From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 02:14:32 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:14:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040831122718.01a86ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <03b201c48fc9$6edc3420$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Damien Broderick > Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead > > > It's just very, very calm. > > Is it the weather? Not the Olympics, for dog's sake? > > No, I don't have anything interesting to add either. > > Damien Broderick > [snooooze...] We are listening to Ahhhhnold. This guy brings tears to my eyes. He sounds so libertarian, ya gotta love him. {8-] spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 1 02:22:34 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:34 +1000 Subject: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense) References: <200408310604.i7V64Mn14256@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <001101c48fca$8ac441e0$362c2dcb@homepc> "KPJ" wrote: > There exists a number of humans who use the power of deadly > force to back their control over some specific territory. Some > 60 earth years ago, a number of these humans decided to force > other humans to fight in an event usually called World War II. > > After this event ended, those humans who made the other > humans lose the control of their territory ("the victors") decided > to form an organization with a written set of rules. They named > the organization United Nations and called the written rules a > "charter". > > According to these rules humans who represent the humans who > rule over some of specific territories shall meet, and humans > representing some of these rulers have more to say over the > proceedings of the organization. > When the rulers of those territories decide that they do not want > follow the written rules of the organization, which humans in > which courts would prosecute them for not following those rules? Its hard to answer this as a hypothetical because details that you haven't provided matter. What is a ruler? A President elected for a 4 year term isn't a ruler of the same sort as the head of state of China. I think it is useful to consider member nations at the UN as falling into three different classes. Ordinary members, permanent security council members except the US, and the US alone as a special case. Ordinary members. If these sign treaties then disputes can be taken to the ICJ and the ICJ will make a ruling and if the members don't want to comply with it the Security Council MAY enforce compliance. I don't know (I am ignorant of) how often this process would have been used during the Cold War as the USSR and the US would have been far more likely to slant every issue their way via use of the veto. Permanent Security Council members. These are effectively immune from having UN authorised force used on them under ANY circumstances for the simple reason that they can veto the resolution that would be needed to authorise that force. PSC members may still have political or moral force or international outrage directed against them if they are thought by the citizens of other countries to have misbehaved but that is not legal force (ie not UN authorised force). The US - as sole remaining military superpower. The US is now in a class of its own in my opinion because it is the only member nation powerful enough to say to the UN that it will revoke the UN if the UN fails to perform its mandated tasks of maintaining international peace and security. The US can choose whether the world lives under conditions of honour or whether the foreseeable future is just about 'might makes right'. By the US here I mean US citizens voting and effecting the constitutions of their governments. No war, not even a just war could legally (ie legally under the UN Charter) be declared on the US as the US would veto it. Same for the other big 5. So in practice the only thing that is policing a US President that breaks international law are US citizens if they so choose too. The US citizens are the only ones that can remove a US President lawfully - at an election - or possible through impeachment which is pretty unlikely. It might be possible under some circumstances to hold a President to legal account under US domestic law for breaking international law (and in so doing harming US citizens that were relying on it), but I don't know about that. > - - - - - > > I believe the rulers sending representatives to the Security Council > to have act as the ultimate court over matters of the organization. > If they decide to not follow the written rules, then that's that. In societies of primates that watch each other intently and rotate our leaders from time to time there are ALWAYS consequences of being SEEN to have broken the rules. Not everyone who sees a lawbreaker cares about the victum but they keep a good eye on the perpetrator out of healthy self interest. Brett Paatsch From brian at posthuman.com Wed Sep 1 02:32:49 2004 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:32:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <03b201c48fc9$6edc3420$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <03b201c48fc9$6edc3420$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413534D1.2070802@posthuman.com> Spike wrote: > > We are listening to Ahhhhnold. This guy brings > tears to my eyes. He sounds so libertarian, > ya gotta love him. {8-] spike > Well he is from Austria... :-) -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 03:18:04 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:18:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <7D7FF510-F9E1-11D8-8A37-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/08/29/intel.chips.ap/index.html From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 1 05:23:01 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:23:01 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Academies lobby on cloning Message-ID: <006901c48fe3$c013d590$362c2dcb@homepc> Ahead of a UN debate in October, science academies support therapeutic cloning http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040831/02 "The United Nations (UN) General Assembly is expected to revisit the vexed issue of a convention on human cloning this fall, with a vote tentatively scheduled for October 21-22." .. "The UN's debates on cloning in the recent years have been marked by bitter division, fundamental disagreements, and wrangling. Last year, countries rallied around two proposals-one from Costa Rica, supported by the United States, which called for a total ban, and another tabled by Belgium, which urged a ban on reproductive, but not therapeutic, cloning." --- Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vlora21 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:02:01 2004 From: vlora21 at hotmail.com (Vlora Hoti) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:02:01 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:15:47 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:15:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:18:04 -0700, Spike wrote: > Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/08/29/intel.chips.ap/index.html > Yes, but don't get over-excited by hype from Intel. Recently Intel has found it much easier to produce new roadmaps than actual product. These 65nm process chips won't be in volume production till mid-2006. AMD seems to be plugging away producing new chips while Intel is still redesigning. See: Besides, who needs faster chips anyway? (Apart from Doom3 gamers, that is ;) ) BillK From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 06:32:29 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:32:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03ec01c48fed$74575c80$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:18:04 -0700, Spike wrote: > > Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/08/29/intel.chips.ap/index.html > > ... > > AMD seems to be plugging away producing new chips while Intel is still > redesigning. See: > >Besides, who needs faster chips anyway? >(Apart from Doom3 gamers, that is ;) BillK Math geeks. Giant prime number searchers. Microsloth users. Matlab users. SETI at homers. Protein folders. When it comes to speed, more Moore is *always* better, and will be for the foreseeable. spike ps This is cool tho, I have been cheering for AMD for a long time, not just because they are my neighbors. Always give the big guy some tough competition, so he will be all that he can be. Competition helps everyone excel. s From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 06:36:31 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:36:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> Spike wrote: >Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > They might possibly be able to produce more power full chips. But will there still be a reason to buy them? My motherboard recently came to a halt, and I had to choose whether if I should upgrade the entire machine, or just the motherboard. I choose the motherboard only solution, as my 1.2 GHz machine is already plenty fast for my needs. I can watch and edit video at professional quality, compose music, play a few games and generally do what I need to. So why should I buy a faster chip at a higher price? Generally I believe there is natural technological plateau for most of the current technological tasks. bussines (text editing/spreadsheets) -> music -> video -> vr games etc. Bussines computers have already been fast enough for a while for typical use. We will soon have chips at a level where all current tasks can be done on a cheap system. Why then bother to pay more? I think that new technology is needed before there will be a great need for much faster computers. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 07:20:57 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:50:57 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:36:31 +0200, Max M wrote: > Spike wrote: > > >Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > > > > They might possibly be able to produce more power full chips. But will > there still be a reason to buy them? > > My motherboard recently came to a halt, and I had to choose whether if I > should upgrade the entire machine, or just the motherboard. > > I choose the motherboard only solution, as my 1.2 GHz machine is already > plenty fast for my needs. > > I can watch and edit video at professional quality, compose music, play > a few games and generally do what I need to. So why should I buy a > faster chip at a higher price? > > Generally I believe there is natural technological plateau for most of > the current technological tasks. > > bussines (text editing/spreadsheets) -> music -> video -> vr games etc. > > Bussines computers have already been fast enough for a while for typical > use. We will soon have chips at a level where all current tasks can be > done on a cheap system. Why then bother to pay more? > > I think that new technology is needed before there will be a great need > for much faster computers. > > regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark > I agree that we are at the boundary for a lot of current tasks. I believe we are more than capable of using more processor speed, but we have a newish bottleneck, which is bandwidth. When we can have a couple more orders of magnitude of (low latency) bandwidth we'll be able to see very different applications (video things? Dunno, anyone?), which will result in our machines being flooded relatively constantly with vast amounts of data. Then we'll have a need for bigger processors to cope with the flood. Currently I more than use the (big) processors I have, but that's because I use VMWare virtual machines extensively to simulate corporate networks on my dev box. There are always new & useful ways to waste excess resources and solve previously thorny problems. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 07:53:50 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:53:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> Emlyn wrote: >On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:36:31 +0200, Max M wrote: > > >When we can have a couple more orders of magnitude of (low latency) >bandwidth we'll be able to see very different applications (video >things? Dunno, anyone?), which will result in our machines being >flooded relatively constantly with vast amounts of data. Then we'll >have a need for bigger processors to cope with the flood. > I don't think video will ever be a popular method of comunicating, compared to eg. email. It is far to expensive to produce video in any kind of meaningfull quality. But then again, technology usually blindside us, so video eqiuped cellular phones might make it relevant. But then again, my current computer can easily handle the video quality that the phones can spew out for the next several years. I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im tired of cleaning the house and garden. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 08:20:58 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 01:20:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <7a32170504090101202cd5d44e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:53:50 +0200, Max M wrote: > > I don't think video will ever be a popular method of comunicating, > compared to eg. email. It is far to expensive to produce video in any > kind of meaningfull quality. > > But then again, technology usually blindside us, so video eqiuped > cellular phones might make it relevant. But then again, my current > computer can easily handle the video quality that the phones can spew > out for the next several years. > > I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster > processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im > tired of cleaning the house and garden. Those who think we don't need faster CPU's must be using a non-Micro$oft OS. Have you read what Redmond has planned for the next version of Windows? A completely new file system, all-graphics all the time, active security and God-knows-what-all constantly churning up CPU cycles in the background, and that doesn't even take into account the resource hogging changes they probably have planned for the next Office suite. But, for now, you're right. I have a 2.53 ghz P4 with a gig of RAM that can handle voice recognition, email, web surfing, word processing, PIM and time and billing software all cranking away simultaneously with no problem. But has anyone else noticed it seems like Moore's law is starting to slow down. Wasn't it supposed to double processing power every 18 months or so? I bought my 2.53 ghz box from Dell about 2 years ago. Where are the 5 ghz chips?? Last I checked they had barely cracked 3.5 ghz. My rule of thumb is I can't by a new PC until they're selling CPU's that run at twice the clock speed of my current machine. Yeah, my computer does what I need but I admit it, I'm a speed freak. Maybe next time I'll get a dual monitor and see just how many things I can *really* do at the same time... P.S. Thanks again to Emlyn for my brand new gmail account! From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 08:29:56 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:29:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 09:53:50AM +0200, Max M wrote: > I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster > processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im I think there is a world market for maybe five computers. --- T. J. Watson 640K ought to be enough for everybody. --- Bill Gates Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop. Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone performance. Need I to go on? Nevermind that Moore is not about performance, but integration density. Performance (as measured by benchmarks) doesn't follow that nice linear semilog plots. <-- How often need I say this sentence until people here stop using Moore as sloppy shorthand for faster computers? > tired of cleaning the house and garden. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 08:45:50 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:45:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090101202cd5d44e@mail.gmail.com> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <7a32170504090101202cd5d44e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040901084545.GS1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 01:20:58AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Those who think we don't need faster CPU's must be using a > non-Micro$oft OS. Have you read what Redmond has planned for the next What has CPU speed to do with user experience? My slowest machine (G4 iBook) has the best user experience by a far margin. My fastest machine (Athlon64) bites the bag both with XP and FC2 x86_64. > version of Windows? A completely new file system, all-graphics all WinFS won't be in Longhorn. But, then, Reiser4 takes even more CPU than Reiser3. Why are we still having file systems, for god's sake? This is 2004. Hello? > the time, active security and God-knows-what-all constantly churning Smart packet filters take up essentially no CPU. At least, at GBit Ethernet data rates. > up CPU cycles in the background, and that doesn't even take into > account the resource hogging changes they probably have planned for > the next Office suite. Yeah, gimme the paperclip in 3d, and a 3d desktop with rotating translucent windows. Not. > But, for now, you're right. I have a 2.53 ghz P4 with a gig of RAM > that can handle voice recognition, email, web surfing, word I am yet to see something one could call voice recognition. If I'm lucky, we'll have real voice recognition a decade downstream. Make that rather two decades. > processing, PIM and time and billing software all cranking away > simultaneously with no problem. But has anyone else noticed it seems Why are there video drops if the terminal scrolls? Why do I notice I/O in stuff requiring QoS? This is a solved problem since early 1960s. > like Moore's law is starting to slow down. Wasn't it supposed to No, Moore's on track. You must be confusing something here. > double processing power every 18 months or so? I bought my 2.53 ghz CAN SOMEONE PLEASE FOR A CHANGE NOT CONFUSE MOORE WITH COMPUTER PERFORMANCE? THANKS. I realize this list has lost its last traces of geek cred half a decade ago, but we at least we can make the effort, can't we? That was a rhetorical question, unfortunately. All the people who'd care have left long ago. > box from Dell about 2 years ago. Where are the 5 ghz chips?? Last I > checked they had barely cracked 3.5 ghz. My rule of thumb is I can't > by a new PC until they're selling CPU's that run at twice the clock > speed of my current machine. Yeah, my computer does what I need but I What has clock speed to do with computer performance? > admit it, I'm a speed freak. Maybe next time I'll get a dual monitor > and see just how many things I can *really* do at the same time... How do you think Doom 3 fares with a 600 dpi 21"? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 1 09:01:24 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:01:24 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY><41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk><710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com><4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <015301c49002$42108610$362c2dcb@homepc> Eugen wrote: > Current machines are too slow for real time body capturing from video. This is, I think, an area where progress on life-enhancing tech could be most accelerated. Spike mentioned protein folding, but any sort of modelling and graphical touring of biological and cellular processes that can put cheaper richer education tools in front of more people is likely to be all too the good. Humans learn faster with richer sources of information than text books, dissection labs and microscopes etc. We are fighting the wrong war on the wrong terror the wrong way. We should be putting visually rich and accurate integratable virtual learning environments in front of school kids. Let them see 3D graphical models of cells functioning normally and going cancerous. Let them play not just with 2D pictures at various scales but with systems, organs, tissues, cells. There is a war against a common enemy (disease) that has been going on for all of human history and one of the reasons we are so bad at fighting it is because we are fighting blind. The sort of tools we have for modelling cellular and subcellular processes are still far less than they could be and are still not distributed widely enough. Faster computers could give us eyes to see where we can't currently see. We know how to look we just haven't yet worked out what is worth looking at. Brett Paatsch From alito at organicrobot.com Wed Sep 1 10:02:21 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:02:21 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 10:29 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. Well, something's encoding them in real time, otherwise there would be no live transmission. Too slow for PC encoding maybe (but only if you don't have a suitable card i assume) > Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. I don't think there is any compiled C version of eclipse available (gcj is compiled java, and not even faster than interpreted java at that) (or maybe we are talking about different Eclipse's). (If i'm wrong, please do post a url) > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop > . This is independent of machine speed (but not independent of setup. my X runs fine) > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) Current crude FPSs run perfectly fine in current top of the line computers (saw it demonstrated nicely a couple of weeks ago. i've been out of touch from the gaming world for a number of years now, but they are doing fine without me. crude's come a long way). You must mean next gen fine FPSs. > Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. too slow for it to be solved in about a year and a half by mostly uni students. > Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. > Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone > performance. > Again, independent of machine speed. At all times desktop will be faster than mobile phones. But current mobile phones kick the shit out of 286s. > Need I to go on? > No. I agree completely with the intent of the message. alejandro From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 10:07:27 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:07:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:29:56 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. > Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop. > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) > Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. > Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. > Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone > performance. > > Need I to go on? > I think you need to define desktop computer a bit more clearly here. Yes, developer workstations will always want more processing power, but they are a small part of the market. Television and DVD players are a much better medium for watching video on. We may have stopped watching 100 channels of rubbish on TV, but the mass population haven't. High volume video is actually a brain-numbing experience. You stop thinking when you watch it. Do you really want to put that on your pc? Keen gamers will spend more on the latest graphics card than they spent on the computer. The DARPA challenge (and other AI) fails because we don't yet know how to write the requisite programs - not for lack of processing power. Yes, if Intel make better processors, then they will appear in all the computers we buy, because we won't have any choice. But will the majority of users *need* more processing power? I doubt it. More bandwidth, more on-line storage and more backup storage, - yes please! BillK From amara at amara.com Wed Sep 1 11:31:08 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:31:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Grants for 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations Message-ID: This might be useful to some people here... http://www.google.com/grants/ Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "I do not know." -- Joseph Louis Lagrange [summarizing his life's work] From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 10:41:28 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:41:28 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040901104128.GW1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 11:07:27AM +0100, BillK wrote: > I think you need to define desktop computer a bit more clearly here. Easy: the usual machine you pick up at the retailer for 1-2 k$. It's the same hardware that's being used for supercomputer clusters, plus magic interconnect (which doubles the price of each node). > Yes, developer workstations will always want more processing power, No, developer do fine on office-grade machines, actually. If software build is the bottleneck, you can always farm that out on a cluster. Few other tasks are such trivially parallelizable as a software build. > but they are a small part of the market. Gaming drives the high end part of the market. Absolute performance, not crunch/Wattage. Embedded DSP has giant volume, but trails performance/processes. Look at recommended hardware requirements for current top of the line codec playback. > Television and DVD players are a much better medium for watching video > on. We may have stopped watching 100 channels of rubbish on TV, but The display part is irrelevant, it's the decoding of the video stream it's where it's at. Codecs are in rapid flux, and hardware implementations are too inflexible. > the mass population haven't. High volume video is actually a > brain-numbing experience. You stop thinking when you watch it. Do you > really want to put that on your pc? I don't own/watch TV. I do watch DVD movies, though. One of the flat panels doubles as video (my 100$ DVD player has VGA output). > Keen gamers will spend more on the latest graphics card than they > spent on the computer. You'll need top line CPU+memory as well as a top line accelerator to achieve record frames per second. 3d graphics acceleration is useless for game AI. > The DARPA challenge (and other AI) fails because we don't yet know how > to write the requisite programs - not for lack of processing power. Each task has a minumum computational complexity. You can afford being sloppy by throwing more hardware at it, or vice versa. Up to a point. Realtime navigation in cluttered environments takes considerably more resources than a top line PC (more than a cluster of those, actually). How many generations down the curve do you need to package that into a small and tough enough footprint on small enough energy budget for automative applications? > Yes, if Intel make better processors, then they will appear in all the > computers we buy, because we won't have any choice. But will the I presume you mean Intel=AMD in above sentence. It doesn't matter on the long run. > majority of users *need* more processing power? I doubt it. Office users don't. At least not yet. Gamers do, most assuredly. Do you realize who's driving the sales in high-performance systems? > More bandwidth, more on-line storage and more backup storage, - yes please! Bandwidth is an infrastructure issue. 1 GBps to each home would be no problem with current technology, and 10 GBps is almost there. Storage size, not really, though a TByte RAID looks tight for a HDTV movie library. Something solid state with TByte throughput for about the same price, minus seek latency would be nice, though. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 11:33:48 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:33:48 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <4135B39C.1020804@mail.tele.dk> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 09:53:50AM +0200, Max M wrote: > > >>I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster >>processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im >> >> >Current machines are too slow for ... > I completely agree that there will always be a need for more performance, and that need will never stop. What I am worrying about is whether it will be affordable. Each new CPU generation fab doubles the cost. This has been covered by a higher usefulness of faster CPU's. More tasks could be solved for more people. There need to be a *big* market to cover the cost of a fab. But if the CPU production cost rises and the demand lowers, due to lack of new technology that can use the power for anything a mass market cares about. Then fewer new fabs will be built, and the development will take another direction. It's absolutely a possibility. What can offset it, is that it will be easier to implement new software on more powerful processors. Using higher level languages and better tools. But the new technologies are not as obvious as before, as all the low hanging fruits have been picked already. Bussines automation, multimedia, games etc. regards Max M From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 12:09:31 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:09:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 08:02:21PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. > > Well, something's encoding them in real time, otherwise there would be No, coding/decoding resources are asymmetrical. H.264 realtime HDTV encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, haven't looked), it doesn't matter. What matters is that how much hardware I need to replay H.264 off vanilla DVD or broadband video stream at the user end, codec's/container's sundry bells and whistles included, of course. > no live transmission. Too slow for PC encoding maybe (but only if you > don't have a suitable card i assume) By the time you can buy a card for H.264 realtime encoding the codec will be thoroughly obsolete. Synthesizing fully immersive realtime 3d environments for each viewer will be required, then. With current CPU you'd be hard pressed to render immersive audio (not even with physical modelling) aspect of that. Video? Oooh boy... > > Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. > > I don't think there is any compiled C version of eclipse available (gcj > is compiled java, and not even faster than interpreted java at that) (or > maybe we are talking about different Eclipse's). (If i'm wrong, please > do post a url) There's no native version of Eclipse available, apert from gcj you've mentioned. What I meant equivalent execution times for the usual JIT Java. This will take at least 3-4 times the CPU speed, if not more. > > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop > > . > > This is independent of machine speed (but not independent of setup. my > X runs fine) I meant unmodified (no xfce) default Fedora Core 2 Gnome end user reaction times. It will take at least an order of magnitude faster CPU to render that at XP desktop speed, all other things being equal. > > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) > > Current crude FPSs run perfectly fine in current top of the line > computers (saw it demonstrated nicely a couple of weeks ago. i've been Haven't checked, I presume you'll drop below 50-60 fps if you enable every bell and whistle. > out of touch from the gaming world for a number of years now, but they > are doing fine without me. crude's come a long way). You must mean next > gen fine FPSs. This is what I've actually meant, yes. > > Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. > > too slow for it to be solved in about a year and a half by mostly uni > students. Agreed, but highway routine vehicle navigation with error rate low enough to be acceptable for insurers is distinctly beyond a machine hall full of megabucks worth of current state of the art in beowulfery. DARPA's challenge is easier in comparison, grad students or no. They will manage that, in the next race, or the next after the next one, eventually. > > Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. > > Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone > > performance. > > > Again, independent of machine speed. At all times desktop will be > faster than mobile phones. But current mobile phones kick the shit out > of 286s. Absolutely. But there are lots of applications currently only available on desktops which would be very useful on a wearable platform, with the limited footprint, especially energetically. By the time 2 GHz dual Opterons fit into your shirt pocket (without burning a hole in your skin), how many desktop generation years have passed in the land? > > Need I to go on? > > > No. I agree completely with the intent of the message. Good for you! :) -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 12:09:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 4. Re: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as In-Reply-To: <63C99F56-FB81-11D8-BB08-000393530B86@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- maya gingery wrote: > IN reply: > > If you are inferring that Clinton's and Kerry's support of dialogue > directed toward making this world a safer place for EVERYONE is worse > than Bush's catastrophic EGoWAR that is NOT making this world a safer > place for ANYONE (say again, how much did Greece spend on security > for > the Olympics?), then I suggest you get off your pedestal and get some > help for your paranoid delusions. The world does not need people > like you. I suppose you think Abu Ghraib was just the boys and girls > having some fun. No problem with small arms down there! Guns? > That's for wimps. Let's do performance art! Last I checked, both Afghanistan and Iraq had teams participating at the Olympics for the first time in many years, and the first time ever free of the threat of torture as punishment for poor performance. "Those who would trade some degree of liberty for greater security deserve neither liberty, nor security." - Benjamin Franklin I'd rather live in a dangerous but free world than one that is safe but unfree. "Live free or die" as the saying goes. I'd also suggest that Greece would have had to spend less on security if they'd not been a clusterfuck up until a year before the event, and been threatened by the IOC with revokation of the games. "Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" as my first sergeant once said. Oh, and they still couldn't keep the crowning event, the marathon, from being bunged up by a crazed defrocked priest who abducted the leading runner off the course. Poor fellow only came in 3rd after that. Just goes to show that even in a totally fascist state, you can never have perfect security... "The world doesn't need people like you"???? Is that some sort of threat? Beg to differ, and not to toot my own horn, but I've likely saved more lives directly, done more good for the environment through my inventions, and helped to expand liberty for more people in this world than you could ever dream of, and I will continue to do the same into the future. While dummies like you like to yak, people like me act, and make a difference. Performance art never ended a war, stopped a genocide, saved a life, created liberty, or started a revolution, unless you count actually doing those things as performance art. If you do, I am an A-lister... so thanks anyways for your criticism, but I get plenty of rave reviews. Ta ta. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Sep 1 14:44:25 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:44:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040901073938.02c50510@mail.earthlink.net> At 04:02 PM 9/1/04 +1000, dude wrote: >hey dude. i recently signed up for the extropy lailing list cos i am >doing a school assignment on it. i was basically told find out what you >can about extropy and extropians, and present it to the class. now i have >no idea what any of this stuff means. so, if you have the time,do you >think you could email a bit of an explanation, and recomend some readings >in relation to it? If you hang around this list for a while you will discover intriguing ideas about the future, new technologies, application of technologies, social issues, concerns about the world and our place in it, and a few jokes and off the wall topics here and there. If you want to learn more about the philosophy of Extropy, go to the website at http://www.extropy.org and read the material there, especially the Principles of Extropy. If you would like to know how we are planning to deal with some of the Big issues concerning our future and extropian transhumanists, then read about the Proactionary Principle as a standard or measure for addressing a smart balance between caution and progress. Welcome to the list, Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Wed Sep 1 13:29:07 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:29:07 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1094045347.1310.205.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 14:09 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 08:02:21PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. > > > > Well, something's encoding them in real time, otherwise there would be > > No, coding/decoding resources are asymmetrical. I understand. That's why i mentioned encoding assuming decoding would be trivial. > H.264 realtime HDTV > encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, > haven't looked), it doesn't matter. visiblelight seems to think that $325 will do. And if you don't like them, there seem to be many other companies offering alternatives. or am i missing something big here? > What matters is that how much > hardware I need to replay H.264 off vanilla DVD or broadband video stream at > the user end, codec's/container's sundry bells and whistles included, of course. > Both end matter i'd think. Encoding capabilities everywhere would be nice to have. Decoding seems to be available without any special hardware needed. > > no live transmission. Too slow for PC encoding maybe (but only if you > > don't have a suitable card i assume) > > By the time you can buy a card for H.264 realtime encoding the codec will be > thoroughly obsolete. As i mentioned above, it seems you can already do that. > Synthesizing fully immersive realtime 3d environments > for each viewer will be required, then. With current CPU you'd be hard > pressed to render immersive audio (not even with physical modelling) aspect > of that. Video? Oooh boy... > Immersive audio has been available for a while (depending on your definition of the term), mostly brought on by the soundblaster live and whatever its competitor was at the time (i forget). What happened i think is that they realised that noone cared, and few can even tell on how accurate the modelling is, so why waste cycles, or more importantly, coding time. video is a different story. > > > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop > > > . > > > > This is independent of machine speed (but not independent of setup. my > > X runs fine) > > I meant unmodified (no xfce) default Fedora Core 2 Gnome end user reaction > times. It will take at least an order of magnitude faster CPU to render that > at XP desktop speed, all other things being equal. > I don't run xfce. Why the focus on fc2? If the software's properly screwed (ie waiting for a timeout somewhere), then no amount of hardware will help you. Try some others. My experience with XP has been brief, but it didn't feel any faster to me than my usual X/gnome running on a dinky 1 gig duron. > > > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > > > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) > > > > Current crude FPSs run perfectly fine in current top of the line > > computers (saw it demonstrated nicely a couple of weeks ago. i've been > > Haven't checked, I presume you'll drop below 50-60 fps if you enable every > bell and whistle. > Yes. Much. Agreed. Even disabling bells and whistles in fact. (Agreed with rest too) From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 13:39:54 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:39:54 +0200 Subject: 4. Re: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as In-Reply-To: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4135D12A.5050600@mail.tele.dk> Mike Lorrey wrote: >I'd rather live in a dangerous but free world than one that is safe but >unfree. "Live free or die" as the saying goes. > Mike, the freedom loving US rhetoric is pretty hollow for most people living outside the US. There is no doubt that US citizens are among the most free people in the world. But the US governments respect for the freedom of people in other parts of the world isn't especially impressive. The terror problem cannot be solved with increasing power. As long as the US continues to govern the world by power and not from a morale high ground, they will keep setting them self up for terror attacks. They are not solving the problems that are causing the terror. The reason that the Al Queda is attacking the US is because they believe that the US is supporting opressive governments in the middle east for "practical" reasons. As long as these governments have US support, the people in the middle east feel that they cannot do anything to topple their governments and get the rule they want themself. And there has been plenty of examples showing that to be true. That the US is currently loosing the battle in Iraq isn't helping much either. Terrorist will take it as a sign of US impotense, despite all the impressive hardware. So they will feel far more certain that terror will work in the rest of the world, as well as it currently do in Iraq. And as time goes on, smaller groups will get more and more destructive power. If the US continues on the route they are currently on, i fear that in the future they will suffer terrorist attacks far worse than 9/11. If the US want to stop terror, they should stop supporting terror and suppressive rules. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 13:51:55 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:51:55 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <1094045347.1310.205.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> <1094045347.1310.205.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20040901135155.GA1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 11:29:07PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > H.264 realtime HDTV > > encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, > > haven't looked), it doesn't matter. > > visiblelight seems to think that $325 will do. And if you don't like http://www.visiblelight.com/mall/productview.aspx?pid=582 is a 2U rackmount box which says "please contact us for pricing". This is usually a sign for professional price tags. (Though probably lower than 100 k$ which I pulled out of /dev/ass). http://www.visiblelight.com/mall/productview.aspx?pid=491 doesn't do HTDV, though I'm surprised that H.264 realtime encoding in hardware is already available. > them, there seem to be many other companies offering alternatives. or > am i missing something big here? Not much, just the HDTV part. And HDTV is just the beginning, current mid-range displays (though not yet video projectors) already do several megapixels. > Immersive audio has been available for a while (depending on your > definition of the term), mostly brought on by the soundblaster live and > whatever its competitor was at the time (i forget). What happened i > think is that they realised that noone cared, and few can even tell on > how accurate the modelling is, so why waste cycles, or more importantly, > coding time. Fraunhofer did sell it's first phased array sound system to the cinemas, though I do realize that being able to take a stroll through the orchester pit is not something even audiophiles would buy. True immersive audio (without instrument physical modelling, for each individual organ pipe and string) involves audio wavefront propagation in the full volumetric game world model, reflection and attenuation included. So you hear the echos, and feel the fog/snow. > video is a different story. Yes, our limit here are displays. There are some 3D LCD displays which take OpenGL drivers, but no immersive displays, whether individual HUDs or volumetric ones. > > I meant unmodified (no xfce) default Fedora Core 2 Gnome end user reaction > > times. It will take at least an order of magnitude faster CPU to render that > > at XP desktop speed, all other things being equal. > > > > I don't run xfce. Why the focus on fc2? If the software's properly I don't have a specific focus, every Xfree86 or X.org displays on speedy CPUs and reasonably recent nForce/ATI offering performs abysmally as compared to e.g. Windows display snappiness (everything else, particularly awful worst-case QoS is another story). It is an architecture issue, but changes in architecture takes years to decade, so it's effectively static in comparison to hardware advances. > screwed (ie waiting for a timeout somewhere), then no amount of hardware > will help you. Try some others. My experience with XP has been brief, > but it didn't feel any faster to me than my usual X/gnome running on a > dinky 1 gig duron. FC2 is particulary screwy, but XP is considerably snappier than the fastest X system I've seen. There will be slow progress (hopefully on FC3 already), but my point was that faster hardware is a poor man's solution to doing it right to start with. > Yes. Much. Agreed. Even disabling bells and whistles in fact. > > (Agreed with rest too) We do agree, and I'm overposting here today. Should be last post, at least on this thread. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amara at amara.com Wed Sep 1 16:04:30 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:04:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bayesian Jokes Message-ID: http://www.isye.gatech.edu/~brani/isyebayes/jokes.html Bayesian Jokes "Some of the jokes show ignorance of their makers and some are simply mean, but it is fun to see how the world jokes about Bayesians, and how Bayesians joke about themselves." -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Math is Hard." --Barbie From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 15:04:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:04:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <043801c49034$f67e0690$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Eugen Leitl... > Nevermind that Moore is not about performance, but > integration density. > Performance (as measured by benchmarks) doesn't follow that > nice linear > semilog plots. <-- How often need I say this sentence until > people here stop > using Moore as sloppy shorthand for faster computers? Im specifically interested in reducing feature size, in some ways even more so than increasing speed. My understanding is that given two processors running at the same clock speed with similar numbers of transistors, the one with the smaller features would use less power. Is that right? For M-Brain apps, that will be a huge factor. spike From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:22:02 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:22:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead Message-ID: Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect the girl's allergies. BAL >From: "scerir" >To: "ExI chat list" >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead >Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:07:49 +0200 > >"May you live in interesting times" > (Chinese curse) > >---------------------------------------- > >'Church says girl's communion not valid' > >Thursday, August 19, 2004 > >BRIELLE, New Jersey (AP) -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare >digestive disorder and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion >declared invalid because the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman >Catholic doctrine. > >Now, Haley Waldman's mother is pushing the Diocese of Trenton and the >Vatican to make an exception, saying the girl's condition should not >exclude >her from the sacrament, which commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus Christ >before his crucifixion. The mother believes a rice Communion wafer would >suffice. > >"It's just not a viable option. How does it corrupt the tradition of the >Last Supper? It's just rice versus wheat," said Elizabeth Pelly-Waldman. > >Church doctrine holds that Communion wafers, like the bread served at the >Last Supper, must have at least some unleavened wheat. Church leaders are >reluctant to change anything about the sacrament. > >"This is not an issue to be determined at the diocesan or parish level, but >has already been decided for the Roman Catholic Church throughout the world >by Vatican authority," Trenton Bishop John M. Smith said in a statement >last >week. > >Haley was diagnosed with celiac sprue disease when she was 5. The disorder >occurs in people with a genetic intolerance of gluten, a food protein >contained in wheat and other grains. > >When consumed by celiac sufferers, gluten damages the lining of the small >intestine, blocking nutrient absorption and leading to vitamin >deficiencies, >bone-thinning and sometimes gastrointestinal cancer. > >The diocese has told Haley's mother that the girl can receive a low-gluten >wafer, or just drink wine at Communion, but that anything without gluten >does not qualify. Pelly-Waldman rejected the offer, saying her child could >be harmed by even a small amount of the substance. > >Haley's Communion controversy isn't the first. In 2001, the family of a >5-year-old Massachusetts girl with the disease left the Catholic church >after being denied permission to use a rice wafer. > >Some Catholic churches allow no-gluten hosts, while others do not, said >Elaine Monarch, executive director of the Celiac Disease Foundation, a >California-based support group for sufferers. > >"It is an undue hardship on a person who wants to practice their religion >and needs to compromise their health to do so," Monarch said. > >The church has similar rules for Communion wine. For alcoholics, the church >allows a substitute for wine under some circumstances, however the drink >must still be fermented from grapes and contain some alcohol. Grape juice >is >not a valid substitute. > >Haley, a shy, brown-haired tomboy who loves surfing and hates wearing >dresses, realizes the consequences of taking a wheat wafer. > >"I'm on a gluten-free diet because I can't have wheat. I could die," she >said last week. > >Last year, as the third grader approached Holy Communion age in this Jersey >Shore town, her mother told officials at St. Denis Catholic Church in >Manasquan that the girl could not have the standard host. > >After the church's pastor refused to allow a substitute, a priest at a >nearby parish volunteered to offer one, and in May, Haley wore a white >Communion dress, and received the sacrament alongside her mother, who had >not taken Communion since she herself was diagnosed with the disease. > >Last month, the diocese told the priest that the church would not validate >Haley's sacrament because of the substitute wafer. > >"I struggled with telling her that the sacrament did not happen," said >Pelly-Waldman. "She lives in a world of rules. She says 'Mommy, do we want >to break a rule? Are we breaking a rule?"' > >Pelly-Waldman is seeking help from the Pope and has written to Cardinal >Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith >in Rome, challenging the church's policy. > >"This is a church rule, not God's will, and it can easily be adjusted to >meet the needs of the people, while staying true to the traditions of our >faith," Pelly-Waldman wrote in the letter. > >Pelly-Waldman -- who is still attending Mass every Sunday with her four >children -- said she is not out to bash the church, just to change the >policy that affects her daughter. > >"I'm hopeful. Do I think it will be a long road to change? Yes. But I'm >raising an awareness and I'm taking it one step at a time," she said. > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kpj at sics.se Wed Sep 1 16:20:35 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:20:35 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: Message from BillK of "Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:07:27 BST." Message-ID: <200409011620.i81GKZn23969@r2d2.sics.se> It appears as if Eugen Leitl wrote: | |Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. |Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. |Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop. |Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think |Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) |Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. |Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. |Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone |performance. | |Need I to go on? You don't need a magical CPU-hungry application to slow down a personal computer. It can easily be done by starting a web browser, look through a wiki with most text pages and having "many" (say 10-15) windows open to different pages. With a few standard applications, like mail reader and an editor, the memory must eventually be swapped to disk and you get a rather slow personal computer. Depending on how fast your machine is, how much memory it has, how fast the disk I/O is, etc., it will happen sooner or later, but happen it will. A few "laws of nature" from the computer world: * The disk will always fill up. * The machine will become too slow. * You will need more bandwidth. * You will need more memory. In my experience, it has held for the latest 25-30 years, mainly because of this "natural law" of the computer world: * Software manufacturers tend to re-invent the wheel now and again. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 17:30:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <043801c49034$f67e0690$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040901173057.92808.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > > Eugen Leitl... > > > Nevermind that Moore is not about performance, but > > integration density. > > Performance (as measured by benchmarks) doesn't follow that > > nice linear > > semilog plots. <-- How often need I say this sentence until > > people here stop > > using Moore as sloppy shorthand for faster computers? > > > Im specifically interested in reducing feature size, in > some ways even more so than increasing speed. My understanding > is that given two processors running at the same clock speed with > similar numbers of transistors, the one with the smaller features > would use less power. Is that right? For M-Brain apps, that will > be a huge factor. spike It would use less power to do the same amount of processing, but it also will have the potential to be faster simply because the paths between transistors are shorter, so they could be clocked faster than a larger dimensioned chip made of the same materials. What Intel is doing though is using more conductive materials: more copper, gold, and silver in the chip. These metals are also more thermally conductive than just silicon, so they cool better. Moore isn't directly about performance, but so much of the performance of a PC has absolutely nothing to do with the CPU: how much RAM, RAM speed, network bandwidth, bus speed, hard drive speed, etc Beyond this is the software, how MUCH software, and how well it is written. Integration density has an impact to varying degrees on many of these things, but not all of them, just as the efficiency of the engine on a car has a limited impact on the overall efficiency. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Sep 1 17:39:50 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:39:50 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore Message-ID: <1094060390.6317@whirlwind.he.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: > No, coding/decoding resources are asymmetrical. H.264 realtime HDTV > encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, > haven't looked), it doesn't matter. What matters is that how much > hardware I need to replay H.264 off vanilla DVD or broadband video stream at > the user end, codec's/container's sundry bells and whistles included, of course. Back when I was actually working with H.264 codecs a year or two ago, realtime decode of full 1920x1200 HDTV video (or somewhere in that rez ballpark) was the domain of ASICs, but probably could be done native on high-end PC processors with well-engineered codecs these days. DVD quality video was decodable by high-end PCs natively. Decode is definitely something you'd want to put in an ASIC for general consumer consumption, though it is possible in native mode. H.264 HDTV encoding is another story altogether. To do it in realtime required an SGI ccNUMA refrigerator at the time. Monsterous quantities of crunch, and requiring serious amounts of usable RAM bandwidth. If I had to guess, a high-end dual processor PPC970 system dedicated to the task might have enough DSP crunch to manage full-code video in realtime with a highly optimized codec. And that is probably sitting a bit too close to the edge if you want maximize quality. > Synthesizing fully immersive realtime 3d environments > for each viewer will be required, then. With current CPU you'd be hard > pressed to render immersive audio (not even with physical modelling) aspect > of that. This doesn't require more than 1000 DSP MIPs, and is old hat. The problem with immersive audio is that it interacts with the environment it is played into when run through transducers, usually very poorly. With headphones, excellent immersive audio isn't a problem with current processors. Out of speakers, no amount of crunch will make up for the fact that the gorgeously rendered audio environment is being filtered through (and trashed by) a wildly unpredictable real environment. But yeah, it isn't like there aren't gobs of applications that run far slower than they probably should and many that just plain require more crunch, though I would attribute a lot of that to basic architectural issues. j. andrew rogers From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 1 18:02:44 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:02:44 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead References: Message-ID: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> Brian Lee > Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body > or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect > the girl's allergies. Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? Somebody (a physicist) suggested: why not the aerogel wafer? Big enough to be seen but so light weight that delivery from a priest to cummunionist has to be done with the upmost delicacy. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 1 18:34:36 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:34:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> References: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901132625.01a9bc98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:02 PM 9/1/2004 +0200, Serafino wrote: >Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov >the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? Jesus is *now* made of gluten, but only at the level of *appearances* (if I remember my Aquinas correctly). The *substance* is flesh, but the *accidents* remain bready. (Thank you, Aristotle. You can go back to counting your wife's teeth now.) The obvious theological solution is to allow her a sip of the wine=blood. (This is deemed equally efficacious on the god-embodiment meter.) Maybe that's against the law for kids? But this solution misses the *sociological* reality, which is that the child is being isolated and stigmatized (so to speak) in front of her classmates, on the basis of a totally delusional and in fact insane proposition. But then that's the nature of most social bonding/excluding identifiers, although few are as comprehensively crazy and disgusting as this one. Damien Broderick From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 20:28:07 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:28:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining three shuttles? Message-ID: With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. Would this necessarily be a bad thing? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 1 20:18:30 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining three shuttles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040901201830.72287.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), > one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if > the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by > hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? The answer to that is the inverse of whether you think continuing the Shuttle program is a good thing. But what's likely is that the area will suffer repairable damage, which repairs will come out of other NASA operations, and possibly lead to a permanent increase in Shuttle operation costs (due to the "need" to guard against hurricane operations even at White Sands, or even well outside of hurricane season). Any suggestion of mobile, quicker operations that could use the Shuttles as vehicles to move themselves and some cargo well out of the hurricane's path (which is what you'd do with any high-value airplane) will be quickly dismissed by the same administrators who wonder why it's so difficult to get an extra billion dollars to fund this "necessary" repair work. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 20:31:47 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901132625.01a9bc98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040901203147.42500.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> > But this solution > misses the > *sociological* reality, which is that the child is > being isolated and > stigmatized (so to speak) in front of her > classmates, on the basis of a > totally delusional and in fact insane proposition. If she were really being stigmatized wouldn't that make the Catholic Church cannonize her to sainthood? Then she could eat anything she wanted for communion. :) More seriously I agree. It's really strange but the more ancient any such social bonding ritual is, it seems more attention is paid to be getting it exactly right. Whatever that means. I also wonder if it is why the Spaniards outlawed the cultivation of amaranth by the Aztecs - a native American grain used similarly to wheat. Interestingly, amaranth was used by the Aztecs in THEIR holy rituals before they got bludgeoned into catholocism. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 20:35:41 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:35:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh Message-ID: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> From: Damien At 08:02 PM 9/1/2004 +0200, Damien, famed science fiction author, wrote: (Thank you, Aristotle. You can go back to counting your wife's teeth now.) Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain only to discover that yes, indeed her brain weighed less, thus she was less intelligent than the heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his colleagues. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Sep 1 20:54:02 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:54:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? References: <20040901201830.72287.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <413636EA.B32A737F@mindspring.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), > > one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if > > the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by > > hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. > > > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > The answer to that is the inverse of whether you think > continuing the Shuttle program is a good thing. But > what's likely is that the area will suffer repairable > damage, which repairs will come out of other NASA > operations, and possibly lead to a permanent increase > in Shuttle operation costs (due to the "need" to guard > against hurricane operations even at White Sands, or > even well outside of hurricane season). Any > suggestion of mobile, quicker operations that could > use the Shuttles as vehicles to move themselves and > some cargo well out of the hurricane's path (which is > what you'd do with any high-value airplane) will be > quickly dismissed by the same administrators who > wonder why it's so difficult to get an extra billion > dollars to fund this "necessary" repair work. You mention "guard against hurricane operations even at White Sands." Well, Pacific Ocean hurricanes do hit Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas although these are downgraded to tropical storms or less before they hit. For example, Hurricane/Tropical Storm Lester came through Arizona (Cochise and Santa Cruz counties) the same week Hurricane Andrews hit Florida in 1992. We had 50-60 mph winds tearing down carports, trees, and ripping off a few roofs. Fortunately, almost all of our power and telephone lines are buried here in Sierra Vista, Arizona. BTW, the 12,000 foot runway at Libby Army Air Field on Fort Huachuca is an alternate emergency landing strip for Shuttles unable to land at White Sands Missile Range. Terry -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 1 21:11:09 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:11:09 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh References: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20040901132625.01a9bc98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002701c49068$34873050$78c61b97@administxl09yj> Damien > Jesus is *now* made of gluten, > but only at the level of *appearances*. Ahhh, so it is epiontic (*). (CERN jokes) Church has come up with a new, low carb wafer, that also has no fat, an fewer calories. Fine, and how do they call it? "I Can't Believe It". Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope traveling backwards in time? On the contrary it's the Pope who is traveling backwards in time. That's right, the sign on his hat is that of the positive electric charge. And if CERN could induce Pope and Anti-Pope to encounter each other head-on at .99c ? They would cancel each other and yield a power vacuum! (*) after Wojciech H. Zurek, 'Quantum Darwinism' papers http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0308163 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0408125 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0408147 From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 1 21:10:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:10:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> References: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901160823.01ad2388@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:35 PM 9/1/2004 -0400, Natasha wrote: >Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain No. Well, he weighted it with some of his memes, but they're not very heavy. >only to discover that yes, indeed >her brain weighed less, thus she was less intelligent than the >heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his colleagues. Aristotle was of the opinion that brains serve to cool the blood, so he would not have been able to make such a connection anyway. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 21:35:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <002701c49068$34873050$78c61b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20040901213555.32851.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > > Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope traveling backwards > in time? On the contrary it's the Pope who is traveling > backwards in time. That's right, the sign on his hat is > that of the positive electric charge. And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? > > And if CERN could induce Pope and Anti-Pope to encounter > each other head-on at .99c ? They would cancel each other > and yield a power vacuum! What a positively Mechanicheanistic philosophy. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 21:48:28 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040901214828.88331.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com> > Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain only to > discover that yes, indeed > her brain weighed less, thus she was less > intelligent than the > heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his > colleagues. So how did Aristotle manage to weigh his own brain to compare it to his wife's? ;) That is a pretty impressive trick if you ask me. And I thought Archimedes was impressive with his bathtub/crown trick. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 21:54:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <20040901214828.88331.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040901215410.35331.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > > Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain only to > > discover that yes, indeed > > her brain weighed less, thus she was less > > intelligent than the > > heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his > > colleagues. > > So how did Aristotle manage to weigh his own brain to > compare it to his wife's? ;) That is a pretty > impressive trick if you ask me. And I thought > Archimedes was impressive with his bathtub/crown > trick. I always was impressed with how Pythagoras' enemies, those dratted statisticioi bean counters, managed to kill him in the place he despised the most: the middle of a bean field. That would be like killing Bush I with a broccoli bomb.... is there sufficient iron in that vegetable for it to be considered shrapnel? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:32:05 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:32:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <04a401c4909d$6b9f6550$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > scerir > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead > > > Brian Lee > > > Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body > > or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect > > the girl's allergies. > > Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov > the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? No, this is going off on the wrong track, theologically. The girl was born with the tendency toward this wheat allergy, so clearly, god gave it to her. Since this innate condition precludes her from taking a proper communion, one must conclude that god wanted her immortal soul to be lost. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:37:48 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:37:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to take a direct hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no doubt that it will perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Freels Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. Would this necessarily be a bad thing? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:48:54 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:48:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901160823.01ad2388@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <04aa01c4909f$c48ef700$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Damien Broderick ... > > Aristotle was of the opinion that brains serve to cool the > blood... Damien Broderick Well, brains would serve that function, would they not? (Among other delightful functions of course.) I pride myself that my normal body temperature is nearly 2 degrees F below the commonly accepted average for humans. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:51:42 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <20040901213555.32851.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04ab01c490a0$28e63880$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh > > --- scerir: > > > > Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope ... the sign on his hat is > > that of the positive electric charge. > > And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? I think you just mitre be right about that. spike {8^D From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 04:04:34 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:34:34 +0930 Subject: 4. Re: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as In-Reply-To: <4135D12A.5050600@mail.tele.dk> References: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <4135D12A.5050600@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <710b78fc040901210443c7f828@mail.gmail.com> > If the US want to stop terror, they should stop supporting terror and > suppressive rules. > > regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark > Yes. Good post Max! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sjvans at ameritech.net Thu Sep 2 04:26:30 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:26:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1094099189.1062.24.camel@Renfield> Nasawatch claims otherwise: "KSC's elevation is approximately nine feet, so we are concerned about both wind damage and water intrusion in the event of a storm surge. The Orbiter Processing Facility is constructed of concrete and steel and was designed to withstand winds of 105 mph. The Vehicle Assembly Building is constructed of concrete and steel and was designed to withstand winds of 125 mph. Other payload and flight hardware support facilities can endure winds of 110 mph. Launch pads and the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility can withstand 125-mph winds." http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/000121.html 125 mph is *not* Cat 5, but Cat 3. Cat 5 is over 155 mph (or 135 knots). I believe the orbiters are in the Processing Facility. On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 22:37, Spike wrote: > The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to take a > direct > hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no > doubt that it will > perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Kevin Freels > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > remaining threeshuttles? > > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to > wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining three > shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their > hangers. > > > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 04:35:30 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:35:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <1094099189.1062.24.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <04d101c490a6$4d026530$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Stephen J. Van Sickle > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:27 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > Nasawatch claims otherwise: > > "KSC's elevation is approximately nine feet, so we are concerned about > both wind damage and water intrusion in the event of a storm > surge. The Orbiter Processing Facility is constructed of concrete and > steel and was designed to withstand winds of 105 mph... > > http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/000121.html > > 125 mph is *not* Cat 5, but Cat 3. Cat 5 is over 155 mph (or 135 > knots). I believe the orbiters are in the Processing Facility. One reason Cape Canaveral is so attractive as a launch facility is that there is a large continental shelf that extends way east from shore, so that if a cat 5 comes in there, it loses some of its punch before it makes landfall. So goes the story. Guess we shall see this weekend eh? {8-] I can see where a storm surge would cause some major consternation however. spike From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 04:43:22 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:43:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9E7270C6-FC9A-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 24, 2004, at 9:31 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > >> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 01:53, Samantha Atkins wrote: >> >>> I have mentioned a few already. Beyond that I don't think an >> honest >>> look can fail to supply you with as many examples as you have the >>> stomach for. >> >> That's a cop out. You made the claim, now refuse to back it up. >> Just a few words would do. > > Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take 100,000 > lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. I am not going to get drawn into such a game when I have been shown in most respects to be eloquently right about the entire Iraq adventure being utterly unnecessary, reprehensible and very costly in multiple aspects. How many ultimately die by whose count by the time it is finally over (it certainly isn't yet) is relatively small potatoes in the full context of the debacle. > >> >> I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there were some, which is why I >> wanted examples. I can find "oppressive" actions, but that is the >> nature of both government and war. Shooting someone is a pretty >> oppressive act. I don't think we are doing away with either >> government or war in the near future. > > Government being oppressive is a very rational behavior. Being rational > does not mean being ethical, moral, good, right, or honorable. > > A war we had no business going to and that we were lied to completely on. Being rational has a tremendous amount to do with acting honorably. Those without honor are treated and held very badly. If the dishonorable have vastly more arms or money this may be somewhat masked for a time. But rational people would find that tremendously counterproductive and contrary to what they hold dear. On examples, I have much, much better things to do than go dig up examples for folks who if they are honest, and interested, can easily find all the examples they want. I refuse to go through the useless rounds of denial of validity of facts or sources, excuse making, arguments on various points of the form of the argument itself, comparisons to Vietnam, denunciations of those opposed to Vietnam and by extension whatever war we are in now, rationalization, new examples.. and off into numerous tangents along the way. I consider it a waste of valuable time and brainpower of a bunch of very bright people who inhabit this list. - samantha From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 2 04:49:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:49:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] zero point fields, Bernard Haisch and, gulp, more Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901234618.01b6cd98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Here's something kinda zany and hairballish but hot damn this is Bernard Haisch, not some total dumbo: http://www.ufoskeptic.org/ < ...the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers -- and others who have been around the block a few times when it comes to observing natural phenomena -- who have witnessed events for which there is no plausible conventional explanation. Recently astrophysicist Ken Olum at Tufts University argued (gr-qc/0303070) that anthropic reasoning applied to inflation theory predicts that we should find ourselves part of a large, galaxy-sized civilization, implying that the "We are alone" solution to Fermi's paradox is inconsistent with our best current theory of cosmology. Beatriz Gato-Rivera, a physicist at the Instituto de Matematicas y Fisica in Madrid, followed up on this (physics/0308078) with the hypothesis that Olum is correct, but that by design we would be kept unaware of a greatly advanced surrounding civilization. She also argues that modern superstring and M-brane theory further aggravate Fermi's "missing alien" problem. There is another aspect to the UFO phenomenon that involves politics and secrecy rather than observational evidence. I do not currently have a ticket to any SCI program, but over the years I have gotten to know individuals who for one reason or another would be aware of the existence of relevant black programs. From such sources, certain possibilities have made it through my credibility filter and now reside -- like Schroedinger's cat -- in kind of an unresolved mental superposition of quantum states having both the eigenvalues "true" and "false" and no operator around to collapse the wave function. My credibility filter is a function of several parameters such as my own knowledge of physical laws, state of technology and history of its origin, some personal experience with government agencies and security classification systems, but mostly the filter is tuned to the questions: Which people have I learned over the years to be trustworthy, sensible and knowledgeable? How would they be in a position to know the things they do? Why and to what extent would they tell me anything, even based on long-time friendship? Do they have anything to gain by telling stories or making claims? What consistency and convergence is there among various people's claimed information? I see myself a bit like the kid standing next to the kid looking through the hole in the big tall fence at the baseball game. This means that the closest I am getting to inside information will be a recounting of what is going on in there. I myself am definitely not an insider, but contacts I have acquired and/or befriended over a long period of time seem to be on the periphery of some kind of inside which appears to contain at least remarkable information, and apparently more than that. Let me be (somewhat) more specific. I now have three completely independent examples of individuals whom I trust reporting to me that individuals they trust have admitted to handling alien materials in "our" possession in the course of secret official duties. (The special access level in the one case for which I know it is R, a not widely known SCI level whose existence was finally verified for me by someone who himself had a very high access level, though short of that one, as being "reserved for someone at the very top." I do not know, however, whether it is specifically reserved or designated for this topic.) And in yet two mores cases, I am similarly one (trustworthy) step removed from a former head of a federal government agency who was involved with a special access program reporting decades-long extraterrestrial reverse engineering efforts and a head of state of a G8 country who also said he had been officially briefed on that program. Now the Air Force Project Blue Book of the 1950s and 1960s did have both a public and a classified side. I suspect that after the public half of Blue Book closed up shop following the Condon Report, its classified half may have continued, existing today as a black special access program (see below). Could such things possibly be true? While I am intrigued by what I have learned over the years, I can't be absolutely certain. > and so on. Damien Broderick From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 04:50:31 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:50:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <1093366340.1036.57.camel@Renfield> References: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <1093366340.1036.57.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <9E4587A0-FC9B-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 24, 2004, at 9:52 AM, Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 11:31, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take >> 100,000 >> lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. > > To be fair, that was not an unreasonable prediction, had Hussein used > chemical weapons and deliberately targeted his own people in an attempt > to scare off the Americans, a scenario I don't find altogether > improbable. A variation of the Blazing Saddles strategy. > Funny thing about that. At the time we sent in a military group to check out the scene. They came back with a report that the symptoms shown by the victims were actually consistent with the kind of gas, different from that used by Iraq, that was in use by Iran. The official story in those days when we were behind Saddam and his war with Iran, was that he *did not* gas his own people. I don't know if he did or didn't. But I do know that we can't assert it is so without some caveats. > A sound argument against the war before it started. > >> Government being oppressive is a very rational behavior. Being >> rational >> does not mean being ethical, moral, good, right, or honorable. > > Exactly. There are many good arguments other than "irrational". > Instead, I just hear "Bush is dumb", "it's the oil", "conspiracy", etc. > Why doesn't the opposition get to the meat of the issue? > > _______________________________________________ > What exactly are you referring to? And do you always refer to those who disagree with you as "the opposition"? - samantha From matus at matus1976.com Thu Sep 2 05:09:12 2004 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:09:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <9E4587A0-FC9B-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <000a01c490aa$ff50c520$6601a8c0@GREYBOOK> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > > >> Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take > >> 100,000 > >> lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. > > > > To be fair, that was not an unreasonable prediction, had Hussein used > > chemical weapons and deliberately targeted his own people in an attempt > > to scare off the Americans, a scenario I don't find altogether > > improbable. A variation of the Blazing Saddles strategy. > > > > Funny thing about that. At the time we sent in a military group to > check out the scene. They came back with a report that the symptoms > shown by the victims were actually consistent with the kind of gas, > different from that used by Iraq, that was in use by Iran. The > official story in those days when we were behind Saddam and his war > with Iran, was that he *did not* gas his own people. I don't know if > he did or didn't. But I do know that we can't assert it is so without > some caveats. > Its not funny, some googling reveals what is a reasonable description of what happened. I did some digging the last time this claim was made and posted this to the list. I had saved it since I knew it would come up again. In summary, the MTV News Byte Claim that "Saddam Gassed his own people" is clearly still true. There is some question about whether Halabja was only an attack by Saddam which intentionally targeting Kurdish civilians, with Pelletiers seeming to be one of the few people that still believe this in an apparent sea of overwhelming evidence, as suggested in the letters above. But given Saddam's systematic effort to wipe out Kurds in perhaps 180 other chemical attacks that were in no way involved with the Iran Iraq war, and not even questioned by Pelletier, the trumpeting of this particular article of Pelletiers as a anti-war trophy is clearly an egregiously incorrect interpretation of the facts. http://www.matus1976.com/politics/saddam_gas_1.htm To start with, the pretty liberal French Le Monde Diplomatique (http://mondediplo.com/1998/03/04iraqkn) relays the theory that Saddam was responsible for the attacks, outlining a history by Hussain, and in particular Hassan Al Majid's efforts to eradicate the Kurds. "Hassan Al Majid's chemical experiments began on 15 April. They were directed against thirty or so villages in the provinces of Suleimaniyeh and Erbil and proved devastatingly effective. Hundreds died. On 17 April, after a chemical attack that killed 400 people in the Balisan valley, 286 wounded survivors set out for Erbil in search of medical attention. They were stopped by the army and shot." This particular article tells the story of a systematic campaign of attacks and the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds, with the incident at Halabja being the height of the atrocities. Note the west, including the US, France, and Germany did little about this at the time. Next I would point you to this article published in the Kurdistan Observer (http://home.cogeco.ca/~kurdistanobserver/2-7-02-88-gassing-still-killin g.html) It is made clear in this article that the Kurds are no fan of the US, as the chemical weapons used were supplied by the US, the original event was ignored by the US (note is was also ignored by France and Germany) and now the US is using it as a rallying call against Saddam. This particular article estimates ~7,000 died instantly in the attack on Halajba, and relays that Human Rights Watch estimates that 500,000 to 100,000 people died during the Anfal campaign. Next I would point you to this page (http://www.dbarkertv.com/pelletiere.htm) which details responses sent to the New York Times editorial section after Pelletiere advertisement for his book, er, I mean, editorial was published. The first response is from the former United States Ambassador to Croatio, it reads: "In 1988, as a staff member working for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, I documented Iraqi chemical weapons attacks on 49 Kurdish villages in Dihok Province along Iraq's border with Turkey. These attacks began on Aug. 25, 1988, five days after the Iran-Iraq war ended, and were specifically targeted on civilians. As a result of the committee's report, the Senate unanimously approved comprehensive sanctions on Iraq. Between March 1987 and August 1988, Iraq made extensive use of chemical weapons against Kurdish villages as part of a campaign aimed at depopulating rural Kurdistan. These attacks have been well documented by human rights groups, forensic investigators and the Kurds themselves. Many occurred in places far from the front line in the Iran-Iraq war. The Kurdish survivors of the Halabja attack all blame Iraq, and many report seeing Iraqi markings on the low-flying aircraft that delivered the lethal gas. While the most deadly, the Halabja attack was one of between 60 and 180 such attacks that took thousands of civilian lives." [Emphasis added] The next response came from the executive director of Human Rights Watch Kenneth Roth. it reads: "Stephen C. Pelletiere writes that Iran, not Iraq, might have been responsible for the 1988 gassing of Kurdish civilians in Halabja. Human Rights Watch researchers interviewed survivors from Halabja and reviewed 18 tons of Iraqi state documents to establish beyond doubt that the attack was carried out by Iraq. Iraqi forces used mustard and nerve gases, as well as mass executions, to kill some 100,000 Kurds in the genocidal 1988 Anfal campaign. The commander, Gen. Ali Hassan al-Majid, said of the Kurds, in a taped speech obtained by Human Rights Watch: "I will kill them all with chemical weapons! Who is going to say anything? The international community?" The evidence is incontrovertible: Iraq is responsible for the crime of genocide, committed against its own Kurdish population. The gassing at Halabja was part of that crime" The very site you linked for Pelletieres article has this link as a comment (http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/index.asp) These are the official statements by the Kurdish Regional Government on the incident at Halabja. It says: "What happened in Halabja? On March 16th 1988, Iraqi jets bombed the town of Halabja with chemical weapons. At least 5,000 people were killed and 7,000 severely injured. Fourteen years on, thousands are still suffering the affects of the chemical weapons" The Kurds, as I mentioned, seem to be no friend of the US, but are also highly critical of Saddam (understandable, given his Anfal campaign was a systematic effort to wipe them off the face of the Earth) For brevity, I would point you to only one more article. (http://slate.msn.com/id/2063934/) This particular article was written in response to Jude Wanniski's incorrect parroting of Pelletiers argument. It is made clear that Pelletier only questions the involvement of Iraq in Halajba in particular, note as mentioned before that more than a hundred other gas attacks by Iraqi's on Kurds also occurred, and even Pelletier does not question these. This article states: "Last year, Pelletiere published a book (*) that Wanniski seems to think argued that Iraq never gassed Iraqi citizens. But as one can plainly see by scrolling down to the portion of Wanniski's memo (*) that quotes Pelletiere at length, Pelletiere's claim is that in March 1988, both Iran and Iraq gassed the Kurdish city of Halabja, which they were fighting over. Pelletiere's view-which is not widely shared by others-is that the Iraqis used mustard gas, while the Iranians used a much deadlier cyanide-based gas, and that it was this cyanide gas that killed most or all of the thousands of Kurdish civilians who died at Halabja" And "Joost Hiltermann of Human Rights Watch is writing a book about Halabja and other incidents in which the Kurds were gassed. He says that he's seen no evidence that Iran used chemical warfare during the Iran-Iraq war and plenty of evidence that Iraq did. Much of the latter is available online. Here" Additionally "United Nations reports from 1986, 1987, and 1988 confirm (based in part on reports from Iraqi soldiers who had been taken prisoner) that Iraq used mustard gas and nerve agents in the Iran-Iraq war and that these killed a growing number of civilians. In 1993, Physicians for Human Rights found evidence (*) of nerve agents in soil samples in the Kurdish village of Birjinni and cited Kurdish eyewitnesses who said that one day in August 1988, they saw Iraqi warplanes drop bombs emitting "a plume of black, then yellowish smoke" and that shortly thereafter villagers "began to have trouble breathing, their eyes watered, their skin blistered, and many vomited-some of whom died. All of these symptoms are consistent with a poison gas attack." The March 24 New Yorker carries a lengthy account by Jeffrey Goldberg (*) of Iraq's systematic gassing of the Kurdish population, based on extensive eyewitness interviews that Goldberg recently conducted in Halabja and other Kurdish-controlled areas in Northern Iraq. None of those interviewed seem to doubt that it was Saddam Hussein's army that gassed them" (*) - links provided on source page Finally, for an additional commentary on the subject see - (http://squawk.ca/lbo-talk/0204/0355.html) In summary, the MTV News Byte Claim that "Saddam Gassed his own people" is clearly still true. There is some (very little) question about whether Halabja was only an attack by Saddam which intentionally targeting Kurdish civilians, with Pelletiers seeming to be one of the few people that still believe this in an apparent sea of overwhelming evidence, as suggested in the letters above. But given Saddam's systematic effort to wipe out Kurds in perhaps 180 other chemical attacks that were in no way involved with the Iran Iraq war, and not even questioned by Pelletier, the trumpeting of this particular article of Pelletiers as a anti-war trophy is clearly an egregiously incorrect interpretation of the facts. Regards, Michael Dickey From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 2 06:24:44 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea Message-ID: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> If I understand correctly, this guy was saying that transhumanism would, if embraced, be the most dangerous idea because it would necessarily lead to the most extreme "us vs. them" humanity has seen to date? I would say the most dangerous idea, if embraced, is that there needs to be an "us vs. them". Look what has happened when it has been embraced. Granted, it is sometimes inevitable, such as when you have different religious sects whose holiest beliefs require conversion or genocide of all non-believers. But looking to violence or other antagonism as always the first resort causes a lot of unneeded grief. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 06:43:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:13:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409012343491021fb@mail.gmail.com> He seems to posit that our liberal democracies are based on notions of equality, which in turn are based on physical world equality. He thinks that if we lose our physical equality, we will lose everything else dear to us. He calls this equality "human nature". Our counter argument, I guess, is to push the position that sentient rights (he equates human nature and human rights) are not based on physical equality of fleshy individuals, but on something more useful, for instance Peter Singer's concept of granting sentient rights to anything that can suffer (I'm not suggesting we adopt that measure, but we need something). Really, the idea that we need to be the same to be treated with equal consideration, and to treat each other with equal consideration, is a very poor basis for a system of ethics. For a start, it's never been true; we are all different, with different innate abilities, strengths & weaknesses. We can frame transhumanism as a celebration and elevation of humans as a set of diverse individuals, with a common point that we all need equal consideration of our interests. In this light, it's an ethical advance. I actually like Singer's metric of ability to suffer as the determinate of membership of the set Sentients, but it needs to be tempered with allowing for differing types of rights/responsibilities depending on the ability to think. How to do that would require careful analysis, but clearly for instance you can't give a dog equal consideration with a human in choosing elected representatives, any more than you can require that a dog would find a job and support itself in a capitalist society. You could give such rights and responsibilities to an uplifted dog, of course. I sense in Fukuyama's writing an unwillingness to imagine how a transhuman/posthuman culture could work, and so instead he chooses to write it off as obviously bad (eg: he says that Brave New World is basically what we are doomed to, yes really). I wonder whether it is because he feels he has a great intellectual investment in knowledge of the history of humanity, and that this would be rendered useless in a setting that cast aside the great axioms of history, like that humans are all essentially the same, regardless of colour, creed, etc etc. On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > If I understand correctly, this guy was saying that > transhumanism would, if embraced, be the most > dangerous > idea because it would necessarily lead to the most > extreme "us vs. them" humanity has seen to date? > > I would say the most dangerous idea, if embraced, is > that there needs to be an "us vs. them". Look what > has happened when it has been embraced. Granted, it > is sometimes inevitable, such as when you have > different religious sects whose holiest beliefs > require conversion or genocide of all non-believers. > But looking to violence or other antagonism as > always the first resort causes a lot of unneeded > grief. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 2 06:54:17 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0409012343491021fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040902065417.58407.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > Really, the idea that we need to be the same to be > treated with equal > consideration, and to treat each other with equal > consideration, is a > very poor basis for a system of ethics. For a start, > it's never been > true; we are all different, with different innate > abilities, strengths > & weaknesses. This is probably the best counter-argument, if he is proposing "social equality requires physical equality". Indeed, social equality has largely been established *IN SPITE OF* physical differences. Introducing new physical differences - especially if their nature (affordability, et al) dictates that they be available to all, as is our aim - seems absurdly unlikely to introduce new social differences. > I > wonder whether it is > because he feels he has a great intellectual > investment in knowledge > of the history of humanity, and that this would be > rendered useless in > a setting that cast aside the great axioms of > history, like that > humans are all essentially the same, regardless of > colour, creed, etc > etc. Even a transhuman is still a sentient unit. One with vastly different properties, perhaps, but probably less alien (at least in the near term, which is all that "alien" reliably measures anyway) than certain members of all too human tribes and cults today. From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 09:19:47 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:19:47 -0700 Subject: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense) In-Reply-To: <004c01c48ef9$c1534fc0$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <20040830173526.10348.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <004c01c48ef9$c1534fc0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <3C599D60-FCC1-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 30, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > The General Assembly cannot (it doesn't have even the legal power > even under the UN Charter to) make a law that is legally binding on > the US unless the US agrees. > > The only way the General Assembly influences the US is politically > or 'morally' as a sort of body of world opinion. That is not of no > consequence, but it definitely would not be enough to deprive US > citizens of constitutional rights -including the right to bear arms if > US citizens actually have that now. > Not quite. If we are signatories to a treaty that we decide to take seriously (for once) that could be used for justification. You have it a little backwards I think. It is not that the UN would enforce such a thing on us. It is that we would perhaps (I don't think it is at all likely) sign a treat which we ourselves enforce in the US. > I say IF only because I googled on it and was surprised to find the > link below. > > http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/ > Second%20Amendment%20to%20the%20United%20States%20Constitution > >> People I know personally have represented the >> US in these negotiations. The US, under Clinton, had been totally >> willing to cave to the UN on this, but Bush is not, and specifically >> told the UN so. Kerry, on the other hand, is fully in support of the >> UN >> Convention on Small Arms, which would obligate US armed forces to >> search every American household for firearms to be confiscated... >> >> This is reason number one why I am steadfastly AGAINST Kerry. >> He would make the world safe for global fascism. > > I don't think private gun ownership would make any difference to state > fascism either way. Whatever weapons are readily available the state > (if it is an effective political organisation) is going to have more or > better > of them. > So you would prefer to be disarmed the rest of the way instead of largely disarmed? Really? > Fascist thugs don't need guns they just need superior brute force. If > the > citizens are not paying attention and are not willing to speak out > against > it then guns are irrelevant. You might as well plan to oppose political > thugs with lollipops if your are going to wait until they appear at > your > door and you do nothing to stop them beforehand. Guns are hardly irrelevant. Every dictatorship in history has first seized private arms. Look around you. We have a presidential race with the two "real" candidates both arguing how to divide the spoils of our lives and both intent on endless international intrigue and both saying nothing remotely coherent about the rights of the people or protecting civil liberties. What exactly will you say that will make a difference? We can push for an alternative candidate and party. But it is not at all clear if the system is remotely still honest enough to be changed from within. On the day the rest of it goes south I would rather be armed than not. > > Fists, boots and clubs were enough for the brownshirts in Germany. > Had they been widely opposed by guns then I've no doubt they'd > have been happy enough to use guns themselves but guns just > weren't necessary. > Boots and clubs would not have been enough if the citizens still had guns. At the time a large number of armed citizens willing and able to defend themselves would have been a very serious problem for Hitler's designs. Or do you think the disarming was only coincidence. > I think the only effective weapon against fascism within a state is a > citizenry alert enough and ready enough to speak out and counter > organise against any emerging or organising fascism. > > When the rest of your civil liberties are gone then where will you speak out safely? When your right of free association is severely curtailed how will you counter-organize? When you and your group get brand terrorists or supporters of terrorist or enemy combatants or simply are hauled away on no declared charges indefinitely - all of which the US now has the means on the books or proposed to do - then what does your talk about speaking up really mean if you have no power but your words? Now we can speak. Let us by all means take maximum advantage of it. But let us not forego every free citizens rightful insurance to do so. - s From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 09:41:08 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:41:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <20040901203147.42500.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040901203147.42500.