From nanogirl at halcyon.com Mon Nov 1 00:08:28 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:08:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~ References: <4160977F.8070009@imminst.org> <00ac01c4acb6$97abf1b0$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <00f401c4bfa6$ea495f90$1db71218@Nano> The Nanogirl News October 31, 2004 Reconstructing Neural Circuits in 3D, Nanometer by Nanometer. The authors' custom-designed microtome holds the tissue block in a way that ensures image alignment and maintains focus; all the while the specimen surface is positioned close enough to the objective lens to allow high-resolution imaging. Denk and Horstmann expect that with this method they might ultimately be able to cut sections thinner than the 50 nanometers that their current setup manages. This then would allow them to cut sections even thinner than what is routinely possible in conventional transmission electron microscopy. While the authors doubt that the lateral resolution will ever reach that of transmission electron microscopy, they also argue that such high resolution may not actually be needed to trace neuronal connectivity. On the other hand, the method accelerates 3D electron microscopic data collection "by several orders of magnitude" by obviating the need for the labor-intensive adjustments to correct alignment and distortion required by other methods, an advance that is crucial for large-volume neuroanatomy and might, in addition, open up many hitherto inaccessible problems to ultra-structural investigations. (Plosbiology November 04) http://www.plosbiology.org/plosonline/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pbio.0020388 The National Cancer Institute (NCI) announced today at a media briefing a new $144.3 million, five-year initiative to develop and apply nanotechnology to cancer. Nanotechnology, the development and engineering of devices so small that they are measured on a molecular scale, has already demonstrated promising results in cancer research and treatment. "Nanotechnology has the potential to radically increase our options for prevention, diagnosis, and treatment of cancer," said Andrew von Eschenbach, M.D., director of the National Cancer Institute. "NCI's commitment to this cancer initiative comes at a critical time. Nanotechnology supports and expands the scientific advances in genomics and proteomics and builds on our understanding of the molecular underpinnings of cancer. These are the pillars which will support progress in cancer." (Medicalnewstoday 10/13/04) http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=14905 CRN Announces the Wise-Nano Project. The Center for Responsible Nanotechnology (CRN) has initiated the Wise-Nano project, a collaborative online effort to study the facts and implications of advanced nanotechnology. Wise-Nano.org is a website for researchers worldwide to work together, helping to build an understanding of the technologies, their effects, and what to do about them. (PRWEB Oct 16, 2004) http://www.prweb.com/releases/2004/10/prwebxml168143.php Tumbleweeds in the Bloodstream. Molecule-size sensors inside astronauts' cells could warn of health impacts from space radiation. Wouldn't it be nice if the cells in your body would simply tell you when you're starting to get sick, long before symptoms appear? Or alert you when a tumor is growing, while it's still microscopic and harmless? The ability to detect changes inside of individual cells while those cells are still inside your body would be a boon to medicine. NASA-supported scientists are developing a technology right now that could, if it works, do exactly that. (Yubanet 10/30/04) http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_14835.shtml New Study: Nanotechnology Poised to Revolutionize Tech, Manufacturing Markets; Market Will Rival Sales Volume of Combined Tech and Telecom Markets. Sales of products incorporating nanotechnology will total $2.6 trillion in 10 years, approximately one-fifth of the current Gross Domestic Product (GDP (news - web sites)), greatly exceeding previous estimates, according to a new report released by a leading Wall Street financial analyst. Nano- enhanced products will account for 50 percent of all electronics and information technology products and 16 percent of all healthcare products by 2014, according to the report. (U.S. Newswire 10/29/04) http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=39155 It's time for an alternative fuel. The era of human development with oil and gas as energy source is nearing its end and in the next 30-40 years, there will be a 'clean break' to produce energy from renewable, non-fossil fuels, mostly from hydrogen. The rise in global temperature due to emission of green house gases will force man to seek alternatives so that life is viable on earth, M S Srinivasan, additional secretary, Union Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas, said today... 'By combining nanotechnology manipulating subatomic particles for new products and hydrogen for alternative fuel, a way can be found on how to store hydrogen and discharge into the usage system,' he said. (Regionalfare 10/30/04) http://newstodaynet.com/30oct/rf14.htm DuPont Becomes Founding Sponsor of International Council on Nanotechnology. The Center for Biological and Environmental Nanotechnology (CBEN) at Rice University in Houston, Texas, recently announced the formation of the International Council on Nanotechnology (ICON). The ICON is a collaboration among academic, industry, regulatory and non-governmental interest groups that will work to assess, communicate, and reduce potential environmental and health risks associated with nanotechnology. (A2Znano 10/29/04) http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=387 (Book) Inner Limits A novel by Frank John Ingersoll. An Eye-Opening Glimpse Into An Immediate Future. Is it possible that man might recreate himself without flaws? Medicine, Science, technology and religion are all racing towards the prize in mankind's quest to attain perfection. The novel, Inner Limits explores the possibilities that realistically, now appear to be within our grasp...Nanotechnology is creating nanomachines that are so small that 2-billion of them can fit on the point of a needle. Can they be programmed to rid a body of cancer, rebuild cartilage in a knee, help you loose weight or improve your sex life? Can Nanotechnology also be programmed to get rid of all evil or create evil? Can it overcome Satan's power over so many? Can man program over God's plan for you? (Christian Magazine Online 10/29/04) http://www.saworship.com/article-page.php?ID=1557&Page=couples.php Drug-dispensing Contact Lens Developed. Could treat eye diseases better than drops. Drug-loaded contact lenses have been developed that could treat eye conditions such as glaucoma far more effectively than drops. Usually sufferers of glaucoma and many other eye conditions are prescribed eye drops. These can mix with tears, however, and drain into the nose where they enter the bloodstream and cause side-effects. As well, drops are inconsistent and difficult to regulate. Researchers from the Institute of Bioengineering and Nanotechnology (IBN) in Singapore recognized this problem and have created a contact lens material that can deliver drug treatments directly into the eye. (Betterhumans 10/29/04) http://www.betterhumans.com/News/news.aspx?articleID=2004-10-29-3 Nanodevices target viruses. Physicists are used to detecting inanimate objects like photons and particles but two teams of researchers in the US have now turned their attention to very different targets -- viruses. Harold Craighead and colleagues at Cornell University used a nanoelectromechanical device to detect an insect baculovirus, while Charles Lieber and co-workers at Harvard University employed a nanowire field-effect transistor to detect single influenza viruses. The new methods could be scaled up for applications in medicine or the detection of biological weapons. (Physicsweb 10/8/04) http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/10/6/1 Total of $80,000 Awarded to Eight Promising Nanotechnology Ideas. QD Vision, Inc. of Cambridge, Mass., was awarded the top prize today in the first International Nanotechnology Business Idea Competition for its idea to produce the next generation of flat panel displays. The startup company received $50,000 in cash, plus business plan writing assistance and additional business advisory services."We couldn't be happier," said Greg Moeller, vice president of sales and marketing for the company. "Winning this competition is going to allow us to secure the intellectual property [behind the company's flat panel displays]."..Judges from the ranks of nanotechnology research, venture capital and business reviewed entries from 14 states and four countries. Twenty-five teams were selected to participate in a semifinal round of judging, which took place Thursday, October 28. Eight teams competed in today's finals at Case. (PR Newswire 10/29/04) http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/www/story/10-29-2004/0002317805&EDATE= UCLA Chemists Report New Nano Phenomenon: Welding in Response to an Ordinary Camera Flash. UCLA chemists report the discovery of a remarkable new nanoscale phenomenon: An ordinary camera flash causes the instantaneous welding together of nanofibers made of polyaniline, a unique synthetic polymer that can be made in either a conducting or an insulating form. The discovery, which the chemists call "flash welding," is published in the November issue of the journal Nature Materials..."I was very surprised," Kaner said. "My graduate student, Jiaxing Huang, decided to take some pictures of his polyaniline nanofibers one evening when he heard a distinct popping sound and smelled burning plastic. Jiaxing recalled a paper that we had discussed during a group meeting reporting that carbon nanotubes burned up in response to a camera flash. By adjusting the distance of the camera flash to his material, he was able to produce smooth films with no burning, making this new discovery potentially useful." (UCLA 10/28/04) http://www.newsroom.ucla.edu/page.asp?RelNum=5602 ASU Biodesign Researcher to Explore Revolutionary Gene Sequencing: Threading the Molecular Needle. A radical new method of DNA sequencing currently being explored by Stuart Lindsay, Director of the Center for Single Molecule Biophysics in the Biodesign Institute at Arizona State University and Professor of Physics at ASU, could make the long-dreamt-of era of true genetic medicine possible with extremely rapid, accurate and low cost sequencing of single DNA molecules...Lindsay's new sequencing technology involves using Atomic Force Microscopy (AFM), which is customarily used to analyze the surface structure of materials at molecular resolution with the ultra-small tip of a sensitive probe, in combination with naturally occurring ring-shaped sugar molecules called cyclodextrins. Lindsay believes that the ring molecules, when paired with the AFM probe tip, can effectively be used as sensors to "read" the sequence of amino acid code (DNA "bases") in the human genome that comprises many millions of bases. (ASU 10/29/04) http://www.asu.edu/asunews/research/lindsay_sequencing_102904.htm Researchers watch water inside nanotubes. Researchers from Drexel University, US, the University of Illinois at Chicago, US, and the Tokyo Institute of Technology in Japan have filled closed multiwalled carbon nanotubes between just 2 and 5 nm in diameter with water. The team says its work is of fundamental importance for understanding liquid behavior at the nanoscale. (nanotechweb 10/27/04) http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/3/10/19/1 UK government report warns of potential nanotechnology risks. A report by the UK's Health and Safety Executive has concluded that the safety of the tiny particles created by the emerging nanotechnology industry has not been fully assessed. (Drugresearcher 10/28/04) http://www.drugresearcher.com/news/news-ng.asp?n=55715-uk-government-report A Nanowire with a Surprise. New research may advance the nanoelectronics field. Scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's Brookhaven National Laboratory and their collaborators have discovered that a short, organic chain molecule with dimensions on the order of a nanometer (a billionth of a meter) conducts electrons in a surprising way: It regulates the electrons' speed erratically, without a predictable dependence on the length of the wire. This information may help scientists learn how to use nanowires to create components for a new class of tiny electronic circuits. (Brookhaven 10/18/04) http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/PR_display.asp?prID=04-92 Report: Nano-product sales to $2.6 trillion by 2014. Global sales of products incorporating nanoscale technologies could rise to more than $2.6 trillion in 2014, according to a new industry report. Lux Research Inc.'s "Sizing Nanotechnology's Value Chain" predicts that revenues from products incorporating nano-based approaches will total $13 billion, $8.5 billion of which lies in automotive and aerospace applications. Most are high-end uses, and the amount represents about 0.1 percent of the global manufacturing output. (Smalltimes 10/28/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?section_id=51&document_id=8403 (PDF document) Research News from the MRS Bulletin: Silica-coated SWNTs form unique nanostructures; Novel liquid-crystal phases formed with introduction of chirality; High-strength reticulated porous ceramics; Cracks in rubber propagate faster than the speed of sound; F-containing molecules serve as structure-directing agentsin synthesis of molecular sieves; Flame-spraying technique yields aluminate bulk glasses and nanoceramics; Composite polymer-carbon nanotubes function as optoelectronic memory devices (MRS October 04) http://www.mrs.org/publications/bulletin/2004/oct/oct04_researchers.pdf Taiwan on cusp of nanotech rewards. From the harvesting of rice to the harnessing of nano products, Taiwan's skill based industries are expected to utilize this new-found scientific breakthrough. Long Qiang Nano Technology Corporation and Taiwan textile Research Institute (TTRI) announced their joint venture in exploring and planning more nano-based applications yesterday in Taipei County. (The China Post 10/30/04) http://www.chinapost.com.tw/business/detail.asp?GRP=E&id=53922 Nanotech group's invitations declined. A new effort by industry leaders and others to engender public trust in nanotechnology, the young science of making invisibly small materials, has run into difficulties on the eve of its first meeting after environmental and citizen groups declined to join for now because of doubts the initiative will serve the public interest. None of the three invited representatives of environmental groups has agreed to join the newly created International Council on Nanotechnology at its inaugural meeting in Houston today. (The Smalltimes 10/28/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8401 Happy Halloween! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 00:35:33 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:35:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041101003533.41967.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> I've heard that morale in the lower levels of management is generally quite poor today because those at the top are allegedly rewarded much more than mid & lower level managers are. Do you know anything about this? Having said that, I regard the "race to the bottom", that some large companies seem to be holding, to be a danger to the world economy. The reason for this is that irresponsible exploitation and huge inequality inevitably leads to social and political tensions. Tensions that lead to crime, violence, destruction and, as an extreme, protectionism and even revolution and/or war. Unsurmountable inequality is a problem. The only good inequality is one that can be overcome by individuals that simply outperform others. IMHO inequality should act as a motivation for people to do their very best; the moment inequality becomes so big it demotivates people we have a problem. > Should there be requirements to return such wealth beyond a certain > point? IMHO, the sharing of wealth should be done only up to the point where it helps to give everybody the opportunity to be successful. I believe this includes things like basic healthcare, education and safety. Too much more than that, and people might lose the motivation to be productive. Too much less than that, and you reduce the ability of people to be productive. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Mon Nov 1 00:51:58 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 16:51:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Presidents 2005 NNI budget References: <20041101003533.41967.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <016601c4bfac$fddd85d0$1db71218@Nano> Read the "Research and Development Funding in the Presidents 2005 Budget" which currently provides a billion dollars for the NNI - National Nanotechnology Initiative. Download the PDF. http://www.ostp.gov/html/budget/2005/FY05NNI1-pager.pdf Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Nov 1 00:56:22 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS Message-ID: <418589B6.31E41C99@mindspring.com> Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss. Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2 < http://www.science-frontiers.com > BIOLOGY LIMBOIDS What, if anything, separates life from nonlife? To be alive, it is widely promulgated that such entities must metabolize, reproduce, and evolve in the Darwinian sense. It is also popularly believed that living matter is intrinsically different from nonliving matter, although one no longer speaks of "the breath of life" or of an "elan vital." Even so, knowing all we now know, there does still *seem* to be a fundamental gap between life and nonlife. Is this gap illusory or perhaps filled by entities of which we are not yet aware?? Generally speaking, there is no known profound difference between physical and biological phenomena. In nonliving entities, such as inorganic crystals, the energy ground states are deep. In living systems, entities such as proteins, are characterized by several shallow energy states. Proteins, many exist in several different conformational states with nearly the same energy levels. Life, as we know it, therefore, involves macromolecules that are more "pliable," more malleable by weak forces, such as those that might be imposed by the environment. Some proteins such as prions, may change their shapes spontaneously. Despite these possibilities of easy manipulation of macromolecules by small forces and spontaneous shape-shifting, many scientists---the reductionists--- are confident that all of biology is describable by the extant laws of physics and chemistry. So, the apparent gap we discern between living and nonliving matters seems primarily a matter of energy-well depths. This being so, the gap does *seem* to be bridgeable by reductionist science. (Stec, Boguslaw; "Living and Nonliving Matter," *Science*, 305:41, 2004.) Comments. But humans and their instruments do not observe everything. There may be an unappreciated limbo separating life from nonlife. This limbo could be occupied by entities that we'll call "limboids." Science may not yet recognize this hypothesized realm of the natural world because: (1) The limboids are too small---smaller than the controversial nonolife and still inaccessible to today's science. (2) The limboids are too large for us to grasp intellectually or instrument-wise. F. Hoyle's fictional "black cloud" would be an example. (3) The metabolisms of limboids are too slow and their lifetimes too long (millions of years) for us to discern them. In other words, they *seem* inanimate. (This potential attribute was suggested by P. Gunkel.) (4) The lifetimes of limboids may be too short for us to register them. (5) The limboids live outside the ranges of our eyes and instruments. (6) The limboids may incorporate considerable dark matter and be hard to detect. Conceivably some manifestations of dark matter could exist in recognized visible organisms and perform organizing functions that "breathe life" into inanimate matter! Scientists have not seriously looked for limboids, but they may have caught fleeting glimpses of them, and "laid them back in the closet," as Omar mused poetically. [Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual subscription: $8.00.] -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sahynepu at concentric.net Mon Nov 1 01:26:31 2004 From: sahynepu at concentric.net (Sahyinepu) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 19:26:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing as downregulators In-Reply-To: <20041031212034.2D32157E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <0F84FE78-2BA5-11D9-909A-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> On Sunday, October 31, 2004, at 03:20 PM, Hal Finney wrote: > > > Some might argue that we should give all of our wealth until we are > at the same level of the poor we have donated to. In this way, one > life is made more difficult, while many others are greatly improved. > The net happiness in the world would almost certainly be increased if > each of us adopted this policy. > > How can we turn away from this logic? Though I agree that at least one part of growing up, as an individual, is to realize that a mass grab of anything and everything is not necessary for one's being, I also don't think that one can necessarily "save" anyone from their fate. I do believe that people should have the opportunity to improve their condition, and for many in other countries, that is greatly hindered. But here in this country, we see evidence that even when great opportunity is given, some just do not want to take it, and continue to make bad decisions. We have countless scientists and medical professionals telling us we need to take care of both our environment and ourselves, and yet many ignore them, preferring to look outside of themselves for boogymen(like terrorists) to focus on. Realistically, we are probably in greater threat of having a major health crisis in the next coming years than we are of facing the threat of a dirty bomb. This is one thing I see over and over again. Be it science, government, or religion, many continue to look outside of themselves for a savior. And yet many still continue to ignore advice. We set up systems upon systems to babysit ourselves as we continue to fall deeper and deeper asleep at the wheel of our conscious minds. And then we throw fits when we realize how much our individual powers have slipped away. I find it difficult to tackle the question of how we can help others when so many here, with so much opportunity, continue to make as stupid if not even dumber mistakes than those around us. If we think we can fix anything by giving out money/creating financial security, minimum wage jobs would have all but created a utopia here....or something like that. Sah From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 1 01:29:57 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:29:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing asdownregulators In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041031120633.01ad87c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002701c4bfb2$4fea5e20$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > At 12:29 PM 10/31/2004 -0500, Rik wrote: > > >... > >IMHO, the sharing of wealth should be done only up to the > >point where it helps to give everybody the opportunity to > >be successful. I believe this includes things like basic > >healthcare, education and safety. > > > >Too much more than that, and people might lose the motivation > >to be productive. Too much less than that, and you reduce > >the ability of people to be productive. > > This sums up my own current estimate, too. Nicely expressed. > > Damien Broderick I second Damien's comment. If we still had post of the month, I would nominate Rik's post. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 1 01:34:24 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:34:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] glat test In-Reply-To: <000e01c4bf7a$e16da0b0$d0c51b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <002801c4bfb2$f14dd3f0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Whoa! Im impressed! Who is this Atkinson guy? spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 10:53 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] glat test > > > http://www-th.phys.rug.nl/~atkinson/dapubl.html > see paper # 122 (pdf) > > D. Atkinson and F.J. van Steenwijk, > 'Infinite Resistive Lattices' From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 1 02:05:08 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 18:05:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <20041031235027.63014.qmail@web81205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003a01c4bfb7$36b46950$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria > > > OK, so how many civilian dead do you reckon there > > are? > > I haven't the faintest idea. My point is, given the > published confidence interval of this study, neither > do they... > One of the many, many, many > reasons war really sucks... On a distantly related note, I went down to Monterey Taxifornia today to see a memorial to the soldiers slain in Iraq, the 1100 Americans. They had white posts with their pictures and a short description of how they perished. I noticed that *all* the deaths were included in the 1100 number, even those that died of natural causes in Iraq, the suicides, the auto accidents, the accidental shootings, the traditional fights between soldiers, etc. Looks like as many as a quarter of these deaths might as easily have happened had they stayed home. I guess suicides might be a grey area: perhaps they were called to active duty, were taken away from a shaky marriage, they got a dear John or Jane letter, shot selves in their dispair. There were cases of leukemia and cancer that were apparently unrelated to being in the military. Interesting point tho, of the soldiers slain in action, it looked like about two thirds of them were killed by crude homemade bombs. I can imagine a lot of Iraqi civilians that were killed were actually done in by these homemade bombs, from being accidentally near them when they went off or from being hoist upon their own petard when making same. Has anyone seen an estimate of these statistics? spike From riel at surriel.com Mon Nov 1 04:19:43 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:19:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing as downregulators In-Reply-To: <20041031212034.2D32157E2A@finney.org> References: <20041031212034.2D32157E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Hal Finney wrote: > One of the principles that I find useful in considering issues like > inequality and wealth sharing is to focus on the personal aspect. A tangentially unrelated tidbit that nontheless illustrates the problem: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3969693.stm It would appear that both obesity and malnutrition are near the top of the world's health problems... Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From sjvans at ameritech.net Mon Nov 1 04:38:26 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:38:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <003a01c4bfb7$36b46950$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20041101043826.48525.qmail@web81210.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > I noticed that *all* the deaths > were included in the 1100 number, even those that > died of natural causes in Iraq, the suicides, the > auto accidents, the accidental shootings, the > traditional > fights between soldiers, etc. The 1100 number is for those who are designated Killed in Action. Traditionally, the standards have been pretty liberal, and include accidents of most kinds in a combat zone, as well as most suicides, since KIA status carries much better benefits for next of kin. I understand it is not unheard of for reports to be fudged a bit if there is some question because of this (one story I've heard involves a Saigon brothel...no doubt there is more than one name with a similar story on the Wall). > Looks like as many as a > quarter of these deaths might as easily have > happened had > they stayed home. Not really. Accident rates do way up in a combat zone. For instance, it is almost impossible to get soldiers to wear seatbelts, since they (probably correctly) judge the risk of not being able to bail out quickly a greater danger than traffic accident. > I guess suicides might be a grey > area: > perhaps they were called to active duty, were taken > away from a shaky marriage, they got a dear John or > Jane letter, shot selves in their dispair. I have heard that to be considered KIA, a military psych has to investigate and rule the suicide the result of combat fatigue or something similar, but that they grasp the barest straw to make that happen, for the benefits reason stated above. > There were > cases of leukemia and cancer that were apparently > unrelated to being in the military. I would be surprised if that was included in the official KIA list. > Has anyone seen an estimate of these statistics? I don't know about Iragis, but there is a pretty good breakdown here: http://www.fcnl.org/issues/item.php?item_id=403&issue_id=35 It is a Quaker organization, so I doubt they have much incentive to minimize things. steve From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Mon Nov 1 05:17:56 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 21:17:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <20041101043826.48525.qmail@web81210.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041101043826.48525.qmail@web81210.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63D31B5C-2BC5-11D9-998F-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Oct 31, 2004, at 8:38 PM, Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > I understand it is not unheard of for reports to be > fudged a bit if there is some question because of this > (one story I've heard involves a Saigon brothel...no > doubt there is more than one name with a similar story > on the Wall). I think the US military actually keeps more detailed statistics, but most people use the aggregate statistics which causes a lot of confusion if the discussion gets technical. KIA stats usually include very substantial in-theater non-combat deaths. For example, most people have heard that there were a over 50k KIA in Viet Nam. Per the US military statistics in the National Archives, the actual combat "got-shot-or-blowed-up" deaths are just over 40k, with another 10-12k in-theater KIA that had nothing to do with actual combat. Other than diving into the National Archive statistics these deaths are very rarely separated out. In the first Gulf War, non-combat in-theater deaths were something like >50% of the total KIA IIRC. j. andrew rogers From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Nov 1 06:28:02 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 17:28:02 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing asdownregulators References: <20041031212034.2D32157E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <02a401c4bfdb$f0af9b80$b8232dcb@homepc> Hal Finney wrote: > .... How much should we feel obligated to give to help the poor? > This is the question of wealth and redistribution, applied at the > personal level, and it's a hard question indeed. > Some might argue that we should give all of our wealth until we are > at the same level of the poor we have donated to. In this way, one > life is made more difficult, while many others are greatly improved. > > The net happiness in the world would almost certainly be increased > if each of us adopted this policy. > How can we turn away from this logic? With respect its not logic. It is a castle in the air. > How can we allow people > to suffer when we each have it in our power to ease their suffering? Individually and collectively people are a part of the natural world. In history, and indeed before it, there have always been people who were not only poor relative to other people but starving in absolute terms simply because they could not get enough to eat. Parents do not as a matter of policy ensure that their is suffient food for their offspring to survive before having them. They just have them because they can. Because sex is fun and feels good and offspring are a consquence of acting naturally even if they are not a direct aim. And sex isn't just fun and pleasant for bright people or for animals that are likely to have offspring that can thrive its fun for everybody so everybody does it. Human societies didn't invent poverty or starvation or disease (though ways of living do influence the types of disease) and to some extent human societies have been in part attempts to mitigate against poverty and starvation but human societies and the ways in which humans organised themselves are works in progress. If everyone in the world was suddenly infected by a meme that caused them to want to to distribute all their wealth downwards such that there would be no one else alive less wealthy than themselves (as a matter of policy) then you would still have some impossible problems of implementation unless you did other things (ie acted on other politices as well). In practice there has never yet been the enabling technology (information and distribution systems to name just two things) and levels of enlightened(?) thinking for such a meme to become widespread. First you'd have to have a reliable worldwide census so that people could know who everyone else in the world at any given instant was in order to know who was less wealth than you. Meanwhile the poorest people are running around trying to determine who might be still poorer than them as they are inflicted with the same meme. You'd need some sort of complex system to implement species wide altruism. You can't get species wide altruism even in principle without complexity. Some information systems and distribution systems have to be global to be able to implement the species wide altruistic act. I could go on and on but I think its easy for people to get the point themselves. Immediately you'd discover its not just a problem with one prong - the lack of desire to give wealth away, its ALSO a problem of there not being a global mechanism for implementing the policy. When we look around at the state of the world (and how we don't like it) it is worth bearing in mind that we didn't make the mess collectively any more than we are responsible for it individually. Everyone is trying to deal with the stuff life throws at them and no one including the very very wealthy currently have the resources to solve all human suffering. Brett Paatsch From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Nov 1 06:47:42 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:47:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Boston Globe on Kurzweil Message-ID: <470a3c52041031224739a4ada8@mail.gmail.com> Taking proper care of the body today, Kurzweil believes, is a necessary step on the path to immortality for himself and his fellow baby boomers. In 20 years, he predicts, biotechnology will be able to block the circuits that cause disease and will radically slow aging. After that, what he calls the "full blossoming of nanotechnology" will allow us to replace the fragile and diseaseprone cells we were born with, swapping our fading neurons with nano-engineered neurons that keep our memory forever sharp. He plans to be around for both those revolutions, whenever they occur. http://www.kurzweilai.net/news/frame.html?main=news_single.html?id%3D3915 Boston Globe: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/10/31/the_futurist?mode=PF From reason at longevitymeme.org Mon Nov 1 07:44:57 2004 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 23:44:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] the Scientific Conquest of Death on Amazon In-Reply-To: <02a401c4bfdb$f0af9b80$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9875611352/qid=1099293927/sr=8 -1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0895723-0640139?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 The first book produced by the Immortality Institute ( http://www.imminst.org ) is available at Amazon.com, at the link above. More details can be found here: http://www.imminst.org/book1/ Chapter I: SCIENCE: Biomedicine, Nanotechnology and other strategies Biological Immortality - Michael Rose The War on Aging - Aubrey de Grey The Dream of Elixir Vitae - Joao de Magalh?es Therapeutic Cloning - Michael West Nanomedicine - Robert Freitas Human Body Version 2.0 - Ray Kurzweil Progress Toward Cyberimmortality - William Bainbridge Will Robots Inherit the Earth? - Marvin Minsky Medical Time Travel: A Question of Science - Brian Wowk Chapter II: PERSPECTIVES: Ethics, Sociology and Philosophy Some Ethical and Theological Considerations - Brad Mellon Superlongevity without Overpopulation - Max More Upsetting the Natural Order - Michael Treder The Self-Defeating Fantasy - Eric Rabkin Time Consciousness in Very Long Life - Manfred Clynes Confessions of a Proselytizing Immortalist - Shannon Vyff Some Problems with Immortalism - Ben Best An Introduction to Immortalist Morality - Marc Geddes Should We Fear Death? - Russell Blackford Who Wants To Live Forever? - Nick Bostrom In addition, Imminst is currently filming a documentary about the healthy life extension community. Details on that can be found here: http://www.imminst.org/film.php A second book is in the works, so anyone who feels up to submitting an original essay for inclusion should have at it. Submission cut-off is tentatively scheduled for February 2005: http://www.imminst.org/book Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From scerir at libero.it Mon Nov 1 07:45:04 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:45:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] glat test References: <002801c4bfb2$f14dd3f0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <013101c4bfe6$b41ab910$2ab21b97@administxl09yj> > Who is this Atkinson guy? spike http://www-th.phys.rug.nl/~atkinson/ A smart and non-orthodox theorist, professor emeritus too. Another non-orthodox Dutch is Wim Rietdijk http://www.xs4all.nl/~bcb/rietdijk.html http://www.xs4all.nl/~bcb/rietdijk8.html http://members.chello.nl/p.cooijmans/essay/int_rietdijk.html Both seem to believe in retrocausation. That is to say that in the quantum domain dynamics is time-symmetric [if time exists, in there]. There are "causes" in the backward light cone, there are also "causes" in the forward light cone. That would explain weird quantum effects. Like EPR non-separability, Young's two-slit complementarity, the "missing" quantum information channel in teleportation, and so on. Not so different from Feynman's approach in terms of "negative" probabilities. At least if one thinks that a "negative" probability could be a probability for things going "the other way around". Saluti, s. "If, without in any way disturbing a system, we can predict with certainty (i.e. with probability equal to unity) the value of a physical quantity, then there exists an element of physical reality corresponding to this physical quantity." - E.P.R. (1935) From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Nov 1 08:13:09 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 19:13:09 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Boston Globe on Kurzweil References: <470a3c52041031224739a4ada8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <02ef01c4bfea$9fbc8080$b8232dcb@homepc> Giu1i0 wrote: Subject: [extropy-chat] The Boston Globe on Kurzweil > Taking proper care of the body today, Kurzweil believes, is a > necessary step on the path to immortality for himself and his fellow > baby boomers. . > In 20 years, he predicts, biotechnology will be able to block the > circuits that cause disease and will radically slow aging. The article doesn't say what disease causing "circuits" he was referring too. If the Globe reporter didn't ask then how could either the reporter or reader tell, even in 20 years time, whether or not the Kurzweil's prediction was true? Its like the reporter doesn't care and doesn't think the reader will either. Ray Kurzweil gets a plug just for being Ray Kurzweil. Brett From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 13:12:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:12:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <20041030201939.39156.qmail@web81208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041101131238.52517.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> > > --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > > The survey methods of Roberts et al. are better than > > any previous estimates > > provided, which is itself startling. All except, of course, for Red Cross/Red Crescent statistics ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 13:15:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:15:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Heinlein and thinking for yourself In-Reply-To: <20041031015949.2155.qmail@web81203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041101131558.86745.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > Doesn't matter. Your comments do not fit the excuse > > making that Damien > > states. What you are saying is that productive > > people owe a living to > > the unproductive or else, period. > > That isn't what was said. What I got out of it was > that it can be in the interests of the productive to > sometimes support the unproductive. Not right, but > expedient. "in the interests" is a euphemism for saying "if you don't pay these louts off, they are going to run riot, loot, and pillage", which fits exactly my description of "pay up or else". Yes it is in the interests of the productive classes that civilization not be torn down by the unproductive, just as it is in the interests of families to pay up the demanded ransom when their kids are kidnapped. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 13:22:07 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 05:22:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041101132207.44672.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > >--- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > >> > >> I am not a statistician, so I would be very interested > >> in the opinions of anyone on this list with a more > >> extensive background than I have. In particular, if I > >> am reading it correctly, they are extrapolating the > >> 100,000 figure from 21 violent deaths. This does not > >> fill me with a great deal of confidence, but I'm > >> willing to be set straight. > > > >Well, as I warned, they are apparently cherry picking data (just > like > >they've done in the past with gun crime stats) and extrapolating > >completely unrealistic conclusions to fit their political agenda. > > Except that they are cherry picking the data to lower the total > amount, the way someone trying to make the war look better would > do. So if this is to fit some political agenda, this agenda would > be fairly aligned with Bush. On the contrary, their rationale is that they can reliably avoid the most violent areas where they would be at risk of kidnapping and avoid all the areas where nothing is going wrong and just pick the low intensity conflict 'middle' areas, but they are screwing up because they are making that selection based on no prior data about what the 'middle' really is, or whether areas of medium violence actually reflect the mean for the whole population. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 14:41:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 06:41:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041101144158.66335.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rik van Riel wrote: > On Sat, 30 Oct 2004, RobKPO wrote: > > > How about accuracy, empathy, and awareness that the public will not > be > > told everything regarding strategic decision making. > > Some interesting facts were presented in a PBS documentary > a few days ago, though. > > For example, the army's battle plan for Iraq calls for over > 400,000 soldiers, with the understanding that it is harder > to make peace than it is to make war. > > In the run-up to the Iraq war, Rumsfeld sat down with the > army and started cutting the number of deployed troops, at > times down to individual units. "You don't really need 3 > brigades here, you'll get 2." > > Meanwhile, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz testify in congress that > "it is ridiculous that making peace could require more troops > than making war". > > We can all see the end results of these leadership decisions. I do agree on this. Rummy and Wolfowitz have apparently fallen into the same micromanaged trap that Robert McNamara did during Vietnam, which Powell refused to allow during the first Gulf War. Now, if whoever winds up in the White House decides to send more troops, they need to be trained in policing. On this note, I'd suggest the government send a good chunk of its own cops here in the US who are surplusage in the Drug War. It wouldn't be a draft since they are already public servants. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 15:12:24 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:12:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing as downregulators In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041031120633.01ad87c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041101151224.71576.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 12:29 PM 10/31/2004 -0500, Rik wrote: > > >The only good > >inequality is one that can be overcome by individuals that > >simply outperform others. IMHO inequality should act as > >a motivation for people to do their very best; the moment > >inequality becomes so big it demotivates people we have a > >problem. > >... > >IMHO, the sharing of wealth should be done only up to the > >point where it helps to give everybody the opportunity to > >be successful. I believe this includes things like basic > >healthcare, education and safety. > > > >Too much more than that, and people might lose the motivation > >to be productive. Too much less than that, and you reduce > >the ability of people to be productive. > > This sums up my own current estimate, too. Nicely expressed. The best motivators, in the words of many wealthy persons who started with nothing, was the determination to never live in poverty again. When people are spared that negative reinforcement, there is less motivation resulting. Large inequalities only demotivate people when they see that the state has put in place barriers to themselves ever reaching similar heights of wealth. These include barriers to escaping poverty (means testing for welfare support), barriers to accessing capital (excessive government debt raising interest rates), and barriers to accessing clientele. "Big businessmen are what small businessmen know they could be if government got out of the way." - Ronald Reagan ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 15:32:22 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:32:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: <20041101003533.41967.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041101153222.61227.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > I've heard that morale in the lower levels of management is generally > quite poor today because those at the top are allegedly rewarded much > more than mid & lower level managers are. Do you know anything about > this? Those I know in management tend to have poor morale because the primary ethic of those at the top these days seems to be figuring out many ways to screw the workforce, loot the company, and get rewarded by the stockholders for doing so, all while making the lower and middle management do all the dirty work of implementing it. >From an austrian economic point of view, one might say that they are forcing an uncompetitive company to survive or die as it should in a darwinian plenum, but those in lower and middle management who believe in the mission of the company often see that they and their workers are an irreplaceable component of that company's success. Part of the problem is a factor which has been much talked about, but never fixed: that government regulations force corporate managment to focus on short term gains rather than long term growth. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Mon Nov 1 15:40:27 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:40:27 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <20041101132207.44672.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041101132207.44672.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > >> Except that they are cherry picking the data to lower the total >> amount, the way someone trying to make the war look better would >> do. So if this is to fit some political agenda, this agenda would >> be fairly aligned with Bush. > >On the contrary, their rationale is that they can reliably avoid the >most violent areas where they would be at risk of kidnapping and avoid >all the areas where nothing is going wrong and just pick the low >intensity conflict 'middle' areas, but they are screwing up because >they are making that selection based on no prior data about what the >'middle' really is, or whether areas of medium violence actually >reflect the mean for the whole population. As I see it, it's very simple. There was a group of houses in Falluja that was by far the worst and gave very high death counts like 200,000+. Removing this group gets the average down to 100,000 and this is what they published. There are no other assumption on what the relative violence rate is here and there, just that they had an unusual data point and they removed it. Keeping it would have mean an even higher count, that could render unbelievable the study. So they made a mistake (ignoring data) to avoid negative publicity. Their total body count is lower than it would be if all of the households were included. There's no need for elaborate thinking about hidden motives or whatever. Of course the standard deviation is so high that the actual number could be anywhere. Alfio From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 15:56:41 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 07:56:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing asdownregulators In-Reply-To: <02a401c4bfdb$f0af9b80$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20041101155641.65517.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Hal Finney wrote: > > > .... How much should we feel obligated to give to help the poor? > > This is the question of wealth and redistribution, applied at the > > personal level, and it's a hard question indeed. > > > Some might argue that we should give all of our wealth until we are > > at the same level of the poor we have donated to. In this way, one > > life is made more difficult, while many others are greatly > improved. > > > > The net happiness in the world would almost certainly be increased > > if each of us adopted this policy. > > > How can we turn away from this logic? > > With respect its not logic. It is a castle in the air. Quite so. It is one more zero sum game that the redistributionistas. Spreading around capital only ensures it is no longer treated as interest earning principal, but as consumer cash. You only get growth when those with a proven ability to invest wisely are allowed to do so without restraint. You get even higher growth when the interest earned by that investment is allowed to compound without tax. Those who invest wisely and keep the rewards of that wisdom, spend that money into the economy and thus redistribute it to those who are most productive. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 16:02:26 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 08:02:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041101160226.80224.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > Of course the standard deviation is so high that the actual number > could be anywhere. That is the crux of the problem, isn't it? They are using a handful of cases to extrapolate for an entire nation, to a degree that even presidential pollsters wouldn't dare. 20 cases can only give you a reliable estimate for a population of 2000, not 50 million. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 1 16:52:21 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:52:21 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria References: <20041101144158.66335.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006e01c4c033$28d17fe0$e9ebfb44@kevin> > Now, if whoever winds up in the White House decides to send more > troops, they need to be trained in policing. On this note, I'd suggest > the government send a good chunk of its own cops here in the US who are > surplusage in the Drug War. It wouldn't be a draft since they are > already public servants. > Now there's an idea worth investigating. I would suggest that they volunteer. Being a public servant doesn;t make it right to just force you to pick up and leave the country. With the right financial incentives, they would volunteer and the overall cost should still be less than the current combined expense of military operations and the "war on drugs"...which I personally think to be a worst waste of expense than the war in Iraq by far since at least something was accomplished. Kevin Freels From hal at finney.org Mon Nov 1 17:22:18 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:22:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing asdownregulators Message-ID: <20041101172218.0F6B457E2A@finney.org> Brett Paatsch writes: > Human societies didn't invent poverty or starvation or disease (though > ways of living do influence the types of disease) and to some extent > human societies have been in part attempts to mitigate against poverty > and starvation... > > If everyone in the world was suddenly infected by a meme that > caused them to want to to distribute all their wealth downwards ... > > You'd need some sort of complex system to implement species wide > altruism.... Apologies for the truncation, but I chose these excerpts because they suggest that this line of analysis is collective and global, not personal. You're talking about human societies and collective action. What would happen if everyone in the world behaved altrustically, how could we get species wide altruism. That's the opposite of my point. I am talking about personal, individual actions. When we make most choices, we don't consider the implications for the grand scope of human society. If I'm hungry, I get a sandwich. If I want to get the latest news, I go online or turn on the TV. These are the kinds of personal actions I am talking about. To choose to save someone from starvation by my personal sacrifice does not require considerations like those you have raised above. I can give money to a charitable organization and have considerable confidence that it will ease human suffering. Real people feeling real pain will be helped by my sacrifice. Again, I am not trying to decide what other people should do. I face a quandary in considering what I, personally, should do. I ask myself, under what circumstances would I sacrifice to save the life of a stranger? Or perhaps just to improve a life which is full of suffering and hardship? What should I consider my obligations in this area to be? I still say that these are hard problems, and that in some ways they are harder than those global issues of species altruism and such. In fact those abstract considerations can in some cases be a defense mechanism, a way for the mind to turn away from facing the brute reality of a world full of suffering, by recasting it in academic abstractions which make it easier to evade consideration of the effects of our decisions. Hal From max at maxmore.com Mon Nov 1 17:34:12 2004 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 11:34:12 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharing as downregulators In-Reply-To: <20041031221101.47856.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041031212034.2D32157E2A@finney.org> <20041031221101.47856.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041101113236.03889a00@mail.earthlink.net> I recently reviewed a book that contains some good tales about people ("social entrepreneurs") who leveraged resources effectively to help out others: How To Change The World Social Entrepreneurs and the Power of New Ideas by David Bornstein The review is here: http://www.manyworlds.com/exploreCO.asp?coid=CO6140411604986 Onward! Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 17:41:37 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 09:41:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <006e01c4c033$28d17fe0$e9ebfb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20041101174137.88291.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > Now there's an idea worth investigating. I would suggest that they > volunteer. Being a public servant doesn;t make it right to just force > you to pick up and leave the country. Sure it does. A public servant accepts as implicit that the government they work for has the right to use force to make people do what the government wants, ergo a public servant accepts in whatever oath of service they swear to to do what they are ordered to do. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Nov 1 18:19:23 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 10:19:23 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <418589B6.31E41C99@mindspring.com> References: <418589B6.31E41C99@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041101101816.02983b90@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> When I was a baby I had damage to my limboid system because they rush around too much. BIOLOGY >LIMBOIDS > >What, if anything, separates life from nonlife? ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From alex at ramonsky.com Mon Nov 1 19:52:40 2004 From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 19:52:40 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] impeccable birth control References: <004a01c4be45$172f4050$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <41869408.6080000@ramonsky.com> I have always had impeccable birth control. -Don't have sex. AR ********** Spike wrote: > > > >>On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, Olga Bourlin wrote: >> >>It is almost impossible for today's women to realize how >>reproductive life was like without the almost impeccable birth control >>we now have... >> >> > > >Our modern birth control techniques are so impeccable >that many women use them until it is too late to have >children, perhaps to their desperate regret. Perhaps >technologically advanced societies will come to depend >on their most irresponsible elements and unwed teenagers >to carry out most of the actual reproduction. > >spike > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Mon Nov 1 20:26:19 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:26:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS References: <418589B6.31E41C99@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <008601c4c051$0c1da590$f4b41b97@administxl09yj> > LIMBOIDS > What, if anything, separates life from nonlife? [miscellanea] At Caltech, Chris Adami is studying exactly that, imo. http://dllab.caltech.edu/avida/ http://dllab.caltech.edu/research/ "According to our approach living organisms and computer programs are beautiful structures and are pretty much the same thing." (?!) http://physis.sourceforge.net/ John Baez wrote: 'Is life improbable?', in Found. Phys. 19 (1989), 91-95, and sometimes this paper appears here too http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/improbable.pdf According to J.B. his paper explains the flaw in a famous proof by Wigner. What his [Wigner's] argument actually proves is something much weaker than what he wanted to prove. Roughly, he proves that if you first pick a specific design of a machine and then randomly choose the laws of physics, it's unlikely this machine will be able to reproduce itself in a specific amount of time. This should not be surprising: to design a machine that does a specified task, one usually needs to know a little about the laws of physics ahead of time. When I restated the problem - says J.B. - and redid Wigner's calculation, I got drastically different results. See also: quant-ph/0303124 'Quantum Mechanical Universal Constructor' by Arun K. Pati, and Samuel L. Braunstein " Arbitrary quantum states cannot be copied. In fact, to make a copy we must provide complete information about the system. However, can a quantum system self-replicate? This is not answered by the no-cloning theorem. In the classical context, Von Neumann showed that a 'universal constructor' can exist which can self-replicate an arbitrary system, provided that it had access to instructions for making copy of the system. We question the existence of a universal constructor that may allow for the self-replication of an arbitrary quantum system. We prove that there is no deterministic universal quantum constructor which can operate with finite resources. Further, we delineate conditions under which such a universal constructor can be designed to operate deterministically and probabilistically. " For now, beautiful manmade boids are here http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/ (no need of a universal quantum constructor!) From benboc at lineone.net Mon Nov 1 20:21:10 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:21:10 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Youthful Characteristics In-Reply-To: <200410311730.i9VHU9028016@tick.javien.com> References: <200410311730.i9VHU9028016@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41869AB6.8040607@lineone.net> Al Brooks wrote: >What do you mean "you suspect" we have a hard time thinking realistically about posthumans and posthuman society? >We haven't the foggiest notion concerning posthumanity. We don't even know much about transhumans & transhuman >society. ben wrote: >>I suspect we have a hard time thinking realistically about posthumans, >>and posthuman society, precisely because they will be posthuman and >>we're not. >>ben :) I was being polite. ben From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Nov 1 21:38:01 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:38:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: <20041101153222.61227.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041101213801.84263.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Part of the problem is a factor which has been much > talked about, but > never fixed: that government regulations force > corporate managment to > focus on short term gains rather than long term > growth. Which regulations are those? I thought the problem was responsibility to shareholders are free to purchase shares without believing in, or even knowing, the company's plans for long term growth, and thus focus only on the short term data (which must also be provided, to try to prevent scams) and demand immediate return on investment. This would not ultimately place responsibility on the government regulations. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Nov 1 21:53:19 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 13:53:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Heinlein and thinking for yourself In-Reply-To: <20041101131558.86745.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041101215319.87908.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Yes it is in the interests of the productive classes > that civilization > not be torn down by the unproductive, just as it is > in the interests of > families to pay up the demanded ransom when their > kids are kidnapped. And in both cases, it is in the long-term interests of the former that the latter class (the unproductive, or those who would kidnap) be eliminated such that the threat does not reoccur. But unlike a single family, the productive classes as a whole know that the bribe will be needed of them in particular, instead of merely some other productive classes, again and again, making the long term interest more directly relevant. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 22:44:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 14:44:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: <20041101213801.84263.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041101224457.37644.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Part of the problem is a factor which has been much > > talked about, but > > never fixed: that government regulations force > > corporate managment to > > focus on short term gains rather than long term > > growth. > > Which regulations are those? I thought the problem > was responsibility to shareholders are free to > purchase shares without believing in, or even > knowing, the company's plans for long term growth, > and thus focus only on the short term data (which > must also be provided, to try to prevent scams) and > demand immediate return on investment. This would not > ultimately place responsibility on the government > regulations. Government regs requiring quarterly reports create this situation. If, instead, all corporations reported only annually, you'd automatically lengthen the view of the shareholder by four times. If you allowed them to report only once every two years if they wanted to, you'd lengthen the view of the investor even more. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Nov 1 23:06:27 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: <20041101224457.37644.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041101230627.9248.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Which regulations are those? I thought the > problem > > was responsibility to shareholders are free to > > purchase shares without believing in, or even > > knowing, the company's plans for long term growth, > > and thus focus only on the short term data (which > > must also be provided, to try to prevent scams) > and > > demand immediate return on investment. This would > not > > ultimately place responsibility on the government > > regulations. > > Government regs requiring quarterly reports create > this situation. If, > instead, all corporations reported only annually, > you'd automatically > lengthen the view of the shareholder by four times. > If you allowed them > to report only once every two years if they wanted > to, you'd lengthen > the view of the investor even more. Okay...so how do you prevent managers from cashing out the company between reports and leaving shareholders with an empty bag? Granted, that does sometimes happen now, but it's a lot easier to do over the course of a year than over the course of three months...and one can report on quarterly progress towards a long-term goal, noting milestones met (or missed) on the long-term project plan. (And any project, even a long-term one, needs a plan to have a good chance of success. Ones that last for months are often broken down into days, so theoretically ones that last for years should be able to be broken into three-month segments, no?) From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Mon Nov 1 23:48:53 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 15:48:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Youthful Characteristics In-Reply-To: <41869AB6.8040607@lineone.net> Message-ID: <20041101234853.97944.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Everytime I think about posthumanity, my mind boggles; no wonder Luddites are so frightened at the prospect of their descendents being non-human. However, in the back of my mind I think not only of how fear of death, severe injury, and intense pain scare people into violence & warfare, but also how the biosphere is temporary-- it could easily be wiped out by an asteroid or comet or whatever else some of you scientists could think of. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samantha at objectent.com Tue Nov 2 00:09:45 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 16:09:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <001c01c4bd52$e1d706b0$5eeafb44@kevin> References: <20041028220024.50818.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <001c01c4bd52$e1d706b0$5eeafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <8074ED0C-2C63-11D9-ABE7-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Considering that: a) Israel has ignored at least 500% more UN resolutions; b) WMD was the key reason that the war was justified to Congress & the people; c) the inspectors had not given up and did not believe there were significant weapons to find; d) the inspectors were not done. He acted as if he distrusted the UN and inspectors. He had good reason to given past experience. So why or how is your argument remotely a justification for this invasion and occupation? -s On Oct 28, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Kevin Freels wrote: > It is quite evident that people on this list aren't immune to > believing for > the sake of belief. Those who son;t like Bush choose to believe that > WMDs > were never there. Those who like Bush choose to believe that they were > there > and taken out of the country. We may never know if they were there or > not. > The fact remains that Saddam ignored 12 UN resolutions and constantly > worked > against UN inspectors knowing full well that we wouldn;t put up with it > forever. The invasion of Iraq would have been totally avoided if he > would > have simply opened up the the UN as he was requested countless times. > Whether or not the WMDs were there or not is irrelevant. He acted as > though > they were. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Lorrey" > To: > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 5:00 PM > Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria > > >> As I've steadily maintained since last year, it is now becoming >> evident >> that Iraq received significant aid from Russia in its weapons >> programs, >> and especially in its program to extract its most useful weapons to be >> safeguarded by Saddam's Baathist bretheren in Syria (note I posted a >> story of how France and Germany negotiated an EU treaty with Syria >> which will allow it to keep any WMD in its territory, i.e. the WMD are >> there, being swept under the rug by the international left). >> >> http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041028-122637-6257r.htm >> >> Russia tied to Iraq's missing arms >> By Bill Gertz >> THE WASHINGTON TIMES >> >> Russian special forces troops moved many of Saddam Hussein's >> weapons and related goods out of Iraq and into Syria in the weeks >> before the March 2003 U.S. military operation, The Washington Times >> has >> learned. >> John A. Shaw, the deputy undersecretary of defense for >> international technology security, said in an interview that he >> believes the Russian troops, working with Iraqi intelligence, "almost >> certainly" removed the high-explosive material that went missing from >> the Al-Qaqaa facility, south of Baghdad. >> "The Russians brought in, just before the war got started, a whole >> series of military units," Mr. Shaw said. "Their main job was to shred >> all evidence of any of the contractual arrangements they had with the >> Iraqis. The others were transportation units." >> Mr. Shaw, who was in charge of cataloging the tons of conventional >> arms provided to Iraq by foreign suppliers, said he recently obtained >> reliable information on the arms-dispersal program from two European >> intelligence services that have detailed knowledge of the >> Russian-Iraqi >> weapons collaboration. >> Most of Saddam's most powerful arms were systematically separated >> from other arms like mortars, bombs and rockets, and sent to Syria and >> Lebanon, and possibly to Iran, he said. >> The Russian involvement in helping disperse Saddam's weapons, >> including some 380 tons of RDX and HMX, is still being investigated, >> Mr. Shaw said. >> The RDX and HMX, which are used to manufacture high-explosive and >> nuclear weapons, are probably of Russian origin, he said. >> Pentagon spokesman Larry DiRita could not be reached for comment. >> The disappearance of the material was reported in a letter Oct. 10 >> from the Iraqi government to the International Atomic Energy Agency. >> Disclosure of the missing explosives Monday in a New York Times >> story was used by the Democratic presidential campaign of Sen. John >> Kerry, who accused the Bush administration of failing to secure the >> material. >> Al-Qaqaa, a known Iraqi weapons site, was monitored closely, Mr. >> Shaw said. >> "That was such a pivotal location, Number 1, that the mere fact of >> [special explosives] disappearing was impossible," Mr. Shaw said. "And >> Number 2, if the stuff disappeared, it had to have gone before we got >> there." >> The Pentagon disclosed yesterday that the Al-Qaqaa facility was >> defended by Fedayeen Saddam, Special Republican Guard and other Iraqi >> military units during the conflict. U.S. forces defeated the defenders >> around April 3 and found the gates to the facility open, the Pentagon >> said in a statement yesterday. >> A military unit in charge of searching for weapons, the Army's >> 75th >> Exploitation Task Force, then inspected Al-Qaqaa on May 8, May 11 and >> May 27, 2003, and found no high explosives that had been monitored in >> the past by the IAEA. >> The Pentagon said there was no evidence of large-scale movement of >> explosives from the facility after April 6. >> "The movement of 377 tons of heavy ordnance would have required >> dozens of heavy trucks and equipment moving along the same roadways as >> U.S. combat divisions occupied continually for weeks prior to and >> subsequent to the 3rd Infantry Division's arrival at the facility," >> the >> statement said. >> The statement also said that the material may have been removed >> from the site by Saddam's regime. >> According to the Pentagon, U.N. arms inspectors sealed the >> explosives at Al-Qaqaa in January 2003 and revisited the site in March >> and noted that the seals were not broken. >> It is not known whether the inspectors saw the explosives in >> March. >> The U.N. team left the country before the U.S.-led invasion began >> March >> 20, 2003. >> A second defense official said documents on the Russian support to >> Iraq reveal that Saddam's government paid the Kremlin for the special >> forces to provide security for Iraq's Russian arms and to conduct >> counterintelligence activities designed to prevent U.S. and Western >> intelligence services from learning about the arms pipeline through >> Syria. >> The Russian arms-removal program was initiated after Yevgeny >> Primakov, the former Russian intelligence chief, could not persuade >> Saddam to give in to U.S. and Western demands, this official said. >> A small portion of Iraq's 650,000 tons to 1 million tons of >> conventional arms that were found after the war were looted after the >> U.S.-led invasion, Mr. Shaw said. Russia was Iraq's largest foreign >> supplier of weaponry, he said. >> However, the most important and useful arms and explosives appear >> to have been separated and moved out as part of carefully designed >> program. "The organized effort was done in advance of the conflict," >> Mr. Shaw said. >> The Russian forces were tasked with moving special arms out of the >> country. >> Mr. Shaw said foreign intelligence officials believe the Russians >> worked with Saddam's Mukhabarat intelligence service to separate out >> special weapons, including high explosives and other arms and related >> technology, from standard conventional arms spread out in some 200 >> arms >> depots. >> The Russian weapons were then sent out of the country to Syria, >> and >> possibly Lebanon in Russian trucks, Mr. Shaw said. >> Mr. Shaw said he believes that the withdrawal of Russian-made >> weapons and explosives from Iraq was part of plan by Saddam to set up >> a >> "redoubt" in Syria that could be used as a base for launching >> pro-Saddam insurgency operations in Iraq. >> The Russian units were dispatched beginning in January 2003 and by >> March had destroyed hundreds of pages of documents on Russian arms >> supplies to Iraq while dispersing arms to Syria, the second official >> said. >> Besides their own weapons, the Russians were supplying Saddam with >> arms made in Ukraine, Belarus, Bulgaria and other Eastern European >> nations, he said. >> "Whatever was not buried was put on lorries and sent to the Syrian >> border," the defense official said. >> Documents reviewed by the official included itineraries of >> military >> units involved in the truck shipments to Syria. The materials outlined >> in the documents included missile components, MiG jet parts, tank >> parts >> and chemicals used to make chemical weapons, the official said. >> The director of the Iraqi government front company known as the Al >> Bashair Trading Co. fled to Syria, where he is in charge of monitoring >> arms holdings and funding Iraqi insurgent activities, the official >> said. >> Also, an Arabic-language report obtained by U.S. intelligence >> disclosed the extent of Russian armaments. The 26-page report was >> written by Abdul Tawab Mullah al Huwaysh, Saddam's minister of >> military >> industrialization, who was captured by U.S. forces May 2, 2003. >> The Russian "spetsnaz" or special-operations forces were under the >> GRU military intelligence service and organized large commercial truck >> convoys for the weapons removal, the official said. >> Regarding the explosives, the new Iraqi government reported that >> 194.7 metric tons of HMX, or high-melting-point explosive, and 141.2 >> metric tons of RDX, or rapid-detonation explosive, and 5.8 metric tons >> of PETN, or pentaerythritol tetranitrate, were missing. >> The material is used in nuclear weapons and also in making >> military >> "plastic" high explosive. >> Defense officials said the Russians can provide information on >> what >> happened to the Iraqi weapons and explosives that were transported out >> of the country. Officials believe the Russians also can explain what >> happened to Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. >> >> ===== >> Mike Lorrey >> Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH >> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." >> -William Pitt (1759-1806) >> Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. >> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From Walter_Chen at compal.com Tue Nov 2 00:35:42 2004 From: Walter_Chen at compal.com (Walter_Chen at compal.com) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:35:42 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS Message-ID: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7ED96@tpeex05> Or as some people think, this is a conscious universe and even the non-living things have some consciousness in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments if possible). Thanks. Walter. --------- -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 4:26 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS > LIMBOIDS > What, if anything, separates life from nonlife? [miscellanea] At Caltech, Chris Adami is studying exactly that, imo. http://dllab.caltech.edu/avida/ http://dllab.caltech.edu/research/ "According to our approach living organisms and computer programs are beautiful structures and are pretty much the same thing." (?!) http://physis.sourceforge.net/ John Baez wrote: 'Is life improbable?', in Found. Phys. 19 (1989), 91-95, and sometimes this paper appears here too http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/improbable.pdf According to J.B. his paper explains the flaw in a famous proof by Wigner. What his [Wigner's] argument actually proves is something much weaker than what he wanted to prove. Roughly, he proves that if you first pick a specific design of a machine and then randomly choose the laws of physics, it's unlikely this machine will be able to reproduce itself in a specific amount of time. This should not be surprising: to design a machine that does a specified task, one usually needs to know a little about the laws of physics ahead of time. When I restated the problem - says J.B. - and redid Wigner's calculation, I got drastically different results. See also: quant-ph/0303124 'Quantum Mechanical Universal Constructor' by Arun K. Pati, and Samuel L. Braunstein " Arbitrary quantum states cannot be copied. In fact, to make a copy we must provide complete information about the system. However, can a quantum system self-replicate? This is not answered by the no-cloning theorem. In the classical context, Von Neumann showed that a 'universal constructor' can exist which can self-replicate an arbitrary system, provided that it had access to instructions for making copy of the system. We question the existence of a universal constructor that may allow for the self-replication of an arbitrary quantum system. We prove that there is no deterministic universal quantum constructor which can operate with finite resources. Further, we delineate conditions under which such a universal constructor can be designed to operate deterministically and probabilistically. " For now, beautiful manmade boids are here http://www.red3d.com/cwr/boids/ (no need of a universal quantum constructor!) _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Nov 2 00:57:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:57:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] DUMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7ED96@tpeex05> References: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7ED96@tpeex05> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101185212.01ad5300@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:35 AM 11/2/2004 +0800, Walter_Chen wrote: >Or as some people think, this is a conscious universe and even the >non-living things have some >consciousness in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments >if possible). The trouble with this proposition, which appears to make the mistake of projecting a local (and locally highly-esteeemed) state of matter upon the rest of the universe, is that it's no more plausible than, say: this is a broccoli-like universe and even the non-living things have some broccoli qualities in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments if possible). or this is a musical universe and even the non-living things have some tunefulness in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments if possible). or this is a sheep-like universe and even the non-living things have some sheepishness in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments if possible). Damien Broderick [feeling a bit sheepish--but that's *goood* in a sheepish universe] From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Tue Nov 2 02:11:11 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:11:11 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] DUMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101185212.01ad5300@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041102021108.CFACCCA8B@vscan02.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick >Or as some people think, this is a conscious universe and even the >non-living things have some >consciousness in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments >if possible). The trouble with this proposition, which appears to make the mistake of projecting a local (and locally highly-esteeemed) state of matter upon the rest of the universe, is that it's no more plausible than, say: this is a broccoli-like universe or this is a musical universe or this is a sheep-like universe ------------------------------------- Lemme guess....roast lamb with broccoli, accompanied by Bach? No fava beans? Sean From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 2 02:35:49 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 18:35:49 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7ED96@tpeex05> References: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7ED96@tpeex05> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041101183503.02964b10@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> How can we test for consciousness without a definition and measurement criteria? At 04:35 PM 11/1/2004, you wrote: >Or as some people think, this is a conscious universe and even the >non-living things have some >consciousness in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments >if possible). > >Thanks. > >Walter. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 02:40:59 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 18:40:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] 1908 asteroid In-Reply-To: <20041102023541.75038.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041102024059.76674.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> this link theorizes the 1908 asteroid explosion over Siberia was approximately 500 kilotons, i.e. equivalent to large hydrogen bomb. The article reassuringly states that such an asteroid 'impact', about six kilometers up in the atmosphere, might occur over a populated area every 3600 years. http://www.psi.edu/projects/siberia/siberia.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Nov 2 03:28:49 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 21:28:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] DUMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <20041102021108.CFACCCA8B@vscan02.westnet.com.au> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101185212.01ad5300@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041102021108.CFACCCA8B@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101212631.01c35ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:11 AM 11/2/2004 +0800, Sean wrote: > >No fava beans? As T. S. Eliot put it in *The Waste Land*: `Mon Hannibal! Mon lecteur!' Damien Broderick From Walter_Chen at compal.com Tue Nov 2 03:59:14 2004 From: Walter_Chen at compal.com (Walter_Chen at compal.com) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:59:14 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS Message-ID: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7EDA0@tpeex05> This must be a very old topic: If human beings came from a big bang of the universe, it's really very possible that there was already some consciousness at the big bang or when there were just non-living things. (It's not necessary to say there must be some Creator or God.) It's like the preservation of consciousness. PK or teleportation may provide some direction to this. Of course, we need to prove them scientifically. As David Bohm thought, there could be much more very subtle active information at the subatomic level. Thanks. Walter. --------- -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Hara Ra Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 10:36 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS How can we test for consciousness without a definition and measurement criteria? At 04:35 PM 11/1/2004, you wrote: Or as some people think, this is a conscious universe and even the non-living things have some consciousness in some way (waiting to be proved by scientific experiments if possible). Thanks. Walter. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 2 04:11:00 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:11:00 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] DUMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101212631.01c35ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101185212.01ad5300@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041102021108.CFACCCA8B@vscan02.westnet.com.au> <6.1.1.1.0.20041101212631.01c35ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <418708D4.4040806@jefallbright.net> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:11 AM 11/2/2004 +0800, Sean wrote: > >> >> No fava beans? > > > As T. S. Eliot put it in *The Waste Land*: > > `Mon Hannibal! Mon lecteur!' > Mon elan vital! I find great comfort in eating only organic, live foods. ;-) - Jef From extropians at perception.co.nz Tue Nov 2 04:14:47 2004 From: extropians at perception.co.nz (Simon Dawson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:14:47 +1300 Subject: [extropy-chat] DUMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <418708D4.4040806@jefallbright.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101185212.01ad5300@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041102021108.CFACCCA8B@vscan02.westnet.com.au> <6.1.1.1.0.20041101212631.01c35ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <418708D4.4040806@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102171410.059ea728@127.0.0.1> At 17:11 2/11/2004, you wrote: >Damien Broderick wrote: > >>At 10:11 AM 11/2/2004 +0800, Sean wrote: >> >>> >>>No fava beans? >> >> >>As T. S. Eliot put it in *The Waste Land*: >> >>`Mon Hannibal! Mon lecteur!' >Mon elan vital! > >I find great comfort in eating only organic, live foods. ;-) you mean, like cows, straight from the paddock? :)) From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Nov 2 04:20:19 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 20:20:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] DUMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102171410.059ea728@127.0.0.1> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041101185212.01ad5300@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041102021108.CFACCCA8B@vscan02.westnet.com.au> <6.1.1.1.0.20041101212631.01c35ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <418708D4.4040806@jefallbright.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20041102171410.059ea728@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <41870B03.2000001@jefallbright.net> Simon Dawson wrote: >At 17:11 2/11/2004, you wrote: > > >>Damien Broderick wrote: >> >> >> >>>At 10:11 AM 11/2/2004 +0800, Sean wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>No fava beans? >>>> >>>> >>>As T. S. Eliot put it in *The Waste Land*: >>> >>>`Mon Hannibal! Mon lecteur!' >>> >>> >>Mon elan vital! >> >>I find great comfort in eating only organic, live foods. ;-) >> >> > >you mean, like cows, straight from the paddock? :)) > > > Well, cows are like totally spiritual, but I would rather grok higher life forms in the manner of Michael Valentine Smith. As we all know, you are what you eat. ;-) - Jef From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Nov 2 05:46:24 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 21:46:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bin Laden Wants to Bankrupt U.S. Message-ID: <006101c4c09f$4b327eb0$6600a8c0@brainiac> "So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy bled, and Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his future," bin Laden said.: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 06:34:21 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 07:34:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dyson on human enhancement Message-ID: <470a3c5204110122347ebcd813@mail.gmail.com> The American Enterprise sat down with three of the most fascinating figures in space science to converse about the heavens, the Earth, and how the twain might meet. Interview with David Levy, Robert Zubrin and Freeman Dyson. Dyson: "The one thing I don't want is to have a cure for death. I'm 80 years old so I can speak freely about death. I think death is a good idea. We have to have some means of clearing away the old to make room for the young, and death seems to be a good way of doing that. The only alternative would be if there was some way of really rejuvenating people so that you lost all your old cantankerous thoughts and are really born anew; that would be almost as good as death and new birth. Apart from that, I think most of what genetic engineering can do for us is good. I want to see a diversification of life, and we need that, of course, if we are to go away from this planet. I would like life to spread in the universe, and to have all these dead, boring places in the universe come to life with new ecologies and new communities. If we could engineer that, it would be great. It might mean that the human species could also cease to exist as a species, and would diversify into all kinds of different creatures that would be adapted to living in different places." http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.18294/article_detail.asp From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Nov 2 06:39:35 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:39:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] IRAQ: Weapons pipeline to Syria In-Reply-To: <8074ED0C-2C63-11D9-ABE7-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <003d01c4c0a6$b86de350$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > On Oct 28, 2004, at 6:01 PM, Kevin Freels wrote: ... > > Whether or not the WMDs were there or not is irrelevant. He > > acted as though they were. I have a theory on why he did that. Saddam believed he did have WMDs. Reasoning: he handed out millions of bucks to his top generals to develop advanced weapon systems. He probably had each of them estimate how much it would cost to develop such and such a weapon. He chose the one that gave him the lowest estimate, then gave that general about half to 2/3 the estimate. The general soon learned the two rules that we yanks already know: 1) every weapon system costs waaaaay more than anyone expects. 2) even if rule 1 is taken into account, it still costs waaay more than anyone expects. That general steals some of the money and burns thru most of the rest of it in fruitless research and still has no weapons program, so he takes a calculated risk: he buys something analogous to that system from Russia, paints over the hammer and curvy knife thingy, demonstrates the system to Saddam, who becomes convinced that Iraq now has such and such weapons. The general is a top military guy, he isn't stupid. Generals don't get to be generals by making mistakes. He knows that should war break out, his gambit would be found out, at which time Saddam would round up the general's parents, wife, children, friends etc and torture them to all death in front of his eyes, then kill him. Sooooo... When the coalition shows up, there is little real resistance. The Iraqi army is nowhere to be seen. The only actual fighting is from Muslim zealots, few of which are Iraqi. The coalition is as much the savior of the Iraqi generals as anyone else. The generals thus escape Saddam's retribution; they have all done the same thing under the same circumstances. So Saddam, Baghdad Bob and the rest of the world are surprised to learn belatedly that Iraq really doesn't have much, they do not have the capability to produce advanced weaponry, but they do have a lot of stuff they weren't supposed to have, sold to them primarily by the Russians. Putin is understandably squirmy. He didn't authorize the sale of arms to Iraq for fear of pissing off Bush and Blair, but suspects that Russian weapons were sold to Iraq illegally, possibly by Syria or other countries with which he did business. Evidence: the Iraqis have advanced Russian GPS jammers. So Putin stalls as long as he can, but when he knows the invasion is going to happen in a week or two, he moves quickly to cover his tracks. He makes arrangements to move the high explosives and anything else that might be found to be Russian, in a convoy of trucks to somewhere, anywhere, Syria will do. This also gives the Iraqi generals an out: they can claim their advanced programs were squirrelled away in Syria. Doesn't that theory fit all the observations so far? Now here's the curious part. Some of the anti-W crowd was saying there were never any WMDs, but if you listen closely to the tall guy, he doesn't actually make that claim. He made many claims that were close to that, but Skerry avoided the position that we shouldn't have invaded Iraq because there were no WMDs. In a sense, Skerry is as much a hawk as Bush, thereby giving away (in my mind) any advantage he had over W. He didn't say he wouldn't have gone to war with Iraq, but rather that he would have fought it better, or more sensitively or smarter or whatever. I doubt that he would have done any better, but it doesn't matter at this point. In the last week before the election, Skerry comes out with this big hootnanny about 400 tonnnnns of missing high explosives, which were not allowed under the 1991 treaty, which had to come from somewhere since Iraq generally doesn't manufacture that stuff, which is admitting that Saddam was illegally buying munitions and illegally stockpiling dangerous stuff and chipping away at the UN sanctions, and had to be stopped, which is all W and Blair were claiming to start with. This tactic by Skerry divides the anti-W crowd; it cuts off those who maintained that there was not sufficient justification for invading Iraq. Now we yanks are faced with a choice tomorrow of two hawks. We can go out and vote for the libertarian Badnarik if we want, but we know that either way our troops are stuck in Iraq for at least another four years. And even Badnarik has no really convincing plan for how to get out of Iraq. If we just pack up and leave, the Sunnis and Shia, who hate each other and hate christians nearly as much, will surely go into civil war. You can bet the first casualties are the christians. Both W and Skerry know that if he were to allow the Iraqis to slay 3E6 Iraqi christians, then that candidate would be trounced in 08 by someone who is still more hawkish than either W or Skerry. Suggestions anyone? Samantha have you the answers to this? I am all ears. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Nov 2 07:07:07 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:07:07 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory Message-ID: <041901c4c0aa$90a1c270$b8232dcb@homepc> Looks like a Kerry victory may be about to happen after all. I've been watching this site for a few weeks. http://www.electoral-vote.com/ in the last couple of days there seems to have been a heck of a lot of polls and the trend of electoral-votes has been tending ever so slightly towards a Kerry win. Brett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Tue Nov 2 07:41:32 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:41:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] DUMBOIDS References: <20041102021108.CFACCCA8B@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <103b01c4c0af$5fe3f040$5eb41b97@administxl09yj> [D.B.] > this is a broccoli-like universe > or > this is a musical universe > or > this is a sheep-like universe [Sean] > Lemme guess....roast lamb with broccoli, > accompanied by Bach? No fava beans? Also. But, essentially, it is a "tutti frutti" universe :-) According to Carroll and Chen (hep-th/0410270) observers in the very far past of our universe will also detect an arrow of time, but one that will be reversed from ours with respect to some (completely unobservable) global time coordinate throughout the entire spacetime. Both sets of observers will think of the others as living in their "past". As in other models of eternal inflation, the future history of spacetime takes on a fractal structure of ever-increasing volume. A similar structure is found in a time-reversed sense in the far past. (Not to mention Multiverses and Many-Minds!). [Walter] > If human beings came from a big bang of the universe, > it's really very possible that there was already > some consciousness at the big bang or when there were > just non-living things. A big bang? "A society which accepts the idea that the origin of the cosmos could be explained in terms of an explosion, reveals more about the society itself, than about the universe." - Carl Friedrich Freiherr von Weizsaecker A conscious big bang? "It is absurd to suppose that purpose is not present because we do not observe the agent deliberating. Art does not deliberate. If the ship-building art were in the wood, it would produce the same results by nature. If, therefore, purpose is present in art, it is present also in nature. The best illustration is a doctor doctoring himself: nature is like that." - Aristotle Tutti Frutti (1955) A-bop-bop, a-loo-mop, a-lop-bop-bop Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie A-bop-bop, a-loo-mop, a-lop-bop-bop I got a gal, her name's Sue She knows just what to do I got a gal, her name's Sue She knows just what to do I've been to the east I've been to the west But she's the gal That I love the best Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Whooo, Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie A-bop-bop, a-loo-mop, a-lop-bop-bop I got a gal, her name's Daisy She almost drives me crazy I got a gal, her name's Daisy She almost drives me crazy She's a real gone cookie Yes, sir-ree But pretty little Susie Is The gal for me Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Whooo, Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie A-bop-bop, a-loo-mop, a-lop-bop-bop [Instrumental Interlude] Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Whooo, Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie A-bop-bop, a-loo-mop, a-lop-bop-bop I got a gal, her name's Daisy She almost drives me crazy I got a gal, her name's Daisy She almost drives me crazy She's a real gone cookie Yes, sir-ree But pretty little Susie Is The gal for me Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Whooo, Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie Tutti Frutti, all rootie A-bop-bop, a-loo-mop, a-lop-bam-boom From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Nov 2 07:37:13 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 01:37:13 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Stem cells cures 'feasible, sensible' Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102013613.01caeec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,11256424,00.html Leigh Dayton, Science writer 02nov04 WITHIN 15 to 25 years, doctors will be using stem cell therapy to treat a host of serious diseases, from Alzheimer's to Huntington's, a pioneer of embryonic stem cell research claims. "In virtually every test environment it's been shown to work. It's feasible and sensible," claims geneticist Martin Evans, head of biosciences at Cardiff University in Wales. Sir Martin is in Australia to visit biotech firms such as Ozgene in Perth, and to speak at the Ausbiotech 2004 conference in Brisbane this week. In 1981, while at England's Cambridge University, he and research partner Matt Kaufman first "isolated" ? separated from other cell types ? embryonic stem (ES) cells in mice. [etc] From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 07:56:46 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:56:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <041901c4c0aa$90a1c270$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <041901c4c0aa$90a1c270$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <7a32170504110123566d047eba@mail.gmail.com> Hooray for the good guys!!! Oh, uh, I mean, that's interesting statistical data, and may the best man win. On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:07:07 +1100, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > Looks like a Kerry victory may be about to happen after all. > > I've been watching this site for a few weeks. http://www.electoral-vote.com/ > in the last couple of > days there seems to have been a heck of a lot of polls > and the trend of electoral-votes has been tending ever > so slightly towards a Kerry win. > > Brett > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 09:32:57 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 01:32:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <7a32170504110123566d047eba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041102093257.74127.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Too good to be true? If it is then i will be seriously interested in transhumanism/extropianism. However if Bush wins it wont be worth it; four more years of this? It's been like one door after another slamming on transhumanism. --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hooray for the good guys!!! > > Oh, uh, I mean, that's interesting statistical data, > and may the best man win. > > > On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:07:07 +1100, Brett Paatsch > wrote: > > > > Looks like a Kerry victory may be about to happen > after all. > > > > I've been watching this site for a few weeks. > http://www.electoral-vote.com/ > > in the last couple of > > days there seems to have been a heck of a lot of > polls > > and the trend of electoral-votes has been tending > ever > > so slightly towards a Kerry win. > > > > Brett > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From maxm at mail.tele.dk Tue Nov 2 09:38:38 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 10:38:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <008601c4c051$0c1da590$f4b41b97@administxl09yj> References: <418589B6.31E41C99@mindspring.com> <008601c4c051$0c1da590$f4b41b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <4187559E.2020605@mail.tele.dk> >>LIMBOIDS >>What, if anything, separates life from nonlife? >> >> Religion... If you believe in God, you believe that God created life. If you don't believe in religion, there is no reason at all to see life/non-life as binary oppositions. Life and non life is on a scale. In one end there is clearly no life in the other end there is clearly life, as we define it. What confuses is that there seem to have been some kind of "life singularity", where the chemical reactions changed state quickly from non-life to life. And by now the difference between chemical reactions and life is pretty big. I guess that what we call life is a combination of many different factors. Yet they all seem to have exceptions. I think that the most basic thing that different life forms has in common is that they can postpone entropy. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Nov 2 09:42:41 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 20:42:41 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] extreme inequality *and* wealth-sharingasdownregulators References: <20041101172218.0F6B457E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <046501c4c0c0$4c0bc4b0$b8232dcb@homepc> Hal Finney wrote: > Brett Paatsch writes: >> Human societies didn't invent poverty or starvation or disease >> (though ways of living do influence the types of disease) and to >> some extent human societies have been in part attempts to > > mitigate against poverty and starvation... >> >> If everyone in the world was suddenly infected by a meme that >> caused them to want to to distribute all their wealth downwards ... >> >> You'd need some sort of complex system to implement species > > wide altruism.... > > Apologies for the truncation, but I chose these excerpts because > they suggest that this line of analysis is collective and global, not > personal. The line of analysis came from a flesh and blood person. I promise. Moreover, it came out in response to what you wrote. > You're talking about human societies and collective action. What > would happen if everyone in the world behaved altrustically, how > could we get species wide altruism. Yes I was. But not before you'd mused that "some might argue that we should give away all of our wealth until we are at the same level of the poor we have donated to. ... The (quote) net happiness in the world (unquote) would almost certainly be increased if each of us adopted this policy. " And then you went on to ask "how (sic) can we turn away from this logic (sic)?" So then, I took up what I perceived to be an offer to converse by answering a question that you asked as if it wasn't entirely rhetorical. > That's the opposite of my point. I am talking about personal, > individual actions. When we make most choices, we don't > consider the implications for the grand scope of human society. > If I'm hungry, I get a sandwich. If I want to get the latest news, > I go online or turn on the TV. These are the kinds of personal > actions I am talking about. There is no way I'm going to believe that Hal Finney makes moral decisions in essentially the same way that as a rabbit or a coach potato makes dietary and program viewing decisions. Not everyone reasons about things to the same extent, some guy called Kohlberg produced a scheme involving various levels of moral reasoning. > To choose to save someone from starvation by my personal > sacrifice does not require considerations like those you have > raised above. If you have to choose in the face of an actual person with and obvious and desperate need than I reckon you're right and pretty typical. I think most westerners would respond in those circumstances - we don't see a lot of starvation up close and personal. > I can give money to a charitable organization and have considerable > confidence that it will ease human suffering. Real people feeling > real pain will be helped by my sacrifice. Sure. > Again, I am not trying to decide what other people should do. I accept that. But you didn't write what you were thinking in a diary (or not only a diary anyway) you wrote it on the Exi chat list. > I face a quandary in considering what I, personally, should do. Right now? Right this second, or just as part of a sort of ongoing personal existential angst. (Not to downplay that but there are degrees of urgency as well as degrees of importance). If its the first then just say so and I'll stop clowning about. If its the second, then, me too. > I ask myself, under what circumstances would I sacrifice to save > the life of a stranger? Or perhaps just to improve a life which is > full of suffering and hardship? What should I consider my > obligations in this area to be? I ask those sorts of questions of myself too. I also ask what should I do next. Its often very hard to decide exactly what to do next. Time, like money, and perhaps even more than money, is a limited personal resource. > I still say that these are hard problems, and that in some ways > they are harder than those global issues of species altruism and > such. I agree they are hard problems. But they are hard problems because they are the sort of problems a person ultimately has to nut out answers to for themselves. The responsibility for choosing a personal course of action or for failing to take action rests on each of us personally. And there is a good chance that as we go through life we will not always make the same decisions in the same way because we will differ in how well we are able to reason about moral issues as well as in the sort of resources we have at our disposal. > In fact those abstract considerations can in some cases be a > defense mechanism, a way for the mind to turn away from facing > the brute reality of a world full of suffering, by recasting it in > academic > abstractions which make it easier to evade consideration of the > effects of our decisions. They could be. In some cases. I don't think I was being defensive though. If we kid ourselves on a list rather than in our heads then there is at least a chance that any rationalisation will be pointed out. Regards, Brett From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 09:50:03 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 01:50:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <20041102093257.74127.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041102095004.91400.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Not to be alarmist, but since 2000 it's been one f-up after another; dotcom bust, recession, Bush election, 9-11, Enron-type reverses (yes, i know, 'creative destruction'), misfired Iraq invasion. It's enough to turn one to the remote possibility of the 'Endtimes' Christians subscribe to. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Nov 2 10:16:45 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:16:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <20041102093257.74127.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7a32170504110123566d047eba@mail.gmail.com> <20041102093257.74127.