From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 02:14:32 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 19:14:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040831122718.01a86ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <03b201c48fc9$6edc3420$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Damien Broderick > Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead > > > It's just very, very calm. > > Is it the weather? Not the Olympics, for dog's sake? > > No, I don't have anything interesting to add either. > > Damien Broderick > [snooooze...] We are listening to Ahhhhnold. This guy brings tears to my eyes. He sounds so libertarian, ya gotta love him. {8-] spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 1 02:22:34 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:22:34 +1000 Subject: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense) References: <200408310604.i7V64Mn14256@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <001101c48fca$8ac441e0$362c2dcb@homepc> "KPJ" wrote: > There exists a number of humans who use the power of deadly > force to back their control over some specific territory. Some > 60 earth years ago, a number of these humans decided to force > other humans to fight in an event usually called World War II. > > After this event ended, those humans who made the other > humans lose the control of their territory ("the victors") decided > to form an organization with a written set of rules. They named > the organization United Nations and called the written rules a > "charter". > > According to these rules humans who represent the humans who > rule over some of specific territories shall meet, and humans > representing some of these rulers have more to say over the > proceedings of the organization. > When the rulers of those territories decide that they do not want > follow the written rules of the organization, which humans in > which courts would prosecute them for not following those rules? Its hard to answer this as a hypothetical because details that you haven't provided matter. What is a ruler? A President elected for a 4 year term isn't a ruler of the same sort as the head of state of China. I think it is useful to consider member nations at the UN as falling into three different classes. Ordinary members, permanent security council members except the US, and the US alone as a special case. Ordinary members. If these sign treaties then disputes can be taken to the ICJ and the ICJ will make a ruling and if the members don't want to comply with it the Security Council MAY enforce compliance. I don't know (I am ignorant of) how often this process would have been used during the Cold War as the USSR and the US would have been far more likely to slant every issue their way via use of the veto. Permanent Security Council members. These are effectively immune from having UN authorised force used on them under ANY circumstances for the simple reason that they can veto the resolution that would be needed to authorise that force. PSC members may still have political or moral force or international outrage directed against them if they are thought by the citizens of other countries to have misbehaved but that is not legal force (ie not UN authorised force). The US - as sole remaining military superpower. The US is now in a class of its own in my opinion because it is the only member nation powerful enough to say to the UN that it will revoke the UN if the UN fails to perform its mandated tasks of maintaining international peace and security. The US can choose whether the world lives under conditions of honour or whether the foreseeable future is just about 'might makes right'. By the US here I mean US citizens voting and effecting the constitutions of their governments. No war, not even a just war could legally (ie legally under the UN Charter) be declared on the US as the US would veto it. Same for the other big 5. So in practice the only thing that is policing a US President that breaks international law are US citizens if they so choose too. The US citizens are the only ones that can remove a US President lawfully - at an election - or possible through impeachment which is pretty unlikely. It might be possible under some circumstances to hold a President to legal account under US domestic law for breaking international law (and in so doing harming US citizens that were relying on it), but I don't know about that. > - - - - - > > I believe the rulers sending representatives to the Security Council > to have act as the ultimate court over matters of the organization. > If they decide to not follow the written rules, then that's that. In societies of primates that watch each other intently and rotate our leaders from time to time there are ALWAYS consequences of being SEEN to have broken the rules. Not everyone who sees a lawbreaker cares about the victum but they keep a good eye on the perpetrator out of healthy self interest. Brett Paatsch From brian at posthuman.com Wed Sep 1 02:32:49 2004 From: brian at posthuman.com (Brian Atkins) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 21:32:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <03b201c48fc9$6edc3420$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <03b201c48fc9$6edc3420$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413534D1.2070802@posthuman.com> Spike wrote: > > We are listening to Ahhhhnold. This guy brings > tears to my eyes. He sounds so libertarian, > ya gotta love him. {8-] spike > Well he is from Austria... :-) -- Brian Atkins Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence http://www.singinst.org/ From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 03:18:04 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:18:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <7D7FF510-F9E1-11D8-8A37-000A959DA830@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/08/29/intel.chips.ap/index.html From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 1 05:23:01 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:23:01 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Academies lobby on cloning Message-ID: <006901c48fe3$c013d590$362c2dcb@homepc> Ahead of a UN debate in October, science academies support therapeutic cloning