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37F09F20-FCC4-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 1, 2004, at 1:31 PM, The Avantguardian wrote: > >> But this solution >> misses the >> *sociological* reality, which is that the child is >> being isolated and >> stigmatized (so to speak) in front of her >> classmates, on the basis of a >> totally delusional and in fact insane proposition. > > If she were really being stigmatized wouldn't that > make the Catholic Church cannonize her to sainthood? > Then she could eat anything she wanted for communion. > :) > I really did miss the part that said it had to be wheat. Unleavened maybe, but wheat? And of course the whole ritual was a twist binding up hard-won dogma a few centuries after the purported events and co-opting the shared meal new converts used to participate in as a rite of passage back in the day when Christian groups practiced real poverty and primitive communism. -s From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 09:49:26 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:49:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <60687A41-FCC5-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Us vs Them develops when there are such difference between the groups that there is little mutual understanding and when there are conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is when one or both groups sees the other as a threat that must be eliminated. In transhumanist terms those without various levels of augmentation/life extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will consider those who do have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats UNLESS the technology is either available to all or seen as seriously improving everyone's lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. Just saying we won't have US vs Them because we will not think in such terms does not make it so. - s On Sep 1, 2004, at 11:24 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > If I understand correctly, this guy was saying that > transhumanism would, if embraced, be the most > dangerous > idea because it would necessarily lead to the most > extreme "us vs. them" humanity has seen to date? > > I would say the most dangerous idea, if embraced, is > that there needs to be an "us vs. them". Look what > has happened when it has been embraced. Granted, it > is sometimes inevitable, such as when you have > different religious sects whose holiest beliefs > require conversion or genocide of all non-believers. > But looking to violence or other antagonism as > always the first resort causes a lot of unneeded > grief. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:29:56 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <04a401c4909d$6b9f6550$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902132956.54342.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > scerir > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead > > > > > > Brian Lee > > > > > Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body > > > or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect > > > the girl's allergies. > > > > Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov > > the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? > > No, this is going off on the wrong track, theologically. > The girl was born with the tendency toward this wheat > allergy, so clearly, god gave it to her. Since this innate > condition precludes her from taking a proper communion, > one must conclude that god wanted her immortal soul to > be lost. Or, that Satan cursed her with the allergy so that she could never know God. Does she get 666 mumps as an allergic reaction to the wheat wafer? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:30:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902133055.55249.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> But can it store all three shuttles? --- Spike wrote: > The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to take > a > direct > hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no > doubt > that it will > perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin > Freels > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining > threeshuttles? > > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to wonder > what damage, or good would come if the remaining three shuttles were > destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:34:17 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <04ab01c490a0$28e63880$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902133417.34330.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh > > > > --- scerir: > > > > > > Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope ... the sign on his hat is > > > that of the positive electric charge. > > > > And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? > > > I think you just mitre be right about that. Thanks. Of course, when the pope and anti-pope collide and cancel each other out, you call that a Chatechlysm ..... doh! ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:36:48 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <1094099189.1062.24.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <20040902133648.34780.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> It appears that the hurricane is going a bit south. My company's HQ in West Palm Beach is being evacuated, as is the town. All calls rerouted to my office here in NH. I'll be busy today, thanks... --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > Nasawatch claims otherwise: > > "KSC's elevation is approximately nine feet, so we are concerned > about > both wind damage and water intrusion in the event of a storm surge. > The > Orbiter Processing Facility is constructed of concrete and steel and > was > designed to withstand winds of 105 mph. The Vehicle Assembly Building > is > constructed of concrete and steel and was designed to withstand winds > of > 125 mph. Other payload and flight hardware support facilities can > endure > winds of 110 mph. Launch pads and the Payload Hazardous Servicing > Facility can withstand 125-mph winds." > > http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/000121.html > > 125 mph is *not* Cat 5, but Cat 3. Cat 5 is over 155 mph (or 135 > knots). I believe the orbiters are in the Processing Facility. > > > On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 22:37, Spike wrote: > > The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to > take a > > direct > > hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no > > doubt that it will > > perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf > Of > > Kevin Freels > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remaining threeshuttles? > > > > > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has > to > > wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining > three > > shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in > their > > hangers. > > > > > > > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 15:13:06 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:13:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <20040902133055.55249.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta go down there and see it. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Mike Lorrey > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > From scerir at libero.it Thu Sep 2 15:43:12 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:43:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh References: <20040902133417.34330.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0d2601c49103$8e73ce20$3cc71b97@administxl09yj> - Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope ... the sign on his hat is that of the positive electric charge. - And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? - I think you just mitre be right about that. - Thanks. Of course, when the pope and anti-pope collide and cancel each other out, you call that a Chatechlysm ..... doh! What about the Christ anti-Christ collision? Would this perturb the vacuum state itself, scattering Popes and anti-Popes, red-shifting cardinals, decohering massive bishops, and annihilating altar boys? Would this induce the universe into a violent phase transition to some other, different configuration? From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 16:06:11 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:06:11 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanowater Conference to Addresses World's Water Supply Message-ID: <297600-2200494216611215@M2W029.mail2web.com> NanoWater Date: Monday, September 27, 2004 Location: RAI Congress Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands The aim of the NanoWater conference is to examine how nanotechnology can help address the issues facing the world's water supplies. According to Unesco, although 70 percent of the world's surface is covered by water, only a fraction of that - 2.5 percent - is freshwater, of which 70 per cent is frozen in ice caps. The remainder is present as soil moisture. This leaves less than one per cent of the world's freshwater resources accessible for human use. Nanotechnology, while providing only a few radical new technologies for desalination, purification or waste water recovery, does have the ability to tilt the economic balance of many existing water related technologies in favour of large scale use. NanoWater will provide insight on those nanotechnologies and how they can be leveraged into the Water Industry to make them not only economically feasible but desirable. Speakers at NanoWater are: Kevin M. McGovern, Chairman and CEO of McGovern Capital LLC, Tim Harper, CEO, Cientifica, Executive Director, European NanoBusiness Association, Uri Sagman, Executive Director, Canadian NanoBusiness Alliance, Founder & Director, C Sixty Inc., David E. Reisner, President & CEO, The Nano Group, Inc., President & CEO, Inframat Corp., President & CEO, US Nanocorp, Inc., Fred Tepper, President, Argonide, Dr. Ir. Jeroen Boom, Project Design and Build Manager for Membrane Filtration, Veolia Water, Dr. Eric Mayes, CEO, NanoMagnetics Ltd., Dr. Philippe Rychen, Head of Environmental Systems, Centre Suisse d'Electronique et de Microtechnique (CSEM SA) and Diederik Jaspers, Senior Consultant, Altran Technologies Netherlands BV., Dr. Bob Carr, Chief Technology Officer, NanoSight http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/press.asp?contentid=267&catid=85 Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 16:36:20 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902163620.49400.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> I wish I had had the spare time when I was in Palm Beach, but I saw the beach once and one evening in a bar, and the rest was all offices and hotel rooms. I'll likely be going back down in the winter for a real vacation, though, so I'll have a chance to see KSC finally. How big does it compare to the Lazy B Ranch's Everett, WA facility? --- Spike wrote: > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > go down there and see it. spike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > Mike Lorrey > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Sep 2 17:09:34 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:09:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? References: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: The VAB is HUGE! It must be since they rolled Saturn Vs out the door. Last I heard, it was in total disrepair and falling apart. Many of the fuel lines needed replaced, the electric was all seriously outdated, and there were nets in place to catch crap falling from the ceiling to keep it from damaging the orbiters. I was at Kennedy about 3 years ago and took the tour that brough you right by the VAB, but not in it. Do you or anyone else know if this has been corrected? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 10:13 AM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > go down there and see it. spike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > Mike Lorrey > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Sep 2 19:16:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:16:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? References: <20040902163620.49400.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Never been to Everett. KSC is a nice setup, but as with most facilities like this one, it is geared to the uninformed. If you knew nothing of the space program and/or basic physics and technology, it would be very educational. It's a wonderful place for the kids and the Space Shop is excellent. If you like visiting just for the experience of seeing some neat memorabilia and actual pieces of the history of the space program, it can be a great thing. They have everything from a V-2 to a Saturn V there. You can stand right in front of those huge engines and get an idea of what they went through to develop them. It can be awe inspiring. If you are wanting to see examples of high technology or to actually learn something though, you are better off visiting the NASA website. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 11:36 AM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? > I wish I had had the spare time when I was in Palm Beach, but I saw the > beach once and one evening in a bar, and the rest was all offices and > hotel rooms. I'll likely be going back down in the winter for a real > vacation, though, so I'll have a chance to see KSC finally. > > How big does it compare to the Lazy B Ranch's Everett, WA facility? > > --- Spike wrote: > > > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > > go down there and see it. spike > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > > To: ExI chat list > > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. > http://messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 18:59:31 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:59:31 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Women and Voting - A bit of History Message-ID: <81310-22004942185931508@M2W070.mail2web.com> A short history lesson on the "privilege" of voting ? "The women were innocent and defenseless. And by the end of the night, they were barely alive. Forty prison guards wielding clubs and their warden's blessing went on a rampage against the 33 women wrongly convicted of "obstructing sidewalk traffic." They beat Lucy Burn, chained her hands to the cell bars above her head and left her hanging for the night, bleeding and gasping for air. They hurled Dora Lewis into a dark cell, smashed her head against an iron bed and knocked her out cold. Her cell mate, Alice Cosu, thought Lewis was dead and suffered a heart attack. Additional affidavits describe the guards grabbing, dragging, beating, choking, slamming, pinching, twisting and kicking the women. Thus unfolded the "Night of Terror" on Nov. 15, 1917, when the warden at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia ordered his guards to teach a lesson to the suffragists! imprisoned there because they dared to picket Woodrow Wilson's White House for the right to vote. For weeks, the women's only water came from an open pail. Their food--all of it colorless slop--was infested with worms. When one of the leaders, Alice Paul, embarked on a hunger strike, they tied her to a chair, forced a tube down her throat and poured liquid into her until she vomited. She was tortured like this for weeks until word was smuggled out to the press. So, refresh my memory. Some women won't vote this year because--why, exactly? We have car-pool duties? We have to get to work? Our vote doesn't matter? It's raining? Last week, I went to a sparsely attended screening of HBO's new movie "Iron Jawed Angels." It is a graphic depiction of the battle these women waged so that I could pull the curtain at the polling booth and have my say. I am ashamed to say I needed the reminder. All these years later, voter registration is still my passion. But the actual act of voting had become less personal for me, more rote. Frankly, voting often felt more like an obligation than a privilege. Sometimes it was inconvenient. My friend Wendy, who is my age and studied women's history, saw the HBO movie, too. When she stopped by my desk to talk about it, she looked angry. She was--with herself. "One thought kept coming back to me as I watched that movie," she said. "What would those women think of the way I use--or don't use-my right to vote? All of us take it for granted now, not just younger women, but those of us who did seek to learn." The right to vote, she said, had become valuable to her "all over again." HBO will run the movie periodically before releasing it on video and DVD. I wish all history, social studies, and government teachers would include the movie in their curriculum. I want it shown on Bunko night, too, and anywhere else women gather. I realize this isn't our usual idea of socializing, but we are not voting in the numbers that we should be, and I think a little shock therapy is in order. It is jarring to watch Woodrow Wilson and his cronies try to persuade a psychiatrist to declare Alice Paul insane so that she could be permanently institutionalized. And it is inspiring to watch the doctor refuse. Alice Paul was strong, he said, and brave. That didn't make her crazy. The doctor admonished the men: "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity." Please pass this on to all the women you know. We need to get out and vote and use this right that was fought so hard for by these very courageous women." (anonymous) Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From amara at amara.com Thu Sep 2 20:03:09 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:03:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Amara's Wavelet Pages Turns Nine Years Old Message-ID: Dear Folks, In the last days I made a large maintenance of my wavelet pages. I have finally an Internet connection in my home this week after almost two years in Italy, so I could finish such a task without my real job being impacted. This summer marks nine years of these pages. I needed to stop and reflect on that, as well, so I wrote some paragraphs, seen below. At my web site you'll see a pic of a sign to the "Lake of wavelets" that I found by accident when I was bicycling around Pantelleria last summer too. Ciao ... Amara Amara's Wavelet Page http://www.amara.com/current/wavelet.html Contents Wavelet Overview My Tutorial http://www.amara.com/IEEEwave/IEEEwavelet.html Wavelet Forum Wavelet Digest Fourier Trivia Sound Fun IDR Center NuHAG Gabor Server Discovering Wavelets Software Beginners Bibliography WWW Introductions WWW Sites Meta-Sites Research Institutions, Groups, and Programs Some Companies Individuals (Specialties) Some Demonstrations Correspondence Recent Modifications http://www.amara.com/current/wavemod.html Retrospective July 2004: Amara's Wavelet Page Turns Nine Years Old In July 1995, my wavelet pages were officially released. The page of links to books, papers, tutorials, software, research groups, and people emerged naturally from teaching myself about wavelets as I performed a wavelet software contract in 1994-1995. From the bottom-up, I learned wavelet algorithm details. From the top-down, I wrote a paper: "Introduction to Wavelets". The collection of the Internet resources I met as I performed these tasks emerged from the middle as "Amara's Wavelet Page". Amara's Wavelet Page then grew naturally as a site for beginners to learn about wavelets. My "Introduction to Wavelets" paper was my way of understanding with minimal math the main wavelet ideas. When the journal: IEEE Computational Sciences and Engineering published it in 1995, they gave me permission to place an HTML and postscript version of the paper at Amara's Wavelet Page. Since then, more people (>100,000) have downloaded the paper than many times the circulation number of journal. The Internet is really an incredible medium. On this anniversary, I cannot help but note that these pages were born several of my lifetimes ago. In my professional life, they endured the transition from scientific programmer to professional astronomer. The pages endured the initiation of the World Wide Web from starry expectations, through jaded disappointments into the WWW standard toaster-oven-appliance tool, now present in many people's homes. I rode along with these phase changes, at one point becoming so distressed from the Internet personalities that I encountered, that I wiped clean my web site and took a nap from the WWW for a few months. The phase changes of the WWW were not the only changes that my wavelet pages have endured. Adventures abound. In 1996, the Introduction to Wavelets paper was plagiarized by an engineering graduate student, whose lawyer attempted to convince IEEE, that Amara and his client, 'like Leibnitz and Newton with the invention of the calculus invented the paper at the same time' (he said). My wavelet pages have endured three country changes, a disabling repetitive strain injury, a large money debt, a divorce and later huge heartbreak, and an astrophysics PhD and postdoc experiences. Now lifetimes later, Amara the person, has emerged changed and better (she thinks) with the wavelet pages as a faint reflection. Sometimes others notice the niche that these wavelet pages serve. Since the later 1990s, digital signal processing online and print books and trade magazines have pointed their readers to my wavelet pages as a good introduction. A peak was reached in 2004, however, when the creme of the creme of the computer / technology magazines, c't, gave a link to my wavelet pages for their readers to learn more. I suppose I am somebody now, or, more likely, my name will be forever linked to the word "wavelet", no matter what Nobel Prizes I will receive in astrophysics ;-). I hope you've enjoyed my nine-year romp. Amara Graps My Introductory Seminars (A Post-script) If your hunger for beginner's wavelet information is not satiated, I sometimes give introductory wavelet seminars, now to hundreds of people over the years (see my resume for details). The duration of my seminars have ranged from thirty minutes to five hours. My audiences up to now have been astronomers, atmospheric scientists, seismologists, engineers, and computer scientists. My fees are negotiable and flexible; I've been known to give a seminar for the cost of a weekend attendance at Munich hackbrett festival, for example. Locations are similarly flexible; I've given them in computer scientist's homes (Ted Kaehler: to Alan Kay and his Squeak team) to distant Italian islands (Pantelleria). Please contact me if you are interested. -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 2 21:08:08 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <60687A41-FCC5-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Us vs Them develops when there are such difference > between the groups > that there is little mutual understanding and when > there are > conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is > when one or both > groups sees the other as a threat that must be > eliminated. *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that it need not always happen - like, say, by trying to develop mutual understanding or find ways to make the needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to destroying the other group. > In > transhumanist terms those without various levels of > augmentation/life > extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will > consider those who do > have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats > UNLESS the technology > is either available to all or seen as seriously > improving everyone's > lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. And aren't the enhancements we're trying to get developed aimed at improving the lives of those who have them? So, make sure that everyone can have them, and that their benefits are easily seen by everyone (which shouldn't be too hard, once there are real examples to point to), and there we go. From sentience at pobox.com Thu Sep 2 22:41:19 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:41:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org> References: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org> Message-ID: <4137A18F.3030505@pobox.com> Charlie Stross wrote: > > If you bolt all this together and articulate it, you find: > > * We are probably/we appear to be living close to a singularity > > * After this singularity, the boundary conditions of human existence > change radically > > * Ancestor simulation is one of these changes > > * We are probably living in an ancestor simulation > > * Our most recent memories are clearest because the technology used to > record them matured between our current time and the singularity; our > earlier memories are hazy and vague because they're largely interpolated > guesswork rather than accurate simulation > > Can someone please spot some holes in my reasoning before I go mad? I'm > not sure I enjoy living in a Philip K. Dick novel ... Well, the last item isn't correct because a noticeable differential between early and late memories resulting from a difference of recording technology would be a predictable flaw in the simulation, and an easily correctable one; have the inmates never notice the gaps in their memories. Also the same phenomenon is adequately explained by other theories of neurology. So there might be huge gaping gaps in your playback of Charlie Stross, but you would be forbidden to notice. Plus, that the above was posted to the Extropians mailing list implies that it is a known part of history, i.e., the original Stross posted it as well. For both reasons, then, the statement was a mistaken explanation of those phenomena considered by the mind of the person who originally typed it, even if the statement is true. As for the part about living in a Philip K. Dick novel: Generalization from fictional evidence, like assuming that if anyone ever does create human-machine hybrids they'll be like the Borg, an invention of scientifically illiterate Star Trek scriptwriters. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From sjvans at ameritech.net Thu Sep 2 23:49:55 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:49:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1094168994.2116.6.camel@Renfield> I read on a news report this morning (I can't remember where, but can find it if anyone is very interested) that SOP for hurricanes is to move the Orbiters into the VAB since it is rated higher (125 mph) than the Processing Facility (rated at 105 mph). However, all the orbiters are in pieces for upgrades and can't be moved, so they have closed up the payload bay doors, put up the landing gear, and will evacuate *everyone* (not even a skeleton crew). This one is mighty dangerous, and if KSC gets a direct hit, or even worse the storm passes just south, they will be in a world of hurt. If they are lucky, the buildings are over-built enough to stand, but nothing could stop the storm surge. On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 10:13, Spike wrote: > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > go down there and see it. spike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > Mike Lorrey > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 00:24:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <1094168994.2116.6.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <20040903002400.12282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> It looks like it will likely make land fall between Ft Pierce and Melbourne as a cat 2, with winds of 110 mph. KSC will likely be spared these wind speeds given they are nearly an hour north of the projected landfall point. The storm surge should be horrendous, though, being north of the eye, and as it is going to drop from a cat 4 (135 mph) to a cat 2 between the edge of the continental shelf and landfall. That's a lot of energy to dump into the water. --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > > I read on a news report this morning (I can't remember where, but can > find it if anyone is very interested) that SOP for hurricanes is to > move > the Orbiters into the VAB since it is rated higher (125 mph) than the > Processing Facility (rated at 105 mph). However, all the orbiters > are > in pieces for upgrades and can't be moved, so they have closed up the > payload bay doors, put up the landing gear, and will evacuate > *everyone* > (not even a skeleton crew). This one is mighty dangerous, and if KSC > gets a direct hit, or even worse the storm passes just south, they > will > be in a world of hurt. If they are lucky, the buildings are > over-built > enough to stand, but nothing could stop the storm surge. > > > On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 10:13, Spike wrote: > > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > > go down there and see it. spike > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > > To: ExI chat list > > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 06:00:46 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:00:46 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien Message-ID: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. The report to be published in the science journal New Scientist states that the faint pulse, detected by the world's biggest single-dish telescope, the Arecibo radio telescope, in Puerto Rico originated from a planet located somewhere between the two constellations Pisces and Aries. Scientists have ruled out the possibility of the signal as interference from Earth, satellites or other cosmic sounds. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 06:12:20 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:12:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Zero Powers > > WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for > Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they > believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. ... > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 06:17:47 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:17:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <20040902163620.49400.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <054201c4917d$befbf7a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey >...I'll likely be going back down in the winter for a real > vacation, though, so I'll have a chance to see KSC finally. > > How big does it compare to the Lazy B Ranch's Everett, WA facility? > Less floor area than the Booeing building, but I used to hear that the VAB had the largest enclosed volume of any building in the world. They aren't kidding: it can rain inside that building. Do go see it Mike. When I went there last I marvelled at the force that would bear on the wall from a strong wind. At the same time the structure itself is awe inspiring. I love any good competition, so here it goes: the height of technology vs the fury of nature. Wooohoooo, may the best one win! {8-] spike ps Im betting on the building in this case. From amara.graps at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 06:54:53 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:54:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien Message-ID: >> Zero Powers > >> WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for >> Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they >> believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. ... >> >>http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms >Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list >Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits >on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. >Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. >spike Don't worry Spike, Eric is a 'real' astronomer! Try the NASA ADS, if you are unsure. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-abs_connect?db_key=AST&db_key=PRE&sim_query=YES&aut_xct=NO&aut_logic=OR&obj_logic=OR&author=Korpela%2C+E.&object=&start_mon=01&start_year=1985&end_mon=&end_year=&ttl_logic=OR&title=&txt_logic=OR&text=&nr_to_return=100&start_nr=1&start_entry_day=&start_entry_mon=&start_entry_year=&min_score=&jou_pick=ALL&ref_stems=&data_and=ALL&group_and=ALL&sort=SCORE&aut_syn=YES&ttl_syn=YES&txt_syn=YES&aut_wt=1.0&obj_wt=1.0&ttl_wt=0.3&txt_wt=3.0&aut_wgt=YES&obj_wgt=YES&ttl_wgt=YES&txt_wgt=YES&ttl_sco=YES&txt_sco=YES&version=1 >From the American Astronomical Directory: (I x'd out his email and phone number). His web site seems to be down though. Korpela First Name: Eric Member Type: Full Member Division: HEAD Institution: UC, Berkeley Address: Space Science Lab. Code 7450 Berkeley, CA 94720-7450 Work Phone: XXXX Fax: XXXX Email: XXXX Website: http://sag-www.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 08:11:21 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? Message-ID: See: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? >From the article, "In 2003, Britons spent ?1,152m on games, more than ever before, and far more than on going to the cinema or renting videos or DVDs .In 2003, gamers across the world spent ?10.1bn ($18.2bn) on their hobby. Screen Digest predicts this will increase to ?11.7bn ($21.1bn) by 2007" To me, it looks like several trends are coming together here. There have been concerns that people were watching too much television and never going out in the evening. Now they are playing computer games too much. One report said that children have little contact with their family as they stay alone in their rooms surrounded by electronic gear provided by parents. Another large group spends a lot of time online, playing online games, in chat rooms, on email lists or just browsing. The increased cost and delays make travel more difficult, leading to a reluctance to travel, increased working from home, and more isolation. The perceived dangers in the streets at night are persuading more people to stay home in the evening. Shopping can be done on the net, and delivered to your home. Banking and investment is done on the net now. The birth rates in developed countries are falling below replacement levels. When you feel like visiting someplace, you look it up on the net, see pictures, read about it, then think "Do I really want to spend two hours each way travelling, to join queues for shows, queues for food, queues for drinks, etc.". Everybody *must* have a mobile phone to keep in touch with each other, but without actually meeting them in person. People email each other rather than meeting and talking. Are we trying to avoid physical contact more and more? BillK From scerir at libero.it Fri Sep 3 08:27:29 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:27:29 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501c4918f$da373ae0$4cb81b97@administxl09yj> http://www.newscientist.com/news/nographic.jsp?id=ns99996341 From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:16:24 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:16:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <7a321705040903021665e60fa9@mail.gmail.com> Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are on their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light years away, so I could be waiting on my pay day a little while ;) Zero On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:12:20 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Zero Powers > > > > WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for > > Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they > > believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. > ... > > > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list > Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits > on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. > > Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. > > spike > > From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:21:24 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:21:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites galore Message-ID: <7a32170504090302217e1ec70a@mail.gmail.com> I've got a couple invites to pass on if anyone here is still in need. Let me know Zero From eugen at leitl.org Fri Sep 3 09:22:17 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:22:17 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <7a321705040903021665e60fa9@mail.gmail.com> References: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <7a321705040903021665e60fa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are on > their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light If you can see them, why are they not here? How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? > years away, so I could be waiting on my pay day a little while ;) -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:58:16 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:58:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a32170504090302587edb1784@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:21 +0100, BillK wrote: > See: > To me, it looks like several trends are coming together here. > There have been concerns that people were watching too much television > and never going out in the evening. Now they are playing computer > games too much. > One report said that children have little contact with their family as > they stay alone in their rooms surrounded by electronic gear provided > by parents. > Another large group spends a lot of time online, playing online games, > in chat rooms, on email lists or just browsing. > The increased cost and delays make travel more difficult, leading to a > reluctance to travel, increased working from home, and more isolation. > The perceived dangers in the streets at night are persuading more > people to stay home in the evening. > Shopping can be done on the net, and delivered to your home. > Banking and investment is done on the net now. > The birth rates in developed countries are falling below replacement levels. > When you feel like visiting someplace, you look it up on the net, see > pictures, read about it, then think "Do I really want to spend two > hours each way travelling, to join queues for shows, queues for food, > queues for drinks, etc.". > Everybody *must* have a mobile phone to keep in touch with each other, > but without actually meeting them in person. > People email each other rather than meeting and talking. > Are we trying to avoid physical contact more and more? Virtual life does have its advantages. Personally I communicate more with (through?) my computer than with anyone else in my life. But at the same time I am in touch with my loved ones far more than I was say 5 or 10 years ago. My wife, kids and I are constantly IM'ing, emailing and cell phoning each other throughout the day. So even though we're all busy doing our own thing, we're never out of touch. As for actually going out into the muck of the real world, I'll only do it on occasion. In addition to the horrendous traffic on the 405 Fwy (which it seems I have to take no matter where I go here in L.A.), it's just not worth it to me to rush to get to a theatre on time, to eat stale popcorn and listen to other people talking while I'm trying to watch a movie. I'd much rather get DVD's in the mail from Netflix and watch them in the comfort of my home in my bed, next to my wife with a bowl of freshly popped corn and a bottle of wine between us. We still go out on occasion, but I'm usually disappointed by the effort and end up wishing I'd cocooned instead. The only time I'm really out in public is when working out at the gym, and even then I'm tuned out to the outside world immersed in my workout and the 4000 songs or so on the iPod. Hi-diddledy-dee its the virtual life for me! Zero From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 13:11:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > > > Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are > on > > their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light > > If you can see them, why are they not here? Because its a navigational beacon left behind by a dead galactic civilization. Or, it is busy playing video games. Or, it otherwise just doesn't care. 1000 ly is a long way for a howdy-doo. > > How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? A zero point field heat sink, of course. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 14:18:14 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:18:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <055e01c491c0$dd40b410$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Amara Graps ... > >> > >>http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms > > >Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list > >Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits > >on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. > > >Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. > >spike > > > Don't worry Spike, Eric is a 'real' astronomer! Try the NASA > ADS, if you > are unsure. ... I don't doubt Eric Korpela is a real scienist Amara. The article got my attention when it said a SETI scientist was all spun up, which made me think Dr. Jill Tarter's organization was endorsing this signal. That's why I googled and found Dr. Korpela was big in SETI at home, but it didn't say he was with SETI. SETI is super careful, very experienced and skeptical. I don't know much about SETI at home. spike From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Sep 3 14:31:49 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:31:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The New Scientist article is more informative: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an interesting natural phenomenon. best, patrick On 3 Sep 2004, at 15:11, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > >> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: >> >>> Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are >> on >>> their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light >> >> If you can see them, why are they not here? > > Because its a navigational beacon left behind by a dead galactic > civilization. Or, it is busy playing video games. Or, it otherwise just > doesn't care. 1000 ly is a long way for a howdy-doo. > >> >> How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? > > A zero point field heat sink, of course. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Sep 3 14:37:34 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:37:34 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: References: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical internet storm caused by the original NS article: http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html ciao, patrick On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > interesting natural phenomenon. > > best, patrick > > > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 15:11, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> >> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: >>> >>>> Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are >>> on >>>> their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light >>> >>> If you can see them, why are they not here? >> >> Because its a navigational beacon left behind by a dead galactic >> civilization. Or, it is busy playing video games. Or, it otherwise >> just >> doesn't care. 1000 ly is a long way for a howdy-doo. >> >>> >>> How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? >> >> A zero point field heat sink, of course. >> >> ===== >> Mike Lorrey >> Chairman, Free Town Land Development >> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." >> -William Pitt (1759-1806) >> Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 15:10:41 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:10:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <056801c491c8$2ddf4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> In response to an offlist post from a well known extropian, I wrote: OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except they use actual virtual dollars.) So everyone keep track of your own score, and propose wager amounts that are real to you personally. Don't offer to bet a million virtual euros unless you have or had at one time an actual million euros or dollars, so that you have some idea how much money that is. I accept a wager of 100 imaginary virtual dollars, my position being that this signal is not LGMs. I have another 100 IVDs that says the shuttles will see no damage from Frances. Or we could do it IFX style, buy and sell idea futures. I am offering 90 cents for NOs on both this LGM signal and Frances damages shuttles. (Still a 10% chance of an LGM is exciting. A high chance of finding an unknown physical process is very exciting.) Everyone give themselves 100 dollars or euros to start with, and keep your own score. {8-] spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 15:13:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical > internet storm caused by the original NS article: > > http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > > interesting natural phenomenon. Actually, the critics are thinking that the signal may just be a Listening Room effect, that the apparent source may be way out there, but it's actually an artifact of something close to the telescope bouncing off the shell twice. This is possible. What I find so intriguing is that they say that every time you lock onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and then it hunts around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at this freq no matter when you start listening, implies to me that it might be an example of an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses when someone is listening and starts shifting its freq then. Perhaps the physicists here could comment on this possibility... Such a dull but odd signal with FTL capabilities would be ideal for interstellar nav beacons... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 3 15:53:15 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:53:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005d01c491ce$207251f0$1db71218@Nano> http://www.seti-inst.edu/about_us/info_for_media/in_the_news/setiathome_found_signal.php Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Lorrey To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical > internet storm caused by the original NS article: > > http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > > interesting natural phenomenon. Actually, the critics are thinking that the signal may just be a Listening Room effect, that the apparent source may be way out there, but it's actually an artifact of something close to the telescope bouncing off the shell twice. This is possible. What I find so intriguing is that they say that every time you lock onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and then it hunts around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at this freq no matter when you start listening, implies to me that it might be an example of an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses when someone is listening and starts shifting its freq then. Perhaps the physicists here could comment on this possibility... Such a dull but odd signal with FTL capabilities would be ideal for interstellar nav beacons... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 3 15:54:29 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:54:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006401c491ce$4c18f110$1db71218@Nano> http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Lorrey To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical > internet storm caused by the original NS article: > > http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > > interesting natural phenomenon. Actually, the critics are thinking that the signal may just be a Listening Room effect, that the apparent source may be way out there, but it's actually an artifact of something close to the telescope bouncing off the shell twice. This is possible. What I find so intriguing is that they say that every time you lock onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and then it hunts around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at this freq no matter when you start listening, implies to me that it might be an example of an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses when someone is listening and starts shifting its freq then. Perhaps the physicists here could comment on this possibility... Such a dull but odd signal with FTL capabilities would be ideal for interstellar nav beacons... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 16:19:12 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090302587edb1784@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040903161912.85985.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:21 +0100, BillK > wrote: > > Are we trying to avoid physical contact more and > more? > > Virtual life does have its advantages. Personally I > communicate more > with (through?) my computer than with anyone else in > my life. But at > the same time I am in touch with my loved ones far > more than I was say > 5 or 10 years ago. My wife, kids and I are > constantly IM'ing, > emailing and cell phoning each other throughout the > day. So even > though we're all busy doing our own thing, we're > never out of touch. > > As for actually going out into the muck of the real > world, I'll only > do it on occasion. In addition to the horrendous > traffic on the 405 > Fwy (which it seems I have to take no matter where I > go here in L.A.), > it's just not worth it to me to rush to get to a > theatre on time, to > eat stale popcorn and listen to other people talking > while I'm trying > to watch a movie. I'd much rather get DVD's in the > mail from Netflix > and watch them in the comfort of my home in my bed, > next to my wife > with a bowl of freshly popped corn and a bottle of > wine between us. > > We still go out on occasion, but I'm usually > disappointed by the > effort and end up wishing I'd cocooned instead. The > only time I'm > really out in public is when working out at the gym, > and even then I'm > tuned out to the outside world immersed in my > workout and the 4000 > songs or so on the iPod. > > Hi-diddledy-dee its the virtual life for me! What Zero said. There is a place for F2F, but it is no longer necessarily the dominant role. Commute time eats in to one's allocated 24 hours per day. I've even scored a major ($100K+) job that's pure telecommuting, though I suspect I am an anomaly there. It is not infrequent that the only reason I leave the house is to walk to the grocery store as an excuse to get some exercise - or if I set aside half an hour to walk around the neighborhood for that purpose alone. I sometimes wonder what impact this would have on the drive for space colonization. On the one hand, if you're safe in your current abode, why shift? On the other, it may turn out that the appeal of off-planet living comes more from a habitat designed for close quarters and online living than from the physical location one logs in from. (Similar habitats on Earth are labelled "arcologies", and none seem to have gotten very far so far for various reasons.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 17:13:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <056801c491c8$2ddf4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040903171329.41571.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > In response to an offlist post from a well known extropian, I wrote: > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > they use actual virtual dollars.) So everyone keep track > of your own score, and propose wager amounts that are real > to you personally. Don't offer to bet a million virtual > euros unless you have or had at one time an actual million > euros or dollars, so that you have some idea how much money > that is. > > I accept a wager of 100 imaginary virtual dollars, > my position being that this signal is not LGMs. I have > another 100 IVDs that says the shuttles will see no > damage from Frances. No bet. Eyewall velocities are at 100 mph and dropping. Frances is going to be a dud. Move along folks, nothing to see here... better luck next time. I will wager .25 IVozAu that this signal is alien, and .125 IVozAu that it is a lazy radio tech's Game Boy he forgot somewhere in the instrument. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From samantha at objectent.com Fri Sep 3 19:46:54 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:46:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <4137A18F.3030505@pobox.com> References: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org> <4137A18F.3030505@pobox.com> Message-ID: <01D788AC-FDE2-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 2, 2004, at 3:41 PM, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Charlie Stross wrote: >> If you bolt all this together and articulate it, you find: >> * We are probably/we appear to be living close to a singularity >> * After this singularity, the boundary conditions of human existence >> change radically >> * Ancestor simulation is one of these changes >> * We are probably living in an ancestor simulation >> * Our most recent memories are clearest because the technology used >> to record them matured between our current time and the singularity; >> our earlier memories are hazy and vague because they're largely >> interpolated guesswork rather than accurate simulation >> Can someone please spot some holes in my reasoning before I go mad? >> I'm not sure I enjoy living in a Philip K. Dick novel ... > > Well, the last item isn't correct because a noticeable differential > between early and late memories resulting from a difference of > recording technology would be a predictable flaw in the simulation, > and an easily correctable one; have the inmates never notice the gaps > in their memories. Also the same phenomenon is adequately explained > by other theories of neurology. > Since there are neurological reasons binding on the originals to give this effect there is no reason the sim should not also contain the defect so there is no reason to hide any possible recording flaw. > So there might be huge gaping gaps in your playback of Charlie Stross, > but you would be forbidden to notice. > Notice? Compared to what? > Plus, that the above was posted to the Extropians mailing list implies > that it is a known part of history, i.e., the original Stross posted > it as well. > Why should the sim be exactly like the original? Wouldn't part of the interest in a sim be to explore alternate outcomes? A simple recording doing exactly the same thing would be boring. I don't see how folks with any believe in MWI would also belief that a sim can't have anything in it that the original did not. Is a sim perhaps what happens when a sufficiently powerful mind ruminates over the past and possible different branch points? If so lamenting the state of the "inmates" is silly for the same reason lamenting the conditions of virtual entities in a computer game is silly. - samantha From samantha at objectent.com Fri Sep 3 19:56:12 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:56:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 2, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >> Us vs Them develops when there are such difference >> between the groups >> that there is little mutual understanding and when >> there are >> conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is >> when one or both >> groups sees the other as a threat that must be >> eliminated. > > *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that it > need not always happen - like, say, by trying to > develop mutual understanding or find ways to make the > needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to > destroying the other group. What if one group develops and willingly uses such enhancements that the group without them is no more capable of understanding them than a ant is capable of understanding a human? > >> In >> transhumanist terms those without various levels of >> augmentation/life >> extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will >> consider those who do >> have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats >> UNLESS the technology >> is either available to all or seen as seriously >> improving everyone's >> lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. > > And aren't the enhancements we're trying to get > developed aimed at improving the lives of those who > have them? So, make sure that everyone can have them, > and that their benefits are easily seen by everyone > (which shouldn't be too hard, once there are real > examples to point to), and there we go. > _______________________________________________ > Yes, but not everyone will choose the enhancements nor is it clear that all enhancements can produced cheaply and in quantity sufficient for everyone who does want them to have them. People are not completely rational (big surprise). If we can quickly get to a more abundant world where comparative super-persons do not threaten one's very survival directly and if the "haves" consider the "have-nots" as potential "haves" who just need a bit of time and space or as simply an example of worthwhile and valued diversity, then it should have a relatively happy outcome. - samantha From dwish at indco.net Sat Sep 4 20:06:52 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:06:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites galore In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090302217e1ec70a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200409031919.i83JJuS9022009@br549.indconet.com> Thank a bunch!!!! Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI Pres. WTA Arkansas ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Zero Powers Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 4:21 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites galore I've got a couple invites to pass on if anyone here is still in need. Let me know Zero _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Sep 3 20:10:49 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:10:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining three shuttles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Having watched this situation, and this thread, I can add the following... The VAB is magnificent, have seen it as others attest, wonderful. However- Even if it really can withstand Cat5, it can't withstand a Cat3 roof being torn from somewhere else gapping one of its walls. The newer buildings, including the Orbiter Processing Facility (yes, Atlantis, Discovery and Endeavor are all parked inside in varying states as stated) which is only built to Cat3. NASA vehicles are self-insured, unlike commercial vehicles. We could only hope that next years allocated shuttle funds would be diverted into a new program such as the Crew Exploration Vehicle. I have heard the storm surge was at 12 feet. Not sure how that stacks against the remark of a nine foot KSC elevation. Don't like the way it sounds. Lastly, my understanding is that you can't bump a shuttle around too much. If one gets knocked off a pylon or such, they would have to x-ray every square inch of the airframe for microfracture, etc. etc. I don't know if an Orbiter damaged by a storm would fly again. My guess is that if two of three are damaged, the third would not fly again lacking a backup/rescue capacity as per the Accident Investigation Board. Or I don't remember that properly. Ah, Fridays. I'll have my fingers crossed with coffee tomorrow. Bret Kulakovich ps - anyone considering attendance at next years return-to-flight? From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Sep 3 20:27:08 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:27:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Craig from Craigslist, Wired, and the Singularity? Message-ID: Did I read this on the list? Or am I going to read this on the list because I am posting it? - I did scour my mailbox and didn't find an instance. Anyway - Interview in Wired with Craig Newmark, of Craigslist. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/craigslist.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 The ending is worth the read. Its just a nice surprise. Cheers, Bret Kulakovich From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 3 20:51:25 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:51:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:27 PM 9/3/2004 -0400, Bret wrote: >Interview in Wired with Craig Newmark, of Craigslist. >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/craigslist.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 See Bruce Sterling being curmudgeonly on singularity (again) at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/view.html?pg=4 From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 21:08:26 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Sep 2, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins > wrote: > >> Us vs Them develops when there are such > difference > >> between the groups > >> that there is little mutual understanding and > when > >> there are > >> conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict > is > >> when one or both > >> groups sees the other as a threat that must be > >> eliminated. > > > > *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that > it > > need not always happen - like, say, by trying to > > develop mutual understanding or find ways to make > the > > needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to > > destroying the other group. > > What if one group develops and willingly uses such > enhancements that > the group without them is no more capable of > understanding them than a > ant is capable of understanding a human? Depends on the exact level of understanding you mean: The group without can, at least, trace the history of how the other group came to be, and begin to understand them in that way. - or - It is already the case that many humans do not begin to truly understand others that they interact with. For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly understand any of us today? This has been the case for quite a long time now, and while there has been harm inflicted (most of which was eventually repaired), a World War III between the technological haves and the technological rejectors has not come to pass on any large scale yet (the Gulf Wars being a far cry from "large scale" in this context). > >> In > >> transhumanist terms those without various levels > of > >> augmentation/life > >> extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will > >> consider those who do > >> have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats > >> UNLESS the technology > >> is either available to all or seen as seriously > >> improving everyone's > >> lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. > > > > And aren't the enhancements we're trying to get > > developed aimed at improving the lives of those > who > > have them? So, make sure that everyone can have > them, > > and that their benefits are easily seen by > everyone > > (which shouldn't be too hard, once there are real > > examples to point to), and there we go. > > Yes, but not everyone will choose the enhancements > nor is it clear that > all enhancements can produced cheaply and in > quantity sufficient for > everyone who does want them to have them. People > are not completely > rational (big surprise). If we can quickly get to > a more abundant > world where comparative super-persons do not > threaten one's very > survival directly and if the "haves" consider the > "have-nots" as > potential "haves" who just need a bit of time and > space or as simply an > example of worthwhile and valued diversity, then it > should have a > relatively happy outcome. And that is what we - the transhumanists who are reviled as "dangerous" - are in fact working towards, no? From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 3 21:17:47 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:17:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >how the other group came to be, and begin to >unde rstandtheminthatway. > >- or - > >It is already the case that many humans do not begin >to truly understandothersthattheyinteractwith. >For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly A lot of my email is arriving looking that way, with chunks of text stuck together. I'm using the freebie or ad-subsidized Eudora 6.11.Can anyone tell me what's happening here? Damien Broderick From scerir at libero.it Fri Sep 3 21:48:39 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:48:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ff01c491ff$c63de690$cdc11b97@administxl09yj> Mike Lorrey > it might be an example of an entangled photon > FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses > when someone is listening and starts shifting > its freq then. de Broglie wavelenght of a bi-photon (2 entangled photons) is 1/2 of the usual de Broglie wavelenght of an individual photon. Penta-photons are produced in laboratories, to date. But this is not enough to modulate. You need another entanglement between a n-photon current at the source and a n-photon current at the detector (earth). "n" variable too! ??? Another possibility is a sort of triangular entanglement between a photon (at the source) and a bi-photon, going to a detector (earth). Measurements performed (or not performed) on the photon at the source could dis-entangle the bi-photon going to the detector (earth), changing its wavelenght. ??? A double Franson-type "time" interferometer (one interferometer on the star, one on the earth) could, in principle, be useful, since the outcomes in both interferometer are the same (if delta phases = zero), with entangled photons. Possibility of red/blue shifting modulation ???? Another (crazy, eh!) one. If two sources send signals (same wavelenght, more or less, the "same" wavelenght is not a "must") to earth, and the geometry is such that you can not distinguish wich of the two sources emitted that signal (photon), you get (in theory) a double strange effect: interference of signals (one photon two sources interference) and entanglement between the sources (if they are quantal!). Now if the sources are, then, entangled .... could they .... bah! But yes, Star Trek physics can do much better than this. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 22:54:16 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040903225416.4172.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > What I find so intriguing is that they say that > every time you lock > onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and > then it hunts > around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at > this freq no matter > when you start listening, implies to me that it > might be an example of > an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it > instantaneously senses > when someone is listening and starts shifting its > freq then. Perhaps > the physicists here could comment on this > possibility... Might the so called "frequency drift" associated with SHGb02+14a actually be purposeful frequency modulation of a repeating message similar to FM broadcasts of earth radios? I know that normal modulation of a carrier signal would probably be in a much more narrow frequency band, but might not doppler effects on a transmitter traveling at relativistic speeds produce a similar broadening of the modulation range of such an artificial signal? I do think it might be prudent to determine what characteristics a fast moving FM broadcast would have from 1000 ly away. Also I am curious why SETI scientists think that extraterrestrial civilazations would use the frequency of absorption/emmision of hydrogen to attempt to communicate with us. Wouldn't this make their signal seem like a needle in a haystack rather than making it conspicuous? Wouldn't it make more sense to use a frequency that would stand out against natural radio sources? ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 22:58:24 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040903225824.11268.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: >> > If you can see them, why are they not here? Well considering they are 1000 LY away, Marconi's transtlantic radio broadcast won't reach them for 900 more years, even if they had the tech to pick up such a ridiculously weak signal. So maybe we found them before they found us. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From amara.graps at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 23:39:04 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:39:04 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? Message-ID: About Face to Face versus Virtual interactions... t the end of my street is a garage where two old mechanics fix cars. They have no business name posted on the outside. No hours listed. No telephones present. They have many customers; they are usually always working on a car with another car outside waiting. For one-and-half years in the morning, I have said buon giorno to them with a smile, and they have answered buon giorno with their smiles. I don't know what are their names, and they don't know what is my name. About a month ago a series of mechanical problems developed on my old car, and I needed the services of the car mechanics at the end of the street. The first was my car door latch that broke - a couple of times of holding the door closed while I was drove was enough danger for me, and so I brought the car to the anonymous auto mechanics. They could understand immediately what was wrong, and I didn't need to try to explain anything in my bad Italian. They proceeded to tell me the time they needed to fix it, I went away for a few hours, they bought the part and installed it, I returned, they cold me the cost, I gave them cash, and I drove my car away. A few hours later, while my car was parked down the street from them in front of my apartment building, the car refused to start. The electrical system was kaput it seemed. So I walked at the end of the street, told them in my bad Italian that the car wouldn't start, and they walked with me to where it was parked and proceeded to check it out there. 'Dead Battery' they said, told me the time they needed to buy a new battery and install it, I went away, they did the work, I returned, they told me the cost, I gave them cash, and my car started again. Now I still don't know the name of the anonymous mechanics and they don't know the name of their anonymous customer, yet the transaction took place, indeed, at the end, they *fixed it at my home*, and I'm sure that we trust each other. Moreover, the transaction happened when my speaking and language understanding skills were (and are) extremely poor, so communication between them and me took place at a very low level. Such a transaction required that face to face interaction. So I think it is worthwhile to consider the spectrum of interactions that humans can have with each other. Not only do we have the richness of all five senses, we have a context of body language and a history of that body language, even when few words are spoken. Communication can occur on many levels. Amara From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Sep 3 23:52:25 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you would like one. - Jef From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 02:03:24 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:03:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <7a32170504090319031d383aa5@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > would like one. > > - Jef BTW, the way gmail groups threads together into "conversations" is kinda neat, particularly for fairly active lists like this one. I used to get overwhelmed with page after page of message headers in Hotmail, particularly if I didn't check it *every* day. But with gmail the messages of each thread are all grouped together on a single line and can be perused, moved, archived or deleted together as a group. Makes for a much less overwhelming feeling when checking in on the list after a couple days. I've still got a few invites left, so if anyone here isn't already on the bandwagon, let me know and I'll hook you up. Zero From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 02:27:24 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:27:24 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien) References: <056801c491c8$2ddf4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <00d301c49226$b6ef11b0$ec202dcb@homepc> Spike wrote: > In response to an offlist post from a well known extropian, I wrote: > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > they use actual virtual dollars.) Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except that the money wasn't real. The lack of that essential detail made it virtually useless to me. Like playing monopoly with a bunch of opinionated children that lose nothing if they are wrong so they go straight back to making ridiculous claims. I'd be happy to bet *against* certain propositions that are often championed on the Exi list, not because I have a curmudgeonly personality (although at times I might :-) but because it makes fuzzy wishy washy talkers get a lot more precise and specific (and thereby potentially more interesting and effective if they happen to be right) in order to operationalise the bet. This does not mean that I have money to burn, quite to the contrary it means that I am willing to trade money for time. I am willing to back my judgement and my understanding of what is and is not possible in some cases against people who claim or pretend to be experts. I can't do it effectively at this stage because there is no *real* futures market. Or is there? Does anyone know of one? Brett Paatsch From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 03:48:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:48:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <20040903171329.41571.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > > ...I have another 100 IVDs that says the shuttles will see no > > damage from Frances. > > No bet. Eyewall velocities are at 100 mph and dropping. Frances is > going to be a dud. Move along folks, nothing to see here... > ... ===== Mike Lorrey OK here is a good place for me to vent. I have disparaged the news industry in this forum before, so if you have no interest in hearing more, do hit delete. I have been in contact with my parents in Titusville Florida, just inland of Cape Canaveral. They decided to stand their ground, stay in their house, weather the storm. The way the news media handled this storm Frances caused many of the proletariat to flee in a panic. Nothing sells news like danger, eh? Ordinarily I would be sympathetic with that kind of thing, for after all profit was generated. But the newsers have acted very irresponsibly. The fleeing proles have evidently failed to calculate the range of their Detroits and failed to adequately plan what they would do at the end of that fuel tank. (These soldiers will never make general. I hope.) With inadequate fuel and food aboard, now there are dead conveyances everywhere along I95 and I75, the two major arteries out of Florida, filled with panicked proles, frantically searching for fuel, food and water. Well fer crying the hell out loud! They have put themselves in greater danger than if they would just sit tight at home. They keep saying there is a mandatory evacuation, but of course no one has the authority to make you leave your home. Its *your* home. Honestly folks, it isn't the apocalyse, its just a storm. Sure there will be some roof damage here and there, stuff may fly around. But in most cases you are safer in your sturdy home with adequate supplies, than on some clogged freeway filled with panicky and sleepy yahoos creeping to the north. Floridians, stand your ground! spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 04:14:03 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:14:03 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <00d301c49226$b6ef11b0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <059801c49235$9d2eaba0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch > To: ExI chat list > Spike wrote: > > > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > > they use actual virtual dollars.) > > Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? > > Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except > that the money wasn't real... > I can't do it effectively at this stage because there is no *real* > futures market. Or is there? Does anyone know of one? Brett Paatsch Brett just set up a private real money IFX with individuals. You could contact your buddies and agree to buy and sell each other ideas futures. All private transactions so governments won't think they deserve a cut. Anyone who has friends and associates can play real money ideas futures. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 05:30:47 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:30:47 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat] SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) References: <059801c49235$9d2eaba0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <00fb01c49240$54ec96d0$ec202dcb@homepc> > > Spike wrote: > > > > > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > > > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > > > they use actual virtual dollars.) > > > > Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? > > > > Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except > > that the money wasn't real... > > I can't do it effectively at this stage because there is no *real* > > futures market. Or is there? Does anyone know of one? Brett Paatsch > > Brett just set up a private real money IFX with > individuals. You could contact your buddies and > agree to buy and sell each other ideas futures. > All private transactions so governments won't think > they deserve a cut. Anyone who has friends and > associates can play real money ideas futures. If I only wanted to bet on sports or stuff that doesn't matter much then I could bet with individuals now and wouldn't need a ideas futures market. If I only bet with friends and reputable associates then I could probably keep governments out of it but it would be small scale. It takes a certain number of market participants to make a market work. In Australia I don't think there are enough people who understand most of the future technological stuff that is of interest to transhumanists (and has been of interest to me) to make up a viable market. It also takes a certain amount of time and money invested to justify setting up an internet based market. (I wonder if that's why Robin didn't push forward with his idea? ). For me to do it, I'd have to learn how to do it technically, then do it. There are skills I'd have to acquire first. Before I would start on something like (taking the time and effort to create the actual market) I'd want to be sure that there was enough people willing to bet real money. I'd also want to be sure that someone else isn't just about to do it. It is one thing to want to buy or sell something, it is another to want to go into the businesses of providing the market for buyers and sellers to get together. I *would* bet on someone else's market (like Robin's) if it was there and real and I could check it out and do a bit of reasonable sensible due diligence. Brett Paatsch From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 05:41:56 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:41:56 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <00fb01c49240$54ec96d0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <05a201c49241$e43cdce0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch > > > > Spike wrote: > > > > > > > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > > > > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > > > > they use actual virtual dollars.) > > > > > > Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? > > > > > > Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except > > > that the money wasn't real... > > It takes a certain number of market participants to make a market > work. In Australia I don't think there are enough people who > understand most of the future technological stuff... to make up a viable market... > Brett Paatsch Why does it need to be in Australia? What Im getting at is there are enough people in extropians, sl4, BetterHumans, to raise a group to do real money IFX. My notion is to somehow piggyback off of Robin's IFX without reinventing anything. Then your private real-money IFX would kinda be betting on the future prices that will show up on the virtual money IFX. How about it? How many would like to join a private real money IFX game? Perhaps someone is already running one somewhere. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 06:06:36 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:06:36 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) References: <05a201c49241$e43cdce0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <011b01c49245$55e4c030$ec202dcb@homepc> Spike: > there are enough people in extropians, sl4, BetterHumans, to > raise a group to do real money IFX. My notion is to somehow > piggyback off of Robin's IFX without reinventing anything. > Then your private real-money IFX would kinda be betting on > the future prices that will show up on the virtual money IFX. > > How about it? How many would like to join a private real > money IFX game? Perhaps someone is already running one somewhere. I'd definately be interested. I think the market would hone good ideas and disclose good and bad futures analysts. I wouldn't mind losing money (and so empowering) someone good enough to take it from me (because I'd learn something that mattered). I can also see how it would be useful to be able to hedge. Brett From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 06:14:12 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:14:12 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <011b01c49245$55e4c030$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch ... > > I'd definately be interested. I think the market would hone good > ideas and disclose good and bad futures analysts. > > I wouldn't mind losing money (and so empowering) someone good > enough to take it from me (because I'd learn something that mattered). > I can also see how it would be useful to be able to hedge. > > Brett Wait a minute, its coming back to me now. We have been over this ground before. Either that or I am having deja vu, that strange feeling you someti... mz get... This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time so I declined, and never got back with it. Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, thanks. spike From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 06:58:34 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 16:58:34 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Fri, 2004-09-03 at 23:14 -0700, Spike wrote: > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > thanks. Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on that sentence though) alejandro From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:16:07 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:16:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Oh yeah, that one. I know the problem. Your email buddy has a wad of chewing gum stuck under his space-bar ;) Zero On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:17:47 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > >how the other group came to be, and begin to > >unde rstandtheminthatway. > > > >- or - > > > >It is already the case that many humans do not begin > >to truly understandothersthattheyinteractwith. > >For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly > > A lot of my email is arriving looking that way, with chunks of text stuck > together. I'm using the freebie or ad-subsidized Eudora 6.11.Can anyone > tell me what's happening here? > > Damien Broderick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:30:20 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:30:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very true. Technology will someday permit handling remotely all levels of communicatons, but we are far from there yet. G. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps Sent: s?bado, 04 de septiembre de 2004 1:39 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: amara at amara.com Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? Such a transaction required that face to face interaction. So I think it is worthwhile to consider the spectrum of interactions that humans can have with each other. Not only do we have the richness of all five senses, we have a context of body language and a history of that body language, even when few words are spoken. Communication can occur on many levels. Amara --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From eugen at leitl.org Sat Sep 4 07:44:34 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:44:34 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903225824.11268.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> <20040903225824.11268.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040904074434.GC1458@leitl.org> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 03:58:24PM -0700, The Avantguardian wrote: > > If you can see them, why are they not here? > > Well considering they are 1000 LY away, Marconi's > transtlantic radio broadcast won't reach them for 900 > more years, even if they had the tech to pick up such > a ridiculously weak signal. So maybe we found them > before they found us. Building and launching a relativistic self-rep probe is the equivalent of a science fair project for an advanced culture. Arecibo is for the galactic nursery strictly. Transmission in the hydrogen band as a means to initiate contact? Gimme a break. Have you noticed how Earth looks from space over several last decades? Bright monochromatic sources are an earmark of primitive communication. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:51:53 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:51:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> Yes and no. Sure, there are some types of communication where F2F is a big plus, primarily romantic relationships come to mind. E-mail, telephone, IM, even video-conferencing can't say "I love you" like a smile and a twinkle in the eye coupled with a kiss on the lips. But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. Obviously that kind of relationship won't work in every industry, but in mine it works just fine. And the tech will only improve. I remember reading somewhere that Ray Kurzweil gave a speech in another country somewhere using some sort of holographic videoconferencing system. Give me something like that and I'd *never* have to leave the house. On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:30:20 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Very true. Technology will someday permit handling remotely all levels of > communicatons, but we are far from there yet. > G. > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Sent: s?bado, 04 de septiembre de 2004 1:39 > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Cc: amara at amara.com > Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into > virtualreality? > Such a transaction required that face to face interaction. So I > think it is worthwhile to consider the spectrum of interactions that > humans can have with each other. Not only do we have the richness of > all five senses, we have a context of body language and a history of > that body language, even when few words are spoken. Communication > can occur on many levels. > > Amara From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 07:58:54 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:58:54 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money?(wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: [Spike] > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > > thanks. > > Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money > for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on > that sentence though) Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid wasn't real. I think I recall Robin posting to this list perhaps 12 months before that looking for prototype application areas that could be explored commerically with a view to helping to make the idea more real. A sort of anticipating-terrorists-attacks idea did raise attention (from memory) and may have even been reported as an interesting idea in the Economist or somewhere but I'm pretty sure it didn't get any real traction and also was spoken against by some "establishment types". Brett From benboc at lineone.net Sat Sep 4 08:10:40 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 09:10:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [extropy-chat Digest] Women and Voting - A bit of History In-Reply-To: <200409031619.i83GJY022897@tick.javien.com> References: <200409031619.i83GJY022897@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41397880.7020604@lineone.net> Women and Voting - A bit of History Don't forget that a right is not an obligation. The important thing is that women have a right, the right to vote, this includes the right to choose to vote. To say that women have an obligation to vote, because of those women who suffered to gain the right, is just another form of oppression. Not voting is exercising your right to choose to vote. By all means, tell people that you think they should vote, and why you think that. But don't insist that they have a *duty* to. I think there is a parallel with transhumanism here. We are working towards making many wonderful choices available to people in the future, such as longer healthier lives, enhancements of their bodies and minds, opportunities to explore places and things that aren't available to us now. I'd hate to think that people in the future might be pressurised into taking up these choices, as a matter of obligation to people who made the effort to make them available. Do you want to *make* people live longer lives, if what they want is to be left alone to live a 'natural', unenhanced life, and die after a few decades? Surely they have the right to make that choice? Just as people now (women or not) have the right to choose not to vote. ben From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 08:25:17 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:25:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:51:53 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Yes and no. Sure, there are some types of communication where F2F is > a big plus, primarily romantic relationships come to mind. E-mail, > telephone, IM, even video-conferencing can't say "I love you" like a > smile and a twinkle in the eye coupled with a kiss on the lips. > > But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our > technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for > years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail > them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the > phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But > F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. > > Obviously that kind of relationship won't work in every industry, but > in mine it works just fine. And the tech will only improve. I > remember reading somewhere that Ray Kurzweil gave a speech in another > country somewhere using some sort of holographic videoconferencing > system. Give me something like that and I'd *never* have to leave the > house. > You can already use your webcam to make video phone calls if both pcs are set up with the appropriate software. New 3D screens in the pipeline will improve this even more. F2F is required for romantic relationships. But have you noticed that more and more people are choosing to live on their own? Bachelor flats for both men and women are increasingly popular. They still meet for liaisons, I have heard :), but they want their own space to live in. One of the reasons Friday and Saturday nights are becoming nogo areas in UK cities is because of they are now drunken, testosterone semi-riots, full of youngsters fighting and sexual liaisons, with the police vainly trying to keep some control. Modern life seems to be moving towards only going out when absolutely necessary. If you don't go out, you don't need to get your car fixed. :) BillK From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 09:03:40 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 19:03:40 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money?(wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 17:58 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > [Spike] > > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > > > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > > > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > > > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > > > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > > > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > > > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > > > > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > > > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > > > thanks. > > > > Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money > > for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on > > that sentence though) > > Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and > Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid > wasn't real. > I didn't mean the public www.ideosphere.com, but a private version run for Senior Associates only. I am sure that i was sure at some point that it existed, but i can't find links to it anywhere, although i've found enough hints in old (but not very old (sept 2001) foresight update issues not to force me to accept it was completely a figment of my imagination yet. Of course, this isn't much good to you, but you could check with the foresight institute. alejandro From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 09:43:33 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:43:33 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money > > > for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on > > > that sentence though) > > > > Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and > > Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid > > wasn't real. > > > I didn't mean the public www.ideosphere.com, but a private version run > for Senior Associates only. That's the one I'd seen. > I am sure that i was sure at some point > that it existed, but i can't find links to it anywhere, although i've > found enough hints in old (but not very old (sept 2001) foresight update > issues not to force me to accept it was completely a figment of my > imagination yet. > Of course, this isn't much good to you, but you could check with the > foresight institute. Wouldn't that be a bit like going to the Catholic church, saying I'm an atheist and asking for a list of members that want to bet with me on the existence of god? If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on say molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater opportunity to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is going to work? Having a closed market would seem to be exactly the opposite to the optimal strategy for getting funds to those who already agree with foresight and for persuading sceptics. Say Smalley bet with Drexler and lost - that would be almost priceless publicity for Drexler and Foresight wouldn't it? If Drexler won, Smalley would not only have to pay him, he'd have to change his mind. Or am I missing something? Brett From alex at ramonsky.com Sat Sep 4 10:26:24 2004 From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 11:26:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links Message-ID: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> Nice neuro links to dive into: ****************** http://brainmuseum.org/index.html (massive collection of mammalian brains) http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/index.html (lots of diverse topics) http://www.neuroguide.com/index.html (neuroscience resources. This site can be a bugger to navigate) http://www.psy.ed.ac.uk/psychexps/Exps/experiments.html (psychology experiments) http://psych.hanover.edu/Research/exponnet.html (psychology experiments) http://www.beemnet.com/dana/virtuallabs.html (more invasive techniques. If squeamish bring sick bag) http://www.ucsf.edu/neurosc/faculty/Sretavan/freeze.html (Axon growth. -Massive file; don't go there without broadband) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ (Biotechnology. The link 'OMIM' takes you to the Online Inheritance in Man site) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/madsweb/ (animations & pdf files about various bits of brain) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/sensesweb/ (animation of learning & memory.) http://www.uwm.edu/~johnchay/cc.htm (classical conditioning -you get to play with the variables. Entertaining when drunk.) Sites about motivation: http://www.nida.nih.gov/ http://www.lsa.umich.edu/psych/research&labs/berridge/Research.html Sites about emotion: http://mambo.ucsc.edu/psl/fanl.html http://www.unige.ch/fapse/emotion/ http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/Common/Research/cognition-emotion/index.shtml http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/emotion/ http://emotion.salk.edu/Emotion/EmoRes/Psych/SelTops.html Sites about consciousness: http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ccsmain/Tucson2002/Tucson2002index.htm http://www.imprint.co.uk/jcs.html http://jamaica.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/ *********************** Enjoy! AR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 11:10:40 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 21:10:40 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 19:43 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > I am sure that i was sure at some point > > that it existed, but i can't find links to it anywhere, although i've > > found enough hints in old (but not very old (sept 2001) foresight update > > issues not to force me to accept it was completely a figment of my > > imagination yet. > > > Of course, this isn't much good to you, but you could check with the > > foresight institute. > > Wouldn't that be a bit like going to the Catholic church, saying I'm an > atheist and asking for a list of members that want to bet with me on the > existence of god? > > If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on say > molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being > bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater opportunity > to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is > going to work? > but all bets are not about nanotech. > Or am I missing something? > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots of places. but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I always thought that was the main obstacle. alejandro From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 11:45:15 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:45:15 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <023601c49274$a55306c0$ec202dcb@homepc> Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 19:43 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on say > > molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being > > bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater opportunity > > to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is > > going to work? > > > but all bets are not about nanotech. Sure, but even so, mixing bears and bulls on any issue would give the best market. And nanotech would be a good thing to have a market on. Its already attracting plenty of commercial interest. > > Or am I missing something? > > > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > of places. Perceived and actual problems with different legislations across different legal jurisdictions might have been a possible impediment to Robin taking his idea further. Its possible and apparently legal to bet in Australia over the internet. http://www.centrebet.com/australian-federal-election-2004.php I don't bet on sports but I was interested to see recently if it would be possible to bet on the Australian federal election. It is. Its the sportsbetting places that offer it. I think the law in this area in Australian has only been sorted out relatively recently though (late last year or early this year sort of recently). I think I heard or read somewhere that Jamie Packer was looking at internet betting as a promising future business area. I don't know what the situation is in the US, it could be that it varies state by state. If the US was a homogenous market (legislatively) it would seem to be by far the most sensible place to start a for-real-money futures market as it would have the biggest population of punters. > but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I > always thought that was the main obstacle. I'm not a lawyer. I am interested in the law. Some areas of it more than others, but I have never done a full law degree. Brett Paatsch From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 12:49:12 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:49:12 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <023601c49274$a55306c0$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <023601c49274$a55306c0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1094302152.24966.117.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 21:45 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 19:43 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on > say > > > molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being > > > bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater > opportunity > > > to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is > > > going to work? > > > > > but all bets are not about nanotech. > > Sure, but even so, mixing bears and bulls on any issue would give the best > market. And nanotech would be a good thing to have a market on. Its > already attracting plenty of commercial interest. > no doubt that would be best. what i meant was that the market is not completely invalidated just because it is a open to a few selected players. its value diminishes, certainly, especially in cases where the bias of the group is clear, but there's still plenty of other material to play on. > > > Or am I missing something? > > > > > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > > of places. > > Perceived and actual problems with different legislations across different > legal jurisdictions might have been a possible impediment to Robin taking > his idea further. > > Its possible and apparently legal to bet in Australia over the internet. > http://www.centrebet.com/australian-federal-election-2004.php > I don't bet on sports but I was interested to see recently if it would be > possible to bet on the Australian federal election. It is. Its the > sportsbetting places that offer it. > Yes, but they have a gambling license. Last i heard it was illegal for an australian to offer a betting service online without a gambling license. (It is still legal to bet online though). My assumption is that a gambling license would be ridiculously hard to get, but i'm just guessing there. > I'm not a lawyer. I am interested in the law. Some areas of it more than > others, but I have never done a full law degree. > Ah, sorry bout that. alejandro From neptune at superlink.net Sat Sep 4 13:54:38 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:54:38 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Piecing Together Human Aging: Science Online Special Collection Message-ID: <001101c49286$b8ef9b00$8d893cd1@pavilion> http://www.sciencemag.org/sciext/aging2004/ From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:16:10 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:16:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <59F72A4C-FE85-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Sep 4, 2004, at 3:58 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and > Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid > wasn't real. The other problem I had with these markets is that they didn't seem that accurate, despite all the claims. I looked back through the history of all the political predictions, and I couldn't see that they were any more accurate than the polls as suggested. Many of them were radically wrong. Most of them swung wildly back and forth between the two options and only settled on the right one just before the elections. A graph that radically oscillates between both choices back and forth has not predictive value, because you can extract any prediction you want at different times. I looked at political elections, because this is one of the best cases where I think the markets should be able to predict best. Elections are just voting people's preferences, as are markets, so they should be more predictable. But even these weren't. I am even less convinced that markets on technology would work. Without inside information, investors go on hype and what they believe is real, rather than making any real predictions. The Enron scandal and dot-com bubbles show that markets are driven on belief and not reality. While they work well in well understood areas, they are not good at predicting poorly understood areas. And I am really opposed to the concept of terrorist markets working. Besides having no information to work with, terrorists change their plans at a moment's notice and will specifically veer aware from a target with too much protection or public expectation. Even if the market got it right, I would expect the terrorists to cancel and avoid such a target so that it wouldn't really happen. My other concern was there were vague hints that the government didn't really intend to let people get rich on terrorist predictions, but instead would go after any winning investor as a probable terrorist with inside knowledge. When there were outcries from congress, they were told not to worry, that there was no intention of letting terrorists profit from this market or actually get away with making money from their crimes. This would destroy the value of a market, if it really worked, if people didn't get to keep their winnings or had their lives ruined by the government after being successful in the market. No one else would follow such an event with successful investing! -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:27:13 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:27:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2004, at 11:48 PM, Spike wrote: > The way the news media handled this storm Frances caused > many of the proletariat to flee in a panic. Nothing sells > news like danger, eh? Ordinarily I would be sympathetic > with that kind of thing, for after all profit was generated. I don't think this is fair, Spike. Earlier, this storm was just 10 MPH short of being a category 5 storm, like Anderw, the worst storm in history. Instead of grazing the bottom edge of the state and over some islands, it is going across the middle of the state. 