[extropy-chat] Charity

[Kevin Freels]

I don't think Harvey is "boasting", I think he was just making a point. Not
only that, he was supporting the argument that a lot of people do charitable
works and was using himself as an example. I'm not sure what his religion
is, but I don't believe he is a hard-core christian, so he is also saying
that "christians arenot the only one's who do the charity thing"

But, supposing that he was boasting. So what?  Is there something wrong with
being proud of helping others? Are you that miserable that you can;t stand
to see other people happy with what they have done?


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Technotranscendence" <neptune at superlink.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Charity


> On Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:14 PM Harvey Newstrom
> mail at HarveyNewstrom.com wrote:
> >>>> Hey, good for you.  However, it seems you're using your so called
> >>>> charitable works to boast about your moral superiority, no?:)
> >>>
> >>> No.  Where did you get that idea.  I did not
> >>> bring them up.  I answered a direct question.
> >>
> >> Just a hunch.  Sometimes they're wrong, you know?:)
> >
> > You accuse me of using of boasting about my
> > moral superiority "on a hunch"???
>
> I wrote "it seems..."  I feel you're overreacting.  Maybe "hunch" was
> the wrong word.  It seemed to me that all the pieces fit.  You brought
> up your doing charitable work in the context of bashing a libertarian
> caricature.  Recall, you wrote:
>
> "You are not mistaken.  We are very active in volunteer work and spend
> huge amounts on various charities we support.  This attitude is only
> possible because we believe in our community and in helping others.  If
> I were a bitter old Libertarian clutching my gun and grumping about all
> taxes being theft, I would be so busy wallowing in my self-pity and
> victim mentality that I would not give back anything to anyone.  It is
> this very fact that I have been blessed in my life that empowers me to
> help others.  If I really felt that I had to claw and scratch out every
> single penny with no help from anyone, seeing the government and social
> institutions as enemies, I would bury all my money in the back yard and
> never help anyone."
>
> I don't know, but it sounds to me a lot like moral superiority.  You say
> it isn't and I'll take your word for -- even if you didn't respond to
> this scenario I offered:
>
> "This implies that if there were two people, X and Y, who were both
> morally identical and then X did charitable works -- say, spent time in
> the local soup kitchen dishing out food -- while Y did not, X would be
> morally superior to Y.  Do you agree with this?  Or are X and Y still
> morally equal despite X's doing some charitable work?"
>
> It looked a lot to me like you were claiming X is morally superior and
> you're X -- while Y is morally inferior and is the libertarian
> caricature.  (Yeah, you never answered me on this, so I don't know.)
>
> Had you left your libertarian caricature out of the above and the
> explicit claim that "seeing the government" as an enemy out -- in other
> words, those who don't trust the government must, by your claim, be
> uncharitable -- then I wouldn't have been led to the conclusion you were
> trying to make libertarianism and distrust of government(s) something
> morally inferior and that could never be compatible with "believ[ing] in
> [y]our community and in helping others."  (It almost seems you're saying
> community equals the government and that libertarians could never be
> part of a community.  Some would go to the other extreme, claiming only
> individualists can form true communities.  They argue force or
> submerging individuality can never found true communities.  I believe
> that simplifies things, but that's a much longer thread.:)
>
> > Your (and others') rants seem to have more to
> > do with some anti-charity libertarian worldview
> > than anything I have actually done or said.
>
> If so, prove it.  I would prefer to be enlightened than to sneer at
> those I disagree with.
>
> > I'm sorry that I wasted even this much time on
> > this thread.
>
> Had I realized you'd react in this way, I would not have posted to this
> thread -- not so much because it's a waste of time*, but because I fear
> you will wall yourself off from further discussion.  I hope you won't.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Dan
>   See "The Hills of Rendome" at:
> http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/Rendome.html
>
> *  Clarifying these issues is not a waste of time to me, though trying
> to discuss them soberly with others is probably a lost cause.  People
> get too emotional over them.  (This is not to say I don't.  I have hot
> button issues too.)
>
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