessarily > wrong, I just think > there are valid alternatives. Ditto. There are times when non-trivial costs are justified - mainly when the potential profits are even greater. (One would think businesspeople would understand the concept of "investment"...) > That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but I've > got a mad idea > about self documenting APIs (think web services, but > promoted to the > level of abstraction of a java space), Been there. Done that. Self-documentation is a nice start, but unless you have some way of conveying the meaning of each thing (at a minimum, well-chosen names instead of stuff like "double doShmoo(short a, short b, float x)"), it falls flat on its face. > and > distributed systems > composed almost solely of loosely coupled small > pieces, so that the > overall central control of the api is less > necessary, You don't directly need central control of the API. You do need a central document source, and certification for each change that all affected parties acknowledge and will comply with it. For large groups, this can be done semi-autonomously - if (and only if) the involved parties can agree to it. But as you said, this is for a project where the independent coders don't talk to each other very well, thus the need for central control: to facilitate communication and make sure some agreement is reached. Otherwise, you'll have coder A working to his version of the API and coder B working to her version, and find bugs where the two versions conflict. (Say, if coder A figured out that doShmoo() only returns positive integers, and thus changed its type to int, but coder B was doing bit-shifting tricks with the result that only work for a double.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 03:34:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... Message-ID: <20040816033451.82685.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> (I have had 40GB for going on 3 years and still only use 9 of it.) your problm is not enuf pron in ur life..... :) --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > I agree with your point...Yet your point is disturbing. The drive for ever > faster processing speeds and exponential increases in storage capacity was > created by our willingness to pay top dollar for the improvements. What you > are saying is that now, since we no longer have that need, the market for > these improvements in processing speeds and storage is no longer there. (I > have had 40GB for going on 3 years and still only use 9 of it.) > > If this is the case, then it is just a matter of time before companies > realize it and stop investing as much into improvements in these areas. > Moore's Law would become a thing of the past and singularity would move even > farther beyond the horizon. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Clemmensen" > To: "Emlyn" ; "ExI chat list" > > Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2004 10:55 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... > > > > We joke about this, but the reality is different. > > > > At some point during the last ten years, most of us crossed a threshold. > > Prior to the threshold, We did not have enough disk space or processing > > power. We spent as much money on a computer as our comfort level > > allowed, and it was not enough. Now, for most of us we have enough. When > > is the last time you checked the percentage of usage of your disk? when > > is the last time you thought "gee this operation is taking too long." > > (not counting problems with viruses and malware.) Think back ten years. > > One of the big deals then was figuring out which disk compression > > software to use. > > > > Most broadband providers have a cap at 2GB/month. A 1TB disk will hold > > more than 2 years of downloads, at a current cost of about $1000. ($500 > > for the disks and $500 for the computer to hold the disks.) A 100TB disk > > would hold 200 years of downloads at today's rates. > > > > Assuming no monthly cap, look at it another way. An individual can > > probably assimilate <1Mbps for < 8hours/day (average.) that's > > (1Mb/8)*3600*8, or 3.6GB/day. That's 1TB/mo, or 100TB in 8 years. > > > > Emlyn wrote: > > > > >Excellent! A couple of those might be able to hold a few weeks of my > > >mailing list and rss feed subscriptions. > > > > > >Emlyn > > > > > >On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 17:47:39 -0500, Damien Broderick > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > >>Breakthrough Nanotechnology Will Bring 100 Terabyte 3.5-inch Digital > Data > > >>Storage Disks > > >> > > >>http://www.physorg.com/news785.html > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 16 03:48:32 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:48:32 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is it in theinterests of US citizens? References: <20040816032620.41422.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <031c01c48343$e6c193f0$852c2dcb@homepc> Mike Lorrey: > how can intl law bein yr self intrst if you never read them? Mike are you saying I don't read them, or you don't read them or the folks that disagree with you don't read them? I don't know what you are saying? Brett From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 04:31:47 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:01:47 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <20040816033243.26292.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040816033243.26292.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040815213172c33801@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:32:43 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > People have been slagging off the loner coders for a > > long time now, > > you know, those mad geeks who can't communicate but > > can churn out > > magic code that no one else can, and no one can > > understand. > > *cough* And the more I see the reality of that > stereotype, the more I see it to be false. Maybe I am > one of those mad geeks, but so long as I have the > source code, I've been able to reverse engineer any > system I've tried to. That has, in fact, been a > necessity on some of my jobs, due to sheer lack of any > other documentation. Sure, that's most of coding in my opinion (ie: normal). My experience is that you either get no doco, or out of date doco, with extremely few exceptions. These days, I prefer that coders take a simple approach to begin with, don't bother with too much doco (save for architectural documentation and maybe a paragraph on each component (often I mean binary here) of a system, do document funky stuff in the source code (ie: explain what & why), and basically don't worry too much about the rest. But writing the code clearly to begin with really takes the pain away in most cases. I'm going to be inconsistent now and say that I think communication is strongly necessary in a development team. But it doesn't have to be done entirely by the coders themselves, especially if they aren't people people. Better to get rid of the idea of team leader and go for a communcation facilitator, someone who runs around (b&m or virtually), talks to everyone, keeps an idea of how things are going, and helps those people who need to talk to actually talk. For the most part, when two bits of system written by two seperate people need to talk, they don't really need rigorous API definitions imposed from above, they just need to communicate, with help if necessary. Two smart coders can work that stuff out between them. > > Then again, people like me tend to charge a lot for > our services. Businesspeople sometimes call something > "impossible" when it's actually just "impossible to do > really cheaply". I wonder if the thinking goes something like this... You can get Shakespeare by giving typewriters to an infinite number of monkeys. Infinite and lots are pretty much the same. Thus if I hire (and presumably shave and dress) many monkeys, and give them keyboards, I can get the software equivalent of Shakespeare (after all, it's just typing with the words spelled wrong). I can replace monkeys easier than real coders. Hey, that's a business plan! Theoretical problems include (1) lots is not infinite (lots and lots and lots is still not infinite), and even if you get Shakespeare code, how will you find it in all that muck? Practical problems include (see own career for reference). > > > btw, I don't think the grind method is necessarily > > wrong, I just think > > there are valid alternatives. > > Ditto. There are times when non-trivial costs are > justified - mainly when the potential profits are even > greater. (One would think businesspeople would > understand the concept of "investment"...) I used to think so :-( > > > That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but I've > > got a mad idea > > about self documenting APIs (think web services, but > > promoted to the > > level of abstraction of a java space), > > Been there. Done that. Self-documentation is a nice > start, but unless you have some way of conveying the > meaning of each thing (at a minimum, well-chosen names > instead of stuff like "double doShmoo(short a, short > b, float x)"), it falls flat on its face. You can do that. You might have to enforce people maintaining this stuff, but in the windows world I know that COM objects will do this just fine (carry big descriptions along with methods and objects). .Net probably does (haven't dug deeply enough yet, but it certainly does reflection well), and Web Services do too (although they don't seem to be object oriented). > > > and > > distributed systems > > composed almost solely of loosely coupled small > > pieces, so that the > > overall central control of the api is less > > necessary, > > You don't directly need central control of the API. > You do need a central document source, Yes, I agree with this. Top level stuff is most important; which bits talk to which other bits and why (how is also good, but less important). > and > certification for each change that all affected > parties acknowledge and will comply with it. This can be lightweight but should be event driven - an email list or the kind of emailed notification that lots of source control systems provide will do the job; how tough do you think certification of acknowledgement & compliance needs to be? Read receipts on the emails might do if you are worried. > For > large groups, this can be done semi-autonomously - if > (and only if) the involved parties can agree to it. I guess I've addressed this above, I agree. It depends on the task too; an interface between two components is easier to negotiate ad-hoc than an interface used by half of the teams in an organisation. > But as you said, this is for a project where the > independent coders don't talk to each other very well, > thus the need for central control: to facilitate > communication and make sure some agreement is reached. I never like this, because people are too likely to let the api be set in stone and kludge around it rather than changing it when necessary. A good principle to keep in mind is the ability to extend your api without breaking old stuff, covers a lot of the ground of adapting your api. My alternative to central control is yet again to have someone who primarily facilitates (subtly forces :-)) communication. You can call this person team lead, or head chat monkey, it matters not. But the role is kind of coach/mentor/facilitator, and requires a really good communicator (who is also technically competent if not excellent). > Otherwise, you'll have coder A working to his version > of the API and coder B working to her version, and > find bugs where the two versions conflict. (Say, if > coder A figured out that doShmoo() only returns > positive integers, and thus changed its type to int, > but coder B was doing bit-shifting tricks with the > result that only work for a double.) Sure, yes. But that's often easier to fix than people think, as long as someone is around to calm everyone down. Just don't be scared to change code. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 04:46:51 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:46:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04081519291d4023ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040816044651.77158.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > I figured out you could do a TB for $1000 a couple > of weeks ago... it > blows my mind. Amusing point: just last week, I completed some contract programming for a startup (so we're not talking billions of dollars), and one of the test conditions for this program was making sure it could work with multi-yottabyte disk allocations. The details of what it was doing with that much space are confidential, unfortunately. But my software did pass the test. (Lesson learned: if you're tracking bytes in Perl, watch out when you pass around 909 TB. At around 910 TB - 16 decimal digits - Perl starts insisting on displaying integers as scientific notation, with some loss of accuracy. There are libraries to help get around this, if one remembers to use them.) > Don't worry Kevin. We'll keep finding ways to use > all that mighty > hardware, I promise. For much of my career, I've been practicing techniques to not use excess memory, writing small and fast programs. Make sure they could operate in parallel cleanly, so if my client needed a lot more of them (say, customer interface software for e-commerce sites which start getting a lot more customers per unit time), they could simply buy more hardware and load the same software. But I do have to wonder. In many industries, large enough quantity has often taken on a quality all its own. How many nodes are in, say, a rat's brain? What was the memory capacity, again? If we could write a perfect emulation of that, it seems likely that merely scaling up (with tweaking to represent any specified-by-genetics initial weights and external connections) could imitate a dog's brain, or a chimp's brain, or a human's, especially if wired up to a robot with the same approximate sensor/motor bandwidth. (How many rods and cones in each eye, again? Megapixel, or more? Certainly more than a low-end toy camera's, the ones used by many research project androids today.) From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 05:14:08 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 22:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040815213172c33801@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040816051408.54326.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > Better to get rid of the idea of team > leader and go for > a communcation facilitator, someone who runs around > (b&m or > virtually), talks to everyone, keeps an idea of how > things are going, > and helps those people who need to talk to actually > talk. It's been my experience that that is a good team leader for engineering projects, when you have competent engineers. (The leader also has to make sure the engineers are competent and not slacking off, but that's part of what you said.) > For the most > part, when two bits of system written by two > seperate people need to > talk, they don't really need rigorous API > definitions imposed from > above, they just need to communicate, with help if > necessary. Two > smart coders can work that stuff out between them. Is that what you understood? Sorry for the confusion. I didn't mean to imply that the boss would define the API (except in rare circumstances where the programmers couldn't agree), but rather keep the API and make sure all the coders know of any changes to it relevant to their parts. The API itself would be built up from agreements between the coders; the initial draft might be little more than the theoretical component communications plan that someone (maybe the boss) thought up when laying out who would do what. > I wonder if the thinking goes something like this... > > You can get Shakespeare by giving typewriters to an > infinite number of monkeys. > Infinite and lots are pretty much the same. > Thus if I hire (and presumably shave and dress) many > monkeys, and give > them keyboards, I can get the software equivalent of > Shakespeare > (after all, it's just typing with the words spelled > wrong). I can > replace monkeys easier than real coders. > > Hey, that's a business plan! I think it's closer to: This smart guy could build this software. But he costs a lot. Well, what do I need him for? He's a programmer. I can get programmers cheaply this other way. Such a bargain! And I can pocket the difference myself, because everyone knows executives have high salaries and all sorts of perks. Money, money, money...hey, what do you mean, you've run into technical problems? Don't tell me I need to spend a lot of money to fix it. I've already earned my money. The business can't afford expensive talent. You can't fix it? You're fired! How hard can it be to fix this myself? Well, okay, maybe I need another grunt to take care of this thing. ...gee, I tell everyone my problem and only the really expensive guys look at all like they can fix it. How dare they charge me so much! I'll hire them because I have no choice, but they're rotten people for parting me from MY money! And worse, they actually think I'm making mistakes! They've never run a business; they don't even have MBAs! How could they possibly know anything other than programming? Even if that one customer who got around my flunkies the other day and talked to me said exactly the same thing. Nah, they've got to be lying. If they were telling the truth, surely my junior executives who depend on my good will for their continued employment would tell me I'm wrong. (No, I'm not exaggerating. I speak from sad experience with too many greedy executives. I wish it were otherwise.) > > Been there. Done that. Self-documentation is a > nice > > start, but unless you have some way of conveying > the > > meaning of each thing (at a minimum, well-chosen > names > > instead of stuff like "double doShmoo(short a, > short > > b, float x)"), it falls flat on its face. > > You can do that. You might have to enforce people > maintaining this > stuff, That's my point: you do have to enforce (at least, if you've got coders who don't do this automatically, and not all good programmers know the value of it). Self-documentation isn't the "drop it in unaided and watch your problems go away" solution many managers think is the only thing that would be sold as a "solution". > > and > > certification for each change that all affected > > parties acknowledge and will comply with it. > > This can be lightweight but should be event driven - > an email list or > the kind of emailed notification that lots of source > control systems > provide will do the job; how tough do you think > certification of > acknowledgement & compliance needs to be? Read > receipts on the emails > might do if you are worried. Better to have a link to click to acknowledge, especially if you have a distributed project where you can't rely on read receipts getting through (or being generated). You're trying to make sure the information got into the recipient's brain, not just the recipient's inbox. > > But as you said, this is for a project where the > > independent coders don't talk to each other very > well, > > thus the need for central control: to facilitate > > communication and make sure some agreement is > reached. > > My alternative to central control is yet again to > have someone who > primarily facilitates (subtly forces :-)) > communication. I think we said the same thing here. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 05:31:13 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:01:13 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <20040816051408.54326.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040816051408.54326.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0408152231609a4b84@mail.gmail.com> > > My alternative to central control is yet again to > > have someone who > > primarily facilitates (subtly forces :-)) > > communication. > > I think we said the same thing here. > Pretty much. Maybe I need to not be quite such an anarchist :-) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 16 05:34:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:04:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <20040816044651.77158.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040816044651.77158.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04081522343ca38a4e@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:46:51 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > Amusing point: just last week, I completed some > contract programming for a startup (so we're not > talking billions of dollars), and one of the test > conditions for this program was making sure it could > work with multi-yottabyte disk allocations. > > The details of what it was doing with that much space > are confidential, unfortunately. My guess... you were putting together some trivial app for Defense. You submitted it on a floppy, but the yottas were for the required documentation... -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 16 08:18:46 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:18:46 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] References: Message-ID: <000b01c48369$a6b8cc30$852c2dcb@homepc> Brent Neal wrote: > .. voting on the principle of least incompetence. If only it would catch on. > http://www.reason.com/0408/fe.bd.john.shtm Good article. Maybe some will read excerpts that won't read 16 pages. " ..by virtue of our abdication, a very authoritarian, assertive form of government has taken over. And oddly enough, it is doing so in the guise of libertarianism to a certain extent. Most of the people in the think tanks behind the Bush administration?s current policies are libertarians, or certainly free marketeers. We?ve got two distinct strains of libertarianism, and the hippie-mystic strain is not engaging in politics, and the Ayn Rand strain is basically dismantling government in a way that is giving complete open field running to multinational corporatism." " From a multinational?s standpoint, the best thing that can happen is the best thing that can happen right now. They have to deliver maximum shareholder value today, next quarter, which means that they don?t worry about whether there are going to be resources for them to exploit in 10 years." The following seems to resonates with Spike's comments: "TV in America created the most coherent reality distortion field that I?ve ever seen. Therein is the problem: People who vote watch TV, and they are hallucinating like a sonofabitch. Basically, what we have in this country is government by hallucinating mob." --- Brett From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Mon Aug 16 09:49:52 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:49:52 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <20040816044651.77158.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040816044651.77158.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Emlyn wrote: >> I figured out you could do a TB for $1000 a couple >> of weeks ago... it >> blows my mind. > >Amusing point: just last week, I completed some >contract programming for a startup (so we're not >talking billions of dollars), and one of the test >conditions for this program was making sure it could >work with multi-yottabyte disk allocations. Yottabytes? I was told that the dot-com era was over :-) Seriously, a yottabyte is 10^15 GB (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix for these funny prefixes). I'm pretty sure it's more than the total harddisk capacity of the entire planet. Sure this company is *not* just interested in the next quarterly financial statement, but it's in for the long run. Alfio From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 12:43:04 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 05:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is it in theinterests of US citizens? Message-ID: <20040816124304.97230.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> brett said: Mike are you saying I dont read th( --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Mike Lorrey: > > > how can intl law bein yr self intrst if you never read them? > > Mike are you saying I don't read them, or you don't read them > or the folks that disagree with you don't read them? I don't > know what you are saying? > > Brett > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Mon Aug 16 12:58:26 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:58:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <411DD121.8060205@optusnet.com.au> References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <842D9168-ED40-11D8-B92E-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <411DD121.8060205@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On 14 Aug 2004, at 10:45, David wrote: > We also use Preferential Voting. There is a quick explanation of each > here: > > http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/single/by_category/preferential.htm > > http://www.eca.gov.au/systems/proportional/proportion_rep.htm > > One of the benefits of the preferential system is that by listing your > preferences in the right order you can make a 'protest vote' for a > small party candidate while still having your vote count towards the > major candidate that you dislike least. It also stops the possibility of a candidate being a spoiler. The concept is simply illogical under a proportional voting scheme. If the US had proportional voting Bush presumably not have been elected due to proportionally more Nader voters choosing Gore as their 2nd preference. However, under a proportional voting scheme the overall landscape of candidates would change. So Gore/Bush might not even be serious candidates. I suspect both major parties would have to undergo major overhauls. best, patrick From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Aug 16 13:45:13 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:45:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> > >> Kerry's war record is certainly more heroic than Bush's. >> The argument at altitude - How does one emerge from such a violent conflict with three purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star, ten fingers, ten toes, both eyes, etc? While possible, certainly, it just doesn't seem statistically sound. And the policy at the time was 3 purple heart = trip home, wasn't it? I am Bret Kulakovich and I approved this message. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 16 14:06:15 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:06:15 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> <7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <007501c4839a$31b675a0$852c2dcb@homepc> Bret Kulakovich wrote: > >> Kerry's war record is certainly more heroic than Bush's. > >> > > The argument at altitude - How does one emerge from such a violent > conflict with three purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star, ten > fingers, ten toes, both eyes, etc? While possible, certainly, it just > doesn't seem statistically sound. > > And the policy at the time was 3 purple heart = trip home, wasn't it? > > > > I am Bret Kulakovich and I approved this message. You haven't put an argument, you've put a question. I don't know anything about Kerry's war record but you said "one", so here's an answer. 1) Purple heart (first injury). 2) Bronze star 3) Purple heart (second injury) 4) Silver star 5) Purple heart (third injury and trip home). That seems to answer your hypothetical question in the terms you put it. Perhaps you wanted to imply or state something else? Brett Paatsch From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 14:50:51 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:50:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped Message-ID: I've found that management prefers the code grinders rather than mad genius because they lack vision. Not the "Vision" that biz books speak of, but just that management doesn't really know what a company or product is supposed to do, so they focus on what they can control: personnel, hours, code output, level of documentation, etc. I reflect back on projects I've worked on: successful and unsuccessful and it seems like vision is the most important piece. I've been on 6 month projects with 4 people and no management. We had no documentation, no project plan, and we generated a full product that made millions its first year. Then I saw that same project add 40 people, multiple levels of management, project managers, product managers, qa, qt, etc etc and it took forever to get a new module out. The key difference was that in the beginning the four of us had a vision of what we were creating and worked toward the common goal. Later, no one really knew what they had to do and were just sort of "going through the motions". My preferred method of development is a very small, talented team with no management at first. There should be at least 1-2 "businessy" progs who can speak with investors and other business units to convey the message, but still able to generate clean code. Then the other 1-3 should just be hard core developers who can all understand (in theory) what the other developers are working on so they know what to code next. The downside is that the project/team/company is a high risk for anyone to leave or die, but the upside is that there is no useless dead weight that drags against the finished software. Of course, it's virtually impossible to find a small team of mad genius coders with a unified vision so I'm still waiting :/ BAL >From: Emlyn >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:26:53 +0930 > >On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 16:13:34 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes > wrote: > > --- Emlyn wrote: > > > One is a concept of web-based identity management > > > for people out in > > > the world, to handle all the myriad email addresses, > > > web site logins, > > > files, calendars & schedules, contact lists, etc, > > > etc, etc that we all > > > accumulate but that get completely out of hand > > > (because there's just > > > so much heterogenous crap to remember, like > > > usernames/password, or > > > urls, or whatever). > > > > Been done. Google doesn't just have search results > > for this, it has a bunch of ads from providers. The > > main flaw: unless you own the servers, someone else > > owns the machines your identity resides on. How much > > can you trust them? (Granted, there's some of that > > even now. This is a lot more.) > >I had a private email to me pointing me to one of these. I must check >them out, see how closely they match what I'm imagining. If they're >good, I might try using one, and I'll let people know how it turns >out. > > > > > > I'll expound shortly on a half baked software > > > development methodology > > > that I've got brewing in my head, tentatively tagged > > > "disposable > > > code". The axioms are "assume you start with a few > > > spectacular coders, > > > genius hackers, who can kind of work together, are > > > individually > > > irreplaceable, and most of whom don't like working > > > with each other. > > > What can you do?". It's a reaction to the regular > > > methodologies > > > (standard big system & agile) which assume that you > > > want to work with > > > endless fields of stupified code grinders, and that > > > the brilliant > > > cowboys in the corner are a liability... > > > > The brilliant cowboys, like anyone, could get sick or > > quit - especially if you (the business manager who > > can't see anything but $) try to reduce their high > > pay so you can pocket more profits. Cheap code > > grinders are widely available, and you still have the > > code even if its makers quit. > >I'm well aware of the problems with using excellent people with unique >skills/talents (rather than cookie-cutout grinders), but I think those >problems can be ameliorated using the right approach. Mostly it's all >variations on the theme of modularity. > >People have been slagging off the loner coders for a long time now, >you know, those mad geeks who can't communicate but can churn out >magic code that no one else can, and no one can understand. I think, >given that most of our systems are built on a lot of this crazy magic >code built by these guys (imo), it might be better to not throw out >the baby with the bath water, and instead find a way to work with >them. > >btw, I don't think the grind method is necessarily wrong, I just think >there are valid alternatives. > > > > > In reality, high-quality businesses require truly > > trusted employees. But try telling the paranoid > > execs who have fought off all manner of cold-blooded > > challengers to their business. > > > >Yup. > > > As to this question itself, the answer is pretty > > standard, if not often applied within a single > > business unit: divide the application into each > > person's responsibilities, and make a solid API. If > > someone needs a new API, they can negotiate for adding > > it; the executive managing the project is responsible > > for maintaining the API document itself, as part of > > the project management documents (like the task > > breakdown and schedule). Otherwise, each programmer > > is responsible for making sure their bit meets the API > > perfectly (along with other, part-specific > > responsibilities: databases don't lose data, UIs are > > usable, and so forth). > >That's the kind of thing I'm thinking of, but I've got a mad idea >about self documenting APIs (think web services, but promoted to the >level of abstraction of a java space), and distributed systems >composed almost solely of loosely coupled small pieces, so that the >overall central control of the api is less necessary, and so >individual pieces can be replaced almost at whim. There's more to it >than this... I must sit down and blog this thing. > >-- >Emlyn > >http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 14:58:37 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 10:58:37 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [wasRe:Fahrenheit911-objectivereview?] Message-ID: I don't know why it's shocking to realize that the US isn't some massive force for good in the world. The US has a main concern: maintaining and increasing its power (re: hegemony). The US bailed out of Liberia when the USSR fell apart because Liberia ceased to be important. That's the same reason why dictators with billions are more likely to get liberated than penniless dictators. Seems pretty straightforward to me. There's no mandate that USians are compassionate folks who want to help the world. In fact, I've seen some polls that basically given the choice between helping the world or helping local USians, local charity wins out. Spider Man's Uncle Ben said "With great power comes great responsibility." Until America accepts this and begins to act on it, then there will be terrible things happening in the world that will not be changed by the US. BAL >From: "Kevin Freels" >Reply-To: ExI chat list >To: "ExI chat list" >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] electing ideas >[wasRe:Fahrenheit911-objectivereview?] >Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2004 20:36:19 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >X-Originating-IP: [67.38.179.115] >X-Originating-Email: [megaquark at hotmail.com] >X-Sender: megaquark at hotmail.com >Received: from mc2-f13.hotmail.com ([65.54.190.20]) by mc2-s1.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:27:49 -0700 >Received: from tick.javien.com ([209.115.169.3]) by mc2-f13.hotmail.com >with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6824); Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:27:48 -0700 >Received: from tick.javien.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1])by >tick.javien.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i7G1II016526;Sun, 15 Aug 2004 >19:18:18 -0600 >Received: from hotmail.com (bay9-dav29.bay9.hotmail.com [64.4.46.86])by >tick.javien.com (8.11.6/8.11.2) with ESMTP id i7G1IF016517for >; Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:18:15 -0600 >Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft >SMTPSVC;Sun, 15 Aug 2004 18:18:14 -0700 >Received: from 67.38.179.115 by bay9-dav29.bay9.hotmail.com with DAV;Mon, >16 Aug 2004 01:18:14 +0000 >X-Message-Info: U2wzkPk8/jZ27yo+I0QrGhYRMefS/hizIsHsJLIJLYo= >References: ><002801c4830c$4d26ef60$1e47bacc at preferrei3lj79> >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 >X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 >Message-ID: >X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Aug 2004 01:18:14.0195 >(UTC)FILETIME=[E7165030:01C4832E] >X-BeenThere: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 >Precedence: list >List-Id: ExI chat list >List-Unsubscribe: >, >List-Archive: >List-Post: >List-Help: >List-Subscribe: >, >Errors-To: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >Return-Path: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > >Let's not forget our FAILURE to intervene in Liberia last year when both >parties were looking forward to our presence. The entire issue was created >by the way we just packed up and left Liberia after the Soviet Union >crumbled. Now they are looking to stabilize and are looking for $14million >to get their electric back on in Monrovia and no one seems to care... >Liberia just isn;t big enough news to justify messing with, so we ignore >it. > >I'm willing to go out on a limb here though. I think the terrible foreign >policy is directly caused by the general public's lack of knowledge about >the world. The government only reacts to things they think will get them >re-elected and the voters only care about the things that the news media >tell them to care about. If the people had a clue and gave a shit, I think >our entire foreign policy would change and we wouldn;t have so many people >that hate us. > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Pat Fallon" >To: ; "ExI chat list" >Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2004 4:10 PM >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was >Re:Fahrenheit911-objectivereview?] > > > > > We are facing a group of Muslim men ages 18-25 that have been > > > taught to hate America since they were born. > > > > > > IMHO, our interventionist foreign policy hasn't helped any... > > > > Take Iran, for instance... > > The CIA played a large role in overthrowing the Prime Minister of Iran > > and replaced him with the Shah whose dictatorship and secret police > > lasted almost 20 years until he was driven from office... > > > > when the revolution came, they didn't storm the Zwiss Embasy, > > they stormed the American Embassy because they hated us... > > the American CIA had replaced their Prime Minister with a dictator... > > > > we create, prop up, discard, and play tyrants off of one another... > > eventually that shit will catch up to you as it did in Iran... > > > > our interventionist foreign policy breeds hatred, > > it destroys our freedoms here in the US... > > it will bleed us dry... > > > > >The issue truly rests in that if we tuck tail and run out of Iraq > > >that we lose far more than the men we have lost already. > > > > sounds a little deja-viet-namish.... > > the sooner we admit a mistake and withdraw, the better... > > > > > Our country will be a target for anyone that needs their > > > agenda passed to just bomb a church or building and we > > > will give them what they want to not make anyone mad. > > > > our troops will certainly continue to be a target if we keep them in >Iraq... > > > > > Appeasement never works. > > > > Refraining from disasterous foreign interventionism is not >"appeasement." > > > > Self defense, YES... > > installing dictators, proping up kings and princes to secure oil >franchises, > > NO. > > taxing us to give trillions to foreign countries...no > > [privatize foreign aid, stop forcing Americans to contribute] > > > > Pat Fallon > > pfallon at ptd.net > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 15:02:08 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 11:02:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is it in theinterests of US citizens? Message-ID: Most laws are established by an authority. The problem with international law is that there is no one willing to threaten enforcement. International law reminds me of some of the "futuristic anarchy" discussions I've seen because it involves willing participation by without the threat of an authority forcing adherence to the law. I don't see the US signing up for any international law program because it doesn't benefit. If you take a look at stuff like WTO and NAFTA then that's more likely the only international law that will hold any power. BAL >From: "Brett Paatsch" >To: "ExI chat list" >Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is it in >theinterests of US citizens? >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 12:23:33 +1000 > >Good to see you posting again John. > >Do you think that international law exists? I do although I think it is >farcical at present because not enough people in the US (the world's most >powerful nation state) see that it is in their personal selfish interest. >If I recall you used to argue that the only laws were scientific ones. >Which made me wonder about you views on contract law. > >If you do, do you think the development of perhaps some minimal level of >international law is in your personal interest? > >Brett > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 15:25:34 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040816152534.61297.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > Of course, it's virtually impossible to find a small > team of mad genius > coders with a unified vision so I'm still waiting :/ Depends on the vision. Out of curiosity, what's yours? From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 15:27:39 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:27:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04081522343ca38a4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040816152739.91407.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 21:46:51 -0700 (PDT), Adrian > Tymes > wrote: > > Amusing point: just last week, I completed some > > contract programming for a startup (so we're not > > talking billions of dollars), and one of the test > > conditions for this program was making sure it > could > > work with multi-yottabyte disk allocations. > > > > The details of what it was doing with that much > space > > are confidential, unfortunately. > > My guess... you were putting together some trivial > app for Defense. > You submitted it on a floppy, but the yottas were > for the required > documentation... Nope. Private firm (confidentiality enforced by contract, not by Classified/Secret/Top Secret law), and the yottas really were for the app itself - sans documentation - to manage. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 15:43:02 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:43:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040816154302.27661.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On Sun, 15 Aug 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >Amusing point: just last week, I completed some > >contract programming for a startup (so we're not > >talking billions of dollars), and one of the test > >conditions for this program was making sure it > could > >work with multi-yottabyte disk allocations. > > Yottabytes? I was told that the dot-com era was over > :-) Seriously, a > yottabyte is 10^15 GB (see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix for > these funny prefixes). I'm pretty sure it's more > than the total harddisk > capacity of the entire planet. Sure this company is > *not* just interested > in the next quarterly financial statement, but it's > in for the long run. Let's just say this system was built to last. 8) (And, yes, I did have to use simulations for some of the testing, since we didn't actually have a multi-YB disk to work with. My client and I are confident in the simulations' accuracy.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 16 15:51:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:51:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush In-Reply-To: <7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <20040816155157.7307.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > > >> Kerry's war record is certainly more heroic than Bush's. > >> > > The argument at altitude - How does one emerge from such a violent > conflict with three purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star, > ten > fingers, ten toes, both eyes, etc? While possible, certainly, it > just > doesn't seem statistically sound. > > And the policy at the time was 3 purple heart = trip home, wasn't it? Well, there's always plastic surgery, but not any record of him doing so. The story so far as vets like myself are concerned is that his CO told him to volunteer for the trip home so as to cease putting his men at excessive risk. Now, you could say Kerry was seeking combat and glory intentionally for his political future, which is actually looked down upon in military circles. > > I am Bret Kulakovich and I approved this message. I don't approve of anything Mike Lorrey does or says... - alter ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 16 16:35:57 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 02:35:57 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is it intheinterests of US citizens? References: Message-ID: <02d401c483af$1ba01d10$852c2dcb@homepc> Brian Lee wrote: > .. The problem with international law is that there is no one willing > to threaten enforcement. I can't agree with you on that Brian. (I'm talking from memory rather than giving you specifics so reserve the right to tidy my language if this argument gets interesting), in the case of the first gulf war on George H W Bush's watch, the UN Security Council authorised the use of force to eject Saddam from Kuwait. International law in this case the UN Charter which is sort of a like the constitution for internation law, not only threatened enforcement, it delivered enforcement. Speaking loosely again I'm a humanist rationalist atheist - I don't normally talk in terms like righteous and just war but that one was. And George H. W Bush got criticised for not exceeding the authority of the existing UN resolution but in my opinion that restraint was to his credit as a statesman. I think the real problem with international law is that in a world with only one remaining military super power the temptation to bulldust and spin gets very high and the citizens of most of the developed western nations which have an understanding of their own laws and constitutions (sometimes) don't really have much of an understanding of how the UN security council works. This is understandable but I think it is a big part of the problem. If the US citizens had had a better understanding of the UN Charter I think that George W Bush would have more domestic pressure and more good advice and he may have found a better solution to the new post september 11 problem of rouge countries having weapons of mass destruction. He may have IF he was operating in good faith which I am less confident of now than I was at the time of Resolution 1441. > I don't see the US signing up for any international law program > because it doesn't benefit. If you take a look at stuff like WTO > and NAFTA then that's more likely the only international law > that will hold any power. The US was a founder of the UN. It not only signed the UN charter but it holds (from memory) all the original signatures. The UN Charter is the document into which (I think from memory) almost all other international laws bolt in. The power behind the UN Security Council is the power of the 5 victorious countries in WW11 that make up the permanent members. The US, the UK, Russia, China, France. There are 10 other non permanent security council members that are elected from time to time. Because the UN Charter is mostly aimed at maintaining international peace and security the security councils powers are limited. Any one of the permanent 5 can veto and action that the others might want to take thereby making a resolution unreachable and no lawful action taken. If you consider the cold war and that China and Russia were often on different sides of political issues to the US, the UK and France then it is not so surprising that these 5 often could not come to agree that certain actions should be resolved to be taken - often it was one of these five that was causing the problem in the first place. To understand the UN charter its necessary to understand that none of the permanent 5 could have a UN Resolution passed to enforce international law upon them because they'd veto it. Most lay-folk don't get that. The whole subject area seems to esoteric or boring to them. Its not where they live. Thats unfortunate because international law, its development and existence is the best hope for the future of just about all of them. Without it I think the free market may produce an Orwellian future. I don't think transhumanist causes have a hope without international law. (I should be honest here and say I don't think a lot of transhumanist causes have much prospect anyway). Conflicts will distract too much of the attention. Terror (that which is real and that which is contrived by domestic politicians for their political advantage) will not give hope a chance. Regards, Brett Paatsch From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 17:03:37 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:03:37 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped Message-ID: Of course, the vision must be of something sound. Right now, I just have the procedural/management/organization vision, I'm lacking the idea for the successful software and/or business. That's the tough part :/ Right now, it's tread water doing traditional software architecture in a large corp (think layers of RUP and "gates" and documentation, etc) until I have something that I can start on my own (or with another core group). BAL >From: Adrian Tymes >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:25:34 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > Of course, it's virtually impossible to find a small > > team of mad genius > > coders with a unified vision so I'm still waiting :/ > >Depends on the vision. Out of curiosity, what's >yours? >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 17:11:13 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:11:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is itintheinterests of US citizens? Message-ID: While at the time of founding, the 5 permanent members of the UN security council represented the major military powers of the war, now only the US is a major military superpower. As such, it's really the only country that really matters when it comes to international law (in that the US will invade someone if they think they are "evil" enough). The UN Security council has no power in and of itself because if it passed a resolution banning something, there is no one to enforce the resolution. This doesn't even take into account what happens when the council disagrees (like what happened in Iraq). So there is really no "international law", just some suggestions. In order for international law to exist, countries must defer to some authority (and I don't see the US doing this any time soon). As far as power, the UN is really just a forum for discussion, etc. It's most effective at fund raising and humanitarian efforts. I think that transhumans will be better off gathering in specific sympathetic countries, or forming their own (a la Greg Egan's "Distress") rather than hoping that major powers will give up their hopes for hegemony (don't see the US or China or Brazil bowing to the UN any time soon). Plus, a lot of transhumanist issues can be resolved "off the radar" or within current rulesets and can be moved from country to country should laws become unfavorable. BAL >From: "Brett Paatsch" >To: "ExI chat list" >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is >itintheinterests of US citizens? >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 02:35:57 +1000 > >Brian Lee wrote: > > > .. The problem with international law is that there is no one willing > > to threaten enforcement. > >I can't agree with you on that Brian. (I'm talking from memory rather >than giving you specifics so reserve the right to tidy my language if >this argument gets interesting), in the case of the first gulf war on >George H W Bush's watch, the UN Security Council authorised >the use of force to eject Saddam from Kuwait. International law >in this case the UN Charter which is sort of a like the constitution >for internation law, not only threatened enforcement, it delivered >enforcement. > >Speaking loosely again I'm a humanist rationalist atheist - I don't >normally talk in terms like righteous and just war but that one was. >And George H. W Bush got criticised for not exceeding the authority >of the existing UN resolution but in my opinion that restraint was to >his credit as a statesman. > >I think the real problem with international law is that in a world with >only one remaining military super power the temptation to bulldust and >spin gets very high and the citizens of most of the developed western >nations which have an understanding of their own laws and constitutions >(sometimes) don't really have much of an understanding of how the >UN security council works. This is understandable but I think it is >a big part of the problem. If the US citizens had had a better >understanding of the UN Charter I think that George W Bush would >have more domestic pressure and more good advice and he may have >found a better solution to the new post september 11 problem of rouge >countries having weapons of mass destruction. He may have IF he >was operating in good faith which I am less confident of now than >I was at the time of Resolution 1441. > > > I don't see the US signing up for any international law program > > because it doesn't benefit. If you take a look at stuff like WTO > > and NAFTA then that's more likely the only international law > > that will hold any power. > >The US was a founder of the UN. It not only signed the UN charter >but it holds (from memory) all the original signatures. The UN Charter >is the document into which (I think from memory) almost all other >international laws bolt in. > >The power behind the UN Security Council is the power of the 5 >victorious countries in WW11 that make up the permanent members. >The US, the UK, Russia, China, France. There are 10 other >non permanent security council members that are elected from >time to time. > >Because the UN Charter is mostly aimed at maintaining international >peace and security the security councils powers are limited. Any >one of the permanent 5 can veto and action that the others might >want to take thereby making a resolution unreachable and no lawful >action taken. If you consider the cold war and that China and Russia >were often on different sides of political issues to the US, the UK >and France then it is not so surprising that these 5 often could not >come to agree that certain actions should be resolved to be taken >- often it was one of these five that was causing the problem in the >first place. > >To understand the UN charter its necessary to understand that >none of the permanent 5 could have a UN Resolution passed to >enforce international law upon them because they'd veto it. > >Most lay-folk don't get that. The whole subject area seems to >esoteric or boring to them. Its not where they live. Thats unfortunate >because international law, its development and existence is the >best hope for the future of just about all of them. Without it I >think the free market may produce an Orwellian future. > >I don't think transhumanist causes have a hope without international >law. (I should be honest here and say I don't think a lot of transhumanist >causes have much prospect anyway). Conflicts will distract too much >of the attention. Terror (that which is real and that which is contrived >by domestic politicians for their political advantage) will not give hope >a chance. > >Regards, >Brett Paatsch > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Aug 16 18:14:08 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 14:14:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <007501c4839a$31b675a0$852c2dcb@homepc> References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> <7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <007501c4839a$31b675a0$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <10F50CBF-EFB0-11D8-B246-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Since yesterday there has been back-and-forth on Slashdot.org about the Singularity. Some nice points are made, but from a Sociological standpoint it an interesting slice of humanity to observe the reaction of. Just thought ppl might want to catch it. Slow news day, as they say. http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/15/ 1642243&tid=214&tid=192&tid=14&tid=6 ]3 From dwish at indco.net Mon Aug 16 18:18:31 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:18:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush In-Reply-To: <20040816155157.7307.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200408161728.i7GHSbS9012624@br549.indconet.com> Here is what Bill O'Reilly said about the matter which is a pretty good point I guess: Wrong to attack Kerry war record By Bill O'Reilly The partisans are running wild over this Swift boat business, talk radio is crazy with it, and the smell of blood is in the air. John Kerry has made a major deal of his Vietnam War record, and now his opponents have opened fire on the senator's experiences. It's all tawdry and distasteful, of course, but let's examine things unemotionally. First off, I believe Jim Rassmann when he says that Kerry saved his life by pulling him out of a Vietnam river while under fire. Rassmann is a former Green Beret, a former police officer and a longtime registered Republican until earlier this year. If he says John Kerry is a hero, nobody should doubt it. Rassmann has earned the right to be trusted, and insulting his testimony is way out of line. But I also believe Steve Gardner, a former Navy gunner who was also present on one of Kerry's Swift boats. He says the senator wrote up a false report, neglecting to inform the Navy that Gardner had accidentally shot a Vietnamese child during a firefight. This is a tough one. Gardner is implicating himself and has no reason to do so. But perhaps Kerry was looking out for him by not reporting the incident. Only Kerry knows. It is very possible to perform heroically on some occasions and do less than admirable things on others. All human beings are flawed, and we are capable of both valor and deceit. That's what I think happened here. John Kerry was brave but he was also calculating. His heroism impressed most of his Swift boat mates, but his civilian anti-war activities and perceived grandstanding also alienated many other Vietnam vets. And so the battle lines are drawn. What should we on the sidelines make of all this? Well, it's a judgment call. It is absolutely wrong for Americans to condemn Kerry's war record because he demonstrated provable valor. However, those who distrust him do deserve to be heard, although facts, not emotion, should be demanded. I think the Swift boat political advertisement calling Kerry a charlatan is in poor taste, and if this kind of thing continues, it might well backfire on the Kerry haters. Most Americans are fair-minded, and bitter personal attacks do not go down well with folks who are not driven by partisanship. Remember, Gen. Wesley Clark was knocked out of the presidential sweepstakes when he would not disown Michael Moore's insane remark that President Bush was a "deserter." Bush received an honorable discharge from the National Guard. Adm. Elmo Zumwalt pinned a medal on John Kerry's chest. The record is the record unless rock-solid proof refutes it. The lesson here is that blind partisanship is not an attribute. No person or candidate is all good or all bad. In America today, with both sides peddling lies and defamation and spin, it is alarmingly difficult just to get simple facts on which to base a responsible vote. Somewhere Jack Webb is weeping. Originally published on August 16, 2004 Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI Pres. WTA Arkansas ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 10:52 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Kerry is -still- a better choice than Bush --- Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > > >> Kerry's war record is certainly more heroic than Bush's. > >> > > The argument at altitude - How does one emerge from such a violent > conflict with three purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star, > ten > fingers, ten toes, both eyes, etc? While possible, certainly, it > just > doesn't seem statistically sound. > > And the policy at the time was 3 purple heart = trip home, wasn't it? Well, there's always plastic surgery, but not any record of him doing so. The story so far as vets like myself are concerned is that his CO told him to volunteer for the trip home so as to cease putting his men at excessive risk. Now, you could say Kerry was seeking combat and glory intentionally for his political future, which is actually looked down upon in military circles. > > I am Bret Kulakovich and I approved this message. I don't approve of anything Mike Lorrey does or says... - alter ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 16 18:28:53 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:28:53 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and isitintheinterests of US citizens? References: Message-ID: <02f201c483be$e25a4c50$852c2dcb@homepc> > While at the time of founding, the 5 permanent members of > the UN security council represented the major military powers > of the war, now only the US is a major military superpower. Yes, for now. > As such, it's really the only country that really matters when it > comes to international law (in that the US will invade someone > if they think they are "evil" enough). Even in the US, the decision to invade vests in one person. The commander in chief. The president. George W Bush is the person responsible for the US invasion of Iraq. It was his personal call. There are a lot of international-law respecting folk within the US. International law has a professional competent following because it matters for trade as well as for peace and security. I think that it is largely because there are many decent law-abiding folk who do understand international law, even in its limited form, such as it is within the US that there has been such a backlash against Bush's decision to invade Iraq illegally. When the President and an administration puts aside international law which it has ratified that is every bit as real as if it put aside domestic law in terms of the unease it creates in the minds of citizens who get what has happened. An administration that sees international law as a mere detail to be dispensed with can, especially if the outrage is not great enough, also start to mess with laws at home. The US has had one civil war in its history - another is not out of the question. If the rule of law is pushed aside too much you will likely see domestic terrorism ala the Oklahoma bomber. US citizens are nothing if not armed and technologically capable given appropriate incentive. Hitler provides crude but obvious object lessons in how surprisingly easy it can be turn relatively modern societies inside out with the use of propaganda and fear. > The UN Security council has no power in and of itself because > if it passed a resolution banning something, there is no one to > enforce the resolution. Here I think we do need to drill down a bit to stay accurate. The UN General Assembly might vote to ban something like say human cloning but that would not be legal binding it would only be politically persuasive on member nations. China for instance could (if it wanted to politically and that would depend on economics) say that therapeutic or even reproductive cloning is a domestic matter and that the UN Charter has no authority in domestic laws (unless China signs onto a treaty and placed that treaties determination under the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice and so they'd say validly (lawfully) that the UN General Assemblies suggestion was noted but declined. If the 5 permanent security council members could agree on a resolution then that means that the US, the UK, France, China and Russia's heads of state have agreed. In that situation the heads of states of any of those players could provide armed forces under a UN flag. There is also a mechanism for them (if they agree) to require other countries to provide armed forces. (That this doesn't happen is because any one of the big 5 who didn't want it to could stop it by vetoing the resolution needed to make something happen that they didn't want to have to act on domestically because they couldn't sell it domestically. But make no mistake if the security council decided to word a resolution say "banning" Saddam Hussein from continuing to occupy Iraq (that's labouring the language but not excessively I don't think) then they could do - and did they just didn't use the word ban. > This doesn't even take into account what happens when the > council disagrees (like what happened in Iraq). Resolution 1441 was agreed by all 15. But (keeping this simple) it needed another resolution to authorise force that the US and the UK couldn't get from France, China and Russia. It was because the matter was in the hands of the security council (it was because the US placed it there) that the US had legally removed from itself the option of acting unilaterally against Iraq. That was when international law got broken. Never before (to my knowledge) had a security council resolution been broken after the security council became seized of the matter. That was the point at which Bush took the world into the shit and made the UN a farce. That was why the French and Russians and Chinese objected so much afterwards. The US (Bush) essentially thumbed their nose at the security council in a way that had never been done before after placing the matter in the hands of the security council. They wanted another resolution authorising force but were not able to get it on terms Bush would accept. > So there is really no "international law", just some suggestions. Its actually worse than that - there is international law - Bush would never deny that - international trade depends on it, its just that to use an analogy their is a corrupt judge (or two if you include Blair) on the five person panel that is the Supreme Court and there is not way for the other judges to remove them. So the other judges know that international law is conspicuous farce now and they don't trust Bush because they see him as corrupt and diplomatically reckless and unpredicable. They know Bush is a lawbreaker of the worst possible kind because he can't be held to account except by the US people who alone can remove him. So long as Bush is President of the US the heads of state of the other member countries know that international law is corrupt. They choose to wait out Bush (who can't go more than 4 more years anyway because the alternative dissolving the UN (which logically they should do) would leave them without the illusion of power they currently have. If this UN was wrapped up there would have to be another at some stage and France knows it would not likely get to be one of the big 5 again. Germany or Japan might displace it. Similarly China and Russia don't want to lose the ability to use the now corrupt UN as a tool of public relations propaganda. The UN is broke yes. The US broke it. It continues on only as a farce whilst Bush is president. Whilst Bush is president other countries may evy American military power but the model of the super power they are looking at is just the old might is right one. Their is nothing morally superior in the US over China whilst Bush is president. Structurally the US can heal itself more easily though because Bush can only stay president for another four years unless the US constitution changes. That won't happen - Bush is too dumb to be Hitler. > In order for international law to exist, countries must defer to some > authority (and I don't see the US doing this any time soon). > > As far as power, the UN is really just a forum for discussion, etc. It's > most effective at fund raising and humanitarian efforts. Everything the UN did was secondary to its chapter 1 Purposes and Principles which were to maintain international peace and security. The other stuff was merely icing on the cake so long as the security council's integrity of structure held. Its integrity of structure is gone. The rest is now logical bullshit quite frankly. Its like a house of cards waiting to fall over. If Bush is replaced perhaps the key "card" can be inserted into the logical house of cards before the whole house of topples of its logical inconsistencies, but there is no guarantee of that. > I think that transhumans will be better off gathering in specific > sympathetic countries, or forming their own (a la Greg Egan's > "Distress") rather than hoping that major powers will give up their > hopes for hegemony (don't see the US or China or Brazil bowing > to the UN any time soon). Major powers don't have a consciousness of course. They have heads of state, they have citizens but there is not such thing as a unitary single desire in such a thing as a nation state. Nation states (major powers) no more have desires than say evolution has a desires. I don't know about Egan's Distress but I suspect its science fiction. I'd be interested in hearing good ideas about finding creative space for new civilizations. I once posted on the principles of founding a virtual country myself. So far as I know no more practical model have ever been proposed - but I am biased. > Plus, a lot of transhumanist issues can be resolved "off the radar" > or within current rulesets and can be moved from country to country > should laws become unfavorable. We could be talking past each other here. I'm not sure what transhumanist issues you have in mind. ---- Brett Paatsch From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 16 18:37:50 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:37:50 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist and is itintheinterests of US citizens? References: <02f201c483be$e25a4c50$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <02fe01c483c0$224a2320$852c2dcb@homepc> Correction instead of Iraq below I should have said Kuwait. > But make no mistake if the security council decided to word a > resolution say "banning" Saddam Hussein from continuing to occupy > Iraq (that's labouring the language but not excessively I don't think) > then they could do - and did they just didn't use the word ban. Brett Paatsch From charlie at antipope.org Mon Aug 16 18:40:17 2004 From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 19:40:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <10F50CBF-EFB0-11D8-B246-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> <7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <007501c4839a$31b675a0$852c2dcb@homepc> <10F50CBF-EFB0-11D8-B246-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: On 16 Aug 2004, at 19:14, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > Since yesterday there has been back-and-forth on Slashdot.org about > the Singularity. > > Some nice points are made, but from a Sociological standpoint it an > interesting slice of humanity to observe the reaction of. As long as you bear in mind that slashdot's readership are Not Typical of the rest of humanity -- they're a self-selected bunch of geeks, and the ones who post are *vocal* geeks. -- Charlie From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 16 19:01:31 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 15:01:31 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist andisitintheinterests of US citizens? Message-ID: >From: "Brett Paatsch" >To: "ExI chat list" >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Does international law exist >andisitintheinterests of US citizens? >Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:28:53 +1000 > >Even in the US, the decision to invade vests in one person. The >commander in chief. The president. George W Bush is the person >responsible for the US invasion of Iraq. It was his personal call. I think US law allows the president 60-90 days to deploy troops without congressional approval, but it wasn't used in this case. I think both the Senate and House authorized troops in Iraq, so saying that it was a "personal" call by Bush is simplistic at the least. He wasn't acting as a rouge president and abusing his powers. The UN charter does not make resolutions binding, so all 15 members could vote and pass a resolution to invade or whatever and unless members then execute it, it is meaningless. Thus the problem with the UN. If you want real, international law (aside from trade agreements which are the only functioning international laws) then form a new authoratative power. Personally, I'm just waiting for the EU to expand all over the world. I don't think any former president was willing to accede US sovereignty to the UN nor will any near-term future president. Kerry is against the ICC as far as I know. For international law to grow, it needs to expand from WTO-like orgs where members must pass local legislation to enforce the princples of the treaties. As scary as it is, the recent DMCAish legislation in Australia is an example of functioning international law. So now the US and Australia have similar copyright laws that can be enforced and prosecuted in both countries. BAL From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Aug 16 20:57:06 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 16:57:06 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... In-Reply-To: References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> <7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <007501c4839a$31b675a0$852c2dcb@homepc> <10F50CBF-EFB0-11D8-B246-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: Yes of course: this is like having a (-this list -pop consensus +technically adept +sci fi reading) filter, versus a - + + - for say cnn.com, or a - + - - from say, Fox News. Something we may not hear from on the topic(s) often, but know they are savvy. On Aug 16, 2004, at 2:40 PM, Charlie Stross wrote: > > On 16 Aug 2004, at 19:14, Bret Kulakovich wrote: >> >> Since yesterday there has been back-and-forth on Slashdot.org about >> the Singularity. >> >> Some nice points are made, but from a Sociological standpoint it an >> interesting slice of humanity to observe the reaction of. > > As long as you bear in mind that slashdot's readership are Not Typical > of the rest of humanity -- they're a self-selected bunch of geeks, and > the ones who post are *vocal* geeks. > > > -- Charlie > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Aug 16 23:39:46 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:39:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] a review url'd Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040816183700.01d7f6a8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Not quite on topic, but hey. :) http://www.thealienonline.net/ao_030.asp?tid=2&scid=21&iid=2503 is a review by Dr. Adam Roberts, a newish and excellent British sf writer and critic, of my latest book, *x, y, z, t*, along with a thumbnail of the now-familiar beautiful cover art by extrope Anders Sandberg (who seems to have vanished, alas, from our midst). Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 00:02:15 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 09:32:15 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc04081617026dbcde46@mail.gmail.com> I think there are a million things you could build right now and that people would find useful, and some relatively large subset of these would be commercialisable. The 'net, for instance, is still a fabulous rambling mess of stuff where everything that is hard to do or hard to understand or hard to use for people can be seen as an opportunity. You can see my recent ideas in my blog, poorly expressed as they are (mostly I have to squeeze them out of my head into the blog so they quit bugging me and I can think about something else). btw, it is also my contention that most ideas for doing things can be safely blurted out in public fora / blogs. Any ideas worth pursuing take enough work that people wont normally steal them, in fact they think the idea is crap (I can't see that...) until it is made concrete. Ideas aren't something people want to grab, you usually have to ram them down people's throats. Emlyn On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:03:37 -0400, Brian Lee wrote: > Of course, the vision must be of something sound. Right now, I just have the > procedural/management/organization vision, I'm lacking the idea for the > successful software and/or business. That's the tough part :/ > > Right now, it's tread water doing traditional software architecture in a > large corp (think layers of RUP and "gates" and documentation, etc) until I > have something that I can start on my own (or with another core group). > > BAL > > >From: Adrian Tymes > >To: ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:25:34 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > Of course, it's virtually impossible to find a small > > > team of mad genius > > > coders with a unified vision so I'm still waiting :/ > > > >Depends on the vision. Out of curiosity, what's > >yours? > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 03:05:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:05:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped References: <710b78fc04081617026dbcde46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Whatever you do, if you have a good idea, follow up on it, or you will be kicking yourself in the arse the rest of your life. I designed a device in 1996 where a computer touch screen could be mounted to a headstone and a person could leave messages for loved ones (or hated ones). It was all on papaer,. but I never built it. I lacked the funds, and many of t he technologies needed such as MPEG video just were in their infancy. SO I just sat on it. Just last month, someone patented one. My family won;t let it go since I used to talk about it all the time. Now every time I show up at a family function, they give me a hard time about it. If you think you have something worth doing, and someone else isn;t doing it, you probably have something. Don't sit on it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emlyn" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped > I think there are a million things you could build right now and that > people would find useful, and some relatively large subset of these > would be commercialisable. The 'net, for instance, is still a fabulous > rambling mess of stuff where everything that is hard to do or hard to > understand or hard to use for people can be seen as an opportunity. > > You can see my recent ideas in my blog, poorly expressed as they are > (mostly I have to squeeze them out of my head into the blog so they > quit bugging me and I can think about something else). > > btw, it is also my contention that most ideas for doing things can be > safely blurted out in public fora / blogs. Any ideas worth pursuing > take enough work that people wont normally steal them, in fact they > think the idea is crap (I can't see that...) until it is made > concrete. Ideas aren't something people want to grab, you usually have > to ram them down people's throats. > > Emlyn > > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 13:03:37 -0400, Brian Lee wrote: > > Of course, the vision must be of something sound. Right now, I just have the > > procedural/management/organization vision, I'm lacking the idea for the > > successful software and/or business. That's the tough part :/ > > > > Right now, it's tread water doing traditional software architecture in a > > large corp (think layers of RUP and "gates" and documentation, etc) until I > > have something that I can start on my own (or with another core group). > > > > BAL > > > > >From: Adrian Tymes > > >To: ExI chat list > > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped > > >Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 08:25:34 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > > > > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > > Of course, it's virtually impossible to find a small > > > > team of mad genius > > > > coders with a unified vision so I'm still waiting :/ > > > > > >Depends on the vision. Out of curiosity, what's > > >yours? > > >_______________________________________________ > > >extropy-chat mailing list > > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Aug 17 03:48:16 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04081617026dbcde46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040817034816.17716.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > I think there are a million things you could build > right now and that > people would find useful, and some relatively large > subset of these > would be commercialisable. The 'net, for instance, > is still a fabulous > rambling mess of stuff where everything that is hard > to do or hard to > understand or hard to use for people can be seen as > an opportunity. More of an advantage, at least from my view, is the fact that if you can conceive of it and it's simple enough, someone else has probably done it - but now you can find that other person, or at least stories about why they failed if it's actually non-viable. (There are rare occasions when what you're doing truly is unique. And in those cases, you're less likely to face competition, at least until you can commercialize and recover investment - if you move fast enough.) > btw, it is also my contention that most ideas for > doing things can be > safely blurted out in public fora / blogs. Any ideas > worth pursuing > take enough work that people wont normally steal > them, in fact they > think the idea is crap (I can't see that...) until > it is made > concrete. Ideas aren't something people want to > grab, you usually have > to ram them down people's throats. And besides, for most ideas really worth doing, our own lives are enriched even if someone else rips them off and successfully implements them. For instance, say I suddenly realized a simple, safe, cheap, and reliable way to upload people that could be done with today's technology, and I bounced it off people, one of whom went ahead and did it without telling me while I was still bouncing it around. Net result: it becomes possible for people like me to upload. Yes, I don't collect the corresponding fortune...but I and those I care about could have immortality (or, at least, rid ourselves of most of the age-related causes of death) if we choose. I'd still win, right along with most of the human race. That said, you do have to look out for yourself. But making the world better can, sometimes, bring us far more material rewards than going after the material rewards themselves. Sometimes. From steve at multisell.com Tue Aug 17 03:51:33 2004 From: steve at multisell.com (Steve Nichols) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 04:51:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Truth-speaking MVT machines & Primal hYpnosis Message-ID: <001c01c4840d$8ed93f60$eac12ad9@stevo> A few thoughts on implementation of MVT-based conscious machines. By their nature, sentient machines must have self-volition, and would not be amenable to programming from external sources. But there needs to be some sort of purpose/ structure in the design for them to do anything useful at all, let alone to excel and out-perform humans & conventional nets and von Neumann AI machines. I think we need to use reconfigurable circuits, probably hybrid systems with connectionist glue, with a directive for "truth-telling." The MVT process would make the machines self-referential, copying the evolutionary process that occurred in organisms that lost the primal eye in order to be able to reset their clocks internally in a soft manner rather than hard/ environmentally governed (see my various papers on this). We (on posthuman at yahoogroups.com list) have strong background in neural computing as well as chip semantics, but welcome input from any in the trans/ post-human firmament who would like to assist with this ongoing project. I am pleased also to report some progress with the new Primal Hypnosis induction techniques ... The geo-political world seems full of uncertainty at present because of the influence of primitive supernaturalism and conflict between (those perpetuating) various delusional and inadequate legacy systems. I think we need Truth-speaking machines sooner rather than later. We have been in transitional limbo since the start of the Industrial Revolution .. far too long already .. let's help bring about the switch to posthuman TODAY and not interminably tomorrow . Steve (& Maita . just married!) http://www.multi.co.uk/identity.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 04:57:22 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:27:22 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <20040817034816.17716.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040817034816.17716.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040816215754b7d2a1@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > I think there are a million things you could build > > right now and that > > people would find useful, and some relatively large > > subset of these > > would be commercialisable. The 'net, for instance, > > is still a fabulous > > rambling mess of stuff where everything that is hard > > to do or hard to > > understand or hard to use for people can be seen as > > an opportunity. > > More of an advantage, at least from my view, is the > fact that if you can conceive of it and it's simple > enough, someone else has probably done it - but now > you can find that other person, or at least stories > about why they failed if it's actually non-viable. > (There are rare occasions when what you're doing truly > is unique. And in those cases, you're less likely to > face competition, at least until you can commercialize > and recover investment - if you move fast enough.) Yes yes yes! I totally agree with this. Most of my best ideas are really things I need myself. When it turns out they already exist, there's one less mighty task that I need to undertake. > > > btw, it is also my contention that most ideas for > > doing things can be > > safely blurted out in public fora / blogs. Any ideas > > worth pursuing > > take enough work that people wont normally steal > > them, in fact they > > think the idea is crap (I can't see that...) until > > it is made > > concrete. Ideas aren't something people want to > > grab, you usually have > > to ram them down people's throats. > > And besides, for most ideas really worth doing, our > own lives are enriched even if someone else rips them > off and successfully implements them. Yes! That's the other major reason that I blog my ideas, because it'd be really cool if someone would "steal" them (hey, they are freely given) & implement them. Pleeeese! > For instance, > say I suddenly realized a simple, safe, cheap, and > reliable way to upload people that could be done with > today's technology, and I bounced it off people, one > of whom went ahead and did it without telling me while > I was still bouncing it around. Net result: it > becomes possible for people like me to upload. Yes, I > don't collect the corresponding fortune...but I and > those I care about could have immortality (or, at > least, rid ourselves of most of the age-related causes > of death) if we choose. I'd still win, right along > with most of the human race. Right on. > > That said, you do have to look out for yourself. Even I don't blog *all* of my ideas... :-D > But > making the world better can, sometimes, bring us far > more material rewards than going after the material > rewards themselves. Sometimes. You have to do *something* yourself. But I find (no idea what other people's experience is) that I have vastly more ideas than I have the ability to implement. eg: if I have a couple of usable ideas per week, but each one takes at least a few months on average to implement. Some require vast teams & fortunes, or established networks. Some are just plain evil (eg: my idea of putting self-checkout machines in supermarkets that give out prizes occassionally (cash if possible, even if its just a "gift voucher" for the store), basically poker machines). By far the majority of those ideas are just pouring down the plug hole. Finding something to do myself is never a problem, it's the job of choosing between them that's difficult. And I can't afford most of my own time, which sucks. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Aug 17 05:47:38 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 22:47:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap Message-ID: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> New government data also shows that President Bush's tax cuts have shifted the overall tax burden to the middle class from the wealthiest Americans.: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/headlines/D84GNDMG1.html Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 17 06:28:41 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:28:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001e01c48423$70f28400$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Kevin Freels > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped > > Whatever you do, if you have a good idea, follow up on it... I > designed a device in 1996 where a computer touch screen could be mounted to a > headstone and a person could leave messages for loved ones (or hated ones)... Kevin do not despair, there are *plenty* of variations on that theme that are not patented. That particular idea is so obvious it isn't much value. Figure out a way that someone could set up a virtual presence on one's chat group after one perishes, something that emulates one's writing style, political position, sense of humor etc, then generates messages from that person from beyond. Imagine a poster on extropians who is suspected of leaning slightly to the right politically (it isn't hard to do). Suppose that person met with an untimely end (evolution forbid). Then whenever a left-leaning politician is elected, the script could generate bitter messages from the deceased. Or say things like "Im rolling over in my grave down here. Or rather I would be if I had one. Im rolling over in my dewar. Hey, how are you nanotech proles coming along? Do hurry, its cold in here..." That kinda stuff. It would be a hoot. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 17 06:53:50 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 16 Aug 2004 23:53:50 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Olga Bourlin > Tax Burden Gap > > > New government data also shows that President Bush's tax cuts > have shifted the overall tax burden to the middle class from the > wealthiest Americans.: > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/headlines/D84GNDMG1.html Olga Quote from the article about a family that is on hard times: So the family budget tightened. That meant fewer cable channels, more meals at home, postponed doctor appointments, missed vacations, delayed credit card payments, all to "keep the wolf away from the door," she said. Oh god no! Not fewer cable channels! Mercy, anything but that! I am trying to imagine explaining to my late grandparents that life is now so hard that I am forced to eat meals at home and can afford only 70 cable channels. If I postpone doctor appointments, their level of medical care was so poor that such a delay was a blessing. If I miss a vacation or two, they seldom took one. Delay credit card payments? They didn't even have credit cards, and no one is forcing me to get them today. Any wolf that showed up at their door would be in grave danger of meeting face to face with Mr. Twelve Gage. Lets get some perspective. Some will always be way richer than others, that isn't going away. But today our poor have hamburger and TVs. Modern poor people face far greater danger from obesity and alcoholism than from starvation and disease. That's progress, is it not? OK bad example. But let us measure our success or failure by comparing our lives to those of our ancestors. Better or worse? s From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Aug 17 07:25:27 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 00:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040816215754b7d2a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040817072527.40693.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > Yes! That's the other major reason that I blog my > ideas, because it'd > be really cool if someone would "steal" them (hey, > they are freely > given) & implement them. Pleeeese! Good example: I'm currently working on a theoretical way to tap zero-point energy. I emphasize "theoretical" because the academics who've reviewed it can't find any reason why it wouldn't work, but are reluctant to say it would since the result is close to perpetual motion. (It actually does have an energy source it's converting into motion, just one that no one's been able to tap before, and which appears to happen to be all around us. So it would technically not break the laws of thermodynamics, despite appearing to...if the theory proves correct, of course.) I've got the IP protections in place, but I've only got 'til March to provide a working example or release it to the public domain. If I can make it work, my course is obvious. If I can't...well, maybe someone else can follow my course and find what I missed. (Or find out why the theory doesn't work.) Until then, it's a science experiment that might or might not produce interesting results, depending on information it's intended to ferret out. It's been an interesting project, since one needs good understanding of quantum mechanics to know why it might work, and good understanding of nanolithography to understand how it can be manufactured. I've been working with the Stanford Nanofabrication Facility on the latter; unfortunately, the equipment I need has been offline for over a month now, and I suspect it won't get fixed in the next few days. (I might be willing to bounce a more detailed version of the theory off anyone who knows QM, if you're interested - but please *DON'T* ask unless/until you know all about the Casimir force and what produces it. Otherwise, you won't be able to give useful input, and you'll have to rely on my possibly mistaken impressions to understand the field being discussed. If anyone knows both QM and nanolithography...tell me, so I can convince myself I'm not the only one. ;) ) But the moral: even something like this, with obvious potential for riches (again, if it works)...if I had to choose between being ripped off or never seeing it implemented, my choice is clear. I had to keep reminding myself of that, to convince myself to seek academic review. If I hadn't, I never would have seen certain flaws in my initial idea that would, in fact, have stopped it from working even if the basic theory were correct. > You have to do *something* yourself. But I find (no > idea what other > people's experience is) that I have vastly more > ideas than I have the > ability to implement. *nods* Example: I've got investments in one of the start-up low-cost reusable rocket ventures most of us have heard of, and ideas for what I'd like to do once they succeed...but for the moment, I'm content to wait for that time, knowing there isn't much I could do right now to speed it up, while I do something else to pay the bills. From pharos at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 07:47:14 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:47:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] a review url'd In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040816183700.01d7f6a8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040816183700.01d7f6a8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:39:46 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > Not quite on topic, but hey. :) > > http://www.thealienonline.net/ao_030.asp?tid=2&scid=21&iid=2503 > > is a review by Dr. Adam Roberts, a newish and excellent British sf writer > and critic, of my latest book, *x, y, z, t*, along with a thumbnail of the > now-familiar beautiful cover art by extrope Anders Sandberg (who seems to > have vanished, alas, from our midst). > What do you mean 'Not quite on topic'? It is permissable to have a few posts that are not about Bush or Kerry, isn't it???? ;) BillK From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 08:02:18 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:32:18 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] a review url'd In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040816183700.01d7f6a8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04081701025647d1a3@mail.gmail.com> Good review there Damien, congratulations! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 08:47:14 +0100, BillK wrote: > On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 18:39:46 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Not quite on topic, but hey. :) > > > > http://www.thealienonline.net/ao_030.asp?tid=2&scid=21&iid=2503 > > > > is a review by Dr. Adam Roberts, a newish and excellent British sf writer > > and critic, of my latest book, *x, y, z, t*, along with a thumbnail of the > > now-familiar beautiful cover art by extrope Anders Sandberg (who seems to > > have vanished, alas, from our midst). > > > > What do you mean 'Not quite on topic'? > It is permissable to have a few posts that are not about Bush or > Kerry, isn't it???? ;) > > BillK > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Aug 17 09:35:50 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:05:50 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs (except the really big ones) Message-ID: <710b78fc04081702354ea3c1e3@mail.gmail.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/business/17auto.html?th Safety Gap Grows Wider Between S.U.V.'s and Cars DETROIT, Aug. 16 - The gap in safety between sport utility vehicles and passenger cars last year was the widest yet recorded, according to new federal traffic data. People driving or riding in a sport utility vehicle in 2003 were nearly 11 percent more likely to die in an accident than people in cars, the figures show. The government began keeping detailed statistics on the safety of vehicle categories in 1994. (etc... see the second page though that says large SUVs are safer than medium sized passenger cars or medium sized SUVs) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From gregburch at gregburch.net Tue Aug 17 11:30:31 2004 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:30:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs (except the reallybig ones) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04081702354ea3c1e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've been offline a lot lately, and will never truly catch up, so the more important threads from weeks gone by will have to do without my dubious commentary. But here's my take on SUVs (from a long time ago): http://www.gregburch.net/cars/suvs.html Greg Burch The Headless Horseman of the Apocalypse My Blog: http://gregburch.net/burchismo.html > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Emlyn > Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:36 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs (except the > reallybig ones) > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/business/17auto.html?th > > Safety Gap Grows Wider Between S.U.V.'s and Cars > > DETROIT, Aug. 16 - The gap in safety between sport utility vehicles > and passenger cars last year was the widest yet recorded, according to > new federal traffic data. > > People driving or riding in a sport utility vehicle in 2003 were > nearly 11 percent more likely to die in an accident than people in > cars, the figures show. The government began keeping detailed > statistics on the safety of vehicle categories in 1994. > > (etc... see the second page though that says large SUVs are safer than > medium sized passenger cars or medium sized SUVs) > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 13:30:39 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 06:30:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > New government data also shows that President Bush's tax cuts have > shifted > the overall tax burden to the middle class from the wealthiest > Americans.: > > http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/headlines/D84GNDMG1.html Of course, the expansion of the earned income tax credit to help the bottom 50% pay no income taxes at all had nothing to do with the increased tax burden for the middle class... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 16:42:03 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:42:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > New government data also shows that President Bush's tax cuts have > > shifted > > the overall tax burden to the middle class from the wealthiest > > Americans.: It's always been my impression that the wealthiest Americans represent such a small portion of the nation that the middle class has always carried the burden. EVen with a flat tax, the wealthiest Americans would be paying more in dollars than the average Joe. Why is it that people think they should also pay a higher percentage even though it has minimal impact on the overall revenues? I am so glad I'm not wealthy because I would be perpetually pissed about everyone always expecting me to pay an ever increasing "fair share". From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Aug 17 17:58:16 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 12:58:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040817125552.01d2eec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:42 AM 8/17/2004 -0500, Kevin wrote: >It's always been my impression that the wealthiest Americans represent such >a small portion of the nation that the middle class has always carried the >burden. Look at some data. http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewswolff.html < In the United States, the richest 1 percent of households owns 38 percent of all wealth. > Whether this is a good or bad thing is another matter. Damien Broderick From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Aug 17 19:05:18 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:05:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs (except thereallybig ones) Message-ID: <102540-22004821719518582@M2W103.mail2web.com> From: Greg Burch >I've been offline a lot lately, and will never truly catch up, so the more >important threads from weeks gone by will have to do without my dubious >commentary. But here's my take on SUVs (from a long time ago): http://www.gregburch.net/cars/suvs.html Very funny, Greg! Thumbs down on SUVs, especially when there is one person in the darn thing, or one person and a child somewhere in the back and a sign that says, "Child on Board." Or there is no one on board and it is parked in a space for compact cars. I'll have to hug a tree on this one and also the art of aesthetics - those bit things just look ridiculous! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From hibbert at mydruthers.com Tue Aug 17 20:36:49 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 13:36:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040817125552.01d2eec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040817125552.01d2eec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41226C61.5090906@mydruthers.com> Damien forwarded some statistics: > In 1998, they owned 59 percent of all wealth. Or to put it another > way, the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent > of the population, collectively. > > The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, > it owned 83 percent of all wealth. But notice that these are statistics for wealth, not income. In the US (and I have to assume until corrected, in Australia as well) most taxes are based on income, not wealth. If you wanted to raise the income tax enough on the wealthy to counter their assets, you'd have to structure the taxes very carefully, or you'd snare people with lots of income but not much wealth, or people whose earnings merely resembled that of the wealthy. I assume this difficulty is part of the reason the wealthy don't bear more of the burden. Another part, obviously, is that the wealthy are willing to, and can afford to hire lawyers and lobbyists to make sure taxes don't hit them very hard. Chris -- C. J. Cherryh, "Invader", on why we visit very old buildings: "A sense of age, of profound truths. Respect for something hands made, that's stood through storms and wars and time. It persuades us that things we do may last and matter." Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Aug 17 21:09:49 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 16:09:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <41226C61.5090906@mydruthers.com> References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040817125552.01d2eec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41226C61.5090906@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040817160616.01c87e88@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:36 PM 8/17/2004 -0700, Chris wrote: >Damien forwarded some statistics: > >>The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, it owned >>83 percent of all wealth. > >But notice that these are statistics for wealth, not income. In the US >(and I have to assume until corrected, in Australia as well) most taxes >are based on income, not wealth. You need to read the full interview I url'd; e.g.: < MM: To what extent is inequality addressed through tax policy? Wolff: One reason we have such high levels of inequality, compared to other advanced industrial countries, is because of our tax and, I would add, our social expenditure system. We have much lower taxes than almost every Western European country. And we have a less progressive tax system than almost every Western European country. As a result, the rich in this country manage to retain a much higher share of their income than they do in other countries, and this enables them to accumulate a much higher amount of wealth than the rich in other countries. Certainly our tax system has helped to stimulate the rise of inequality in this country. > However: Damien Broderick From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 17 21:12:03 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] question re solar sails In-Reply-To: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040817211203.48490.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> Extropes, Perhaps you've heard of the recent Japanese launch/deployment of two solar sails. Japan unfurls solar sail in space http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3555048.stm The piece ends with the following sentence: "Both deployments were successful and the rocket splashed into the sea at about six minutes 40 seconds after lift-off." This leaves me with the impression that the rocket did not reach orbital velocity. So I'm wondering, did the solar sails also fall back to earth, and if not, why not? What chall folks think? Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Aug 17 21:24:25 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 14:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] question re solar sails In-Reply-To: <20040817211203.48490.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040817212425.38771.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Davis wrote: > "Both deployments were successful and the rocket > splashed into the sea at about six minutes 40 > seconds > after lift-off." > > This leaves me with the impression that the rocket > did > not reach orbital velocity. So I'm wondering, did > the > solar sails also fall back to earth, and if not, why > not? The deployments were successful. That means the mechanism to put the sails out there succeeded. You might think that's an insanely small step, but it one has to make sure one can put these things out there with them snagging or breaking before one can actually test to see if the sails work, no? The sails themselves were almost inconsequential to the test. One could almost have used cloth or the like, save for concerns that cloth might not act the same way as whatever they're using as sail material, which would have made this test pointless. From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Aug 17 21:43:36 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 17:43:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <102540-22004821719518582@M2W103.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817163640.04d3f008@unreasonable.com> [ Natasha and Greg opined on SUVs ] As posters in the last month's thread on driver safety showed, published analysis or discussion of the relative risks and benefits of a vehicle choice can rarely withstand rigorous review. I recently bought a Toyota 4Runner, a medium-sized SUV. I have been fond of the vehicle category since the 1970's, long before the current boom. I often transport objects that would not fit in a station wagon. I often drive on surfaces where 4WD is useful (or, at least, more pleasant). In just the past few days, I've encountered grooved roads, steep hills, dirt roads, major potholes, mud, and heavy rain. And this is August. In February, here in New England, driving a different class of vehicle in other years has meant leaving my vehicle a mile from home because the road was impassible, sliding uncontrollably down an icy hill into traffic, skidding into a snowbank, or simply having to go the long way around because I knew my car wouldn't make it up a hill. More generally for extropians, a suitably chosen and outfitted SUV, *with* the experience to use it effectively, can be a life-saver in a variety of natural or man-made circumstances, either in getting away from a hazard or to a medical facility. By the way, if you are concerned about fuel economy, SUV hybrids are now becoming available, such as the 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid. -- David Lubkin. From gingell at gnat.com Tue Aug 17 23:04:28 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 19:04:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com> Spike writes: > Lets get some perspective. Some will always be way richer than > others, that isn't going away. But today our poor have hamburger > and TVs. Modern poor people face far greater danger from obesity > and alcoholism than from starvation and disease. That's progress, > is it not? OK bad example. But let us measure our success or > failure by comparing our lives to those of our ancestors. Better or > worse? This isn't the point though - the article is making an argument that we're see a widening gap between rich and poor and a shrinking middle class. Pointing out that most people most places are better off in material terms than they were a couple of generations ago is beside the point. I guess there might be a case that, in the long run, countries with very lopsided income and wealth distributions eventually do better for everyone than countries with a big middle class. I can't think of an obvious historical argument though. Matt From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 01:43:53 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:13:53 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hidden Cargo Pants Message-ID: <710b78fc04081718438702b3b@mail.gmail.com> Another major innovation from Scott-E-Vest, you go tigers! Read about it here... http://virtualemlyn.blogspot.com/ -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From duggerj1 at charter.net Wed Aug 18 02:11:56 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 21:11:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program Message-ID: <3948sc$60bgto@mxip09a.cluster1.charter.net> Tuesday, 17 August 2004 And for nogistalgia's sake, we will now return to the Extropia-class-carrier-and-its-merry-crew thread. Great fun, I admit. But once again, at least two of the extropes with US Navy experience will watch from the pier as it goes to sea. > Aircraft carriers are already called miniature cities. > They're not nearly as spread out as the real thing, > but they are livable (by certain types of people, at > least) for several months at a time. And if one > substituted hydroponics (powered by solar cells on the > gasbags) in place of some of the military systems, > resupply wouldn't be as much of an issue. (It'd still > be needed from time to time...but then, what proper > city doesn't have mail service?) Would anyone find it surprising that Buckminster Fuller speculated on flying cities? You can find the web version of his book Synergetics through Google, if you've interest. -- Jay Dugger : 314-551-8414 http://www.vss.fsi.com/~dugger Jay Dugger : Til Eulenspiegel http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Aug 18 02:52:57 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:52:57 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] just test pls ignore Message-ID: <009101c484ce$779f6240$362c2dcb@homepc> had email delivery probs and seeing if this shows up via web -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duggerj1 at charter.net Wed Aug 18 03:14:45 2004 From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 22:14:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... Message-ID: <3948se$6b3803@mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > For disk drives, we see exactly the "problem" you mention. Drives have > quit doubling > in capacity, and instead are now dropping in price, specifically because > a nominal 1-drive > system has "enough" capacity. You should look at > http://www.pricewatch.com > occasionally to get a feel for this trend. Disk capacity improvement > have consistently > outpaced processors performance improvements for at least the last five > years. The current > "sweet spot" for cost/GB is at about 250GB for $.50/GB, at retail. Add > $500 for a cheap > computer to house four drives: you get 1TB for $1000. Well, not quite so cheap as that. Having just bought 1000 GB of disk space in the last three months, I confidently state it costs a little more than $1000. Dan's estimate might prove right for a stationary set-up. As portable computers turn into wearables, and as cell phones do the same, we'll see demand for ever-larger portable storage. In particular, I suspect as medicine improves medical monitoring will become biotelemetry. This might increase demand for very reliable, compact and high-density data storage. If black-boxes serve well in vehicles, could they serve as well in biological systems? People, children, valuable animals, crops and their symbiotes, all might need data storage like this. As it grows cheaper, more applications turn economical. > > The only way I know to use this much disk at home is to store DVDs. > Storing audio > CDs hardly counts: my entire CD collection fits on <<300GB with lossless > compression. You can see other ideas for this kind of storage space in Microsoft's MyLifeBits project. Video swallows disk space, and with wearable cameras one can very well have a personal Wayback Machine for one's own life. Today it is very easy to have a personal Wayback Machine for the Internet--just use wget as your default web browser. Unfortunately, the real problem with this volume of data storage is the user interface. Already a professional society of organizers exists for possessions. Any bets on how long before these branch out into organizing your digitized life, into ordering one's N-Bytes of data? I'll go even odds on 27 months, +/- 9 months. So how do you eventually handle this? Abandon the hierachical file system to mere googling? Hire a butler equal parts remembrance agent, OpenCyc, and ALICE to explain where you left what and why? Or do you build a memory palace in a gibsonian-style cyberspace to remind one's self of everything? > You can store about 5 audio CDs with lossless compression (flac) in one > GB, for a storage > cost of $.20/CD. Storage cost for a DVD would be about $4.00, which is a > small fraction Double these numbers for a back-up copy of valuable data. :) [snip] > Kevin Freels wrote: > [snip] >> What you >> are saying is that now, since we no longer have that need, the market for >> these improvements in processing speeds and storage is no longer >> there. (I >> have had 40GB for going on 3 years and still only use 9 of it.) >> You have got to be kidding. It's not more pron you need, just move more often. Packing a terabyte of disk space is so much easier than packing a terabyte worth of hard copy. One fits into a backpack complete with computer, and it's not the bookshelves. >> From: "Dan Clemmensen" >> >> >>> We joke about this, but the reality is different. >>> >>> At some point during the last ten years, most of us crossed a threshold. >>> Prior to the threshold, We did not have enough disk space or processing >>> power. We spent as much money on a computer as our comfort level Still don't have enough--ambition grows with access to tools. Digitize everything, and start learning about data mining, text analysis, and so on. [snip] -- Jay Dugger : 314-551-8414 http://www.vss.fsi.com/~dugger Jay Dugger : Til Eulenspiegel http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 03:40:42 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 20:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap Message-ID: <20040818034042.39344.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> manage to retain a much higher share of their income than they do in other countries, and this enables them to accumulate a much higher amount of wealth than the rich in other countries. you wronggly assume that the wealthy are even subject to the tax regieme. theyre not for the most part, at least those who hang onto it for generations. instead, they keep it in foreign trusts which invest here but pay no tax here because the foreign trust is a nonresident alien here. --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > At 01:36 PM 8/17/2004 -0700, Chris wrote: > > >Damien forwarded some statistics: > > > >>The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, it owned > >>83 percent of all wealth. > > > >But notice that these are statistics for wealth, not income. In the US > >(and I have to assume until corrected, in Australia as well) most taxes > >are based on income, not wealth. > > You need to read the full interview I url'd; e.g.: > > < MM: To what extent is inequality addressed through tax policy? > Wolff: One reason we have such high levels of inequality, compared to other > advanced industrial countries, is because of our tax and, I would add, our > social expenditure system. We have much lower taxes than almost every > Western European country. And we have a less progressive tax system than > almost every Western European country. As a result, the rich in this > country manage to retain a much higher share of their income than they do > in other countries, and this enables them to accumulate a much higher > amount of wealth than the rich in other countries. > > Certainly our tax system has helped to stimulate the rise of inequality in > this country. > > > However: > > rising level of income inequality? > Wolff: Part of it reflects underlying increases in income inequality, but > the other significant factor is what has happened to the ratio between > stock prices and housing prices. The major asset of the middle class is > their home. The major assets of the rich are stocks and small business > equity. If stock prices increase more quickly than housing prices, then the > share of wealth owned by the richest households goes up. This turns out to > be almost as important as underlying changes in income inequality. For the > last 25 or 30 years, despite the bear market we've had over the last two > years, stock prices have gone up quite a bit faster than housing prices. > > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 03:59:34 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:29:34 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] just test pls ignore In-Reply-To: <009101c484ce$779f6240$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <009101c484ce$779f6240$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <710b78fc04081720592ef9ab3@mail.gmail.com> I can see it (if that helps) Emlyn ----- Original Message ----- From: Brett Paatsch Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:52:57 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] just test pls ignore To: ExI chat list had email delivery probs and seeing if this shows up via web _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 04:41:45 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:11:45 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] just test pls ignore In-Reply-To: <009101c484ce$779f6240$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <009101c484ce$779f6240$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <710b78fc04081721412e8e3298@mail.gmail.com> More test crap, ignore this also. Stop reading now. Now! Really really really. Ey, I give up. On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:52:57 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > had email delivery probs and seeing if this shows up via web > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Aug 18 06:33:26 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:33:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04081718438702b3b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Think of the very best cook you have ever known in your life, the meals that masterful chef prepared, and how you loved to devour those delectable viands, which would tempt the palates of connoisseurs from both hemispheres. To those of more delicate sensibilities, they would add a still more aesthetic charm. Now what if that chef were cooking for you three squares a day, 7/52. What would happen? Remember those frozen dinners that showed up in the 1970s, how vile they were? How much better they are today. Like life forms, food is evolving. Those foods which few people devour soon fall off the radar screen, replaced by robust Krispy Kremes, those toxic toroids of luscious lipoproteins, McDonalds burgers and other such life-threatening delights. It occurred to me that all the mechanisms that will cause food to evolve quickly have been put in place in the past half century: worldwide distribution networks, franchises, centralized supply sources which can study which foods sell best in which places. These mechanisms quickly tune up the process, propagating the best food memes and rejecting the only slightly less successful. The result is that food is becoming ever more tempting, contributing to the alarming increase of human adipose all over the world. It is analogous to having our favorite chef available more and more often. Extrapolate this trend into the future. Is there any reason to believe that food is as good as it will ever get? Why? If it continues to get ever more irresistible as time goes on, what scenarios can we imagine? Will flab continue to overtake an ever larger percentage of people? Or will we eventually reverse course and demand less tasty foods? Will better nutrition education help? Will more and more people perish of diabetes and weight related heart disease, or will it soon level off? spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 06:43:52 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 16:13:52 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food In-Reply-To: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc040817234377df839b@mail.gmail.com> I think we'll get more and more tempting food, causing continuing problems until we finally get the heavily demanded magic-fix-me-up pills that we need to deal with all this crap. I hope so, anyway... who says you can't have your cake and eat it too? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:33:26 -0700, Spike wrote: > Think of the very best cook you have ever known in your > life, the meals that masterful chef prepared, and how you > loved to devour those delectable viands, which would tempt > the palates of connoisseurs from both hemispheres. To > those of more delicate sensibilities, they would add a > still more aesthetic charm. > > Now what if that chef were cooking for you three squares > a day, 7/52. What would happen? > > Remember those frozen dinners that showed up in the 1970s, > how vile they were? How much better they are today. > Like life forms, food is evolving. Those foods which few > people devour soon fall off the radar screen, replaced by > robust Krispy Kremes, those toxic toroids of luscious > lipoproteins, McDonalds burgers and other such life-threatening > delights. It occurred to me that all the mechanisms that will > cause food to evolve quickly have been put in place in the past > half century: worldwide distribution networks, franchises, > centralized supply sources which can study which foods > sell best in which places. These mechanisms quickly tune up > the process, propagating the best food memes and rejecting > the only slightly less successful. The result is that food > is becoming ever more tempting, contributing to the alarming > increase of human adipose all over the world. It is analogous > to having our favorite chef available more and more often. > > Extrapolate this trend into the future. Is there any > reason to believe that food is as good as it will ever > get? Why? If it continues to get ever more irresistible > as time goes on, what scenarios can we imagine? Will flab > continue to overtake an ever larger percentage of people? > Or will we eventually reverse course and demand less tasty > foods? Will better nutrition education help? Will more > and more people perish of diabetes and weight related > heart disease, or will it soon level off? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com Wed Aug 18 10:47:18 2004 From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:47:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food In-Reply-To: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <412333B6.7070805@dsl.pipex.com> Spike wrote: >Extrapolate this trend into the future. Is there any >reason to believe that food is as good as it will ever >get? Why? If it continues to get ever more irresistible >as time goes on, what scenarios can we imagine? Will flab >continue to overtake an ever larger percentage of people? >Or will we eventually reverse course and demand less tasty >foods? Will better nutrition education help? Will more >and more people perish of diabetes and weight related >heart disease, or will it soon level off? > > Food is hard. Creating food is still an unsolved problem; we're still learning. As with most things, our initial reaction to the problem of the inadequacy of (processed/fast) food has been nostalgia: we want people to go back to the old way of doing things. I think, however, that fast food is a genuinely positive development. Food preparation is difficult, arduous, and requires a great deal of knowledge. Fast food is no less great a development than, say, the introduction of the washing machine; it just has some wrinkles that need to be ironed out. I think, for the most part, as we solve the problems the solutions will be taken up by industry: if it was healthy to eat McDonalds every day, they'd have more customers than they do now. It's a straightforward incentive. I think also that it's primarily the fact that McDonalds et al can't reach the larger, more health-conscious, middle-class demographic now that causes them to take the strategy of foisting large portions of food on the unfortunate demographic they can reach (i.e., the poor and people in a hurry). As fast food is able to serve more of the population (i.e., relatively wealthy return customers), the incentives to tailor food toward addiction and inadequancy of fulfilment drop off. BM From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Aug 18 11:45:08 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:45:08 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food In-Reply-To: <412333B6.7070805@dsl.pipex.com> References: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <412333B6.7070805@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: Hm. What an interesting thought! Agreed, more food is available more often... summer fruit in winter, fresh vegs year round, etc. But... still the quality is frequently "off" so I buy locally fresh when available. And grow what I can because even locallly grown isn't as yummy as fresh picked off my own plants! The expense of pre-prepared food in the grocery is too high. I buy bread and milk and butter and such, but people think of those as basic although they used to be made at home. I look at the "pre-cut" "fresh" veggies in my supermarket and they are nasty, all brown edges and wilted leaves, even though they're in special "fresh-keeper" bags and twice the price. I don't buy them. Tried a few, not again. Ugh. IMO pre-prepared food has a *long* way to go before it replaces plain food. Krispy Kreme donuts are an occasional treat, though! :))) Regards, MB On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Bryan Moss wrote: > Spike wrote: > > >Extrapolate this trend into the future. Is there any > >reason to believe that food is as good as it will ever > >get? Why? If it continues to get ever more irresistible > >as time goes on, what scenarios can we imagine? Will flab > >continue to overtake an ever larger percentage of people? > >Or will we eventually reverse course and demand less tasty > >foods? Will better nutrition education help? Will more > >and more people perish of diabetes and weight related > >heart disease, or will it soon level off? > > > > > Food is hard. Creating food is still an unsolved problem; we're still > learning. As with most things, our initial reaction to the problem of > the inadequacy of (processed/fast) food has been nostalgia: we want > people to go back to the old way of doing things. I think, however, > that fast food is a genuinely positive development. Food preparation > is difficult, arduous, and requires a great deal of knowledge. Fast > food is no less great a development than, say, the introduction of the > washing machine; it just has some wrinkles that need to be ironed out. > I think, for the most part, as we solve the problems the solutions will > be taken up by industry: if it was healthy to eat McDonalds every day, > they'd have more customers than they do now. It's a straightforward > incentive. > > I think also that it's primarily the fact that McDonalds et al can't > reach the larger, more health-conscious, middle-class demographic now > that causes them to take the strategy of foisting large portions of food > on the unfortunate demographic they can reach (i.e., the poor and people > in a hurry). As fast food is able to serve more of the population > (i.e., relatively wealthy return customers), the incentives to tailor > food toward addiction and inadequancy of fulfilment drop off. > From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Aug 18 14:26:15 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:26:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Question About Integrity of Genes after Death Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040818072248.02d86560@mail.earthlink.net> I received an email from Julie Lavoie: "I need to study more specificaly the future of us gene after we are death since they legislate they can use it if we didn't notice by writing to maintain the integrity of the body. In fact I would like to create a study group to realise another of my inventions. Thank for your collaboration!" __________________________________________ Many thanks for helping Julie with her query. Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Aug 18 14:43:01 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:43:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817163640.04d3f008@unreasonable.com> References: <102540-22004821719518582@M2W103.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040818074056.03624490@mail.earthlink.net> At 05:43 PM 8/17/04 -0400, David wrote: >By the way, if you are concerned about fuel economy, SUV hybrids are now >becoming available, such as the 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid. Yes, I've seen them. Nice. I'm sticking with my 1992 Benz - mileage is very great and I cannot afford a new car right now :-) I like luxury cars, sports cars scar me. N >-- David Lubkin. > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Wed Aug 18 11:48:06 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:48:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food-Pharma meets Nutra References: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <412333B6.7070805@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <412341F4.1F5AAE37@sasktel.net> Commercializing designer food is a huge problem. We here in Canada have "novel food" which is regulated to need pre-market testing. However we have under the NHPD an exemption which allows a health practitioner CAM or regular MD to prescribe a formulation and allow the custome to have it custom formulated. There is still the "psyche of inevitability" in the mainstream population. Only yesterday while helping re-roof a cousin's house another neighbour said, "what it all that stuff you do only makes you live 6 months longer?" So what , it's my right to risk not changing the natural course of events. By the time I know the answers it will be too late for both of us.. right. I am pasting a piece regarding my custom food tastes and where the "Pharma meets the Nutra" in a diet. Evolution from a pharma sense has to be coupled with evolution from a gastronomic sense. You can make designer foods look like the everday stuff, but then you strip it of a new identity that might define it and "brand" it. Why breed a cantaloupe so it looks and tastes like a watermelon.... is my point. ***************************************** Subject: Time for me to be a test case - E45 CARDS Project Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2004 18:52:49 -0500 From: "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." I have beside me my MMAR application which my General Practitioner filled out for me Nov 10, 2003. I am using the Category 3 First Medical Specialist Form. My indications are for long standing back pain from years of operating a farm. Over the years I utilized a number of nutritional supplements. Over the 2000 year as I was consuming large quantities of test product for a multi-component medical (Natural Health Product) food I experience a remission which has proved to be permanent. Part of the therapy was 2-6 grams of hemp bud eaten daily. For 3 years I used dried and reformulated bud in the bar. Since Feb 2004 I have used fresh daily bud usually of the hemp cannabis variety, but occaisionally of a marijuana chemotype at bedtime. I now do all the activities I did before the early 1980's when all this began, without any re-occurance of the condition. I do have in addition to the cannabis a nutritional program which includes 2 X 24 gram servings in a food bar form containing 20 other food derived supplements (such as a 10% soy isoflavone soy germ concentrate) The details are on the website for all that. In addition, I take the following daily. 