http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040831/02 "The United Nations (UN) General Assembly is expected to revisit the vexed issue of a convention on human cloning this fall, with a vote tentatively scheduled for October 21-22." .. "The UN's debates on cloning in the recent years have been marked by bitter division, fundamental disagreements, and wrangling. Last year, countries rallied around two proposals-one from Costa Rica, supported by the United States, which called for a total ban, and another tabled by Belgium, which urged a ban on reproductive, but not therapeutic, cloning." --- Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vlora21 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:02:01 2004 From: vlora21 at hotmail.com (Vlora Hoti) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:02:01 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 06:15:47 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 07:15:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:18:04 -0700, Spike wrote: > Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/08/29/intel.chips.ap/index.html > Yes, but don't get over-excited by hype from Intel. Recently Intel has found it much easier to produce new roadmaps than actual product. These 65nm process chips won't be in volume production till mid-2006. AMD seems to be plugging away producing new chips while Intel is still redesigning. See: Besides, who needs faster chips anyway? (Apart from Doom3 gamers, that is ;) ) BillK From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 06:32:29 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:32:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <03ec01c48fed$74575c80$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:18:04 -0700, Spike wrote: > > Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/08/29/intel.chips.ap/index.html > > ... > > AMD seems to be plugging away producing new chips while Intel is still > redesigning. See: > >Besides, who needs faster chips anyway? >(Apart from Doom3 gamers, that is ;) BillK Math geeks. Giant prime number searchers. Microsloth users. Matlab users. SETI at homers. Protein folders. When it comes to speed, more Moore is *always* better, and will be for the foreseeable. spike ps This is cool tho, I have been cheering for AMD for a long time, not just because they are my neighbors. Always give the big guy some tough competition, so he will be all that he can be. Competition helps everyone excel. s From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 06:36:31 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:36:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> Spike wrote: >Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > They might possibly be able to produce more power full chips. But will there still be a reason to buy them? My motherboard recently came to a halt, and I had to choose whether if I should upgrade the entire machine, or just the motherboard. I choose the motherboard only solution, as my 1.2 GHz machine is already plenty fast for my needs. I can watch and edit video at professional quality, compose music, play a few games and generally do what I need to. So why should I buy a faster chip at a higher price? Generally I believe there is natural technological plateau for most of the current technological tasks. bussines (text editing/spreadsheets) -> music -> video -> vr games etc. Bussines computers have already been fast enough for a while for typical use. We will soon have chips at a level where all current tasks can be done on a cheap system. Why then bother to pay more? I think that new technology is needed before there will be a great need for much faster computers. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 07:20:57 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:50:57 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:36:31 +0200, Max M wrote: > Spike wrote: > > >Wooohooo! The party is not over! {8-] s > > > > They might possibly be able to produce more power full chips. But will > there still be a reason to buy them? > > My motherboard recently came to a halt, and I had to choose whether if I > should upgrade the entire machine, or just the motherboard. > > I choose the motherboard only solution, as my 1.2 GHz machine is already > plenty fast for my needs. > > I can watch and edit video at professional quality, compose music, play > a few games and generally do what I need to. So why should I buy a > faster chip at a higher price? > > Generally I believe there is natural technological plateau for most of > the current technological tasks. > > bussines (text editing/spreadsheets) -> music -> video -> vr games etc. > > Bussines computers have already been fast enough for a while for typical > use. We will soon have chips at a level where all current tasks can be > done on a cheap system. Why then bother to pay more? > > I think that new technology is needed before there will be a great need > for much faster computers. > > regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark > I agree that we are at the boundary for a lot of current tasks. I believe we are more than capable of using more processor speed, but we have a newish bottleneck, which is bandwidth. When we can have a couple more orders of magnitude of (low latency) bandwidth we'll be able to see very different applications (video things? Dunno, anyone?), which will result in our machines being flooded relatively constantly with vast amounts of data. Then we'll have a need for bigger processors to cope with the flood. Currently I more than use the (big) processors I have, but that's because I use VMWare virtual machines extensively to simulate corporate networks on my dev box. There are always new & useful ways to waste excess resources and solve previously thorny problems. