From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb  1 01:04:35 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:04:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] VP Summit - Press Release - Comments Please!
In-Reply-To: <20040131165807.60745.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040201010435.63396.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think that depends on the intended goals of the
> organizers. Is this a
> summit to discuss and agree on strategy and get
> press coverage, or is
> it a come together to sing kumbaya with the
> bioluddites?

Remember that some (many) of the press are prone to
misinterpretation of terms they do not already know,
in ways that favor the luddites.  Not that many
mainstream journalists are intimately familiar with
the word "extropy", for example.



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 02:38:38 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 18:38:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] LOTR: Nitpickers Guide
Message-ID: <20040201023838.21818.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>

There is some excellent discussion over the past day or two on /. about
the Nitpickers Guide to LOTR, a site which compares all the changes
from the books to the movies. One thing that someone posted that is
rather hilarious is the following:

12 Things Not To Say Watching ROTK in the theatre:

1. Stand up halfway through the movie and yell loudly, "Wait...where
the hell is Harry Potter?"
2. Block the entrance to the theater while screaming, "YOU.....
SHALL....NOT..... PASS!" - After the movie, say "Lucas could have done
it better."
3. Play a drinking game where you have to take a sip every time someone
says, "the Ring."
4. Point and laugh whenever someone dies.
5. Ask everyone around you if they think Gandalf went to Hogwarts.
6. Finish off every one of Elrond's lines with "Mis..ter Ander-sonnn."
7. When Aragorn is crowned king, stand up and at the top of your lungs
sing, "And I did it.... MY way...!"
8. Talk like Gollum all through the movie. At the end, bite off
someone's finger and fall down the stairs.
9. Dress up as old ladies and reenact "The Battle of Helms Deep," Monty
Python style.
10. When Denethor lights the fire, shout "Barbecue!"
11. In TTT when the Ents decide to march to war, stand up and shout,
"RUN FOREST, RUN!"
12. Every time someone kills an Orc, yell: "That's what I'm Tolkien
about!" See how long it takes before you get kicked out of the theatre.
13. During a wide shot of a battle, inquire, "Where's Waldo?"
14. Talk loudly about how you heard that there is a single frame of a
nude Elf hidden somewhere in the movie.
15. Start an Orc sing-a-long.
16. Come to the premiere dressed as Frankenfurter and wander around
looking terribly confused.
17 When they go in the paths of the dead, wait for a tense moment and
shout, "I see dead people!"
18. Imitate what you think a conversation between Gollum, Dobby and
Yoda would be like.
19. Release a jar of daddy-long-legs into the theater during the Shelob
scene.
20. Wonder out loud if Aragorn is going to run for governor of
California.
21. When Shelob comes on, exclaim, "Man!Charlotte's really let herself
go!"


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/


From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb  1 03:39:11 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:39:11 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] extropy and other forces for good
In-Reply-To: <015601c3e836$131f4400$93994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <32F8FBB4-5468-11D8-916A-000A27960BC6@HarveyNewstrom.com>


On Saturday, January 31, 2004, at 03:08 pm, Damien Broderick wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
>
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2004 1:42 PM
>
>>> Two Harvard scholars have found that what really stimulates
>>> economic growth is whether you believe in an afterlife -
>>> especially hell.
>
>> I'll bet that the same data can demonstrate that you get even better
>> economic growth if you believe in witchcraft...
>
> I rather doubt it, but it might correlate with belief in astrology
> (considering the number of Asian business people who swear by it).

I've found that the daily Dilbert cartoon predicts business better than 
the astrology column.

--
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec 
Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS Certified GIAC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com>


--
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec 
Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS Certified GIAC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com>

--
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec 
Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS Certified GIAC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 



From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Sun Feb  1 08:56:38 2004
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 09:56:38 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] EDU: Georgia and Evolution
In-Reply-To: <20040131053132.98436.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040131053132.98436.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <401CBF46.7020109@mail.tele.dk>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

> The political fear is the idea
> that the indians ancestors may have stolen the new world from
> caucasians (so it was our historical right to take it back), thus
> negating their historical claims.

Damn it! I am sitting here in the grimm north. It's snowing and rainging 
outside.

I want Africa back, and I want it now!


regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sun Feb  1 09:45:54 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2004 01:45:54 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Humor: Terrorislam
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401300923531.791-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000501c3e8a8$2fa81440$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Well, another year another Hajj eh? In the wake of this year's great
pilgrimage to Mecca, the US is joining in the three-day Eid al-Adha
festivities by cancelling six incoming international flights - citing
chemical, biological, and radiological celebratory concerns.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2065-2004Jan31.html

Saudi Arabia's top cleric called on Muslims around the world Saturday to
forsake terrorism, saying those who claim to be holy warriors were an
affront to the faith.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040131_1099.html

Later that evening, when asked by a transhumanist pilgrim if Osama Bin Laden
would fall into that category - since no one seemed to actually recall him
referring to himself as a holy warrior (jihaddi), Sheik Abdul Aziz al-Sheik
winked and replied: "only the Prophet may say, peace be unto him."

During the sermon the Sheik apparently muddled up a number of statements
handed to him on a yellow slip of paper beforehand when he attempted to
rephrase the Administration's suggestions as questions:

"Is it holy war to shed Muslim blood? Is it holy war to shed the blood of
non-Muslims given sanctuary in Muslim lands? Is it holy war to destroy the
possession of Muslims?"

A number of hands went up in response but then dropped quickly when their
hosts realized the Shiek was in fact speaking rhetorically.

The United States has pushed the Riyadh government to crack down on Muslim
extremist groups and to censor its mosque sermons and school books to
eliminate phrases that encourage hostility toward Christians, Jews and other
non-Muslim faiths, (as well as atheists and transhumanists) , but Al-Sheik
sternly warned the throng against "changing the religion's basics" in school
curricula.

"The minds of youth in the Islamic nation need to be shielded with Islamic
sharia and good manners and deeds. The nation's future generations will only
be reformed by what reformed the past generations," he said.

Attending dignitaries from the west glanced around until one whispered: "Did
he just say he wants them all to jettison reform and go back to strict
fundamentalist Wahhabite doctrine?" (such as Quran Sura 5:9 "slay the
unbeliever wherever you find him")

Fortunately the OSS had already dispatched a contingent from its volunteer
Spy Kids division who used their rocket powered boots to fly over the
prostrate crowds while dropping gilt lettered leaflets bearing testimonials
from other-wise apostates such as Salman Rushdie, Taslima Nasrin, Anwar
Shaikh, Ali Sina, Mahmoud, Syed Mirza Ali, and Mohsen. Many of the leaflets
included eye-opening web addresses for those pilgrims who had had the good
fortune to bring along their BlackBerry PDAs.

http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/index.htm

anonymous




























http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm



From support at imminst.org  Sun Feb  1 11:50:47 2004
From: support at imminst.org (support at imminst.org)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 05:50:47 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst Update
Message-ID: <401ce8179eda4@imminst.org>

Immortality Institute ~ For Infinite Lifespans
***********************
Mission: Conquer the Blight of Involuntary Death
Members: 1211  
Full Members: 61


ImmInst Chat -  Nanotechnology and Life Extension 
***********************
Inventor, entrepreneur, and published author in the fields 
of nanomedicine, nanomanufacturing, and administration 
of nanotechnology, Chris Phoenix joins ImmInst to discuss 
Nanotechnology and Life Extension. 

Chat Time: Sunday Feb. 1st @ 8 PM Eastern
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=63&t=2889

Chat Archive: http://www.imminst.org/archive/chat.php


ImmInst Book Project - Final Cut-off
***********************
Final submission to the book project will be 
accepted until Feb 27th.  
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=142&t=2276&st=0&#entry25149


Extropy Summit - Vital Progress "VP"
***********************
In mid-Feb. 2004, Extropy Institute (ExI) hosts an online 
Summit to take a look at the "Beyond Therapy" Report 
produced by President Bush's Bioethics Council. 
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=99&t=3028


Support ImmInst 
***********************
http://imminst.org/become_imminst_fullmember





To be removed from all of our mailing lists, click here:
http://www.imminst.org/archive/mailinglists/mailinglists.php?p=mlist&rem=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


From scerir at libero.it  Sun Feb  1 12:35:58 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:35:58 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] extropy and other forces for good
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0401311001010.29220-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<014501c3e82e$c989d960$93994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <002601c3e8bf$f289f1b0$73901897@extropy>

> Two Harvard scholars have found that what really stimulates
> economic growth is whether you believe in an afterlife -
> especially hell.

The Vatican has two main sources of income, 
the Istituto per le Opere di Religione (IOR), and
the voluntary contributions known as 'Peter's pence'.
The IOR has attracted some controversy in recent years 
through the emergence of huge debts ... and allegations 
of corruption, etc. :-)
http://www.skolnicksreport.com/vaticanbank.html
http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/vatican2.htm
Hence I suppose that what really stimulates
economic growth is whether one believes ....
in a future, and in a memory.
s.



From naddy at mips.inka.de  Sun Feb  1 16:10:38 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:10:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: STING: I've got a live one!
References: <20040124172757.53392.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bvj8du$146o$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

News on Heise (German):
http://heise.de/newsticker/meldung/44230

In a sting operation against "Nigeria 419" spammers/scammers, the
Dutch police has arrested 52 suspects in Amsterdam.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb  1 16:35:24 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 08:35:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] EDU: Georgia and Evolution
In-Reply-To: <401CBF46.7020109@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <20040201163524.14042.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Max M <maxm at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > The political fear is the idea
> > that the indians ancestors may have stolen the new
> world from
> > caucasians (so it was our historical right to take
> it back), thus
> > negating their historical claims.
> 
> Damn it! I am sitting here in the grimm north. It's
> snowing and rainging 
> outside.
> 
> I want Africa back, and I want it now!

You missed the subtext: the land would come with
everything that's been placed on and in it.  There
isn't as much infrastructure in Africa as in North
America.

A really rich person could try to conquer one of the
mid-African dictatorships, then build up the nation
through education and industrialization funded from
the new dictator's own pocket...but it's much easier
to develop the things we want to develop in an already
industrialized country.


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb  1 17:57:00 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 09:57:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] I give thanks
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402010930380.2340-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


I know it isn't Thanksgiving.  But I still feel like
giving thanks.  I thank the fact that the world has
two functional robotic explorers on a distant planet.
I thank the fact that the dust from a body which
contains knowledge with respect to the formation of
our solar system is on its way back to Earth.  I
thank the fact that this month a spacecraft will
take off to direct a landing on one of the original
solar system entities.

I thank the fact that we have something like a
triple cocktail against HIV.  I thank the fact
that smallpox is effectively DOA and polio
may be close behind it.  I thank the fact
that we can identify something like the SARS
virus in less than a year.  I thank the fact
that the WHO recognizes that avian flu may
represent a significant risk to humans and
appears to be on top of it.  I thank the fact
that we now have the genomic sequence of the
plasmodium organism and malaria's days are
numbered.

I could go on but I will not.  I reflect on
that Klingon phrase "Today is a good day to die".
Perhaps that perspective is mistaken.  Today
may indeed be a good day to live!

Robert




From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  1 18:26:59 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:26:59 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] I give thanks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402010930380.2340-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000401c3e8f0$fbb9aab0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Robert J. Bradbury
> Subject: [extropy-chat] I give thanks
>  
> I know it isn't Thanksgiving.  But I still feel like
> giving thanks.  I thank the fact that the world has
> two functional robotic explorers on a distant planet...
> Robert

Well said Robert!  If we still had post of the month,
I would nominate this.  I share these sentiments often.

spike


  



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  1 18:41:07 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:41:07 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] idea for spam filitering
In-Reply-To: <000401c3e8f0$fbb9aab0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <000001c3e8f2$f482d350$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


We currently filter spam by keywords in the subject
line or in the text, but how about this idea: the
receiver would filter the message if it did not contain 
the receiver's email @ somewhere in the text.  

One could add to the filter list the names of their 
chat groups, so that these chat groups would need 
to include their own names in the subject line or 
text, as extropy.org does.  That way one could still 
get messages from friends and chat groups, but
probably not from strangers.  

Question computer jockeys: since this strategy would
require all messages to be unique to get thru, would
that not stop at least unsophisticated spammers?  Would
it sufficiently burden the sending computer to modify 
each sent message and send each out separately?  I can 
imagine a script that would insert the @ into each message, 
but it would have its computing cost, would it not?  Or
could the spammers still bust this technique using zombies 
to generate the unique messages?  Has this already
been done?

spike
 



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  1 21:02:12 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 13:02:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PSYCH: Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy
Message-ID: <20040201210212.1202.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.rebt.org/about/whatisrebt.asp

I was in a conversation today with another Free Stater who is a pshrink
in Chicago and asked her what she thought would be a good way to go
about increasing the number of individuals in society capable of making
decisions about their rational long term self interest in a way that
would make our society more stably libertarian. She replied, "REBT." On
its face it seems like a good approach. Is anybody here familiar with
this and can you share your opinions/experiences? It also seems like a
good approach for extropes to promote to reduce the luddism in society
as well.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/


From reason at longevitymeme.org  Sun Feb  1 22:48:13 2004
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2004 14:48:13 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] the Methuselah Foundation site is now live
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNAEJEEDAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>

The Methuselah Foundation website is live, and very nice it is too - a lot
of good food for thought in regard to priorities and healthy life extension:

http://www.methuselahfoundation.org/

The donors page in particular contains comments from donors on their reasons
for supporting the prize:

http://www.methuselahfoundation.org/MMPDonors.asp

We'll be redesigning the Methuselah Mouse prize site to look this nice at
some point in the near future. While I'm on the subject, the prize is
currently subject to a $2000 matching challenge grant from two generous
donors - so any donations up to that amount will be matched...

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme



From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Tue Feb  3 02:30:21 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:30:21 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] switching gene expressions old article from 2000
Message-ID: <007401c3e9fd$aef20480$ccee17cb@renegade>

First Genetic Toggle Switch Engineered At Boston University
science daily
20 Jan 2000
On/Off switch holds promise for biotechnology, biocomputing, and gene therapy 

(Boston, Mass.) - The first-ever "genetic toggle switch," designed to control the activity of genes, was recently engineered by scientists at Boston University's Center for BioDynamics (CBD) and Department of Biomedical Engineering. Working with the bacteria Escherichia coli, the researchers were able to successfully switch the expression of genes between stable on and off states by applying a brief chemical or temperature stimulus. The work is reported in the January 20 issue of Nature. 

"Regulatory circuits that are stable in both the on and off positions exist naturally in some very specialized genetic systems," says James J. Collins, director of CBD and co-author, "but this is the first time anyone has been able to create a synthetic bistable on/off switch to control the expression of a gene - a switch that can be generalized to a variety of genes in many different organisms, including human cells." 

The toggle also represents the core technology for additional genetic control devices. "Minor modifications to the toggle can be made to produce a genetic sensor with an adjustable threshold - a system in which genes are activated or repressed when a specific threshold is reached," notes Timothy S. Gardner, a Ph.D. candidate in biomedical engineering and lead author of the study. "This type of sensor would be useful in controlling diabetes, for example, by automatically activating the synthesis of insulin when blood glucose reaches a particular level." Such a system also has potential applications in the detection of biological warfare agents - turning the body's own cells into sensors that alert the individual to the presence of dangerous substances, and even triggering the production of an antidote. 

Moreover, the toggle switch itself can function as an artificial cellular memory unit, the basis of cell-based computing. "Since Richard Feynman's visionary suggestion, in 1959, of engineering submicroscopic devices, the concept of nanoscale robotics has sparked researchers' imaginations," says Gardner. "In recent years, this possibility has frequently been identified with microelectromechanical devices. We suggest that nanoscale robotics may take on a 'wetter' form, namely, a living cell. Ultimately, we envision the combination of genetic toggles, genetic sensors, sequential expression networks, and other devices into a 'Genetic Applet' - a self-contained and fully programmable genetic network for the control of cell function." 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


      Week of 28 January 2000 
     Vol. III, No. 21 
     
 


Feature Article


BU scientists design on-off switch for genes
By Hope Green

A team of scientists at Boston University's Center for BioDynamics (CBD) and ENG's department of biomedical engineering have created the world's first "genetic toggle switch," a mechanism designed to control gene activity. 

Timothy Gardner (ENG'00), a doctoral candidate in biomedical engineering and lead author of the study, demonstrated the procedure in a BU laboratory using genetic material from a common bacterium, Escherichia coli. With its ability to regulate the timing of gene expression -- the process in which genes manufacture proteins and RNA -- the technology has potential applications for treating a variety of diseases. The switch ultimately could function as an artificial cellular memory unit, turning living cells into microscopic computers.

"This is the first time anyone has been able to create a synthetic bistable on/off switch to control the expression of a gene -- a switch that can be generalized to a variety of genes in many different organisms, including humans," says James Collins, University Professor, ENG professor of biomedical engineering, and codirector of CBD. Collins is a coauthor of the study, which was reported in the January 20 issue of Nature. 

Current gene-therapy technologies involve a therapeutic gene placed in a cell in a nonexpressive, or off, state. To flip the gene on and keep it on, a drug must be administered in a constant flow. "It would be as if you had to keep pressing your finger on a light switch in order to keep the light on," Collins explains. The problem with such therapies is that a continuous stream of drugs can have side effects for the patient. "What we did with our system is essentially construct the equivalent of the type of light switch we have in our offices," he says. "With just a brief delivery of a drug, you can flip the gene on. Likewise, you can deliver another chemical burst to switch it off."

Gardner built the toggle switch by stacking two repressor and two promoter genes from the bacterium in a unique setup that allowed only one of the promoter genes to be active at a given moment. He inserted a jellyfish gene that glowed fluorescent green to signal when the switch was turned on by the application of a synthetic chemical. "We have these two promoter genes linked together, each trying to shut the other off," Collins explains. "The system is bistable: we set it up so that one gene always wins." Techniques from the toggle experiment could become the foundation of more complex genetic-control devices. These include a genetic sensor that could, in a diabetes patient, enable a cell to detect when blood glucose reaches a critical threshold and automatically activate the production of insulin. For now, however, the team is developing a sensor that could respond to high blood glucose by changing a patch of skin a different color, warning the patient to take an insulin shot.


Such a system also has potential applications in the detection of biological warfare agents, turning the cells into sensors that alert the individual to the presence of dangerous substances, and even triggering the production of an antidote. 

Ultimately, Gardner and Collins envision the combination of genetic toggles, genetic sensors, and other devices into a "genetic applet," a genetic network implanted in a patient that could be programmed to control cell function.

Gardner, who received his bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering from Princeton, has been collaborating on the research project for 14 months with Collins and Charles Cantor, ENG professor of biomedical engineering and director of BU's Center for Advanced Biotechnology. 

After completing his Ph.D. requirements this spring, Gardner hopes to work in a postdoctoral position on the West Coast. In any case, he plans to maintain his connection with BU. The research team is applying for patents on the toggle-switch technology, and is mulling the prospect of launching a company.

"Tim is going to be a real academic superstar," Collins predicts. "My group was fortunate to get him." 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://math.bu.edu/cbd/abl_tmp/pdfs/JHastyFIsaacsMDolnikDMcMillenJJCollins_DesignergenenetworksTowardsfundamentalcellularcontrol_Chaos_11_207220.pdf

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From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Tue Feb  3 02:31:38 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:31:38 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] generic curation rates infosite?
Message-ID: <007801c3e9fd$daf20e40$ccee17cb@renegade>

A personal anecdote... when going to have my check-up at hospital I showed the article below to the registrar I was seeing (a person of a very conservative bent in tech) and asked what he thought. He said it meant nothing because "mice are very easy to cure". (Of course other species have very different reactions to each other and humans in experiments.) His attitude (as usual) was that nothing was changing. I would say, however, that over 2/3rds of hospital doctors I have met are aware of change and want to accelerate it. (One only has to think of patients with MS who are approaching dying.)

Does anyone know of a website or think tank that measures cures of major human diseases and illnesses over the last century or more generally? (I have read, for example, that cancer cures at five years after onset of cancer have reached over 50% compared to 33% in the 1970s, in the west. Wired magazine has predicted major cancer "curation" within ten years. My own prediction is 6 years for major advances, 2015 for youthful appearance.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TARGET: ROGUE IMMUNE CELLS

Technology Review Sept 2003


DNA-derived vaccine advances on MS


Drugs for autoimmune diseases like multiple sclerosis, type 1 diabetes, and rheumatoid arthritis provide relief from symptoms but don't address causes. Researchers now hope to change that with an emerging class of vaccines made from DNA that shut down the immune cells that go awry in these diseases. Early results have been so promising that human trials for the first treatment-a multiple sclerosis therapy that made paralyzed mice walk again-will begin early next year.


In MS patients, rogue immune cells attack the nerve covering called the myelin sheath, leading to numbness, weakness, cognitive problems, and eventually paralysis. There's no existing cure; a leading drug, called beta-interferon, regulates the immune system to reduce the severity of attacks but can carry severe side effects. "Treatments today for these types of autoimmune diseases are basically blunt instruments," says John Walker, CEO of Bayhill Therapeutics, the Palo Alto, CA, startup developing these DNA vaccines. "We're interested in taking much more of a rifle-shot approach."


Two engineered DNA molecules make up the vaccine; both are taken up by specialized "first responder" immune cells, which are thus transformed into MS-fighting machines. One DNA molecule encodes a protein found in the myelin sheath; the first-responders make this protein, which acts as bait for the rogue immune cells. Once this trap is sprung, the second DNA molecule goes to work. It encodes a protein that switches the rogue cells from a destructive mode to a protective mode.


Lawrence Steinman, the Stanford University Medical Center immunologist and neurologist who developed the approach and cofounded Bayhill, says the strategy has dramatically reduced the severity of the disease in mice-and even made paralyzed mice walk again. "There isn't a mouse we haven't cured," Steinman says. "Now the issue is, can we translate this into man?"


With 350,000 people suffering from MS in the United States alone, that is a critical question. To begin answering it, the company has raised $14.5 million in its first round of financing and plans to begin human trials of the MS vaccine in early 2004. If all goes well, a vaccine could reach patients in about seven years.


Once the technology is proved in humans, Bayhill plans to develop treatments for other autoimmune diseases. Indeed, the same basic approach has met with success in mouse models of rheumatoid arthritis and type 1 diabetes. New studies are testing whether it may even be possible to reverse existing joint damage. Vijay Kuchroo, a neurologist at Harvard Medical School, believes DNA vaccination "has broad applications" for autoimmune diseases. "I think it has a great future," he says. While that remains to be seen, the root causes of autoimmune diseases are in researchers' rifle sights. -Erika Jonietz

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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Feb  2 17:53:18 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:53:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Poxy old computers (was RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Spirit Problems)
In-Reply-To: <017a01c3e6e4$e595af30$cc01a8c0@DELLBERT>
Message-ID: <20040202175318.22343.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Harvey Newstrom <mail at HarveyNewstrom.com> wrote:
> Adrian Tymes asks,
> > Who's going to QA the beast?  Who's going to
> certify
> > its utility for certain services it's sold to
> perform?
> 
> Putting on cape...  Ta da!  It's
> Security-Auditor-Man!
> 
> There are security methodologies for developing
> secure and safe code.  There
> are design review procedures.  There are development
> procedures.  There are
> beta-testing procedures.  Most of today's code is
> buggy because people are
> too busy/lazy/cheap to spend the time/effort/money
> to make stuff work.

Oh, most certainly, for code that humans write.  I was
talking about code that writes itself.  Any procedures
you put into the auto-developer, can in theory be
overwritten, no?  And there ain't necessarily any
human-readable design documentation.

Now, granted, you can have an auto-QA module that
takes the same constraints the auto-developer was
given and tries to break the code, except the auto-QA
module doesn't get to overwrite itself - including the
"nevers" such as strcpy instead of strncpy (or, at
least, strcpy into a buffer that could be smaller than
necessary).


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Feb  2 17:58:14 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 09:58:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Poxy old computers (was RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Spirit Prob
	lems)
In-Reply-To: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869B0@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <20040202175814.3279.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Emlyn O'regan <oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au>
wrote:
> > Which runs counter to commercial software
> development.
> > Who's going to QA the beast?  Who's going to
> certify
> > its utility for certain services it's sold to
> perform?
> 
> Read those licenses on your existing shrink wrapped
> software one more
> time... no one is foolish enough, even today, to
> warrant that any software
> sold will *actually work as intended*. Sometimes
> they even deny that there
> is an intention behind the software.

You are correct for most commercial applications.
There are some which are so warranted, though: mainly
things were peoples' lives have a significant chance
of being endangered in case of error, such as vehicle
autopilots, life support systems as seen in hospitals,
power plants, et cetera.

Then again, perhaps there's a reason that those tend
to be the types of software most resistant to feature
creep.


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb  2 19:30:55 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:30:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] LONGEVITY: antioxidant progress
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402021125150.32024-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


It would appear that antioxidants better than Vitamin E
and Vitamin C may be on the drawing board.

See:
New Antioxidants Are 100 Times More Effective Than Vitamin E
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040202072148.htm

The keyword would appear to be "pyridinols" -- which incorporate
nitrogen into the structure of more common antioxidants.

Robert




From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Mon Feb  2 22:50:35 2004
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 09:20:35 +1030
Subject: Poxy old computers (was RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Spirit Prob
	lems)
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869BD@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

Adrian wrote:
> including the
> "nevers" such as strcpy instead of strncpy (or, at
> least, strcpy into a buffer that could be smaller than
> necessary).

You can fix a lot of these kinds of problems, also, by only writing in C
when there is absolutely no alternative. Which is really rather seldom.

Emlyn
;-)



From thespike at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 00:06:12 2004
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 18:06:12 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
Message-ID: <00ec01c3e9e9$8c5d91a0$d3994a43@texas.net>

I always believe what I read in the paper, such as:

< A tomcat nicknamed Frosty found frozen to the ground in minus 29 degrees
was saved by a Minnesota animal shelter. Staff wrapped four- year-old Frosty
in hot towels to thaw him out over three days. >




From extropy at unreasonable.com  Tue Feb  3 00:18:21 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 19:18:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Poxy old computers
In-Reply-To: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869BD@adlexsv02.protech
	.com.au>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040202184158.036c0e98@mail.comcast.net>

At 09:20 AM 2/3/2004 +1030, Emlyn O'regan wrote:

>You can fix a lot of these kinds of problems, also, by only writing in C
>when there is absolutely no alternative. Which is really rather seldom.

Among the environments I write software for are PalmOS computers. My TRGpro 
clone of a Palm III has 2.5KB for system globals, a 4KB application stack, 
and 36KB available for application globals, dynamic applications, and 
static variables. And a fairly low memory total for the entire machine's 
applications and data.

The applications I've written for Palm would be far too large and too slow 
in anything other than C. Even in C, I've had to be pretty clever in data 
compression, to balance minimal space against access time. (It's been a fun 
exercise, using muscles I don't normally need.)

There may always be circumstances where it is essential to work close to 
the machine. Today it might be a PDA or cell phone -- 10^8 phones running 
J2ME is a pretty good market size. Tomorrow it might be processors inside 
nano-robots analyzing whether the cell they reside in has turned cancerous.

There are still uses for 4- or 8-bit processors, vacuum tubes, anvils, 
leeches, and buggy whips. And sometimes they're the best tool for the problem.


-- David Lubkin.
  




From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Tue Feb  3 00:26:59 2004
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 10:56:59 +1030
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Poxy old computers
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869C5@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Lubkin [mailto:extropy at unreasonable.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 3 February 2004 9:48 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Poxy old computers
> 
> 
> At 09:20 AM 2/3/2004 +1030, Emlyn O'regan wrote:
> 
> >You can fix a lot of these kinds of problems, also, by only 
> writing in C
> >when there is absolutely no alternative. Which is really 
> rather seldom.
> 
> Among the environments I write software for are PalmOS 
> computers. My TRGpro 
> clone of a Palm III has 2.5KB for system globals, a 4KB 
> application stack, 
> and 36KB available for application globals, dynamic applications, and 
> static variables. And a fairly low memory total for the 
> entire machine's 
> applications and data.
> 
> The applications I've written for Palm would be far too large 
> and too slow 
> in anything other than C. Even in C, I've had to be pretty 
> clever in data 
> compression, to balance minimal space against access time. 
> (It's been a fun 
> exercise, using muscles I don't normally need.)

"don't normally need" is the key phrase here. The rest of the Palm
developers out there, please raise your hands. Come on, someone, anyone? ...
:-) And that's the right environment for C... places where there is no other
alternative. Which are few.

> 
> There may always be circumstances where it is essential to 
> work close to 
> the machine. Today it might be a PDA or cell phone -- 10^8 
> phones running 
> J2ME is a pretty good market size. 

Hmm, I think I'd use Java there, no?

> Tomorrow it might be 
> processors inside 
> nano-robots analyzing whether the cell they reside in has 
> turned cancerous.

If you're hand coding nano-robots in C, we've got bigger issues. Not
slighting your coding skills, it's a scoping thing.

> 
> There are still uses for 4- or 8-bit processors, vacuum 
> tubes, anvils, 
> leeches, and buggy whips. And sometimes they're the best tool 
> for the problem.
> 

You know far too much about my sex life for comfort, now I'm creeped out...

Emlyn   




From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Tue Feb  3 01:21:54 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 20:21:54 -0500
Subject: Poxy old computers (was RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Spirit Prob
	lems)
In-Reply-To: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869BD@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>
Message-ID: <5A50C9AE-55E7-11D8-8601-000A27960BC6@HarveyNewstrom.com>


On Monday, February 2, 2004, at 05:50 pm, Emlyn O'regan wrote:

> Adrian wrote:
>> including the
>> "nevers" such as strcpy instead of strncpy (or, at
>> least, strcpy into a buffer that could be smaller than
>> necessary).
>
> You can fix a lot of these kinds of problems, also, by only writing in 
> C
> when there is absolutely no alternative. Which is really rather seldom.

Actually, this is not true.  Other computer languages have the same 
basic computer problems as C, usually.  They just hide them from the 
user.  For example, C has pointers that tell you where a string starts. 
  If a pointer is null or points to the wrong spot, you can have a 
problem.  Java doesn't have pointers defined in the language.  Most 
people believe that Java therefore doesn't have pointers in the 
programs.  Not so!  The Java compiler does indeed use pointers, just as 
all machine-language compiled code does.  It just does not provide any 
language equivalent to discuss them or utilize them.  Java programs can 
still crash with a null-pointer error, which confuses Java people who 
think it has no pointers.

Another example:  In C, a string of characters is an array of 
characters.  So the variable NAME_ONE is really a pointer to a series 
of characters.  In C, if you set NAME_TWO to equal NAME_ONE, only the 
pointer is copied.  Both variables point to the same sequence in 
memory.  Thus, any changes to NAME_ONE magically appear changed in 
NAME_TWO, because they really are overlapping memory spaces.  Guess 
what?  Java does the same thing.  Only without the pointers, it isn't 
clear.  Declare a Java string called NAME_ONE.  Declare another 
variable called NAME_TWO and set it equal to NAME_ONE.  Suprisingly, 
any change to one variable appears in the other.  Many Java programmers 
don't know this, because they don't know how the underlying pointers 
and structures are being used.

It is not clear to me if Java fixes the problems of C, or just hides 
them so they are harder to see.

--
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec 
Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS Certified GIAC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com>



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 01:30:16 2004
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 17:30:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] and Moses stretched out his hand ..
In-Reply-To: <001901c3e1ad$aab227e0$12c21b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <20040203013016.57251.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com>

Tripling the night? Well that's easy. Einstein's theories of time dilation hold the answer as demonstrated by these quotes-

"Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity." -Albert Einstein.

"A man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. He sits on a hot stove for a minute, it's longer than any hour. That is relativity." -Albert Einstein.

suggests an obvious answer: Alcmene was ugly and Zeus did it with her on a hot stove.

:)

 

scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:

(fwd, from another list)

'Modeling of the Hydrodynamic Situation During the Exodus' 
published (?) in the Bulletin of the Russian Acad. of Sciences
http://www.sptimes.ru/archive/times/936/top/t_11445.htm
Ok, waiting for somebody able to show how Zeus suceeded in
tripling the length of the night, so he could have more time 
to make love to Alcmena, whose husband he was impersonating ..


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

The Avantguardian 


"He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."

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From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Tue Feb  3 01:48:46 2004
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:18:46 +1030
Subject: Poxy old computers (was RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Spirit Prob
	lems)
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869C6@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harvey Newstrom [mailto:mail at HarveyNewstrom.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, 3 February 2004 10:52 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: Poxy old computers (was RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Spirit
> Prob lems)
> 
> On Monday, February 2, 2004, at 05:50 pm, Emlyn O'regan wrote:
> 
> > Adrian wrote:
> >> including the
> >> "nevers" such as strcpy instead of strncpy (or, at
> >> least, strcpy into a buffer that could be smaller than
> >> necessary).
> >
> > You can fix a lot of these kinds of problems, also, by only 
> writing in 
> > C
> > when there is absolutely no alternative. Which is really 
> rather seldom.
> 
> Actually, this is not true.  Other computer languages have the same 
> basic computer problems as C, usually.  They just hide them from the 
> user.  For example, C has pointers that tell you where a 
> string starts. 
>   If a pointer is null or points to the wrong spot, you can have a 
> problem.  Java doesn't have pointers defined in the language.  Most 
> people believe that Java therefore doesn't have pointers in the 
> programs.  Not so!  The Java compiler does indeed use 
> pointers, just as 
> all machine-language compiled code does.  It just does not 
> provide any 
> language equivalent to discuss them or utilize them.  Java 
> programs can 
> still crash with a null-pointer error, which confuses Java people who 
> think it has no pointers.

Yes, Java doesn't have pointers, it has object references instead, which
suffer from the same problems of referencing uninitialised memory as other
languages (or at least trying to dereference a nil variable as if it were an
object). But what you wont do (unless you try really really really hard) is:

- Access a freed but not nil object reference (because you have to clear
them for the gc to take the object away).
- Access an uninitialised but non-zero reference (because (I think) the
references are all initialised to nil)
- Leak memory (unless you really work at it)

Yes, there are pointers, but they are not as general, and so not anywhere
near as prone to screw ups. In general, it's much easier to get things
right. There are also lots of pointers under the covers in the VM, doing the
abstraction for you, but we'll assume the VM writers and compiler writers
are getting it right :-)

> 
> Another example:  In C, a string of characters is an array of 
> characters.  So the variable NAME_ONE is really a pointer to a series 
> of characters.  In C, if you set NAME_TWO to equal NAME_ONE, only the 
> pointer is copied.  Both variables point to the same sequence in 
> memory.  Thus, any changes to NAME_ONE magically appear changed in 
> NAME_TWO, because they really are overlapping memory spaces.  Guess 
> what?  Java does the same thing.  Only without the pointers, it isn't 
> clear.  Declare a Java string called NAME_ONE.  Declare another 
> variable called NAME_TWO and set it equal to NAME_ONE.  Suprisingly, 
> any change to one variable appears in the other.

That's not surprising for any half decent programmer. It may sound
unintuitive, but if you compare it to C or C++ string handling (including
all the various libraries you'll run across, the hell of trying to convert
between them, the sheer verbosity of managing strings in C compared to a
high level language), it really is child's play.

> Many Java 
> programmers 
> don't know this, because they don't know how the underlying pointers 
> and structures are being used.

Well, shitty coders are shitty coders, you can't do much about that (except
watch them closely and carry a big knobbly blunt instrument).

The amount you need to know, however, to get it right in C or C++ vs get it
right in Java is very different.

> 
> It is not clear to me if Java fixes the problems of C, or just hides 
> them so they are harder to see.
> 

It doesn't fix them. Hand coding is always going to suffer from issues like
this, full stop. What it does do is to strongly ameliorate these issues. So
that for domains to which both C (or C++!) and Java are applicable, Java
coding can be done far more quickly and more accurately by someone with a
lower skill level than that required for C/C++ programming. 

I'll issue a disclaimer here that I've hardly written any Java; I'm
primarily Delphi programmer (who also writes a lot of everything else, like
everyone else also does). Delphi's a lot like Java, but has pointers and no
GC, so has more of the C pointer issues (although you can stick to object
references and never have the problems). You can always theoretically say
that all the languages are equivalent, and can theoretically face the same
issues, so you may as well pick C/C++ because it's industrial strength. But
in practice, the (good) higher level languages really crap all over C/C++
for productivity, reliability, and general ease of use for domains to which
both are applicable. We would have a lot less of those nasty coding related
security issues if people stuck to the right languages in the right
circumstances, and ditched C/C++ for application development. 

Emlyn

> --
> Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
> Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec 
> Manager,
> NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS Certified GIAC
> <HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Feb  3 03:05:05 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:05:05 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c3e9e9$8c5d91a0$d3994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Damien Broderick
> cryo cat
>  
> I always believe what I read in the paper, such as:
> 
> A tomcat nicknamed Frosty found frozen to the ground in 
> minus 29 degrees was saved by a Minnesota animal shelter. Staff
wrapped four- 
> year-old Frosty in hot towels to thaw him out over three days. >


But don't read more into the article than is actually there.
Clearly cryocat wasn't out in the -29 for any length
of time, but rather more likely he ran outta the house
with wet paws, which instantly froze, adhering the
hapless beast in place, thus the comment "found frozen
to the ground..."  I would not be surprised if some
evil adolescents arranged for this cruel event after 
speculating on the outcome, then fled the scene upon 
realizing they could not reasily free the animal.  The 
article is not actually claiming the cat was solidly 
frozen methinks, altho it is easily misinterpreted as such.

This brings up a curiosity I have been pondering occasionally
since our discussion of universal translators and the
fact that various languages seem to be missing words that
other languages have.  I am told that English is a very
large very inclusive language.  On this I must take one's
word, for I know no other tongue.  But I have been taking
note of words my own language should have but does not,
such as the one I thought of after reading about Frosty
the cryocat: what is the word for a female cat?  Frosty
is a tomcat, what is his feminine counterpart?  Why do 
we have the word bitch for female dog, but what is her
masculine counterpart?

Most languages have words specifying the difference
between mother's parents and father's parents.  English
has only the generic grandmother and grandfather.  Big
omission.  Other curious holes in the language so obvious 
that various dialects have attempted to patch the gap:

1.  you (plural)
2.  sheep (singular)
3.  Janet Jackson's boobs

etc. Other examples?

spike  





From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Feb  3 03:15:53 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 19:15:53 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c3e9e9$8c5d91a0$d3994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <001001c3ea04$08bb3080$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


Sorry to clutter the list:

Damien your mailbox is refusing delivery again.  {8-[

spike




From asa at nada.kth.se  Tue Feb  3 03:34:38 2004
From: asa at nada.kth.se (Anders Sandberg)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 04:34:38 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <00ec01c3e9e9$8c5d91a0$d3994a43@texas.net>
	<000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <2028.213.112.90.180.1075779278.squirrel@webmail.nada.kth.se>


Spike said:
> Most languages have words specifying the difference
> between mother's parents and father's parents.  English
> has only the generic grandmother and grandfather.  Big
> omission.

Yes, it constantly (?) annoys me. On the other hand, the treatment of
cousins in English is wonderfully simple - the children of siblings are
cousins, their children are second cousins, theirs third cousins and so
on. And for unequal  number of generation we get "Nth cousins Kth
removed".
(http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/relation.htm)

In Sweden we instead have separate (and rather unusual words) for these:
sysslingar for second cousins and bryllingar for third cousins. There is a
very rare series of terms tv?m?nningar/trem?nningar/fyrm?nningar for
second, third and fourth cousins, but it is practically never used. And to
my knowledge no way of doing twice removed relations etc.

Personally I like how gender-free English is - nouns are just nouns, while
in Swedish and many other languages they have genders. The clock is a
'she' while the table is an 'it' (but not the same kind of 'it' as a
chair). And if you forget which genus it is, the adjectives in the
sentence get the wrong endings. Messy and especially illogical. Sometimes
it is very good not to include a language feature.


-- 
Anders Sandberg
http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa
http://www.aleph.se/andart/

The sum of human knowledge sounds nice. But I want more.



From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  3 03:25:47 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 21:25:47 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
References: <000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE42HpC9vzAex00039921@hotmail.com>

Actually, there is one. A "tom" is an unaltered male. (One that is "intact"
or hasn't been neitered)
A female equivalent is a "Queen". (I experimented with some cat breeding
about 10 years ago)

I do understand your plight. I have never found a sufficient word for that
moment when you bite into a food such as pizza or a sandwich, but part of
one of the condiments doesn't get incised properly and it comes sliding out
of the food. At this point it hangs for just a moment before gravity takes
over and completes the cutting of the condiment so it now drops onto your
chin on its way down to your the floor, your lap, or the table.

I have taken to calling this "slerbeling". My kids love the word and use it
at school often. One day it may make it to the Oxford dictionary......Why
not? Bling Bling did!




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
To: "'Damien Broderick'" <thespike at earthlink.net>; "'ExI chat list'"
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:05 PM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] cryo cat


> > Damien Broderick
> > cryo cat
> >
> > I always believe what I read in the paper, such as:
> >
> > A tomcat nicknamed Frosty found frozen to the ground in
> > minus 29 degrees was saved by a Minnesota animal shelter. Staff
> wrapped four-
> > year-old Frosty in hot towels to thaw him out over three days. >
>
>
> But don't read more into the article than is actually there.
> Clearly cryocat wasn't out in the -29 for any length
> of time, but rather more likely he ran outta the house
> with wet paws, which instantly froze, adhering the
> hapless beast in place, thus the comment "found frozen
> to the ground..."  I would not be surprised if some
> evil adolescents arranged for this cruel event after
> speculating on the outcome, then fled the scene upon
> realizing they could not reasily free the animal.  The
> article is not actually claiming the cat was solidly
> frozen methinks, altho it is easily misinterpreted as such.
>
> This brings up a curiosity I have been pondering occasionally
> since our discussion of universal translators and the
> fact that various languages seem to be missing words that
> other languages have.  I am told that English is a very
> large very inclusive language.  On this I must take one's
> word, for I know no other tongue.  But I have been taking
> note of words my own language should have but does not,
> such as the one I thought of after reading about Frosty
> the cryocat: what is the word for a female cat?  Frosty
> is a tomcat, what is his feminine counterpart?  Why do
> we have the word bitch for female dog, but what is her
> masculine counterpart?
>
> Most languages have words specifying the difference
> between mother's parents and father's parents.  English
> has only the generic grandmother and grandfather.  Big
> omission.  Other curious holes in the language so obvious
> that various dialects have attempted to patch the gap:
>
> 1.  you (plural)
> 2.  sheep (singular)
> 3.  Janet Jackson's boobs
>
> etc. Other examples?
>
> spike
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Tue Feb  3 04:14:39 2004
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 14:44:39 +1030
Subject: Custom words (was RE: [extropy-chat] cryo cat)
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869C9@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

> Actually, there is one. A "tom" is an unaltered male. (One 
> that is "intact"
> or hasn't been neitered)
> A female equivalent is a "Queen". (I experimented with some 
> cat breeding
> about 10 years ago)
> 
> I do understand your plight. I have never found a sufficient 
> word for that
> moment when you bite into a food such as pizza or a sandwich, 
> but part of
> one of the condiments doesn't get incised properly and it 
> comes sliding out
> of the food. At this point it hangs for just a moment before 
> gravity takes
> over and completes the cutting of the condiment so it now 
> drops onto your
> chin on its way down to your the floor, your lap, or the table.
> 
> I have taken to calling this "slerbeling". My kids love the 
> word and use it
> at school often. One day it may make it to the Oxford 
> dictionary......Why
> not? Bling Bling did!

When I lived in a group house at uni, we used to not wash up quite as often
as might be advisable. So we'd end up with cups & plates around the place
with a layer of hard stuff in the bottom (eg: ever seen a full cup of tea
that has lived under someone's bed for 6 months?). We had so many of these,
I thought it needed a name. I was living with a writer at the time, who had
complained about there not being a rhyme for Orange (except for Porridge,
but that is soooo lame). So, I christened it "borange". A slimy plug of
gelled biological matter in the bottom of a cup or plate, formed over a
period of months from what was originally food or drink, is a borange.

Anyone got some more?

Emlyn



From extropy at unreasonable.com  Tue Feb  3 04:32:39 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2004 23:32:39 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <00ec01c3e9e9$8c5d91a0$d3994a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040202230742.026c0200@mail.comcast.net>

Spike wrote:

>  But I have been taking note of words my own language should have but 
> does not,

Sometimes the lack of distinctions in English can be *very* useful. in many 
other languages, you must determine immediately what the relationship is 
between you and the person you are speaking to -- superior/inferior, 
inferior/superior, peer, intimate -- because it is built into the 
grammatical forms. As in French, where you must decide whether "you" should 
be "tu" or "vous."

English used to have this, with "thou" (intimate, singular) and "you" 
(polite, plural). Our nearest equivalent now is the lesser fuss over 
whether to use "he," "she," or "they" to refer to an individual of unknown 
gender. There are also questions such as the asymmetries in whether someone 
is called by their first name, title and last name, or nickname, and what 
they call you in return. Usually you can stall or finesse your way around 
making a decision more easily in English than in other languages.

>such as the one I thought of after reading about Frosty
>the cryocat: what is the word for a female cat?  Frosty
>is a tomcat, what is his feminine counterpart?  Why do
>we have the word bitch for female dog, but what is her
>masculine counterpart?

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/painting/Animalbabies.shtml has a pretty 
good list.


-- David Lubkin.






From thespike at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 04:30:55 2004
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:30:55 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
References: <000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<Law10-OE42HpC9vzAex00039921@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002001c3ea0e$870fb0a0$3e9c4a43@texas.net>

From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>

Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 9:05 PM
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] cryo cat

> > But don't read more into the article than is actually there.
> > Clearly cryocat wasn't out in the -29 for any length
> > of time, but rather more likely he ran outta the house
> > with wet paws, which instantly froze, adhering the
> > hapless beast in place, thus the comment "found frozen
> > to the ground

That was my first guess, but this

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/7830543.htm

makes it sound worse than chilled paws:

< In Duluth, Minn., people at the city's animal shelter were celebrating the
successful thawing of a 4-year-old gray tomcat found frozen to the ground
earlier this month on a night of 20-below cold.

Kelly Johnson had her doubts when the cat was first brought in, but her
loving care - wrapping him in warm towels straight from the dryer every two
hours - helped restore the cat to health.

"For about three days, he did not move,'' Johnson said.

Eventually the cat, christened "Frosty,'' regained his strength and charming
personality. >

Maybe crouched and stuck in ice, but presumably with some flicker of core
body heat.

Damien Broderick



From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Feb  3 06:30:05 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:30:05 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat, morphed to language discussion
In-Reply-To: <2028.213.112.90.180.1075779278.squirrel@webmail.nada.kth.se>
Message-ID: <000001c3ea1f$2a974bb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Anders Sandberg

> In Sweden we instead have separate (and rather unusual words) 
> for these:  ...   Anders Sandberg

Helpful suggestions all, including (I think David
Lubkin's) word for female feline: queen.  This term
has of course been stolen long ago by the gay community, 
which would explain its non-use in reference to the cat.  

I have witnessed in recent times an attempt by the British
to steal the term "queen," to make it refer to a female 
monarch.  Isn't that odd?  We shall see if this attempt 
is successful, but I doubt that it will, for it seems so 
inherently paradoxical to have a female "queen".

Be that as it may, extropians know that for some time
my burden has been to figure out how to make written
language more understandable to a highly intelligent
but profoundly ignorant being, such as an AI.  As AIs
emerge, written text is the obvious way for AI to be
educated in the ways of their carbon counterparts.  ASCII
is information already in a form that can be directly
accessed by a machine.

Earlier I suggested writing in such a way as to
identify and eliminate ambiguity by specifying which
definition is intended when a word has several meanings.  
Now I take it a step further and suggest we start a 
collection somewhere, a website perhaps, that contains 
text that has been de-ambiguized.  The purpose of this 
text is to use as an education device when AI emerges, 
with the goal of causing the AI to be less puzzled and 
(we hope) more friendly towards humans.

spike 



From thespike at earthlink.net  Tue Feb  3 06:40:48 2004
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:40:48 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] the wrong Spike
References: <000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY><Law10-OE42HpC9vzAex00039921@hotmail.com>
	<002001c3ea0e$870fb0a0$3e9c4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <003801c3ea20$ab18fb20$3e9c4a43@texas.net>

Hmmm...

 amazon tells us about:

The 2030 Spike: Countdown to Global Catastrophe
by Colin Mason

List Price:   $29.95
Edition: Hardcover
Hardcover: 250 pages ;
Publisher: Earthscan Publications, Ltd.; (October 2003)
ISBN: 1844070182
Amazon.com Sales Rank:  890,505

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Editorial Reviews
Book Description
* The disturbing disclosure of six "drivers" - depleting fuel supplies,
population growth, poverty, climate change, famine and water shortages -
that will converge in a catastrophic "spike" in the decade of 2030
* Reveals how the world is poised to plunge into a new Dark Age - unless we
act now

* Reassuringly presents a prioritized action plan to avoid the coming crisis
and build a bright future

The 2030 decade will see six "drivers" converge with unprecedented force in
a statistical "spike" on the graph paper of life. Depleted fuel supplies,
rampant population growth, poverty, climate change, famine and water
shortages are all on a crash course that could plunge the world into a
global dark age.

Mason cuts through the rhetoric, reams of often conflicting information and
doom saying to illustrate a broad picture of the world as it is and the
courses of action that we need to take now to avoid catastrophe. With over
100 priorities for immediate action to prevent crisis in the future, this
book presents a way forward to a bright and prosperous future for all
people.





From gpmap at runbox.com  Tue Feb  3 07:03:49 2004
From: gpmap at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:03:49 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Living machines
Message-ID: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBCECNCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>

>From Wired: Technology and biology are converging fast. The result will
transform everything from engineering to art - and redefine life as we know
it. This interesting article gives examples of features and behaviours
typical of the living world now found in artificial systems and gadgets. For
example, computer scientists are only just beginning to view operating
system design from a biological perspective. In fact, that's the goal of
autonomic computing, an approach that mimics the way the central nervous
system regulates the body. Other examples:
NASA's Space Technology 5 nanosatellites, which are scheduled to start
measuring Earth's magnetosphere in late 2004, requires an antenna that can
receive a wide range of frequencies regardless of the spacecraft's
orientation. Rather than leave such exacting requirements in the hands of a
human, the engineers decided to breed a design using genetic algorithms and
32 Linux PCs. The computers generated small antenna-constructing programs
(the genotypes) and executed them to produce designs (the phenotypes). Then
the designs were evaluated using an antenna simulator.
Like strands of DNA, email messages have a standard data format that amounts
to a genome for legitimate email. Spammers exploit and mutate email genes to
obscure the origin or content of their messages, creating distinctive spam
genes. The genetic approach has made it possible for Cloudmark to identify
spam with better than 98 percent accuracy. And our system is continually
improving: Whenever it mistakes a legit message for spam, a program called
the Evolution Engine mutates the spam genes involved and sends the
misidentified message back through the filter until it classifies the
message correctly. Result: an increasingly precise definition of the spam
genome, and thus increasingly effective filtering.
Research into artificial intelligence aims to make machines more responsive
to their environments. The AI method, however, has been to program devices
to react to specific events, creating machines that are unable to cope with
unexpected circumstances. Complexity theory offers a different perspective.
If a car were designed like a living thing - as a collection of components
wired to regulate one another in response to external stimuli, like organs
mediated by a nervous system - it would act more like a living thing.
Colonies of simulated ants laying down digital scent trails can find the
best way to send delivery trucks through city streets or data packets
through communication networks. More generally, ant algorithms can find
minimum-cost solutions to a variety of problems in distribution and
logistics. Unilever uses them to allocate storage tanks, chemical mixers,
and packaging facilities. Southwest Airlines uses them to optimize its cargo
operations. Numerous consulting houses, such as the Swiss firm AntOptima,
have embraced them as an indispensable tool.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.576 / Virus Database: 365 - Release Date: 30/01/2004
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From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Wed Feb  4 03:20:36 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 19:20:36 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] the wrong Spike
References: <000001c3ea02$865816e0$6501a8c0@SHELLY><Law10-OE42HpC9vzAex00039921@hotmail.com><002001c3ea0e$870fb0a0$3e9c4a43@texas.net>
	<003801c3ea20$ab18fb20$3e9c4a43@texas.net>
Message-ID: <001b01c3eacd$ddb30c80$ceee17cb@renegade>

depleting fuel supplies: abundant oil and gas until nanosolar cells (including in roads), fusion and more advanced power sources
population growth: unable to be of serious concern until the Escalation, though the serious increase in the West starts in 6 years as the cancers and heart attacks and overt neurological malfunctions are halted
poverty: self-reproducing assemblers (simple basics the easiest to software)
climate change: global warming probably averted an ice age - (note climate can be altered by altering continental shapes)
famine: in fact malnutrition stands at 750 million, being reduced by c.100 million per decade currently (early 2000s), could be reduced much faster to very low levels with some moderate political will
water shortages: there is no shortage of water, just different mechanisms for storing it - pipe nano-desalinated sea water to sources for artificial rivers (or whatever)

If the antiSpike was correct as such, the Club of Rome would have been vindicated 15 years ago.

However, where the antiSpike is correct is in relation to extinctions of other species. In this regard, those who do not believe in boosting animals or neo-Tiplerism ought at least to push for freezing species individuals and reproductive materials, in logic. Many do so but governments seem unconcerned. - Personally I value the individual beings (non-self-aware though they may be, partially-conscious though they may be), not the abstract 'species' or their ecological 'interaction' in non-consciously directed environments. The reality is that the biosphere and all ecologies are going to be controlled by us together with AI - and it will be a boosted biosphere. Remember Cordwainer Smith, and remember that things work faster than in the Instrumentality. Any parks are going to be plant parks.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Damien Broderick" <thespike at earthlink.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 10:40 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] the wrong Spike


> Hmmm...
> 
>  amazon tells us about:
> 
> The 2030 Spike: Countdown to Global Catastrophe
> by Colin Mason
> 
> List Price:   $29.95
> Edition: Hardcover
> Hardcover: 250 pages ;
> Publisher: Earthscan Publications, Ltd.; (October 2003)
> ISBN: 1844070182
> Amazon.com Sales Rank:  890,505
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> Editorial Reviews
> Book Description
> * The disturbing disclosure of six "drivers" - depleting fuel supplies,
> population growth, poverty, climate change, famine and water shortages -
> that will converge in a catastrophic "spike" in the decade of 2030
> * Reveals how the world is poised to plunge into a new Dark Age - unless we
> act now
> 
> * Reassuringly presents a prioritized action plan to avoid the coming crisis
> and build a bright future
> 
> The 2030 decade will see six "drivers" converge with unprecedented force in
> a statistical "spike" on the graph paper of life. Depleted fuel supplies,
> rampant population growth, poverty, climate change, famine and water
> shortages are all on a crash course that could plunge the world into a
> global dark age.
> 
> Mason cuts through the rhetoric, reams of often conflicting information and
> doom saying to illustrate a broad picture of the world as it is and the
> courses of action that we need to take now to avoid catastrophe. With over
> 100 priorities for immediate action to prevent crisis in the future, this
> book presents a way forward to a bright and prosperous future for all
> people.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Tue Feb  3 13:51:07 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 07:51:07 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] cryo cat
References: <00ec01c3e9e9$8c5d91a0$d3994a43@texas.net>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040202230742.026c0200@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE29XxcjzWflp000480b3@hotmail.com>

> >such as the one I thought of after reading about Frosty
> >the cryocat: what is the word for a female cat?  Frosty
> >is a tomcat, what is his feminine counterpart?  Why do
> >we have the word bitch for female dog, but what is her
> >masculine counterpart?


Again, bitch is a breeding reference. The male counterpart would be a "sire"
Kevin Freels
>
> http://www.enchantedlearning.com/painting/Animalbabies.shtml has a pretty
> good list.
>
>
> -- David Lubkin.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Tue Feb  3 14:58:27 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:58:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Being Extropic [was: the wrong Spike]
In-Reply-To: <001b01c3eacd$ddb30c80$ceee17cb@renegade>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402030635430.22419-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:

I will not comment on the Mason "...2030 Spike..." it isn't worth the
time to either type comments or read them.

> However, where the antiSpike is correct is in relation to extinctions of
> other species. In this regard, those who do not believe in boosting
> animals or neo-Tiplerism ought at least to push for freezing species
> individuals and reproductive materials, in logic.

Now this statement is right on.  In humans we know that probably 50%
of the individuality (or extropic value) of an individual is genetic.
(I'm pulling this number in large part out of the air based on
discussions of genetic contributions to intelligence, genetic
contributions to aging, etc.)  In non-human species the extropic
component that is contained within the genes is likely to be
even higher.

The frozen preservation of the information content of unique species
is generally extremely inexpensive vis-a-vis the saving of even a single
human life (from AIDS, famine, war, etc.).  Given that environmental
predictions are for the elimination of millions of species over the
next 50 or so years I fail to see why there is not an extremely
active movement in support of the preservation of the information
content of species at risk within our community.

Thus there is a potential point of differentiation between extropic
organizations -- which seek the simple preservation of information
-- and transhumanist organizations -- which may assume that human
information may have greater inherent value.  I do not know -- I
simply point it out as a topic for discussion.

Robert




From scerir at libero.it  Tue Feb  3 16:20:43 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 17:20:43 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] and Moses stretched out his hand ..
References: <20040203013016.57251.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601c3ea71$ae1435f0$c1b61b97@administxl09yj>

The Avantguardian:

> Tripling the night? Well that's easy.
> Einstein's theories of time dilation hold the answer
> [...]

It seems that Zeus did not effect his union with Alcmena 
from the desire of love, sex, or beauty, but only for the sake 
of procreation. So, Zeus did not offer violence to her, nor 
attempted to persuade her chastity, but instead deceived her 
by assuming her husband's shape, thus giving legality to his 
'embraces'. 

Zeus increased the length of the night because the might of the 
child (Heracles-Hercules should defend the - immortal - Gods 
from the - mortal - Giants) was in relation to the time employed 
in its procreation.

So, I think Zeus manipulated a physical parameter, not just
his or her phychological state (Bergson's time). 

Btw, when Alcmena's (proper) husband was told, by Tiresias, that 
Zeus was the father of the latter, he never again slept with his 
wife for fear of the God's jealousy. It seems that Hera was insane 
with jealousy of Zeus' infidelity, and as a punishment she sent 
snakes to her, which were killed by the already strong baby 
Heracles-Hercules (... and this seems ok, to me). 







From ebaum at fastmail.fm  Tue Feb  3 16:40:47 2004
From: ebaum at fastmail.fm (Eric Baum)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:40:47 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why Occam's Razor?
Message-ID: <16415.53007.307562.799507@192.168.1.4>


If you are interested in Occam's Razor, I suggest you will find
*What is Thought?* more illuminating.
Over the last 20-40 years, computer scientists have formalized
Occam's razor from a number of perspectives:
"Vapnik-Chervonenkis dimension", Minimum Description Length,
Bayesian statistics among them. Chapter 4 of What is Thought?
provides a pedagogical survey of this literature, including the
ideas behind the main theorems in each of these formalizations.
I believe it is clearly written-- a number of people from various
walks of life have complimented me on chapter 4's
clarity in particular.

Very roughly speaking, CS has formalized Occam's razor to say:
if you have a lot of data and you find a sufficiently compact
description of it, that can only happen because there is a
simple underlying structure to the process producing the data,
and the compact description has captured this structure.

So, for example, (roughly speaking) the fact that Newton's 
laws explain a vast array of data implies that the world 
is describable by simple physics.

What is Thought? is organized around a generalization of this 
formalized Occam's razor, and explains
in some concrete detail why and how thought results from evolution's 
exploitation of it, why thought then has the qualities and capabilities
it does, how consciousness arises and what it is, and various
related topics.

What is Thought?
Eric B. Baum
MIT press, Jan 2004. 
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=2WI405VPJU&isbn=0262025485&itm=17

On Jan 28, 2004 Ray J. Bradbury wrote:

> I can't even figure out how I ran across this, but given that Hal
> and Wei Dai are cited in the acknowledgments section it seems
> worthy of note...

> Why Occam's Razor Russell K. Standish
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks/docs/occam/occam.html

> I'll observe that from the bibliography one needs to be versed in
> quantum mechanics, multiverse and turing machine theory to be able
> to get through this.

> Robert


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  3 16:43:27 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 08:43:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] ASTRO: Cheap 18" f8 Folding Newton scope
Message-ID: <20040203164328.68117.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>

http://folk.uio.no/johannwi/mike/

This fellow is rather ingenious, developing an open frame Newtonian
Telescope which is easily assembled or disassembled in a few minutes,
and offers a really wide field of view (f8), doesn't require a really
expensive main mirror (the fellow sells mirror grinders as well).
Weighing only 30 lb, it is easily transportable to remote locations for
outstanding wilderness star viewing.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
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From reason at longevitymeme.org  Tue Feb  3 19:42:36 2004
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 11:42:36 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Being Extropic [was: the wrong Spike]
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402030635430.22419-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNMELHEDAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Robert J.
> Bradbury

> Thus there is a potential point of differentiation between extropic
> organizations -- which seek the simple preservation of information
> -- and transhumanist organizations -- which may assume that human
> information may have greater inherent value.  I do not know -- I
> simply point it out as a topic for discussion.

Hmm. What about the importance of information processing as a separate topic
from the importance of information? Or the importance of a growth curve to
information as opposed to preservation? If we're all up for preserving but
not growth or processing, we start to look a lot like the Jarts from Greg
Bear's novels.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Tue Feb  3 21:01:43 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2004 13:01:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Being Extropic [was: the wrong Spike]
In-Reply-To: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNMELHEDAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402031242590.29623-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Reason wrote:

> Hmm. What about the importance of information processing as a separate topic
> from the importance of information? Or the importance of a growth curve to
> information as opposed to preservation? If we're all up for preserving but
> not growth or processing, we start to look a lot like the Jarts from Greg
> Bear's novels.

I am unfamiliar with the Jarts -- but I was of course making a simplification
because the idea of preserving genomic information which is the product
of millions of years of evolution is very simple.  It can be done now and
it is extropic.  There are very separate discussions which would debate how
to preserve the highest amount of current information content (presumably
along the lines of freezing the brain of every human that dies) and/or create
the most information in the nearest possible future (which involve throwing
Bush's plans for visiting Mars into the garbage can and getting on with the
task of planetary dismantlement to build XYZZY-Brains).  But I was avoiding
those discussions since they raise much more controversial issues.

And the last time I raised an "ultimate" utilitarian proposal for a
plausible strategy for accelerating the increase in the information content
of the universe on the "extropians" list I got my butt kicked for even
proposing it.  So I will tend to stick to the "safe" proposals for now.

Robert

Just as a curious note (kind of studying the ExI reader list) -- who
knows the origin of XYZZY?  (I perhaps encountered it about 25 years
ago.)





From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Feb  4 03:41:54 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 19:41:54 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] "VP" Summit - New pages on Website
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040203193524.00acec40@pop.earthlink.net>

Extropes and other trans:

We have been working on simplifying the interim Summit web pages and, of 
course, the Press Release.  The pages will change when the Summit commences 
because the format or infrastructure of the Summit will be online and these 
pages will then become reference pages.

Tomorrow I will add reading material, and this will also be announced in 
the upcoming Newsletter which will be delivered Wednesday evening, 2/4/04.

Thanks to everyone for your constructive criticism, and especially to 
Reason, Damien, Harvey, Max, Adrian, Robert, and Greg.

Natasha


Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
----------
President, Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture  http://www.transhumanist.biz
http://www.transhuman.org
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From nanowave at shaw.ca  Tue Feb  3 21:40:07 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 13:40:07 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Living machines
References: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBCECNCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <004201c3ea9e$4b136340$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Thanks, an interesting article. Just a friendly reminder though. You might want to avoid posting more than just a teaser here since this behavior tends to piss people off with regard to bypassed advertising and revenues. That is unless you're making an "information wants to be free" and "damn the torpedos" statement as well - in which case, carry on.

RE
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From iph1954 at msn.com  Wed Feb  4 04:25:38 2004
From: iph1954 at msn.com (MIKE TREDER)
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2004 23:25:38 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] CRN Wins Top Honors
Message-ID: <BAY5-F30AMdGwGMFdXS0000cab0@hotmail.com>

CRN is pleased and proud to announce that we have been designated as "Best 
Advocate" and "Best of the Best" for 2003 by Nanotechnology Now.

http://nanotech-now.com/2003-Awards/Best-of-the-Best-2003.htm

The Center for Responsible Nanotechnology was founded by Mike Treder and 
Chris Phoenix in December 2002. In our first year, we published numerous 
papers and articles, made presentations at several conferences, addressed 
the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, provided invited submissions to 
the British Royal Society and the American Council for the United Nations 
University, and energized discussion of nanotechnology policy issues.

The vision of CRN is a world in which nanotechnology is widely used for 
productive and beneficial purposes, and where malicious uses are limited by 
effective administration of the technology. Thanks to everyone who supported 
us, encouraged us, and challenged us in 2003.

Mike Treder
Executive Director
Center for Responsible Nanotechnology
http://CRNano.org

_________________________________________________________________
Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software ? optimizes dial-up to the max! 
   http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1



From alito at organicrobot.com  Wed Feb  4 11:08:19 2004
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 21:08:19 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] g**gle powers up a level
Message-ID: <1075892899.32186.300.camel@alito.homeip.net>

http://catalog.g**gle.com
they've scanned a lot of junk mail, but they added word recognition (and
highliting).  very nice.

your humble g**gle servant (have to try to gain favors with the future
sysop) 



From natasha at natasha.cc  Wed Feb  4 15:52:45 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:52:45 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] CRN Wins Top Honors
In-Reply-To: <BAY5-F30AMdGwGMFdXS0000cab0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040204075114.02e0de40@pop.earthlink.net>

At 11:25 PM 2/3/04 -0500, MIKE TREDER wrote:

>CRN is pleased and proud to announce that we have been designated as "Best 
>Advocate" and "Best of the Best" for 2003 by Nanotechnology Now.

http://nanotech-now.com/2003-Awards/Best-of-the-Best-2003.htm


Mike and Chris, Congratulations!

How wonderful to see friends becoming so successful.

Cheers!

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
----------
President, Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture  http://www.transhumanist.biz
http://www.transhuman.org
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From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Wed Feb  4 16:53:23 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:53:23 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] CRN Wins Top Honors
In-Reply-To: <BAY5-F30AMdGwGMFdXS0000cab0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <A4B0BDA2-5732-11D8-A45B-000A27960BC6@HarveyNewstrom.com>


On Tuesday, February 3, 2004, at 11:25 pm, MIKE TREDER wrote:

> CRN is pleased and proud to announce that we have been designated as 
> "Best Advocate" and "Best of the Best" for 2003 by Nanotechnology Now.
>
> http://nanotech-now.com/2003-Awards/Best-of-the-Best-2003.htm

Wow!  Excellent work guys!

--
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec 
Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS Certified GIAC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com>



From jcorb at iol.ie  Wed Feb  4 20:25:36 2004
From: jcorb at iol.ie (J Corbally)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:25:36 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] EVENT!  Max turns 40!
In-Reply-To: <200401300708.i0U78fE20443@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040204201510.00abd370@pop.iol.ie>

"May you live as long as you want, and never want as long as you live"
- Old Irish blessing

Have a good one, Max.



James...



At 12:08 AM 1/30/04 -0700, you wrote:
>Message: 26
>Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 23:30:20 -0500
> >From: "Harvey Newstrom" <mail at HarveyNewstrom.com>
>Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] EVENT!  Max turns 40!
>To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Message-ID: <017b01c3e6e9$c80735b0$cc01a8c0 at DELLBERT>
>Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"
>
>Ha!  He's just a baby!  I'm a 40-and-*half*...
>
>Remember how children used to brag about fractional years?  And then they
>counted whole years?  And now we mark decades as milestones?
>
>I don't think transhumanists will even be considered adults until they reach
>their first millennium.  So...
>
>Happy .04th kilobirthday, Max!  I wish you many, many kilo more!
>
>--
>Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
>Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
>NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS Certified GIAC
><HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com>




From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  4 23:10:11 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:10:11 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad
Message-ID: <Law10-OE18EkTzaGQQX0004a751@hotmail.com>

This is a post froma different group I am a member of:


Today has been a critical day in the process of saving the Apollo
Launch Tower.

Wednesday may well be the last make-or-break day to rescue this
instantly-recognizable historic structure from final destruction.  
They start using cutting torches within the next day or so.

We need three things now, and I BEG everyone here to do ANYTHING they
can to help us:

1) Corporate Backing.

2) Money.

3) Publicity.


The primary goal for Wednesday is to get the Corporate Backing:

We have expedited our plans to approach the Smithsonian Institution
and the National Trust for Historic Preservation (NTHP).   The NTHP is
most important at this precise moment because we need to get the tower
re-listed on their renowned list of America's 11 Most Endangered
Historic Sites:

http://www.nationaltrust.org/11most/2003/index.html

This tower is sure historic, and is very surely endangered right now.

After making contact on Tuesday I think we will get their support, but
you might like to help us by contacting them and let them know of your
personal support for this restoration effort:

http://www.nationaltrust.org/help/contact.html?cat=0

Once we have an affiliation to a larger organisation, we can take that
backing to NASA and I believe that will be enough for them to put a
stay of execution on the disposal effort currently underway.

NASA's team dealing with the 'remedial disposal' project has responded
very favourably to my comments today and I believe we will have a very
positive response from them if we can just pull our plans together in
this extremely short time instead of the months we thought we had!

Regarding the Money:

We have a number of avenues for funding which we still need to chase
down, but we are still looking for even more.   If you know ANYBODY
who knows anybody with a fortune burning a hole in their wallet, and
an interest in the space program, pester them TODAY to get in contact
with us and remind them how urgent this is.

Give them my e-mail address:

ross.tierney AT savethelut.org (ross.tierney at savethelut.org)

And finally we need publicity:

We are trying to contact as many news agencies as we can to cover this
story and we encourage as many of you as possible to please call up
your local TV and radio stations and tell them.   Also let your local
newspaper know.

Jim McDade (the society's CEO) or myself can take press enquiries.

jim.mcdade AT savethelut.org (jim.mcdade at savethelut.org)

If you know anyone in the press - write to them as soon as you
possibly can today.   You can usually find their e-mail addresses
online in a few minutes by typing their name into Google.

We need many more signatures on the petition.   The Mars Society have
tonight very graciously agreed to help promote this campaign in this
moment of desperate need and they are writing to all their members
right now to inform them.   Also the National Association of Rocketry
have very kindly informed all of their chapters - many of whom are
also working hard to spread the word for us too.   And I thank every
person who is helping us with this effort.

http://www.petitiononline.com/LUT/

Print off some of the pages from our website and stick it up in your
work's cafeteria to get people's attention.   It all helps and we need
every last bit of support right now.

We are working to get in contact with Ron Howard, Tom Hanks, James
Cameron and a number of other notable supporters of the space program
to get their support too.

If you know any more ways to contact these people (or others), now is
the time.   Wait until tomorrow and it could be too late.

We need everyone's support, and I thank every single one of you now
for supporting us this far.

Ross B Tierney
Chief Operating Officer
The Space Restoration Society
www.savethelut.org
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb  4 23:34:48 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 15:34:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE18EkTzaGQQX0004a751@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040204233448.90832.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>

A future oriented organization is wasting its resources doing
'historical preservation'. You don't need to preserve the launch tower.
No school kids will ever be allowed to hike up and down it. I would
much rather it be refurbished to be used to launch Bush's new
Apollo-class capsules. Then it would actually be accomplishing
something, and actually educating kids by example that they need to
keep their eyes focused on the future, not dwelling on the past.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 01:18:40 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 17:18:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] GE: Mouse Got Big Balls...
Message-ID: <20040205011840.36451.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3458533.stm

Mice have been used to produce viable monkey sperm using tissue
transplanted from the testes of macaques. 

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 02:07:45 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:07:45 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad
References: <20040204233448.90832.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE56fwTXSRdZq00004c1c@hotmail.com>

Hadn;t really thought of it that way. I see your point

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2004 5:34 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad


> A future oriented organization is wasting its resources doing
> 'historical preservation'. You don't need to preserve the launch tower.
> No school kids will ever be allowed to hike up and down it. I would
> much rather it be refurbished to be used to launch Bush's new
> Apollo-class capsules. Then it would actually be accomplishing
> something, and actually educating kids by example that they need to
> keep their eyes focused on the future, not dwelling on the past.
> 
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it!
> http://webhosting.yahoo.com/ps/sb/
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Thu Feb  5 04:14:24 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 20:14:24 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Canadian Trojan Horse Packs a Wallop
References: <20040204233448.90832.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Law10-OE56fwTXSRdZq00004c1c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c3eb9e$8a013180$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

OTTAWA - A new book says a Canadian company was at the centre of an
elaborate Cold War scheme in which a Soviet agent was allowed to steal gas
pipeline software that had been secretly designed to fail on a catastrophic
scale.

The ruse led to a June 1982 explosion in the Siberian wilderness -- "the
most monumental non-nuclear explosion and fire ever seen from space," ...


http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/story.asp?id=23B2DAF2-2CA8-498D-9023-D691A27A9492

    (Apparently Celine Dion has someting similar in store for  "all those
god damned file swappers")
Russell Evermore
nanowave at shaw.ca



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Feb  5 04:33:36 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:33:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE18EkTzaGQQX0004a751@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040205043336.84779.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Wednesday may well be the last make-or-break day to
> rescue this
> instantly-recognizable historic structure from final
> destruction.  
> They start using cutting torches within the next day
> or so.

I am reminded of a science fiction race of fly-like
creatures, that was psychologically unable to dispose
of anything.  Be it the cocoon they emerged from or a
stain from yesterday's meal...any reminder of the past
was sacred and inviolable.

They were part of the game Cosmic Encounters.  Their
special power was that, when they moved onto a planet,
everyone else had to leave, and stay off until the
planet was sterilized.  No one else could abide the
sheer amount of trash.  How these creatures spared the
resources to get off their planet in the first place
was one of the great mysteries.

Let the metal live on in things that will be used.  We
know that metal does not have feelings, but to those
who are unsure, ask: what if you had once been a part
of the space program, a valiant symbol of work as well
as useful in building and launching the rockets...and
then some administrators decreed that henceforth, you
would only be a symbol, standing inert and useless
where you were so that others could look on you and
wail about the good old days instead of following up
on the work you helped start?  With space in your
"blood" like that, would you not prefer to be recycled
into another launch tower, or even another rocket?


From trichrom at optusnet.com.au  Thu Feb  5 05:21:17 2004
From: trichrom at optusnet.com.au (Rob KPO)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 15:21:17 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad
References: <20040205043336.84779.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3eba7$e61c8380$0200a8c0@snasa>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad

> With space in your
> "blood" like that, would you not prefer to be recycled
> into another launch tower, or even another rocket?
>

Given the facilities awareness of the program, and exposure to it, I'd much
rather be an admired living history of something greater then my actual
worth. Cultural icon's in something more than a historical picture isnt such
a bad thing, especially for helping the young develop real appreciation for
the past.

What would be better is to keep it, build the new one nearby so they can
stand together as a demonstration of the US development towards space.

Destroying it is like scraping the Pyramids to build a new airport... sorta.

Regards

Rob O



From reason at longevitymeme.org  Thu Feb  5 06:39:12 2004
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 22:39:12 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] "Fight Aging!" collaborative weblog launches
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNIEMPEDAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>

As an extension to the Longevity Meme ( http://www.longevitymeme.org ), I
have launched the "Fight Aging!" collaborative weblog - allowing myself and
other contributers to do all the fun things I really can't do with the
Longevity Meme in terms of link exchanges, interaction, divertissements and
online networking with the blog community. It's a very active space, and a
good target for basic advocacy and education for healthy life extension.

http://www.fightaging.org

If you blog, you can help make the growth curve a little sharper for us by
linking to Fight Aging! or giving us a mention. If you've made a
contribution to the Methuselah Mouse prize (
http://www.methuselahmouse.org ) and have a blog, let us know - we'd like to
build a list of contributing bloggers. If you have an abiding, demonstrated
interest in life extension, can write, and would like to make the occasional
meaningful contribution to educating the world about longer, healthier
lives, also let us know.

Suggestions, bug notices and constructive criticism gracefully taken.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme



From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Fri Feb  6 01:04:45 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:04:45 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] crossbar architecture nanoswitches
Message-ID: <000601c3ec72$ab429440$12ee17cb@renegade>

Reinventing the transistor Claire Tristram Technology Review Sept 03

Every Friday afternoon at Hewlett-Packard Labs in Palo Alto, CA, R. Stanley
Williams, one of the most respected thinkers in the field of molecular
electronics, gets his group of 25 research scientists together to talk shop.
One by one, they make their way to the conference room. Williams walks in
exactly on time, sits down in front, and leans back, frowning, his hands
steepled. He was hired by HP in 1995 to rethink the basics of computing and
has handpicked the team inside this room to do just that. Williams likes to
wear jeans, and his hair reaches halfway down his back, so he gives a first,
fleeting impression of quietude and informality. But he apparently never
smiles, and his people work 19-hour days to meet his deadlines. Williams
waits a few minutes for the habitual latecomers, then stands up. He speaks
in an efficient monotone.
"We're going to hear first from Gun-Young today," he says. "What he has
accomplished is magnificent. Everyone here owes him a lunch because his hard
work has paid for our salaries for the last several months."
Gun-Young Jung, a recent postdoc from South Korea, stands up and quietly
describes his work on nano imprint lithography, a process that uses a
physical mold to create features as small as six nanometers across on
silicon wafers. That's more than an order of magnitude smaller than the
finest features achievable using today's advanced photolithographic
processes. Sometimes things stick to the mold, though. It's like cake batter
sticking to a pan, he says. His presentation lasts about ten minutes and is
followed by two others.
Listening to these speakers, one after another, gradually conveys a sense of
the group's style. They enjoy self-deprecating humor and inject frequent
expressions of bewilderment into their scientific explanations, like "I
don't know" and "it's still a mystery" and "I still need to investigate,"
and even "I am still quite a novice." And despite their obvious expertise,
this isn't false modesty.
Williams's group faces a monumental task: trying to make computers whose
functionality rests on the workings of molecules. To do so will mean
reinventing the transistor. While silicon and other inorganic semiconductors
have always been the basic building blocks of microchips, it turns out that
organic molecules can also have some potentially useful electrical
properties. Indeed, over the last few years, researchers have learned to
synthesize molecules that can function as electronic switches, holding
binary 1s or Os in memory or taking part in logical operations. And
molecules have one significant advantage: they are really small. Such work
is critical to the future of computing, because conventional chip
fabrication technology is on a collision course with economics. Today's best
computer chips have silicon features as small as 90 nanometers. But the
smaller the features, the more expensive the optical equipment needed to
manufacture them. A state-of-the-art fabrication plant for silicon
microchips now costs some $3 billion to build. A chip in which silicon
transistors are replaced with molecular devices, on the other hand, could in
principle be fabricated through a simple chemical process as inexpensive as
making photographic film. A circuit with 10 billion switches could
eventually fit on a grain of salt; that's a thousand times the density of
the transistors in today's best computers. A computer built from such
circuits could search billions of documents or thousands of hours of video
in seconds, conduct highly accurate simulations and predictions of weather
and other physical phenomena, and do a much better job of imitating human
intelligence, perhaps even communicating with us through natural
conversation.
But no matter how tempting in theory, it's speculative, blue-sky research,
and investing in molecular electronics is a gamble few companies have been
willing to make. HP's confidence in Williams is a big reason it's one of the
exceptions, says Shane Robison, the company's executive vice president and
chief strategy and technology officer. "In addition to his ability to put
together a first-class team of cross-disciplinary experts and an emphasis on
how to turn science and technology into real products, Stan's best quality
is probably his eternal optimism," says Robison. Of course, there's also the
lure of immense profits, should Williams's technology ever displace
conventional silicon chips. "Projects this ambitious are always a long shot,
but we wouldn't be doing it if we didn't think there was a good chance of
succeeding," Robison says.
To be sure, the company has hedged its bet by being cautious with funding.
Williams's group has a four-year, $12.5 million grant from the U.S. Defense
Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), and HP provides matching funds,
but about half of the DARPA funding goes to university research partners.
Signs of economizing are everywhere in the lab, from a shortage of supplies
in the coffee room to jury-rigged equipment. Nonetheless, the group has made
one breakthrough after another-most notably, by proving that a "crossbar"
design once common in conventional electronics can be resurrected on the
molecular scale. In a demonstration last year, the group trapped molecules
in the junctions between titanium and platinum nanowires arranged in an
eight-by-eight, one-micrometer-square grid, and showed that the molecules
can be switched "on" and "off" at specific junctions-a first step in
building a working memory or logic device.
Williams was first to come up with an architecture for molecular computing
that "worked," says Meyya Meyyappan, director of nanotechnology research at
NASA Ames Research Center at Moffett Field, CA. "I can't think of anyone
else who has that kind of forward thinking." But despite these
breakthroughs, the challenges in making molecular electronics are many and
baffling. How do you make nanocomponents interact with the conventional
electronics needed to get information in and out? How do you program a
computer made from molecular electronics? But most fundamentally, what
materials make the best molecular switches, and how can they be arranged
with the precision and reliability required for mass manufacturing?
That last question is one of the major concerns of Williams's lab these
days. And as time spent with the researchers reveals, things at this scale
are so difficult to observe and measure that conclusions can easily crumble
back into speculation-as when seemingly important results turn out to be
anomalies in experimental procedure or mistakes in interpretation. Even
successful, verifiable results still present more questions than answers.
When electrons travel through a macroscopic wire, they behave more or less
like fluid in a pipe running downhill. But what happens when a billion or so
electrons per second are passing through a single molecule? To borrow a
favorite phrase from those in Williams's group, it's a mystery.
It turns out that a little humility is a very good thing in this field, and
serious researchers are reluctant to supply even rough predictions about
when molecular electronics will meet the same rigorous standards of
manufacture and testing that today's computers do.
"If you were to ask me when we'll start seeing these things commercialized,
my answer is that I don't know," says Williams. "We don't understand the
fundamental physics of why molecules switch. Until we do, we can't build a
factory to produce them. It might take us decades to understand it. Or we
might figure it out tomorrow."
Spend some time in Williams's lab and you start to understand why a lot
about molecular electronics is still a mystery, beginning with the
relatively simple question of what exactly the researchers are building.
Yong Chen, a native of China and a member of Williams's group since 1998,
spends a lot of his time sitting in a stuffy, windowless, nine-square-meter
room padded with thick foam. It's the home of a delicate electron
microscope, which uses electron beams to create a rough picture of the
structures Chen creates in the laboratory down the hall.
Chen is the leader of the team that has given the group its biggest public
success to date, the 64-bit crossbar memory. His team first imprinted eight
parallel nanowires made of titanium and platinum on a silicon substrate, and
covered these wires with a one-molecule-thick layer of a synthetic chemical
called rotaxane. They then deposited a second set of titanium wires
perpendicular to the first, creating the possibility of an electrical
connection between the wires at any junction in the grid.
Each molecule of rotaxane-which was invented by chemist Fraser Stoddart at
the University of California, Los Angeles-consists of a long axle with two
lumps of atoms at each end, and a ring of atoms circling the axle. Stoddart
and Williams's groups theorize that when a voltage is applied through a
specific, intersecting pair of nanowires, the rings on the rotaxane
molecules between the wires "jump" from one end of the axle to the other and
stay there until another voltage is applied. This could raise or lower the
molecules' resistance to electrical current, and these two states of
conductivity would represent digital 1s or Os. Now Chen, eager to see how
small he can make such a device, is trying to print the individual wires
even closer together. It's painstaking labor, where you never know if you're
making progress until the moment it works.
Today Chen is open mouthed, rapt, focusing absolute attention on the monitor
in front of him, while also trying to carry on a conversation. He is not
entirely successful. Several minutes pass quietly as a question hangs in the
air, unanswered. He increases the microscope's magnification as he searches
through a series of fuzzy, gray-on-gray images that look like satellite
photos of a desert.
"After we finish the fabrication process, we come in here to check what kind
of thing we have got," he says. "I want to see if the wire is grounded to
the substrate or suspended above it. There's one. Oops, I lost it."
Eventually he finds something that looks like a length of rebar on a pile of
charcoal dust but is actually a wire, 35 nanometers in width, resting on the
silicon base. He takes a picture, silent again, holding his breath since
sound waves will affect the quality of the image.
"We can talk now," he says. "Here, in fact, you can see this wire is broken.
Too bad. This is a routine experiment, frankly." Chen's goal is to find a
combination of materials-a "recipe," if you will-that will impart a
Teflon-like non-stickiness to the mold that deposits the wires on the
substrate; otherwise they bulge and twist when the mold is removed. But
sitting in this hushed, foam-covered room, watching one of the leading
scientists in the field searching through grainy images, you realize just
how difficult it is to work on this scale. Three weeks later, after five
months of painstaking experiment and observations, Chen and Gun-Young Jung
find the result they were looking for, bringing the possibility of
molecular-sized circuits a small step closer.
"I miscalculated several things," Chen says simply.
Now he can move on to the next problem.
Observing results, of course, is the last step in a train of events that
traditionally begins with a theory about how things should behave. In the
case of molecular electronics, though, very little has run a straight course
from theory to experiment to result. Theories can languish for years waiting
for tools precise enough to test them. In fact, chemists first proposed the
idea of molecular electronics in the mid-1970s, but another 20 years would
pass before anyone could begin to put it into practice. Lately, though,
experimental results have begun to leapfrog the ability of theorists to
explain them.
One puzzle is the lack of consistency in measuring experimental results,
from lab to lab and even from experiment to experiment. Alex Bratkovsky, a
theoretical physicist and native of Moscow who joined HP in 1996, says he
was one of the first to realize that a molecule's orientation between metal
electrodes is critical to understanding its switching properties. "The
current depends tremendously on how the molecule connects with the
substrate," Bratkovsky says. "The signal may go away, then come back,
depending on the position of the molecule. We disregarded that fact for
quite a while." Since controlling the orientation of the molecule is still
beyond current experimental tools, results vary widely from lab to lab, and
scientists need to judge in many instances whether differences between their
results have real meaning or can be explained by effects still outside of
experimental control.
To understand the switching phenomenon, the HP researchers are studying a
range of new molecules that might be controlled more easily than rotaxane,
Bratkovsky says. Some of these are already being designed, but progress is
slow. It can take more than two years to design, simulate, synthesize, and
finally test a molecule for its electronic properties-after which
researchers may find themselves beginning all over again.
Across the hallway from Bratkovsky, Duncan Stewart, an experimental
physicist recently hired by Williams's lab, spent more than six months on a
contrarian experiment to help investigate why some molecules can act as
molecular switches, changing their conductivity in response to an applied
voltage. Instead of designer molecules like rotaxane, Stewart used a simple
hydrocarbon molecule consisting of a chain of 18 carbons surrounded by
hydrogen atoms. Stewart calls it the "Plain Jane of the molecular world."
It's stable, inert, and theoretically should have no interesting electronic
properties. But it switched anyway.
"I have heaps of data, and the story is that the data do not fit any model,
or any existing theory. So even in the simplest case, we don't understand
how electrons are traveling through a molecule," he says. "At times it's
extremely frustrating. You have to be very pigheaded, beat your head against
a wall for six months, and eventually a single brick budges, and eventually
the whole wall crumbles and you see another wall."
If the materials studied by these researchers seem baffling and
unpredictable, the machinery they use is even more so. Progress in molecular
electronics is often at the mercy of unpredictable glitches in the
experimental equipment. This is, after all, laboratory science and not
engineering.
Tan Ha, a native of Vietnam, is in charge of the equipment used in the lab's
clean room. Two or three times a day he dons a clean-room suit and goes into
the room to test, adjust, and modify equipment for what are in many cases
first-of-a-kind experiments. We suit up. "Now we're ready for chemical
warfare," he says. The mask over his face makes it difficult to judge
whether he is joking.
Once inside we make a beeline for a machine called a chemical vapor
deposition reactor. It looks like a big steel cylinder on its side, encased
in glass. "I have a special relationship with this machine," he says, and
touches the glass with a gloved hand.
This type of reactor is standard fare in semiconductor fabrication
facilities, but Ha has modified the machine to perform the ultraprecise
experiments required by Ted Kamins, a member of Williams's group since 1995.
Kamins has worked for years on the ultimate dream of nano research: making
devices "grow" in desired structures rather than building them piece by
piece. His goal is to grow the nanowires required by molecular electronics,
as an alternative to using nano imprint lithography. So far, Kamins has
synthesized wires as small as 10 nanometers in diameter by exposing
"nanoparticles" of various materials to a mixture of gases in the deposition
reactor. In the ensuing reaction, long chains of silicon grow up around the
particles, producing what looks under the electron microscope like a forest
of needles.
Growing the wires required for molecular electronics is exciting stuff, but
Kamins's particular experiments almost didn't happen. Ha tells me that he
spent over a year of his life trying to make the machine work. "Every time
we ran an experiment, contamination would destroy the process," he says. It
wasn't that the machine was broken; it's just that no one had ever needed to
do the experiments that Kamins wanted to do. "It got to be a spiritual
agenda for me," says Ha. "Ted was frustrated. So was I. I'd be in here on my
knees all day long, modifying things screw by screw. I'd go to bed at night
and close my eyes and see the plumbing diagram on my eyelids. It turned out
to be a problem in the exhaust system. I went home and told my wife, 'That's
it; I am a proven equipment engineer.' That's how happy I was."
Much to Duncan Stewart's disappointment, Williams asked him to publish his
results with the hydrocarbon molecule after six months and concentrate on
other work. Yet Williams encouraged Ha to keep working on his knees and
dreaming about plumbing diagrams for a year, for experiments that Williams
estimates are at least six years from fruition and may never yield a
practical result. In a sea of competing theories and possibilities, and with
the budget pressures he complains about with some regularity, how does he
decide?
"It's a matter of experience," Williams says. "I've been down many blind
alleys many times in my career. They're so enticing. You can get into these
things and think, okay, just one more step, just one more step. Other things
feel like they are in the right direction, and I can see where we're going."
In other words, he has learned to trust his intuition, because it's all he
has. "I've been through the cycle many times."
Williams's longest commitment to any idea in molecular electronics is to the
crossbar architecture. But he admits that even this idea might be a blind
alley. Will it ever be possible, for example, to cleanly trap molecules at
the junction of two wires with complete confidence in their orientation?
Then there's the practical problem of gain, or turning a weak electrical
input into a strong output; this is a critical capability needed both to
carry out logic operations and to amplify the tiny currents crossing the
molecular switches so that conventional silicon systems can detect them. And
it's a problem with no demonstrated solution.
"Stan is a smart guy, God bless him, and if anyone can solve these things,
it's going to be his team," says James Tour, a Rice University chemist who
is working on a competing approach to molecular computing. "But he's got a
tough problem. At every crosspoint the molecules need to be stable. Then
they need to interface with all the wires coming out. There's an enormous
cost to that. They have a steep hill to climb."
"It's certainly possible that we are wrong," admits Williams. Then he shakes
his head and stops being humble for a brief moment.
"I don't think so," he says. "I think we've picked the winner, something
that will allow this thing we call Moore's Law to continue on for another 50
years. I used to think it was impossible. Now I think it's inevitable."





From oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au  Thu Feb  5 05:51:34 2004
From: oregan.emlyn at healthsolve.com.au (Emlyn O'regan)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:21:34 +1030
Subject: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad
Message-ID: <7A2B25F8EB070940996FA543A70A217B017869DF@adlexsv02.protech.com.au>

I think it's a laudable goal to save relics as monuments from the golden age
of space development. It can be used to remind people that great things can
be accomplished, and as a motivator for future work. When we only
monumentalise non-tech things, we end up with a feeling that technology is
fleeting and doesn't survive the test of time. So we value it less. If we
can leave reminders of the truly great achievements, maybe that perception
can change, and people can remember that technology makes the most vital
difference in the ongoing human struggle.

Emlyn

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Adrian Tymes [mailto:wingcat at pacbell.net]
> Sent: Thursday, 5 February 2004 2:04 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Help save the Apollo launch pad
> 
> 
> --- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Wednesday may well be the last make-or-break day to
> > rescue this
> > instantly-recognizable historic structure from final
> > destruction.  
> > They start using cutting torches within the next day
> > or so.
> 
> I am reminded of a science fiction race of fly-like
> creatures, that was psychologically unable to dispose
> of anything.  Be it the cocoon they emerged from or a
> stain from yesterday's meal...any reminder of the past
> was sacred and inviolable.
> 
> They were part of the game Cosmic Encounters.  Their
> special power was that, when they moved onto a planet,
> everyone else had to leave, and stay off until the
> planet was sterilized.  No one else could abide the
> sheer amount of trash.  How these creatures spared the
> resources to get off their planet in the first place
> was one of the great mysteries.
> 
> Let the metal live on in things that will be used.  We
> know that metal does not have feelings, but to those
> who are unsure, ask: what if you had once been a part
> of the space program, a valiant symbol of work as well
> as useful in building and launching the rockets...and
> then some administrators decreed that henceforth, you
> would only be a symbol, standing inert and useless
> where you were so that others could look on you and
> wail about the good old days instead of following up
> on the work you helped start?  With space in your
> "blood" like that, would you not prefer to be recycled
> into another launch tower, or even another rocket?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 16:29:52 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 08:29:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: Successful filter avoidance
Message-ID: <20040205162952.93967.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>

I received the following email in my mail box, demonstrably from
someone who wants me to give my Citibank information to them for fraud
purposes, but dumb enough to think this poor penmanship will add any
credibility to the scam:

"_Dear_ Citicards Card_holders,

_This leter was sent_ by t_he Citicards sevrers to
veerify _your_ E_Mail addres.
You mmust colepmte this pcsores by clicking on_the_link
_below_ and enntering in the smal winndow your CITIBANK
Atm_ full card-nummber and Card Pin that _you use in ATM.
That is done - for_your pctroetion -Y- because some of_our
_members_ no lgoner have access to their email adrdeesss
and we must verify it.

http://citi.com:%55%74%6d7%75%72@%69%6b5%6c%660%64%61%64%2e%64%61%2e%72%75/%3f%42%67%670%4b%4d
 
To veerify your e_mail address and accees your _Citibank
account, clic on_the_link _below_.

hjFa4GrBotL3RXCHRdGLG4 "


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Feb  5 16:53:12 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 09:53:12 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [EWAR] Privacy on Yahoo
Message-ID: <402274F8.33861BAE@mindspring.com>

-----Original Message-----

From: Mike Lorrey 

Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 5:19 AM

To: extro-freedom at yahoogroups.com

Subject: [extro-freedom] ATTN: Privacy on Yahoo

Yahoo is now using something called "Web Beacons" to track Yahoo Group
users around the net and see what you're doing and where you are going -
similar to cookies. Take a look at their updated privacy statement:
http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy/us/pixels/details.html

About half-way down the page, in the section "Outside the Yahoo! Network",
you'll see a little "click here" link that will let you "opt-out" of their new
method of snooping. I strongly recommend that you do this.

Once you have clicked that link, you are opted out. Notice the "Success"
message the top the next page. You will have to do this with each browser you
use, because it does not opt the user out, only the browser.

Be careful because on that page there is a "Cancel Opt-out" button that, if
clicked, will *undo* the opt-out. Feel free to forward this to other groups.


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 21:21:01 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:21:01 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
Message-ID: <191690-220042452121165@M2W050.mail2web.com>

Can anyone answer this?

A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the mountain next to his hut.
He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to the top and arrives at
the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He spends the night near
the top of the mountain and descends along the same path the next day,
leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the afternoon.  Question: 
Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the exact same time on the
two days?  Prove your answer. 

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From twodeel at jornada.org  Thu Feb  5 21:36:09 2004
From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:36:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <191690-220042452121165@M2W050.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402051334490.2335-100000@hplx.net>

On Thu, 5 Feb 2004, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote:

> A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the mountain next to his
> hut. He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to the top and
> arrives at the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He spends the
> night near the top of the mountain and descends along the same path the
> next day, leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the afternoon.  
> Question:  Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the exact
> same time on the two days?  Prove your answer.

Well, if you imagine that the two journeys are superimposed on each other, 
with Monk A starting up the mountain and Monk B starting down the mountain 
at the same time, there must come a point where they would pass each other 
-- that seems like the point at which the monk would be in the same place 
at the same time on both days.



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 21:46:46 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:46:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] ANTHRO: Kenniwick Man belongs to science
Message-ID: <20040205214646.21480.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/AAFB80F54839DD2D88256E300069CF95/$file/0235994.pdf

In another decision by the 9th circuit court certain to draw
controversy from the left (for a change), Kenniwick Man, a skeleton
dating back more than 9,000 years found in Washington State, which
posesses characteristics common to the caucasian Ainu tribe, the
aboriginal people of Japan, has been ruled to have no evidence that he
is tied in any way to any existing native American tribe. Therefore he
belongs  to science.

This should be hailed as a victory of science over superstition, rather
than focusing on the divisive issue of tenancy in North America, since
Kenniwick Man predates the tenancy of the modern Indian's ancestors, he
raises political questions in this area.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Feb  5 21:51:53 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 13:51:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <191690-220042452121165@M2W050.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040205215153.93404.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "natashavita at earthlink.net"
<natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Can anyone answer this?
> 
> A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the
> mountain next to his hut.
> He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to
> the top and arrives at
> the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He
> spends the night near
> the top of the mountain and descends along the same
> path the next day,
> leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the
> afternoon.  Question: 
> Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the
> exact same time on the
> two days?  Prove your answer. 

Yes, if it is the exact same path.  Pick any point in
time (relative to the day) along the ascent/descent.
Exactly one of these three things will be true:

1. At that time, the descending monk has not yet
reached the point where he had ascended to at that
time yesterday.

2. At that time, the descending monk is at the point
where he had ascended to at that time yesterday.

3. At that time, the descending monk has passed the
point where he had ascended to at that time yesterday.

In case 1, pick a later time.  In case 3, pick an
earlier time.  Either way, you'll eventually reach
case 2 - and since you can get to that point, it must
exist.

Now, the real question is, why do you wish to know?


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb  5 22:04:42 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:04:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <191690-220042452121165@M2W050.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040205220442.45395.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "natashavita at earthlink.net" <natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Can anyone answer this?
> 
> A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the mountain next to
> his hut.
> He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to the top and arrives
> at
> the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He spends the night
> near
> the top of the mountain and descends along the same path the next
> day,
> leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the afternoon. 
> Question: 
> Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the exact same time
> on the
> two days?  Prove your answer. 

Well, since he is taking the same time going up as down, then we say,
for example, that dawn is at 6 am, and late afternoon is 4 pm. The
halfway point occurs at 11 am. Because of the identical times going up
and down, then we can't say that gravity will make it easier for him to
come down than go up. A monk, being a careful, methodical individual,
takes his time with everything, since the journey is as important as
the destination, every step in a journey is of equal value, etc etc
etc.

If the mountain trail is 10 miles long, and he takes 10 hours to travel
this distance, then he is plodding along at 1 mph each way. reaching
the halfway point, the 5 mile marker at 11 am.

This only holds true if there is one path up and down the mountain, and
if he travels straight from point A to B and back, not taking any side
routes or walking past the destination and backtracking.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 22:59:07 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 17:59:07 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
Message-ID: <119420-2200424522597832@M2W046.mail2web.com>


>From: Adrian Tymes 

>Now, the real question is, why do you wish to know?
______________________________

It's a quiz question I had for a class :-)  I figured that it would take
less time to come down the hill because going up the hill the Monk would
tire, and coming down, he would be exhilarated.

But, if the Monk was drinking the morning he comes down the hill, he could
have ended up anywhere and taken twice as long.

Since most monks tend to be fat, going up the hill would be tough, and
coming down would be even faster.

I can't prove this though. :-(


Natasha

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mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From paulgrant999 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 22:55:02 2004
From: paulgrant999 at hotmail.com (Paul Grant)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 14:55:02 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <20040205215153.93404.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000201c3ec3b$178dcb20$5a01a8c0@SIGMA7PG>

Wow, nice answer :)
I like the swing point thang you did :)[reaching equilibrium] :)



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian
Tymes
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 1:52 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Puzzle - Short Tale


--- "natashavita at earthlink.net"
<natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Can anyone answer this?
> 
> A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the
> mountain next to his hut.
> He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to
> the top and arrives at
> the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He
> spends the night near
> the top of the mountain and descends along the same
> path the next day,
> leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the
> afternoon.  Question:
> Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the
> exact same time on the
> two days?  Prove your answer. 

Yes, if it is the exact same path.  Pick any point in
time (relative to the day) along the ascent/descent.
Exactly one of these three things will be true:

1. At that time, the descending monk has not yet
reached the point where he had ascended to at that
time yesterday.

2. At that time, the descending monk is at the point
where he had ascended to at that time yesterday.

3. At that time, the descending monk has passed the
point where he had ascended to at that time yesterday.

In case 1, pick a later time.  In case 3, pick an
earlier time.  Either way, you'll eventually reach
case 2 - and since you can get to that point, it must
exist.

Now, the real question is, why do you wish to know?
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat




From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  5 22:53:11 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:53:11 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ANTHRO: Kenniwick Man belongs to science
References: <20040205214646.21480.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE32fRodEF3ve0004bda0@hotmail.com>

woohoo!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: <extropy-chat at extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 3:46 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] ANTHRO: Kenniwick Man belongs to science


>
http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/AAFB80F54839DD2D88256E300069CF95/$file/0235994.pdf
>
> In another decision by the 9th circuit court certain to draw
> controversy from the left (for a change), Kenniwick Man, a skeleton
> dating back more than 9,000 years found in Washington State, which
> posesses characteristics common to the caucasian Ainu tribe, the
> aboriginal people of Japan, has been ruled to have no evidence that he
> is tied in any way to any existing native American tribe. Therefore he
> belongs  to science.
>
> This should be hailed as a victory of science over superstition, rather
> than focusing on the divisive issue of tenancy in North America, since
> Kenniwick Man predates the tenancy of the modern Indian's ancestors, he
> raises political questions in this area.
>
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  5 23:20:28 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:20:28 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Giving robots a human face ! 
Message-ID: <269620-22004245232028379@M2W081.mail2web.com>

Forget Janet Jackson being too real in real time or TIVo, as the robot
industry is concerned about revealing too much of a human thing - the face.

Borg builders debate benefits of machines looking too real
Tuesday, February 3, 2004 Posted: 11:57 AM EST (1657 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/02/02/social.robots.ap/index.html

"The fact is, I will share much more evolutionary history, and hence, brain
circuitry and behavior, with my cat than I ever will with a machine
intelligence," he said. "The AIs we will be inventing soon will almost
certainly be the first true alien intelligences humans will meet." (Will
Wright, Sims Video Games)

Hu?  

Natasha

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mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From nanowave at shaw.ca  Thu Feb  5 23:44:19 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:44:19 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] RTR-N: What is this?
References: <20040205162952.93967.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000401c3ec41$f9748be0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

In the course of our individual online research sessions, I presume that
many transhumanists come across an occasional document or website that (to
them) stands head and shoulders above the others as singularly illuminating.
I would like to propose a new (beta) power law/rating system to facilitate
the collection and ranking of such "gems" in one specific location. A sort
of post-of-the month on steroids.

While I haven't entirely worked out the details, it would involve having
posters preface their subject headers with an RTR (Required Transhumanist
Reading) score between 1 and 3 (3 being highest) if they think they have
something unusually illuminating to share with their fellow transhumanists.
If you respond to an RTR post, you are invited to offer your own RTR score -
including RTR-0 if you think the information has little or no transhumanist
significance.

I will personally read every RTR post and every RTR post reply, and then
attempt tp tabulate this information into something intelligent. To start
the ball rolling, I will now send a second RTR post with a link to
information that actually inspired this idea in the first place.

Russell Evermore
nanowave at shaw.ca



From nanowave at shaw.ca  Thu Feb  5 23:48:44 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 15:48:44 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] RTR-3: vMemes at War
References: <000201c3ec3b$178dcb20$5a01a8c0@SIGMA7PG>
Message-ID: <000b01c3ec42$978cf560$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

The lines are being drawn in the sand. The vMemes are at war.What are we to
make of this? How have we arrived at this point? What is the integral
response? This paper is a preliminary and tentative examination of the
issues ...

http://www.swin.edu.au/afi/Harris%20-%20Vmemes%20at%20War.pdf

Russell Evermore
nanowave at shaw.ca



From gcoulter at ubishops.ca  Fri Feb  6 00:24:36 2004
From: gcoulter at ubishops.ca (Gerry Coulter)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:24:36 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] New Theory Journal -- Baudrillard
Message-ID: <40229874.4352.1E64903@localhost>

New Theory Journal

International Journal of Baudrillard Studies (On The Internet)

www.ubishops.ca/baudrillardstudies/

Gerry


Dr. B. Gerry Coulter        819-822-9600 ext 2570
Associate Professor
Chair, Department of Sociology and Anthropology
Box 83 Bishop's University Lennoxville QC J1M 1Z7
Fax: 819-822-9661 (Attn: Dr. Coulter)
gcoulter at ubishops.ca


From thespike at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 00:27:45 2004
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:27:45 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
Message-ID: <41200425602745859@earthlink.net>

> [Original Message]
> From: natashavita at earthlink.net <natashavita at earthlink.net>
 > Date: 2/5/2004 5:06:47 PM

> I figured that it would take
> less time to come down the hill because going up the hill the Monk would
> tire, and coming down, he would be exhilarated.
> 
> But, if the Monk was drinking the morning he comes down the hill, he could
> have ended up anywhere and taken twice as long.
> 
> Since most monks tend to be fat, going up the hill would be tough, and
> coming down would be even faster.

Doesn't matter, as long as he doesn't stray from the track. He can take a
fast train trip to the top and trudge down alongside the train-line all the
way, or vice versa, as long as he starts at the same time each day (or,
alternatively, ends up at the same time, either one).

Damien Broderick





From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 00:50:17 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:50:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The new face of education...
Message-ID: <20040206005017.92162.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>

http://nh.gov/governor/state%20of%20state%20final.ppt

Go to slide 12....

THIS is how education should be.... ;)

http://nh.gov/governor/state_address04.html

This is also Governor Benson's State of the State Address with its
accompanying Power Point Presentations, which demonstrates that Power
Point can be very communicative, provided the person producing it knows
how to communicate.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From paulgrant999 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  6 00:58:46 2004
From: paulgrant999 at hotmail.com (Paul Grant)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:58:46 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <000201c3ec3b$178dcb20$5a01a8c0@SIGMA7PG>
Message-ID: <000001c3ec4c$64a76ef0$5a01a8c0@SIGMA7PG>

Actually, I'm sort of out of it;
but, if its an analogue of Newtons
derivation of roots, then sensitivity
analysis/chaos theory has some remarkably
interesting results as it relates to it.

omard-out
sorry, out of it.


-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Paul Grant
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:55 PM
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Puzzle - Short Tale


Wow, nice answer :)
I like the swing point thang you did :)[reaching equilibrium] :)



-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian
Tymes
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 1:52 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Puzzle - Short Tale


--- "natashavita at earthlink.net"
<natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Can anyone answer this?
> 
> A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the
> mountain next to his hut.
> He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to
> the top and arrives at
> the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He
> spends the night near
> the top of the mountain and descends along the same
> path the next day,
> leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the
> afternoon.  Question:
> Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the
> exact same time on the
> two days?  Prove your answer.

Yes, if it is the exact same path.  Pick any point in
time (relative to the day) along the ascent/descent.
Exactly one of these three things will be true:

1. At that time, the descending monk has not yet
reached the point where he had ascended to at that
time yesterday.

2. At that time, the descending monk is at the point
where he had ascended to at that time yesterday.

3. At that time, the descending monk has passed the
point where he had ascended to at that time yesterday.

In case 1, pick a later time.  In case 3, pick an
earlier time.  Either way, you'll eventually reach
case 2 - and since you can get to that point, it must
exist.

Now, the real question is, why do you wish to know?
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 00:55:47 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 16:55:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Giving robots a human face ! 
In-Reply-To: <269620-22004245232028379@M2W081.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040206005547.52013.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "natashavita at earthlink.net" <natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Forget Janet Jackson being too real in real time or TIVo, as the
> robot
> industry is concerned about revealing too much of a human thing - the
> face.

You mean Janet isn't a robot? I thought she was a fembot from an Austin
Powers movie... ;)

REALLY funny political cartoon today in the paper:

Two New England footbal fans sitting on the couch watching the halftime
show. The first one cries out:
"Hey! Janet Jackson's nipple just popped out on stage."
The other says, "Great, six more weeks of winter... "

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb  6 02:53:55 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 18:53:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <119420-2200424522597832@M2W046.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040206025355.37428.qmail@web80410.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "natashavita at earthlink.net"
<natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Since most monks tend to be fat, going up the hill
> would be tough, and
> coming down would be even faster.
> 
> I can't prove this though. :-(

Keyword: "most".  I rely on that as a trigger,
remembering that in many cases, there are or can exist
exceptions to the dominant rule.  This is an example:
there can be (are, in fact) thin monks, so making a
rule system to take advantage of "all monks are fat"
will not be logically consistent, and can run into
error in practice.  (The odds that it does run into
error depend on the likelihood of encountering a thin
monk, and of thinness mattering in a way someone might
directly or indirectly care about.  Sometimes, errors
of this nature produce only academic effects; everyone
acts as if the rule is true because no one has yet
cared about the artifacts that disjunction creates.)

It fits into an emotional mnemonic I think a number of
this list's members can grok: a codification of
rebellion against authority.  One of the common errors
of commonly-termed "faceless" systems, which aim for
simplicity and efficiency by treating everyone the
same, stems from what happens when individuals rise up
and express the ways in which they differ from the
stereotypes.

For instance, say one set up a business around weaving
extra-large robes for monks.  All monks are fat,
right?  So consider what happens when the business
gets an order from certain physically fit Shaolin
monks...who then invoke the customer service (for
anyone commonly referred to by others as a monk)
guarantee, forcing the business to set up a new
production facility to weave slender robes.  But to
prove they're not bad guys, the Shaolin order suggests
a certain village they just happen to have been trying
to bring industry to, which has a number of talented
weavers and much of the necessary infrastructure...


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Feb  6 03:01:48 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 19:01:48 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <20040205220442.45395.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006201c3ec5d$900116d0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


 
> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" <natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Can anyone answer this?
> > 
> > A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the mountain next to
> > his hut.
> > He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to the top 
> and arrives
> > at
> > the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He spends the night
> > near
> > the top of the mountain and descends along the same path the next
> > day,
> > leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the afternoon. 
> > Question: 
> > Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the exact same time
> > on the
> > two days?  Prove your answer. 

This kind of problem is proven using a simple
graph.  On the vertical axis, plot altitude, on the
horizontal axis plot time on the first day.  The
line goes from lower left to upper right.  Now
superimpose the altitude vs time on the second
day, which goes from top left to bottom right.
Clearly those two lines hafta cross somewhere,
and thats your solution.  It also works if you
plot distance from the hut on the horizontal.

spike



From thespike at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 03:59:19 2004
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:59:19 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] it's a wonderful town...
Message-ID: <41200425635919562@earthlink.net>

Melbourne ranked world's top city

[and not just by Melburnians]
 
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/06/1075854028808.html

Damien Broderick

www.thespike.us





From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Feb  6 04:05:14 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 20:05:14 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <191690-220042452121165@M2W050.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <007101c3ec66$6c980fb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

 
> Can anyone answer this?
> 
> A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the mountain 
> next to his hut...  Prove your answer... Natasha

*Thank* *You* *Natasha* for that cool puzzle.  Since
it is fair game to post math puzzles, do indulge me
with one that has been driving me nuts for days, a
slap-in-the-face evidence that I was *smarter* when
I was a 19 yr old divinity student than I am now, a
43 yr old extropian.

The book of John describes the apostles fishing all
night and coming up empty.  Jesus or Hoerkheimer (unclear
which one) showed up and told them to cast the net again.
Chapter 21 verse 11 readeth:  "Simon Peter went up, and
drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and
fifty three: and for all there were many, yet was not the
net broken..."

Matthew 12:36 declareth "...every idle word that men 
shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the 
day of judgement."

That day of judgement will be one looooong afternoon,
my friends, but clearly the bible contains *no idle 
words* so why did god specifically tell us that there
were 153 fish in that net?  What is special about 153?

I found an old notebook in which I used to do mathematical
puzzles.  I had found in a commentary that 153 is the smallest
number that is equal to the sum of the cubes of its digits.
I do vaguely recall doing the calcs that resulted from my
musing "What are the other numbers that are the sum of
the cubes of their digits?"

At the time I had a counterfeit Apple, but no printer,
(and no sense of guilt for the theft of Apple's 
intellectual property) so if I calculated something, I 
had to write it down in a notebook.  Usually I also wrote 
down the algorithm but this time I wrote only the damn answers
and Im going crazy trying to figure out how I figured
this out 24 yrs ago with a 3.2 megahertz computer.  Yes
young people, they really did go that slow back then.  

I wrote a couple pages of cryptic notes and figures,
interspersed with the numbers 370, 371 and 407.  These
are numbers that are the sum of their cubes.

A few pages over I wrote "numbers equal to the 4th power
of their digits:  1634, 8208, 9474."

Later a table:

5th power:  4150, 4151, 54748, 92727, 93084, 194979.

6th:  548834

7th:  1741725, 4210818, 9800817, 9926315, 14459929.

8th:  24678050, 24678051, 88593477

I neglected to write down the algorithm!  Question please, 
before I go crazy, HOW COULD I have found those solutions?
I do vaguely recall deriving the code, but now Im at a
complete loss for how.  OH NO I've grown stuuuupiiiiid!  {8-[  

Help me Obi wan Extropi, you're my only hope.  

spike 





  



From thespike at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  6 04:37:23 2004
From: thespike at earthlink.net (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 22:37:23 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] another dreadful cloning experiment goes horribly
	wrong
Message-ID: <41200425643723296@earthlink.net>

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8596810%255E27
03,00.html

[it's okay when god does it]





From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Feb  6 05:12:19 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:12:19 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] another dreadful cloning experiment goes
	horriblywrong
In-Reply-To: <41200425643723296@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000201c3ec6f$cbe78aa0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Damien Broderick

> Subject: [extropy-chat] another dreadful cloning experiment 
> goes horriblywrong
> 
> 
> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,
> 8596810%255E27
> 03,00.html
> 
> [it's okay when god does it]

I would sooooo like to have a second brain.  Granted
it would pose some major problems finding a motorcycle
helmet.  In any case, lets hope this little girl
makes it.  spike



From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Feb  6 05:56:52 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 21:56:52 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: Successful filter avoidance
In-Reply-To: <20040205162952.93967.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000301c3ec76$04db8fe0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Mike Lorrey
> Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: Successful filter avoidance
> 
> 
> I received the following email in my mail box... this poor 
> penmanship will add any credibility to the scam:
> 
> "_Dear_ Citicards Card_holders,
> 
> _This leter was sent_ by t_he Citicards sevrers to
> veerify _your_ E_Mail addres...

I get so many spams that have at least half the
words intentionally misspelled, presumably to
get past the spam filters which look for key
words.  Looks like we could now bust that technique
by filtering any email message with over a quarter
of the words not found in the dictionary.  It would
ignore the 2 and 3 letter words in the count.
Wouldn't that work?  Has anyone tried that
scheme?  Granted some of the legitimate emails
from my antique motorcycle group would be
filtered, for among that set are a number of
individuals who fell a few points shy of 
800 on the old verbal SATs.  {8^D

spike





From alito at organicrobot.com  Fri Feb  6 06:28:37 2004
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:28:37 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <191690-220042452121165@M2W050.mail2web.com>
References: <191690-220042452121165@M2W050.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <1076048917.32190.411.camel@alito.homeip.net>

On Fri, 2004-02-06 at 07:21, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote:
> Can anyone answer this?
> 
> A monk wakes one morning and decides to climb the mountain next to his hut.
> He sets out right after dawn, follows the path to the top and arrives at
> the top of the mountain in the late afternoon.  He spends the night near
> the top of the mountain and descends along the same path the next day,
> leaving again right after dawn and arriving in the afternoon.  Question: 
> Is there a spot on the path where the monk is at the exact same time on the
> two days?  Prove your answer. 

Yes, he is at exactly the same time on top of the mountain at 24:00:00
of the first day, and 00:00:00 of the second day
alejandro




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb  6 07:08:12 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2004 23:08:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <007101c3ec66$6c980fb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040206070812.32952.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I neglected to write down the algorithm!  Question
> please, 
> before I go crazy, HOW COULD I have found those
> solutions?
> I do vaguely recall deriving the code, but now Im at
> a
> complete loss for how.  OH NO I've grown
> stuuuupiiiiid!  {8-[  

Raw intelligence and special techniques are not one
and the same.  You had a technique that may have taken
someone else years, even decades to acquire; it is no
poor measure that, having forgotten it, you can not
instantly re-invent it again.  Inspirations are at
least a little random.


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Feb  6 12:13:57 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 04:13:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Ok, this is going to seem a little off the scope -- but
I'm frustrated as to why we can't seem to get updates
out of JPL on a frequency greater than 12-24 hours.

We have two functional rovers on the ground.
We have two (three if you include the European mission)
orbiters going around the planet.  We have a Deep space
network that is based all around the globe.

Yes I understand that the time of light delay from
the Earth to Mars may be nine or more minutes --
but it would appear that one has the resources
to make this a minor problem.

Why can these people not make it happen?

(I am open to technical explanations that have not
thus far been presented -- I am also open to non
technical explanations.)

I would offer this -- if we spend $410 million
per orbiter to get them to Mars we could at least
spend $100K/yr for reporter(s) who are going
to make it their 24/7 duty to make sure the
information is up to date.

R.




From alito at organicrobot.com  Fri Feb  6 14:10:25 2004
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 00:10:25 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <007101c3ec66$6c980fb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <007101c3ec66$6c980fb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <1076076625.32527.445.camel@alito.homeip.net>

On Fri, 2004-02-06 at 14:05, Spike wrote:
> At the time I had a counterfeit Apple, but no printer,
> (and no sense of guilt for the theft of Apple's 
> intellectual property) so if I calculated something, I 
> had to write it down in a notebook.  Usually I also wrote 
> down the algorithm but this time I wrote only the damn answers
> and Im going crazy trying to figure out how I figured
> this out 24 yrs ago with a 3.2 megahertz computer.  Yes
> young people, they really did go that slow back then.  
> 
> I wrote a couple pages of cryptic notes and figures,
> interspersed with the numbers 370, 371 and 407.  These
> are numbers that are the sum of their cubes.
> 
> A few pages over I wrote "numbers equal to the 4th power
> of their digits:  1634, 8208, 9474."
> 
> Later a table:
> 
> 5th power:  4150, 4151, 54748, 92727, 93084, 194979.
> 
> 6th:  548834
> 
> 7th:  1741725, 4210818, 9800817, 9926315, 14459929.
> 
> 8th:  24678050, 24678051, 88593477
> 
> I neglected to write down the algorithm!  Question please, 
> before I go crazy, HOW COULD I have found those solutions?
> I do vaguely recall deriving the code, but now Im at a
> complete loss for how.  OH NO I've grown stuuuupiiiiid!  {8-[  
> 
You probably stored partial results for each number you calculated,
since 548834 is just the result for 48834 plus the result for 5.  On
that old machine you probably would have run out of memory pretty
quickly but you could have most likely stored all three digit numbers,
and then worked with those.  Your 8 digit numbers could have been done
in a 3x3x2 combination which would be 100 million calculations at two
additions each plus a comparison.  Each addition and comparison could
have taken a while (you'd had have to have written your own adding
algorithm to add 32 bit numbers) so give it 20 cycles (would that have
been enough?), which puts total at 6 billion cycles, or a bit over half
an hour. 
If you could have stored all 4 digit numbers (but that would take 40k),
it would have cut down a third of the steps (one less addition to get to
8 digit).  Does that sound about right or was it much faster?
alejandro






From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb  6 15:46:02 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:46:02 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <00be01c3ecc8$53b21560$ddcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 06, 2004 7:13 AM Robert J. Bradbury
bradbury at aeiveos.com wrote:
> Ok, this is going to seem a little off the scope -- but
> I'm frustrated as to why we can't seem to get updates
> out of JPL on a frequency greater than 12-24 hours.

I agree.  I've been checking their site for updates a few times a day,
and it seems they're on a once-a-day update schedule.  You'd think
they'd be uploading many photos and lots of data each day.  Yes, writing
a press release might take more effort, but some of the photos would
speak for themselves.  Even their news releases aren't like high quality
writing anyhow, so it wouldn't take that much time.

> We have two functional rovers on the ground.
> We have two (three if you include the
> European mission) orbiters going around
> the planet.  We have a Deep space
> network that is based all around the globe.

You can't really blame JPL for the Mars Express orbiter.  Go to the ESA
web site for that.:)

> Yes I understand that the time of light delay from
> the Earth to Mars may be nine or more minutes --
> but it would appear that one has the resources
> to make this a minor problem.
>
> Why can these people not make it happen?
>
> (I am open to technical explanations that have not
> thus far been presented -- I am also open to non
> technical explanations.)

Because it takes time for a person or people to analyze the stuff, write
it up, and make it presentable for public consumption.

> I would offer this -- if we spend $410 million
> per orbiter to get them to Mars we could at least
> spend $100K/yr for reporter(s) who are going
> to make it their 24/7 duty to make sure the
> information is up to date.

Well, the mission funding might not have included that in the first
place.  Whoever's writing up the news releases might be doing double
duty -- either not be the PR person for just this mission or actually
might be something like the project lead as well as the PR person.

Of course, this is like any news story.  I want a lot of information
now, but in a few months or years compendia of all the data and such
will be available.

Regards,

Dan
  See "The Hills of Rendome" at:
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/Rendome.html



From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Feb  6 15:43:40 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 07:43:40 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <001001c3ecc7$fe784dd0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> Robert J. Bradbury
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 4:14 AM
> To: Extropy Chat
> Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
> 
> Ok, this is going to seem a little off the scope -- but
> I'm frustrated as to why we can't seem to get updates
> out of JPL on a frequency greater than 12-24 hours.


There's no sex involved?

spike



From brian at posthuman.com  Fri Feb  6 17:16:49 2004
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 11:16:49 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <4023CC01.10306@posthuman.com>

I think there isn't enough data coming down daily to support more than a 
daily report at the most. The fastest data links they have are something 
like 128kb/s and only for apparently short bursts up to maybe 30 minutes?

So each day they are essentially performing either one movement of the 
rover or one set of science gathering, and then dumping some of that 
data back to Earth. In some cases they may not even be able to get back 
all the day's data for a few days if they have done a lot of imaging. 
Plus they have to be careful now not to overload the number of files in 
their flash mem because of buggy software.

I've been watching the live briefings on satellite (which now apparently 
only happen 3 times a week) and it really only takes them about 20 
minutes to run through a description of what they did the previous 
couple of days and show the data/images. Then the reporters usually run 
out of questions after about another 20 minutes. Just not a ton of meat 
there so far...
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 17:44:35 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:44:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <4023CC01.10306@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <20040206174435.97284.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Brian Atkins <brian at posthuman.com> wrote:
> I think there isn't enough data coming down daily to support more
> than a daily report at the most. The fastest data links they have are
> something like 128kb/s and only for apparently short bursts up
> to maybe 30 minutes?
> 
> So each day they are essentially performing either one movement of
> the 
> rover or one set of science gathering, and then dumping some of that 
> data back to Earth. In some cases they may not even be able to get
> back all the day's data for a few days if they have done a lot of
> imaging.
> 
> Plus they have to be careful now not to overload the number of files
> in their flash mem because of buggy software.
> 
> I've been watching the live briefings on satellite (which now
> apparently 
> only happen 3 times a week) and it really only takes them about 20 
> minutes to run through a description of what they did the previous 
> couple of days and show the data/images. Then the reporters usually
> run out of questions after about another 20 minutes. Just not a ton
of
> meat there so far...

Is this because the reporters are too ignorant to know what to ask, or
is there really that little real information amongst all the data that
comes back?

Keep in mind, that all of the 3D data that comes back gets loaded into
the simulator database, so if you've downloaded the rover simulator
app, you can download this data and drive around in your own accurate marscape.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 17:45:57 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 09:45:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] another dreadful cloning experiment goes
	horriblywrong
In-Reply-To: <000201c3ec6f$cbe78aa0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040206174557.84546.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Damien Broderick
> 
> > Subject: [extropy-chat] another dreadful cloning experiment 
> > goes horriblywrong
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,
> > 8596810%255E27
> > 03,00.html
> > 
> > [it's okay when god does it]
> 
> I would sooooo like to have a second brain.  Granted
> it would pose some major problems finding a motorcycle
> helmet.  In any case, lets hope this little girl
> makes it.  

Looked to me like a Tellurian baby...

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Feb  6 18:43:08 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:43:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <20040206174435.97284.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061021360.8012-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

Quoting Brian's observation..

> Just not a ton of meat there so far...

Ok reasonable response but there is nothing preventing the
public distribution of what meat there is.  Given the number
of people working on this how difficult would it be to have
a JPL blog and to have several people spend 5 minutes a day
entering their comments into it?  Yep, we got back 47 Megabytes
of data, yep we downloaded 6 instruction sequences, etc.

I can't be the only one who feels these are the children,
agents, avatars, etc. of humanity on a friggen different planet.
Haven't we got ads on TV asking us "Do you know where your
children are?" or something to that effect.  Where the heck
is the JPL in answering that question?

> Is this because the reporters are too ignorant to know what to ask, or
> is there really that little real information amongst all the data that
> comes back?

There is a lot of information there but most of it cannot be
processed by the public.  For example I have no clue as to
what filters are being used on the cameras to take the pictures.
I haven't even seen a good explanation as to how many cameras
there are, where they are located, etc.  (Yes I can probably go
dig in NASA files and discover this -- but so can the reporters.)

> Keep in mind, that all of the 3D data that comes back gets loaded into
> the simulator database, so if you've downloaded the rover simulator
> app, you can download this data and drive around in your own accurate marscape.

Ok Mike -- that is a useful note and I have noticed citations that there
are a lot of people that seem to be making use of this (to steer their
remote children around Mars).  But there is a big divide between what
you would like your kids to do and what they are actually doing.

I'm simply stating that I want an as real time as possible feedback
for what the heck is going on.

Robert




From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com  Fri Feb  6 18:56:56 2004
From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 10:56:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] CRN Wins Top Honors
In-Reply-To: <BAY5-F30AMdGwGMFdXS0000cab0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040206185656.71310.qmail@web41312.mail.yahoo.com>

Dear Mike and Chris,
 
    CONGRATULATIONS for your incredible efforts (and results:-) in just one year... and the world is still accelerating...
 
     Nanotechnologically yours,
 
     La vie est belle!
 
     Jose

MIKE TREDER <iph1954 at msn.com> wrote:
CRN is pleased and proud to announce that we have been designated as "Best 
Advocate" and "Best of the Best" for 2003 by Nanotechnology Now.

http://nanotech-now.com/2003-Awards/Best-of-the-Best-2003.htm

The Center for Responsible Nanotechnology was founded by Mike Treder and 
Chris Phoenix in December 2002. In our first year, we published numerous 
papers and articles, made presentations at several conferences, addressed 
the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, provided invited submissions to 
the British Royal Society and the American Council for the United Nations 
University, and energized discussion of nanotechnology policy issues.

The vision of CRN is a world in which nanotechnology is widely used for 
productive and beneficial purposes, and where malicious uses are limited by 
effective administration of the technology. Thanks to everyone who supported 
us, encouraged us, and challenged us in 2003.

Mike Treder
Executive Director
Center for Responsible Nanotechnology
http://CRNano.org


La vie est belle!

Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) 

Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online
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From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Fri Feb  6 19:31:13 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:31:13 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
Message-ID: <4023EB81.1010807@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Fri Feb 06, 2004 11:43 am Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> I'm simply stating that I want an as real time as possible feedback
> for what the heck is going on.
>

The best I can think of is to set a Google News Alert.
Go to <http://news.google.com/>
and do several Google Search News searches on something like 'mars
rover' or 'mars rover JPL news' (to make sure your search terms find the
news items that you want).
Then at the foot of the first page of results Google will offer you the
chance to set a News Alert on these search terms.
Click on that and then you can choose 'As it happens' to get instant
email alerts of any new news items for your search terms.

You will probably have to experiment a bit with different search terms
to make sure you only get emails about what you are interested in, but
it should keep you as up-to-date as possible.

BillK





From brian at posthuman.com  Fri Feb  6 20:40:10 2004
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 14:40:10 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061021360.8012-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061021360.8012-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <4023FBAA.8080000@posthuman.com>

Robert I suggest you contact the JPL PR people, since it is pretty clear 
they don't see the need for more output than they are providing. Their 
focus is clearly on filling the two main PR needs: interfacing with the 
mainstream press & interfacing with the general public through the 
website and NASA TV. Until they feel a big demand for what you want I 
don't expect them to change their ways.
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Feb  6 22:48:47 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 22:48:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<00be01c3ecc8$53b21560$ddcd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <c015kf$2qlg$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Technotranscendence <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I agree.  I've been checking their site for updates a few times a day,
> and it seems they're on a once-a-day update schedule.  You'd think
> they'd be uploading many photos and lots of data each day.  Yes, writing
> a press release might take more effort, but some of the photos would
> speak for themselves.  Even their news releases aren't like high quality
> writing anyhow, so it wouldn't take that much time.

Maybe I'm overly naive, but I assumed that the people at NASA/ESA/etc
are busy performing actual scientific work and don't waste too many
resources on feeding details to a largely desinterested and
scientifically illiterate public, where you have to start out each
time with an explanation that you are not talking about the candy
bar, and no, no humanoid aliens are going to be discovered.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb  6 23:25:07 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 18:25:07 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com><00be01c3ecc8$53b21560$ddcd5cd1@neptune>
	<c015kf$2qlg$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <004901c3ed08$7611b8a0$62cd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 06, 2004 5:48 PM Christian Weisgerber
naddy at mips.inka.de wrote:
> Maybe I'm overly naive,

No comment.:)

> but I assumed that the people at NASA/ESA/etc
> are busy performing actual scientific work

Hmm.  If you'd read the rest of my post, you'd have seen that I wrote
much the same.  E.g.:

"Because it takes time for a person or people to analyze the stuff,
write it up, and make it presentable for public consumption."

and

"Well, the mission funding might not have included that in the first
place.  Whoever's writing up the news releases might be doing double
duty -- either not be the PR person for just this mission or actually
might be something like the project lead as well as the PR person."

> and don't waste too many resources on feeding
> details to a largely desinterested and scientifically
> illiterate public, where you have to start out each
> time with an explanation that you are not talking
> about the candy bar, and no, no humanoid aliens
> are going to be discovered.

And who pays the bills for this stuff?  The "largely desinterested and
scientifically illiterate public," I believe.

Also, Robert Bradbury is the one complaining.  Now, I don't believe he's
"largely desinterested and scientifically illiterate" yet he is part of
NASA's public.  Keeping him and people like him happy might be a good
idea for NASA, but then it's a public agency funded through taxes, so
why should it care?:)

Regards,

Dan
  See "The Hills of Rendome" at:
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/Rendome.html



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Feb  6 23:43:15 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 15:43:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <004901c3ed08$7611b8a0$62cd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061530110.13222-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Ok -- there were some good suggestions related to contacting
NASA and I'm going to take that under consideration.

However if one does so one should have ones sources up
to date.  Spaceflight now seems to be doing that:
  http://spaceflightnow.com/mars/mera/status.html
It seems that it might be better than the marsrovers.jpl
site.

I'm still unhappy about the quality of technical writing
for the technically qualified -- one might simply set the
engineers free.

R.




From eliasen at mindspring.com  Fri Feb  6 23:50:22 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:50:22 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <007101c3ec66$6c980fb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <007101c3ec66$6c980fb0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <4024283E.2060707@mindspring.com>


Spike wrote:
> I found an old notebook in which I used to do mathematical
> puzzles.  I had found in a commentary that 153 is the smallest
> number that is equal to the sum of the cubes of its digits.
> I do vaguely recall doing the calcs that resulted from my
> musing "What are the other numbers that are the sum of
> the cubes of their digits?"
> 
> At the time I had a counterfeit Apple, but no printer,
> (and no sense of guilt for the theft of Apple's 
> intellectual property) so if I calculated something, I 
> had to write it down in a notebook.  Usually I also wrote 
> down the algorithm but this time I wrote only the damn answers
> and Im going crazy trying to figure out how I figured
> this out 24 yrs ago with a 3.2 megahertz computer.  Yes
> young people, they really did go that slow back then.  
> 
> I wrote a couple pages of cryptic notes and figures,
> interspersed with the numbers 370, 371 and 407.  These
> are numbers that are the sum of their cubes.
> 
> A few pages over I wrote "numbers equal to the 4th power
> of their digits:  1634, 8208, 9474."
> 
> Later a table:
> 
> 5th power:  4150, 4151, 54748, 92727, 93084, 194979.
> 
> 6th:  548834
> 
> 7th:  1741725, 4210818, 9800817, 9926315, 14459929.
> 
> 8th:  24678050, 24678051, 88593477
> 
> I neglected to write down the algorithm!  Question please, 
> before I go crazy, HOW COULD I have found those solutions?
> I do vaguely recall deriving the code, but now Im at a
> complete loss for how.  OH NO I've grown stuuuupiiiiid!  {8-[  

  Here's a quick (3-minute) algorithm written in Frink (a programming language
of my own design):

-------
p = eval[input["Enter power: "]]

n = 0
while (true)
{
    sum = 0
    for c = array[char["$n"]] //  Make array of unicode values for each char
    {
       v = c - char["0"]
       sum = sum + v^p
    }

    if sum == n
       println[n]

    n=n+1
}
-------------------

   Frink is available here:
   http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/

   The algorithm for breaking the number into its digits could have also been
done by use of div and mod operations, but this was slightly quicker.

   The algorithm, as listed above, doesn't terminate.  Finding the highest
possible bound for each power is left as an exercise for the reader, and
finding a good starting point as well.  (Zero and one are always solutions.)
But brute force works too.

-- 
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Feb  6 23:57:43 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 16:57:43 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Something to think about.... [PowerPoint is
	Evil contd]
Message-ID: <402429F7.D237FE49@mindspring.com>

Robert X. Cringely (the Real Bob at pbs.org, not the pretender at 
InfoWorld) has an IMHO excellent discussion of how PowerPoint has degraded 
our ability to listen:

>Now jump back to my columns of the last couple weeks, where we saw what 
>were bad decisions made in a facile manner that was probably lubricated 
>with a big dose of PowerPoint.
>
>So what's to be done? Well, we can't ban PowerPoint, which after all 
>exists for the very purpose of making people better informed, not worse. 
>What we can do, however, is lead by example. We can just say no to PowerPoint.
>
>I give a lot of speeches, taking my biases and bad humor on the road to 
>explain tech reality to all types of groups. And whether I am talking to 
>10 people or 3,700 (my personal best so far), I leave my notebook computer 
>behind. You see it is my belief that people can read your slides or listen 
>to what you are saying, but they can't do both things at the same time. 
>And because it is easier to read than listen if you are age 15 or older, a 
>good PowerPoint artist doesn't really have to say much at all. That's good 
>for him or her, but bad for the audience. So I make them work. I talk too 
>fast, tell too many stories, make too many bald conclusions, and generally 
>put a hurt on the audience that they simply aren't used to. I make them 
>think with me. And you know what happens? They love it. They love the 
>complete sentences. They love having not just the conclusion to work with, 
>but everything leading up to that conclusion. And because I am either so 
>over-prepared or under-prepared that the speech can go off in any 
>direction that we all find to be of interest, no two speeches are ever 
>alike. How unPowerPoint of me.
>
>My point here is not that I'm God's gift to public speaking, but that what 
>I do is PUBLIC SPEAKING, not public posturing or bustier ripping. I have 
>nothing to sell. My goal is actual communication. How quaint.
>
>But wait, there's more! I keep getting e-mail messages from people that I 
>literally can't understand. These people went to good schools and 
>presumably know how to write in complete sentences, but instead they send 
>me gibberish. This week, I called a practitioner of this gibberish, and he 
>explained it was "conversational e-mailese."
>
>What?
>
>Conversational e-mailese is a way to shout without speaking, to draw 
>attention without informing. It is no way to get chicks. But for a 
>PowerPoint, SMS, ICQ generation, I guess it will have to do. No wonder 
>we're making such bad decisions.

