[extropy-chat] Re: John Wright Finds God

[Dirk Bruere]

john-c-wright at sff.net wrote:

>Dirk Bruere writes: 
>
>  
>
>>I don't think it un-multicultural, but a position of ignorance of  the 
>>historical Jesus, of mysticism and all the religions that have a Messiah 
>>    
>>
>>from Isis and Horus to Baldur of my religion (Asatru). 
>
>Sir, with all due respect, it is bad form to assume a stranger is ignorant of 
>something when it is possible that he is familiar with it, but might come to a 
>differing conclusion about it. You put me in the awkward position of having to 
>
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The point is that you learned this as an 'outsider', so to speak I came 
from the other direction in a peculiar manner. I was brought up on the 
GrecoRoman myths rather than biblical stories. I was a fairly militant 
atheist of the type one sees here until I was in my early 30s. Took some 
acid, had a chat with God and came by a circuitous route to Asatru.

>Let me digress to express my respect and camaraderie! I hope you are an honest, 
>old-fashioned pagan, who takes his gods seriously, and not a modern dilettante. 
>It is good to know that there are men willing to die, weapon in hand, eager for 
>no softer fate than to be carried by the Choosers of the Slain to the Valhall, 
>there to await the doom of worlds. You will fall at the side of Alfadur and 
>Asathor, fighting to the last against the rude and monstrous giants of frost 
>and fire, the wolf of chaos, the deadly serpent who has all the middle world in 
>his coils. This is a fight all omens say is hopeless, and which will extinguish 
>God and Man alike, and all our works. Unlike a Christian, no one can accuse you 
>of adopting a belief as a bribe: no paradise is promised to you. I salute you 
>as a brother. 
>
>  
>
There are many interpretations of Ragnarok, ranging from the personal to 
the cosmic. In the lore there are survivors into the next cycle. A man 
and a woman survive in Midgard, Baldur returns from Hel (along, 
presumably with the rest of the dead) and some of the other Aesir and 
Vanir also survive. The Einheriar of Valhalla and those of Niflhel are 
burned up. Many see their death as a dissolution from which the next 
cycle gains its existence and tenor. Little or nothing is mentioned of 
those who reside in some of the other halls of the Gods, eg Freya's hall 
Sessrumnir, but one might assume that they too carry on.

However, I don't think you will find many of us who believe the literal 
truth of the lore. We see it as metaphor and have no problem with that.

>You may not think of us as brethren, but, compared to what I used to believe, 
>compared to the icy world-view that says we come from nothing and return to 
>nothing, children of a blind cosmos-sized machine, compared to that, the 
>differences between the various flavors of faith should be measured in 
>angstroms. 
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That is indeed a bleak and pointless view of life. I would assume that 
at the very least we have a 4D worldline.

>If you imagine I am being sarcastic or ironic, put such imagination aside. I 
>believe the absurd story that the Omnipotent compressed Himself into the son of 
>a Jewish cabinet-maker and died the vile death reserved for a criminal, and 
>that this somehow saves me from death and damnation. Compared to that, the tale 
>of the God of the Slain crucifying himself on the world-ash with the great 
>spear with all the oaths of heaven carved into its shaft, in order that he 
>might seize the runes that grant him sovereign power, seems both 
>straightforward and sane. A man who believes in the Virgin birth is not going 
>to mock someone who believes Heimdall had nine mothers. End of digression. 
>
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The difference is that while we argue over whether Odin was an 
historical shamanic figure or not, we have never burned people at the 
stake for claiming it was all metaphor and not historical reality. By 
its fruits you will know it.

>>Jesus is but a 
>>latecomer in the line of Messiahs, and all the trappings from the virgin 
>>birth, the rising from the dead, the travels to the underworld etc etc 
>>have a long pedigree stretching back into pre-history. The Jews 
>>invented/discovered nothing with respect to the Messiah, but did inherit 
>>a vast amount from their neighbours and predecessors.
>>    
>>
>
>There are three explanations Christian offer to explain the similarity to 
>earlier myths, ranging from the ridiculous to the sublime. 
>
>First, some say devils, anticipating the Passion, impersonated it beforehand in 
>other countries as a trick to erode the faithfulness of the faithful. One can 
>imagine Spanish conquerors horrified to see the practices of the Aztecs 
>impersonating the forms and ideas of the communion and the host. But this 
>theory, true or not, sounds rather self-serving. 
>
>Second, some say the shattering supernatural effect of the entry of God to the 
>world might have cast echoes or reflections back through time, and the minds of 
>men naturally picked up on this. A divine mind might be able to understand how 
>  
>
Ragnarok also perhaps.