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 07:53:50 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:53:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> Emlyn wrote: >On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 08:36:31 +0200, Max M wrote: > > >When we can have a couple more orders of magnitude of (low latency) >bandwidth we'll be able to see very different applications (video >things? Dunno, anyone?), which will result in our machines being >flooded relatively constantly with vast amounts of data. Then we'll >have a need for bigger processors to cope with the flood. > I don't think video will ever be a popular method of comunicating, compared to eg. email. It is far to expensive to produce video in any kind of meaningfull quality. But then again, technology usually blindside us, so video eqiuped cellular phones might make it relevant. But then again, my current computer can easily handle the video quality that the phones can spew out for the next several years. I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im tired of cleaning the house and garden. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 08:20:58 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 01:20:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <7a32170504090101202cd5d44e@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 09:53:50 +0200, Max M wrote: > > I don't think video will ever be a popular method of comunicating, > compared to eg. email. It is far to expensive to produce video in any > kind of meaningfull quality. > > But then again, technology usually blindside us, so video eqiuped > cellular phones might make it relevant. But then again, my current > computer can easily handle the video quality that the phones can spew > out for the next several years. > > I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster > processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im > tired of cleaning the house and garden. Those who think we don't need faster CPU's must be using a non-Micro$oft OS. Have you read what Redmond has planned for the next version of Windows? A completely new file system, all-graphics all the time, active security and God-knows-what-all constantly churning up CPU cycles in the background, and that doesn't even take into account the resource hogging changes they probably have planned for the next Office suite. But, for now, you're right. I have a 2.53 ghz P4 with a gig of RAM that can handle voice recognition, email, web surfing, word processing, PIM and time and billing software all cranking away simultaneously with no problem. But has anyone else noticed it seems like Moore's law is starting to slow down. Wasn't it supposed to double processing power every 18 months or so? I bought my 2.53 ghz box from Dell about 2 years ago. Where are the 5 ghz chips?? Last I checked they had barely cracked 3.5 ghz. My rule of thumb is I can't by a new PC until they're selling CPU's that run at twice the clock speed of my current machine. Yeah, my computer does what I need but I admit it, I'm a speed freak. Maybe next time I'll get a dual monitor and see just how many things I can *really* do at the same time... P.S. Thanks again to Emlyn for my brand new gmail account! From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 08:29:56 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:29:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 09:53:50AM +0200, Max M wrote: > I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster > processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im I think there is a world market for maybe five computers. --- T. J. Watson 640K ought to be enough for everybody. --- Bill Gates Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop. Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone performance. Need I to go on? Nevermind that Moore is not about performance, but integration density. Performance (as measured by benchmarks) doesn't follow that nice linear semilog plots. <-- How often need I say this sentence until people here stop using Moore as sloppy shorthand for faster computers? > tired of cleaning the house and garden. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 08:45:50 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:45:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090101202cd5d44e@mail.gmail.com> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <7a32170504090101202cd5d44e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040901084545.GS1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 01:20:58AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Those who think we don't need faster CPU's must be using a > non-Micro$oft OS. Have you read what Redmond has planned for the next What has CPU speed to do with user experience? My slowest machine (G4 iBook) has the best user experience by a far margin. My fastest machine (Athlon64) bites the bag both with XP and FC2 x86_64. > version of Windows? A completely new file system, all-graphics all WinFS won't be in Longhorn. But, then, Reiser4 takes even more CPU than Reiser3. Why are we still having file systems, for god's sake? This is 2004. Hello? > the time, active security and God-knows-what-all constantly churning Smart packet filters take up essentially no CPU. At least, at GBit Ethernet data rates. > up CPU cycles in the background, and that doesn't even take into > account the resource hogging changes they probably have planned for > the next Office suite. Yeah, gimme the paperclip in 3d, and a 3d desktop with rotating translucent windows. Not. > But, for now, you're right. I have a 2.53 ghz P4 with a gig of RAM > that can handle voice recognition, email, web surfing, word I am yet to see something one could call voice recognition. If I'm lucky, we'll have real voice recognition a decade downstream. Make that rather two decades. > processing, PIM and time and billing software all cranking away > simultaneously with no problem. But has anyone else noticed it seems Why are there video drops if the terminal scrolls? Why do I notice I/O in stuff requiring QoS? This is a solved problem since early 1960s. > like Moore's law is starting to slow down. Wasn't it supposed to No, Moore's on track. You must be confusing something here. > double processing power every 18 months or so? I bought my 2.53 ghz CAN SOMEONE PLEASE FOR A CHANGE NOT CONFUSE MOORE WITH COMPUTER PERFORMANCE? THANKS. I realize this list has lost its last traces of geek cred half a decade ago, but we at least we can make the effort, can't we? That was a rhetorical question, unfortunately. All the people who'd care have left long ago. > box from Dell about 2 years ago. Where are the 5 ghz chips?? Last I > checked they had barely cracked 3.5 ghz. My rule of thumb is I can't > by a new PC until they're selling CPU's that run at twice the clock > speed of my current machine. Yeah, my computer does what I need but I What has clock speed to do with computer performance? > admit it, I'm a speed freak. Maybe next time I'll get a dual monitor > and see just how many things I can *really* do at the same time... How do you think Doom 3 fares with a 600 dpi 21"? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 1 09:01:24 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 19:01:24 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY><41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk><710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com><4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <015301c49002$42108610$362c2dcb@homepc> Eugen wrote: > Current machines are too slow for real time body capturing from video. This is, I think, an area where progress on life-enhancing tech could be most accelerated. Spike mentioned protein folding, but any sort of modelling and graphical touring of biological and cellular processes that can put cheaper richer education tools in front of more people is likely to be all too the good. Humans learn faster with richer sources of information than text books, dissection labs and microscopes etc. We are fighting the wrong war on the wrong terror the wrong way. We should be putting visually rich and accurate integratable virtual learning environments in front of school kids. Let them see 3D graphical models of cells functioning normally and going cancerous. Let them play not just with 2D pictures at various scales but with systems, organs, tissues, cells. There is a war against a common enemy (disease) that has been going on for all of human history and one of the reasons we are so bad at fighting it is because we are fighting blind. The sort of tools we have for modelling cellular and subcellular processes are still far less than they could be and are still not distributed widely enough. Faster computers could give us eyes to see where we can't currently see. We know how to look we just haven't yet worked out what is worth looking at. Brett Paatsch From alito at organicrobot.com Wed Sep 1 10:02:21 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 20:02:21 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 10:29 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. Well, something's encoding them in real time, otherwise there would be no live transmission. Too slow for PC encoding maybe (but only if you don't have a suitable card i assume) > Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. I don't think there is any compiled C version of eclipse available (gcj is compiled java, and not even faster than interpreted java at that) (or maybe we are talking about different Eclipse's). (If i'm wrong, please do post a url) > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop > . This is independent of machine speed (but not independent of setup. my X runs fine) > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) Current crude FPSs run perfectly fine in current top of the line computers (saw it demonstrated nicely a couple of weeks ago. i've been out of touch from the gaming world for a number of years now, but they are doing fine without me. crude's come a long way). You must mean next gen fine FPSs. > Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. too slow for it to be solved in about a year and a half by mostly uni students. > Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. > Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone > performance. > Again, independent of machine speed. At all times desktop will be faster than mobile phones. But current mobile phones kick the shit out of 286s. > Need I to go on? > No. I agree completely with the intent of the message. alejandro From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 1 10:07:27 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 11:07:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:29:56 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. > Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop. > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) > Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. > Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. > Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone > performance. > > Need I to go on? > I think you need to define desktop computer a bit more clearly here. Yes, developer workstations will always want more processing power, but they are a small part of the market. Television and DVD players are a much better medium for watching video on. We may have stopped watching 100 channels of rubbish on TV, but the mass population haven't. High volume video is actually a brain-numbing experience. You stop thinking when you watch it. Do you really want to put that on your pc? Keen gamers will spend more on the latest graphics card than they spent on the computer. The DARPA challenge (and other AI) fails because we don't yet know how to write the requisite programs - not for lack of processing power. Yes, if Intel make better processors, then they will appear in all the computers we buy, because we won't have any choice. But will the majority of users *need* more processing power? I doubt it. More bandwidth, more on-line storage and more backup storage, - yes please! BillK From amara at amara.com Wed Sep 1 11:31:08 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:31:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Google Grants for 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations Message-ID: This might be useful to some people here... http://www.google.com/grants/ Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "I do not know." -- Joseph Louis Lagrange [summarizing his life's work] From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 10:41:28 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 12:41:28 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040901104128.GW1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 11:07:27AM +0100, BillK wrote: > I think you need to define desktop computer a bit more clearly here. Easy: the usual machine you pick up at the retailer for 1-2 k$. It's the same hardware that's being used for