20 people died in hurricane Charley, and this storm is still much bigger and much stronger. I don't see what is irresponsible about evacuating an area where dozens of people may be killed even after evacuation. Besides, the news media didn't invent the evacuation orders, these come straight from the government. You can't blame the media for people evacuating. > Honestly folks, it isn't the apocalyse, its just a storm. > Sure there will be some roof damage here and there, stuff > may fly around. But in most cases you are safer in your > sturdy home with adequate supplies, than on some clogged > freeway filled with panicky and sleepy yahoos creeping to > the north. Floridians, stand your ground! Spike, trees are already down in my home town of Melbourne now. They are predicting sustained winds of over 100 MPH for over 24 hours. Did you see the pictures from hurricane Charley? There are foundations with no houses on them. Forget mobile home parks which are totally gone now, I am talking about real structures that are not there anymore. People cannot weather the storm in such structures. This is how those 20 people died and hundreds were injured, trying to stay home. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:33:06 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:33:06 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:17:47 -0500, Damien Broderick > wrote: >> >>> how the other group came to be, and begin to >>> unde rstandtheminthatway. >>> >>> - or - >>> >>> It is already the case that many humans do not begin >>> to truly understandothersthattheyinteractwith. >>> For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly >> >> A lot of my email is arriving looking that way, with chunks of text >> stuck >> together. I'm using the freebie or ad-subsidized Eudora 6.11.Can >> anyone >> tell me what's happening here? >> >> Damien Broderick The freebie version of Eudora downloads advertisements constantly while you are using it. i think the higher network interrupts are interfering with your keystrokes if you type too fast. You might try unplugging your network cable to see if the typing improves. I know this isn't a solution, but it would test my theory. This is one of the reasons I hate adware, because it interferes with what you really want the computer to be doing. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:39:15 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:39:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Sep 4, 2004, at 7:10 AM, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > but all bets are not about nanotech. > >> Or am I missing something? >> > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > of places. but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I > always thought that was the main obstacle. Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big technology players already in the the existing markets, so that anybody can invest in the technologies they want already? -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 16:44:35 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:44:35 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:33:06 -0400, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > The freebie version of Eudora downloads advertisements constantly while > you are using it. i think the higher network interrupts are > interfering with your keystrokes if you type too fast. You might try > unplugging your network cable to see if the typing improves. I know > this isn't a solution, but it would test my theory. This is one of the > reasons I hate adware, because it interferes with what you really want > the computer to be doing. > You could move most of your high-volume email to google by opening a gmail account. Then use your browser (Mozilla, of course) to read and respond to gmails. And use Mozilla mail for the emails that you want to store on your own pc. Most people save megabytes of disk space by moving to gmail. And you can access it from anywhere. Best wishes, BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 4 17:06:22 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:06:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Clark Kent's Daily Planet computer Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040904120539.01bd91e8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> ...might look like this: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/underwood/ Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 17:29:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040904172952.18715.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > But the newsers have acted very irresponsibly. Of course they have. They are NOT public services, despite what they claim and the sheeple think. They are profit centers. > The fleeing > proles have evidently failed to calculate the range of their > Detroits and failed to adequately plan what they would do > at the end of that fuel tank. (These soldiers will never > make general. I hope.) With inadequate fuel and food aboard, > now there are dead conveyances everywhere along I95 and I75, > the two major arteries out of Florida, filled with panicked > proles, frantically searching for fuel, food and water. Well > fer crying the hell out loud! They have put themselves in > greater danger than if they would just sit tight at home. Lemmings. Of course, few of them, if any, had prepared for such eventualities despite living their lives in hurricane alley. No gasoline stockpiles in the garage, durable food supplies or potable water. People were apparently pissed about Charley too, they were told, depending on their community, to either evacuate to locations that wound up in the path of the storm, or they were not adequately warned and they wound up bearing the brunt. > They keep saying there is a mandatory evacuation, but of > course no one has the authority to make you leave your > home. Its *your* home. The CEO of my company told me he got a statement from the Chief of Police of Palm Beach, who apparently has tried to declare a state of emergency (under what authority did he do that?), and has banned the sale or display of guns or ammunition by retail establishments and banned the stockpiling of ammo and the bearing of firearms in Palm Beach for the duration. I hope he gets his career handed to him next city council meeting. People should be outraged. The boss has ignored the evacuation and is holed up at the office without power and armed to the gills, as some squirrelly characters were scoping out the industrial area he is in. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 17:37:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040904173738.10465.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > > Honestly folks, it isn't the apocalyse, its just a storm. > > Sure there will be some roof damage here and there, stuff > > may fly around. But in most cases you are safer in your > > sturdy home with adequate supplies, than on some clogged > > freeway filled with panicky and sleepy yahoos creeping to > > the north. Floridians, stand your ground! > > Spike, trees are already down in my home town of Melbourne now. They > are predicting sustained winds of over 100 MPH for over 24 hours. Did > you see the pictures from hurricane Charley? There are foundations > with no houses on them. Forget mobile home parks which are totally > gone now, I am talking about real structures that are not there > anymore. People cannot weather the storm in such structures. This > is how those 20 people died and hundreds were injured, trying to stay > home. Well, Melbourne is certainly getting the brunt end of things here. Hope your home makes it through, Harvey. Frances is currently holding at max winds of 105 mph at the eyewall. Gusts that high are occuring as far as 100 miles away from the eye, but sustained winds by landfall should be 73 mph, at about 4-5 am tomorrow. Nowhere near Andrew strength. They are now predicting a storm surge of only 6 feet and rain of 8-20 inches across Florida. The shuttles should make it through okay unless something freakish happens. Wind speeds at Palm Beach are currently only 30-45 mph. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 19:50:33 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:50:33 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <20040904173738.10465.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040904173738.10465.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2004, at 1:37 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Well, Melbourne is certainly getting the brunt end of things here. Hope > your home makes it through, Harvey. Thanks. The storm has greatly deteriorated from close to category 5 down to category 2. If it doesn't regenerate, everything should be fine. It is stalling over the warmest part of the gulf stream, which is the best recipe for strengthening. So it's still unpredictable, but I am guessing that it will not strengthen much. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP, ISSAP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From kpj at sics.se Sat Sep 4 20:10:12 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:10:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] F2F (was: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? ) In-Reply-To: Message from Zero Powers of "Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:51:53 PDT." <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200409042010.i84KACo15780@r2d2.sics.se> Zero Powers : | |But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our |technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for |years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail |them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the |phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But |F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. In my experience, people who meet each other F2F (and who do not start to hate each other) tend to later allow each other to be more of a nuisance than people who have never met. For interactions with a system of rules, like law or business, this may not become essential but in an informal setting, like a mailing list or the like, people who have been charming F2F tend to get better treatment than somebody who people have never met F2F. Your mileage may vary. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Sep 4 20:32:17 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:32:17 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040904203217.GL1458@leitl.org> On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 05:44:35PM +0100, BillK wrote: > You could move most of your high-volume email to google by opening a > gmail account. Then use your browser (Mozilla, of course) to read and This sounds like a bad idea. 1 GByte is not much to start with -- right now my inbox is 0.7 GBytes. It's less than a year old, and I tend to delete spam and messages with large attachements. Plus, there's no POP3/IMAP, no ways to import your existing mail (nevermind the privacy issues), and no guarantee for data loss. > respond to gmails. > And use Mozilla mail for the emails that you want to store on your own pc. Mmh, no. Mozilla can't handle the volume, and has terrible UI. Dog slow. > Most people save megabytes of disk space by moving to gmail. And you Why should I want to save anything? Storage is essentially free. You just have to remember which hard drive on which computer, and crossmirror regularly (still haven't built the TByte RAID yet). > can access it from anywhere. I can access my computers from anywhere just fine. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 23:29:50 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] F2F (was: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? ) In-Reply-To: <200409042010.i84KACo15780@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040904232950.68521.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- KPJ wrote: > Zero Powers : > | > |But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our > |technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for > |years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail > |them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the > |phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But > |F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. > > In my experience, people who meet each other F2F (and who do not > start > to hate each other) tend to later allow each other to be more of a > nuisance > than people who have never met. I have to agree here. I'm getting more involved in my new job at 1-800-serve-em.com and it's a pretty slick system we have here (it runs on a proprietary database applet server called World View our owner developed). We generally never meet any of our clients or our subcontractors, and of course if I ever meet someone who is a target of our civil process services and is seeking us out, I hope I'm armed. Outside of phone calls, faxes, and emails, we almost never meet anybody we do business with. People hire us via fax or email without ever calling, they pay us via faxed check or credit card, and receive our services quickly and without any other communication if their target is not difficult to find. Now, anonymous transactions in this business are necessarily impossible, since it is in the civil process service, and the plaintiff and defendant generally always know each other to some degree, but if we do our job right, with law firm on one side and local process server on the other, we are the anonymous man in the middle that the parties on either end never hear about. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 23:37:06 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] F2F (was: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? ) In-Reply-To: <200409042010.i84KACo15780@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040904233706.40599.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> WRT my previous post: my company HQ is currently in West Palm Beach, and thanks to Hurricane Frances, is suffering a power outage, all the computers are packed away, windows boarded up, and the front door is getting sucked off its hinges. You'd think we would be paralyzed, if not finished, right? Nah, the server is in a vault in Miami, and I'm the lucky guy who just opened our first branch office in New Hampshire, so all the boss had to do was forward all calls to my location here at Manchester International Airport and I've been flying the company solo for the last 48 hours (the office is so new our T-1 isn't in until Tuesday, I've been running things with two phone lines and a dial-up account). Outside of an inability of some customers to reach other employees or the owner, we are still open for business and making money. Ask me if I'm tired.... ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 5 00:53:06 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:53:06 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> Message-ID: <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > On Sep 4, 2004, at 7:10 AM, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > but all bets are not about nanotech. > > > >> Or am I missing something? > >> > > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > > of places. but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I > > always thought that was the main obstacle. > > Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big > technology players already in the the existing markets, so that anybody > can invest in the technologies they want already? I like transhumanist groups for their optimism but find them infuriating and ultimately disappointing for their lack of pragmatism. I have the same problem with religious believers. As people most believers are very human and very likeable, as planners and investors and fashioners of better futures though, people who have too much of the vision and hope thing and not enough practicality are massive wasters of their own time, of other peoples time and most importantly to me of my time. If it was possible to bet against some transhumanists who make wild technological claims then their would be a way of winnowing out those that know what they are talking about from those that don't. The scientists would stand out from the pseudoscientists. There would be a financial reason to correct other peoples homework and give a blow by blow of the errors in it. Without a financial reason there is little reason to take the trouble of exposing thoroughgoing crap as crap. One is perceived as being purely negative rather than of providing a service. And yet it is a service to criticise ideas that cannot possible succeed because it frees up resources and energy that otherwise would have been wasted to be deployed into more promising areas. Any transhumanist that makes a radical claim for technology that is based on genuinely better understanding should be able to bet against someone that is a sceptic and expect to win the bet. If they are right and do win then they achieve two things a) they have additional funds for pursuing and implementing their idea and b) they have pursuaded the sceptic. If they are wrong then they may be embarassed into shutting the hell up and they'd have to creep off and lick their wounds for a while, which would be a good thing for encouraging critical thought in the rest. I think that the truth is that most people have both good and bad ideas in them and noble and ignoble traits. Making bets (investing real money) against others that disagree with you can focus the critical faculties around the subject of the bet. Cryonics and molecular nanotechnology will not be developed at all unless there are a series of practical milestones achieved along the way to the ultimate goal. The very fact that cryonicists and molecular nanotechnologists are in a minority means that most of the betters would be betting against them in an open market and so if they are right they could clean up and fund their research and convert those that would bet against them. Perhaps the same is true for those who are trying to develop some forms of AI. Over time I think a market or public betting system would make transhumanists make more realistic plans. Those more practical would acquire the wealth of those less practical. Those who didn't want to bet wouldn't have to but they could still learn by watching. What would emerge would be a sort of meritocracy of anlaytical and practical skill but specifically in the area of technologies that are of interest to transhumanists. Transhumanism would be better and more effective for seeing off some of the uncritical pseudoscientific beliefs. A good way to tell what is real and what is not is give those with opposing views the opportunity to benefit from being right. Brett Paatsch From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sun Sep 5 01:16:16 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:16:16 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <2FB0ECD4-FED9-11D8-94FE-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Sep 4, 2004, at 8:53 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Harvey Newstrom wrote: > >> Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big >> technology players already in the the existing markets, so that >> anybody >> can invest in the technologies they want already? > > If it was possible to bet against some transhumanists who make wild > technological claims then their would be a way of winnowing out those > that know what they are talking about from those that don't. The > scientists > would stand out from the pseudoscientists. [....] I wish. But I think you misunderstood my question. I know why you want a market. What I am asking is what's wrong with the markets that already exist. Why can't we use those markets to invest in technology and test our theories? Why do we need a new market, and what would make it different? -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP, ISSAP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From live2scan at bellsouth.net Sun Sep 5 04:32:35 2004 From: live2scan at bellsouth.net (Dennis Roberts) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:32:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] National Cancer Institute - Nanotechnology Message-ID: <001401c49301$5e1a5190$6101a8c0@dennis45d1tptn> The more health oriented might be interested in this 'cast, I'm going to try to be there(web-wise anyway). http://nano.cancer.gov/nano_highlights_webcast-details.asp Dennis Roberts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 5 02:36:06 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:36:06 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> <2FB0ECD4-FED9-11D8-94FE-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> Message-ID: <030601c492f1$18a64520$ec202dcb@homepc> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > On Sep 4, 2004, at 8:53 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > > >> Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big > >> technology players already in the the existing markets, so that > >> anybody can invest in the technologies they want already? > > > > If it was possible to bet against some transhumanists who make wild > > technological claims then their would be a way of winnowing out those > > that know what they are talking about from those that don't. The > > scientists would stand out from the pseudoscientists. > [....] > > I wish. > > But I think you misunderstood my question. I know why you want a > market. What I am asking is what's wrong with the markets that already > exist. Why can't we use those markets to invest in technology and test > our theories? Why do we need a new market, and what would make it > different? On what futures market could I invest *against* the viability of cryonics, or *against* the Drexlerian vision of molecular nanotech, or *against* the possibility of friendly AI. So far as I can tell the people who are *for* these things don't have any money to bet with. Many of these things to me stand out as laudable understandable human reactions against particular worldviews. I can like and relate to the sort of person who wants cryonics to succeed, who wants to have genie machines that liberate all people from hard work and from having to compete for resources, I can warm to the sensitivity of someone that wants higher forms of justice and better clearer more humane management by friendly AI, but these folk are too hard to effectively constructively criticise because they remove themselves from effective criticism by making all critics criticise them for free. Its sort of like religious believers who will only take criticism from their friends who have to swear an oath of believing to qualify. Good criticism is hard time consuming work, pulling apart illusions that emotionally one would rather share is disillusioning. I want to be compensated for doing it. Betting is a way of getting compensation entirely on the basis of results. And if you fail, if your judgement is wrong, then the people you reward, you want to reward, they deserve it. Not a cent is wasted on paying useless middlemen who don't exercise any judgement or take any real risk or even dare to have much vision. If there was a market on which some goals along the pathways to these things were put out as hypotheses or futures contracts it would be possible for me to bet *against* what seem to me to be impractical approaches to improving the human condition (including my own condition) and if I was wrong in better on the pessimistic side I'd be pleased to pay up. Its like a hedging strategy. I'd have bought optimism that was rationally compatible. You pit your head against your heart and when you head wins and your heart looses you at least walk away richer. Then your better resourced for next time. But when you bet against an optimist part of you hopes to lose because if you do lose you have to lose not to a better heart but to a better head. When you lose to a better head, you learn. I have only a rough understanding of what futures markets are available in the US. I suspect I could probably put together a pretty good portfolio of tech stocks and if I was willing to watch it closely enough I could probably outperform the market. I don't say this egotistically, I have tried this (though not specifically with tech stocks) specifically in Australian (in 1991) and in a single year I made a paper profit of 100%. I think I actually had a method and that it was not luck. But it was boring. It was boring because I didn't care about the stocks. I actually wanted to build something and to do something with life not to just make money out-thinking other people in stupid zero sum games in what seemed like a stale stupid and unimaginative world. None of the stocks that I could invest in in Australia in 1991 were actively pursuing what I wanted to pursue which was radical life extension tech. I wanted to make or encourage the creation of the sort of businesses that would make the sort of products that I would want to buy. The reason that I'd be keen to bet against some of the techs that transhumanists believe in is because I have spent a good bit of time investigating some of them pretty deeply and I think I know why they won't work. I want the sort of folks I like - tech savy humanists to do well in the world and to prosper - and I think they will do that better if they get a bit more practical. Brett Paatsch From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 05:51:13 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:51:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <061001c4930c$5a8eb8d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Harvey Newstrom > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances ... > > Spike, trees are already down in my home town of Melbourne now. They > are predicting sustained winds of over 100 MPH for over 24 > hours. Did you see the pictures from hurricane Charley?... I did, and that is a perfect introduction to my point. Some Floridians live in storm surge areas, in tar paper shacks, in mobile homes. Sure these guys need to get the hailllll outta Dodge. But most Floridians need to assess their positions in a sober logical way. Most Floridians live in sturdy cinder block houses with steel truss anchors and foundation bolts. They built them that way because they live in hurricane country. My beef is that the governments and news made people think they were *legally required* to leave their homes, MANDATORY evacuation and so forth. I say to hell with that. If I build my home to stand against a hurricane, then I intend to STAY IN IT, and I don't care what the local constabulary says. You may recall my rant against requiring smoke detectors. This situation is a little like that. As they are installed, on the ceilings, smoke detectors have batteries in them that run out after a couple years, then they start to chirp, the battery must be replaced, even if it is in the middle of the night, by climbing upon a ladder or other structure. If the homeowner is in any one of the following categories {elderly, clumsy, stoned, sleepy, drunk, sick, epileptic, cocky, weak, blind or stupid (and who among us has never been in one or more of these categories at some time?)} then the law has introduced more risk to that homeowner than they would have had with no smoke detectors at all, particularly if the homeowner doesn't smoke! In the storm sitch, many if not most Floridians are living in damn sturdy houses, with all the trees trimmed and all the debris carefully picked up. To order these people out onto the freeway where there may or may not be adequate fuel, water, food and medical supplies on the route, is silly and dangerous. It introduces more risk than the storm. Nowthen, to sharpen my criticism of the news media and to offer a solution, please read on. The news agencies create the illusion of greater destruction than is actually the case. They need to, thats the nature of the business. They must show images of a structure that has blown over, a devastated trailer park, those dramatic videos of blowing palm trees. But the majority of homes come thru with little damage, perhaps a broken window here or a few shingles torn off there, an aluminum awning that lands somewhere in the next county, nothing serious. Remember the earthquake of 89? Did you watch the news that time? Didn't they make it look like the whole San Francisco Bay was on fire? My poor parents, they already have bad nerves. But the damage was fairly localized, with the rest of us suffering only minor damage. Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house. Then when an earthquake hits or a storm comes, everyone can log on and take a *random survey* of the local homes. In 89, the ExIers could have quickly learned that over 99% homes stood up fine, a broken window here, a masonry crack there, most homes suffering no damage. The news artificially concentrates the damage scenes, making look a lot worse than it really is. A random walk thru neighborhood videos might have you searching for hours before one found *any* earthquake damage, and I suspect the same for serious hurricane damage. Right now *most of those evacuated Florida neighborhoods* are doing just fine, and heres the worst part for those who fled: they have a few neighbors who calmly assessed their risks, and decided to board up the windows, picked up the plastic lawn flamingos, set in a few days supplies, told the sheriff to go to mind his own business. Those people are having the time of their lives! They may have holed up with their sweethearts, they're in there in the dark playing strip twister, trying for the world record in olympic copulation, or whatever. They're riding out that storm, doing all those things they did when they first met but are now usually too busy or too distracted to do. No TV, no internet, no video games, not a single luxury. Like Robinson Caruso, it's primitive as can be. Wouldn't you like to do that for a couple days? I would. I urge people to look around at their house and think. In many cases the right answer is STAND FIRM soldier! Hold your ground. Thats what both sets of my parents decided to do, not far from Melbourne. I don't like to think of them down there playing naked twister (ewww), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is what they are doing right this minute, as Frances rages outside. spike From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 07:06:11 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:06:11 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances Message-ID: Spike: >Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam >in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house. >Then when an earthquake hits or a storm comes, everyone can >log on and take a *random survey* of the local homes. >In 89, the ExIers could have quickly learned that over 99% >homes stood up fine, a broken window here, a masonry crack >there, most homes suffering no damage. I wonder where was your home, Spike, because mine had no electricity for about 24 hours during the '89 earthquake. I (and my neighbors) were in the middle of suburban Cupertino. Makes it difficult to set up a web cam, no? Driving in to make a survey: the freeways were blocked off in many places. (and the electrical outage caused streetlights to be off). OK, bicycles and legs still worked. Flying in to make a survey: not possible either because San Jose Airport was closed (I know because I was supposed to fly out to Arizona early the next morning for an astronomy observing trip, and the flight was delayed) while the runways were inspected for damage. Minor damage, I agree, yes, but I was cleaning up the glass in my kitchen for days, and I lost a few irreplaceable pieces in the living room when the bookcases bounced a few feet, and my Mac Plus, when it fell over, displayed the cracks in the case for the rest of its life. >A random walk thru neighborhood videos might >have you searching for hours before one found *any* earthquake >damage, and I suspect the same for serious hurricane damage. well........ Amara From benboc at lineone.net Sun Sep 5 14:01:19 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:01:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [extropy-chat Digest] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <200409041016.i84AGY016607@tick.javien.com> References: <200409041016.i84AGY016607@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <413B1C2F.6040301@lineone.net> Samantha said: > Is a sim perhaps what happens when a sufficiently powerful mind > ruminates over the past and possible different branch points? Well, seeing as we are constantly making models of the world, including other people, in our puny minds, i think that is almost certain to be true! I had never thought of it this way before, always imagining the 'sim' argument to apply to something like the equivalent of somebody playing a computer game, or doing some lab work. Now it occurs to me that we are just somebody's daydream! (which, ironically, would make the god-squad correct in a lot of their beliefs) ... can you hear the sound of collapsing nested realities, as some superbeing rouses itself from an idle daydream, to go and do some real work? ben From hibbert at mydruthers.com Sun Sep 5 17:51:15 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:51:15 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413B5213.2050300@mydruthers.com> > Wait a minute, its coming back to me now. We have been > over this ground before. Either that or I am having > deja vu, that strange feeling you sometimz get... > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > thanks. I helped run a real money Idea Futures market for members of the Foresight Institute that ran for a couple of years several years ago. The hard part is deciding in what manner you are going to attempt not be too visible to some overzealous politician or prosecutor. The main problem isn't that it's clearly illegal, the problem is that it's not clearly legal. It doesn't matter if it's inside a private organization: if you allow it to be visible, then a prosecutor can go after you if he wants, and he gets to use taxpayer funds, while you have to defend yourself at your own expense. There are local laws all over the US that make gambling illegal, and for the most part, they're broadly written. The only safe approach is to not attract the attention of those who might benefit from starting a prosecution. I think there are good arguments why a well-run IF market wouldn't cause the kind of social ills that make detractors want to shut down all gambling (or all gambling that competes with state-sanctioned gambling) but it appears to take more than that to convince people with money that it's a safe investment. The Foresight IF market was shut down when Foresight hired a new Executive Director (since departed) who wanted to get everything ship-shape and have a serious audit. He couldn't figure out how to categorize the money they were holding for the IF market so it wouldn't raise questions with the accountants, so he asked us to shut it down. Chris -- Currently reading: Mancur Olson, The Logic of Collective Action On my Clie: Alexandar Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Sep 5 18:42:09 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:42:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040428/04 Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers. Fearing the measure will pave the way for creationist teaching, more than 40,000 citizens-and the number is still increasing-have subscribed a petition launched last week by some of the country's top scientists through the daily La Repubblica. The document, signed by Nobel laureates Rita Levi Montalcini and Renato Dulbecco, together with scientists including Luca Cavalli Sforza, Bruno Dallapiccola, and Alberto Piazza, urges Moratti to "review the secondary schools programs and to rectify an oversight which is detrimental to the scientific culture of future generations." "Ignoring the theory of evolution is a cultural limitation sacrificing the scientific curiosity of youth. It's unquestionably fair to point out that Darwinism and the theories that derived from it show gaps and unsolved problems, but the link between the past and the present of mankind shouldn't be completely ignored," write the scientists. The Italian school system, which Moratti aims to reform shortly, is divided into three levels: primary school ("scuola elementare"), which lasts 5 years, from 6 to 11 years of age, secondary school ("scuola media"), which lasts 3 years, and high school ("scuola superiore"), which lasts 5 years. Established by legislative decree on February 19, the new teaching programs for secondary schools make no mention of the history of human evolution, nor of the relationship between mankind and other species. As a result, boys and girls aged 12 to 14 will have no idea of subjects such as "Structure, Function, and Evolution of Living Organisms" and "The Biological and Cultural Evolution of Mankind," said the scientists who launched the petition. From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Sun Sep 5 18:57:57 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:57:57 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: This news is a bit old (as you can see on the article, dated april 28). Thanks to the massive backslash, the no-evolution plan has been cancelled, like almost everything proposed so far by Moratti since she become minister of education. She's the most idiotic education minister ever seen, and is widely disliked in ALL italian schools. Alfio On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Damien Broderick wrote: > >http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040428/04 > >Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan >by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, >to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers. > >Fearing the measure will pave the way for creationist teaching, more than >40,000 citizens-and the number is still increasing-have subscribed a >petition launched last week by some of the country's top scientists through >the daily La Repubblica. > >The document, signed by Nobel laureates Rita Levi Montalcini and Renato >Dulbecco, together with scientists including Luca Cavalli Sforza, Bruno >Dallapiccola, and Alberto Piazza, urges Moratti to "review the secondary >schools programs and to rectify an oversight which is detrimental to the >scientific culture of future generations." > >"Ignoring the theory of evolution is a cultural limitation sacrificing the >scientific curiosity of youth. It's unquestionably fair to point out that >Darwinism and the theories that derived from it show gaps and unsolved >problems, but the link between the past and the present of mankind shouldn't >be completely ignored," write the scientists. > >The Italian school system, which Moratti aims to reform shortly, is divided >into three levels: primary school ("scuola elementare"), which lasts 5 >years, from 6 to 11 years of age, secondary school ("scuola media"), which >lasts 3 years, and high school ("scuola superiore"), which lasts 5 years. > >Established by legislative decree on February 19, the new teaching programs >for secondary schools make no mention of the history of human evolution, nor >of the relationship between mankind and other species. > >As a result, boys and girls aged 12 to 14 will have no idea of subjects such >as "Structure, Function, and Evolution of Living Organisms" and "The >Biological and Cultural Evolution of Mankind," said the scientists who >launched the petition. > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 19:23:19 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:23:19 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <062101c4937d$cf368bb0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Amara Graps > Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances > > > Spike: > >Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam > >in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house... > > I wonder where was your home, Spike, because mine had no electricity > for about 24 hours during the '89 earthquake. I (and my neighbors) > were in the middle of suburban Cupertino. Makes it difficult to set > up a web cam, no? Oops you are right. I was without power for almost a day. We would hafta set these things to run on battery power for a while. > Minor damage, I agree, yes, but I was cleaning up the glass in my > kitchen for days, and I lost a few irreplaceable pieces in the > living room when the bookcases bounced a few feet, and my Mac Plus, > when it fell over, displayed the cracks in the case for the rest of > its life. Ja me too. My bookselves fell over on top of my two-week new MacSE30. Didn't damage the machine, but scuffed the case. I'll tell you, that machine was such a beauty: Motorola 68030 processor, screaming along at an unimaginable 8 megaHertz, memory upgraded to a full MEGABYTE of RAM (oh my goodness) and a 40 Mb hard disk! Paid more for that machine than a new subcompact car, but ooohhh boy, was I ever in the big leagues. The Vic20 I had been using was a joke in comparison to that. Of course the Vic20 was a joke compared to anything, but still. I see your point: we would need battery power to set up a random damage assessment system. spike From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 19:28:32 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoscale LED's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040905192832.79588.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> Extropes, I've never waivered in my belief that the tech revolution is the real deal, driven by the ever-accelerating pace of tech research-slash-discovery-slash-application. While I agree with Harvey that the expanse of new possible knowledge--the previously unknown now partly seen out of the mists of Maya--is vast, yet it is a challenge not so much from accessibility as from the hugeness of the task... of exploration. It is a vast "orchard" to be sure, but an orchard of "low hanging fruit". A vast job of easy pickins for a world soon to be 'enhanced' by an equally vast emerging multitude of Chinese and Indian techies. Yeah, baby! Bring it on. Nanocrystals Spark Efficient LEDs http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/09/rnb_090204.asp?trk=nl ...The light-emitting diodes can be as small as a few nanometers in diameter... ...The nanoscale lights use very little power and can be made in different colors ***simply***[my emphasis] by varying the sizes of the nanocrystals. ... ...Nanocrystals are easy to manufacture, durable, and are very efficient light emitters. ... Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Sun Sep 5 19:30:52 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 21:30:52 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [extropy-chat Digest] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <413B1C2F.6040301@lineone.net> References: <200409041016.i84AGY016607@tick.javien.com> <413B1C2F.6040301@lineone.net> Message-ID: <20040905193052.GB1458@leitl.org> On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 03:01:19PM +0100, ben wrote: > Well, seeing as we are constantly making models of the world, including > other people, in our puny minds, i think that is almost certain to be true! You think, and therefore others are saved. If others think, maybe you're saved, too? Mutual modelling fund! Jesus saves!!1 I think advanced aliens/$DEITY are thinking it, and therefore you might have been saved already!!! Or is it simulating? Nevermind. I can FEEL it. Halelluja! Welcome to the Universal Church of Simulation Argument! > I had never thought of it this way before, always imagining the 'sim' > argument to apply to something like the equivalent of somebody playing a > computer game, or doing some lab work. > Now it occurs to me that we are just somebody's daydream! (which, > ironically, would make the god-squad correct in a lot of their beliefs) Leave the religion part to the establishement. They do it much better, having quite a routine by now. > ... can you hear the sound of collapsing nested realities, as some > superbeing rouses itself from an idle daydream, to go and do some real work? That's the right cue. How about some real work, indeed? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 19:37:04 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:37:04 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradiosignal from alien) In-Reply-To: <413B5213.2050300@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <062201c4937f$bc8db630$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Chris Hibbert > Subject: Re: Why bet only imaginary money? > > > Wait a minute, its coming back to me now...Either that or I am having > > deja vu, that strange feeling you someti...mz get... > > > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > > it hasn't already been done. > > > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > > thanks. > > I helped run a real money Idea Futures market for members of the > Foresight Institute that ran for a couple of years several years ago... > The Foresight IF market was shut down when Foresight hired a new > Executive Director... Chris OK I recall now that several years ago there was a meme on play money IFX that someone would invent a real money IFX. The price went up until I noticed it had been retired at true. I never heard who was running it. My memory of that had gone dim. Growing old is hell. But now that I think about it, the opposite, aging in reverse, might be bad too: you would forget the stuff that you learned as you grew older. You would get less wise, would become poorer in most cases, and I can imagine going thru puberty in reverse would be a major letdown. spike From hibbert at mydruthers.com Sun Sep 5 21:54:26 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:54:26 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradiosignal from alien) In-Reply-To: <062201c4937f$bc8db630$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <062201c4937f$bc8db630$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413B8B12.4020107@mydruthers.com> > OK I recall now that several years ago there was a meme > on play money IFX that someone would invent a real money > IFX. The price went up until I noticed it had been > retired at true. I never heard who was running it. > My memory of that had gone dim. Growing old is > hell. But now that I think about it, the opposite, > aging in reverse, might be bad too: you would forget > the stuff that you learned as you grew older. You would > get less wise, would become poorer in most cases, and I can > imagine going thru puberty in reverse would be a > major letdown. Growing old is indeed hell. You *have* forgotten the stuff you once might have known. The claim $vIF ("Real money version of Idea Futures before 1/1/2000") closed at 0. There were no publicly accessible versions of Idea Futures at the time the claim closed. http://www.ideosphere.com/fx-bin/Claim?claim=$vIF There are now several gambling sites using the IF ideas, but they mostly offer the opportunity to bet on sports or election claims. Nothing futuristic, and nothing long term. Chris -- Currently reading: Mancur Olson, The Logic of Collective Action On my Clie: Alexandar Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:12:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:12:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Spider Bites Message-ID: Until today, I have never been bitten by a spider. As soon as it happened, I began to search for the proper treatment. What I found was very disappointing. Apparently, our technology is still at such a low level that we don;t even have a treatment for spider bites. Nothing has been developed to counter the venom of any of the spiders that could have been the cause of the bite. The tretments consist of making sure I don;t apply heat because this increases tissue damage, not applying topical steroids, keeping ice on it to ease the pain and swelling, possibly taking antihistamines to reduce itching, and taking ibuprofen for pain. Other than that, I simply have to ride it out. Whatever damage is going to occur to the skin over the next several days is pretty much inevitable. All I can do is try to prevent secondary infection. Singularity seems awfully far away at a time like this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:05:15 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 01:05:15 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] amara@amara.com Message-ID: Alfio: >This news is a bit old (as you can see on the article, dated april 28). >Thanks to the massive backslash, the no-evolution plan has been cancelled, >like almost everything proposed so far by Moratti since she become >minister of education. She's the most idiotic education minister ever >seen, and is widely disliked in ALL italian schools. Not only education. Her complete title is "Minister for Education, and Universities and Scientific Research". http://www.governo.it/Governo/Biografie/moratti_letizia_eng.html >From what I've observed at my work, she is loathed in the scientific research areas as well. How did a person who has absolutely no experience in science and research earn that position of Minister? It makes me very depressed about Italy. Amara From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:09:20 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 01:09:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians Message-ID: (sorry for the bad headers previously) Alfio: >This news is a bit old (as you can see on the article, dated april 28). >Thanks to the massive backslash, the no-evolution plan has been cancelled, >like almost everything proposed so far by Moratti since she become >minister of education. She's the most idiotic education minister ever >seen, and is widely disliked in ALL italian schools. Not only education. Her complete title is "Minister for Education, and Universities and Scientific Research". http://www.governo.it/Governo/Biografie/moratti_letizia_eng.html >From what I've observed at my work, she is loathed in the scientific research areas as well. How did a person who has absolutely no experience in science and research earn that position of Minister? It makes me very depressed about Italy. Amara From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:43:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:13:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> References: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040905164342d715bc@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:56:12 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Sep 2, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> Us vs Them develops when there are such difference > >> between the groups > >> that there is little mutual understanding and when > >> there are > >> conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is > >> when one or both > >> groups sees the other as a threat that must be > >> eliminated. > > > > *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that it > > need not always happen - like, say, by trying to > > develop mutual understanding or find ways to make the > > needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to > > destroying the other group. > > What if one group develops and willingly uses such enhancements that > the group without them is no more capable of understanding them than a > ant is capable of understanding a human? > I would hope that we wont get such huge discontinuities, without also having intermediate groups who can facilitate communication between entities at each extreme. Something very important in this for us is to promote the concept of respecting each other, no matter our (chosen) difference. The kinds of problems we can get from lack of communication are primarily based in the entities not respecting each other, and not trying to empathise with each other. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Sep 6 00:11:12 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:11:12 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradiosignal from alien) References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <413B5213.2050300@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <03ce01c493a6$047c3680$ec202dcb@homepc> Chris Hibbert wrote: > I helped run a real money Idea Futures market for members > of the Foresight Institute that ran for a couple of years several > years ago. Good on you for trying anyway. > The hard part is deciding in what manner you are > going to attempt not be too visible to some overzealous politician > or prosecutor. This seems like the wrong way to look at the problem to me. >The main problem isn't that it's clearly illegal, the problem is that > it's not clearly legal. If a person doesn't do something because it might be illegal but they are not sure then they may not do anything. None of us are born knowing the laws of our land - some of us try to understand them because they make up the environment in which we are going to have to live. I am not advocating lawbreaking, but I would advocate finding out what the law actually is. > It doesn't matter if it's inside a private organization: > if you allow it to be visible, then a prosecutor can go after you if he > wants, and he gets to use taxpayer funds, while you have to defend > yourself at your own expense. Lets say that's true. Are you talking federal prosecutor or state prosecutor? Why would they want - where is the upside for them ? If the organisation holding and/or processing the bets infrastructure or legal office was in say Switzerland then would would "the prosecutor" in the US state or federal be able to go after it? I suspect not but I'm not an expert. > There are local laws all over the US that make gambling illegal, and > for the most part, they're broadly written. Thats not surprising. > The only safe approach > is to not attract the attention of those who might benefit from starting > a prosecution. I couldn't disagree more strongly. The sensible approach to me looks to be more to work out ways of doing it in serious scale. So that the organisation has financial credibility and so that law firms and lawyers who might be inclined to work pro bono or for the professional kudo would be interested in working against vexatious legal costs leveraging. > ... He couldn't figure out how to > categorize the money they were holding for the IF market so it wouldn't > raise questions with the accountants, so he asked us to shut it down. This makes accountants and lawyers sound a bit like priests and magicians to be feared by mere mortals for the black arts they practice. Surely a knowledge of law and/or a capacity to balance books and work with numbers doesn't automatically preclude a person from being interested in making money out of technology related futures. Brett Paatsch From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 00:47:14 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:17:14 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Spider Bites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc040905174729c053ee@mail.gmail.com> We have some decent antivenom treatments in Australia, but then the spiders are a bit more problematic. Funnelweb spiders can ruin your whole day. Redbacks aren't much fun either. http://www.avru.unimelb.edu.au/avruweb/spiderfa.htm#funnel%20webs -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Freels Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:12:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Spider Bites To: ExI chat list Until today, I have never been bitten by a spider. As soon as it happened, I began to search for the proper treatment. What I found was very disappointing. Apparently, our technology is still at such a low level that we don;t even have a treatment for spider bites. Nothing has been developed to counter the venom of any of the spiders that could have been the cause of the bite. The tretments consist of making sure I don;t apply heat because this increases tissue damage, not applying topical steroids, keeping ice on it to ease the pain and swelling, possibly taking antihistamines to reduce itching, and taking ibuprofen for pain. Other than that, I simply have to ride it out. Whatever damage is going to occur to the skin over the next several days is pretty much inevitable. All I can do is try to prevent secondary infection. Singularity seems awfully far away at a time like this. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 02:57:06 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> I have some too. Email me if you want one. -s On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > would like one. > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 03:46:16 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:16:16 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> I've got more too (feel free to ask!). I think it's safe to say that nowadays, if you want an invite you can get one. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > -s > > > > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > would like one. > > > > - Jef > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 04:30:37 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:00:37 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Advice needed about IP Message-ID: <710b78fc040905213072053d64@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I need a bit of advice (privately) about IP, particularly with regards to logos / brand names. Anyone who has had some useful experience or has some knowledge of this, especially regarding the US, I'd be grateful if you'd email me privately, and I'll outline my problem. Thanks! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From scerir at libero.it Mon Sep 6 06:16:38 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 08:16:38 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <001a01c493d9$123e36f0$f9b11b97@administxl09yj> Moratti, apparently, said, in March, that biology lessons need not feature evolution, but apparently added that creationism should be a part of voluntary religious-studies classes (Nature 428, 595, 2004). "It is absolutely not true that the Ministry has removed the teaching of evolutionary theory from primary and middle schools. The discussion of Darwinian theory, a foundation of modern biological science, is assured for students from 6 to 18 years, according to gradual didactic theories. I wish in this regard to restate that the main objective of the school Reform is to create free consciences, developing a critical sense in students from the first years of their schooling. We wish to assure our children, under the guidance of teachers, a plurality of sources and opinions, so that they can compare and form their own critical consciences. We wish to stimulate all students to think, from the smallest to the oldest, so that they can form a responsible personality based on principles, values, lifestyles, and behaviors [which are] conscious, founded on respect for others, and open to comparison." (April, 28) Minister Moratti added that, given the recent debate, a commission has been formed to study the question of evolution and give precise pointers to create a basis for all 'curricula'. This commission is headed by Rita Levi Montalcini (senator for life and Nobel prize winner in medicine), and includes Carlo Rubbia, Nobel for physics, Roberto Colombo, professor of neurobiology and genetics at the Universit? Cattolica Sacro Cuore di Milano, and Vittorio Sgaramella, professor of molecular biology at the University of Calabria. [Prof. Rita Levi Montalcini is 95]. It is just a case of "passion at a distance" (Abner Shimony), between the Vatican City and the Ministry. From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Mon Sep 6 08:51:59 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:51:59 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Amara Graps wrote: > >Not only education. Her complete title is "Minister for Education, >and Universities and Scientific Research". > >http://www.governo.it/Governo/Biografie/moratti_letizia_eng.html > >>From what I've observed at my work, she is loathed in the scientific >research areas as well. How did a person who has absolutely no >experience in science and research earn that position of Minister? >It makes me very depressed about Italy. Government misters in Italy are choosen for their political connections, not because they are experts on the subject, nor because they are good administrators. A recurrent exception is the minister for health care, who is frequently an ex-doctor. Most people realize that the situation is bad, but have a fatalistic (?) attitude and think they can do nothing about it. In the US such people would stop voting. In Italy they just continue to vote for the same party they have voted for in the previous elections... so voting percentages are high, but hardly anything changes. Alfio From scerir at libero.it Mon Sep 6 09:46:26 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:46:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <001001c488e8$cefe77b0$3cba1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <001501c493f6$60f73c70$24b61b97@administxl09yj> From: "scerir" > Supposed Italian targets are: Assisi (town of San > Francesco), Perugia (international university), Vatican > City, Rome (the Colosseo!), Milan (the Duomo of -), > Berlusconi's (prime minister) villas in Sardinia, > Florence (museums), Venice (perhaps). That sort > of places. > If - as services say - these are the targets, > in Italy, now, it means that they (wish to) attack > "symbols", "icons", not people. Wrong. They attack all "values". And "life" is among them. How can we explain bombing in Spain, kids killed in Russia? s. "Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, wrote in his daily column published in the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!" From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Mon Sep 6 14:48:28 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:48:28 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] self-assembling 3d nanostructures Message-ID: Just found these articles linked on Slashdot. Don't know if they are old news, or only minor things, anyway the links are: http://www.triangletechjournal.com/news/article.html?item_id=666 http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/09/06.html Alfio From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:25:57 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:25:57 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra invites? How about sending them to the troops? http://www.gmailforthetroops.com On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:16:16 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > I've got more too (feel free to ask!). I think it's safe to say that > nowadays, if you want an invite you can get one. > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > > > -s > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > > would like one. > > > > > > - Jef From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:35:09 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:05:09 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040906233519955738@mail.gmail.com> Personally, I was thinking of writing some software to use a gmail account as an offsite backup. My thinking was along the lines of using POP3 and SMTP to communicate, using something like "Pop goes the gmail" to get pop access to the account (SMTP too? there must be a way), and writing a nice gui thing to sit on top and do hotsyncing with a local folder, similar to PDA hotsyncing. After all, these accounts are 1gb (each), and they are backed up by google. Does something like that interest anyone? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:25:57 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail > account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra > invites? How about sending them to the troops? > > http://www.gmailforthetroops.com > > > > > On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:16:16 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > I've got more too (feel free to ask!). I think it's safe to say that > > nowadays, if you want an invite you can get one. > > > > -- > > Emlyn > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > > > > > -s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > > > would like one. > > > > > > > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 7 06:44:43 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:44:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Intolerance Against Intolerance Message-ID: <001101c494a6$2966ee30$6600a8c0@brainiac> Natalie Angier is one of the few journalists I've read who has had the courage to question why matters regarding "faith" are usually presented so positively in the press (strangely, the other few are mostly all women, as well - a couple of exceptions are Richard Dawkins and Gore Vidal, but their essays tend not to appear in the dailies). In today's NY Times Angier reviews a book entitled "The End of Faith" ('"Harris reserves particular ire for religious moderates, those who 'have taken the apparent high road of pluralism, asserting the equal validity of all faiths' and who 'imagine that the path to peace will be paved once each of us has learned to respect the unjustified beliefs of others.' Religious moderates, he argues, are the ones who thwart all efforts to criticize religious literalism. By preaching tolerance, they become intolerant of any rational discussion of religion and 'betray faith and reason equally.'"): http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/books/review/05ANGIERL.html IMO we need more such discussions in the media. If anything, it seems as if criticism of religiosity has diminished in recent years. Olga From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 07:08:21 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:38:21 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <062101c4937d$cf368bb0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <062101c4937d$cf368bb0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc04090700083cf98dee@mail.gmail.com> Something like one of these - it's a GSM terminal, basically a little computer with a phone, and I/O ports. http://www.ericsson.com/mobilityworld/developerszonedown/downloads/docs/m2m/gt47_gt48r1a.pdf plus battery backup and an attached webcam (hopefully that could be attached through the rj12 port, or maybe you're stuck with the com port). It'd be a few hundred bucks, but it's small (about 2''x3''x1''). I've got one here on my desk, cool little device! 44K for code plus approx 20K ram. If someone chose to provide this as a commercial service, you could allow people to set these things up inside a private network (must be in conjunction with a telco), and make them addressable from the outside via a webservice, or even specific setups through a central website. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:23:19 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Amara Graps > > Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances > > > > > > Spike: > > >Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam > > >in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house... > > > > > I wonder where was your home, Spike, because mine had no electricity > > for about 24 hours during the '89 earthquake. I (and my neighbors) > > were in the middle of suburban Cupertino. Makes it difficult to set > > up a web cam, no? > > Oops you are right. I was without power for almost a day. > We would hafta set these things to run on battery power for > a while. > > > Minor damage, I agree, yes, but I was cleaning up the glass in my > > kitchen for days, and I lost a few irreplaceable pieces in the > > living room when the bookcases bounced a few feet, and my Mac Plus, > > when it fell over, displayed the cracks in the case for the rest of > > its life. > > Ja me too. My bookselves fell over on top of my two-week > new MacSE30. Didn't damage the machine, but scuffed the > case. I'll tell you, that machine was such a beauty: > Motorola 68030 processor, screaming along at an unimaginable > 8 megaHertz, memory upgraded to a full MEGABYTE of RAM (oh > my goodness) and a 40 Mb hard disk! Paid more for that machine > than a new subcompact car, but ooohhh boy, was I ever in > the big leagues. The Vic20 I had been using was a joke > in comparison to that. Of course the Vic20 was a joke > compared to anything, but still. > > I see your point: we would need battery power > to set up a random damage assessment system. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From eugen at leitl.org Tue Sep 7 08:30:33 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:30:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040906233519955738@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040906233519955738@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040907083033.GO1457@leitl.org> On Tue, Sep 07, 2004 at 04:05:09PM +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Personally, I was thinking of writing some software to use a gmail > account as an offsite backup. My thinking was along the lines of using http://www.google.com/gmail/help/terms_of_use.html > POP3 and SMTP to communicate, using something like "Pop goes the > gmail" to get pop access to the account (SMTP too? there must be a > way), and writing a nice gui thing to sit on top and do hotsyncing > with a local folder, similar to PDA hotsyncing. After all, these > accounts are 1gb (each), and they are backed up by google. http://richard.jones.name/google-hacks/gmail-filesystem/gmail-filesystem.html > Does something like that interest anyone? Not really. Colo and vservers are dropping in price like lead baloons. Just use a WebDAV share like .mac or sftp. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Sep 7 08:32:15 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:32:15 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> On Mon, Sep 06, 2004 at 11:25:57PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail > account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra I believe you misspelled nationalist. > invites? How about sending them to the troops? Invading Iraq. Pretty extropic, eh. > http://www.gmailforthetroops.com -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Sep 6 10:42:17 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:42:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians Message-ID: Alfio wrote: >Government misters in Italy are choosen for their political connections, >not because they are experts on the subject, nor because they are good >administrators. A recurrent exception is the minister for health care, >who is frequently an ex-doctor. >Most people realize that the situation is bad, but have a fatalistic (?) >attitude and think they can do nothing about it. In the US such people >would stop voting. In Italy they just continue to vote for the same party >they have voted for in the previous elections... so voting percentages are >high, but hardly anything changes. Science seems to politicized in many ways in Italy, I'm discovering. When Berlusconi came into office, he appointed a new head of Italian Space Agency. I don't know if it is typical to have years of problems for transitions between political terms, but it happened in this case. The new director didn't follow or read the years of existing work already performed before his term, so scientists spent huge amounts of time justifying their existence when he began. No planetary science contracts were signed by ASI for a year or two, which had a large impact on existing space projects, plus new opportunities were missed, plus some number of people didn't get paid. Even after the initial 'years transition period, major contracts between them and other space agencies still were signed months late. They ask for detailed reports on every aspect of the planetary science work in order to have funding, people run around like nervous bees preparing the reports, then the reports don't get read and there's no funding anyway. On one of my projects, which is a NASA mission, if JPL engineers need to talk to the builders of our Italian instrument, then an ASI manager must be present. There is no money to buy computers. A printer might be down for a month because toner cartridge orders take that long to find the money and order. Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in August to save money too. [This means no electricity to the running computers, including the computers holding web pages for conference registrations like the one that I was obligated to depend on as local organizing committee for next month's Cassini workshop. So then I spent the next week writing email apologizing to the participants for not being able to keep a simple http server running on a PC. Why would they want to go to a conference if the organizers cannot even do that?, they probably wondered.] My job department secretaries were complaining that I don't speak italian fluently yet, but when is there time for me to study? My salary doesn't cover basic living expenses, so I must work at a second job. I could study between my two jobs between 2am and 7am, but I really need to sleep then. So I think that it is a miracle that science in Italy is accomplished at all, and what I've seen so far is truly excellent science, which is even more amazing to me. I think that what I've described above is normal in Italy. Some politicians make sweeping statements and laws, some number of things change, but underneath, there is absolutely no resources to support the changes, and people turn into stress-monkeys trying to do the impossible. Alfio, I'll make a deal with you. I have not met any Italians yet that approve of the Bush Administration: people here seem to be universally negative about that government, and Bush's policies affect my life in large ways here, as well. Since I cannot vote in Italian elections, but I can vote (and I am registered this time) in US elections, then please, do your best to vote Berlusconi out of office, and I will do my best to vote Bush out of office. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 7 14:41:29 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:41:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040907073621.031a1670@mail.earthlink.net> >See Bruce Sterling being curmudgeonly on singularity (again) at >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/view.html?pg=4 I hope the Institute for Accelerating Change did not boast about this because. These types of statements take away credibility. There have been many futurist conferences intentionally covering multidisciplinary implications of accelerated change. "The 2003 confab was billed as "the first in the world to focus on the multidisciplinary implications of accelerating change and the multidisciplinary implications of accelerating change and the consequences of a technological singularity." What is a technological singularity? A moment when runaway ad-vances outstrip human comprehension and all our knowledge and experience becomes useless as a guidepost to the future." Bruce Natasha From amara at amara.com Mon Sep 6 14:17:11 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:17:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neofiles: Hughes and Gilmore Message-ID: I suppose you know about RU Sirius' Neofiles? Max More was interviewed last month. This month you'll find stories on James Hughes and John Gilmore (EFF, Cypherpunks, etc.). We are all familiar with James Hughes and his perspectives, for me this issue is an extra treat to hear more about Gilmore's adventures. http://www.life-enhancement.com/NeoFiles/default.asp?ID=47 Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The real malady is fear of life, not of death." -- Naguib Mahfouz From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 13:17:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040907131757.23233.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as > a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in August > to save money too. OMFG it sounds like something straight out of Snow Crash. Amara, perhaps you ought to circulate an italian translation of that "TP Pooling" memo that YT's mom had to read in the novel??? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Tue Sep 7 13:48:41 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:48:41 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Amara Graps wrote: >present. There is no money to buy computers. A printer might be down >for a month because toner cartridge orders take that long to find the >money and order. Red tape slowing everything down is common >Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as >a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in August >to save money too. > >[This means no electricity to the running computers, including the >computers holding web pages for conference registrations like the one >that I was obligated to depend on as local organizing committee for >next month's Cassini workshop. That sounds unbelievable to me. Even if cost savings are everywhere, I never saw missing toiled paper (!!) or computers shut off to save on electricity. If the situation is so bad in Rome, I can only guess what must be in Naples or such (as you may have noticed, most things in Italy change relative to the Y axis - the latitude coordinate). >Alfio, I'll make a deal with you. I have not met any Italians yet that >approve of the Bush Administration: people here seem to be universally >negative about that government, and Bush's policies affect my life in >large ways here, as well. Since I cannot vote in Italian elections, >but I can vote (and I am registered this time) in US elections, then >please, do your best to vote Berlusconi out of office, and I will do >my best to vote Bush out of office. I already did my part at the last elections, but it wasn't enough :-( What's bad is that the next election is still two years away, so the huge malcontent for the government regarding the Iraq war will be a bit forgotten. Alfio From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 13:51:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: <20040907131757.23233.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040907135130.67374.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Amara Graps wrote: > > Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as > > a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in > August > > to save money too. > > OMFG it sounds like something straight out of Snow Crash. Amara, > perhaps you ought to circulate an italian translation of that "TP > Pooling" memo that YT's mom had to read in the novel??? Grover Norquist once said, "I don't want to eliminate government, I just want to shrink it down small enough that I can drag it into the bathroom and strangle it in the tub." ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 15:04:30 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:04:30 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c52040907080410dedf6a@mail.gmail.com> Looks like a win-win deal. G. On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:42:17 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > Alfio, I'll make a deal with you. I have not met any Italians yet that > approve of the Bush Administration: people here seem to be universally > negative about that government, and Bush's policies affect my life in > large ways here, as well. Since I cannot vote in Italian elections, > but I can vote (and I am registered this time) in US elections, then > please, do your best to vote Berlusconi out of office, and I will do > my best to vote Bush out of office. > > Amara From starman2100 at cableone.net Tue Sep 7 15:15:03 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:15:03 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fab labs a harbinger of things to come Message-ID: <1094570103_22698@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From starman2100 at cableone.net Tue Sep 7 15:28:19 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:28:19 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fab labs a harbinger of things to come Message-ID: <1094570899_22966@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 16:04:43 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:04:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neofiles: Hughes and Gilmore Message-ID: <180150-2200492716443975@M2W068.mail2web.com> Amara wrote: >http://www.life-enhancement.com/NeoFiles/default.asp?ID=47 I remember R.U. back in the 1980s and early 1990s, and I remember living in Southern California with other transhumanists, but I do not remember the white-male supremacy and anarchists. I think that the techno-libertarian anarchists were in Northern California -in Silicon Valley and San Francisco. They did trickle down to Southern California, but we had so many spiritualists there that Northern California didn't want to get too close to us :-) Regardless, let's be appreciative of early transhumanists who were radical and brilliant enough to go against the grain. They are a benefit to all who know them and respect their contributions to transhumanity. I toast Eric Drexler for being there! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 20:42:54 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:42:54 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? Message-ID: <2610-22004927204254990@M2W089.mail2web.com> I'm quoting one of my professors: "Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean, predicted (on 'Charlie Rose' last week) that he is sure that an Internet-based third party will emerge before 2008 with money comparable to what the two established parties can raise. (It's supposedly in his book _The Revolution will be Televised_.)" Anyone see the "Charlie Rose" interview, or read Trippi's book? Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 22:30:30 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:30:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <7a3217050409071530390646fb@mail.gmail.com> Listen, I wasn't trying to start any political tyrade or anything. Personally I was also against going to war in Iraq. Your post would make some sense if I had suggested sending an invite to dubya, but I didn't. The majority of US troops abroad would rather not be there. They're doing their duty to "God and country" in exchange for pay, education and work experience. I don't begrudge them. If you do, that's your prerogative. You can send your invite to Saddam. Zero On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:32:15 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Mon, Sep 06, 2004 at 11:25:57PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > > > OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail > > account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra > > I believe you misspelled nationalist. > > > invites? How about sending them to the troops? > > Invading Iraq. Pretty extropic, eh. > > > http://www.gmailforthetroops.com > > > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > > > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 23:57:16 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:27:16 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409071530390646fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> <7a3217050409071530390646fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409071657ed56f2b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:30:30 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Listen, I wasn't trying to start any political tyrade or anything. > Personally I was also against going to war in Iraq. Your post would > make some sense if I had suggested sending an invite to dubya, but I > didn't. > > The majority of US troops abroad would rather not be there. They're > doing their duty to "God and country" in exchange for pay, education > and work experience. I don't begrudge them. If you do, that's your > prerogative. You can send your invite to Saddam. > > Zero > I'm pretty sure they don't give the old guy computer access :-) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 03:57:27 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? In-Reply-To: <2610-22004927204254990@M2W089.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040908035727.67746.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > I'm quoting one of my professors: > > "Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean, > predicted (on 'Charlie Rose' > last week) that he is sure that an Internet-based > third party will emerge > before 2008 with money comparable to what the two > established parties can > raise. (It's supposedly in his book _The Revolution > will be Televised_.)" > > Anyone see the "Charlie Rose" interview, or read > Trippi's book? > > Natasha > > IMHO That is very optimistic. I would agree with him if it it weren't for the fact that both the Republicans and the Democrats have already saturated the Internet with their tripe. Moreover it seems to me based on Howard Dean's example (I liked him and still do) that no matter how popular or how much Internet presence a candidate has, if the mainstream media (controlled by FOX, CBS, NBC aka Microsoft, ABC aka Disney, CNN aka AOL-Time-Warner) chooses to torpedo the candidate then they are screwed. Internet based or not, the only hope I foresee for a third party in the United States right now, other than the miraculous enlightenment of the masses, is a coalition of all existing third parties. That is to say that if the Independants, the Libertarians, the Greens, the Freedom, the Communists, the Constitution Party, and every other party that may have slipped my mind gets together and forms an uber-coalition party, then there might be a political entity capable of ousting the GOP and Dems. Unfortunately considering the wide range of platforms espoused by all these parties, such a coalition would probabably become a watered down sorry excuse of a compromise just like the current two parties. Lets face it, game theory has mathematically shown that in a two party system, it behooves both parties to fight against the credibility of any third party tooth and nail, because both parties covet the middle ground and can't stomach some third party getting the moderate and undecided votes. In a two party system, the best strategy is to try to be as moderate as possible. (which is why all recent elections have been like choosing between Coke or Pepsi). If there was a viable third party then both existing parties would be forced farther toward their respective polarities and their best strategy then would be to be far left or far right and hope. Therefore, so long as mass media is more prevalent than the Internet and that mass media is controlled by Rupert Murdoch and his ilk, you will have great candidates like Howard Dean have their character assassinated for being decisive and passionate enough to scream during a speech. And you will have not so great candidates like Kerry first propped up and then, in the final hour, criticised for being bland and indecisive. All so they can get a souless corporate tool back into office, to truly ensure the longterm rule of the overclass. The moral of the story: The Internet is wonderful but the average American still thinks that TV is the voice of God. Since all 1000 channels are owned by 5 companies, you have a situation where five men control consentual reality for the masses. Therefore you are screwed, unless of course you are Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch, Michael Eisner, etc. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 04:08:23 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:08:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroytheremainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <054201c4917d$befbf7a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06bf01c49559$7f6ec3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> I wrote: > I love any good competition, so here it goes: the height of > technology vs the fury of nature. Wooohoooo, may the best > one win! {8-] spike > > ps Im betting on the building in this case... Doh! }8-[ {8^D See that, you guys shoulda taken me up on my friendly wager for 90 imaginary cents: Frances rolls into Florida Panhandle as rest of state begins recovery from storm's initial strike ... Hurricane Frances did more damage to the Kennedy Space Center than any storm in history, tearing an estimated 1,000 exterior panels from a giant building where spaceships are assembled. No space shuttles were inside the building, but center director James Kennedy said he feared the damage could set back NASA's effort to resume shuttle launches next spring... --- EDITOR'S NOTE - Associated Press writers Allen G. Breed in Fort Pierce, Jill Barton in West Palm Beach, Vickie Chachere in Tampa, Brent Kallestad in Tallahassee, Mike Schneider in Orlando and Ron Word in Daytona Beach also contributed to this report. From starman2100 at cableone.net Wed Sep 8 05:01:54 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:01:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Female sexuality, future of Message-ID: <1094619714_41738@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 05:36:24 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:36:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06bf01c49559$7f6ec3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> I was cutting up with some guys at lunch today. A question occurred to me: why is it that when someone does or says something funny, people start to laugh, then something must happen in our brains to adjust something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at that joke indefinitely. Sometimes some event is so funny we cannot stop laughing for some time, but after a period of time we always do stop. Good thing, eh? But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us to stop laughing? spike From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 05:59:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:59:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The promise of personalized medicine Message-ID: EurekAlert: A new technology developed by scientists at IBM could bring the promise of personalized medicine one step closer to reality. Using a basic computer language, the researchers created a "smart" DNA stream that contains a patient's entire medical record, according to a report in the upcoming Oct. 11 print edition of the Journal of Proteome Research, a peer-reviewed journal of the American Chemical Society, the world's largest scientific society. The report was published online July 22. With the advent of the genomic revolution, scientists are avidly seeking correlations between human disease and the architecture of individual genes. Parsing this huge amount of data could eventually lead to "personalized medicine," some researchers say, allowing doctors to prescribe the right drug at the right dose for the right person, based on unique variations in their DNA. But to achieve this potential, scientists need a way to store and efficiently transmit whole sequences of patient DNA with built-in privacy -- a hurdle that has yet to be overcome, according to the authors. Enter IBM's Genomic Messaging System (GMS). GMS provides a basic computer language that can be inserted into DNA sequences to bridge the gap between patient medical records and genetic information, says lead author of the paper, Barry Robson, Ph.D., a chemist at IBM's T. J. Watson Research Center in Yorktown Heights, N.Y. The stream of information transmitted is basically a "smart" DNA sequence containing a patient's entire medical record in compressed form as well as genetic information. The DNA stream could potentially even house images like MRIs and X-rays. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-09/acs-po090704.php --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Sep 8 06:12:53 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:12:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (TLCB) After-action report from 7 miles inland of Kennedy Space Center. Message-ID: <413EA2E5.60A91DF5@mindspring.com> 1900 hrs After-action report from 7 miles inland of Kennedy Space Center. Frances is now gone. I've been through several before, but never saw one last this long. We had significant wind from early Saturday evening, that continued till Sunday evening. Still had some rain, and lessor winds into yesterday afternoon. It was actually this afternoon before the winds were completely gone. I, and some of my neighbors, were out in it early Sunday trying to get some trees off a car and a house. One oak started coming apart as we were working on it - little hauling ass involved there! Frances was definitely a thrill ride. I lost power about 1400 hrs on Saturday, just got it back 1000 this morning. Been living on the generator in the interim. Life takes on a new meaning when your biggest concern is if (and where) you can get enough gas to keep the generator running! No damage to the house, but I have four real tall palms down in my back yard, which I've spent two days cutting up. Each one is/was 30+ feet tall. Add them to the two I had just finished cutting up from Charlie, and my back yard looks like a logging operation. Kennedy Space Center got its ass kicked. My next door neighbor works in some physical security capacity out there (not sure what exactly - kind of secret) and got home this morning. He was in the Vehicle Assembly Building (VAB) and says it got beat up pretty good. For those of you who have been to KSC you know which building that is. For those who've just seen it in movies or TV, it's the humungous building in which they stand the shuttle upright to attach it to the solid rocket booster (SRB). (It's so large it has its own atmosphere inside. If the air conditioning goes off for too long in humid whether, it will actually form a cloud and rain inside the building.) Some of the electronics facilities inside the VAB got inundated with rain, when parts of the walls blew out. He said it was really creepy inside, listening to the metal torqueing, and groaning - with no lights. Unknown yet if the shuttle or SRB were damaged. A couple other buildings got it bad as well. On new one lost it's roof, and all three stories full of communications equipment were totally soaked. This county is nearly 80 miles long, and down in the south part - where brother Charlie Logue lives - it was worse than we got. They were just north of land fall. Here's hoping Charlie came through it. As for you guys in the center of the State, and on the West Coast. How are things over there? Gary Beatty Medic - NKP (73-74) -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 8 06:19:07 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:19:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Davies' freedom References: <180150-2200492716443975@M2W068.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <001101c4956b$bf665310$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> Paul Davies freely speculates about free will. Two types of 'freedom' are described. One it is supernatural and one natural. http://www.naturalism.org/davies.htm "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." - W. Pauli (In a very long paper Asher Peres studied, also giving mathematical details, the possible connection between free will and QM, and especially between free will and quantum entanglements. It turned out that QM and quantum entanglements cannot forbid free will. Unless there is, as Peres and Zurek say in another paper, a super-determinism, as John Bell called it, i.e. a deterministic universal simulation. Since there are political, social, ideological, psychological entanglements that are non-quantal, and since there are also macro physical systems violating Bell's inequalities, well I'm not sure about my own freedom!) From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 06:23:47 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:23:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06d601c4956c$663d8190$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Spike: > > ...people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely... ...Which would presumably be a fatal condition. The indefinite-laugher would be rendered unable to eat. She might attempt to do so, but the partially-masticated viands would spew from her nose (the way milk used to do when you were in the elementary school lunch room and everything was funny back then. Later in high school only things that were somehow related to sex were funny.) The sight of the jolly victim's nose spewing food would be so hilarious that the rest of the tribe might be taken out in a gleeful, even if painful, demise. Perhaps the stop-laughing mechanism evolved as a survival of the soberest thing. Did you laugh just now? What caused you stop? What is *different* in your brain now compared to half a minute ago? Why don't humans die laughing? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 06:38:26 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:38:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06d601c4956c$663d8190$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06d701c4956e$720b4960$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Spike: > > Did you laugh just now? What caused you stop? What is > *different* in your brain now compared to half a minute ago? > Why don't humans die laughing?... spike ...And if we figure out what causes us to stop laughing, we should eventually be able to adjust that. We have all known people that were too sober or too silly. Or both. We could crank up the giggle-governor when it is time to work, then turn it back down when our buddies come over to view Monte Python videos. As we get closer to uploading, we will surely start to stumble upon stuff like this: odd mechanisms that have evolved in our brains that do things that we don't even vaguely understand, and don't know how to code, or can't get to work right. The first uploads might be rendered helpless because no one wrote the subroutine that allow them to recover from the first good joke they get in the email. spike From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 8 06:48:30 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:48:30 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <002d01c4956f$daba7de0$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > spike Laughing is, perhaps, controlled in a different part of our brain, so when other places in our brain go to sleep, the laughing center takes over. And viceversa. Ok this does not explain anything! s. In 1840 a dentist named Horace Wells had the idea that, with the recently discovered "exhilarating or laughing gas", teeth might be extracted without pain. Under its influence he had one of his own teeth pulled in 1844 and afterwards frequently used it in his practice. Before a class at the Massachusetts General Hospital, Wells gave a demonstration with a patient. Things did not go too well. The patient suffered great pain. Wells became depressed, addicted (to chloroform, another anesthetic agent) and in 1848 committed suicide. More at: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/nitrous_two/ From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Sep 8 07:21:14 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:21:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06d601c4956c$663d8190$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <002001c49574$6ca23050$1db71218@Nano> Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public, when you are supposed to control yourself. The joke comes and goes, and I can not stop laughing. I'm talking water in the eyes, bending over and the whole, "now I'm laughing because I am laughing" phase. I will even continue to crack internal jokes after the initial joke, in my head. I notice I do it more in situations where I should be more reserved and well behaved, it may just be the rebel in me, sort of like when mom would drag me to church and I would think dirty thoughts just because it's taboo.........but I am a natural clown, among other things. g` > ...people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Sep 8 07:22:43 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:22:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <002d01c4956f$daba7de0$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <002b01c49574$a4c5fc00$1db71218@Nano> http://people.howstuffworks.com/laughter.htm/printable Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: scerir To: ExI chat list Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > spike Laughing is, perhaps, controlled in a different part of our brain, so when other places in our brain go to sleep, the laughing center takes over. And viceversa. Ok this does not explain anything! s. In 1840 a dentist named Horace Wells had the idea that, with the recently discovered "exhilarating or laughing gas", teeth might be extracted without pain. Under its influence he had one of his own teeth pulled in 1844 and afterwards frequently used it in his practice. Before a class at the Massachusetts General Hospital, Wells gave a demonstration with a patient. Things did not go too well. The patient suffered great pain. Wells became depressed, addicted (to chloroform, another anesthetic agent) and in 1848 committed suicide. More at: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/nitrous_two/ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 8 11:06:54 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:06:54 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040812073837.GK1477@leitl.org> <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:48:55AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Who's going to build the microwave > > stations on the ground to > > track the craft as it goes around the Earth? > > I generally agree with most of your objections here, > but this one can easily be solved: solar panels (or > cells on the craft's skin), or a fleet of microwave > satellites launched by traditional means. We're trying to lower cost for LEO launch. Putting massive power satellite fleets up there doesn't strike me as "easily solved". > > The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as > > SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. > > *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own > right. If they can solve the engineering issues of > floating serious payload at high altitudes...floating > cities, anyone? What is the economic value of a floating city? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 8 11:45:31 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:45:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> References: <20040812073837.GK1477@leitl.org> <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <413EF0DB.7080003@mail.tele.dk> Eugen Leitl wrote: >What is the economic value of a floating city? > > Space in itself opens up for easier access to the raw materials and expansion room in space. SO from that POW space cities are a good idea. The "eggs in one basket" is also an argument. The problem is that those paying are not the same as those that will reap the eventual benefits. Most likely space will be inhabited by robots instead. They won't need as much support. While I can see why I would pay to live in southern France, I don't really see many benefits to relocating the family to a tin can in space. It's far to hostile. Sending out Robots that can send back enough data to build accurate 3D VR copies that I can enjoy at home, is much more reasonable. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From Steve365 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 8 12:01:46 2004 From: Steve365 at btinternet.com (Steve Davies) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:01:46 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <003b01c4959b$9df93140$c2ea8351@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:36 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? > > I was cutting up with some guys at lunch today. A > question occurred to me: why is it that when someone > does or says something funny, people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely. Sometimes some event is so > funny we cannot stop laughing for some time, but after > a period of time we always do stop. Good thing, eh? > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > > spike I think there must be some chemical feedback mechanism in the brain. Magic mushrooms clearly interfere with this because their main effect is to make you find everything hilarious and laugh nonstop for hours - I can vouch for this. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 12:33:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 05:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? In-Reply-To: <20040908035727.67746.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040908123319.87505.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > > Moreover it seems to me > based on Howard Dean's example (I liked him and still > do) Howard Dean ran the Vermont state budget up so high so fast that the property taxes of people I know there went from $3,000 per year to $13,000/yr in three years. Dean is the reason why one town has already seceded from the state, and a dozen more are going to vote on secession this coming March. Vermont is now one of the higest tax states in the union. Dean was no different than Michael Dukakis: they both governed states based upon chimerical economic principles which started collapsing as soon as they left office. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 12:41:28 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 05:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040908124128.38574.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> endorphin levels vs receptor availability.... --- Spike wrote: > > I was cutting up with some guys at lunch today. A > question occurred to me: why is it that when someone > does or says something funny, people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely. Sometimes some event is so > funny we cannot stop laughing for some time, but after > a period of time we always do stop. Good thing, eh? > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 12:56:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 05:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040908125630.89968.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:48:55AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > Who's going to build the microwave > > > stations on the ground to > > > track the craft as it goes around the Earth? > > Whoever develops the technology of course. Whether they can get lease and flyover rights from every paranoid nation on the planet is another story entirely... > > > > The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as > > > SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. > > > > *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own > > right. If they can solve the engineering issues of > > floating serious payload at high altitudes...floating > > cities, anyone? > > What is the economic value of a floating city? Earth observation, communications, military high ground. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 13:00:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 06:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The promise of personalized medicine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040908130015.9196.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > EurekAlert: A new technology developed by scientists at IBM could > bring the > promise of personalized medicine one step closer to reality. Its already closer to reality, at least in the nutritional field. http://www.mycellf.com This company profiles your DNA to create custom nutritional supplement plans for you as an individual. A friend of mine is one of their distributors. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 13:26:56 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:56:56 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:51:25 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:27 PM 9/3/2004 -0400, Bret wrote: > > >Interview in Wired with Craig Newmark, of Craigslist. > >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/craigslist.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 > > See Bruce Sterling being curmudgeonly on singularity (again) at > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/view.html?pg=4 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > "Sure, computers might someday awaken into something resembling human consciousness, but we have no metrics to describe that awakening and thus no objective way to recognize it if it happens. How would you test a claim like that?" uh, when your PC evolves into pure energy and eats your grandma, maybe something is up... "Vinge put it this way: "For me, the superhumanity is the essence of the Singularity. Without that, we would get a glut of tech-nical riches, never properly absorbed." Remove the magic threat of artificial intelligence from Vinge's prognostication, and you get a brilliant description of the present day: a glut of technical riches, never properly absorbed. Instead of spiritual supercomputers for brains, we've got a spam-choked Internet." yes, the internet is sooooo 1999. Hardly. "The singularity's biggest flaw isn't that it's hard to imagine, but that it flatters its human inventors. We may be on the verge of an astounding breakthrough! Or, with equal likelihood, we may be at the edge of a new dark age of plagues, mass hunger, and climate destabilization. More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of progress and no sense of direction. " Where is this guy living, camp xray? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 14:31:38 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:31:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <002001c49574$6ca23050$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <070101c495b0$8d18ec20$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Gina Miller: Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public, when you are supposed to control yourself...g Me too Gina. Thats what made me think of it: I was consistently the last one to settle down. Consequently also the last one to finish eating lunch. s {8^D <--- see look at me, Im *still* acting silly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 15:07:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:07:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <002001c49574$6ca23050$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public,...sort of like when mom would drag me to church and I would think dirty thoughts just because it's taboo.........but I am a natural clown, among other things. g For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local house of ill repute. Your mileage may vary. {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Sep 8 16:17:06 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:17:06 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: CNN Breaking News Message-ID: <86FA73DA-01B2-11D9-84D0-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Begin forwarded message: > From: CNN Breaking News > Date: 8 September 2004 18:03:08 GMT+02:00 > To: TEXTBREAKINGNEWS at CNNIMAIL12.CNN.COM > Subject: CNN Breaking News > Reply-To: newseditor at MAIL.CNN.COM > > -- Genesis spacecraft down in Utah desert, chutes failed to open. > > Watch CNN or log on to http://CNN.com for the latest news. > More Americans watch CNN. More Americans trust CNN. > > ******************************************************************** > Watch Anderson Cooper 360 weeknights 7 p.m. ET only on CNN. > See what's on tonight: http://www.CNN.com/andersoncooper360 > ******************************************************************** > > To unsubscribe from CNN.com's Breaking News E-Mail Alert, log on to: > http://CNN.com/EMAIL/breakingnews.html > > To sign up for additional e-mail products, go to http://CNN.com/EMAIL > > (c)2004. Cable News Network, LP, LLLP. > A Time Warner Company. > All Rights Reserved. > > > > > CNN Interactive email id:150791203062628640 > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 16:29:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > > "Vinge put it this way: "For me, the superhumanity is the essence of > the Singularity. Without that, we would get a glut of tech-nical > riches, never properly absorbed." Remove the magic threat of > artificial intelligence from Vinge's prognostication, and you get a > brilliant description of the present day: a glut of technical riches, > never properly absorbed. Instead of spiritual supercomputers for > brains, we've got a spam-choked Internet." > > yes, the internet is sooooo 1999. Hardly. Yeah. While he has a point that a lot of our exponents are being wasted on non-productive activity like spam, viruses/worms, bloatware, etc. there are still plenty of areas of advancement. My new cellular Treo 600 smartphone runs a processor many times more powerful than my first desktop PC (that was a TI-99), has 8 times more memory than my first office PC (386/4MRAM) had (with four times more expandability, and there is far more software available for its Palm5 OS than was available for my Windows 3.1 / 386mhz system in 1992. Beyond that the Treo fits in my shirt pocket, and was of indispensable use in the past week, as I was left flying the company solo up here. I'm not concerned about old operating systems dying off from bloat. New ones like Palm, QNX, and others will always crop up to supplant them. (I'm predicting that Palm will be the Microsoft of this decade). I'm incredibly happy with this little tool, and am looking forward to the day when I can have its decendant embedded in my brain, which I'm now predicting will happen within this decade. > > "The singularity's biggest flaw isn't that it's hard to imagine, but > that it flatters its human inventors. We may be on the verge of an > astounding breakthrough! Or, with equal likelihood, we may be at the > edge of a new dark age of plagues, mass hunger, and climate > destabilization. More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > progress and no sense of direction. " > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 8 16:45:56 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040908164556.81681.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:48:55AM -0700, Adrian > Tymes wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > Who's going to build the microwave > > > stations on the ground to > > > track the craft as it goes around the Earth? > > > > I generally agree with most of your objections > here, > > but this one can easily be solved: solar panels > (or > > cells on the craft's skin), or a fleet of > microwave > > satellites launched by traditional means. > > We're trying to lower cost for LEO launch. Putting > massive > power satellite fleets up there doesn't strike me as > "easily solved". The powersats could be put to other uses. If they could make a profit on their own, they could be done independent of anything else. Bootstrapping, as it were. That said, you're right: direct solar power is probably easier. > > > The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as > > > SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. > > > > *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own > > right. If they can solve the engineering issues > of > > floating serious payload at high > altitudes...floating > > cities, anyone? > > What is the economic value of a floating city? Massive air cargo lifter, similar to zepplins but floating high enough that weather is not as much of a problem (except for launching/landing of transfer craft). Or a waypoint towards true space colonization. The view would certainly be unmatched; one could set up a high-altitude hotel that a simple up-and-down rocket like SSO could reach without having to actually reach orbital velocity. And, of course, there are various communication applications. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 8 16:51:17 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:51:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > > >More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > > >squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > > >progress and no sense of direction. " > > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? > >Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a very tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi gigaflops. Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, the future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever going to happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, boo hoo): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCIFI08/TPEntertainment/ Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 17:26:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040908172636.81378.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > > > >More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > > > >squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > > > >progress and no sense of direction. " > > > > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? > > > >Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. > > Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a > very > tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi > gigaflops. > Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, > the > future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever > going to > happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, > boo hoo): > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCIFI08/TPEntertainment/ > Vinge himself has said in the past that other factors could temper or set back the exponential curve. In his fictional treatment in the Peace War, it was a global bio/nuke/chem/bobble war waged by the Peace Authority on governments, and use of the 'bobble' technology thereafter to restrain technological advancement. Today, we have global reactionary elements of various sorts: a) christian conservatives b) islamist fundamentalist/nationalist terrorists c) Green luddites Smart realpolitik will pitch these elements against each other, as is currently happening between a and b. C is being marginally impacted by a's statutory controls on b but is gaining credibility via an agitprop campaign against those controls among the lumpenproles. The common theme among all three groups is a deep distrust in the human individual to act responsibly with technology of any kind (even culture). ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 8 17:33:46 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:33:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908123307.01b1b7b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6182701 PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule returning solar particles to Earth after a three-year mission that probed the origins of the solar system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be captured in a mid-air recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory said on Wednesday. From hemm at openlink.com.br Wed Sep 8 18:00:18 2004 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:00:18 -0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908123307.01b1b7b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <01fe01c495cd$b34eb290$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Which proves what a good idea it was to try and catch it in mid-air instead of a simple parachute. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes | http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6182701 | | | PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule returning solar particles to | Earth after a three-year mission that probed the origins of the solar | system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be captured in a mid-air | recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory said on Wednesday. | | | _______________________________________________ | extropy-chat mailing list | extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org | http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat | From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 18:25:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes In-Reply-To: <01fe01c495cd$b34eb290$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: <20040908182519.58712.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Uh, it HAD a parachute, which did not open, which is why it did not get recovered. The point of the air recovery was to spare any impact shock which would even occur if the chute opened. The other point of it was that it is far easier to recover it in mid air than to search the vast wilderness on the ground for it... --- Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > Which proves what a good idea it was to try and catch it in mid-air > instead of a simple parachute. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damien Broderick" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:33 PM > Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes > > > | > http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6182701 > | > | > | PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule returning solar > particles to > | Earth after a three-year mission that probed the origins of the > solar > | system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be captured in a > mid-air > | recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory said on > Wednesday. > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | extropy-chat mailing list > | extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > | http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > | > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 8 19:27:57 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:27:57 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity Message-ID: <280250-22004938192757549@M2W074.mail2web.com> From: Damien >Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a very >tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi gigaflops. >Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, the >future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever going to >happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, boo >hoo): >http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCI FI08/TPEntertainment/ Buces just sent me a message from Ars Electronica, so he's out of our Austin loop for the moment. N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Sep 8 20:18:02 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:18:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <010d01c495e0$f4e8ffe0$1db71218@Nano> MessageGood one Spike, and that's keeping with the topic at hand! g` ----- Original Message ----- From: Spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:07 AM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public,...sort of like when mom would drag me to church and I would think dirty thoughts just because it's taboo.........but I am a natural clown, among other things. g For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local house of ill repute. Your mileage may vary. {8^D spike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 23:29:40 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908123307.01b1b7b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040908232940.65098.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule > returning solar particles to > Earth after a three-year mission that probed the > origins of the solar > system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be > captured in a mid-air > recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory > said on Wednesday. Well all I can say is good thing it wasn't sampling soil from an alien biosphere or we might have had the "andromeda strain" on our hands. As it is, we may have particles of exotic matter floating around Utah. They could be toxic or radioactive but hey at least it's just Utah. I am puzzled by the second to last sentence from the article: >The container inside the capsule had solar ions, some as light as a few grains of sand. I thought that ions were charged atoms or at least small molecules. So being equal in mass to a few grains of sand would make them the heaviest ions I have ever heard of. Is this a mistake? Or did they get some really crazy new form of heavy matter like atoms made of top quarks or something? ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From starman2100 at cableone.net Wed Sep 8 23:44:36 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:44:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes Message-ID: <1094687076_61554@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joe at barrera.org Thu Sep 9 00:04:31 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:04:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413F9E0F.9010404@barrera.org> Spike wrote: > For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local house of ill repute. I'd say Freud probably beat you to it. So to speak. -- Opium and Poison, Jasmine and Rose... From siproj at ripco.com Thu Sep 9 00:00:26 2004 From: siproj at ripco.com (siproj) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cryogenics Economics- Estate Tax deferral? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Greg Burch wrote: > Oh sure, such things have happened and (as you suspected) still > infrequently happen. But my point was about life insurance in general: > Life insurance is the ultimate business based on the qualities of > people's behavior in large numbers, and a successful reanimation would, > I hope, change that. The problem is this: life insurance is NEVER a > good bet for the "life insured": if you win, you lose (i.e. die). If > you live longer than the insurer expects, you pay the insurer MORE. > Even people of modest intelligence will figure out that life insurance > isn't a good deal in more and more circumstances -- at least at the > scale and for the reasons most people buy life insurance -- if they > think they have a chance at vastly extended lifespans. Actually not completely the case in real life Greg, there was a guy that outlived his policy in Iowa a few years back. They paid out his policy while he was alive since the original life insurance contract assumed no one would live past 92 (approximately). Insurance is merely a risk pool and a financial model designed to acquire and re-invest capital. The question is to whom the profits go, the payout go according to the rules in legitimate insurance contracts. > This isn't to say that some kind of actuarily-based insurance product > connected to both death-chances and cryonic suspension couldn't be > crafted (life actuaries are fiendishly clever folks), but it would have > to look quite a bit different -- legally and financially -- from current > life insurance products. GB -- http://www.gregburch.net Maybe the CryoAnnuity(tm) is the trademark you ought to register for a (r) or (sm). You still practive I. P. law? Maybe you can license it to several carriers or create an insurance contract and have back end insurance companies do the gory details and get your space habitat funded through passive income generation. Let me know. Dan siproj at rci.ripco.com Creator of alt.inventors and keeper of the Official alt.inventors FAQ despite what some alt.config sysadmin/waste of time/bandwidth actions. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 00:47:10 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:17:10 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04090817471a8b90b9@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:51:17 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > > >More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > > > >squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > > > >progress and no sense of direction. " > > > > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? > > > >Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. > > Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a very > tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi gigaflops. > Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, the > future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever going to > happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, boo hoo): > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCIFI08/TPEntertainment/ > > Damien Broderick I think this article, while equally negative, is actually making the opposite point... that the world is getting a lot harder to comprehend. I wonder if Bruce is actually having the same problem that a lot of us have, which is that when you stick your head in the firehose for long enough, you become a little dulled to sensation. At some point, you read an article describing something along the lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish there was something more interesting to read. There's definitely a can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees issue too, and these days there really are such a lot of trees. There's also the idea, which Bruce Sterling makes as well, that Vinge damaged sci-fi with the singularity meme. I wonder... maybe sci-fi always appealed to us geeks because it was a way to escape imagine extremely interesting things that seemed inconceivable in real (mundane) life. Perhaps decline in interest is due in part to the increasingly interesting world we geeks live in? After all, if I've got 24hr internet access and the associated bombardment of incredible factoids about the world that we live in right now, sci-fi needs to go a loooong way to stimulate my amazement modules enough to get my attention. And so the readership you have left are the fantasy drones who need escape literature because the world is far too bamboozling. Also, I must argue with the idea that sci-fi isn't as good... there is a lot of really quite stunning sci-fi on the shelves these days (eg: egan, bear, and our very own mr broderick). I often read it to relax my mind over a weekend when I've gone into information overload. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sentience at pobox.com Thu Sep 9 02:04:12 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:04:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04090817471a8b90b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <710b78fc04090817471a8b90b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <413FBA1C.8070604@pobox.com> Emlyn wrote: > > There's also the idea, which Bruce Sterling makes as well, that Vinge > damaged sci-fi with the singularity meme. Vinge didn't damage sci-fi, just presented it with an extremely difficult challenge to which few authors have risen. As for the failing authors who try to treat the Singularity as a postmodern ironic commentary on the futility of science fiction, well, too bad for them. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 03:08:59 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:08:59 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <413F9E0F.9010404@barrera.org> Message-ID: <000001c4961a$5dc871b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Joseph S. Barrera III > Spike wrote: > > > For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local > house of ill repute. > > I'd say Freud probably beat you to it. So to speak. > -- Ja but Ive often thought this whole Madonna/whore thing is a put-on. She doesn't seem any more promiscuous than any of the other female rock stars. Last Newtonmas I went to the post office for postage, they offered to show me the Madonna stamps. I objected that this isn't Madonna, this is some woman holding a glowing baby. Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. But as Gina pointed out, I fear we have swung wide of the thread here. {8^D spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 9 03:19:19 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:19:19 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019e01c4961b$cb8d6060$ec202dcb@homepc> Mike Lorrey: > I'm incredibly happy with this little tool, and am looking forward to > the day when I can have its decendant embedded in my brain, which I'm > now predicting will happen within this decade. I'd say, ya wanna bet, but then we'd have to work out a way to do it. Not within this decade - not unless you are a researcher yourself or planning to visit some mad scientist friend in a less regulated society. You'll still have Bush or Kerry in the Whitehouse for most of the time from now 'til then. Emlyn wrote: > At some point, you read an article describing something along the > lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon > nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish there > was something more interesting to read. I'd be potentially very impressed myself, though the "some guys" bit doesn't sound like a quote from a peer reviewed journal. Brett Paatsch From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 9 03:35:55 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:35:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <000001c4961a$5dc871b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <413F9E0F.9010404@barrera.org> <000001c4961a$5dc871b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. Damien Broderick From matus at matus1976.com Thu Sep 9 03:37:06 2004 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:37:06 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Davies' freedom In-Reply-To: <001101c4956b$bf665310$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <001a01c4961e$4db6afe0$6601a8c0@GREYBOOK> > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] Davies' freedom > > Paul Davies freely speculates about free will. > Two types of 'freedom' are described. One it is > supernatural and one natural. > http://www.naturalism.org/davies.htm This site/page appears to be arguing that physics indicates free will does not exist, though it claims the repercussions of that are not as bad as the pro-free will camp (me for one) would argue http://www.naturalism.org/freewill.htm " Philosopher Galen Strawson is interviewed by Tamler Sommers on what it would mean to free ourselves from mistaken beliefs in ultimate freedom and moral responsibility. Living with the truth that such things don't exist, although perhaps difficult at first, might bring considerable psychological and social benefits." " Philosopher Saul Smilansky thinks that belief in free will, which he concedes doesn't exist, is necessary to provide essential support for morality, meaning, and the worth of human beings. I argue that he is mistaken on all counts, and that we would be better off morally and existentially without believing the falsehood that we have free will. Moreover, Smilansky's view entails a massive, world-wide project of systematic deception about our causal connection to nature, which is neither possible, necessary, nor desirable. Free will is not a necessary fiction, and making known the naturalistic truth about ourselves is a far better basis for human flourishing." Michael From starman2100 at cableone.net Thu Sep 9 03:35:33 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:35:33 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity Message-ID: <1094700933_9484@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 04:24:07 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:24:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. > > Damien Broderick They don't like the compound verb "go postal." They also do not like the tasteless and offensive gag that goes: Q: What does it mean when the post office flag is half mast? A: They're hiring. Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going postal there for a while? Since a Lockheeed worker did likewise last year, I suppose the post office isn't the only job that can cause people to snap and murder. Could coincidence alone explain those three (?) incidents? Was it three? Or only two? spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 9 04:30:26 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:30:26 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <1094700933_9484@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <01d701c49625$bb0a7e80$ec202dcb@homepc> Emlyn wrote: > At some point, you read an article describing something along the > lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon > nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish there > was something more interesting to read. Brett replied: I'd be potentially very impressed myself, though the "some guys" bit doesn't sound like a quote from a peer reviewed journal. > John Grigg: Ahhh....., but actually it very well could be a quote taken from the peer reviewed journal entitled "Academy of Human Cellular and Stickshift Automobile Mechanics, Greater Trenton New Jersey Chapter." As I understand, it is peer reviewed by only fully certified stand-up guys who don't do you no wrong as long as you don't mess with their very expensive lab equipment. Molecular biologists from other states give them a wide berth, but women find them irresistable and claim with enough love and understanding they will change. -- lab equipment = moonshine still ? The standup guys actually are, but just barely, and the 'pee'-ers are mos'ly just "takin' the p*iss" ? Brett (NJ women sould nice) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 9 04:40:26 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:40:26 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908233951.01cebee8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going >postal there for a while? Mail menopause. Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 05:54:35 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:24:35 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908233951.01cebee8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20040908233951.01cebee8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040908225453fa24d8@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:40:26 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > >postal there for a while? > > Mail menopause. > > Damien Broderick > You'll find they were actually postmen-opausal. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From eugen at leitl.org Thu Sep 9 06:24:46 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:24:46 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) Message-ID: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Richard Reinholdt ----- From: Richard Reinholdt Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:51:06 -0700 To: pigdog at skunk.pigdog.org Subject: [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Reply-To: The Pigdog Mailing List From the current issue of the _SF Bay Guardian_: ---- Extropian trash By Annalee Newitz I HATE THE extropians. I just can't say enough bad things about their whole stupid, late 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced was inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, and (perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. Picture this: It's 1985, and a bunch of people, too young to have been hippies, too old to understand yet that Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Media Lab is doomed to be irrelevant, are still recovering from having grown up during the 1960s "rocket age." Now they're living in California doing boring jobs or going to stupid private universities, and the flying cars they were promised on The Jetsons are nowhere to be seen. Plus, nobody has cured cancer, the light-filled aliens haven't arrived to impart wisdom, and there still isn't an anti-aging drug they can take to preserve their wrinkle-free, preternatural tans. So they get into self-improvement, but with a high-tech twist. They call their movement "extropy" ? you know, like the opposite of "entropy," the process of slowing down and descending into chaos. Extropy is supposedly a way of always progressing, growing, and transforming oneself, particularly by using science. And the extropians decide that science is going to save them from everything, especially growing old and dying. It will be just like heaven, only with a lot more tantric sex and smart drugs. Some of them start theorizing that in the future they'll be able to upload their brains into computers. Others request that their bodies or heads be cryogenically frozen after they die so they can be revived, Futurama-style, in a far-distant future in which everything is perfect and glorious and subject only to the laws of extropy. You think I'm kidding, don't you? But I'm not. The extropian thing only got more popular all through the 1990s, riding the wave of dot-com psychosis into a mire of self-help delusions. Calling themselves "transhumanists" or "posthumanists," the extropians continue to preach longevity and techno-rapture and, occasionally, hedonism. Most of all, they proselytize for rampant individualism: it's all about achieving your dreams, making real life into science fiction so you can be whatever you want. It's precisely the kind of pseudo-religion that would appeal to people whose lifelong devotion to high-tech capitalism leaves them with no value system other than personal accumulation. After all, extropian heaven is automatically within reach if you can afford all the life-extending gadgets and pills that will supposedly hit the marketplace any day now. I suppose that's why various stripes of extropianism have flowered among professional geeks who want to believe there's something more to existence than coding all day. Of course, that something is just more of the very same life they're already leading ? which means they'll outlive their retirement on all that Google stock money. Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely has the potential to catch on, big time. First of all, it's already fairly popular among members of the nerd elite, who have money and control the blogosphere (I have a sudden urge to invent extropian blog conspiracy theories!). Maybe some of them can create an ExtroPAC that funds politicians who agree to support foolish longevity research. Plus, the extropians are a perfect fit for the U.S. political system because they appear to offer an alternative way of thinking while actually reinforcing the status quo. Extropians, for all their future worship, are part of the same cultural bent toward superstition that has led George W. Bush and other right-wingers to proclaim that stem cells are full of little souls, abortion is murder, global warming isn't a threat, and peer-to-peer networks are used primarily to disseminate child pornography. The only difference between a Bush conservative and a transhumanist is that conservatives project their fears onto technologies they don't understand, while transhumanists project their hopes. Either way, you've got a magical interpretation of science being advanced as a creepy political agenda. And let there be no doubt about it: the extropian agenda is creepy. Who wants to live forever in a world where only the richest people in developed countries will become immortal? It's not as if there's going to be a special cryogenics fund for everybody in Kenya and Chile. In order for people to live forever in the transhumanist future, some people will still have to live like trash. Sounds sort of like entropy to me. ---- http://www.sfbg.com/38/50/x_techsploitation.html Annalee Newitz (lycanthropy at techsploitation.com) is a surly media nerd and spazhumanist who would rather die than be an extropian. Her column also appears in Metro, Silicon Valley's weekly newspaper. _______________________________________________ pigdog mailing list pigdog at skunk.pigdog.org http://skunk.pigdog.org/mailman/listinfo/pigdog ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxm at mail.tele.dk Thu Sep 9 07:08:33 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:08:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk> Eugen Leitl wrote: >Extropian trash > >By Annalee Newitz > >I HATE THE extropians. I just can't say enough bad things about their whole >stupid, late 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced >was inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, and >(perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. > Low on research, high on attitude. I guess opinions are like assholes. Everobody has one. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From scerir at libero.it Thu Sep 9 09:45:57 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:45:57 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] mathscapes References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> Scientific American issued something special on the 100th anniversary of "Electrodynamics of moving bodies". http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?sc=top_nav [Below a short comment, by a good methematician, stolen from another forum] Much of interest, but the most interesting is the piece on the "Landscape" model of superstring theory. Basically, the idea is that the "local universe" has a geometry which dictates both its "space-time" structure and the behavior of its elementary particles. Specifically, in topological terms, one has a fiber bundle whose "base" is a 4-manifold space-time and whose fiber is a 6 manifold. There are, of course, additional geometric structures, viz., a Lorentz structure on the base - classical GR - and a geometry on the fiber which governs the behavior of strings, as well as dictating the local cosmological constant. Thus, the laws of GR emerge from the 4-dim geometry and "particle theory" from the 6-dim "hidden" geometry whose diameter is on the Planck scale. On this view, the only realizable local universes, represent local minima of a certain potential function. The not-so-Big Bang, in this model, is triggered by the transition of a single fiber to a new topology and geometry, which explosively ramifies, a la hyperinflation, into a new, largely stable mini-universe, such as ours. Mathematically and philosophically, this is a very attractive model, and neatly answers the theological version of the strong anthropic principle, as well as rendering rather pointless the perrenial question "What came before the Big Bang?" ----------- Something a little bit more physical, or less epiontic, can be found in this paper by Tegmark et al. http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0409072 From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 9 12:08:35 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:08:35 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? References: <2610-22004927204254990@M2W089.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <034801c49665$bbb4ad20$ec202dcb@homepc> Natasha wrote: > I'm quoting one of my professors: > > "Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean, predicted > (on 'Charlie Rose' last week) that he is sure that an Internet-based > third party will emerge before 2008 with money comparable to > what the two established parties can raise. (It's supposedly in > his book _The Revolution will be Televised_.)" I don't think an internet based third party would make sense. The internet is a medium - a technology. It would be like having a bull-horn based party. Parties need to have some sort of manifesto and to operate within some sort of physical space that relates to resources. I think politics 101 is about resourcing. If there wasn't a shortage of anything there wouldn't be politics. If there is a shortage and any sort of competition then there will be. Living things have more potential to develop then their is space for them all to develop into. Brett Paatsch From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 13:02:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <01d701c49625$bb0a7e80$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040909130229.17527.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Emlyn wrote: > > At some point, you read an article describing something along the > > lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon > > nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish > > there was something more interesting to read. > > Brett replied: > I'd be potentially very impressed myself, though the "some guys" bit > doesn't sound like a quote from a peer reviewed journal. > > > > John Grigg: > > Ahhh....., but actually it very well could be a quote taken from the > peer > reviewed journal entitled "Academy of Human Cellular and Stickshift > Automobile Mechanics, Greater Trenton New Jersey Chapter." > > As I understand, it is peer reviewed by only fully certified stand-up > guys who don't do you no wrong as long as you don't mess with their > very expensive lab equipment. > > Molecular biologists from other states give them a wide berth, but > women find them irresistable and claim with enough love and > understanding they will change. Hey Vinnie, I tink dis guys tryin' ta make funna us. Badda bing badda boom, I just snipped his tellameres. Thatt'll teach 'im ta make funna 'our friends'. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 13:08:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040909130821.31507.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> > Extropian trash > > By Annalee Newitz > > I HATE THE extropians. One more sign we are being taken seriously.... a funny article too... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 9 14:31:19 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:31:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] mathscapes In-Reply-To: <000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk> <000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040909092635.01b636c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:45 AM 9/9/2004 +0200, Serafino wrote: >Something a little bit more physical, or less epiontic, An interesting term. Do you mean it in Zurek's sense, where the ontic is entangled (so to speak) with the epistemic? < Surprisingly, it turns out that the usual central problem of the interpretation of the state vector ? the dual (epistemic and ontic, and hence epiontic) role of quantum states which on one hand encode the information observers have about the microscopic, but on the other hand are the only elements of the theory that can account for the objectively existing states of the macroscopic systems ? proves to be an advantage: It helps eliminate subjectivity of classical definitions, and allows one to define and compute probabilities as tools for predicting outcomes of a single experiment. > (arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0405161) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 17:23:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040909172318.71515.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. Spike's ass isn't big enough to stick a stamp to..... Now, be advised that post offices are 'gun free zones'. Postal workers are most likely to go postal on you if you pick on them too much about going postal.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 17:26:45 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040909172645.40852.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. > > > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. > > > > Damien Broderick > > They don't like the compound verb "go postal." They > also do not like the tasteless and offensive gag that goes: > > Q: What does it mean when the post office flag is half mast? > > A: They're hiring. > > > Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > postal there for a while? Since a Lockheeed worker did > likewise last year, I suppose the post office isn't the > only job that can cause people to snap and murder. Could > coincidence alone explain those three (?) incidents? Was > it three? Or only two? They are rather more frequent than that, but they noticably tend to happen in high gun control states. The fact that post offices are gun free zones shouldn't be seen as a coincidence (along with school shootings at gun free school zones). However, a number of postal workers I've talked to insist that the incidence of violent crime at the post office is actually lower than in the rest of corporate America, its just that the USPS has SO MANY employees that the number of incidents is high due to proportionality. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 17:29:25 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040908225453fa24d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040909172925.42390.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:40:26 -0500, Damien Broderick > wrote: > > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > > >postal there for a while? > > > > Mail menopause. > > > > Damien Broderick > > > > You'll find they were actually postmen-opausal. Of course, they prefer Zip-guns the most ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From scerir at libero.it Thu Sep 9 17:36:31 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:36:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] mathscapes References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk><000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20040909092635.01b636c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <010601c49693$8cd22e00$22b61b97@administxl09yj> > >Something a little bit more physical, or less epiontic, [Damien] > An interesting term. Do you mean it in Zurek's sense, > where the ontic is entangled (so to speak) with > the epistemic? Well, yes. There are perhaps different kinds of epionticism. But in general the number of authors believing that "reality" is not just something that "kicks back", is increasing. It is not just a matter of "information", of translation of physics (and biology? etc.) in "information science". "Information" is of course physical (Landauer). But physics is much reacher than information science (i.e. it is difficult to translate states like "quantum gloves" in information language, usually lacking proper orientations). It is a matter of "episteme", of "potentiality/propensity", of "relational". "Fields in empty space have physical reality; the medium that supports them does not. Correlations have physical reality; that which they correlate does not." [DM] A simple - but not trivial - level of epionticism..... "Do we need more spatial dimensions, no problem. Space is our invention anyway, so we can use as many dimensions as we need. If we want to use non-Euclidean geometry, no problem. Geometry is our invention, too. In fact, all these models should not be interpreted as elements of reality but merely our idiosyncratic descriptions (pictures) of observations. The 10^100 possible string theories supports the notion that there may be many models that do an equally good job. Indeed, the lack of a unique model proves my case." [VS] Then, more technical levels like these. "While the general superposition principle, from which nonlocality is derived, requires nonlocal states (that is, a kinematical nonlocality), most physicists seem to regard as conceivable only a dynamical nonlocality (such as Einstein's spooky action at a distance). The latter would even have to include superluminal actions. In contrast, nonlocal entanglement must already "exist" before any crucially related local but spatially separated events occur. For example, in proposed so-called quantum teleportation experiments, a nonlocal state has to be carefully prepared initially - so nothing has to be ported any more. After this preparation, the relevant state "exists but is not there". Or in similar words: the physical state is 'ou topos' (at no place), although it is not utopic according to quantum theory."[DZ] "During the recent decades, more and more superpositions have been confirmed to exist by clever experimentalists. We have learned about SQUIDs, mesoscopic Schoedinger cats, Bose condensates, and even superpositions of a macroscopic current running in opposite directions (very different from two currents canceling each other). Microscopic elements of quantum computers (which simultaneously perform different calculations in one superposition) have been successfully designed. All these superpositions may be (or must be) observed as individual physical states. Hence, their components "exist" simultaneously. As long as no unpredictable events have occurred, they do not form ensembles of possible states which would represent incomplete information about the true state." [DZ] "Entanglement is then achieved as a consequence of two facts: first, the impossibility to determine from the detection event which atom emitted the photon; second, the projection postulate in Quantum Mechanics, which indicates that after the detection the state of the atoms is projected onto the one which is compatible with the outcome of the measurement." [Cabrillo et al.] "The superposition of amplitudes is only valid if there is no way to know, even in principle, which path the particle took. It is important to realize that this does not imply that an observer actually takes note of what happens. It is sufficient to destroy the interference pattern, if the path information is accessible in principle from the experiment or even if it is dispersed in the environment and beyond any technical possibility to be recovered, but in principle 'still out there' ". [AZ] Finally, an epiontic mathscape, like this one. "So in the end, everyone was right, in a way. Information is lost in topologically non trivial metrics, like the eternal black hole. On the other hand, information is preserved in topologically trivial metrics. The confusion and paradox arose because people thought classically, in terms of a single topology for spacetime. It was either R4, or a black hole. But the Feynman sum over histories, allows it to be both at once. One can not tell which topology contributed the observation, any more than one can tell which slit the electron went through, in the two slits experiment. All that observation at infinity can determine, is that there is a unitary mapping from initial states, to final, and that information is not lost." [SH] From jonkc at att.net Thu Sep 9 17:55:22 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:55:22 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> >Sure, computers might someday awaken into something resembling > human consciousness, but we have no metrics to describe that >awakening and thus no objective way to recognize it if it happens. >How would you test a claim like that? Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; in short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method when you find a machine that claims to be conscious. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 18:07:26 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20040909180726.25273.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > >Sure, computers might someday awaken into something resembling > > human consciousness, but we have no metrics to describe that > >awakening and thus no objective way to recognize it if it happens. > >How would you test a claim like that? > > Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a > method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; > in short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method > when you find a machine that claims to be conscious. Yeah, but they don't taste as good... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 9 19:53:03 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:53:03 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! Message-ID: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of these statements below. Enjoy! Natasha "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." --Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." --Chairman of IBM, 1943 "I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." --The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957 "But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip. "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." --President, Chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." --Western Union internal memo, 1876. "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" --David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s. "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." --A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.) "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" --Warner Brothers, 1927. "I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper." --Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone With The Wind." "A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make." --Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies. "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." --Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962. "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." --President, Royal Society, 1895. "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." --Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M "Post-It" Notepads. "So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we' ll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'" --Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer. "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." --1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work. "You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training." --Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus. "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." --Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859. "Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." --Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929. "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." --Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre. "Everything that can be invented has been invented." --Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". --Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872 "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." --British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873. "640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Bill Gates, 1981 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From nanogirl at halcyon.com Thu Sep 9 20:45:54 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:45:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <20040909172925.42390.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a101c496ae$02fda630$1db71218@Nano> There were issues in the work environment, lousy contracts, low wages, over stressed working conditions (doubled up work loads), and health care benefit issues. Apparently letter carriers have had physical injuries due to being weighed down by what used to be just a load of mail in their satchel, but now also includes carrying extra mail on their arm, while on longer routes but with the same pay. They are also required to continue these walk routes no matter what the winter weather happens to be and have suffered frost bite etc. in hours of below zero temperatures. There are also stories of workers being stood behind by management, who time them using a stop watch while sorting the mail or while on breaks. Some supervisors have been reported as (and admitted to) spying on route carriers in unmarked cars or simply following them to make sure their route is eight hours long. If you do bad on route or in the mail room you get written up and followed more, if you do well you are given larger loads. Supervisors have been told to be strict on workers for small infractions and routinely call workers "bodies", this and other behaviors cause workers to feel they are treated as less than human. There is even a story where a woman's house was on fire, the supervisor was called and told, but did not notify the woman until her route was finished, her father died in the fire. Apparently the supervisor didn't want anyone to take her place, because he would then have to give the replacement carrier "overtime" wages, so he wanted to keep her. Workers often experience repetitive motion injuries as well as the mental numbness and back troubles. This has become a larger problem with the jump in the amount of mail being processed. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." > > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > > >postal there for a while? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpj at sics.se Thu Sep 9 20:47:12 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 22:47:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: Message from "John K Clark" of "Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:55:22 EDT." <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> John K Clark : | |Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a |method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; in |short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method when you |find a machine that claims to be conscious. As there currently (2004) does not exist any known meat puppets, the above method works for meat units. As there does exist known machine puppets, the above method does NOT work for non-meat units. Simply remote control a robot to make the robot say "I am conscious". I believe most humans would react as in the film "Short Circuit 2" [URL: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096101/] if a machine told them "I am conscious.". Your mileage may vary. From paul.bridger at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 23:11:56 2004 From: paul.bridger at gmail.com (Paul Bridger) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:11:56 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> It's almost like a parody of the fact-free ad-hominem attack rant. Very amusing. :) Paul Bridger From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 00:16:31 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:46:31 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040909171666ec039c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:11:56 +1200, Paul Bridger wrote: > It's almost like a parody of the fact-free ad-hominem attack rant. > Very amusing. :) > > Paul Bridger The funny thing is, that if you go read the rest of her articles on AltNet, she's very pro tech, pro science, for instance she's against stem cell research bans. Her stuff boils down to an essentially vapid, too-cool-to-be-cool more-ironic-than-thou attitude overload, heavily interspersed with I-bought-an-iPod-aren't-I-cool masquerading as god-this-new-iPod-is-so-lame. But she is a bone-fide technophile, (although she'd probably deny that). The heavy reaction to extropians... well we do give off a terribly culty smugness. Everyone's first reaction seems to be a similar revulsion, except maybe if you are a native of California. Sadly, I think the techno-worship and elite-is-good memes are hiding the real stuff, the ideas about morphological freedom and the ensuing ramifications for humanism based on the idea of a fluid human nature. And that'll continue, because the interesting ideas of transhumanism are subtle, while the superficial stuff is, of course, all available in easily digestable sound-bites and meme-blobs. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 01:22:51 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:22:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd fromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010f01c496d4$b0a51ae0$1db71218@Nano> She also wrote these elegant pieces: http://www.techsploitation.com/socrates/riotfuck.html g` ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bridger To: ExI chat list Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd fromthespian at doitnow.com) It's almost like a parody of the fact-free ad-hominem attack rant. Very amusing. :) Paul Bridger _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 01:43:49 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:43:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <20040909172318.71515.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c496d7$9f1a6a20$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? > > --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. > > Spike's ass isn't big enough to stick a stamp to..... Hey I resemble that comment. Besides stamps are really big these days, bigger than they used to be. So one might cover both buns. {8^D > Now, be advised that post offices are 'gun free zones'...Mike Lorrey The trouble with gun laws is that criminals don't obey laws. Those who slay their colleagues are criminals. Oh dear, this thread was intended to be lighthearted and thought provoking, but has taken a dark turn. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Sep 10 01:59:56 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Natasha wrote: > While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone > says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed > 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of > these statements below. What is gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied -sure. But it is possible that cryonics will never work. This is essentially my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking a close look at the arguments made in its favour). It is also possible that human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is unlikely and turns on the definition of human). Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an essential article of faith to extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, if that one does not believe in cryonics? I thought you would have said yes once, that it turns on the evidence and on how one examines propositions and beliefs. That extropians have no sacred cow beliefs including cryonics. Am I wrong? Brett Paatsch From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 10 02:57:01 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040910025701.68562.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an > essential article of faith to > extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, > if that one does > not believe in cryonics? >From my perspective, there is no problem here. I consider myself an extropian, yet I do not believe absolutely that cryonics will work. It might work - there is no solid proof for or against it. Thus, I believe it is worth trying as a last-ditch effort when more reliable options (like living) are no longer possible. Others who share our goals disagree, and that is fine. The destination is the important thing. The specific means of getting there only matter insofar as the destinations said means are likely to take us to. (For instance, a cultist preaching that the enlightenment we seek will be ours if we abandon all technology would not be extropian, for one can quite easily show that abandoning all technology would in fact only bring tragedy and misery despite the cultist's promise.) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 03:23:46 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:53:46 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Natasha wrote: > > > While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone > > says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed > > 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of > > these statements below. > > What is gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied -sure. > > But it is possible that cryonics will never work. This is essentially > my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking > a close look at the arguments made in its favour). Bold. > It is also possible that > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > Baring apocalypse, that's unlikely. Are you basing this on the Hayflick limit? > Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an essential article of faith to > extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, if that one does > not believe in cryonics? No specific technologies have anything to do with extropianism or transhumanism. > I thought you would have said yes once, that it turns on the evidence > and on how one examines propositions and beliefs. That extropians > have no sacred cow beliefs including cryonics. > > Am I wrong? > > Brett Paatsch AFAIK, you are correct. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 03:26:28 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:56:28 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04090920267f5cf481@mail.gmail.com> > > It is also possible that > > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > > > > Baring apocalypse, that's unlikely. Are you basing this on the Hayflick limit? Oops, answered this bit out of context, apologies. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 03:58:11 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:58:11 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> References: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <7a32170504090920585a02adee@mail.gmail.com> Fortunately (or unfortunately) it's still an academic question as to how humanity will respond to a self-proclaimed "conscious" machine. Personally I think if a machine were sufficiently convincing, most people would *treat* it as a sentient entity regardless of whether they actually belived it was conscious, intelligent, sentient, whatever. Think about the way people interact with their pets (especially dogs) when there is only the most minimal degree of communication between them. Imagine what it will be like when (not if) you have a robot with whom you can debate such things as Kerry vs. Bush, religion vs. atheism, altruism vs. selfishness. Even if the robot were only responding based upon human-designed algorhythmic manipulations of massive on-board data sets, if it "feels" like you are conversing with someone who is making sense, will it matter if that someone is "really" sentient (whatever that means)? After all isn't it true that human-to-human debates are just two beings applying complex algorhythmic manipulations of massive neuron based data sets? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Zero On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 22:47:12 +0200, KPJ wrote: > John K Clark : > | > |Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a > |method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; in > |short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method when you > |find a machine that claims to be conscious. > > As there currently (2004) does not exist any known meat puppets, the above > method works for meat units. > > As there does exist known machine puppets, the above method does NOT work > for non-meat units. > > Simply remote control a robot to make the robot say "I am conscious". > > I believe most humans would react as in the film "Short Circuit 2" > [URL: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096101/] if a machine told them > "I am conscious.". > > Your mileage may vary. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From jonkc at att.net Fri Sep 10 04:15:00 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:15:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <003901c496ec$cab8e660$61ff4d0c@hal2001> "KPJ" > Simply remote control a robot to make the robot say "I am conscious". I would expect more so that behavior wouldn't be enough to convince me it was conscious, but your mileage may vary. You have acted in a more sophisticated way than this very simple robot so I'm more convinced that you are conscious, but of course, I can never know for sure. I've never met you so I don't even know for certain that you are made of meat. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 04:23:00 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:23:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <00a101c496ae$02fda630$1db71218@Nano> References: <20040909172925.42390.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> <00a101c496ae$02fda630$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <7a3217050409092123520c13d7@mail.gmail.com> Not to mention the on-the-job hazards. My step dad was a letter carrier before going to law school. After he got admitted to the bar the majority of his cases were dog bites suffered by his former co-workers. I still can't believe how routinely those folks were getting munched on the job. Imagine delivering mail to someone with a vicious dog in the yard who is able on occasion to slip his leash or hop the fence. Imagine getting attacked by that dog and, after recouperating from the attack having to continue delivering mail to the offending dog owner. Why that alone is enough to make one want to go postal, or in my step dad's case get an education and get out of that line of work. Zero ----- Original Message ----- From: Gina Miller Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:45:54 -0700 Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? To: ExI chat list There were issues in the work environment, lousy contracts, low wages, over stressed working conditions (doubled up work loads), and health care benefit issues. Apparently letter carriers have had physical injuries due to being weighed down by what used to be just a load of mail in their satchel, but now also includes carrying extra mail on their arm, while on longer routes but with the same pay. They are also required to continue these walk routes no matter what the winter weather happens to be and have suffered frost bite etc. in hours of below zero temperatures. There are also stories of workers being stood behind by management, who time them using a stop watch while sorting the mail or while on breaks. Some supervisors have been reported as (and admitted to) spying on route carriers in unmarked cars or simply following them to make sure their route is eight hours long. If you do bad on route or in the mail room you get written up and followed more, if you do well you are given larger loads. Supervisors have been told to be strict on workers for small infractions and routinely call workers "bodies", this and other behaviors cause workers to feel they are treated as less than human. There is even a story where a woman's house was on fire, the supervisor was called and told, but did not notify the woman until her route was finished, her father died in the fire. Apparently the supervisor didn't want anyone to take her place, because he would then have to give the replacement carrier "overtime" wages, so he wanted to keep her. Workers often experience repetitive motion injuries as well as the mental numbness and back troubles. This has become a larger problem with the jump in the amount of mail being processed. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." > > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > > >postal there for a while? > > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Fri Sep 10 05:16:26 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:16:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090920585a02adee@mail.gmail.com> References: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> <7a32170504090920585a02adee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040910051625.GT1457@leitl.org> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:58:11PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... If it first takes your job, asking for a lower salary, and then takes your body for fuel and atoms questions about "is it conscious, I wonder?" are ridiculous. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 07:06:43 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:06:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash Message-ID: <02e801c49704$bd3cac70$1db71218@Nano> Okay I wrote up a response to the article that we read about us. I would like you all to read it and especially Natasha, let me know if it's stamped to go and I will send it to the newspaper and to her email address. This was the best I could do considering my time constrants. g` Extropian trash This is my personal response to the article that appeared in the San Francisco Bay Guardian http://www.sfbg.com/38/50/x_techsploitation.html . I wrote this article because I felt compelled to clarify some of the uninformed statements made in this article. This response has not been written by the Extropians, the opinions expressed are my own. 1.)I HATE THE extropians. 1.) "Hate" (capitalized non the less) is a strong word from some one I have never met and has never met me. Even though I strongly disagree with the author's opinions regarding my Extropian friends, I do not hate the author and this dialog would not benefit anyone, including myself, especially if I am trying to establish a rational point. 2.) I just can't say enough bad things about their whole stupid, late 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced was inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, and (perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. 2.) I am not a roboticist nor a Christian, and Heinlein did not influence me to be interested in anything or support anyone. 3.) Picture this: It's 1985, and a bunch of people, too young to have been hippies, too old to understand yet that Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Media Lab is doomed to be irrelevant, are still recovering from having grown up during the 1960s "rocket age." 3.) I was not raised in the 1960's and in 1985 I was still in school. In fact, I believe I was born the same year as the author of this article. So this sociological analysis is a generalization, and an unfounded one at that. I have met many Extropians of many ages, with many diverse personalities, interests and belief systems, who do not fit into the above described box. 4.) Now they're living in California 4.) We live all over America as well as over seas. I am currently not living in California. However, I do understand the association that is being drawn, technology and Silicon Valley are being married together here, however a location does not dictate a state of mind. 5.) doing boring jobs or going to stupid private universities, 5.) First let me say that I am surprised that private universities are described as "stupid". I personally have not been to enough private universities to study the curriculum or how well the system functions, nor have I studied the statistics to determine or form an opinion on the current bar of education at these facilities as compared to other universities, but perhaps the author has done so, and has simply left the evidence out of the article. I also do not know where the information of Extropians have "boring jobs" or attending "private universities" was received from. The word "boring" is highly subjective, so what is boring for one is not boring for another, thus the statement itself is speculative. I know many Extropians who do very exciting, intellectual and productive work. I also am married to a Harvard PhD graduate, my best friend attended M.I.T. and many of my Extropian friends have attended a myriad of schools, and some have not attended any. Their jobs, are also just as diverse, from artists to astronomers. 6.) and the flying cars they were promised on The Jetsons are nowhere to be seen. Plus, nobody has cured cancer, 6.) This is a very, very, crucial point that I am glad the author has pointed out. In 1993 nanotechnology was introduced to me. When I realized the potential benefits that future applications of this emerging technology could have on society, I began my research (see www.nanoindustries.com). In particular one of the most intriguing is the impact it will have on biotechnology. The theorized treatments and monitors could change the face of medicine. It has been over a decade now and I have now been happily married to a man for four years (married 2000), the love of my life, who helped organize one of the first nanotechnology conferences, wrote many articles and edited books on the topic, and is a loving, caring person (see #12). It was our common interest in nanotechnology that in fact, brought us together. In May, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, a form of cancer, and is currently undergoing chemotherapy. Would I prefer that my husband could have the advantages of nanotechnology or other advances as an alternative to the tiring and immune suppressive chemotherapy that he is now undergoing, absolutely. Would I like the same to be available for others, absolutely. We both would like to see the continuation and aide of medical and other advances continue in a safe and educated manner. Today when you are ill, you go to the hospital to receive treatment, it's not considered selfish (see #11) we access technology to help alleviate our pain and cure what ails us. We use technology to communicate via website, like I have, like the author of this article has. Just because technology is often scary when it is not here yet, we can not ignore it's usefulness, even in today's world. This doesn't mean that we can not contemplate the benefits and the risks either, that is exactly the sort of debate that goes on within the Extropian community. How do we guide, how do we prevent, etc. It was many years after my interest in nanotechnology that I discovered the Extropians (I believe it was 1998?). I found a place where I could address the big questions in life in an intelligent forum with insightful people. There was not only discussion of my particular interest, but also philosophical issues, art, science, language, psychology, music, space, the universe, genetics, current events, history, biology, ethics, the environment, the mind, the list could go on and on. The topics are not one sided, opinions vary and these are expressed in healthy debate. This type of dialog is an example of how communication is often education. 7.) the light-filled aliens haven't arrived to impart wisdom, 7.) Do I really have to express that I have never expected such an arrival? 8.) and there still isn't an anti-aging drug they can take to preserve their wrinkle-free, preternatural tans. 8.) I have no idea what she means by this? I don't even tan, in fact, I glow in the dark. 9.) So they get into self-improvement, but with a high-tech twist. They call their movement "extropy" - you know, like the opposite of "entropy," the process of slowing down and descending into chaos. Extropy is supposedly a way of always progressing, growing, and transforming oneself, particularly by using science. And the extropians decide that science is going to save them from everything, especially growing old and dying. It will be just like heaven, only with a lot more tantric sex and smart drugs. 9.) I have never heard the term "heaven" used to describe the future that we hope for. What I have heard is a need for resolution of the problems that we currently face. Every day we watch the news and are all somberly aware that there are things that we need to work on. We live in a world of suffering, hunger, disease, pollution, why would we not try to investigate and support solutions for these problems? 10.) Some of them start theorizing that in the future they'll be able to upload their brains into computers. Others request that their bodies or heads be cryogenically frozen after they die so they can be revived, Futurama-style, in a far-distant future in which everything is perfect and glorious and subject only to the laws of extropy. 10.) Cryonics suspension does not mean that those who are revived will be revived in a "far-distant, Futurama-style" future, but rather when the technology to revive them becomes available, when ever that is. That could be five years from now or a hundred years from now. The goal is not to wake up in a "perfect" futuristic world, but merely to wake up! Something else to note: not everyone who is an Extropian is signed up for cryonics and not everyone signed up for cryonics is an Extropian. 11.) You think I'm kidding, don't you? But I'm not. The extropian thing only got more popular all through the 1990s, riding the wave of dot-com psychosis into a mire of self-help delusions. Calling themselves "transhumanists" or "posthumanists," the extropians continue to preach longevity and techno-rapture and, occasionally, hedonism. Most of all, they proselytize for rampant individualism: it's all about achieving your dreams, making real life into science fiction so you can be whatever you want. 11.) This goes back to the answer above (#9), the descriptions used here "self-help delusions", "occasionally, hedonism" (#6), and "rampant individualism" are not at all applicable descriptions when you look at the fact that our group is interested in benefiting society as a whole. Of course if you imagine a world that is better for all, you can also imagine a world that is better for the individual. There are many benefits in the world today that can be seen as benefiting the whole and the individual, much of the advances accomplished today do so. Supporting technology does not mean that we believe anybody can do "whatever you want", we are not envisioning anarchy. Our moral fibre is intact. Our vision of the future is to utilize advancements to achieve a healthy environment, healthy bodies, healthy minds, and general well being. This is the same vision that we have for the majority used today in bringing all of our advances into our daily lives, at the doctors, at work, in our pockets and into our kitchens and living rooms. And to quote "it's all about achieving your dreams", when did that become a faux pas? Isn't that what our grandmothers and mothers told us since we were small children? So isn't the alternative to say, don't follow your dreams, be unhappy, that doesn't make any sense to me. 12.) It's precisely the kind of pseudo-religion that would appeal to people whose lifelong devotion to high-tech capitalism leaves them with no value system other than personal accumulation. 12.) Extropy is not a religious structure. My personal experience with fellow members has not displayed the lack of "value system" that the author describes. It's shocking that we are some how mis-interpreted as non-human and non-hearted folk, just because we want to see technology continue to help solve the worlds problems. Extropians are just as caring, family oriented and generous as any of the most kind people anybody else knows in their own lives. There have been times in my life where I turned to my Extropian friends and they all came to my aide in my time of need (#11), and I am referring emotional need (#14). We all have families and friends, we all have compassion and there are those of us who are not well enough off to invest in the "high-tech" companies or even to "accumulate" things. If materialism was a requirement, I and others certainly wouldn't be there. 13.) After all, extropian heaven is automatically within reach if you can afford all the life-extending gadgets and pills that will supposedly hit the marketplace any day now. I suppose that's why various stripes of extropianism have flowered among professional geeks who want to believe there's something more to existence than coding all day. Of course, that something is just more of the very same life they're already leading - which means they'll outlive their retirement on all that Google stock money. 13.) Again, I am speaking personally here, I have no Google investment (money again?), and I do not take pills, except for "Flintstones Complete". But I do strongly disagree with the idea that taking protein powders or life extension pills is wrong. Why? Are vitamins wrong? Is medication wrong? Is healthy eating wrong? Is exercise wrong? It's the same thing. It's a personal choice to care for your body so you can live a long and healthy life for yourself and those around you. 14.) Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely has the potential to catch on, big time. First of all, it's already fairly popular among members of the nerd elite, who have money and control the blogosphere (I have a sudden urge to invent extropian blog conspiracy theories!). 14.) Why is there this instance that we all have money, I imagine some of us do, but if I do, please kindly send me the safe deposit key so that I may access it. During this time with my husbands illness and our insurance companies lack of ability to pay for the treatments, we sure could use it. People who speculate on theories, discuss and support the possibilities of technology or the future, do not need money to do so. 15.) Maybe some of them can create an ExtroPAC that funds politicians who agree to support foolish longevity research. Plus, the extropians are a perfect fit for the U.S. political system because they appear to offer an alternative way of thinking while actually reinforcing the status quo. 15.) Extropy is not associated with any political party. 16.) Extropians, for all their future worship, 16.) We do not "worship" the future, as the future is yet untold, we are only discussing and preparing for it to be a better future than days gone by. 17.) are part of the same cultural bent toward superstition that has led George W. Bush and other right-wingers to proclaim that stem cells are full of little souls, abortion is murder, global warming isn't a threat, and peer-to-peer networks are used primarily to disseminate child pornography. The only difference between a Bush conservative and a transhumanist is that conservatives project their fears onto technologies they don't understand, while transhumanists project their hopes. Either way, you've got a magical interpretation of science being advanced as a creepy political agenda. 17.) This analogy is somewhat confusing. While I agree with the insinuation the author has regarding George W. Bush (and I am speaking for myself, not the Extropians), I am not clear on how we are just like him except for "projecting hope"? This is a very odd metaphor since the author almost seems to be agreeing with my ideologies so the parallel is almost the proof! 18.) And let there be no doubt about it: the extropian agenda is creepy. Who wants to live forever in a world where only the richest people in developed countries will become immortal? It's not as if there's going to be a special cryogenics fund for everybody in Kenya and Chile. 18.) Extropy is not just cryonic suspension (the term cryogenics is a related procedural general term). Yes Extropians see the advantages of future technological applications, much in the same we are currently living with the benefits of modern medicine. However, not every single Extropian is signed up for cryonic suspension. Since the Extropian movement does not include only members who believe in "such and such technology" it is more generally open since emerging technologies tend to relate to each other. Another point is, that it is not expensive to sign up for cryonics, if you opt to pay by simply paying a standard insurance payment rather than a flat fee. Nanotechnology for example would give those who live in poverty access to manufacture their own supplies for practically no cost due to it's use of raw materials. 19.) In order for people to live forever in the transhumanist future, some people will still have to live like trash. Sounds sort of like entropy to me. 19.) I'm not sure what the author means by "live like trash". If I were to assume that she meant those who are not financially secure, then I would also assume those who are not, might find the "trash" reference objectionable. With that said, there are very wide distances between the rich and the poor in the world we in live in today (#18). Many of the technologies we as Extropians discuss, aim to shorten that distance. 20.) Annalee Newitz (lycanthropy at techsploitation.com) is a surly media nerd and spazhumanist who would rather die than be an extropian. Her column also appears in Metro, Silicon Valley's weekly newspaper. 20.) I tried to look the word "spazhumanist" up, but apparently it's not a real word. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 07:49:10 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:49:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org><3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> <010f01c496d4$b0a51ae0$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> What's really blowing my mind is after I wrote the response I found this article by her that advocates nanotech!? http://www.alternet.org/story/16629 Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of advanced technology, and is then against those who support it? Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 08:22:16 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:22:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> <010f01c496d4$b0a51ae0$1db71218@Nano> <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <7a3217050409100122107cb44b@mail.gmail.com> Gina: As Emlyn pointed out earlier, she is really every bit the techie. But she's also a professional opinion giver. She earns her keep by giving opinions that sell. I have no problem with that. It's better than being a crime boss. But the fact is that you are not going to get her to retract her stated opinions, not matter how reasonable and eloquent your response to her article. That just wouldn't sell. My guess is that she's probably lurking this list and, if you want her to know you think she's full of it, you probably have nothing to do other than post your opinion here. Bottom line for her is she has to write opinions her editors and readers consider to be reasonable. Given the fairly wide-spread pejorative descriptions given of Extropians (and even such "main stream" figures as Eric Drexler), she would likely be written off as a looney by her higher-ups (not to mention her "public") if she came out in support of Extropians. The path she has taken is the safe one, and the only reasonable one she can take if she expects to continue earning a living as a professional opinion giver. My advice: Don't waste your time responding to her. Your energies would be much better spent putting together the next installment of Nanogirl News (which I, for one, always look forward to). Zero ----- Original Message ----- From: Gina Miller Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:49:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian at doitnow.com) To: ExI chat list What's really blowing my mind is after I wrote the response I found this article by her that advocates nanotech!? http://www.alternet.org/story/16629 Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of advanced technology, and is then against those who support it? Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Sep 10 10:40:17 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:40:17 +1000 Subject: That "human" thing (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com><03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc><710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc04090920267f5cf481@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <050d01c49722$93c1cb50$ec202dcb@homepc> Emlyn wrote: > > > It is also possible that > > > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > > > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > > > > > > > Baring apocalypse, that's unlikely. Are you basing this on the Hayflick limit? > > Oops, answered this bit out of context, apologies. No apology necessary. And no I wasn't basing this on the Hayflick limit. I'm a stem cell campaigner. I learnt to recognize how important language can be when I heard Senator Brian Harradine of Tasmania trying to corral some of Australia's leading scientists into an admission that an embryo is a human being. Human because what other form of life would it be - its clearly alive, and "being" because it exists. Harradine didn't nail the scientists (on that occassion) but a lot of less politically savvy folk do get nailed. And frankly they deserve too if they go into a political charged environment like embryonic stem cell research and they haven't got straightened out in their own minds that human life does in fact take place on a number of levels, including the cellular one. A cancer cell can be a human life. Heck if it is alive and a human cancer cell it is a form of human life. Clearly all forms of human life are not equivalent even morally even by the standards of people who have an essentially conservative Christian worldview. So my point above way not that some decedents of folk that call themselves humans will not at some stage have lifespans of greater than 123 years. I suspect that they will - but it will not be easy to get to that either scientifically or politically. To get there politically I think we will need to hone the terminology we use better or we will not be able to have the enabling (and necessary) debates. By the time life spans of 123 years are generally expected I suspect the term "human" may have fallen into disuse. It may have needed to to enable the ethical discussion of rights and responsibilities of persons in society to move onto the next level. Regards, Brett Paatsch From maxm at mail.tele.dk Fri Sep 10 11:09:01 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:09:01 +0200 Subject: That "human" thing (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <050d01c49722$93c1cb50$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com><03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc><710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc04090920267f5cf481@mail.gmail.com> <050d01c49722$93c1cb50$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <41418B4D.8060308@mail.tele.dk> Brett Paatsch wrote: >I'm a stem cell campaigner. I learnt to recognize how important language >can be when I heard Senator Brian Harradine of Tasmania trying to >corral some of Australia's leading scientists into an admission that an >embryo is a human being. Human because what other form of life would >it be - its clearly alive, and "being" because it exists. > It's a pretty clever argument. But by that argument a fresh drop of blood, or piece of skin is also a human being. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 12:19:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <20040910051625.GT1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040910121932.53948.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:58:11PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > > > If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... > > If it first takes your job, asking for a lower salary, and then takes > your body for fuel and atoms questions about "is it conscious, I > wonder?" are ridiculous. People who talk about ducks to define what is and isn't something always seem to forget about platypuses.... they have rounded bills, webbed feet, lay eggs, and spend most of their time in the water.... and are not ducks. If you could teach a platypus to say "AFLAC", would you call it a duck? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 12:47:39 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash In-Reply-To: <02e801c49704$bd3cac70$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20040910124739.9939.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> too self-serious, you should try to deconstruct her arguments with similar scorn and humor --- Gina Miller wrote: > Okay I wrote up a response to the article that we read about us. I > would like you all to read it and especially Natasha, let me know if > it's stamped to go and I will send it to the newspaper and to her > email address. This was the best I could do considering my time > constrants. g` > > Extropian trash > > This is my personal response to the article that appeared in the San > Francisco Bay Guardian > http://www.sfbg.com/38/50/x_techsploitation.html . I wrote this > article because I felt compelled to clarify some of the uninformed > statements made in this article. This response has not been written > by the Extropians, the opinions expressed are my own. > > > 1.)I HATE THE extropians. > 1.) "Hate" (capitalized non the less) is a strong word from some one > I have never met and has never met me. Even though I strongly > disagree with the author's opinions regarding my Extropian friends, I > do not hate the author and this dialog would not benefit anyone, > including myself, especially if I am trying to establish a rational > point. > > 2.) I just can't say enough bad things about their whole stupid, late > 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced was > inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, > and (perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. > > 2.) I am not a roboticist nor a Christian, and Heinlein did not > influence me to be interested in anything or support anyone. > > 3.) Picture this: It's 1985, and a bunch of people, too young to have > been hippies, too old to understand yet that Massachusetts Institute > of Technology's Media Lab is doomed to be irrelevant, are still > recovering from having grown up during the 1960s "rocket age." > > 3.) I was not raised in the 1960's and in 1985 I was still in school. > In fact, I believe I was born the same year as the author of this > article. So this sociological analysis is a generalization, and an > unfounded one at that. I have met many Extropians of many ages, with > many diverse personalities, interests and belief systems, who do not > fit into the above described box. > > 4.) Now they're living in California > > 4.) We live all over America as well as over seas. I am currently not > living in California. However, I do understand the association that > is being drawn, technology and Silicon Valley are being married > together here, however a location does not dictate a state of mind. > > 5.) doing boring jobs or going to stupid private universities, > > 5.) First let me say that I am surprised that private universities > are described as "stupid". I personally have not been to enough > private universities to study the curriculum or how well the system > functions, nor have I studied the statistics to determine or form an > opinion on the current bar of education at these facilities as > compared to other universities, but perhaps the author has done so, > and has simply left the evidence out of the article. > > I also do not know where the information of Extropians have "boring > jobs" or attending "private universities" was received from. The word > "boring" is highly subjective, so what is boring for one is not > boring for another, thus the statement itself is speculative. I know > many Extropians who do very exciting, intellectual and productive > work. I also am married to a Harvard PhD graduate, my best friend > attended M.I.T. and many of my Extropian friends have attended a > myriad of schools, and some have not attended any. Their jobs, are > also just as diverse, from artists to astronomers. > > 6.) and the flying cars they were promised on The Jetsons are > nowhere to be seen. Plus, nobody has cured cancer, > > 6.) This is a very, very, crucial point that I am glad the author has > pointed out. In 1993 nanotechnology was introduced to me. When I > realized the potential benefits that future applications of this > emerging technology could have on society, I began my research (see > www.nanoindustries.com). In particular one of the most intriguing is > the impact it will have on biotechnology. The theorized treatments > and monitors could change the face of medicine. It has been over a > decade now and I have now been happily married to a man for four > years (married 2000), the love of my life, who helped organize one of > the first nanotechnology conferences, wrote many articles and edited > books on the topic, and is a loving, caring person (see #12). It was > our common interest in nanotechnology that in fact, brought us > together. In May, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, a form of > cancer, and is currently undergoing chemotherapy. Would I prefer that > my husband could have the advantages of nanotechnology or other > advances as an alternative to the tiring and immune suppressive > chemotherapy that he is now undergoing, absolutely. Would I like the > same to be available for others, absolutely. We both would like to > see the continuation and aide of medical and other advances continue > in a safe and educated manner. Today when you are ill, you go to the > hospital to receive treatment, it's not considered selfish (see #11) > we access technology to help alleviate our pain and cure what ails > us. We use technology to communicate via website, like I have, like > the author of this article has. Just because technology is often > scary when it is not here yet, we can not ignore it's usefulness, > even in today's world. This doesn't mean that we can not contemplate > the benefits and the risks either, that is exactly the sort of debate > that goes on within the Extropian community. How do we guide, how do > we prevent, etc. > > It was many years after my interest in nanotechnology that I > discovered the Extropians (I believe it was 1998?). I found a place > where I could address the big questions in life in an intelligent > forum with insightful people. There was not only discussion of my > particular interest, but also philosophical issues, art, science, > language, psychology, music, space, the universe, genetics, current > events, history, biology, ethics, the environment, the mind, the list > could go on and on. The topics are not one sided, opinions vary and > these are expressed in healthy debate. This type of dialog is an > example of how communication is often education. > > 7.) the light-filled aliens haven't arrived to impart wisdom, > > 7.) Do I really have to express that I have never expected such an > arrival? > > 8.) and there still isn't an anti-aging drug they can take to > preserve their wrinkle-free, > > preternatural tans. > > 8.) I have no idea what she means by this? I don't even tan, in fact, > I glow in the dark. > > 9.) So they get into self-improvement, but with a high-tech twist. > They call their movement "extropy" - you know, like the opposite of > "entropy," the process of slowing down and descending into chaos. > Extropy is supposedly a way of always progressing, growing, and > transforming oneself, particularly by using science. And the > extropians decide that science is going to save them from everything, > especially growing old and dying. It will be just like heaven, only > with a lot more tantric sex and smart drugs. > > 9.) I have never heard the term "heaven" used to describe the future > that we hope for. What I have heard is a need for resolution of the > problems that we currently face. Every day we watch the news and are > all somberly aware that there are things that we need to work on. We > live in a world of suffering, hunger, disease, pollution, why would > we not try to investigate and support solutions for these problems? > > 10.) Some of them start theorizing that in the future they'll be able > to upload their brains into computers. Others request that their > bodies or heads be cryogenically frozen after they die so they can be > revived, Futurama-style, in a far-distant future in which everything > is perfect and glorious and subject only to the laws of extropy. > > 10.) Cryonics suspension does not mean that those who are revived > will be revived in a "far-distant, Futurama-style" future, but rather > when the technology to revive them becomes available, when ever that > is. That could be five years from now or a hundred years from now. > The goal is not to wake up in a "perfect" futuristic world, but > merely to wake up! > > Something else to note: not everyone who is an Extropian is signed up > for cryonics and not everyone signed up for cryonics is an Extropian. > > 11.) You think I'm kidding, don't you? But I'm not. The extropian > thing only got more popular all through the 1990s, riding the wave of > dot-com psychosis into a mire of self-help delusions. Calling > themselves "transhumanists" or "posthumanists," the extropians > continue to preach longevity and techno-rapture and, occasionally, > hedonism. Most of all, they proselytize for rampant individualism: > it's all about achieving your dreams, making real life into science > fiction so you can be whatever you want. > > 11.) This goes back to the answer above (#9), the descriptions used > here "self-help delusions", "occasionally, hedonism" (#6), and > "rampant individualism" are not at all applicable descriptions when > you look at the fact that our group is interested in benefiting > society as a whole. Of course if you imagine a world that is better > for all, you can also imagine a world that is better for the > individual. There are many benefits in the world today that can be > seen as benefiting the whole and the individual, much of the advances > accomplished today do so. > > Supporting technology does not mean that we believe anybody can do > "whatever you want", we are not envisioning anarchy. Our moral fibre > is intact. > > Our vision of the future is to utilize advancements to achieve a > healthy environment, healthy bodies, healthy minds, and general well > being. This is the same vision that we have for the majority used > today in bringing all of our advances into our daily lives, at the > doctors, at work, in our pockets and into our kitchens and living > rooms. > > And to quote "it's all about achieving your dreams", when did that > become a faux pas? Isn't that what our grandmothers and mothers told > us since we were small children? So isn't the alternative to say, > don't follow your dreams, be unhappy, that doesn't make any sense to > me. > > 12.) It's precisely the kind of pseudo-religion that would appeal to > people whose lifelong devotion to high-tech capitalism leaves them > with no value system other than personal accumulation. > > 12.) Extropy is not a religious structure. My personal experience > with fellow members has not displayed the lack of "value system" that > the author describes. It's shocking that we are some how > mis-interpreted as non-human and non-hearted folk, just because we > want to see technology continue to help solve the worlds problems. > Extropians are just as caring, family oriented and generous as any of > the most kind people anybody else knows in their own lives. There > have been times in my life where I turned to my Extropian friends and > they all came to my aide in my time of need (#11), and I am referring > emotional need (#14). We all have families and friends, we all have > compassion and there are those of us who are not well enough off to > invest in the "high-tech" companies or even to "accumulate" things. > If materialism was a requirement, I and others certainly wouldn't be > there. > > 13.) After all, extropian heaven is automatically within reach if you > can afford all the life-extending gadgets and pills that will > supposedly hit the marketplace any day now. I suppose that's why > various stripes of extropianism have flowered among professional > geeks who want to believe there's something more to existence than > coding all day. Of course, that something is just more of the very > same life they're already leading - which means they'll outlive their > retirement on all that Google stock money. > > 13.) Again, I am speaking personally here, I have no Google > investment (money again?), and I do not take pills, except for > "Flintstones Complete". But I do strongly disagree with the idea that > taking protein powders or life extension pills is wrong. Why? Are > vitamins wrong? Is medication wrong? Is healthy eating wrong? Is > exercise wrong? It's the same thing. It's a personal choice to care > for your body so you can live a long and healthy life for yourself > and those around you. > > 14.) Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like > evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely > has the potential to catch on, big time. First of all, it's already > fairly popular among members of the nerd elite, who have money and > control the blogosphere (I have a sudden urge to invent extropian > blog conspiracy theories!). > > 14.) Why is there this instance that we all have money, I imagine > some of us do, but if I do, please kindly send me the safe deposit > key so that I may access it. During this time with my husbands > illness and our insurance companies lack of ability to pay for the > treatments, we sure could use it. > > People who speculate on theories, discuss and support the > possibilities of technology or the future, do not need money to do > so. > > 15.) Maybe some of them can create an ExtroPAC that funds politicians > who agree to support foolish longevity research. Plus, the extropians > are a perfect fit for the U.S. political system because they appear > to offer an alternative way of thinking while actually reinforcing > the status quo. > > 15.) Extropy is not associated with any political party. > > 16.) Extropians, for all their future worship, > > 16.) We do not "worship" the future, as the future is yet untold, we > are only discussing and preparing for it to be a better future than > days gone by. > > 17.) are part of the same cultural bent toward superstition that has > led George W. Bush and other right-wingers to proclaim that stem > cells are full of little souls, abortion is murder, global warming > isn't a threat, and peer-to-peer networks are used primarily to > disseminate child pornography. The only difference between a Bush > conservative and a transhumanist is that conservatives project their > fears onto technologies they don't understand, while transhumanists > project their hopes. Either way, you've got a magical interpretation > of science being advanced as a creepy political agenda. > > 17.) This analogy is somewhat confusing. While I agree with the > insinuation the author has regarding George W. Bush (and I am > speaking for myself, not the Extropians), I am not clear on how we > are just like him except for "projecting hope"? This is a very odd > metaphor since the author almost seems to be agreeing with my > ideologies so the parallel is almost the proof! > > 18.) And let there be no doubt about it: the extropian agenda is > creepy. Who wants to live forever in a world where only the richest > people in developed countries will become immortal? It's not as if > there's going to be a special cryogenics fund for everybody in Kenya > and Chile. > > 18.) Extropy is not just cryonic suspension (the term cryogenics is a > related procedural general term). Yes Extropians see the advantages > of future technological applications, much in the same we are > currently living with the benefits of modern medicine. However, not > every single Extropian is signed up for cryonic suspension. Since the > Extropian movement does not include only members who believe in "such > and such technology" it is more generally open since emerging > technologies tend to relate to each other. > > Another point is, that it is not expensive to sign up for cryonics, > if you opt to pay by simply paying a standard insurance payment > rather than a flat fee. > > Nanotechnology for example would give those who live in poverty > access to manufacture their own supplies for practically no cost due > to it's use of raw materials. > > 19.) In order for people to live forever in the transhumanist future, > some people will still have to live like trash. Sounds sort of like > entropy to me. > > 19.) I'm not sure what the author means by "live like trash". If I > were to assume that she meant those who are not financially secure, > then I would also assume those who are not, might find the "trash" > reference objectionable. With that said, there are very wide > distances between the rich and the poor in the world we in live in > today (#18). Many of the technologies we as Extropians discuss, aim > to shorten that distance. > > > > 20.) Annalee Newitz (lycanthropy at techsploitation.com) is a surly > media nerd and spazhumanist who would rather die than be an > extropian. Her column also appears in Metro, Silicon Valley's weekly > newspaper. > > 20.) I tried to look the word "spazhumanist" up, but apparently it's > not a real word. > > > Gina "Nanogirl" Miller > Nanotechnology Industries > http://www.nanoindustries.com > Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html > Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org > Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org > Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html > Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com > "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Sep 10 14:22:22 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:22:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Body Hopping Message-ID: <00dc01c49741$96b61400$6600a8c0@brainiac> So many children are inculcated with - "If I should die before I wake, I pray the lord my soul to take" - and for various other reasons, human beings just don't seem ready for prime time when it comes to *not* separating the two - body and soul: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/10/opinion/10bloom.html?th Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 15:21:44 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:21:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <00dc01c49741$96b61400$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/bush.guard.ap/index.html From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Sep 10 15:41:51 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:41:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash Message-ID: <132870-220049510154151938@M2W053.mail2web.com> Hi Gina, I sent you a private response with just a couple of comments. I think that the most important thing is to not take this personally. (Spoken from someone who has been through this more than once.) Second, if you provide accurate, meaningful facts, just a few will set her straight and show her that yellow-dog journalism is a cope-out for her profession. Here is one fact: Extropy Institute's Board consistes of 6 members, 4 of whom as not American citizens (Canada, Venezuela, Sweden and England make up the board) Greg Burch lives in Houston and my home has been Telluride, Colorado (well, New York originally). Second, most membership of ExI is outside Califonria and in fact, is global. Drop a few names. For example: 1.)I HATE THE extropians. Then you must hate Eric Drexler, father of nanotechnology; Marvin Minsky, father of artificial intelligence; Ray Kurzweil, noted innovator and award winning inventor; Christine Peterson, founder of Foresight Institute; Pamela Lifton-Zoline, founder of the Telluride Institute; and Roy Walford, world-reknown scientist and author, just to name a few. If you keep your rebuttal short and factual, then she will read it. If you respond emotionally she will toss it in the trash. By the way, I wonder where she did get her erroneous information? Another reason why transhumanists have a responsibility to author their FAQs accurately and not publically badmouth each other. I hope we all can work toward this and stop others who are doing it in their tracks. My best to all, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 15:49:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040910154936.36042.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> To be objective, radical left wingers are reporting that the IBM Selectrec II typewriter (the 'golfball' typewriter, named due to its round head) was capable of producing 10 point super and subscript as well as its 12 point standard text, as well as proportional spacing. However, if 60 minutes has the originals, they should show indentation/compression marks in the paper, especially seen on the backside, which would not be produced by a printer. Similarly, the inks used on 1972 typewriter tape would have different chemical composition to 1990's inkjet or laser printers. The ink would also have a pixeled pattern on a printed letter vs. a fully inked letter on the typewriter version. Anyone with a simple jewellers or publishers loupe could determine whether the originals are fakes or forgeries. --- Spike wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/bush.guard.ap/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Fri Sep 10 16:17:53 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:17:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith could use some help (fwd from hkhenson@rogers.com) Message-ID: <20040910161753.GM1457@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Keith Henson ----- From: Keith Henson Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:29:33 -0400 To: sl4 at sl4.org Subject: Keith could use some help X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Reply-To: sl4 at sl4.org Actually Keith is *desperate* for help. I got turned down on my refugee claim an incredible 10 months after the last hearing. But after that my appeal to the Canadian federal courts was almost instantly rejected. So at this point I am a "failed refugee." The only thing that can keep me from being deported to the US on short notice is an appeal to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Her office gets 15,000 letters a week so it takes a well known case to reach the level where it gets attention. Now you say, being deported to the US isn't so bad. Well in my case it is. Here is testimony obtained about a week ago. It is from May 13, 2004. A Toronto cop is being quizzed by my lawyer about events when I came here three and a half years ago (Robert K Schwarz is the deputy DA who prosecuted the case against me with the help of a former Mafia lawyer.) Q. I don't think you need to go into that. I think we're all aware of that. Did Mr. Schwarz did you ask him if he was going to take any steps to extradite Mr. Henson? A. Yes, I did. Q. And he responded that he wasn't? A. He said the State of California would not extradite Mr. Henson from Canada, however, if Mr. Henson was found to be in another State, such as New York, then they would probably proceed with extradition requests from New York. Q. I see. But he made it clear to you that they have no intention to try to extradite him from Canada? A. It came down to a matter of cost, dollars and cents. Q. He wasn't candid enough to admit that they couldn't extradite him from Canada? A. No. He just said that the State of California would not extradite Mr. Henson from Canada Q. I see. A. because of the cost. Of course scientology would be footing the bill. Someone who has been sentenced does not have to be extradited, they can just be kidnapped by bounty hunters. And cult agents have made fairly clear public threats that I would not survive jail. Considering the depth the cult has corrupted the government of Riverside County, I can hardly look for justice there or even being safe in their jail. I am about to release information that makes the case that scientology created a jury where most of the members were under their control. Ok, if you want to help what to do? If you live in Canada, write your MP with a cc to my MP and if you will, a blind cc to me or if you want, post it. You can ask them asking your MP to pass a copy on to the Minister, Judy Sgro. You can get your MP from your postal code by going here: http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=canadaonline&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parl.gc.ca%2Finformation%2Fabout%2Fpeople%2Fhouse%2FPostalCode.asp%3Flang%3DE%26amp%3Bsource%3Dsm My MP is Lloyd St Amand, Constituency Address 98 Paris Road, Unit 3 Brantford, Ontario N3R 1H9 E-Mail: stamal at parl.gc.ca He says that email and postal mail are given the same attention. If you are outside of Canada, supporting email to stamal at parl.gc.ca asking him to help me stay in Canada would be the way to go. If you know me personally or by reputation, put that in your email or letter. Half a page to a page is more likely to get read, but the length is up to you. Thumbnail background here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson and in too much detail here: http://www.operatingthetan.com/civil-rights-letter-redacted.htm Much appreciate your efforts. Keith Henson PS and if anyone wants to read the whole transcript, ask and I will try to get it up on a web site. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 17:30:17 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:30:17 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash References: <132870-220049510154151938@M2W053.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <003401c4975b$d731cdc0$1db71218@Nano> Okay, be patient with me. Jim and I have to go to the emergency room, sigh. So I will not be able to get back to this until later today. Gina` Hi Gina, I sent you a private response with just a couple of comments. I think that the most important thing is to not take this personally. (Spoken from someone who has been through this more than once.) Second, if you provide accurate, meaningful facts, just a few will set her straight and show her that yellow-dog journalism is a cope-out for her profession. Here is one fact: Extropy Institute's Board consistes of 6 members, 4 of whom as not American citizens (Canada, Venezuela, Sweden and England make up the board) Greg Burch lives in Houston and my home has been Telluride, Colorado (well, New York originally). Second, most membership of ExI is outside Califonria and in fact, is global. Drop a few names. For example: 1.)I HATE THE extropians. Then you must hate Eric Drexler, father of nanotechnology; Marvin Minsky, father of artificial intelligence; Ray Kurzweil, noted innovator and award winning inventor; Christine Peterson, founder of Foresight Institute; Pamela Lifton-Zoline, founder of the Telluride Institute; and Roy Walford, world-reknown scientist and author, just to name a few. If you keep your rebuttal short and factual, then she will read it. If you respond emotionally she will toss it in the trash. By the way, I wonder where she did get her erroneous information? Another reason why transhumanists have a responsibility to author their FAQs accurately and not publically badmouth each other. I hope we all can work toward this and stop others who are doing it in their tracks. My best to all, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Fri Sep 10 18:15:52 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:15:52 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <4141EF58.2050901@pobox.com> Spike wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/bush.guard.ap/index.html One of the most interesting aspects of this story, which is not, of course, reported in the CNN article, was that numerous Internet sources and blogs spotted this problem almost immediately, even while dozens of newspapers continued to report the story as unquestioned fact. But you can't expect the Old Media to report on how the New Media is faster, smarter, less credulous, and more concerned with accuracy than the Old Media. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From naddy at mips.inka.de Fri Sep 10 19:30:16 2004 From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:30:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> Message-ID: natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone > says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed > 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of > these statements below. This silly listing keeps getting posted here every year. How about adding some other failed predictions for balance? Where are the nuclear tugs that supply Arabia with antarctic icebergs for freshwater? Where's my flying car? Where can I book that vacation with a hike up Olympus Mons or at least a visit to Tycho? Mocking people with hindsight is easy. Unless you understand the reasons behind why these forecasts were made and why they proved to be incorrect, you are just babbling stupidly. > "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." > --Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 Literally taken, this turned out to be mostly true... > "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a > means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." > --Western Union internal memo, 1876. Yes, and they had good reasons for this. A while back, c't magazine had an excellent multipart essay by Gundolf Freyermuth where he examined the cultural history of communications. The telephone is a huge anomaly. Over the course of history, communications has increasingly moved into the written domain, a trend that has lately picked up again (email, SMS, IM). > "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." > --President, Royal Society, 1895. Superficially this is so stupid that I would dearly love to learn the rationale behind it. Birds fly, bird are heavier than air, so heavier-than-air flight clearly is possible. (Some phrasings of this quote even leave the qualification "machines" out.) The argument must be about scaling, power density, etc. Should be very interesting for those of us with an amateur interest in physics. Or maybe the original statement really was that stupid. I mean there are still people out there today who claim with a straight face that the human mind must have some mystical part, soul, whatever, that a machine can never possess. > "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The > literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." > --Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M > "Post-It" Notepads. Yup. And generally, when the literature says it can't be done, this amazingly turns out to be true. Rare counterexamples notwithstanding. > "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction > and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. > He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." > --1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket > work. Well, that showcases that the editorial writer didn't understand the conservation of momentum. And he didn't have today's excuse of seeing it all the time violated in movie/TV fiction. Of course a lack of understanding (or willful neglect of) the conservation of momentum is pretty much required to become a science fiction writer. You see, this very thing that makes rockets work also makes it darn hard to fly around with rockets in the solar system. > "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." > --Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre. Rather true at the time the statement was made. Initial use of planes was limited to battlefield reconnaissance. The statement obviously fails to account for the amazing progress aviation would make in the subsequent three decades, but then it isn't phrased as a prediction. Military history buffs correct me, but I don't think any major military failed to catch on to the importance of planes in the time between WWI and WWII. > "Everything that can be invented has been invented." > --Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. Known to be an urban legend. (As I suspect are some more in the list.) > "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". > --Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872 > > "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the > intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." > --British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873. Oh yes, the history of medicine is very interesting. Much of modern medicine that we are so used to only dates from the late 19th and early 20th century. The quackery that was previously dominant is truly appalling. > "640K ought to be enough for anybody." > -- Bill Gates, 1981 I'm still confounded by this. As those of us who understand a bit how those PC-thingies work and who are old enough to remember those times know, the 640kB limit is an artifact of IBM's original PC architecture, something outside of Gates's control. And of course the IBM PC was only a quick hack and never designed as the starting point of a computing architecture for decades to come--undoubtedly IBM could have done a much better job if they had understood what role the PC would play. Which leads us back into failed prediction territory. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at mips.inka.de From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 22:12:51 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20040910221251.67434.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gina Miller wrote: > What's really blowing my mind is after I wrote the > response I found this article by her that advocates > nanotech!? > http://www.alternet.org/story/16629 > > Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of > advanced technology, and is then against those who > support it? I don't think she is against any of our pet technologies. She is definitely not a Luddite. I think she actually has a lot in common with us but does not wish to call herself one of us. She probably had a bad personal experience with one of us and that has colored her opinion of the whole group. I can imagine this happening. I had independently reached many of the same philosophical conclusions regarding technology and longevity that you guys had before I ever ran across the term "Extropy". When I found ExI on the web and made my first few posts to the list, you people weren't the most friendly discussion group to join but you eventually warmed up to me. I have a thicker skin than most. If I didn't, I might be writing blog-rants against you folks too. My assessment is that this woman is a great gadfly. Her core beliefs are essentially ours so she won't actually be able to say anything that logically refutes our position and all her rhetoric is great free publicity for our movement. For the record: 1. I have an exciting job at a public university (the same one I got my degree at). 2. We don't have flying cars because the authorities don't trust us with them not because the technology isn't there. I have seen at least two prototypes of flying cars demonstrated on tv tech shows over the years. We get into enough accidents and stuff with the normal ground-based automobiles so flying cars would just be unsafe for the masses to drive. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 22:20:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040910222029.14746.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and > reaction > > and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which > to react. > > He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high > schools." > > --1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's > revolutionary rocket > > work. > > Well, that showcases that the editorial writer didn't understand > the conservation of momentum. And he didn't have today's excuse > of seeing it all the time violated in movie/TV fiction. Of course > a lack of understanding (or willful neglect of) the conservation > of momentum is pretty much required to become a science fiction > writer. You see, this very thing that makes rockets work also makes > it darn hard to fly around with rockets in the solar system. Ignorance was even more widespread than just one editor. Goddard had to run an experiment of shooting a pistol in a vacuum chamber to prove that the recoil still existed... > > > "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." > > --Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre. > > Rather true at the time the statement was made. Initial use of > planes was limited to battlefield reconnaissance. The statement > obviously fails to account for the amazing progress aviation would > make in the subsequent three decades, but then it isn't phrased as > a prediction. Military history buffs correct me, but I don't think > any major military failed to catch on to the importance of planes > in the time between WWI and WWII. You stand corrected. Airplanes were of immense use during wwi to destroy zeppelins (used to bomb with heavy loads as well as observe) and observation balloons. Observation itself is a rather important military value, being the key to intelligence gathering. They also fought against each other to prevent enemy fighters from shooting down one's own zeppelins and balloons. Secondly, Col. Billy Mitchell, who served with Rickenbacher and Hap Arnold during WWI, advocated air power in the immediate postwar period, and demonstrated its potential by bombing and sinking several Battleships and cruisers captured from Germany that were slated for destruction. However, all this is immaterial to the quote above, since it was made prior to 1914. > > > "Everything that can be invented has been invented." > > --Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. > > Known to be an urban legend. (As I suspect are some more in the > list.) I thought this was said by the head of the Smithsonian. Don't depend on Snopes for your authority. If they can't find it on the web, they generally call something an urban legend until someone proves otherwise. > > > "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". > > --Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872 > > > > "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from > the > > intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." > > --British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen > Victoria 1873. > > Oh yes, the history of medicine is very interesting. Much of modern > medicine that we are so used to only dates from the late 19th and > early 20th century. The quackery that was previously dominant is > truly appalling. Actually, this quote was made at a time when human experimentation was considered immoral, and only unethical quacks messed around with dead bodies, a la the Frankenstein story got its premise... > > > "640K ought to be enough for anybody." > > -- Bill Gates, 1981 > > I'm still confounded by this. As those of us who understand a bit > how those PC-thingies work and who are old enough to remember those > times know, the 640kB limit is an artifact of IBM's original PC > architecture, something outside of Gates's control. > > And of course the IBM PC was only a quick hack and never designed > as the starting point of a computing architecture for decades to > come--undoubtedly IBM could have done a much better job if they had > understood what role the PC would play. Which leads us back into > failed prediction territory. The PC architecture was developed to be a modularly assembled personal computer from mostly off the shelf components that were used in other applications. The 640k limit was an artifact of this off the shelfness, to which designers found they could program quite a bit (though most applications we take for granted today were not even dreamed of or at least on the drawing boards) with it, much as programmers today are learning the art of programming for the Palm OS, a limited resource architecture. Of course, Bill grew up in an incredibly competitive family, where the siblings and neighbors kids all engaged in extremely competitive games and contests all the time. The "ought to be enough for anybody" I think is actually a statement of bravado amongst programmers, much like someone saying they can name that tune in three notes.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 01:04:28 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20040911010428.90653.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gina Miller wrote: > Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of > advanced technology, and is then against those who > support it? I would guess that she got a wrong impression of the extropes, and then got carried away. I kind of enjoyed her little rant, didn't take it too seriously, looked on it as an artistic piece, more about style than substance. After all, who starts a serious piece with "I HATE THE..."? Feels to me like she's emulating--to some degree--the style of Cintra Wilson, another Bay Area woman writer with a tasty over-the-top style. So I would go with Natasha's recommendation, Gina, that you not take it personal. Also, by way of trying to understand why someone so technophilic, educated, and talented would get her knickers in a twist over the extropians, I direct your attention to the second sentence in the piece, which starts with "I just can't say enough bad things about..." and ends with what at first might seem an oddly specific focus of criticism: "...(perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein." Why does she single out Heinlein? Where in the extropian experience does she chance upon something Heinleinian, and how does this encounter so unsettle her that she is moved to link Heinlein and Extropianism and then confer upon this mysterious coupling the gold medal of ire: "perhaps worst of all"? Occam's razor explains all. She came to the extropian's list. She read some of Mike Lorrey's stuff--thus the Heinlein connection--TAANSTAAFL et al--and her head exploded. That would be my guess. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 01:38:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040911010428.90653.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040911013815.35866.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Davis wrote: > > She came to the extropian's list. She read some of > Mike Lorrey's stuff--thus the Heinlein > connection--TAANSTAAFL et al--and her head exploded. > > That would be my guess. Ah, well, it's secret love, then. That's gotta be it. She's trying to get my attention. She knows I enjoy sarcasm, irony, and ad hominem humor.... Can anybody introduce us? ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 02:45:42 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:45:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040910221251.67434.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c497a9$6eb85d60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > The Avantguardian > 2. We don't have flying cars because the authorities > don't trust us with them not because the technology > isn't there... We have flying cars, had em since the 50s. They don't go on the street, but the Jetson's "cars" didn't either. Ours make a lotta noise and wind, they take up a lot of parking lot space. They are also really expensive to operate. The flying car people would have us believe that they can build a helicopter with unreasonably short rotors, but the efficiency goes way down when you build them that way, so the power requirements go way up, making them even more noisy and more expensive. spike From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Sep 11 03:00:42 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:00:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040910221251.67434.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010d01c497ab$86b9ecb0$1db71218@Nano> I have sent the letter off with a few adjustments based on the feedback I received. Thank you Natasha, for taking the time to give me those facts and as usual your wonderful support. Thank you Damien who has typo radar! Thank you Avantguardian, I added your point about flying car demonstrations. Thank you to the rest of the Extropy gang who posted to this topic, this is another instance of supporting each other and discussion, that only goes to prove the points I made in my response. And don't worry, I'm not taking the authors comments personally, it's just that I meant everything I said! I figure if she can share her opinion, so can I. Sometimes I just can't help myself! So, we'll just wait and see if anything comes of it. Thank you again, g` Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at att.net Sat Sep 11 05:04:44 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:04:44 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> My favorite bad prediction was made by an expert in 1901, "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly", this man said. Normally I heap scorn on such foolish statements but I won't in this case because this prediction was made by a fellow by the name of Wilbur Wright after a series of extremely disappointing glider experiments. His bogus prediction can be forgiven because he was the very one who made it untrue; two years later Wilber Wright was flying. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From jonkc at att.net Sat Sep 11 05:54:20 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:54:20 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> He who talks about the liberation of atomic energy on an industrial basis is talking moonshine?. Lord Rutherford September 1933 There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom. The glib supposition of utilizing atomic energy when our coal has run out is a completely unscientific Utopian dream, a childish bug-a-boo. Nature has introduced a few fool-proof devices into the great majority of elements that constitute the bulk of the world, and they have no energy to give up in the process of disintegration. - Robert A. Millikan [1928 speech to the Chemists' Club (New York)] There is not the slightest indication that [nuclear energy] will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will. - Albert Einstein, 1932. That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives. - Admiral William Leahy. [Advice to President Truman, when asked his opinion of the atomic bomb project.] The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it... Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient. - Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839), French surgeon There is a young madman proposing to light the streets of London?with what do you suppose?with smoke! - Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832) [On a proposal to light cities with gaslight.] When the Paris Exhibition closes electric light will close with it and no more be heard of. - Erasmus Wilson (1878) Professor at Oxford University Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value. - Editorial in the Boston Post (1865) Radio has no future. - Lord Kelvin British mathematician and physicist, . 1897. What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives traveling twice as fast as stagecoaches? - The Quarterly Review, England (March 1825) Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia. - Dr. Dionysus Lardner (1793-1859), Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy at University College, London. That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced. - Scientific American, Jan. 2, 1909. If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done. - Peter Ustinov John K Clark jonkc at att.net From eugen at leitl.org Sat Sep 11 05:57:45 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:57:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Manifesto for Open Chemistry (fwd from george@LIBRARY.CALTECH.EDU) Message-ID: <20040911055745.GY1457@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from george at LIBRARY.CALTECH.EDU ----- From: george at LIBRARY.CALTECH.EDU Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:01:37 -0700 To: CHMINF-L at LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: A Manifesto for Open Chemistry Reply-To: CHEMICAL INFORMATION SOURCES DISCUSSION LIST forwarded from Open Access News Peter Murray-Rust, Henry S. Rzepa, Simon. M. Tyrrella, and Y. Zhanga, Representation and use of Chemistry in the Global Electronic Age , a preprint forthcoming from Organic & Biomolecular Chemistry. On the exciting potential of combining open access and the semantic web in chemistry. Excerpt: "Almost all of an author's output (compounds, spectra, reactions, properties, etc.) is nowadays computerised and in principle redistributable to the community for re-use. Few journals actively validate the primary data (e.g. spectra) involved in a publication (chemical crystallography being a clear expectation where data are intensively reviewed by machine). We reassert that chemists must now move towards publishing their collective knowledge in a systematic and easily accessible form for re-use and innovation....We urge that authors, funders, editors, publishers and readers move further towards the following protocol: [1] All information should be ultimately machine-understandable in XML....[2] Machine-understandable information for a compound should include a connection table, the IUPAC unique identifier (INChI) which guarantees that the connection table can be checked and regenerated, and a name....[3] Rights metadata. An explicit statement in the data that its re-use is consistent with the Budapest Open Access initiative and a requirement that this statement be preserved when the data is re-used....The main challenge is for chemists to recognise the value of making their data machine-understandable, rather than destroying it with traditional paper or slide-focused publication and dissemination processes." http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2004_09_05_fosblogarchive.html#a10948 3796605304806 George S. Porter Sherman Fairchild Library of Engineering & Applied Science California Institute of Technology Mail Code 1-43, Pasadena, CA 91125-4300 Telephone (626) 395-3409 Fax (626) 431-2681 http://library.caltech.edu contributor http://stlq.info | http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/fosblog.html CHMINF-L Archives (also to join or leave CHMINF-L, etc.) http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/chminf-l.html Search the CHMINF-L archives at: http://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=chminf-l Sponsors of CHMINF-L: http://www.indiana.edu/~cheminfo/chminf-l_support.html ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 07:37:15 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:07:15 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040911013815.35866.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040911010428.90653.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> <20040911013815.35866.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040911003715774c60@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:38:15 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Jeff Davis wrote: > > > > She came to the extropian's list. She read some of > > Mike Lorrey's stuff--thus the Heinlein > > connection--TAANSTAAFL et al--and her head exploded. > > > > That would be my guess. > > Ah, well, it's secret love, then. That's gotta be it. She's trying to > get my attention. She knows I enjoy sarcasm, irony, and ad hominem > humor.... > > Can anybody introduce us? ;) > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism Mike and a "sex and the city" pseudo feminist? Lol! If I could introduce you Mike, I would! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 10:34:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:34:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <010d01c497ab$86b9ecb0$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: I have just seen the Extropian Trash article. As many pointed out it is so full of factually wrong statements that it should be considered as meaningless noise. The only signal hidden in the noise is: "...Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely has the potential to catch on, big time.... Now the same conclusion is also implied by Fukutyama in his recent Foreign Policy piece on transhumanism as the most dangerous idea of our times. In other words: our opponents are SCARED, and this can only mean that they realize that transhumanist thinking is here to stay and grow, perhaps more than we ourselves hope: our enemies actually believe in the fast spread of transhumanist memes more than transhumanists themselves. So I take these two articles as a sign of hope and an encouragement for all transhumanists. We must continue writing calm and rational pieces in support of our ideas, and try spreading them as wide as possible. At the same time lets bear in mind that as we acquire more visibility and trust the fight is bound to get even dirtier (as politicians know). I don't think it is wise to spend too much energy in defense against pieces like Extropian Trash. Better focosing on positive messages to everyone who wants to read them. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 23/04/2004 From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 11:07:13 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:07:13 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: Message-ID: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >... our opponents are SCARED, and this > can only mean that they realize that transhumanist thinking is > here to stay and grow, perhaps more than we ourselves hope: > our enemies actually believe in the fast spread of transhumanist > memes more than transhumanists themselves. Perhaps folk like Kass, Fukutyama and an assortment of professional opinionists are actually in a symbiotic relationship with transhumanists. Sort of like the media is in a symbiotic relationship with politicians. How'd it be if transhumanists were actually providing the oxygen to Kass's flame? Brett Paatsch From neptune at superlink.net Sat Sep 11 12:18:47 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:18:47 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Piecing Together Human Aging: Science Online Special Collection Message-ID: <001601c497f9$7e04a120$29893cd1@pavilion> http://www.sciencemag.org/sciext/aging2004/ From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 11 12:35:18 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:35:18 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog]Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <000701c497fb$cce93ec0$ffb51b97@administxl09yj> > How'd it be if transhumanists were actually providing > the oxygen to Kass's flame? > Brett Paatsch Pareto argued that elites are inevitable in all societies. Pareto in particular argued that there were two types of elites: 'lions', who rule by force and coercion, and 'foxes', who rule by cunning stealth and persuasion. The 'masses', according to Pareto, are made of 'followers', because they are inarticulate. In short Pareto perceives the masses as unfit for government. Pareto pointed out that there is a 'circulation of elites', whereby one type of elite ('lions' or 'foxes') is replaced by the other type. Are transhumanists lions, foxes, or something else? Are Fukuyamists lions, foxes, or something else? Are Al-Qaedians lions, foxes, or something else? Was Vilfredo Pareto completely wrong? From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Sat Sep 11 12:57:50 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:57:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <2FCDAB59-03F2-11D9-84D0-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Really what do individual predictions show? Its hard to predict the future. Some people make optimistic predictions and some make pessimistic predictions. Many optimistic predictions don't work out either. A lot of people are still waiting for Christ to return. The question is whether Extropians will be waiting for their own personal saviour for another 2000 years. ciao, patrick From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 14:02:16 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:02:16 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> <2FCDAB59-03F2-11D9-84D0-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <016401c49807$f1f784e0$ec202dcb@homepc> Patrick wrote: > Really what do individual predictions show? Its hard to predict the > future. Some people make optimistic predictions and some make > pessimistic predictions. Many optimistic predictions don't work out > either. A lot of people are still waiting for Christ to return. The > question is whether Extropians will be waiting for their own personal > saviour for another 2000 years. Yep. People laughed at Christopher Collumbus but they also laughed at Bozo the clown. Predictions are really beside the point. Projections and plans on the other may be weighted and critiqued and sometimes falsified. Brett From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 14:39:28 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:39:28 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat][Pigdog]Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> <000701c497fb$cce93ec0$ffb51b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <017e01c4980d$2483f100$ec202dcb@homepc> scerir wrote: > Pareto argued that elites are inevitable in all societies. > Pareto in particular argued that there were two types of elites: > 'lions', who rule by force and coercion, and 'foxes', who > rule by cunning stealth and persuasion. > Are transhumanists lions, foxes, or something else? > Are Fukuyamists lions, foxes, or something else? > Are Al-Qaedians lions, foxes, or something else? > Was Vilfredo Pareto completely wrong? Something else. Lions and foxes are only used here as types. That we can consider and use them as types gives us the answer. Many if not most individual modern homo sapiens can leverage tool making intelligence to muster more force than lions and more cunning and stealth than foxes in the same specimen. That is in no small part because the animal predators of modern humans are also often more forceful than lions and more cunning than foxes - they are other modern humans. The principle predator and competitor to modern humans has been modern humans for so long that those that are alive likely carry genes as well as memes for fierceness and cunning - including Al-Qaedia. Brett From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Sep 11 16:44:05 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040911164405.78548.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > >... our opponents are SCARED, and this > > can only mean that they realize that transhumanist > thinking is > > here to stay and grow, perhaps more than we > ourselves hope: > > our enemies actually believe in the fast spread of > transhumanist > > memes more than transhumanists themselves. > > Perhaps folk like Kass, Fukutyama and an assortment > of > professional opinionists are actually in a symbiotic > relationship with > transhumanists. Sort of like the media is in a > symbiotic relationship > with politicians. I'd say the opioninists are more like parasites than symbiots. Politicians provide fodder to the media, who in turn provide exposure to the politicians. What unquestionably good/useful thing do opinionists provide to us? We already get exposure just by ourselves. Contrast this to how things would be if we weren't there: they would have to find something else to write irate articles about. From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 11 17:44:19 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:44:19 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians (et al.) References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <001201c49826$f7c83990$71b21b97@administxl09yj> [Strange 'from west to east' effects] US schools ban Darwin from class http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,656228,00.html http://www.bigeye.com/creation.htm http://www.aip.org/pt/vol-53/iss-10/p73a.html http://whyfiles.org/095evolution/ [DB] > Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan > by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, > to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers. Serbian government has reversed an order to ban Charles Darwin's theory of evolution from schools ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3642460.stm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953639/ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5932128/ http://www.channelone.com/news/2004/09/10/ap_creationism/ From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 11 18:09:13 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:09:13 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] splitting photons References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <001201c49826$f7c83990$71b21b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <005f01c4982a$721d0790$71b21b97@administxl09yj> J.J. Thorn et al., Am. J. Phys., v.72, p.1210 (2004). [Abstract] While the classical, wavelike behavior of light (interference and diffraction) has been easily observed in undergraduate laboratories for many years, explicit observation of the quantum [or 'particle'] nature of light (i.e.,photons) is much more difficult. For example, while well-known phenomena such as the photoelectric effect, and Compton scattering, strongly suggest the existence of photons, they are not *definitive* proof of their existence. [Leonard Mandel wrote the same, so: no doubt about it!] Here we present an experiment, suitable for an undergraduate laboratory, that unequivocally demonstrates the quantum nature of light. Spontaneously downconverted light is incident on a *beamsplitter* and the outputs are monitored with single-photon counting detectors [2 detectors, plural]. We observe a near absence of *coincidence* counts between the two detectors - a result inconsistent with a classical wave model of light, but consistent with a quantum [particle] description in which individual photons are incident on the beamsplitter. More explicitly, we measured the degree of second-order coherence between the outputs to be g(2)(0) = 0.0177?0.0026 which violates the classical inequality g(2)(0)>=1 by 377 standard deviations. [End of Abstract] So, photons really do not split (but their wavefunctions ...). "The hypothesis of light-quanta is not able to throw light on the nature of radiation." - N. Bohr, 1922 Nobel Lecture. (Lewis called "photons" these light quanta, in 1926). A paper by John F. Clauser, in "Quantum [Un]speakables", ("unspeakable", you know, according to J.Bell, were the unothodox quantum models, like hidden variables, etc., that orthodox physicists did not like at all, and journals refused to publish), R.A.Bertlmann and A.Zeilinger eds., Springer, 2002, is titled "Early History of Bell's Theorem", pages 61-98, and is very interesting. Chapter 6.14 is devoted to "Splitting Photons?". Essentially Clauser is discussing, in there, but very shortly, Schroedinger's interpretation of Compton & Simon exp. (different from von Neumann's idea), and also the simplistic Adam, Janossy, Varga experiments (suggested by Schroedinger, references below), and also his own experiment (reference below) which was a great improvement of the A.J.V. experiments. According to Clauser his experiment (similar to that above) already showed that "both quantum mechanics and quantum electrodynamics hold true, and photons do not split at a half-silvered mirror." and also that the Cauchy-Schwarz inequality was, for the first time, violated (in his experiment), which represents the "first observation of sub-Poissonian statistics for light." According to Clauser, his exp. resolves another problem that Schroedinger himself stated: does the photoelectric effect reveal a statistical (Bohr) or a precise (von Neumann) conservation of energy? QED is formally based on an assumed strict equality of h*nu (QM) and integral (over space) of EM field energy. Clauser's exp. shows that the above equality holds and, thus, necessarily, there is a precise conservation of energy. References therein: - E.Schroedinger, Physikalishe Zeits. 23 301 (1922); Die Naturwissenschaften 12 720 (1924); Nuovo Cimento 9 162-170 (1958). - A.Adam, L.Janossy, P.Varga, Acta Phys. Hung. 4 301 (1955); Ann. Phys. 16 408 (1956). - J.F.Clauser, Phys. Rev. D-9 853 (1974). - P.Grangier, G.Roger, A.Aspect, Europhys. Lett. 20 1061 (1986). From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 19:18:27 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:18:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] a short-sighted look at the future Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040911141731.01ad5798@pop-server.satx.rr.com> ...by the alleged supreme fictional extrapolators: http://www.locusmag.com/2004/Features/09_ShirleySocialFuture.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 19:40:50 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <016401c49807$f1f784e0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040911194050.18290.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Patrick wrote: > > > Really what do individual predictions show? Its hard to predict the > > > future. Some people make optimistic predictions and some make > > pessimistic predictions. Many optimistic predictions don't work out > > > either. A lot of people are still waiting for Christ to return. The > > > question is whether Extropians will be waiting for their own > personal > > saviour for another 2000 years. > > Yep. People laughed at Christopher Collumbus but they also laughed > at Bozo the clown. > > Predictions are really beside the point. Projections and plans on the > other may be weighted and critiqued and sometimes falsified. I hereby predict that the inaccuracy of predictions will continue to expand at exponential rates.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 20:20:07 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:20:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> Are you talking of the current/proposed techniques or of the concept itself? I would find it difficult to believe that no possible technique can restore a deceased patient to life. You are right, I think, that there are no sacred cows. Rather, if it works it works, if it does not work we have to go back to the drawing board. G. On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote:> But it is possible that cryonics will never work. This is essentially > my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking > a close look at the arguments made in its favour). It is also possible that > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > > Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an essential article of faith to > extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, if that one does > not believe in cryonics? > > I thought you would have said yes once, that it turns on the evidence > and on how one examines propositions and beliefs. That extropians > have no sacred cow beliefs including cryonics. > > Am I wrong? > > Brett Paatsch From megao at sasktel.net Sat Sep 11 20:13:14 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern world VS JW's Message-ID: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has to evolve. Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. MFJ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian at doitnow.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:34:39 +0200 Size: 4566 URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 21:24:24 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040911003715774c60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040911212424.47214.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > > Mike and a "sex and the city" pseudo feminist? Lol! If I could > introduce you Mike, I would! Thanks. I don't mind real feminists, or even pseudofeminists, so long as they have a sense of humor about it. It's the matri-talitarians I have difficulty with. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 23:56:13 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:56:13 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog]Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040911164405.78548.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01fa01c4985a$ebac9050$ec202dcb@homepc> Adrian Tymes write: > --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > > Perhaps folk like Kass, Fukutyama and an assortment > > of > > professional opinionists are actually in a symbiotic > > relationship with > > transhumanists. Sort of like the media is in a > > symbiotic relationship > > with politicians. > > I'd say the opioninists are more like parasites than > symbiots. Politicians provide fodder to the media, > who in turn provide exposure to the politicians. What > unquestionably good/useful thing do opinionists > provide to us? We already get exposure just by > ourselves. I think the amount of publicity is greater because of the opinionists and the sort of criticism that is levelled when it is just ranty can cause people who feel targetted to bind together and when there is substance in it it can cause reflection and refinement of ideas. The question what is an extropian is not really clear cut. Is it someone who agrees with the Extropian Principles (some of these can be in tension with each other), is it someone who says they are, or is it someone who likes the company of people who post to the list? Are there in effect some core beliefs as distinct from values even if these are not formally prescribed? What are the core values, are they changeing? If it is easy to parody extropians as cultists - why would that be? Have things that used to seem neither clearly provable or falsifiable become clearer with the advancement of science such that it is no longer open mindedness but ignorance to continue to suspend disbelief - These questions and others are I think are questions worth considering from time to time. A lot of folk that post to this list have stated on list that they are not extropians (including Natasha ! ) yet those who read a list are likely to be assumed to be extropians by association. One can like extropians without agreeing with much of what some of them write on a chat list. I like extropians. Yet I would not call myself an extropian. Whether I would correct someone who clearly assumed that I was would depend in part on how uncomfortable I felt about being associated with what their view of an extropian was. > Contrast this to how things would be if > we weren't there: they would have to find something > else to write irate articles about. Yep. Brett From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 12 01:47:32 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:47:32 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000, Brett Paatsch > ... But it is possible that cryonics > will never work. This is essentially > > my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking > > a close look at the arguments made in its favour). > Are you talking of the current/proposed techniques or of the concept > itself? I would find it difficult to believe that no possible > technique can restore a deceased patient to life. You are right, I > think, that there are no sacred cows. Rather, if it works it works, if > it does not work we have to go back to the drawing board. I think I've read what I understand to be about the best most current proposed techniques and discussions on cryonics. I've read Merkle's paper on the Molecular Repair of the Brain (I'm not a fan of that one), Max More's thesis (or part of it), the Alcor documentation from the mid 1990s, the Suda papers and I still subscribe to the cryonet list. I read that stuff because on first impression I found the possibility of cryonics appealing and not obviously implausible. I thought that if on serious consideration a sceptic like me could come to think that cryonics would work for me, then I could probably sell it to other people. I thought I might have the skills to become the Australian franchise holder of whatever was the best of the US cryo companies at some point in the futue. I thought I would know how to build cryonics as a business. I am confident enough of my ability to judge what will and won't work that if I was really convinced that if cryonics was a viable solution for me, then I could persuade others that it would also be a solution for them. To answer your question I now think that cryonics will never work for me, not just with proposed current techniques but with any possible future techniques that might be conceivable recognizable as cryonics and carried out within the laws of physics. This does not mean that I believe in souls or spirits I don't. I am a materialist. I just think that I am a material thing that is biological and has grown. I am made up of atoms sure but far more relevantly to what makes me me I am made up of cells. I don't think that any cryonics procedure can disassemble me to the cellular level and put me back together again. I think I would be destroyed in the wholesale disassembly process and that the wholesale disassembly process cannot be gotten around because at the time the cryonics "freezing" processs is initiated I would have been composed of inorganic highly perishable cells. And cells aren't structured in efficiently evolved biological organisms so as to leave service lanes for nanobots (on the contrary the brain is protected by a blood brain barrier precisely to reduce the opportunity for entry disease). Evolution didn't design my brain to rebuilt it, it gave it some capacity for repair and adaption but ultimately evolution will be perfectly happy to start again and grow another. The me bit encoded in my brain is entirely expendable from evolutions standpoint. I don't accept the information theoretic criteria of death. I think the information theoretic criteria of death is a hurdle that is chosen specifically because IT savvy folk feel confident that it could be jumped over. I don't think the information theoretic criteria of death has any other applications other than to satisfy an understandable yearning (I'd like to avoid dying too) to avoid dying. If the information theoretic critera was valid rather than just a rationalisation it would hold some value not just at the end of life but at the start of it. DNA is information but it is not life. A recipe is not a cake. I think the unit of life is the cell. In short I think cryonicists believe in cryonics for similar reasons that christians believe in the resurrection - they want to live and they can't clearly see that it is impossible (that don't see that any irrevocable scientific laws are broken or that they cannot be gotten around) so they continue to hope for what might work without knowing exactly how. I can relate to the wanting to hope but I can't pull of belief in cryonics with intellectual integrity any better than I can pull of belief in reincarnation or the resurrection. Yet being human and mortal cryonics was a subject that I felt compelled to explore. I could not just keep an open mind on it and not explore it, that would have been to have shortchanged myself a great opportunity for both survival and perhaps a very successful business had it been possible. Now that I have reached a conclusion on cryonics I feel in much the same way towards transhumanists that still think it will work and still suspend disbelief to hold hope as I once felt towards friends and family that remained religious when I grew out of it. I like them. I respect them when they argue sensibly and I don't put much stock in their beliefs but am interested in their values. Its the cryonics thing that makes transhumanist and extropes look a bit cultish and so easy to parody in my opinion. And I have seen embryonics stem cell scientists differentiate their work in front of public audiences by pointing at the Raelians as the irresponsible unbelievable face of cloning but I've also seen them talk of cryonics in the same way. Cryonics as a meme is out there - the meme has been given a fair shake by some pretty persistent and impassioned advocates over quite a period of time. And I'm glad that it has been. But scientists and the public know about it. Scientists as a class are not indifferent to means of prolonging or extending their own surivival. Those that are not signing up are not all not signing up because they are ignorant some of them, like me, are not going for it because they are confident that it cannot work. And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but from an understanding of biology. When I see those who support cryonics lobbying for it, I don't oppose them, the libertarian in me thinks that people should be able to do whatever they like so long as it harms no one else, and championing an idea like cryonics may actually bring a sector of the public to a sort of interest in science and technology that otherwise might not be motivated to learn something about it. And I would have not accepted other people advice had they told me not to explore the possibility of something like cryonics if it seemed useful for me to do so. But if something isn't true there eventually will be harmful ramifications if a lot of people believing it, because a lot of believers can constitute a entropic political force. Perhaps through much of human history it has been the religious visionaries driven by personal need that have blazed the fuzzy trails that scientists came along to later to apply harsher standards but more slowly too. If cryonics is a central article of faith to most transhumanists and I don't think it necessarily is to all of them (but there don't seem to be many that have ruled it out) then I guess I'd regard transhumanism as a sort of latter day religion. Perhaps a successor or variant on christianity where the preserve-hope-for-the-future function of the resurrection myth is replaced by a less obviously unscientific one. Brett Paatsch From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 12 03:51:55 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:51:55 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <20040911194050.18290.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024701c4987b$d8aef300$ec202dcb@homepc> Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Yep. People laughed at Christopher Collumbus but they also laughed > > at Bozo the clown. > > > > Predictions are really beside the point. Projections and plans on the > > other may be weighted and critiqued and sometimes falsified. > > I hereby predict that the inaccuracy of predictions will continue to > expand at exponential rates.... Due to scale changes in the predictions or to increased 'density' of the underlying 'media' ? Move over Moore's Law.... Lorrey's Law is truckin' through :-) Brett From rafal at smigrodzki.org Sun Sep 12 04:58:42 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:58:42 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> Brett Paatsch wrote: >This does not mean that I believe in souls or spirits I don't. I am a >materialist. >I just think that I am a material thing that is biological and has grown. I >am >made up of atoms sure but far more relevantly to what makes me me I am >made up of cells. I don't think that any cryonics procedure can disassemble >me to the cellular level and put me back together again. I think I would be >destroyed in the wholesale disassembly process and that the wholesale >disassembly process cannot be gotten around because at the time the >cryonics "freezing" processs is initiated I would have been composed of >inorganic highly perishable cells. And cells aren't structured in >efficiently >evolved biological organisms so as to leave service lanes for nanobots >(on the contrary the brain is protected by a blood brain barrier precisely >to reduce the opportunity for entry disease). Evolution didn't design my >brain to rebuilt it, it gave it some capacity for repair and adaption but >ultimately >evolution will be perfectly happy to start again and grow another. The me >bit encoded in my brain is entirely expendable from evolutions standpoint. > >I don't accept the information theoretic criteria of death. I think the >information >theoretic criteria of death is a hurdle that is chosen specifically because >IT >savvy folk feel confident that it could be jumped over. I don't think the >information >theoretic criteria of death has any other applications other than to satisfy >an >understandable yearning (I'd like to avoid dying too) to avoid dying. > > > ### Ah, the old identity thread again! Let's pound this nail even deeper! Do you think that your concept of personal identity (about cells, blood brain barriers, etc.) is the only correct one (leaving all others to be mere rationalizations, if not insane mutterings), or maybe there are many possible concepts, which may be chosen, or believed in without automatically consigning the believer to the ranks of the hopelessly misguided morons? In the latter case, identity would be a matter of taste, discussed and politely disagreed on, but not an obstacle to mutually respectful relationships. In the former case, having a certain type of identity belief could put a person in the same category as the Raelians and Rastafarians, which does limit the range of interactions possible. -------------------------------- > I can relate to the wanting to hope but >I can't pull of belief in cryonics with intellectual integrity any better >than I can >pull of belief in reincarnation or the resurrection. > ### Well, there is a difference between the information-theoretic (IT) concept of identity, and the belief in resurrection by supernatural means. We IT's do not postulate the occurrence of any extraphysical events which rely for confirmation on stories written by bearded half-literate peasants two thousand years ago. The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain physically feasible states of the world (future world states which contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, or by means of information transfer. The only difference between you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a belief about material facts. A question of value, not fact. ------------------------------------------- >Now that I have reached a conclusion on cryonics I feel in much the same way >towards transhumanists that still think it will work and still suspend >disbelief to >hold hope as I once felt towards friends and family that remained religious >when >I grew out of it. I like them. I respect them when they argue sensibly and I >don't >put much stock in their beliefs but am interested in their values. Its the >cryonics >thing that makes transhumanist and extropes look a bit cultish and so easy >to >parody in my opinion. > > ### Remember, religious people make scientifically unsupported statements about facts, which leads them to bizarre beliefs about values. This is much different from cryonicists, who rely strictly on science for facts, and fit their values accordingly. -------------------------------- >And I have seen embryonics stem cell scientists differentiate their work in >front >of public audiences by pointing at the Raelians as the irresponsible >unbelievable >face of cloning but I've also seen them talk of cryonics in the same way. > >Cryonics as a meme is out there - the meme has been given a fair shake by >some >pretty persistent and impassioned advocates over quite a period of time. And >I'm >glad that it has been. But scientists and the public know about it. >Scientists as a >class are not indifferent to means of prolonging or extending their own >surivival. >Those that are not signing up are not all not signing up because they are >ignorant >some of them, like me, are not going for it because they are confident that >it >cannot work. And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but >from an understanding of biology. > > ### As a practicing scientist (molecular neuroscientist) I can assure you that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics comes purely from ignorance. If you disagree, point out a single scientific, biological argument for why cryonics cannot work, and you could score a convert to your attitude. Rafal From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 05:48:59 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:48:59 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern world VS JW's In-Reply-To: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> References: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has > to evolve. > Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world > view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. > > I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the > ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry > for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved > faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend > persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary > fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons > with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who > seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. > > This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. > > MFJ From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 12 08:42:07 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:42:07 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > >This does not mean that I believe in souls or spirits I don't. > >I am a materialist. I just think that I am a material thing that > > is biological and has grown. I am made up of atoms sure > > but far more relevantly to what makes me me I am made > > up of cells. I don't think that any cryonics procedure can > > disassemble me to the cellular level and put me back > > together again. I think I would be destroyed in the wholesale > > disassembly process and that the wholesale disassembly > > process cannot be gotten around because at the time the > > cryonics "freezing" process is initiated I would have been > > composed of organic highly perishable cells. And cells > > aren't structured in efficiently evolved biological organisms > > so as to leave service lanes for nanobots (on the contrary > > the brain is protected by a blood brain barrier precisely > > to reduce the opportunity for entry disease). Evolution > > didn't design my brain to rebuilt it, it gave it some capacity > > for repair and adaption but ultimately evolution will be > > perfectly happy to start again and grow another. The me > > bit encoded in my brain is entirely expendable from > > evolutions standpoint. > > > >I don't accept the information theoretic criteria of death. > > I think the information theoretic criteria of death is a hurdle > > that is chosen specifically because IT savvy folk feel > > confident that it could be jumped over. I don't think the > > information theoretic criteria of death has any other > > applications other than to satisfy an understandable > > yearning (I'd like to avoid dying too) to avoid dying. > > > > > > > ### Ah, the old identity thread again! Let's pound this nail > even deeper! Hi Rafal. OK :-) > Do you think that your concept of personal identity (about > cells, blood brain barriers, etc.) is the only correct one > (leaving all others to be mere rationalizations, if not insane > mutterings), or maybe there are many possible concepts, > which may be chosen, or believed in without automatically > consigning the believer to the ranks of the hopelessly > misguided morons? I am not going to call you or anyone a hopelessly misguided moron just for disagreeing with me even if you ultimately do. I do think all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain. I think that it is a mistake to think that someone who is now a homo sapiens can be abstracted out of their cellular substate and yet somehow continue to exist as disembodied pattern and then to be re-instantiated again. I think that the self is lost in the process. I don't want or need to call people who I think are mistaken misguided morons. > In the latter case, identity would be a > matter of taste, discussed and politely disagreed on, but > not an obstacle to mutually respectful relationships. In the > former case, having a certain type of identity belief could > put a person in the same category as the Raelians and > Rastafarians, which does limit the range of interactions > possible. I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I don't present to myself as a pattern. > -------------------------------- > > > I can relate to the wanting to hope but I can't pull off belief in > > cryonics with intellectual integrity any better than I can pull > > off belief in reincarnation or the resurrection. > > > ### Well, there is a difference between the information-theoretic > (IT) concept of identity, and the belief in resurrection by > supernatural means. It doesn't seem that big a difference to me. In both cases the person thinks that they can survive somehow despite a comprehensive disassembly of the cellular substrate. I am my cellular substrate, I think you are yours. If you think you are not then I think you are mistaken. > We IT's do not postulate the occurrence of any extraphysical > events which rely for confirmation on stories written by bearded > half-literate peasants two thousand years ago. But you ITs do postulate that you can exist as disembodied information don't you? > The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain > physically feasible states of the world (future world states which > contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental > setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), > and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures > appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, > or by means of information transfer. The only difference between > you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain > only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a > belief about material facts. I think the difference between us is that you think that you can in some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to determine that pattern. > A question of value, not fact. That I exist as a biological being is a fact. That you do probably is also a fact. > ------------------------------------------- > > >Now that I have reached a conclusion on cryonics I feel in > > much the same way towards transhumanists that still think it > > will work and still suspend disbelief to hold hope as I once > > felt towards friends and family that remained religious when > >I grew out of it. I like them. I respect them when they argue > > sensibly and I don't put much stock in their beliefs but am > > interested in their values. Its the cryonics thing that makes > > transhumanist and extropes look a bit cultish and so easy > > to parody in my opinion. > > > > > ### Remember, religious people make scientifically > unsupported statements about facts, which leads them to > bizarre beliefs about values. This is much different from > cryonicists, who rely strictly on science for facts, and fit > their values accordingly. > -------------------------------- > > > >And I have seen embryonics stem cell scientists differentiate > > their work in front of public audiences by pointing at the > > Raelians as the irresponsible unbelievable face of cloning > >but I've also seen them talk of cryonics in the same way. > > > >Cryonics as a meme is out there - the meme has been given > > a fair shake by some pretty persistent and impassioned > > advocates over quite a period of time. And I'm glad that it > > has been. But scientists and the public know about it. > >Scientists as a class are not indifferent to means of > > prolonging or extending their own surivival. > >Those that are not signing up are not all not signing up > >because they are ignorant some of them, like me, are not > > going for it because they are confident that it cannot work. > > And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but > > from an understanding of biology. > > > > > ### As a practicing scientist (molecular neuroscientist) I can > assure you that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics > comes purely from ignorance. Thats not a very scientific thing to say. How could you possible know that all academic detractors views come purely form ignorance? How could you even be sure that you know who all the academic detractors are? > If you disagree, point out a single scientific, biological argument > for why cryonics cannot work, and you could score a convert to > your attitude. Raf there is no evidence anywhere ever that a homo sapiens can survive separate from the cellular substrate that makes up their brain. I'd like to discuss this in good faith with you because I think the subject matter warrants it. Its important. But I don't know that I can show you that cryonics won't work for *you* unless I know what the word cryonics means for *you*. It could be that you have a different understanding of it to others that I have read. It could even be that you have no precise notion of how it would work in practice at the level of capturing synaptic structural information. If you do have a precise notion of how it could work step by step then, if your notion is internally inconsistent I could possibly point that out to you. If its not internally inconsistent and its step by step - perhaps you'd have persuaded me. With religious notions definitions are slippery. The reason that things cannot be disproved is often because the believers can't or won't define what they believe in in the first place. Believing is powerful evolutionary mojo. The Christian church has been around for around 2000 years - a lot of empires don't last that long. It intend no insult when I say that I suspect that the propensity to believe make be at work amongst intelligent people causing them to think that cryonics might work and allowing them to overlook that they have no specific step by step process in mind that can be shown not to work. If you can't say what cryonics is for you, and outline a path at least as good as Ralph Merkle in his paper then it might be that I can't find an internal contradiction for you because your idea is not developed enough to be demonstrably wrong. I mean no insult by that. It just *may* be like trying to show someone that god can't exist because their concept is internally inconsistent and then finding out that their concept is not even static but keeps getting redefined even as you try to discuss it. It can end up that they are using a word and declaring a belief in something for which they have no particular cogent referent at all. I'd written a different response to this post but accidentally deleted it before posting. Sorry if the rewrite is sloppy. Cheers, Brett From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 09:14:11 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:14:11 +0200 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: Now this is an interesting thread! Thanks Brett and Rafal for bringing this up (again). The key question is, are you still you after [cryonics, uploading, merge with the Cosmic Self, ... whatever you like]. In a sense you are not the same person after getting a haircut: some matter is missing, you look different in the mirror so after a while your self-image is affected, etc. But of course you are the same person after getting a haircut. We can build a hierarchy of examples ranging from simple examples like this where the answer is clearly yes, to more complex examples. Are you still the same person after radical psychotherapy? Is the old (wo)man the same person as the teenager of 50 years ago? Are you still you after a radical change of worldview? Are you still you after waking up from sleep?... In a sense the answer is always no, in another sense it is always yes. To me this means that the border between self and not self has to be fuzzier than we think, and that in some sense we can choose on which side we want to be. So I choose to *be* still me after sleep, even if I may have had one of those dreams with a very deep psychloogical impact. I am not afraid to go to sleep because I know from experience that after waking up I will accept today's self as a continuation of yesterday's self. I think people will say the same after biologically successful revival from cryonic suspension, or after cybernetically successful uploading. G. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 23/04/2004 From michael at mbhubbard.com Sun Sep 12 13:51:30 2004 From: michael at mbhubbard.com (Michael B. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:51:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworld VS JW's In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <412453E700F6C07E@mta4.wss.scd.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 12:49 AM Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. [MBH] I think with the JWs its largely a matter technique. They would nt be opposed to living on earth with vastly increased lifespans, in fact, you can read certain passages in the bib as proof of the possibility. Their method of achieving those lifespans, though, would be decidedly low-tech, i.e., diet modification (within "biblical strictures"), use of herbal supplements, etc. Uploading or cybernetic/genetic enhancement would probably be viewed as debasing the body, though, and would be prohibited (at least in one sect. Availability said technologies would likely create yet another schism in the JW organization.) From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 13:45:46 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:45:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern worldVS JW's References: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4144530A.24EF45D8@sasktel.net> The way I hear it, they are very big on "god's kingdom on earth" with peace and accept the concept of lifespans like in "the days of the biblical garden of eden". They might view advanced technology as god's way of ruling the earth?? Religeon has always been ameable to re-interpretation in the strangest of ways. They might well accept a technological singularity as "divine:..... Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to > transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that > in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. > > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures > Inc. wrote: > > In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has > > to evolve. > > Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world > > view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. > > > > I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the > > ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry > > for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved > > faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend > > persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary > > fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons > > with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who > > seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. > > > > This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. > > > > MFJ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 13:57:07 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:57:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] Message-ID: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> Then, sophisticated engineered-plant-based biopharmaceuticals would be perfectly acceptable to them. What about human cell culture based medicines such as Scibiono's stem cell grown modified , anti cancer virus? Maybe the 140,000 "survivors brought up to heaven" could be interpreted by such groups as 140,000 novel transhuman species reaching out to populate the heavens. Seeding the concept of transhumanism in existing religeons might be a dangerous thought but given the concept of "group loyalty" most religeons hold, once established , it could certainly spread like wildfire? -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Michael B. Hubbard" Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworld VS JW's Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:51:30 -0500 Size: 3912 URL: From joe at barrera.org Sun Sep 12 16:39:31 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:39:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> References: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <41447BC3.2080204@barrera.org> Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > virus? Maybe the 140,000 "survivors brought up to heaven" could be > interpreted by such groups as 140,000 novel transhuman species Actually it's 144,000 :-) From benboc at lineone.net Sun Sep 12 21:07:04 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:07:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: A view on cryonics In-Reply-To: <200409121800.i8CI0C030161@tick.javien.com> References: <200409121800.i8CI0C030161@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4144BA78.5030801@lineone.net> Brett Paatsch wrote: "some of them, like me, are not going for it because they are confident that it cannot work. And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but from an understanding of biology." Lord Kelvin's belief (i think it was him) that the sun could only burn for 6000 years or so was based on his good understanding (for the time) of physics. He wasn't to know that the sun isn't actually made out of coal. The one thing that has struck me most forcibly about biology is how very little we know. I went to college over 20 years ago to do a biochemistry degree, and got some inkling of how ignorant we were then. I now feel, if anything, even more ignorant 20-odd years later; not because of what i have forgotten, but because of what i have learned since. I still say now what i used to say then, but with even more conviction: The more i learn, the more i realise just how little i've learned. Your pessimism regarding the feasibility of cryonics is understandable, but i don't think it is justified. We simply don't know enough to make that kind of decision at this point in time. Personally, i think cryonic suspension remains "the second worst thing that could happen". Please don't take this as a personal attack on your knowledge, or an insult, it's not, and it also applies to me and to everyone else, but your understanding of biology is miniscule. I think it was Einstein who said something about scratching about at the beach looking at the sand, when the great ocean of truth was just yards away. He was talking about physics, but it applies even more to biology. We're still just scratching the surface. OK, after reading more of that thread, maybe i'm getting the wrong end of the stick about your objection: "...you think that you can in some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to determine that pattern. " This is an interesting line of thought. What is a disembodied pattern? Can there be such a thing? It sounds a bit like the traditional christian concept of a soul. Clearly that concept is nonsense. Even if it could exist, 'the soul' couldn't possibly represent 'you' in any meaningful way. Why would evolution have come up with the most complex machine in the known universe, if it wasn't necessary to embody a mind? I don't see how a pattern can be disembodied. It must be embodied in something. The important thing, for a mind, is whether it is embodied in a static medium, as a 'recording', or in an active one, in which it can continue to process information, and, effectively, 'live'. The destruction of the cells you mention is happening all the time, anyway. Human bodies are like those clouds that hang around mountain tops. It looks like the same cloud from one minute to the next, but in fact it is composed of different water molecules all the time, as they flow into the low-pressure region, condense, then evaporate again as the wind carries them out of the cloud. The cloud IS the pattern. But it is not a disembodied pattern. It couldn't exist without the wind and the water molecules. We are the same, except vastly more complex. If you think that only a biological substrate can handle the complexity of the pattern of a human mind, that's another argument. Feel free to start it :-). "there is no evidence anywhere ever that a homo sapiens can survive separate from the cellular substrate that makes up their brain." Of course not. Not yet, there isn't. There was no evidence anywhere ever that homo sapiens could survive in the vacuum of space, or at the bottom of the sea, or that we could fly above the clouds, not until we did those things. The absence of proof that you can do something is not proof that you cannot do it. I would agree that a mind cannot exist without something to embody it, but not that that something has to be a biological brain (or even a cellular structure, but who says we couldn't make artificial cells, anyway?). Human bodies and brains *are machines* (do you deny this?). It's no more startling to expect that the mind could be implemented on a different machine than it is to expect that a digital watch can do the same job as a water clock (Of course, there's no denying that a digital watch requires a completely different level of technology to a water clock). ben From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Sep 12 21:24:35 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:24:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A view on cryonics Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040912162330.01bcd788@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:47 AM 9/12/2004 +1000, Brett wrote: >To answer your question I now think that cryonics will never work for >me, not just with proposed current techniques but with any possible future >techniques that might be conceivable recognizable as cryonics and carried >out within the laws of physics. I'm shocked! How can anyone doubt that cryonics can work, when we have here the photographic evidence to prove it! http://www.panterraweb.com/frozen%20gals.htm Damien Broderick From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 20:36:05 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:36:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for apost-modernworldVS JW's] References: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> <41447BC3.2080204@barrera.org> Message-ID: <4144B334.DFF111D4@sasktel.net> I knew that, just checking who else did... When I was about 20, a JW was trying to line me up with one of their daughters so I have been to a few of their gatherings... MFJ "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > > > virus? Maybe the 140,000 "survivors brought up to heaven" could be > > interpreted by such groups as 140,000 novel transhuman species > > Actually it's 144,000 :-) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 21:11:02 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:11:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Canuck's Incitement to kill Bush brings redcoats, brownshirts and white coats? Message-ID: <4144BB66.C1B75153@sasktel.net> Just having some fun with the internet security sniffer software......: Extropians might be regarded as people who think dangerous thoughts but none of us would ever want to kill Bush. Instead, we'd like to freeze him so that future societies can study his neural pathways and decrypt his thoughts. He'd just look so cute like a little Ken Doll in that dewar flask. We could clone him and create 20-30 copies just to see "A-La-Boys from Brazil" if they could, despite their less privaleged starts in life rise to become leaders in their own community or country. Then we'd all know if the Bush lineage is "nature or nurture". Whoa, better stop now or I might join the ranks of the fellow described below....: ************************************************** The Windsor Star Man charged with threatening Bush Star News Services Saturday, September 11, 2004 HALIFAX -- A man in Halifax has been charged with making death threats against U.S. President George W. Bush over the Internet. Timothy George Andrew, 28, has been remanded for a psychiatric assessment and is due back in court next week, the ATV news network reported Friday. Threats allegedly found on an Internet message board included: "Death to the president of the U.S.A. and destruction to that nation's Babylon" as well as "The president of the U.S.A. is king of terror" and "The president of the U.S.A. is going to be killed and will never stand again." RCMP said its investigation with the U.S. Secret Service started last October and ended late last month, resulting in charges of making threats and threatening Bush. ? The Windsor Star 2004 From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 23:12:07 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040912231207.15264.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > the same conclusion is also implied by Fukuyama > ...transhumanism as the most dangerous idea of our > times. > In other words: our opponents are SCARED I see it slightly differently. It's not that **they** are scared, but that they are fear-mongers, making their living scaring others, the mass-infotainment consumers, the little people. They do this by fishing around for a qualified bogeyman. Blacks, commies, homos, furriners, drug users,...whatever works. Fear: the mother's milk of political control. The pace of technological change and the incomprehensibility of matters scientific provoke feelings of helplessness and vulnerability in the little people, then follows fear and anger. The Fukuyama's of the world seek out and develop this resource, and then hire themselves out to the politicos who exploit it. Anyway, that's how I see it. YMMV. Best, Jeff Davis "The new always carries with it the sense of violation and sacrilege. What is dead is sacred. What is new, that is different, is evil, dangerous, or subversive." Henry Miller _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 03:31:23 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:31:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern world VS JW's In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> References: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091220311586963c@mail.gmail.com> For JW's (and other "Christian" sects as well) blood is a special case. There are biblical scriptures which support the proposition that "life is in the blood." Of course, from a purely biological viewpoint, life is in any organ necessary to keep an organism alive. It could just as rightly be said that life is in the brain, or life is in the heart, etc. But given the special significance given to blood in scripture (draining the blood from sacrificial animals, prohibitions against eating the blood of food animals, the theological significance ascribed to the shedding of "Christ's" blood on the cross, etc.), it is not surprising that JW's view the exchange of blood between persons to have extraordinarily vital significance. On the other hand, I have seen no scriptural basis for any JW objection to such "extropic" tech as brain implants or other artificial mental and/or physical enhancements so long, of course, as their is no contamination of the blood in the process. On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:48:59 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to > transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that > in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. > > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures > > > Inc. wrote: > > In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has > > to evolve. > > Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world > > view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. > > > > I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the > > ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry > > for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved > > faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend > > persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary > > fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons > > with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who > > seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. > > > > This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. > > > > MFJ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 03:43:22 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:43:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> References: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <7a3217050409122043507be915@mail.gmail.com> I think we'd be best off steering far clear from avowed irrationalists. I suppose I have become like so many ex-smokers who after having kicked the habit completely abhor it and those who still indulge. While I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that I abhor religious people, I can (and do) in good conscience profess that "the only good religion is a dead religion." Or as Stevie Wonder once put it: "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer, superstition ain't the way." http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/01E838D97B93BC78482569120002EB6B Zero On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:57:07 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > Seeding the concept of transhumanism in existing religeons might be a > dangerous > thought but given the concept of "group loyalty" most religeons hold, > once established , it could certainly spread like wildfire? From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 03:51:44 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:51:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Canuck's Incitement to kill Bush brings redcoats, brownshirts and white coats? In-Reply-To: <4144BB66.C1B75153@sasktel.net> References: <4144BB66.C1B75153@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <7a3217050409122051210f6164@mail.gmail.com> Like Ice T said: "Freedom Of Speech...Just Watch What You Say" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002LJF/ref=pd_luc_mri/104-9348565-3011937?v=glance&s=music&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st Zero On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:11:02 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > Just having some fun with the internet security sniffer software......: > > Extropians might be regarded as people who think dangerous thoughts but > none of us would ever want to kill Bush. Instead, we'd like to freeze > him so that future societies can study his neural pathways and decrypt > his thoughts. > He'd just look so cute like a little Ken Doll in that dewar flask. > We could clone him and create 20-30 copies just to see "A-La-Boys from > Brazil" > if they could, despite their less privaleged starts in life rise to > become leaders in their own community or country. > > Then we'd all know if the Bush lineage is "nature or nurture". > > Whoa, better stop now or I might join the ranks of the fellow described > below....: > ************************************************** > > The Windsor Star > > Man charged with threatening Bush > > Star News Services > > Saturday, September 11, 2004 > > HALIFAX -- A man in Halifax has been charged with making death > threats against U.S. President George W. Bush over the Internet. > > Timothy George Andrew, 28, has been remanded for a psychiatric > assessment and is due back in court next week, the ATV news > network reported Friday. > > Threats allegedly found on an Internet message board included: > "Death to the president of the U.S.A. and destruction to that > nation's > Babylon" as well as "The president of the U.S.A. is king of terror" > and > "The president of the U.S.A. is going to be killed and will never > stand > again." > > RCMP said its investigation with the U.S. Secret Service started last > > October and ended late last month, resulting in charges of making > threats and threatening Bush. > > ? The Windsor Star 2004 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From hal at finney.org Mon Sep 13 04:18:02 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) Message-ID: <20040913041802.79FE657E2B@finney.org> I always enjoy these discussions. Issues of identity are difficult, and as Brett's arguments point out, have actual relevance today for those of us who might be considering signing up for cryonics. To Brett I would ask, what is it about modern cryonics that makes you confident that you would not survive? More specifically, if there were a treatment which put cells into suspended animation but did less damage to them, would that be acceptable to you? In Engines, Drexler described a hypothetical nanotech based form of suspended animation. Nanomachines would enter cells and shut them down in a more or less orderly fashion. Large molecules would be tagged and attached to each other via sticky cross-links. Light molecules like water could be removed. The whole thing could then be reduced to low temperature so that chemical reactions would be effectively arrested. In one sense, this does terrible damage to the cell. Cells in this suspended state would have little resemblance to living, active cells. But in another sense, there is no actual damage, unlike modern day cryonics. Cells would no longer be ripped open and shredded to bits, having to be reconstructed from scratch. The actual molecules would remain in the cells where they were before, at least the large molecules. Water and other small molecules would be replaced, but they have a pretty high turnover rate in biological cells anyway. How would you evaluate this kind of treatment? What are the specific tests you would apply in any form of cellular transformation, to decide whether it would preserve your identity? Hal From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Sep 13 05:29:58 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:29:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <20040910154936.36042.