[extropy-chat] Krugman on the state of play

Jeff Davis jrd1415 at yahoo.com
Mon Oct 4 22:49:04 UTC 2004


On Fri, 1 Oct 2004 14:52:49 -0500, Kevin Freels
<megaquark at hotmail.com> wrote:

> By the way. Why is it that people think that
"torture" and "abuse" are the same thing? 

Granted there is a whole range of bad things that a
jailer or interrogator can do to a "detainee".  And
you could reasonably set up a scale of badness, with
"abuse" lower on the scale than "torture".  But I
don't think this is really what motivates your
comment.  You just want some way to weasel out from
under the implications of the acts performed at abu
Ghraib.  We do cherish and strain against any
besmirchment of our self-image as God-blessed
Americans, now don't we? 

> Torture is what Saddam did.

Yup.  That's exactly how it's defined.  When "they" do
it, it's torture, when "we" do it, it's,... hi jinx,
unintentional, unfortunate.  They, BY DEFINITION, are
the bad guys.  So naturally, they do bad things, they
torture.  We, BY DEFINITION, are the good guys, we do
only good things, so it's impossible that we would
torture,...how could we?  But those photographs--those
damned and damning photographs--seem to tell another
story.  And according to Seymour Hirsch there are more
photos and worse photos, and videos.  But since we
haven't seen them, they don't exist.  If a tree falls
in the forest, falls on you in the forest, and there
is no one there to see it happen, do you still feel
the pain?  No photos, no pain.  Riiiiight. 

> Our prisoners in Abu Ghraib were abused. I am not
condoning this behavior, but it's not like these
prisoners were being beheaded with a knife, ...

A couple of weeks ago Rumsfeld tried the same
grotesquely bogus comparison.  --"What do you mean,
"bogus"?  Anyone can see that this is obviously
true."--  Does the detainee who dies during
interrogation--the army has gone public with ~30 such
deaths--suffer more or less terror and torment than
the guy who gets beheaded.  Simply put, its hours if 
not days in the former case vs 20 seconds in the
latter case.  Then your dead.

The real problem with the beheadings--"our"
problem--is that the poor schmo getting his head cut
off is one of "ours".  In addition the horrible and
savage act is done deliberately, and in "our" face,
while "we" sit around simultaneously furious and
utterly helpless.  Which, of course, is the point.  No
amount of aircraft carriers, nukes, or smart bombs can
protect you from payback.  Suck it up.  

"We" blast, rip, or burn to death 15-30 thousand
civilians and it's no big deal, but "they" saw off one
guy's head and all of a sudden it's "the horror, the
horror".  Welcome back to reality, and your next
chance to get it right.

The way to end the terror is to put a lease and choke
chain on the US foreign policy elite in general, and
to put the neocons, Kissinger, Pinochet, and all those

ex-banana republican dictators currently living in
Miami--put 'em all in the cell block with Noriega and
Saddam.  

Then stay the course. Make it THE WAY THINGS ARE that
the law is no cobweb.

Best, Jeff Davis

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of
atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a
remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."

                            George Orwell

"Men occasionally stumble over the truth, 
    but most pick themselves up and hurry off 
    as if nothing had happened."
                    Winston Churchill


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