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204110202167c15b807@mail.gmail.com> Fingers crossed. G. On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 01:32:57 -0800 (PST), Al Brooks wrote: > Too good to be true? If it is then i will be seriously > interested in transhumanism/extropianism. However if > Bush wins it wont be worth it; four more years of > this? It's been like one door after another slamming > on transhumanism. > > > > > --- Zero Powers wrote: > > > Hooray for the good guys!!! > > > > Oh, uh, I mean, that's interesting statistical data, > > and may the best man win. > > > > > > On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:07:07 +1100, Brett Paatsch > > wrote: > > > > > > Looks like a Kerry victory may be about to happen > > after all. > > > > > > I've been watching this site for a few weeks. > > http://www.electoral-vote.com/ > > > in the last couple of > > > days there seems to have been a heck of a lot of > > polls > > > and the trend of electoral-votes has been tending > > ever > > > so slightly towards a Kerry win. > > > > > > Brett > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 10:26:26 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 02:26:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] optimism study Message-ID: <20041102102626.34368.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> A Dutch research involving 900 men & women aged 65-85 has concluded there is a 55% reduction in death by all causes by the subject being optimistic; a 23% reduction in death related to cardio-vascular conditions by being optimistic. One obvious problem is that if one is too optimistic one will be severely ridiculed-- even in a nation such as Holland few can bear excessive ridicule. It is almost as if most have a sort of sonar built into them giving them the ability to sense when someone is too optimistic or has the guarding of one's psychic flank down caused by temporary depression or merely inattention. It's a peculiar phenomenon that is in itself enough to shake one's optimism. --------------------------------------- BTW, this list's discussion of the cosmos' conceivably being alive is thought-provoking. It leads one to think of parallel universes, time travel from the future, collective unconscious self-fulfilling prophecies, and other science fiction topics. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Nov 2 10:39:29 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 21:39:29 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] optimism study References: <20041102102626.34368.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04ab01c4c0c8$3b68c290$b8232dcb@homepc> Al Brooks wrote: >A Dutch research involving 900 men & women aged 65-85 > has concluded there is a 55% reduction in death by all > causes by the subject being optimistic; a 23% > reduction in death related to cardio-vascular > conditions by being optimistic. The healthy side of the power of positive thinking has been recognized for quite a while. Presumably that is part of the reason that placebos work to some extent. I read somewhere recently that depressed or pessimistic people make for more reliable eye witnesses at crime senses. (Sorry I don't have the source.) I think it was that optimists don't tend to see what actually happened but rather what they thought would probably have happened. I wonder how optimism/pessimism would correlate to IQ? Brett Paatsch From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 2 12:48:22 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 06:48:22 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory References: <20041102095004.91400.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001401c4c0da$3d0b70e0$e9ebfb44@kevin> Since when did things NOT go this way? This is the story of human civilization. 1999 Y2K bug Serbia Columbine school shootings Yugoslavia 1998 Worldwide financial crisis Indian and Pakistani nuclear weapons testing 1996 Mad Cow Disease 1995 Gas attack in Tokyo Subway Oklahoma City Bombing 1994 Rwandan Genocide Begins (Lorena Bobbit?) US troops to Haiti 1993 First WTC bombing WACO 1992 Los Angelos Riots 1991 Gulf War 1990 1989 Exxon Valdez Tiananmen Square 1988 Flight ? over Lockerbie Scotland My mind gets a bit foggy as I go backwards and forgive me if I miss the start date of some things by a year or two, but you get the point. Need I continue? What makes anyone think the last 4 years is anything but SSDD? Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Brooks" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:50 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory > Not to be alarmist, but since 2000 it's been one f-up > after another; dotcom bust, recession, Bush election, > 9-11, Enron-type reverses (yes, i know, 'creative > destruction'), misfired Iraq invasion. > It's enough to turn one to the remote possibility of > the 'Endtimes' Christians subscribe to. > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From maxm at mail.tele.dk Tue Nov 2 13:23:33 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:23:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <20041102095004.91400.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041102095004.91400.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41878A55.1090208@mail.tele.dk> Al Brooks wrote: >Not to be alarmist, but since 2000 it's been one f-up >after another; dotcom bust, recession, Bush election, >9-11, Enron-type reverses (yes, i know, 'creative >destruction'), misfired Iraq invasion. >It's enough to turn one to the remote possibility of >the 'Endtimes' Christians subscribe to. > Those are small fries seen over time. What has mattered the most for our current way of life, WWII or the phone? Positive technology is just a lot less dramatic. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Nov 2 13:53:56 2004 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 08:53:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Toronto Lecture by Keith Henson November 14, 2004 In-Reply-To: <200411020933.iA29XM026128@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20041102083852.032a8b60@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> I signed on this list a while back, but have been a bit too busy to participate much. In case you wonder what I have been up to in the last few years (besides trying to stay in Canada and away from scientology bounty hunters) I have been working on extensions to the paper you can find by putting _sex drugs cults_ in Google. The Sunday after next I am giving a talk in Toronto. It will be on evolutionary psychology and the origin of war. The talk will be November 14, 2004 at 1pm at the Unitarian Church at 175 St Clair Ave W Toronto, ON That's the same place that had a cryonics panel a year or so ago. If someone knows other places to put this announcement, please do. The last one (on cults) had a small attendance, though we did have someone who came all the way from Amsterdam and there was lots of interaction. I know there is not much chance of many living close enough to be able to come, but this also serves to let you know what I have been working on in my copious free time. Keith Henson **************** Abstract of talk Human population are observed to slowly oscillate between being dominated by rational memes and xenophobic/warlike, often disfunctional memes (religious and political such as communism). Why? I make the case that which class of memes dominates is dependent on the situation. A stressed population facing a bleak future will have a high gain setting for infecting those not caught up with xenophobic or "going to war" memes. Rationalist memes will prevail in situations of lower stress/worry. This meme switch mechanism has its origin in the millions of years the human line lived as hunter gatherers. It has the function of synchronizing a tribe's warriors to the ultimate effort to do or die in an attack on a neighboring tribe. (Irrespective of which side won, the hunter gatherer population pushing the ecological limits was thinned out.) "Thinned out populations" results in improving prospects and reduces the "gain setting" on the spread of xenophobic memes. This was seen in Northern Ireland, though not resulting from large scale deaths. In that case, a switch to a much lower birth rate a generation ago let economic growth exceed population growth. Rational memes slowly prevailed and support for the IRA faded out. My claim here is that the psychological switch into and out of war mode evolved in the stone age to be dependent on the difficulty of getting game and berries. Today the mode trigger maps (roughly) into income per capita, more particularly into changes in income per capita. This model has serious real world applications. Because of the high birth rate in the Palestinian population (and Islamic populations in general), and low economic growth, there is no resolution of the problems in the mid east in sight. The most likely (and grim) outcome is a population reducing spasm within the next decade similar to what happened in Rwanda unless some wild card such as nanotechnology becomes a major economic factor. From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Tue Nov 2 14:02:54 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:02:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <7a32170504110123566d047eba@mail.gmail.com> References: <041901c4c0aa$90a1c270$b8232dcb@homepc> <7a32170504110123566d047eba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't want to be negative, but if you examine the site it is clearly too close to call (and the site says as much). Kerry has a slight advantage in polling, but statistically this doesn't mean anything (i.e., its predictive value is so small to be discountable). Bush had an even larger margin in his favor in 2000 just before the election and look what happened there. If you look at the animated map its amazing how over the past few months either candidate could have won the election. Even in the last two weeks things have been flip-flopping around with first Bush and then Kerry leading over the course of a few days. A comparison of the predicted electoral college votes shows that in the last few weeks neither candidate has gained any sort of margin. Looks to me that either candidate is going to win by the slimmest of margins. best, patrick From bret at bonfireproductions.com Tue Nov 2 14:36:25 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:36:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <041901c4c0aa$90a1c270$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <041901c4c0aa$90a1c270$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <93146F95-2CDC-11D9-893F-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Not taking sides here, except the side of proper statistical viewing. If the majority of people on the internet in the US say they are going to vote for Kerry, that number is still a percentage of a minority of the US populace. I do not believe the majority of the US population surfs the web, especially not every day. True? There is probability that we will know by tomorrow morning. I don't know how to calculate it though. =) Bret Kulakovich On Nov 2, 2004, at 2:07 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Looks like a Kerry victory may be about to happen after all. > ? > I've been watching this site for a few weeks. > http://www.electoral-vote.com/?in the last couple of > days there seems to have been a heck of a lot of polls > and the trend of electoral-votes has been tending ever > so slightly towards a Kerry win. > ? > Brett > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1580 bytes Desc: not available URL: From es at popido.com Tue Nov 2 14:59:08 2004 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 15:59:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory Message-ID: <200411021459.iA2Ex8Y4020897@mail-core.space2u.com> This year more than half of the population of the world goes to the voting booth. Even though some countries aren't as democratic as their government would like them to appear, this is still a significant percentage of the globe and more than ever before. Famine is decreasing, average life span is increasing and the world as a whole is getting richer and richer. Even though bad things are happening, the general trend is that tomorrow will be a better day than today, which is a better day than yesterday. Erik On 2004-11-02 Kevin Freels wrote: Since when did things NOT go this way? This is the story of human >civilization. >1999 > Y2K bug > Serbia > Columbine school shootings > Yugoslavia >1998 > Worldwide financial crisis > Indian and Pakistani nuclear weapons testing >1996 > Mad Cow Disease >1995 > Gas attack in Tokyo Subway > Oklahoma City Bombing >1994 > Rwandan Genocide Begins > (Lorena Bobbit?) > US troops to Haiti >1993 First WTC bombing > WACO >1992 > Los Angelos Riots >1991 > Gulf War >1990 > >1989 > Exxon Valdez > Tiananmen Square >1988 > Flight ? over Lockerbie Scotland > >My mind gets a bit foggy as I go backwards and forgive me if I miss the >start date of some things by a year or two, but you get the point. Need I >continue? What makes anyone think the last 4 years is anything but SSDD? > >Kevin Freels > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Al Brooks" >To: "ExI chat list" >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:50 AM >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory > > >> Not to be alarmist, but since 2000 it's been one f-up >> after another; dotcom bust, recession, Bush election, >> 9-11, Enron-type reverses (yes, i know, 'creative >> destruction'), misfired Iraq invasion. >> It's enough to turn one to the remote possibility of >> the 'Endtimes' Christians subscribe to. >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. >> www.yahoo.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Nov 2 15:36:42 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:36:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Toronto Lecture by Keith Henson November 14, 2004 Message-ID: <323090-220041122153642632@M2W047.mail2web.com> Wishing you much success with your talk - Natasha Original Message: ----------------- From: Keith Henson hkhenson at rogers.com Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 08:53:56 -0500 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] Toronto Lecture by Keith Henson November 14, 2004 I signed on this list a while back, but have been a bit too busy to participate much. In case you wonder what I have been up to in the last few years (besides trying to stay in Canada and away from scientology bounty hunters) I have been working on extensions to the paper you can find by putting _sex drugs cults_ in Google. The Sunday after next I am giving a talk in Toronto. It will be on evolutionary psychology and the origin of war. The talk will be November 14, 2004 at 1pm at the Unitarian Church at 175 St Clair Ave W Toronto, ON That's the same place that had a cryonics panel a year or so ago. If someone knows other places to put this announcement, please do. The last one (on cults) had a small attendance, though we did have someone who came all the way from Amsterdam and there was lots of interaction. I know there is not much chance of many living close enough to be able to come, but this also serves to let you know what I have been working on in my copious free time. Keith Henson **************** Abstract of talk Human population are observed to slowly oscillate between being dominated by rational memes and xenophobic/warlike, often disfunctional memes (religious and political such as communism). Why? I make the case that which class of memes dominates is dependent on the situation. A stressed population facing a bleak future will have a high gain setting for infecting those not caught up with xenophobic or "going to war" memes. Rationalist memes will prevail in situations of lower stress/worry. This meme switch mechanism has its origin in the millions of years the human line lived as hunter gatherers. It has the function of synchronizing a tribe's warriors to the ultimate effort to do or die in an attack on a neighboring tribe. (Irrespective of which side won, the hunter gatherer population pushing the ecological limits was thinned out.) "Thinned out populations" results in improving prospects and reduces the "gain setting" on the spread of xenophobic memes. This was seen in Northern Ireland, though not resulting from large scale deaths. In that case, a switch to a much lower birth rate a generation ago let economic growth exceed population growth. Rational memes slowly prevailed and support for the IRA faded out. My claim here is that the psychological switch into and out of war mode evolved in the stone age to be dependent on the difficulty of getting game and berries. Today the mode trigger maps (roughly) into income per capita, more particularly into changes in income per capita. This model has serious real world applications. Because of the high birth rate in the Palestinian population (and Islamic populations in general), and low economic growth, there is no resolution of the problems in the mid east in sight. The most likely (and grim) outcome is a population reducing spasm within the next decade similar to what happened in Rwanda unless some wild card such as nanotechnology becomes a major economic factor. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 16:24:12 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:24:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] thanks, but i know all this In-Reply-To: <200411021459.iA2Ex8Y4020897@mail-core.space2u.com> Message-ID: <20041102162412.96451.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> All you responders, thank you for the reassurance. Yet, the war in West Asia (what we call the 'Middle East') is bad, very bad. Our worst since 1942. > This year more than half of the population of the > world goes to the voting booth. Even though some > countries aren't as democratic as their government > would like them to appear, this is still a > significant percentage of the globe and more than > ever before. Famine is decreasing, average life span > is increasing and the world as a whole is getting > richer and richer. > > Even though bad things are happening, the general > trend is that tomorrow will be a better day than > today, which is a better day than yesterday. > > > Erik > > > On 2004-11-02 Kevin Freels wrote: > > Since when did things NOT go this way? This is the > story of human > >civilization. > >1999 > > Y2K bug > > Serbia > > Columbine school shootings > > Yugoslavia > >1998 > > Worldwide financial crisis > > Indian and Pakistani nuclear weapons testing > >1996 > > Mad Cow Disease > >1995 > > Gas attack in Tokyo Subway > > Oklahoma City Bombing > >1994 > > Rwandan Genocide Begins > > (Lorena Bobbit?) > > US troops to Haiti > >1993 First WTC bombing > > WACO > >1992 > > Los Angelos Riots > >1991 > > Gulf War > >1990 > > > >1989 > > Exxon Valdez > > Tiananmen Square > >1988 > > Flight ? over Lockerbie Scotland > > > >My mind gets a bit foggy as I go backwards and > forgive me if I miss the > >start date of some things by a year or two, but you > get the point. Need I > >continue? What makes anyone think the last 4 years > is anything but SSDD? > > > >Kevin Freels > > > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Al Brooks" > >To: "ExI chat list" > > >Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 3:50 AM > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry > victory > > > > > >> Not to be alarmist, but since 2000 it's been one > f-up > >> after another; dotcom bust, recession, Bush > election, > >> 9-11, Enron-type reverses (yes, i know, 'creative > >> destruction'), misfired Iraq invasion. > >> It's enough to turn one to the remote possibility > of > >> the 'Endtimes' Christians subscribe to. > >> > >> > >> > >> __________________________________ > >> Do you Yahoo!? > >> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > >> www.yahoo.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Tue Nov 2 16:34:32 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 08:34:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory Message-ID: <20041102163432.DD1E557E2A@finney.org> Brett Paatsch writes: > Looks like a Kerry victory may be about to happen after all. > > I've been watching this site for a few weeks. > http://www.electoral-vote.com/ in the last couple of > days there seems to have been a heck of a lot of polls > and the trend of electoral-votes has been tending ever > so slightly towards a Kerry win. The betting markets are still pretty split. IEM has 51%/50% for the two, http://128.255.244.60/quotes/78.html (based on adding the two DEM04 and REP04 average prices). Tradesports has it 54%/48% for Bush v Kerry, http://www.tradesports.com/ . Keep in mind these are estimated chances of victory, not margins. The markets are still saying that it is essentially a coin flip which one will win. BTW adding the _G52 prices for the IEM gives the odds that one candidate will win with greater than 52% of the popular vote, which would be a relatively decisive victory. IEM estimates 32% for this, so it certainly can't be ruled out. In other words, the markets are NOT predicting razor-thin margins, but rather that there is too much uncertainty to know who will win. In 2000, changing fewer than 1000 votes in one state (Florida) would have changed the outcome. I predict that will not happen this time; that in the final results, no single state will be such that changing < 1000 votes will change the overall victor. This is just based on probabilities; with many millions of voters in large states, it's unlikely that the result will be that close, and when you combine it with the need for the overall electoral balance to be so close that one state could tip it, the odds seem low. Hal From jpnitya at verizon.net Tue Nov 2 17:00:00 2004 From: jpnitya at verizon.net (Joao Magalhaes) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 12:00:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cancer-resistant mice age normally Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20041102115245.01f11d48@receptor.med.harvard.edu> Hi, It looks like cancer-resistant mice have a normal lifespan and age normally. http://www.genesdev.org/cgi/reprint/gad.310304v1 (subscription required) Here's a link to the story on BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3971103.stm This is a very nice work by Manuel Serrano's group in Madrid as it shows that increasing cellular defences against damage, while influencing cancer, does not impact on aging. What it tells me is that aging is not merely a result from damage accumulation. It also raises questions on the link between cancer and aging--one which I've argued for in the past. All the best, Joao --- Joao Pedro de Magalhaes, PhD Harvard Medical School, Dept. of Genetics Avenue Louis Pasteur, 77, Room 238 Boston, MA 02115 Telephone: 1-617-432-6550 http://www.senescence.info From hal at finney.org Tue Nov 2 17:08:42 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 09:08:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] optimism study Message-ID: <20041102170842.C5BE157E2A@finney.org> Al Brooks writes: > A Dutch research involving 900 men & women aged 65-85 > has concluded there is a 55% reduction in death by all > causes by the subject being optimistic; a 23% > reduction in death related to cardio-vascular > conditions by being optimistic. You always have to worry about correlation vs causation in such studies. I'm sure they controlled for health, but even so there could be problems. Maybe the people who felt an intangible and unmeasurable sense of health were inherently and justifiably more optimistic, while those who had a sense of bodily weakness and vulnerability would be more pessimistic. Then the study might be measuring how well people could sense their own prospects for longevity. If so, just forcing yourself to be optimistic would not do anything to extend your life. Hal From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Nov 2 17:11:31 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 11:11:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] LIMBOIDS In-Reply-To: <4187559E.2020605@mail.tele.dk> References: <418589B6.31E41C99@mindspring.com> <008601c4c051$0c1da590$f4b41b97@administxl09yj> <4187559E.2020605@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102110905.01bdfb08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:38 AM 11/2/2004 +0100, Max M wrote: >I think that the most basic thing that different life forms has in common >is that they can postpone entropy. The usual formulation is that living structures--actively and systematically--*export* entropy. (But then don't stars do that too?) Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 18:27:50 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:27:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: <20041101230627.9248.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041102182750.17640.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > Okay...so how do you prevent managers from cashing > out the company between reports and leaving > shareholders with an empty bag? If the managers obtain their stock via employee purchase or options programs, they would be required to only buy or sell stock in the month or two AFTER the annual or bi-annual report is released. Anyone who purchases stock on the open market could buy and sell whenever they want. > Granted, that does > sometimes happen now, but it's a lot easier to do over > the course of a year than over the course of three > months...and one can report on quarterly progress > towards a long-term goal, noting milestones met (or > missed) on the long-term project plan. (And any > project, even a long-term one, needs a plan to have a > good chance of success. Ones that last for months are > often broken down into days, so theoretically ones > that last for years should be able to be broken into > three-month segments, no?) I'd generally discourage this. The reporting system is so frequently used by corporations to collude at a distance with their competitors to exploit the consumer that I'd say that either all companies in a given industry report on the same day, or else the four largest competitors in a market must report 3 months apart from each other. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 18:34:49 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:34:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] 1908 asteroid In-Reply-To: <20041102024059.76674.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041102183449.24742.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > this link theorizes the 1908 asteroid explosion over > Siberia was > approximately 500 kilotons, i.e. equivalent to large > hydrogen bomb. The article reassuringly states that > such an asteroid 'impact', about six kilometers up in > the atmosphere, might occur over a populated area > every 3600 years. > http://www.psi.edu/projects/siberia/siberia.html I'm wondering if they've counted a similar but smaller bolide event in the 19th century in the midwestern US. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 18:42:55 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:42:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] optimism study In-Reply-To: <20041102170842.C5BE157E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20041102184255.68023.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Cripes, did you read about yesterday's assassination of Vincent Van Gogh's great grand nephew in Amsterdam for collaborating with someone on a film exploring the abuse of women in Islamic nations? It's enough to make one want to crawl in a hole and pull the hole in afterwards. > Dutch research involving 900 men & women aged 65-85 > has concluded there is a 55% reduction in death by all > causes by the subject being optimistic; a 23% > reduction in death related to cardio-vascular > conditions by being optimistic. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 18:43:12 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:43:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bin Laden Wants to Bankrupt U.S. In-Reply-To: <006101c4c09f$4b327eb0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20041102184312.26202.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> He also said that states that voted for Bush would be attacked, those that did not would be safe. Is it any wonder that ABC refused to release the tape before the election? --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > "So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy > bled, and > Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his > future," bin > Laden said.: > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 2 18:58:51 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:58:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bin Laden Wants to Bankrupt U.S. References: <20041102184312.26202.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023e01c4c10d$fe966020$e9ebfb44@kevin> AHA! So if Bush wins and certain states are attacked, it becomes ABC's fault!!! lol At least that's the logic they used when critics of Bush decided that the WTC attacks were the fault of Bush and the CIA. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 12:43 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bin Laden Wants to Bankrupt U.S. > He also said that states that voted for Bush would be attacked, those > that did not would be safe. Is it any wonder that ABC refused to > release the tape before the election? > > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > "So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy > > bled, and > > Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his > > future," bin > > Laden said.: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html > > > > Olga > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 18:58:48 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:58:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn Message-ID: <20041102185848.31420.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> For those of you nay-sayers, the NH Public Radio exit poll has Libertarian Rich Kahn getting 11% of the vote in the 2nd district congressional race. This is the best showing of any Libertarian in NH history for a federal election, and shows that we can play with the big dogs if we get organized and work together in a positive, rational, and mature manner. We also want to thank all the support of FSP members who helped out in big ways and small throughout the campaign, especially those who helped ensure Rich got on the ballot in the first place, in spite of the best efforts of the statist saboteurs. Spread the word far and wide: The FSP is kicking butt and taking names. Get YOUR butt to New Hampshire. The new American Revolution is starting, and it's starting in New Hampshire. I held a Kahn sign at the Amherst polls from 6 AM to 1 pm today, and about 5% stopped to specifically tell me they'd voted for Rich, including a number of conservatives and liberals who are sick of the two party system and want us to be a viable third party. It appears that Rich's success is coming at the Democrats expense (despite the conventional wisdom). Paul Hodes exit poll results show him getting only 29% of the vote, while Charlie Bass, the perpetual rubber fish of NH politics, continues to repel the competition with a solid majority of the vote. This achievement is in keeping with our goal of turning the Democrats into a third party if they continue to attack us, rather than working with us on common issues. WE CAN ACHIEVE LIBERTY IN OUR LIFETIME, IN NEW HAMPSHIRE. Won't you join us? Come, live what you believe. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Tue Nov 2 18:58:20 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:58:20 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bin Laden Wants to Bankrupt U.S. In-Reply-To: <20041102184312.26202.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041102184312.26202.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <29A61E6F-2D01-11D9-99ED-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 2 Nov 2004, at 19:43, Mike Lorrey wrote: > He also said that states that voted for Bush would be attacked, those > that did not would be safe. Is it any wonder that ABC refused to > release the tape before the election? So the moral here is to be very careful about answering exit polls from guys with beards... best, patrick From sentience at pobox.com Tue Nov 2 19:05:33 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:05:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] optimism study In-Reply-To: <04ab01c4c0c8$3b68c290$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <20041102102626.34368.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <04ab01c4c0c8$3b68c290$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <4187DA7D.8020705@pobox.com> Brett Paatsch wrote: > Al Brooks wrote: > >> A Dutch research involving 900 men & women aged 65-85 has concluded >> there is a 55% reduction in death by all causes by the subject being >> optimistic; a 23% reduction in death related to cardio-vascular >> conditions by being optimistic. > > The healthy side of the power of positive thinking has been recognized > for quite a while. Presumably that is part of the reason that placebos > work to some extent. I read somewhere recently that depressed or > pessimistic people make for more reliable eye witnesses at crime senses. Thou shalt not confuse correlation and causation. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Nov 2 19:14:13 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:14:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] optimism study In-Reply-To: <4187DA7D.8020705@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20041102191413.33617.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > The healthy side of the power of positive thinking has been > recognized > > for quite a while. Presumably that is part of the reason that > placebos > > work to some extent. I read somewhere recently that depressed or > > pessimistic people make for more reliable eye witnesses at crime > senses. > > Thou shalt not confuse correlation and causation. Unless, of course, you are correlating a cynical attitude toward optimism with stress-factors.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From samantha at objectent.com Tue Nov 2 19:19:30 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 11:19:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bin Laden Wants to Bankrupt U.S. In-Reply-To: <20041102184312.26202.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041102184312.26202.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1F1ECB0F-2D04-11D9-ABE7-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> That's odd. I didn't see that in the offshore transcripts I read. I'll look again. -s On Nov 2, 2004, at 10:43 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > He also said that states that voted for Bush would be attacked, those > that did not would be safe. Is it any wonder that ABC refused to > release the tape before the election? > > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > >> "So the war went ahead, the death toll rose, the American economy >> bled, and >> Bush became embroiled in the swamps of Iraq that threaten his >> future," bin >> Laden said.: >> >> http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html >> >> Olga >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From hal at finney.org Tue Nov 2 20:34:48 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:34:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory Message-ID: <20041102203448.6F51C57E2A@finney.org> Some interesting mid-day election news. Drudge (www.drudgereport.com) is reporting, "Exit poll mania spread through media and campaign circles Tuesday afternoon after first wave of morning data showed Kerry competitive in key states.... National Election Pool -- representing six major news organization -- shows Kerry in striking distance -- with small lead -- in Florida and Ohio, sources tell DRUDGE... But early sample was based on a 59- 41 women to men ratio..." Drudge has a history of leaking exit poll data. Mainstream media voluntarily agrees to refrain from publishing these results until the polls have closed. Perhaps based on this new data, the betting markets have closed up. Tradesports, which had Bush at 55, is now at 50.1/50 for Bush/Kerry. IEM has now put Kerry ahead slightly, for the first time in months, at 50.5/51.2. Of course, to play broken record, all this really means is that the markets still see a coin flip. Hal From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Nov 2 21:15:38 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:15:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: Limboids Message-ID: <4187F8FA.8A130B37@mindspring.com> From: Kyle King To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:12 -0600 Subject: Re: Limboids >From: Terry W. Colvin >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto >Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700 >Subject: Limboids >Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss. >Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2 >http://www.science-frontiers.com >Biology >Limboids >What, if anything, separates life from non-life? To be alive, it >is widely promulgated that such entities must metabolize, >reproduce, and evolve in the Darwinian sense. It is also >popularly believed that living matter is intrinsically different >from nonliving matter, although one no longer speaks of "the >breath of life" or of an "elan vital". Even so, knowing all we >now know, there does still 'seem' to be a fundamental gap >between life and non-life. Is this gap illusory or perhaps >filled by entities of which we are not yet aware? >(3) The metabolisms of limboids are too slow and their lifetimes >too long (millions of years) for us to discern them. In other >words, they 'seem' inanimate. (This potential attribute was >suggested by P. Gunkel.) >(4) The lifetimes of limboids may be too short for us to >register them. >(5) The limboids live outside the ranges of our eyes and >instruments. >(6) The limboids may incorporate considerable dark matter and be >hard to detect. Conceivably some manifestations of dark matter >could exist in recognized visible organisms and perform >organizing functions that "breathe life" into inanimate matter! >Scientists have not seriously looked for limboids, but they may >have caught fleeting glimpses of them, and "laid them back in >the closet," as Omar mused poetically. Hi Terry, Excellent post and kudos to Mr. Corliss for his generosity. This idea of what constitutes life has intrigued me for some time. I remember in geometry class, dimensions were illustrated this way... A point or line is one-dimensional A square or polygon is two-dimensional A cube or polyhedron is 3-dimensional What comes next cannot be drawn or modeled in 3 dimensions, so we can only create crude approximations or envision them in our minds. We know mathematically that the 4th-dimensional cube or tesseract exists, yet we have no ready means by which to show it. The usual description goes like, "a cube with a cube at each of its faces". This sounds good, and a "shadow" of it can be drawn or modeled with sticks and Styrofoam, but the implications of how such an object would behave in our perceivable 3- dimensional world are completely hidden, since that aspect cannot be modeled in anything less than 4 dimensions. In the context of this thread, it is interesting that as we say that we are alive, we explain this by describing the components... mostly water, some minerals, proteins, and some barely understood electro-chemical processes which seem to result in a persistent sense of "being". Also, an entire ecosystem of bacteria, virii, etc that either depend on the host, or on which the host depends, or both. In this context, I find the earth itself aptly described as a life -form. Mostly water, minerals, proteins, electro-chemical processes, beneficial and non-beneficial parasitic ecosystems, etc. Likewise, I find the idea that life could be related to the dark matter very compelling, and the strong sense that as we cannot accurately model in 3 dimensions what exists in 4, we very likely could have life all around us that we simply are not equipped to see, or detect. Is it possible that the dark matter is connective tissue for a life-form which is as vast as the universe itself? I don't mean to sound new-age, and I'm obviously not the first to propose the living earth idea, but is it possible that the universe is alive, and that multi-timelines are an evolved process of survival, and that the planets are merely organelles or sensors, populated by smaller and smaller ecosystems? Is it possible that dimensions are not finite, but a product of natural selection on a cosmic scale? Is it possible that this evolution includes the rise and fall of life forms in all dimensions and on all timelines? If the dark matter is truly the connective tissue of the cosmic "dude", is it possible that clairvoyance, UFOs, abductions, etc could all have at their root the natural mutations of this cosmic dude, or by the inadvertent overlapping of dimensions, and the crossing of timelines either through design or misadventure? If we could find the means to communicate in a direct and universally comprehendible way, we might tap into knowledge of which we cannot even imagine. We might also find an answer to Prophecy, ESP, UFOs, abduction, etc. We may evolve right along with the cosmic dude. Could the "fleeting glimpses" of dark matter mentioned in the article be analogous to the similar fleeting glimpses of UFOs, aliens, and other anomalous things in our collective experience? Limboids could be the very fabric of reality. I guess we'd be some form of mutation. The discomforting question is whether we represent an evolutionarily beneficial mutation, or a cancer. Great thought-provoking post. Thank you. Kyle -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Nov 2 21:18:06 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:18:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: Limboids Message-ID: <4187F98E.B125C154@mindspring.com> From: Rich Reynolds To: ufoupdates at virtuallystrange.net Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 22:38:12 -0500 Subject: Re: Limboids >From: Kyle King >To: >Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 10:32:12 -0600 >Subject: Re: Limboids >>From: Terry W. Colvin >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto >>Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700 >>Subject: Limboids >>Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss. >>Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2 >>http://www.science-frontiers.com >>Biology >>Limboids >Great thought-provoking post. Thank you. And without invoking quantum mechanics/theory, what about Teilhard de Chardin or Lecomte du Nouy (even Spengler) where the biology of the universe is intermingled with the mystical (dare I say spiritual), and a kind of theology explains life in ways that can account for things seen in the sky or paranormally? The movie "The Incredible Shrinking Man" provided a view of Kyle King's fabric of reality, but it was the Pre-Socratic Greek philosophers and the great Schopenhauer that formulated the concept of life infusing all things, even rocks. I would go far afield to mention more here, but this web-site might enlighten further Kyle and those who find that there are more things in heaven and earth than dreamt..... < http://www.icpd.org/science/future.html > Rich Reynolds -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Nov 2 21:20:41 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 14:20:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: Limboids Message-ID: <4187FA29.78512E7E@mindspring.com> From: Bruce Maccabee To: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2004 23:46:26 -0500 Subject: Re: Limboids >From: Terry W. Colvin >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto >Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:56:22 -0700 >Subject: Limboids >Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss. >Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 2 >http://www.science-frontiers.com >Biology >Limboids >What, if anything, separates life from non-life? To be alive, it i>s widely promulgated that such entities must metabolize, >reproduce, and evolve in the Darwinian sense. It is also >popularly believed that living matter is intrinsically different >from nonliving matter, although one no longer speaks of "the >breath of life" or of an "elan vital". Even so, knowing all we >now know, there does still 'seem' to be a fundamental gap >between life and non-life. Is this gap illusory or perhaps >filled by entities of which we are not yet aware? >Comments. But humans and their instruments do not observe >everything. There may be an unappreciated limbo separating life >from non-life. This limbo could be occupied by entities that >we'll call "limboids." Science may not yet recognize this >hypothesized realm of the natural world because: >(1) The limboids are too small - smaller than the controversial >nonolife and still inaccessible to today's science. >(2) The limboids are too large for us to grasp intellectually or >instrument-wise. >F. Hoyle's fictional "black cloud" would be an example. >(3) The metabolisms of limboids are too slow and their lifetimes >too long (millions of years) for us to discern them. In other >words, they 'seem' inanimate. (This potential attribute was >suggested by P. Gunkel.) >(4) The lifetimes of limboids may be too short for us to >register them. >(5) The limboids live outside the ranges of our eyes and >instruments. >(6) The limboids may incorporate considerable dark matter and be >hard to detect. Conceivably some manifestations of dark matter >could exist in recognized visible organisms and perform >organizing functions that "breathe life" into inanimate matter! These speculations as to why "limboids" have not been discovered parallel the comments I have made regarding the "search for the intellecton", where the intellecton is defined as the minimum- sized (whatever that "size" means) element of inteligence or intellect. For example, I ask the question, what if an electron is intelligent? Would we ever know? Only by its actions I suppose. But what if it did something intelligent in a femtosecond. It's action would be over before we could measure it. What is an electron only did an intelligent act over a period of millions of seconds. Would it be so slow as to be undetectable? These comments wouldn't apply just to an electron, but to any subunit (including complex combinations of atoms) that might exhibit elementary intelligence. Is a protein that changes shape "intelligent"? For further amusing details see: < http://brumac.8k.com/AbductionInLife/INTELLECTON.html > -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From rhanson at gmu.edu Tue Nov 2 21:37:08 2004 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 16:37:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <20041102203448.6F51C57E2A@finney.org> References: <20041102203448.6F51C57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102162632.01de4520@mail.gmu.edu> At 03:34 PM 11/2/2004, you wrote: >Perhaps based on this new data, the betting markets have closed up. >Tradesports, which had Bush at 55, is now at 50.1/50 for Bush/Kerry. >IEM has now put Kerry ahead slightly, for the first time in months, >at 50.5/51.2. Of course, to play broken record, all this really means >is that the markets still see a coin flip. Markets are now almost 2:1 in favor of Kerry. IEM is about 67%, while Tradesports is at 63%. You heard it here first. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From hal at finney.org Tue Nov 2 21:48:32 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 13:48:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: Limboids Message-ID: <20041102214832.D3F8957E2A@finney.org> Another idea along these lines is the suggestion that earlier eras of our universe could have had life of a form which could not exist today. In the post-Big-Bang time frame the universe went through a number of transitions even before stars began to form. Of course, by our standards that time was incredibly hot, and chaotic, and violent, and it's hard to see how any stable structures could form. But "stable" is a relative term and even a very short-lived structure might be considered stable by the standards of the era. Similarly in the far future, when matter has decayed and all that is left are black holes, photons and the occasional electron and positron, maybe it is conceivable that life could exist, incredibly huge and incredibly slow, based on extremely large scale patterns and interactions built of these elements. The idea of super-fast microscopic life has been explored in a couple of science fiction stories I have read. One is Dragon's Egg by Robert Forward, where condensed-matter beings evolve on the surface of a neutron star. They develop a civilization and even visit Earth but are not detected there. They eventually have a kind of Singularity that takes them out of the picture. Another is Greg Bear's Blood Music, where genetic engineering creates intelligent cells. They begin to explore the world and take over Earth in a matter of days, before going through a Singularity and vanishing. When you think of how human life has transformed the world in the blink of an eye by geological time standards, it's kind of scary to think of another form of life springing up that is comparably faster than we are. No doubt it's quite unlikely to happen just at this moment, though. Hal From rhanson at gmu.edu Tue Nov 2 22:33:30 2004 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:33:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry to win, 2.5 to 1 Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> Tradesports, IEM, Betfair give Kerry a 71 to 74% chance to win. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From sentience at pobox.com Tue Nov 2 22:49:31 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:49:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry to win, 2.5 to 1 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <41880EFB.7080405@pobox.com> Robin Hanson wrote: > Tradesports, IEM, Betfair give Kerry a 71 to 74% chance to win. [Eliezer] Whoa! Robin Hanson says that the markets are breaking 2:1 in favor of Kerry. IEM at 67%, Tradesports at 63%. Maybe they're not worth rotten petunias for predicting the outcome a month in advance, but they might be good indicators of who's winning on Election Day - we'll have to see. "Quick, dump your Bush shares! The markets must know something!" Bandwagon in the markets is probably one of the most pronounced of all, hehe. [Eliezer] True. yeah, those markets are reactionary like the early exit polling that showed Kerry leading with totally non-representative internals sent the markets plummeting including NYSE/NASDAQ [Eliezer] hold on, non-representative intervals don't change the Bayesian interpretation of the data - if it swings wider than expected given the bias, that's evidence *internals* [Eliezer] ok, what's non-representative internals mean? meaning that the sample population was not representative in this case 60/40 women/men among other things I've seen some analysis that normalized the internals on those exit polls which gave Bush +1-3, depending on the method Exit polls are pretty bad anyway not a good track record in many cases (your favorite is Kerry?) My favorite is Cthulhu Or maybe Kodos [Eliezer] heh, I was just about to say Kodos -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From Walter_Chen at compal.com Wed Nov 3 00:16:15 2004 From: Walter_Chen at compal.com (Walter_Chen at compal.com) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:16:15 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (UFO UpDate) Re: Limboids Message-ID: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7EDB0@tpeex05> It's quite reasonable for me if both the biggest macroscopic level (universe itself) and the smallest microscopic level (subatomic) exhibit some similar basic features (such as consciousness or life). I think this is a kind of correspondence principle. Thanks. Walter. --------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Nov 3 00:22:22 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 17:22:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 1908 asteroid References: <20041102183449.24742.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418824BE.B00741EB@mindspring.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Al Brooks wrote: > > > this link theorizes the 1908 asteroid explosion over > > Siberia was > > approximately 500 kilotons, i.e. equivalent to large > > hydrogen bomb. The article reassuringly states that > > such an asteroid 'impact', about six kilometers up in > > the atmosphere, might occur over a populated area > > every 3600 years. > > http://www.psi.edu/projects/siberia/siberia.html > > I'm wondering if they've counted a similar but smaller bolide event in > the 19th century in the midwestern US. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey Mike, Details please of this bolide. Below is another bolide event. Terry Forwarding permission was given by William R. Corliss. Science Frontiers, No. 156, Nov-Dec, 2004, p. 3 < http://www.science-frontiers.com > GEOLOGY The Vitim bolide event On the night of September 24-25, 2002, an energetic bolide streaked across the Irkutsk region of Russia near the Vitim River. The event was reminiscent of the more powerful 1908 Tunguska event. Consequently, Russian scientists quickly began gathering testimony and dispatching ground expeditions. Although we are interested mainly in the havoc wrought at the impact site, it is also interesting to review some of the curious phenomena accompanying the bolide's passage. * Luminous displays lasting several days in the direction of the presumed impact site. These were called "glow rays" by the inhabitants. * All-sky brightening even in clouded areas. * Filament lamps glowed during the bolide's passage. * St. Elmos fire emanated from the tops of fence poles. * Background radiation increased 60 kilometers from the impact site. * Afterwards, the temporary worsening of the health of inhabitants of the area. * The snow and water became bitter (!). * Tritium concentration in the region's water increased. Photos taken at the presumed impact site remind one not only of ground zero of the Tunguska event but also of recently blasted sites in remote Brazil (1930) and elsewhere. (See *Science Frontiers II* for collected descriptions.) (Ol'khovatov, Andrei; "Vitim Bolide Event," *Meteorite*, 10:30, February 2004. Comments. It is curious that: (1) That there are so many apparent recent impact events. (2) That said events always seem to occur in remote, hard-to-access areas. (3) That well-defined craters are rarely found. Instead there is devastated vegetation with little ground disturbance. (4) That meteoritic material is also rarely found. [Science Frontiers is a bimonthly collection of digests of scientific anomalies in the current literature. Published by the Sourcebook Project, P.O. Box 107, Glen Arm, MD 21057. Annual subscription: $8.00.] -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 00:51:41 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 16:51:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102162632.01de4520@mail.gmu.edu> References: <20041102203448.6F51C57E2A@finney.org> <6.1.2.0.2.20041102162632.01de4520@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <7a32170504110216514272d21e@mail.gmail.com> Here's another site for those waiting with baited breath: http://news.yahoo.com/electionresults By the way, does anybody happen to know any election voodoo curses that might help sway things? I'm getting desperate. Thanks Zero From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 02:37:31 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 18:37:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] good riddance to bad trash Message-ID: <20041103023731.6596.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> At least that religious lunatic Alan Keyes is defeated by Obama in Illinois. Good riddance to Keyes, may he never run for office again. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Nov 3 03:02:22 2004 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 22:02:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Now Bush to win 1.5:1 Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102215544.01ded930@mail.gmu.edu> At 5:33 EST I wrote: >Tradesports, IEM, Betfair give Kerry a 71 to 74% chance to win. Tradesports now gives Bush a 62% of winning. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Nov 3 03:24:04 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:24:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Democracy in action! Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102211840.01aa8640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Yahoo's data as of now: Candidate Electoral States Won Vote % Votes Bush 195 22 52% 21,533,444 Kerry 112 11 47% 19,684,284 So it take Kerry 175,753 votes to get an electoral vote, and Bush 110,428. Democracy in action! From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Nov 3 03:40:55 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:40:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Democracy in action! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102211840.01aa8640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041103034055.15221.qmail@web81204.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > So it take Kerry 175,753 votes to get an electoral > vote, and Bush 110,428. > > Democracy in action! Yep, if everyone stopped counting now. But those are actual popular vote counts so far, but projected electoral votes. It will be very different when it's all over. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Nov 3 03:42:19 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2004 21:42:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Democracy in action! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102211840.01aa8640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102211840.01aa8640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102213847.01a34ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:24 PM 11/2/2004 -0600, I wrote: >So it take[s] Kerry 175,753 votes to get an electoral vote, and Bush 110,428. Before anyone gets hysterical and explains the principle of majority rule to me: I do understand that in principle one candidate could attract very nearly half the vote yet if the electorate were sufficiently homogenous might still gain *zero* electoral votes. But I reckon a proportional representation might work with less resentment from the excluded near-majority. Damien Broderick From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 03:59:22 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:59:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] religious liberty In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102213847.01a34ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041103035922.92988.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Religious organizations ought to keep their tax exempt status; they should have complete liberty to refuse medical treatment for religious reasons; they should have thorough freedom to worship-- if they want to dress up as ballerinas to church on Sunday morning and spray each other with whipped cream, that is fine. However I draw the line at them running for public office. Naturally they have the right to run for office, but anyone opposing them can do whatever they wish to maneuver against them, keep them out of office & vote them out if they are incumbents. To hell with them. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 06:35:35 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:35:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] religious liberty In-Reply-To: <20041103035922.92988.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102213847.01a34ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041103035922.92988.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504110222353420105d@mail.gmail.com> Uh, I'm no apologist for religious people. But, what are you saying? "Religious organizations" don't run for office. Religious people do. Personally I would be disinclined to vote for a Fairy Tale Believer, all other things being equal. But the things you advocate for people running against FTB's are applicable to any political candidate. Democrats do whatever they can to maneuver against Republicans, keep them out of office and vote them out if they are incumbents, and vice versa. And that's as it should be. On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 19:59:22 -0800 (PST), Al Brooks wrote: > > > > > Religious organizations ought to keep their tax exempt status; they should > have complete liberty to refuse medical treatment for religious reasons; > they should have thorough freedom to worship-- if they want to dress up as > ballerinas to church on Sunday morning and spray each other with whipped > cream, that is fine. However I draw the line at them running for public > office. Naturally they have the right to run for office, but anyone opposing > them can do whatever they wish to maneuver against them, keep them out of > office & vote them out if they are incumbents. To hell with them. > > ________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 06:42:10 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:42:10 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: <7a32170504110222422cbcbc91@mail.gmail.com> At least according to Matt Drudge. Looks like Ohio is going red. Anybody know where I can get a prescription for 4 years worth of Prozac? Zero From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 06:53:56 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:53:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <7a32170504110222422cbcbc91@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a32170504110222422cbcbc91@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204110222533d04d5a4@mail.gmail.com> Not in the US unfortunately. They are going to outlaw it since it is against natural law and interferes with God's plan for man. You can, of course, come to Europe to buy it. But in Europe we allow gay marriage, we allow stem cell research, we have a secular society, we have removed the word "God" from our Constitution, and we have recently kicked out a proposed Commissioner because he is a fundamentalist religious nut. Are you sure they will let you travel here? G. On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:42:10 -0800, Zero Powers wrote: > At least according to Matt Drudge. Looks like Ohio is going red. > Anybody know where I can get a prescription for 4 years worth of > Prozac? > > Zero From samantha at objectent.com Wed Nov 3 08:50:15 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 00:50:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] how partisanship skews perception In-Reply-To: <9D05F9DB-27F2-11D9-ABE7-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> References: <20041024024114.2442.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <9D05F9DB-27F2-11D9-ABE7-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <6154F0D4-2D75-11D9-ABE7-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Hi Arthur, For now I am more interested in learning what I can about how it is to be there and your opinion of whether there is a fit for me at Google. Shibani, Emmett and I are all on a T-90 at Vignette. They will keep us working 90 days beyond SF office termination for transition of knowledge and work. I just heard today that the majority of the work will be finishing full clustering. Clustering is near and dear to me despite being done for what is now all too obviously a sucky company. I am also working to get the ORM open sourced as it is one large important bit that they do not believe they can support themselves. There are a lot of other projects that I can and have thought up based on the ORM. Open sourcing it would insure Vignette it would continue to maintained, viable and evolving indefinitely. They lose a bit of IP but the IP isn't that huge as far as translating to real directly salable value. I have a fuller argument than I will go into here. Those I have talked to about it are all supportive although the more highly placed ones doubt Vignette will actually go for it. Here's hoping. So I am still here until Feb. 12. At that time I collect an additional 11 weeks of pay as severance plus sweetener for sticking around. During that time I will discipline myself to give Vignette proper only 40 hrs/wk of my time. For me this is very hard. The rest of the time will be spent on attempting to form a business possibly involving consulting but preferably (and certainly eventually) fielding a product based on one or more of my ideas. I am drawn toward producing a hosted product. If my evaluation of progress and prospects around mid-January doesn't look promising I will consider applying then. One thing at Google I am particular curious about is how the 1 day a week to work on your own project works out. Can it be anything you wish within some limits? What sort of limits? What kind of vetting is needed? How easy is it to use Google tools and resources to put a project up on Googles web or on some part of their servers like Orkut? Some of the things I would like to see built might be built fielded much more widely if I had space/tools/resources within Google to help spread it broadly. Otherwise I will just have to create something cool the hard way and have Google gobble it up after it has proven itself. :-) - samantha On Oct 27, 2004, at 1:31 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Oct 23, 2004, at 7:41 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> Firstly, they are not MY ultra-socialists. >> >> Secondly, I find your attitudes here rather wanting. If extropians are >> such big supporters of futures markets being the best predictors of >> facts and future events, and futures markets behave according to price >> signals created by mass consensus, and mass consensus is that Iraq was >> involved in al Qaeda, isn't that more true than the flawed >> intelligence >> agencies conclusions that totally missed the events leading up to 911? >> > > Whoa. You believe that mass consensus created by the administration, > in large from whole cloth, means that that mass consensus determines > what is actually true? Surely you are joking. > > The administration itself severely restricted some of those agencies > from doing their jobs regarding terrorism before 9/11. Do you think > those agencies and everything they say should be discredited because > they were not allowed to do their jobs? > > I am not capable of believing that you believe what you are writing. > Or maybe I lack a compatible sense of humor. > > - samantha > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Nov 3 09:49:36 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:49:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry to win, 2.5 to 1 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: On 2 Nov 2004, at 23:33, Robin Hanson wrote: > Tradesports, IEM, Betfair give Kerry a 71 to 74% chance to win. This seems to suggest that markets don't necessarily make good short term predictions. best, patrick From amara at amara.com Wed Nov 3 10:17:43 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:17:43 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the future. I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly separated the American people from their government, and expected the Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in the world. On a more personal note, as a holder of a US and Latvian passport, the shift in these last years is that I only use my US passport when I travel to the US, because the "baggage" of the US government is not something I like to carry in my dealings with people in my everyday life. I never had a good answer when someone wants to know where I am "from" (Hawaii, Wisconsin, California, Colorado, Latvia, Germany, Greece all fit to some degree, but California the most). Unfortunately my Italian paperwork lists US as my citizenship, so I'm illegal for the last year, with an expired permit-of-stay, grouped with Australians, New Zealanders, Canadians, Japanese, Africans, South Americans.... (the nonEU world) who are in a quagmire in the collapsed Italian Bossi-Fini immigration law. Therefore, given the US political situation now, I will begin to shift my Italian bureaucratic papers to my Latvian citizenship (even with Italy's new restrictions on the new EU member countries), since I think that holding a US passport will mostly hurt me now. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From scerir at libero.it Wed Nov 3 10:35:26 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:35:26 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... References: Message-ID: <000401c4c190$d5bc5f00$aebf1b97@administxl09yj> [Amara] > I am so disappointed. > How could Bush win the popular vote? Kerry leads overseas. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/10/15/world_poll/index_np.html Is this one of the reasons? s. From sentience at pobox.com Wed Nov 3 10:30:43 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 05:30:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry to win, 2.5 to 1 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <4188B353.5090906@pobox.com> Robin Hanson wrote: > Tradesports, IEM, Betfair give Kerry a 71 to 74% chance to win. Today's experiment... failed. It disturbs me that with millions of dollars to spend and all the sophisticated apparatus of statistics, we can't predict the outcome of an election. It makes one wonder about the latest study showing that broccoli does (not) prevent cancer. At least with elections, you find out when you're wrong. I wonder how much marginal science is similarly bogus. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Wed Nov 3 10:40:06 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:40:06 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: good trick In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041103104001.CBCEECE5F@vscan02.westnet.com.au> www.dslextreme.com/users/exstatica/psychic.swf Good trick....based on a simple idea, but nicely put together... I think it's been around for a while, so apologies if it's redundant. I'm looking for things to distract me from the US election results.. Sean From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 10:45:11 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:45:11 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:17:43 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the future. > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be > much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in > the world. > Bush won the popular vote in the face of unremitting opposition from virtually all the liberal, intellectual writers and artists. All the opinion columns, media sources, leader writers, etc. in US and around the world have been almost unanimous in opposition to Bush. Why? I suspect that a lot of the Bush support comes from people who never read the writers output. I think they are writing for each other, mutual support and back-scratching. One theory is that the liberal intellectuals (especially European, but world-wide) have been lost for years since the failure of socialism and they have now united in anti-Americanism. Kerry has been trying to say that it is not really anti-Americanism, that it is anti-Bushism. (Vote for me and the world will love the US again!) But this is hardly believable. If you accept the 'War on Terror' then regardless of who is President, the anti-Americanism will continue. And Bush is better at the 'War on Terror' than Kerry would have been. BillK From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Nov 3 11:53:47 2004 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 06:53:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Now Bush to win 1.5:1 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102215544.01ded930@mail.gmu.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102215544.01ded930@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041103064342.01f4b9c8@mail.gmu.edu> Well the betting markets made a big reversal last night, from up to almost 75% in favor of Kerry, now down to a 5% chance for Kerry (even that looks too high, so I finally made my first election bet). Of course we should expect this sort of reversal at least 1/4 of the time, so one can't be too stunned. But this does at least raise a small suspicion that theses markets were too volatile due to over-confidence. However, one case won't really show this - we have to look at statistics over many events to see if there's a trend. In the end the important question is comparative - are there any other institutions that on average do better? So far direction comparisons between markets and other institutions in the field have favored markets. And real and play money have come out about the same. But the jury is still out. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 12:38:56 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 04:38:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Looks like a Kerry victory In-Reply-To: <7a32170504110216514272d21e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041103123856.23665.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > Here's another site for those waiting with baited breath: > > http://news.yahoo.com/electionresults > > By the way, does anybody happen to know any election voodoo curses > that might help sway things? I'm getting desperate. Looks like a Bush victory. Oops..... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Nov 3 12:45:45 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:45:45 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Now Bush to win 1.5:1 References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102215544.01ded930@mail.gmu.edu> <6.1.2.0.2.20041103064342.01f4b9c8@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <062001c4c1a3$095e1fd0$b8232dcb@homepc> Robin Hanson wrote: > Well the betting markets made a big reversal last night, from up > to almost 75% in favor of Kerry, now down to a 5% chance for > Kerry (even that looks too high, so I finally made my first election > bet). > > Of course we should expect this sort of reversal at least 1/4 of > the time, so one can't be too stunned. But this does at least raise > a small suspicion that theses markets were too volatile due to > over-confidence. I don't follow. I don't get how you are thinking of "over-confidence". If you are speaking with your economists hat on could you please elaborate a bit. I'd have thought that efficient markets would be indifferent to "over-confidence". How could "over-confidence" have produced too much volatility? > However, one case won't really show this - we have to look at > statistics over many events to see if there's a trend. > > In the end the important question is comparative - are there any > other institutions that on average do better? So far direction > comparisons between markets and other institutions in the field > have favored markets. And real and play money have come > out about the same. But the jury is still out. I honestly 'reckoned' at the time that I posted that Kerry was more likely to win. (I don't think so now). I didn't bet real money myself. I wrote at the time another email that I kept but didn't post that my reckoning at the time when I thought Kerry would win because I wanted to see if there was meritorious method in it afterwards regardless of whether or not Kerry won. There's no value for me in being right by just luck. Anyway, I have long thought that real money would make me and others a lot more serious about our predictions. I'd be very interested in a finding to the contrary as its SO counter-intuitive. Do you really think real and play money have come out the same? That would be extraordinary I think. Brett Paatsch From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 13:05:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:05:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Democracy in action! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102211840.01aa8640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041103130527.89207.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > Yahoo's data as of now: > > Candidate Electoral States Won Vote % Votes > > Bush 195 22 52% 21,533,444 > Kerry 112 11 47% 19,684,284 > > So it take Kerry 175,753 votes to get an electoral vote, and Bush > 110,428. That is a really interesting way of putting it Damien. I believe you've hit upon a good metric of measuring race winners: how much they have to pay for a vote, how many votes buy an electoral vote, and how much money the candidates raise and spend.... it then becomes purely a microeconomic equation that any college freshman could figure out. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 13:08:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:08:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] religious liberty In-Reply-To: <20041103035922.92988.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041103130819.28104.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > > Religious organizations ought to keep their tax exempt status; they > should have complete liberty to refuse medical treatment for > religious reasons; they should have thorough freedom to worship-- if > they want to dress up as ballerinas to church on Sunday morning and > spray each other with whipped cream, that is fine. However I draw the > line at them running for public office. Naturally they have the right > to run for office, but anyone opposing them can do whatever they wish > to maneuver against them, keep them out of office & vote them out if > they are incumbents. To hell with them. At 'them' who? Priests? Or just people with religious beliefs? Don't you realize that your atheism therefore disqualifies you, because it is as much a superstition as those that worship guys who hang from trees? An opponent is of course free to campaign however he or she wants. What the public thinks of their tactics, though, will determine the election. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 13:26:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:26:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Now Bush to win 1.5:1 In-Reply-To: <062001c4c1a3$095e1fd0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20041103132636.84831.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > > I don't follow. I don't get how you are thinking of > "over-confidence". > If you are speaking with your economists hat on could you please > elaborate a bit. > > I'd have thought that efficient markets would be indifferent to > "over-confidence". > > How could "over-confidence" have produced too much volatility? a) Some players in the markets cared more about creating public perception that could create PR synergies rather than whether or not the lost money. If you still have $20 million in your campaign chest on election morning, are you going to buy more ads, or try to tweak the markets to convince people that you are the winner? b) Coin tosses are the most volatile markets around, you are either winning or losing. c) Polls being produced by so many sources, of such varying quality and accuracy, and in many cases, commissioned to try to invent PR synergies, left the bayesian market clouded by FUD, produced by disinformation and imprecise measurement. When you are trying to guage a winner by trying to decide who is lying less, you have a very volatile market. > > I honestly 'reckoned' at the time that I posted that Kerry was more > likely to win. (I don't think so now). > > I didn't bet real money myself. I wrote at the time another email > that I kept but didn't post that my reckoning at the time when I > thought > Kerry would win because I wanted to see if there was meritorious > method in it afterwards regardless of whether or not Kerry won. > There's no value for me in being right by just luck. > > Anyway, I have long thought that real money would make me and > others a lot more serious about our predictions. I'd be very > interested > in a finding to the contrary as its SO counter-intuitive. > > Do you really think real and play money have come out the same? > That would be extraordinary I think. Depends on how much you bet. A gentlemans bet of $10 isn't going to mean anything. If you bet $1000 I think you'd put a lot more rational analysis into making a good decision. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Nov 3 13:42:54 2004 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 08:42:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Now Bush to win 1.5:1 In-Reply-To: <062001c4c1a3$095e1fd0$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102215544.01ded930@mail.gmu.edu> <6.1.2.0.2.20041103064342.01f4b9c8@mail.gmu.edu> <062001c4c1a3$095e1fd0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041103083445.02e35af8@mail.gmu.edu> At 07:45 AM 11/3/2004, you wrote: >>Well the betting markets made a big reversal last night, ... this does at >>least raise >>a small suspicion that theses markets were too volatile due to >>over-confidence. > >I don't follow. I don't get how you are thinking of "over-confidence". >I'd have thought that efficient markets would be indifferent to >"over-confidence". >How could "over-confidence" have produced too much volatility? If when the true probability is 20% you think 10%, when the true chance is 40% you think 20%, when the true chance is 60% you think 80%, and when the true chance is 80% you think 90%, you are overconfident. If the true chances followed a rational random walk, then your overconfidence chances would be too volatile. If the prices reflected overconfident beliefs they would make a buy low sell high strategy profitable. >Anyway, I have long thought that real money would make me and >others a lot more serious about our predictions. I'd be very interested >in a finding to the contrary as its SO counter-intuitive. >Do you really think real and play money have come out the same? >That would be extraordinary I think. The few studies that have been done so far have found that. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prediction Markets: Does Money Matter? Electronic Markets September 2004, vol. 14, no. 3, pp. 243-251(9) Emile Servan-Schreiber[1]; Justin Wolfers[2]; David M. Pennock[3]; Brian Galebach[4] The accuracy of prediction markets has been documented both for markets based on real money and those based on play money. To test how much extra accuracy can be obtained by using real money versus play money, we set up a real-world online experiment pitting the predictions of TradeSports.com (real money) against those of NewsFutures.com (play money) regarding American Football outcomes during the 2003-2004 NFL season. As expected, both types of markets exhibited significant predictive powers, and remarkable performance compared to individual humans. But, perhaps surprisingly, the play-money markets performed as well as the real-money markets. We speculate that this result reflects two opposing forces: real-money markets may better motivate information discovery while play-money markets may yield more efficient information aggregation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 13:54:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:54:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041103135418.89804.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. > Also, > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the > future. I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will > be much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many > in the world. I suspect most of your friends would fall into that class of people that are referred to as "the chattering class". There are a lot of New Yorkers, for example, who don't know a single Republican personally. They create these insular lives where they only associate with individuals in the media, the arts, or academia, who reflect their own views, so no fact checking occurs. Enclave consensus can significantly differ from reality if no rational intelligence gathering occurs. > since I think that holding a US passport will mostly hurt me now. Europe thought the same of Reagan, and were rewarded with the collapse of the iron curtain. They should be so fortunate again. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:18:19 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:18:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103135418.89804.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103135418.89804.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204110306182914b25e@mail.gmail.com> Mike, Europe never thought the same of Reagan. Most Europeans, myself included, think that all things considered he was a good president. What we don't like of Bush is the fact that he wants to take the US and the world back to the middle ages concerning the respective roles of reason and religion in public affairs. I follw with interest your Free State project, and wish you all the best. But it will not be in a fundamentalist theocratic US that you will achieve it. More likely, the Iranian-style theocracy that the US is becoming will declare Holy War against the Free State: you see, there is the risk that the Free State will pass laws too favorable to same sex marriage and stem cell research. You call yourself a Libertarian. I don't, but I always appreciated many elements of Libertarian thinking. In particular, "Live and Let Live". You can do whatever you like in your house, and I will not complain as long as you don't objectively harm me. With the caveat that "objective harm" does NOT include sleeping with a same sex partner under your own roof. That is, if I understand libertarianism, just your business and not mine. Now tell me: do you see much libertarianism in the policies advocated by the Bush administration? Have to agree on the rest of your note, some reality check is always useful. G. On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 05:54:18 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > --- Amara Graps wrote: > > > > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. > > Also, > > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the > > future. I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will > > be much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of > many > > in the world. > > I suspect most of your friends would fall into that class of people > that are referred to as "the chattering class". There are a lot of New > Yorkers, for example, who don't know a single Republican personally. > They create these insular lives where they only associate with > individuals in the media, the arts, or academia, who reflect their own > views, so no fact checking occurs. Enclave consensus can significantly > differ from reality if no rational intelligence gathering occurs. > > > > since I think that holding a US passport will mostly hurt me now. > > Europe thought the same of Reagan, and were rewarded with the collapse > of the iron curtain. They should be so fortunate again. From amara at amara.com Wed Nov 3 14:21:00 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:21:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: to Mike Lorrey's peculiar response.. >I suspect most of your friends would fall into that class of people >that are referred to as "the chattering class". Very well educated ? (worldwide, including Americans) Perhaps it is true that they don't know many 'Republicans' (whatever that is). It's universally true that my friends and colleagues (worldwide) don't like the actions of Bush administration. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Stupidity got us into this mess, so why can't it get us out?" -- Will Rogers From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:22:54 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:22:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] California backs stem cell move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c5204110306222b931261@mail.gmail.com> California looks set to become the first US state to provide funding for stem cell research, medical experiments that involve human embryos. Early returns from a ballot in the state show voters have approved $3bn-worth of funding to last 10 years. President Bush and religious groups had strongly opposed stem cell research on moral grounds. Supporters of the research said it could help find cures for deadly diseases and spinal cord injuries. Early counts of voting in the ballot, held in conjunction with the presidential vote and known as proposition 71, showed it set to be approved by 60% of California voters. Supporters said the ballot's approval was needed to get around funding restrictions imposed by the Bush administration. The campaign won the backing of California's Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, despite the opposition of the president and the Republican party. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3977347.stm From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:32:01 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:32:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: It would be nice if Europe would allow some sort of reverse immigration from the US. I'd love to move to europe for a few years, but getting a work permit is next to impossible. What EU countries allow gay marriage? That's news I hadn't heard yet. BAL >From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 >To: Zero Powers , ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:53:56 +0100 > >Not in the US unfortunately. They are going to outlaw it since it is >against natural law and interferes with God's plan for man. >You can, of course, come to Europe to buy it. But in Europe we allow >gay marriage, we allow stem cell research, we have a secular society, >we have removed the word "God" from our Constitution, and we have >recently kicked out a proposed Commissioner because he is a >fundamentalist religious nut. >Are you sure they will let you travel here? >G. > >On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:42:10 -0800, Zero Powers >wrote: > > At least according to Matt Drudge. Looks like Ohio is going red. > > Anybody know where I can get a prescription for 4 years worth of > > Prozac? > > > > Zero >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:35:35 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:35:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: It seemed like a lot of anti-Bush sentiment prior to the election was by dems, for dems. Take F9/11 for example: anti-Bushers loved it, pro-Bushers hated it. I don't know anyone who changed their opinion because of it. I now suspect that stuff like Fareinheight 9/11 galvanized republicans to vote to counteract perceived increase in democrats voting. What puzzles me is how so many first time voters went for Bush. I expected all of the increase in new voter registrations to be anti-Bush. Wierd. BAL >From: BillK >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:45:11 +0000 > >On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:17:43 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, > > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the >future. > > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be > > much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in > > the world. > > > >Bush won the popular vote in the face of unremitting opposition from >virtually all the liberal, intellectual writers and artists. All the >opinion columns, media sources, leader writers, etc. in US and around >the world have been almost unanimous in opposition to Bush. > >Why? I suspect that a lot of the Bush support comes from people who >never read the writers output. I think they are writing for each >other, mutual support and back-scratching. > >One theory is that the liberal intellectuals (especially European, but >world-wide) have been lost for years since the failure of socialism >and they have now united in anti-Americanism. Kerry has been trying to >say that it is not really anti-Americanism, that it is anti-Bushism. >(Vote for me and the world will love the US again!) But this is hardly >believable. > >If you accept the 'War on Terror' then regardless of who is President, >the anti-Americanism will continue. And Bush is better at the 'War on >Terror' than Kerry would have been. > >BillK >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From amara at amara.com Wed Nov 3 14:42:08 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:42:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: Brian Lee brian_a_lee at hotmail.com : >I'd love to move to europe for a few years, but getting a work >permit is next to impossible. Did you try? Amara From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 14:43:49 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:43:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c520411030643347dcc61@mail.gmail.com> A few Nordic countries allow gay marriage since years and many others, including Spain (Viva Zapatero!) will pass appropriate laws soon. Yes you can come back and we will welcome you with open arms (there are workarounds for the work permit thing you know). On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:32:01 -0500, Brian Lee wrote: > It would be nice if Europe would allow some sort of reverse immigration from > the US. I'd love to move to europe for a few years, but getting a work > permit is next to impossible. > > What EU countries allow gay marriage? That's news I hadn't heard yet. > > BAL > > >From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > >To: Zero Powers , ExI chat list > > > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:53:56 +0100 > > > >Not in the US unfortunately. They are going to outlaw it since it is > >against natural law and interferes with God's plan for man. > >You can, of course, come to Europe to buy it. But in Europe we allow > >gay marriage, we allow stem cell research, we have a secular society, > >we have removed the word "God" from our Constitution, and we have > >recently kicked out a proposed Commissioner because he is a > >fundamentalist religious nut. > >Are you sure they will let you travel here? > >G. > > > >On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:42:10 -0800, Zero Powers > >wrote: > > > At least according to Matt Drudge. Looks like Ohio is going red. > > > Anybody know where I can get a prescription for 4 years worth of > > > Prozac? > > > > > > Zero > > > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From etcs.ret at verizon.net Wed Nov 3 15:29:09 2004 From: etcs.ret at verizon.net (stencil) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:29:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Futures markets volatility In-Reply-To: <200411031248.iA3Cm0008070@tick.javien.com> References: <200411031248.iA3Cm0008070@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <1vsho09tf1g7emgr05gqu4dck6bsjntlv9@4ax.com> In extropy-chat Digest, Vol 14, Issue 4 >------------------------------ Robin Hanson and Brett Paatsch: >> But this does at least raise >> a small suspicion that theses markets were too volatile due to >> over-confidence. > >I don't follow. I don't get how you are thinking of "over-confidence". >If you are speaking with your economists hat on could you please >elaborate a bit. > >I'd have thought that efficient markets would be indifferent to >"over-confidence". > >How could "over-confidence" have produced too much volatility? > > >> However, one case won't really show this - we have to look at >> statistics over many events to see if there's a trend. >> >> Minuscule as it may be, the population that participates in futures markets is far from homogeneous. Stategy Pages's market http://www.strategypage.com/prediction_market/default.asp (before they yanked the Bush/Kerry lines last night) showed a consistent expectation that Kerry would lose and that Bush would win. My late neighbor lady, two doors down the hill, eponymous first victim of the Kael Syndrome, surely was not the last. (To her credit, some feel she may have speaking ironically of her own, revealed, provincialism.) While we could wish that markets operate in a fluid medium of information, there is still a great deal of viscosity and turbulence. Hopefully, this season's major harvest will be the spreading realization that the prophet is not the deity and that CBS in fact means "Can't Believe." stencil sends From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Nov 3 15:30:59 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 16:30:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103135418.89804.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103135418.89804.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5C96258E-2DAD-11D9-99ED-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 3 Nov 2004, at 14:54, Mike Lorrey wrote: > I suspect most of your friends would fall into that class of people > that are referred to as "the chattering class". Mike: I am not sure that calling someone (or at least their friends) a member of the "chattering class" is particularly nicer than saying that their friends are a bunch of dumb rednecks who don't know any better. I don't think its appropriate on list to say such things. > Europe thought the same of Reagan, and were rewarded with the collapse > of the iron curtain. They should be so fortunate again. I thought you thought Bush was the lesser of two evils. Do you think that he is going to achieve great and positive things in the next four years? He seems so anti-libertarian on so many levels that I find it weird that you would actually have anything positive to say about him. What do you think the lasting positive legacy of Bush's presidency is going to be? best, patrick From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 15:51:39 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:51:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Immigrate to Europe Message-ID: Thanks for the response. Do you have any specific info or web sites that give information on work arounds. I investigated a little bit back when there was opportunity for tech work visas, but I didn't go to the length of contacting an EU lawyer. For someone with a background in tech/programming, what are the options available? This isn't as a response to the recent election, but something I've been thinking about for years. BAL >From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 >To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:43:49 +0100 > >A few Nordic countries allow gay marriage since years and many others, >including Spain (Viva Zapatero!) will pass appropriate laws soon. >Yes you can come back and we will welcome you with open arms (there >are workarounds for the work permit thing you know). > >On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:32:01 -0500, Brian Lee >wrote: > > It would be nice if Europe would allow some sort of reverse immigration >from > > the US. I'd love to move to europe for a few years, but getting a work > > permit is next to impossible. > > > > What EU countries allow gay marriage? That's news I hadn't heard yet. > > > > BAL > > > > >From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > >To: Zero Powers , ExI chat list > > > > > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:53:56 +0100 > > > > > >Not in the US unfortunately. They are going to outlaw it since it is > > >against natural law and interferes with God's plan for man. > > >You can, of course, come to Europe to buy it. But in Europe we allow > > >gay marriage, we allow stem cell research, we have a secular society, > > >we have removed the word "God" from our Constitution, and we have > > >recently kicked out a proposed Commissioner because he is a > > >fundamentalist religious nut. > > >Are you sure they will let you travel here? > > >G. > > > > > >On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:42:10 -0800, Zero Powers > > >wrote: > > > > At least according to Matt Drudge. Looks like Ohio is going red. > > > > Anybody know where I can get a prescription for 4 years worth of > > > > Prozac? > > > > > > > > Zero > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >extropy-chat mailing list > > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Nov 3 16:16:14 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:16:14 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001601c4c1c0$746a1f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Amara Graps > Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote?... Ja, Badnarik did rather poorly everywhere outside New Hampshire. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 16:22:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:22:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204110306182914b25e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041103162238.20078.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Mike, Europe never thought the same of Reagan. Most Europeans, myself > included, think that all things considered he was a good president. You couldn't tell it by what showed up on television. European protests against Reagan's stubbornness toward the USSR were a nightly staple of the network news here in the 80's. You can say now that he was a good president, now that his legacy is paying its profits, but the europeans I saw on the TV back then certainly did not like him at all. > What we don't like of Bush is the fact that he wants to take the US > and the world back to the middle ages concerning the respective roles > of reason and religion in public affairs. > I follw with interest your Free State project, and wish you all the > best. But it will not be in a fundamentalist theocratic US that you > will achieve it. More likely, the Iranian-style theocracy that the US > is becoming will declare Holy War against the Free State: you see, > there is the risk that the Free State will pass laws too favorable to > same sex marriage and stem cell research. I can tell you categorically that Libertarians here will never support the expenditure of public funds for non-defense scientific research that a significant number of taxpayers believe is tantamount to murder. Whether they are right nor not is immaterial, and I hope you folks finally are as rational as you claim you are to understand this point: forcing someone to pay for something they regard as extremely morally abhorrent, which is not crucial to their self defense, is wrong. > You call yourself a Libertarian. I don't, but I always appreciated > many elements of Libertarian thinking. In particular, "Live and Let > Live". You can do whatever you like in your house, and I will not > complain as long as you don't objectively harm me. With the caveat > that "objective harm" does NOT include sleeping with a same sex > partner under your own roof. That is, if I understand libertarianism, > just your business and not mine. > Now tell me: do you see much libertarianism in the policies advocated > by the Bush administration? I see Bush's tax cuts, being as they were engineered by ATR Chairman Grover Norquist, who was a libertarian activist in college, as one tactic in forcing government to grow smaller, to downsize. Grover once said, "I'm not against government, I just want to shrink it down small enough that I can drag it into the bathroom and strangle it in the tub." That is a pretty libertarian statement. Before 9/11, Bush said that nation building isn't our job. That is also a pretty libertarian statement, which you europeans vilified him for (and now you are vilifying him for going the other way). Bush says that stem cell research is not national defense related, so the government has no business funding it. He is not opposed to private stem cell research and has not supported any measures which would ban private research. That is also a libertarian point of view. Bush is by no means a real libertarian, but he is still, despite everything, far better than that royalist, Kerry. I didn't vote for Bush, but I still can state that he is still the lesser of two evils, by a huge margin. If you think that Kerry will be better for stem cell research, just wait until his wife's trusts fund the luddites that will start bombing cloning and other stem cell research labs when they finally start producing some significant results. They are going to use bioterrorism to force this research into hiding in government labs, where the state will control research to focus on using it for totalitarian purposes. I happen to work with a fellow who worked with Kerry in the VVAW anti-war movement after he (my friend) got back from Vietnam where he served in the special forces. He verifies everything the Swift Boat guys are saying, and he also verifies a lot of stuff about Kerry's treasonous activities. > Have to agree on the rest of your note, some reality check is always > useful. THanks. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 16:25:11 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:25:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041103162511.81598.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > to Mike Lorrey's peculiar response.. > > >I suspect most of your friends would fall into that class of people > >that are referred to as "the chattering class". > > Very well educated ? (worldwide, including Americans) > > Perhaps it is true that they don't know many 'Republicans' (whatever > that is). It's universally true that my friends and colleagues > (worldwide) don't like the actions of Bush administration. So you live in a self-reinforcing memeset that never fact checks with a cultural group outside your own, because you have a built in immune system that presumes that your greater education makes you smarter than anybody else and that therefore your opinions are therefore more correct. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Nov 3 16:26:51 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:26:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Immigrate to Europe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A8A7C45-2DB5-11D9-99ED-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> I should also say that Australia is always looking for smart tech savvy immigrants. And although we are willing to follow America into war (like a little French poodle wagging its tail as it follows behind its master) we are generally more liberal on the sorts of issues that those who see the evil in current Whitehouse abhor. best, patrick On 3 Nov 2004, at 16:51, Brian Lee wrote: > Thanks for the response. Do you have any specific info or web sites > that give information on work arounds. > > I investigated a little bit back when there was opportunity for tech > work visas, but I didn't go to the length of contacting an EU lawyer. > > For someone with a background in tech/programming, what are the > options available? > > This isn't as a response to the recent election, but something I've > been thinking about for years. > > BAL > >> From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 >> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... >> Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:43:49 +0100 >> >> A few Nordic countries allow gay marriage since years and many others, >> including Spain (Viva Zapatero!) will pass appropriate laws soon. >> Yes you can come back and we will welcome you with open arms (there >> are workarounds for the work permit thing you know). >> >> On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 09:32:01 -0500, Brian Lee >> wrote: >> > It would be nice if Europe would allow some sort of reverse >> immigration from >> > the US. I'd love to move to europe for a few years, but getting a >> work >> > permit is next to impossible. >> > >> > What EU countries allow gay marriage? That's news I hadn't heard >> yet. >> > >> > BAL >> > >> > >From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 >> > >To: Zero Powers , ExI chat list >> > > >> > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... >> > >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 07:53:56 +0100 >> > > >> > >Not in the US unfortunately. They are going to outlaw it since it >> is >> > >against natural law and interferes with God's plan for man. >> > >You can, of course, come to Europe to buy it. But in Europe we >> allow >> > >gay marriage, we allow stem cell research, we have a secular >> society, >> > >we have removed the word "God" from our Constitution, and we have >> > >recently kicked out a proposed Commissioner because he is a >> > >fundamentalist religious nut. >> > >Are you sure they will let you travel here? >> > >G. >> > > >> > >On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 22:42:10 -0800, Zero Powers >> >> > >wrote: >> > > > At least according to Matt Drudge. Looks like Ohio is going >> red. >> > > > Anybody know where I can get a prescription for 4 years worth of >> > > > Prozac? >> > > > >> > > > Zero >> > >> > >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >extropy-chat mailing list >> > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 16:31:06 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:31:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <5C96258E-2DAD-11D9-99ED-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20041103163106.63480.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > What do you think the lasting positive legacy of Bush's presidency is > going to be? When the LP VP candidate, Richard Campagna, asked me what I thought would ensure the success of the FSP, I said, "Patriot Acts II, III, IV, and V, or conversely, Brady Act II, III, and IV". Seeing as Bush's tax cuts were engineered by Grover Norquist, who has a libertarian history, I have begun to suspect that there is a group of individuals in the Bush camp which would be entirely happy with the entire collapse of the US federal system, if it does not willingly subject itself to a major downsizing, perhaps individuals who want to bring about the sort of monetary collapse that Neal Stephenson predicted as the prelude to the setting of his novel Snow Crash. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Nov 3 16:29:34 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:29:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103162511.81598.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103162511.81598.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8BE1A93B-2DB5-11D9-99ED-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 3 Nov 2004, at 17:25, Mike Lorrey wrote: > So you live in a self-reinforcing memeset that never fact checks with a > cultural group outside your own, because you have a built in immune > system that presumes that your greater education makes you smarter than > anybody else and that therefore your opinions are therefore more > correct. Am I the only one who sees any irony here? :) p. From namacdon at ole.augie.edu Wed Nov 3 16:35:10 2004 From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 10:35:10 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: <1099499710.73242580namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Mike Lorrey wrote: >If you think that Kerry will be better for stem cell research, just >wait until his wife's trusts fund the luddites that will start bombing >cloning and other stem cell research labs when they finally start >producing some significant results. They are going to use bioterrorism >to force this research into hiding in government labs, where the state >will control research to focus on using it for totalitarian purposes. Mike, that has to be the most paranoid, idiotic thing you've ever said on this list. (Funny, many people have called me paranoid, but every time I read one of Mike's posts I realize just how rational and mainstream my thinking really is...) The likelyhood of this fantasy occuring is about nil. -Nicq MacDonald From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 16:43:52 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:43:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] religious liberty In-Reply-To: <20041103130819.28104.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041103164352.8240.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Yes it does; all i want, relating to the topic of religion, is for those such as Alan Keyes to be so kind as to not to run for office and stick to reading the bible. He is the right wing equivalent of leftwing ideologues running in the Democratic Party. >Don't you realize that your atheism therefore disqualifies you, because it is >as much a superstition as those that worship guys who hang from trees? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 16:47:56 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <001601c4c1c0$746a1f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20041103164756.41092.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Why? because America is basically old-fashioned. We got into high tech because the Soviets were interested in it after Sputnik. > Amara Graps > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 16:54:32 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:54:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] religious liberty In-Reply-To: <7a32170504110222353420105d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041103165432.43835.