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c49952$bc0c30a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> I hafta wonder if Dan "the Forger" Rather is about to hang himself with this kinda stuff going around on the web: 1972 Email Casts Doubt on Bush Guard Service CBS reporter Dan Rather today released the text of a recently discovered email from then-Lt. George W. Bush's Air National Guard commanding officer which casts more doubt upon the military service of the man who would become the 43rd President of the United States. The revelation of the email comes just hours after questions were raised about the authenticity of typewritten memos from the same officer, shown yesterday by Mr. Rather on 60 Minutes. According to the previously unseen email message sent in May 1972 by squadron commander Jerry Killian, Lt. Bush phoned Col. Killian because "his internet connection was on the fritz and he couldn't IM me." Lt. Bush apparently wanted to talk about "how he can get out of coming to drill from now through November." According to Col. Killian's email, the young Bush wanted to go to Alabama to work as webmaster for a Republican candidate's website. Mr. Rather said the authenticity of the 32-year-old email has been confirmed by several Nigerian officials who specialize in electronic funds transfer by email. From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 13 07:10:17 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:10:17 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc><4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <00b701c49960$e02a5f80$4cfe4d0c@hal2001> "Brett Paatsch" > I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of fact. Yes, but if something can remember being me then that thing is me, that's why I'm not terrified to go to sleep at night, I'm confident in the morning something will remember being me. > I am my cellular substrate, I think you are yours. Our fundamental disagreement is that you think of yourself as a noun, I think of myself as an adjective; I am the way matter reacts when it is organized in a johnkclarkian way. I don't see how it could be any other way, there is nothing special about my atoms, they are run of the mill, completely generic, and are in constant flux anyway. As for Cryonics, I don't know if it could work or not. If the freezing process is chaotic then recovering the original pattern is probably impractical, if it's not chaotic then there is a chance. One thing is certain, if you're frozen your chance of survival is better than if you're eaten by worms or burned up; and given that the jackpot is astronomically large it seems worth buying a ticket even if your odds of wining are small. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From starman2100 at cableone.net Mon Sep 13 08:38:14 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:38:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns Message-ID: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 09:41:48 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:41:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:38:14 -0700, starman2100 wrote: > I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the hospitality field) > and today scoured the net for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what > would be best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or maim an out of control person, > but simply repel/put them down with a minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. > > I would appreciate whatever pointers anyone might have for me. > Sounds like Aikido self-defence techniques would be suitable for you. But you need a bit more than just reading a book or watching a DVD! Remember that violent people are usually *experienced* violent people. It is their way of life, not just a theoretical interest. You will need actual physical training to get your body to do what you want it to do. You should be able to find classes near you in Arizona. News article: "I wondered how I could defend myself and not hurt someone. I fell into Aikido," Nappier said. "I can't attack you with Aikido. I can't chop you. It's not like karate," said Nappier. "The ultimate goal is to be able to defend yourself, where no one is harmed - either the attacker or the victim." Best wishes, BillK From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Sep 13 13:16:34 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:16:34 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <000d01c49993$e79c7810$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > starman2100 at cableone.net > > What I find so strange is the person who viciously > assaulted me is a very intelligent, educated, successful and > respected member of the local community, but I realize > physically abusive people come from every socio-economic level... > > John > www.venturist.org > www.creeksidepreserve.com So sue him beyond recognition. You needn't worry about people who have money, they won't hurt you. Its those who are judgement proof that worry me. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 14:35:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409122043507be915@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Those who convince themselves that religion and the religious are purely or to a person irrational are themselves reaching irrational and unsupported conclusions. Your atheism is as much an irrational religion as the faith you left. There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do so. --- Zero Powers wrote: > I think we'd be best off steering far clear from avowed > irrationalists. I suppose I have become like so many ex-smokers who > after having kicked the habit completely abhor it and those who still > indulge. While I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that I > abhor religious people, I can (and do) in good conscience profess > that > "the only good religion is a dead religion." > > Or as Stevie Wonder once put it: "When you believe in things that you > don't understand, then you suffer, superstition ain't the way." > > http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/01E838D97B93BC78482569120002EB6B > > Zero > > On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:57:07 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures > Inc. wrote: > > > Seeding the concept of transhumanism in existing religeons might be > a > > dangerous > > thought but given the concept of "group loyalty" most religeons > hold, > > once established , it could certainly spread like wildfire? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 14:44:23 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in > the hospitality field) and today scoured the net > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be > best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a > minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. Okay, lets make this clear: if you feel your life is threatened, yet you are not willing to go the extreme of maiming or even killing your assailant, your only option really is running around in circles and screaming at the top of your lungs while you wait to die or be victimized. Self defense rests primarily on your ability to communicate to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if the assailant pushes things, that you are not willing to be victimized to any degree. If your assailant is significantly more massive than you, AND has martial arts training, you need a weapon and you need to know how to use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to carry it, along with a firearms self defense course. Unless you are willing to use it, though, you might as well not even try. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Sep 13 14:49:56 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:49:56 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns Message-ID: <124020-22004911314495692@M2W054.mail2web.com> John wrote: "I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the hospitality field) and today scoured the net for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a minimum of harm done if I have no other choice." John, my suggestion is to press charges, now. Please do not be intimidated. There are many types of aggressor/victim relationships and they are not all between a man assaulting his partner or a woman assaulting her partner, or parents assaulting their children. If you play victim in this "relationship" then you may fall into the category of a person allowing this to happen because you are shamed, scared or eventually in denial that it ever happened. No one has the right to physically attack you and you do have a responsibility to yourself to protect yourself from any further attacks. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 15:18:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] STATS: Proof of media bias... Message-ID: <20040913151819.19223.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/business/yourmoney/12view.html?ex=1095652800&en=662be44cd0308d8f&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1 Study proves media bias. The study: http://www.aei.org/docLib/20040913_588453%5B1%5D.pdf ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From kpj at sics.se Mon Sep 13 16:18:22 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:18:22 +0200 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: Message from "John K Clark" of "Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:10:17 EDT." <00b701c49960$e02a5f80$4cfe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <200409131618.i8DGIMi11572@r2d2.sics.se> It appears as if John K Clark wrote: | |Yes, but if something can remember being me then that thing is me, that's |why I'm not terrified to go to sleep at night, I'm confident in the morning |something will remember being me. If someone copies your memories, edits them to serve some purpose, and makes a simulacrum of you, an android if you will, with those memories, will it "be" you? If you subscribe to the "I am my pattern." it is. If you subscribe to the "I am my subtrate." it is not. |Our fundamental disagreement is that you think of yourself as a noun, I |think of myself as an adjective; I am the way matter reacts when it is |organized in a johnkclarkian way. I don't see how it could be any other way, |there is nothing special about my atoms, they are run of the mill, |completely generic, and are in constant flux anyway. Questions, questions... 1. I think of myself as a verb - what am I? 2. How much of the johnclarkian pattern must be changed for it not to be a John Clark unit? From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 16:33:06 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:33:06 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > Self defense rests primarily on your ability to communicate > to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if the assailant > pushes things, that you are not willing to be victimized to any degree. > > If your assailant is significantly more massive than you, AND has > martial arts training, you need a weapon and you need to know how to > use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to carry it, along > with a firearms self defense course. Unless you are willing to use it, > though, you might as well not even try. > LOL :) Yup, if you dress in fatigues, wear a flak jacket, carry an AK47, with plenty of spare ammunition boxes hanging around, then I guess you will communicate something to the people around you. BillK From kpj at sics.se Mon Sep 13 16:33:49 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:33:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: Message from Mike Lorrey of "Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:35:10 PDT." <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409131633.i8DGXnN11621@r2d2.sics.se> It appears as if Mike Lorrey wrote: | |There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily |lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and |unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level |of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do |so. What kind of "religious" did you have in mind? In what way does the "spiritual" people differ from people who believe in e.g. small green men from Mars or Santa Claus? Both apparently believe in something without having any hard data supporting their reality models. I have noticed that beliefs held for a long time ("tradition") are often held in reverence. Why is that? As to the "X is rational, but believes in Y": I know people who are very rational who become total lunatics when somebody pushes their button, be it a religion or some politic/quasi-philosophic belief system like racism. Personally, I find such people rather hard to communicate with as you always have to make sure you don't start a jihad reaction in them. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 16:45:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <200409131618.i8DGIMi11572@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040913164502.30522.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- KPJ wrote: > It appears as if John K Clark wrote: > | > |Yes, but if something can remember being me then that thing is me, > that's > |why I'm not terrified to go to sleep at night, I'm confident in the > morning > |something will remember being me. > > If someone copies your memories, edits them to serve some purpose, > and makes a simulacrum of you, an android if you will, with those > memories, will it "be" you? > > If you subscribe to the "I am my pattern." it is. > If you subscribe to the "I am my subtrate." it is not. In the legal world, a document sent via fax (not printed on thermal paper) is considered a 'true copy', not a 'true original'. The pattern may be identical for all practical purposes, but it is still just a copy of the original. Semantic games about waking up in the morning are bogus. Only a fool would use such as a parallel, because everyone knows that you go to sleep, and you can be observed through the night, and wake up still you in the morning, the true original. > > |Our fundamental disagreement is that you think of yourself as a > noun, I > |think of myself as an adjective; I am the way matter reacts when it > is > |organized in a johnkclarkian way. I don't see how it could be any > other way, > |there is nothing special about my atoms, they are run of the mill, > |completely generic, and are in constant flux anyway. > > Questions, questions... > > 1. I think of myself as a verb - what am I? You are a meat puppet predending to be a person, as far as I can see, who spins entertaining stories about identity in order sow FUD among the real people... > > 2. How much of the johnclarkian pattern must be changed for it not to > be a John Clark unit? To have a memory of being one whose intent was to assume the identity of the John Clark unit and kill the original. For those who haven't been watching SciFi channel lately, I suggest you get yourself a copy of the Gary Senise movie "Impostor". ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Sep 13 16:47:27 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040913164727.82763.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > > I was just recently physically assaulted in my > workplace (I work in > > the hospitality field) and today scoured the net > > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not > sure what would be > > best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > > maim an out of control person, but simply > repel/put them down with a > > minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. > > Okay, lets make this clear: if you feel your life is > threatened, yet > you are not willing to go the extreme of maiming or > even killing your > assailant, your only option really is running around > in circles and > screaming at the top of your lungs while you wait to > die or be > victimized. Incorrect. > Self defense rests primarily on your > ability to communicate > to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if > the assailant > pushes things, that you are not willing to be > victimized to any degree. Correct, but it does not necessarily imply the former, in the context that starman was using. It may be necessary to maim or kill - but that does not mean one must start off with that as its aim as a first resort. Indeed, it is quite possible to defend oneself in many fights without ever inflicting serious injury - especially if one focuses on the communication, rather than the proof. ("Bluff", except that you can back it up enough that a would-be assailant will believe the rest.) > If your assailant is significantly more massive than > you, AND has > martial arts training, you need a weapon and you > need to know how to > use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to > carry it, along > with a firearms self defense course. I have stopped opponents significantly more massive than myself who had martial arts training, while I myself was armed only with my hands. A gun is not necessary; a focus on your objective is. (But then, know that most people with martial arts training will also have the sense not to use it for anti-social purposes; intoxicants like alcohol may temporarily remove this sense, but they will also practically temporarily remove the training. Most people who make trouble are untrained brawlers. There are exceptions, but these are so rare they can be ignored in practice except for the highest security situations.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 16:55:42 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <200409131633.i8DGXnN11621@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040913165542.1357.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- KPJ wrote: > It appears as if Mike Lorrey wrote: > | > |There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their > daily > |lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and > |unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that > level > |of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to > do > |so. > > What kind of "religious" did you have in mind? Well, there are plenty of people who are entirely scientific in their daily lives, who look at documents like the Bible, etc as historical and often metaphorical documents and histories of man's spiritual development, but not literally true in every fact or assertion. Such people can also wrap their minds around the idea that there are things beyond the ability of physics to explain, or beyond our ability to observe, test, and experiment with. Even much of physics theories are just that, theory, and cannot and likely will not be tested for quite a while because they would essentially require some rather high risk macro-scale engineering. Because of this, those who believe in M theory are no LESS religious than many Jesuit priests. Those who believe that the Simulation Argument is likely true are evincing belief in what is merely a modern articulation of a creator myth. > > In what way does the "spiritual" people differ from people who > believe in e.g. small green men from Mars or Santa Claus? Both > apparently believe in something without having any hard data > supporting their reality models. As do astrophysics theoriests. I seem to recall a talk by Stephen Hawking a few years ago where he said that virtually anything can come out of a black hole, and made reference to some mythical creatures and characters.... > > Personally, I find such people rather hard to communicate with as you > always have to make sure you don't start a jihad reaction in them. Once again, you are improperly and without evidence (how very unscientific of you) assigning the stereotype of fanatic upon all people of religious faith, which is wrong. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 13 19:12:26 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:12:26 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <200409131618.i8DGIMi11572@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <004b01c499c5$a3741f80$9dff4d0c@hal2001> "KPJ" Wrote: > If someone copies your memories, edits them to serve > some purpose, and makes a simulacrum of you, > an android if you will, with those memories, will it "be" you? Depends on how extensive the editing is and I don?t believe survival is an all or nothing matter. > I think of myself as a verb - what am I? You are wrong. Your pattern causes your actions not the other way round. > How much of the johnclarkian pattern must be changed for it > not to be a John Clark unit? 42 John K Clark jonkc at att.net From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 13 20:00:40 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:00:40 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040913164502.30522.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a401c499cc$67e670b0$9dff4d0c@hal2001> "Mike Lorrey" > In the legal world, a document sent via fax (not printed > on thermal paper) is considered a 'true copy', not a 'true original'. If there is one thing in the universe you can be absolutely certain of it is that you will not find philosophical enlightenment from lawyers. > everyone knows that you go to sleep, and you can be > observed through the night, and wake up still you in the > morning, the true original. But not everything has been continuous during the night, not the very most important thing in fact. We know from first hand experience that our consciousness undergoes a radical change when we sleep, sometimes stopping completely for hours at a time. > I suggest you get yourself a copy of the Gary Senise movie "Impostor". A COPY of the movie? No no no, that won't do at all, I want to see the one true original movie! If I haven't convinced you that I'm right it's because you just saw a copy of my message, a pale imitation of the glorious one true original Email; it would have had you eating out of my hand. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From sentience at pobox.com Mon Sep 13 20:05:07 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > Those who convince themselves that religion and the religious are > purely or to a person irrational are themselves reaching irrational and > unsupported conclusions. Your atheism is as much an irrational religion > as the faith you left. > > There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily > lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and > unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level > of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do > so. Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. Once upon a time the stars were mysteries, life was mysterious, matter was mysterious, unexplained and unexplainable. But, once again, a blank spot on the map is not a blank spot on the territory. There are mysterious questions, never mysterious answers. People have no sense of history, no sense of how reasonable past errors seemed *at the time*. If only I had *personally* postulated astrological mysteries and discovered Newtonian gravitation, *personally* postulated alchemical mysteries and discovered chemistry, *personally* postulated vitalistic mysteries and discovered biology. I would have invented a mysterious explanation for consciousness and thought to myself, "No way am I falling for that again." People don't assign history the same weight as personal experience, even if the universe repeats the lesson over and over and over. There are human stories told around a campfire, full of mighty heroes and passionate gods and comforting resolutions; and there are the stories the universe whispers to itself, strange dreams of physics equations, an unbelievable style of storytelling in which things are explained by maths instead of morals. It seems to me that the human style of storytelling - you know, the one that just plain doesn't work - is what people call "religious" or "spiritual". It takes a mature rationalist indeed to live in the universe the Way it really is, one coherent unified mathematical process with not a single shred of human-style storytelling ("spirituality") in it. It may seem harsh - ungracious - for rationalists to demand so complete a triumph, to leave not a single shred of consolation for spiritualists; but the truth is not a compromise between political factions. This is the way the universe has always been. The rationalists did not invent this answer, only prove themselves mature enough to accept it. Bayes' Theorem plus a Kolmogorov distribution over prior probabilities is complete. It assigns a probability to everything. The probability it assigns to complex unsupported hypotheses is extremely low. And this coincides with humanity's experience, that when you have a blank area on the map you cannot just draw in whatever you like and magically get it right, even if, at the time, no one can "prove" you wrong. No one can "prove" you won't win the lottery, in the sense of presenting contradictory evidence, but the prior probability assigned by probability theory is infinitesimal. Probability theory is vastly more powerful than people clutching their imaginary maps would like to believe, and if you are the tiniest bit more confident in an unsupported complex hypthesis than the infinitesimal token probability the math calls for, you have departed the way of rationality. Religion and the religious are irrational, in the sense that they assign higher confidence to certain propositions than probability theory calls for. Ignorance of the math is, in some ways, an excuse - it means that at least some spiritual people have not knowingly turned against the truth, they honestly believe that it's okay to draw in whatever they like on blank areas of the map. But that doesn't change the math, and so they're still irrational. There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on with your lives, knowing that you alone are in charge. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 20:18:37 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <00a401c499cc$67e670b0$9dff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20040913201837.30294.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > "Mike Lorrey" > > > In the legal world, a document sent via fax (not printed > > on thermal paper) is considered a 'true copy', not a 'true > original'. > > If there is one thing in the universe you can be absolutely certain > of it is that you will not find philosophical enlightenment from > lawyers. Yeah, that US Constitution was a waste of time.... > > > everyone knows that you go to sleep, and you can be > > observed through the night, and wake up still you in the > > morning, the true original. > > But not everything has been continuous during the night, not the very > most > important thing in fact. We know from first hand experience that our > consciousness undergoes a radical change when we sleep, sometimes > stopping completely for hours at a time. Personal computers scan and defragment their hard drives and root out viruses at night sometimes. This can cause a radical change in the sequence of information on that hard drive. They don't stop being the same PC. Similarly, your conciousness undergoes a radical change when it is on drugs. You don't stop being the same person when you are high, you are just being more stupid than usual. Now, you might suppose that what if we each got our minds backed up somewhere at night, our brains were totally wiped clean, then the backup was reloaded onto our now clean brains. In this hypothetical scenario, you and the backup copy of you stopped being the same person one instantiation of thought after the backup finished. The rest of the world, and the backup copy might be convinced that they are reasonable facsimiles of you, but the you that developed in the time between the backup finishing, and the start of the erasing, is now dead. The more time that passes between these two events, the more significant that fact is. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hibbert at mydruthers.com Mon Sep 13 21:15:20 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:15:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <41460DE8.30502@mydruthers.com> Eliezer wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to > learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must > commit to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours > a day seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for > relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where > that darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over > the things you want to believe. This seems like hyperbole to me. Perhaps it is intended as hyperbole. Certainly in the rest of his post, Eliezer focused on your beliefs on which you take action. But here, he seems to be saying that there is no rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking about and acting on the truth. The part that seems hyperbolic is that this eschews time for relaxation, time for fiction, time for art. One of the ways that I entertain myself is reading science fiction and occasionally fantasy. I can't defend them as a search for what's real, or an exploration of deeper truths. Occasionally that's what I find, but the goal is time off from the hard work that Eliezer advocates we spend all our (waking) time on. I think he's overstating the case, and the time away from what's real seemed to be at least part of what Mike Lorrey was pointing at. > Mike Lorrey wrote: >> There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their >> daily lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and >> unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that >> level of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were >> able to do so. I am not an advocate of "mature spirituality", but if Mike means this practice is a species of relaxation, or "renewing one's energy", then I don't seem the harm as long as it doesn't effect the practitioners' actions or expectations about how the world works. But when it bleeds over into a belief that when an egg and a sperm touch each other something magic happens, that's stepping over the line. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu Mon Sep 13 21:28:24 2004 From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:28:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Tribute (?) - The Way It Should Have Been Message-ID: <414610F8.2D9F185@Genius.UCSD.edu> [JM: great little piece here, sorry I couldn't send it out a couple of days ago. Enjoy :-)] ==================================================== The Way It Should Have Been, by Bob Wallace, June 17, 2004 Hijacker: This is a hijacking! I have a boxcutter! Grandma: I have a .45! Now reach for the sky, or I'll put a hole in that diaper-hat on top of your pointy little head! Hijacker: What?! I did not know Americans were allowed to carry handguns on airplanes! I thought the liberals took away your firearms and your gonads! Grandma: What alternate universe do you live in? This is America, land of the free and home of the brave! And the armed! Bureaucrat: Everyone put away your handguns and surrender! Do what they tell you! There won't be any trouble if you just act like sheep! Grandma: Shut up you, you worthless idjit! (Smacks bureaucrat on top of his head, which causes him to cry like a girl.) Anyone who listens to anything said by anyone from the government deserves exactly what they get! Hijacker: Surrender! We are going to fly these planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the White House! Grandma: Bringing a knife to a gunfight, huh? Hijacker: My faith will protect me! Grandma: Oh yeah? (BLAM!) Hijacker: AIEEEE!! The 72 virgins await me! (Topples over, exits.) Other hijackers: Look! Everyone on the plane has handguns pointed at us! We surrender! Passengers: (chorus): Oh, really? Osama bin Laden: Dang. My plan to draw the US into a war so the entire Islamic world will hate them just fell apart! Now I'll have to find another way to get America to bleed itself dry of blood and treasure! Drats! My nefarious plans foiled! (Looks pensive.) But then, on the other hand, I'm not going to end up a pile of squashed bones under a mountain in Afghanistan! George Bush: Ah, shoot. Now I'll go down in history as a mediocre president who presided over a miniscule tax cut and some minor deregulation. (Looks pensive.) Well, I guess that's better than being known as a stumble-tongued fool who fell into Osama bin Laden's trap and started World War III! Neocons: Dang! Our insane leftist plans to conquer the Middle East just went up in smoke! (Looks pensive.) On the other hand, at least we're not going to be exposed as the deluded, traitorous, crackpot, chickenhawk armchair-general cowards that all of us really are! 800+ Americans: Yay! Now we don't have to die before our time in a worthless effort to impose our values and way of life on people who don't want them! 1000+ Americans: Yay! Now I won't lose my eyes, arms, legs, brain and all kinds of body parts! 10,000+ Iraqis: Yay! Same with us! Father: Hi, honey! I'm home from my job at the World Trade Center! Wife: Thank goodness! A bunch of nuts tried to hijack four planes and fly them right into the building where you work! The passengers shot a bunch of them and the rest surrendered! Father: Wow! I might have been killed! Good thing those passengers were armed! Why, 3000 people could have been killed had the hijackers succeeded! Daughter: Daddy! You're home! Father: Yep, honey, safe and sound, thanks to the brave citizens of this wonderful country, who understand how utterly foolish and worthless the government really is. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right honey? (A reader sent in this "correction") Daughter: It sure is, daddy! Yay for the real America, and real Americans! Now can we please run over to the shooting range so I can get in my practice rounds with the rest of my Advanced Shooting Team? Please please please??? From rafal at smigrodzki.org Mon Sep 13 21:44:21 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:44:21 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> Brett Paatsch wrote: > >I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of >fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I >don't present to myself as a pattern. > > ### There are many categories of objects, whose identity is commonly interpreted in different ways: e.g. sculptures are treated as unique objects, but art prints can be produced in large series. Thus, for the art connoisseur, the copy of a famous sculpture is only a copy, but every print from the original artist's print series is an original. The identity of a bank account is defined by the routing and account numbers, not the physical location of the stored data. Thus, the concept of "identity" is in fact a whole slew of related but distinct concepts, with different properties and referents. I accept that your (Brett Paatch's) identity is what you say, since this is what is produced by the processes in your brain (and my meta-rule for such definitions is that they are produced by the brains in a self-referential manner) . It's a fact, albeit a fact pertaining only to Brett Paatsch. Now, my own, Rafal's identity is defined differently. It is also a fact. Although the definitions are different, they are not contradictory - they apply to different objects, just like the varied definitions of an "original" in the art world. Even though your definition of self is different from mine (not even analogous), I do not think you are mistaken - merely different. Do you see the point? I don't think you are mistaken, not mistaken about yourself, but you are mistaken where you believe me to be mistaken about myself. In other words, you are a universalist, believing that a single definition of self (your own) is the only correct one ("all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self....."), while I am a pluralist, letting everyone decide where their own (and only their own) identities lie. Thus, for me they are indeed a matter of taste, unless somebody with enough enforcing power decrees a single definition to apply to various persons. You can conceive of others being different in their thinking from you, and yet not mistaken, can't you? I find it to be a useful ability. ---------------------------------------- >But you ITs do postulate that you can exist as disembodied >information don't you? > ### What do you mean by "disembodied"? If you mean "not in a human body but in a different material substrate with sufficient information-processing capability", then yes, this is what I believe is possible, and it is fully compatible with current scientific views. If you mean "functioning without any material substrate", then no, of course not. --------------------------- > > > > >>The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain >>physically feasible states of the world (future world states which >>contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental >>setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), >>and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures >>appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, >>or by means of information transfer. The only difference between >>you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain >>only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a >>belief about material facts. >> >> > >I think the difference between us is that you think that you can in >some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the >fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to >determine that pattern. > > > ### Let me ask you something: do you think that it could be in principle possible to analyze the material structure of your brain, and use the information to make a brain which would behave in a way consistent (similar enough) with you (e.g. identify pictures of your mother as "My mother", or on seeing things you like say it likes them, etc.etc.)? If you think this is principally impossible, you would need to give some physical explanation why. But, if you agree that a sufficiently advanced technology could produce such a brain, then you cannot say we disagree about facts. Both you and me would agree that it is physically possible to make copies of our brains that would act similarly to the originals. The only difference is that I am sufficiently satisfied with/enthusiastic about the prospect of having such a copy in the future that I am willing to pay for cryonics (and yes, I even value this situation equally with "survival" by spatiotemporal continuity of cells), while a copy of you would not elicit sufficient interest from you. ----------------------------------------- >>A question of value, not fact. >> >> > >That I exist as a biological being is a fact. That you do probably >is also a fact. > > ### Oh, sure, both of us have biological sides. Yet, we also have IT-aspects, which I value, and you don't. ------------------------------ > >Thats not a very scientific thing to say. How could you possible know >that all academic detractors views come purely form ignorance? > > ### I have not seen a single, coherent, scientific dismissal of cryonics, despite reading on the subject for some time. All of them are either silly one-liner quips ("you can't turn a hamburger into a cow"), or pure expressions of faith ("it simply can't work"). Never any numbers, any technical analysis. Therefore, I am justified in treating scientific detractors of cryonics as ignorant, since if they knew any scientific arguments, they would have used them. ------------------------------------ >How could you even be sure that you know who all the academic >detractors are? > ### I didn't use the universal quantifier. I only said "I can assure you that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics comes purely from ignorance", which doesn't exclude the possibility that a few know what they are talking about it, but so far failed to publish it. But, if you know any single, published, peer-reviewed dismissal of cryonics, give me the link. ----------------------- >If you do have a precise notion of how it could work step by step >then, if your notion is internally inconsistent I could possibly point >that out to you. If its not internally inconsistent and its step by >step - perhaps you'd have persuaded me. > >If you can't say what cryonics is for you, and outline a path at >least as good as Ralph Merkle in his paper then it might be that >I can't find an internal contradiction for you because your idea >is not developed enough to be demonstrably wrong. > > ### Well, here is how I imagine cryonics might work for me: Cryonic vitrification very soon after death (a few hours, hopefully a few minutes) will preserve the brain structure down to the level of synapses, with intact synaptic protein levels (which define the synaptic strength), and the levels of other proteins, including transcription factors in the nucleus, and most RNA and protein in the cytoplasm and the ECM. In other words, AFAIK the only things that are lost are the momentary concentrations of ions and the resulting short-time-frame electric excitation patterns, which are not important for long-term and medium term memories. After a period of storage, a laser tissue machining device coupled to a multi-head near-field scanning confocal microscope array will evaporate layers of tissue, while the surface will be washed with a mixture of antibody stains (with quantum-dot labeling) for every single molecular species identified in the decades of my suspension as being important for the behavioral manifestations of consciousness. This will allow 3-D reconstruction of the whole brain connection pattern including the synaptic strengths (not possible using the microtome because of tissue deformation, but doable using laser machining). All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). Then a sufficiently powerful computer will construct a neural network replicating the connectivity pattern and the synaptic strengths, as well as the rules of modification of the synaptic strengths in the course of information processing, producing a device which will be behaviorally sufficiently similar to me as to satisfy my desires regarding future states of the world (to silence critics I don't even need to say that I have been "reincarnated" or "brought back to life", or "survived", or any such rigmarole - I only say that both I today and the device in the future are satisfied with this particular outcome, and consider the cryonics money well-spent). Does this describe a sufficiently developed idea? Do you know of any specific technical issues which would prevent it from working as advertised? I could come up with some ballpark estimates of the file sizes, numbers of antibodies, speed of laser machining, but these are all mere technical details (nothing that would be unreasonably expensive or time-consuming, as far as I can tell). Of course, unexpected developments in technology could make it easier (e.g. molecular nanotechnology), but would not impact the general feasibility of the plan. Rafal From sentience at pobox.com Mon Sep 13 21:45:43 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:45:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <41460DE8.30502@mydruthers.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> <41460DE8.30502@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <41461507.3050805@pobox.com> Chris Hibbert wrote: > Eliezer wrote: > >> Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to >> learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must >> commit to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours >> a day seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for >> relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where >> that darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over >> the things you want to believe. > > This seems like hyperbole to me. Perhaps it is intended as hyperbole. > Certainly in the rest of his post, Eliezer focused on your beliefs on > which you take action. But here, he seems to be saying that there is no > rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking about > and acting on the truth. Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events described therein. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From rafal at smigrodzki.org Mon Sep 13 21:58:30 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:58:30 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41461806.3040006@smigrodzki.org> BillK wrote: >On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >>Self defense rests primarily on your ability to communicate >>to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if the assailant >>pushes things, that you are not willing to be victimized to any degree. >> >>If your assailant is significantly more massive than you, AND has >>martial arts training, you need a weapon and you need to know how to >>use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to carry it, along >>with a firearms self defense course. Unless you are willing to use it, >>though, you might as well not even try. >> >> >> > >LOL :) >Yup, if you dress in fatigues, wear a flak jacket, carry an AK47, with >plenty of spare ammunition boxes hanging around, then I guess you will >communicate something to the people around you. > ### Outlandish outfits are not needed: the old Czech P 40, properly used, will protect you by communicating to the assailant that this is his last assault, ever. Rafal From godsdice at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 23:20:25 2004 From: godsdice at gmail.com (xllb) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:20:25 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Javier is building steam Message-ID: http://www.solar.ifa.hawaii.edu./Tropical/tropical.html Rick -- Hell is overkill. Dogma blinds. From velvethum at hotmail.com Mon Sep 13 23:57:13 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (s. p.) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:57:13 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Personal Identity (was: A view on cryonics) Message-ID: Giulio wrote: >In a sense you are not the same person after getting a haircut: some matter >is missing, you look different in the mirror so after a while your >self-image is affected, etc. >But of course you are the same person after getting a haircut. This is correct. The reason why a person remains the same after getting a haircut is that even though some atoms are lost, these atoms had no influence on personal identity in the first place. More precisely, personal identity depends entirely on the condition of one's mind and in this case the lost atoms did not affect personal identity because they were not part of the mind structure. Brett wrote: >I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I don't present to myself as a pattern. I agree. Some people prefer describing personal identity in terms of "tastes" or spiritual values. These attitudes often lead to some bizarre views such as "identity is an illusion" or "even though identity is not an illusion, we will never get a handle on what it is which gives me a license to define identity in whatever terms I like and you better respect it". These attitudes are hard to understand because personal identity depends on a mind powered by the brain which is a physical object, and like all other objects, it can and should be subject to scientific investigation. There is nothing magical about personal identity even though the concept is abstracted from the abstraction of the brain (brain->mind->identity). Moreover, once we agree that, in science, there's only one correct explanation for something at the exclusion of other theories, we can say that there can only be one explanation/description of personal identity that is true and all other theories are false. With that said, I don't think that the one true definition of what personal identity is should be expected to be grasped easily. It is easy to expect that personal identity depends entirely on the mind pattern, and you'll have more friends when you convince yourself of that. "Personal identity depends entirely on mind pattern" view is so much easier to grasp than the alternatives because it gives a warm feeling of assurance that as long as there exist records detailing our mind structures, we can expect to live forever. Besides, "personal identity depends entirely on mind pattern" view is easily understandable which adds to its popularity. Well, don't get me wrong. "Mind pattern defines personal identity" theory is not entirely false. The reason why it breaks down so easily when applied to even most basic thought experiments is the same as why it is not entirely false - it's simply not a complete/precise theory because it focuses on just one of the aspects of what PI is. Obviously, to some extent, PI depends on the mind pattern in a sense that if mind pattern changes or is damaged, it must influence PI, but is that all there is to it? I assume here that all people who think about PI have assumed that the concept should be grounded (=what PI depends on most) in mind. However, there is great potential for problems when we ground PI in the incorrect *definition* of the mind. Perhaps that's why there are many disagreements when it comes to debating PI. In my view it is incorrect to define mind as a mind pattern because patterns are static and our minds are dynamic. The reason why "mind pattern" view is not entirely false, but merely incomplete, is that it ignores the dynamic nature of our minds. That dynamic manifests itself not as a pattern but as a *process* that this pattern enters into. We are able to think and be conscious not because our mind structures carry this or other pattern but because there exists an process that executes on that pattern. Analogously, mind pattern is just like a computer software loaded onto a hardware (brain). If the power is cut to the computer, the machine just sits there and does nothing. It is "dead". It comes to "life" only when the electricity flows through hardware and forces software-defined processes to take place. "Life", however, is not, in this case, a function of electricity but the function of an overall process that happens within the system. The mental existence likewise can only occur when electrical signals flow through our brainware-software, i.e. that existence/life is totally dependent on the process that executes on the mind pattern. Life is a process, not a pattern. Next step is to define the parameters of a process. Each process is defined by matter flowing through space and time. Mind process can therefore be defined as a function of the flow of matter in space and time also, and since personal identity is grounded in the mind process, it can only be defined by matter flowing through space-time. Example: Suppose some person uploads his mind pattern onto 2 machines which now run his mind. Question: Do these coexisting uploads share the same PI? Answer: They do not, because each mind process is defined by parameters (matter in space-time) that do not share the same exact values. These uploads share the same *kind* of mind process but their identities are different. They are not the same person but perfect clones only. Question: If one of the uploads is damaged beyond repair (dies), does it mean the damaged upload will still live because the other upload will? Answer: No, the damaged upload dies and won't live again unless you time travel and physically transport it to the present. His subjective experience is now death (=nothingness). Slawomir Paliwoda _________________________________________________________________ Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 00:43:54 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <41461507.3050805@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you > should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence > too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in > deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, > so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events > described therein. If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 00:53:04 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:53:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives Message-ID: It seems the US military has revived the idea of logging everything a soldier sees and does in battle. I had wondered how long this would take. I would like one of these myself! http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,64911,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html I wonder what would happen to the legal system if everyone had a solid copy of all of their own actions recorded. How would murder and other crimes be affected? WOuld it really be a violation of privacy if you had control over the information? Lots to think about here. Shouldn't we be able to get something similar to this in the next 5 years? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.bridger at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 01:30:45 2004 From: paul.bridger at gmail.com (Paul Bridger) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:30:45 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41461507.3050805@pobox.com> <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fec89404091318304d2e8406@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet against the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. Chris Hibbert: >But here, he seems to be saying that there is no >rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking about >and acting on the truth. >The part that seems hyperbolic is that this eschews time for relaxation, >time for fiction, time for art. It's rational to relax when you need it. Just don't expect any work to be completed while you read fiction. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 14 02:43:20 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:43:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101c49a04$9c51cdd0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Mike Lorrey > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet > against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey Speaking of Eliezer's rules, happy birthday Eliezer, altho I realize im a couple days late. spike From sentience at pobox.com Tue Sep 14 03:24:12 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:24:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4146645C.5020205@pobox.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > >>Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you >>should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence >>too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in >>deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, >>so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events >>described therein. > > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? Yes, where's the adrenaline rush of gambling if you end up becoming wealthier and wealthier in the long run instead of losing all your money? Why, if everyone followed eliezers rules, people would be able to tell whether they were betting with or against the odds before deciding whether to bet. Expert poker players would stop drawing to inside straights, and where's the skill in that? ...am I missing something here? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 04:19:35 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:19:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <7a321705040913211959b9e37f@mail.gmail.com> Spike, looks like your skeptic engine is humming along just fine. No need for any tune-ups there... BBC News Online is reporting that a radio signal from deep space is not from aliens, according to astronomers. The scientists quelled rumors that spread across the web after New Scientist magazine reported that a signal picked up by a telescope in Puerto Rico might be from an alien civilization. But the Seti at home project's chief scientist, Dr. Dan Wertheimer, told BBC that, "It's all hype and noise?. We have nothing that is unusual." The BBC News Online story also cited Dr. Paul Horowitz of Harvard University. "It's not much of anything at all. We're not investigating it further," Horowitz said, according to the story. He reportedly said what the telescope picked up was "not new and definitely not a signal." http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,64818,00.html/wn_ascii On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:12:20 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Zero Powers > > > > WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for > > Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they > > believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. > ... > > > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list > Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits > on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. > > Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. > > spike From hal at finney.org Tue Sep 14 04:29:25 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives Message-ID: <20040914042925.964D257E2B@finney.org> Kevin Freels writes: > It seems the US military has revived the idea of logging > everything a soldier sees and does in battle. I had wondered > how long this would take. I would like one of these myself! > http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,64911,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html I would too, especially in combination with Steve Mann's eyetap concept, http://www.eyetap.org/research/eyetap.html . > I wonder what would happen to the legal system if everyone had a solid > copy of all of their own actions recorded. How would murder and other > crimes be affected? WOuld it really be a violation of privacy if you > had control over the information? Lots to think about here. Shouldn't > we be able to get something similar to this in the next 5 years? Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal society in Hominids, http://www.sfwriter.com/exho.htm, has a simimlar concept. Everyone wears a monitoring device which records everything that happens. This helps to keep crime low, although the Neanderthal society was so utopian and unrealistic that I didn't find it very convincing. I see several problems with using the technology for preventing crime. First, if it is supposed to incriminate the perpetrator by being captured on the victim's device, that will just make sure that the devices are stolen or disabled by attackers. Second, of course the perpetrator would not carry such a device of his own while committing a crime (at least, most would not; there have been several cases where people got caught by videotaping their own criminal actions). And third, if the devices are to provide an alibi for people falsely accused of crime, the problem will be with people altering or fooling them into providing fake evidence. Maybe they could be made tamper resistant but it is hard to stop all forms of human ingenuity. However if we move away from these interpersonal uses and just think about recordings used by the person who made them, then that avoids most of these problems. There are still some big privacy issues though. Many people won't be too thrilled about being in somebody else's recordings. And there's nothing to stop people from showing them around. So there are some tough issues there. Just as camera phones are becoming widespread, places are starting to ban taking pictures. We may see a similar backlash against ubiquitous personal recorders. Hal From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 04:51:17 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:51:17 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Step Toward Universal Computing In-Reply-To: <4179196.1095070649796.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> References: <4179196.1095070649796.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> Message-ID: <7a3217050409132151516a6e14@mail.gmail.com> Now that's pretty darn cool! Zero ************************* Step Toward Universal Computing Wired News Sep. 13, 2004 ************************* Transitive Corp. of Los Gatos, California claims to have cracked one of most elusive goals of the software industry: a near-universal emulator (called QuickTransit) that allows software developed for one platform to run on any other, with almost no performance... http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=3717&m=7817 From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 14 05:25:35 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:25:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040912162330.01bcd788@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > From: Zero Powers [mailto:zero.powers at gmail.com] > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine... spike > > Spike, looks like your skeptic engine is humming along just fine. No > need for any tune-ups there... > > BBC News Online is reporting that a radio signal from deep space is > not from aliens, according to astronomers... A few weeks ago I got a chance to meet and speak with Dr. Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute. When or if she announces a radio signal that appears to be from ET technology, that news story will have my full and undivided. Just like Jody Foster did the whole time I was viewing Contact. {8-] I need to look into these other guys, the SETI at homers. They probably have made important contributions, but I need to study their data input, see where and how much they are getting, assure myself that they are making optimal use of all those idle computer cycles they are having donated. I might pull one of my machines off of GIMPS and turn SETI at home back on. Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they careful to never give out the same segment multiple times? spike From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 05:46:08 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:46:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091322463a86b9e6@mail.gmail.com> Eliezer, very nicely put. I know it takes time to put together (and type) a well-thought-out, coherent message. And it can be disheartening at times to do so only to have people basically thumb their nose and say "well I still think you're wrong, and your mother dresses you funny." But I just wanted to let you know I found your post thought provoking and enlightening. Take care Zero On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Those who convince themselves that religion and the religious are > > purely or to a person irrational are themselves reaching irrational and > > unsupported conclusions. Your atheism is as much an irrational religion > > as the faith you left. > > > > There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily > > lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and > > unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level > > of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do > > so. > > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it > as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being > rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a > week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some > comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient > rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. > > Once upon a time the stars were mysteries, life was mysterious, matter was > mysterious, unexplained and unexplainable. But, once again, a blank spot > on the map is not a blank spot on the territory. There are mysterious > questions, never mysterious answers. People have no sense of history, no > sense of how reasonable past errors seemed *at the time*. If only I had > *personally* postulated astrological mysteries and discovered Newtonian > gravitation, *personally* postulated alchemical mysteries and discovered > chemistry, *personally* postulated vitalistic mysteries and discovered > biology. I would have invented a mysterious explanation for consciousness > and thought to myself, "No way am I falling for that again." People don't > assign history the same weight as personal experience, even if the universe > repeats the lesson over and over and over. > > There are human stories told around a campfire, full of mighty heroes and > passionate gods and comforting resolutions; and there are the stories the > universe whispers to itself, strange dreams of physics equations, an > unbelievable style of storytelling in which things are explained by maths > instead of morals. It seems to me that the human style of storytelling - > you know, the one that just plain doesn't work - is what people call > "religious" or "spiritual". It takes a mature rationalist indeed to live > in the universe the Way it really is, one coherent unified mathematical > process with not a single shred of human-style storytelling > ("spirituality") in it. It may seem harsh - ungracious - for rationalists > to demand so complete a triumph, to leave not a single shred of consolation > for spiritualists; but the truth is not a compromise between political > factions. This is the way the universe has always been. The rationalists > did not invent this answer, only prove themselves mature enough to accept it. > > Bayes' Theorem plus a Kolmogorov distribution over prior probabilities is > complete. It assigns a probability to everything. The probability it > assigns to complex unsupported hypotheses is extremely low. And this > coincides with humanity's experience, that when you have a blank area on > the map you cannot just draw in whatever you like and magically get it > right, even if, at the time, no one can "prove" you wrong. No one can > "prove" you won't win the lottery, in the sense of presenting contradictory > evidence, but the prior probability assigned by probability theory is > infinitesimal. Probability theory is vastly more powerful than people > clutching their imaginary maps would like to believe, and if you are the > tiniest bit more confident in an unsupported complex hypthesis than the > infinitesimal token probability the math calls for, you have departed the > way of rationality. > > Religion and the religious are irrational, in the sense that they assign > higher confidence to certain propositions than probability theory calls > for. Ignorance of the math is, in some ways, an excuse - it means that at > least some spiritual people have not knowingly turned against the truth, > they honestly believe that it's okay to draw in whatever they like on blank > areas of the map. But that doesn't change the math, and so they're still > irrational. > > There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on with your lives, > knowing that you alone are in charge. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:04:09 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:04:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <7a32170504091323046330225d@mail.gmail.com> John, first off I'm sorry to hear about your experience. You have my sympathy. I hope you make a fast and full recovery. As to self defense methodology, I would highly recommend Krav Maga. It is a highly effective set of self-defense techniques (it is *not* a martial art). It's advantage over martial arts is that it goes straight to the chase with a minimum of fluff. In other words its not the kind of thing you have to practice your whole life before you can feel confident to defend yourself if need be. There are no fancy moves or strikes that have to be rehearsed over and over until they are performed to perfection. Instead Krav Maga techniques will train you to quickly and effectively disarm and repel a would-be attacker. Disparities in weight and size are fairly easily compensated for, and you can garner some proficiency in the techniques in a matter of hours, not months. There is a set of DVD's you can watch to learn the basics. But I would highly recommend that you take classes for at least a few weeks. Although you can learn basic technique from watching the video, that alone will do nothing to improve your reflexes. Your chances of success against an attacker will be greatly improved by quick action almost without thinking about it. In the classes given here in L.A. you are subjected to "real-world" situations such as being attacked from behind, in the dark, with a variety of armed and unarmed attacker methods. If you can't find any classes near you, or classes just won't fit into your schedule at the moment, you can pick up the DVD's here: http://kravmaga.com/proshop/Videos/Full_Set/full_setdvd.html Good luck to you. If you have any specific questions about Krav Maga instruction that you can't find answers to at the above web site, feel free to hit me off list. Take care Zero On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:38:14 -0700, starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the hospitality field) and today scoured the net > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. > > My opponent was about 70 pounds heavier than me when it came to bulk/muscle mass, and I could tell had at least some > martial arts training. The whole experience was very terrifying for me to say the least, since I did not even see the > physical side of the assault coming. And now as I type this I feel the pain and soreness. > > I actually knew the person and thought they were a "friend." What I find so strange is the person who viciously > assaulted me is a very intelligent, educated, successful and respected member of the local community, but I realize > physically abusive people come from every socio-economic level. > > I would appreciate whatever pointers anyone might have for me. > > I feel such a mix of anger and shame right now, but I suppose that's normal. > > Thank you, > > John > www.venturist.org > www.creeksidepreserve.com > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:23:23 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:23:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a32170504091323233f8179e3@mail.gmail.com> It will happen sooner or later. When it does the "Transparent Society" http://www.davidbrin.com/tschp1.html will finally arrive. And I for one can't wait. What will happen to the U.S. legal system you ask? Probably not much. Of course if individuals don't have sufficient control over their recorders to be able to turn them off while they engage in nefarious activity, you will naturally see a sharp decrease in objectively observable crimes (rape, robbery, murder, etc.). But I wouldn't expect much impact on civil litigation. People will always find reason to sue each other, and lawyers will be there to help them. There will likely remain for quite some time litigatable issues of subjective intent, and interpretation of meanings of conversations. For instance in most contract lawsuits there is no dispute as to the language of the contract, because most litigated contracts are in writing. The litigated issues have to do with the interpretation of contract language and its application to a given set of facts. Everyone having there own copy of the a recording showing the details of a given transaction will most likely not prevent disagreement regarding the transaction and litigation to resolve those disagreements. Zero ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Freels Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:53:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives To: ExI chat list It seems the US military has revived the idea of logging everything a soldier sees and does in battle. I had wondered how long this would take. I would like one of these myself! http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,64911,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html I wonder what would happen to the legal system if everyone had a solid copy of all of their own actions recorded. How would murder and other crimes be affected? WOuld it really be a violation of privacy if you had control over the information? Lots to think about here. Shouldn't we be able to get something similar to this in the next 5 years? From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:32:27 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:32:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <001801c49952$bc0c30a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040910154936.36042.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> <001801c49952$bc0c30a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <7a32170504091323322e049b41@mail.gmail.com> Check this one: September 14, 2004 -- CBS News and top anchor Dan Rather are digging in their heels ? and just maybe digging their own journalistic graves ? by continuing to stand by their deeply suspect memos about President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard. Indeed, with each passing day, the evidence is becoming ever-more overwhelming that the documents are fake. http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/30293.htm Zero On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:29:58 -0700, Spike wrote: > I hafta wonder if Dan "the Forger" Rather is about to hang > himself with this kinda stuff going around on the web: > > 1972 Email Casts Doubt on Bush Guard Service > > CBS reporter Dan Rather today released the text of a recently discovered > email from then-Lt. George W. Bush's Air National Guard commanding > officer which casts more doubt upon the military service of the man who > would become the 43rd President of the United States. > > The revelation of the email comes just hours after questions were raised > about the authenticity of typewritten memos from the same officer, shown > yesterday by Mr. Rather on 60 Minutes. > > According to the previously unseen email message sent in May 1972 by > squadron commander Jerry Killian, Lt. Bush phoned Col. Killian because > "his internet connection was on the fritz and he couldn't IM me." > > Lt. Bush apparently wanted to talk about "how he can get out of coming > to drill from now through November." > > According to Col. Killian's email, the young Bush wanted to go to > Alabama to work as webmaster for a Republican candidate's website. > > Mr. Rather said the authenticity of the 32-year-old email has been > confirmed by several Nigerian officials who specialize in electronic > funds transfer by email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 14 07:13:40 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:13:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Turning Off Bad Genes Message-ID: <002d01c49a2a$5ccd0320$6600a8c0@brainiac> "But if it works, RNAi could potentially yield a cornucopia of other drugs designed to silence errant, disease-causing genes in the body, or disarm an invading virus by knocking out its genes. A second company, Sirna Therapeutics of Boulder, Colo., applied to the F.D.A. last week for permission to begin a trial of its own drug for macular degeneration.": http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/business/14gene.html?hp (I search for interesting stocks from time to time - and RNAI is a new one to me ... will be on my watch list.) Olga From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 14 07:26:23 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:26:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives References: <7a32170504091323233f8179e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003501c49a2c$23ac27e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Zero Powers" > It will happen sooner or later. When it does the "Transparent > Society" http://www.davidbrin.com/tschp1.html will finally arrive. > And I for one can't wait. > > What will happen to the U.S. legal system you ask? http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002034793_olson14m.html ;)) Olga From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 07:41:53 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:41:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <948b11e0409140041382a9f21@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it > as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being > rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a > week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some > comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient > rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. > Very well put. It leaves open two questions: a) What is and is not rationality? b) Given (a) is rationality so all encompassing or fundamental to all one's values that full commitment to it, epecially to the point of excluding what is not accesible to it, is the only sane choice? > Once upon a time the stars were mysteries, life was mysterious, matter was > mysterious, unexplained and unexplainable. But, once again, a blank spot > on the map is not a blank spot on the territory. There are mysterious > questions, never mysterious answers. People have no sense of history, no > sense of how reasonable past errors seemed *at the time*. If only I had > *personally* postulated astrological mysteries and discovered Newtonian > gravitation, *personally* postulated alchemical mysteries and discovered > chemistry, *personally* postulated vitalistic mysteries and discovered > biology. I would have invented a mysterious explanation for consciousness > and thought to myself, "No way am I falling for that again." People don't > assign history the same weight as personal experience, even if the universe > repeats the lesson over and over and over. > Good point. While I don't believe in a "God of the gaps" or in "God" at all by most people's lights, I do believe that there are aspects of human nature that require a sort of vision-logic that is not confined to what most people mean by "rationality". It feels strange to write that in response to something you, of all people, wrote. You obviously have tons of "vision" and far greater dedication to that vision that most religious folks can claim. Perhaps you have bridged the gap to a fully rational vision-logic. But it does not seem like this is so yet. > There are human stories told around a campfire, full of mighty heroes and > passionate gods and comforting resolutions; and there are the stories the > universe whispers to itself, strange dreams of physics equations, an > unbelievable style of storytelling in which things are explained by maths > instead of morals. It seems to me that the human style of storytelling - > you know, the one that just plain doesn't work - is what people call > "religious" or "spiritual". To dismiss it with "just plain doesn't work" is incorrect. It actually does work quite well or it would not have survived and even thrived for so long. It works well for binding groups together, for raising one's eyes above the daily grind, for refining yearning for and views of transcendence and much more. It has done these things for thousands of years. Yeah, granted that it has done them with a lot of krap in the mix. But it is not true it is all just worthless blather. >It takes a mature rationalist indeed to live > in the universe the Way it really is, one coherent unified mathematical > process with not a single shred of human-style storytelling > ("spirituality") in it. It may seem harsh - ungracious - for rationalists > to demand so complete a triumph, to leave not a single shred of consolation > for spiritualists; but the truth is not a compromise between political > factions. This is the way the universe has always been. The rationalists > did not invent this answer, only prove themselves mature enough to accept it. > As the universe includes human beings there obviously is more than a shred of spirituality (and other human activity) in it. It may seem ridiculous to you but imho you are one of the most profoundly moral and even spiritual people I have ever met. We need to work with what humans are. Saying only those humans who totally chuck aspects of their humanity that the vast majority consider immensely important are "rational" and thus honest and mature is saying that most people may be dismissed as deluded fools. Few will chose to follow into the rational desert you portray. If we are to have a hope of uplifting ourselves then shouldn't we start with the fullness of what humanity is? Shouldn't we use all the tools and aspects of humans that can be at all useful? Why start by throwing out much of what people consider of great value? > Bayes' Theorem plus a Kolmogorov distribution over prior probabilities is > complete. It assigns a probability to everything. The probability it > assigns to complex unsupported hypotheses is extremely low. Many people do not share your faith in Bayes as the determiner of all things or even as the lynchpin of rationality. > Religion and the religious are irrational, in the sense that they assign > higher confidence to certain propositions than probability theory calls > for. Ignorance of the math is, in some ways, an excuse - it means that at > least some spiritual people have not knowingly turned against the truth, > they honestly believe that it's okay to draw in whatever they like on blank > areas of the map. This has very little to do with spirituality. But that doesn't change the math, and so they're still > irrational. > > There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on with your lives, > knowing that you alone are in charge. > Yes. We are in charge of what we believe and what we encourage others to believe. We are responsible for it. It is not a quick thought what the effects of one's beliefs are on self and others. It is not obvious that rationality as you define it would lead humanity to the future it actually wants. Rationality is vastly important. But it will not give us the vision or the compassion or the wisdom we need to actually form and accomplish our dreams. This does not mean that rationality is to be offended. It merely means there are aspects of human life that are not directly accessible to rationality. - samantha From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 07:49:42 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:49:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Step Toward Universal Computing In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409132151516a6e14@mail.gmail.com> References: <4179196.1095070649796.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> <7a3217050409132151516a6e14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04091400498404835@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, it is cool. But I have been hearing of compaines who worked on this and claimed in their releases to have nailed it in large part since at least the late 80s. So what is so different this time around? -s On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:51:17 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Now that's pretty darn cool! > > Zero > > ************************* > Step Toward Universal Computing > Wired News Sep. 13, 2004 > ************************* > Transitive Corp. of Los Gatos, > California claims to have cracked > one of most elusive goals of the > software industry: a near-universal > emulator (called QuickTransit) that > allows software developed for one > platform to run on any other, with > almost no performance... > http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=3717&m=7817 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From starman2100 at cableone.net Tue Sep 14 07:41:45 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:41:45 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: self-defense concerns Message-ID: <1095147705_13255@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 07:59:30 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040914075930.21073.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on > with your lives, > knowing that you alone are in charge. > Allow me to play the Devil's advocate, Eliezer. Actually I will be representing God too and many of the other denizens of the spirit world so consider this a class action suit. So if you could, as judge and jury of the court of Bayes, indulge me by solving a socratic homework problem indirectly pertaining to the issue at hand. The problem is simple lets say you and I decide to play a very simple game. the rules are: 1. You and I stake a dollar each on the outcome of the draw of a single card from a deck (normal 52 cards no jokers). 2. I get to draw the card and if it comes up an ace of spades, I win and I get your dollar. 3. If it come up as any other card, you get a dollar. 4. We only play it once- that is to say there is only one draw from the deck. Next, I send you a picture in an email showing a deck of cards and next to it is the ace of spades. I demand my dollar. Your problem is this: Use Bayes Theorem to determine: a. The probability that I cheated. b. The probabilities that an ace of spades would show up if I was cheating. c. The probability of an ace of spades if I was not. d. Should you send me your dollar. Please exposite this by showing the math. Listing your probabilities and/or distributions including posteriors, assumed priors- even if they are assumed as they would have to be since you don't know me well enough to know how honest I am. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 08:31:33 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:31:33 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <124020-22004911314495692@M2W054.mail2web.com> References: <124020-22004911314495692@M2W054.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04091401315924065f@mail.gmail.com> I very much agree with Natasha. The wrongness of the initiation of force against another is a cornerstone of civilized existence. It must be upheld by a refusal to ignore anyone stepping across that line. Your assailant must get a much needed reality check. I would advise, however, taking precautions if your assailant might be inclined to take the consequences out on you. Be safe. Do not give him the opportunity to harm you. If necessary do own a weapon. Most assailants can be stopped by knowledge of the ability and willingness of their victim to defend themselves. But also remember that patterns of abuse tend to escalated if not checked. Your only safe course is to stop this person from harming you again. -samantha On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:49:56 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > John wrote: > > "I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the > hospitality field) and today scoured the net > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be best > for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a > minimum of harm done if I have no other choice." > > John, my suggestion is to press charges, now. > > Please do not be intimidated. There are many types of aggressor/victim > relationships and they are not all between a man assaulting his partner or > a woman assaulting her partner, or parents assaulting their children. If > you play victim in this "relationship" then you may fall into the category > of a person allowing this to happen because you are shamed, scared or > eventually in denial that it ever happened. > > No one has the right to physically attack you and you do have a > responsibility to yourself to protect yourself from any further attacks. > > Natasha > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Tue Sep 14 13:03:10 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:03:10 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen Message-ID: <6DC769CE-064E-11D9-B7A6-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Just accepted for publication... A Giant Planet Candidate near a Young Brown Dwarf Direct VLT/NACO Observations using IR Wavefront Sensing Chauvin, A.-M. Lagrange, C. Dumas, B. Zuckerman, D. Mouillet, I. Song, J.-L. Beuzit, and P. Lowrance Abstract. We present deep VLT/NACO infrared imaging and spectroscopic observations of the brown dwarf 2MASSWJ1207334-393254, obtained during our on-going adaptive optics survey of southern young, nearby associations. This 25 M_Jup brown dwarf, located approx. 70 pc from Earth, has been recently identified as a member of the TW Hydrae Association (age approx. 8 Myr). Using adaptive optics infrared wavefront sensing to acquire sharp images of its circumstellar environment, we discovered a very faint and very red object at a close separation of approx. 780 mas (approx. 55 AU). Photometry in the H, Ks and L' bands and upper limit in J-band are compatible with a spectral type L5-L9.5. Near-infrared spectroscopy is consistent with this spectral type estimate. Different evolutionary models predict an object within the planetary regime with a mass of M = 5 +/- 2 M_Jup and an effective temperature of T_eff = 1250 +/- 200 K. Keywords. 2MASSWJ1207334 393254 ? brown dwarf ? giant planet ? adaptive optics imaging and spectroscopy full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 13:42:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <3fec89404091318304d2e8406@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040914134221.38947.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paul Bridger wrote: > On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against > >the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? > > I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet against > the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. Never counted cards, eh? > > Chris Hibbert: > >But here, he seems to be saying that there is no > >rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking > >about and acting on the truth. > >The part that seems hyperbolic is that this eschews time for > relaxation, time for fiction, time for art. > > It's rational to relax when you need it. Just don't expect any work > to be completed while you read fiction. That isn't the issue at hand. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 13:54:17 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:54:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: Last I heard, there was some overlapping of signal segments. This way, if a particular segment is distributed but doesn;t come back for some reason, it still gets processed. This was my understanding three years ago. Not sure if it is still the case. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 12:25 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien > > > From: Zero Powers [mailto:zero.powers at gmail.com] > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien > > > > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine... spike > > > > > Spike, looks like your skeptic engine is humming along just fine. No > > need for any tune-ups there... > > > > BBC News Online is reporting that a radio signal from deep space is > > not from aliens, according to astronomers... > > > A few weeks ago I got a chance to meet and speak with > Dr. Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute. When or if she > announces a radio signal that appears to be from ET > technology, that news story will have my full and > undivided. Just like Jody Foster did the whole time > I was viewing Contact. {8-] > > I need to look into these other guys, the SETI at homers. > They probably have made important contributions, but > I need to study their data input, see where and > how much they are getting, assure myself that they > are making optimal use of all those idle computer > cycles they are having donated. I might pull one > of my machines off of GIMPS and turn SETI at home back on. > > Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they > careful to never give out the same segment multiple > times? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 13:53:25 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040914135325.93112.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they > careful to never give out the same segment multiple > times? Actually, they do, and for a good reason: so one person can't spoof a signal. The anomalous signal has been reported by multiple S at H users who have processed the same segment. What they are careful to do is not give the same segment to the same person or group twice. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 13:56:27 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:56:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Turning Off Bad Genes References: <002d01c49a2a$5ccd0320$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: I would be happy with something that could keep my teeth from decaying. (besides regular brushing and dental care) I have the rapid tooth decay gene(s). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olga Bourlin" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 2:13 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] Turning Off Bad Genes > "But if it works, RNAi could potentially yield a cornucopia of other drugs > designed to silence errant, disease-causing genes in the body, or disarm an > invading virus by knocking out its genes. A second company, Sirna > Therapeutics of Boulder, Colo., applied to the F.D.A. last week for > permission to begin a trial of its own drug for macular degeneration.": > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/business/14gene.html?hp > > (I search for interesting stocks from time to time - and RNAI is a new one > to me ... will be on my watch list.) > > Olga > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Tue Sep 14 23:13:49 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 00:13:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914134221.38947.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040914134221.38947.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41477B2D.5040307@optusnet.com.au> Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Paul Bridger wrote: > > >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey >> wrote: >> >>>If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against >>>the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? >> >>I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet against >>the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. > > > Never counted cards, eh? Wouldn't counting cards (and estimating probabilities) be a Bayesian thing to do ? :) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 14:30:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <41477B2D.5040307@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20040914143032.61987.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- David wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Paul Bridger wrote: > > > > > >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey > >> wrote: > >> > >>>If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet > against > >>>the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? > >> > >>I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet > against > >>the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. > > > > > > Never counted cards, eh? > > Wouldn't counting cards (and estimating probabilities) be a Bayesian > thing to do ? :) It is Bayesian, but it's still betting against the house, and against the odds. But go ask the MIT card counting ring if gambling is any fun anymore. On a side note, isn't a dislike of risk a sign of aspergers? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:40:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? G. On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it > as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being > rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a > week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some > comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient > rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Tue Sep 14 15:58:37 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:58:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE010930AD@amazemail2.amazeent.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you > should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence > too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in > deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, > so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events > described therein. Mike Lorrey: > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? Not necessarily true. People have imperfect information and they asess the probability of events happening differently. The classic example of this is betting on an event you know will be thrown. Additionally betting against long odds might be necessary to prepare the odds for a situation later, for example, taking a fall yourself in order to manipulate the opinions of other bettors. From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Sep 14 17:30:20 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:30:20 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (9/14/04 8:54) Kevin Freels wrote: >Last I heard, there was some overlapping of signal segments. This way, if a >particular segment is distributed but doesn;t come back for some reason, it >still gets processed. This was my understanding three years ago. Not sure if >it is still the case. > AFAIK, this is still the case. Also, blocks with "candidates" (both spikes and triplets) are queued for special attention - more runs through the mill, so to speak. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 18:05:07 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:05:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] FW: [NEWS] The New York Times > Technology > Let a Thousand Ideas Flower: China Is a New Hotbed of Research Message-ID: The New York Times > Technology > Let a Thousand Ideas Flower: China Is a New Hotbed of Research: "Microsoft is not the only multinational company to use China as a base for research and development. In recent years hundreds of them have set up laboratories here, and Chinese officials claim the number is growing by 200 a year. The labs vary in size and ambition, but as they multiply and expand they may help China grow from mostly a user and copier of advanced technologies developed elsewhere into a powerful incubator of its own, industry executives and experts say. And the shift may eventually reshape applied research, jobs and policies in the United States and other developed countries. 'The Chinese are going to become sources of innovation,'' said Denis Fred Simon, a specialist in Chinese science and technology who is provost of the new graduate-level Levin Institute of the State University of New York. 'They will find themselves enmeshed in global R.& D. more and more.''" http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/13/technology/13china.html?ex=1252900800&en=ead8646c19768d24&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From eliasen at mindspring.com Tue Sep 14 20:22:14 2004 From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:22:14 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <414752F6.3000106@mindspring.com> Spike wrote: > Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they > careful to never give out the same segment multiple > times? From their FAQ: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/faq.html#q3.10 Q: Is it likely that so many people sign up that you won't always have enough Arecibo data to feed all the clients? If so, how will this be handled? A: It's possible. Up to a point, we will handle it by sending the same data to more than one user. Beyond that, if we can afford it, we will set up another data recorder at Arecibo and record a wider frequency range (our current system records only 2.5 MHz out of SERENDIP's 100 MHz bandwidth). --- If you carefully read their science results, they now usually send out all results for testing at least twice, as they have more computational capacity at hand than they do raw data. -- Alan Eliasen | "You cannot reason a person out of a eliasen at mindspring.com | position he did not reason himself http://futureboy.homeip.net/ | into in the first place." | --Jonathan Swift From david at ideoware.com Tue Sep 14 21:46:09 2004 From: david at ideoware.com (David McFadzean) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:46:09 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fw: Keith could use some help. Message-ID: <061601c49aa4$3f33f420$6401a8c0@trogdor> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Henson" > Actually Keith is *desperate* for help. > > I got turned down on my refugee claim after an incredible 10 months after > the last hearing. But after that my appeal to the Canadian federal courts > was almost instantly rejected. > > So at this point I am a "failed refugee." The only thing that can keep me > from being deported to the US on short notice is an appeal to the Minister > of Citizenship and Immigration. Her office gets 15,000 letters a week so > it takes a well known case to reach the level where it gets attention. > > Now you say, being deported to the US isn't so bad. Well in my case it > is. Here is testimony obtained about a week ago. It is from May 13, > 2004. A Toronto cop is being quizzed by my lawyer about events when I came > here three and a half years ago: > > Q. I don't think you need to go into that. I > think we're all aware of that. Did Mr. Schwarz did you ask > him if he was going to take any steps to extradite Mr. Henson? > A. Yes, I did. > Q. And he responded that he wasn't? > A. He said the State of California would not > extradite Mr. Henson from Canada, however, if Mr. Henson was > found to be in another State, such as New York, then they would > probably proceed with extradition requests from New York. > Q. I see. But he made it clear to you that they > have no intention to try to extradite him from Canada? > A. It came down to a matter of cost, dollars and > cents. > Q. He wasn't candid enough to admit that they > couldn't extradite him from Canada? > A. No. He just said that the State of > California would not extradite Mr. Henson from Canada. > Q. I see. > A. . because of the cost. > > Of course scientology would be footing the bill. Someone who has been > sentenced does not have to be extradited, they can just be kidnapped by > bounty hunters. And cult agents have made fairly clear public threats that > I would not survive jail. > > Considering the depth the cult has corrupted the government of Riverside > County, I can hardly look for justice there. I am about to release the > evidence that there is a 99.6% chance scientology "ran in" a jury pool of > their own choice. > > Ok, if you want to help what to do? > > If you live in Canada, write your MP asking them to pass the email on to > the Minister, Judy Sgro with a cc to my MP and if you will, a blind cc to > me or if you want, post it. You can get your MP from your postal code by > going here: > > http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=canadaonline&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parl.gc.ca%2Finformation%2Fabout%2Fpeople%2Fhouse%2FPostalCode.asp%3Flang%3DE%26amp%3Bsource%3Dsm > > My MP is Lloyd St Amand, Constituency Address > > 98 Paris Road, Unit 3 > Brantford, Ontario > N3R 1H9 > > E-Mail: stamal at parl.gc.ca > > He says that email and postal mail are given the same attention. > > If you are outside of Canada, supporting email to stamal at parl.gc.ca asking > him to help me stay in Canada would be the way to go. > > If you know me personally or by reputation, put that in your email or > letter. Half a page to a page is more likely to get read, but the length > is up to you. > > Thumbnail background here. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson > > and in too much detail here: > > http://www.operatingthetan.com/civil-rights-letter-redacted.htm > > Much appreciate your efforts. > > Keith Henson > > PS and if anyone wants to read the whole transcript, ask and I will try to > get it up on a web site. > From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Sep 14 23:32:03 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:32:03 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41477F73.1020005@jefallbright.net> Eliezer said: >Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it >as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being >rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a >week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some >comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient >rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. > > Eliezer - I admire your dedication to this philosophy, and agree with its truth. I recognize the terrain, having lived there for a large part of my life. However, within a larger context, it is limiting to place so much emphasis on absolute rationality. In the larger world of human relations (no, it's not a special case) of which we are each a part, we deal with others who (1) don't share our emphasis on rationality, and (2) don't share the same knowledge base. And, if we look carefully, we see that even the most devout Bayesian faces a constant struggle with those parts of self that are not under conscious analysis and control. An optimum strategy for living an effective life (especially involving other people), require the application of (bounded) rationality to those areas where it works, and use of a "toolbox" of heuristics and specialized skills, but essentially going with the flow, for dealing effectively with other areas. A rational approach to life includes both "rational" in the mathematical sense, and "rational" in the pragmatic sense. We INTJs have a hard time accepting this -- it's messy, but it works. You'd be surprised. And of course at an even higher level it's completely rational in the mathematical sense, but we don't get to see that in its wholeness and that's not where we live. - Jef From namacdon at ole.augie.edu Tue Sep 14 23:51:08 2004 From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:51:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality Message-ID: <1095205868.87920b40namacdon@ole.augie.edu> >A rational approach to life includes both "rational" >in the mathematical >sense, and "rational" in the pragmatic sense. We >INTJs have a hard time >accepting this -- it's messy, but it works. You'd be >surprised. Precisely because it's the domain of us INTP's- we're the ones who typically end up trying to figure out how to integrate man's irrationality- and you end up cleaning up after us. :) -Nicq MacDonald From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 03:54:26 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:54:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking about. Zero On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it > into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform > better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into > an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? > G. From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 15 05:49:30 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:49:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915054930.10354.