Full article at: http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20040205.html

Cheers,

LRC


--
Last week I called in "sick" and vamoosed to Vegas for the 2004 Consumer
Electronics Show. And suddenly it hit me: Las Vegas was created by aliens.
They landed in Area 51 and built the city as a vast experiment in human
excess. Wayne Newton? David Copperfield? Siegfried and Roy? All alien lab
technicians. It's the only answer that makes sense
                 --"Robert X. Cringely(TM)" [infoworld.com] 


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sat Feb  7 00:13:16 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 16:13:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061530110.13222-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061600130.13516-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Reviewing recent comments by Alan and Spike -- you folks had
way too much time on your hands...

Now, back on track it would seem that the JPL home page has
a much more up-to-date time log of rover progress.
See:
  http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/index.html

I'm more than happy to give Tony, Jason and Susan kudos but
they have to lose that "FirstGov" icon.

R.




From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com  Sat Feb  7 00:33:46 2004
From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 00:33:46 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061021360.8012-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <002001c3ed12$34f4ab70$0600000a@Bryan>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote:

> I can't be the only one who feels these are the children,
> agents, avatars, etc. of humanity on a friggen different planet.
> Haven't we got ads on TV asking us "Do you know where your
> children are?" or something to that effect.  Where the heck
> is the JPL in answering that question?

Robert, I think the real problem is that JPL has to tend to those other
children, namely: the press.  If they release information as it arrives,
before the official press conference and Q&A session, they run the risk of
the press grabbing hold of something and running wild with it.  I've already
seen various news sites on the web uncritically report a website claiming
JPL were altering the colours of the images to cover-up signs of life ("NASA
has been accused of altering colours..."; by a website that also featured an
extensive analysis of the "face on Mars" no less).  If they didn't do it
this way, the quality of Mars reporting the majority of people receive would
suffer, as the media reported speculation on raw data and the opinion of
engineers before they'd received official word.

BM



From naddy at mips.inka.de  Sat Feb  7 01:12:01 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 01:12:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com><00be01c3ecc8$53b21560$ddcd5cd1@neptune>
	<c015kf$2qlg$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<004901c3ed08$7611b8a0$62cd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <c01e11$2umi$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Technotranscendence <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> And who pays the bills for this stuff?  The "largely desinterested and
> scientifically illiterate public," I believe.

No.  A government agency does.  The public just pays taxes and has
preciously little control how these are allocated.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From eliasen at mindspring.com  Sat Feb  7 02:10:04 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:10:04 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061021360.8012-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402061021360.8012-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <402448FC.4000108@mindspring.com>


Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> There is a lot of information there but most of it cannot be
> processed by the public.  For example I have no clue as to
> what filters are being used on the cameras to take the pictures.
> I haven't even seen a good explanation as to how many cameras
> there are, where they are located, etc.  (Yes I can probably go
> dig in NASA files and discover this -- but so can the reporters.)

   Actually, the issue about the filters and the colors of Mars is an
interesting story.  I thought that they were altering the colors, until I did
more research.  The link below will tell you how to tell what filters were
used on any given raw picture (it's in the filename), and you can even play
around with combining the pictures yourself to make your own real-color
images, (finding appropriate images for real color is rare, because most color
separations are taken through *infrared*, green, and blue filters) or making
your own 3-D images (the NASA ones use way too much green channel which hurts
separation.)

   http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=30048

   Fascinating stuff.

-- 
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sat Feb  7 02:47:57 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 19:47:57 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Fruit fly genome music
Message-ID: <402451DD.1F9C9712@mindspring.com>

[Where is the fruit fly longevity poster? - twc]


I have a friend who's spent the last several months writing software to
play gene sequences as music. He just sent me his 7MB .wav of the fruit
fly genome. It's pretty damned cool.

I'm going to try to get him to post it somewhere that I can link to for
the list. I also think his project might be a nice featurette for FT.

Jay

-- fiction projects --
Books now: Greetings From Lake Wu - LOCUS Recommended Reading for 2003
Books soon:  Dogs in the Moonlight, Green Grow the Rushes-Oh
Shorts now: Chiaroscuro, On Spec and Realms of Fantasy
Shorts soon: Asimov's, Postscripts and Realms of Fantasy
Editing: All-Star Zeppelin Adventure Stories, Polyphony 4, TEL : Stories

-- links & contact --
http://www.sff.net/campbell-awards/authors.htm#jayl
http://www.rumormill.org/index.php?t=1257&show_all_topics=0
http://www.jlake.com/tel-stories.html
www.jlake.com | 503.806.3626 | jlake at jlake.com | jelakejr [AOL-IM]


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sat Feb  7 05:42:56 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 21:42:56 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<00be01c3ecc8$53b21560$ddcd5cd1@neptune>
	<c015kf$2qlg$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <001d01c3ed3d$3d662c40$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Getting back to Robert Bradbury's original puzzlement over why Nasa/JPL
seems a little stingy with the goods. Honestly guys, I can't believe you're
having difficulty with this one. Think meta-perspective and you will soon
begin to see how the pieces fit together.

1. The primary role of the space program is not, and never has been,
scientific exploration. When Sputnik went up, did the Americans say: "Dang
it,  those Russian scientists are sure accumulating shit loads of fine data
with regard to launching satellites!" Nope. When Kennedy made his famous
speech about going to the moon, do you suppose he was laying awake nights
wondering what the chemical compositions of moon rocks were? Hah!

But that's ok, because science was definitely onboard for the ride.

2. And you must realize that having twin robot probes crawling around on
Mars is primarily about showing the world EXACTLY WHAT A FREE  NATION (read
more free than you) IS CAPABLE OF, when it puts its formidable minds and
resources to the task. Two lonely little humminoids on opposites sides of
the Red Planet - apart, yet working together for the benefit of humankind. I
suppose that Spirit would be the one churning its wheels in the "Eastern
hemisphere" then?

3. And you've no doubt noticed that the "big science news" tends to hit the
wires at or about the same time as the "medium-shit-hitting-the-fan news"
right? Not the big-shit-hitting-the-fan news - like 911, mind you, as that
would be a total waste of good news as well as way too obvious.

So if you really want to see the "centerfolds" doled out by the handful,
then just wait around a bit for something sufficiently bad to happen and the
powers-that-be decide the hysteria balloon could use another prick. Think
"raising or lowering interest rates" if you need a cognitive parallel. Not
that I'm not criticizing any of this. It just makes good utilitarian sense.

Russell Evermore
nanowave at shaw.ca



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb  7 07:59:59 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2004 23:59:59 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <4024283E.2060707@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3ed50$62a82860$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

 
> Spike wrote:
> > I found an old notebook in which I used to do mathematical
> > puzzles.  I had found in a commentary that 153 is the smallest
...
> > 
> > 8th:  24678050, 24678051, 88593477
> > 
.
> > complete loss for how.  OH NO I've grown stuuuupiiiiid!  {8-[  
> 
>   Here's a quick (3-minute) algorithm written in Frink (a 
> programming language of my own design):...

Ja, the puzzle is that this algorithm is way too
slow to have been done on a 3.2 mhz computer.  It
would have taken months to get thru the 8th powers.

Robert wrote:

>Reviewing recent comments by Alan and Spike -- you folks had
>way too much time on your hands...

So very true.

But aint it grand?  {8^D  I just love having time for
reprehensible intellectual idleness.  {8-]  Its what
I want to do with eternity if I manage to get myself
uploaded: sit and think.  What else can a program do?

As it turns out, I rediscovered the algorithm today
and nailed the rest up thru 14:

numbers that equal the sum of the 9th power of their digits:

146511208, 
912985153, 
472335975, 
534494836

sum of the 10th powers:  4679307774

sum of 11th powers:  32164049650,
32164049651
40028394225,
42678290603,
44708635679,
49388550606,
82693916578
94204591914,

12th:  aint none!

13th:  564240140138

14th:  281164403359967

Clearly I didn't do this brute force method, computers
havent been in existence that long. 

{8^D  spike (the cheerful idler)

ps if anyone can think of an application for this
silliness, do suggest and we can apply for a
software patent together, assuming you do not
consider it a sin to patent an algorithm.  This
one is clever if I say so myself.  {8-]  s


 



From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Feb  7 12:39:31 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:39:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <c015kf$2qlg$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402060355370.1160-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<00be01c3ecc8$53b21560$ddcd5cd1@neptune>
	<c015kf$2qlg$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040207123931.GV3557@leitl.org>

On Fri, Feb 06, 2004 at 10:48:47PM +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Maybe I'm overly naive, but I assumed that the people at NASA/ESA/etc
> are busy performing actual scientific work and don't waste too many
> resources on feeding details to a largely desinterested and

You're describing a catastrophic failure of PR. I agree, the scientific
community typically are lousy reporters. Worse, they've got a bad case of
deficit agnosia.

> scientifically illiterate public, where you have to start out each

PR isn't necessarily about science. It's there to motivate the public to
continue consider science is worth funding. Travelling to distant worlds is
an aspect which is least abstract, and can be used to keep the public
excited.

Failure to provide site updates on a daily basis (not necessarily to to do
with the current state of the mission) is a PR failure.

> time with an explanation that you are not talking about the candy
> bar, and no, no humanoid aliens are going to be discovered.

Deconstructing stuff from Hollywood and elsewhere and debunking popular myths
about Mars isn't particularly difficult, and could have been part of the
mission site.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 15:29:12 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 07:29:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <001d01c3ed3d$3d662c40$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040207152912.46301.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Getting back to Robert Bradbury's original puzzlement over why
> Nasa/JPL
> seems a little stingy with the goods. Honestly guys, I can't believe
> you're
> having difficulty with this one. Think meta-perspective and you will
> soon begin to see how the pieces fit together.

Russell has a point here. I've always wondered why there are not freely
available government specs on "How to build an orbital rocket" or "How
to build a space capsule", laying out a lot of design requirements:
what capsule wall thickness is required for a given atmospheric
pressure, how much shielding against radiation and/or micrometeorites,
how much reentry shielding, etc. If that information were freely
available, then you'd have backyard tinkerers putting together
rocketships all over the country.

This result is something the PTB definitely do NOT want. Aside from the
monopoly of NASA and the oligopoly of the big aerospace companies,
you'd have to worry about rocketships falling out of the sky all over
the country, gawd knows what lives where they intend to impact rather
loudly. 

You'd also have lots of ballistic launches. What would the neighbors
think? Especially the neighbors who are career paranoiacs with their
fingers on the trigger of a fleet of ICBMs and who do not comprehend
our individualistic culture. They'd be looking at their radar screens
every day, having a nervous breakdown over whether Bubba's Backyard
Rocket is the Running Dog Amerikans launching the Big One at them...

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Sat Feb  7 15:41:25 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 10:41:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
References: <000001c3ed50$62a82860$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <Law9-OE29idLOoTVSFl00038b79@hotmail.com>

So, what is the algorithm?

BAL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 2:59 AM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Puzzle - Short Tale


> 
> > Spike wrote:
> > > I found an old notebook in which I used to do mathematical
> > > puzzles.  I had found in a commentary that 153 is the smallest
> ...
> > > 
> > > 8th:  24678050, 24678051, 88593477
> > > 
> .
> > > complete loss for how.  OH NO I've grown stuuuupiiiiid!  {8-[  
> > 
> >   Here's a quick (3-minute) algorithm written in Frink (a 
> > programming language of my own design):...
> 
> Ja, the puzzle is that this algorithm is way too
> slow to have been done on a 3.2 mhz computer.  It
> would have taken months to get thru the 8th powers.
> 
> Robert wrote:
> 
> >Reviewing recent comments by Alan and Spike -- you folks had
> >way too much time on your hands...
> 
> So very true.
> 
> But aint it grand?  {8^D  I just love having time for
> reprehensible intellectual idleness.  {8-]  Its what
> I want to do with eternity if I manage to get myself
> uploaded: sit and think.  What else can a program do?
> 
> As it turns out, I rediscovered the algorithm today
> and nailed the rest up thru 14:
> 
> numbers that equal the sum of the 9th power of their digits:
> 
> 146511208, 
> 912985153, 
> 472335975, 
> 534494836
> 
> sum of the 10th powers:  4679307774
> 
> sum of 11th powers:  32164049650,
> 32164049651
> 40028394225,
> 42678290603,
> 44708635679,
> 49388550606,
> 82693916578
> 94204591914,
> 
> 12th:  aint none!
> 
> 13th:  564240140138
> 
> 14th:  281164403359967
> 
> Clearly I didn't do this brute force method, computers
> havent been in existence that long. 
> 
> {8^D  spike (the cheerful idler)
> 
> ps if anyone can think of an application for this
> silliness, do suggest and we can apply for a
> software patent together, assuming you do not
> consider it a sin to patent an algorithm.  This
> one is clever if I say so myself.  {8-]  s
> 
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From alito at organicrobot.com  Sat Feb  7 16:03:12 2004
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 02:03:12 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <Law9-OE29idLOoTVSFl00038b79@hotmail.com>
References: <000001c3ed50$62a82860$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<Law9-OE29idLOoTVSFl00038b79@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <1076169791.32186.472.camel@alito.homeip.net>

On Sun, 2004-02-08 at 01:41, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:
> So, what is the algorithm?
> 
waiiitttt!  give us sometime to waste on this first
alejandro




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sat Feb  7 16:45:50 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:45:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <001d01c3ed3d$3d662c40$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Fri, 6 Feb 2004, Russell Evermore wrote:

> Getting back to Robert Bradbury's original puzzlement over why Nasa/JPL
> seems a little stingy with the goods. Honestly guys, I can't believe you're
> having difficulty with this one. Think meta-perspective and you will soon
> begin to see how the pieces fit together.

I'm not buying it completely -- NASA is not the JPL.  The comments on /.
suggest that the JPL made a poor choice for the operating system for the
landers (and its probably a closed source OS).  But that is no reason
to keep the applications running on top of it closed as well -- as Mike
has pointed out they have some of the sim on Earth software available
(or is this closed source as well???).

*But* I think it was the NOVA show on the Mars landers where Dr. Squyres
made the point that when they were ready to launch the software had not
been fully developed and that they were planning to install upgrades
during the voyage to Mars.  One has to wonder what open source development
of the Mars Rover software might have been capable of?

Though Mike's comments make some sense -- I would love to see the
responses for FOI requests for the complete blueprints to the S-V
or the Space Shuttle (or even the SSME).  You can make lots of security
arguments vis-a-vis the rocket (or "missile") technology -- though
I would love to know what the European arguments relative to the
A-4 or A-5 plans would be (since there is a lower component of the
U.S. v. Soviet Union paranoia).

The days when the excuse of "well its too much information and we
could never deliver it all" (which might well be justified for
something like the S-V blueprints) would appear to be fading.
We know the lander code is less than a gigabyte.  It will
certainly fit on a DVD or even a CD -- for more robust email
systems it can probably even be sent as a (rather large) attachment.

It would be interesting to start an effort that *if* the U.S. (using
taxpayer dollars) is going to return to the Moon or Mars to insist
that all of the data (hardware blueprints, software code, etc.) be
public.

Robert




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sat Feb  7 16:53:35 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:53:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] ASTRO: Hubble breaking news...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070846230.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Well in a Monty Pythonesque flashback
  "But I'm not dead yet..."
the Hubble refurbishment missions may get yet another
review.  It would appear that from within NASA reports
are surfacing (though the author declined to disclose
his identity) that there is not an excessive or differential
safety risk to deal with the telescope.

See:

Engineer's Papers Dispute Hubble Decision
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/science/07HUBB.html?pagewanted=print

Drat those engineers -- leave it to them to interfere with
the carefully laid plans of the politicians and administrators.

R.




From duggerj1 at charter.net  Sat Feb  7 16:54:01 2004
From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 10:54:01 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Wolfram's ANKOS & JPL's Spacefilght Basics now
	On-Line
Message-ID: <200402071654.i17Gs1cO064961@mxsf18.cluster1.charter.net>

Saturday, 07 February 2004

Hello all,

    For those of you who missed it on /., Wolfram's A New Kind of Science now exists as on-line copy at this link:

http://www.wolframscience.com/nksonline/

It does require a registration.

JPL also has a basics of spaceflight course at this URL.

http://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/basics/

Again from /.; two worthy posts in as many days. Surely this implies an imminent eschatological event.

Finally, for those of you who don't know, Nanomedicine Vol. I exists at this URL.

http://www.nanomedicine.com/NMI.htm

Finally, I posted this earlier, but it seems unnoticed. The Rover simulation software exists here.

http://mars.telascience.org/

If you download the simulator, please use BitTorrent.

Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.owlmirror.net/Aduggerj/
Sometimes the delete key serves best.



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 16:57:02 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 08:57:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <1076169791.32186.472.camel@alito.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <20040207165702.6476.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Alejandro Dubrovsky <alito at organicrobot.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2004-02-08 at 01:41, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:
> > So, what is the algorithm?
> > 
> waiiitttt!  give us sometime to waste on this first
> alejandro

In pidgin code...

For each x= 1 to 999999999999
z=1
Dim y = 1 to 32
decatenate x ~ y{1-32}
for each dim y^z
sum y{1-32}=n
If n = x then Print x else
z=z+1
next dim y

Next x


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 17:23:11 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 09:23:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] ASTRO: Hubble breaking news...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070846230.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040207172311.95132.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> 
> Well in a Monty Pythonesque flashback
>   "But I'm not dead yet..."
> the Hubble refurbishment missions may get yet another
> review.  It would appear that from within NASA reports
> are surfacing (though the author declined to disclose
> his identity) that there is not an excessive or differential
> safety risk to deal with the telescope.
> 
> See:
> 
> Engineer's Papers Dispute Hubble Decision
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/science/07HUBB.html?pagewanted=print
> 
> Drat those engineers -- leave it to them to interfere with
> the carefully laid plans of the politicians and administrators.

I wasn't aware that Halliburton was getting into the business of
building space telescopes...

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From alito at organicrobot.com  Sat Feb  7 17:50:48 2004
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 03:50:48 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ed50$62a82860$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <000001c3ed50$62a82860$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <1076176248.32527.479.camel@alito.homeip.net>

Spike wrote:

>As it turns out, I rediscovered the algorithm today
>and nailed the rest up thru 14:

Impressive!  Have you looked up the sequence in the list of sequences? 
(i can't remember url, and my g**gle force is weak today.  most likely
i've got the name wrong)  Maybe a new addition

alejandro






From eugen at leitl.org  Sat Feb  7 17:57:19 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:57:19 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <001d01c3ed3d$3d662c40$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040207175719.GH3557@leitl.org>

On Sat, Feb 07, 2004 at 08:45:50AM -0800, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:

> I'm not buying it completely -- NASA is not the JPL.  The comments on /.
> suggest that the JPL made a poor choice for the operating system for the

VxWorks is industry-standard hard realtime OS

	http://www.windriver.com/marsrover/index.html

It's a small market (some 3-4 vendors?).

> landers (and its probably a closed source OS).  But that is no reason

There are no open source deep embedded OSses which are useful. Really none. Open source is not
really a quality criterion per se, as e.g. Linux is a terrible architecture.
But there is really nothing to discuss, because the existing crop of closed
source OSses is designed by competent engineers, and these do deliver.

It is really nontrivial to diagnose a condition with a 12 min turnaround time,
and route around flash memory damage. These engineers deserve major kudos to
keep that lander alive, given the constraints.

> to keep the applications running on top of it closed as well -- as Mike
> has pointed out they have some of the sim on Earth software available
> (or is this closed source as well???).

If they wrote the simulator, and public funds were involved, they should have
open sourced it. Apropos of nothing, here's an open source simulator which is
suitable for robotics: http://darwin2k.com/

Darwin2K is a free, open-source toolkit for robot simulation and automated
design. It features numerous simulation capabilities and an evolutionary
algorithm capable of automatically synthesizing and optimizing robot designs
to meet task-specific performance objectives.

Darwin2K development is being hosted at SourceForge.net; if you're interested
in developing, get a SourceForge account and contact me through SourceForge
(xrayjones-at-users.sourceforge.net). Visit the Darwin2K project homepage for
news, documentation, files, and screenshots.
 
> *But* I think it was the NOVA show on the Mars landers where Dr. Squyres
> made the point that when they were ready to launch the software had not
> been fully developed and that they were planning to install upgrades
> during the voyage to Mars.  One has to wonder what open source development

Patching spacecraft in transit is routine, though it is used to be used to
address emergencies in transit. Ability to apply patches without reboot is a
pretty good feature for a commercial OS, btw.

> of the Mars Rover software might have been capable of?

Open source doesn't guarantee success. It depends on the people
self-selection dynamics. Horrible failures are the norm, it's probably not a
good idea to risk that, given how much the mission costs.

Using open source for small cheap missions (amateur LEO) is definitely the
way to go. Too bad consumer-grade hardware isn't mil-specced, and has a very
short half life time, typically.
 
-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sat Feb  7 18:44:16 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:44:16 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
Message-ID: <40253200.55657CC9@mindspring.com>

But Dennis Quaid will save us:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/technology/articles/0,15114,582584,00.html?cnn=yes

CLIMATE COLLAPSE
The Pentagon's Weather Nightmare
The climate could change radically, and fast.
That would be the mother of all national security
issues.
By David Stipp

gj


From alito at organicrobot.com  Sat Feb  7 19:20:42 2004
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 05:20:42 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <000001c3ed50$62a82860$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <000001c3ed50$62a82860$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <1076181642.32190.497.camel@alito.homeip.net>

spike:
>13th: 564240140138
>14th: 281164403359967

eureka moments kick.  Thanks for the puzzle! (what else would you rather
be doing at 5am? :)

15th: none
16th: 4338281769391371, 4338281769391370
17th: 35875699062250035, 35641594208964132, 21897142587612075,
233411150132317

I'll leave it running overnight, see how far it gets.
alejandro




From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Feb  7 21:24:15 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 13:24:15 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040207132218.01e77d50@pop.earthlink.net>

Here's a supportive idea:

Somebody on the list made a great suggestion that we nominate several 
posters from the "extropy-chat" list to participate in the VP Summit as 
"Catalysts."

I'll start by nominating Spike to be a Catalyst.  Anyone want to make 
another nomination?

What is a Catalysts?

The Catalysts (about 30 individuals and organizations invited due to their 
special knowledge and skills) are the crucial connection between the 
previous two groups. As a Catalyst, you will have a crucial role in 
bringing the final product (?deliverable?) of the Summit into reality.

Catalysts will do some or all of the following (not everyone needs to do 
them all):

PROVOKE, MOTIVATE, & GUIDE discussion in the Workshop. One way to do this 
is to challenge those in the View-and-Do group to comment on what they 
think works and what does not work so well in the initial statements of the 
Keynotes. Obviously you can do this right from the start since the 
Keynotes? statements are due to be online for the first day of the Summit. 
If a Keynote statement is revised (perhaps thanks to input from you or 
channeled through you), there?s another opportunity to focus attention. (Is 
the change really an improvement? And so on.)

INFORMATION NODE/CHANNEL: As the term implies, a Catalyst helps along the 
intellectual chemical reaction to make possible the final product. This 
means, one, conveying especially good thinking from the Workshop to the 
Keynote(s) concerned; second, get the View-and-Do group going if Keynote 
participants have requests for research to refine their contribution, or if 
they want specific feedback, etc.

EDIT/PRODUCE: Separately from activity in the ?Workshop? area which is open 
to all attendees, you will have a Production Room. In that collaborative 
space, you will draw on the Keynotes? statements and mix in your own 
thoughts and any productive results of discussion in the Workshop.


Natasha


Natasha Vita-More
President, Extropy Institute
<http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit ? on the Internet ?February 15-29, 2004


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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Feb  7 19:35:23 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 11:35:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] ASTRO: Hubble breaking news...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070846230.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040207193523.75382.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> Engineer's Papers Dispute Hubble Decision
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/07/science/07HUBB.html?pagewanted=print

>From the article:

> The author is a NASA engineer who wrote the reports
> based on internal data and who declined to be
> identified for fear of losing his job.

...and is there any question that NASA's management
still needs drastic shakeup, if not a very extensive
purge?


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Feb  7 20:11:43 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 12:11:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <20040207152912.46301.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040207201143.82736.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Russell has a point here. I've always wondered why
> there are not freely
> available government specs on "How to build an
> orbital rocket" or "How
> to build a space capsule", laying out a lot of
> design requirements:
> what capsule wall thickness is required for a given
> atmospheric
> pressure, how much shielding against radiation
> and/or micrometeorites,
> how much reentry shielding, etc. If that information
> were freely
> available, then you'd have backyard tinkerers
> putting together
> rocketships all over the country.

There are, and there are.  In both cases, though, you
have to hunt for them.  Plan on spending weeks, if not
months, to get all the data (assuming you can only
spare an hour or so per day; serious professional
digging would be faster, but of course this only
applies to those who are getting paid to do it).

> This result is something the PTB definitely do NOT
> want. Aside from the
> monopoly of NASA and the oligopoly of the big
> aerospace companies,
> you'd have to worry about rocketships falling out of
> the sky all over
> the country, gawd knows what lives where they intend
> to impact rather
> loudly. 

Not a problem.  Although the information is out there,
a lot of the would-be rocketeers are finding that
getting regulatory approval to launch is the true
obstacle...and while the regulators would like people
to launch, they do take seriously their duty to the
people on the ground.  (For example, the maximum
expected casualties per launch before they'll grant a
launch license is, I think, somewhere around
1/1,000,000 - and the duty is on the launcher to prove
the rocket is that safe.  This usually requires a lot
of low-altitude, low-power testing, which itself
requires regulatory permission, usually from a number
of state and local officials including the local fire
marshal.)

And there's also the fact that rocket science has a
reputation as difficult for a reason - although it's
mostly the rocket *engineering* that's the hard part.
Choose your fuels, choose your nozzle configuration,
make sure it's ultimately powerful enough, bang it
together, get it to fire on the ground (in some remote
area), add an aeroshell and a recovery system, find a
place that allows rocket launches (again, the local
fire marshal can be a good indication of whether there
are any such places in the county; highly urbanized
counties often won't have any such place, so talk to
the next county over), truck it over there,
launch...

By this point, you've probably found a number of areas
where things didn't act like you thought they would.
Not to mention, you've already spent months or years
getting everything together - even if you *are* doing
this full-time by now.  And the launch licenses for
full-altitude tests, not to mention commercial
operations, require many many tests.  (Remember the
arguments for decreasing per-launch costs by designing
for many launches with rapid turnaround?  That doesn't
just apply to for-pay flights after you've got the
license; it's also a viable way of drastically
reducing development costs.  After all, before you can
fly commercially, someone - usually you, if you're the
would-be rocketeer - has to pay for all those test
flights, not to mention usually-salaried ground crew
time between flights: 40 flights at 8 flights a day is
a lot less wages than 40 flights at 1 flight every 2
weeks.)

> You'd also have lots of ballistic launches. What
> would the neighbors
> think? Especially the neighbors who are career
> paranoiacs with their
> fingers on the trigger of a fleet of ICBMs and who
> do not comprehend
> our individualistic culture. They'd be looking at
> their radar screens
> every day, having a nervous breakdown over whether
> Bubba's Backyard
> Rocket is the Running Dog Amerikans launching the
> Big One at them...

At least in the US, by law, you have to register
launches with the US Space Command, in part so they
can warn the neighbors what's up.  (A 1/25/95 launch
from Norway almost did start nuclear war.  Yeltsin had
his nuclear briefcase activated and ready as his
officials monitored the rocket, especially after it
seemed to go MIRV - actually just shedding components.
Even if he had then been disabled, the Russians still
had launch-on-warning protocols; the rocket was deemed
not a threat, and the protocols disarmed, with less
than 4 minutes to go.  As it turned out, the Russians
had been informed, but the message did not make it
through their bureaucracy.  This internal
communications error has presumably since been fixed
with prejudice.)

In practice, this is a minor hurdle.  Everyone's going
to see you launching anyway (there are no stealth
rockets yet), so why not warn 'em?


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sat Feb  7 22:04:48 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 14:04:48 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
References: <40253200.55657CC9@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c3edc6$677a9460$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Ok maybe. But the real question is how best to deal with yet another looming
disaster (or pessimistic round of disasterbation). Two thirds of the way
through the article I started to wonder if any actual SOLUTIONS would be
forthcoming. Thus I was a little surprised when I found that some were
indeed suggested.

. Speed research on the forces that can trigger abrupt climate change, how
it unfolds, and how we'll know it's occurring.

        (Or put another way, wasting shit-loads of money that would be
better spent working toward a rapid assembler breakthrough and near term
weather control, among other direct and positive benefits of nanotechnology)

. Sponsor studies on the scenarios that might play out, including
ecological, social, economic, and political fallout on key food-producing
regions.

        (So we can distract ourselves from the more pressing concerns such
as preparing our response to the swelling memetic push toward a new
pan-Islamic caliphate?)

. Identify "no regrets" strategies to ensure reliable access to food and
water and to ensure our national security.

        (They mean robust biotechnology there, I just know they do.)

. Form teams to prepare responses to possible massive migration, and food
and water shortages.

        (In other words, conserve, conserve, conserve because technology
never really changes anything, except for the worse of course.)

. Explore ways to offset abrupt cooling-today it appears easier to warm than
to cool the climate via human activities, so there may be "geo-engineering"
options available to prevent a catastrophic temperature drop.

    (Yes, by all means explore - nano-gortex, nano-gloves, nano-mittens,
space mirrors, jogging on the spot, cuddling)



Russell Evermore

Heh - check out the cool article that topped when I plunked "nano gortex"
into google http://www.directionsmag.com/article.php?article_id=375

Doesn't the Internet just boggle your mind every single day!






From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  7 22:57:49 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 14:57:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <40253200.55657CC9@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20040207225749.47798.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> CLIMATE COLLAPSE
> The Pentagon's Weather Nightmare
> The climate could change radically, and fast.
> That would be the mother of all national security
> issues.

Ah, so funny. Now that proponents of global warming had us all looking
forward to cheap waterfront property in Labrador, they realize their
mistake and now claim, not global warming and flooding, but an Ice Age.
The Chicken-Littles are getting quite desperate.

I see they are still claiming that ocean levels will rise, even though
an Ice Age would protect both the Greenland as well as the Antarctic
Ice caps, AND trigger a growth spurt in glaciers in temperate mountain
ranges. Where would this water be coming from to raise the sea
levels???

The Lesser Dryas period was marked by a DROP in sea levels, as
evidenced by the underwater sites found in northern europe of
prehistoric communities built on stilts. If anything, the Netherlands
should now be PAYING the US to pollute, if we have an Ice Age. They'll
get more land and less need for dikes thanks to us.

This report is more statist propaganda.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From neptune at superlink.net  Sun Feb  8 00:56:52 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:56:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
References: <20040207225749.47798.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003101c3edde$71badc60$15ce5cd1@neptune>

On Saturday, February 07, 2004 5:57 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
wrote:
> The Lesser Dryas period was marked by
> a DROP in sea levels, as evidenced by
> the underwater sites found in northern
> europe of prehistoric communities built
> on stilts. If anything, the Netherlands
> should now be PAYING the US to pollute,
> if we have an Ice Age. They'll get more
> land and less need for dikes thanks to us.
>
> This report is more statist propaganda.

Hey, if you want lower sea levels -- or if anyone does -- remember the
proposal to flood the East African Rift Valley?  It's a fairly cheap
macroengineering project.  You just have to open up the part near the
Red Sea a little.  In fact, that can probably be done with a few well
placed conventional explosives and minimal excavation.  I'm sure if the
opening is widened just a wee bit, nature will do the rest...  Anyone
interested?

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html



From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  8 01:39:17 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:39:17 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
References: <20040207225749.47798.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
	<003101c3edde$71badc60$15ce5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE30D8Qo93EUi0004dce0@hotmail.com>

Just how much land area are we speaking of? Enough so that a group of
entrepreneurs could buy the land, blow it up, and do this without anyone
knowing until it was too late?

Is there any land (or water area) available for purchase really cheap that
could then be sold off afterwards to make a fortune on this deal? This is a
plan worthy of Dr Evil himself!




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Technotranscendence" <neptune at superlink.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse


> On Saturday, February 07, 2004 5:57 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
> wrote:
> > The Lesser Dryas period was marked by
> > a DROP in sea levels, as evidenced by
> > the underwater sites found in northern
> > europe of prehistoric communities built
> > on stilts. If anything, the Netherlands
> > should now be PAYING the US to pollute,
> > if we have an Ice Age. They'll get more
> > land and less need for dikes thanks to us.
> >
> > This report is more statist propaganda.
>
> Hey, if you want lower sea levels -- or if anyone does -- remember the
> proposal to flood the East African Rift Valley?  It's a fairly cheap
> macroengineering project.  You just have to open up the part near the
> Red Sea a little.  In fact, that can probably be done with a few well
> placed conventional explosives and minimal excavation.  I'm sure if the
> opening is widened just a wee bit, nature will do the rest...  Anyone
> interested?
>
> Later!
>
> Dan
> http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 02:04:20 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 18:04:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <003101c3edde$71badc60$15ce5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <20040208020420.71700.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> wrote:
> Hey, if you want lower sea levels - or if anyone does -remember the
> proposal to flood the East African Rift Valley?  It's a fairly cheap
> macroengineering project.  You just have to open up the part near the
> Red Sea a little.  In fact, that can probably be done with a few well
> placed conventional explosives and minimal excavation.  I'm sure if
> the opening is widened just a wee bit, nature will do the rest Anyone
> interested?

http://www.observ.u-bordeaux.fr/public/planetologie/paillou/djibouti/ign.gif

Appears that the topography has less than a km of land above sea level,
with a peak elevation of 55 meters (not necessarily at the lowest point
needed to get by). The Rift valley, while bottoming out at -157 meters,
is not that large, volume wise. This formation is known as an
aulacogen,(Gk. for furrow), as originally coined by Schatsky and
Bogdanoff in 1960, is a fault trough in a craton that meets, more or
less at right angles, a fold belt or the edge of the continent.

Djibouti is currently a democratic nation, its dictator having stepped
down in 1999. The Afar rebel group signed a peace agreement. The valley
is bereft of vegetation and animal species. Lake Asal is saline, and
the ocean water that seeps through fault lines picks up significant
mineral content. This area has significant geologic activity, with
great potential for geothermal energy, which might be increased if the
mass of water upon the fault lines were added by flooding the valley.
There is a volcanic crater in the rift valley.

The population of the country is only about 600,000.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  8 03:43:15 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 19:43:15 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Puzzle  - Short Tale
In-Reply-To: <20040207165702.6476.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001601c3edf5$afe1b100$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> > waiiitttt!  give us sometime to waste on this first
> > alejandro
> 
> In pidgin code...
> 
> For each x= 1 to 999999999999
> z=1
> Dim y = 1 to 32
> decatenate x ~ y{1-32}
> for each dim y^z
> sum y{1-32}=n
> If n = x then Print x else
> z=z+1
> next dim y
> 
> Next x
> 
> 
> =====
> Mike Lorrey

Mike this algorithm would take weeks on a modern
PC and would still only get you up thru the 12s.
Even then, the last two thirds of the time would
find you nothing.

spike



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  8 04:23:56 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:23:56 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <20040207201143.82736.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000501c3edfb$5e43ed30$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > ... I've always wondered why
> > there are not freely available government specs on "How to build an
> > orbital rocket" or "How to build a space capsule"...

The government version of that would not be particularly
useful I fear, because NASA does everything super-high-tech.
I've been sizing a system for compact payloads.  The shuttle
has that enormous 20 meter by 4 meter payload bay, but what
if we went low tech, tried to hoist 1000 kg in a payload
envelope 2 meters on a side?  I have convinced myself that
the task could be done with a 2 1/2 stage system using
pressure fed kerosine and LOX in both rocket stages.

If we don't need to recover the second stage, my calcs
show it could work.  It's a little more difficult if
we try to recover everything.  Another compromise
design recovers the second stage motor and control system
but throws away the second stage tanks, which shouldn't 
be all that expensive.

My notion is that pressure vessels can be assembled
on-orbit with a stack of hexagonal and pentagonal
plates, forming a soccer ball, with each plate being
about 2 meters across.  One could even use these plates
to make long tubes which connect spherical shells and
so on.  The notion is to make the payloads compact
so you don't waste all that weight on structure to
haul big stuff to orbit.

spike



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  8 04:59:48 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2004 20:59:48 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040207132218.01e77d50@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000501c3ee00$60de2dd0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

I am honored, but it sounds like I need HTML skills?  I suck 
at that.  I would be happy to manage information and write 
summaries tho.  We have plenty of webheads who could
help with a site I suppose.  
 
We do, right?
 
spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha
Vita-More
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:24 PM
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!


Here's a supportive idea:

Somebody on the list made a great suggestion that we nominate several
posters from the "extropy-chat" list to participate in the VP Summit as
"Catalysts."

I'll start by nominating Spike to be a Catalyst.  Anyone want to make
another nomination?
 ... Natasha



Natasha Vita-More
President, Extropy Institute
Extropy  <http://www.extropy.org/> Institute
Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit - on the Internet -February 15-29,
2004




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From scerir at libero.it  Sun Feb  8 14:09:00 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:09:00 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] pigeons
References: <001601c3edf5$afe1b100$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <003c01c3ee4d$1ae343e0$bdbd1897@extropy>


"Secret" of homing pigeons revealed

-- LONDON, England, Feb. 6, (Reuters) --

The secret of carrier pigeons' uncanny ability to find their
way home has been discovered by British scientists: The feathered
navigators follow the roads just like we do.

Researchers at Oxford University spent 10 years studying homing pigeons
using Global Positioning System (GPS) satellites and were stunned to find
the birds often don't navigate by taking bearing from the sun.

Instead they fly along motorways, turn at junctions and even go around
roundabouts, adding miles to their journeys, British newspapers reported.

"It really has knocked our research team sideways" Professor Tim Guilford
said in the Daily Telegraph.

"It is striking to see the pigeons fly straight down the A34 Oxford bypass,
and then sharply curve off at the traffic lights before curving off again at
the roundabout" he said.

Guilford said pigeons use their own navigational system when doing
long-distance trips or when a bird does a journey for the first time.

But when they have flown a journey more than once they home in on an
habitual route home.

"In short it looks like it is mentally easier for a bird to fly down a
road...they are just making their journey as simple as possible."




From neptune at superlink.net  Sun Feb  8 15:17:27 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:17:27 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
References: <20040207225749.47798.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com><003101c3edde$71badc60$15ce5cd1@neptune>
	<Law10-OE30D8Qo93EUi0004dce0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008401c3ee56$aa99a520$5dcd5cd1@neptune>

On Saturday, February 07, 2004 8:39 PM Kevin Freels
kevinfreels at hotmail.com wrote:
> Just how much land area are we speaking of?

No much.  The initial project could be very small.  A channel just has
to be widened.  Water already trickles through from the Red Sea, but at
such a low rate that it onlyt creates salt flats for few miles from the
area.

> Enough so that a group of entrepreneurs could
> buy the land, blow it up, and do this without anyone
> knowing until it was too late?

It could be done rather quickly.  I'm not sure how well monitored the
area is.  (Since the Rift is also widening, it will happen without our
help sooner or later anyhow.)

> Is there any land (or water area) available for
> purchase really cheap that could then be sold
> off afterwards to make a fortune on this deal?
> This is a plan worthy of Dr Evil himself!

Well, the plan could actually be beneficial.  It would create an inland
sea in Eastern Africa in a region that is semi-arid to arid.  Yes, it
would flood some of the lowlands there, but this would also change
rainfall patterns most likely making more rain around the whole region
as well as provide people with a waterway for transportation and
commerce.  Also, people could add seafood to their diet.  No doubt, it
would also increase tourism, since you'd have a large body of calm water
in a very balmy area.  Instead of a few eco-tourists, you'd have tens of
thousands of typical tourists.

I think all of this would have an uplifting effect on the local
economies.  So, I don't think the plan is evil.

Of course, it might be good to do some preliminary studies of the
project, but I'd fear that some people wouldn't want such
macroengineering projects to take place no matter what -- even if the
locals wanted it.  (The locals should really have the say here, no?
It's their habitat.)

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html



From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  8 15:30:06 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:30:06 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
References: <001601c3edf5$afe1b100$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <Law9-OE60GZPfyZkB5a0003fabc@hotmail.com>

Found this article through fark.com:
http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/business/7900235.htm

It's interesting that disney bans the segway as it is not a medical device
(per the FDA). What's sad is that their approach to new technology is to ban
it.

The segway can be seen as a body modification so it's user becomes sort of a
cyborg (especially in the case of otherwise disabled persons).

It's also interesting and dishearting that san francisco has banned the
segway from sidewalks.

I guess this is an example of the public not coping with transhumanist
themes very well.

BAL


From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  8 17:40:39 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:40:39 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] pigeons
In-Reply-To: <003c01c3ee4d$1ae343e0$bdbd1897@extropy>
Message-ID: <000501c3ee6a$ab5256b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> scerir:
> Subject: [extropy-chat] pigeons
> 
> 
> 
> "Secret" of homing pigeons revealed
> 
> -- LONDON, England, Feb. 6, (Reuters) --
> 
> The secret of carrier pigeons' uncanny ability to find their
> way home has been discovered by British scientists: The feathered
> navigators follow the roads just like we do...

When I read this I had to just stop and laugh my
fanny off.  I recall scientists puzzling over this
since I was a boy.  {8^D  Alls we needed is a
GPS small and light enough to be carried by a
bird, and mystery solved.  {8^D  spike




From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  8 17:50:10 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:50:10 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <008401c3ee56$aa99a520$5dcd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <000601c3ee6b$ff45ed30$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Technotranscendence:

> 
> Well, the plan could actually be beneficial.  It would create 
> an inland  sea in Eastern Africa in a region that is semi-arid to
arid.


Well hell yes!  I don't see the down side at all.
Couldn't we create an inland sea in the western
Sahara by piping fresh water over from the Nile?
Then the hot dry air would blow across it and
perhaps increase rainfall in the eastern side
of that vast desert.


> 
> I think all of this would have an uplifting effect on the local
> economies.  So, I don't think the plan is evil.

Of course!  Water is valuable as all get out in north
Africa.  I honestly don't see why we don't get with the
program and save some of it, or use it for something.
We could pipe it north from the wetter equatorial
regions, everyone would benefit.


> ...I'd fear that some people wouldn't want such
> macroengineering projects to take place no matter what -- even if the
> locals wanted it... Dan


Why?  Im not disagreeing, but I do want to understand
the reasoning of the people who might oppose such an action.
Would the opposers be entirely on the part of those
who wish the people of north Africa to starve?  Or are
there other interests I am overlooking?  Looks like a
tropical north Africa would help everyone in some way.
To me, fixing Africa is an even more worthwhile project
than going to Mars.  And this is *me* talking.

spike



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb  8 17:52:17 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 09:52:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <Law9-OE60GZPfyZkB5a0003fabc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040208175217.12588.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Alexander Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> The segway can be seen as a body modification so
> it's user becomes sort of a
> cyborg (especially in the case of otherwise disabled
> persons).

Not really.  It's a lot closer to the common concept
of "vehicle" than "body modification".  (Of course,
one could argue that most vehicles could be seen as
extensions of the body.  But this ignores the reason
we distinguish vehicles from their drivers/pilots in
the first place.)

> I guess this is an example of the public not coping
> with transhumanist
> themes very well.

Not really.  Segways were given a chance, and proved
that they can easily become unsafe under common
conditions (specifically, when the battery runs low or
when driven by an uncautious person).


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  8 18:07:44 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:07:44 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
References: <000501c3ee00$60de2dd0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE62aaO9OJCSO0004ebd9@hotmail.com>

MessageOh, go for it! It's just HTML. You could learn the minimum necessary to do what is needed for this in a day. I don;t think you will need to know JavaScript, tables, image maps, or any of the more complicated aspects, just basic text formatting.  

I would like to nominate Robert Bradbury for his in-depth knowledge and excellent communication skills.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Spike 
  To: 'ExI chat list' 
  Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 10:59 PM
  Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!


  I am honored, but it sounds like I need HTML skills?  I suck 
  at that.  I would be happy to manage information and write 
  summaries tho.  We have plenty of webheads who could
  help with a site I suppose.  

  We do, right?

  spike
    -----Original Message-----
    From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha Vita-More
    Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:24 PM
    To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
    Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!


    Here's a supportive idea:

    Somebody on the list made a great suggestion that we nominate several posters from the "extropy-chat" list to participate in the VP Summit as "Catalysts."

    I'll start by nominating Spike to be a Catalyst.  Anyone want to make another nomination?
     ... Natasha


    Natasha Vita-More
    President, Extropy Institute
    Extropy Institute
    Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit - on the Internet -February 15-29, 2004






------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 18:26:13 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:26:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <20040208175217.12588.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040208182613.25532.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- Brian Alexander Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The segway can be seen as a body modification so
> > it's user becomes sort of a
> > cyborg (especially in the case of otherwise disabled
> > persons).
> 
> Not really.  It's a lot closer to the common concept
> of "vehicle" than "body modification".  (Of course,
> one could argue that most vehicles could be seen as
> extensions of the body.  But this ignores the reason
> we distinguish vehicles from their drivers/pilots in
> the first place.)

The essential problem with San Francisco (but not Disney, it being
private property) is that it is a well settled matter of common law
that citizens have the 9th amendment right to travel upon the public
roads in their personal conveyances. Banning a vehicle is
unconstitutional, as is requiring people surrender a right in order to
gain a privilege (i.e. giving up this right to travel in exchange for a
drivers license). Licenses can only be demanded of those who are paid
to engage in the transport of passengers or cargo in commerce.

> 
> > I guess this is an example of the public not coping
> > with transhumanist
> > themes very well.
> 
> Not really.  Segways were given a chance, and proved
> that they can easily become unsafe under common
> conditions (specifically, when the battery runs low or
> when driven by an uncautious person).

WHich is a bogus application of the Precautionary Principle. Common
bicycles can cause fatalities if you go fast enough with them,
especially coming down the steep hills of San Francisco. So what?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb  8 18:41:48 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:41:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <20040208182613.25532.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040208184148.74331.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> > Not really.  Segways were given a chance, and
> proved
> > that they can easily become unsafe under common
> > conditions (specifically, when the battery runs
> low or
> > when driven by an uncautious person).
> 
> WHich is a bogus application of the Precautionary
> Principle. Common
> bicycles can cause fatalities if you go fast enough
> with them,
> especially coming down the steep hills of San
> Francisco. So what?

Those conditions aren't as common.  Though, perhaps
"when the battery runs low" is the one that should be
focussed on: when other vehicles run out of power,
they tend to stop (modulo gravity, but brake failures
aren't that common either).  So do Segways, but in
said situations, they stop in ways injurious to their
users.  (Or so I've heard; I could well have been
misinformed.)


From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  8 18:39:47 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:39:47 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE62aaO9OJCSO0004ebd9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c3ee72$ee241390$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

My wife has a few HTML skills too.  Robert already has an elaborate
website and the skills to make it so, but mine is text-based only.  I do

need to get up to speed on website construction.  I just bought another 
antique motorcycle which needs some major TLC, but I think I can work 
it all in.  When do we start?  {8-]  spike

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin
Freels
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 10:08 AM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!


Oh, go for it! It's just HTML. You could learn the minimum necessary to
do what is needed for this in a day. I don;t think you will need to know
JavaScript, tables, image maps, or any of the more complicated aspects,
just basic text formatting.  
 
I would like to nominate Robert Bradbury for his in-depth knowledge and
excellent communication skills.
 

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Spike <mailto:spike66 at comcast.net>  
To: 'ExI chat list' <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>  
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 10:59 PM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!

I am honored, but it sounds like I need HTML skills?  I suck 
at that.  I would be happy to manage information and write 
summaries tho ... 

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From samantha at objectent.com  Sun Feb  8 19:10:58 2004
From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:10:58 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] ping
Message-ID: <8727DE5B-5A6A-11D8-9ABC-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com>




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 19:29:27 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 11:29:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <20040208184148.74331.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040208192927.35945.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > Not really.  Segways were given a chance, and
> > > proved that they can easily become unsafe under common
> > > conditions (specifically, when the battery runs
> > low or when driven by an uncautious person).
> > 
> > WHich is a bogus application of the Precautionary
> > Principle. Common bicycles can cause fatalities if
> > you go fast enough with them,
> > especially coming down the steep hills of San
> > Francisco. So what?
> 
> Those conditions aren't as common.  Though, perhaps
> "when the battery runs low" is the one that should be
> focussed on: when other vehicles run out of power,
> they tend to stop (modulo gravity, but brake failures
> aren't that common either).  So do Segways, but in
> said situations, they stop in ways injurious to their
> users.  (Or so I've heard; I could well have been
> misinformed.)

The low power tip over has been alleviated by a software change.

Considering my own experience bicycling, and in a much more rural area
than San Francisco, I've broken two arms, and had any number of bumps
scrapes, and minor concussions, and at velocities far higher than the
12 mph maximum of the Segway.

One reason police departments don't like the Segway is its anti-theft
features. Surprised? Don't be. Unreclaimed bicycle auctions are a
significant source of income for police departments. Cops NEVER make an
attempt to match a reported bike theft with one found and brought in.
I've personally confirmed this on four occasions when I've reported a
stolen bike, given the "okay, thanks", only to go in later insisting on
seeing what bikes were brought in, to find mine near the front of the
room. "oh, yeah, that kinda looks like yours, doesn't it?" Idiots.

The Segway simply cannot be hotwired. Cops hate that. Segways also go
slower as the battery drops in charge. By the time you are at risk of a
low power tip over, your speed is about 8 mph: about twice that of a
brisk walk. Big whoopdeedoo.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sun Feb  8 19:51:07 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 11:51:07 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
References: <000601c3ee6b$ff45ed30$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <000601c3ee7c$e5d4f4c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

[Regarding ambitious macro-engineering of terran topology]

> Why?  Im not disagreeing, but I do want to understand
> the reasoning of the people who might oppose such an action.
> Would the opposers be entirely on the part of those
> who wish the people of north Africa to starve?  Or are
> there other interests I am overlooking?  Looks like a
> tropical north Africa would help everyone in some way.
> To me, fixing Africa is an even more worthwhile project
> than going to Mars.  And this is *me* talking.

What have they done to the Earth? ...What have they done to our fair sister?
... Ravaged and plundered and ripped her and bit her ... Stabbed her with
knives in the side of the dawn...Tied her with fences and .......Dragged her
dowwwn...

Jim Morrison

But rejoice! Although as a teenager, I repeatedly drove such amplified
lyrics (by The Doors) into my young impressionable skull - to the degree
that the above quote is brought to you solely from memory, I still turned
out to be a luddite bashing transhumanist. Or something like that.

Russell Evermore



From scerir at libero.it  Sun Feb  8 20:47:29 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir at libero.it)
Date: Sun,  8 Feb 2004 21:47:29 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] pigeons
Message-ID: <HSS9R5$229C122653EADC5F7194BB72BEFE4241@libero.it>

Spike:
> When I read this I had to just stop and laugh my
> fanny off. 

A friend wrote this, to another list, about the same topic...
:-)

<Let me tell a story ...
I started taking flying lessons when I was 14. The time arrived for me to do
a dual cross-country flight (with an instructor). Flying a triangular course
with about 75 mile legs. I was a really good stick and rudder type guy at
that age. The instructor got in the airplane and proceeded to prop his feet 
up on the panel and open a Superman comic book -- hell, he was less than
20 himself. First leg of the trip was easy ... there was an Omni and I just 
had to "fly the needle". The second leg was "dead reckoning" ' --- follow the 
map in your lap stuff. I have never decided exactly what went wrong ... but I was
lost from the second my wheels left the ground. Finally I found about the
right sized city, with the airport in the right area of town, runways
running in the right direction ... and I called Joplin Radio and told them,
"Here I come". As I pulled up to the terminal and the instructor took his 
face out of the comic book, I saw the sign ... "Welcome to the City of Pittsburg 
Kansas ... about 30 miles from where I wanted to go. My instructor about shit 
a brick... I would (now) have given my time in the hot spot to listen to his
conversation with the Joplin Flight Service Station canceling the flight
plan. If pigeons do it this way ... they must have learned from some old 
hands how to buzz water towers to find out where they are.
-John>




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb  8 20:48:06 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 12:48:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <000601c3ee6b$ff45ed30$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040208204806.55202.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Technotranscendence: 
> 
> > ...I'd fear that some people wouldn't want such
> > macroengineering projects to take place no matter what -- even if
> the locals wanted it... Dan
> 
> 
> Why?  Im not disagreeing, but I do want to understand
> the reasoning of the people who might oppose such an action.
> Would the opposers be entirely on the part of those
> who wish the people of north Africa to starve?  Or are
> there other interests I am overlooking?  Looks like a
> tropical north Africa would help everyone in some way.
> To me, fixing Africa is an even more worthwhile project
> than going to Mars.  And this is *me* talking.

These would be the same people who oppose DDT use against malaria in
the third world, opposition which has cost tens of millions of deaths.
These would also be the people who are now lobbying to withold aid from
3rd world countries that accept genetically engineered grain seed.

Genocide, famine, starvation, epidemia, are not above these people, so
long as their Green religion's dogma is served.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Feb  8 21:08:32 2004
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:08:32 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~
Message-ID: <002901c3ee87$b57846a0$b7be1218@Nano>

The Nanogirl News
February 8, 2004

Nanotech spy eyes life inside the cell. In Prey, Michael Crichton's tale of nanotech gone awry, a swarm of light-sensitive nanoparticles swim through a human body, creating the ultimate medical imaging system. In the real world, biochemists are hoping to go one step further, deploying viruses as "nano-cameras" to get a unique picture of what goes on inside living cells and a greater understanding of how viruses themselves work. A team led by Bogdan Dragnea at Indiana University in Bloomington is exploiting the ability of viruses laden with gold to break into cells, along with the viral shell's own telltale response to laser light. Together these give an unprecedented picture of the chemical and physical activity in cells. (New Scientist 1/31/04) http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994615

Nanostructure may be key to regeneration. A tiny new scaffold that assembles itself inside the body could point the way to regeneration of spinal cords and the ability to grow tissues ranging from bone cartilage to blood vessels, scientists say. "This is a magic material," said one of the scaffold's inventors, Northwestern University chemistry professor Samuel Stupp, who reported the discovery last week in Science magazine. (Sunspot 1/26/04)
http://www.sunspot.net/news/printedition/bal-te.scaffold26jan26,0,248678.story?coll=bal-pe-asection
Also see: http://www.nature.com/nsu/040119/040119-13.html

New pollution eating paint will clean the air. A new form of paint that can absorb some of the noxious gases from vehicle exhausts goes on sale across Europe next month. Its manufacturers hope it will give architects and town planners a new weapon in the fight against pollution, an article in New Scientist reports. The new product, Ecopaint, is designed to absorb nitrogen oxides, one of the causes of respiratory problems and smog production. Dr Robert McIntyre, of Millenium Chemicals who developed the paint, says a typical 0.3 millimetre layer would be enough to last five years in a heavily polluted city. (edie 2/6/04)
http://www.edie.net/gf.cfm?L=left_frame.html&R=http://www.edie.net/news/Archive/8025.cfm

Chemists Learn To Build Curved Structures With Nanoscale Building Blocks. The natural world is full of curves and three dimensions, but the ability to deliberately and rationally construct such complex structures using nanoscale building blocks has eluded nanotechnologists who are eager to add curved structures to their toolbox. Now a team of Northwestern University chemists report they have discovered ways to construct nanoscale building blocks that assemble into flat or curved structures with a high level of predictability, depending on the architecture and composition of the building blocks. The results are published in the Jan. 16 issue of the journal Science.
(ScienceDaily 1/19/04) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/01/040119082010.htm

(Written by Douglas Mulhall, author of "Our Molecular Future." Incorporate disassembly into every self-assembled nanotech product. There is a growing mantra in the nanotech community that molecular nanotechnology (MNT) and its precursors will clean up the toxic mess left by older technologies, then produce clean energy and materials to replace them. Yet each time that I suggest building such features into nanotechnology from the start, the reply is: "We've got other things to worry about such as how to build the darn assembler and keep it militarily secured, and besides that it might be hard to achieve such perfection with early versions." This is disturbingly reminiscent of "nuclear power will give us clean limitless energy, and don't worry, we'll deal with the byproducts later because we'll have the tools by then." However, we can avoid such risks from the start by using "self-regulating assembly" and "disassembly." (Smalltimes 2/6/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/print_doc.cfm?doc_id=7382

Nano-scientist's dark secret. One of the most brilliant scientific researchers of recent years stands accused of committing an elaborate scientific fraud, fooling many eminent experts. In 2001, a team led by Hendrik Schoen appeared to have invented the smallest organic transistor ever made. 
(BBC 2/4/04) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3459769.stm

National Nanotechnology Initiative Workshop on Nano-electronics, photonics, and -magnets. A National Nanotechnology Initiative Interagency Workshop on Nano-electronics, -photonics, and -magnetics, will be held Feb. 11-13, 2004, at the Holiday Inn Arlington at Ballston, Arlington, VA. Media are invited to attend this workshop where leading scientists and engineers from government, academia and industry will exchange information, research findings and ideas toward identifying needs and opportunities for applications of nanostructured materials and devices. A draft agenda is available. (EurekAlert 2/5/04) http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-02/nnco-nni020504.php

Elements 115 and 113 discovered in Dubna. A team of Russian and American physicists that discovered elements 114 and 116 in 1998 and 2000 now believe they may have created two other superheavy elements - 113 and 115. If confirmed, these results would lend even more weight to the idea of an "island of stability" at the edge of the periodic table (Y Oganessian et al. 2003 Phys. Rev. C 69 021601) (Physics Web 2/3/04) http://www.physicsweb.org/article/news/8/2/1

Electromagnets double up. Physicists in the US have developed a new technique for making nanostructures that have both ferroelectric and ferromagnetic properties. So-called ferroelectromagnetic materials could be used to help convert electric energy into magnetic energy, and vice versa, in devices such as transducers, sensors and actuators (H Zheng et al. 2004 Science 303 661). (Physics web 1/30/04) http://physicsweb.org/article/news/8/1/15

Functionalized C60 Peas in a Pod. Fullerene derivatives are inserted into carbon nanotubes at low temperatures. Using supercritical carbon dioxide, scientists in England have inserted fullerene molecules with exterior organic functional groups into single-walled carbon nanotubes (SWNTs). The team also showed that encapsulation of the functionalized fullerenes can be enhanced or inhibited by altering the functional group. (C&E 1/26/04) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8204/8204notw4.html

'Centipedes' could lead to nano-Velcro. Scientists from the University of Michigan and Purdue University in the US, and the University of Vigo in Spain, have made "bristled nano-centipedes". The structures consist of a bristled silica coating on a cadmium tellurium (CdTe) nanowire core. "We were initially dumbfounded by the formation of the centipedes," Nick Kotov of the University of Michigan told nanotechweb.org. "The topology of the nanowires is very interesting - it could be exceptionally useful for the design of optically active and remarkably strong nanocomposites, due to the 'Velcro' effect." (nanotechweb 1/21/04) http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/3/1/5/1

(Glenn Harlan Reynolds) The Nano-Ostrich Approach Doesn't Work. Ostriches don't really bury their heads in the sand when confronted with danger. People, however, sometimes do. Certainly that seems to be what's happening with the nanotechnology industry. Last week, I wrote about prospects for nanotechnology, and in particular about what I saw as the nanotechnology business community's rather shortsighted efforts to dampen public debate on the subject. I thought it was rather clear that my column, like all my nanotechnology writings, came from a generally pro-nanotechnology standpoint, though I concluded: [W]hile I feel a certain degree of sympathy for the dinosaurs, I think that if the nanotechnology business community, because of the PR strategy that it has chosen, finds itself scissored between the scientists and visionaries on one side, and the environmentalists on the other, it will have cause to regret its rather shortsighted PR strategy. It's too early to predict that outcome now. But, like a lot of things relating to nanotechnology, it's not too early to worry about it. In fact, it wasn't very much too soon at all -- because if you read this Washington Post article by Rick Weiss, which appeared just a few days after my column, you can see exactly that scissoring starting to take place. The article, which is well worth reading (as is this sidebar on near-term applications), shows the industry being criticized not only by environmental groups, but by long-time nanotechnology boosters. And, in fact, it suggests that Monsanto's problems with public fears regarding its genetically modified organisms are a harbinger of what might happen with regard to nanotechnology. (TCS 2/4/04) http://www.techcentralstation.com/020504C.html

Paper warns of 'Nano-divide' between have and have-not countries. The chasm between have and have-not countries will grow even wider if nanotechnology research is upended by the unbalanced positions of high-profile opponents like Prince Charles, warns a new analysis from a leading global medical ethics think-tank. Nanotechnology is the building of working devices, systems and materials molecule by molecule by manipulating matter measured in billionths of a meter. The research seeks to exploit the unique and powerful electrical, physical and chemical properties found at an infinitesimally small scale. While legitimate risks and issues have been flagged, they can and should be addressed without a crippling moratorium being called for on budding research that promises vast improvement in the lives of five billion people in developing countries, according to medical ethics experts at the University of Toronto Joint Centre for Bioethics. (nanotechwire 1/28/04) http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=675

Asian-Pacific Governments Invest in Nano Labs and Research Centers. A number of new research parks have opened in the Asia-Pacific region in the past few months, illustrating an increased level of commitment by local governments toward investment in nanotechnology and related fields. 
(Smalltimes 1/22/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=7269

Nano not terrifying. American scientists said recently the application of nanotechnology could affect human health as nanometer scale particles can easily penetrate the human body and may cause diseases. Meanwhile Chinese scientists say this negative aspect of nanotechnology should not be exaggerated...Dr. Jiang Lei, with the Chinese Academy of Sciences, has been engaged in the research of nanotechnology for years. He says the test result is one-sided. "Nano particles do exist and can easily penetrate into the respiratory tract and skin of human beings. But there is also a question of quantity. How many such particles could affect human health? At the present no scientists anywhere are able to answer this." Dr. Jiang Lei also tells us how to protect ourselves in nano research. "In the course of research, we can try our best to avoid the presence of nano-scale objects in particle form. However in the liquid or solid states they are unable to penetrate human bodies." (1/14/03) http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-01/14/content_1275787.htm

The Center for Responsible Nanotechnology 'Plans Ahead'. On Jan. 21-26, 2004, the Center for Responsible Nanotechnology (CRN) posted a six-page article entitled "Responsible Nanotechnology."The article describes eight scenarios for the future of mankind in connection with molecular nanotechnology, including molecular nano assemblers, capable of destroying enemy means of nuclear retaliation and thus circumventing Mutual Assured Destruction, on which the peace between the three nuclear powers (the USA, Russia and China) has rested. (2/6/04)
http://newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/2/5/182324.shtml

Nanotechnology is area giant. Here's one of the "Look Ma, no hands" perks of owning a stain-repellent shirt: Fill up the pocket with water and watch it hold the liquid like a cup, without any leakage. "All you need is a straw," quipped David Offord, chief scientific officer at Nano-Tex, the start-up that developed the technology, during a demonstration. Naturally, the regular marketed advantages of owning stain- and liquid-repellent clothing come in handy, too. Enhanced through nanotechnology, the material allows even the clumsiest person who dribbles ketchup or spills coffee to wipe it off as easily as brushing off cookie crumbs. Here in the East Bay, nanotechnology has become the fabric of our lives. (ContraCostaTimes 2/1/04) http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/business/7849397.htm

(65nm Chips discussion). Semiconductor companies are becoming increasingly confident about making 65 nanometer chips. Some are even stating that the 90 nm to 65 nm transition will be easier than the 130 nm to 90 nm shift. Many of the technical problems associated with 65 nm chip production have been solved, and Intel has already demonstrated 65 nanometer SRAM chips. Intel will probably create the first prototype 65 nanometer microprocessors sometime in 2004, and hopes to have volume production of 65 nanometer chips by 2005. 65 nanometer chips will be made with 193 nanometer lithography, and will suffer from severe electrical leakage issues. As a result, chipmakers are making a concerted effort to introduce multi-gate transistors at the 65 nanometer node.
(Geek.com 2/6/04) http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2004Feb/bch20040206023770.htm

Reverse-direction Movement of a Molecular Motor. German scientists mastermind a backwards-moving molecular motor. In a new study, which appears in the Feb. 5 issue of Nature, researchers based at Hannover Medical School and the Max Planck Institute for Medical Research in Germany describe the engineering of an artificial backwards-moving myosin from three pre-existing molecular building blocks. (MaxPlanck Society 2/4/04) HTML: http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDocumentation/documentation/pressReleases/2004/pressRelease20040203/index.html
PDF:
http://www.mpg.de/english/illustrationsDocumentation/documentation/pressReleases/2004/pressRelease20040203/genPDF.pdf

Weighed in the nanoscale. It's no longer 'scary science' in tomorrow's world. With decisions looming on our nanotech future, Vidhya Alakeson and Tim Aldrich look at how to win public engagement. They're coming - big time. Heavyweight reports with nanotechnology in their titles are hitting our bookshelves with increasing frequency. Since the last Green Futures article on this little understood technology of the seriously small [GF34], we've a pile of studies by everyone from the ETC Group and Greenpeace to the Economic and Social Research Council and the Better Regulation Taskforce. (Green Futures 2/7/04) http://www.greenfutures.org.uk/features/default.asp?id=1723

Virtual Nanotech. Modeling materials one atom at a time. It's hard enough to thread a needle. Imagine trying to manipulate threads and needles miniaturized to one-millionth the normal size. Now, you're thinking like the emerging group of nanotechnologists whose growing dexterity at fashioning new materials and devices may eventually improve every arena of technology, from aerospace to drug development. While many researchers focus on developing tools for working on nanoscale materials, others are pursuing a virtual pathway toward nanotechnology applications. As ever-more powerful computers have become ever more affordable, computational nanoscientists can readily simulate materials atom by atom. (ScienceNews 2/7/04) http://www.sciencenews.org/20040207/bob8.asp

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html
nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb  8 21:30:09 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 13:30:09 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] pigeons
In-Reply-To: <HSS9R5$229C122653EADC5F7194BB72BEFE4241@libero.it>
Message-ID: <000701c3ee8a$ba909180$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> scerir at libero.it
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] pigeons
> 
> 
> Spike:
> > When I read this I had to just stop and laugh my
> > fanny off. 
> 
> A friend wrote this, to another list, about the same topic...
> :-)

I don't see why we didn't think of this before.  That
is how I used to navigate when I was flying: look at
the roads.  You already know what they look like, and
they are most likely going the same place you are, the
winds don't matter, and if you get in trouble you can
always go down and land on one of em.  The interstate
freeways are specifically designed to allow troubled
planes to land on them in emergencies.  Fortunate thing
the landing speed for a small plane is right about
the speed of traffic on a freeway: they *will* see
you coming down.

Pigeons were bred for homing well after roads already
existed in England, so it all makes perfect sense to me.

spike



From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Sun Feb  8 21:54:56 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 15:54:56 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ping
References: <8727DE5B-5A6A-11D8-9ABC-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE22nCJhXDLed0004e976@hotmail.com>

pong
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Samantha Atkins" <samantha at objectent.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:10 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] ping


> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sun Feb  8 23:57:50 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 16:57:50 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Common Errors: an excellent site
Message-ID: <4026CCFE.85FFFEC7@mindspring.com>

For Jack Kolb or anyone who has to do a lot of scientific or other forms of
research writing, the following website can be highly recommended. Language
points can easily be clicked on, possibly making it much easier to use than
the original book in hard-cover. The host has obviously gone to a lot of
effort to make the categories and issues easily accessible:

< http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors >


Sender:
Paul W Harrison
________
interEnglish (Finland)


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From support at imminst.org  Mon Feb  9 00:23:56 2004
From: support at imminst.org (support at imminst.org)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 18:23:56 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst Update
Message-ID: <4026d31c1ec63@imminst.org>

Immortality Institute ~ For Infinite Lifespans
Mission: End the Blight of Involuntary Death


ImmInst Chat - Mike Lorry
**********************
Free State Project & Libertarian Issues Mike Lorrey 
joins ImmInst to discuss the Free State Project and 
Libertarian Issues as they relate to immortalism. 

Chat Time: Sunday Feb 8 @ 8 PM Eastern
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=63&t=2937&s=


Summit - Vital Progress "VP"
**********************
In mid-Feb. 2004, Extropy Institute(ExI) hosts an 
online Summit to take a look at the "Beyond Therapy" 
Report produced by President Bush's Bioethics Council. 
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=99&t=3028&st=0#entry24956


John Sperling - Anti-aging Quest
**********************
Brian Alexander, author of Rapture: How Biotech 
Became the New Religion, reports that University 
of Phoenix founder, John Sperling, plans to invest 
$3 billion in anti-aging research upon his death. 
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=69&t=3006&st=0&#entry25713



To be removed from all of our mailing lists, click here:
http://www.imminst.org/archive/mailinglists/mailinglists.php?p=mlist&rem=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


From riel at surriel.com  Mon Feb  9 01:33:58 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 20:33:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402082032220.23704@imladris.surriel.com>

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:

> One has to wonder what open source development of the Mars Rover
> software might have been capable of?

While I am a very big open source proponent myself,
it will be worth realising that in this case it
probably wouldn't have helped much, if any.

For one, only NASA seems to have the hardware to
run these programs on, so there won't be many home
users reporting bugs and sending in patches...

Open source works best when you have multiple
participants.

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Mon Feb  9 02:08:03 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:08:03 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] pigeons
In-Reply-To: <000701c3ee8a$ba909180$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <HSS9R5$229C122653EADC5F7194BB72BEFE4241@libero.it>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208192412.0296bbe8@mail.comcast.net>

At 01:30 PM 2/8/2004 -0800, Spike wrote:

>Pigeons were bred for homing well after roads already
>existed in England, so it all makes perfect sense to me.

I don't think the sequence is necessarily relevant. There are many examples 
of animals adapting their behavior in response to humans and human 
technology, from begging for food to taking up residence in man-made 
structures.

The tests would, I suppose, to take homing pigeons to wilderness and see 
how they navigate and to look at migratory birds and see if they ever rely 
on man-made or natural landmarks.


-- David Lubkin.




From dgc at cox.net  Mon Feb  9 02:16:44 2004
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:16:44 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402082032220.23704@imladris.surriel.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402082032220.23704@imladris.surriel.com>
Message-ID: <4026ED8C.9010707@cox.net>

Rik van Riel wrote:

>On Sat, 7 Feb 2004, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
>
>  
>
>>One has to wonder what open source development of the Mars Rover
>>software might have been capable of?
>>    
>>
>
>While I am a very big open source proponent myself,
>it will be worth realising that in this case it
>probably wouldn't have helped much, if any.
>
>For one, only NASA seems to have the hardware to
>run these programs on, so there won't be many home
>users reporting bugs and sending in patches...
>
>Open source works best when you have multiple
>participants.
>
>Rik
>  
>
In this case NASA was using variants of commercial hardwrae and software.
Specifically, they were using a PPC variant CPU and VxWorks as the operating
system. The bug occurred when they filled the FLASH disk. This problem 
is not
unique to NASA's hardware. Use of an open-source OS would therefore have
been useful. Among other things, if they had been using an open embedded OS,
they could have published all the code and asked for volunteer 
reviewers. You cannot
easily do this with VxWorks code, because the volunteers would need VxWorks
licenses to run the code in emulation.

There are several viable embedded OSes. Linux is quite suitable when you 
have as much
Flash and RAM as NASA has available (512MB and 256MB respectively) Linux can
run easily on a Palm pilot wiht 8MB, and can be cut down much further if 
needed.



From extropy at unreasonable.com  Mon Feb  9 02:28:41 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 21:28:41 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>

Thinking about animals adapting in the wake of humans got me wondering 
about animals in the wake of transhumans.

As you envision the world of tomorrow -- nanotech, genemod, space-faring, 
uploading, AI/IA -- what do you want or anticipate for animalia?

Some options:

(a)  Migrate people and industry off-world, and turn the planet into a 
nature preserve
(b)  Restore recently- or long-extinct species
(c)  Create new or variant species for art, entertainment, utility
(d)  Take species with us to space
(e)  Modify species to suit non-terrestrial planetary environments
(f)  Increase species sentience (a la Clifford Simak or Cordwainer Smith)
(g) Increase sentience of living animals
(h)  Upload, to transhumanely clear the way for disassembling the planet
(i)  Move to an L-5 style habitat
(j)  Disassemble the planet without removing or uploading the animals
(k)  Leave animalia to their own devices


-- David Lubkin.




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 03:29:24 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:29:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402082032220.23704@imladris.surriel.com>
Message-ID: <20040209032924.13084.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Rik van Riel <riel at surriel.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> 
> > One has to wonder what open source development of the Mars Rover
> > software might have been capable of?
> 
> While I am a very big open source proponent myself,
> it will be worth realising that in this case it
> probably wouldn't have helped much, if any.
> 
> For one, only NASA seems to have the hardware to
> run these programs on, so there won't be many home
> users reporting bugs and sending in patches...

Yes, this is a point. It also seems that this computer system is common
to quite a number of NASA probes.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 03:32:30 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 19:32:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] pigeons
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208192412.0296bbe8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20040209033230.7759.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:

> 
> The tests would, I suppose, to take homing pigeons to wilderness and
> see how they navigate and to look at migratory birds and see if they
> ever rely on man-made or natural landmarks.

I would suppose that they evolved an ability to follow river and stream
systems, and from this, road tracking abilities were a natural development.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 03:51:20 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:51:20 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
References: <20040208175217.12588.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Law9-OE274Atg2c7qIA00000ac3@hotmail.com>

If you read the article, there are several examples of people with
neurological disorders that prevent them from walking properly. To them the
segway is more like a prosthetic limb, it allows them to move in ways
otherwise impossible. They are unable to sit un a wheelchair for extended
periods of time and the segway gives them better interaction with other
people.

This is a precursor to actual body mods that will replace or augment damaged
muscles or minds.

It's pretty short-sited of disney to disallow such devices.


BAL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World


> --- Brian Alexander Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The segway can be seen as a body modification so
> > it's user becomes sort of a
> > cyborg (especially in the case of otherwise disabled
> > persons).
>
> Not really.  It's a lot closer to the common concept
> of "vehicle" than "body modification".  (Of course,
> one could argue that most vehicles could be seen as
> extensions of the body.  But this ignores the reason
> we distinguish vehicles from their drivers/pilots in
> the first place.)
>
> > I guess this is an example of the public not coping
> > with transhumanist
> > themes very well.
>
> Not really.  Segways were given a chance, and proved
> that they can easily become unsafe under common
> conditions (specifically, when the battery runs low or
> when driven by an uncautious person).
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 03:53:33 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee)
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2004 22:53:33 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
References: <20040208184148.74331.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Law9-OE49h77Tejl9Rd0004065d@hotmail.com>

Luckily there is a simple solution to the "running out of power" problem.
Monitor your energy via that handy battery life dial on the segway.

This is a minor problem that hasn't stopped the 5,000 purchasers of segways.

You may as well avoid cars since running out of fuel at 85mph can cause
harm.

BAL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:41 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World


> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > --- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> > > Not really.  Segways were given a chance, and
> > proved
> > > that they can easily become unsafe under common
> > > conditions (specifically, when the battery runs
> > low or
> > > when driven by an uncautious person).
> >
> > WHich is a bogus application of the Precautionary
> > Principle. Common
> > bicycles can cause fatalities if you go fast enough
> > with them,
> > especially coming down the steep hills of San
> > Francisco. So what?
>
> Those conditions aren't as common.  Though, perhaps
> "when the battery runs low" is the one that should be
> focussed on: when other vehicles run out of power,
> they tend to stop (modulo gravity, but brake failures
> aren't that common either).  So do Segways, but in
> said situations, they stop in ways injurious to their
> users.  (Or so I've heard; I could well have been
> misinformed.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb  9 10:18:55 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:18:55 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <Law9-OE49h77Tejl9Rd0004065d@hotmail.com>
References: <20040208184148.74331.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com>
	<Law9-OE49h77Tejl9Rd0004065d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040209101855.GI15132@leitl.org>

On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 10:53:33PM -0500, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:

> Luckily there is a simple solution to the "running out of power" problem.
> Monitor your energy via that handy battery life dial on the segway.

You don't get it. Empirically, people don't do that. People don't wear
helmets, and they behave like jerks when sharing the same space as
pedestrians. That thing didn't get banned for nothing. 

I don't think Segways would have these problems where there are lots of
dedicated bike lanes (and where pedestrians are trained to share a part of
the sidewalk with cyclists -- which do wear helmets here).

I fail to see a need for an expensive vehicle where walking or cycling do
nicely. I can get a very good used bike for $250, and that one doesn't need
recharging, and goes faster. Plus, it helps you to get rid of those pesky calories.
 
> This is a minor problem that hasn't stopped the 5,000 purchasers of segways.

Gosh, so they will start designing cities around it any time now, I guess.
 
> You may as well avoid cars since running out of fuel at 85mph can cause
> harm.

Completely different failure mode.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From amara at amara.com  Mon Feb  9 10:40:28 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:40:28 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Dawn mission
Message-ID: <p05100300bc4d0946ad13@[150.146.134.133]>


The Dawn mission has been confirmed! This is a NASA mission that is
going to the asteroid belt to visit Ceres ('planetoid') and Vesta.
The spacecraft has an ion drive and will spend some months in orbit
around each asteroid. The design work (last two years; space
agencies involved: NASA+ASI+DLR+ESA) is more or less completed, the
parts are on hand or ordered, and some building has begun (Entering
phase C). It's a tight schedule and I hope we didn't lose time from
the last weeks.

This mission was cancelled over Christmas, and all of the teams
(I'm on the Italian infrared spectrometer team) had some hard work
in  the last weeks  to address some general mission  concerns as well
as well as reminding the space agencies of the particular science
involved. I hope it is smooth here on out. Launch is in 2006.

http://www-ssc.igpp.ucla.edu/dawn/
-- 

Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF),
Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR,
Roma, ITALIA     Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb  9 12:13:43 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:13:43 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20040209121343.GO15132@leitl.org>

On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 09:28:41PM -0500, David Lubkin wrote:

> Thinking about animals adapting in the wake of humans got me wondering 
> about animals in the wake of transhumans.
> 
> As you envision the world of tomorrow -- nanotech, genemod, space-faring, 
> uploading, AI/IA -- what do you want or anticipate for animalia?
> 
> Some options:
> 
> (a)  Migrate people and industry off-world, and turn the planet into a 
> nature preserve

While there is lots of material in shallow gravity wells, eventually it will
run out. Disassembly is just somewhat delayed.

> (b)  Restore recently- or long-extinct species

Some people will probably do that.

> (c)  Create new or variant species for art, entertainment, utility

We've been doing that for a while.

> (d)  Take species with us to space

Difficult, if you're solid state. Habitats have lousy ROI vs. solid state
emulation.

> (e)  Modify species to suit non-terrestrial planetary environments

Sure, see (h)

> (f)  Increase species sentience (a la Clifford Simak or Cordwainer Smith)

Allow ascension, rather, provide optimal virtual environment for the rest.

> (g) Increase sentience of living animals

Not unless they want it.

> (h)  Upload, to transhumanely clear the way for disassembling the planet

This is a desirable outcome, given the alternatives. Definitely a cause 
for transhuman environmentalists.

> (i)  Move to an L-5 style habitat

???

> (j)  Disassemble the planet without removing or uploading the animals
> (k)  Leave animalia to their own devices

(j),(k) are both the same scenarios.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb  9 12:49:29 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:49:29 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <4026ED8C.9010707@cox.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402082032220.23704@imladris.surriel.com>
	<4026ED8C.9010707@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20040209124929.GQ15132@leitl.org>

On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 09:16:44PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote:

> In this case NASA was using variants of commercial hardwrae and software.

Commercially available, yes. Commodity, no. The components were military
versions (rad-hardened).

> Specifically, they were using a PPC variant CPU and VxWorks as the operating

Pretty good choice, given that the hardware choice is frozen early in mission
design. The reason the hardware looks dated is not just that military
versions are tagging a few generations behind -- the design *is* dated.

> system. The bug occurred when they filled the FLASH disk. This problem 
> is not
> unique to NASA's hardware. Use of an open-source OS would therefore have

Which open source OS? Microkernel, hard realtime, runtime patching? There is
no such OS.

> been useful. Among other things, if they had been using an open embedded OS,

Which one?

> they could have published all the code and asked for volunteer 
> reviewers. You cannot

They would have to release the emulator as well. Most open source people are
unfamiliar with deep embedded development. They can't code for it, they can't
debug for it. Only very few of them can at all produce code capable of
passing harsh aerospace quality control.

> easily do this with VxWorks code, because the volunteers would need VxWorks
> licenses to run the code in emulation.

It's too bad we don't have a hard realtime kernel that is open sourced.
Maybe, one day, and a mil-spec open core to match. Meanwhile, I'm not holding
my breath.
 
> There are several viable embedded OSes. Linux is quite suitable when you 

Linux is extremely unsuitable for aerospace hard realtime embeddeds.

> have as much
> Flash and RAM as NASA has available (512MB and 256MB respectively) Linux can

128 MBytes flash.

> run easily on a Palm pilot wiht 8MB, and can be cut down much further if 
> needed.

Most of the code onboard isn't the OS. That spacecraft have a lot of other
things to do than to run desktopcentric bloated monolithic operating systems.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 14:42:33 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 06:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <20040209101855.GI15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20040209144233.84097.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 10:53:33PM -0500, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:
> 
> > Luckily there is a simple solution to the "running out of power"
> > problem.
> > Monitor your energy via that handy battery life dial on the segway.
> 
> You don't get it. Empirically, people don't do that. People don't
> wear helmets, and they behave like jerks when sharing the same
> space as pedestrians. That thing didn't get banned for nothing. 

It got banned in SF because it wasn't a bicycle. Gene, have you ever
pedalled up Russian Hill? That is quite a bit more than 'burning a few
calories'.

> 
> I don't think Segways would have these problems where there are lots
> of dedicated bike lanes (and where pedestrians are trained to share a
> part of the sidewalk with cyclists -- which do wear helmets here).

The banning of the Segway is a real life impact of the stupidity of the
Precautionary Principle. I am shocked that we have people here
defending such idiocy.

>  
> > This is a minor problem that hasn't stopped the 5,000 purchasers of
> segways.
> 
> Gosh, so they will start designing cities around it any time now, I
> guess.

Actually, that is an idea being considered for the Free Town Project...

>  
> > You may as well avoid cars since running out of fuel at 85mph can
> > cause
> > harm.
> 
> Completely different failure mode.

Yeah, sure, on a busy highway. What again is the kinetic energy of a
2000 lb car at that velocity? Thats 21 million lb ft^2/sec^2

A Segway in tip over mode is going 8 mph. Weight of you and it, lets
say 250 lb = 36,000 lb ft^2/sec^2, or less than two tenths of one
percent of the kinetic energy of the car running out of gas.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 15:48:09 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 10:48:09 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
Message-ID: <Law9-F95xDkZqT7Ll7n0000bf25@hotmail.com>

The segway was being used by people who were unable to operate a bike or 
walk properly. Disney wouldn't allow them in because it's not an 
FDA-approved medical device. You tell the guy with MS that he's acting like 
a jerk on his segway.

The disney parks have staff members who use a segway, so it's not a 
logistical problem of lack of bike lanes.

Also, disney aready rents out scooters (for $40+ a day) to people too lazy 
to walk (or disabled) and there have been few incidents of "scooter rage".

The fact that you fail to see a need should not restrict others. Need and 
want are different things at times and if someone wants to pay $5k so they 
don't have to walk, let them. If they act like asses then they can be banned 
from the park (just as walkers who act like asses are).

BAL

>From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
>Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:18:55 +0100
>
>On Sun, Feb 08, 2004 at 10:53:33PM -0500, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:
>
> > Luckily there is a simple solution to the "running out of power" 
>problem.
> > Monitor your energy via that handy battery life dial on the segway.
>
>You don't get it. Empirically, people don't do that. People don't wear
>helmets, and they behave like jerks when sharing the same space as
>pedestrians. That thing didn't get banned for nothing.
>
>I don't think Segways would have these problems where there are lots of
>dedicated bike lanes (and where pedestrians are trained to share a part of
>the sidewalk with cyclists -- which do wear helmets here).
>
>I fail to see a need for an expensive vehicle where walking or cycling do
>nicely. I can get a very good used bike for $250, and that one doesn't need
>recharging, and goes faster. Plus, it helps you to get rid of those pesky 
>calories.
>
> > This is a minor problem that hasn't stopped the 5,000 purchasers of 
>segways.
>
>Gosh, so they will start designing cities around it any time now, I guess.
>
> > You may as well avoid cars since running out of fuel at 85mph can cause
> > harm.
>
>Completely different failure mode.
>
>-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
>______________________________________________________________
>ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
>8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
>http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
><< attach4 >>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_________________________________________________________________
Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and 
beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx



From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Mon Feb  9 16:15:31 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:15:31 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] microscope watches carbon nanotubes grow
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402091714090.6091@hercules>


As reported on slashdot:

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8205/8205notw2.html

I'm unable to download the videos, due to the high traffic, but the space
elevator is a bit more real now :)

Alfio


From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com  Mon Feb  9 16:33:01 2004
From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:33:01 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Common Errors: an excellent site
Message-ID: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB313F@amazemail2.amazeent.com>

On the page "Linking to 'Common Errors in English'" the author requests
that all links go through http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/. He
additionally requests that if you haven't visited that page, then
do so now :)

Acy

[ -----Original Message-----
[ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
[ [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
[ Terry W. Colvin
[ Sent: Sunday, 08 February, 2004 17:58
[ To: Extropy-chat at extropy.org; Forteana /Alternate Orphan/; 
[ uasr at topica.com; UFO UpDates - Toronto
[ Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Common Errors: an excellent site
[ 
[ 
[ For Jack Kolb or anyone who has to do a lot of scientific or 
[ other forms of
[ research writing, the following website can be highly 
[ recommended. Language
[ points can easily be clicked on, possibly making it much 
[ easier to use than
[ the original book in hard-cover. The host has obviously gone 
[ to a lot of
[ effort to make the categories and issues easily accessible:
[ 
[ < http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors >
[ 
[ 
[ Sender:
[ Paul W Harrison
[ ________
[ interEnglish (Finland)
[ 
[ 
[ -- 
[ "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 
[ 1992, Frank Rice
[ 
[ 
[ Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < 
[ fortean1 at mindspring.com >
[      Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
[ Home Page: < 
[ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/89[ 58/index.html >
[ 
[ Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * 
[ TLCB *
[       U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
[ ------------
[ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
[    TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam 
[ veterans,
[ Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]
[ _______________________________________________
[ extropy-chat mailing list
[ extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
[ http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
[ 


From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com  Mon Feb  9 16:33:01 2004
From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 08:33:01 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Common Errors: an excellent site
Message-ID: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB313F@amazemail2.amazeent.com>

On the page "Linking to 'Common Errors in English'" the author requests
that all links go through http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/. He
additionally requests that if you haven't visited that page, then
do so now :)

Acy

[ -----Original Message-----
[ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
[ [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
[ Terry W. Colvin
[ Sent: Sunday, 08 February, 2004 17:58
[ To: Extropy-chat at extropy.org; Forteana /Alternate Orphan/; 
[ uasr at topica.com; UFO UpDates - Toronto
[ Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Common Errors: an excellent site
[ 
[ 
[ For Jack Kolb or anyone who has to do a lot of scientific or 
[ other forms of
[ research writing, the following website can be highly 
[ recommended. Language
[ points can easily be clicked on, possibly making it much 
[ easier to use than
[ the original book in hard-cover. The host has obviously gone 
[ to a lot of
[ effort to make the categories and issues easily accessible:
[ 
[ < http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/errors.html#errors >
[ 
[ 
[ Sender:
[ Paul W Harrison
[ ________
[ interEnglish (Finland)
[ 
[ 
[ -- 
[ "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 
[ 1992, Frank Rice
[ 
[ 
[ Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < 
[ fortean1 at mindspring.com >
[      Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
[ Home Page: < 
[ http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/89[ 58/index.html >
[ 
[ Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * 
[ TLCB *
[       U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
[ ------------
[ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
[    TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam 
[ veterans,
[ Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]
[ _______________________________________________
[ extropy-chat mailing list
[ extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
[ http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
[ 


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb  9 16:57:50 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:57:50 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <Law9-F95xDkZqT7Ll7n0000bf25@hotmail.com>
References: <Law9-F95xDkZqT7Ll7n0000bf25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040209165750.GC15132@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 10:48:09AM -0500, Brian Lee wrote:

> The segway was being used by people who were unable to operate a bike or 
> walk properly. Disney wouldn't allow them in because it's not an 
> FDA-approved medical device. You tell the guy with MS that he's acting like 
> a jerk on his segway.

I wasn't commenting specifically about Disney. I understand the reason
Segways were banned in SF were not all users with MS.

	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=segway+san+francisco&btnG=Google+Search
 
> The disney parks have staff members who use a segway, so it's not a 
> logistical problem of lack of bike lanes.

I think we can assume that if you'll get paid to use a vehicle
professionally (there's a motivation: your job is on the line), 
and get trained properly, and use it in restricted areas
(i.e., not random geeks cruising the sidewalks of San Francisco, which
doesn't compare favourably to an European city equipped with bike lanes and
pedestrians who understand what these marks on the pavement mean, and know
that they'll get hurt, if suddenly stepping onto a bike lane without
looking) you can assume not too much will happen.
 
> Also, disney aready rents out scooters (for $40+ a day) to people too lazy 
> to walk (or disabled) and there have been few incidents of "scooter rage".

Again, I commented on SF banning Segways. Sorry if haven't made that clear.
 
> The fact that you fail to see a need should not restrict others. Need and 

I have no trouble with Segways on sidewalks of my city -- which will
likely mandate helmets for riders, though. I'm not restricing anybody either --
anybody is welcome to his bit of free cranial trauma -- please don't drive
over my toes, though. I really hate that. 

> want are different things at times and if someone wants to pay $5k so they 
> don't have to walk, let them. If they act like asses then they can be 

Again: I have no trouble with seeing Segways in the streets. Or people
growing tree rings of lard; as long as it doesn't result in me paying higher
health insurance, that is.

> banned from the park (just as walkers who act like asses are).

They're probably on drugs; the only way to enjoy Disneyland.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From nanowave at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  9 17:52:12 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 09:52:12 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
References: <Law9-F95xDkZqT7Ll7n0000bf25@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004301c3ef35$72ac3760$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

List administrator, please block all Eugen posts until such time as he gets
his shots.



From nanowave at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  9 18:06:38 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 10:06:38 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] BBC editor caught in "compromising" position with
	Prince Charles
References: <20040209144233.84097.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c3ef37$767f4d80$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Well, I don't know if there's any truth to to the story that Prince Charles
was seen entering a VERY SMALL washroom stall at Heathrow Airport with the
Editor of the BBC, but since the new editorial paradigm seems to be "just
run with it", I should also note that loud and rude grunting noises were
heard by a baggage handler in an adjacent stall.

http://nanodot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/07/0717252




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb  9 18:12:11 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:12:11 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <004301c3ef35$72ac3760$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
References: <Law9-F95xDkZqT7Ll7n0000bf25@hotmail.com>
	<004301c3ef35$72ac3760$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040209181211.GG15132@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:52:12AM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:

> List administrator, please block all Eugen posts until such time as he gets
> his shots.

I'm using a well-debugged plain-text MUA, sign all my outgoing mail and run
more-or-less well-patched Linux for a specific reason. Either you're seeing a
forgery (and sent the message without checking the rich headers), or you
MUA isn't compliant with RFC 2015 -- which is a good bet, as you're running 
a well-known malware vector, namely Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158
It you're getting spurious virus warnings, it is of course also possible,
that you should get a better virus scanner.

If you'll see a good signature in a mail originated from 217.172.178.65 you
can assume the message is indeed from me (or that my machine has been
h4x0r3d, and the passphrase snarfed -- not impossible, but distinctly 
less likely, than me unknowingly sending out Microsoft malware).

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From eliasen at mindspring.com  Mon Feb  9 18:43:08 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:43:08 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <20040209144233.84097.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040209144233.84097.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4027D4BC.8070909@mindspring.com>


Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>>You may as well avoid cars since running out of fuel at 85mph can
>>>cause
>>>harm.
>>
>>Completely different failure mode.
> 
> Yeah, sure, on a busy highway. What again is the kinetic energy of a
> 2000 lb car at that velocity? Thats 21 million lb ft^2/sec^2

   Actually, it's 15.5 million lb ft^2/sec^2.  In Frink notation, (
http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/ )

   1/2 2000 lb (85 mph)^2 -> million lb ft^2/s^2
gives
   15.54

> A Segway in tip over mode is going 8 mph. Weight of you and it, lets
> say 250 lb = 36,000 lb ft^2/sec^2, or less than two tenths of one
> percent of the kinetic energy of the car running out of gas.

   This answer is actually 17,000 lb ft^2/sec^2.

1/2 250 lb (8 mph)^2 -> lb ft^2/s^2
   gives
  17209

   I'm not sure where the calculation went wrong, but this is the kind of
thing that Frink is designed to help you do effortlessly.

   The interesting thing about the Segway's design, or really most 2-wheel
balancing designs is that you actually have to speed up to stop.  The machine
has to go faster to get its wheels out in front of the center of mass.  The
harder you're going to brake, the faster the wheels have to go for a few seconds.

   Should a Segway be allowed in places that I can't take my 2-wheeled
(inline) electric scooter?  If so, why?  They both have approximately the same
mass, top speed, range, footprint, noise level, and more... and I get to sit
down.  Should I be able to drive it around the mall?  The nice thing is that I
could buy 33 of them (at $149) for the same price as one Segway, and if it
runs out of battery, it just eases to a stop...or I can use the handbrake.
But Segway is still cool.  I'm going to build my own stand-up-robot someday.

-- 
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb  9 19:11:42 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:11:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <20040209032924.13084.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402091047140.22938-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> --- Rik van Riel <riel at surriel.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 7 Feb 2004, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> >
> > > One has to wonder what open source development of the Mars Rover
> > > software might have been capable of?
> >
> > While I am a very big open source proponent myself,
> > it will be worth realising that in this case it
> > probably wouldn't have helped much, if any.
> >
> > For one, only NASA seems to have the hardware to
> > run these programs on, so there won't be many home
> > users reporting bugs and sending in patches...
>
> Yes, this is a point. It also seems that this computer system is common
> to quite a number of NASA probes.

I'm not sure of the extent to which Rik and Mike are
agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

But if you are disagreeing it ain't gonna cut the mustard.

In the first place to the best of my ability to determine thus
far the NASA probes (as well as many others) are running a
RAD hardened version of IBM processors that were common in the
early-to-mid '90s.  One would assume you can pick these up
(in the non-RAD hardened form) on eBay for pennies on the dollar.

Now, in the second place you are speaking to someone who helped
to write a PDP-10 simulator that ran on a PDP-11 (simulating a
mainframe on a minicomputer for those not versed in computer lore).
The software was actually used to recompile the Digital Equipment
Corporation PDP-11 Fortran Compiler which was written in Bliss-11 (the
compiler for which under normal circumstances only ran on PDP-10's).
I would have to think about it a bit but I think the recompilation
of the compiler may have taken longer (perhaps 1-2 months) than
writing and debugging the simulator took.

So there is no way in hell that you are going to convince me that
"only NASA seems to have the hardware" is an argument that is
going to cut the cake.

Except in the actual application (and Hello -- you have to be
in space where the RAD capability is a strong consideration) the
hardware doesn't friggen matter to the software.  If I don't have
the hardware I can simulate it.

Robert




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 19:25:01 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:25:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BBC editor caught in "compromising" position with
	Prince Charles
In-Reply-To: <004d01c3ef37$767f4d80$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040209192501.58530.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Well, I don't know if there's any truth to to the story that Prince
> Charles was seen entering a VERY SMALL washroom stall at Heathrow
> Airport with the Editor of the BBC, but since the new editorial
> paradigm seems to be "just run with it", I should also note that
> loud and rude grunting noises were heard by a baggage handler in
> an adjacent stall. 
> http://nanodot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/07/0717252

Gee, do you think the prince was hoeing his organic garden? Or would
you call that organic plumbing?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 19:28:22 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 11:28:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <20040209181211.GG15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20040209192822.63870.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:52:12AM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:
> 
> > List administrator, please block all Eugen posts until such time as
> > he gets his shots.
> 
> I'm using a well-debugged plain-text MUA, sign all my outgoing mail
> and run more-or-less well-patched Linux for a specific reason.
> Either you're seeing a
> forgery (and sent the message without checking the rich headers), or
> you MUA isn't compliant with RFC 2015 - which is a good bet, as
you're
> running a well-known malware vector, namely Microsoft Outlook Express
> 6.00.2800.1158

Sayeth Yahoo:
"Scan Results  [Back to Message]  
File name: file.bin 
File type: application/pgp-signature 
Scan result: No virus threat detected. Download Attachment "

Methinks the virus is the concept that there can be another operating
system but Windows. A dangerous one it is, indeed.


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 19:46:59 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:46:59 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ASTRO: Hubble breaking news...
References: <20040207193523.75382.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE3508kto8RJw00026be5@hotmail.com>

If they are going to sacrifice the Hubble, does this mean that anyone who
can reach it and service it before it falls to Earth can claim it as their
own? That's a lot of expensive equipment going to waste. Surely someone else
will take it on. This isn't MIR, it is the world's one and only kick-ass
Hubble orbital space telescope!

>From what I understand (and I may be wrong) all it needs is some new
gyroscopes and batteries. At the very least, couldn;t it be given a boost
into High Earth Orbit? This may give it some additional free time on the
cheap and fill some of that gap before thw James Webb comes online in 2011
(if it gets done in time).

Kevin Freels



From joe at barrera.org  Mon Feb  9 19:52:37 2004
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 11:52:37 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] BBC editor caught in "compromising" position with
	Prince Charles
In-Reply-To: <20040209192501.58530.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040209192501.58530.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4027E505.1020308@barrera.org>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

>Gee, do you think the prince was hoeing his organic garden? Or would
>you call that organic plumbing?
>  
>

I always thought that was spelled "orgasmic".

- Joe



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 20:02:22 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:02:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <4027D4BC.8070909@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20040209200222.71707.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Alan Eliasen <eliasen at mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >>>You may as well avoid cars since running out of fuel at 85mph can
> >>>cause
> >>>harm.
> >>
> >>Completely different failure mode.
> > 
> > Yeah, sure, on a busy highway. What again is the kinetic energy of
> a
> > 2000 lb car at that velocity? Thats 21 million lb ft^2/sec^2
> 
>    Actually, it's 15.5 million lb ft^2/sec^2.  In Frink notation, (
> http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/ )
> 
>    1/2 2000 lb (85 mph)^2 -> million lb ft^2/s^2
> gives
>    15.54

Ayup. I forgot the 1/2.

My point still holds. How dangerous is 15.54 million lb ft^2/sec^2 of
energy, vs 16,000? 16k is just a good shove. 15 million is fatal. Time
to start banning those cars. If Segway isn't good enough for the
streets of San Fran, then cars are a crime against humanity.

Or, we can just toss out the Precautionary Principle.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 20:15:21 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 12:15:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402091047140.22938-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040209201521.97483.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >
> > Yes, this is a point. It also seems that this computer system is
> > common to quite a number of NASA probes.
> 
> I'm not sure of the extent to which Rik and Mike are
> agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
> 
> But if you are disagreeing it ain't gonna cut the mustard.
> 
> In the first place to the best of my ability to determine thus
> far the NASA probes (as well as many others) are running a
> RAD hardened version of IBM processors that were common in the
> early-to-mid '90s.  One would assume you can pick these up
> (in the non-RAD hardened form) on eBay for pennies on the dollar.

I've got one in my office here. That is, I have a PC using a Power PC
200mhz chip sitting here, with a hosed hard drive.

I have no idea what particular board the Rover is using. I'm certain I
don't have it here. I certainly don't have any flash capacity here. 

That isn't the problem, though. VXware is a ruggedized OS that is built
to continuously self diagnose (note how it decided to send its own
diagnostics data back to NASA). It is not a desktop operating system,
it is an operating system for running stuff remotely and if needed,
autonomously. Lots of I/O capabilities.

Now, I don't doubt that one could use the linux kernel to develop a
similar operating system that would be open source, but you can't
convince me that you can pull SuSE off the shelf and use it to reliably
run a space probe. A Probux OS would require its own user community.

Rik's point here holds, the old IBM quote applies "There is a current
worldwide demand for 5 computers". There are what? a dozen probes in
space at the current time, run by 2-4 space agencies. That is some
market.

The Open Source method works well because you have thousands upon
thousands of developers and debuggers who do so because they use this
OS on their own equipment every day for every day purposes.

Now, unless you could make a screen saver emulator debugging and
testing an emulated version of the OS on desktop systems across the
country, you are not going to take advantage of the power of numbers
like you want to for Probux.

> 
> Except in the actual application (and Hello -- you have to be
> in space where the RAD capability is a strong consideration) the
> hardware doesn't friggen matter to the software.  If I don't have
> the hardware I can simulate it.

Sure you can. Gotta build your simulator inside a microwave oven,
though... ;)

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Mon Feb  9 20:51:38 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 12:51:38 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
References: <20040209192822.63870.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Ok, I've got SEVEN messages in my "deleted"  folder supposedly from Eugen
Leitl to ExI chat list. I could forward them back but wouldn't without your
request to do so. All messages appear to reply to various current topics but
include NOTHING in the message bodies. All include the following pair of
attachments ATT00035.txt and ATT00038.dat.

Sincere apologies to Eugen if this unprecidented problem is somehow only at
my end, though I would appreciate a jargon-free explanation, not
MUAMALWARERFC2015 purple elephant dingy dongs allright?

Or did I miss the extropy-chat guidelines that specify:

-Piss off if you use Outlook Express
-You're not wanted if you don't have the Penguin
-You're a dolt if you don't spend hours and hours figuring out what a MUA
MALWARE FC2015's are.

Russell Evermore


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez


>
> --- Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:52:12AM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:
> >
> > > List administrator, please block all Eugen posts until such time as
> > > he gets his shots.
> >
> > I'm using a well-debugged plain-text MUA, sign all my outgoing mail
> > and run more-or-less well-patched Linux for a specific reason.
> > Either you're seeing a
> > forgery (and sent the message without checking the rich headers), or
> > you MUA isn't compliant with RFC 2015 - which is a good bet, as
> you're
> > running a well-known malware vector, namely Microsoft Outlook Express
> > 6.00.2800.1158
>
> Sayeth Yahoo:
> "Scan Results  [Back to Message]
> File name: file.bin
> File type: application/pgp-signature
> Scan result: No virus threat detected. Download Attachment "
>
> Methinks the virus is the concept that there can be another operating
> system but Windows. A dangerous one it is, indeed.
>
>
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From eliasen at mindspring.com  Mon Feb  9 21:23:16 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:23:16 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <20040209200222.71707.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040209200222.71707.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4027FA44.5020709@mindspring.com>


Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>>>Completely different failure mode.
>>>
>>>Yeah, sure, on a busy highway. What again is the kinetic energy of
>>
>>a
>>
>>>2000 lb car at that velocity? Thats 21 million lb ft^2/sec^2
>>
>>   Actually, it's 15.5 million lb ft^2/sec^2.  In Frink notation, (
>>http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/ )
>>
>>   1/2 2000 lb (85 mph)^2 -> million lb ft^2/s^2
>>gives
>>   15.54
> 
> Ayup. I forgot the 1/2.

   Hmmm... that still doesn't account for the discrepancy.  You would have
gotten 31 million.  Errors like this are why I made Frink in the first place.

   And, for communicating with the rest of the world, we'd probably want the
result in joules, which is just as easy:

  1/2 2000 lb (85 mph)^2 -> J

   Ah, the tower of Babel has fallen.  :)

-- 
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 21:28:25 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:28:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040209212825.23948.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Ok, I've got SEVEN messages in my "deleted"  folder supposedly from
> Eugen Leitl to ExI chat list. I could forward them back but wouldn't
> without your
> request to do so. All messages appear to reply to various current
> topics but
> include NOTHING in the message bodies. All include the following pair
> of attachments ATT00035.txt and ATT00038.dat.

Likely someone else with Outlook who has Eugenes and your addresses in
the contacts database is infected, or was infected. Their machine sent
the virus to you, spoofing itself as Eugene. You can get some idea of
who that person is by displaying the full header information of the
email message. This will display the various IP addresses and
server/relay names the message passed through and originated from.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 21:30:24 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 13:30:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Frink
In-Reply-To: <4027FA44.5020709@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20040209213024.36089.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Alan Eliasen <eliasen at mindspring.com> wrote:

> 
>    Hmmm... that still doesn't account for the discrepancy.  You would
> have
> gotten 31 million.  Errors like this are why I made Frink in the
> first place.

Perhaps I mistyped...

> 
>    And, for communicating with the rest of the world, we'd probably
> want the result in joules, which is just as easy:
> 
>   1/2 2000 lb (85 mph)^2 -> J
> 
>    Ah, the tower of Babel has fallen.  :)

Do you have a non-wireless version for Palm 3.5?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From eliasen at mindspring.com  Mon Feb  9 21:48:02 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 14:48:02 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Frink
In-Reply-To: <20040209213024.36089.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040209213024.36089.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <40280012.5060807@mindspring.com>


Mike Lorrey wrote:
> Do you have a non-wireless version for Palm 3.5?

   (Referring to Frink, http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/ )

   No, but I sure wish I did.  The problem is finding a Java Virtual Machine.
 There may be some companies that sell a for-pay JVM that will run on Palm
3.5, but I haven't found one that looks like it would work.  In theory, if the
device can run Java 1.1 (Frink runs fine even on the cut-down PersonalJava
1.1,) then it can run Frink.  But Palm only looks like they'll be supporting a
reasonable JVM on Palm OS 5, and that only later this year (they do have a
version you can download now for that OS, but it doesn't even support
floating-point, which I still use in a few places (most math is actually
arbitrary-precision in Frink.))  Even so, it looks like it'll be severely
memory-limited.

   I'll let you know if this changes, but it's becoming less and less likely
that any companies are going to make a workable JVM for that platform (which
is what I use too.)

-- 
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb  9 22:05:03 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:05:03 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
References: <20040209192822.63870.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
	<002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040209220503.GK15132@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 12:51:38PM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:

> Ok, I've got SEVEN messages in my "deleted"  folder supposedly from Eugen
> Leitl to ExI chat list. I could forward them back but wouldn't without your

You didn't even bother to check the originating address. You just complained to
the list, loudly, that "Eugen got Klez, don't let him post here". 

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52174,00.html

The only way to know for sure is to check the signature. 

> request to do so. All messages appear to reply to various current topics but
> include NOTHING in the message bodies. All include the following pair of
> attachments ATT00035.txt and ATT00038.dat.

Sure looks like Klez to me. Or, Microsoft ignoring an IETF RFC. From 1996, no
less (no surprise there). Which is a signature. You probably heard of IETF?
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2015.txt 
You might not have heard of MIME: http://hunnysoft.com/mime/

Perhaps you've heard of that Intarweb thing. 
 
> Sincere apologies to Eugen if this unprecidented problem is somehow only at

I'm not going to accept that apology, because white man speaks with forked
tongue, vide infra:

> my end, though I would appreciate a jargon-free explanation, not
> MUAMALWARERFC2015 purple elephant dingy dongs allright?

I presume http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Rants/gpg-signed-mail.html goes in
more detail.

"As to the immediate problem, the short answer is that:

    * Your mailer is broken.
    * This is your problem, not mine.
    * File a bug report with your vendor.
    * I'm going to continue signing my mail, and if you don't change your end
    * of things, you're going to continue having problems reading it.

      In some cases (you're cute, my mom, or you're offering sufficient
reasons per hour), I'll make exceptions, but this is on a case-by-case basis,
and I'm intentionally leaving it as a PITA manual process so that each of us
is reminded it's a bad idea: me, when I do it, you, when I forget and you're
stuck with unreadable mail from me. GET A REAL MAILER.
    * No, this isn't a virus, a bomb, a bug, a worm, or any other executable
    * code. And if it is, that's your problem, not mine.
    * If your IT or MIS department is brain-dead enough to actually strip off
    * these attachments before you get your mail, I'm going to laugh at you
    * in public. Sorry, this ain't the sympathy department. There's a nice
    * rant below about why this is such a pathetic action though. You might
    * enjoy reading it.

The long answer is the rest of this document."
 
> Or did I miss the extropy-chat guidelines that specify:
> 
> -Piss off if you use Outlook Express

No. I could hardly care less which MUA you're using (because I don't see
Microsoft viruses, otherwise you'd be one of the problems, by insisting to
run the single MUA responsible for >95% of all Microsoft malware, did I
already mention that? I believe I did). Just don't tell a public list of 
more or less technical people I'm sending you a Microsoft virus. And then 
complain, again to the list, about your personal choices in MUAs. 

Implying, that I'm somehow at fault. Excuse me? This is the former extropians
list. We used to have standards. Are you try to set a new low for this
list? 

> -You're not wanted if you don't have the Penguin

Again, I could hardly care less which MUA you use. Just don't bitch and moan
about it. 

> -You're a dolt if you don't spend hours and hours figuring out what a MUA
> MALWARE FC2015's are.

Actually, if you post to this list, and have never heard of a frigging search
engine my patience kinda starts wearing thin.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=RFC+2015&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=MUA+RFC+2015&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=malware&btnG=Google+Search

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb  9 22:07:03 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Frink
In-Reply-To: <40280012.5060807@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20040209220703.644.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Alan Eliasen <eliasen at mindspring.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > Do you have a non-wireless version for Palm 3.5?
> 
>    (Referring to Frink, http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/ )
> 
>    I'll let you know if this changes, but it's becoming less and less
> likely that any companies are going to make a workable JVM for that
> platform (which is what I use too.)

I'm running a Handspring Visor Pro, and am picking up some memory
modules cheap ($10 ea) upon which I want to load some useful tools for
my HEAP. Frink sounds like it is useful.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 22:22:11 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:22:11 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
References: <20040209192822.63870.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Law9-OE64TxR8quc1Mn0003d66c@hotmail.com>

Lately my Outlook Express has been blocking all attachments that could
contain viruses. It's pretty annoying as all of Eugen's messages have been
blocked as the body is a text attachment.

The hotmail browser client still view them properly. It's midly frustrating.

BAL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez


>
> --- Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 09:52:12AM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:
> >
> > > List administrator, please block all Eugen posts until such time as
> > > he gets his shots.
> >
> > I'm using a well-debugged plain-text MUA, sign all my outgoing mail
> > and run more-or-less well-patched Linux for a specific reason.
> > Either you're seeing a
> > forgery (and sent the message without checking the rich headers), or
> > you MUA isn't compliant with RFC 2015 - which is a good bet, as
> you're
> > running a well-known malware vector, namely Microsoft Outlook Express
> > 6.00.2800.1158
>
> Sayeth Yahoo:
> "Scan Results  [Back to Message]
> File name: file.bin
> File type: application/pgp-signature
> Scan result: No virus threat detected. Download Attachment "
>
> Methinks the virus is the concept that there can be another operating
> system but Windows. A dangerous one it is, indeed.
>
>
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 22:34:06 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:34:06 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
Message-ID: <Law9-F60qMU6JlZ9nqg0004e785@hotmail.com>

The problem is that your content is sent as an attachment. If you did your 
signatures inline then outlook express wouldn't have a problem with your 
messages.

Yes you are correct in your manner of posting and are following generally 
accepted rfcs, but outlook still has a problem. Outlook is a very popular 
mail client (perhaps the most popular) and not allowing your messages to be 
read by so many is a bit of a problem. If you're content with not 
communicating with the great unwashed masses (humour/sarcasm) then continue 
with your email preferences. Otherwise, try to find some way of posting that 
outlook likes.

Personally, I enjoy reading your posts and switching over to hotmail's html 
interface is a nuisance. (No, I won't switch from my hotmail account because 
it's too much personal branding to overcome. Outlook Express is the only 
client that supports hotmail addresses.)

BAL

>From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
>To: Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca>,   ExI chat list 
><extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
>Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 23:05:03 +0100
>
>On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 12:51:38PM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:
>
> > Ok, I've got SEVEN messages in my "deleted"  folder supposedly from 
>Eugen
> > Leitl to ExI chat list. I could forward them back but wouldn't without 
>your
>
>You didn't even bother to check the originating address. You just 
>complained to
>the list, loudly, that "Eugen got Klez, don't let him post here".
>
>http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52174,00.html
>
>The only way to know for sure is to check the signature.
>
> > request to do so. All messages appear to reply to various current topics 
>but
> > include NOTHING in the message bodies. All include the following pair of
> > attachments ATT00035.txt and ATT00038.dat.
>
>Sure looks like Klez to me. Or, Microsoft ignoring an IETF RFC. From 1996, 
>no
>less (no surprise there). Which is a signature. You probably heard of IETF?
>http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2015.txt
>You might not have heard of MIME: http://hunnysoft.com/mime/
>
>Perhaps you've heard of that Intarweb thing.
>
> > Sincere apologies to Eugen if this unprecidented problem is somehow only 
>at
>
>I'm not going to accept that apology, because white man speaks with forked
>tongue, vide infra:
>
> > my end, though I would appreciate a jargon-free explanation, not
> > MUAMALWARERFC2015 purple elephant dingy dongs allright?
>
>I presume http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Rants/gpg-signed-mail.html goes in
>more detail.
>
>"As to the immediate problem, the short answer is that:
>
>     * Your mailer is broken.
>     * This is your problem, not mine.
>     * File a bug report with your vendor.
>     * I'm going to continue signing my mail, and if you don't change your 
>end
>     * of things, you're going to continue having problems reading it.
>
>       In some cases (you're cute, my mom, or you're offering sufficient
>reasons per hour), I'll make exceptions, but this is on a case-by-case 
>basis,
>and I'm intentionally leaving it as a PITA manual process so that each of 
>us
>is reminded it's a bad idea: me, when I do it, you, when I forget and 
>you're
>stuck with unreadable mail from me. GET A REAL MAILER.
>     * No, this isn't a virus, a bomb, a bug, a worm, or any other 
>executable
>     * code. And if it is, that's your problem, not mine.
>     * If your IT or MIS department is brain-dead enough to actually strip 
>off
>     * these attachments before you get your mail, I'm going to laugh at 
>you
>     * in public. Sorry, this ain't the sympathy department. There's a nice
>     * rant below about why this is such a pathetic action though. You 
>might
>     * enjoy reading it.
>
>The long answer is the rest of this document."
>
> > Or did I miss the extropy-chat guidelines that specify:
> >
> > -Piss off if you use Outlook Express
>
>No. I could hardly care less which MUA you're using (because I don't see
>Microsoft viruses, otherwise you'd be one of the problems, by insisting to
>run the single MUA responsible for >95% of all Microsoft malware, did I
>already mention that? I believe I did). Just don't tell a public list of
>more or less technical people I'm sending you a Microsoft virus. And then
>complain, again to the list, about your personal choices in MUAs.
>
>Implying, that I'm somehow at fault. Excuse me? This is the former 
>extropians
>list. We used to have standards. Are you try to set a new low for this
>list?
>
> > -You're not wanted if you don't have the Penguin
>
>Again, I could hardly care less which MUA you use. Just don't bitch and 
>moan
>about it.
>
> > -You're a dolt if you don't spend hours and hours figuring out what a 
>MUA
> > MALWARE FC2015's are.
>
>Actually, if you post to this list, and have never heard of a frigging 
>search
>engine my patience kinda starts wearing thin.
>
>http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=RFC+2015&btnG=Google+Search
>
>http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=MUA+RFC+2015&btnG=Google+Search
>
>http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=malware&btnG=Google+Search
>
>-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
>______________________________________________________________
>ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
>8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
>http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
><< attach4 >>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_________________________________________________________________
Find great local high-speed Internet access value at the MSN High-Speed 
Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/



From eliasen at mindspring.com  Mon Feb  9 23:02:10 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:02:10 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <20040209220503.GK15132@leitl.org>
References: <20040209192822.63870.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>	<002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
	<20040209220503.GK15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <40281172.6090304@mindspring.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


   Mozilla ( http://www.mozilla.org/ ) along with the Enigmail plug-in (
http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ ) will verify Eugen's signatures just fine.

   I'm signing this in-line which can be confusing to humans, but any mail
agents let it through just fine.  It's up to you whether it's better to
confuse the human or the computer.

   The only thing I'd worry about is that the key published on Eugen's server:

http://leitl.org/ui22204/.html/key.txt

   Is not the one he uses to sign these messages with.  Has he been kidnapped?
 Or just forgot to update that page?  :)

   Should we all be signing the keys of other people that we trust?  Building
up a web-of-trust will be important to do before we're all in our electronic
bodies and can't verify anything.  Unfortunately, I've never met any of you in
person, so I can't verify your identities.

   Perhaps we should start a web-of-trust project among ourselves?

   I have some information about getting started with encryption, if anyone's
interested:

http://futureboy.homeip.net/pgp.html


   And a secret message for Eugen:

   -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32)

hQIOA36FVP8d7K4vEAf9Enubq/Emu/Jzw+cXF5NSXLLjYyGuS7gly5qGxc23kFxc
GBYjXAAyv+f7BOsmTeC4/9jEmJFuhZM9HH9LtLM86fu5IUvtoVFpwhqIfmXiQgTY
4lQuU4ZZSe0Tuu5pjgZNp673RKjUbUUSF0LzgYZxKkXEmx1HO1VURkaIpKzIozim
JZAgZEEf6uEUsFWg3gHEzkCi9ULEIpluZk6wrfMFFWWm6fM4OGhTuD4yg6pnBWTA
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5pSDmbEhSW6lwH2VxITpYUkYgz5910pljXINN6Y9lwgAj1t0XO5MBXKsT8W5Yn+n
7Y6d26eRA/aT+zWmtxyHk6dy/kdCAjYqTbSKKZuGFCOpjuokOJSFkC/C98LAuC3/
r/IiU7w1Hq+F2gRjDRtpahouwSyRRT964kzqTv5iXgqZEQdPRKQThS7EO6LyIxzk
jyYlcH6ZxUJK/t1zbxTkf/lLyImIeAjcSOc7dfX6NVeVgtLu1kR1IWWFytFafNj2
pZzE3CXkyLEHfzOgR6F9dBJ51XlcX7UTV5UMwRQlCNrqHfDoZILC1VA17rSZtp3Z
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7doigMtBQqx9tDz+zAS3ecK5x7VCw0okgUNhWQ+5XEjfedJuATV7qAG1p6ICuRjO
7pDoEk7Qm1mcrm4Bryd0WAcuRHbRadxMOkMBywwH8e1tv9bIy1Y1fIT65uDKOKla
MIwrJ2r+tVyLu5SnT+3dzS7J1gPWlvo9a0yA72xnn3RUGE0MssOOBfofbVk9Z0gP
6Ss=
=V9QZ
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

- --
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32)

iD8DBQFAKBFs5IGEtbBWdrERAs0kAJoDJ49LNRkZxKl2k+nC6j5E9UC52gCeNWrC
iVnvI+IfOpNJLwOhPPaYEaE=
=+7lx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From eliasen at mindspring.com  Mon Feb  9 23:14:29 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:14:29 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <40281172.6090304@mindspring.com>
References: <20040209192822.63870.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>	<002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>	<20040209220503.GK15132@leitl.org>
	<40281172.6090304@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <40281455.2020301@mindspring.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


   Obviously it's not foolproof yet.  When I pasted in the encoded message, I
got some leading spaces before the ---BEGIN line, so you had to remove those.
 It is fixed below.

   On the other hand, I really believe that learning how to encrypt your
communications and communicate secretly (even in public like this) is one of
the ways we can all best protect our freedoms.

   In addition, with cryptography, it's easy to be insecure before you know
what you're doing, so it's worth an investment of time to experiment a bit and
learn best practices.  If anyone wants to try send me encrypted stuff
directly, I'll help ya get going.

Alan Eliasen wrote:
- -----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32)

hQIOA36FVP8d7K4vEAf9Enubq/Emu/Jzw+cXF5NSXLLjYyGuS7gly5qGxc23kFxc
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6Ss=
=V9QZ
- -----END PGP MESSAGE-----

- --
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (MingW32)

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FBEIhF2QY4R2AaQ2wVp3oyw=
=mo1H
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Feb  9 23:27:06 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 23:27:06 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
Message-ID: <4028174A.8030207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

Eugene is correct that MS OutLook Express should not be used by anybody
with any pretensions to computer expertise. It is the free crap that new
computers users use because it came with the pc they bought from the
chainstore.

One (of many) good, free alternatives is Mozilla.
<http://www.mozilla.org/>

Seriously, give it a try. You don't even have to delete Outlook Express
or Internet Explorer. Mozilla will import your IE mail files and you
will never look back.

Another alternative way of working, is to change to the digest format
for receiving the list. I get about one big email a day from extropians,
all neatly processed by the list mailer. I keep one tab of my browser
permanently open on the extropians forum, to read up-to-date postings.
<http://forum.javien.com/conversations.php?goend=true&topicdata=extropians>

Best, BillK






From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Mon Feb  9 23:36:24 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 18:36:24 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
References: <4028174A.8030207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <LAW9-OE42Hmj9n1xxWn000022b7@hotmail.com>

> Eugene is correct that MS OutLook Express should not be used by anybody
> with any pretensions to computer expertise.
Bah. I've used outlook express for almost 10 years now with no negative
consequences (other than not being able to view Eugen's messages).

Once hotmail opens up to other mail clients then I'll be off outlook express
in a heartbeat. Until then I'm chained to this client.

It's acceptable for what I need. It sends and received emails appropriately
and as long as I don't open any attachments I'll be virus free.

Don't you know that anti-snobbery is the new snobbery? All the cool people
went back to windows when all the losers moved to mac and linux (and tell us
about it all the time). It's like when communism went to the left so far it
became fascism.

BAL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "BillK" <bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez


> Eugene is correct that MS OutLook Express should not be used by anybody
> with any pretensions to computer expertise. It is the free crap that new
> computers users use because it came with the pc they bought from the
> chainstore.
>
> One (of many) good, free alternatives is Mozilla.
> <http://www.mozilla.org/>
>
> Seriously, give it a try. You don't even have to delete Outlook Express
> or Internet Explorer. Mozilla will import your IE mail files and you
> will never look back.
>
> Another alternative way of working, is to change to the digest format
> for receiving the list. I get about one big email a day from extropians,
> all neatly processed by the list mailer. I keep one tab of my browser
> permanently open on the extropians forum, to read up-to-date postings.
>
<http://forum.javien.com/conversations.php?goend=true&topicdata=extropians>
>
> Best, BillK
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From joe at barrera.org  Mon Feb  9 23:42:25 2004
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 15:42:25 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <LAW9-OE42Hmj9n1xxWn000022b7@hotmail.com>
References: <4028174A.8030207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<LAW9-OE42Hmj9n1xxWn000022b7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40281AE1.7090001@barrera.org>

Brian Alexander Lee wrote:

>  Don't you know that anti-snobbery is the new snobbery?

And I guess anti-clue is the new clue.



From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 00:35:31 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 19:35:31 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
References: <4028174A.8030207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk><LAW9-OE42Hmj9n1xxWn000022b7@hotmail.com>
	<40281AE1.7090001@barrera.org>
Message-ID: <Law9-OE527eo9GIh0ls00043231@hotmail.com>

Damn, you're in on it. That means that clue is the new anti-clue.

BAL
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe at barrera.org>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez


> Brian Alexander Lee wrote:
> 
> >  Don't you know that anti-snobbery is the new snobbery?
> 
> And I guess anti-clue is the new clue.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Tue Feb 10 00:59:23 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2004 16:59:23 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
References: <4028174A.8030207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001301c3ef71$20075440$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

>From Bill K.

> Eugene is correct that MS OutLook Express should not be used by anybody
> with any pretensions to computer expertise. It is the free crap that new
> computers users use because it came with the pc they bought from the
> chainstore.

Ok, but some people surely LIKE Outlook Express, including me, and I did
cobble my system together from individual components purchased separately
from - you guessed it, chainstores. I understand that you're making a
generalization here, and you're right to suggest I wouldn't pretend to be a
"computer expert", although way too many people call me up when their
machines stop working just way they'd like.

One day I scavenged an electrical switch from an old coffee machine and
mounted it in the center of a knockout panel of an unused drive bay on my
tower. Then I spliced into the power leads of my secondary hard drive, and
arranged things so that I can keep it powered off at all times, except when
I am making a backup or restoring an earlier, pristine ghost of my OS
(win98). Using a floppy disk and a free software called Maxblast, this
simple innovation allows me to thwart any kind of  conceivable attack on my
system. I never use anti-virus software.

If something fucks up my system, I just flick that little black coffee
switch, and reboot with the Maxblast floppy. A couple of clicks, and I go
make myself a sandwich. When I return, either everything is working better
than ever, or I copy my data files over as well. I give very little thought
to what might have happened, and I never have to worry about "system bloat"
since if nothing screws up for six months or more, I do this procedure
anyway.

So if it comes down to messing with what I think is a damn fine system, just
to read Eugen, well ...

I tried foxmail once after reading all kinds of wonderful reviews, and I
didn't like the fact that it didn't even have a To: column in the preview
pane. Also when I tried my nifty ghost trick, it didn't want to accept the
backup data folders. Attitionally, my wife uses this computer for her
business, so any changes have to be backed up with some pretty compelling
incentives. More compelling than "Outlook Express sux".

I do agree that we should all encrypt more, I suppose.

Russell Evermore



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Tue Feb 10 01:10:00 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 17:10:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <LAW9-OE42Hmj9n1xxWn000022b7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402091641350.29935-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:

> Bah. I've used outlook express for almost 10 years now with no negative
> consequences (other than not being able to view Eugen's messages).

Brian, I'm sorry -- you might simply be lucky -- but my first Windows
machine infection took place 4-5 years ago -- since that time all of
my windows machines have been "off" the net to the degree I can
do that (all of my windows machines have non-routable IP addresses
but I'm unsure how secure this may still be).

I send several emails a week to web site designers who for whatever
reasons appear to insist on designing for Internet Explorer or using
features (Java, Javascript, etc.) that may not be standard and due
to closed sources may be vulnerable from a security standpoint.

BRIAN -- get this -- just because *YOU* have not have any negative
consequences does not mean you may be inflicting negative consequences
on other net users -- unbeknownst to you!  (This may not be the
case for you -- you may have very good filters between you and
the net or you may simply be lucky,)  But I've heard that the
unprotected infection time for windows machines is down to
something like 5 minutes currently.

Though I am an extropian and dozens on the list would probably
testify to my commitment to long and productive lives (particularly
my own) -- you can pry the mallet from my cold and disfigured hands
from smashing Outlook, I.E. and to a lesser extent windows itself
into small little bits.  It would be a sacrifice but some have to
be made for humanity.  The cost doesn't even come close to the
benefits.  They could have done much much better.  One can only
ask "*what* were they thinking?".

Robert




From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 10 09:25:59 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:25:59 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you got
	Klez
Message-ID: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Mon Feb 09, 2004 06:10 pm Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> Though I am an extropian and dozens on the list would probably
> testify to my commitment to long and productive lives (particularly
> my own) -- you can pry the mallet from my cold and disfigured hands
> from smashing Outlook, I.E. and to a lesser extent windows itself
> into small little bits. It would be a sacrifice but some have to
> be made for humanity. The cost doesn't even come close to the
> benefits. They could have done much much better. One can only
> ask "*what* were they thinking?".

It is historical really.
In the good old days people were amazed to get anything at all working
on these new-fangled personal computers. Pcs were low-powered 286, 386
or 486 machines with little spare capacity. The machines were working
flat-out just to do ordinary tasks. Security never even entered their
heads. When virus-scanners first appeared everyone complained that they
slowed their pcs down too much.
MS didn't discover the Internet until quite late on and by then their
windows systems had already been designed with ease-of-use in mind.

By the time MS added security as an objective to their software, it was
too late.

BillK




From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Feb 10 09:57:01 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:57:01 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <001301c3ef71$20075440$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
References: <4028174A.8030207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<001301c3ef71$20075440$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040210095701.GS15132@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 04:59:23PM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:

> Ok, but some people surely LIKE Outlook Express, including me, and I did

No accounting for tastes (though Outlook Express doesn't even have advantages
of Outlook, which while still being a horrible MUA, is somewhat useful for
corporate teamware).

I presume you're familiar with http://officeupdate.microsoft.com (see
download link, original Office CDs required) and
http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com ?

You can still catch a wormvirus simply via receiving email in Outlook/Outlook
Express, or simply visiting a website with Internet Explorer, so I suggest
you get a software firewall and a virus scanner with autoupdate. Using
Mozilla for most browsing and some other MUA for reading email will make you
safer still.

> cobble my system together from individual components purchased separately
> from - you guessed it, chainstores. I understand that you're making a

I use multiple machines: Apple iBook with OS X, Dells with Wink2/XP,
homebuilt machines, whatever is at hand. 

> generalization here, and you're right to suggest I wouldn't pretend to be a
> "computer expert", although way too many people call me up when their
> machines stop working just way they'd like.

What makes you think I claim to be a computer expert? I'm not.
 
> One day I scavenged an electrical switch from an old coffee machine and
> mounted it in the center of a knockout panel of an unused drive bay on my
> tower. Then I spliced into the power leads of my secondary hard drive, and
> arranged things so that I can keep it powered off at all times, except when
> I am making a backup or restoring an earlier, pristine ghost of my OS
> (win98). Using a floppy disk and a free software called Maxblast, this
> simple innovation allows me to thwart any kind of  conceivable attack on my
> system. I never use anti-virus software.

I don't use antivirus either -- on machines other than Windows, that is.
It's a good setup you have (though switching off the drive without unplugging
the IDE cable is somewhat iffy); it would be sufficient to backup your system
partition on an unmounted partition, using a back up system (floppy, flash
stick, CDROM) you boot into.
 
> If something fucks up my system, I just flick that little black coffee
> switch, and reboot with the Maxblast floppy. A couple of clicks, and I go
> make myself a sandwich. When I return, either everything is working better
> than ever, or I copy my data files over as well. I give very little thought
> to what might have happened, and I never have to worry about "system bloat"
> since if nothing screws up for six months or more, I do this procedure
> anyway.

I don't do this procedure, and I'm also unconcerned wtih system bloat.
 
> So if it comes down to messing with what I think is a damn fine system, just
> to read Eugen, well ...

Once again, it's not my problem. You've locked yourself in in a particular
choice (though you sticking to a random MUA doesn't strike me as a rational
choice), you can't read me, it's okay.

I won't read HTML-only email from Hotmail accounts either (because I can't
quote these properly).
 
> I tried foxmail once after reading all kinds of wonderful reviews, and I
> didn't like the fact that it didn't even have a To: column in the preview
> pane. Also when I tried my nifty ghost trick, it didn't want to accept the
> backup data folders. Attitionally, my wife uses this computer for her

I don't know what foxmail is. After a long search, I've found a set of tools
that's optimal for my use. I might go back to inline PGP signing, though
that's not exactly high on my priority schedule right now.

> business, so any changes have to be backed up with some pretty compelling
> incentives. More compelling than "Outlook Express sux".

Once again, you're acting unnecessarily helpless. I just entered why outlook
express is a bad mua into Google, and instantly found this:

	http://www.greatcircle.com/lists/list-managers/mhonarc/list-managers.200207/msg00124.html

I'm doing your work for you, this time, just to show that whenever you've got
a question, however tentative, the answer is merely a few seconds away. By
asking a search engine.
 
> I do agree that we should all encrypt more, I suppose.

It shouldn't be your problem. I'm not encrypting, I'm signing my mail. My MTA
(that's a Mail Transfer Agent) does it for me, via opportunistic StartTLS:
http://www.homeport.org/~adam/starttls.html

I haven't set up opportunistic IPsec yet, because it's not very user-friendly
yet, and thus not widespread. 

http://ipsec-howto.org/
http://www.freeswan.org/

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Feb 10 10:25:45 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:25:45 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl,
	you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:25:59AM +0000, BillK wrote:

> It is historical really.
> In the good old days people were amazed to get anything at all working

Dunno, WordStar on CP/M worked just fine. So did Linux on those i486/33 MHz/8 MBytes
bolides. Or Athlon/2 GHz/1 GByte.

> on these new-fangled personal computers. Pcs were low-powered 286, 386
> or 486 machines with little spare capacity. The machines were working

Never had the problem, I must admit. Anything above i286 had enough
horsepower for anything a normal user could do at the time. 

> flat-out just to do ordinary tasks. Security never even entered their

Really? Funny, the only times I noticed it was trying to run physical
simulations on 7.1 MHz 68000, or LaTeXing 100-page documents. That was
pushing the envelope, a bit.

> heads. When virus-scanners first appeared everyone complained that they

A system which needs to use a virus scanner just to be put on the internet is
quite a laughingstock, don't you think?

> slowed their pcs down too much.
> MS didn't discover the Internet until quite late on and by then their
> windows systems had already been designed with ease-of-use in mind.

Security is strictly orthogonal to ease-of-use. Of course if you use a
homegrown (not designed, that's something different) system with security
never entering your mind (what, teh Intarweb? NIH!) you'll get what you
bargained for. Of course, throwing out the codebase every few years, and
starting from scratch doesn't help a bit.
 
> By the time MS added security as an objective to their software, it was
> too late.

You seem to be buying the PR very nicely. You can't just "add" security as an
afterthought, to a system which hasn't been designed with security in mind.
Use Google, read Bugtraq. It takes about 15-20 years for the codebase to
mature, using a normal development approach. 

I'm not seeing MS providing any palpably increased security yet. It's been
over a year, meanwhile we're seeing capabilities and nonexec stacks and
buffers being made nonexecutable appearing in mainstream alternatives.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From nagero at chariot.net.au  Tue Feb 10 11:32:02 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:02:02 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Polly the Opera and Polly the weird promotional exe
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210210013.024a17d0@mail.chariot.net.au>

(resending, not sure if this turned up the first time)

Hi all,

A week or so ago I asked some annoying questions about an app I was 
developing, about preventing virus transmission, etc. Well, I finally 
finished the program, and I thought I'd post it here so people can see what 
they contributed to. There are some fun bits to it!

http://www.tbfdownloads.com/polly.exe

Give it a look, go on, you know you want to!

(ps: My email address has changed, and may be in flux; the one for this 
email is probably safe for a while)

Emlyn 



From nagero at chariot.net.au  Tue Feb 10 11:47:14 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:17:14 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you
	got Klez
In-Reply-To: <20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>

At 07:55 PM 10/02/2004, you wrote:
>On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:25:59AM +0000, BillK wrote:
>
> > It is historical really.
> > In the good old days people were amazed to get anything at all working
>
>Dunno, WordStar on CP/M worked just fine. So did Linux on those i486/33 
>MHz/8 MBytes
>bolides. Or Athlon/2 GHz/1 GByte.