10-15 grams (Berberis) Barberry Bark (ground and mixed with juice) 10-15 grams of (Centella Asiatica) Gotu Kola (mixed with juice) Conjugated Linoleic Acid Alpha Lipoic Acid Fish oil Levamisole , an immunostimulant 150 mg daily 5-15 grams of fresh hemp bud chewed or in a salad 500Mcg Vitamin B-12 A good quality Multi Vitamin-Mineral 20mg Lipitor Usually a strong Cocao and Coffee and milk "High Test" mixture in the morning Infrequently when I drive home overtired I chew a nicorette gum for a 2 hour session. So, my MMAR application states 5 grams cannabis in an oral food product. Today I went in for a copy of my latest physical done on July 29, 2004 I am 49, 5 ft 91/2, 175 pounds ( 10 pounds heavier than before 2003), and short-sighted since I was 14. My medical profile reads thusly: -PSA 0.6 Normal = 0.00- 4.0 -TSH (thyroid) 0.922 Normal= 0.35-5.0 -Electrocardiogram=normal -Fasting Glucose= 4.7 Normal=3.6-6.1 so I have a good average blood sugar management level -After meal Glucose= 3.9 Normal = 3.6-6.1 However note that most people have a higher blood sugar level after eating, mine actually is as good as it gets when others might go up substantially. Urea= 4.7 Normal= 3.6-6.1 Creatine=91 Normal=60-130 Total Bilirubin=8 Normal=2-20 Alt=42 Normal=21-73 So my kidneys and liver are not suffering any stress Cholesterol (Low) 3.69 Normal= 3.8-5.2 Triglicerides=.89 Normal=.35-2.00 HDL Cholesterol= 1.36 Normal=.9-2.4 Cholesterol/HDLC=2.71 LDL=1.92 So even with a breakfast with 5 eggs and all I have enough cholesterol to be healthy by not an overly large amount of the LDL and triglycerides. I have had physicals since age 40 , all within average specifications Treatment Goals: My application is to maintain my physical conditon and prevent cardiovascular disease, keep arthritis and lower back weaknesses from becoming chronic inflammation and pain again. As well , normal age related neurological decline is to be slowed down somewhat. Bone density is to be maintained. Cancer prevention is a goal as well. As well the supplements are designed to minimize damage if a catastrophic event should happen. This is a life-long therapeutic program. At age 49 while things are considered normal, there undoubtedly is age-related biochemical degeneration silently working away. I had intended to apply last December, but was waiting for changes of the MMAR to the promised simplified form or maybe a simple Rx. My doctor and I discussed things today, and agreed that hunting down a specialist in Regina to sanction a health restorative-maintenace program which involves numerous natural health products would be virtually impossible, not to mention enormously time consuming. We also agreed that when there is a waiting list for sick people, for me to take a specialists time was not only a waste of his time but detrimental to those on a waiting list. So when I left I said, OK I guess this is the time to do what I must do: and that is this: File fior the MMAR and refer to the Smith Falls Case as well as leverage. Not above the law Ottawa Citizen August 9, 2004 Editorial A marijuana grow-op in Smiths Falls has done all Canadians a favour by focusing a bright light on the federal government's flagrant violation of the rule of law in its handling of medical marijuana. Last week, police raided Carasel Harvest Supply Corp., which operates in an old Canadian Tire building, after they learned (through media reports) that the company had started growing marijuana even though Health Canada hadn't given the company a licence yet. Health Canada's refusal to give a licence to Carasel is now being challenged in the courts as an "unconstitutional barrier" to medicinal marijuana users. Right now, the health ministry will let an eligible sick person grow marijuana, and it will let that person designate someone else to grow marijuana on his or her behalf, but it won't let more than one user designate the same other person to do the growing. That means the only legal multiple-client grower is the government's single source in Flin Flon, whose product many users dismiss as ditchweed. This policy is more than addled: it's unconstitutional. Last fall, the Ontario Court of Appeal struck down three Health Canada rules on marijuana-growing, including the no- multiple-customers one, on the grounds that they effectively forced many users to buy their medicine from drug dealers -- what the government called "unlicensed suppliers." The rules, the court's three judges wrote, "create an alliance between the Government and the black market whereby the Government authorizes possession of marijuana for medical purposes and the black market supplies the necessary product." Health Canada dropped two rules so users could now pay growers and the lowering the medical standards for some of them, but it decided to ignore the court's decision that said a grower should be able to supply more than one user. Spokeswoman Aggie Adamczyk says the regulators consider the court's order "useful guidance" and believe they're living up to the principles laid out by the judges. It's hard to see how Health Canada can say that, as the court's decision was clear: Health Canada either had to scrap its whole regulation system and try again, or keep the existing system minus the three rules that were unconstitutional and "of no force and effect." The department decided to ignore the court, Ms. Adamczyk says, because growers working for more than one user might find ways to sell extra marijuana on the side, thus supplying the black market. Health Canada doesn't get to follow the court orders it agrees with and skip the ones it doesn't: if you tried it, you'd go to jail. Besides, such doublethink disregards the whole basis of the judges' orders: that the old rules forced legal users to buy their medicine from drug dealers. The volume of the supply aside, a single grower with a profit motive is easier to keep an eye on, and has a stronger incentive to comply with the rules, than a horde of amateurs with separate production costs to pay. Canadians shouldn't have to wait for Carasel's case to wend its way through the court system before the federal government comes up with a marijuana policy that's both constitutional and coherent. Contact: letters at thecitizen.canwest.com >Cannabis Culture >Date: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 >Canadian pot possession laws still invalid? >by Reverend Damuzi Cannabis Culture Exciting new med-pot challenge reveals flaws in law On August 4, police in Smith Falls, Ontario raided medical cannabis grower Carasel, a company whose owners hoped to provide high-quality pot to government-licensed medical users. At the heart of the raid is a basic disagreement between the federal government and Ontario courts which invalidates Canada's marijuana possession laws. Soon after the August 4 raid, renowned cannabis defender and university law professor Alan Young announced an exciting new court case. Associates of Carasel are suing the federal government. The grounds for the suit go back almost a year, to October 7, 2003, when the Ontario Court of Appeal ordered the federal government to amend med-pot regulations so that growers, like Carasel, could apply to grow for more than one licensed med-pot user. Currently, licensed growers can only provide medicine to one patient. Despite the court order, the federal government never made the change, and so Carasel's application was either never processed or denied, and they were eventually raided. The federal government also failed to comply with the Ontario Court's order to make med-pot exemptions easier for patients to get. Currently, the regulations require that certain patients get the approval of two medical specialists, an almost impossible feat for people suffering from rare illnesses or living in rural areas. The court ordered that the government change the requirement to one specialist. Because of the government's history of bad faith, Alan Young plans to be a witness in the case rather than an attorney. "I have the right issue, the right litigants, but I knew I wasn't going to do the case for a number of reasons," Young told Cannabis Culture. "Primarily I want to provide evidence of Health Canada's obstructionist approach, and because I've been doing this work pretty much from the beginning, the evidence mostly comes from me. [Compassion Centre lawyer] Ron Marzel is willing to work on this as attorney." There are even deeper issues behind the federal government's bad faith and stalling around med-pot. The Ontario Court of Appeal's October, 2003 order to change med- pot regulations was an attempt to sew up a constitutional deficiency in the possession laws. When the Ontario Court of Appeal made the order to change the med-pot regulations, they also ordered a period of pot-possession amnesty, from August 1, 2001 to the date of their ruling. During this period, pot possession laws were deemed unconstitutional. So the government's continued failure to make the change required by the Ontario Court of Appeal means that pot possession laws - even for recreational use - are still constitutionally deficient. Across Canada, challenges to the law are mounting. In Quebec, for example, Marijuana Party Leader Marc Boris St Maurice is arguing the constitutionality of his marijuana possession charges. "Whether you're carrying marijuana because you think it looks pretty, or because you found it, or because perhaps you like to rub it on your hair at night, because it smells nice. None of that is relevant. Whether it is for medical use or other use, none of that is relevant," St-Maurice told the press. "The law is bad, and so the offense must be taken out." **************************************************** Aug 11 (1 day ago) From: Arla Johnson To: mychanl at sccd.sk.ca Cc: mfj.eav at gmail.com, cattlelack at sasktel.net, r.mwick at asktel.net, buffalom at mts.net Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 12:17:41 -0600 Subject: E45 Legal details.. please confirm reciept of and presentation to Committee Reply | Reply to all | Forward | Print | Add sender to contacts list | Trash this message | Show original ATTN: CARDS Committee: LEGALITY of E45 This is the exact process this project E45 is using with references to the legality of each step. The Market Development area of the project creates a contact list of health practitioners based on specialities related to conditions cannabinoids may benefit. EAV has a number of contacts who can provide specific leads to get this part started. Robert R. will develop a procedure to contact and inform practitioners of the method of access we can offer to medical marijuana clients as well as the physical formulations they can be provided within. -The NHPD regulations quoted specifically permit custom formulation upon the recommendation of a health practitioner's recommendation for a patient. SEE- E45 application , clarification of legal issues , item #9 Between August 15-30 a condo complex prototype will begin to be constructed within EAV's Lake Alma facility. This will be modified so that it suits the pilot stage requirements. On or about Aug 15-Aug 30 EAV can remove from land owned by Morris Johnson upon which Crag, a variety of hemp was seeded July 05. These plants plants go to Lake Alma for harvest/processing. These plants, an estimated number of 1000, will be transferred into Condo physical configurations within the EAV facility at Lake Alma. -EAV has Hemp permit 04-E0031-C-02 which covers processing of hemp at this site. These first plants will be grown in soil similar to the first R&D condo of which a photo is supplied with this application. The pot size and lighting will be upgraded based on experience with the R&D condo @SW34-01-16 Feb 29 to date. Hemp materials will be continuously harvested in a form which has whole immature seed heads. These will be frozen for further processing. Our experience to date with plants growing since Feb 29 2004 at SW34-01-16 is that under indoor conditions hemp has a much longer productive lifespan than it has under field conditions. Plants 6 months old are still producing to date. It appears that hemp might be continuously harvested for several months under the right conditions. Initial Condo contract holders will be assisted to apply for MMAR permits. Initial clients will be persons presenting with medical conditions which require CBD, the only cannabinoid present in hemp. This will include rheumatoid and other arthritis, and possibly irritable bowl syndrome and glaucoma. The NHPD regulations referred to above, permit us to incorporate these immature seed heads into ony one of our food formulations or create one to order. Each bar in this case will have 2grams of this form of cannabis. Customers will be supplied with enough of this product immediately upon signing a condo contract to cover the time expected to get their MMAR applications completed by an MD and processed by Health Canada. The initial Rx for this material only requires a GP or Complementary Alternative Medicine practitioner so will happen similtaneous to the signing of a Condo Contract. This corresponds to the 250 bar minimum for custom formulation batches and will last for the first 125 days. These formulations contain only processed hemp and no THC so are regulated by the Hemp Production regulations. Representative samples of the hemp materials (field of origin) are submitted to Health Canada approved labs by CFIA persons who come out and sample the field of origin during the normal growing season. The daily consumption of cannabis in this manner constitutes the same 4 grams which the MMAR application will ask for on their MMAR permit. There is no requirement on the MMAR applicaction to specify which chemotype of cannabis is being consumed. Once the medical client recieves their MMAR permit, a variety specific to their exact needs will be selected by them or their physician or EAV and seeds or clones started. The Condo complex at Lake Alma will start these plants in a hydroponic high intensity production condo setting. The original hemp plants may be transferred to this hydroponic setting or remain in soil at this point. For persons with severe pain with their arthritis, for example a variety with THC may constitute the portion of their medication which will be consumed at bedtime. This provides relief without disrupting daily functioning. For persons with certain cancers CBG and CBN should be present in significant quantities as these are more specific to tumor inhibition. As medical clients with THC, CBG CBN or other cannabinoid containing condos get up and running a supply of these chemotypes for new clients will become available immediately upon the MMAR reciept. As the MMAR evolves SEE- E45 CARDS application, Legal issues section #12 Regulatory affairs:Parliamentary....... this lag time for approval may shorten substantially. As well as physicians become more aware of the applications of for cannabis based medicines the time for a patient to see a doctor for an RX will decrease as well. The point being, is that we have developed a legal method to take the patient through the process and create a supply of medically useful product which starts immediately upon the signing of a Condo Contract SEE #8 item of submitted to CARDS with original application June 18 and listed with "additional information submitted to support the application" E45 Project results might be presented to the Health Canada as an example of what pharmacists could access "based on a pharmaceutical care model". See: E45 CARDS application, Legal issues section #12 Regulatory affairs: Parliamentary, (at the very end of that subsection). All facets of this project have been reviewed for their legality, and we feel certain we have covered everything. Morris Bryan Moss wrote: > Spike wrote: > > >Extrapolate this trend into the future. Is there any > >reason to believe that food is as good as it will ever > >get? Why? If it continues to get ever more irresistible > >as time goes on, what scenarios can we imagine? Will flab > >continue to overtake an ever larger percentage of people? > >Or will we eventually reverse course and demand less tasty > >foods? Will better nutrition education help? Will more > >and more people perish of diabetes and weight related > >heart disease, or will it soon level off? > > > > > Food is hard. Creating food is still an unsolved problem; we're still > learning. As with most things, our initial reaction to the problem of > the inadequacy of (processed/fast) food has been nostalgia: we want > people to go back to the old way of doing things. I think, however, > that fast food is a genuinely positive development. Food preparation > is difficult, arduous, and requires a great deal of knowledge. Fast > food is no less great a development than, say, the introduction of the > washing machine; it just has some wrinkles that need to be ironed out. > I think, for the most part, as we solve the problems the solutions will > be taken up by industry: if it was healthy to eat McDonalds every day, > they'd have more customers than they do now. It's a straightforward > incentive. > > I think also that it's primarily the fact that McDonalds et al can't > reach the larger, more health-conscious, middle-class demographic now > that causes them to take the strategy of foisting large portions of food > on the unfortunate demographic they can reach (i.e., the poor and people > in a hurry). As fast food is able to serve more of the population > (i.e., relatively wealthy return customers), the incentives to tailor > food toward addiction and inadequancy of fulfilment drop off. > > BM > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Wed Aug 18 11:50:17 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:50:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food-Pharma VS Nutra References: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <710b78fc040817234377df839b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41234279.BE21D4DD@sasktel.net> Subject: Marketing Products Using FDA Health Claims Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:02:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "Forbes.com Alerts" Reply-To: "Forbes.com Alerts Unsubscribe" To: Alerts Recipients Marketing Products Using FDA Health Claims How have companies been marketing their products using health and wellness claims from the FDA? Click the link below to read the full story: http://www.forbes.com/2004/08/18/0818findsvphealth.html Emlyn wrote: > I think we'll get more and more tempting food, causing continuing > problems until we finally get the heavily demanded magic-fix-me-up > pills that we need to deal with all this crap. I hope so, anyway... > who says you can't have your cake and eat it too? > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 23:33:26 -0700, Spike wrote: > > Think of the very best cook you have ever known in your > > life, the meals that masterful chef prepared, and how you > > loved to devour those delectable viands, which would tempt > > the palates of connoisseurs from both hemispheres. To > > those of more delicate sensibilities, they would add a > > still more aesthetic charm. > > > > Now what if that chef were cooking for you three squares > > a day, 7/52. What would happen? > > > > Remember those frozen dinners that showed up in the 1970s, > > how vile they were? How much better they are today. > > Like life forms, food is evolving. Those foods which few > > people devour soon fall off the radar screen, replaced by > > robust Krispy Kremes, those toxic toroids of luscious > > lipoproteins, McDonalds burgers and other such life-threatening > > delights. It occurred to me that all the mechanisms that will > > cause food to evolve quickly have been put in place in the past > > half century: worldwide distribution networks, franchises, > > centralized supply sources which can study which foods > > sell best in which places. These mechanisms quickly tune up > > the process, propagating the best food memes and rejecting > > the only slightly less successful. The result is that food > > is becoming ever more tempting, contributing to the alarming > > increase of human adipose all over the world. It is analogous > > to having our favorite chef available more and more often. > > > > Extrapolate this trend into the future. Is there any > > reason to believe that food is as good as it will ever > > get? Why? If it continues to get ever more irresistible > > as time goes on, what scenarios can we imagine? Will flab > > continue to overtake an ever larger percentage of people? > > Or will we eventually reverse course and demand less tasty > > foods? Will better nutrition education help? Will more > > and more people perish of diabetes and weight related > > heart disease, or will it soon level off? > > > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 12:56:36 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 07:56:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com><6.1.1.1.0.20040817125552.01d2eec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><41226C61.5090906@mydruthers.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040817160616.01c87e88@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: I don;t think the gapo between rich and poor is important at all. Who really cares what they have? WHy should they be brought down? Is it just a matter of jealousy? If they are rich, and own all that wealth, so what? The only real matetr of importance is whether or not everyone else is suffering from it. If the poorest people's lives are continually improving, I fail to see how thier wealth matters at all. If they didn;t exist, would we be any better or worse off? Also, those figures are wealth, not income. If someone owns a bunch of land that is very valuable, that is wealth. We are talking about income taxes...unless you want a separate wealth tax as well. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2004 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap > At 01:36 PM 8/17/2004 -0700, Chris wrote: > > >Damien forwarded some statistics: > > > >>The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, it owned > >>83 percent of all wealth. > > > >But notice that these are statistics for wealth, not income. In the US > >(and I have to assume until corrected, in Australia as well) most taxes > >are based on income, not wealth. > > You need to read the full interview I url'd; e.g.: > > < MM: To what extent is inequality addressed through tax policy? > Wolff: One reason we have such high levels of inequality, compared to other > advanced industrial countries, is because of our tax and, I would add, our > social expenditure system. We have much lower taxes than almost every > Western European country. And we have a less progressive tax system than > almost every Western European country. As a result, the rich in this > country manage to retain a much higher share of their income than they do > in other countries, and this enables them to accumulate a much higher > amount of wealth than the rich in other countries. > > Certainly our tax system has helped to stimulate the rise of inequality in > this country. > > > However: > > rising level of income inequality? > Wolff: Part of it reflects underlying increases in income inequality, but > the other significant factor is what has happened to the ratio between > stock prices and housing prices. The major asset of the middle class is > their home. The major assets of the rich are stocks and small business > equity. If stock prices increase more quickly than housing prices, then the > share of wealth owned by the richest households goes up. This turns out to > be almost as important as underlying changes in income inequality. For the > last 25 or 30 years, despite the bear market we've had over the last two > years, stock prices have gone up quite a bit faster than housing prices. > > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 13:12:12 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 06:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040818074056.03624490@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040818131212.77530.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > I'm sticking with my 1992 Benz - mileage is very great and I cannot > afford a new car right now :-) I like luxury cars, sports cars scar > me. Is that scar or scare? Or both? ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From gregburch at gregburch.net Wed Aug 18 13:15:07 2004 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:15:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817163640.04d3f008@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: > From: David Lubkin > > In February, here in New England, driving a different class of vehicle in > other years has meant leaving my vehicle a mile from home because > the road > was impassible, sliding uncontrollably down an icy hill into traffic, > skidding into a snowbank, or simply having to go the long way around > because I knew my car wouldn't make it up a hill. > > More generally for extropians, a suitably chosen and outfitted > SUV, *with* > the experience to use it effectively, can be a life-saver in a variety of > natural or man-made circumstances, either in getting away from a > hazard or > to a medical facility. > > By the way, if you are concerned about fuel economy, SUV hybrids are now > becoming available, such as the 2005 Ford Escape Hybrid. One of the things that galls me about the SUV craze is that in a sense it has spoiled it for people who really need and/or use SUVs for what they are good at. I don't aim my car-guy sneers at folks in that category, and I acknowledge that that there is a relatively narrow category of driver/utily for which an SUV is basically the perfect car. I also welcome the development of more sensible SUVs. The new breed of vehicles that are basically "jacked-up, 4wd station wagons" get my thumbs up (for instance, I think the Infiniti F35/45 is way, way cool looking and not too far over the top. I almost bought one recently, which would have required writing a zillion words of explanation at my anti-SUV page. My wife saved me that chore by deciding that she wanted a P/T Cruiser, which is basically precisely what I've been saying most people who drive SUVs should have (in the process helping to explain why we've been together for 25 years...) I've actually devoted way too much drive-time thought to the problems involved in designing a "rational SUV." With the exception of the raw mass of the current crop of truck-derived SUVs, there's nothing inherently wrong with the basic platform. So I've developed a list of design concepts for such an "extropian SUV:" ** Materials. Replacing the acres of sheet steel in the body work of SUVs with composites would save hundreds of pounds of mass. ** Frame design. By replacing the heavy, old-fashioned ladder frame with a spidery space frame, more mass could be shaved. With modern robotic fabrication techniques, it's much easier to employ space frames than it used to be. Major manufacturers can do this so that a technology that used to be the sole reserve of custom race cars could be brought to the mass market. Good design could recapture the supposed safety benefits of the massive traditional SUV's crashworthiness with crush zones. ** Hybird Motors. As you point out, this is happening and, ironically, the greater space available in the SUV platform makes them a natural for hybrid technology. ** Suspension. Again with modern manufacturing technology the greater number and complexity of parts required to use a real independent rear suspension (IRS) isn't a problem. I've noted that more and more small and mid-size SUVs are starting to have IRS. The benefits in improved handling are significant, and the loss in gross pulling power in getting rid of the heavy, inflexible solid rear axle isn't felt by the soccer moms who never need to tow a mobile ICBM. ** Center of Gravity. The first three factors above will naturally lower the center of gravity (the hybrids' placement of their batteries down low in the frame, for instance). Further employment of a little thought to move as many components to the bottom of the design as possible can do this. Even more smarts employed to make an actively-controlled suspension that raises and lowers the vehicle for various modes finishes the C/G problem. Greg Burch The Headless Horseman of the Apocalypse http://www.gregburch.net/burchismo.html From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Aug 18 15:16:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:16:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003301c48536$5a204910$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Greg Burch ... > One of the things that galls me about the SUV craze is that > in a sense it has spoiled it for people who really need > and/or use SUVs for what they are good at... > Infiniti F35/45 is way, way cool looking and not too far over > the top... Greg Burch Greg, part of the appeal of the SUV is the notion that should one fall upon hard times, one could live in it. There was a period in my own life when I would gladly have lived in my car, had I owned a car at that time. There is a silver lining to all this in a sense. Currently used SUV and van prices are dropping to the extent that they will surely be the vehicle of choice for the underclasses. Since they also get poor gas mileage, as the price of fuel rises, the underclass are less likely to take them joyriding, or anywhere besides to work and to the local McDonalds. That will in the long run cause our roads to be less crowded. The thread title should be "real extropians *with money* don't drive SUVs." Of course the parking lot of the local Walmart will become more crowded, but thats a whole nuther problem. spike From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 15:29:46 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:29:46 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: You could rather easily live out of a 1990 saab hatchback with fold down seats. People make excuses for SUVs, but it's hard to justify a "need". BAL >From: "Spike" >To: "'ExI chat list'" >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 08:16:31 -0700 > > > Greg Burch >... > > One of the things that galls me about the SUV craze is that > > in a sense it has spoiled it for people who really need > > and/or use SUVs for what they are good at... > > Infiniti F35/45 is way, way cool looking and not too far over > > the top... Greg Burch > >Greg, part of the appeal of the SUV is the notion that >should one fall upon hard times, one could live in it. >There was a period in my own life when I would gladly >have lived in my car, had I owned a car at that time. > >There is a silver lining to all this in a sense. Currently >used SUV and van prices are dropping to the extent that they >will surely be the vehicle of choice for the underclasses. >Since they also get poor gas mileage, as the price of fuel >rises, the underclass are less likely to take them >joyriding, or anywhere besides to work and to the local >McDonalds. That will in the long run cause our roads to >be less crowded. > >The thread title should be "real extropians *with money* >don't drive SUVs." > >Of course the parking lot of the local Walmart will become >more crowded, but thats a whole nuther problem. > >spike > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Aug 18 15:51:46 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:46 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040817163640.04d3f008@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040818103034.01dc82b0@unreasonable.com> Greg wrote: >I acknowledge that that there is a relatively narrow category of >driver/utily for which an SUV is basically the perfect car. I don't think it's that narrow. For starters, there's a hefty chunk of the population that lives, works, or recreates in the frozen north or a rural setting, or would otherwise buy a pickup truck with a cab. Sub/urban drivers who would not often require SUV features could still benefit from them in emergency situations, but some of the gain stems from others who are also fleeing being ill-prepared. Were LA to face a calamity that not all could survive, I'd rather Natasha have a relative advantage. >Good design could recapture the supposed safety benefits of the massive >traditional SUV's crashworthiness with crush zones. Doesn't some of the crashworthiness derive from raw weight? Won't a heavier instance of the same design have more crashworthiness than a lighter version? I'm recalling homework problems involving momentum and kinetic energy in elastic and inelastic collisions. >** Hybird Motors. As you point out, this is happening and, ironically, >the greater space available in the SUV platform makes them a natural for >hybrid technology. I'd rather see a design that could run on anything that poured or burned. Why are diesels rare in consumer vehicles? Why didn't the steam revival succeed? (Years back, there was a good article on them in analog. "Steamer Time?" by Wallace West, in the 9/1968 issue.) >the loss in gross pulling power in getting rid of the heavy, inflexible >solid rear axle isn't felt by the soccer moms who never need to tow a >mobile ICBM. Many soccer moms have daughters who are into horses. In my married days, we had a Suburban to pull a horse trailer. Damn heavy. And wouldn't a soccer mom need to tow mobile ICBMs in an "Ungoverned" future? I've met a few Second Amendment Sisters who'd be up for it. >** Center of Gravity. The first three factors above will naturally lower >the center of gravity (the hybrids' placement of their batteries down low >in the frame, for instance). Further employment of a little thought to >move as many components to the bottom of the design as possible can do >this. Even more smarts employed to make an actively-controlled suspension >that raises and lowers the vehicle for various modes finishes the C/G problem. Some SUVs have this. (As did our 1970 Citroen wagon. It's amusing to see car manufacturers touting innovative features, like a second set of headlights that are linked to the steering wheel, that we had 30 years ago.) -- David Lubkin. From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 16:00:04 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:00:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: Considering demographics, the numbers of people who tow boats (or horses) is way lower than SUV purchases. I live in Atlanta and I see tons and tons of SUVs. It ices about once a year here and a good awd sedan will perform just as well as a hummer in those conditions. Maybe it's dream of towing horses or surviving a nuclear holocost that's attracting all these SUV buyers. All of the arguments except towing capacity apply equally to a volvo or bmw awd wagan as to an SUV. BAL >From: David Lubkin >To: ExI chat list >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:51:46 -0400 > >Greg wrote: > >>I acknowledge that that there is a relatively narrow category of >>driver/utily for which an SUV is basically the perfect car. > >I don't think it's that narrow. For starters, there's a hefty chunk of the >population that lives, works, or recreates in the frozen north or a rural >setting, or would otherwise buy a pickup truck with a cab. > >Sub/urban drivers who would not often require SUV features could still >benefit from them in emergency situations, but some of the gain stems from >others who are also fleeing being ill-prepared. Were LA to face a calamity >that not all could survive, I'd rather Natasha have a relative advantage. > >>Good design could recapture the supposed safety benefits of the massive >>traditional SUV's crashworthiness with crush zones. > >Doesn't some of the crashworthiness derive from raw weight? Won't a heavier >instance of the same design have more crashworthiness than a lighter >version? I'm recalling homework problems involving momentum and kinetic >energy in elastic and inelastic collisions. > >>** Hybird Motors. As you point out, this is happening and, ironically, >>the greater space available in the SUV platform makes them a natural for >>hybrid technology. > >I'd rather see a design that could run on anything that poured or burned. >Why are diesels rare in consumer vehicles? Why didn't the steam revival >succeed? (Years back, there was a good article on them in analog. "Steamer >Time?" by Wallace West, in the 9/1968 issue.) > >>the loss in gross pulling power in getting rid of the heavy, inflexible >>solid rear axle isn't felt by the soccer moms who never need to tow a >>mobile ICBM. > >Many soccer moms have daughters who are into horses. In my married days, we >had a Suburban to pull a horse trailer. Damn heavy. > >And wouldn't a soccer mom need to tow mobile ICBMs in an "Ungoverned" >future? I've met a few Second Amendment Sisters who'd be up for it. > >>** Center of Gravity. The first three factors above will naturally lower >>the center of gravity (the hybrids' placement of their batteries down low >>in the frame, for instance). Further employment of a little thought to >>move as many components to the bottom of the design as possible can do >>this. Even more smarts employed to make an actively-controlled suspension >>that raises and lowers the vehicle for various modes finishes the C/G >>problem. > >Some SUVs have this. (As did our 1970 Citroen wagon. It's amusing to see >car manufacturers touting innovative features, like a second set of >headlights that are linked to the steering wheel, that we had 30 years >ago.) > > >-- David Lubkin. > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From jonkc at att.net Wed Aug 18 16:32:56 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:32:56 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac><000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: <014601c48541$1431e840$a5ff4d0c@hal2001> The top 1% of the nation's taxpayers pay over 23% of the entire federal income tax burden; that's half again as much as the bottom 2/3, even though they are 67 times as numerous they pay less than 16% of the money needed to operate the government. Thus if you are going to lower taxes in a economically significant way it must effect people who actually pay taxes, and that means it will effect the very rich more than the very poor. Otherwise it's not economics, it's just a publicity stunt. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 17:03:59 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <003301c48536$5a204910$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040818170359.6179.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Of course the parking lot of the local Walmart will become > more crowded, but thats a whole nuther problem. Sure, but with 4wd, driving over the obstructions becomes much more practical. I'm waiting to see 4wd shopping cart scooters for disabled shoppers. "mud sale on aisle 32!" ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 17:09:01 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:09:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040818170901.7574.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > Considering demographics, the numbers of people who tow boats (or > horses) is > way lower than SUV purchases. > > I live in Atlanta and I see tons and tons of SUVs. It ices about once > a year > here and a good awd sedan will perform just as well as a hummer in > those conditions. depends on the tires, of course. Hummers more likely to have useful tires, the volvo is going to have some wimpy all seasons or rain tires, which are pretty useless in the especially icy winter conditions seen in the south. We northerners are always entertained by newsclips of southerners in winter storms spinning all over the place... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Aug 18 18:15:59 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:15:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040818134609.050022f8@unreasonable.com> Brian Lee wrote: >All of the arguments except towing capacity apply equally to a volvo or >bmw awd wagan as to an SUV. An AWD wagon will function as well as a 4WD vehicle under ordinary Atlanta city conditions. However, it lacks the 4L mode of a true 4WD. The Volvo and BMW also lack the other off-road features of a decent 4x4, such as ground clearance and underbody plating. A sizable chunk of my life (and, I believe, of Mike's) has been spent living or traveling in circumstances where a 4x4 is preferable or necessary. Also, Consumer Reports does not consider the Volvo or BMW AWD wagons to be as reliable as the 4Runner. -- David Lubkin. From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Aug 18 18:35:20 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 11:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food In-Reply-To: <412333B6.7070805@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20040818183520.48863.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Moss wrote: > I think also that it's primarily the fact that > McDonalds et al can't > reach the larger, more health-conscious, > middle-class demographic now > that causes them to take the strategy of foisting > large portions of food > on the unfortunate demographic they can reach (i.e., > the poor and people > in a hurry). As fast food is able to serve more of > the population > (i.e., relatively wealthy return customers), the > incentives to tailor > food toward addiction and inadequancy of fulfilment > drop off. I don't particularly see that McDonalds et al tailors their food this way - any more than food was already addictive. (We need to eat to live, so we are wired to think of eating as a good thing.) As I see it, it's more a matter of economics and what happens to have been developed. The current crop of fast food is cheap to make in bulk. That will likely remain a requisite for any mass-marketed food. Healthier food is more expensive to produce. The math leads to today's result. But it's also the case that healthier foods are being produced in greater quantities (a number of fast food places offer salads, for example), which drives their costs down in addition to research into how to produce them cheaper. (The various steps used today to squeeze every dollar out of a hamburger were not thought up overnight.) I'm looking forwards to the day when yeast, algae, or similar edible substances can be grown, flavored, and textured on the spot in any restuarant-sized kitchen, which should remove a lot of the infrastructure cost, especially if flavors and vitamins can likewise be produced in vats in the kitchen. This could also have a significant liberalizing effect: if a city is placed under seige by those who would use force to get their way, or resupply is threatened by corporate interests that have little to do with feeding the people, the restaurants can thumb their noses at these would-be masters and keep operating. (This would be more useful where the rule of law breaks down, since the law could repossess the restaurant if the law's still working.) From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Aug 18 19:19:57 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:19:57 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: <101530-220048318191957721@M2W036.mail2web.com> From: Mike Lorrey --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > I'm sticking with my 1992 Benz - mileage is very great and I cannot > afford a new car right now :-) I like luxury cars, sports cars scar > me. Is that scar or scare? Or both? ;) Both! ... been scared more than once by fast-paced vehicles. (But I meant to say scare of course). N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 19:56:03 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 15:56:03 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: Actually, Volvo makes a raised version (XC70) that does offer the clearance of an SUV and they function very well in off-road conditions. Additionally, I made it through the winters of Minnesota in a non-AWD station wagon. The amount of off-road driving done by typical SUV owners is negligible in the comparison, although it seems that you do a lot of off-roading in yours. BAL >From: David Lubkin >To: ExI chat list >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:15:59 -0400 > >Brian Lee wrote: > >>All of the arguments except towing capacity apply equally to a volvo or >>bmw awd wagan as to an SUV. > >An AWD wagon will function as well as a 4WD vehicle under ordinary Atlanta >city conditions. However, it lacks the 4L mode of a true 4WD. The Volvo and >BMW also lack the other off-road features of a decent 4x4, such as ground >clearance and underbody plating. > >A sizable chunk of my life (and, I believe, of Mike's) has been spent >living or traveling in circumstances where a 4x4 is preferable or >necessary. > >Also, Consumer Reports does not consider the Volvo or BMW AWD wagons to be >as reliable as the 4Runner. > > >-- David Lubkin. > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Wed Aug 18 20:42:20 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:42:20 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am having some difficulty relating the detailed discussion about the advantages of SUVs with Emlyn's original post. Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing their drivers in increasing numbers. Quote: "Even according to the revised figures there were mixed results in the 2003 figures, with deaths in sport utility vehicles (SUVs) rising dramatically, traffic deaths in motorcycle crashes increasing for the 6th year in a row, and fatalities in crashes involving large trucks on the upswing. Rollover deaths continued at high levels due to the ever-increasing proportion of light trucks in the passenger vehicle fleet. Overall, rollover deaths in SUVs jumped nearly 7 percent, from 2,471 in 2002 to 2,639 in 2003. The majority of people killed in SUVs, 6 of every 10, die in rollover crashes." David may be the exception that proves the rule, like the 90 year-old chain smoker next door, but you can't argue with the road kill figures. That's how Nader got famous, when the motor industry was selling cars that killed people in excessive numbers. BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 18 21:20:43 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 14:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040818212043.65501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > I am having some difficulty relating the detailed discussion about > the advantages of SUVs with Emlyn's original post. > > Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV > might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing > their drivers in increasing numbers. What it shows is that increasing numbers of incompetent drivers are driving vehicles that they do not take the time to learn to drive responsibly. Years ago the owner of a Subaru dealership told me: "2wd will get you out of situations you normally wouldn't get out of, but it will get you into situations you normally wouldn't get into." He was right, but learning to tell the difference between the two sorts of situations is the key to safe driving of any kind. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From paatschb at optusnet.com.au Wed Aug 18 22:19:46 2004 From: paatschb at optusnet.com.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:19:46 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Just test2 pls ignore Message-ID: <001701c48571$78501790$362c2dcb@homepc> Testing new userid -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Aug 18 22:19:49 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:19:49 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Just test pls ignore Message-ID: <001b01c48571$7d1e4170$362c2dcb@homepc> Texting old userid -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Aug 18 23:13:39 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:13:39 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040818182616.061e9978@unreasonable.com> BillK wrote: >Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV >might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing >their drivers in increasing numbers. > : >but you can't argue with the road kill >figures. That's how Nader got famous, when the motor industry was >selling cars that killed people in excessive numbers. Funny you should bring up Nader. There's a fairly good case that he misrepresented what was going on. As with thalidomide and with Erin Brockovich, reality differs from "what everyone knows." http://www.corvaircorsa.com/handling01.html http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomassowell/printts20040303.shtml I see you participated in the July thread "Driver safety and the immortalist" but apparently don't agree with the points raised about the distinction between correlation and causation, and the difficulty in teasing out causes. As in everything else, safety is not the only consideration in vehicle selection. And no vehicle choice will be the safest under all plausible driving scenarios. To me, the goal of a discussion among immortalists is to clarify the options and trade-offs so we can each make informed decisions for ourselves and recommendations for those we love. >but you can't argue with the road kill figures. *That's* plain goofy. We can and do argue with anything. -- David Lubkin. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Aug 18 23:42:15 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:42:15 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Just test pls ignore References: <001b01c48571$7d1e4170$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <00ce01c4857c$fdd6d3d0$362c2dcb@homepc> apologies for noise on the channel. Nothing to read here as is diagnostics only - Im seeing if old userid still gets mailed via server software to my mail program contents of my posts in a thread are not showing on exi list bbs unless they are replied to by other posters in which case its their post that pick them up suspect email attachment is being added either by setting in my new outlook express client or the server mailprog and server software is handling by culling attachment as per with eugen's posts where all content is in attachments David if you read this and can assist pls do -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From evmick at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 01:09:46 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:09:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. Message-ID: <4123FDDA.90306@earthlink.net> BillK apparently said. >Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV > might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing > their drivers in increasing numbers. You know?....this kind of non logic really ticks me off. Real extropians oughta know better. Since WHEN can an inantimate object display any type of violition? Do guns kill people? Do trucks kill people? Does aspirin kill people? Does TV kill people? Is it a great conspiricay of the inantimate to kill off humans? NO....in actuality stupid people kill themselves (which in the long run is a good thing)and others...(which is a bad thing) ....but by ascribing this logic to their actions they are releived of guilt...yeaa!...verily my brothers and cistern....gain martryr status......holy victimhood.... and are free to go about killing more people. Worse....this type of thinking gives the (can't think of a sufficiently bad descriptive adjective........yeah...but inappropriate to the venue) ......er......"people-who-know-what's-best-for-everyone-else" ammunition so that they can make MORE AND More and more and more RULES. To my way of thinking this attitude is similar if not identical to that of the Bad guys of 911 fame. After all THEY know god's will....they.... Etc. etc. etc....yammer yammer yammer..... This really gets my goat. Evmick....in the wastes of New Mexico....where "killer dust storms...and killer sun....and Killer...." "Against stupidity....the gods themselves contend in vain" "For centuries engineers have been trying to foolproof technology.....so far the fools are winning" From evmick at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 01:29:06 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:29:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Killer SUV's (oh my) Message-ID: <41240262.5020805@earthlink.net> and the same mentality that brings Killer SUV's b rings.... Tadaaaaaaaaaa *IDIOTS IN SERVICE* This week, my phone went dead and I had to contact the telephone repair people. They promised to be out between 8:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m. When I asked if they could give me a smaller time window, the pleasant gentleman asked, "Would you like us to call you before we come?" I replied that I didn't see how he would be able to do that, since our phones weren't working. He also requested that we report future outages by email. I asked him, "Does YOUR email work without a telephone line?" *IDIOTS AT WORK* I was signing the receipt for my credit card purchase when the clerk noticed I had never signed my name on the back of the credit card. She informed me that she could not complete the transaction unless the card was signed. When I asked why, she explained that it was necessary to compare the signature I had just signed on the receipt. So I signed the credit card in front of her. She carefully compared the signature to the one I had just signed on the receipt. _As luck would have it_, they matched. *IDIOTS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD *I live in a semi rural area. We recently had a new neighbor call the local township administrative office to request the removal of the Deer Crossing sign on our road. The reason: "too many deer were being hit by cars" and he didn't want them to cross there anymore. *IDIOTS IN FOOD SERVICE* *My daughter went to a local Taco Bell and ordered a taco.** She asked the person behind the counter for minimal lettuce." He said he was sorry, but they only had iceberg.* *IDIOT SIGHTING* *I was at the airport, checking in at the gate when an airport employee asked, "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your knowledge?"** To which I replied, "If it was without my knowledge, how would I know?" He smiled knowingly and nodded, "That's why we ask." * *IDIOT SIGHTING **The stoplight on the corner buzzes when it's safe to cross the street. I was crossing with an intellectually challenged coworker of mine when she asked if I knew what the buzzer was for. I explained that it signals blind people when the light is red. Appalled, she responded, "What on earth are blind people doing driving?"* *IDIOT SIGHTING* *I work with an individual who plugged her power strip back into itself and for the life of her couldn't understand why her system would not turn on.* *IDIOT SIGHTING **When my husband and I arrived at an automobile dealership to pick up our car, we were told the keys had been locked in it. We went to the service department and found a mechanic working feverishly to unlock the driver's side door. As I watched from the passenger side, I instinctively tried the door handle and discovered that it was unlocked. "Hey," I announced to the technician, "It's open!" To which he replied, "I know - I already got that side." * From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Aug 19 01:52:02 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 11:52:02 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. References: <4123FDDA.90306@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00fc01c4858f$1f3e4a50$362c2dcb@homepc> Everitt Mickey wrote: > Evmick....in the wastes of New Mexico....where "killer dust > storms...and killer sun....and Killer...." > > "Against stupidity....the gods themselves contend in vain" > "For centuries engineers have been trying to foolproof technology > .....so far the fools are winning" Thanks for that Evmick in the wastes of New Mexico. I *feel* better having just read your "rant" (and I'm not being ironic). Don't feel too bad though about Mexico though the homo sapiens turkiens count is pretty high everwhere. All nations all peoples and all parties. Good health to you and try not to choke on turkey feathers. Regards, Brett Paatsch PS: Sorry folks for the erratic posts of late I'm wresting with tech issues and people issues and "biting off more than I can chew issues". Guess you could say I have "issues" :-) From dgc at cox.net Thu Aug 19 02:03:00 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:03:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] and the nano/holo fun goes on... In-Reply-To: <3948se$6b3803@mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> References: <3948se$6b3803@mxip08a.cluster1.charter.net> Message-ID: <41240A54.1070703@cox.net> duggerj1 at charter.net wrote: >Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>[Claimed a current cost of $1000/TB] >> >> > >Well, not quite so cheap as that. Having just bought 1000 GB of disk space in the last three months, I confidently state it costs a little more than $1000. Dan's estimate might prove right for a stationary set-up. > >As portable computers turn into wearables, and as cell phones do the same, we'll see demand for ever-larger portable storage. In particular, I suspect as medicine improves medical monitoring will become biotelemetry. This might increase demand for very reliable, compact and high-density data storage. If black-boxes serve well in vehicles, could they serve as well in biological systems? People, children, valuable animals, crops and their symbiotes, all might need data storage like this. As it grows cheaper, more applications turn economical. > > Portable storage is "temporary." You eventually get back to your home base, or to a place from which you can communicate with your base for "free." therefore, the cost for massive storage should be at a fixed location, not a portable location. I built a 1TB store at my house last year for <$1000. To evaluate the requirement for portable storage, you need to compute the average data rate for data accumulation times the amount of time you will be cut off from a "free" connection to your permanent store. note that the examples you cite have trivial data rates, <<10Kbps average, and therefore have inconsequential storage costs. The costs of the battery overwhelm the cost of a Flash ram at this rate. (10Kbps=36Mbps/hr=108MB/day, or <$20.) >>The only way I know to use this much disk at home is to store DVDs. >>Storing audio >>CDs hardly counts: my entire CD collection fits on <<300GB with lossless >>compression. >> >> > >You can see other ideas for this kind of storage space in Microsoft's MyLifeBits project. > >Video swallows disk space, and with wearable cameras one can very well have a personal Wayback Machine for one's own life. Today it is very easy to have a personal Wayback Machine for the Internet--just use wget as your default web browser. > >Unfortunately, the real problem with this volume of data storage is the user interface. Already a professional society of organizers exists for possessions. Any bets on how long before these branch out into organizing your digitized life, into ordering one's N-Bytes of data? I'll go even odds on 27 months, +/- 9 months. > >So how do you eventually handle this? Abandon the hierachical file system to mere googling? Hire a butler equal parts remembrance agent, OpenCyc, and ALICE to explain where you left what and why? Or do you build a memory palace in a gibsonian-style cyberspace to remind one's self of everything > > This is all very interesting, but the organization of the data has at most a minor impact on the size of the data, except to the extent that a sophisticated system can reduce the amount of storage. You need to run the numbers again. A 1Mbps continuous video is likely to be more than enough, after compression. 1Mbps is 3.6Gb/hr, or 3.6Gb*24hr*1B/8b=10.8GB per day. If you can get home once a day (where "home" == "free" access to home) then you only need 10.8 GB of portable store. Portable store is currently a LOT more expensive than non-portable, but that is not what we were discussing: your portable store is a temporary buffer. Continue to do the math: 10GB/day is 3650GB/yr, or 3.65TB/yr. That's $3650/yr at today's prices, but the prices is dropping at 50%/yr. (Yes, counterintuitivly, it's faster than Moore's Law.) That says that by the time you can get around to implementing a fully-documented life, the lifetime cost will be <$3,000. That's lifetime cost, not yearly cost. Of course, as your life becomes richer (due to augmented intelligence) you will need to increase the bit rate required to capture it, unless of course your data compression capabilities increase in proportion. Just for the heck of it, let's consider the cost of the portable store.: 10.8GB. Let's go for the expensive approach: flash. Looking at www.pricewatch.com, we see that flash (in the form of USB flashs drives) costs $100/GB, retail, quantity 1. So we can store 10.8GB for $1100, plus the rest of he cost of your wearable, and we can confidently expect this cost to come down by half every 18 months or better. Size of the buffer goes up with the acquisition bit rate, but it goes down with the "cost" of connectivity with home. A reasonable first approximation would be that the size will less than double each year and the cost per GB will be less than half/GB each year, so the yearly cost of temporary (protable, buffer) storage will decrease each year. Conclusion: for leading-edge geeks, a continuous life-record is already easily in economic reach. The current cost is primarily the system development cost, not the HW cost. >>You can store about 5 audio CDs with lossless compression (flac) in one >>GB, for a storage >>cost of $.20/CD. Storage cost for a DVD would be about $4.00, which is a >>small fraction >> >> > >Double these numbers for a back-up copy of valuable data. :) > > > I did :-) I'm keeping two live copies of my CD collection, one active, one backup. Ripping about 1000 CD's took a lot of time, and my time is valuable. It would have been cheaper to store the result onto DVD-RW, except that the time to do so was more expensive than doubling the amount of hard disk. Note that "double" is really a brute-force approach, based on laziness. I'm using a brute-force backup scheme. If I used RAID-5, I could get the same level of backup at a 25% increment instead of a 100% increment. From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Aug 19 02:07:41 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:07:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005501c48591$4f9c9330$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brian Lee > Maybe it's dream of towing horses or surviving a nuclear > holocost that's attracting all these SUV buyers. YES! You don't want to destroy the proletariat's dreams, do you? > All of the arguments except towing capacity apply equally to > a volvo or bmw awd wagan as to an SUV. BAL Hmmm, I don't know Brian. I would think living in an SUV would be easier duty than a Saab, and would be cheaper to fix. Furthermore the price of a well-used SUV is lower than Saab, Volvo or BMW in the US. I can see 20 yr old SUVs becoming the ride of choice for the under classes, or rather they already are. The underclasses also enjoy complete immunity to criticism. spike From dgc at cox.net Thu Aug 19 02:19:42 2004 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:19:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] evmick's idiot sightings In-Reply-To: <41240262.5020805@earthlink.net> References: <41240262.5020805@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <41240E3E.6000405@cox.net> Everitt Mickey wrote: > > > *IDIOTS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD > *I live in a semi rural area. We recently had a new neighbor call the > local township administrative office to request the removal of the > Deer Crossing sign on our road. The reason: > "too many deer were being hit by cars" > and he didn't want them to cross there anymore. > > ROTFLAMAO!!! PLEASE tell me that these are not personal idiot sightings!? In any case, they are hilarious. This particular one sounds like my neighborhood. From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 19 02:34:20 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:34:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: <1092882860.26349@whirlwind.he.net> BillK wrote: > > Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV > might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing > their drivers in increasing numbers. SUVs are in all likelihood killing people who made stupid choices, whether how they drive or in their choice of vehicles in which to drive. The problem is ultimately ignorance, not SUVs. SUVs are very safe *if used correctly*, and safer than any other vehicle under many conditions. Most of the drivers I see around here are soccer moms playing Pole Position on the freeway, completely oblivious to the parameters that were assumed in the design of the vehicle to make it off-road worthy and causing a market shift such that most SUVs now made are not actually off-road worthy to compensate for the poor driving of the people who buy them now. And even if they are off-road capable, most people do not have the slightest clue how to drive off-road. Owning an SUV no more makes you off-road ready than owning a computer makes you a software engineer, and the lack of even basic knowledge of this among suburban owners of SUVs explains 100% of all stranded "off-roaders" I've pulled out of the wilderness over the years. There is nothing inherently unsafe about SUVs, it is just that a larger percentage of the people who drive them now know nothing about how to drive them and so treat them like some type of indestructible car. In other words, an education problem. It is the same as how virtually all firearm accidents happen because some fool wasn't following the basic rules of firearm safety or didn't feel the need to learn them. If you give unfamiliar power tools to monkeys, bad things are bound to happen. j. andrew rogers From joe at barrera.org Thu Aug 19 02:53:35 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:53:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <1092882860.26349@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1092882860.26349@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <4124162F.9050803@barrera.org> J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > following the basic rules of firearm safety or didn't feel the need > to learn them. If you give unfamiliar power tools to monkeys, bad > things are bound to happen. Well, the problem is that someone ELSE gave these power tools to these monkeys, and I'm here driving to work in a Honda del Sol hoping some monkey doesn't plot a course over my body. In other words, *I'm* not the one handing out guns to ducks. (reference to old Kilban cartoon) - Joe From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Aug 19 03:13:33 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:13:33 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: <4123FDDA.90306@earthlink.net> References: <4123FDDA.90306@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Horray for Evmick!!!!!! :) Well said indeed. :) Thank you. Regards, MB On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Everitt Mickey wrote: > BillK apparently said. > > >Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV > > might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing > > their drivers in increasing numbers. > > You know?....this kind of non logic really ticks me off. > > Real extropians oughta know better. [...] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 03:13:03 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:13:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] evmicks idiot sightings Message-ID: <20040819031303.7202.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> up in northern NH is this fellow named Wild Billy Donovan. one night driving home a bit tipsy in the fog, he struck a moose with his pickup (aregular car woulda been fatal to the driver, so there). He called the sheriff to report the accident. Ivestigation folllowed, when he asked the sheriff if he could have the carcass. Sheriff says no, the moose herd is state property. So Bill hires himself alawyer and sues the state, because its herd animal was in the road after dark, crossing outside a crossing zone, not wearing a flourescent vest, and no indicator lights either. Billy won himself a new truck, and the state changed the law to let you keep your roadkill.... --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > Everitt Mickey wrote: > > > > > > > *IDIOTS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD > > *I live in a semi rural area. We recently had a new neighbor call the > > local township administrative office to request the removal of the > > Deer Crossing sign on our road. The reason: > > "too many deer were being hit by cars" > > and he didn't want them to cross there anymore. > > > > > ROTFLAMAO!!! > > PLEASE tell me that these are not personal idiot sightings!? In any > case, they are hilarious. This particular one sounds like my neighborhood. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Aug 19 03:12:31 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:12:31 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] "sensitive" war References: <000001c48292$3d723ef0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <013e01c4859a$5dea4af0$362c2dcb@homepc> Spike wrote: > I admit I am at a loss in this election. I see no real > differences in how the two front runners will handle > the war. [X] says he will fight a more sensitive war. But > all war is hell, there is no reforming it. Can't agree Spike. "Sensitive" doesn't necessarily mean weak and soppy. Though it might. It might mean using all the senses. The best warriors notice the subtle things. If they don't they aren't the best warriors. *Sometimes*, but not always, the use of soft weapons (like diplomacy) can save the lives of your own troops. Or if you don't care about your troups it can save you the cost of replacing your military consumables which you may need sometime to deploy when the soft weapons won't work. *Sometimes* its the warrior (the hawk that looks like the dove) who gets past the technology and the mindsets that are aimed at killing big fierce warriors. When that is the case the commander that uses his senses best, the one that is most "sensitive" will waste less of his troups, or whatever else he (or she) values. There was a scene in the movie Braveheart where Edward the Longshanks give an order to fire arrows into a mellee and his second in charge says "pardon me Sire, but won't we hit our own troups?" To which Longshanks replies "yes, but we will hit theirs too, and WE have reserves". An insensitive warrior (or commander) is one with lots of scars or unhappy troops or constituents, because they miss the easy wins. He or she wins (if they win) only having taken a suboptimal route given their own resources. Insensitity, even in war, will produce waste. And often the wars the commanders are fighting are not the wars the soldiers on either side think are being fought. Brett From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 03:48:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:48:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians dont drive SUVs Message-ID: <20040819034816.99973.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> nope, your a duc` --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > > following the basic rules of firearm safety or didn't feel the need > > to learn them. If you give unfamiliar power tools to monkeys, bad > > things are bound to happen. > > Well, the problem is that someone ELSE gave these power tools to > these monkeys, and I'm here driving to work in a Honda del Sol > hoping some monkey doesn't plot a course over my body. > > In other words, *I'm* not the one handing out guns to ducks. > (reference to old Kilban cartoon) > > - Joe > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From evmick at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 04:10:48 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 23:10:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41242848.3040701@earthlink.net> BillK wrote: > and fatalities in crashes involving large trucks on >the upswing. > > > Not according to the figures I"VE seen.....the reverse actually. Makes me wonder. To wit....in the last two or three years the annual fatalities involving motor vehickles have hit an all time low of less than 5,000 (five thousand) a year...of which several HUNDRED have involved big trucks. (so naturally...they make the laws applying to trucks more stringent.) Each year the figger gets less.. Some federal alphabet soupe agency..(FHMSA?).. figures.....I read it in a magazine...(Trucker's News)....don't have URL's for magazines.... I'm a trucker....I pay attention to these things. EvMick >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 19 04:55:05 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 21:55:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <4124162F.9050803@barrera.org> References: <1092882860.26349@whirlwind.he.net> <4124162F.9050803@barrera.org> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2004, at 7:53 PM, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >> following the basic rules of firearm safety or didn't feel the need >> to learn them. If you give unfamiliar power tools to monkeys, bad >> things are bound to happen. > > Well, the problem is that someone ELSE gave these power tools to > these monkeys, and I'm here driving to work in a Honda del Sol > hoping some monkey doesn't plot a course over my body. Yeah, well that's the problem: how do you distribute the damage. Because someone's ox is going to be gored no matter what, and it won't be equitable to some not insignificant group. You don't have any more right to drive a Honda del Sol than someone else has a right to drive a Chevy Suburban. You do have a right to file for criminal and civil charges no matter what they are driving, though that probably won't matter to you if you are dead. The fact of the matter is that the people got what the people tacitly voted for. As a general rule, you can't legislate against stupidity without exacting a worse toll than letting the stupidity running its course, in no small part because stupidity only pays attention to legislation part of the time. Nope, being on a planet covered in low-functioning chimps operating heavy machinery is a given of the system. Pick your armor and your weapons accordingly. Heavier and pricier sedans offer some of the best protection on the highway, whether you get hit by a Suburban or a Prius under normal road conditions, but saving money won't be a consideration. The primary safety argument for proper SUVs only comes into play in hazard conditions where the wheels no longer have controlled contact with a fully engineered road surface e.g. snow, gravel, or off-road, or where you are likely to occasionally run into or over things. (In some parts of the US, there are State highways that are gravel.) j. andrew rogers From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Aug 19 05:07:07 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:07:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <013e01c4859a$5dea4af0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Most would agree that there is a growing threat to western civilization of an attack by some sort of weapons of mass destruction: bio, gas or nuke. We are developing antimissile tech, but seems to me another parallel defense would be to encourage urban sprawl. An enormous smeared out suburbs would be far less vulnerable to attack than an enormous highly concentrated city, would it not? The argument is made that urban sprawl is bad for wildlife, but the alternative may encourage an attack which would be bad for both humans and wildlife. Perhaps cities have outlived their usefulness. spike From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 19 05:12:18 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:12:18 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com> References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: <57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Aug 17, 2004, at 4:04 PM, Matthew Gingell wrote: > I guess there might be a case that, in the long run, countries with > very lopsided income and wealth distributions eventually do better > for everyone than countries with a big middle class. I can't think of > an obvious historical argument though. Class mobility, a function of wealth rather than income, matters at least as much as the distribution, as this is what provides much of the motivation to dare great things. Very wealthy people contribute a lot to society by being able to risk very large sums of capital on things that interest them, including many things that the government will neither have the will nor the interest to fund regardless of merit. This money builds the companies and pays for the research that generates the majority of the technology we enjoy today. The engine of innovation is powered by private capital, and one thing history has shown is that in hindsight most government funded "innovations" were either unnecessary, expensive, or economically irrelevant. If you have nothing but a middle class, who provides the capital required to have a strong economy? The irony is that progressive income taxes destroy class mobility. j. andrew rogers From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 19 05:36:14 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:36:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Spike wrote: > Most would agree that there is a growing threat to > western civilization of an attack by some sort of > weapons of mass destruction: bio, gas or nuke. We > are developing antimissile tech, but seems to me > another parallel defense would be to encourage > urban sprawl. An enormous smeared out suburbs > would be far less vulnerable to attack than an > enormous highly concentrated city, would it not? > The argument is made that urban sprawl is bad for > wildlife, but the alternative may encourage an > attack which would be bad for both humans and > wildlife. Perhaps cities have outlived their > usefulness. The economic optimum would probably be something closer to clusters of dense "micro-cities" connected by very efficient transport networks. You could sweep huge amounts of suburbia into a very small footprint if you built vertically such that the density was more like Chicago. Separate each of these so that there is 3-5 miles between any two micro-cities, with farms, open space, and whatever else is needed in between. My back-of-the-envelope seems to indicate that this would work pretty well, at least in theory. I don't know that people would like living in high-rises though, and it would require some adjustment of economic assumptions. Much more environmentally friendly though. j. andrew rogers From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 05:42:48 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 15:12:48 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc04081822422a9eaf93@mail.gmail.com> Upload us all and store us in server farms deep underground, under miles of concrete. Yeah! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 22:36:14 -0700, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > On Aug 18, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Spike wrote: > > Most would agree that there is a growing threat to > > western civilization of an attack by some sort of > > weapons of mass destruction: bio, gas or nuke. We > > are developing antimissile tech, but seems to me > > another parallel defense would be to encourage > > urban sprawl. An enormous smeared out suburbs > > would be far less vulnerable to attack than an > > enormous highly concentrated city, would it not? > > The argument is made that urban sprawl is bad for > > wildlife, but the alternative may encourage an > > attack which would be bad for both humans and > > wildlife. Perhaps cities have outlived their > > usefulness. > > > The economic optimum would probably be something closer to clusters of > dense "micro-cities" connected by very efficient transport networks. > > You could sweep huge amounts of suburbia into a very small footprint if > you built vertically such that the density was more like Chicago. > Separate each of these so that there is 3-5 miles between any two > micro-cities, with farms, open space, and whatever else is needed in > between. My back-of-the-envelope seems to indicate that this would > work pretty well, at least in theory. I don't know that people would > like living in high-rises though, and it would require some adjustment > of economic assumptions. Much more environmentally friendly though. > > > j. andrew rogers > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From evmick at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 05:52:20 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 00:52:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] evolution of food In-Reply-To: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <002201c484ed$4a708460$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <41244014.5000301@earthlink.net> Vegatables is what food eats. EvMick From sentience at pobox.com Thu Aug 19 08:13:19 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 04:13:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04081822422a9eaf93@mail.gmail.com> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <710b78fc04081822422a9eaf93@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4124611F.9000403@pobox.com> Emlyn wrote: > Upload us all and store us in server farms deep underground, under > miles of concrete. Yeah! Rewrite all the matter in human space to run a common operating system with protected memory. Yeah! -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From scerir at libero.it Thu Aug 19 08:31:52 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:31:52 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. References: <4123FDDA.90306@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000601c485c6$fb151c20$c0be1b97@administxl09yj> > Evmick....in the wastes of New Mexico.... > where "killer dust storms...and killer sun...." Lucky you. Killer rocks here http://www.docushare.it/mediasoft/stradale/segnali/2132_0.jpg In Italy SUVs and SAVs (sport activity vehicle, I suppose, term invented by BMW) "kill" other people, i.e. people walking, people crossing the road, bikers. We use SUVs and SAVs just in town. Passion. Fashion. From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 13:29:21 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:29:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: I wasn't saying that it would be as comfortable in a 1990 saab hatchback as in a 1990 suburban, only that it's possible (I mean it's already got to be pretty bad to be living in a car right?). (BTW, a 1990 900 can be purchased for around 2k so they are dirt cheap). I think that if the underclasses start buying used SUVs because of their lower price, it will be because of SUV's perception as a "status car". Don't ask me why it got this way, but people are proud of driving SUVs like they used to be proud of BMWs or MBs. But the underclasses will be in for a shock as they discover that SUVs are expensive as well. The only one's that really hold together are a couple of Japanese models (Pathfinder, Pilot, etc) and 1) those are as statusy as the Explorere/Suburban and 2) they are more expensive than their domestic counterparts. BAL >From: "Spike" >To: "'ExI chat list'" >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:07:41 -0700 > > > Brian Lee > > > Maybe it's dream of towing horses or surviving a nuclear > > holocost that's attracting all these SUV buyers. > >YES! You don't want to destroy the proletariat's dreams, >do you? > > > All of the arguments except towing capacity apply equally to > > a volvo or bmw awd wagan as to an SUV. BAL > >Hmmm, I don't know Brian. I would think living in an >SUV would be easier duty than a Saab, and would be >cheaper to fix. Furthermore the price of a well-used >SUV is lower than Saab, Volvo or BMW in the US. I can >see 20 yr old SUVs becoming the ride of choice for the >under classes, or rather they already are. The >underclasses also enjoy complete immunity to criticism. > >spike > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dwish at indco.net Thu Aug 19 13:37:04 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:37:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: <000601c485c6$fb151c20$c0be1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <200408191244.i7JCiiS9012681@br549.indconet.com> Good sounds like more parking places for the rest of us.... You just need a good hug from John Kerry and you'll feel better... Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:32 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. > Evmick....in the wastes of New Mexico.... > where "killer dust storms...and killer sun...." Lucky you. Killer rocks here http://www.docushare.it/mediasoft/stradale/segnali/2132_0.jpg In Italy SUVs and SAVs (sport activity vehicle, I suppose, term invented by BMW) "kill" other people, i.e. people walking, people crossing the road, bikers. We use SUVs and SAVs just in town. Passion. Fashion. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dwish at indco.net Thu Aug 19 13:40:52 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 08:40:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Both Sides With John Kerry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200408191248.i7JCmVS9012868@br549.indconet.com> Both Sides With John Kerry Former Democratic front-runner Howard Dean recently criticized current Democratic front-runner John Kerry for taking the wrong positions (by Dean's lights) on both the liberation of Kuwait, which Kerry opposed, and the liberation of Iraq, which he supported. As we all know, Kerry has tried to have it both ways on Iraq, voting "yes" on the October 2002 resolution authorizing war, then proclaiming himself shocked that President Bush actually waged the war Congress authorized. It turns out Kerry was no less two-faced about Kuwait 13 years ago. The New Republic's blogger Noam Scheiber credits TNR intern Josh Benson with digging up an item that appeared in the magazine's March 25, 1991, issue, quoting a pair of letters Kerry wrote to constituent Wallace Carter of Newton Centre, Mass.: Jan. 22, 1991: "Thank you for contacting me to express your opposition . . . to the early use of military force by the US against Iraq. I share your concerns. On January 11, I voted in favor of a resolution that would have insisted that economic sanctions be given more time to work and against a resolution giving the president the immediate authority to go to war." Jan. 31, 1991: "Thank you very much for contacting me to express your support for the actions of President Bush in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. From the outset of the invasion, I have strongly and unequivocally supported President Bush's response to the crisis and the policy goals he has established with our military deployment in the Persian Gulf." Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************* "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 13:45:08 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 09:45:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. Message-ID: I'm not sure if this was a joke post or not. But I think that cars are tools, and choosing an improper, unsafe tool is non-optimal. I equte SUV-defending with fat people who talk about glandular problems while eating McDonalds. Of course fast food isn't necessarily the problem, but eating it every day is unwise. Just like SUVs have thier purposes, but no way should they equate for 25% of US auto sales. SUVs kill their drivers and passengers because they are more unsafe than comperable sedans. That's pretty simple analysis. I'm not advocating a ban on SUVs, but currently SUVs have several major tax incentives going for them. So effectively the gov't wants you to buy a dangerous, gas-guzzling SUV and my taxes subsidize SUVs. BAL >From: Everitt Mickey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 20:09:46 -0500 > >BillK apparently said. > >>Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV >>might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing >>their drivers in increasing numbers. > >You know?....this kind of non logic really ticks me off. > >Real extropians oughta know better. > >Since WHEN can an inantimate object display any type of violition? Do guns >kill people? Do trucks kill people? Does aspirin kill people? Does TV >kill people? Is it a great conspiricay of the inantimate to kill off >humans? NO....in actuality stupid people kill themselves (which in the >long run is a good thing)and others...(which is a bad thing) ....but by >ascribing this logic to their actions they are releived of >guilt...yeaa!...verily my brothers and cistern....gain martryr >status......holy victimhood.... and are free to go about killing more >people. > >Worse....this type of thinking gives the (can't think of a sufficiently >bad descriptive adjective....hearts?...no.....liberals?...No....<@#$%&*>....yeah...but inappropriate to >the venue) ......er......"people-who-know-what's-best-for-everyone-else" >ammunition so that they can make MORE AND More and more and more RULES. > >To my way of thinking this attitude is similar if not identical to that of >the Bad guys of 911 fame. After all THEY know god's will....they.... > >Etc. etc. etc....yammer yammer yammer..... > >This really gets my goat. onit.> > >Evmick....in the wastes of New Mexico....where "killer dust storms...and >killer sun....and Killer...." > >"Against stupidity....the gods themselves contend in vain" >"For centuries engineers have been trying to foolproof technology.....so >far the fools are winning" > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Aug 19 14:05:54 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:05:54 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] What does a Bear do in the Woods? Message-ID: <127090-22004841914554126@M2W096.mail2web.com> Drink beer! "It turns out the bear was a bit of a beer sophisticate. He tried a mass-market Busch beer, but switched to Rainier Beer, a local ale, and stuck with it for his drinking binge." http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/08/18/bear.beer.reut/index.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Aug 19 14:30:04 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 07:30:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Both Sides With John Kerry In-Reply-To: <200408191248.i7JCmVS9012868@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <008b01c485f9$05a4e4e0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Dustin Wish > > Both Sides With John Kerry > > Former Democratic front-runner Howard Dean recently criticized current > Democratic front-runner John Kerry for taking the wrong > positions... Dustin Wish Perhaps Howard Dean's fortunes will be revived. Another October surprise? You may recall he was deselected by the news media simply for screaming YEEAAAHHH into a microphone. I would think it permissible for a few YEEAAAHHHs to escape from a candidate during an election, should it not? spike From megao at sasktel.net Thu Aug 19 15:15:46 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 10:15:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense, and rural revitalization concept References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <4124C422.4221A026@sasktel.net> Actually from those of us in the Rural areas, that sounds wonderful. The sewer/water/hydro/gas infrastructure would be decentralized and that has some benefits. It boggles the mind how large metropolis's can avoid major catastrophe's with such massive infrastructure support systems to maintain. The only down side is physical transportation. Speaking from experience, we in Saskatchewan have about a million people scattered between 2 larger cities (200,000 each) , 10 smaller centers (10,000 each) and a mutitude of small halets scattered over a civilized space of 440 X 440 miles. We have a "Grid Road System" which has more miles of highway (rural average is a grid of roads spaced at 2 mile intervals) than any other canadian jurasdiction. In the booming 70's the roads were built and many covered with asphalt. Heavier traffic in the 80's and 90's have kept the paved ones in a permanent state of disrepair.. as they were never built to sustain the weight and speed of modern semi's , B-trains and such. Much of the rural rail system has been dismantled over the last 20 years as well. More people in each rual center might increase population from 1 to perhaps 10 million ideally, but the connecting road infrastructure would then have to be maintained to city rather than rural standards. I for one would see this population transferance as a wonderful thing. On the terrrism side it would make mass extinction next to impossible as it undoes 100 years of steady rural depopulation. Rural decentalized power generation from wind similar to the 4 Billion USD project Enron had planned for North Dakota our neighbouring USA state would then certainly come to pass. Distribution of liquid fuels to a decentalized network of hydrogen catalytic conversion stations would then be economically viable. The move from a centralized export based commodity economy to a "decentalized network of clusters" finished product manufacturing economy base for a centralized finished product export economy would be wonderful goal for the next 30 years out here. What has been severly lacking is the integration of , human willpower, economic drive and psychological positivity of attitude. We here in Saskatchewan are called by our neighbour provinces "The Gap". The saying goes , " Manitoba sucks and Alberta blows". So lets hope those terrorists keep scaring the bejeegers out of everybody. As the "motel 6" commercial goes "we'll keep the lights on". Pharmer Mo from LA North, Eh, ......AKA ...... Morris Johnson "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: > On Aug 18, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Spike wrote: > > Most would agree that there is a growing threat to > > western civilization of an attack by some sort of > > weapons of mass destruction: bio, gas or nuke. We > > are developing antimissile tech, but seems to me > > another parallel defense would be to encourage > > urban sprawl. An enormous smeared out suburbs > > would be far less vulnerable to attack than an > > enormous highly concentrated city, would it not? > > The argument is made that urban sprawl is bad for > > wildlife, but the alternative may encourage an > > attack which would be bad for both humans and > > wildlife. Perhaps cities have outlived their > > usefulness. > > The economic optimum would probably be something closer to clusters of > dense "micro-cities" connected by very efficient transport networks. > > You could sweep huge amounts of suburbia into a very small footprint if > you built vertically such that the density was more like Chicago. > Separate each of these so that there is 3-5 miles between any two > micro-cities, with farms, open space, and whatever else is needed in > between. My back-of-the-envelope seems to indicate that this would > work pretty well, at least in theory. I don't know that people would > like living in high-rises though, and it would require some adjustment > of economic assumptions. Much more environmentally friendly though. > > j. andrew rogers > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Thu Aug 19 16:28:37 2004 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (mail at HarveyNewstrom.com) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:28:37 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 11, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <200408191341.i7JDfB003645@tick.javien.com> References: <200408191341.i7JDfB003645@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <04Aug19.122838-0400_edt.311102-13468+15982@ams.ftl.affinity.com> Everitt Mickey wrote, > and the same mentality that brings Killer SUV's b rings.... Funny stuff. It's good to have you back. > *IDIOTS IN SERVICE* > "Would you like us to call you before we come?" > I replied that I didn't see how he would be able to do that, since our > phones weren't working. He also requested that we report future outages > by email. I asked him, > "Does YOUR email work without a telephone line?" This wouldn't be idiotic for me. I have a cell-phone and a cable-modem Internet connection. Both work fine while my home telephone is dead. Nor is it really idiotic that they can't schedule the time more precisely. They have no idea what is wrong or how long it will take for each call, so subsequent appointments cannot be scheduled. Trying to get a more exact time won't actually make it happen. > *IDIOTS AT WORK* > I was signing the receipt for my credit card purchase when the clerk > noticed I had never signed my name on the back of the credit card. She > informed me that she could not complete the transaction unless the card > was signed. When I asked why, she explained that it was necessary to > compare the signature I had just signed on the receipt. So I signed the > credit card in front of her. She carefully compared the signature to the > one I had just signed on the receipt. _As luck would have it_, > they matched. The flaw here is not that the clerk asked the patron to sign the card. This is proper procedure when encountering a blank card. The problem is that she then proceeded to process the cards normally, which does include comparing the signature on the receipt to the one on the card. What she should have done is use the alternate procedure for unsigned cards, which is to get the card signed and then compare it to the signature on a photo ID provided by the patron. VISA has very specific procedures for these cases at > *IDIOT SIGHTING* > *I was at the airport, checking in at the gate when an airport employee > asked, "Has anyone put anything in your baggage without your > knowledge?"** To which I replied, "If it was without my knowledge, how > would I know?" He smiled knowingly and nodded, "That's why we ask." * The Air Carrier Standard Security Program describes the security procedures that air carriers must follow. Although no longer required, there used to be two different questions that they were supposed to ask. The above question isn't one of them. They are supposed to ask if you packed your own bags and if the bags have been in your control at all times since you packed them. If so, you can confirm that no one has put anything in your bags without your knowledge. American Airlines paid fines in 2001 for not asking the appropriate questions. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 18:38:02 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:38:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: >From: "J. Andrew Rogers" >To: >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 19:34:20 -0700 > >BillK wrote: > > > > Why should we care whether in certain specific circumstances an SUV > > might be preferred? The road death figures show that SUVs are killing > > their drivers in increasing numbers. > > >The problem is ultimately ignorance, not SUVs. SUVs are very safe *if >used correctly*, ... >There is nothing inherently unsafe about SUVs, it is just that a larger >percentage of the people who drive them now know nothing about how to >drive them and so treat them like some type of indestructible car. In >other words, an education problem. It is the same as how virtually all >firearm accidents happen because some fool wasn't following the basic >rules of firearm safety or didn't feel the need to learn them. If you >give unfamiliar power tools to monkeys, bad things are bound to happen. >j. andrew rogers There are things inherently unsafe about many SUVs. They have a higher tendency to roll over (not just due to driver ignorance). They also make the road less safe for non-SUV owners by obstructing their view. So it is a little more than just "use wisely". If you take an excellent driver and have them drive a sedan and an SUV, they will have more roll-overs and be more unsafe in the SUV even though their driving skill is excellent. Sort of like handing a monkey a chainsaw and an axe. More injuries with a chainsaw than an axe (using the monkey's dexterity as the skill level). BAL From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:15:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: <000601c485c6$fb151c20$c0be1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20040819191518.39542.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > > Evmick....in the wastes of New Mexico.... > > where "killer dust storms...and killer sun...." > > Lucky you. Killer rocks here > http://www.docushare.it/mediasoft/stradale/segnali/2132_0.jpg > > In Italy SUVs and SAVs (sport activity vehicle, I suppose, > term invented by BMW) "kill" other people, i.e. people > walking, people crossing the road, bikers. We use SUVs > and SAVs just in town. Passion. Fashion. A conflation has occured though, in this duscussion. The stats say that more people are dying in accidents in which trucks and SUVs are involved. They don't say that those people are in the cars being struck by the trucks and SUVs, and as the truck/SUV population increases, more people are going to be hit by, or hit, trucks/SUVs. It says nothing about the relative danger of being IN a truck or SUV, and Bill, et al should recognise this important distinction. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 19:20:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:20:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040819192038.35711.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > > There are things inherently unsafe about many SUVs. They have a > higher tendency to roll over (not just due to driver ignorance). Wrong. A driver's unwise misestimation of the center of gravity and G tolerance of a vehicle in cornering, due to too many years driving low slung cars with different feel characteristics, is not the fault of the vehicle. Your assertion is as bad as claiming that guns kill people by jumping up and shooting them all by their selves. > They also make the > road less safe for non-SUV owners by obstructing their view. I am not responsible for YOUR choice of a short vehicle, any more than a train engineer is responsible for you being parked on the railroad tracks as he hits you. Stop copping out and take responsibility for your own choices and actions. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 19 19:56:20 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:56:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: <1092945380.3442@whirlwind.he.net> > There are things inherently unsafe about many SUVs. They have a higher > tendency to roll over (not just due to driver ignorance). They also make the > road less safe for non-SUV owners by obstructing their view. There are many things inherently unsafe about EVERY type of vehicle -- engineering is about trade-offs. To reverse your assertion above, small sedans are inherently less safe because they give poor visibility. All you are saying is that $VEHICLE is the safest of all vehicles iff the entire universe is engineered to be optimal for the design of $VEHICLE. Welcome to the real world. > So it is a little more than just "use wisely". If you take an excellent > driver and have them drive a sedan and an SUV, they will have more > roll-overs and be more unsafe in the SUV even though their driving skill is > excellent. You take your Prius on a gravel highway up in the mountains and I'll take the unused Bronco sitting in my driveway. The Prius is inherently less safe even if you never see another vehicle. Which would you rather be in if you hit a moose or cattle or got stuck in a rainstorm on that road? There is a hell of a lot more to safety than a moderately higher probability of rollovers, which are a tiny portion of the bigger calculus. For a skilled driver who understands the parameters of an SUV, a rollover is not a major concern. Of the rollovers I've seen around here (more than half of which were sedans), the SUVs generally appeared to be the aforementioned soccer moms that like to play Pole Position while yapping on the phone and putting on make-up. Their number was coming up anyway (in terms of having an accident), the choice of an SUV just helped parameterize the mode. j. andrew rogers From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:09:15 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:09:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. Message-ID: Actually, drivers and passengers of SUVs have more injuries. But that doesn't really matter does it? If more SUVs = more people outside of SUVs dying then that's still bad right? BAL >From: Mike Lorrey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:15:18 -0700 (PDT) > >--- scerir wrote: > > > > Evmick....in the wastes of New Mexico.... > > > where "killer dust storms...and killer sun...." > > > > Lucky you. Killer rocks here > > http://www.docushare.it/mediasoft/stradale/segnali/2132_0.jpg > > > > In Italy SUVs and SAVs (sport activity vehicle, I suppose, > > term invented by BMW) "kill" other people, i.e. people > > walking, people crossing the road, bikers. We use SUVs > > and SAVs just in town. Passion. Fashion. > >A conflation has occured though, in this duscussion. The stats say that >more people are dying in accidents in which trucks and SUVs are >involved. They don't say that those people are in the cars being struck >by the trucks and SUVs, and as the truck/SUV population increases, more >people are going to be hit by, or hit, trucks/SUVs. It says nothing >about the relative danger of being IN a truck or SUV, and Bill, et al >should recognise this important distinction. > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >_______________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Aug 19 20:14:53 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:14:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <1092945380.3442@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <20040819201453.23176.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: > You take your Prius on a gravel highway up in the > mountains and I'll > take the unused Bronco sitting in my driveway. The > Prius is inherently > less safe even if you never see another vehicle. > Which would you rather > be in if you hit a moose or cattle or got stuck in a > rainstorm on that road? Does Mount Hamilton Road/San Antonio Valley Road, in mid-California, count? (Also known as Route 130.) I took that from Del Puerto Canyon Road all the way past Mount Hamilton and Lick Observatory to San Jose (Alum Rock Avenue, at least) in my Prius. Rough and winding and at high speed (I think I averaged around 40; it felt safe enough once I got the hang of it at low speed), and I wouldn't dare do it in a high center of gravity SUV. Granted, it was (mostly) paved, and dry. And there wasn't any wildlife on the road (although there were a few other vehicles who passed me). But the low center of gravity was what kept me on the road. From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:34:36 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:34:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: <20040819191518.39542.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040819191518.39542.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:15:18 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > A conflation has occured though, in this duscussion. The stats say that > more people are dying in accidents in which trucks and SUVs are > involved. They don't say that those people are in the cars being struck > by the trucks and SUVs, and as the truck/SUV population increases, more > people are going to be hit by, or hit, trucks/SUVs. It says nothing > about the relative danger of being IN a truck or SUV, and Bill, et al > should recognise this important distinction. > No, Mike. The fatality statistics *are* analysed by type of vehicle. The 2003 stats mostly show reductions in deaths from 2002, because 2002 was a bit above the trend line. So it is not all bad news. The reduction in fatalities is probably linked to the increase in seat belt wearing that has been noted and the reduction in alcohol-related fatalities. Occupants killed in Motor Vehicle Crashes, by type of vehicle 2002 2003 Total Passenger vehicles 32,843 31,904 Cars 20,569 19,460 Vans 2,109 2,066 SUVs 4,031 4,446 Pickup Trucks 6,100 5,904 Large trucks 689 723 Other 469 510 Unknown 104 334 (Note the 10% increase in SUV occupants killed). Occupants killed in Rollover Crashes by type of vehicle 2002 2003 Passenger car 4,794 4,433 Van 699 724 SUV 2,471 2,639 Pickup truck 2,755 2,569 As there are about 3 to 4 times as many cars registered as SUVs and vans, then SUVs and vans do kill their occupants in rollovers far more than would be expected. The stats are actually incredibly detailed. See: BillK From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:07:16 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:07:16 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: Yes, of course it depends on the tires (and many other factors). My point is that SUVs without winter tires will perform just as poorly as sedans/wagons without winter tires. AWD drives, but there's nothing magical about an SUV that makes it perform better on ice. It is pretty funny watching Atlanta drivers freak out at the little snow and ice we get. Of course, if you can recover from laughing about people buying up all the bread and water at the grocery store. BAL >From: Mike Lorrey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2004 10:09:01 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > Considering demographics, the numbers of people who tow boats (or > > horses) is > > way lower than SUV purchases. > > > > I live in Atlanta and I see tons and tons of SUVs. It ices about once > > a year > > here and a good awd sedan will perform just as well as a hummer in > > those conditions. > >depends on the tires, of course. Hummers more likely to have useful >tires, the volvo is going to have some wimpy all seasons or rain tires, >which are pretty useless in the especially icy winter conditions seen >in the south. We northerners are always entertained by newsclips of >southerners in winter storms spinning all over the place... > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 19 20:43:22 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 13:43:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: <1092948202.19269@whirlwind.he.net> > Does Mount Hamilton Road/San Antonio Valley Road, in > mid-California, count? (Also known as Route 130.) I > took that from Del Puerto Canyon Road all the way > past Mount Hamilton and Lick Observatory to San Jose > (Alum Rock Avenue, at least) in my Prius. Rough and > winding and at high speed (I think I averaged around > 40; it felt safe enough once I got the hang of it at > low speed), and I wouldn't dare do it in a high > center of gravity SUV. Ummm... SUVs don't spontaneously rollover under normal road conditions, they are only more likely to roll over under certain adverse circumstances. Just like guns don't spontaneously shoot people. Other than being very windy, the road in question is quite tame and easy to drive safely. I've even taken the previously mentioned Bronco up it a few times, which has a true off-road suspension system making it even more susceptible to rollover, and did not have any problems. Definitely not ideal, but perfectly safe if I don't try to keep up with every low-CG sedan that flies by. Obviously I would take that road slower in a Bronco than an expensive sports sedan because that is smart -- I am familiar with the operating parameters of both vehicles. Just like I would drive the sport sedan slower than the 4x4 on gravel or in the snow. Ignorance is no excuse under the laws of physics. j. andrew rogers From pharos at gmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:45:04 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:45:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: References: <20040819191518.39542.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Try again, formatting screwed up in previous post. Occupants killed in Motor Vehicle Crashes, by type of vehicle 2002 2003 Total Passenger vehicles 32,843 31,904 Cars 20,569 19,460 Vans 2,109 2,066 SUVs 4,031 4,446 Pickup Trucks 6,100 5,904 Large trucks 689 723 Other 469 510 Unknown 104 334 (Note the 10% increase in SUV occupants killed). Occupants killed in Rollover Crashes by type of vehicle 2002 2003 Passenger car 4,794 4,433 Van 699 724 SUV 2,471 2,639 Pickup truck 2,755 2,569 As there are about 3 to 4 times as many cars registered as SUVs and vans, then SUVs and vans do kill their occupants in rollovers far more than would be expected. The stats are actually incredibly detailed. See: BillK From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 20:51:36 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:51:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: If you stand in front of me, are you responsible for obstructing my view? Should I move to accomodate your actions? Take responsibility for blocking my view. Rollovers aren't always the driver's fault, side impacts for example can happen to the most skillful driver (who is not able to maneuver as well in an SUV) and the SUV can flip. Not to mention, the Fed subsidizing small business purchase of SUVs or their greater consumption of road surface. Stop being an SUV-apologist. BAL >From: Mike Lorrey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 12:20:38 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Brian Lee wrote: > > > > There are things inherently unsafe about many SUVs. They have a > > higher tendency to roll over (not just due to driver ignorance). > >Wrong. A driver's unwise misestimation of the center of gravity and G >tolerance of a vehicle in cornering, due to too many years driving low >slung cars with different feel characteristics, is not the fault of the >vehicle. Your assertion is as bad as claiming that guns kill people by >jumping up and shooting them all by their selves. > > > They also make the > > road less safe for non-SUV owners by obstructing their view. > >I am not responsible for YOUR choice of a short vehicle, any more than >a train engineer is responsible for you being parked on the railroad >tracks as he hits you. > >Stop copping out and take responsibility for your own choices and actions. > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >_______________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Aug 19 21:05:48 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:05:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle Message-ID: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> Let us put this topic another way, because some of the perspectives being applied are far too narrow: Should we ban or penalize sedan drivers because they are a clear asymmetric hazard to motorcyclists? Most cars never have more than one person in them and are typically used just to move between two points, so why not a motorcycle, which gets better gas mileage to boot? I see idiots in sedans nearly run into motorcyclists all the time, acting like they own the road. And a motorcyle can take a corner at speeds that would roll a car. We could clearly do with having far fewer cars on the road and more motorcycles, and imagine all the parking space that would free up. This is no more or less specious an argument than much of the SUV versus sedan argument. You can relabel "SUV" to "sedan" and "sedan" to "motorcycle", and essentially apply the same arguments with similar validity. Hopefully this makes the real calculus more apparent; most people seem to be arguing from personal preference or ideology rather than addressing the underlying calculus of personal transportation choices. j. andrew rogers From matus at matus1976.com Thu Aug 19 21:37:23 2004 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:37:23 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006a01c48634$b9f37ca0$6501a8c0@GREYBOOK> Brian Lee said: > > Just like SUVs have thier purposes, but no way should they equate for 25% > of > US auto sales. SUVs kill their drivers and passengers because they are > more > unsafe than comperable sedans. That's pretty simple analysis. > But they are more safe if they are used properly, that's the sad thing. Simply having more metal around and a more massive vehicle makes one safer in an accident. If the tracks were just widened a bit and the CoG lowered, and a rudimentary change to the front end geometry made, lowering the bumper, SUV's would be safer all around. Mike Lorrey said: > The stats say that more people are dying in accidents in which trucks and > SUVs are involved. They don't say that those people are in the cars being > struck by the trucks and SUVs, <...> It says nothing > about the relative danger of being IN a truck or SUV, and Bill, et al > should recognise this important distinction. Indeed, the occupant is safer in an SUV, especially if he drives properly. Which is why, as an extropian who is concerned about living a long time, Id like to get a tractor trailer cab (cab only) and drive around properly in that, given the most likely way I will die is in a car accident. Extropians concerned about living as long as possible should get big vehicles, wear their seat belts, and drive slower. A recent issue of Motorcycle Consumer News argued (convincingly imo) that the sharp increase recently in Motorcyclist fatalities in the US has corresponded almost directly with the increase in light truck registrations. Even though the number of accidents are going down with motorcyclists, the accidents are more deadly. This becomes more clear when considering that most vehicles other than light trucks have lower bumpers and hit motorcyclists at their legs as the primary point of impact. SUV's are much higher and might hit a rider at his chest or shoulder level, some of the larger SUVs are even at head level to people hunched over on sport bikes. So motorcyclists on the list (spike et al) beware, imagine all those SUV's about as huge danger zones. Michael Dickey From matus at matus1976.com Thu Aug 19 21:45:35 2004 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 17:45:35 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006b01c48635$df420110$6501a8c0@GREYBOOK> > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brian Lee > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. > > Actually, drivers and passengers of SUVs have more injuries. But that > doesn't really matter does it? If more SUVs = more people outside of SUVs > dying then that's still bad right? > > BAL > Of course its bad, but it comes down to a fundamental issue of rights. I see many parallels to the gun debate, which usually centers around if everybody is more or less safe when guns are more prevalent. I don't care, I care if *I* am more or less safe. Am I more or less safe if I carry a gun? (not trying to start another gun debate, just trying to make a point) Am I more or less safe in an SUV compared to a Honda Civic? Even if on average fewer people are killed if all SUV's were outlawed, if I, as an individual, who drives properly, doesn't drink, and wears his seatbelt, is made less safe by such laws then they are fundamentally wrong. The right of the minority (those made more safe by driving SUV's) are not to be abandoned to the ignorance of the majority (morons who cant drive vehicles with higher CoG's) Michael Dickey From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 19 21:54:29 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 14:54:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle In-Reply-To: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <20040819215429.3557.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com> > Should we ban or penalize sedan drivers because they > are a clear > asymmetric hazard to motorcyclists? Most cars never > have more than one > person in them and are typically used just to move > between two points, > so why not a motorcycle, which gets better gas > mileage to boot? I see > idiots in sedans nearly run into motorcyclists all > the time, acting like > they own the road. And a motorcyle can take a > corner at speeds that > would roll a car. We could clearly do with having > far fewer cars on the > road and more motorcycles, and imagine all the > parking space that would > free up. I ride a motorcycle and sedans are far less hazardous to us than SUVs. I have a sedan, but I only use it if I need to carry cargo or carry multiple people. When I am just commuting, I ride my bike. And incidently the only accident that I have ever been in on my motorcycle was with a guy who was driving an SUV. He didn't see me because he had too much steel around him to be concerned about what or who he hit. Yes... motorcyclist and SUV drivers are natural enemies. Having to share the road with them takes away many of the advantages of riding a motorcycle. People sit fairly high on a motorcycle allowing us to see over sedans in front of us, unfortunately we can't see over the really big SUVs. Motorcycles can legally share lanes with vehicles in California meaning we can get around gridlock by moving between vehicles. The really big SUVs take up the whole lane and thus prevent lane sharing with them. I would say that SUV's and the people who drive them are as diametrically opposed to me, my motorcycle, and all that we stand for that one can get and still be deserving of oxygen. ;) ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Aug 19 23:26:12 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:26:12 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> > Hopefully this makes the real calculus more apparent; most > people seem to be arguing from personal preference or ideology > rather than addressing the underlying calculus of personal > transportation choices. Most people are naturally going to be biased of course but I am not clear what you mean by "underlying calculus of personal choice". Obviously roads are shared spaces not private spaces and if one chooses to drive on them with any vehicle then one chooses to venture out and to take risks in a world of other drivers. So far that's just another instance of being alive and living in nature with other animals. Clearly people choose a variety of vehicles for a variety of reasons (function, enjoyment, their own safety) and most would agree (I think) that they ought not be constrained by laws from exercising any choices that harm or increase the risk to no one else and (I think) they should be permitted choices that harm themselves if they want to trade-off enjoyment or their own safety for their own reasons thats entirely their business and good luck to 'em. But IF there are statistics that show that some peoples choices actually ARE increasing the overall risk on public roads to people other than themselves, then what could be the possible grounds for either making or declining to make laws aimed at shifting the hazard away from that class of road users who are being placed at increased risk through no fault of their own? I think there may be some folk that don't want any laws at all even ones that were based on good statistics and sound public policy - this seems irrational to me. Obviously we all have private interests, preferences, sunk costs in particular vehicles etc that are going to bias us - thats a given. But still a public road is something that is constructed as part of a public policy which requires some sort of legal framework to make it work. If we think only in terms of someones ox will always get gored then it seems that we are denying our personal opportunity to influence what public policy gets formed. That seems to me to be a stance that works against the person that holds its own self interest. If there has to be some public policy and some minimal set of laws or rules to make it work then what could be wrong with considering what that public policy (what those laws) should be? Have some "libertarians" become so anti-law that they are actually settling for less net freedom than they'd get if they argued for good statistics (or good science) and good public policy? Brett Paatsch From evmick at earthlink.net Fri Aug 20 02:27:10 2004 From: evmick at earthlink.net (Everitt Mickey) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:27:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: <006a01c48634$b9f37ca0$6501a8c0@GREYBOOK> References: <006a01c48634$b9f37ca0$6501a8c0@GREYBOOK> Message-ID: <4125617E.5040601@earthlink.net> Matus wrote: Which is why, as an extropian who is concerned about living a long time, Id like to get a tractor trailer cab (cab only) and drive around properly in that, hmmmmmmm...actually "bobtail" is more dangerous....harder to control...doesn't stop so well...tends to spin. That's what I do. Only I have the whole shebang. Tractor and trailer. Gross weight sometimes as much as 150,000 lbs. I drive slower and careful...and pay attention to my surroundings....AND i'm subject to ungodly addittional laws that would drive most people nutz. But strangely enough....I feel much safer driving thru ....say.....Dallas...Houston....or any metro area...than in perhaps a honda or a geo. If....(big if...I don't own one...but the wife has a Pickup)...i ever get an auto I'm thinking of a Hummer II. If I had my druthers it'd be a Motorhome based on a semi as the "mothership" pulling or carrying said hummer. But that's another story.. EvMick (finally leaving the wastes of NewMexico and west Texas bound....stopped in El Paso for supper) From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Aug 20 04:34:00 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 21:34:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle In-Reply-To: <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <2830E16C-F262-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Aug 19, 2004, at 4:26 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > But IF there are statistics that show that some peoples choices > actually ARE increasing the overall risk on public roads to people > other than themselves, then what could be the possible grounds > for either making or declining to make laws aimed at shifting the > hazard away from that class of road users who are being placed > at increased risk through no fault of their own? ... > I think there may be some folk that don't want any laws at all > even ones that were based on good statistics and sound public > policy - this seems irrational to me. You are trying to address the symptoms and ignoring the cause. The vast majority of all accidents are caused by people being careless and/or stupid. The choice of vehicle may affect the damage pattern, but it wasn't the choice of vehicle that caused the damage to happen. You can take away the person's SUV and give them a Prius and you won't be stopping any accidents, you'll just have a different kind of carnage with a different distribution. There are many different dimensions to the problem, which you still haven't figured out. If all vehicles on the road were identical, it would more evenly distribute the carnage, something you apparently champion. If you maximized the utility of a vehicle for a given person, you would expect a widely varying range of vehicles on the road even if you leave personal taste out of the picture, and suboptimal utility is often unsafe as you get closer to the edges. Most drivers only have competence at driving specific types of vehicles, and in a significant number of cases, no vehicles. The typical road hazards a person faces and their probabilities varies widely from locale to locale. Vehicle cost is another major factor, since increased safety comes at increasing cost and diminishing returns. What you want to do is optimize the entire driving world to maximize YOUR utility to the detriment of everyone else. For a big portion of the world, whatever you want to drive is less safe, less useful, and more expensive overall. In short, you are being authoritarian and selfish. Selfish is okay, but you can cram the authoritarian part. I'm not going to sacrifice substantial safety and utility in my life so that you can have an extremely marginal increase in your safety when you choose to drive on the roads just because it makes you feel better. The universe doesn't revolve around your desires. If you want to live in a padded room your whole life, go right ahead. The rest of us will continue doing things, recognizing that every increase in utility comes with a risk. Sometimes the increase in utility is worth the risk, sometimes it is not, but who are you to decide whether or not that is the case. If you don't like the risks of driving, don't drive. Most people find the utility worth the risks whether there are SUVs on the road or not. j. andrew rogers From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 04:43:14 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 14:13:14 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Numberless Tribe Proves the Unthinkable Message-ID: <710b78fc04081921434c2762df@mail.gmail.com> Numberless Tribe Proves the Unthinkable http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.aspx?articleID=2004-08-19-3 Unable to count, group without precise number system shows how language limits thought This is an interesting defense of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. However, it seems flawed to me. What the study in the article shows is that people who have never invented basic mathematics (discovered?), wont be able to perform basic mathematical procedures, and also wont have language to describe these procedures. So it would follow to me that these people could probably learn basic maths (if they cared to, which they probably don't), and would co-opt foreign words to describe new concepts, or make some up, or a bit of both. However, the article proclaims that, because these guys don't have basic math or the language for it, that the lack of language causes the inability to use basic math. Isn't this a clear cut case of conflating correlation with causation? Note that the original (weak) statement of Sapir-Whorf is pretty much self evident and I'm not arguing with that. But the article implies that this supports *strong* SWH, which is something else entirely! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 20 05:21:29 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:21:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <20040819201453.23176.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c48675$8e684430$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Granted, it was (mostly) paved, and dry. And there > wasn't any wildlife on the road (although there were a > few other vehicles who passed me). But the low center > of gravity was what kept me on the road. Please forgive the vast departure from the subject, but this comment reminded me of an amusing incident that happened at work (I am easily amused). We had a manlift, which is like a cherry picker device for reaching stuff up high: http://www.aerialsales.com/ We were extending it to wacky angles with the basket cantilevered way out there. I couldn't figure out why the topple alarm wasn't howling: my back of the envelope calcs showed the CG must be right at the front wheels. I was baffled until I learned that the tires are filled with lead shot. A single digit precision calc suggested the wheels weighed over 600 pounds each, moving the GC well inside the safety zone. We should be able to pull off some excellent gags or illusions with a car in which the four wheels weigh more than the rest of the car. Ideas? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 20 05:22:00 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:22:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <20040819201453.23176.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101c48675$9f24c820$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brian Lee > > ...SUVs or their greater consumption of road surface. Thats a positive result Brian. If more people drive big cars, it encourages governments to build roads wider. In the next 20 to 50 yrs the world will progress to all renewable energy sources, which will be more expensive than the fossil fuels we now pump outta the ground, so you can be sure cars will be smaller, lighter and probably slower. Then we will enjoy the legacy of good wide roads, on which we drive our smirkmobiles with lots of luxurious room everywhere. Parking lots will hold buttloads of small cars. We will have great stories to tell our grandchildren about how much fun cars use to be, that sorta thing. So we get some good stuff along with the drawbacks. {8-] spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Aug 20 05:22:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:22:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: <20040819201453.23176.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000201c48675$b19f01a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Matus: > ...the sharp increase recently in Motorcyclist fatalities in the US has corresponded almost directly with the increase in light truck registrations... Ja but be careful with the conclusion that the trucks are the cause of the increase in biker deaths. One can show a very high correllation coefficient between biker deaths and light truck registrations, but that does not prove a cause/effect. A better correlation is seen between biker deaths and the increasing average age of bikers. Clearly motorcycling has become far more mainstream, moving out of the exclusively young male crowd it once was. This gets us several different ways. An older biker is more likely to perish in the same accident that a young squid will survive. As we age, our reflexes get slower. If we do not compensate by riding easier, we are more likely to perish in a single vehicle accident, which accounts for most of the recent increase in biker deaths. We also have more guys (and gals) taking up biking in their later years. You can be sure one will *never* be as good a rider and the kid who grew up on them. My *mother* for instance, recently got a motorcycle, at age 62 fer cryin out loud. I was appalled of course, and feel partially responsible. I took her to an antique motorcycle gathering where she met a number of people so much like herself: retired adventurous types. I would prefer she wouldn't ride, but she didn't stop me from doing so 33 years ago. She also gave me bad advice as a child: always wear clean underwear, so that if you get in an accident and the medics cut away your clothing, it will not be an embarrassment. Terrible advice for bikers. Always wear your rattiest old dirty underwear, or if you are a macho straight male, wear frilly pink lacy undergarments. Then when you are tempted to go too fast, remember that even a minor accident could be fatal, for you would die of sheer embarrassment if the nurses saw you in that. So underwear can be a safety item. > So motorcyclists on the list (spike et al) beware, imagine all those > SUV's about as huge danger zones. Michael Dickey Ja that is an issue, but Ill tell you what scares me even more: the increase in elderly car drivers. Nothing makes me squirm like coming up to an intersection where the other road has a stop sign and I see a puffy white head looking the other way. Did she already look my direction and decide there is nothing coming? Will she dart out and slay me the instant I reach the intersection? Which way will I toss this bike if she pulls out? As luck would have it, the silicon valley is not well suited for retirees; they move away. But riding a motorcycle in my home town in Florida can cause one to soil one's lacy pink undergarments. spike From gingell at gnat.com Fri Aug 20 06:02:45 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 02:02:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com> <57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <16677.37893.404416.998067@nile.gnat.com> J. Andrew Rogers writes: > Class mobility, a function of wealth rather than income, matters at > least as much as the distribution, as this is what provides much of the > motivation to dare great things. Social mobility is a function of the ease with which individuals can accumulate wealth - it's the integral of net income with respect to time, plus or minus a constant for what an individual starts off with. We can look at income distribution in terms of how many people have been able to achieve great things, that is take it as the end point of the analysis rather than the initial condition. How many opportunities for advancements exist on various points on the distribution: Do we have a society in which most people find it possible to improve their lot somewhat, or do we have a winner-take-all society in which enormous rewards accrue to a few? If nothing else, I think it should be pretty clear that our extremely steep income distribution curve suggests something peculiar is going on with our allocation of human capital. > Very wealthy people contribute a lot to society by being able to > risk very large sums of capital on things that interest them, > including many things that the government will neither have the > will nor the interest to fund regardless of merit. This money > builds the companies and pays for the research that generates the > majority of the technology we enjoy today. A wealthy society with a healthy economy will find useful ways to employ its wealth, regardless of how it's distributed. My pension fund is every bit as interested in a diverse portfolio of risk / reward tradeoffs as is the Rockefeller family fortune. > The engine of innovation is powered by private capital, and one > thing history has shown is that in hindsight most government funded > "innovations" were either unnecessary, expensive, or economically > irrelevant. I don't see how this assertion relates to the rest of your argument, but it's true as far as it goes. (With lots of qualifiers for the provision of public goods, funding activities with positive externalities, etc.) > If you have nothing but a middle class, who provides the capital > required to have a strong economy? The market provides the capital. In any economy wealth is going to seek a return, and the banking system and financial markets will find ways to offer it. That's true whether "wealth" is million checking accounts or a single trust fund. > The irony is that progressive income taxes destroy class mobility. It would indeed be ironic if it were true, but it's difficult to make a sensible case that it is. Matt From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 20 07:18:35 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:18:35 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net><027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <2830E16C-F262-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <000901c48685$e87d13a0$362c2dcb@homepc> > On Aug 19, 2004, at 4:26 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > But IF there are statistics that show that some peoples choices > > actually ARE increasing the overall risk on public roads to people > > other than themselves, then what could be the possible grounds > > for either making or declining to make laws aimed at shifting the > > hazard away from that class of road users who are being placed > > at increased risk through no fault of their own? > ... > > I think there may be some folk that don't want any laws at all > > even ones that were based on good statistics and sound public > > policy - this seems irrational to me. > > You are trying to address the symptoms and ignoring the cause. The > vast majority of all accidents are caused by people being careless > and/or stupid. I am not championing ignorance, carelessness or stupidity. I am on the contrary recognizing that there are other species of these. >The choice of vehicle may affect the damage pattern, > but it wasn't the choice of vehicle that caused the damage to happen. > You can take away the person's SUV and give them a Prius and you won't > be stopping any accidents, you'll just have a different kind of carnage > with a different distribution. Your still missing my point (perhaps I wasn't clear) the existence of good statistics, good data, is something that intelligent but not stupid people will take account of. It is one difference between scientific and anecdotal evidence. And the willingness to integrate scientific rather than anecdotal evidence into our thinking and to try to form policy based on it and to use it to pursuade others to base their policy on it is the opposite of stupid. > There are many different dimensions to the problem, which you still > haven't figured out. If all vehicles on the road were identical, it > would more evenly distribute the carnage, something you apparently > champion. No. I "champion" looking to see if the amount of carnage (however it is defined) can be REDUCED rather than distributed. If it can't be reduced then I am all for distributing it away from me personally (that is selfish) and towards the damn fools that are causing the dangers to others (that is my selfish public policy I would prefer to actively discriminate against stupidity rather than let the chips fall where they may). I think not looking at the statistical data (if there is data available) is another species of stupid. It seems like you are missing that point. >If you maximized the utility of a vehicle for a given > person, you would expect a widely varying range of vehicles on the road > even if you leave personal taste out of the picture, and suboptimal > utility is often unsafe as you get closer to the edges. Most drivers > only have competence at driving specific types of vehicles, and in a > significant number of cases, no vehicles. The typical road hazards a > person faces and their probabilities varies widely from locale to > locale. Vehicle cost is another major factor, since increased safety > comes at increasing cost and diminishing returns. > > What you want to do is optimize the entire driving world to maximize > YOUR utility to the detriment of everyone else. Of COURSE I'd want that. Wouldn't you? And of course neither of us will get what we want. We'd be but two views only. But that is merely the starting point for a deeper recognition. If I want to optimise for me and you want to optimise for you and so on ... then so long as we are all rational none of us will object to getting rid of inefficencies and risks that we've been inadvertly posing to each other at no net gain to ourselves. Bugger the oxes will get gored anyway stuff. Neither of us are driving teams of oxen. The sentiment it expresses as well as the content of the analogy is out of date, or should be. > For a big portion of the world, whatever you want to drive is less > safe, less useful, and more expensive overall. > > In short, you are being authoritarian and selfish. Selfish is okay, > but you can cram the authoritarian part. I'd agree with that sentiment but you are misdirecting it :-) > I'm not going to sacrifice substantial safety and utility in my life so that > you can have an extremely marginal increase in your safety when you > choose to drive on the roads just because it makes you feel better. > The universe doesn't revolve around your desires. Obviously. Nor yours. Just as obviously. But with intelligence and a willingness to look at data we can reduce net risks without offsetting loss of other goods. I'm arguing for better risk MANAGEMENT by more involvement in public policy and law-making by those that are intelligent and self interested. Coz if they don't get involved the laws will be made by the unintelligently self interested. How would I tell which you were? I'd tell in part by seeing if you could differentiate between anecdotal evidence and good statistics. I think we are talking past each other ;-) Brett Paatsch From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Aug 20 07:28:53 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:28:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <16677.37893.404416.998067@nile.gnat.com> References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com> <57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <16677.37893.404416.998067@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: <96EFE3AA-F27A-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Aug 19, 2004, at 11:02 PM, Matthew Gingell wrote: >> If you have nothing but a middle class, who provides the capital >> required to have a strong economy? > > The market provides the capital. In any economy wealth is going to > seek a return, and the banking system and financial markets will find > ways to offer it. That's true whether "wealth" is million checking > accounts or a single trust fund. I would define any person who can command vast quantities of capital, whether from a few wealthy sources or millions of middle-class folks, as "wealthy". This was the basic scheme of the old communist bloc, where no one had much in the way of income, but a few folks near the top of the political food chain controlled millions or billions of dollars. Wealth mostly has to do with the amount of capital you control, whether millions of peasants gave it to you or a trust fund did. My original point was more that you can't have vast quantities of capital under the control of a small number of people without also having a de facto "wealthy" class. There are a dozen different creative ways to dress it up, but the result is roughly equivalent. All that happens when everyone is nominally in the middle-class is that the pool of the wealthy (no matter what its guise) becomes very, very small which is not a fertile economic ecology. And yes, progressive income taxes destroy class mobility by making it difficult to escape the middle class. There were a few economics papers published several years ago that showed a lovely mathematical correlation between effective income tax rates as a function of income and the distribution of wealth in a population. Steeply progressive rates concentrate control of capital in the hands of a few. How making it progressively difficult to convert income into wealth is supposed to help class mobility is beyond me. If the tax structure aggressively limits the conversion of income into wealth, exactly how is that supposed to help people in the lower economic strata that have income but little or no wealth? j. andrew rogers From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Aug 20 07:49:17 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 00:49:17 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle In-Reply-To: <000901c48685$e87d13a0$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net><027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <2830E16C-F262-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <000901c48685$e87d13a0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <6FF415E7-F27D-11D8-A551-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Aug 20, 2004, at 12:18 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > I think not looking > at the statistical data (if there is data available) is another > species of > stupid. It seems like you are missing that point. I'm not missing that at all. What is apparent is that the statistics you are referring to have little to no relevance to what makes good policy. You are reading all manner of causation from a correlation, and in a fashion that patently ignores known causal factors that *are* relevant to the discussion. Those statistics are fine, but shrewd analysis suggests they are almost context free and bring little to the policy table beyond providing a prop for use and abuse by and on a statistically innumerate population. They tell us very little about the nature of the problem, and don't even necessarily suggest that a serious problem exists. When people haven't even figured this much out, it pretty much guarantees bad policy will result. I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm saying that it is patently obvious that hardly anyone understands the nature of the matter enough to be able to know if a problem even exists, which doesn't justify trying to skate by on shallow reasoning. j. andrew rogers From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 20 08:03:33 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:03:33 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net><027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc><2830E16C-F262-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com><000901c48685$e87d13a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <6FF415E7-F27D-11D8-A551-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <004601c4868c$304bbd70$362c2dcb@homepc> J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > On Aug 20, 2004, at 12:18 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > I think not looking > > at the statistical data (if there is data available) is another > > species of > > stupid. It seems like you are missing that point. > I'm not missing that at all. What is apparent is that the statistics > you are referring to have little to no relevance to what makes good > policy. You are reading all manner of causation from a correlation, > and in a fashion that patently ignores known causal factors that *are* > relevant to the discussion. Ah, I see what's happened. I wasn't referring to any particular statistics - I think it was Bill who provided some and so perhaps you thought I was saying that those should be authoritative. I wasn't. I was saying only IF (and I did put IF in capitals) good stats were available they should be looked at (by looked at I mean critically looked at). > Those statistics are fine, but shrewd analysis suggests they are almost > context free and bring little to the policy table beyond providing a > prop for use and abuse by and on a statistically innumerate population. We are apparently in agreement then but are focussing on different aspects of the same thing. Stupidity. I want to take the anti-stupidity campaign into the policy setting and law-making machinery generally so I am averse to having government and law-making looked at as though they can't be affected. You, not unreasonably, were pursing a line more closely matching just what is in the topic header. My bad, actually. I should have forked the thread. Brett Paatsch From pharos at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 08:07:47 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:07:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle In-Reply-To: <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:26:12 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > But still a public road is something that is constructed as part of > a public policy which requires some sort of legal framework to > make it work. > > If there has to be some public policy and some minimal set of laws > or rules to make it work then what could be wrong with considering > what that public policy (what those laws) should be? > This point raised by Brett seems to be getting at the root of the discussion. The SUV supporters seem to be assigning a greater value to their individual rights than to the good of the public at large (the commons). This is the traditional contradiction between individual rights and social responsibility. One solution might be to move all the SUVs to New Hampshire. ;) Here in London, UK, we have the story of the Diana Memorial Fountain in Hyde Park. It is a large circular granite construction with water flowing round over little waterfalls and pools. Now what would you expect to happen when people play around slippery, wet granite, with water flowing around? Yes, people fall over. And the water gets polluted by dogs, pigeons, etc. There was panic among the administrators. Nowadays if anyone falls over they immediately think about suing someone for millions in damages. So now they have set up a control system with rules and regulations to try and stop idiots from falling over. (And protect the Parks Department from being sued). If we can set up regulations to try and protect people from falling over, surely we are allowed to set laws to stop them killing themselves and other people? BillK From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 08:08:59 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:38:59 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! Message-ID: <710b78fc04082001081ee5a951@mail.gmail.com> Watch it a few times and feel your jaw hit the floor... http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo23.mpg Hold on, here comes the singularity. Here's the full article... Combat robots wow crowds http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996286&lpos=home2 -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From alito at organicrobot.com Fri Aug 20 10:07:59 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:07:59 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04082001081ee5a951@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc04082001081ee5a951@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1092996479.5587.258.