supercomputer clusters, plus magic interconnect (which doubles the price of each node). > Yes, developer workstations will always want more processing power, No, developer do fine on office-grade machines, actually. If software build is the bottleneck, you can always farm that out on a cluster. Few other tasks are such trivially parallelizable as a software build. > but they are a small part of the market. Gaming drives the high end part of the market. Absolute performance, not crunch/Wattage. Embedded DSP has giant volume, but trails performance/processes. Look at recommended hardware requirements for current top of the line codec playback. > Television and DVD players are a much better medium for watching video > on. We may have stopped watching 100 channels of rubbish on TV, but The display part is irrelevant, it's the decoding of the video stream it's where it's at. Codecs are in rapid flux, and hardware implementations are too inflexible. > the mass population haven't. High volume video is actually a > brain-numbing experience. You stop thinking when you watch it. Do you > really want to put that on your pc? I don't own/watch TV. I do watch DVD movies, though. One of the flat panels doubles as video (my 100$ DVD player has VGA output). > Keen gamers will spend more on the latest graphics card than they > spent on the computer. You'll need top line CPU+memory as well as a top line accelerator to achieve record frames per second. 3d graphics acceleration is useless for game AI. > The DARPA challenge (and other AI) fails because we don't yet know how > to write the requisite programs - not for lack of processing power. Each task has a minumum computational complexity. You can afford being sloppy by throwing more hardware at it, or vice versa. Up to a point. Realtime navigation in cluttered environments takes considerably more resources than a top line PC (more than a cluster of those, actually). How many generations down the curve do you need to package that into a small and tough enough footprint on small enough energy budget for automative applications? > Yes, if Intel make better processors, then they will appear in all the > computers we buy, because we won't have any choice. But will the I presume you mean Intel=AMD in above sentence. It doesn't matter on the long run. > majority of users *need* more processing power? I doubt it. Office users don't. At least not yet. Gamers do, most assuredly. Do you realize who's driving the sales in high-performance systems? > More bandwidth, more on-line storage and more backup storage, - yes please! Bandwidth is an infrastructure issue. 1 GBps to each home would be no problem with current technology, and 10 GBps is almost there. Storage size, not really, though a TByte RAID looks tight for a HDTV movie library. Something solid state with TByte throughput for about the same price, minus seek latency would be nice, though. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 11:33:48 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:33:48 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <4135B39C.1020804@mail.tele.dk> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 09:53:50AM +0200, Max M wrote: > > >>I cannot easily see a major technology that demands much faster >>processors. But hopefully it will something like a domestic robot. Im >> >> >Current machines are too slow for ... > I completely agree that there will always be a need for more performance, and that need will never stop. What I am worrying about is whether it will be affordable. Each new CPU generation fab doubles the cost. This has been covered by a higher usefulness of faster CPU's. More tasks could be solved for more people. There need to be a *big* market to cover the cost of a fab. But if the CPU production cost rises and the demand lowers, due to lack of new technology that can use the power for anything a mass market cares about. Then fewer new fabs will be built, and the development will take another direction. It's absolutely a possibility. What can offset it, is that it will be easier to implement new software on more powerful processors. Using higher level languages and better tools. But the new technologies are not as obvious as before, as all the low hanging fruits have been picked already. Bussines automation, multimedia, games etc. regards Max M From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 12:09:31 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:09:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 08:02:21PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. > > Well, something's encoding them in real time, otherwise there would be No, coding/decoding resources are asymmetrical. H.264 realtime HDTV encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, haven't looked), it doesn't matter. What matters is that how much hardware I need to replay H.264 off vanilla DVD or broadband video stream at the user end, codec's/container's sundry bells and whistles included, of course. > no live transmission. Too slow for PC encoding maybe (but only if you > don't have a suitable card i assume) By the time you can buy a card for H.264 realtime encoding the codec will be thoroughly obsolete. Synthesizing fully immersive realtime 3d environments for each viewer will be required, then. With current CPU you'd be hard pressed to render immersive audio (not even with physical modelling) aspect of that. Video? Oooh boy... > > Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. > > I don't think there is any compiled C version of eclipse available (gcj > is compiled java, and not even faster than interpreted java at that) (or > maybe we are talking about different Eclipse's). (If i'm wrong, please > do post a url) There's no native version of Eclipse available, apert from gcj you've mentioned. What I meant equivalent execution times for the usual JIT Java. This will take at least 3-4 times the CPU speed, if not more. > > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop > > . > > This is independent of machine speed (but not independent of setup. my > X runs fine) I meant unmodified (no xfce) default Fedora Core 2 Gnome end user reaction times. It will take at least an order of magnitude faster CPU to render that at XP desktop speed, all other things being