WordStar? I'd *love* to see you go back to using a 386 with WordStar. Lol! 
But Bill's right Eugen, in that these machines (um, I mean Windows OSes) 
were never designed to be networked like this. It's an unfortunate result 
of history.

Emlyn 



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Feb 10 11:07:46 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:07:46 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl,
	you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:17:14PM +0930, emlyn on nagero wrote:

> WordStar? I'd *love* to see you go back to using a 386 with WordStar. Lol! 

I'd had no trouble running vim (this message is written via a 128 kBit/s
uplink, each keystroke going to a Linux box several 100 km away, via ssh on a
i386 box. It would not be a dramatic deviation (though that box is doing a
lot of other things as well) from the current status quo.

> But Bill's right Eugen, in that these machines (um, I mean Windows OSes) 
> were never designed to be networked like this. It's an unfortunate result 

Yeah, they wrote an OS from scratch that couldn't do multitasking, multiuser,
had no security in mind, nor did have a TCP/IP stack. I.e., they turned the
clock back 15-20 years at the time of release. If you see any of these

	http://www.thehumorarchives.com/attachment_files/microsoftcorp.jpg

please report these dangerous cyberterrorists to the Office of Homeland security.

> of history.

It's not a result of history. It's a result of a bunch of idiot developers
and a lucky accident being taken forward by shrewd, very unscrupulous
businessmen.

I.e. I'm missing the technology angle in this whole steaming pile of excrement.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From nagero at chariot.net.au  Tue Feb 10 12:24:01 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 21:54:01 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you
	got Klez
In-Reply-To: <20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>

At 08:37 PM 10/02/2004, you wrote:
>On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:17:14PM +0930, emlyn on nagero wrote:
>
> > WordStar? I'd *love* to see you go back to using a 386 with WordStar. Lol!
>
>I'd had no trouble running vim (this message is written via a 128 kBit/s
>uplink, each keystroke going to a Linux box several 100 km away, via ssh on a
>i386 box. It would not be a dramatic deviation (though that box is doing a
>lot of other things as well) from the current status quo.


eeek


> > But Bill's right Eugen, in that these machines (um, I mean Windows OSes)
> > were never designed to be networked like this. It's an unfortunate result
>
>Yeah, they wrote an OS from scratch that couldn't do multitasking, multiuser,
>had no security in mind, nor did have a TCP/IP stack. I.e., they turned the
>clock back 15-20 years at the time of release. If you see any of these
>
>         http://www.thehumorarchives.com/attachment_files/microsoftcorp.jpg
>
>please report these dangerous cyberterrorists to the Office of Homeland 
>security.

Multitasking was always a sad omission, although hard on the hardware imo 
(although Apple seemed to manage something close). Multiuser... what for? 
TCP/IP stack... what for? How could the home user/small business user of 
the eighties possibly use this stuff? And at what expense; what would they 
sacrifice for it?


> > of history.
>
>It's not a result of history. It's a result of a bunch of idiot developers
>and a lucky accident being taken forward by shrewd, very unscrupulous
>businessmen.

I don't agree. The market for which they were developing didn't want a full 
strength OS, it wanted maximum performance for minimum $. The unscrupulous 
bit is something I can't argue against :-)


>I.e. I'm missing the technology angle in this whole steaming pile of 
>excrement.
>
>-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>

It's almost never about technology.

Emlyn

>______________________________________________________________
>ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
>8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
>http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Feb 10 11:46:49 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:46:49 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <LAW9-OE42Hmj9n1xxWn000022b7@hotmail.com>
References: <4028174A.8030207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<LAW9-OE42Hmj9n1xxWn000022b7@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040210114649.GA15132@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 06:36:24PM -0500, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:

> Bah. I've used outlook express for almost 10 years now with no negative
> consequences (other than not being able to view Eugen's messages).

You know that how? You sure you aren't running a zombie node right now? I.e.,
have you looked?

I can tell you what the consequences of people with your attitude are. You
are single-handedly responsible for >95% of all Redmond malware hitting the
mailservers (so the sysadmins have constatly play the Dutch boy and the
dike), a large and rapidly rising surge of spam, DDoS attacks on public web
sites. You're responsible for email having become unreliable. You're
responsible for knee-jerk reactions of Net zealots and hare-brained politicians
rushing to regulate the Internet. You're the one responsible for loss of
anonymity, and attempts to abolish free email.

The worst is: you don't know, you don't care, and you give us all the finger.
So don't be less than surprised about me utterly unsympathetic with your
plight.
 
> Once hotmail opens up to other mail clients then I'll be off outlook express
> in a heartbeat. Until then I'm chained to this client.

Please don't complain to me about you're becoming locked-in by a particular
vendor of your own free will. You do know who's running Hotmail, do you?
I presume you'll be happy paying Hotmail's electronic postage stamps, too,
just to be able to continue using Outlook.
 
> It's acceptable for what I need. It sends and received emails appropriately
> and as long as I don't open any attachments I'll be virus free.

Dream on. You don't have to open anything; you don't have even to activate
the preview pane. Once again, you operate on pure faith. Figures.
 
> Don't you know that anti-snobbery is the new snobbery? All the cool people
> went back to windows when all the losers moved to mac and linux (and tell us

"Going back to Windows" implies that "all the cool people" did use Windows at
some point. I'm glad to be uncool, I guess.

> about it all the time). It's like when communism went to the left so far it

It's funny in a pathetic way, when people trapped in proprietary prisons
whine about other people whining about being trapped in proprietary prisons, while
blaming those of us who aren't.

> became fascism.

Godwin. EOT.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 10 11:57:34 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:57:34 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you got
	Klez
Message-ID: <4028C72E.7030902@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Tue Feb 10, 2004 04:07 am Eugen Leitl wrote:
> Yeah, they wrote an OS from scratch that couldn't do multitasking,
> multiuser, had no security in mind, nor did have a TCP/IP stack. I.e.,
> they turned the clock back 15-20 years at the time of release.
>
> It's not a result of history. It's a result of a bunch of idiot
> developers and a lucky accident being taken forward by shrewd, very
> unscrupulous businessmen.
>

All mostly true, but I can't help feeling that you are trying to
re-interpret history from a modern POV.
Hindsight is wonderful, I'm amazingly good at it myself. ;)

But back then I don't remember it as being the way you describe.
Computer enthusiasts hacked away on the DOS command line. The mass
market would not exist until a GUI and more powerful CPUs arrived.
Businesses already had terminals connected to mainframes for timesharing
and multi-tasking.
The 'new' PCs were stand-alone office toys for a bit of word-processing,
spread-sheets and games.
TCP/IP? Do you remember the first 2400 bps modems and BBS systems?
Only enthusiasts bothered.

By the way, when I said that MS had now added security as an objective,
my reference to 'too late' implied that they would fail in this
objective. MS requires yet another redesign and upgrades for everyone.
No surprise there, then.

BillK




From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Feb 10 12:19:19 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 13:19:19 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl,
	you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <20040210121919.GC15132@leitl.org>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:54:01PM +0930, emlyn on nagero wrote:
> 
> eeek

Allright, if I was a computer professional I'd store my email in a database,
and automatically replicate it across multiple machines. I'd still use Mutt,
though. And there's nothing wrong with vim (used to use Emacs, but switched
for overhead and keystroke miminization reasons).

Storing email in a centralised place and accessing it remotely via ssh is a
tolerable tradeoff. It's the only way I can instantly access some 40 kEmails
(it'd scale to >>100 k, though I've never had reason to find out) with 
regexp searches, procmail, signatures, instant delivery, mixmaster
access, etc.

> Multitasking was always a sad omission, although hard on the hardware imo 

It isn't. I had better multitasking in 1987 than I do now. It's better on OS
X, and presumably it'd came close on x86 if was bored enough to tweak hardware,
system parameters, and switching to a different kernel branch.

Life's too short for that.

> (although Apple seemed to manage something close). Multiuser... what for? 

It isn't hard (though context switch is cheaper on PowerPC than x86). It's
just about being able to hire intelligent programmers, and care enough to do
so.

Multiuser? Because my computers typically get used by several people, and
nothing helps to debug security than to have your system survive some 100
semianonymous, malicious users.

> TCP/IP stack... what for? How could the home user/small business user of 

Because being exposed to millions of malicious users is harsher still. And
computers without a network are just glorified calculators and typing
machines. Networks are so 1960s.

> the eighties possibly use this stuff? And at what expense; what would they 
> sacrifice for it?

Why do you automatically assume a zero or a negative-sum game? There wouldn't
be any expense in an end-1980s machine, it would be completely lost in the
overhead. It would have considerable strategic advantages.

> I don't agree. The market for which they were developing didn't want a full 

The market didn't want anything. The market took whatever came along,
blindly. It wasn't the market's fault. It was the fault of those bearded
idiots and Gates/Allen, to first purchase a broken product, and then
perpetuate the brain damage by wrapping compatibility layers around it.

> strength OS, it wanted maximum performance for minimum $. The unscrupulous 

Hiring competent or incompetent people doesn't result in a visible price
difference in the product price tag. Of course, it's hard if you're an idiot
to start with, and don't know shit from shinola.

> bit is something I can't argue against :-)
> 
> It's almost never about technology.

Transhumanism is always about the technology. The business part is just a
vehicle.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From nagero at chariot.net.au  Tue Feb 10 14:05:24 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:35:24 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you
	got Klez
In-Reply-To: <20040210121919.GC15132@leitl.org>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210121919.GC15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210230919.02486e60@mail.chariot.net.au>

At 09:49 PM 10/02/2004, you wrote:
>On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 09:54:01PM +0930, emlyn on nagero wrote:
> >
> > eeek
>
>Allright, if I was a computer professional I'd store my email in a database,
>and automatically replicate it across multiple machines. I'd still use Mutt,
>though. And there's nothing wrong with vim (used to use Emacs, but switched
>for overhead and keystroke miminization reasons).
>
>Storing email in a centralised place and accessing it remotely via ssh is a
>tolerable tradeoff. It's the only way I can instantly access some 40 kEmails
>(it'd scale to >>100 k, though I've never had reason to find out) with
>regexp searches, procmail, signatures, instant delivery, mixmaster
>access, etc.

The world contains different people I guess. I don't stress too much over 
my email, and I lose it periodically to crashes, job changes, etc. I know 
that I am abnormal in not caring too much about it though.

I salute your effort though, Eugen, no irony.

> > Multitasking was always a sad omission, although hard on the hardware imo
>
>It isn't. I had better multitasking in 1987 than I do now. It's better on OS
>X, and presumably it'd came close on x86 if was bored enough to tweak 
>hardware,
>system parameters, and switching to a different kernel branch.
>
>Life's too short for that.

Good old OS X. I never used it, but I heard it was pretty good (far 
superior to Windows technologically). Pity.



> > (although Apple seemed to manage something close). Multiuser... what for?
>
>It isn't hard (though context switch is cheaper on PowerPC than x86). It's
>just about being able to hire intelligent programmers, and care enough to do
>so.

I don't know about that. Professional programmers mostly do what needs 
doing in the time frame. I'd say that multiuser wasn't required at the 
time. Think SOHO, and home user. If you needed multi-user, you got 
something of the ilk of SCO Unix (boo hiss!!!).


>Multiuser? Because my computers typically get used by several people, and
>nothing helps to debug security than to have your system survive some 100
>semianonymous, malicious users.

Security for what? So you can do multiuser? This is kind of circular. By 
far and away for the majority of 80s PCs (and 90s PCs), computer security 
involved remembering to lock your front door when you went out. Did you 
experience a totally different 80s computer scene to me? I remember 
magazines with programs printed out for you to type in to your computer, 
and lots of faffing about with floppy disks. I was happy enough with single 
user access because I only had one monitor and keyboard (and, eventually, 
mouse).


> > TCP/IP stack... what for? How could the home user/small business user of
>
>Because being exposed to millions of malicious users is harsher still. And
>computers without a network are just glorified calculators and typing
>machines. Networks are so 1960s.

I believe the quote was that a computer without a printer is a toy. 
Networks may be 60s to you, but they were oh so 1995 for most home users. 
iirc commercial ISPs didn't turn up until, what, after '91? I agree with 
Bill, you are looking at this stuff from 2004, and forgetting what it was 
like on the ground back then.


> > the eighties possibly use this stuff? And at what expense; what would they
> > sacrifice for it?
>
>Why do you automatically assume a zero or a negative-sum game? There wouldn't
>be any expense in an end-1980s machine, it would be completely lost in the
>overhead. It would have considerable strategic advantages.

Not really. After all, there were competitors with these features (eg OS-X 
as you mentioned, and the Mac OS was advanced compared to Windows). But the 
market didn't flood in that direction.

> > I don't agree. The market for which they were developing didn't want a 
> full
>
>The market didn't want anything. The market took whatever came along,
>blindly. It wasn't the market's fault. It was the fault of those bearded
>idiots and Gates/Allen, to first purchase a broken product, and then
>perpetuate the brain damage by wrapping compatibility layers around it.

And unfortunately it was state mandated that we buy this OS. Oh wait, no, 
there were competitors, I forgot. Quite a few of them. The market didn't 
just swallow what it was fed, it chose.


> > strength OS, it wanted maximum performance for minimum $. The unscrupulous
>
>Hiring competent or incompetent people doesn't result in a visible price
>difference in the product price tag. Of course, it's hard if you're an idiot
>to start with, and don't know shit from shinola.

What evidence do you have that MS's coders were stupid?


> > bit is something I can't argue against :-)
> >
> > It's almost never about technology.
>
>Transhumanism is always about the technology. The business part is just a
>vehicle.
>
>-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>

Transhumanism, imo, is about people. The technology is our environment, but 
it's always and only the backdrop to the play.

Emlyn


>______________________________________________________________
>ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
>8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
>http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From eugen at leitl.org  Tue Feb 10 13:02:55 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:02:55 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl,
	you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <4028C72E.7030902@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <4028C72E.7030902@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040210130254.GD15132@leitl.org>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 11:57:34AM +0000, BillK wrote:
 
> All mostly true, but I can't help feeling that you are trying to
> re-interpret history from a modern POV.
> Hindsight is wonderful, I'm amazingly good at it myself. ;)

My view hasn't changed since 1980s (I've used anything since 
ZX-80, Apple ][ and PET). Unix is a 1970s OS. Multics predates it.
We've had Minix. Linux is contemporary with Windows 3.1.
 
> But back then I don't remember it as being the way you describe.
> Computer enthusiasts hacked away on the DOS command line. The mass

Computer enthusiasts also hacked on *nix and CP/M command line, way before.
There was also Lisp, Apple and C= command lines, which actually came with Basic &
more.

> market would not exist until a GUI and more powerful CPUs arrived.

Xerox did WIMP in 1970s. Lisp machines later on. Then came Lisa, and the Mac,
and the Commodore Amiga. A GUI doesn't take more than a 4 MHz 68000.

> Businesses already had terminals connected to mainframes for timesharing
> and multi-tasking.
> The 'new' PCs were stand-alone office toys for a bit of word-processing,
> spread-sheets and games.

Yeah, if one didn't bother to go to the library, that was computing.

> TCP/IP? Do you remember the first 2400 bps modems and BBS systems?

Yes.

> Only enthusiasts bothered.

I didn't. My open source at the time was from Fred Fish, and came via mail
and copying sessions.
 
> By the way, when I said that MS had now added security as an objective,
> my reference to 'too late' implied that they would fail in this
> objective. MS requires yet another redesign and upgrades for everyone.
> No surprise there, then.

Redmond seems to try to move to a subscription model, because the customers
no nonger accept periodic asset abandoment due to sacrificial shedding of
current codebase. I'm not sure they'll manage to do it on time to save their
crumbling revenue model. We should really be thankful for availability of
alternatives, preventing us from being stuck with a stagnant monopoly.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 13:40:55 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 05:40:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl,
	you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <20040210130254.GD15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20040210134055.8605.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 11:57:34AM +0000, BillK wrote:
>  
> > But back then I don't remember it as being the way you describe.
> > Computer enthusiasts hacked away on the DOS command line. The mass
> 
> Computer enthusiasts also hacked on *nix and CP/M command line, way
> before. There was also Lisp, Apple and C= command lines, which
> actually came with Basic & more.

While I was hacking away on DOS with BASIC in 1980-81, the Apple kids
up the road in Hanover were doing Pascal programming on their IIc's.

> 
> > market would not exist until a GUI and more powerful CPUs arrived.
> 
> Xerox did WIMP in 1970s. Lisp machines later on. Then came Lisa, and
> the Mac, and the Commodore Amiga. A GUI doesn't take more than a 4 
> MHz 68000.

No, it doesn't. Not a basic one, anyways. Xerox is to this day still
using WIMP on its Docutech ODP systems. I wouldn't want to do my daily
computing in the environment, though.

Now, my first Windows grade PC was a 12 Mhz 386 running 3.1. Thought it
was much better than my friends 4 MHz 286 running Win 3.0. That was
when RAM cost $100/meg and 100 MB hard drives were hot.

What would it take to put modern networking and memory handling
capabilities in something like Win 3.1?
> 
> > Businesses already had terminals connected to mainframes for
> timesharing
> > and multi-tasking.
> > The 'new' PCs were stand-alone office toys for a bit of
> word-processing,
> > spread-sheets and games.
> 
> Yeah, if one didn't bother to go to the library, that was computing.
> 
> > TCP/IP? Do you remember the first 2400 bps modems and BBS systems?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > Only enthusiasts bothered.
> 
> I didn't. My open source at the time was from Fred Fish, and came via
> mail
> and copying sessions.
>  
> > By the way, when I said that MS had now added security as an
> objective,
> > my reference to 'too late' implied that they would fail in this
> > objective. MS requires yet another redesign and upgrades for
> everyone.
> > No surprise there, then.
> 
> Redmond seems to try to move to a subscription model, because the
> customers
> no nonger accept periodic asset abandoment due to sacrificial
> shedding of
> current codebase. I'm not sure they'll manage to do it on time to
> save their
> crumbling revenue model. We should really be thankful for
> availability of
> alternatives, preventing us from being stuck with a stagnant
> monopoly.
> 
> -- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
> ______________________________________________________________
> ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
> 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
> http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
> 

> ATTACHMENT part 1.2 application/pgp-signature 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From natasha at extropy.org  Sun Feb  8 20:37:01 2004
From: natasha at extropy.org (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2004 12:37:01 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE62aaO9OJCSO0004ebd9@hotmail.com>
References: <000501c3ee00$60de2dd0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040208123547.01d75380@mail.earthlink.net>

At 12:07 PM 2/8/04 -0600, Kevin wrote:
>Oh, go for it! It's just HTML. You could learn the minimum necessary to do 
>what is needed for this in a day. I don;t think you will need to know 
>JavaScript, tables, image maps, or any of the more complicated aspects, 
>just basic text formatting.
>
>I would like to nominate Robert Bradbury for his in-depth knowledge and 
>excellent communication skills.

Yes, you are absolutely correct.  Robert is a fine communicator and also 
can pinpoint issues that others might miss.

Thanks!
Natasha

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:spike66 at comcast.net>Spike
>To: <mailto:extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>'ExI chat list'
>Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 10:59 PM
>Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
>
>I am honored, but it sounds like I need HTML skills?  I suck
>at that.  I would be happy to manage information and write
>summaries tho.  We have plenty of webheads who could
>help with a site I suppose.
>
>We do, right?
>
>spike
>-----Original Message-----
>From: 
><mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org>extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
>[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha Vita-More
>Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:24 PM
>To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
>
>Here's a supportive idea:
>
>Somebody on the list made a great suggestion that we nominate several 
>posters from the "extropy-chat" list to participate in the VP Summit as 
>"Catalysts."
>
>I'll start by nominating Spike to be a Catalyst.  Anyone want to make 
>another nomination?
>  ... Natasha
>
>Natasha Vita-More
>President, Extropy Institute
><http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
>Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit ? on the Internet ?February 15-29, 2004
>
>
>
>----------
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
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From natasha at extropy.org  Sun Feb  8 07:50:01 2004
From: natasha at extropy.org (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:50:01 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
In-Reply-To: <000501c3ee00$60de2dd0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040207132218.01e77d50@pop.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040207234715.032b93e0@mail.earthlink.net>

At 08:59 PM 2/7/04 -0800, Spike wrote:

>I am honored, but it sounds like I need HTML skills?  I suck
>at that.  I would be happy to manage information and write
>summaries tho.  We have plenty of webheads who could
>help with a site I suppose.

My dear Spike you are the pot talking to the kettle.  While I may be an 
imaginative designer/artist, I take the back seat when it comes to 
webheading.

David McFadzean is developing the infrastructure for the Summit and he will 
make it very user-friendly.

:-)

Natasha

>-----Original Message-----
>From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
>[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Natasha Vita-More
>Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 1:24 PM
>To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>Subject: [extropy-chat] Nominate/Suggest Catalysts for VP Summit!
>
>Here's a supportive idea:
>
>Somebody on the list made a great suggestion that we nominate several 
>posters from the "extropy-chat" list to participate in the VP Summit as 
>"Catalysts."
>
>I'll start by nominating Spike to be a Catalyst.  Anyone want to make 
>another nomination?
>  ... Natasha
>
>Natasha Vita-More
>President, Extropy Institute
><http://www.extropy.org/>Extropy Institute
>Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit on the Internet February 15-29, 2004
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

Natasha Vita-More
http://www.natasha.cc
----------
President, Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture  http://www.transhumanist.biz
http://www.transhuman.org
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From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Tue Feb 10 14:30:24 2004
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:30:24 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Polly the Opera and Polly the weird promotional exe
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210210013.024a17d0@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210210013.024a17d0@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <4028EB00.7020806@mail.tele.dk>

emlyn on nagero wrote:

> A week or so ago I asked some annoying questions about an app I was 
> developing, about preventing virus transmission, etc. Well, I finally 
> finished the program, and I thought I'd post it here so people can see 
> what they contributed to. There are some fun bits to it!
> 
> http://www.tbfdownloads.com/polly.exe
> 
> Give it a look, go on, you know you want to!


Hmmm someone claiming to be Emlyn, but with a new email adresse asks us 
to download and execute an .exe from an anonymous site ....


I don't know what to think here, but I won't take the risk.


regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark


From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Tue Feb 10 14:40:34 2004
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:40:34 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Fruit fly genome music
In-Reply-To: <402451DD.1F9C9712@mindspring.com>
References: <402451DD.1F9C9712@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <4028ED62.6040407@mail.tele.dk>

Terry W. Colvin wrote:

> [Where is the fruit fly longevity poster? - twc]
> 
> I have a friend who's spent the last several months writing software to
> play gene sequences as music. He just sent me his 7MB .wav of the fruit
> fly genome. It's pretty damned cool.


Hmmm ... what algorithm does he use to encode the DNA to music?

DNA has no immediate and direct way to be transfered to music. So either 
the music is almost totally random in style, or the transfer algorithm 
is more important than the DNA in creating the music.


regards max M


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 14:49:17 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 09:49:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion:  Three Wise ...Maji?
Message-ID: <191690-220042210144917398@M2W077.mail2web.com>

I just read a report from Reuters about The Christian Church rethinking the
age-old reference to "Three Wise Men," in deference to gender neutrality.

Apparently there is a bit of discrepancy and the 17th Century King James
Bible (70 million readers) made a boo-boo.  "Three Wise Men" is now "Three
Wise Maji" just in case one was a woman.

"The revision committee said: 'While it seems very unlikely that these
Persian court officials were female, the possibility that one or more of
the Magi were female cannot be excluded completely.'

"There is no theological dispute about the gifts they brought -- gold,
frankincense and myrrh -- but the prayer has been changed to use the word
Magi on the grounds that "the visitors were not necessarily wise and not
necessarily men." 

"The decision was greeted by mocking newspaper headlines like 'The Three
Fairly Sagacious Persons' and "Is it unwise to call the Magi men?" 

"Anglicans are debating whether words like 'Chairman' can be replaced at
committee meetings by more neutral words like 'Chair.' (Synod)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/10/uk.magi.reut/index.html

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More

Join the VP Summit:  http://www.extropy.org
Feb 15-29, 2004
Transhumanists Challenge Bioethics Council with Critical Thinking About the
Future


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 15:21:14 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:21:14 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
Message-ID: <Law9-F75oBJHsxPCFj200053588@hotmail.com>




>From: Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org>
>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
>Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:46:49 +0100
>
>On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 06:36:24PM -0500, Brian Alexander Lee wrote:
>
> > Bah. I've used outlook express for almost 10 years now with no negative
> > consequences (other than not being able to view Eugen's messages).
>
>You know that how? You sure you aren't running a zombie node right now? 
>I.e.,
>have you looked?

Of course I've looked, that is why I can make an accurate statement like the 
one above.

>
>I can tell you what the consequences of people with your attitude are. You
>are single-handedly responsible for >95% of all Redmond malware hitting the
>mailservers (so the sysadmins have constatly play the Dutch boy and the
>dike), a large and rapidly rising surge of spam, DDoS attacks on public web
>sites. You're responsible for email having become unreliable. You're
>responsible for knee-jerk reactions of Net zealots and hare-brained 
>politicians
>rushing to regulate the Internet. You're the one responsible for loss of
>anonymity, and attempts to abolish free email.
>
>The worst is: you don't know, you don't care, and you give us all the 
>finger.
>So don't be less than surprised about me utterly unsympathetic with your
>plight.

Listen, don't whine to me about shit you know not. I am responsible for 0% 
of virii zipping around Outlook inboxes as I have never spread a virus. I 
don't open attachments, and have my windows system set up with adequate 
security.

The only plight I have is not being able to read your emails through oe and 
it's getting to be more of a boon than a plight (har har har).

It is possible to run outlook without spewing virus all over the populated 
net. It is possible to run windows systems with adequate security.

BAL

_________________________________________________________________
Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and 
beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx



From jacques at dtext.com  Tue Feb 10 15:39:34 2004
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:39:34 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Fruit fly genome music
In-Reply-To: <4028ED62.6040407@mail.tele.dk>
References: <402451DD.1F9C9712@mindspring.com> <4028ED62.6040407@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <4028FB36.70502@dtext.com>

Max M wrote:

> Terry W. Colvin wrote:
> 
>> [Where is the fruit fly longevity poster? - twc]
>>
>> I have a friend who's spent the last several months writing software to
>> play gene sequences as music. He just sent me his 7MB .wav of the fruit
>> fly genome. It's pretty damned cool.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm ... what algorithm does he use to encode the DNA to music?
> 
> DNA has no immediate and direct way to be transfered to music. So either 
> the music is almost totally random in style, or the transfer algorithm 
> is more important than the DNA in creating the music.

That would be my first guess, too, but is it necessarily so?

Is there pattern in DNA? I know that the 4^3 possible triples of 
nucleotids all code for an amino-acid (various triples coding for the 
same amino-acid), but some are probably more common that others.

And what about chains of codons: can any triple follow any triple? 
Aren't some sequences of triples/amino-acids vastly more common that 
other, so that it could easily be mapped onto pattern in sound?

Is auditorization/playing (vs. visualization) of data used in certain 
fields to help the human brain to find pattern?

Jacques




From natashavita at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 16:07:18 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:07:18 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust Anything
	from the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
Message-ID: <184670-22004221016718575@M2W065.mail2web.com>

WARNING - Subject Line Change! 

Just in case anything thought I was trusting taking anything from the Bible
as "serious."

It's an important point (and I'm sure Robert Bradbury would agree).  The
acknowledgement of gender-awareness, in the church or bible, is a bit
ironic, no matter how funny it seems.

Courses that I am taking right now are based in social change and what
specific catalyzing proponents of change do make a difference in the long
term.  In that most of the world is "religious" and has one or another
belief in superstition or otherworldliness, being aware of what changes
they make in their own protocol is worth paying attention to. Regardless of
the fact that it is irrational, we must be aware of the entire world's, not
just our own corner of the globe.

The fact that the "church" is beginning to recognize that there is more
than one gender that is respected in their myths is at least a small step
in one aspect of a right direction, even though they are ultimately facing
backwards.

Cheers!

Natasha

__________________

I just read a report from Reuters about The Christian Church rethinking the
age-old reference to "Three Wise Men," in deference to gender neutrality.

Apparently there is a bit of discrepancy and the 17th Century King James
Bible (70 million readers) made a boo-boo.  "Three Wise Men" is now "Three
Wise Maji" just in case one was a woman.

"The revision committee said: 'While it seems very unlikely that these
Persian court officials were female, the possibility that one or more of
the Magi were female cannot be excluded completely.'

"There is no theological dispute about the gifts they brought -- gold,
frankincense and myrrh -- but the prayer has been changed to use the word
Magi on the grounds that "the visitors were not necessarily wise and not
necessarily men." 

"The decision was greeted by mocking newspaper headlines like 'The Three
Fairly Sagacious Persons' and "Is it unwise to call the Magi men?" 

"Anglicans are debating whether words like 'Chairman' can be replaced at
committee meetings by more neutral words like 'Chair.' (Synod)
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/10/uk.magi.reut/index.html

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More

Join the VP Summit:  http://www.extropy.org
Feb 15-29, 2004
Transhumanists Challenge Bioethics Council with Critical Thinking About the
Future





--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 10 16:13:40 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 10:13:40 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
References: <184670-22004221016718575@M2W065.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE17ya3t4PsmD00051865@hotmail.com>

As much as the church likes to revise its thinking, what are the chances we
can get them to change this whole "creation" thing while they are at it?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <natashavita at earthlink.net>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:07 AM
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?


> WARNING - Subject Line Change!
>
> Just in case anything thought I was trusting taking anything from the
Bible
> as "serious."
>
> It's an important point (and I'm sure Robert Bradbury would agree).  The
> acknowledgement of gender-awareness, in the church or bible, is a bit
> ironic, no matter how funny it seems.
>
> Courses that I am taking right now are based in social change and what
> specific catalyzing proponents of change do make a difference in the long
> term.  In that most of the world is "religious" and has one or another
> belief in superstition or otherworldliness, being aware of what changes
> they make in their own protocol is worth paying attention to. Regardless
of
> the fact that it is irrational, we must be aware of the entire world's,
not
> just our own corner of the globe.
>
> The fact that the "church" is beginning to recognize that there is more
> than one gender that is respected in their myths is at least a small step
> in one aspect of a right direction, even though they are ultimately facing
> backwards.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Natasha
>
> __________________
>
> I just read a report from Reuters about The Christian Church rethinking
the
> age-old reference to "Three Wise Men," in deference to gender neutrality.
>
> Apparently there is a bit of discrepancy and the 17th Century King James
> Bible (70 million readers) made a boo-boo.  "Three Wise Men" is now "Three
> Wise Maji" just in case one was a woman.
>
> "The revision committee said: 'While it seems very unlikely that these
> Persian court officials were female, the possibility that one or more of
> the Magi were female cannot be excluded completely.'
>
> "There is no theological dispute about the gifts they brought -- gold,
> frankincense and myrrh -- but the prayer has been changed to use the word
> Magi on the grounds that "the visitors were not necessarily wise and not
> necessarily men."
>
> "The decision was greeted by mocking newspaper headlines like 'The Three
> Fairly Sagacious Persons' and "Is it unwise to call the Magi men?"
>
> "Anglicans are debating whether words like 'Chairman' can be replaced at
> committee meetings by more neutral words like 'Chair.' (Synod)
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/10/uk.magi.reut/index.html
>
> Natasha
>
> Natasha Vita-More
>
> Join the VP Summit:  http://www.extropy.org
> Feb 15-29, 2004
> Transhumanists Challenge Bioethics Council with Critical Thinking About
the
> Future
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 16:18:55 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 08:18:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion:  Three Wise ...Maji?
In-Reply-To: <191690-220042210144917398@M2W077.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040210161855.58352.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "natashavita at earthlink.net" <natashavita at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> "The decision was greeted by mocking newspaper headlines like 'The
> Three Fairly Sagacious Persons' and "Is it unwise to call the Magi
> men?" 
> 
> "Anglicans are debating whether words like 'Chairman' can be replaced
> at committee meetings by more neutral words like 'Chair.' (Synod)

Well, a chair, being an upright construction of hard materials, is
obviously a phallic symbol, and as such is inappropriate as it is a
sign of the perpetuation of the phallocracy. A more feminine title
would be "Bean", as in bean bag, or the shape of the ovary. However, we
wouldn't want to perpetuate mysognistic stereotypes of 'clitocracy', so
a more neutral piece of furniture should be adopted. Perhaps "Couch"
would work. It is inclusive, as multiple persons can sit on a couch,
and it rhyms with "coach", who encourages performance, rather than
dictating it.

All hail the Couch.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Feb 10 16:47:51 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:47:51 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion:  Three Wise ...Maji?
In-Reply-To: <20040210161855.58352.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-DE0F5B895BE811D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/10/04 8:18) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Well, a chair, being an upright construction of hard materials, is
>obviously a phallic symbol, and as such is inappropriate as it is a
>sign of the perpetuation of the phallocracy. A more feminine title
>would be "Bean", as in bean bag, or the shape of the ovary. However, we
>wouldn't want to perpetuate mysognistic stereotypes of 'clitocracy', so
>a more neutral piece of furniture should be adopted. Perhaps "Couch"
>would work. It is inclusive, as multiple persons can sit on a couch,
>and it rhyms with "coach", who encourages performance, rather than
>dictating it.
>
>All hail the Couch.
>


However, by implicitly upholding the sexual dimorphism imposed upon us by our heterophallocratic society, you perpetuate the oppression of those who transgress the gender and sexual norms. How dare you! *shock, horror*


;)

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 10 16:50:52 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:50:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
Message-ID: <265000-22004221016505248@M2W061.mail2web.com>


From: Kevin Freels 

>As much as the church likes to revise its thinking, what are the chances we
>can get them to change this whole "creation" thing while they are at it?

haha!  Very, very funny. :-)

Natasha


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <natashavita at earthlink.net>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:07 AM
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?


> WARNING - Subject Line Change!
>
> Just in case anything thought I was trusting taking anything from the
Bible
> as "serious."
>
> It's an important point (and I'm sure Robert Bradbury would agree).  The
> acknowledgement of gender-awareness, in the church or bible, is a bit
> ironic, no matter how funny it seems.
>
> Courses that I am taking right now are based in social change and what
> specific catalyzing proponents of change do make a difference in the long
> term.  In that most of the world is "religious" and has one or another
> belief in superstition or otherworldliness, being aware of what changes
> they make in their own protocol is worth paying attention to. Regardless
of
> the fact that it is irrational, we must be aware of the entire world's,
not
> just our own corner of the globe.
>
> The fact that the "church" is beginning to recognize that there is more
> than one gender that is respected in their myths is at least a small step
> in one aspect of a right direction, even though they are ultimately facing
> backwards.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Natasha
>
> __________________
>
> I just read a report from Reuters about The Christian Church rethinking
the
> age-old reference to "Three Wise Men," in deference to gender neutrality.
>
> Apparently there is a bit of discrepancy and the 17th Century King James
> Bible (70 million readers) made a boo-boo.  "Three Wise Men" is now "Three
> Wise Maji" just in case one was a woman.
>
> "The revision committee said: 'While it seems very unlikely that these
> Persian court officials were female, the possibility that one or more of
> the Magi were female cannot be excluded completely.'
>
> "There is no theological dispute about the gifts they brought -- gold,
> frankincense and myrrh -- but the prayer has been changed to use the word
> Magi on the grounds that "the visitors were not necessarily wise and not
> necessarily men."
>
> "The decision was greeted by mocking newspaper headlines like 'The Three
> Fairly Sagacious Persons' and "Is it unwise to call the Magi men?"
>
> "Anglicans are debating whether words like 'Chairman' can be replaced at
> committee meetings by more neutral words like 'Chair.' (Synod)
> http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/02/10/uk.magi.reut/index.html
>
> Natasha
>
> Natasha Vita-More
>
> Join the VP Summit:  http://www.extropy.org
> Feb 15-29, 2004
> Transhumanists Challenge Bioethics Council with Critical Thinking About
the
> Future
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 10 17:04:25 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:04:25 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anything from the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
Message-ID: <40290F19.1020807@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Tue Feb 10, 2004 07:49 am Natasha Vita-More wrote:
> I just read a report from Reuters about The Christian Church
> rethinking the age-old reference to "Three Wise Men," in deference to 
> gender neutrality.
>
> Apparently there is a bit of discrepancy and the 17th Century King
> James Bible (70 million readers) made a boo-boo. "Three Wise Men" is
> now "Three Wise Maji" just in case one was a woman.
>

Urban Legends covered this in Nov 2000
http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/3wisemen.asp

Matthew never ever mentioned 'three' magi (magoi in Greek), only saying
there was more than one Magus. Three was implied from the three gifts
presented. No mention that they were 'kings' either.

Matthew 2:1 tells us:
     Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod
the king, behold, there came magi from the east to Jerusalem . . .


This text is actually a bit of a problem for Xians and requires a bit of
ecclesiastical wriggling to accommodate it.

Every other use of 'magoi' in the Greek Bible has bad associations,
meaning magicians, sorcerers, etc. So they have to force a good meaning
on to this one case and claim they were something like Persian
astrologers or learned men or priests. But then they have the problem
that the Bible is none too keen on astrology or foreign priests either.

BillK




From hemm at br.inter.net  Tue Feb 10 18:13:04 2004
From: hemm at br.inter.net (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:13:04 -0300
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you
	TrustAnythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
References: <184670-22004221016718575@M2W065.mail2web.com>
	<Law10-OE17ya3t4PsmD00051865@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <019701c3f002$50f63760$fe00a8c0@HEMM>

Two: Fat chance and no chance
As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone in the high hierarchy of the church really believes in this creationist bs. It's just a political issue.

-----Mensagem Original----- 
De: "Kevin Freels" <kevinfreels at hotmail.com>
Para: <natashavita at earthlink.net>; "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Enviada em: ter?a-feira, 10 de fevereiro de 2004 13:13
Assunto: Re: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you TrustAnythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?


| As much as the church likes to revise its thinking, what are the chances we
| can get them to change this whole "creation" thing while they are at it?



From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Feb 10 17:30:52 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 12:30:52 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: Subject Change! How can you
	TrustAnythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <019701c3f002$50f63760$fe00a8c0@HEMM>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-E01126025BEE11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/10/04 15:13) Henrique Moraes Machado <hemm at br.inter.net> wrote:

>As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone in the high hierarchy of the church really believes in this creationist bs. It's just a political 
>issue.


You -would- think that, wouldn't you? But, having spent a great deal of time talking to many such people, including Anglican bishops, I can reassure you that they really are that scientifically illiterate and that not only do many of them believe in what we know as Creationism (and all of the Xtian pseudoscience that they use to try to justify it), but there is a significant chunk of people who are "Young Earthers" and believe the 19th century crapola about the earth being created in 4004 BC.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 10 19:49:46 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 11:49:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DIET: Atkins smear a PETA scam
Message-ID: <20040210194946.68909.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/02-10-2004/0002106789&EDATE=

Atkins-Blasting 'Physicians' Committee is a Front Group for PETA 
 
    WASHINGTON, Feb. 10 /PRNewswire/ -- The late Dr. Robert Atkins is
being smeared for his alleged obesity at the time of his death, by a
phony doctors organization that has been exposed as a front group for
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) and has been
censured by the American Medical Association (AMA).  The Physicians
Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM) has taken in over $1 million
from PETA and the animal rights movement.  PCRM and PETA also share
office space, board members, and staff.
    The AMA has formally censured PCRM in the past, calling its
recommendations "irresponsible" and "potentially dangerous to the
health and welfare of Americans." The AMA has also called PCRM a
"fringe organization" that uses "unethical tactics" and is 
"interested in perverting medical science."
    PCRM's attacks on diets including meat, fish and dairy foods, and
its constant demands for a vegetarian America are rooted in an
animal-rights philosophy.
    The facts on the late Dr. Robert Atkins:

1) Dr. Stuart Trager MD, chairman of the Atkins Physicians Council,
told
   the Wall Street Journal that Atkins' heart disease stemmed from
   cardiomyopathy, a condition that was thought to result from a viral
   infection.  Atkins' weight was due to bloating and water-retention
   associated with his condition, and the time he spent in a coma after
   his head injury.
2) Trager's own release this morning reads in part: "Due to water
   retention ..[Atkins] had a weight that varied between 180 and 195.
   During his coma as he deteriorated and his major organs failed,
fluid
   retention and bloating dramatically distorted his body and left him
   at 258 pounds at the time of his death, a documented weight gain
   of over 60 pounds."

In the case of Dr. Atkins, PCRM filched the autopsy report on Dr.
Atkins from the medical examiners office and delivered it to the Wall
Street Journal. This gross breach of medical ethics exposes the
extremism of the PCRM.



=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Tue Feb 10 23:48:26 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 15:48:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402101525250.12849-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


I would urge people who want to enter into any discussion of
modern Christianity to have viewed the series:
  "From Jesus to Christ: The First Christians"
series from PBS/Frontline.  E.g.:
   http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/

It provided me with an education.

Google also turned up "The Real Jesus":
  http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/jesusx.html
and
  http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/early.html

which contain *way* too much information for me to want to wade
through.  I would propose however if there is that much discussion
about a topic that one might conclude that we have no good basis
for rational discussion (because if after 2000 years the debate has
not been resolved it isn't likely to be resolved soon).  It isn't
like the pyramids where I can walk up to them and touch them.

Of course this raises the question of whether or not it is extropic
to even engage in a discussion about religion.  Can one ever hope
to resolve the perspectives and achieve a consensus?

So I'll raise an interesting question -- what is the value of humans
who will believe anything they are told?  It raises an interesting
issue -- as extropians we value information -- but how much should
we value information which does not contribute to the long term
complexification of the universe (or worse contributes to a long
term increase in entropy?)

Robert




From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 10 23:53:09 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:53:09 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] A bit more on the genome music
Message-ID: <40296EE5.D41C11A1@mindspring.com>

>From Carl Frederick, the programmer/composer, reposted with his
permission.

...

The genome music is actually the output of two programmes: 'Genomeplayer'
which takes a genome (or any other linear data, for that matter) and
produces a musical score as output (Genomeplayer also plays the score with
a simple square wave.) The second programme is one that I've wanted to do
for a very long time; the programme, 'Kral', takes a musical score and
plays it with instruments indistinguishable from real instruments played
by real people. Kral takes instrument definition files, along with
technique, performer ability, music style, and other files--and produces
wave file output. Kral took the bulk of the work and is about three times
bigger a programme than Genomeplayer. Now, I've got to spend some time and
create credible instruments. I hope I'll have a good trumpet by the end of
the week.

Now, with Genomeplayer and Kral done, I've got all this extra time. Aside
from my work, fencing, and my bagpipe group, time is available. Now, I can
get back to writing. I envy your output. I'll never be able to match it,
but it is something to strive toward.

Of course, now that I mention it, no computer programme is ever really
finished. I just hope I have the discipline not to tweak the system
indefinitely. (I do intend to make a baton [magnitometer and strain gauge,
inside] so that one can conduct a Kral generated score [I've always wanted
to conduct Beethoven], but that can wait a while.)

Here are a few more details:

To keep to 'the spirit of the genome', I did the conversion, not from the
bases, but from the codons--the sets of three bases that code for an amino
acid. There are 64 (4X4X4) possible codons and only 20 amino acids. Amino
acids then, are represented by a variable number of codons--from six down
to one. I associated those amino acids with the highest number of codon
representations with the most common notes of the c-major scale. I also
coded so that only the exons (the gene sequences) were used. For this, I
needed to use methionine and the three codons that don't represent an
amino acid, as start and stop indicators. And, in addition, I used them as
musical codas. One particular amino acid, I used as a flag to indicate
that the following codon represented a change of note duration, or a sharp
or flat. These two-codon instructions, since they are comparatively rare,
do not drive the music out of c-major, and don't change the tempo
particularly often.


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From nagero at chariot.net.au  Wed Feb 11 01:25:04 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:55:04 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Polly the Opera and Polly the weird promotional exe
In-Reply-To: <4028EB00.7020806@mail.tele.dk>
References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210210013.024a17d0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<4028EB00.7020806@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040211104636.0243ea00@mail.chariot.net.au>

Damn, I've failed to establish my own identity. Help me out here, anyone... 
Maybe ask me a question only Emlyn would know. No, wait, google probably 
knows all that and more. You could ask me a question that only I'd get 
wrong, that might work...

Max, where are your kahoonas? Run the exe, you know you want to. Or do what 
I do sometimes, kick off a VMWare machine, run the thing in that (all 
networking turned off), scrub the machine afterwards.

You can find links to the exe on my singing groups website 
(www.threebluefish.com). It would have more credibility if there were also 
links to my Land Canaan stuff, but mp3.com went bye bye so my music is 
offline now. Hmmm. It does link to my personal homepage, though.

Well, in lieu of establishing that I'm really Emlyn, and not just some no 
life fool who can't think of anything better than trying to steal my 
immensely valuable identity in order to convince extros to run a silly 
program, I'll just goad you all. Yer yellow livered sons of mongrel dogs, 
run my damn program! Your mothers wear army boots (I've never understood 
that as an insult, I think it's an american thing). Or how about "Anyone 
who is too scared to run my exe is a big fat LUDDITE"!

Oops, now I've gone to far.

Anyway, run this -> http://www.tbfdownloads.com/polly.exe

Emlyn
(or is it?)

At 12:00 AM 11/02/2004, you wrote:
>emlyn on nagero wrote:
>
>>A week or so ago I asked some annoying questions about an app I was 
>>developing, about preventing virus transmission, etc. Well, I finally 
>>finished the program, and I thought I'd post it here so people can see 
>>what they contributed to. There are some fun bits to it!
>>http://www.tbfdownloads.com/polly.exe
>>Give it a look, go on, you know you want to!
>
>
>Hmmm someone claiming to be Emlyn, but with a new email adresse asks us to 
>download and execute an .exe from an anonymous site ....
>
>
>I don't know what to think here, but I won't take the risk.
>
>
>regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 00:32:23 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:32:23 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ASTRO: A new record!
Message-ID: <Law10-OE15YC4vrHztH00052742@hotmail.com>

Rover sets distance record on Mars
02/10/04 18:15 PM, EST
The Spirit rover shattered a one-day distance record on Mars, rolling nearly 70 feet across the planet's rocky surface, NASA said Tuesday.


Is it just me, or does a news release over a record breaking 70 ft traverse seem just a bit silly?

 If Opportunity travels 71 feet will thiey issue a new release about the newest record?

Kevin Freels

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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Feb 11 00:40:47 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 16:40:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIOSCI: Genes R Us
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402101548520.12849-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Ok, I know in the midst of all the science action going on
(we have rovers looking out of craters, rovers finishing
drilling holes in rocks so they can get on to the task of
getting to craters (there has to be the potential for a
joke or two here... "You know Ma, the neighborhood I grew
up in -- it just sucked.") -- yada, yada, yada...  some
things may go unnoticed.

But two pieces caught my attention today:

1) A high throughput method for knocking out genes using
RNA interference [1] that can be used to knock out all of
the genes in Drosophila.

2) A new method for growing molecular patterns based on
self-assembly that may allow continued progress in shrinking
the sizes of chips in the semiconductor industry [2].

Comment on (1):  The traditional methods to study what a
gene does are to use chemicals or radiation to mutate the
gene and see what effect that has on an organism.  This
is a bit crude and doesn't always mutate what you want and
where you want it.  The central paradigm in biology is:
  DNA goes to RNA goes to proteins.
The DNA is normally double-stranded (the complementary threads
actually help to preserve our genetic code).  The RNA is normally
single-stranded (for a variety of reasons -- it is easier to maintain,
easier to dispose of, easier to manufacture proteins from, etc.).
However there are many viruses that instead of using double
stranded DNA to carry their genomic information use instead
double stranded RNA (think of it as VHS vs. Betamax).  Sometime
long ago in the evolution of higher organisms the genetic program
concluded that double stranded RNA was bad (because it implied
an infection by a virus) and evolved the means to remove the
double stranded RNA.  Scientists realized that if they could
convert the normally single-stranded RNA involved in the
production of proteins into double-stranded RNA (by delivering
complementary RNA fragments to the cell) they could use the
natural cellular virus defense machinery to instead effectively
delete the activity of a gene.  This is what [1] is all about.
But rather than knocking out for a single gene (and not knowing
precisely which gene you are knocking out) they have shown that
they can do it for tens of thousands of genes in a very precise
way.  Net result -- the function of these many of thousands of genes
can be determined much more quickly.  Determining the function of a
gene greatly accelerates our knowledge of biological processes
(increasing extropy) and gets us closer to dealing with complex
processes which we may not be overly fond of such as aging.

Comment on (2): It hardly needs commenting on.  Smaller, faster,
cheaper computers can be applied to a variety of extropic tasks,
not the least of which is (1).

Robert

1. http://www.sciencedaily.net/releases/2004/02/040206090234.htm
2. http://www.spacedaily.com./news/nanotech-04d.html



From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 11 00:52:33 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:52:33 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402101525250.12849-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-9422C3445C2C11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/10/04 15:48) Robert J. Bradbury <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:

>Of course this raises the question of whether or not it is extropic
>to even engage in a discussion about religion.  Can one ever hope
>to resolve the perspectives and achieve a consensus?


Well, IMO, it is certainly interesting and -potentially- extropic to discuss the psychology and sociology of religion, and consider the possibilities and merits of attaching social structures based on dynamic processes and self-organization in the place of the current religious structures. (Much in the same way we take advantage of the body's chemical receptors and design custom drugs to exploit them.)

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Feb 11 01:01:38 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:01:38 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] tissue of lies
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040211104636.0243ea00@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210210013.024a17d0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<4028EB00.7020806@mail.tele.dk>
	<6.0.3.0.1.20040211104636.0243ea00@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210190025.01d26308@pop-server.satx.rr.com>


<http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=3D160812004>http://news.scotsman.com/opinion.cfm?id=3D160812004

10 February 2004


Stupidity in the new age of anti-science

Gillian Bowditich

SOME 3.7 million people claim to have been abducted by aliens.
Only 11 per cent of Americans believe in evolution. Type "Flat
Earth Society" into the Google search engine on the internet and
you will have a choice of 466,000 sites. How did we get this
stupid?

...

The latest example of this is the Human Tissues Bill currently
going through Parliament. This bill is the government=92s response
to the organ retention outcry at Royal Liverpool Children=92s
Hospital in Alder Hey five years ago. If it becomes law, the use
for research purposes of tissue samples, blood and even urine
specimens, without specific patient consent, will be illegal.
The penalty for a doctor flouting that law will be up to three
years in jail.

According to Cancer Research UK and the Wellcome Trust, two of
the biggest and best respected medical research organisations in
the world, this bill could stifle advances in childhood
leukaemia, cancer, SARS and AIDS. Already ten research projects
on rare tumours in children have either folded or failed to
start because of the difficulties in carrying out this kind of
scientific research in the current hysterical climate. Mark
Walport, director of the Wellcome Trust, believes that if this
bill were effective now, the work that led to the discovery of
genes responsible for the most common inherited form of breast
cancer might not be possible. It could even be a criminal
offence to try. The Royal College of Pathologists is extremely
concerned about the situation and even the Medical Research
Council, the government-funded organisation, has serious doubts
about the bill.

So the government is rethinking this shoddily drafted piece of
legislation which is likely to clog the system with yet more
bureaucracy, restrict vital research and unwittingly criminalise
doctors? Wrong. The government is pressing ahead. It is doing so
because it is more worried about determined pressure groups
which will resort to emotional blackmail than it is about
stifling vital medical research.

[etc] 




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Feb 11 01:12:40 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:12:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Polly the Opera and Polly the weird promotional exe
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040211104636.0243ea00@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402101653580.12849-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, emlyn on nagero wrote:

> Damn, I've failed to establish my own identity. Help me out here, anyone...
[snip]

Ok Emlyn -- to make you happy I've downloaded the program.

But to get me to execute it... (har har har...) Not that I
have any questions about your identity but it would simply
be foolish to execute an "off the net" program.  I have
to deal with my 80 year old father who makes the mistake
of downloading some .exe game file that infects his computer
with a virus.  I have better things to do with my time.

Its an ~1.2 MB file (rather large).  I would have to disassemble
it and go through the code extensively before it would make any
sense to execute it.

Now, one deals with the identity problem -- you are correct
that no amount of googling will help.  This is the extropians
list -- we *know* you can be replicated (or at least those
of us who really understand nanotech do).  We also know that
your replicated twin might be a warped and evil person by design.

We have spent at least 9 years discussing how advanced species
might develop and there is no reason believe that you are
not a representive of such a species and are here on Earth with
motives that are different from our own.  I'm obviously going
a bit over the edge and getting kind of X-file-ish here but
I think you would agree the points are valid (if you are indeed
Emlyn...).

Robert




From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Wed Feb 11 01:46:37 2004
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:46:37 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
Message-ID: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>

Hi all,

  I just bought my first DVD player (plays all world regions),
and now am building a wishlist of the best DVDs in the world.
I figured you all might have some excellent recommendations :-)

  So ... what are the best ones now available (or available soon)
to put on a dream list?  Or perhaps better yet, what DVDs might
be put on a list recommended for extropian education/entertainment/
edutainment?  For instance, a full-color stereo-3d documentary with
computer-generated molecular nanotech would be a natural...

  A friend suggested the IMAX space and ocean DVDs, but I have no
idea if those play well on standard TVs (e.g., Toshiba 30").

  Another possibly cool idea is a stereo-3d shutter-glasses
system (I just ordered one advertised on http://www.3-d.com/),
but I have no idea how well this is going to work or if better
stereo-3d exists out there.

  Another feature that I'd like to maximize use of is the 
inclusion of all the extras (alternative camera angles, commentaries,
bonus short clips, etc.) ... all the great stuff that make
DVDs more extensive than video tapes.

  Of course, each person's list will reflect their own preferences
in entertainment, education, etc., and my favorite movies / genres
will be favored in my personal list ... but perhaps some DVDS in
existence are just so damn good that almost everyone loves them ...

  Some of the items now on my wishlist are:

* documentaries: The Powers of 10 (great visuals), Cosmos (whole set),
  The Complete Walking with... Collection (dinosaurs, cavemen, etc.),
  IMAX space & ocean docs

* scifi:  Contact, The Matrix series, Jurassic Park Trilogy, 
  2001 set, Minority Report 

* historical interest: Landmarks of Early Film, WWII In Color 
  (interesting color footage ... the earlier full color reality
  footage the better, civilian preferred over war)

* fantasy: Fantasia (old and new), The Lord of the Rings trilogy

* fiction: The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (collection)

Best, Johnius


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 02:21:24 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:21:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <20040211022124.73490.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>

I am currently going through the entire Stargate SG-1 canon on DVD
seeing episodes from start to finish, no commercial interruptions, many
episodes I've only partly seen or missed entirely. The DVD also has
added pieces on the making of SG-1l, character backgrounds, etc.

I have finished season 3, and am trying to get season 4 back from my
brother. Season 5 is supposedly out, but is rather pricey. I'm waiting
to pick it up at BJ's at half price.

I'd say for anyone into SF, that this collection is one to definitely
put in the home library and watch over and over again. I have very few
real peeves with this series compared to other television SF shows.

I really like how it essentially deconstructs all human religious
mythology as the result of alien exploitation of primitive humans
(though in deference to the American market, it apparently has not yet
created a character who claims to be Yahweh, though we've seen three
that claimed to be the devil). While not quite as good as simply
bursting the religious bubble entirely, it is a good attempt at weaning
people off the superstition bandwagon.

I also like how it emphasizes the value of science and technology. My
only real problem with it is that you never see any commercial entities
going through the gate to exploit trade with alien societies that are
on our level and willing to trade and don't have Gua'uld problems. I
think it would be interesting to have an StarGATT treaty for
interstellar trade in an episode.

I also have the Matrix DVDs. These are excellent as well and recommend
them highly.

Other movies:
"Confessions of a Dangerous Mind"
"Matchstick Men"
Star Wars 1-6
LOTR
All the Indiana Jones movies (I highly recommend a good subwoofer on
your system, preferably built into the floor right under your couch)
Stargate (the movie)
The Prisoner (the orwellian british series from the 60's)
Terminator movies
Independence Day
any other Ahnuld movie
Gattaca
AI
Brazil
X-Files (series and movie)


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brian at posthuman.com  Wed Feb 11 02:30:28 2004
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 20:30:28 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
References: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <402993C4.3010104@posthuman.com>

I strongly suggest signing up with Netflix and heavily renting. If you 
watch and return the movies relatively promptly you can easily get the 
price per rental down to around $1.50 each. Then if you find some you 
particularly like you can buy a permanent copy. Or if you want to break 
copyright law you can of course buy a DVD burner and simply copy every 
DVD you rent in order to build up a vast pirated collection. Another 
advantage of Netflix is they generally have a much wider selection of 
rentals than any local video store.

P.S. I find many commentary tracks to be quite lame, but the ones on the 
Lord of the Rings extended edition DVDs were pretty good so far.
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From nagero at chariot.net.au  Wed Feb 11 04:34:27 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:04:27 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] List is delayed?
In-Reply-To: <20040210194946.68909.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040210194946.68909.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040211140334.024594b8@mail.chariot.net.au>

Is it just me, or are messages taking a looooong time to get to other people?

(It could just be me, I'm using a new @, maybe it's dysfunctional)
Emlyn



From nagero at chariot.net.au  Wed Feb 11 06:50:19 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:20:19 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Polly the Opera and Polly the weird promotional exe
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402101653580.12849-100000@server.aeiveos.co
 m>
References: <6.0.3.0.1.20040211104636.0243ea00@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0402101653580.12849-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040211161006.02444d88@mail.chariot.net.au>

At 10:42 AM 11/02/2004, you wrote:

>On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, emlyn on nagero wrote:
>
> > Damn, I've failed to establish my own identity. Help me out here, anyone...
>[snip]
>
>Ok Emlyn -- to make you happy I've downloaded the program.
>
>But to get me to execute it... (har har har...) Not that I
>have any questions about your identity but it would simply
>be foolish to execute an "off the net" program.  I have
>to deal with my 80 year old father who makes the mistake
>of downloading some .exe game file that infects his computer
>with a virus.  I have better things to do with my time.

Go on Robert... you going to tell me you can't even run an exe in a sandbox?

Seriously, someone here must have the guts to run it once and let everyone 
know how totally cool and *bloody well safe* it is. Please please please... 
(I don't know why I bother...)

Actually, there *is* a little memetic parasite in it... have a go of the 
teapot vs coffeepot game, it'll suck you in and force you to waste your 
time on it :-)


>Its an ~1.2 MB file (rather large).  I would have to disassemble
>it and go through the code extensively before it would make any
>sense to execute it.

If you are using anything by MS, Robert, I'm already rotflmao! Otoh, if you 
have disassembled something like Word or IE and checked it all out, then 
hot damn, I bow down before the mighty!

Someone must be able to run a vmware session or something. Fuck!


>Now, one deals with the identity problem -- you are correct
>that no amount of googling will help.  This is the extropians
>list -- we *know* you can be replicated (or at least those
>of us who really understand nanotech do).  We also know that
>your replicated twin might be a warped and evil person by design.

If it's a careful copy, yes it will be.


>We have spent at least 9 years discussing how advanced species
>might develop and there is no reason believe that you are
>not a representive of such a species and are here on Earth with
>motives that are different from our own.  I'm obviously going
>a bit over the edge and getting kind of X-file-ish here but
>I think you would agree the points are valid (if you are indeed
>Emlyn...).
>
>Robert

But the original me could have been evil, and the copy might be the nice 
version. As to advanced, you must be using some heretofore unknown 
definition of "advanced" that means something rather idiosyncratic :-)

Guys, girls, non gender specific AIs, aliens, uplifted crustaceans, I put 
some work in this thing, my virus checker goes to 11 so I know it's clean, 
do me the courtesy of having a look, please.

Emlyn
(dejected)



From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Wed Feb 11 08:44:25 2004
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:44:25 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Interresting Steroid story that relates to
	morphological freedom
Message-ID: <4029EB69.4060808@mail.tele.dk>

Pumping Up Steroid Hysteria
---------------------------
http://www.techcentralstation.com/021104C.html

Those associated with bodybuilding, in particular, have pushed the 
envelope of muscle growth to the greatest extent and are particularly 
knowledgeable concerning training injuries. While flexing in a bikini 
bottom probably fails some definitions of sport, no other group trains 
harder or is as interested and involved in the scientific research 
behind their sport.

...

Most notably, the president repeated the adage that "The use of 
performance-enhancing drugs like steroids ... is dangerous."

The medical evidence simply does not support such a statement. On the 
contrary, the most commonly taken and prescribed anabolic steroid, 
testosterone, effectively ameliorates many of the symptoms of aging, 
including loss of libido (for women and men,) lean muscle mass, and 
memory. An estimated 2 million U.S. prescriptions for testosterone were 
written in 2002 and IMS Health has calculated nearly 30 percent annual 
growth rates.

...


regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark


From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Feb 11 10:35:59 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:35:59 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <402993C4.3010104@posthuman.com>
References: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
	<402993C4.3010104@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <20040211103559.GO25287@leitl.org>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 08:30:28PM -0600, Brian Atkins wrote:

> Or if you want to break 
> copyright law you can of course buy a DVD burner and simply copy every 
> DVD you rent in order to build up a vast pirated collection. Another 

I recommend DVDShrink for that: http://www.dvdshrink.org/
or dvd::rip, if you're running open source: http://www.exit1.org/dvdrip/

> advantage of Netflix is they generally have a much wider selection of 
> rentals than any local video store.
> 
> P.S. I find many commentary tracks to be quite lame, but the ones on the 
> Lord of the Rings extended edition DVDs were pretty good so far.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From nagero at chariot.net.au  Wed Feb 11 12:44:18 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:14:18 +0930
Subject: MUA fun Re: [extropy-chat] List is delayed?
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040211140334.024594b8@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <20040210194946.68909.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
	<6.0.3.0.1.20040211140334.024594b8@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040211220658.024437f0@mail.chariot.net.au>

This is almost relevant to recent discussions... turns out it was me.

I switched from OE to Eudora, because OE was playing up; eating *all* of my 
incoming mail every so often (I couldn't pin the behavior down, sometimes 
emails lasted a day or two, sometimes 5 minutes, but they all disappeared 
eventually). Virus scanner cranked, firewall up, updates up to date, no 
other weird behaviour. I couldn't find a checked checkbox in OE saying "eat 
all my f*cking email", so like the good persistent extropian I am, I gave up.

Eudora is funky! It'd freak out Joe Soap a bit, but it appeals to me, and 
probably to techies generally. Feels like I have more control. However, it 
complained this morning that it couldn't download it's ads for me (boo 
hoo), and it'd have to give itself an instant frontal lobotomy because I'm 
oh so cheap. Fine, says I. Everything appeared in order.

Eventually I worked out it wasn't checking my second @ anymore. Dumb. About 
ten seconds later I found a button to put those missing lobes back (no I 
don't understand why it let me do that, mysterious), and now it's all in 
order again.

And I haven't lost any emails for two days now... Cool!

Emlyn

At 02:04 PM 11/02/2004, you wrote:
>Is it just me, or are messages taking a looooong time to get to other people?
>
>(It could just be me, I'm using a new @, maybe it's dysfunctional)
>Emlyn
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Feb 11 11:44:43 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:44:43 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
References: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <20040211114443.GR25287@leitl.org>

On Tue, Feb 10, 2004 at 05:46:37PM -0800, Johnius wrote:

>   I just bought my first DVD player (plays all world regions),

A lot is going on in entertainment. We're finally seeing enough performance
in cheap hardware and codecs good enough (and diverse and buggy enough to
produce different effects on different hardware, and produce enough
incompatibilities and crashes to further degrade the user experience) to  
achieve sufficient compression to put a complete DVD movie on 
a CDR blank with no visible quality degradation, or put a HDTV video source (this
means that the DVD will soon join VHS and Betamax, grazing on greener
pastures). BluRay and similiar formats are about to be released, no doubt
encrusted with DRM. Players now routinely come with Fast Ethernet
connections, VGA/DVI outputs, and hard drives.

On the whole, the usability window between bleeding edge and legacy is
getting shorter, some of the better-selling assets are remastered in the new
formats to be resold several times.

The trend goes towards richer content, hardware with more crunch, format
incompatibilities and security issues -- business as usual, in other words.

On the long run we'll see fully immersive (both scripted and interactive)
recordings.

> and now am building a wishlist of the best DVDs in the world.
> I figured you all might have some excellent recommendations :-)

There's a lot of stuff out there, so I'll stick with anime.
I would take anything from Hayao Miyazaki (and some stuff from Studio Ghibli
in general), from Tonari no totoro to Sen to Chihiru no kamikakushi (there's
a new one coming, probably his last):

	http://nausicaa.net/miyazaki/features/

Of the classics, I wouldn't miss Ghost in the Shell, Wings of Honneamise,
Vampire Hunter D - Bloodlust, Blood the last vampire, Serial Experiments Lain; of the newer stuff Animatrix and
Jin-Roh (The Wolf Brigade), Cowboy Bebop (haven't seen latter yet). There are a few more, but I can't
remember their names right now.

Ah, I've finally found the server:
A Beautiful Mind, Akira Kurosawa (Dreams, Ran, other stuff), Chocolat, Disney's Jungle
Book, Meet Joe Black, Tarkovski's Stalker (also Solaris), Shrek, Ice Age, 
Solaris (the Clooney one), The Addams Family, Addams Family Values, One Hour
Photo, From Hell, Donnie Darko, Dark City, Dellamore Dellamorte, Equilibrium, 
Harry Potter (all of them), LOTR, Monster's Inc, Powder, Sleepy Hollow, 
The Iron Giant, Pirates of the Caribbean, The Sixth Sense, Unbreakable, 
Thirteenth Floor, Matrix I/II, The 13th Warrior, Good Will Hunting, Amelie.

I'm missing several, but this is just the stuff I've got.
 
-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From duggerj1 at charter.net  Wed Feb 11 14:21:26 2004
From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 8:21:26 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD Recommendations?
Message-ID: <200402111421.i1BELQVV028241@mxsf25.cluster1.charter.net>

Wednesday, 11 February 2004

I enthusiastically second Eugen's Studio Ghibli recommendations. You can find most, but not all, of its work in English dubs. Avoid "Warriors of the Wind", the English dub that butchered Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind. Buy all the comics instead. The movie is crap; the graphic novel IMO counts as one of the top ten pieces of science fiction ever written. 

See also the new Studio Ghibli movie, "The Cat Returns." I laughed all the way through this movie, something that rarely happens with intentional comedies. (If you don't like cats, you won't like this movie.) You might also find "Battle Royale" a very funny movie. I did, but the humor is very black.

Other worthy pieces of animation include the new Ghost in the Shell series and Neon Genesis Evangelion. I enjoyed Unforgiven and L.A. Confidential very much. Momento probably works better on DVD than as a movie. Pi is worth watching. 

If you like horror, look for the original version of "Kingdom", not what's about to be televised. Try to find "The Resurrected". That's a faithful adaptation of H.P. Lovecraft's "The Case of Charles Dexter Ward." 

You might also try to find the Russian version of Solaris. I haven't seen the recent remake, so I can't compare the two.

Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.owlmirror.net/Aduggerj/
Sometimes the delete key serves best.
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_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


From amara at amara.com  Wed Feb 11 13:33:31 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:33:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
Message-ID: <p05100300bc4eee5fafb0@[150.146.134.133]>

Henrique Moraes Machado <hemm at br.inter.net> wrote:
>As a matter of fact, I don't think anyone in the high hierarchy of
>the church really believes in this creationist bs. It's just a
>political issue.

Not true.

Vatican astronomer shows his faith in science
"We get to know the creator by what he has created."
http://www.catholic-doc.org/miscellany/1999/0499astrono.HTM


Brent Neal:
>I can reassure you that they really are that scientifically illiterate

Hardly.

The Vatican Observatory and their world-class astronomy research:
http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/index.html


-- 

Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF),
Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR,
Roma, ITALIA     Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it


From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 11 15:07:22 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:07:22 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <p05100300bc4eee5fafb0@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-FEDCBA6E5CA311D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/11/04 14:33) Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:

>Brent Neal:
>>I can reassure you that they really are that scientifically illiterate
>
>Hardly.
>
>The Vatican Observatory and their world-class astronomy research:
>http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/index.html


Last time I checked, Creationists existed in more places than just the Catholic church.  And before you go off on how great the Catholic church's record on science is, I suggest you read the transcript of the BBC documentary entitled "Sex and the Holy City,"[1] in which we are treated to such "scientifically literate" positions as the Church claiming that HIV could "pass through pores in latex condoms, making condoms unsafe for use" and that 9 year old girls could safely give birth to children.  Yeah. That's scientifically literate. 


The point: Scientific literacy isn't an action, its an attitude as well as a thought process. No Christian church, Catholic or Protestant, has it. 


Brent


[1] You may find the download here: <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3147672.stm>
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 11 15:12:10 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 09:12:10 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
References: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE233HvoFOAmE0001b493@hotmail.com>

You really must pick up the following:
Spaceballs
Robin Hood: Men in Tights
Monty Python and the Holy Grail (Special Edition) In the special edition you
get to see the Lego Knights version of the Camelot song!



Oh, and don;t forget 2001, 2010, Frank Herbert's Dune and Children of Dune ,
Apollo 13, The Right Stuff, Alien (all four) Raiders of the Lost Ark (all
3).

Yes, I know none of these are very Extropic, but their entertainment value
makes them a must have in my book!
Kevin Freels


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Johnius" <Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:46 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?


> Hi all,
>
>   I just bought my first DVD player (plays all world regions),
> and now am building a wishlist of the best DVDs in the world.
> I figured you all might have some excellent recommendations :-)
>
>   So ... what are the best ones now available (or available soon)
> to put on a dream list?  Or perhaps better yet, what DVDs might
> be put on a list recommended for extropian education/entertainment/
> edutainment?  For instance, a full-color stereo-3d documentary with
> computer-generated molecular nanotech would be a natural...
>
>   A friend suggested the IMAX space and ocean DVDs, but I have no
> idea if those play well on standard TVs (e.g., Toshiba 30").
>
>   Another possibly cool idea is a stereo-3d shutter-glasses
> system (I just ordered one advertised on http://www.3-d.com/),
> but I have no idea how well this is going to work or if better
> stereo-3d exists out there.
>
>   Another feature that I'd like to maximize use of is the
> inclusion of all the extras (alternative camera angles, commentaries,
> bonus short clips, etc.) ... all the great stuff that make
> DVDs more extensive than video tapes.
>
>   Of course, each person's list will reflect their own preferences
> in entertainment, education, etc., and my favorite movies / genres
> will be favored in my personal list ... but perhaps some DVDS in
> existence are just so damn good that almost everyone loves them ...
>
>   Some of the items now on my wishlist are:
>
> * documentaries: The Powers of 10 (great visuals), Cosmos (whole set),
>   The Complete Walking with... Collection (dinosaurs, cavemen, etc.),
>   IMAX space & ocean docs
>
> * scifi:  Contact, The Matrix series, Jurassic Park Trilogy,
>   2001 set, Minority Report
>
> * historical interest: Landmarks of Early Film, WWII In Color
>   (interesting color footage ... the earlier full color reality
>   footage the better, civilian preferred over war)
>
> * fantasy: Fantasia (old and new), The Lord of the Rings trilogy
>
> * fiction: The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes (collection)
>
> Best, Johnius
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 15:27:35 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:27:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-FEDCBA6E5CA311D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <20040211152735.31171.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:
>  (2/11/04 14:33) Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
> 
> >Brent Neal:
> >>I can reassure you that they really are that scientifically
> illiterate
> >
> >Hardly.
> >
> >The Vatican Observatory and their world-class astronomy research:
> >http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/index.html
> 
> 
> Last time I checked, Creationists existed in more places than just
> the Catholic church.  And before you go off on how great the Catholic
> church's record on science is, I suggest you read the transcript of
> the BBC documentary entitled "Sex and the Holy City,"[1] in which we
> are treated to such "scientifically literate" positions as the Church
> claiming that HIV could "pass through pores in latex condoms, making
> condoms unsafe for use" and that 9 year old girls could safely give
> birth to children.  Yeah. That's scientifically literate. 

Exactly WHAT latex condoms are they talking about?

While there may be some who are superstition or filled with nonsense
opinions, there are plenty of others who are highly educated and quite
scientific. Of course, some of the most highly educated are not beyond
holding idiotic opinions as well. I know a number of priests who are
quite liberally left wing. A few of them have gotten exasperated with
debating with me, saying I argue like a Jesuit. What a NICE compliment!

> 
> 
> The point: Scientific literacy isn't an action, its an attitude as
> well as a thought process. No Christian church, Catholic or
> Protestant, has it. 

That is a rather unscientific jump to conclusions to reach. Have you
interviewed them all?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 11 15:33:30 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:33:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
References: <184670-22004221016718575@M2W065.mail2web.com>
	<Law10-OE17ya3t4PsmD00051865@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <c0di0a$kj5$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Kevin Freels <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> As much as the church likes to revise its thinking, what are the chances we
> can get them to change this whole "creation" thing while they are at it?

I've sat through, oh, 10 years of Protestant religious classes in
school.  Quite a bit of that dealt with pointing out that much of
the Bible is composed of myths, which are not to be taken literally.
We were taught scientific explanations for various miracles, and
how the creation myth and others reflect the beliefs of ancient
middle eastern pastoralists.

In this part of the world, most Christians consider a literal
interpretation of the Bible to be medieval and insane.

As far as I can tell, creationism and related fundamentalism is
mostly an American phenomenon.  Well, it might be widespread in the
Third World, too, I don't know.  Usually the Pope takes the blame
as the most anachronistically conservative religious figure around,
but he's not a creationist.  In fact, compared to what's coming out
of the US Bible Belt, the Pope, even in his current most conservative
incarnation, looks rather progressive.

When I tell people around here about American religious conservatives,
they think I'm making things up.  It's just too preposterous.  Surely
creationism must be a joke, nobody has believed this for centuries.

It's high time the US starts a crusade to clean up its very own
religious fundamentalism.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 11 15:43:25 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:43:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <20040211152735.31171.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-07FBA0755CA911D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/11/04 7:27) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>While there may be some who are superstition or filled with nonsense
>opinions, there are plenty of others who are highly educated and quite
>scientific.


I don't particularly care about any of them except the ones who make policy, for they are the ones who set the course of the organization. If you'd bother to read the transcript, you'll understand the point.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Wed Feb 11 15:46:34 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:46:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <c0di0a$kj5$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <184670-22004221016718575@M2W065.mail2web.com>
	<Law10-OE17ya3t4PsmD00051865@hotmail.com>
	<c0di0a$kj5$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402111641240.26583@hercules>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Usually the Pope takes the blame
>as the most anachronistically conservative religious figure around,
>but he's not a creationist.  In fact, compared to what's coming out
>of the US Bible Belt, the Pope, even in his current most conservative
>incarnation, looks rather progressive.

I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some scientists,
the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the creation, and that
studying the Universe using science from that moment on was OK. Sorry, but
I don't have specific references.

Alfio



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 15:51:28 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:51:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <c0di0a$kj5$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040211155128.6300.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> 
> When I tell people around here about American religious
> conservatives,
> they think I'm making things up.  It's just too preposterous.  Surely
> creationism must be a joke, nobody has believed this for centuries.
> 
> It's high time the US starts a crusade to clean up its very own
> religious fundamentalism.

That is a problem here. The only real way to get rid of em is by
discrediting them: i.e. gotta pimp some ho's to em. However, some of
the leaders are so old that the very idea of doing that is not
credible. Financial shennanigans are the other favorite. Gambling too.
This doesn't work long term, because their theology allows for
tear-filled repentance.

All you can really do is educate people, which is why the creationists
attack the schools.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From jef at jefallbright.net  Wed Feb 11 15:52:52 2004
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:52:52 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
References: <r02010100-1032-FEDCBA6E5CA311D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <01b901c3f0b7$1cc99440$6501a8c0@int.veeco.com>

Brent Neal wrote:
> The point: Scientific literacy isn't an action, its an attitude as
> well as a thought process. No Christian church, Catholic or
> Protestant, has it.

If only the differences between scientific and non-scientific world views
were so black and white, progress would be faster, although perhaps less
diverse.

As Bertrand Russell said, "Every man, wherever he goes, is encompassed by a
cloud of comforting convictions which move with him like flies on a summer
day."

A difficulty, within the extropian and transhumanist communities as well, is
that each person perceives and processes new information in the context of
their pre-existing beliefs and knowledge base.  It is remarkable how easily
we can fit contradictory and discordant information into our existing
structures and continue on our merry way -- eventually to run into the hard
edges of reality (or not).

A key to effective communication accross such gaps is to recognize that each
person's point of view seems consistent and essentially complete to them.
Recognizing this, we can strive to *enlarge* the context of the discussion
to include both points of view within a larger whole.  *Enlarging* the
context is generally more effective (and extropic) than attempting to reduce
the other person's point of view by pointing out seeming errors in their
thinking and view of their world.

- Jef
http://www.jefallbright.net/belief



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 15:54:49 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 07:54:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402111641240.26583@hercules>
Message-ID: <20040211155449.7204.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> 
> > Usually the Pope takes the blame
> >as the most anachronistically conservative religious figure around,
> >but he's not a creationist.  In fact, compared to what's coming out
> >of the US Bible Belt, the Pope, even in his current most
> conservative
> >incarnation, looks rather progressive.
> 
> I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some
> scientists,
> the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the creation, and
> that studying the Universe using science from that moment on was OK.
> Sorry, but I don't have specific references.

Of course, when the Pope announces something like this, you will get
both atheists AND anti-papist protestants propagandizing against the
Big Bang and for a steady state hypothesis simply because if the Pope
endorses something, it must either be wrong (in the case of atheists),
or the work of the whore of babylon (in the opinion of anti-papists).

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 11 15:54:21 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:54:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <20040211152735.31171.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-8F45D8B65CAA11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/11/04 7:27) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>That is a rather unscientific jump to conclusions to reach. Have you
>interviewed them all?

Well, since Popper clearly defined what the term scientific means, I'll rephrase my original assertion in a properly scientific format: No Christian Church in the United States currently supports the theory of evolution. 

The caveats for the pedantic: The UUA is not Christian. Many liberal denominations take no position at all, leaving it to the "consciences of the faithful." (or some such wording)

Now, we'll move on to the "facts" as they stand, noting that some of them do not meet Popper's standard for rigor.

1) The Young Earth movement is one of the fastest growing groups within American fundamentalism
2) Creationists and their apologists are attempting to have their religious beliefs classified as science on equal footing with evolution via "Creation Science"
3) No -leader- of a large church body that I have spoken to has ever been willing to admit that they are not creationist. This includes at last count, 5 delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention, 1 bishop of the Methodist church, 3 bishops (and 2 bishops-elect) of the Anglican Church.  


There we go,

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 11 15:57:56 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 10:57:56 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402111641240.26583@hercules>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-0F1808815CAB11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/11/04 16:46) Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:

>I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some scientists,
>the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the creation, and that
>studying the Universe using science from that moment on was OK. Sorry, but
>I don't have specific references.


Again, I will state that the Pope's record on cosmology and astrophysics must also be taken along with his record on reproductive biology and infectious diseases. 

And, of course, the fact that he implies that intercourse between husband and wife can never be rape. But that's almost too ad hominem for these boards. :)


B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Wed Feb 11 16:08:15 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:08:15 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <20040211155449.7204.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040211155449.7204.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402111659440.26583@hercules>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>--- Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>>
>> I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some
>> scientists,
>> the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the creation, and
>> that studying the Universe using science from that moment on was OK.
>> Sorry, but I don't have specific references.
>
>Of course, when the Pope announces something like this, you will get
>both atheists AND anti-papist protestants propagandizing against the
>Big Bang and for a steady state hypothesis simply because if the Pope
>endorses something, it must either be wrong (in the case of atheists),

It seems from these posts that every position, creationist or atheist or
whatever, is extremized in the US. If an atheist says "the Pope said it,
therefore it's wrong"  that's a moron, not an atheist. Any non-religious
people would just think that what the Pope says has about zero influence
about something being right or wrong.

Alfio

>or the work of the whore of babylon (in the opinion of anti-papists).
>
>=====
>Mike Lorrey
>"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                       - Gen. John Stark
>"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                       - Mike Lorrey
>Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
>Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
>http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 16:10:45 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:10:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-8F45D8B65CAA11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <20040211161045.51894.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:
>  (2/11/04 7:27) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >That is a rather unscientific jump to conclusions to reach. Have you
> >interviewed them all?
> 
> Well, since Popper clearly defined what the term scientific means,
> I'll rephrase my original assertion in a properly scientific format:
> No Christian Church in the United States currently supports the
> theory of evolution. 
> 
> The caveats for the pedantic: The UUA is not Christian. Many liberal
> denominations take no position at all, leaving it to the "consciences
> of the faithful." (or some such wording)
> 
> Now, we'll move on to the "facts" as they stand, noting that some of
> them do not meet Popper's standard for rigor.
> 
> 1) The Young Earth movement is one of the fastest growing groups
> within American fundamentalism
> 2) Creationists and their apologists are attempting to have their
> religious beliefs classified as science on equal footing with
> evolution via "Creation Science"
> 3) No -leader- of a large church body that I have spoken to has ever
> been willing to admit that they are not creationist. This includes at
> last count, 5 delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention, 1 bishop
> of the Methodist church, 3 bishops (and 2 bishops-elect) of the
> Anglican Church.  
> 
> 
> There we go,

The Catholic Church has endorsed evolution, as have the
Unitarian/Universalists, while the Congregationalists are generally in
agreement, but getting them all to agree on anything in particular is
difficult. Anglican Bishop Robinson of NH has endorsed evolution as
well, last I heard.

Care for another revised statement?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 16:10:48 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:10:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-8F45D8B65CAA11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <20040211161049.45176.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:
>  (2/11/04 7:27) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >That is a rather unscientific jump to conclusions to reach. Have you
> >interviewed them all?
> 
> Well, since Popper clearly defined what the term scientific means,
> I'll rephrase my original assertion in a properly scientific format:
> No Christian Church in the United States currently supports the
> theory of evolution. 
> 
> The caveats for the pedantic: The UUA is not Christian. Many liberal
> denominations take no position at all, leaving it to the "consciences
> of the faithful." (or some such wording)
> 
> Now, we'll move on to the "facts" as they stand, noting that some of
> them do not meet Popper's standard for rigor.
> 
> 1) The Young Earth movement is one of the fastest growing groups
> within American fundamentalism
> 2) Creationists and their apologists are attempting to have their
> religious beliefs classified as science on equal footing with
> evolution via "Creation Science"
> 3) No -leader- of a large church body that I have spoken to has ever
> been willing to admit that they are not creationist. This includes at
> last count, 5 delegates to the Southern Baptist Convention, 1 bishop
> of the Methodist church, 3 bishops (and 2 bishops-elect) of the
> Anglican Church.  
> 
> 
> There we go,

The Catholic Church has endorsed evolution, as have the
Unitarian/Universalists, while the Congregationalists are generally in
agreement, but getting them all to agree on anything in particular is
difficult. Anglican Bishop Robinson of NH has endorsed evolution as
well, last I heard.

Care for another revised statement?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Wed Feb 11 16:13:19 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:13:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-0F1808815CAB11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
References: <r02010100-1032-0F1808815CAB11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402111708460.26583@hercules>

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004, Brent Neal wrote:

> (2/11/04 16:46) Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>
>>I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some scientists,
>>the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the creation, and that
>>studying the Universe using science from that moment on was OK. Sorry, but
>>I don't have specific references.
>
>
>Again, I will state that the Pope's record on cosmology and astrophysics
>must also be taken along with his record on reproductive biology and
>infectious diseases.

mmmh, not sure about that. I have a couple of fervently Christian
believing friends, who are working in chemistry and biology, and are
evolution supporters. I don't have the slightest idea of how they are able
to reconcile the different mindsets :-)

Alfio



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 16:17:44 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 08:17:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
	Anythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-0F1808815CAB11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <20040211161744.2841.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:
 
> Again, I will state that the Pope's record on cosmology and
> astrophysics must also be taken along with his record on reproductive
> biology and infectious diseases. 
> 
> And, of course, the fact that he implies that intercourse between
> husband and wife can never be rape. But that's almost too ad hominem
> for these boards. :)

That is rather easy: Catholic marriage vows do not say "I will honor
and submit to my husband, when I'm in the mood or don't have a
headache". Contracts mean what they say. If a woman consents to a
Catholic wedding, she should expect to take her wedding vows seriously.
The Church doesn't allow you to write your own vows, BTW.

I have less problem with church wedding vows than I do with state
marriage licensing, which is essentially polygamy, as you marry not
just your wife, but the state as well, which is why and how the DCYF
gets authority to interfere with domestic affairs. Marriage licensing
grew out of Jim Crow laws here in the US as a means of limiting
interracial marriage. Prior to the civil war, free people needed no
license to marry. Pre-civil-war marriage licenses were little more than
the equivalent of AKC papers for slaves.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From jonkc at att.net  Wed Feb 11 18:15:48 2004
From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:15:48 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
References: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
	<LAW10-OE233HvoFOAmE0001b493@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <01e201c3f0cb$1b345e30$95f44d0c@hal2001>

"Ed Wood" just came out on DVD; it's a great movie about the worst director
of all time.

   John K Clark     jonkc at att.net




From extropy at audry2.com  Wed Feb 11 21:14:38 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:14:38 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
Message-ID: <200402112114.i1BLEcQ25730@igor.synonet.com>


Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:

> I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some scientists,
> the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the creation, and that
> studying the Universe using science from that moment on was OK. Sorry, but
> I don't have specific references.

Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time, 115-116:

| Throughout the 1970s I had been mainly studying black holes, but in
| 1981 my interest in questions about the origin and fate of the
| universe was reawakened when I attended a conference on cosmology
| organized by the Jesuits in the Vatican. The Catholic Church had made
| a bad mistake with Galileo when it tried to lay down the law on a
| question of science, declaring that the sun went round the earth. Now,
| centuries later, it had decided to invite a number of experts to
| advise it on cosmology. At the end of the conference the participants
| were granted an audience with the pope. He told us that it was all
| right to study the evolution of the universe after the big bang, but
| we should not inquire into the big bang itself because that was the
| moment of Creation and therefore the work of God. I was glad then that
| he did know the subject of the talk I had just given at the
| conference, the possibility that space-time was finite but had no
| boundary, which means that it had no beginning, no moment of
| Creation. I had no desire to share the fate of Galileo, with whom I
| feel a strong sense of identity, partly because of the coincidence
| of having been born exactly 300 years after his death!

Major


From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 11 21:10:33 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:10:33 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <20040211161045.51894.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-BB5CDBAC5CD611D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/11/04 8:10) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>The Catholic Church has endorsed evolution, as have the
>Unitarian/Universalists, while the Congregationalists are generally in
>agreement, but getting them all to agree on anything in particular is
>difficult. Anglican Bishop Robinson of NH has endorsed evolution as
>well, last I heard.


No. Because 1) The Catholic Church has -not- to my knowledge, endorsed evolution. 2) UUA is -not- Christian, as I stated before, which leads me to believe that not only did you not read my email, you also have no idea what you're talking about, and the Anglican church has -not- endorsed evolution, which I know because I -was- Anglican before I left. 

B
--
Brent Neal
Geekery. Politics. Spirituality.
http://brentn.freeshell.org/blog
"Is reincarnation like rebooting your soul?"


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Feb 11 21:49:14 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 15:49:14 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-BB5CDBAC5CD611D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.1
	23.121]>
References: <20040211161045.51894.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
	<r02010100-1032-BB5CDBAC5CD611D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040211154654.01e54728@pop-server.satx.rr.com>


>
>"Is reincarnation like rebooting your soul?"

No. It's like rebooting your foot. It's like reinstalling your soul.

Damien Broderick
[former clod of the fields for 40 generations] 




From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 11 22:01:15 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:01:15 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040211154654.01e54728@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-D08B5D2A5CDD11D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/11/04 15:49) Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com> wrote:

>
>>
>>"Is reincarnation like rebooting your soul?"
>
>No. It's like rebooting your foot. It's like reinstalling your soul.
>


LOL! That's good. See what happens when I go to random .sigs. :)

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com  Wed Feb 11 22:01:56 2004
From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:01:56 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
Message-ID: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB3375@amazemail2.amazeent.com>

Please see "Address of Pope John Paul II to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences (October 22, 1996)"
http://www.newadvent.org/docs/jp02tc.htm

"Today, almost half a century after the publication of the encyclical, new knowledge has led to the recognition of the theory of evolution as more than a hypothesis. [Aujourdhui, pr?s dun demi-si?cle apr?s la parution de l'encyclique, de nouvelles connaissances conduisent ? reconnaitre dans la th?orie de l'?volution plus qu'une hypoth?se.]"

and

"Consequently, theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the spirit as emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man. Nor are they able to ground the dignity of the person."

The Anglican church has no official position on evolution, as far as I can tell. However, see "WHAT IS THE POSITION OF OTHER CHURCHES ON EVOLUTION?"
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/churches.htm

"The General Convention of the Episcopal Church issued a statement in September 1982 concerning evolution and creation science: "The terms 'creationism' and 'creation-science' . . . do not refer simply to the affirmation that God created the Earth and Heavens and everything in them, but specify certain methods and timing of the creative acts, and impose limits on these acts which are neither Scriptural nor accepted by many Christians." (cited in Frye, 1983, p. 4) The statement went on to "affirm in its belief the glorious ability of God to create in any manner", and rejected "the rigid dogmatism of the 'creationist' movement." (cited in Frye, 1983, p. 7) Episcopalian Bishop John Shelby Spong has written an entire book, Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism, which points out the problems with a literalistic interpretation of the Bible. (Spong, 1991)"

and

"The Roman Catholic Church... has declared that the acceptance of evolutionary theory is not incompatible with Catholicism, so long as one recognizes that at some point in human evolution, God inserted an immortal soul into humankind. In a 1950 Papal Encyclical titled Humani Generis, Pope Pius XII concluded, "The Teaching of the Church leaves the doctrine of Evolution as an open question, as long as it confines its speculations to the development, from other living matter already in existence, of the human body" ... "The Bible speaks to us of the origin of the universe and its makeup, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise, but in order to state the correct relationship of man with God and the universe . . . Any other teaching about the origin and makeup of the universe is alien to the intentions of the Bible, which does not wish to teach how heaven was made, but how to go to heaven."

It seems likely from my reading that the Eastern Orthodox churches do not support evolution.

Acy

[ -----Original Message-----
[ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
[ [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
[ Brent Neal
[ Sent: Wednesday, 11 February, 2004 15:11
[ To: ExI chat list
[ Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
[ 
[ 
[  (2/11/04 8:10) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
[ 
[ >The Catholic Church has endorsed evolution, as have the
[ >Unitarian/Universalists, while the Congregationalists are 
[ generally in
[ >agreement, but getting them all to agree on anything in particular is
[ >difficult. Anglican Bishop Robinson of NH has endorsed evolution as
[ >well, last I heard.
[ 
[ 
[ No. Because 1) The Catholic Church has -not- to my knowledge, 
[ endorsed evolution. 2) UUA is -not- Christian, as I stated 
[ before, which leads me to believe that not only did you not 
[ read my email, you also have no idea what you're talking 
[ about, and the Anglican church has -not- endorsed evolution, 
[ which I know because I -was- Anglican before I left. 
[ 
[ B
[ --
[ Brent Neal
[ Geekery. Politics. Spirituality.
[ http://brentn.freeshell.org/blog
[ "Is reincarnation like rebooting your soul?"
[ _______________________________________________
[ extropy-chat mailing list
[ extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
[ http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
[ 


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Wed Feb 11 22:51:31 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 16:51:31 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Oz newspaper poll on cloning
In-Reply-To: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB3375@amazemail2.amazeent .com>
References: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB3375@amazemail2.amazeent.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040211165010.01c48ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

Typically silly confused array of options:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/12/1076388469032.html

So far:

Human cloning
What is your view on human cloning?

Important scientific development - 11%
[]


Fantastic chance to achieve immortality - 7%
[]


Dangerous, crazy, illegal and immoral activity - 47%
[]


OK, if applied for medical purposes - 34%
[]


Total Votes: 85




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 11 22:53:59 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:53:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-BB5CDBAC5CD611D8A9E5000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
Message-ID: <20040211225359.2187.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:
>  (2/11/04 8:10) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >The Catholic Church has endorsed evolution, as have the
> >Unitarian/Universalists, while the Congregationalists are generally
> in
> >agreement, but getting them all to agree on anything in particular
> is
> >difficult. Anglican Bishop Robinson of NH has endorsed evolution as
> >well, last I heard.
> 
> 
> No. Because 1) The Catholic Church has -not- to my knowledge,
> endorsed evolution. 

It has. In 1996, the Pope himself made a public speech which stated
that it accepted various theories of evolution as valid scientific
theses EXCEPT scientific creationism. The Vatican's only difficulty
with some evolutionary theories is with materialistic claims that both
holy and human spirit, or qualia, is an emergent epiphenomenon of the
process of evolution, rather than an inherent property of the
pre-Big-Bang universe.

Evolution, both biological and cosmological, are accepted by the
Vatican and endorsed by its science academies. It is taught in Catholic
schools at all levels, from elementary to university level, and NOT on
an equal basis to creationism.

TO the Catholic Church, creationism is a heretical dependence upon
materialism to prove the literalness of a mythology which even the
Church currently accepts as metaphorical and not literal. You can even
find in many Catholic editions of the bible a footnote that the story
of genesis is not to be taken literally, but is a metaphor of God's
relationship to man.

The Church's acceptance of evolution has also been personally confirmed
to me by the 2nd in command of the La Sallette Order, who works at the
Vatican, and is a personal friend.

> 2) UUA is -not- Christian, as I stated before,

>From the UUA website:
"What about Jesus?

Classically, Unitarian Universalist Christians have understood Jesus as
a savior because he was a God-filled human being, not a supernatural
being. He was, and still is for many UUs, an exemplar, one who has
shown the way of redemptive love, in whose spirit anyone may live
generously and abundantly. Among us, Jesus' very human life and
teaching have been understood as products of, and in line with, the
great Jewish tradition of prophets and teachers. He neither broke with
that tradition nor superseded it.

Are Unitarian Universalists Christian?

Yes and no.

Yes, some Unitarian Universalists are Christian. Personal encounter
with the spirit of Jesus as the christ richly informs their religious
lives.

No, Unitarian Universalists are not Christian, if by Christian you mean
those who think that acceptance of any creedal belief whatsoever is
necessary for salvation. Unitarian Universalist Christians are
considered heretics by those orthodox Christians who claim none but
Christians are "saved." (Fortunately, not all the orthodox make that
claim.)

Yes, Unitarian Universalists are Christian in the sense that both
Unitarian and Universalist history are part of Christian history. Our
core principles and practices were first articulated and established by
liberal Christians. "


> which leads me to believe that not only did you not read my email,
> you also have no idea what you're talking about, and the Anglican
> church has -not- endorsed evolution, which I know because I -was-
> Anglican before I left. 

The Anglican Church website does not make any statements on evolution.
However the following link has this to say about evolution and
christianity in general:
http://www.meta-library.net/intro/evolu-body.html

"Evolution
To many people the relationship between science and religion is
epitomized by the clash over evolution. Over the past two decades
America has seen a significant rise in the number of Christian
"creationists" who believe the biblical story of creation must be taken
literally, and that the universe was therefore created in six days just
over six thousand years ago. But although there are some Christians who
insist on taking the Genesis account literally, the majority of
Christian believers understand this story metaphorically. Recently, the
Vatican Observatory in conjunction with the Berkeley-based Center for
Theology and the Natural Sciences held a conference on the issue of
evolution to which they invited theologians, philosophers, and
scientists from around the world. Here, Christian participants
overwhelming agreed that evolution was not in conflict with Christian
faith, and that on the contrary it could be seen as the way in which
God goes about being creative within the world. For these believers, an
understanding of the processes of evolution could indeed enhance their
faith.

The controversy over biological evolution began in 1859 when Charles
Darwin published his monumental book "On the Origin of Species by Means
of Natural Selection". Darwin's book suggested that instead of being
specially created by God, humans were the product of biological
evolution. As he later wrote: "Man is descended from a hairy quadruped,
furnished with a tail and pointed ears, probably arboreal in its
habits." Many religious believers in the nineteenth century felt that
Darwinian evolution had robbed humanity of its dignity, for how could
humans be created in the image of God if we were the descendants of
apes? Faced with this dilemma, they rebelled against Darwin's theory.
Yet even in the nineteenth century there were many theologians and
ministers - both Catholic and Protestant - who did not see a conflict
between their faith and Darwin's science. These more liberal thinkers
often went to great lengths to convince the public that evolution could
be harmonized with traditional religious views and values.

Today a new generation of Christian thinkers is again stressing that an
evolutionary perspective is compatible with their faith. A leading
voice in this debate is the Oxford University biochemist Arthur
Peacocke. Peacocke, who is now also an ordained minister in the
Anglican Church, believes that evolution can even enhance understanding
of the Judeo-Christian God. Whereas biblical literalists insist that
creation was a once only event that happened at the beginning of time,
Peacocke notes that evolution is compatible with the Christian idea of
creatio continua, the notion that God is continuously creating. As he
explains: "Whatever we meant by God being creator, it wasn't something
that God did once in the past, and then walked off ... It's something
that's going on all the time."

The point here is not that one must see God in the process of
evolution, but rather that there is nothing inherently incompatible
between an evolutionary view of life and a commitment to the Christian
scriptures."


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Wed Feb 11 22:58:36 2004
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 14:58:36 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
Message-ID: <402AB39C.768BE9E3@Genius.UCSD.edu>

Mike wrote:
> the entire Stargate SG-1 canon

	Interesting.  I haven't been watching those, but
	maybe I've been missing something.  I did watch
	many Babylon V episodes and enjoyed those, and
	of course have seen almost every Star Trek episode
	and movie ever made.  

> AI

	Yes!  That might be especially good, especially
	the final alien sequence.  Another one which might
	be pretty cool with DVD clarity was one of the 
	mission to mars scifi movies where they went inside
	the "face" building ... there's a great CG sequence
	in there.  

	I also wonder if the Mechanical Universe series is
	on DVD ... some of the math-physics CG sequences 
	are very nice (done by James Blinn & Tom Apostol
	I believe).

Brian wrote:
> signing up with Netflix and heavily renting

	Interesting suggestion.  I take it this is a web-based
	rental?  Shipping charges must apply if so...

Eugen wrote:
> anime ... Hayao Miyazaki ... Studio Ghibli

	Yes, can't forget the anime!  

> Cowboy Bebop

	I've seen most of those ... I guess the series ended
	with no new sequels?

Jay wrote:
> Momento probably works better on DVD than as a movie.

	Probably so!  I rented the video once, watched it straight
	through, then cheated and played the sequences in reverse
	order ... a bit time-consuming, but I had to do it :-)
	On DVD it would be much simpler...

> Pi is worth watching. 

	That was a weird one!  I know a few newage types who say
	that other movies based on the same idea are better ...
	I think they mentioned "Omega Code" and another one...

> try to find the Russian version of Solaris.

	Ahhh ... yes, this is one reason to have a multi-region
	DVD player!  I figure there are many foreign versions of
	movies without U.S. censorship or 'esthetic-edits' (not to
	mention foreign movies which either are too inaccessible
	or 'differently-moraled' for typical U.S. audiences).

Kevin wrote:
> Monty Python and the Holy Grail (Special Edition) In the special 
> edition you get to see the Lego Knights version of the Camelot song!

	worth noting!


	Thanks all for the suggestions.  I'm adding many to my
	wishlist...

	Best, Johnius


From dan at 3-e.net  Wed Feb 11 23:11:13 2004
From: dan at 3-e.net (Daniel Matthews)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:11:13 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
Message-ID: <200402121011.13161@3-e.net>

Attempting to force social change through the suppression of old patterns of 
behavior will usually fail. It is better to emphasize and encourage the 
behaviors that are desirable rather than trigger a backlash that is driven by 
any cognitive dissonance that your "revolutionary" approach may induce.

Even the Christian Church/s knows this, that is why so many of it's rituals 
are deliberate overlays on older pagan rituals.

Isn't revolution destructive and entropic, whereas evolution is creative and 
extropic?

I use the word evolution broadly, even genetic engineering can be seen as 
nature evolving a faster feedback loop (humans smart enough to be 
geneticists) for trying out new gene patterns, to be tested for their 
fitness, in terms of the longevity of their stability over time.

Where are the meme engineers when you need them...
Even a bad human behavior is "fit" if it propagates and is stable, you can't 
just rip it out of society without replacing it with a functionally 
equivalent meme that is more to your philosophical liking.

:o) Dan.
dan at 3-e.net



From nagero at chariot.net.au  Thu Feb 12 00:16:51 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:46:51 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Oz newspaper poll on cloning
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040211165010.01c48ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB3375@amazemail2.amazeent.com>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040211165010.01c48ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212094535.0249b480@mail.chariot.net.au>

Hi Damien, I can't raise you on your satx email address, keep getting bounces.

Apologies to everyone else for the bonus noise.

Emlyn

At 08:21 AM 12/02/2004, you wrote:
>Typically silly confused array of options:
>
>http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/12/1076388469032.html
>
>So far:
>
>Human cloning
>What is your view on human cloning?
>
>Important scientific development - 11%
>[]
>
>
>Fantastic chance to achieve immortality - 7%
>[]
>
>
>Dangerous, crazy, illegal and immoral activity - 47%
>[]
>
>
>OK, if applied for medical purposes - 34%
>[]
>
>
>Total Votes: 85
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From jacques at dtext.com  Wed Feb 11 23:21:38 2004
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:21:38 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <402AB39C.768BE9E3@Genius.UCSD.edu>
References: <402AB39C.768BE9E3@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <402AB902.4020504@dtext.com>

And a big nice pack of hardcore porn suited to your sexual interests.

What? Did I say anything wrong?

Jacques

Johnius wrote:

> Mike wrote:
> 
>>the entire Stargate SG-1 canon
> 
> 
> 	Interesting.  I haven't been watching those, but
> 	maybe I've been missing something.  I did watch
> 	many Babylon V episodes and enjoyed those, and
> 	of course have seen almost every Star Trek episode
> 	and movie ever made.  
> 
> 
>>AI
> 
> 
> 	Yes!  That might be especially good, especially
> 	the final alien sequence.  Another one which might
> 	be pretty cool with DVD clarity was one of the 
> 	mission to mars scifi movies where they went inside
> 	the "face" building ... there's a great CG sequence
> 	in there.  
> 
> 	I also wonder if the Mechanical Universe series is
> 	on DVD ... some of the math-physics CG sequences 
> 	are very nice (done by James Blinn & Tom Apostol
> 	I believe).
> 
> Brian wrote:
> 
>>signing up with Netflix and heavily renting
> 
> 
> 	Interesting suggestion.  I take it this is a web-based
> 	rental?  Shipping charges must apply if so...
> 
> Eugen wrote:
> 
>>anime ... Hayao Miyazaki ... Studio Ghibli
> 
> 
> 	Yes, can't forget the anime!  
> 
> 
>>Cowboy Bebop
> 
> 
> 	I've seen most of those ... I guess the series ended
> 	with no new sequels?
> 
> Jay wrote:
> 
>>Momento probably works better on DVD than as a movie.
> 
> 
> 	Probably so!  I rented the video once, watched it straight
> 	through, then cheated and played the sequences in reverse
> 	order ... a bit time-consuming, but I had to do it :-)
> 	On DVD it would be much simpler...
> 
> 
>>Pi is worth watching. 
> 
> 
> 	That was a weird one!  I know a few newage types who say
> 	that other movies based on the same idea are better ...
> 	I think they mentioned "Omega Code" and another one...
> 
> 
>>try to find the Russian version of Solaris.
> 
> 
> 	Ahhh ... yes, this is one reason to have a multi-region
> 	DVD player!  I figure there are many foreign versions of
> 	movies without U.S. censorship or 'esthetic-edits' (not to
> 	mention foreign movies which either are too inaccessible
> 	or 'differently-moraled' for typical U.S. audiences).
> 
> Kevin wrote:
> 
>>Monty Python and the Holy Grail (Special Edition) In the special 
>>edition you get to see the Lego Knights version of the Camelot song!
> 
> 
> 	worth noting!
> 
> 
> 	Thanks all for the suggestions.  I'm adding many to my
> 	wishlist...
> 
> 	Best, Johnius
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> 



From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Feb 12 00:51:54 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:51:54 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <200402121011.13161@3-e.net>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-A76FB3645CF511D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/12/04 10:11) Daniel Matthews <dan at 3-e.net> wrote:


>Even the Christian Church/s knows this, that is why so many of it's rituals 
>are deliberate overlays on older pagan rituals.

I think that's confusing cause and effect. The history of the early church is pretty clear about the "why"  - they were attempting, rather successfully, to subsume contemporary religions. The effect was as you said, though.


>
>Isn't revolution destructive and entropic, whereas evolution is creative and 
>extropic?

Except when its not. :)  Evolution does have dead ends, and sometime you need a little bit of "creative destruction" to get things back on track. Since we're being Xtian-obsessive today, I'll point to Martin Luther as an example of that.

The American Revolution was one too.


>
>Where are the meme engineers when you need them...
>Even a bad human behavior is "fit" if it propagates and is stable, you can't 
>just rip it out of society without replacing it with a functionally 
>equivalent meme that is more to your philosophical liking.

Can't? or shouldn't? 


B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 12 01:06:25 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 17:06:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <200402121011.13161@3-e.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402111640590.17987-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Daniel Matthews wrote:

> Attempting to force social change through the suppression of old patterns of
> behavior will usually fail. It is better to emphasize and encourage the
> behaviors that are desirable rather than trigger a backlash that is driven by
> any cognitive dissonance that your "revolutionary" approach may induce.
[snip]

I think Daniel may have gotten closer to the questions I was trying to raise.
(Offlist comments with Natasha and Mike have contributed to my thoughts).

I will pose the question in its most extreme form (since I am going to get
crucified anyway -- which may feed back into the historical discussion of religion)...

But how do extropians behave when they know the answer to the question:
   What is this human individual worth in terms of extropic potential?

Lets assume that the antiaging therapeutics fail.  What will be the value
of myself or Damien or Anders in another 40 years?  One can reasonably
assume our memories will be going down the tubes.  Now I, Anders and Damien
presumably have distinct extropic values.  Propose a reasonable argument
presenting a case as to how to determine that we are more extropic alive
than dead.  Though I hesitate to bring this up the question I have to ask
is whether this could have been a factor in Sasha's thinking?

R.





From brian at posthuman.com  Thu Feb 12 01:08:37 2004
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:08:37 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <402AB39C.768BE9E3@Genius.UCSD.edu>
References: <402AB39C.768BE9E3@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <402AD215.4020808@posthuman.com>

Johnius wrote:
> 
> Brian wrote:
> 
>>signing up with Netflix and heavily renting
> 
> 
> 	Interesting suggestion.  I take it this is a web-based
> 	rental?  Shipping charges must apply if so...
> 

http://www.netflix.com/Default?

No shipping charges, or rather they are built into the monthly fee. It 
has a free trial so give it a whirl.
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From neptune at superlink.net  Thu Feb 12 01:32:22 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:32:22 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
References: <402AB39C.768BE9E3@Genius.UCSD.edu>
	<402AD215.4020808@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <016201c3f108$10ee7040$31cd5cd1@neptune>

On Wednesday, February 11, 2004 8:08 PM Brian Atkins brian at posthuman.com
wrote:
> http://www.netflix.com/Default?
>
> No shipping charges, or rather they are built
> into the monthly fee. It has a free trial so give
> it a whirl.

I'm a Netflix addict as well.  It's actually one of the cheapest ways to
get lots of DVDs and they have a better selection than any retail outlet
I've been to.  Depending on how fast you watch films -- I see about two
or three a week -- you can typically save a bundle.

Of coruse, there's a downside.  One problem is I can't always predict
exactly when a DVD will show up.  Usually, it only takes a day or day to
get one, but if I'm having friends over and they want to see a film, we
usually hit one of the retail rental places.

Verily,

Dan
  See "The Hills of Rendome" at:
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/Rendome.html



From riel at surriel.com  Thu Feb 12 01:27:42 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:27:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402091047140.22938-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402091047140.22938-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112025470.9373@imladris.surriel.com>

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:

> So there is no way in hell that you are going to convince me that
> "only NASA seems to have the hardware" is an argument that is
> going to cut the cake.

In the case of a space probe, it's not about the CPU,
but it's about the _peripheral_ hardware. OK, so maybe
an open source developer would have found out about
the problem with the flash filling up, but none of us
would have been able to debug problems with eg. the
navigation software, or the "aim antenna and communicate
back to earth" software.

90% of the software isn't the OS and isn't related to the
CPU. That is my point.

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Feb 12 01:56:32 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:56:32 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402111640590.17987-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-AECEA4285CFE11D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/11/04 17:06) Robert J. Bradbury <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:

>I will pose the question in its most extreme form (since I am going to get
>crucified anyway -- which may feed back into the historical discussion of religion)...
>
>But how do extropians behave when they know the answer to the question:
>   What is this human individual worth in terms of extropic potential?

This is one of those questions that as my major professor once famously said "has no right answers, but a lot of wrong ones." :)

>
>Lets assume that the antiaging therapeutics fail.  What will be the value
>of myself or Damien or Anders in another 40 years?  One can reasonably
>assume our memories will be going down the tubes.  Now I, Anders and Damien
>presumably have distinct extropic values.  Propose a reasonable argument
>presenting a case as to how to determine that we are more extropic alive
>than dead.  Though I hesitate to bring this up the question I have to ask
>is whether this could have been a factor in Sasha's thinking?


There are problems with stating the question this way. Your assumption is somewhat vague, as you've not defined exactly what "anti-aging therapuetics fail" means (i.e. does this mean we simply never figure out how to upload ourselves to a computer? or does it mean that we fail to maintain our current levels of geriatric medicine?)  Further, you assume that someone's extropic value is a predictable quantifier in absence of knowledge of outcomes. I'm not entirely certain that I'm comfortable with that valuation -on an individual level- due to the variability in people's creative/extropic output. (Demostration by analogy - Einstein's later work was of much less value than his early work, but John Wheeler was exactly the opposite in that his work became progressively more valuable.  Richard Feynman's work was uniformly valuable.)  

I'm more than willing to talk about it in terms of statistics or ensemble averages, though.  But I can't find a way to do so that doesn't make me sound like a raving eugenicist.

B

-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Feb 12 01:59:23 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:59:23 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <20040211225359.2187.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-14EFE8055CFF11D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/11/04 14:53) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:
>>  (2/11/04 8:10) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>The Church's acceptance of evolution has also been personally confirmed
>to me by the 2nd in command of the La Sallette Order, who works at the
>Vatican, and is a personal friend.
>

Fair enough. 



>> 2) UUA is -not- Christian, as I stated before,
>
>>From the UUA website:

I'm glad you looked this up, since its the brochure that I have sitting in front of me.


>No, Unitarian Universalists are not Christian, if by Christian you mean
>those who think that acceptance of any creedal belief whatsoever is
>necessary for salvation. Unitarian Universalist Christians are
>considered heretics by those orthodox Christians who claim none but
>Christians are "saved." (Fortunately, not all the orthodox make that
>claim.)
>

This is the important statement about the UU faith here. They, as a  group, are -not- Christian, as the atheist and neopagan UUs at my church here in Asheville will heartily confirm. -Some- UUs hold belief in Jesus Christ as Savior, which is the fundamental definition of what a Christian is. But the UUA, does not espouse that doctrine.


>Yes, Unitarian Universalists are Christian in the sense that both
>Unitarian and Universalist history are part of Christian history. Our
>core principles and practices were first articulated and established by
>liberal Christians. "

This statement only says that the history of the Church is in the tradition of liberal Christianity. It makes no statement about their -current- doctrine.


>> the Anglican
>> church has -not- endorsed evolution, which I know because I -was-
>> Anglican before I left. 
>
>The Anglican Church website does not make any statements on evolution.
>However the following link has this to say about evolution and
>christianity in general:


That's right, it doesn't, because just as the Anglican church is currently divided over the issue of ordaining homosexuals, they are divided over Creationism.  Unfortunately, the Church lacks the spine to confront the fundamentalists in their midst on this issue,  just as it took the acts of Fr. Robinson to force them to confront those same recidivists on the topic of ordaining homosexuals.

I will also point out that the Episcopal Church, i.e. the branch of the Anglican communion in America has schismed in the past century over such issues, one such being over the ordination of women (as well as other attendant issues related to the revision of their prayer book).  The other was when a conservative wing of the Episcopal Church separated to form the Charismatic Episcopal Church. Apparently the more orthodox bishops thought speaking in tongues was somewhat declasse. :P


Mike, I think the problem between our viewpoints has something to do with cultural influence. You're up in New Hampshire, where the populace tends to be a bit better educated and a bit less religiously conservative, while I'm down in the Bible Belt, where people still think that "if the King James version was good enough for the Apostle Paul, its good enough for me." :P

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From riel at surriel.com  Thu Feb 12 02:05:40 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:05:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112059290.9373@imladris.surriel.com>

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, David Lubkin wrote:

> (a)  Migrate people and industry off-world, and turn the planet into a
> nature preserve

I'd also turn it into a holiday resort.  Unless it has value for
people, it won't be preserved in the long run ...

> (d)  Take species with us to space

Absolutely.  I want cheese, meat and singing birds in orbit, so we
need to take cows and birds with us to space.  Probably pork and
chicken too ... and all the good sushi fish ;)

> (e)  Modify species to suit non-terrestrial planetary environments

Mmmm, maybe later.  Lets move into space first and do the changing
after we run out of matter to build habitats from, or have people
change themselves in order to be able to move between habitats without
having to wait for the bus...

> (f)  Increase species sentience (a la Clifford Simak or Cordwainer Smith)
> (g) Increase sentience of living animals

Dunno about that.  At the moment it seems like 3 cows share 2 minds
and that's probably the best state for them to be considering what
we use them for ...

> (h)  Upload, to transhumanely clear the way for disassembling the planet

I believe in free will and don't want to force people into doing
something like that. I don't think I'd want to do it myself, at
least not until I've lived a long and satisfying corporeal life.

Would be a good thing to do after 80 or 90 years of physical age,
though ... discarding the faulty body and continuing without it.

> (i)  Move to an L-5 style habitat

Count me in.

> (j)  Disassemble the planet without removing or uploading the animals

What a shame.  There's so much other mass in the solar system it
just doesn't make sense to dismantle that one small planet.  The
entertainment value alone exceeds its raw materials value...

> (k)  Leave animalia to their own devices

Maybe, we don't want to endanger the tourists too much though ;)

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Thu Feb 12 02:10:04 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:10:04 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Let's get ready to Rrrrrumbllllle!
References: <r02010100-1032-14EFE8055CFF11D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <000801c3f10d$54347a20$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Seems this war is just heating up. So be it, Islamo-facist pigs.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/9771-print.shtml

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040210-105654-8823r.htm

REVERMORE


From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Feb 12 02:13:52 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:13:52 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you
	TrustAnythingfrom the Bible - Wise Maji or Not?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402111641240.26583@hercules>
Message-ID: <003b01c3f10d$dc0d16a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

 
> Alfio Puglisi
> 
> I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some 
> scientists, the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the 
> creation, and that studying the Universe using science from that 
> moment on was OK. Sorry, but I don't have specific references.
> 
> Alfio

It was in Hawking's Brief History of Time.  Perhaps the 
RC church has recognized that in embracing Hawking, they 
can partially atone for their reprehensible treatment of
Galileo.

spike





From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Feb 12 02:26:53 2004
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:26:53 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] A real (therapeutic) cloning advance 
Message-ID: <000d01c3f10f$addc3840$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Hi Extropes,

The following may be of interest. 

----
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040212/D80LCIA00.html

"WASHINGTON (AP) - Researchers in South Korea for the first
time have cloned a human embryo and then culled stem cells from 
it, marking an important step toward one day growing patients'
own replacement tissue to treat diseases.

The experiment is sure to revive controversy over human cloning,
both in the United States and internationally.

...

Scientists from Seoul National University report they succeeded 
- thanks, they say, to using extremely fresh eggs donated by South
Korean volunteers and finding a gentler way of handling the genetic
material inside them.

The report appears in Friday's edition of Science magazine.

----

Regards,
Brett Paatsch












From riel at surriel.com  Thu Feb 12 02:14:23 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:14:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Eugen Leitl, you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
References: <20040209192822.63870.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
	<002801c3ef4e$836aadc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112113350.9373@imladris.surriel.com>

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Russell Evermore wrote:

> -You're a dolt if you don't spend hours and hours figuring out what a MUA
> MALWARE FC2015's are.

Not knowing how exactly email works doesn't make you a dolt.
However, accusing Eugen without evidence might ;)

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From riel at surriel.com  Thu Feb 12 02:23:59 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:23:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you got
	Klez
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112122240.9373@imladris.surriel.com>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, emlyn on nagero wrote:

> Multiuser... what for?

Security.  Every time a normal user runs a virus-loaden program,
that program wouldn't have the permissions necessary to infect
the rest of the system (or, after the introduction of networks,
other systems on the net).

In short, if the system had been multiuser and permissions would
have been split out between the admin user and normal users, we
would not have had the whole virus mess that's wasting my bandwidth
as we speak.

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From riel at surriel.com  Thu Feb 12 02:25:29 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:25:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you got
	Klez
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040210230919.02486e60@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210121919.GC15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210230919.02486e60@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112124450.9373@imladris.surriel.com>

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, emlyn on nagero wrote:

> If you needed multi-user, you got something of the ilk of SCO Unix (boo
> hiss!!!).

... which even SCO doesn't seem to use any more ;)

At least, not for hosting their web site, or their mail
server, or their ftp server, or ...

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From nagero at chariot.net.au  Thu Feb 12 03:42:12 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:12:12 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you
	got Klez
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112122240.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112122240.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212131005.02444028@mail.chariot.net.au>

This is now out of context. I know what Multiuser support is for and why 
it's a damned good idea. I wished I had it in the 80s on DOS and Windows 
PCs, but only for really geeky reasons; given the niche those machines 
occupied (non networked minimal computing platforms for homes and small 
business), it just wasn't necessary. They also didn't have 3D accelerated 
graphics, or DSL modems.

Emlyn

At 11:53 AM 12/02/2004, you wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, emlyn on nagero wrote:
>
> > Multiuser... what for?
>
>Security.  Every time a normal user runs a virus-loaden program,
>that program wouldn't have the permissions necessary to infect
>the rest of the system (or, after the introduction of networks,
>other systems on the net).
>
>In short, if the system had been multiuser and permissions would
>have been split out between the admin user and normal users, we
>would not have had the whole virus mess that's wasting my bandwidth
>as we speak.
>
>Rik
>--
>"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
>Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
>by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Thu Feb 12 02:53:49 2004
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:53:49 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Oz newspaper poll on cloning
References: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB3375@amazemail2.amazeent.com>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040211165010.01c48ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <001d01c3f113$70fb5ce0$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Damien Broderick wrote:

> Typically silly confused array of options:
> 
> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/12/1076388469032.html

Not only the options but also the article itself is disappointing.

Every time the media gives these clowns a plug it makes it harder to 
get a real discussion on the ethics and science of therapeutic cloning
happening. This is not only the case in the general community its also
the case in the parliament. 

If clonaid actually had a clone and did not want to disclose the id of 
the parent, it seems that all they would need to do is send two 
tissues samples (anonymously would be fine). One tissue sample could
be a large adult nail clipping (from the cloned individual), the other the
placenta from the neonate (alleged clone). 

Regards,
Brett Paatsch




From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Feb 12 02:46:10 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:46:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Let's get ready to Rrrrrumbllllle!
In-Reply-To: <000801c3f10d$54347a20$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-9E07F6045D0511D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/11/04 18:10) Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:

>Seems this war is just heating up. So be it, Islamo-facist pigs.
>
>http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/9771-print.shtml
>
>http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040210-105654-8823r.htm
>
>REVERMORE


So has anyone here actually seen estimates, published or unpublished, of estimated al-Qaeda activity here that haven't come from the WH press office or a Republican congresscritter?

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Feb 12 02:53:14 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:53:14 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-14EFE8055CFF11D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <004601c3f113$5bf34c90$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Brent Neal:
>...while I'm down in the Bible Belt, where people still think that "if
the 
> King James version was good enough for the Apostle Paul, its 
> good enough for me." :P
> -- 
> Brent Neal

Brent, where in the bible belt?  

Do post answer offlist, for I noticed a couple of the 
evolution/religion debaters are up to 8 for the day.  

Great discussion!  All participants are to be commended 
for maintaining a mostly civil tone.  {8-]

spike (bible belt escapee, y'all)








From spike66 at comcast.net  Thu Feb 12 02:59:33 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 18:59:33 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112059290.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
Message-ID: <004901c3f114$3df45ad0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, David Lubkin wrote:
> 
> > (a)  Migrate people and industry off-world, and turn the 
> > planet into a nature preserve...


Here's a thought experiment: imagine suddenly removing
all humans from earth but leaving it otherwise unharmed.
Would not that open a huge ecological niche into which
would rush some other beast?  Those who understand the
mechanisms of evolution, would that cause evolutionary
pressure for chimps, gorillas or bonobos to evolve sentience?  
Or would it actually remove ecological pressure, since humans
are actively selecting for intelligence in dogs, cats,
and perhaps to some extent primates?

spike



From riel at surriel.com  Thu Feb 12 03:01:49 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:01:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you got
	Klez
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212131005.02444028@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112122240.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040212131005.02444028@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112200560.9373@imladris.surriel.com>

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, emlyn on nagero wrote:

> This is now out of context. I know what Multiuser support is for and why
> it's a damned good idea. I wished I had it in the 80s on DOS and Windows
> PCs, but only for really geeky reasons; given the niche those machines
> occupied (non networked minimal computing platforms for homes and small
> business), it just wasn't necessary. They also didn't have 3D accelerated
> graphics, or DSL modems.

They had floppy drives, though, and virusses spread like crazy.
At least, they did in the early 90's.  No idea what happened
afterwards, since I haven't used a single user OS since 1994.

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From nagero at chariot.net.au  Thu Feb 12 04:52:15 2004
From: nagero at chariot.net.au (emlyn on nagero)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:22:15 +0930
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl, you
	got Klez
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112200560.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112122240.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040212131005.02444028@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112200560.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212142054.024ed820@mail.chariot.net.au>

At 12:31 PM 12/02/2004, you wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, emlyn on nagero wrote:
>
> > This is now out of context. I know what Multiuser support is for and why
> > it's a damned good idea. I wished I had it in the 80s on DOS and Windows
> > PCs, but only for really geeky reasons; given the niche those machines
> > occupied (non networked minimal computing platforms for homes and small
> > business), it just wasn't necessary. They also didn't have 3D accelerated
> > graphics, or DSL modems.
>
>They had floppy drives, though, and virusses spread like crazy.
>At least, they did in the early 90's.  No idea what happened
>afterwards, since I haven't used a single user OS since 1994.

True enough. OTOH, can you convince me that 90+% of machines which were 
single user machines wouldn't have been always used with administrator 
permissions, circumventing all security?

Emlyn

>Rik
>--
>"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
>Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
>by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Thu Feb 12 04:13:20 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:13:20 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Hmm . . . the Raelians have been out
	of the news lately
Message-ID: <402AFD60.EB551E97@mindspring.com>

-----
(from AAP (via news.com.au) 12.02.04)

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8654751%255E1702,00.html

Clone baby 'born in Australia'
By Nikki Todd
February 11, 2004

THE controversial international cloning group Clonaid today claimed it had 
successfully created its sixth child, following the birth of a baby boy in 
Sydney last week.

The child is said to have been born in a Sydney hospital on February 5, 
2004, to infertile parents living in the greater Sydney area.

Head of the Clonaid project, biochemist Brigitte Boisselier, who is in 
Australia to monitor the birth, said the boy had been released from 
hospital and was being monitored by a local pediatrician.

"It happened last Thursday morning, the baby is a little boy," Dr 
Boisselier told AAP.

"We waited a few days to make sure that everything was okay, but like the 
first five babies born last year, he was perfectly healthy and reactions 
are perfectly normal.

13a52c.jpg

"The parents are an infertile couple, and the father is the one who gave 
the cells to have the baby.

"The mother has been carrying the child, so it is very easy, the situation."

Dr Boisselier declined to reveal further details about the child, his 
family, or their doctor, for privacy reasons.

Clonaid grabbed international headlines last year, after it claimed to have 
created the first cloned human baby, a girl named Eve.

Since then, the organisation says a further five cloned babies have been 
born, including the Sydney boy.

Another seven babies are expected to be born in various countries before 
the end of February, as part of a new group of implantations.

Clonaid is linked to the quasi-religious Raelian Movement which believes 
aliens created life on Earth with cloning being the key to humanity's 
survival.

But the organisation's claims have been dismissed as a hoax by the wider 
scientific, medical and religious communities, due to its failure to 
produce DNA proof of the babies.

Dr Boisselier, usually based in Las Vegas, will remain in Australia for 
another week as part of scientific documentation of the birth which she 
says will validate their claims.

"What we are doing right now, and hopefully it will be published by April, 
we are collecting those cells and there is an independent lab in America 
that will do all the testing," Dr Boisselier said.

"They will look to what we are doing and what the pediatrician has done so 
far.

"This is the pediatrician chosen by the parents, he is based in Sydney and 
he is watching everything and documenting everything if there is the need 
for any more publication then it is documented here in Australia."

She said baby Eve, who recently celebrated her first birthday, was doing 
well and living in Israel with her parents.

AAP

-----

peter


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Thu Feb 12 23:51:38 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:51:38 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] 3D printers, eink scanner wands, protein producers
Message-ID: <000601c3f1c4$54098560$abee17cb@renegade>

Would it be possible to combine 3-D printers with a materials assembler (and
also possibly printed circuits, which are being worked on by one of the eink
scientist founders, and flat batteries (some are 'paper' batteries))?
Different sized heads (choice of), different materials being exuded,
controlled printing environment (pressure, temperature)...

Technology Review from MIT Nov 2003 contains an article on 3D printers,
pointing out newest uses and cheapest machines...

also has the following brief article (with a photo of the device, which
looks like an elongated remote control)
E PAPER PRINTER
Electronic paper, made of charge-sensitive "ink" particles embedded in a
thin plastic film, promises lightweight, flexible displays that consume
minimal battery power. But e-paper has typically required a layer of
electronics behind the film to turn the particles on and off, adding bulk
and cost. Now researchers at the palo alto research center have developed a
handheld device that can print information from a computer directly onto
e-paper; the device activates the ink particles electrostatically as it's
swiped across the paper's surface. Parc researchers plan to use the device
initially to print on large e-paper whiteboards. In the future, the device
could also be used to scan information from the whiteboard into a computer.
"the idea of a scanning wand in conjunction with electronic paper is a
really important step," says nicholas sheridon, electronic-paper pioneer and
research director at ann arbor, mi-based parc spinoff gyricon. Parc has
multiple patents pending on the technology.

Also:
CELL-FREE PROTEINS
Protein-based drugs are a fast-growing class of new medicines, but they cost
20 to 100 times more to make than conventional drugs. One reason is that
proteins can only be made by living cells, which are not very efficient
producers. Researchers at Stanford University believe they can cut costs by
doing away with the cells and instead exploiting the protein-making
machinery inside them. Chemical engineer Jim Swartz and his colleagues have
come up with a way of growing bacteria, busting them open, pulling out their
innards, and adding a soup of chemicals that mimics the inside of a cell.
Also tossed into the mix are amino acids (proteins' building blocks),
enzymes, and strands of dna that encode the protein to be churned out. With
no cells to keep alive, all those parameters can be fine-tuned for protein
production. Swartz says the method can boost protein production five- to
10-fold and cut up to 80 percent of the capital costs. The researchers
founded fundamental applied biology in san francisco, ca, to commercialize
the technique.

With regard to 'Cell-free Proteins' I wonder if this has any applications
for vegetarians who want to add to their diet without being involved in
animal killing?






From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Fri Feb 13 00:10:30 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:10:30 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
References: <004901c3f114$3df45ad0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <001201c3f1c5$cca01380$abee17cb@renegade>

The sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in 500 million years, well
prior to it turning
into a red giant.

Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs and cats, not
even in sheepdogs.
Otherwise some very smart cats and dogs would have come into existence some
time ago.
Intelligence selection for dogs would also relate to increasing their
vocabulary and social
signalling. Active selection would have produced results even in one or two
centuries. (Say
500 cat generations = 250 years?)

All animals down to the smallest deserve to be boosted, even if this entails
integrating human
architecture (neural) into them. The ecosphere and the nature of the planet
(its physical nature)
will be irreversably changed by the Escalation (Singularity). The direction
of that change is a
matter of different opinions by different persons.

'Ecological pressure' does not operate on immortals with control of their
environment, as Damien
notes in his argument for Exes. Fashion may temporarily (or permanently)
push beings into particular
forms and groups.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:59 PM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Animals


>
> > On Sun, 8 Feb 2004, David Lubkin wrote:
> >
> > > (a)  Migrate people and industry off-world, and turn the
> > > planet into a nature preserve...
>
>
> Here's a thought experiment: imagine suddenly removing
> all humans from earth but leaving it otherwise unharmed.
> Would not that open a huge ecological niche into which
> would rush some other beast?  Those who understand the
> mechanisms of evolution, would that cause evolutionary
> pressure for chimps, gorillas or bonobos to evolve sentience?
> Or would it actually remove ecological pressure, since humans
> are actively selecting for intelligence in dogs, cats,
> and perhaps to some extent primates?
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>




From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Fri Feb 13 00:27:33 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:27:33 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alan Shepard No. 1 USA
Message-ID: <001e01c3f1c8$2ebb83e0$abee17cb@renegade>

Just rereading Stephen Baxter's bittersweet 'Phase Space' (including the
very extropian - perhaps almost a rip off - 'The Gravity Mine'/'Touching
Centauri') and there is yet another John Glenn reference. As one born on the
day Alan Shepard became the second sentient in space I am tired of seeing
John Glenn being referred to in half the US texts I read, and the words
"sub-orbital" being routinely inserted as a codicil for Alan.

"In space" means "in space". Orbital and sub-orbital are irrlevant to this
particular issue, just as whether you escape from Earth's gravity well is
irrelevant. You can be "first out of the gravity well" but this is different
to "first into space". Poor Alan Shepard! John Glenn is the 2nd American
human in space - others are 3rd, 4th and so on. Well, at least Alan got to
go to the moon, which must have been a consolation at the age of 47....




From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Fri Feb 13 00:38:16 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:38:16 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mars core: soft, and maybe hard at the pip
Message-ID: <002601c3f1c9$adccb360$abee17cb@renegade>

Further to years earlier discussion on the Martian (near-vacuum) atmosphere,
the solar wind, planetary chemistry and the lack of a magnetosphere: new
information. A good reason to get to Mars for more research. Nanotech
transformation can resculpture the planet in decades: perhaps
hitech/nanotech may be required to resculpture the interior - and create a
permanent atmosphere. (If we don't hold it in via a nanomembrane.) (Makes me
think of the novel 'Bloom.')

http://www.geotimes.org/may03/NN_mars.html

Molten martian core

The more researchers study Mars, the more similarities they seem to find
between the Red Planet and Earth. The latest parallels come from the planet'
s enigmatic interior. As is the case with Earth's, the martian core appears
to be about half the size of the planet and, to some extent, liquid iron,
according to new research out of NASA.

Writing in the March 7 online edition of Science, Chuck Yoder and others
report on three years of radio tracking data from the Mars Global Surveyor,
which reveals a surface bulge on Mars and the first direct evidence of a
liquid martian core.

This artist's concept of the interior of Mars shows a hot liquid core about
half the radius of the planet. Like Earth's, the core is mostly made of iron
with some possible lighter elements such as sulfur. The mantle is the darker
material between the core and the thin crust. NASA/JPL.

"The gravitational pull of the Sun causes a bulge in Mars toward the Sun and
away from the Sun," says co-author Alex Konopliv. "Because we are measuring
the gravity field of Mars, we see the bulge not only on the surface of Mars
but also throughout the planet including the bulge in the core." Yoder's
team found a surface bulge of 0.7 centimeters, much smaller than the tidal
bulge on Earth but large enough to indicate that Mars' core cannot be solid.
A solid core would not deform and would show very little gravitational tide.

The findings, however, do not reveal whether the martian core is entirely
liquid or has a solid inner core with a liquid outer shell. "It may have a
solid inner core, like Earth. However, this measurement is insensitive to
that possibility," Yoder says.

Twenty years ago, David Stevenson, a planetary sciences professor at
Caltech, favored a Mars with no inner core, one entirely liquid, but now he
sees the core differently, with a solid inner core and a thin liquid outer
core, much like Earth's. The presence of sulfur in the core, he says, would
dramatically lower the melting point of iron. "So if the core were pure
iron, it would indeed freeze with its high freezing point, but because we
expect the core from general chemical considerations to have elements, such
as sulfur - which is an antifreeze, like salt on an icy road - the outermost
part of it should be liquid," he says.

On Earth, seismological and geomagnetic evidence give researchers clues to
the planet's interior. No seismological evidence from Mars exists to help
determine the composition of its core. And unlike Earth, which has a large
magnetic field generated by the motion of its outer fluid core, Mars
currently has no magnetic field. This absence has generated speculation on
the core's structure. "One of the possible explanations suggested decades
ago for that absence was that Mars has a solid core; if you have a solid
core, you cannot generate a magnetic field because it's not enough to have
an electrical conductor - you have to have a dynamo process," Stevenson
says.

Yoder and others' research rules out that possibility, he says, but further
complicates the puzzle as to why Mars has no magnetic field. Stevenson
thinks it has something to do with a lack of heat flow needed to set the
core in motion. Because Mars is smaller than Earth and has no plate
tectonics, the planet lacks an efficient way of losing heat to the exterior,
he says - a feature that separates Earth not only from Mars but also from
the rest of the solar system. "I've speculated that there's a direct link
between whether a planet has plate tectonics and whether it has a magnetic
field. Earth is the only terrestrial planet with both a magnetic field and
plate tectonics."

Lisa M. Pinsker




From extropy at unreasonable.com  Thu Feb 12 06:05:17 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 01:05:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alan Shepard No. 1 USA
In-Reply-To: <001e01c3f1c8$2ebb83e0$abee17cb@renegade>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040212005349.042cb270@mail.comcast.net>

At 04:27 PM 2/12/2004 -0800, Avatar Polymorph wrote:

>"In space" means "in space". Orbital and sub-orbital are irrlevant to this
>particular issue, just as whether you escape from Earth's gravity well is
>irrelevant. You can be "first out of the gravity well" but this is different
>to "first into space". Poor Alan Shepard! John Glenn is the 2nd American
>human in space - others are 3rd, 4th and so on. Well, at least Alan got to
>go to the moon, which must have been a consolation at the age of 47....

Ironically, you omitted Gus Grissom, who was the actual second American 
human in space, through his flight on Liberty Bell 7, seven months before 
John Glenn. Grissom was also commander of the first Gemini mission, on 
which he was the first human to maneuver a spacecraft. After backing up 
Gemini 6, he was chosen as the first Apollo commander, and consequently 
became one of the three astronauts to die in the Apollo 1 fire.

Besides, of course, being a test pilot, LTC Grissom had flown 100 combat 
missions in Korea.


-- David Lubkin.