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Yes. You're right Anyway I don't like leftist ideologues anymore than wingnuts like Alan Keyes. The lesson is to run a moderate who has a war record. Zero Powers wrote:Uh, I'm no apologist for religious people. But, what are you saying? "Religious organizations" don't run for office. Religious people do. Personally I would be disinclined to vote for a Fairy Tale Believer, all other things being equal. But the things you advocate for people running against FTB's are applicable to any political candidate. Democrats do whatever they can to maneuver against Republicans, keep them out of office and vote them out if they are incumbents, and vice versa. And that's as it should be. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 16:58:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <1099499710.73242580namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Message-ID: <20041103165810.23987.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Nicholas Anthony MacDonald wrote: > > Mike, that has to be the most paranoid, idiotic thing you've ever > said on this list. (Funny, many people have called me paranoid, but > every time I read one of Mike's posts I realize just how rational and > mainstream my thinking really is...) The likelyhood of this fantasy > occuring is about nil. It has already happened, Niq, which contradicts your presumption of rationality. She funded the Ruckus Society's boot camp for luddite terrorists. Documented fact, verified by the Tides Center's own public online statements. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Nov 3 17:08:01 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:08:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103163106.63480.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103163106.63480.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3 Nov 2004, at 17:31, Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Patrick Wilken wrote: >> What do you think the lasting positive legacy of Bush's presidency is >> going to be? > > Seeing as Bush's tax cuts were engineered by Grover Norquist, who has a > libertarian history, I have begun to suspect that there is a group of > individuals in the Bush camp which would be entirely happy with the > entire collapse of the US federal system, if it does not willingly > subject itself to a major downsizing, perhaps individuals who want to > bring about the sort of monetary collapse that Neal Stephenson > predicted as the prelude to the setting of his novel Snow Crash. So you think that Bush's lasting legacy is going to be that he is essentially going to bankrupt America and by so doing lead to a Libertarian revolution? best, patrick From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Nov 3 17:13:56 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:13:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <001601c4c1c0$746a1f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <001601c4c1c0$746a1f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: Yes, sadly, he did. I think too many folks who might have voted for him were running scared and picked the "lesser of two evils" of the Big Two. :( This time I managed not to do that and felt much better with myself when I left the voting booth. Regards, MB On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Spike wrote: > > Ja, Badnarik did rather poorly everywhere outside > New Hampshire. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Nov 3 17:21:03 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:21:03 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] California backs stem cell move In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204110306222b931261@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5204110306222b931261@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: They'd better look out. Just see what goes on (and on and on) with the "Death with Dignity" movement in Oregon. :/ Mr. Ashcroft just won't let up. Regards, MB On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > California looks set to become the first US state to provide funding > for stem cell research, medical experiments that involve human embryos. > Early returns from a ballot in the state show voters have approved > $3bn-worth of funding to last 10 years. > President Bush and religious groups had strongly opposed stem cell > research on moral grounds. From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:28:42 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 17:28:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <20041102185848.31420.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041102185848.31420.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:58:48 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > For those of you nay-sayers, the NH Public Radio exit poll has > Libertarian Rich Kahn getting 11% of the vote in the 2nd district > congressional race. This is the best showing of any Libertarian in NH > history for a federal election, and shows that we can play with the big > dogs if we get organized and work together in a positive, rational, and > mature manner. > > It appears that Rich's success is coming at the Democrats expense > (despite the conventional wisdom). Paul Hodes exit poll results show > him getting only 29% of the vote, while Charlie Bass, the perpetual > rubber fish of NH politics, continues to repel the competition with a > solid majority of the vote. This achievement is in keeping with our > goal of turning the Democrats into a third party if they continue to > attack us, rather than working with us on common issues. > I see the final results are: Charles F. Bass * (R) 191,031 59% Paul Hodes (D) 123,393 38% Richard Kahn (Lib.) 11,258 3% So you managed to get 11,258 to vote Lib. This is probably still a record for the Lib party, but rather far from turning the Dems into a third party. Looks like your objective of 20,000 Libs moving to NH will be too small on its own to change the state politics. I think you have quite a few more years of persuasion ahead of you yet. BillK From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 17:31:37 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:31:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: References: <001601c4c1c0$746a1f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <7a321705041103093132977a46@mail.gmail.com> I briefly considered voting for Badnarik only because here in Cali, Kerry was a sure thing. But then I thought better of it. I want to be on record as having voted for Kerry when the nation looks back 4 years from now wondering how in the world we let things get to what they'll surely get to. I plan to proudly display one of those bumper stickers that says: "Don't blame me, I voted for Kerry." On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:13:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time), MB wrote: > > Yes, sadly, he did. I think too many folks who might have voted for > him were running scared and picked the "lesser of two evils" of the > Big Two. :( > > This time I managed not to do that and felt much better with myself > when I left the voting booth. > > Regards, > MB > > > > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Spike wrote: > > > > > Ja, Badnarik did rather poorly everywhere outside > > New Hampshire. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Wed Nov 3 17:46:19 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:46:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... References: Message-ID: <005101c4c1cd$07154f30$af1e4842@kevin> This is so simple that I don;t know why people here don;t get it. If Kerry actually believed what he says, and his future actions could be easily predicted, he wouldn't have had a problem. It seems like everyone here but MIke Lorrey compares Bush's policies with what Kerry says his policies would be. This comparison is made while ignoring the fact that John Kerry doesn;t have a clue where he stands on any of the issues. He says what he thinks people want to hear to elect him and you fall for it every time. He flips and flops. The bottom line is that he is unpredictable. If he had said "I am going to pull out of Iraq and put that money into MNT", you would be excited, but do you honestly think he would follow through? If you actually think that he would do as he says, you are basing that on faith (or something like it) instead of logic. The fact is, no matter how much I dislike many of Bush's policies, I can predict what he is going to do. I know where he stands. There are many places where I am at odds with him, particularly stem cell research, cloning, foreign policy, and gay marriage. But for all I know, Kerry is most likely lying about his stance on these things. He has taken both sides on these issues and you have only heard him say what you wanted to hear hiim say. He is also just as guilty of invoking "God" at every turn....unless he is addressing a secular crowd. When faced with an unpredictable character and a predictable one, most people will choose the predictable one. This is why I preferred the known evil of Bush over the unknown evil of Kerry. Although I don;t have any polling data that says so, my gut tells me that the swing voters went Bush'd way for that same reason. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara Graps" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:17 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the future. > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be > much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in > the world. > > On a more personal note, as a holder of a US and Latvian passport, the > shift in these last years is that I only use my US passport when I > travel to the US, because the "baggage" of the US government is not > something I like to carry in my dealings with people in my everyday > life. I never had a good answer when someone wants to know where I am > "from" (Hawaii, Wisconsin, California, Colorado, Latvia, Germany, Greece > all fit to some degree, but California the most). Unfortunately my > Italian paperwork lists US as my citizenship, so I'm illegal for the > last year, with an expired permit-of-stay, grouped with Australians, > New Zealanders, Canadians, Japanese, Africans, South Americans.... (the > nonEU world) who are in a quagmire in the collapsed Italian Bossi-Fini > immigration law. Therefore, given the US political situation now, I will > begin to shift my Italian bureaucratic papers to my Latvian citizenship > (even with Italy's new restrictions on the new EU member countries), > since I think that holding a US passport will mostly hurt me now. > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Nov 3 18:07:52 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:07:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Democracy in action! In-Reply-To: <20041103130527.89207.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041102211840.01aa8640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041103130527.89207.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041103120446.01c41ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 05:05 AM 11/3/2004 -0800, Mike L., not a member of the chattering classes, wrote: > > > So it take Kerry 175,753 votes to get an electoral vote, and Bush > > 110,428. > >That is a really interesting way of putting it Damien. And as it turned out a highly misleading one. At 99% counted, I see the popular vote is 58,659,922 for Bush to 55,124,616 for Kerry, which is rather convincing. Damien Broderick From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 18:12:36 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:12:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <005101c4c1cd$07154f30$af1e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041103181236.48190.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> The main point of electoral politics is to check power-seekers. Everything else comes after, so i don't care much how double-dealing Kerry was. There's no virtue in politics, it's business, it's about cutting the power-hungry down to size. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > This is so simple that I don;t know why people here > don;t get it. > If Kerry actually believed what he says, and his > future actions could be > easily predicted, he wouldn't have had a problem. It > seems like everyone > here but MIke Lorrey compares Bush's policies with > what Kerry says his > policies would be. This comparison is made while > ignoring the fact that John > Kerry doesn;t have a clue where he stands on any of > the issues. He says what > he thinks people want to hear to elect him and you > fall for it every time. > He flips and flops. The bottom line is that he is > unpredictable. If he had > said "I am going to pull out of Iraq and put that > money into MNT", you would > be excited, but do you honestly think he would > follow through? If you > actually think that he would do as he says, you are > basing that on faith (or > something like it) instead of logic. > > The fact is, no matter how much I dislike many of > Bush's policies, I can > predict what he is going to do. I know where he > stands. There are many > places where I am at odds with him, particularly > stem cell research, > cloning, foreign policy, and gay marriage. But for > all I know, Kerry is most > likely lying about his stance on these things. He > has taken both sides on > these issues and you have only heard him say what > you wanted to hear hiim > say. He is also just as guilty of invoking "God" at > every turn....unless he > is addressing a secular crowd. > > When faced with an unpredictable character and a > predictable one, most > people will choose the predictable one. This is why > I preferred the known > evil of Bush over the unknown evil of Kerry. > Although I don;t have any > polling data that says so, my gut tells me that the > swing voters went Bush'd > way for that same reason. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amara Graps" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:17 AM > Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > > > > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the > popular vote? I don't > > understand this; no one I spoke with here > understands it either. Also, > > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with > nonAmericans in the future. > > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans > simply made a > > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, > and so they cleanly > > separated the American people from their > government, and expected the > > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. > Now Americans will be > > much more closely aligned with their government in > the eyes of many in > > the world. > > > > On a more personal note, as a holder of a US and > Latvian passport, the > > shift in these last years is that I only use my US > passport when I > > travel to the US, because the "baggage" of the US > government is not > > something I like to carry in my dealings with > people in my everyday > > life. I never had a good answer when someone > wants to know where I am > > "from" (Hawaii, Wisconsin, California, Colorado, > Latvia, Germany, Greece > > all fit to some degree, but California the most). > Unfortunately my > > Italian paperwork lists US as my citizenship, so > I'm illegal for the > > last year, with an expired permit-of-stay, grouped > with Australians, > > New Zealanders, Canadians, Japanese, Africans, > South Americans.... (the > > nonEU world) who are in a quagmire in the > collapsed Italian Bossi-Fini > > immigration law. Therefore, given the US political > situation now, I will > > begin to shift my Italian bureaucratic papers to > my Latvian citizenship > > (even with Italy's new restrictions on the new EU > member countries), > > since I think that holding a US passport will > mostly hurt me now. > > > > Amara > > > > -- > > > > Amara Graps, PhD > > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario > (IFSI) > > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 18:18:07 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:18:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041103181808.79542.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> To be perfectly candid & cynical, Bush's one of legacies will be reducing the population in central and west Asia by the millions. Has anyone read Paul Kennedy's book about imperial overstretch? Imperial overstretch may be the principle legacy, trillions will be poured into the war. > What do you think the lasting positive legacy of > Bush's presidency is going to be? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 18:49:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:49:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041103184916.88582.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > On Tue, 2 Nov 2004 10:58:48 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > For those of you nay-sayers, the NH Public Radio exit poll has > > Libertarian Rich Kahn getting 11% of the vote in the 2nd district > > congressional race. This is the best showing of any Libertarian in > NH > > history for a federal election, and shows that we can play with the > big > > dogs if we get organized and work together in a positive, rational, > and > > mature manner. > > > > It appears that Rich's success is coming at the Democrats expense > > (despite the conventional wisdom). Paul Hodes exit poll results > show > > him getting only 29% of the vote, while Charlie Bass, the perpetual > > rubber fish of NH politics, continues to repel the competition with > a > > solid majority of the vote. This achievement is in keeping with our > > goal of turning the Democrats into a third party if they continue > to > > attack us, rather than working with us on common issues. > > > > > I see the final results are: > Charles F. Bass * (R) 191,031 59% > Paul Hodes (D) 123,393 38% > Richard Kahn (Lib.) 11,258 3% > > So you managed to get 11,258 to vote Lib. This is probably still a > record for the Lib party, but rather far from turning the Dems into a > third party. > > Looks like your objective of 20,000 Libs moving to NH will be too > small on its own to change the state politics. I think you have quite > a few more years of persuasion ahead of you yet. I'm actually heartened by that showing. Its still the best in that congressional district so far, despite a neck and neck presidential race, with record total turnout, which is when we typically do our worst. Richard's 3.4% showing is significantly better than the 2002 elections where Rosalie Babiarz got 2.3% with 5051 votes, and the 2000 election, when Brian Chisteson got 2.3% with 6188 votes. This is a 50% improvement percentage wise, and about a 100% improvement in raw numbers. If we were to extrapolate that the 50-60 FSP members who have already moved here can be correlated to an increase in votes for Libertarians by 5000-6000, due to increased activism, public perception of legitimacy and influence, etc., this means that 20,000 FSP members should result in 200,000 votes in this one congressional district for libertarian candidates when the migration is completed. Double that for state-wide races and we control the state. Of course, this is a pretty bold extrapolation to make off of only a few data points. A diminishing utility curve would likely temper that significantly. I believe a truer curve will start to take shape over the next few years. If we could get even 100,000 state-wide votes for us in any given race we will be competing head to head with the GOP and Democrats on their own terms, and will command a significant minority of the legislature. I believe once we penetrate the statutory thresholds required for major party status (4% of the vote in state wide elections) regularly, we will start to build a popular synergy of legitimacy that won't level off until we reach at least 20% popularity. We might have done that this year if our Senate candidate had made it onto the ballot, since the 1st district is actually much more supportive of us, but our 1st district congressional candidate's poor ballot access petitioning screwed that up (in addition to many Democrat dirty tricks). Past performance in the 1st district has typically been 3.1-3.3%. If they had shown similar improvement of 50%, they'd have gotten 4.6%-4.9% this election, statewide we'd have averaged over 4%, and gotten major party status for the first time since 1996 (when the statutory threshold was raised from 3% to 4%). This is rather bittersweet to contemplate, since I just assumed the vice-chairmanship. So, the FSP is having a significant positive impact. Not as big as indicated by my irrational exhuberance of yesterday after spending the day at the polls (I was high on the democratic process, sorry, I'm still recuperating), but quite significant none the less. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From max at maxmore.com Wed Nov 3 18:54:38 2004 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:54:38 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry to win, 2.5 to 1 In-Reply-To: <4188B353.5090906@pobox.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> <4188B353.5090906@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041103125218.038afa20@mail.earthlink.net> Cheer up, Eli. If you look in the right place, you *can* find a sophisticated and *correct* prediction: http://morris.wharton.upenn.edu/forecast/Political/ This collection of indicators has forecast a Bush victory consistently for many months. One of the few non-aligned major components was the first Delphi poll, but the second and third Delphi's pointed to Bush. Max At 04:30 AM 11/3/2004, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: >Robin Hanson wrote: >>Tradesports, IEM, Betfair give Kerry a 71 to 74% chance to win. > >Today's experiment... failed. > >It disturbs me that with millions of dollars to spend and all the >sophisticated apparatus of statistics, we can't predict the outcome of an >election. It makes one wonder about the latest study showing that >broccoli does (not) prevent cancer. At least with elections, you find out >when you're wrong. I wonder how much marginal science is similarly bogus. > >-- >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ >Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 18:57:59 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:57:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <20041103184916.88582.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041103185759.27432.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Scraping together- and i do mean scraping- 100,000 votes in a state as stodgy as NH will (or would) take decades. Right now you are of the scale of Naderites. > Of course, this is a pretty bold extrapolation to > make off of only a > few data points. A diminishing utility curve would > likely temper that > significantly. I believe a truer curve will start to > take shape over > the next few years. If we could get even 100,000 > state-wide votes for > us in any given race we will be competing head to > head with the GOP and > Democrats on their own terms, and will command a > significant minority > of the legislature. > > I believe once we penetrate the statutory thresholds > required for major > party status (4% of the vote in state wide > elections) regularly, we > will start to build a popular synergy of legitimacy > that won't level > off until we reach at least 20% popularity. We might > have done that > this year if our Senate candidate had made it onto > the ballot, since > the 1st district is actually much more supportive of > us, but our 1st > district congressional candidate's poor ballot > access petitioning > screwed that up (in addition to many Democrat dirty > tricks). > > Past performance in the 1st district has typically > been 3.1-3.3%. If > they had shown similar improvement of 50%, they'd > have gotten 4.6%-4.9% > this election, statewide we'd have averaged over 4%, > and gotten major > party status for the first time since 1996 (when the > statutory > threshold was raised from 3% to 4%). This is rather > bittersweet to > contemplate, since I just assumed the > vice-chairmanship. > > So, the FSP is having a significant positive impact. > Not as big as > indicated by my irrational exhuberance of yesterday > after spending the > day at the polls (I was high on the democratic > process, sorry, I'm > still recuperating), but quite significant none the > less. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 19:05:47 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:05:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103181236.48190.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041103190547.10813.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > The main point of electoral politics is to check > power-seekers. Everything else comes after, so i don't > care much how double-dealing Kerry was. > There's no virtue in politics, it's business, it's > about cutting the power-hungry down to size. Cause Kerry "is your son of a bitch", paraphrase a previous JFK....? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think you wrongly assumed that Bush was the only power-hungry or the most power-hungry individual in the equation here. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 19:25:07 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103190547.10813.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041103192507.16550.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> No, Bush is not the only or most power-oriented; but he certainly is motivated by power more than the love of Jesus-- so 'technically' he is a fraud, that is to say Bush is as power-oriented or more so than the average presidential aspirant yet only a truly foolish person would take him at his word when he says he genuinely represents the higher purpose he presents to the world. Bush's overarching goal is to get as many of his relatives as practical into office, thereby he has a realistic legacy because anyone who gets their relatives in power or has relatives who are extremely wealthy is realistic is thinking their descendants have a better chance of living longer or at least continuing the genetic posterity. Only religious nuts or utter chumps would con themselves into thinking Bush would dedicate his life to politics for the sake of Jesus. > I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think you > wrongly assumed that Bush > was the only power-hungry or the most power-hungry > individual in the > equation here. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 19:28:37 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:28:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <20041103185759.27432.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041103192837.50462.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > Scraping together- and i do mean scraping- 100,000 > votes in a state as stodgy as NH will (or would) take > decades. Right now you are of the scale of Naderites. Trend, Nader has never had major party status. His performance got the Greens that status in a few states, but certainly not nationwide and definitely not here. Nader is a main stream media creation. Nationwide, he got the same number of votes that Badnarik got this year (of course the press isn't going to mention this fact), despite raising $2.4 million by September (according to FEC filings), to Badnarik's fraction of a million. Nader is a media fiction that the hipsters in the chattering class can show their cool by supporting. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:30:32 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:30:32 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103190547.10813.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103181236.48190.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <20041103190547.10813.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:05:47 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think you wrongly assumed that Bush > was the only power-hungry or the most power-hungry individual in the > equation here. > The BBC website has a good analysis of why Bush won: Selection of quotes from the article:- Religion - rather than class, ethnic origin or education - has become the key determinant of voting in the 2004 presidential race. And moral issues were more important for voters than Iraq, the war on terrorism, or the economy. Not surprisingly, four out of five voters who cited moral values as their key issue voted for President Bush - as did the same proportion of those who cited terrorism. In contrast, those most concerned about the economy voted four to one for Senator Kerry. What has divided voters in this election, however, are views on the Iraq war, and on new moral issues like stem cell research and same-sex marriage. Those against gay marriage, for example, voted strongly for Mr Bush, as did those opposed to abortion. And the electorate divided sharply over Iraq, with the 47% disapproving of the decision to go to war strongly backing Senator Kerry. Two-thirds of voters who attend religious services regularly (once a week or more) backed President Bush rather than Senator Kerry - and they make up 40% of the electorate. Those who never attend services, in contrast, backed the Democrats by the same margin - but they make up only 15% of the electorate. The ability of the Republican party to mobilise its religious base could prove to be the decisive factor. End quotes. BillK From hal at finney.org Wed Nov 3 19:39:01 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:39:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn Message-ID: <20041103193901.CF6B457E2A@finney.org> Badnarik wasn't on the ballot in New Hampshire, right? http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/NH/P/00/index.html What happened there? Are you hoping to get a Libertarian on the ballot for the next presidential election? Hal From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:42:30 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:42:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <948b11e04110311426e35c6e3@mail.gmail.com> Well, maybe we can blame the huge predominance of untested voting machines. Neither I nor anyone else has any way of knowing how much rigging was done there. They certainly are not proven to be fair and accurate. On the other hand if I was rigging machines I would have rigged in a much better margin that what eventually occurred. But perhaps the hypothetical riggers simply misjudged how much was needed. Perhaps. I just hope the Shrub doesn't start mouthing off about a "mandate from the people". I don't think I can take it. - s On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:17:43 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the future. > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be > much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in > the world. > > On a more personal note, as a holder of a US and Latvian passport, the > shift in these last years is that I only use my US passport when I > travel to the US, because the "baggage" of the US government is not > something I like to carry in my dealings with people in my everyday > life. I never had a good answer when someone wants to know where I am > "from" (Hawaii, Wisconsin, California, Colorado, Latvia, Germany, Greece > all fit to some degree, but California the most). Unfortunately my > Italian paperwork lists US as my citizenship, so I'm illegal for the > last year, with an expired permit-of-stay, grouped with Australians, > New Zealanders, Canadians, Japanese, Africans, South Americans.... (the > nonEU world) who are in a quagmire in the collapsed Italian Bossi-Fini > immigration law. Therefore, given the US political situation now, I will > begin to shift my Italian bureaucratic papers to my Latvian citizenship > (even with Italy's new restrictions on the new EU member countries), > since I think that holding a US passport will mostly hurt me now. > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 19:46:23 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:46:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <20041103192837.50462.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041103194623.88170.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Hmm, you might be correct. All the same, you've got decades to go before a substantive fraction of the public in NH accepts libertarianism. i lived in VT, a few blocks from the NH border, they're not at all the sort of radicals who would be attracted en masse to libertarianism. You could get maybe 10-20,000 to join the NHLP in perhaps 20-30 years because libertarianism is fun (for instance, the allure of drugs & wild sex), but 100,000 members in one decade? nosiree. 50 years? yes. The crucial factor is the constancy of psychological processes in a state such as NH. You might have better luck in Vermont. > Trend, > Nader has never had major party status. His > performance got the Greens > that status in a few states, but certainly not > nationwide and > definitely not here. Nader is a main stream media > creation. Nationwide, > he got the same number of votes that Badnarik got > this year (of course > the press isn't going to mention this fact), despite > raising $2.4 > million by September (according to FEC filings), to > Badnarik's fraction > of a million. Nader is a media fiction that the > hipsters in the > chattering class can show their cool by supporting. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:52:30 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:52:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: References: <20041103181236.48190.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <20041103190547.10813.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948b11e041103115239c64517@mail.gmail.com> "Moral issues"? Well yes, denying the same rights others enjoy to a minority in matters of relationship and recognition of relationship is a "moral issue". It is clearly evil. Stem cell research though? On what basis? Only the considerably misinformed believe it has anything to do with abortion which is claimed as a "moral issue". When looking at the poll results it helps, along with some fitting intoxicant or other, to remember that the vast majority of the people are not far from an IQ of 100. On top of that they have been successfully taught not to think. Also, Kerry never stood for a big difference in most of the matters of primary non-"moral" concern. The real message to the Shrub should be that the people largely think he is doing a terrible job if even an opponent who did not present a very clear difference did this well against him. But that is not the message he will trumpet to the country. Back to my bitters. -s On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:30:32 +0000, BillK wrote: > On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:05:47 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think you wrongly assumed that Bush > > was the only power-hungry or the most power-hungry individual in the > > equation here. > > > > The BBC website has a good analysis of why Bush won: > > > Selection of quotes from the article:- > > Religion - rather than class, ethnic origin or education - has become > the key determinant of voting in the 2004 presidential race. > And moral issues were more important for voters than Iraq, the war on > terrorism, or the economy. > Not surprisingly, four out of five voters who cited moral values as > their key issue voted for President Bush - as did the same proportion > of those who cited terrorism. > In contrast, those most concerned about the economy voted four to one > for Senator Kerry. > > What has divided voters in this election, however, are views on the > Iraq war, and on new moral issues like stem cell research and same-sex > marriage. > Those against gay marriage, for example, voted strongly for Mr Bush, > as did those opposed to abortion. > And the electorate divided sharply over Iraq, with the 47% > disapproving of the decision to go to war strongly backing Senator > Kerry. > > Two-thirds of voters who attend religious services regularly (once a > week or more) backed President Bush rather than Senator Kerry - and > they make up 40% of the electorate. > Those who never attend services, in contrast, backed the Democrats by > the same margin - but they make up only 15% of the electorate. > The ability of the Republican party to mobilise its religious base > could prove to be the decisive factor. > > End quotes. > > BillK > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:54:06 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:54:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <005101c4c1cd$07154f30$af1e4842@kevin> References: <005101c4c1cd$07154f30$af1e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <948b11e041103115469f0868d@mail.gmail.com> You know, at the moment I don't have a bit of patience for the same lies that I have heard for months. Just stop. On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:46:19 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > This is so simple that I don;t know why people here don;t get it. > If Kerry actually believed what he says, and his future actions could be > easily predicted, he wouldn't have had a problem. It seems like everyone > here but MIke Lorrey compares Bush's policies with what Kerry says his > policies would be. This comparison is made while ignoring the fact that John > Kerry doesn;t have a clue where he stands on any of the issues. He says what > he thinks people want to hear to elect him and you fall for it every time. > He flips and flops. The bottom line is that he is unpredictable. If he had > said "I am going to pull out of Iraq and put that money into MNT", you would > be excited, but do you honestly think he would follow through? If you > actually think that he would do as he says, you are basing that on faith (or > something like it) instead of logic. > > The fact is, no matter how much I dislike many of Bush's policies, I can > predict what he is going to do. I know where he stands. There are many > places where I am at odds with him, particularly stem cell research, > cloning, foreign policy, and gay marriage. But for all I know, Kerry is most > likely lying about his stance on these things. He has taken both sides on > these issues and you have only heard him say what you wanted to hear hiim > say. He is also just as guilty of invoking "God" at every turn....unless he > is addressing a secular crowd. > > When faced with an unpredictable character and a predictable one, most > people will choose the predictable one. This is why I preferred the known > evil of Bush over the unknown evil of Kerry. Although I don;t have any > polling data that says so, my gut tells me that the swing voters went Bush'd > way for that same reason. > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Amara Graps" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:17 AM > Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > > > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, > > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the future. > > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be > > much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in > > the world. > > > > On a more personal note, as a holder of a US and Latvian passport, the > > shift in these last years is that I only use my US passport when I > > travel to the US, because the "baggage" of the US government is not > > something I like to carry in my dealings with people in my everyday > > life. I never had a good answer when someone wants to know where I am > > "from" (Hawaii, Wisconsin, California, Colorado, Latvia, Germany, Greece > > all fit to some degree, but California the most). Unfortunately my > > Italian paperwork lists US as my citizenship, so I'm illegal for the > > last year, with an expired permit-of-stay, grouped with Australians, > > New Zealanders, Canadians, Japanese, Africans, South Americans.... (the > > nonEU world) who are in a quagmire in the collapsed Italian Bossi-Fini > > immigration law. Therefore, given the US political situation now, I will > > begin to shift my Italian bureaucratic papers to my Latvian citizenship > > (even with Italy's new restrictions on the new EU member countries), > > since I think that holding a US passport will mostly hurt me now. > > > > Amara > > > > -- > > > > Amara Graps, PhD > > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 19:56:54 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:56:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <20041103194623.88170.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103192837.50462.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <20041103194623.88170.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948b11e041103115660107441@mail.gmail.com> Do you really think that drugs and wild sex are what the party is about? Or are you just being "funny"? -s On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:46:23 -0800 (PST), Al Brooks wrote: > Hmm, you might be correct. All the same, you've got > decades to go before a substantive fraction of the > public in NH accepts libertarianism. i lived in VT, a > few blocks from the NH border, they're not at all the > sort of radicals who would be attracted en masse to > libertarianism. You could get maybe 10-20,000 to join > the NHLP in perhaps 20-30 years because libertarianism > is fun (for instance, the allure of drugs & wild sex), > but 100,000 members in one decade? nosiree. 50 years? > yes. > The crucial factor is the constancy of psychological > processes in a state such as NH. You might have > better luck in Vermont. > > > > > Trend, > > Nader has never had major party status. His > > performance got the Greens > > that status in a few states, but certainly not > > nationwide and > > definitely not here. Nader is a main stream media > > creation. Nationwide, > > he got the same number of votes that Badnarik got > > this year (of course > > the press isn't going to mention this fact), despite > > raising $2.4 > > million by September (according to FEC filings), to > > Badnarik's fraction > > of a million. Nader is a media fiction that the > > hipsters in the > > chattering class can show their cool by supporting. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William Pitt > > (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Nov 3 19:57:23 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 14:57:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: <91160-220041133195723875@M2W034.mail2web.com> Greetings - This is short and sweet: I am disappointed Bush won. I didn't want Kerry either, frankly. But Kerry would have been more contemporary in his understanding of the world, stem cells, and varied religious beliefs. Personally, I think it is inappropriate to come down on America just because Bush won. I spoke with some friends from Belgium, France, and Canada last week. I asked what they thought. Each one believes that it would not make any different if Bush or Kerry won, that the damage has already been done, and we must deal with it. What can our organizations, such as Extropy Institute, do to promote good relations between ourselves and others throughout the world? That is a first step. Best, Natasha Vita-More -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From sjatkins at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 20:05:01 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:05:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103162511.81598.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103162511.81598.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948b11e041103120551e1633@mail.gmail.com> Quite a mouthful to read into a simple statement, Mike. I personally only presume that those with good reasons for their opinions are superior to those without as good reasons. I also that justifying great gobs of misery and waste of life and fortune with lies is clearly and cleanly wrong. That has nothing to do with education level. What are you of all people doing trotting out the old rotten business of class distinctions anyway? - s On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 08:25:11 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > --- Amara Graps wrote: > > > to Mike Lorrey's peculiar response.. > > > > >I suspect most of your friends would fall into that class of people > > >that are referred to as "the chattering class". > > > > Very well educated ? (worldwide, including Americans) > > > > Perhaps it is true that they don't know many 'Republicans' (whatever > > that is). It's universally true that my friends and colleagues > > (worldwide) don't like the actions of Bush administration. > > So you live in a self-reinforcing memeset that never fact checks with a > cultural group outside your own, because you have a built in immune > system that presumes that your greater education makes you smarter than > anybody else and that therefore your opinions are therefore more correct. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 20:05:54 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:05:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <91160-220041133195723875@M2W034.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20041103200554.19025.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> This is indeed the quadrillion dollar question, how do we promote better relations? I haven't the foggiest notion; besides I like cats, not humans. > What can our organizations, such as Extropy > Institute, do to promote good > relations between ourselves and others throughout > the world? That is a > first step. > > Best, > > Natasha Vita-More > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 20:09:07 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:09:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <948b11e041103115660107441@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041103200907.27036.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> No, I am NOT being funny. I meant libertarian in the philosophical not political sense. Madam, I was a libertarian when you were in diapers, and drugs & sex are most absolutely an attraction to younger libertarians. --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Do you really think that drugs and wild sex are what > the party is > about? Or are you just being "funny"? > > -s > > > On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:46:23 -0800 (PST), Al Brooks > wrote: > > Hmm, you might be correct. All the same, you've > got > > decades to go before a substantive fraction of the > > public in NH accepts libertarianism. i lived in > VT, a > > few blocks from the NH border, they're not at all > the > > sort of radicals who would be attracted en masse > to > > libertarianism. You could get maybe 10-20,000 to > join > > the NHLP in perhaps 20-30 years because > libertarianism > > is fun (for instance, the allure of drugs & wild > sex), > > but 100,000 members in one decade? nosiree. 50 > years? > > yes. > > The crucial factor is the constancy of > psychological > > processes in a state such as NH. You might have > > better luck in Vermont. > > > > > > > > > Trend, > > > Nader has never had major party status. His > > > performance got the Greens > > > that status in a few states, but certainly not > > > nationwide and > > > definitely not here. Nader is a main stream > media > > > creation. Nationwide, > > > he got the same number of votes that Badnarik > got > > > this year (of course > > > the press isn't going to mention this fact), > despite > > > raising $2.4 > > > million by September (according to FEC filings), > to > > > Badnarik's fraction > > > of a million. Nader is a media fiction that the > > > hipsters in the > > > chattering class can show their cool by > supporting. > > > > > > ===== > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of > NH > > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > > human freedom. > > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed > of > > > slaves." > > > -William > Pitt > > > (1759-1806) > > > Blog: > > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Wed Nov 3 20:28:46 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 12:28:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: <20041103202846.4D01B57E2A@finney.org> Natasha writes: > What can our organizations, such as Extropy Institute, do to promote good > relations between ourselves and others throughout the world? That is a > first step. I think that's a great question. Of course, ExI is not a major player on the world stage and can't by itself rehabilitate America's international image. But just by asking it, we are reminded that we are not our country. By asking what we can do, as individuals united with common beliefs, we emphasize that our individual actions must be distinguished from the collective actions taken in our name by nations and other political bodies. Political bodies are not voluntary societies. The Extropy Institute is. We choose to join ExI and to affiliate with it and work to advance our common goals. If ExI does something we don't like, we can easily leave the organization and join another one or start our own. The United States is not like that. The country is deeply split along religious and cultural lines. No matter who won the election, half the electorate would be deeply disappointed. But we're stuck with each other. It's not feasible to split the nation along the lines of the red and blue states. And even if it were possible, there would still be many people who are stuck in a country which is taking actions that they strongly disagree with. The direction I would pursue in response to Natasha's question is simply to emphasize this reality. We in the United States are not our country. Neither are Europeans their countries, or their continent. Likewise with people in all parts of the world. We are individuals, with individual beliefs. Those beliefs are what should govern our interactions, not the views which happen to have a numerical majority in the region where we live. This is what I would like to see ExI emphasize, that even though American Extropians are located in a country which is perhaps moving in the direction of religious conservatism, that doesn't stop us from still supporting our causes and working to advance our goals. On the WTA list this morning, Americans are talking about moving to Canada or Europe in response to this election. I think this is at least premature and at worst makes the mistake of identifying too much with the country where you live. You aren't your country. You aren't responsible for its actions. Most people have only an infinitisimal influence on its policies. ExI should continue to work with international transhuman groups and others with whom we have common cause. So the country took a further step to the right. That doesn't change our views or our goals. We can continue to work for them, unapologetically and wholeheartedly. Hal From sentience at pobox.com Wed Nov 3 20:34:55 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:34:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry to win, 2.5 to 1 In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20041103125218.038afa20@mail.earthlink.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> <4188B353.5090906@pobox.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041103125218.038afa20@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <418940EF.9050706@pobox.com> Max More wrote: > Cheer up, Eli. If you look in the right place, you *can* find a > sophisticated and *correct* prediction: > > http://morris.wharton.upenn.edu/forecast/Political/ > > This collection of indicators has forecast a Bush victory consistently > for many months. One of the few non-aligned major components was the > first Delphi poll, but the second and third Delphi's pointed to Bush. What would you have given me for the "sophisticated and correct" prediction if Kerry had won? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From pharos at gmail.com Wed Nov 3 21:12:50 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:12:50 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Kerry to win, 2.5 to 1 In-Reply-To: <418940EF.9050706@pobox.com> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20041102172736.01f1d580@mail.gmu.edu> <4188B353.5090906@pobox.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20041103125218.038afa20@mail.earthlink.net> <418940EF.9050706@pobox.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 03 Nov 2004 15:34:55 -0500, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > What would you have given me for the "sophisticated and correct" prediction > if Kerry had won? > This is like astrologers or psychics. If enough people make enough forecasts, somebody will claim that they can forecast the future correctly. We just have to ignore the wrong forecasts (which are uninteresting anyway) and we can start believing in mediums seeing future events. BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 21:18:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:18:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <20041103193901.CF6B457E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20041103211852.16025.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > Badnarik wasn't on the ballot in New Hampshire, right? > http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/NH/P/00/index.html > > What happened there? Are you hoping to get a Libertarian on the > ballot for the next presidential election? I've been asked this so many times I should have a memo prepared in my drafts folder... A whole host of things, some our fault, some government screw ups, some national LP screwups, and some actively criminal interference by the Democrats all contributed. Here we go: Our ballot law requires 1500 certified ballot access petitions in each congressional district to qualify for a statewide race like senator, governor, or president. In past elections our experience has been that our petitions are certified at a 90% rate. We collected 3900 petitions statewide, which we thought was as secure a fudge factor as we needed. Of those, city clerks and supervisors of checklists certified and returned 2200 petitions by the statutory Sept 1 deadline. Of the remainder, we lost them for the following reasons: a) E911: petitioners would put their new E911 addresses on their petition, but the voter checklists have not been updated, so the petition was DQ'd. b) NADER: National LP sent in pro petitioners to help us reach our goals, but either didn't know, or didn't tell us, that they were contracted with Nader to petition for him. Problem is the state law here which says you can only sign for one party, and whoever gets your name to town hall first gets your name, everybody else is SOL. c) National Convention: Our congressional and senate candidates were nominated last November at our state convention, and two of the three started petitioning immediately thereafter. One waited until after the National Convention so he could put Badnarik on all of his petitions. So he had two months to get 1500 signatures. Not enough time. d) THEFT: There were at least two incidents of impostors stealing our petitions from town halls. e) LATE RETURNS: over half a dozen towns sent petitions back to us after the statutory deadline, and even after the deadline for us to turn them over to the Secty of State. The city of Keene never notified us they were ready and never sent them back at all. f) Bad clerking: a number of clearly legible petitions were dq'd for illegibility. On the plus side, the christian fundies, who hated Benson, are facetiously crediting Benson's vote count as "the highest ever for the LPNH" since they've branded him the "first virtual libertarian governor" in NH..... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From sahynepu at concentric.net Wed Nov 3 21:08:35 2004 From: sahynepu at concentric.net (Sahyinepu) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:08:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103192507.16550.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86294830-2DDC-11D9-8659-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> For one...we are turning into the most hypocritical nation of all. We invade other countries supposedly to liberate them from religious oppression...oppression of women, as well as presumably gays, and of course, oppression of the sciences. Meanwhile, we pass oppressive measures like the Patriot Acts I and II, make gay marriage and even civil unions illegal, attempt to limit contraceptives and abortion for women, and limit and stop scientific endeavors, be they in the medical fields or the environmental ones. We are slowly looking more and more like the countries we claim to liberate...we are looking a lot like a theocracy, and less like a democracy. Which begs the question, why even bother to liberate them, when we cannot protect and ensure the same freedoms here? America needs to sit down and shut up. On Wednesday, November 3, 2004, at 01:25 PM, Al Brooks wrote: > No, Bush is not the only or most power-oriented; but > he certainly is motivated by power more than the love > of Jesus-- so 'technically' he is a fraud, that is to > say Bush is as power-oriented or more so than the > average presidential aspirant yet only a truly foolish > person would take him at his word when he says he > genuinely represents the higher purpose he presents to > the world. Bush's overarching goal is to get as many > of his relatives as practical into office, thereby he > has a realistic legacy because anyone who gets their > relatives in power or has relatives who are extremely > wealthy is realistic is thinking their descendants > have a better chance of living longer or at least > continuing the genetic posterity. Only religious nuts > or utter chumps would con themselves into thinking > Bush would dedicate his life to politics for the sake > of Jesus. >> I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think you >> wrongly assumed that Bush >> was the only power-hungry or the most power-hungry >> individual in the >> equation here. >> >> ===== >> Mike Lorrey > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 21:31:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 13:31:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <948b11e041103120551e1633@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041103213118.37544.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Quite a mouthful to read into a simple statement, Mike. I > personally > only presume that those with good reasons for their opinions are > superior to those without as good reasons. I also that justifying > great gobs of misery and waste of life and fortune with lies is > clearly and cleanly wrong. That has nothing to do with education > level. What are you of all people doing trotting out the old > rotten business of class distinctions anyway? I didn't, Amara did talking about how all of her academia friends are so anti-Bush. You try to trot out that your opinion and those of your friends is better because you are so well educated, you are declaring your own superiority and elitism. You distinguish yourself with your own statements. My giving your class a name you don't like isn't making class distinctions. You can't have your cake and eat it.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Nov 3 22:05:08 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:05:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: This is ridiculous hyperbole. When George Bush wears a funny hat and mandates that all Usians wear a cross, then we approach a theocracy. We're still in a country where the supereme court routinely blocks the ten commandments and such from being displayed in gov't courthouses. There is a strong seperation of church and state and it will remain so for the far future. Bush saying "God bless America" is a far cry from Wahhabism. BAL >From: Sahyinepu >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:08:35 -0600 > >For one...we are turning into the most hypocritical nation of all. We >invade other countries supposedly to liberate them from religious >oppression...oppression of women, as well as presumably gays, and of >course, oppression of the sciences. > >Meanwhile, we pass oppressive measures like the Patriot Acts I and II, make >gay marriage and even civil unions illegal, attempt to limit contraceptives >and abortion for women, and limit and stop scientific endeavors, be they in >the medical fields or the environmental ones. > >We are slowly looking more and more like the countries we claim to >liberate...we are looking a lot like a theocracy, and less like a >democracy. Which begs the question, why even bother to liberate them, when >we cannot protect and ensure the same freedoms here? > >America needs to sit down and shut up. > > >On Wednesday, November 3, 2004, at 01:25 PM, Al Brooks wrote: > >>No, Bush is not the only or most power-oriented; but >>he certainly is motivated by power more than the love >>of Jesus-- so 'technically' he is a fraud, that is to >>say Bush is as power-oriented or more so than the >>average presidential aspirant yet only a truly foolish >>person would take him at his word when he says he >>genuinely represents the higher purpose he presents to >>the world. Bush's overarching goal is to get as many >>of his relatives as practical into office, thereby he >>has a realistic legacy because anyone who gets their >>relatives in power or has relatives who are extremely >>wealthy is realistic is thinking their descendants >>have a better chance of living longer or at least >>continuing the genetic posterity. Only religious nuts >>or utter chumps would con themselves into thinking >>Bush would dedicate his life to politics for the sake >>of Jesus. >>>I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think you >>>wrongly assumed that Bush >>>was the only power-hungry or the most power-hungry >>>individual in the >>>equation here. >>> >>>===== >>>Mike Lorrey >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >>Do you Yahoo!? >>Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. >>www.yahoo.com >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Nov 3 22:07:05 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 16:07:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <948b11e04110311426e35c6e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <948b11e04110311426e35c6e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041103160537.01c09e80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:42 AM 11/3/2004 -0800, Samantha wrote: >I just hope the Shrub doesn't start mouthing off about a "mandate from >the people". I don't think I can take it. Hey, the man got 51.6% of the vote. If Kerry had got that many, wouldn't you regard it as a mandate? Damien Broderick From doc454 at prodigy.net Wed Nov 3 23:03:14 2004 From: doc454 at prodigy.net (doc454) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 18:03:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... References: Message-ID: <005f01c4c1f9$4d2a45d0$d49afea9@scottkupfds4gg> I saw a message on another list from someone distraught abut the results of the election.They concluded with the statement " I didn't realize the country was that (insert choice words here) " Yes it appears that the country is that (______)!!!!! I think the word that applies is Vengeful. Since 9/11 the majority of Americans have wanted a president that will go out and kick some Arab butt. It doesn't seem to matter that they were not directly or even indirectly involved in the attacks. When I try to explain that Sadam was hated by Bin Ladin and would have never co-operated on anything they they just reply 'they're all Arabs so they must have been in it together'. Security was one of the issues that turned the election. "What good is a job if you get blown up on the way to the grocery?" These same people were drawn to the poles in Ohio and 10 other states by the issue of Gay Marriage. I've heard these people say they don't care if someone is gay as long as they don't rub my face in it. Equating gayness with something you wouldn't want your face rubbed in. They wanted vengeance against those that would put the issue on the ballot. This is why pure democracy would never work. Lynch mobs would rule. This has made me ashamed to have been a conservative republican most of my life. The vitriol and hate on the left was just as bad they just didn't have the numbers. I still couldn't bring myself to vote for Kerry. When you vote for the lesser of two evils you still get evil. That's why I was one of 640 in Montgomery county that voted for Badnarik. . Thanks for listening. Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lee" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > It seemed like a lot of anti-Bush sentiment prior to the election was by > dems, for dems. Take F9/11 for example: anti-Bushers loved it, pro-Bushers > hated it. I don't know anyone who changed their opinion because of it. I now > suspect that stuff like Fareinheight 9/11 galvanized republicans to vote to > counteract perceived increase in democrats voting. > > What puzzles me is how so many first time voters went for Bush. I expected > all of the increase in new voter registrations to be anti-Bush. Wierd. > > BAL > > >From: BillK > >To: ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:45:11 +0000 > > > >On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:17:43 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > > > > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > > > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, > > > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the > >future. > > > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > > > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > > > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > > > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be > > > much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in > > > the world. > > > > > > >Bush won the popular vote in the face of unremitting opposition from > >virtually all the liberal, intellectual writers and artists. All the > >opinion columns, media sources, leader writers, etc. in US and around > >the world have been almost unanimous in opposition to Bush. > > > >Why? I suspect that a lot of the Bush support comes from people who > >never read the writers output. I think they are writing for each > >other, mutual support and back-scratching. > > > >One theory is that the liberal intellectuals (especially European, but > >world-wide) have been lost for years since the failure of socialism > >and they have now united in anti-Americanism. Kerry has been trying to > >say that it is not really anti-Americanism, that it is anti-Bushism. > >(Vote for me and the world will love the US again!) But this is hardly > >believable. > > > >If you accept the 'War on Terror' then regardless of who is President, > >the anti-Americanism will continue. And Bush is better at the 'War on > >Terror' than Kerry would have been. > > > >BillK > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Wed Nov 3 23:20:38 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 15:20:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <005f01c4c1f9$4d2a45d0$d49afea9@scottkupfds4gg> Message-ID: <20041103232038.91859.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> It appears the odds now for a general war in the 'Middle East' (+ maybe Central Asia) are 50%, so Bush is correct to ask us to join together. But gay marriage bans in several states plus a possible anti-gay marriage amendment is not so much meanspirited (though it is mean) as it is very petty; that is unless one believes in 'Sodom and Gomorrah being punished'... you know, the whole "endtimes" package. Can't get it out of my mind that there is a potent self-fulfilling death wish involved, however it could merely be paranoia from putting a limited mind into overdrive. doc454 wrote: I saw a message on another list from someone distraught abut the results of the election.They concluded with the statement " I didn't realize the country was that (insert choice words here) " Yes it appears that the country is that (______)!!!!! I think the word that applies is Vengeful. Since 9/11 the majority of Americans have wanted a president that will go out and kick some Arab butt. It doesn't seem to matter that they were not directly or even indirectly involved in the attacks. When I try to explain that Sadam was hated by Bin Ladin and would have never co-operated on anything they they just reply 'they're all Arabs so they must have been in it together'. Security was one of the issues that turned the election. "What good is a job if you get blown up on the way to the grocery?" These same people were drawn to the poles in Ohio and 10 other states by the issue of Gay Marriage. I've heard these people say they don't care if someone is gay as long as they don't rub my face in it. Equating gayness with something you wouldn't want your face rubbed in. They wanted vengeance against those that would put the issue on the ballot. This is why pure democracy would never work. Lynch mobs would rule. This has made me ashamed to have been a conservative republican most of my life. The vitriol and hate on the left was just as bad they just didn't have the numbers. I still couldn't bring myself to vote for Kerry. When you vote for the lesser of two evils you still get evil. That's why I was one of 640 in Montgomery county that voted for Badnarik. . Thanks for listening. Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lee" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > It seemed like a lot of anti-Bush sentiment prior to the election was by > dems, for dems. Take F9/11 for example: anti-Bushers loved it, pro-Bushers > hated it. I don't know anyone who changed their opinion because of it. I now > suspect that stuff like Fareinheight 9/11 galvanized republicans to vote to > counteract perceived increase in democrats voting. > > What puzzles me is how so many first time voters went for Bush. I expected > all of the increase in new voter registrations to be anti-Bush. Wierd. > > BAL > > >From: BillK > >To: ExI chat list > >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > >Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 10:45:11 +0000 > > > >On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 11:17:43 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > > > > > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > > > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. Also, > > > I suspect it won't be easy for Americans with nonAmericans in the > >future. > > > I heard often in the last years that 'Americans simply made a > > > mistake',with regards to the Bush administration, and so they cleanly > > > separated the American people from their government, and expected the > > > Americans to 'set things right' in this election. Now Americans will be > > > much more closely aligned with their government in the eyes of many in > > > the world. > > > > > > >Bush won the popular vote in the face of unremitting opposition from > >virtually all the liberal, intellectual writers and artists. All the > >opinion columns, media sources, leader writers, etc. in US and around > >the world have been almost unanimous in opposition to Bush. > > > >Why? I suspect that a lot of the Bush support comes from people who > >never read the writers output. I think they are writing for each > >other, mutual support and back-scratching. > > > >One theory is that the liberal intellectuals (especially European, but > >world-wide) have been lost for years since the failure of socialism > >and they have now united in anti-Americanism. Kerry has been trying to > >say that it is not really anti-Americanism, that it is anti-Bushism. > >(Vote for me and the world will love the US again!) But this is hardly > >believable. > > > >If you accept the 'War on Terror' then regardless of who is President, > >the anti-Americanism will continue. And Bush is better at the 'War on > >Terror' than Kerry would have been. > > > >BillK > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Thu Nov 4 01:55:49 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 18:55:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... References: <948b11e04110311426e35c6e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41898C25.4CB6AE87@mindspring.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Well, maybe we can blame the huge predominance of untested voting > machines. Neither I nor anyone else has any way of knowing how much > rigging was done there. They certainly are not proven to be fair and > accurate. > > On the other hand if I was rigging machines I would have rigged in a > much better margin that what eventually occurred. But perhaps the > hypothetical riggers simply misjudged how much was needed. > > Perhaps. > > I just hope the Shrub doesn't start mouthing off about a "mandate from > the people". I don't think I can take it. > > - s Emigrate. I am. Terry -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sentience at pobox.com Thu Nov 4 02:19:45 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 21:19:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <20041103200907.27036.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103200907.27036.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418991C1.4050405@pobox.com> Al Brooks wrote: > No, I am NOT being funny. I meant libertarian in the > philosophical not political sense. > Madam, I was a libertarian when you were in diapers, > and drugs & sex are most absolutely an attraction to > younger libertarians. Sir, when I was your age I was only thirteen years old, and not all younger libertarians think it's about the sex and drugs. Either that, or I want a refund. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From riel at surriel.com Thu Nov 4 02:46:42 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:46:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Immigrate to Europe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Brian Lee wrote: > This isn't as a response to the recent election, but something I've been > thinking about for years. I can recommend living in other countries. I grew up in the Netherlands, lived in Brazil for three years (and met my wife there), and currently we're living in the USA. Yes, government is messed up everywhere. Blame the politicians. I've found all the places where I lived to be good places to live, though. The people are all friendly (in their own way, different in each culture) and living in different cultures has helped me understand the world a lot better than I could have otherwise. Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From riel at surriel.com Thu Nov 4 02:53:17 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:53:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <7a321705041103093132977a46@mail.gmail.com> References: <001601c4c1c0$746a1f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <7a321705041103093132977a46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Zero Powers wrote: > I plan to proudly display one of those bumper stickers that says: "Don't > blame me, I voted for Kerry." Reminds me of a certain episode of The Simpsons. "Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Thu Nov 4 02:57:10 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:57:10 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Bush's triumph: getting the poor to favour the rich In-Reply-To: <41898C25.4CB6AE87@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20041104025713.D7129C1BF@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Bush's triumph: getting the poor to favour the rich By Anatole Kaletsky - The London Times WHATEVER happens in today's American election - and the odds still marginally favour a Kerry victory, for reasons which I explain for the benefit of political junkies at the bottom of this page - one thing is absolutely certain. This has not been an election about economics. In fact, this election should refute once and for all the widespread belief that voting behaviour in advanced western democracies is determined largely by "pocketbook issues". But I would go further and suggest that this election proves something deeper about modern democratic politics. I believe this election has been about economics - but the influence of economics on politics has been very different from the one that pundits normally emphasise. The Bush record suggests that the macroeconomic indicators that are usually believed to motivate ordinary voters - unemployment, inflation and wage growth - are less important than the policies which govern the social distribution of income and economic power. More intriguingly, what Bush has demonstrated is that people can readily be persuaded to vote in accordance with the economic interests of people much richer than themselves. The fact is that, even if Bush loses marginally today, many millions of poor and middle-class Americans will be voting for tax and public spending policies that are directly against their personal economic interests, but hugely beneficial to a small elite. This elite, which could for simplicity be defined as the top 5 per cent of the US income distribution (households with annual earnings over $150,499 in 2001), has not only benefited disproportionately from President Bush's tax policies but - much more importantly - it has lost nothing from the cutbacks in welfare that his budget deficits will surely require. Its after-tax income had already risen by 53 per cent in real terms in the two decades before President Bush came to power - nearly four times the increase in living standards enjoyed by America's middle 20 per cent. These affluent voters might therefore be expected to provide the core of the President's support - and in a sense they do, since the great majority of wealthy Americans continue to vote Republican, notwithstanding their supposed distaste for the illiberal social and religious policies of the party's dominant Right wing. The real numerical base of the Republican Party, however, are the lower-income Americans whose economic interests it clearly does not represent. This is evident in polling data that show the proportion of Republican voters to be almost as high in the middle and lower-middle income groups as it is in the top 20 per cent. Even more striking is the regional pattern of party support. As shown in the second chart, the states solidly backing Bush are much poorer than the ones supporting Kerry. In the British context, it is as if Glasgow and Merthyr Tydfil were reliably voting Tory, while Henley and Kensington were Labour strongholds. The political triumph of the American Right has been to advance relentlessly the economic interests of the country's richest people, while emphasising a swath of moral, social and foreign policy issues that motivate - and certainly distract - middle-class and poor voters. This has been a spectacularly successful strategy which the elites in other countries, including Britain, are likely to follow if they feel that their interests are seriously threatened by a resurgent Left. How can I jump to this broad conclusion, especially after stating that Bush will probably lose the election today? Because the most striking result of this election is already clear. The fact that Bush has any chance at all of re-election is evidence enough of the Republicans' political success. After all, his economic policies have resulted in unprecedented job losses, his tax reforms have produced a massive shift of income from poor to rich, his public spending plans have favoured corporations at the expense of jobless families, his foreign policies have plunged the nation into war on false pretences and failed to bring to justice the perpetrators of 9/11. By almost every economic criterion, the average American voter has had a very hard time during the past four years. Unemployment has risen, per capita income growth and real wages have stagnated and Bush has been the first President since Herbert Hoover to preside over a net loss of jobs. Even inflation, which has remained remarkably low and stable at about 2 per cent on the official figures, is widely perceived to be much higher than the Government admits. According to the Conference Board's monthly survey, public expectations of inflation in the next 12 months are now 5 per cent, almost the highest level in the survey's 13-year record. Moreover, the economic misery has been worst in the manufacturing states on whose voters President Bush now depends for re-election. The US manufacturing sector has suffered a net decline of 20 per cent in employment in the past four years, implying that while most of the US economy has managed to tread water reasonably comfortably since President Bush was elected, the manufacturing states really have suffered their worst economic setback since the 1930s. On any objective reading of this evidence, President Bush should already have been consigned to history. Yet he is now within an ace of re-election. And even if he loses, most of his policies - especially on tax and public spending - will remain intact. In other words, the Republican Right has won the US policy debate on all the important economic issues, whatever happens today at the polls. Having said all this, why do I think that Kerry may win? Simply because all past experience suggests a marginal advantage to the challenger when the final polls show an even split. As Richard Medley, of Medley Global Advisors, one of America's sharpest and successful political analysts, puts it, there are two rules of thumb for analysing the final round of polls. The first is to watch the President's approval ratings. This approval rating - based on a broad and seemingly meaningless question about whether the voter has generally approved of the President's performance - is probably the statistic that has had a generally confident White House seriously worried. No incumbent President has been elected with a job approval below 50, but Bush's has hovered just below the critical 50 per cent mark for most of the period since the election campaign began. Secondly, all attention in Washington has turned to the final round of voting intentions surveys, collected on Saturday and Sunday. Here again Mr Medley and other politicos suggested a simple rule of thumb: if Bush ended up below 50 per cent in the final Gallup poll and in the average of all polls published by RealClearPolitics.com on Monday, then he would probably lose the election. For some reason, historically, incumbents never do better than their final poll numbers and most often do worse. If he's above 50 per cent in those polls then he'll probably win. Well, what is the answer? The final Gallup/CNN vote projection published yesterday had Bush with 49 per cent of the vote, exactly even with Kerry. However, the actual Gallup sample, before the firm's adjustments for expected voter turn-out, was slightly less favourable to Bush, with 46 per cent of registered voters backing Bush against 48 per cent for Kerry. Turning to the average of the latest polls surveyed on RealClearPolitics.com, this put Bush at 48.5, ahead of Kerry's 46.7, but still a tantalising 1.5 points below the magic 50. Given that in 2000, Bush was 2 points ahead of Gore in the final Gallup projection and also in the average of all the polls released just before the election, this is a very uncomfortable position for the incumbent. After all, Gore ended up winning the popular vote in 2000 by a half-point margin. And the gap between national and state poll trends looks slightly less favourable to Bush this time round. From riel at surriel.com Thu Nov 4 02:58:55 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 21:58:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103162511.81598.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041103162511.81598.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > So you live in a self-reinforcing memeset that never fact checks with a > cultural group outside your own, because you have a built in immune > system that presumes that your greater education makes you smarter than > anybody else and that therefore your opinions are therefore more correct. It appears that many people seem to be suffering from this phenomenon. Quite possibly a majority of the voters. Replace "greater education" by "one true religion" or other dogmas as required. ;) Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 03:06:43 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:06:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] LP NH:The Wrath-tionality of Kahn In-Reply-To: <418991C1.4050405@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20041104030643.93637.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Where did it say in my post that ALL younger libertarians think libertarianism is about sex & drugs? Though youth is wasted on the young, your refund is in the mail, with interest. Later on this month's dues for membership in SI will arrive. We all must be patient. >Sir, when I was your age I was only thirteen years old, and not all younger >libertarians think it's about the sex and drugs. Either that, or I want a >refund. >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 03:16:31 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:16:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041104031636.97067.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Hillary will run in 2008, let's hope she wins. >"Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos" Nixon for '08 - he's tanned, rested and ready. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Thu Nov 4 03:37:53 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:37:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041103213118.37544.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (11/3/04 13:31) Mike Lorrey wrote: >I didn't, Amara did talking about how all of her academia friends are >so anti-Bush. You try to trot out that your opinion and those of your >friends is better because you are so well educated, you are declaring >your own superiority and elitism. You distinguish yourself with your >own statements. My giving your class a name you don't like isn't making >class distinctions. You can't have your cake and eat it.... Hmm. Let's check the facts on your statement: --- Amara Graps wrote: > I am so disappointed. How could Bush win the popular vote? I don't > understand this; no one I spoke with here understands it either. > Also, (11/3/04 15:21) Amara Graps wrote: >Perhaps it is true that they don't know many 'Republicans' (whatever >that is). It's universally true that my friends and colleagues >(worldwide) don't like the actions of Bush administration. You know, it doesn't look like to me that Amara was referring solely to academics. Certainly, I believe she has friends outside of academia. Further if you check the time stamps on the message where you first referred to "chattering classes," it predates Amara's reference to "colleagues." Basically, you took a cheap shot at Amara via her comrades and in doing so started playing the class warfare game that the Republicans and Democrats have been playing for years. That's rather amusing. Its also amusing that you refer to "insular groups" so disparagingly when you proudly display membership in probably one of the most insular, chattering group in American politics: the Libertarian Party. :) Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Nov 4 03:49:54 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:49:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004f01c4c221$587ccde0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brian Lee > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > What puzzles me is how so many first time voters went for > Bush. I expected all of the increase in new voter registrations to be anti-Bush. Wierd. > > BAL That was a common mistake, a view held by both parties. The dems were struggling to get young voters to register and turn out, whereas the reps were hesitant to the point of being uncomfortable. But I saw a few interviews where they actually went onto campuses, and learned that as a whole, young people are not particularly liberal. They seem balanced about the same as their parents generation. Perhap we made an incorrect generalization about 20-somethings based on their predecessors. Their presence at the polls did not seem to have a big impact either way. Im trying to get a feel for generation Y issues. I would think that the draft would be one of them, but the two major parties both opposed a draft. There is a great reason for this: we can't trust draftees in any conceivable future conflict. I would think the right to abortion would be a generation Y issue, but birth control is getting better, more foolproof, so perhaps this isn't such a big deal. So what are the young voters thinking? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Nov 4 04:07:07 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:07:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005001c4c223$c3360dc0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > On Wed, 3 Nov 2004, Spike wrote: > > > > > Ja, Badnarik did rather poorly everywhere outside > > New Hampshire. > MB ... > Yes, sadly, he did. I think too many folks who might have voted for > him were running scared and picked the "lesser of two evils" of the > Big Two. :( > > This time I managed not to do that and felt much better with myself > when I left the voting booth. MB Ja me too. Of course I have the luxury of living in a state where it doesn't matter. We Taxifornians can vote for whomever we like, without worry of impacting the outcome. I don't expect that to change. I must say, it worries me to have the whitehouse and both houses of congress in the same party. That empowers government, which always bodes ill. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Nov 4 04:38:39 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 20:38:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Bush's triumph: gettingthe poor to favour the rich In-Reply-To: <20041104025713.D7129C1BF@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <005101c4c228$2ab51f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Sean Diggins ... RE: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Bush's > triumph: gettingthe poor to favour the rich > > > Bush's triumph: getting the poor to favour the rich > By Anatole Kaletsky - The London Times > > WHATEVER happens in today's American election - and the odds still > marginally favour a Kerry victory, for reasons which I explain for the > benefit of political junkies at the bottom of this page - one thing is > absolutely certain. This has not been an election about > economics... Interesting essay, but I long for people everywhere to recognize a simple fact. It is not the president's job to give us a job. It is the *venture capitalists'* job to give us a job. The president might encourage venture capitalists to give us jobs, but he is only very indirectly responsible for unemployment. I do hope that message becomes clear: the president is not the CEO of America. His powers are much more restricted, fortunately. Those who hold the real capital are those who control the economy. If we want them to make the economy good, we need to pay them. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 4 04:45:42 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 22:45:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] pay the CEOs! In-Reply-To: <005101c4c228$2ab51f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20041104025713.D7129C1BF@vscan02.westnet.com.au> <005101c4c228$2ab51f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041103224343.01adaec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:38 PM 11/3/2004 -0800, Spike wrote: >Those who hold the real capital are those >who control the economy. If we want them to make the >economy good, we need to pay them. I could have sworn I read in the papers that they do get paid, and often quite well. Damien Broderick From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Thu Nov 4 05:15:17 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:15:17 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Bush's triumph:gettingthe poor to favour the rich In-Reply-To: <005101c4c228$2ab51f50$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20041104051520.A83E0C1CC@vscan02.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Spike S I do hope that message becomes clear: the president is not the CEO of America. ---------------------------- Except when it comes to invading sovereign nations without the sanction of the UN, as a premptive strike, based on misleading garbage, dragging other nations into the debacle (including my country, Australia, which invaded Iraq pre-emptively without the UN for the first time in history) and then carving up the spoils in a very obvious case of cynical war profiteering. But GWB didn't decide to do this? Then, may I ask, who _made_ him do it? Could it be.....THE RULING CLASS? Ooops, sorry, there's that phrase again.... Those of you on this list who come from America seeme oblivious, uncomprehending and wilfully ignorant of widespread world opinion regarding this. The US is seen as the Death Star....and I fully understand why. Look beyond your shores for once. Have some goddam empathy, especially those of you who call yourselves "Libertarians", all the while not giving two hoots about the deeds done in your name, on your behalf. But YOU buy the oil products..right? And given a chance, my bet is ALL you Libertarians would have gladly been there at the Big Haliburton Carve Up Iraq Barbeque if you had the chance.......you are rank opportunists, like the Bush administration and their corporate friends. "venture capitalists"??? What a concept. Why don't you examine in depth how the accounting actually works for your average, run of the mill VC setup, particularly where the money comes from and how it is carved up. Employment is the last thing that is about. Sean From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Nov 4 06:08:04 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:08:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville Message-ID: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> "The president got re-elected by dividing the country along fault lines of fear, intolerance, ignorance and religious rule. He doesn't want to heal rifts; he wants to bring any riffraff who disagree to heel. W. ran a jihad in America so he can fight one in Iraq - drawing a devoted flock of evangelicals, or "values voters," as they call themselves, to the polls by opposing abortion, suffocating stem cell research and supporting a constitutional amendment against gay marriage.": http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04dowd.html?hp ... and four more years of *that smirk.* Bushed, bamboozled and bewildered, Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 07:14:24 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:14:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> Olga, I couldn't agree more on what you say here, but the fact is, he has won. And I don't think this depends too much on the money his camp could spend on the campaign: for what I have seen, the networks were saturated with advertisement from both camps. Perhaps we will just have to acknowledge that for the time being his message of fundamentalist jihad just resonates more than ours with the average American (yes, American: a politician like Bush would never get elected in Europe where the average citizen is a bit less vulnerable to advertising and listens a bit more to what is actually said). It is up to us to change that. I think our friend Mike has a very valid point when he calls for a fact check: most people just disagree with us. Again, it is up to us to change that. A way is not to limit ourselves to preaching to the converted, but also engage in debate with those who disagree. On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 22:08:04 -0800, Olga Bourlin wrote: > "The president got re-elected by dividing the country along fault lines of > fear, intolerance, ignorance and religious rule. He doesn't want to heal > rifts; he wants to bring any riffraff who disagree to heel. > > W. ran a jihad in America so he can fight one in Iraq - drawing a devoted > flock of evangelicals, or "values voters," as they call themselves, to the > polls by opposing abortion, suffocating stem cell research and supporting a > constitutional amendment against gay marriage.": > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04dowd.html?hp > > ... and four more years of *that smirk.* > > Bushed, bamboozled and bewildered, > > Olga From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 4 07:06:42 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:06:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: to the list: I apologize for taking Mike Lorrey's bait ('chatterbox class'). It was so bizarre, that I had to say something, but I should have kept my mouth shut and let his words stand on their own. to Mike Lorrey: I don't like my words being twisted to support your rant. If you are so inclined, read what I wrote again without your baggage; I think you'll find that my words have no correspondence with what you wrote. In the future, please say what you need to say without stepping on people's back. It's better communication. From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 07:54:15 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 23:54:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> But remember the millions of Americans who are intolerant, who think homosexuality is wicked; who think their god is the one & only; who think they are going to Heaven, others are damned to hell. They put Bush where he is today. Without Bush they are still something, without them Bush is nothing. > "The president got re-elected by dividing the > country along fault lines of > fear, intolerance, ignorance and religious rule. He > doesn't want to heal > rifts; he wants to bring any riffraff who disagree > to heel. ===== Nixon for '08 - he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 08:04:25 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 00:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041104080425.68522.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Mike, let's look at Bush's anti-gay aspect. Bush knows that those who oppose tobacco are picking on the minority of smokers, yet he cannot admit the millions trying to outlaw gay marriage (and succeeding) are also picking on a minority-- gays. In the past gays wanted affirmative action, the power to force firms to hire them, plus other powers; today the situation is different. You describe the situation from both sides and we'll take it from there. > >I didn't, Amara did talking about how all of her > academia friends are > >so anti-Bush. You try to trot out that your opinion > and those of your > >friends is better because you are so well educated, > you are declaring > >your own superiority and elitism. >>Mike Lorrey ===== Nixon for '08 - he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 4 09:36:46 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:36:46 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals (was: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins...) Message-ID: Natasha: >> What can our organizations, such as Extropy Institute, do to promote good >> relations between ourselves and others throughout the world? That is a >> first step. Given the strong individualist personalities here, I think that one can add to the above: "What can *individuals* do to promote good relations between ourselves and others throughout the world?" Hal Finney: >I think that's a great question. Of course, ExI is not a major player on >the world stage and can't by itself rehabilitate America's international >image. After Bush is out, then I think that ten or twenty years will be needed to recover its reputation (America's international image). It will be a long road. >But just by asking it, we are reminded that we are not our country. Or rather, we are not our government. I would like to say something about linking people to particular places and governments. During human interactions with those in our environments, many people seem to need to fix a person to a place ("Where are you from?"), perhaps in order to categorize that person in their mind. Because once they've categorized that person, their interactions becomes easier: they can use a mental lookup table to form hypotheses, conclusions, 'facts' or prejudices, in order to know what behavior to use in order to proceed in that interaction. It's natural, because it can be scary (unconsciously) to interact with strangers, so then categorizing another person helps to overcome a person's fears. You know that I don't like categorization and 'group thinking', but to some extent, all of us use it in our daily lives. I think a worthwhile goal for improving one's inner state is to catch it and try to break it, in ourselves, or if we have energy, in others, when it happens. Starting with stereotypes. Stereotypes are all around us. Individuals initiate them, media and governments amplify them, and a feedback loop is in motion. It's hard work to filter what is possibly real and what is probably fiction. I try very hard, in the places where I live, to gather alot of data, treat people as individuals, and in my most critical mindset, I expect people to treat me the same (that is, with no stereotypes). I knew some of the stereotypes that the U.S. media/culture/government presented about other countries outside before I moved away from the U.S. I've learned, since I moved out, of some of the U.S. stereotypes that nonU.S. media/culture/government give. So then what can individuals in this extropian/transhuman community do? Try to break the stereotypes. Put this thought in the back of your mind and bring to the forefront when you feel ready to tackle it. Perhaps you will be lucky (because this is the best way) to be in a foreign place and such an opportunity will be placed in your forefront without any effort. For example: [one conversation with an old Italian man 8 months ago on the train between Frascati and Rome] him: "Where are you from?" me: "I was born in Hawaii." him: "Nice life there isn't it? But do they have good food there? You Americans like McDonalds for your food." me: "I don't remember when I ate McDonalds food last. Perhaps five years ago I ate something from McDonalds." him: "Then what do you eat?" me: "I like fresh fruit and vegetables and fresh seafood." him: "Oh! Italians like that too." ------ [one conversation with a medium age Turkish man several years ago at the dentist office in Heidelberg] him: "Where are you from?" me: "I am from California" him: "Oh! I've never visited there. I _do_ want to visit but I don't like your president, so I don't want to visit California for very long." me: "I didn't vote for the U.S. president." him: "But why did other Americans?" me: "I don't know. I think that September 11 triggered a huge fear in some Americans, and they feel safer with that man." him: "Well, I don't like him. Do you know what I want to do in California?" me: "No, tell me." him: "I want to see the Pacific Ocean, and feel it. Run from the sand on the beach and tip my toes in the wonderful ocean, and then leave California. That is enough for me." me: "It is a nice image. A dream you can work for." When I lived in the U.S. (38 years), I was annoyed that 'my society', that is, culture, media, etc. in the U.S. places where I lived gave such stereotypical or else little attention to the world outside of its borders. I wanted more data, so then with a PhD potential, I moved to Germany. Immediately, I stepped outside of the stereotypes, and I played around for a while with the idea of assuming different identities. I was 'free' to try on different personnas, perspectives, viewpoints, and it was a liberating feeling to discover that I could be whatever I wanted without the U.S. baggage. At the end of this discovery, I found that I was most comfortable with no masks, no assumed baggage, at all. I liked (and still like) this maskless way of living a great deal. However, the question: "Where are you from?" is something from which I could not escape. What do I answer? I don't like governments, and after Bush was elected, his administration become something I especially didn't agree with, so saying "United States" was out of the question for me. If I answered with particular states like Hawaii, California, then I could see in the other person's eyes, the stereotypes attached with those places (Hawaii: "paradise", California: "wacky"), but for a while: California was a good working answer. Then I moved to Italy, and it no longer worked either. [Accidently I brought my language class to hysterical laughter when I answered 'California' - they thought that my answering with a state when the correct answer was a country was very goofy. "And was I born in California?" "No I was not, I was born in Hawaii, but I have not lived in Hawaii in 30 years." "But you should have said that. Aren't you Hawaiian?" "No I am not Hawaiian. I'm half Latvian, one-quarter Greek, one-quarter German." "Oh! So then you are from Latvia." "No I am not, but my father was born in Riga. He lives in the US, now" ... and so on. This is the kind of confusion I encounter in my (rather provincial) little Italian town, where I live.] >By asking what we can do, as individuals united with common beliefs, >we emphasize that our individual actions must be distinguished from >the collective actions taken in our name by nations and other political >bodies. It's a two-way street with all of our interactions. No matter what each of us think and feel with regards to our identification (or not) with our government, state, city, family, etc., the person with whom we interact has their own perspective of us (or rather, me, the individual). So then a constantly recurring decision must be made: "Do I spend the time/energy to communicate individual-to-individual, with no masks and stereotypes, or do I slide by this opportunity because ... " (fill in the blank: "I am tired", "I am in a hurry", etc.). You see, no matter what our own perception is, communication involves (at least) two people. >Political bodies are not voluntary societies. But in democracies there are votes. Many voting systems are not perfect, but still, *some* people voted for that government. Even though _I_ know, and _you_ know how deeply split the U.S. population is/was over this election, it will be forgotten by many people out of the U.S. in a short time, and then Bush will be seen as the representative face. Bush was elected for a second term. That says *something* about the American people. The eyes looking on the U.S. will, much more than before, closely align the American people with their government, for this reason. I think individuals like ourselves have our work cut out for us, to separate ourselves from that government; if we so choose that task. I am not very willing to do that now because I would much rather focus my attention on other things. My own goal now is take care of my immediate environment (myself, family, good friends). If I do a good enough job, then what I succeed in my immediate world will spill out in my larger world. >The direction I would pursue in response to Natasha's question is simply >to emphasize this reality. We in the United States are not our country. >Neither are Europeans their countries, or their continent. Likewise with >people in all parts of the world. We are individuals, with individual >beliefs. Those beliefs are what should govern our interactions, not >the views which happen to have a numerical majority in the region where >we live. Yes.. Sometimes, I _do_ try to get this point across (see below). Amara -------------November 29, 2002------------------------------------ To: extropians at extropy.org From: Amara Graps Subject: Re: green-blue mudball (Re: ANTIOPTIMISM: Pakistan and North Korea) RonH: >That's not true. At this level, you can indeed see "borders"--they >look like fences and walls and uniformed men with guns. They are >every bit as much a part of nature as trees and mountains. I would >expect that kind "nature good, man bad" argument from Luddites, but >I expect better from Amara. It had nothing to do with "nature good, man bad", Lee. Alex understood what I was getting at. Here was the conversation again. If you want me to explain, then I will. ---------- RonH >Perhaps I am being unduly harsh in my estimate of European strategy and >I am certainly willing to listen but from here that is how it looks. Amara Graps >Last time I saw a photograph of the Earth from space, I did not >notice any lines drawn on the land masses. >From here, that is how it looks. RonH >Amara, >What does that mean? Here: http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/crew-2/html/iss002e5489.html (beautiful isn't it?) Amara ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 10:38:25 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 02:38:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals (was: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041104103825.44693.