equal. > > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) > > Current crude FPSs run perfectly fine in current top of the line > computers (saw it demonstrated nicely a couple of weeks ago. i've been Haven't checked, I presume you'll drop below 50-60 fps if you enable every bell and whistle. > out of touch from the gaming world for a number of years now, but they > are doing fine without me. crude's come a long way). You must mean next > gen fine FPSs. This is what I've actually meant, yes. > > Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. > > too slow for it to be solved in about a year and a half by mostly uni > students. Agreed, but highway routine vehicle navigation with error rate low enough to be acceptable for insurers is distinctly beyond a machine hall full of megabucks worth of current state of the art in beowulfery. DARPA's challenge is easier in comparison, grad students or no. They will manage that, in the next race, or the next after the next one, eventually. > > Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. > > Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone > > performance. > > > Again, independent of machine speed. At all times desktop will be > faster than mobile phones. But current mobile phones kick the shit out > of 286s. Absolutely. But there are lots of applications currently only available on desktops which would be very useful on a wearable platform, with the limited footprint, especially energetically. By the time 2 GHz dual Opterons fit into your shirt pocket (without burning a hole in your skin), how many desktop generation years have passed in the land? > > Need I to go on? > > > No. I agree completely with the intent of the message. Good for you! :) -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 12:09:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 4. Re: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as In-Reply-To: <63C99F56-FB81-11D8-BB08-000393530B86@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- maya gingery wrote: > IN reply: > > If you are inferring that Clinton's and Kerry's support of dialogue > directed toward making this world a safer place for EVERYONE is worse > than Bush's catastrophic EGoWAR that is NOT making this world a safer > place for ANYONE (say again, how much did Greece spend on security > for > the Olympics?), then I suggest you get off your pedestal and get some > help for your paranoid delusions. The world does not need people > like you. I suppose you think Abu Ghraib was just the boys and girls > having some fun. No problem with small arms down there! Guns? > That's for wimps. Let's do performance art! Last I checked, both Afghanistan and Iraq had teams participating at the Olympics for the first time in many years, and the first time ever free of the threat of torture as punishment for poor performance. "Those who would trade some degree of liberty for greater security deserve neither liberty, nor security." - Benjamin Franklin I'd rather live in a dangerous but free world than one that is safe but unfree. "Live free or die" as the saying goes. I'd also suggest that Greece would have had to spend less on security if they'd not been a clusterfuck up until a year before the event, and been threatened by the IOC with revokation of the games. "Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance" as my first sergeant once said. Oh, and they still couldn't keep the crowning event, the marathon, from being bunged up by a crazed defrocked priest who abducted the leading runner off the course. Poor fellow only came in 3rd after that. Just goes to show that even in a totally fascist state, you can never have perfect security... "The world doesn't need people like you"???? Is that some sort of threat? Beg to differ, and not to toot my own horn, but I've likely saved more lives directly, done more good for the environment through my inventions, and helped to expand liberty for more people in this world than you could ever dream of, and I will continue to do the same into the future. While dummies like you like to yak, people like me act, and make a difference. Performance art never ended a war, stopped a genocide, saved a life, created liberty, or started a revolution, unless you count actually doing those things as performance art. If you do, I am an A-lister... so thanks anyways for your criticism, but I get plenty of rave reviews. Ta ta. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natasha at natasha.cc Wed Sep 1 14:44:25 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 07:44:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040901073938.02c50510@mail.earthlink.net> At 04:02 PM 9/1/04 +1000, dude wrote: >hey dude. i recently signed up for the extropy lailing list cos i am >doing a school assignment on it. i was basically told find out what you >can about extropy and extropians, and present it to the class. now i have >no idea what any of this stuff means. so, if you have the time,do you >think you could email a bit of an explanation, and recomend some readings >in relation to it? If you hang around this list for a while you will discover intriguing ideas about the future, new technologies, application of technologies, social issues, concerns about the world and our place in it, and a few jokes and off the wall topics here and there. If you want to learn more about the philosophy of Extropy, go to the website at http://www.extropy.org and read the material there, especially the Principles of Extropy. If you would like to know how we are planning to deal with some of the Big issues concerning our future and extropian transhumanists, then read about the Proactionary Principle as a standard or measure for addressing a smart balance between caution and progress. Welcome to the list, Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Wed Sep 1 13:29:07 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:29:07 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <1094045347.1310.205.