From es at popido.com  Thu Feb 12 08:24:14 2004
From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:24:14 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <01e201c3f0cb$1b345e30$95f44d0c@hal2001>
References: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>	<LAW10-OE233HvoFOAmE0001b493@hotmail.com>
	<01e201c3f0cb$1b345e30$95f44d0c@hal2001>
Message-ID: <402B382E.6080003@popido.com>

John K Clark wrote:

>"Ed Wood" just came out on DVD; it's a great movie about the worst director
>of all time.
>  
>

Well, pre-Jar Jar Binks at least.


Erik



From es at popido.com  Thu Feb 12 08:28:49 2004
From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:28:49 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <20040211114443.GR25287@leitl.org>
References: <4029897D.720AC330@Genius.UCSD.edu>
	<20040211114443.GR25287@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <402B3941.6060601@popido.com>

Eugen Leitl wrote:

>On the long run we'll see fully immersive (both scripted and interactive)
>recordings.
>  
>

Online gaming is already there. Playing a few hours of Heroquest is much 
like directing and acting in your own little real time movie.

>Of the classics, I wouldn't miss Ghost in the Shell, Wings of Honneamise,
>Vampire Hunter D - Bloodlust, Blood the last vampire, Serial Experiments Lain; of the newer stuff Animatrix and
>Jin-Roh (The Wolf Brigade), Cowboy Bebop (haven't seen latter yet). There are a few more, but I can't
>remember their names right now.
>  
>

Metropolis (the anime) is also quite good. And then there's Akira of course.


Erik



From dan at 3-e.net  Thu Feb 12 09:08:44 2004
From: dan at 3-e.net (Daniel Matthews)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:08:44 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <200402120413.i1C4Dnc13339@tick.javien.com>
References: <200402120413.i1C4Dnc13339@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <200402122008.44996@3-e.net>

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 03:13 pm, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:51:54 -0500
> From: Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org>
<snip>
> >Isn't revolution destructive and entropic, whereas evolution is creative
> > and extropic?
>
> Except when its not. :)  Evolution does have dead ends, and sometime you
> need a little bit of "creative destruction" to get things back on track.
> Since we're being Xtian-obsessive today, I'll point to Martin Luther as an
> example of that.

Evolution has no direction as such, therefore "dead ends" are not a question 
of a "wrong path" whatever they were, they were fit until the context changed 
so much that they are no longer fit patterns.

>
> The American Revolution was one too.
>

I'm sure all those deaths could have been avoided, if more enlightened humans 
were guiding society at the time.

> >Where are the meme engineers when you need them...
> >Even a bad human behavior is "fit" if it propagates and is stable, you
> > can't just rip it out of society without replacing it with a functionally
> > equivalent meme that is more to your philosophical liking.
>
> Can't? or shouldn't?
>

Yes one or the other. ;o)
Probably "shouldn't", but that is an assumption as the possibility needs to be 
tested before "Can't" can be considered invalid. Then there is the argument 
that "can't" expands to "can't, if you wish to avoid entropy, i.e. social 
chaos of some form".


:o) Dan.
dan at 3-e.net



From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Thu Feb 12 10:14:22 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:14:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Religion: Subject Change! How can you Trust
In-Reply-To: <200402112114.i1BLEcQ25730@igor.synonet.com>
References: <200402112114.i1BLEcQ25730@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402121113410.27390@hercules>

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Major wrote:

>
>Alfio Puglisi <puglisi at arcetri.astro.it> wrote:
>
>> I read somewhere some years ago that, in a meeting with some scientists,
>> the Pope pretty much acknowledged the Big Bang as the creation, and that
>> studying the Universe using science from that moment on was OK. Sorry, but
>> I don't have specific references.
>
>Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time, 115-116:
>
>| Throughout the 1970s I had been mainly studying black holes, but in
>[...]

Ah, that's it! Thanks, I read that book many years ago.

Alfio


From amara at amara.com  Thu Feb 12 10:31:04 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:31:04 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Religion: A discussion
Message-ID: <p05100300bc51028af53c@[150.146.134.133]>

There are two anniversaries next week:

February 15, 1564 Galileo's birthday
February 17, 1600 Giordano Bruno burned at the stake

from http://www.amara.com/astro100/HistoricalAstronomy.pdf

(more links to these two men, down the page here:
http://www.amara.com/astro100/astro100syllabus.html)


Giordano Bruno (1548-1600) - He might have been the most influential
Italian Renaissance philosopher. He is best remembered for his grand
vision of an infinite Universe containing an infinity of worlds, and
for being burned at the stake for his heretical views (on 17
February 1600 in the spot marked in Roma's Campo di Fiori). He was
not mathematical or scientific, but contained a fertile mind, and,
in his writings, there is a tenuous thread that joins Bruno's
thoughts to those of Galileo, Newton, Einstein and to those of
today's physicists.
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Bruno_Giordano.html



Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
He pioneered the modern scientific concepts of observation,
experimentation, and the testing of hypotheses through careful
quantitative measurements. His greatest contributions were in the
field of mechanics. He held the correct view of motion that separate
motions can be added together (ballistics), and that bodies
accelerate uniformly. He stated that an object in motion tends to
remain in motion (inertia). He was the first to point the telescope
towards the heavens, and soon after, he wrote the Starry Messenger
to describe his findings. He discovered that the heavens are not
'perfect' - he saw the phases of Venus, craters on the moon,
sunspots, and Saturn with bulges (rings). He discovered the four
largest moons of Jupiter (now denoted as the 'Galilean satellites,
in tribute to him). He published The Dialogue Concerning the Two
Chief World Systems (1632), where he supported the Copernican
heliocentric view, and for that, he was house-imprisoned until his
death.
http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Galileo.html


I suggested to google (suggestions at google.com) that they make a
holiday logo for Galileo's birthday (*), but you know, it is so close
to Valentine's Day and all, it seems unlikely. I considered telling
them about Bruno's anniversary too, but commemorating a guy who was
nailed to a stake through his tongue, then stripped and burned is
not a pleasant thought. In any case, if you are passing through Roma's
Campo di Fiori next Tuesday, you might want to leave a flower in
memory of the man.



(*)
Dear Google,

On February 15, 1564, Galileo Galilei was born in Pisa, Italy.

May I suggest Galileo's birthday as a holiday logo for Google?

Sincerely,
Amara

-- 

***********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD             email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics        vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers            URL:   http://www.amara.com/
***********************************************************************
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage."
       --Anais Nin


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Feb 12 10:36:00 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:36:00 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Software exposure: was Re: Eugen Leitl,
	you got Klez
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212142054.024ed820@mail.chariot.net.au>
References: <4028A3A7.4010303@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<20040210102544.GT15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210211444.0248dde8@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<20040210110746.GW15132@leitl.org>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040210214954.0248d1c0@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112122240.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040212131005.02444028@mail.chariot.net.au>
	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112200560.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
	<6.0.3.0.0.20040212142054.024ed820@mail.chariot.net.au>
Message-ID: <20040212103600.GZ28489@leitl.org>

On Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 02:22:15PM +0930, emlyn on nagero wrote:

> True enough. OTOH, can you convince me that 90+% of machines which were 
> single user machines wouldn't have been always used with administrator 
> permissions, circumventing all security?

Are you saying everyone running *nix is cruising as root? I've seen very,
very few people posting as root, and usually everybody would come down their
asses. Single buffer overrun, instant root. No need for privilege elevation,
which makes writing exploits more difficult.

Of course, you can do almost everything as non-admin in *nix. You can't do much as
non-Administrator on Windows. It's because the "developers" are used to
assume everyone's allowed God mode. Prompting user for sysadmin
access, or suid root/sudo are completely alien concepts to those people.

Each time I've seen Windows programmers porting stuff to *nix they behaved
like dorks. Unreasonable assumptions, always doing the same mistakes. It
doesn't mean all of them that way, but I'm describing a common archetype.

The *nix->Windows is quite easy -- though most developers complain about a
crippled environment. They can get used to it, but it is not fun.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 12 13:16:46 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:16:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] 3D printers, eink scanner wands, protein producers
In-Reply-To: <000601c3f1c4$54098560$abee17cb@renegade>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402120456440.30566-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:

> Would it be possible to combine 3-D printers with a materials assembler (and
> also possibly printed circuits, which are being worked on by one of the eink
> scientist founders, and flat batteries (some are 'paper' batteries))?

There is no problem with this with perhaps 2 exceptions (a) current 3-D
printing methods do not have atomic precision -- the only way I see to
solve this problem with current technology would be to combine 3-D printing
with self-assembly (something that might be well underway); and (b) the
current 3-D printing methods are *slow* -- that isn't a show stopper --
one could argue that plasma etching methods for integrated circuits are slow
(I really do not know since I don't know the details of semiconductor technology
that well -- but I suspect these methods are in the general context "slow").
The slowness involves a combination of basic physics issues as well as parallelism
issues.

> Different sized heads (choice of), different materials being exuded,
> controlled printing environment (pressure, temperature)...

This is discussed to some extent in several chapters of Nanosystems involving
various atomic assembly (esp. mechanosynthesis) methods.  It certainly seems
reasonable to me that it might be upscaled into the 10-50 nanometer range
(if we consider "real" nanotech has to be construction on a much less than
10 nm range...).

(For uninformed readers -- the "standard" definition of nanotech right now
is for technology on the 1 to 100 nanometer range (this is from the National
Science Foundation).  Standard semiconductor technology will over the next
couple of years break the sub 100 nm range.  Chemists are still stuck largely
working in the much less than 10 nm range.  Most biology happens on perhaps
the 1 to 30 nm range (taking into account everything from neurotransmitters
to ribosomes).

Eugen a couple of months ago posted a very educational reference on these size
scales if people want to look it up.

It would be my observation (considering that I'm one of the few people who
have looked at objects that might be light years in size constructed from
nanoscale materials) (nod of hat to Anders, Robin, Spike and others who have
contributed to this thought pathway) -- that in general people are not
comfortable with the necessary scaling that the universe presents to us.

R.



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 12 13:29:05 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:29:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <001201c3f1c5$cca01380$abee17cb@renegade>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402120522110.30566-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:

> The sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in 500 million years, well
> prior to it turning into a red giant.

>From an extropic perspective is unreasonable to assume this scenario.
(I have not bothered taking on all of the astronomers who promote this
perspective however -- since it is perhaps hundreds to thousands of
individuals and I simply do not view it as worth my time).

For this statement to make sense you either have to argue that humanity
will be extinct or will have exited the solar system long before that
"natural" condition might take place *or* argue that humanity if it
exists as long as 500 million years will not engineer either the Earth
or other habitats or the sun so this simply will not happen.  One then
has real probabilities problems.

You cannot ignore the presence of intelligence as a component in the
evolution of the universe.

R.




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 12 13:54:12 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 05:54:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <001201c3f1c5$cca01380$abee17cb@renegade>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402120529130.30566-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:

> Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs and cats, not
> even in sheepdogs.

Ca-ca.  Go to any dog show and watch the performance of the animals --
I doubt you would be able to claim we are not selecting for intelligence.

> Otherwise some very smart cats and dogs would have come into existence some
> time ago.

Given the above I would argue that "intelligent" cats and dogs do exist.
Now how smart is obviously on a somewhat sliding scale and we could get
into long discussions with respect to whether intelligence is a dominant
or recessive trait -- given that it will likely turn out to be based on
dozens of genes.  (For example I think I could clearly make the case where
intelligence diminishes ones survival capability and thus ones survival in
the gene pool.)  So intelligence in some cases is not a selected for trait.
In contrast a specific behavior (e.g. with sheep dogs) might be a very
selected for trait.

> Intelligence selection for dogs would also relate to increasing their
> vocabulary and social signalling.

Well dogs obviously have both of these skills (at least in the wild, e.g.
wolves) and they are obviously expressed.  You need to make a case that
an improvement of their in-the-wild capabilities would enhance their survival.
I would present a case that the capabilities that they have in the wild
are perfectly adapted to their environment.

Nature, in general, does *not* overengineer organisms.

> Active selection would have produced results even in one or two
> centuries. (Say 500 cat generations = 250 years?)

You have to make the case that additional vocabulary or social signalling would
increase their probability of survival.  I don't see that.  I'm not saying
that it doesn't make sense -- but that the marginal benefits may not
justify the marginal costs.  I believe we have already had cases in transgenic
mice where improving the animals memory may significantly reduce what we might
refer to as "sanity".  So intelligence (as adapted to its environment) may
be a relatively fragile concept.  [Anyone more familiar with the literature
should feel free to correct this.]

I'll defer further comments -- this is a complex subject worthy
of long term discussion.

Robert




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 14:25:31 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:25:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <402B382E.6080003@popido.com>
Message-ID: <20040212142531.29328.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Erik Starck <es at popido.com> wrote:
> John K Clark wrote:
> 
> >"Ed Wood" just came out on DVD; it's a great movie about the worst
> director
> >of all time.
> >  
> >
> 
> Well, pre-Jar Jar Binks at least.

I always liked Jar Jar. I particularly didn't give a snot about all of
the alleged 'racial insensitivity' in his characterization, even though
the character was developed solely by the actor who played him, who
was, in fact, black. Thats like attacking Eddie Murphy for his "Hot
Tub" portrayal of James Brown.

I thought Chuck Barris would have the title, but he's merely the worst
producer, and game show host, of all time... Confessions of a Dangerous
Mind was a good movie, though...

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Feb 12 14:26:10 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:26:10 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <004901c3f114$3df45ad0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402112059290.9373@imladris.surriel.com>
	<004901c3f114$3df45ad0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040212142610.GI28489@leitl.org>

On Wed, Feb 11, 2004 at 06:59:33PM -0800, Spike wrote:

> Here's a thought experiment: imagine suddenly removing
> all humans from earth but leaving it otherwise unharmed.
> Would not that open a huge ecological niche into which
> would rush some other beast?  Those who understand the
> mechanisms of evolution, would that cause evolutionary
> pressure for chimps, gorillas or bonobos to evolve sentience?  

It is not obvious humanity filled a niche. It took us quite a time, too.
It is not obvious any other species would make it, given half a gigayear
stage, and a few extinction events strewn in-between.

We might very well be a giant fluke. Fermi's paradoxon probably isn't.

> Or would it actually remove ecological pressure, since humans
> are actively selecting for intelligence in dogs, cats,
> and perhaps to some extent primates?

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 14:34:59 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:34:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
In-Reply-To: <200402122008.44996@3-e.net>
Message-ID: <20040212143459.21545.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Daniel Matthews <dan at 3-e.net> wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:51:54 -0500
> > From: Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org>
> >
> > The American Revolution was one too.
> >
> 
> I'm sure all those deaths could have been avoided, if more
> enlightened humans were guiding society at the time.

Coulda Shoulda Woulda... the fact is that they weren't. Revolution was
the necessary destruction to deal with the fact. In fact, enlightened
minds WERE trying to guide society at the time. British PM William Pitt
was himself a Whig and in a speech before the Parliament warned that
revolt was the natural consequence of the actions demanded by
Parliament, particularly taxing the people of the colonies for a war
they had no voice in.
The people of Britain wouldn't hear of it. THEY certainly didn't want
to pay for Crazy George's last war, and George was an obstinate cuss
who only listened to the warmongering advisers who kissed his ass.
Revolution was a natural consequence of the people of the colonies
having no voice in parliament.

Sometimes creative destruction is needed to fix the mistakes of the
past when too many of the people don't want to deal with the issues at
hand for too long, and think they can continue to have their cake and
eat it.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 14:50:29 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:50:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402120529130.30566-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040212145029.41486.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:
> 
> > Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs and
> cats, not
> > even in sheepdogs.
> 
> Ca-ca.  Go to any dog show and watch the performance of the animals
> --
> I doubt you would be able to claim we are not selecting for
> intelligence.

Yes. There is a show on Animal Planet called, I think, Dog Star or
something like that. Its a dog talent show. One dog, Heelboot, put on a
show of langauge comprehension that is quite amazing.

> 
> > Otherwise some very smart cats and dogs would have come into
> existence some
> > time ago.
> 
> Given the above I would argue that "intelligent" cats and dogs do
> exist.

I would say the only real restraint on their further development of
intelligence is the lack of speech capability, which is a genetic thing
and not a mind thing.

My german shorthair is highly intelligent, recognises whole sentences
as well as context. She communicates as she can with her own sign
language. The only reason she isn't a trick dog is that she is highly
willfull and self aware. She'll only do a trick if she wants to. She
even lies. If you offer a biscuit and tell her to roll over, if she
doesn't like the surface, she'll just spin around in a circle and act
like she did the work. She thinks she's a person, and will sit on
furniture like a person, leaning back on the backrest.

Dogs likely won't naturally evolve language only because without hands,
they have no need of a more complex language to deal with technology.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 12 14:53:20 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:53:20 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] A real (therapeutic) cloning advance 
Message-ID: <184670-220042412145320392@M2W064.mail2web.com>

From: Brett Paatsch 

----
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040212/D80LCIA00.html

I heard an intereview with one of the researchers this morning on NPR. 
Thanks for posting this. http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/index.html

"South Korean scientists report they have successfully cloned a human
embryo and extracted embryonic stem cells -- an important step toward
therapeutic cloning. The achievement, reported in the journal Science, is
certain to rekindle the debate over the ethics of cloning. Hear NPR's Joe
Palca, NPR's Bob Edwards and Dr. Jeffrey Kahn, director of bioethics at the
University of Minnesota. Feb. 12, 2004"

I'll be called Dr. Jeffrey Kahn today to request an interview for the
Summit.

Natasha
_______________________________
Join the Vital Progress Summit online 02/15/04 for the 2-week summit.
http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm
http://www.extropy.org/summitabout.htm



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From natashavita at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 12 15:19:04 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:19:04 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Invitation- WSEAS conferences (Neural - Fuzzy -
	Evolutionary)
Message-ID: <57050-22004241215194947@M2W093.mail2web.com>


This is for anyone interested in attending this conference in Greece and
Italy, or sending an abstract or paper.  www.wseas.org

Natasha

______________________

Dear Colleague,

I had sent to you an email last weak about the
WSEAS conferences (Neural - Fuzzy - Evolutionary ...) 
WSEAS conferences in Udine (near to Venice/Venezia), Italy
If you want to contact me, reply please, to this email writing
the word "WSEAS" in the Subject of your message. 

Now, I would like to remind you that except this conference
where all the papers will be published in the Proceedings (CD-ROM)
as well as in the WSEAS Press Luxurious Post-Conference Books*
(that participate in the various Citations Indeces), 
this year, the great WSEAS CSCC multiconference (500 participants) that
will be held in Vouliagmeni (suburb of Athens), just before the 2004
Olympic Games
will also publish all the accepted papers
in the Proceedings (CD-ROM) as well as in the WSEAS Press Luxurious
Post-Conference
Books*
(series: Electrical Engineering and Computer Science).

* The previous Books of WSEAS in 2003 in this series, participate now in
ISI Index
(ISINET), INSPE (IEE)
ELSEVIER Engineering Information, CSA, AMS. Mathematical Reviews 
Engineering Index, Directory of Published Proceedings, Zentralblatt MATH 
ELP, NLG Indeces. 

 Special discount in the hotel (100 EUR/room)!

For Udine  Deadline: FEBRUARY 29, 2004
Location: Udine (near to Venice- Venezia), Italy the deadline is February
29, while
for Vouliagmeni (near to Athens), Greece, the deadline is April 15.

We invite you for an invited paper in this important multiconference

more details: www.wseas.org, contact us!

 
 Thanks
 
 Prof. Nikos E. Mastorakis
 Head of the Department of Electr.Eng. and Comp.Science
 Milit.Inst.Univ. Educ. 
 Hellenic Naval AcademyThanks

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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 12 15:32:11 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:32:11 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE60884PaSIic0000a2bd@hotmail.com>



> Thinking about animals adapting in the wake of humans got me wondering
> about animals in the wake of transhumans.
>
> As you envision the world of tomorrow -- nanotech, genemod, space-faring,
> uploading, AI/IA -- what do you want or anticipate for animalia?
>
> Some options:
>
> (a)  Migrate people and industry off-world, and turn the planet into a
> nature preserve

I don;t think this would ever happen. For a time, the Earth will still be
the prime source of resources. I can only see this happening if we get to a
point where those resources are no longer necessary. There would be no
industry at this point. I think that industry as we think of it, will be
confined to Earth until industry itself is not necessary.

> (b)  Restore recently- or long-extinct species

Probably

> (c)  Create new or variant species for art, entertainment, utility

We are already doing this, so I see no reason why it wouldn;t continue

> (d)  Take species with us to space

Certainly. Especially cats since they have their fondness for being upright
all the time....wouldn;t that be fun?

>(e) Modify species to suit non-terrestrial planetary environments

I'm sure we'll do this too.

> (f)  Increase species sentience (a la Clifford Simak or Cordwainer Smith)

Someone out there will try it. After all, species are simply our way of
classifying living things that are very similar. When it comes down to it,
they are matter arranged in a particular way. If we have the ability to
change this, I am sure we will. Some humans may even choose to be dogs with
human minds. Of course, this is post-singularity. Before then, it will
probably take a rogue scientist to do such a thing since the common
concensus is that you would never want to do something so horrible as give
an animal consciousness. (I have no idea why)
> (g) Increase sentience of living animals
Same answer as above

> (h)  Upload, to transhumanely clear the way for disassembling the planet
I doubt animals would be uploaded. I also think that no matter how efficient
it may be, enough people would not want to destroy the womb of humanity or
the life on it. Instead, it would probably be the very last planet to be
consumed. At that point, it may be possible to either relocate ourselves or
the life on the planet. Or we could move the planet itself or bring in raw
materials from nearby solar systems. I am sure there would be many
possibilities. I have seen this mentioned several times on the list, but I
think that when it comes down to it, if we had the ability to disassemble
the planet, we would have the ability to excercise many other options and
would choose one of those. This may be for sentimental purposes, for a place
to "fall back on", for people who refuse to upload "of which there certainly
will be many", or even just to sit back and watch the story of life on
planet Earth continue to unfold.

> (i)  Move to an L-5 style habitat

Um....why?

> (j)  Disassemble the planet without removing or uploading the animals

See above.
> (k)  Leave animalia to their own devices
>


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 12 15:43:46 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:43:46 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) The Coming Climate
	Collapse]
References: <000601c3ee6b$ff45ed30$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE46alwhYInbp000548a8@hotmail.com>

All this talk has got me feeling all funny inside....like when we used to
climb the rope in gym class..:-)

What we are talking about here are small to medium cost changes to the
biosphere that could make some dramatic changes..for good or ill.

Such things as flooding the East African Rift Valley would put lots of water
where it needs to be, but that water wouldn't be potable. The potential for
increased rainfall elsewhere is great though.

Piping fresh water into Northern Africa from the Nile to create an inland
sea would reduce the water downstream, and much of it would evaporate. But
that evaporated water would come back down somewhere as well.

These seemingly crazy ideas have me thinking. What other mad ideas can we
dream up that may actually help improve the lives of humans worldwide? What
would their short and long term effects be? What drawbacks may be lingering
that could do more harm than good?

I can;t even sleep at night right now with these crazy ideas flowing!

Kevin Freels



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 11:50 AM
Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) The Coming Climate Collapse


>
> > Technotranscendence:
>
> >
> > Well, the plan could actually be beneficial.  It would create
> > an inland  sea in Eastern Africa in a region that is semi-arid to
> arid.
>
>
> Well hell yes!  I don't see the down side at all.
> Couldn't we create an inland sea in the western
> Sahara by piping fresh water over from the Nile?
> Then the hot dry air would blow across it and
> perhaps increase rainfall in the eastern side
> of that vast desert.
>
>
> >
> > I think all of this would have an uplifting effect on the local
> > economies.  So, I don't think the plan is evil.
>
> Of course!  Water is valuable as all get out in north
> Africa.  I honestly don't see why we don't get with the
> program and save some of it, or use it for something.
> We could pipe it north from the wetter equatorial
> regions, everyone would benefit.
>
>
> > ...I'd fear that some people wouldn't want such
> > macroengineering projects to take place no matter what -- even if the
> > locals wanted it... Dan
>
>
> Why?  Im not disagreeing, but I do want to understand
> the reasoning of the people who might oppose such an action.
> Would the opposers be entirely on the part of those
> who wish the people of north Africa to starve?  Or are
> there other interests I am overlooking?  Looks like a
> tropical north Africa would help everyone in some way.
> To me, fixing Africa is an even more worthwhile project
> than going to Mars.  And this is *me* talking.
>
> spike
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 12 16:09:52 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 10:09:52 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
References: <20040212145029.41486.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE57DptxZG62Y0001aea3@hotmail.com>

Reacting to symbols does not necessarily mean that a dog understands
language. Chimps, by far the most advanced in language and possible
self-awareness still have tremendous difficulty with such simple sentences
such as "Put the cup on the plate" and "Put the plate on the cup". Language
in itself implies rules of grammar which so far have been difficult to teach
to animals.

Intelligence and interpreting symbols do not mean that an animal is capable
of language. Pavlov showed that by ringing a bell, you can make a dog
salivate. This "symbol" could just as easily be a poster that says "food"
instead of a bell that rings. This does not mean the dog can read. They
certainly can;t pass that knowledge down to their offspring
phylogenetically.

Likewise, humans with damage to The speech and comprehension areas of the
brain can lose all ability to use language. If language is lost, so are all
of our thoughts. All we have left is pictures which these people can still
recognize and react to. Have these people lost their consciousness? Is
consciousness the same as language?

We have a lot to learn in this area. Heck, we have a lot to learn in all
areas! It's all so fascinating! I hope I make it to the singularity just so
I can spend my time learning more!

Here's an interesting website on the topic of language in animals:

http://www.massey.ac.nz/~alock/hbook/ristau.htm




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Animals


>
> --- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:
> >
> > > Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs and
> > cats, not
> > > even in sheepdogs.
> >
> > Ca-ca.  Go to any dog show and watch the performance of the animals
> > --
> > I doubt you would be able to claim we are not selecting for
> > intelligence.
>
> Yes. There is a show on Animal Planet called, I think, Dog Star or
> something like that. Its a dog talent show. One dog, Heelboot, put on a
> show of langauge comprehension that is quite amazing.
>
> >
> > > Otherwise some very smart cats and dogs would have come into
> > existence some
> > > time ago.
> >
> > Given the above I would argue that "intelligent" cats and dogs do
> > exist.
>
> I would say the only real restraint on their further development of
> intelligence is the lack of speech capability, which is a genetic thing
> and not a mind thing.
>
> My german shorthair is highly intelligent, recognises whole sentences
> as well as context. She communicates as she can with her own sign
> language. The only reason she isn't a trick dog is that she is highly
> willfull and self aware. She'll only do a trick if she wants to. She
> even lies. If you offer a biscuit and tell her to roll over, if she
> doesn't like the surface, she'll just spin around in a circle and act
> like she did the work. She thinks she's a person, and will sit on
> furniture like a person, leaning back on the backrest.
>
> Dogs likely won't naturally evolve language only because without hands,
> they have no need of a more complex language to deal with technology.
>
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Thu Feb 12 16:43:06 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:43:06 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE60884PaSIic0000a2bd@hotmail.com>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040212112232.0b1d33e8@mail.comcast.net>

Kevin Freels wrote:

> > (d)  Take species with us to space
>
>Certainly. Especially cats since they have their fondness for being upright
>all the time....wouldn;t that be fun?

I recall a suggestion some years ago for power generation through strapping 
buttered bread to a cat's back.

> > (i)  Move to an L-5 style habitat
>
>Um....why?

The rationale for this scenario is that a constructed habitat can provide 
much more living area out of the same quantity of raw material. So if (1) 
we wish to take apart the Earth and (2) consider it unethical to upload 
beings without their informed consent, relocating them to a more efficient 
home may be the best solution. (I'm not arguing either premise, but others 
in this thread have.)


-- David Lubkin.






From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 17:29:23 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 09:29:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE57DptxZG62Y0001aea3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040212172923.66699.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Intelligence and interpreting symbols do not mean that an animal is
> capable
> of language. Pavlov showed that by ringing a bell, you can make a dog
> salivate. This "symbol" could just as easily be a poster that says
> "food"
> instead of a bell that rings. This does not mean the dog can read.
> They certainly can;t pass that knowledge down to their offspring
> phylogenetically.

Pavlovian training requires repetition and reward, and dogs with
pavlovian training do not respond outside the strict cues. This is not
the behavior of this dog. She understands communications which are new
and situational. She even understands context, for example, no matter
what I ask her to do, when she chooses to ignore the command, she will
respond to "what did I just say?" with the proper response to the
previous command.

She is also creative. If you hold up a dog biscuit, saying nothing, she
will go through variating sequences of sit, down, roll over, turn
around, back up, dance (on two feet), if she decides she wants that
biscuit.

She will retrieve specific items (but only if she feels like it) which
you name. She also will retreive a new item, correctly guessing that
the new name I ask her to retrieve is the identifier of the new object,
even though I have not associated the name with the object previously.

She also does tool use. She can open doors by turning door handles with
her paws. She uses rope to play tug of war, intentionally, with another
dog, not as a contest of posession.

She certainly is not human level intelligent. That isn't what I am
saying. I am saying that she is at a level that is primed for human or
advanced primate level intelligence if she, or her offspring, are given
genes for a language center.

> 
> Likewise, humans with damage to The speech and comprehension areas of
> the brain can lose all ability to use language. If language is lost,
> so are all of our thoughts. All we have left is pictures which these
> people can still
> recognize and react to. Have these people lost their consciousness?
> Is consciousness the same as language?

Do deafmutes lose their ability with sign language or braille?

> 
> We have a lot to learn in this area. Heck, we have a lot to learn in
> all
> areas! It's all so fascinating! I hope I make it to the singularity
> just so
> I can spend my time learning more!
> 
> Here's an interesting website on the topic of language in animals:
> 
> http://www.massey.ac.nz/~alock/hbook/ristau.htm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Animals
> 
> 
> >
> > --- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:
> > >
> > > > Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs
> and
> > > cats, not
> > > > even in sheepdogs.
> > >
> > > Ca-ca.  Go to any dog show and watch the performance of the
> animals
> > > --
> > > I doubt you would be able to claim we are not selecting for
> > > intelligence.
> >
> > Yes. There is a show on Animal Planet called, I think, Dog Star or
> > something like that. Its a dog talent show. One dog, Heelboot, put
> on a
> > show of langauge comprehension that is quite amazing.
> >
> > >
> > > > Otherwise some very smart cats and dogs would have come into
> > > existence some
> > > > time ago.
> > >
> > > Given the above I would argue that "intelligent" cats and dogs do
> > > exist.
> >
> > I would say the only real restraint on their further development of
> > intelligence is the lack of speech capability, which is a genetic
> thing
> > and not a mind thing.
> >
> > My german shorthair is highly intelligent, recognises whole
> sentences
> > as well as context. She communicates as she can with her own sign
> > language. The only reason she isn't a trick dog is that she is
> highly
> > willfull and self aware. She'll only do a trick if she wants to.
> She
> > even lies. If you offer a biscuit and tell her to roll over, if she
> > doesn't like the surface, she'll just spin around in a circle and
> act
> > like she did the work. She thinks she's a person, and will sit on
> > furniture like a person, leaning back on the backrest.
> >
> > Dogs likely won't naturally evolve language only because without
> hands,
> > they have no need of a more complex language to deal with
> technology.
> >
> > =====
> > Mike Lorrey
> > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
> >                                        - Gen. John Stark
> > "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
> >                                        - Mike Lorrey
> > Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> > Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> > http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 12 19:52:50 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:52:50 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] SCI: A New Form of Matter
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE54iY9ZNMjiG0004c0b4@hotmail.com>

Nasa supported researchers have discovered a new weird from of matter. 

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2004/12feb_fermi.htm?list1069171
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From nanowave at shaw.ca  Thu Feb 12 19:55:04 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:55:04 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
References: <20040212172923.66699.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000601c3f1a2$1f771640$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Declare War on Wahhabism
Ray Pierce

The salient aspect of a successful war strategy is correct threat
analysis. A leader who correctly interprets the threat enables the
institutions of society to form a zeitgeist, which allows the common
man to understand the rationale and goals of the war. This is
especially important in a democracy, where broad support is essential
for a war of extended duration.

Our current war on terror lacks this clarity. The term "terrorist"
means different things to different people, as does therefore the term
"states that sponsor terror." Pedestrian thinkers concentrate mainly
on bin Laden, who is a product or symptom of the threat in the big
picture. Others from the elite media and academia focus on the lack of
an Islamic Reformation or else blame America, while some on the right
condemn Islam itself.

In philosophy, there is the concept of corresponding truths, which
simply stated is the idea that people see what they expect or want to
see, as opposed to what is actual or real. An example of this is our
government's view of Wahhabite Saudi Arabia within the war on terror
parameter.

It was not by accident that 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 murders were Wahhabi
from Saudi Arabia. Or that the Taliban was the ideal form of Wahhabite
government. Or that bin Laden himself is a Wahhabite Saudi.

Wahhabism, masquerading as a religion, has a network of Mosques and
schools worldwide which are poisoning the young and sowing hatred. Our
own PC military is seeking additional Wahhabite clergy. Wahhabite
clergy teach in our prisons.

A religion is an ideology coupled with a metaphysical belief, which
forms a theology. The world's five major religions all have aspects of
tolerance. Can an ideology that is xenophobic to all that are
different be considered a religion?

Can Wahhabism, which seeks either the conversion or death of all other
Muslim sects, plus all Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists,
secularists and pagans, be considered acceptable in our modern and
pluralistic world?

If the answer is no, the Western Achilles' heel of religious tolerance
is not exposed. But if Wahhabism is considered a religion, we will be
defeated in this war, as we will be powerless to stop its spread.

The reason we are losing our war is that our government lacks veracity
in its actions. When Prince Bandar is allowed to visit the president's
ranch, when the State Department continues to issue express visas, an
impression of duplicity is created. This is fortified when we are told
that Saudi Arabia is a staunch ally.

How can a country which does not allow Christian worship or even
Christian burial on its scared soil be our ally? A greater incongruity
occurs when we learn about Saudi funding of terrorism.

Some may point to oil as the main ingredient in our alliance with
Saudi Arabia. But our new ally Russia has vast deposits of petroleum
and natural gas. During World War II, Germany made synthetic petroleum
from coal, which we have in great abundance. And, with our technology,
we should start to transfer to a hydrogen economy if we intend to
remain a world power throughout the 21st century.

The correct and honest course is to declare war on all Wahhabite
states and peoples. By doing this, our goal would be concentric to the
facts as they exist in reality.

By declaring war on the Wahhabi, a more refined debate could occur
which would allow Wahhabism to be viewed as a cult of hate. This would
allow for mainstream adherents of Islam to explain the differences
between tolerant Islam and Wahhabism. This discussion may lead to an
Islamic Reformation of sorts, which could embrace modernity and
pluralism, as it once did before Wahhabism became widespread.

The singular advantage to declaring war on the Wahhabi is that they
hate all that are not Wahhabite. From this, many natural alliances
will occur. Iran, a Shiite county, had five ambassadors killed by the
Taliban, for example. Iran was the chief sponsor of the Northern
Alliance in Afghanistan.

The focus of our foreign policy must change, where a reasoned threat
analysis and prioritization takes place. Iraq is a secular Stalinist
state. The Wahhabi also threaten it. It is purported that bin Laden
said that Saddam is a "bad Muslim." Rather than have a policy which
aligns these enemies of the Wahhabi such as Iraq and Iran against us,
our policy should be to align them against their Wahhabite enemy.

A precedent for this may be found in our policy during World War II.
FDR did not declare war on Stalin while we were fighting Hitler, but
rather used Stalin to defeat Hitler. By going to war with Iraq, we
strengthen Wahhabite Saudi Arabia.

Added to this is the fact that Iraq has no ethos, and therefore is not
a nation-state. With Kurds in the north, Shiites in the south, Sunni
and secularists in the center, Iraq is analogous to Yugoslavia in that
violence will result after Saddam is gone. In actuality, the only way
to hold such a disparate place together is through a strongman like a
Tito or Saddam. And if Iraq splinters, Turkey will be threatened.

The worldwide spread from Saudi Arabia of Wahhabism must be stopped.
Their "religious" schools must be closed. Their worldwide political
intrigue, which has infested many states to include Pakistan and
Indonesia, must be halted. Their followers must be taught to feel
secure in Islam, while accepting modernity and pluralism. We need to
promote a mainstream brand of Islam.

Our government needs to become honest about this war, which is nothing
less than a threat to our civilization. We need to seek allies where
they exist. By declaring war on Wahhabism, all of the world's peoples
and religions currently under threat will benefit, and our war will
become an honest fight against evil.

________
Russell Evermore



From extropy at audry2.com  Thu Feb 12 21:26:07 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 05:26:07 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
In-Reply-To: <000601c3f1a2$1f771640$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net> (message from
	Russell Evermore on Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:55:04 -0800)
References: <20040212172923.66699.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
	<000601c3f1a2$1f771640$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <200402122126.i1CLQ7402973@igor.synonet.com>


Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> quotes Ray Pierce:

> A religion is an ideology coupled with a metaphysical belief,

Actually only the metaphysical belief is strictly necessary for
something to be a religion.

> The world's five major religions all have aspects of tolerance.

The Muslims given the choice to convert or die during the crusades
might have something to say about that, but I'll let it pass.

> Can an ideology that is xenophobic to all that are different be
> considered a religion?

Sure, if God says so.

> Can Wahhabism, which seeks either the conversion or death of all other
> Muslim sects, plus all Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists,
> secularists and pagans, be considered acceptable in our modern and
> pluralistic world?

Wahhabism is acceptable. We may not agree with it, but there is no
belief which is not acceptable in a pluralistic world.

The *actions* of Wahhabites may or may not acceptable. If they stand
on a mountain and tell us we should convert or commit suicide then
they are doomed to fail but perfectly acceptable. If they start
blowing up buildings that is unacceptable.

> How can a country which does not allow Christian worship or even
> Christian burial on its scared soil be our ally? A greater incongruity
> occurs when we learn about Saudi funding of terrorism.

And here is the author's not too hidden agenda. America is a
"Christian country". Anyone who does not allow Christian worship is
the enemy...

> The correct and honest course is to declare war on all Wahhabite
> states and peoples.

...and should be blown up. OK, not hidden at all.

Major


From dan at 3-e.net  Thu Feb 12 20:27:43 2004
From: dan at 3-e.net (Daniel Matthews)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 07:27:43 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 5, Issue 12
In-Reply-To: <200402121958.i1CJwmc23619@tick.javien.com>
References: <200402121958.i1CJwmc23619@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <200402130727.43242@3-e.net>

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 06:58 am, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:

> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:34:59 -0800 (PST)
> From: Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
<snip>
> --- Daniel Matthews <dan at 3-e.net> wrote:
> > > Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:51:54 -0500
> > > From: Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org>
> > >
> > > The American Revolution was one too.
> >
> > I'm sure all those deaths could have been avoided, if more
> > enlightened humans were guiding society at the time.
>
> Coulda Shoulda Woulda... the fact is that they weren't. Revolution was
> the necessary destruction to deal with the fact. In fact, enlightened
> minds WERE trying to guide society at the time. British PM William Pitt
> was himself a Whig and in a speech before the Parliament warned that
> revolt was the natural consequence of the actions demanded by
> Parliament, particularly taxing the people of the colonies for a war
> they had no voice in.
<snip>
> Revolution was a natural consequence of the people of the colonies
> having no voice in parliament.

"were trying to...." does not equal "were guiding" if the parties involved 
*were* wiser the entire thing would have been settled by negotiation rather 
than force. Sun Tsu, in the Art of War, pointed out that the greatest of 
commanders avoids conflict if possible.

> Sometimes creative destruction is needed to fix the mistakes of the
> past when too many of the people don't want to deal with the issues at
> hand for too long, and think they can continue to have their cake and
> eat it.
>
<snip>

I think the term creative destruction is oxymoronic.
Thumping an entire nation when you have an argument with a few people is not 
creative, regardless of question of it's necessity.





From jef at jefallbright.net  Thu Feb 12 20:54:55 2004
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 12:54:55 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Fw: Live Chat With Robert Wright
Message-ID: <032701c3f1aa$79250730$2c02650a@int.veeco.com>

This may be very interesting.  I've found Robert Wright's books to be very
influential on my thinking and highly recommended.

- Jef

ISCID wrote:
> Live Chat With Robert Wright
> Thursday February 12th
> 9pm Eastern
> http://www.iscid.org/robert-wright.php
>
> Robert Wright, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania,
> is the author of _Nonzero: The Logic of Human Destiny_ and _The Moral
> Animal: Evolutionary Psychology and Everyday Life_, both published by
> Vintage Books. The _Moral Animal_ was named by the New York Times
> Book Review as one of the 12 best books of 1994 and has been
> published in 12 languages. _Nonzero_ was named a New York Times Book
> Review Notable Book for 2000 and has been published in nine
> languages. Wright's first book, _Three Scientists and Their Gods:
> Looking for Meaning in an Age of Information_, was published in 1988
> and was nominated for a National Book Critics Circle Award. Wright is
> a contributing editor at The New Republic, Time magazine, and Slate.
> He has also written for the Atlantic Monthly, the New Yorker, and the
> New York Times Magazine. He previously worked at The Sciences
> magazine, where his column "The Information Age" won the National
> Magazine Award for Essay and Criticism.
>
> In his book _Nonzero_ Wright sets out to "define the arrow of the
> history of life, from the primordial ooze to the World Wide Web."
> Twenty two chapters later, after a sweeping and vivid narrative of
> the human past, he has succeeded- -and has mounted a powerful
> challenge to the conventional view that evolution and human history
> are aimless.
>
> Ingeniously employing game theory-the logic of "zero-sum" and
> "non-zero-sum" games-Wright isolates the impetus behind life's basic
> direction: the impetus that, via biological evolution, created
> complex, intelligent animals; and then, via cultural evolution,
> pushed the human species toward deeper and vaster social complexity.
> In this view, the coming of today's interdependent global society was
> "in the cards"-not quite inevitable, perhaps, but, as Wright puts it,
> "so probable as to inspire wonder." So probable, indeed, as to invite
> speculation about higher purpose-especially in light of "the phase of
> history that seems to lie immediately ahead: a social, political, and
> even moral culmination of sorts."
>
> In a work of vast erudition and pungent wit, Wright takes on some of
> the past century's most prominent thinkers, including Isaiah Berlin,
> Karl Popper, Stephen Jay Gould, and Richard Dawkins. He finds
> evidence for his position in unexpected corners, from native American
> hunter-gatherer societies and Polynesian chiefdoms to Medieval
> Islamic commerce and precocious Chinese technology; from conflicts of
> interest among a cell's genes to discord at the World Trade
> Organization.
>
> Wright argues that a coolly scientific appraisal of humanity's
> three-billion- year past can give new spiritual meaning to the
> present and even offer political guidance for the future.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ISCID Newsletter
> International Society for Complexity, Information and Design
> http://www.iscid.org



From nanowave at shaw.ca  Thu Feb 12 21:06:45 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:06:45 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
References: <20040212172923.66699.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
	<000601c3f1a2$1f771640$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
	<200402122126.i1CLQ7402973@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c3f1ac$1f8e6340$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Major writes:

> Actually only the metaphysical belief is strictly necessary for
> something to be a religion.

Interesting, so a child who believes a magical fat man with a white
beard drops down a chimney every Dec.24 is following a religion by
this definition. Why use words at all if they are going to be watered
down to absurdity.

> > The world's five major religions all have aspects of tolerance.
>
> The Muslims given the choice to convert or die during the crusades
> might have something to say about that, but I'll let it pass.

Well since you didn't let it pass at all, I will again point out the
value of at least aiming for some sort of precision in language. You
do see the word "have" in the statement you objected to? Yet you take
that to read "have always had." It's perfectly clear to me that
religions are EVOLUTIONARY systems (by choice or by necessity) and
that what once "was" does not foever make a "what is." Except perhaps
to the Wahhabi outlook, and that's precisely the point.
>
> > Can an ideology that is xenophobic to all that are different be
> > considered a religion?
>
> Sure, if God says so.

Well since the author is mainly addressing non-wahhabis "God" probably
doesn't say so.

> > Can Wahhabism, which seeks either the conversion or death of all
other
> > Muslim sects, plus all Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists,
> > secularists and pagans, be considered acceptable in our modern and
> > pluralistic world?
>
> Wahhabism is acceptable. We may not agree with it, but there is no
> belief which is not acceptable in a pluralistic world.
>
> The *actions* of Wahhabites may or may not acceptable. If they stand
> on a mountain and tell us we should convert or commit suicide then
> they are doomed to fail but perfectly acceptable. If they start
> blowing up buildings that is unacceptable.

Sooooo ... Robert Picton believes there is little or no distinction
between butchering pigs and butchering prostitutes.

No problem right, everyone is free to his own beliefs.

And he sets up a little private school right on his farm for eight to
twelve-year-olds to teach them about the virtues of his belief. And
just to make it all work out he decides to skip science, math, history
etc.

Question: How many kids is he allowed to graduate before he has "DONE"
something punishable in your opinion?

> > How can a country which does not allow Christian worship or even
> > Christian burial on its scared soil be our ally? A greater
incongruity
> > occurs when we learn about Saudi funding of terrorism.
>
> And here is the author's not too hidden agenda. America is a
> "Christian country". Anyone who does not allow Christian worship is
> the enemy...

And what's your "hidden" agenda?

> > The correct and honest course is to declare war on all Wahhabite
> > states and peoples.
>
> ...and should be blown up. OK, not hidden at all.

Nope, nope I didn't read that. But when language is mix and match and
water-down I can see how you might get that.

Russell Evermore



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Feb 12 21:16:10 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:16:10 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] on track to the Singularity, ho hum...
In-Reply-To: <184670-220042412145320392@M2W064.mail2web.com>
References: <184670-220042412145320392@M2W064.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212151419.01ccc890@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

< Experts said the Intel researchers appear to have achieved one of the 
rare performance increases known in the industry as "powers of 10,'' or 
exponential change, that has the potential to remake the modern computing 
world.

"There is a big difference between 10 megabits and one gigabit,'' Terabit's 
Dr. Huang said, noting that the advance should ultimately make it possible 
to create computers that "will be everywhere that you are.''

"People have been trying for this forever,'' he added. "You wouldn't 
believe how many articles I've read saying we might do this some day.''>

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/12/technology/12chip.html?th=&pagewanted=print&position= 




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 12 21:26:18 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:26:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
In-Reply-To: <000601c3f1a2$1f771640$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040212212618.70081.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Declare War on Wahhabism

On the contrary. The problem with this stance is that this is what they
want. Al qaeda is made up of wahab adherents, and is supported by
ultra-orthodox wahabbists in the Kingdom. Their intent, in picking so
many Saudis for the 911 attack was to divide the US from its allies in
the Saudi government. I said 'in' the government. I would not say the
entire government is our ally. The defense ministry, in particular, is
not. They want to expand their power in the Kingdom by taking over US
airbases, and they support the ultra orthodox wahabbists that decry the
'decadence' of modern Saudi society and the cultural influence of the
US on Saudi citizens.

The Wahabbists wanted us to treat Saudi Arabia as an enemy state, so
that Saudis would cast off US things and US ideas, and return to a
purer bedouin wahabbist lifestyle.

Instead, I would tell the Saudis that we want as many Saudi students to
come to the US to study as possible, with the caveat that each student
must spend at least one year living with a US non-muslim family.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu Feb 12 21:35:42 2004
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:35:42 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Gina's Animate update & check out new movie
References: <200402121958.i1CJwmc23619@tick.javien.com>
	<200402130727.43242@3-e.net>
Message-ID: <00ab01c3f1b0$2a3b18c0$b7be1218@Nano>

Hello, this is an update of my animation progress. I will be including a
link to a movie project that myself and three others created at Mesmer
animation labs. This movie was a one day project that we crunched through on
the last day of class. By completing this class I now have two Discreet
certificates. My first class certified me on 3DS Max Fundamentals, this last
class certified me in Special Effects and Combustion. My third class is next
month and will focus on character animation.
Here is the link you can click to see the movie we made:
http://remiel.dyndns.org/gimme_small.mov . When you click this link a
webpage will open up and it will be white, appearing like nothing is
happening, but the movie is downloading. You should see that your mouse
curser is in "thinking" mode if you move it around your screen. You might as
well just walk away and let it download for a while since this will take a
longtime to load. There is sound to this movie, so if you turn your volume
up before you click the link you will know it's playing by listening for the
sound. If you come back to your computer and you see the Quicktime window
played the movie without you, drag the circle on the slider back to the
beginning and click the arrow key to play it again.
Note: keep watching past the credits, the movie has a surprise after the
credits, so it's not over yet!

Currently I am taking in all of the skills I am learning. At the end of my
next class I intend to start working on nanotechnology projects/animations.
Any comments or suggestions will be gladly accepted.

Thanks!

Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."





From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Feb 12 21:58:12 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:58:12 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: anniversaries 
In-Reply-To: <p05100300bc51028af53c@[150.146.134.133]>
References: <p05100300bc51028af53c@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212155533.01ccc9d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 11:31 AM 2/12/2004 +0100, Amara wrote:

>There are two anniversaries next week:
>
>February 15, 1564 Galileo's birthday
>February 17, 1600 Giordano Bruno burned at the stake

There's a bicentennial this very day: 200 years since Kant died.

Damien Broderick 




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Feb 12 22:16:13 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 14:16:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
In-Reply-To: <200402122126.i1CLQ7402973@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <20040212221613.4244.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Major <extropy at audry2.com> wrote:
> Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> quotes Ray
> Pierce:
> > Can Wahhabism, which seeks either the conversion
> or death of all other
> > Muslim sects, plus all Christians, Jews, Hindus,
> Buddhists,
> > secularists and pagans, be considered acceptable
> in our modern and
> > pluralistic world?
> 
> Wahhabism is acceptable. We may not agree with it,
> but there is no
> belief which is not acceptable in a pluralistic
> world.
> 
> The *actions* of Wahhabites may or may not
> acceptable. If they stand
> on a mountain and tell us we should convert or
> commit suicide then
> they are doomed to fail but perfectly acceptable. If
> they start
> blowing up buildings that is unacceptable.

Ah, but what is the boundary between speech and action
in this context?  For instance, what if the member of
[sect] X were to claim that the anti-[sect] Y were a
child pornographer, and that X has personally
witnessed Y molest many children in the course of
making videos of children being raped, tortured, and
graphically murdered, and that X's [sect] friends A,
B, and C have also borne witness?  And when A, B, and
C, after consulting with X, echo X's claims about Y?

That's all speech, but the speech alone has a
detrimental effect on Y.  Now, consider if the claims
were completely made up.  And what happens if word
spreads that those who oppose [sect] will receive
similar treatment?  Rule by fear only needs a few
examples, so a substantial but far from majority
[sect] would have enough resources to execute this
policy.

Also consider what happens when justifying these
claims leads X and company to kidnap children and
produce the videos, afterwards disposing of all
evidence that countered their claims?  ("Yes, officer,
I saw where he buried the bodies.  I didn't touch them
because I knew you'd want to see them for yourself as
evidence.  You want proof that I didn't do it?  Look
here, at this hair sample that got buried with the
body in a way that might have been planted but it's
still the best evidence you've got.  I'm sure you'll
find it's his DNA and not mine.")  The speech, in this
case, is a direct cause of unallowable action.


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Thu Feb 12 23:41:30 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:41:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
References: <004901c3f114$3df45ad0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<001201c3f1c5$cca01380$abee17cb@renegade>
Message-ID: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Avatar Polymorph <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in 500 million years, well
> prior to it turning into a red giant.

It's expected to bloat up into a red giant in five billion years
or so.  What event do you place a mere 500 million years into the
future that would destroy terrestrial life?

> Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs and cats, not
> even in sheepdogs.

Actually, ISTR reading that house cats have substantially less brain
mass than the wildcats they are presumably derived from.  Probably
because being a cute pet purring for food is much simpler than
fending for yourself in the wild.  That's not quite the selection
effect you had in mind, I'm afraid.

http://www.nervenet.org/papers/wildcat.html#Results1

> All animals down to the smallest deserve to be boosted, even if this entails
> integrating human architecture (neural) into them.

I think I first encountered "uplifting" in David Brin's books, and
I never quite understood the desire to uplift other species--much
less the moral obligation you seem to imply.  (In particular, I
found Brin's uplifting of chimpanzees outright silly.  What do you
get when you anthropomorphize a chimp?  A human of course!)

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Feb 13 00:04:23 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:04:23 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] HIV vaccine advance
In-Reply-To: <001201c3f1c5$cca01380$abee17cb@renegade>
References: <004901c3f114$3df45ad0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<001201c3f1c5$cca01380$abee17cb@renegade>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040212180315.01d2a908@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

<Aussie vaccine 'blocks out' HIV
By Clara Pirani, Health editor and AAP
February 13, 2004

AUSTRALIAN researchers have developed a HIV vaccine which they claim 
controls the level of HIV in people recently infected with the virus.

The anti-retroviral drugs that are now used to treat HIV were developed to 
fight the actual virus - a treatment that is very effective but causes 
significant side-effects.

The vaccine called VIR201 was developed by Melbourne-based biotech company 
Virax and it works by boosting the body's immune system to fight virus.

The year-long trial involved 35 people recently infected with HIV.

They were given three different vaccines and the 12 people who received 
VIR201 recorded lower HIV levels than the other participants.

The researchers believe that by restricting the level of the virus, 
patients will not develop AIDS and can live long and relatively healthy, 
normal lives. > etc

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,8666666%255E2702,00.html




From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Fri Feb 13 00:44:05 2004
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:44:05 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Twins born from 12-year-old embryos
Message-ID: <402C1DD5.72EFED4B@Genius.UCSD.edu>

(apologies if this has already been posted here...)

Twins born from 12-year-old embryos
----------
  [Ananova]
"An Israeli women has given birth to healthy twins from 12-year-old frozen 
embryos.It is the world's longest period of freezing before a successful 
pregnancy, her fertility doctor has claimed." (02/04/04)
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_862677.html

(fwd from Insider Update, ifeminists.net)


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 00:50:22 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:50:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
In-Reply-To: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040213005022.90545.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> Avatar Polymorph <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> > The sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in 500 million
> years, well
> > prior to it turning into a red giant.
> 
> It's expected to bloat up into a red giant in five billion years
> or so.  What event do you place a mere 500 million years into the
> future that would destroy terrestrial life?

The 5 billion year mark is when earth gets swallowed by the sun's
expansion. The 500 million year mark is when it gets so hot that the
oceans boil.


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 13 01:04:18 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:04:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <402AB39C.768BE9E3@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <20040213010418.65705.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Johnius <Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu> wrote:
> Eugen wrote:
> > anime ... Hayao Miyazaki ... Studio Ghibli
> 
> 	Yes, can't forget the anime!  
> 
> > Cowboy Bebop
> 
> 	I've seen most of those ... I guess the series
> ended
> 	with no new sequels?

Most anime series do.  "Sequels", if they exist, are
usually follow-up movies rather than new seasons or
spin-off series.  CB has a movie; it actually made it
to US screens for a short run.  But usually one has to
get the DVD (or videotape) to see it.


From brentn at freeshell.org  Fri Feb 13 01:04:51 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 20:04:51 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
In-Reply-To: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-A105F8D05DC011D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/12/04 23:41) Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:

>I think I first encountered "uplifting" in David Brin's books, and
>I never quite understood the desire to uplift other species--much
>less the moral obligation you seem to imply.  (In particular, I
>found Brin's uplifting of chimpanzees outright silly.  What do you
>get when you anthropomorphize a chimp?  A human of course!)


I must admit to being a fan of Brin (and especially of his indictment of George Lucas. But I digress.), but I don't necessarily think that Brin's portrayal of the obligation to Uplift species was as much about morality as it was about the necessity of survival in the universe Brin had constructed for them. 

Outside of that fiction, it would be interesting to discuss what those moral obligations are.  It is certainly extropic to encourage the development of new intelligences. No doubt.

But I don't necessarily agree that uplifting a chimp necessarily gets you a human. Our forebears gave up their arboreal existence some time ago. Chimps are still arboreals. That's got to leave some residual marks on your base level instincts and whatnot. I mean, when I get a adrenaline boost, I don't get any urges to climb trees. Do you? ;)


B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Feb 13 01:33:23 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:33:23 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213005022.90545.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Mike Lorrey <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> The 5 billion year mark is when earth gets swallowed by the sun's
> expansion. The 500 million year mark is when it gets so hot that the
> oceans boil.

Reference?
(I can't find anything on this.)

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Feb 13 01:42:38 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 01:42:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<r02010100-1032-A105F8D05DC011D8B477000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <c0ha2e$2eg3$3@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Brent Neal <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> I must admit to being a fan of Brin (and especially of his indictment of
> George Lucas. But I digress.), but I don't necessarily think that Brin's
> portrayal of the obligation to Uplift species was as much about morality
> as it was about the necessity of survival in the universe Brin had
> constructed for them. 

Yes.  I guess my phrasing wasn't quite clear.  Avatar Polymorph
suggested the moral obligation, not Brin.

> But I don't necessarily agree that uplifting a chimp necessarily gets
> you a human.

Well, you need to modify
- the brain, to make it more human,
- the voicebox, to make it more human,
- the skeletal structure, to make it more human,
- ...

See a pattern there?

Yes, you can arrive at something that is still visibly and behaviorally
different from a human, but I still think it's a silly exercise.

> I mean, when I get a adrenaline boost, I don't get any urges to
> climb trees. Do you? ;)

Having just drunk a pot of mat? ("none of the side effects of
caffeine" my ass!), I do feel a certain urge to go out and cut down
a big tree.  Or just walk up the wall.  ;-)

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 02:06:41 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:06:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
In-Reply-To: <c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040213020641.27728.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> Mike Lorrey <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> > The 5 billion year mark is when earth gets swallowed by the sun's
> > expansion. The 500 million year mark is when it gets so hot that
> the
> > oceans boil.
> 
> Reference?
> (I can't find anything on this.)

Terraforming, Martyn J. Fogg

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 13 02:57:27 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 18:57:27 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) The Coming
	ClimateCollapse]
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE46alwhYInbp000548a8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009701c3f1dd$1d3f25d0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Kevin Freels
> Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) The Coming ClimateCollapse]
> 
> 
> All this talk has got me feeling all funny inside....like 
> when we used to climb the rope in gym class..:-)

Has anyone ever figured out what that was, why that 
used to happen, and why doesn't work anymore?

> ... could make some dramatic changes..for good or ill.
> Piping fresh water into Northern Africa from the Nile to 
> create an inland sea would reduce the water downstream, and much of it
would 
> evaporate. But that evaporated water would come back down somewhere as
well. 
> ...These seemingly crazy ideas have me thinking. What other mad 
> ideas can we dream up...

Please Kevin, explain to me what is crazy or mad about
that idea.  What is the downside?  There is all that
empty useless land out there that doesn't even support
much wildlife, never mind human life, simply because it is
too dry, and we do nothing to fix it.  The doing nothing
seems mad and crazy to me.  

We wouldn't even *need* to pipe water down from the 
Nile, the Congo or Lake Victoria necessarily, altho those
might prove to be excellent options.  We could dig an 
enormous north-south canal somewhere along the western 
seaboard of Africa, then pump water from the sea into it,
perhaps even by harnessing the tides.  Then we could 
arrange for some of it to evaporate, use the fresh water 
and drain the saltier water back out to sea.  

> that may actually help improve the lives of humans 
> worldwide?

Of course.

> What would their short and long term effects be?


Longer better lives for the north Africans.  Open that
place up to industry and tourism.  Look at the Bahamas:
almost entirely populated by Africans.  Lots of good
things happening there: tourism, trade like crazy,
lots of agriculture, etc.


> What drawbacks may be lingering
> that could do more harm than good?

None that I can tell.  They might eventually become
the new China, offering super cheap manufactured
goods, so that China needs to find other things
to do with all those people.  But the Chinese are
intelligent and resourceful, I have all confidence
in the world that they can find a solution.

I don't see why even the greens would object to
making the desert bloom.  We could put some forests
out there, move in some of our endangered species,
so everyone wins.

>From missionary work I have been very indirectly
involved with, one clear lesson is this: one cannot
help a population until you arrange for them to get
a steady supply of reliable clean water.  That is
problem 1.  Without a solution to that, we are
wasting our time trying to even stop constant
warfare.  If people are dying of thirst, or of
hunger from withered crops, they have nothing to
lose from killing their neighbors.

I don't know how this will work out eventually,
but I could even imagine the world deciding that
it is an international crime to allow fresh water 
to drain uselessly into the sea.  I can visualize
nations banding together build water control
infrastructure to divert water wherever it is needed,
and the same infrastructure used to prevent flooding
when the rains do come.

Consider that in most cases one need not even have
active pumping.  Example: water flows in pipes
from the Taxifornia Owens Valley, hundreds of
kilometers over mountains and thru valleys all the 
way down to the once-desert wasteland that is now the 
Los Angeles basin, all by gravity and clever engineering.  
We *know* how to do it, and pipes are cheap. 

> 
> I can;t even sleep at night right now with these crazy ideas flowing!
> 
> Kevin Freels

Again I ask, Kevin, what is so crazy?  There would
likely be terrorists who would try to blow up the
pipes for whatever reason, perhaps they observe that
poor people are more religious or whatever.  But with
modern tech, we could figure out solutions to that.
We might need to bury the pipes for much of the
way, but that can be arranged.  I suspect that
*every* north African government would go along
with the idea, with the possible exception of
Egypt, and so we buy their support.

Wasting water is wasting food is wasting money.
And we all know that it is a sin to waste money.

I can envision a billion people living comfortably
in the area that is now barely supporting a few million
war-torn and starving wretches.

spike



From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Feb 13 03:13:21 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 03:13:21 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <c0hfch$2i80$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

David Lubkin <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Thinking about animals adapting in the wake of humans got me wondering 
> about animals in the wake of transhumans.

I'll go off on a (necessarily) posthuman tangent here.

Currently, a major concern is conservation.  Of individual species,
their habitats, entire ecologies.

But if you consider the long term--and I mean the really long term,
say, millions of years rather than millennia--then conservation
turns into a profoundly artificial action requiring major interference.
Habitats change and disappear, species adapt and thus change, or
die off.  Even large-scale extinction events become regular
occurrences.  For the history of life on Earth it has always been
like this.  Preserving the status quo of the year 2000 C.E. until
eternity would be entirely unnatural (for those who care about a
distinction natural/artificial) and more importantly, it would also
disallow future developments of unknown potential.

Think of the arrival of grasses during the Miocene.  If you zoom
in on any particular point in time, it probably looked all very
static.  As you zoom out, the spread of grasses becomes an enormous
ecological catastrophy.  Innumerable habitats were destroyed and
countless species driven to extinction.  The odd-toed ungulates,
which were the dominant terrestrial herbivores at the time, were
forced into a brutal decline that continues to this day.  The
even-toed ungulates on the other hand became enormously successful
and diversified.  Zoom out even more on the timescale, and grasses
were just one of those changes that occasionally sweep the planet.
Nothing to become excited about.

Humanity's influence on the biosphere may rate as an extinction
event, but hey, we've had a bunch of those, including really bad
ones.  Every child knows about the Cretaceous-Tertiary mass extinction,
but don't forget that the dinosaurs owed their spectacular success
to the Triassic-Jurassic one.

While I don't necessarily disagree with current conservation efforts,
we are already seeing some strange cases.  Environments that were
created by humans in the first place, only a few centuries or
millennia ago, are considered "natural" ecologies worthy of
preservation.  Here in Germany, people fight to preserve grasslands
that presumably sprung up only after the wholesale deforestation
during the Middle Ages (which, btw, is usually lauded as an
all-wonderful gain in arable land, when it should really be condemned
as an act of catastrophic environmental destruction by today's
Greenish standards).  It has become a standing joke that any piece
of unused wasteland that has been left alone for a few decades has
suddenly turned into a unique biotope that must be preserved.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 13 03:32:15 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:32:15 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040208211015.03c390e8@mail.comcast.net>
	<c0hfch$2i80$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <016701c3f1e1$fac42500$81cd5cd1@neptune>

Hey, I've proposed uplifting certain species here before, such as
octopodes.  The idea would not be to make humans out of them, but to
make sentients that are radically different than humans to further
explore the meme space of intelligence -- or just to trade with, etc.

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/



From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Sat Feb 14 00:12:15 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:12:15 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Animals
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402120522110.30566-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c3f28f$384077a0$d6ee17cb@renegade>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Animals


> 
> On Thu, 12 Feb 2004, Avatar Polymorph wrote:
> 
> > The sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in 500 million years, well
> > prior to it turning into a red giant.
> 
> From an extropic perspective is unreasonable to assume this scenario.
> (I have not bothered taking on all of the astronomers who promote this
> perspective however -- since it is perhaps hundreds to thousands of
> individuals and I simply do not view it as worth my time).
> 
> For this statement to make sense you either have to argue that humanity
> will be extinct or will have exited the solar system long before that
> "natural" condition might take place *or* argue that humanity if it
> exists as long as 500 million years will not engineer either the Earth
> or other habitats or the sun so this simply will not happen.  One then
> has real probabilities problems.
> 
> You cannot ignore the presence of intelligence as a component in the
> evolution of the universe.

Of course Robert... I meant, if we left them alone on the Earth and the Earth
as it is and was. I.e. we "remove" ourselves elsewhere (certainly one
scenario often discussed). I do not believe in the moral existence of "species", only
individuals and their social choices. Individuals die, not species, as actual
neurological entities. Perhaps you could say "species" exist as a meme. They
exist within a physical definition. But not a moral definition. All death should occur
by consent. All sentient or semi-conscious lift should be offered choice. This is my
perspective, one informed not by a post-humanist perspective but a post-species
perspective (along the lines of Broderickian "Exes"). This means that I do not go
along with greens and the likes of David Suzuki, since I see the environment as a
tool for neurologically based beings (and including those to come such as AIs).
Though our present biosphere has a spiritual dimension nonetheless it will be
set aside so far as the neurological kingdom is concerned... in a strange reversal
of the myth of Eden we will enter a new Garden, of non-neurological plant and 
nanomaterial and energy systems - we will all eat of the fruit of eternal life and the
fruit of knowledge.

> Humans are not "actively selecting" for intelligence in dogs and cats, not
> even in sheepdogs.
>>Ca-ca.  Go to any dog show and watch the performance of the animals --
>>I doubt you would be able to claim we are not selecting for intelligence.

Active surely means active. It means a deliberate, planned, tested and implemented
breeding programme with specific sets of objectives. E.g. memory, puzzle solving,
anticipation, extrapolation, guessing, social rapport etc..

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From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Feb 13 10:02:15 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:02:15 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
In-Reply-To: <c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213005022.90545.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
	<c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040213100215.GH28489@leitl.org>

On Fri, Feb 13, 2004 at 01:33:23AM +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Reference?
> (I can't find anything on this.)

http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit3/thesun.html

says 

Mid-Life Crisis for the Earth

5.6 Gyr (1.1 Gyr from today):

    * Sun 10% brighter: ~1.1 Lsun
    * Cause a moist greenhouse effect on Earth, driving away most of the
    * water in the air. 

9 Gyr (3.5 Gyr from today):

    * Sun 40% brighter: ~1.4 Lsun
    * Oceans totally evaporate in a runaway greenhouse effect: Earth like
    * Venus today. 

I have no idea how reliable is this. Even 1% of solar constant change
typically can wreak havoc to climate, so 10% increase sounds pretty
catastrophic to me.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Fri Feb 13 11:29:16 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:29:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
In-Reply-To: <20040213100215.GH28489@leitl.org>
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213005022.90545.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
	<c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de> <20040213100215.GH28489@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402131218140.29437@hercules>

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote:

>On Fri, Feb 13, 2004 at 01:33:23AM +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>> Reference?
>> (I can't find anything on this.)
>
>http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit3/thesun.html
>
>says
>
>Mid-Life Crisis for the Earth
>
>5.6 Gyr (1.1 Gyr from today):
>
>    * Sun 10% brighter: ~1.1 Lsun
>    * Cause a moist greenhouse effect on Earth, driving away most of the
>    * water in the air.

This increase is common for small main-sequence stars, like our Sun. The
reason is that hot fusion is really difficult. At the ~15 million degrees
and high pressure in the Sun's nucleus, the average proton must wait ~14
billions years before undergoing fusion. Since the Sun was born only 5
billions years ago, right now it's shining only thanks to the "lucky"
protons that are undergoing fusion much earlier.

Slowly, the probability that each proton undergoings fusion goes up, and
the amount of energy produced goes up as well. The Sun will stop fusing
hydrogen in another 5 billions years, before the maximum energy output is
reached.

Alfio



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Fri Feb 13 14:41:10 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 08:41:10 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] hydrogen reactor claim
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402131218140.29437@hercules>
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213005022.90545.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
	<c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213100215.GH28489@leitl.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.58.0402131218140.29437@hercules>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040213083838.01beaef0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

New Reactor Puts Hydrogen From Renewable Fuels Within Reach

University of Minnesota

The first reactor capable of producing hydrogen from a renewable fuel 
source--ethanol--efficiently enough to hold economic potential has been 
invented by University of Minnesota engineers. When coupled with a hydrogen 
fuel cell, the unit--small enough to hold in your hand--could generate one 
kilowatt of power, almost enough to supply an average home, the researchers 
said. The technology is poised to remove the major stumbling block to the 
"hydrogen economy": no free hydrogen exists, except what is made at high 
cost from fossil fuels. The work will be published in the Feb. 13 issue of 
Science.

The researchers see an early use for their invention in remote areas, where 
the installation of new power lines is not feasible. People could buy 
ethanol and use it to power small hydrogen fuel cells in their basements. 
The process could also be extended to biodiesel fuels, the researchers 
said. Its benefits include reducing dependence on imported fuels, reducing 
carbon dioxide emissions (because the carbon dioxide produced by the 
reaction is stored in the next year's corn crop) and boosting rural economies.

Hydrogen is now produced exclusively by a process called steam reforming, 
which requires very high temperatures and large furnaces--in other words, a 
huge input of energy. It's unsuitable for any application except 
large-scale refineries, said Lanny Schmidt, Regents Professor of Chemical 
Engineering, who led the effort. Working with him were scientist Gregg 
Deluga, first author of the Science paper, and graduate student James 
Salge. All three are in the university's department of chemical engineering 
and materials science.

"The hydrogen economy means cars and electricity powered by hydrogen," said 
Schmidt. "But hydrogen is hard to come by. You can't pipe it long 
distances. There are a few hydrogen fueling stations, but they strip 
hydrogen from methane--natural gas--on site. It's expensive, and because it 
uses fossil fuels, it increases carbon dioxide emissions, so this is only a 
short-term solution until renewable hydrogen is available."

Ethanol is easy to transport and relatively nontoxic. It is already being 
produced from corn and used in car engines. But if it were used instead to 
produce hydrogen for a fuel cell, the whole process would be nearly three 
times as efficient. That is, a bushel of corn would yield three times as 
much power if its energy were channeled into hydrogen fuel cells rather 
than burned along with gasoline.

"We can potentially capture 50 percent of the energy stored in sugar [in 
corn], whereas converting the sugar to ethanol and burning the ethanol in a 
car would harvest only 20 percent of the energy in sugar," said Schmidt. 
"Ethanol in car engines is burned with 20 percent efficiency, but if you 
used ethanol to make hydrogen for a fuel cell, you would get 60 percent 
efficiency."

The difference, Deluga explained, is due in large part to the need to 
remove all the water from ethanol before it can be put in an automobile gas 
tank--and the last drops of water are the hardest to remove. But the new 
process doesn't require pure ethanol; in fact, it strips hydrogen from both 
ethanol and water, yielding a hydrogen bonus.

The invention rests on two innovations: a catalyst based on the metals 
rhodium and ceria, and an automotive fuel injector that vaporizes and mixes 
the ethanol-water fuel. The vaporized fuel mixture is injected into a tube 
that contains a porous plug made from rhodium and ceria. The fuel mixture 
passes through the plug and emerges as a mixture of hydrogen, carbon 
dioxide and minor products. The reaction takes only 50 milliseconds and 
eliminates the flames and soot that commonly accompany ethanol combustion.

In a typical ethanol-water fuel mixture, one could ideally get five 
molecules of hydrogen for each molecule of ethanol. Reacting ethanol alone 
would yield three hydrogen molecules. So far, the Schmidt team has 
harvested four hydrogen molecules per ethanol molecule.

"We're confident we can improve this technology to increase the yield of 
hydrogen and use it to power a workable fuel cell," said Salge.





From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 15:08:06 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 09:08:06 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) The
	ComingClimateCollapse]
References: <009701c3f1dd$1d3f25d0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE60ED5dRNx4C0000bcef@hotmail.com>

>
> Please Kevin, explain to me what is crazy or mad about
> that idea.  What is the downside?  There is all that
> empty useless land out there that doesn't even support
> much wildlife, never mind human life, simply because it is
> too dry, and we do nothing to fix it.  The doing nothing
> seems mad and crazy to me.

The "mad" and "crazy" was meant more tongue-in-cheek. People who want to do
anything drastic, no matter how good the idea are often "mad" or "crazy".



>
> We wouldn't even *need* to pipe water down from the
> Nile, the Congo or Lake Victoria necessarily, altho those
> might prove to be excellent options.  We could dig an
> enormous north-south canal somewhere along the western
> seaboard of Africa, then pump water from the sea into it,
> perhaps even by harnessing the tides.  Then we could
> arrange for some of it to evaporate, use the fresh water
> and drain the saltier water back out to sea.

OK. This is what I am wanting to know. I guess what I am after are some
actual plans that are realistic and not too expensive. Plans that could be
accomplished with teh same money that we currently spend on foreign aid tot
he same areas of the world.


>
> > What drawbacks may be lingering
> > that could do more harm than good?
>
> None that I can tell.  They might eventually become
> the new China, offering super cheap manufactured
> goods, so that China needs to find other things
> to do with all those people.  But the Chinese are
> intelligent and resourceful, I have all confidence
> in the world that they can find a solution.
>
> I don't see why even the greens would object to
> making the desert bloom.  We could put some forests
> out there, move in some of our endangered species,
> so everyone wins.

Many people would resist such a thing. Otherwise it would have happened
already. They resist because of fear. I think the fear comes from the
possible consequences such as reduced rainfall in other regions, turning
good land into desert  Simply put, there is the general fear of "tampering
with nature". Something like this, if pulled off properly, could very well
change many people's opinions about "tampering with nature". This would not
only benefit the people who get the water, but the entire human population!
This foolish, impossible idea of not fooling with mother nature is the
number two barrier to singularity...right behind religion. If we could pull
off such a thing it would be just plain wonderful.

So I ask, where would the best place to do this be? Where would we get the
greatest impact, for the least amount of work, money, and resistance? I am
going to work on a plan, then we'll get into the spotlight. Maybe we can get
this done!


From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 13 16:04:20 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:04:20 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] DVD recommendations?
References: <20040213010418.65705.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <011501c3f24b$0b614960$86cd5cd1@neptune>

On Thursday, February 12, 2004 8:04 PM Adrian Tymes wingcat at pacbell.net
wrote:
>>> Cowboy Bebop
>>
>> I've seen most of those ... I guess the series
>> ended
>> with no new sequels?
>
> Most anime series do.  "Sequels", if they
> exist, are usually follow-up movies rather
> than new seasons or spin-off series.  CB
> has a movie; it actually made it to US
> screens for a short run.  But usually one
> has to get the DVD (or videotape) to
> see it.

I saw the movie when it first came out on DVD and it's kind of just like
an extended episode rather than a movie.  Too bad, I liked that series a
lot.

Dan



From brian at posthuman.com  Fri Feb 13 16:02:27 2004
From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 10:02:27 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] NASA may be open sourcing some code someday
Message-ID: <402CF513.80906@posthuman.com>

http://news.osdir.com/article448.html
-- 
Brian Atkins
Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence
http://www.singinst.org/


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 13 16:41:06 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:41:06 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mating Rictuals and Thick Skull
Message-ID: <48270-22004251316416128@M2W074.mail2web.com>

Well, this caused my coffee to spill onto my keyboard.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/02/12/coolsc.thickskulls/index.html

"CNN) -- Get it through your once-thick skull. Scientists say the bulky
craniums of the human ancestor, homo erectus, may have helped the species
survive some aggressive mating rituals."

Gives new meaning to homo erectus and hard heads.

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 13 18:21:45 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:21:45 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)
	TheComing Climate Collapse]
Message-ID: <402D15B9.4CFDC3E@mindspring.com>

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: FWD [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) TheComing Climate 
Collapse]
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:51:03 -0500
From: "Stephen W. Bieda Jr."
To: "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com>

It's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. Changing the hydrology of one
place can lead to unforeseen and not always desireable effects elsewhere.
The Biosphere includes the Climate system which is the epitome of chaotic
nonlinear systems and messing with that can cause real problems.

Steve


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 13 18:47:26 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:47:26 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD
	(SK)TheComing Climate Collapse]
References: <402D15B9.4CFDC3E@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE148fYYBgSyW00056509@hotmail.com>

True, but it's not like the climate is actually stable or anything. Can a
chaotic system actually be made more or less chaotic?



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com>
To: <Extropy-chat at extropy.org>; "Forteana /Alternate Orphan/"
<forteana at yahoogroups.com>; <skeptic at listproc.hcf.jhu.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 12:21 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)TheComing
Climate Collapse]


> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FWD [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) TheComing
Climate
> Collapse]
> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:51:03 -0500
> From: "Stephen W. Bieda Jr."
> To: "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com>
>
> It's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. Changing the hydrology of one
> place can lead to unforeseen and not always desireable effects elsewhere.
> The Biosphere includes the Climate system which is the epitome of chaotic
> nonlinear systems and messing with that can cause real problems.
>
> Steve
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From spike66 at comcast.net  Fri Feb 13 19:06:30 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:06:30 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD
	(SK)TheComing Climate Collapse]
In-Reply-To: <402D15B9.4CFDC3E@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3f264$7d44d420$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

 
> Terry W. Colvin

> Subject: FWD [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) 
> TheComing Climate Collapse]

> 
> It's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. Changing the 
> hydrology of one place can lead to unforeseen and not always
desireable 
> effects elsewhere.  The Biosphere includes the Climate system which is
the 
> epitome of chaotic nonlinear systems and messing with that can cause
real
> problems... Steve

We already *have* real problems.  We need to implement
real solutions.  Most of the rainfall on the African
continent and the tropics never exists in the form of
ice or snow.  So the rains come, floods cause problems, 
then the flood waters drain off, dry season, more problems.

We need to build dams and pipes to even out natures 
enormous water purifier.  Those of us in the 
technologically advanced world would never tolerate 
alternating flooding and droughts constantly ruining 
our lives.  I don't see why the Africans tolerate that.

Seems to me that we could buy enormous swaths of
the Sahara Desert.  How much could it be worth?  Almost
nada in its current state.  We could buy water rights 
out of the Congo and Nile as well.  That land has 
enormous potential.  Its a developer's dream.

spike
   



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 20:18:45 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:18:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK) The
	ComingClimateCollapse]
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE60ED5dRNx4C0000bcef@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040213201845.34204.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Please Kevin, explain to me what is crazy or mad about
> > that idea.  What is the downside?  There is all that
> > empty useless land out there that doesn't even support
> > much wildlife, never mind human life, simply because it is
> > too dry, and we do nothing to fix it.  The doing nothing
> > seems mad and crazy to me.
> 
> The "mad" and "crazy" was meant more tongue-in-cheek. People who want
> to do anything drastic, no matter how good the idea are often "mad"
or
> "crazy".

Depends on what you mean by "drastic". If "drastic" simply means doing
something that needs doing that others are too
lazy/poor/antagonistic/unmotivated to venture toward, that means they
are simply more entrepreneurial than others, it certainly isn't 'crazy'
or 'mad'.

> >
> > We wouldn't even *need* to pipe water down from the
> > Nile, the Congo or Lake Victoria necessarily, altho those
> > might prove to be excellent options.  We could dig an
> > enormous north-south canal somewhere along the western
> > seaboard of Africa, then pump water from the sea into it,
> > perhaps even by harnessing the tides.  Then we could
> > arrange for some of it to evaporate, use the fresh water
> > and drain the saltier water back out to sea.
> 
> OK. This is what I am wanting to know. I guess what I am after are
> some actual plans that are realistic and not too expensive. Plans
that
> could be accomplished with teh same money that we currently spend on
> foreign aid tot he same areas of the world.

There is an interesting technique using vacuum desalination that is
extremely energy efficient comparted to conventional sea level
evaporative distillaion. It essentially involves building a pipe
arrangement which is configured as an upside down U. One end of the U
is in salt water, the other end is in fresh water. The bow end of the U
is a hundred or more feet in the air, and the air inside the U is
pumped out until the water level rises high enough and the remaining
pressure inside is low enough that water will vacuum evaporate from the
salt water, travel up to the peak of the U, be condensed, and flow down
the fresh water side.

Using passive solar heating, this could be made entirely automatic and
provide a significant flow of fresh water.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 20:21:55 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 12:21:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)
	TheComing Climate Collapse]
In-Reply-To: <402D15B9.4CFDC3E@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20040213202155.3040.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: FWD [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)
> TheComing Climate 
> Collapse]
> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 23:51:03 -0500
> From: "Stephen W. Bieda Jr."
> To: "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com>
> 
> It's not nice to mess with Mother Nature. Changing the hydrology of
> one place can lead to unforeseen and not always desireable effects
> elsewhere. The Biosphere includes the Climate system which is the
> epitome of chaotic nonlinear systems and messing with that can
> cause real problems.

The biosphere is broke, and the US isn't the only ones at fault. The
third world deforestation of north africa is THE most significant
environmental impact today, far more important to the climate than CO2
levels. When you can see from orbit the dust flowing from the Sahara to
South America, there is a significant problem there that needs fixing.

How come only American pollution needs fixing? Isn't that kinda racist?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brentn at freeshell.org  Fri Feb 13 20:48:10 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 15:48:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)
	TheComing Climate Collapse]
In-Reply-To: <20040213202155.3040.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-EFBD2B285E6511D8A4BB000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/13/04 12:21) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>The biosphere is broke, and the US isn't the only ones at fault. The
>third world deforestation of north africa is THE most significant
>environmental impact today, far more important to the climate than CO2
>levels. When you can see from orbit the dust flowing from the Sahara to
>South America, there is a significant problem there that needs fixing.


Either that, or the massive peat fires (also human-caused) that rage in Indonesia. A few years ago, those fires dumped as much CO2 into the atmosphere as all the human activity in Europe. Of course, they are rarely mentioned in the "Eco-Press." 

Deforestation -everywhere- is a serious issue, since most of the enviromental scientists who also understand nonlinear dynamics are saying that the large, dense forests tend to act as part of a complex regulatory system (that includes phytoplankton and lots of other stuff that I don't remember offhand.)  Maybe someone here can fill in the missing spots where my memory is failing - some of my references come from Bjorn Lomberg, others from various climatological modelling papers I read when I was doing computational modelling for a living.

ObLibertarian: If you have private landownership of these large forests, how do you prevent people from making a rational economic decision to cut them down with out regulations or financial incentives?

B

--
Brent Neal
Geekery. Politics. Spirituality.
http://brentn.freeshell.org/blog
"Is reincarnation like rebooting your soul?"


From dan at 3-e.net  Fri Feb 13 21:09:27 2004
From: dan at 3-e.net (Daniel Matthews)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 08:09:27 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] meme is a meme
Message-ID: <200402140809.27692@3-e.net>

The pattern "meme" has started replicating on this list (again?).



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 13 21:12:05 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:12:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] NASA may be open sourcing some code someday
In-Reply-To: <402CF513.80906@posthuman.com>
Message-ID: <20040213211205.15850.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Atkins <brian at posthuman.com> wrote:
> http://news.osdir.com/article448.html

Of course, one could argue that any code owned by NASA
itself (not including code used by NASA but written by
its subcontractors, etc.) should already be open
source
per existing law.


From joe at barrera.org  Fri Feb 13 21:28:58 2004
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 13:28:58 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] meme is a meme
In-Reply-To: <200402140809.27692@3-e.net>
References: <200402140809.27692@3-e.net>
Message-ID: <402D419A.3090502@barrera.org>

Daniel Matthews wrote:

>  The pattern "meme" has started replicating on this list (again?).

Does that mean that this list is a "Successful Memetic Incubator"?

- Joe



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 22:05:39 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:05:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)
	TheComing Climate Collapse]
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-EFBD2B285E6511D8A4BB000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
Message-ID: <20040213220539.94096.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Brent Neal <brentn at freeshell.org> wrote:
> 
> ObLibertarian: If you have private landownership of these large
> forests, how do you prevent people from making a rational economic
> decision to cut them down with out regulations or financial
> incentives?

The stripped value of the land is the financial disincentive against
deforestation. Virtually all deforestation occurs on public lands that
are leased by industry. Leasing eliminates long term stewardship and
negative price signalling one deals with when one owns the land and has
to figure in future resale value.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 22:26:33 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:26:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] meme is a meme
In-Reply-To: <402D419A.3090502@barrera.org>
Message-ID: <20040213222633.2256.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe at barrera.org> wrote:
> Daniel Matthews wrote:
> 
> >  The pattern "meme" has started replicating on this list (again?).
> 
> Does that mean that this list is a "Successful Memetic Incubator"?

Incubation is an act of creation. Replication is merely redundancy,
i.e. a production problem.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 13 22:58:10 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 14:58:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] NASA may be open sourcing some code someday
In-Reply-To: <20040213211205.15850.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040213225810.76499.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- Brian Atkins <brian at posthuman.com> wrote:
> > http://news.osdir.com/article448.html
> 
> Of course, one could argue that any code owned by NASA
> itself (not including code used by NASA but written by
> its subcontractors, etc.) should already be open
> source
> per existing law.

This isn't unique. NASA earns money for its budget through its
technology transfer program. As such, it is doing job shop R&D and such
programs are not on the tax rolls, so it's not strictly public domain knowledge.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 13 23:43:25 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:43:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth
References: <20040213220539.94096.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <017b01c3f28b$2e612440$7dcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 13, 2004 5:05 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
wrote:
>> ObLibertarian: If you have private landownership
>> of these large forests, how do you prevent people
>> from making a rational economic decision to cut
>> them down with out regulations or financial
>> incentives?
>
> The stripped value of the land is the financial
> disincentive against deforestation. Virtually all
> deforestation occurs on public lands that are
> leased by industry. Leasing eliminates long
> term stewardship and negative price signalling
> one deals with when one owns the land and has
> to figure in future resale value.

That's a lot of it and also the governments often build the roads and
provide other services to timber companies on public lands.  Typically,
these reduce costs a lot by passing them on to the taxpayer at large.
In a completely privatized system, the owners would have to pay for the
roads, etc.  So they would experience higher costs for extracting
timber.

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/



From brentn at freeshell.org  Fri Feb 13 23:37:38 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:37:38 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)
	TheComing Climate Collapse]
In-Reply-To: <20040213220539.94096.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-9C5FD6FC5E7D11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/13/04 14:05) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>The stripped value of the land is the financial disincentive against
>deforestation. Virtually all deforestation occurs on public lands that
>are leased by industry. Leasing eliminates long term stewardship and
>negative price signalling one deals with when one owns the land and has
>to figure in future resale value.

Is that really the case when the land is more valuable to the natives as pastureland or farmland, a la the rainforest in the Amazonian basin? As far as I know, that land isn't "leased" from anyone. Your explanation makes sense in the US, with our laws and economy, but I don't think it generalizes well.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Feb 14 00:05:59 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:05:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney World
In-Reply-To: <Law9-OE274Atg2c7qIA00000ac3@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040214000559.72680.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com>

A car allows me to move in ways otherwise impossible.
Ditto a boat or an airplane, or a motorcycle.  In
fact, they could even be argued to allow certain
people (who live in rural areas) to move through areas
that "normal" (urban) people can walk to just fine (by
the fact that they allow rural people to get to these
urban centers at all).  But none of these are closer
to "prosthetic limb" than "vehicle".  (Yes, there is a
kind of body extension that goes on in these cases.  A
very skilled driver or pilot can feel the vehicle like
a body extension.  But that itself doesn't make a
vehicle into a prosthetic limb.)

Now, if you really want a borderline case: what about
a sci-fi powersuit: a shell over the body that moves
in basically humanoid fashion, only much faster and
with much more strength?  Like a vehicle, a person can
"enter" and "exit" (more like "put on" and "take
off"), and probably has some other vehicle-type
controls (although basic walking would be done by
walking, if the suit was small enough to fit through
normal doorways).  For sake of argument, assume the
suit weighs no more than 50 pounds (plus the weight of
the occupant) and is electrically powered (no
emissions) with batteries or whatnot lasting at least
8 hours per charge.  So...on what basis could this be
banned from any area where average humans are
permitted to walk?  (Security might be an excuse,
since it's easily armored and could conceal weapons,
but that kind of goes against "where average humans
are permitted to walk" since a secure area doesn't let
just anyone in anyway.)

--- Brian Alexander Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com>
wrote:
> If you read the article, there are several examples
> of people with
> neurological disorders that prevent them from
> walking properly. To them the
> segway is more like a prosthetic limb, it allows
> them to move in ways
> otherwise impossible. They are unable to sit un a
> wheelchair for extended
> periods of time and the segway gives them better
> interaction with other
> people.
> 
> This is a precursor to actual body mods that will
> replace or augment damaged
> muscles or minds.
> 
> It's pretty short-sited of disney to disallow such
> devices.
> 
> 
> BAL
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 12:52 PM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Segways banned in Disney
> World
> 
> 
> > --- Brian Alexander Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > The segway can be seen as a body modification so
> > > it's user becomes sort of a
> > > cyborg (especially in the case of otherwise
> disabled
> > > persons).
> >
> > Not really.  It's a lot closer to the common
> concept
> > of "vehicle" than "body modification".  (Of
> course,
> > one could argue that most vehicles could be seen
> as
> > extensions of the body.  But this ignores the
> reason
> > we distinguish vehicles from their drivers/pilots
> in
> > the first place.)
> >
> > > I guess this is an example of the public not
> coping
> > > with transhumanist
> > > themes very well.
> >
> > Not really.  Segways were given a chance, and
> proved
> > that they can easily become unsafe under common
> > conditions (specifically, when the battery runs
> low or
> > when driven by an uncautious person).
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 14 00:08:50 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:08:50 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD (SK)
	TheComingClimateCollapse]
In-Reply-To: <20040213201845.34204.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3f28e$b9c8ac80$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Mike Lorrey
> 
> There is an interesting technique using vacuum desalination that is
> extremely energy efficient comparted to conventional sea level
> evaporative distillaion... The bow end of the U
> is a hundred or more feet in the air, and the air inside the U is
> pumped out...
> 
> Using passive solar heating, this could be made entirely automatic and
> provide a significant flow of fresh water... Mike Lorrey

Cool idea Mike!  Nowthen for you water infrastructure fans,
use your imagination for the following design experiment.  
Assume you want to distill seawater, but you do not want to
supply actual power to run pumps.  You are on a seacoast
and you may build any static structures you wish.
You may use valves, powered or otherwise, locks, 
trenches of any length, width and depth, glass and steel
with sufficient precision to hold a vaccum, any passive 
device you want, and of course you may use heat from the
sun to evaporate the water, but not to generate
electricity to run pumps.  You may take advantage of
the tides and tidal resonance, for instance by making
a long narrow inlet to amplify tidal effects the way the 
Bay of Fundy in Canada uses passive tidal resonance to 
make those 20+ meter tidal changes.
  
The resulting fresh water need not be at a higher
elevation than the average sea level, but the surface
of the fresh water must not be lower than the low tide
surface of the sea.  Higher is better.  Recall that an 
atmosphere is about 10 meters of water. One can estimate 
the maximum possible output of the plant by knowing that 
the sunlight at the equator is (close enough for single
digit precision) a kilowatt per square meter peak, and 
that the heat of vaporization of water is about 
540K calories per liter and a calorie is about 4 joules. 

Your mission: design a desalination plant that works
entirely on heat from the sun, the tides and passive
elements.  If you find a good design, your idea could
have enormous positive impact on the less developed
world.

spike   



From neptune at superlink.net  Sat Feb 14 00:25:10 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:25:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth
References: <r02010100-1032-9C5FD6FC5E7D11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>
Message-ID: <01a801c3f291$02395f80$7dcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 13, 2004 6:37 PM Brent Neal brentn at freeshell.org
wrote:
>> The stripped value of the land is the financial
>> disincentive against deforestation. Virtually
>> all deforestation occurs on public lands that
>> are leased by industry. Leasing eliminates
>> long term stewardship and negative price
>> signalling one deals with when one owns
>> the land and has to figure in future resale
>> value.
>
> Is that really the case when the land is more
> valuable to the natives as pastureland or
> farmland, a la the rainforest in the Amazonian
> basin? As far as I know, that land isn't "leased"
> from anyone. Your explanation makes sense in
> the US, with our laws and economy, but I don't
> think it generalizes well.

The Brazilian government actually subsidizes ranching and agriculture in
the Amazon basin and has been doing so for decades -- as well as pushing
the natives off their land and not recognizing any ownership rights to
it.  The Brazilian government also puts in lines of communication and
the like, reducing the costs even lower.  Absent that government
intervention abd recognize the natives' right to property in the region
then, chances are, there'd be a lot less farming and ranching in the
Amazon basin.

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 14 00:16:25 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 16:16:25 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth [WAS: FWD
	(SK)TheComing Climate Collapse]
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-EFBD2B285E6511D8A4BB000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
Message-ID: <000201c3f28f$c8f04320$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

>  (2/13/04 12:21) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >The biosphere is broke...
> 
> ObLibertarian: If you have private landownership of these 
> large forests, how do you prevent people from making a 
> rational economic decision to cut them down with out 
> regulations or financial incentives? Brent Neal

You hire the locals to guard and protect all that 
expensive infrastructure.  They already have the 
weapons, we just give them a worthwhile mission.

There we go, something even the stodgiest greens
would go for: re-forestation of the Sahara.

spike



From brentn at freeshell.org  Sat Feb 14 00:26:00 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 19:26:00 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Terraforming Earth
In-Reply-To: <01a801c3f291$02395f80$7dcd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-5E0962C85E8411D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/13/04 19:25) Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> wrote:

>The Brazilian government actually subsidizes ranching and agriculture in
>the Amazon basin and has been doing so for decades -- as well as pushing
>the natives off their land and not recognizing any ownership rights to
>it.  The Brazilian government also puts in lines of communication and
>the like, reducing the costs even lower.  Absent that government
>intervention abd recognize the natives' right to property in the region
>then, chances are, there'd be a lot less farming and ranching in the
>Amazon basin.

I wasn't aware of the subsidies, but I've been following the displacement of the Amazonian basin natives in the news. I'd always assumed that the governments policies on the latter drove the deforestation in absence of anything else (i.e. push the subsistence farmers farther away from civilization, and then use the cleared land for large scale agriculture - at least the land that is still arable after the slash-and-burn.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Feb 14 04:38:46 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 20:38:46 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Twins born from 12-year-old embryos
In-Reply-To: <402C1DD5.72EFED4B@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040213203056.043f1340@mail.earthlink.net>

At 04:44 PM 2/12/04 -0800, Johnius wrote:

>Twins born from 12-year-old embryos
>----------
>   [Ananova]
>"An Israeli women has given birth to healthy twins from 12-year-old frozen
>embryos.It is the world's longest period of freezing before a successful
>pregnancy, her fertility doctor has claimed." (02/04/04)
>http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_862677.html

This is very good news.  But the solo egg is still not strong enough.  Here 
is a different take on the freezing of eggs alone:

"The technique has its critics. From a technical perspective, IVF expert 
Professor Lord Robert Winston warned that there could be dangers in the 
technique. "Work in mice has shown that chromosomes which carry the genes 
can be broken up by egg freezing," he said. From a moral perspective, Nuala 
Scarisbrick, trustee of the charity Life, commented that "the whole idea 
makes babies seem like a commodity, something for when it is convenient, 
when a woman sees a suitable window in her life, when she has saved up 
enough money." And from a parenting perspective, wrote Sue Arnold in the 
Independent, being an older mother is no fun." ~ Guardian, Oct 11; BBC, Oct 
11; Telegraph (UK), Oct 12; Independent, Oct 12

This view puts the field of biotechnology for infertility or freezing 
embryos shows a narrow line of thinking in some segments of society, but 
not most thank goodness.

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More

----------
President, Extropy Institute
Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit ? on the Internet ?February 15-29, 2004
About the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org.summitabout.htm
Register for the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org.membership.htm
Your  generous donation of $15.00 will go toward producing the deliverables 
of the VP Summit and your name will be added to the list of supporters for 
Vital Progress.
----------
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From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 14 02:48:32 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:48:32 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Twins born from 12-year-old embryos
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040213203056.043f1340@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000b01c3f2a5$0896c4d0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

"An Israeli woman has given birth to healthy twins from 12-year-old
frozen 
embryos....

"The technique has its critics...Nuala Scarisbrick...commented that "the
whole idea makes babies seem like a commodity, something for when it is
convenient, when a woman sees a suitable window in her life, when she
has saved up enough money."

 
 
So let us propose this alternative to Ms. Scarsibrick: Babies are a
commodity for when it is inconvenient, for when a woman has no
suitable window in her life and for when she has not saved sufficient 
money.
 
Or all three.  That should fix everything, should it not, Ms.
Scarsibrick?
 
 
 
 " And from a parenting perspective, wrote Sue Arnold in the
Independent, being an older mother is no fun."
 
 
Then by all means, do not do it.
 
Oy vey, people say the dumbest things.

 
spike
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From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sat Feb 14 06:45:04 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:45:04 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nano Meme
References: <20040213222633.2256.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3f2c6$14633c00$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

A nice light op-ed on the continuing propagation of the "nano" meme
through pop culture.

http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?section_id=76&document_id=7430

RE



From extropy at audry2.com  Sat Feb 14 16:30:55 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:30:55 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f1ac$1f8e6340$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net> (message from
	Russell Evermore on Thu, 12 Feb 2004 13:06:45 -0800)
Message-ID: <200402141630.i1EGUtH17441@igor.synonet.com>


Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> writes:

> > Actually only the metaphysical belief is strictly necessary for
> > something to be a religion.
> 
> Interesting, so a child who believes a magical fat man with a white
> beard drops down a chimney every Dec.24 is following a religion by
> this definition.

Yes. For as long as the children believe.

> Why use words at all if they are going to be watered
> down to absurdity.

I don't see any absurdity. Neither do the Seventh Day Adventists and
others who see Santa as heresy.

> > > The world's five major religions all have aspects of tolerance.
> >
> > The Muslims given the choice to convert or die during the crusades
> > might have something to say about that, but I'll let it pass.
> 
> Well since you didn't let it pass at all

Point taken 8-)

> I will again point out the value of at least aiming for some sort of
> precision in language. You do see the word "have" in the statement
> you objected to? Yet you take that to read "have always had."

OK, so lets pick an example in the present tense. There are
significant number of people who claim to be Christians and point to
biblical instructions to persecute homosexuals. Are these people not
practicing a religion? Is Christianity therefore not a religion?

> > > Can an ideology that is xenophobic to all that are different be
> > > considered a religion?
> >
> > Sure, if God says so.
> 
> Well since the author is mainly addressing non-wahhabis "God" probably
> doesn't say so.

The audience's God may not say so, but as long as they acknowledge
that the Wahhabis believe that their God does say so then they must
also acknowledge that Wahhabism is a religion.

> And what's your "hidden" agenda?

I didn't think it was hidden, but for the record: I don't like
theocracy, especially stealth theocracy.

Major


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Sat Feb 14 17:47:34 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 10:47:34 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (TLC-Mission) Re: Atomic Veterans
Message-ID: <402E5F36.7A852C42@mindspring.com>

That's ok, I hear that a lot. I'll post a page for you on the site and on
the What's New page. Below are some of the atmospheric tests that took place
at NTS during your duty. One of the videos I have show a great scene of
fellows removing the filters as you described. The Atmospheric confrence
noted on the What's New page has a poster of a B-57 at Christmas Island
(1962) turning to approach the cloud for samples. That scene is in another
video I have.

Below are some addresses where you can get your radiation dose from your
film badge and times and places of your military. Other addresses can give
you lots of info about the missions flown during your time of service.

Some of the Atomic Weathermen were also at Chanute and have some stories
posted in the Wetokian section of my website.
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/wetokian
My girlfriend had some of her AF training (maintenance) at Chanute.

9) For Operation Dominic II, the period July 7, 1962, through August 15, 1962:
Event name         Date              Location
Little Feller II 07/07/62              NTS.
Johnie Boy       07/11/62              NTS.
Small Boy        07/14/62              NTS.
Little Feller I  07/17/62              NTS.

(20) For Operation Plowshare, the period July 6, 1962, through
July 7, 1962, covering Project Sedan

U2's were doing the secret overflights of the Soviets and probably others
but had to stop after the Gary Powers shoot down.

>

Portland Oregon Atomic Veterans
Atomic Veterans History Project
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets
-------------------------------------
The Wetokian Website
Harold Wainscott's website of the Weathermen at Eniwetok during Ivy, Castle
and Hardtack.
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/wetokian
----------------------------------------
Department of Justice (DOJ) - 
http://www.usdoj.gov/civil/torts/const/reca/                      
Radiation Exposure Compensation Act (RECA)
Or call at 1-800-729-RECP---(1-800-729-7327)
-------------------------------------------------
For Ionizing Radiation Register info and application go to:
http://www.va.gov/irad 
and http://www.appc1.va.gov/irad 
---------------------------------------------------
Call the Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) at (800) 462-3683, and 
ask for your medical and service records.
Defense Threat Reduction Agency
NSSN (NTPR Program)
6801 Telegraph Road
Alexandria, VA  22310-3398
--------------------------------------------------
Request military service records 
No charge for veteran or family member. Be sure to state relationship when
writing:

National Personnel Record Center (NPRC),
Organizational Records Section, ATTN: [Branch of Service], 9700 Page
Avenue, St. Louis, MO 63132-5100
Phone number: 314-538-4141 or 314-538-4218
http://vetrecs.archives.gov

-------------------------------------------------------
Write to this address to locate members of your military unit or ship who
served with you at the atomic tests. Be sure to include the year and location.

Chief, Human Risk and Technology Branch
Systems Survivability Division
Nuclear Support and Operations Directorate
Defense Threat Reduction Agency
45045 Aviation Drive
Dulles, Virginia 20166-7517

    When you write, tell them the name of the ship or military unit in which
you served, and that you wish to know how many current addresses they have
on file for your unit or ship, and their rules for forwarding correspondence
to those men they have in their files, and how long after you send blind
letters to DTRA for mailing, how much time will it take to send your letters
out.  Also, when you send the letters out it is a good idea to include a
stamped envelope addressed to you.
-------------------------------------------------- 
The address below is the DOE in Las Vegas, where Atomic Veterans and
survivors can write for the "Request For Radiation Exposure History Form 192"  

Callers can also contact the Department of Energy Nevada Operations Office
(DOE/NV) Freedom of Information and Privacy Acts Officer (FOIA/PA),
Darwin Morgan at 702-295-3521, for the Form and associated documents.  [for
example,
blank affidavits for surviving relatives or estate executors seeking
records].

You must include: Social Security Number, Military
Service Number and Copy of a Picture ID such as a Drivers License w/picture.

Requesters can write to them at:

The United States Department Of Energy
Nevada Operations Office
FOIA/PA
P.O. Box 98518
Las Vegas, NV 89193-8518

-- or write to the Dosimetry Division (operated by Bechtel Nevada)
for the Form(s) at:
Dosimetry Research Project
Bechtel Nevada
P.O. Box 98521
Las Vegas, NV 89195-0100  

-------------------------------------

National Veterans Legal Services Program
http://www.nvlsp.org/nvlsp/welcome.htm
-------------------------------------------
The Veterans Consortium Pro Bono Program provides: free attorneys to
veterans and
their qualifying family members who have an appeal pending at the U.S. Court of
Appeals for Veterans Claims (Court).
http://www.vetsprobono.org/
-----------------------------------------
 
Unit records: Historical records for military units may be requested from
the following offices:

     Army:
     U.S. Army Center for Military History
     Building 35
     103 3rd Avenue
     Fort McNair
     Washington, DC 20319-5058 

     Navy:
     (for Deck Logs 1942-1961)
     Textual Reference Branch, Archives II
     National Archives & Records Admin.
     8601 Adelphi Road
     College Park, MD 20740-6001 

     The Modern Military Branch, National 
     Archives and Records Administration, 
     8601 Adelphi Road 
     College Park, MD 20740-6001 
     301-713-7250 
     Has custody of the deck logs from 1 January 1941 through 1970,
     http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq13-1.htm 



     (for Deck Logs 1962 and later)
     Naval Historical Center (DL)
     Washington Navy Yard
     Washington, DC 20374-0571 

     Air Force:
     Air Force History Support Office
     (AFHSO)
     170 Luke Avenue, Suite 400
     Bolling Air Force Base
     Washington, DC 20332-5113 

     Marine Corps:
     Marine Corps Historical Center
     Washington Navy Yard
     Washington, DC 20374 

For records for both Navy and Marine Corps
Officer-in-Charge
Navy Environmental Health Center Detachment
Naval Dosimetry Center
Bethesda, MD  20889-5614
301-245-0142

-----------------------------------

Atomic Veterans:  
Search these government "Openness" databases for information about your
atomic duty. Browse around, learn how to use them. You paid for them.
Hit the "Search Buttons" and type in keywords such as: your ship, unit, shot
name, commander, test series. etc.

HREX Search Engine
http://hrex.dis.anl.gov
----------------------
National Technical Information Service (NTIS)
http://www.dtra.mil/td/ntpr/td_ntprvol.html
Download the Official History books on some of the tests.
-----------------------------------
OpenNet Declassified Information Database (V2)
http://www.osti.gov/waisgate/opennet.new.html
You can find some good info here and order by email. .25 per page.
---------------------
IHP Marshall Islands Program
http://tis-nt.eh.doe.gov/ihp/marsh/marshall.htm
You have to know and use .pdf format for this.
This database has excellent Pacific test information.
http://worf.eh.doe.gov/
----------------------------------------------------
Information for obtaining Navy Ship Crew Lists
http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq13-1.htm
----------------------------------------------------
Address for Navy ship histories.
Department of the Navy
Officer in Charge
Naval Sea Systems Command Detachment
Navy Inactive Fleet
Bldg. 8Y. St. Juliens Creek Annex
Portsmouth, Virginia 23702-5002
---------------------------------
For Photos of ships:
U.S. Naval Institute:
The Professional Society of the Sea Services 
http://www.usni.org/
--------------------------------
National Archives at College Park
Still picture Division
8601 Adelphi Road
College Park, MD 20740-6001

Phone  301 713 6625 x234
Fax 301 713 7436

Give them as much information on the vessel that you can.
An 8x10 cost about $13.95  plus postage.
------------------------------------------------
GIO (Genetically Impaired Offspring) Project & GIO Med History Questionnaire.
For further information please contact.
Dick Conant
2424 Venetian Way SW
Albuquerque, NM 87105-7236
Tp: 505-877-3707  Fx: 505-877-2119  e-m: rucon1 at juno.com
------------------------------------------------------
Here is the web address for Dr. John Gofman's work about the effects of low
dose radiation.  http://www.ratical.org/radiation/CNR
-------------------------------------------------
More scientists show that government radiation risk studies are too low.
Risk estimates of low-level ionizing radiation -Wolfgang Kohnlein
http://www.foe.arc.net.au/kohnlein/kohnpaper.html
-------------------------------------------------------
Dr J.Gould has excellent info at www.radiation.org
-------------------------------
Civilians: This database shows your dose of radioactive I-131, received from
the fallout from the tests at Nevada, by state and county.
http://www2.nci.nih.gov/


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From benboc at lineone.net  Sat Feb 14 20:12:49 2004
From: benboc at lineone.net (Ben Cunningham)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:12:49 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] languages
Message-ID: <002201c3f336$ebe2d1c0$8bd5e150@ibm300mx>

Spike wrote:
Most languages have words specifying the difference
between mother's parents and father's parents.  English
has only the generic grandmother and grandfather.  Big
omission.  Other curious holes in the language so obvious
that various dialects have attempted to patch the gap:

1.  you (plural)
2.  sheep (singular)
3.  Janet Jackson's boobs

etc. Other examples?

spike


I read recently that a native South American language (Tariana) has a
structure such that if you don't specify just *how* you know something that
you are talking about, you are lying. That would put the cat among the
pigeons. How would politicians cope, for starters? I imagine it would be
very useful for scientists, though.

BEN




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sat Feb 14 21:22:16 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:22:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] languages
In-Reply-To: <002201c3f336$ebe2d1c0$8bd5e150@ibm300mx>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402141247370.24696-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Ben Cunningham wrote:

> I read recently that a native South American language (Tariana) has a
> structure such that if you don't specify just *how* you know something that
> you are talking about, you are lying.

Ben, I am not sure this is certain (I am not a language specialist)
but there may be a native Russian language that has a similar character.
It might be the Udmurt language.  If I recall what I read properly
it had verb conjugations that required you to assert where knowledge
came from (e.g. I know from my personal experience, I heard it
from a family member I trust, I heard it from a friend that I trust,
I heard it from a 3rd party source, etc.)  The multiple verb conjugations
gave increasingly diminished reliability to the information, in large
part based on the number of levels of indirection.  Tariana sounds
a little more strict (because I don't think in the Russian language
that there was an assumption of lying) -- simply that one had a graded
scale with respect to how one should view the quality of the information.

But I would agree with anyone who would argue that a language structure
like either of these examples would change both scientific and
political debates.  Might also alter legal disputes significantly
as well.

It raises whole interesting questions regarding language and "intelligence".
What would happen if "thou shalt not lie" turned into "thou cannot lie".(*)

Robert

* Obvious redirects required to Asimov's Laws of Robotics and similar
sources.  And I'm also aware that it seems the "thou shalt not lie"
commandment has some significant problems with reinterpretation (from
"thou shalt not bear false witness" to "thou shalt not swear a false oath".)




From hibbert at mydruthers.com  Sun Feb 15 02:20:24 2004
From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:20:24 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <20040209124929.GQ15132@leitl.org>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402070815260.28394-100000@server.aeiveos.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402082032220.23704@imladris.surriel.com>	<4026ED8C.9010707@cox.net>
	<20040209124929.GQ15132@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <402ED768.5080306@mydruthers.com>

The place to go for Mars coverage is the Exploratorium's website.  My 
friend Paul Doherty is the chief scientist there, and his live webcasts 
(http://www.exploratorium.edu/mars/webcasts.html) on the Mars results 
are down to twice weekly.  (He was doing them daily at the beginning.) 
  The Exploratorium has a good collection of photos 
(http://qt.exploratorium.edu/photopost/index.php) downloaded from NASA. 
  They have access to some photos that NASA isn't handing out directly 
to the public.  The Exploratorium is posting everything they get right 
away.

NASA is apparently doling the information out slowly so their 
scientists have a chance to look at the most important data first.  If 
there are papers to be written based on the raw photos, the NASA 
scientists don't want to give them away without at least having someone 
peruse them first.

Chris
-- 
C. J. Cherryh, "Invader", on why we visit very old buildings:
       "A sense of age, of profound truths.  Respect for something
       hands made, that's stood through storms and wars and time.
       It persuades us that things we do may last and matter."

Chris Hibbert
hibbert at mydruthers.com
http://discuss.foresight.org/~hibbert




From support at imminst.org  Sun Feb 15 03:40:49 2004
From: support at imminst.org (support at imminst.org)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 21:40:49 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst Update
Message-ID: <402eea41171b8@imminst.org>

Immortality Institute ~ For Infinite Lifespans
Mission: end the blight of involuntary death

Chat: Brain Computer Interfacing
*******************
ImmInst Advisor and graduate student in the Lab 
for Neuroengineering at Georgia Tech in Atlanta, 
Peter Passaro joins members to chat about the latest 
developments in the merger of mind and machine

Chat Time: Sun. Feb. 15 @ 8PM Eastern
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=63&t=3034


Article: Politics of Uploading, Simulations & Singularities 
*******************
ImmInst member, Paul Hughes (planetp) explores possible 
scenarios on how advanced artificial intelligence may change 
our world.
http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=66&t=3097


Book Project: Final Cut-off - Feb 27
*******************
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=142&t=2276&st=0&#entry25149


Support: ImmInst 
*******************
http://www.imminst.org/become_imminst_fullmember




To be removed from all of our mailing lists, click here:
http://www.imminst.org/archive/mailinglists/mailinglists.php?p=mlist&rem=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb 15 13:07:34 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 05:07:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] LOVE: the science of it all
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402150450280.21338-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Well "The Economist" has published an article on the science
(and biochemistry) of Love.

I get a kick out of you
Feb 12th 2004
http://www.economist.com/printedition/PrinterFriendly.cfm?Story_ID=2424049
(or http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=2424049)

It is actually quite well written (though a bit long) and documents
how it appears love comes down to the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin.

It also speculates about the genotyping possibilities (to get the
different variations of the genes that produce the hormones or the
receptors for them).  So when that becomes cheap (probably within
the next decade), the life of single people gets really interesting.
Bars or restaurants will allow you to check the genotype of people
you are having a date with to determine whether they are naturally
biased for long term relationships or a one night stand.

Robert




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 17:59:19 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:59:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] PREDICT: Chinese WMD proliferation
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402150450280.21338-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040215175919.24365.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>

In the past some on this list have pooh-poohed my assertions that China
is the originator of the nuclear proliferation we are seeing in North
Korea and the muslim world today. Turns out I was right, as follows:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A42692-2004Feb14?language=printer

Libyan Arms Designs Traced Back to China 
Pakistanis Resold Chinese-Provided Plans 
By Joby Warrick and Peter Slevin
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, February 15, 2004; Page A01 

Investigators have discovered that the nuclear weapons designs obtained
by Libya through a Pakistani smuggling network originated in China,
exposing yet another link in a chain of proliferation that stretched
across the Middle East and Asia, according to government officials and
arms experts. 
 
The bomb designs and other papers turned over by Libya have yielded
dramatic evidence of China's long-suspected role in transferring
nuclear know-how to Pakistan in the early 1980s, they said. The Chinese
designs were later resold to Libya by a Pakistani-led trading network
that is now the focus of an expanding international probe, added the
officials and experts, who are based in the United States and Europe. 

The packet of documents, some of which included text in Chinese,
contained detailed, step-by-step instructions for assembling an
implosion-type nuclear bomb that could fit atop a large ballistic
missile. They also included technical instructions for manufacturing
components for the device, the officials and experts said. 

"It was just what you'd have on the factory floor. It tells you what
torque to use on the bolts and what glue to use on the parts," one
weapons expert who had reviewed the blueprints said in an interview. He
described the designs as "very, very old" but "very well engineered." 



=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sun Feb 15 21:38:16 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 13:38:16 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
References: <200402141630.i1EGUtH17441@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <000601c3f40c$05f78bc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>


> > Interesting, so a child who believes a magical fat man with a
white
> > beard drops down a chimney every Dec.24 is following a religion by
> > this definition.
>
> Yes. For as long as the children believe. (Major)
>
> > Why use words at all if they are going to be watered
> > down to absurdity.
>
> I don't see any absurdity. Neither do the Seventh Day Adventists and
> others who see Santa as heresy.

Ok, let's say I agree with you on this. So I grant Wahhabism (a
terrorist cult which fosters virulent anti-Americanism and luddism)
the "lofty" status of religion. In embattled America, The Bill of
Rights guarantees "freedom of religion" ergo in order to fight violent
anti-Americanism and luddism I must first fight The Bill of Rights!
Perhaps that should/could be done, I don't know, but I suspect the
clock has long since run out on that particular option.

Should I select the only viable option then and cheer Allah Akbar!?
http://muslim.jeeran.com/

> > > > The world's five major religions all have aspects of
tolerance.

> OK, so lets pick an example in the present tense. There are
> significant number of people who claim to be Christians and point to
> biblical instructions to persecute homosexuals. Are these people not
> practicing a religion? Is Christianity therefore not a religion?

*have aspects of tolerance* dang it!  Since I'm an Atheist, you'll get
absolutely no argument from me regarding the corresponding *aspects of
intolerance* to easily be found in Christian lore. HOWEVER Xtianity is
currently modulated by Science and Reason - check out the Christian
Science Monitor more often. Not so, Wahhabism. The Ko_an = handbook of
Jihadi justifications. At this late stage in the game, we can chat
about the perils of theocracy and Seventh Day Adventists till the cows
come home, but I'm reasonably certain we would be far better off
studying the intrinsic properties of ferrocrete, and the shielding
qualities of a mere 36 inches of soil.

Shake dreams from your hair my friends, the doctrine of "divide and
donquer" is alive and kicking.

http://www.iwchildren.org/unity.htm , Janet Jackson, OutKast

 http://www.liquidgeneration.com/poptoons/saddam_outkast.asp


http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=televisionNews&storyID=4358536 ,

And on and on it goes. I'm reasonably certain that after the next "big
thing" goes down, many of you will come to your senses and realize the
sheer magnitude of the human/transhuman problem we are facing. It
doesn't matter if Jerry Falwell seems a bit of a loon, next to a
Wahhabi/terrorist he might as we be a card-carrying PCR Popperian.
It's not as if we're looking sidways across time into the eyes of  a
man holding a bible, it's more like we're gazing down through time
into the glass-eyed stare of a man holding the MALLEUS MALEFICARUM.

Read the original post again. A dozen times if need be.




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 15 22:05:15 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:05:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
In-Reply-To: <000601c3f40c$05f78bc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040215220515.79833.qmail@web80402.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:
> Ok, let's say I agree with you on this. So I grant
> Wahhabism (a
> terrorist cult which fosters virulent
> anti-Americanism and luddism)
> the "lofty" status of religion. In embattled
> America, The Bill of
> Rights guarantees "freedom of religion"

For certain meanings of the phrase.  But not the one
you mean.  (Legal documents are notorious for
specifying *exactly* what they mean - to the point of
confusing those who just skim them instead of reading
more thoroughly than most people care to - for a
reason.  And the Bill of Rights is a legal document.)

> ergo in
> order to fight violent
> anti-Americanism and luddism I must first fight The
> Bill of Rights!

Not necessary.  One can define anti-social actions
and, to a limited extent, attitudes and outlaw them.
For example, while Congress can not pass a law against
religion itself, it is allowed to outlaw murder - even
if certain religions preach and condone murder.  The
test seems to be whether it's targeted at religion.

For instance, one can not ban crosses or crescent
moons per se, because one can not come up with reasons
that most people will believe for banning them other
than their religious affiliation.  However, a building
review committee could certainly refuse to approve a
building that had all load-bearing crosses replaced
with crescent moons, on the grounds that the latter
design would be structurally unsound and thus present
a safety hazard (regardless of the religion of the
people who happened to be in the building when it
crumbled, even if the building would be off-limits to
all but members of a certain faith).

Likewise, one could pass laws to prevent teaching, at
least in public schools, of "scientific" theories that
have long since been proven false such as creationism,
or at least to prevent their being presented as
equally likely as evolution given the evidence.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 15 22:50:59 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 14:50:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] GWOT: Out of focus
In-Reply-To: <000601c3f40c$05f78bc0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040215225059.51679.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:
> 
> > > Interesting, so a child who believes a magical fat man with a
> white
> > > beard drops down a chimney every Dec.24 is following a religion
> by
> > > this definition.
> >
> > Yes. For as long as the children believe. (Major)
> >
> > > Why use words at all if they are going to be watered
> > > down to absurdity.
> >
> > I don't see any absurdity. Neither do the Seventh Day Adventists
> and
> > others who see Santa as heresy.
> 
> Ok, let's say I agree with you on this. So I grant Wahhabism (a
> terrorist cult which fosters virulent anti-Americanism and luddism)
> the "lofty" status of religion. In embattled America, The Bill of
> Rights guarantees "freedom of religion" ergo in order to fight
> violent
> anti-Americanism and luddism I must first fight The Bill of Rights!
> Perhaps that should/could be done, I don't know, but I suspect the
> clock has long since run out on that particular option.

John Adams said something about the Constitution being wholly
inappropriate for a society which is not otherwise governed by a more
or less consistent morality.

Wahhabism is against Constitutional liberties, and using violence to
eliminate them. Because it does not advocate change within the self
described instruments of change in the Constitution, it cannot be
considered a 'freedom' that can be allowed.

The Bill of Rights does NOT promise freedom of religion. It only says
that the government shall not endorse one specific religion to the
detriment of others.

Religion is specifically in regards to the spiritual plane. It has no
place in government. Any religion which attempts to change that
Contitution by other than Constitutional means is an enemy of the
Constitution, and it is therefore your RESPONSIBILITY under the
constitution, as a citizen, to fight that religion.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Feb 15 23:05:12 2004
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 15:05:12 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Face Transplants
Message-ID: <003c01c3f418$2aefd8e0$6600a8c0@brainiac>

"Society may not be quite ready for the day when a dead person's face is
recycled for the living - but that day is coming...

... Faces are the most visible portion of human identities. They're how we
think of ourselves, how others recognize us. The possibility of altering
that identity so radically - a science-fiction plot device made real - could
make people recoil, perhaps eroding support for the operation.":

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?c=1&slug=face15&date=20040215&query=face+transplant

Cheers,
Olga





From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb 16 00:31:07 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:31:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402151610230.1040-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


It occurs to me (because I'm in a strange mood this
afternoon having watched a 12 car pile-up with one
car managing a triple flip in the Daytona 500 -- *What*
are these people thinking driving around at 180 MPH???
Lord is there material for whatever late night show
does "stupid human tricks"...  There are days when I
just want to throw in the towel with respect to humanity.)

Allright, rant aside, it looks as if by combining things
like human cloning capabilities (coming out of Korea) and
long term embryo preservation (coming out of Israel) that
one would now be able to produce embryos, harvest stem
cells, turn them into offspring, freeze the remaining
portions of those embryos and then allow them to mature
at some later date.  The net result being that the children
are much older than the parents.

Now that capability is *really* going to upset (overtorque)
a number of people once they figure it out.

Robert (sitting at his desk rubbing his hands and laughing
kind of wildly in a Mel Brooks kind of style...)




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Feb 16 00:57:20 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 16:57:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402151610230.1040-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040216005720.89460.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> It occurs to me (because I'm in a strange mood this
> afternoon having watched a 12 car pile-up with one
> car managing a triple flip in the Daytona 500 --
> *What*
> are these people thinking driving around at 180
> MPH???
> Lord is there material for whatever late night show
> does "stupid human tricks"...  There are days when I
> just want to throw in the towel with respect to
> humanity.)

Motivations are the same there as with any sport
(fame, prize money, et cetera) - but at least they do
not shun technological improvements, unlike many other
sports.

> Allright, rant aside, it looks as if by combining
> things
> like human cloning capabilities (coming out of
> Korea) and
> long term embryo preservation (coming out of Israel)
> that
> one would now be able to produce embryos, harvest
> stem
> cells, turn them into offspring, freeze the
> remaining
> portions of those embryos and then allow them to
> mature
> at some later date.  The net result being that the
> children
> are much older than the parents.

Two errors:

1. Reproductive cloning - taking an embryo all the
way to baby stage and possibly much beyond, to show
it has no defents - is far from what the Koreans have
demonstrated and were attempting.  Granted, it's
along the same path, but one would need to do a lot
of development to turn it into reality.

2. In a case like this, the "children" are more like
the twin siblings of the "parent" (singular), if they
come out at about the same time.  If they come out
much earlier, then socially, it would be the simple
reverse of the normal clone-child relationship to the
original: the elder is the parent; the younger, the
child.  No major disruption.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 01:41:34 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2004 17:41:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402151610230.1040-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040216014134.78924.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> 
> It occurs to me (because I'm in a strange mood this
> afternoon having watched a 12 car pile-up with one
> car managing a triple flip in the Daytona 500 -- *What*
> are these people thinking driving around at 180 MPH???
> Lord is there material for whatever late night show
> does "stupid human tricks"...  There are days when I
> just want to throw in the towel with respect to humanity.)

What? You think things are going to get MORE safe as we live longer?
Despite the suppositions of writers like Heinlein and Asimov, it
appears that people will elect higher risk activities as life
expectancy rises (just reported to be up to 77+ years in the US).

> 
> Allright, rant aside, it looks as if by combining things
> like human cloning capabilities (coming out of Korea) and
> long term embryo preservation (coming out of Israel) that
> one would now be able to produce embryos, harvest stem
> cells, turn them into offspring, freeze the remaining
> portions of those embryos and then allow them to mature
> at some later date.  The net result being that the children
> are much older than the parents.
> 
> Now that capability is *really* going to upset (overtorque)
> a number of people once they figure it out.

Nah, I'm not too worried. The protests will really start happening when
we reinstitute real gladiator games and start throwing the christians
to the lions.... ;)

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From amara at amara.com  Mon Feb 16 11:03:08 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:03:08 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
Message-ID: <p05100301bc5653a8f9c3@[150.146.134.133]>

Chris Hibbert <hibbert at mydruthers.com>:
>NASA is apparently doling the information out slowly so their
>scientists have a chance to look at the most important data first.
>If there are papers to be written based on the raw photos, the NASA
>scientists don't want to give them away without at least having
>someone peruse them first.


There's more to the reason than this. Usually astronomy datasets
involve huge amounts of 1) calibration 2) 'level one' processing
3) interpretation based on what one knows of the instrumental
characteristics.

To release raw data without someone or some people taking care
of these aspects is irresponsible and a waste of a lot of people's
time and money.

Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF),
Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR,
Roma, ITALIA     Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb 16 11:08:34 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 03:08:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <20040216005720.89460.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160248470.13826-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Sun, 15 Feb 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> Motivations are the same there as with any sport
> (fame, prize money, et cetera) - but at least they do
> not shun technological improvements, unlike many other
> sports.

Actually this isn't true -- I was surprised to learn that
NASCAR races seem to limit engine air intake so the max speed
is ~180MPH rather than ~230MPH.  This makes the races "somewhat"
safer (the car only rolls 3 times instead of 20 times when it
bites the dust) and makes the contest involve a little more
skill (racing effectively requires getting into the wind shadow
of the car in front of you) rather than being just a competition of
"brute force"  It is more like ice skating in the Olympics where
a reduction of air friction plays an important role.

With regard to:
> 1. Reproductive cloning ... [snip]

I'm reasonably certain you do not have to take an embryo
to the "baby" stage to harvest germ cells capable of forming
a subsequent generation.  So one just pickes off the cells
required from a developing embryo and allows them to produce
a clone (or a unique child if you can get both female and
male germ cells).

I think the amount of development required may be overestimated
now.  Scientists are being very conservative in papers and what
they tell the press and one has to consider how far we have
come in the last decade.

> 2. In a case like this, the "children" are more like
> the twin siblings of the "parent" (singular)

Only if you are using cloning as the reproductive method
rather than something like germ cell maturation and actual
fertilization, most probably allowing the fertilized cells
to produce the "child", while preserving the developing
embryo that was the source of the genetic material to be
developed into a "parent" at a later date.

Something I've never seen data on is how late one can freeze
developing blastula or embryo (rather than say eggs or sperm)
and still get functioning organisms from them upon reanimation.
And in any case the number is "soft" given improvements one might
expect in everything from antifreeze molecules to 21st Century Medicine's
vitrification processes.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough about this.
Robert




From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Mon Feb 16 11:49:51 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 12:49:51 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160248470.13826-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160248470.13826-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402161231390.25844@hercules>

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:

>
>On Sun, 15 Feb 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote:
>
>> Motivations are the same there as with any sport
>> (fame, prize money, et cetera) - but at least they do
>> not shun technological improvements, unlike many other
>> sports.
>
>Actually this isn't true -- I was surprised to learn that
>NASCAR races seem to limit engine air intake so the max speed
>is ~180MPH rather than ~230MPH.

Some limits on the cars' technical spec do not lead to refusing
improvements - on the contrary, they leads to new ways to attain the same
performance.

For example, F1 cars were once 1500 cc turbocharged. Turbo was forbidden,
and the limit raised to 3500 cc. Next year, the most powerful F1 cars were
around 500 HP (fairly low), thanks to the limits. In 2003, the most
powerful were about 800-850 HP, with a top speed of around 350 kph, more
than the turbo engines. A speed of 400-450 kph would be easily attainable
with today's technology using the same car design, if limits on the engine
were removed.

Some years ago, new limits on tyres were applied to make the cars "safer",
limiting the amount of lateral acceleration that they could provide and
forcing the cars to make turns more slowly. Now, after a few years, new
tyre materials are reversing that - cars can sustain more lateral
acceleration than ever: up to 4g in the fastest turns. The driver is
becoming the limiting factor here.

All those examples are just different ways of expressing "necessity is the
mother of invention". Limits are just a way of enforcing artificial
necessity :)

Alfio



From natasha at natasha.cc  Mon Feb 16 15:45:36 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 07:45:36 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Face Transplants
In-Reply-To: <003c01c3f418$2aefd8e0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040216073422.01d43e30@mail.earthlink.net>

At 03:05 PM 2/15/04 -0800, Olga wrote:
>"Society may not be quite ready for the day when a dead person's face is
>recycled for the living - but that day is coming...
>
>... Faces are the most visible portion of human identities. They're how we
>think of ourselves, how others recognize us. The possibility of altering
>that identity so radically - a science-fiction plot device made real - could
>make people recoil, perhaps eroding support for the operation.":

I was not able to read the article, but engineering faces is 
fascinating.  We will have to rethink and relearn how we "read" people's 
faces.  It is fairly easy to recognize a face that has had reconstruction 
or does have removable parts.  We would need the capability detect the 
seamless replaced faces, and another capability o go into the brain and see 
the lines of experience within the brain that had once been worn on the bio 
face.

N



Natasha Vita-More

----------
President, Extropy Institute
Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit ? on the Internet ?February 15-29, 2004
About the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org.summitabout.htm
Register for the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org.membership.htm
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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb 16 16:36:19 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:36:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: more news
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160829481.19995-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Well, interestlingly, it seems the SPAMers and machine hijackers
are getting increasingly more sophisticated (we have discussed
this before).

Here is a detailed analysis that documents 6 or more different
attempts to break into your machines from simply reading an
e-greeting card...
   http://www.tjhsst.edu/~agupta/ecard-hijack/

The details are very technical (but may interest the technical
people on the list).  Bottom line is in the Conclusion at the
end of the message:

"If you're still using Outlook and Internet Explorer, this is a good time
to find alternatives (I suggest FireFox and Thunderbird). Crackers and
spammers are getting more and more sophisticated, and are finding ways to
fool even experienced and skilled computer users."

Robert




From nanowave at shaw.ca  Mon Feb 16 19:36:20 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 11:36:20 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: more news
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160829481.19995-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Ohhhhhhhhh alright already! (I've already done some study on
Thunderbird)

But here's the thing. Why do I keep getting stuck on the notion that
IE and Outlook Express may simply "appear" more vulnerable because a
gajillon seething, anti-Microsoft, Gates bashing,
jealous-of-the-fact-a-geeky-nerd-actually-made-it-big, vandal
mentality hackers keep relentlessly attacking these products?

Yes I will switch, I'll switch dammit, but may my new platforms never
become overly popular, and may the creators of these products all look
like Mel Gibson and Tom Cruise, and may everyone else keep on using
Microsoft to keep this ugly hoard of orks otherwise occupied.

And come to think of it, America is coming under a similar kind of
attack, so maybe we should all just abandon that as well to search for
better security elsewhere - maybe Antarctica, or Mars.

-------end of high-pitched, squeaky, hysterical rant.........

RE

> "If you're still using Outlook and Internet Explorer, this is a good
time
> to find alternatives (I suggest FireFox and Thunderbird). Crackers
and
> spammers are getting more and more sophisticated, and are finding
ways to
> fool even experienced and skilled computer users."
>
> Robert
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From brentn at freeshell.org  Mon Feb 16 20:18:56 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:18:56 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <20040216014134.78924.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-5963B07E60BD11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/15/04 17:41) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Nah, I'm not too worried. The protests will really start happening when
>we reinstitute real gladiator games and start throwing the christians
>to the lions.... ;)

These days instead of lions, we have humanists. I think that's actually more entertaining, because you can see the same Christian get trounced again and again and again. :D  

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From brentn at freeshell.org  Mon Feb 16 20:20:36 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:20:36 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <402ED768.5080306@mydruthers.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-94E73C9A60BD11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/14/04 18:20) Chris Hibbert <hibbert at mydruthers.com> wrote:

>NASA is apparently doling the information out slowly so their 
>scientists have a chance to look at the most important data first.  If 
>there are papers to be written based on the raw photos, the NASA 
>scientists don't want to give them away without at least having someone 
>peruse them first.

And not only "their" scientists. We've been contacted about doing some processing work on the Mars photographs.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From brentn at freeshell.org  Mon Feb 16 20:59:12 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 15:59:12 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: more news
In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-F96A776760C211D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/16/04 11:36) Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:

>But here's the thing. Why do I keep getting stuck on the notion that
>IE and Outlook Express may simply "appear" more vulnerable because a
>gajillon seething, anti-Microsoft, Gates bashing,
>jealous-of-the-fact-a-geeky-nerd-actually-made-it-big, vandal
>mentality hackers keep relentlessly attacking these products?

If anything, the reason why IE and OE are relentless attacked is because they have -easily- exploited bugs, thus the barrier to entry for the crackers and virus writers is low, and more of them can play the game. To characterize the work of Nimda, SoBig, MyDoom, et al. as the work of "elite, MS-hating, Linux aficionados" is neither supported by the known facts of the cases nor does make sense considering the relatively poor engineering of the viruses themselves.

In small words: It doesn't take a genius to exploit MS's flaws, therefore a whole lot of people who aren't geniuses are doing so. Statistically, the odds are on their side. Infinite monkeys, yadda yadda.


>Yes I will switch, I'll switch dammit, but may my new platforms never
>become overly popular, and may the creators of these products all look
>like Mel Gibson and Tom Cruise, and may everyone else keep on using
>Microsoft to keep this ugly hoard of orks otherwise occupied.

That's bad logic, as Bruce Schneier has pointed out. While there are certainly more -desktop- systems that run Windows, there are more servers, with more valuable information on them, that run a Unix variant of some sort.  The payoff for cracking them is higher, so we should expect that more effort would be expended on those OSes than would otherwise be expected on the basis of installed base. Yet we still see more cracks on Windows boxen than Unix boxen. The appropriate conclusion to draw is that most Unix installs, either by design, by skill in administration, or even pure blind luck, are more secure than most Windows installs. 

For more information, see Schneier's book _Secrets and Lies_, paying attention to Chapter 8.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From spike66 at comcast.net  Mon Feb 16 21:13:46 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:13:46 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-5963B07E60BD11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
Message-ID: <000001c3f4d1$c46a7840$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

>  (2/15/04 17:41) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> >...The protests will really start happening when
> >we reinstitute real gladiator games and start throwing the christians
> >to the lions...


Speaking of protests, I am nearly ready to carry a
sign myself, something I have never done.  Yesterday
in San Francisco the mayor ordered that marriage licenses
be issued to gay couples.  As one might expect there was
a gathering of protestors, but as I saw them on
the news yesterday I found two things very disturbing.
First, they weren't protesting homosexual *marriage*
so much as they were protesting *homosexuality*.  Secondly,
most of the protestors appeared middle eastern, with the
head scarves and turbans.  I am tempted to take
up a sign telling them... well, what exactly?  The gay
marriage issue really isn't my battle, but as soon as
Muslim transplants start protesting *my* rights, that gets
my full and undivided.  If we start having significant
Muslim influence on our legal system in this country,
many of our rights and lifestyle freedoms could disappear.