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 17:38 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Watch it a few times and feel your jaw hit the floor... > http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo23.mpg > don't forget http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo25.mpg http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo84.mpg http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo85.mpg but if you like this kind of stuff, have a look at omnihead's robot (ie everything at the bottom of http://www.vstone.co.jp/e/rt01e.htm ) and khr1's robot (the wow robot version: http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/wow-robot- khr1-017324.php , not the kaist version (those are amazing as well, but they are not $2000 toys)) i can't find where i got the videos from. try looking for them, they are most impressive (some here http://www.kopropo.co.jp/Movie/2004SHS%20KRSDEMO.wmv http://www.wowrobot.co.kr/enter/dEnterWebData/KHR-1/khr1_a.wmv but there are others) and if you got more time to kill have a look at everything from: http://www.teamkiss.com/roboone/robo1videos.html and if you've got pointers to more r0B07 pr0n, do send me a pointer. alejandro From gingell at gnat.com Fri Aug 20 10:35:29 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:35:29 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <96EFE3AA-F27A-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com> <57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <16677.37893.404416.998067@nile.gnat.com> <96EFE3AA-F27A-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <16677.54257.890417.117941@nile.gnat.com> J. Andrew Rogers writes: > I would define any person who can command vast quantities of capital, > whether from a few wealthy sources or millions of middle-class folks, > as "wealthy". This definition does not match what is is normally meant by "wealthy" in a market economy. A bank loan officer might control millions of dollars of capital but he isn't necessarily a wealthy person, any more than the navigator of a hundred million dollar cruise ship is necessarily a wealthy person. Think of venture capital and mutual fund managers, arbitrage brokers, currency traders, executives of corporations or pension funds, and so on. They all control big pools of other peoples money and they all try to make the pool bigger by finding interesting things to do with it, and none of them are necessarily super-rich people. > My original point was more that you can't have vast quantities of > capital under the control of a small number of people without also > having a de facto "wealthy" class. There are a dozen different > creative ways to dress it up, but the result is roughly equivalent. One of the miracles of capitalism is that this isn't true. Billion dollar decisions can be made without anyone actually having to possess a billion dollars. Your 401K, my savings account, somebody else's stock portfolio, and millions of other independent economically rational investments can be pooled together to accomplish things none of us could accomplish alone. It isn't dressing anything up to distinguish the magnificently egalitarian possibilities of markets from Soviet central planning or from a world in which nothing happens unless some preposterously wealthy aristocrat wants it to, and I don't think it's sophistry to point out one of modern capitalism's greatest strengths. > All that happens when everyone is nominally in the middle-class is that > the pool of the wealthy (no matter what its guise) becomes very, very > small which is not a fertile economic ecology. It seems, and perhaps I am misreading you, that you are advocating an essentially command economy as an ideal growth environment: You seem to envision a system where a small elite controls vast portions of a nations capital, where growth is achieved by their centralized stewardship of the nation's wealth. Your arguement seems to be that it is only by the wise and judicious calculations of a tiny monied class, by their analysis of what ventures are to be pursued, that growth is possible. > And yes, progressive income taxes destroy class mobility by making it > difficult to escape the middle class. There were a few economics > papers published several years ago that showed a lovely mathematical > correlation between effective income tax rates as a function of income > and the distribution of wealth in a population. Steeply progressive > rates concentrate control of capital in the hands of a few. How making > it progressively difficult to convert income into wealth is supposed to > help class mobility is beyond me. If the tax structure aggressively > limits the conversion of income into wealth, exactly how is that > supposed to help people in the lower economic strata that have income > but little or no wealth? Any tax, progressive or otherwise, looks like a bad thing when the consequences of its cost are analysied in isolation from the benefits of the spending it funds. In reality, progressive taxation pays for wealth transfer programs and - whether you or I believe it is a good thing - transferring money from the wealthy to the poor manifestly increases their social mobility. For instance public funding of education, public sector careers in the military, subsidized small business loans, employment and relocation assistance, a public safety net which socializes some of the downside of necessary risk taking, all increase mobility. That the people who (in an well implemented system) benefit from such programs are not those who pay for them makes the net effect a clearly upward contribution to their mobility, and this is true regardless of whether it's the way you or I think a country ought to be run. This is not to mention an entire range of other legitimate state functions that have to be funded somehow - national defense, law enforcement and the courts, whatever else you might agree is in the domain of appropriate public expenditures - the burden of which must be distributed on the shoulders of people who have already made it and people who are still trying to. It seems obvious to me which way you weight it if your goal is to make it easier for more people to escape poverty and enter the middle class. Matt From trichrom at optusnet.com.au Fri Aug 20 11:58:52 2004 From: trichrom at optusnet.com.au (RobKPO) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:58:52 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <001201c486ad$3568eeb0$f5dc1dd3@turtle> ....except that the car is the most efficiant design to transport a family unit (that industry makes available), which is the whole point of the system. SUV's are specialied vehicles and not best suited to public roads due to the inefficiancies introduced by the specilisation designed into them. Not to mention the other issues' of crash safety, reduced visibility on the road for non-4WD's user's, increased damage to road's, etc, these things clearly make SUV's vehicles not suited to 'general' use on public roads. Efficiancy should be the point - and to achieve this, an individual's fear of survivabillity on the road shouldn't be reason to let the system be imbalanced. I'd say learn to properly drive the most efficiant vehicle for the environment, and increase situational awareness and defensive driving skills. I think they should be left in the garage unless being driven to of from 4WD activities offroad/coastal, and if you cannot afford two vehicles, then perhaps that 'interest' in non efficient system's is draining that extra money! Rob KPO ----- Original Message ----- From: J. Andrew Rogers To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 7:05 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan versus motorcycle Let us put this topic another way, because some of the perspectives being applied are far too narrow: Should we ban or penalize sedan drivers because they are a clear asymmetric hazard to motorcyclists? Most cars never have more than one person in them and are typically used just to move between two points, so why not a motorcycle, which gets better gas mileage to boot? I see idiots in sedans nearly run into motorcyclists all the time, acting like they own the road. And a motorcyle can take a corner at speeds that would roll a car. We could clearly do with having far fewer cars on the road and more motorcycles, and imagine all the parking space that would free up. This is no more or less specious an argument than much of the SUV versus sedan argument. You can relabel "SUV" to "sedan" and "sedan" to "motorcycle", and essentially apply the same arguments with similar validity. Hopefully this makes the real calculus more apparent; most people seem to be arguing from personal preference or ideology rather than addressing the underlying calculus of personal transportation choices. j. andrew rogers _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 13:20:39 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040820132039.77900.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > > (Note the 10% increase in SUV occupants killed). Sorry, those are gross numbers. Unless you factor in the growth in the SUV driving population, they are meaningless statistics. What is important is to calculate the risk of death or injury for any given driver of a car vs an SUV. THOSE statistics show that SUV drivers and passengers are safer than those in cars. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 13:34:41 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040820133441.52359.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> According to the National Safety Council: "Nationally, SUVs have a rollover rate of 98 fatalities per million registered vehicles, compared to 44 fatalities per million for other light vehicle types, according to NHTSA. But consider this: 1,088 of the 1,482 SUV-rollover deaths in 1997 involved occupants who didn't use their safety belts." So SUV deaths are more than 2/3 by non-seatbelt-wearers, even though the general population wears seatbelts at a rate of 60%+ in non-mandatory-seatbelt states, and 90%+ in mandatory states. So it isn't an issue of car vs. SUV, its seatbelt wearer vs non-wearer. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From etcs.ret at verizon.net Fri Aug 20 15:37:00 2004 From: etcs.ret at verizon.net (stencil) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:37:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian SUV traction enhancement In-Reply-To: <200408200947.i7K9lQ007693@tick.javien.com> References: <200408200947.i7K9lQ007693@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <3b6ci05ocpie3j7ag6ujitb4eogc5i86uf@4ax.com> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 03:47:26 -0600, extropy-chat Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23 contained: >------------------------------ > > [ ... ] > >It is pretty funny watching Atlanta drivers freak out at the little snow and >ice we get. Of course, if you can recover from laughing about people buying >up all the bread and water at the grocery store. > >BAL Does that really work? I would guess little chunks of frozen bread would be much more environmentally friendly than the sand and salt mixture we use up here in the Berkshires. Takes all kinds. stencil sends From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 15:56:15 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 11:56:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. Message-ID: Would you please forward THOSE statistics? Thanks, BAL >From: Mike Lorrey >To: BillK , ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:20:39 -0700 (PDT) > >--- BillK wrote: > > > > > (Note the 10% increase in SUV occupants killed). > >Sorry, those are gross numbers. Unless you factor in the growth in the >SUV driving population, they are meaningless statistics. What is >important is to calculate the risk of death or injury for any given >driver of a car vs an SUV. THOSE statistics show that SUV drivers and >passengers are safer than those in cars. > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >_______________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 16:18:25 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:18:25 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. Message-ID: Your stat neglects to mention the safety belt effect in non-SUV vehicles so it's not as useful as you'd like it to be. Are 2/3s of car rollover deaths also the result of not wearing your seatbelt? I don't see why SUV drivers would be less likely to wear seatbelts (since no one has brought up the IQ to SUV correltation). BAL >From: Mike Lorrey >To: BillK , ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SUV's are killing their drivers. >Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:34:41 -0700 (PDT) > >According to the National Safety Council: > >"Nationally, SUVs have a rollover rate of 98 fatalities per million >registered vehicles, compared to 44 fatalities per million for other >light vehicle types, according to NHTSA. But consider this: 1,088 of >the 1,482 SUV-rollover deaths in 1997 involved occupants who didn't use >their safety belts." > >So SUV deaths are more than 2/3 by non-seatbelt-wearers, even though >the general population wears seatbelts at a rate of 60%+ in >non-mandatory-seatbelt states, and 90%+ in mandatory states. So it >isn't an issue of car vs. SUV, its seatbelt wearer vs non-wearer. > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >_______________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. >http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Aug 20 17:13:14 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 13:13:14 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] BODY: What Strutting Modifications are Transhuman?! Message-ID: <254960-220048520171314276@M2W060.mail2web.com> Musings ... I have been thinking about body modification and the gothic subculture who tattoo and pierce their bodies, claiming people like Stelarc as their gurus (however honestly reluctant Stelarc is to the association.) Recently in Toronto at the TransVision 2004 Conference, I saw a few individuals who were hosting tattoos and piercing - which all seemed quite ordinary and even stylistically un-Versace. Tattoos have been painted onto the human skin for eons, and such practice is neither novel nor unique. (However, the method of applying tattoos has come a long way from the hippies who made them a 1900?s fad.) ?Tattoos are no longer just an art form of the elite or associated with societal deviants. People of all ages and from all walks of life are finding their own special meaning in tattoos. Once associated only with gangs, tattoos are done between friends sharing common bonds and by individuals expressing their own uniqueness. Tattooing is modern in its form only in the tools and designs used. The concept and art of tattooing has existed throughout the centuries, beginning as early as Ancient Egypt around 2000 B.C.? (PageWise, Inc. 2002, http://riri.essortment.com/historyoftatto_rjoy.htm ) I wondered if these individuals were at the conference because they were supportive of transhumanism, or if they were there to see Mann and Stelarc. As you know, I?m not a big cyborg aficionado, for me the real mavricks of human/machine interface are the folks who actually need the body parts to function (although certainly Mann would claim that he does) to or the engineers who design them. I think of a woman I saw one day in Los Angeles by the beach. She was walking up stairs in a tennis outfit, white T and shorts. Her right leg was shinny metal and I thought far more attractive than her left leg. She seemed to feel at home with both legs as equally functioning parts of her body. I also thought of my dear sweet mother and her replacement hip, and a close friend and his robotic arm after loosing his arm in an electrical accident. They are the ?hippies? of today ? living quite admirably in their modifications. Thinking about why a sub-culture of body modifiers would think that they are exemplary of transhumans is peculiar to me. Tattoos do not extend life, or improve it as far as I know. A piercing, could help with genital stimulation, but otherwise appears not to have any physiological benefit. So, why do body modifiers think that they are transhuman and transhumanists are out of step? Because they do not have to contemplate ? to think ? do the research, write the papers, and come up with the ideas concerning the future. They can parade modifications with little intellectual muss or fuss. Speaking of body medications of tattoos ? and the reason I am writing this is because of a man who would make Body Modification folks cringe in their tattoos. He is ?Cat Man.? http://et.tv.yahoo.com/tv/2004/08/20/catmanvh1/ The one and only! He has been transforming into his favorite feline for 20 years, and has spent over $200,000 in body modification surgeries, including eyebrow implants, extensive tattoos, reshaping his ears, a cleft lip, and a relocated septum. Now don?t laugh. He is the real thing. He does not simply put tattoos all over his flesh, or pierce his hose or chop up his ears, he actually believes and has become what he thinks he is ? he walks his walk! (Down the cat walk.) Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Aug 20 19:05:13 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:05:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap Message-ID: <1093028713.25092@whirlwind.he.net> > It seems, and perhaps I am misreading you, that you are advocating an > essentially command economy as an ideal growth environment: You seem > to envision a system where a small elite controls vast portions of a > nations capital, where growth is achieved by their centralized > stewardship of the nation's wealth. Your arguement seems to be that > it is only by the wise and judicious calculations of a tiny monied > class, by their analysis of what ventures are to be pursued, that > growth is possible. You may need to think about that some more. I think that's the first time anyone has read what I've written to mean that I am all about centralization. My position is that *allowing* the vast accumulation of wealth under normal market conditions is a very positive things because it is putting the capital in the hands of those that generate substantial value either directly or indirectly, and most people will take a shot at accumulating some modicum of wealth given the chance. Progressive taxes actively inhibit the accumulation of resources by those who extracting the most value out of them. The cost of doing business shouldn't increase by fiat the more successful a business is. People with a track record given capital are people you want to have capital, preferably something proportional to past successes. Generally, this puts wealth in the maximum number of hands possible and encourages wealth churn even if the overall distribution is relatively static. It is still a Pareto distribution but one that greatly diffuses the power of any small group of individuals. In a healthy distribution, at any level of wealth, there is an even larger group of people only a little less wealthy than you, requiring the cooperation of only a few to command more capital than those more wealthy than them. In extremely progressive taxation environments, the curve is so sharp (high alpha) that at the upper percentiles of the wealth brackets, it takes a very large number of people cooperating to have capital parity with a single individual in the next percentile bracket. It wasn't I who was suggesting that having a few people control the wealth is a good thing, but anyone supporting steep progressive taxation is tacitly supporting such a thing. We don't get to pick and choose the consequences of such things. You will *always* have a Pareto distribution of some type, and the lower the alpha, the greater the wealth and benefit to the average person. Steep progressive tax functions greatly increase the alpha, thereby increasing the class gap and further unbalancing the distribution. The middle class is created in low-alpha environments. If you are worried about the loss of the middle class, work on that. It slays me when politicians try to "save" the middle-class by making taxes even more progressive. Wash, rinse, repeat when the problem becomes even worse. j. andrew rogers From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Fri Aug 20 19:21:54 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 12:21:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FEAADAF9@amazemail2.amazeent.com> J. Andrew Rogers writes: > Matthew Gingell writes: > > I would define any person who can command vast quantities of capital, > > whether from a few wealthy sources or millions of middle-class folks, > > as "wealthy". > This definition does not match what is is normally meant by "wealthy" > in a market economy. A bank loan officer might control millions of > dollars of capital but he isn't necessarily a wealthy person, any > more than the navigator of a hundred million dollar cruise ship is > necessarily a wealthy person. > Think of venture capital and mutual fund managers, arbitrage brokers, > currency traders, executives of corporations or pension funds, and so > on. They all control big pools of other peoples money and they all > try to make the pool bigger by finding interesting things to do with > it, and none of them are necessarily super-rich people. The difference between your definitions is the volitional agent. If it's your volition commanding or controlling the capital, you are wealthy. If it's someone else's, they are, whether or not you are actively managing that capital. So in that sense, wealth is the means of controlling capital via one's own volition, whether directly or indirectly. Acy From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 15:35:57 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:35:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac><000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY><16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com><57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <16677.37893.404416.998067@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: I would like to take a moment to recognize the huge gap in cincome between the beautiful and the ugly. Attractive people do have higher incomes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Gingell" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 1:02 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap > J. Andrew Rogers writes: > > > Class mobility, a function of wealth rather than income, matters at > > least as much as the distribution, as this is what provides much of the > > motivation to dare great things. > > Social mobility is a function of the ease with which individuals can > accumulate wealth - it's the integral of net income with respect to > time, plus or minus a constant for what an individual starts off > with. > > We can look at income distribution in terms of how many people have > been able to achieve great things, that is take it as the end point > of the analysis rather than the initial condition. How many > opportunities for advancements exist on various points on the > distribution: Do we have a society in which most people find it > possible to improve their lot somewhat, or do we have a > winner-take-all society in which enormous rewards accrue to a few? > > If nothing else, I think it should be pretty clear that our extremely > steep income distribution curve suggests something peculiar is going > on with our allocation of human capital. > > > Very wealthy people contribute a lot to society by being able to > > risk very large sums of capital on things that interest them, > > including many things that the government will neither have the > > will nor the interest to fund regardless of merit. This money > > builds the companies and pays for the research that generates the > > majority of the technology we enjoy today. > > A wealthy society with a healthy economy will find useful ways to > employ its wealth, regardless of how it's distributed. My pension > fund is every bit as interested in a diverse portfolio of risk / > reward tradeoffs as is the Rockefeller family fortune. > > > The engine of innovation is powered by private capital, and one > > thing history has shown is that in hindsight most government funded > > "innovations" were either unnecessary, expensive, or economically > > irrelevant. > > I don't see how this assertion relates to the rest of your argument, > but it's true as far as it goes. (With lots of qualifiers for the > provision of public goods, funding activities with positive > externalities, etc.) > > > If you have nothing but a middle class, who provides the capital > > required to have a strong economy? > > The market provides the capital. In any economy wealth is going to > seek a return, and the banking system and financial markets will find > ways to offer it. That's true whether "wealth" is million checking > accounts or a single trust fund. > > > The irony is that progressive income taxes destroy class mobility. > > It would indeed be ironic if it were true, but it's difficult to make > a sensible case that it is. > > Matt > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From rafal at smigrodzki.org Fri Aug 20 22:04:49 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 18:04:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap Message-ID: <41267581.1050802@smigrodzki.org> J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > It wasn't I who was suggesting that having a few people control the > wealth is a good thing, but anyone supporting steep progressive taxation > is tacitly supporting such a thing. We don't get to pick and choose the > consequences of such things. You will *always* have a Pareto > distribution of some type, and the lower the alpha, the greater the > wealth and benefit to the average person. Steep progressive tax > functions greatly increase the alpha, thereby increasing the class gap > and further unbalancing the distribution. > > > ### This is a very interesting issue, and you have induced me to rethink some of my beliefs. I absolutely agree that a low-alpha environment appears much more attractive than a high-alpha one, which should be intuitively obvious for anybody who appreciates the power of the free markets, and the importance of having large numbers of independent agents for rational decision-making. There is also no doubt that an income tax is one of the stupidest ways of financing public goods. Currently, the most inept decision-makers (i.e. non-profitable businesses and individuals) are rewarded by not having to pay taxes, while the successful ones are forced to pay fines for their success (euphemistically referred to as income or corporate taxes). However, I wonder what do you think about the idea of progressively taxing the size of economic entities, rather than their income. Perhaps naively, I expect that a tax applied to any transaction (no matter whether an economic gain or loss is claimed) in proportion to the net value (market capitalization, real estate market value, total equity holdings) of the involved entities (no matter whether persons, corporations, non-profits), would serve to lower alpha, by punishing size but without punishing success. I think that under some favorable cicumstances the state could be profitably dispensed with altogether, but for the time being, given insufficient economic savvy of the citizenry, it still has a role to play, and the least harmful way of paying for it might be the universal progressive transaction tax. Rafal From benboc at lineone.net Fri Aug 20 22:26:32 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:26:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] BODY: What Strutting Modifications are Transhuman?! In-Reply-To: <200408201800.i7KI08013561@tick.javien.com> References: <200408201800.i7KI08013561@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41267A98.2070608@lineone.net> I don't see that tattoos or piercings are any more significant to Transhumanism than cosmetics or high-heels. Personally, i don't even so much as wear any jewellery, but i am a transhumanist. I do wear spectacles, though, and that counts for far more, in my opinion, than a piece of decorative metal, no matter where it's stuck on, or in. (Not that i'm saying that wearing 'specs makes you a transhumanist!) If somebody came up with a tattoo that was an active display, that could for instance show a clock face, and keep time, i'd get one like a shot. Not because it's decorative, but because it's useful. I'd love to have the time tattooed on the back of a finger. Couldn't forget or lose my watch, then! To answer the question, though, it's not the modifications that are 'Transhuman' at all, it's your attitude. ben From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Aug 20 22:36:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:36:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040820223618.48089.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> They need it. Think of all the plastic surgery, status symbols (cars, watches, jewelry, clothing, etc) they need to buy, and the agents they need to pay for to keep up their life styles... --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I would like to take a moment to recognize the huge gap in cincome > between > the beautiful and the ugly. Attractive people do have higher incomes. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew Gingell" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 1:02 AM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap > > > > J. Andrew Rogers writes: > > > > > Class mobility, a function of wealth rather than income, matters > at > > > least as much as the distribution, as this is what provides much > of the > > > motivation to dare great things. > > > > Social mobility is a function of the ease with which individuals > can > > accumulate wealth - it's the integral of net income with respect > to > > time, plus or minus a constant for what an individual starts off > > with. > > > > We can look at income distribution in terms of how many people > have > > been able to achieve great things, that is take it as the end > point > > of the analysis rather than the initial condition. How many > > opportunities for advancements exist on various points on the > > distribution: Do we have a society in which most people find it > > possible to improve their lot somewhat, or do we have a > > winner-take-all society in which enormous rewards accrue to a few? > > > > If nothing else, I think it should be pretty clear that our > extremely > > steep income distribution curve suggests something peculiar is > going > > on with our allocation of human capital. > > > > > Very wealthy people contribute a lot to society by being able to > > > risk very large sums of capital on things that interest them, > > > including many things that the government will neither have the > > > will nor the interest to fund regardless of merit. This money > > > builds the companies and pays for the research that generates > the > > > majority of the technology we enjoy today. > > > > A wealthy society with a healthy economy will find useful ways to > > employ its wealth, regardless of how it's distributed. My pension > > fund is every bit as interested in a diverse portfolio of risk / > > reward tradeoffs as is the Rockefeller family fortune. > > > > > The engine of innovation is powered by private capital, and one > > > thing history has shown is that in hindsight most government > funded > > > "innovations" were either unnecessary, expensive, or > economically > > > irrelevant. > > > > I don't see how this assertion relates to the rest of your > argument, > > but it's true as far as it goes. (With lots of qualifiers for the > > provision of public goods, funding activities with positive > > externalities, etc.) > > > > > If you have nothing but a middle class, who provides the capital > > > required to have a strong economy? > > > > The market provides the capital. In any economy wealth is going to > > seek a return, and the banking system and financial markets will > find > > ways to offer it. That's true whether "wealth" is million checking > > accounts or a single trust fund. > > > > > The irony is that progressive income taxes destroy class > mobility. > > > > It would indeed be ironic if it were true, but it's difficult to > make > > a sensible case that it is. > > > > Matt > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Aug 20 23:54:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:24:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] P2P software vendors not liable for their user's behaviour Message-ID: <710b78fc040820165444def222@mail.gmail.com> "A federal appeals court in California ruled that Grokster and StreamCast, maker of the Morpheus P2P software, are not liable for copyright infringement when users of their software trade songs, music and other files online. "In essence, the ruling says file-sharing software is legal. That sets the stage for a potential showdown before the U.S. Supreme Court and more lobbying for legislative solutions," USA Today explained." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18302-2004Aug20.html?referrer%3Demail It requires a login, so here's the whole thing: --------------------------------------------- Software Doesn't Break Laws... By Cynthia L. Webb washingtonpost.com Staff Writer Friday, August 20, 2004; 9:47 AM What do file-sharing companies and the National Rifle Association have in common? A common legal argument, that's what. The entertainment industry's multi-year legal war to stamp out illegal online file-sharing was dealt a major blow yesterday when a federal court said that two major peer-to-peer software firms can't be held liable for the copyright-infringing activities of their users. Software doesn't violate copyrights, people do, or so the argument goes... A federal appeals court in California ruled that Grokster and StreamCast, maker of the Morpheus P2P software, are not liable for copyright infringement when users of their software trade songs, music and other files online. "In essence, the ruling says file-sharing software is legal. That sets the stage for a potential showdown before the U.S. Supreme Court and more lobbying for legislative solutions," USA Today explained. ? USA Today: Ruling Sets Back Music Industry's Piracy Battle ? Ninth Circuit decision: MGM v. Grokster (PDF) CNET's News.com said the "ruling means that companies that write and distribute peer-to-peer software can't be shut down because of the actions of their customers. It did not say file-trading itself is legal, and lower courts in the United States have said individual computer users are breaking the law when they trade copyrighted files without permission. But the ruling does lift the cloud of potential liability from defendants Grokster and StreamCast Networks, as well as from many of their rivals." ? CNET's News.com: Judge's Rule File-Sharing Software Legal So does this mean the file-sharers have won once and for all? According to The Wall Street Journal, not yet: "The ruling yesterday by three judges for the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco will almost certainly intensify efforts by movie studios, music companies and songwriters -- the plaintiffs in the case -- to curb online piracy through other means. Those efforts are expected to include lobbying for legislation designed to crack down on makers of file-sharing programs and lawsuits against individuals who share pirated files over the Internet. Music companies have already been filing such lawsuits for about a year, though the Hollywood studios have not yet followed suit." But the ruling certainly changes the situation on the battlefield, as the Journal concluded: "Though the fight over online piracy is far from over, the appeals court ruling seemed to tilt the years-long battle largely in favor of technology companies." ? The Wall Street Journal: Green Light For Grokster (Subscription required) The Los Angeles Times also noted in its coverage that Capitol Hill will be the next stop for the file-swapping fight: "The battle over file sharing is now likely to shift to Washington. Congress is considering a bill that would crack down on the companies making the software used by millions to copy music, movies and games over the Internet. What's more, if the entertainment industry appeals the decision, the U.S. Supreme Court could revisit its landmark Sony Betamax ruling, which protects from copyright lawsuits products that have substantial legitimate uses," reporter Jon Healey wrote. Ironically, the same court helped kill off the Napster file-sharing service in a previous ruling. The Los Angeles Times explained why the new generation file-sharing sites were spared: "The same appeals court came to a different conclusion about Napster in 2001, holding the pioneering file-sharing service responsible for its users' illegal activity because its central computers tracked all the songs available for downloading. But today's file-sharing networks have no central computers. The companies behind such 'peer to peer' systems cannot even monitor users, let alone rein them in, Judge Sidney R. Thomas noted in his opinion for the appeals panel." More on this from the Associated Press: "The panel noted that the software companies simply provided software for individual users to share information over the Internet, regardless of whether that shared information was copyrighted." Thursday's ruling was certainly cheered by P2P site Kazaa, which will use the decision to its advantage. "The court found that the file-sharing networks have legitimate uses, allowing the band Wilco, for instance, to distribute online an album its record label declined to release. The ruling also will affect the entertainment industry's pending case in Los Angeles federal court against Sharman Networks, owner of Kazaa, the world's largest file-sharing network," the San Jose Mercury News reported. Expect a version of this logic to be used going forward. BBC News Online quoted Fred von Lohmann of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, who represented StreamCast in the case. Lohmann: "The same principle that people who make crowbars are not responsible for the robberies that may be committed with those crowbars." Crow bars don't kill people, people kill people... No surprise here: the Recording Industry Association of America doesn't like the ruling. The New York Times picked up on a statement by RIAA chief Mitch Bainwol, who said the ruling "does not absolve these businesses from their responsibility as corporate citizens to address the rampant illegal use of their networks." Indeed, the RIAA and movie industry can still aim their ammo at individual file-sharers. The ruling "says the makers of the software can't be liable," Art Brodsky, communications director of public interest group Public Knowledge, told the Times. "It doesn't say anything about the individual users." ------------------------------- -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Aug 21 00:06:02 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:06:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] P2P software vendors not liable In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040820165444def222@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040820165444def222@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040820190356.01c19cd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:24 AM 8/21/2004 +0930, Emlyn quoted: >Crow bars don't kill people, people kill people... This is obviously a typo. Crow bars don't kill people, crow bars kill crows. Damien Broderick [I haven't drunk in one for years] From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 00:19:51 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:49:51 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] BODY: What Strutting Modifications are Transhuman?! In-Reply-To: <41267A98.2070608@lineone.net> References: <200408201800.i7KI08013561@tick.javien.com> <41267A98.2070608@lineone.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc04082017193c34627f@mail.gmail.com> When are the body modifiers going to work out that no matters how many tatoos, vampire teeth, and ball bearing implants they get, they'll still be shallow wankers? Heh heh. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 23:26:32 +0100, ben wrote: > I don't see that tattoos or piercings are any more significant to > Transhumanism than cosmetics or high-heels. > > Personally, i don't even so much as wear any jewellery, but i am a > transhumanist. I do wear spectacles, though, and that counts for far > more, in my opinion, than a piece of decorative metal, no matter where > it's stuck on, or in. (Not that i'm saying that wearing 'specs makes you > a transhumanist!) > > If somebody came up with a tattoo that was an active display, that could > for instance show a clock face, and keep time, i'd get one like a shot. > Not because it's decorative, but because it's useful. I'd love to have > the time tattooed on the back of a finger. Couldn't forget or lose my > watch, then! > > To answer the question, though, it's not the modifications that are > 'Transhuman' at all, it's your attitude. > > ben > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Aug 21 00:27:32 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:27:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] BODY: What Strutting Modifications are Transhuman?! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04082017193c34627f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040821002732.87355.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > When are the body modifiers going to work out that > no matters how many > tatoos, vampire teeth, and ball bearing implants > they get, they'll > still be shallow wankers? Heh heh. When truly functional implants become widely accessible (including affordable)? From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 00:29:30 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 09:59:30 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV with gunracks and dash mounted personality upload Message-ID: <710b78fc0408201729596333c9@mail.gmail.com> I'm wondering if posting about the combination of SUVs, guns and personality backups can cause an explosion so large that it'll cause a chain reaction and destroy the entire universe. Or at least be a kind of social-engineering DOS attack on the exi-list :-) On related topics, did you see that the Packbot that the US is using in Iraq has a shotgun module? Mad buggers! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 00:36:01 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 10:06:01 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] BODY: What Strutting Modifications are Transhuman?! In-Reply-To: <20040821002732.87355.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040821002732.87355.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040820173630aeb714@mail.gmail.com> Implants that do something are a totally different story. But I suspect there will still be people who choose aesthetic implants/mods over functional ones in order to enhance sub-culture status. The status oriented never really have my sympathy even at the best of times. The current crop of body modders (excepting the real crazy ones like Stalking Cat, him I respect) are no different from the people who buy the most shiny and expensive mobile phone for status, who buy the status house or drive an urban SUV. It's a lame substitute for a life. That said, I would love to try some of the more extreme body mod stuff some time, for the experience. I'd be worried that I'd end up looking *soooo* turn of the millenium though. I mean, how are you gonna live down that magnetic foreskin implant in 2050? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:27:32 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > When are the body modifiers going to work out that > > no matters how many > > tatoos, vampire teeth, and ball bearing implants > > they get, they'll > > still be shallow wankers? Heh heh. > > When truly functional implants become widely > accessible (including affordable)? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Aug 21 00:47:07 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 17:47:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Beauty" Gap [was Tax Burden Gap] References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac><000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY><16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com><57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com><16677.37893.404416.998067@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: <003501c48718$63c4e730$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Kevin Freels" > I would like to take a moment to recognize the huge gap in income between > the beautiful and the ugly. Attractive people do have higher incomes. Yes, at least what is currently considered attractive (there have been small variations throughout the decades). On the heterosexual front, at least, the practice goes on - attractive women (even if they are admittedly "thick"-in-the-head) are often able to "sell" their assets to either: (a) attractive successful men; or (b) not very attractive succesful men; and (c) world-class ugly successful men (e.g., The Donald). Sad. Whatcha' gonna' do? And taller attractive people (from what I've read - men) tend to have more success with making money than shorter men. I've long been intrigued with the idea of separating procreation from "romantic love." Now we are starting to see some progress here (and science and technology promises to bring us more options in the future). Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Aug 21 02:17:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 19:17:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <41267581.1050802@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: <001401c48724$fdfa0590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Rafal Smigrodzki > > > J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > > It wasn't I who was suggesting that having a few people control the > > wealth is a good thing, but anyone supporting steep progressive taxation > > is tacitly supporting such a thing. > > > > > ### ...I absolutely agree that a low-alpha environment > appears much more attractive than a high-alpha one... > > However, I wonder what do you think about the idea of progressively > taxing the size of economic entities, rather than their income. Perhaps > naively, I expect that a tax applied to any transaction (no matter > whether an economic gain or loss is claimed) in proportion to the net > value (market capitalization, real estate market value, total equity > holdings) of the involved entities (no matter whether persons, > corporations, non-profits), would serve to lower alpha, by punishing > size but without punishing success... > > Rafal... Oooh, I get so turned on at that kind of talk. In a very masculine, heterosexual capitalist way of course. {8^D spike From sjvans at ameritech.net Sat Aug 21 02:41:56 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:41:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV with gunracks and dash mounted personality upload In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0408201729596333c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0408201729596333c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1093056116.1045.50.camel@Renfield> On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 19:29, Emlyn wrote: > On related topics, did you see that the Packbot that the US is using > in Iraq has a shotgun module? Mad buggers! Err, why is it mad? They've been making such things for well over a decade, for remote detonating explosives. Probably isn't a bomb squad in the country doesn't have one now, and would come in right handy in Iraq. From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Aug 20 15:34:16 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:34:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap References: <04f301c4841d$b52c3db0$6600a8c0@brainiac><000001c48426$f64a61b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY><16674.36604.635250.254028@nile.gnat.com><57A45CA0-F19E-11D8-8850-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com><16677.37893.404416.998067@nile.gnat.com><96EFE3AA-F27A-11D8-8E3A-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <16677.54257.890417.117941@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: I have personally moved approximately $14.5 million this year. I really wish it were my money! :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Gingell" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, August 20, 2004 5:35 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap > J. Andrew Rogers writes: > > > I would define any person who can command vast quantities of capital, > > whether from a few wealthy sources or millions of middle-class folks, > > as "wealthy". > > This definition does not match what is is normally meant by "wealthy" > in a market economy. A bank loan officer might control millions of > dollars of capital but he isn't necessarily a wealthy person, any > more than the navigator of a hundred million dollar cruise ship is > necessarily a wealthy person. > > Think of venture capital and mutual fund managers, arbitrage brokers, > currency traders, executives of corporations or pension funds, and so > on. They all control big pools of other peoples money and they all > try to make the pool bigger by finding interesting things to do with > it, and none of them are necessarily super-rich people. > > > My original point was more that you can't have vast quantities of > > capital under the control of a small number of people without also > > having a de facto "wealthy" class. There are a dozen different > > creative ways to dress it up, but the result is roughly equivalent. > > One of the miracles of capitalism is that this isn't true. Billion > dollar decisions can be made without anyone actually having to > possess a billion dollars. > > Your 401K, my savings account, somebody else's stock portfolio, and > millions of other independent economically rational investments can > be pooled together to accomplish things none of us could accomplish > alone. > > It isn't dressing anything up to distinguish the magnificently > egalitarian possibilities of markets from Soviet central planning or > from a world in which nothing happens unless some preposterously > wealthy aristocrat wants it to, and I don't think it's sophistry to > point out one of modern capitalism's greatest strengths. > > > All that happens when everyone is nominally in the middle-class is that > > the pool of the wealthy (no matter what its guise) becomes very, very > > small which is not a fertile economic ecology. > > It seems, and perhaps I am misreading you, that you are advocating an > essentially command economy as an ideal growth environment: You seem > to envision a system where a small elite controls vast portions of a > nations capital, where growth is achieved by their centralized > stewardship of the nation's wealth. Your arguement seems to be that > it is only by the wise and judicious calculations of a tiny monied > class, by their analysis of what ventures are to be pursued, that > growth is possible. > > > And yes, progressive income taxes destroy class mobility by making it > > difficult to escape the middle class. There were a few economics > > papers published several years ago that showed a lovely mathematical > > correlation between effective income tax rates as a function of income > > and the distribution of wealth in a population. Steeply progressive > > rates concentrate control of capital in the hands of a few. How making > > it progressively difficult to convert income into wealth is supposed to > > help class mobility is beyond me. If the tax structure aggressively > > limits the conversion of income into wealth, exactly how is that > > supposed to help people in the lower economic strata that have income > > but little or no wealth? > > Any tax, progressive or otherwise, looks like a bad thing when the > consequences of its cost are analysied in isolation from the benefits > of the spending it funds. In reality, progressive taxation pays for > wealth transfer programs and - whether you or I believe it is a good > thing - transferring money from the wealthy to the poor manifestly > increases their social mobility. > > For instance public funding of education, public sector careers in > the military, subsidized small business loans, employment and > relocation assistance, a public safety net which socializes some of > the downside of necessary risk taking, all increase mobility. That > the people who (in an well implemented system) benefit from such > programs are not those who pay for them makes the net effect a > clearly upward contribution to their mobility, and this is true > regardless of whether it's the way you or I think a country ought to > be run. > > This is not to mention an entire range of other legitimate state > functions that have to be funded somehow - national defense, law > enforcement and the courts, whatever else you might agree is in the > domain of appropriate public expenditures - the burden of which must > be distributed on the shoulders of people who have already made it > and people who are still trying to. It seems obvious to me which way > you weight it if your goal is to make it easier for more people to > escape poverty and enter the middle class. > > Matt > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 04:59:40 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 14:29:40 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV with gunracks and dash mounted personality upload In-Reply-To: <1093056116.1045.50.camel@Renfield> References: <710b78fc0408201729596333c9@mail.gmail.com> <1093056116.1045.50.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <710b78fc04082021596b0f19df@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 21:41:56 -0500, Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 19:29, Emlyn wrote: > > > On related topics, did you see that the Packbot that the US is using > > in Iraq has a shotgun module? Mad buggers! > > Err, why is it mad? They've been making such things for well over a > decade, for remote detonating explosives. Probably isn't a bomb squad > in the country doesn't have one now, and would come in right handy in > Iraq. Sorry, it wasn't meant to be a moral judgement; colloquial. I meant it's surprising, in a TOTALLY X-TREME!!!! kind of way. And I think the advent of armed robots (not new but newish, counting armed drone aircraft, etc) is kinda cool, very sci fi. Experiencing them secondhand via web reports is vastly preferable to personal encounters, of course. Would that all our wars were fought between robots on deserted battlefields. Unfortunately I think they are currently being used to kill actual real live people, which isn't so good. A link for the google-differently-abled: Robot with attitude: Armed with shotgun, WMD sensor http://216.26.163.62/2004/ss_military_08_16.html -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Aug 21 08:47:25 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:17:25 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco Message-ID: <710b78fc04082101473fea99ac@mail.gmail.com> People here may have heard of Ricardo Semler and Semco, a $300 megabuck Brazillian company that is organised along lines of democracy. Not the sickly doppelganger "representative democracy" that we all live under, rather its a direct democracy that looks a lot more like anarchy than anything else. I'm reading "The seven day weekend" at the moment, written by Semler. It's a jaw dropper. He makes the current corporate leadership of the world's great companies look like feudal warlords (well, really they already looked that way). Buy it. Read it. Here's a good recent interview with Semler. http://www.conference-board.org/articles/atb_article.cfm?id=255 Has anyone else read any of his work, or had any experience of Semco? Thoughts? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Aug 21 15:23:55 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04082101473fea99ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040821152355.29666.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > People here may have heard of Ricardo Semler and > Semco, a $300 > megabuck Brazillian company that is organised along > lines of > democracy. Not the sickly doppelganger > "representative democracy" that > we all live under, rather its a direct democracy > that looks a lot more > like anarchy than anything else. > > I'm reading "The seven day weekend" at the moment, > written by Semler. > It's a jaw dropper. He makes the current corporate > leadership of the > world's great companies look like feudal warlords > (well, really they > already looked that way). Buy it. Read it. > > Here's a good recent interview with Semler. > http://www.conference-board.org/articles/atb_article.cfm?id=255 > > Has anyone else read any of his work, or had any > experience of Semco? Thoughts? I would say that a lot of small businesses in America are organized the way he envisions, in part because they have not (yet) attracted large capital, or the providers of such who want security at the expense of potential growth. That said, I see one potential problem, if American businesses tried to implement his model: slacker employees. A lot of the controls he objects to were put into place to make sure the work gets done; I've seen failure to enforce these controls result in employees failing to (arguably becoming inable to) meet agreed-upon deadlines. In theory, one could reduce pay or fire said employees - but one then has the problem of completing the promised project for one's customer anyway, and then there are the lawsuit-happy types who will sue you for improper termination (or whatever the legal term is). I'm sure he has a solution to this. I'm just not sure that solution would work (or be correctly applied) elsewhere. From samantha at objectent.com Sat Aug 21 18:36:22 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 11:36:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <00022870-F3A1-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 13, 2004, at 9:59 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Samantha wrote: > >> I plan to vote for the Libertarian candidate, Badnarik. Not >> because of any overly complicated political calculation >> though. Badnarik is simply the only one I have heard >> speak sensibly (and in large agreement with my own views). >> Of course I don't expect him to win. > > If you expect that either Kerry or Bush will win and consequently > hold the power of the office for four years why wouldn't you > vote for whichever of those you dislike the least? What for? So I can say that my choice won? I would rather say that I voted for the candidate and party that actually stood for what I believe in. Frankly I think both Kerry and Bush are a disastrous choice. I cannot in good conscience vote for either one of them. > > The reason I ask is that I get that neither Bush or Kerry appeal > and I get that a lot of people think it won't make much difference > but I can think of two grounds on which I think it will make a > practical difference. > > 1) International law (or just plain old rule-of-law period) > > Kerry does not yet have conspicuous bad form as the head of > state of a permanent security council member that invaded a > foreign country. > Ah, but he says that even knowing what we know now that he would have invaded Iraq! > > > 2) Stem cell research. (When Bush goes so will his screwy council > on bioethics). > > Don't be so sure. I can easily imagine a bioethics council determining what government provided medical insurance should and should not cover. I can easily imagine government provided healthcare wiping out much non-government based healthcare choice. - samantha From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 19:27:45 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SUV with gunracks and dash mounted personality upload In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0408201729596333c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040821192745.67265.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > I'm wondering if posting about the combination of SUVs, guns and > personality backups can cause an explosion so large that it'll cause > a chain reaction and destroy the entire universe. Or at least be a kind > of social-engineering DOS attack on the exi-list :-) > > On related topics, did you see that the Packbot that the US is using > in Iraq has a shotgun module? Mad buggers! Ah, yes, iranian insurgents do not wear body armor, and as Massad Ayoob has said years ago, "double ought buckshot in a shotgun is ballistically superior to .45 ACP". But would personalities uploaded to a smart SUV have any more a drive to accessorize their vehicles than your current day Auto Zone customer? I'd say the rate at which they accessorize would merely be accelerated. Therefore, take advantage of the curve and invest in AutoZone, VIP, Pep Boys, and other purveyors ofe vehicle paraphernalia. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 21 19:50:23 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 12:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <00022870-F3A1-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040821195023.91196.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > 2) Stem cell research. (When Bush goes so will his screwy council > > on bioethics). > > > > Don't be so sure. I can easily imagine a bioethics council > determining > what government provided medical insurance should and should not > cover. > I can easily imagine government provided healthcare wiping out > much non-government based healthcare choice. It is on rare occasion that Samantha and I agree on things. I too will vote for Badnarik, and I similarly believe that Kerry would be similarly, if not more, disasterous for this country than Bush has been. On Bioethics alone, please recall that the radical left, of which Kerry was once associated, is the preponderance of the luddite movement. I and Greg have documented the movements ties to radical left organizations like the Wobblies, the Merry Pranksters, International Communism, and anarcho-socialists. It is publicly documented that Teresa Heinz Kerry has provided funding, laundered through the Tides Center, for the Merry Pranksters, and SPECIFICALLY funding to run the Prankster's boot camp for luddite and anti-globalist saboteurs. As much as Kerry likes to present himself as Bush-lite, he has backed and voted for some of the most left wing anti-freedom bills to pass congress in the last 30 years. Even leaving his Swift Boat detractors aside, he has far more statist baggage in his closet than Bush ever has. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 01:04:07 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:34:07 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco In-Reply-To: <20040821152355.29666.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040821152355.29666.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04082118046e5de11e@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:23:55 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Emlyn wrote: > > People here may have heard of Ricardo Semler and > > Semco, a $300 > > megabuck Brazillian company that is organised along > > lines of > > democracy. Not the sickly doppelganger > > "representative democracy" that > > we all live under, rather its a direct democracy > > that looks a lot more > > like anarchy than anything else. > > > > I'm reading "The seven day weekend" at the moment, > > written by Semler. > > It's a jaw dropper. He makes the current corporate > > leadership of the > > world's great companies look like feudal warlords > > (well, really they > > already looked that way). Buy it. Read it. > > > > Here's a good recent interview with Semler. > > > http://www.conference-board.org/articles/atb_article.cfm?id=255 > > > > Has anyone else read any of his work, or had any > > experience of Semco? Thoughts? > > I would say that a lot of small businesses in America > are organized the way he envisions, in part because > they have not (yet) attracted large capital, or the > providers of such who want security at the expense of > potential growth. > > That said, I see one potential problem, if American > businesses tried to implement his model: slacker > employees. A lot of the controls he objects to were > put into place to make sure the work gets done; I've > seen failure to enforce these controls result in > employees failing to (arguably becoming inable to) > meet agreed-upon deadlines. In theory, one could > reduce pay or fire said employees - but one then has > the problem of completing the promised project for > one's customer anyway, and then there are the > lawsuit-happy types who will sue you for improper > termination (or whatever the legal term is). > > I'm sure he has a solution to this. I'm just not sure > that solution would work (or be correctly applied) > elsewhere. It must be that Brazillians are so infused with the work ethic. :-) Seriously, he talks about this quite a bit; his big point is that responsibility and power are linked. I think people get fired, *by their collegues*, when they fail to perform. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Aug 22 01:52:56 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:52:56 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY><0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com><007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> <00022870-F3A1-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <00fc01c487ea$beecbf20$362c2dcb@homepc> Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Aug 13, 2004, at 9:59 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > If you expect that either Kerry or Bush will win and > > consequently hold the power of the office for four years > > why wouldn't you vote for whichever of those you dislike > > the least? > > What for? So I can say that my choice won? I would rather say > that I voted for the candidate and party that actually stood for what > I believe in. Frankly I think both Kerry and Bush are a disastrous > choice. I cannot in good conscience vote for either one of them. No, to minimise the damage, where damage is damage or harm as *you* see it. Harm to *you* and to the principles or values that *you* support whatever they are. If Badarnik can't win the presidency this time around (in your opinion) then you must know that someone else will win it this time around. And you must know that you and everyone else will live with the consequences for four years. > > The reason I ask is that I get that neither Bush or Kerry appeal > > and I get that a lot of people think it won't make much difference > > but I can think of two grounds on which I think it will make a > > practical difference. > > > > 1) International law (or just plain old rule-of-law period) > > > > Kerry does not yet have conspicuous bad form as the head of > > state of a permanent security council member that invaded a > > foreign country. > > Ah, but he says that even knowing what we know now that he > would have invaded Iraq! I haven't read or heard him say that directly but I accept that what you are saying is likely to be the case. And it would be a decisive point against Kerry in my opinion were Bush not saying the same thing. It would be a decisive point for me because I see the maintainence and development of international law especially in the area of peace and security as the highest priority. Without it free trade isn't free trade is something muddleheaded or underhanded. But this is where politics gets tricky. It could be that neither Kerry nor Bush give a damn about international law or even that both do but think that the average voter doesn't (and they may be right). That its too esoteric. Politically it is likely (to say the least) that Bush can't say he regrets invading Iraq over WMD's in hindsight (there is still a war on!) and Kerry is in the same situation (ie. there will still be a war on and Kerry will still have voted "for it" in simple speak - though I'm not sure its quite that simple - its not the same for Congress to vote to empower the President with a full range of options - including the military one as it is for the President to mistakenly go with the military one - which is what I think actually happened). To get elected Kerry may be making himself seem like Bush-lite (to use Mike's term) on issues that won't matter to the majority of voters. I think Mike is likely right in that he won't be quite so Bush-lite the other side of the election. That is what makes it hard. He'll probably be more like a traditional democrat and drift to the left after the election and were I a tax paying American living within the fortress and looking for relief as my number one issue that might influence me more than it does as an Australian. I like both major electable parties close to the middle on the left-right dimension so I'd not want a left drift but far more important to me I don't want him to be anything like Bush in terms of his diplomatic skills. I want him to be a whole lot better and he may be only a little bit better (I can't imagine that he'd be worse than Bush diplomatically - in diplomatic terms I think Bush might as well be completely crazy). To me Bush has had a chance as a diplomat and ought not under any circumstances be given another. It would be dire for international peace and security as the message that's going out currently is pure 'might makes right'. Kerry hasn't had a chance so diplomatically he is still something of a "clean skin". > > 2) Stem cell research. (When Bush goes so will his screwy > > council on bioethics). > > Don't be so sure. I can easily imagine a bioethics council > determining what government provided medical insurance should > and should not cover. I can easily imagine government provided > healthcare wiping out much non-government based healthcare > choice. How sure should I be? :-) Do you imagine that Kerry will keep the President's Council on Bioethics in the same form as it is now? With stem cells the problem is that uncertainty about government policy is making it difficult for the private sector to do what the private sector does. The private sector is not a homogenous sector its a bunch of competitors. It represents a risk for any particular firm in the private sector to go into basic research that won't pay dividends for far longer than a presidential term. If policy changes they may not be able to pay back the investors who invested in basic research. You have to have the basic research. Its the basic research (or the amount of it) that is being hit now. Bush's *ethical* stance on stem cells has caused a go slow globally. That will translate into longer times taken to develop treatments based on understanding. The understanding is taking longer than it needs too as too few researchers are financially able to get into it. Before the goods of stem cell research are commercialised they must be developed and before that the biology of human stem cells must be understood. Politics is slowing down the rate at which we are understanding because its keeping researchers away from the enabling basic research. The above is over simplified - but this post is already too long. Brett From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Sun Aug 22 12:46:36 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 13:46:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04082118046e5de11e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040821152355.29666.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc04082118046e5de11e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <412895AC.60209@optusnet.com.au> Emlyn wrote: > On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 08:23:55 -0700 (PDT), > > Seriously, he talks about this quite a bit; his big point is that > responsibility and power are linked. I think people get fired, *by > their collegues*, when they fail to perform. > This is a very powerful motivator to perform. One's colleagues are far more likely to know how valuable your output is than some supervisor who wanders past now and again. I would say that people being fired by their colleagues is probably relatively uncommon. The peer pressure not to slack off would be sufficient. I have worked in an environment where team output was what counted, not individual results, and the pressure that team members placed on each other could be quite brutal if someone was consistantly not carrying their fair share. However, if someone had a reason for not performing well then they generally got far more support than they do in traditional environments too. - David. From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Aug 22 04:52:27 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 21:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco Message-ID: <20040822045227.58930.