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 14:09 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 08:02:21PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > > Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. > > > > Well, something's encoding them in real time, otherwise there would be > > No, coding/decoding resources are asymmetrical. I understand. That's why i mentioned encoding assuming decoding would be trivial. > H.264 realtime HDTV > encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, > haven't looked), it doesn't matter. visiblelight seems to think that $325 will do. And if you don't like them, there seem to be many other companies offering alternatives. or am i missing something big here? > What matters is that how much > hardware I need to replay H.264 off vanilla DVD or broadband video stream at > the user end, codec's/container's sundry bells and whistles included, of course. > Both end matter i'd think. Encoding capabilities everywhere would be nice to have. Decoding seems to be available without any special hardware needed. > > no live transmission. Too slow for PC encoding maybe (but only if you > > don't have a suitable card i assume) > > By the time you can buy a card for H.264 realtime encoding the codec will be > thoroughly obsolete. As i mentioned above, it seems you can already do that. > Synthesizing fully immersive realtime 3d environments > for each viewer will be required, then. With current CPU you'd be hard > pressed to render immersive audio (not even with physical modelling) aspect > of that. Video? Oooh boy... > Immersive audio has been available for a while (depending on your definition of the term), mostly brought on by the soundblaster live and whatever its competitor was at the time (i forget). What happened i think is that they realised that noone cared, and few can even tell on how accurate the modelling is, so why waste cycles, or more importantly, coding time. video is a different story. > > > Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop > > > . > > > > This is independent of machine speed (but not independent of setup. my > > X runs fine) > > I meant unmodified (no xfce) default Fedora Core 2 Gnome end user reaction > times. It will take at least an order of magnitude faster CPU to render that > at XP desktop speed, all other things being equal. > I don't run xfce. Why the focus on fc2? If the software's properly screwed (ie waiting for a timeout somewhere), then no amount of hardware will help you. Try some others. My experience with XP has been brief, but it didn't feel any faster to me than my usual X/gnome running on a dinky 1 gig duron. > > > Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think > > > Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) > > > > Current crude FPSs run perfectly fine in current top of the line > > computers (saw it demonstrated nicely a couple of weeks ago. i've been > > Haven't checked, I presume you'll drop below 50-60 fps if you enable every > bell and whistle. > Yes. Much. Agreed. Even disabling bells and whistles in fact. (Agreed with rest too) From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 1 13:39:54 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 15:39:54 +0200 Subject: 4. Re: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as In-Reply-To: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4135D12A.5050600@mail.tele.dk> Mike Lorrey wrote: >I'd rather live in a dangerous but free world than one that is safe but >unfree. "Live free or die" as the saying goes. > Mike, the freedom loving US rhetoric is pretty hollow for most people living outside the US. There is no doubt that US citizens are among the most free people in the world. But the US governments respect for the freedom of people in other parts of the world isn't especially impressive. The terror problem cannot be solved with increasing power. As long as the US continues to govern the world by power and not from a morale high ground, they will keep setting them self up for terror attacks. They are not solving the problems that are causing the terror. The reason that the Al Queda is attacking the US is because they believe that the US is supporting opressive governments in the middle east for "practical" reasons. As long as these governments have US support, the people in the middle east feel that they cannot do anything to topple their governments and get the rule they want themself. And there has been plenty of examples showing that to be true. That the US is currently loosing the battle in Iraq isn't helping much either. Terrorist will take it as a sign of US impotense, despite all the impressive hardware. So they will feel far more certain that terror will work in the rest of the world, as well as it currently do in Iraq. And as time goes on, smaller groups will get more and more destructive power. If the US continues on the route they are currently on, i fear that in the future they will suffer terrorist attacks far worse than 9/11. If the US want to stop terror, they should stop supporting terror and suppressive rules. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 1 13:51:55 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:51:55 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <1094045347.1310.205.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <03ba01c48fd2$4ede4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <41356DEF.4070205@mail.tele.dk> <710b78fc040901002017b0ed3d@mail.gmail.com> <4135800E.30008@mail.tele.dk> <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> <1094032941.22825.170.camel@alito.homeip.net> <20040901120931.GY1458@leitl.org> <1094045347.1310.205.