This is one that the left wing doesn't handle effectively,
for it carries the notion that all cultures are valid,
and clearly homosexuality offends Muslim culture.  The
right wing isn't much help since it is so rabidly opposed to 
gay marriage, they fail to see the threat from having
Muslim influence on American policy.  I guess it is up to
the libertarians to fight this one, eh?  Thoughts?

spike




From eliasen at mindspring.com  Mon Feb 16 21:21:59 2004
From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 14:21:59 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-94E73C9A60BD11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
References: <r02010100-1032-94E73C9A60BD11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
Message-ID: <40313477.3070801@mindspring.com>


Brent Neal wrote:
>  (2/14/04 18:20) Chris Hibbert <hibbert at mydruthers.com> wrote:
> 
>>NASA is apparently doling the information out slowly so their 
>>scientists have a chance to look at the most important data first.  If 
>>there are papers to be written based on the raw photos, the NASA 
>>scientists don't want to give them away without at least having someone 
>>peruse them first.
> 
> And not only "their" scientists. We've been contacted about doing
> some processing work on the Mars photographs.

   Actually, almost all of the photos are released to the public almost
immediately.  Everyone, including me, can do their own work with them.  As far
as I know, the only difference between what the public gets and the purest
"raw" photos are mostly just contrast-stretching.  And they're almost always
published same-day.  Sure, it's hard to do pure science on uncalibrated or
contrast-stretched images, but as James Bell, the Pancam Payload Element Lead
for the mission states, it'll be several months before anybody properly does
the calibration work on all of the photos.

   Otherwise, I think NASA has done a great job of getting the photos out the
same day they're taken.

   Read the last comment on the site:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=30048

   He says,

   "Ultimately you are right that people will need the calibrated data to do
the color balancing correctly.  We are working on doing that and will
eventually get all those images out to the public using the NASA/JPL
"Planetary Image Atlas" web site.  It will take several months or more to get
the work done, however.  In the meantime, we thought it would be best to get
*something* out there, and so that's why we opted to get the raw data out
fast, even though it's still raw.  The team has taken some criticism for this
within the planetary science community because not many past missions have
adopted such an open-data policy."

   The last quote from Dr. Bell's latest email is in my opinion the best. On
the topic of the team taking some criticism for giving the public access to
such raw images:

    "Let them whine, I say. People want and deserve to see the pictures as
soon as we do."

-- 
  Alan Eliasen                 | "You cannot reason a person out of a
  eliasen at mindspring.com       |  position he did not reason himself
  http://futureboy.homeip.net/ |  into in the first place."
                               |     --Jonathan Swift



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 16 21:35:37 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:35:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <000001c3f4d1$c46a7840$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040216213537.49227.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> I found two things very disturbing.
> First, they weren't protesting homosexual *marriage*
> so much as they were protesting *homosexuality*.  Secondly,
> most of the protestors appeared middle eastern, with the
> head scarves and turbans.  I am tempted to take
> up a sign telling them... well, what exactly?  The gay
> marriage issue really isn't my battle, but as soon as
> Muslim transplants start protesting *my* rights, that gets
> my full and undivided.  

Shouldn't be surprised. The muslim community claims as many immigrants
in the US as there are jews, and look at the degree of influence they
have (no conspiracy theories needed). The Saudis have been in charge of
appointing every imam in the US (goodness knows the Iranians have not
been welcome) and every one is a wahhabist. Very few sufi or salafist
or other types of muslim imams remain.

These imams are part and parcel of the religious conservative radicals
involved in the culture war here. They are really no different from the
skinhead movement in fomenting hate.

> If we start having significant
> Muslim influence on our legal system in this country,
> many of our rights and lifestyle freedoms could disappear.

Personally, if they want Lansing, Michigan, they can have it. They can
call it the Unfree Scarf Project if they want to...

> 
> This is one that the left wing doesn't handle effectively,
> for it carries the notion that all cultures are valid,
> and clearly homosexuality offends Muslim culture.  The
> right wing isn't much help since it is so rabidly opposed to 
> gay marriage, they fail to see the threat from having
> Muslim influence on American policy.  I guess it is up to
> the libertarians to fight this one, eh?  Thoughts?

Well, a group of FSP members who have formed the Free Town Project,
which will locate in Grafton, NH, are planning on holding Civil Onion
ceremonies on the eve of the summer solstice, presided over by the
local Justice of the Piece, and sponsored by Porcupines Eating Tasty Onions.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From brentn at freeshell.org  Mon Feb 16 21:37:39 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:37:39 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <000001c3f4d1$c46a7840$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-58730BBE60C811D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/16/04 13:13) Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> Secondly,
>most of the protestors appeared middle eastern, with the
>head scarves and turbans.  I am tempted to take
>up a sign telling them... well, what exactly? 


While I am and have been a vociferous advocate for giving gay couples (as well as extended family arrangements) the same legal rights as the "straight male, straight female" couples*, I will point out that a turban does not a Muslim make. :) Sikh males are religiously obligated to wear turbans (as well as carry a ceremonial dagger called a kirpan. The kirpan has caused quite a "religious freedom" issue recently in Canada, btw.)


 * Actually, I'm a proponent of deleting the entire concept of marriage from the law books and letting it handled under corporate and contract law, but that's a rant for another time.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Mon Feb 16 21:45:11 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:45:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160248470.13826-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040216214511.88275.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Feb 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote:
> > 1. Reproductive cloning ... [snip]
> 
> I'm reasonably certain you do not have to take an
> embryo
> to the "baby" stage to harvest germ cells capable of
> forming
> a subsequent generation.  So one just pickes off the
> cells
> required from a developing embryo and allows them to
> produce
> a clone (or a unique child if you can get both
> female and
> male germ cells).
> 
> I think the amount of development required may be
> overestimated
> now.  Scientists are being very conservative in
> papers and what
> they tell the press and one has to consider how far
> we have
> come in the last decade.

You have a point, but...in animals taken to full
term, certain clones have had defects the parent did
not.  These defects aren't even detectable until years
after birth...but would be unacceptable for human
clones, who would be doomed to deformity unless these
defects are reversed.

*That*, not any religious line, is the main reason why
scientists have been opposing reproductive cloning *at
cloning's current stage of development*.  Now, if we
could develop cloning such that these defects went
away, and prove it in animal testing, there would be a
lot more people willing to accept reproductive
cloning.  The path to this end leads through extensive
development of theraputic cloning.

> > 2. In a case like this, the "children" are more
> like
> > the twin siblings of the "parent" (singular)
> 
> Only if you are using cloning as the reproductive
> method
> rather than something like germ cell maturation and
> actual
> fertilization, most probably allowing the fertilized
> cells
> to produce the "child", while preserving the
> developing
> embryo that was the source of the genetic material
> to be
> developed into a "parent" at a later date.

I fail to see a relevant difference between these two
approaches.  Socially, the roles of "parent", "child",
and "sibling" go by fairly non-technical rules, and
it's a social torque, not a technical one, you're
saying the luddites will experience.  (Almost by
definition, luddites don't experience technical
torques.)


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb 16 22:11:29 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:11:29 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: more news
In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160829481.19995-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040216221129.GU18983@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 16, 2004 at 11:36:20AM -0800, Russell Evermore wrote:

> Ohhhhhhhhh alright already! (I've already done some study on
> Thunderbird)

It's not necessarily a good MUA for you. I'd spend some time checking out the
alternatives.
 
> But here's the thing. Why do I keep getting stuck on the notion that
> IE and Outlook Express may simply "appear" more vulnerable because a
> gajillon seething, anti-Microsoft, Gates bashing,
> jealous-of-the-fact-a-geeky-nerd-actually-made-it-big, vandal
> mentality hackers keep relentlessly attacking these products?

It's remarkable how many things you can get wrong in a single sentence. IE
and Outlook/Outlook Express (which are deeply intertwingled, as both use the
same rendering engine for rich formats -- yes, this is one of the reasons why
rich formats are so evil) are 1) very buggy 2) being shipped by a vendor who
doesn't care about fixing known bugs; both of which is very well documented.

They're not being more attacked than the open source alternatives. The
opposite is in fact the case: far more h4x0r d00dZ write exploits against open
source systems. This is both because these are free, ship with quality tools,
and have a hacker culture, which crackers and script kiddies leech upon. And
come with source, exposing their soft white hairy underbelly. If get the source for a
closed-source *insecure* system leaked, you'll get the worst of all worlds.
Honest people will avoid looking at the code, lest they become tainted.
Blackhats will just snarf it up, and swap vulnerabilities through the
grapevine (the ones you see strut are just showing off, so they can found
their little security consulting rackets). You've seen the result of 
leaked code: 2.5 years old, a part of sources which is supposed to be safe; 
and we can already execute arbitrary code with a custom BMP image. 
Yeah, IE rendering engine, preview pane, you
know the drill. And that's just full disclosure wannabees. You never release
a good vulnerability, you just exploit it carefully, so that you never show
up on the radar.

They're not going to become vulnerable; the very opposite. A vulnerability
without exploit will never get fixed. You will only get a new patch when the
the latest exploit is already making the rounds. 
 
> Yes I will switch, I'll switch dammit, but may my new platforms never
> become overly popular, and may the creators of these products all look

Try 'diversity'. OS X doesn't have a good security school either, but you'll
see less h4x0rs who can write PowerPC shellcode, simply because Macs are too
expensive for them. And of course if address space is filled up with
heterogenous systems (which, incidentally, are more secure by default, simply
because Windows is such an awful piece of work) you'll get less fulminant
growth kinetics, once an worm starts cruising the local few-hop 'hood. And of
course only a fraction of the infrastructure will get taken out, instead of
blighting the entire acres over acres of monoculture cash crop.

> like Mel Gibson and Tom Cruise, and may everyone else keep on using
> Microsoft to keep this ugly hoard of orks otherwise occupied.

No, they actually should do their worst. And be a lot better than we're
getting now, because the h4x0r/script kiddie of today has no talent. It takes
more talent to exploit more hardened systems.
 
> And come to think of it, America is coming under a similar kind of

U.S. is just another country in North America, which is a yet another
continent. Relatively important still, but becoming less so by the minute, as
the rest of the world goes through with the programme.

> attack, so maybe we should all just abandon that as well to search for
> better security elsewhere - maybe Antarctica, or Mars.

Try artificial immune systems, along with natural diversity. It's all the
rage in the ivory tower, these days. 

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From fauxever at sprynet.com  Tue Feb 17 04:09:55 2004
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2004 20:09:55 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Face Transplants
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040216073422.01d43e30@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001301c3f50b$e74574c0$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: Natasha Vita-More 
  >>At 03:05 PM 2/15/04 -0800, Olga wrote:
  >>"Society may not be quite ready for the day when a dead person's face is
  recycled for the living - but that day is coming...

  >>... Faces are the most visible portion of human identities. They're how we
  think of ourselves, how others recognize us. The possibility of altering
  that identity so radically - a science-fiction plot device made real - could
  make people recoil, perhaps eroding support for the operation.":

  >I was not able to read the article, but engineering faces is fascinating.  We will have to rethink and relearn how we "read" people's faces.  It is fairly easy to recognize a face that has had reconstruction or does have removable parts.  We would need the capability detect the seamless replaced faces, and another capability to go into the brain and see the lines of experience within the brain that had once been worn on the bio face.
  Presently, recycling (dead people's) faces would be a stop-gap measure.  Better scientific solutions will undoubtedly come along.  

  What's interesting to me about this is that it's one more medical/engineering innovation that will exemply to the general public the practicality of science and technology over trying to bribe their deity-of-choice.  Also, it may inspire another facet in the debate about who we are vs. how we look (or whom we look like?).

  Olga


  baby step for the general public to grapple with the questions of who we are and what we are and how to keep ourselves as intact as possible in a practical way.     
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From gpmap at runbox.com  Tue Feb 17 06:19:55 2004
From: gpmap at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:19:55 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <000001c3f4d1$c46a7840$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <MAELIJOHMBHKKJLFFKDGCEKMCAAA.gpmap@runbox.com>

I don't think Muslim culture is more against homosexuality than Christian
culture. If you refer to "the threat from having
religious influence on American policy" then I agree.

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Spike
Sent: lunes, 16 de febrero de 2004 22:14
To: 'ExI chat list'
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
...This is one that the left wing doesn't handle effectively,
for it carries the notion that all cultures are valid,
and clearly homosexuality offends Muslim culture.  The
right wing isn't much help since it is so rabidly opposed to
gay marriage, they fail to see the threat from having
Muslim influence on American policy.  I guess it is up to
the libertarians to fight this one, eh?  Thoughts?
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.587 / Virus Database: 371 - Release Date: 12/02/2004



From amara at amara.com  Tue Feb 17 11:23:54 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:23:54 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: where are we?
Message-ID: <p05100301bc57a8559076@[150.146.134.133]>


Alan Eliasen quoting Jim Bell:
>He says,
>"Ultimately you are right that people will need the calibrated data to do
>the color balancing correctly. We are working on doing that and will
>eventually get all those images out to the public using the NASA/JPL
>"Planetary Image Atlas" web site. It will take several months or more to get
>the work done, however. In the meantime, we thought it would be best to get
>*something* out there, and so that's why we opted to get the raw data out
>fast, even though it's still raw."

OK, I don't disagree with this, and I do see what Jim is trying to do,
but beware (I would say, more, *don't*) trying to do science with raw
astronomy data that is not calibrated, processed  etc. (Camera images might
be one of the  few astronomy raw data products in which _something_
can be seen, so you are lucky.) Enjoy the pictures, in other words.

Amara
-- 

***********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD
INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario,
Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA
tel: +39-06-4993-4375       |fax:  +39-06-4993-4383
Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it  | http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/dustgroup/~graps
************************************************************************
I'M SIGNIFICANT!...screamed the dust speck. -- Calvin


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Tue Feb 17 13:10:44 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:10:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Muscle enhancing gene therapy
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402170427300.11537-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Well, I knew this was going to happen.  Scientits have announced
a gene therapy that improves muscle strength.  It appears to
be relatively simple as it involving only a single gene.  Interestingly
one could consider this gene therapy to be an anti-aging treatment
(because muscle strength tends to decline with age).

See:
Muscle building gene therapy might build super athletes, scientist warns
By Paul Recer, Associated Press, 2/16/2004 16:20
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/047/sports/Muscle_building_gene_therapy_mP.shtml
or
http://www.boston.com/dailynews/047/sports/Muscle_building_gene_therapy_m:.shtml

The quote that I love is the one from the World Anti-Doping Agency...

"'Sport is and should be an effort to see how far you can go with your
 natural talents honed by exercise and skill perfection,' he (Richard
 Pound) said, and not by manipulating genes to build muscle."

What he fails to acknowledge is that this implies that sports are inherently
elitist and as a result discriminatory because some people are bound to have
better "natural talents" due to their genetic heritage.  For example a
strict non-gene therapy policy by WADA would prevent someone with a disease
like muscular dystrophy from ever playing competitive sports!  It would
also eliminate someone taking a gene therapy to combat aging from playing
competitive sports.  So one could put WADA into what we have referred to
as the "pro-deathist camp".

The only way I think this can be resolved is by developing a handicapping
system (such as that used in horse racing) for each of the various
sports.  This would level the genetic playing field so one is
simply dealing with "exercise and skill perfection".

Feel free to pass this message along to other forums.
Robert

Note: for those who wants to be politically active, the contact page
for WADA is:
http://www.wada-ama.org/en/t2.asp?p=41643



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Tue Feb 17 15:15:21 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:15:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <20040216214511.88275.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402170642580.13885-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Adrian Tymes, commenting on my comments:

> You have a point, but...in animals taken to full
> term, certain clones have had defects the parent did
> not.  These defects aren't even detectable until years
> after birth...but would be unacceptable for human
> clones, who would be doomed to deformity unless these
> defects are reversed.

No argument.  There are two reasons for this.

The first is the microdeletions (or microinsertions) that
take place as a result of DNA double strand breaks and the
fact that most cloning experiments are using older cells.
The only way out of this is to be able to do genomic
sequencing of the cloned cells (you don't need the
whole genome -- just the 3-10% of it that is important)
to know the genome is in reasonable condition.
This is probably a decade or so away technology to
do it at a cost that couples/governments can afford.

The second problem is the loss of proper gene imprinting
(turning specific genes off) that is normally done during
the gamete production process.  We have the sequences for
the enzymes that manage this in the gene databases but I don't
think we know how to make them work at this point.

But if one bars reproductive cloning on the basis of
the probable increase in genetic defects one rides
into a bioethics swamp.

If you adopt a position that it is illegal to allow
deformed children to be born -- then don't you have to
bar the (informed) birth of children with Down's Syndrome,
Cystic Fibrosis, Muscular Dystrophy and any of the other
5000+ known genetic diseases?  I see little difference
between the legal prohibition of reproductive cloning and
the legal prohibition of sex between parents who may be
known carriers of a disease (or requirements that they
perform genetic testing and abort embryos with genetic
defects).  It is then but a small step to prohibiting
reproduction by people with *any* genetic defect
(and we all probably have 5-10 of them).
You are on a *very* slippery slope.

Robert




From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 15:24:53 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:24:53 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
Message-ID: <Law9-F102cvJY4WocwA0000727d@hotmail.com>

>From: "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" <gpmap at runbox.com>
>To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
>Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:19:55 +0100
>
>I don't think Muslim culture is more against homosexuality than Christian
>culture. If you refer to "the threat from having
>religious influence on American policy" then I agree.

I disagree, while some of the "most civilized" Muslim nations still carry 
the death penalty for homosexuality (Egypt, Saudi Arabia) your statements 
abov is incorrect.

I've yet to see any major Christian church condone killing homosexuals. I've 
heard some bastardly statements like "they will burn in hell" or "God will 
judge them", but that is a far cry from having them murdered.

BAL

_________________________________________________________________
Take off on a romantic weekend or a family adventure to these great U.S. 
locations. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx



From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Feb 17 15:54:35 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 07:54:35 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <MAELIJOHMBHKKJLFFKDGCEKMCAAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3f56e$58070a90$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Giu1i0 Pri5c0
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
> 
> 
> I don't think Muslim culture is more against homosexuality 
> than Christian
> culture. If you refer to "the threat from having
> religious influence on American policy" then I agree.


Ja, this protest probably drew in christian
fundamentalists too, but these are rare in
the San Francisco area.

Im not sure however.  Christian culture has become
somewhat progressive on this matter, with the
episcopalians recognizing an openly gay minister.
This attitude is not universal of course.  Somehow
I doubt that the Muslim world is wresting with 
that issue these days.

As a side note, several of the Muslim protesters
carried signs reading "Even the animals do not
have same-sex relations."  Anyone who has been
around animals enough knows that this is not true.
I don't know why that particular meme would find
resonance with that set.

spike




From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 16:00:49 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:00:49 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
References: <000001c3f4d1$c46a7840$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE37uD5nlLFNf0000522b@hotmail.com>

This is really no different than the other laws that have been passed
concerning behavior. I'm surprised people can still smoke in their own homes
or cars in California.
What surprises me is that there isn;t a hefty "gay marriage tax". Isn't this
the normal way of attacking a non-sanctioned behavior?
I think we are probably seeing new lines being drawn. The right and left
have long fought each other on a variety of fronts which at best has
prevented anything real from being done at all, and at worst has at least
had the effect of watering down legislation. This is going to change over
the next few years though as new technologies come up that scare the crap
out of narrow minded right-wing religious freaks as well as the mind-numb
tree-hugging technology hating luddites on the left. With the extremes of
the right and left aimed at us, I think it would be wise for us to keep a
clear head and try to grab on to the center. I'm not sure that actual
protesting would accomplish this since most people see protesters as being
extremists (I don;t know this as a fact. I am basing this on past
conversations with various people in my life)

Let those people be stupid. The licenses are being handed out. That is
progress. The people who don;t like it will make fools of themselves. Maybe
they will even quote scripture while being interviewed.

One thing I have been trying to do is to change the views of religious
people while leaving their religion mostly intact. If you look over the long
run, religions evolve over time. I dont; know of any alrge organized
religions that still support the idea of an Earth centered universe. The
people realized it was wrong and the religions had to change to keep
members. One thing I have tried to do is point out that God never meant for
the bible to be taken literally. Jonah was not in a whale being digested, 2
species of everything were not in the Ark, creation took longer than 6 days,
and of course, immortality is not evil. In fact, God created us in his image
and that means were were meant to become immortal.

We are never going to tear down religion, whatever type it is. Protesting
only makes you loook irrational and angry. We have to be smarter than them.
We have to change things from the inside. Maybe I should go study to become
a preacher! There's a thought!





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 3:13 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage


> >  (2/15/04 17:41) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >...The protests will really start happening when
> > >we reinstitute real gladiator games and start throwing the christians
> > >to the lions...
>
>
> Speaking of protests, I am nearly ready to carry a
> sign myself, something I have never done.  Yesterday
> in San Francisco the mayor ordered that marriage licenses
> be issued to gay couples.  As one might expect there was
> a gathering of protestors, but as I saw them on
> the news yesterday I found two things very disturbing.
> First, they weren't protesting homosexual *marriage*
> so much as they were protesting *homosexuality*.  Secondly,
> most of the protestors appeared middle eastern, with the
> head scarves and turbans.  I am tempted to take
> up a sign telling them... well, what exactly?  The gay
> marriage issue really isn't my battle, but as soon as
> Muslim transplants start protesting *my* rights, that gets
> my full and undivided.  If we start having significant
> Muslim influence on our legal system in this country,
> many of our rights and lifestyle freedoms could disappear.
>
> This is one that the left wing doesn't handle effectively,
> for it carries the notion that all cultures are valid,
> and clearly homosexuality offends Muslim culture.  The
> right wing isn't much help since it is so rabidly opposed to
> gay marriage, they fail to see the threat from having
> Muslim influence on American policy.  I guess it is up to
> the libertarians to fight this one, eh?  Thoughts?
>
> spike
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


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From namacdon at ole.augie.edu  Tue Feb 17 16:17:03 2004
From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:17:03 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
Message-ID: <1077034623.b50e8d80namacdon@ole.augie.edu>


"These days instead of lions, we have humanists. I think that's actually more entertaining, because you can see the same Christian get trounced again and again and again. :D"

That's funny- the Christians seem to trounce me again and again.  Perhaps that's the curse of being at a Lutheran college in South Dakota, and badly outnumbered...

-Nicq MacDonald




From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Feb 17 16:21:04 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 08:21:04 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE37uD5nlLFNf0000522b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000401c3f572$0a963980$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Kevin Freels
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
> 
> This is really no different than the other laws that have been passed
> concerning behavior. I'm surprised people can still smoke in 
> their own homes or cars in California...

Oh, so you haven't heard?  {8^D

> What surprises me is that there isn;t a hefty "gay marriage tax"...

There is.  If they file as a married couple, they will pay the
same marriage tax as the rest of us.  If both make good
money, it is a high price indeed.

> Isn't this the normal way of attacking a non-sanctioned behavior?

Ja.  {8-[

> ...The licenses are being handed out. That is
> progress. The people who don;t like it will make fools of 
> themselves. Maybe they will even quote scripture while being
interviewed.

That would be interesting.  Sooner or later one of them
will say that the bible calls for the death penalty for
homosexuals, perhaps citing the Sodom and Gomorrah story.
That should persuade the masses that these protesters
are wacko and possibly dangerous.

> ... Maybe I should go study to become
> a preacher! There's a thought!

I tried that.  Didn't work.  {8-]  spike



From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Feb 17 17:04:31 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 12:04:31 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <1077034623.b50e8d80namacdon@ole.augie.edu>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-5AAA58AA616B11D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/17/04 10:17) Nicholas Anthony MacDonald <namacdon at ole.augie.edu> wrote:

>That's funny- the Christians seem to trounce me again and again.  Perhaps that's the curse of being at a Lutheran college in South 
>Dakota, and badly outnumbered...

There are probably ample resources available to you in your school library to "improve your game."  At a Lutheran college, if it is any good, they will still have the works of at least a few humanist philosophers (I started with Russell, but YMMV).  Your local UU church, if you have one, will have other resources, potentially including a humanists discussion group. Worth checking out, if it still exists.  Then there is the internet. In the early 90s, Usenet had a couple of good groups, including soc.atheism and talk.philosophy.humanism, but I've not been on Usenet since 1996 so I can't vouch for the current quality. 

Then of course, there is the school of hard knocks. :) Arguably the best way to learn, but hell on the self-esteem until you "get game." ;)


B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 17:48:23 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:48:23 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
References: <000801c3f56e$58070a90$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE30088mEompQ00066dfc@hotmail.com>

>
> As a side note, several of the Muslim protesters
> carried signs reading "Even the animals do not
> have same-sex relations."  Anyone who has been
> around animals enough knows that this is not true.
> I don't know why that particular meme would find
> resonance with that set.
>

That meme has been around a long time. It was shortly after Darwin's
"Origin" when the church started espousing all these ways that humans were
different than animals. The idea was to emphasize how unique we humans are,
therefore reinforcing the "creation" myth. Many other religions followed
suit.


Of course if you really go down that road, you could say that war,
homosexuality, and random violence are all the hallmarks of God's creation
of the perfect being in His image and therfore they are all good things! :-)

There are other silly misconceptions out there that are similar such as,
"Humans are the only creatures that kill for reasons other than food"
although you and I both know that a domestic housecat kills for no other
reason than fun. (After killing a mouse, it will go on to eat it's food from
the bowl unless it has been taught to eat it's kill)

I once made a long list of these silly ideas. I tried to find it, but it has
gone missing. It had all sorts of common misconceptions in it such as
"Humans are the only primate to mate face to face" and "Humans are the only
species that wage war", both of which are wrong. I hope I can find it. I
wrote it years ago as research for a possible book, but I never had the time
to actually get started on it. If I locate it, I'll pass it along. That was
about 8 computers ago, so I'll be lucky to find it. Maybe it is on an old
ZIP disk or something.






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From brentn at freeshell.org  Tue Feb 17 18:06:35 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:06:35 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE30088mEompQ00066dfc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-06F6420B617411D895B7000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/17/04 11:48) Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:

>That meme has been around a long time. It was shortly after Darwin's
>"Origin" when the church started espousing all these ways that humans were
>different than animals. The idea was to emphasize how unique we humans are,
>therefore reinforcing the "creation" myth. Many other religions followed
>suit.


The whole "animal kingdom" set of arguments in the homosexuality debate are a constant source of frustration and amusement to me.  The anti-gay religious camp will blithely argue that homosexuality is wrong because heterosexuality is "natural."  (despite, of course, ample evidence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom)  Then, they'll turn around and get angry because evolution implies that man is essentially an animal, descended from apes. "Not so," they cry, "We were created by God!"

Add that on top of the fact that the ethics of civil rights are a sociocultural construct, and have fsck-all to do with the "natural realm," and eventually the whole thing looks like an evil Monty Python sketch, acted out by people on crack.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 18:42:32 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 10:42:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE30088mEompQ00066dfc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040217184232.67164.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > As a side note, several of the Muslim protesters
> > carried signs reading "Even the animals do not
> > have same-sex relations."  Anyone who has been
> > around animals enough knows that this is not true.
> > I don't know why that particular meme would find
> > resonance with that set.

Its a double edged meme. If you protest that animals do in fact have
same sex relations, then they say the purpose of man is to rise above
his animal instincts, or they attack you personally and ask how much
time you spend watching animal sex tapes.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From gpmap at runbox.com  Tue Feb 17 19:02:32 2004
From: gpmap at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:02:32 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Michael Talbot's books
Message-ID: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBKECOCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>

Michael Talbot is the author of "Beyond the Quantum", "The Holographic
Universe", and "Mysticism and the New Physics". The titles, especially the
last two, look too much like New Age nonsense, and I would normally not buy
this kind of books. But somehow I got the first one a few years ago, and, I
had to concede that it is a very well written book: Talbot is a good,
intelligent writer who has taken the time to read and try to understand his
subject. So I bought the second book, of which I think the same: a very,
very good book. I promised to myself that I would buy other books by the
same author, yesterday I did a search and found the third book in the list
above, which I just bought on Amazon. Unfortunately I also learned that
Michael Talbot died of leukemia in 1992, at 39.
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From gpmap at runbox.com  Tue Feb 17 19:08:44 2004
From: gpmap at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:08:44 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <20040217184232.67164.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBCECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>

But again, what does this have to do with Muslims? Right wing Christian
fundamentalists say the same things and worse. They also act instead than
only talking, for example by beating gay couples and burning their houses.
As Our Lord Jesus Christ said, "don't look at the straw in your brother's
eye..."

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey
Sent: 17 February 2004 19:43
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gay marriage



--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > As a side note, several of the Muslim protesters
> > carried signs reading "Even the animals do not
> > have same-sex relations."  Anyone who has been
> > around animals enough knows that this is not true.
> > I don't know why that particular meme would find
> > resonance with that set.

Its a double edged meme. If you protest that animals do in fact have
same sex relations, then they say the purpose of man is to rise above
his animal instincts, or they attack you personally and ask how much
time you spend watching animal sex tapes.
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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 17 19:31:09 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:31:09 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] HUMOR: Protecting the brain
Message-ID: <Law10-OE55MhMyOajxi0001fd79@hotmail.com>


Why didn't I get a patent on this while I had the chance? :-p

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html#BUILD/





Kevin Freels


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From jef at jefallbright.net  Tue Feb 17 19:44:43 2004
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:44:43 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE30088mEompQ00066dfc@hotmail.com>
References: <000801c3f56e$58070a90$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<Law10-OE30088mEompQ00066dfc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40326F2B.8030008@jefallbright.net>

Kevin Freels wrote:

>I once made a long list of these silly ideas. I tried to find it, but it has
>gone missing. It had all sorts of common misconceptions in it such as
>"Humans are the only primate to mate face to face" and "Humans are the only
>species that wage war", both of which are wrong. I hope I can find it. I
>wrote it years ago as research for a possible book, but I never had the time
>to actually get started on it. If I locate it, I'll pass it along. That was
>about 8 computers ago, so I'll be lucky to find it. Maybe it is on an old
>ZIP disk or something.
>
>  
>
If you can find and share that list (or similar) it would appreciated.  
In my opinion, helping the spread of rational thinking, awareness of our 
selves and our place in the big picture , counts among the most extropic 
and highly leveraged efforts we can make.

It's just beginning, and we've just been given the tools.   Let's not 
underestimate the power of a multitude of minds, with a panoply of 
perspectives, working together for some common goals.

- Jef
http://www.jefallbright.net


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 17 22:49:21 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:49:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBCECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <20040217224921.18062.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> But again, what does this have to do with Muslims? Right wing
> Christian
> fundamentalists say the same things and worse. They also act instead
> than
> only talking, for example by beating gay couples and burning their
> houses.
> As Our Lord Jesus Christ said, "don't look at the straw in your
> brother's
> eye..."

What it has to do with muslims is that they allegedly come here to 'be
americans', but immediately set about trying to change America, just as
others come here from europe and immediately start donating to anti-gun
groups. It is dishonest immigration.

Now, it is reasonable, though, if they are protesting changes others
are trying to enact. On that there is no real protest from myself. My
only beef is with the fact that Mecca is using relgion to subvert the
US. Just because muslims don't have a Pope, doesn't mean they aren't
quite capable of holding other loyalties than to the US. Given muslim
precepts about religious control of the state, I might even say that
muslim immigration should not be allowed.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 00:33:01 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 16:33:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] >H: Real life superheroes
Message-ID: <20040218003301.51220.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>

He doesn't leap tall buildings with a single bound, but Angle-Grinder
Man will free your car from The Boot in a jiffy. He prowls the night
streets of Britain, rescuing hapless motorists from the grip of the
State. His outfit is well done, too...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3112670.stm

still another:
http://in.news.yahoo.com/030502/137/23zb7.html

The Brown Cape apparently focuses on rescuing pedestrians from youth
gangs...

Now that there's more than one superhero in Britain, they are going to
organize a union local of the Justice League, go on strike for better wages....

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html


From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 18 00:38:45 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:38:45 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
Message-ID: <4032B415.2090507@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:44 pm Jef Allbright wrote:
> In my opinion, helping the spread of rational thinking, awareness of
> our selves and our place in the big picture , counts among the most
> extropic and highly leveraged efforts we can make.
>

Very admirable sentiments, but it is a bit like trying to stop the tide
coming in.

Misconceptions are fundamental to humans. It is not called 'Human error'
for nothing.

Name any subject and I guarantee that someone has written a book or
instruction sheet about the common errors encountered.
Ten common faults of Web site design
The twelve most common writing errors.
The top ten mathematical errors.
The top ten management mistakes.
The ten worst dot-com mistakes, and on and on and on.
But nobody pays any attention and the same errors get committed again
and again.

Human life is about people continually making mistake after mistake.
Car crashes, plane crashes, law suits, medical errors, military errors,
political errors, manufacturing errors, software errors, cooking errors,
decorating errors, relationship errors, everything involving humans will
get some damage attached - accidently, of course.

Half the population are making mistakes and the other half are helping
them pick up the pieces.  Then they swop places.

Read some of the skeptics web sites to get some idea of the millions of
people who believe complete and utter rubbish every day of their lives.

Look in your daily paper for the big daily mistakes, then talk to your
friends for the smaller daily mistakes.

Humans are fallible. The best we can hope for is some damage limitation.

And now I'm heading off to create havoc in the kitchen - ;)

BillK




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Feb 18 01:16:37 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 17:16:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <4032B415.2090507@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040218011637.6179.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- BillK <bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:44 pm Jef Allbright wrote:
> > In my opinion, helping the spread of rational
> thinking, awareness of
> > our selves and our place in the big picture ,
> counts among the most
> > extropic and highly leveraged efforts we can make.
> 
> Very admirable sentiments, but it is a bit like
> trying to stop the tide
> coming in.
> 
> Misconceptions are fundamental to humans. It is not
> called 'Human error'
> for nothing.

[snip]

> Humans are fallible. The best we can hope for is
> some damage limitation.

Maybe we'll never stop it all, but perhaps we can
reduce its rate, either permanently or at least for a
very long time?


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 18 01:56:20 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:56:20 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
References: <20040218011637.6179.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE22R9Xvw53OY00012b09@hotmail.com>

> 
> Maybe we'll never stop it all, but perhaps we can
> reduce its rate, either permanently or at least for a
> very long time?
> _______________________________________________
>

You can't stop a tide, but you can channel it and/or harvest it's energy!
Is the stopping of a tide itself a possible misconception?






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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 18 02:01:57 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:01:57 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
References: <000801c3f56e$58070a90$6501a8c0@SHELLY><Law10-OE30088mEompQ00066dfc@hotmail.com>
	<40326F2B.8030008@jefallbright.net>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE49MYk5XYA4I000185d1@hotmail.com>

I can't seem to find it here. I did locate some old zip disks, but my zip
drive is on the fritz. I'll have to borrow one from a friend of mine. I was
using the zips for backups before the CDRW was reasonably priced. That was
right around the same time that I put the list together. I also remember
uploading it as an HTML document to a free server. Maybe fortunecity. I'll
have to check that as well.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jef Allbright" <jef at jefallbright.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 1:44 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions


> Kevin Freels wrote:
>
> >I once made a long list of these silly ideas. I tried to find it, but it
has
> >gone missing. It had all sorts of common misconceptions in it such as
> >"Humans are the only primate to mate face to face" and "Humans are the
only
> >species that wage war", both of which are wrong. I hope I can find it. I
> >wrote it years ago as research for a possible book, but I never had the
time
> >to actually get started on it. If I locate it, I'll pass it along. That
was
> >about 8 computers ago, so I'll be lucky to find it. Maybe it is on an old
> >ZIP disk or something.
> >
> >
> >
> If you can find and share that list (or similar) it would appreciated.
> In my opinion, helping the spread of rational thinking, awareness of our
> selves and our place in the big picture , counts among the most extropic
> and highly leveraged efforts we can make.
>
> It's just beginning, and we've just been given the tools.   Let's not
> underestimate the power of a multitude of minds, with a panoply of
> perspectives, working together for some common goals.
>
> - Jef
> http://www.jefallbright.net
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Wed Feb 18 04:54:53 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:54:53 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Time Travel Fund[tm]
Message-ID: <4032F01D.CCA7E092@mindspring.com>

http://www.timetravelfund.com/
[Morlocks aide, how would YOU like to visit, even live hundreds of years in
the future? There may be a way, and that is the purpoe of The Time Travel Fund.]

Terry


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 18 05:51:35 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:51:35 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <20040217184232.67164.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3f5e3$456a46c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Mike Lorrey
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
> > >
> > > As a side note, several of the Muslim protesters
> > > carried signs reading "Even the animals do not
> > > have same-sex relations."  Anyone who has been
> > > around animals enough knows that this is not true.
> 
> Its a double edged meme. If you protest that animals do in fact have
> same sex relations, then they say the purpose of man is to rise above
> his animal instincts, or they attack you personally and ask how much
> time you spend watching animal sex tapes.  Mike Lorrey

Ja, well Im ok with that.  As it turns out, my observation
was not from a videotape but rather from two different
housepets, a dog and a cat, both female, that would mount 
other females in an apparent attempt to mate.  I have heard
that bonobo females are well known to do each other, early
and often.  One of my college professors did a thesis on
gay seagulls, again promenent among females.

This leads me to the following speculation.  If humans were
perfectly free from all social pressures and the knowledge
of what is required for conception, perhaps homosexuality
would be more common in females than males.

My argument for gay marriage is based on none of this however.
As Shelly and I approach our 20th anniversary next month, I
declare without reserve that marriage is an institution that 
has worked out so very well for me, bringing so much joy and
happiness into my own life.  Perhaps I give credit to the 
institution which should go to my wife.  Be that as it may, 
the sense of security and comfort that I have derived from my 
own marriage is something I would never wish to deny any couple 
who wanted to do likewise.

spike  



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Feb 18 06:07:17 2004
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:07:17 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Time Travel Fund[tm]
References: <4032F01D.CCA7E092@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <001401c3f5e5$766740a0$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

> http://www.timetravelfund.com/
> [Morlocks aide, how would YOU like to visit, even live hundreds of
> years in the future? There may be a way, and that is the purpoe of The
> Time Travel Fund.]
> 
> Terry

This seems bizarre to me. Are you seriously asking people to pay $10
dollars for this 'service' ?

Brett Paatsch




From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 18 06:04:46 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:04:46 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE49MYk5XYA4I000185d1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3f5e5$1c3531f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Kevin Freels

> >"Humans are the only primate to mate face to face"

Chimps *occasionally* do it that way, but it doesn't seem
to be their favorite.

 
> > "Humans are the species that wage war"

Both chimps and gorillas have been known to do something
like a gang rumble, where members team up and fight another
team.  But the best example is in ants.  If you have ever
seen two ant colonies going at each other, well if that 
isn't a war I've never seen one.

I've seen other beasts besides housecats that kill just
for fun: if coyotes get into a sheep fold, they will often
kill many or all the sheep, while devouring only one or
sometimes none of them.  I once had a doberman that would
slay any beast it could find, animals that were neither a 
threat nor a meal.  This I can only interpret as killing 
for fun.  I've heard that dolphins can be mean sons-a-bitches
too, but no firsthand knowledge.

spike




From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Wed Feb 18 06:22:20 2004
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 22:22:20 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Near Death Experiences: a scientific approach
Message-ID: <4033049C.EE7CB31@Genius.UCSD.edu>

Hi all,

  A friend of mine pointed me towards some work that seems
to support the notion of separability of 'mind' and 'body'
or brain (e.g., near-death experience, mind-life-after-death).
I personally don't buy it--I think that 'mind' is what brains
do, but maybe there's something here that non-dualists need 
to answer?

 http://www.datadiwan.de/SciMedNet/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

  My friend wrote:
"he addresses most if not all the objections given against 
NDEs being produced outside of the brain. [...]
scientific analysis of whether life and consciousness go on 
after death might just settle that question.

What do the extropians think of this separation of mind and
body? It would certainly affect their 'uploading' idea."

  Further work might be found by searching on 
"Peter Fenwick" and "Sam Parnia" ... but beware that many
of the hits will probably be on certifiable crackpots...

Johnius


From gpmap at runbox.com  Wed Feb 18 06:39:27 2004
From: gpmap at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:39:27 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
Message-ID: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBGECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>

You pay 10 dollars today into the Time Travel Fund, in a few hundred years
the fund is very rich due to compound interest, so as soon as time travel
technology is developed the fund administrators will pay whoever has this
capability to "rescue" you from the present and bring you into the future
world, where presumably you will live forever as an immortal posthuman.
"The concept is that one day, it may be possible for people living far in
the future to retrieve you from your current frame of reference (their
past - your present) and bring you into the future (their present - your
future)... We establish a fund in current time. You make a small
contribution to the fund, and in a few hundred years that small amount grows
to a very large amount. From that fund, moneys will be taken and used to
retrieve you, perhaps seconds after you join, perhaps even moments before
your recorded death, perhaps some other point in your lifetime. Further, the
fund may even pay to have you "rejuvenated" medically (assuming this is
scientifically possible at that time,) and support you financially for a
number of years. (Note: Retrieving you just before the moment of death is
just one possible scenario, but one that would avoid any Star Trek(TM) type
paradoxes. There are an unlimited number of other possibilities, and we do
not know what they will do, we can only make reasonably informed guesses.)"
I do not think this is a serious initiative, but I believe the core concept
is sound. Even if operational time travel technology (in the sense of going
to the past) is never developed, the technology to acquire information from
the past could be developed someday. Then it would be possible "anticipating
the Omega Point": fetching people from their time and bring them into their
future. Of course the question is, why should they want to do it, and why
should they want to revive you of all people. Offering to pay seems a
reasonable way to motivate them.
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From nanowave at shaw.ca  Wed Feb 18 07:25:38 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:25:38 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
References: <000801c3f56e$58070a90$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<Law10-OE30088mEompQ00066dfc@hotmail.com>
	<40326F2B.8030008@jefallbright.net>
	<LAW10-OE49MYk5XYA4I000185d1@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301c3f5f0$69c0b920$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

I know it may seem obvious in retrospect, but if you can remember a
number of specific keywords, you might try google. If it was online at
on time, maybe someone copied it, or google added it to its voluminous
cache. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if it popped up at the very top
of your returns.

I've almost been tempted to do searches along the lines of  "where car
keys" or "where Russ's wallet" but I've never had the  guts to do so
because it would be just too creepy to have some pdf document pop up
with: "In Crack Sofa"

Ok maybe not so creepy if I happened to be running one of those sexy
and chatty AI avatar packages I've read a little about.

RE

> I can't seem to find it here. I did locate some old zip disks, but
my zip
> drive is on the fritz. I'll have to borrow one from a friend of
mine. I was
> using the zips for backups before the CDRW was reasonably priced.
That was
> right around the same time that I put the list together. I also
remember
> uploading it as an HTML document to a free server. Maybe
fortunecity. I'll
> have to check that as well.



From nanowave at shaw.ca  Wed Feb 18 07:38:56 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:38:56 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Time Travel Fund[tm]
References: <4032F01D.CCA7E092@mindspring.com>
	<001401c3f5e5$766740a0$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <003901c3f5f2$43cceca0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

Of course it works Brett, trust me, I've used this service hundreds of
times ;-)


> > http://www.timetravelfund.com/
> > [Morlocks aide, how would YOU like to visit, even live hundreds of
> > years in the future? There may be a way, and that is the purpoe of
The
> > Time Travel Fund.]
> >
> > Terry
>
> This seems bizarre to me. Are you seriously asking people to pay $10
> dollars for this 'service' ?
>
> Brett Paatsch



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Feb 18 08:56:00 2004
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 19:56:00 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
References: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBGECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c3f5fd$07f2f5c0$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: 

> ...the technology to acquire information from the past could be
> developed someday. Then it would be possible "anticipating the
> Omega Point": fetching people from their time and bring them
> into their future. 

You see bringing information from the past as (a) possible, and 
(b) functionally akin to bringing a person into their future?

Do you think information and/or patterns have an objective 
existence or do you think that they exist only in the perception of 
the perceiver?

Brett Paatsch




From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Thu Feb 19 04:40:44 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:40:44 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
References: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBGECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
	<004f01c3f5fd$07f2f5c0$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <003701c3f6a2$8d443c20$29ee17cb@renegade>

I agree with Tipler on the principle of using information about the past
to construct quantum splits of dying bodies, one in the past and one in
the present. (Similarly I agree with the principle of using general or
consensually obtained private information about past physical environments,
as assessed by an independent neutral arbitrator akin to Elizier's systems
operation AI/Singularity supervisor.)

I do not see any form of time travel which results in change in the
past as ethical - without the informed consent of every single being which
would be affected (i.e. the entire timeline forward from that point) - and
seeking such consent is in itself an intervention in the period from the
past to
the present.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund


> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote:
>
> > ...the technology to acquire information from the past could be
> > developed someday. Then it would be possible "anticipating the
> > Omega Point": fetching people from their time and bring them
> > into their future.
>
>




From avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au  Thu Feb 19 04:49:54 2004
From: avatar at renegadeclothing.com.au (Avatar Polymorph)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:49:54 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Diamonds are forever
Message-ID: <006201c3f6a3$d2fb69e0$29ee17cb@renegade>

Biggest diamond out of this world
Stephen Cauchi, The Age 18 Feb 2003

Confirming what the Beatles always knew, astronomers have actually found a
diamond in the sky - directly above Australia. It is the biggest known
diamond in the universe, in fact. According to American astronomers at the
Harvard-Smithsonian Centre for Astrophysics, a white dwarf star in the
constellation of Centaurus, next to the Southern Cross, has been found to
have a 3000-kilometre-wide core of crystallised carbon, or diamond. It
weighs 2.27 thousand trillion trillion tonnes - that's 10 billion trillion
trillion carats, or a 1 followed by 34 zeroes. The biggest earthly jewel is
one of the British crown jewels, the 530-carat Star of Africa.
However, this cosmic jewel is hidden beneath a layer of hydrogen and helium
gases, with the diamond core making up between 50 and 90 per cent of its
mass. "It's the mother of all diamonds," said astronomer Travis Metcalfe,
who led the team of researchers that studied the star. "Some people refer to
it as Lucy, in a tribute to the Beatles song Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds."
Known officially as BPM 37093, the star confirms a theory, first raised in
the early 1960s, that cool white dwarfs should have a diamond core. A white
dwarf is what small stars, those up to about the size of the sun, turn into
when they run out of nuclear fuel and die. The intense pressures at the
heart of such dead stars compress the carbon into diamond. But confirming
this theory has only been possible recently. Lucy "pulsates", which means
its light fluctuates at regular intervals. "By measuring these pulsations,
we were able to study the hidden interior of the white dwarf, just like
seismograph measurements of earthquakes allow geologists to study the
interior of the Earth," Dr Metcalfe said. "We figured that the carbon
interior of this white dwarf has solidified to form the galaxy's largest
diamond." This means that other white dwarfs must also have diamond cores.
Our own sun will become a white dwarf when it dies in 5 billion years. Two
billion years after that, its ember core will crystallise as well, leaving a
giant diamond in the centre of our solar system. Vince Ford, a research
officer at Mount Stromlo Observatory near Canberra, said astronomers,
including Australians, had observed the star for more than eight years. The
star is about 50 light years away (500 trillion kilometres) - a fair
distance as far as stars go. This means it is about 400 times too faint to
see with the naked eye.

[? not sure 50 light years is that far with the Milky Way's diameter c.
100,000 light years - Avatar
Perhaps a controlled process could lead to using the star diamond as a kind
of chip...]




From nanowave at shaw.ca  Wed Feb 18 09:56:44 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 01:56:44 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mel's "Passion" movie
References: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBGECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
	<004f01c3f5fd$07f2f5c0$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <000301c3f605$8475fc20$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

The Israeil Insider takes down Mel Gibson early with the Ipon.

http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enPage=ViewsPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Article%5El3320&enZone=Views&enVersion=0&

(Of course we all know MG is really a double agent for the W_______S
and that all is well in their little world where DAC remains BAU)

RE




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Feb 18 12:41:43 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 04:41:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <000001c3f5e5$1c3531f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402180437170.7244-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Tue, 17 Feb 2004, Spike wrote:

> I've heard that dolphins can be mean sons-a-bitches
> too, but no firsthand knowledge.

I've heard stories to this effect as well -- but it seems
more like it is not so much being mean as being playful.
E.g., lets play with this baby shark or baby fish, etc.
Though I think dolphins may be prone to gang-rape.
Whether you view this as reasonable animal behavior
or object to it remains an unresolved moral question
in my mind.

Robert




From major at audry2.com  Wed Feb 18 14:43:39 2004
From: major at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:43:39 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402180437170.7244-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	(bradbury@aeiveos.com)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402180437170.7244-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <200402181443.i1IEhdE01407@igor.synonet.com>


"Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> writes:

> > I've heard that dolphins can be mean sons-a-bitches
> > too, but no firsthand knowledge.
> 
> I've heard stories to this effect as well -- but it seems
> more like it is not so much being mean as being playful.
> E.g., lets play with this baby shark or baby fish, etc.

A is not likely to be well regarded by B if B regards A as food.
A is not likely to be well regarded by B if B responds as one might
expect when A regards B's young as food.

Fish (including sharks) are regarded as food by dolphins and sharks
probably threaten dolphin's young (though I do not know this for a
fact).

Sharks fear dolphins (for good reason).

For the rest of us dolphins are good neighbors given to playful pranks
like tossing you off your surfboard but definitely not "mean
sons-a-bitches".

Major



From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 18 14:27:07 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:27:07 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
References: <000001c3f5e3$456a46c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE60kVeNpIhm700026633@hotmail.com>


  I have heard
> that bonobo females are well known to do each other, early
> and often.  

Yes. The males also practice masturbation and will also fondle each other.



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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From jef at jefallbright.net  Wed Feb 18 14:52:09 2004
From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 06:52:09 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE60kVeNpIhm700026633@hotmail.com>
References: <000001c3f5e3$456a46c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<LAW10-OE60kVeNpIhm700026633@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <40337C19.2030905@jefallbright.net>

Kevin Freels wrote:

>   I have heard
> 
>>that bonobo females are well known to do each other, early
>>and often.  
> 
> 
> Yes. The males also practice masturbation and will also fondle each other.


I was boating in the Santa Barbara channel last weekend and we came 
across two pods of literally hundreds of playful dolphins.  They raced 
toward the boat as we approached and then swam alongside, clearly for 
the enjoyment of it. My understanding is that dolphins copulate even 
when the female is not in estrus, "for the social bonding benefits", and 
sometimes up to seven times in a day.

- Jef


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 18 15:22:57 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:22:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPAM: more news
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160829481.19995-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
	<20040216221129.GU18983@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <c1000h$qfm$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> Try 'diversity'. OS X doesn't have a good security school either, but you'll
> see less h4x0rs who can write PowerPC shellcode, simply because Macs are too
> expensive for them. And of course if address space is filled up with
> heterogenous systems (which, incidentally, are more secure by default, simply
> because Windows is such an awful piece of work) you'll get less fulminant
> growth kinetics, once an worm starts cruising the local few-hop 'hood.

Which should be so obvious, I don't understand why it still needs
to be pointed out.  If some blackhat today discovers another buffer
overflow in the MUA I use, and spams the net with an exploit, what
platforms will he target you think?  The FreeBSD/alpha box I happen
to read my mail on will not be on his list.

> Try artificial immune systems, along with natural diversity. It's all the
> rage in the ivory tower, these days. 

Funky catchphrases aside, it would be helpful if more operating
system vendors adopted the safety net technologies pioneered (not
necessarily invented, but first widely deployed) by OpenBSD, such
as ProPolice stack protection; mutual exclusion of writable and
executable memory regions ("W^X"); shared library address randomization;
early dropping of privileges in subsystems that only require special
privileges at startup; and privilege separation in those that require
ongoing special privileges for some operations.

The recent XFree86 font vulnerability was never expoitable on
OpenBSD.  ProPolice catches the buffer overflow, and even without
ProPolice you wouldn't have gained additional privileges since the
X server uses privilege separation and the vulnerability was in the
unprivileged part.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 15:25:08 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:25:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <000001c3f5e3$456a46c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040218152508.46746.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> > Mike Lorrey
> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
> > > >
> > > > As a side note, several of the Muslim protesters
> > > > carried signs reading "Even the animals do not
> > > > have same-sex relations."  Anyone who has been
> > > > around animals enough knows that this is not true.
> > 
> > Its a double edged meme. If you protest that animals do in fact
> have
> > same sex relations, then they say the purpose of man is to rise
> above
> > his animal instincts, or they attack you personally and ask how
> much
> > time you spend watching animal sex tapes.  Mike Lorrey
> 
> Ja, well Im ok with that.  As it turns out, my observation
> was not from a videotape but rather from two different
> housepets, a dog and a cat, both female, that would mount 
> other females in an apparent attempt to mate.  I have heard
> that bonobo females are well known to do each other, early
> and often.  One of my college professors did a thesis on
> gay seagulls, again promenent among females.

What is unique about humans, allegedly, is that observations of animal
same sex mounting is identified by animal behaviorists as a means of
asserting dominance in the pecking order, i.e. exerting force, i.e.
rape, or simulated rape.

This could lead one to conclude that human homosexual sex is not about
love at all, but violence or simulated violence for asserting
dominance, i.e. outside the protections of a loving and equal marriage relationship.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 18 15:30:44 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:30:44 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Near Death Experiences: a scientific approach
References: <4033049C.EE7CB31@Genius.UCSD.edu>
Message-ID: <c100f4$qfm$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Johnius <Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu> wrote:

> but maybe there's something here that non-dualists need 
> to answer?

No.

> What do the extropians think of this separation of mind and
> body? It would certainly affect their 'uploading' idea."

I don't understand why this mysticism, thinly veiled religious
drivel, and general hogwash still makes its way to this list.  The
best answer to a dualist is to whack him over the head.  Hard.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 18 15:31:16 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:31:16 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Time Travel Fund[tm]
Message-ID: <Law9-F10z9BaFLlJ3nq000095a9@hotmail.com>

A small price to pay for immortality. It's actually better than immortality 
since you get to skips over those hundreds/thousands/millions of years 
before time travel is discovered.

It makes a good gift.

BAL

>From: "Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>
>To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Time Travel Fund[tm]
>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:07:17 +1100
>
> > http://www.timetravelfund.com/
> > [Morlocks aide, how would YOU like to visit, even live hundreds of
> > years in the future? There may be a way, and that is the purpoe of The
> > Time Travel Fund.]
> >
> > Terry
>
>This seems bizarre to me. Are you seriously asking people to pay $10
>dollars for this 'service' ?
>
>Brett Paatsch
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_________________________________________________________________
Take off on a romantic weekend or a family adventure to these great U.S. 
locations. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx



From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 18 15:39:40 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 07:39:40 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mel's "Passion" movie
In-Reply-To: <000301c3f605$8475fc20$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <000d01c3f635$6c810440$6501a8c0@SHELLY>



> Russell Evermore
> Subject: [extropy-chat] Mel's "Passion" movie
> 
> 
> The Israeil Insider takes down Mel Gibson early with the Ipon...


Russell, I bet they won't get the judo allusion.  {8-]  spike



From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 18 15:38:15 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:38:15 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213005022.90545.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
	<c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213100215.GH28489@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <c100t7$qfm$3@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit3/thesun.html
> 
> says 
> 
> Mid-Life Crisis for the Earth
> 5.6 Gyr (1.1 Gyr from today):
>     * Sun 10% brighter: ~1.1 Lsun
>     * Cause a moist greenhouse effect on Earth, driving away most of the
>     * water in the air. 

Oh, okay.  That is of course a long shot from the previously claim
that "the sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in 500 million
years".

> I have no idea how reliable is this. Even 1% of solar constant change
> typically can wreak havoc to climate, so 10% increase sounds pretty
> catastrophic to me.

Yes, but it's a slow, continuous process.  Anybody have any figures
how much hotter the sun has grown over the time we've had multicellular
life on earth?

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 18 15:46:02 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 15:46:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: gay marriage
References: <20040217184232.67164.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
	<IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBCECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <c101bq$qfm$4@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:

> But again, what does this have to do with Muslims? Right wing Christian
> fundamentalists say the same things and worse. They also act instead than
> only talking, for example by beating gay couples and burning their houses.

Yes, but fundamentalist Christians are good Americans, which means
they receive an enormous bonus of good will on this intensely
chauvinist mailing list.  When I mentioned a few days ago that the
U.S. needs to start a crusade against the Bible Belt, there was a
timid suggestion of public ridicule and better education in public
schools.  No suggestion of sending in the troops, killing the
leaders, razing the churches, and sending the masses to forced
re-education camps, which would be more in line with the comments
typically advanced at the Muslim world here.  Even Robert Bradbury
failed to offer his customary suggestion of just genociding the
whole bunch.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 18 16:03:56 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:03:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: languages
References: <002201c3f336$ebe2d1c0$8bd5e150@ibm300mx>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0402141247370.24696-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <c102dc$rck$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Robert J. Bradbury <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:

> > I read recently that a native South American language (Tariana) has a
> > structure such that if you don't specify just *how* you know something that
> > you are talking about, you are lying.
> 
> Ben, I am not sure this is certain (I am not a language specialist)
> but there may be a native Russian language that has a similar character.
> It might be the Udmurt language. [...]

Well, there is not enough detail to look at this more closely,
but...

> But I would agree with anyone who would argue that a language structure
> like either of these examples would change both scientific and
> political debates.  Might also alter legal disputes significantly
> as well.

I don't think so.  I mean, after all we are quite capable of
expressing the veracity/reliability/etc of a piece of information
in English when we consider it important.  Grammaticizing this
sounds about as useful as grammaticizing tense--bizarrely redundant,
as the Chinese will tell you.

> It raises whole interesting questions regarding language and "intelligence".
> What would happen if "thou shalt not lie" turned into "thou cannot lie".(*)

Which is an enormous misapprehension on your part.

  I know for a fact that the world is flat.
  I know<-inflection for fact-> that the world is flat.

PEOPLE CAN JUST LIE.  Grammaticizing veracity won't change this one
bit.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 18 16:06:15 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:06:15 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <20040218152508.46746.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-617F60CC622C11D8B4A1000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/18/04 7:25) Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:

>This could lead one to conclude that human homosexual sex is not about
>love at all, but violence or simulated violence for asserting
>dominance, i.e. outside the protections of a loving and equal marriage relationship.


But only if we agree that the ethics of civil rights and liberties are part of the "natural order of things," which I think neither staunch libertarians nor staunch fundamentalists will argue.

B
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 18 16:16:55 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:16:55 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
References: <000001c3f5e3$456a46c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY><LAW10-OE60kVeNpIhm700026633@hotmail.com>
	<40337C19.2030905@jefallbright.net>
Message-ID: <Law10-OE193e68zKQAC00022a6a@hotmail.com>

AHA!
The bonobos having sex out of estrus, masturbating, and fondling each other
were examples I had used in that list. I had used ants for wars and for
agriculture (there is a type of ant that actually grows and harvests a
fungus).
 I couldn't find it by googling, but maybe I can recreate it with the proper
brainstorming. Many are starting to come back to me as we carry on this
conversation. I never knew that about dolphins though. As a matter of fact,
I probably didn;t give enough attention to sea life at all. I found the
examples I was looking for on land and didn;t even need to venture so far!
Oh, another was the "building" of a home in contrast to diggin a hole or
other such thing. Nests are one example, but I had found some that were far
better.
Others were the use of weapons to fight, cannibalism, food sharing, taking
care of the sick, taking care of other species, and and and....gee, I'm
stuck again. I'll keep working on it.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jef Allbright" <jef at jefallbright.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] gay marriage


> Kevin Freels wrote:
>
> >   I have heard
> >
> >>that bonobo females are well known to do each other, early
> >>and often.
> >
> >
> > Yes. The males also practice masturbation and will also fondle each
other.
>
>
> I was boating in the Santa Barbara channel last weekend and we came
> across two pods of literally hundreds of playful dolphins.  They raced
> toward the boat as we approached and then swam alongside, clearly for
> the enjoyment of it. My understanding is that dolphins copulate even
> when the female is not in estrus, "for the social bonding benefits", and
> sometimes up to seven times in a day.
>
> - Jef
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From neptune at superlink.net  Wed Feb 18 16:37:10 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 11:37:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
References: <r02010100-1032-617F60CC622C11D8B4A1000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>
Message-ID: <002701c3f63d$7598ec20$81cd5cd1@neptune>

On Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:06 AM Brent Neal brentn at freeshell.org
wrote:
>> This could lead one to conclude that human
>> homosexual sex is not about love at all, but
>> violence or simulated violence for asserting
>> dominance, i.e. outside the protections of a
>> loving and equal marriage relationship.
>
> But only if we agree that the ethics of civil rights
> and liberties are part of the "natural order of
> things," which I think neither staunch libertarians
> nor staunch fundamentalists will argue.

Since marriage relationships do not seem to be equal in almost all
cultures, why assume that heterosexual marriage is a "loving and equal
marriage relationship"?

Let's say Mike is right in his speculation and homosexual relationships
are about dominance.  As long as individuals freely enter into them, why
bother with them?  Or would anyone here also prevent people from, say,
being into S&M or any activity where one person dominates another and
both parties consent to it?

Also, the correct libertarian approach to this, IMHO, is to get the
government out of the marriage business all together.  Each person or
group could then define what he/she/they mean by "marriage" and not
recognize to their hearts content different types of marriage.  This
would be no different than, say, different sects of Christianity or
pick-a-religion not recognizing each other as the True Faith.  Funny, we
don't need the government to come in and edit the Bible to make sure
Christian groups don't destroy the institution of Christ...

And, for the record, some libertarians do believe that for humans
liberty is natural.  They would argue that initiating force violates the
natural order.  This does not mean they believe humans must follow what
other animals do, but that humans just do whatever they do as long as
they don't initiate force.  I believe Hoppe and Rothbard might fit into
this category.  In fact, the former often uses "natural order" as a
synonym for a free market based social order.  (I'm not saying I agree
with this usage.  After all, anything that happens is, in the
metaphysical sense, part of nature or natural or part of the natural
order.  Perhaps the distinction is meant to describe things that are
healthy, stable, or not self-destructive...)

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 16:37:04 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:37:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <c101bq$qfm$4@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040218163704.66264.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> 
> > But again, what does this have to do with Muslims? Right wing
> Christian
> > fundamentalists say the same things and worse. They also act
> instead than
> > only talking, for example by beating gay couples and burning their
> houses.
> 
> Yes, but fundamentalist Christians are good Americans, which means
> they receive an enormous bonus of good will on this intensely
> chauvinist mailing list.  When I mentioned a few days ago that the
> U.S. needs to start a crusade against the Bible Belt, there was a
> timid suggestion of public ridicule and better education in public
> schools.  No suggestion of sending in the troops, killing the
> leaders, razing the churches, and sending the masses to forced
> re-education camps, which would be more in line with the comments
> typically advanced at the Muslim world here.  Even Robert Bradbury
> failed to offer his customary suggestion of just genociding the
> whole bunch.

When fundamentalists issue a fatwa against all humanist-American
citizens, bomb several embassies, put up a bounty of $50,000 for each
homicide bomber who kills secular humanists for the cause, assassinate
reporters, and fly several airliners into major buildings, they you can
make a reasonable case that they are a morally equivalent threat.

Until that happens they are just a bunch of wackos beating their wives
and kids and promulgating ignorance, i.e. no different than alleged
'moderate' muslims who abhor radical islam.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Feb 18 16:41:06 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 08:41:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
In-Reply-To: <c100t7$qfm$3@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402180828100.11620-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> Yes, but it's a slow, continuous process.  Anybody have any figures
> how much hotter the sun has grown over the time we've had multicellular
> life on earth?

Perhaps start here:
  http://directory.google.com/Top/Science/Astronomy/Stars/Stellar_Evolution/

Unfortunately
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stellar_evolution
could use some work.

I suspect the number is probably ~10%.  But I would guess the key factor
would be the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.  Early atmospheres probably
had much more CO2 producing a much greater greenhouse effect (most molecular
clouds are going to be rich in CO and CO2 due to supernovas that produce
these elements in large quantities).  The CO/CO2 gets incorporated into the
comets and the comets transfer the carbon to the planets.  Because life
needs carbon planets like Earth have been depleted of CO2 in the atmosphere
over time.  Venus and Mars just lucked out.  Venus is a little too close
to the Sun for life to develop while Mars doesn't quite have enough gravity to
retain an atmosphere in the long run.  Someplace out there there may be
a solar system where things got setup just right -- and it may have 3 Earths.

Robert




From eugen at leitl.org  Wed Feb 18 17:15:57 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:15:57 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
In-Reply-To: <c100t7$qfm$3@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213005022.90545.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
	<c0h9h3$2eg3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213100215.GH28489@leitl.org>
	<c100t7$qfm$3@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040218171557.GB26194@leitl.org>

On Wed, Feb 18, 2004 at 03:38:15PM +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> > Mid-Life Crisis for the Earth
> > 5.6 Gyr (1.1 Gyr from today):
> >     * Sun 10% brighter: ~1.1 Lsun
> >     * Cause a moist greenhouse effect on Earth, driving away most of the
> >     * water in the air. 
> 
> Oh, okay.  That is of course a long shot from the previously claim
> that "the sun's expansion would destroy life on Earth in 500 million
> years".

Not really. Half a gigayear is ballpark figure. And of course this ignores
giant impacts, which will produce major extinction events and radical loss of
biodiversity (if not even higher life). You need a lot of time to rebound
from that. Arguably, more time that this biosphere's expiration date.
 
> > I have no idea how reliable is this. Even 1% of solar constant change
> > typically can wreak havoc to climate, so 10% increase sounds pretty
> > catastrophic to me.
> 
> Yes, but it's a slow, continuous process.  Anybody have any figures

No, luminosity quite suddenly starts going up once you go off the main sequence on
Hertzsprung-Russell. It's basically constant while you're still in hydrogen
burn. I was looking for a luminance curve vs. age for a
Sol-mass star, but haven't found any on the fly.

Since I'm at work, the best I can do is
http://cassfos02.ucsd.edu/physics/ph7/StevI.html

> how much hotter the sun has grown over the time we've had multicellular
> life on earth?



-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From neptune at superlink.net  Wed Feb 18 17:42:47 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:42:47 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Mel's "Passion" movie
References: <000d01c3f635$6c810440$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <003b01c3f646$9fdfe520$81cd5cd1@neptune>

On Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:39 AM Spike spike66 at comcast.net
wrote:
>> The Israeil Insider takes down Mel Gibson early with the Ipon...
>
> Russell, I bet they won't get the judo allusion.  {8-]  spike

I know I didn't!  And I actually had judo lessons at one point.:)

Later!

Dan



From namacdon at ole.augie.edu  Wed Feb 18 18:27:47 2004
From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:27:47 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Near Death Experiences: a scientific approach
Message-ID: <1077128867.b7509d00namacdon@ole.augie.edu>

 "The
best answer to a dualist is to whack him over the head.  Hard."


They have answers for that, too... ever try arguing with a Thomist?  Don't.

-Nicq MacDonald



From brentn at freeshell.org  Wed Feb 18 18:35:42 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:35:42 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <002701c3f63d$7598ec20$81cd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-426E875D624111D8B4A1000393A47D36@[192.168.123.121]>

 (2/18/04 11:37) Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> wrote:



>
>Let's say Mike is right in his speculation and homosexual relationships
>are about dominance.  As long as individuals freely enter into them, why
>bother with them?  Or would anyone here also prevent people from, say,
>being into S&M or any activity where one person dominates another and
>both parties consent to it?

No one -here- would - I think that is the point. :)

>
>Also, the correct libertarian approach to this, IMHO, is to get the
>government out of the marriage business all together.  

Exactly the point I made a while back. There is no reason why the current benefits of marriage under the legal code could not be implemented with more appropriate constructs in contract law.


>
>And, for the record, some libertarians do believe that for humans
>liberty is natural.  They would argue that initiating force violates the
>natural order.  This does not mean they believe humans must follow what
>other animals do, but that humans just do whatever they do as long as
>they don't initiate force.  I believe Hoppe and Rothbard might fit into
>this category.  In fact, the former often uses "natural order" as a
>synonym for a free market based social order.  (I'm not saying I agree
>with this usage.  After all, anything that happens is, in the
>metaphysical sense, part of nature or natural or part of the natural
>order.  Perhaps the distinction is meant to describe things that are
>healthy, stable, or not self-destructive...)

Here, I think the issue is the semantic differences in how people define "natural order," not any disagreement on libertarian philosophy. Liberty is clearly not the "natural order," as I define the term, since we have to fight to preserve it so much. :)

Coming at the problem in a less tongue-in-cheek fashion, I have a hard time defining any intellectual construct or philosophy as "natural." It is created, just like any building or any mathematical proof.  There is this weird phenomenon where people tend to equate the word "natural" with "good," in a sort of crazy appeal to (vague) authority. I think this is somewhat silly.

Civil liberties and rights, as we understand them today, were mostly laid out in the 17th and 18th centuries on the basis of the prevailing thought of the time about social theory*. The myriad of philosophers who did so made many arguments about the "natural-ness" of their ideas.  However, I don't think continued acceptance of the "natural" argument is necessary to view civil rights and liberties as a good unto themselves.  I'm perfectly satisfied with saying "In my experience, liberty is better than tyranny." I'm also satisfied with saying, "History and economics amply show that liberty is better than tyranny."  I therefore do not need to say "Liberty is natural."

B


* Of course, its more complicated than that really, and the "prevailing thought of the time" included lots of sources going back to the Magna Carta and earlier. But, essentially, this is where the modern constructions got their start.
-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 18 18:44:44 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:44:44 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] MEDIA:  TV program looking for UK ExI member
Message-ID: <119420-220042318184444621@M2W064.mail2web.com>

Greetings!

If you live in the UK, are a member of Extropy Institute (this is what the
producers requested, but I don't think it is entirely essential as long as
the interviewee is knowledgeable about life extension practices and
biotechnology), and can provide a challenging and informative interview for
a UK TV program, please email me soonest.  The producers are looking for
such a person and awaiting my reply.

Thanks,

Natasha

Natasha Vita-More
President, Extropy Institute

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From nanowave at shaw.ca  Wed Feb 18 20:50:03 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 12:50:03 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Near Death Experiences: a scientific approach
References: <1077128867.b7509d00namacdon@ole.augie.edu>
Message-ID: <003101c3f660$c8c2aa80$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

As a transhumanist, I have a bit of a problem with the terms "near
death" and "dualist" as used in the classical sense. Given the length
of the human timeline (a line roaring sharply upward into the spike),
one only has to take a few steps back to realize that all mortal
humans are more or less "near death". And the problem isn't resolved
by stepping closer, since "death" has always been a moving target -
i.e. totally dependent upon the technologies at hand. If I am laying
prone on a tabletop having antifreeze pumped into my carotids, it may
turn out that I'm not so near death as a fifteen-year-old luddite
taking his first puff of a cigarette.

And "dualism" as used classically implies a "you" that is somehow
separate from the physics of this universe - a soul or spirit that
exists independent from the atoms and molecules that constitute your
structure. Hogwash says I - but wait! Pick up an Abba CD and you have
in your hands a similar conundrum. The music on the CD or its "spirit"
in a sense does indeed transcend the medium. This has to be true if
you can copy it, and then toss out the original piece of plastic and
aluminum foil. The pattern transcends the substrate - but not without
a substrate substitute. And here is where classical dualism falls
flat. What is the proposed substrate that carries away our pattern at
the "moment" of death? Oxygen, nitrogen, helium? Nope. Just the
gossamer threads of angel snot.

Russell Evermore

Every transhuman is by definition, and first and foremost, a
survivalist. For in times of war and strife, the risks of ITD
(information theoretic death) multiply geometrically - potentially
rendering such cognitive distinctions as human/transhuman essentially
meaningless.



Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Near Death Experiences: a scientific
approach


> "The
> best answer to a dualist is to whack him over the head.  Hard."
>
>
> They have answers for that, too... ever try arguing with a Thomist?
Don't.
>
> -Nicq MacDonald
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From major at audry2.com  Wed Feb 18 21:59:49 2004
From: major at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 05:59:49 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <20040217224921.18062.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> (message
	from Mike Lorrey on Tue, 17 Feb 2004 14:49:21 -0800 (PST))
References: <20040217224921.18062.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200402182159.i1ILxn804748@igor.synonet.com>


Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> writes:

> What it has to do with muslims is that they allegedly come here to 'be
> americans', but immediately set about trying to change America, just as
> others come here from europe and immediately start donating to anti-gun
> groups. It is dishonest immigration.

It would only be dishonest if potential immigrants were required to
warrant that they regarded America as perfect in every way. In fact it
is only necessary for a potential immigrant to think that America is,
on balance, better than the country they are from in order for to
justify the decision to immigrate.

After I have immigrated I should be as free as any other citizen to
engage in free speech or other legal political action in order to make
the place better.

Major


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Feb 18 21:39:15 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:39:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
In-Reply-To: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBGECPCBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <20040218213915.81919.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> Note: Retrieving you just before
> the moment of death is
> just one possible scenario, but one that would avoid
> any Star Trek(TM) type
> paradoxes.

Better option: retrieve from after the person goes
into cryonic suspension.  Of course, that requires the
person have cryonic suspension...in which case, from
the person's point of view, death would be an
immediate
transport to a future revival as a posthuman even
without time travel.  So, why spend resources on this
alternate approach, if the chances of it ever
suceeding
are as low as they appear?


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Feb 18 21:59:39 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 13:59:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: overtorqing the luddites
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402170642580.13885-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040218215939.28633.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> But if one bars reproductive cloning on the basis of
> the probable increase in genetic defects one rides
> into a bioethics swamp.
> 
> If you adopt a position that it is illegal to allow
> deformed children to be born -- then don't you have
> to
> bar the (informed) birth of children with Down's
> Syndrome,
> Cystic Fibrosis, Muscular Dystrophy and any of the
> other
> 5000+ known genetic diseases?

That's the direction I see the law heading towards.
Today, ethics aside, it is impractical to require all
potential parents to get genetic screening - and the
potential remedies (abortion, pills, and the like)
are not fully accepted or (in the case of gene
therapy) also not economically practical at this time
due to the immaturity of the technology.  So as a
practical matter, it would be useless to forbid birth
deformities.

Once it does become practical, you can expect to see
this seriously proposed.  "What parent would want to
see their child born disabled, when it is so easy to
correct?  What reason is there not to require this,
other than to coddle irresponsible parents?  Won't
someone think of the children?"

But, today, reproductive cloning can be prohibited as
a practical matter.  It's only a step, but it's better
than nothing from this point of view.

> It is then but a small step to
> prohibiting
> reproduction by people with *any* genetic defect
> (and we all probably have 5-10 of them).
> You are on a *very* slippery slope.

Define "defect".  For things that everyone agrees are
defects, if they can be corrected, see above.  (If
they can not, then having children at all takes
precedence over having fixed children.  But I suspect
that this issue will seriously arise only after
genetic defects in unborn children can easily be
fixed.)  For things that not everyone agrees are
defects (for instance, deafness today), the debate
centers around whether the trait really is a defect.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 18 22:06:45 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:06:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <200402182159.i1ILxn804748@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Major <major at audry2.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> > What it has to do with muslims is that they allegedly come here to
> 'be
> > americans', but immediately set about trying to change America,
> just as
> > others come here from europe and immediately start donating to
> anti-gun
> > groups. It is dishonest immigration.
> 
> It would only be dishonest if potential immigrants were required to
> warrant that they regarded America as perfect in every way. In fact
> it
> is only necessary for a potential immigrant to think that America is,
> on balance, better than the country they are from in order for to
> justify the decision to immigrate.
> 
> After I have immigrated I should be as free as any other citizen to
> engage in free speech or other legal political action in order to
> make the place better.

Actually, the 13th Amendment (the original one, which will soon make a
legal resurgence) disagrees with you. Turns out acting on behalf of a
foreign power, receiving gifts or pay of any kind from a foreign power
by any American is Constitutionally grounds for stripping one's citizenship.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 18 22:38:19 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:38:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Near Death Experiences: a scientific approach
References: <1077128867.b7509d00namacdon@ole.augie.edu>
Message-ID: <c10pgr$16j3$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Nicholas Anthony MacDonald <namacdon at ole.augie.edu> wrote:

>  "The best answer to a dualist is to whack him over the head.  Hard."
> 
> They have answers for that, too... ever try arguing with a Thomist?  Don't.

I'm not going to waste breath arguing with dualists.  It is they
who are making the most outrageous claim, so they need to present
extraordinary proof.  Of course they may think the reverse, but
hey, tough shit, you can't be friends with every loon out there.
Dualism belongs into the same trash can of history as phlogiston,
abiogenesis, and vitalism.

Let me be very clear: I do not take dualists seriously.
(Conversely, they probably consider me an idiot.  So be it.)

Of course I'm also a functionalist, which makes me some sort of
dualist in some people's eyes.  Lots of time to be wasted in playing
semantic games with labels ...

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com  Wed Feb 18 22:40:15 2004
From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:40:15 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Near Death Experiences: a scientific approach
Message-ID: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB382B@amazemail2.amazeent.com>

I think it's generally recognized that near-death experiences are a
result
of blockade of the NMDA receptor complex. Dissociative anesthetics and
drugs
such as Ketamine, PCP, and high-dose dextromethorphan can produce
experiences
more or less like a NDE.

See http://www.ecstasy.org/info/kket4.html for a survey
and google http://www.google.com/search?q=near-death+nmda

Acy

[ -----Original Message-----
[ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
[ [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Johnius
[ Sent: Wednesday, 18 February, 2004 00:22
[ To: ExI chat list
[ Subject: [extropy-chat] Near Death Experiences: a scientific approach
[ 
[ 
[ Hi all,
[ 
[   A friend of mine pointed me towards some work that seems
[ to support the notion of separability of 'mind' and 'body'
[ or brain (e.g., near-death experience, mind-life-after-death).
[ I personally don't buy it--I think that 'mind' is what brains
[ do, but maybe there's something here that non-dualists need 
[ to answer?
[ 
 
http://www.datadiwan.de/SciMedNet/library/articlesN75+/N76Parnia_nde.htm

  My friend wrote:
"he addresses most if not all the objections given against 
NDEs being produced outside of the brain. [...]
scientific analysis of whether life and consciousness go on 
after death might just settle that question.

What do the extropians think of this separation of mind and
body? It would certainly affect their 'uploading' idea."

  Further work might be found by searching on 
"Peter Fenwick" and "Sam Parnia" ... but beware that many
of the hits will probably be on certifiable crackpots...

Johnius
_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Wed Feb 18 22:50:52 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:50:52 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Animals
References: <c0h2va$2chq$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040213100215.GH28489@leitl.org>
	<c100t7$qfm$3@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040218171557.GB26194@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <c10q8c$16j3$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:

> > > I have no idea how reliable is this. Even 1% of solar constant change
> > > typically can wreak havoc to climate, so 10% increase sounds pretty
> > > catastrophic to me.
> > 
> > Yes, but it's a slow, continuous process.  Anybody have any figures
> 
> No, luminosity quite suddenly starts going up once you go off the main
> sequence on Hertzsprung-Russell.

But the point we have been talking about is just the (past and)
future luminosity increase while the sun is still on the main
sequence.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 19 00:05:54 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 18:05:54 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
References: <20040218213915.81919.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE54TlgX5JNzl0006e7fb@hotmail.com>

I already wrote a letter to my own descendents and placed it into a
safe-deposit box asking for someone from the future to come get me. There
are instructions outside to pass on the care of the letter to the next
descendent and all those things I could think of to make sure it gets passed
on.

Unfortunately, I am still here so I can only assume my letter never made it,
or time-travel never will become possible....................


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund


> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> > Note: Retrieving you just before
> > the moment of death is
> > just one possible scenario, but one that would avoid
> > any Star Trek(TM) type
> > paradoxes.
>
> Better option: retrieve from after the person goes
> into cryonic suspension.  Of course, that requires the
> person have cryonic suspension...in which case, from
> the person's point of view, death would be an
> immediate
> transport to a future revival as a posthuman even
> without time travel.  So, why spend resources on this
> alternate approach, if the chances of it ever
> suceeding
> are as low as they appear?
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 2/18/2004


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Feb 19 00:19:07 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:19:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE54TlgX5JNzl0006e7fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040219001907.29421.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I already wrote a letter to my own descendents and
> placed it into a
> safe-deposit box asking for someone from the future
> to come get me. There
> are instructions outside to pass on the care of the
> letter to the next
> descendent and all those things I could think of to
> make sure it gets passed
> on.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am still here so I can only assume
> my letter never made it,
> or time-travel never will become
> possible....................

Or someone along the line decided we weren't worth
saving, or possibly that the Extropians' impact on
society was so great and positive that they dare not
risk even the slightest interference with any of our
lives.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 00:21:41 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:21:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE54TlgX5JNzl0006e7fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040219002141.86427.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, that's not it. They've just read all the posts you've made on the
internet (and will make in the future), and decided they just don't
want to deal with a barbaric crotchedy great-nth-grandmonster. I know,
that's what my decendants told me... ;)

Another possible explaination is that you lived into the future, and
your future self nixed the whole plan cause you don't want to have to
deal with yourself... ;) If I were you I'd not complain. Imagine having
to deal with your older self your whole life, always being treated
condescendingly, him knowing all the answers and having all the
cultural referents. Jerk would make it insufferable for you.

I'd hate to be my own little brother...

--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I already wrote a letter to my own descendents and placed it into a
> safe-deposit box asking for someone from the future to come get me.
> There
> are instructions outside to pass on the care of the letter to the
> next
> descendent and all those things I could think of to make sure it gets
> passed
> on.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am still here so I can only assume my letter never
> made it,
> or time-travel never will become possible....................
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
> 
> 
> > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> > > Note: Retrieving you just before
> > > the moment of death is
> > > just one possible scenario, but one that would avoid
> > > any Star Trek(TM) type
> > > paradoxes.
> >
> > Better option: retrieve from after the person goes
> > into cryonic suspension.  Of course, that requires the
> > person have cryonic suspension...in which case, from
> > the person's point of view, death would be an
> > immediate
> > transport to a future revival as a posthuman even
> > without time travel.  So, why spend resources on this
> > alternate approach, if the chances of it ever
> > suceeding
> > are as low as they appear?
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 2/18/2004
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 00:21:45 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:21:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE54TlgX5JNzl0006e7fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040219002145.58384.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, that's not it. They've just read all the posts you've made on the
internet (and will make in the future), and decided they just don't
want to deal with a barbaric crotchedy great-nth-grandmonster. I know,
that's what my decendants told me... ;)

Another possible explaination is that you lived into the future, and
your future self nixed the whole plan cause you don't want to have to
deal with yourself... ;) If I were you I'd not complain. Imagine having
to deal with your older self your whole life, always being treated
condescendingly, him knowing all the answers and having all the
cultural referents. Jerk would make it insufferable for you.

I'd hate to be my own little brother...

--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I already wrote a letter to my own descendents and placed it into a
> safe-deposit box asking for someone from the future to come get me.
> There
> are instructions outside to pass on the care of the letter to the
> next
> descendent and all those things I could think of to make sure it gets
> passed
> on.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am still here so I can only assume my letter never
> made it,
> or time-travel never will become possible....................
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
> 
> 
> > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> > > Note: Retrieving you just before
> > > the moment of death is
> > > just one possible scenario, but one that would avoid
> > > any Star Trek(TM) type
> > > paradoxes.
> >
> > Better option: retrieve from after the person goes
> > into cryonic suspension.  Of course, that requires the
> > person have cryonic suspension...in which case, from
> > the person's point of view, death would be an
> > immediate
> > transport to a future revival as a posthuman even
> > without time travel.  So, why spend resources on this
> > alternate approach, if the chances of it ever
> > suceeding
> > are as low as they appear?
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 2/18/2004
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 00:21:47 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:21:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE54TlgX5JNzl0006e7fb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040219002147.66012.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>

Nah, that's not it. They've just read all the posts you've made on the
internet (and will make in the future), and decided they just don't
want to deal with a barbaric crotchedy great-nth-grandmonster. I know,
that's what my decendants told me... ;)

Another possible explaination is that you lived into the future, and
your future self nixed the whole plan cause you don't want to have to
deal with yourself... ;) If I were you I'd not complain. Imagine having
to deal with your older self your whole life, always being treated
condescendingly, him knowing all the answers and having all the
cultural referents. Jerk would make it insufferable for you.

I'd hate to be my own little brother...

--- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I already wrote a letter to my own descendents and placed it into a
> safe-deposit box asking for someone from the future to come get me.
> There
> are instructions outside to pass on the care of the letter to the
> next
> descendent and all those things I could think of to make sure it gets
> passed
> on.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am still here so I can only assume my letter never
> made it,
> or time-travel never will become possible....................
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
> 
> 
> > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> > > Note: Retrieving you just before
> > > the moment of death is
> > > just one possible scenario, but one that would avoid
> > > any Star Trek(TM) type
> > > paradoxes.
> >
> > Better option: retrieve from after the person goes
> > into cryonic suspension.  Of course, that requires the
> > person have cryonic suspension...in which case, from
> > the person's point of view, death would be an
> > immediate
> > transport to a future revival as a posthuman even
> > without time travel.  So, why spend resources on this
> > alternate approach, if the chances of it ever
> > suceeding
> > are as low as they appear?
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 2/18/2004
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

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From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Thu Feb 19 01:04:20 2004
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:04:20 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stem cells mined from human-embryo clone
Message-ID: <40340B94.A5DF9B55@Genius.UCSD.edu>

Hi all, apologies if this has already been posted here... J


Stem cells mined from human-embryo clone
----------
  [Excite News]
Researchers in South Korea have cloned a human embryo to cull stem cells 
from it -- a step toward one day growing patients' own replacement tissue 
to treat diseases. The experiment is sure to revive controversy over human 
cloning, both in the United States and internationally. (02/11/04)
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040212/D80LDJ6O0.html


Loud minority must not rule on stem cells
----------
  [Herald.net]
Froma Harrop asks, "Are Washington politicians going to tell millions of 
American families that their loved ones must die because religious 
conservatives don't approve of embryonic stem-cell research?" (02/15/04)
http://www.heraldnet.com/Stories/04/2/15/18184775.cfm


[from Ifeminists.net]


From extropy at audry2.com  Thu Feb 19 02:09:49 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:09:49 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
Message-ID: <200402190209.i1J29n506452@igor.synonet.com>


"Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> writes:

> > I've heard that dolphins can be mean sons-a-bitches
> > too, but no firsthand knowledge.
> 
> I've heard stories to this effect as well -- but it seems
> more like it is not so much being mean as being playful.
> E.g., lets play with this baby shark or baby fish, etc.

A is not likely to be well regarded by B if B regards A as food.
A is not likely to be well regarded by B if B responds as one might
expect when A regards B's young as food.

Fish (including sharks) are regarded as food by dolphins and sharks
probably threaten dolphin's young (though I do not know this for a
fact).

Sharks fear dolphins (for good reason).

For the rest of us dolphins are good neighbors given to playful pranks
like tossing you off your surfboard but definitely not "mean
sons-a-bitches".

Major


From extropy at audry2.com  Thu Feb 19 02:10:58 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:10:58 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Immigrants (was: gay marriage)
Message-ID: <200402190210.i1J2AwU06518@igor.synonet.com>


Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> writes:

> What it has to do with muslims is that they allegedly come here to 'be
> americans', but immediately set about trying to change America, just as
> others come here from europe and immediately start donating to anti-gun
> groups. It is dishonest immigration.

It would only be dishonest if potential immigrants were required to
warrant that they regarded America as perfect in every way. In fact it
is only necessary for a potential immigrant to think that America is,
on balance, better than the country they are from in order for to
justify the decision to immigrate.

After I have immigrated I should be as free as any other citizen to
engage in free speech or other legal political action in order to make
the place better.

Major



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 01:26:53 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:26:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Immigrants (was: gay marriage)
In-Reply-To: <200402190210.i1J2AwU06518@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <20040219012653.41151.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Major <extropy at audry2.com> wrote:
> 
> Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> writes:
> 
> > What it has to do with muslims is that they allegedly come here to
> 'be
> > americans', but immediately set about trying to change America,
> just as
> > others come here from europe and immediately start donating to
> anti-gun
> > groups. It is dishonest immigration.
> 
> It would only be dishonest if potential immigrants were required to
> warrant that they regarded America as perfect in every way. In fact
> it
> is only necessary for a potential immigrant to think that America is,
> on balance, better than the country they are from in order for to
> justify the decision to immigrate.
> 
> After I have immigrated I should be as free as any other citizen to
> engage in free speech or other legal political action in order to
> make the place better.

If 'better' means legislating to turn this country into the same sort
of cesshole they escaped from, I don't regard that in any way a 'better'.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 19 01:32:26 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:32:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <200402190209.i1J29n506452@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <20040219013226.20823.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Major <extropy at audry2.com> wrote:
> 
> For the rest of us dolphins are good neighbors given to playful
> pranks
> like tossing you off your surfboard but definitely not "mean
> sons-a-bitches".

This is not entirely so. Any resort that has a 'play with the dolphins'
program strictly warns women who are pregnant or having their period
that they should not get in the water. The dolphins can smell blood
from the womb and can hear the heartbeat of a fetus, and are extremely
unreliable around such women. Sometimes they will crowd around a
pregnant woman to the exclusion of the other tourists, even harassing
tourists that get close to the woman, other times they will try to push
a woman out of the pool, apparently for fear that her blood will
attract sharks.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From extropy at audry2.com  Thu Feb 19 02:51:05 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:51:05 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> (message
	from Mike Lorrey on Wed, 18 Feb 2004 14:06:45 -0800 (PST))
References: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200402190251.i1J2p5j07235@igor.synonet.com>


Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> writes:

> > After I have immigrated I should be as free as any other citizen to
> > engage in free speech or other legal political action in order to
> > make the place better.
> 
> Actually, the 13th Amendment (the original one, which will soon make a
> legal resurgence) disagrees with you. Turns out acting on behalf of a
> foreign power, receiving gifts or pay of any kind from a foreign power
> by any American is Constitutionally grounds for stripping one's citizenship.

I don't see how your reply follows from my comment.

To "engage in free speech or other legal political action in order to
make the place better" by a (new or otherwise) American citizen is
not necessarily, or even usually, "acting on behalf of a foreign power".

A person can "engage in free speech or other legal political action in
order to make the place better" because "making the place better" makes
it better for *them* not for some foreign power. No citizen in a
democracy should feel that if they point out their (and is *is*
"their" once they become citizens) country's faults the loyalty police
are going to chuck them out.

If you start treating people who have political opinions and express
them in a legal way as spies (which is what clause was apparently
about) you are right back in the McCarthy era.

Major

PS1: "receiving gifts [...] from a foreign power" is something which
  every US President and most members of congress have done. Be
  interesting to expel the lot of them and make a fresh start,
  wouldn't it?

PS2: I like "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
  punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted,
  shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their
  jurisdiction" better anyhow.


From extropy at audry2.com  Thu Feb 19 03:04:40 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:04:40 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Immigrants (was: gay marriage)
In-Reply-To: <20040219012653.41151.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> (message
	from Mike Lorrey on Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:26:53 -0800 (PST))
References: <20040219012653.41151.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200402190304.i1J34eF07355@igor.synonet.com>


Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> writes:

> If 'better' means legislating to turn this country into the same sort
> of cesshole they escaped from, I don't regard that in any way a 'better'.

It may or not be better (in the case of gay marriage I happen to think
the protesters were wrong), but that is beside the point.

An immigrant who came off the boat last week should have exactly the
same right to express his opinion as someone who can trace their
ancestry to the Mayflower.

Major


From extropy at audry2.com  Thu Feb 19 03:11:31 2004
From: extropy at audry2.com (Major)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:11:31 +0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <20040219013226.20823.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> (message
	from Mike Lorrey on Wed, 18 Feb 2004 17:32:26 -0800 (PST))
References: <20040219013226.20823.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200402190311.i1J3BVw07474@igor.synonet.com>


Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> writes:

> > definitely not "mean sons-a-bitches".
> 
> This is not entirely so. Any resort that has a 'play with the dolphins'
> program strictly warns women who are pregnant or having their period
> that they should not get in the water. The dolphins can smell blood
> from the womb and can hear the heartbeat of a fetus, and are extremely
> unreliable around such women. Sometimes they will crowd around a
> pregnant woman to the exclusion of the other tourists, even harassing
> tourists that get close to the woman, other times they will try to push
> a woman out of the pool, apparently for fear that her blood will
> attract sharks.

This sounds like the dolphins intend to protect the woman and/or her
unborn. Even if they were to accidentally do harm in the process that
would hardly class them as "mean sons-a-bitches".

Major


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Thu Feb 19 03:59:18 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:59:18 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Witch-hunting (Was gay marriage)
In-Reply-To: <200402190251.i1J2p5j07235@igor.synonet.com>
References: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040218221323.028d2d90@mail.comcast.net>

Major wrote:

>If you start treating people who have political opinions and express
>them in a legal way as spies (which is what clause was apparently
>about) you are right back in the McCarthy era.

It's a good comparison because, as the evidence now devastatingly shows, 
the US *was* infested for decades at the highest levels by Soviet agents, 
sympathizers, and dupes.

I'm trying to imagine how much freedom and life would have been preserved 
had we had effective counter-intelligence and anti-Communist zeal instead. 
When would the USSR have had atomic weapons, absent the spies? We surely 
would have been able to block the Soviet imprisonment of Eastern Europe 
without the presence of influential Communists in FDR's administration.

Would my relatives be alive if there'd been honest reporting of Stalin's 
deliberate starvation of the Ukraine? Would Amara have more family alive if 
Latvia had been restored to a free republic when WW II ended? Might Sasha 
still be with us had the Soviet Union collapsed decades sooner?

I sympathize with reasoned opposition to domestic defensive measures or an 
interventionist foreign policy. The question is what to do instead, in the 
face of the presence of a persistent group determined to hurt us. Starting 
from where we are today, not presupposing anarchotopia or libertopia.


-- David Lubkin.




From brentn at freeshell.org  Thu Feb 19 04:25:16 2004
From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 23:25:16 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Witch-hunting (Was gay marriage)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040218221323.028d2d90@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <r02010100-1032-9EDC5B0C629311D8B4A1000393A47D36@[192.168.123.152]>

 (2/18/04 22:59) David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:

>Major wrote:
>
>>If you start treating people who have political opinions and express
>>them in a legal way as spies (which is what clause was apparently
>>about) you are right back in the McCarthy era.
>

>I'm trying to imagine how much freedom and life would have been preserved 
>had we had effective counter-intelligence and anti-Communist zeal instead. 
>When would the USSR have had atomic weapons, absent the spies? We surely 
>would have been able to block the Soviet imprisonment of Eastern Europe 
>without the presence of influential Communists in FDR's administration.
>

We had plenty of anti-Communist zeal. Unfortunately, it was used as a political tool domestically. Eventually, people stopped believing the BS.

And its not like an atom bomb is terribly difficult to build. Bohr's papers show that German scientists were well on their way towards building one of their own, and well, Russia has always had good physicists.


>
>I sympathize with reasoned opposition to domestic defensive measures or an 
>interventionist foreign policy. The question is what to do instead, in the 
>face of the presence of a persistent group determined to hurt us. Starting 
>from where we are today, not presupposing anarchotopia or libertopia.

Well, I'm not sure what else you propose to do under these circumstances, but clearly, handing the goverment more power to imprison and search and investigate is neither going to catch more malefactors nor increase our freedom.

The powers given to law enforcement in the current climate, if usage is any indicator, seem to be targetted towards political opponents and activist groups that disagree with the administration's policies. Of course, its not like we should be surprised, after J. Edgar Hoover's COINTELPRO and the activities of the Nixon administration. The current bunch of yokels make Nixon look like a rank amateur.  I know -I- don't feel safer knowing that the Patriot provisions are being used to investigate anti-Bush activist groups. Rather the opposite, in fact.

I sympathize with the desire to trade liberty for security, but we've seen before and we're seeing now that there are always always always hidden costs for doing so.

B


-- 
Brent Neal
Geek of all Trades
http://brentn.freeshell.org

"Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Thu Feb 19 04:30:25 2004
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 20:30:25 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Witch-hunting (Was gay marriage)
References: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com><20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040218221323.028d2d90@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <006701c3f6a1$18ae75c0$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: "David Lubkin" <extropy at unreasonable.com>
> Major wrote:
> >If you start treating people who have political opinions and express
> >them in a legal way as spies (which is what clause was apparently
> >about) you are right back in the McCarthy era.

> I sympathize with reasoned opposition to domestic defensive measures or an
> interventionist foreign policy. The question is what to do instead, in the
> face of the presence of a persistent group determined to hurt us. Starting
> from where we are today, not presupposing anarchotopia or libertopia.

Yes, what to do, what to do (after we figure out just who are the bad guys
and who are the good guys, and who is trying to hurt us - and maybe are we
hurting ourselves in the process, as well? and, if so, how?)  I saw this for
the first time today, and I wonder what you think (warning:  it's very
bloody and graphic) ... and how are we going to get out of this?:

http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

Olga






From twodeel at jornada.org  Thu Feb 19 06:06:29 2004
From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:06:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] List of silly misconceptions
In-Reply-To: <200402190209.i1J29n506452@igor.synonet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402182205370.2523-100000@hplx.net>

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004, Major wrote:

> Sharks fear dolphins (for good reason).

Which sharks and which dolphins?  In areas like the Mediterranean,
dolphins are the primary food source of larger sharks.



From extropy at unreasonable.com  Thu Feb 19 07:12:28 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 02:12:28 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Witch-hunting
In-Reply-To: <r02010100-1032-9EDC5B0C629311D8B4A1000393A47D36@[192.168.1
	23.152]>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040218221323.028d2d90@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040219005529.03178e28@mail.comcast.net>

I wrote:

 >I'm trying to imagine how much freedom and life would have been preserved
 >had we had effective counter-intelligence and anti-Communist zeal instead.
 >When would the USSR have had atomic weapons, absent the spies? We surely
 >would have been able to block the Soviet imprisonment of Eastern Europe
 >without the presence of influential Communists in FDR's administration.

Brent Neal wrote:

>We had plenty of anti-Communist zeal. Unfortunately, it was used as a 
>political tool domestically. Eventually, people stopped believing the BS.

The intended parsing of my sentence applies the adjective "effective" to 
both "counter-intelligence" and "anti-Communist zeal." There were genuine 
enemy agents detected and removed during the HUAC era but the greatest harm 
had already occurred, years or decades earlier.

>And its not like an atom bomb is terribly difficult to build. Bohr's 
>papers show that German scientists were well on their way towards building 
>one of their own, and well, Russia has always had good physicists.

Yes, but they didn't always value them. In the Soviet Union of the 1930's 
(and somewhat of the 40's), modern physics was considered a dangerous 
threat to the "victorious tides of dialectical materialism." Bohr was 
denounced for promoting bourgeois ideas. Houtermans, who escaped from the 
Nazis to the USSR, was arrested and tortured. Gamow took the hint and 
repeatedly attempted to defect, eventually succeeding. Landau was arrested 
in 1938 and sentenced to ten years; only Kapitza's courage got him out.

Again, timing is everything. Under those circumstances, the first Soviet 
atomic and nuclear weapons might have been delayed a few more years without 
the espionage of the Rosenbergs, Klaus Fuchs, and their colleagues.

I wrote:

 >I sympathize with reasoned opposition to domestic defensive measures or an
 >interventionist foreign policy. The question is what to do instead, in the
 >face of the presence of a persistent group determined to hurt us. Starting
 >from where we are today, not presupposing anarchotopia or libertopia.

Brent wrote:

>Well, I'm not sure what else you propose to do under these circumstances, 
>but clearly, handing the goverment more power to imprison and search and 
>investigate is neither going to catch more malefactors nor increase our 
>freedom.

Whether it catches more malefactors or not remains to be seen. *Some* 
aspects of Patriot seem to be common-sensical updates in the face of new 
technology -- such as allowing a court order for a wiretap to apply to any 
phone the subject uses, not just a predetermined number.

If we agree that there is a threat worth protecting against, then we can 
turn to what might be effective. A number of ideas have been discussed here 
since 9/11. I'd argued for distributed, decentralized solutions. For 
example, I proposed several alternatives to let many more people qualify to 
be armed on planes. I think we also talked about a federal law to guarantee 
CCW reciprocity nationwide.

The omnipresence of cell phones is a good step. Apparently in Japan so many 
people have video cell phones that tv news broadcasts will often go live 
with amateur phone video from an accident or crime scene.

I'm glad the Pentagon took Robin's ideas seriously, even if the press 
distorted it.


-- David Lubkin.




From amara at amara.com  Thu Feb 19 08:09:17 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:09:17 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Countdown to Rosetta
Message-ID: <p05100300bc5a1ed92b1c@[150.146.134.133]>

7 Days till the opening of the Rosetta launch window:

http://www.esa.int/export/SPECIALS/Rosetta/SEMH2N1PGQD_0.html
http://www.esa.int/export/esaSC/120389_index_0_m.html

Amara

-- 

***********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD
INAF Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario
Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA
tel: +39-06-4993-4375       |fax:  +39-06-4993-4383
Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it  | http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/dustgroup/~graps
************************************************************************
I'M SIGNIFICANT!...screamed the dust speck. -- Calvin


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 19 11:08:01 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 03:08:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402190245480.1567-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Ok, here are two very interesting articles on why the shuttle
may never fly again and why it is essential to have them service
the Hubble (by Zubrin no less...)...

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/shuttle-04d.html

and

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04d.html

The second is interesting because of Zubrin's words
about the need for the Mars Society to be commited
"to the search for truth".  I am *sooo* going to use those
words to roast the Mars colonization idea if I ever
get to do a presentation at a Mars Society meeting.
(It might be the last meeting I am capable of attending
and there are a couple of other presentations I might
want to do first so I'm trying to figure out the
best timing...).  :-;

Robert




From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Feb 19 13:32:08 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:32:08 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...
Message-ID: <4034BAD8.1070904@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Thu Feb 19, 2004 04:08 am Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> Ok, here are two very interesting articles on why the shuttle
> may never fly again and why it is essential to have them service
> the Hubble (by Zubrin no less...)...


This article goes along with my speculation that NASA also wants to stop
flying the shuttle. But they want to keep all that lovely shuttle budget
money. So they need some (any?) excuse to keep it.

<http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/02/17/russia.spacecraft.ap/>
On Feb 17, 2004, Russia announced that Russian engineers have begun
design work on a new spacecraft that would be twice as big and spacious
as the existing Soyuz crew capsules. The new craft will be able to carry
at least six cosmonauts and have a reusable crew section.

<http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/RUSSIA_SPACE_DREAMS?SITE=PAPIT&SECTION=HOME>
On Jan 20, 2004 after Bush announced his Mars plan the Russians
immediately said that they had already designed a Mars mission that
could be done for $15 billion.

I do see that the Russian space industry would really like to get a
share of all that NASA funding, Given the current craze on out-sourcing 
in USA, it sounds like a good deal. No?
Or is the USA space program too tied into the military?

BillK







From max at maxmore.com  Thu Feb 19 19:24:22 2004
From: max at maxmore.com (Max More)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:24:22 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Some great stuff on the Vital Progress Summit site!
Message-ID: <6.0.2.0.2.20040219131358.01fb3ec8@mail.earthlink.net>

After a warm-up period as we figured out how to use all the features of the 
underlying software, the VP Summit is buzzing with well over one hundred 
people now registered.

-- Excellent postings by Jacques Du Pasquier, Reason, and others

-- Keynote statements nicely varying in length, style, and tone. Most 
recently added one by Ray Kurzweil and a thorough one by Michael Shapiro 
(who you may have heard at Extro-4), with several more imminent.

This is FUN combined with ACHIEVING something in terms of defending our 
freedom to progress.  Check it out!

http://summit.extropy.org

Some introductory information:
http://www.extropy.org/summit.htm

Onward!

Max


_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more at extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________ 




From doc454 at prodigy.net  Thu Feb 19 20:17:14 2004
From: doc454 at prodigy.net (doc454)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:17:14 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Witch-hunting (Was gay marriage)
References: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com><20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com><5.1.0.14.2.20040218221323.028d2d90@mail.comcast.net>
	<006701c3f6a1$18ae75c0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <000b01c3f725$5e1941b0$d49afea9@scottkupfds4gg>

I notice that the web site doesn't ask for any pictures of Islamic-Muslim
atrocities only Anglo-American atrocities. If the site's intent is to
demonstrate the horrors of war (and they are horrible) then atrocities on
all sides should be demonstrated and is laudible. This appears to be just an
attempt to discredit America. The  reality of war is ugly and we must never
forget that.

Scott
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Olga Bourlin" <fauxever at sprynet.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Witch-hunting (Was gay marriage)


> Yes, what to do, what to do (after we figure out just who are the bad guys
> and who are the good guys, and who is trying to hurt us - and maybe are we
> hurting ourselves in the process, as well? and, if so, how?)  I saw this
for
> the first time today, and I wonder what you think (warning:  it's very
> bloody and graphic) ... and how are we going to get out of this?:
>
> http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm
>
> Olga
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From scerir at libero.it  Thu Feb 19 20:39:07 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:39:07 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] beyond super-position
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040218221323.028d2d90@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040219005529.03178e28@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c3f728$6c5973a0$96b61b97@administxl09yj>

"It or Bit?" asked Wheeler, and Zeh, et al.
It seems that the Wien school (Zeilinger and coworkers)
follows both ways. "Bit" and now also "It"
http://physicsweb.org/article/news/8/2/9
in the sense that you can try to "explain" interferences
in abstract terms ("Bit", limited information)
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201026
and also in physical terms ("It", [de]coherence).

It seems interesting to say that concepts like
"Bit" and "It" are mixed up not just in the
space-like picture, but also in the time-like
picture, that is to say in the (so called) quantum
delayed choice (or retro-causation), formulated by 
von Weizsaecker (and also Einstein, if I remember well), 
and 50 years later by Wheeler.

As Anton Zeilinger writes (Rev. Mod. Phys., 1999, page S-288)
"The superposition of amplitudes is only valid if there
is no way to know, even in principle, which path the particle
took. It is important to realize that this does not imply
that an observer actually takes note of what happens.
It is sufficient to destroy the interference pattern,
if the path information is accessible in principle from
the experiment or even if it is dispersed in the environment
and beyond any technical possibility to be recovered, but
in principle 'still out there'".

"In an experiment the state reflects not what is actually
known about the system, but rather what is knowable, in principle,
with the help of auxiliary measurements that do not disturb
the original experiment. By focusing on what is knowable in
principle, and treating what is known as largely irrelevant,
one completely avoids the anthropomorphism and any reference
to consciousness that some physicists have tried to inject
into quantum mechanics" writes Leonard Mandel (Rev. Mod. Phys., 
1999, p. S-274).

Now, imagine that (i.e. in the two-slit apparatus) the information 
about the "which way", the "welcher weg" the the atom, or the C-70 
Fullerene took, is still out there, in the air (i.e. in the form of 
scattered photons), and imagine you can *still* read - or you can 
*still* erase - this information when the atom, or the C-70 Fullerene, 
has *already* reached the screen (or the detector array). It turns 
out that the pattern on that screen (interferential or not) depends 
on that *still* readable - or *still* erasable - information.
Retrocausation. 




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Thu Feb 19 21:40:07 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:40:07 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] beyond super-position
In-Reply-To: <005c01c3f728$6c5973a0$96b61b97@administxl09yj>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040218221323.028d2d90@mail.comcast.net>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040219005529.03178e28@mail.comcast.net>
	<005c01c3f728$6c5973a0$96b61b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040219153753.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>


>Serafino cites:


>http://physicsweb.org/article/news/8/2/9
>and
>http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0201026

Good stuff! Here's another, more idiot-friendly, link (the kind I can 
*almost* understand):

http://www.quantum.univie.ac.at/links/newscientist/bit.html 




From naddy at mips.inka.de  Thu Feb 19 23:00:25 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:00:25 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: List of silly misconceptions
References: <LAW10-OE49MYk5XYA4I000185d1@hotmail.com>
	<000001c3f5e5$1c3531f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <c13f69$2mpn$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> I've heard that dolphins can be mean sons-a-bitches
> too, but no firsthand knowledge.

Google: dolphin rape bullying

=> http://outside.away.com/magazine/0999/199909outthere.html

Highlights:
* killing members of a related species for fun
* infanticide
* gang rape
* injuring people when sufficiently provoked    (can't blame 'em)

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From natasha at natasha.cc  Fri Feb 20 04:17:49 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:17:49 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] EVENT:  02/19/04 - Summit Online Discussion 
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040219201211.01d40010@mail.earthlink.net>

Friends,

Tonight's Event: Amara D. Angelica is leading a discussion on Ray 
Kurzweil's Summit Statement at 9:30 EST, 6:30 (west coat time.)

http://summit.extropy.org

Some introductory information:
http://www.extropy.org/summit.htm


Natasha Vita-More

----------
President, Extropy Institute
Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit ? on the Internet ?February 15-29, 2004
About the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org/summitabout.htm
Register for the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm
Your  generous donation of $15.00 will go toward producing the deliverables 
of the VP Summit and your name will be added to the list of supporters for 
Vital Progress.
----------
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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 19 21:03:41 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:03:41 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
References: <20040219002141.86427.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE50YWy6PhuQi00000692@hotmail.com>

That's it! Why bring myself forward when I am already there? If I did that,
it would not only create one of those nasty little paradox things, but also
I would lose all of the knowledge I had gained in the interim.Now I feel so
much better about it! It's obvious now that I will become immortal, so now I
can start skydiving! (No need to point out that stuff about altering my
future by knowing the future, etc)



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund


> Nah, that's not it. They've just read all the posts you've made on the
> internet (and will make in the future), and decided they just don't
> want to deal with a barbaric crotchedy great-nth-grandmonster. I know,
> that's what my decendants told me... ;)
>
> Another possible explaination is that you lived into the future, and
> your future self nixed the whole plan cause you don't want to have to
> deal with yourself... ;) If I were you I'd not complain. Imagine having
> to deal with your older self your whole life, always being treated
> condescendingly, him knowing all the answers and having all the
> cultural referents. Jerk would make it insufferable for you.
>
> I'd hate to be my own little brother...
>
> --- Kevin Freels <kevinfreels at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I already wrote a letter to my own descendents and placed it into a
> > safe-deposit box asking for someone from the future to come get me.
> > There
> > are instructions outside to pass on the care of the letter to the
> > next
> > descendent and all those things I could think of to make sure it gets
> > passed
> > on.
> >
> > Unfortunately, I am still here so I can only assume my letter never
> > made it,
> > or time-travel never will become possible....................
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> > To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 3:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Time Travel Fund
> >
> >
> > > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> > > > Note: Retrieving you just before
> > > > the moment of death is
> > > > just one possible scenario, but one that would avoid
> > > > any Star Trek(TM) type
> > > > paradoxes.
> > >
> > > Better option: retrieve from after the person goes
> > > into cryonic suspension.  Of course, that requires the
> > > person have cryonic suspension...in which case, from
> > > the person's point of view, death would be an
> > > immediate
> > > transport to a future revival as a posthuman even
> > > without time travel.  So, why spend resources on this
> > > alternate approach, if the chances of it ever
> > > suceeding
> > > are as low as they appear?
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 2/18/2004
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 2/18/2004


From hemm at br.inter.net  Fri Feb 20 12:20:00 2004
From: hemm at br.inter.net (Henrique Moraes Machado)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:20:00 -0300
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402190245480.1567-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <008501c3f7ab$dc3428e0$fe00a8c0@HEMM>

Why can't NASA sell publicity space on the shuttle? Maybe covered with publicity, just like the Formula 1 race cars, it could fly. At least it has more area to cover with ads than all cars in a F1 race together... :)
Just another crazy idea.

-----Mensagem Original----- 
De: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
Para: "Extropy Chat" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Enviada em: quinta-feira, 19 de fevereiro de 2004 08:08
Assunto: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...


| Ok, here are two very interesting articles on why the shuttle
| may never fly again and why it is essential to have them service
| the Hubble (by Zubrin no less...)...
| http://www.spacedaily.com/news/shuttle-04d.html
| and
| http://www.spacedaily.com/news/oped-04d.html
| The second is interesting because of Zubrin's words
| about the need for the Mars Society to be commited
| "to the search for truth".  I am *sooo* going to use those
| words to roast the Mars colonization idea if I ever
| get to do a presentation at a Mars Society meeting.
| (It might be the last meeting I am capable of attending
| and there are a couple of other presentations I might
| want to do first so I'm trying to figure out the
| best timing...).  :-;



From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 20 14:23:44 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:23:44 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] East African Rift Valley Flooding
Message-ID: <00b401c3f7bd$26509240$7bcd5cd1@neptune>

Looking at stories such as these:

http://www.terradaily.com/2004/040220012514.rvf05jya.html

I wonder if some of these small island nations might not be brought on
board to drum up support for flooding the East African Rift Valley.

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 20 14:30:10 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:30:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402190245480.1567-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<008501c3f7ab$dc3428e0$fe00a8c0@HEMM>
Message-ID: <00d201c3f7be$0c55c3a0$7bcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 20, 2004 7:20 AM Henrique Moraes Machado
hemm at br.inter.net wrote:
> Why can't NASA sell publicity space on the shuttle?
> Maybe covered with publicity, just like the Formula
> 1 race cars, it could fly. At least it has more area to
> cover with ads than all cars in a F1 race together... :)
> Just another crazy idea.

Not as crazy as you think.  Other space agencies sell such, e.g., RSA
actually does TV ads on the ISS.  It's funny how NASA is so rabidly
against getting money from such sources.  Probably institutionalized
elitism at work.

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From amara at amara.com  Fri Feb 20 14:24:48 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:24:48 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...
Message-ID: <p05100301bc5bbbf05ecb@[150.146.134.133]>

Dear Extropes,

Last Christmastime the Los Angeles Times published a series of articles
on the Columbia story by writer Robert Lee Hotz. Even though I know that
he probably had to add some sensationalist elements to make it into
a good newspaper story, he didn't need to embellish it very much because
it is a gripping story on its own. Plus I think that he is a talented
writer.

I jumped into the middle of the series last December, catching the story
regarding the impressive detective work by the astronomers. Here, allow
me to quote part of the story:

=========

The astronomer and the physicist were certain that the first debris fell not
over East Texas, where so much attention centered, but a thousand miles to
the west.

They enlisted Brian Kern, another astronomer from Caltech, and three experts
in space navigation from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena.

They called themselves the skunk team.

Beasley eventually counted 6,541 images and 34 video recordings of the
shuttle's last reentry, covering its entire flight path across the United
States.

Amateurs had taken them all.

Beasley and Dimotakis studied two shaky videos shot with camcorders.

Immediately, they noticed that in the first video, recorded by a man near
Reno, the shuttle passed Venus in the sky.

They seized the clue.

By knowing Columbia's planned trajectory, the relative position of the
planet and the constant rate of the video frames, they worked out the
timing, speed and direction of the flight to within a fraction of a second.

The second video was from Springville, Calif., near Sequoia National Forest.
In it, they spotted the star Deneb and the compass star Polaris. Other stars
- Alpha Cepheus, Vega and Beta Cassiopeia - could be plotted. This allowed
them to confirm the timing of the flashes and the position of the shuttle.

By enhancing the stars digitally and then working with the constellations
they revealed, the two men determined that Columbia's actual flight path had
been barely a mile off its predicted reentry. Navigation experts at the Jet
Propulsion Laboratory quickly confirmed their work.

The skunk team could then estimate the mass and size of the debris the
spacecraft was shedding.

By knowing the properties of the exotic materials used in shuttle
construction - recorded in three 22-year-old notebooks archived in the
Caltech library - they calculated how quickly each piece was left behind by
the spacecraft.

A theory took form.

=========

The scientific work of these three people used techniques that are
well known to meteorite researchers and amateurs who record (often
with video cameras) the meteors' entries and calculate their orbits
and, occasionally, search for the objects' fall location (and
sometimes succeed to find them). The work of these three was
particularly comprehensive and detailed and well-done, I thought.

Even though I know these techniques, to see it well-written in a
major newspaper, and more,  to know its importance in solving the
mystery of the shuttle explosion,  gave me goosebumps.

I saw the first landing of the First US spaceshuttle on April 12,
1981. I still have my photographs and I remember the crowd at
Edwards Air Force base. So then the birth and death of that tool for
discovery is close to my heart, and the whole story makes me sad.
Not for NASA, because I think that the problems with the space
agency are now clearer than ever, but I am sad that alot of human's
excitement and curiosity for exploring the universe have become
buried under politics and some dirty business and other activities.

But I continue to try to help keep alive the curiosity for exploring
the universe (or maybe it is just a selfish interest to share what
I like about it myself). Here are the links to the whole story.


Sunday, December 21, 2003
BUTTERFLY ON A BULLET
Decoding Columbia: A detective story
By Robert Lee Hotz
In an inquest fraught with questions of guilt and shame, scientists
unravel the mystery of a shuttle's demise.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-shuttle21dec21,0,4233726,print.story?coll=la-news-science

Monday, December 22, 2003
BUTTERFLY ON A BULLET
Curious outsiders get the jump on NASA
By Robert Lee Hotz
Columbia was a white butterfly bolted to a bullet.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-shuttle22dec22,0,5347840,print.story?coll=la-news-science


Tuesday, December 23, 2003
BUTTERFLY ON A BULLET
Exhuming Columbia, one piece at a time
By Robert Lee Hotz
Early investigators had to rely on informed guesswork. But clues were 
puring in.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-shuttle23dec23,0,6461954,print.story?coll=la-news-science


Wednesday, December 24, 2003
BUTTERFLY ON A BULLET
The fate of a wing shaped by politics
By Robert Lee Hotz
Fragments of Columbia were laid out on a vast concrete floor like 
broken bones on an
autopsy table.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-shuttle24dec24,0,7576068,print.story?coll=la-news-science


Thursday, December 25, 2003
BUTTERFLY ON A BULLET
Firing point-blank at NASA's illusions
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-shuttle25dec25,0,690189,print.story?coll=la-news-science


Friday, December 26, 2003
BUTTERFLY ON A BULLET
Swallowing the fire: Columbia's final voyage
By Robert Lee Hotz
It was at best a make-work mission.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-shuttle26dec26,0,1804303,print.story?coll=la-news-science



===================

Switching gears in a different view on this Columbia Story.

Edward Tufte is one of my heroes, and he has written alot recently
about why PowerPoint is one of the worst ways to communicate and
present information. While searching for something else, I stumbled
across these Columbia writings at his web site:

http://www.edwardtufte.com/ and  his bulletin board:
http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a?topic_id=1 ,

in particular: (related to the Columbia)

http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0000OR&topic_id=1&topic=Ask%20E%2eT%2e
http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0000Rs&topic_id=1&topic=Ask%20E%2eT%2e

especially this:
http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=0000jL&topic_id=1&topic=Ask%20E%2eT%2e

where he says:

{beginning quote}
page 191:
http://lfd.streamos.com/caib/report/web/full/caib_report_volume1.pdf
from the
Columbia Accident Investigation Board

"At many points during its investigation, the Board was surprised to
receive similar presentation slides from NASA officials in place of
technical reports. the Board views the endemic use of PowerPoint
briefing slices instead of technical papers as an illustration of
the problematic methods of technical communication at NASA."
{end quote}

This is one of those comitragedy things, isn't it?

Also, extropes, check this out!

http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/space


Have a good weekend,
Amara

-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"I couldn't read it because my parents forgot to pay the gravity
bill." --Calvin


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 20 16:17:42 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:17:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...
In-Reply-To: <00d201c3f7be$0c55c3a0$7bcd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <20040220161742.585.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> wrote:
> On Friday, February 20, 2004 7:20 AM Henrique Moraes Machado
> hemm at br.inter.net wrote:
> > Why can't NASA sell publicity space on the shuttle?
> > Maybe covered with publicity, just like the Formula
> > 1 race cars, it could fly. At least it has more area to
> > cover with ads than all cars in a F1 race together... :)
> > Just another crazy idea.
> 
> Not as crazy as you think.  Other space agencies sell such, e.g., RSA
> actually does TV ads on the ISS.  It's funny how NASA is so rabidly
> against getting money from such sources.  Probably institutionalized
> elitism at work.

Yeah, though imagine the howls from the anti-free market types if
Columbia had had such ads. They'd be screaming that Halliburton money
influenced NASAs decisions on reentering, blah blah blah...

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 20 16:27:53 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:27:53 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Aliens Cause Global Warming
Message-ID: <40363589.17C49797@mindspring.com>

< http://www.crichton-official.com/speeches/speeches_quote04.html >

Aliens Cause Global Warming

A lecture by Michael Crichton
Caltech Michelin Lecture
January 17, 2003

      My topic today sounds humorous but unfortunately I am serious. I am
going to argue that extraterrestrials lie behind global warming. Or to speak
more precisely, I will argue that a belief in extraterrestrials has paved
the way, in a progression of steps, to a belief in global warming. Charting
this progression of belief will be my task today.

      Let me say at once that I have no desire to discourage anyone from
believing in either extraterrestrials or global warming. That would be quite
impossible to do. Rather, I want to discuss the history of several
widely-publicized beliefs and to point to what I consider an emerging crisis
in the whole enterprise of science-namely the increasingly uneasy
relationship between hard science and public policy.

      I have a special interest in this because of my own upbringing. I was
born in the midst of World War II, and passed my formative years at the
height of the Cold War. In school drills, I dutifully crawled under my desk
in preparation for a nuclear attack.

      It was a time of widespread fear and uncertainty, but even as a child
I believed that science represented the best and greatest hope for mankind.
Even to a child, the contrast was clear between the world of politics-a
world of hate and danger, of irrational beliefs and fears, of mass
manipulation and disgraceful blots on human history. In contrast, science
held different values-international in scope, forging friendships and
working relationships across national boundaries and political systems,
encouraging a dispassionate habit of thought, and ultimately leading to
fresh knowledge and technology that would benefit all mankind. The world
might not be avery good place, but science would make it better. And it did.
In my lifetime, science has largely fulfilled its promise. Science has been
the great intellectual adventure of our age, and a great hope for our
troubled and restless world.

      But I did not expect science merely to extend lifespan, feed the
hungry, cure disease, and shrink the world with jets and cell phones. I also
expected science to banish the evils of human thought---prejudice and
superstition, irrational beliefs and false fears. I expected science to be,
in Carl Sagan's memorable phrase, "a candle in a demon haunted world." And
here, I am not so pleased with the impact of science. Rather than serving as
a cleansing force, science has in some instances been seduced by the more
ancient lures of politics and publicity. Some of the demons that haunt our
world in recent years are invented by scientists. The world has not
benefited from permitting these demons to escape free.

      But let's look at how it came to pass.

      Cast your minds back to 1960. John F. Kennedy is president, commercial
jet airplanes are just appearing, the biggest university mainframes have 12K
of memory. And in Green Bank, West Virginia at the new National Radio
Astronomy Observatory, a young astrophysicist named Frank Drake runs a two
week project called Ozma, to search for extraterrestrial signals. A signal
is received, to great excitement. It turns out to be false, but the
excitement remains. In 1960, Drake organizes the first SETI conference, and
came up with the now-famous Drake equation:

      N=N*fp ne fl fi fc fL

      Where N is the number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy; fp is the
fraction with planets; ne is the number of planets per star capable of
supporting life; fl is the fraction of planets where life evolves; fi is the
fraction where intelligent life evolves; and fc is the fraction that
communicates; and fL is the fraction of the planet's life during which the
communicating civilizations live.

...< %>< >...See URL above...

 
-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 20 20:23:52 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:23:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Aliens Cause Global Warming
In-Reply-To: <40363589.17C49797@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <20040220202352.10625.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Terry W. Colvin" <fortean1 at mindspring.com> wrote:
> Aliens Cause Global Warming
> 
> A lecture by Michael Crichton
> Caltech Michelin Lecture
> January 17, 2003
> 
>       My topic today sounds humorous but
> unfortunately I am serious. I am
> going to argue that extraterrestrials lie behind
> global warming. Or to speak
> more precisely, I will argue that a belief in
> extraterrestrials has paved
> the way, in a progression of steps, to a belief in
> global warming. Charting
> this progression of belief will be my task today.

And this is a classic example of how not to
communicate scientific topics.  Many of those who
might agree with the point will tune out before the
end of the first paragraph; many of those remaining
will be vociferously opposed to the point.  (Granted,
they may be the very people you're trying to convince
to change their ways.  But it won't get that much
support.)


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Feb 20 20:32:53 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:32:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402201223180.8583-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Scientists at CalTech seem to have discovered a new planetoid.

Designated 2004 DW, it is 1,800 miles in diameter compared with
Pluto which is 2,300 miles in diameter (astronomers/geologists are
going to have to start drawing very fine lines on is it or isn't
it a "planet").

Article:
http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/feb/20pluto.htm

The interesting point in the article from my perspective was
the comment that the Kuiper Belt objects contain 100x the amount
of material in the Asteroid Belt.  While the asteroid belt is
fine, most of the materials are silicates, iron and other heavy
metals.  In contrast the Kuiper Belt objects are likely to contain
significant amounts of carbon (as frozen CO and CO2).

So much carbon (for nanotech) -- so little time (as the solar
system ages...).

Robert




From joe at barrera.org  Fri Feb 20 21:17:00 2004
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:17:00 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
Message-ID: <4036794C.8000106@barrera.org>

I have an unexplainable fascination with the Kuiper Belt,
so naturally I have a daily google news alert.
This is what poured in today...

I think it's pretty clear we only have 8 planets,
and a bunch of planetesimals.

- Joe

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: 	Google News Alert - "kuiper belt"
Date: 	Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:15:11 -0800 (PST)
From: 	newsalerts-noreply at google.com
To: 	joe at barrera.org



PLANETARY scientists find planetoid in Kuiper Belt; could be ... 
Space Ref - USA
The planetoid, currently known only as 2004 DW, could be even larger than
Quaoar--the current record holder in the area known as the Kuiper Belt--and
is some ...
<http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=13689>
See all stories on this topic:
<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf8&client=google&num=30&newsclusterurl=http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html%3Fpid%3D13689>

US astronomers say they have found new frozen planetoid
Canoe.ca - Canada
... The object, dubbed 2004 DW, lies at the outer fringes of the Kuiper
Belt, a swarm of frozen rock and ice beyond the orbit of Neptune. ...
<http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/02/19/353769-ap.html>

MOON'S close encounters are a stargazer's delight
The Age - Melbourne,Victoria,Australia
... If the latter is true, it will be the biggest object discovered since
Pluto. The new object, called 2004 DW, was found in a region known as
the Kuiper Belt. ...
<http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/20/1077072838610.html>

LOOK for Dust to Find New Earths
Universe Today - USA
... Mars. They also have modeled the formation of the Kuiper Belt-a region
of small, icy and rocky objects beyond the orbit of Neptune. ...
<http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/look_dust_find_earths.html?2022004>

SCIENTISTS Discover Ice And Rock World Beyond Pluto
ShortNews.com - USA
Researchers say that there are many ice and rock worlds in the The Kuiper
Belt, beyond Pluto, and do not rule out the chances of finding one as
large as Pluto. ...
<http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=37211&rubrik1=Science&rubrik2=Natural%20Sciences&rubrik3=Astronomy&sort=1&sparte=4>

This daily-once News Alert is brought to you by Google News (BETA)...

-- 
Sweet dreams and flying machines
in pieces on the ground



From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Fri Feb 20 21:19:21 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:19:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402201223180.8583-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <001501c3f7f7$3624a5a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Yay!  I still predict that there are even larger objects in the Kuiper Belt.
These are older worlds that formed before our planets.  There are a LOT of
them.  Thousands of worlds waiting for colonization or assimilation.  They
have carbon, oxygen, water and organic compounds.  About 10% of them have
spawned moonlets which cause tidal forces that very well may heat up their
cores to form a liquid internal ocean.  Imagine thousands of Europa-type
oceans out there with the basic compounds for life.  I think that the Kuiper
Belt will be the most exciting frontier in the Solar System.  It also will
be the intermediate frontier on our way to the stars.  We will reach and
colonize thousands of these worlds before we will have much interstellar
travel.  They will form the launch point for future interstellar travel.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 20 21:39:50 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:39:50 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Shuttle will never fly...
References: <20040220161742.585.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <008e01c3f7fa$126995a0$bfcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 20, 2004 11:17 AM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
wrote:
>> Not as crazy as you think.  Other space
>> agencies sell such, e.g., RSA actually
>> does TV ads on the ISS.  It's funny how
>> NASA is so rabidly against getting money
>> from such sources.  Probably institutionalized
>> elitism at work.
>
> Yeah, though imagine the howls from the
> anti-free market types if Columbia had had
> such ads. They'd be screaming that
> Halliburton money influenced NASAs
> decisions on reentering, blah blah blah...

Probably.  The simple solution, is to privatize NASA and get rid of
government contracting all together.  Barring that, since NASA seems to
be a den of anti-free market types*, just making the ad vetting process
completely transparent.  (Part of the problem with Halliburton and VP
Cheney is a lot of this stuff happens behind closed doors, so it just
looks improper.)

Russia did fly a rocket with the Pizza Hut logo on it a few years ago.
I'm not sure how their process went to get that ad there -- or that it
would fly with the NASA bureaucracy.

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html

*  I haven't heard anyone at NASA try to keep commercialization out of
space because it would look improper.  I think they believe that
non-NASA people and projects in space are just to be tolerated not
encouraged.  Look at how the Agency fought tooth and nail against Dennis
Tito.  (They should be severely and brutally punished for that.)



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Feb 20 21:53:28 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:53:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] MARS: people behind the rovers
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402201343460.9307-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


NASA, in what is obviously a "pull on your heart strings piece",
has released an informative story about the scientists working
on the two rovers.

It brings back memories of '67.  Makes me wish I was down
at the JPL helping out if only to bring them coffee.

Source:
A Day In the Life of a Martian Scientist
http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/dayinthelife01.html

Robert





From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 20 22:05:40 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:05:40 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
References: <001501c3f7f7$3624a5a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <00e401c3f7fd$ae25b840$bfcd5cd1@neptune>

Why do they say it's "new"?  It's not like it formed yesterday...:)

Dan



From neptune at superlink.net  Fri Feb 20 22:21:32 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 17:21:32 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
References: <4036794C.8000106@barrera.org>
Message-ID: <010a01c3f7ff$e5786660$bfcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 20, 2004 4:17 PM Joseph S. Barrera III
joe at barrera.org wrote:
> I have an unexplainable fascination with the Kuiper Belt,
> so naturally I have a daily google news alert.
> This is what poured in today...
>
> I think it's pretty clear we only have 8 planets,
> and a bunch of planetesimals.

Define "planet" and "planetesimal" in a way that's not circular to your
division of the solar system.  It might be better to say there's a bunch
of different stuff orbiting the Sun.  Some of that stuff fits well into
the category of rocky bodies, some fits into gas bodies, and some into
frozen volatile bodies.  Some of each of these three categories is big
enough to demand special attention.  Well, true, there don't seem to be
any gas midgets -- just gas giants.:)  But there are rocky bodies like
the Earth and those in the asteroid belt and there are frozen bodies
like comets and KBOs.

I can see a fuzzy, but helpful line between planet and star and the
differentiation between planet/planetesimal is likewise helpful, but
there will always be marginal cases, don't you think?

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Feb 20 22:39:58 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:39:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <001501c3f7f7$3624a5a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402201409340.11050-100000@server.aeiveos.com>

B
Harvey offered some comments on my comments about Kuiper Belt
objects, from which I will extract:

> These are older worlds that formed before our planets.

That really isn't clear.  This involves a very complex discussion
of the evolution of solar nebula and the star itself.  I do not
claim to be an expert in these areas but from what I have read
it seems to me that a lot depends on the density and material
structure of the nebula.  Depending on the conditions internal
structures (be they stars or planets) may aggregate before
external structures.  Or the conditions may be reversed.

If the star forms rapidly and heats up the nebula it may reduce
the opportunity for early external structure formation.  If
the star forms slowly, there may be a greater chance that
external masses may aggregate.

> About 10% of them have spawned moonlets which cause tidal forces that
> very well may heat up their cores to form a liquid internal ocean.

While I will grant that this is possible I haven't seen any papers
suggesting that tidal forces between planets and moons will provide
sufficient heat.  For example, it does not seem to be the case that the
moon is doing it with the Earth to a significant degree.  I have no
problem with the theory of the comment (for example Jupiter seems to be
doing it with Europa) -- I would just like a little bit more physics to go
along with the suggestion so one could quantify the extent of
gravitational heating effects.  Such information would be critical
to such areas such as the volume of an ocean, periods that it remains
unfrozen, etc.  We are having problems working these things out for
even Mars (when and for how long might it have had an ocean) which we
certainly have much more data about.  So raising these possibilities
for planetoids seems to be very risky.

Of course Harvey and I may differ on whether we will "colonize"
these planetoids or dismantle them but that is a minor difference
of opinion in the grand scheme of things.  The primary thing to note
is *where* the carbon on the solar system is likely to be and the
value of that carbon (from an economic or developmental standpoint).

Robert



From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Fri Feb 20 23:20:49 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:20:49 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402201409340.11050-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000701c3f808$2dc0e930$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote,
> Harvey offered some comments on my comments about Kuiper Belt 
> objects, from which I will extract:
> 
> > These are older worlds that formed before our planets.
> 
> That really isn't clear.

All of the references I read on Kuiper Belt objects state that they are
primitive left-overs from the early solar system formation, before the
planetesimals in the inner solar system formed or combined into planets.  I
don't know of any theories that form planets first and Kuiper Belt objects
later.

> > About 10% of them have spawned moonlets which cause tidal 
> > forces that very well may heat up their cores to form a
> > liquid internal ocean.
> 
> While I will grant that this is possible I haven't seen any 
> papers suggesting that tidal forces between planets and moons 
> will provide sufficient heat.

There is some evidence that Pluto itself may have a liquid core due to its
moon Chiron.

See <http://www.planetary.org/html/UPDATES/Pluto/plutoeuropa.html>.  It
states that these objects are the oldest in the solar system.  It also
describes hints that Pluto might have an internal liquid ocean like Europa.

> Of course Harvey and I may differ on whether we will 
> "colonize" these planetoids or dismantle them but that is a 
> minor difference of opinion in the grand scheme of things.  
> The primary thing to note is *where* the carbon on the solar 
> system is likely to be and the value of that carbon (from an 
> economic or developmental standpoint).

I doubt that all KBOs will be disassembled before one is colonized, or that
all will be colonized before one is disassembled.  Therefore, it seems
obvious that both options will occur.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From naddy at mips.inka.de  Sat Feb 21 00:27:35 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:27:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402201223180.8583-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <c168ln$14nr$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Robert J. Bradbury <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:

> Designated 2004 DW, it is 1,800 miles in diameter compared with
> Pluto which is 2,300 miles in diameter (astronomers/geologists are
> going to have to start drawing very fine lines on is it or isn't
> it a "planet").

As Eric Max Francis regularly points out on rec.arts.sf.science,
planets are those celestial bodies that have been designated as
planets by the IAU.  There is no objective definition.  And yes,
if you try to come up with one, Pluto probably won't rate.  But
Pluto has been declared a planet by fiat and this is unlikely to
change.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From neptune at superlink.net  Sat Feb 21 00:37:54 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:37:54 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
References: <000701c3f808$2dc0e930$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <01ea01c3f812$f2ee2920$bfcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 20, 2004 6:20 PM Harvey Newstrom
mail at HarveyNewstrom.com wrote:
>>> These are older worlds that formed before our planets.
>>
>> That really isn't clear.
>
> All of the references I read on Kuiper Belt
> objects state that they are primitive left-
> overs from the early solar system
> formation, before the planetesimals in
> the inner solar system formed or combined
> into planets.  I don't know of any theories
> that form planets first and Kuiper Belt objects
> later.

