[extropy-chat] Essay on Physical Immortality

[Technotranscendence]

On Saturday, January 03, 2004 10:44 PM Dirk Bruere dirk at neopax.com
wrote:
>> However, I disagree with you [Dirk] here
>> about the last instance.  Legislating
>> against something usually means
>> initiating force.  Once a person or a
>> group has initiated force, retaliating
>> against such is not "terrorism and
>> oppression" per se, but a just
>> response -- depending on it being
>> justly carried out.
>
> So it is legitimate to use force to
> overthrow any law you don't agree with
> in a democratic society?

Note:  I did not say all laws were unjust or un-libertarian.  However,
the imposition of legislation is usually the initiation of force.  In
such cases, it is legitimate, by libertarian standards, to retaliate.
Whether it's prudent is another matter.

To answer your question more directly -- and I'll assume you mean
"disobey" where you write "overthrow"; please let me know if that
differs from your intended meaning -- it depends on the law in question.
In the context of this debate, the particular laws you were talking
about -- and correct me if I'm misunderstanding you -- would be ones
aimed at prohibiting life extension technology.  I assumed you meant
something like parliament outlawing conventional supplements.  In that
case, I see no reason to obey the law.  Merely that one group of people
decided for all people that they can or cannot use a certain substance
to me is unjust and constitutes the initiation of force.

BTW, just to be clear here, I'm not for democracy.  When democracy
conflicts with individual liberty, then democracy must go.  I think such
conflicts will always happen in democracies -- and I include republics
under this term (I'm relying on Hoppe's analysis here; he differentiates
between no government, privately owned government, and publicly owned
government (no government means some form of anarchism (or no _monopoly_
in law making, AKA polycentric legal orders); privately owned government
means monarchy; publicly owned government means republics, conventional
democracies, and various non-monarchical dictatorships (even many extant
monarchies are really either publicly owned or a mixture of public and
private))) -- so I'm basically anti-democratic.

>> To drive this point home, imagine CPR
>> were outlawed in Ruritania.  Would not
>> the Ruritanian government be the one
>> using "terrorism and oppression" in
>> this case against people needing CPR,
>> their relatives,
>
> No.

Then you appear to be a democratic absolutist.  You see democracy as
legitimizing anything, right?  As long as one can line up enough votes,
you seem to be saying, the government can do what it will.

>> their friends, EMTs, etc.?  Or is any act
>> by a democratic government okay?
>
> In general, yes, provided one is allowed
> freedom of speech (as well as the ability
> to leave).

IIRC, Frederick the Great -- an absolute monarch, no? -- used the
slogan, "You can argue, but you must obey" -- meaning you can debate all
you want as long as you bow down and kiss the ring in the end.  (Well,
at least, this is what I got from reading Kant on one of the Prussian
leaders...)  What do you mean by "the ability to leave"?  Would that
include secession?  By that I mean the ability to no longer be under the
juridiction of a particular government -- not leaving the territory
itself.  If you agree with this, then you should see the ultimate end
state would be anarchy, since any minority or individual would be
allowed to break away from a democracy.

If you don't mean that [secession], then I think what you advocating
would be oppressive.  After all, this would be forcing people to leave
their homes because a government will otherwise trample them.  In the
context of today's world, since there are basically only democracies of
different shades and the planet is pretty much carved up by them, where
would one go?  That would be like telling someone in prison they can
have their choice of cell blocks.

Cheers!

Dan
    See "For a Free Frontier: The Case for Space Colonization" at:
http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/SpaceCol.html