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> David wrote: > However, if someone had a reason for not performing > well then they generally got far more support than > they do in traditional environments too. A thought for consideration: "I can fix that person." versus "I can fix myself." The former seems more popular. I'm not sure what all the reasons are, but at least part of it is that some people never consider the latter - and a small portion of one's thoughts is more than a zero portion. Indeed, merely considering the latter - for wide values of "fix" - seems to be one thing that transhumanists do, that sets them apart from most other people. (This applies to both the action of thinking this thought itself, and the consequences.) From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 05:32:20 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 22:32:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Why not vote for Liberty? Message-ID: Isn't it time that we who understand the value of liberty actually voted for a Presidential candidate who honestly and completely supports it? Yeah a lot of people will say we are throwing away our vote. A lot of people will say that the Libertarians can't win. I agree it is highly improbable. But what would happen if the people who are tired of pointless war, the people who are fed up with the nation spending itself into bankruptcy, the people who do not want war without end against evil per se, the people who do not want socialized medicine and an even larger government, the people who are utterly and complete fed up with the "war on drugs" and all the tired, cynical, jaded lovers of freedom who never hear a candidate really talk about it - what if all of these folks voted for a candidate that did talk about freedom, who talked about ending the insane war on drugs, talked of bring the troops home now, talked of never supporting a draft, talked of doing away with the 16th Amendment, talked of tightly limited government? Can't win? No it is not impossible - not if all of these could be reached. It is unlikely that enough people will even hear there is a choice much less have time to believe there can be a viable choice. What will we who truly and deeply value liberty do? Will we vote once again for a candidate who is opposed to several issues deeply dear to liberty? Will we chose the lesser of two evils each of which wishes to continue the war in Iraq, reinstate the draft, continue the war on drugs, continue to run huge federal deficits, continue to assume they are the elite fit to run our lives? Or will we begin to actually act in support of liberty? Yes it is terrible to waste your vote. Make sure yours is cast for what you really believe in. - samantha From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Sun Aug 22 14:46:42 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 15:46:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco In-Reply-To: <20040822045227.58930.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040822045227.58930.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4128B1D2.6090609@optusnet.com.au> Adrian Tymes wrote: > David wrote: > >>However, if someone had a reason for not performing >>well then they generally got far more support than >>they do in traditional environments too. > > > A thought for consideration: > > "I can fix that person." > versus > "I can fix myself." > > The former seems more popular. I'm not sure what all > the reasons are, but at least part of it is that some > people never consider the latter - and a small portion > of one's thoughts is more than a zero portion. > Indeed, merely considering the latter - for wide > values of "fix" - seems to be one thing that > transhumanists do, that sets them apart from most > other people. (This applies to both the action of > thinking this thought itself, and the consequences.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > I agree with you that the former thought is more popular, and I think it is probably because most people don't like to acknowledge faults in themselves. It is easier to see faults in others. However, I was originally referring to temporary losses of performance being supported by team-mates, whereas in most other environments support consists of warnings to "look busy 'cause the boss is coming". Hmm. Another thought about fixing others - it may be that many things that need "fixing" are not necessarily broken, but may be just incompatibilities. From an objective point of view, neither solution may be preferable but one or the other is necessary. Both points of view could be in the right IF the other person would change to fit in. From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Aug 22 06:40:35 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:40:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <20040821195023.91196.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00be01c48812$f4642850$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > I can easily imagine government provided healthcare wiping out > > much non-government based healthcare choice. > > It is on rare occasion that Samantha and I agree on things. I too will > vote for Badnarik... > > ===== > Mike Lorrey Oy, hell hath frozen solid. I simultaneously agree with both Samantha and Mike on a political issue. I three will vote for Badnarik. spike ps: Badnarik who? Does she have a first name? A website? From bjk at imminst.org Sun Aug 22 06:55:14 2004 From: bjk at imminst.org (Bruce J. Klein) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 01:55:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst Update Message-ID: <41284352.7090802@imminst.org> ImmInst Update - Film, Book, Chat: Bradbury BOOK PROJECT ImmInst's first book -- The Scientific Conquest of Death -- is nearing completion -- Oct 2004. See author biographies and essay excerpts: http://www.imminst.org/book1 Essays are now being accepted for the second book: http://www.imminst.org/book FILM PROJECT Over the next four month, Bruce Klein (ImmInst Chair) will travel across the US filming individuals who are working to advance the life extension movement. To be included in the film, contact Bruce: http://www.imminst.org/film CHAT - Sun. Aug 22 @ 8 PM Eastern Robert J. Bradbury -- Founder of Aeiveos Corporation, an "education, research and investment company dedicated to understanding the causes of aging", Robert joins ImmInst to discuss life extension and other topics. http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=63&t=3990 ARTICLES Transhumanists, Still Human A Report On Transvision 2004 - by Kip Werking http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=67&t=4127 Who Wants To Live Forever? - by Nick Bostom http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=67&t=4121 ABOUT IMMINST The Immortality Institute (ImmInst) is a 501(c)3 non-profit with the mission to "end the blight of involuntary death." As of August 2004, ImmInst is supported by more than 1,600 members and 99 full members. http://www.imminst.org/fullmembers From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Aug 22 08:36:42 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:36:42 +1000 Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net><027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc> BillK wrote: > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:26:12 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > But still a public road is something that is constructed as > > part of a public policy which requires some sort of legal > > framework to make it work. > > > > If there has to be some public policy and some minimal > > set of laws or rules to make it work then what could be > > wrong with considering what that public policy (what > > those laws) should be? [BillK] > This ... seems to be getting at the root of the discussion. > The SUV supporters seem to be assigning a greater value > to their individual rights than to the good of the public at > large (the commons). This is the traditional contradiction > between individual rights and social responsibility. I think what is missing to ground this stuff sensibly is a notion of rights, what secular non-mystical rights are, where they derive and how they work. I'll offer the following as a first attempt. 1) The rights one assumes for oneself are meaningless as rights. Any creature can pursue its own interests any way it likes and for so long as it can get away with it. A creature operating alone is one operating more basically and outside the sphere of rights and responsibility. Rights only arise in a social context. An individual without a group has infinite "freedom-to" and zero "freedom-from" 2) Rights arise only in conjunction with two other associated concepts, the concept of group membership and the concept of responsibility. Where others in ones group don't accept responsibility one does not have an actual right. Rights and responsibilities must balance. Group membership is where individuals forgo some "freedom-to"s in exchange for some "freedom-froms". 3) The only rights a group member has are those that the group can underwrite for its members by drawing on the reservoir of member responsibility. The books must balance: rights cannot exist where responsibility for underwriting them and the resource to do it don't exist. 4) Laws are the means by which groups manage the balance between rights and responsibility but only for their members (citizens). 5) Groups (families, tribes, nations) can and will compete and conflict unless they can pool their members and align their rights and responsibilities. There are no mystical rights - the mystics are trying to re-allocate real world resources when they talk of such rights - and to the extent that they do they diminsh the resource pool to underwrite responsibilities such as duty of care to group members. The above is quick and crude but maybe a beginning. Brett Paatsch From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Aug 22 09:15:31 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 05:15:31 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Why not vote for Liberty? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm voting for Badnarik - and my son is running on the Libertarian party ticket here, locally. :) I agree, I cannot any longer vote for "the lesser of two evils". I hated going out of the voting booth feeling dirty and dishonest. At least this time I'll vote honestly. Regards, MB On Sat, 21 Aug 2004, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Isn't it time that we who understand the value of liberty actually > voted for a Presidential candidate who honestly and completely supports > it? Yeah a lot of people will say we are throwing away our vote. A > lot of people will say that the Libertarians can't win. I agree it is > highly improbable. But what would happen if the people who are tired > of pointless war, the people who are fed up with the nation spending > itself into bankruptcy, the people who do not want war without end > against evil per se, the people who do not want socialized medicine and > an even larger government, the people who are utterly and complete fed > up with the "war on drugs" and all the tired, cynical, jaded lovers of > freedom who never hear a candidate really talk about it - what if all > of these folks voted for a candidate that did talk about freedom, who > talked about ending the insane war on drugs, talked of bring the troops > home now, talked of never supporting a draft, talked of doing away with > the 16th Amendment, talked of tightly limited government? Can't win? > No it is not impossible - not if all of these could be reached. It > is unlikely that enough people will even hear there is a choice much > less have time to believe there can be a viable choice. > > What will we who truly and deeply value liberty do? Will we vote once > again for a candidate who is opposed to several issues deeply dear to > liberty? Will we chose the lesser of two evils each of which wishes > to continue the war in Iraq, reinstate the draft, continue the war on > drugs, continue to run huge federal deficits, continue to assume they > are the elite fit to run our lives? Or will we begin to actually act > in support of liberty? > > Yes it is terrible to waste your vote. Make sure yours is cast for > what you really believe in. > > - samantha > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 14:10:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:10:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) Message-ID: <20040822141016.79188.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> while rights confer responsibility, it is stil only resp for ones self, and to others in that one does not violate the life liberty or property of another. putting another at risk is not a violation of rights, and even todays courts still recognise this. no harm equls no foul. --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > BillK wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 09:26:12 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > > > But still a public road is something that is constructed as > > > part of a public policy which requires some sort of legal > > > framework to make it work. > > > > > > If there has to be some public policy and some minimal > > > set of laws or rules to make it work then what could be > > > wrong with considering what that public policy (what > > > those laws) should be? > > [BillK] > > This ... seems to be getting at the root of the discussion. > > The SUV supporters seem to be assigning a greater value > > to their individual rights than to the good of the public at > > large (the commons). This is the traditional contradiction > > between individual rights and social responsibility. > > I think what is missing to ground this stuff sensibly is a notion of > rights, what secular non-mystical rights are, where they derive > and how they work. > > I'll offer the following as a first attempt. > > 1) The rights one assumes for oneself are meaningless as rights. > Any creature can pursue its own interests any way it likes and > for so long as it can get away with it. A creature operating alone > is one operating more basically and outside the sphere of rights > and responsibility. Rights only arise in a social context. An individual > without a group has infinite "freedom-to" and zero "freedom-from" > > 2) Rights arise only in conjunction with two other associated > concepts, the concept of group membership and the concept > of responsibility. Where others in ones group don't accept > responsibility one does not have an actual right. Rights and > responsibilities must balance. Group membership is where > individuals forgo some "freedom-to"s in exchange for some > "freedom-froms". > > 3) The only rights a group member has are those that the group > can underwrite for its members by drawing on the reservoir of > member responsibility. The books must balance: rights cannot > exist where responsibility for underwriting them and the > resource to do it don't exist. > > 4) Laws are the means by which groups manage the balance > between rights and responsibility but only for their members > (citizens). > > 5) Groups (families, tribes, nations) can and will compete and > conflict unless they can pool their members and align their rights > and responsibilities. > > There are no mystical rights - the mystics are trying to re-allocate > real world resources when they talk of such rights - and to the > extent that they do they diminsh the resource pool to underwrite > responsibilities such as duty of care to group members. > > The above is quick and crude but maybe a beginning. > > Brett Paatsch > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Aug 22 14:18:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? Message-ID: <20040822141815.9100.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Michael Badnarik, of Texas, is the LP candidate. go to http://www.lp.org for details. I spent some time getting to know him last nov when he gave his weekend course on the constitution. He is great fellow. --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > > > Mike Lorrey > > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > > I can easily imagine government provided healthcare wiping out > > > much non-government based healthcare choice. > > > > It is on rare occasion that Samantha and I agree on things. I too will > > vote for Badnarik... > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Oy, hell hath frozen solid. I simultaneously agree with > both Samantha and Mike on a political issue. I three will > vote for Badnarik. > > spike > > ps: Badnarik who? Does she have a first name? A website? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From sentience at pobox.com Sun Aug 22 14:24:25 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 10:24:25 -0400 Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) In-Reply-To: <01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net><027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <4128AC99.9090503@pobox.com> Brett Paatsch wrote: > > 1) The rights one assumes for oneself are meaningless as rights. > Any creature can pursue its own interests any way it likes and > for so long as it can get away with it. A creature operating alone > is one operating more basically and outside the sphere of rights > and responsibility. Rights only arise in a social context. An individual > without a group has infinite "freedom-to" and zero "freedom-from" An individual of a species that has existed for evolutionary time in a regime that includes social groups may have a cognitive concept of rights that is internalized, intrinsic to the individual. Even though that psychology would never have evolved without a group context, it now exists as an adaptation, independent of the ancestral conditions that rendered it adaptive. I don't think it's a contradiction in terms to say that some of the things I choose to do myself, what a literally minded philosopher of selfishness would define as "my interests" (e.g., saving the world and not being a jerk in doing so), arise from my psychological perception of the rights of others. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From pharos at gmail.com Sun Aug 22 15:46:18 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:46:18 +0100 Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) In-Reply-To: <20040822141016.79188.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040822141016.79188.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 07:10:16 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > while rights confer responsibility, it is stil only resp for ones self, > and to others in that one does not violate the life liberty or property > of another. putting another at risk is not a violation of rights, and > even todays courts still recognise this. no harm equls no foul. I hesitate to wade into a 'rights' discussion as they all tend to end up neck-deep in the swamp fighting alligators, but Mike's brief comment seemed to indicate support for the old 'Do no harm' system of morality. I thought that it had been well demonstrated that acts of omission can cause just as much harm as harmful acts committed. Although humans do seem to have an inbuilt preference that acts of omission are less reprehensible. BillK From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Aug 22 16:41:18 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 09:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco In-Reply-To: <4128B1D2.6090609@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20040822164118.52945.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- David wrote: > However, I was originally referring to temporary > losses of performance > being supported by team-mates, whereas in most other > environments > support consists of warnings to "look busy 'cause > the boss is coming". Ah. Although, would not permanent deficits - like the honest lack of knowledge as to how to do a task - also be supported? "You don't know how to do this, yet you must or we'll all suffer. So let's all figure out how your task can be done." > Hmm. Another thought about fixing others - it may be > that many things > that need "fixing" are not necessarily broken, but > may be just > incompatibilities. Many, certainly, but I wonder if this is or is not the majority - as opposed to cases where things truly are "broken", in this case defined as a condition where the same or a similar problem would be faced no matter who the "broken" person worked with (aside from extreme cases, like those who would simply do that person's job in order to negate the "malfunction"). The anecdotal evidence of my own career suggests that most of the time, when difficulties erupt, it is because people truly are "broken" in that manner, although usually this can be taken care of through training. From wingcat at pacbell.net Sun Aug 22 18:08:31 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Electability of minor party candidates In-Reply-To: <20040822141815.9100.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040822180831.73868.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Michael Badnarik, of Texas, is the LP candidate. go > to > http://www.lp.org for details. > > I spent some time getting to know him last nov when > he gave his weekend > course on the constitution. He is great fellow. But even if it weren't for issues of ballot and media access, et al (which, to be fair, I think he has a valid point on, but that's another story), he sadly wouldn't be electable even if he were the Democratic or Republican nominee. A few quotes from his site, and attributed to him by articles: > If I have a "hot button" issue, this is definitely > it. (Appeals to emotion aside, this strength of emotion will gain some support from those you agree with, but alienate all those who oppose you on the issue. It also invites attacks; see Kerry's relatively muted promotion of his military service, and the reaction thereto.) > The Bush administration plans to re-institute the > draft after the election (suspected and hinted at, but not proven) > If I concede that the government can stop you from > having an F-16, I'm conceding the right of > government to regulate (Many people can see the potential for private armies poised to overthrow the legitimate government. Label them "terrorists" for added impact...) And then there's the silence on major items that Democrats and Republicans pick up on as campaign topics. For instance, stem cell research. One can reasonably infer that, while he'd be against federal funding of stem cell research because it's federal funding, he would be for the continued legality of private reseach into theraputic uses, and perhaps even of reproductive cloning once that becomes viable. But nowhere on his site does he mention it. Both of the major parties were apparently taken a bit by surprise by stem cells' growing in importance as a political issue, but both of the major party candidates now have defined positions on the issue (though Bush only needed to reaffirm and clarify his existing position). Even if one disagrees with the major parties, one can still study their tactics and imitate the successful ones (at least, the ones one has money for). Failure to do that is not the fault of anyone else, but it does contribute to the minor parties' minor standings. From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 18:30:40 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:30:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0408132255ecc7765@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0408132255ecc7765@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5EE90D8E-F469-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 13, 2004, at 10:55 PM, Emlyn wrote: > I'll expound shortly on a half baked software development methodology > that I've got brewing in my head, tentatively tagged "disposable > code". The axioms are "assume you start with a few spectacular coders, > genius hackers, who can kind of work together, are individually > irreplaceable, and most of whom don't like working with each other. > What can you do?". It's a reaction to the regular methodologies > (standard big system & agile) which assume that you want to work with > endless fields of stupified code grinders, and that the brilliant > cowboys in the corner are a liability... > Perhaps I missed it but I saw nothing in a quick exploration of agile methodologies that implies that brilliant hackers are a liability. Please point out what you mean. Perhaps this perception is more of a question of management considering these folks liabilities than the methodology considering them thus. > I think it will combines with an idea I blogged in July called "Object > Bus" (dumb name), which is that you create a layer above messaging and > databases onto which you can put objects, from which you can retrieve > objects, including message sending style behaviour and database style > behaviour. The "space" of objects is above the machine level (many > machines can be involved, transparently). This way you can write lots > of little programs that just do a bit of something, interacting only > with the "object bus" and not with each other directly. From what > little I know of Java, this is a bit like Java spaces, but the > difference is that it is non language specific, meant to be dead easy > to use, and applicable to desktop apps as well as big enterprise > craziness. I wonder if a P2P approach under the covers could work > here? This goes on and on, see the July archive in my blog for more > detail. Sounds something like the "cloud of objects" notion from the 80s. There was a lot of rich thinking about OO systems, languages and methodologies back then that has mainly been ignored in the "real world" since. I've coded things roughly like this many times. Mostly management and most coders and most software business models don't get it. It is usually an uphill fight. Often you end up needing to nail down something to build the object cloud on top of. Like there usually is an underlying persistent model that has many alternate mappings to different kinds of database implementation. There is an underlying rock-bottom set of messaging assumptions that there may be different implementations of. Usually there is a lowest level communication method with which to coordinate the rest. > - samantha From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 18:49:23 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:49:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040815213172c33801@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040816033243.26292.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc040815213172c33801@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2004, at 9:31 PM, Emlyn wrote: > > I'm going to be inconsistent now and say that I think communication is > strongly necessary in a development team. But it doesn't have to be > done entirely by the coders themselves, especially if they aren't > people people. Better to get rid of the idea of team leader and go for > a communcation facilitator, someone who runs around (b&m or > virtually), talks to everyone, keeps an idea of how things are going, > and helps those people who need to talk to actually talk. For the most > part, when two bits of system written by two seperate people need to > talk, they don't really need rigorous API definitions imposed from > above, they just need to communicate, with help if necessary. Two > smart coders can work that stuff out between them. > Yes, but it is a minimal requirement that someone does work out the API for the parts to inter-communicate reasonably early. If N bits need to talk then someone needs to put together a workable bit of inter-communication infrastructure that the team agrees to use to tie the bits together. It can't just be thrown together and grudgingly accepted for each hacker to get own with his/her bit. It is effectively a joint context within which the rest will be done. Get it wrong and it won't matter how brilliant the bits are. Many large systems bite at this level. Also, not all genius hackers are created equal. Some of them are great on the "bits". The rarer ones are good software architects/system designers. Good design esthetics is a rare commodity even among brilliant hackers. This stuff is even harder to get management to recognize. > >> >>> and >>> distributed systems >>> composed almost solely of loosely coupled small >>> pieces, so that the >>> overall central control of the api is less >>> necessary, >> >> You don't directly need central control of the API. >> You do need a central document source, > > Yes, I agree with this. Top level stuff is most important; which bits > talk to which other bits and why (how is also good, but less > important). Language determines thought to a seldom appreciated degree. The how is language. Get it wrong and the system becomes clumsy and limited. > > >> For >> large groups, this can be done semi-autonomously - if >> (and only if) the involved parties can agree to it. > > I guess I've addressed this above, I agree. It depends on the task > too; an interface between two components is easier to negotiate ad-hoc > than an interface used by half of the teams in an organisation. > Yep. >> But as you said, this is for a project where the >> independent coders don't talk to each other very well, >> thus the need for central control: to facilitate >> communication and make sure some agreement is reached. > > I never like this, because people are too likely to let the api be set > in stone and kludge around it rather than changing it when necessary. > A good principle to keep in mind is the ability to extend your api > without breaking old stuff, covers a lot of the ground of adapting > your api. > > My alternative to central control is yet again to have someone who > primarily facilitates (subtly forces :-)) communication. You can call > this person team lead, or head chat monkey, it matters not. But the > role is kind of coach/mentor/facilitator, and requires a really good > communicator (who is also technically competent if not excellent). > Communication alone is not enough. You have to recognize that some people are good at system wide architecture and others are not. You have to have the former create the weave the rest use to connect their modules and work within. There really does need to be an overall architect that does the deep thinking about the whole beast not only in relation to current requirement but in relation to its ease of maintenance including possible future evolution and entanglement with other systems. Very few think at this level. Even fewer organizations both understand and support this level of thinking and design. It is not enough to have everyone just talk to each other. Not by a long shot. - samantha From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 18:56:42 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 11:56:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <000b01c48369$a6b8cc30$852c2dcb@homepc> References: <000b01c48369$a6b8cc30$852c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <01CB5A5B-F46D-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 16, 2004, at 1:18 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Brent Neal wrote: > >> .. voting on the principle of least incompetence. > > If only it would catch on. > >> http://www.reason.com/0408/fe.bd.john.shtm > > Good article. Maybe some will read excerpts that won't read > 16 pages. > > " ..by virtue of our abdication, a very authoritarian, assertive > form of government has taken over. And oddly enough, it is > doing so in the guise of libertarianism to a certain extent. Most > of the people in the think tanks behind the Bush administration?s > current policies are libertarians, or certainly free marketeers. I am sorry but the current government-corporate love-in has nothing to do with free markets. With the exception of Cato, none of the major think tanks remotely qualify as or claim to be libertarian AFAIK. This is a gross insult to libertarians by those who haven't the foggiest idea what libertarianism or free markets are about. > We?ve got two distinct strains of libertarianism, and the > hippie-mystic strain is not engaging in politics, and the Ayn > Rand strain is basically dismantling government in a way that > is giving complete open field running to multinational > corporatism." > OK, this is sloppy far beyond any need to deal with it further. > -s From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 19:05:03 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:05:03 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Some ideas... dumped In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C18688C-F46E-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 16, 2004, at 7:50 AM, Brian Lee wrote: > > I reflect back on projects I've worked on: successful and unsuccessful > and it seems like vision is the most important piece. I've been on 6 > month projects with 4 people and no management. We had no > documentation, no project plan, and we generated a full product that > made millions its first year. Then I saw that same project add 40 > people, multiple levels of management, project managers, product > managers, qa, qt, etc etc and it took forever to get a new module out. > The key difference was that in the beginning the four of us had a > vision of what we were creating and worked toward the common goal. Yes, the "vision" thing is a very important key. Also, I've noticed that 4 person (or so) software teams gell much more easily into something greater than the sum of the individual talents and energy where larger more complex teams almost never do. I think this says something important about the type of thinking and synergy software requires and the overhead of inter-person communication. > > Later, no one really knew what they had to do and were just sort of > "going through the motions". > > My preferred method of development is a very small, talented team with > no management at first. There should be at least 1-2 "businessy" progs > who can speak with investors and other business units to convey the > message, but still able to generate clean code. Then the other 1-3 > should just be hard core developers who can all understand (in theory) > what the other developers are working on so they know what to code > next. Yes. I usually tell managers (when they will listen) that there highest level functions are to keep the lights on and as much as possible to keep the rest of the company off the backs of the team so they can do the work. Micro-management kills individual responsibility and innovation dead. Failure to create a stable bubble insulating the team from company froth greatly harms and slows down the work. > > Of course, it's virtually impossible to find a small team of mad > genius coders with a unified vision so I'm still waiting :/ > > I have had the joy of working with one. But our insulation got rotted away and one by one we lost people. - samantha From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 19:07:27 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:07:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <10F50CBF-EFB0-11D8-B246-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com> <7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <007501c4839a$31b675a0$852c2dcb@homepc> <10F50CBF-EFB0-11D8-B246-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <81FC820A-F46E-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> I found it rather depressing. I forget how many people just haven't a clue. -s On Aug 16, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > > Since yesterday there has been back-and-forth on Slashdot.org about > the Singularity. > > Some nice points are made, but from a Sociological standpoint it an > interesting slice of humanity to observe the reaction of. > Just thought ppl might want to catch it. Slow news day, as they say. > > http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/15/ > 1642243&tid=214&tid=192&tid=14&tid=6 > > ]3 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 19:23:35 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:23:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mike, Please show your argument. I doubt very much that anything remotely approaching 50% of the taxpayers pay no taxes due to income tax credit. I doubt 50% of taxpayers even consider using this or, if they do consider it, can get any benefit out of it. - samantha On Aug 17, 2004, at 6:30 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> /APWires/headlines/D84GNDMG1.html > > Of course, the expansion of the earned income tax credit to help the > bottom 50% pay no income taxes at all had nothing to do with the > increased tax burden for the middle class... > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 19:25:16 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:25:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Where would you draw the line before someone is among the "wealthiest". The way some people draw it most professionals making over $100K are among the "wealthiest". That would endanger a great number of people I know. - samantha On Aug 17, 2004, at 9:42 AM, Kevin Freels wrote: > > >>> New government data also shows that President Bush's tax cuts have >>> shifted >>> the overall tax burden to the middle class from the wealthiest >>> Americans.: > > It's always been my impression that the wealthiest Americans represent > such > a small portion of the nation that the middle class has always carried > the > burden. EVen with a flat tax, the wealthiest Americans would be paying > more > in dollars than the average Joe. Why is it that people think they > should > also pay a higher percentage even though it has minimal impact on the > overall revenues? I am so glad I'm not wealthy because I would be > perpetually pissed about everyone always expecting me to pay an ever > increasing "fair share". > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 19:26:33 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 12:26:33 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tax Burden Gap In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040817125552.01d2eec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20040817133039.28579.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040817125552.01d2eec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <2D331401-F471-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Please clarify a bit. What are we including as "wealth" in the statements below? Is it a static model of "wealth"? - samantha On Aug 17, 2004, at 10:58 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 11:42 AM 8/17/2004 -0500, Kevin wrote: > >> It's always been my impression that the wealthiest Americans >> represent such >> a small portion of the nation that the middle class has always >> carried the >> burden. > > Look at some data. > > http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2003/03may/may03interviewswolff.html > > < In the United States, the richest 1 percent of households owns 38 > percent of all wealth. > > > > > Wolff: The top 5 percent own more than half of all wealth. > > In 1998, they owned 59 percent of all wealth. Or to put it another > way, the top 5 percent had more wealth than the remaining 95 percent > of the population, collectively. > > The top 20 percent owns over 80 percent of all wealth. In 1998, it > owned 83 percent of all wealth. > > This is a very concentrated distribution. > > > Whether this is a good or bad thing is another matter. > > Damien Broderick > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From etcs.ret at verizon.net Sun Aug 22 20:12:21 2004 From: etcs.ret at verizon.net (stencil) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 16:12:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The "wasted" Libertarian vote In-Reply-To: <200408221800.i7MI0D001733@tick.javien.com> References: <200408221800.i7MI0D001733@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: The rule by which your State instructs its electors http://www.fairvote.org/e_college/problems.htm has a lot to do with personal voting strategies. If you know your State's electors all will go to Kerry (as in Massachusetts) you have greater incentive to vote Libertarian than if you're voting in a releatively close contest. You cannot affect the *outcome* of the race, but there is a greater likelihood that both parties will respond to the off-axis vector of your minority, in planning for the midterm elections. If you really can't predict the outcome, and you perceive any difference at all between Bulganin and Kruschchev, you take the lesser, lest your swing vote give the State to the wrong weasel. Unless, of course, you really are committed to the Party of Principle. stencil sends From samantha at objectent.com Sun Aug 22 21:11:39 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 14:11:39 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Aug 18, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Spike wrote: > > Most would agree that there is a growing threat to > western civilization of an attack by some sort of > weapons of mass destruction: bio, gas or nuke. Sure since the west is insisting on throwing its weight behind blatantly irrational and oppressive acts. > We > are developing antimissile tech, but seems to me > another parallel defense would be to encourage > urban sprawl. An enormous smeared out suburbs > would be far less vulnerable to attack than an > enormous highly concentrated city, would it not? > The argument is made that urban sprawl is bad for > wildlife, but the alternative may encourage an > attack which would be bad for both humans and > wildlife. Perhaps cities have outlived their > usefulness. > Solves the wrong problem. Being more peaceable and civilized with others would reduce the risk a lot faster. And no, changing our behavior does not mean "the terrorists won". It means we decided to act according to our own supposed standards and take some responsibility. Rebuilding our cities, yanking our freedoms, treating everyone as a suspect terrorist, even citizens, just so we can "show em" that we are untouchable and can and will do whatever we please and there isn't a thing "they" can do about it is insanity. - samantha From sjvans at ameritech.net Sun Aug 22 23:40:03 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 18:40:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield> On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 16:11, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Sure since the west is insisting on throwing its weight behind > blatantly irrational and oppressive acts. I know I'm going to regret asking, but *what* blatantly irrational and oppressive acts? From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 23 00:04:34 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:04:34 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Science's babies - An article on therapeutic cloning in Britain Message-ID: <020501c488a4$c5cc2140$362c2dcb@homepc> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/22/1093113048325.html "In Britain, a group of scientists is about to start cloning human embryos to develop new treatments for diseases such as diabetes. Ian Sample explains what happens next." ... 'Rather than therapeutic cloning becoming a therapy in its own right, it is its usefulness as a tool for studying disease, as demonstrated by Jaenisch, that will really have an impact, says Irving Weissman, a developmental biologist at Stanford University. "For me, the greatest and most important thing that'll come from this is a whole new platform to understand human genetic diseases," Weissman says. "For the first time ever, you can have the authentic human disease to work on, right there in cells in front of you." Irving says the technique will allow scientists to study some of the best-known genetic diseases, from diabetes to early-onset heart disease, find out precisely what genetic fault is responsible, and from that develop ways of treating them. Irving is one of the optimists. "Anyone who says therapeutic cloning won't happen based on where we are today is naive. It's wrong to hype it as something that will happen in the next five years, but it will happen," he says.' ------- Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 02:02:06 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:32:06 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <1092996479.5587.258.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <710b78fc04082001081ee5a951@mail.gmail.com> <1092996479.5587.258.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <710b78fc040822190240a8fc04@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:07:59 +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > On Fri, 2004-08-20 at 17:38 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > Watch it a few times and feel your jaw hit the floor... > > http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo23.mpg > > > don't forget > http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo25.mpg > http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo84.mpg > http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2004/0810/robo85.mpg > > but if you like this kind of stuff, have a look at omnihead's robot (ie > everything at the bottom of http://www.vstone.co.jp/e/rt01e.htm ) and > khr1's robot > (the wow robot version: http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/wow-robot- > khr1-017324.php , not the kaist version (those are amazing as well, but > they are not $2000 toys)) i can't find where i got the videos from. > try looking for them, they are most impressive (some here > http://www.kopropo.co.jp/Movie/2004SHS%20KRSDEMO.wmv ... apparently humanoid robots can do backflips and cartwheels. I had trouble believing my eyes. Incredible (and cool as f*?k). -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 23 02:36:40 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040822190240a8fc04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040823023640.32867.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > ... apparently humanoid robots can do backflips and > cartwheels. I had > trouble believing my eyes. Incredible (and cool as > f*?k). A chain of thought I've been having, which this reinforces: Take basic robotics research, as applied to humanoid frames. Follow it on its current path until, for whatever purpose (entertainment, military, etc.), human-sized, human-shaped robots with human-equivalent manipulation ability become available. The hardware is what's important here; the software would, say, allow it to perform pre-programmed dance steps or walk along a path as a "human drone" for military training, but it would be no more creative or free willed than today's robots. Is there any logical doubt, given these toys being available today, that this is likely within the next 20 years? (Being conservative here - less than 10 might be more accurate.) If not, then this frame will likely have some cargo capacity somewhere within its body - probably its head and/or torso. And some extra power capacity, enough to power the life support unit for a brain, and wire it up to the sensors and motors, and possible hormone synthesizers to replicate the missing organs (as part of life support). If there's a lot of cargo capacity, more of the body can be encapsulated as a preliminary measure, while researching how to support just the brain (primarily, figuring out the hormone balance and neuron wiring). Is there any logical doubt that this would be likely within 20 years of the above? (Again, being conservative.) Once that happens, there exists a powerful symbol for taking the last step, which is likely to focus and drive AI research into uploads. Which therefore makes this seem the most likely "default" path to SIs, if nothing is done to force another path before then. As nasty as human beings can be towards one another, few - and none that are likely to gather the resources to be among the first uploads - are as sociopathic as "pure" AIs, which would have no pre-AI socialization, are feared by some to be. (One might take it a bit further and wonder if research into "pure" AIs thus makes anti-Friendly AIs actually more likely, but at this early stage, that's way too difficult to determine to be worth any action, or even much serious thought...again, at this time.) From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Aug 23 02:47:11 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:47:11 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00dd01c488bb$7d4bd480$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Samantha Atkins > Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 2:12 PM > On Aug 18, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Spike wrote: > > > Most would agree that there is a growing threat to > > western civilization of an attack by some sort of > > weapons of mass destruction: bio, gas or nuke. > > Sure since the west... The west? > ...is insisting on throwing its weight behind > blatantly irrational... As blatantly irrational as murdering 3000 innocent internationals who did nothing more evil than to work in a really tall office building? > ...and oppressive acts... As oppressive as the way the Taliban and Al Qaida treats its women and non-muslims? > Solves the wrong problem. Being more peaceable and civilized with > others would reduce the risk a lot faster... So why not do both? Estimate the probability that the west will change its behavior. Estimate the probability that civilization will soon realize that technology now allows us to spread out. Cities have outlived most of their usefulness, but not their desireability as terrorist targets. spike From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 03:11:13 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 12:41:13 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823023640.32867.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823023640.32867.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0408222011386224e6@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 19:36:40 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > ... apparently humanoid robots can do backflips and > > cartwheels. I had > > trouble believing my eyes. Incredible (and cool as > > f*?k). > > A chain of thought I've been having, which this > reinforces: > > Take basic robotics research, as applied to humanoid > frames. Follow it on its current path until, for > whatever purpose (entertainment, military, etc.), > human-sized, human-shaped robots with > human-equivalent manipulation ability become > available. The hardware is what's important here; the > software would, say, allow it to perform > pre-programmed dance steps or walk along a path as a > "human drone" for military training, but it would be > no more creative or free willed than today's robots. > Is there any logical doubt, given these toys being > available today, that this is likely within the next > 20 years? (Being conservative here - less than 10 > might be more accurate.) > > If not, then this frame will likely have some cargo > capacity somewhere within its body - probably its head > and/or torso. And some extra power capacity, enough > to power the life support unit for a brain, and wire > it up to the sensors and motors, and possible hormone > synthesizers to replicate the missing organs (as part > of life support). If there's a lot of cargo capacity, > more of the body can be encapsulated as a preliminary > measure, while researching how to support just the > brain (primarily, figuring out the hormone balance and > neuron wiring). Is there any logical doubt that this > would be likely within 20 years of the above? (Again, > being conservative.) > > Once that happens, there exists a powerful symbol for > taking the last step, which is likely to focus and > drive AI research into uploads. Which therefore makes > this seem the most likely "default" path to SIs, if > nothing is done to force another path before then. As > nasty as human beings can be towards one another, few > - and none that are likely to gather the resources to > be among the first uploads - are as sociopathic as > "pure" AIs, which would have no pre-AI socialization, > are feared by some to be. (One might take it a bit > further and wonder if research into "pure" AIs thus > makes anti-Friendly AIs actually more likely, but at > this early stage, that's way too difficult to > determine to be worth any action, or even much serious > thought...again, at this time.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > I'd like to see how far this stuff ("toy" humanoid robots) is informing the area of medical prostheses for the disabled. If I were a quadriplegic or similar, I'd be looking at these 'bots and rubbing my hands together (urr) with glee. And the timeframes that Adrian mentions seem realistic; I'd be thinking I could be mobile again within a decade. We'll know we're moving in the right direction when we see the ads for the televised grudge match... "This Saturday Night on MechWars... Reeve vs Hawking! See them slug it out 'bot style, in the Beauty vs Brains contest of the millenium!" -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 23 03:42:23 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0408222011386224e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040823034223.16891.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > I'd like to see how far this stuff ("toy" humanoid > robots) is > informing the area of medical prostheses for the > disabled. If I were a > quadriplegic or similar, I'd be looking at these > 'bots and rubbing my > hands together (urr) with glee. And the timeframes > that Adrian > mentions seem realistic; I'd be thinking I could be > mobile again > within a decade. So far? Not much. Robots that can walk are relatively new, and the human brain can already handle the software needs. I'd say the other way around is more likely at this time: good arms and legs have been developed for prostheses; these can also be used, with some programming, for androids. When the entire shell is ready, then we may see some wonder if quadriplegics could make use of "walking wheelchairs". > We'll know we're moving in the right direction when > we see the ads for > the televised grudge match... "This Saturday Night > on MechWars... > Reeve vs Hawking! See them slug it out 'bot style, > in the Beauty vs > Brains contest of the millenium!" Better: when field trials begin for remote-controlled androids to replace infantry, which have been the core of Western armed forces from before their formal classification as "infantry" right up to the present. (Tanks may rule the field, planes the sky, and ships the sea...but by themselves, they all suck at taking cities, which is usually the ultimate objective.) Or when you can buy an anthropomorphic robot for conducting high-dexterity tasks in high-hazard areas (where the main reason not to send a human is that the human might get injured or killed, but either the task is known to be too complex for simple robots, or the task is not known and requires a highly adaptable tool...and humans have all kinds of practice adapting their bodies to various tasks). From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 03:49:12 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:19:12 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823034223.16891.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823034223.16891.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040822204913c37ddb@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 20:42:23 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > I'd like to see how far this stuff ("toy" humanoid > > robots) is > > informing the area of medical prostheses for the > > disabled. If I were a > > quadriplegic or similar, I'd be looking at these > > 'bots and rubbing my > > hands together (urr) with glee. And the timeframes > > that Adrian > > mentions seem realistic; I'd be thinking I could be > > mobile again > > within a decade. > > So far? Not much. Robots that can walk are > relatively new, and the human brain can already > handle the software needs. I'd say the other way > around is more likely at this time: good arms and legs > have been developed for prostheses; these can also be > used, with some programming, for androids. > > When the entire shell is ready, then we may see some > wonder if quadriplegics could make use of "walking > wheelchairs". > > > We'll know we're moving in the right direction when > > we see the ads for > > the televised grudge match... "This Saturday Night > > on MechWars... > > Reeve vs Hawking! See them slug it out 'bot style, > > in the Beauty vs > > Brains contest of the millenium!" > > Better: when field trials begin for remote-controlled > androids to replace infantry, which have been the core > of Western armed forces from before their formal > classification as "infantry" right up to the present. > (Tanks may rule the field, planes the sky, and ships > the sea...but by themselves, they all suck at taking > cities, which is usually the ultimate objective.) > > Or when you can buy an anthropomorphic robot for > conducting high-dexterity tasks in high-hazard areas > (where the main reason not to send a human is that the > human might get injured or killed, but either the task > is known to be too complex for simple robots, or the > task is not known and requires a highly adaptable > tool...and humans have all kinds of practice adapting > their bodies to various tasks). > A dumb question... all of this work (or the great majority) seems to be happening in Japan. Does that sound right? I know they want humanoid robots to care for their aging population, and they seem to be well on track. Is anyone else bothering to make these things? Regarding the Japanese efforts, I get the impression that the money coming from the top to build a robot based service industry is being met with engineering excellence at the bottom, coming out of a very pro-robot popular culture. It seems like a combination of manga and xenophobia may well have produced the leading edge in robotics. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 23 04:15:52 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040822204913c37ddb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040823041552.98361.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > A dumb question... all of this work (or the great > majority) seems to > be happening in Japan. Does that sound right? The robots themselves? Yes. My impression was that America does more of the prosthetics work. > I know > they want > humanoid robots to care for their aging population, > and they seem to > be well on track. Is anyone else bothering to make > these things? There are a handful of exoskeleton projects, mostly for military use, mostly in America. I'm thinking one of these projects, or its successors, might think along these lines. > Regarding the Japanese efforts, I get the impression > that the money > coming from the top to build a robot based service > industry is being > met with engineering excellence at the bottom, > coming out of a very > pro-robot popular culture. It seems like a > combination of manga and > xenophobia may well have produced the leading edge > in robotics. Manga and xenophobia have played their roles, but they are hardly responsible for even a majority of this. Having to focus on making good use of what one can import, rather than being able to simply extract resources from the ground directly, has also played a role. So has an ability to play to the Asian markets as an industrialized nation without being part of "the West" (North America, South America, Europe, and to some extent Australia) while the West viewed them as a good ally. (Quick question: which one does not make Bushco worry - China, Korea, or Japan?) I'd say the thing most responsible is an aging population, and the perception that Japan must take care of its elderly - especially those elderly who have the money to invest in making their own future better. (You think the AARP's got a lot of political weight? They dream of having Japan-grade pull.) If a lot of Americans thought it likely that they would live to be past 100, but that this would be a decrepit old age *unless* they took action now to reverse that decrepity, you might see the same sort of investment in personal futures in America, too. (And possibly in the environment: not messing up the planet because it'd spoil future generations' enjoyment is one thing; not messing up the planet because it'd spoil your own future enjoyment is another.) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Aug 23 04:21:18 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:51:18 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823041552.98361.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823041552.98361.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0408222121132facee@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:15:52 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > I'd say the thing most responsible is an aging > population, and the perception that Japan must take > care of its elderly - especially those elderly who > have the money to invest in making their own future > better. (You think the AARP's got a lot of political > weight? They dream of having Japan-grade pull.) If a > lot of Americans thought it likely that they would > live to be past 100, but that this would be a decrepit > old age *unless* they took action now to reverse that > decrepity, you might see the same sort of investment > in personal futures in America, too. (And possibly in > the environment: not messing up the planet because > it'd spoil future generations' enjoyment is one thing; > not messing up the planet because it'd spoil your own > future enjoyment is another.) > This is what I was refering to when I said "xenophobia". After all, the problem of the aging population in western countries would be easily solved by letting in all the abled bodied people from poor countries who want in. In a world chock-full of people, deciding to build robots to perform the tasks people usually do is a really weird choice. Not that I'm complaining, those robots are cool, but come on, is that country being run by Bob the Angry Flower?? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From samantha at objectent.com Mon Aug 23 04:50:54 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:50:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fahrenheit 911 - objective review? In-Reply-To: <00fc01c487ea$beecbf20$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <000001c4814c$43b5ebf0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <0A04A08B-EDA2-11D8-B3DD-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <007701c481bb$89e12e40$852c2dcb@homepc> <00022870-F3A1-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <00fc01c487ea$beecbf20$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <03EA8148-F4C0-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 21, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> On Aug 13, 2004, at 9:59 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > >>> If you expect that either Kerry or Bush will win and >>> consequently hold the power of the office for four years >>> why wouldn't you vote for whichever of those you dislike >>> the least? >> >> What for? So I can say that my choice won? I would rather say >> that I voted for the candidate and party that actually stood for what >> I believe in. Frankly I think both Kerry and Bush are a disastrous >> choice. I cannot in good conscience vote for either one of them. > > No, to minimise the damage, where damage is damage or harm as > *you* see it. Harm to *you* and to the principles or values that > *you* support whatever they are. > What do you mean "no"? I support liberty. Neither of the major candidate seem particularly concerned with that. I support lowering the federal budget (balanced is only a beginning. Both major candidates will impoverish the country more. I support stopping the rule by terror that we inflict on ourselves. Both of the major candidates will increase it. I support the immediate end of the Iraq travesty. Both of the major candidates would send more troops. I support less federal intrusion in most areas of our lives. Both candidates support more intrusion. Why would I vote for so much that I oppose? The lesser of two evils is still EVIL. > If Badarnik can't win the presidency this time around (in your opinion) > then you must know that someone else will win it this time around. > It is quite improbable he will win. But how does this make him or the Libertarians any less the proper choice for me? If he doesn't win then of course I know someone else will. DUH. What are you getting at here? > And you must know that you and everyone else will live with the > consequences for four years. > Yes. We will most likely live with the consequences of Bush or Kerry as a president. I think the next four years will be hell with either choice. I don't endorse metaphorical death by strangling or death by burning. I choose what I consider on the side of life and liberty. That it has very little chance this time does not make it any less the moral choice. >>> The reason I ask is that I get that neither Bush or Kerry appeal >>> and I get that a lot of people think it won't make much difference >>> but I can think of two grounds on which I think it will make a >>> practical difference. >>> >>> 1) International law (or just plain old rule-of-law period) >>> >>> Kerry does not yet have conspicuous bad form as the head of >>> state of a permanent security council member that invaded a >>> foreign country. >> >> Ah, but he says that even knowing what we know now that he >> would have invaded Iraq! > > I haven't read or heard him say that directly but I accept that what > you > are saying is likely to be the case. And it would be a decisive point > against Kerry in my opinion were Bush not saying the same thing. So the fact that they are both damn fools or worse makes it more palatable to vote for either of them? > > It would be a decisive point for me because I see the maintainence > and development of international law especially in the area of peace > and security as the highest priority. Without it free trade isn't free > trade is something muddleheaded or underhanded. > I agree with you about "free trade" as practiced under WTO not being really about free trade at all. > But this is where politics gets tricky. It could be that neither Kerry > nor Bush give a damn about international law or even that both do > but think that the average voter doesn't (and they may be right). > That its too esoteric. > Personally I demand that who I vote for at least gives a damn about justice. What we are doing in Iraq is not just. What passes for criminal justice in the US is not justice. The "war on drugs is not just. The Iraq War is draining us economically, in the eyes of the world and harming or own morale. The Patriot and other unseemly acts are undercutting the very freedom America is supposed to stand for. Going to war was based on supposition and lies. I cannot in good conscience vote for anyone who would say that it was the right thing to do even knowing everything we know now. How could anyone trust someone like that? > Politically it is likely (to say the least) that Bush can't say he > regrets > invading Iraq over WMD's in hindsight (there is still a war on!) and There is a misguided atrocious war in Iraq that he insisted on starting. If he is not man enough to own up to the mistake then we need someone who is. It looks like that isn't Kerry. > Kerry is in the same situation (ie. there will still be a war on and > Kerry will still have voted "for it" in simple speak - though I'm not > sure its quite that simple - its not the same for Congress to vote to > empower the President with a full range of options - including the > military one as it is for the President to mistakenly go with the > military one - which is what I think actually happened). > So if you do something stupid and horrific and you are running for office you have to pretend that it was a good idea and swear you would do it again? > To get elected Kerry may be making himself seem like Bush-lite > (to use Mike's term) on issues that won't matter to the majority > of voters. Have we become such a cynical and empty people that one must lie and hide one's values to be elected leader of the mess? > I think Mike is likely right in that he won't be quite so > Bush-lite the other side of the election. That is what makes it hard. > He'll probably be more like a traditional democrat and drift to the > left after the election and were I a tax paying American living within > the fortress and looking for relief as my number one issue that might > influence me more than it does as an Australian. My main issue is freedom. A secondary issue is stripping government bloat and intrusion into our lives. Actually that is tied with not stripping me of my own life and energy to spend it on policies and practices that I consider an utter abomination. A tertiary issue is getting the religious right out of high office but not at the price of further socializing the country starting with medicine. I am a minarchist libertarian. I wish to see the government constrained to the limits imposed by the Constitution. I recognize it can't be done overnight. So we had best get started. > I like both major > electable parties close to the middle on the left-right dimension so > I'd not want a left drift but far more important to me I don't want > him to be anything like Bush in terms of his diplomatic skills. I want > him to be a whole lot better and he may be only a little bit better > (I can't imagine that he'd be worse than Bush diplomatically - in > diplomatic terms I think Bush might as well be completely crazy). > > To me Bush has had a chance as a diplomat and ought not under > any circumstances be given another. It would be dire for > international peace and security as the message that's going out > currently is pure 'might makes right'. Kerry hasn't had a chance > so diplomatically he is still something of a "clean skin". The indications are that he would extend many of the current policies but with more of a "coalition" behind the actions. > > >>> 2) Stem cell research. (When Bush goes so will his screwy >>> council on bioethics). >> >> Don't be so sure. I can easily imagine a bioethics council >> determining what government provided medical insurance should >> and should not cover. I can easily imagine government provided >> healthcare wiping out much non-government based healthcare >> choice. > > How sure should I be? :-) > > Do you imagine that Kerry will keep the President's Council on > Bioethics in the same form as it is now? > Perhaps not in the same form. But it is simple economics that his universal health insurance will be limited in what is covered. Using bioethical arguments is a very likely way to go about this. That the arguments may be less couched in religious terms (maybe) doesn't make it less dangerous. And yes, I believe he will keep nearly the same "President's Council" though the membership will shift. - samantha From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 23 04:56:44 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 21:56:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0408222121132facee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040823045644.29648.