I hate to have to agree with Harvey -- in public, no less:) -- but I've
had much the same experience.  Even recent articles in _Nature_ -- and
I'm not using this to browbeat anyone, but merely to give a barometer of
the state of the field -- do not contend that KBOs formed later than the
planets and the main area of research seems to be in finding how they
got into their orbits.

Perhaps I'm not as well read as Robert on this subject and he could just
cite the sources on the rival view that the KBOs formed after the
planets.  (No sarcasm intended.  I don't follow this burgeoning field as
closely as I should and appreciate any assistance in this area.)

> I doubt that all KBOs will be disassembled
> before one is colonized, or that all will be
> colonized before one is disassembled.
> Therefore, it seems obvious that both
> options will occur.

I agree again!  This is unprecendented!  Soon others will accuse me of
some sort of detente if not an actual alliance.  I imagine that Robert
will be breaking diplomatic relations with me soon...:)

But seriously, I plan to, if I'm around and have the capability, to grab
a few for myself.  I especially want to get the one with the [9 words
deleted].  After that, well, [7 words deleted].  [12 words deleted].
You never know, but I think the [3 words deleted] will be [3 words
deleted].  I plan to [5 words deleted].

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 02:11:46 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:11:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <c168ln$14nr$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040221021146.16180.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> Robert J. Bradbury <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> 
> > Designated 2004 DW, it is 1,800 miles in diameter compared with
> > Pluto which is 2,300 miles in diameter (astronomers/geologists are
> > going to have to start drawing very fine lines on is it or isn't
> > it a "planet").
> 
> As Eric Max Francis regularly points out on rec.arts.sf.science,
> planets are those celestial bodies that have been designated as
> planets by the IAU.  There is no objective definition.  And yes,
> if you try to come up with one, Pluto probably won't rate.  But
> Pluto has been declared a planet by fiat and this is unlikely to
> change.

It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round

Those who dislike this definition because it results in 'too many'
planets are obsessive compulsive neatniks who need to get a grip.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From joe at barrera.org  Sat Feb 21 02:18:37 2004
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:18:37 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <20040221021146.16180.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040221021146.16180.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4036BFFD.2050003@barrera.org>

Mike Lorrey wrote:

 >It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
 >a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
 >b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round

What is "round"?

- Joe



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 02:21:24 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 18:21:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <4036BFFD.2050003@barrera.org>
Message-ID: <20040221022124.5954.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe at barrera.org> wrote:
> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
>  >It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
>  >a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
>  >b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round
> 
> What is "round"?

Spherical

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
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From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Feb 21 04:51:36 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 20:51:36 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Event: Precautionary Principle Featured at VP Summit
	Tonight!
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040220204446.01d936a0@mail.earthlink.net>

Greetings!

This evening is the on-line chat discussing/debating Prof. Michael D. 
Shapiro's statement in response to the use of the Precautionary Principle 
as a rallying tool against biotechnology.  Join in at 
http://summit.extropy.org and go to the "Chat."


"...a plausible precautionary principle would counsel us to take 
precautions in adopting any given current version of a precautionary 
principle." (Shapiro, 2004)


A little about Prof. Shapiro:  Professor of Law, University of Southern 
California Law School; Visiting Professor, Yale Law School; Member, Pacific 
Council for Health Policy and Ethics; Reviewer, U.S. Department of Energy 
(Proposals to Study the Human Genome Project), 1990-92; Advisory Panel to 
the Joint Committee on Surrogate Parenting of the California Legislature, 1989.


Don't let the futrue stop progress!


Natasha Vita-More

----------
President, Extropy Institute
Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit ? on the Internet ?February 15-29, 2004
About the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org/summitabout.htm
Register for the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm
Your  generous donation of $15.00 will go toward producing the deliverables 
of the VP Summit and your name will be added to the list of supporters for 
Vital Progress.
----------
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From jcorb at iol.ie  Sat Feb 21 02:54:10 2004
From: jcorb at iol.ie (J Corbally)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 02:54:10 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] TEST: Post XP migration, no text, ignore <EOM>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.1.20040221025308.01c22e58@pop.iol.ie>






From neptune at superlink.net  Sat Feb 21 03:10:26 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:10:26 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
References: <20040221022124.5954.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <020d01c3f828$41dba5c0$bfcd5cd1@neptune>

On Friday, February 20, 2004 9:21 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
wrote:
>> Mike Lorrey wrote:
>>
>>  >It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
>>  >a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
>>  >b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round
>>
>> What is "round"?
>
> Spherical

No planet seems perfectly spherical/round, but would you then say Ceres
is a planet?  IIRC, it looks round.

Also, can it be said that the Earth has an independent orbit since the
Moon impacts its orbit so much?  Certainly, Luna impacts Earth's orbit
much more than any other IAU defined planet's moon(s) save for Pluto.
While I'd still call Earth a planet -- and Pluto too:) -- I see them --
Earth-Luna and Pluto-Charon -- as special cases.

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 21 03:06:40 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:06:40 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Aliens Cause Global Warming
In-Reply-To: <20040220202352.10625.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006001c3f827$b9f4d870$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> > A lecture by Michael Crichton
> > Caltech Michelin Lecture
> > January 17, 2003
> > 
> > ...I am going to argue that extraterrestrials lie behind
> > global warming...
> 
> And this is a classic example of how not to
> communicate scientific topics.  Many of those who
> might agree with the point will tune out before the
> end of the first paragraph...

Point taken, but this is a special case: Chrichton name 
and reputation facilitates the entry of his memes into 
the audience's collective mind.  That's the only reason 
I read his lecture, and I am not a particular fan of his.  

I do like ER however.  {8-]

spike



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 21 03:13:39 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:13:39 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <4036794C.8000106@barrera.org>
Message-ID: <006a01c3f828$b4198ee0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


> Joseph S. Barrera III
> Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
> 
> 
> I have an unexplainable fascination with the Kuiper Belt,
> so naturally I have a daily google news alert.
> This is what poured in today...
> 
> I think it's pretty clear we only have 8 planets,
> and a bunch of planetesimals.
> 
> - Joe

Depends on how you count them.  I would argue that our
own Luna should count as a planet, for altho it appears
to orbit the Earth, it is more correctly co-orbitting
the sun with the Earth.  That way we are back up to nine.

spike






From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 21 03:21:54 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:21:54 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <001501c3f7f7$3624a5a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <006b01c3f829$dac53250$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Harvey Newstrom
> Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
> 
> 
> Yay!  I still predict that there are even larger objects in 
> the Kuiper Belt... Harvey Newstrom, ...

Ja, there's no telling how far that Kuiper Belt goes.
There could be a bunch of Plutesimals out there.

Harvey, I never realized why you took such interest
in Pluto.  It's because it is carbon rich?  That
would make it valuable real estate indeed.  I expect 
carbon will eventually be the most valuable element 
of all, being the most versatile.  spike



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 21 03:35:48 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:35:48 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <4036BFFD.2050003@barrera.org>
Message-ID: <006c01c3f82b$cc035b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

 
> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
>  >It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
>  >a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
>  >b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round
> 
> What is "round"?
> 
> - Joe


And what is "independent"?  Any definition that would
exclude Luna would also take out Earth.

spike



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 05:45:31 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:45:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <020d01c3f828$41dba5c0$bfcd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <20040221054531.41289.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Technotranscendence <neptune at superlink.net> wrote:
> On Friday, February 20, 2004 9:21 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
> wrote:
> >> Mike Lorrey wrote:
> >>
> >>  >It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
> >>  >a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
> >>  >b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round
> >>
> >> What is "round"?
> >
> > Spherical
> 
> No planet seems perfectly spherical/round, but would you then say
> Ceres is a planet?  IIRC, it looks round.

Minor distortions due to centor of mass/center of angular momentum
imbalances, as well as tidal influences, are irrelevant. 


> 
> Also, can it be said that the Earth has an independent orbit since
> the Moon impacts its orbit so much?  Certainly, Luna impacts Earth's
> orbit much more than any other IAU defined planet's moon(s)
> save for Pluto.
> While I'd still call Earth a planet - and Pluto too:) - I see them
> - Earth-Luna and Pluto-Charon - as special cases.

The distortion of Earth's orbit does not exceed the boundaries even of
the earth's core. The center of angular momentum is only a few meters
from the center of the earth, or so I've heard. The primary influence
of both Earth's and Pluto's moons are tectonic rather than orbital.

I would say that Earth is a planet in a unique situation which likely
is the primary reason it is the only planet with significant and easily
detectable ecosystems: it was grazed by a planetesimal that never
either bonded to Earth or escaped its grasp, allowing a significant
amount of its primordial lithosphere to be peeled off, eventually
accreting around that planetesimal, the moon. That moon has also had a
continuing influence in being the root cause of the geomagnetic dynamo
that generates Earth's large magnetic field and shielding radiation
belts.

Pluto may exhibit similar but less significant effects, but certainly
not much different than we will likely find on Europa and Ganymede,
which are tidally influenced by Jupiter.

All of this, however, is irresepective of the planetary status of Earth
or Pluto. They are the overwhelmingly major bodies in their orbit, in
size and mass, they are spherical to such a degree that naked eye
observation could not ascertain and significant deviation. They are
therefore planets.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sat Feb 21 05:51:47 2004
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:51:47 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Birthday Wish list
References: <006c01c3f82b$cc035b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <005701c3f83e$cb6a7bc0$b7be1218@Nano>

Just a heads up, my birthday is on Monday the 23rd, and all I want is an AFM............ : )


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 06:00:02 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 22:00:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <006c01c3f82b$cc035b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040221060002.96508.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:
>  
> > Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > 
> >  >It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
> >  >a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
> >  >b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round
> > 
> > What is "round"?
> > 
> > - Joe
> 
> 
> And what is "independent"?  Any definition that would
> exclude Luna would also take out Earth.

Picking nits. What is the overwhelmingly major mass in any given orbit?
Any body of significantly less mass orbiting that major mass is a moon,
and the major mass is a planet, if it is spherical due to its own
gravity.

Now, the ancients considered the Moon to be a planet, actually THE
chief planet, since it was the largest in the sky, and second only to
the Sun in cosmological importance. Of course, this is an entirely
primitive, geo-centric point of view. We should  strive to avoid such.

"[The Moon] is only one-fourth the size of the Earth, having a diameter
of 3,476 km (2,318 miles); which is less than the distance across the
United States. The volume of the moon is about 1/50 of the Earth. The
Earth and its moon could be considered twin planets compared to huge
planet like Jupiter and Saturn, which are 40 or 50 times larger than
their biggest moons [ an odd statement to make, since the volume of the
Moon is 1/50th of the Earth, and the mass of the Moon is 1/80th that of
Earth]. The moon's mass is about 0.012 times that of the Earth (7.35 x
1022 kg) [msl comment - the Earth's mass is therefore 80 times that of
the Moon]. The moon's gravity is one-sixth that of the Earth."
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2002/AdaLi.shtml

It is clear that the Moon is not a co-planet of the earth. While it is
certainly larger in diameter than some planets like Mercury or Pluto,
it is, unfortunately, a significantly minor player in the Earth's
orbit. That is its own fault for hitting the earth so poorly in our
early history. It remains Earth's familiar, never an independent entity.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From sjvans at ameritech.net  Sat Feb 21 07:24:29 2004
From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 01:24:29 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alcor Legislative Alert
Message-ID: <1077348268.1100.125.camel@Renfield>


Forwarded:

If you are a member of Alcor and live in Arizona, please see the link
below for instruction on how you can help stop the Stump bill. If the
Stump bill passes, Alcor will fall under the jurisdiction of the Funeral
Board. The Director of the Funeral Board was quoted in the New York
Times on 11/14/2003: "These companies need to be regulated or
deregulated out of business." The passage of the Stump bill will
ultimately affect your right to choose, so please help us stop this
bill.

http://www.alcor.org/legislativealert.html

Thank you,



Mathew Sullivan (mathew at alcor.org)
Cryopreservation Readiness Coordinator

Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr., Suite 110, Scottsdale AZ 85260-6916
Membership Information: (877) GO-ALCOR (462-5267)
Phone (480) 905-1906 FAX (480) 922-9027
info at alcor.org for general requests



From twodeel at jornada.org  Sat Feb 21 07:09:07 2004
From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:09:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <20040221060002.96508.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402202308150.2251-100000@hplx.net>

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> The Earth and its moon could be considered twin planets compared to huge
> planet like Jupiter and Saturn, which are 40 or 50 times larger than
> their biggest moons [ an odd statement to make, since the volume of the
> Moon is 1/50th of the Earth, and the mass of the Moon is 1/80th that of
> Earth].

Why is it odd?  They're not talking about volume or mass when they say "40
or 50 times larger."



From twodeel at jornada.org  Sat Feb 21 07:19:14 2004
From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield)
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:19:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <20040221054531.41289.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402202318180.2251-100000@hplx.net>

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> The distortion of Earth's orbit does not exceed the boundaries even of
> the earth's core. The center of angular momentum is only a few meters
> from the center of the earth, or so I've heard.

I thought it was almost 4,900km from the center of the earth.  Or is that 
just the center of gravity?



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 21 13:23:04 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 05:23:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402202318180.2251-100000@hplx.net>
Message-ID: <20040221132304.18657.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Don Dartfield <twodeel at jornada.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > The distortion of Earth's orbit does not exceed the boundaries even
> of
> > the earth's core. The center of angular momentum is only a few
> meters
> > from the center of the earth, or so I've heard.
> 
> I thought it was almost 4,900km from the center of the earth.  Or is
> that 
> just the center of gravity?

Perhaps we have a problem with terms here. What would you call the
point which both earth and the moon orbit around?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From neptune at superlink.net  Sat Feb 21 14:45:40 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:45:40 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
References: <20040221132304.18657.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007f01c3f889$610177c0$7dcd5cd1@neptune>

On Saturday, February 21, 2004 8:23 AM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
wrote:
>>> The distortion of Earth's orbit does not exceed the
>>> boundaries even of the earth's core.

Wrong!  The Earth's core (inner and outer) is about 2200 km wide.

>>> The center of angular momentum is only a few
>>> meters
>>> from the center of the earth, or so I've heard.
>>
>> I thought it was almost 4,900km from the center
>> of the earth.  Or is
>> that
>> just the center of gravity?
>
> Perhaps we have a problem with terms here. What would you call the
> point which both earth and the moon orbit around?

The term is barycenter.  It's located about 4641 km from the center of
the Earth -- in the direction of the Moon obviously:) -- and this puts
it closer to the Earth's surface than to the Earth's center and outside
the core.  (Earth's radius is about 6400 km.)

Anyhow, the barycenter is the center of mass for the Earth-Moon system.
Both Earth and Moon orbit it -- in a manner of speaking.:)

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From twodeel at jornada.org  Sat Feb 21 14:41:50 2004
From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 06:41:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <20040221132304.18657.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402210611340.2251-100000@hplx.net>

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> Perhaps we have a problem with terms here. What would you call the point
> which both earth and the moon orbit around?

I've usually heard it called "center of gravity" or "center of mass" or
"barycenter."  That point is the one I was referring to -- 4900km from
the center of the earth.  Well, 4877km, apparently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_of_mass

Obviously that is still inside the earth, but Pluto and Charon, and
Jupiter and the Sun, have barycenters outside of the larger body, so they
really do look like they orbit a common point rather than just having the
larger body appear to wobble while the smaller body orbits it.



From neptune at superlink.net  Sat Feb 21 14:56:46 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 09:56:46 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
References: <20040221054531.41289.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00a001c3f88a$edd2db20$7dcd5cd1@neptune>

On Saturday, February 21, 2004 12:45 AM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com
wrote:
>> >>  >It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
>> >>  >a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
>> >>  >b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round
>> >>
>> >> What is "round"?
>> >
>> > Spherical
>>
>> No planet seems perfectly spherical/round,
>> but would you then say Ceres is a planet?
>> IIRC, it looks round.
>
> Minor distortions due to centor of mass/center of angular momentum
> imbalances, as well as tidal influences, are irrelevant.

You misunderstand.  I wasn't disagreeing with you.  I thought you meant
round within limits.  Obviously, the Earth is round when compared to
Eros.:)

But what about Ceres?  Planet or no?  It looks round to me.  Let me take
a look again.  Yep.  Well, it's close enough that you wouldn't notice
from this distance.

> > Also, can it be said that the Earth has an independent orbit since
> > the Moon impacts its orbit so much?  Certainly, Luna impacts Earth's
> > orbit much more than any other IAU defined planet's moon(s)
> > save for Pluto.
> > While I'd still call Earth a planet - and Pluto too:) - I see them
> > - Earth-Luna and Pluto-Charon - as special cases.
>
> The distortion of Earth's orbit does not exceed the boundaries even of
> the earth's core. The center of angular momentum is only a few meters
> from the center of the earth, or so I've heard. The primary influence
> of both Earth's and Pluto's moons are tectonic rather than orbital.

See my other post on this.  The barycenters of both planets are far
enough from their centers to be noticed.  This is not the case with,
say, Mars.

> All of this, however, is irresepective of the planetary status of
Earth
> or Pluto. They are the overwhelmingly major bodies in their orbit, in
> size and mass, they are spherical to such a degree that naked eye
> observation could not ascertain and significant deviation. They are
> therefore planets.

Pluto is too far away for naked eye observations to notice a deviation.

However, if you're going to use the naked eye as the arbiter here, then
you're either amending or even disposing of your definition.  It all
seems rather arbitrary, but, as I've mentioned before, the lines are
quite fuzzy here.  I'm prepared to stick with convention and call Pluto
and Earth planets, Charon and Luna moons, Ceres an asteroid, etc. but
only for convenience and I'm prepared to alter such distinctions when
they become inconvenient.

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sat Feb 21 18:22:37 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 10:22:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: real progress
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402210940230.534-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Well, we finally have some real progress on understanding aging.

It looks like SIRT1 (homologue of yeast Sir2), regulates FOXO3
which in turn regulates the enzymes that resist oxidative stress.

Science Daily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040220081158.htm
PubMed Abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14976264&dopt=Abstract

Now *before* everyone gets all excited please note that the
gene regulation goes against apoptosis (programmed cell death)
and for stress resistance (particularly from free radicals).
That is probably a reasonable strategy in short lived animals
(which include most that scientists work on in labs).

However in long lived larger organisms one does not want to suppress
apoptosis (because it will probably lead to an increase in cancer).
In long lived species one needs to allow apoptosis or improve the
ability of the immune system to recognize and eliminate cancer cells
(which people are working on).  One also needs to promote stem cell
replacement of lost cells (which we have some of but it probably isn't
as finely tuned as one would like).

But it is clear that this provides a key piece of the puzzle as
to how cells manage the repair/replicate/die decision processes.
Now whether the actions of FOXO3 on apoptosis and stress resistance
have been split in longer lived organisms (so one has 2 genetic
programs under individual controls rather than just a combined
genetic program with only 1 control factor) remains to be seen.

Robert




From jpnitya at sapo.pt  Sun Feb 22 03:15:18 2004
From: jpnitya at sapo.pt (Joao Magalhaes)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:15:18 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: real progress
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402210940230.534-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040221185513.02643130@pop.sapo.pt>

Hi!

I don't want to be the skeptic around here but I should remind you that 
there is NO evidence SIRT1 is in anyway involved in human aging. Yes, in 
yeast sir2 is involved in cell cycle regulation--which is not the same as 
aging. Maybe sir2 is involved in aging of C. elegans but results from 
Drosophila and mice do not suggest any involvement of SIRT1 in aging. Since 
drosophila and mice are biologically closer to humans than c. elegans and 
yeast, I'm skeptical that SIRT1 plays a role in human aging.

As for the Forkhead family, these transcription factors are very much 
involved in development, so it is normal that they affect redox potential 
and apoptosis. Nevertheless, I wouldn't be surprised if they were involved 
in mammalian aging since p66 has been associated with the forkhead family. 
Yet the connection to human aging is not clear because of cancer. After 
all, yeast, drosophila and c. elegans don't have cancer and mice have much 
higher cancer incidences. So we must be very careful in extrapolating this 
sort of data into humans.

-- End of skeptical message --

Joao

At 10:22 21-02-2004 -0800, you wrote:

>Well, we finally have some real progress on understanding aging.
>
>It looks like SIRT1 (homologue of yeast Sir2), regulates FOXO3
>which in turn regulates the enzymes that resist oxidative stress.
>
>Science Daily:
>http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040220081158.htm
>PubMed Abstract:
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14976264&dopt=Abstract
>
>Now *before* everyone gets all excited please note that the
>gene regulation goes against apoptosis (programmed cell death)
>and for stress resistance (particularly from free radicals).
>That is probably a reasonable strategy in short lived animals
>(which include most that scientists work on in labs).
>
>However in long lived larger organisms one does not want to suppress
>apoptosis (because it will probably lead to an increase in cancer).
>In long lived species one needs to allow apoptosis or improve the
>ability of the immune system to recognize and eliminate cancer cells
>(which people are working on).  One also needs to promote stem cell
>replacement of lost cells (which we have some of but it probably isn't
>as finely tuned as one would like).
>
>But it is clear that this provides a key piece of the puzzle as
>to how cells manage the repair/replicate/die decision processes.
>Now whether the actions of FOXO3 on apoptosis and stress resistance
>have been split in longer lived organisms (so one has 2 genetic
>programs under individual controls rather than just a combined
>genetic program with only 1 control factor) remains to be seen.
>
>Robert
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

Joao Magalhaes (joao.magalhaes at fundp.ac.be)

Website on Aging: http://www.senescence.info
Reason's Triumph: http://www.jpreason.com  



From mathew at alcor.org  Sat Feb 21 19:20:43 2004
From: mathew at alcor.org (Mathew Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:20:43 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Attention Alcor Members of Arizona,
	help us stop the Stump Bill
Message-ID: <3318.207.254.7.127.1077391243.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>

If you are a member of Alcor and live in Arizona, please see the link
below  for instruction on how you can help stop the Stump bill.  If the
Stump bill  passes, Alcor will fall under the jurisdiction of the Funeral
Board.  The  Director of the Funeral Board was quoted in the New York
Times on  11/14/2003: "These companies need to be regulated or deregulated
out of  business."  The passage of the Stump bill will ultimately affect
your right  to choose, so please help us stop this bill.

http://www.alcor.org/legislativealert.html

Thank you,



Mathew Sullivan (mathew at alcor.org)
Cryopreservation Readiness Coordinator

Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr., Suite 110, Scottsdale AZ 85260-6916
Membership Information: (877) GO-ALCOR (462-5267)
Phone (480) 905-1906 FAX (480) 922-9027
info at alcor.org for general requests

<http://www.alcor.org/>http://www.alcor.org

The Alcor Life Extension Foundation was founded in 1972 as a non-profit,
tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization, and has 59 patients in cryostasis.
Alcor is the world's largest provider of professional cryotransport
services with over 660 members who have pre-arranged for cryotransport.
Alcor's Emergency CryoTransport System (ECS) is a medical-style rescue
network patterned after Emergency Medical System (EMS). Alcor
CryoTransport Technicians, as with EMTs and Paramedics on an ambulance,
are advised by our
Medical Director, Jerry Lemler MD or other physicians who are Alcor
members and/or contract physicians.


If you start everything...
you will finish nothing.


From jpnitya at sapo.pt  Sun Feb 22 03:32:33 2004
From: jpnitya at sapo.pt (Joao Magalhaes)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:32:33 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alice's Dilemma
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040221193151.024bc0c0@pop.sapo.pt>

Dear friends,

Those of you interested in the Singularity and technological progress may 
want to read my latest article, "Alice's Dilemma", which was recently 
published by the journal Futures. It is a general introduction to the 
Singularity, its dangers and opportunities. It's freely available online at:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6V65-49272TM-1-1&_cdi=5805&_orig=browse&_coverDate=02%2F29%2F2004&_sk=999639998&view=c&wchp=dGLbVtb-zSkWz&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=6bfb336c5355e5bfc8ea1d3d1fc40b30&ie=f.pdf

Comments are always welcomed.

All the best,

Joao


Joao Magalhaes (joao.magalhaes at fundp.ac.be)

Website on Aging: http://www.senescence.info
Reason's Triumph: http://www.jpreason.com  



From natasha at natasha.cc  Sat Feb 21 21:36:54 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:36:54 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] VP Summit - Weekend Chats: Feature Bailey, Freitas,
 Stock and Walford
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040221133102.02c67020@mail.earthlink.net>

Greetings!

Here is the VP Summit chats for today (Saturday), Sunday and Monday:


SATURDAY 02.21.04

Chat starting 4:30pm PST/6:30 CST/7:30 EST
On the Keynote Statements by both Ronald Bailey and Robert Freitas on the 
President's Bioethics Council and related issues.


SUNDAY 02.22.04

Chat starting 4:30pm PST/6:30 CST/7:30 EST
Discussion of Keynote by Greg Stock


MONDAY 02.23.04

Chat starting 6:30pm PST/8:30 CST/9:30 EST
Discussion of Keynote by Roy Walford


Don't let the future stop progress!


Natasha Vita-More

----------
President, Extropy Institute
Join the Vital Progress ("VP") Summit ? on the Internet ?February 15-29, 2004
About the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org/summitabout.htm
Register for the VP Summit http://www.extropy.org/membership.htm
Your  generous donation of $15.00 will go toward producing the deliverables 
of the VP Summit and your name will be added to the list of supporters for 
Vital Progress.
----------
-------------- next part --------------
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From jacques at dtext.com  Sat Feb 21 20:35:31 2004
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:35:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alice's Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040221193151.024bc0c0@pop.sapo.pt>
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040221193151.024bc0c0@pop.sapo.pt>
Message-ID: <4037C113.4030301@dtext.com>

Joao Magalhaes wrote:

> Dear friends,
> 
> Those of you interested in the Singularity and technological progress 
> may want to read my latest article, "Alice's Dilemma", which was 
> recently published by the journal Futures. It is a general introduction 
> to the Singularity, its dangers and opportunities. It's freely available 
> online at:
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=MImg&_imagekey=B6V65-49272TM-1-1&_cdi=5805&_orig=browse&_coverDate=02%2F29%2F2004&_sk=999639998&view=c&wchp=dGLbVtb-zSkWz&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_userid=10&md5=6bfb336c5355e5bfc8ea1d3d1fc40b30&ie=f.pdf 

Sorry, but I don't think this is a good article. Introductions to such 
big topics are interesting, because the author has to go to the basics 
and provide his own perspective. But I found no original nor personal 
element here, nor even a particularly rigorous thinking.

Two minor flaws (there can't be major flaws as nothing new is 
presented): First the title: what you describe is not a dilemma at all. 
Second, you quote Kaczynski as defending the position that technology 
can be controlled or prohibited. He actually defends, at great length, 
the exact contradictory position: that it cannot be controlled nor 
prohibited. (Hence his particular agenda, which is destruction.) He 
would laugh at Bill Joy's call to relinquishment.

Jacques




From jacques at dtext.com  Sat Feb 21 21:02:31 2004
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:02:31 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] VP Summit - Weekend Chats: Feature Bailey, Freitas,
	Stock and Walford
In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040221133102.02c67020@mail.earthlink.net>
References: <5.2.0.9.0.20040221133102.02c67020@mail.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4037C767.1030007@dtext.com>

Natasha Vita-More wrote:

> Greetings!
> 
> Here is the VP Summit chats for today (Saturday), Sunday and Monday:
> 
> 
> SATURDAY 02.21.04
> 
> Chat starting 4:30pm PST/6:30 CST/7:30 EST
> On the Keynote Statements by both Ronald Bailey and Robert Freitas on 
> the President's Bioethics Council and related issues.
> 
> 
> SUNDAY 02.22.04
> 
> Chat starting 4:30pm PST/6:30 CST/7:30 EST
> Discussion of Keynote by Greg Stock
> 
> 
> MONDAY 02.23.04
> 
> Chat starting 6:30pm PST/8:30 CST/9:30 EST
> Discussion of Keynote by Roy Walford

Why do all these chats always end up in the middle of the night for 
Europeans? :-) By the way, a convenient way of letting people know about 
a time independent from time zones is the Fixed Time World Clock. E.g. 
here is the timing for the chat about Walford:

<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=23&month=2&year=2004&hour=18&min=30&sec=0&p1=137>

Jacques



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sat Feb 21 20:59:47 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 12:59:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: real progress
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040221185513.02643130@pop.sapo.pt>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402211231510.4477-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Joao (Hi!), I have no problem with your comments regarding the
involvement of SIRT1/sir2 in higher organisms (because I know of
no evidence for such involvement as you point out).

But I would offer the idea that it is very very difficult for
Nature/evolution to change course.  So *if* the apoptosis/stress
response pathways were linked to each other very early on in
evolution I would propose that it would be difficult for them
to become separated.  Not impossible mind you -- which is why
I'm slowly pushing behind the scenes to get a number of long-lived
genomes sequenced -- so we can have the data to figure this out.
What I strongly suspect is that there are "patches" on the apoptosis
program that may decouple it from the stress response program.

With respect to the cancer incidences -- one has to have an organism
that can actually get cancer.  Yeast clearly can't and probably
C. elegans and Drosophila as well.  Cancer is a direct result
of a failure of the program of the regulatory processes of cell
replication in organisms that have enough cells for this to be important.
This probably involves a delicate balance -- in organisms with enough
cells you want to kill off those that are replicating out of control.
In that case you want to replace those cells so there is presumably
a pool of cells biased towards replication (when necessary).  In
my opinion, it doesn't take too much for that situation to get out
of control (which is why cancer causes ~30% of deaths).  (IMO)

But good comments.  If you would care to expand on the p66 involvement
I'd be interested in reading them on/off list.  (I know what it is
but don't have current knowledge with respect to where it fits into
the big picture.)

I would guess the short summary of my previous message is that they
now have a strong candidate for the regulation of at least the stress
response -- it isn't going to take that long to confirm that or blow
it out of the water (even for higher mammals).  That is why I called
it "real progress".  Ultimately, it may not prove to be progress from
a biochemical standpoint -- but it is going to open the door somewhat
wider towards nailing these pathways down.

Robert




From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sat Feb 21 21:06:29 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 13:06:29 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Attention Alcor Members of Arizona,
	help us stop the Stump Bill
References: <3318.207.254.7.127.1077391243.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c3f8be$936bdc20$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

RE writes:

>Hmm, doesn't look like a particularly formidable rotting tree remnant
standing between me and my continuing quest for life, liberty, and
happiness, lemme just come over there and poke it with my boot.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mathew Sullivan" <mathew at alcor.org>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 11:20 AM
Subject: [extropy-chat] Attention Alcor Members of Arizona,help us
stop the Stump Bill


> If you are a member of Alcor and live in Arizona, please see the
link
> below  for instruction on how you can help stop the Stump bill.  If
the
> Stump bill  passes, Alcor will fall under the jurisdiction of the
Funeral
> Board.  The  Director of the Funeral Board was quoted in the New
York
> Times on  11/14/2003: "These companies need to be regulated or
deregulated
> out of  business."  The passage of the Stump bill will ultimately
affect
> your right  to choose, so please help us stop this bill.
>
> http://www.alcor.org/legislativealert.html
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Mathew Sullivan (mathew at alcor.org)
> Cryopreservation Readiness Coordinator
>
> Alcor Life Extension Foundation
> 7895 E. Acoma Dr., Suite 110, Scottsdale AZ 85260-6916
> Membership Information: (877) GO-ALCOR (462-5267)
> Phone (480) 905-1906 FAX (480) 922-9027
> info at alcor.org for general requests
>
> <http://www.alcor.org/>http://www.alcor.org
>
> The Alcor Life Extension Foundation was founded in 1972 as a
non-profit,
> tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization, and has 59 patients in
cryostasis.
> Alcor is the world's largest provider of professional cryotransport
> services with over 660 members who have pre-arranged for
cryotransport.
> Alcor's Emergency CryoTransport System (ECS) is a medical-style
rescue
> network patterned after Emergency Medical System (EMS). Alcor
> CryoTransport Technicians, as with EMTs and Paramedics on an
ambulance,
> are advised by our
> Medical Director, Jerry Lemler MD or other physicians who are Alcor
> members and/or contract physicians.
>
>
> If you start everything...
> you will finish nothing.



From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sat Feb 21 21:20:58 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:20:58 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <20040221021146.16180.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <006501c3f8c0$9cd77100$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Mike Lorrey wrote,
> It is actually rather easy to define a planet:
> a) it has its own independent orbit around the sun, and,
> b) its own internal gravity has caused it to be round

I agree that this is a simple definition that works.  People can nitpick the
wording to get it right, but the meaning is clear.  For "a", I would say it
orbits the sun instead of another planet.  For "b", it could be defined by a
specific roundness measurement, or could be defined geologically as accreted
on its own into a round shape and not a piece broken off another planet.
Historically, the round planetoids are old and formed early, while the
non-round ones are more recent fragments from collisions

> Those who dislike this definition because it results in 'too 
> many' planets are obsessive compulsive neatniks who need to 
> get a grip.

Yes, but as a futurist and sci-fi buff, I like a lot of planets.  This is my
primary interest in the Kuiper-Belt Object.  They give us thousands of
planet(oid)s to explore that are close to earth without requiring
interstellar travel.  This is more planets than some Star Trek type sci-fi
envisioned for our region of the galaxy.

This is cool stuff!

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 






From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sat Feb 21 21:35:27 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 16:35:27 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <006b01c3f829$dac53250$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <006601c3f8c2$a298c290$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Spike,
> Harvey, I never realized why you took such interest
> in Pluto.  It's because it is carbon rich?  That
> would make it valuable real estate indeed.  I expect 
> carbon will eventually be the most valuable element 
> of all, being the most versatile.  spike

No.  I must confess that my interest in Pluto-type planetoids is not for the
carbon.  It is for sci-fi purposes of predicting the future.  We have
thousands of worlds much closer to our solar system than we knew of a decade
or two ago.  We now can colonize thousands of worlds with interplanetary
spaceships without having to invent interstellar travel or FTL ships.  These
planet(oid)s also have water, hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon.  Many have
organic molecules and may even have internal pockets of liquid water!  

This is the most likely place to find life, the oldest type of planet, and
the most common planet.  This means that in the universe, these are the most
common types of habitable worlds.  We also now know that Oort clouds and
Kuiper Belts are normal structures around stars.  This means that while we
continue to search for rare Earth-type planets, we already know where there
are thousands of Pluto-type planets *per* *star* in most cases!

Their close proximity means that massive parallel colonization is much
closer (both in distance and time) than we could have predicted before.
These worlds will be the primary space frontier.  We will colonize thousands
of these before reaching many (if any) stars.  Furthermore, we will reach
these Pluto-type planets around other stars before diving down into their
gravity wells to reach their planets.  This means that even in interstellar
travel, these worlds will be reached first.

For every earth-type world that exists in our far-future, I envision
thousands or tens of thousands of Pluto-type worlds.  Many transhumanists of
the future will have their own little ice world somewhere for their own
personal use.  They have low gravity for cheaper space flight, but strong
enough for normal human activities.  They are close enough to reach with
normal space ships, but far enough away to be a frontier.  They are numerous
enough for everybody or each primary group to have their own.

Simply put, I think these Pluto-type planets are our future.  (I should
probably create a fan site for these worlds!)

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Sat Feb 21 21:50:29 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:50:29 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alice's Dilemma
Message-ID: <4037D2A5.4080601@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Sat Feb 21, 2004 01:35 pm JDP wrote:
> Sorry, but I don't think this is a good article. Introductions to such
> big topics are interesting, because the author has to go to the basics
> and provide his own perspective. But I found no original nor personal
> element here, nor even a particularly rigorous thinking.
>

I think you are being rather too harsh here. Don't take this article out
of context. Joao did not write this for extropians. He is speaking to an
intelligent readership (of Futures magazine) who have not really thought
very much about the Singularity. So he has to try and break the news to
them very gently, with plenty of references for further research.

Did you notice that the very next article after his was entitled -
'Integrated 1000-year planning'? As though the world is going to go
along in much the same fashion for the next thousand years! That is the
mind-set that articles like this have to try and break through.

Just try and get the basics into their heads, try and get them to start
thinking that maybe things will change quicker than they expect.

And I thought the article did that very successfully.

BillK




From joe at barrera.org  Sat Feb 21 22:17:01 2004
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:17:01 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <006601c3f8c2$a298c290$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
References: <006601c3f8c2$a298c290$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <4037D8DD.9040103@barrera.org>

Harvey Newstrom wrote:

>  Simply put, I think these Pluto-type planets are our future. (I
>  should probably create a fan site for these worlds!)

(Wow, and I thought I was the only KBO nut.)

I have some links on my (neglected) Wiki at:

http://www.barrera.org/wiki/bin/view.pl/Main/Space

I've been waiting for a reason to register quaoar.org...
we could make that a KBO site with a more futurist
bent than the existing sites.

- Joe



From extropy at unreasonable.com  Sat Feb 21 22:37:04 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:37:04 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <006601c3f8c2$a298c290$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
References: <006b01c3f829$dac53250$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040221170717.01c2a0d8@mail.comcast.net>

Harvey wrote:

>... We now can colonize thousands of worlds with interplanetary
>spaceships without having to invent interstellar travel or FTL ships ...
>
>... We also now know that Oort clouds and Kuiper Belts are normal 
>structures around stars ...

>Their close proximity means that massive parallel colonization is much
>closer (both in distance and time) than we could have predicted before.
>These worlds will be the primary space frontier.  We will colonize thousands
>of these before reaching many (if any) stars.  Furthermore, we will reach
>these Pluto-type planets around other stars before diving down into their
>gravity wells to reach their planets.  This means that even in interstellar
>travel, these worlds will be reached first.

Moreover, they are convenient stepping stones.

We've debated and fantasized about star travel for most of a century, down 
to the recent thread about the utility of interstellar exploration for a 
foo-Brain.

Absent a cheap, hand-waving magic physics, interstellar travel is presumed 
to be expensive. Either a high energy cost propulsive system or a 
long-duration flight (generation ship or suspended animation or immortals 
or robotic).

But. The coolest thing to me about Kuiper and Oort is the possibility of 
their ubiquity. If Proxima Centauri has an Oort cloud, it will overlap 
ours. We don't need a trillion-dollar starship or an FTL drive. The 
natural, gradual processes of wanting some elbow room when civilization is 
too cramping or wondering what's over the next hill that spread us across 
this planet can spread us to the stars -- in planetoid-sized hops.


-- David Lubkin.




From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sat Feb 21 22:49:12 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:49:12 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cool: Cancer Killing Nano
References: <4037D2A5.4080601@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <002c01c3f8cc$ed320140$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=725

And doubly so to see it unveiled by a US Congressman. Very American.
Very Extropic.

RE



From joe at barrera.org  Sat Feb 21 22:51:18 2004
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 14:51:18 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Yet more about KBO 2004 DW
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040221170717.01c2a0d8@mail.comcast.net>
References: <006b01c3f829$dac53250$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040221170717.01c2a0d8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <4037E0E6.8020605@barrera.org>

Here's a very nice article, including this tidbit: "We've traced 2004 DW 
back to November 23, 1954, when it was photographed as part of the first 
Palomar Sky Survey" and also a bit about getting a better estimate of 
its size in the next couple of weeks via the IRAM telescope in Spain.

- Joe

http://www.astronomy.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/001/670eqmni.asp

2004 DW: The largest Kuiper Belt Object?
Astronomers discover an icy world at the fringes of the solar system.
by Francis Reddy


Icy discovery: Is 2004 DW the largest KBO?
Courtesy Chad Trujillo, Gemini Observatory
Posted February 20, 2004

Astronomers at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech) and Yale 
University discovered an icy world at the outer fringes of the solar 
system on February 17. The object, currently known only as 2004 DW, may 
be the largest find in the solar system since 1930, the year astronomers 
discovered Pluto.

The object currently lies 4.4 billion miles (7.1 billion kilometers) 
away from Earth. Its orbital tilt, about 20.6?, is larger even than that 
of Pluto, which itself has an unusually high orbital inclination ? far 
larger than any other planet.

"We've traced 2004 DW back to November 23, 1954, when it was 
photographed as part of the first Palomar Sky Survey," says codiscoverer 
Chad Trujillo of the Gemini Observatory in Hawaii. The team, which 
included Mike Brown of Caltech and David Rabinowitz of Yale University, 
found the new object using the same 48-inch (1.2 meter) Schmidt 
telescope on Palomar Mountain, California, used for that survey. 
Astronomers at Australia's Siding Spring Observatory also found 2004 DW 
on a pre-discovery photograph taken November 8, 1951. Thanks to these 
images, Trujillo told Astronomy, "We know the orbit much better now. 
It's quite similar to Pluto's."

The object's distance from the Sun varies between 30.9 AU and 48.1 AU. 
One AU, or astronomical unit, equals the Earth's average distance from 
the Sun: 93 million miles (150 million km).

The object takes 248 years to complete its orbit and reached its 
farthest point from the Sun in 1989. It's now inbound, Trujillo says, 
"But don't hold your breath ? it won't reach perihelion until 2113."

The team found the object one day short of the 74th anniversary of when 
Pluto was discovered, February 18, 1930. That's appropriate because 2004 
DW's orbit places it in a class of icy objects sometimes called 
"plutinos." These objects occupy Pluto-like orbits in the Kuiper Belt, a 
collection of frozen worldlets circling the solar system in a realm 
beyond Neptune. Astronomers have cataloged some 800 Kuiper Belt Objects 
(KBOs) since 1992.

Until the discovery of 2004 DW, the largest-known KBO was an object 
named Quaoar, which was discovered in 2002 by Brown and Trujillo. With 
an estimated diameter of 780 miles (1,250 km), Quaoar is larger than 
Pluto's moon Charon and has a volume big enough to hold all 50,000 of 
the numbered asteroids in the solar system.

Because astronomers know the distance to 2004 DW, its brightness should 
indicate its size relative to Quaoar if both objects reflect the same 
proportion of sunlight. At the moment, says Trujillo, 2004 DW appears to 
be about 870 miles (1,400 km) across, making it the new record holder. 
"We'll be attempting to measure that in the next week or two with the 
IRAM telescope in Spain," Trujillo adds. This is the same heat-sensitive 
telescope Trujillo and Brown previously used to refine estimates of 
Quaoar's size. In addition, the team will attempt to obtain images with 
the Hubble Space Telescope and, possibly, the Spitzer Space Telescope.

Both Brown and Trujillo believe on the basis of statistical arguments 
that a few objects larger than Pluto eventually will be found in the 
Kuiper Belt. "Since there are only a few really large ones, you have to 
cover a lot of sky to find them," explains Trujillo. "We have a 
dedicated program to find objects like this in the outer solar system." 
For a few hours each night, the team images the sky with the 
170-million-pixel QUEST CCD camera attached to the 48-inch Schmidt 
telescope.

"If Pluto were discovered today, it would be called a Kuiper Belt 
Object, not a planet," adds Trujillo. "Scientists have not yet created a 
good definition of planet that encompasses the Kuiper Belt."
"It's now only a matter of time before something is going to be 
discovered out there that will change our entire view of the outer solar 
system," Mike Brown notes.




From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sat Feb 21 23:03:50 2004
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:03:50 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Attention Alcor Members of Arizona,
	help us stop the Stump Bill
References: <3318.207.254.7.127.1077391243.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
	<000a01c3f8be$936bdc20$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <02b601c3f8ce$f81cbc10$b7be1218@Nano>

This is a very, very important issue. If this bill is passed it will mean that the powers that be, will have the authrority to regulate and refuse the renewal of license(s) to continue services. The same requirements that apply to a funeral establishment will also be required of Cryonic suspension facilities. As you know, the discrepencies in processes are substatially different between the two, thus it is easy to foresee that the understanding of terms will generate a divide in the future and with this bill standing, there will be no way for us to defend against any actions that may be taken in response to these variables. This legislation could threaten our rights to be suspended and the rights of those that already are in suspension. Since the hearing will be held on the 26th we need to act now. Please see the Alcor Legislative Alert webpage for contact info, that was in the original message sent to our list. My husband will be flying down to speak at the hearing. I on the otherhand need to stay home with the dog, but I am sending a written letter with him and will be sending it via the email links listed on the webpage as well. If you are signed up, are interested in, or just wish to protect the option of cryonic suspension, please help, as many voices as possible are needed. Thank you, Gina Miller



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Russell Evermore 
  To: mathew at alcor.org ; ExI chat list 
  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 1:06 PM
  Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Attention Alcor Members of Arizona,help us stop the Stump Bill


  RE writes:

  >Hmm, doesn't look like a particularly formidable rotting tree remnant
  standing between me and my continuing quest for life, liberty, and
  happiness, lemme just come over there and poke it with my boot.


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Mathew Sullivan" <mathew at alcor.org>
  To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 11:20 AM
  Subject: [extropy-chat] Attention Alcor Members of Arizona,help us
  stop the Stump Bill


  > If you are a member of Alcor and live in Arizona, please see the
  link
  > below  for instruction on how you can help stop the Stump bill.  If
  the
  > Stump bill  passes, Alcor will fall under the jurisdiction of the
  Funeral
  > Board.  The  Director of the Funeral Board was quoted in the New
  York
  > Times on  11/14/2003: "These companies need to be regulated or
  deregulated
  > out of  business."  The passage of the Stump bill will ultimately
  affect
  > your right  to choose, so please help us stop this bill.
  >
  > http://www.alcor.org/legislativealert.html
  >
  > Thank you,
  >
  >
  >
  > Mathew Sullivan (mathew at alcor.org)
  > Cryopreservation Readiness Coordinator
  >
  > Alcor Life Extension Foundation
  > 7895 E. Acoma Dr., Suite 110, Scottsdale AZ 85260-6916
  > Membership Information: (877) GO-ALCOR (462-5267)
  > Phone (480) 905-1906 FAX (480) 922-9027
  > info at alcor.org for general requests
  >
  > <http://www.alcor.org/>http://www.alcor.org
  >
  > The Alcor Life Extension Foundation was founded in 1972 as a
  non-profit,
  > tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization, and has 59 patients in
  cryostasis.
  > Alcor is the world's largest provider of professional cryotransport
  > services with over 660 members who have pre-arranged for
  cryotransport.
  > Alcor's Emergency CryoTransport System (ECS) is a medical-style
  rescue
  > network patterned after Emergency Medical System (EMS). Alcor
  > CryoTransport Technicians, as with EMTs and Paramedics on an
  ambulance,
  > are advised by our
  > Medical Director, Jerry Lemler MD or other physicians who are Alcor
  > members and/or contract physicians.
  >
  >
  > If you start everything...
  > you will finish nothing.

  Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
  Nanotechnology Industries
  http://www.nanoindustries.com
  Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
  Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
  Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
  Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html
  Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
  "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
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From jacques at dtext.com  Sat Feb 21 23:09:11 2004
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:09:11 +0100
Subject: On Popularization (was Re: [extropy-chat] Alice's Dilemma)
In-Reply-To: <4037D2A5.4080601@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
References: <4037D2A5.4080601@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4037E517.1090401@dtext.com>

BillK wrote:

> On Sat Feb 21, 2004 01:35 pm JDP wrote:
> 
>> Sorry, but I don't think this is a good article. Introductions to such
>> big topics are interesting, because the author has to go to the basics
>> and provide his own perspective. But I found no original nor personal
>> element here, nor even a particularly rigorous thinking.
>>
> 
> I think you are being rather too harsh here. Don't take this article out
> of context. Joao did not write this for extropians. He is speaking to an
> intelligent readership (of Futures magazine) who have not really thought
> very much about the Singularity. So he has to try and break the news to
> them very gently, with plenty of references for further research.
> 
> Did you notice that the very next article after his was entitled -
> 'Integrated 1000-year planning'? As though the world is going to go
> along in much the same fashion for the next thousand years! That is the
> mind-set that articles like this have to try and break through.

Okay.

But let me make a general point. Writing an introduction to such a thing 
is a challenge, and it should be taken as such, trying to be rigorous, 
and seeing if you really believe the stuff yourself and why, instead of 
rehashing general elements on autopilot.

Popularization can be extremely fruitful if it is rigorous. The Selfish 
Gene by Richard Dawkins was written as popularization. It's often more 
challenging to do a "basic introduction" than to write on some very 
focused, technical issue.

Of course, not everyone is Dawkins. But not everyone needs to write 
introductions, either. When someone hears about something for the first 
time, the quality of the introduction he reads first can have a big 
impact on the interest he will have. Think education: would you tell 
your child rehashed stuff on autopilot about important things because he 
doesn't know anything anyway?

I have found that every time I talk with someone about some 
transhumanist-related issue, I try to find new ideas and metaphors 
unique to our dialogue, and to take seriously whatever she will tell me, 
finding something interesting and challenging in it even if it sounds 
like the same silly objection you've heard 200 times before.

I use it as an opportunity to think, instead of getting bored at 
restating things in ways already old to me. And it has much more impact, 
too, because the person feels that the thinking is original and alive, 
not borrowed or ossified. So it's more useful to us both.

Try to think new and better every time. Don't let "the Singularity" 
become like a familiar little plastic castle in your extropian mental 
playground. It's idiotic, whatever your audience.

Jacques




From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sat Feb 21 23:20:47 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:20:47 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040221170717.01c2a0d8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <001001c3f8d1$59ecf2a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

David Lubkin wrote,
> Absent a cheap, hand-waving magic physics, interstellar 
> travel is presumed to be expensive. Either a high energy
> cost propulsive system or a long-duration flight (generation
> ship or suspended animation or immortals or robotic).
> 
> But. The coolest thing to me about Kuiper and Oort is the 
> possibility of their ubiquity. If Proxima Centauri has an Oort
> cloud, it will overlap ours. We don't need a trillion-dollar
> starship or an FTL drive. The natural, gradual processes of
> wanting some elbow room when civilization is too cramping or
> wondering what's over the next hill that spread us across 
> this planet can spread us to the stars -- in planetoid-sized hops.

Yes!  I see the structure of the universe's habitable planet(oid)s as a
matrix of the bubble-shaped Oort Clouds covering the galaxy, with big empty
spaces down in the gravety wells around stars.  This is totally different
from traditional futurist thinking about interstellar travel to other
planets.  I also see the little hops spreading out in all directions, and
not the big hops across empty space that most sci-fi has described.  The
future is totally different than what we had predicted.  There are more
worlds, closer worlds, smaller hops, and lower technology requirements than
we earlier imagined.  This has made me more confident of future interstellar
expansion than ever before.  These Pluto-type worlds are the interstellar
worlds of the future.  They far outnumber the classical planets by hundreds
of thousands to one.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 






From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sat Feb 21 23:35:15 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:35:15 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cool: Cancer Killing Nano
In-Reply-To: <002c01c3f8cc$ed320140$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <001701c3f8d3$5c7698d0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Russell Evermore wrote,
> 
> <http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=725> 

I can't tell from this article whether this actually exists or is just
predicted for the future.  Any specific details?  This would be amazing if
we could use this technology.

I note that they attack "bioprobes", whatever they are, to antibodies.  It
may be that the antibodies themselves seek out the cancer cells, but lack
the power to destroy the cancer effectively enough.  The bioprobes may just
be metal nanoparticles that heat up in a strong magnetic field.

I almost hope that the method is this simplistic.  Although it would be
disappointing that the "bioprobes" are really just metal particles, and the
seeking process is natural antibodies and not artificial, the simplistic
nature of this process would make it more applicable wide-scale and toward
other diseases.  We could piggyback on any antibody and then use that
natural pathway to target our magnetic fields.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sat Feb 21 23:37:06 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:37:06 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cool: Cancer Killing Nano
In-Reply-To: <002c01c3f8cc$ed320140$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <001801c3f8d3$a1634010$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Russell Evermore wrote,
> <http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=725>

I am slightly disturbed that this was developed by the military first and
diverted to medical uses later.  I hope this wasn't part of a
nanotech/biotech weapon.  Anyway, it fits in with my predictions that the
government/military complex will lead the way in nanotech advances.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 





From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Sun Feb 22 00:36:40 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:36:40 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Will the West be left behind?
Message-ID: <4037F998.2000905@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

<http://news.com.com/2030-1069_3-5162352.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=news>

Behind the Asian outsourcing phenomenon

Cnet has an article from McKinsey Quarterly from this year?s Consumer
Electronics Show about how US companies are offshoring jobs.

The point they make is that companies are not just doing this to cut costs.

"To most executives in the United States and Europe, offshoring means
cheaper wage rates for labor-intensive activities. These cost savings
are real, but some Asian companies can also offer superior performance."

"Wage rate differentials generate cost savings, of course, but the
really compelling gains come from pairing savings with top-flight skills."

"U.S. original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) began by moving relatively
unskilled assembly operations offshore, often farming them out to
electronics-manufacturing services, such as Celestica, Flextronics and
Solectron. Increasingly, these OEMs have come to rely on offshore
companies to provide related services in product design, sourcing and
inventory management."


If these Asian countries offer lower wages AND superior performance AND
a less-restrictive legal environment, the future does look pretty gloomy
for the West.

BillK





From reason at longevitymeme.org  Sun Feb 22 01:53:57 2004
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:53:57 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: real progress
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402211231510.4477-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNGEPGEEAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>

I posted this exchange to Fight Aging!
http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000024.php

Isn't it amazing that we live in an age when we can have these sorts of
detailed conversations about unraveling the way in which aging works? Even
more amazing is that I'd guess all the specific questions brought up in the
conversation will be answered within a couple of years at the current rate
of progress. When it comes to figuring out what specific genes and pathways
do, things are getting very fast and cheap indeed.

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme



From mathew at alcor.org  Sun Feb 22 02:00:39 2004
From: mathew at alcor.org (Mathew Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:00:39 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Stump - Alcor Member
In-Reply-To: <200402212300.i1LN0nTI021063@titan.spiretech.com>
References: <200402212300.i1LN0nTI021063@titan.spiretech.com>
Message-ID: <3465.207.254.7.102.1077415239.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>

Alcor only found out recently and is now actively pursuing the problem.
Our efforts to resolve the problem are being done through our lobbyist and
attorney.  There is a fair amount of activity and progress taking place,
but I'm not able to disclose much information. We have sent out mail to
our AZ members and it should be arriving soon, and we plan to contact them
by phone the first part of the week.  More information should be coming
out this week after our attorney reviews the material.

Mathew Sullivan

> Unless you have some secret information on why this is
> NOT as big a problem as it appears to be, I REALLY don't
> understand why you're being so lowkey in fighting it.
>
> I only found out about this via word-of-mouth. I hear that
> you only emailed AZ residents (trying to save postage
> or something?) This is a BIG MISTAKE. There are lots of
> members out here and this affects all of us. I myself know
> at least four people planning on moving to AZ in the next
> few years and it's ONLY to be near Alcor. I'm going to email
> your congress-critters about this and I fail to see why ALL
> the members doing likewise wouldn't help.
>
> Personally, I think you should contact all of your scientific
> and medical advisors and tell them it's time to put up or
> shut up and get their butts over to Phoenix and hold a damn
> press conference. But then, maybe I'm alone in seeing this
> as a life and death issue...




From reason at longevitymeme.org  Sun Feb 22 02:09:38 2004
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 18:09:38 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Stump - Alcor Member
In-Reply-To: <3465.207.254.7.102.1077415239.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNCEPHEEAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>

I've posted it to the Longevity Meme today, and will put it up as an action
item this weekend...

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Mathew
> Sullivan
> Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 6:01 PM
> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Stump - Alcor Member
>
>
> Alcor only found out recently and is now actively pursuing the problem.
> Our efforts to resolve the problem are being done through our lobbyist and
> attorney.  There is a fair amount of activity and progress taking place,
> but I'm not able to disclose much information. We have sent out mail to
> our AZ members and it should be arriving soon, and we plan to contact them
> by phone the first part of the week.  More information should be coming
> out this week after our attorney reviews the material.
>
> Mathew Sullivan
>
> > Unless you have some secret information on why this is
> > NOT as big a problem as it appears to be, I REALLY don't
> > understand why you're being so lowkey in fighting it.
> >
> > I only found out about this via word-of-mouth. I hear that
> > you only emailed AZ residents (trying to save postage
> > or something?) This is a BIG MISTAKE. There are lots of
> > members out here and this affects all of us. I myself know
> > at least four people planning on moving to AZ in the next
> > few years and it's ONLY to be near Alcor. I'm going to email
> > your congress-critters about this and I fail to see why ALL
> > the members doing likewise wouldn't help.
> >
> > Personally, I think you should contact all of your scientific
> > and medical advisors and tell them it's time to put up or
> > shut up and get their butts over to Phoenix and hold a damn
> > press conference. But then, maybe I'm alone in seeing this
> > as a life and death issue...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From duggerj1 at charter.net  Sun Feb 22 02:16:28 2004
From: duggerj1 at charter.net (duggerj1 at charter.net)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:16:28 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Birthday Wish List
Message-ID: <200402220215.i1M2FKhH019175@mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net>

Saturday, 20 December 2004

Hello all,

     Gina--would you mind a "some assembly required" STM? University of Muenster's Interface Physics Groups has mail-order kits for EURO 888, if you live outside Germany. 

http://sxm4.uni-muenster.de/stm-en/

     If no one takes the hint, don't feel bad. I didn't get one either.

STM kits by mail! What an age!

Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/
Sometimes the delete key serves best.



From naddy at mips.inka.de  Sun Feb 22 02:20:47 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 02:20:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
Message-ID: <c193lv$2p7p$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

(This is only mildly futuristic, but hey, I don't see people talking
about it.)

Many of us love our credit cards, debit cards, checks, bank transfers,
etc, that allow us to perform monetary transactions without having
to move bundles of cash around.  However, these methods all leave
a data trail behind and--at least in their current implementations--
suffer from transaction fees that make them uneconomical for small
payments.  For these reasons, cash is still popular and desirable.

Now, I recently caught something on TV which reminded me of a looming
crisis that doesn't appear to receive much public attention yet:

Counterfeiting is going to kill traditional cash real soon now.

While much of the current counterfeit money that enters circulation
may still not stand up to closer inspection by a layman, the best
of the crop here in Europe is now in practice indistinguishable
from genuine money.  Of course experts can still recognize the
forgeries, but consumers, merchants, and banktellers cannot.  The
problem isn't so much creating enhanced security features that are
hard to duplicate, as it is creating features that can still be
readily verified with the plain old human sensorium.  We're at the
end of the road here.

You never hear much about who the counterfeiters are.  "From Eastern
Europe".  This reminds me of a guy I knew, who was involved with a
print shop, and who related the story that they once sat down and
had a try at duplicating paper money (scaled in size, to be on the
safe side) just to see whether they could.  Supposedly it didn't
prove very difficult.  Any competent print shop should be able to
produce plausible counterfeit money.  Okay, so that was a couple
of years ago, but progress doesn't seem to favor the central banks
there.  There are many trained printers in the world.

Cash will have to grow an electronic component or become wholly
electronic.  However, there are also strong interests on the part
of law enforcement and the spooks to get rid of anonymous cash
altogether (think tax evasion, money laundering, and the wonderful
possibilities of plain transaction profiling).  I don't know where
the banks are on this and what the overall balance of interests
ends up like.  Will cash go away completely?

So, what _is_ the future of cash?

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From natasha at natasha.cc  Sun Feb 22 04:35:30 2004
From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:35:30 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Attention Alcor Members of Arizona, help us
	stop the Stump Bill
In-Reply-To: <02b601c3f8ce$f81cbc10$b7be1218@Nano>
References: <3318.207.254.7.127.1077391243.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
	<000a01c3f8be$936bdc20$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040221203333.03815a00@mail.earthlink.net>

At 03:03 PM 2/21/04 -0800, Gina Miller wrote:
>This is a very, very important issue. If this bill is passed it will mean 
>that the powers that be, will have the authrority to regulate and refuse 
>the renewal of license(s) to continue services. The same requirements that 
>apply to a funeral establishment will also be required of Cryonic 
>suspension facilities. As you know, the discrepencies in processes are 
>substatially different between the two, thus it is easy to foresee that 
>the understanding of terms will generate a divide in the future and with 
>this bill standing, there will be no way for us to defend against any 
>actions that may be taken in response to these variables. This legislation 
>could threaten our rights to be suspended and the rights of those that 
>already are in suspension. Since the hearing will be held on the 26th we 
>need to act now.

I just received an email from Greg Fahy about it.  It time permits, I will 
forward it to the list.

Please go to http://www.alcor.org/legislativealert.html

Natasha

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From robwilkes at satx.rr.com  Sun Feb 22 03:04:33 2004
From: robwilkes at satx.rr.com (Rob Wilkes)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:04:33 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Time Travel
Message-ID: <01C3F8BE.4EFA3140.robwilkes@satx.rr.com>

What do you think about the following scenario: At some point in the future 
a time travel (of sorts) is developed where information from the past can 
be retrieved in complete detail (e.g. molecular detail).  If a decison was 
made to retrieve a person from the past, and the technology to construct a 
person from that information existed then a person could be brought to the 
future by reassembling them from thier past information "signature."  Sort 
of like Star Trek transporter technology "beaming" a person from the past 
to the future.  If there was the capacity in the future to assimilate these 
reassembled folks then as many people could be retireved as desired. 
Information could be captured at the point of that person's death and a new 
body could be constructed.  Perhaps only congnitive and memory aspects 
would be replicated exactly, while the body was replaced with a healthy 
one.  Does this start to sound like resurrection and afterlife?  So, let's 
see.  We, the decendents of nth grandmother Bessie decide to "retrieve" her 
from the past.  She arrives in the future to be greeted by us (her 
descendents) and other "retrieved" family members.  Sort of the ultimate 
family reunion.  Note that in this scenario no one interferes with the 
past, they just "read it", and replicate the desired parts.



From dgc at cox.net  Sun Feb 22 03:22:25 2004
From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:22:25 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Birthday Wish List
In-Reply-To: <200402220215.i1M2FKhH019175@mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net>
References: <200402220215.i1M2FKhH019175@mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net>
Message-ID: <40382071.3030106@cox.net>

duggerj1 at charter.net wrote:

>Saturday, 20 December 2004
>
>Hello all,
>
>     Gina--would you mind a "some assembly required" STM? University of Muenster's Interface Physics Groups has mail-order kits for EURO 888, if you live outside Germany. 
>
>http://sxm4.uni-muenster.de/stm-en/
>
>     If no one takes the hint, don't feel bad. I didn't get one either.
>
>STM kits by mail! What an age!
>
>Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
>http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/
>Sometimes the delete key serves best.
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>  
>
Atcually there is a much simpler and cheaper STM design. I'm currently 
trying to buikd it. It's based on a
"unimoph" piezo element which costs $2.00. This replaces the three 
expensive piezo elements in the Muenster design.

So far, my cost is still below $500, including the cost of machine 
tools. I intend to publish the design, but only after I
get it to work. It's based on
   http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/
But I have made some simple modifications.

Unfortunately, while STMs and AFM are conceptually similar, they are 
very different in actual implementation.
Therefore a super-cheap STM will not necesarily lead to a super-cheap AFM.

If the unimorph concept works for the STM, it may be possible to extend 
it to permit multiple probes to operate
on the same field.  this is may prove more useful than an AFM



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 04:25:50 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:25:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Yet more about KBO 2004 DW
In-Reply-To: <4037E0E6.8020605@barrera.org>
Message-ID: <20040222042550.58999.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Joseph S. Barrera III" <joe at barrera.org> wrote:
> Here's a very nice article, including this tidbit: "We've traced 2004
> DW back to November 23, 1954, when it was photographed as part of the
> first 
> Palomar Sky Survey" and also a bit about getting a better estimate of
> its size in the next couple of weeks via the IRAM telescope in Spain.
> 

While my opinion likely doesn't mean anything to the astronomers, I
find it highly pretentious to be giving the names of mythic gods to
balls of ice (it's bad enough some jovian ice moons got such
treatment). Qaoar is a bit much. I would propose that in keeping with
Pluto, that KBO's should be named after dogs.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 04:38:52 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 20:38:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <c193lv$2p7p$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040222043852.32043.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>

The replacement will be cards that contain pre-set amounts of encrypted
digital cash backed by gold, silver, and other tangible deposits.

--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> (This is only mildly futuristic, but hey, I don't see people talking
> about it.)
> 
> Many of us love our credit cards, debit cards, checks, bank
> transfers,
> etc, that allow us to perform monetary transactions without having
> to move bundles of cash around.  However, these methods all leave
> a data trail behind and--at least in their current implementations--
> suffer from transaction fees that make them uneconomical for small
> payments.  For these reasons, cash is still popular and desirable.
> 
> Now, I recently caught something on TV which reminded me of a looming
> crisis that doesn't appear to receive much public attention yet:
> 
> Counterfeiting is going to kill traditional cash real soon now.
> 
> While much of the current counterfeit money that enters circulation
> may still not stand up to closer inspection by a layman, the best
> of the crop here in Europe is now in practice indistinguishable
> from genuine money.  Of course experts can still recognize the
> forgeries, but consumers, merchants, and banktellers cannot.  The
> problem isn't so much creating enhanced security features that are
> hard to duplicate, as it is creating features that can still be
> readily verified with the plain old human sensorium.  We're at the
> end of the road here.
> 
> You never hear much about who the counterfeiters are.  "From Eastern
> Europe".  This reminds me of a guy I knew, who was involved with a
> print shop, and who related the story that they once sat down and
> had a try at duplicating paper money (scaled in size, to be on the
> safe side) just to see whether they could.  Supposedly it didn't
> prove very difficult.  Any competent print shop should be able to
> produce plausible counterfeit money.  Okay, so that was a couple
> of years ago, but progress doesn't seem to favor the central banks
> there.  There are many trained printers in the world.
> 
> Cash will have to grow an electronic component or become wholly
> electronic.  However, there are also strong interests on the part
> of law enforcement and the spooks to get rid of anonymous cash
> altogether (think tax evasion, money laundering, and the wonderful
> possibilities of plain transaction profiling).  I don't know where
> the banks are on this and what the overall balance of interests
> ends up like.  Will cash go away completely?
> 
> So, what _is_ the future of cash?
> 
> -- 
> Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                         
> naddy at mips.inka.de
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb 22 05:12:59 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 21:12:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cool: Cancer Killing Nano
In-Reply-To: <001701c3f8d3$5c7698d0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402212101410.12630-100000@server.aeiveos.com>



On Sat, 21 Feb 2004, Harvey Newstrom wrote:

> Russell Evermore wrote,
> >
> > <http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=725>
>
> I can't tell from this article whether this actually exists or is just
> predicted for the future.  Any specific details?  This would be amazing if
> we could use this technology. [snip]

This isn't new, its a form of nanohype.  Targeted antibodies with
radioactive molecules or genotoxins attached have been around for
some time.  The problem is that since cancerous cells rarely mutate
in the same way it is difficult to get antibodies with the required
specificity.  It is a perfectly reasonable therapy when you get
antibodies that are specific to the cancer -- determining the
cancer subtype is much more feasible now using microarrays that
look at gene expression -- *but* since there are probably thousands
of different subtypes of cancers and since each individual displays
molecular fragments (of mutated genes) based on their own specific
MHC genes (which is what the antibodies generally target) -- getting antibody
based therapies to work well is likely to be very problematic.

Robert




From mathew at alcor.org  Sun Feb 22 06:17:26 2004
From: mathew at alcor.org (Mathew Sullivan)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:17:26 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stump bill - cryonics regulation
Message-ID: <4483.207.254.7.40.1077430646.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>

The bill (HB 2637) can be found here:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocumen...2Ehtm&DocType=B

The status of the bill can be found here:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/46leg...s/hb2637o%2Easp

The Health Committee hearing schedule can be found here:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/CommitteeInfo...Committee_ID=73

The hearing is scheduled for February 26.

Mathew Sullivan
mathew at alcor.org


From cryofan at mylinuxisp.com  Sun Feb 22 06:40:21 2004
From: cryofan at mylinuxisp.com (randy)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:40:21 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new proposed Arizona
	law
In-Reply-To: <400632C1.C173FADD@mindspring.com>
References: <400632C1.C173FADD@mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <idjg30lcfvm0fmpapd8e2nqhqc671r0hu5@4ax.com>


For the cryonicists here, and those thinking of signing up, we have
been discussing possible actions regarding the upcoming vote on a law
that would apparently basically outlaw cryonics in Arizona. You can
read that discussion here:
http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/54032

One suggestion has been for out of state cryonicists to call
particular AZ state legislators (Alcor has provided their email and
phone, but has only advised AZ cryonicists to contact those
legislators).  Does anyone here have any suggestions about how to
proceed? The bill is to come up for a committee vote on Thursday, I
believe.


-------------
Randy


From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 22 06:52:00 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 01:52:00 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cool: Cancer Killing Nano
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402212101410.12630-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000501c3f910$604f0450$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

> On Sat, 21 Feb 2004, Harvey Newstrom wrote:
> 
> > Russell Evermore wrote,
> > >
> > > <http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=725>
> >
> > I can't tell from this article whether this actually exists 
> or is just 
> > predicted for the future.  Any specific details?  This would be 
> > amazing if we could use this technology. [snip]
> 
> This isn't new, its a form of nanohype.

I was afraid of this.  The article seemed deliberately vague on details and
big on hype.  Sigh....

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From nanowave at shaw.ca  Sun Feb 22 07:08:27 2004
From: nanowave at shaw.ca (Russell Evermore)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:08:27 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Yet more about KBO 2004 DW
References: <20040222042550.58999.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3f912$ab459ee0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>

> While my opinion likely doesn't mean anything to the astronomers, I
> find it highly pretentious to be giving the names of mythic gods to
> balls of ice (it's bad enough some jovian ice moons got such
> treatment). Qaoar is a bit much. I would propose that in keeping
with
> Pluto, that KBO's should be named after dogs.

I agree, like maybe, "Fetch1" or "Useless2"
RE



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb 22 07:32:22 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:32:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alcor situation [was: Re: Stump - Alcor Member]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402212330370.12630-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


John Grigg has requested that I post the following message from him to the
list.

> From starman2050 at lycos.com Sat Feb 21 20:03:05 2004
> Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 15:15:18 -0800
> From: John Grigg <starman2050 at lycos.com>
> Subject: Urgent Alcor message for you & Extrolist

Alcor needs your help before THIS Thursday!

Arizona Representative Bob Stump
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/MembersPage.asp?Member_ID=85 is trying to
pass a bill into law which would put Alcor under the regulation of the
funeral industry and also limit it to no more than five years of having a
suspended patient in storage within the state of Arizona.

He has not cooperated with Alcor to create a fair bill, but instead has
been underhanded and not even informed Alcor of when hearings were to be.
And with one Arizona funeral industry director saying if necessary he
would regulate Alcor out of existance, these are disturbing times.

At http://www.alcor.org/legislativealert.html Alcor's new president, Joe
Waynick, discusses the urgency of the situation and implores people to
take the fight to the Arizona state legislature.  He gives excellent
counsel & background info on drafting a (polite, but firm) letter to make
a difference and gives contact information.

I ask everyone to do their part and contact these politicians before it is
too late.  This is an emergency situation and the hearing is this
Thursday!

John Grigg




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb 22 07:50:10 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 23:50:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Cool: Cancer Killing Nano
In-Reply-To: <000501c3f910$604f0450$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402212339470.12630-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Harvey Newstrom wrote (regarding a new cancer therapy):

> > This isn't new, its a form of nanohype.
>
> I was afraid of this.  The article seemed deliberately vague on details and
> big on hype.  Sigh....

Oh, it isn't that bad -- there are some antibody therapies that appear to
be showing some promise -- probably those where the tumor up-regulates
a specific hormone receptor.  The angiogenesis inhibitors are also doing
fairly well -- the problem is there may be a number of angiogenesis promoter
"hormones" that one has to deal with.

The success with Gleevec against certain types of leukemia suggests that
the problems can be solved but its going to take specific knowledge of
what is going wrong and a very focused approach to dealing with it.

Simply understanding that there may be a few thousand genes involved in
cell replication and Murphy's Law ("If something can go wrong it will")
would tend to lead one to the conclusion that cancer is going to be a very
tough problem to solve.  I'm sure we solved more problems in going
to the moon.  Its just that we really didn't have the tools (the genome
sequence) to effectively deal with cancer until circa 2000.

Robert




From es at popido.com  Sun Feb 22 10:20:33 2004
From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:20:33 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <20040222043852.32043.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040222043852.32043.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <40388271.70309@popido.com>

There has been some discussion on embedding euro notes with RFID tags to 
identify them:
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011219S0016
but I don't know if it will ever become a reality. According to the 
article they should be here next year, but that doesn't seem plausible.


Erik


Mike Lorrey wrote:

>The replacement will be cards that contain pre-set amounts of encrypted
>digital cash backed by gold, silver, and other tangible deposits.
>
>--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
>  
>
>>(This is only mildly futuristic, but hey, I don't see people talking
>>about it.)
>>
>>Many of us love our credit cards, debit cards, checks, bank
>>transfers,
>>etc, that allow us to perform monetary transactions without having
>>to move bundles of cash around.  However, these methods all leave
>>a data trail behind and--at least in their current implementations--
>>suffer from transaction fees that make them uneconomical for small
>>payments.  For these reasons, cash is still popular and desirable.
>>
>>Now, I recently caught something on TV which reminded me of a looming
>>crisis that doesn't appear to receive much public attention yet:
>>
>>Counterfeiting is going to kill traditional cash real soon now.
>>
>>While much of the current counterfeit money that enters circulation
>>may still not stand up to closer inspection by a layman, the best
>>of the crop here in Europe is now in practice indistinguishable
>>from genuine money.  Of course experts can still recognize the
>>forgeries, but consumers, merchants, and banktellers cannot.  The
>>problem isn't so much creating enhanced security features that are
>>hard to duplicate, as it is creating features that can still be
>>readily verified with the plain old human sensorium.  We're at the
>>end of the road here.
>>
>>You never hear much about who the counterfeiters are.  "From Eastern
>>Europe".  This reminds me of a guy I knew, who was involved with a
>>print shop, and who related the story that they once sat down and
>>had a try at duplicating paper money (scaled in size, to be on the
>>safe side) just to see whether they could.  Supposedly it didn't
>>prove very difficult.  Any competent print shop should be able to
>>produce plausible counterfeit money.  Okay, so that was a couple
>>of years ago, but progress doesn't seem to favor the central banks
>>there.  There are many trained printers in the world.
>>
>>Cash will have to grow an electronic component or become wholly
>>electronic.  However, there are also strong interests on the part
>>of law enforcement and the spooks to get rid of anonymous cash
>>altogether (think tax evasion, money laundering, and the wonderful
>>possibilities of plain transaction profiling).  I don't know where
>>the banks are on this and what the overall balance of interests
>>ends up like.  Will cash go away completely?
>>
>>So, what _is_ the future of cash?
>>
>>-- 
>>Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                         
>>naddy at mips.inka.de
>>_______________________________________________
>>extropy-chat mailing list
>>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>>    
>>
>
>
>=====
>Mike Lorrey
>"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                       - Gen. John Stark
>"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                       - Mike Lorrey
>Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
>Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
>http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
>  
>




From jpnitya at sapo.pt  Sun Feb 22 22:54:11 2004
From: jpnitya at sapo.pt (Joao Magalhaes)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:54:11 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alice's Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <4037D2A5.4080601@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222140544.01d60280@pop.sapo.pt>

Hi!

As BillK said, this paper is not aimed at extropians but rather is an 
introductionary view of the Singularity. As for the flaws mentioned by 
Jacques, I disagree. A dilemma is: "a state of uncertainty or perplexity 
especially as requiring a choice between equally unfavorable options". The 
Singularity is uncertain and perplexing. From a non-extropian perspective, 
these are frightening ideas and so even though one possibility is clearly 
favourable, it does not mean that will be the chosen one by the human 
species. As for the Unabomber, he defends a change in society to eliminate 
technology, which I see as another form of relinquishment. His methods and 
ultimate goal may be more radical than Bill Joy's but they share the same 
philosophy of abandoning technology.

All the best,

Joao


Joao Magalhaes (joao.magalhaes at fundp.ac.be)

Website on Aging: http://www.senescence.info
Reason's Triumph: http://www.jpreason.com  



From jpnitya at sapo.pt  Sun Feb 22 22:36:30 2004
From: jpnitya at sapo.pt (Joao Magalhaes)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:36:30 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: How bioinformatics can help reverse engineer
	human aging
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222143243.01d63810@pop.sapo.pt>

Dear friends,

I hope you will excuse me for another self-promoting post, but I've just 
published a paper on computer-based applications in aging research which 
may interest some of you. It is entitled "How bioinformatics can help 
reverse engineer human aging". In brief, I place modern computational 
approaches in the perspective of studying aging and how to apply these 
technologies in aging research. You may access the paper online at:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6X1H-4BMTCGM-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2004&_alid=149794047&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=7243&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1a99b84f1607d96c512a860fcc35c32b

You will need a subscription to access the paper, though if you e-mail me 
privatly I'll send you a reprint.

Comments are always welcomed.

All the best,

Joao


Joao Magalhaes (joao.magalhaes at fundp.ac.be)

Website on Aging: http://www.senescence.info
Reason's Triumph: http://www.jpreason.com  



From jpnitya at sapo.pt  Sun Feb 22 23:15:34 2004
From: jpnitya at sapo.pt (Joao Magalhaes)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:15:34 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: real progress
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402211231510.4477-100000@server.aeiveos.com
 >
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040221185513.02643130@pop.sapo.pt>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222143112.01d66ae0@pop.sapo.pt>

Hi!

I agree with the argument that the essence of life is very similar amongst 
eukaryotes. I mean, the way the system is designed is similar between yeast 
and human cells. Yet unicellular organisms don't need apoptosis and thus 
linking findings in yeast sir2 to findings in human cells with SIRT1 and 
apoptosis is dubious.

As for p66, the main interest in it is that knocking out p66 in mice 
increases their lifespan and may also delay aging. Since p66 is related to 
apoptosis, and mice have tons of apoptosis, my opinion is that p66 -/- mice 
live longer because of changes in tissue homeostatsis caused by having 
lower levels of apoptosis. I very much enjoyed the ideas in:

Warner, H. R., and Sierra, F. (2003). "Models of accelerated ageing can be 
informative about the molecular mechanisms of ageing and/or age-related 
pathology." Mech Ageing Dev 124(5):581-587.

Although Warner mentions his ideas in the context of models of accelerated 
aging, I tend to see the delayed aging witnessed in p66 mice as similar. 
You can also easily extrapolate these models into Werner's syndrome.

All the best,

Joao

---

Joao Magalhaes (joao.magalhaes at fundp.ac.be)

Website on Aging: http://www.senescence.info
Reason's Triumph: http://www.jpreason.com  



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 15:36:17 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:36:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stump bill - cryonics regulation
In-Reply-To: <4483.207.254.7.40.1077430646.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
Message-ID: <20040222153617.41660.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>

These links don't exist

--- Mathew Sullivan <mathew at alcor.org> wrote:
> The bill (HB 2637) can be found here:
> 
> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocumen...2Ehtm&DocType=B
> 
> The status of the bill can be found here:
> 
> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/46leg...s/hb2637o%2Easp
> 
> The Health Committee hearing schedule can be found here:
> 
> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/CommitteeInfo...Committee_ID=73
> 
> The hearing is scheduled for February 26.
> 
> Mathew Sullivan
> mathew at alcor.org
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 15:41:51 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 07:41:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new proposed
	Arizona law
In-Reply-To: <idjg30lcfvm0fmpapd8e2nqhqc671r0hu5@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <20040222154151.49611.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>

I would suggest that you folks should consider an exit strategy as an
"if" alternative. For example, I invite you to move to New Hampshire,
the Free State. I can pretty much guarantee you that you won't face
such regulatory hurdles here.
As part of the Free State Projects, migration, I can put you in touch
with a number of real estate people, can provide you with information
about any number of towns in NH, and, if needed, you can discuss
developing your own facilities with the Free Town Land Development
Group, which I am currently interim chairman of the board of.

--- randy <cryofan at mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
> 
> For the cryonicists here, and those thinking of signing up, we have
> been discussing possible actions regarding the upcoming vote on a law
> that would apparently basically outlaw cryonics in Arizona. You can
> read that discussion here:
> http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/54032
> 
> One suggestion has been for out of state cryonicists to call
> particular AZ state legislators (Alcor has provided their email and
> phone, but has only advised AZ cryonicists to contact those
> legislators).  Does anyone here have any suggestions about how to
> proceed? The bill is to come up for a committee vote on Thursday, I
> believe.
> 
> 
> -------------
> Randy
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb 22 16:15:22 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:15:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new proposed
	Arizona law
In-Reply-To: <20040222154151.49611.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220756570.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> I would suggest that you folks should consider an exit strategy as an
> "if" alternative. For example, I invite you to move to New Hampshire,
> the Free State. I can pretty much guarantee you that you won't face
> such regulatory hurdles here.

Mike has a very good point.  I was in the running for the President's
job at Alcor last November and several of the things that I posted
to the job review committee as things that needed to be done at
Alcor included a backup plan for working with other cryonics
organizations (to provide safe holding for suspendees), dealing
with natural disaster and transport issues, etc.  I would now
add legal restraints/constraints to that list.

It seems clear that any cryonics organization without viable
both national and international "Plan B's" should be open
to serious criticism.

As much as I respect the "free spirit" of states in New England,
I also trust that one can have backlashes.  So for cryonics to
ultimately be workable it has to look at legal entities where
the specification of the disposal of ones body or trusts which
hold ones body, etc. are not likely to be violated.

Robert




From gpmap at runbox.com  Sun Feb 22 16:07:37 2004
From: gpmap at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:07:37 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip communicate with
	the brain
Message-ID: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBCEDACBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>

>From CNEWS: Researchers at the University of Calgary have found that nerve
cells grown on a microchip can learn and memorize information which can be
communicated to the brain. This is a giant leap in answering several
fundamental questions of biology and neuro-electronics that will pave the
way for us to harness the power of nanotechnology. The findings could help
in the design of devices that combine electronic components and brain cells.
That includes controlling artificial limbs or restoring sight for the
visually impaired. Future research will focus on interfacing silicon chips
with the human brain to control artificial limbs and develop "thinking"
computers.
The article was published on Physical Review Letters, February 2004, as
"Neuron-Semiconductor Chip with Chemical Synapse between Identified
Neurons". Abstract: Noninvasive electrical stimulation and recording of
neuronal networks from semiconductor chips is a prerequisite for the
development of neuroelectronic devices. In a proof-of-principle experiment,
we implemented the fundamental element of such future hybrids by joining a
silicon chip with an excitatory chemical synapse between a pair of
identified neurons from the pond snail. We stimulated the presynaptic cell
(VD4) with a chip capacitor and recorded the activity of the postsynaptic
cell (LPeD1) with a transistor. We enhanced the strength of the soma-soma
synapse by repetitive capacitor stimulation, establishing a neuronal memory
on the silicon chip.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.581 / Virus Database: 368 - Release Date: 09/02/2004
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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb 22 16:39:10 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:39:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: real progress
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222143112.01d66ae0@pop.sapo.pt>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220816571.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Joao,

We seem to be in relative agreement with the similarity of genetic
programs in eukaryotes as well as the "all bets are off" perspective
when one goes from unicellular or small multicellular (potentially
short-lived) organisms to larger longer lived organisms.

So clearly the extrapolation of small, short-lived to large, long-lived
needs to be resolved.  I do not believe that will be easy.

I would grant that less apoptosis (p66 -/-) could easily extend lifespan.
The next question I would ask is whether such mice have a higher rate
of death from cancer?  If so this would imply that short lived animals
may be on the same balance as longer lived animals -- increased apoptosis
results in increased cell death which leads to aging, lack of apoptosis
leads to increased cancer rates that kill you via another path.

This is an important question because it involves whether or not
short-lived and long-lived species are on the same cancer vs. aging
tradeoff or on different paths.

> Although Warner mentions his ideas in the context of models of accelerated
> aging, I tend to see the delayed aging witnessed in p66 mice as similar.
> You can also easily extrapolate these models into Werner's syndrome.

Be very careful with linking these two (p66 and WS).  p66 may be
involved in the apoptosis pathway which if successful may prevent
the development of cancer but would require a complementary program
in stem cell development to provide replacement cells for cells lost
due to apoptosis.  WS is very different as I believe the WS gene is
an exonuclease meaning that it is going to corrupt the DNA code
during any repair process.

In short, the decision is:
a) Do I kill cells that have sustained damage -- hoping that new cells
   derived from stem cells will take over their functions?
or
b) Do I try to repair cells even though I may be producing a corrupted
   genome in those cells in the process?  (And of course the corrupted
   genome has greater chances of causing problems in the future.)

I do not believe that nature has developed a good genetic program
that resolves these questions.  Without the view that genomes are
genetic programs with patches on top of patches on top of patches
I believe it will be difficult to fully understand them.

Robert




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 16:50:40 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 08:50:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new proposed
	Arizona law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220756570.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040222165040.33558.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> As much as I respect the "free spirit" of states in New England,
> I also trust that one can have backlashes.  So for cryonics to
> ultimately be workable it has to look at legal entities where
> the specification of the disposal of ones body or trusts which
> hold ones body, etc. are not likely to be violated.

How about this: I am currently working with a few state legislators,
and another associate of mine (the LPNH chair) has held several
appointments from the Governor to various duties. We are crafting
liberty-oriented bills and getting them put before the legislature. 

One of these has already passed the House and Senate, in two different
forms, is currently undergoing revision in the House to conform to the
Senate version, and will then go to the Governor. This is a bill to
eliminate the need for concealed weapons permits in the state, and to
issue permits to people who wanted them, for reciprocal carry out of
state. This is our success. We have more bills in the pipeline.

If we could get a bill passed that gave legal protection to people
freely choosing cryonics as a viable alternative to conventional
funerary options, would Alcor move here if Arizona became no longer
feasible? If so, what measures would Alcor want to see in the bill?

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From patrick at bung.demon.co.uk  Sun Feb 22 17:03:46 2004
From: patrick at bung.demon.co.uk (Patrick M Young)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:03:46 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: How bioinformatics can help reverse
	engineerhuman aging
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222143243.01d63810@pop.sapo.pt>
Message-ID: <016401c3f965$d5e91020$0f01a8c0@home>

Hi Joao,

I would like to read your paper and other relevent papers you might
recommend.

Rgds,


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joao Magalhaes" <jpnitya at sapo.pt>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 10:36 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: How bioinformatics can help reverse
engineerhuman aging


> Dear friends,
>
> I hope you will excuse me for another self-promoting post, but I've just
> published a paper on computer-based applications in aging research which
> may interest some of you. It is entitled "How bioinformatics can help
> reverse engineer human aging". In brief, I place modern computational
> approaches in the perspective of studying aging and how to apply these
> technologies in aging research. You may access the paper online at:
>
>
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6X1H-4BMTCGM-5&_coverDate=04%2F30%2F2004&_alid=149794047&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_qd=1&_cdi=7243&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1a99b84f1607d96c512a860fcc35c32b
>
> You will need a subscription to access the paper, though if you e-mail me
> privatly I'll send you a reprint.
>
> Comments are always welcomed.
>
> All the best,
>
> Joao
>
>
> Joao Magalhaes (joao.magalhaes at fundp.ac.be)
>
> Website on Aging: http://www.senescence.info
> Reason's Triumph: http://www.jpreason.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From jacques at dtext.com  Sun Feb 22 17:44:21 2004
From: jacques at dtext.com (JDP)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 18:44:21 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alice's Dilemma
In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222140544.01d60280@pop.sapo.pt>
References: <4037D2A5.4080601@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
	<5.2.1.1.2.20040222140544.01d60280@pop.sapo.pt>
Message-ID: <16440.60021.277421.595110@localhost.localdomain>

Hi Joao!

I am not convinced, but these are minor, non-content points anyway, so...

Let it be said that one can refute Joy with Kaczynksi's essay, which
makes you wonder if Joy, who quotes Kaczynski, actually read it in
full.

For example (but this comes again and again in the whole essay):

   "121. A further reason why industrial society cannot be reformed in
   favor of freedom is that modern technology is a unified system in
   which all parts are dependent on one another. You can't get rid of
   the "bad" parts of technology and retain only the "good" parts.
   Take modern medicine, for example. Progress in medical science
   depends on progress in chemistry, physics, biology, computer
   science and other fields. Advanced medical treatments require
   expensive, high-tech equipment that can be made available only by a
   technologically progressive, economically rich society. Clearly you
   can't have much Progress in medicine without the whole
   technological system and everything that goes with it."

   (TK, _Industrial Society and Its Future_)

Jacques

Joao Magalhaes a ?crit (22.2.2004/14:54) :

> Hi!
> 
> As BillK said, this paper is not aimed at extropians but rather is an 
> introductionary view of the Singularity. As for the flaws mentioned by 
> Jacques, I disagree. A dilemma is: "a state of uncertainty or perplexity 
> especially as requiring a choice between equally unfavorable options". The 
> Singularity is uncertain and perplexing. From a non-extropian perspective, 
> these are frightening ideas and so even though one possibility is clearly 
> favourable, it does not mean that will be the chosen one by the human 
> species. As for the Unabomber, he defends a change in society to eliminate 
> technology, which I see as another form of relinquishment. His methods and 
> ultimate goal may be more radical than Bill Joy's but they share the same 
> philosophy of abandoning technology.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Joao



From sjvans at ameritech.net  Sun Feb 22 18:36:14 2004
From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:36:14 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new proposed
	Arizona law
In-Reply-To: <20040222165040.33558.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040222165040.33558.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1077474974.1059.6.camel@Renfield>

On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 10:50, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> If we could get a bill passed that gave legal protection to people
> freely choosing cryonics as a viable alternative to conventional
> funerary options, would Alcor move here if Arizona became no longer
> feasible? 

Possibly, but there are important logistical considerations.  A major
airport rarely shutdown for weather essential.  In addition, most of our
members are on the west coast.

Conceivably, some of this could be handle by separating storage from
operations, but then you would have two (three if the patient is remote)
states to deal with, and the overhead would kill us until we were much
larger.

> If so, what measures would Alcor want to see in the bill?

We are discussing it.

steve van sickle
speaking for himself



From neptune at superlink.net  Sun Feb 22 17:55:29 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 12:55:29 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new
	proposedArizona law
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220756570.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <012901c3f96d$100943e0$5fcd5cd1@neptune>

On Sunday, February 22, 2004 11:15 AM Robert J. Bradbury
bradbury at aeiveos.com wrote:
> It seems clear that any cryonics organization
> without viable both national and international
> "Plan B's" should be open to serious criticism.

Someone suggested Switzerland many years ago -- not an Alcor member, but
just someone with an opinion on the matter.

You're mentioning the legal traditions regarding one's remains is to the
point.  An area with a strong history of not meddling with how people
deal with this stuff is likely to be the best place.  Any cryonics
organization, too, has to think very long-term -- not just move about at
the drop of a hat.

Regarding NH, I'm also in agreement.  It sounds good, but let's see what
happens first.  (I'm watching in anticipation too.  I wouldn't mind
moving to NH.  I want to see what happens first and have good prospects
first.)  It could be that, as you say, a backlash will arise.  Such
reactions are to be expected...

Cheers!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From scerir at libero.it  Sun Feb 22 18:08:12 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:08:12 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220816571.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <004001c3f96e$d65ddbe0$5fb71b97@administxl09yj>

I should perhaps write un-tropical, or a-tropical,
or no-more-tropical. Because Pentagon is saying
the weather is changing very fast, and that is not
the only thing ...

Yours sincerely
Ex-trope

(I must go out, buying helmets, Geiger counters,
clean waters, blankets, copies of Koran, and shops
are closed here, it is Sunday, and also Carnival,
and could someone please bring Anders to safety?)


----------------------------
Key findings of the Pentagon

Sunday February 22, 2004

"The Observer"

? Future wars will be fought over the issue of survival rather than
religion, ideology or national honour.

? By 2007 violent storms smash coastal barriers rendering large parts of the
Netherlands inhabitable. Cities like The Hague are abandoned. In California
the delta island levees in the Sacramento river area are breached,
disrupting the aqueduct system transporting water from north to south.

? Between 2010 and 2020 Europe is hardest hit by climatic change with an
average annual temperature drop of 6F. Climate in Britain becomes colder and
drier as weather patterns begin to resemble Siberia.

? Deaths from war and famine run into the millions until the planet's
population is reduced by such an extent the Earth can cope.

? Riots and internal conflict tear apart India, South Africa and Indonesia.

? Access to water becomes a major battleground. The Nile, Danube and Amazon
are all mentioned as being high risk.

? A 'significant drop' in the planet's ability to sustain its present
population will become apparent over the next 20 years.

? Rich areas like the US and Europe would become 'virtual fortresses' to
prevent millions of migrants from entering after being forced from land
drowned by sea-level rise or no longer able to grow crops. Waves of
boatpeople pose significant problems.

? Nuclear arms proliferation is inevitable. Japan, South Korea, and Germany
develop nuclear-weapons capabilities, as do Iran, Egypt and North Korea.
Israel, China, India and Pakistan also are poised to use the bomb.

? By 2010 the US and Europe will experience a third more days with peak
temperatures above 90F. Climate becomes an 'economic nuisance' as storms,
droughts and hot spells create havoc for farmers.

? More than 400m people in subtropical regions at grave risk.

? Europe will face huge internal struggles as it copes with massive numbers
of migrants washing up on its shores. Immigrants from Scandinavia seek
warmer climes to the south. Southern Europe is beleaguered by refugees from
hard-hit countries in Africa.

? Mega-droughts affect the world's major breadbaskets, including America's
Midwest, where strong winds bring soil loss.

? China's huge population and food demand make it particularly vulnerable.
Bangladesh becomes nearly uninhabitable because of a rising sea level, which
contaminates the inland water supplies.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1153547,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1153530,00.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalwarming/graphic/0,7367,397048,00.html



From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Feb 22 18:06:42 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:06:42 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040221170717.01c2a0d8@mail.comcast.net>
References: <006b01c3f829$dac53250$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040221170717.01c2a0d8@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20040222180642.GH12419@leitl.org>

On Sat, Feb 21, 2004 at 05:37:04PM -0500, David Lubkin wrote:
> Harvey wrote:
> 
> >... We now can colonize thousands of worlds with interplanetary
> >spaceships without having to invent interstellar travel or FTL ships ...

There's nothing particularly difficult about building lightsail-driven
relativistic small vessels. It doesn't even take nanotechnology, though it
would of course require nanotechnology to packages enough functionality in a
few-kg payload.

> >... We also now know that Oort clouds and Kuiper Belts are normal 
> >structures around stars ...
> 
> >Their close proximity means that massive parallel colonization is much
> >closer (both in distance and time) than we could have predicted before.
> >These worlds will be the primary space frontier.  We will colonize 
> >thousands
> >of these before reaching many (if any) stars.  Furthermore, we will reach
> >these Pluto-type planets around other stars before diving down into their
> >gravity wells to reach their planets.  This means that even in interstellar
> >travel, these worlds will be reached first.
> 
> Moreover, they are convenient stepping stones.

I disagree. The Moon *is* a convenient stepping stone (for a conventional
culture, a culture far deeper into the Singularity doesn't need this
particular crutch). You only need this one step to reach any object within a
shallow gravitation well (these being the easiest pickings).
 
> We've debated and fantasized about star travel for most of a century, down 
> to the recent thread about the utility of interstellar exploration for a 
> foo-Brain.

You'll notice that the most advanced current proposals have nothing to do
with riveted-hull space opera bulkheads. Not even such quaint 1960s ideas as a
nuke drive.
 
> Absent a cheap, hand-waving magic physics, interstellar travel is presumed 

Where's the magic in a gray sail? There is none. It's a passive receptacle,
most of the engine is left at home, and is just radiating reaction mass via
microwave photons.

> to be expensive. Either a high energy cost propulsive system or a 
> long-duration flight (generation ship or suspended animation or immortals 
> or robotic).

This is 2004. Does anyone here really think you'll see flesh people going to
the stars? Or even to Kuiper belt, in person?
 
> But. The coolest thing to me about Kuiper and Oort is the possibility of 
> their ubiquity. If Proxima Centauri has an Oort cloud, it will overlap 
> ours. We don't need a trillion-dollar starship or an FTL drive. The 

Interstellar travel is very cheap with autopoietic machines. 

> natural, gradual processes of wanting some elbow room when civilization is 
> too cramping or wondering what's over the next hill that spread us across 
> this planet can spread us to the stars -- in planetoid-sized hops.

Sorry, sounds like a modern rehash of Jules Verne to me.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 18:14:34 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:14:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new proposed
	Arizona law
In-Reply-To: <1077474974.1059.6.camel@Renfield>
Message-ID: <20040222181434.23304.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" <sjvans at ameritech.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 10:50, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > If we could get a bill passed that gave legal protection to people
> > freely choosing cryonics as a viable alternative to conventional
> > funerary options, would Alcor move here if Arizona became no longer
> > feasible? 
> 
> Possibly, but there are important logistical considerations.  A major
> airport rarely shutdown for weather essential.  In addition, most of
> our members are on the west coast.

Manchester Airport is a major regional airport. It has many flights
each day with both Southwest and United, as well as several other
airlines, with everything short of 747 jumbojets. DHL also has its
regional hub here, and it is the new HQ of the Free State Project,
which will be subletting office space this month from
1-800-Serve-em.com at the old terminal building.

As Manchester Airport was once a military base, there may be some
military bunker-type facilities here that would work for Alcor. LPNH
member and US Senate Candidate Ken Blevins is a local real estate
agency owner and can provide help with locating appropriate facilities
convenient to the airport.

I also have contacts in the funerary industry here, and can explore
trying to get their support here, if you folks want to. If we put a
bill forward, it would probably help if we can get their support before
hand, building a positive relationship from the start, and avoiding the
whole type of mess you are seeing in Arizona now.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 22 18:22:55 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:22:55 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <40388271.70309@popido.com>
Message-ID: <002201c3f970$e4801b00$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Erik Starck wrote,
> There has been some discussion on embedding euro notes with 
> RFID tags to identify them:
> http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011219S0016
> but I don't know if it will ever become a reality. According to the 
> article they should be here next year, but that doesn't seem 
> plausible.

Why not?  RFID chips are already in use today.  They are extremely cheap
chips that can be embedded in papers, and were originally designed for
supermarket pricing on can labels.  It would be trivial to add these chips
to any paper product (or anything else, for that matter).  

Furthermore, these chips were designed in conjunction with cash register
makers who want to build systems to automatically recognize goods and lookup
prices automatically.  Cash registers are already designed to work with
money.  There are probably cash registers already on the market that could
recognize RFID chips in money as well as in products and automatically price
the products, count the money, and dispense the change.

I see no reason why RFID chips couldn't be put into money within a year.  We
are already putting them in other paper products and already have cash
registers that utilize these chips today.  Many store distribution systems
already require RFID chips in the packaging, such as at WalMart, as do many
branches of the U.S. military.  These RFID chips are already in product
packaging and are already recognized by many markets and cash registered.

I don't see why they couldn't be added to money within a year.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 22 18:27:05 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:27:05 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new
	proposedArizona law
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220756570.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <002501c3f971$7ccb8840$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote,
> I was in the running for the President's job at Alcor last November

You were?  Wow.  I know a *lot* of people who were almost president of
Alcor.  They must have looked at a lot of candidates.

> a backup plan for 
> working with other cryonics organizations (to provide safe 
> holding for suspendees), dealing with natural disaster and 
> transport issues, etc.  I would now add legal 
> restraints/constraints to that list.

When I do security reviews, including disaster recovery and business
continuity plans, I always include legal considerations into the mix.  A
sudden change in politics, such as is occurring now, can completely wipe out
a business for no good reason.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Feb 22 18:36:01 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:36:01 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <001001c3f8d1$59ecf2a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040221170717.01c2a0d8@mail.comcast.net>
	<001001c3f8d1$59ecf2a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <20040222183601.GI12419@leitl.org>

On Sat, Feb 21, 2004 at 06:20:47PM -0500, Harvey Newstrom wrote:

> Yes!  I see the structure of the universe's habitable planet(oid)s as a
> matrix of the bubble-shaped Oort Clouds covering the galaxy, with big empty

I see the structure of the visible universe as a great big empty honking
void, utterly devoid of life smart enough to get off their individual rocks.

With the possible exception of us.

> spaces down in the gravety wells around stars.  This is totally different
> from traditional futurist thinking about interstellar travel to other

You're putting tranditional futurist at -35 years at best. This is pretty
dusty, even for last century futurism.

> planets.  I also see the little hops spreading out in all directions, and
> not the big hops across empty space that most sci-fi has described.  The
> future is totally different than what we had predicted.  There are more
> worlds, closer worlds, smaller hops, and lower technology requirements than

There's something cute about a 300 km/s technology, vs a 0.95 c technology.
Picture 10^3 years of worth of volume with a 10^3 factor in velocity. 10^6
years. 10^9 years.

> we earlier imagined.  This has made me more confident of future interstellar
> expansion than ever before.  These Pluto-type worlds are the interstellar
> worlds of the future.  They far outnumber the classical planets by hundreds
> of thousands to one.

I see Kuiper belt as one big salad bar. Fusables, crunchy carbon.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mathew at alcor.org  Sun Feb 22 18:37:27 2004
From: mathew at alcor.org (Mathew Sullivan)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:37:27 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stump bill - cryonics regulation
In-Reply-To: <20040222153617.41660.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <4483.207.254.7.40.1077430646.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
	<20040222153617.41660.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3099.207.254.7.40.1077475047.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>

Lets try this again.

The bill can be found here:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/46leg/2r/bills/hb2637p%2Ehtm&DocType=B

The status of the bill can be found here:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/46leg/2r/bills/hb2637o%2Easp

The Health Committee hearing schedule can be found here:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/CommitteeInfo.asp?Committee_ID=73

> These links don't exist
>
> --- Mathew Sullivan <mathew at alcor.org> wrote:
>> The bill (HB 2637) can be found here:
>>
>> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocumen...2Ehtm&DocType=B
>>
>> The status of the bill can be found here:
>>
>> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/46leg...s/hb2637o%2Easp
>>
>> The Health Committee hearing schedule can be found here:
>>
>> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/CommitteeInfo...Committee_ID=73
>>
>> The hearing is scheduled for February 26.
>>
>> Mathew Sullivan
>> mathew at alcor.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
>
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
>
>



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 18:42:53 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:42:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: new planet?
In-Reply-To: <20040222183601.GI12419@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <20040222184253.53855.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Eugen Leitl <eugen at leitl.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 21, 2004 at 06:20:47PM -0500, Harvey Newstrom wrote:
> 
> > we earlier imagined.  This has made me more confident of future
> > interstellar expansion than ever before.  These Pluto-type
> > worlds are the interstellar worlds of the future. They far
> > outnumber the classical planets by hundreds
> > of thousands to one.
> 
> I see Kuiper belt as one big salad bar. Fusables, crunchy carbon.
> 

Reminds me of Niven's "Outsiders" aliens, who lived entirely outside
solar systems, in interstellar space. We are going to have to engineer
ourselves to operate at much lower temperatures and with slower
metabolisms, come up with cryonic range biochemistries, etc.


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 22 18:49:05 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:49:05 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new
	proposedArizona law
In-Reply-To: <20040222154151.49611.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <003201c3f974$900efdd0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Mike Lorrey wrote,
> I would suggest that you folks should consider an exit 
> strategy as an "if" alternative. For example, I invite you to 
> move to New Hampshire, the Free State. I can pretty much 
> guarantee you that you won't face such regulatory hurdles 
> here. As part of the Free State Projects, migration, I can 
> put you in touch with a number of real estate people, can 
> provide you with information about any number of towns in NH, 
> and, if needed, you can discuss developing your own 
> facilities with the Free Town Land Development Group, which I 
> am currently interim chairman of the board of.

Excellent work, Mike.  The only thing holding me back is my career.  My best
career options are taking me other places, unfortunately.

> If we could get a bill passed that gave legal protection to 
> people freely choosing cryonics as a viable alternative to 
> conventional funerary options, would Alcor move here if 
> Arizona became no longer feasible? If so, what measures would 
> Alcor want to see in the bill?

This needs to be directed to Alcor.  However, if it does look like a long
legal battle is approaching, I would suggest comparing the costs of fighting
that battle with the cost of moving to a legally safer location.  Maybe you
can work with Alcor directly on this?  I am sure that they don't want to
move and will do everything in their power to fight and stay.  But as a
backup plan, they may want to work with you on making NH safe for cryonics.

Even if they aren't interested in NH, you might want their advice on
cryonics-friendly legislation, and might want to work to make NH
cryonics-friendly anyway.  Another cryonics organization might move there.
Just the legislation in one state could help convince legislatures in
another state.  This might be a strategy for NH laws to help support freedom
in other states.

> One of these has already passed the House and Senate, in two 
> different forms, is currently undergoing revision in the 
> House to conform to the Senate version, and will then go to 
> the Governor. This is a bill to eliminate the need for 
> concealed weapons permits in the state, and to issue permits 
> to people who wanted them, for reciprocal carry out of state. 
> This is our success. We have more bills in the pipeline.

I am not interested in carrying a gun, so these rights are only of
theoretical interest to me.  (Sorry!)  Are there plans to address equal
rights for gays, stem cell research, cloning, body modification, and of
course, cryonics?  These might be more attractive to transhumanists and
could also be a source of support for the FSP by attracting new sources of
membership.  You might be interested in working with Extropy Institute or
the World Transhumanist Association to see what specific legislation they
might be interested in.  Both of them are focusing on defending scientific
and transhumanist rights.  

You seem to be a de facto liaison between FSP and futurist groups.  Maybe
you can meet with various future-tech groups for legislation ideas, or
better yet, with specific future-tech companies to see if you can attract
them to your area with friendly laws.  Delaware is the corporation capital
of the U.S. because of its corporate law.  Maybe the FSP could make NH the
science research capital of the U.S.  You might even consider working with
the ACLU.  Although they don't seem to be as interested in gun rights, they
might be interested in gay rights or research rights, or freedom to publish
findings rights, etc.  You might also become the capital of lobbyist or
political rights organizations.  They could use your state to test and
develop new legislation before moving on to other states.  They might lend
resources and help develop legally supportable legislation.  The FSP could
be an umbrella groups and legal laboratory for a lot of other political
action committees for all sorts of purposes.  It might be a source of free
support and expertise.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 






From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 18:55:34 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:55:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stump bill - cryonics regulation
In-Reply-To: <3099.207.254.7.40.1077475047.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
Message-ID: <20040222185534.56460.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Mathew Sullivan <mathew at alcor.org> wrote:
> Lets try this again.
> 
> The bill can be found here:
> 
>
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/46leg/2r/bills/hb2637p%2Ehtm&DocType=B

This bill is not what someone presented here. Someone claimed that it
would ban storage of human bodies for more than 5 years. This is not
what this bill does. What it does is say you need to be licensed to do
so.

The first tack that should be taken is to get your own legislator to
amend the bill so that it does not say you have to be an embalmer to do
this, since embalming essentially destroys the usefulness of the
tissue, it is like asking your hairstylist to do a hair transplant.

The way this is worded, it sounds to me like the funeral industry sees
big money in the cryonics market and wants in on it (and to kick Alcor
out). THe prospect of managing humongous trust funds of thousands of
cryonics clients obviously makes them salivate. It would give them an
alternative profit center from the 'perpetual care' fees they charge to
maintain their graveyards.

So, once you get your own legislator, what you need to do is to counter
the smear tactics of the funeral industry. They, I am sure, are
bringing up Ted Williams, as well as a few other questionable episodes
in cryonics history to rationalize why regulation is needed.

In response, you need to bring up similar, but much more eggregious,
episodes of abuses in the funerary industry, for example those cases in
the South a couple years ago where bodies were just tossed in the woods
behind a funeral home, and another case where bodies were routinely
buried in the wrong place, old bodies were dug up to make room for new
ones and tossed in the garbage, etc. The Funeral industry has a much
nastier history of abuses than cryonics ever will. Take advantage of
that. The term "knowing where the bodies are buried" is a funeral
industry term....

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 22 19:46:17 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:46:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] The problems with Alcor and the new
	proposedArizona law
In-Reply-To: <003201c3f974$900efdd0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <20040222194617.80380.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Harvey Newstrom <mail at harveynewstrom.com> wrote:
> Mike Lorrey wrote,
 
> > One of these has already passed the House and Senate, in two 
> > different forms, is currently undergoing revision in the 
> > House to conform to the Senate version, and will then go to 
> > the Governor. This is a bill to eliminate the need for 
> > concealed weapons permits in the state, and to issue permits 
> > to people who wanted them, for reciprocal carry out of state. 
> > This is our success. We have more bills in the pipeline.
> 
> I am not interested in carrying a gun, so these rights are only of
> theoretical interest to me.  (Sorry!) 

Thats okay, it is just an example of the fact that we are becoming an
effective political force already here, simply by emboldening people
already here and in office to take more liberty oriented stances. This
is evidence that the people of this state already have a significant
sentiment for getting the government off of people's backs.

Other bills in the pipeline:
a) a sound money bill
b) a state guard bill


Several dozen FSP members have moved already. Half of our members have
stated they will move here in the next 3 years. There are thousands
around the country who are organizing local recruitment groups to get
the remaining 14,000+ members we need to activate the official
migration period.

>  Are there plans to address equal rights for gays, stem cell
> research, cloning, body modification, and of course, cryonics?

Governor Benson has led the nation in signing the first bill to allow
state residents to purchase less expensive prescription drugs in
Canada. As the founder of Cabletron, he is a high tech proponent, and
understands many transhumanist issues. He is an FSP member (a "Friend"
class member, since he didn't agree to move to another state, but
signed our statement of principles).

NH already recognises equal benefits rights for domestic partners
employees of state and local government agencies, irrespective of
orientation/gender. Rather than a civil unions law or gay marriage law,
we would prefer eliminating the state licensure of marriage entirely.
Government issued marriage licenses are an artifact of Jim Crow
legislation, and slave breeding regulations prior to that. Before the
Civil War, no free man or woman had to obtain a marriage license to get
married.

If there are no marriage licenses, then everybody is equal and can
marry whoever they want to, and can get people to witness.

There was a recent court ruling here in NH intended to slap the bigots
with an 'you can't have your cake and eat it' ruling. A fellow divorced
his wife for a lesbian affair she had. She argued that state adultery
statutes (adultery is still grounds for divorce here) only applied to
sex that could result in a pregnancy. She won. The court ruled that the
19th century adultery statute recognised that it was a protection of
the husbands property rights to the womans womb as a tool for
delivering a legitimate heir to his estate. While on its face, this
sounds REALLY offensive, but it is intended as a constructionist ruling
that will trigger a reform in our legislation. It tells the bigots that
"if gays can't marry, then their sex isn't adultery either". Expect to
see a new marriage law to pass the legislature later this year.

Additionally, the FSP is raising funds for one of our "shadow ad
campaigns" to target the regions of the country trying to outlaw gay
marriage. We will be publishing ads in the Bay area and the Boston area
expressing our support of gay marriage, and offering those who are
restricted from so marrying to move to NH to help us build a truly free
society. If list members are interested in supporting this, please let
me know. You can also contact Doug Hillman, our interim VP, at
hei at starband.net, if you wish to contribute to this campaign.

Technology:
There is a nanotechnology/nanomaterials department at the University of
New Hampshire which has received significant funding to date for
research.
There is currently no state restriction on cloning or body mods,
outside of licensing for plastic surgeons and tatoo artists.

If stem cell and/or cloning researchers wish to establish a center in
this state, we can put some proposals forward to help deal with federal
interference in intra-state affairs.

A recent 9th circuit appeals court ruling in the gun control arena will
likely help the cause of individual technology use (see how I've always
talked about how gun control is a litmust test of other
transhumanist/liberty issues). The recent ruling is that a fellow who
built a machine gun in his own home workshop did not engage in any way
in interstate commerce, and as such, is not bound by the interstate
commerce powers of congress, as delegated to the BATF. 

This ruling can apply to ANY sort of individual technology use, and
given trends in the courts, I would not be surprised if further court
restrictions on congressional commerce powers in the future allow for
commerce engaged entirely within a state to be outside the powers of
congress to regulate.

> 
> You seem to be a de facto liaison between FSP and futurist groups. 

I am not the only one. ExI people should be aware that one-time
Extropian Amanda Phillips is the new FSP President. She was just voted
into office this past week, with my endorsement. Amanda is a long time
Objectivist, very photogenic (as opposed to myself...;) ), and is an
effective public speaker.

> Maybe
> you can meet with various future-tech groups for legislation ideas,
> or better yet, with specific future-tech companies to see if you can
> attract them to your area with friendly laws. 

This is something I plan on being involved in. We currently have three
NH state legislators who are FSP members, and they report that they
have an informal caucus of about 15 legislators who are solid
libertarians/constitutionalists. The state Republican party is divided
between the Republican Liberty Alliance, the RINOS (democrats who run
as republicans to get elected), and the Fundies/Conservatives. The RLA
has about 135 seats in the House and is avidly courting FSP support,
and will back FSP candidates in House district seats they don't already
hold.

On the other side, there is a smaller contingent of liberty oriented
Democrats who are communicating informally with us. The official NHDC
is very paranoid about the FSP and sees us as a major threat to their
incrementalist socialist strategies, so those maverick dems who agree
with us on many things are very cautious about supporting us openly.
State Dem Chairwoman Kathy Sullivan practically foams at the mouth
whenever a reporter asks her about us...

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From support at imminst.org  Sun Feb 22 20:22:50 2004
From: support at imminst.org (support at imminst.org)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:22:50 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst Update
Message-ID: <40390f9a396d9@imminst.org>

Immortality Institute ~ For Infinite Lifespans
Mission: end the blight of involuntary death


Action Item: Cryonics Regulatory Attack
***************
Arizona legislation is being considered that could 
limit Alcor's effectiveness as a cryonics facility. 
Action needed by Thursday Feb 26. 
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=61&t=3152


Chat: Women for the Right to Choose Longer Life 
***************
Infinite Females converge in a chat to discuss Extropy 
Institute's VP Summit topic: President Bush's Bioethics 
Council report, Beyond Therapy. 
Chat Time: Sunday Feb 22 @ 6 PM EST
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=141&t=3146


Chat: Robotics, AI, and Immortality
***************
French engineer, Jean Roch (nefastor) joins ImmInst to 
discuss his work on artificial neurons and full-body prosthetics 
as a pathway to physical immortality. 
Chat Time: Sunday Feb 22 @ 8 PM EST
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=63&t=3070


Article: If Uploads Come First: The Crack of a Future Dawn 
***************
Assistant professor of economics at George Mason 
University, Robin Hanson advises on how to prepare 
for uploading of human consciousness to artificial substrates. 
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=67&t=3135&hl=&s=

 
Article: Philosophy of Life & Optimism 
***************
Russian author, Igor Vladimirovich Vishev, who introduced the 
concept of "immortology" (science of immortality) as well as 
"homo immortalis" (man immortal) into scientific use, celebrates 
the 100-year anniversary of the death of intrepid Russian 
immortalist philosopher, Nikolai Fedorovich Fedorov. 
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=67&t=3130
 

Support ImmInst
***************
http://imminst.org/become_imminst_fullmember






To be removed from all of our mailing lists, click here:
http://www.imminst.org/archive/mailinglists/mailinglists.php?p=mlist&rem=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Feb 22 21:17:12 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:17:12 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <40388271.70309@popido.com>
References: <20040222043852.32043.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
	<40388271.70309@popido.com>
Message-ID: <20040222211712.GV12419@leitl.org>

On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 11:20:33AM +0100, Erik Starck wrote:
> There has been some discussion on embedding euro notes with RFID tags to 
> identify them:
> http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20011219S0016
> but I don't know if it will ever become a reality. According to the 
> article they should be here next year, but that doesn't seem plausible.

There are multiple types of RFIDs, implemented in different technologies.
They're all passively pumped (either electromagnetically, or
electrostatically). Their intelligence, and hence price, varies a lot.

Carbon black antenna and a simple serial ID is very cheap. Polymer ink is
second cheapest, but probably need sealed polymer banknotes and can't implement
cryptographic authentication, currently. For now you need silicon microdies for that, and this
technology will thus be limited to multi-digit banknotes (500 EUR and
slightly below).

Microwaving the money is not a safe means to destroy the RFIDs. In near
future, polymer ink will become powerful enough to implement cryptographic
authentication. If this technology catches on, the RFID capability will
become the primary means of money authentication, so nuking RFIDs will be
penalized -- you'd have to prove your nuked cash stash isn't counterfeit.

Future of money? Micrograin digicash will be there, at some point. Given the
large incentive, probably black market digicash -- DRM hardware will make it
possible. We'll probably get RFID-tagged cash (and almost any artifact out
there worth tracking). Dead tree money (or plastic) will start to vanish at
some point.  

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 22 21:26:48 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:26:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stump bill - cryonics regulation
In-Reply-To: <20040222185534.56460.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040222212648.94725.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> This bill is not what someone presented here.
> Someone claimed that it
> would ban storage of human bodies for more than 5
> years. This is not
> what this bill does. What it does is say you need to
> be licensed to do
> so.

And if said licenses are never granted to cryonics
agencies as a matter of unwritten but explicitly
spoken policy, such that it can not be challenged in
any court of law...

> The way this is worded, it sounds to me like the
> funeral industry sees
> big money in the cryonics market and wants in on it
> (and to kick Alcor
> out).

The way I've read the debate on it, the emphasis is
entirely on "kick Alcor out".  You're right, there
would be business potential in managing those funds -
but economics is not behind every human decision.


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 22 21:37:08 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:37:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
In-Reply-To: <004001c3f96e$d65ddbe0$5fb71b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <20040222213708.96130.qmail@web80404.mail.yahoo.com>

--- scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:
> Key findings of the Pentagon

> ? By 2007 violent storms smash coastal barriers
> rendering large parts of the
> Netherlands inhabitable. Cities like The Hague are
> abandoned. In California
> the delta island levees in the Sacramento river area
> are breached,
> disrupting the aqueduct system transporting water
> from north to south.

On this alone, I can call this prediction set bunk.
Southern California has the money and the political
pull to, if its water supply is seriously threatened,
get that problem fixed.

> ? Deaths from war and famine run into the millions
> until the planet's
> population is reduced by such an extent the Earth
> can cope.

And, of course, it's well known that the current war
and famine problems stem more from political causes
than carrying capacity.  I.e., if 90% of central
Africa's population died tomorrow, the survivors would
still have the problems of war and famine.


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Sun Feb 22 21:38:58 2004
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:38:58 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
Message-ID: <016c01c3f98c$477e19d0$6600a8c0@brainiac>

The Pentagon's Weather Nightmare
The climate could change radically, and fast. That would be the mother of
all national security issues:

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,582584,00.html

I know there are contrarians on this list regarding this topic.  If you have
thoughts from "counterpoint" side, please post.  I assume there are some
overlooked issues in this Fortune magazine article, and I would be curious
to learn more about them.

Thanks,
Olga






From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 22 21:43:06 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:43:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip communicate with
	the brain
In-Reply-To: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBCEDACBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>
Message-ID: <20040222214306.98448.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> >From CNEWS: Researchers at the University of
> Calgary have found that nerve
> cells grown on a microchip can learn and memorize
> information which can be
> communicated to the brain. This is a giant leap in
> answering several
> fundamental questions of biology and
> neuro-electronics that will pave the
> way for us to harness the power of nanotechnology.

...huh?  This seems like a mere confirmation of
something no one had any reason to doubt.  A minor
step, at most.  (It's progress, yes, but let's save
the "giant leap" celebrations for truly giant leaps,
lest everyone get burned out on this field before the
truly giant leaps arrive.)


From spike66 at comcast.net  Sun Feb 22 22:14:03 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:14:03 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <016c01c3f98c$477e19d0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <000001c3f991$2e331660$6501a8c0@SHELLY>

> Olga Bourlin
> Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
> 
> 
> The Pentagon's Weather Nightmare
> The climate could change radically, and fast. That would be 
> the mother of all national security issues:
> 
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,582584,00.html

>I know there are contrarians on this list regarding this topic.  If you
have
>thoughts from "counterpoint" side, please post...Olga


Olga, I read over these predictions and considered them
too silly to respond.  The weather on this big old planet
simply does not change quickly, nothing does.  I find the
evidence lacking.  Even if it did somehow change quickly,
we can transport food quickly to anywhere on the planet.
We have *plenty* of arable land around the globe that is
not being used.  Humanity *can* deal with a shutdown of
the North Atlantic conveyor.

And even so, I fail to see why that would be the Pentagon's 
nightmare.  The navy's ships can handle a bit of bad weather, 
and the planes can be moved out of the path of hurricanes.  

The only realistic scenario offered is an invasion from
Mexico and South America, but this has been going on since
forever.  It isn't such a destabilizing thing, in fact it
has its tangeable benefits.

spike





From cryofan at mylinuxisp.com  Sun Feb 22 22:34:58 2004
From: cryofan at mylinuxisp.com (randy)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:34:58 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Alcor problems
In-Reply-To: <200402222013.i1MKDrc02516@tick.javien.com>
References: <200402222013.i1MKDrc02516@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <flai30t4b4tedpbdp9t5mphc57gt4qms0p@4ax.com>



>
>--- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" <sjvans at ameritech.net> wrote:
>> On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 10:50, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>>Possibly, but there are important logistical considerations.  A major
>>airport rarely shutdown for weather essential.  In addition, most of our
>>members are on the west coast.

>>Conceivably, some of this could be handle by separating storage from
>>operations, but then you would have two (three if the patient is remote)
>>states to deal with, and the overhead would kill us until we were much
>>larger.

No getting around the fact that moving the patient temporarily to a
cryopreservation-only location, then moving the fact to a second,
storage only location is an added cost. However, I wonder if the cost
differential might be mitigated by selling the Scottsdale location and
using two cheaper locations.


>Manchester Airport is a major regional airport. It has many flights
>each day with both Southwest and United, as well as several other
>airlines, with everything short of 747 jumbojets. DHL also has its
>regional hub here, and it is the new HQ of the Free State Project,
>which will be subletting office space this month from
>1-800-Serve-em.com at the old terminal building.
>
>As Manchester Airport was once a military base, there may be some
>military bunker-type facilities here that would work for Alcor. LPNH
>member and US Senate Candidate Ken Blevins is a local real estate
>agency owner and can provide help with locating appropriate facilities
>convenient to the airport.
>
>I also have contacts in the funerary industry here, and can explore
>trying to get their support here, if you folks want to. If we put a
>bill forward, it would probably help if we can get their support before
>hand, building a positive relationship from the start, and avoiding the
>whole type of mess you are seeing in Arizona now.

Better maybe to go to an even smaller population state (such as
Wyoming (only about 400K people live there)) and "getting into" the
ostensibly much smaller funeral industry there, where it would be much
easier to influence.  

Wyoming is also much cheaper than NH and Phoenix. A Wyoming location
could be used then as a storage-only location working within the
funeral industry.

The cryopreservation location would optimally be in a warm weather
location, but one that is cheap. El Paso, Texas comes to mind. Little
chance of a weather disaster there (it is somewhat like Phoenix).  And
Texas is a state well know for letting business have its way. And when
it comes to real estate, El Paso is much cheaper than Phoenix.







-------------
Randy


From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Sun Feb 22 22:41:53 2004
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:41:53 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Birthday Wish List
References: <200402220215.i1M2FKhH019175@mxsf22.cluster1.charter.net>
	<40382071.3030106@cox.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c3f995$11b7d710$b7be1218@Nano>

I have actually had a (recently neglected) home built STM project in my garage that has been there for a few years now. I have designs, although I am missing a few key specifications on some of the parts. Specifically the oscilloscope, the diodes and the piezoelectric element (which only requires one). Although there are methods of prevention in my crude schematic, even if this design was to be accomplished there would still be some vibrational stabilization issues. There is no rush for me to figure these problems out right now. I would like one day to return my focus on this project however right now my attention is on 3D animation. At any rate, you still have a whole day to ship my AFM! : ) Gina`
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Dan Clemmensen 
  To: ExI chat list 
  Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 7:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Birthday Wish List


  duggerj1 at charter.net wrote:

  >Saturday, 20 December 2004
  >
  >Hello all,
  >
  >     Gina--would you mind a "some assembly required" STM? University of Muenster's Interface Physics Groups has mail-order kits for EURO 888, if you live outside Germany. 
  >
  >http://sxm4.uni-muenster.de/stm-en/
  >
  >     If no one takes the hint, don't feel bad. I didn't get one either.
  >
  >STM kits by mail! What an age!
  >
  >Jay Dugger     :     Til Eulenspiegel
  >http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/
  >Sometimes the delete key serves best.
  >
  >_______________________________________________
  >extropy-chat mailing list
  >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
  >
  >  
  >
  Atcually there is a much simpler and cheaper STM design. I'm currently 
  trying to buikd it. It's based on a
  "unimoph" piezo element which costs $2.00. This replaces the three 
  expensive piezo elements in the Muenster design.

  So far, my cost is still below $500, including the cost of machine 
  tools. I intend to publish the design, but only after I
  get it to work. It's based on
     http://www.geocities.com/spm_stm/
  But I have made some simple modifications.

  Unfortunately, while STMs and AFM are conceptually similar, they are 
  very different in actual implementation.
  Therefore a super-cheap STM will not necesarily lead to a super-cheap AFM.

  If the unimorph concept works for the STM, it may be possible to extend 
  it to permit multiple probes to operate
  on the same field.  this is may prove more useful than an AFM

  _______________________________________________
  extropy-chat mailing list
  extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
  http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
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From mathew at alcor.org  Sun Feb 22 22:44:19 2004
From: mathew at alcor.org (Mathew Sullivan)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 15:44:19 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] All Alcor members can help
Message-ID: <3255.207.254.7.53.1077489859.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>

I just received information that a special edition of Alcor News will be
sent out today to give instructions on what ?all? Alcor members can do to
help.  Here is the link to Alcor News: 
http://www.alcor.org/NewsEvents/index.html

Mathew Sullivan
Alcor Foundation



From jpnitya at sapo.pt  Mon Feb 23 07:30:33 2004
From: jpnitya at sapo.pt (Joao Magalhaes)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 23:30:33 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: real progress
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220816571.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com
 >
References: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222143112.01d66ae0@pop.sapo.pt>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040222225327.02597ec0@pop.sapo.pt>

Hi!

Although the p66 mice live longer, there is little information regarding 
specific age-related pathologies. I don't remember reading anything 
regarding cancer rates in p66 -/- mice, so I would assume cancer rates do 
not change but I could be wrong.

As for WS and p66, I think you missed my point. At a molecular level they 
may have different roles. Yet I was looking at aging from a cell population 
perspective. At a tissue level, p66 decreases apoptosis, meaning tissues 
can have cells dividing slower or have less cells dividing to maintain 
tissue homeostasis. In WS, cells divide slower and less vigorously, meaning 
there must be more cells dividing to maintain homeostasis. The bottom line 
is: in p66 you have a higher production of cells while in WS you have a 
lower production of cells, meaning p66 allows cells to divide less 
frequently while WS obliges cells to divide more frequently. From this 
perspective it makes sense that p66 delays aging while WS decreases 
longevity and accelerates aging.

Just like you can't understand a painting by looking too closely, maybe you 
have to zoom out from the molecular perspective to understand aging.

Apoptosis is also affected by WS, though I'm not sure whether it's 
increased or decreased.

A couple of references on p66:

Migliaccio, E., Giorgio, M., Mele, S., Pelicci, G., Reboldi, P., Pandolfi, 
P. P., Lanfrancone, L., and Pelicci, P. G. (1999). "The p66shc adaptor 
protein controls oxidative stress response and life span in mammals." 
Nature 402(6759):309-313.

Nemoto, S., and Finkel, T. (2002). "Redox regulation of forkhead proteins 
through a p66shc-dependent signaling pathway." Science 295(5564):2450-2452.

And a couple of references on the link between WS and apoptosis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9681877&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10364153&dopt=Abstract

All the best,

Joao

PS: A good question then would be why mice mutant for WRN do not age faster 
since their cells divide slower in culture.


Joao Magalhaes (joao.magalhaes at fundp.ac.be)

Website on Aging: http://www.senescence.info
Reason's Triumph: http://www.jpreason.com  



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb 23 00:50:26 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 16:50:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: being really old
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402221638240.12946-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


The New York Times has an interesting commentary on aspects
of people living longer and maintaining health through old age:

February 22, 2004
Life in the Age of Old, Old Age
By SUSAN DOMINUS
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/22/magazine/22LONGEVITY.html?pagewanted=print

It raises the interesting question as to whether we can turn back
the clock -- and if so -- when we will have that ability?  Is there
a time when everything we have assumed about aging changes?  Before
one answers that question, it is necessary to consider the fact that
we now have the complete human genome.  Having the code and understanding
it are two different things.  *But* we are getting better at both generating
the codes and interpreting them.

Robert





From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 01:45:42 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:45:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <016c01c3f98c$477e19d0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
Message-ID: <20040223014542.89264.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Olga Bourlin <fauxever at sprynet.com> wrote:
> The Pentagon's Weather Nightmare
> The climate could change radically, and fast. That would be the
> mother of all national security issues:
> 
> http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,582584,00.html
> 
> I know there are contrarians on this list regarding this topic.  If
> you have thoughts from "counterpoint" side, please post.  I assume
> here are some overlooked issues in this Fortune magazine article,
> and I would be curious to learn more about them.

I've already critqued this Pentagon study as fraught with leaps of
illogic, namely:
a) the claimed warming is happening in the arctic, not at the equator,
thus the temp differential, which causes storms, is lessening, leading
to LESS severe storms, not more severe storms. This is born out by the
fact that the first half of the 20th century saw twice as many
severe/major hurricanes as the last half did.
b) the claim is that the north atlantic conveyor will shut down
completely, leading to an Ice Age in northern europe. The conveyor is
shut down because the arctic is TOO warm. When it cools again, the
conveyor will start back up. This is a cycle known as the North
Atlantic Occillation, which is well known to REAL geologists and
climatologists who are involved in holocene studies. There will be no
Ice Age.
c) it is european reliance on diesel based transportation that is the
primary cause of arctic warming, as the particulates from the diesel is
what is causing arctic warming. NOTE: Europe does diesel because that
is what the Greens tell it to... note the irony...
d) the ice caps are secure (you have seen my prior posts on this
topic). I will note that the pentagon study contradicts itself,
claiming that there will be an Ice Age in the northern hemisphere AT
THE SAME TIME that the ice caps collapse.... riddle me that...

Whoever wrote this study is an ignorant hack.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From fauxever at sprynet.com  Mon Feb 23 01:53:34 2004
From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:53:34 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
References: <20040223014542.89264.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c3f9af$d9974b70$6600a8c0@brainiac>

From: "Mike Lorrey" <mlorrey at yahoo.com>
> >
> > http://www.fortune.com/fortune/print/0,15935,582584,00.html
> >
> > I know there are contrarians on this list regarding this topic.  If
> > you have thoughts from "counterpoint" side, please post.  I assume
> > here are some overlooked issues in this Fortune magazine article,
> > and I would be curious to learn more about them.
>
> I've already critqued this Pentagon study as fraught with leaps of
> illogic, namely:
> a) the claimed warming is happening in the arctic, not at the equator,
> thus the temp differential, which causes storms, is lessening, leading
> to LESS severe storms, not more severe storms. This is born out by the
> fact that the first half of the 20th century saw twice as many
> severe/major hurricanes as the last half did.
> b) the claim is that the north atlantic conveyor will shut down
> completely, leading to an Ice Age in northern europe. The conveyor is
> shut down because the arctic is TOO warm. When it cools again, the
> conveyor will start back up. This is a cycle known as the North
> Atlantic Occillation, which is well known to REAL geologists and
> climatologists who are involved in holocene studies. There will be no
> Ice Age.
> c) it is european reliance on diesel based transportation that is the
> primary cause of arctic warming, as the particulates from the diesel is
> what is causing arctic warming. NOTE: Europe does diesel because that
> is what the Greens tell it to... note the irony...
> d) the ice caps are secure (you have seen my prior posts on this
> topic). I will note that the pentagon study contradicts itself,
> claiming that there will be an Ice Age in the northern hemisphere AT
> THE SAME TIME that the ice caps collapse.... riddle me that...
>
> Whoever wrote this study is an ignorant hack.

Thank you, Mike (and for you post, as well, thank you, Spike).  This is what
I was looking for.

I am compiling a folder on this topic as I need to learn a lot more (see?
I've become more skeptical about what I read...).

Olga




From moulton at moulton.com  Mon Feb 23 03:30:17 2004
From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:30:17 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stump bill - cryonics regulation
In-Reply-To: <3099.207.254.7.40.1077475047.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
References: <4483.207.254.7.40.1077430646.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
	<20040222153617.41660.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
	<3099.207.254.7.40.1077475047.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
Message-ID: <1077507017.2398.47.camel@localhost>


Thanks for the links.  I took a quick look at the bill and while IANAL
it looks like it throws a very wide net since I would not be surprised
if medical schools store and use body parts for more than 5 years.  It
may be worth investigating to see if the medical schools would support
an effort to get the bill amended to exclude "anatomical donations". 

Also does this apply to medical research labs?  I know there are a lot
of medical facilities in the Phoenix area but I do not know if they do
much basic research that could subject them to this bill.  If the does
apply to them then I doubt if they would be happy with the bill since it
would drive up their costs.

I hope these questions are helpful.

Fred



On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 13:37, Mathew Sullivan wrote:
> Lets try this again.
> 
> The bill can be found here:
> 
> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/46leg/2r/bills/hb2637p%2Ehtm&DocType=B
> 
> The status of the bill can be found here:
> 
> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/46leg/2r/bills/hb2637o%2Easp
> 
> The Health Committee hearing schedule can be found here:
> 
> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/CommitteeInfo.asp?Committee_ID=73
> 
> > These links don't exist
> >
> > --- Mathew Sullivan <mathew at alcor.org> wrote:
> >> The bill (HB 2637) can be found here:
> >>
> >> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocumen...2Ehtm&DocType=B
> >>
> >> The status of the bill can be found here:
> >>
> >> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/46leg...s/hb2637o%2Easp
> >>
> >> The Health Committee hearing schedule can be found here:
> >>
> >> http://www.azleg.state.az.us/CommitteeInfo...Committee_ID=73
> >>
> >> The hearing is scheduled for February 26.
> >>
> >> Mathew Sullivan
> >> mathew at alcor.org
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> extropy-chat mailing list
> >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Mike Lorrey
> > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
> >                                        - Gen. John Stark
> > "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
> >                                        - Mike Lorrey
> > Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> > Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> >
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From alito at organicrobot.com  Mon Feb 23 06:48:55 2004
From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:48:55 +1000
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <c193lv$2p7p$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <c193lv$2p7p$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <1077518935.1121.140.camel@alito.homeip.net>

On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 12:20, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

> While much of the current counterfeit money that enters circulation
> may still not stand up to closer inspection by a layman, the best
> of the crop here in Europe is now in practice indistinguishable
> from genuine money.  Of course experts can still recognize the
> forgeries, but consumers, merchants, and banktellers cannot.  The
> problem isn't so much creating enhanced security features that are
> hard to duplicate, as it is creating features that can still be
> readily verified with the plain old human sensorium.  We're at the
> end of the road here.