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> I can't think of anything do-able, except maybe finding someone interested in communicating with select persons in the 'Middle East' to attempt to interest them in transhumanism/extropianism. The communicator would have to be someone who knows science, who is diplomatic & empathetic. A one in a million sort of person. > Natasha: > >> What can our organizations, such as Extropy > Institute, do to promote good > >> relations between ourselves and others > throughout the world? That is a > >> first step. > > Given the strong individualist personalities here, I > think that one can > add to the above: "What can *individuals* do to > promote good relations > between ourselves and others throughout the world?" > > Hal Finney: > >I think that's a great question. Of course, ExI is > not a major player on > >the world stage and can't by itself rehabilitate > America's international > >image. > > After Bush is out, then I think that ten or twenty > years will be needed > to recover its reputation (America's international > image). It will be a > long road. > > >But just by asking it, we are reminded that we are > not our country. > > Or rather, we are not our government. > > I would like to say something about linking people > to particular places > and governments. > > During human interactions with those in our > environments, many people > seem to need to fix a person to a place ("Where are > you from?"), perhaps > in order to categorize that person in their mind. > Because once they've > categorized that person, their interactions becomes > easier: they can use > a mental lookup table to form hypotheses, > conclusions, 'facts' or > prejudices, in order to know what behavior to use in > order to proceed in > that interaction. It's natural, because it can be > scary (unconsciously) > to interact with strangers, so then categorizing > another person helps to > overcome a person's fears. > > You know that I don't like categorization and 'group > thinking', but to > some extent, all of us use it in our daily lives. I > think a worthwhile > goal for improving one's inner state is to catch it > and try to break it, > in ourselves, or if we have energy, in others, when > it happens. Starting > with stereotypes. > > Stereotypes are all around us. Individuals initiate > them, media and > governments amplify them, and a feedback loop is in > motion. It's hard work > to filter what is possibly real and what is probably > fiction. I try very > hard, in the places where I live, to gather alot of > data, treat people as > individuals, and in my most critical mindset, I > expect people to treat > me the same (that is, with no stereotypes). I knew > some of the > stereotypes that the U.S. media/culture/government > presented about other > countries outside before I moved away from the U.S. > I've learned, since > I moved out, of some of the U.S. stereotypes that > nonU.S. > media/culture/government give. So then what can > individuals in this > extropian/transhuman community do? Try to break the > stereotypes. > Put this thought in the back of your mind and bring > to the forefront > when you feel ready to tackle it. > > Perhaps you will be lucky (because this is the best > way) to be in a > foreign place and such an opportunity will be placed > in your forefront > without any effort. For example: > > [one conversation with an old Italian man 8 months > ago on the > train between Frascati and Rome] > > him: "Where are you from?" > > me: "I was born in Hawaii." > > him: "Nice life there isn't it? But do they have > good food there? > You Americans like McDonalds for your food." > > me: "I don't remember when I ate McDonalds food > last. Perhaps > five years ago I ate something from McDonalds." > > him: "Then what do you eat?" > > me: "I like fresh fruit and vegetables and fresh > seafood." > > him: "Oh! Italians like that too." > > ------ > > [one conversation with a medium age Turkish man > several years ago > at the dentist office in Heidelberg] > > him: "Where are you from?" > > me: "I am from California" > > him: "Oh! I've never visited there. I _do_ want to > visit but I don't > like your president, so I don't want to visit > California for very long." > > me: "I didn't vote for the U.S. president." > > him: "But why did other Americans?" > > me: "I don't know. I think that September 11 > triggered a huge > fear in some Americans, and they feel safer with > that man." > > him: "Well, I don't like him. Do you know what I > want to do > in California?" > > me: "No, tell me." > > him: "I want to see the Pacific Ocean, and feel it. > Run from the sand on > the beach and tip my toes in the wonderful ocean, > and then leave > California. That is enough for me." > > me: "It is a nice image. A dream you can work for." > > > When I lived in the U.S. (38 years), I was annoyed > that 'my society', > that is, culture, media, etc. in the U.S. places > where I lived gave such > stereotypical or else little attention to the world > outside of its > borders. I wanted more data, so then with a PhD > potential, I moved to > Germany. Immediately, I stepped outside of the > stereotypes, and I played > around for a while with the idea of assuming > different identities. I was > 'free' to try on different personnas, perspectives, > viewpoints, and it > was a liberating feeling to discover that I could be > whatever I wanted > without the U.S. baggage. At the end of this > discovery, I found that I was > most comfortable with no masks, no assumed baggage, > at all. I liked (and > still like) this maskless way of living a great > deal. > > However, the question: "Where are you from?" is > something from which I > could not escape. What do I answer? I don't like > governments, and after > Bush was elected, his administration become > something I especially > didn't agree with, so saying "United States" was out > of the question for > me. If I answered with particular states like > Hawaii, California, then I > could see in the other person's eyes, the > stereotypes attached with those > places (Hawaii: "paradise", California: "wacky"), > but for a while: > California was a good working answer. Then I moved > to Italy, and it no > longer worked either. > > [Accidently I brought my language class to > hysterical laughter when I > === message truncated === ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 4 10:37:28 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:37:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals (was: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins...) Message-ID: Al Brooks: >I can't think of anything do-able, except maybe finding someone >interested in communicating with select persons in the 'Middle East' to >attempt to interest them in transhumanism/extropianism. The >communicator would have to be someone who knows science, who is >diplomatic & empathetic. A one in a million sort of person. Not at all one in million. (that's the first premise you can drop). Open your mind, open your heart, look around, and smile. You'll find persons like this, if you use something like this approach. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." --Anais Nin From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 11:57:18 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:57:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Prop 71: The New Gold Rush Message-ID: <470a3c5204110403576917e016@mail.gmail.com> Wired: Scientists around the country who study embryonic stem cells may be mourning four more years of President Bush's restrictive funding policy, but California scientists are throwing a party, and top researchers in less-funded states are hoping for invitations. In the Golden State, stem cell researchers will see a windfall of $3 billion over the next 10 years, averaging about $300 million a year, thanks to the passage of Proposition 71, the California Stem Cell Research and Cures Initiative. It shouldn't be difficult to entice the best minds in the country to move to a place where their work is fully supported by a state known for its mild climate. California has found a way to supplant federal money with its stem cell initiative, and it's the envy of the rest of the country's stem cell researchers. http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,65588,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 From riel at surriel.com Thu Nov 4 12:38:45 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:38:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals (was: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins...) In-Reply-To: <20041104103825.44693.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041104103825.44693.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, Al Brooks wrote: > I can't think of anything do-able, except maybe > finding someone interested in communicating with > select persons in the 'Middle East' to attempt to > interest them in transhumanism/extropianism. The > communicator would have to be someone who knows > science, who is diplomatic & empathetic. > A one in a million sort of person. You appear to be making the assumption that it is hard to communicate with middle eastern people. This is contrary to my experiences. I have found some middle eastern people to be very openminded and easy to communicate with. Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 14:08:01 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:38:01 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <004f01c4c221$587ccde0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <004f01c4c221$587ccde0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc0411040608227a0de1@mail.gmail.com> I've been wondering whether generation Y can't actually connect with government. It seems to have much less influence in the modern western world, where each person needs to act like a service company of size 1 rather than an employee... each person secures job security (or not) through peddling a skillset rather than long service, "loyalty", or any of the other job market anachronisms. Life takes place in a chaotic decentralised self organising milleau of economy, and the top level of control seems increasingly to be a mirage. So even if Y was convinced to come out and vote, perhaps there is no generational shape to their voting, and thus the almost random split. Perhaps the left/right two party politics of today really is meaningless? The opposing major parties, especially in Australia, look more and more like factions of one party, or maybe like football teams; you back the one you were brought up to support, but really there is no difference outside of the colour of the jerseys. Vote 1 Chelsea for President! Emlyn On Wed, 3 Nov 2004 19:49:54 -0800, Spike wrote: > > Brian Lee > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > > > What puzzles me is how so many first time voters went for > > Bush. I expected all of the increase in new voter registrations to be > anti-Bush. Wierd. > > > > BAL > > > That was a common mistake, a view held by both parties. > The dems were struggling to get young voters to register > and turn out, whereas the reps were hesitant to the point > of being uncomfortable. But I saw a few interviews where > they actually went onto campuses, and learned that as a > whole, young people are not particularly liberal. They > seem balanced about the same as their parents generation. > Perhap we made an incorrect generalization about 20-somethings > based on their predecessors. Their presence at the polls > did not seem to have a big impact either way. > > Im trying to get a feel for generation Y issues. I would > think that the draft would be one of them, but the two major > parties both opposed a draft. There is a great reason for > this: we can't trust draftees in any conceivable future > conflict. I would think the right to abortion would be > a generation Y issue, but birth control is getting better, > more foolproof, so perhaps this isn't such a big deal. > > So what are the young voters thinking? > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 14:08:48 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:38:48 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0411040608227a0de1@mail.gmail.com> References: <004f01c4c221$587ccde0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <710b78fc0411040608227a0de1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0411040608386a3069@mail.gmail.com> urrrh, Chelsea is an english football team btw. Emlyn On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:38:01 +1030, Emlyn wrote: > I've been wondering whether generation Y can't actually connect with > government. It seems to have much less influence in the modern western > world, where each person needs to act like a service company of size 1 > rather than an employee... each person secures job security (or not) > through peddling a skillset rather than long service, "loyalty", or > any of the other job market anachronisms. Life takes place in a > chaotic decentralised self organising milleau of economy, and the top > level of control seems increasingly to be a mirage. > > So even if Y was convinced to come out and vote, perhaps there is no > generational shape to their voting, and thus the almost random split. > Perhaps the left/right two party politics of today really is > meaningless? The opposing major parties, especially in Australia, look > more and more like factions of one party, or maybe like football > teams; you back the one you were brought up to support, but really > there is no difference outside of the colour of the jerseys. Vote 1 > Chelsea for President! > > Emlyn > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 14:45:59 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 06:45:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <004f01c4c221$587ccde0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20041104144559.95853.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Im trying to get a feel for generation Y issues. I would > think that the draft would be one of them, but the two major > parties both opposed a draft. There is a great reason for > this: we can't trust draftees in any conceivable future > conflict. I would think the right to abortion would be > a generation Y issue, but birth control is getting better, > more foolproof, so perhaps this isn't such a big deal. > > So what are the young voters thinking? Actually, the kids are more conservative than their parents. The kids voting now are kids who were born after the advent of AIDS as a deadly epidemic, where they've learned teenage superstitions, without rational thought, that risky (shall we say, left-wing) behaviors can kill you, personally. Kids do see the consequences of drug abuse (while ignoring or unaware of the impact of black markets on quality control) as well. This is also the age of Austin Powers. Doctor Evil tried to claim that the free love of Austin's 60's persona was now considered in the 90's to be evil. Powers retorts that "if we'd known the consequences of our actions, we would have done things differently, but the spirit would be the same. Now we have freedom AND responsibility. It is a groovy time to be alive, baby, yeah." This is the message kids today are seeing and they are making a visceral connection to their political stances. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Nov 4 15:00:36 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:00:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Al Brooks > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > > But remember the millions of Americans who are > intolerant, who think homosexuality is wicked... Boy not me. I think heterosexuality is wicked. Of course I like wickedness. I wonder, Al, you might be right. Several states had anti-gay-marriage on their ballots. Perhaps the fundy ministers energized their flocks of sheeple to go the polls to vote on that, then while there they voted for the shrub? Oy. Isn't it shocking? Religion Incorporated seems to be making a raging comeback in our modern world. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 15:12:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:12:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] pay the CEOs! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041103224343.01adaec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041104151216.39704.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:38 PM 11/3/2004 -0800, Spike wrote: > > > >Those who hold the real capital are those > >who control the economy. If we want them to make the > >economy good, we need to pay them. > > I could have sworn I read in the papers that they do get paid, and > often quite well. Yes, and while those same papers always seem to write about those CEO's who get paid more for eliminating jobs, they rarely seem to write about those who get paid more for creating more jobs. One more media bias. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Nov 4 15:18:48 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:18:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals (was: Aw Nuts! BushWins...) Message-ID: <187170-220041144151848188@M2W098.mail2web.com> From: Amara Natasha: >> What can our organizations, such as Extropy Institute, do to promote good >> relations between ourselves and others throughout the world? That is a >> first step. "Given the strong individualist personalities here, I think that one can add to the above: "What can *individuals* do to promote good relations between ourselves and others throughout the world?"" Yes, that as well, but since I was speaking on behalf of ExI, it seemed more relevant in that post. Hal Finney: >I think that's a great question. Of course, ExI is not a major player on >the world stage and can't by itself rehabilitate America's international >image. "After Bush is out, then I think that ten or twenty years will be needed to recover its reputation (America's international image). It will be a long road." I don't think so. I think that what we need now is humility and dignity and that the Bush administration just might begin to show some of each. Maybe not, but I'm forecasting here and it would be in his and his administration's best interest and I think they are so self-centered that they would even go this far. As a professional futurist, one of my goals is to be more involved with the EU. If we multitrack across the economic, political, social, environmental, and technological trends, then we can see evidence of an American willingness to be more understanding of the world. The damage is done, and I think most people know that if we are to continue to be a "super" power, we better get along with everyone, especially in light of the rise in popularity and economic growth of China/Asia. >But just by asking it, we are reminded that we are not our country. "Or rather, we are not our government." Yes, good point. I have never considered myself an "American," although I still think that this country is fantastic, but am very concerned about the religious/moral movement that is in opposition to gays, abortion, and agnosticism. I certainly do not identify with any one state of the many states I have lived in; but if I did, it would be New York first. Likewise, when people as me where I am from, I say that I am transglobal (or something like that). Best, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 4 15:23:09 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:23:09 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 07:00 AM 11/4/2004 -0800, the Spikester wrote: >Isn't it shocking? Religion Incorporated seems >to be making a raging comeback in our modern world. In all sorts of brands and guises. It's bitterly ironic (to me, anyway) that avowedly hi-tech widely educated societies such as the USA and Russia have so many citizens reaching for the god pill, while their antagonists are swigging madly from the god bottle, all factions boiling away with contrived and almost arbitrary iconologies of bigotry. It starts to look as if people really *do* find secular scientific cultures too `cold' and `impersonal' and even `inhaman' to sustain the glow of life. True, there are parts of Europe and Australasia where Religion Incorporated has been sidelined for a few generations, but I'll bet it comes ripping back in the clutches. Time for humanism and transhumanism to start thinking seriously once again (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others did nearly a century ago, without getting anywhere) about some sort of secular equivalent of worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive emotionally enriched fellowship. But I don't imagine it will emerge from any bunch of INTJs like this list... Damien Broderick From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Nov 4 15:37:03 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:37:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008801c4c284$227c2750$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" > I think our friend Mike has a very valid point when he calls for a > fact check: most people just disagree with us. Again, it is up to us > to change that. A way is not to limit ourselves to preaching to the > converted, but also engage in debate with those who disagree. Yes, you're right. About all we can do is try to be good emissaries for our point of view, I suppose... As for the two "divided Americas" (as described by John Edwards in this article - the article is not all that well written, but has a few good points), it just seems as if the gap gets wider (as science and technology marches forward), and "reasoning" with those on the evangelicals' side doesn't seem to work at all.: http://www.alternet.org/election04/20406/ Olga From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 15:44:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:44:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <20041104080425.68522.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041104154432.6764.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > Mike, let's look at Bush's anti-gay aspect. Bush knows > that those who oppose tobacco are picking on the > minority of smokers, yet he cannot admit the millions > trying to outlaw gay marriage (and succeeding) are > also picking on a minority-- gays. In the past gays > wanted affirmative action, the power to force firms to > hire them, plus other powers; today the situation is > different. > You describe the situation from both sides and we'll > take it from there. Marriage licensing is an institution that was founded and steeped in bigotry, classism, racism, and superstition. Before the US Civil War, here in the US free white persons needed no marriage license. Licensing was created to control inter-racial marriage, only inter-racial and other freed black couples needed marriage licenses, while the slave states also kept records of black breeding to prevent incest. In other countries, licensing of marriage by the state was created under the feudal system to enforce the monarch's right of prima nocti (first night) to intercourse with the bride before her groom. Today the state forces couples who are not even married into common law marriage unless they've specifically signed statements before hand that they are not. The states do this to control how parents raise their kids, to force the kids into public schools, among other things. Just as being married to both your spouse and the King under prima nocti, state sanctioned marriage is a polygamous relationship with an unjust tyrant that would presume to be your superior. That gays would WANT to subject themselves to this institution indicates to those of us who know the facts that they have some ulterior motive. That motive is clearly that they want to be able to inherit their partners social security benefits, as this is the only benefit that cannot be replicated via contract law in the private sphere. I propose a deal with the gay community: you can have gay marriage licensing if you agree to let people be lawfully, rather than legally, married, outside of state sanction, and that the government won't persecute people who stay out of or retract themselves from the Social Security System. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 15:54:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 07:54:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20041104155452.8325.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > Al Brooks > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > > > > > But remember the millions of Americans who are > > intolerant, who think homosexuality is wicked... > > > Boy not me. I think heterosexuality is wicked. > > Of course I like wickedness. > > I wonder, Al, you might be right. Several states > had anti-gay-marriage on their ballots. Perhaps > the fundy ministers energized their flocks of > sheeple to go the polls to vote on that, then > while there they voted for the shrub? Yeah, we saw it here. THe fundies in Manchester, NH with new support from the Catholics here, turned out in droves and voted in record numbers for Bush, so this solidly democratic city of 104,000 was won by Bush by 1,000 votes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 16:12:08 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:12:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <008801c4c284$227c2750$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20041104161208.52089.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > As for the two "divided Americas" (as described by John Edwards in > this article - the article is not all that well written, but has a few > good points), it just seems as if the gap gets wider (as science and > technology marches forward), and "reasoning" with those on the > evangelicals' side doesn't seem to work at all. Because you walk in mocking what they believe. You then use terms that are outside their reference set. Roman Catholicism became the dominant religion in Europe because it took some core philosophy and repackaged it in the religious framework of the major groups they came across: first the Roman sun worshippers. The principles of individual liberty became dominant here because they were packaged as an 'enlightenment', which is a spiritual referent, not a scientific one. Rationalists earned tolerance and comity by presenting themselves as their own protestant sect of Unitarianism. Every attempt that is made to repackage transhumanism in a religious context is mocked. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Nov 4 16:22:33 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:22:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041104155452.8325.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041104155452.8325.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Natasha, Mike and others on this list: Is there some sort of Extropian scorecard for the different (ex-)candidates? I am sort of curious how Bush and Kerry would have stacked up. Its seems obvious to me that Bush would score very poorly on many measures, but apparently there are smart people here who voted for Bush. It would seem to me that they would have to have voted for Bush while holding their noses against his anti-extropian stench, but I am willing to convinced otherwise. So putting aside from the possibility put forward by Mike that Bush is more likely to lead to the collapse of the US economic system, thereby making way for an Extropian paradise built on its ashes, what are the good Extropian reasons for voting for Bush? On many issues it would seem obvious that fundamentalist beliefs put forward by supporters of Bush - anti-stem cell research, anti-science, anti-homosexuality (actually any sexuality that doesn't lead to a traditional Christian nuclear family), anti-drugs, anti-division between church and state, anti-privacy - are anti-extropian. The only pro-extropian statement I have see clearly articulated for Bush on this list is that he would be better (in some vague sense) for the economy. Though given what he has achieved for the US economy to date it seems more that that this is a knee-jerk reaction equating Republicans with better stewardship for economic matters than than Democrats. So please tell me why any Extropian would be willing to stand up and proudly say they voted for Bush. best, patrick From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Nov 4 16:40:37 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:40:37 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals (was: Aw Nuts! Bush Wins...) In-Reply-To: <20041104103825.44693.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041104103825.44693.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41DB29A4-2E80-11D9-8560-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 4 Nov 2004, at 11:38, Al Brooks wrote: > I can't think of anything do-able, except maybe > finding someone interested in communicating with > select persons in the 'Middle East' to attempt to > interest them in transhumanism/extropianism. What about the Midwest and the South? It would seem to me that the problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that the insane Christian meme that we have been politely ignoring for years has come home to roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not able to control the strings of government too tightly, but there are now enough fundamentalist christians to control the fate of the only remaining superpower. http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ I live in a small East German town. Just down the street I have a bunch of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up a cafe to lure and convert secular communists. These guys are really well organized and funded. Not only that I constantly bump into Mormons from Utah on the tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas trying to spread the word? What hope do progressive forces have in a democracy when they are not willing to actively engage those who disagree with them? Reading (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not going to change anyone's views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We need to become much more directly active if we want to change beliefs. We need Extropian missionaries in the South and Midwest! best, patrick From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Nov 4 17:05:04 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:05:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Supernova close to Earth Message-ID: According to this report a supernova occurred 100-200 light years distant about 2.8 million years ago: http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041101/full/041101-5.html Authors make the grandiose statement that their supernova may have been directly responsible for the emergence of Homo sapiens as a dominant species due to resultant changes in climate. best, patrick From amara at amara.com Thu Nov 4 16:56:49 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:56:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard Message-ID: Patrick Wilken Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE : >So please tell me why any Extropian would be willing to stand up and >proudly say they voted for Bush. Certainly not me, but with some irony, I note some possibilities for those here who might not like big government: Perhaps in the not-to-distant future, there will be so many discontented, angry and frustrated people under the Bush administration, that serious and long-lasting changes to the US government and to US religious fundamentalistalist institutions will be the only option to head off mass emigration or mass suicide. Amara P.S. I recommend the posts from the boingboing web site yesterday (recommended reading for all) http://www.boingboing.net/ -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "Never squat with your spurs on." -- Texan Proverb From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 4 17:21:04 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:21:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Supernova close to Earth In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104111649.0199a458@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 06:05 PM 11/4/2004 +0100, Patrick Wilken wrote: >According to this report a supernova occurred 100-200 light years distant >about 2.8 million years ago: > >http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041101/full/041101-5.html > >Authors make the grandiose statement that their supernova may have been >directly responsible for the emergence of Homo sapiens as a dominant >species due to resultant changes in climate. That would be the one I conjectured in THE DREAMING DRAGONS back in 1980. :) There, it was also responsible for the emergence of H. sap., but by somewhat... different... means. Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Nov 4 17:41:33 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:41:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] "Religious" transhumanism In-Reply-To: <20041104161208.52089.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041104174133.63133.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > As for the two "divided Americas" (as described by > John Edwards in > > this article - the article is not all that well > written, but has a > few > > good points), it just seems as if the gap gets > wider (as science and > > technology marches forward), and "reasoning" with > those on the > > evangelicals' side doesn't seem to work at all. > > Because you walk in mocking what they believe. You > then use terms that > are outside their reference set. > > Roman Catholicism became the dominant religion in > Europe because it > took some core philosophy and repackaged it in the > religious framework > of the major groups they came across: first the > Roman sun worshippers. > > The principles of individual liberty became dominant > here because they > were packaged as an 'enlightenment', which is a > spiritual referent, not > a scientific one. Rationalists earned tolerance and > comity by > presenting themselves as their own protestant sect > of Unitarianism. > > Every attempt that is made to repackage > transhumanism in a religious > context is mocked. ...not *quite* every attempt. But almost. I've managed to score the occasional success with the religious, by preaching on the evidence of what God gave us. "If God meant for us to figure out His powers, He would have given us the ability to do so. Oh, wait - He did!" Any major invention or discovery, such as flight or genetics, can be claimed to have had divine inspiration. Part of His plan...but for what? How about to guide us towards being His companions? Our powers and abilities seem to grow closer to what would have been considered supernatural everyday. So does humanity's collective wisdom, despite certain notable instances of lack of wisdom. If you take it as faith that mankind is meant to become a race of gods, then the Singularity (or, at least, certain forms of it) seems but a step along that path. This includes evolving ethics and morals: accept all thy neighbors, save those that seek to harm others. (Thus, gay marriage is simply a non-issue. But people who commit violence against others knowing no reason other than claiming "God's will" are, in fact, acting against God's will. Catholics, Protestants, Muslims - it doesn't matter: to fight in God's name alone, as opposed to fighting for peace or some other part of the divine wisdom, is to blaspheme God, no matter how much you may worship.) Some may seek to hold to tradition for tradition's sake, but it is mankind's power to learn and change, not to fossilize. God provides, via evolution, the slow mechanism that the beasts of the wild need to adapt to changing circumstance, but we are blessed with the ability to change ourselves - which we are clearly meant to use. Witness the largely self-inflicted suffering of that portion of humanity which refuses to adapt, not just the physical technologies, but also the social wisdom that has been invented: democracies works much better than dictatorships, as can be seen by taking an honest look at the current examples of both. (The CIA World Factbook, among other sources, can give stats to back this up. Who needs revealed wisdom as translated, and possibly mistranslated, from our ancestors? People write books, but God writes our modern day-to-day reality that even dispassionate, neutral observers observe.) This even works with agnosticism or atheism: just preface it all with "If God exists". If not, then these same things need no divine blessing (given the lack of a divine), and are merely paths to the empowerment of all humanity, giving us the ability to master the universe we happen to find ourselves in - which is surely the next best thing to divine purpose. (This is the version that I personally believe, but I am willing to admit my morals are justified even if there is a God, as described above.) How's that for a start? From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 17:42:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:42:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Supernova close to Earth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041104174235.68107.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > According to this report a supernova occurred 100-200 light years > distant about 2.8 million years ago: > > http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041101/full/041101-5.html > > Authors make the grandiose statement that their supernova may have > been > directly responsible for the emergence of Homo sapiens as a dominant > species due to resultant changes in climate. Tabloid headline: Planet Krypton found.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Thu Nov 4 18:00:35 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:00:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville Message-ID: <20041104180035.9BF7457E2A@finney.org> Damien writes: > It's bitterly ironic (to me, anyway) > that avowedly hi-tech widely educated societies such as the USA and Russia > have so many citizens reaching for the god pill, while their antagonists > are swigging madly from the god bottle, all factions boiling away with > contrived and almost arbitrary iconologies of bigotry. It starts to look as > if people really *do* find secular scientific cultures too `cold' and > `impersonal' and even `inhaman' to sustain the glow of life. True, there > are parts of Europe and Australasia where Religion Incorporated has been > sidelined for a few generations, but I'll bet it comes ripping back in the > clutches. Time for humanism and transhumanism to start thinking seriously > once again (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others did nearly a century > ago, without getting anywhere) about some sort of secular equivalent of > worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive emotionally enriched > fellowship. But I don't imagine it will emerge from any bunch of INTJs like > this list... There was an article in the Los Angeles Times last week, http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-me-beliefs30oct30,1,223262.story?coll=la-news-state (for subscribers): : Nation's Unchurched Doubled in Decade, Poll Finds : : The proportion of Americans who say they have no religious affiliation : doubled over the last decade and now stands at 16% of the population, : according to a new study on religious identity. : : Only Catholics (24%) and Baptists (17%) outnumber the so-called : "non-identifiers," or "nones," said the report - "The Decline of : Religious Identity in the United States" - by the Institute for Jewish : & Community Research in San Francisco. : : The nationwide survey, based on telephone interviews with more than : 10,000 randomly selected people, said about one in six answered : "none" or "no religion" or described themselves as secular, humanist, : ethical-culturalist, agnostic or atheist. : : Their ranks will continue to grow, and they'll soon outnumber Baptists, : according to Gary A. Tobin, president of the institute and a coauthor : of the study. : : "They may believe in God," he said of the unaffiliated. "The : question is: Why don't they want to be associated with some religious : denomination? It's probably time for organized religion to take a look : at itself and see what they should be doing differently or better to : involve more people." : ... : Americans younger than 35 are most likely to be nonidentifiers, : and those over 65 are least likely to be unaffiliated, the study : said. Residents of the West lead the nation in the proportion of those : who don't identity with a religion - 24% compared to 14% for the rest : of the country except New England, which had 21%. Men are less likely : to identify with a religious denomination than women, 20% to 13%. This could be a further sign of the much-noted American polarization, with religious people perhaps becoming more entrenched in their beliefs, while the "no religions" are expanding their numbers as well. Hal From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Nov 4 18:15:14 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:15:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard Message-ID: <290150-220041144181514880@M2W099.mail2web.com> Hi Patrick, I am a non-party voter, and at the moment, I do not have much to say on this. But to answer your questino, I suppose one way of looking at it is that President Bush would be more aggressive toward protecting the U.S. and its citizens against terrorism. He also says he wants to reform taxation. I'm not sure either of these two examples would be in any way extropic because of the nature of the President. His "heart" just isn't in the right place. I think Greg Burch said it best a month or two ago. Natasha Original Message: ----------------- From: Patrick Wilken Patrick.Wilken at nat.uni-magdeburg.de Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:22:33 +0100 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard Natasha, Mike and others on this list: Is there some sort of Extropian scorecard for the different (ex-)candidates? I am sort of curious how Bush and Kerry would have stacked up. Its seems obvious to me that Bush would score very poorly on many measures, but apparently there are smart people here who voted for Bush. It would seem to me that they would have to have voted for Bush while holding their noses against his anti-extropian stench, but I am willing to convinced otherwise. So putting aside from the possibility put forward by Mike that Bush is more likely to lead to the collapse of the US economic system, thereby making way for an Extropian paradise built on its ashes, what are the good Extropian reasons for voting for Bush? On many issues it would seem obvious that fundamentalist beliefs put forward by supporters of Bush - anti-stem cell research, anti-science, anti-homosexuality (actually any sexuality that doesn't lead to a traditional Christian nuclear family), anti-drugs, anti-division between church and state, anti-privacy - are anti-extropian. The only pro-extropian statement I have see clearly articulated for Bush on this list is that he would be better (in some vague sense) for the economy. Though given what he has achieved for the US economy to date it seems more that that this is a knee-jerk reaction equating Republicans with better stewardship for economic matters than than Democrats. So please tell me why any Extropian would be willing to stand up and proudly say they voted for Bush. best, patrick _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Nov 4 18:19:22 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:19:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <418A72AA.1080704@jefallbright.net> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 07:00 AM 11/4/2004 -0800, the Spikester wrote: > >> Isn't it shocking? Religion Incorporated seems >> to be making a raging comeback in our modern world. > > > In all sorts of brands and guises. It's bitterly ironic (to me, > anyway) that avowedly hi-tech widely educated societies such as the > USA and Russia have so many citizens reaching for the god pill, while > their antagonists are swigging madly from the god bottle, all factions > boiling away with contrived and almost arbitrary iconologies of > bigotry. It starts to look as if people really *do* find secular > scientific cultures too `cold' and `impersonal' and even `inhaman' to > sustain the glow of life. True, there are parts of Europe and > Australasia where Religion Incorporated has been sidelined for a few > generations, but I'll bet it comes ripping back in the clutches. Time > for humanism and transhumanism to start thinking seriously once again > (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others did nearly a century ago, > without getting anywhere) about some sort of secular equivalent of > worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive emotionally enriched > fellowship. But I don't imagine it will emerge from any bunch of INTJs > like this list... > > Damien Broderick I think I see how it could be done in a completely honest and pragmatic way, as many scientists know the experience of awesome beauty, the feelings of humility and oneness, and the practical advantages of a scientific and rational approach to understanding our place in the universe. I think INTJs and INTPs are the personalities most in touch with this and would have little problem developing it and presenting it to similar types, which, however, amount to only a few percent of the population. The difficulty is in how to present such concepts to a wider audience, as a path of inspiration and growth, in such a way that they aren't distorted and diluted beyond recognition. - Jef http://www.jefallbright.net From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Nov 4 18:32:03 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:32:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > It starts to look as > if people really *do* find secular scientific > cultures too `cold' and > `impersonal' and even `inhaman' to sustain the glow > of life. True, there > are parts of Europe and Australasia where Religion > Incorporated has been > sidelined for a few generations, but I'll bet it > comes ripping back in the > clutches. Time for humanism and transhumanism to > start thinking seriously > once again (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others > did nearly a century > ago, without getting anywhere) about some sort of > secular equivalent of > worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive > emotionally enriched > fellowship. Consider the psychological needs that are fulfilled through worship. No matter who you are or how you have conducted your life, there is someone who cares about you, and who values your efforts. You have no need to justify yourself; you are accepted, even if everyone else believes you're a total screw-up whose negligence kills people on a regular basis. Religion is spiritual candy, while we offer spiritual nutrition. Similar tactics may work in selling our philosophy: find ways that the nutritional alternative still "tastes" good. But one must consider different peoples' tastes. Those who strongly prefer self-empowerment already come to us. Leaving things to some unapproachable God while one's own efforts ultimately come to nought? No thanks: I'd rather be my own person, among others who are their own people. But homo sapiens is a social animal, so we should not be so surprised to find humans whose most important need (beyond needs related to continued physical existance) are for community and acceptance. "I screwed up; do you still love me?" This is, perhaps, inherently difficult for us to convey: there is no source of love separate from the mass of humanity that an evil person may harm. God would still accept a sinner, they claim, but those who are sinned against are naturally upset. We might claim "tough love" when we punish minor sinners before releasing them back into society - but "tough love" can be hard to perceive, and God usually does not even inflict that in practice. (Biblical stories are one thing, but most believers probably at least subconsciously know the difference between reality and what they profess. Else why so much sorrow at funerals, when there should be joy that the departed is going to a better place?) Perhaps this just boils down to a lesson in the nature of humanity: always try to deliver your message in a friendly tone. Never discard happiness unless dealing with people who admit they are trying to destroy your happiness as a goal in itself. (Anyone sophisticated enough to actually have this as a goal without admitting it is also almost certainly aware of the desirability of achieving the goals they do admit to without destroying your happiness if possible. But more often, those who seem to be intent on destroying happiness only do so incidental to their real goal, no matter how blind to your suffering they are, and would be willing to avoid angering you if they were aware of alternatives that achieve their goal without the negative consequences.) Happiness may be incidental to the message you are trying to deliver, but it is a method that works - and in the end, are we not mostly about doing that which works? ...although this is a tough problem. I review the above, and I'm not entirely happy with my proposed solution. But what do others think? From glc at cartwrightlawgroup.com Thu Nov 4 18:36:31 2004 From: glc at cartwrightlawgroup.com (Gregory Cartwright) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:36:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard References: <20041104155452.8325.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012701c4c29d$357a7b90$1300005a@greg> Why I Voted For Bush (or how I quit worrying and learned to love the war) While I generally try not to label myself with terms like extropian, libertarian, progressive, transhumanist, etc., I can say that I am sympathetic to these ideas and that they come closest to the "isms" I've accepted as more true than not. So the question is why I voted for Bush. I guess one of the first lessons I learned about politics from a libertarian view is that the attempt at a perfect social order through a particular ism, (communmism, fascism, socialism) usually only leads to a worsening of the human condition. It is better to look at the world as it is, and understand human behavior as it is and base your decisions on that. Without democracy and capitalism, I don't feel that extropian concepts will get very far. Before Bush, there was a theocracy in Afghanistan. Now there is a fledgling democracy. Before Bush there was a dictator in Iraq. Now there will be elections in January. Before Bush Libya was a rogue nation, now it has given up its weapons program, paid a huge cash settlement for its sponsorship of terrorism and is beginning to normalize relations with the rest of the world. Before Bush, North Korea refused to participate in multilateral talks, now it has agreed and participated in those. (In fact, South Korea just announced it is opening a diplomatic office in North Korea after the first of the year.) Somebody much smarter than me once said that for evil to flourish requires only that good men do nothing. While American foreign policy is not infallible, and is often brutish, what is the alternative? To do nothing? I think as Americans we bear a special burdern with respect to Iraq since we supported evil there for so long. That was wrong for us to do. Is continuing to do nothing with respect to that regime better? Many, including Kerry want the US to engage in cooperation. Multi-lateralism is easy to claim as the right way to proceed, but doesn't always easy to make work. We all know that decision making by committee does not always yield the best outcome. Add to that the problems when those on the committee have financial interests. It is now well established that member states on the security counsel illegally allowed their companies to do business with Saddam. Others within the UN food-for-oil program were being bribed with oil contracts and/or futures contracts. Is it any wonder that the US acted alone? Much of the hatred for Bush is based upon his personality as much as the mistakes he's made. I cannot help but see the similarities with Clinton in this respect. While these the personality traits complained of are different as well as the the detractors, the result is much the same. People have a hard time separating these two things. I really object to Bush's religious bent, and what on this listserve has been described as "anti-science" or "anti-extropian." worldview. But there is never a perfect candidate. The only question for me was who will continue to aggressively expand democracy and fight terrorism. More importantly, what policies will reduce the conditions which give terrorism its base. I believe that a secular, relatively well off country that is democractic is less likely to sponsor terrorist and less likely to support the conditions which give rise to it. After thinking about these issues, I held my nose and pulled the lever. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Wilken" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:22 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard > Natasha, Mike and others on this list: > > Is there some sort of Extropian scorecard for the different > (ex-)candidates? I am sort of curious how Bush and Kerry would have > stacked up. Its seems obvious to me that Bush would score very poorly on > many measures, but apparently there are smart people here who voted for > Bush. It would seem to me that they would have to have voted for Bush > while holding their noses against his anti-extropian stench, but I am > willing to convinced otherwise. So putting aside from the possibility put > forward by Mike that Bush is more likely to lead to the collapse of the US > economic system, thereby making way for an Extropian paradise built on its > ashes, what are the good Extropian reasons for voting for Bush? > > On many issues it would seem obvious that fundamentalist beliefs put > forward by supporters of Bush - anti-stem cell research, anti-science, > anti-homosexuality (actually any sexuality that doesn't lead to a > traditional Christian nuclear family), anti-drugs, anti-division between > church and state, anti-privacy - are anti-extropian. > > The only pro-extropian statement I have see clearly articulated for Bush > on this list is that he would be better (in some vague sense) for the > economy. Though given what he has achieved for the US economy to date it > seems more that that this is a knee-jerk reaction equating Republicans > with better stewardship for economic matters than than Democrats. > > So please tell me why any Extropian would be willing to stand up and > proudly say they voted for Bush. > > best, patrick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 4 18:39:17 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:39:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... References: <20041104154432.6764.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005401c4c29d$97fada30$a51e4842@kevin> This is similar to a proposal I have been constructing. The problem is not that gays should be allowed to marry. The problem is that the state should get out of the marriage business altogether. Churches should marry people, the state should enforce contract law. Any two people can create a contract. Of course, This means doing away with the entire "married filing jointly" or "married filing separately" lines on the 1040. Instead, you get individual returns only.... But I would rather see a national sales tax which would do away with this as well. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... > > --- Al Brooks wrote: > > > Mike, let's look at Bush's anti-gay aspect. Bush knows > > that those who oppose tobacco are picking on the > > minority of smokers, yet he cannot admit the millions > > trying to outlaw gay marriage (and succeeding) are > > also picking on a minority-- gays. In the past gays > > wanted affirmative action, the power to force firms to > > hire them, plus other powers; today the situation is > > different. > > You describe the situation from both sides and we'll > > take it from there. > > Marriage licensing is an institution that was founded and steeped in > bigotry, classism, racism, and superstition. Before the US Civil War, > here in the US free white persons needed no marriage license. Licensing > was created to control inter-racial marriage, only inter-racial and > other freed black couples needed marriage licenses, while the slave > states also kept records of black breeding to prevent incest. > > In other countries, licensing of marriage by the state was created > under the feudal system to enforce the monarch's right of prima nocti > (first night) to intercourse with the bride before her groom. > > Today the state forces couples who are not even married into common law > marriage unless they've specifically signed statements before hand that > they are not. The states do this to control how parents raise their > kids, to force the kids into public schools, among other things. Just > as being married to both your spouse and the King under prima nocti, > state sanctioned marriage is a polygamous relationship with an unjust > tyrant that would presume to be your superior. > > That gays would WANT to subject themselves to this institution > indicates to those of us who know the facts that they have some > ulterior motive. That motive is clearly that they want to be able to > inherit their partners social security benefits, as this is the only > benefit that cannot be replicated via contract law in the private > sphere. > > I propose a deal with the gay community: you can have gay marriage > licensing if you agree to let people be lawfully, rather than legally, > married, outside of state sanction, and that the government won't > persecute people who stay out of or retract themselves from the Social > Security System. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 4 18:40:16 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:40:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... References: Message-ID: <005a01c4c29d$bb30fb60$a51e4842@kevin> Out of curiosity, did you personally benefit from President Bush's tax cuts? From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Nov 4 19:08:30 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:08:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship In-Reply-To: <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418A7E2E.7030700@jefallbright.net> Adrian Tymes wrote: > Happiness may be incidental to the message you are trying to deliver, > but it is a > method that works - and in the end, are we not mostly about doing that > which works? This is a key piece of the puzzle, true and profound. - Jef From harara at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 4 19:22:54 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:22:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship In-Reply-To: <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041104111039.029010d0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I've been a cryonicist for years. Last year, at a local cryo meeting a woman who has been a member for a few years, remarked, "You just can't change human nature". She got an education on this topic from me! Very few people think very far. The culture outside of the rational world is based on feelings and not thinking. The New Age disdains thinking. (Several months ago the Skeptical Inquirer had a good article by a woman who had spent most her life in New Agery, and came over to rationalism.) If the history of accepting medical procedures, jet planes, and the internet are a guide, it is direct self interest which wins the day. In your face, everyone else is doing it, gotta deal with it, oh, really is useful after all. I personally went through two versions of this lately. 1: Cell Phone, after 5 months of not using it, suddenly was useful to coordinate a meeting in a strange town. Oh. 2: Starting a non centralized business thing, mostly on email, cornered into using Skpye for teleconferencing, OH, nice to have email on screen while we talk. If it is useful, and it is easier to use it since others do so anyway, it gets accepted. If any of the pills spammers try to sell men actually worked, we would all know it soon, and fortunes would be made, within a few months. Reality supercedes possibility. The usual objection to Cryonics these days is "if it worked, I'd sign up". Well, a rabbit has been to -22deg C and back, so this may come any day now..... >...although this is a tough problem. I review the >above, and I'm not entirely happy with my proposed >solution. But what do others think? >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Thu Nov 4 19:24:21 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:24:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... In-Reply-To: <005a01c4c29d$bb30fb60$a51e4842@kevin> References: <005a01c4c29d$bb30fb60$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041104112349.028f7ff8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> HAH. I happened to owe $ to tax, so I never got the check, just a new lower number I owed. At 10:40 AM 11/4/2004, you wrote: >Out of curiosity, did you personally benefit from President Bush's tax cuts? > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Nov 4 19:49:44 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:49:44 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville Message-ID: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Perhaps we will just have to acknowledge that for the time being his > message of fundamentalist jihad just resonates more than ours with the > average American (yes, American: a politician like Bush would never > get elected in Europe where the average citizen is a bit less > vulnerable to advertising and listens a bit more to what is actually > said). It is up to us to change that. This clueless nonsense is PRECISELY why the Democrats lose generally (ignoring that Kerry was a really lousy candidate). And I'm saying this as someone who is neither a Republican nor a Democrat and has lived in a great many places and is familiar with their local cultures. The Democrats and the left wing at large and the Europeans (which have attrocious media coverage of US politics -- it is more "fair and balanced" in Communist Asia) need to come to grips with the fact that the majority of Republicans are neither ill-educated, un-worldly, or even particularly religious. Some factions are, but not the major portion of the party. That is nothing more than the liberal Democrats trying to make themselves feel better by putting down the other guy and not bothering to really study their opponent. Most Republicans I know, and I know many having lived in many traditionally conservative areas (I even have aunts and uncles who are fairly senior GOP officials), are pro-choice, very well travelled and worldly, non-religious (many atheists), and as educated as your average Democrat. As long as the Democrats and liberals maintain the fiction that Republicans are ignorant hillbillies, religious white trash, and country club executives, they will continue to get their clocks cleaned in the elections because they do not know their opponent (see: Sun Tzu). A great many average people in the US still believe in the Constitutional notion that the job of the Federal government is to take care of security, foreign policy, and to make the economy run smoothly. That's it. A lot of those Red State folks would just as soon have the Federal government stay out of everything else. You'll notice that marijuana decriminalization acts and similar are being put on the ballot and passing NOT in liberal states, but primarily in "conservative" western states. The Democrats *used* to be primarily about blue collar economic issues, which is where they found most of their power in the 20th century, and had minimal differences on foreign policy with the Republicans. Now they've essentially abandoned those and are all about social issues that the blue collar class does not believe is the domain of the Federal government in general but the local government's, and often does not reflect their personal values anyway. The bottom line is that the Republicans have a well-vetted and well-known economic and foreign policy plan, whether you agree with it or not, and they run on it. The Democrats stopped talking about real meat-and-potatoes economics years ago in favor of stumping on social issues and no longer even have a coherent and well-vetted economic and foreign policy strategy that most people can describe or follow. At the very least it pales in comparison to the Republicans in that area. There is a huge number of people who vote primarily on economics and foreign policy, and would rather social policy be a local issue. Given that the Democrats are very muddy on both economics and foreign policy, and many people don't believe the Feds (nor judges) should be involved in social policy, the choice is obvious for many people because the Democrats provide no credible alternative. This includes a hell of a lot of pro-choice, non-religious, gay-friendly people that the Democrats foolishly claim as their own -- I know many, many Republicans throughout "Red States" that meet this description. The Democrats will continue to lose ground until they start stumping for credible economic policies again, and clean up their foreign policy positions. And the best thing they could do on social issues is to push for local control of such things. If they just dig in and try more strident Federal social policy positions as the centerpiece of their party, they will continue to lose support among "average" Americans. It seems to me that the Democrats are misreading the outcome and are bound and determined to make the same mistakes all over again, primarily because they are working off a ridiculous stereotype of their opposition as though it had some grounding in reality. j. andrew rogers From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Nov 4 20:08:02 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:08:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <20041104200802.83269.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Much of what you say makes sense, but... --- "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: > Given > that the Democrats are very muddy on both economics > and foreign policy, > and many people don't believe the Feds (nor judges) > should be involved > in social policy, the choice is obvious for many > people because the > Democrats provide no credible alternative. This > includes a hell of a > lot of pro-choice, non-religious, gay-friendly > people that the Democrats > foolishly claim as their own -- I know many, many > Republicans throughout > "Red States" that meet this description. ...explain the anti-gay-marriage proposals that passed in several of these states, then. (Unless these people would prefer that "marriage", as a term, be removed from government control, though civil unions could be recognized. But I heard that at least one of the proposals specifically banned civil unions between members of the same gender as well.) From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 20:44:46 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 15:44:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... Message-ID: Everyone who makes over the minimum deduction and pays US taxes benefit from Bush's tax cuts (since he introduced a 10% bracket for the low end). You may want to rephrase your question to "How much did you benefit from Bush's tax cuts?" since pretty much everyone saved a couple hundred bucks or so. BAL >From: "Kevin Freels" >To: "ExI chat list" >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Aw Nuts! Bush Wins... >Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:40:16 -0600 > >Out of curiosity, did you personally benefit from President Bush's tax >cuts? > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Nov 4 20:55:57 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:55:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville Message-ID: <1099601757.12057@whirlwind.he.net> Adrian Tymes wrote: > ...explain the anti-gay-marriage proposals that passed > in several of these states, then. (Unless these > people would prefer that "marriage", as a term, be > removed from government control, though civil unions > could be recognized. But I heard that at least one of > the proposals specifically banned civil unions between > members of the same gender as well.) Maybe you should look at a map of California's results on the same ballot initiative. Same overwhelming results, even in many very liberal counties. This isn't a conservative religious issue, since they can't even make this fly in many very liberal political districts in which the Religious Right is all but non-existent. I know more than one homosexual in the Bay Area who is against it. The reasons people are against it often aren't even based in religion. Top reasons why it people voted it down here in Silicon Valley, from my own personal purely anecdotal polling: Wrong solution to the issue; the state should get out of the "marriage" business altogether. This is my personal position. It is a well-defined cultural institution independent of religion, and no one is prohibited from being married. This is entirely consistent with most law, and one could view virtually *any* law as discriminatory to some group if this was viewed as discriminatory. Detaching any special considerations from legal marriage and letting the definition stand is a better solution. Many people like the institution the way it is in the same way they like Christmas the way it is even if they are not Christians. And of course, the moral/religious objection, which you don't see much of in Silicon Valley, though it is undoubtedly more common in places like the deep south. There are plenty of reasons that people are vote down gay marriage initiatives that cannot reasonably be construed as "anti-gay", particularly since some gays subscribe to one or more of these reasons. Hell, one can even find examples of the very rare homosexual who objects to this on religious grounds. Given the diversity of reasonable positions against gay marriage out there even if one is gay or not religious, I am not surprised that gay marriage is DOA as an issue. It crosses a lot of political positions. Anybody who thinks gay marriage is purely a religious issue is ignoring the data. I have a hard time believing that two-thirds of the California population are members of the "Religious Right". j. andrew rogers From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 22:20:08 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:20:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville Message-ID: I think the anti-Gay spans parties too. The percentages in favor of the anti-Gay marriage acts in the 11 states included dems and repubs. This is why Kerry wouldn't come out in favor of gay marriage. I think this can be attributed to the fact that lots of Americans are anti-homosexual, don't approve of their "lifestyle" and don't want to allow same sex marriage. As to why this is? My guess is religious roots as it's not really very logical. I favor someone else on this list who suggested that the gov't get out of the marriage business altogether and only allow civil unions. Then any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. I sort of think back 50 years to when civil rights and racism spaned party lines until the civil rights movements. 50 years from now we'll be looking back in shock at how backwards we were. BAL >From: Adrian Tymes >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville >Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:08:02 -0800 (PST) > >Much of what you say makes sense, but... > >--- "J. Andrew Rogers" >wrote: > > Given > > that the Democrats are very muddy on both economics > > and foreign policy, > > and many people don't believe the Feds (nor judges) > > should be involved > > in social policy, the choice is obvious for many > > people because the > > Democrats provide no credible alternative. This > > includes a hell of a > > lot of pro-choice, non-religious, gay-friendly > > people that the Democrats > > foolishly claim as their own -- I know many, many > > Republicans throughout > > "Red States" that meet this description. > >...explain the anti-gay-marriage proposals that passed >in several of these states, then. (Unless these >people would prefer that "marriage", as a term, be >removed from government control, though civil unions >could be recognized. But I heard that at least one of >the proposals specifically banned civil unions between >members of the same gender as well.) >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Nov 4 22:38:16 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:38:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Issue: Norton AntiVirus Affecting my Brain Message-ID: <410-220041144223816938@M2W099.mail2web.com> Does anyone have a contact at Symatic, or know of how to get through their iron wall? Thanks Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Nov 4 22:48:07 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:48:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041104224807.17010.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > I think the anti-Gay spans parties too. The percentages in favor of > the anti-Gay marriage acts in the 11 states included dems and repubs. > This is why Kerry wouldn't come out in favor of gay marriage. > > I think this can be attributed to the fact that lots of Americans are > anti-homosexual, don't approve of their "lifestyle" and don't want to > allow same sex marriage. > > As to why this is? My guess is religious roots as it's not really > very logical. Still not getting it. The most common refrain that pollsters found was that people were saying "I'm not against gays, I just don't want them rubbing my face in it." If a person likes to look at pictures only of beautiful people, you can't say they hate ugly people. Cultural extroverts are offended that cultural introverts don't like extroverts 'rubbing their faces in it'. It isn't about hate, or being 'anti-extrovert', its about having an equal right to be an introvert in peace and quiet. The extrovert may feel that their rights are being restrained when they are restrained from rubbing introverts faces in their extroversion, but too friggin bad, there are limits. > > I favor someone else on this list who suggested that the gov't get > out of the marriage business altogether and only allow civil unions. > Then any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. Thank you. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com Thu Nov 4 23:06:43 2004 From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:06:43 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <418AB603.1030204@dsl.pipex.com> Brian Lee wrote: > I favor someone else on this list who suggested that the gov't get out > of the marriage business altogether and only allow civil unions. Then > any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. I don't understand this position at all. You'd be allowing gay marriage, but not calling any marriage marriage, but any organisation that wants to call a marriage marriage would be free to do so and would also be free to discriminate against homosexuals? Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease bigots? BM From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Nov 4 23:17:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:17:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Face Rubbing in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041104224807.17010.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041104224807.17010.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104171411.01985498@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 02:48 PM 11/4/2004 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >Still not getting it. The most common refrain that pollsters found was >that people were saying "I'm not against gays, I just don't want them >rubbing my face in it." The usual way this sort of response is framed in Australia, to my amazed mirth, is: `I'm not against ho-mo-sexuals, I just don't want them shoving it down my throat.' Damien Broderick From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Nov 4 23:20:58 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:20:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville Message-ID: I was suggesting that marriage no longer be a legal arrangement, but a social one only. Then civil unions would take the place of marriage but would not have the cultural/religious heterosexual element to them. The government would then recognize civil unions for tax purposes, power of attorney, etc but not marriage. BAL >From: Bryan Moss >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville >Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:06:43 +0000 > >Brian Lee wrote: > >>I favor someone else on this list who suggested that the gov't get out of >>the marriage business altogether and only allow civil unions. Then any >>marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. > > >I don't understand this position at all. You'd be allowing gay marriage, >but not calling any marriage marriage, but any organisation that wants to >call a marriage marriage would be free to do so and would also be free to >discriminate against homosexuals? > >Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease bigots? > >BM >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 23:33:04 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:33:04 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Issue: Norton AntiVirus Affecting my Brain In-Reply-To: <410-220041144223816938@M2W099.mail2web.com> References: <410-220041144223816938@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:38:16 -0500, natasha wrote: > Does anyone have a contact at Symatic, or know of how to get through their > iron wall? > Give up the struggle. Delete it - they don't deserve your money. Install AVG Free (or pay for the Professional version) though you may want to wait a week or so as they are just about to upgrade to the next version. Or, Install Avast! Home edition (Free) or buy the professional version. Either is as good as Norton antivirus and they both provide free database updates every day or two. Best wishes, BillK From etcs.ret at verizon.net Thu Nov 4 23:39:24 2004 From: etcs.ret at verizon.net (stencil) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:39:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] marriage and the State In-Reply-To: <200411041900.iA4J0A006349@tick.javien.com> References: <200411041900.iA4J0A006349@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <1adlo0hiv7o4p0cdtf9nle5vo169skttn1@4ax.com> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:39:17 -0600 Kevin Freels wrote in extropy-chat Digest, Vol 14, Issue 9 > [ ... ] > The problem is not >that gays should be allowed to marry. The problem is that the state should >get out of the marriage business altogether. Churches should marry people, >the state should enforce contract law. Any two people can create a contract. The churches, or at least the Church, are quick and strong to protest that they are not in the marrying business, nor is anyone else with the sole exception of the couple directly involved. http://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0017/__P3U.HTM As Mike Lorrey indicated, the actions of the Roman church, of other churches, and of secular states, have largely focused on prohibiting or rewarding marriages to achieve various agendas unrelated to marriage per se. If one ignores or evades canon law's qualifiers, the core definition of marriage identifies it as an act will shared by the partners, and a resulting ongoing condition; If he and she, or you and your partner, or Geoffrey and his refrigerator, mutually will yourselves to be a partnership, then the magic works, and marriage is. The obvious problem is that, having snuck in to see the show, you lack a ticket stub when time comes to distribute the door prizes. Since in most Western countries the material benefits of sanctioned marriage greatly outweigh plain-vanilla connubial bliss (Google, "divorce") ya gotta believe that gay marriage is merely another porkbarrel scheme, the moral equivalent of a research grant to dig up the Ohio mounds in search of artifacts of the lost tribes of the Bible. If the taxpayers don't buy into it, it doesn't necessarily mean they're archaeological or ecclesiastical bigots; they may just see better uses for their money. stencil sends From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Nov 4 23:45:05 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:45:05 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this may be where I would stand also. It disturbs me when long-term partners are not afforded "next-of-kin" status in emergency health situations. Or inheiritance. I have friends who've been together more than 25 years... they're more "married" than most married couples I know. But not in the eyes of the law. Something needs adjusting here. ... it sounds like I'm only respecting long-term relationships, but that's not the point. Regards, MB On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, Brian Lee wrote: > I was suggesting that marriage no longer be a legal arrangement, but a > social one only. Then civil unions would take the place of marriage but > would not have the cultural/religious heterosexual element to them. > > The government would then recognize civil unions for tax purposes, power of > attorney, etc but not marriage. > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 23:48:16 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:18:16 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Issue: Norton AntiVirus Affecting my Brain In-Reply-To: References: <410-220041144223816938@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc041104154810020091@mail.gmail.com> I'm using AVG, just started, it's awesome. It picked up a file that's been lying dormant on my machine, which *did* contain a trojan, for the past year; during that year, McAffee (on autoupdate) had been scanning my machine every night and never noticed. Emlyn On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:33:04 +0000, BillK wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:38:16 -0500, natasha wrote: > > Does anyone have a contact at Symatic, or know of how to get through their > > iron wall? > > > > Give up the struggle. Delete it - they don't deserve your money. > > Install AVG Free (or pay for the Professional version) > > though you may want to wait a week or so as they are just about to > upgrade to the next version. > > Or, Install Avast! Home edition (Free) or buy the professional version. > > > Either is as good as Norton antivirus and they both provide free > database updates every day or two. > > Best wishes, BillK > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Nov 4 23:59:21 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:29:21 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04110415592412af85@mail.gmail.com> Hasn't this been predicted in sci-fi many times before? This is a mainstream backlash against the pace of development. Free society is becoming scary now, not safe like the good ole days; jobs are insecure, social attitudes and norms storm and flow, the surface layer is the same as it's been for a while (phones, cars, houses, buildings) but underneath it's unrecognisable, and the unrecognisable is ever more bubbling to the top. So, leap back flock-style to the good times of old. Of course they weren't that good, and we rejected the stuff for a reason, but it's hard to remember as the world explodes around you. Even good change is change, and mostly people really only like change when it happens to other people. The kicker though, the irony, the punchline, is that the outraged masses react against the change, and against the surface elements of the technology that underpins it, but no way no day are they going to give up the gains they've grabbed on to. What they miss is that those gains are a side effect of a dynamic system in motion. The only way to stop it is to stop the whole system; back lash must be crack down and repress, all long beards and beheadings, or it's doomed. As transhumanists, a useful job would be one of reassurance; lots of head patting and comforting... "there there, it's ok, look out the window can you see it's a beautiful day? The world your children and your grandchildren are inheriting and creating may be weird and fast, but it is really good, better than you might have dreamed." Emlyn On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 09:23:09 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 07:00 AM 11/4/2004 -0800, the Spikester wrote: > > >Isn't it shocking? Religion Incorporated seems > >to be making a raging comeback in our modern world. > > In all sorts of brands and guises. It's bitterly ironic (to me, anyway) > that avowedly hi-tech widely educated societies such as the USA and Russia > have so many citizens reaching for the god pill, while their antagonists > are swigging madly from the god bottle, all factions boiling away with > contrived and almost arbitrary iconologies of bigotry. It starts to look as > if people really *do* find secular scientific cultures too `cold' and > `impersonal' and even `inhaman' to sustain the glow of life. True, there > are parts of Europe and Australasia where Religion Incorporated has been > sidelined for a few generations, but I'll bet it comes ripping back in the > clutches. Time for humanism and transhumanism to start thinking seriously > once again (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others did nearly a century > ago, without getting anywhere) about some sort of secular equivalent of > worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive emotionally enriched > fellowship. But I don't imagine it will emerge from any bunch of INTJs like > this list... > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Nov 5 00:00:49 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:00:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <418AB603.1030204@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20041105000049.57222.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Moss wrote: > Brian Lee wrote: > > I favor someone else on this list who suggested > that the gov't get out > > of the marriage business altogether and only allow > civil unions. Then > > any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. > Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease > bigots? Yes - except for the fact of the strong (apparently much stronger than some of us realised) religious connotations surrounding the current name. We want to emphasize that the government-granted right is non-religious - so, in the same way that the government does not "baptize" or "convert" immigrants (it "naturalizes" them), nor does it "excommunicate" people (though it does "repatriate" them, and declare certain people "persona non grata"), it does not recognize "marriages" (though it does recognize "civil unions"). From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 00:26:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:26:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <418AB603.1030204@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20041105002610.1522.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Moss wrote: > > I don't understand this position at all. You'd be allowing gay > marriage, but not calling any marriage marriage, but any organisation > that wants to call a marriage marriage would be free to do so and > would also be free to discriminate against homosexuals? > > Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease bigots? Not at all. It is getting government out of marriage. Free human beings do not need governments approving of or licensing their relationships or families. If you think they do, then you are the one who is bigoted and fascist. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 01:05:30 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:05:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105002610.1522.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105010530.276.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> This is sophistry; you simply don't want gays to file joint returns. You secretly want to subsidise heterosexual marriage as I openly wish to subsidise homosexual marriage. There's more to it, but that's the long & short of it. > Not at all. It is getting government out of > marriage. Free human beings > do not need governments approving of or licensing > their relationships > or families. If you think they do, then you are the > one who is bigoted > and fascist. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Nov 5 01:08:25 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:08:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105002610.1522.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (11/4/04 16:26) Mike Lorrey wrote: >Not at all. It is getting government out of marriage. Free human beings >do not need governments approving of or licensing their relationships >or families. If you think they do, then you are the one who is bigoted >and fascist. Yes, but I don't see you clamoring to get the government out of het marriage. Sauce for the goose, etc. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 01:36:07 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:36:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105010530.276.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105013607.10753.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> You have no idea what I want if you are so blind as to not listen to a word I say, Trend. Your blindness is the exact reason why your buddy Kerry lost the election. --- Al Brooks wrote: > This is sophistry; you simply don't want gays to file > joint returns. You secretly want to subsidise > heterosexual marriage as I openly wish to subsidise > homosexual marriage. > There's more to it, but that's the long & short of it. > > > > Not at all. It is getting government out of > > marriage. Free human beings > > do not need governments approving of or licensing > > their relationships > > or families. If you think they do, then you are the > > one who is bigoted > > and fascist. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William Pitt > > (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 01:37:11 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:37:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041105013711.48968.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (11/4/04 16:26) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Not at all. It is getting government out of marriage. Free human > beings > >do not need governments approving of or licensing their > relationships > >or families. If you think they do, then you are the one who is > bigoted > >and fascist. > > > Yes, but I don't see you clamoring to get the government out of het > marriage. Sauce for the goose, etc. I certainly am clamoring for getting government out of het marriage. That you can't read plainly written english statements without overlaying your own bias is exactly the reason why Kerry lost. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Nov 5 01:44:43 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:44:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: <20041102182750.17640.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105014443.94292.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Okay...so how do you prevent managers from cashing > > out the company between reports and leaving > > shareholders with an empty bag? > > If the managers obtain their stock via employee > purchase or options > programs, they would be required to only buy or sell > stock in the month > or two AFTER the annual or bi-annual report is > released. Which requires government regulation to enforce. > Anyone who > purchases stock on the open market could buy and > sell whenever they > want. What of managers who more literally "cash out" the company by rigging their compensation, then resigning just before the report to the board is due, but never own (or don't care about) shares in the company? > I'd generally discourage this. The reporting system > is so frequently > used by corporations to collude at a distance with > their competitors to > exploit the consumer that I'd say that either all > companies in a given > industry report on the same day, or else the four > largest competitors > in a market must report 3 months apart from each > other. Requiring reports to be synchronized doesn't sound too bad. Income taxes are synchronized in the same way, so it's not like there isn't precedent for setting this kind of thing up. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 01:50:47 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:50:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <20041105000049.57222.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014601c4c2d9$df310500$a51e4842@kevin> I wouldn;t even call it a civil union. People could live together or not. It doesn;t matter what sex or haow many are involved. Marriage can continue to be a religious ceremony, but it would have no government benefit or recognition. When it comes to property, it becomes a matter of contract law. If you want someone to have a right to your property, you draw it up in a contract. If you want to will something, you make a will. Not only does it simplify things, it also opens a lot of doors. Right now, my girlfriend (happily co-habitating for four years) has no say over what happens to me when I die. She knows I plan to go to Alcor. My parents are both Catholic and would resist this. Since I am not married, my parents would be making the decisions. My only option at this moment to give my girlfriend control over this is to marry her, which is against my (non)"religion". EVen if I go to the JP to get married instead of a church, they still invoke God. Doing away with marriage...and civil unions would force everyone to make those arrangements in contracts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Tymes" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 6:00 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > --- Bryan Moss wrote: > > Brian Lee wrote: > > > I favor someone else on this list who suggested > > that the gov't get out > > > of the marriage business altogether and only allow > > civil unions. Then > > > any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. > > > Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease > > bigots? > > Yes - except for the fact of the strong (apparently > much stronger than some of us realised) religious > connotations surrounding the current name. We want to > emphasize that the government-granted right is > non-religious - so, in the same way that the > government does not "baptize" or "convert" immigrants > (it "naturalizes" them), nor does it "excommunicate" > people (though it does "repatriate" them, and declare > certain people "persona non grata"), it does not > recognize "marriages" (though it does recognize "civil > unions"). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 01:56:27 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:56:27 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <20041105010530.276.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <014e01c4c2da$aa390860$a51e4842@kevin> DId you just say that Mike Lorrey wants to subsidize "____________"? You don;t know Mike very well. Mike doesn;t much care for subsidizing anything. Mike would prefer you didn;t file tax returns at all. He doesn't want gays to benefit from the government, but that isn't singling gays out. He doesn;t want ANYONE on the dole. Gay, straight, bi, white, black, mixed, etc ad-nauseum. It never fails that when someone recomends getting rid of a benefit, all minorities think they are being singled out. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Brooks" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > This is sophistry; you simply don't want gays to file > joint returns. You secretly want to subsidise > heterosexual marriage as I openly wish to subsidise > homosexual marriage. > There's more to it, but that's the long & short of it. > > > > Not at all. It is getting government out of > > marriage. Free human beings > > do not need governments approving of or licensing > > their relationships > > or families. If you think they do, then you are the > > one who is bigoted > > and fascist. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William Pitt > > (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com Fri Nov 5 01:55:21 2004 From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 01:55:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041104224807.17010.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041104224807.17010.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418ADD89.9070901@dsl.pipex.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Still not getting it. The most common refrain that pollsters found was >that people were saying "I'm not against gays, I just don't want them >rubbing my face in it." > > It would take a pretty extravagant wedding ring to amount to "rubbing their face in it," wouldn't it? BM From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 01:58:53 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:58:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: Message-ID: <015601c4c2db$013bd020$a51e4842@kevin> Can you read? That statement doesn't single out gays. It says marriage in general. Gay or straight. Marriage is not the role of the government. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Neal" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > (11/4/04 16:26) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Not at all. It is getting government out of marriage. Free human beings > >do not need governments approving of or licensing their relationships > >or families. If you think they do, then you are the one who is bigoted > >and fascist. > > > Yes, but I don't see you clamoring to get the government out of het marriage. Sauce for the goose, etc. > > B > -- > Brent Neal > Geek of all Trades > http://brentn.freeshell.org > > "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Nov 5 02:12:07 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:12:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <014601c4c2d9$df310500$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105021207.53917.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I wouldn;t even call it a civil union. Technically, I think that Brian Lee was referring to me suggestion, which definitely was for "civil unions". Perhaps you meant to say, "I would go further than civil unions"? ;) > When it comes to property, it becomes a matter of > contract law. And a government-recognized special form of contract which can affect things like taxes. (It shouldn't, but better that we use "civil unions" than "marriage". Getting government out of social engineering is another debate entirely - no need to make those who want social engineering oppose the measure to only officially recognize civil unions, especially since some who might get all emotional about not recognizing marriage would, in a debate over civil unions, come to agree that this form of social engineering should end.) > If you want > someone to have a right to your property, you draw > it up in a contract. If > you want to will something, you make a will. Are you going to require everyone to do this? > Right now, my > girlfriend (happily > co-habitating for four years) has no say over what > happens to me when I die. > She knows I plan to go to Alcor. My parents are both > Catholic and would > resist this. Since I am not married, my parents > would be making the > decisions. My only option at this moment to give my > girlfriend control over > this is to marry her, which is against my > (non)"religion". EVen if I go to > the JP to get married instead of a church, they > still invoke God. > Doing away with marriage...and civil unions would > force everyone to make > those arrangements in contracts. Don't most cities or counties offer to issue marriage certificates to individuals who don't go through officially recognized churches? For instance, it is traditional that the captain of a ship has the power to marry, and you can probably find one willing to do so with no reference to the supernatural. Yet any captains who do this (save for cruise ship captains) are unlikely to file paperwork with authorities already familiar with the ones performing the ceremony. But a couple who planned to do this could go to city hall and ask for the necessary documents, to be filed upon return. There are other examples, but this may be the best if the government officials you deal with demand some sort of traditional authority, since the existance of ship captains is far older than Christianity. Then again, almost any judge could also claim the power to marry - again, without need of reference to the supernatural - based on similarly ancient tradition. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 02:25:37 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:25:37 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage (WAS: No Joy in Mudville) References: <418AB603.1030204@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <015e01c4c2de$bd14c600$a51e4842@kevin> I keep seeing these statements going back and forth. I think something is missing here. I would like to start this over. Mike Lorrey and I have both proposed that rather than allowing gay marriage, the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Some who have responded have acted as if Mike and I are bigots, homophobes, etc. I can;t speak for Mike, but I assure you I am not. This idea makes sense. To understand, we need to define the function of marriage as it is and how it applies to the idea of getting gov't out of marriage. Marriage, as I understand it, serves three purposes in our society. 1.) A contract allowing certain rights to property and access to certain gov't benefits 2.) A religious ceremony and a faith based somethingorother 3.) A social contract that binds two people together with promises of monogamy As far as I am concerned, marriage should be an entirely religious ceremony. It should have nothing to do with government. It should not be regulated by the state. If a certain church wants to keep a certain type of people out of their group, then so be it. Groups with like beliefs should be allowed to congregate with like minded people. I don't think I would be accepted too well with a bunch of bikers...and that is fine. I wouldn;t want to be with a bunch of bikers who didn;t want me to be around! Gays in church are the same way. People who are anti-gay should have just as much a right to congregate as the KKK, atheists, pagans, or a bunch of anti-Bush supporters. Boy Scouts should be for boys, girl scouts for girls. Why would a girls want to be a boy scout anyways? The solution is not to force a group to accept people who don;t fit the group. The solution is to form more groups. I don;t see the members here complaining that they don;t get a Catholic newsletter! So if the issue is whether or not gays are allowed church marriages, that is up to the church. And I am sure that there are Christian denominations that recognize gay marriages. I know of such a church right here in Evansville, IN. But I don;t think that is a problem on this list. The people here seem to think about matters in more of a logical sense rather than caring what the church thinks. I am sure the church would condemn my decisions of cryo-preservation, atheism, cloning, etc just as much as they condemn gays. Homosexuality is only one sin. I commit many! lol So I can only assume the matter has to do with either contract law, or benefits. As a matter of contract, eliminating marriage puts everyone on an equal footing. my girlfried and I can have a contract, and so can two roommates in college that buy a frat house together. All matters of contract, property, and those evil government benefits that keep people as slaves to the state should stand on their own. They should not have anything to do with race, religion. color, creed, sex, sexual orientation, or what kind of ice cream a person likes. I am not completely sure what Mike thinks here, but I would like his opinion. I don;t even care for the civil union idea. It is just another name for marriage. I want the state out of the relationship regulation business altogether. People can make contracts with one another as they wish. We would need a lot more attorneys, but they should get less expensive too. :-) Finally, regarding benefits....We are talking about benefits that both Mike and I think should not be there to begin with. It is silly to imply that Mike is singling out gays when getting rid of marriage. That is paranoia. A lot of people would lose government benefits by getting rid of marriage. But the reduction in tax expenditures would be offset by a reduction in taxes. Why people think it is OK for the government to take our money and give it back to those who "earn" it by following certain behaviors is beyond me. Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Moss" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > Brian Lee wrote: > > > I favor someone else on this list who suggested that the gov't get out > > of the marriage business altogether and only allow civil unions. Then > > any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. > > > I don't understand this position at all. You'd be allowing gay > marriage, but not calling any marriage marriage, but any organisation > that wants to call a marriage marriage would be free to do so and would > also be free to discriminate against homosexuals? > > Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease bigots? > > BM > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 02:30:22 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:30:22 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com><005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY><6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <710b78fc04110415592412af85@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <016601c4c2df$66c664b0$a51e4842@kevin> > As transhumanists, a useful job would be one of reassurance; lots of > head patting and comforting... "there there, it's ok, look out the > window can you see it's a beautiful day? The world your children and > your grandchildren are inheriting and creating may be weird and fast, > but it is really good, better than you might have dreamed." > This is a really good point. I try to do this at times, but more often than not, I get going about how great the future is going to be and end up scaring the hell out of people. Often I am reminded that these are "obvious" hints that Armageddon is upon us (again). I really should spend a bit more time head-patting. Maybe if we all do a little of this, people will relax a bit. :-) From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 02:30:58 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:30:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105013607.10753.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105023058.53971.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, concerning this issue I am as blind as Helen Keller, thoroughly biased in favor of gay marriage; I didn't hold this position previous to the last few years but gays have demonstrated they are no longer generally interested in affirmative action or court clogging. You're the guy who likes the status quo, I want hetero marriage to go south, and Up with other forms of marriage. If you want government out of marriage then let's end all state benefits for heteros, let's get government out of hetero-sponsorship. Mike, this is America, you've got to pull every string you can. --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > You have no idea what I want if you are so blind as > to not listen to a > word I say, Trend. Your blindness is the exact > reason why your buddy > Kerry lost the election. > > --- Al Brooks wrote: > > > This is sophistry; you simply don't want gays to > file > > joint returns. You secretly want to subsidise > > heterosexual marriage as I openly wish to > subsidise > > homosexual marriage. > > There's more to it, but that's the long & short of > it. > > > > > > > Not at all. It is getting government out of > > > marriage. Free human beings > > > do not need governments approving of or > licensing > > > their relationships > > > or families. If you think they do, then you are > the > > > one who is bigoted > > > and fascist. > > > > > > ===== > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of > NH > > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > > human freedom. > > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed > of > > > slaves." > > > -William > Pitt > > > (1759-1806) > > > Blog: > > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From rhanson at gmu.edu Fri Nov 5 02:34:31 2004 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:34:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enhancing Our Truth Orientation Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20041104211509.02f21070@mail.gmu.edu> A draft of this new paper is available. Comments welcome. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://hanson.gmu.edu/moretrue.pdf To appear in How Can Human Nature be Ethically Improved?, ed. Julian Savulescu, Oxford University Press, 2005. Enhancing Our Truth Orientation by Robin Hanson, November 2004 Humans lie to others and to themselves, and often choose beliefs for reasons other than how closely those beliefs approximate truth. This epistemic vice may well be reduced in the future. Increased documentation and surveillance should make it harder to lie and self-deceive about the patterns of our lives. Speculative markets can create a relatively unbiased consensus on most debated topics in science, business, and policy. Eventually, brain modifications may even make minds more transparent, so that lies and self-deception become harder to hide. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 02:42:16 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:42:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage In-Reply-To: <015e01c4c2de$bd14c600$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105024216.1054.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> Right-- as far as you are concerned. For me there's no reason to think those who say they want government out of marriage actually do, so I reject religious ceremony contract marriage. I want parity for any alternatives to hetero marriage based on what the benefits are for heteros at the time. If on January 1st 2015 straights have x, then I want gays and polys to be granted x as well. > As far as I am concerned, marriage should be an > entirely religious ceremony. > It should have nothing to do with government. It > should not be regulated by > the state. If a certain church wants to keep a > certain type of people out of > their group, then so be it. Groups with like beliefs > should be allowed to > congregate with like minded people. I don't think I > would be accepted too > well with a bunch of bikers...and that is fine. I > wouldn;t want to be with a > bunch of bikers who didn;t want me to be around! > > Gays in church are the same way. People who are > anti-gay should have just as > much a right to congregate as the KKK, atheists, > pagans, or a bunch of > anti-Bush supporters. Boy Scouts should be for boys, > girl scouts for girls. > Why would a girls want to be a boy scout anyways? > > The solution is not to force a group to accept > people who don;t fit the > group. The solution is to form more groups. I don;t > see the members here > complaining that they don;t get a Catholic > newsletter! > > So if the issue is whether or not gays are allowed > church marriages, that is > up to the church. And I am sure that there are > Christian denominations that > recognize gay marriages. I know of such a church > right here in Evansville, > IN. > > But I don;t think that is a problem on this list. > The people here seem to > think about matters in more of a logical sense > rather than caring what the > church thinks. I am sure the church would condemn my > decisions of > cryo-preservation, atheism, cloning, etc just as > much as they condemn gays. > Homosexuality is only one sin. I commit many! lol > > So I can only assume the matter has to do with > either contract law, or > benefits. > > As a matter of contract, eliminating marriage puts > everyone on an equal > footing. my girlfried and I can have a contract, and > so can two roommates in > college that buy a frat house together. > All matters of contract, property, and those evil > government benefits that > keep people as slaves to the state should stand on > their own. They should > not have anything to do with race, religion. color, > creed, sex, sexual > orientation, or what kind of ice cream a person > likes. > > I am not completely sure what Mike thinks here, but > I would like his > opinion. I don;t even care for the civil union idea. > It is just another name > for marriage. I want the state out of the > relationship regulation business > altogether. People can make contracts with one > another as they wish. We > would need a lot more attorneys, but they should get > less expensive too. :-) > > Finally, regarding benefits....We are talking about > benefits that both Mike > and I think should not be there to begin with. It is > silly to imply that > Mike is singling out gays when getting rid of > marriage. That is paranoia. A > lot of people would lose government benefits by > getting rid of marriage. But > the reduction in tax expenditures would be offset by > a reduction in taxes. > Why people think it is OK for the government to take > our money and give it > back to those who "earn" it by following certain > behaviors is beyond me. > > Kevin Freels > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bryan Moss" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:06 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > > > Brian Lee wrote: > > > > > I favor someone else on this list who suggested > that the gov't get out > > > of the marriage business altogether and only > allow civil unions. Then > > > any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. > > > > > > I don't understand this position at all. You'd be > allowing gay > > marriage, but not calling any marriage marriage, > but any organisation > > that wants to call a marriage marriage would be > free to do so and would > > also be free to discriminate against homosexuals? > > > > Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease > bigots? > > > > BM > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 02:52:05 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:52:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <014e01c4c2da$aa390860$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105025205.16596.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> I only know what Mike says, not what he thinks. Mike has family and he wants to protect his family from alternatives to family as we know it. I want to help try to 'diversify' the family, which is a PC way of saying erode the conventional nuclear family. Anything goes, all is fair in love & 'marriage'. I know what Mike is saying but do not agree with him, we're communicating at cross purposes. > DId you just say that Mike Lorrey wants to subsidize > "____________"? > You don;t know Mike very well. Mike doesn;t much > care for subsidizing > anything. Mike would prefer you didn;t file tax > returns at all. > > He doesn't want gays to benefit from the government, > but that isn't singling > gays out. He doesn;t want ANYONE on the dole. Gay, > straight, bi, white, > black, mixed, etc ad-nauseum. It never fails that > when someone recomends > getting rid of a benefit, all minorities think they > are being singled out. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 7:05 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > > > This is sophistry; you simply don't want gays to > file > > joint returns. You secretly want to subsidise > > heterosexual marriage as I openly wish to > subsidise > > homosexual marriage. > > There's more to it, but that's the long & short of > it. > > > > > > > Not at all. It is getting government out of > > > marriage. Free human beings > > > do not need governments approving of or > licensing > > > their relationships > > > or families. If you think they do, then you are > the > > > one who is bigoted > > > and fascist. > > > > > > ===== > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of > NH > > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > > human freedom. > > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed > of > > > slaves." > > > -William > Pitt > > > (1759-1806) > > > Blog: > > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 03:02:17 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:02:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041104224807.17010.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105030217.24154.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> This kills me- peace & quiet! Wrong century, Mike, wrong century. Invent a time machine to go back to 1890. You could buy a cabin, shoot your grub. I like you, Mike, you are entertaining, ought have your own radio show. > equal right to be an introvert in peace and quiet. > The extrovert may > feel that their rights are being restrained when > they are restrained > from rubbing introverts faces in their extroversion, > but too friggin > bad, there are limits. > > > > > I favor someone else on this list who suggested > that the gov't get > > out of the marriage business altogether and only > allow civil unions. > > Then any marriage is purely non-legal and > ceremonial. > > Thank you. > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 03:04:13 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:34:13 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <290150-220041144181514880@M2W099.mail2web.com> References: <290150-220041144181514880@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc041104190414afda8c@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 13:15:14 -0500, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi Patrick, > > I am a non-party voter, and at the moment, I do not have much to say on > this. But to answer your questino, I suppose one way of looking at it is > that President Bush would be more aggressive toward protecting the U.S. and > its citizens against terrorism. Building bigger walls around nations is just never going to be extropic. Also, ponder why the walls are necessary in the first place. Realpolitik has long term consequences demonstrated amply by the situation the US finds itself in right now. Some walls are undoubtedly necessary to keep the barbarians out. You guys could really do with a government that would also consider talking to the barbarians and finding out what they want; quite possibly, sacking your citadel is only a means to an end. Is it possible that this end might be a lot easier to live with than big walls? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 03:06:01 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 19:06:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Marriage (was: No Joy in Mudville) In-Reply-To: <20041105023058.53971.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041105013607.10753.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> <20041105023058.53971.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041104185248.029380f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I think a problem here is what exactly is a "marriage'. My men's group here in Santa Cruz, a rather liberal place, went kinda nuts on this issue. There are several notions using the same terminology, here is an incomplete list: union of man and woman union of any legal adults term for defining property rights, wills, etc union for creating and nurture of children I don't see any solutions any time soon. The eskimo supposedly has 150 words for snow, we have maybe 7. English is a language very poor in words for kinds, objects, types of interpersonal unions. I personally avoid the issue by using the term "partner", in our case a person, female, with commitment equivalent to 'marriage' but not closed; and after 3 'marriages' there is an aversion to something so easily entered, and so difficult to end. We would legally marry if and only if there is some really significant advantage to it. (Which might happen, but it is using a legal convention to our advantage.) ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From nsjacobus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 03:07:36 2004 From: nsjacobus at yahoo.com (nsjacobus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:07:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: <20041105025205.16596.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041105025205.16596.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perhaps in order to refocus this discussion in to a possibly more positive direction, what about considering the following question: If we (whoever) were to build a society from the bottom up (on the moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the ocean, etc), ie: from scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc should such a society have (if any) for "Marriage"? From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 5 03:14:15 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 21:14:15 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <710b78fc041104190414afda8c@mail.gmail.com> References: <290150-220041144181514880@M2W099.mail2web.com> <710b78fc041104190414afda8c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104211236.01dadf88@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:34 PM 11/5/2004 +1030, Emlyn wrote: >You >guys could really do with a government that would also consider >talking to the barbarians and finding out what they want; quite >possibly, sacking your citadel is only a means to an end. No, no, Emlyn, don't you understand? They hate us because we're *good*. The President said so. Damien Broderick From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 03:25:29 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:25:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041105032529.80495.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Any sort of marriage anyone wants or doesn't want. Right now there's pressure for people to get married-- and believe it or nor I accept this opposition. But there are those of us who will pull the tug o' war rope from the other direction. You know what this country is about, how Americans change things-- with utmost fuss & bother. There was a four year war merely to abolish slavery. To grant women the vote took how many decades? > If we (whoever) were to build a society from the > bottom up (on the > moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the > ocean, etc), ie: from > scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc should > such a society have > (if any) for "Marriage"? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 03:28:37 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:28:37 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... References: <20041105025205.16596.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01d401c4c2e7$89cb1c00$a51e4842@kevin> None. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:07 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... > Perhaps in order to refocus this discussion in to a possibly more > positive direction, what about considering the following question: > > If we (whoever) were to build a society from the bottom up (on the > moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the ocean, etc), ie: from > scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc should such a society have > (if any) for "Marriage"? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 03:33:06 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:33:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <016601c4c2df$66c664b0$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105033306.35068.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> We can't be smarmy about it all the time, can we? Then we become suck-ups and schmoozers. > > As transhumanists, a useful job would be one of > reassurance; lots of > > head patting and comforting... "there there, it's > ok, look out the > > window can you see it's a beautiful day? The world > your children and > > your grandchildren are inheriting and creating may > be weird and fast, > > but it is really good, better than you might have > dreamed." > > > > > This is a really good point. I try to do this at > times, but more often than > not, I get going about how great the future is going > to be and end up > scaring the hell out of people. Often I am reminded > that these are "obvious" > hints that Armageddon is upon us (again). > I really should spend a bit more time head-patting. > Maybe if we all do a > little of this, people will relax a bit. :-) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From nsjacobus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 03:44:04 2004 From: nsjacobus at yahoo.com (nsjacobus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:44:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: <20041105032529.80495.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041105032529.80495.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: True enough. However, still, this makes me think that since what we are really talking about is something far more general than the notion of marriage, shouldn't we, as Extropians, really be trying to abolish the specific-notion of "marriage" altogether ? I mean, I can understand that gays want simply to have the same rights as heteros (and they should), but ultimately if the "traditional" notion of marriage is backwards (in a certain Extropian sense), shouldn't we be trying to go way further here? Death To Marriage! On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Al Brooks wrote: Any sort of marriage anyone wants or doesn't want. Right now there's pressure for people to get married-- and believe it or nor I accept this opposition. But there are those of us who will pull the tug o' war rope from the other direction. You know what this country is about, how Americans change things-- with utmost fuss & bother. There was a four year war merely to abolish slavery. To grant women the vote took how many decades? > If we (whoever) were to build a society from the > bottom up (on the > moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the > ocean, etc), ie: from > scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc should > such a society have > (if any) for "Marriage"? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Cheers, Nigel. --- "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " -Buckaroo Banzai -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2074 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nsjacobus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 03:50:03 2004 From: nsjacobus at yahoo.com (nsjacobus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:50:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] traditional baloney In-Reply-To: <20041105033306.35068.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041105033306.35068.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If I hear another schmo talk about the "traditional" values of this great Country of ours, I'll hemorrhage grey-matter...Guess I shouldn't be watching CNN (but I can't help it!) Traditional values dictates that blacks should be in bondage and women should be barefoot and pregnant and children should be working in mines. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 03:56:56 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:26:56 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105033306.35068.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <016601c4c2df$66c664b0$a51e4842@kevin> <20041105033306.35068.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04110419566b0d9483@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:33:06 -0800 (PST), Al Brooks wrote: > We can't be smarmy about it all the time, can we? Then > we become suck-ups and schmoozers. > Where's smarminess come in? Things really are going well. The world appears to be becoming gradually more free, temporary movements in the opposite direction by major powers notwithstanding. We seem to be becoming wealthier, we have a lot more options with regard to technology, health, lifestyle. I get the general impression that across the world, the movement is toward democracy and away from totalitarianism. Sure there is heaps to do, and the more we chip in and help the better. Still, we musn't let the fear of change, and the disimilarity of the present to a (partially fictitious) past we are more familiar with hide the fact that things are better than ever. Transhumanists as a whole have a lot to be optimistic about (excepting maybe the overtly socialist faction). I think one of the biggest issues we have in the west at present is that we (generally) don't realise just how good we have it. People are only seeing the bad stuff. We need to remind everyone (and ourselves) that personal freedom and self direction are going gangbusters. Don't sell it short! Happier people would make decisions we could all be proud of, I think, rather than thinking and acting meanly as I see too many people do, especially in areas like foreign policy. It *should* be a no brainer, because there's a lot to be happy about. > > > As transhumanists, a useful job would be one of > > reassurance; lots of > > > head patting and comforting... "there there, it's > > ok, look out the > > > window can you see it's a beautiful day? The world > > your children and > > > your grandchildren are inheriting and creating may > > be weird and fast, > > > but it is really good, better than you might have > > dreamed." > > > > > > > > > This is a really good point. I try to do this at > > times, but more often than > > not, I get going about how great the future is going > > to be and end up > > scaring the hell out of people. Often I am reminded > > that these are "obvious" > > hints that Armageddon is upon us (again). > > I really should spend a bit more time head-patting. > > Maybe if we all do a > > little of this, people will relax a bit. :-) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 03:59:25 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:59:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041105035925.83683.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Well, you got right to it. look, I'll be 50 in another year or so, do not want to be an old maid, so what is so terrible about marrying a 15 year old before my body is unmarketable? We put on this brave front like we're going to live indefinitely but anybody could die in an accident, the future is great but there's today too. If I have a good time, make it to 65 then get suspended, that's good enough. If you make it to 65 or 70 it can be called a good life. Aren't you thankful for small favors? --- nsjacobus at yahoo.com wrote: > True enough. However, still, this makes me think > that since what we are > really talking about is something far more general > than the notion of > marriage, shouldn't we, as Extropians, really be > trying to abolish the > specific-notion of "marriage" altogether ? > > I mean, I can understand that gays want simply to > have the same rights > as heteros (and they should), but ultimately if the > "traditional" > notion of marriage is backwards (in a certain > Extropian sense), > shouldn't we be trying to go way further here? > > Death To Marriage! > > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Al Brooks wrote: > > Any sort of marriage anyone wants or doesn't want. > Right now there's pressure for people to get > married-- and believe it or nor I accept this > opposition. But there are those of us who will pull > the tug o' war rope from the other direction. You > know > what this country is about, how Americans change > things-- with utmost fuss & bother. There was a four > year war merely to abolish slavery. To grant women > the > vote took how many decades? > > > > If we (whoever) were to build a society from the > > bottom up (on the > > moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the > > ocean, etc), ie: from > > scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc > should > > such a society have > > (if any) for "Marriage"? > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > Cheers, > Nigel. > --- > "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be > mean because, > remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " > > -Buckaroo Banzai > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 04:07:45 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:07:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: References: <20041105031605.45039.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <020401c4c2ed$01c175b0$a51e4842@kevin> Well as I said, I can;t speak for Mike. I have custody of two children from a previous marriage and have a girlfriend that I have lived with for several years. They are both girls and they are being brought up in the most untraditional way. They are taught to respect everyone, but to question everything. They are taught that the very worst thing a person could be is a non-thinking hater and a hypocrite. I don't personally see how one's sexual orientation has any bearing on family except for in a few cases. One such case is mine. I have two girls and I have custody. I would have a very tough time teaching them all that girl stuff myself. A male mate wouldn;t be much of a help either. BUT, all that means is that I would have to find a way to make sure a woman was in their lives. That woman could be my mother, sister, a friend, or someone I hired to be their "woman tutor". I will say that I think it is important that children be brought up to know how to function in a hetero society. Hetero must be the norm, or the population would crash and our species would become extinct. Since the majority then must be hetero, they need to learn to live in a hetero society. They need to understand gender roles. They do not, however, need to be brainwashed into those roles. In fact, I think their awareness of these roles will make them always conscious of what they are doing rather than reacting with the masses. They need to understand all of the options available to them, then be treated with respect regardless of what they choose.... So what of the traditional family? There is nothing wrong with it. It is a good thing. It only becomes a problem when people become narrow minded and think that their way is right. It becomes a problem when parents teach their children to hate. It is not a bad thing and Mike is right to protect it. But I don;t see how he could perceive gay marriage as a threat to that. It has no bearing on his family. People who are closed minded come from all different ways of life. There are close minded gays who want to rub homosexuality in people's faces. There are Christians who do the same with their religion. There are blacks who rub their blackness in people's faces. I could go on and on. None of these people are being productive. I think Mike has a difefrent agenda. He wants to protect your rights..but not at the expense of everyone elses. To him, and to me, an American isn;t a Gay American, or African American, or Islamic American. Everyone is just a plain old boring American...and if you are on the public dole, he is after you. In short, Mike is an equal-opportunity hater. Gay families are not a threat to hetero families. It is either the excuse that anti-gay people use to justify their behavior, or ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Brooks" To: "Kevin Freels" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:16 PM > Okay, nevertheless we're not objective in these > matters, perhaps it's me projecting on you, yet as far > as I know from everything I've observed, most everyone > is grinding an axe concerning the family institution: > "my family right or wrong". > Now of course the things have to be done slowly, if > straights dominate until, say, the 2070s or '80s > that's fine w/ me, but to change you've got to have > those who push to get the ball rolling. If we listened > to Mike heteros would rule until after 2100. > > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > > Not anarchists. Government has many necessary > > functions. Handing out other > > people's money isn;t one of them. It doesn;t matter > > if you give it to a str8 > > guy or a gay woman; it is still wrong. > > > > You said, "For me there's no reason to think those > > who say they want > > government out of marriage actually do," > > Don;t be so paranoid. There are a lot of bad people > > out there, but that is > > no way to live. We're not all bad. Any time you push > > against the norm, you > > get a lot of resistance. Most of us here push those > > envelopes regularly. > > Being gay is no different. I didn;t choose to be an > > atheist....God made me > > that way. :-) > > > > The only reason gays have gotten so much resistance > > is because they are > > normalizing homosexuality. Us cryo, AI, MNT, > > transhumanism people simply > > haven;t become a large enough target yet. Give it > > time. Eventually there > > will be a group out there called "Gays Against > > Artificial Intelligrnce" and > > they will be working right alongside the church. > > > > Parity is a worthy goal. Personally I would be happy > > if all people were > > treated equally by the state. That is what I am > > after. I want to see the > > government put back to something that makes sense > > and is consistent. > > > > Cheers! > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Al Brooks" > > To: "Kevin Freels" ; "ExI > > chat list" > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:42 PM > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage > > > > > > > Right-- as far as you are concerned. For me > > there's no > > > reason to think those who say they want government > > out > > > of marriage actually do, so I reject religious > > > ceremony contract marriage. > > > I want parity for any alternatives to hetero > > marriage > > > based on what the benefits are for heteros at the > > > time. If on January 1st 2015 straights have x, > > then I > > > want gays and polys to be granted x as well. > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned, marriage should be an > > > > entirely religious ceremony. > > > > It should have nothing to do with government. It > > > > should not be regulated by > > > > the state. If a certain church wants to keep a > > > > certain type of people out of > > > > their group, then so be it. Groups with like > > beliefs > > > > should be allowed to > > > > congregate with like minded people. I don't > > think I > > > > would be accepted too > > > > well with a bunch of bikers...and that is fine. > > I > > > > wouldn;t want to be with a > > > > bunch of bikers who didn;t want me to be around! > > > > > > > > Gays in church are the same way. People who are > > > > anti-gay should have just as > > > > much a right to congregate as the KKK, atheists, > > > > pagans, or a bunch of > > > > anti-Bush supporters. Boy Scouts should be for > > boys, > > > > girl scouts for girls. > > > > Why would a girls want to be a boy scout > > anyways? > > > > > > > > The solution is not to force a group to accept > > > > people who don;t fit the > > > > group. The solution is to form more groups. I > > don;t > > > > see the members here > > > > complaining that they don;t get a Catholic > > > > newsletter! > > > > > > > > So if the issue is whether or not gays are > > allowed > > > > church marriages, that is > > > > up to the church. And I am sure that there are > > > > Christian denominations that > > > > recognize gay marriages. I know of such a church > > > > right here in Evansville, > > > > IN. > > > > > > > > But I don;t think that is a problem on this > > list. > > > > The people here seem to > > > > think about matters in more of a logical sense > > > > rather than caring what the > > > > church thinks. I am sure the church would > > condemn my > > > > decisions of > > > > cryo-preservation, atheism, cloning, etc just > > as > > > > much as they condemn gays. > > > > Homosexuality is only one sin. I commit many! > > lol > > > > > > > > So I can only assume the matter has to do with > > > > either contract law, or > > > > benefits. > > > > > > > > As a matter of contract, eliminating marriage > > puts > > > > everyone on an equal > > > > footing. my girlfried and I can have a contract, > > and > > > > so can two roommates in > > > > college that buy a frat house together. > > > > All matters of contract, property, and those > > evil > > > > government benefits that > > > > keep people as slaves to the state should stand > > on > > > > their own. They should > > > > not have anything to do with race, religion. > > color, > > > > creed, sex, sexual > > > > orientation, or what kind of ice cream a person > > > > likes. > > > > > > > > I am not completely sure what Mike thinks here, > > but > > > > I would like his > > > > opinion. I don;t even care for the civil union > > idea. > > > > It is just another name > > > > for marriage. I want the state out of the > > > > relationship regulation business > > > > altogether. People can make contracts with one > > > > another as they wish. We > > > > would need a lot more attorneys, but they should > > get > > > > less expensive too. :-) > > > > > > > > Finally, regarding benefits....We are talking > > about > > > > benefits that both Mike > > > > and I think should not be there to begin with. > > It is > > > > silly to imply that > > > > Mike is singling out gays when getting rid of > > > > marriage. That is paranoia. A > > > > lot of people would lose government benefits by > > > > getting rid of marriage. But > > > > the reduction in tax expenditures would be > > offset by > > > > a reduction in taxes. > > > > Why people think it is OK for the government to > > take > > > > our money and give it > > > > back to those who "earn" it by following certain > > > > behaviors is beyond me. > > > > > > > > Kevin Freels > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Bryan Moss" > > > > To: "ExI chat list" > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 5:06 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian Lee wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I favor someone else on this list who > > suggested > > > > that the gov't get out > > > > > > of the marriage business altogether and only > > > > allow civil unions. Then > > > > > > any marriage is purely non-legal and > > ceremonial. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand this position at all. > > You'd be > > > === message truncated === > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 04:12:53 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:12:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] traditional baloney References: <20041105033306.35068.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <021e01c4c2ed$b8e464f0$a51e4842@kevin> Have faith. A traditional person like you should treat this a bit more traditionally. With God behind us, we will bring everyone back into the nuclear family and do away with the sinners. This great country of ours is ready to enter a period of healing and return to the roots of our heritage..... OK. I am just joking. Please don't let your brain explode like that scene on Scanners. I need you to help me get rid of marriage! ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:50 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] traditional baloney > If I hear another schmo talk about the "traditional" values of this > great Country of ours, I'll hemorrhage grey-matter...Guess I shouldn't > be watching CNN (but I can't help it!) > > Traditional values dictates that blacks should be in bondage and women > should be barefoot and pregnant and children should be working in > mines. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 04:12:42 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:12:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04110419566b0d9483@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041105041242.63263.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Sure & I'm thankful just for agricultural, whether it's high tech or organic hippie farms. It's not the 'West' that is getting worrisome it's West and Central Asia. Of course it probably wont go down this line too far yet there's fair odds of a general war where many get killed or sick from the... whatever. My Dad didn't think he'd have to go off to WWII but it came closer & closer inching up until he could see it coming. > I think one of > the biggest > issues we have in the west at present is that we > (generally) don't > realise just how good we have it. People are only > seeing the bad > stuff. We need to remind everyone (and ourselves) > that personal > freedom and self direction are going gangbusters. > Don't sell it short! > > Happier people would make decisions we could all be > proud of, I think, > rather than thinking and acting meanly as I see too > many people do, > especially in areas like foreign policy. It *should* > be a no brainer, > because there's a lot to be happy about. > > > > > As transhumanists, a useful job would be one > of > > > reassurance; lots of > > > > head patting and comforting... "there there, > it's > > > ok, look out the > > > > window can you see it's a beautiful day? The > world > > > your children and > > > > your grandchildren are inheriting and creating > may > > > be weird and fast, > > > > but it is really good, better than you might > have > > > dreamed." > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a really good point. I try to do this at > > > times, but more often than > > > not, I get going about how great the future is > going > > > to be and end up > > > scaring the hell out of people. Often I am > reminded > > > that these are "obvious" > > > hints that Armageddon is upon us (again). > > > I really should spend a bit more time > head-patting. > > > Maybe if we all do a > > > little of this, people will relax a bit. :-) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software > * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From sahynepu at concentric.net Fri Nov 5 03:54:35 2004 From: sahynepu at concentric.net (Sahyinepu) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:54:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <418AB603.1030204@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> In my faith we have several gay people, and their grip on the issue, and why they want some sort of legal recognition, etc, is for the same legal rights straights have..like say for example, if one person gets really ill and has to go to the hospital, the other person may not be able to see them. Also, if someone dies, the states tend to seek out family member of the deceased, where as the person who the loved and whom they shared their life with is ignored. They spend several thousand dollars more than any straight couple would with legal nonsense just trying to overcome some of these issues. People should rely on the state for legal recognition only, as far as how the law recognizes them with regards to wills, etc, same as current marriages give protection. As for the religious aspect of marriage, that is up to the person religious affiliation. My faith has married several members who are gay, that is our choice...if Baptists don't want to do it, that is their choice...no one is being forced to marry anyone...but the state should give the same legal protection and recognition to gays as it gives to non-gays. The Ancient Egyptians(and modern followers of the faith like myself) viewed marriage as a legal contract only...America should do the same. Sah On Thursday, November 4, 2004, at 05:06 PM, Bryan Moss wrote: > Brian Lee wrote: > >> I favor someone else on this list who suggested that the gov't get >> out of the marriage business altogether and only allow civil unions. >> Then any marriage is purely non-legal and ceremonial. > > > I don't understand this position at all. You'd be allowing gay > marriage, but not calling any marriage marriage, but any organisation > that wants to call a marriage marriage would be free to do so and > would also be free to discriminate against homosexuals? > > Doesn't it just amount to a name change to appease bigots? > > BM > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From nsjacobus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 04:32:45 2004 From: nsjacobus at yahoo.com (nsjacobus at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:32:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: <20041105035925.83683.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041105035925.83683.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What we've (speaking for myself) come to realize is that the old forms of relationships simply don't work as well as was once thought. Marriage never used to be about love...it was an economic idea. Purely a tribal notion based on procreation, quelling inter-tribe violence, etc. Now we expect marriage to be the vehicle for interpersonal and individual happiness. But there's notion inherent to the notion of marriage that says it will provide these things. It was never designed to. So, we're in a period of flux. How do we remake inter-personal relationships so as to maximize our ability to lead a good life (by whatever measure). The answer clearly seems to be that what works for some people doesn't work for everyone. However, the prevalent social mores in this country preclude us from experimenting in any meaningful way in trying to create new kinds of interpersonal bonds. Given the option and the will, there are a lot of possibilities that one could try. Maybe some people would opt for chemical/hormonal de-sexing. Maybe sex is too much of a hindrance in finding the kind of happiness I'm talking about. I don't know. The point is, if we don't develop an environment that encourages that kind of experimentation and exploration then we will be selling ourselves short. -NJ On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Al Brooks wrote: Well, you got right to it. look, I'll be 50 in another year or so, do not want to be an old maid, so what is so terrible about marrying a 15 year old before my body is unmarketable? We put on this brave front like we're going to live indefinitely but anybody could die in an accident, the future is great but there's today too. If I have a good time, make it to 65 then get suspended, that's good enough. If you make it to 65 or 70 it can be called a good life. Aren't you thankful for small favors? --- nsjacobus at yahoo.com wrote: > True enough. However, still, this makes me think > that since what we are > really talking about is something far more general > than the notion of > marriage, shouldn't we, as Extropians, really be > trying to abolish the > specific-notion of "marriage" altogether ? > > I mean, I can understand that gays want simply to > have the same rights > as heteros (and they should), but ultimately if the > "traditional" > notion of marriage is backwards (in a certain > Extropian sense), > shouldn't we be trying to go way further here? > > Death To Marriage! > > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Al Brooks wrote: > > Any sort of marriage anyone wants or doesn't want. > Right now there's pressure for people to get > married-- and believe it or nor I accept this > opposition. But there are those of us who will pull > the tug o' war rope from the other direction. You > know > what this country is about, how Americans change > things-- with utmost fuss & bother. There was a four > year war merely to abolish slavery. To grant women > the > vote took how many decades? > > >> If we (whoever) were to build a society from the >> bottom up (on the >> moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the >> ocean, etc), ie: from >> scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc > should >> such a society have >> (if any) for "Marriage"? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > ===== > Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > Cheers, > Nigel. > --- > "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be > mean because, > remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " > > -Buckaroo Banzai > >> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Cheers, Nigel. --- "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " -Buckaroo Banzai -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4763 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 04:39:05 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:39:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Prop 71: The New Gold Rush In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204110403576917e016@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5204110403576917e016@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a321705041104203914873a77@mail.gmail.com> Some choose to deride my beloved State of Taxifornia, but after this election I love my country a little bit less and my state a little bit more. I wonder if it's too late for California to get on the secession bandwagon? Those southern rebels may have been on to something after all. Heck, maybe we could persuade New York to join in with us for a bi-coastal confederacy. That way we'd have the buggers surrounded! The coasts shall rise again!!! Zero On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:57:18 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Wired: Scientists around the country who study embryonic stem cells > may be mourning four more years of President Bush's restrictive > funding policy, but California scientists are throwing a party, and > top researchers in less-funded states are hoping for invitations. > In the Golden State, stem cell researchers will see a windfall of $3 > billion over the next 10 years, averaging about $300 million a year, > thanks to the passage of Proposition 71, the California Stem Cell > Research and Cures Initiative. It shouldn't be difficult to entice the > best minds in the country to move to a place where their work is fully > supported by a state known for its mild climate. > California has found a way to supplant federal money with its stem > cell initiative, and it's the envy of the rest of the country's stem > cell researchers. > http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,65588,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 04:44:21 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:44:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <41DB29A4-2E80-11D9-8560-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20041105044421.72383.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we have it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the culture at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: Jesus, booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir practice. 23 skidoo. But they look at me and are sickened too; life extension, music, trendology- all that pointyheaded intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is superior, they think there's is. It's moving so slow but the years are going so fast. > What about the Midwest and the South? It would seem > to me that the > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that the > insane Christian > meme that we have been politely ignoring for years > has come home to > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not able > to control the > strings of government too tightly, but there are now > enough > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of the > only remaining > superpower. > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > I live in a small East German town. Just down the > street I have a bunch > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up a > cafe to lure and > convert secular communists. These guys are really > well organized and > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into Mormons > from Utah on the > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > trying to spread the > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > democracy when they are > not willing to actively engage those who disagree > with them? Reading > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not going to > change anyone's > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We need > to become much more > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > Midwest! > > best, patrick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 04:55:35 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041105045535.43048.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> More good points here esp. regarding chemical, hormonal desexing. That's an important option. Anyhow, I just want to sow a few more wild oats before the box of oats goes six feet under, "get it while you can". pangs & longing and love is like high school. --- nsjacobus at yahoo.com wrote: > What we've (speaking for myself) come to realize is > that the old forms > of relationships simply don't work as well as was > once thought. > Marriage never used to be about love...it was an > economic idea. Purely > a tribal notion based on procreation, quelling > inter-tribe violence, > etc. Now we expect marriage to be the vehicle for > interpersonal and > individual happiness. But there's notion inherent to > the notion of > marriage that says it will provide these things. It > was never designed > to. > > So, we're in a period of flux. How do we remake > inter-personal > relationships so as to maximize our ability to lead > a good life (by > whatever measure). The answer clearly seems to be > that what works for > some people doesn't work for everyone. However, the > prevalent social > mores in this country preclude us from experimenting > in any meaningful > way in trying to create new kinds of interpersonal > bonds. Given the > option and the will, there are a lot of > possibilities that one could > try. Maybe some people would opt for > chemical/hormonal de-sexing. Maybe > sex is too much of a hindrance in finding the kind > of happiness I'm > talking about. I don't know. The point is, if we > don't develop an > environment that encourages that kind of > experimentation and > exploration then we will be selling ourselves short. > > -NJ > > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Al Brooks wrote: > > Well, you got right to it. > look, I'll be 50 in another year or so, do not want > to > be an old maid, so what is so terrible about > marrying > a 15 year old before my body is unmarketable? We put > on this brave front like we're going to live > indefinitely but anybody could die in an accident, > the > future is great but there's today too. > If I have a good time, make it to 65 then get > suspended, that's good enough. If you make it to 65 > or > 70 it can be called a good life. Aren't you thankful > for small favors? > > --- nsjacobus at yahoo.com wrote: > > True enough. However, still, this makes me think > > that since what we are > > really talking about is something far more general > > than the notion of > > marriage, shouldn't we, as Extropians, really be > > trying to abolish the > > specific-notion of "marriage" altogether ? > > > > I mean, I can understand that gays want simply to > > have the same rights > > as heteros (and they should), but ultimately if > the > > "traditional" > > notion of marriage is backwards (in a certain > > Extropian sense), > > shouldn't we be trying to go way further here? > > > > Death To Marriage! > > > > > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:25 PM, Al Brooks wrote: > > > > Any sort of marriage anyone wants or doesn't want. > > Right now there's pressure for people to get > > married-- and believe it or nor I accept this > > opposition. But there are those of us who will > pull > > the tug o' war rope from the other direction. You > > know > > what this country is about, how Americans change > > things-- with utmost fuss & bother. There was a > four > > year war merely to abolish slavery. To grant women > > the > > vote took how many decades? > > > > > >> If we (whoever) were to build a society from > the > >> bottom up (on the > >> moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the > >> ocean, etc), ie: from > >> scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc > > should > >> such a society have > >> (if any) for "Marriage"? > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> extropy-chat mailing list > >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >> > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > >> > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > > protection around > > http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > Cheers, > > Nigel. > > --- > > "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be > > mean because, > > remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " > > > > -Buckaroo Banzai > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > Cheers, > Nigel. > --- > "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be > mean because, > remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " > > -Buckaroo Banzai > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From trichrom at optusnet.com.au Fri Nov 5 04:58:46 2004 From: trichrom at optusnet.com.au (RobKPO) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:58:46 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... References: <20041105035925.83683.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002a01c4c2f4$245cd950$925eecdc@turtle> I thought marriage was one of the success's of the western world created by the church. It addresses issues of public health in expanding populations by minimising people 'sleeping around' and spreading diseases (also by promoting the family and home unit perhaps), and that kids grow up better if parentage is relatively stable and ownership of the kid is supported by heritage. Of course that was useful hundreds of years ago, and also if you dont believe the spiritual aspects of joining soul's, reincarnation, etc. RobKPO From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 05:03:45 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:03:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: References: <20041105042152.65761.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <023f01c4c2f4$d4653db0$a51e4842@kevin> lol! I used to think that way. Then I realized that on my own, I could do very little to change the world. This is especially because I didn;t even realize it needed changing until I was already in my late 20s. I have an agenda to do away with irrational decision making about my future based on a book that is thousands of years old. Then I realized just how important children were to the equation. First of all, if I can get all three to think similar to me, then I have increased the odds of accomplishing my goals. Also, they will be able to accomplish more since they are already exposed to my mindset. Also, if Christians and the uneducated are having lots of children, and the number of children continues to go down with increased education, then we will be overrun before we ever reach the singularity. I figured I would do my part and raise a total of three. These three increase my chances of accomplishing my goals, and also will have an incentive to bring me back should the technology to do so come about in their lifetimes. All I am teaching them is to be open minded, to question everything, to never stop learning, and that they can live forever without the hocus pocus of the bible. I encourage any kind of learning they take on. My house is like a freaking kids laboratory/library with unrestricted Google access for all. I carefully guide them though the tough questions, but I answer them. Above all, I teach them to think for themselves. All I can do is hope that they think like me, but as long as they think doe themselves, I will have accomplished a great deal for the future. When I am done with these three, I will probably adopt 1 or 2 just for kicks. Then at least I know I did my part to keep them out of a Christian household. :-) Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Brooks" To: "Kevin Freels" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:21 PM Subject: Re: > I like women better, but don't want to have any > children at all. My friend is 50 with a kid, he's a > professor but he's got three on-off freelance jobs > plus his wife is swamped, she's making snide remarks > about their 'love child', they hardly have time to > smile. Frankly I'd rather live in a boring trailer > park in the sticks watching TV than take care of > anyone's children. > > > > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > > Well as I said, I can;t speak for Mike. I have > > custody of two children from > > a previous marriage and have a girlfriend that I > > have lived with for several > > years. They are both girls and they are being > > brought up in the most > > untraditional way. They are taught to respect > > everyone, but to question > > everything. They are taught that the very worst > > thing a person could be is a > > non-thinking hater and a hypocrite. I don't > > personally see how one's sexual > > orientation has any bearing on family except for in > > a few cases. One such > > case is mine. I have two girls and I have custody. I > > would have a very tough > > time teaching them all that girl stuff myself. A > > male mate wouldn;t be much > > of a help either. BUT, all that means is that I > > would have to find a way to > > make sure a woman was in their lives. That woman > > could be my mother, sister, > > a friend, or someone I hired to be their "woman > > tutor". > > > > I will say that I think it is important that > > children be brought up to know > > how to function in a hetero society. Hetero must be > > the norm, or the > > population would crash and our species would become > > extinct. Since the > > majority then must be hetero, they need to learn to > > live in a hetero > > society. They need to understand gender roles. They > > do not, however, need to > > be brainwashed into those roles. In fact, I think > > their awareness of these > > roles will make them always conscious of what they > > are doing rather than > > reacting with the masses. They need to understand > > all of the options > > available to them, then be treated with respect > > regardless of what they > > choose.... > > > > So what of the traditional family? There is nothing > > wrong with it. It is a > > good thing. It only becomes a problem when people > > become narrow minded and > > think that their way is right. It becomes a problem > > when parents teach their > > children to hate. It is not a bad thing and Mike is > > right to protect it. But > > I don;t see how he could perceive gay marriage as a > > threat to that. It has > > no bearing on his family. > > People who are closed minded come from all different > > ways of life. There are > > close minded gays who want to rub homosexuality in > > people's faces. There are > > Christians who do the same with their religion. > > There are blacks who rub > > their blackness in people's faces. I could go on and > > on. None of these > > people are being productive. > > > > I think Mike has a difefrent agenda. He wants to > > protect your rights..but > > not at the expense of everyone elses. To him, and to > > me, an American isn;t a > > Gay American, or African American, or Islamic > > American. Everyone is just a > > plain old boring American...and if you are on the > > public dole, he is after > > you. > > > > In short, Mike is an equal-opportunity hater. > > > > > > Gay families are not a threat to hetero families. It > > is either the excuse > > that anti-gay people use to justify their behavior, > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Al Brooks" > > To: "Kevin Freels" > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:16 PM > > > > > > > Okay, nevertheless we're not objective in these > > > matters, perhaps it's me projecting on you, yet as > > far > > > as I know from everything I've observed, most > > everyone > > > is grinding an axe concerning the family > > institution: > > > "my family right or wrong". > > > Now of course the things have to be done slowly, > > if > > > straights dominate until, say, the 2070s or '80s > > > that's fine w/ me, but to change you've got to > > have > > > those who push to get the ball rolling. If we > > listened > > > to Mike heteros would rule until after 2100. > > > > > > > > > --- Kevin Freels > > wrote: > > > > > > > Not anarchists. Government has many necessary > > > > functions. Handing out other > > > > people's money isn;t one of them. It doesn;t > > matter > > > > if you give it to a str8 > > > > guy or a gay woman; it is still wrong. > > > > > > > > You said, "For me there's no reason to think > > those > > > > who say they want > > > > government out of marriage actually do," > > > > Don;t be so paranoid. There are a lot of bad > > people > > > > out there, but that is > > > > no way to live. We're not all bad. Any time you > > push > > > > against the norm, you > > > > get a lot of resistance. Most of us here push > > those > > > > envelopes regularly. > > > > Being gay is no different. I didn;t choose to be > > an > > > > atheist....God made me > > > > that way. :-) > > > > > > > > The only reason gays have gotten so much > > resistance > > > > is because they are > > > > normalizing homosexuality. Us cryo, AI, MNT, > > > > transhumanism people simply > > > > haven;t become a large enough target yet. Give > > it > > > > time. Eventually there > > > > will be a group out there called "Gays Against > > > > Artificial Intelligrnce" and > > > > they will be working right alongside the church. > > > > > > > > Parity is a worthy goal. Personally I would be > > happy > > > > if all people were > > > > treated equally by the state. That is what I am > > > > after. I want to see the > > > > government put back to something that makes > > sense > > > > and is consistent. > > > > > > > > Cheers! > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "Al Brooks" > > > > To: "Kevin Freels" ; > > "ExI > > > > chat list" > > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:42 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right-- as far as you are concerned. For me > > > > there's no > > > > > reason to think those who say they want > > government > > > > out > > > > > of marriage actually do, so I reject religious > > > > > ceremony contract marriage. > > > > > I want parity for any alternatives to hetero > > > > marriage > > > > > based on what the benefits are for heteros at > > the > > > > > time. If on January 1st 2015 straights have x, > > > > then I > > > > > want gays and polys to be granted x as well. > > > > > > > > > > > As far as I am concerned, marriage should be > > an > > > > > > entirely religious ceremony. > > > > > > It should have nothing to do with > > government. It > > > > > > should not be regulated by > > > > > > the state. If a certain church wants to keep > > a > > > > > > certain type of people out of > > > > > > their group, then so be it. Groups with like > > > > beliefs > > > > > > should be allowed to > > > > > > congregate with like minded people. I don't > > > === message truncated === > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 05:08:58 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:08:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals References: <20041105044421.72383.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all those huge SUVs, Nascar, sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with gunracks, big number "3"s, and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the little man "pissing" on "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen it around on about 15 different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and prominently displayed on the rear windshield!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Brooks" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we have > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the culture > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: Jesus, > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir practice. 23 > skidoo. > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > extension, music, trendology- all that pointyheaded > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is superior, > they think there's is. > It's moving so slow but the years are going so fast. > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would seem > > to me that the > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that the > > insane Christian > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for years > > has come home to > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not able > > to control the > > strings of government too tightly, but there are now > > enough > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of the > > only remaining > > superpower. > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down the > > street I have a bunch > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up a > > cafe to lure and > > convert secular communists. These guys are really > > well organized and > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into Mormons > > from Utah on the > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > trying to spread the > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > democracy when they are > > not willing to actively engage those who disagree > > with them? Reading > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not going to > > change anyone's > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We need > > to become much more > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > Midwest! > > > > best, patrick > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From nsjacobus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:09:02 2004 From: nsjacobus at yahoo.com (nsjacobus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:09:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: <002a01c4c2f4$245cd950$925eecdc@turtle> References: <20041105035925.83683.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> <002a01c4c2f4$245cd950$925eecdc@turtle> Message-ID: Well, marriage is certainly far older than any modern church. Marriage in every time is about you and someone else filling a place in your local social system so that it can continue to function. However, with sophisticated political systems marriage doesn't need to fill that role anymore. So, what do we do with it? Toss it? Develop something better? As far as the spiritual aspects of marriage go, don't worry, we'll have a drug for that soon. On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:58 PM, RobKPO wrote: I thought marriage was one of the success's of the western world created by the church. It addresses issues of public health in expanding populations by minimising people 'sleeping around' and spreading diseases (also by promoting the family and home unit perhaps), and that kids grow up better if parentage is relatively stable and ownership of the kid is supported by heritage. Of course that was useful hundreds of years ago, and also if you dont believe the spiritual aspects of joining soul's, reincarnation, etc. RobKPO _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Cheers, Nigel. --- "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " -Buckaroo Banzai -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1413 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nsjacobus at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:12:53 2004 From: nsjacobus at yahoo.com (nsjacobus at yahoo.com) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:12:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: In-Reply-To: <023f01c4c2f4$d4653db0$a51e4842@kevin> References: <20041105042152.65761.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> <023f01c4c2f4$d4653db0$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <58AE978E-2EE9-11D9-A86B-000393AD804A@yahoo.com> We each have a profound ability to change the world...if even only for one person...ourselves. Don't underestimate the power and usefulness of radically changing your worldview. After all, that's all the world really is. Ever read JDBernal's: the World the Flesh and Devil? On Nov 5, 2004, at 12:03 AM, Kevin Freels wrote: lol! I used to think that way. Then I realized that on my own, I could do very little to change the world. This is especially because I didn;t even realize it needed changing until I was already in my late 20s. I have an agenda to do away with irrational decision making about my future based on a book that is thousands of years old. Then I realized just how important children were to the equation. First of all, if I can get all three to think similar to me, then I have increased the odds of accomplishing my goals. Also, they will be able to accomplish more since they are already exposed to my mindset. Also, if Christians and the uneducated are having lots of children, and the number of children continues to go down with increased education, then we will be overrun before we ever reach the singularity. I figured I would do my part and raise a total of three. These three increase my chances of accomplishing my goals, and also will have an incentive to bring me back should the technology to do so come about in their lifetimes. All I am teaching them is to be open minded, to question everything, to never stop learning, and that they can live forever without the hocus pocus of the bible. I encourage any kind of learning they take on. My house is like a freaking kids laboratory/library with unrestricted Google access for all. I carefully guide them though the tough questions, but I answer them. Above all, I teach them to think for themselves. All I can do is hope that they think like me, but as long as they think doe themselves, I will have accomplished a great deal for the future. When I am done with these three, I will probably adopt 1 or 2 just for kicks. Then at least I know I did my part to keep them out of a Christian household. :-) Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Brooks" To: "Kevin Freels" Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:21 PM Subject: Re: > I like women better, but don't want to have any > children at all. My friend is 50 with a kid, he's a > professor but he's got three on-off freelance jobs > plus his wife is swamped, she's making snide remarks > about their 'love child', they hardly have time to > smile. Frankly I'd rather live in a boring trailer > park in the sticks watching TV than take care of > anyone's children. > > > > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > >> Well as I said, I can;t speak for Mike. I have >> custody of two children from >> a previous marriage and have a girlfriend that I >> have lived with for several >> years. They are both girls and they are being >> brought up in the most >> untraditional way. They are taught to respect >> everyone, but to question >> everything. They are taught that the very worst >> thing a person could be is a >> non-thinking hater and a hypocrite. I don't >> personally see how one's sexual >> orientation has any bearing on family except for in >> a few cases. One such >> case is mine. I have two girls and I have custody. I >> would have a very tough >> time teaching them all that girl stuff myself. A >> male mate wouldn;t be much >> of a help either. BUT, all that means is that I >> would have to find a way to >> make sure a woman was in their lives. That woman >> could be my mother, sister, >> a friend, or someone I hired to be their "woman >> tutor". >> >> I will say that I think it is important that >> children be brought up to know >> how to function in a hetero society. Hetero must be >> the norm, or the >> population would crash and our species would become >> extinct. Since the >> majority then must be hetero, they need to learn to >> live in a hetero >> society. They need to understand gender roles. They >> do not, however, need to >> be brainwashed into those roles. In fact, I think >> their awareness of these >> roles will make them always conscious of what they >> are doing rather than >> reacting with the masses. They need to understand >> all of the options >> available to them, then be treated with respect >> regardless of what they >> choose.... >> >> So what of the traditional family? There is nothing >> wrong with it. It is a >> good thing. It only becomes a problem when people >> become narrow minded and >> think that their way is right. It becomes a problem >> when parents teach their >> children to hate. It is not a bad thing and Mike is >> right to protect it. But >> I don;t see how he could perceive gay marriage as a >> threat to that. It has >> no bearing on his family. >> People who are closed minded come from all different >> ways of life. There are >> close minded gays who want to rub homosexuality in >> people's faces. There are >> Christians who do the same with their religion. >> There are blacks who rub >> their blackness in people's faces. I could go on and >> on. None of these >> people are being productive. >> >> I think Mike has a difefrent agenda. He wants to >> protect your rights..but >> not at the expense of everyone elses. To him, and to >> me, an American isn;t a >> Gay American, or African American, or Islamic >> American. Everyone is just a >> plain old boring American...and if you are on the >> public dole, he is after >> you. >> >> In short, Mike is an equal-opportunity hater. >> >> >> Gay families are not a threat to hetero families. It >> is either the excuse >> that anti-gay people use to justify their behavior, >> or >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Al Brooks" >> To: "Kevin Freels" >> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 9:16 PM >> >> >>> Okay, nevertheless we're not objective in these >>> matters, perhaps it's me projecting on you, yet as >> far >>> as I know from everything I've observed, most >> everyone >>> is grinding an axe concerning the family >> institution: >>> "my family right or wrong". >>> Now of course the things have to be done slowly, >> if >>> straights dominate until, say, the 2070s or '80s >>> that's fine w/ me, but to change you've got to >> have >>> those who push to get the ball rolling. If we >> listened >>> to Mike heteros would rule until after 2100. >>> >>> >>> --- Kevin Freels >> wrote: >>> >>>> Not anarchists. Government has many necessary >>>> functions. Handing out other >>>> people's money isn;t one of them. It doesn;t >> matter >>>> if you give it to a str8 >>>> guy or a gay woman; it is still wrong. >>>> >>>> You said, "For me there's no reason to think >> those >>>> who say they want >>>> government out of marriage actually do," >>>> Don;t be so paranoid. There are a lot of bad >> people >>>> out there, but that is >>>> no way to live. We're not all bad. Any time you >> push >>>> against the norm, you >>>> get a lot of resistance. Most of us here push >> those >>>> envelopes regularly. >>>> Being gay is no different. I didn;t choose to be >> an >>>> atheist....God made me >>>> that way. :-) >>>> >>>> The only reason gays have gotten so much >> resistance >>>> is because they are >>>> normalizing homosexuality. Us cryo, AI, MNT, >>>> transhumanism people simply >>>> haven;t become a large enough target yet. Give >> it >>>> time. Eventually there >>>> will be a group out there called "Gays Against >>>> Artificial Intelligrnce" and >>>> they will be working right alongside the church. >>>> >>>> Parity is a worthy goal. Personally I would be >> happy >>>> if all people were >>>> treated equally by the state. That is what I am >>>> after. I want to see the >>>> government put back to something that makes >> sense >>>> and is consistent. >>>> >>>> Cheers! >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Al Brooks" >>>> To: "Kevin Freels" ; >> "ExI >>>> chat list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 8:42 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage >>>> >>>> >>>>> Right-- as far as you are concerned. For me >>>> there's no >>>>> reason to think those who say they want >> government >>>> out >>>>> of marriage actually do, so I reject religious >>>>> ceremony contract marriage. >>>>> I want parity for any alternatives to hetero >>>> marriage >>>>> based on what the benefits are for heteros at >> the >>>>> time. If on January 1st 2015 straights have x, >>>> then I >>>>> want gays and polys to be granted x as well. >>>>> >>>>>> As far as I am concerned, marriage should be >> an >>>>>> entirely religious ceremony. >>>>>> It should have nothing to do with >> government. It >>>>>> should not be regulated by >>>>>> the state. If a certain church wants to keep >> a >>>>>> certain type of people out of >>>>>> their group, then so be it. Groups with like >>>> beliefs >>>>>> should be allowed to >>>>>> congregate with like minded people. I don't >> > === message truncated === > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Cheers, Nigel. --- "Hey, hey, hey. Don't be mean. We don't have to be mean because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. " -Buckaroo Banzai -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 10332 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 05:32:20 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:02:20 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105041242.63263.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <710b78fc04110419566b0d9483@mail.gmail.com> <20041105041242.63263.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc041104213270dcefbb@mail.gmail.com> But in this case, if you mean the middle east, it'd most likely settle down if it was left alone. It's the US that proposes to go tearing through it starting general war. The driver for that is greedy people supported by a fearful populace, a populace afraid of "terror" (lol!). So, it's the fear for security that'll end up causing any such war. Whereas, if there was more idea that things are generally good and the outlook positive, the reactions from fear would subside and that war and related trouble become less likely. Like economics, politics is shaped by confidence. We are in a very low confidence phase, like a global political depression, but it doesn't reflect the reality of our lives imo. Emlyn On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:12:42 -0800 (PST), Al Brooks wrote: > Sure & I'm thankful just for agricultural, whether > it's high tech or organic hippie farms. It's not the > 'West' that is getting worrisome it's West and Central > Asia. Of course it probably wont go down this line too > far yet there's fair odds of a general war where many > get killed or sick from the... whatever. > My Dad didn't think he'd have to go off to WWII but > it came closer & closer inching up until he could see > it coming. > > > > > > I think one of > > the biggest > > issues we have in the west at present is that we > > (generally) don't > > realise just how good we have it. People are only > > seeing the bad > > stuff. We need to remind everyone (and ourselves) > > that personal > > freedom and self direction are going gangbusters. > > Don't sell it short! > > > > Happier people would make decisions we could all be > > proud of, I think, > > rather than thinking and acting meanly as I see too > > many people do, > > especially in areas like foreign policy. It *should* > > be a no brainer, > > because there's a lot to be happy about. > > > > > > > As transhumanists, a useful job would be one > > of > > > > reassurance; lots of > > > > > head patting and comforting... "there there, > > it's > > > > ok, look out the > > > > > window can you see it's a beautiful day? The > > world > > > > your children and > > > > > your grandchildren are inheriting and creating > > may > > > > be weird and fast, > > > > > but it is really good, better than you might > > have > > > > dreamed." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a really good point. I try to do this at > > > > times, but more often than > > > > not, I get going about how great the future is > > going > > > > to be and end up > > > > scaring the hell out of people. Often I am > > reminded > > > > that these are "obvious" > > > > hints that Armageddon is upon us (again). > > > > I really should spend a bit more time > > head-patting. > > > > Maybe if we all do a > > > > little of this, people will relax a bit. :-) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > > -- > > Emlyn > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software > > * > > _______________________________________________ > > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > ===== > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:39:12 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:39:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105053912.54458.qmail@web51609.mail.yahoo.com> three years I spent in Vermont were good- yet New England is more crowded and you can feel it. It's OK because Yankees leave you alone. Farther out West you can spread out a little, despite the amusing, to say the least, culture. The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros like ours' better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all > those huge SUVs, Nascar, > sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with > gunracks, big number "3"s, > and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the > little man "pissing" on > "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen > it around on about 15 > different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and > prominently displayed on the rear > windshield!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for > individuals > > > > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we > have > > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the > culture > > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: > Jesus, > > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir > practice. 23 > > skidoo. > > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > > extension, music, trendology- all that > pointyheaded > > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is > superior, > > they think there's is. > > It's moving so slow but the years are going so > fast. > > > > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would > seem > > > to me that the > > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that > the > > > insane Christian > > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for > years > > > has come home to > > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not > able > > > to control the > > > strings of government too tightly, but there are > now > > > enough > > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of > the > > > only remaining > > > superpower. > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down > the > > > street I have a bunch > > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up > a > > > cafe to lure and > > > convert secular communists. These guys are > really > > > well organized and > > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into > Mormons > > > from Utah on the > > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > > trying to spread the > > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > > democracy when they are > > > not willing to actively engage those who > disagree > > > with them? Reading > > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not > going to > > > change anyone's > > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We > need > > > to become much more > > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > > Midwest! > > > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:39:22 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:39:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105053922.86643.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> three years I spent in Vermont were good- yet New England is more crowded and you can feel it. It's OK because Yankees leave you alone. Farther out West you can spread out a little, despite the amusing, to say the least, culture. The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros like ours' better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all > those huge SUVs, Nascar, > sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with > gunracks, big number "3"s, > and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the > little man "pissing" on > "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen > it around on about 15 > different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and > prominently displayed on the rear > windshield!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for > individuals > > > > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we > have > > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the > culture > > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: > Jesus, > > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir > practice. 23 > > skidoo. > > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > > extension, music, trendology- all that > pointyheaded > > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is > superior, > > they think there's is. > > It's moving so slow but the years are going so > fast. > > > > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would > seem > > > to me that the > > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that > the > > > insane Christian > > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for > years > > > has come home to > > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not > able > > > to control the > > > strings of government too tightly, but there are > now > > > enough > > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of > the > > > only remaining > > > superpower. > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down > the > > > street I have a bunch > > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up > a > > > cafe to lure and > > > convert secular communists. These guys are > really > > > well organized and > > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into > Mormons > > > from Utah on the > > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > > trying to spread the > > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > > democracy when they are > > > not willing to actively engage those who > disagree > > > with them? Reading > > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not > going to > > > change anyone's > > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We > need > > > to become much more > > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > > Midwest! > > > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:39:37 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:39:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105053937.86822.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> three years I spent in Vermont were good- yet New England is more crowded and you can feel it. It's OK because Yankees leave you alone. Farther out West you can spread out a little, despite the amusing, to say the least, culture. The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros like ours' better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all > those huge SUVs, Nascar, > sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with > gunracks, big number "3"s, > and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the > little man "pissing" on > "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen > it around on about 15 > different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and > prominently displayed on the rear > windshield!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for > individuals > > > > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we > have > > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the > culture > > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: > Jesus, > > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir > practice. 23 > > skidoo. > > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > > extension, music, trendology- all that > pointyheaded > > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is > superior, > > they think there's is. > > It's moving so slow but the years are going so > fast. > > > > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would > seem > > > to me that the > > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that > the > > > insane Christian > > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for > years > > > has come home to > > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not > able > > > to control the > > > strings of government too tightly, but there are > now > > > enough > > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of > the > > > only remaining > > > superpower. > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down > the > > > street I have a bunch > > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up > a > > > cafe to lure and > > > convert secular communists. These guys are > really > > > well organized and > > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into > Mormons > > > from Utah on the > > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > > trying to spread the > > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > > democracy when they are > > > not willing to actively engage those who > disagree > > > with them? Reading > > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not > going to > > > change anyone's > > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We > need > > > to become much more > > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > > Midwest! > > > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:39:43 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:39:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105053943.86857.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> three years I spent in Vermont were good- yet New England is more crowded and you can feel it. It's OK because Yankees leave you alone. Farther out West you can spread out a little, despite the amusing, to say the least, culture. The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros like ours' better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all > those huge SUVs, Nascar, > sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with > gunracks, big number "3"s, > and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the > little man "pissing" on > "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen > it around on about 15 > different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and > prominently displayed on the rear > windshield!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for > individuals > > > > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we > have > > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the > culture > > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: > Jesus, > > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir > practice. 23 > > skidoo. > > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > > extension, music, trendology- all that > pointyheaded > > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is > superior, > > they think there's is. > > It's moving so slow but the years are going so > fast. > > > > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would > seem > > > to me that the > > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that > the > > > insane Christian > > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for > years > > > has come home to > > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not > able > > > to control the > > > strings of government too tightly, but there are > now > > > enough > > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of > the > > > only remaining > > > superpower. > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down > the > > > street I have a bunch > > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up > a > > > cafe to lure and > > > convert secular communists. These guys are > really > > > well organized and > > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into > Mormons > > > from Utah on the > > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > > trying to spread the > > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > > democracy when they are > > > not willing to actively engage those who > disagree > > > with them? Reading > > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not > going to > > > change anyone's > > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We > need > > > to become much more > > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > > Midwest! > > > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:40:00 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:40:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105054000.86803.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> three years I spent in Vermont were good- yet New England is more crowded and you can feel it. It's OK because Yankees leave you alone. Farther out West you can spread out a little, despite the amusing, to say the least, culture. The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros like ours' better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all > those huge SUVs, Nascar, > sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with > gunracks, big number "3"s, > and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the > little man "pissing" on > "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen > it around on about 15 > different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and > prominently displayed on the rear > windshield!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for > individuals > > > > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we > have > > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the > culture > > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: > Jesus, > > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir > practice. 23 > > skidoo. > > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > > extension, music, trendology- all that > pointyheaded > > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is > superior, > > they think there's is. > > It's moving so slow but the years are going so > fast. > > > > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would > seem > > > to me that the > > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that > the > > > insane Christian > > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for > years > > > has come home to > > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not > able > > > to control the > > > strings of government too tightly, but there are > now > > > enough > > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of > the > > > only remaining > > > superpower. > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down > the > > > street I have a bunch > > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up > a > > > cafe to lure and > > > convert secular communists. These guys are > really > > > well organized and > > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into > Mormons > > > from Utah on the > > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > > trying to spread the > > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > > democracy when they are > > > not willing to actively engage those who > disagree > > > with them? Reading > > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not > going to > > > change anyone's > > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We > need > > > to become much more > > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > > Midwest! > > > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:40:59 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:40:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105054059.87166.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros think we're better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all > those huge SUVs, Nascar, > sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with > gunracks, big number "3"s, > and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the > little man "pissing" on > "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen > it around on about 15 > different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and > prominently displayed on the rear > windshield!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for > individuals > > > > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we > have > > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the > culture > > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: > Jesus, > > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir > practice. 23 > > skidoo. > > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > > extension, music, trendology- all that > pointyheaded > > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is > superior, > > they think there's is. > > It's moving so slow but the years are going so > fast. > > > > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would > seem > > > to me that the > > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that > the > > > insane Christian > > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for > years > > > has come home to > > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not > able > > > to control the > > > strings of government too tightly, but there are > now > > > enough > > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of > the > > > only remaining > > > superpower. > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down > the > > > street I have a bunch > > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up > a > > > cafe to lure and > > > convert secular communists. These guys are > really > > > well organized and > > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into > Mormons > > > from Utah on the > > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > > trying to spread the > > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > > democracy when they are > > > not willing to actively engage those who > disagree > > > with them? Reading > > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not > going to > > > change anyone's > > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We > need > > > to become much more > > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > > Midwest! > > > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:41:05 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:41:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105054105.20197.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros think we're better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm in the midwest too. Don;t you just love all > those huge SUVs, Nascar, > sports bars, and 4x4 trucks on huge wheels with > gunracks, big number "3"s, > and a huge WWJD sticker in the window next to the > little man "pissing" on > "Osma" sticker? (Yes, that's not a typo. I have seen > it around on about 15 > different vehicles. "Osama" misspelled and > prominently displayed on the rear > windshield!) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Brooks" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:44 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The next steps for > individuals > > > > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we > have > > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the > culture > > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: > Jesus, > > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir > practice. 23 > > skidoo. > > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > > extension, music, trendology- all that > pointyheaded > > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is > superior, > > they think there's is. > > It's moving so slow but the years are going so > fast. > > > > > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would > seem > > > to me that the > > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that > the > > > insane Christian > > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for > years > > > has come home to > > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not > able > > > to control the > > > strings of government too tightly, but there are > now > > > enough > > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of > the > > > only remaining > > > superpower. > > > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down > the > > > street I have a bunch > > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up > a > > > cafe to lure and > > > convert secular communists. These guys are > really > > > well organized and > > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into > Mormons > > > from Utah on the > > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > > trying to spread the > > > word? What hope do progressive forces have in a > > > democracy when they are > > > not willing to actively engage those who > disagree > > > with them? Reading > > > (or writing) op-ed pieces in NYTimes is not > going to > > > change anyone's > > > views in small towns in South or Mid-West. We > need > > > to become much more > > > directly active if we want to change beliefs. > > > > > > We need Extropian missionaries in the South and > > > Midwest! > > > > > > best, patrick > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > ===== > > Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:41:31 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:41:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105054131.68877.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros think we're better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:41:52 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:41:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <024501c4c2f5$8effee90$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105054152.87557.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> The funniest part is when you try to explain to them that their retro values are different but not necessarily better (even though we metros think we're better). They look at you all bug-eyed, as if you urinated in their flowerbeds. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 05:43:22 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:43:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <20041105054000.86803.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105054322.20681.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> this server is awry, a signal to go night-night. And We're supposed to stick to six posts a day. ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 05:54:43 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:24:43 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] The next steps for individuals In-Reply-To: <20041105044421.72383.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41DB29A4-2E80-11D9-8560-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <20041105044421.72383.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0411042154382a09c7@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 20:44:21 -0800 (PST), Al Brooks wrote: > It's not so bad in America, as a wise poster just > wrote "we in the West don't realise how good we have > it". I live in the Midwest and don't like the culture > at all, Midwestern Monster Mix, it is called: Jesus, > booze, bowling for Columbine, beer, Choir practice. 23 > skidoo. > But they look at me and are sickened too; life > extension, music, trendology- all that pointyheaded > intolech shoe-L stuff. I think my 'stuff' is superior, > they think there's is. > It's moving so slow but the years are going so fast. > > > What about the Midwest and the South? It would seem > > to me that the > > problem is a lot closer to home. Its clear that the > > insane Christian > > meme that we have been politely ignoring for years > > has come home to > > roost. It was ignorable as long as it was not able > > to control the > > strings of government too tightly, but there are now > > enough > > fundamentalist christians to control the fate of the > > only remaining > > superpower. > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ > > > > I live in a small East German town. Just down the > > street I have a bunch > > of Texan Baptist missionaries who have opened up a > > cafe to lure and > > convert secular communists. These guys are really > > well organized and > > funded. Not only that I constantly bump into Mormons > > from Utah on the > > tram. How many Extropians do you find in Texas > > trying to spread the > > word? As far as extros go, Texas is relatively packed out with them. You know who you are, Texas extros! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 06:23:23 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:23:23 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> I may not have formulated my point well Andrew: I know what you say here is true. The difference between the two camps used to be, that Reps wanted a smaller state and more economic freedom, and the Dems wanted more state intervention and are prepared to accept less economic freedom against more social policies. You had smart and well educated people and good arguments in both camps and people used to vote on issues and not on ideology. But these elections were not about the size of the state. As many many Rep voters said in exit polls, they were about moral values. And they mentioned specifically God, gay marriage and stem cells. I am not complaining that you elected a Republican president. There have been many good Republican presidents. I am complaining that you elected a president who wants to turn the US into a fundamentalist theocracy in the purest taliban style. G. On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:49:44 -0800, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > The Democrats and the left wing at large and the Europeans (which have > attrocious media coverage of US politics -- it is more "fair and > balanced" in Communist Asia) need to come to grips with the fact that > the majority of Republicans are neither ill-educated, un-worldly, or > even particularly religious. Some factions are, but not the major > portion of the party. That is nothing more than the liberal Democrats > trying to make themselves feel better by putting down the other guy and > not bothering to really study their opponent. > > Most Republicans I know, and I know many having lived in many > traditionally conservative areas (I even have aunts and uncles who are > fairly senior GOP officials), are pro-choice, very well travelled and > worldly, non-religious (many atheists), and as educated as your average > Democrat. As long as the Democrats and liberals maintain the fiction > that Republicans are ignorant hillbillies, religious white trash, and > country club executives, they will continue to get their clocks cleaned > in the elections because they do not know their opponent (see: Sun Tzu) From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Nov 5 07:04:06 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:04:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:23 PM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I am not complaining that you elected a Republican president. There > have been many good Republican presidents. I am complaining that you > elected a president who wants to turn the US into a fundamentalist > theocracy in the purest taliban style. This is yet another example of what I was talking about though. There is not a shred of evidence that the president "wants to turn the US into a fundamentalist theocracy in the purest taliban style". That is pure tin foil whack job conspiracy theory fodder. This is the type of crap the right wing fringe always said about Clinton, with the same level of enthusiasm and assuredness, and with the same quality of "proof" and "evidence". It is precisely the same comfortable fallacious reasoning that makes people believe that if a person owns a gun, they will commit a mass murder at some point in the future. Or that if you have a penis, you'll likely be a rapist given the opportunity. It is nonsense. Yet I hear garbage reasoning like this all the time, and after the election, on this list of all places. We have had plenty of very religious presidents in the past, and we undoubtedly will have more in the future. Never has it resulted in a taliban-style theocracy, or a real theocracy of any type. Although the left-wing uses this to great effect to whip up opposition from secular audiences. Old political trick, and you guys fell for it. Get a grip people, and some legitimate historical perspective. At least try to apply consistent and reasonable standards of analysis to the election. Stop drinking the hyperbole Kool-Aid that the opposition parties are always too willing to provide. j. andrew rogers From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Nov 5 07:27:47 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:27:47 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> Message-ID: <006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Sahyinepu" > My faith has married > several members who are gay, that is our choice...if Baptists don't > want to do it, that is their choice...no one is being forced to marry > anyone...but the state should give the same legal protection and > recognition to gays as it gives to non-gays. Choice. There's the magic word. It implies a certain amount of freedom. To choose. To decide certain things for oneself, or not. You know, I was thinking about this very thing today ... this "great divide" that is pulling Americans apart is about freedom and control. Loosely speaking (yet seriously speaking) ... Republicans in office today want *control* over people, and Democracts want more *freedom*. Of course, many Democrat politicians sadly are destined to compromise on many issues just to be elected or just to stay in office - and so it's often difficult to tell who's about what. But, over the past half century, especially, generally Democrats have led the way in overturning many changes that resulted in more people having more freedom. I know, I know - Mike will disagree because (for example) if he owns a house he is no longer able to "discriminate" against certain people - so I will guess that Mike will define these kinds of societal changes as an invasion of *his* freedom. Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 07:32:38 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:32:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20041104111039.029010d0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20041104111039.029010d0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52041104233274dbee41@mail.gmail.com> Unfortunately I don't think there can be a secular worship as these two concepts do not fit together but are radically opposed. I am reading a very interesting article on "weak theology": http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.2/robbins.pdf On secularism as weakening of thought: "Weak thought is not a term of derision, but a positive term of praise that can be used as a tool for political emancipation and a more democratic philosophy. It produces "a desirable humility about our own moral intuitions and about the social institutions to which we have become accustomed. This humility will encourage tolerance for other intuitions, and a willingness to experiment with ways of refashioning or replacing institutions." Now if this is "weak thought", I am happy to be a weak thinker and I am sure many on this list will agreee. But why is it called weak? It is called weak in opposition to "strong thought": thought based on absolute truths, unity, totality, strong categories, ultimate foundations, aiming at providing absolute foundations for knowledge and action. These terms have neen often used by the contemporary philosoper Gianni Vattimo. Now, as weak thinkers, I am afraid we have to acknowledge that strong thought is, well, stronger than weak thought in terms of its immediate appeal to the majority of people. Secularism is weak, worship is strong. Rights are weak, duties are strong. Tolerance is weak, righteousness is strong. Thinkers are weak, warriors are strong. Negotiation is weak, attack is strong. Love is strong, hate is strong, but understanding is weak. In other words: reason is weak, religion is strong. According to the last political news: a fundamentalist elected US president, a fundamentalist kicked out of the European Commission, most Europeans are weak thinkers, and most Americans are strong thinkers. Perhaps this is because in Europe we have already fallen in love with strong ideologies in Germany and Italy before the second world war, and have seen the catastrophic consequences. But going back to religion, perhaps the reason why it is still an important factor after centuries of scientific advances is that it is strong thought, and this is what most people still want: absolute certainties and strong truths. Is transhumanist strong or weak? Well it is clearly weak: it is based on calm logical reasoning, tolerance for diversity, etc. This is also evident from our linguistic habits on this list: we say too often "I think that", "in my own opinion", "I understand your point but", ... these are all weak statements that do NOT appeal to those who want strong certainties. Face it, they want strong systems of belief and messianic leaders. My question: can transhumanism be presented as strong thought? And who wants to be a charismatic leader? G. > Damien: Time for humanism and transhumanism to > start thinking seriously > once again (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others > did nearly a century > ago, without getting anywhere) about some sort of > secular equivalent of > worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive > emotionally enriched > fellowship. From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Nov 5 07:48:30 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:48:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> <006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:27 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > Republicans in office today want > *control* over people, and Democracts want more *freedom*. That you believe this is part of the problem. The Democrats no more want freedom than the Republicans do. You just prefer the shackles offered by the Democrats to the ones offered by the Republicans, happily volunteering to give up many freedoms for yourself and others nominally in exchange for some freedoms you have an emotional attachment to. All in the name of "freedom", of course. Just because you do not cherish certain freedoms and are willing to discard them without a second thought does not mean that everyone else does nor that you should have the right to arbitrarily discard *their* freedoms at the point of a gun because you have declared them unimportant. That is a grotesque kind of selfishness. j. andrew rogers From scerir at libero.it Fri Nov 5 07:54:35 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:54:35 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net><470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005001c4c30c$b19655e0$75bd1b97@administxl09yj> From: "J. Andrew Rogers" > Yet I hear garbage reasoning like this > all the time, and after the election, > on this list of all places. It is the old "it is bad to be oppressed by a minority but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority" effect. But in this expanding and mixing world (media, breaking walls, information tech, etc.) - and now http://ray.tomes.biz/expand.html :-) - it is more and more difficult to see a real majority and a real minority, at least to me. s. "For the Athenians were not only brave and patriotic and capable of generous sacrifice, but they were the most religious of the Greeks. They venerated the constitution which had given them prosperity and equality and the pride of freedom, and never questioned the fundamental laws which regulated the enormous power of the Assembly. They tolerated considerable variety of opinion, and great license of speech; and their humanity towards their slaves roused the indignation even of the most intelligent partisan of aristocracy. Thus they became the only people of antiquity that grew great by democratic institutions. But the possession of unlimited power, which corrodes the conscience, hardens the heart, and confounds the understanding of monarchs exercised its demoralizing influence on the illustrious Democracy of Athens. It is bad to be oppressed by a minority; but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority. For there is a reserve of latent power in the masses which, if it is called into play, the minority can seldom resist. But from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason." http://www.acton.org/publicat/books/freedom/antiquity.html From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Nov 5 07:54:04 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:54:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <20041105000049.57222.