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Nietzsche wrote, "there are rational reasons for abandoning rationalism". If memory serves, the full quote was actually "There are rational reasons for abandoning rationalism altogether", but shall we amend his dictum to write that sometimes irrationalism can be expedient, even anodyne? The first of two personal examples is: in the past I would respond to those acquaintances with whom I am barely on speaking terms by being direct; this has very recently become very wearying, so I speak irrationally. With a wild-eyed look I told an anti-abortionist we need more wars to kill off the surfeit of population. He fled I am accosted constantly by religious proselytizers and have recently discovered that it is impossible to have a sincerely rational discussion with them without becoming extremely irritated. A definition of rationality in this context would be responding to a religionist in a thoroughly forthright manner, but as their demeanor almost invariably displays ulterior motives I as of last week have started to harbor no guilt in speaking to them in a slightly dissembling, irrational manner yet without becoming excessively aggressive. Last week a proselytizer said she wanted to ask me a question; in the past I would have listened to the question without interruption, without any guile, but fatigue of the same question being asked for the several hundredth time prompted me to quickly interject, "only if you let me ask YOU a question". She reluctantly agreed and launched the familiar, expected question, "who do you think Jesus is?" I replied he was a man who lived two thousand years ago, she then wanted to know if I thought he was the son of God. In the past I would have replied 'perhaps' or 'I don't know', but rather than become irritated or terminate the conversation, I decided on a new tack, asking her "how can God have a son?". Her predictable answer was "God can do anything", so I retorted by asking "how can 'God-dom be passed to a new generation?". She became flustered, replying, "you asked your question!", then turned on her heel, ending the discussion. The completely honest response to her query would have been agnostic, but by being cagey and slightly irrational the conversation was brought to a satisfactory conclusion, perhaps for her as well, since she wasted no more than one or two minutes of her time. --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into > an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed > better? Are you > talking about some extreme statistical probability > endeavor (i.e. > picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where > your behavior > actually has some reasonably predictable probability > of effecting the > desired result (i.e. conducting a business or > creative transaction)? > > I'm really interested in getting some idea of what > you're talking about. > > Zero ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 06:00:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:00:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genetically modified bacterium as remedy for intestinal diseases Message-ID: Genetically modified bacterium as remedy for intestinal diseases: "Researchers from the Flanders Interuniversity Institute for Biotechnology (VIB) at Ghent University are joining the fight against chronic intestinal disease with a genetically modified bacterium (Lactococcus lactis). The modified bacterium is able to produce medication right in the intestine. This is often the crux of the problem: a number of medicines are presumed to be effective, but until now it has been impossible to get them into the intestine in a simple manner. The researchers have shown that the genetically modified bacterium is able to manufacture the potential medicine, Trefoil Factors, in the intestines of diseased mice" http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-09/vfii-gmb091404.php --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 06:14:29 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:14:29 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have many examples. Often you know that you do X better (X = sport, business meeting, sex, ...) if you work yourself in a dreamy state of mind where it is the only thing that matter so you give it total concentration (they call this "flow" these days). But the belief that winning the dart game at the pub is the most important thing in the world is irrational, isn't it? (it is not so terribly important and there are probably other things that you should be using your time for). Sometimes when you want to achieve an objective you may choose to work yourself in a positive state of mind where you firmly believe that you will achieve it. This belief is irrational when you know that probabilities are against you. But believing that you will win gives you some kind of positive energy that (as far as the outcome does depend on how you play) actually increases your chances. I think we can make examples in artistic creation (I am not the right person to do it as I have no artistic talent). Sometimes you are just happier if you let yourself believe, for a little while, things that you know are probably not correct. Being happier energizes you and makes you perform better in other things. In summary I think rationality is one of many behaviour modes that we can choose, probably the best one most of the times but not the only one. The best thing to do would be choosing (rationally) whether you want to think and act rationally or not in a given situation (using for example what Greg Egan calls "outlooks"). G. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Zero Powers Sent: mi?rcoles, 15 de septiembre de 2004 5:54 To: Giu1i0 Pri5c0; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking about. Zero On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it > into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform > better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into > an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? > G. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 15 06:37:00 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915063700.26000.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Often you know that you do X > better (X = sport, > business meeting, sex, ...) if you work yourself in > a dreamy state of mind > where it is the only thing that matter so you give > it total concentration > (they call this "flow" these days). But the belief > that winning the dart > game at the pub is the most important thing in the > world is irrational, > isn't it? I have been able to work myself into that state of mind without the irrationality. Believing that you will win and that this is important has a good chance of inducing the state - although, taken literally, it's also an excuse to be lazy. (Why put out extra effort if success is in the bag anyway? Even if it is important...) A better way might be to simply focus completely on the task, without any judgement as to how important it is. (Aside from all other considerations, it is what you're doing *at that moment*; more long term important considerations can wait.) This especially includes trying to dream up ways that you could win: visualizing victory, but not only the actual victory itself - visualizing the *path to* victory as well. Once you know a way you could win, if you follow that path, you could win. (Of course, you should also try to see ways the path could go wrong, how you could tell that's happening or will soon, and what you can do to correct it.) > Sometimes you are just happier if you let yourself > believe, for a little > while, things that you know are probably not > correct. Being happier > energizes you and makes you perform better in other > things. Being happier can be achieved in a number of ways. You can even divorce it from (most) rationality: "The world's going to end in five minutes? Great! Why am I so happy? Why not be happy?" Granted, this does not always work, and there are evolutionary reasons for sorrow and the like. But sometime when one has no extreme emotion either way, one can try meditating and making oneself happy - not for any reason, but just being happy in and of itself. (Smiling - again, for no reason beyond just plain becoming happy - can act as a physical aid to this. So can certain drugs, though I would not reccomend that path: medical problems aside, the point is to be able to become happy at any time, and one will not have instant access to drugs at all times. The main driver for this happiness, though, must be one's own mind, or sheer force of will.) Once one is sufficiently comfortable with the results of this, one can then call upon this forced yet genuine happiness in times of need - to battle grief, or to psych oneself up for tasks. It is a technique and a tool, nothing more. But we are human, so we might as well make the best use of everything that means - including the ability to be irrationally happy. From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 06:50:10 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:50:10 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Call for Papers - TECHNOLOGY AND THE CHANGING FACE OF HUMANITY Message-ID: Call for Papers May 29 - 30, 2005 University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario CANADIAN JACQUES MARITAIN ASSOCIATION Conference On: TECHNOLOGY AND THE CHANGING FACE OF HUMANITY As technology rapidly changes, so too must its relationship to humans. Of course the very idea of what it means to be human has changed throughout history. The objective of this conference is to explore issues such as what it means to be human as well as how technology influences our understanding of ourselves as persons. The ways in which humans understand themselves have had enormous influence on social structures, political, educational and so on. This conference will also consider the impact of technology on human rights. As new technologies appear, such as biometrics, it remains unclear as to their effects on the concept, for instance, of privacy rights. Many hold that new technologies enhance our security, but it remains unclear as to how this will affect our thinking about individuals and their rights? Finally, given that new technologies are ever more invasive in terms of the body, one of the great philosophical problems again rears its head: what does it mean to be human? Some suggested topics for papers: ? Technology, genetic engineering and human rights ? Technology and the changing views on privacy ? Technology and the individual ? Historical views on the relationship between technē and the nature of the person ? Transhumanism, Posthumanism and Humanism Other relevant suggestions are welcome. Please send a 250 word abstract, by October 15, 2004, to either of the following addresses: Professor Chantal Beauvais Professor Richard Feist St Paul University St Paul University Ottawa, Ontario Ottawa, Ontario cbeauvais at ustpaul.ca rfeist at ustpaul.ca The University of Ottawa Press is interested in publishing the results of this conference. 29 - 30 mai, 2005 University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario ASSOCIATION CANADIENNE JACQUES MARITAIN Conf?rence portant sur: La technologie et le paradigme ?mergent de l?humain Les innovations technologiques incessantes propres ? notre ?poque modifient le rapport que l'humain entretient vis-?-vis la technologie. On sait par ailleurs que la mani?re dont l'?tre humain se comprend n'a cess? d'?voluer au cours des ?ges. L'objectif de cette conf?rence est d'explorer l'impact mutuel de ces ?volutions. La mani?re dont nous nous comprenons en tant qu=?tre humains influe consid?rablement sur nos structures sociales, politiques, p?dagogiques, etc. Cette conf?rence se penchera ?galement sur l'impact qu'exerce la technologie sur les droits humains. Il n'est pas facile de pr?ciser les effets des technologies nouvelles, comme la biom?trie, dans des domaines comme le droit ? la vie priv?e. Si certains estiment que les technologies ?mergentes augmentent notre s?curit?, il est l?gitime de s'interroger ? propos de leur impact sur notre mani?re de penser les individus et leurs droits. Enfin, le fait que les nouvelles technologies sont de plus en plus int?gr?es ? la corpor?it? fait ?merger ? nouveaux frais cette formidable interrogation philosophique : que signifie ?tre humain ? Quelques suggestions de th?mes qui pourraient ?tre abord?s: ? La technologie, l?ing?nierie g?n?tique et les droits humains ? La technologie et les conceptions diff?rentes de la vie priv?e ? La technologie et l?individu ? Histoire de la relation entre la techn? et la nature de la personne ? Le transhumanisme, le posthumanisme et l?humanisme D?autres suggestions pertinentes seront accept?es. Veuillez envoyer votre r?sum? de communications (250 mots) avant le 15 octobre ? l?une des personnes suivantes : Professeure Chantal Beauvais Professeur Richard Feist Universit? Saint-Paul Universit? Saint-Paul Ottawa, Ontario Ottawa, Ontario cbeauvais at ustpaul.ca rfeist at ustpaul.ca Les Presses de l?Universit? d?Ottawa ont manifest? leur intention de publier les articles ?manant de cette conf?rence. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 15 06:59:14 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:59:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Call for Papers - TECHNOLOGY AND THE CHANGING FACE OF HUMANITY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040915015454.01a37bd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >Call for Papers > >May 29 - 30, 2005 >University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario >CANADIAN JACQUES MARITAIN ASSOCIATION This sounds pretty much equivalent to the ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ASSOCIATION, right? Jacques Maritain was a mid-20th century Catholic Thomist. Here's their HQ: Headquarters: The headquarters of the Association is the Dominican College of Philosophy and Theology, 96 Empress Ave., Ottawa, Canada. That's not a reason not to speak with them, but it could be cause for caution. Damien Broderick From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 15 06:58:08 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:58:08 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > >I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of > >fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I > >don't present to myself as a pattern. > > > > > ### There are many categories of objects, whose identity is > commonly interpreted in different ways: e.g. sculptures are > treated as unique objects, but art prints can be produced in > large series. Thus, for the art connoisseur, the copy of a famous > sculpture is only a copy, but every print from the original artist's > print series is an original. The identity of a bank account is > defined by the routing and account numbers, not the physical > location of the stored data. Thus, the concept of "identity" is > in fact a whole slew of related but distinct concepts, with > different properties and referents. I've no problem with this but it doesn't seem relevant here. As Slawomir Paliwoda says in his excellent post on Personal Identity, "personal identity depends on a mind powered by the brain which is a physical object, and like all other objects, it can and should be subject to scientific investigation." And .... "once we agree that, in science, there's only one correct explanation for something at the exclusion of other theories, we can say that there can only be one explanation/description of personal identity that is true and all other theories are false." > I accept that your (Brett Paatch's) identity is what you say, since > this is what is produced by the processes in your brain (and my > meta-rule for such definitions is that they are produced by the > brains in a self-referential manner) . It's a fact, albeit a fact > pertaining only to Brett Paatsch. Now, my own, Rafal's identity > is defined differently. It is also a fact. Although the definitions > are different, they are not contradictory - they apply to different > objects, just like the varied definitions of an "original" in the art > world. Even though your definition of self is different from mine >(not even analogous), I do not think you are mistaken - merely > different. Do you see the point? Yes, I understand what your saying, but I think that you have gone off on a tangent. You are taking us away from a discussion on cryonics and of the obstacles cryonics would inevitably have to overcome to be of interest to people like you and I. That is people that currently have our sense of self located in our brains. > I don't think you are mistaken, not mistaken about yourself, > but you are mistaken where you believe me to be mistaken > about myself. I think you missed my point. You are currently located in your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to be of interest to either of us. > In other words, you are a universalist, believing that a > single definition of self (your own) is the only correct one > ("all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense > of self....."), while I am a pluralist, letting everyone decide > where their own (and only their own) identities lie. You've split my sentence in the middle when you quote me above. I'd said "all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain". That is not me defining a self concept. That is me pointing out that whatever our self concepts are they are *located* if we are homo sapiens in our brain structure. True and scientific statements can be made about "all members of the species homo sapiens..." which picks up both you and I. > You can conceive of others being different in their thinking > from you, and yet not mistaken, can't you? I find it to be a > useful ability. Of course. But they can *also* be different AND mistaken. > ---------------------------------------- > > >But you ITs do postulate that you can exist as disembodied > >information don't you? > > > ### What do you mean by "disembodied"? . > If you mean "functioning without any material substrate", then no, > of course not. Ok. So you think you would cease to exist as "you" while you exist only as a dataset of information for building you at a later date? Sort of cake - recipe -cake. While your a recipe your not a cake. > --------------------------- > > > > >>The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain > >>physically feasible states of the world (future world states which > >>contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental > >>setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), > >>and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures > >>appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, > >>or by means of information transfer. The only difference between > >>you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain > >>only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a > >>belief about material facts. > > > >I think the difference between us is that you think that you can in > >some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the > >fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to > >determine that pattern. > > > > > > > ### Let me ask you something: do you think that it could be in principle > possible to analyze the material structure of your brain, and use the > information to make a brain which would behave in a way consistent > (similar enough) with you (e.g. identify pictures of your mother as "My > mother", or on seeing things you like say it likes them, etc.etc.)? It might be. In principle. It might be possible to create what Slawomir Paliwoda calls a perfect clone. I wouldn't think that perfect clone was me. And I don't think that clone could be created because I don't think the information to create it could be gathered to the requisite resolution without destroying the original me in the process. > If you think this is principally impossible, you would need to give > some physical explanation why. You mean that to satisfy or to convince you I'd need to :-) I might not need to for myself, particularly as I do agree with Slawomir Paliwoda, in that I do not think that I would be my perfect clone. This is not a nit picking point. People who believe that cryonics will work, or that molecular nanotech can work, often offer the failure to demonstrate that it can't to their knowledge as though that was relevant evidence. It isn't relevant evidence. What is missed out of that view is the understanding that people who do understand stuff are not always willing to spend the time trying to untangle the confused misunderstandings of those who don't understand stuff. This is particularly the case when people have complicated religous worldviews. Other people cannot justify the time to disprove those worldviews. There is not payoff for doing so. The people are not greatful for being disillusioned. They don't offer to pay for the service. They are more likely often to be resentful. > But, if you agree that a sufficiently > advanced technology could produce such a brain, then you > cannot say we disagree about facts. I can conceed the possibility, but I don't find it worth giving a lot of thought too, given that I realise I would not be my "perfect clone". And there are plenty of other 'facts' yet for us to disagree over. > Both you and me would agree that it is physically possible > to make copies of our brains that would act similarly to the > originals. The only difference is that I am sufficiently satisfied > with/enthusiastic about the prospect of having such a copy > in the future that I am willing to pay for cryonics (and yes, I > even value this situation equally with "survival" by > spatiotemporal continuity of cells), while a copy of you > would not elicit sufficient interest from you. I get what you are saying. But your right I wouldn't be sufficently satisified or enthusiastic. To me you are excepting that you will die (be materially decomposed and cease as a process) but are taking consolation that something just like you will be brought back to life (recomposed and started as a process via means which you conceed you do not in detail understand). Your diverting limited resources from solving problems or overcoming limits in your current you-process in order to endow life to some future you-process. Even though the current and future you-processes will not overlap in time. Correct? > ----------------------------------------- > > >>A question of value, not fact. > >> > >> > > > >That I exist as a biological being is a fact. That you do probably > >is also a fact. > > > > > ### Oh, sure, both of us have biological sides. Yet, we also have > IT-aspects, which I value, and you don't. Right. > ------------------------------ > > > > >Thats not a very scientific thing to say. How could you possible know > >that all academic detractors views come purely form ignorance? > > > > > ### I have not seen a single, coherent, scientific dismissal of > cryonics, despite reading on the subject for some time. All of them are > either silly one-liner quips ("you can't turn a hamburger into a cow"), > or pure expressions of faith ("it simply can't work"). Never any > numbers, any technical analysis. In fairness, why should anyone want to provide numbers or technical analysis? What is in it for them? To do that they'd have to take on a burden at some opportunity cost of time. If you had laid out numbers and technical analysis in detail yourself then they might do you the service of checking and perhaps correcting any errors etc. > Therefore, I am justified in treating > scientific detractors of cryonics as ignorant, since if they knew any > scientific arguments, they would have used them. That is a non sequitor. People generally need a reason to do work that your not paying then to do, they don't normally need a reason to avoid working for nothing. > ------------------------------------ > > >How could you even be sure that you know who all the academic > >detractors are? > > > ### I didn't use the universal quantifier. I only said "I can assure you > that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics comes purely from > ignorance", which doesn't exclude the possibility that a few know what > they are talking about it, but so far failed to publish it. But, if you > know any single, published, peer-reviewed dismissal of cryonics, give me > the link. So far as I know the best to-date attempt to outline a procedure by which cryonics might work is Merkle's Molecular Repair of the Brain. Unless he has radically rewritten and restructured it, then I think you'd have to be a pretty good friend of Merkle's to want to go to the trouble of trying to critique it in its current form. The paper is structured so badly. I did start to try and constructively criticise it but found that to do so I would have had to restructure and rewrite it first. As I didn't think the information theoretic criteria of death was valid I wasn't willing to go to that much trouble. I have a copy of a 1993 Alcor publication called "Cryonics Reaching for Tomorrow" 4th Edn. In it there is an Appendix B written by Greg Fahy "primarily out of intellectual curiosity in response to Dr Ralph Merkle's paper "The Molecular Repair of the Brain" ". Perhaps if Fahy wrote a "how to" paper on cryonics it might be good enough for professionals to consider critiquing. > ----------------------- > > >If you do have a precise notion of how it could work step by step > >then, if your notion is internally inconsistent I could possibly point > >that out to you. If its not internally inconsistent and its step by > >step - perhaps you'd have persuaded me. > > > >If you can't say what cryonics is for you, and outline a path at > >least as good as Ralph Merkle in his paper then it might be that > >I can't find an internal contradiction for you because your idea > >is not developed enough to be demonstrably wrong. > > > > > ### Well, here is how I imagine cryonics might work for me: > > Cryonic vitrification very soon after death (a few hours, hopefully a > few minutes) will preserve the brain structure down to the level of > synapses, with intact synaptic protein levels (which define the synaptic > strength), and the levels of other proteins, including transcription > factors in the nucleus, and most RNA and protein in the cytoplasm and > the ECM. Minutes vs hours? Death as determined how? Vitrification how? Down to (and including the synapses I presume) - you'd want your memories. To capture you personal synapse pattern you'd need nanoscale resolution. As you know neurons are not nicely rounded cells like one might find in a high school text book - they are more like tree or root structures and the structure matters. Proteins levels alone won't do it you need to know where the proteins (and not just the proteins) were when they were in their natural state. >In other words, AFAIK the only things that are lost are the > momentary concentrations of ions and the resulting short-time-frame > electric excitation patterns, which are not important for long-term and > medium term memories. > > After a period of storage, a laser tissue machining device coupled to a > multi-head near-field scanning confocal microscope array will evaporate > layers of tissue, while the surface will be washed with a mixture of > antibody stains (with quantum-dot labeling) for every single molecular > species identified in the decades of my suspension as being important > for the behavioral manifestations of consciousness. This will allow 3-D > reconstruction of the whole brain connection pattern including the > synaptic strengths (not possible using the microtome because of tissue > deformation, but doable using laser machining). That evaporate layers of tissue at what temperature? How do you stop the tissue below the surface layer from heating up and information getting lost before you determine it? 3D reconstruction onto what substrate? Surely not the same sort of organic substrate as originally - how would you put it together without it decomposing. And if on some other substrate how would you translate the infromation from the first substrate (unique info remember as memories can't be templated out) onto another substrate? > All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions > of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet > available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). You don't say how you will do important steps. You don't talk about algorithms for storing information, for translation that information into something that could be ported to another sunstrate. Do you break the brain sized stating material down into smaller pieces? How do you prevent loss of info due to cracking? How do you move pieces around? > Then a sufficiently powerful computer will construct a neural network > replicating the connectivity pattern and the synaptic strengths, as well > as the rules of modification of the synaptic strengths in the course of > information processing, producing a device which will be behaviorally > sufficiently similar to me as to satisfy my desires regarding future > states of the world (to silence critics I don't even need to say that I > have been "reincarnated" or "brought back to life", or "survived", or > any such rigmarole - I only say that both I today and the device in the > future are satisfied with this particular outcome, and consider the > cryonics money well-spent). > Does this describe a sufficiently developed idea? No. It really, really doesn't. If you want numbers and technical analysis in a critique (see your statement above) then you'd have to do a lot more work yourself. And before you can put numbers on things you have to do more than just name a few potential tools. Merkle did some of the necessary work (badly) in my view, but he missed a lot more. > Do you know of any specific technical issues which would prevent it > from working as advertised? You haven't really engaged with *any* key "how to" engineering problems at all. You'd need to do that in a much more detailed and structured way in order to invite criticism. Granted that is virtually impossible to do in an email. > I could come up with some ballpark > estimates of the file sizes, numbers of antibodies, speed of laser > machining, but these are all mere technical details (nothing that would > be unreasonably expensive or time-consuming, as far as I can tell). "as far as I can tell" is a very big statement. Unless you wade into the problem space with a serious engineering frame of mind you aren't even starting to think about the sort of engineering problems that you'd have to solve. > Of course, unexpected > developments in technology could make it easier (e.g. molecular > nanotechnology), but would not impact the general feasibility of the plan. And unappreciated complexity in the biology of the brain could make it harder. Brett Paatsch From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 07:10:12 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 00:10:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: References: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091500104eb4fcdb@mail.gmail.com> I think I see what you are getting at. But I would not call that being irrational. In fact, making yourself believe you can win the race even though you know you are running against a record-holder seems quite rational given the fact that faith in success is one of the prime components of a successful outcome. I'm not really much of a runner, and before a couple years ago had never done *any* distance running. Having reached my 40th birthday I decided it was now or never time for me to run a marathon. There were many, many times throughout my months of training where everything seemed to demonstrate to me that I'd never be able to do it. But I kept convincing myself I could do it, and surrounded myself with people who also encouraged me in that belief. I am certain that if I gave into the reasonable (if not rational) doubts about my chances of success I would have given up on the training and quit long before race day. I did everything I could to convince myself that my self-doubts were unfounded, even though those doubts had a very rational basis. But the whole time I was convincing myself I fully realized that my faith in my success would make it that much more likely that I'd actually be able to do it. I guess we could argue about it, but its seems to me that I was being very rational in my self-motivational techniques, rather than irrational. Zero On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:14:29 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I have many examples. Often you know that you do X better (X = sport, > business meeting, sex, ...) if you work yourself in a dreamy state of mind > where it is the only thing that matter so you give it total concentration > (they call this "flow" these days). But the belief that winning the dart > game at the pub is the most important thing in the world is irrational, > isn't it? (it is not so terribly important and there are probably other > things that you should be using your time for). > Sometimes when you want to achieve an objective you may choose to work > yourself in a positive state of mind where you firmly believe that you will > achieve it. This belief is irrational when you know that probabilities are > against you. But believing that you will win gives you some kind of positive > energy that (as far as the outcome does depend on how you play) actually > increases your chances. > I think we can make examples in artistic creation (I am not the right person > to do it as I have no artistic talent). > Sometimes you are just happier if you let yourself believe, for a little > while, things that you know are probably not correct. Being happier > energizes you and makes you perform better in other things. > In summary I think rationality is one of many behaviour modes that we can > choose, probably the best one most of the times but not the only one. The > best thing to do would be choosing (rationally) whether you want to think > and act rationally or not in a given situation (using for example what Greg > Egan calls "outlooks"). > G. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Zero Powers > Sent: mi?rcoles, 15 de septiembre de 2004 5:54 > To: Giu1i0 Pri5c0; ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality > > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you > talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. > picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior > actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the > desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? > > I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking about. > > Zero > > On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it > > into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform > > better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into > > an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? > > G. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 07:27:55 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:57:55 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Flybot, son of Slugbot Message-ID: <710b78fc040915002749b32085@mail.gmail.com> Self-sustaining killer robot creates a stink --- 15:13 09 September 04 Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues. It may eat flies and stink to high heaven, but if this robot works, it will be an important step towards making robots fully autonomous. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996366 ---- This restores my faith in humanity. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 15 07:28:02 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:28:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915063700.26000.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Can either of you tell me what is rational concerning sports? Even the most trained pro football or hockey player for example risks seriously damaging their health, or being crippled. Boxers have been killed by a single punch. Though many pros make millions per year they can augment their health insurance with, does it appear rational they would want to take the ever-present risk of harming their tendons joints bones, in merely chasing a little ball or puck around a field? Is it rational for them to face excruciating pain, even for a short while? Is it rational for fans to become hysterical and riot after sports events? ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 08:22:53 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:22:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040915063700.26000.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520409150122720a9def@mail.gmail.com> This is exactly my point. It is not very rational, but as long as you can have fun either doing sport or watching it without harming anyone, what's wrong? On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:28:02 +0100 (BST), Trend Ologist wrote: > Can either of you tell me what is rational concerning > sports? Even the most trained pro football or hockey > player for example risks seriously damaging their > health, or being crippled. Boxers have been killed by > a single punch. Though many pros make millions per > year they can augment their health insurance with, > does it appear rational they would want to take the > ever-present risk of harming their tendons joints > bones, in merely chasing a little ball or puck around > a field? Is it rational for them to face excruciating > pain, even for a short while? > > Is it rational for fans to become hysterical and riot > after sports events? From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 15 08:34:56 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:34:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4147FEB0.4050903@mail.tele.dk> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to > learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit > to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day > seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for > relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that > darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over the > things you want to believe. The problem with rationality is that we are emotional beasts. You cannot use complete rationalism for anything. There is no rational reason to create a super intelligence, as it all rest on the premise that life is a good thing. But from a rational point of view it isn't. Only life itself cares whether life existst or not. And that premise is based entirely on feelings. Eg. there is no rational reason to keep on living at all. Yet I would beg to differ ;-) Furthermore we are imperfect beings. So while we might know rationally what to do, it can be very hard to actually do the right thing. But we are usually bright enough to understand that we are not doing the right thing. Like eating too much, excersising too little, spending too much money on unnessecary things etc. So if you expect yourself to act completely rational, you will only get depressed as you discover your own inadeqacies. Besides, acting rational while working, thinking discovering etc. is exciting, but sports, sex, love, food etc. is fun. I won't forsake what is fun for rationality. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 15 09:46:18 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:46:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <470a3c520409150122720a9def@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915094618.42864.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Agreed, Giulio. Though I don't like violent sports, if athletes want to harm themselves in sports, it is their business. If freak-show performers want to get paid for eating excrement, that is their business. What I resent is violent sports enthusiasts and war film buffs telling me porn is immoral. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 12:40:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915124018.75954.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you > talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. > picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior > actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the > desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? > > I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking > about. It's pretty plain that any activity requiring right brain dominance is performed better when one is not being rational. This includes sports, art, acting. When you are 'in the zone' on anything, you are no longer working in your rational centers, but operating strictly on an intuitive instinctive basis. Been there, done that, and it can be exhilerating. Your rational mind can only be amazed that you are capable of doing these things without its strict control... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 12:42:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091500104eb4fcdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915124227.28854.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > > I did everything I could to convince myself that my self-doubts were > unfounded, even though those doubts had a very rational basis. But > the whole time I was convincing myself I fully realized that my faith > in my success would make it that much more likely that I'd actually > be > able to do it. I guess we could argue about it, but its seems to me > that I was being very rational in my self-motivational techniques, > rather than irrational. Sorry, zero, you were being entirely loopy. Welcome to the club. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 12:52:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915125218.22200.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Can either of you tell me what is rational concerning > sports? Even the most trained pro football or hockey > player for example risks seriously damaging their > health, or being crippled. Boxers have been killed by > a single punch. Though many pros make millions per > year they can augment their health insurance with, > does it appear rational they would want to take the > ever-present risk of harming their tendons joints > bones, in merely chasing a little ball or puck around > a field? Is it rational for them to face excruciating > pain, even for a short while? Some find pain addictive, and some find the 'second wind' addictive. Still others revel in adulation of fans, or in having set a world record, or in just maintaining oneself in peak physical condition. Having broken my back in a skiing accident at age 19, I can attest to this. I can categorically say that all the time I spend skiing, and ski racing, in the years before and since that accident outweigh by lightyears the pain I endured for a few months then and occasionally do now when I overextend myself. Looking forward to medical advances to prevent me from eventually contracting arthritis in that area of my back is no less rational than looking forward to nanotech to save my frozen corpsicle. > > Is it rational for fans to become hysterical and riot > after sports events? No, it isn't. But it does add excitement to what would otherwise be an incredibly dull life in some dull job and dull family and dull community in a dull nanny-state that wants to take care of you from cradle to grave (except of course when you are getting mugged). That such individuals have been bred that way by a pathetic public education system, and public welfare system is another issue entirely, but irrational government will create an irrational society. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jef at jefallbright.net Wed Sep 15 13:47:43 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:47:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <1095205868.87920b40namacdon@ole.augie.edu> References: <1095205868.87920b40namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Message-ID: <414847FF.50302@jefallbright.net> Nicholas Anthony MacDonald wrote: > Jef Allbright wrote: > > A rational approach to life includes both "rational" in the > > mathematical sense, and "rational" in the pragmatic sense. We > > INTJs have a hard time accepting this -- it's messy, but it works. > > > Precisely because it's the domain of us INTP's- we're the ones who > typically end up trying to figure out how to integrate man's > irrationality- and you end up cleaning up after us. :) > Integration is a key point. I've learned and grown a lot by living with someone very different from myself and dealing with life experiences, none of which I would have chosen on a rational basis at the time. A problem with trying to apply strict rationality is that we tend to paint ourselves into the corner, rationally attempting to maximize outcomes based on woefully incomplete knowledge. Strict rationality under incomplete knowledge (and it's always incomplete knowledge) can lead to terrible decisions up to war and genocide. What's typically missing in "rational" analysis is awareness of the Bayesian prior that what got us to where we are now (our evolved nature) is what worked and therefore carries weight as part of a successful strategy. Another problem is the economic one. This is why going with the flow, or being in the zone, is often rational in the pragmatic sense. In sports or battle, or when dealing with complex real-time situations (read: interpersonal relations), there isn't time to effectively analyze the available data in a rational way. To succeed in these situations one has to rely on one's "toolbox" of responses, pattern-matching to meet the situation rather than analyzing. How you look at is is all a matter of context and scope, and in the bigger picture, it's all completely rational and what works survives and grows. - Jef http://www.jefallbright.net From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 15 13:47:14 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:47:14 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links References: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> Message-ID: <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> Hi Alex, Do you know how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do neurons pack at their tightest and most dense? Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get between them. In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because the space may be as little as 10s of nanometres in places (and the space map would be different for every brain - more different than variations in vasculature) and no nanobot with a payload worth a damn could get much smaller than a half a micron I'd guessimate. Cheers, Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Ramonsky To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org ; mind-l at yahoogroups.com ; murg at minduploading.org ; sag ; extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com ; fusioncore at yahoogroups.com ; technocalypse at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links Nice neuro links to dive into: ****************** http://brainmuseum.org/index.html (massive collection of mammalian brains) http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/index.html (lots of diverse topics) http://www.neuroguide.com/index.html (neuroscience resources. This site can be a bugger to navigate) http://www.psy.ed.ac.uk/psychexps/Exps/experiments.html (psychology experiments) http://psych.hanover.edu/Research/exponnet.html (psychology experiments) http://www.beemnet.com/dana/virtuallabs.html (more invasive techniques. If squeamish bring sick bag) http://www.ucsf.edu/neurosc/faculty/Sretavan/freeze.html (Axon growth. -Massive file; don't go there without broadband) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ (Biotechnology. The link 'OMIM' takes you to the Online Inheritance in Man site) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/madsweb/ (animations & pdf files about various bits of brain) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/sensesweb/ (animation of learning & memory.) http://www.uwm.edu/~johnchay/cc.htm (classical conditioning -you get to play with the variables. Entertaining when drunk.) Sites about motivation: http://www.nida.nih.gov/ http://www.lsa.umich.edu/psych/research&labs/berridge/Research.html Sites about emotion: http://mambo.ucsc.edu/psl/fanl.html http://www.unige.ch/fapse/emotion/ http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/Common/Research/cognition-emotion/index.shtml http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/emotion/ http://emotion.salk.edu/Emotion/EmoRes/Psych/SelTops.html Sites about consciousness: http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ccsmain/Tucson2002/Tucson2002index.htm http://www.imprint.co.uk/jcs.html http://jamaica.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/ *********************** Enjoy! AR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Wed Sep 15 14:24:53 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:24:53 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links In-Reply-To: <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1095258293.10472.25.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2004-09-15 at 23:47 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Do you know how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on > neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do > neurons pack at > their tightest and most dense? > > Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale > limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get > between them. > > In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the > extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because > the space may be > as little as 10s of nanometres in places (and the space map would be > different for every brain - more different than variations in > vasculature) and > no nanobot with a payload worth a damn could get much smaller than a > half a micron I'd guessimate. > Glial cells everywhere. Kill a couple and nobody will notice if you replace them with off the shelf models. Else, cut, go through, and repair once on the other side. (talking out of my ass, as per usual, and you did seem to imply nano-santas. plus i've got an extra-boring assignment on the other line). alejandro From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 13:58:29 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] ONLY 1.1 BILLION YEARS LEFT! Message-ID: <20040915135829.78249.qmail@web50802.mail.yahoo.com> AlwaysOn and Viewpoint West Partners: "Another interesting scenario is of course The Singularity. This term has a number of interpretations and refinements, like: 'a future time when societal, scientific and economic change is so fast we cannot even imagine what will happen from our present perspective, and when humanity will become posthumanity.' Some, like Vernor Vinge, go even further in discussing 'Intelligence Amplification' in the 'Post Human', i.e. Post Singularity, era where life is infinitely long. Intelligence Amplifiers, by the way, are future networks of huge capacity with incredible human / computer interaction. Vernor relates: '...This 'problem' about immortality comes up in much more direct ways. The notion of ego and self-awareness has been the bedrock of the hardheaded rationalism of the last few centuries. Yet now the notion of self-awareness is under attack from the Artificial Intelligence people ('self-awareness and other delusions'). Intelligence Amplification undercuts our concept of ego from another direction. The post-Singularity world will involve extremely high-bandwidth networking. A central feature of strongly superhuman entities will likely be their ability to communicate at variable bandwidths, including ones far higher than speech or written messages. What happens when pieces of ego can be copied and merged, when the size of a selfawareness can grow or shrink to fit the nature of the problems under consideration? These are essential features of strong superhumanity and the Singularity. Thinking about them, one begins to feel how essentially strange and different the Post-Human era will be -- _no matter how cleverly and benignly it is brought to be_ ...' Surely, the Post Humans can figure out how to deal with a Red Giant, right? If not, then I'd love to be in the moving box business in about a billion years, assuming there is somewhere to actually move to." http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=5731_0_5_0_C#215171095188533 http://www.vpwpartners.com/2004/09/only_11_billion.html From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 15:30:53 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] They are scared Message-ID: <20040915153053.4975.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> I must confess that I am very fond of Fukuyama's "The World's Most Dangerous Ideas - Transhumanism", appeared on Foreign Policy a few weeks ago. Of course I don't agree with Fukuyama: I completely agree with the replies of Ron Bailey and Nick Bostrom: http://www.reason.com/rb/rb082504.shtml http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/bostrom-responds-to-fukuyama/ Despite "dismiss transhumanists as some sort of odd cult, nothing more than science fiction taken too seriously", which used to be the mainstream attitude, Fukuyama now respects transhumanism as a dangerous enemy and acknowledges that "the new procedures and technologies emerging from research laboratories and hospitals-whether mood-altering drugs, substances to boost muscle mass or selectively erase memory, prenatal genetic screening, or gene therapy-can as easily be used to "enhance" the species as to ease or ameliorate illness". And we should thank him for "as transhumanists see it, humans must wrest their biological destiny from evolution's blind process of random variation and adaptation and move to the next stage as a species", a very good compact description of our worldview. Why do I like this paper? Because it shows how technophobes and bioluddites are beginning to realize that transhumanism makes sense, perhaps much more sense than their pointless appeals to ill-conceived and nebulous notions of "human dignity", "humility" (what a stupid word), and "reverence", and that more and more people may see things our way in the near future. They see that a powerful storm is coming and are scared to death. They still have all the advantages: they represent the mainstream, have well funded think tanks with paid skilled staff, and are listened to by policy makers, while transhumanists are often still perceived as a fringe group of volunteer activists with a half-baked philosophy. But they are probably realizing that sooner or later, sooner if we make the right moves, transhumanists may well have the same resources, maturity and status. At that point we will be very close to winning the battle because, all other factors being equal, we will have the advantage that our ideas make much more sense. Reading Fukuyama's paper really boosted my morale and motivation, so difficult to keep for volunteer activists: I can see that we are beginning to hurt them. From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Sep 15 16:18:45 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:18:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen In-Reply-To: <6DC769CE-064E-11D9-B7A6-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <6DC769CE-064E-11D9-B7A6-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: Hey just be clear when I said "seen" I meant "saw", as in "took a photo of" that sort of thing. Not simply, ho hum "detected". Have a look at Figure 1. > full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf best, patrick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 16:47:05 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915164705.61696.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> THe images didn't load on this. --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Hey just be clear when I said "seen" I meant "saw", as in "took a > photo > of" that sort of thing. Not simply, ho hum "detected". Have a look at > > Figure 1. > > > full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jonkc at att.net Wed Sep 15 17:20:09 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:20:09 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com><03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc><470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc><4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org><029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc><414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <014201c49b48$45558680$e9fe4d0c@hal2001> "Brett Paatsch" > I wouldn't think that perfect clone was me. In this case your opinion is not important, the important thing is if the perfect clone thinks it was you or not, you can think whatever you like. If the clone was made 10 seconds ago then the two are no longer perfect and the clone would no longer think it was you because he could not remember being you for the last 10 second. If the clone was made 10 nanoseconds ago things would be very different. > And I don't think that clone could be created because I don't think > the information to create it could be gathered to the requisite > resolution without destroying the original me in the process. Who cares. Which is the original, the 10 year old Brett Paatsch, the 10 month old Brett Paatsch or the one day old zygote Brett Paatsch? And is there any way to prove that you are not a copy of the original (whatever that means) and is there any reason to care if you were? John K Clark jonkc at att.net From velvethum at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 18:12:48 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (s. p.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:12:48 +0000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) Message-ID: >Who cares. Which is the original, the 10 year old Brett Paatsch, the 10 >month old Brett Paatsch or the one day old zygote Brett Paatsch? I hope you don't mind if I answer this. Brett at 10 years old is the same at 20 because his mind process never degenerated into, one, non-mind process, two, a mind process that is not Brett's process. He is the same because his mind process has been carving out the same, uninterupted line of three-dimensional chunks in space-time. That's why he has maintained his originality throughout his life. Memories/experiences aqcuired throughout person's life do not define identity. They do define his personality and psychological make-up, not his identity. And is >there any way to prove that you are not a copy of the original Yes, there is. Identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in space-time. There's room for only one mind process in the fabric of space time. Even a perfect clone will always maintain different trajectory from the original. (whatever >that means) and is there any reason to care if you were? If you value living then you should care because if the original you gets killed, the film ends, and you won't live, even though your clones might. Your personality will exist, but your subjective experience will register the same input as when you were unborn. Forever. Slawomir _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From megao at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 17:42:57 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:42:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41487F20.5CFE2BF7@sasktel.net> This fellow with Agriculture Canada was looking for a gmail acct: If he gets more than 1 he has at least one associate Maureen who would likely use it. From: Regnier, Dale To: orin at sasktel.net Cc: mfj.eav at gmail.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:56:43 -0400 Subject: Gmail address Hello: Morris Johnson said you had a gmail address you weren?t using and that I could make use of. Please let me know ASAP. Thanks. My home internet address is: der at sasktel.net Thanks, Dale E. Regnier Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada/Agriculture et Agroalimentaire Canada Telephone/T?l?phone: 306-848-4492 Facsimile/T?l?copieur: 306-848-4499 615 Railway Avenue Weyburn, Saskatchewan S4H 0A9 regnierd at agr.gc.ca Samantha Atkins wrote: > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > would like one. > > > > - Jef > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From benboc at lineone.net Wed Sep 15 19:42:55 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:42:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Neuro links In-Reply-To: <200409151349.i8FDnb016062@tick.javien.com> References: <200409151349.i8FDnb016062@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41489B3F.2040209@lineone.net> Brett Paatsch wrote: "how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do neurons pack at their tightest and most dense? Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get between them. In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because the space may be as little as 10s of nanometres in places" That's an interesting question, but it does occur to me that neurons are not hard structures, but soft and squishy, and their membranes are more like liquid planes than solid sheets of stuff. Perhaps nanobots could 'swim' in or through the membranes, so that the packing density of the cells isn't so much of an issue. They shouldn't do any damage, as the membrane would just seal up behind them. One thing that nanobots might need to do is get into tight junctions. There is *no* space between cells there! ben From amara.graps at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 20:01:44 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:01:44 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Etna Talks in her Sleep Message-ID: Last September 7, a new fissure opened on the southeastern side of Etna Volcano in Sicily. I went to see with my own eyes because seeing Etna erupt has been a small dream of mine for some years. No fountains, but a wide lava flow is in progress, and last Monday night (September 13-14), I saw a sputtering vent, called a 'hornito' let loose for a few hours, shooting clumps of lava in all directions. Seeing photos is one thing, but seeing (and hearing!) these processes from a few to 100 meters away is entirely different. The raw power of the Earth opening its mouth left me a little bit breathless. The scientist in me was telling my other side how I am witnessing the energy left from the formation of the Earth and the subsequent meteoritic impacts, but the nonscientific part of me didn't care. Seeing this at night on the top of the mountain with the city of Catania (~600,000) below and the Milky Way above, will be one of the most beautiful experiences in my life. Because I was with experienced Etna guides, I could be there, but where were the other volcanologists and guides? We were alone. My two friends and I were the only ones (besides the web cam) seeing this beautiful sight while 600,000 people below us slept. I hope they were dreaming in technicolored lava. I'll point you to some photos (my friends are excellent volcano photographers) when they are ready. Amara Live Webcam on the lava flow (terrible video!) set up by the Italian Forestry service: http://etna2004.videobank.it/ Volcano Etna Rumbles Back into Life http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=39080 From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 15 20:10:25 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:10:25 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bart Kosko in Los Angeles Times Op-Ed Message-ID: <125150-220049315201025164@M2W085.mail2web.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENTARY Terror Threat May Be Mostly a Big Bluff The facts point to overestimation by a frightened U.S. By Bart Kosko Bart Kosko teaches probability and statistics at USC, where he is a professor of electrical engineering. He is author of "Heaven in a Chip" (Random House, 2000). September 13, 2004 Just what is the evidence for this alleged terrorist threat that now dominates foreign affairs and the presidential election? The third anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks on the Pentagon and New York's World Trade Center has come and gone without any terrorist attacks in the U.S. No terrorists attacked the Olympics in Greece, as so many feared. Nor did they attack the Republican convention in New York. And the big statistical picture of terrorism has changed little in years. Deaths because of terrorism worldwide have increased a bit lately (especially after the school attack in Russia), but the number still remains on the order of about a thousand deaths a year, according to the State Department ? a small fraction of the 15,000 or so murders each year in the United States, or the 40,000 who die in car accidents. The Bush administration and many others interpret these facts as proof that the government is winning its "war on terror" (even though Osama bin Laden still roams free and threatens from afar). And they may be right. It's conceivable that there would have been some attacks by now if not for the government's stepped-up security at home and its vigorous anti-terrorism efforts abroad. We don't know. We do know that studies of our statistical competency show both that we systematically overestimate the probability of vivid, high-profile threats such as shark bites and terrorist bombings and that we poorly estimate the probability of less glamorous dangers like highway fatalities. The comparative absence of terrorism could just as easily (and I believe, more reasonably) support the very different conclusion that we have overestimated ? grossly overestimated ? the terrorist threat. We may be "winning" a war against terrorism simply because there are few terrorists out there posing a serious threat to the U.S. We may have traded substantial civil liberties and international goodwill in the last three years for a lot more security than we need. Answering these questions involves a subtle type of formal reasoning called negative evidence: Sometimes a search that finds nothing is evidence that there is nothing. Suppose you shop in a store and then can't find your car keys. How much of the store must you search before you conclude the keys are not there? The negative evidence for this conclusion grows as the search widens and finds nothing. The strength of the negative evidence depends on the size and complexity of the search area. For instance, we have good negative evidence that there is no Loch Ness monster because no sonar sweep of the Scottish lake has found such a creature. We have less good negative evidence that there is no Bigfoot because we have not fully searched the larger and more complex area of pine forests in Northern California. And we have no good negative evidence at all that we are alone in the cosmos because we have just started to search the vast heavens for signs of structured energy. The war in Iraq gives a telling example of negative evidence. The coalition forces still cannot find the alleged stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. The weapons may be there, but the negative evidence that they are not grows stronger each day as a wider search finds nothing. The Bush administration has said, in effect, that it is better to be safe than sorry, not just with regard to weapons of mass destruction in Iraq but with terrorist threats at home. The trouble is that all bureaucracies have a well-known incentive to over-rely on being safe than sorry. No one wants to risk approving a new drug or airplane design that has even a slight chance of killing someone, even if the drug can save lives or the design can greatly increase flight efficiency. A related problem is that terrorists have an incentive to exaggerate their strength in order to frighten their opponents and to attract recruits and donations. The result is an inadvertent global equilibrium where governments play it safe by overestimating the terrorist threat, while the terrorists oblige by overestimating their power. A tight presidential race only heightens these perverse incentives all around. The bottom line is this: There will always be terrorists and legitimate efforts to catch and kill them. But meanwhile, the bigger statistical threat comes from the driver next to you who is talking on the cellphone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From rafal at smigrodzki.org Wed Sep 15 22:19:08 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:19:08 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <4148BFDC.3090208@smigrodzki.org> Brett Paatsch wrote: >Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > >> Thus, the concept of "identity" is >>in fact a whole slew of related but distinct concepts, with >>different properties and referents. >> >> > >I've no problem with this but it doesn't seem relevant here. As >Slawomir Paliwoda says in his excellent post on Personal Identity, >"personal identity depends on a mind powered by the brain which is >a physical object, and like all other objects, it can and should be >subject to scientific investigation." > >And .... "once we agree that, in science, there's only one correct >explanation for something at the exclusion of other theories, we can >say that there can only be one explanation/description of personal >identity that is true and all other theories are false." > > ### Now, this is news to me: do you think that Euclid's parallel axiom is true? False? Neither? Non-scientific? Or more: since the taste of rocquefort depends on chemical interactions, which are subject to scientific investigation, what is the correct taste of rocquefort? Generally, science doesn't necessarily produce exclusive either/or results, and doesn't directly make normative statements. The statement: "I like the idea of having a self-similar material structure in the future" is normative, and its normative content *may not* be subject to verification - just as the normative content of your statement "I don't care about having self-similar material structures in the future, except if produced by continuity (of sorts) with my present structure". ------------------------------------ > > >>I accept that your (Brett Paatch's) identity is what you say, since >>this is what is produced by the processes in your brain (and my >>meta-rule for such definitions is that they are produced by the >>brains in a self-referential manner) . It's a fact, albeit a fact >>pertaining only to Brett Paatsch. Now, my own, Rafal's identity >>is defined differently. It is also a fact. Although the definitions >>are different, they are not contradictory - they apply to different >>objects, just like the varied definitions of an "original" in the art >>world. Even though your definition of self is different from mine >>(not even analogous), I do not think you are mistaken - merely >>different. Do you see the point? >> >> > >Yes, I understand what your saying, but I think that you have >gone off on a tangent. You are taking us away from a discussion >on cryonics and of the obstacles cryonics would inevitably have >to overcome to be of interest to people like you and I. That is >people that currently have our sense of self located in our brains. > > ### No, I am not going off at a tangent - because I am not like you. My sense of self is not "located" in my brain, it's located in my personality-defining information-like structures. ---------------------------- > You are currently located in >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to >be of interest to either of us. > > > ### Yes, my personality-defining information is inscribed in my brain, currently. My aspirations for cryonics deal with this excellently. --------------------------------------- >>In other words, you are a universalist, believing that a >>single definition of self (your own) is the only correct one >>("all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense >>of self....."), while I am a pluralist, letting everyone decide >>where their own (and only their own) identities lie. >> >> > >You've split my sentence in the middle when you quote me >above. I'd said "all members of the species homo sapiens have >their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain". >That is not me defining a self concept. That is me pointing out >that whatever our self concepts are they are *located* if we >are homo sapiens in our brain structure. > > ### I don't know how you can claim that a concept is "located" anywhere. A concept may be written down in a particular book, or be embodied in a patented machine, but the word "located" should only be used for material objects. Let me quote your full paragraph to which I referred above: "I do think all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain. I think that it is a mistake to think that someone who is now a homo sapiens can be abstracted out of their cellular substrate and yet somehow continue to exist as disembodied pattern and then to be re-instantiated again. I think that the self is lost in the process." In other words, you say that for all humans, sense of self is "inherent" in the brain and is inevitably lost during transfer of information. The use of the universal qualifier makes it sound like a definition, insisting that for all humans, whatever is transferred ("re-instantiated") cannot be self. ----------------------------------- >>If you mean "functioning without any material substrate", then no, >>of course not. >> >> > >Ok. So you think you would cease to exist as "you" while you exist >only as a dataset of information for building you at a later date? > > ### What do you mean by "exist"? I would exist as static information, I would not exist as a conscious information processor. -------------------------------- >Sort of cake - recipe -cake. While your a recipe your not a cake. > > ### Yes, sure, I have no problem with existing as a recipe. I am both a recipe and a cake at this time (I can be used as source of information for making copies and I keep processing information at the same time), in the future I might temporarily exist as a recipe only, and then resume normal functioning. ------------------------------------ >>> <>### Let me ask you something: do you think that it could be in >>> principle >>> possible to analyze the material structure of your brain, and use the >>> information to make a brain which would behave in a way consistent >>> (similar enough) with you (e.g. identify pictures of your mother as "My >>> mother", or on seeing things you like say it likes them, etc.etc.)? >> > >It might be. In principle. It might be possible to create what Slawomir >Paliwoda calls a perfect clone. I wouldn't think that perfect clone was >me. And I don't think that clone could be created because I don't think >the information to create it could be gathered to the requisite resolution >without destroying the original me in the process. > > ### No, I didn't ask about the "perfect clone" - I merely asked about a copy which would behave consistently with you (have largely the same responses to the same stimuli as you do). The exact level of similarity here might be as low as that sufficient to fool all the persons you know into believing the copy is actually you. Whether making such a copy can be achieved without disassembly of you is not relevant to the question. And yes, I already know you wouldn't see the clone as "you". ------------------------------------------ >>But, if you agree that a sufficiently >>advanced technology could produce such a brain, then you >>cannot say we disagree about facts. >> >> > >I can conceed the possibility, but I don't find it worth giving >a lot of thought too, given that I realise I would not be my >"perfect clone". And there are plenty of other 'facts' yet for >us to disagree over. > > ### Great! You agree that the disagreement is about value - you "don't find it worth giving a lot of thought to"! This is the point - you are not interested in having such a clone, but I am. ----------------------------------------------- > > >>Both you and me would agree that it is physically possible >>to make copies of our brains that would act similarly to the >>originals. The only difference is that I am sufficiently satisfied >>with/enthusiastic about the prospect of having such a copy >>in the future that I am willing to pay for cryonics (and yes, I >>even value this situation equally with "survival" by >>spatiotemporal continuity of cells), while a copy of you >>would not elicit sufficient interest from you. >> >> > >I get what you are saying. But your right I wouldn't be sufficently >satisified or enthusiastic. To me you are excepting that you >will die (be materially decomposed and cease as a process) but >are taking consolation that something just like you will be >brought back to life (recomposed and started as a process via >means which you conceed you do not in detail understand). > >Your diverting limited resources from solving problems or >overcoming limits in your current you-process in order to endow >life to some future you-process. Even though the current and >future you-processes will not overlap in time. Correct? > > ### Yes, exactly! This is indeed the case, whether you call dying-and-recomposing, or and I call it "survival", this is indeed the case. In the future (e.g. after my premature death in an explosion of a liquid nitrogen tank :) my recomposed copy may contact you, and while acknowledging that by your definition I am dead and he is somebody else, he tells you he remembers from a first-person perspective our present discussion, and that life is great, he's been boozin' an' humpin' like in the old times. Ain't cryonics great, or what? --------------------------------- > > >In fairness, why should anyone want to provide numbers or technical >analysis? What is in it for them? To do that they'd have to take on a >burden at some opportunity cost of time. If you had laid out numbers >and technical analysis in detail yourself then they might do you the service >of checking and perhaps correcting any errors etc. > > ### Opinions of scientists are valuable only insofar as they rely on superior knowledge and technical analysis. Without these, scientist's opinions about a subject (e.g. rocquefort or cryonics) are not any more significant than the opinions of carpenters or business executives. The technical analysis must be disclosed for verification, or else it's reasonable to infer that the opinion is groundless (based on ignorance). --------------------------------------- > > >> Therefore, I am justified in treating >>scientific detractors of cryonics as ignorant, since if they knew any >>scientific arguments, they would have used them. >> >> > >That is a non sequitor. People generally need a reason to do >work that your not paying then to do, they don't normally need a reason to >avoid working for nothing. > > ### Some scientists offer unsolicited opinions about cryonics without facts and numbers - why? Nobody is paying them to do so. -------------------------------- >>### Well, here is how I imagine cryonics might work for me: >> >>Cryonic vitrification very soon after death (a few hours, hopefully a >>few minutes) will preserve the brain structure down to the level of >>synapses, with intact synaptic protein levels (which define the synaptic >>strength), and the levels of other proteins, including transcription >>factors in the nucleus, and most RNA and protein in the cytoplasm and >>the ECM. >> >> > >Minutes vs hours? > ### There is some mild ultrastructural damage within 20 minutes of warm ischemia (mitochondrial swelling), and after 24 hours there is visible retraction of a significant number of synapses. Therefore, loss of personality-defining information occurs somewhere during that time, probably no less than 5-6 hours. Anything less than 30 minutes should be perfectly safe, based on imaging of vitrified samples. --------------------------------- > Death as determined how? > ### By cessation of heartbeat. ------------------------------- > Vitrification how? > ### Using Alcor's current procedure. ------------------------------ > Down >to (and including the synapses I presume) - you'd want your memories. >To capture you personal synapse pattern you'd need nanoscale >resolution. > ### The resolution provided by a near-field scanning optical microscope is more than sufficient (goes down to 32 nm) to image synapses (500 - 5000 nm). A confocal scanning microscope has lower resolution but still sufficient to image synapses (and even actin filaments). ----------------------------------------- > As you know neurons are not nicely rounded cells like one >might find in a high school text book - they are more like tree or root >structures and the structure matters. > ### I do not get my information about neurons from high school textbooks. ------------------------------- > Proteins levels alone won't do >it you need to know where the proteins (and not just the proteins) >were when they were in their natural state. > > ### This is why you need to use a confocal or near-field scanning microscope, as described. Non-proteinaceous molecular species can also be detected by antibodies. In the unlikely case of nucleic acids assays being necessary, oligonucleotide in situ hybridization can be used (FISH). You can actually see single molecules in a regular microscope in this way. ---------------------------------- > >That evaporate layers of tissue at what temperature? > ### Up to 10 000 kelvin, same as in a commercial lasik or other tissue machining system. ---------------------------- > How do you stop >the tissue below the surface layer from heating up and information getting >lost before you determine it? > > ### Using very short laser pulses of the correct frequency. Published data describe no visible ultrastructural damage beyond a few hundred nanometers with conventional lasik, and that is much less than the depth of focus for a scanning confocal microscope. -------------------------------------- >3D reconstruction onto what substrate? > ### 3D computational model. -------------------------------- >Surely not the same sort of >organic substrate as originally - how would you put it together without >it decomposing. And if on some other substrate how would you translate >the infromation from the first substrate (unique info remember as memories >can't be templated out) onto another substrate? > > ### What do you mean by "templated out"? ------------------- > > >>All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions >>of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet >>available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). >> >> > >You don't say how you will do important steps. You don't talk about >algorithms >for storing information, > ### Algorithms? The intermediate scan data can be stored as any other form of digital imaging data. ---------------------------------- > for translation that information into something >that >could be ported to another sunstrate. > > ### Explain? ------------------------ >Do you break the brain sized stating material down into smaller pieces? > > ### Do you mean if I work on the whole brain or first cut it up? No, this method would not require prior dissection. ----------------------- >How do you prevent loss of info due to cracking? > ### Since nanoscale information about the structure of the crack surfaces would be available, the cracked surfaces can be apposed in the 3D model, just like freeze-fractured cell surfaces can be matched in the freeze-fracture scanning electron microscope. ------------------------------------------ > How do you move >pieces around? > > > ### Pieces? ------------------------ >>Then a sufficiently powerful computer will construct a neural network >>replicating the connectivity pattern and the synaptic strengths, as well >>as the rules of modification of the synaptic strengths in the course of >>information processing, producing a device which will be behaviorally >>sufficiently similar to me as to satisfy my desires regarding future >>states of the world (to silence critics I don't even need to say that I >>have been "reincarnated" or "brought back to life", or "survived", or >>any such rigmarole - I only say that both I today and the device in the >>future are satisfied with this particular outcome, and consider the >>cryonics money well-spent). >> >> > > > >>Does this describe a sufficiently developed idea? >> >> > >No. It really, really doesn't. If you want numbers and technical analysis >in a critique (see your statement above) then you'd have to do a lot more >work yourself. And before you can put numbers on things you have to >do more than just name a few potential tools. > ### Wait - you wanted to have an outline of "how cryonics might work for me", to prevent misunderstandings and ambiguities, and not discuss an idea so insufficiently developed that it would start mutating under analysis, like a religious concept (at least this is how I read your question). The outline I gave suffices to define my proposed cryonics approach. Now, if are you ready to give me a technical critique yourself , tell me which additional data do you need, and which numbers that I provided above and below do you disagree with. --------------------------- > >You haven't really engaged with *any* key "how to" engineering problems >at all. > ### I engaged: - how to freeze - how to collect information and I hinted at how the information could be used. What other key engineering problems do you see here? ----------------------------------- >>I could come up with some ballpark >>estimates of the file sizes, numbers of antibodies, speed of laser >>machining, but these are all mere technical details (nothing that would >>be unreasonably expensive or time-consuming, as far as I can tell). >> >> > >"as far as I can tell" is a very big statement. Unless you wade into the >problem space with a serious engineering frame of mind you aren't even >starting to think about the sort of engineering problems that you'd have >to solve. > > ### OK, you have about 1700 cubic centimeters of tissue (actually less if you can find methods for substituting generic information for some subcortical brain areas not involved in personal episodic memories, the main type of memories I want to have analyzed). At a resolution of 50 cubic nanometers (more than sufficient to show synapses) there would be 13.6 x 10^12 voxels. The imaging procedure would need to reliably image probably no less than 70% of synaptic connections (given the known redundancy of the brain, but Anders could perhaps give us more details), and estimate the synaptic strengths to within 10% of their true values (there is some degree of drift of synaptic strengths in the living brain, which means you don't need to be very precise in measuring, but exactly how much you can drift and still get largely the same behavioral effects is unknown). The range of values for synaptic strength should not be significantly above 8-bit depth. Given that there are many hundreds of types of synapses, the actual number of bits per voxel might be as high 20 to 25. Some of the data would be needed to describe cellular membranous structures, as well as post-translationally modified proteins. All in all the uncompressed image of the structural substrate of personality might be on the order of 10^20 bit. This is only a few thousand petabytes, not an unreasonable data volume to work on in 20 years from now. The computing capacity needed to transform this uncompressed image into a functionally equivalent neural network simulation is quite large by today's standards, but given the estimates of Moravec, the processing power needed to actually run the neural network is unlikely to be many orders of magnitude more than 100 teraflops/s, a capacity available even now. Criticize technically now, please : ) Rafal From rafal at smigrodzki.org Wed Sep 15 23:02:27 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:02:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Personal Identity (was: A view on cryonics) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4148CA03.9060305@smigrodzki.org> Hi Slawek, s. p. wrote: > Well, don't get me wrong. "Mind pattern defines personal identity" > theory is > not entirely false. The reason why it breaks down so easily when > applied to > even most basic thought experiments is the same as why it is not entirely > false - it's simply not a complete/precise theory because it focuses > on just one > of the aspects of what PI is. Obviously, to some extent, PI depends on > the > mind pattern in a sense that if mind pattern changes or is damaged, it > must > influence PI, but is that all there is to it? ### Somehow I don't recall any thought experiments of yours that would make my feeling of personal identity break down. Can you refresh my memory? If I recall correctly, at some point I had you claiming that forcibly erasing all your memories by rearranging synaptic strengths into a totally different personality wouldn't really kill you as long as your brain was going on living.Wasn't that a cool thought experiment? ----------------------------- > > Example: Suppose some person uploads his mind pattern onto 2 machines > which now > run his mind. > > Question: Do these coexisting uploads share the same PI? > > Answer: They do not, because each mind process is defined by parameters > (matter in space-time) that do not share the same exact values. These > uploads share the same *kind* of mind process but their identities are > different. They are not the same person but perfect clones only. ### If they are my uploads, they do, since I (and therefore each of my copies) choose to treat my copies as self (I am a *kind* of mind, not a particular mind). If they are your uploads, then it's as you say. ------------------------------- > > Question: If one of the uploads is damaged beyond repair (dies), does it > mean the damaged upload will still live because the other upload will? > > Answer: No, the damaged upload dies and won't live again unless you time > travel and physically transport it to the present. His subjective > experience > is now death (=nothingness). > ### Yesterday there was a man named Slawek. Today a man named Slawek-continuation writes a post. What is the subjective experience of yesterday's Slawek? Is he dead? Or is he writing a post? Rafal From velvethum at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 23:00:45 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:00:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) Message-ID: Brett wrote: >You are currently located in >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to >be of interest to either of us. That is exactly right. If we assume that protecting our identities must necessarily involve preserving our original mind processes instead of our mind patterns, then we must expect the future cryonic revival procedure to offer a workable process-preserving solution before people like me can sign up. Let me offer such a solution, I've been sitting on for few years now, which is a transfer mechanism that relocates an original mind process to various substrates. Because preserving identity-carrying mind activity goes few steps further than what is required for protecting a mind pattern, this new transfer postulates additional constraints on the cryonic revival procedure. Unfortunately, the bad news for potential cryonic patients who subscribe to a "true identity is defined by the uniqueness of a mind process in space-time" view is that cryonics is almost a hopeless technology as far as identity preservation is concerned. This is because any reliable mind relocation method prefers not only as little loss of mind pattern data as possible, but also, more importantly, a mind that is able to function within the original substrate. While cryonics is very much vulnerable to the loss of mind pattern data, it is probably even more so when it's expected to repair the original hardware to the point when the mind process can resume its operation within that substrate. Or maybe it's up to nanotech to fix this problem. In any case, it seems like we're in deep trouble. The good news is that cryonic revival methods are not entirely hopeless. Even though a task of reviving a mind process within an original hardware will be incredibly hard, it doesn't seem impossible. However, from a theoretical point of view, one might observe potentially big problem. Could a mind process survive the break in its continuity? After all, a mind cannot emerge if its hardware cannot function. It would be tempting to reason that freezing evaporates identity, which is a property grounded in a brain activity that would be unquestionably absent while in a deep freeze, but the reason why this would be wrong is that, instead of being absent, the process is merely pausing its execution. The process survives because the hardware and software that enable the emergence of a mind are still there and so is the identity. With that out of the way, let me move on to the details of the transfer itself. In order to successfully transplant a mind onto a different substrate, I impose two constraints on the procedure. 1) Mind process must function within the original substrate. (It doesn't have to be conscious. It just has to execute in some form). 2) Unity of mind must be preserved at all times. The first constraint might be obvious. The transfer cannot happen without an existing process ready to be relocated. The second requirement constrains the way in which the shift is to be performed to avoid creating additional copies of the mind. Even though cryonics deals with biological-to-artificial transfers, for the sake of clarity, I'll assume artificial-to-artificial transfer to better illustrate the mechanism. Two separate machines are located on different planets, and are connected by some interplanetary, and sufficiently fast communication link. Machine A executes some person's mind process, while machine B consists of hardware suited to receive that mind process, but is not running one at the moment. Then, the mind is divided into N number of imaginary mind units. At first, machine A carries 100% of the units, while machine B has 0%. Transfer begins by reading one unit on A at a time and writing it to B. Then, the unit now sitting on B gets integrated into the overall mind process. This makes the original unit fetched from A redundant, so it is deleted. At this point, the mind operates using N-1 units on A and 1 unit on B. The operation progresses until 100% of mind units that used to occupy A now inhabit B. In this way, any mind process could potentially be relocated onto any suitable medium without the loss of identity, grounded in the mind process. It is that grounding that allows us complete disregard for the substance of the substrate as long as the unity of mind is maintained. If the focus was only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their identity in, the second constraint would be meaningless here, (what's the point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), and that would lead only to logical confusion and situations where two copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity. Obviously, the procedure present here is very strict because it shifts one mind unit at a time and allows coexistence of only single unit across the machines. I imagine that, in practice, whole chunks of mind units might be allowed to coexist during the transfer because they alone wouldn't contribute that much to the emergence of a complete and independent mind. The second constraint prevents the procedure from creating any additional copies of the original process because that would inevitably lead to creation of a new mind process and, automatically, a new identity. In that case, the procedure wouldn't result in a successful identity transfer, but merely a birth of a perfect clone. The second constraint also requires the mechanism to maintain functionality of a single mind process stretched across different platforms. It's crucial that the one and only copy of the mind subjected to the transfer does not degenerate into a non-mind process at any point during the relocation. Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective experience during the operation. Ultimately, it's all about subjective experience. No transfer can claim to be identity-preserving unless it guarantees the integrity and continuation of subjective experience during a substrate switch. Recognizing identity as uniqueness of mind process in space-time helps us define the conditions necessary for subjective experience to flow between different computational mediums. This allows us to view the mind as a physical phenomenon and a tangible container for the seemingly intangible subjective experience. This, in turn gives us license to define transferring procedures in scientific terms, i.e., measurable parameters of physical objects. Whatever subjective experience is, mind process enables it and that's the only thing we need to be paying attention to, confident in the truth that as long as we preserve the physical integrity of that process, we'll keep subjective experience intact. Slawomir Paliwoda From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 00:05:13 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916000513.93856.qmail@web60007.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Can either of you tell me what is rational > concerning sports? It's fun, emotionally, satisfying, social, and except for the common scrape or sprain (serious injuries do happen, but far less often, how much less often I can't say. And catastrophic injuries or death occur as well, but rarely.) good for you physically. Also, it's very much a "personal growth" and self-discovery activity, since it teaches about the primitive beast upon which your "persona" is "mounted" for the ride of your life. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 00:20:06 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Spiritual Transhumanism (was Mature rationality) In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040916002006.72091.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into > an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed > better? Spirituality seems to get a bad rap in transhuminist circles. This is somewhat understandable as transhumanists are for the most part rationalists and rationalists tend to be skeptical. This is fine and healthy. In my experience however rationalists tend to grow so accustomed to debunking everything that they come to hold a blind faith in their own skepticism. This is unhealthy. In my opinion a true transhumanist should be willing to explore other paths to self-improvement and self-actualization than merely those of science and rational thought. Often times at the outset, these paths seem to be irrational, until you follow them to their end. Once you have arrived you realize that the perceived irrationality of the path to begin with was an illusion caused by insufficient information to make a valid assessment. Due to my own experiences in karate, the best example I can think of off the top of my head is the martial arts. As a scientist, being rational is my stock in trade. So one can imagine that I was at first very confused about how and why things are done in a traditional martial art form such as karate. The stances and techniques are not natural or intuitively obvious and require much practice and molding of ones body in strength and flexibility in order to achieve. In practicing katas (called forms in other martial arts) often times you do moves that don??t seem to make sense. These forms are handed down generation to generation and some of them have been in existence for hundreds of years. They seem irrational, they are difficult to do, and their explanation by those that teach the martial arts are often esoteric and couched in the mysticism of zen Buddhism. Despite all these reasons to be skeptical, I tried it and it works. Now that I am able to do many of these forms and techniques myself, I have the information I need to analyze them and they are profound. The shotokan stepping punch is one of the most mechanically efficient and devastating martial arts maneuvers one can perform. It utilizes ones mass, power, balance, flexibility and timing in conjunction with gravity in such a way that my girl friend, who is half my size, can break inch thick wooden boards with ease. I won??t stretch your credulity with explanations involving ki, emptiness, sanchi, and all the metaphysics involved in learning martial arts. I will tell you that if I had sat there and tried to deduce a way of punching that would have optimized all these physical parameters, I would have gotten way too bogged down in details to have succeeded in any kind of timely fashion. Transhumanists these days seem to have a prejudice against any knowledge or idea that is older than they are. Ideas are always just that. Ideas can be right or they can be wrong. Old ideas can be right and new ideas can be wrong. Truths can become falsehoods and fictions can become truths. Sometimes something true becomes untrue and then after a time becomes true again. But no idea truly represents ulitimate reality. Since all theories, models, and paradigms are mental constructs that to a greater or lesser extent approximate reality yet never achieve the resolution to actually reproduce reality, they are all decoupled from the physical nature of ultimate reality itself. Since transhumanism deals essentially with using ideas to optimize ones physical existence, these ideas need not be limited to mere technological ones nor even rational ones for that matter as long as they work. Instead if the path to transcendence and self actualization cuts through fairy land or the spirit world, a true transhumanist must be willing to go there. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From velvethum at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 00:21:42 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:21:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Personal Identity (was: A view on cryonics) References: <4148CA03.9060305@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: > ### Somehow I don't recall any thought experiments of yours that would > make my feeling of personal identity break down. Can you refresh my memory? Hi Rafal! Don't you remember the one about two strangers whose minds, by pure chance, merged into the same mind pattern? As far as I remember you told me the moment their patterns became identical they must have shared the same identity. Pretty dramatic stuff. > If I recall correctly, at some point I had you claiming that forcibly > erasing all your memories by rearranging synaptic strengths into a > totally different personality wouldn't really kill you as long as your > brain was going on living.Wasn't that a cool thought experiment? Yeah, that was cool. And yes, I still claim that memories of your 5th birthday party do not influence your identity one bit. The loss may influence who you are as a person, to some extent, but not the identity. > > Example: Suppose some person uploads his mind pattern onto 2 machines > > which now > > run his mind. > > > > Question: Do these coexisting uploads share the same PI? > > > > Answer: They do not, because each mind process is defined by parameters > > (matter in space-time) that do not share the same exact values. These > > uploads share the same *kind* of mind process but their identities are > > different. They are not the same person but perfect clones only. > > ### If they are my uploads, they do, since I (and therefore each of my > copies) choose to treat my copies as self (I am a *kind* of mind, not a > particular mind). If they are your uploads, then it's as you say. Well, you're dead wrong on that, Rafal, and I'm sure you perceive my views as dead wrong. But here's the thing. Now I know *why* we disagree and it has everything to do with grounding identity in the correct definition of the mind, which is something I talk about in my original post. The root of our disagreement is that, while we both recognize that identity should be grounded in the mind, your mind is defined by a *pattern* while I view it as a *process*. If you don't mind, let me quote a fragment of my original post where I talk about this : [In my view it is incorrect to define mind as a mind pattern because patterns are static and our minds are dynamic. The reason why "mind pattern" view is not entirely false, but merely incomplete, is that it ignores the dynamic nature of our minds. That dynamic manifests itself not as a pattern but as a *process* that this pattern enters into. We are able to think and be conscious not because our mind structures carry this or other pattern but because there exists an process that executes on that pattern. Analogously, mind pattern is just like a computer software loaded onto a hardware (brain). If the power is cut to the computer, the machine just sits there and does nothing. It is "dead". It comes to "life" only when the electricity flows through hardware and forces software-defined processes to take place. "Life", however, is not, in this case, a function of electricity but the function of an overall process that happens within the system. The mental existence likewise can only occur when electrical signals flow through our brainware-software, i.e. that existence/life is totally dependent on the process that executes on the mind pattern. Life is a process, not a pattern. Next step is to define the parameters of a process. Each process is defined by matter flowing through space and time. Mind process can therefore be defined as a function of the flow of matter in space and time also, and since personal identity is grounded in the mind process, it can only be defined by matter flowing through space-time.] > > Question: If one of the uploads is damaged beyond repair (dies), does it > > mean the damaged upload will still live because the other upload will? > > > > Answer: No, the damaged upload dies and won't live again unless you time > > travel and physically transport it to the present. His subjective > > experience > > is now death (=nothingness). > > > ### Yesterday there was a man named Slawek. Today a man named > Slawek-continuation writes a post. What is the subjective experience of > yesterday's Slawek? Is he dead? Or is he writing a post? I ground my definition of mind in the brain activity as opposed to brain data. My subjective experience is a manifestation of my mind process which exists in the present, and present only. My mind does not exist somewhere in the past which we can access *right now*. The past does not exist. My subjective experience is contained by my mind process carving the same trajectory in the fabric of space-time, and it always exists exclusively in the *now*. And since there are no multiple *nows*, I'm always the original copy. Slawomir From amara.graps at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 07:52:01 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:52:01 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Etna Talks in her Sleep Message-ID: I said: >Live Webcam on the lava flow (terrible video!) set up by the >Italian Forestry service: >http://etna2004.videobank.it/ Now I realize, the video was terrible because it was an infrared night view. During the day you see a typical web cam video. These descriptions of the web cam explains much better, and give details of the lava flow and the vents: http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/others/etna/etna04-en.html The web cam shows one story, but is an overall rather boring view I think. The upcoming pictures to which I will point you (when they are ready) will be much more interesting. Stay tuned. Amara From alex at ramonsky.com Thu Sep 16 09:01:08 2004 From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:01:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links References: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <41495654.1090600@ramonsky.com> Hello! The synaptic cleft (the actual 'gap' bit of the gap) is about 10 to 20 nm across. (The synaptic 'gap' is the space between and the membranes both sides, so about 20-30nm) A single vesicle full of neurotransmitter is about 50nm in diameter, and fits at least 10,000 molecules of transmitter inside. It has to really move its ass and if the gap were any bigger, we'd probably all have been eaten waiting for the fight flight response to happen : ) Diameter of neurons varies from 4 micron (granule cell) to 100 micron (motor neuron in cord) (Diameter of neuron nucleus = 3 to 18 micron). The plasma membrane itself is about 5nm. Diameter of microtubule = 20-25 nm Diameter of neurofilament = 7-10 nm ...But the density of neurons is an individual thing, and will vary from area to area in each individual, and throughout that individual's lifetime. An individual who regularly uses all bits of the brain a lot will really pack 'em in, especially in bits like the hippocampus. Einstein's looked like someone had tried to shove far too much macaroni into a very small pot. So if you want more elbow room for your bots, choose an extraordinarily stupid subject, preferably with dendritic shrinkage already, big ventricles and a small hippo. ...Like, almost any celebrity? : ) Otherwise, why not consider designs that are long and thin? Things that could go UP axons ...Nanoworms. (Cue for a bad sci fi movie where nanoworms infest everyone's brains and the hero invents the first intrathecal anthelmintic, but cannot tell anybody because you cannot pronounce that over the telephone). ...Please accept my apologies; I have been awake for a very long time. I'll stop now. Best, AR ********************* Brett Paatsch wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Do you know how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on > neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do > neurons pack at > their tightest and most dense? > > Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale > limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get > between them. > > In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the > extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because > the space may be > as little as 10s of nanometres in places (and the space map would be > different for every brain - more different than variations in > vasculature) and > no nanobot with a payload worth a damn could get much smaller than a > half a micron I'd guessimate. > > Cheers, > Brett > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 16 09:35:44 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:35:44 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) References: Message-ID: <03a301c49bd0$8a6f0150$ec202dcb@homepc> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > Brett wrote: > >You are currently located in > >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have > >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting > >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to > >be of interest to either of us. > > That is exactly right. If we assume that protecting our identities must > necessarily involve preserving our original mind processes instead of > our mind patterns, then we must expect the future cryonic revival > procedure to offer a workable process-preserving solution before > people like me can sign up. I'd also be a lot more interested then. I'd still want to know more before handing over money, but your definitions of identity don't rub the wrong way right off the bat. > Let me offer such a solution, I've been sitting on for few years > now, which is a transfer mechanism that relocates an original mind > process to various substrates. Because preserving identity-carrying > mind activity goes few steps further than what is required for > protecting a mind pattern, this new transfer postulates additional > constraints on the cryonic revival procedure. > > Unfortunately, the bad news for potential cryonic patients who > subscribe to a "true identity is defined by the uniqueness of a mind > process in space-time" view is that cryonics is almost a hopeless > technology as far as identity preservation is concerned. This is > because any reliable mind relocation method prefers not only as > little loss of mind pattern data as possible, but also, more > importantly, a mind that is able to function within the original > substrate. Ah but where some of John Clarkes objections were off base in my opinion before, they would not be in your new scenario if I understand it correctly. I am much more willing to transfer off my substrate in stages while alive, including theoretically, all the way of it altogether, in stages provided I can stay aware the whole time. After all, that IS what I have been doing all my life. New neurons growing etc. New memories forming etc. Sometimes while I slept I'd grant John but never while I was totally offline. An ANALOGY might be that I am a lot more comfortable conceptually having a new hard disk appended onto my existing substrate forming a sort of RAID array, provided the process can be done while I am still "online". I'd be willing to take some calculated risk for that sort of opportunity. But the tech is likely to be much harder and my timeframe of potential interest is someone less than my current life expectancy. Cybernetics is perhaps risky but in principle its a clear good. I'd want the option of it. > While cryonics is very much vulnerable to the loss of mind > pattern data, it is probably even more so when it's expected > to repair the original hardware to the point when the mind > process can resume its operation within that substrate. Or > maybe it's up to nanotech to fix this problem. In any case, > it seems like we're in deep trouble. Yup. But of course John C and co are right in that biology isn't exactly "hardware" anyway. > > The good news is that cryonic revival methods are not > entirely hopeless. Even though a task of reviving a mind > process within an original hardware will be incredibly hard, > it doesn't seem impossible. > > However, from a theoretical point of view, one might observe > potentially big problem. Could a mind process survive the > break in its continuity? This doesn't bother me excessively. Its a factor but I'd be willing to risk a little mental illness if I could manage the process. Heck worse case scenario I die a little sooner and/or the world would have another nut for a short time. Mental illness is not a fate worse than death. I'd dare so long as the daring was done on my terms and my timeframe. I'd also have a battery of tests I could think of to incrementally explore and manage and minimse risk. That sort of risk taking is fun and rational I reckon. > After all, a mind cannot emerge if its > hardware cannot function. It would be tempting to reason > that freezing evaporates identity, which is a property grounded > in a brain activity that would be unquestionably absent while in > a deep freeze, but the reason why this would be wrong is that, > instead of being absent, the process is merely pausing its > execution. The process survives because the hardware and > software that enable the emergence of a mind are still there > and so is the identity. > > With that out of the way, let me move on to the details of the > transfer itself. In order to successfully transplant a mind onto > a different substrate, I impose two constraints on the procedure. > > 1) Mind process must function within the original substrate. (It > doesn't have to be conscious. It just has to execute in some form). > > 2) Unity of mind must be preserved at all times. > > The first constraint might be obvious. The transfer cannot happen > without an existing process ready to be relocated. > > The second requirement constrains the way in which the shift is > to be performed to avoid creating additional copies of the mind. > > Even though cryonics deals with biological-to-artificial transfers, > for the sake of clarity, I'll assume artificial-to-artificial transfer to > better illustrate the mechanism. --------- > Two separate machines are located on different planets, and are > connected by some interplanetary, and sufficiently fast communication > link. Machine A executes some person's mind process, while > machine B consists of hardware suited to receive that mind process, > but is not running one at the moment. Then, the mind is divided into > N number of imaginary mind units. At first, machine A carries 100% > of the units, while machine B has 0%. Transfer begins by reading one > unit on A at a time and writing it to B. Then, the unit now sitting on B > gets integrated into the overall mind process. This makes the original > unit fetched from A redundant, so it is deleted. At this point, the mind > operates using N-1 units on A and 1 unit on B. The operation > progresses until 100% of mind units that used to occupy A now inhabit B. --------- Ok as an analogy. > In this way, any mind process could potentially be relocated onto any > suitable medium without the loss of identity, grounded in the mind process. > It is that grounding that allows us complete disregard for the substance of > the substrate as long as the unity of mind is maintained. Yes unity is key. > If the focus was > only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their > identity in, the second constraint would be meaningless here, (what's the > point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), > and that would lead only to logical confusion and situations where two > copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity. In the interests of communication clarity I would not agree to using identity to describe any outcome where people could talk of two contemporaneous and disconnected instances of an "identity". If there are two it is not an identity. For identity there can be only one, period. New words for types of near identity might be coined. > Obviously, the procedure present here is very strict because it shifts one > mind unit at a time and allows coexistence of only single unit across the > machines. I imagine that, in practice, whole chunks of mind units might be > allowed to coexist during the transfer because they alone wouldn't > contribute that much to the emergence of a complete and independent mind. > The second constraint prevents the procedure from creating any additional > copies of the original process because that would inevitably lead to > creation of a new mind process and, automatically, a new identity. In that > case, the procedure wouldn't result in a successful identity transfer, but > merely a birth of a perfect clone. > > The second constraint also requires the mechanism to maintain functionality > of a single mind process stretched across different platforms. It's crucial > that the one and only copy of the mind subjected to the transfer does not > degenerate into a non-mind process at any point during the relocation. > Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective > experience during the operation. Ideally, but a little "sleepiness" might be tolerable :-) > Ultimately, it's all about subjective experience. No transfer can claim to > be identity-preserving unless it guarantees the integrity and continuation > of subjective experience during a substrate switch. Yes ! > Recognizing > identity as uniqueness of mind process in space-time helps us define the > conditions necessary for subjective experience to flow between different > computational mediums. This allows us to view the mind as a physical > phenomenon and a tangible container for the seemingly intangible > subjective experience. Yes. > This, in turn gives us license to define transferring > procedures in scientific terms, i.e., measurable parameters of physical > objects. Whatever subjective experience is, mind process enables it and > that's the only thing we need to be paying attention to, confident in the > truth that as long as we preserve the physical integrity of that process, > we'll keep subjective experience intact. > > Slawomir Paliwoda Good post. Imo, you are raising the bar in terms of how you are thinking about this. Interestingly, I can see how Rafal's view (or rather his communication of it) could be reconciled with yours to some potential benefit of both your aspirations. He'd just need to acknowledge that you are using the word identity in a tighter more strict way than he is. Like a person with a rectangle recognizes that they have a rectangle and you have a square and they should not try an call it a "square". If a rectangle is all you want thats fine. If a rectangle can be achieved easier thats fine too. If something less than full identity works for you then don't pretend that it is full identity when you know it isn't going to be seen as full identity for others. To do so dumbs stuff down. Its about clarity, and politics, and communication, and truth in advertising that identity continues to mean only one. The is the sort of identity most people will relate too. That some people will settle for less than full identity preservation rather than nothing is ok but beside the point when the point when what both you and Rafal would want would be to increase the chances in the real world of satisfying both your criteria and his will be easier than yours. If Rafs vision is held up by cryonics folk as the one to try and attracts others than it will repel folk like me at the same time as it attracts folk like him and John. On the other hand if yours is held up, Raf's lower criteria is likely to fall out of a technological pipeline faster as a sort of easier prototype perhaps as more people and resources may go in pursuit of yours (assuming of course yours is not impossible - a question I've not considered in this post). Regards, Brett From velvethum at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 17:00:08 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (s. p.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:00:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) Message-ID: Brett wrote: >You are currently located in >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to >be of interest to either of us. That is exactly right. If we assume that preserving our identities must necessarily involve preserving our original mind processes instead of our mind patterns, then we must expect the future cryonic revival procedure to offer a workable process-preserving solution before people like me can sign up. Let me offer my solution that I've been sitting on for few years now which is a proposed transfer procedure that *translates* the original mind process onto various mind substrates. Because preserving identity-carrying mind process goes step further than what's required for preserving mind pattern, this new transfer defines additional constraints on the cryonic revival procedure. Unfortunately, the bad news for potential cryonic patients who subscribe to a "true identity is defined by a mind process in space-time" view is that cryonics is almost a hopeless technology as far as identity preservation is concerned. This is because any reliable mind process translation prefers not only as much loss of mind pattern data as possible, but also, more importantly, a mind that is able to function within the original substrate. While cryonics is very much vulnerable to the loss of mind pattern data, it is probably even more so when it's expected to repair the original mind substrate to the point when the mind process can still emerge within that substrate. Or maybe it's a nanotech problem. In any case, we're in deep trouble. The good news is that cryonic revival procedures are almost hopeless, but not entirely. Even though the procedure that requires reviving a mind process within an original substrate will be incredibly hard, it's not impossible. However, from a theoretical point of view, one might observe potentially big problem. Could mind process survive the break in its continuity? After all, mind process cannot emerge if its hardware cannot function. It would be tempting to reason that freezing evaporates identity since it is a property defined by a mind process that would be unquestionably absent while in a deep freeze, but the reason why this would be wrong is that instead of being absent, the mind process is merely pausing its execution. The process survives because the hardware and software that enable the emergence of that process are still there and so is the identity. But again, the identity is preserved because of the existing process, not the hardware and software that makes it happen. With that out of the way, let me move on to details of the transfer itself. In order for a mind process to be translated onto a different substrate, I impose two constraints on the procedure. 1) Mind process must function within the original substrate. (It doesn't have to be conscious. It just has to execute in some form). 2) Unity of the mind must be preserved at all times. The first constraint might be obvious. In order to have process transfer, the process must be there in the first place. The second constraint deals with the way in which the transfer is to be performed to avoid creating additional copies of the mind process. Even though cryonics deals with biological-to-artificial transfers, for the sake of clarity I'll assume artificial-to-artificial transfer to better illustrate the procedure. Two connected, but separate machines sit on the table. Machine A currently executes some person's mind process, while machine B consists of hardware suited to receive that mind process, but is not running one at the moment. Then, let's divide a mind into some number of imaginary mind units. At the beginning, machine A carries 100% of the mind units, while machine B has 0%. Transfer proceeds by reading one unit on A at a time and writing it to B. Then, the unit that now sits on B gets integrated into the mind process that resides on A, which makes the original unit fetched from A redundant and is deleted. The operation progresses until 100% of mind units that used to occupy A now inhabit B. In this way, any mind process could potentially be transferred onto any suitable medium without the loss of identity that must inherently be grounded in the mind process. It is that grounding in process that allows us complete disregard for the substance of the substrate as long as the unity of mind is maintained. If the focus was only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their identity in, that would lead to logical confusion because the second constraint, the unity of mind, would be meaningless in this case (what's the point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), which would, in turn, lead to cases in which we get two copies of the same data with the same identity, i.e., nonsense. Obviously, the procedure I've presented is very strict because it translates mind units one at a time and allows coexistence of only one unit across the machines. I imagine that, in practice, whole chunks of mind units might be allowed to coexist during the transfer because they wouldn't contribute that much to the emergence of a whole complete mind. The second constraint prevents the procedure from creating any additional copies of the original process because that would inevitably lead to creation of a new mind process and new identity. In that case the procedure wouldn't result in a successful identity transfer, but merely a birth of a perfect clone. The second constraint also requires the procedure to maintain functionality of the mind process stretched across different platforms. It's crucial that the one and only copy of the mind subjected to the transfer does not degenerate into a non-mind process at any point during the transfer. Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective experience during the operation. To summarize, I don't hold out much hope that cryonics will offer many identity-preserving solutions. Uploading from the "living" brain seems like the way to go. Slawomir Paliwoda _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 09:46:42 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:46:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen In-Reply-To: <20040915164705.61696.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040915164705.61696.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508FC29A-07C5-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Hi Mike: The pdf downloads fine for me. You can picture at: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/ best, patrick On 15 Sep 2004, at 18:47, Mike Lorrey wrote: > THe images didn't load on this. > > --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > >> Hey just be clear when I said "seen" I meant "saw", as in "took a >> photo >> of" that sort of thing. Not simply, ho hum "detected". Have a look at >> >> Figure 1. >> >>> full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 09:52:21 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:52:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Study Details Three Year U.S. High-Tech Job Bust Message-ID: High-Tech Cities See No Job Growth, High Unemployment Seattle, Wash--- A new report by the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois, Chicago, shows that U.S. high-technology workers are still facing chronic unemployment and a serious jobs deficit despite an economic recovery being declared three years ago. The report, entitled "America's High-Tech Bust," found that the U.S. high-tech economy continued to lose a whopping 200,000 jobs after the recession was declared over in November 2001 by the National Bureau of Economic Research. Full report: The employment situation is particularly bleak in the San Francisco PMSA, which witnessed a 49% job loss between March 2001 and April 2004 and a 25% job loss post-November 2001 Significant post-recession job losses also occurred in other regions with a large IT industry presence. San Jose and Boston lost 14,000 and 12,200 jobs, respectively between the official end of the recession in November 2001 and April 2004. Chicago and Dallas each lost about 10,000 jobs during this period, and Seattle has lost 6,300 IT industry jobs since the beginning of the recession and 1,700 jobs post-recession. Washington, D.C. is the only metropolitan area in the dataset, which despite losing 8,300 jobs during the recession, added 4,100 new jobs after the end of the recession. While there is a lack of current and reliable information on the extent of job losses due to offshore outsourcing, there is little doubt that it has contributed to soaring unemployment rates in the industry. For instance, UIC-CUED analysis of the Current Population Survey reveals that national unemployment rates for computer programmers was 6.7% in 2003, two years after the end of the recession, compared to 2.5% in 2001. Incidentally, computer programming is also one of the top occupations sent offshore (ITAA, 2003). Marcus Courtney, president of WashTech, noted that only a few years ago, the high-tech economy in the U.S. was the most dynamic sector and touted as the new economy that was going to be the backbone of job creation for the future as the nation moved away from its manufacturing roots. "It is stunning to think that in every region of the country, we have fewer high-tech jobs today than we did three years ago. We must focus on exporting our products instead of our jobs to turn this critical situation around." BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 10:05:18 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 03:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] IEEE Spectrum on aging: Why We Fall Apart Message-ID: <20040916100518.53666.qmail@web50804.mail.yahoo.com> >From IEEE Spectrum: The problem is that our bodies deteriorate with age. For most of our lives, the risk of death is increasing exponentially, doubling every eight years. So, why do we fall apart, and what can we do about it? Many scientists now believe that, for the first time in human history, we have developed a sophisticated enough understanding of the nature of human aging to begin seriously planning ways to defeat it. These scientists are working from a simple but compelling notion: the body, far from being a perfect creation, is a failure-prone, defect-ridden machine formed through the stochastic process of biological evolution. In this view, we can be further improved through genetic engineering and be better maintained through preventive, regenerative, and antiaging medicine and by repairing and replacing worn-out body parts. In short, the rate at which we fall apart could be decreased, maybe even to a negligible level... Finally, we could learn to replace our damaged organs, substituting the young and healthy for the old and failing. Many researchers now believe that one day the human life span could be greatly extended by replenishing aging organs with stem cells. We are just now starting down this road. Such regenerative medicine and tissue engineering may sound like science fiction, but a growing number of scientists are taking the first steps to grow tissues and organs to replace failed ones. Laboratories around the world are making progress in building replacement lung, kidney, liver, and heart tissue. http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904age.html From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 12:57:36 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915125218.22200.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916125736.67178.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> It is true the young generally find life dull in the jobs, families, communities and states you refer to, but don't 'older folks' (middle-aged & elderly) often enjoy the dull routines? Don't many older folks often find dull routines to be reassuring, and don't they sometimes find excitement to be disorienting, even enervating? >what would otherwise be an > incredibly dull life in some dull job and dull > family and dull > community in a dull nanny-state that wants to take > care of you from > cradle to grave (except of course when you are > getting mugged). That > such individuals have been bred that way by a > pathetic public education > system, and public welfare system is another issue > entirely, but > irrational government will create an irrational > society. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From velvethum at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 13:44:13 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:44:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) References: <03a301c49bd0$8a6f0150$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: > > If the focus was > > only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their > > identity in, the second constraint would be meaningless here, (what's the > > point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), > > and that would lead only to logical confusion and situations where two > > copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity. > > In the interests of communication clarity I would not agree to using > identity to describe any outcome where people could talk of two > contemporaneous and disconnected instances of an "identity". If there > are two it is not an identity. For identity there can be only one, period. There can only be one identity. That's why "situations where two copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity" are logically confusing and unacceptable. > > Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective > > experience during the operation. > > Ideally, but a little "sleepiness" might be tolerable :-) Sure. > Interestingly, I can see how Rafal's view (or rather his communication of > it) could be reconciled with yours to some potential benefit of both your > aspirations. He'd just need to acknowledge that you are using the word > identity in a tighter more strict way than he is. Like a person with a > rectangle > recognizes that they have a rectangle and you have a square and they > should not try an call it a "square". In my reply to Rafal's post, I've identified the source of our disagreement and it stems from our definition of what mind is. He, and majority of people who think about PI, view the mind as a pattern while I see it as a process. He doesn't say it explicitly, but that's exactly what he means. His concept of identity is more concerned with questions like, "Who are you?", rather than, "What, where and when are you?" which is what I'm interested in. > If something less than > full identity works for you then don't pretend that it is full identity when > you know it isn't going to be seen as full identity for others. To do so > dumbs stuff down. Exactly. Definitions of identity shouldn't be opinions. Identity is what it is and we're allowed to have different emotional responses to how we feel about preserving it, but this doesn't change its nature. One person might say he doesn't like yellow, while someone else loves it. However, a definition of yellow can't be "the color I like", or " the color I don't like". And you definitely shouldn't hope to get any respect if you dare to publically claim that yellow doesn't exist. At least when I'm that audience. :) > If Rafs vision is held up by cryonics folk as the one to try and attracts > others than it will repel folk like me at the same time as it attracts folk > like him and John. On the other hand if yours is held up, Raf's lower > criteria is likely to fall out of a technological pipeline faster as a sort > of easier prototype perhaps as more people and resources may go > in pursuit of yours (assuming of course yours is not impossible - a > question I've not considered in this post). Yes. Anything less than a successful subjective experience transplant is, IMO, simply death. All I hope for is that we don't get stuck with some memory transfer procedure, advertised as "identity-preserving", as the only option available. Slawomir From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 15:52:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique Message-ID: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit prime found in consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the problem is an IP address to a site that asks another problem, and so on until the smart problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... Apparently we don't have to show our work on these problems. Anybody want to collaborate? ;) To figure out this problem, you first need a list of all 10 digit primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of it, incremented one digit at a time, then compare. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From jonkc at att.net Thu Sep 16 16:02:46 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:02:46 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: Message-ID: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> "s. p." > Brett at 10 years old is the same at 20 because his mind process > never degenerated into, one, non-mind process Not true, when Brett sleeps his conscious mind stops and if he has ever had surgery and anesthesia even his unconscious mind stopped. > He is the same because his mind process has been carving > out the same, uninterupted line of three-dimensional chunks > in space-time. Space-time is 4 dimensional, and the perfect copy Brett in no more uninterrupted than the Brett who awoke after receiving anesthesia. > Memories/experiences aqcuired throughout person's life do not define > identity. They do define his personality and psychological make-up, > not his identity. If you?re correct and neither memory nor personality defines identity then the only conclusion to draw is that the TV preachers are correct and we have a soul. If I thought that was true I?d burn my science books, buy some saffron robes and become a monk; I don?t have plans to do that in the immediate future. Thought Experiment: You and your exact copy are standing an equal distance from the center of a symmetrical room. I now claim to have instantly swapped the location of you and the copy. There is no way an outside observer can detect any objective change, there is no way you can detect any subjective change, and there is no way for you to prove that my claim to have made the swap is true or not. So we have something that has no objective effect, no subjective effect, and there is no way to disprove the thing. I conclude that this is not a scientific question. If you're still right then you're talking about a soul. I don't find souls useful. >> Me: >> there is no way to prove that you are not a copy of the original > Yes, there is. One day you bump into somebody who looks exactly like you, you start to speak to him but are distracted because he is also speaking and saying the same thing you are in perfect synchronization. Three questions: 1) Prove to me that you are the original and not the copy. 2) If you can?t do that (and you can?t) then show, at least to yourself, that you are probably the original and not the copy. 3) If you can?t do either of the above (and you can?t) then who cares if you?re the original or the copy? > Identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in space-time. > There's room for only one mind process in the fabric of space time. Or what, they both get swallowed by a black hole or something? That may be your definition of identity but the laws of Physics don?t even hint at such a thing. > If you value living then you should care because if the original you gets > killed, the film ends, and you won't live, even though your clones might. I?ve had this discussion many times before and for some reason in these thought experiments people always always always assume they are ?The Original? and look at it from only that viewpoint, just once pretend you?re ?the copy? and get a different perspective. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:24:23 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:24:23 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091609245dd1d72a@mail.gmail.com> Fun. I am sure there must be a simpler and smarter way, for example using a list of .com domain names and looking for a consecutive string of 10 numbers (ten characters excluding a-z and dash). If the list is sorted alphabetically the check could even be done by eyes. G. On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) > > To figure out this problem, you first need a list of all 10 digit > primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of it, incremented one > digit at a time, then compare. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 16:28:38 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so > on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) > > To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > all 10 digit > primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > it, incremented one > digit at a time, then compare. They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while ago. For something like this, someone else has solved the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so you can simply google for the final answer (the page which asks for your resume). From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 16:35:07 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:35:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5ED0AE3E-07FE-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> My quick search only came up with this: http://216.239.59.57/ which gives a 502 error to Google... best, patrick On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 >> >> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit >> prime found in >> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the >> problem is an IP >> address to a site that asks another problem, and so >> on until the smart >> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... >> >> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these >> problems. Anybody >> want to collaborate? ;) >> >> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of >> all 10 digit >> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of >> it, incremented one >> digit at a time, then compare. > > They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while > ago. For something like this, someone else has solved > the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so > you can simply google for the final answer (the page > which asks for your resume). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dwish at indco.net Thu Sep 16 16:39:41 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:39:41 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409161552.i8GFqBS9019422@br549.indconet.com> Already applied...lol Goto Linux.org and login with Bobsyouruncle and 5966290435 as password Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:29 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so > on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) > > To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > all 10 digit > primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > it, incremented one > digit at a time, then compare. They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while ago. For something like this, someone else has solved the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so you can simply google for the final answer (the page which asks for your resume). _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 16:49:06 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <5ED0AE3E-07FE-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, it's currently getting slashdotted to death... --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > My quick search only came up with this: > > http://216.239.59.57/ > > which gives a 502 error to Google... > > best, patrick > > > On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > >> > >> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > >> prime found in > >> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > >> problem is an IP > >> address to a site that asks another problem, and so > >> on until the smart > >> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > >> > >> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > >> problems. Anybody > >> want to collaborate? ;) > >> > >> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > >> all 10 digit > >> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > >> it, incremented one > >> digit at a time, then compare. > > > > They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while > > ago. For something like this, someone else has solved > > the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so > > you can simply google for the final answer (the page > > which asks for your resume). > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 16:55:03 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:55:03 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Is that the correct answer? Wow. That would be cool. best, patrick On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:49, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Yeah, it's currently getting slashdotted to death... > > --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > >> My quick search only came up with this: >> >> http://216.239.59.57/ >> >> which gives a 502 error to Google... >> >> best, patrick >> >> >> On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >>> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >>>> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 >>>> >>>> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit >>>> prime found in >>>> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the >>>> problem is an IP >>>> address to a site that asks another problem, and so >>>> on until the smart >>>> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... >>>> >>>> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these >>>> problems. Anybody >>>> want to collaborate? ;) >>>> >>>> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of >>>> all 10 digit >>>> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of >>>> it, incremented one >>>> digit at a time, then compare. >>> >>> They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while >>> ago. For something like this, someone else has solved >>> the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so >>> you can simply google for the final answer (the page >>> which asks for your resume). >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From joe at barrera.org Thu Sep 16 17:07:28 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:07:28 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> Patrick Wilken wrote: > Is that the correct answer? Wow. That would be cool. This is where you're supposed to end up. Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. - Joe From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 17:13:33 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:13:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> Message-ID: Having checked the answer using a quick Google search, I realize that my answer is only a 10-digit prime IP address for Google , not the correct answer. Sigh. Back the being a psychologist. best, patrick On 16 Sep 2004, at 19:07, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Patrick Wilken wrote: > >> Is that the correct answer? Wow. That would be cool. > > This is where you're supposed to end up. > > > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > - Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 17:15:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <5ED0AE3E-07FE-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Cause that isn't the right answer, it turns out. Doing the right googling will turn up the answer and the answer to the second problem as well... While they surely wanted to increase their signal to noise ratio, I'm also wondering if they wanted to advertise the use of google for such filtering, or wanted people to use google to dig up the answers... I suppose there is something to be said for not reinventing the wheel. http://www.mkaz.com/math/google/ This site has the right answers, for which the author did the grunt work. --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > My quick search only came up with this: > > http://216.239.59.57/ > > which gives a 502 error to Google... > > best, patrick > > > On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > >> > >> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > >> prime found in > >> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > >> problem is an IP > >> address to a site that asks another problem, and so > >> on until the smart > >> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > >> > >> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > >> problems. Anybody > >> want to collaborate? ;) > >> > >> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > >> all 10 digit > >> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > >> it, incremented one > >> digit at a time, then compare. > > > > They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while > > ago. For something like this, someone else has solved > > the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so > > you can simply google for the final answer (the page > > which asks for your resume). > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 16 17:16:04 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:16:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org Message-ID: <181790-22004941617164948@M2W103.mail2web.com> Re: http://www.moveon.org Can any tell us about this organization? Thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 17:30:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <181790-22004941617164948@M2W103.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040916173004.4124.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > Re: http://www.moveon.org > > Can any tell us about this organization? Funded by George Soros anti-gun anti-free-speech pro-socialist nuff said. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 17:43:12 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:43:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <181790-22004941617164948@M2W103.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040916174312.30796.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You can see from their site that Moveon was founded by two silicon valley entrepreneurs who were "fed up with the impeachment mess" of 1998, and who want to empower 'ordinary people'; naturally, a populist concept. They are active in supporting Kerry for president, which is praiseworthy. However, designations such as 'ordinary people', 'the people', 'the masses', 'just plain folks', 'the man on the street', 'the average person', don't mean much. How many 'average' or 'ordinary' people do you know? --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > Re: http://www.moveon.org > > Can any tell us about this organization? > > Thanks, > Natasha > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From velvethum at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 17:33:31 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:31 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: > > Brett at 10 years old is the same at 20 because his mind process > > never degenerated into, one, non-mind process > > Not true, when Brett sleeps his conscious mind stops and if he has ever had > surgery and anesthesia even his unconscious mind stopped. Identity doesn't evaporate even when mind process stops. It vanishes only when mind process is destroyed. Pausing process' activity is not the same as destroying it. But this is about halting a process, and my quote above was about degeneration of a mind into a non-mind process. > > Memories/experiences aqcuired throughout person's life do not define > > identity. They do define his personality and psychological make-up, > > not his identity. > > If you?re correct and neither memory nor personality defines identity then > the only conclusion to draw is that the TV preachers are correct and we > have a soul. I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but even if one can conclude from this that people have souls, this is definitely not the *only* conclusion that we can draw here. Much more effective alternative is to focus on subjective experience because that's the only thing that stays the same throughout memory fluctuations or changes in personality. I want people to think about identity from the perspective of subjective experience rather than from the perspective of memories and personalities. > Thought Experiment: > > You and your exact copy are standing an equal distance from the center of a > symmetrical room. I now claim to have instantly swapped the location of you > and the copy. There is no way an outside observer can detect any objective > change, there is no way you can detect any subjective change, and there is > no way for you to prove that my claim to have made the swap is true or not. > So we have something that has no objective effect, no subjective effect, and > there is no way to disprove the thing. I conclude that this is not a > scientific question. If you're still right then you're talking about a soul. > I don't find souls useful. The error in your reasoning is the phrase "instantly swapped the location of you and the copy". You can't just "instantly" swap matter in space-time. The only way by which the switch can be performed is by taking an object and transport it to another location. This action, however, will carve a unique trajectory in space-time. Because there can only be one and only one such trajectory, it is possible to track the identity of any object. > >> Me: > >> there is no way to prove that you are not a copy of the original > > > Yes, there is. > > One day you bump into somebody who looks exactly like you, you start to > speak to him but are distracted because he is also speaking and saying the > same thing you are in perfect synchronization. Three questions: > > 1) Prove to me that you are the original and not the copy. Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. Threrefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting the log detailing locations of my mind in space and time, which will show different values for x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who claims to be me. As long as I can show that the set of space-time position parameters for any two minds never share the same exact values, I will always be able to prove identity of any mind. > > Identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in space-time. > > There's room for only one mind process in the fabric of space time. > > Or what, they both get swallowed by a black hole or something? That may be > your definition of identity but the laws of Physics don?t even hint at such > a thing. My point is that two *different* objects cannot occupy the same location in space and time. This is why you don't get killed crossing the street by a car that was going 60mph through that crossing 2 years ago. Slawomir From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 18:01:41 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916180141.93199.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > While they surely wanted to increase their signal to > noise ratio, I'm > also wondering if they wanted to advertise the use > of google for such > filtering, or wanted people to use google to dig up > the answers... I > suppose there is something to be said for not > reinventing the wheel. I think googling for the answer would be "cheating", in terms of their original problem. OTOH, it is the type of non-standard-yet-more-effective thinking they claim to be looking for - at least, at first. Now that the problem's been around long enough that people can be advised to google for the answer...well, that kind of defeats this class of problem. (Even if they come up with new problems, the strategy of waiting for others to post the answer - whether or not Google says not to post the answer - remains valid and possibly well-known, not requiring original thinking to conceive of.) From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 18:11:33 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:11:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916173004.4124.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Moveon is certainly anti-gun, and they did support the new campaign finance law, but it is somewhat of an exaggeration to dismiss them as "pro-socialist". You might call them 'Third-Wayers'. Oh, they are sympathetic to socialism, but a goo goo socialist is not one and the same with a bona fide socialist. As you well know, neither is a libertarian an anarchist. A Marxist might be sympathetic to communism without actually being a communist. A reactionary economist might be slightly sympathetic to totalitarian corporatism without actually being any sort of a fascist (incidentally, most people to this day think Francisco Franco was a fascist, when he in reality was a Monarchist). Every time a liberal appears on television there are millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', 'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > anti-gun > anti-free-speech > pro-socialist > > nuff said. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:44:22 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:44:22 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040916173004.4124.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:11:33 +0100 (BST), Trend Ologist wrote: > Every time a liberal appears on television there are > millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', > 'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > Long article from LA Weekly Aug 6, 2004, about MoveOn: On-line Activist Left organisation. Quotes from the article: A few more clicks and you can sign petitions to Congress protesting the war, the Clean Air Act and the No Child Left Behind Act. You can demand that President Bush be censured, call for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation, and urge Congress and the FTC to revoke Fox News' right to use "Fair and Balanced" as its slogan. MoveOn now has 2.2 million members in the U.S. (registration is free), with another 800,000 or so abroad. Along with partisan documentary films such as Fahrenheit 9/11 and Robert Greenwald's new Outfoxed, both of which MoveOn has stumped for, it's all part of a giant, perhaps unprecedented effort by the country's intellectual and artistic communities to unseat the conspicuously unintellectual, inartistic man in the Oval Office. MoveOn certainly isn't the only reason for the flowering of Democratic activism ? perceptions about Bush and the war are responsible for much of it ? but the combination has created something entirely new: a left-wing electoral body that is turning out en masse for a mainstream Democratic candidate. The kind of people who might once have worked for Eugene McCarthy and Robert Kennedy and George McGovern ? men they would have truly admired ? are now working even more passionately for John Kerry, whom they mock for being a bore and sounding like a Republican. BillK From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:39:19 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:39:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org Message-ID: Can't you be a fascist and a monarchist? They don't seem exclusive to me. Wasn't Hitler a democratist and a fascist? BAL >From: Trend Ologist >To: ExI chat list , >natashavita at earthlink.net >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org >Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:11:33 +0100 (BST) > >Moveon is certainly anti-gun, and they did support the >new campaign finance law, but it is somewhat of an >exaggeration to dismiss them as "pro-socialist". You >might call them 'Third-Wayers'. Oh, they are >sympathetic to socialism, but a goo goo socialist is >not one and the same with a bona fide socialist. As >you well know, neither is a libertarian an anarchist. >A Marxist might be sympathetic to communism without >actually being a communist. A reactionary economist >might be slightly sympathetic to totalitarian >corporatism without actually being any sort of a >fascist (incidentally, most people to this day think >Francisco Franco was a fascist, when he in reality was >a Monarchist). >Every time a liberal appears on television there are >millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', >'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > > > > anti-gun > > anti-free-speech > > pro-socialist > > > > nuff said. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William > > Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William > > Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! >Messenger - all new features - even more fun! >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From eliasen at mindspring.com Thu Sep 16 19:12:36 2004 From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:12:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4149E5A4.3070704@mindspring.com> I have a very simple Frink ( http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/ ) program that does the "grunt" work. I wrote it a few months ago when the billboard first came out. It probably took all of 5 minutes (4 of which were spent finding a decimal expansion of e just to make it easier. Frink could have calculated that, too.) I don't want to release it to the world, but here's a hint: four built-in functions that are useful: e = read["file:///...."] (reads e from a file) substrLen(e, n, 10) (returns 10 characters from point n in a string.) parseInt[s] (parses an string to an integer, or use eval[]) isPrime[x] (Rabin-Miller prime test.) The "for" loop and assignments are left to the reader. -- Alan Eliasen | "Whenever you find you are on the side of eliasen at mindspring.com | the majority, it is time to pause and http://futureboy.homeip.net/ | reflect." --Mark Twain Mike Lorrey wrote: > Cause that isn't the right answer, it turns out. > > Doing the right googling will turn up the answer and the answer to the > second problem as well... > > While they surely wanted to increase their signal to noise ratio, I'm > also wondering if they wanted to advertise the use of google for such > filtering, or wanted people to use google to dig up the answers... I > suppose there is something to be said for not reinventing the wheel. > > http://www.mkaz.com/math/google/ > > This site has the right answers, for which the author did the grunt > work. > > --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > > >>My quick search only came up with this: >> >>http://216.239.59.57/ >> >>which gives a 502 error to Google... >> >>best, patrick >> >> >>On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >> >>>--- Mike Lorrey wrote: >>> >>>>http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 >>>> >>>>A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit >>>>prime found in >>>>consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the >>>>problem is an IP >>>>address to a site that asks another problem, and so >>>>on until the smart >>>>problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... >>>> >>>>Apparently we don't have to show our work on these >>>>problems. Anybody >>>>want to collaborate? ;) >>>> >>>>To figure out this problem, you first need a list of >>>>all 10 digit >>>>primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of >>>>it, incremented one >>>>digit at a time, then compare. >>> >>>They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while >>>ago. For something like this, someone else has solved >>>the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so >>>you can simply google for the final answer (the page >>>which asks for your resume). >>>_______________________________________________ >>>extropy-chat mailing list >>>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 19:45:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > Can't you be a fascist and a monarchist? They don't seem exclusive to > me. Wasn't Hitler a democratist and a fascist? Socialist and fascist (hence the term "National Socialist Workers Party"). There tends to be hostility, resentment, and conflict between groups in the same political arena that espouse nationalist vs internationalist versions of their philosophy, as well as between factions arguing about forced imposition of policies vs consensus/conversion/evolution of policy. It is happening today in the GOP, the DNC, and the LP. It happened between the Nationalist Stalinists and the Internationalist Trotskyists. This might hint that the old Nolan chart should also have a third axis focused on foreign policy, ranging from interventionist to isolationist. Perhaps another focusing on whether individuals should right their own wrongs or rely on the state to do it for them. While we can quibble over who is or is not a socialist or a libertarian (an anarchist is a libertarian but a libertarian is not necessarily an anarchist) the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for the partial or full nationalization of one or more sectors of our economy which have traditionally been mostly or solely private enterprise driven. These include health care, firearms, the media, securities markets, transportation and real estate. That is a very significantly socialist agenda that would move this country 50%-75% of the way to a socialist state. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:12:53 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:12:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Every time a liberal appears on television there are > millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', > 'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > I agree. People always like to classify people into groups. Leftists call me "fascist" while right-wingers call me "liberal" when in fact, I am a psuedo libertarian minarchist atheist social utilitarian that prefers a strong defense. I think this comes from the human desire to classify all things into groups, combined with the need to exaggerate to make a point. Lack of education makes it worse, since the less educated aren;t even aware of how many "groups" there are. They are forced to place many people into one group even though the people in those groups may have enough differences to cause them to start killing each other. This is why most Americans place all people of middle-eastern descent into a single group called "rag-heads" even though shi'ite muslims and sunnis are different enough to kill each other over it. Just remember, conservatives aren;t the only ones guilty of this kind of behavior. :-) From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 16 20:18:42 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:18:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org Message-ID: <199550-220049416201842596@M2W063.mail2web.com> From: Bill Thanks Bill for providing specific information. Too Bernhard is a lousy journalist and known to make up information and even, from time to time, lie. So, who is to believe him? Long article from LA Weekly Aug 6, 2004, about MoveOn: Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 20:39:51 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:39:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916203951.7834.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Americans are so rebellious that any attempt at nationalisation, any attempt at 50%-75% socialisation, would bring about a reaction. At this very moment you can be utterly certain the Rush Limbaughs of America are sharpening their knives in preparation for the possible election of Kerry just as they did in September of 1992 when Clinton was running for president. These matters are almost routine by now. If Kerry wins he would next year propose a health care plan which would be whittled down to a mere shadow of itself, as was done to HillaryCare in 1993. Don't you know how powerful the right wing in America is? This nation was set up by the Founders to have the Tories, Federalists, Whigs, and then finally the Democrats & Republicans at each others' political throats. It does not appear at this time that any form of socialism will come about in America in our lifetimes, and by the time socialism were to be feasible it would be outmoded. > the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for > the partial or > full nationalization of one or more sectors of our > economy which have > traditionally been mostly or solely private > enterprise driven. These > include health care, firearms, the media, securities > markets, > transportation and real estate. That is a very > significantly socialist > agenda that would move this country 50%-75% of the > way to a socialist state. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 16 20:43:49 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:43:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c49c2d$e5403bf0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Mike I solved both levels within four days of the appearance of the billboard a couple of months ago in Mountain View. Solutions available upon request. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Mike Lorrey > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:53 AM > To: extropy-chat at extropy.org > Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique > > > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 20:55:16 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:55:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040916205516.88508.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the choice for Kerry earlier this year. To think at one time the electorate actually had to think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough choice. But son of Bush? Hell no. >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > guilty of this kind of > behavior. :-) ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From zahiralpaslan at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 20:55:37 2004 From: zahiralpaslan at yahoo.com (Zahir Y. Alpaslan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] EVOLVING PERCEPTION: TIME, SPACE AND THE HUMAN BODY Message-ID: <20040916205537.39139.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> I just got an email about this event, if you are living in Los Angeles area you can go to USC Health Sciences Campus to view. EVOLVING PERCEPTION: TIME, SPACE AND THE HUMAN BODY Sponsored by USC IGM Art Gallery and Friends of the IGM Every day from Fri, September 10, 2004 through Sun, October 31, 2004 from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm Admission: Free Institute for Genetic Medicine (IGM) CSC 240 Health Sciences Campus Six revolutionary artists utilize cutting edge, hi-tech tools to explore the way in which modern electronic technology changes perceptions about time and space in an industrialized society. Each piece of art requires a computer to either produce or present the work. Exhibited along side classic prints and sculptures, this installation - representing the work of artists Lev Manovich, Mark Meadows, Marcos Novak, Shelby Ring, Nathan Shedroff and Bob Sturm - includes a volumetric display, networked ocean buoys, computer screens and music. In addition to the exhibit and physical installations, artists and community leaders present discussions on the work and motivations. More Information: http://www.usc.edu/igm lcrandall at att.net 310-479-1817 Zahir Zahir YILMAZ Alpaslan www.zahiralpaslan.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 16 20:57:04 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:57:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c49c2f$b9078410$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > ...urge Congress and the FTC to revoke Fox News' right > to use "Fair and Balanced" as its slogan. By all means let us promote CBS. I never thought I would see the day when Dan Rather's credibility fell well below that of his rival Geraldo Rivera. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Sep 16 21:17:30 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:30 -0700 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > >I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but even if one can conclude >from this that people have souls, this is definitely not the *only* >conclusion that we can draw here. Much more effective alternative is to >focus on subjective experience because that's the only thing that stays the >same throughout memory fluctuations or changes in personality. I want people >to think about identity from the perspective of subjective experience rather >than from the perspective of memories and personalities. > > > Key point: Subjective experience certainly does not "stay the same" in any measurable sense. Subjective experience is highly malleable, subject to gaps, distortions, and revisions. The conceptual difficulty is because the only way we have to interrogate subjective experience is via the same mechanism that creates the illusion that it is whole and continuous. This is the crux of the endless debate about qualia, the so-called "hard problem of consciousness", and personal identity. Descartes was fundamentally mistaken. - Jef From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 23:02:43 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:02:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But socialism and democracy aren't exclusive either so Hitler could have been a fascist, democratic socialist. BAL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > --- Brian Lee wrote: > >> Can't you be a fascist and a monarchist? They don't seem exclusive to >> me. Wasn't Hitler a democratist and a fascist? > > Socialist and fascist (hence the term "National Socialist Workers > Party"). > > There tends to be hostility, resentment, and conflict between groups in > the same political arena that espouse nationalist vs internationalist > versions of their philosophy, as well as between factions arguing about > forced imposition of policies vs consensus/conversion/evolution of > policy. It is happening today in the GOP, the DNC, and the LP. > > It happened between the Nationalist Stalinists and the Internationalist > Trotskyists. > > This might hint that the old Nolan chart should also have a third axis > focused on foreign policy, ranging from interventionist to > isolationist. Perhaps another focusing on whether individuals should > right their own wrongs or rely on the state to do it for them. > > While we can quibble over who is or is not a socialist or a libertarian > (an anarchist is a libertarian but a libertarian is not necessarily an > anarchist) the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for the partial or > full nationalization of one or more sectors of our economy which have > traditionally been mostly or solely private enterprise driven. These > include health care, firearms, the media, securities markets, > transportation and real estate. That is a very significantly socialist > agenda that would move this country 50%-75% of the way to a socialist > state. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dwish at indco.net Thu Sep 16 23:37:03 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:37:03 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c2f$b9078410$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <200409162249.i8GMneS9030567@br549.indconet.com> Maybe someone should hit him with a chair....lol Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Spike Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:57 PM To: 'BillK'; 'ExI chat list' Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > ...urge Congress and the FTC to revoke Fox News' right > to use "Fair and Balanced" as its slogan. By all means let us promote CBS. I never thought I would see the day when Dan Rather's credibility fell well below that of his rival Geraldo Rivera. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dwish at indco.net Thu Sep 16 23:47:04 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:47:04 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916205516.88508.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409162259.i8GMxgS9030700@br549.indconet.com> I think Kerry's position on Gay's is that he supports gays but not really their right to marry but maybe be together like being married but not really being married but maybe. As for stem cell research, Bush ever said he didn't support it, just that he is protective of the unborn being harvested to supplied the rich guy in the Hamptons a new business model, abortion clinic/stem cell center and all on tax payer dollars. I do think the private sector is doing great without help from the government and regulations that would go along with it. I think most people should take a good and cautious look at the possible problems with the issue before jumping up, taking a sign, and marching down the street. Besides these days they may throw you in jail or worse...Wait you think they monitor these emails...lol Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Trend Ologist Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the choice for Kerry earlier this year. To think at one time the electorate actually had to think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough choice. But son of Bush? Hell no. >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > guilty of this kind of > behavior. :-) ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 00:04:11 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:04:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <200409162259.i8GMxgS9030700@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <20040917000411.32311.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You could very well be correct concerning Bush's position on stem cell research, but any positions Kerry might have taken or will take before the election against the rights or prerogatives of gays can be automatically discounted; after the election it's a different ball game. If a true liberal, and Kerry is a real liberal with an ADA rating of 92, says he is opposed to any gay activist position, he or she is almost certainly being disingenuous. Do you expect Kerry to say he unequivocably advocates gay marriage in a nation as conservative as America? America is not the Netherlands. > I think Kerry's position on Gay's is that he > supports gays but not really > their right to marry but maybe be together like > being married but not really > being married but maybe. As for stem cell research, > Bush ever said he didn't > support it, just that he is protective of the unborn > being harvested to > supplied the rich guy in the Hamptons a new business > model, abortion > clinic/stem cell center and all on tax payer > dollars. I do think the private > sector is doing great without help from the > government and regulations that > would go along with it. I think most people should > take a good and cautious > look at the possible problems with the issue before > jumping up, taking a > sign, and marching down the street. Besides these > days they may throw you in > jail or worse...Wait you think they monitor these > emails...lol > > Dustin Wish > System Engineer & Programmer > INDCO Networks > Pres. OSSRI > ******************************************************** > "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead > where there is no path and leave a trail." > Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) > *********************************************** > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On > Behalf Of Trend Ologist > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry > because > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. > The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): > easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the > choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the > choice for Kerry earlier this year. > To think at one time the electorate actually had to > think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson > versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough > choice. > But son of Bush? Hell no. > > >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > > guilty of this kind of > > behavior. :-) > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW > Yahoo! > Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 00:08:09 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:38:09 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc04091617086c605a52@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:07:28 -0700, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. Why do you say that? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > - Joe From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 01:00:05 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917000411.32311.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > You could very well be correct concerning Bush's > position on stem cell research, but any positions > Kerry might have taken or will take before the > election against the rights or prerogatives of gays > can be automatically discounted; after the election > it's a different ball game. > If a true liberal, and Kerry is a real liberal with > an ADA rating of 92, says he is opposed to any gay > activist position, he or she is almost certainly being > disingenuous. > Do you expect Kerry to say he unequivocably advocates > gay marriage in a nation as conservative as America? > America is not the Netherlands. No it isn't, and as much as I support the right of individuals to self determine, marriage is not an issue the federal government has any Constitutional authority to legislate about, pro or con. It is a state issue. Nor are proponents of gay marriage honest about what they really want. You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social security benefits inheritance. Now if people really wanted to fix THAT, the right and libertarian thing to do would be to end social security inheritance for everybody. That would probably save social security too ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From joe at barrera.org Fri Sep 17 01:33:06 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:33:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04091617086c605a52@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> <710b78fc04091617086c605a52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> Emlyn wrote: > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > Why do you say that? I interviewed there twice. I was completely and totally unimpressed with the interview process. I'm a systems-level programmer with a lot of experience on Windows. My resume makes that pretty clear with many concrete examples. For my first interview, everyone to interview me was a GUI programmer... because of course Windows means GUI. No. So I spoke to the HR person and tried to clarify what my background was. My second interview was with Linux kernel hackers who wanted to know if I knew exactly what data structures Linux used to implement TCP. (Now I have hacked kernels, but mostly Mach and BSD, at the VM and IPC and filesystem levels, not networking.) Maybe once you get past the interview stage, things are wonderful. But the impression I got of the place was of complete disorganization and unprofessionalism. Maybe I've been in industry for too long and away from graduate school for too long. Maybe they would have been a great place to work for straight out of grad school. But over time I've moved from working in fun research labs that produced little of use, to working in startups which are clearly focused on specific goals. So in summary: I'm just too old and crotchety :-) - Joe From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 17 01:47:36 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:47:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/16/04 12:45) Mike Lorrey wrote: > the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for the partial or >full nationalization of one or more sectors of our economy And they're campaigning against an administration that has done more to curtail our civil liberties and to institute a de facto Christian theocracy in this country than any 20th century administration. Go them! (Hint: Remember that on the Nolan chart, both the liberals and the conservatives each have "half of libertarianism." Considering how badly the House Republicans have fscked up the federal budget, I see no real difference between them and the so-called tax-and-spend Democrats. With that axis of the Nolan chart is out of play, the Democrats as the only real choice in this election.) Also, one thing that BillK implied, but didn't outright say, about MoveOn is that they have made an interesting experiment in decentralized fundraising efforts - essentially trying to perfect what the Dean campaign clumsily tried to accomplish. That, in and of itself gives me hope that others are starting to think in terms of self-organizing systems in real world. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 01:49:51 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:49:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917014951.43859.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Marriage is indeed not an issue the federal government has any constitutional authority to interfere with. Though I don't care about social security inheritance, I do harbor hidden motives in promoting an agenda of gay activism: to help erode monogamy in the long run (as a libertarian you accept maximum freedom of choice; providing alternatives to monogamy is maximizing free choice). However we both agree America is a conservative nation and it would seem monogamy is not immediately threatened. But I accept devolution arguments because the more red states struggle against gay marriage, the more of a counterreaction is instigated- continuing a self-perpetuating struggle. That is how the status quo is altered. > marriage is not an issue the federal > government has any > Constitutional authority to legislate about, pro or > con. It is a state > issue. Nor are proponents of gay marriage honest > about what they really > want. You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular > legal marriage with > contract law and business partnership agreements, > except ONE: social > security benefits inheritance. > > Now if people really wanted to fix THAT, the right > and libertarian > thing to do would be to end social security > inheritance for everybody. > That would probably save social security too > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 17 01:55:39 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:55:39 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/16/04 18:00) Mike Lorrey wrote: >You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with >contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social >security benefits inheritance. Not true. Try going to the hospital, even with a health care power of attorney, to sit at the bedside of someone who isn't in your immediate family. The HCPA will let you see their doctor, but the doctor will keep you from seeing your partner. Seen that. Very ugly. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 02:07:31 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:37:31 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: References: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409161907476b5e67@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:55:39 -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > (9/16/04 18:00) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with > >contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social > >security benefits inheritance. > > > Not true. Try going to the hospital, even with a health care power of attorney, to sit at the bedside of someone who isn't in your immediate family. The HCPA will let you see their doctor, but the doctor will keep you from seeing your partner. Seen that. Very ugly. > > B > > > > -- > Brent Neal > Geek of all Trades > http://brentn.freeshell.org > > "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > This is a bit of a weird suggestion... For these purposes of being family, perhaps also relevant wrt inheritance, could a gay couple adopt each other, so that each was the legal adopted child of the other? Crazy, but maybe it would achieve family status? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 02:15:20 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:15:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <200409162259.i8GMxgS9030700@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <000c01c49c5c$34f4cfc0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Trend Ologist > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues... Trend, have you checked out Kerry's opponent on these issues? Please do, you will like what you see: http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/GayIssues.php http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/HealthCare.php spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 02:27:34 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:27:34 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> Message-ID: <000e01c49c5d$e7ae54f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Joseph S. Barrera III > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique > > > Emlyn wrote: > > > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > > > Why do you say that? The reason I didn't pursue a job there when I solved their (really cool) math puzzles: every job they described in their recruitment website can be offshored to countries where they can be performed at a dramatically lower cost. I have a spin on Murphy's famous law that applies especially well to the US and Europe over the next 10 to 20 years: Any job that can be exported, will be. spike From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 02:36:49 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:36:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000c01c49c5c$34f4cfc0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this moment has a 50-50 chance of winning. Conservative Americans would not elect a libertarian candidate president anymore than they would elect a socialist candidate president. Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian beatnik. > Trend, have you checked out Kerry's opponent on > these issues? > Please do, you will like what you see: > > http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/GayIssues.php > > http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/HealthCare.php > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 02:41:14 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:11:14 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <000e01c49c5d$e7ae54f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> <000e01c49c5d$e7ae54f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409161941222842f8@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:27:34 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Joseph S. Barrera III > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique > > > > > > Emlyn wrote: > > > > > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > > > > > Why do you say that? > > > The reason I didn't pursue a job there when I solved their > (really cool) math puzzles: every job they described in their > recruitment website can be offshored to countries where they > can be performed at a dramatically lower cost. > > I have a spin on Murphy's famous law that applies especially > well to the US and Europe over the next 10 to 20 years: > > Any job that can be exported, will be. > > spike > Do you guys think these jobs are being exported successfully? I've been reading about "onshoring" in the tech industry in the US recently; apparently there's a bit of a backlash going on. http://www.aspnews.com/trends/article.php/3344651 http://www.infoage.idg.com.au/index.php/id;101925378;fp;4;fpid;528913576 http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3335461 http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/7959748.htm -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 02:40:30 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:40:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c49c5f$b654bf50$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Brent Neal > ...I see no > real difference between them and the so-called tax-and-spend > Democrats... > > Brent Nor do I. The difference is one is tax-and-spend, the other is cut-taxes-and-spend-anyway. What we desperately need is cut-taxes-and-cut-spending. Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. I think you said you are from Taxifornia? Me too. We have the luxury of voting for whoever we think is best here, without fear of actually effecting the outcome of the election. {8-] spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 02:44:53 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040917024453.31516.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (9/16/04 18:00) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with > >contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social > >security benefits inheritance. > > > Not true. Try going to the hospital, even with a health care power > of attorney, to sit at the bedside of someone who isn't in your > immediate family. The HCPA will let you see their doctor, but the > doctor will keep you from seeing your partner. Seen that. Very ugly. POWER OF ATTORNEY Ever heard of it? With a living will, your power of attorney assignee has the authority to visit you to ascertain your level of care. Problem is you (or whoever you are talking about) didn't use the right code words. You don't say "I'm his gay partner", you say "I'm his power of attorney". Gay partner doesn't mean shit, sorry to say, but power of attorney holds the keys to the kingdom. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Sep 17 02:49:58 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:49:58 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Be that as it may, I will vote for Badnarik. I am sick and tired of trying to vote for "the lesser of two evils" only to walk out of the voting booth feeling rotten and ashamed. Regards, MB On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Trend Ologist wrote: > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning. Conservative > Americans would not elect a libertarian candidate > president anymore than they would elect a socialist > candidate president. > Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable > to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian > beatnik. From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 02:52:18 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:52:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c5f$b654bf50$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040917025218.46415.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No offense, but this is an example of globaloney: " And the world will live as six billion". The older I get, the less I'm interested in what ought to be, and more interested in what is... and what is is not the possibility of six billion living in relative harmony. >And the world will live as 6 billion. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 03:07:29 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:07:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Trend Ologist > > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning... Well he did, at least until old 527 Rather lent his support. Check it now: http://www.electoral-vote.com/ I've been watching this site for several weeks. It has gotten *dramatically* redder in the past week. (What color is libertarian?) > Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable > to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian > beatnik. Ja that name is unfortunate indeed. (I am viewing DVDs of the Bullwinkle show, with villain Boris Badinov.) Every American president has had an Anglican sounding name, with the possible exception of Van Buren (no *steins, no *skis, no *iks, not even *as or *os.) Same with vice presidents, with the possible exception of J. Danforth Quayle. (Quayle? What the hell is that?) But right now I would prefer a wicked Russian beatnik to the two front runners. spike From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 03:15:57 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20040917031557.27337.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > Emlyn wrote: > > > Not that I personally would recommend working > for Google. > > > > Why do you say that? > > I interviewed there twice. I was completely and > totally unimpressed with > the interview process. I'm a systems-level > programmer with a lot of > experience on Windows. My resume makes that pretty > clear with > many concrete examples. For my first interview, > everyone to interview > me was a GUI programmer... because of course Windows > means GUI. > No. So I spoke to the HR person and tried to clarify > what my background > was. My second interview was with Linux kernel > hackers who wanted > to know if I knew exactly what data structures Linux > used to implement > TCP. (Now I have hacked kernels, but mostly Mach and > BSD, at the > VM and IPC and filesystem levels, not networking.) Ah, that would probably be because they don't have a lot of use for Windows-specific programming. They have use for GUI, and they have use for Linux-specific stuff since that's their servers. But Windows? Maybe minor products like Google Toolbars (which are, again, mainly GUI), but that's hardly their main business. So, no, if you're primarily a Windows programmer you probably wouldn't have much of a match there. On the other hand, if your focus is, say, Web programming... From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 03:41:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040917034129.91847.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, especially this year, when the main choices are tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber. Its hard to pull the curtain, push the buttons, and hold your nose at the same time at the voting booth. --- MB wrote: > > Be that as it may, I will vote for Badnarik. I am sick and tired of > trying to vote for "the lesser of two evils" only to walk out of the > voting booth feeling rotten and ashamed. > > Regards, > MB > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Trend Ologist wrote: > > > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning. Conservative > > Americans would not elect a libertarian candidate > > president anymore than they would elect a socialist > > candidate president. > > Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable > > to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian > > beatnik. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From paul.bridger at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 03:47:58 2004 From: paul.bridger at gmail.com (Paul Bridger) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:47:58 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <3fec8940409162047397296b6@mail.gmail.com> Check out the cartograph for a more intuitive grasp of the situation: http://www.electoral-vote.com/carto/sep16c.html On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:07:29 -0700, Spike wrote: > http://www.electoral-vote.com/ From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 03:53:32 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:53:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <000001c49c69$e6c202b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > > Trend Ologist > > > > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning... > > Well he did, at least until old 527 Rather > lent his support. Check it now: > http://www.electoral-vote.com/ >I've been watching this site for several weeks. It >has gotten *dramatically* redder in the past week. Check this. I kept track of the number of predicted electoral votes for W in the right column and whats- his-name in the left: WHN W 1-Sep-04 242 280 2-Sep-04 252 270 3-Sep-04 252 270 4-Sep-04 252 270 5-Sep-04 252 270 6-Sep-04 247 275 7-Sep-04 237 275 8-Sep-04 264 222 9-Sep-04 243 254 10-Sep-04 252 254 11-Sep-04 273 233 12-Sep-04 273 233 13-Sep-04 269 233 14-Sep-04 238 291 15-Sep-04 238 296 16-Sep-04 223 311 Im not sure if there is any cause-effect relationship, but note that 8 September is the day 60 Minutes broke the newly-discovered-Bush-documents story. By the next day a lot of us had realized the documents were forgeries after viewing the online PDFs. Thru the week, more and more people evidently came to the same conclusion. On 15 September the late Dan Rather himself admitted that there were serious questions regarding the documents (while reprehensibly refusing to retract the story). Surely this is all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. Perhaps the forged documents were planted by some Limbaughian scoundrel, poison bait which DNCBS, the NY Times and the Boston Globe all devoured with glee, from which they are still wretching violently. Whaddya think? From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 04:14:52 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:14:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040916205516.88508.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm voting for Kerry because he supports anything I choose to believe. If I am for something, he is for it. If I change my mind to be against that same thing, you can bet that he supports that point of view as well. How fortunate I will be to have a president that can be simultaneously for and against everything! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trend Ologist" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. > The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): > easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the > choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the > choice for Kerry earlier this year. > To think at one time the electorate actually had to > think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson > versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough choice. > But son of Bush? Hell no. > > >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > > guilty of this kind of > > behavior. :-) > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 04:44:00 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:44:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <3fec8940409162047397296b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301c49c70$f9d12500$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Cool thanks Paul. Check this, I thought I would wet my diapers: http://www.jibjab.com/default.asp > Paul Bridger > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > > Check out the cartograph for a more intuitive grasp of the situation: > http://www.electoral-vote.com/carto/sep16c.html > From jonkc at att.net Fri Sep 17 04:51:08 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 00:51:08 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <002501c49c72$0521ea10$50f54d0c@hal2001> "Slawomir Paliwoda" > Identity doesn't evaporate even when mind process stops. Sometimes that is true. > Pausing process' activity is not the same as > destroying it. Dropping a brain in a vat of liquid nitrogen will certainly pause its activity, but if we are very lucky it will not destroy it. > I want people to think about identity from the perspective > of subjective experience rather than from the perspective > of memories and personalities. Your memories and that bundle of mental abilities and emotions we call personality are subjective experience and they are the only part of me that I really want to survive; I don?t much care if my left big toe survives or not. > The error in your reasoning is the phrase "instantly swapped > the location of you and the copy". You can't just "instantly" > swap matter in space-time. I said ?instantly? just for simplicity, my thought experiment does not require it; I can take as much time as I want to swap every atom in your body with the original Slawomir Paliwoda standing next to you. There is no way my making such a switch can make the slightest difference either objectively or subjectively and there is no way you can tell if I really did anything at all because one hydrogen atom is identical to another. > will carve a unique trajectory in space-time. Because there can > only be one and only one such trajectory, it is possible to > track the identity of any object. That ?unique trajectory? is more like a dog?s breakfast because all the atoms in your body and brain are in a constant flux, you are quite literally not the man you were a year ago. > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > parameters (x,y,z,t). That is one of your errors right there, asking for the coordinates of a mind is like asking where ?red? is or ?fast? or ?big?. A brain may or may not have a unique location (it could be distributed) but the mind does not, it might not even know or need to know anything about the brain that is producing it. > Threrefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting > the log detailing locations of my mind in space and time, I?m not saying you can?t devise a thought experiment where you can determine who is the original and who is the copy, I?m saying you can also devise ones where you can not. Thought experiment: You and the original (or you and the copy, hard to say) are standing next to each other. I flip a coin and then take out my Magnum 44 and shoot one of you in the head. I then bring out a sealed envelope containing the only log that can prove definitely who was the copy and who was the original and hand it to the one I did not shoot. You (the survivor) feel fine happy and healthy, you feel just like you remember feeling in the past, so do you open the envelope or burn it? And if you open it and find you are the copy is there any reason to be distressed? > My point is that two *different* objects cannot occupy >the same location in space and time. That?s only true of things that obey The Pauli Exclusion Principle and not everything does. Two different photons of light can occupy the same location in space and time, but it doesn?t really matter because mind is not an object. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 04:50:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:50:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <3fec8940409162047397296b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401c49c71$dcab2e20$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Since this appears to be politics night, Ill offer this. I was amazed at how well this quiz describes my attitudes: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blgeorgewbushquiz.htm (8^D spike From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 04:53:04 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 05:53:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040917045304.56406.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> The alternative is to vote for a guy who thinks he talks to God when he prays. Why doesn't Bush pray to Jesus to come to earth to run for president himself? Maybe the reason I'm voting for Kerry is because of the hypercriticality of the electorate- they want a candidate who is has the bravery of Audie Murphy, the body of Schwarzenegger, who speaks like Lincoln, and who lives at Valley Forge. Is everyone as fickle as Americans? Clinton was accused of being a draft dodger, and now when a guy runs for president who is not a draft dodger, all of a sudden it isn't good enough. Why doesn't America start a long term program to build an android for president? We could vote on what we want president android to look like and how to speak. Program the android to tell the truth. Build the android to be a combination of all races and to have no gender. The android should have a term limit chip implanted in its brain so it wont try to be re-elected. > Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm voting for Kerry because he supports anything I > choose to believe. If I > am for something, he is for it. If I change my mind > to be against that same > thing, you can bet that he supports that point of > view as well. How > fortunate I will be to have a president that can be > simultaneously for and > against everything! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trend Ologist" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > > > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry > because > > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay > issues. > > The choice in this election (and the 2000 > election): > > easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the > > choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make > the > > choice for Kerry earlier this year. > > To think at one time the electorate actually had > to > > think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson > > versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough > choice. > > But son of Bush? Hell no. > > > > >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > > > guilty of this kind of > > > behavior. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW > Yahoo! > Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 05:01:29 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:01:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040917050129.70197.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You just might have a point here. I'll stay away from this e-list for seven weeks so as not to heave up politics every day. Will come back right before the election. > But right now I would prefer a wicked Russian > beatnik to > the two front runners. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 05:15:09 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:15:09 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: > >I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but even if one can conclude > >from this that people have souls, this is definitely not the *only* > >conclusion that we can draw here. Much more effective alternative is to > >focus on subjective experience because that's the only thing that stays the > >same throughout memory fluctuations or changes in personality. I want people > >to think about identity from the perspective of subjective experience rather > >than from the perspective of memories and personalities. > Subjective experience certainly does not "stay the same" in > any measurable sense. That's why I talk about the concept of tangible mind process that serves as a container for intangible subjective experience. Defining the nature of subjective experience is not necessary to define personal identity. If we recognize that subjective experience, whatever it is, happens inside a computational substrate of the mind, i.e., inside a physical object whose location in space and time can always be measured, we can conclude that personal identity is rooted in the uniqueness of the mind process in space-time. Slawomir From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Sep 17 08:45:59 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:45:59 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c69$e6c202b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000001c49c69$e6c202b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: Spike: What about the 9/11 anniversary. Surely this had some effect as well? best, patrick On 17 Sep 2004, at 05:53, Spike wrote: > Check this. I kept track of the number of predicted > electoral votes for W in the right column and whats- > his-name in the left: > > WHN W > 1-Sep-04 242 280 > 2-Sep-04 252 270 > 3-Sep-04 252 270 > 4-Sep-04 252 270 > 5-Sep-04 252 270 > 6-Sep-04 247 275 > 7-Sep-04 237 275 > 8-Sep-04 264 222 > 9-Sep-04 243 254 > 10-Sep-04 252 254 > 11-Sep-04 273 233 > 12-Sep-04 273 233 > 13-Sep-04 269 233 > 14-Sep-04 238 291 > 15-Sep-04 238 296 > 16-Sep-04 223 311 > > Im not sure if there is any cause-effect relationship, > but note that 8 September is the day 60 Minutes broke the > newly-discovered-Bush-documents story. By the next > day a lot of us had realized the documents were for