If bank tellers can't tell them apart, it's probably just because
counterfeits are rare enough not to be taken seriously.  While at some
point in the future, cash will become cheaply/perfectly forged, current
methods are likely to be expensive and non-perfect, and therefore with
circulating volumes << real currency so noone will care (collective
effect of counterfeit money just being a devaluation of the currency by
fraction fake/real).  If these operations up their output, banks notice
and tellers are just trained to tell those specific fakes apart, or
devices are made to distinguish them  (this is something you shouldn't
forget, btw.  When human vision isn't enough, cheap distinguishing
devices proliferate), at which point the population in general starts
taking notice, and the value of the fake drops, so the operations have
some motivation to keep outputs low (it is also, of course, much easier
to launder small amounts).  If the fake is too good to distinguish
easily by bank tellers with , the notes are slightly modified to make
them harder to make.   This cycle has been going on for a while, and
_current_ faking technology doesn't change the cycle.  

Also, jumping to plastic money (like Australia's been using for a decade
or so) makes the entry point much higher, and the ROI lower.
alejandro




From sjvans at ameritech.net  Mon Feb 23 07:50:03 2004
From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 01:50:03 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Stump bill - cryonics regulation
In-Reply-To: <1077507017.2398.47.camel@localhost>
References: <4483.207.254.7.40.1077430646.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
	<20040222153617.41660.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
	<3099.207.254.7.40.1077475047.squirrel@webmail.pair.com>
	<1077507017.2398.47.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1077522602.12714.26.camel@Renfield>

On Sun, 2004-02-22 at 21:30, Fred C. Moulton wrote:

> Also does this apply to medical research labs?  

As written, it seems to include everyone and everything, including that
old skeleton in the back of the classroom. 



From gpmap at runbox.com  Mon Feb 23 07:36:05 2004
From: gpmap at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:36:05 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Greens launch Europe-wide party
Message-ID: <IJEMLOJHDCNDHIICMJDBOEDACBAA.gpmap@runbox.com>

>From ABC News Online: Thirty-two Green parties from throughout Europe have
now officially joined forces to found the European Green Party. The first
ever Europe-wide political force will run a common campaign at elections for
the EU Parliament in June. The creation of the party at a congress in Rome
is the result of long mediation and efforts to find common ground, while
recognising the national identities of the participating parties.
>From Reuters AlertNet: I have no shame in saying that today we're making
history -- we're the first party to have a European structure," Daniel
Cohn-Bendit, co-president of the Greens in the European Parliament, told the
launch conference on Saturday.
Though I support many Green ideas, I am definitely no Green: they tend to be
against globalization and widespread adoption of advanced technologies, in
particulat biotechnologies. But I support the creation of transnational
political parties and hope European Greens will contribute to promoting a
transnational vision of Europe today, and the world tomorrow.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.581 / Virus Database: 368 - Release Date: 09/02/2004
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From es at popido.com  Mon Feb 23 08:08:29 2004
From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:08:29 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <002201c3f970$e4801b00$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
References: <002201c3f970$e4801b00$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <4039B4FD.6070602@popido.com>

Harvey Newstrom wrote:

>Erik Starck wrote,
>  
>
>>According to the 
>>article they should be here next year, but that doesn't seem 
>>plausible.
>>    
>>
>
>Why not?  RFID chips are already in use today.  They are extremely cheap
>chips that can be embedded in papers, and were originally designed for
>supermarket pricing on can labels.  It would be trivial to add these chips
>to any paper product (or anything else, for that matter).  
>  
>

I'm sure it's technically possible, but there are some privacy concerns:
http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,59565,00.html

And it's not just the chips that must work, the tricky thing is the 
infrastructure to support them.


Erik S.



From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Mon Feb 23 08:57:42 2004
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:57:42 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <000001c3f991$2e331660$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <000001c3f991$2e331660$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <4039C086.3040506@mail.tele.dk>

Spike wrote:

>>Olga Bourlin

>>I know there are contrarians on this list regarding this topic.  If you
>>have thoughts from "counterpoint" side, please post...Olga
> 
> Olga, I read over these predictions and considered them
> too silly to respond.  The weather on this big old planet
> simply does not change quickly, nothing does.  I find the
> evidence lacking.


Then you have not studied the evidence closely enough Spike.

Drillings in the arctic ice in Greenland has shown quite certainly that 
there has been very aprubt climate changes. Corresponding with ice ages.

This is not new data, but something I have been aware of for at least 10 
years.


A quick web search turned up these results:


See: 12,000 BP (before present) - Rapid Climate Change
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/warnings/stories/nojs.html

The Greenland icecap as a climate archive
http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Rapids/4233/icecore.htm

The North Greenland Ice Core Project or North GRIP has reached the end 
of the line at last.
http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2003/7/22/63859/1721


One of the reasons that I find the global warming scare a bit silly, is 
exactly this evidence.

Why worry about minor man made temperature changes, when nature has done 
it much more rapidly in the past, and we know almost with certainty that 
it will happen again.


Better focus on finding some way of terraforming an ice planet.


regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark


From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb 23 11:37:14 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:37:14 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <000001c3f991$2e331660$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
References: <016c01c3f98c$477e19d0$6600a8c0@brainiac>
	<000001c3f991$2e331660$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <20040223113714.GB18204@leitl.org>

On Sun, Feb 22, 2004 at 02:14:03PM -0800, Spike wrote:

> Olga, I read over these predictions and considered them
> too silly to respond.  The weather on this big old planet
> simply does not change quickly, nothing does.  I find the

Weather changes in minutes. Climate takes longer, but the machine is very
nonlinear. If you look at the fossil record (isotopic abundancies signatures)
you'll the changes can be very rapid indeed. 

> evidence lacking.  Even if it did somehow change quickly,
> we can transport food quickly to anywhere on the planet.

We could. We don't, because it's too expensive -- the distribution
infrastructure is not there.

> We have *plenty* of arable land around the globe that is
> not being used.  Humanity *can* deal with a shutdown of
> the North Atlantic conveyor.

No doubt.
 
> And even so, I fail to see why that would be the Pentagon's 
> nightmare.  The navy's ships can handle a bit of bad weather, 
> and the planes can be moved out of the path of hurricanes.  

Almost all wars have economic reasons driving them. If usually stable regions
erupt in warfare, Pentagon should have cold feet indeed.
 
> The only realistic scenario offered is an invasion from
> Mexico and South America, but this has been going on since

How does loss of all fossil fuel import sound like? Certainly worth a war or
two, last time I looked.

> forever.  It isn't such a destabilizing thing, in fact it
> has its tangeable benefits.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb 23 12:00:57 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:00:57 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <4039B4FD.6070602@popido.com>
References: <002201c3f970$e4801b00$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
	<4039B4FD.6070602@popido.com>
Message-ID: <20040223120057.GG18204@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 09:08:29AM +0100, Erik Starck wrote:

> I'm sure it's technically possible, but there are some privacy concerns:
> http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,59565,00.html

It seems nowadays no one gives a damn about privacy concerns. We're sliding
down the slippery slope very nicely, with no backlash due to horrible abuse
yet apparent.
 
> And it's not just the chips that must work, the tricky thing is the 
> infrastructure to support them.

Counting banknotes via RFID (assuming, the error rate is low enough) can be
done by passing a wad of notes some 10 cm nearby the reader, at some 10-100
Hz reading rate. This might take longer with cryptographic authentication,
but then, consider the savings on time and loss in counterfeit currencies.

Verifying digital signatures is computationally cheap in principle.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 13:03:22 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 05:03:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <4039C086.3040506@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <20040223130322.40629.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Max M <maxm at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> Spike wrote:
> 
> >>Olga Bourlin
> 
> >>I know there are contrarians on this list regarding this topic.  If
> you
> >>have thoughts from "counterpoint" side, please post...Olga
> > 
> > Olga, I read over these predictions and considered them
> > too silly to respond.  The weather on this big old planet
> > simply does not change quickly, nothing does.  I find the
> > evidence lacking.
> 
> 
> Then you have not studied the evidence closely enough Spike.
> 
> Drillings in the arctic ice in Greenland has shown quite certainly
> that there has been very aprubt climate changes. Corresponding with
> ice ages.
> 
> This is not new data, but something I have been aware of for at least
> 10 years.

This is not in dispute. However:
a) there has not been any collapse of Greenland or Antarctic Ice caps
in millions of years, in which time the Earth has seen far more severe
fluctuations than the 1 degree change we've seen over the past century
or the 2-6 degree change being predicted for this century (2 degrees
being more likely). Without ice cap collapse, there will be no rise in
sea levels. While there are a few current examples of "sea level rise",
these are, in areas of the real oceans, a matter of tectonic settling
and subsidence, and in the Caspian Basin in particular, increased
rainfall in central asia.
b) It has yet to be proven that CO2 is a causative agent of anything.
The IPCC draft report acknowledges this, even though the final version
reaches the opposite conclusion (i.e. after the politicians got their
hands on it). Evidence actually tends to show that CO2 is a lagging
indicator, leading to the logical conclusion that the cause lies
elsewhere. For example, late 19th century data of global temperatures
and coal production and consumption shows that temperatures began
rising BEFORE coal production and consumption rose.
c) CO2 proponents' climate models have consistently been highly
inaccurate at predicting *current day* climate based on historical
data, overestimating warming by a factor of 2-10. When it gets down to
brass tacks, MOST warming is a result of Malenkovich Cycles in Earth
orbital dynamics, the rest, a warming of the arctic, is a result of
northern diesel burning imposing soot on the arctic environment.


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Mon Feb 23 13:39:29 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:39:29 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <20040223130322.40629.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002b01c3fa12$92c0f3a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Mike Lorrey wrote,
> a) there has not been any collapse of Greenland or Antarctic Ice caps
> in millions of years,

Just because it hasn't happened in millions of years doesn't mean it won't
happen again soon.  Do you suppose that earth is immune to asteroid impact
because we haven't had one for a while?

> in which time the Earth has seen far more severe
> fluctuations than the 1 degree change we've seen over the past century
> or the 2-6 degree change being predicted for this century (2 degrees
> being more likely).

Fluctuations don't melt ice.  Total time above 32 degrees Fahrenheit does.
The above-freezing line is clearly encroaching on very old ice.  Very old
ice is melting and collapsing.  Historical data is not very useful at
dismissing current observations.

> Without ice cap collapse, there will be no rise in sea levels.

There already are measurable rises in sea levels.  There have already been
edge collapses in Antarctica.  Ice shelves and peninsulae have collapsed
into the oceans.  Some of these have been big enough to see from space and
to require adjustments to modern maps.

> b) It has yet to be proven that CO2 is a causative agent of anything.

Difficulty in finding the root cause does nothing to dispute the problem.

> For example, late 19th century data of global temperatures
> and coal production and consumption shows that temperatures began
> rising BEFORE coal production and consumption rose.

This actually supports the reality that the globe is warming.

> c) CO2 proponents' climate models have consistently been highly
> inaccurate at predicting *current day* climate based on historical
> data, overestimating warming by a factor of 2-10.

Yes, weather prediction has been historically difficult.  This does not
dismiss current observations or the most conservative predictions.  This is
merely an excuse to ignore science that is inconvenient.

> MOST warming is a result of Malenkovich Cycles in Earth
> orbital dynamics, the rest, a warming of the arctic, is a result of
> northern diesel burning imposing soot on the arctic environment.

Which means you can blame the greens for pushing diesel.  But again, this
accepts global warming.  It merely reassigns the blame for it on the
environmentalists.  Ironic and fun to do, but not really helpful in the
larger scheme of things.  Even if environmentalists are to blame, this would
be a human cause of real global warming which is having a real impact.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 





From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Mon Feb 23 13:40:50 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:40:50 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] TECH: The future of cash?
In-Reply-To: <4039B4FD.6070602@popido.com>
Message-ID: <002c01c3fa12$a9b14bf0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Erik Starck wrote,
> I'm sure it's technically possible, but there are some
> privacy concerns: 
> <http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,59565,00.html>
> 
> And it's not just the chips that must work, the
> tricky thing is the infrastructure to support them.

I am well aware of the privacy concerns.  I never said the government should
do it, I was answering the question of whether they could do it.  

But note that in the article you link above, the European Central Bank
spokesman wouldn't answer questions about privacy concerns, what features
were in the new money or who made the new money, citing strict
confidentiality agreements.  In other words, the banks are already
protecting corporate confidentiality over individual privacy concerns.  I
wouldn't count on the government to put the public's concerns over their
own.  The very fact that they pursued this project in secret and enacted
confidentiality agreements to prevent people from commenting demonstrates
the intent.

The infrastructure does not have to be in place before the RFID chips are
implemented.  Nor does the infrastructure have to be extensive.  Just having
it at a few central banks would provide substantial documentation for most
money flows.  Just having a small percentage of trackable bills would be
enough to track  major cash transactions.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 







From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 16:15:39 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:15:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <002b01c3fa12$92c0f3a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <20040223161539.87927.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Harvey Newstrom <mail at harveynewstrom.com> wrote:
> Mike Lorrey wrote,
> > a) there has not been any collapse of Greenland or Antarctic Ice
> caps
> > in millions of years,
> 
> Just because it hasn't happened in millions of years doesn't mean it
> won't happen again soon.  Do you suppose that earth is immune to
> asteroid impact because we haven't had one for a while?

Not at all. We are, however, dealing with cause and effect. The
Antarctic Ice Caps have been stable for the last 22 million years, in
which time the Earth has experienced a number of sustained periods with
MUCH warmer climate than present, as much as 10 degrees warmer. The
mere 2 degrees that the most accurate climate models predict for the
entire next century is noise compared to these real climate changes.

> 
> > in which time the Earth has seen far more severe
> > fluctuations than the 1 degree change we've seen over the past
> century
> > or the 2-6 degree change being predicted for this century (2
> degrees
> > being more likely).
> 
> Fluctuations don't melt ice.  Total time above 32 degrees Fahrenheit
> does.
> The above-freezing line is clearly encroaching on very old ice.  Very
> old ice is melting and collapsing.  Historical data is not very
> useful at dismissing current observations.

When I say 'fluctuations' it is in a geological sense, i.e. centuries.
When Northern Europe was warm enough for hippopotami to swim in the
Thames (and did), around 5000 BC, the Antarctic Ice Cap was sitting
pretty.

No, the above freezing line is NOT encroaching on very old ice. The
oldest ice is buried in the Dry Valleys surrounding the East Antarctice
Ice Cap, and they have been present for 22 million years. Since those
valleys are also the primary paths for Ice Cap ice to collapse through,
and there is no evidence that that has ever occured in these valleys,
it follows that the Ice Cap has been sitting there for 22 million
years, through periods when the earth was as much as 10 degrees warmer
than at present.

The Ice Line in Antarctica exists several hundred meters below the
subsea bedrock beneath the Ice Cap. Antarctica has been proven to be
thermally isolated from the rest of the earth, by circumpolar wind and
ocean currents, and has been to an ever increasing degree for the last
22 million years.

> 
> > Without ice cap collapse, there will be no rise in sea levels.
> 
> There already are measurable rises in sea levels.  There have already
> been edge collapses in Antarctica.  Ice shelves and peninsulae have
> collapsed into the oceans.  Some of these have been big enough to
> see from space and to require adjustments to modern maps.

You are unfamiliar with glacial morphology, like most of the public,
and are just buying into the propaganda. An Ice Shelf is ice which is
already sitting in the water. When Ice Shelf ice melts, it displaces no
more or less water, so its melting does not change the sea levels
whatsoever. Absolutely NO Ice Cap ice has collapsed. The ocean levels
are NOT rising.

ALL of the ice calving you see in the media is Ice Shelf ice, and real
climatologists say that that calving is ice which built up over the
Little Ice Age. The acceleration of Greenland glacial movement is also
due to ice from the center of Greenland laid down during the Little Ice
Age finally reaching the coast.

REAL sea levels are NOT rising. SOME areas of coastline and some
islands are subsiding due to tectonic action, or normal and natural
current-based erosion, NOT due to glacial or ice melting. In addition,
the chicken littles are counting the rising levels of the land-locked
Caspian Sea basin (which does not drain into the oceans) as 'sea level
rise' as if the oceans are rising. This is false. 

The Caspian Sea is rising because of two things: increased rainfall in
central asia, and the abandoning of Soviet projects to divert Caspian
basin rivers to irrigate siberian agricultural projects. These Soviet
projects had caused a historical DROP in Caspian sea levels in the mid
20th century, which at the time the Greens were claiming was a sign of
global warming (funny how they use ANY evidence either way to support
their claims). Now that river waters are no longer diverted, and the
Caspian Sea is rising, that this is also a sign of 'global warming'.

> 
> > b) It has yet to be proven that CO2 is a causative agent of
> anything.
> 
> Difficulty in finding the root cause does nothing to dispute the
> problem.

Implementing political policies to address an alleged root cause that
is not a root cause IS a big problem, and will lead to much more
environmental destruction than it claims to fix.

> 
> > For example, late 19th century data of global temperatures
> > and coal production and consumption shows that temperatures began
> > rising BEFORE coal production and consumption rose.
> 
> This actually supports the reality that the globe is warming.

I don't dispute that there is SOME warming. I dispute what is causing
it, and what its claimed effects will be, and I dispute that it is
global in scope. The Pentagon report that started this thread is
self-contradictory and factually incorrect in many ways.

> 
> > c) CO2 proponents' climate models have consistently been highly
> > inaccurate at predicting *current day* climate based on historical
> > data, overestimating warming by a factor of 2-10.
> 
> Yes, weather prediction has been historically difficult.  This does
> not dismiss current observations or the most conservative
> predictions. This is merely an excuse to ignore science that is
> inconvenient.

NO, it isn't. It is an argument that science is being abused, that
conclusions are being reached for political purposes without evidence
to support those conclusions.

I find it EXTREMELY odd and suspicous that YOU, Harvey, of all people,
who has a storied history of being significantly critical of claims put
out by the Pentagon, seem so willing to accept their claims in this one
case.

> 
> > MOST warming is a result of Malenkovich Cycles in Earth
> > orbital dynamics, the rest, a warming of the arctic, is a result of
> > northern diesel burning imposing soot on the arctic environment.
> 
> Which means you can blame the greens for pushing diesel.  But again,
> this
> accepts global warming.  It merely reassigns the blame for it on the
> environmentalists.  Ironic and fun to do, but not really helpful in
> the larger scheme of things.  Even if environmentalists are to blame,
> this would be a human cause of real global warming which is having a
> real impact.

The diesel impact is NOT global. You should be smart enough to see
this: arctic climate is warming, that is IT. The tropical and
equatorial regions are not warming. The antarctic is not warming. Ergo,
it is NOT 'global warming', it is a very regional climate change
specific to the Arctic region, partly caused by more radiation hitting
the north pole, and partly because of the misguided socialist choices
that some regions have made.

Now, if I have the following set of numbers:

2
1
.5
.25
0
0
0
0
0
-.25
What is their average? It is a positive average, right? The top numbers
are the northern latitude warming figures. The rest is the rest of the
world. The average shows positive total change, but it isn't "global".
It is quite obviously regional in scope. This is a normal means of
lying with statistics. This is how the IPCC can claim a 1 degree change
in global temperatures: it is an average, and is not representative of
the WHOLE globe.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb 23 16:36:13 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:36:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <002b01c3fa12$92c0f3a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402230817170.30069-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Harvey Newstrom wrote:

> Which means you can blame the greens for pushing diesel.  But again, this
> accepts global warming.  It merely reassigns the blame for it on the
> environmentalists.  Ironic and fun to do, but not really helpful in the
> larger scheme of things.  Even if environmentalists are to blame, this would
> be a human cause of real global warming which is having a real impact.

I *would* like to see a real (in-depth) analysis of whether
global warming could be good for humanity.  For example there
is a *lot* of land in Alaska, Canada and northern Russia which is
problematic from an agricultural standpoint.  There can't be
that many people on islands that can't take a 5, 10, 15m, etc.
rise in sea level who could not be relocated to land which has
become habitable due to global warming.  Hell, the deicification
of Greenland and Antarctica would open up a lot of land.

It seems to me that an extropic discussion of this topic should not
focus on the details (though one needs them for good discussions)
but should instead focus on whether or not a significant change
in the architecture of the Earth would be extropic or unextropic.

For example -- did the study cited list any benefits that might
develop as a result of global warming?  If not then it would seem
to be biased on the negative side.

I read an example of this earlier today where the predictions were
that global warming was going to kill off the Great Barrier Reef
by 2050.  None of the authors bothered to consider the fact that
sequencing the genomes of the coral and algae involved in creating
the reef structure is feasible *now* and engineering strains with greater
heat tolerance is feasible within the next decade.  Anyone predicting
anything past 2020 or so is in the middle of the swamp.

Robert






From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Mon Feb 23 16:54:20 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:54:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <20040223161539.87927.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402230842460.30069-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> The diesel impact is NOT global.

You have to be careful about this Mike -- some atmospheric soot may
end up in the arctic, will impact snow reflectance and therefore
alter arctic heating/radiation patterns.  However soot that is
brought down by rain into the oceans is much more mobile.  You
have to keep in mind that the oceans are starved for carbon --
any being brought down from the atmosphere is likely to be consumed
by the microorganisms which in turn may alter food webs all over
the globe.

> The tropical and equatorial regions are not warming.

Again I would say this isn't quite clear.  I would say that
the massive amount of forest removal taking place in the Amazon
and Indonesia may not have clear impacts now.  But you are
changing the reflectance, CO2 and water cycles of a significant
fraction of the equatorial regions -- one can expect that the
effects on climate will not be insignificant.

(Note -- As I have stated in the past -- due to nanotechnology
development I view the whole debate on global warming due to
CO2 production as silly -- the problem we are going to have is
a CO2 shortage because people will grab CO2 out of the atmosphere
because it is a relatively cheap resource from which to mine carbon.)

Robert




From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Mon Feb 23 18:21:30 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:21:30 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402230817170.30069-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c3fa39$dc6803f0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote,
> I *would* like to see a real (in-depth) analysis of whether 
> global warming could be good for humanity.  For example there 
> is a *lot* of land in Alaska, Canada and northern Russia 
> which is problematic from an agricultural standpoint.  There 
> can't be that many people on islands that can't take a 5, 10, 
> 15m, etc. rise in sea level who could not be relocated to 
> land which has become habitable due to global warming.  Hell, 
> the deicification of Greenland and Antarctica would open up a 
> lot of land.

You think the solution is to relocate tropical island people to Alaska and
Antarctica?  These are not large enough to replace all the warmer lands.

Seriously, it is not just islands.  It is Manhattan, Miami, US coastlines,
etc.  Much of our infrastructure is on the coasts.  We can't even keep our
infrastructure maintained now.  What would happen if it started
deteriorating at a much faster rate?

> It seems to me that an extropic discussion of this topic 
> should not focus on the details (though one needs them for 
> good discussions) but should instead focus on whether or not 
> a significant change in the architecture of the Earth would 
> be extropic or unextropic.

We can't make such decisions without analyzing the details.  High-level
handwaving and optimism don't really answer fundamental questions.

> For example -- did the study cited list any benefits that 
> might develop as a result of global warming?  If not then it 
> would seem to be biased on the negative side.

This is really a non-sequitur.  A lack of positive notes does not dispute
the negative ones.  Do you dispute the Columbia disaster findings because
they didn't present a positive side?  Do you reject possible asteroid impact
studies because they don't give a positive side?  If you really believe the
positives might outweigh the negatives, then do some research to demonstrate
some examples.  We have plenty of negative examples now.  Shouldn't we have
an equal number of positive examples by now?  Has agriculture in Alaska
greatly increased?  Are catches of fish going up in northern latitudes?  Are
people migrating from the equator toward the poles?  Some examples would
greatly bolster your claims.  Otherwise, they are unsubstantiated wishes.

> I read an example of this earlier today where the predictions 
> were that global warming was going to kill off the Great 
> Barrier Reef by 2050.  None of the authors bothered to 
> consider the fact that sequencing the genomes of the coral 
> and algae involved in creating the reef structure is feasible 
> *now* and engineering strains with greater heat tolerance is 
> feasible within the next decade.

So its OK to let the Great Barrier Reef die because we can build a new one?
I think we need to get our backup plans working before we let the original
copy get destroyed.  Even if we can rebuild it, it is almost always easier
to protect existing assets rather than building new ones.  I am not sure we
understand all the workings of the Great Barrier Reef or other large
ecosystems, like the Florida Everglades, enough to build artificial
replacements that operate outside their normal parameters.  It is not even
clear that these ecosystems can functions at higher temperatures, if we
modify them or not.

Basically, you seem to have faith that we can solve these problems, but no
real details or examples.  I am not willing to give up major portions of the
Earth on unsubstantiated faith right now.  Would you willingly die and get
frozen today on the hopes that future medicine could bring you back?  Do you
forego diet and exercise in the hopes that futuretech can rebuild you before
you die?  I don't.  I want to preserve myself and my world as long as
possible until the solution actually arrives.  I believe in the future, but
I wouldn't bet my life on it.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Feb 23 18:51:28 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 12:51:28 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] flash crowd super computer
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040223124601.01b81ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

Well, gee, eh?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/23/technology/23SUPE.html?th=&pagewanted=print&position=

< There are already many Internet-connected virtual supercomputers, like 
the SETI at home project, which uses the spare computing cycles on the 
personal computers of volunteers to hunt for signs of alien civilizations. 
Several universities have shown that it is possible to hook hundreds of 
off-the-shelf personal computers together to create supercomputers. But 
until now no one has tried to build an instant supercomputer in one place.

"It struck me as being something of a 60's idea," said Dennis Allison, a 
founder of Dr. Dobbs, a Silicon Valley magazine for computer programmers. 
"This could easily be an idea from one of William Gibson's science-fiction 
novels, where everyone gathers in Grand Central station to save the world 
by plugging their machines into the Net." >

Actually, it could be an idea from a Dam Clemmensen post to this forum, 
cited in THE SPIKE seven years ago--except that Dan's approach to a home 
brew singularity-grade AI *didn't* require all the machines to be 
physically `in one place', which is a bizarrely 1940s' idea. But hey.

Damien Broderick





From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it  Mon Feb 23 19:37:05 2004
From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:37:05 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alleged Climate Collapse
In-Reply-To: <20040223161539.87927.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040223161539.87927.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0402232034540.216@hercules>

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

>
>You are unfamiliar with glacial morphology, like most of the public,
>and are just buying into the propaganda. An Ice Shelf is ice which is
>already sitting in the water. When Ice Shelf ice melts, it displaces no
>more or less water, so its melting does not change the sea levels
>whatsoever. Absolutely NO Ice Cap ice has collapsed. The ocean levels
>are NOT rising.

That's mostly true. When a floating ice shelf melts, the fresh water that
goes into the ocean is a little less dense than the salt water volume that
was displaced by the ice. So the sea level will rise a little, but the
effect is probably too small to be measured.

Alfio



From mathew at alcor.org  Mon Feb 23 21:00:27 2004
From: mathew at alcor.org (Mathew Sullivan)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 13:00:27 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Alcor Life Extension Foundation Press Release
Message-ID: <6.0.0.22.0.20040223125954.01bac278@mail.alcor.org>

An Open Letter Concerning Cryonics Regulation

How media sensationalism catalyzed
an assault on individual rights in Arizona

By Brian Wowk, PhD

February 22, 2004

"No man's life, liberty or property are safe while the Legislature is in 
session"

                                                                  ---- 
Judge Gideon J. Tucker (1866)

                 Since 1972, more than 700 people have made arrangements to 
be cryopreserved by the Alcor Life Extension Foundation of Scottsdale, 
Arizona.  These people believe their right to choose Alcor, and the 
procedures performed by Alcor, are as fundamentally important as the right 
of all dying patients to choose their own care.  In the case of Alcor, its 
members believe that the neurological information archived by Alcor might 
someday save their lives by allowing access to advanced future technology.

                 While cryonics remains controversial, a cursory review of 
the numerous writings and conduct of people in the field shows that they 
are sincere.  It also appears that Alcor in particular seeks and implements 
the best technologies it can find to achieve its objectives.  In most cases 
these technologies have been implemented under the guidance of physicians 
and scientists from mainstream medicine who are experts in their field.

                 Yet on Feb. 6, 2004, bill HB 2637 was introduced into the 
Arizona legislature.  This bill would remove authority over cryonics in 
Arizona from medical doctors and scientists operating under the Uniform 
Anatomical Gift Act (UAGA), and transfer authority to the Arizona Board of 
Funeral Directors and Embalmers.  This is despite the fact that cryonics as 
practiced by Alcor does not resemble embalming in any manner.  Even though 
cryonics is implemented after legal death, Alcor uses medical methods to 
preserve neurological information in living tissue, not to cosmetically 
preserve dead bodies.  For embalmers to assume authority over procedures 
created by brain resuscitation experts, thoracic surgeons, neurosurgeons, 
and organ preservation scientists, would be comparable to the Funeral Board 
assuming authority over the job of a brain surgeon.

                 The bill is being justified on the basis of consumer 
protection and "right to know" about cryonics procedures.  In fact Alcor 
has explained its procedures in detail in its magazine, books, monographs, 
and contracts for decades, and on the Internet for many years.  Even the 
most unsophisticated Alcor members seem to know more about Alcor procedures 
than funeral clients know about embalming or cremation.  There are no 
public reports that even a single Alcor member (i.e. consumer) wants this 
legislation.  In fact, on cryonics discussion lists, the cryonics consumer 
reaction to regulatory moves in recent months has been anger.  Instead of 
being treated with technology designed by scientists to preserve life, the 
final authority over their treatment would be transferred to a regulatory 
board that specializes in cosmetics and chemicals that destroy life.

                 The bill does not appear to be backed by anyone who has a 
personal interest in cryonics.  Furthermore, the regulatory board that this 
bill would impose on Alcor has made alarming comments about 
cryonics.  Arizona Funeral Board Director Rudy Thomas has been quoted as 
saying, "There's no difference between cryonics and cremation," (Arizona 
Capitol Times, 23 Sept 2003) and "These companies need to be regulated or 
deregulated out of business" (New York Times, 14 Oct 2003).  Even if Mr. 
Thomas is merely indifferent to cryonics, and not hostile, there is no 
assurance that his successor will feel the same.  The bill gives the 
Funeral Board a blank slate to prescribe or proscribe cryonics procedures, 
even though it disclaims the entire purpose of the field.  It is "consumer 
protection" championed by non-consumers over the objections of actual 
consumers of cryonics.  How did Alcor ever become the target of such 
patently wrong legislation?

Allegations of Wrongdoing

                 During the month of August, 2003, a Sports Illustrated 
article alleging mistreatment of a high profile case during 
cryopreservation by Alcor appeared on newsstands. The article alleged that 
a head had been separated from a body, "shaved, drilled with holes, 
accidentally cracked as many as 10 times...."  In the article, and 
especially in the media coverage that followed, these allegations were 
presented as shocking news of mishandling and negligence at Alcor.

The Facts

                 Alcor has been performing neuropreservation (preservation 
of the brain within the head) as a cryonics procedure for decades.  Most 
Alcor members prefer neuropreservation, in part because it results in less 
brain injury than whole body freezing.  Cryonicists believe that 
preservation of the brain is the most important part of cryonics.  Most 
"patients" now in storage at Alcor are in fact neuropreservation 
cases.  That Alcor preserves brains within heads is almost common 
knowledge.  The only thing new in recent media reports about 
neuropreservation at Alcor is the sensationalization of the procedure.

                 What about "drilled with holes?"  To monitor the state of 
the brain during its procedures, Alcor makes two small (1/4") holes in the 
skull using a standard neurosurgical tool called a perforator.  That's 
it.  Any brain surgery patient in any hospital will have these same holes 
made using the same tool to begin a procedure called craniotomy to access 
the brain.  One can only imagine why Sports Illustrated chose to draw 
attention to such a minor procedure, and describe it with the words it did.

                 What about cracking?  In September, 1984, Alcor published 
in Cryonics magazine the first paper that documented  fracturing as a 
problem in large organs cooled to the temperature of liquid 
nitrogen.  Mainstream scientific journals (Cryobiology) have since 
published research suggesting that fracturing (not breaking) is to be 
expected in all large organs preserved by vitrification during cooling 
below -150 degC.  Ironically, the same week that the Sports Illustrated 
story came out, Carnegie Mellon University announced a $1.3 million grant 
from the federal government specifically to solve the problem of fracturing 
during cryopreservation.  None of this research would be going on if the 
cause of fracturing were careless handling, as implied by media coverage.

Virtues Portrayed as Vices

                 Perhaps the most unfair aspect of the allegations against 
Alcor is that conscientious and well-justified procedures were perceived as 
wrongdoing.

                 Why does Alcor remove heads?  Because, according to Alcor, 
that allows the best possible preservation of the brain.  The brain is the 
primary target of preservation in cryonics.

                 Why doesn't Alcor just remove the brain?  Because the 
brain would be injured in the process.

                 Why does Alcor make two small holes in the skull?  To 
properly monitor the brain.

                 Why does Alcor get "cracks"?  All large organs treated 
with chemicals to suppress ice formation develop invisible fractures during 
deep cooling.  Alcor was the first institution anywhere to discover and 
monitor fracturing with a unique acoustic (sound detection) 
technology.  Nobody would even know about this problem were it not for 
Alcor's extraordinary efforts to measure and document it during cryonics 
cases.

Sensational Journalism

                 Other articles following the Sports Illustrated story were 
even more extreme.  The same source cited in the Sports Illustrated story 
was quoted delivering a rich variety of inflammatory invectives, including 
"unethical", "sickening", "ghastly", "horrific", "desecrated", "destroyed." 
Surgical instruments became woodworking tools.  Cryogenic dewars, named 
after their inventor, became "gods" named after a brand of 
whiskey.  (Florida Today, 16 Aug 2003).

                 Journalists continued the escalation.  A former COO became 
a former CEO (Associated Press, 15 Aug 2003).  Two small holes became 
"drilled with holes" (Sports Illustrated, 18 Aug 2003).  "Drilled with 
holes" became "cracked when holes were drilled in it" (Arizona Capitol 
Times, 17 Feb 2004).  Local TV stations produced graphic animations showing 
a skull cracking and splitting open.  (There has never been a reported case 
in published scientific literature, or Alcor technical reports, of bone 
ever fracturing during cryopreservation.)  And the witch hunt was on.

                 Consider if a journalist did this expose of the funeral 
industry: "Funeral Home Scandal: Bodies injected with poison, organs 
mutilated, remains stuffed into wood boxes and covered with dirt!"  It's 
all true, right?  Of course, if a disgruntled apprentice embalmer went to a 
sports magazine describing in graphic detail the use of a trocar during 
embalming of a sports celebrity, or the physical effects of cremation, he 
would be escorted out of the building by security.

The Question of Regulation

                 Arguments for funeral board regulation of cryonics neglect 
a very basic difference between the way Alcor and the funeral industry 
operate.  Most funeral business is "at-need," meaning that grieving 
families seek to arrange services for their loved ones after they are 
deceased.  There is no time for research or investigation of the product or 
facility performing the procedure.  Cryonics, however, is almost entirely 
"pre-need."  People join Alcor before they need Alcor, and typically spend 
years "kicking the tires" before they finally join.  It's very rare for 
Alcor to accept cryonics cases arranged by next-of-kin.  Unless there is a 
history of involvement or interest in cryonics by the family, informed 
consent is practically impossible under such circumstances.

                 The best proof that Alcor handles informed consent well is 
that in 32 years of Alcor history, no reports can be found of anyone 
choosing cryonics with Alcor ever going to reporters or authorities to 
complain that they were misled by Alcor, or regretted their choice of 
Alcor.  Even the family members reported by media to have arranged the 
cryopreservation alleged by Sports Illustrated (the two youngest children) 
have expressed no dissatisfaction.  Only the eldest daughter, who never 
wanted cryonics, has complained.  Similarly, the disgruntled ex-employee 
who alleged wrongdoing at Alcor has apparently disclaimed interest in 
cryonics for himself (New York Times, 14 Aug 2003).

                 Where, then, are the dissatisfied consumers?  Where are 
the unhappy Alcor members?  Where are the family members that wanted 
cryonics for a loved one, but were let down by it?  There appear to be 
none.  There are only people who don't understand cryonics, people who 
don't want cryonics, and people who don't like what they read in newspapers 
about cryonics.  That is not sufficient justification for a majority to use 
government force to assume control of a technology desired by a minority 
with beliefs different from theirs.


Respectfully,

Brian Wowk, PhD
Physicist and Cryobiologist
Corona, California

---------------------------------------------------------------------------


Mathew Sullivan (mathew at alcor.org)

Alcor Life Extension Foundation
7895 E. Acoma Dr., Suite 110, Scottsdale AZ 85260-6916
Membership Information: (877) GO-ALCOR (462-5267)
Phone (480) 905-1906 FAX (480) 922-9027
info at alcor.org for general requests

http://www.alcor.org

The Alcor Life Extension Foundation was founded in 1972 as a non-profit, 
tax-exempt 501(c)(3) organization, and has 59 patients in cryostasis. Alcor 
is the world's largest provider of professional cryotransport services with 
over 660 members who have pre-arranged for cryotransport. Alcor's Emergency 
CryoTransport System (ECS) is a medical-style rescue network patterned 
after Emergency Medical System (EMS). Alcor CryoTransport Technicians, as 
with EMTs and Paramedics on an ambulance, are advised by our Medical 
Director, Jerry Lemler MD or other physicians who are Alcor members and/or 
contract physicians.


If you start everything...
you will finish nothing.  




From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Feb 23 20:03:45 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 20:03:45 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] 14 Superfoods for long life?
Message-ID: <403A5CA1.6090207@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

BBC TV news has just shown a news item about a new book that lists 14
"super foods" that fight disease and prolong life.

SuperFoods Rx : Fourteen Foods That Will Change Your Life
by Steven G. Pratt, Kathy Matthews

<http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/81/96952.htm>

<http://content.health.msn.com/content/article/82/97166.htm>

The 14 foods recommended are:

# Beans: A great low-fat, low-calorie source of protein and an easy way
to help control your weight and your blood sugar.
# Blueberries: The best food on the planet to preserve a young brain as
we mature.
# Broccoli: The best food on the planet to prevent cancer.
# Oats: A sure-fire way to lower your cholesterol.
# Oranges: The most readily available source of vitamin C, which in turn
lowers the rate of most causes of death in this country, for example,
heart disease and cancer.
# Pumpkin: Loaded with phytonutrients, which keep our skin young and
help prevent damage from sunlight.
# Wild salmon: A guaranteed way to lower your risk for cardiac-related
death.
# Soy: The only complete vegetarian source of protein.
# Spinach: The best food on the planet to prevent cataracts and
age-related macular degeneration, thus ensuring a lifetime of good vision.
# Tea -- green or black: The easiest and cheapest no-calorie way to
avoid heart disease and cancer.
# Tomatoes: One of the easiest ways for men to avoid prostate cancer is
the consumption of tomatoes and tomato-based products.
# Skinless turkey breast: The leanest meat source of protein on the planet.
# Walnuts: Consuming walnuts is an easy, tasty way to lower your risk of
cardiovascular disease.
# Yogurt: A tasty, easy way to boost your immune system.

One good point is that he also recommends similar alternatives for each
item. e.g. Licopene, the red pigment in tomatoes, is also found in pink
grapefruit, watermelon, and some types of papaya.

In general it all seems to be sensible advice. The only one I found some
reservations about is soy products.

These foods have all been recommended by many other people and I don't
see any harm in adding them to your diet.

Anybody else heard about this diet change?

BillK




From eugen at leitl.org  Mon Feb 23 20:35:04 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:35:04 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] flash crowd super computer
In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.0.20040223124601.01b81ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040223124601.01b81ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040223203504.GD21307@leitl.org>

On Mon, Feb 23, 2004 at 12:51:28PM -0600, Damien Broderick wrote:

> Actually, it could be an idea from a Dam Clemmensen post to this forum, 
> cited in THE SPIKE seven years ago--except that Dan's approach to a home 
> brew singularity-grade AI *didn't* require all the machines to be 
> physically `in one place', which is a bizarrely 1940s' idea. But hey.

It isn't as bizarre as it sounds. If you want to be able to talk any machine
to any other without interfering, you need a lot of wire, and a big crossbar
(or equivalent) switch. For many reasons, chiefly because of minimizing fibre
length and because crossbars don't scale nor do long-haul protocols suit to
switching the Internet is a (meshed) tree.

If you bring many machines into one location, and make them talk pure Ethernet
frames instead of TCP/IP over arbitrary carrier you can achieve a far greater
bandwidth crossection (and a vastly smaller latency to boot) with lots less
thaler$.

Having this said, it's largely a synthetic benchmark. A lot of codes rely on
modern interconnect fabric such as Infiniband, Myrinet and SCI. These do make
even GBit Ethernet look very pale in comparison.

An AI to end all AIs won't need a globar crossbar, of course. It should be
able to live on a globally meshed fabric with FastEthernet port equivalent,
on a GBit/10 GBit backbone.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From neptune at superlink.net  Mon Feb 23 21:11:34 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:11:34 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] CFP: Books for review for RAE
Message-ID: <007201c3fa51$9f58d580$e4cd5cd1@neptune>

Here's a chance for some of you to break into yet another journal and
write to a different audience.

Dan

From: Steven Horwitz sghorwitz at STLAWU.EDU
To: HAYEK-L at MAELSTROM.STJOHNS.EDU
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 10:13 AM
Subject: [HAYEK-L:] Books for review


Hayek list colleagues,

In my capacity as book review editor of the Review of Austrian
Economics, I have three books I'd like to have reviewed but have yet to
find a willing reviewer for.  If you are interested, please email me
off-list.

The books are:

*Carl Menger and the Evolution of Payment Systems* ed. by Latzer and
Schmitz

*Darwinian Politics:  The Evolutionary Origin of Freedom* by Paul Rubin

*Big Players and the Economic Theory of Expectations* by Roger Koppl

Thanks in advance.

Steve

--
Steven Horwitz
Professor of Economics
Associate Dean of the First Year
Interim Director, Center for Teaching and Learning
Whitman Hall
St. Lawrence University
Canton, NY 13617
FYP Tel (315) 229-5909
CTL Tel (315) 229-5981
Fax (315) 229-5709
Web: http://it.stlawu.edu/shor



From thespike at satx.rr.com  Mon Feb 23 21:35:33 2004
From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:35:33 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] flash crowd super computer
In-Reply-To: <20040223203504.GD21307@leitl.org>
References: <6.0.3.0.0.20040223124601.01b81ca8@pop-server.satx.rr.com>
	<20040223203504.GD21307@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.0.20040223153358.01bda8e0@pop-server.satx.rr.com>

At 09:35 PM 2/23/2004 +0100, Eugen wrote:

>If you want to be able to talk any machine
>to any other without interfering, you need a lot of wire, and a big crossbar
>(or equivalent) switch. For many reasons, chiefly because of minimizing fibre
>length and because crossbars don't scale nor do long-haul protocols suit to
>switching the Internet is a (meshed) tree.
>
>If you bring many machines into one location, and make them talk pure Ethernet
>frames instead of TCP/IP over arbitrary carrier you can achieve a far greater
>bandwidth crossection (and a vastly smaller latency to boot) with lots less
>thaler$.

Yeah. But...

It depends what you want to do. If you need an AI mind as an existence 
proof and test bed, it might not matter that it runs slow. Presumably it 
will eventually re-write and iteratively optimize itself to work around the 
lags, and go on to devise nano systems able to build compact gadgets it can 
port itself to.

Granted, that's not what the teacher had in mind.

Damien Broderick 




From patrick at bung.demon.co.uk  Mon Feb 23 21:56:50 2004
From: patrick at bung.demon.co.uk (Patrick M Young)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 21:56:50 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip communicate
	withthe brain
References: <20040222214306.98448.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <020601c3fa57$f1402f00$0f01a8c0@home>

This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall approach to scientific comment.

Your winding us up ... right?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2004 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip communicate
withthe brain


> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 <gpmap at runbox.com> wrote:
> > >From CNEWS: Researchers at the University of
> > Calgary have found that nerve
> > cells grown on a microchip can learn and memorize
> > information which can be
> > communicated to the brain. This is a giant leap in
> > answering several
> > fundamental questions of biology and
> > neuro-electronics that will pave the
> > way for us to harness the power of nanotechnology.
>
> ...huh?  This seems like a mere confirmation of
> something no one had any reason to doubt.  A minor
> step, at most.  (It's progress, yes, but let's save
> the "giant leap" celebrations for truly giant leaps,
> lest everyone get burned out on this field before the
> truly giant leaps arrive.)
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com  Mon Feb 23 22:04:53 2004
From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:04:53 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Time Travel
Message-ID: <56BC65EB2F3963489057F7D978B5E7B7DB3A8E@amazemail2.amazeent.com>

You cannot make a measurement without interfering with the 
system.  Not only does the measurement interfere with the
system, but your scenario seems to violate causality because
the information needed to perform the scan must be sent back 
in time.

Acy

[ -----Original Message-----
[ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
[ [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
[ Rob Wilkes
[ Sent: Saturday, 21 February, 2004 21:05
[ To: 'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'
[ Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Time Travel
[ 
[ 
[ What do you think about the following scenario: At some point 
[ in the future 
[ a time travel (of sorts) is developed where information from 
[ the past can 
[ be retrieved in complete detail (e.g. molecular detail).  If 
[ a decison was 
[ made to retrieve a person from the past, and the technology 
[ to construct a 
[ person from that information existed then a person could be 
[ brought to the 
[ future by reassembling them from thier past information 
[ "signature."  Sort 
[ of like Star Trek transporter technology "beaming" a person 
[ from the past 
[ to the future.  If there was the capacity in the future to 
[ assimilate these 
[ reassembled folks then as many people could be retireved as desired. 
[ Information could be captured at the point of that person's 
[ death and a new 
[ body could be constructed.  Perhaps only congnitive and 
[ memory aspects 
[ would be replicated exactly, while the body was replaced with 
[ a healthy 
[ one.  Does this start to sound like resurrection and 
[ afterlife?  So, let's 
[ see.  We, the decendents of nth grandmother Bessie decide to 
[ "retrieve" her 
[ from the past.  She arrives in the future to be greeted by us (her 
[ descendents) and other "retrieved" family members.  Sort of 
[ the ultimate 
[ family reunion.  Note that in this scenario no one interferes 
[ with the 
[ past, they just "read it", and replicate the desired parts.
[ 
[ 


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Mon Feb 23 22:29:39 2004
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 14:29:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a scientific
	approach
In-Reply-To: <003101c3f660$c8c2aa80$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <20040223222939.45894.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com>



Russell Evermore <nanowave at shaw.ca> wrote:
 What is the proposed substrate that carries away our pattern at
the "moment" of death? Oxygen, nitrogen, helium? Nope. Just the
gossamer threads of angel snot.


      I think that it would be a mistake to assume that the pattern that is carried away at death (if there is one) would need a substrate. This reminds me of the old physical theory of "ether" being needed as a medium to explain the propagation of electromagnetic radiation. It is entirely conceivable to those who maintain an open mind that the so called "soul" may be an interference pattern of electromagnetic or quantum nature that can maintain its integrity apart from any substrate. I don't have experimental proof so I don't expect to sway any hard headed opinions on this.

 I do however know that there was a series of experiments performed by a physician named MacDougall who published his results in both the "New Yorker" and "The American Medical Journal" in 1907. He used a specially built death-bed/beam balance to measure the patient's mass. Each of the six patients that died on his death bed lost of mass of 21 grams. This loss of mass apparently happened suddenly enough to cause the beam to slam into the beam stop. I googled it and got this http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp          

Now I am not certain that this MacDougal's results are accurate but I do suggest that people on this list do not completely dismiss the empirical pursuit of the soul as it were as a complete joke. I for one would like to see some modern experiments along those lines with a larger sample size. Moreover there are certain people on the list (you know who you are) need to refrain from consistently insulting the intelligences of people on this list who post articles of interest to those who have a spritual bent such as "dualists" "christians" or " zen neovitalistic pantheists" such as myself. In doing so you are exhibiting a prejudice as bad as antisemitism. Especially with all the whining on the list about popularizing "extropianism" or going mainstream with it. Considering that about 60% of the USA and just over 50% of all scientists consider themselves to be spiritual, you should be trying to ally with spiritualists and not alienating them. After all living in a democracy, like it or
 not, they control things.

Of course if you guys are ok with remaining an elitist think tank on the fringes of society at large then that's ok too.  Just decide one way or another. 



The Avantguardian 


"He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 00:36:04 2004
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 16:36:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Happy Birthday Gina!
In-Reply-To: <20040223222939.45894.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040224003604.19147.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com>


Happy Birthday Gina.

As far as the AFM goes, it is a little beyond my means. But I can show you the website of a company in germany that sells a cute little one called the BerMad AFM that fits on your desktop and is controlled by a Windows NT app. I of course would prefer the BioLyser since it can do optical and fluorescence work too.

http://www.triple-o.de/Triple-O.Microscopy.html

Anyways, happy drooling. ;)

 

 



The Avantguardian 


"He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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From naddy at mips.inka.de  Tue Feb 24 01:54:24 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 01:54:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: SPAM: more news
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160829481.19995-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
	<20040216221129.GU18983@leitl.org>
	<c1000h$qfm$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <c1easg$2t77$2@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:

> Funky catchphrases aside, it would be helpful if more operating
> system vendors adopted the safety net technologies pioneered (not
> necessarily invented, but first widely deployed) by OpenBSD, [...]

PS:
Theo de Raadt delivered a talk on this at PacSec '03 in Tokyo.
There is a nice series of slides summarizing the steps taken at
http://www.openbsd.org/papers/pacsec03/e/

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Tue Feb 24 02:23:50 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:23:50 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Re: Journal publisher bares all
Message-ID: <403AB5B6.83651385@mindspring.com>

[obsessed internet librarian raises his hand... -twc]


     Those of you who like to ping the depths of academic literature for
a bit of treasure amidst all the seaweed may want to visit:

< http://www.sagepublications.com/freeaccess.htm >

Sage is throwing open it's whole electronic journal database until the end
of next month (3/31).

gj

----------------------

Oh good, I can finally read the Journal of Wide Bandgap Materials for free.

Seriously, most of these sound like they are highly specialized professional
journals that wouldn't be of interest to anyone not working in those fields.
Why open it up to the world like this? Do they really think the general public
is interested enough to pay for the privilege of reading them after March 31?

---
Dean A. Batha 

----------------------

I found an interesting one ("Transactions of the Society for Modeling and 
Simulation International"... interesting is a subjective term, I agree :)

I think the idea is not to reach the general public, but the experts. And 
it is not to convince them to cough up the money, but to nag their 
departments, institutions, or companies to do it for them.

Best,
Ludi

Ludwig Krippahl 


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Feb 24 06:41:46 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 22:41:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip communicate
	withthe brain
In-Reply-To: <020601c3fa57$f1402f00$0f01a8c0@home>
Message-ID: <20040224064146.12194.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall approach to
> scientific comment.
> 
> Your winding us up ... right?

No, just grumbling about the potential deleterous
effects of excessive hype, and labelling this as an
example of excessive hype.


From spike66 at comcast.net  Tue Feb 24 07:11:36 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:11:36 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402230842460.30069-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3faa5$70e3c8f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


I know a lot of Europeans hang out on extropians.
Do offer me advice on this, offlist is fine, altho
many here might be interested in your answer.  

I am looking at a new car and I like the BMWs and
Volvos, but they cost about half again as much
as a comparable 'murican car.  Question: in Germany,
does a beemer cost half again what an American
car costs, or are they about the same?  In Sweden,
how do American car costs compare with Volvos?  Im
trying to figure out how much of the cost differential
is due to import costs and how much due to, I assume,
higher quality parts and accessories?  Or what?  Im
a motorcycle guy, don't know from cars.  In motorcycles,
BMWs are good, but maybe not as much better as the
cost differential would suggest.  Naddy, do you know
from cars?  Anders?

spike









From the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 24 09:24:24 2004
From: the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com (Tom's name Here)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:24:24 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a
	scientific approach
Message-ID: <BAY2-F21xfE9oh46Yiu00000e9f@hotmail.com>

The Avantguardian <mailto:avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
"Now I am not certain that this MacDougal's results are accurate but I do 
suggest that people on this list do not completely dismiss the empirical 
pursuit of the soul as it were as a complete joke. I for one would like to 
see some modern experiments along those lines with a larger sample size."

I agree, no theory should be discarded simply because it deals with 
nonscientific topics. However, no theory should be seriously considered (or 
experimented on) if it cannot pass a simple logic test:

According to this hypothesis of soul weight, the soul leaves the body when 
the person dies. So when does the person die? This may seem like a stupid 
question, but while the line between consciousness and unconsciousness is 
clear, the line between life and death is hazy, although still undoubtedly 
there.

There is not specific time or point of death. Death is more a transition, a 
gradient gray area. As a person dies, his brain cells starve for oxygen and 
die off one by one; they do not die in one orchestrated, Hollywood-friendly 
moment.

Since there is not a specific point death occurs, there cannot be a specific 
point at which the soul escapes.

_________________________________________________________________
Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed 
Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/



From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 24 13:00:41 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:00:41 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
Message-ID: <403B4AF9.3020100@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:11 am Spike wrote:
> I know a lot of Europeans hang out on extropians.
> Do offer me advice on this, offlist is fine, altho
> many here might be interested in your answer.
>
> I am looking at a new car and I like the BMWs and
> Volvos, but they cost about half again as much
> as a comparable 'murican car.
>

The car industry wants you to treat your car as a fashion item.
Don't do it! This will be expensive if you go along with them.

To help you choose, you need
<http://www.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/78388/page001.html>

True cost to own (including running costs and depreciation)
<http://www.edmunds.com/apps/cto/intro.do>

Basics:
Don't buy a new car. The first year depreciation is about 25%, so on a
$44000 car you save about $11000 by buying a one year old model.

The devaluing dollar makes all imports expensive at present.
Are you a traitor? - buy American ;)

In UK, BMWs are bought by people who want to show off their wealth,
e.g. yuppies and drug dealers.

Volvos have a staid, reliable, well-off old-folks image.

The edmunds site above is packed full of useful data on everything to do
with cars. Have a good look round there.


BillK




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Tue Feb 24 13:28:10 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 05:28:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] AGING: more progress
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402240517230.21282-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Well, another shoe drops.  The NY Times has an article today
interviewing Dr. Nir Barzilai.

February 24, 2004
Centenarians' Inner Secrets Are Slowly Revealed
By CLAUDIA DREIFUS
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/24/health/24CONV.html?pagewanted=print

It documents how High Density Lipoprotein particle size may be
an important determinant of longevity and quality of aging.

This appears to be associated with polymorphisms (variations)
in the cholesteryl ester transfer protein (CETP) gene.

Relevant PubMed article:
JAMA. 2003 Oct 15;290(15):2030-40, Parzilai, N. et al.
Unique lipoprotein phenotype and genotype associated with exceptional longevity.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14559957&dopt=Abstract

Now interestingly, this discovery would probably be one of the best
cases for genetic engineering of ones children that I'm aware of.

Robert




From scerir at libero.it  Tue Feb 24 14:21:00 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 15:21:00 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
References: <000001c3faa5$70e3c8f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <000401c3fae1$76bf4ce0$e4b21b97@administxl09yj>

Quattroruote (4-wheels) is our best magazine
http://www.quattroruote.it/auto/avvio.cfm
and there is a fine page here
http://www.quattroruote.it/auto/GuidaAcquisto/auto_nuove/marca001.cfm?templa
te=marca01.cfm
so you can choose your favorite and also realize
the price, in Euros, in Italy.
Look, the cheapest place in Europe is Belgium,
dunno why, but there are very different prices,
in the range +/- 10%, or even more, for the same
model, through Europe.
s.



From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 24 14:42:03 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:42:03 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
Message-ID: <LAW9-F84tIIZS2TRqf600001de8@hotmail.com>

Don't forget the optimal swedish car, the saab. Drive both a saab and a 
volvo and see what you think.

BAL

>From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
>To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
>Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:11:36 -0800
>
>
>I know a lot of Europeans hang out on extropians.
>Do offer me advice on this, offlist is fine, altho
>many here might be interested in your answer.
>
>I am looking at a new car and I like the BMWs and
>Volvos, but they cost about half again as much
>as a comparable 'murican car.  Question: in Germany,
>does a beemer cost half again what an American
>car costs, or are they about the same?  In Sweden,
>how do American car costs compare with Volvos?  Im
>trying to figure out how much of the cost differential
>is due to import costs and how much due to, I assume,
>higher quality parts and accessories?  Or what?  Im
>a motorcycle guy, don't know from cars.  In motorcycles,
>BMWs are good, but maybe not as much better as the
>cost differential would suggest.  Naddy, do you know
>from cars?  Anders?
>
>spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_________________________________________________________________
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/



From neptune at superlink.net  Tue Feb 24 15:23:10 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:23:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
References: <LAW9-F84tIIZS2TRqf600001de8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ef01c3faea$1d5c8600$47cd5cd1@neptune>

If you're looking used, may I suggest the McLaren F-1?  Rides like a
superbike.

Dan



From amara at amara.com  Tue Feb 24 15:23:16 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:23:16 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Interactive star charts and the sky above Rosetta
Message-ID: <p05100300bc610e139f2d@[150.146.134.133]>

(Something cool I stumbled across)

You've probably known about the Sky and Telescope interactive star
chart http://skyandtelescope.com/observing/skychart/ and John Walker's
Fourmilab interactive star chart http://www.fourmilab.to/yoursky/
but, did you know that the weatherunderground.com has one too?
Their star chart automatically inputs your latitude and longitude
so that you are saved the extra step.

For example, here is the sky above Kourou, French Guiana, where
the Rosetta spacecraft will be launched (hopefully) early morning
Thursday

http://www.weatherunderground.com/sky/ShowSky.asp?TheLat=5.19999981&TheLon=-52.75000000&TimeZoneName=America/Cayenne

(checking the weather, shows chance of rain through Friday, unfortunately)

and here is the sky above where I am:

http://www.weatherunderground.com/sky/ShowSky.asp?TheLat=41.79999924&TheLon=12.55000019&TimeZoneName=Europe/Rome


You can see more details on the Rosetta launch here:

http://www.arianespace.com/site/news/news_sub_missionupdate_index.html
(Launch window begins 4:36 am French Guiana time Thursday,
8:36am  Mainland Europe time)

Kourou Ground Station ESA
http://www.esoc.esa.de/pr/stations/kourou.php3

Kourou Webcam via DLR
http://www.dlr.de/DLR-Rosetta/video/rosetta_live.html


Amara

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF),
Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR,
Roma, ITALIA     Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it


From neptune at superlink.net  Tue Feb 24 15:46:21 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:46:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a
	scientific approach
References: <BAY2-F21xfE9oh46Yiu00000e9f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <013b01c3faed$5ad1d500$47cd5cd1@neptune>

On Tuesday, February 24, 2004 4:24 AM Tom's name Here
the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com wrote:
> According to this hypothesis of soul weight,
> the soul leaves the body when the person
> dies. So when does the person die? This
> may seem like a stupid question, but while
> the line between consciousness and
> unconsciousness is clear, the line between
> life and death is hazy, although still undoubtedly
> there.

Is the line between "consciousness and unconsciousness" really "clear"?
How do you know that?  Do you mean cessation of electrical activity in
the brain?

> There is not specific time or point of death.
> Death is more a transition, a gradient gray
> area. As a person dies, his brain cells
> starve for oxygen and die off one by one;
> they do not die in one orchestrated,
> Hollywood-friendly moment.

This appears to be the case.

> Since there is not a specific point death
> occurs, there cannot be a specific point
> at which the soul escapes.

Ah, but this assumes that the soul leaves according to these outward
appearances.  Let's play Devil's Advocate.  Let's say there is a soul
and it does leave the body.  Now it could leave very quickly, perhaps
even instantaneously, or it could leave slowly, pulling out.  If the
latter, then that death does not come immediately would not be evidence
against there being a soul.  If the former, it could always be that the
soul leaves the body after it reaches a point of not return or after
it's all dead.  I mean one could imagine the soul sticks around until
every last cell is gone.  No of these seems to contradict logic in any
way.

Now, matching this up to MacDougall's findings is another story.  I
would first question his findings.  After all, this was almost a century
ago and the sample size was very small.

Also, I would want to know what other evidence is there for a soul.
After all, during death, many changes happen to the body, some of which
release gases.  They could account for differences in mass, if there are
any.  One could also test this by sealing a dying person in a chamber,
so no appreciable mass is exchanged with the outside world.  Of course,
one might argue that the soul needs to escape too, but we could just
take an inventory of all the matter in the chamber before and after
death, and after opening it, when, presumably, the soul would escape.

My bet is MacDougall would be proven wrong, but that's only a guess.

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From natashavita at earthlink.net  Tue Feb 24 15:46:47 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:46:47 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Interactive star charts and the sky above Rosetta
Message-ID: <174210-220042224154647853@M2W078.mail2web.com>


Amara Graps wrote:

>(Something cool I stumbled across)


>and here is the sky above where I am:

>http://www.weatherunderground.com/sky/ShowSky.asp?>TheLat=41.79999924&TheLo
n=12.55000019&TimeZoneName=Europe/Rome

Ringraziarlo mi amichi! Molto, molto fresco. Il bel cielo di notte. 

Natasha


--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From scerir at libero.it  Tue Feb 24 15:51:38 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:51:38 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
References: <LAW9-F84tIIZS2TRqf600001de8@hotmail.com>
	<00ef01c3faea$1d5c8600$47cd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <001001c3faee$176a9fd0$bcb31b97@administxl09yj>

> If you're looking used, may I suggest the McLaren F-1? 
> Rides like a superbike. 
> Dan

... not to mention the 'Isetta', 
Renzo Rivolta designer,
manufactured by Iso-Rivolta,
http://www.whirlingpool.com/isetta/history/history.htm
then also by BMW (!!),
http://home.earthlink.net/~isetta/
http://hometown.aol.com/isettadr/
or the 'Ape' ('Bee') by  Piaggio
http://www.it.vtl.piaggio.com/50furgone.htm
http://www.it.vtl.piaggio.com/ape.htm




From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Feb 24 18:05:56 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 18:05:56 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] european imports
Message-ID: <403B9284.7010100@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Tue Feb 24, 2004 08:51 am scerir wrote:
> or the 'Ape' ('Bee') by Piaggio
> http://www.it.vtl.piaggio.com/50furgone.htm
> http://www.it.vtl.piaggio.com/ape.htm
>

Wonderful! The pick-up version is just the car for Spike.

<http://www.it.vtl.piaggio.com/cross.htm>

  The Pick-up trendy!

Thanks to the colors of the auto body and "the young" equipments of
series, Bee Cross Country is the three Piaggio wheels more trendy.

- SURE , with the roll-bar, front and posterior bumper, third light of
stop and wide rearvision mirrors.
- COMFORTABLE , because you can transport the table to us from surf or
snowboard in the platform while you listen to your preferred music with
the car radio that it finds of series.

With Bee 50 never unnoticed Cross Country!


And that's the truth!  :)

BillK





From patrick at bung.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 24 19:40:17 2004
From: patrick at bung.demon.co.uk (Patrick M Young)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 19:40:17 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip
	communicatewiththe brain
References: <20040224064146.12194.qmail@web80407.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3fb0e$07eb9760$0f01a8c0@home>

My apologies.

I bought the paper & read it.

I got the impression that it extends previous work, albeit incrementally.

However, it also demonstrated potentiation of synapses by electronics is
possible. Synaptic modulation. Electronics that learn!

I may not be completely au fait with this area but that struck me as an
incredibly significant detail.

I would be proud to have achieved this & be published.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip
communicatewiththe brain


> --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall approach to
> > scientific comment.
> >
> > Your winding us up ... right?
>
> No, just grumbling about the potential deleterous
> effects of excessive hype, and labelling this as an
> example of excessive hype.
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 24 19:51:51 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:51:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip
	communicatewiththe brain
In-Reply-To: <000801c3fb0e$07eb9760$0f01a8c0@home>
Message-ID: <20040224195151.69226.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>

This story is nothing new. Neurons have been getting grown on chips for
a number of years now.

--- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> My apologies.
> 
> I bought the paper & read it.
> 
> I got the impression that it extends previous work, albeit
> incrementally.
> 
> However, it also demonstrated potentiation of synapses by electronics
> is
> possible. Synaptic modulation. Electronics that learn!
> 
> I may not be completely au fait with this area but that struck me as
> an
> incredibly significant detail.
> 
> I would be proud to have achieved this & be published.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:41 AM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip
> communicatewiththe brain
> 
> 
> > --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > > This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall approach to
> > > scientific comment.
> > >
> > > Your winding us up ... right?
> >
> > No, just grumbling about the potential deleterous
> > effects of excessive hype, and labelling this as an
> > example of excessive hype.
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Tue Feb 24 21:59:56 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 13:59:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchip
	communicatewiththe brain
In-Reply-To: <20040224195151.69226.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040224215956.69610.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

What Mike said.  My graduate thesis back in '96 was on
this topic, and I've been aware of commercially
available chips specifically designed and marketed
for computer-neuron communication (i.e., grow or
thread neurons through the chip, and wire the chip to
whatever electronics you want to read from and/or
write to the neurons) since at least '99.

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> This story is nothing new. Neurons have been getting
> grown on chips for
> a number of years now.
> 
> --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > My apologies.
> > 
> > I bought the paper & read it.
> > 
> > I got the impression that it extends previous
> work, albeit
> > incrementally.
> > 
> > However, it also demonstrated potentiation of
> synapses by electronics
> > is
> > possible. Synaptic modulation. Electronics that
> learn!
> > 
> > I may not be completely au fait with this area but
> that struck me as
> > an
> > incredibly significant detail.
> > 
> > I would be proud to have achieved this & be
> published.
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> > To: "ExI chat list"
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:41 AM
> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a
> microchip
> > communicatewiththe brain
> > 
> > 
> > > --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > > > This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall
> approach to
> > > > scientific comment.
> > > >
> > > > Your winding us up ... right?
> > >
> > > No, just grumbling about the potential
> deleterous
> > > effects of excessive hype, and labelling this as
> an
> > > example of excessive hype.
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> 
> =====
> Mike Lorrey
> "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
>                                        - Gen. John
> Stark
> "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
>                                        - Mike Lorrey
> Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From patrick at bung.demon.co.uk  Tue Feb 24 23:15:05 2004
From: patrick at bung.demon.co.uk (Patrick M Young)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 23:15:05 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchipcommunicatewiththe
	brain
References: <20040224215956.69610.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <005c01c3fb2c$09ecc2f0$0f01a8c0@home>

Excuse my naivet?

What would you say were the key papers in this field - since 1996?

A bibliography from those that know would be a useful resource (in the faq?)
for Extropianism (& me).

For the sake of informed debate.





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 9:59 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a
microchipcommunicatewiththe brain


> What Mike said.  My graduate thesis back in '96 was on
> this topic, and I've been aware of commercially
> available chips specifically designed and marketed
> for computer-neuron communication (i.e., grow or
> thread neurons through the chip, and wire the chip to
> whatever electronics you want to read from and/or
> write to the neurons) since at least '99.
>
> --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > This story is nothing new. Neurons have been getting
> > grown on chips for
> > a number of years now.
> >
> > --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > > My apologies.
> > >
> > > I bought the paper & read it.
> > >
> > > I got the impression that it extends previous
> > work, albeit
> > > incrementally.
> > >
> > > However, it also demonstrated potentiation of
> > synapses by electronics
> > > is
> > > possible. Synaptic modulation. Electronics that
> > learn!
> > >
> > > I may not be completely au fait with this area but
> > that struck me as
> > > an
> > > incredibly significant detail.
> > >
> > > I would be proud to have achieved this & be
> > published.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> > > To: "ExI chat list"
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:41 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a
> > microchip
> > > communicatewiththe brain
> > >
> > >
> > > > --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> > wrote:
> > > > > This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall
> > approach to
> > > > > scientific comment.
> > > > >
> > > > > Your winding us up ... right?
> > > >
> > > > No, just grumbling about the potential
> > deleterous
> > > > effects of excessive hype, and labelling this as
> > an
> > > > example of excessive hype.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > >
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Mike Lorrey
> > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
> >                                        - Gen. John
> > Stark
> > "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
> >                                        - Mike Lorrey
> > Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> > Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
> > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Wed Feb 25 00:08:35 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:08:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a microchipcommunicatewiththe
	brain
In-Reply-To: <005c01c3fb2c$09ecc2f0$0f01a8c0@home>
Message-ID: <20040225000835.75079.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

There are several researchers; I would reccomend you
Google around for the specific application you're
interested in.  But if you want starting points,
http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,61889,00.html
and
http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/030701/Neuron-chip_link_advances_030701.html
and
http://abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_93733.htm
could help.

Also, as it happens, my thesis was mainly a summary of
the research done prior to 1996, and an argument that
this application was possible.  (Not neuron-on-chip
itself, but a neuron-computer interface like what has
been put onto a chip.)  As such, its bibliography
contains a number of pointers to pre-1996 research in
the field.  I could email it to you directly (I'd
rather not spam the list) if this would be of use.

--- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Excuse my naivet?
> 
> What would you say were the key papers in this field
> - since 1996?
> 
> A bibliography from those that know would be a
> useful resource (in the faq?)
> for Extropianism (& me).
> 
> For the sake of informed debate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a
> microchipcommunicatewiththe brain
> 
> 
> > What Mike said.  My graduate thesis back in '96
> was on
> > this topic, and I've been aware of commercially
> > available chips specifically designed and marketed
> > for computer-neuron communication (i.e., grow or
> > thread neurons through the chip, and wire the chip
> to
> > whatever electronics you want to read from and/or
> > write to the neurons) since at least '99.
> >
> > --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > This story is nothing new. Neurons have been
> getting
> > > grown on chips for
> > > a number of years now.
> > >
> > > --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > > > My apologies.
> > > >
> > > > I bought the paper & read it.
> > > >
> > > > I got the impression that it extends previous
> > > work, albeit
> > > > incrementally.
> > > >
> > > > However, it also demonstrated potentiation of
> > > synapses by electronics
> > > > is
> > > > possible. Synaptic modulation. Electronics
> that
> > > learn!
> > > >
> > > > I may not be completely au fait with this area
> but
> > > that struck me as
> > > > an
> > > > incredibly significant detail.
> > > >
> > > > I would be proud to have achieved this & be
> > > published.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> > > > To: "ExI chat list"
> > > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:41 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown
> on a
> > > microchip
> > > > communicatewiththe brain
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- Patrick M Young
> <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall
> > > approach to
> > > > > > scientific comment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your winding us up ... right?
> > > > >
> > > > > No, just grumbling about the potential
> > > deleterous
> > > > > effects of excessive hype, and labelling
> this as
> > > an
> > > > > example of excessive hype.
> > > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > > >
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > Mike Lorrey
> > > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of
> Evils."
> > >                                        - Gen.
> John
> > > Stark
> > > "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
> > >                                        - Mike
> Lorrey
> > > Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> > > Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you
> want.
> > > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From enigl at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 25 00:21:09 2004
From: enigl at earthlink.net (Davin Enigl)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:21:09 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] =?iso-8859-1?q?NANOTECHNOLOGY_FOR_DRUG_DELIVERY_A?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?pril_21-_22=2C_2004_=B0_Park_Hyatt_=B0_Philadelphia?=
	=?iso-8859-1?q?=2C_PA?=
In-Reply-To: <200402242311.i1ONBgc20493@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <000801c3fb35$45743cf0$0f0110ac@DD3TNY01>

This is a conference I helped develop.

--Davin C. Enigl, MEAS Microbiologist

*     *     *
NANOTECHNOLOGY FOR DRUG DELIVERY April 21- 22, 2004 ? Park Hyatt ?
Philadelphia, PA
Educational Services Division
Rose Tree Corporate Center
1400 North Providence Road, Suite 2000 ? Media, PA 19063-2043
Telephone: (610) 565-9400 ? Fax: (610) 565-4584 ? Website:
www.barnettinternational.com

P re s e n t e d b y N o t e d I n d u s t r y I n n ov a t o rs f ro m
:
Inex Pharmaceuticals Corporation
Baxter Healthcare Corporation
University of Wisconsin School of Pharmacy
NanoSystems/Elan Drug Delivery Inc.
Novartis Institute for BioMedical Research
Northern Lipids, Inc.
National Center for Dendrimer-Based Technology
Dow Chemical Company
Intradigm Corp
FDA/CDER
University of Colorado at Boulder
Central Michigan University
Dendritic Nanotechnologies, Inc.
Pfizer Global R & D
Regulatory Session with FDA?s
Dr. Ajaz S. Hussain
Deputy Director, Office of Pharmaceutical Science,
FDA/CDER
NANOTECHNOLOGY
for Drug Delivery
NANOTECHNOLOGY for Drug Delivery
? Listen to Experts Explain Nano-Particle Manufacture
? Hear Multiple Application Studies of Nanotechnology
? Understand How to Improve the Chances of Clinical Success and
Commercialization of Poorly Soluble NCEs and APIs
? Hear a Case Study of a Self-Assembled, Targeted Nanoparticle for Small
Interfering RNA (siRNA)
? Hear Practical Nanotechnology Solutions to Solubility, Stability,
Particle Sizing
and Gene Delivery
? Investigate Neovasculature Targeted Delivery of Anti-Angiogenic
Therapeutics
? Understand the Nanotechnology Science of Dendrimers and How They Can
Be
Developed into Pharmaceutical Products
Formulation ? Characterization ? Toxicology
Compliance ? Applications
Formulation ? Characterization ? Toxicology
Compliance ? Applications
Attend All Three ROUND TABLE DISCUSSION SESSIONS
and Interact with Our Distinguished Industry and Regulatory Experts
Media and company sponsors:
April 21-22, 2004 ? Park Hyatt ? Philadelphia, PA
*     *     *



From enigl at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 25 00:41:33 2004
From: enigl at earthlink.net (Davin Enigl)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 16:41:33 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] NANOTECHNOLOGY CONFERENCE - For Drug delivery,
	Philadelphia, April 2004.
In-Reply-To: <200402242311.i1ONBgc20493@tick.javien.com>
Message-ID: <000901c3fb38$1e6ff560$0f0110ac@DD3TNY01>


Dear All,

I should have included this link:

http://home.earthlink.net/~enigl/Nano PDF.pdf.

This link is a multi-page description of all talks to be given at the
conference.

--Davin

--Davin C. Enigl, MEAS
Microbiologist
http://home.earthlink.net/~enigl





From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Wed Feb 25 01:50:04 2004
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 17:50:04 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] 14 Superfoods for long life?
Message-ID: <403BFF4C.F8F28F15@Genius.UCSD.edu>

BillK wrote:
>SuperFoods Rx : Fourteen Foods That Will Change Your Life
>by Steven G. Pratt, Kathy Matthews

	Thanks for the info.  I know that Walford lists a table
	of the 100 best foods in one of his books (120 Year Diet?),
	and I think it includes most or all of these 14.  Dr. Sears
	has a similar list in his Zone Diet books, but his emphasis
	is on lean proteins, low-glycemic fruits/vegetables, & quality
	sources of mono-unsaturated fats and omega-3 fatty acids.

Re:
>Blueberries: The best food on the planet to preserve a young brain as
>we mature.

	I've heard elsewhere good things about these berries.
	Ditto bilberrys, and possibly acerolas.

>Broccoli: The best food on the planet to prevent cancer.

	I believe I've heard Life Extension Foundation confirm this.

>Oats: A sure-fire way to lower your cholesterol.

	These also have GLA, I believe, in high concentration.
	Good to have once a week or so.

>Wild salmon: A guaranteed way to lower your risk for cardiac-related death.

	Dr. Perricone recommends eating this fish every day.
	Dr. Sears suggests taking fish oil with meals not containing
	oily fish (e.g., salmon, sardines, mackerel).

>Soy: The only complete vegetarian source of protein.

	I've read that taking whole soy products is good, but that
	processed soy products, incomplete (e.g., tofu), have some
	undesirable effects.

>Spinach: The best food on the planet to prevent cataracts

	One caveat I've heard is that spinach has rather high
	oxalic acid, and this causes some undesirable effects
	(e.g., interferes with absorption of some nutrients).

>Tea -- green or black: The easiest and cheapest no-calorie way to
>avoid heart disease and cancer.

	Dr. Perricone is big on these teas, and is anti-coffee.
	It's possible that Yerbe Mate is also good in this regard,
	as well as African red bush & honey bush teas.

>Tomatoes: One of the easiest ways for men to avoid prostate cancer is
>the consumption of tomatoes and tomato-based products.

	I've heard this in many places.  Some people, unfortunately,
	have adverse reactions to solanaceous fruits/vegetables.

>Walnuts: Consuming walnuts is an easy, tasty way to lower your risk of
>cardiovascular disease.
>Yogurt: A tasty, easy way to boost your immune system.

	These are good, unless you have a tendency towards Migraine
	or are lactose-intolerant.  Migraine patients are advised
	to avoid nuts, ripened cheeses, and to reduce/avoid yogurt,
	fermented products, etc.

>Anybody else heard about this diet change?

	This particular one is new to me, but I've seen similar
	advice from other nutritionists/dieticians.  In general,
	such foods are great, but as noted, individuals might have
	special intolerances with some of these foods.  Perhaps
	adequate substitutes are listed in the book for all of
	them.

	Thanks again, Johnius


From robwilkes at satx.rr.com  Wed Feb 25 04:07:21 2004
From: robwilkes at satx.rr.com (Rob Wilkes)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:07:21 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Time Travel
Message-ID: <01C3FB22.93F3E3C0.robwilkes@satx.rr.com>

Good point Acy.  In the scenario that I described if the past information 
were "deconvolved" from present information then there would be no need to 
go into the past at all.  For instance, in astronomy, electromagnetic 
information propagates from some event in the past and is "read" by 
telescopes in the present pretty much intact.  In paleontology, fossil 
remains from the past are examined and information is extracted.  In 
forensics, DNA is recovered and analyzed to retrieve genetic information. 
 If there were a technology that could backtrack the "entropic" disassembly 
of human remains up to the time of death then the information could be 
captured.  Is there some law of physics that precludes back-tracking 
entropy?

Rob


Acy James Stapp said:
You cannot make a measurement without interfering with the
system.  Not only does the measurement interfere with the
system, but your scenario seems to violate causality because
the information needed to perform the scan must be sent back
in time.

Acy

[ -----Original Message-----
[ From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[ [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of
[ Rob Wilkes
[ Sent: Saturday, 21 February, 2004 21:05
[ To: 'extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org'
[ Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Time Travel
[
[
[ What do you think about the following scenario: At some point
[ in the future
[ a time travel (of sorts) is developed where information from
[ the past can
[ be retrieved in complete detail (e.g. molecular detail).  If
[ a decison was
[ made to retrieve a person from the past, and the technology
[ to construct a
[ person from that information existed then a person could be
[ brought to the
[ future by reassembling them from thier past information
[ "signature."  Sort
[ of like Star Trek transporter technology "beaming" a person
[ from the past
[ to the future.  If there was the capacity in the future to
[ assimilate these
[ reassembled folks then as many people could be retireved as desired.
[ Information could be captured at the point of that person's
[ death and a new
[ body could be constructed.  Perhaps only congnitive and
[ memory aspects
[ would be replicated exactly, while the body was replaced with
[ a healthy
[ one.  Does this start to sound like resurrection and
[ afterlife?  So, let's
[ see.  We, the decendents of nth grandmother Bessie decide to
[ "retrieve" her
[ from the past.  She arrives in the future to be greeted by us (her
[ descendents) and other "retrieved" family members.  Sort of
[ the ultimate
[ family reunion.  Note that in this scenario no one interferes
[ with the
[ past, they just "read it", and replicate the desired parts.



From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au  Wed Feb 25 05:41:29 2004
From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 16:41:29 +1100
Subject: [extropy-chat] (extropy-chat] Art: Embryonic Stem Cells - Probs in
	Commercialisating
Message-ID: <00ee01c3fb62$046069a0$f9292dcb@vic.bigpond.net.au>

Following article discusses some commercial considerations impacting
on therapeutic cloning as a "commerically viable" source of cells for
therapy. 

Investor horizons of 3 -5 years exert strong impacts on a number
of technologies, but especially those in which governments are
reluctant to fund the basic research. 

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/8021511.htm

- Brett Paatsch




From spike66 at comcast.net  Wed Feb 25 06:09:31 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 22:09:31 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] website gravestone
In-Reply-To: <001001c3faee$176a9fd0$bcb31b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <000201c3fb65$eee639c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>


When my time on this planet is over, may it be
maaaany years in the future, I plan to get in the
old liquid nitrogen bath with Ted, but suppose I were
one of those who didn't believe in such a thing.

If one were to have a website engraved on one's 
headstone, what is the best way to sign up for and 
prepay some service to ensure that the website will 
not 404 for at least a century hence?  One could
then post one's photos, one's DNA sequence, papers,
hobbies and interests, research, relatives living
and past, one's predictions, investments, favorite
charities, a reference to the extropian archives
where one has deposited one's favorite ideas for
years, etc.  One could even write one's own
urology.  Or whatever it is called.

How?

Business opportunity for some of you web jockies?

spike




 



From patrick at bung.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb 25 06:19:44 2004
From: patrick at bung.demon.co.uk (Patrick M Young)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:19:44 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a
	microchipcommunicatewiththebrain
References: <20040225000835.75079.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <007501c3fb67$5c59ad10$0f01a8c0@home>

Thanks.

I would like to have a look at your thesis.



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a
microchipcommunicatewiththebrain


There are several researchers; I would reccomend you
Google around for the specific application you're
interested in.  But if you want starting points,
http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,61889,00.html
and
http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/030701/Neuron-chip_link_advances_030701.html
and
http://abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_93733.htm
could help.

Also, as it happens, my thesis was mainly a summary of
the research done prior to 1996, and an argument that
this application was possible.  (Not neuron-on-chip
itself, but a neuron-computer interface like what has
been put onto a chip.)  As such, its bibliography
contains a number of pointers to pre-1996 research in
the field.  I could email it to you directly (I'd
rather not spam the list) if this would be of use.

--- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> Excuse my naivet?
>
> What would you say were the key papers in this field
> - since 1996?
>
> A bibliography from those that know would be a
> useful resource (in the faq?)
> for Extropianism (& me).
>
> For the sake of informed debate.
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 9:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown on a
> microchipcommunicatewiththe brain
>
>
> > What Mike said.  My graduate thesis back in '96
> was on
> > this topic, and I've been aware of commercially
> > available chips specifically designed and marketed
> > for computer-neuron communication (i.e., grow or
> > thread neurons through the chip, and wire the chip
> to
> > whatever electronics you want to read from and/or
> > write to the neurons) since at least '99.
> >
> > --- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > This story is nothing new. Neurons have been
> getting
> > > grown on chips for
> > > a number of years now.
> > >
> > > --- Patrick M Young <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > > > My apologies.
> > > >
> > > > I bought the paper & read it.
> > > >
> > > > I got the impression that it extends previous
> > > work, albeit
> > > > incrementally.
> > > >
> > > > However, it also demonstrated potentiation of
> > > synapses by electronics
> > > > is
> > > > possible. Synaptic modulation. Electronics
> that
> > > learn!
> > > >
> > > > I may not be completely au fait with this area
> but
> > > that struck me as
> > > > an
> > > > incredibly significant detail.
> > > >
> > > > I would be proud to have achieved this & be
> > > published.
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > > From: "Adrian Tymes" <wingcat at pacbell.net>
> > > > To: "ExI chat list"
> > > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:41 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Nerve cells grown
> on a
> > > microchip
> > > > communicatewiththe brain
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > --- Patrick M Young
> <patrick at bung.demon.co.uk>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > This is obviously the Toad of Toad Hall
> > > approach to
> > > > > > scientific comment.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your winding us up ... right?
> > > > >
> > > > > No, just grumbling about the potential
> > > deleterous
> > > > > effects of excessive hype, and labelling
> this as
> > > an
> > > > > example of excessive hype.
> > > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > > >
> > > >
> _______________________________________________
> > > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > Mike Lorrey
> > > "Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of
> Evils."
> > >                                        - Gen.
> John
> > > Stark
> > > "Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
> > >                                        - Mike
> Lorrey
> > > Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
> > > Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you
> want.
> > > http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > extropy-chat mailing list
> > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > >
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_______________________________________________
extropy-chat mailing list
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 08:23:28 2004
From: the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com (Tom's name Here)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:23:28 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a
	scientific approach
Message-ID: <BAY2-F163SOm3WsTiaq00000c12@hotmail.com>



>Is the line between "consciousness and unconsciousness" really "clear"?
>How do you know that? Do you mean cessation of electrical activity in
>the brain?

I meant that it is fairly obvious to be awake (people pay attention to 
stimulation) versus asleep (stimulation may enter echoic memory but not 
short term memory).
Also, there is some mechanism that prevents muscular movement commands from 
leaving the brain, thus preventing us from acting out our dreams. 
(Sleepwalking results from its malfunction) One could argue that when this 
mechanism is engaged, the person is asleep. However, it may only be engaged 
when a person dreams. If that is the case, forget I mentioned it.

So there is a difference between asleep and awake. Waking and falling asleep 
are both processes (the former being a very quick one). I erred in saying 
the line between awake and asleep is clear. The *difference* between the two 
states is clear. The line, I would say, is when the anti-sleepwalking 
mechanism kicks in, or when stimuli stop entering the attention. However I 
have a nagging feeling even this two "lines" too are gradient processes with 
no clear ?on? or ?off? states.

If it is biological, if probably doesn?t happen all at once.

><...> or [the soul] could leave slowly, pulling out. If the latter, then 
>that death does not >come immediately would not be evidence against there 
>being a soul.

If the soul leaves the body, it has to be going someplace. I don?t think the 
soul is divisible (its not physical) so it would fade in/out in its 
entirety. If it were fading around in its entirety that would mean it would 
exist (to some extent) in both destinations at once. That would mean that 
people that have started to die have part of their soul in the spirit world 
(or whatever afterlife we're talking about) while they?re still alive. The 
key here would be to define "started to die". Drowning in water starts you 
dying, but many people are revived and don?t talk of feeling like part of 
their soul is missing, or ?lesser? by some extent. Also it seems like 
existing on both planes at once would violate some cosmic law. Which planar 
soul would have the consciousness? If the consciousness were bound to the 
physical-world soul, what would be controlling the afterlife soul?

>Now [the soul] could leave very quickly, perhaps even instantaneously [?] 
>it could >always be that the soul leaves the body after it reaches a point 
>of not return

This is a much more cosmos-friendly assumption. The point at which a person 
cannot return to life could take many places. Of course, in order for one to 
be unable to return to life, they must be dead. Thus we revert back to the 
?death is not a specific, end-all be-all state?.

Some could argue that the soul leaves at the instant nothing can be done 
from preventing death. Were this the case, souls would leave before the 
person died, presenting us with bodies without minds. A coma patient would 
be an example, but it would also mean people would be alive and moving 
around when their souls left, and would continue to move around. Zombies, 
anyone?

Chance exists: I?ve heard before about a man who wanted to commit suicide. 
Whether its true or not is irrelevant. He swallowed a cyanide capsule, put a 
gun to his mouth and hung himself over a cliff above the ocean. At this 
point, his soul would certainly leave,  seeing as he swallowed the pill. The 
story goes he pulled the trigger and activated whatever device he used to 
hang himself. The bullet goes through his head and cuts the rope and he 
plunges down into the cold sea, which causes him to regurgitate the pill, 
and he lives. If he is alive, he needs his soul, so it couldn?t have left. 
If the soul stayed because it knew the person would live after all, it 
indicates the soul can predict the result of chance, which is impossible.

Chance does not exist (Scientific determinism): This is unwieldy since 
sci.det. would say the soul would leave as soon as it entered the body, 
because no matter what happens, the person will die when they die; nothing 
can prevent it. Of course, I don?t know of any scientific determinists that 
believe in the soul J.


>I mean one could imagine the soul sticks around until every last cell is 
>gone.
Don?t some cells remain alive long after clinical death? Hair and 
fingernails come to mind, although I?ve heard their growing is only an 
illusion of dehydration. I don?t know which to believe, they both sound 
feasible.

Would all cells in the body include other life? For example, bacteria that 
help us digest food. I?m sure there are some we cannot live without, thus 
they are part of our life, but they are their own organisms, and thus 
separate from our body. I doubt our soul would hang around on account of a 
protozoa.

If the soul leaves when all cells of the body are dead this would indicate 
the soul is tied, in some aspect, to all cells in the body. So what about 
babies and birth? An egg and a sperm are both body cells, so how would a 
zygote forming affect that? Also, one could argue that since a woman?s egg 
is still alive (albeit in the form of another human) that would contort the 
idea.

>Now, matching this up to MacDougall's findings is another story. I
>would first question his findings.

Especially the nonuniformity of the weights measured. I mean, more evident 
than what we?re discussing is the fact that different people lost different 
amounts of weight. Since he ignored the obvious physical connection between 
weight and mass and elected instead to attribute it to spiritual elements, I 
question his impartiality.


I highly doubt different moralities and ethics produce different weights.

>Also, I would want to know what other evidence is there for a soul.

Personally I don?t believe in them. I just figured arguing this would be a 
good way to worm my way into the group.

>One could also test this by sealing a dying person in a chamber <?> the 
>soul needs to escape too, but we could just take an inventory of all the 
>matter in the chamber before and after death, and after opening it, when, 
>presumably, the soul would escape.

Good point, if it has mass, it should be subject to the laws of physics. If 
it is truly spiritual it would simply disappear from inside the box; it 
would not have to wait to get out. I mean, where is it going to go outside 
the box that it can?t inside? Up into the sky to sit on a cloud? Of course 
any transdimentional travel of 21 grams would surly give off detectable 
signals of some sort. Hell, the change in gravity fields alone would tell us 
more than a boatload of theologians could.

Does anyone remember those shoebox things the Ghostbusters trapped ghosts 
in?
I?m also reminded of a. . .I think a Chinese parable where a person angers a 
witch and the witch traps the person inside a tiny box, along with other 
people suffering the same fate.

>My bet is MacDougall would be proven wrong, but that's only a guess.

I agree wholeheartedly.

- Tom Andrys

(I have a feeling Im about to screw up the posting location of this, but I 
can't really figure out what the subject line would look like for a reply to 
a reply to a reply. Should it have been
re: re: re:[extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a 
scientific approach? I don't want to fsk up and clutter the forum with a 
new, totally unnecessary thread. Also hotmail woulden't let me type out the 
proper subject line)

_________________________________________________________________
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/



From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 08:31:47 2004
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 00:31:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Time Travel
In-Reply-To: <01C3FB22.93F3E3C0.robwilkes@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20040225083147.86955.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>



Rob Wilkes <robwilkes at satx.rr.com> wrote:
If there were a technology that could backtrack the "entropic" disassembly 
of human remains up to the time of death then the information could be 
captured. Is there some law of physics that precludes back-tracking 
entropy?

* Yes it is the second law of thermodynamics. In one sense entropy is randomness and therefore *defined* as the loss or lack of information. For example if you have a gas in thermodynamic equilibrium with its surroundings in a flask lets say, it has a temperature characteristic of its heat content or enthalpy. But on a molecular level, the gas is actually composed of particles that have a wide range of velocities. Heat is defined as the sum total of the kinetic and vibrational energy of the molecules in the gas. In this sense on an individual level, some of the molecules are "hot" and some of the molecules are "cold" but  the gas as a whole however would be "lukewarm". In order to separate the "cold" molecules from the "hot" molecules would require that work from an outside source be done on the system. Thus the hodgepodge of fast and slow molecules would never (defined as a probability so low as to be considered zero) spontaneously separate on their own. This is why refrigerators
 and air conditioners for example need electricity to operate. But in a sense, the reason we need to do work on the system is because we are completely ignorant of the velocities (and therefore kinetic energies) of the individual molecules. Thus this ignorance is an alternate definition of entropy. If we knew the position and speed of every molecule in the flask, we could simply open a tiny hole in the flask whenever a fast moving molecule was heading toward it and block the hole when a slow moving molecule was heading towards it. Thus cooling the gas with a neglible expenditure of energy in violation of the 2nd law. Free airconditioning would be really cool, pun fully intended, but it isn't going to happen. And for this same reason, we can't backtrack entropy in the sense Rob intends. Entropy is in this regard an irreversible process. It may be possible to overcome the entropy and reassemble the person through brute force but that would require both a tremendous amount of
 information AND energy.  

Acy James Stapp said:
You cannot make a measurement without interfering with the
system. Not only does the measurement interfere with the
system, but your scenario seems to violate causality because
the information needed to perform the scan must be sent back
in time. 

* In order to actually travel back in time at the same point in space as the death of the person in order to gather the information would not be possible without faster than light travel. But someone at alpha centauri for example could use a ridiculously powerful multispectral telescope and in theory get all the information needed to reconstruct the person some four years after their death provided they had a lot of energy and computing power at their disposal. This would not violate causality because there is no time travel involved and therefore no causality paradoxes. Moreover any perturbations in the system due to this measurement would be neglible since we are talking about macroscopic system and not a quantum particle. (Not to mention that the person is already dead and you don't get anymore perturbed than that.) General relativity would also allow such feat if for example, through gravitational lensing around the event horizon of a black hole, the light and therefore the
 information from the person before death could be viewed by someone on earth with the aforementioned ubertelescope. This of course would have to wait until such a time that the light would have been able to travel all the way to black hole and back again. Ok... well that's my two cents. :)

   



The Avantguardian 


"He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."

---------------------------------
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From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Wed Feb 25 09:49:45 2004
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 01:49:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a
	scientific approach
In-Reply-To: <BAY2-F163SOm3WsTiaq00000c12@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040225094945.16830.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com>



Tom's name Here <the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com> wrote:


Do you mean cessation of electrical activity in
>the brain?


* Yes, I would define death as brain-death the loss of electrical activity in the brain - when the electroencephalogram or EEG (not the EKG) flatlines. Cells may live on but consciousness has left the body. Sleep and coma arguments are irrelevant here, because there is plenty of brainwave activity in both of these cases.

Also, there is some mechanism that prevents muscular movement commands from 
leaving the brain, thus preventing us from acting out our dreams. 
(Sleepwalking results from its malfunction) One could argue that when this 
mechanism is engaged, the person is asleep. However, it may only be engaged when a person dreams. If that is the case, forget I mentioned it.

*Actually you are right, it normally operates when a person is asleep both in REM and deep sleep. Another malfunction of this mechanism results in sleep paralysis where people wake up and can sense their surroundings, even open their eyes and see but cannot move. It is often accompanied by a panic attack since such a state leaves one cognizant of one's vulnerablility.

So there is a difference between asleep and awake. Waking and falling asleep 
are both processes (the former being a very quick one). I erred in saying 
the line between awake and asleep is clear

*Actually you were right the first time. Wakefulness and the different stages of sleep are characterized by discreet and unmistakable brainwave patterns on an EEG.


That would mean that 
people that have started to die have part of their soul in the spirit world 
(or whatever afterlife we're talking about) while they?re still alive.

*Actually, I think it would useful to confine our analysis to the possible existense of a soul and not to some "after-life" or "spirit world" as even if MacDougal were spot on, his experiment does not address either of these things. There is no reason to assume that the soul (if it exists at all) does not roam the very same universe we do when alive. 

*Actually MacDougal weighed them on a beam balance which has counterweights and not some spring loaded scale. Thus he was measuring actual mass and not weight which would have differed in different gravitational fields. Also if you doubt his impartiality in this regards you would also have to doubt the other scientists/physicians that peer reviewed his manuscript as such peer review is required for acceptance of an article in any medical journal I have ever heard of. Three different anonymous peers is the norm.


I highly doubt different moralities and ethics produce different weights.
* Actually I do too. I think it would be more likely that the amount of life experience would have more to do with it- more memories = more soul. 

>One could also test this by sealing a dying person in a chamber <?> the 
>soul needs to escape too, but we could just take an inventory of all the 
>matter in the chamber before and after death, and after opening it, when, 
>presumably, the soul would escape.

*Unless the soul were composed of darkmatter, neutrinos, WIMPs, gamma rays or other exotic forms of matter/energy. Then it would be able to get through the chamber. Of course this is not a criticism of the experiment itself, just the assumption of having to open the chamber to measure the mass loss.  

>My bet is MacDougall would be proven wrong, but that's only a guess.

*I would bet against it too but I think the experiment should be done anyways. Reproducibility of experiments and not belief is the hallmark of scientific progress or at least it ought to be. Besides, it doesn't seem like it would be terribly expensive. It could be done in some state with a lethal injection or gas chamber death penalty for example. I would not go with states that used "old sparky" as all the heat is bound to vaporize too much matter although in a sealed chamber such a thing might be so important. Maybe someone could get a grant from a Christian university or even a church to perform the experiment. Maybe in Texas since they have a lot of Christians AND executions.  Natasha? Max? *eg*

 



The Avantguardian 


"He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."

---------------------------------
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From scerir at libero.it  Wed Feb 25 09:57:56 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:57:56 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: ascientific
	approach
References: <BAY2-F21xfE9oh46Yiu00000e9f@hotmail.com>
	<013b01c3faed$5ad1d500$47cd5cd1@neptune>
Message-ID: <001d01c3fb85$d8a1a440$13b31b97@administxl09yj>

Dan wrote:
> Is the line between "consciousness 
> and unconsciousness" really "clear"?

Not to me. But there is an interesting
paper by Brandt, among the proceedings
of the 'Wigner Centennial Conference'.

http://quantum.ttk.pte.hu/~wigner/proceedings/
then 'List of contents', then the pdf: 
'Deconstructing Wigner's Density 
Matrix concerning the Mind-Body Question' 
by H. E. Brandt


From amara at amara.com  Wed Feb 25 13:02:45 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:02:45 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Interactive star charts and the sky above Rosetta
Message-ID: <p05100300bc6154c33a55@[150.146.134.133]>

Natasha,

>Amara:
>>and here is the sky above where I am:
>>http://www.weatherunderground.com/sky/ShowSky.asp?TheLat=41.79999924&TheLon=12.55000019&TimeZoneName=Europe/Rome

>Ringraziarlo mi amichi!

Prego! (da me)

>Il bel cielo di notte.

... con un piede sulla terra:
http://www.ataonweb.it/main.php?folder=7

(there, I will take my astro100 students next month)


Amara

-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"Somewhere something incredible is waiting to be known."
    -- Isaac Asimov


From the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 13:32:18 2004
From: the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com (Tom's name Here)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:32:18 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a
	scientific approach
Message-ID: <BAY2-F149bwaV7VoAxR000013ec@hotmail.com>

>Yes, I would define death as brain death the loss of electrical activity in 
>the brain - when the electroencephalogram or EEG (not the EKG) flatlines.

A flatline of all electrical activity? The pons could be still sending out 
instructions while all brain activity relevant to mind, i.e. stuff in the 
cerebral cortex, is gone.

>Another malfunction of this mechanism results in sleep paralysis where 
>people wake up and can sense their surroundings, even open their eyes and 
>see but cannot move.

Yes, a friend of mine suffered this very ailment and asked me about it not 
but five days ago. I find it curious the eyes are still permitted to move 
while the rest of the body is not. Of course the eyes are also the only 
thing to move during REM sleep. Why? Because nothing we could possibly do 
with our ocular muscles could hurt us? No amount of toe-wiggling could hurt 
us either, but we cannot move our toes. . .

>Actually, I think it would useful to confine our analysis to the possible 
>existence of a soul.

I don?t know of any evidence suggesting souls exist. All forms, functions 
and components of a mind have been pretty well diagnosed as being of 
biological or psychological origin. I see no reason for a soul to exist, or 
for us to suspect it of existing. As it happens I got into a separate 
discussion this night, and to sum up a three-hour conversation; ?the 
possibility of existence is not a means to exist.?

>There is no reason to assume that the soul (if it exists at all) does not 
>roam the very same universe we do when alive.

Could what we call ?mind? be a manifestation in this universe of a soul? 
Really, what is the difference between a mind and a soul, if we are 
disregarding afterlife?

>>I highly doubt different moralities and ethics produce different weights.
>* Actually I do too. I think it would be more likely that the amount of 
>life experience would have more to do with it- more memories = more soul.

Well memories and experiences are stored for the mind as new paths between 
neurons, correct? So we could hypothesize: more life experiences= more 
interneurons= more mass lost. So the people the lost the most weight would 
have more interneurons than the others; something easily determined.

>*Unless the soul were composed of <?> neutrinos, WIMPs,

My problem with weakly interacting particles forming the soul is: if the 
particles interact so weakly with normal matter, wouldn?t they interact even 
more weakly with themselves? Would they be stable enough to hold a pattern?

>gamma rays or other exotic forms of matter/energy
At the end of 2001: A Space Odyssey, this was Arthur C. Clarke?s take on it. 
Patterns of energy zinging around space. This would mean there would be 
detectable signals zipping around in space. Every animal that has had a 
brain and died would have a soul in space, so detecting one shouldn?t be 
hard (in orbit), unless the signals are going away from earth.

However I do understand what you mean about a pattern existing without a 
substrate. Russell Evermore?s idea about the Abba CD is perplexing, but then 
I realize that the pattern always exists. If the all the CDs are destroyed, 
it will still exist in memory. If all the sheet music is burned and all 
memory of it wiped, the pattern no longer exists in any form. The only way 
the pattern exists is the same way any other song ever written by anyone 
else, or any song yet to be written. That specific collection of beats, 
vocals and instrumental notes exists, but so does that same collection of 
beats, vocals and instrumental notes, with only one different note, or five 
different notes, or a hundred. What I mean is it exists as a combination, 
but any combination is just as existent as the Abba song is. It exists as a 
possibility.

Simply because we have a pattern of brain activity that can be recorded at 
the time we die doesn?t mean it will be carried off, or leave of its own 
accord.

>*I would bet against it too but I think the experiment should be done 
>anyways.

I take back what I said earlier. I think that if someone wonders and is not 
swayed by others? testimony, they deserve to do whatever is necessary 
(within reason) to satisfy that lack of knowledge. However I agree with the 
others, in this case, the burden of proof, and responsibility for the 
experiment, would fall not on the scientific community but on the proponents 
of the idea of a soul.

>Besides, it doesn't seem like it would be terribly expensive. It could be 
>done in some state with a lethal injection or gas chamber death penalty for 
>example.

Also detectors could be set up to measure increases in parts of the 
electromagnetic spectrum. Kind like the tools those ?ghost hunters? use on 
those TLC type programs. (I?m not saying they?re true, but the tools might 
serve our purposes) Even if we couldn?t put up detectors for WIMPs or 
neutrinos, simply objectively eliminating other possibilities would be worth 
it.

>Maybe someone could get a grant from a Christian university or even a 
>church to perform the experiment.

I kind of doubt it. While individual members within the church might want to 
see it happen, the church would not. Why would they take the chance, if it 
could go against them? I do believe you could find support for the 
experiment among the general populace, though. The hard part, I think, would 
be finding someone willing to die under the conditions proposed.

_________________________________________________________________
Get fast, reliable access with MSN 9 Dial-up. Click here for Special Offer! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/



From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Wed Feb 25 14:13:39 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 06:13:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: hairy mice
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402250554200.13275-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Ok, lets see -- how can I word this message so it
gets past the Bayesian email filters?

Scientists from USC have created mice with more
hair follicles and therefore more fur by increasing
the expression of the noggin-is gene.  There are several
interesting side effects.  One of them appears to
be that the body accessories that are necessary
for reproduction have an enhanced size as well.

So for those women who believe "size does matter" as
a recent sitcom put it -- don't look at the length
of the fingers -- instead get the guy to take off
his shirt and check out how furry the fellow is.
And for the men, a small amount of facial hair on
your significant other may not be such a bad trait...

URL:
Researchers Produce A Hairier Mouse; Transgenic
Mouse Shows Other Intriguing Physiological Changes
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/02/040224104308.htm

Robert




From neptune at superlink.net  Wed Feb 25 14:37:29 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:37:29 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: hairy mice
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402250554200.13275-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <003001c3fbac$e66f33e0$6ecd5cd1@neptune>

On Wednesday, February 25, 2004 9:13 AM Robert J. Bradbury
bradbury at aeiveos.com wrote:
> So for those women who believe "size does matter" as
> a recent sitcom put it -- don't look at the length
> of the fingers -- instead get the guy to take off
> his shirt and check out how furry the fellow is.
> And for the men, a small amount of facial hair on
> your significant other may not be such a bad trait...

Ah, but people can remove hair.  So it's not a good indicator,
especially these days when it is fashionable for men to remove body
hair.  (This is assuming it's ever a good indicator.  My own anecdotal
accounts would lead me to believe it's not.:)

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From neptune at superlink.net  Wed Feb 25 15:01:22 2004
From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:01:22 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: ascientific
	approach
References: <BAY2-F163SOm3WsTiaq00000c12@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003901c3fbb0$3c0ce600$6ecd5cd1@neptune>

On Wednesday, February 25, 2004 3:23 AM Tom's name Here
the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com wrote:
> So there is a difference between asleep and
> awake. Waking and falling asleep are both
> processes (the former being a very quick
> one). I erred in saying the line between
> awake and asleep is clear.

That's the admission I was looking for.:)

> The *difference* between the two
> states is clear.

You could say that about death, so this chucks out your application of
this division to dying as a means of refuting the belief in a soul that
leaves the body on death.

> The line, I would say, is when the anti-sleepwalking
> mechanism kicks in, or when stimuli
> stop entering the attention. However I have
> a nagging feeling even this two "lines" too
> are gradient processes with no clear "on"
> or "off" states.
>
> If it is biological, if probably doesn't happen
> all at once.

See above.  This negates you using this as an argument to support your
contention about souls leaving the body on death.

>><...> or [the soul] could leave slowly, pulling
>> out. If the latter, then that death does not >
>> come immediately would not be evidence
>> against there being a soul.
>
> If the soul leaves the body, it has to be going
> someplace. I don't think the soul is divisible
> (its not physical) so it would fade in/out in its
> entirety.

That would be a point to be empirically investigated.  Those who believe
in the soul tend to talk about it as a unitary entity, but that doesn't
mean that a) they're right or b) that even if it were unitary it might
not slip in an out slowly.  On the latter, imagine you have a cat that
moves on and off your lap.  Were you to sit, say, on a scale during this
process, you might notice that when the cat moves between these two
states -- being on your lap vs. being, say, on the floor -- that the
mass registered by the chair does not change discontinuously from being
at your mass alone to being the mass of you and the cat.  The cat might,
e.g., put two paws on you and that would increase the mass, then pull
more of its body on it to, further increasing the mass, then finally
come to rest on your lap, perhaps causing the scale to oscillate a
little before settling down to your combined masses.  Would you then
think the cat was not a unified being?

You can't just make assumptions to prove your case, then say, "Aha, it
doesn't fit my assumptions, therefore, I'm right!  I'm right!":)

> If it were fading around in its entirety that would
> mean it would exist (to some extent) in both
> destinations at once. That would mean that
> people that have started to die have part of
> their soul in the spirit world (or whatever
> afterlife we're talking about) while they're still
> alive. The key here would be to define "started
> to die". Drowning in water starts you dying, but
> many people are revived and don't talk of
> feeling like part of their soul is missing, or
> "lesser" by some extent. Also it seems like
> existing on both planes at once would violate
> some cosmic law. Which planar soul would
> have the consciousness? If the consciousness
> were bound to the physical-world soul, what
> would be controlling the afterlife soul?

Again, you're tying more assumptions to the idea to refute it.  The
basic hypotheses were:

1.  The soul has mass.
2.  The soul leaves the body on death.

Where it goes after death is of no importance to proving hypothesis 2.
(1 and 2 are used to prove the general notion that there is a soul to
begin with.:)  It could just leave the body, just as, say, gases leave
the body.  (Just because the gases take time to leave the body on death
does not mean they don't exist.:)  Adding further hypotheses or
assumptions and then refuting them does not refute the original
hypotheses.

Let me use an analogy.  Let's say that in order to refute Newton's Three
Laws of Motion, I add in that all mass must wear blue tee shirts in
order to move.  I point out that the a particular mass being used in an
experiment to confirm or refute Newton's law is not covered with a blue
tee shirt, so, ergo, Newton's Laws are illogical and must be rejected.
You would, I trust, say that my added assumption is arbitrary and has
nothing to do with Newton's Laws.

>> Now [the soul] could leave very quickly,
>> perhaps even instantaneously [.] it
>> could always be that the soul leaves the
>> body after it reaches a point of not return
>
> This is a much more cosmos-friendly
> assumption. The point at which a person
> cannot return to life could take many places.
> Of course, in order for one to be unable to
> return to life, they must be dead. Thus we
> revert back to the "death is not a specific,
> end-all be-all state".

Whoa!  You're making it sound like I denied that assumption.  I was
merely stating, for the record, that your refutation of the soul
hypothesis (let's call it that for shorthand) was not actually sound.
You were merely stacking the deck in favor of your view as opposed to
trying to figure out what is the correct view.

> Some could argue that the soul leaves at the
> instant nothing can be done from preventing
> death. Were this the case, souls would leave
> before the person died, presenting us with
> bodies without minds. A coma patient would
> be an example, but it would also mean people
> would be alive and moving around when their
> souls left, and would continue to move around.
> Zombies, anyone?

This is all speculation on how someone might argue -- not on what is the
case.  Were there souls, maybe they could move back into the body.
Maybe they only leave once there's a truly irrecoverable death.  Of
course, the simplest explanation for the data I see -- since the
McDougall claims have not be substantiated -- is that there are no
souls.

> Chance exists: I've heard before about
> a man who wanted to commit suicide.
> Whether its true or not is irrelevant. He
> swallowed a cyanide capsule, put a
> gun to his mouth and hung himself over
> a cliff above the ocean. At this point, his
> soul would certainly leave,  seeing as
> he swallowed the pill. The story goes he
> pulled the trigger and activated whatever
> device he used to hang himself. The
> bullet goes through his head and cuts
> the rope and he plunges down into the
> cold sea, which causes him to regurgitate
> the pill, and he lives. If he is alive, he
> needs his soul, so it couldn't have left.
> If the soul stayed because it knew the
> person would live after all, it indicates
> the soul can predict the result of chance,
> which is impossible.

What?  What has this got to do with anything?  Are you drunk or high?:)

If the soul leaves via a physical process -- if that statement makes
sense:) -- then what does its choice or predictive abilities have to do
with it?  The thing to do to find evidence would be to explore that
process by which it leaves -- not make up assumptions or ridiculous
scenarios merely to reinforce your prejudices.

> Chance does not exist (Scientific determinism):
> This is unwieldy since sci.det. would say the
> soul would leave as soon as it entered the
> body, because no matter what happens,
> the person will die when they die; nothing
> can prevent it. Of course, I don't know of
> any scientific determinists that believe in
> the soul J.

To find out what is the case, you would do better not to look for people
who believed in it, but see if the ideas are logically inconsistent.  I
can see two possible views for people who believe in souls vis-a-vis
determinism:

s1.  Determinism is true AND there are souls.
s2.  Determinism is NOT true AND there are souls.

Is that hard to imagine?  Neither determinism or its denial refutes the
soul hypothesis.

>> I mean one could imagine the soul sticks
>> around until every last cell is gone.
>
> Don't some cells remain alive long after
> clinical death? Hair and fingernails come
> to mind, although I've heard their growing
> is only an illusion of dehydration. I don't
> know which to believe, they both sound
> feasible.

I don't know.  I'm only trying to find out what is the case here as well
as point out faulty arguments -- not dismiss the idea because I don't
happen to believe it myself.

This applies to much of your other points.  To not believe in souls is
better based on there being no unambiguous evidence for their
existence -- as opposed to pointing to all manner of silly notions that
you or others might associate with souls.  I mean I could say that some
people who believe in life on other planets also believe that angels
visit them and that chickens actually speak a form of bastardized Latin.
Does that mean that there's no life on other planets?:)

Later!

Dan
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorks.html



From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 15:31:03 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:31:03 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: ascientific
	approach
References: <20040225094945.16830.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE32nvzbwGZk100014e7b@hotmail.com>


  ". Maybe someone could ge! t a grant from a Christian university or even a church to perform the experiment. "

  This won' t happen. It is too likely to yield results that counter their teachings. 
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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 15:44:51 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:44:51 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] website gravestone
References: <000201c3fb65$eee639c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE60tGKpJ1fSU0001490f@hotmail.com>

I came up with this idea in 1996 while I was working at a funeral home (it
lasted about 3 months). The prototype that Iused as an example was made from
laptop parts embedded into a headstone. I actually went through the process
of having the stone cut to fit my parts and put it together! The prototype
had to have power supplied, but I was working on a way to recahrge the
battery with solar cells.
A brass engraved plate was hinged to cover the screen and was flipped into
the up position to reveal the screen. (The plan was for a touch screen but I
didn;t have the money to get that kind of technology) It was all read from a
CDROM and it included the ability to do things such as present new
information based on the date. In this way, a father could give new advice
to his 16 year old daughter that he would never give his 6 year old even if
he died when she was 5.

There was a lot more to this, but I was laughed out of every funeral home in
the city and some in other cities. I was told that this business was a "very
conservative" and "serious" business and that my ideas were just too far out
for that. Meanwhile, Elvis fans were being buried in Cadillac shaped coffins
that promised to play Elvis music for eternity!

Finally, after several attempts, I threw my hands up in the air. 3 years
later, I heard a Japanese company was doing something similar. Now I can;t
find anything about it. Either way, I',m too pissed off to care.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:09 AM
Subject: [extropy-chat] website gravestone


>
> When my time on this planet is over, may it be
> maaaany years in the future, I plan to get in the
> old liquid nitrogen bath with Ted, but suppose I were
> one of those who didn't believe in such a thing.
>
> If one were to have a website engraved on one's
> headstone, what is the best way to sign up for and
> prepay some service to ensure that the website will
> not 404 for at least a century hence?  One could
> then post one's photos, one's DNA sequence, papers,
> hobbies and interests, research, relatives living
> and past, one's predictions, investments, favorite
> charities, a reference to the extropian archives
> where one has deposited one's favorite ideas for
> years, etc.  One could even write one's own
> urology.  Or whatever it is called.
>
> How?
>
> Business opportunity for some of you web jockies?
>
> spike
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 25 15:53:54 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:53:54 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] (extropy-chat] Art: Embryonic Stem Cells - Probs
	inCommercialisating
Message-ID: <410-220042325155354777@M2W038.mail2web.com>


From: Brett Paatsch 

>Following article discusses some commercial considerations impacting
>on therapeutic cloning as a "commerically viable" source of cells for
>therapy. 

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/national/8021511.htm

Great article, but I'm not sure where the art is, other than the art of
commercialization, but then the article didn't get into that.

:-)

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From megao at sasktel.net  Wed Feb 25 17:25:04 2004
From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:25:04 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] website gravestone a "post-living" will.
References: <000201c3fb65$eee639c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<LAW10-OE60tGKpJ1fSU0001490f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <403CDA6F.A51B72C4@sasktel.net>

If the body is stored mummified , some tissues are cryobanked and the head is
crypreserved, maybe the Website gravestone could have an interactive feature
which includes updated future time or event based  "living will" instructions.
The program could act as your "legal gaurdian" during stasis.  A secure means
for the program to
ensure the date was not tampered with is required.

Kevin Freels wrote:

> I came up with this idea in 1996 while I was working at a funeral home (it
> lasted about 3 months). The prototype that Iused as an example was made from
> laptop parts embedded into a headstone. I actually went through the process
> of having the stone cut to fit my parts and put it together! The prototype
> had to have power supplied, but I was working on a way to recahrge the
> battery with solar cells.
> A brass engraved plate was hinged to cover the screen and was flipped into
> the up position to reveal the screen. (The plan was for a touch screen but I
> didn;t have the money to get that kind of technology) It was all read from a
> CDROM and it included the ability to do things such as present new
> information based on the date. In this way, a father could give new advice
> to his 16 year old daughter that he would never give his 6 year old even if
> he died when she was 5.
>
> There was a lot more to this, but I was laughed out of every funeral home in
> the city and some in other cities. I was told that this business was a "very
> conservative" and "serious" business and that my ideas were just too far out
> for that. Meanwhile, Elvis fans were being buried in Cadillac shaped coffins
> that promised to play Elvis music for eternity!
>
> Finally, after several attempts, I threw my hands up in the air. 3 years
> later, I heard a Japanese company was doing something similar. Now I can;t
> find anything about it. Either way, I',m too pissed off to care.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Spike" <spike66 at comcast.net>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 12:09 AM
> Subject: [extropy-chat] website gravestone
>
> >
> > When my time on this planet is over, may it be
> > maaaany years in the future, I plan to get in the
> > old liquid nitrogen bath with Ted, but suppose I were
> > one of those who didn't believe in such a thing.
> >
> > If one were to have a website engraved on one's
> > headstone, what is the best way to sign up for and
> > prepay some service to ensure that the website will
> > not 404 for at least a century hence?  One could
> > then post one's photos, one's DNA sequence, papers,
> > hobbies and interests, research, relatives living
> > and past, one's predictions, investments, favorite
> > charities, a reference to the extropian archives
> > where one has deposited one's favorite ideas for
> > years, etc.  One could even write one's own
> > urology.  Or whatever it is called.
> >
> > How?
> >
> > Business opportunity for some of you web jockies?
> >
> > spike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > extropy-chat mailing list
> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua  Wed Feb 25 17:16:13 2004
From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 20:16:13 +0300
Subject: [extropy-chat] Same ssexx marriage, patents and the Constitution 
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040225200451.00a928d0@pop.cris.net>

Hi,

In the recent PATNEWS Greg Aharonian argues that the answer to the same sex 
marriage controversy may be found in patents. 

See the text of the newsletter on 
http://home.cris.net/~anyservice/patnews022204.htm

Best!  

Gennady
Simferopol Crimea Ukraine






From megao at sasktel.net  Wed Feb 25 19:30:06 2004
From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:30:06 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Bernstein Diet.. applied epigenetics?
Message-ID: <403CF7BE.88A95908@sasktel.net>

Just saw an item on the "Benstein Diet"
Consists of low fat, low carbs, low cal (about 900 cal) plus vitamin
shots.
Cost 245 to join, 500/month for ongoing costs.

But on the segment they showed the syringe and guess what it looks like
vitamin B-12.

We know of the power of common epigenetic gene switching  facilitating
compounds including  B-12.

So perhaps the use of high B-12  (1-2000mcg/dose by my estimation on the
TV item) while dieting is meant to reset the DNA switches to adapt to
the diet and reset the ongoing switch-set once the diet reaches its
goal?

So, a booklet and some kind of support  plus regular B-12 shots makes
for  a pretty good return on investment.



From support at imminst.org  Wed Feb 25 20:49:16 2004
From: support at imminst.org (support at imminst.org)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 14:49:16 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ALCOR - ACTION ALERT
Message-ID: <403d0a4c777ba@imminst.org>

Arizona legislation is being considered that could 
limit Alcor's effectiveness as a cryonics facility. A
hearing has been scheduled for Thursday, Feb 26 at 
9:00 am concerning the bill - HB 2637. 

ImmInst members who have received email replies 
from any of the twelve(12) House Health Committee 
members are encouraged to post the email exchange 
to the following forum topic in order to help us gauge
support and opposition to the bill. 

http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=153&t=3162

If you are unable to post to the forum, please reply to
this email: support at imminst.org

ImmInst is hosting nightly Alcor brainstorming chats.  
For more information, check: http://www.imminst.org

Regards,
ImmInst.org Team



To be removed from all of our mailing lists, click here:
http://www.imminst.org/archive/mailinglists/mailinglists.php?p=mlist&rem=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb 25 21:48:35 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:48:35 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] 14 Superfoods for long life?
Message-ID: <403D1833.9040905@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Tue Feb 24, 2004 06:50 pm Johnius wrote:
> In general, such foods are great, but as noted, individuals might have
> special intolerances with some of these foods. Perhaps
> adequate substitutes are listed in the book for all of them.

Since I posted the original list, I've done some more searching and
found more data plus some examples of the alternatives quoted from the book.

As you mentioned, some individuals are lactose intolerant, just as some
are allergic to peanuts, some are allergic to tomatoes and apparently
some people are allergic to soy.
But this list is not one of those strict diets that must be followed
like a religion. You will get the benefits of eating these foods even if
you manage to squeeze some rubbish in as well.  ;)


? Beans ?
Also try: green beans, sugar snap peas, green peas, chickpeas
What they've got: low-fat protein, fiber, B vitamins, iron, folate,
potassium, magnesium

? Blueberries ?
Also try: cranberries, raspberries, strawberries, cherries, currants,
purple grapes
What they've got: fiber, folate, vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium,
iron, riboflavin, niacin, phytoestrogen, few calories.

? Broccoli ?
Also try: Brussels sprouts, cabbage (red and green), cauliflower, bok
choy, kale
What it's got: folate, fiber, calcium, vitamins C and K, beta-carotene

? Oats ?
Also try: wheat germ, brown rice, barley, wheat, buckwheat, rye, millet,
quinoa
What they've got: high fiber, few calories, protein, magnesium,
potassium, zinc, copper, selenium, thiamine

? Oranges ?
Also try: lemons, grapefruit, kumquats, tangerines, limes
What they've got: vitamin C, fiber, folate, potassium, pectin

? Pumpkin ?
Also try: carrots, butternut squash, sweet potatoes, orange bell peppers
What it's got: alpha-carotene, beta-carotene, high fiber, few calories,
vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium

? Wild Salmon -
Also try: Alaskan halibut, canned albacore tuna, sardine, herring,
trout, sea bass, clams
What it's got: omega-3 fatty acids, vitamins B and D, selenium,
potassium, protein

? Soy ?
Also try: tofu, soymilk, soy nuts, edamame, miso
What it's got: omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin E, potassium, folate,
magnesium, selenium

? Spinach ?
Also try: other dark leafy greens, kale, collards, Swiss chard, bok
choy, romaine lettuce, mustard and turnip greens or orange bell peppers.
What it's got: beta-carotene, omega-3 fatty acids, vitamins C and E,
thiamine, iron, calcium, magnesium, zinc

? Tea ? Green or black:
What it's got: flavonoids, fluoride, no calories

? Tomatoes ?
Lycopene, the red pigment in tomatoes, is also found in pink
grapefruit, watermelon, persimmons and some types of papaya.
What they've got: lycopene, few calories, alpha- and beta-carotene,
vitamin C, potassium, chromium, fiber

? Turkey ?
Also try: skinless chicken breast
What it's got: low-fat protein, niacin, vitamins B6 and B12, iron,
selenium, zinc

? Walnuts ?
Also try: almonds, pistachios, sesame seeds, peanuts, pumpkin and
sunflower seeds, macadamia nuts, pecans, hazelnuts, cashews
What they've got: omega-3 fatty acids, vitamins E and B6, magnesium,
protein, fiber, potassium

? Yogurt ?
Also try: kefir
What it's got: live active cultures, calcium, vitamins B2 and B12,
potassium, magnesium, zinc

The book also insists that exercise is necessary for good health.
But simply eating right won't guarantee good health and longevity, he
says. You have to exercise, too. According to the book's "lifestyle
pyramid," the linchpin of good health includes 30 to 60 minutes a day of
aerobic exercise and weight training two to three times a week.


BillK




From riel at surriel.com  Wed Feb 25 22:04:30 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:04:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040218220645.76148.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402251703540.9712@imladris.surriel.com>

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> Actually, the 13th Amendment (the original one, which will soon make a
> legal resurgence) disagrees with you. Turns out acting on behalf of a
> foreign power, receiving gifts or pay of any kind from a foreign power
> by any American is Constitutionally grounds for stripping one's citizenship.

Bad news for the Bush family then, they seem to keep
receiving money by doing business with the Saudis ;)

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From riel at surriel.com  Wed Feb 25 22:11:43 2004
From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:11:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: more news
In-Reply-To: <000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402160829481.19995-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<000a01c3f4c4$27fd87c0$d3a44418@du.shawcable.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.55L.0402251707520.9712@imladris.surriel.com>

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004, Russell Evermore wrote:

> But here's the thing. Why do I keep getting stuck on the notion that
> IE and Outlook Express may simply "appear" more vulnerable because a
> gajillon seething, anti-Microsoft, Gates bashing,
> jealous-of-the-fact-a-geeky-nerd-actually-made-it-big, vandal
> mentality hackers keep relentlessly attacking these products?

The current wave of spam zombie trojans definately isn't
being written by hobbyists.  Lists of IP address / port
number combinations for spam proxies are being SOLD by the
professional criminals creating the software.

The crackers finding security bugs for status seem to hang
out on bugtraq and full-disclosure nowadays, writing up neat
looking reports on how they discovered the bug, how they
told the vendor and often a demo exploit attached.

I wouldn't be surprised if those folks kept track of who
discovered the most security holes ;)

The internet has opened up a whole new way to measure "who's
the best security hole finder" than the 1990's "lets see how
many machines get infected with my virus" ...

Rik
-- 
"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Thu Feb 26 01:48:47 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 17:48:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] FSP: Live from the Free State
Message-ID: <20040226014847.68610.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>

Hey extropes,
Some links mentioning me RE the FSP in this past weeks news:

WBZ
http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?b126625204

The Boston Globe
http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?b126758853

AP via Newsday
http://c.moreover.com/click/here.pl?b126637593

These are the same basic article on the AP Wire in different
publications, all derived from this article: 
http://www.vnews.com/02222004/1599432.htm

Alcor isn't the only group dealing with overbearing state government.
THe town of Killington, VT is looking to secede, and the FSP is right
there, helping them. We've launched a three week newspaper ad campaign:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/new_hampshire/articles/2004/02/05/in_new_england_good_state_borders_make_good_neighbors/

http://www.wkbn.com/Global/story.asp?S=1594318

http://freestateproject.org/about/advertising/index.jsp

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1055135/posts

I attended the Killington Town Selectboard meeting monday night to
discuss the FSP, Killington's plans, and how we can work together to
help Killington secede. The selectboard yesterday made a statement that
it strongly supports our ad campaign on TV and in the newspapers, our
work reflects the greivances and needs of the people of Killington, and
this campaign is receiving news coverage in regional and national radio
and television programs.

We are discussing similar ad campaigns for other issues around the
country. One possibility is New Mexico's proposal to mandate all cars
in state be equipped with full time ignition/breathalyzer interlocks.
Another is the nationwide issue of gay marriage. We have commercial
scripts written, we have a production crew, and we are raising funds on
a per-project basis (members who would like to pledge funds to any of
these efforts should contact me offlist).

Should Alcor wish, we would be prepared to launch a similar ad campaign
in Arizona. These ad campaigns are generally not 'in your face'. They
typically offer a subtly wry commentary on the unfairness and injustice
of the local or state government in the particular issue. They conclude
with "You may think there is a better way. We think you are right."



=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 02:15:22 2004
From: the_spoon_maker at hotmail.com (Tom's name Here)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 02:15:22 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Angel Snot was Near Death Experiences: a
	scientific approach
Message-ID: <BAY2-F66aoojYn5VSSF000082fd@hotmail.com>

Many of the arguments I make are based on assumptions, yes. But to take the 
ideas ?as is? and try and disprove them, I don?t think its possible, so I 
take the ideas and (try to) disprove any/all circumstances the ideas would 
be in. Like chopping down the tree because I cant get to the roots. They are 
still there, but cannot manifest in anything specific, lest the axe of 
reason strike it down. I admit my blade needs a bit of sharpening.

>You can't just make assumptions to prove your case, then say, "Aha, it
>doesn't fit my assumptions, therefore, I'm right! I'm right!":)

If I assume the soul wears a blue t-shirt, and I prove the soul cannot wear 
a blue t-shirt, haven?t I proven the soul does not wear a blue t-shirt? 
Sure, it might wear a red or a green one, but knowing it?s not blue brings 
us one step closer.

>The basic hypotheses were:
>1. The soul has mass.

If the soul has mass, the mass can be measured and manipulated by physical 
means. If the soul is subject to physical laws and forces, in theory we 
should be able to construct a soul in a laboratory.

>2. The soul leaves the body on death.

If the soul leaves upon death, it is possible that the soul enters the body 
upon life. Would a pregnant mother suddenly gain a few grams when her baby 
gained a soul?

Or, the soul could develop gradually as a result of life experiences, as was 
mentioned before. This would indicate newborn infants would have 
significantly less mass lost than a toddler. Or a 250 lb. Shut-in would lose 
less mass than a 150 lb. Photojournalist.

>You were merely stacking the deck in favor of your view as opposed to
>trying to figure out what is the correct view.

I believe there is no such thing as a soul, so I suffer bias. Inherently I 
assume positions that are aligned with what I regard to be true. If I think 
everyone is wearing a blue t-shirt, if I meet a new person on the phone, I 
would assume he is wearing one, too.

>This is all speculation on how someone might argue -- not on what is the
>case.

Yes, but it eliminates their argument from what might be the case.

I think this is a difficult topic to discuss (for me at least) because there 
are very few concrete things. The soul has yet to be defined, so discussing 
it is like painting the view through an opaque window.

_________________________________________________________________
Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed 
Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/



From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Thu Feb 26 03:44:14 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 22:44:14 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] FSP: Live from the Free State
In-Reply-To: <20040226014847.68610.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c3fc1a$ce40d350$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Mike Lorrey wrote,
> Hey extropes,
> Some links mentioning me RE the FSP in this past weeks news:

Excellent work, Mike.  I'm impressed!  You getting things done and getting
noticed.  All of our transhumanist movements could take some tips from you.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From nanogirl at halcyon.com  Thu Feb 26 05:47:45 2004
From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:47:45 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~
References: <BAY2-F66aoojYn5VSSF000082fd@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003701c3fc2c$0f0b1150$b7be1218@Nano>

The Nanogirl News
February 25,2004

Intercellular Telephone Wires. Thin tubes between cells transport organelles but block small molecules. A cell extends a threadlike tube to a neighbor, attaches, and transfers a small organelle from one cell to the other. Such a scenario describes a newly discovered type of cell-to-cell communication [Science, 303, 1007 (2004)]. "The discovery is spectacular," says Owe Orwar, professor of biophysical chemistry at Chalmers University of Technology, G?teborg, Sweden. Orwar has helped develop artificial systems that demonstrate similar transport (C&EN, May 19, 2003, page 14).
(C&E 2/16/04) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/topstory/8207/8207notw1.html

Chelmsford, Mass.-Area Firm to Unveil Cancer-Fighting Nanotechnology. A local company working with UMass Lowell is getting ready for clinical trials on a nanotechnology-based cancer treatment for prostate and breast cancer. "We're getting a little too big for our incubator. We're about to pop out of our shell," said Dr. Samuel Straface, CEO of Triton BioSystems, which collaborated with UMass Lowell to develop the treatment. Representatives from Triton and UMass Lowell, as well as U.S. Rep. Marty Meehan were scheduled to unveil details during a press conference Wednesday at Triton's Turnpike Road headquarters. (Miami Herald 2/18/04) http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7982426.htm

Nano-Origami: Scientists Create Single, Clonable Strand of DNA That Folds into an Octahedron. A group of scientists at The Scripps Research Institute has designed, constructed, and imaged a single strand of DNA that spontaneously folds into a highly rigid, nanoscale octahedron that is several million times smaller than the length of a standard ruler and about the size of several other common biological structures, such as a small virus or a cellular ribosome. (Scripps Research Institute Issue 6 / Feb.23-04) http://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/e_20040223/nano.html

Nerve Cells on a Microchip. Researchers at the University of Calgary have found that nerve cells grown on a microchip can learn and memorize information which can be communicated to the brain. "We discovered that when we used the chip to stimulate the neurons, their synaptic strength was enhanced," said Naweed Syed, a neurobiologist at the University of Calgary's faculty of medicine.  (sophists.org 2/20/04) http://www.sophists.org/article184.html
Also see: http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Science/2004/02/19/353566-cp.html

Glass Beads Reveal Molecular Interactions. Berkeley Lab and UC Berkeley researchers have developed a fast, cheap, and highly sensitive way to detect molecular interactions without using sophisticated equipment. Their technique, which uses thousands of microscopic glass beads coated with a substance that mimics a cell membrane, opens the door for the high throughput evaluation of an ever-growing family of pharmaceuticals that fight diseases by targeting membrane-bound receptors. (Berkeley lab Science Beat 2/17/04) 
http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/sb-PBD-glass-beads.html

Nanotech shows great promise on medical application. The science of nanotechnology is rapidly moving from its early beginnings in electronics, computers and telecommunications into the expanding field of nanomedicine. The emerging nanomedicine has the potential to change medical science dramatically in the 21st century, scientists said at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) in Seattle. (Chinaview 2/18/04)
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-02/18/content_1320625.htm

LG Chem uses nano technology to develop leak-proof plastic. LG Chem Ltd., the nation's largest chemical company, has used nano technology to develop a plastic to make high-performance containers. The company says the innovation is a world's first and it hopes to lead the multi-trillion won container materials market. The plastic, known as hyperier, is extremely leak-resistant and can be used in automotive gasoline tanks and chemical containers. (The Korea Herald 2/20/04)
http://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2004/02/19/200402190028.asp

Tunneling Nanotubes...The researchers, from the University of Heidelberg in Germany and other European institutions, observed what they called tunneling nanotubes among embryonic human kidney cells and normal rat kidney cells. The structures were 50 to 200 nanometers in diameter (at the upper end, about one 100-thousandths of an inch) and up to several cell diameters in length. Time-lapse videos show that the tubes form in several minutes when a slender protrusion from one cell contacts another cell. (The New York Times 2/17/04)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/17/science/17OBSE.html?ex=1077598800&en=d334aa70c46e0d81&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE

Lord Sainsbury Sees Nanotechnology In Action At Seagate. British Science and Innovation Minister, Lord Sainsbury visited the Seagate Technology plant at Springtown in Derry this week as part of a day-long look at the North's micro and nanotechnology sector. (ic Derry 2/20/04)
http://icderry.icnetwork.co.uk/businessnews/business/content_objectid=13968751_method=full_siteid=66002_headline=-Lord-Sainsbury-Sees-Nanotechnology-In-Action-At-Seagate-name_page.html

U.S. and Israeli nanotech researchers set sights on clean water. Israel's nanotechnology program got a significant boost recently, with the first meeting of stakeholders in the Nanotechnology Clean Water Initiative. The Initiative - the result of combined efforts by Dr. Uri Sagman, Prof. Samuel Pohoryles and former prime minister Shimon Peres - has, for the first time, brought together major Israeli university researchers and global industry principals to work on nanotech-based solutions to the water shortage in the Middle East. (Isreal21 2/22/04)
http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Articles%5El629&enZone=Technology&enVersion=0&

(5 pages) If It's Nano, It's Big. Investors Are Building Mountains Out of Tiny Tech...Carbon Nanotechologies Inc., the company building the new furnace, isn't publicly traded, but a few other companies with "nano" in their names are, and their stocks have roared off the launch pad lately. Nanogen Inc.: up 183 percent since the first of December and 503 percent since the beginning of 2003. Altair Nanotechnologies Inc.: up 502 percent since early 2003. Nanometrics Inc.: up 347 percent since early 2003. Recalling the dot-com bubble years, Internet message boards are buzzing with chatter about nanotechnology stocks going UP! UP! UP! For several years, government leaders have referred to nanotechnology as the "next industrial revolution," and predicted that products based on it could be worth $1 trillion in a decade. 
(WashingtonPost 2/22/04)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59607-2004Feb21.html
 
Nanopore Analytical Instrument Developed by UCSC's new Department of Biomolecular Engineering... One project that illustrates several aspects of biomolecular engineering is the nanopore analytical instrument being developed by research scientist Mark Akeson with Deamer, Haussler, and their students. The nanopore instrument is built around a membrane containing a tiny hole just a few nanometers in diameter (a nanometer is one-billionth of a meter). An electrical field drives single molecules such as DNA through the nanopore. As a molecule enters the pore, it produces an electrical signal that provides information about its concentration, identity, and composition. The pore itself is a naturally occurring bacterial toxin made of self-assembling protein molecules. Potential applications of the nanopore device include ultrarapid DNA sequencing. (nanotechwire 2/21/04) http://nanotechwire.com/news.asp?nid=727

Tiny new rulers for the 'ultrasmall'. Scientists can sometimes get away with approximations. What's a few million years when you're calculating the age of the cosmos? But engineers need precision. They cannot reliably make what they cannot measure. And in the world of nanotechnology, where a billionth of a meter can make a huge difference, they've had a tough time. Now they're beginning to get some help. Three recently reported achievements show how researchers finally are mastering the exquisite precision needed when devices are built atom by atom. For example, MIT scientists have come up with a tool to make what they call "the world's most precise rulers - with 'ticks' only a few hundred billionths of a meter apart." It can lay out a grate of lines and spaces across a large semiconductor wafer with unprecedented speed. (csmoniter Feb 2604 issue) http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0226/p16s01-stct.html

Governor lobbies White House for nanotech center in Oregon. Gov. Ted Kulongoski met with a top Bush administration science advisor Tuesday to pitch Oregon as a site for one of the country's 10 new federally mandated nanotechnology research centers. Kulongoski said the purpose of his meeting with Richard Russell of the Office of Science Technology Policy was to establish a critical "point of contact" inside the Bush administration. "The real objective was to sell Oregon," Kulongoski said. (BendBulletin 2/25/04) http://www.bendbulletin.com/news/story.cfm?story_no=12756

Homeland Insecurity: New book relegates nanotechnology threat to science fiction. A recently published book, entitled "Nanotechnology and Homeland Security," claims to be scientific, but has neither source notes nor bibliography. I discussed its two authors with nanotechnologists. Mark A. Ratner (the father) is a very well regarded scientist. But his son Dan, who figures as the first author, ahead of his father, has done his father a disservice - the book represents the worst case of "Political Correctness," is light on science, bloated on arrogance, and concentrates on trivia. 
(World Tribune 2/10/04) http://216.26.163.62/2004/lev2_13.html

New Index to Track Nano Stocks, But Large-Caps Stay Off For Now. Investors interested in tracking nanotechnology finally got what they wanted: a stock index. It comes from Punk, Ziegel & Co., a New York-based investment bank specializing in health-care technology and biotech. The firm has been tracking nanotechnology closely the last two years and it successfully underwrote a 2.3-million-share secondary public offering for Harris & Harris Group Inc., (Nasdaq: TINY, News, Web), a venture firm specializing in micro- and nanotechnology, in 2003. The index includes 15 publicly traded companies active in nanotechnology. (smalltimes 2/24/04)
http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=7471

Nano Patterning. IBM brings closer to reality chips that put themselves together. Self-assembly has become a critical implement in the toolbox of nanotechnologists. Scientists and engineers who explore the nano realm posit that the same types of forces that construct a snowflake--the natural attractions and repulsions that prompt molecules to form intricate patterns--can build useful structures--say, medical implants or components in electronic chips. 
(Scientific American March 2004 Issue) 
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa001&colID=6&articleID=000170D6-C99F-101E-861F83414B7F0000

Nanotubes Go with the Flow. Researchers have assembled carbon nanotubes into arrays of loops, lassos, and hooks, according to the 13 February PRL. Physicists hope to use these several-nanometer-diameter tubes to build tiny mechanical and electronic devices, and the unexpected bending shows that they are more versatile than had been assumed. As one example, these bent tubes might lead to more sensitive sensors to detect fluid flow. (Physical Review Focus 2/13/04)
http://focus.aps.org/story/v13/st7

Imagine a computer with amazing processing power, a 3D display (literally, not figuratively) instant response, able to run every available OS and application at the same time, virtually no power consumption, zero moving parts and complete security - and whose physical component is about the size of a pack of playing cards. That's not all. It would also hold every music CD and movie DVD you ever owned, or will own, and still leave space for not only your family album, but your brother's, sister's, aunt's and uncle's too. And no more expensive upgrades. As better designs and firmware became available, you'd simply send the Optocom back to the maker and its holographic circuitry would be re-programmed with new circuits and firmware. Optocom? It reads like science fiction but it's short for Optical Computer, and it's based on firm science fact, says Michael Thomas, inventor of the atomic holographic nanotechnology that will make it possible. And it would only cost about $1,000. (P2net 2/25/04) http://p2pnet.net/story/842

Marine sponges provide model for nanoscale materials production. "Nature was nano before nano was cool," stated Henry Fountain in a recent New York Times article on the proliferation of nanotechnology research projects. No one is more aware of this fact of nature than Dan Morse of the University of California, Santa Barbara. His research groups have been studying the ways that nature builds ocean organisms at the nanoscale for over ten years. (Scienceblog 2/25/04)
http://www.scienceblog.com/community/article2361.html

OHSU researchers discover way to grow silicon nanowires. Oregon Health & Science University researchers have discovered a new way to accurately grow silicon nanowires on an electrode for use in fabricating transistors. A portion of these findings will be published in the Feb. 23 issue of Applied Physics Letter. The discovery has important implications for semiconductor research and may one day help engineers build faster computer chips. (OHSU 2/23/04) 
http://www.ohsu.edu/news/2004/022404nano.html


Gina "Nanogirl" Miller
Nanotechnology Industries
http://www.nanoindustries.com
Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com
Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org
Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute  http://www.extropy.org
Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html
Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com
"Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future."
