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> <014601c4c2d9$df310500$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <00b101c4c30c$9f9c48e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Kevin Freels" > Even if I go to > the JP to get married instead of a church, they still invoke God. Really? When I got married in City Hall (San Francisco), there was *no* mention of any god. > Doing away with marriage...and civil unions would force everyone to make > those arrangements in contracts. I think it's all about options. Some people like the idea of marriage - sometimes (not always) because it binds families. It's like - we can't always choose our relatives, but we *can* choose to have someone be "related" to us by marriage. And speaking of families, I think it's been a boon for our society to have the prejudice against single parents lifted somewhat, as well as the stigma of "divorce." I'm neither for nor against marriage. I am, however, for options and the freedom to make the choices that are available to people (and, of course, this would include having the same set of rules for heterosexuals and homosexuals or asexuals). Olga From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 08:06:54 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:06:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504110500065c447241@mail.gmail.com> OK, OK, maybe Giu1i0 was exaggerating to make a point. But I think he makes a legitimate point. GWB has made no bones about his supposed belief that God has put him in office for a "divine" purpose. Personally I'm not convinced he's nearly has religious as he makes out. But he won this election largely on the backs of the religious right, and he's not about to let them down now. You can be damned sure he feels he's got a mandate now and he aims to use it to push the fundy agenda down our throats. Get ready for 4 more years of thinly veiled gay-bashing, and attempts to encroach on abortion rights. Four more years of furrowed Federal brows and hand-wringing over the fate and moral rights of clumps of cells. While, thankfully, California strikes out on it's own to pursue the probable biomedical gold mine of stem cell research. Taliban-style theocracy? No, not quite. Alright, not even close. But is there really *that* much difference between depriving a woman of her freedom of reproductive choice and forcing her to wear a burka? Or how about constraining the familial rights of committed couples simply because they happen to be of the same sex? So, no, the Christian fundamentalist political agenda is not quite the same as a Taliban-style theocracy. But in my view it's really only a difference of degree, not kind. Of course YMMV Zero On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:04:06 -0800, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > On Nov 4, 2004, at 10:23 PM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > I am not complaining that you elected a Republican president. There > > have been many good Republican presidents. I am complaining that you > > elected a president who wants to turn the US into a fundamentalist > > theocracy in the purest taliban style. > > > This is yet another example of what I was talking about though. > > There is not a shred of evidence that the president "wants to turn the > US into a fundamentalist theocracy in the purest taliban style". That > is pure tin foil whack job conspiracy theory fodder. This is the type > of crap the right wing fringe always said about Clinton, with the same > level of enthusiasm and assuredness, and with the same quality of > "proof" and "evidence". It is precisely the same comfortable > fallacious reasoning that makes people believe that if a person owns a > gun, they will commit a mass murder at some point in the future. Or > that if you have a penis, you'll likely be a rapist given the > opportunity. It is nonsense. Yet I hear garbage reasoning like this > all the time, and after the election, on this list of all places. > > We have had plenty of very religious presidents in the past, and we > undoubtedly will have more in the future. Never has it resulted in a > taliban-style theocracy, or a real theocracy of any type. Although the > left-wing uses this to great effect to whip up opposition from secular > audiences. Old political trick, and you guys fell for it. > > Get a grip people, and some legitimate historical perspective. At > least try to apply consistent and reasonable standards of analysis to > the election. Stop drinking the hyperbole Kool-Aid that the opposition > parties are always too willing to provide. > > > j. andrew rogers > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Nov 5 08:06:55 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:06:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net><006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> <15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <00e801c4c30e$6b1b82a0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "J. Andrew Rogers" > On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:27 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > Republicans in office today want > > *control* over people, and Democracts want more *freedom*. > > That you believe this is part of the problem. The Democrats no more > want freedom than the Republicans do. Let's just start with ... er, Republicans (all generally speaking here) support a woman's right to choose? Republicans led the marches for civil rights, gay rights and women's rights? Republicans want to support stem cell research? Republicans want the separation of church and state? And - horror of horrors - do you *really* want to see what a conservative Supreme Court? Seriously? Olga From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 08:30:53 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:30:53 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship In-Reply-To: <470a3c52041104233274dbee41@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20041104111039.029010d0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <470a3c52041104233274dbee41@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a321705041105003013b23e74@mail.gmail.com> Actually maybe "secular worship" is not the right lingo. After all, if it's truly secular, what is it that you're worshipping? Worship is, and should be, reserved for the divine. In the thoroughly secular world view, there is no divine, only the unknown. So perhaps instead of "secular worship" we should think (and talk) in terms of "secular fellowship." There is a church nearby where I live, Agape International Spiritual Center, http://www.agapelive.com. I am by no means a regular attendee. But on those rare occasions when I'm inclined toward group meditation, communion and entertainment (the musical department is off the hook!), that's where I head. Unlike me, they are not a bunch of atheists. But their spirituality is broad enough to encompass just about every belief. There are roughly equal numbers of people from Christian, Buddhist, Muslim and less main-stream spiritual backgrounds. There are even (I'm told) more than a few atheists besides me who attend. It is one of the VERY few churches I can stomach because while it is heavy on the love, service and communion of humanity it is very light on the religious dogma. Of course I'd prefer to commune at a place that left all aspects of fairy-tale belief out of the fellowship. If I could find a place as inviting, loving, entertaining and dedicated to meeting the needs of the local and global community as they are at Agape, but felt no need to encumber that sense of community with fairy tales, that would be my idea of a perfect place of secular fellowship. Secular worship? I agree that's pretty much an oxymoron. Secular fellowship on the other hand I think could work. Zero > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:32:38 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Unfortunately I don't think there can be a secular worship as these > two concepts do not fit together but are radically opposed. > I am reading a very interesting article on "weak theology": > http://www.jcrt.org/archives/05.2/robbins.pdf > On secularism as weakening of thought: "Weak thought is not a term of > derision, but a positive term of praise that can be used as a tool for > political emancipation and a more democratic philosophy. It produces > "a desirable humility about our own moral intuitions and about the > social institutions to which we have become accustomed. This humility > will encourage tolerance for other intuitions, and a willingness to > experiment with ways of refashioning or replacing institutions." > Now if this is "weak thought", I am happy to be a weak thinker and I > am sure many on this list will agreee. But why is it called weak? > It is called weak in opposition to "strong thought": thought based on > absolute truths, unity, totality, strong categories, ultimate > foundations, aiming at providing absolute foundations for knowledge > and action. These terms have neen often used by the contemporary > philosoper Gianni Vattimo. > Now, as weak thinkers, I am afraid we have to acknowledge that strong > thought is, well, stronger than weak thought in terms of its immediate > appeal to the majority of people. > Secularism is weak, worship is strong. Rights are weak, duties are > strong. Tolerance is weak, righteousness is strong. Thinkers are weak, > warriors are strong. Negotiation is weak, attack is strong. Love is > strong, hate is strong, but understanding is weak. In other words: > reason is weak, religion is strong. > According to the last political news: a fundamentalist elected US > president, a fundamentalist kicked out of the European Commission, > most Europeans are weak thinkers, and most Americans are strong > thinkers. Perhaps this is because in Europe we have already fallen in > love with strong ideologies in Germany and Italy before the second > world war, and have seen the catastrophic consequences. > But going back to religion, perhaps the reason why it is still an > important factor after centuries of scientific advances is that it is > strong thought, and this is what most people still want: absolute > certainties and strong truths. > Is transhumanist strong or weak? Well it is clearly weak: it is based > on calm logical reasoning, tolerance for diversity, etc. This is also > evident from our linguistic habits on this list: we say too often "I > think that", "in my own opinion", "I understand your point but", ... > these are all weak statements that do NOT appeal to those who want > strong certainties. > Face it, they want strong systems of belief and messianic leaders. > My question: can transhumanism be presented as strong thought? And who > wants to be a charismatic leader? > G. > > > Damien: Time for humanism and transhumanism to > > > > start thinking seriously > > once again (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others > > did nearly a century > > ago, without getting anywhere) about some sort of > > secular equivalent of > > worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive > > emotionally enriched > > fellowship. > _______________________________________________ > > > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Nov 5 09:08:01 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 01:08:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <00e801c4c30e$6b1b82a0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net><006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> <15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <00e801c4c30e$6b1b82a0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <319263EB-2F0A-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Nov 5, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > Let's just start with ... er, Republicans (all generally speaking here) > support a woman's right to choose? Yes. It has been dropped as a real platform for a reason -- there was no consensus within the party. I do not personally know any Republicans that are not pro-choice, and I know quite a few Republicans. > Republicans led the marches for civil > rights, gay rights and women's rights? You may want to read some history. The Democrats were on the wrong side of a great many civil rights issues. They've only claimed many of them after the fact. The Deep South has been pretty much 100% Democrat for more than a century up until the last few years and one of its core constituencies. Any faults regarding civil rights you see evident in or would paint on the Southern culture throughout history you'll have to paint on the Democratic party. Which includes race, gender, and sexual orientation discrimination. > Republicans want to support stem > cell research? Republicans want the separation of church and state? Yes, and yes. Your analysis has been shallow. The Republicans are a coalition of two major factions, a libertarian faction and a religious conservative faction. They have competing motivations but they've learned to get along. They originally formed a coalition to deal with the Democratic party back when they were a juggernaut for most of the 20th century. The religious conservative faction objects to stem cell research on moral grounds. The libertarian faction likes the research but objects to the Federal government funding it, particularly since there is no real shortage of private funding for it. The obvious policy compromise is to reduce or eliminate Federal funding of the research. The libertarian faction has long kept the religious faction in check with respect to the separation of church and state. I am not a Republican but I am an atheist, and I've never felt threatened by the bogeyman of the "religious right" in a legal sense. The Republican party has no designs toward establishing a state religion nor would the libertarian faction allow anything vaguely resembling that. And if the militant atheists in some Democrat factions would stop going out of their way to antagonize the religious Republicans (and yes, this does happen), this would largely dissipate as an issue. You need to learn to look at Republican policy from this perspective. Little gets done that does not pass the filter of both the libertarians and religious conservatives. This means that compromises usually only include things that both factions can agree on from an ideological standpoint. A few bones get thrown and occasionally there are very heated discussions within the party, but nothing really gets out of control. There are many, many pro-choice, atheist, gay-friendly Republicans, primarily because the Republicans only rarely step on the toes of these quasi-libertarian folks and vice-versa. Why do you think it is that drug legalization has occurred primarily in western Republican states rather than Democrat ones? The different factions have different proportional strengths in different parts of the country. Your view of Republicans is a highly biased caricature. > And - horror of horrors - do you *really* want to see what a > conservative > Supreme Court? Right now, I would settle for a non-activist court. The liberal courts have an egregious record in this regard (in evidence in the circuit courts and some State supreme courts), and to a greater extent than conservative courts generally. This is something I follow pretty closely, and the track records are not even close to similar in this respect. Knowing nothing else, I would choose a conservative court over a liberal court, only because conservative courts have a better track record of interpreting various constitutions in a reasonable and consistent fashion. That would be playing the odds. The push for more conservative courts and constitutional amendments rather than legislation is a backlash against what is rightly perceived as excessive and extra-constitutional legislation from liberal activist courts. I only hope that the conservative courts do not escalate the situation by responding in kind. cheers, j. andrew rogers From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 11:44:27 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 03:44:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship In-Reply-To: <7a321705041105003013b23e74@mail.gmail.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20041104183203.19053.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20041104111039.029010d0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <470a3c52041104233274dbee41@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705041105003013b23e74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04110503449772744@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 00:30:53 -0800, Zero Powers wrote: > Actually maybe "secular worship" is not the right lingo. After all, > if it's truly secular, what is it that you're worshipping? Worship > is, and should be, reserved for the divine. In the thoroughly secular > world view, there is no divine, only the unknown. So perhaps instead > of "secular worship" we should think (and talk) in terms of "secular > fellowship." Are you sure about this notion of worship? What is the Divine exactly? Couldn't we have a state nearly again to worship for the highest human and > human potential? Do Buddhist worship? What do they worship? The enligthened one, no? So why would it be impossible to worship the Transcended One? That isn't quite it either but I believe it is somewhere in this direction. > > There is a church nearby where I live, Agape International Spiritual > Center, http://www.agapelive.com. I am by no means a regular > attendee. But on those rare occasions when I'm inclined toward group > meditation, communion and entertainment (the musical department is off > the hook!), that's where I head. Unlike me, they are not a bunch of > atheists. But their spirituality is broad enough to encompass just > about every belief. There are roughly equal numbers of people from > Christian, Buddhist, Muslim and less main-stream spiritual > backgrounds. There are even (I'm told) more than a few atheists > besides me who attend. It is one of the VERY few churches I can > stomach because while it is heavy on the love, service and communion > of humanity it is very light on the religious dogma. > Sounds like a lovely place . > Of course I'd prefer to commune at a place that left all aspects of > fairy-tale belief out of the fellowship. If I could find a place as > inviting, loving, entertaining and dedicated to meeting the needs of > the local and global community as they are at Agape, but felt no need > to encumber that sense of community with fairy tales, that would be my > idea of a perfect place of secular fellowship. > What kind of fairy tales exactly? How about our own fairy tales full of grasping for what we and our "mind-children" will become and what will be necessary to get there? Not fairy tales necessarily but good working mythology and other tools of envisioning and living into being. > Secular worship? I agree that's pretty much an oxymoron. Secular > fellowship on the other hand I think could work. > Again, Buddhists have been doing stuff that looks like worship more or less for a long time without the notion of a God that western raised people seem to associate with it. - samantha From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Nov 5 12:46:14 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:46:14 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> <006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> <15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > On Nov 4, 2004, at 11:27 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > Republicans in office today want > > *control* over people, and Democracts want more *freedom*. > > > That you believe this is part of the problem. The Democrats no more > want freedom than the Republicans do. > > You just prefer the shackles offered by the Democrats to the ones > offered by the Republicans, happily volunteering to give up many > freedoms for yourself and others nominally in exchange for some > freedoms you have an emotional attachment to. All in the name of > "freedom", of course. Ah, take the smallest political quiz and see where you stand... http://www.self-gov.org/quiz.html Regards, MB From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 13:35:20 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:35:20 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net><006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac><15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com><00e801c4c30e$6b1b82a0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <319263EB-2F0A-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <002001c4c33c$4bc85210$a51e4842@kevin> Nice analysis. I am one of those pro-choice, atheist, libertarian republicans. :-) I am surprised you didn;t mention that the democratic party likes to pass anti-gun laws, hate speech laws, stealing private property for environmental reasons, and rediculous requirements on business owners such as laws to prohibit smoking in restaraunts and handicap access to stripper stages. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Andrew Rogers" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 3:08 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > On Nov 5, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > Let's just start with ... er, Republicans (all generally speaking here) > > support a woman's right to choose? > > > Yes. It has been dropped as a real platform for a reason -- there was > no consensus within the party. I do not personally know any > Republicans that are not pro-choice, and I know quite a few > Republicans. > > > > Republicans led the marches for civil > > rights, gay rights and women's rights? > > > You may want to read some history. The Democrats were on the wrong > side of a great many civil rights issues. They've only claimed many of > them after the fact. The Deep South has been pretty much 100% Democrat > for more than a century up until the last few years and one of its core > constituencies. Any faults regarding civil rights you see evident in > or would paint on the Southern culture throughout history you'll have > to paint on the Democratic party. Which includes race, gender, and > sexual orientation discrimination. > > > > Republicans want to support stem > > cell research? Republicans want the separation of church and state? > > > Yes, and yes. Your analysis has been shallow. > > The Republicans are a coalition of two major factions, a libertarian > faction and a religious conservative faction. They have competing > motivations but they've learned to get along. They originally formed a > coalition to deal with the Democratic party back when they were a > juggernaut for most of the 20th century. > > The religious conservative faction objects to stem cell research on > moral grounds. The libertarian faction likes the research but objects > to the Federal government funding it, particularly since there is no > real shortage of private funding for it. The obvious policy compromise > is to reduce or eliminate Federal funding of the research. The > libertarian faction has long kept the religious faction in check with > respect to the separation of church and state. I am not a Republican > but I am an atheist, and I've never felt threatened by the bogeyman of > the "religious right" in a legal sense. The Republican party has no > designs toward establishing a state religion nor would the libertarian > faction allow anything vaguely resembling that. And if the militant > atheists in some Democrat factions would stop going out of their way to > antagonize the religious Republicans (and yes, this does happen), this > would largely dissipate as an issue. > > You need to learn to look at Republican policy from this perspective. > Little gets done that does not pass the filter of both the libertarians > and religious conservatives. This means that compromises usually only > include things that both factions can agree on from an ideological > standpoint. A few bones get thrown and occasionally there are very > heated discussions within the party, but nothing really gets out of > control. > > > There are many, many pro-choice, atheist, gay-friendly Republicans, > primarily because the Republicans only rarely step on the toes of these > quasi-libertarian folks and vice-versa. Why do you think it is that > drug legalization has occurred primarily in western Republican states > rather than Democrat ones? The different factions have different > proportional strengths in different parts of the country. Your view of > Republicans is a highly biased caricature. > > > > And - horror of horrors - do you *really* want to see what a > > conservative > > Supreme Court? > > > Right now, I would settle for a non-activist court. The liberal courts > have an egregious record in this regard (in evidence in the circuit > courts and some State supreme courts), and to a greater extent than > conservative courts generally. This is something I follow pretty > closely, and the track records are not even close to similar in this > respect. Knowing nothing else, I would choose a conservative court > over a liberal court, only because conservative courts have a better > track record of interpreting various constitutions in a reasonable and > consistent fashion. That would be playing the odds. > > The push for more conservative courts and constitutional amendments > rather than legislation is a backlash against what is rightly perceived > as excessive and extra-constitutional legislation from liberal activist > courts. I only hope that the conservative courts do not escalate the > situation by responding in kind. > > cheers, > > j. andrew rogers > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Nov 5 14:23:51 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 06:23:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net><006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac><15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com><00e801c4c30e$6b1b82a0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <319263EB-2F0A-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <005401c4c343$13ba2d10$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "J. Andrew Rogers" > > On Nov 5, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > Let's just start with ... er, Republicans (all generally speaking here) > > support a woman's right to choose? > > Yes. It has been dropped as a real platform for a reason -- there was > no consensus within the party. I do not personally know any > Republicans that are not pro-choice, and I know quite a few > Republicans. Yes, Bush carefully walked around the issue and only dealt with "partial birth abortion." And the whole matter with stem cells has something to do with the so-called "pro-life" stance, too. You may not personally know any Republicans that are not pro-choice, but certainly you have to admit there are many more Republicans (than Democrats) who are anti-choice out there. And Ashcroft (may he soon retire so he will have more time to handle snakes and sing gospel) - remember the brouhaha over the statue with exposed breasts? (he was against it, and put a drape over it before he would speak in front of it). That's another way conservatives/Republicans want to *control* things - censorship. > > Republicans led the marches for civil > > rights, gay rights and women's rights? > > You may want to read some history. The Democrats were on the wrong > side of a great many civil rights issues. They've only claimed many of > them after the fact. The Deep South has been pretty much 100% Democrat > for more than a century up until the last few years and one of its core > constituencies. Any faults regarding civil rights you see evident in > or would paint on the Southern culture throughout history you'll have > to paint on the Democratic party. Which includes race, gender, and > sexual orientation discrimination. Civil rights was a *liberal* cause and victory. Being spoon fed The "wrong side" you refer to here is, I suspect, having been reared in the heart of Dixie and been weaned > > Republicans want to support stem > > cell research? Republicans want the separation of church and state? > > > Yes, and yes. Your analysis has been shallow. > > The Republicans are a coalition of two major factions, a libertarian > faction and a religious conservative faction. They have competing > motivations but they've learned to get along. They originally formed a > coalition to deal with the Democratic party back when they were a > juggernaut for most of the 20th century. > > The religious conservative faction objects to stem cell research on > moral grounds. The libertarian faction likes the research but objects > to the Federal government funding it, particularly since there is no > real shortage of private funding for it. The obvious policy compromise > is to reduce or eliminate Federal funding of the research. The > libertarian faction has long kept the religious faction in check with > respect to the separation of church and state. I am not a Republican > but I am an atheist, and I've never felt threatened by the bogeyman of > the "religious right" in a legal sense. The Republican party has no > designs toward establishing a state religion nor would the libertarian > faction allow anything vaguely resembling that. And if the militant > atheists in some Democrat factions would stop going out of their way to > antagonize the religious Republicans (and yes, this does happen), this > would largely dissipate as an issue. > > You need to learn to look at Republican policy from this perspective. > Little gets done that does not pass the filter of both the libertarians > and religious conservatives. This means that compromises usually only > include things that both factions can agree on from an ideological > standpoint. A few bones get thrown and occasionally there are very > heated discussions within the party, but nothing really gets out of > control. > > > There are many, many pro-choice, atheist, gay-friendly Republicans, > primarily because the Republicans only rarely step on the toes of these > quasi-libertarian folks and vice-versa. Why do you think it is that > drug legalization has occurred primarily in western Republican states > rather than Democrat ones? The different factions have different > proportional strengths in different parts of the country. Your view of > Republicans is a highly biased caricature. > > > > And - horror of horrors - do you *really* want to see what a > > conservative > > Supreme Court? > > > Right now, I would settle for a non-activist court. The liberal courts > have an egregious record in this regard (in evidence in the circuit > courts and some State supreme courts), and to a greater extent than > conservative courts generally. This is something I follow pretty > closely, and the track records are not even close to similar in this > respect. Knowing nothing else, I would choose a conservative court > over a liberal court, only because conservative courts have a better > track record of interpreting various constitutions in a reasonable and > consistent fashion. That would be playing the odds. > > The push for more conservative courts and constitutional amendments > rather than legislation is a backlash against what is rightly perceived > as excessive and extra-constitutional legislation from liberal activist > courts. I only hope that the conservative courts do not escalate the > situation by responding in kind. > > cheers, > > j. andrew rogers > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From amara at amara.com Fri Nov 5 14:44:12 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:44:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship Message-ID: >> Of course I'd prefer to commune at a place that left all aspects of >> fairy-tale belief out of the fellowship. If I could find a place as >> inviting, loving, entertaining and dedicated to meeting the needs of >> the local and global community as they are at Agape, but felt no need >> to encumber that sense of community with fairy tales, that would be my >> idea of a perfect place of secular fellowship. Samantha: >What kind of fairy tales exactly? How about our own fairy tales >full of grasping for what we and our "mind-children" will become and >what will be necessary to get there? Not fairy tales necessarily but >good working mythology and other tools of envisioning and living into >being. Zero: Maybe there is something here that is helpful: Mythology for Transhumans http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/318/ Amara -- *********************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ *********************************************************************** "The universe: a device contrived for the perpetual astonishment of astronomers." -- Arthur C. Clarke From etcs.ret at verizon.net Fri Nov 5 15:10:30 2004 From: etcs.ret at verizon.net (stencil) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:10:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: <200411050455.iA54tm009207@tick.javien.com> References: <200411050455.iA54tm009207@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <3l4no01cg15kqabjpqoqili4k93gnoos2p@4ax.com> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:07:36 -0500 in extropy-chat Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 nsjacobus wrote > [ ... ] > If we (whoever) were to build a society from the bottom up (on the >moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the ocean, etc), ie: from >scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc should such a society have >(if any) for "Marriage"? > One possibility is to build into the legal kernel a provision for Registered Entities composed of aggregates of two or more individuals. The RE's could have the fictive person status of today's joint stock corporations. "Individuals," in time, would include persons with little or no human genetic material. Society, through the organ of government, would be able to provide the RE with such benefits as respect for its possessions, validation of its contracts, and other guarantees of right that now are awarded to individuals, sometimes. Most Registered Entities doubtless would be indistinguishable from today's marriages and corporations, but extended families ("dynasties"), development groups, crews, and gangs also could be expected to achieve and bear the rights and responsibilities of personhood. Hm. Sounds like 18th Century Italy. stencil sends From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Nov 5 15:23:12 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:23:12 -0800 Subject: Fw: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville Message-ID: <00aa01c4c34b$5dab7de0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Sorry, my fingers got gimpy on me and I sent off my reply before I meant to. This is the complete version. From: "J. Andrew Rogers" > > > On Nov 5, 2004, at 12:06 AM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > Let's just start with ... er, Republicans (all generally speaking here) > > support a woman's right to choose? > > Yes. It has been dropped as a real platform for a reason -- there was > no consensus within the party. I do not personally know any > Republicans that are not pro-choice, and I know quite a few > Republicans. Well, Bush carefully walked around the issue and only dealt with "partial birth abortion." And the whole matter with stem cells has something to do with the so-called "pro-life" stance, too. Remember how I kept emphasizing "generally speaking"? You may not personally know any Republicans that are not pro-choice, but you have to admit there are many more Republicans (than Democrats) who are anti-choice out there. And, get this - *anesthetizing fetuses*? What will they think of next?: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/politics/campaign/04conserve.html?pagewanted=print&position Ahh, Ashcroft (may he soon retire so he will have more time to handle snakes and sing in his gospel choir) - remember the brouhaha over the statue with exposed breasts? (he was against it - or, them - and put a drape over the statue before he would speak in front of it). Censorship is a problem with *conservatives,* more so than with the liberals, wouldn't you say? > > Republicans led the marches for civil > > rights, gay rights and women's rights? > You may want to read some history. The Democrats were on the wrong > side of a great many civil rights issues. They've only claimed many of > them after the fact. The Deep South has been pretty much 100% Democrat > for more than a century up until the last few years and one of its core > constituencies. Any faults regarding civil rights you see evident in > or would paint on the Southern culture throughout history you'll have > to paint on the Democratic party. Which includes race, gender, and > sexual orientation discrimination. Baby, I didn't just read history - I *participated* in it. Civil rights was a *liberal* cause and victory. Southern Democrats notwithstanding (and note, many "Southerners" have shifted parties since), the civil rights that have been won for people (not just "racial" civil rights) over the decades has been far-and-away largely due to Democrats. > > Republicans want to support stem > > cell research? Republicans want the separation of church and state? > Yes, and yes. Your analysis has been shallow. ... The Republicans are a coalition of two major factions, a libertarian faction and a religious conservative faction. Yes, I am aware of the two major factions. Remember how I kept emphasizing "generally speaking?" Olga From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 15:44:24 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:44:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush wants another $75 billion for wars In-Reply-To: <20041105014443.94292.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105154424.4540.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Okay...so how do you prevent managers from cashing > > > out the company between reports and leaving > > > shareholders with an empty bag? > > > > If the managers obtain their stock via employee > > purchase or options > > programs, they would be required to only buy or sell > > stock in the month > > or two AFTER the annual or bi-annual report is > > released. > > Which requires government regulation to enforce. Not necessarily. Stockholders could simply vote to mandate it as company policy, insurance providers could mandate it, etc.. > > > Anyone who > > purchases stock on the open market could buy and > > sell whenever they > > want. > > What of managers who more literally "cash out" the > company by rigging their compensation, then resigning > just before the report to the board is due, but never > own (or don't care about) shares in the company? Managers compensation is approved by the company board of directors. If management is rigging the board, then the stockholders are asleep at the wheel. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 15:47:41 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:47:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <418ADD89.9070901@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20041105154741.6240.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bryan Moss wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Still not getting it. The most common refrain that pollsters found > >was that people were saying "I'm not against gays, I just don't want > >them rubbing my face in it." > > > >It would take a pretty extravagant wedding ring to amount to "rubbing > their face in it," wouldn't it? Or wedding party. Expect to see a movie titled "My Big Fat Gay Wedding" in the not too distant future. Gay wedding reality shows. It may be stereotypical, but its still true: nobody does flamboyant like gays. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 15:58:53 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:58:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage (WAS: No Joy in Mudville) In-Reply-To: <015e01c4c2de$bd14c600$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105155853.5539.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I keep seeing these statements going back and forth. I think > something is missing here. I would like to start this over. > > Mike Lorrey and I have both proposed that rather than allowing gay > marriage, the government should get out of the marriage business > altogether. Some who have responded have acted as if Mike and I > are bigots, homophobes, etc. I can;t speak for Mike, but I assure > you I am not. Neither am I, and there are gay members of this list who know me and know that I am not. My being against government marriage is of the same philosophy that makes me against government stem cell research. As anybody here who knows me (and that is a significant number) I am the absolutely LAST person anyone would accuse of being against stem cell research in general (or any kind of research or technological development) and I EXTREMELY resent that a few here with statist agendas would try to claim otherwise. Just as I am not anti-research, I am also not anti-gay. Get it through your thick, addled, welfare addicted heads: I hate that you want to parasitize on government and the taxpayer. I certainly don't hate you or your gayness, or you or your stem-cell research. Do you people get it yet? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua Fri Nov 5 14:57:48 2004 From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 17:57:48 +0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nietzsche on Religion Incorporated In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041104091112.01b66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20041105173916.00b584b0@pop.cris.net> At 09:23 AM 11/4/04 -0600, you wrote: >At 07:00 AM 11/4/2004 -0800, the Spikester wrote: >>Isn't it shocking? Religion Incorporated seems >>to be making a raging comeback in our modern world. Damien Broderick replied: >In all sorts of brands and guises. It's bitterly ironic (to me, anyway) that avowedly hi-tech widely educated societies such as the USA and Russia have so many citizens reaching for the god pill, while their antagonists are swigging madly from the god bottle, all factions boiling away with contrived and almost arbitrary iconologies of bigotry. The key phrase: >It starts to look as if people really *do* find secular scientific cultures too `cold' and `impersonal' and even `inhaman' to sustain the glow of life. >True, there are parts of Europe and Australasia where Religion Incorporated has been sidelined for a few generations, but I'll bet it comes ripping back in the clutches. Time for humanism and transhumanism to start thinking seriously once again (as Bertrand Russell and Wells and others did nearly a century ago, without getting anywhere) about some sort of secular equivalent of worship (ugh; whatever) and mutually supportive emotionally enriched fellowship. But I don't imagine it will emerge from any bunch of INTJs like this list... >Damien Broderick From Human, All Too Human, Section V, Signs of Higher and Lower Culture, 251 http://www.underthesun.cc/Nietzsche/Human/Human259.html Future of science. To the man who works and searches in it, science gives much pleasure; to the man who learns its results, very little. But since all important scientific truths must eventually become everyday and commonplace, even this small amount of pleasure ceases; just as we have long ago ceased to enjoy learning the admirable multiplication tables. Now, if science produces ever less joy in itself and takes ever greater joy in casting suspicion on the comforts of metaphysics, religion, and art, then the greatest source of pleasure, to which mankind owes almost its whole humanity, is impoverished. Therefore a higher culture must give man a double brain, two brain chambers, as it were, one to experience science, and one to experience nonscience. Lying next to one another, without confusion, separable, self-contained: our health demands this. In the one domain lies the source of strength, in the other the regulator. Illusions, biases, passions must give heat; with the help of scientific knowledge, the pernicious and dangerous consequences of overheating must be prevented. If this demand made by higher culture is not satisfied, we can almost certainly predict the further course of human development: interest in truth will cease, the less it gives pleasure; illusion, error, and fantasies, because they are linked with pleasure, will reconquer their former territory step by step; the ruin of the sciences and relapse into barbarism follow next. Mankind will have to begin to weave its cloth from the beginning again, after having, like Penelope, destroyed it in the night. But who will guarantee that we will keep finding the strength to do so? ==== Best! Gennady Simferopol Crimea Ukraine From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 16:24:04 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:24:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage (WAS: No Joy in Mudville) In-Reply-To: <20041105155853.5539.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105162404.54221.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> An apology is in order, this is a site concerning extropianism, not sexual politics, and i started the thread. Both of you are not bigots or homophobes, however everyone is a hypocrite; denying such only magnifies the validity of the statement. > > Mike Lorrey and I have both proposed that rather > than allowing gay > > marriage, the government should get out of the > marriage business > > altogether. Some who have responded have acted as > if Mike and I > > are bigots, homophobes, etc. I can;t speak for > Mike, but I assure > > you I am not. > > Neither am I, and there are gay members of this list > who know me and > know that I am not. My being against government > marriage is of the same > philosophy that makes me against government stem > cell research. As > anybody here who knows me (and that is a significant > number) I am the > absolutely LAST person anyone would accuse of being > against stem cell > research in general (or any kind of research or > technological > development) and I EXTREMELY resent that a few here > with statist > agendas would try to claim otherwise. Just as I am > not anti-research, I > am also not anti-gay. Get it through your thick, > addled, welfare > addicted heads: I hate that you want to parasitize > on government and > the taxpayer. I certainly don't hate you or your > gayness, or you or > your stem-cell research. Do you people get it yet? > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 16:34:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:34:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Prop 71: The New Gold Rush In-Reply-To: <7a321705041104203914873a77@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041105163458.16473.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> once more the loony bin banana republic of Kalifornia, so shortly on the heels of repeated power and revinue crises, is quick to rob the productive and stick in the hypodermic needle full of social smack. Not surprised. Help a Californicator get his credit life straightened out, the first thing they do is go back out and max out the cards. Keep spending that money, Cali, you're just bringin on the revolution that much quicker. --- Zero Powers wrote: > Some choose to deride my beloved State of Taxifornia, but after this > election I love my country a little bit less and my state a little > bit > more. > > I wonder if it's too late for California to get on the secession > bandwagon? Those southern rebels may have been on to something after > all. Heck, maybe we could persuade New York to join in with us for a > bi-coastal confederacy. That way we'd have the buggers surrounded! > > The coasts shall rise again!!! > > Zero > > > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:57:18 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > wrote: > > Wired: Scientists around the country who study embryonic stem cells > > may be mourning four more years of President Bush's restrictive > > funding policy, but California scientists are throwing a party, and > > top researchers in less-funded states are hoping for invitations. > > In the Golden State, stem cell researchers will see a windfall of > $3 > > billion over the next 10 years, averaging about $300 million a > year, > > thanks to the passage of Proposition 71, the California Stem Cell > > Research and Cures Initiative. It shouldn't be difficult to entice > the > > best minds in the country to move to a place where their work is > fully > > supported by a state known for its mild climate. > > California has found a way to supplant federal money with its stem > > cell initiative, and it's the envy of the rest of the country's > stem > > cell researchers. > > > http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,65588,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1 > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 16:46:53 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:46:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041105164653.15793.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I am not complaining that you elected a Republican president. There > have been many good Republican presidents. I am complaining that you > elected a president who wants to turn the US into a fundamentalist > theocracy in the purest taliban style. This is a bit much. I am sure this is what your european media is telling you, while your own nations are capitulating to muslim immigrant populations left and right. Trying to claim Bush is the most religious president is ludicrous. Carter easily beats him in the devotional department, while being more of a sentiment of preferring to let America be devoured by lions in the arena in pacifistic bliss (which is why the Romans must love him so). ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 16:53:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:53:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20041105165332.19656.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > You know, I was thinking about this very thing today ... this "great > divide" that is pulling Americans apart is about freedom and control. > Loosely speaking (yet seriously speaking) Republicans in office today > want *control* over people, and Democracts want more *freedom*. This is so wrong I nearly don't know where to start. Democratic Governor-elect John Lynch here bused up teamsters to beat up republican campaigners, they vandalized campaign signs all over the state, and border jumped on election day to steal the election here. Before taking office he's announced he'll ban expansion of the Mount Sunapee resort to appease the tree huggers. He's proposed $800 million in new spending with no way to pay for it. He'll have to double tax rates to pay for it. Some 'freedom'. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 17:19:16 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:19:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <20041105165332.19656.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004701c4c35b$9495c4e0$a51e4842@kevin> The thing that bugs me the most about the democratic party is their willingness to play the race card and their divide and conquer philosophy. They will say and do anything to get elected. Many here like John Kerry even though he pulled the God word out of his a** at every opportunity. He went to Michigan and talked about all the SUVs he owned, then went to an environmental group and when asked about it said they weren;t exactly "his". No, they are in his wife's name. He went on about "Benedict Arnold" companies that move jobs overseas, meanwhile, his wife's company moved thousands of jobs overseas. They are hypocrites worse than any republican. At least the Republican part, for the most part, acts in accordance with what they say. They tell blacks that republicans are racist when some of the most racist people I have met were Democrat Union Labor Rednecks. Dems want to ban smoking, write laws to control cell phone talk in cars, write laws to control hate speech, etc etc. They are the part of writing new laws. They want the cameras everywhere while repubs fight off the use of such devices. Dems will do and say anything to get elected. They say that repubs are for dirty air, for dirty water, for wealthy people, against poor people, against blacks,. against gays, against old people, and anything else thay can do to drive fear into the hearts of americans and this is simply not the case. People who do this are clearly more intersted in power than truth. I am not saying that Repubs are great or anything. But to claim that repubs want control more than dems is nuts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:53 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > > > You know, I was thinking about this very thing today ... this "great > > divide" that is pulling Americans apart is about freedom and control. > > > Loosely speaking (yet seriously speaking) Republicans in office today > > want *control* over people, and Democracts want more *freedom*. > > This is so wrong I nearly don't know where to start. Democratic > Governor-elect John Lynch here bused up teamsters to beat up republican > campaigners, they vandalized campaign signs all over the state, and > border jumped on election day to steal the election here. > > Before taking office he's announced he'll ban expansion of the Mount > Sunapee resort to appease the tree huggers. He's proposed $800 million > in new spending with no way to pay for it. He'll have to double tax > rates to pay for it. Some 'freedom'. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 17:22:04 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:22:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <004701c4c35b$9495c4e0$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105172204.79035.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Fair enough. But this is what Madison wanted. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > The thing that bugs me the most about the democratic > party is their > willingness to play the race card and their divide > and conquer philosophy. > They will say and do anything to get elected. Many > here like John Kerry even > though he pulled the God word out of his a** at > every opportunity. He went > to Michigan and talked about all the SUVs he owned, > then went to an > environmental group and when asked about it said > they weren;t exactly "his". > No, they are in his wife's name. He went on about > "Benedict Arnold" > companies that move jobs overseas, meanwhile, his > wife's company moved > thousands of jobs overseas. They are hypocrites > worse than any republican. > At least the Republican part, for the most part, > acts in accordance with > what they say. They tell blacks that republicans are > racist when some of the > most racist people I have met were Democrat Union > Labor Rednecks. Dems want > to ban smoking, write laws to control cell phone > talk in cars, write laws to > control hate speech, etc etc. They are the part of > writing new laws. They > want the cameras everywhere while repubs fight off > the use of such devices. > > Dems will do and say anything to get elected. They > say that repubs are for > dirty air, for dirty water, for wealthy people, > against poor people, against > blacks,. against gays, against old people, and > anything else thay can do to > drive fear into the hearts of americans and this is > simply not the case. > People who do this are clearly more intersted in > power than truth. > > I am not saying that Repubs are great or anything. > But to claim that repubs > want control more than dems is nuts. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Lorrey" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 10:53 AM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > > > > > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > > > > > > You know, I was thinking about this very thing > today ... this "great > > > divide" that is pulling Americans apart is about > freedom and control. > > > > > Loosely speaking (yet seriously speaking) > Republicans in office today > > > want *control* over people, and Democracts want > more *freedom*. > > > > This is so wrong I nearly don't know where to > start. Democratic > > Governor-elect John Lynch here bused up teamsters > to beat up republican > > campaigners, they vandalized campaign signs all > over the state, and > > border jumped on election day to steal the > election here. > > > > Before taking office he's announced he'll ban > expansion of the Mount > > Sunapee resort to appease the tree huggers. He's > proposed $800 million > > in new spending with no way to pay for it. He'll > have to double tax > > rates to pay for it. Some 'freedom'. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Nov 5 17:43:02 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:43:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105172204.79035.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041105172204.79035.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <24677044-2F52-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Wow. Huge amount of verbiage on this issue. I think people are talking past each other. As I see it there are too propositions: 1. Government should not be involved in marriage. 2. All people should be given equal rights in eyes of the law. Most people who support gay marriage are trying to fix No. 2, and may or may not think No. 1 is either a problem or perhaps changeable. Mike and others believe that its better to any more involvement with the government even if this means that certain people will not have the same rights as others. I comes down to what you think are more important. Personally, I can't see the US getting out the marriage business anytime soon, and I find it offensive that certain people are currently legally discriminated against. best, patrick From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Nov 5 17:55:57 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:55:57 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <290150-220041144181514880@M2W099.mail2web.com> References: <290150-220041144181514880@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: On 4 Nov 2004, at 19:15, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > I am a non-party voter, and at the moment, I do not have much to say on > this. But to answer your questino, I suppose one way of looking at it > is > that President Bush would be more aggressive toward protecting the > U.S. and > its citizens against terrorism. But surely its obvious that's he's failed? The whole situation is Iraq is in a terrible state don't you agree? Don't you think that the invasion of a country that had neither any involvement in 9/11 OR had any weapons of mass destruction (i.e., had neither attacked the US or the means to do so) has simply lead to date to +1100 US deaths, 10x US causalities, 100x Iraq deaths, 1000x Iraqi casualties and much less safety for America. In no way has Bush protected America. So how is this possibly Extropian? > He also says he wants to reform taxation. If he was cutting spending perhaps this would be true. But I recently read that the US today has $100 billion less revenue and $400 billion more expenditure than when Bush took on office. Tax reform without limiting spending is just stupid. So I am still no closer to finding out why anyone calling themselves and Extropian would vote for Bush. best, patrick From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 18:05:26 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:05:26 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <24677044-2F52-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <20041105172204.79035.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> <24677044-2F52-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:43:02 +0100, Patrick Wilken wrote: > Wow. Huge amount of verbiage on this issue. I think people are talking > past each other. As I see it there are too propositions: > > 1. Government should not be involved in marriage. > 2. All people should be given equal rights in eyes of the law. > > Most people who support gay marriage are trying to fix No. 2, and may > or may not think No. 1 is either a problem or perhaps changeable. Mike > and others believe that its better to any more involvement with the > government even if this means that certain people will not have the > same rights as others. > I can't believe it! The US has just voted for four more years of Bush and Rumsfeld Republicanism and the extropian list is going bananas about less government and gay marriage. There is no chance of any of that for at least four years. Come back to the real world sometime. Has the list been infected with the Don Quixote virus??? BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 18:05:52 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:05:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105164653.15793.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> <20041105164653.15793.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204110510055e78f44@mail.gmail.com> No, I do read European media, but I also read American media. Like today's NYT article attached below which, I believe, is quite relevant to this discussion. Now about muslim immigrant population: I shouldn't have to tell this to a Libertarian, but if they come, it is because there are jobs for them. If there are jobs for them, it is because there are jobs which need being done and no local wants to do. They come due to the free market of offer and demand, and we just bow and let them come. Should we introduce some even more protectionist policies to keep them out? Wouldn't you call this a massive intervention of the state in the economy? I think I am lost, I really thought I understood Libertarianism. Or perhaps we are talking of "racial purity"? Well, I will have to say that I just don?t care about the survival of the Italian, or British, or French, or German, or whatever "race". What I do care about, and a lot, is the survival of the human race. And I think our very survival is in danger because of racial conflicts. Isn't it better to be all coffee-with-milk posthumans? NYT article: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/04/opinion/04wills.html?ex=1100592981&ei=1&en=806f25bb8addc950 The Day the Enlightenment Went Out By GARRY WILLS Published: November 4, 2004 This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they could be turned out, would be the deciding factor. The success of the plan was registered not only in the presidential results but also in all 11 of the state votes to ban same-sex marriage. Mr. Rove understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution. This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in which William Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept of evolution was discredited. Disillusionment with that decision led many evangelicals to withdraw from direct engagement in politics. But they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, now, gay marriage. Mr. Rove felt that the appeal to this large bloc was worth getting President Bush to endorse a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage (though he had opposed it earlier). The results bring to mind a visit the Dalai Lama made to Chicago not long ago. I was one of the people deputized to ask him questions on the stage at the Field Museum. He met with the interrogators beforehand and asked us to give him challenging questions, since he is too often greeted with deference or flattery. The only one I could think of was: "If you could return to your country, what would you do to change it?" He said that he would disestablish his religion, since "America is the proper model." I later asked him if a pluralist society were possible without the Enlightenment. "Ah," he said. "That's the problem." He seemed to envy America its Enlightenment heritage. Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation? America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of Enlightenment values - critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. Though the founders differed on many things, they shared these values of what was then modernity. They addressed "a candid world," as they wrote in the Declaration of Independence, out of "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind." Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11. The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble those nations less than we do our putative enemies. Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. We find it in the Muslim world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. Americans wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so single-minded, so impervious to international appeals. They fear jihad, no matter whose zeal is being expressed. It is often observed that enemies come to resemble each other. We torture the torturers, we call our God better than theirs - as one American general put it, in words that the president has not repudiated. President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and abroad, with real respect. In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. His helpers are also his keepers. The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment. Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion." On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:46:53 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > > I am not complaining that you elected a Republican president. There > > have been many good Republican presidents. I am complaining that you > > elected a president who wants to turn the US into a fundamentalist > > theocracy in the purest taliban style. > > This is a bit much. I am sure this is what your european media is > telling you, while your own nations are capitulating to muslim > immigrant populations left and right. Trying to claim Bush is the most > religious president is ludicrous. Carter easily beats him in the > devotional department, while being more of a sentiment of preferring to > let America be devoured by lions in the arena in pacifistic bliss > (which is why the Romans must love him so). From jonkc at att.net Fri Nov 5 18:20:37 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:20:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard References: <290150-220041144181514880@M2W099.mail2web.com><710b78fc041104190414afda8c@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041104211236.01dadf88@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <013901c4c364$2d1bd080$9dff4d0c@hal2001> "Damien Broderick" . > don't you understand? They hate us because > we're *good*. The President said so. Close but not quite. We have done one thing that is absolutely unforgivable, we were successful; while Islam has not produced a good original idea since the invention of the zero, and that was 700 years ago, and even then was probably stolen from India. That is why they hate us more than they love life, not because we interfered with the election of some Iranian Prime minister 50 years ago that most people today, even in Iran, could not name. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 5 18:45:27 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 10:45:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nietzsche on Religion Incorporated In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20041105173916.00b584b0@pop.cris.net> References: <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <20041104075415.33809.qmail@web51606.mail.yahoo.com> <005f01c4c27f$0b1e3260$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <4.3.2.7.2.20041105173916.00b584b0@pop.cris.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041105104104.029368f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Talk about a person totally consumed by his own prejudice and beliefs! I take great pleasure in science, science fiction and speculations that come from them. I have my own prejudice, I find most 'humanities' insufferably dull rehashing the sameo sameo of dusty classical millenial mental fertilizer which has not had time to decay enough for the plants to use it. Stuffy old Russell..... :< > From Human, All Too Human, Section V, >Signs of Higher and Lower Culture, 251 >http://www.underthesun.cc/Nietzsche/Human/Human259.html > >Future of science. To the man who works and searches in it, science gives >much pleasure; to the man who learns its results, very little. >Gennady >Simferopol Crimea Ukraine ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 18:43:38 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:43:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <319263EB-2F0A-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> References: <68A34DC0-2EDE-11D9-A692-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> <006201c4c308$f4460240$6600a8c0@brainiac> <15D8DE06-2EFF-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <00e801c4c30e$6b1b82a0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <319263EB-2F0A-11D9-8895-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52041105104355643bce@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for this explanation Andrew, and I will just hope that "The libertarian faction has long kept the religious faction in check with respect to the separation of church and state" will continue. G. On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 01:08:01 -0800, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > The Republicans are a coalition of two major factions, a libertarian > faction and a religious conservative faction. They have competing > motivations but they've learned to get along. They originally formed a > coalition to deal with the Democratic party back when they were a > juggernaut for most of the 20th century. > > The religious conservative faction objects to stem cell research on > moral grounds. The libertarian faction likes the research but objects > to the Federal government funding it, particularly since there is no > real shortage of private funding for it. The obvious policy compromise > is to reduce or eliminate Federal funding of the research. The > libertarian faction has long kept the religious faction in check with > respect to the separation of church and state. I am not a Republican > but I am an atheist, and I've never felt threatened by the bogeyman of > the "religious right" in a legal sense. The Republican party has no > designs toward establishing a state religion nor would the libertarian > faction allow anything vaguely resembling that. And if the militant > atheists in some Democrat factions would stop going out of their way to > antagonize the religious Republicans (and yes, this does happen), this > would largely dissipate as an issue. > > You need to learn to look at Republican policy from this perspective. > Little gets done that does not pass the filter of both the libertarians > and religious conservatives. This means that compromises usually only > include things that both factions can agree on from an ideological > standpoint. A few bones get thrown and occasionally there are very > heated discussions within the party, but nothing really gets out of > control. > > There are many, many pro-choice, atheist, gay-friendly Republicans, > primarily because the Republicans only rarely step on the toes of these > quasi-libertarian folks and vice-versa. Why do you think it is that > drug legalization has occurred primarily in western Republican states > rather than Democrat ones? The different factions have different > proportional strengths in different parts of the country. Your view of > Republicans is a highly biased caricature. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 18:51:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:51:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: <20041105162404.54221.qmail@web51607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041105185100.39643.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > An apology is in order, this is a site concerning > extropianism, not sexual politics, and i started the > thread. > Both of you are not bigots or homophobes, however > everyone is a hypocrite; denying such only magnifies > the validity of the statement. That is just it, Al. I'm NOT a hypocrite. I am bluntly and sometimes rudely honest, direct, and consistent in my philosophy, principles, and politics. Your liberal smear may work on republicans, but it doesn't work on me. My integrity stands like a monument, and it has only one side to it. Hypocrisy is two facedness. I only have one face. You may not like that face, but you can't accuse it of hypocrisy. You may hate that face, but that only makes YOU the hypocrite. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 18:54:17 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:54:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <004701c4c35b$9495c4e0$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <20041105185417.38813.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > I am not saying that Repubs are great or anything. But to claim that > repubs want control more than dems is nuts. Getting back to our fav topic of stem cells, read on... [badnarik2004] YOU Libertarians are stupid!, by Ron Alridge All, I find this apalling. Up for a challenge? This was just posted by a Yale edumacated tv critic - it was just included in John Stossels weekly newsletter - Stossel is asking for responses Please e-mail him at johnstossel at abcnews.com : --- "Dear John: I am a former TV critic ("Chicago Tribune", "Charlotte Observer") and former publisher/editorial director of a leading TV industry trade ("Electronic Media") and I therefore consider myself to be a somewhat astute observer of television journalism. With that said, your recent rant against state funding for stem cell research in California was pandering, ideologically driven journalism at its worst...you just kept whining (you DO whine, you know) about the horror of using "taxpayer" money to fund stem cell research ... It was an embarrassing display of shallowness and stupidity at a high level of American journalism. John, let's give you a little Civics 101 lesson. See, government, by necessity, often takes on projects that are costly and that serve the greater public interest. That's more or less why we have government, in fact. Just because a whiny, middle-aged network journalist would rather buy another pair of Gucci loafers with "his" tax money doesn't give him the right to opt out of projects that he personally doesn't like...I don't like war, but I don't advocate allowing us antiwar types to prevent the government from spending tax dollars to maintain an army ... Such thinking represents a myopic, woefully ignorant view of the workings of a democracy. Much as it makes you so mad that you could spit and stomp, you can't always have your way in a democracy, John. It's not all about you or your Yuppie neighbor or the Bush Davidians with the Republican sign in their yard down the street. Your view or my view doesn't always prevail. The overarching point is that all of us must abide, more often than not, by the will of the majority. For you to suggest that any such example of majority rule can become "tyranny of the majority" is absurd ... John, allow me to let you in on a little secret about "your" tax dollars. Pssst, they aren't YOUR tax dollars. They never were. From the minute you punched in on the job, those dollars were the property of whatever governing body was entitled to them by law. You never EARNED that money. It was the price you paid for the privilege of working. It's just that the government gave you a break by not collecting in advance...You made yourself and your network look bad with your Friday night rant. It was childish, shallow and ignorant... Didn't they teach you anything at Princeton? I'm beginning to suspect that my late, Yale-educated friend and colleague, Gene Siskel, wasn't joking when he called Princeton a college "for kids with money and no brains." OK, that was ugly. But I enjoyed writing it. The truth is that the private sector is often a woefully inferior alternative to government, your libertarian ideology notwithstanding." -- Ron Alridge JOHN STOSSELS RESPONSE: Ron Alridge is actually one of the BETTER TV writers. His sneering hostility gives you a sense of what I'm up against in my biz. Regarding his argument about tyranny of the majority: Yes, in a democracy the minority must pay for wars they may not like, but war (like enforcing contracts and setting environment rules) is something that only government can do. I invite you to e-mail responses to his claim that we never "earned" our income, that it's government's property and "government gave you a break by not collecting in advance"! ---- Please send your comments and "Give Me a Break" suggestions to JohnStossel at abcnews.com. If you don't want your e-mail quoted, say you wish to remain anonymous. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 19:00:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:00:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <24677044-2F52-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20041105190051.39970.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken proves that even he can write past others in saying: > Wow. Huge amount of verbiage on this issue. I think people are > talking past each other. As I see it there are too propositions: > > 1. Government should not be involved in marriage. > 2. All people should be given equal rights in eyes of the law. > > Most people who support gay marriage are trying to fix No. 2, and may > or may not think No. 1 is either a problem or perhaps changeable. > Mike and others believe that its better to any more involvement with > the government even if this means that certain people will not have > the same rights as others. No, once more, stop saying things that are not true. I, and others, believe that everyone will have the same rights as everyone else once we get government once and for all out of regulating, controlling, or otherwise providing benefits to marriage. Solving (1) solves (2). You can solve (2) either buy doing (1) or by increasing the tyranny of government even more than it already is tyrannical. Those who support the tyrannical route are statists, whether they are gay or not. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From sahynepu at concentric.net Fri Nov 5 18:07:51 2004 From: sahynepu at concentric.net (Sahyinepu) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:07:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <20041105154741.6240.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9B73B3F6-2F55-11D9-BAD4-000502FB8EC2@concentric.net> Don't like it, don't see it in the theaters, change the television station, don't accept the invitation to the wedding. I am celibate and absolutely hate it when people all but have outright sex in public...you know the but grabbing, french kissing, PG13 crap they pull anywhere and everywhere..I don't want to ban human breeders though. But I must admit, setting up live traps to catch humans in bars and churches and then sterilizing them is a humorous idea of mine. Point is, there are aspects in society that most anyone would find offensive...most of us are mature enough to look the other way. The exception to that would be when one group wants to limit the ability of one group to express itself, even when such expression does not directly harm them. Like say, religious folks trying to ban gay marriage. Gays marrying does not harm them directly at all. Any more than horny as hell straight couples al but breeding in front of me harms me directly. It just pisses me off. Sah On Friday, November 5, 2004, at 09:47 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Bryan Moss wrote: > >> Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >>> Still not getting it. The most common refrain that pollsters found >>> was that people were saying "I'm not against gays, I just don't want >>> them rubbing my face in it." >>> >>> It would take a pretty extravagant wedding ring to amount to > "rubbing >> their face in it," wouldn't it? > > Or wedding party. Expect to see a movie titled "My Big Fat Gay Wedding" > in the not too distant future. Gay wedding reality shows. It may be > stereotypical, but its still true: nobody does flamboyant like gays. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 19:30:17 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 11:30:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: <3l4no01cg15kqabjpqoqili4k93gnoos2p@4ax.com> Message-ID: <20041105193017.41915.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> The idea of having to register ANY entity is what is anathema. --- stencil wrote: > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:07:36 -0500 > in extropy-chat Digest, Vol 14, Issue 11 > nsjacobus wrote > > > [ ... ] > > If we (whoever) were to build a society from the bottom up (on the > > >moon, in orbit, in the asteroid belt, under the ocean, etc), ie: > from > >scratch, what sort of support/allowance, etc should such a society > have > >(if any) for "Marriage"? > > > One possibility is to build into the legal kernel a provision for > Registered > Entities composed of aggregates of two or more individuals. The RE's > could > have the fictive person status of today's joint stock corporations. > "Individuals," in time, would include persons with little or no human > genetic > material. Society, through the organ of government, would be able to > provide > the RE with such benefits as respect for its possessions, validation > of its > contracts, and other guarantees of right that now are awarded to > individuals, > sometimes. > Most Registered Entities doubtless would be indistinguishable from > today's > marriages and corporations, but extended families ("dynasties"), > development > groups, crews, and gangs also could be expected to achieve and bear > the rights > and responsibilities of personhood. > Hm. Sounds like 18th Century Italy. > > stencil sends > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Nov 5 20:54:01 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:54:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard Message-ID: <257720-22004115520541732@M2W094.mail2web.com> From: Patrick Wilken "But surely its obvious that's he's failed? The whole situation is Iraq is in a terrible state don't you agree? Don't you think that the invasion of a country that had neither any involvement in 9/11 OR had any weapons of mass destruction (i.e., had neither attacked the US or the means to do so) has simply lead to date to +1100 US deaths, 10x US causalities, 100x Iraq deaths, 1000x Iraqi casualties and much less safety for America." No, it is not obvious that he failed. I am not defending him, I am being objective. History does not come in seconds, or moments. We may not know for some time in what ways Bush failed, or how severely he failed for some time. Regardless, judging whether or not he failed needs to be looked at from more than one perspective because there are many different areas in which he could have succeeded or failed, not just one. It is clear, however, that he failed in the eyes of many Americans, and the world. But, again, what constitutes winning or failing at this type of war game - I do not know. "In no way has Bush protected America. So how is this possibly Extropian?" I did not say he would be more protective or that he is Extropian. I did say that he was more aggressive than Kerry and more willing to do whatever it takes. One thing I suppose you could say is that he is following his own course, which relates to his level of individuality, and from that angle. > He also says he wants to reform taxation. "If he was cutting spending perhaps this would be true. But I recently read that the US today has $100 billion less revenue and $400 billion more expenditure than when Bush took on office. Tax reform without limiting spending is just stupid." I don't know about that, but it seems to be weak-minded. I heard on the news this morning that he wants to privatize social security. What do you think about that? "So I am still no closer to finding out why anyone calling themselves and Extropian would vote for Bush." I don't think you will get any closer my dear. -:) By the way, I don't think anyone needs to justify who and what they vote for, and I don't think it is open minded to judge people so loosely. One think I know for sure is that people are complex creatures and trying to fit them all in a fenced yard never works. Unlike chattel, people do not like to be herded and labeled. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Nov 5 22:07:14 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:07:14 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] 70 teraflops Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041105160023.01ab0760@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.fcw.com/print.asp Blue Gene pulls ahead in supercomputer race BY Aliya Sternstein Published on Nov. 5, 2004 For the fourth time in less than two months, a supercomputer speed record has been claimed. Energy Department officials said Nov. 4 that the agency's Blue Gene/L machine developed by IBM Corp. has hit processing speeds of 70.72 teraflops using the Linpack industry benchmark. That's almost double the speed Blue Gene achieved in late September, when the supercomputer broke the 2-year-old record held by NEC Computer Inc.'s Earth Simulator. ============= (When I was updating THE SPIKE in 2000, the record was about two teraflops, but IBM were claiming that by 2004 Blue Gene would achieve a petaflop. Still, 70 teraflops isn't dawdling--it's still been doubling once a year or so.) Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Nov 5 22:55:01 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:55:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] 70 teraflops In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041105160023.01ab0760@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041105225501.75440.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > For the fourth time in less than two months, a supercomputer speed > record has been claimed. > > Energy Department officials said Nov. 4 that the agency's Blue Gene/L > machine developed by IBM Corp. has hit processing speeds of 70.72 > teraflops using the Linpack Silicon Graphics CEO responds, "To quote IBM, 'you can't be number one forever.'" ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From moulton at moulton.com Fri Nov 5 20:04:08 2004 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:04:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bush appointment Message-ID: <1099685047.20563.439.camel@localhost> There is an email starting to make the rounds about Bush appointing some kook to a federal agency dealing with women's health issues. I saw it on a private Objectivist oriented list and I expect it will pop up here soon. The version I saw implied that it was recent. So before that email hits here I thought I would provide a pointer to an online page about it and hopefully keep the descussion from getting too far out of hand. You may want to read the entry at snopes for their take on it: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/hager.htm The questions "is Hagar a kook" and "is Bush a prevaricating menace" I will leave for another post. Fred From pharos at gmail.com Fri Nov 5 23:14:32 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:14:32 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] 70 teraflops In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041105160023.01ab0760@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041105160023.01ab0760@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:07:14 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Blue Gene pulls ahead in supercomputer race > > Energy Department officials said Nov. 4 that the agency's Blue Gene/L > machine developed by IBM Corp. has hit processing speeds of 70.72 teraflops > using the Linpack industry benchmark. That's almost double the speed Blue > Gene achieved in late September, when the supercomputer broke the > 2-year-old record held by NEC Computer Inc.'s Earth Simulator. > And by next year - "Blue Gene L, which will deliver between 180 teraflops and 360 teraflops, will cost between $50 million and $100 million to complete, or about $200,000 per teraflop, Seager said." Perhaps more significant is the MareNostrum blade server. "Dubbed MareNostrum, the supercomputer employs a cluster of 2,520 eServer BladeCenter JS20 systems running the Linux operating system. IBM expects it to be the first supercomputer to attain a top 10 ranking using blade server technology. IBM expects the computer's peak performance to reach 40TFLOPS (trillion floating-point operations per second). At its current configuration, the computer already reached a sustained performance of 20.53TFLOPS, with peak performance of 31.36TFLOPS, IBM said." This machine uses blade servers which can be assembled at a fraction of the cost of the specialized processors of Blue Gene. More like supercomputing for the man in the street. BillK From moulton at moulton.com Fri Nov 5 20:17:28 2004 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:17:28 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election Message-ID: <1099685848.20563.452.camel@localhost> I saw this on a newsgroup and thought I would pass it on. While I doubt anyone would agree with it in its entirety I think it expresses some ideas in a way that I have not seen in the discussion of the past few days. > From: XXXXXXXXXXXXX.com (XXX XXXXXX) > Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom > Subject: NY Times: The Day the Enlightenment Died > Date: 4 Nov 2004 07:41:41 -0800 > > I read this in today's NY Times and found it depressing but worth > sharing. I can't believe how depressed I am over this election. > > The Day the Enlightenment Went Out > By GARRY WILLS > > > Wills, Garry > > Evanston, Ill. > > This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political > strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they > could be turned out, would be the deciding factor. The success of the > plan was registered not only in the presidential results but also in > all 11 of the state votes to ban same-sex marriage. Mr. Rove > understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe > in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution. > > This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in > which William Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept > of evolution was discredited. Disillusionment with that decision led > many evangelicals to withdraw from direct engagement in politics. But > they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court > decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, > now, gay marriage. Mr. Rove felt that the appeal to this large bloc > was worth getting President Bush to endorse a constitutional amendment > banning gay marriage (though he had opposed it earlier). > > The results bring to mind a visit the Dalai Lama made to Chicago not > long ago. I was one of the people deputized to ask him questions on > the stage at the Field Museum. He met with the interrogators > beforehand and asked us to give him challenging questions, since he is > too often greeted with deference or flattery. > > The only one I could think of was: "If you could return to your > country, what would you do to change it?" He said that he would > disestablish his religion, since "America is the proper model." I > later asked him if a pluralist society were possible without the > Enlightenment. "Ah," he said. "That's the problem." He seemed to envy > America its Enlightenment heritage. > > Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently > in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened > nation? > > America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of > Enlightenment values - critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for > evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. Though the founders > differed on many things, they shared these values of what was then > modernity. They addressed "a candid world," as they wrote in the > Declaration of Independence, out of "a decent respect for the opinions > of mankind." Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when > a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. > Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or > was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11. > > The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the > fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had > experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble > those nations less than we do our putative enemies. > > Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, > religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France > or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. We find it in the Muslim > world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. Americans > wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so > single-minded, so impervious to international appeals. They fear > jihad, no matter whose zeal is being expressed. > > It is often observed that enemies come to resemble each other. We > torture the torturers, we call our God better than theirs - as one > American general put it, in words that the president has not > repudiated. > > President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, > be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism > compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. > He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest > aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. > In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and > ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and > abroad, with real respect. > > In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he > would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for > John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the > constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He > must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. > His helpers are also his keepers. > > The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to > nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too > early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment. > > > Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern > University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion." From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Nov 6 00:07:50 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 16:07:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Rephrase the "Marriage" question... In-Reply-To: <20041105193017.41915.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041106000750.47103.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > The idea of having to register ANY entity is what is > anathema. How so, if the entity is purely a government construct used to signal non-default behaviors in certain circumstances, such as ability to designate health care options (including cryonics) if the person being cared for is no longer able to? The government has to know that it has been asked not to behave in its usual manner - and if yet another different step is desired, one can sign a contract and make sure the government becomes aware of it if needed (for which registration is one of the options with the best chance of success). If a "marriage" is not supposed to alter the government's behavior towards the married couple, for instance if it is a purely religious matter and both partners will continue filing their own tax returns and have written wills et al, then don't register it. (Or for a corporate version: current law where I live says that if you want to start a private business - one which you own entirely, with no shares or board or anything like that - and it isn't of a category the government has a special reason to regulate - like restaurants (government health inspectors mostly make it unnecessary for private citizens to pay for their own inspectors) - then so long as your business's name indicates who owns it (to avoid certain classes of scams we've faced before), you can just start up and go without registration. Once you've made money, you have to report it for income taxes, but even then you don't have to report much more than that you made X amount of money through some form of self-employment.) From amara.graps at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 00:09:27 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 01:09:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] the other half Message-ID: http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ (Sorry Everybody. How can we make it up to you?) From gregburch at gregburch.net Sat Nov 6 00:56:01 2004 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:56:01 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: <1099685848.20563.452.camel@localhost> Message-ID: I've kept my mouth shut here (but certainly not elsewhere -- on my blog, for instance) since the election. I've seen that the Europeans and the Americans who voted for Bush need to vent: They're tired and scared. But I can't go on without registering that things like this article are part of the problem. It's hysterical nonsense from people who live entirely encased in a cultural bubble that includes zero contact with anyone with whom they disagree. Frankly, all the preaching about tolerance and diversity from people who live in such bubbles seems ironic at least and outright hypocritical at worst. How many times have I read and heard in the last few days that people in New York and San Francisco and Seattle and London and Brussels can't understand how America elected Bush? They can't understand because they have no intercourse with the people who voted for Bush. Their conception of huge swaths of American culture is a shallow caricature that would be funny if it wasn't so sad. I'm an atheist. I'm a libertarian. I don't suffer from a lack of literacy or even education; I know that humans evolved over a period of billions of years -- imagine that! I didn't have to vote for Bush because I live in the capital of Red State America, Houston, Texas, so I had the luxury of voting symbolically for the libertarians. But if I'd lived in Florida or Ohio, I'd have voted for Bush. My liberty to be irreligious and follow Enlightenment values has not been curtailed and, contrary to what one would think from reading the New York Times, the LA Times, watching all but one of the major American news networks or reading basically all of the press in Europe, my liberty to be irreligious is not in immediate danger. GB http://gregburch.net/burchismo.html > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Fred C. > Moulton > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 2:17 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election > > > > I saw this on a newsgroup and thought I would pass it on. While I doubt > anyone would agree with it in its entirety I think it expresses some > ideas in a way that I have not seen in the discussion of the past few > days. > > > From: XXXXXXXXXXXXX.com (XXX XXXXXX) > > Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom > > Subject: NY Times: The Day the Enlightenment Died > > Date: 4 Nov 2004 07:41:41 -0800 > > > > I read this in today's NY Times and found it depressing but worth > > sharing. I can't believe how depressed I am over this election. > > > > The Day the Enlightenment Went Out > > By GARRY WILLS > > > > > > Wills, Garry > > > > Evanston, Ill. > > > > This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political > > strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they > > could be turned out, would be the deciding factor. The success of the > > plan was registered not only in the presidential results but also in > > all 11 of the state votes to ban same-sex marriage. Mr. Rove > > understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe > > in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution. > > > > This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in > > which William Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept > > of evolution was discredited. Disillusionment with that decision led > > many evangelicals to withdraw from direct engagement in politics. But > > they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court > > decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, > > now, gay marriage. Mr. Rove felt that the appeal to this large bloc > > was worth getting President Bush to endorse a constitutional amendment > > banning gay marriage (though he had opposed it earlier). > > > > The results bring to mind a visit the Dalai Lama made to Chicago not > > long ago. I was one of the people deputized to ask him questions on > > the stage at the Field Museum. He met with the interrogators > > beforehand and asked us to give him challenging questions, since he is > > too often greeted with deference or flattery. > > > > The only one I could think of was: "If you could return to your > > country, what would you do to change it?" He said that he would > > disestablish his religion, since "America is the proper model." I > > later asked him if a pluralist society were possible without the > > Enlightenment. "Ah," he said. "That's the problem." He seemed to envy > > America its Enlightenment heritage. > > > > Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently > > in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened > > nation? > > > > America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of > > Enlightenment values - critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for > > evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. Though the founders > > differed on many things, they shared these values of what was then > > modernity. They addressed "a candid world," as they wrote in the > > Declaration of Independence, out of "a decent respect for the opinions > > of mankind." Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when > > a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. > > Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or > > was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11. > > > > The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the > > fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had > > experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble > > those nations less than we do our putative enemies. > > > > Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, > > religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France > > or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. We find it in the Muslim > > world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. Americans > > wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so > > single-minded, so impervious to international appeals. They fear > > jihad, no matter whose zeal is being expressed. > > > > It is often observed that enemies come to resemble each other. We > > torture the torturers, we call our God better than theirs - as one > > American general put it, in words that the president has not > > repudiated. > > > > President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, > > be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism > > compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. > > He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest > > aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. > > In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and > > ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and > > abroad, with real respect. > > > > In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he > > would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for > > John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the > > constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He > > must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. > > His helpers are also his keepers. > > > > The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to > > nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too > > early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment. > > > > > > Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern > > University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion." > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 01:45:09 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:15:09 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: References: <1099685848.20563.452.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <710b78fc0411051745392a46d4@mail.gmail.com> Greg, I know it's rude to ask someone to explain their vote, so mea culpa, and it's only a request, feel free to ignore it. However, if you are ok with it, could you please explain why you would vote for Bush in the circumstances you outlined below? Quite seriously, I can't understand why an extropian would make that choice, but also I am uninformed when it comes to US domestic politics, and maybe there's something I can learn from your position. In the spirit of reciprocity, I voted in the recent Aussie elections for the Australian Labor Party, in some way similar to the Democrats in the US (our equivalent of the GOP is the Coalition, made up of the Liberal and National parties, with the Libs being the major partner). Like your election, the Aussie election brought another term for the conservatives, but unlike yours, which was pretty close, ours was a total wipeout for Labor. As to why I voted the way I did, I've been unhappy with the conservatives since they gained power. I think they play to the fears and predjudices of our people, and have contributed to a cultural shift toward mean spiritedness. That's only my opinion, but that's the major part of my quibble. Another issue I do have with our government is that they strongly support the war in Iraq, which I most certainly do not, so there's another reason to go against them to my mind. On the economy, while I think our hospitals and public schools are underfunded, a lot of this is pretty minor stuff; mostly I think both parties are pretty similar there (as they are in most of the Western world these days I think). Both parties are into big spending, just in slightly different places, but the conservatives like to pretend that they are all about fiscal responsibility. So I guess as far as running the country internally, I don't see much to divide the two major parties here. If anything, Labor was more interested in talking about bigger public spending, which I didn't necessarily see as a good thing, but on the other hand the Liberals were happy to go on a major vote buying spree which amounted to the same thing. What I object to in the conservatives is that I see them as primarily responsible for what I think of as a continuing political/social lack of confidence on the part of the people of the country, which I would now call a world wide depression. It leads to support for these policies of warring overseas, closing the borders, viewing foreigners and each other with suspicion, and a generally bleak view of the state of the world. Blanket pessimism. It's the opposite to what I'd like to see as an extropian, because extropianism *requires* optimism. So, as a transhumanist and extropian, that's my reasoning for voting Labor on this side of the world. Reading back over what I wrote above, it's negative reasoning, isn't it? I voted against the conservatives, not for the "progressives". Labor these days to me feels like a party without much personality. Emlyn On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:56:01 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > I've kept my mouth shut here (but certainly not elsewhere -- on my blog, for instance) since the election. I've seen that the Europeans and the Americans who voted for Bush need to vent: They're tired and scared. But I can't go on without registering that things like this article are part of the problem. It's hysterical nonsense from people who live entirely encased in a cultural bubble that includes zero contact with anyone with whom they disagree. Frankly, all the preaching about tolerance and diversity from people who live in such bubbles seems ironic at least and outright hypocritical at worst. How many times have I read and heard in the last few days that people in New York and San Francisco and Seattle and London and Brussels can't understand how America elected Bush? They can't understand because they have no intercourse with the people who voted for Bush. Their conception of huge swaths of American culture is a shallow caricature that would be funny if it wasn! > 't so sad. > > I'm an atheist. I'm a libertarian. I don't suffer from a lack of literacy or even education; I know that humans evolved over a period of billions of years -- imagine that! I didn't have to vote for Bush because I live in the capital of Red State America, Houston, Texas, so I had the luxury of voting symbolically for the libertarians. But if I'd lived in Florida or Ohio, I'd have voted for Bush. My liberty to be irreligious and follow Enlightenment values has not been curtailed and, contrary to what one would think from reading the New York Times, the LA Times, watching all but one of the major American news networks or reading basically all of the press in Europe, my liberty to be irreligious is not in immediate danger. > > GB > http://gregburch.net/burchismo.html > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Fred C. > > Moulton > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 2:17 PM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election > > > > > > > > I saw this on a newsgroup and thought I would pass it on. While I doubt > > anyone would agree with it in its entirety I think it expresses some > > ideas in a way that I have not seen in the discussion of the past few > > days. > > > > > From: XXXXXXXXXXXXX.com (XXX XXXXXX) > > > Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.fandom > > > Subject: NY Times: The Day the Enlightenment Died > > > Date: 4 Nov 2004 07:41:41 -0800 > > > > > > I read this in today's NY Times and found it depressing but worth > > > sharing. I can't believe how depressed I am over this election. > > > > > > The Day the Enlightenment Went Out > > > By GARRY WILLS > > > > > > > > > Wills, Garry > > > > > > Evanston, Ill. > > > > > > This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political > > > strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they > > > could be turned out, would be the deciding factor. The success of the > > > plan was registered not only in the presidential results but also in > > > all 11 of the state votes to ban same-sex marriage. Mr. Rove > > > understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe > > > in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution. > > > > > > This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in > > > which William Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept > > > of evolution was discredited. Disillusionment with that decision led > > > many evangelicals to withdraw from direct engagement in politics. But > > > they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court > > > decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, > > > now, gay marriage. Mr. Rove felt that the appeal to this large bloc > > > was worth getting President Bush to endorse a constitutional amendment > > > banning gay marriage (though he had opposed it earlier). > > > > > > The results bring to mind a visit the Dalai Lama made to Chicago not > > > long ago. I was one of the people deputized to ask him questions on > > > the stage at the Field Museum. He met with the interrogators > > > beforehand and asked us to give him challenging questions, since he is > > > too often greeted with deference or flattery. > > > > > > The only one I could think of was: "If you could return to your > > > country, what would you do to change it?" He said that he would > > > disestablish his religion, since "America is the proper model." I > > > later asked him if a pluralist society were possible without the > > > Enlightenment. "Ah," he said. "That's the problem." He seemed to envy > > > America its Enlightenment heritage. > > > > > > Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently > > > in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened > > > nation? > > > > > > America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of > > > Enlightenment values - critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for > > > evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. Though the founders > > > differed on many things, they shared these values of what was then > > > modernity. They addressed "a candid world," as they wrote in the > > > Declaration of Independence, out of "a decent respect for the opinions > > > of mankind." Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when > > > a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. > > > Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or > > > was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11. > > > > > > The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the > > > fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had > > > experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble > > > those nations less than we do our putative enemies. > > > > > > Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, > > > religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France > > > or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. We find it in the Muslim > > > world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. Americans > > > wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so > > > single-minded, so impervious to international appeals. They fear > > > jihad, no matter whose zeal is being expressed. > > > > > > It is often observed that enemies come to resemble each other. We > > > torture the torturers, we call our God better than theirs - as one > > > American general put it, in words that the president has not > > > repudiated. > > > > > > President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, > > > be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism > > > compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. > > > He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest > > > aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. > > > In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and > > > ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and > > > abroad, with real respect. > > > > > > In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he > > > would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for > > > John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the > > > constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He > > > must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. > > > His helpers are also his keepers. > > > > > > The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to > > > nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too > > > early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment. > > > > > > > > > Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern > > > University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion." > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From gregburch at gregburch.net Sat Nov 6 02:20:03 2004 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:20:03 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0411051745392a46d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Emlyn > Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 7:45 PM > > Greg, I know it's rude to ask someone to explain their vote, so mea > culpa, and it's only a request, feel free to ignore it. > > However, if you are ok with it, could you please explain why you would > vote for Bush in the circumstances you outlined below? Quite > seriously, I can't understand why an extropian would make that choice, > but also I am uninformed when it comes to US domestic politics, and > maybe there's something I can learn from your position. > > In the spirit of reciprocity, I voted in the recent Aussie elections > for the Australian Labor Party, in some way similar to the Democrats > in the US (our equivalent of the GOP is the Coalition, made up of the > Liberal and National parties, with the Libs being the major partner). snip -- an explanation of your vote for Labor in the recent Australian elections. > What I object to in the conservatives is that I see them as primarily > responsible for what I think of as a continuing political/social lack > of confidence on the part of the people of the country, which I would > now call a world wide depression. It leads to support for these > policies of warring overseas, closing the borders, viewing foreigners > and each other with suspicion, and a generally bleak view of the state > of the world. Blanket pessimism. It's the opposite to what I'd like to > see as an extropian, because extropianism *requires* optimism. > > So, as a transhumanist and extropian, that's my reasoning for voting > Labor on this side of the world. Reading back over what I wrote above, > it's negative reasoning, isn't it? I voted against the conservatives, > not for the "progressives". Labor these days to me feels like a party > without much personality. Emlyn, I appreciate the sincerity of your question and I'll try to answer it as clearly and succinctly as I can. What I won't do is get into a debate; feelings are too high and this really isn't a forum for such discussions in my personal opinion. The primary positive reason I supported Bush is his administration's foreign policy. Based on the fairly in-depth study of Islam and Arab history I have made over the last three years, I believe nothing short of harsh military action on a broad geographic and temporal scale will stop the rising tide of Islamofascism and Arabic violence. I am a strong supporter of Rice, Wolfowitz and the other "neocons." I have faced sharp criticism for this -- allegations that my libertarian opposition to the "Nanny State" has given way to support for a strong "Daddy State." I reject that criticism, but I acknowledge the kernel of truth upon which it is based. I'm a minarchist who reluctantly supports state action in defense of liberal civilization. Ironically, that is what the "conservative" Republican party stands for now in America. A blogger humorously pointed out that a Kerry victory in the 2004 election would have pushed the end of the war from 2020 to 2022 -- the two years it took the Kerry Administration to figure out that, although unpopular in Europe and on the left, the only strategy short of surrender is the one being pursued by the neocons. I know this will be a shocking sentiment to many who have been posting here for the last few days. To them all I will say is, "Tell it to Theo van Gogh." I believe Western feminists should be organizing the "Susan B. Anthony Brigade" of volunteers to fight in the Middle East. The primary negative reason I opposed Kerry is what I see as the class-based and race-based divisiveness of the Democratic Party. I believe the DP promotes a "victimology" that cripples American racial, ethnic and sexual minorities. The fundamental ideology of the American Democratic Party is one based on group identity, something I reject soundly. That's it in a nutshell. Obviously, my thinking goes far beyond this but I won't engage in an extended discussion of this matter in this forum: The noise level from such a discussion would be too high for my taste. There are plenty of other fora for such discussions and if anyone is interested in dropping comments into my blog, they're free to do so; I'm not shy about expressing my views there. GB http://gregburch.net/burchismo.html From hal at finney.org Sat Nov 6 02:27:47 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:27:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election Message-ID: <20041106022747.2177A57E2A@finney.org> I agree with Greg that much of the rhetoric in response to the election is exaggerated. The fact is that the vote was 51 to 48 percent. A tiny shift would have allowed the Democrats to win. Majority vote elections amplify small differences in the vote when parties are nearly balanced in their numbers. This was not an enormous turn to the right by the U.S. It was a small change, part of a slight rightward trend in the country. In fact, it may not have been a change at all, but rather the result of a much more vigorous get-out-the-vote campaign by the Republicans, who were determined to match Democratic grass-root organizational efforts this year. I suspect that there are institutional factors which tend to push parties close to the 50-50 split in two-party systems. A party which had a much lower percentage would soften its views in order to become more appealing and start playing a role in the process. A party with a larger percentage doesn't need so many supporters and so can afford to become more ideological. Because of such factors, the American system will always tend to be around 50-50, and so slight changes in the popular opinion can produce dramatic differences in election outcomes. Democracy is an OK system of government, but it does have some major flaws as an institution. There is little motivation for the average person to vote wisely. Normally his vote makes no difference in national elections, and in the extremely remote chance that it does turn out to matter, most of the benefits of a wise vote accrue to other people than the voter. We discussed that study here a couple of weeks ago where they showed how deluded Bush supporters were about various facts relating to Iraq. That is exactly what would be expected given our propensity for self- deception and the fact that politics is a social activity. The only potentially misleading part of the study was the implication that supporters of other ideological positions don't have their own blind spots. We all tend to be deluded about politics, because there is no incentive to be correct. This is where Robin Hanson's Futarchy concept seems to have great potential, http://hanson.gmu.edu/futarchy.html . In Futarchy, people are directly rewarded for informing themselves about the facts. They can predict the future more accurately and win more money. I'd like to see us start to use a system like this in some specific policy areas. The increasing attention to betting markets in the recent election could set the stage for this next step. Hal From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Sat Nov 6 02:30:28 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 10:30:28 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0411051745392a46d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041106023030.9737BC452@vscan02.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election Greg, I know it's rude to ask someone to explain their vote, so mea culpa, and it's only a request, feel free to ignore it. However, if you are ok with it, could you please explain why you would vote for Bush in the circumstances you outlined below? Quite seriously, I can't understand why an extropian would make that choice, but also I am uninformed when it comes to US domestic politics, and maybe there's something I can learn from your position. ---------------------------- Emlyn, You havent grasped the peculiar brand of "fundamentalism" adopted by US Libertarianism. There is zero chance of Greg's vote (whether libertarian or Bush) making sense to you....and there is less than zero chance of them seeing things from a perspective of someone outside the US. They live within the prism of The Death Star and have no empathy for anyone who gets in the way of their beloved Mothership, as long as someone else is doing the dirty work which runs against their US Libertarian values. They really mean "Libertarians for America, f&^k everyone else". It's quite amazing to see the private emails I get each time I post something critical of the US Libertarians on this email list, from people who have long ago despaired of having a useful discussion with them. They still lurk, being extropian, but no longer participate. I have reached that point also, in a very short space of time. After lurking here for a year, I started posting, then realised I could not hope to discuss the issues I hope bio and nano will address without being shot to pieces by the US Libertarians. Trying to argue almost anything with a US Libertarian strikes me as being similar to trying to argue about Israeli policy with the Bush Administration ("you are anti-semetic") or the nature of God with a fundamentalist religion devotee. The US Libertarians are only here because they personally want to live forever... And on that note, I'm outa here. I will no longer post. No doubt a few "good riddances" will be in order... But, a final parting shot across the bow: when I suggested on this list that the Rapture Ready mob are a major component of Bush's constituency, I was basically ridiculed. Yeah, right....spot on, folks. Don't see any of you retracting your stubborn "blindsides" now.... Sean From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Sat Nov 6 04:00:34 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 15:00:34 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <257720-22004115520541732@M2W094.mail2web.com> References: <257720-22004115520541732@M2W094.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <418C4C62.60109@optusnet.com.au> natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > I heard on the > news this morning that he [Bush] wants to privatize social security. What do you > think about that? I understood that the social security system can be considered a huge obligation on the part of the USA government towards those citizens who have paid into it over the years. If it is privatised how will the government fund the amount that they would have to pay private companies to take on that obligation? More taxes, or renege on the debt that is currently owed and start over privately? Either way their long term habit of spending rather than investing what were suppposed to be insurance premiums is going to come back and bite them on the arse. -David From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 05:44:55 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 21:44:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Secular worship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a321705041105214427de123a@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Amara. Very well written and thought provoking. I do realize that myths-as-metaphors-for-life can be useful, instructive and comforting. In fact I'm currently reading the Iliad, which strikes me as being as relevant to human nature and affairs now as when it was written. In fact it even seems to very nicely fit the bill as transhuman mythology, given the superhuman abilities of such demigods as Achilles. On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:44:12 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > > >> Of course I'd prefer to commune at a place that left all aspects of > >> fairy-tale belief out of the fellowship. If I could find a place as > >> inviting, loving, entertaining and dedicated to meeting the needs of > >> the local and global community as they are at Agape, but felt no need > >> to encumber that sense of community with fairy tales, that would be my > >> idea of a perfect place of secular fellowship. > > Samantha: > >What kind of fairy tales exactly? How about our own fairy tales > >full of grasping for what we and our "mind-children" will become and > >what will be necessary to get there? Not fairy tales necessarily but > >good working mythology and other tools of envisioning and living into > >being. > > Zero: Maybe there is something here that is helpful: > > Mythology for Transhumans > http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/318/ > > Amara > -- > > *********************************************************************** > Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com > Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt > Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ > *********************************************************************** > "The universe: a device contrived for the perpetual astonishment > of astronomers." -- Arthur C. Clarke > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From amara.graps at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 06:17:30 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:17:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Iliad (was: Secular Worship) Message-ID: Zero: I think that the The Iliad is a good extropian book too. I don't know how to access the older database to give you a link, so I'll repost my old message here. Amara -------------November 21, 2001----------------------------------- To: extropians at extropy.org From: Amara Graps Subject: Homerian epics (was: French culture and extropianism) Daniel: Thank you very much for your feedback regarding my question about Jacqueline De Romilly and Jean-Pierre Vernant. Regarding your words about Odysseus: From: "Technotranscendence" , Thu, 15 Nov 2001: >For instance, with Odysseus, it may be true that he is different >from many other Greek heroes, BUT he is there nonetheless and in one >of their most celebrated and influential poems. Therefore, I don't >see him as less examplary. I see him, in fact, as a sort of break >with earlier heroes. The Greeks were still mired in the old, too, >but they also had this new type of hero -- a hero of the mind. >(Notably, Odysseus' strong suit -- in terms of character; it's >obvious he was no whimp and also had some gods on his side -- is his >>ability to think through just any situation.) So, I don't dismiss >him from the pantheon of Greek heroes, though he's very different >from most of the rest. I agree that he is an impressive character, and heroes _are_ important, however, he might be a little too 'clear-cut'.... As a story, _The Odyssey, is more approachable than _The Iliad_: it's a little like the adventure films we know with clear-cut characters. Odysseus struggles against external villains, seductresses, cannibals, his own mutinous men, the suitors in his home. In the process of returning home, he undergoes an 'internal pilgrimage' as well. I think that the complex character Achilles in _the Iliad_, has a large value to transhumanists because his situations are more similar to what we are now, and what we will face in the near future. Achilles' struggles are primarily reflections of his fight with the *beast within*. It's a confrontation with the tensions within human nature that lurk in us underneath our civilation's veneer. Achilles withdraws from his community, a ruinous existence, then wrestles his beast in a more ruinous way via his vengeance. The reader then see what happens when vengeance goes too far. When he becomes angry, his anger does not allow him to accept changes or shifts in attitude, and he embarks upon a murderous rampage. Yet he undergoes a startling transformation. After he is wronged and becomes angry, he withdraws from his environment, and, while alone, realizes that the entire martial system of honor is bankrupt and based on a lie. Achilles' heroism at his end is quite different than Odysseus' too: Odysseus regains his kin through the sheer strength of his spirit and the power of his genius; Achilles loses what family he had, to claim some new sense of honor well beyond a world that he wants no part of. As in most of the Greek classics, the following important ideas are presented: learning comes through effort, men are social creatures, human life is tragically short and therefore comes with obligations, character is a matter of matching words with deeds, religion is separate from and subordinate to politics, private property should be immune from government coercion, the truth only emerges through dissent and open criticism, the most dangerous animal is the beast within us, leaders ignore the will of the assembly at their peril. In the Iliad, these ideas are again presented, but more honestly than the other epic, and without apology and elaboration. Have a good Thanksgiving, and rest of December and New Years. Amara From hal at finney.org Sat Nov 6 07:06:25 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:06:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage Message-ID: <20041106070625.E205357E2A@finney.org> Saw an interesting posting today on www.dailykos.com, a well known left wing blog, endorsing the same idea that Mike Lorrey and Kevin Freels have been discussing, of getting the government out of the marriage business and letting it be a church matter. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/123023/403 Kos quotes, "Marriage should be a faith-based institution and we should turn it over to the churches. If someone doesn't want to be married in a church, then the Federal government can offer them a legal civil contract (this is a better name for it than civil union)... The Federal government could offer gays the same civil contract status as it offers straight people who want to shack up legally but without the sanction of a church," and adds, "Simple, and common sensical." I doubt that Mike Lorrey and Kos agree on much, but it's interesting that on at least this point they are on the same wavelength. Hal From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 07:12:54 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:12:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Iliad (was: Secular Worship) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a3217050411052312a840e9d@mail.gmail.com> Fascinating. Those are quite similar to thoughts I've been having as I make my way (all too slowly) through the book. Zero On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:17:30 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > Zero: > I think that the The Iliad is a good extropian book too. > I don't know how to access the older database to give > you a link, so I'll repost my old message here. > Amara > > -------------November 21, 2001----------------------------------- > > To: extropians at extropy.org > From: Amara Graps > Subject: Homerian epics (was: French culture and extropianism) > > Daniel: > > Thank you very much for your feedback regarding my question about > Jacqueline De Romilly and Jean-Pierre Vernant. > > Regarding your words about Odysseus: > > From: "Technotranscendence" , Thu, 15 Nov 2001: > >For instance, with Odysseus, it may be true that he is different > >from many other Greek heroes, BUT he is there nonetheless and in one > >of their most celebrated and influential poems. Therefore, I don't > >see him as less examplary. I see him, in fact, as a sort of break > >with earlier heroes. The Greeks were still mired in the old, too, > >but they also had this new type of hero -- a hero of the mind. > >(Notably, Odysseus' strong suit -- in terms of character; it's > >obvious he was no whimp and also had some gods on his side -- is his > >>ability to think through just any situation.) So, I don't dismiss > >him from the pantheon of Greek heroes, though he's very different > >from most of the rest. > > I agree that he is an impressive character, and heroes _are_ > important, however, he might be a little too 'clear-cut'.... > > As a story, _The Odyssey, is more approachable than _The Iliad_: > it's a little like the adventure films we know with clear-cut > characters. Odysseus struggles against external villains, > seductresses, cannibals, his own mutinous men, the suitors in his > home. In the process of returning home, he undergoes an 'internal > pilgrimage' as well. > > I think that the complex character Achilles in _the Iliad_, has a > large value to transhumanists because his situations are more > similar to what we are now, and what we will face in the near > future. Achilles' struggles are primarily reflections of his fight > with the *beast within*. It's a confrontation with the tensions > within human nature that lurk in us underneath our civilation's > veneer. Achilles withdraws from his community, a ruinous existence, > then wrestles his beast in a more ruinous way via his vengeance. The > reader then see what happens when vengeance goes too far. When he > becomes angry, his anger does not allow him to accept changes or > shifts in attitude, and he embarks upon a murderous rampage. Yet he > undergoes a startling transformation. After he is wronged and > becomes angry, he withdraws from his environment, and, while alone, > realizes that the entire martial system of honor is bankrupt and > based on a lie. Achilles' heroism at his end is quite different than > Odysseus' too: Odysseus regains his kin through the sheer strength > of his spirit and the power of his genius; Achilles loses what > family he had, to claim some new sense of honor well beyond a world > that he wants no part of. > > As in most of the Greek classics, the following important ideas are > presented: learning comes through effort, men are social creatures, > human life is tragically short and therefore comes with obligations, > character is a matter of matching words with deeds, religion is > separate from and subordinate to politics, private property should > be immune from government coercion, the truth only emerges through > dissent and open criticism, the most dangerous animal is the beast > within us, leaders ignore the will of the assembly at their peril. > In the Iliad, these ideas are again presented, but more honestly than > the other epic, and without apology and elaboration. > > Have a good Thanksgiving, and rest of December and New Years. > > Amara > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 07:35:03 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:35:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? Message-ID: <7a321705041105233524ca677@mail.gmail.com> OK, I was obviously disappointed by the election results, and I admit I may have made a fleeting and half-hearted remark or two along the way (something about loving my country a little bit less, as I recall). But according to this story on NPR this morning there are some Americans who are actually thinking of emmigrating! Yeah, Europe is nice and New Zealand is beautiful. I've never been down under, but I hear it has its draws too. But actually emmigrating from the U.S. just because a dolt is in power? That seems to be taking things a little too far. http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4145998 From moulton at moulton.com Sat Nov 6 04:42:39 2004 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 23:42:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1099716158.20563.511.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 19:56, Greg Burch wrote: >But I can't go on without registering that things like this article >are part of the problem. It's hysterical nonsense from people who >live entirely encased in a cultural bubble that includes zero contact >with anyone with whom they disagree. As I said in my original post I doubted if anyone would agree with the article in its entirety so lets look at some specific items in the article: Item: "Mr. Rove understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution." There seem to be several polls around that ask different parts of this question but part of the basis of this seems to be the 1998 Harris poll: http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=167 which shows 83% of adult Americans believe in the virgin birth. There is also the Catholic World News online article http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=8294 which refers to the work of a University of Cincinnati professor that has "theistic" evolution at 40% and pure Darwinian evolution at 10%. See also the CNN column by Nicholas D. Kristof http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/08/15/nyt.kristof/ So based on the information I have found Garry Wills was not spouting hysterical nonsense but on the contrary seems to be correct. Next item: "But they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, now, gay marriage." If you do a Google search for "+political +activism +conservative +christian +cause" In the first 20 links you get an article referring to the 30 year career of Donald E. Wildmon. http://www.theocracywatch.org/rallying_cry_times.htm And this political resource guide for the religious right http://www.peterlaitres.net/politics.htm I could provide more links but this is I think sufficient to demonstrate that the statement by Wills is not hysterical nonsense. Next item: "Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11." I could not find a poll that had exactly the same numbers as Wills sited. What I found was Oct 21, 2004 Harris Poll http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=508 which lists Bush supporters as believing: - Saddam Husein had strong links with Al Qaeda 84% - Saddam Hussein helped plan and support the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11, 2001 52% - Several of the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11 were Iraqis 40% So based on this I would say that the numbers sited by Wills are at least in the ball park and not hysterical nonsense. So on the specifics I have examined Wills does not seems to be spouting hysterical nonsense. If you wish to restate your comment to say that only part of what Garry Wills wrote was hysterical nonsense then you may do so. However if you do claim that only part of the article Wills wrote is hysterical nonsense please provide specific citations and supporting references. Fred From fauxever at sprynet.com Sat Nov 6 07:54:27 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 23:54:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? References: <7a321705041105233524ca677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01c4c3d5$d780cf50$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Zero Powers" > But according to this story on NPR this morning there are > some Americans who are actually thinking of emmigrating! > ... actually emmigrating from the U.S. just because a dolt is in power? That seems to be > taking things a little too far. > > http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4145998 Yes, exactly. And Mark Morford's column today was responding to this very issue: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/11/05/notes110504.DTL&type=printable Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 07:58:27 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:58:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: References: <1099685848.20563.452.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <470a3c5204110523586bec8dd0@mail.gmail.com> I think the keyword here is "immediate". Wait and see. G. On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:56:01 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: My liberty to be irreligious and follow Enlightenment values has not been curtailed and, contrary to what one would think from reading the New York Times, the LA Times, watching all but one of the major American news networks or reading basically all of the press in Europe, my liberty to be irreligious is not in immediate danger. From moulton at moulton.com Sat Nov 6 05:03:15 2004 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 00:03:15 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: <20041106023030.9737BC452@vscan02.westnet.com.au> References: <20041106023030.9737BC452@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <1099717395.20573.559.camel@localhost> On Fri, 2004-11-05 at 21:30, Sean Diggins wrote: ... > Emlyn, > > You havent grasped the peculiar brand of "fundamentalism" adopted by US > Libertarianism. > There is zero chance of Greg's vote (whether libertarian or Bush) making > sense to you....and there is less than zero chance of them seeing things > from a perspective of someone outside the US. Sean I think you may be painting with too broad of a brush. For example most of the folks behind www.antiwar.com are long time libertarian activists. Just on the topic of supporting Bush there are persons who call themselves libertarians with opinions ranging from: "Electing Bush is necessary for the survival of our way of life" to "Claiming to be a libertarian and supporting Bush is like claiming to be a vegetarian in the middle of eating a steak dinner" There are different subgroups of libertarians and many of these groups do not have much contact. So far outright hostility is at a minimum. Compare for example the opinions expressed by US Libertarian party and the anti-party opinions expressed on the http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LeftLibertarian/ And there is still debate by Georgists and others. It is not hard for someone to call themselves a libertarian and spout off. The more difficult task is to sort out what makes sense and what does not. Fred > They live within the prism of The Death Star and have no empathy for anyone > who gets in the way of their beloved Mothership, as long as someone else is > doing the dirty work which runs against their US Libertarian values. They > really mean "Libertarians for America, f&^k everyone else". > > It's quite amazing to see the private emails I get each time I post > something critical of the US Libertarians on this email list, from people > who have long ago despaired of having a useful discussion with them. They > still lurk, being extropian, but no longer participate. I have reached that > point also, in a very short space of time. After lurking here for a year, I > started posting, then realised I could not hope to discuss the issues I hope > bio and nano will address without being shot to pieces by the US > Libertarians. Trying to argue almost anything with a US Libertarian strikes > me as being similar to trying to argue about Israeli policy with the Bush > Administration ("you are anti-semetic") or the nature of God with a > fundamentalist religion devotee. The US Libertarians are only here because > they personally want to live forever... > > And on that note, I'm outa here. I will no longer post. No doubt a few "good > riddances" will be in order... > > But, a final parting shot across the bow: when I suggested on this list that > the Rapture Ready mob are a major component of Bush's constituency, I was > basically ridiculed. Yeah, right....spot on, folks. Don't see any of you > retracting your stubborn "blindsides" now.... > > Sean > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From amara.graps at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 08:11:13 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:11:13 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election Message-ID: Emlyn: >What I object to in the conservatives is that I see them as primarily >responsible for what I think of as a continuing political/social lack >of confidence on the part of the people of the country, which I would >now call a world wide depression. It leads to support for these >policies of warring overseas, closing the borders, viewing foreigners >and each other with suspicion, and a generally bleak view of the state >of the world. Blanket pessimism. It's the opposite to what I'd like to >see as an extropian, because extropianism *requires* optimism. (I agree) >From what you wrote above, let's consider one aspect of human optimistic endevour: NASA, which was put under the Department of Homeland Security in recent years. It's hard to make scientific work in such a environment. In general, my colleagues on this side of the Atlantic work together "as usual", the scientists I know work with each other fairly well. The only blockage I've seen and experienced is not political (at least not more than the usual), but is the low funds from their respective space agencies (ESA, ASI, DLR, CNES for example). So, therefore, when we work with each other, and exchange information, we don't need people in the corner checking documents to delete anything that is not compliant with ITAR (International Trade Regulations, i.e. US Defense Department). On the other hand, with NASA, there always is such a person or persons, and this is just a small example of what working with NASA entails. Documents, visits and face-to-face meetings at NASA centers and their contractors are full of rules, checks, prohibitions, massive delays, cancellations, suspicion, suspicion. Our NASA colleagues, and the US scientists elsewhere who work with them, are very tired of it all, but this is the new way under Department of Homeland Security, and they do their best to follow the new rules handed down from above. I've heard serious words in the last few years of people planning to jump ship and more serious words in the last few days. NASA was always bloated, slow, with a massive bureaucracy, but you could always count on the enthusiasm of the scientists to circumvent the small annoyances and do great things. I don't sense that enthusiasm very much now. In the last year, everyone watched the new focus at NASA under the direction of the Bush Administration to be "Moon and Mars," (NASA's "Vision of Exploration"... err, rename and, in practice, implement something different). What does not fit this niche is put on hold or cancelled. Think about the cosmologists. The acceleration of the expansion of the Universe is the biggest thing to discover in cosmology in many decades, and the cosmologists' funds are reduced or dropped. For space scientists, there is no longer a firewall between human space flight and space scientists, so the cost overruns from the ISS and the shuttle are experienced by the space researchers. No longer is it clear what scientific purposes are acceptable under the new "Vision." The Hubble servicing mission is affected by the reallocation of funds too. Do you think that NASA space science and astrophysics research can survive under another four years of the Bush Administration? Some don't think that it can. Amara P.S. I don't think I'm living in an insulated environment, I cross different groups of people, cultures, my close friends and family in the US, friends and colleagues scattered in the rest of the world, including in the (Middle) East. I ask a lot of questions, and I listen and observe alot with my own ears and eyes, going to the different places, when I can. My own political situation is exposed to the world governemnts: the Italian government put me through the same political procedure (fingerprinting, handprinting, palmprinting in addtion to the other papers, medical checks and so on) that they put citizens of dozens of other countries. When I complained of this to an Italian man I know who works at the European Space Agency headquarters, he said: "have you heard the expression tit-for-tat? Foreigners are routinely treated in the worst suspicious way by the US governement, so don't be surprised if other governments do the same to US citizens in response." I have no idea of it is true in Italy's case. I know I do experience a fair amount in my daily life of the effects of the Bush administration on the rest of the world. -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From amara.graps at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 08:55:36 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:55:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: the other half Message-ID: >http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ Strano.. the web site disappeared during the last ~9 hours and something completely different is in its place now. Google didn't cache it, unfortunately. I wonder if some malicious persons trashed the site. In case you missed it, the site was mostly a page of photographs -- young people holding up various signs apologizing, sometimes in colorful ways, for the outcome of the 2004 presidential election. I found it sweet and touching and funny. Amara From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua Sat Nov 6 10:25:02 2004 From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:25:02 +0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] An odd discrepancy in exit polls in touch-screen electronic voting states In-Reply-To: <7a32170504110500065c447241@mail.gmail.com> References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> From: The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy By Thom Hartmann CommonDreams.org Thusday 4 November 2004 The hot story in the Blogosphere is that the "erroneous" exit polls that showed Kerry carrying Florida and Ohio (among other states) weren't erroneous at all - it was the numbers produced by paperless voting machines that were wrong, and Kerry actually won. As more and more analysis is done of what may (or may not) be the most massive election fraud in the history of the world... Maybe Florida went for Kerry, maybe for Bush. Over time - and through the efforts of some very motivated investigative reporters - we may well find out (Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.org just filed what may be the largest Freedom of Information Act [FOIA} filing in history), and bloggers and investigative reporters are discovering an odd discrepancy in exit polls being largely accurate in paper-ballot states and oddly inaccurate in touch-screen electronic voting states. Even raw voter analyses are showing extreme oddities in touch-screen-run Florida, and eagle-eyed bloggers are finding that news organizations are retroactively altering their exit polls to coincide with what the machines ultimately said. The full text is at http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110604Z.shtml ==== And: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE http://www.legitgov.org/pressrelease_stolen_election_2004_110404.html CITIZENS FOR LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT (www.legitgov.org) Launches Investigation Into Discrepancies of 2004 'Election' Pittsburgh, PA: November 4, 2004 CONTACT: Michael Rectenwald, Ph.D. and Lori Price, clg_news at legitgov.org CLG Founder and Chair, Michael D. Rectenwald, Ph.D., calls for a thorough investigation into the discrepancies of the 2004 election. At the conclusion of its investigation, CLG may call for specified action(s) against the system that has provided for the theft of the 2000 and 2004 elections. CLG may demand prosecution of those that have laid the groundwork for the 2004 election, if such an investigation points to the conclusion that a second coup d'etat took place on November 2, 2004. (...) http://www.legitgov.org/index.html#breaking_news Ohio Stolen (blog entry, gnn.tv) 2004-11-03 16:26:30 "Greg Palast and Randi Rhodes reported today that the state of Ohio was stolen by the Republicans in election 2004. Ohio was the critical state that tipped the balance, giving the presidency to Bush. Turns out one County in Ohio, equipped with Diebold electronic voting machines, reported NEGATIVE 25,000 votes. Wha?!? That's what at least one election official in Ohio said. The votes from that County are lost. Not counted. GONE!" ================= Gennady Simferopol Crimea Ukraine From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 14:53:38 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 06:53:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: <20041105185100.39643.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041106145338.38193.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Mike, i like your posts because you are direct, unfortunately directness does not mean lack of hypocrisy, if it did we would not be human, we'd be something much more virtuous. Now, keep in mind there is a difference between an intellectually dishonest person and a hypocritical person. The latter is universal; the former is less prevalent. Stating "I'm NOT a hypocrite" is tantamount to saying, "I have never done anything wrong in my life". Mike, however integrated you are, you are still human; if we are human, we are hypocritical. This discussion makes me feel like I'm back in Sunday School, 1964. > That is just it, Al. I'm NOT a hypocrite. I am > bluntly and sometimes > rudely honest, direct, and consistent in my > philosophy, principles, and > politics. Your liberal smear may work on > republicans, but it doesn't > work on me. My integrity stands like a monument, and > it has only one > side to it. Hypocrisy is two facedness. I only have > one face. You may > not like that face, but you can't accuse it of > hypocrisy. You may hate > that face, but that only makes YOU the hypocrite. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 15:04:24 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:04:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nietzsche on Religion Incorporated In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20041105104104.029368f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041106150424.80184.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for the link, it's worth saving. BTW didn't Nietzsche once call common humanity 'fertilizer'? What is always in the back (and often up front) of my mind is Nietzsche's writing on the "will to power". When you think of how there are people in the world who would destroy the entire biosphere in a nuclear war, for the sake of pursuing power (though not necessarily power for themselves personally) it is enough to make you want to build a fallout shelter in the basement. >rehashing the sameo sameo of dusty classical > millenial mental > fertilizer which has not had time to decay enough > for the plants to use it. > Stuffy old Russell..... :< ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From megao at sasktel.net Sat Nov 6 15:14:52 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 09:14:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: the other half In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <418CEA6C.80908@sasktel.net> Amara Graps wrote: >>http://www.sorryeverybody.com/ >> >> > >Strano.. the web site disappeared during the last ~9 hours and something >completely different is in its place now. Google didn't cache it, >unfortunately. I wonder if some malicious persons trashed the site. > >In case you missed it, the site was mostly a page of photographs -- >young people holding up various signs apologizing, sometimes in colorful >ways, for the outcome of the 2004 presidential election. I found it >sweet and touching and funny. > >Amara >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > Seems like its back up , one selected picure at a time. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 6 15:36:58 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:36:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] An odd discrepancy in exit polls in touch-screen electronic voting states References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net><470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> Message-ID: <001801c4c416$74bf1160$a51e4842@kevin> Of course. Every time and electin is won and it was fairly close, someone claims fraud. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gennady Ra" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 4:25 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] An odd discrepancy in exit polls in touch-screen electronic voting states > From: > > The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy > By Thom Hartmann > CommonDreams.org > > Thusday 4 November 2004 > > The hot story in the Blogosphere is that the "erroneous" exit polls that showed Kerry carrying Florida and Ohio (among other states) weren't erroneous at all - it was the numbers produced by paperless voting machines that were wrong, and Kerry actually won. As more and more analysis is done of what may (or may not) be the most massive election fraud in the history of the world... > > Maybe Florida went for Kerry, maybe for Bush. Over time - and through the efforts of some very motivated investigative reporters - we may well find out (Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.org just filed what may be the largest Freedom of Information Act [FOIA} filing in history), and bloggers and investigative reporters are discovering an odd discrepancy in exit polls being largely accurate in paper-ballot states and oddly inaccurate in touch-screen electronic voting states. Even raw voter analyses are showing extreme oddities in touch-screen-run Florida, and eagle-eyed bloggers are finding that news organizations are retroactively altering their exit polls to coincide with what the machines ultimately said. > > The full text is at > http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110604Z.shtml > ==== > And: > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > http://www.legitgov.org/pressrelease_stolen_election_2004_110404.html > > > CITIZENS FOR LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT (www.legitgov.org) Launches Investigation Into Discrepancies of 2004 'Election' > Pittsburgh, PA: November 4, 2004 > CONTACT: Michael Rectenwald, Ph.D. and Lori Price, clg_news at legitgov.org > CLG Founder and Chair, Michael D. Rectenwald, Ph.D., calls for a thorough investigation into the discrepancies of the 2004 election. At the conclusion of its investigation, CLG may call for specified action(s) against the system that has provided for the theft of the 2000 and 2004 elections. CLG may demand prosecution of those that have laid the groundwork for the 2004 election, if such an investigation points to the conclusion that a second coup d'etat took place on November 2, 2004. > (...) > > http://www.legitgov.org/index.html#breaking_news > > > Ohio Stolen (blog entry, gnn.tv) 2004-11-03 16:26:30 "Greg Palast and > Randi Rhodes reported today that the state of Ohio was stolen by the > Republicans in election 2004. Ohio was the critical state that tipped > the balance, giving the presidency to Bush. Turns out one County in > Ohio, equipped with Diebold electronic voting machines, reported > NEGATIVE 25,000 votes. Wha?!? That's what at least one election > official in Ohio said. The votes from that County are lost. Not > counted. GONE!" > ================= > > Gennady > Simferopol Crimea Ukraine > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 15:50:48 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 16:50:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] China cooks up a genetically engineered rice storm Message-ID: <470a3c5204110607501ceb5cf2@mail.gmail.com> China, India and the Philippines are holding field trials after investing a lot of resources in genetically engineered rice. According to a Reuters report, Chinese agricultural scientists have said China - the world's top producer and consumer of rice - could release GM rice by next year, with pressure mounting on Beijing to boost domestic grain production and farmer income. But the same report also cited officials at the Philippines-based International Rice Research Institute (IRRI) as saying that the first commercial growing of GM rice crop could be at least three years away. The International Service for the Acquisition of Agri-biotech Application, on the other hand, says most of the GM rice in the research pipeline will only be available for commercial use in five to eight years. Researchers in the field of biotechnology insist the aim of GM organisms is not to create monopolies or to introduce new farming techniques, but to try to improve nutrition and health in developing countries. http://www.checkbiotech.org/root/index.cfm?fuseaction=news&doc_id=9022&start=1&control=232&page_start=1&page_nr=101&pg=1 From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Nov 6 15:54:48 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 16:54:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Biotech tide turns Message-ID: <470a3c5204110607547362fd6e@mail.gmail.com> California farmers woke up Wednesday to a possible high-tech future - and more battles ahead over genetically engineered crops. Voters in Butte, San Luis Obispo and Humboldt counties rejected bans on biotech crops, a serious setback for a national movement that wants to stop genetic engineering over safety and social concerns. Only Marin County adopted a ban in Tuesday's election. Using biotechnology, scientists can cut and paste DNA in ways not possible in nature. They can engineer plants to withstand weedkillers or to grow medicinal compounds. Proponents say genetic engineering reduces reliance on toxic chemicals and makes farming easier. "(Tuesday's results) certainly suggest that ag biotechnology is not really threatened in the United States," said Gregory Conko, director of food safety policy at the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a Libertarian-leaning think tank in Washington, D.C. http://www.checkbiotech.org/root/index.cfm?fuseaction=news&doc_id=9021&start=1&control=231&page_start=1&page_nr=101&pg=1 From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 16:03:05 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:03:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] cultural link Message-ID: <20041106160305.98631.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Piero Scaruffi has a site on many topics. What i like are his conservative (e.g. little grade inflation) music critiques. http://www.scaruffi.com ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 6 16:06:38 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 10:06:38 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage References: <20041106070625.E205357E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <002c01c4c41a$995fe950$a51e4842@kevin> Yeah, it's neat how that works. It's the same with many Libertarians. You get some agreement on both ends, dems and repubs. I don't agree with Bush on a lot of things, but we agree on a few things as well. I forget if it was Amara or Olga, but someone was trying to understand how and Extropian could vote for Bush and this is the reason. Those things that I disagree with Bush on, are largely out of his control. He may be against gay marriage, but I don;t see him dealing with the issue over the next 4 years. He may invoke God in his rhetoric, but Kerry does as well. I support stem cell research, but not the government funding of it - and I don;t see where he will be signing anything into law banning it in the next 4 years. Then there is the terrorism issue. The whole 9/11 thing started it's planning stages during the Clinton administration, so you can;'t say it is Bush's policies that cause this. Heck, remember the Iran hostages during the Carter admin? I think the terrorism issue is the single most important issue out there right now. Everything else is on th eback burner. I don;t see anything else major happening over the next 4 years, and I don;t expect any silly flag-burning amendments, anti-gay legislation, etc to be happening. So the only question I am concerned with right now as far as president is the terrorism issue. The question is whether we attack these bastards where they are, or if we sit and wait until they attack us here. As far as I know, Kerry supported the Bush stance until he ran for president. That's when he became the anti-war president. I assure you that I am anti-war, but you can;t just bury your head in the sand and pretend that these bastards are not out there wantingus to die. Nor can you prpetend you are anti-war when you really only changed your stance to get elected. One of my favorite lines from this campaign was Kerry when asked why he had talked of supporting the additional $85 billion to get flak jackets and other supplies for the troops yet voted against it, he responded "I voted for the $85 billion before I voted against it". Now what does that mean? No matter how anti-war you are, these bastards will gladly cut your head off and make a video of it. They hate me because I am American, and they hated me a long time before Bush and would continue trying to kill me if Kerry were elected. There is a right way to accomplish your goals and a wring way. The terrorists running around the world are doing it the wrong way. They are not doing it in an extropian way, so you can't oppose them in an extropian way. They have chosen a violent path, so we have no choice but to either bow down to them, or fight their way. I am truly sorry for those individuals that have died in Iraq, but it would have all been avoided if Saddam had simply went along with the UN resolutions and opened up as required by the inspectors. This was not a violation of his soverighnty either. He ruined that when he chose to attack Kuwait. Saddam acted like a criminal. He acted like he had WMDs. If he didn;t have them, which is still debateable, he sure went out of his way to act like he did have them. And if you remember, Kerry supported all of this until he became the anti-Bush president. I figure most opposition to Bush on this list is in regards to Bush's stance on the war, and on religious issues such as stem-cell research, gay marriage and abortion. If nothing will happen in the next 4 years on those issues, and if Kerry is really pro-war and lying about it, and Bush gives tax breaks to large corporation who just happen to be the same people we need to invest in new technologies, then how could someone vote for Kerry? I hope this helps those who really want to understand my POV. If someone is looking for a huge debate, IO won;t take the bait. I just know the question was asked here by someone who seemed to really want to understand, so I thought I would try to explain it in the few minutes I had.....Now it's time to go do that American thing.....shopping :-) Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: ""Hal Finney"" To: Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 1:06 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Gay Marriage > Saw an interesting posting today on www.dailykos.com, a well known left > wing blog, endorsing the same idea that Mike Lorrey and Kevin Freels have > been discussing, of getting the government out of the marriage business > and letting it be a church matter. > > http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/5/123023/403 > > Kos quotes, "Marriage should be a faith-based institution and we should > turn it over to the churches. If someone doesn't want to be married > in a church, then the Federal government can offer them a legal civil > contract (this is a better name for it than civil union)... The Federal > government could offer gays the same civil contract status as it offers > straight people who want to shack up legally but without the sanction > of a church," and adds, "Simple, and common sensical." > > I doubt that Mike Lorrey and Kos agree on much, but it's interesting > that on at least this point they are on the same wavelength. > > Hal > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 16:58:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:58:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? In-Reply-To: <7a321705041105233524ca677@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041106165810.30784.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > OK, I was obviously disappointed by the election results, and I admit > I may have made a fleeting and half-hearted remark or two along the > way (something about loving my country a little bit less, as I > recall). But according to this story on NPR this morning there are > some Americans who are actually thinking of emmigrating! > > Yeah, Europe is nice and New Zealand is beautiful. I've never been > down under, but I hear it has its draws too. But actually > emmigrating > from the U.S. just because a dolt is in power? That seems to be > taking things a little too far. > > http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4145998 Earlier this year, I heard a story about a family that moved from NH to Vermont because of the Free State Project. They didn't want to live in a Free State. So it does happen. In 2001, before I met Jason Sorens online, I was seriously considering whether to move to New Zealand or Alaska, and stocking up on equipment I'd need for homesteading in the wilderness. Living under Clinton had become that intolerable. I am entirely supportive of the idea that people should move to places where they can live in the political/cultural/economic system they are most amenable to. That is your natural right of expatriation, your right to travel, at work. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 17:07:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:07:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: <20041106145338.38193.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041106170716.15873.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Al Brooks wrote: > Mike, i like your posts because you are direct, > unfortunately directness does not mean lack of > hypocrisy, if it did we would not be human, we'd be > something much more virtuous. Now, keep in mind there > is a difference between an intellectually dishonest > person and a hypocritical person. The latter is > universal; the former is less prevalent. Stating "I'm > NOT a hypocrite" is tantamount to saying, "I have > never done anything wrong in my life". Mike, however > integrated you are, you are still human; if we are > human, we are hypocritical. > This discussion makes me feel like I'm back in Sunday > School, 1964. Sorry, I don't say one thing and do another (what hypocrisy is). Doing wrong is not hypocrisy if you believe what you did was not wrong, or if you feel that wrongness is okay. Since becoming a mature adult person, and becoming aware of my philosophical outlook, I have always (to my knowledge) done what I think is right, and I do what I say and say what I do, so long as I am not being coerced by the state or another person into doing or saying otherwise (in which case I am held harmless). That IS what integrity is. Being human does not mandate hypocriticality. You do have the ability to have integrity. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Sat Nov 6 17:10:34 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:10:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy Message-ID: <20041106171034.1550057E2A@finney.org> Al Brooks writes: > Mike, i like your posts because you are direct, unfortunately directness > does not mean lack of hypocrisy, if it did we would not be human, we'd > be something much more virtuous. Now, keep in mind there is a difference > between an intellectually dishonest person and a hypocritical person. The > latter is universal; the former is less prevalent. Stating "I'm NOT a > hypocrite" is tantamount to saying, "I have never done anything wrong > in my life". Mike, however integrated you are, you are still human; > if we are human, we are hypocritical. This discussion makes me feel > like I'm back in Sunday School, 1964. A hypocrite is someone who professes beliefs and values that he does not actually hold. So I don't know where you get the idea that claiming not to be a hypocrite means claiming never to have done wrong. I've been reading some articles on self-deception lately, though, and one of them claimed that often what looks like hypocrisy from outside may actually be self-deception. In other words, the hypocrite conveniently forgets or makes himself unaware of the fact that his actions don't match his words. Being a conscious hypocrite is uncomfortable and difficult for most people. It requires careful monitoring of one's words to make sure that true feelings don't leak out accidentally. This is stressful and requires considerable concentration and effort. Under those circumstances, it is natural for the mind to adopt the least-effort solution, which is to bury awareness of the incompatibility betweeen thought and action. In fact, this article suggested that it would be rather unusual for a hypocrite *not* to become self-deceived as a result of long-term practice of his hypocrisy. We generally condemn hypocrisy while being more forgiving of self- deception. We laugh when we read that 90% of people surveyed think they are above average at something; but we become angry when we learn that uber-moralist Bill Bennett has a gambling addiction. Yet it's possible that Bennett's moralizing was utterly sincere, and that he managed to forget or ignore his secret gambling problem when he talked about the importance of righteous behavior. Even in an extreme case, like a religious leader who solicits money for charity but spends it on his own expensive cars and clothes, he may have in his own mind a convoluted justification for how these expenditures are appropriate and will somehow help others in the long run. Self-deception is a mysterious and paradoxical phenomenon that is far more widespread than we commonly realize. This behavior pattern could go a long way towards explaining the apparent near-universality of hypocrisy. Hal From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sat Nov 6 17:12:22 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:12:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] An odd discrepancy in exit polls in touch-screen electronic voting states In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> Message-ID: <0623F703-3017-11D9-9C59-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Nov 6, 2004, at 2:25 AM, Gennady Ra wrote: > The hot story in the Blogosphere is that the "erroneous" exit > polls that showed Kerry carrying Florida and Ohio (among other states) > weren't erroneous at all - it was the numbers produced by paperless > voting machines that were wrong, and Kerry actually won. As more and > more analysis is done of what may (or may not) be the most massive > election fraud in the history of the world... Tinfoil hat nonsense and propaganda. As has been hashed out in slightly more technical forums, the polling methodology and internals on those early exit polls were badly broken. The supposed "Kerry lead" turns into a slight Bush lead when the internals are normalized, something that was pointed out by other bloggers in less than an hour of those exit polls being released. Not only were those exit polls very questionable in terms of sample population, no attempt was made to normalize the results of the skewed polling data to provide a more accurate picture. But more generally, that still doesn't explain how Bush managed to get significantly more votes than 2000 in many precincts run and controlled by the Democrat Party and where Diebold was nowhere in sight. Did the Democrats rig their own machines against themselves? Any voter fraud that went on this year clearly falls below the noise floor. It is not constructive to assume that Democrats automatically should win every election, and that if they don't it simply must be due to Republican fraud. j. andrew rogers From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 17:15:20 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:15:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] An odd discrepancy in exit polls in touch-screen electronic voting states In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> Message-ID: <20041106171520.17585.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> This may be true. However, I want to state that at the Amherst, NH polls, where I held signs for my libertarian candidate from 6 am to 1pm, there was a NYT exit pollster who I was incredibly unimpressed with. In my opinion, his results could be no more counted on than an internet poll. If pollsters in general acted like him, it is no wonder results were off (oh, and NH is a paper ballot state, btw, with widespread reports of vote fraud from people jumping the border and falsely registering). This fellow gave his poll to two sorts of people: a) people who specifically came up to him that wanted to take the poll, and b) a handpicked few persons who I observed to be overwhelmingly what I would call 'obvious liberals', based on clothing, facial hair, etc. --- Gennady Ra wrote: > From: > > The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy > By Thom Hartmann > CommonDreams.org > > Thusday 4 November 2004 > > The hot story in the Blogosphere is that the "erroneous" exit > polls that showed Kerry carrying Florida and Ohio (among other > states) weren't erroneous at all - it was the numbers produced by > paperless voting machines that were wrong, and Kerry actually won. As > more and more analysis is done of what may (or may not) be the most > massive election fraud in the history of the world... > > Maybe Florida went for Kerry, maybe for Bush. Over time - and > through the efforts of some very motivated investigative reporters - > we may well find out (Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.org just filed > what may be the largest Freedom of Information Act [FOIA} filing in > history), and bloggers and investigative reporters are discovering an > odd discrepancy in exit polls being largely accurate in paper-ballot > states and oddly inaccurate in touch-screen electronic voting states. > Even raw voter analyses are showing extreme oddities in > touch-screen-run Florida, and eagle-eyed bloggers are finding that > news organizations are retroactively altering their exit polls to > coincide with what the machines ultimately said. > > The full text is at > http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110604Z.shtml > ==== > And: > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > http://www.legitgov.org/pressrelease_stolen_election_2004_110404.html > > > CITIZENS FOR LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENT (www.legitgov.org) Launches > Investigation Into Discrepancies of 2004 'Election' > Pittsburgh, PA: November 4, 2004 > CONTACT: Michael Rectenwald, Ph.D. and Lori Price, > clg_news at legitgov.org > CLG Founder and Chair, Michael D. Rectenwald, Ph.D., calls for a > thorough investigation into the discrepancies of the 2004 election. > At the conclusion of its investigation, CLG may call for specified > action(s) against the system that has provided for the theft of the > 2000 and 2004 elections. CLG may demand prosecution of those that > have laid the groundwork for the 2004 election, if such an > investigation points to the conclusion that a second coup d'etat took > place on November 2, 2004. > (...) > > http://www.legitgov.org/index.html#breaking_news > > > Ohio Stolen (blog entry, gnn.tv) 2004-11-03 16:26:30 "Greg Palast and > Randi Rhodes reported today that the state of Ohio was stolen by the > Republicans in election 2004. Ohio was the critical state that tipped > the balance, giving the presidency to Bush. Turns out one County in > Ohio, equipped with Diebold electronic voting machines, reported > NEGATIVE 25,000 votes. Wha?!? That's what at least one election > official in Ohio said. The votes from that County are lost. Not > counted. GONE!" > ================= > > Gennady > Simferopol Crimea Ukraine > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sat Nov 6 17:32:37 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 09:32:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <418C4C62.60109@optusnet.com.au> References: <257720-22004115520541732@M2W094.mail2web.com> <418C4C62.60109@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Nov 5, 2004, at 8:00 PM, David wrote: > I understood that the social security system can be considered > a huge obligation on the part of the USA government towards those > citizens who have paid into it over the years. There are a couple problems: 1) The government and politicians like to promise things they have no means of delivering. And they are reticent to take something off the table once they've promised it. It is an odd "obligation" when one promises something one cannot possibly deliver. 2) The citizens want far more out of the system than they ever paid into it. TANSTAAFL. That the government is not exactly an efficient manager of such things means that the money runs out that much faster. So the problem with social security is really one of attitude and unrealistic expectations. People are demanding that the government make promises that can never be delivered on, and many politicians are willing to make such promises. And then there is the problem that it is completely broken in economic sense as currently implemented, and no one who has ever tried to cheat economics has won. Doing nothing guarantees failure and the longer nothing is done the more painful the change will be, but it takes a lot of political will to go against popular attitude and unrealistic expectations. Kerry was dead wrong on this issue, though it is unlikely Bush will do enough to really save the system. j. andrew rogers From jonkc at att.net Sat Nov 6 17:43:00 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:43:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] An odd discrepancy in exit polls in touch-screenelectronic voting states References: <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net><470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com><4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> <001801c4c416$74bf1160$a51e4842@kevin> Message-ID: <004a01c4c428$22884b70$7bff4d0c@hal2001> I don't think there is anything odd in the exit polls getting it wrong and predicting a big Kerry victory. Because of either mendacity or stupidity the sample the pollsters used was 59 percent female, and women tend to vote more for Kerry than Bush; for men the opposite is true. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From jonkc at att.net Sat Nov 6 18:12:04 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 13:12:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy References: <20041106145338.38193.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008d01c4c42c$292963c0$7bff4d0c@hal2001> "Al Brooks" > unfortunately directness does not > mean lack of hypocrisy With talk like that you could almost give hypocrisy a bad name. If by hypocritical you mean having beliefs that are inconsistent then yes, we are all hypocrites; but by the same token, in 1930 Godel showed that even arithmetic was hypocritical. I don't want to brag but I think most of the time most of my beliefs are usually more consistent than not. Who could ask for anything more? John K Clark jonkc at att.net From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 18:12:39 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 10:12:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: > On Nov 5, 2004, at 8:00 PM, David wrote: > > I understood that the social security system can be considered > > a huge obligation on the part of the USA government towards those > > citizens who have paid into it over the years. > > There are a couple problems: > > 1) The government and politicians like to promise things they have > no means of delivering. And they are reticent to take something off > the table once they've promised it. It is an odd "obligation" when > one promises something one cannot possibly deliver. There is absolutely NO obligation involved. Supreme Court rulings have shown that Social Security is specifically a legalized ponzi scheme, run by the government, where your contributions are only considered 'gifts', which are distributed to the current recipients. The government is under no obligation to give you any money back when you retire. They could end it right now if they wanted to and not owe anybody a cent. The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security system beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any semblance of its current form. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 6 18:40:13 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:40:13 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy References: <20041106145338.38193.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c4c42c$292963c0$7bff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <002a01c4c430$0e06af90$a51e4842@kevin> John is right here. I am often at odds with several people here, but they are generally very consistent. I would never accuse Olga, Amara, Mike, Hal, or even Samantha (whom I am very often at odds with politically) of hypocricy. Samantha and I disagree at fundamental levels, but she is still consistent, and that I can respect. Kerry on the other hand changed his position every time he was in a different crowd and I can;t respect that behavior for a president no matter what their positions. Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "John K Clark" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2004 12:12 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy > "Al Brooks" > > > unfortunately directness does not > > mean lack of hypocrisy > > With talk like that you could almost give hypocrisy a bad name. If by > hypocritical you mean having beliefs that are inconsistent then yes, we are > all hypocrites; but by the same token, in 1930 Godel showed that even > arithmetic was hypocritical. I don't want to brag but I think most of the > time most of my beliefs are usually more consistent than not. Who could ask > for anything more? > > John K Clark jonkc at att.net > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 19:02:18 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:02:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: <008d01c4c42c$292963c0$7bff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20041106190218.2959.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Well, then more's the pity! From what Mike has written in the time I've subscribed to this list, it appears he is less hypocritical than most people. Mike is to be taken seriously, he's quite informed, but I don't take his version of libertarianism seriously- i'm not an impressionable adolescent who gets excited when someone pitches an exotic religion or an unfamiliar political philosophy. On purely economic grounds libertarianism is correct, the free market is most efficient. But so what. Humans aren't generally wired for the free market; were slowly becoming more liberty-oriented, yet the expansion of liberty is moving at a snail's pace compared to a human lifetime as we have known it. >In 1930 Godel showed that even > arithmetic was hypocritical. ===== Nixon in '08 -?he's tanned rested and ready __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 6 19:05:17 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:05:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:12 AM 11/6/2004 -0800, Mike wrote: >The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is >that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security system >beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any semblance of its >current form. As usual, I must be missing something here. If `social security' is shorthand for collective funding of pensions for the ill, the incapacitated and those made feeble by old-age, plus collective funding of some or all medical expenses, then `practical immortality' largely does away with the need for such a system. It could increase the need for spending on continuing education, say, assuming any jobs remain for humans, and that any humans remain in the first place. But I can't see why keeping everyone healthy and youthful would `bankrupt the social security system'. On the contrary, I think this is one of the great benefits of any negligible senescence treatment, and a major motive for governments to invest heavily in its development *before* the shit hits the fan. Damien Broderick From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Nov 6 19:23:39 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:23:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: IIUC, social security is supposed to start paying out at a certain age, no matter if you're healthy, sick, employed, retired, etc. Therefore, unless the age to start payouts is radically changed, social security will go bust very shortly after a large number of folks stay alive (thus collecting) longer than expected. In fact, I think this is already a good part of the problem. Note that congress has already been known to change the age at which one can begin to receive benefits... Regards, MB On Sat, 6 Nov 2004, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:12 AM 11/6/2004 -0800, Mike wrote: > > >The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is > >that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security system > >beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any semblance of its > >current form. > > As usual, I must be missing something here. If `social security' is > shorthand for collective funding of pensions for the ill, the incapacitated > and those made feeble by old-age, plus collective funding of some or all > medical expenses, then `practical immortality' largely does away with the > need for such a system. It could increase the need for spending on > continuing education, say, assuming any jobs remain for humans, and that > any humans remain in the first place. But I can't see why keeping everyone > healthy and youthful would `bankrupt the social security system'. On the > contrary, I think this is one of the great benefits of any negligible > senescence treatment, and a major motive for governments to invest heavily > in its development *before* the shit hits the fan. > > Damien Broderick > From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sat Nov 6 19:24:26 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:24:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <78CC25C6-3029-11D9-9C59-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Nov 6, 2004, at 11:05 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: > If `social security' is shorthand for collective funding of pensions > for the ill, the incapacitated and those made feeble by old-age, plus > collective funding of some or all medical expenses, then `practical > immortality' largely does away with the need for such a system. Unfortunately, "social security" is a pension for anyone over a fixed age. Problematic, since it is funded by taxes and a greater and greater percentage of the population qualifies for longer and longer periods as life span increases. Most of the economic problem is in this definition. We are rapidly approaching the point where people receive the pension for more years than they worked to pay into it. To put it another way, imagine if everyone in the population was put on the dole for a third of their life, and that the fraction of their life the average person was on the dole was increasing every year. It is a very serious problem, economically. j. andrew rogers From reason at longevitymeme.org Sat Nov 6 19:31:11 2004 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:31:11 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: --> Damien Broderick > At 10:12 AM 11/6/2004 -0800, Mike wrote: > > >The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is > >that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security system > >beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any semblance of its > >current form. > > As usual, I must be missing something here. If `social security' is > shorthand for collective funding of pensions for the ill, the > incapacitated > and those made feeble by old-age, plus collective funding of some or all > medical expenses, then `practical immortality' largely does away with the > need for such a system. It could increase the need for spending on > continuing education, say, assuming any jobs remain for humans, and that > any humans remain in the first place. But I can't see why keeping > everyone > healthy and youthful would `bankrupt the social security system'. On the > contrary, I think this is one of the great benefits of any negligible > senescence treatment, and a major motive for governments to > invest heavily in its development *before* the shit hits the fan. In a moderately sane system (libertarian ethics of wealth transfer to one side for the moment - personally I see insurance and savings as perfectly adequate the the task at hand in the absence of a medical and fiscal commons and suppression of freedom in these matters), where payments are keyed to level of disability, then yes, your points above are valid. Most current systems key payments to a given chronological age, however. Human nature makes it a fight to take an entitlement away from those entitled, whether they need (slippery word) it or not and regardless of long term damage to themselves and others. See: http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000088.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000103.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000151.php http://www.fightaging.org/archives/000057.php Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 19:33:18 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 11:33:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] link In-Reply-To: <20041106192308.7949.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041106193318.10270.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> scrolling about 7/8 down, this article discusses constraints on "pure" libertarianism. There's also a previous section on self deception. http://www.nationalreview.com/22dec97/mcginnis122297.html ===== headline: "Beheadings On Rise Around The World" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 6 19:43:24 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 13:43:24 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106134058.01a12480@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 02:23 PM 11/6/2004 -0500, MB wrote: >IIUC, social security is supposed to start paying out at a certain >age, no matter if you're healthy, sick, employed, retired, etc. >Therefore, unless the age to start payouts is radically changed As they surely will be, if the healthy old are plainly able to work, and eager to do so. It's not a natural law like the speed of light. >congress has already been known to change the age at which one can >begin to receivebenefits... Exactly. It's been creeping upward, and rightly so. Damien Broderick From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 6 20:06:46 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:06:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Delusions of Hypocrisy In-Reply-To: <008d01c4c42c$292963c0$7bff4d0c@hal2001> References: <20041106145338.38193.qmail@web51610.mail.yahoo.com> <008d01c4c42c$292963c0$7bff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041106120238.02948400@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Sorry. Inconsistency, Incompleteness and Hypocrisy are separate and definite terms. The world of human discourse is Inconsistent, permitting contradictory statements. Hypocrisy is about an inconsistency between what one says to others and one's personal beliefs. There is also the implication that being hupocritical proides some gain to the uttereer, sliding into the world of spin and deception. This is human motive, not a part of formal mathematical systems. At 10:12 AM 11/6/2004, you wrote: >"Al Brooks" > >>unfortunately directness does not >>mean lack of hypocrisy > >With talk like that you could almost give hypocrisy a bad name. If by >hypocritical you mean having beliefs that are inconsistent then yes, we are >all hypocrites; but by the same token, in 1930 Godel showed that even >arithmetic was hypocritical. I don't want to brag but I think most of the >time most of my beliefs are usually more consistent than not. Who could ask >for anything more? > >John K Clark jonkc at att.net > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 6 20:09:38 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:09:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041106120732.029506b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Remember that practical immortality will ensure that one will be able and willing to provide one's own means of income, and that the nanotechnical changes may well make most physical essentials of life negiblibly cheap. So SSI will vanish, a kind of Reverse Marxism if you will.... >The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is >that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security system >beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any semblance of its >current form. > >===== >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From hibbert at mydruthers.com Sat Nov 6 20:07:02 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 12:07:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] longevity and social security (was Extropian Scorecard) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <418D2EE6.1010303@mydruthers.com> > At 10:12 AM 11/6/2004 -0800, Mike wrote: >> The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is >> that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security >> system beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any >> semblance of its current form. And Damien replied: > As usual, I must be missing something here. If `social security' is > shorthand for collective funding of pensions for the ill, the > incapacitated and those made feeble by old-age, plus collective > funding of some or all medical expenses, then `practical immortality' > largely does away with the need for such a system. Is it possible that that's the nature of social security in Australia? In the US, Social Security is an entitlement for older people. Doesn't matter how much money they have, whether they are employed or not, how fit or ill they are. It would be wonderful if I could believe that a small thing like increased longevity and improved health would cause the rules for Social Security to change, but the AARP (the old-folks lobby here) is one of the strongest in Washington, and they don't see any reason to allow any reductions in payments. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 6 19:57:30 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 11:57:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nietzsche on Religion Incorporated In-Reply-To: <20041106150424.80184.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20041105104104.029368f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20041106150424.80184.qmail@web51602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041106115519.02942550@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Yaah, but what I REALLY want is that my cryonics dewar be in an old missile silo or a deep underground air raid shelter someplace nice like Switzerland..... And for Nixon, don't forget embalmed.... At 07:04 AM 11/6/2004, you wrote: >Thanks for the link, it's worth saving. BTW didn't >Nietzsche once call common humanity 'fertilizer'? >What is always in the back (and often up front) of my >mind is Nietzsche's writing on the "will to power". >When you think of how there are people in the world >who would destroy the entire biosphere in a nuclear >war, for the sake of pursuing power (though not >necessarily power for themselves personally) it is >enough to make you want to build a fallout shelter in >the basement. > > > >rehashing the sameo sameo of dusty classical > > millenial mental > > fertilizer which has not had time to decay enough > > for the plants to use it. > > Stuffy old Russell..... :< > > >===== >Nixon in '08 - he's tanned rested and ready > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sat Nov 6 20:13:36 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 12:13:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106134058.01a12480@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106134058.01a12480@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <5792A32C-3030-11D9-9C59-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Nov 6, 2004, at 11:43 AM, Damien Broderick wrote: >> congress has already been known to change the age at which one can >> begin to receivebenefits... > > Exactly. It's been creeping upward, and rightly so. Not fast enough. The payroll tax that covers this is already around 15%, and that is independent of the normal income tax people pay on wages. And the Social Security tax as a percentage of income has been steadily increasing over the years to cover the increasing shortfalls. To keep this solvent, the minimum age does not need to be creeping upward, it needs to leap up to something like 75-78, and creep upward from there at a good pace. Otherwise, even with the upward creep, the social security tax will have to move into the 20-30% range just to keep it solvent. The problem is that no one wants to give up any social security benefits or increase the age they get theirs, except maybe younger people because they already know they won't be getting any. This isn't a problem for people already at retirement age, but it is economically devastating for younger people. The cumulative tax load keeps increasing to cover current entitlements such that younger generations find it increasingly difficult to accumulate savings. At the same time, the system will not be solvent when they get to their nominal retirement age. In essence, the current and soon-to-be retired generations are double dipping and leaving the younger generations with no social security and limited means to save for retirement on their own. And younger people, especially Gen-X and younger, are keenly aware of this situation. If it is not aggressively dealt with soon, this could turn into a kind of ugly inter-generational warfare thing. Older generations do not want to stop the gravy train and do everything politically possible to actually increase it where they can, and younger generations know they are being very badly screwed on this. j. andrew rogers From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Nov 6 20:31:41 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 14:31:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] longevity and social security (was Extropian Scorecard) In-Reply-To: <418D2EE6.1010303@mydruthers.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <418D2EE6.1010303@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106141804.01c5c450@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:07 PM 11/6/2004 -0800, Chris wrote: >Is it possible that that's the nature of social security in Australia? Yes. `The Australian retirement income system still differs radically from that in most other countries, in relying heavily on a means-tested income maintenance system, rather than on social insurance.' http://www.natsem.canberra.edu.au/pubs/cp99/1999_006/cp1999_006.html >In the US, Social Security is an entitlement for older people. Doesn't >matter how much money they have, whether they are employed or not, how fit >or ill they are. I guess this had never fully registered with me (I understand that a lot of well-heeled Americans regard it as beneath their dignity to accept the pension). But I did notice that the pension entitlement age has been creeping upward in the USA, Australia and elsewhere, although meeting resistance. `A few countries, such as Sweden, have taken early steps to cover the cost of health care and retirement for their aging population. They have retooled retirement plans, tying benefits to contributions, raised retirement ages... In Italy, for example, people can retire at 57 and collect full benefits, if they have worked 35 years. The Italian government is pushing to raise the retirement age but faces opposition from unions.... in the 1980s, when the U.K. linked benefits to inflation, rather than to wage growth. The overhaul, carried out under Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher, also gradually raised the age at which women could get pensions to 65 by 2010. The nation had already done that for men.' (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/retirement/2004-10-04-debt_x.htm ) Do note that Mike Lorrey and I were not talking about small increments in sickly life extension. The topic was *practical immortality*, or, more realistically, negligible senescence, perhaps with rejuvenation. This is not likely any day soon, and maybe the US Social Security system will have to adjust its terms of operation drastically before negligible senescence starts to kick in (if it ever does). Damien Broderick From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sat Nov 6 20:48:18 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 15:48:18 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] longevity and social security (was Extropian Scorecard) In-Reply-To: <418D2EE6.1010303@mydruthers.com> References: <20041106181239.25721.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <418D2EE6.1010303@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: Sigh. Of course people want to get out at least what they put in. After all there was/is this implication that it's "a trust fund" and "an insurance" - which it plainly is NOT. :C I have not joined AARP because I cannot agree with their agenda... which seems often to be "take take take, we deserve it" at the expense of any and every one else. Geez. Save your pennies, folks, you're gonna need 'em. Regards, MB On Sat, 6 Nov 2004, Chris Hibbert wrote: > In the US, Social Security is an entitlement for older people. Doesn't > matter how much money they have, whether they are employed or not, how > fit or ill they are. It would be wonderful if I could believe that a > small thing like increased longevity and improved health would cause the > rules for Social Security to change, but the AARP (the old-folks lobby > here) is one of the strongest in Washington, and they don't see any > reason to allow any reductions in payments. > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 22:56:59 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 14:56:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041106225659.77565.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > But I can't see why keeping everyone healthy and youthful would > `bankrupt the social security system'. On the > contrary, I think this is one of the great benefits of any negligible > senescence treatment, and a major motive for governments to invest > heavily in its development *before* the shit hits the fan. You are extremely optimistic to think that a government is going to be that smart and will actually implement such an optimistic solution. No, they will find that people will be living to 120 with ease, you will have three retired people for every working person. The word 'taxpayer' will become synonymous with 'slave' in future society and will be looked down on ("I remember when I was a tax payer, worst 40 years of my life.") ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Nov 6 23:03:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 15:03:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106134058.01a12480@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041106230351.72025.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 02:23 PM 11/6/2004 -0500, MB wrote: > > >congress has already been known to change the age at which one can > >begin to receivebenefits... > > Exactly. It's been creeping upward, and rightly so. Not fast enough. When the system was instituted, the average life expectancy was 62 while full vestment was 65. Today life expectancy is in the upper 70's, and even Clintons slight incrementally stepped revision of retirement age upward to 67 is not keeping up with the times. Today's retirement age should be 70 at least, and going up one year per 5 years until practical immortality is acheived, then 1 year per 2 years thereafter. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From extropy at unreasonable.com Sun Nov 7 04:30:39 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2004 23:30:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fall party Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041106232018.14895b58@unreasonable.com> Just enough time to sneak in a party between electoral furor and Thanksgiving. If you are going to be in the Boston area, you're welcome to attend. There's crash-space here, if you need it. You may be able to get a ride from NYC or other parts south; use the exi-east list to coordinate. If you're not around but coming to town in the future, let us know. We can usually lure a quorum of Bostropians. Also, I expect another in late winter; once a quarter seems about right. My house. Hudson, New Hampshire. A couple miles from the MA border and the Nashua malls. Roughly 20 minutes north of Rt. 128. Next Saturday, November 13. 2 PM until the last person not me leaves. OK to arrive late if you have other commitments; most everyone will still be here. (If the 20th is better, let me know. I've moved the date other times to maximize who can attend.) Anyone on this list is specifically invited. If you have someone else in mind, run it by me. It will probably be okay. Additionally, I will invite a few friends-of-extropy, such as sf writer, nano, LP, MIT, Alcor types. Bring to augment existing: food, drink; musical instruments; interesting stuff to show people. We'll order Chinese food at some point. RSVP to me and the exi-east list. -- David Lubkin. lubkin at unreasonable.com From brentn at freeshell.org Sun Nov 7 05:30:31 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 00:30:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041106225659.77565.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (11/6/04 14:56) Mike Lorrey wrote: >You are extremely optimistic to think that a government is going to be >that smart and will actually implement such an optimistic solution. No, >they will find that people will be living to 120 with ease, you will >have three retired people for every working person. The word 'taxpayer' >will become synonymous with 'slave' in future society and will be >looked down on ("I remember when I was a tax payer, worst 40 years of >my life.") I think the real issue here is the concept of "young and healthy" folks in their 90's-100's. We live in a society where geriatric health issues begin cropping up in the late 50's - pushing biological youth out to twice that age would yield an incredible shift in culture. Its not inconceivable that a senescence treatment that kept someone youthful right up until their death would entirely remove the pressure for retirement welfare. Just a thought. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From zero.powers at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 06:16:14 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 22:16:14 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? In-Reply-To: <20041106165810.30784.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7a321705041105233524ca677@mail.gmail.com> <20041106165810.30784.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7a321705041106221634b4c1aa@mail.gmail.com> Mike I'm curious. What was it exactly that you found to be so intolerable about living in the U.S. during Clinton's presidency that made you consider emmigration? Zero On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 08:58:10 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > --- Zero Powers wrote: > > > OK, I was obviously disappointed by the election results, and I admit > > I may have made a fleeting and half-hearted remark or two along the > > way (something about loving my country a little bit less, as I > > recall). But according to this story on NPR this morning there are > > some Americans who are actually thinking of emmigrating! > > > > Yeah, Europe is nice and New Zealand is beautiful. I've never been > > down under, but I hear it has its draws too. But actually > > emmigrating > > from the U.S. just because a dolt is in power? That seems to be > > taking things a little too far. > > > > http://www.npr.org/rundowns/segment.php?wfId=4145998 > > Earlier this year, I heard a story about a family that moved from NH to > Vermont because of the Free State Project. They didn't want to live in > a Free State. > > So it does happen. In 2001, before I met Jason Sorens online, I was > seriously considering whether to move to New Zealand or Alaska, and > stocking up on equipment I'd need for homesteading in the wilderness. > Living under Clinton had become that intolerable. > > I am entirely supportive of the idea that people should move to places > where they can live in the political/cultural/economic system they are > most amenable to. That is your natural right of expatriation, your > right to travel, at work. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com > > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 14:36:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 06:36:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? In-Reply-To: <7a321705041106221634b4c1aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041107143658.77486.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > Mike > > I'm curious. What was it exactly that you found to be so intolerable > about living in the U.S. during Clinton's presidency that made you > consider emmigration? That congressmonsters like Henry Waxman wanted to pass a law declaring me a 'threat to national security' for owning a .50 caliber rifle (a muzzleloader deer rifle, in fact, but in violation of his law if it had passed). That people like Waxman, Feinstein, Schumer, Lautenberg, Kennedy, Kerry, et al wanted people like me (i.e. gun owners generally, and machine gun owners specifically) arrested, reeducated, and have our property confiscated and destroyed. That people like Bill and Hillary Clinton, Al and Tipper Gore, Janet Reno, and others in the highest seats of government, agreed with them. That they wanted, and tried, to institute taxes of $200 on every bullet sold, ban semi-automatic firearms, particularly handguns, nationwide, institute 'gun free zones' so broad that a law abiding person could not avoid breaking the law multiple times in their normal course of driving around their own community in an average day. That they thorougly approved of the use of SWAT team tactics in invading homes based on the flimsiest of evidence (testimony of drug dealers looking for a deal and inventing addresses) shooting the occupants dead, and declaiming any liability or responsibility for the screw up. That they approved of taking a child from an American home, whose mother died so he could live free, and shipping him back into slavery in one of the most despotic nations on the planet. That they colluded to nationalize the entire health care system of this nation. That they instituted curricula in the public schools programming children with lies about environmental issues, American history, the US Constitution, the costs vs. benefits of technology, communist infiltration, among a host of other areas of propaganda. I was a bit heartened by Bush getting elected in 2000. He ranked as the second most libertarian candidate on the ballot, after Harry Browne. Ashcroft's announcement that the 2nd amendment was an individual right helped, though his insistence that the words "shall not be infringed" have no legal meaning in refusing to reject, nonenforce, or seek repeal of the 20,000 gun control laws on the books was discouraging. I didn't think, though, that Bush could accomplish a whole lot. The left only needed a patsy to off him with a gun to screw everything up if he actually made progress (like they did with Reagan), and of course, 9.11 happened. I think Bush is now distinctly aware of the threat posed not only by the islamofascist movement (as Greg Burch spoke of yesterday), but the international radical left, led by the 5th Communist International, which organized out of the ashes of the Soviet Union and eastern europe. It is my contention that the 5th, along with the Chinese, are using the islamofascists to blunt the strength and competetiveness of the US leading up to some attempt by China to retake Taiwan some time in the next decade, if not the next four years, coupled with attempts at new communist revolutions in a number of nations where opposition to 'globalization' is highest. The multiplication of threats and fronts is a definite strategy which should result in at least some victories for the left. The international left was counting on a passive Kerry in office, who would not come to the aid of allies, and would work to weaken American defenses and resolve ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 7 17:45:56 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 11:45:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? In-Reply-To: <20041107143658.77486.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <7a321705041106221634b4c1aa@mail.gmail.com> <20041107143658.77486.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107114003.01a521e8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 06:36 AM 11/7/2004 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >I didn't think, though, that Bush could accomplish a whole lot. The >left only needed a patsy to off him with a gun to screw everything up >if he actually made progress (like they did with Reagan), and of >course, 9.11 happened... > >It is my contention that the 5th, along with the Chinese, are >using the islamofascists to blunt the strength and competetiveness of >the US ... > >The international left was counting on a passive Kerry in office, who >would not come to the aid of allies, and would work to weaken American >defenses and resolve This analysis does not go far enough, however, since it omits the key role of the reptiloids and the International Lemurian Conspiracy in their insidious schemes with the feminazis. Damien Broderick From sjvans at ameritech.net Sun Nov 7 18:00:54 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:00:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? In-Reply-To: <20041107143658.77486.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041107180054.18104.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > owning a .50 > caliber rifle *********** > i.e. gun owners > generally, and > machine gun owners specifically) arrested, *********** > taxes of > $200 on every bullet > sold, ban semi-automatic firearms, particularly > handguns, nationwide, > institute 'gun free zones' *********** > That they thorougly approved of the use of SWAT team > tactics in *********** > shipping him > back into slavery *********** >colluded to nationalize the entire health care system >of this nation. *********** > programming > children with lies about environmental issues, > American history, the US > Constitution, the costs vs. benefits of technology, Just out of curiosity, just where could you possibly emmigrate that would not be the same on these issues or likely worse? Or was this to just be a futile gesture of disapproval? At least there is some logic to lefties wanting to go to Canada, since it does seem more in line with what they want. I'm actually serious. Did you find a place that addressed your concerns (I share most of them)? I'd really like to know. There are other reasons I *don't* want to emmigrate, but if such a place existed I'd sure want to visit. Hmmmm, maybe a vacation home? steve From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 7 18:15:06 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 12:15:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? In-Reply-To: <20041107180054.18104.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041107143658.77486.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> <20041107180054.18104.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107121357.01cbc640@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:00 AM 11/7/2004 -0800, Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: >--- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > owning a .50 > > caliber rifle > >*********** > > > i.e. gun owners > > generally, and > > machine gun owners specifically) arrested, > >*********** > > > taxes of > > $200 on every bullet > > sold, ban semi-automatic firearms, particularly > > handguns, nationwide, > > institute 'gun free zones' > >*********** > > > That they thorougly approved of the use of SWAT team > > tactics in > >*********** > > > shipping him > > back into slavery > >*********** > > >colluded to nationalize the entire health care system > >of this nation. > >*********** > > > programming > > children with lies about environmental issues, > > American history, the US > > Constitution, the costs vs. benefits of technology, > >Just out of curiosity, just where could you possibly >emmigrate that would not be the same on these issues >or likely worse? Somalia's good. Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 18:24:43 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 18:24:43 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fleeing Bush's America?!? In-Reply-To: <20041107180054.18104.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041107143658.77486.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> <20041107180054.18104.