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > This is what I was refering to when I said > "xenophobia". After all, > the problem of the aging population in western > countries would be > easily solved by letting in all the abled bodied > people from poor > countries who want in. In a world chock-full of > people, deciding to > build robots to perform the tasks people usually do > is a really weird > choice. Not that I'm complaining, those robots are > cool, but come on, > is that country being run by Bob the Angry Flower?? The availability of immigrants does diminish the need for robotic labor in America, but even here, robots are being developed for elderly service. They're loyal 24/7, and (once built) they work for the cost of electricity and maintenance. That said, you are correct...but Japan is hardly alone in its stance. Most nations in North and South America were founded by immigrants, and remain open to immigration to this day. Most nations that were "pre-existing" before the modern concept of a nation came around (circa 1700s/1800s, I think) have, instead, a "we've always been here" mentality built into them, which automatically excludes those who weren't. Even the USA, over 200 years old now, is starting to show signs of this. One could do an interesting exercise in theoretical nation-building, to try to devise a state that would remain immigrant-friendly even when, eventually, the great majority of the population were native-born. Does one destroy the land or otherwise force emigration? Impractical to the extreme - and even then, people might stick together in their travels, once again excluding outsiders. Any legislative fix could eventually be overruled by the natives. And so forth. But that's another topic. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 23 05:44:11 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:44:11 +1000 Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net><027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc> <4128AC99.9090503@pobox.com> Message-ID: <024701c488d4$373b1640$362c2dcb@homepc> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > 1) The rights one assumes for oneself are meaningless as rights. > > Any creature can pursue its own interests any way it likes and > > for so long as it can get away with it. A creature operating alone > > is one operating more basically and outside the sphere of rights > > and responsibility. Rights only arise in a social context. An individual > > without a group has infinite "freedom-to" and zero "freedom-from" > > An individual of a species that has existed for evolutionary time in > a regime that includes social groups may have a cognitive concept > of rights that is internalized, intrinsic to the individual. Agreed, the individual may. > Even though that psychology would never have evolved without a > group context, it now exists as an adaptation, independent of the > ancestral conditions that rendered it adaptive. Agreed again. > I don't think it's a contradiction in terms to say that some of the > things I choose to do myself, what a literally minded philosopher > of selfishness would define as "my interests" (e.g., saving the world > and not being a jerk in doing so), arise from my psychological > perception of the rights of others. Perhaps not but I am not sure that we are conversing yet though. Have you stepped into my concept of rights to see if it works for you, is consistent and is perhaps useful, or are you using one of your own without stating what you mean by rights? >From where do you perceive that the rights or others derive? I outlined a sketch of where I think they derive that involved the concept of groups and responsibility. I'm arguing that there are no rights as rights other than those which a person (if we stick with our own species) has because they are a member of some group that will underwrite those rights with a group-backed assumption of aggregated other individual accepted responsibility. I would argue for instance that as a US citizen that you have no right to endless life (your fellow citizens cannot at present underwrite such a right for you as they do not have the wherewithal to prevent you from dying - even if they wanted to) rather you do have a right not to be murdered so long as your fellow citizens (group members) will collectively accept the responsibility for preventing your being murdered and for penalising anyone in or outside your group that murders you. I think this is an important topic and I'd be interested in pursuing it with you (you are worth disagreeing with or agreeing with) but I want to make sure that we are not talking past each other by using words like rights imprecisely. Regards, Brett Paatsch From samantha at objectent.com Mon Aug 23 05:56:56 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 22:56:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <00dd01c488bb$7d4bd480$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <00dd01c488bb$7d4bd480$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <3D9E1B0F-F4C9-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 22, 2004, at 7:47 PM, Spike wrote: >> Samantha Atkins >> Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 2:12 PM > >> On Aug 18, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Spike wrote: >> >>> Most would agree that there is a growing threat to >>> western civilization of an attack by some sort of >>> weapons of mass destruction: bio, gas or nuke. >> >> Sure since the west... > > The west? OK, restrict to US for now. > >> ...is insisting on throwing its weight behind >> blatantly irrational... > > As blatantly irrational as murdering 3000 innocent > internationals who did nothing more evil than to > work in a really tall office building? > Yes, the war in Iraq is as blatantly irrational. What about all the innocents we killed when we invaded? What about all those that tied in between the two Iraq wars that we accepted large responsibility for? >> ...and oppressive acts... > > As oppressive as the way the Taliban and Al Qaida > treats its women and non-muslims? > You bet. We even helped prop up the Taliban in earlier times. Hell we helped Saddam come to power. We won't even get into what evils we have supported in Israel. >> Solves the wrong problem. Being more peaceable and civilized with >> others would reduce the risk a lot faster... > > So why not do both? Estimate the probability that the > west will change its behavior. Estimate the probability > that civilization will soon realize that technology now > allows us to spread out. Cities have outlived most of > their usefulness, but not their desireability as terrorist > targets. spike > Doing both sounds good. I don't agree cities have outlived their usefulness though. At least I still enjoy a good metropolis now and again. - samantha From samantha at objectent.com Mon Aug 23 06:09:42 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 22 Aug 2004 23:09:42 -0700 Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) In-Reply-To: <024701c488d4$373b1640$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc> <4128AC99.9090503@pobox.com> <024701c488d4$373b1640$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <05CED995-F4CB-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 22, 2004, at 10:44 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > I'm arguing that there are no rights as rights other than those > which a person (if we stick with our own species) has because > they are a member of some group that will underwrite those rights > with a group-backed assumption of aggregated other individual > accepted responsibility. > I have heard this before. So you believe that if say, sharia law became universal on earth, that humans would have no rights whatsoever to oppose it? Or that they can oppose it but not on the grounds that it is a violation of their rights? You believe in short that rights are the gift of the state. Doesn't the nature of human beings imply some common requirements for their well being? Couldn't you derive rights from that common nature? > I would argue for instance that as a US citizen that you have no > right to endless life (your fellow citizens cannot at present > underwrite > such a right for you as they do not have the wherewithal to prevent > you from dying - even if they wanted to) Of course I don't have the right to demand anyone else undertake to support my life against their will for one moment, much less endlessly. But this does not mean that I do not have every right to seek to prolong my life indefinitely. You are confusing a right to attempt something, a negative right (freedom from coercion), from a positive right (a right to something to be provided by others). Non-contradictory notions of rights are largely negative rights (in a word, freedom). > rather you do have a right > not to be murdered so long as your fellow citizens (group members) > will collectively accept the responsibility for preventing your being > murdered and for penalising anyone in or outside your group that > murders you. So if your fellow citizens decide they hate your guts and that you aren't worth protecting that it is quite alright for them to kill you? - samantha From maxm at mail.tele.dk Mon Aug 23 06:22:38 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:22:38 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <00dd01c488bb$7d4bd480$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <00dd01c488bb$7d4bd480$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <41298D2E.5000407@mail.tele.dk> Spike wrote: >>...is insisting on throwing its weight behind >>blatantly irrational... > > As blatantly irrational as murdering 3000 innocent > internationals who did nothing more evil than to > work in a really tall office building? Spike, if you really are interrested in this subject, you should read some Noam Chumsky, or at least see some of his videos. He has some pretty strong examples on the above. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Aug 23 07:32:52 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:32:52 +1000 Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net><027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc><01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc><4128AC99.9090503@pobox.com><024701c488d4$373b1640$362c2dcb@homepc> <05CED995-F4CB-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <026d01c488e3$66413640$362c2dcb@homepc> Samantha: > I have heard this before. So you believe that if say, sharia law > became universal on earth, that humans would have no rights whatsoever > to oppose it? Or that they can oppose it but not on the grounds that > it is a violation of their rights? You believe in short that rights > are the gift of the state. Doesn't the nature of human beings imply > some common requirements for their well being? Couldn't you derive > rights from that common nature? You'd have to read *all* of the thread Samantha or you will just get your wires crossed. Brett Paatsch PS: I don't beLIEve anything. I know I have covered that before. From scerir at libero.it Mon Aug 23 08:11:34 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:11:34 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <001001c488e8$cefe77b0$3cba1b97@administxl09yj> From: "Spike" > An enormous smeared out suburbsb would be far less > vulnerable to attack than an enormous highly > concentrated city, would it not? Supposed Italian targets are: Assisi (town of San Francesco), Perugia (international university), Vatican City, Rome (the Colosseo!), Milan (the Duomo of -), Berlusconi's (prime minister) villas in Sardinia, Florence (museums), Venice (perhaps). That sort of places. If - as services say - these are the targets, in Italy, now, it means that they (wish to) attack "symbols", "icons", not people. s. From dwish at indco.net Mon Aug 23 13:24:02 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:24:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823045644.29648.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200408231232.i7NCWPS9004562@br549.indconet.com> I thought I should chime in on this thread. If the financial rate at which a human could own the robot was at the same or less than that of an immigrant worker or at best a little higher then I see this not being an issue at all. (i.e. ROI). It is all about money. If you can justify the cost you can justify the expense of the purchase. Just ask any IT dept. head about that. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 11:57 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! --- Emlyn wrote: > This is what I was refering to when I said > "xenophobia". After all, > the problem of the aging population in western > countries would be > easily solved by letting in all the abled bodied > people from poor > countries who want in. In a world chock-full of > people, deciding to > build robots to perform the tasks people usually do > is a really weird > choice. Not that I'm complaining, those robots are > cool, but come on, > is that country being run by Bob the Angry Flower?? The availability of immigrants does diminish the need for robotic labor in America, but even here, robots are being developed for elderly service. They're loyal 24/7, and (once built) they work for the cost of electricity and maintenance. That said, you are correct...but Japan is hardly alone in its stance. Most nations in North and South America were founded by immigrants, and remain open to immigration to this day. Most nations that were "pre-existing" before the modern concept of a nation came around (circa 1700s/1800s, I think) have, instead, a "we've always been here" mentality built into them, which automatically excludes those who weren't. Even the USA, over 200 years old now, is starting to show signs of this. One could do an interesting exercise in theoretical nation-building, to try to devise a state that would remain immigrant-friendly even when, eventually, the great majority of the population were native-born. Does one destroy the land or otherwise force emigration? Impractical to the extreme - and even then, people might stick together in their travels, once again excluding outsiders. Any legislative fix could eventually be overruled by the natives. And so forth. But that's another topic. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 13:25:50 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:25:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <01CB5A5B-F46D-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040823132550.64218.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Aug 16, 2004, at 1:18 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > " ..by virtue of our abdication, a very authoritarian, assertive > > form of government has taken over. And oddly enough, it is > > doing so in the guise of libertarianism to a certain extent. Most > > of the people in the think tanks behind the Bush administration?s > > current policies are libertarians, or certainly free marketeers. > > I am sorry but the current government-corporate love-in has nothing > to > do with free markets. With the exception of Cato, none of the major > think tanks remotely qualify as or claim to be libertarian AFAIK. > This is a gross insult to libertarians by those who haven't the > foggiest idea what libertarianism or free markets are about. Well then, you don't know. Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform is very influential in that they've proposed all of the tax cuts that Bush has instigated, Norquist is a common face in the White House, and his Wednesday luncheons at his HQ are a must-attend event for conservo-libertarian movers and shakers. In the 1970's Norquist co-authored a book on taxes with Tim Condon, who is currently director of participant services at the Free State Project. Norquist has been pioneering, according to knowledgable sources, in melding industry money with conservative/libertarian causes and politicians. He annoys many social conservatives like Tucker Carlson, who refers to him as "a little creep". > > We?ve got two distinct strains of libertarianism, and the > > hippie-mystic strain is not engaging in politics, and the Ayn > > Rand strain is basically dismantling government in a way that > > is giving complete open field running to multinational > > corporatism." > > > > OK, this is sloppy far beyond any need to deal with it further. I'd say it's pretty accurate. There are of course also the L Neil Smith, 10x10, big L libertarians who are allergic to anything but absolutely perfect Libertarian thought, and refuse to support anything which is a step on the way. There are a few other minor strains, but the hippie/mystic Georgists and the Randroid dismantlers make up the bulk of things in the *active* legions. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 13:32:41 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <41298D2E.5000407@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <20040823133241.65670.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Max M wrote: > Spike wrote: > > >>...is insisting on throwing its weight behind > >>blatantly irrational... > > > > As blatantly irrational as murdering 3000 innocent > > internationals who did nothing more evil than to > > work in a really tall office building? > > > Spike, if you really are interrested in this subject, you should read > some Noam Chumsky, or at least see some of his videos. > > He has some pretty strong examples on the above. Oh Ghu, Chumpsky? The admitted apologist for anyone, so long as they hate America? I've seen far too much from the nutty georgist left-libs trying to slap together immensely improbable conspiracies from a sheaf of the thinnest of circumstantial events. They could give the neo-nazis lessons on the subject. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 13:46:07 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:46:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The "wasted" Libertarian vote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040823134607.67421.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- stencil wrote: > The rule by which your State instructs its electors > > http://www.fairvote.org/e_college/problems.htm > > has a lot to do with personal voting strategies. snip > If you really can't predict the outcome, and you perceive any > difference at > all between Bulganin and Kruschchev, you take the lesser, lest your > swing vote give the State to the wrong weasel. Well there is the counterintuitive method, given you know of the existence of the FSP, and you want it to reach 20k members to trigger the migration officially, you want to vote in a way that is going to ensure that those other 14,000 people get pissed off enough where they are that the finally decide to bite the bullet and move to NH. You want someone who will either pass Patriot Acts II, III, IV, and V, or pass the National Gun Confiscation Act, the National Mandatory Health Care And Total Confiscation of Wealth Act, and the American Rural To Urban Migration To "Save" The Environment Act. How likely either future is, and how bad you think a particular candidate can make things for libertarians you want to move to NH in reaction, can have an influence on your voting in this election. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 13:50:43 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 06:50:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The "wasted" Libertarian vote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040823135043.76727.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- stencil wrote: > The rule by which your State instructs its electors > > http://www.fairvote.org/e_college/problems.htm > > has a lot to do with personal voting strategies. snip > If you really can't predict the outcome, and you perceive any > difference at > all between Bulganin and Kruschchev, you take the lesser, lest your > swing vote give the State to the wrong weasel. Well there is the counterintuitive method, given you know of the existence of the FSP, and you want it to reach 20k members to trigger the migration officially, you want to vote in a way that is going to ensure that those other 14,000 people get pissed off enough where they are that the finally decide to bite the bullet and move to NH. You want someone who will either pass Patriot Acts II, III, IV, and V, or pass the National Gun Confiscation Act, the National Mandatory Health Care And Total Confiscation of Wealth Act, and the American Rural To Urban Migration To "Save" The Environment Act. How likely either future is, and how bad you think a particular candidate can make things for libertarians you want to move to NH in reaction, can have an influence on your voting in this election. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 13:22:34 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:22:34 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs References: <1092945380.3442@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: Look, generally speaking there are more things inherently unsafe about SUVs than sedans. I'm aware that there are unsafe things about everything in our universe, but one of my personal goals is to reduce these risks. So when it comes time to purchase a vehicle a rational decision factor is "What is the safety record of this vehicle and class?" and "What are the safety features of this vehicle and class?". BAL ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Andrew Rogers" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 3:56 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs > > There are things inherently unsafe about many SUVs. They have a higher > > tendency to roll over (not just due to driver ignorance). They also > make the > > road less safe for non-SUV owners by obstructing their view. > > > There are many things inherently unsafe about EVERY type of vehicle -- > engineering is about trade-offs. To reverse your assertion above, small > sedans are inherently less safe because they give poor visibility. All > you are saying is that $VEHICLE is the safest of all vehicles iff the > entire universe is engineered to be optimal for the design of $VEHICLE. > Welcome to the real world. > > > > So it is a little more than just "use wisely". If you take an excellent > > driver and have them drive a sedan and an SUV, they will have more > > roll-overs and be more unsafe in the SUV even though their driving > skill is > > excellent. > > > You take your Prius on a gravel highway up in the mountains and I'll > take the unused Bronco sitting in my driveway. The Prius is inherently > less safe even if you never see another vehicle. Which would you rather > be in if you hit a moose or cattle or got stuck in a rainstorm on that road? > > There is a hell of a lot more to safety than a moderately higher > probability of rollovers, which are a tiny portion of the bigger > calculus. For a skilled driver who understands the parameters of an > SUV, a rollover is not a major concern. Of the rollovers I've seen > around here (more than half of which were sedans), the SUVs generally > appeared to be the aforementioned soccer moms that like to play Pole > Position while yapping on the phone and putting on make-up. Their > number was coming up anyway (in terms of having an accident), the choice > of an SUV just helped parameterize the mode. > > > j. andrew rogers > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From amara at amara.com Mon Aug 23 14:56:21 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:56:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] recap of Perseids: July 23 - August 22; Peak: August 12 Message-ID: Did any of you go out and observe the Perseid meteor shower? I was at Lake Shasta, California, and was delighted to introduce 'shooting stars' to a few members of my family who had never seen them before. With the exception of a couple of nights of haze and smoke from two large fires in the area, the sky there was so clear and dark, that the Milky Way was visible 15 minutes after sunset. My family spent evenings "sky watching" on our vacation houseboat before bedtime, with a few members staying on top and sleeping on the deck, so then, lulled to sleep by the brilliant jewels. I relearned my way through the summer constellations, too, a path which had become a little rusty in the last two decades. The US was not in the best viewing position for the narrow Perseid maximum peak, though, but Europe was: "About one per minute.." Perseid Meteor Shower Dazzles Skywatchers http://www.space.com/spacewatch/perseids_dazzled_040812.html A nice summary: http://www.hohmanntransfer.com/mn/0408/20.htm Detailed Data and Prediction here: http://www.amsmeteors.org/imo-mirror/news/news.html Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "There's only one thing more beautiful than a beautiful dream, and that's a beautiful reality." --Ashleigh Brilliant From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Mon Aug 23 23:49:25 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:49:25 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Semco In-Reply-To: <20040822164118.52945.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040822164118.52945.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <412A8285.3010202@optusnet.com.au> Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- David wrote: > >>However, I was originally referring to temporary >>losses of performance >>being supported by team-mates, whereas in most other >>environments >>support consists of warnings to "look busy 'cause >>the boss is coming". > > > Ah. Although, would not permanent deficits - like > the honest lack of knowledge as to how to do a task - > also be supported? "You don't know how to do this, > yet you must or we'll all suffer. So let's all figure > out how your task can be done." Certainly, if a deficit can be remedied by training or by adjusting the way the work is done it will be. From my own relatively limited experience in these environments I think that the people involved differentiate between "can't do the job due to inherent inability (mental or physical)" - in which case training/support/re-adjustment are applied to work around the problem - and "won't do the job properly because he/she is a lazy arsehole" - in which case the co-workers will actually drive them out of the company. > > >>Hmm. Another thought about fixing others - it may be >>that many things >>that need "fixing" are not necessarily broken, but >>may be just >>incompatibilities. > > > Many, certainly, but I wonder if this is or is not > the majority - as opposed to cases where things truly > are "broken", in this case defined as a condition > where the same or a similar problem would be faced no > matter who the "broken" person worked with (aside from > extreme cases, like those who would simply do that > person's job in order to negate the "malfunction"). > > The anecdotal evidence of my own career suggests that > most of the time, when difficulties erupt, it is > because people truly are "broken" in that manner, > although usually this can be taken care of through training. I too have only anecdotal evidence :-) I have at times worked where there have been people who could only have been described as actively malicious. For some reason they seem to be able to play the system so as to discredit others, while sucking up to the bosses to the extent that management considers them a valuable asset. These arseholes are the ones who don't survive in the team environment. And by getting rid of them I would say that you would get not only an increase in productivity, which is a marginal gain, but also a decrease in "spoilt work" which is actually much more beneficial to the company. From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Aug 23 15:12:50 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 08:12:50 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <20040823133241.65670.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f501c48923$a83a7300$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > --- Max M wrote: > > > Spike wrote: > > > > >>...is insisting on throwing its weight behind > > >>blatantly irrational... > > > > > > As blatantly irrational as murdering 3000 innocent > > > internationals who did nothing more evil than to > > > work in a really tall office building? > > > > > > Spike, if you really are interrested in this subject, you > > should read some Noam Chumsky, or at least see some of his videos... I sampled his work. There are those whose attitude seems to be "My country, right or wrong." Chumsky comes across with the attitude "My country, wrong." My own take is more like "Noam Chomsky, wrong." spike From megaquark at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 15:24:46 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 10:24:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... References: <20040815040324.82855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com><5.1.0.14.2.20040815222925.054dbb28@unreasonable.com><7FA9BF90-EF8A-11D8-BE3F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com><007501c4839a$31b675a0$852c2dcb@homepc><10F50CBF-EFB0-11D8-B246-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <81FC820A-F46E-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: I was just reading an article in my newspaper that said that roughly 47% of US citizens can;t correctly point out England on a world map. It was in an article titled "Are people too ignorant to vote?" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samantha Atkins" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 2:07 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... > I found it rather depressing. I forget how many people just haven't a > clue. > > -s > > On Aug 16, 2004, at 11:14 AM, Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > > > > > > Since yesterday there has been back-and-forth on Slashdot.org about > > the Singularity. > > > > Some nice points are made, but from a Sociological standpoint it an > > interesting slice of humanity to observe the reaction of. > > Just thought ppl might want to catch it. Slow news day, as they say. > > > > http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/08/15/ > > 1642243&tid=214&tid=192&tid=14&tid=6 > > > > ]3 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From maxm at mail.tele.dk Mon Aug 23 15:41:14 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 17:41:14 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <00f501c48923$a83a7300$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <00f501c48923$a83a7300$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <412A101A.5080907@mail.tele.dk> Spike wrote: >>--- Max M wrote: >>>Spike, if you really are interrested in this subject, you >>>should read some Noam Chumsky, or at least see some of his videos... > > I sampled his work. There are those whose attitude seems > to be "My country, right or wrong." Chumsky comes across > with the attitude "My country, wrong." My own take is > more like "Noam Chomsky, wrong." There are several important omissions in Chomskys Critique. But the official version of history is just as wrong, with at least, just as bad omissions. So I think that it's important to study both POWs to get a more balanced view. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 16:16:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040823161602.75213.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Alexander Lee wrote: > Look, generally speaking there are more things inherently unsafe > about SUVs > than sedans. I'm aware that there are unsafe things about everything > in our > universe, but one of my personal goals is to reduce these risks. So > when it > comes time to purchase a vehicle a rational decision factor is "What > is the > safety record of this vehicle and class?" and "What are the safety > features > of this vehicle and class?". It may be more conducive to look at the demographics of accident victims in SUVs. Just as hybrid vehicles driven by leadfooted drivers don't get nearly the MPG that others do, SUVs driven by inexperienced drivers, such as teens, may suffer the same phenomenon of self perpetuated increased risk. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Aug 23 17:06:00 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:06:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] recap of Perseids: July 23 - August 22; Peak: August 12 Message-ID: <19860-220048123176023@M2W041.mail2web.com> From: Amara Graps >Did any of you go out and observe the Perseid meteor shower? Got up at 2:30 a.m. and went outside on the deck to enjoy the showers. Unfortunatley I was facing East instead of West, but the sky was overcast anyway and only saw 2 little sparks of light when I turned to face the right direction. (I miss going with friends to star gaze. :-( Haha - just thinking of dragging friends out of bed or driving to a far location half asleep. It's really about location, location, location.) Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 17:24:52 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 13:24:52 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs Message-ID: I try to stick to objective data. Objective data shows more injuries and deaths in SUVs. Your persona, subjective anecdotes that you feel SUVs are driven by poor drivers does little to convince me. Show me some real data or study that proves your belief that the true cause of accidents is dumb-ass drivers and I'll change my mind. Until that point, I'll stick with the only objective numbers I can find. It's funny how rational extropians start abandoning all scientific reasoning when it comes to their own experience and beliefs. Thanks, BAL >From: Mike Lorrey >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Real Extropians don't drive SUVs >Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:16:02 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Brian Alexander Lee wrote: > > > Look, generally speaking there are more things inherently unsafe > > about SUVs > > than sedans. I'm aware that there are unsafe things about everything > > in our > > universe, but one of my personal goals is to reduce these risks. So > > when it > > comes time to purchase a vehicle a rational decision factor is "What > > is the > > safety record of this vehicle and class?" and "What are the safety > > features > > of this vehicle and class?". > >It may be more conducive to look at the demographics of accident >victims in SUVs. Just as hybrid vehicles driven by leadfooted drivers >don't get nearly the MPG that others do, SUVs driven by inexperienced >drivers, such as teens, may suffer the same phenomenon of self >perpetuated increased risk. > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Chairman, Free Town Land Development >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! >http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emerson at singinst.org Mon Aug 23 18:42:44 2004 From: emerson at singinst.org (Tyler Emerson) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 11:42:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity Institute's The SIAI Voice - August 2004 Message-ID: <200408231842.i7NIgl030991@tick.javien.com> The Singularity Institute's new eBulletin is now online: http://www.singinst.org/siai-voice/2004.2/ Contents: * 2004 $10,000 Challenge Grant * 3 Laws Unsafe * Rational Philanthropy for 35 Cents a Day * Singularity Institute Overview * Featured Content: Why Work Toward the Singularity? * Executive Director Update * In Kind Contributions * New At Our Website * Monthly Volunteer Meeting * Volunteer Opportunities * Advocacy Director Michael Anissimov's New Writings * Singularity Survey * Singularity Statement from Simon Smith * Singularity Quote from Nick Bostrom * Event - 1st Conference on Advanced Nanotechnology * Event - Accelerating Change 2004 * Around the Web To receive the bulletin by email: http://www.singinst.org/news/subscribe.html -- Tyler Emerson Executive Director Singularity Institute http://www.singinst.org/ Suite 106 PMB #12 4290 Bells Ferry Road Kennesaw, GA 30144 emerson at singinst.org aim: tylerremerson 417.840.5968 From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 21:10:36 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <200408231232.i7NCWPS9004562@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <20040823211036.22867.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> Because I am a fan of the Battle-tech/Mechwarrior line of video games, the videos of the fighting robots made me realize that the Japanese are not too far off from the technology neccesary to make battle-mechs. For those of you who are uninitiated, the concept of a battle-mech is similar to exoskeleton type powered armor but scaled way up. These 30 ton plus humanoid robots are operated by on-board specially trained elite pilots. These mechs are highly reinforced weapons platforms often carrying autocannons, missiles, and other ordinance. These mechs are supposed to represent a technological improvement over existing military hardware presumably because they are more maneuverable, versatile, and have a more imposing presence on the battlefield than tanks etc. I was just curious what you all thought about this and whether you think the Japanese or someone else will take this technology in just such a direction? FYI the fictional mechs are powered by fusion powerplants so for real world applications we probably do not have a suitable means to power them. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Aug 23 21:35:05 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 14:35:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823211036.22867.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040823213505.57178.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > FYI the fictional mechs are powered by > fusion powerplants so for real world applications we > probably do not have a suitable means to power them. I've been following the development of this tech, and power sources seems to be the primary thing keeping them from viability. That's the problem that all developers of exoskeletons (basically suits of armor with motors, to amplify the wearer's strength) are running into; the only viable solution I've seen plugged into building power. Some say that giant (2-4x human height) mechs are impractical for military use, mainly since they're a big artillery target. However, they would seem to be of use wherever cover is available, like in forests or cities (or mountains, or even underwater near the coast: imagine a submarine against a mech that could swim at least as fast, could shoot down incoming torpedoes, and could close in to grapple - maybe even capture, simply by lifting a ship or sub out of the water). As it happens, I recently wrote a short parody of this genre, if anyone's interested: http://archives.eyrie.org/anime/Miscellaneous/Original/orig.from-the-journal-of-marcus-reaver.gz From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 22:35:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 15:35:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823211036.22867.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040823223527.1553.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > direction? FYI the fictional mechs are powered by > fusion powerplants so for real world applications we > probably do not have a suitable means to power them. No reason they can't run on a turbine engine or fuel cell powerplant. AFAICR, the MI-A1 Abrams has a range of 100 miles on one tank of fuel with its turbine engine. Fuel cells were generating 100kw/ft^3 a decade ago. Have no idea what the energy density is today. 100kw is 75 hp. Fusion is fanciful, but unnecessary. A battle mech should be able to function with 1000 hp powering hydraulics (better for EMP protection), thus requiring a 10-13 ft^3 fuel cell powerplant, electric powered hydraulic pumps with at least 20 gps capacity. The problem with these battle mechs is the actuation system. These devices are very vulnerable to damage without serious armorplating which generally adds so much weight that mobility is hindered. Tanks are a much saner option. A tank with a blown track is still upright and capable of firing at the enemy. A mech with a blown leg is sitting on its head flailing. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Mon Aug 23 13:33:00 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 09:33:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The "wasted" Libertarian vote References: <200408221800.i7MI0D001733@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: I know that I cast my vote for a 3rd party each election to show support for 3rd party politics in what is effectively a single-state system (since Dems and Repubs are effectively the same when it comes to important policy- trade, environment, defense, etc). BAL ----- Original Message ----- From: "stencil" To: Sent: Sunday, August 22, 2004 4:12 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] The "wasted" Libertarian vote > The rule by which your State instructs its electors > > http://www.fairvote.org/e_college/problems.htm > > has a lot to do with personal voting strategies. > > If you know your State's electors all will go to Kerry (as in Massachusetts) > you have greater incentive to vote Libertarian than if you're voting in a > releatively close contest. You cannot affect the *outcome* of the race, but > there is a greater likelihood that both parties will respond to the off-axis > vector of your minority, in planning for the midterm elections. > > If you really can't predict the outcome, and you perceive any difference at > all between Bulganin and Kruschchev, you take the lesser, lest your swing > vote give the State to the wrong weasel. > > Unless, of course, you really are committed to the Party of Principle. > > stencil sends > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Aug 23 23:23:42 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 18:23:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] exercise pill Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040823182216.01d88148@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=6048637§ion=news "It is a pill that, in part, mimics exercise. It mimics the metabolic activity associated with exercise," Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator Ronald Evans of The Salk Institute for Biological Studies, who led the study, said in a telephone interview. Evans and a team of researchers were looking at a gene called PPAR-delta -- a master regulator of different genes. Revving up PPAR-delta had been shown to help raise metabolism and fat-burning, Evans said. "Part of our goal is the development of treatments for metabolic disease, diabetes and obesity," he said. Writing in the journal Public Library of Science Biology, Evans and colleagues said they tweaked the PPAR-delta gene to stay in a permanently "on" position and then genetically engineered mice with it. They expected to see changes in metabolism but were surprised at how extensive they were. The genetically engineered mice could run for an hour longer than normal mice, "which translates to nearly a kilometer (half a mile) further," the researchers wrote. And when fed a high-fat diet, the normal mice became fat while the genetically altered mice gained no weight. Tests showed they were burning off the fat even when they did not exercise, Evans said. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 24 02:36:43 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 19:36:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011701c48983$31777550$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Kevin Freels > I was just reading an article in my newspaper that said that > roughly 47% of US citizens can;t correctly point out England on a world map. > It was in an article titled "Are people too ignorant to vote?" Yes, most humans are far too ignorant to vote, and yes it is intentional, for the mainstream news media are misleading the proletariat, not just in the US but everywhere news media exist. This thing about finding England on a map is not a good argument however. Regardless of where you go on this planet, you still hafta go to the same airport. Any nation can trade with or make war on any other country anywhere on the globe. It makes no where it is. Secondly, they don't let US citizens vote in England's elections anyway. Thats how the war started in the first place (the one that happened 230 yrs ago). Point well taken however. I am astounded daily at how profoundly dumb our species is or is becoming. spike From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Aug 24 04:49:33 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:49:33 -0700 Subject: Dymaxion Car (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) In-Reply-To: <026d01c488e3$66413640$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc> <4128AC99.9090503@pobox.com> <024701c488d4$373b1640$362c2dcb@homepc> <05CED995-F4CB-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040823214623.031c3970@mail.earthlink.net> How about The Dymaxion Car instead? "(1933)--Inventor R. Buckminster Fuller's car was long and awkward-looking, but, man, could it go. Because of its streamlined shape and light aluminum-clad body, the Dymaxion car could travel 120 mph powered by a relatively puny 90-horsepower, air-cooled Ford V8 engine. The car of the future had three wheels able to turn at 90-degree angles, allowing it to pop in and out of tight parking spaces." But with better balance (it was like the Suzuki early version of the SUV/Jeep style that was in a major class action suit because it frequently rolled over) so that it would not tumble over so easily. Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 24 03:31:49 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 20:31:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823211036.22867.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012c01c4898a$e45c1a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > The Avantguardian > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! > > ...the videos of the fighting robots made me realize that the > Japanese are not too far off from the technology > neccesary to make battle-mechs... > ===== > The Avantguardian I think you hit right on it, Avant. Every nation must invent its own defense if it intends to stay an independent nation. In the aftermath of the Great War, the surrender treaty forbade Germany from developing long range guns. So they developed rocketry instead. Guns or rockets, which is most important now? Treaty forbade Japan from developing offensive weapons, so perhaps their military brains are thinking of robots as future weaponry. One way or another, North Korea and China are coming. It would be national suicide to sit by and do nothing. Bots will make great soldiers! If captured they will not talk, if destroyed no mothers will weep, if victorious they will not pretend to cast away their ribbons nor shame their countrymachines. A meme could be spread among the religious fanatics that if they perish fighting a robot, they would get 72 mechanical virgins. You know they would flee in terror at such a prospect. War is too dangerous for humans. spike From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Aug 24 04:39:07 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 21:39:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ethics - Brought to You by the Bush Brothers Message-ID: <13e901c48994$4b043ab0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Ooooh, this distresses me: "...Ms. Hood, handpicked by Governor Bush to succeed the notorious Katherine Harris as secretary of state, was forced to admit that the felons list was a mess. She said the problems were unintentional. What clearly was intentional was the desire of Ms. Hood and Governor Bush to keep the list secret. It was disclosed only as a result of lawsuits filed under Florida's admirable sunshine law." http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/opinion/23herbert.html Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 24 06:08:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:08:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ethics - Brought to You by the Bush Brothers In-Reply-To: <13e901c48994$4b043ab0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <015401c489a0$ce43d0a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Olga Bourlin > Subject: [extropy-chat] Ethics - Brought to You by the Bush Brothers > > Ooooh, this distresses me: > > "...Ms. Hood, handpicked by Governor Bush to succeed the > notorious Katherine Harris as secretary of state, was forced to admit that the > felons list was a mess. She said the problems were unintentional... Partially believable. Some states allow felons to vote after they have served their sentences. What if the felons serve their time, then move to Florida? What if the felon is in the federal witness protection program? What if the felons are convicted and serve in Florida, then move to another state? The way the law is written is contradictory and confusing. > What clearly was intentional > was the desire of Ms. Hood and Governor Bush to keep the list secret... Are post-release felons entitled to privacy? Being an openness advocate, I would suggest the contrary, however an argument could be made either way. I can certainly see why the felons would want to cover their tracks. > It was disclosed only as a result of lawsuits filed under Florida's admirable > sunshine law." > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/opinion/23herbert.html Olga This is shaping up to a replay of 2000. I wouldn't be surprised if pretty much all the same states went to the same parties, and once again Florida, with the deciding wad of electoral college delegates, is once again was too close to call. Weeks of bitter acrimony could follow, with disputed undervotes and overvotes, ambiguous write-ins, etc. I saw a poll showing Florida voters at 48% W, 46% whats-his-name, 3% Ralph, and 3% all others combined (including still undecided), with a +/-2% uncertainty factor. Here we go again. {8-| I notice the IFX ideas futures exchange has been selling republicans for 51 cents and democrats for 50 cents for the past 4 months with scarcely any change. As a dynamic optimist, I see some good that comes of all this: it makes people realize that it really does matter if one bothers to vote. {8-] spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 06:26:48 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... Message-ID: <20040824062648.78234.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> as john taylor gatto says, the ignorance is intentionally wrought. serfs need no knowledge beyond their shire. why have your own opinion when the media- industrial complex can produce one for you? --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > > Kevin Freels > > > I was just reading an article in my newspaper that said that > > roughly 47% of US citizens can;t correctly point out England on a > world map. > > It was in an article titled "Are people too ignorant to vote?" > > Yes, most humans are far too ignorant to vote, and yes > it is intentional, for the mainstream news media are > misleading the proletariat, not just in the US but > everywhere news media exist. This thing about finding > England on a map is not a good argument however. Regardless > of where you go on this planet, you still hafta go to the > same airport. Any nation can trade with or make war on > any other country anywhere on the globe. It makes no > where it is. Secondly, they don't let US citizens vote > in England's elections anyway. Thats how the war started > in the first place (the one that happened 230 yrs ago). > > Point well taken however. I am astounded daily at how > profoundly dumb our species is or is becoming. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From samantha at objectent.com Tue Aug 24 06:53:37 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:53:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> I have mentioned a few already. Beyond that I don't think an honest look can fail to supply you with as many examples as you have the stomach for. -s On Aug 22, 2004, at 4:40 PM, Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > On Sun, 2004-08-22 at 16:11, Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> Sure since the west is insisting on throwing its weight behind >> blatantly irrational and oppressive acts. > > I know I'm going to regret asking, but *what* blatantly irrational and > oppressive acts? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Tue Aug 24 06:57:22 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2004 23:57:22 -0700 Subject: Rights again (was Re: [extropy-chat] SUV versus sedan etc) In-Reply-To: <026d01c488e3$66413640$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <1092949548.26796@whirlwind.he.net> <027a01c48643$ea8a00a0$362c2dcb@homepc> <01ae01c48823$267521e0$362c2dcb@homepc> <4128AC99.9090503@pobox.com> <024701c488d4$373b1640$362c2dcb@homepc> <05CED995-F4CB-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <026d01c488e3$66413640$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: Since I assume later posts in a thread are summations or conclusions I don't see why I have to re-chew the entire thread that was hopefully sufficiently masticated by that point in order to meaningfully comment. On Aug 23, 2004, at 12:32 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Samantha: > >> I have heard this before. So you believe that if say, sharia law >> became universal on earth, that humans would have no rights whatsoever >> to oppose it? Or that they can oppose it but not on the grounds that >> it is a violation of their rights? You believe in short that rights >> are the gift of the state. Doesn't the nature of human beings imply >> some common requirements for their well being? Couldn't you derive >> rights from that common nature? > > You'd have to read *all* of the thread Samantha or you will just get > your wires crossed. > > Brett Paatsch > > PS: I don't beLIEve anything. I know I have covered that before. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Tue Aug 24 07:08:45 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:08:45 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911 -objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <20040823132550.64218.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823132550.64218.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <703ED512-F59C-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 23, 2004, at 6:25 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> >> On Aug 16, 2004, at 1:18 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: >>> >>> " ..by virtue of our abdication, a very authoritarian, assertive >>> form of government has taken over. And oddly enough, it is >>> doing so in the guise of libertarianism to a certain extent. Most >>> of the people in the think tanks behind the Bush administration?s >>> current policies are libertarians, or certainly free marketeers. >> >> I am sorry but the current government-corporate love-in has nothing >> to >> do with free markets. With the exception of Cato, none of the major >> think tanks remotely qualify as or claim to be libertarian AFAIK. >> This is a gross insult to libertarians by those who haven't the >> foggiest idea what libertarianism or free markets are about. > > Well then, you don't know. Grover Norquist's Americans for Tax Reform > is very influential in that they've proposed all of the tax cuts that > Bush has instigated, Norquist is a common face in the White House, and > his Wednesday luncheons at his HQ are a must-attend event for > conservo-libertarian movers and shakers. Americans for tax reform is a think tank? Norquist is a Republican right-winger out to unfund all those liberal groups he hates. > That the are for tax cuts and keeping the tax bill down hardly makes said group or person libertarian or even shows that most of the proposals are remotely consistent with libertarian ideals. > In the 1970's Norquist co-authored a book on taxes with Tim Condon, who > is currently director of participant services at the Free State > Project. > Cool, so? > Norquist has been pioneering, according to knowledgable sources, in > melding industry money with conservative/libertarian causes and > politicians. He annoys many social conservatives like Tucker Carlson, > who refers to him as "a little creep". > So? >>> We?ve got two distinct strains of libertarianism, and the >>> hippie-mystic strain is not engaging in politics, and the Ayn >>> Rand strain is basically dismantling government in a way that >>> is giving complete open field running to multinational >>> corporatism." >>> >> >> OK, this is sloppy far beyond any need to deal with it further. > > I'd say it's pretty accurate. There are of course also the L Neil > Smith, 10x10, big L libertarians who are allergic to anything but > absolutely perfect Libertarian thought, and refuse to support anything > which is a step on the way. There are a few other minor strains, but > the hippie/mystic Georgists and the Randroid dismantlers make up the > bulk of things in the *active* legions. > I don't take many of your opinions as accurate on the subject of Libertarianism. I guess it is may be mutual. Where exactly is the evidence that anyone is successfully "dismantling government"? It looks like a very fat fascist state in the making to me. -samantha From samantha at objectent.com Tue Aug 24 07:18:02 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 00:18:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Singularity shoot-out on Slashdot... In-Reply-To: <011701c48983$31777550$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <011701c48983$31777550$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Aug 23, 2004, at 7:36 PM, Spike wrote: >> Kevin Freels > >> I was just reading an article in my newspaper that said that >> roughly 47% of US citizens can;t correctly point out England on a > world map. >> It was in an article titled "Are people too ignorant to vote?" > > Yes, most humans are far too ignorant to vote, and yes > it is intentional, for the mainstream news media are > misleading the proletariat, not just in the US but > everywhere news media exist. Before the media could tell 'em what to think the public school system had to turn young minds to mush incapable of critical thought. I am at least thankful the school system's methods are not 100% successful. - samantha From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Tue Aug 24 09:59:27 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:59:27 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040823223527.1553.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040823223527.1553.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: >No reason they can't run on a turbine engine or fuel cell powerplant. >AFAICR, the MI-A1 Abrams has a range of 100 miles on one tank of fuel >with its turbine engine. Fuel cells were generating 100kw/ft^3 a decade >ago. Have no idea what the energy density is today. 100kw is 75 hp. The other way around. 100kw is 134hp, so the goal of 1000 hp is reachable with only 7.5 ft^3. Now where are the protonic missiles and the antimatter rays? Any giant mech without those isn't worth it. Alfio From scerir at libero.it Tue Aug 24 10:09:57 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 12:09:57 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] summer time References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040823182216.01d88148@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002801c489c2$82c70bc0$86c61b97@administxl09yj> "summer time, and the living is easy" ftl communicator idea (at Oak Ridge) http://accelconf.web.cern.ch/AccelConf/p01/PAPERS/TPPH041.PDF alien space-ship http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/08/10/tunguska.shtml super-plastics http://members.fcc.net/workgroup5/music/starlite-bk2.jpg From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 13:25:47 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 06:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040824132547.52336.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >No reason they can't run on a turbine engine or fuel cell > powerplant. > >AFAICR, the MI-A1 Abrams has a range of 100 miles on one tank of > fuel > >with its turbine engine. Fuel cells were generating 100kw/ft^3 a > decade > >ago. Have no idea what the energy density is today. 100kw is 75 hp. > > The other way around. 100kw is 134hp, so the goal of 1000 hp is > reachable with only 7.5 ft^3. > > Now where are the protonic missiles and the antimatter rays? Any > giant mech without those isn't worth it. A herf gun? You'd like that? We can do that. How about a metal plasma pulse rifle? We can do that too. The issue is that you're dumping a LOT of power into these things with little in return on damage. Chemical explosives still pack a higher energy density, and flying lead and steel and spent uranium carry energy a longer distance with less fuss and muss in a sea level atmosphere. Ever heard of the KISS principle? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Tue Aug 24 14:07:08 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 16:07:08 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Video of Fighting Humanoid Robots! In-Reply-To: <20040824132547.52336.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040824132547.52336.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 24 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > >> On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> >No reason they can't run on a turbine engine or fuel cell >> powerplant. >> >AFAICR, the MI-A1 Abrams has a range of 100 miles on one tank of >> fuel >> >with its turbine engine. Fuel cells were generating 100kw/ft^3 a >> decade >> >ago. Have no idea what the energy density is today. 100kw is 75 hp. >> >> The other way around. 100kw is 134hp, so the goal of 1000 hp is >> reachable with only 7.5 ft^3. >> >> Now where are the protonic missiles and the antimatter rays? Any >> giant mech without those isn't worth it. > >A herf gun? You'd like that? We can do that. How about a metal plasma >pulse rifle? We can do that too. The issue is that you're dumping a LOT >of power into these things with little in return on damage. Chemical >explosives still pack a higher energy density, and flying lead and >steel and spent uranium carry energy a longer distance with less fuss >and muss in a sea level atmosphere. > >Ever heard of the KISS principle? It was only a joke, because every cartoon from japan about giant mechs have some impressive-sounding weapons that are of course pure fantasy. The "protonic missile" is, somehow, always mentioned in every cartoon, maybe because it sounds as so big and important. Alfio From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 14:23:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:23:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Ethics - Brought to You by the Bush Brothers In-Reply-To: <015401c489a0$ce43d0a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040824142302.11044.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > Olga Bourlin > > Subject: [extropy-chat] Ethics - Brought to You by the Bush > Brothers > > > > Ooooh, this distresses me: > > > > "...Ms. Hood, handpicked by Governor Bush to succeed the > > notorious Katherine Harris as secretary of state, was forced to > admit > that the > > felons list was a mess. She said the problems were unintentional... > > Partially believable. Some states allow felons to vote > after they have served their sentences. What if the > felons serve their time, then move to Florida? What if > the felon is in the federal witness protection program? > What if the felons are convicted and serve in Florida, > then move to another state? The way the law > is written is contradictory and confusing. Well, yes, this was one of the bones of contention in 2000. Harris had all felons purged. Now, another states policy toward felons really only applies if the felon is voting in that state. A felon who has gone through the process of petitioning the court for relief of civil disability is a different story from one who simply has finished their probation. > > > What clearly was intentional > > was the desire of Ms. Hood and Governor Bush to keep the list > secret... > > Are post-release felons entitled to privacy? Being an > openness advocate, I would suggest the contrary, however > an argument could be made either way. I can certainly see why > the felons would want to cover their tracks. Yeah, felonies are public records, no buts about it. Privacy Act doesn't cover it because criminal acts are acts against The People, who therefore have an interest in knowing the records regarding those acts. > > > It was disclosed only as a result of lawsuits filed under Florida's > admirable > > sunshine law." > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/23/opinion/23herbert.html > > Olga > > This is shaping up to a replay of 2000. I wouldn't be surprised > if pretty much all the same states went to the same parties, > and once again Florida, with the deciding wad of electoral college > delegates, is once again was too close to call. Weeks of > bitter acrimony could follow, with disputed undervotes and > overvotes, ambiguous write-ins, etc. I saw a poll showing > Florida voters at 48% W, 46% whats-his-name, 3% Ralph, and 3% > all others combined (including still undecided), with a +/-2% > uncertainty factor. Here we go again. {8-| I notice the IFX > ideas futures exchange has been selling republicans for 51 cents > and democrats for 50 cents for the past 4 months with scarcely > any change. Yeah, and Banarik has polled as high as 5% in New Mexico and is doing well in a number of other states. Nationally he could pull 3% nationally if the vote were today, the best LP showing ever. LP momentum is rising. I think a few states will flip. California may flip thanks to the Guvernator, Pennsylvania may flip, and both went to Gore before. California alone could throw the election. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Aug 24 14:47:15 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 07:47:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911-objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <703ED512-F59C-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <015c01c489e9$3f7c9110$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Samantha Atkins: > > That the are for tax cuts and keeping the tax bill down hardly makes > said group or person libertarian or even shows that most of the > proposals are remotely consistent with libertarian ideals. -samantha Oh, but that is always a great start. A government that hasn't much money will of necessity focus on the essentials: common defense and road building. Beyond that, I don't see it as all that useful. spike From sjvans at ameritech.net Tue Aug 24 15:32:29 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 10:32:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield> <5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 01:53, Samantha Atkins wrote: > I have mentioned a few already. Beyond that I don't think an honest > look can fail to supply you with as many examples as you have the > stomach for. That's a cop out. You made the claim, now refuse to back it up. Just a few words would do. I can't find *any* examples of "irrational and oppressive" acts that the "west is throwing its weight behind". Does that mean I am being dishonest, as you imply? I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there were some, which is why I wanted examples. I can find "oppressive" actions, but that is the nature of both government and war. Shooting someone is a pretty oppressive act. I don't think we are doing away with either government or war in the near future. But I really can't find anything at all, rational, irrational, oppressive, liberating, indifferent, *anything* that the "west throws its weight behind". Furthermore, I can't find anything (yet) that I would consider "irrational" (even the almost inexplicable actions of Saddam Hussein have their own reasoning, if you dig deep enough). Just because you don't agree with a reason does not automatically make it irrational. I find this all very distressing, since I think a strong opposition is essential to civil society. Yet much of what I see from the opposition these days amount to personal attacks ("irrational", "honest", "Bush is dumb") and a refusal to debate the facts and issues. It is ultimately self-defeating. It is not like there aren't a great many sound arguments against the course of action being taken. From amara at amara.com Tue Aug 24 17:11:41 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:11:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] recap of Perseids: July 23 - August 22; Peak: August 12 Message-ID: Natasha: >Got up at 2:30 a.m. and went outside on the deck to enjoy the showers. >Unfortunatley I was facing East instead of West, but the sky was overcast >anyway and only saw 2 little sparks of light when I turned to face the >right direction. The radiants of the Perseids generally point to the North-East: http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=040806_perseid_radiant_2004_02.jpg&cap=Perseid+meteors+emanate+from+the+constellation+Perseus%2C+which+rises+above+the+horizon+in+late+evening+this+time+of+year+%28shown+on+this+map%29+and+is+high+overhead+during+the+predawn+hours.+The+meteors+can+began+anywhere+in+the+sky%2C+but+a+line+along+their+path+will+trace+back+to+Perseus. but my family and I saw 'shooting stars' in other places in the sky, pointing to different directions too. We saw about one every 5-10 minutes on the evenings before and after the maximum (the maximum was smoked out with the nearby fire, and California was off the track of the narrow maximum peak anyway). My family learned how to distinguish between planes and satellites, and I saw my first Iridium flash from the dark skies at Lake Shasta as well. My last (serious) starwatching was when I took my Orange Coast College borrowed Cave 8 inch, f8 Newtonian reflector to the desert at Joshua Tree National Park frequently in ... ~1979-1980 ! ---> http://www.amara.com/VWTelescope_b.jpg (A *very* old washed out photo. Imagine the looks from the other car drivers as I drove my 'scope on the SoCal freeways.) My trip two weeks ago to Lake Shasta was great fun to get reacquainted with the summer sky constellations. (for Northern Hemisphere viewers) If there are high mountains around, the first trick is to find exactly where is West (i.e. where the sun actually went down), then with the help of Polaris, the rest of the constellations fall into place. My dad even recognized quite a few constellations from his navigation classes decades ago. >(I miss going with friends to star gaze. :-( Haha - just thinking of >dragging friends out of bed or driving to a far location half asleep. It's >really about location, location, location.) If the location is not ideal for star watching (Rome is terrible), at least most of the planets and Moon are visible. A good pair of binoculars can see a fair amount of detail. Amara (hoping she can convince the American University of Rome to buy a portable Celestron/Meade 'scope for her to use in her classes....) -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "If you gaze for long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." - -Nietzsche From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 16:27:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:27:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] electing ideas [was Re:Fahrenheit 911-objectivereview?] In-Reply-To: <015c01c489e9$3f7c9110$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040824162738.22532.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > Samantha Atkins: > > > > That the are for tax cuts and keeping the tax bill down hardly > makes > > said group or person libertarian or even shows that most of the > > proposals are remotely consistent with libertarian ideals. > -samantha > > > Oh, but that is always a great start. A government that > hasn't much money will of necessity focus on the essentials: > common defense and road building. Beyond that, I don't > see it as all that useful. Yeah, and Gover did write for a libertarian magazine in college. That the social conservatives don't like him is a plus to me, and should be to libertarians. No, he isn't 'pure', and I'd doubt he'd pass a litmus test, but frankly such standards are useless in practical politics. It's easiest to ride the freedom train as far as others are willing to take it, then slog your own way from there with whoever else is willing. Don't pass up a free or easier ride just cause you think the conductor has a bad attitude. Nor is ATR a shill for republicans. It is ripping on Ahnuld in Kali because he hasn't been focusing on lowering taxes and spending. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 16:31:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 09:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 01:53, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > I have mentioned a few already. Beyond that I don't think an > honest > > look can fail to supply you with as many examples as you have the > > stomach for. > > That's a cop out. You made the claim, now refuse to back it up. > Just a few words would do. Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take 100,000 lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. > > I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there were some, which is why I > wanted examples. I can find "oppressive" actions, but that is the > nature of both government and war. Shooting someone is a pretty > oppressive act. I don't think we are doing away with either > government or war in the near future. Government being oppressive is a very rational behavior. Being rational does not mean being ethical, moral, good, right, or honorable. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sjvans at ameritech.net Tue Aug 24 16:52:20 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 11:52:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1093366340.1036.57.camel@Renfield> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 11:31, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take 100,000 > lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. To be fair, that was not an unreasonable prediction, had Hussein used chemical weapons and deliberately targeted his own people in an attempt to scare off the Americans, a scenario I don't find altogether improbable. A variation of the Blazing Saddles strategy. A sound argument against the war before it started. > Government being oppressive is a very rational behavior. Being rational > does not mean being ethical, moral, good, right, or honorable. Exactly. There are many good arguments other than "irrational". Instead, I just hear "Bush is dumb", "it's the oil", "conspiracy", etc. Why doesn't the opposition get to the meat of the issue? From amara at amara.com Tue Aug 24 17:59:50 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:59:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] George F. Kennan (politics) Message-ID: Recommended to me from an old JPL friend at our Cassini VIMS meeting in Denver last week. Here is some interesting reading that has a lot of relevance to the political situation today. "Mr. X Speaks: An Interview with George Kennan" (PDF) http://www.afsa.org/fsj/feb04/guldin.pdf George F. Kennan on the Web from: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2496/future/kennan.html Portrait of Kennan by Ned Seidler Russil Wvong / History, politics, and the future / George F. Kennan {begin quote} George F. Kennan (b. 1904), a distinguished US diplomat and historian, was one of the primary architects of US strategy during the Truman Administration. He's Professor Emeritus at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey. Kennan is one of the most thoughtful and eloquent writers I've ever come across, not just on history, international politics, and US-Russian relations, but on American society, questions of personal and political philosophy, and contemporary problems such as nuclear weapons, the environment, population growth, and urbanization. For such a distinguished man, he's also remarkably humble. The role that Kennan played in shaping US postwar strategy-along with his colleagues, including George Marshall, Dean Acheson, Charles Bohlen, Loy Henderson, and John Paton Davies Jr.-makes his writings particularly fascinating. Before World War II, the US had the foreign policy of a "small, neutral nation." After World War II, with the collapse of the European powers, the US found itself confronting the Soviet Union, which set up puppet governments in occupied Eastern Europe and appeared to be threatening a shattered Western Europe as well. Kennan articulated the strategy of patient, long-term "containment" of the Soviet Union, and in particular, the re-establishing of a stable balance of power by rebuilding Western Europe and Japan. As first director of the State Department's Policy Planning Staff from 1947 to 1950, under Marshall and Acheson, Kennan was responsible for long-term planning. He played a major role in both the Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of Japan, as well as overall US strategy towards the Soviet Union. Less laudably, Kennan also played a significant role in launching the CIA's covert operations, which he later described as "the greatest mistake I ever made." He didn't have much to say about policy towards the Third World, where he thought that in any case, the US could not do much to help; he advocated restraint, particularly in the case of China. (Wilson Miscamble's George F. Kennan and the Making of American Foreign Policy, 1947-1950 provides a detailed analysis of Kennan's influence on US policy decisions.) Over time, Kennan became increasingly pessimistic about the ability of the US to follow a realistic, sensitive, and discriminating foreign policy, and to maintain the basic health of US society. In Kennan's view, US foreign policy suffers to a deplorable degree from confusion, ignorance, narcissism, escapism, and irresponsibility. He left the State Department in the early 1950s and joined the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey, hoping to educate the US public and US policymakers by illuminating the history of US-Soviet relations. He also spoke frequently on contemporary problems, particularly the nuclear arms race. Now that the Cold War has, astonishingly, ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union, Kennan argues (e.g. in Around the Cragged Hill) that the US ought to limit its foreign policy to maintaining its alliances with Western Europe and Japan, and ought to focus on addressing its pressing domestic problems. This page provides links to writings by and about George Kennan that are available on the Internet. Some articles (notably those provided by the New York Times and the New York Review of Books) require registration or subscription. {end quote} -------------- Take a look at the section: "2. Reports, articles, lectures, interviews" in particular, * the famous: 'X Paper' The political personality of Soviet power as we know it today is the product of ideology and circumstances: ideology inherited by the present Soviet leaders from the movement in which they had their political origin, and circumstances of the power which they now have exercised for nearly three decades in Russia. There can be few tasks of psychological analysis more difficult than to try to trace the interaction of these two forces and the relative role of each in the determination of official Soviet conduct, yet the attempt must be made if that conduct is to be understood and effectively countered. http://www.historyguide.org/europe/kennan.html and * the 'Long Telegram' February 22, 1946. Published in Foreign Relations of the United States, 1946, vol. VI. US policymakers had been hoping to continue their partnership with the Soviet Union after World War II, and were puzzled as to why the Soviet Union was being so uncooperative, even hostile. Kennan's Long Telegram from the Moscow Embassy explained the Soviet view of the world. It struck a chord and was widely distributed within the Truman Administration. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/coldwar/documents/episode-1/kennan.htm -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Aug 24 18:34:04 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 14:34:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] recap of Perseids: July 23 - August 22; Peak: August 12 Message-ID: <82130-22004822418344401@M2W060.mail2web.com> Amara wrote: Natasha: >Got up at 2:30 a.m. and went outside on the deck to enjoy the showers. >Unfortunatley I was facing East instead of West, but the sky was overcast >anyway and only saw 2 little sparks of light when I turned to face the >right direction. >My last (serious) starwatching was when I took my Orange Coast College >borrowed Cave 8 inch, f8 Newtonian reflector to the desert at Joshua >Tree National Park frequently in ... ~1979-1980 ! I have five favorites: 1. On our honeymoon we were skiing in the Big Bear Mountains. It was during the time of the comet in the late 1970s. Fabulous. 2. At Talaquez Rock east of Los Angeles - we (along with two friends) lay down on blankets to warch the sky's performance. Fantastic. mid 1970s 3. In Arizona with Chris and Pam Heward and children. Chris woke us all up in the wee hours and we went outside bundles in blankets - (Chris and the kids were reclining on the large trampoline.) Delightful. late 1990s 4. At Mountain High Mountains in California - Went with one of my best friends who is an astronomer and was the Director of Education at the Science and Space Museum - we climbed up on large boudlers and drank hot chocklate. Amazing. late 1980s 5. At sea - sailing from Puerto Rico to Brazil - it was so unbelievable - out in the middle of the ocean - no land in sight - sailing for three months ... 1970s Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From benboc at lineone.net Tue Aug 24 20:52:13 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 21:52:13 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Robots In-Reply-To: <200408241800.i7OI0m010752@tick.javien.com> References: <200408241800.i7OI0m010752@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <412BAA7D.8010204@lineone.net> *Humanoid* robots (for fighting) sounds daft to me. Too easy to trip up, surely, and if one leg gets damaged, it can't move (i doubt a hopping robot soldier would be very menacing). So, how about this: Insectoid fighting robots. I'm thinking of something along the lines of the insect soldiers in the 'Starship Troopers' movie, or the 'shadows' in Bablylon 5. Plenty of redundant legs (six legs are easier to control than two, anyway, and static stability is a plus in a robot with limited energy), and then there's the psychological aspect; Well, what would make you run away screaming, a giant metal man with a big gun, or a bloody great spiky-legged cockroach/spider/worst nightmare thing, with clacking jaws and a big gun? Just building the things would be scary enough, never mind having one scuttling after you at 50mph. If you're going to build robot soldiers, you might as well take advantage of human psychology, and build *terrifying* robot soldiers. Of course, if they are going up against other robots rather than humans, the psychology angle doesn't apply, but the other things still do. ben From sentience at pobox.com Tue Aug 24 21:08:38 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 17:08:38 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Robots In-Reply-To: <412BAA7D.8010204@lineone.net> References: <200408241800.i7OI0m010752@tick.javien.com> <412BAA7D.8010204@lineone.net> Message-ID: <412BAE56.9090504@pobox.com> ben wrote: > > Plenty of redundant legs (six legs are easier to control than two, > anyway, and static stability is a plus in a robot with limited energy), > and then there's the psychological aspect; Well, what would make you run > away screaming, a giant metal man with a big gun, or a bloody great > spiky-legged cockroach/spider/worst nightmare thing, with clacking jaws > and a big gun? > > Just building the things would be scary enough, never mind having one > scuttling after you at 50mph. > > If you're going to build robot soldiers, you might as well take > advantage of human psychology, and build *terrifying* robot soldiers. What a notion! Oh, what a beautiful notion! It's just what we've all been waiting for, the perfect military excuse to build giant killer spiders that scream in the night, and hideous oozing blobs that hide in enemy closets and then leap out and engulf people! We wouldn't've lost if our brave soldiers had been armed with *those* in Vietnam! Someone phone the DOD: The War on Terror needs a War *with* Terror. The time has come to unleash Yog-Sothoth, Eater of Terrorists! Fear death by slime monster! -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Aug 24 22:02:11 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <1093366340.1036.57.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <20040824220211.27292.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 11:31, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take > 100,000 > > lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. > > To be fair, that was not an unreasonable prediction, had Hussein used > chemical weapons and deliberately targeted his own people in an > attempt to scare off the Americans, a scenario I don't find altogether > improbable. A variation of the Blazing Saddles strategy. > > A sound argument against the war before it started. Well, yes, it would have been a sound argument IF Samantha had also thought that Hussein actually had WMD.... she didn't.... > > > Government being oppressive is a very rational behavior. Being > rational > > does not mean being ethical, moral, good, right, or honorable. > > Exactly. There are many good arguments other than "irrational". > Instead, I just hear "Bush is dumb", "it's the oil", "conspiracy", > etc. Why doesn't the opposition get to the meat of the issue? Cause they can't? Cause most people don't think there is any meat on that side... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Aug 24 22:10:39 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 15:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Robots In-Reply-To: <412BAA7D.8010204@lineone.net> Message-ID: <20040824221039.74016.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- ben wrote: > *Humanoid* robots (for fighting) sounds daft to me. > Too easy to trip up, surely, and if one leg gets > damaged, it can't move > (i doubt a hopping robot soldier would be very > menacing). > > So, how about this: Insectoid fighting robots. Two-legged robots have their advantages...although most of those (like greater agility - which comes as a direct cost to static stability) might need a lot of development to win out. Insectoids might make sense for early iterations. > If you're going to build robot soldiers, you might > as well take > advantage of human psychology, and build > *terrifying* robot soldiers. > > Of course, if they are going up against other robots > rather than humans, > the psychology angle doesn't apply, but the other > things still do. Unless they're going up against other robots that are remotely piloted by humans, who in turn have to look at their targets. The impact might be diminished since they're looking through a camera, but in many cases, even a moment's hesitation can decide a fight. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Aug 24 23:18:26 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:18:26 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY><1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield><5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > I find this all very distressing, since I think a strong opposition is > essential to civil society. Yet much of what I see from the opposition > these days amount to personal attacks ("irrational", "honest", "Bush is > dumb") and a refusal to debate the facts and issues. It is ultimately > self-defeating. It is not like there aren't a great many sound > arguments against the course of action being taken. I agree that its unpleasant to see only bad or spurious reasons given for opposing things, but unfortunately, unless you are referring to what's good for an email list, rather than what is good for an electoral outcome, it isn't self defeating. In a two person contest like the US Presidential election only one will win and one will loose. The system doesn't differentiate whether a vote is cast for a candidate or against the other candidate. Two dummies voting the opposite way to you cancel your vote and exceed it by exactly one. Little wonder the messages are pitched at lowest common denominators. The power that resides in the US Presidency is such that who is in the role matters not just for US citizens but for the west and for the world. Intelligence (or the lack of dumbness) matters in potential President's like a capacity to fly planes matters in pilots. I don't care whether there is a republican or a democrat in the whitehouse but I do care that the guy (and it will be a guy) has a sufficient grasp of all the tools at his disposal, which includes or should include diplomatic skill as well as military might. A commander in chief will and must rely on intelligence agencies of course but the intelligence between his/her own ears is always going to a decisively limiting factor regardless of the quality of his/her advice. When Bush bungled the handling of the UN after getting resolution 1441 agreed to unanimously and invaded Iraq on a timetable that he alone was setting and against resolution 1441 and against the UN Charter he squandered an opportunity to strengthen civilization (a more capable President could have handled the UN situation better and made the UN a better institution in the interests of the US and of the rest of the world) instead, working to a timetable and/or an agenda of his own, he decided to just go ahead and invade. Brett Paatsch From sjvans at ameritech.net Tue Aug 24 23:36:44 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:36:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <20040824220211.27292.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040824220211.27292.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1093390603.1036.77.camel@Renfield> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 17:02, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Well, yes, it would have been a sound argument IF Samantha had also > thought that Hussein actually had WMD.... she didn't.... Well, then, yes, not very convincing. > Cause they can't? Cause most people don't think there is any meat on > that side... Oh, I think there is some. For instance, real isolationism...letting the world sink or swim on its own, more or less closing the borders, mass deportations, etc., is probably a valid alternate strategy. I personally think that it would do more harm than good for the US, but I can see where reasonable people might differ. But no one offers real solutions, just platitudes like "working with our allies" (like Australia and the UK aren't allies). From sjvans at ameritech.net Tue Aug 24 23:43:45 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 18:43:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield> <5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield> <03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1093391024.1036.85.camel@Renfield> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 18:18, Brett Paatsch wrote: > I agree that its unpleasant to see only bad or spurious reasons > given for opposing things, but unfortunately, unless you are referring > to what's good for an email list, rather than what is good for an > electoral outcome, it isn't self defeating. Well, we'll see what is or isn't self defeating in November, the only real test. > When Bush bungled the handling of the UN after getting resolution > 1441 agreed to unanimously and invaded Iraq on a timetable that he > alone was setting and against resolution 1441 and against the UN > Charter he squandered an opportunity to strengthen civilization > (a more capable President could have handled the UN situation > better and made the UN a better institution in the interests of the > US and of the rest of the world) instead, working to a timetable > and/or an agenda of his own, he decided to just go ahead and > invade. How would a more capable President have handled the situation? The only alternative I can see was standing down the troops and letting the sanctions collapse. And how, exactly, was the invasion in violation of 1441 and the Charter? Although, that is really beside the point. Arguing fine points of international law is silly when no one else seems to feel a need to be bound by them. From paatschb at optusnet.com.au Wed Aug 25 00:45:36 2004 From: paatschb at optusnet.com.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:45:36 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY><1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield><5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield><03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> <1093391024.1036.85.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <03f801c48a3c$d63f73d0$362c2dcb@homepc> Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 18:18, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > I agree that its unpleasant to see only bad or spurious reasons > > given for opposing things, but unfortunately, unless you are referring > > to what's good for an email list, rather than what is good for an > > electoral outcome, it isn't self defeating. > > Well, we'll see what is or isn't self defeating in November, the only > real test. I don't think we will actually. The fact of a Bush or Kerry victory won't tell us how or why voters voted as they did. > > When Bush bungled the handling of the UN after getting resolution > > 1441 agreed to unanimously and invaded Iraq on a timetable that he > > alone was setting and against resolution 1441 and against the UN > > Charter he squandered an opportunity to strengthen civilization > > (a more capable President could have handled the UN situation > > better and made the UN a better institution in the interests of the > > US and of the rest of the world) instead, working to a timetable > > and/or an agenda of his own, he decided to just go ahead and > > invade. > > How would a more capable President have handled the situation? > The only alternative I can see was standing down the troops and letting > the sanctions collapse. And how, exactly, was the invasion in violation > of 1441 and the Charter? Although, that is really beside the point. Damn, this is frustrating. On one hand you ask some excellent questions (above) but no sooner do you do so then you say ... > Arguing fine points of international law is silly when no one else seems > to feel a need to be bound by them. This sentence takes away almost the motivation I could have for taking the time and effort of trying to pursuade you intellectually by providing links and letting you see for yourself because you *seem* to be forewarning me that for you international law is *silly*. So where's the payoff for me? Can't you see that without international law there can be no international peace ever? How could there be when nations would inevitably war for the simple reason that the strong wants what the weak has and the weak have no alternative but to meet force with force. Do you want all the innovators and industries of the future to dedicate themselves to war technologies rather than to life-extension technologies? Is "terrorism" for you just what the other guy does to you and yours regardless of what you do to them and theirs, or is it rather a breach of some standard by which third parties can look in and be outraged too? September 11 was a terrorist act in my book because civilians we're attacked without warning and against international law. The attackers were not US citizens. The standard they broke was not a US-only standard. Now the question is almost was it EVEN a US standard. Can't you see that only the strongest countries and the brightest minds can make the peace because the weakest are too much on the defensive and too much in fear of the strongest? What a person thinks is silly can define their limitations to other people. What a democratic nation of voters think its silly may just define their durability as a great nation. Brett Paatsch From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Aug 25 01:22:14 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 20:22:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <03f801c48a3c$d63f73d0$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield> <5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield><03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> <1093391024.1036.85.camel@Renfield> <03f801c48a3c$d63f73d0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1093396934.1036.111.camel@Renfield> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 19:45, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Damn, this is frustrating. On one hand you ask some excellent questions > (above) but no sooner do you do so then you say ... My apologies, I was being snarky. I can fully understand why you would find my comment frustrating. I agree that international law is a prerequisite for world peace and prosperity. What I do think is that it is dangerous to consider international law as highly evolved and well developed as, say, US commercial law. Therefore, splitting hairs the way that a contract lawyer might is counterproductive, *at this time*, to the purpose of international law, which is (or should be), peace, freedom, and prosperity. Furthermore, what use is law without enforcement? There *are* no international police. The current situation with international law is similar to the situation prior to the development of police forces, i.e. enforcement was primarily a private matter, with the law picking up the pieces and deciding who is right after the fact. I am more concerned with the way things are, rather than the way they ought to be. If international law is to have any meaning, Saddam should have been in prison 20 years ago, and Pol Pot would not have died in bed of old age. How do we get from here to there? I don't know, but I'm pretty sure that it's not by giving murderous dictators a pass while hamstringing liberal democracies. Still, I *am* interested in the way international law is, and how it is developing, and would be interested in what parts of international law, UN resolutions, and the laws and customs of warfare you think the US has violated. If you don't wish to play, though, I understand. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 04:59:42 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:29:42 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction Speed Test Message-ID: <710b78fc040824215920f5bf6f@mail.gmail.com> http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-edbabfb773-0a783fd610-1c7ea9969b -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Aug 25 05:11:34 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction Speed Test In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040824215920f5bf6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040825051134.13645.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-edbabfb773-0a783fd610-1c7ea9969b *slaps buzzer* ;) ...though I'll pass, thanks. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 05:14:18 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:44:18 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction Speed Test In-Reply-To: <20040825051134.13645.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040825051134.13645.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0408242214b030ef1@mail.gmail.com> Good effort! Next? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > > http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-edbabfb773-0a783fd610-1c7ea9969b > > *slaps buzzer* ;) > > ....though I'll pass, thanks. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Aug 25 06:36:10 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:06:10 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reaction Speed Test In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0408242214b030ef1@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040825051134.13645.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc0408242214b030ef1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04082423362756ae3e@mail.gmail.com> I just received notification that this has been grabbed. Better luck next time, everyone else! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 14:44:18 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Good effort! > > Next? > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > On Tue, 24 Aug 2004 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes > wrote: > > --- Emlyn wrote: > > > > > http://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-edbabfb773-0a783fd610-1c7ea9969b > > > > *slaps buzzer* ;) > > > > ....though I'll pass, thanks. > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Aug 25 09:41:43 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 11:41:43 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fighting Robots In-Reply-To: <412BAA7D.8010204@lineone.net> References: <200408241800.i7OI0m010752@tick.javien.com> <412BAA7D.8010204@lineone.net> Message-ID: <412C5ED7.8080500@mail.tele.dk> ben wrote: > So, how about this: Insectoid fighting robots. > > I'm thinking of something along the lines of the insect soldiers in the > 'Starship Troopers' movie, or the 'shadows' in Bablylon 5. Wasp sized flying robots with strong poison would probably be more efficient. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 13:18:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 06:18:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040825131838.91499.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > > > I find this all very distressing, since I think a strong opposition > is > > essential to civil society. Yet much of what I see from the > opposition > > these days amount to personal attacks ("irrational", "honest", > "Bush is > > dumb") and a refusal to debate the facts and issues. It is > ultimately > > self-defeating. It is not like there aren't a great many sound > > arguments against the course of action being taken. > > I agree that its unpleasant to see only bad or spurious reasons > given for opposing things, but unfortunately, unless you are > referring > to what's good for an email list, rather than what is good for an > electoral outcome, it isn't self defeating. > > In a two person contest like the US Presidential election only one > will win and one will loose. The system doesn't differentiate whether > a vote is cast for a candidate or against the other candidate. Two > dummies voting the opposite way to you cancel your vote and exceed > it by exactly one. Little wonder the messages are pitched at lowest > common denominators. Actually, Michael Badnarik had something to say about the myth of the 'wasted vote' at the LP Convention in Atlanta. "If you were on death row, and you had a 50% chance of being executed by lethal injection, and a 45% chance of getting the electric chair, and only a 5% chance of escaping, would you vote for the most likely outcome, or the more tolerable death, just because they seemed to be the most likely choice? NO! You'd vote to escape each and every time. Voting for the lesser evil just means you wind up with evil government." This is the best dismissal of the wasted vote myth I've ever heard, because the fact is that the other candidates are on agendas of power, slavery, and death to the common man. LIVE WHAT YOU BELIEVE ..... and come to NH while you are at it... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Aug 25 13:50:54 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:50:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nicholas Kristof and `irreversible' genetic changes Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040825084906.01b62ae0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> [A reply to http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/25/opinion/25kristof.html?th :] Dear Mr Kristof You evoke a popular anxiety: "Genetic tinkering gives me the willies. My concern is [...] with the possibility that we will irreversibly change what it is to be human." But this is very odd, surely? In my forthcoming book *Ferocious Minds: Polymathy and the New Enlightenment*, I discuss that fear of irreversibly by reference to environmentalist Bill McKibben's recent alarmist book: ===================== ...in *Enough: Staying Human in an Engineered Age* (2003), [McKibben] has advanced a nightmare prospect of genetic engineering that will tear the human species from our ancient roots and turn us into something terrible, robotic, without meaning. Such medical options, he has urged, ought to be made illegal (in more general terms that cover any germline enhancements): `People shouldn't be allowed to choose things this deep for their children (and for every generation thereafter),' (192) The slip of logic is customary in such Jeremiads, but no less bizarre for that. Watch McKibben's hands carefully: If we gain the power to make *any changes we wish* in the DNA of our offspring, this should be forbidden. Why so? Because these changes will thereafter be *permanently embedded* in the species. Note how the argument starts by assuming what it then denies: that science will provide us with the power to alter, enhance, add, or delete genes. The bogeyman of `permanent embeddedness' is precisely a relic of previous, more restricted technologies. McKibben goes on to draw out dire recommendations from his misunderstanding. Making such germinal-choice changes illegal, he admits, "will involve limiting freedom, just as forbidding people to drive their cars the wrong way down one-way street limits freedom. The liberty of one generation, ours, would be in some small way constrained... in order to protect the far more basic liberties of those yet to come. To demand this right is to make a mockery of liberty. It's to choose, forever, against choice." (192) What we are headed toward, McKibben asserts (in his wooly confusion), is a regime of `programmed' lives, known totally in advance, which will be `ineradicable' (because by then, even if the prowess remains, our will shall have been sapped; we will be contented Stepford Hive drones). Absurdly, given where he is avowedly coming from, he writes as a simple-minded genetic determinist. Once those devilish genes are locked in place, we will be obliged to march forever to their drumming, without passion or challenge or the poignancy of death and its rewarding, decent return to the embrace of Nature. In reality, the danger is not primarily from gene technology. Genes, and the proteins they code for, do significantly ordain our bent, and some of our limitations and abilities, but they do not *program* us. The true danger arises from the conceptual mischief liable to be spread by pseudo-arguments like McKibben's. ================= Now it might be that what you fear will be irreversibly changed is not some particular phenotype but the very immutability of inheritance itself (modulo nutrition, health care, education, culture in general). Is that of urgent concern? Perhaps so, but it seems to me to resemble other changes in the past: the change away from irreversible degradation of eyesight, once spectacles were invented, and so on. But I get the feeling that this moment of anxiety is more primal than any list of such technical changes wrought by new knowledge; that we are feeling essentialist qualms at the prospect of fast change to aspects of ourselves that seem better masked in mystery and evasion. Although it's a widespread sentiment that does need to be taken into account, that's not a very good basis for making policy, it seems to me. Damien Broderick Senior Fellow, Department of English University of Melbourne biblio: www.thespike.us From rafal at smigrodzki.org Wed Aug 25 14:20:01 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 10:20:01 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reversible genetic change Message-ID: <412CA011.5060001@smigrodzki.org> Damien Broderick wrote: > [A reply to http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/25/opinion/25kristof.html?th :] > > Dear Mr Kristof > > You evoke a popular anxiety: "Genetic tinkering gives me the willies. My concern is [...] with the possibility that we will irreversibly change what it is to be human." ### Mitochondrial replacement therapy (see my presentation at TV'04) promises reversible genetic modification. In the future, artificial chromosomes will give even more choice. Our adversaries' arguments are already moot (we only need to get the word out). Rafal From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Aug 25 14:42:25 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 09:42:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Reversible genetic change In-Reply-To: <412CA011.5060001@smigrodzki.org> References: <412CA011.5060001@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040825094117.01b27ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:20 AM 8/25/2004 -0400, Rafal wrote: >(see my presentation at TV'04) I've been hoping you might post it here, or an url to some site with the full text (if available). Damien Broderick From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 25 23:19:37 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2004 16:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nicholas Kristof and `irreversible' genetic changes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040825084906.01b62ae0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040825231937.9744.qmail@web60501.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > What we are headed toward, McKibben asserts (in his > wooly confusion), is a > regime of `programmed' lives, known totally in > advance, which will be > `ineradicable' (because by then, even if the prowess > remains, our will > shall have been sapped; we will be contented > Stepford Hive drones). > Absurdly, given where he is avowedly coming from, he > writes as a > simple-minded genetic determinist. Once those > devilish genes are locked in > place, we will be obliged to march forever to their > drumming, without > passion or challenge or the poignancy of death and > its rewarding, decent > return to the embrace of Nature. Well spoken, Damien. To think that engineered genes could make us less human, "sap our will", and oblige us to march to their drumming is silly. It ignores precisely what it means to be human. Being human is all about having a mind and a will capable of defying any genetic programming. After all the normal "god-given" genes I have now tell me to do all sorts of bad things like sleep with other men's wives, steal their stuff, and beat them to a pulp if they annoy me. The reason I don't do any of these things is that my mind rejects these urges and in this and only this am I exercising what truly makes me human and not some dumb animal. This McKibben seems to think that if I were to get engineered genes to lower my cholesterol or see in the dark, I would suddenly forget I have a mind and become some mindless drone or savage animal? Ridiculous. If he worried about future generations having their will sapped and living "programmed lives" he would be better off campaigning against mass media marketing than against genetic engineering. After all it is television (actually the unscrupulous elite that control it) that will be mostly responsible for sapping our wills and turning our kids into fat, lazy, complacent, mindless drones that only get off the couch long enough to rush out and buy "super-sized" fast food or whatever garbage the Madison Avenue spin doctors hail as the next big thing. What is it with people that they would rather tolerate a familiar evil than risk an uncertain good? ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Aug 25 23:33:41 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:33:41 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY><1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield><5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield><03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc><1093391024.1036.85.camel@Renfield><03f801c48a3c$d63f73d0$362c2dcb@homepc> <1093396934.1036.111.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <00bd01c48afb$f43ded20$362c2dcb@homepc> Stephen J. Van Sickle write: >... What I do think is that it > is dangerous to consider international law as highly evolved > and well developed as, say, US commercial law. Therefore, > splitting hairs the way that a contract lawyer might is > counterproductive, *at this time*, to the purpose of international > law, which is (or should be), peace, freedom, and prosperity. Security is the first thing that has to be gotten right in international law. That is why the UN Charter matters. Without security "trade" is used like an Orwellian term for exploit or plunder. > Furthermore, what use is law without enforcement? No use. > There *are* no international police. Nations that are signatories to the UN charter like the US have given their word of honour. If the strong don't keep their word the weak see it and will only pretend to keep theirs. At present only US citizens can hold a US President to account for breaking an agreement or a treaty. > ... The current situation with international law is > similar to the situation prior to the development of police forces, i.e. > enforcement was primarily a private matter, with the law picking up the > pieces and deciding who is right after the fact. Well it is now after the fact, Iraq was invaded, no weapons of mass destruction were found, if I show you that it was illegal, what would you do? > I am more concerned with the way things are, rather than the way they > ought to be. If international law is to have any meaning, Saddam should > have been in prison 20 years ago, and Pol Pot would not have died in bed > of old age. On the one hand your arguing that international law had (or has) to evolve - that makes sense - there could not be international law without nations that recognized a need for it, but then about you mix present and past tenses as though time doesn't matter. If international law IS to have meaning you say ... Saddam should have .. Pol Pot would have.. The fact is that for most of its history the UN was blocked from taking effective action against anything that any one of the 5 permanent security council members could veto. It is only now that the US has become the sole military superpower that any country really has a chance to reform and improve the UN. If the US doesn't do it - then the US will be an impossible blocker to it happening because of the US's power. It simply comes down to what US citizens want. There was a window of opportunity, after 1441 was signed and before Iraq was invaded when President Bush (or a better person in his role) could have made the UN work by threatening (without bluffing) to revoke the UN Charter and to withdraw the US from the United Nations. Bush blinked in the critical diplomatic game of brinksmanship with Chirac of France. (All of which assumes of course that Bush was genuine in wanting to get a UN resolution and genuine in being concerned about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction - at the time I was giving him the benefit of the doubt on both those things). I wrote quite a lot on this at the time. It is hard (not impossible but time consuming) to recreate the historical details that constituted the window of opportunity now because the world's attention has moved on to more current events. > How do we get from here to there? Progress in the short term depends on US citizens. They can sanction or accept illegal or legal actions of their President. In the long term what goes around comes around... but in the long term most of here are dead. > I don't know, but I'm pretty sure > that it's not by giving murderous dictators a pass while hamstringing > liberal democracies. > Still, I *am* interested in the way international law is, and how it is > developing, and would be interested in what parts of international law, > UN resolutions, and the laws and customs of warfare you think the > US has violated. If you don't wish to play, though, I understand. The UN Charter is not a long document, and the structure of the UN Security Council is pretty simple and logical. Being signed in 1945, it would be older than most of the posters to this list. I do not think that people will come up with a simpler or more logical template for managing international peace and security. I don't think that there is one. I do wish to play but am tired. I have looked through the Exi archives in 2003. I wrote ad nauseum on this topic and what I wrote seems to have affected nothing. I have to draw my own conclusions on that. Brett Paatsch From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Aug 26 00:38:04 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:38:04 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY><1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield><5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield><03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> <1093391024.1036.85.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <00da01c48b04$f2c9ad90$362c2dcb@homepc> Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > > > When Bush bungled the handling of the UN after getting resolution > > 1441 agreed to unanimously and invaded Iraq on a timetable that he > > alone was setting and against resolution 1441 and against the UN > > Charter he squandered an opportunity to strengthen civilization > > (a more capable President could have handled the UN situation > > better and made the UN a better institution in the interests of the > > US and of the rest of the world) instead, working to a timetable > > and/or an agenda of his own, he decided to just go ahead and > > invade. > > How would a more capable President have handled the situation? He'd have threatened to revoke the Charter and withdraw the US from the UN in the media if Chirac of France did not come up with a general standard for determining when the UN Security Council should go to war. The security council has to be willing to go to war sometimes or their can be no peace. At a critical point Chirac of France was saying that France would "never, never" go to war. Had Saddam had weapons of mass destruction Chiracs position would have given him confidence that the UN would not and could not invade because the French President would not make the necessary call and as a permanent security council member could veto and resolution that would have required force. So Bush should have challenged Chirac in the media to come up with a standard (in murder trials its 'proof beyond reasonable doubt', in civil trials its 'on the balance of probabilities') and should have stated in the media that unless France was willing to be practical international laws aimed at maintaining internation peace and security were meaningless so Chirac should either come up with a standard (a standard that would have been applied in the case of Iraq) or that he George W Bush would deem that the UN Charter had been revoked by France. Chirac would have had to come up with a standard. The standard would have been applied. If Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction it would not have been invaded but the UN would have had a standard to use for go-to-war don't-go-to-war decisions in the future. In a world where terrorists could have weapons of mass distruction it is not unreasonable that the sovereignty of countries be put aside provided that it is done in the right way. There is not currently a workable right way. Bush could have made it so that there was - but instead he chose a wrong way. > The only alternative I can see was standing down the troops and > letting the sanctions collapse. And how, exactly, was the invasion > in violation of 1441 and the Charter? The charter makes it unlawful to invade sovereign countries (except in self defence - eg Afghanistan) or with security council approval which would come in the form of a resolution. 1441 was the unanimous resolution that threaten "serious consequence" on Iraq if it did not comply with previous resolutions and did not show that it did not posses weapons of mass destruction. The security council with 1441 gave Iraq one "final opportunity" to comply. And the security council advised that it was "seized of the matter" ie. the security council had assumed jurisdiction and the US has concurred in the assumption of jurisdiction. Because "serious consequences" did not explicitly authorise invasion another security council resolution was required to authorise it. The UK and the US argued that it wasn't necessary that the authorisation to invade was contained in previous resolutions relating to the cease fire after Kuwait. That was arrant rot which the UK and the US only fell back on as a peice of obscrure legalese able to be slipped past the public. Because the security council gave Iraq one "final opportunity" and because it was "seized of the matter" only the security council could determine when the "final opportunity" was over. The security council never made such a determination because Bush was not willing to go back to it to loose his legalistic pretext. To have done so would have made it clear to the whole world (if it wasn't already) that the UN security council did not think the use of force at that time was warranted - inspections were still going on etc. The UK, Spain and the US had prepared another resolution that effectively said only that the "final opportunity" granted Iraq under 1441 was up. But they never tabled the resolution to be voted on because it was clear that it would not have gotten up and in failing to get up the PR battle would be lost. So Bush and the coalition of the willing invaded before the security council had deemed Iraq's final opportunity over. That was clear cut illegal. And as it turned out Iraq didn't have the weapons. The tradgedy is that the concerns over weapons were not unreasonable and the criticisms made of the UN were not unreasonable - there can be no peace under the United Nations if the United Nations Security Council would not enforce it - but it was within the range of Bush's possible diplomatic moves to make the UN security council live up to its mandate - he either just didn't see the move (to challenge Chirac to produce a standard or he would deem the UN Charter revoked) - or he didn't want to see it - he wanted to invade Iraq whether it had weapons or not. Brett Paatsch From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Aug 26 19:06:18 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 14:06:18 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] [fwd] Werner's Syndrome Mice Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040826140533.01b173a0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> [our absent pal Robert Bradbury posted this to another list:] It is being reported [1,2] that researchers seem to finally have a workable model for Werner's Syndrome in mice. Having to cross WRN and telomerase deficient mice and then breed them to get short telomeres points out how complex species differences may be in both (a) the activity level of genes in specific tissues and (b) physical attributes of specific genomes (such as telomere length) in influencing disease development rates and overall aspects of aging. The fact that the mouse cancer profiles did not generally match human cancer profiles may suggest that there are still some things we are missing here, for example, throwing out a couple of off the cuff examples, the human immune system may be better at eliminating certain types of cancer than the mouse immune system is or mice may have diminished defenses against mutations in certain tissues. While we *are* making progress the problems are complex. A quick PubMed scan this morning suggested that the W.S. gene may interact with up to 15 other proteins involved in DNA replication & repair. The answers are going to come very slowly I fear. Robert 1. "Mouse Model Of Rare Disease Offers Clues To Aging And Cancer Development" http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/08/040820082119.htm 2. Chang S, Multani AS, Cabrera NG, Naylor ML, Laud P, Lombard D, Pathak S, Guarente L, DePinho RA. Essential role of limiting telomeres in the pathogenesis of Werner syndrome. Nat Genet. 2004 Aug;36(8):877-82. Epub 2004 Jul 04. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15235603 From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Aug 26 19:15:02 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:15:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Most Dangerous Idea" (that is us) Message-ID: <151560-22004842619152101@M2W066.mail2web.com> Friends, I just read this on the ExtroBritannia list and wanted to forward it to you all: "'What ideas, if embraced, would pose the greatest threat to the welfare of humanity?' That question was posed to eight prominent policy intellectuals by the editors of Foreign Policy in its September/October issue (not yet available online). One of the eight savants consulted was Francis Fukuyama, professor of international political economy at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, author of Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the Biotechnology Revolution, and a member of the President's Council on Bioethics. His choice for the world's most dangerous idea? Transhumanism." Transhumanism: The Most Dangerous Idea? Ronald Bailey http://www.reason.com/rb/rb082504.shtml -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jpnitya at verizon.net Thu Aug 26 19:22:51 2004 From: jpnitya at verizon.net (Joao Magalhaes) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:22:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [fwd] Werner's Syndrome Mice In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040826140533.01b173a0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040826140533.01b173a0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040826151303.01cae6a0@incoming.verizon.net> Hi, I've read the paper and these animals do not display such a marked accelerated aging phenotype as do human patients with WS. Therefore, the possibility exists that Werner Syndrome mice suffer from accelerated pathology rather than accelerated aging, a bit like it appears to happen in the Lamin A mutant mice. The reference for the LMNA mutants: Nikolova V, et al (2004) Defects in nuclear structure and function promote dilated cardiomyopathy in lamin A/C-deficient mice. J Clin Invest 113:357-69. Actually, WRN appears to interact with at least 17 other proteins (http://genomics.senescence.info/genes/entry.php?id=13). On the issue of protein interactions and aging, there was a fun paper by Daniel Promislow arguing that proteins more likely to be involved in aging are the ones with the higher connectivity--that is, with the higher number of protein-protein interactions. The reference is: Promislow DE. Protein networks, pleiotropy and the evolution of senescence. Proc R Soc Lond B Biol Sci. 2004 Jun 22;271(1545):1225-34. His ideas are a good complement to my own recent paper: de Magalh?es, JP and Toussaint, O (2004) "GenAge: a genomic and proteomic network map of human ageing." FEBS Letters 571(1-3):243-247. Lastly, those of you interested in telomeres and telomerase as a way to delay aging may be interested in another recent paper of mine: de Magalh?es, JP and Toussaint, O (2004) "Telomeres and telomerase: a modern Fountain of Youth?" Rejuvenation Research 7:126-132. All the best, Joao --- Joao Pedro de Magalhaes, PhD Harvard Medical School, Dept. of Genetics Avenue Louis Pasteur, 77, Room 238 Boston, MA 02115 Telephone: 1-617-432-6550 http://www.senescence.info From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Aug 26 20:32:05 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Most Dangerous Idea" (that is us) In-Reply-To: <151560-22004842619152101@M2W066.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040826203205.88375.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> "First they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win, and they say they knew you were right all along." Sounds like transhumanism is solidly out of the kook phase of development. --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > Friends, > > I just read this on the ExtroBritannia list and wanted to forward it > to you > all: > > "'What ideas, if embraced, would pose the greatest threat to the > welfare of humanity?' That question was posed to eight prominent > policy intellectuals by the editors of Foreign Policy in its > September/October issue (not yet available online). One of the eight > savants consulted was Francis Fukuyama, professor of international > political economy at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International > Studies, author of Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the > Biotechnology Revolution, and a member of the President's Council on > Bioethics. His choice for the world's most dangerous idea? > Transhumanism." > > Transhumanism: The Most Dangerous Idea? > Ronald Bailey > http://www.reason.com/rb/rb082504.shtml > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 00:03:08 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:33:08 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Most Dangerous Idea" (that is us) In-Reply-To: <151560-22004842619152101@M2W066.mail2web.com> References: <151560-22004842619152101@M2W066.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04082617035288c91d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:15:02 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Friends, > > I just read this on the ExtroBritannia list and wanted to forward it to you > all: > > "'What ideas, if embraced, would pose the greatest threat to the > welfare of humanity?' That question was posed to eight prominent > policy intellectuals by the editors of Foreign Policy in its > September/October issue (not yet available online). One of the eight > savants consulted was Francis Fukuyama, professor of international > political economy at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International > Studies, author of Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the > Biotechnology Revolution, and a member of the President's Council on > Bioethics. His choice for the world's most dangerous idea? > Transhumanism." > > Transhumanism: The Most Dangerous Idea? > Ronald Bailey > http://www.reason.com/rb/rb082504.shtml > woohoo! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 07:04:49 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:04:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <00da01c48b04$f2c9ad90$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY><1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield><5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield><03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc> <1093391024.1036.85.camel@Renfield> <00da01c48b04$f2c9ad90$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <948b11e040827000447544006@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 10:38:04 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > > > > > When Bush bungled the handling of the UN after getting resolution > > > 1441 agreed to unanimously and invaded Iraq on a timetable that he > > > alone was setting and against resolution 1441 and against the UN > > > Charter he squandered an opportunity to strengthen civilization > > > (a more capable President could have handled the UN situation > > > better and made the UN a better institution in the interests of the > > > US and of the rest of the world) instead, working to a timetable > > > and/or an agenda of his own, he decided to just go ahead and > > > invade. > > > > How would a more capable President have handled the situation? > > He'd have threatened to revoke the Charter and withdraw the US > from the UN in the media if Chirac of France did not come up > with a general standard for determining when the UN Security Council > should go to war. The security council has to be willing to go to war > sometimes or their can be no peace. At a critical point Chirac > of France was saying that France would "never, never" go to war. > Nonsense! Hypocrisy! One nation's head must come up with when to go to war and if he doesn't we simply withdraw altogether? Isn't this ignoring the 60-odd very strong resolutions against the behavior of Israel whom we support nearly without reservation and never call for a war against? There was no good evidence for war worthy breaking of UN weapsons resolution in Iraq. So France and other countries quite rightly held back. We went ahead anyway and made fools of ourselves to say the least. > Had Saddam had weapons of mass destruction Chiracs position would > have given him confidence that the UN would not and could not invade > because the French President would not make the necessary call and > as a permanent security council member could veto and resolution that > would have required force. > You mean like we have vetoed any action against Israel for all these many long years? Besides you are setting up a hypothetical that is pure supposition. > > If Iraq didn't have weapons of mass destruction it would not have been > invaded but the UN would have had a standard to use for go-to-war > don't-go-to-war decisions in the future. > A standard is a reasonable thing but I don't see it was Chirac who was principally in the way of one or that we should have withdrawn if Chirac did not come up with one. > In a world where terrorists could have weapons of mass distruction > it is not unreasonable that the sovereignty of countries be put aside > provided that it is done in the right way. There is not currently a > workable right way. Bush could have made it so that there was > - but instead he chose a wrong way. > In a world where the down-trodden may use terrorism I would advise being damn careful about invading people's homeland on suspicion. I would also advise being careful about bullying various peoples. Impunity is harder to come by. Of course this advice will be considered being "soft on terrorism". More "realistic" folks will instead turn the world into an armed camp and throw away their freedoms to stop those insane terrorists who "hate us because we are good". > > The only alternative I can see was standing down the troops and > > letting the sanctions collapse. The sanctions had been outrageous for a long time. Largely they should have been dropped long ago. > > The charter makes it unlawful to invade sovereign countries (except > in self defence - eg Afghanistan) or with security council approval > which would come in the form of a resolution. > Afghanistan was not self-defense. > 1441 was the unanimous resolution that threaten "serious consequence" > on Iraq if it did not comply with previous resolutions and did not show > that it did not posses weapons of mass destruction. > It seems to me it did its best to prove a negative. We didn't really give a shit about WMD to start with of course. We were bound and determined to go in. > > Because the security council gave Iraq one "final opportunity" and > because it was "seized of the matter" only the security council > could determine when the "final opportunity" was over. > > The security council never made such a determination because > Bush was not willing to go back to it to loose his legalistic pretext. > > To have done so would have made it clear to the whole world > (if it wasn't already) that the UN security council did not think > the use of force at that time was warranted - inspections were > still going on etc. > Yep. > The UK, Spain and the US had prepared another resolution > that effectively said only that the "final opportunity" granted > Iraq under 1441 was up. But they never tabled the resolution > to be voted on because it was clear that it would not have > gotten up and in failing to get up the PR battle would be > lost. > > So Bush and the coalition of the willing invaded before > the security council had deemed Iraq's final opportunity > over. That was clear cut illegal. And as it turned out > Iraq didn't have the weapons. > > The tradgedy is that the concerns over weapons were > not unreasonable and the criticisms made of the UN > were not unreasonable - there can be no peace under > the United Nations if the United Nations Security Council > would not enforce it - but it was within the range of > Bush's possible diplomatic moves to make the UN > security council live up to its mandate - he either just > didn't see the move (to challenge Chirac to produce a > standard or he would deem the UN Charter revoked) > - or he didn't want to see it - he wanted to invade Iraq > whether it had weapons or not. > Using this would have made us look very foolish after all the times we have backed down regarding Israel. - samantha From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Aug 27 07:54:01 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:54:01 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Most Dangerous Idea" (that is us) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04082617035288c91d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Fukuyama calling us a "greatest threat" is definitely a positive thing: our enemies are acknowledging that we are strong and may well become stronger than them in the long run. Lets prove Fukuyama is right. G. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Emlyn Sent: viernes, 27 de agosto de 2004 2:03 To: natashavita at earthlink.net; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] "The Most Dangerous Idea" (that is us) On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 15:15:02 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Friends, > > I just read this on the ExtroBritannia list and wanted to forward it to you > all: > > "'What ideas, if embraced, would pose the greatest threat to the > welfare of humanity?' That question was posed to eight prominent > policy intellectuals by the editors of Foreign Policy in its > September/October issue (not yet available online). One of the eight > savants consulted was Francis Fukuyama, professor of international > political economy at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International > Studies, author of Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the > Biotechnology Revolution, and a member of the President's Council on > Bioethics. His choice for the world's most dangerous idea? > Transhumanism." > > Transhumanism: The Most Dangerous Idea? > Ronald Bailey > http://www.reason.com/rb/rb082504.shtml > woohoo! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 12/07/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.719 / Virus Database: 475 - Release Date: 12/07/2004 From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Aug 27 09:02:50 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:02:50 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY><1093218003.1041.35.camel@Renfield><5313AD83-F59A-11D8-B115-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com><1093361549.1036.42.camel@Renfield><03e801c48a30$a8c91430$362c2dcb@homepc><1093391024.1036.85.camel@Renfield><00da01c48b04$f2c9ad90$362c2dcb@homepc> <948b11e040827000447544006@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <017b01c48c14$a1911150$362c2dcb@homepc> Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > How would a more capable President have handled the > > > situation? > > > > He'd have threatened to revoke the Charter and withdraw > > the US from the UN in the media if Chirac of France did not > > come up with a general standard for determining when the UN > > Security Council should go to war. The security council has to > > be willing to go to war sometimes or there can be no peace. At > > a critical point Chirac of France was saying that France would > > "never, never" go to war. > > > > Nonsense! Hypocrisy! One nation's head must come up with when to > go to war and if he doesn't we simply withdraw altogether? Yes (to answer your question). But not just any one nation's head of state - it had to be Chirac of France in particular that was challenged to come up with a standard because Chirac of France in particular was in the world media and heading the country most likely to veto the formulation of an effective resolution BECAUSE in no small part Chirac (like Bush) had his own domestic constituency to deal with - many of whom wanted war no more than you did. It is VERY reasonable to want to avoid war if possible - but sometimes it isn't possible (for the simple reason that our choices don't remove the choices of others to see us as their prey) and so some capacity for it must be maintained - for a leader to do less is to be irresponsible in the face of history, and not just human history, but all of natural history. Nature does not favour peace. Evolution has no preference for it. Peace is precious precisely because it is must be painstakingly won against enormous logistical difficulties and odds. The US President (whoever happened to be in the role) had and has a first duty to his own citizens and to their safety. That is not spin. September 11 showed the world a new type of sophisticated organised terrorist. It would have been irresponsible of Bush (or any President) not to consider what such terrorists might do should they get hold of weapons of mass destruction. The whole purpose of the UN Charter is to maintain international peace and security. Take a look at article 1. Google the United Nations. Having a permanent security council member that would not go to war under ANY circumstances (which was what Chirac was at least pretending his position to be) is utterly incompatible with the founding purpose of the UN. Had Bush called Chirac on this - Chirac would have had to step back from his rhetoric which was almost certainly not his final position but rather diplomatic positioning designed to counter balance Bush's pretended or real statements implying eagerness for war with Saddam (a valid brinksmanship tactic). Bush could not make the UN non-farcical if Chirac or others wanted it to be farcical - but he could refuse to participate in the farce, if Chirac did not come up with a standard. And that would have been an option that 'the world' could have respected as honorable. No agreement is binding when the bad faith of one of the parties is absolutely manifest. Thats why Bush should have challenge Chirac in front of the media. People in all legal jurisdictions get that basic principle. It's almost pre-law and straight logic. > Isn't this > ignoring the 60-odd very strong resolutions against the behavior of > Israel whom we support nearly without reservation and never call for a > war against? There was no good evidence for war worthy breaking of > UN weapsons resolution in Iraq. So France and other countries quite > rightly held back. We went ahead anyway and made fools of ourselves > to say the least. No. I think you misunderstand the UN Charter in a way that it is most commonly misunderstood. You seem to think that it is a more comprehensive tool that it is, or that it realistically could be yet. That's a pity. I am pretty sure that no UN resolutions were made against Israel because the US veto'd them from being made. Veto'ing a resolution from being made is different (and valid) from disregarding it when it has been made (as was the case with 1441 by the US and the UK). The UN security council is a very blunt instrument. It is incapable of delivering the sort of fine grained justice that many westerners may think their morality requires. It had to be minimalistic and to not get too involved in domestic matters to be able to be agreed to at all within its historical period by the war powers. Whenever one or more of the big 5 objected to a course - say the US did not want to see a resolution passed against Israel then it would stop a resolution being MADE. That is a different matter to having one made and then breaking it. In a way, the Bush administration showed almost world historical levels of good faith (perhaps because of pressure/influence from Powel or Blair or perhaps because Bush wanted to do what he saw as the right thing - I don't know) in going to the UN security council about Iraq. And in placing the matter of Iraq in the hands of the security council. That was almost the first time that a power gave the UN a real chance to do its job. It was almost the UNs first chance. For the first time Chi