>effect can precede cause, but I cannot. Third, some say that man naturally 
>  
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Cramer's Transactional Interpretation anyone? :-)
OTOH, maybe the price of consistency is that the past is not fixed.

>gropes toward the light, and is inspired by his creator to find those tales 
>which approach the truth; it also may be that providence arranged that the 
>Incarnation would not occur on a world unprepared for the idea, therefore the 
>idea had to be introduced before the Incarnation. 
>
>These matters are too subtle for me. I make no claim that Christianity is 
>original, merely that it is true. Were it as original as, say Scientology, I 
>would suspect it to be largely a human invention. 
>
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But *what* of Xianity is true? Forbidding women to uncover their head in 
church? The abomination of divorce (and JC was explicitly against that 
in an unequivocal manner if one believes the truth of the NT)?

>As far as my analogy goes (and it is only an analogy, mind) if I said that 
>Euclid’s ELEMENTS expressed the most perfect understanding of geometry among 
>all the ancient civilizations, it does not betray an ignorance on my part that 
>I do not mention Pythagoras who came before him. The Chinese and the Hindu also 
>understood the principles of geometry, and the fragments of text exist that 
>show the Egyptians attempted to calculate pi. But Euclid was more clear and 
>systematic than those who came before him.  
>
>Mr. Bruere says in another letter:
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>>>If you are asking me the theoretical question, “would the Virgin Mary 
>>>appear to a man in the form of Parvati if he were a Hindu, rather >>than a 
>>>      
>>>
>man raised in Christendom?” That question no mortal can answer. 
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>>Actually, that can be answered, and the answer is 'yes'.
>>The archetypes are the same, but the names change.
>>The Virgin Mary, as is commonly described, is Isis/Astarte.
>>    
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>
>With all due respect, this is guesswork on your part. Perhaps what I saw were 
>  
>
In your case, perhaps.
But in almost all other cases where the BVM has appeared she has 
appeared as Isis/Astarte, simply because her iconography, titles etc 
were transferred to her directly and undiluted from the Goddess 
archetype of the Middle East.

>the gods in masquerade, dressed up as familiar figures to please me.  But 
>unless you, a mortal man, can peer behind the stage of life and see the 
>supernatural machinery, watch the gods in their dressing rooms putting on their 
>masks, then you cannot say for sure anything other than the fact that some men 
>see some resemblances between tales told of Isis and Mary. Maybe one is real 
>and the other is not. Maybe one is a Saint and the other an angel. 
>
>If the gods are dressing up as Christians for my sake, honestly, I wish they 
>would stop. Had they wished to impress me with characters I found impressive, 
>the ghost of Cato or Scipio would have been far more to my tastes at the time. 
>
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The Gods dress so that we may understand them and accomplish their purpose.

>>>I am not in a position to pass judgment on the truth or falsehood of the
>>>assertion. The unambiguous mainstream belief of the Christian tradition agrees
>>>with the proposition that Christ is the exclusive door to salvation. 
>>>      
>>>
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>>Again, you seem to be lacking a great deal of theological knowledge.
>>    
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>
>Again, with the ignorance crack, my dear sir? I have read what I have read, and 
>I know what I know. It may be small learning, but it is all I have.  
>  
>
Perhaps it is time to re-read with new eyes.

>I am basing my understanding of “mainstream” Christian theology on my reading 
>of St. Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther. With all possible respect to the 
>Mormons, I am placing their beliefs outside what I call “the mainstream” for 
>the purposes of his discussion. I mean no belittling of their faith by that. 
>
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I suggest you start looking less at the 'rationalists' and more at 
people like St John of the Cross, or Theresa of Avila.

>I am willing to hear you support the proposition that Christians do not take as 
>their creed the idea that Christ is necessary for salvation, if you can give 
>it. Otherwise, I am not sure in what respect my theology errs? 
>
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I did not claim that.
What I am suggesting is that the 'bridge' embodied for Xians in the 
mythology of JC exists by other names, or even when nameless.

>>Can we call upon him even if we do not know he 
>>existed/exists? 
>>    
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>
>It worked in my case. You can shout out the window of a burning building for a 
>fireman even if you don’t know for sure the fireman is there. As long as the 
>fireman knows for sure you are there, why would he not raise his ladder and 
>save you? 
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>>In fact, *what* is Jesus?
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>My savior and my Lord. I’d be happy to introduce Him to you. Indeed, we are 
>commanded to do so. Knock, and the door will open. Ask, and you will be 
>answered.  
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I did knock, and have been answered, but not by anything dressed as an Xian.
To be honest, I rather desise the Xian legacy and I feel that JC would 
too if he were alive today (a joke, of sorts).
His warning and test were clear - by its fruits you will know it.


-- 
Dirk

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