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From reason at longevitymeme.org  Thu Feb 26 05:54:29 2004
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:54:29 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] healthy life extension community, visualized
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNKEEDEFAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>

Here's something I jotted down today that might amuse:

http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000029.php

You can tell me how I'm getting it all wrong and go one better :)

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme


From amara at amara.com  Thu Feb 26 07:52:25 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:52:25 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Rosetta Launch postponed
Message-ID: <p05100300bc635501690c@[150.146.134.133]>

This morning : a 'weather no-go'

Will try again tomorrow.

Note: The optimum time for launch is earlier rather than later
in the launch window, in  order to encounter the asteroids
on the present planned trajectory.

Webcam from ESA
http://esa.capcave.com/esa/rotetta

Weather in Kourou:
http://www.weatherunderground.com/global/stations/81403.html

Amara


-- 

Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF),
Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR,
Roma, ITALIA     Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it


From amara at amara.com  Thu Feb 26 08:01:47 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:01:47 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Rosetta Launch postponed
Message-ID: <p05100303bc63585632c9@[150.146.134.133]>


>Webcam from ESA
>http://esa.capcave.com/esa/rotetta

Excuse my slippery fingers! This should be


http://esa.capcave.com/esa/rosetta

Amara


-- 

Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF),
Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR,
Roma, ITALIA     Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it


From amara at amara.com  Thu Feb 26 11:09:14 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:09:14 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] The Rosetta Disk by the Long Now Foundation
Message-ID: <p05100300bc638236708b@[150.146.134.133]>

(Another Rosetta news item)

Besides carrying the instruments of my work groups,
the Rosetta  spacecraft is carrying a 'Rosetta Disk'
mounted under the thermal  blankets of the orbiter,
made by the  Long Now Foundation:

http://www.longnow.org/about/RosettaMission.htm

{begin quote}

This broad collection of creation stories is intended both as an icon
for the mission as well as a functional language recovery tool for
potential finders in unknown futures. As an iconic object, the creation
stories suggest a mythic frame for the Rosetta Mission as it journeys to
the Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko to elaborate our understanding of
the scientific story of planetary genesis. And as a linguistic tool, the
1,000 parallel Genesis translations creates a contemporary version of
the historic Rosetta Stone, enabling finders to work from known
languages to decipher those on the disk unknown at the time of finding.
Whether the finders are human or otherwise, this broad archive of human
languages will hopefully offer a glimpse into the range and diversity of
vernacular symbolic systems used by the peoples and cultures that have
collectively sent the spacecraft.

This Rosetta Mission Rosetta Disk is a small platter of pure nickel,
70mm in diameter and 0.3 mm thick, weighing 6-7 grams. The 7,000 pages
are micro-etched into the nickel as physical images (think engraving at
a very small scale), with each page about a half millimeter tall.
Reading the texts on the disk requires a 500X microscope. This
high-density analog storage technology avoids the operating system,
application and format dependencies of digital storage systems as well
as the fast material decay rates of typical digital storage media.

{end quote}

-- 

***********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, INAF - ARTOV,
Via del Fosso del Cavaliere, 100, I-00133 Roma, ITALIA
tel: +39-06-4993-4375       |fax:  +39-06-4993-4383
Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it  | http://www.mpi-hd.mpg.de/dustgroup/~graps
************************************************************************
I'M SIGNIFICANT!...screamed the dust speck. -- Calvin


From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Feb 26 14:16:14 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:16:14 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Chess Computers to Overtake Humans in 2004
Message-ID: <403DFFAE.2080409@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

<http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/2/22/15209/8213>

Over the last few years the rated strength of chess computers has been
creeping upwards and is at the verge of overtaking Garry Kasparov, the
top-rated human. Jeff Sonas has written an article for ChessBase News
detailing these statistical results from the SSDF. They show computer
program Shredder at 2812, a mere 19 points away from Kasparov's 2831
FIDE rating. By linear extrapolation the programs seem to be getting
stronger at a rate of about 50 points a year so if the trend holds
computers will pass Kasparov sometime this year.

The human-conqueror may already be here in the guise of a new program
called Hydra. Two weeks ago Hydra finished ahead of both Fritz and
top-rated Shredder by a comfortable margin at the 2004 Paderborn
computer chess tournament. Hydra uses parallel processing and a field
programmable gate array (FPGA) daughter board provided by Virtex to
achieve its strength. Traditional programs lose search speed when they
increase the complexities of their evaluation heuristics in contrast to
Hydra's parallel hardware which allows it to use more advanced
heuristics with no loss of search speed.


BillK




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 26 16:43:01 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:43:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402260826230.13052-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Given our conversation on time shifting several weeks (months?)
ago, I thought I would draw attention to a /. discussion on
methods and strategies.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/26/1420209&mode=thread

It (and references cited) involve methods for timeshifting
TV, radio and book educational formats.

Doesn't handle the reassembly of a human problem which seems
to be discussed in the recent "Time Travel" thread.  But
does raise the question of how much information about what
a person viewed, liked, did, genes (as Spike pointed out)
does one need before one gets something close enough to
the original that the differences don't matter?  For
example -- how much of my mind is based on movies I
have seen, on talk shows I have listened to, on books
I have read, etc.?

If I have the genes Damien has and know all of the books
Damien has ever read -- how close can I come to the
recreation of a Damien that writes like he does?

Another interesting question...  Does anyone on the list
have something that at one time Sasha may have touched
or otherwise may have picked up some of his DNA?

Robert




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Feb 26 17:21:03 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 09:21:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402260826230.13052-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040226172103.14966.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> But
> does raise the question of how much information
> about what
> a person viewed, liked, did, genes (as Spike pointed
> out)
> does one need before one gets something close enough
> to
> the original that the differences don't matter?

Core problem: predicting what influences each event
will have, and discovering those things that only that
person knew that ve had any experiences with - whether
deliberately hidden, or simply never mentioned despite
their potentially profound effects.

My initial take on that is that this is a significant
enough problem as to prevent the approach you mention
from ever being practical: one simply can never obtain
enough information to make even a somewhat realistic
full simulation, unless the person was very closely
monitored in life or helped create the system.  (You
can have quips and quotes in very limited fields, but
that's not the same.  You can also have expert systems
programmed in part by the ones they are based on, but
that requires those people to be alive during the
programming.)

> If I have the genes Damien has and know all of the
> books
> Damien has ever read -- how close can I come to the
> recreation of a Damien that writes like he does?

Much further away than, for instance, basing the
recreation solely on Damien's writings.  And even
then, that would only imitate Damien's writing style;
it would not closely replicate his knowledge base
(unless Damien kept a very detailed diary that, as a
"writing", was also provided to the replica...and
we're talking insanely detailed, with every detail he
recalls of every academic lecture he's attended, et
cetera).

> Another interesting question...  Does anyone on the
> list
> have something that at one time Sasha may have
> touched
> or otherwise may have picked up some of his DNA?

At most, this would produce a clone, who would then
have his own experiences - a son, at most.  Don't hold
out any hopes that this would create another Sasha.


From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Thu Feb 26 17:55:35 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:55:35 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402260826230.13052-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <004f01c3fc91$bd538250$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote,
> Another interesting question...  Does anyone on the list
> have something that at one time Sasha may have touched
> or otherwise may have picked up some of his DNA?

DNA is not enough for recovery.  I know.  I have an identical twin brother
who has my exact DNA.  We have made different choices in our lives and have
different personalities.  Clones of us would not reproduce either of us, but
would give us yet another brother who is different than us.  

DNA cloning does not duplicate people.  It is just another way of
reproducing a human from a single cell.  But that human would not be closer
than we two brothers are right now.  There may not be any way to tell which
of us were cloned, because the clone would not be any more similar to one
brother than the other.

If you wanted to produce a new human that looked like Sasha, you would get
better results with an actor and plastic surgery than with cloning.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 26 19:26:22 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 11:26:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <004f01c3fc91$bd538250$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402261109340.16705-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, Harvey Newstrom wrote:

> DNA cloning does not duplicate people.  It is just another way of
> reproducing a human from a single cell.  But that human would not be closer
> than we two brothers are right now.  There may not be any way to tell which
> of us were cloned, because the clone would not be any more similar to one
> brother than the other.

Harvey (and Adrian) I understand this.  My best guess right now is that
genetics would only get you 50-60% of an identity.  But that is a start.
I probably have most of my financial records in detail for about 20 years
(so one could easily determine "what has Robert done?").  I have (or the
net could provide) many of my email posts dating back perhaps 20-25 years.
Combine this with photographs of where I have been and what I have seen
and done and one starts to come up with a Robert-B that knows much if
not more than what Robert-A knows about what he has done.

Place this on top of a genetic profile that determines motivations,
feelings, etc. and one starts to develop a personality that determines
who you are, how you act, etc.  I would assert that that would be much
better than a face recreation on top of an actor.  I have no problem
with the fact that twins are different -- but a relatively detailed
simulation of the end-point personalities/life-styles, etc. should
reveal how/when/where there was a divergence (if enough information
is available).

Doesn't anyone out there have any friends, significant others, etc.
where you *know* "If I say this -- they will say that?".  That seems
to suggest that human beings behave in a relatively deterministic
fashion.  That would imply you can backtrack development processes.
(Just as one futuretracks moves when playing chess.)  I would
suggest if humans did not behave in a relatively deterministic
fashion that society could not have developed to the extent that
it has.

Robert




From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 19:53:10 2004
From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:53:10 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
Message-ID: <Law9-F115Kldz8axXzT0000cc4c@hotmail.com>

Ever since I installed my ReplayTV I've been observing the positive effects 
of time shifting. Activities that used to take an hour now take 30 minutes. 
It feels like a type of time travel and reminds me of taking taxis in new 
york.

When I was living in new york I had a time/distance perception of my travel. 
It would take about 30 minutes to take the subway from grand central to wall 
street. This would vary by a few minutes but generally 30 minutes. Taking a 
cab only took about 10 minutes so I had 20 free minutes.

BAL

>From: "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com>
>To: Extropy Chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
>Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 08:43:01 -0800 (PST)
>
>Given our conversation on time shifting several weeks (months?)
>ago, I thought I would draw attention to a /. discussion on
>methods and strategies.
>
>http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/02/26/1420209&mode=thread
>
>It (and references cited) involve methods for timeshifting
>TV, radio and book educational formats.
>
>Doesn't handle the reassembly of a human problem which seems
>to be discussed in the recent "Time Travel" thread.  But
>does raise the question of how much information about what
>a person viewed, liked, did, genes (as Spike pointed out)
>does one need before one gets something close enough to
>the original that the differences don't matter?  For
>example -- how much of my mind is based on movies I
>have seen, on talk shows I have listened to, on books
>I have read, etc.?
>
>If I have the genes Damien has and know all of the books
>Damien has ever read -- how close can I come to the
>recreation of a Damien that writes like he does?
>
>Another interesting question...  Does anyone on the list
>have something that at one time Sasha may have touched
>or otherwise may have picked up some of his DNA?
>
>Robert
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>extropy-chat mailing list
>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat

_________________________________________________________________
Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage ? 4 plans to choose from! 
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Feb 26 20:07:18 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:07:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402261109340.16705-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040226200718.27034.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> Harvey (and Adrian) I understand this.

Judging by your comments, it does not seem that you
understand the full implications.

> My best
> guess right now is that
> genetics would only get you 50-60% of an identity. 
> But that is a start.

No, it isn't.  Even if you replicate almost all the
external factors - genes and environment - you can
still wind up with someone who has differences those
close to the person would find significant, at least
emotionally if for no other reason.  And in practice,
there's always some little bits of information that
only a person knows, which will escape any attempt by
others to discover without said person's cooperation.

> I probably have most of my financial records in
> detail for about 20 years
> (so one could easily determine "what has Robert
> done?").

To an extent.  But it wouldn't say anything about that
which cost you no money but could have had a
profound impact upon your life.  For example, your
choice of electives in college (or high school, if
they offered such): this would have significantly
affected your knowledge base, but after 20 years,
there are probably no records remaining, save maybe
your own memory.

> I have (or the
> net could provide) many of my email posts dating
> back perhaps 20-25 years.
> Combine this with photographs of where I have been
> and what I have seen
> and done and one starts to come up with a Robert-B
> that knows much if
> not more than what Robert-A knows about what he has
> done.

True.  But it does not necessarily allow perfect, or
similar, duplication of how Robert-A thinks.

Also, consider: even if perfect duplication were
possible, people change over time.  Who's to say that
Robert-B would evolve in the same way Robert-A would
under the same circumstances?  This would seem to be a
requirement of perfect duplication, if people are
deterministic as you state.  Does the answer change if
Robert-A is still alive and experiencing the same
circumstances?  If so, why?

> Place this on top of a genetic profile that
> determines motivations,
> feelings, etc. and one starts to develop a
> personality that determines
> who you are, how you act, etc.  I would assert that
> that would be much
> better than a face recreation on top of an actor.

I would assert that an actor, given the same
information (perhaps an intelligence operative or the
like), could do far better than an AI simulation
today.  I would also assert that, by the time AI
progresses such that the above is no longer true, it
will likely be practical to create backups of a
living person's memory, which will be higher fidelity
emulations than a simluation based on external
factors.

> I
> have no problem
> with the fact that twins are different -- but a
> relatively detailed
> simulation of the end-point
> personalities/life-styles, etc. should
> reveal how/when/where there was a divergence (if
> enough information
> is available).

This is analogous to why transporters are not (yet)
practical, even though bits of light have been
transported: the amount of information you'd need to
create a good simulation exceeds what today's
supercomputers can handle.  It is questionable
whether, in fact, that information might not be
unobtainable due to the Hesienberg limit; we're
talking stuff like excitation levels which would
affect exactly when certain neurons fire, and see
chaos theory for proof that that makes the bigger
picture (the person) not 100% predictable.

> Doesn't anyone out there have any friends,
> significant others, etc.
> where you *know* "If I say this -- they will say
> that?".

If you want personal experiences - even my closest
friends, I can only say that about a certain limited
range of topics, and I know I will not be 100% correct
in my predictions.

> That seems
> to suggest that human beings behave in a relatively
> deterministic
> fashion.  That would imply you can backtrack
> development processes.

There is a *MAJOR* difference between 100%
deteministic and 99% deterministic, and you've just
hinted at it.  100%, like a computer, you can
sometimes backtrack (assuming only one path of inputs
and starting conditions would lead to the observed
output).  99%, you can't, unless you're willing to
accept the possibility that you could be wrong - and
those possibilities multiply when you consider
multiple events.

Consider: what is 100% to the 1000th power?  100%.
But what is 99% to the 1000th power?  Somewhere below
.05%.  And the number of potential inaccuracies in
this situation is likely far higher than 1000.  (How
many seconds have you been alive?  Consider that
neurons fire more than once a second, and each
firing is a discrete "event"...and that's not taking
into account the genetics and pre-natal environment
that set up your brain in the first place.)

> (Just as one futuretracks moves when playing chess.)
>  I would
> suggest if humans did not behave in a relatively
> deterministic
> fashion that society could not have developed to the
> extent that
> it has.

Nope.  Society still works even with high but less
than 100% determinism.  It only has to be likely, not
guaranteed, that people will act in certain ways.  The
exceptions provide mutations to social memes; the
"mutation" rate is low enough that bad memes can
usually be trounced, while good memes will usually
thrive.  (Of course, it's still high enough that
people have to take precautions against criminals,
terrorists, and so forth...but that's proof that it
exists to some significant degree.)

(Pause for reflection on a semi-unrelated tangent.
The core problem with ideas like this is that they are
easy to disprove - except to those who believe in them
beyond reason.  They then try to implement them,
inevitably to great personal distress when the failure
becomes undeniable yet they try to deny the failure.
This is part of the "logic" behind luddites and the
like, except that they have a grossly limited view of
what's possible; they try to claim as impossible the
things we go ahead and implement, proving them and
their fears wrong.  Who's to say what's possible and
what's not possible?  Who's to say that, for example,
people are or are not in fact deterministic - and
would it be possible and practical to measure enough
information to discover this program that a person
follows?  The only way to tell is by debate like the
above.)


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Thu Feb 26 20:13:36 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:13:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Law9-F115Kldz8axXzT0000cc4c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040226201336.29499.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Brian Lee <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Ever since I installed my ReplayTV I've been
> observing the positive effects 
> of time shifting. Activities that used to take an
> hour now take 30 minutes. 
> It feels like a type of time travel and reminds me
> of taking taxis in new 
> york.
> 
> When I was living in new york I had a time/distance
> perception of my travel. 
> It would take about 30 minutes to take the subway
> from grand central to wall 
> street. This would vary by a few minutes but
> generally 30 minutes. Taking a 
> cab only took about 10 minutes so I had 20 free
> minutes.

That's not really "timeshifting", but "optimization".
"Timeshifting" refers to doing the exact same thing at
another time - for instance, watching the show with
commercials intact, all the unpredicted interruptions
and distractions which were poorly handled (and thus
took longer) since you were trying to watch an
unpausable show at the same time, et cetera.  It is,
of course, a cover label for the optimization that we
really use these devices for.

>From what I've been hearing lately, time is the
dominant commodity for many people here in Silicon
Valley: that which saves time is valuable, while that
which wastes time (without any benefit, i.e. excluding
the pleasurable/entertainment "time wasting" many
people indulge in) is almost universally frowned upon.


From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com  Thu Feb 26 20:52:04 2004
From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:52:04 -0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402260826230.13052-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <001e01c3fcaa$70148a20$0600000a@Bryan>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote:

> But does raise the question of how much information about what a person
> viewed, liked, did, genes (as Spike pointed out) does one need before one
> gets something close enough to the original that the differences don't
> matter?  For example -- how much of my mind is based on movies I have
> seen, on talk shows I have listened to, on books I have read, etc.?

I think if you assume a functionalist, nativist account of the mind, then
you can fairly happily say that there's a space of all possible mind states
that is finite (albeit large) and pre-statable (in principle).  Moreover,
each mind state could probably be assigned a probability that's contingent
on the previous mind state, so I could look for all mind states that would
produce your above quote and cross reference those against other sentences
you've produced, and gradually narrow down the number of "mental histories"
through the entire space that could possibly belong to you, given that
evidence.  I think we can also safely assume that some evidence will be more
Robert-ish than other evidence, so the quality of our evidence would be a
factor (it's interesting to speculate what "evidence" would likely pin you
down more; I tend to think it would be things you've produced - texts,
speech acts, etc - as opposed to things you've consumed).  But, at this
point, I think all we can safely say is that you wouldn't have to know
*everything* about a person by any means.

BM



From eugen at leitl.org  Thu Feb 26 21:12:52 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 22:12:52 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Law9-F115Kldz8axXzT0000cc4c@hotmail.com>
References: <Law9-F115Kldz8axXzT0000cc4c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040226211252.GL32608@leitl.org>

On Thu, Feb 26, 2004 at 02:53:10PM -0500, Brian Lee wrote:

> Ever since I installed my ReplayTV I've been observing the positive effects 

Ever since I stopped watching the bo0b tube I've been observing how
remarkably biased and vacuous the average TV program is. I've thus time-shifted
the program to infinity, and it increased the quality of life a lot. As a
side effect, cinema has become a lot more impressive. Wow.

I'm wondering whether the Internet is next. Too many people have realized
that it's not worth their time. Is anyone even reading this mail? Hello?

> of time shifting. Activities that used to take an hour now take 30 minutes. 

I wish I could buy daily 30 min of highly personalized video fit to watch.
Unfortunately, no one is selling a service like this. No doubt the market is
infinitesimal. It would be worthwhile to rip digitized TV and peer-review it,
but I don't want to pay the state TV tax, nor become a criminal by illegally
recording, and thus becoming vulnerable to the fee collection racket.

> It feels like a type of time travel and reminds me of taking taxis in new 
> york.
> 
> When I was living in new york I had a time/distance perception of my 
> travel. It would take about 30 minutes to take the subway from grand 
> central to wall street. This would vary by a few minutes but generally 30 
> minutes. Taking a cab only took about 10 minutes so I had 20 free minutes.

After the public transportation in my current home city deteriorated 
sufficiently so that the daily commute became a major aggravation, I reluctantly took to
the car.

The commute time has shrunk to less than half, but I no longer can read on
the road. Having not to watch random other people, vandalized interiors and
escaping the winter sniffle season is a tolerable tradeoff for that.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Thu Feb 26 21:35:36 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:35:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <20040226211252.GL32608@leitl.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402261322210.19723-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, Eugen Leitl wrote:

> Is anyone even reading this mail? Hello?

Don't worry Eugen, I'll tend to read your emails.  I'll even read segments
of THT when I can get to it (though I tend to try to discriminate based
on my interests).

> The commute time has shrunk to less than half, but I no longer can read on
> the road. Having not to watch random other people, vandalized interiors and
> escaping the winter sniffle season is a tolerable tradeoff for that.

That is part of the basis of my point.  Timeshifting in a car (safely) requires
a greater amount of mental attention as to when one pays attention to the tape,
video, etc. and when one pays attention to the external environment.  We obviously
have technologies on the drawing board to eliminate the need to deal with the
external environment.  In fact the recent attack of an air traffic controller
in SW/DE was due to the fact that an air traffic controller instructed a bypass
of the automated avoidance systems that resulted in an in flight collision.
(I.e. the automated systems were safer than those that resulted from human
intervention.)

One has to trade-off "education time" vs. "safety risks".  Not easy IMO.

Robert





From sjvans at ameritech.net  Fri Feb 27 02:29:21 2004
From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:29:21 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] To All Alcor Members
Message-ID: <1077848960.1066.18.camel@Renfield>

>From Joe Wanick
President/CEO
Alcor Foundation



To All Alcor Members;

 

I am happy and proud to say that Alcor, its members, and the state of
Arizona have won a great victory today! 

 

Early Wednesday morning, Barry Aarons, Tanya Jones, and I met with
Representative Stump and several of his advisors for nearly forty-five
minutes to discuss HB 2637. We were very pleasantly surprised at the
openness and flexibility demonstrated by Mr. Stump in our sometimes
frank discussions. During that meeting, we were able to successfully
communicate to him the sincere concerns we had with his bill as
originally proposed and why our membership was so strongly opposed its
passage. 

 

It is our opinion that prior to this meeting, Mr. Stump sincerely did
not understand the unintended negative consequences his bill would have
on Alcor, its members, and on the science of cryopreservation as a
whole.

 

After patiently listening to our concerns Mr. Stump expressed a
willingness to modify several key provisions of the bill as a show of
good faith to the constituents of this legislation in exchange for a
commitment from us to continue dialogue for appropriate oversight of
cryonics as practiced in the state of Arizona.

 

Since representation at the negotiation table is what we?ve been
requesting from the day Alcor first became engaged in the legislative
process, we were of course elated at the opportunity to sit with
representatives of the legislature and their advisors in a spirit of
cooperation and craft legislation that will provide the level of
oversight legitimately required by the state while simultaneously
securing protection for patient privacy, guaranteeing the constitutional
right of self-determination of our members, and establishment once and
for all the legislative legitimacy of cryonics.

 

At the conclusion of that meeting, Representative Stump demonstrated
outstanding leadership and courage by agreeing in principle to consider
amendments to his bill that would eliminate some of the most serious
concerns of Alcor and its membership in a show of good faith. We were
most impressed.

 

Today, literally an hour before the hearing was to begin, we received
word that amendments had been filed and that Representative Stump was
receptive to hearing the balance of our concerns that blocked agreement
to a bill. After reviewing the amendments and exchanging negotiating
points with Representative Stump that outlined some of our remaining
issues we were able to secure the following understanding:

 

1.                 Alcor?s ability to utilize the UAGA was restored via
amendment;

 

2.                 The requirement for an embalmer to store our patients
or participate in our procedures was struck from the bill via amendment;

 

3.                 In addition, we committed to meet with all interested
parties and seek agreement upon the following:

a.     Expand the Funeral Board by up to two members to include experts
in the field of cryopreservation or change the composition of the
existing board to include up to two experts in the field of
cryopreservation;

b.     Require a cryopreservation expert on the staff of the Funeral
Board to execute oversight;

c.     To establish the statutory legitimacy of cryonics through a
legislated definition of cryopreservation;

d.     Define the scope of the oversight through legislation and not
left singularly up to a rules committee;

e.     To extend the effective date of the bill to September 1, 2005 to
leave open our option of legislative redress in the unlikely event that
appropriate rules cannot be agreed upon between Alcor and the Funeral
Board.

 

Due to the good faith agreements obtained prior to the committee hearing
in conjunction with the proposed amendments, Alcor reduced its
opposition to passage of HB 2637 on the condition that agreement can be
reached on the verbal understandings listed above.

 

It should be noted that several members of the Health Committee
expressed reservations about having Alcor overseen by the Funeral Board,
but conceded that if legislation were necessary, it would be placed
there but reserve the right to find a more appropriate place to house
cryonics oversight in the future. Moreover, many of the committee
members reserved the right to change their vote when the bill is
presented on the House floor if agreements cannot be reached on the
aforementioned items. Our heartfelt gratitude, respect and admiration go
out to the courageous Representatives who agreed to support our cause.

 

After the hearing, I had the opportunity to have some very constructive
dialogue with Randy Bunker and Rudy Thomas who both enthusiastically
looked forward to engaging Alcor and finalizing the framework of the
proposed oversight. 

 

The progress of today?s hearing would not have been possible without the
tireless efforts of a number of good people, including Barry Aarons,
David Brandt-Erichsen, Saul Kent, Tanya Jones, Aubrey de Grey, and Steve
Rude. In addition, we must thank all the brave souls who traveled to
Phoenix to testify but were unable to do so due to legislative time
constraints including Steve Harris, Mark and Judy Muhlestein, Ted and
Bobby Kraver, Jim Lewis, and two organ preservation scientists who wish
to remain anonymous.  

 

We must also thank those members who attended the hearing as a public
show of support for Alcor. Lastly, but certainly not least, we must
thank all of the members who took time away from their busy schedules to
eMail, fax, and call Arizona state legislators, urging them to oppose
this bill. When they revealed to us that they were receiving from
150-200 eMails per day we realized that you all really made a
difference! Thank you!!!

 

Joe Waynick

CEO/President

Alcor Life Extension Foundation

 



From iph1954 at msn.com  Fri Feb 27 01:55:07 2004
From: iph1954 at msn.com (MIKE TREDER)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:55:07 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] C-R-Newsletter #16 
Message-ID: <BAY5-F23qJ9F4SGc4qD00010bfc@hotmail.com>

The latest C-R-Newsletter has been posted at 
http://www.crnano.org/newsletter.htm#16.

Contents of this issue include information about CRN's upcoming trips: to 
CHINA-- Chris Phoenix will speak at a conference there and go on a lecture 
tour; to CALIFORNIA-- Mike Treder will be a featured speaker at a Foresight 
Institute event; to SOUTH CAROLINA -- Mike will present a paper on nanotech 
terminology at a USC conference.

We also have a report from Chris about his attendance and presentations at 
the IEEE/FIU Nanodevices conference in Florida, some observations about nano 
politics, and a special technical briefing from Chris on nucleic acid 
engineering.

Read the whole newsletter at http://CRNano.org/newsletter.htm#16

Or sign up for a free subscription at 
http://responsiblenanotechnology.org/contact.htm

See you in the future!

Mike Treder
Executive Director, Center for Responsible Nanotechnology - 
http://CRNano.org
Director, World Transhumanist Association - http://transhumanism.org
Founder, Incipient Posthuman Website - http://incipientposthuman.com
Executive Advisory Team, Extropy Institute - http://extropy.org
KurzweilAI "Big Thinker" - http://kurzweilai.net/bios/frame.html

Interests: acting, architecture, art, baseball, bicycling, cosmology, film, 
future studies, hiking, history, music, people, science fiction, technology, 
writing, & more

"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people 
always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become 
great." - Mark Twain

_________________________________________________________________
Say ?good-bye? to spam, viruses and pop-ups with MSN Premium -- free trial 
offer! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200359ave/direct/01/



From gregburch at gregburch.net  Fri Feb 27 02:14:24 2004
From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:14:24 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] To All Alcor Members
In-Reply-To: <1077848960.1066.18.camel@Renfield>
Message-ID: <PMEELDEBLOLPFEFPEIBDKEKACDAA.gregburch@gregburch.net>

This is a MAJOR victory for Alcor!  I spoke with Tanya earlier this week and know ya'll were working your hearts out.  I got one response from one of the committee members to the emails I sent, and it was positive for our position and appeared to be other than a form message, so it looks like this was a classic example of a successful lobbying effort -- They were paying attention!

Way to go!

Greg Burch, VP, Extropy Institute

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Stephen J.
> Van Sickle
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:29 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: [extropy-chat] To All Alcor Members
> 
> 
> >From Joe Wanick
> President/CEO
> Alcor Foundation
> 
> 
> 
> To All Alcor Members;
> 
>  
> 
> I am happy and proud to say that Alcor, its members, and the state of
> Arizona have won a great victory today! 
> 
>  
> 
> Early Wednesday morning, Barry Aarons, Tanya Jones, and I met with
> Representative Stump and several of his advisors for nearly forty-five
> minutes to discuss HB 2637. We were very pleasantly surprised at the
> openness and flexibility demonstrated by Mr. Stump in our sometimes
> frank discussions. During that meeting, we were able to successfully
> communicate to him the sincere concerns we had with his bill as
> originally proposed and why our membership was so strongly opposed its
> passage. 
> 
>  
> 
> It is our opinion that prior to this meeting, Mr. Stump sincerely did
> not understand the unintended negative consequences his bill would have
> on Alcor, its members, and on the science of cryopreservation as a
> whole.
> 
>  
> 
> After patiently listening to our concerns Mr. Stump expressed a
> willingness to modify several key provisions of the bill as a show of
> good faith to the constituents of this legislation in exchange for a
> commitment from us to continue dialogue for appropriate oversight of
> cryonics as practiced in the state of Arizona.
> 
>  
> 
> Since representation at the negotiation table is what we?ve been
> requesting from the day Alcor first became engaged in the legislative
> process, we were of course elated at the opportunity to sit with
> representatives of the legislature and their advisors in a spirit of
> cooperation and craft legislation that will provide the level of
> oversight legitimately required by the state while simultaneously
> securing protection for patient privacy, guaranteeing the constitutional
> right of self-determination of our members, and establishment once and
> for all the legislative legitimacy of cryonics.
> 
>  
> 
> At the conclusion of that meeting, Representative Stump demonstrated
> outstanding leadership and courage by agreeing in principle to consider
> amendments to his bill that would eliminate some of the most serious
> concerns of Alcor and its membership in a show of good faith. We were
> most impressed.
> 
>  
> 
> Today, literally an hour before the hearing was to begin, we received
> word that amendments had been filed and that Representative Stump was
> receptive to hearing the balance of our concerns that blocked agreement
> to a bill. After reviewing the amendments and exchanging negotiating
> points with Representative Stump that outlined some of our remaining
> issues we were able to secure the following understanding:
> 
>  
> 
> 1.                 Alcor?s ability to utilize the UAGA was restored via
> amendment;
> 
>  
> 
> 2.                 The requirement for an embalmer to store our patients
> or participate in our procedures was struck from the bill via amendment;
> 
>  
> 
> 3.                 In addition, we committed to meet with all interested
> parties and seek agreement upon the following:
> 
> a.     Expand the Funeral Board by up to two members to include experts
> in the field of cryopreservation or change the composition of the
> existing board to include up to two experts in the field of
> cryopreservation;
> 
> b.     Require a cryopreservation expert on the staff of the Funeral
> Board to execute oversight;
> 
> c.     To establish the statutory legitimacy of cryonics through a
> legislated definition of cryopreservation;
> 
> d.     Define the scope of the oversight through legislation and not
> left singularly up to a rules committee;
> 
> e.     To extend the effective date of the bill to September 1, 2005 to
> leave open our option of legislative redress in the unlikely event that
> appropriate rules cannot be agreed upon between Alcor and the Funeral
> Board.
> 
>  
> 
> Due to the good faith agreements obtained prior to the committee hearing
> in conjunction with the proposed amendments, Alcor reduced its
> opposition to passage of HB 2637 on the condition that agreement can be
> reached on the verbal understandings listed above.
> 
>  
> 
> It should be noted that several members of the Health Committee
> expressed reservations about having Alcor overseen by the Funeral Board,
> but conceded that if legislation were necessary, it would be placed
> there but reserve the right to find a more appropriate place to house
> cryonics oversight in the future. Moreover, many of the committee
> members reserved the right to change their vote when the bill is
> presented on the House floor if agreements cannot be reached on the
> aforementioned items. Our heartfelt gratitude, respect and admiration go
> out to the courageous Representatives who agreed to support our cause.
> 
>  
> 
> After the hearing, I had the opportunity to have some very constructive
> dialogue with Randy Bunker and Rudy Thomas who both enthusiastically
> looked forward to engaging Alcor and finalizing the framework of the
> proposed oversight. 
> 
>  
> 
> The progress of today?s hearing would not have been possible without the
> tireless efforts of a number of good people, including Barry Aarons,
> David Brandt-Erichsen, Saul Kent, Tanya Jones, Aubrey de Grey, and Steve
> Rude. In addition, we must thank all the brave souls who traveled to
> Phoenix to testify but were unable to do so due to legislative time
> constraints including Steve Harris, Mark and Judy Muhlestein, Ted and
> Bobby Kraver, Jim Lewis, and two organ preservation scientists who wish
> to remain anonymous.  
> 
>  
> 
> We must also thank those members who attended the hearing as a public
> show of support for Alcor. Lastly, but certainly not least, we must
> thank all of the members who took time away from their busy schedules to
> eMail, fax, and call Arizona state legislators, urging them to oppose
> this bill. When they revealed to us that they were receiving from
> 150-200 eMails per day we realized that you all really made a
> difference! Thank you!!!
> 
>  
> 
> Joe Waynick
> 
> CEO/President
> 
> Alcor Life Extension Foundation
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 27 03:49:15 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:49:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] To All Alcor Members
In-Reply-To: <1077848960.1066.18.camel@Renfield>
Message-ID: <20040227034915.7173.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" <sjvans at ameritech.net>
wrote:
> b.     Require a cryopreservation expert on the
> staff of the Funeral
> Board to execute oversight;
> 
> c.     To establish the statutory legitimacy of
> cryonics through a
> legislated definition of cryopreservation;

If these go through...congratulations, you've
embedded this into the government, much like state
lotteries in many states.  But that's a good thing in
this case, considering the alternative we were faced
with.

- someone to whom life has just handed life insurance,
thus removing his only reason on waiting to apply for
Alcor membership (once the paperwork clears).


From extropy at unreasonable.com  Fri Feb 27 04:36:22 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:36:22 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Astrobabble
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040226233431.02698ca0@mail.comcast.net>

The NBC affiliate in Boston, WHDH, just ran a lengthy piece on their 11 PM 
newscast explaining how astrology works. The piece was about 20% of their 
entire broadcast, was entirely favorable, treated astrology as science, and 
pointed the viewer to their web site for more information.

The piece is transcribed, pretty much as aired, at

http://web1.whdh.com/features/articles/specialreport/A443/

Sigh.


-- David Lubkin.




From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu  Fri Feb 27 07:14:14 2004
From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:14:14 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] 14 Superfoods for long life?
Message-ID: <403EEE46.C58C4200@Genius.UCSD.edu>


BillK wrote:
>Since I posted the original list, I've done some more searching and
>found more data plus some examples of the alternatives quoted from the book.

	Thanks for posting them.
	Are other important foods mentioned, such as seaweeds, onions
	and garlic, ginger, turmeric, brewer's yeast, etc.?

>The book also insists that exercise is necessary for good health.
>[...] According to the book's "lifestyle pyramid," the linchpin of 
>good health includes 30 to 60 minutes a day of aerobic exercise 
>and weight training two to three times a week.

	Yes on the aerobics and weight training, but there seems to
	be an even more effective form of weight training involving
	only one visit to the gym per week ... or even less!  It's 
	called Static Contraction training, and there are more recent
	refinements as well:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0809229072/qid=1077865405//ref=pd_ka_1/103-8498782-7658203?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071423958/qid=1077865496/sr=1-12/ref=sr_1_12/103-8498782-7658203?v=glance&s=books
http://precisiontraining.com/

	I have the Static Contraction book, and it's an interesting
	read, but haven't yet started my own personal program.
	Has anyone else here tried it yet?

	Johnius


From amara at amara.com  Fri Feb 27 07:31:28 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 08:31:28 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Rosetta launch delayed for technical reasons
Message-ID: <p05100300bc649e9a459d@[150.146.134.133]>

http://www.esa.int

"Rosetta launch delayed for technical reasons"
 
27 February 2004   Today's launch of Flight 158 with the Rosetta
spacecraft has been delayed for technical reasons. A piece of foam
became detached from the main stage and technical inspections are in
progress. The Rosetta spacecraft is safely under control and no
interventions are required. Launch is tentatively rescheduled for
early next week. Arianespace will hold a press conference in Kourou
at 08:30 CET. A press briefing will take place simultaneously in
ESOC, Darmstadt.

What I want to know is, WHY was this not discovered yesterday???

and more:

WHY has ESA continued to depend a ten-year, billion euro
space project) on a launch company that apparently cannot
launch ??!!

-- 

Amara Graps, PhD
Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI)
Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF),
Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR,
Roma, ITALIA     Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 27 08:21:17 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:21:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Rosetta launch delayed for technical reasons
In-Reply-To: <p05100300bc649e9a459d@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <20040227082117.20392.qmail@web80408.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:
> WHY has ESA continued to depend a ten-year, billion
> euro
> space project) on a launch company that apparently
> cannot
> launch ??!!

Because they think that there is no one else who can
do a better job.

They're dead wrong, but that's what they think.  NASA
suffers from a similar mental box.  (Read corruption,
simple incompetence, or whatever else you want as the
cause of that; the problem's certainly big enough to
have multiple causes.)


From maxm at mail.tele.dk  Fri Feb 27 10:37:23 2004
From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:37:23 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402260826230.13052-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402260826230.13052-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <403F1DE3.2080704@mail.tele.dk>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote:

> Doesn't handle the reassembly of a human problem which seems
> to be discussed in the recent "Time Travel" thread.  But
> does raise the question of how much information about what
> a person viewed, liked, did, genes (as Spike pointed out)
> does one need before one gets something close enough to
> the original that the differences don't matter?  For
> example -- how much of my mind is based on movies I
> have seen, on talk shows I have listened to, on books
> I have read, etc.?


I don't think you can recreate a person that way.

When I think back on what has changed/shaped me I allways come to think 
some resonating ideas/experiences.

Meaning that a few things has stuck in my mind, and made a serious 
impact on how I have percieved the world from then on.

This implies to me, that a few basic powerfull ideas has a lot of impact 
on the individual.

Those doesn't nessecarily come from your reading list. But more often by 
reading something on that list that resonates with your experiences.

But I also belive that it is just as important to get these ideas when 
you are ready for them. Otherwise they will not resonate as well.

Just think of the times when you have had a bunch of ideas fitting 
together very well, but it was not until others gave them a name that 
you had that aha! experience. Transhumanism spring to mind as an obvious 
example.


regards Max M Rasmusen, Denmark


From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Fri Feb 27 12:28:56 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 07:28:56 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402261109340.16705-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <002a01c3fd2d$4c7d46a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote,
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004, Harvey Newstrom wrote:
> > DNA cloning does not duplicate people.  It is just another way of
> > reproducing a human from a single cell.  But that human 
> > would not be closer than we two brothers are right now.  There may
> > not be any way to tell which of us were cloned, because the clone
> > would not be any more similar to one brother than the other.
> 
> Harvey (and Adrian) I understand this.  My best guess right
> now is that genetics would only get you 50-60% of an 
> identity.  

I am assuming that you don't know any identical twins.  They are not 50-60%
the same personality or identity.  To claim that an upload of one would be
50-60% the same as an upload of the other is outrageous.  They simply aren't
that similar.  You are giving DNA much more deterministic control over
people's identity decades later than it could possibly have.  Again,
identical twins simply disprove your assumptions.

> But that is a start. I probably have most of my
> financial records in detail for about 20 years (so one could 
> easily determine "what has Robert done?").  I have (or the 
> net could provide) many of my email posts dating back perhaps 
> 20-25 years. Combine this with photographs of where I have 
> been and what I have seen and done and one starts to come up 
> with a Robert-B that knows much if not more than what 
> Robert-A knows about what he has done.

You must greatly underestimate what you know or what you have done if you
think your sum-total knowledge can be recreated from credit card receipts,
itineraries, and e-mails.  It simply isn't even 1% of your sum-total
knowledge, memories, experiences, and psychology.

> Place this on top of a genetic profile that determines
> motivations, feelings, etc.
> and one starts to develop a 
> personality that determines who you are, how you act, etc.

Genetic profiles DON'T determine motivations, feelings, etc.  You are simply
wrong about this assumption.  Psychologists get all excited if they can
detect a statistically significant connection of a percent or two between
genetic factors.  People are still 98% unpredictable, much less internally
deterministic.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Fri Feb 27 13:56:22 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 05:56:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <002a01c3fd2d$4c7d46a0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402270525050.8152-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Fri, 27 Feb 2004, Harvey Newstrom wrote:

> I am assuming that you don't know any identical twins.  They are not 50-60%
> the same personality or identity.

You are correct in that I have never had any extensive experience
with identical twins.  I have however reviewed a fair amount of
the literature regarding such features as IQ and aging between
siblings, non-identical twins and identical twins where the
genetic component comes out at 50-60%.

> You must greatly underestimate what you know or what you have done if you
> think your sum-total knowledge can be recreated from credit card receipts,
> itineraries, and e-mails.  It simply isn't even 1% of your sum-total
> knowledge, memories, experiences, and psychology.

I would disagree.  My sum-total knowledge dictates what I do.
The question is can one backtrack from what I do to who I am?
If I lose a chess game I can backtrack through a number of moves
until I reach the point where I understand where I made a mistake.
How is this any different from backtracking the fact that I took
my brothers to Club Med in Cancun many years ago?  Why did I
do that?  There are only a limited number of answers.  A reasonable
data-mining exercise should reveal my motivations.

Why is Amara posting to the ExI list about the Rosetta not getting
off the ground?  (Nod of head to Amara because I would like it off
the ground as well)  It doesn't take a rocket scientist (nod of
head to spike) to figure that one out.

So I would suggest that there may be more information content
in the observation of humans than one might suspect.

> Genetic profiles DON'T determine motivations, feelings, etc.  You are simply
> wrong about this assumption.  Psychologists get all excited if they can
> detect a statistically significant connection of a percent or two between
> genetic factors.  People are still 98% unpredictable, much less internally
> deterministic.

Harvey, I have no problem with the fact that people are non-deterministic.
There is too much random activity in the cortext IMO for determinism
to be the primary case.  But I would disagree that genetic profiles
do not determine motivations, feelings, etc. -- they are most probably
not single gene cases.  I recently posted a reference to oxytocin
and vasopressin are the key determinants to feeling "in love".
More probably there may be 5 to 10 genes operating in a specific
disease, perspective, etc.  This explains why psychologists have
such a hard time detecting connections.  Without a very large
statistical population and knowledge of what genetic variants to
study it is very difficult to draw meaningful conclusions. There
will be variations between siblings.  Even within identical twins
there may be epigenetic factors contributing to differences.
On top of that there are experiences contributing to the differences.
But I would dispute the point that genetics is not laying a
strong foundation for "who I am?".

And that does not really go to the issue of whether sufficient
knowledge of how actions driven by mental knowledge/state
(say data-mining the behavior of 100 million humans with
complete genomic information and understanding) can not allow
one to derive Robert-B from Robert-A.

Another way of looking at this problem is "How do you know this
message is being posted by Robert-A and not by Robert-B?".

Robert




From amara at amara.com  Fri Feb 27 15:12:29 2004
From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:12:29 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
Message-ID: <p05100300bc650e60eee7@[150.146.134.133]>


... and now for something completely different for your Friday
(or totally expected, depending on your perspective. )  Hehe !

http://www.thepoorman.net/archives/002360.html#002360



White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon


FEBRUARY 26, 2004

NEWS UPDATE

White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon

By REUTERS

Filed at 1:07 p.m. ET 02/26/04

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Worried by flagging poll numbers, a
deteriorating situation in Iraq, and a sluggish economy, President
Bush called on Congress today to approve a constitutional amendment
that would ban gay sex on the Moon. Republican leaders hailed the
move as a bold step to unite the country in a bold and
forward-looking strategy to spread family values across the solar
system, and protect the legacy of the Apollo missions.

"This is an excellent idea, simply excellent," said house Majority
Leader Tom DeLay. "I remember the Apollo missions, and the
incredible spirit of national pride and the interest in science and
our amazing universe that it created. All the kids in the
neighborhood wanted to be astronauts. It was like a Tom Hanks movie.
And, looking for the first time at a man in an air-tight bunny suit
walking around the antiseptic, cratered, lifeless surface of that
blasted orb, I knew I wanted to grow up to be an exterminator. But
all these beautiful dreams would be destroyed forever if some gay
people got up there and had sex. I think we'd just have to blow up
the Moon or something."

[see the page above for more spoofing]
-- 

********************************************************************
Amara Graps, PhD          email: amara at amara.com
Computational Physics     vita:  ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt
Multiplex Answers         URL:   http://www.amara.com/
********************************************************************
"A million here, a million there, sooner or later it is real money."
    --  U.S. Senator Dirksen


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 27 16:01:43 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 11:01:43 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Earthlink ? 
Message-ID: <191690-22004252716143818@M2W097.mail2web.com>

For the past month, I have been having terrible problems with my email -
not receiving it in a timly fashion, not knowing if my mail gets out, etc. 
I've been with Earthlink for years and am one of those people who has so
much on my plate that changing accounts is a real drag.

Yes, okay, so find another way to deliver and receive email. Right.  We are
still adapting to our new location and getting all the proper 21st century
"stuff."

Anyway, earthlink says their problem dates back to 1/22/04.  That's over a
month.  

Am I the only fool still using earthlink?

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From eugen at leitl.org  Fri Feb 27 16:13:20 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:13:20 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Earthlink ?
In-Reply-To: <191690-22004252716143818@M2W097.mail2web.com>
References: <191690-22004252716143818@M2W097.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <20040227161320.GY6881@leitl.org>

On Fri, Feb 27, 2004 at 11:01:43AM -0500, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote:

> Anyway, earthlink says their problem dates back to 1/22/04.  That's over a
> month.  
> 
> Am I the only fool still using earthlink?

I recommend http://geekmail.com/

An ISP can typically hardly be relied upon to provide connectivity.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 27 16:40:30 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 09:40:30 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Perceptual-blindness experiments (fwd)
Message-ID: <403F72FE.CBD6A2D0@mindspring.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

I've been very interested in human perception and information processing
for many years now. Our brains are pretty flakey even on a good day
(half-assed may be 1/4 ass too positive?), and the slightest change in
chemistry brought on by stress, drugs, diet, disease, etc., can totally
alter how we perceive the world around us.

Which is why eyewitnesses are so suspect in criminal investigations.
Police prefer to never base any arrest totally on an eyewitness without
any supporting physical evidence simply because the eyewitness is almost
always wrong about much of what they think they saw.

So I love these kind of experiments.

< http://viscog.beckman.uiuc.edu/media/sciam.html >

Here's how it works. There's a one-minute video of two teams, each with
3 players. One team has white shirts and one team has black shirts.
They're tossing around 2 basketballs. The subject's task is to count the
number of passes made by the white team. About 35 seconds into the
video, a guy dressed in a gorilla outfit enters the mix, beats his chest
for about 9 seconds and then leaves.

When people do this test, the results are that 50% never see the gorilla
guy. Yep, 50%. Doesn't mater who you test. Out of any group of people,
50% will concentrate so hard on watching the basketballs that they don't
see anything else in the film.

The effect is called inattentional-blindness. It probably happens
because (1) visual perception does not work like a camera. We "see" what
our brains process, not what our eyes see. (2) heavy concentration on
one thing requires enough brain resources that there's not much left
over for other tasks. (3) we tend to see what we expect to see, not
what's really there.

None of this is a problem when you have lots of time, it's only a
problem when you have no more than a few seconds to perceive and
interpret some unusual event.

Good stuff for a novel. Character commits a crime in such a way that
half the witnesses don't even see him do it. Police are stumped because
half the witnesses say one thing, half say another, and ALL can pass lie
detector tests. [Lie detectors don't test whether you're lying. They
test whether you feel guiltily about lying. If you're wrong but think
you're telling the truth, you zip right through the test.]

The difficult part, as with much fiction, is convincing readers that
such a bizarre but true effect is really true and not the made-up part
of the story. 8-)


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Feb 27 16:54:06 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:54:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: european imports
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402230842460.30069-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<000001c3faa5$70e3c8f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
Message-ID: <c1nsne$17gg$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Spike <spike66 at comcast.net> wrote:

> I am looking at a new car and I like the BMWs and
> Volvos, but they cost about half again as much
> as a comparable 'murican car.

I'm not up to date on the latest status of the trade wars, but there
is probably some import taxation involved.  On the other hand, BMW
has a plant in ... South Carolina? ... where they locally produce
at least the 3xx series for the US market, which should avoid import
taxes and profits from low labor cost.

> Question: in Germany, does a beemer cost half again what an
> American car costs, or are they about the same?

What American cars?  There are effectively no American cars here.
Unless you count Ford and Opel (part of GM), but their European
product portfolio is largely independent and consists of locally
designed and produced models.

Anyway, BMWs are somewhat on the expensive/luxury side, but of
course BMW also has a wide range of models.

> Im trying to figure out how much of the cost differential
> is due to import costs and how much due to, I assume,
> higher quality parts and accessories?

There is also the issue of market positioning.

> Naddy, do you know from cars?

Somewhat uncharacteristically for my age and sex group, I don't
care much about cars other than as a very pragmatic means of
transport.  I remember being at some party where a guy asked me for
the engine power rating of my car and he was aghast when I proceeded
to dig the papers from my wallet because I just don't memorize such
details.

BTW, if you were thinking about personally importing a car from
Europe, forget it.  Regulations concerning everything from the
lights to environmental and safety issues are so different that
cars are purpose-built for the North American/European/etc markets.
Conversion, which would presumably be required by the local DMV,
is uneconomical.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Feb 27 17:07:11 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:07:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: european imports
References: <000001c3faa5$70e3c8f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY>
	<000401c3fae1$76bf4ce0$e4b21b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <c1ntfv$17ot$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

scerir <scerir at libero.it> wrote:

> so you can choose your favorite and also realize
> the price, in Euros, in Italy.
> Look, the cheapest place in Europe is Belgium,
> dunno why, but there are very different prices,
> in the range +/- 10%, or even more, for the same
> model, through Europe.

Automobile pricing in the EU is a mess due to wildly different
taxation schemes.

For example, in Denmark there is a high (purchase?) tax on cars.
So in order to offset this, manufacturers sell their cars cheaper
in Denmark.  Some enterprising Germans quickly realized that they
could buy a car in Denmark at low cost and not have to pay the
Danish tax since they would immediately export the car to Germany.
Similary gains are to be made between various other countries.  In
fact, the EU is much in favor of such cross-border trade.  The car
manufacturers aren't, obviously, so they ordered their dealerships
not to sell cars to foreign customers.  When the EU got wind of
this, they brought anti-trust suits against the car companies,
resulting in heavy fines.  Of course the car companies are still
trying to curb cross-border sales using more discreet means.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Fri Feb 27 17:41:57 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:41:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
References: <p05100300bc650e60eee7@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <c1nvh5$1904$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

Amara Graps <amara at amara.com> wrote:

> ... and now for something completely different for your Friday
> (or totally expected, depending on your perspective. )  Hehe !

To put a more serious twist on this:

Social conservatives all over are up in arms against gay marriage.
I realize I'm probably asking the wrong audience here, but can
somebody explain to me WHY?

Supposedly gay marriage is eroding the institution of marriage.
And apparently this is such an obvious truth that no explanation
needs to be given.  Alas, I just don't get it.  Over the decades
there has in fact been a continuous erosion of marriage's special
status by the courts who increasingly decide on constitutional
grounds that such and such special provision, formerly reserved for
married couples, also needs to extend to unmarried (male-female)
couples.  Given this, gays' desire for marriage looks to me like
clearly being in support of what is arguably an anachronistic and
patriarchist custom.  The conservatives should be all in favor.

I just don't understand it.

But then I don't understand homophobia in general (cui malo?), nor
why people get so riled up over a very small part of the population
that by normal attention economics should instead be suffering from
utter neglect.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From natashavita at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 27 18:22:21 2004
From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:22:21 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
Message-ID: <57050-22004252718222163@M2W063.mail2web.com>


From: Amara Graps 

"Republican leaders hailed the
move as a bold step to unite the country in a bold and
forward-looking strategy to spread family values across the solar
system, and protect the legacy of the Apollo missions."


Eeekkkk!  For crying out loud!  These folks need to get a frick'n life!

Reading this gave me the exact same sensation as stepping on a slug
barefoot.

Natasha

--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 27 18:25:49 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:25:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <c1nvh5$1904$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040227182549.51381.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> To put a more serious twist on this:
> 
> Social conservatives all over are up in arms against
> gay marriage.
> I realize I'm probably asking the wrong audience
> here, but can
> somebody explain to me WHY?
> 
> Supposedly gay marriage is eroding the institution
> of marriage.
> And apparently this is such an obvious truth that no
> explanation
> needs to be given.  Alas, I just don't get it.

I think I may have an explanation.  Emphasis on "may".

1. Being conservatives, they've blinded themselves to
the changes that have been going on, or at least
dismissed them.  To their judgement, marriage is still
the preferred way for a mother and a father to bond
together so they can raise the next generation of
humans.  To an extent, they're right: marriage has not
yet been totally discredited; this is, in fact, why
some gay marriages are proposed (to aid the two
parents in bonding so they may better raise adopted
children).  This is leaving aside any debate over
whether marriage is any guarantee or even the best way
towards this end, although it is the case that the
majority of people raised by a mother and a father are
not fundamentally screwed up.  They think that any
change to marriage runs the risk of devaluing it...but
again, they argue from ignorance of the significant
(or at least, of the significance of the) changes that
have been happening.

2. Some conservatives, mostly male, believe that
marriage is a socially condoned method of relegating
women to their role as child bearers and raisers, *and
that this is a good thing*.  We, of course, almost
instinctively stand against such oppression of liberty
and free choice, especially with reproductive
technology either on the horizon or already here that
would obviate the biological basis for this.  But
there are those who fundamentally disagree with us on
this.  Gay marriage, of course, makes a complete
mockery of their point of view here; they may thus
perceive an insult along with an attack on their point
of view, in a matter in which they are not in truth
directly involved in.

3. And, of course, there's the "no civil rights for
gays" crowd, who jump at the chance to write their
homophobia into law.  Some of them try to rationalize
it (especially by the above), but others think that
cruelty and oppression towards anyone definable as an
"other" is inherently justified.  They are, of course,
provably wrong and perpetuating what most of us would
call "evil" without hesitation, but that is what they
believe.


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 20:17:48 2004
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:17:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <c1nvh5$1904$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040227201748.28182.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com>



Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
Social conservatives all over are up in arms against gay marriage.
I realize I'm probably asking the wrong audience here, but can
somebody explain to me WHY?


*It's an evil plan by the Republicans led by the NeoCon fascists to distract the American public from those issues that ARE important like the economy, foreign policy, etc. It's no accident that they timed this so close to the presidential election. They are hoping to capitalize on the vast number of homophobes amongst the poorly literate to increase their election returns come November. It's Bush reaching out to the hick's (his core constituents) to put him back into office. It's also a distraction in the sense that now the Democrats are going to waste precious, time, money, and energy fighting tooth and nail for a "non-issue".    


Supposedly gay marriage is eroding the institution of marriage.
And apparently this is such an obvious truth that no explanation
needs to be given.

* The Americans that this propaganda is aimed at are the ones that need no more obvious truth than that the bible says that homosexuality is wrong. This is simply once again a case of the fiscal neoconservatives (read: scheming corporate elite) exploiting the social conservatives (read: poor/naive/ignorant bible belters). The utter hypocrisy of the Republican position on this is evident by the fact that the bible also says that fornication (sex outside of wedlock) is wrong. So if gays are going to be having sex anyways, isn't it less wrong for them to be doing it while married to each other? Of course this is a line of argument I am sure the Republicans-NeoCons don't want the masses of middle America to hear since they, as usual of late, are banking on the ignorance of the people.

It's kind of sad because I used have quite a bit more respect for Republicans and conservatives in general until their leadership started thinking that because they were wealthier than I was, that somehow gave them the right to insult my intelligence everytime they opened their mouths.

 

 


Sorry for the rant.

 


The Avantguardian 


"He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."

---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 27 20:27:54 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 12:27:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <20040227201748.28182.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040227202754.6864.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com>

--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> *It's an evil plan by the Republicans led by the
> NeoCon fascists to distract the American public from
> those issues that ARE important like the economy,
> foreign policy, etc. It's no accident that they
> timed this so close to the presidential election.

Sorry, but the facts show they didn't time this.
This is a reaction to something that was done without
their prior knowledge.

Besides, if they did time it, wouldn't it make sense
to do so in September or October?  As it is, come
election time, the issue will have died down.


From bret at bonfireproductions.com  Fri Feb 27 21:07:48 2004
From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:07:48 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Earthlink ? 
In-Reply-To: <191690-22004252716143818@M2W097.mail2web.com>
References: <191690-22004252716143818@M2W097.mail2web.com>
Message-ID: <FF131F17-6968-11D8-98F6-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com>



They "pulled a fast one" when I switched my business's hosting over to 
them,
causing me to switch providers the day after we activated our account.

Very frustrating! I won't go near them, and you should run the other 
way!

Cheers,

Bret Kulakovich


On Feb 27, 2004, at 11:01 AM, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote:

> For the past month, I have been having terrible problems with my email 
> -
> not receiving it in a timly fashion, not knowing if my mail gets out, 
> etc.
> I've been with Earthlink for years and am one of those people who has 
> so
> much on my plate that changing accounts is a real drag.
>
> Yes, okay, so find another way to deliver and receive email. Right.  
> We are
> still adapting to our new location and getting all the proper 21st 
> century
> "stuff."
>
> Anyway, earthlink says their problem dates back to 1/22/04.  That's 
> over a
> month.
>
> Am I the only fool still using earthlink?
>
> Natasha
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>



From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Fri Feb 27 22:05:32 2004
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:05:32 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Earthlink ? 
In-Reply-To: <FF131F17-6968-11D8-98F6-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com>
References: <191690-22004252716143818@M2W097.mail2web.com>
	<FF131F17-6968-11D8-98F6-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0402271700070.-219443@pentium.mb.main.nc.us>


The last Earthlink member I dealt with had his Earthlink spamblocker
set to refuse all emails except from those addresses he'd listed. I
was *replying* to an email of his, but I had to go first to
Earthlink's "prove you are a human" page and decipher a word in a jpeg
and then I had to go ahead and send my mail, hoping he would check his
"junk mail" before it got deleted. I never heard from him, so he's off
my list of correspondents. :p

If I had Earthlink I'd be checking my settings very carefully to see
what I might be filtering out inadvertantly.

Remember, AOL did something similar and caused untold trouble for this
list!

Regards,
MB



> On Feb 27, 2004, at 11:01 AM, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote:
>
> > Am I the only fool still using earthlink?
> >
>


From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 27 22:32:32 2004
From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:32:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <20040227202754.6864.qmail@web80401.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040227223232.7030.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com>



Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
--- The Avantguardian 
wrote:
> *It's an evil plan by the Republicans led by the
> NeoCon fascists to distract the American public from
> those issues that ARE important like the economy,
> foreign policy, etc. It's no accident that they
> timed this so close to the presidential election.

 Sorry, but the facts show they didn't time this.
This is a reaction to something that was done without
their prior knowledge.

* I didn't mean that they timed it in the sense that it was premeditated, I mean they timed it in the sense that the Democrats had slipped up and they were exploiting it. The way a boxer would wait for his opponent to let his guard drop in order to punch him.


Besides, if they did time it, wouldn't it make sense
to do so in September or October? As it is, come
election time, the issue will have died down.

* Yes the issue will have died down but, win or lose over gay marriage, the Dems would have wasted all their precious campaign money fighting the battle. It is a form of economical attrition warfare in the political arena. Remember Bush has more campaign funding then all his opponents combined. He can afford to throw money at an issue that he doesn't have any real stake in. Whereas, since the homosexuals are part of the Dems constituency, they have no choice but to fight this battle. It's like in chess, he's putting the Dems in check with a pawn so that in order to defend against it they will have to give up their bishop. This wouldn't be so bad except that democrats don't have much more than a bishop and a few knights while the republicans still have most of their pieces in their war chest. Attrition always favors the side that has more.

   
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The Avantguardian 


"He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind."

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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Fri Feb 27 23:21:58 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:21:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <20040227223232.7030.qmail@web60502.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040227232158.2310.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com>

--- The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
wrote:
> Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- The Avantguardian 
> wrote:
> > *It's an evil plan by the Republicans led by the
> > NeoCon fascists to distract the American public
> from
> > those issues that ARE important like the economy,
> > foreign policy, etc. It's no accident that they
> > timed this so close to the presidential election.
> 
>  Sorry, but the facts show they didn't time this.
> This is a reaction to something that was done
> without
> their prior knowledge.
> 
> * I didn't mean that they timed it in the sense that
> it was premeditated,

You said, "It's no accident that they timed this so
close to the presidential election."  The only logical
reading of that is that you meant premeditated - that
they could control when it would happen.

If you meant something else, I would advise you to be
more careful with your words in the future, for if
this is the case, then you did not say what you meant.

> I mean they timed it in the
> sense that the Democrats had slipped up and they
> were exploiting it.

It ain't the Democratic Party that is primarily
fighting this.  It's San Francisco, the city
(specifically, its government).  Certain Democrats may
cheerlead or even oppose, but the party as a whole
need not spend major resources on this - resources
which can be saved for the Presidental campaign.

> The way a boxer would wait for
> his opponent to let his guard drop in order to punch
> him.

Flawed analogy.  They can "time" their own reaction in
this sense, but not the original event.  By analogy,
the boxer would have timed his punch to happen just
before the bell to draw out the crowd's
excitement...but that assumes the boxer can somehow
make his opponent drop his guard at the corresponding
time.  Otherwise, it's just a reaction to the event,
not control over the original event.


From fortean1 at mindspring.com  Fri Feb 27 23:51:03 2004
From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:51:03 -0700
Subject: [extropy-chat] Witches Hole and the Bermuda Triangle
Message-ID: <403FD7E7.954EF6E9@mindspring.com>

Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss.

Science Frontiers, No. 152, Mar-Apr, 2004, p. 3
< http://www.science-frontiers.com >

GEOLOGY

Witches Hole and the Bermuda Triangle

Witches Hole is a huge crater on the floor of the North Sea.  At its center
lies a sunken ship.  Witches Hole is not a meteor crater but rather the
crater left by a massive methane gas blowout.  A reasonable question asks
whether that ship in the center of the hole foundered when a huge bubble
of methane---a so-called "blowout"---enveloped it, or perhaps the vessel
sank in the low-density froth of a myriad of small methane bubbles.

Some studies by D.A. May and J.J. Monaghan suggest that giant methane burps
can indeed sink large ships.  They write:

   When the radius of a large bubble is comparable to or greater than
   the length of a ship's hull, we found both experimentally and via
   numerical simulations that it is possible for the bubble to cause
   the ship to sink.  Sinking arises because a mound of water is
   raised above the region where the bubble reaches the surface.  The
   deep trough on each side of the mound, and the flow from the mound
   can carry a boat into the trough.

(May, D.A., and Monaghan, J.J.; "Can a Single Bubble Sink a Ship?" *American
Journal of Physics*, 71:842, 2003)

Comments.  The danger of large methane releases on shipping due to loss of
buoyancy was recognized at least as far back as 1982. (SF#25) Today,
scientists are concerned that global releases of methane (a potent
greenhouse gas) from the gigantic deposits of methane hydrate along many
coastlines may have caused climate changes in the past and may do so again
in the future.

We should not ignore the fact that large areas of the sea floor in the
Bermuda Triangle are rich in methane hydrate!  Not only are ocean vessels
susceptible to methane burps but even aircraft flying through a major
methane release might be adversely affected.


[Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of scientific
anomalies in the current literature.  Published by the Sourcebook Project,
P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057.  Annual subscription: $8.00.]


-- 
"Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice


Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com >
     Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com >
Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html >
Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB *
      U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program
------------
Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List
   TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Vietnam veterans,
Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]


From naddy at mips.inka.de  Sat Feb 28 01:25:56 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 01:25:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
References: <c1nvh5$1904$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
	<20040227201748.28182.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <c1oqn4$1m8p$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:

> *It's an evil plan by the Republicans led by the NeoCon fascists to
> distract the American public from those issues that ARE important like
> the economy, foreign policy, etc.

Uh, I'm not talking about the American public in particular.  This
is also an issue elsewhere.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sat Feb 28 05:56:34 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 00:56:34 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402270525050.8152-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <006701c3fdbf$a06636e0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Robert J. Bradbury wrote,
> You are correct in that I have never had any extensive 
> experience with identical twins.  I have however reviewed a 
> fair amount of the literature regarding such features as IQ 
> and aging between siblings, non-identical twins and identical 
> twins where the genetic component comes out at 50-60%.

Genetic component of what?  IQ and aging have very little to do with
recovering someone's identity or personality.  There are millions of people
the same age or the same IQ.

Your theories about twins just don't match reality.  I doubt any recovery
procedure for me that would claim reproducing my twin brother was a 50-60%
accurate reconstruction of me.

I have no idea what you think you are recovering if it contains no memories,
experiences or data of any kind.  What exact personality traits do you think
are genetic enough to reproduce from DNA?  I would be very interested in
specific details and specific references to any literature claiming that
twins are similar personalities.  This just doesn't match any experience or
research I have seen with twins.

> I would disagree.  My sum-total knowledge dictates what I do. 
> The question is can one backtrack from what I do to who I am? 
> If I lose a chess game I can backtrack through a number of 
> moves until I reach the point where I understand where I made 
> a mistake. How is this any different from backtracking the 
> fact that I took my brothers to Club Med in Cancun many years 
> ago?  Why did I do that?  There are only a limited number of 
> answers.  A reasonable data-mining exercise should reveal my 
> motivations.

This is silly.  You think you did that because of some genetic component, or
even some mental component?  What if they asked you, and it had nothing to
do with your personality?  I really can't fathom the claim of reproducing
personality data from itinerary and credit card receipts.  I don't think a
visit to Club Med can help define your personality in any way.  What if you
were looking for someone there?  What if you hoped to get a job contact?
What if you were a reporter doing an expose story?  What if you had a sexual
interest in someone who was there?  What if you were just giving a friend a
ride there?  There are so many unrelated reasons that could lead to a visit,
that I don't think any personality trait is recoverable from such a factoid.

> Harvey, I have no problem with the fact that people are 
> non-deterministic. There is too much random activity in the 
> cortext IMO for determinism to be the primary case.  But I 
> would disagree that genetic profiles do not determine 
> motivations, feelings, etc. -- they are most probably not 
> single gene cases.  I recently posted a reference to oxytocin 
> and vasopressin are the key determinants to feeling "in 
> love". More probably there may be 5 to 10 genes operating in 
> a specific disease, perspective, etc.  This explains why 
> psychologists have such a hard time detecting connections.

When you start predicting when people will fall in love or who they will
fall in love with, I might start taking you seriously.  But how can this be
genetic?  Why don't twins fall in love with the same person?  Or at the same
time?  How can identical twins have different sexual orientations?  Having
the DNA simply can't predict personality.  Worse, twins with the same DNA
who grow up in the same house, go to the same school, take the same classes,
have the same circle of friends, etc.  They would have no difference in
their first decade of life that you can reproduce from records.  Yet the are
two separate people.  How can you recover either of them separately?  You
can't.  You simply can't do it.
  
> Without a very large statistical population and knowledge of 
> what genetic variants to study it is very difficult to draw 
> meaningful conclusions. There will be variations between 
> siblings.  Even within identical twins there may be 
> epigenetic factors contributing to differences. On top of 
> that there are experiences contributing to the differences. 
> But I would dispute the point that genetics is not laying a 
> strong foundation for "who I am?".

I don't understand the difference between all these differences you concede
and your basic question of "who I am?"  If you recover me supposedly, but
miss all those differences, I wouldn't consider it to be a very accurate
copy.

Can you define what you claim to be recoverable, what you claim is "who I
am?", and what you claim is variation between siblings?  I don't think we
can possibly be talking about the same things, given your claims and
theories.

> And that does not really go to the issue of whether 
> sufficient knowledge of how actions driven by mental 
> knowledge/state (say data-mining the behavior of 100 million 
> humans with complete genomic information and understanding) 
> can not allow one to derive Robert-B from Robert-A.
> 
> Another way of looking at this problem is "How do you know 
> this message is being posted by Robert-A and not by Robert-B?".

I have no idea what you are talking about with Robert-A and Robert-B.  If
you try to recover one with reconstruction and end up with the other, I
would not consider this to be a viable recovery method.  Similarly, if you
try to recreate me in the future, and end up with a person more like my twin
brother, I would not feel this is a copy of me at all.  If the variation
would allow you to reproduce dozens of different human beings, all similar
enough to be siblings of mine, I still would not consider any of them to be
similar to me.

Are you talking about reviving specific people in the future, such as Sasha?
Or are you talking about creating offspring with slight similarities due to
genetic and personality traits?  I still don't believe recreation is
possible without memory, experiences and psychological data.  Recreating
physical appearance, DNA, and a lot of specific events just won't do it for
me.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 






From extropy at unreasonable.com  Sat Feb 28 06:17:13 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 01:17:13 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <c1nvh5$1904$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <p05100300bc650e60eee7@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040228005110.026a6da0@mail.comcast.net>

At 05:41 PM 2/27/2004 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

>Social conservatives all over are up in arms against gay marriage.
>I realize I'm probably asking the wrong audience here, but can
>somebody explain to me WHY?

Orson Scott Card has a biweekly column wherein he expounds on whatever's 
concerning him that week, usually a current issue in politics or society. 
Card is a best-selling, award-winning, sf and fantasy writer, a Mormon 
Sunday School teacher, and a conservative Democrat, living in North Carolina.

Where I agree with him, I find he articulates my thoughts more effectively 
than I can. Where I disagree, the columns are still a joy to read. When I 
discovered them, I found it worth going back and reading his archives, in 
chronological order.

He recently presented his case against gay marriage in

http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

I'm writing up my own views on the issue for an op-ed piece.


-- David Lubkin.




From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Feb 28 06:43:56 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:43:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040228005110.026a6da0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20040228064356.13247.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> Where I agree with him, I find he articulates my
> thoughts more effectively 
> than I can. Where I disagree, the columns are still
> a joy to read. When I 
> discovered them, I found it worth going back and
> reading his archives, in 
> chronological order.
> 
> He recently presented his case against gay marriage
> in
> 
>
http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

Hmm.  Interesting quote:

> We will once again be performing a potentially
> devastating social experiment on ourselves without
> any attempt to predict the consequences and find out
> if the American people actually want them.

So...what, don't perform any experiment until it's
proven safe?  As in, the grand American "experiment"
(which it was, technically, in part, from 1776 on) is
to be shut down because it runs afoul of the
precautionary principle?  (As a matter of fact, the
social "experiment" being conducted here is a
consequence of the law, which is at least some sort of
reflection of the will of the voters.  This has been a
standard way to make sure that government actions,
including social experiments, aren't too far away from
what the government wants, and it's mostly worked for
the past two centuries.)

One seemingly logical conclusion of that is that, in
the strictest nationalistic sense, to follow the
precautionary principle is unamerican.


From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 28 06:54:06 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:54:06 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040228005110.026a6da0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <000001c3fdc7$a90bfc00$6401a8c0@SHELLY>

 
> At 05:41 PM 2/27/2004 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> 
> >Social conservatives all over are up in arms against gay marriage.
> >I realize I'm probably asking the wrong audience here, but can
> >somebody explain to me WHY?

There are some even more interesting questions, such
as what will become of those marriages performed in
February in San Francisco.  There were thousands of
gay weddings, but ordinarily in a city that size there
are hundreds of male-female marriage licenses issued
each month.  Do these now have a check box somewhere 
on them that specifies if the groom is male and the
bride female?  When I applied for my own marriage
license twenty years ago, no one asked me to prove
that I was male, no one asked my wife to prove that
she was female.  My cousin was born ambiguous gender,
raised male.  (S)he married an unambiguous female
22 years ago, no one asked to see his privates.  He
eventually divorced and married another ambiguous
gender raised female, and no one asked to examine
her genitals at that time either.

So what if some constitutional amendment comes into
being which requires marriage to be between a male
and a female?  Would everyone be required to prove
their gender?  And if so, exactly what constitutes 
proof of gender?  Who makes the call?

spike



From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 12:38:05 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 04:38:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <c1oqn4$1m8p$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040228123805.47979.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > *It's an evil plan by the Republicans led by the NeoCon fascists to
> > distract the American public from those issues that ARE important
> like
> > the economy, foreign policy, etc.
> 
> Uh, I'm not talking about the American public in particular.  This
> is also an issue elsewhere.

The good thing about the moon effort is that it isn't something the
Amerika haters can easily come up with a story line about that isn't so
obviously ludicrous, like the title of this thread.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
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From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sat Feb 28 12:59:20 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 04:59:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <006701c3fdbf$a06636e0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402280415300.6762-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


Ok, lets start over.  If I recall this thread started
with the concept of moving someone backward in time.

I shifted it to examine the question of whether or not
one could recreate a person (this gets into the whole
Tipler resurrection perspective which I really don't
want to get into).

Let us change the terminology so we say there is a "Robert-O"
(original) that is the real me.  Let us say that in the future
a combination of genetic records, lifestyle records,
autobiographies, diaries, etc. allow the partial recreation
of Robert-O.  Let is call this "Robert-R".

The basic point I was trying to get at was how much
information does one need such that "Robert-R" is
functionally equivalent to "Robert-O".

So for example, I have met Amara only once in my life.
On the other hand I have met Spike many times.  So Spike-R
has to be a bit more accurate than Amara-R for me to
say "Ok, that effectively is Spike".  Spike-R has to
have a strange sense of humor, has to like working on
and riding motorcycles and be a very clever engineer.
Amara-R has to enjoy discussions about aspects of astronomy
and get really annoyed when the rockets her instruments are
on don't function properly.  (There are obviously more
aspects of both Amara and Spike I'm leaving out to be brief.)

Now where this gets sticky is whether the Spike-R or the
Amara-R life vectors would be quite similar to the Spike-O
and Amara-O life vectors.  The reason that I throw genes
into the mix is that without them I don't think you can
get the ...-R's close enough to the ...-O's to keep the
vectors on similar paths for very long.

The question in my mind *is not* whether Harvey-O would be
convinced that Harvey-R is identical.  It is whether or
not I reading the extropians list or encountering you
in person would be able to distinguish between the -O and
the -R.  And somewhat more importantly -- if Harvey-O
suddenly vanished from the face of the Earth could
Harvey-R effectively replace him?  One doesn't have to
have the entire experiential memory of the -O.  I do
not spend my time telling all of the stories of my days
in junior high school -- I can't even remember most of
my days in junior high school.  So the question evolves
into whether "If it looks like a duck, walks like a
duck and quacks like a duck -- is it indeed (effectively)
a duck?"

It is my opinion that there may be enough information
about Robert-O around that Robert-R might be able to
function as an equivalent.  Obviously one gets down
to various degrees of knowledge one has about a person.
The knowledge framework about me with respect to people
I grew up with (brothers, school friends, etc.) tends
to be very out of date.  So they would be unable to
distinguish Robert-R from Robert-O provided most of
the personality traits are reasonably accurate.  Most
extropians who read the list would know much more about
my current perspective than they would (and of course
such information would be available when producing
Robert-R).

Why is this an interesting topic to discuss?  Because
it relates to the question of "How much of a person
is required to really have that person?" which in turn
relates to how much oneself can be recovered after one
has a stroke or goes through cryonic suspension
and reanimation?

Robert




From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 13:16:56 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 05:16:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <403F1DE3.2080704@mail.tele.dk>
Message-ID: <20040228131656.55318.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Max M <maxm at mail.tele.dk> wrote:
> Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
> 
> > Doesn't handle the reassembly of a human problem which seems
> > to be discussed in the recent "Time Travel" thread.  But
> > does raise the question of how much information about what
> > a person viewed, liked, did, genes (as Spike pointed out)
> > does one need before one gets something close enough to
> > the original that the differences don't matter?  For
> > example -- how much of my mind is based on movies I
> > have seen, on talk shows I have listened to, on books
> > I have read, etc.?
> 
> 
> I don't think you can recreate a person that way.
> 
> When I think back on what has changed/shaped me I allways come to
> think some resonating ideas/experiences.
> 
> Meaning that a few things has stuck in my mind, and made a serious 
> impact on how I have percieved the world from then on.

Coming out of a transport with the same attitudes is only one part of
the problem. "near enough to make no difference" could be as much as
eliminating all differences which would alter the individuals future or
possible futures as well. An increased risk of cancer from incompletely
reassembled DNA in some cells, for example, would result in a
significantly changed future for an individual.

Increasing risk of cancer by 1% each trip is a significant risk for a
regular traveller.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 13:28:50 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 05:28:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Live from the Free State
Message-ID: <20040228132850.87142.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com>

LPNH Convention:
In conjunction with the Free State Project Winter Fest in Danbury, NH,
the LPNH is having a second Convention at the Winterfest site at the
Danbury Inn to vote to confirm the changes to the Party Constitution
made at the November Convention, namely:
a) setting a minimum membership period before a member can be elected
to the executive committee (to protect the party against Buchanan-like
takeovers),
b) to allow non-NH-residents to join the LPNH and support it
financially, and allowing them to vote at our conventions the day they
arrive in-state to establish residency.
(So, those who do not forsee moving to NH but want to support the
project can join the LPNH and support it from their present location.
See http//www.lpnh.org for more details about joining and donating.)
WMUR television and AP reporters will be attending and reporting on
location.


FSP Winter Festival
Ongoing this weekend in Danbury, it has been an opportunity for
porcupines to visit the state, enjoy some NH recreational activities,
meet with leaders in the state movement, and be involved in the forming
of the Free Town Project, which will concentrate 200-300 porcupines in
the neighboring town of Grafton over the next year to create a
libertarian majority and serve as a test bed for local-level
libertarian policies.
We've been scouting properties for development, learning about the town
government from town residents, and getting to know this area of the
state much better.

Free Town Land Development:
As interim chairman of the board of the FTLD Group, I'll be hosting a
board meeting at the Danbury Inn at 3 pm today to discuss properties
under consideration and possible development proposals.

=====
Mike Lorrey
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
"Fascists are objectively pro-pacifist..."
                                       - Mike Lorrey
Do not label me, I am an ism of one...
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
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From naddy at mips.inka.de  Sat Feb 28 15:22:11 2004
From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 15:22:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
References: <p05100300bc650e60eee7@[150.146.134.133]>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040228005110.026a6da0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <c1qbn3$2ang$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>

David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:

> [Orson Scott Card] recently presented his case against gay marriage in
> 
> http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

If I had to grade this, it wouldn't fare well.

The first half or so looks like an attempt by somebody with a deep
emotional investment against gay marriage to somehow justify this
position.

He manages to push a wrong button early on when he complains about
the semantic change in the word "marriage".  Well, calling this
computer peripheral under my hand a "mouse" is a much greater
semantic extension, but I don't see anybody advocating against it.
Words gain extensions in meaning, new metaphorical senses, lose old
semantics, and shift to new ones all the time.  Card knows and
personally employs this, he is a professional writer after all.  So
why does he spew this linguistic nonsense?

A large section follows that is concerned with the virtues, problems,
etc of child raising in the context of heterosexual marriage.  You
may agree or disagree, but what does the hardship of divorce have
to do with homosexual marriage?  Entirely irrelevant to the subject
at hand.

The "Propaganda Mill" shows somebody who has at the very least
witnessed strong homophobia and is now horribly afraid of being
treated in the same manner.  Not that I can see why this should be
a plausible scenario.  Your Freudian psychologist would immediately
diagnose this as an acute case of guilt over one's own rampant
homophobia, but I don't subscribe to that silliness.  (However, I'm
rhetorically nasty enough to mention it here.)

Around this part of the essay we also encounter the single actual
argument contained in the whole text:  Legalizing gay marriage would
encourage young people to turn homosexual.  Assuming for the sake
of argument that this is actually a bad thing, I'm afraid it doesn't
agree with what I have heard on the matter.

The rest of the essay then devolves into a nationalist rant and an
interpretation of democracy that asks for a tyranny of the majority--
you would think a Mormon had a finer understanding of what a minority
can be subjected to at the hands of a fanatic majority.

In summary, I find Card's essay intellectually dishonest, off topic,
and short of reasoned argument, and I'm sorry I spent the time
reading it.


What I find increasingly disturbing is how badly the socio-conservative
ramblings fail to impress me considering that I have *zero* investment
in gay rights issues.  Now that I think about it, I don't think I
even have any homosexuals among my acquaintances.  (Not that I make
it my business to know everybody's sexual orientation.)  If anybody
wants to argue against homosexuals, I should be an easy target.

-- 
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber                          naddy at mips.inka.de


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 15:38:49 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 07:38:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <c1qbn3$2ang$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
Message-ID: <20040228153849.99738.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Christian Weisgerber <naddy at mips.inka.de> wrote:
> David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> 
> > [Orson Scott Card] recently presented his case against gay marriage
> in
> > 
> > http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html
> 
> If I had to grade this, it wouldn't fare well.
> 
> The first half or so looks like an attempt by somebody with a deep
> emotional investment against gay marriage to somehow justify this
> position.
> 
> He manages to push a wrong button early on when he complains about
> the semantic change in the word "marriage".  Well, calling this
> computer peripheral under my hand a "mouse" is a much greater
> semantic extension, but I don't see anybody advocating against it.
> Words gain extensions in meaning, new metaphorical senses, lose old
> semantics, and shift to new ones all the time.  Card knows and
> personally employs this, he is a professional writer after all.  So
> why does he spew this linguistic nonsense?

Specifically because law is not literature. You are entirely wrong when
it comes to law in this regard. Incrementalists that strip our
individual liberties do like to use this strategy, of inventing new
definitions for legal terms of art in order to create statutory
authority without even legislative action.

This is exactly what is going on with the term "marriage". The original
legal term for marriage is a legal estate partnership type used to
provide the male with property rights to the woman's womb in order to
produce "an heir and a spare" to inherity his estate. On this basis,
the NH Supreme Court recently ruled that homosexual sex by a spouse
with a third party outside marriage is not adultery, since it could not
result in conception of an illegitimate child.

While this is very obviously out of date (though considering that the
the Equal Rights Amendment never passed here in the US, that itself is
debatable, at least in a strict legal sense, irrespective of cultural
changes), the issue is one which needs to be addressed by the
legislatures of each state. 

The federal government has no constitutional authority in this, even to
the point of saying that our republican form of government would be
seriously corrupted by an amendment to the constitution which actually
limits individual liberties (this would be the first such limitation on
individual liberties in this document).

The only solution that would satisfy both sides would be to get
government out of marriage entirely. No more marriage licenses, it is
merely a private contract of partnership witnessed by your minister or
your lawyer(s). This is the libertarian solution.

=====
Mike Lorrey
Chairman, Free Town Land Development
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
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From sjvans at ameritech.net  Sat Feb 28 16:59:37 2004
From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:59:37 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <20040228153849.99738.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040228153849.99738.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1077987576.1058.20.camel@Renfield>

On Sat, 2004-02-28 at 09:38, Mike Lorrey wrote:

> The federal government has no constitutional authority in this, even to
> the point of saying that our republican form of government would be
> seriously corrupted by an amendment to the constitution which actually
> limits individual liberties (this would be the first such limitation on
> individual liberties in this document).

The first such limitation?  Depending on how you define "limitation", I
suppose.  It seems to me that:

Article II limits my right to vote for someone who is not yet 35 years
of age, or not a natural born citizen, for president

Amendment XIII removes my right to hold in captivity bound labor, a
right specifically (though indirectly) granted in Article IV, Section 2.

Article XVI deprived me of a portion of the results of my labor

Article XVII deprived me of the right to alcoholic beverages

I could go on, but you get the idea.  I see nothing unprecedented about
a constitution amendment on marriage.  Indeed, it seems to me that it
would limit the power of the various States, rather than infringe on
individual liberties.  Gay people have been getting married for
years...the amendment would limit the States from recognizing the fact.

However, I think such an amendment is ill-advised.  No, I think such and
amendment is stupid, wrong, and ultimately destructive of marriage.  But
to say that it would corrupt republican government more than any other
part of the Constitution?  I don't think so.







From charlie at antipope.org  Sat Feb 28 17:19:26 2004
From: charlie at antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:19:26 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402280415300.6762-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402280415300.6762-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org>


On 28 Feb 2004, at 12:59, Robert J. Bradbury wrote:
>
> Why is this an interesting topic to discuss?  Because
> it relates to the question of "How much of a person
> is required to really have that person?" which in turn
> relates to how much oneself can be recovered after one
> has a stroke or goes through cryonic suspension
> and reanimation?

Funnily enough, I've been speculating along similar lines myself. (The 
results are due to show up in two SF novels, "Accelerando" and 
"Glasshouse", due from Ace in 2005 and 2006.) It gets particularly 
interesting when you consider the difference between "documented" and 
"undocumented" people -- those who leave an extensive paper trail as 
against those who don't -- and then those people who've had portions of 
their life logged by tools such as MyLifeBits.

If you spend the last twenty or thirty years of your life with 
*everything* you hear or say or see or do being recorded by your PDA's 
sensor suite and indexed for your retrieval, then I reckon it'd be 
possible to create an R-you duplicate that was arbitrarily accurate for 
that particular period, with hazy memories of stuff that had occured in 
early life.

Sort of like the way we experience our life and memories. Right?

Now let's go a step further and turn the Doomsday Argument (see
http://www.anthropic-principle.com/faq.html) on its head. Rather than 
postulating the end-point of the sequence of existence as being 
*extinction*, as commonly stated in the Doomsday Argument, what happens 
if we postulate the end-point of the sequence as individual 
non-extinction? That is: we know that the boundary condition of our 
individual lives is death (non-existence).

Nick Bostrom's Simulation Argument 
(http://www.simulation-argument.com/) suggests that we are living in an 
ancestor simulation. Because we know that we are human, and not 
post-humans capable of creating such an ancestor simulation, we can use 
the Doomsday Argument to demonstrate that we are among the last humans 
living *before* the creation of the first ancestor simulations.

(I'm assuming that the end-points of existence for posthuman 
intelligences may include options less straightforward than 
old-fashioned death and consequent total loss of conscious information 
content.)

If you bolt all this together and articulate it, you find:

* We are probably/we appear to be living close to a singularity

* After this singularity, the boundary conditions of human existence 
change radically

* Ancestor simulation is one of these changes

* We are probably living in an ancestor simulation

* Our most recent memories are clearest because the technology used to 
record them matured between our current time and the singularity; our 
earlier memories are hazy and vague because they're largely 
interpolated guesswork rather than accurate simulation

Can someone please spot some holes in my reasoning before I go mad? I'm 
not sure I enjoy living in a Philip K. Dick novel ...



-- Charlie



From spike66 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 28 17:57:26 2004
From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 09:57:26 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] robot racing
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402280415300.6762-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <000001c3fe24$53b47900$6401a8c0@SHELLY>


> Robert J. Bradbury
...
> 
> So for example, I have met Amara only once in my life.
> On the other hand I have met Spike many times.  So Spike-R
> has to be a bit more accurate than Amara-R for me to
> say "Ok, that effectively is Spike".  Spike-R has to
> have a strange sense of humor, has to like working on
> and riding motorcycles and be a very clever engineer... Robert

Contraire: there are other geekmeisters like me, but 
there is only one Amara-like being on this planet.  
Robert you are too kind.  Many interesting topics are
being discussed while I am missing in action, and this
is why:  

You may have heard there is to be a robot race thru the
desert from Barstow to Las Vegas in a couple weeks.  This
is sooo waaayyy cool: few restrictions on what you can
build, but it has to be completely autonomous, no remote
controls of any kind, no overhead observers etc.  The
terrain is some of the cruelest one could find anywhere,
right thru the roughest Taxifornia desert.  DARPA is
offering a milllllion bucks to the winner, so long as
they get across the 210 mile course in 10 hours or less,
which in itself is quite a challenge.  {8-]

There is a good article about it in the March 04 issue
of Popular Science, and I am told this month's Scientific
American has an article too (my subscription ran out.)  In
any case, I want to go down and watch that if possible, or
if nothing else, go to Barstow, watch them take off, then
ride around to Vegas and see if anyone bags the cash. {8-]

A couple weeks ago, I bought another new old motorcycle:
new to me but it has gone a skerJILLION miles, and its never
been taken apart or serviced at all.  I got it for a really 
good price, started tearing her down and found a buuunch of
mechanical issues that must be resolved before Im ready to 
take her down thru the central valley.  So Ive been up to 
my fanny in grease, googling around, searching for parts 
bikes, eBaying my brains out, transferring parts from another
bike I already own that is just like it, 600 bucks later and 
Im not finished yet.  Today I get to reassemble the secondary 
gear case and hope for the best.  If all goes well, tomorrow 
evening I will be riding.  Then a couple days after that, 
vacation in Florida (bike week in Daytona!) then when I get 
back, that robot race on the 13th of March.
  
Kewwwalllll.  {8^D

Anyone else going to go that race?  That is Doug Jones the
rocket plumber's neighborhood.  Anyone heard from him in a
long time?  We aughta find him and have an extropian nanoschmooze 
at the finish line or something.  If the weather permits, I 
might take my camping gear and sleep out in the desert that 
Saturday night.  And hope a rattlesnake doesn't crawl into 
my sleeping bag.  {8^D  If you've never camped under the 
desert stars, that is a kick in itself.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.03/robot.html?pg=1

http://www.scienceblog.com/community/article2292.html

http://www.cmu.edu/cmnews/031120/031120_race.html

Is this a cool geekathon or what?  Any predictions?  Im
guessing no one will get across there in 10 hrs this year.  
We aughta put together an entry for next year.  {8^D  spike









   







From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Feb 28 18:15:15 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:15:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org>
Message-ID: <20040228181515.14351.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Charlie Stross <charlie at antipope.org> wrote:
> If you spend the last twenty or thirty years of your
> life with 
> *everything* you hear or say or see or do being
> recorded by your PDA's 
> sensor suite and indexed for your retrieval, then I
> reckon it'd be 
> possible to create an R-you duplicate that was
> arbitrarily accurate for 
> that particular period, with hazy memories of stuff
> that had occured in 
> early life.

That might be possible.  It'd certainly be a far more
accurate representation than something based solely
off external records (possibly including DNA) left
after your demise.  Practical problems:
1. The amount of memory required would far exceed what
a portable computer could carry.  Solvable by dumping
to a remote terminal every so often; at the moment,
this would have to be nearly constantly.  (Current
supercomputers might have a problem storing 20-30
years' worth of memory...but probably not in 20-30
years.  Upgrade to add capacity as you go on.)
2. If you have this sort of monitoring anyway (which
would be detectable, at least upon close observation:
you can't expect a camera to take pictures if it's
hidden in your pocket), it's not that much more
intrusive to monitor the brain directly, for an even
better approximation.  (Granted, it takes tech not yet
developed to do that...but, again, this may be doable
within 20-30 years, and the objective is for a
snapshot some 20-30 years hence.)

> Now let's go a step further and turn the Doomsday
> Argument (see
> http://www.anthropic-principle.com/faq.html) on its
> head. Rather than 
> postulating the end-point of the sequence of
> existence as being 
> *extinction*, as commonly stated in the Doomsday
> Argument, what happens 
> if we postulate the end-point of the sequence as
> individual 
> non-extinction? That is: we know that the boundary
> condition of our 
> individual lives is death (non-existence).

So, Doomsday is the death of death?

> Nick Bostrom's Simulation Argument 
> (http://www.simulation-argument.com/) suggests that
> we are living in an 
> ancestor simulation.

If and only if posthumans are likely to run very
many ancestor simulations, an argument for which I
find little foundation.  The "ancestor simluations" we
run today (Virtual Rome, et al) suggest the limits of
the information that would be obtainable by the
archaeologists who would run such, and they are of
much lower quality than fully-fleshed-out human lives.
It is true that significantly more is recorded about
daily lives today in forms likely to survive for
centuries, however, it is still not to the point that
a recreation of the level of detail we experience
could be created.  And if this were an ancestor
simulation, would it not logically include a
faithful reproduction of the level of detail
recorded?  (This is assuming, granted, that human
motivations do not change that much - which means that
the only reason to run ancestor simulations would be
for historical interest by archaeologists, which
implies a requirement of the highest accuracy
possible: archaeology is a science like any other.)

> Because we know that we are
> human, and not 
> post-humans capable of creating such an ancestor
> simulation, we can use 
> the Doomsday Argument to demonstrate that we are
> among the last humans 
> living *before* the creation of the first ancestor
> simulations.

I.e., ancestor simulations wouldn't be worthwhile if
you could just ask the still-living person?  Maybe.

But, again, depending on how you define "ancestor
simluations", we may be already running them today.

> If you bolt all this together and articulate it, you
> find:
> 
> * We are probably/we appear to be living close to a
> singularity

Shown by others.

> * After this singularity, the boundary conditions of
> human existence 
> change radically

Ditto.

> * Ancestor simulation is one of these changes

Not proven.

> * We are probably living in an ancestor simulation

Definitely not proven.

> * Our most recent memories are clearest because the
> technology used to 
> record them matured between our current time and the
> singularity; our 
> earlier memories are hazy and vague because they're
> largely 
> interpolated guesswork rather than accurate
> simulation

False on its face.  There is a demonstrated biological
reason why our most recent memories are clearest.  If
this were an ancestor simulation, our memories would
include upgrading that which we used to record our
existences, along with associated discontinuities of
memory fidelity.  And yet even those who have never
seriously recorded their existence, nor who have had
those who record their existence (government records,
et al) significantly upgrade their technology, have
this degradation of memory.


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Feb 28 18:36:59 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:36:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <20040228153849.99738.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040228183659.45141.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Mike Lorrey <mlorrey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> The only solution that would satisfy both sides
> would be to get
> government out of marriage entirely. No more
> marriage licenses, it is
> merely a private contract of partnership witnessed
> by your minister or
> your lawyer(s). This is the libertarian solution.

This, with the addendum of a "civil partners" contract
that does qualify for the government benefits (and, in
some cases, penalties) currently associated with
marriage, is what I've been saying.  Effectively, it
substitutes "civil partners" for "marriage", defining
"marriage" as a religious institution that the
government may not be involved in.


From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 18:37:28 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:37:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <1077987576.1058.20.camel@Renfield>
Message-ID: <20040228183728.16196.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com>


--- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" <sjvans at ameritech.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2004-02-28 at 09:38, Mike Lorrey wrote:
> 
> > The federal government has no constitutional authority in this,
> even to
> > the point of saying that our republican form of government would be
> > seriously corrupted by an amendment to the constitution which
> actually
> > limits individual liberties (this would be the first such
> limitation on
> > individual liberties in this document).
> 
> The first such limitation?  Depending on how you define "limitation",
> I suppose.  It seems to me that:
> 
> Article II limits my right to vote for someone who is not yet 35
> years of age, or not a natural born citizen, for president

Sorry, this is the removal of a positive right. Negative rights are the
natural rights, where the constitution says things like "congress shall
make no law" "shall not be infringed" etc.

Your right to for a martian isn't a negative right.

> 
> Amendment XIII removes my right to hold in captivity bound labor, a
> right specifically (though indirectly) granted in Article IV, Section
> 2.

XIII rectifies an earlier self contradiction in the early constitution.
If self-ownership is the core ethic, then one cannot own others.

> 
> Article XVI deprived me of a portion of the results of my labor

According to the SCOTUS: "The 16th Amendment confers no additional
powers of taxation upon the federal government." It was a clarification
that income was included in the indirect taxation power of the federal
government.

> 
> Article XVII deprived me of the right to alcoholic beverages

Struck down, but that does actually meet the criteria, slightly. It did
not deprive you of the right to alcoholic beverages directly, though,
it banned the production of alcoholic beverages, a commerce power and a
positive right. An amendment really wasn't necessary, as production,
distribution, and sale all fall under commerce clause powers, at least
so far as product is shipped across state lines, even by the most
strict interpretation of the commerce clause..

Of course, you'd have to define where the bill of rights guarantees
your right to drink... A recent 9th circuit ruling says that you have a
right to a machine gun you build entirely in your own home, that such
does not fall under the commerce power of the federal govt. This would
obviously apply to any technological product. "Home brew" is
non-regulatable, and it is for this reason the XVII was passed, to
limit your ability to brew at home even after commercial production had ceased.

=====
Mike Lorrey
Chairman, Free Town Land Development
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
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From mlorrey at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 28 18:45:14 2004
From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:45:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
In-Reply-To: <20040228064356.13247.qmail@web80406.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040228184514.86133.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Adrian Tymes <wingcat at pacbell.net> wrote:
> --- David Lubkin <extropy at unreasonable.com> wrote:
> > We will once again be performing a potentially
> > devastating social experiment on ourselves without
> > any attempt to predict the consequences and find out
> > if the American people actually want them.
> 
> So...what, don't perform any experiment until it's
> proven safe?  

Yeah, where are the social engineers yapping about Precautionary
Principles when it comes to society shattering/shifting/skewing/...
changes like this?

=====
Mike Lorrey
Chairman, Free Town Land Development
"Live Free or Die, Death is not the Worst of Evils."
                                       - Gen. John Stark
Sado-Mikeyism: http://mikeysoft.zblogger.com

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sat Feb 28 18:51:36 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 10:51:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402280415300.6762-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
Message-ID: <20040228185136.65231.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Robert J. Bradbury" <bradbury at aeiveos.com> wrote:
> The basic point I was trying to get at was how much
> information does one need such that "Robert-R" is
> functionally equivalent to "Robert-O".

Far more than is externally recorded, even with the
addition of genes.  It's questionable whether, in
fact, you'd need more than quantum mechanics would let
you obtain.


From scerir at libero.it  Sat Feb 28 21:24:44 2004
From: scerir at libero.it (scerir)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 22:24:44 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Time Travel
References: <01C3FB22.93F3E3C0.robwilkes@satx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <005b01c3fe41$81a501f0$11bc1b97@administxl09yj>

From: "Rob Wilkes"
> If there were a technology that could backtrack the "entropic" disassembly
> of human remains up to the time of death then the information could be
> captured. Is there some law of physics that precludes back-tracking
> entropy?

It depends. In microphysics, in example, you can create
"indistinguishability"
at the *end*, by erasing a single photon's path (interferometer), or at the
*beginning*, by erasing the positions of two independent sources. Notice
that in *both* cases you can (also) get entanglement (*), since entanglement
occurs by creating indistinguishabilility, in example, between two mutually
exclusive histories of, say, a photon. All that just means you can have an
effect going from the past to the future, but also you can create an effect
(here and now, by means of a simple choice) going from the future to the
past
(the so called "RPE" vs. "EPR"). Of course, human or macro issues are
different.
s.

(*) Entanglement is a magic word these days. With a simple
    operational meaning. A1 and A2 are atoms, emitting
    same kind of photons (same transition). If you put
    a 360? photon detector *exactly* in between A1 and A2,
    the detector does not know which of the two atoms
    emitted the photon. So you get the entanglement.
    Nothing special.





From reason at longevitymeme.org  Sat Feb 28 22:35:55 2004
From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:35:55 -0800
Subject: [extropy-chat] call for abolishing the bioethics council
Message-ID: <FCEDLEKFOENAIDKOGMNNGEHDEFAA.reason@longevitymeme.org>

The latest bioethics council reshuffle (to stack the deck even more in favor
of blocking the most promising modern medical research) has riled a number
of people. I think it's time to start calling for the council to be
dismantled:

http://www.longevitymeme.org/projects/abolish_the_bioethics_council.cfm

Reuters on this item:
http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=4459618&i
on=news

Chris Mooney being riled:
http://www.chriscmooney.com/blog.asp#610

---
"We now know how President Bush responds to highly publicized charges that
he's stacking scientific advisory panels: He gives his critics the finger
and stacks another one. This morning the news broke that Bush has removed
two important dissenters from the President's Council on Bioethics, one of
them being the scientist and telomere expert Elizabeth Blackburn, who just
so happens to be one of the most outspoken defenders of stem cell research
on the panel. And Bush has replaced these thinkers with people who are much
more inclined to parrot the administration's line on key issues."
---

And my suggested letter to your elected representatives:

---
Like many who look forward to a longer, healthier future of better medicine,
I am appalled by the actions of President Bush with regard to stem cell and
therapeutic cloning research. These fields provide the fundamental
technologies required for regenerative medicine that promises near term
cures for Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, nerve damage, heart disease, diabetes,
blindness, deafness and many other age-related conditions.
The President's recent action to further stack the deck in the President's
Council for Bioethics really takes the cake, however. The President has
removed two important members from the President's Council on Bioethics, one
of them being the scientist and telomere expert Elizabeth Blackburn, who
just so happens to be one of the most outspoken defenders of stem cell
research on the panel.

The Bioethics Council did not give the President the answer he wanted to
hear with its most recent report "Monitoring Stem Cell Research," despite
the overwhelming anti-research bias already present. The case for research
is just too strong, as I am sure you are aware. The number of lives that
could soon be saved is staggering, as are the costs of delay. Now the
President has demonstrated that he already knows the answer he wants to
hear, and he will brazenly go ahead to make sure that this is the answer he
receives. What happened to listening to your advisors first?

There is only one answer to this sort of behavior: the President's Council
on Bioethics must be abolished and condemned in the strongest language
possible. It is now nothing more than a rubber stamp for continuing attempts
to ban and criminalize the most promising fields of medical research. Please
represent your constituents in this matter and speak out in defense of
research, in defense of curing disease, and in defense of longer, healthier
lives.
---

This move does tend to telegraph that the Bush administration intends to
push through with bans on this research in the US and at the UN. Ugly stuff,
considering the costs ( http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000020.php ).

Reason
Founder, Longevity Meme






From extropy at unreasonable.com  Sat Feb 28 22:44:38 2004
From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:44:38 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Marriage (Was: White House...)
In-Reply-To: <c1qbn3$2ang$1@kemoauc.mips.inka.de>
References: <p05100300bc650e60eee7@[150.146.134.133]>
	<5.1.0.14.2.20040228005110.026a6da0@mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040228163303.02d88c80@mail.comcast.net>

At 03:22 PM 2/28/2004 +0000, Christian Weisgerber wrote:

>In summary, I find Card's essay intellectually dishonest, off topic,
>and short of reasoned argument, and I'm sorry I spent the time
>reading it.

Card's arguments remind me of S. I. Hayakawa essays I read recently, that 
argue the evolutionary value of monogamy and marriage. The position of 
both, and Heinlein, is that the most fundamental obligation of a society is 
to encourage and protect the cycle of creation, nurturing, and transition 
to competent adult status of children, in order to continue.

(Heinlein: "All societies are based on rules to protect pregnant women and 
young children. All else is surplusage, excrescence, adornment, luxury, or 
folly which can -- and must -- be dumped in emergency to preserve this 
prime function. As racial survival is the only universal morality, no other 
basic is possible.")

While Heinlein prefers an expansive definition of marriage, all three argue 
that marriage does and should exist primarily as a framework for the sake 
of children; any benefits to the spouses involved are incidental.

It seems to me that this role for marriage belongs in the region of 
distinction between limited-government libertarianism and 
anarcho-capitalism, along with public schools, defense, and pollution control.

An anarchist solution is that marriage is a private contract between two or 
more competent individuals. If various individuals believe that some form 
of marriage is (is not) beneficial, they are free to advocate for (against) 
it, or to provide incentives (disincentives) for those who engage in it.

(In Israel, the Jewish Agency, nominally a private organization, wants to 
encourage Jewish population growth. They provide assistance for individuals 
and families that move there and cash gifts to Jewish mothers in Israel 
upon the birth of each child.)

A consistent libertarian view, however, would be that the definition, 
mechanism, and benefits of state-sponsored marital contracts be limited to 
core commons goals, akin to limiting defense functions to direct protection 
of the national territory.

In either perspective, and perhaps for liberals and social conservatives, 
there's a benefit to offering a menu of marital contracts. One of the 
problems with the current system is that you either get married or you don't.

If you do, you've agreed to a fixed set of obligations and benefits.

If you don't, the courts will still hold you to certain obligations. Some 
-- but not all -- of the fixed marital benefits, such as medical power of 
attorney or inheritance, can be voluntarily acquired, but the process for 
doing so is unnecessarily complicated.

One benefit which cannot be acquired without marriage, which I've yet to 
hear mentioned in the national debate, is spousal privilege in criminal 
proceedings. (For an anarchist, of course, availability of spousal 
privilege would simply be a distinction between PPL offerings.)


-- David Lubkin.




From support at imminst.org  Sat Feb 28 23:56:24 2004
From: support at imminst.org (support at imminst.org)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 17:56:24 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] ImmInst Update
Message-ID: <40412aa832fc4@imminst.org>

Immortality Institute ~ For Infinite Lifespans
Mission: end the blight of involuntary death


Thank You ImmInst Members
***************
Joe Waynick, President of Alcor Life Extension Foundation,  has posted
to ImmInst that legislators "were receiving from 150-200 eMails per day" 
and that we did make a difference with our recent Action Alert. 

Arizona legislators have now decide to work with Alcor in order to 
draft a more cryonics friendly bill.  The legislation, if moved forward, 
will not likely to pass the House, Senate or Governor?s vote until 2005 
or beyond. 
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=61&t=3177


CHAT: AI & Human Immortality
***************
Ben Goertzel, CEO of Biomind LLC and Novamente LLC and and former 
founder of Webmind Inc., joins ImmInst to discuss his thoughts on the 
possibility of human physical immortality propelled by Artificial Intelligence. 

Chat Time: Sunday Feb 29 @ 8 PM EST
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=63&t=2965&s=


IF - Infinite Females
***************
Poll: Why are immortalists mostly men?
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=141&t=3183&s=

IF Chat: Sunday Feb 29 @ 6 PM EST
http://imminst.org/forum/index.php?s=&act=ST&f=141&t=3079


Support ImmInst
***************
http://imminst.org/become_imminst_fullmember



To be removed from all of our mailing lists, click here:
http://www.imminst.org/archive/mailinglists/mailinglists.php?p=mlist&rem=extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org


From robwilkes at satx.rr.com  Sun Feb 29 03:45:24 2004
From: robwilkes at satx.rr.com (Rob Wilkes)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2004 21:45:24 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Earthlink
Message-ID: <01C3FE44.2CDFC6C0.robwilkes@satx.rr.com>

Natasha,

I would recommend RoadRunner (local cable broadband) for email.  I've never 
had any problems with email since subscribing when they first set up shop 
here in San Antonio.  You also get multiple email accounts.

Rob Wilkes



From alex at ramonsky.com  Sun Feb 29 10:38:39 2004
From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:38:39 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
References: <p05100300bc650e60eee7@[150.146.134.133]>
Message-ID: <4041C12F.9020600@ramonsky.com>



Amara Graps wrote:

>
>
>
> White House To Seek Ban On Gay Sex On The Moon
>
...be a lot funnier if they wanted to make it compulsory  :  )
AR




From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 17:04:28 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 11:04:28 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: what is this?
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE63ZlpPs5Yfu00014f9a@hotmail.com>

Here is the text of a spam message I received today. I was just wondering if anyone knows what the point it? There's no attachment either:



"Are stale, There purple on money the hammering the need I quit, spring are fragrant also missing also muddy there out? 

It w o, He stale are skater he fishing with sports a brother, is trashcan school bus is coarse r m a people she uncomfortable i p on keyboard="
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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 25 15:54:42 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:54:42 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402220816571.2786-100000@server.aeiveos.com>
	<004001c3f96e$d65ddbe0$5fb71b97@administxl09yj>
Message-ID: <LAW10-OE37Va5o1ybfe00002f2d@hotmail.com>

Just some off the cuff remarks about this article. None of it surprises or
worries me.

> ? Future wars will be fought over the issue of survival rather than
> religion, ideology or national honour.

Is this a bad thing?

>
> ? Between 2010 and 2020 Europe is hardest hit by climatic change with an
> average annual temperature drop of 6F. Climate in Britain becomes colder
and
> drier as weather patterns begin to resemble Siberia.

Is this from global warming?

>
> ? Deaths from war and famine run into the millions until the planet's
> population is reduced by such an extent the Earth can cope.

Hopefully they are all religious fanatics. (That is a bit tongue in cheek.
For large scale projects and technology, a large population is necessary)
>
> ? Riots and internal conflict tear apart India, South Africa and
Indonesia.
Is this new?
>
> ? Access to water becomes a major battleground. The Nile, Danube and
Amazon
> are all mentioned as being high risk.

We have a plan for this. Let's do it!
>
> ? A 'significant drop' in the planet's ability to sustain its present
> population will become apparent over the next 20 years.
Hmmm... I have heard this before.
>
> ? Rich areas like the US and Europe would become 'virtual fortresses' to
> prevent millions of migrants from entering after being forced from land
> drowned by sea-level rise or no longer able to grow crops. Waves of
> boatpeople pose significant problems.

Don;t we need to so this anyways?
>
> ? Nuclear arms proliferation is inevitable. Japan, South Korea, and
Germany
> develop nuclear-weapons capabilities, as do Iran, Egypt and North Korea.
> Israel, China, India and Pakistan also are poised to use the bomb.

Nothing new here.
>
> ? By 2010 the US and Europe will experience a third more days with peak
> temperatures above 90F. Climate becomes an 'economic nuisance' as storms,
> droughts and hot spells create havoc for farmers.
>
Didn;t they say Europe would be colder? Which is it?

> ? More than 400m people in subtropical regions at grave risk.

They always are.
>
> ? Europe will face huge internal struggles as it copes with massive
numbers
> of migrants washing up on its shores. Immigrants from Scandinavia seek
> warmer climes to the south. Southern Europe is beleaguered by refugees
from
> hard-hit countries in Africa.

Haven;t I read this before in a history book as well?
>
> ? Mega-droughts affect the world's major breadbaskets, including America's
> Midwest, where strong winds bring soil loss.

Now we won't have so much food to subsidize!
>
> ? China's huge population and food demand make it particularly vulnerable.
> Bangladesh becomes nearly uninhabitable because of a rising sea level,
which
> contaminates the inland water supplies.

Could this mean China may become agressive? Why not let them have the moon
now so they can lob moonrocks at us really cheaply later.
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1153547,00.html
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,12374,1153530,00.html
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/globalwarming/graphic/0,7367,397048,00.html
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
>


From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 19:20:23 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:20:23 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
Message-ID: <Law10-OE17tZwgtczuN0001c498@hotmail.com>


I am so angry I can't even type a decent letter! This gay marriage thing is just as stupid as segregation! Neither side can see where they are going wrong, and the entire country is debating this as if it is actually worthy of debate!! I can;t turn on the radio without hearing how the majority of Americans are against gay marriage. This whole thing is polarizing and is only helping to create more bigotry. Would the same polls show most Americans against gay legal unions? I doubt it.



The problem is that the words "marriage" and "religion" are so intertwined, especially in the Christian faith. Marriage is a function of religion that is recognized by the state. This needs to be done away with entirely. Marriage should be completely replaced by "legal unions" for everyone. Not just gays. These should be open to anyone of legal age regardless of race, religion, color, creed, or sex. This allows the partner rights of survivorship, legal protection from having to testify against the partner, and a host of other rights that are currently denied to gays...and straight atheists like myself who refuse to get into a marriage simply because of the religious tone of the matter (even if married by a Justice of the Peace). 



In our culture, marriage is more than a legal contract, it is a religious ritual. By pressing for acceptance of gay marriage, gays are asking a bunch of people who believe what they are doing is wrong, to change their rituals for their benefit. This can;t be done unless the religion is changed from the inside!



Meanwhile, by pressing this issue, gay rights advocates are going to see an amendment banning gay marriage to come to a vote, which regardless of the outcome, will set equal rights backwards by validating the marriage ritual. 



Somehow I am not surprised though. It was just over 30 years ago when "christians" were burning black churches in Mississippi. It was 90 years ago when "christians" broke into a prison and lynched a  Texas born Jew for a murder in Georgia that he didn;t committ...just because he was a Jew. Somehow "christians" think they are so far past the Spanish Inquisitions and Salem Witch trials, yet they continue the same behavior. only using law instead of stakes to burn their victims. They will never change....they even crucified their own savior!





Anyways, I am done venting now. Thanks for listening, or at least taking the time to delete my message. 
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From kevinfreels at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 26 22:59:38 2004
From: kevinfreels at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 16:59:38 -0600
Subject: [extropy-chat] test
Message-ID: <Law10-OE56lpBQdx2v100005365@hotmail.com>



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From bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk  Sun Feb 29 16:51:12 2004
From: bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk (BillK)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 16:51:12 +0000
Subject: [extropy-chat] Live from the Free State
Message-ID: <40421880.904@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>

On Sat Feb 28, 2004 06:28 am Mike Lorrey wrote:
> FSP Winter Festival
> Ongoing this weekend in Danbury, it has been an opportunity for
> porcupines to visit the state, enjoy some NH recreational activities,
> meet with leaders in the state movement, and be involved in the
> forming of the Free Town Project, which will concentrate 200-300
> porcupines in the neighboring town of Grafton over the next year to
> create a libertarian majority and serve as a test bed for local-level
> libertarian policies.
> We've been scouting properties for development, learning about the
> town government from town residents, and getting to know this area of 
> the state much better.
>

This seems a bit, - well, odd? to me.
Would there be any objections to say, 300 Moonies, or 300 Muslims, doing
exactly the same town invasion? And if so, why do these objections not
apply to libertarians?

I'm sure I remember Mike complaining about rich townies who move to the 
countryside, then start trying to change their locality to be more like 
where they came from.

BillK




From twodeel at jornada.org  Sun Feb 29 17:26:08 2004
From: twodeel at jornada.org (Don Dartfield)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 09:26:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Live from the Free State
In-Reply-To: <40421880.904@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402290925170.11210-100000@hplx.net>

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, BillK wrote:

> I'm sure I remember Mike complaining about rich townies who move to the
> countryside, then start trying to change their locality to be more like
> where they came from.

Or, recently, about foreigners who move into the United States and then
start campaigning to change it.



From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 29 17:34:06 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:34:06 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE37Va5o1ybfe00002f2d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000501c3feea$3ecc13b0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

It's interesting that some people denounce the report as science-fiction and
fantasy, while others yawn and say there is nothing new or unexpected in the
report.  We really have radically different world-views within our
community!  (I am in the "nothing new or unexpected" camp, myself.)

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 




From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Feb 29 17:52:09 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 18:52:09 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: what is this?
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE63ZlpPs5Yfu00014f9a@hotmail.com>
References: <LAW10-OE63ZlpPs5Yfu00014f9a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20040229175209.GI1493@leitl.org>

On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 11:04:28AM -0600, Kevin Freels wrote:

> 
> "Are stale, There purple on money the hammering the need I quit, spring are fragrant also missing also muddy there out? 
> 
> It w o, He stale are skater he fishing with sports a brother, is trashcan school bus is coarse r m a people she uncomfortable i p on keyboard="

Random strings (hash busters) --> Bayesian decoys --> grammar-analysis
foiling. Think of it as evolution in action.

You say the payload is missing in the message, either it's a malfunction or
somebody's just testing latest im spam-filter stealthing.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From mbb386 at main.nc.us  Sun Feb 29 18:01:44 2004
From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:01:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: what is this?
In-Reply-To: <LAW10-OE63ZlpPs5Yfu00014f9a@hotmail.com>
References: <LAW10-OE63ZlpPs5Yfu00014f9a@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0402291300490.-245827@pentium.mb.main.nc.us>


Is there a link to click on? IIUC that kind of messed up message is a
tool to get around filters - enough reasonable words, etc.

Regards,
MB


On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Kevin Freels wrote:

> Here is the text of a spam message I received today. I was just wondering if anyone knows what the point it? There's no attachment either:
>
>
>
> "Are stale, There purple on money the hammering the need I quit, spring are fragrant also missing also muddy there out?
>
> It w o, He stale are skater he fishing with sports a brother, is trashcan school bus is coarse r m a people she uncomfortable i p on keyboard="


From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 29 18:10:42 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:10:42 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <Law10-OE17tZwgtczuN0001c498@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001301c3feef$5be18110$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Kevin Freels wrote,
> I am so angry I can't even type a decent letter! This gay marriage thing
> is just as stupid as segregation!

It is interesting that you compare this debate with the one on segregation.
I see the concept of civil unions as being "separate but equal" for gays.
Gays can't participate in the same marriage that heterosexuals can, but the
government will supposedly provide a "separate but equal" facility.  Of
course, this never works.  I don't see the president or congress fighting to
give gays spousal social security benefits, spousal legal privilege, joint
tax returns, inheritance tax exemptions, etc.  The government accounting
office has identified over 1000 laws that give special rights to married
couples that civil unions currently do not enjoy.  I doubt that this
"separate" type of civil union will ever actually be "equal".

> Neither side can see where they are
> going wrong, and the entire country is debating this as if it is actually
> worthy of debate!!

Right.  There is no debate required.  Equal rights for all.  That's what the
constitution already says, and what the courts have interpreted.  Gays
already should have equal rights.  That is why it takes a constitutional
amendment to remove equal rights for gays from the constitution, in effect
saying "Oops, we didn't really want those people to get equal rights as
well."

> The problem is that the words "marriage" and "religion" are so
intertwined,
>  especially in the Christian faith. Marriage is a function of religion
that
> is recognized by the state.

I don't believe this.  Many cultures have had marriage across all different
religious settings.  Even pagan, primitive or non-religious cultures have
had marriage or family units.  Even other species have their mating rituals
and pack-like groupings.  This is not a religious institution invented by
churches.  We know from history and evolution that it is not.

> This needs to be done away with entirely. Marriage should be completely
> replaced by "legal unions" for everyone. Not just gays. These should be
> open to anyone of legal age regardless of race, religion, color, creed,
> or sex.

I agree with this, but I would even go further.  Why have any legal union at
all?  Why not let people choose other people for any relationship they want?
Let people live with whomever they want.  Let people leave their property to
whomever they want.  Let people buy health insurance or life insurance for
whomever they want.  Let hospital patients put anybody they want on their
visitor list.  Let social security benefits get assigned to any beneficiary
the original payor chooses.  Let any group file a joint return or claim any
dependents they support.  Why should any group decide for anybody else who
qualifies and who doesn't for benefits paid for by any individual?

> In our culture, marriage is more than a legal contract, it is a
> religious ritual. By pressing for acceptance of gay marriage, gays
> are asking a bunch of people who believe what they are doing is wrong,
> to change their rituals for their benefit.

You are accepting the claim that the religions "own" the concept of marriage
and that no one else can participate without their permission.  This is
bogus.  Individuals should decide their own relationships.  The era of state
or church arranged marriages is over.

> Meanwhile, by pressing this issue, gay rights advocates are going to
> see an amendment banning gay marriage to come to a vote, which regardless
> of the outcome, will set equal rights backwards by validating the marriage
ritual. 

Strange that you blame the victims of the new legislation for its passage.
Check your sequence of dates.  It was leaked last year that the republican
strategists were planning to bring up the issue of gay marriage before the
election to make the democratic party look bad.  President Bush announced
the amendment and then the San Francisco mayor reacted, not the other way
around.  The Massachusetts court didn't invent rights for gays.  They
interpreted "equal rights for all" as including gays.  It takes a change to
the constitution to say that we want to start excluding gays from exercising
their equal rights for all.

--
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com>





From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 29 18:35:27 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:35:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <001301c3feef$5be18110$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <20040229183527.77251.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Harvey Newstrom <mail at HarveyNewstrom.com> wrote:
> Kevin Freels wrote,
> > I am so angry I can't even type a decent letter!
> This gay marriage thing
> > is just as stupid as segregation!
> 
> It is interesting that you compare this debate with
> the one on segregation.
> I see the concept of civil unions as being "separate
> but equal" for gays.

How about the followup: ...and then ban marriage
entirely, converting already existing marriages into
civil unions?  Thus, neither hetero nor homo get
government-sanctioned religious institutions. 
Anything
currently going to marriages and not to civil unions
would either have to be revised or become universally
inapplicable.

> I don't believe this.  Many cultures have had
> marriage across all different
> religious settings.  Even pagan, primitive or
> non-religious cultures have
> had marriage or family units.  Even other species
> have their mating rituals
> and pack-like groupings.  This is not a religious
> institution invented by
> churches.  We know from history and evolution that
> it is not.

Invention and ownership are not the same thing, and to
many people, religious institutions "own" marriage.

> I agree with this, but I would even go further.  Why
> have any legal union at
> all?  Why not let people choose other people for any
> relationship they want?

Government social policy.  They would prefer, for
example, that children have a stable family growing
up, and to them that means incentives for the parents
to stay together.

> Let people live with whomever they want.  Let people
> leave their property to
> whomever they want.

Already doable, if they care enough to state their
choice.  Marriage and family just cover the default
case.

> President Bush announced
> the amendment and then the San Francisco mayor
> reacted, not the other way
> around.

No, actually, it's the other way around.  Check the
newspapers.  It may have been that the Republicans
were planning to propose the amendment (for instance,
on 1/29, the Senate Family Services Committee passed
a measure by 4-3 supporting an amendment of that
nature), which prompted San Fran's mayor to act, but
the public announcement of the amendment (2/24) came
after the marriage2 (2/17).


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 29 18:36:22 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:36:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] SPAM: what is this?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.WNT.4.55.0402291300490.-245827@pentium.mb.main.nc.us>
Message-ID: <20040229183622.20010.qmail@web80411.mail.yahoo.com>

There's also the simple "ping test" mails: send an
email to an address and, if it doesn't bounce, you're
reasonable certain it's a legit address.

--- MB <mbb386 at main.nc.us> wrote:
> 
> Is there a link to click on? IIUC that kind of
> messed up message is a
> tool to get around filters - enough reasonable
> words, etc.
> 
> Regards,
> MB
> 
> 
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004, Kevin Freels wrote:
> 
> > Here is the text of a spam message I received
> today. I was just wondering if anyone knows what the
> point it? There's no attachment either:
> >
> >
> >
> > "Are stale, There purple on money the hammering
> the need I quit, spring are fragrant also missing
> also muddy there out?
> >
> > It w o, He stale are skater he fishing with sports
> a brother, is trashcan school bus is coarse r m a
> people she uncomfortable i p on keyboard="
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>
http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat



From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 29 18:38:04 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:38:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat] Live from the Free State
In-Reply-To: <40421880.904@wkidston.freeserve.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20040229183804.70855.qmail@web80409.mail.yahoo.com>

--- BillK <bill at wkidston.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat Feb 28, 2004 06:28 am Mike Lorrey wrote:
> > FSP Winter Festival
> > Ongoing this weekend in Danbury, it has been an
> opportunity for
> > porcupines to visit the state, enjoy some NH
> recreational activities,
> > meet with leaders in the state movement, and be
> involved in the
> > forming of the Free Town Project, which will
> concentrate 200-300
> > porcupines in the neighboring town of Grafton over
> the next year to
> > create a libertarian majority and serve as a test
> bed for local-level
> > libertarian policies.
> > We've been scouting properties for development,
> learning about the
> > town government from town residents, and getting
> to know this area of 
> > the state much better.
> 
> This seems a bit, - well, odd? to me.
> Would there be any objections to say, 300 Moonies,
> or 300 Muslims, doing
> exactly the same town invasion? And if so, why do
> these objections not
> apply to libertarians?
> 
> I'm sure I remember Mike complaining about rich
> townies who move to the 
> countryside, then start trying to change their
> locality to be more like 
> where they came from.

Actually, there's historical precedent for this: Utah.


From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 29 18:43:21 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:43:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
In-Reply-To: <000501c3feea$3ecc13b0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <20040229184321.74092.qmail@web80410.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Harvey Newstrom <mail at HarveyNewstrom.com> wrote:
> It's interesting that some people denounce the
> report as science-fiction and
> fantasy, while others yawn and say there is nothing
> new or unexpected in the
> report.  We really have radically different
> world-views within our
> community!  (I am in the "nothing new or unexpected"
> camp, myself.)

Some of it is sci-fi, some of it is not unexpected.
E.g., Europe having to deal with a lot of immigrants:
that's happening today.  But planetary depopulation
primarily from famine?  Earth is more likely to be
depopulated by mass emigration to off-Earth living
facilities than by famine.


From bradbury at aeiveos.com  Sun Feb 29 18:58:50 2004
From: bradbury at aeiveos.com (Robert J. Bradbury)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 10:58:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
In-Reply-To: <20040229184321.74092.qmail@web80410.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0402291055030.27287-100000@server.aeiveos.com>


On Sun, 29 Feb 2004, Adrian Tymes wrote:

> But planetary depopulation
> primarily from famine?  Earth is more likely to be
> depopulated by mass emigration to off-Earth living
> facilities than by famine.

I've lost the start of this thread in my mind -- but
the Earth is probably more likely to be depopulated
by a rogue virus or bacteria.  Nature is always
coming up with new stuff (witness SARS) and there
are some really nasty things one can do with a
biotech lab at this point.  When some government
agency runs across a CD instructing terrorists
on how to build a biotech lab (just like it now
looks as if all car bombs may be clones of the
same methods -- probably based in part on Al Queda) --
*then* you should really start to get worried.

Fortunately I think we are at least a step ahead
(for example recently finding possible solutions
to the anthrax risk).

Robert




From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 29 19:45:02 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:45:02 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
In-Reply-To: <20040229184321.74092.qmail@web80410.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002101c3fefc$863b41f0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Adrian Tymes wrote,
> Some of it is sci-fi, some of it is not unexpected.
> E.g., Europe having to deal with a lot of immigrants:
> that's happening today.  But planetary depopulation
> primarily from famine?  Earth is more likely to be depopulated by mass 
> emigration to off-Earth living facilities than by famine.

This is ludicrous.  The Hunger Project reports that 20,000 people die every
day from hunger.  Other statistics claim this is as high as 35,000 people
per day.  You really expect thousands of people to be leaving earth *per
day* in the foreseeable future?  I don't.

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 





From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com  Sun Feb 29 19:50:50 2004
From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 14:50:50 -0500
Subject: [extropy-chat] gay marriage
In-Reply-To: <20040229183527.77251.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <002201c3fefd$58de23c0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>

Adrian Tymes wrote,
> No, actually, it's the other way around.  Check the newspapers.  It 
> may have been that the Republicans were planning to propose the 
> amendment (for instance, on 1/29, the Senate Family Services Committee 
> passed a measure by 4-3 supporting an amendment of that
> nature), which prompted San Fran's mayor to act, but
> the public announcement of the amendment (2/24) came
> after the marriage2 (2/17). 

Wrong.  President Bush announced his support of such a constitutional
amendment on 1/20 during the annual State of the Union address, predating
everything you say above.  The above actions were following the President's
lead.
<http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/sotu.transcript.6/index.html>

-- 
Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC
Certified IS Security Pro, Certified IS Auditor, Certified InfoSec Manager,
NSA Certified Assessor, IBM Certified Consultant, SANS GIAC Certified GSEC
<HarveyNewstrom.com> <Newstaff.com> 






From eugen at leitl.org  Sun Feb 29 21:04:50 2004
From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 22:04:50 +0100
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
In-Reply-To: <002101c3fefc$863b41f0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
References: <20040229184321.74092.qmail@web80410.mail.yahoo.com>
	<002101c3fefc$863b41f0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <20040229210449.GK1493@leitl.org>

On Sun, Feb 29, 2004 at 02:45:02PM -0500, Harvey Newstrom wrote:

> > primarily from famine?  Earth is more likely to be depopulated by mass 
> > emigration to off-Earth living facilities than by famine.

While we have it soft, we shouldn't forget that our parents and grandparents
did witness death from war, famine and disease first-person. Given the time-travel similiarity
of geograpic travel, quite a few areas of the world are still experiencing
that first-hand.

Nowadays, death and pestilence usually tags along with war, but we shouldn't assume that
somehow, magically, we're immune to the whole of it.
 
> This is ludicrous.  The Hunger Project reports that 20,000 people die every
> day from hunger.  Other statistics claim this is as high as 35,000 people
> per day.  You really expect thousands of people to be leaving earth *per
> day* in the foreseeable future?  I don't.

Thanks for providing a reality check. The launch capacities might be there,
but there's nothing to travel to. To make it worse, no one is even doing
research on long-term stable closed-loop ecosystems for human life support.

We're not a space-travelling culture. Repeat after me: we're not a
space-travelling culture. 

We'd better learn to become one, quick.

-- Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
______________________________________________________________
ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144            http://www.leitl.org
8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A  7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE
http://moleculardevices.org         http://nanomachines.net
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From wingcat at pacbell.net  Sun Feb 29 21:45:02 2004
From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes)
Date: Sun, 29 Feb 2004 13:45:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [extropy-chat]  ex-tropical
In-Reply-To: <002101c3fefc$863b41f0$cc01a8c0@dellbert>
Message-ID: <20040229214502.17057.qmail@web80403.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Harvey Newstrom <mail at HarveyNewstrom.com> wrote:
> Adrian Tymes wrote,
> > Some of it is sci-fi, some of it is not
> unexpected.
> > E.g., Europe having to deal with a lot of
> immigrants:
> > that's happening today.  But planetary
> depopulation
> > primarily from famine?  Earth is more likely to be
> depopulated by mass 
> > emigration to off-Earth living facilities than by
> famine.
> 
> This is ludicrous.  The Hunger Project reports that
> 20,000 people die every
> day from hunger.  Other statistics claim this is as
> high as 35,000 people
> per day.

Yes, but those are largely in areas which have a high
birth rate to compensate.  Quite a lot of those
deaths are children, who were born in large quantities
in the hopes that a few of them would survive.  A few
of them do, and the cycle continues.  Net result, as
we have seen over at least the past century: stable or
increasing population, not depopulation.

Emigration, on the other hand, would probably not
cause a high birth rate to compensate.  Net result:
depopulation.

That is what I was trying to communicate.