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Nov 2004 10:00:54 -0800 (PST), Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > Just out of curiosity, just where could you possibly > emmigrate that would not be the same on these issues > or likely worse? Or was this to just be a futile > gesture of disapproval? At least there is some logic > to lefties wanting to go to Canada, since it does seem > more in line with what they want. > Well it is certainly not England. We are not even allowed to have a big stick as a weapon. And even just bad-mouthing someone can get you arrested. (Depending on exactly which words you used). Teachers are not allowed to touch pupils if they want to restrain them when they are behaving badly. And they definitely don't touch them in a friendly manner in case they are accused of inappropriate touching (implying paedophile tendencies). You are not permitted to chase youths that cause damage to your garden or car. All you can do is ask them to stop it, or call the police (who might well not bother to turn up as it is not serious enough). If you strike them to chase them away, you are the one who will be arrested for causing actual bodily harm. This is turning in to a rant. I'd better stop it now. :) BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 18:31:31 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:31:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aubrey De Grey On A Cure For Aging Message-ID: <470a3c520411071031f6924de@mail.gmail.com> Via Longevity meme: From the Life Extension Foundation News: "Aubrey de Grey reckons 'we have a 50-50 chance of developing a human rejuvenation therapy that works.' His timetable calls for 10 years to prove the scheme works for mice, and another five years to apply the techniques to humans. From then on, 'radical life extension' will mean 'the indefinite postponement of aging.'" On the other side of the coin: "Olshansky believes it is misguided to regard aging as a 'disease' that can be 'fixed.' Instead, he sees it as the inevitable result of irreparable cellular damage that is a byproduct of living." Olshansky's views are widely regarded as indefensible - some cellular damage can already be repaired, and the research required to repair the rest is not a mystery. http://www.longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id=1301 From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Nov 7 18:33:53 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 10:33:53 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Creationism in Science Class -- What an opportunity! Message-ID: <418E6A91.2040303@jefallbright.net> An item in the LA Times today reports the following: Creationism in Science Class Angers Educators GRANTSBURG, Wis. ? The city's school board has revised its science curriculum to allow the teaching of creationism, prompting an outcry from more than 300 educators who urged that the decision be reversed. School board members decided that a state law governing the teaching of evolution was too restrictive. The science curriculum "should not be totally inclusive of just one scientific theory," said Joni Burgin, superintendent of the district of 1,000 students in northwest Wisconsin. As I read this I thought, "Here we go, further erosion of scientific teaching in our schools. Maybe gaining momentum with the recent political gains of the religious right." And then with growing realization, "What an opportunity!" What an opportunity to stimulate discussion and rational thinking via comparison in the classroom of evolutionary theory and creationist thinking! Those of us who are passionate about opportunities for open discussion of rational thinking and a scientific approach to knowledge should welcome this whole-heartedly and hope that it continues to spread widely and long enough to be effective. Why is this a good thing? * Greater awareness naturally tends to greater rationality. * Greater awareness among wider populations tends to accelerate the process of increasing rationality. It's natural selection, part of the evolutionary process at question here. Ironic, isn't it? Let's promote it, and let it grow. I'm not so naive as to disregard the concern of these teachers and administrators that this looks like a political step backward in the contest between science and fundamentalism. But in the bigger picture, it's a pragmatic plus. As to the concern expressed by teachers that this will increase confusion among some of the students, I hope they can see that true teaching embraces confusion as one of the early steps toward greater understanding. To withhold potentially confusing information in the process of education is to shirk one's duty as an educator, and to play the game of transmitting only the revealed truth of one side or the other. I'm also aware that many teachers suffer under limitations of time and resources and feel that this is just one more imposition on their time by an administration that doesn't understand their needs. But for those inspired teachers who look beyond their lesson plans and see their mission as one of planting seeds of knowledge to grow and flourish in the minds of our children, this is the time to perform a masterful judo move and direct the oncoming momentum in a very desirable direction. - Jef http://www.jefallbright.net/node/view/2921 --------------------------------------------------------------- Creationism in Science Class Angers Educators GRANTSBURG, Wis. ? The city's school board has revised its science curriculum to allow the teaching of creationism, prompting an outcry from more than 300 educators who urged that the decision be reversed. School board members decided that a state law governing the teaching of evolution was too restrictive. The science curriculum "should not be totally inclusive of just one scientific theory," said Joni Burgin, superintendent of the district of 1,000 students in northwest Wisconsin. Last month, when the board examined its science curriculum, language was added calling for "various models/theories" of origin to be incorporated. The decision provoked more than 300 biology and religious studies faculty members to write a letter last week urging the board to reverse the policy. It follows a letter from 43 deans at Wisconsin public universities. "Insisting that teachers teach alternative theories of origin in biology classes takes time away from real learning, confuses some students and is a misuse of limited class time and public funds," said Don Waller, a botanist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Wisconsin law mandates that evolution be taught, but school districts are free to create their own curricular standards, said Joe Donovan of the state Department of Public Instruction. There have been scattered efforts for other boards to adopt similar measures. Last month the Dover Area School Board in Pennsylvania voted to require the teaching of alternative theories to evolution, including "intelligent design" ? the idea that life is too complex to have developed without a creator. In 1999, the state education board in Kansas deleted most references to evolution. The decision was reversed in 2001. In March, the Ohio Board of Education narrowly approved a lesson plan that some critics contended opens the door to teaching creationism. From scerir at libero.it Sun Nov 7 18:59:39 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 19:59:39 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] USAF & PQT References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041105160023.01ab0760@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <005101c4c4fb$ef6781f0$deb61b97@administxl09yj> PQT = Psychic Quantum Teleportation (of course) AIR FORCE RESEARCH LABORATORY AIR FORCE MATERIEL COMMAND EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, CA 'Teleportation Physics Study' http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf (long 'review' paper, about 88 pages) by Eric W. Davis (Warp Drive Metrics, Las Vegas) http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20041106/living/28378.shtml (popularization) :s) "According to David Hume causality is based on nothing more than the observed constant conjunction of two or more kinds of events, say A and B. It is a mere habit we have to call the earlier of the occurrences, say A, the cause, and the later, B, the effect; no relation of necessity, nor even of likelihood, of a B's succeeding an A in the future can be deduced.' - D. Atkinson 'We would like to think of teleportation as the transmission of quantum information from A to B. If we accept the intuitively appealing tenet that a transfer of information from sender to receiver must always be mediated by a channel connecting the two participants, teleportation appears paradoxical: If only two classical bits were sent, how did the full quantum information pass from A to B? Looking at the standard space-time diagram of the teleportation process, we see that there is indeed a second (V-shaped) path connecting A to B, which is defined by the two world lines of the distributed EPR particle pair. This leads to an intriguing interpretation (first proposed by Bennett soon after the discovery of teleportation): In addition to the two bits, the remaining quantum information must have been propagated backward in time from A to the EPR source and thence forward in time to B. Indeed, if we insist that information transmission requires a physical channel, there appears to be no other possible interpretation of the teleportation process! It is remarkable that this interpretation is entirely consistent: The principles of quantum measurement theory imply that the information sent backward in time is random and independent of the teleported state, so long as the two classical bits remain unknown. Hence, the well-known classical causal paradoxes of backward-in-time information propagation are neatly circumvented. This analysis, inspired by our informational point of view, also reveals a new significance for entanglement in quantum theory (beyond the traditional issues of nonlocal correlations of measurement outcomes): Entanglement can be viewed as providing a channel for the transmission of quantum information.' - R. Jozsa From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Nov 7 19:11:55 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:11:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <20041105165332.19656.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002201c4c4fd$a634baa0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Mike Lorrey" > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > You know, I was thinking about this very thing today ... this "great > > divide" that is pulling Americans apart is about freedom and control. > > > Loosely speaking (yet seriously speaking) Republicans in office today > > want *control* over people, and Democracts want more *freedom*. > > This is so wrong I nearly don't know where to start. Democratic > Governor-elect John Lynch here bused up teamsters to beat up republican > campaigners, they vandalized campaign signs all over the state, and > border jumped on election day to steal the election here. > > Before taking office he's announced he'll ban expansion of the Mount > Sunapee resort to appease the tree huggers. He's proposed $800 million > in new spending with no way to pay for it. He'll have to double tax > rates to pay for it. Some 'freedom'. An anecdotal story does not constitute proof. Furthermore, I live in a forest of skyscrapers, and have no alliance with "tree huggers" (whoever they are). Somewhat like the technique Michael Moore uses (except for the "libertarian" side), you seem to like to puke out a litany of phrases that you attribute to *all* liberals, but that activity ends up signifying nothing. If you want to talk *spending* (everything from the sacred to the profane), observe: the $8,000 tax payers spent on draping the Statue of Justice's bare-naked breasts (this would be at the "sacred" end of the spectrum IMO - but then I am a First Amendment absolutist) - furthermore, in your opinion, is this "freedom" or is this an attempt to "control?": http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?artid=26&file=index&name=Sections&op=modload&req=printpage the obscene costs of the Iraq war (and the incalculable cost of all the lives lost): http://www.costofwar.com/ http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/failedtransition/index.htm http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/ Even conservatively, $50,000,000,000 billion was the tab Wolfowitz predicted: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/iraqwar/2002063971_iraqaudit15.html While I sympathize with the Case of the Missing Campaign signs in your bailiwick, what do you have to say about the lives lost in the Iraq war, the costs of this war ... and the powerlessness of the dead? Olga From marudubshinki at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 19:55:21 2004 From: marudubshinki at yahoo.com (Maru) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 11:55:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Nietzsche on Religion Incorporated In-Reply-To: <200411061900.iA6J09004686@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <20041107195521.78938.qmail@web14713.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, but did Nietzche mean fertilizer as in dung, or fertilizer as necessary ingredient, base of the pillar, which will help athe more beautiful stuff grow (which themselves will eventually ebcome fertilizer.)? ~Maru --- extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > From: Al Brooks > Thanks for the link, it's worth saving. BTW didn't > Nietzsche once call common humanity 'fertilizer'? > What is always in the back (and often up front) of my > mind is Nietzsche's writing on the "will to power". > When you think of how there are people in the world > who would destroy the entire biosphere in a nuclear > war, for the sake of pursuing power (though not > necessarily power for themselves personally) it is > enough to make you want to build a fallout shelter in > the basement. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Nov 7 20:13:52 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:13:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Science Experiments for Kids Message-ID: Some possibly useful links. http://homeschooling.gomilpitas.com/explore/sci.htm Science Experiments For Kids Simple, easy, cheap experiments and science fair projects you can do at home using the scientic method. --------------- http://rivoli1.scuole.piemonte.it/linkscienze/LINK%20SCIENZE.htm Here's a metalinks page (in Italian) for science experiments and demonstrations for kids ----------------- I found these two delightful children's science experiments books (in Italian) at a garage sale: Divertiamoci con la Scienza 1 by Brenda Walpole, DeAgostini, 1994 Divertiamoci con la Scienza 2 by Tery Cash and Steve Parker, DeAgostini, 1994 Which were probably translated from these older books in English: Fun with Science by Walpole http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0862722411/ More Fun with Science by Parker et al http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/086272578X/ Enjoy... -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From namacdon at ole.augie.edu Sun Nov 7 21:36:08 2004 From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 15:36:08 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard Message-ID: <1099863368.708ec6a0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Mike Lorrey wrote: "The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security system beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any semblance of its current form." The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is not dying. :) -Nicq MacDonald From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Nov 7 21:46:48 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 13:46:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard References: <1099863368.708ec6a0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Message-ID: <000b01c4c513$49274f60$6600a8c0@brainiac> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nicholas Anthony MacDonald" > Mike Lorrey wrote: > "The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is > that its primary impact will be to bankrupt the social security system > beyond the ability of any government to fix it in any semblance of its > current form." > > The one thing I'm looking forward to about practical immortality is not dying. :) What you said reminded me of what I just read in (the Sunday supplement) Parade magazine regarding the just-turned 90-year-old Jack LaLanne. LaLanne said he has to stay alive as, "Death would ruin my image." Olga From neptune at superlink.net Sun Nov 7 21:59:08 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:59:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard References: <1099863368.708ec6a0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Message-ID: <001701c4c515$0260cd20$39893cd1@pavilion> On Sunday, November 07, 2004 4:36 PM Nicholas Anthony MacDonald namacdon at ole.augie.edu wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > "The one thing I'm looking forward to > about practical immortality is that its > primary impact will be to bankrupt the > social security system beyond the > ability of any government to fix it in > any semblance of its current form." > > The one thing I'm looking forward to > about practical immortality is not dying. :) I'm actually looking forward to _living_ even more.:) Regards, Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html "... the world we call. the modern world. The world that tries to be clever. The world of the intelligent, of the advanced, of those who know, who have nothing more to learn. The world of those who are not had on by fools. Like us. That is to say: the world of those who believe in nothing, not even in atheism, who devote themselves, who sacrifice themselves to nothing. More precisely the world of those without a mystique. And who boast of it." -- Charles P?guy From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Sun Nov 7 22:01:19 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:01:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Nietzsche on Religion Incorporated In-Reply-To: <20041107195521.78938.qmail@web14713.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041107220120.84344.qmail@web51601.mail.yahoo.com> Probably both. Nietzsche liked to cover all his bases. Maru wrote:Yeah, but did Nietzche mean fertilizer as in dung, or fertilizer as necessary ingredient, base of the pillar, which will help athe more beautiful stuff grow (which themselves will eventually ebcome fertilizer.)? ~Maru --- extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote: > From: Al Brooks > Thanks for the link, it's worth saving. BTW didn't > Nietzsche once call common humanity 'fertilizer'? > What is always in the back (and often up front) of my > mind is Nietzsche's writing on the "will to power". > When you think of how there are people in the world > who would destroy the entire biosphere in a nuclear > war, for the sake of pursuing power (though not > necessarily power for themselves personally) it is > enough to make you want to build a fallout shelter in > the basement. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat headline: "Beheadings On Rise Around The World" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 7 22:11:34 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 16:11:34 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] places to live Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107160941.019cbec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> [from CIA WorldFactbook] IVORY COAST: Age structure: 0-14 years: 45.1% (male 3,856,130; female 3,965,930) 15-64 years: 52.6% (male 4,651,921; female 4,468,085) 65 years and over: 2.2% (male 182,995; female 202,663) (2004 est.) Median age: total: 17 years male: 17.4 years female: 16.7 years (2004 est.) Population growth rate: 2.11% (2004 est.) USA Age structure: 0-14 years: 20.8% (male 31,122,974; female 29,713,748) 15-64 years: 66.9% (male 97,756,380; female 98,183,309) 65 years and over: 12.4% (male 15,078,204; female 21,172,956) (2004 est.) Median age: total: 36 years male: 34.7 years female: 37.4 years (2004 est.) Population growth rate: 0.92% (2004 est.) AUSTRALIA: Age structure: 0-14 years: 20.1% (male 2,044,449; female 1,948,574) 15-64 years: 67.2% (male 6,747,687; female 6,623,995) 65 years and over: 12.8% (male 1,121,522; female 1,426,917) (2004 est.) Median age: total: 36.3 years male: 35.5 years female: 37.1 years (2004 est.) Population growth rate: 0.9% (2004 est.) Age structure: 0-14 years: 14.3% (male 9,337,867; female 8,876,996) 15-64 years: 66.7% (male 42,697,264; female 42,196,835) 65 years and over: 19% (male 10,169,190; female 14,054,850) (2004 est.) Median age: total: 42.3 years male: 40.5 years female: 44.1 years (2004 est.) Population growth rate: 0.08% (2004 est.) From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Nov 7 23:03:08 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 17:03:08 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] places to live In-Reply-To: <418EA235.40109@mydruthers.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107160941.019cbec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <418EA235.40109@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107170200.01a08ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 02:31 PM 11/7/2004 -0800, Chris Hibbert wrote: >You left out the last place name in your list. The first three are Ivory >Coast, USA, and Australia, but the last data set is unlabeled. Let's see >Britain? Canada? Drat, sorry. Japan. Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Nov 8 00:37:40 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:37:40 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Damien Broderick > > As usual, I must be missing something here. If `social security' is > shorthand for collective funding of pensions for the ill, the > incapacitated > and those made feeble by old-age, plus collective funding of > some or all > medical expenses, then `practical immortality' largely does > away with the > need for such a system. It could increase the need for spending on > continuing education, say, assuming any jobs remain for > humans, and that > any humans remain in the first place. But I can't see why > keeping everyone > healthy and youthful would `bankrupt the social security > system'. On the > contrary, I think this is one of the great benefits of any negligible > senescence treatment, and a major motive for governments to > invest heavily > in its development *before* the shit hits the fan. > > Damien Broderick Ah I am glad we finally reached the point where differences in basic assumptions can be identified, so that meaningful dialog can take place. Social security was originally designed as an old-age pension, not necessarily for the ill or incapacitated. One becomes a pensioner at a certain age, absolutely regardless of one's medical or fiscal condition. Of course thegovennment quickly amassed a great fortune, and the temptation to use the fund for general welfare was overwhelming. So the difference in assumptions is whether the payout is based upon the pay-in, or upon actual need. I might agree that if we accomplished practical immortality, we might not need the current social security system. But we would still have it. The newly immortal would assume that the US government owes them a pension forever. They might be quite unwilling to relinquish that entitlement, even if they do not *need* the checks. Altho we are not getting physical immortality, human lifespans are increasing way faster than the social security system can sustain. We are in a social security trap. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 8 00:56:07 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 18:56:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107184411.019ebec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:37 PM 11/7/2004 -0800, Spike wrote: >I might agree that if we accomplished practical >immortality, we might not need the current social >security system. But we would still have it. Yes, we've established that this is the case in the USA and many other nations. However, the fact that it *isn't* so in Australia is an existence proof that people don't run barking mad in the street at the news that an un-means-tested pension is *not* an `entitlement', just as slave-owning is no longer an `entitlement'. But you might have to creep up on them with this horrifying news. > The >newly immortal would assume that the US government >owes them a pension forever. They might be quite >unwilling to relinquish that entitlement, even if >they do not *need* the checks. People get over lots of changes. When inflation robs us of our savings, we sit there quietly or muttering; there's hardly ever a bloody revolution with bankers' heads on poles. >Altho we are not getting physical immortality, human >lifespans are increasing way faster than the social >security system can sustain. True, and to a large extent bringing increased debility, senility and suffering with it. This is a short-to-medium term problem, one must hope, unless medical research runs into huge problems or political obstacles. And as people on this list should be the first to acknowledge, plenty of jobs are gone for good already, and more will follow, but we can expect that improvements in manufacturing and other technologies will make it feasible for those without work, even the immortal young, to obtain the necessities cheaply or free. So the pension problem is a medium term issue, and really won't have much bearing (IMHO) on the era of `practical immortality'. Oh, and did I hear someone say `Singularity', with all that such an incalculable disruption implies to our expectations? Damien Broderick From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 00:56:25 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:56:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: <20041108005625.32801.qmail@web51604.mail.yahoo.com> We underestimate how potent the urge is to promote one's genetic posterity; and yet again Bush was under-estimated, Bush was depicted by his opponents in both the 2000 & 2004 elections as a dim frat-boy. Well, when you take into account that he is set for life and is provided with probably the best health care money can buy, then maybe we should all be dim frat boys (or dim sorority sisters). If Bush is 'dim' he is dim like a fox. So when Jeb Bush runs against Hillary in 2008 are we going to underestimate him, too? Jeb Bush pretty much declared in code he will run for the presidency in 2008. Fifteen days before the last election Jeb said he will definitely not attempt to be a presidential candidate in 2008, qualifying the statement with the explanation that he wants to finish his term as governor of Florida. However since his term as governor ends the beginning of 2006 he has plenty of time to run for president after he leaves the governor's mansion. Jeb added unhelpfully how he wants to keep his "options open". headline: "Beheadings On Rise Around The World" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Walter_Chen at compal.com Mon Nov 8 01:19:52 2004 From: Walter_Chen at compal.com (Walter_Chen at compal.com) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:19:52 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] USAF & PQT Message-ID: <3F596B56355C7C4EA723ECAB3EC2F42605B7EDEF@tpeex05> Will human beings become transhumans and even immortal when Teleportation is just a daily life? Maybe we just teleport the healthy parts of us into others. Thanks. Walter. --------- -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of scerir Sent: Monday, November 08, 2004 3:00 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] USAF & PQT PQT = Psychic Quantum Teleportation (of course) AIR FORCE RESEARCH LABORATORY AIR FORCE MATERIEL COMMAND EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, CA 'Teleportation Physics Study' http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf (long 'review' paper, about 88 pages) by Eric W. Davis (Warp Drive Metrics, Las Vegas) http://www.theolympian.com/home/news/20041106/living/28378.shtml (popularization) :s) "According to David Hume causality is based on nothing more than the observed constant conjunction of two or more kinds of events, say A and B. It is a mere habit we have to call the earlier of the occurrences, say A, the cause, and the later, B, the effect; no relation of necessity, nor even of likelihood, of a B's succeeding an A in the future can be deduced.' - D. Atkinson 'We would like to think of teleportation as the transmission of quantum information from A to B. If we accept the intuitively appealing tenet that a transfer of information from sender to receiver must always be mediated by a channel connecting the two participants, teleportation appears paradoxical: If only two classical bits were sent, how did the full quantum information pass from A to B? Looking at the standard space-time diagram of the teleportation process, we see that there is indeed a second (V-shaped) path connecting A to B, which is defined by the two world lines of the distributed EPR particle pair. This leads to an intriguing interpretation (first proposed by Bennett soon after the discovery of teleportation): In addition to the two bits, the remaining quantum information must have been propagated backward in time from A to the EPR source and thence forward in time to B. Indeed, if we insist that information transmission requires a physical channel, there appears to be no other possible interpretation of the teleportation process! It is remarkable that this interpretation is entirely consistent: The principles of quantum measurement theory imply that the information sent backward in time is random and independent of the teleported state, so long as the two classical bits remain unknown. Hence, the well-known classical causal paradoxes of backward-in-time information propagation are neatly circumvented. This analysis, inspired by our informational point of view, also reveals a new significance for entanglement in quantum theory (beyond the traditional issues of nonlocal correlations of measurement outcomes): Entanglement can be viewed as providing a channel for the transmission of quantum information.' - R. Jozsa _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neptune at superlink.net Mon Nov 8 02:18:39 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 21:18:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com><001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20041107184411.019ebec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003701c4c539$4361b0e0$b2893cd1@pavilion> On Sunday, November 07, 2004 7:56 PM Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: > People get over lots of changes. When inflation > robs us of our savings, we sit there quietly or > muttering; there's hardly ever a bloody > revolution with bankers' heads on poles. Though I'm not sure the bankers cause inflation -- maybe the central bankers do, but not bankers in general -- your gist is correct. People will get used to just about anything, especially if it comes in small doses at first. I'm reminded of a certain quaint phrase on the matter: "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." Cheers! Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html "He who does not bellow out the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers." -- Charles P?guy From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 8 02:58:21 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 20:58:21 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <003701c4c539$4361b0e0$b2893cd1@pavilion> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20041107184411.019ebec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <003701c4c539$4361b0e0$b2893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107205600.01ab1430@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:18 PM 11/7/2004 -0500, Technotranscendence wrote: > > When inflation > > robs us of our savings, we sit there quietly or > > muttering; there's hardly ever a bloody > > revolution with bankers' heads on poles. > >Though I'm not sure the bankers cause inflation -- maybe the central >bankers do, but not bankers in general The mob mind is hardly ever as subtle in identifying culprits for retribution as is thine or mine, Dan. :) Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 8 03:04:55 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2004 21:04:55 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Unskilled jobs to go in 10 years' Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107210021.0198f770@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/08/njobs08.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/08/ixnewstop.html By Malcolm Moore, Economics Correspondent (Filed: 08/11/2004) There will be no jobs for unskilled workers in Britain within 10 years, the leading employers' organisation claims today. The prediction is based on the growth in "outsourcing" manufacturing and sales jobs abroad to economies where staff are hired at a fraction of the cost. Digby Jones, the director-general of the CBI, will tell his annual conference in Birmingham: "There will not be any work in Britain for unskilled people . . . within one scholastic generation." In a survey of 150 companies, which employ 750,000 people between them, 51 per cent said the pressure to move their jobs abroad had increased. [etc] "Protectionist voices who think they can stop this - that's cloud cuckoo land," he will tell the conference, which will be attended by Gordon Brown, the Chancellor, and Peter Mandelson, the European Trade Commissioner. "Ensuring people have the skills remains our problem. You have nothing to fear if you skill yourself." [etc etc] ================== The trouble with this `skilling yourself' theory, as far as I can tell, is the insidious and inevitable slide of remaining and new jobs toward the righthand side of the capability bell curve. Outsourcing doesn't just mean equally stupid people will work for less; it means extremely capable people will work for less. For a while, anyway. Damien Broderick From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 12 03:44:46 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:44:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com><001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY><6.1.1.1.0.20041107184411.019ebec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <003701c4c539$4361b0e0$b2893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <002d01c4c869$f4abfd50$36b22643@kevin> > thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: > > People get over lots of changes. When inflation > > robs us of our savings, we sit there quietly or > > muttering; there's hardly ever a bloody > > revolution with bankers' heads on poles. Perhaps that is because so few people have savings and so many have debt. One of the side benefits of inflation is that it destroys debt just as well as it destroys savings...provided it is installment debt with a fixed interest rate. Kevin Freels From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Nov 12 03:51:00 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2004 21:51:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Unskilled jobs to go in 10 years' References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107210021.0198f770@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003401c4c86a$d3bc2d30$36b22643@kevin> Could this be because the minimum wage in Britain is 4.85 pounds (About $9.00 US)? That's a little less than twice our $5.15. Minimum wage laws are one of the very things that drives companies to send unskilled jobs overseas. Kevin Freels ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 9:04 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Unskilled jobs to go in 10 years' > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/08/njobs08.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/11/08/ixnewstop.html > > > By Malcolm Moore, Economics Correspondent > (Filed: 08/11/2004) > > There will be no jobs for unskilled workers in Britain within 10 years, the > leading employers' organisation claims today. > > The prediction is based on the growth in "outsourcing" manufacturing and > sales jobs abroad to economies where staff are hired at a fraction of the cost. > > Digby Jones, the director-general of the CBI, will tell his annual > conference in Birmingham: "There will not be any work in Britain for > unskilled people . . . within one scholastic generation." > > In a survey of 150 companies, which employ 750,000 people between them, 51 > per cent said the pressure to move their jobs abroad had increased. > [etc] > > > "Protectionist voices who think they can stop this - that's cloud cuckoo > land," he will tell the conference, which will be attended by Gordon Brown, > the Chancellor, and Peter Mandelson, the European Trade Commissioner. > > "Ensuring people have the skills remains our problem. You have nothing to > fear if you skill yourself." > [etc etc] > > ================== > > The trouble with this `skilling yourself' theory, as far as I can tell, is > the insidious and inevitable slide of remaining and new jobs toward the > righthand side of the capability bell curve. Outsourcing doesn't just mean > equally stupid people will work for less; it means extremely capable people > will work for less. For a while, anyway. > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 03:59:58 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:29:58 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: References: <710b78fc0411051745392a46d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04110719594cbbd402@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:20:03 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > Emlyn, I appreciate the sincerity of your question and I'll try to answer it > as clearly and succinctly as I can. What I won't do is get into a debate; > feelings are too high and this really isn't a forum for such discussions in my > personal opinion. Thanks Greg, and no, I don't want to drag you into an endless argument trying to justify your position; I'm just trying to gather information. Thanks for answering candidly, it's very unusual on such a polarised and emotional subject. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 04:09:13 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:09:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] places to live In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107170200.01a08ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041108040913.215.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 02:31 PM 11/7/2004 -0800, Chris Hibbert wrote: > > >You left out the last place name in your list. The first three are > Ivory > >Coast, USA, and Australia, but the last data set is unlabeled. Let's > see > >Britain? Canada? > > Drat, sorry. Japan. > And what was the point of these stats? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 04:11:22 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 20:11:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107205600.01ab1430@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20041108041122.91595.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 09:18 PM 11/7/2004 -0500, Technotranscendence wrote: > > > > When inflation > > > robs us of our savings, we sit there quietly or > > > muttering; there's hardly ever a bloody > > > revolution with bankers' heads on poles. > > > >Though I'm not sure the bankers cause inflation -- maybe the central > >bankers do, but not bankers in general > > The mob mind is hardly ever as subtle in identifying culprits for > retribution as is thine or mine, Dan. :) Ah, but its always the local banker who comes to take your house with the sheriff when HE makes the mistake of screwing up his reserve ratio and has to call in perfectly good loans. Sounds like a perfect time for some piking. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 05:42:15 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:42:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Teleportation Physics Study Message-ID: <470a3c52041107214226829daa@mail.gmail.com> It is interesting how in the US research programs based on "weird science" get actually funded by mainstream military bodies, and with the budgets quoted below. From the paper "Teleportation Physics Study", funded by the USAF: We will need a physics theory of consciousness and psychotronics, along with more experimental data, in order to test the hypothesis in Section 5.1.1 and discover the physical mechanisms that lay behind the psychotronic manipulation of matter. P-Teleportation, if verified, would represent a phenomenon that could offer potential high-payoff military, intelligence and commercial applications. This phenomenon could generate a dramatic revolution in technology, which would result from a dramatic paradigm shift in science. Anomalies are the key to all paradigm shifts! Approved for public release; distribution unlimited. 62 experimental program similar in fashion to the Remote Viewing program should be funded at $900,000 ? 1,000,000 per year in parallel with a theoretical program funded at $500,000 per year for an initial five-year duration. The role of quantum physics theory and related quantum phenomena (i.e., entanglement and teleportation) in p-Teleportation and psychotronics should be explored in this program (see for example, the Biological Quantum Teleportation recommendation in Section 3.3). An experiment definition study should be conducted first to identify and propose the best experiments for this program, which should be funded at $80,000 for one year. http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Mon Nov 8 08:00:39 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:00:39 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041108041122.91595.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041108041122.91595.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <418F27A7.5090005@optusnet.com.au> Mike Lorrey wrote: > Ah, but its always the local banker who comes to take your house with > the sheriff when HE makes the mistake of screwing up his reserve ratio > and has to call in perfectly good loans. Sounds like a perfect time for > some piking. > If this was ever the case in Australia - that somebody was evicted by a bank calling in a loan that wasn't defaulted on - then there would be bankers heads on pikes. From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 09:06:04 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 01:06:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] molecular markers of aging In-Reply-To: <003401c4c86a$d3bc2d30$36b22643@kevin> Message-ID: <20041108090604.80294.qmail@web60008.mail.yahoo.com> In a study published in the Nov. 1 issue of the Journal of Clinical Investigation, the researchers report that as cells and tissues age, the expression of two proteins called p16INK4a and ARF dramatically increases. This increase in expression, more than a hundredfold in some tissues, suggests a strong link between cellular aging and the upregulation, or increased production, of p16INK4a and ARF. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-11/uonc-ulr110404.php __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 09:20:57 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:20:57 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Unskilled jobs to go in 10 years' In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107210021.0198f770@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107210021.0198f770@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 21:04:55 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > > There will be no jobs for unskilled workers in Britain within 10 years, the > leading employers' organisation claims today. > > The prediction is based on the growth in "outsourcing" manufacturing and > sales jobs abroad to economies where staff are hired at a fraction of the cost. > The choice phrase used was "Britain will become a nation of hairdressers" :) But this report is from the CBI conference, intended to get more benefits for big companies from the government. They are both ignoring the thriving 'black-market' economy being created by the ever-increasing taxes and regulations from government. Officially, like 'unemployment', if it doesn't appear in their records, then it doesn't exist. BillK From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 09:41:55 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:41:55 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <418F27A7.5090005@optusnet.com.au> References: <20041108041122.91595.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <418F27A7.5090005@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 19:00:39 +1100, David wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Ah, but its always the local banker who comes to take your house with > > the sheriff when HE makes the mistake of screwing up his reserve ratio > > and has to call in perfectly good loans. Sounds like a perfect time for > > some piking. > > > > If this was ever the case in Australia - that somebody was evicted by a bank > calling in a loan that wasn't defaulted on - then there would be bankers > heads on pikes. > Anybody noticed the collapse in the USdollar exchange rate this year? And especially since Bush was re-elected. Last year we got about 1.6 USD for a pound. Now we get about 1.85 USD. If it continues (i.e. if the huge US deficit continues) we will all be able to pop over to the US and buy everything for loose change. Isn't economics wonderful? BillK From sjatkins at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 10:33:03 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 02:33:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com> Inline comments. Sorry they are late. On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:14:24 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Olga, I couldn't agree more on what you say here, but the fact is, he has won. He squeaked by. Unfortunately in this country it is winner (no matter by how slim a margin) take all. > Perhaps we will just have to acknowledge that for the time being his > message of fundamentalist jihad just resonates more than ours with the > average American (yes, American: a politician like Bush would never > get elected in Europe where the average citizen is a bit less > vulnerable to advertising and listens a bit more to what is actually > said). It is up to us to change that. I am very strongly anti-Bush but it is simply wrong to suppose that the average American voted for him due to fundamentalism. The average American imho is more likely to be totally brainwashed by the long harping on terror. They are voting from fear. Fear truly is "the mind killer". > I think our friend Mike has a very valid point when he calls for a > fact check: most people just disagree with us. Again, it is up to us > to change that. A way is not to limit ourselves to preaching to the > converted, but also engage in debate with those who disagree. > Debate? I am not sure that is an adequate antidote to fear. - samantha From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 10:42:12 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 02:42:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041108104212.56743.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> "the gift that kept on giving" This was Karl Rove's comment on Kerry's voting against funding the $87 billion war legislation in 2003. ===== headline: "Beheadings On Rise Around The World" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Nov 8 10:54:27 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 04:54:27 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com> References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20041108045051.01b2d750@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 02:33 AM 11/8/2004 -0800, Samantha wrote: >On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:14:24 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Olga, I couldn't agree more on what you say here, but the fact is, he > has won. > >He squeaked by. Unfortunately in this country it is winner (no matter >by how slim a margin) take all. When you're voting for President, what method would you prefer? Surely not *loser* take all? (That was 2000, same guy, right?) Surely not rotating chairs during the period of office? Or abolishing the office entirely in favor of a committee? Damien Broderick From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua Mon Nov 8 10:05:13 2004 From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 13:05:13 +0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Election results and Leviathan In-Reply-To: <0623F703-3017-11D9-9C59-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> <1099597784.9987@whirlwind.he.net> <470a3c5204110422234f6d1d74@mail.gmail.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20041106130852.00ae11e0@pop.cris.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20041108115608.00aa1f00@pop.cris.net> At 09:12 AM 11/6/04 -0800, you J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >On Nov 6, 2004, at 2:25 AM, Gennady Ra wrote: >> The hot story in the Blogosphere is that the "erroneous" exit polls that showed Kerry carrying Florida and Ohio (among other states) weren't erroneous at all - it was the numbers produced by paperless voting machines that were wrong, and Kerry actually won. As more and more analysis is done of what may (or may not) be the most massive election fraud in the history of the world... > >Tinfoil hat nonsense and propaganda. Well, probably I picked it out of despair. A drowning man will catch at a straw. As I wrote to another list participant in a private message: Somebody from Frankfurt school, perhaps Horkheimer, said that "totalitarian regimes of the 20th century cannot be destroyed from within." That is, their apparatus of suppression and control is so effective and perfect that inner dissenting forces will be unavoidably detected and neutralized. The Soviet Empire was destroyed from without, due to efforts (I simplify) of the Americans, Ronald Reagan and SDI bluff. It seemed a blessing but as it turned out the Americans did it just to clear their way to their own, ultimate totalitarian state, an invincible mixture of Middle Ages mind and modern technology. (And what is worse: hammer and sickle or cross?) This time there is nothing in the Universe from without left to come and save us The Americans do not have a hunch for totalitarianism, and complacency and placidity of some are truly astounding but we, experienced, here in former Soviet Union, watch in utter despair how the Beast has come and foresee that the Leviathan will grow and devour everything. And alas, I do not believe that free people in America love their freedom more than those who caught the power love the Power and are ready to fight for their liberty in the hot civil war. (And who can fight the ultimate Leviathan? It will contradict the Horkheimer's dictum.) Not very extropic and dynamically/practically optimistic message... Gennady Simferopol Crimea Ukraine From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 12:41:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 04:41:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041108124135.74107.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > > > > Anybody noticed the collapse in the USdollar exchange rate this year? > And especially since Bush was re-elected. > Last year we got about 1.6 USD for a pound. Now we get about 1.85 > USD. If it continues (i.e. if the huge US deficit continues) we will > all be able to pop over to the US and buy everything for loose change. > > Isn't economics wonderful? To be expected with yesterdays announcement by IPG of a 60 day state of emergency. Bush will get done what needs to be done, they'll have elections in January, and things will get better. Meanwhile the international left will use its assets to leverage as much damage on the US financially as it can. Financial pressure is about all they can do, really. They don't have the military might or will to do anything. Switzerland could come up with a larger army in 24 hours than Germany could draft together in 6 months. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Mon Nov 8 13:36:28 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:36:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041108124135.74107.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041108124135.74107.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3193CBC5-318B-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 8 Nov 2004, at 13:41, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Financial pressure is about all they can do, really. They don't have > the military might or will to do anything. Switzerland could come up > with a larger army in 24 hours than Germany could draft together in 6 > months. I am not sure how Germany's army has anything to with the weak dollar, perhaps I missed a post. Here in European the increasing strength of the Euro against the Dollar is starting to ring alarm bells. However, at the moment its not so high that people are widely panicing. At the moment its about 1.28, and I read over the weekend that it could reach 1.35 in the next few months at which point some sort of corrective measures are likely to be applied. According to the Economist the Euro and Dollar should have a rough parity, which if true shows how far out of whack things have become. One practical consequence of this is that its now about 10% cheaper to buy books from Amazon.com than Amazon.de, even when taking into account free shipping within Germany. best, patrick From kerry_prez at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 13:41:09 2004 From: kerry_prez at yahoo.com (Al Brooks) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 05:41:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Election results and Leviathan In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20041108115608.00aa1f00@pop.cris.net> Message-ID: <20041108134109.4071.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Get a hold of yourself, Gennady. At one time the cross was worse, but after the purges of 1936-39 the hammer & sickle outdid the cross at murder and mind control. You know that. > (And what is worse: hammer and > sickle or cross?) >Gennady __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 13:45:40 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 14:45:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Religious leaders prepare demands on White House Message-ID: <470a3c52041108054514514149@mail.gmail.com> This is quite disturbing, but was to be expected. Pioneer press: America's conservative religious leaders, credited with providing the margin of victory for President Bush's re-election, are ready to present the White House with a bill for services rendered. The list, they say, is a lengthy one, beginning with the nomination of U.S. Supreme Court justices who will overturn the landmark Roe v. Wade decision on abortion, increased support for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, and a larger role in policing decency for the Federal Communications Commission. The Rev. Steve Smith, spokesman for First Baptist Church of Orlando, Fla., said Bush's election and his support among conservative Christians show large portions of the electorate are "grounded in traditional family values." On abortion, for example, "there's no question" there will be pressure from Christian conservatives to appoint judges who "value the sanctity of human life," Smith said. Conservative groups will continue to push for an end to abortion or, at the very least, legislation "greatly limiting" the practice. http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/nation/10127751.htm?1c From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 14:20:59 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 06:20:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <3193CBC5-318B-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20041108142059.82284.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > I am not sure how Germany's army has anything to with the weak > dollar, perhaps I missed a post. All the anti-us states can do is engage in financial warfare if they don't like US foreign policy enough to want to do something about it. > > at which point some sort of corrective measures are likely to be > applied. According to the Economist the Euro and Dollar should have a > rough parity, which if true shows how far out of whack things have > become. > > One practical consequence of this is that its now about 10% cheaper > to buy books from Amazon.com than Amazon.de, even when taking into > account free shipping within Germany. You are engaging in a 'corrective measure' by doing so, and helping to improve the US trade balance, which contributes to the exchange rate. We appreciate it, thanks. Markets can fix themselves, provided governments get out of the way. When you see a sustained disparity that is not being naturally corrected, some government(s) is/are responsible. Of course, one might claim that Bush is entirely supportive of terrible exchange rates: it punishes all those wine swilling, brie chewing liberals with high french wine and cheese prices, earns profits for oil stocks of his texas buddies, and provides market impetus to finally drill for oil in ANWAR. ANWAR is the big problem. The Euro is rising in value because of Russia's rise as an oil power as well as the shift by many states from backing their own currencies with the dollar to the euro. This creates a surplus of dollars and a dearth of euros as various Bumfukistan Central Banks dump their dollar reserves and buy up euro reserves. The US could reverse the influence of Russias oil on the euro by opening up ANWAR, which is why the european based tree-hugger groups are all dead set against it. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Nov 8 15:59:19 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:59:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041108124135.74107.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (11/8/04 4:41) Mike Lorrey wrote: >Meanwhile the >international left will use its assets to leverage as much damage on >the US financially as it can. Do you really believe that the currencies markets are tools of the left wing? Does that mean that open markets are leftist too? Do tell. Inquiring minds want to know. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Nov 8 15:59:32 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:59:32 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041108142059.82284.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (11/8/04 6:20) Mike Lorrey wrote: >ANWAR is the big problem. The Euro is rising in value because of >Russia's rise as an oil power as well as the shift by many states from >backing their own currencies with the dollar to the euro. This creates >a surplus of dollars and a dearth of euros as various Bumfukistan >Central Banks dump their dollar reserves and buy up euro reserves. > >The US could reverse the influence of Russias oil on the euro by >opening up ANWAR, which is why the european based tree-hugger groups >are all dead set against it. Hmm. Last I checked, Russia hadn't joined the EMU, and the Sierra Club and the Nature Conservancy were both based in the United States. Let me propose an alternate theory: smaller governments are noticing that not only is our Federal deficit rising, but there seems to be no serious effort to restrain it. Further, our goverment's policies seem to be engineered to undermine our manufacturing sector. Add that to the serious possibility of political instability as an extremely large portion of USians are concerned about the country's slide towards religious-based fascism, and suddenly Euroland, which also suffers large deficits but has made it clear that they are searching for a path to fiscal responsibility, seems like a better bet. Ah, how fickle the markets can be. Of course, there are plenty of plausible things that could swing the tide back - the election of a communist government in France or a breakdown of Euroland's "harmonized" tax regime as individual member countries start rebelling against policies set by France and Germany. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From jonkc at att.net Mon Nov 8 16:44:01 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:44:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac><470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006b01c4c5b2$3c107aa0$35f44d0c@hal2001> "Samantha Atkins" > The average American imho is more likely to > be totally brainwashed by the long harping > on terror. And that is one of two reasons I didn't vote for Kerry. Although he never expressed it quite as clearly as you just did I got the impression he wouldn't have been as aggressively anti terrorist as Bush and thought the reaction to 911 was overblown. I didn't think the reaction to 911 as overblown. It's true that Bush was horribly wrong about the WMD in Iraq business and that is unforgivable; or would be if Kerry, who was reading the same intelligence reports Bush was hadn't thought they were there too. And if our intelligence sucked I have no reason to think it would improve under a Kerry administration, he had after all been trying to slash its budget for the last 20 years. The other reason I didn't vote for Kerry was his idiotic economic policy; the keys to prosperity are not raising taxes and raising trade barriers. > They are voting from fear. Fear truly is > "the mind killer". Fear is a useful survival trait, if it were not evolution would not have ensured that every animal with a brain has it. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 17:16:47 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:16:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041108171647.8899.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (11/8/04 4:41) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Meanwhile the > >international left will use its assets to leverage as much damage on > >the US financially as it can. > > Do you really believe that the currencies markets are tools of the > left wing? Does that mean that open markets are leftist too? Do > tell. Inquiring minds want to know. One word: Soros, eastern block 'defector' with suspiciously extensive intelligence connections throughout the soviet bloc, which helped him make his billions. One phrase: "The capitalist will sell you the rope you hang him with." Soros is now the largest contributor to left-wing political organizations throughout the US. The 5th ComIntern's wealth was from the looting of the USSR and its ongoing involvement with the Russian mafia and FARC in Columbia, as well as groups in Vietnam and North Korea. That so many developed and developing nations are run partly or wholly by socialist parties, where their banking influence has been key in the shift of currency linkages from the dollar to the euro, is indicative. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 17:20:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 09:20:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20041108172030.24699.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (11/8/04 6:20) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >ANWAR is the big problem. The Euro is rising in value because of > >Russia's rise as an oil power as well as the shift by many states > from > >backing their own currencies with the dollar to the euro. This > creates > >a surplus of dollars and a dearth of euros as various Bumfukistan > >Central Banks dump their dollar reserves and buy up euro reserves. > > > >The US could reverse the influence of Russias oil on the euro by > >opening up ANWAR, which is why the european based tree-hugger groups > >are all dead set against it. > > > Hmm. Last I checked, Russia hadn't joined the EMU, and the Sierra > Club and the Nature Conservancy were both based in the United States. Cherry picking. World Wildlife Federation, Greenpeace, among others, are european based. The Nature Conservancy is based on Palmyra Island in the south pacific, which, while nominally US territory, the NC has some sort of pseudo-autonomous agreement with the Dept of the Interior which we have not be able to obtain any details about. Oh, and the Sierra Club was founded by the Bohemian Club members.... And Russia does all its oil banking in europe. > > Let me propose an alternate theory: smaller governments are noticing > that not only is our Federal deficit rising, but there seems to be no > serious effort to restrain it. Further, our goverment's policies seem > to be engineered to undermine our manufacturing sector. Add that to > the serious possibility of political instability as an extremely > large portion of USians are concerned about the country's slide > towards religious-based fascism, and suddenly Euroland, which also > suffers large deficits but has made it clear that they are searching > for a path to fiscal responsibility, seems like a better bet. Ah, how > fickle the markets can be. Of course, there are plenty of plausible > things that could swing the tide back - the election of a communist > government in France or a breakdown of Euroland's "harmonized" tax > regime as individual member countries start rebelling against > policies set by France and Germany. Oh, definitely contributory factors. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From megao at sasktel.net Mon Nov 8 18:08:23 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:08:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard - radical financial restructuring? In-Reply-To: <002d01c4c869$f4abfd50$36b22643@kevin> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20041107184411.019ebec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <003701c4c539$4361b0e0$b2893cd1@pavilion> <002d01c4c869$f4abfd50$36b22643@kevin> Message-ID: <418FB617.8040404@sasktel.net> Kevin Freels wrote: >>thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: >> >> >>>People get over lots of changes. When inflation >>>robs us of our savings, we sit there quietly or >>>muttering; there's hardly ever a bloody >>>revolution with bankers' heads on poles. >>> >>> > >Perhaps that is because so few people have savings and so many have debt. >One of the side benefits of inflation is that it destroys debt just as well >as it destroys savings...provided it is installment debt with a fixed >interest rate. > >Kevin Freels > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From megao at sasktel.net Mon Nov 8 18:14:40 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 12:14:40 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard - radical financial restructuring? In-Reply-To: <418FB617.8040404@sasktel.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041106125749.01a8f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <001f01c4c52b$2dcd9590$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20041107184411.019ebec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <003701c4c539$4361b0e0$b2893cd1@pavilion> <002d01c4c869$f4abfd50$36b22643@kevin> <418FB617.8040404@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <418FB790.2070806@sasktel.net> Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: How does the USA balance a possible future solution to old debt via massive inflation while keeping interest rates low in order to force old banked money out as risk capital? Change the Fed rate? Might this only work if production efficiency from nano-bio .... other... create a "Moore's derivative law" which allows for a balancing claw back to repair the fundamental economy's debt crisis? > > > Kevin Freels wrote: > >>>thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: >>> >>> >>>>People get over lots of changes. When inflation >>>>robs us of our savings, we sit there quietly or >>>>muttering; there's hardly ever a bloody >>>>revolution with bankers' heads on poles. >>>> >>>> >> >>Perhaps that is because so few people have savings and so many have debt. >>One of the side benefits of inflation is that it destroys debt just as well >>as it destroys savings...provided it is installment debt with a fixed >>interest rate. >> >>Kevin Freels >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> >> >> > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 18:17:09 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:17:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Debate on improved humans, Dana Centre, London, 30 Nov Message-ID: <470a3c5204110810174c8aa8d2@mail.gmail.com> Dana Centre, London, November 30: Stem cell research, designer babies and genetic profiling. Discuss the latest issues in the world of genetics and other hot news stories with a panel including Professor Steve Jones of University College London. The Dana Centre is a stylish, purpose-built venue, complete with a cafebar, appealing to adults. It is a place for them to take part in exciting, informative and innovative debates about contemporary science, technology and culture. http://www.danacentre.org.uk/Default.aspx?DanaMenu=_EVENT&ArticleID={BF3C5404-6A3E-4920-BC04-D77EDDE05B40} From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 18:33:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:33:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041108171647.8899.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041108183327.22788.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Brent Neal wrote: > > > (11/8/04 4:41) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > >Meanwhile the > > >international left will use its assets to leverage as much damage > on > > >the US financially as it can. > > > > Do you really believe that the currencies markets are tools of the > > left wing? Does that mean that open markets are leftist too? Do > > tell. Inquiring minds want to know. > > One word: Soros, Second word: China: http://news.ft.com/cms/s/257979a6-30f4-11d9-a595-00000e2511c8.html Dollar expected to fall amid China's rumoured selling By Steve Johnson in London and Andrew Balls in Washington Published: November 7 2004 19:43 | Last updated: November 7 2004 19:43 The dollar could slide still further, in spite of hitting an all-time low against the euro last week in the wake of George W. Bush's re-election, currency traders have said. The dollar sell-off has resumed amid fears among traders that Mr Bush's victory will bring four more years of widening US budget and current account deficits, heightened geopolitical risks and a policy of "benign neglect" of the dollar. Many currency traders were taken aback on Friday when the greenback fell in spite of bullish data showing the US economy created 337,000 jobs in October. "If this can't cause the dollar to strengthen you have to tell me what will. This is a big green light to sell the dollar," said David Bloom, currency analyst at HSBC, as the greenback fell to a nine-year low in trade-weighted terms. The dollar's fall comes as the Federal Reserve is widely expected to raise US interest rates by a quarter point to 2 per cent when it meets on Wednesday and to signal that it will continue with a measured pace of rate increases. Speculative traders in Chicago last week racked up the highest number of long-euro, short-dollar contracts on record. Options traders have reported brisk business in euro calls - contracts to buy the euro at a pre-determined rate. However, the market has been rife with rumours that the latest wave of selling has been led by foreign governments seeking to cut their exposure to US assets. India and Russia have reportedly been selling US assets, as well as petrodollar-rich Middle Eastern investors. China, which has $515bn of reserves, was also said to be selling dollars and buying Asian currencies in readiness to switch the renminbi's dollar peg to a basket arrangement, something Chinese officials have increasingly hinted at. Any re-allocation could push the dollar sharply lower and Treasury yields markedly higher. ---end quote--- As I expected (and have predicted repeatedly on this list in the last two years), China will precede a move on Taiwan with a 'rearrangement' of its dollar reserves (the US Dollar is the backing of its entire money supply) to a mixed basket. Presented as ho-hum, this is intended to further devaluate the US dollar to push the US further into an oil crisis and make it difficult for the US to maintain its strategic oil reserves, which would be so necessary if a war between the US and China were to break out over Taiwan. China is seeing that US military forces are currently at their limits in the Iraq deployment and cannot handle a second regional or major war without a nationwide draft and significant lag time for training draftees. There is also significant domestic opposition to a draft in the US, and so long as China does not attack US targets, this opposition should remain high, and is likely being supported by left wing maoist groups that run anti-war organizations like ANSWER. China therefore thinks that this year is its opening, whether or not Bush or Kerry is in office. Bush can't bring new weapons systems online fast enough, or move overstressed military units into position in the western pacific. Depending on how rapidly China 'rearranges' its reserve mix of currencies and dumps dollars on the market will determine how soon Bush is forced to open the Strategic Oil Reserve for easing consumer prices. As consumer consumption draws down the reserve, Bush will be also using it up in bringing US forces home from Iraq as fast as possible and trying to ship as many of them to the west coast as possible. Some troop planes and ships may simply redeploy directly to Taiwan from Iraq, setting up a rear logistical and command area in Guam. Keep an eye out for THEL deployments to Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, or Guam. Guam especially will be vulnerable to ICBM attack from China and will likely be a proving ground for the THEL in dealing with strategic weapon trajectories as well. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 18:42:55 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:42:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cancer-free designer babies get approval Message-ID: <470a3c5204110810424f9cd834@mail.gmail.com> Every sane person should prefer cancer free designer babies to "natural" babies, whatever that means, genetically doomed to develop cancer, suffer and die. Not everybody is sane, but once again the UK is taking a step in the right direction. The Times: People with inherited forms of cancer have won the right to select embryos free from genes that might trigger the disease in future generations, The Times has learnt. The ruling by the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority deepens the controversy over designer babies. It sets a precedent that will allow doctors to "cherry-pick" embryos for a much wider range of traits than at present. Applications to extend the procedure are expected within months. Such tests can potentially eradicate some disorders, enabling parents to be certain of having healthy children. But critics said that the decision will push Britain farther towards "designer babies" chosen for social reasons. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1339197,00.html From pharos at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 19:01:15 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 19:01:15 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041108183327.22788.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041108171647.8899.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <20041108183327.22788.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:33:27 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > The dollar sell-off has resumed amid fears among traders that Mr Bush's > victory will bring four more years of widening US budget and current > account deficits, heightened geopolitical risks and a policy of "benign > neglect" of the dollar. > > However, the market has been rife with rumours that the latest wave of > selling has been led by foreign governments seeking to cut their > exposure to US assets. > > India and Russia have reportedly been selling US assets, as well as > petrodollar-rich Middle Eastern investors. > Nothing personal, Mike. It's just free market trading. If you can sell your dollar assets now and move the money into euros, then you benefit from the euros rising in value against the dollar AND you can buy the US assets back in a few years time at half-price. Sounds like a really good deal to me. I just wish I had some US assets to sell. :) BillK From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Mon Nov 8 19:25:59 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 20:25:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: References: <20041108171647.8899.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <20041108183327.22788.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05649674-31BC-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 8 Nov 2004, at 20:01, BillK wrote: > Sounds like a really good deal to me. I just wish I had some US assets > to sell. :) I have been very happily paying off my US credit card debt. Thanks GW! best, p. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Nov 8 21:24:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 13:24:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <05649674-31BC-11D9-8080-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20041108212452.64800.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > > On 8 Nov 2004, at 20:01, BillK wrote: > > Sounds like a really good deal to me. I just wish I had some US > assets > > to sell. :) > > I have been very happily paying off my US credit card debt. Thanks > GW! http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=530&ncid=530&e=9&u=/ap/20041108/ap_on_bi_ge/cuba_dollar Dollar Not Accepted at Cuban Businesses Business - AP By VANESSA ARRINGTON, Associated Press Writer HAVANA - After a decade as the dominant currency to buy everything from shampoo to canned food to furniture, the U.S. dollar is no longer accepted in Cuba as of Monday. Cubans as well as tourists visiting the island must now use a local currency tied to the dollar to buy goods at previously named "dollar-only stores" selling food and personal hygiene products. The dollar will also be rejected at restaurants, art markets, hotels and other businesses. Cuba's communist government announced the decision to eliminate the dollar from circulation Oct. 25, prompting thousands of Cubans to flood banks and exchange houses to turn in their dollars for Cuban convertible pesos. A 10 percent surcharge to convert the U.S. currency into pesos was also originally to be implemented Monday, but because of the huge demand to dispose of the U.S. bills, the Central Bank extended to Nov. 14 the period that people could exchange without paying the surcharge. The surcharge will not apply to other foreign currencies like the euro or the Canadian dollar, and there will be no surcharge to buy U.S. dollars. Cubans and tourists in Old Havana lined up outside exchange houses and swelled out of banks Monday to convert their dollars. People in the street were entertained by a dachshund named Pillo Chocolate who barked at currencies other than the convertible peso. "Before, Pillo would reject any currency that wasn't the dollar," said Roberto Gonzalez, the dog's trainer. "But in the last week I trained it to accept the convertible peso. It knows it has to adapt too." After sniffing a convertible peso, Pillo Chocolate swiped the bill with its paw in approval. Cubans also appear to have accepted the government measure with little complaint. "For me, it's the same, whether I use the dollar or the convertible peso," said Javier Fernandez, 50, a self-employed handyman. "All I need is the currency that will allow me to eat." Cubans will now use the convertible peso to purchase goods they have been buying with dollars since they were made legal tender in 1993 to help capture hard currency after the loss of Soviet aid and trade. Among such goods are groceries like cereal, yogurt and bottled water as well as most toiletries. Washing machines, furniture and gasoline have also been sold in dollars. The Cuban convertible peso, like that of many other smaller nations, has no value outside the country. There also exists another currency on the island ? the regular Cuban peso ? but it has little value inside the country and is used mainly to buy fruit and vegetables as well as gain admission to concerts, museums and movie theaters. In announcing the currency switch, President Fidel Castro (news - web sites) said widespread use of the money of his country's No. 1 enemy ? the United States ? would be halted to guarantee Cuba's economic independence. Castro said the move was necessary to protect the island nation from an increasing U.S. crackdown on the flow of American currency into Cuba. The United States has recently implemented severe limits on the amount Cuban exiles can send relatives on the island and Federal Reserve (news - web sites) fines imposed on international banks sending U.S. dollars here. Cubans can still hold the American currency. Some independent analysts believe many with savings will continue hoarding some of their dollars at home. "Nobody really knows how much U.S. money Cubans have, but it is substantial," said Paolo Spadoni, a Cuba expert from the University of Florida in Gainesville. A report authored by Spadoni last year roughly estimated that at least $500 million was being stored in Cuban homes, most of it money received from relatives in the United States. Central Bank President Francisco Soberon told the Associated Press last week that authorities were surprised to see how many dollars Cubans have been "saving under their mattresses." Soberon, however, declined to provide figures on how many dollars have been exchanged or deposited since the currency switch was announced. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Nov 8 23:03:22 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 18:03:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Medical ethics Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20041108174851.02efba60@unreasonable.com> My daughter, a fourth-generation sf reader, has a term paper coming up on medical ethics. Noting the card-carrying and de facto philosophers in our community, I thought I'd ask for links to sites and printed works that you have found well-written and thoughtful (non-fiction or sf). Unfortunately, she is not free to choose any topic within medical ethics. The paper must deal with reproductive medicine (including surrogacy), AIDS, or cloning, but she may want to read works on other areas on her own. -- David Lubkin. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Nov 8 23:20:47 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 09:50:47 +1030 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <006b01c4c5b2$3c107aa0$35f44d0c@hal2001> References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com> <006b01c4c5b2$3c107aa0$35f44d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <710b78fc0411081520ba3ce03@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 11:44:01 -0500, John K Clark wrote: > > They are voting from fear. Fear truly is > > "the mind killer". > > Fear is a useful survival trait, if it were not evolution would not have > ensured that every animal with a brain has it. Pretty much all those same animals die of old age (there *may* be an exception here and there, my mind is blank this morning). Yet, I'm not a big supporter of old age as a useful trait for the future of humanity. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Nov 9 03:33:44 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2004 20:33:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Teleportation Physics Study References: <470a3c52041107214226829daa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41903A98.4CCD257A@mindspring.com> Surfing the SIPRNET about 10 years ago I searched under 'paranormal' and 'psychic.' I found several USG sites dealing with American, European, and Communist (mostly Chinese and Soviet) study areas. The Communists were spending at maybe four times the Americans and Europeans. Terry ***** Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > It is interesting how in the US research programs based on "weird > science" get actually funded by mainstream military bodies, and with > the budgets quoted below. From the paper "Teleportation Physics > Study", funded by the USAF: We will need a physics theory of > consciousness and psychotronics, along with more experimental > data, in order to test the hypothesis in Section 5.1.1 and discover > the physical mechanisms that lay behind > the psychotronic manipulation of matter. P-Teleportation, if verified, > would represent a phenomenon that > could offer potential high-payoff military, intelligence and > commercial applications. This phenomenon > could generate a dramatic revolution in technology, which would result > from a dramatic paradigm shift in > science. Anomalies are the key to all paradigm shifts! > Approved for public release; distribution unlimited. > 62 > experimental program similar in fashion to the > Remote Viewing program should be funded at $900,000 ??? 1,000,000 per > year in parallel with a > theoretical program funded at $500,000 per year for an initial > five-year duration. The role of > quantum physics theory and related quantum phenomena (i.e., > entanglement and teleportation) in > p-Teleportation and psychotronics should be explored in this program > (see for example, the > Biological Quantum Teleportation recommendation in Section 3.3). An > experiment definition > study should be conducted first to identify and propose the best > experiments for this program, > which should be funded at $80,000 for one year. > http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/teleport.pdf -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From riel at surriel.com Tue Nov 9 04:18:41 2004 From: riel at surriel.com (Rik van Riel) Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:18:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Unskilled jobs to go in 10 years' In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107210021.0198f770@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107210021.0198f770@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Nov 2004, Damien Broderick wrote: > There will be no jobs for unskilled workers in Britain within 10 years, > the leading employers' organisation claims today. > > The prediction is based on the growth in "outsourcing" manufacturing and > sales jobs abroad to economies where staff are hired at a fraction of > the cost. "Why is the office so dirty?" "We outsourced our janitor to India" Lets face it, the people doing "high skill" jobs need to be taken care of. They need to be fed, have their offices cleaned, people need to take deliveries, send around packages, mow the lawn, etc... I suspect quite a few of the "unskilled labor jobs" cannot be outsourced, making the scare story above quite unrealistic. Rik -- "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan From jonkc at att.net Tue Nov 9 06:48:53 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 01:48:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac><470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com><948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com><006b01c4c5b2$3c107aa0$35f44d0c@hal2001> <710b78fc0411081520ba3ce03@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005d01c4c628$38d6cfd0$97fe4d0c@hal2001> "Emlyn" > Pretty much all those same animals die of old age. > [.] Yet, I'm not a big supporter of old age as a > useful trait for the future of humanity. At first I thought you were saying it would be preferable if we had no fear at all about anything; but then I thought no, you can't possibly mean that. Can you? Absolute fearlessness would be as detrimental to survival as an being incapable of being bored. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 9 18:34:57 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:34:57 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: The next race: America's space Prize Message-ID: <00de01c4c68a$d0b1b470$deebfb44@kevin> $50 million and a possible $1 billion in contracts to the winner! http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=96&ncid=753&e=10&u=/space/20041108/sc_space/exclusiverulessetfor50millionamericasspaceprize -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 9 18:39:39 2004 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:39:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041108124135.74107.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041108124135.74107.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41910EEB.6020509@mac.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- BillK wrote: > > >>Anybody noticed the collapse in the USdollar exchange rate this year? >>And especially since Bush was re-elected. >>Last year we got about 1.6 USD for a pound. Now we get about 1.85 >>USD. If it continues (i.e. if the huge US deficit continues) we will >>all be able to pop over to the US and buy everything for loose >> >> >change. > > >>Isn't economics wonderful? >> >> > >To be expected with yesterdays announcement by IPG of a 60 day state of >emergency. Bush will get done what needs to be done, they'll have >elections in January, and things will get better. Meanwhile the >international left will use its assets to leverage as much damage on >the US financially as it can. > > > What a laugh. We are doing a fine job of damaging our own economy and have been for decades. It is not an "international left" conspiracy if the economic chickens come home to roost. Both "left" and "right" have practiced disasterous economic policies for far too long in this country. Mr. Bush in particular has grossly added to the huge debt burden of this country. >Financial pressure is about all they can do, really. They don't have >the military might or will to do anything. Switzerland could come up >with a larger army in 24 hours than Germany could draft together in 6 months. > > So might makes right heh? -s From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 9 18:42:14 2004 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:42:14 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20041108045051.01b2d750@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac> <470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20041108045051.01b2d750@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41910F86.5020209@mac.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 02:33 AM 11/8/2004 -0800, Samantha wrote: > >> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:14:24 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 >> wrote: >> > Olga, I couldn't agree more on what you say here, but the fact is, >> he has won. >> >> He squeaked by. Unfortunately in this country it is winner (no matter >> by how slim a margin) take all. > > > When you're voting for President, what method would you prefer? Surely > not *loser* take all? (That was 2000, same guy, right?) Surely not > rotating chairs during the period of office? Or abolishing the office > entirely in favor of a committee? > I have no easy solution. However pretending that GW Bush represents me or nearly 50% of Americans who voted against him is abhorrent as hell. -samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Nov 9 18:53:06 2004 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 10:53:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Scorecard In-Reply-To: <20041106225659.77565.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20041106225659.77565.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41911212.6090107@mac.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Damien Broderick wrote: > > >>But I can't see why keeping everyone healthy and youthful would >>`bankrupt the social security system'. On the >>contrary, I think this is one of the great benefits of any negligible >>senescence treatment, and a major motive for governments to invest >>heavily in its development *before* the shit hits the fan. >> >> > >You are extremely optimistic to think that a government is going to be >that smart and will actually implement such an optimistic solution. No, >they will find that people will be living to 120 with ease, you will >have three retired people for every working person. The word 'taxpayer' >will become synonymous with 'slave' in future society and will be >looked down on ("I remember when I was a tax payer, worst 40 years of >my life.") > > > Since I don't get the government paid off until mid-year and actually not until the end of Fall if you count all taxes and fees imposed by various governmental bodies, I hardly see that I am more of a slave with more retired people supposedly drawing from social security. But the solution to the SS mess is very clearly to dismantle it with as much compassion and care for those who have been led to depend on it and are already doing so or will be too soon to do something else as possible. The second part of the solution is to do something about the rising median age of the population. For that life extension, anti-aging and continuously improved medicine AND healthier life habits of the population are essential. We must increase the healthy and productive years if all we Boomers aren't going to be seen as a parasitical burden. - samantha From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Nov 9 19:00:15 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:00:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: The next race: America's space Prize In-Reply-To: <00de01c4c68a$d0b1b470$deebfb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20041109190015.50614.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > $50 million and a possible $1 billion in contracts > to the winner! > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=96&ncid=753&e=10&u=/space/20041108/sc_space/exclusiverulessetfor50millionamericasspaceprize Yeah, but look at the deadline. A number of people (myself included) have been advocating that the 2010 goal should be something short of orbit - say, a suborbital but significant distance point-to-point hop, like L.A. to Tokyo, or at least Mojave to Maine. Else one runs a severe risk that no one will show up for the challenge in time. (Especially with the added, though relatively minor, complication of docking capability.) From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 19:07:06 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:07:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: References: <1099685848.20563.452.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <948b11e04110911072f813c2@mail.gmail.com> When we speak of California you are already speaking of around 13% of the population of the country. Not exactly a negligible out-of-touch little sanctuary as nearly portrayed. I do not understand how anyone with open eyes to the many errors and horrors of the last four years attributable to Bush and his administration could possibly vote for the man. I think that is a very fair question that has nothing in the least to do with "living in a cultural bubble". I don't see how being in one of the swing states such as Ohio would make the decision to vote for a president with one of the worse records in our history more rational. I find that portraying those who don't understand what if any rational decision making was behind this win as living in some out of touch bubble is itself not in the least helpful to understanding and just adds more polarization. - samantha On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:56:01 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > I've kept my mouth shut here (but certainly not elsewhere -- on my blog, for instance) since the election. I've seen that the Europeans and the Americans who voted for Bush need to vent: They're tired and scared. But I can't go on without registering that things like this article are part of the problem. It's hysterical nonsense from people who live entirely encased in a cultural bubble that includes zero contact with anyone with whom they disagree. Frankly, all the preaching about tolerance and diversity from people who live in such bubbles seems ironic at least and outright hypocritical at worst. How many times have I read and heard in the last few days that people in New York and San Francisco and Seattle and London and Brussels can't understand how America elected Bush? They can't understand because they have no intercourse with the people who voted for Bush. Their conception of huge swaths of American culture is a shallow caricature that would be funny if it wasn! > 't so sad. > > I'm an atheist. I'm a libertarian. I don't suffer from a lack of literacy or even education; I know that humans evolved over a period of billions of years -- imagine that! I didn't have to vote for Bush because I live in the capital of Red State America, Houston, Texas, so I had the luxury of voting symbolically for the libertarians. But if I'd lived in Florida or Ohio, I'd have voted for Bush. My liberty to be irreligious and follow Enlightenment values has not been curtailed and, contrary to what one would think from reading the New York Times, the LA Times, watching all but one of the major American news networks or reading basically all of the press in Europe, my liberty to be irreligious is not in immediate danger. > > GB > http://gregburch.net/burchismo.html > From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Nov 9 19:08:30 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:08:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville In-Reply-To: <41910F86.5020209@mac.com> Message-ID: <20041109190830.63892.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Damien Broderick wrote: > > At 02:33 AM 11/8/2004 -0800, Samantha wrote: > >> He squeaked by. Unfortunately in this country it > is winner (no matter > >> by how slim a margin) take all. > > > > When you're voting for President, what method > would you prefer? Surely > > not *loser* take all? (That was 2000, same guy, > right?) Surely not > > rotating chairs during the period of office? Or > abolishing the office > > entirely in favor of a committee? > > I have no easy solution. However pretending that GW > Bush represents me > or nearly 50% of Americans who voted against him is > abhorrent as hell. "America is the worst democracy in the world, except for all the other democracies in the world." (For a slightly incorrect/outdated definition that includes republics.) I.e., it does not seem like anyone else has yet implemented a far better solution. From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 19:11:22 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:11:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'Unskilled jobs to go in 10 years' In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20041107210021.0198f770@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04110911115a3054b4@mail.gmail.com> The way to make it realistic is to count the number of domestic jobs of various types as against the number of people needing jobs and having various levels of skills. I believe you will find we have an increasing problem. -s On Mon, 8 Nov 2004 23:18:41 -0500 (EST), Rik van Riel wrote: > On Sun, 7 Nov 2004, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > There will be no jobs for unskilled workers in Britain within 10 years, > > the leading employers' organisation claims today. > > > > The prediction is based on the growth in "outsourcing" manufacturing and > > sales jobs abroad to economies where staff are hired at a fraction of > > the cost. > > "Why is the office so dirty?" > > "We outsourced our janitor to India" > > Lets face it, the people doing "high skill" jobs need to be > taken care of. They need to be fed, have their offices cleaned, > people need to take deliveries, send around packages, mow the > lawn, etc... > > I suspect quite a few of the "unskilled labor jobs" cannot be > outsourced, making the scare story above quite unrealistic. > > Rik > -- > "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. > Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, > by definition, not smart enough to debug it." - Brian W. Kernighan > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 9 19:23:18 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:23:18 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville References: <002801c4c234$a6950b10$6600a8c0@brainiac><470a3c520411032314346978ae@mail.gmail.com><948b11e04110802333d4c9f46@mail.gmail.com><6.1.1.1.0.20041108045051.01b2d750@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41910F86.5020209@mac.com> Message-ID: <012801c4c691$91e75130$deebfb44@kevin> I felt the same way when Clinto was president with his 43% victory in a three-way race. At least Bush has a majority. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samantha Atkins" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] No Joy in Mudville > Damien Broderick wrote: > > > At 02:33 AM 11/8/2004 -0800, Samantha wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:14:24 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > >> wrote: > >> > Olga, I couldn't agree more on what you say here, but the fact is, > >> he has won. > >> > >> He squeaked by. Unfortunately in this country it is winner (no matter > >> by how slim a margin) take all. > > > > > > When you're voting for President, what method would you prefer? Surely > > not *loser* take all? (That was 2000, same guy, right?) Surely not > > rotating chairs during the period of office? Or abolishing the office > > entirely in favor of a committee? > > > > I have no easy solution. However pretending that GW Bush represents me > or nearly 50% of Americans who voted against him is abhorrent as hell. > > -samantha > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Nov 9 19:40:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 11:40:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: The next race: America's space Prize In-Reply-To: <20041109190015.50614.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041109194055.90102.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > $50 million and a possible $1 billion in contracts > > to the winner! > > > http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=96&ncid=753&e=10&u=/space/20041108/sc_space/exclusiverulessetfor50millionamericasspaceprize > > Yeah, but look at the deadline. A number of people > (myself included) have been advocating that the 2010 > goal should be something short of orbit - say, a > suborbital but significant distance point-to-point > hop, like L.A. to Tokyo, or at least Mojave to Maine. > Else one runs a severe risk that no one will show up > for the challenge in time. (Especially with the > added, > though relatively minor, complication of docking > capability.) An LA to Tokyo hop is of such significance (you need to reach at least mach 16 to do it ballistically) that if you can reach that its not much tougher to go into orbit. Bigelow's market isn't in Tokyo, its market is in orbit. Bigelow doesn't, therefore, have an interest in getting to Tokyo, unless you can prove it will get rich customers to his launch site quicker to get them into orbit for his space hotel. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Nov 9 19:46:22 2004 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:46:22 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election References: <1099685848.20563.452.camel@localhost> <948b11e04110911072f813c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <013101c4c694$cac8c030$deebfb44@kevin> This has nothing to do with living in a bubble. I think it is a matter of priorities. I think that if you asked, you would find that most people here agree that Bush has made some grave mistakes over the last few years. The real debate is whether or not Kerry would have made the same, or even larger mistakes when it comes to the interests of people in this country - (and the world) Personally I think that Kerry, in the same situation as Bush, would have done the same thing. In fact, he supported it. I also see Kerry as unpredictable due to his flip-flop nature and desire to be everything to everyone. This unpredictability means to me that he would drag us into an even greater mess as he tried to capitulate to every country in the world and make everyone happy...which is impossible and usually ends up in pissing everyone off and putting you right back where you started. The opinions of other nations should not be ignored, but at the same time, they are not the deciding factor. Our president is the president of the United States of America, not the president of the world. He doesn;t answer to everyone else. His job is to look after the interests of the US. His job description does not include doing what is best for China, or India, or Pakistan, or Iraq. His job is to protect America. If someone intentionally threatens, pretends to have the capability, is wanred in advance, and chooses not to back down, then you go to war. This war was of Saddam's doing, not Bush's. If Saddam wanted to protect his people, he could have quit acting like a criminal. He wouldn;t have hid military equipment behind civilians. For some reason, you think of Bush as a warmonger who wanted to go to war and kill civilians. You treat this as if Kerry would have done differently. You put the blame of the war squarely on Bush's shoulders. Here is where you are making your mistake. Your priorities are the lives of foreign civilians over the protection of the US civilians against people like Saddam who clearly want to kill us. They say so at every opportunity and do so when gioven the chance. Let me restate this....12 UN resolutions...all ignored. Who's fault is this war again? I can understand your reason for not supporting Kerry, but I don;t think you have made an honest attempt to understand why some of us support Bush. Or maybe we haven't made it clear enough. Maybe this will help. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samantha Atkins" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 1:07 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election > When we speak of California you are already speaking of around 13% of > the population of the country. Not exactly a negligible out-of-touch > little sanctuary as nearly portrayed. > > I do not understand how anyone with open eyes to the many errors and > horrors of the last four years attributable to Bush and his > administration could possibly vote for the man. I think that is a > very fair question that has nothing in the least to do with "living in > a cultural bubble". I don't see how being in one of the swing states > such as Ohio would make the decision to vote for a president with one > of the worse records in our history more rational. > > I find that portraying those who don't understand what if any rational > decision making was behind this win as living in some out of touch > bubble is itself not in the least helpful to understanding and just > adds more polarization. > > - samantha > > > > On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 18:56:01 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > I've kept my mouth shut here (but certainly not elsewhere -- on my blog, for instance) since the election. I've seen that the Europeans and the Americans who voted for Bush need to vent: They're tired and scared. But I can't go on without registering that things like this article are part of the problem. It's hysterical nonsense from people who live entirely encased in a cultural bubble that includes zero contact with anyone with whom they disagree. Frankly, all the preaching about tolerance and diversity from people who live in such bubbles seems ironic at least and outright hypocritical at worst. How many times have I read and heard in the last few days that people in New York and San Francisco and Seattle and London and Brussels can't understand how America elected Bush? They can't understand because they have no intercourse with the people who voted for Bush. Their conception of huge swaths of American culture is a shallow caricature that would be funny if it wa! > sn! > > 't so sad. > > > > I'm an atheist. I'm a libertarian. I don't suffer from a lack of literacy or even education; I know that humans evolved over a period of billions of years -- imagine that! I didn't have to vote for Bush because I live in the capital of Red State America, Houston, Texas, so I had the luxury of voting symbolically for the libertarians. But if I'd lived in Florida or Ohio, I'd have voted for Bush. My liberty to be irreligious and follow Enlightenment values has not been curtailed and, contrary to what one would think from reading the New York Times, the LA Times, watching all but one of the major American news networks or reading basically all of the press in Europe, my liberty to be irreligious is not in immediate danger. > > > > GB > > http://gregburch.net/burchismo.html > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Nov 9 20:01:08 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:01:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: <948b11e04110911072f813c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20041109200108.98170.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > When we speak of California you are already speaking of around 13% of > the population of the country. Not exactly a negligible out-of-touch > little sanctuary as nearly portrayed. http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm Not even all of california, or even most or half. It is clear from the county vote map that most Kerry support is enclaved in parts of the country which are a small segment of the nation. In particular, those who most loudly declaim, "I don't know anybody who voted for Bush" are speaking from locales which are so heavily democrat that they cannot hope to have a fair and balanced idea of what cross-sectional America thinks without getting out of their enclaves for significant periods of time (and not spending it in another democrat enclave). When I talk with my Seattle friends, it is rather offensive to hear the vituperative language they use towards Bush, the 'facts' they claim to have seen on their local media. It is clear they are enclaved to a significant degree, mentally as much as anything. Their vacations to 'the country' are to Sun Valley, Lake Chelan, and Whistler, BC: i.e. isolated liberal resort enclaves. It appears my republican friends, wherever they are, are much better traveled, acculturated, and tolerant of divergent opinions, while my liberal friends are provincial, narrow minded, intolerant, petty, spiteful, mean, vengeful, and disbelieving. Liberals pretend to an elitism that only exists in university degrees, publishing records, etc. and not to diversity, cultural exposure, etc. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From pharos at gmail.com Tue Nov 9 20:17:16 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 20:17:16 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: <20041109200108.98170.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <948b11e04110911072f813c2@mail.gmail.com> <20041109200108.98170.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:01:08 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > When I talk with my Seattle friends, it is rather offensive to hear the > vituperative language they use towards Bush, the 'facts' they claim to > have seen on their local media. It is clear they are enclaved to a > significant degree, mentally as much as anything. Their vacations to > 'the country' are to Sun Valley, Lake Chelan, and Whistler, BC: i.e. > isolated liberal resort enclaves. > Agreed. Try reading Tom Wolfe, on the elite that got lost in middle America 'Talk to someone in Cincinnati? Are you crazy?'. . . and so the Democrats blew it Or, "The future is Republican - Bush has policies that could keep his party in power for decades, says Michael Barone" I think they are telling it like it is. BillK From hal at finney.org Tue Nov 9 20:34:25 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 12:34:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election Message-ID: <20041109203425.AED9257E2A@finney.org> Today there is no excuse for anyone to live in an ideological enclave. We should all be making an effort to expose ourselves to a wide range of political views. It is as easy as visiting a good mix of web logs and other sites. Perhaps people could post their favorite liberal/conservative/other blogs for keeping themselves exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints. Hal From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Nov 9 21:28:16 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:28:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: The next race: America's space Prize In-Reply-To: <20041109194055.90102.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20041109212816.55673.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Yeah, but look at the deadline. A number of > people > > (myself included) have been advocating that the > 2010 > > goal should be something short of orbit - say, a > > suborbital but significant distance point-to-point > > hop, like L.A. to Tokyo, or at least Mojave to > Maine. > > Else one runs a severe risk that no one will show > up > > for the challenge in time. (Especially with the > > added, > > though relatively minor, complication of docking > > capability.) > > An LA to Tokyo hop is of such significance (you need > to reach at least > mach 16 to do it ballistically) that if you can > reach that its not much > tougher to go into orbit. Bigelow's market isn't in > Tokyo, its market > is in orbit. Bigelow doesn't, therefore, have an > interest in getting to > Tokyo, unless you can prove it will get rich > customers to his launch > site quicker to get them into orbit for his space > hotel. Let me rephrase, then: With the current deadline, there is a very high risk that no one will even seriously try to claim the prize by 2010 (if anyone does, it will be semi-obvious fraudsters like the da Vinci team was on the first X Prize: putting out press releases and promises but little if any actual flights and hardware). The resulting disappointment will likely leave the task undone through 2015, assuming no other funding effort comes to the rescue. On the other hand, sponsor a midway goal at 2010 and then the full thing at 2015, and the odds are significantly increased that service can start around 2015 - which makes it worthwhile even if the midway goal by itself is of marginal, maybe even zero, direct value to Bigelow. So, no, it doesn't matter that he doesn't want to go to Tokyo. Just pick any two reasonably accessible points a good distance apart - or even let the contestants pick their own launch and landing sites, so long as they are at least X kilometers apart. (To pick an extreme example, most contestants would view Iraq to Singapore as unfeasable even if they could do the much longer L.A. to Tokyo trip. But who knows, there might be a group with connections that could find usable launch and landing sites in those two areas. Very unlikely, especially since this contest is for American companies only, but it doesn't cost anything to allow it.) From steve365 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 9 22:01:21 2004 From: steve365 at btinternet.com (Stephen Davies) Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 22:01:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Enlightenment and the election In-Reply-To: <20041109203425.AED9257E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20041109220121.22681.qmail@web86106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Absolutely right. I make a deliberate effort to investigate writings and arguments that I find ideologically uncongenial. If you don't you end up intellectually lazy and slack and, most importantly, unaware of the real nature of the world and society you live in (as the Democrats have found out). You may decide like Dorothy Parker "This is not a book to be set aside lightly. It should be hurled with great force" but at least it reminds you of what you're up against. Like Greg I think a lot of the reaction to the result is hysterical and OTT, and I'm not a Bush fan at all. For heavens sake it's only four years (unlike the UK where a PM really can go on and on and on...) and the various checks built into the system are still there. I think a great many people clearly do only read or watch or listen to stuff that confirms their predilictions and are very painfully surprised when they get a wack from reality. Sadly the academic profession is particularly prone to this. Hal Finney wrote: Today there is no excuse for anyone to live in an ideological enclave. We should all be making an effort to expose o