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <20040901135155.GA1458@leitl.org> On Wed, Sep 01, 2004 at 11:29:07PM +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > H.264 realtime HDTV > > encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, > > haven't looked), it doesn't matter. > > visiblelight seems to think that $325 will do. And if you don't like http://www.visiblelight.com/mall/productview.aspx?pid=582 is a 2U rackmount box which says "please contact us for pricing". This is usually a sign for professional price tags. (Though probably lower than 100 k$ which I pulled out of /dev/ass). http://www.visiblelight.com/mall/productview.aspx?pid=491 doesn't do HTDV, though I'm surprised that H.264 realtime encoding in hardware is already available. > them, there seem to be many other companies offering alternatives. or > am i missing something big here? Not much, just the HDTV part. And HDTV is just the beginning, current mid-range displays (though not yet video projectors) already do several megapixels. > Immersive audio has been available for a while (depending on your > definition of the term), mostly brought on by the soundblaster live and > whatever its competitor was at the time (i forget). What happened i > think is that they realised that noone cared, and few can even tell on > how accurate the modelling is, so why waste cycles, or more importantly, > coding time. Fraunhofer did sell it's first phased array sound system to the cinemas, though I do realize that being able to take a stroll through the orchester pit is not something even audiophiles would buy. True immersive audio (without instrument physical modelling, for each individual organ pipe and string) involves audio wavefront propagation in the full volumetric game world model, reflection and attenuation included. So you hear the echos, and feel the fog/snow. > video is a different story. Yes, our limit here are displays. There are some 3D LCD displays which take OpenGL drivers, but no immersive displays, whether individual HUDs or volumetric ones. > > I meant unmodified (no xfce) default Fedora Core 2 Gnome end user reaction > > times. It will take at least an order of magnitude faster CPU to render that > > at XP desktop speed, all other things being equal. > > > > I don't run xfce. Why the focus on fc2? If the software's properly I don't have a specific focus, every Xfree86 or X.org displays on speedy CPUs and reasonably recent nForce/ATI offering performs abysmally as compared to e.g. Windows display snappiness (everything else, particularly awful worst-case QoS is another story). It is an architecture issue, but changes in architecture takes years to decade, so it's effectively static in comparison to hardware advances. > screwed (ie waiting for a timeout somewhere), then no amount of hardware > will help you. Try some others. My experience with XP has been brief, > but it didn't feel any faster to me than my usual X/gnome running on a > dinky 1 gig duron. FC2 is particulary screwy, but XP is considerably snappier than the fastest X system I've seen. There will be slow progress (hopefully on FC3 already), but my point was that faster hardware is a poor man's solution to doing it right to start with. > Yes. Much. Agreed. Even disabling bells and whistles in fact. > > (Agreed with rest too) We do agree, and I'm overposting here today. Should be last post, at least on this thread. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amara at amara.com Wed Sep 1 16:04:30 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 17:04:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bayesian Jokes Message-ID: http://www.isye.gatech.edu/~brani/isyebayes/jokes.html Bayesian Jokes "Some of the jokes show ignorance of their makers and some are simply mean, but it is fun to see how the world jokes about Bayesians, and how Bayesians joke about themselves." -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "Math is Hard." --Barbie From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 1 15:04:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 08:04:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <20040901082956.GR1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <043801c49034$f67e0690$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Eugen Leitl... > Nevermind that Moore is not about performance, but > integration density. > Performance (as measured by benchmarks) doesn't follow that > nice linear > semilog plots. <-- How often need I say this sentence until > people here stop > using Moore as sloppy shorthand for faster computers? Im specifically interested in reducing feature size, in some ways even more so than increasing speed. My understanding is that given two processors running at the same clock speed with similar numbers of transistors, the one with the smaller features would use less power. Is that right? For M-Brain apps, that will be a huge factor. spike From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 15:22:02 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:22:02 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead Message-ID: Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect the girl's allergies. BAL >From: "scerir" >To: "ExI chat list" >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead >Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2004 20:07:49 +0200 > >"May you live in interesting times" > (Chinese curse) > >---------------------------------------- > >'Church says girl's communion not valid' > >Thursday, August 19, 2004 > >BRIELLE, New Jersey (AP) -- An 8-year-old girl who suffers from a rare >digestive disorder and cannot eat wheat has had her first Holy Communion >declared invalid because the wafer contained no wheat, violating Roman >Catholic doctrine. > >Now, Haley Waldman's mother is pushing the Diocese of Trenton and the >Vatican to make an exception, saying the girl's condition should not >exclude >her from the sacrament, which commemorates the Last Supper of Jesus Christ >before his crucifixion. The mother believes a rice Communion wafer would >suffice. > >"It's just not a viable option. How does it corrupt the tradition of the >Last Supper? It's just rice versus wheat," said Elizabeth Pelly-Waldman. > >Church doctrine holds that Communion wafers, like the bread served at the >Last Supper, must have at least some unleavened wheat. Church leaders are >reluctant to change anything about the sacrament. > >"This is not an issue to be determined at the diocesan or parish level, but >has already been decided for the Roman Catholic Church throughout the world >by Vatican authority," Trenton Bishop John M. Smith said in a statement >last >week. > >Haley was diagnosed with celiac sprue disease when she was 5. The disorder >occurs in people with a genetic intolerance of gluten, a food protein >contained in wheat and other grains. > >When consumed by celiac sufferers, gluten damages the lining of the small >intestine, blocking nutrient absorption and leading to vitamin >deficiencies, >bone-thinning and sometimes gastrointestinal cancer. > >The diocese has told Haley's mother that the girl can receive a low-gluten >wafer, or just drink wine at Communion, but that anything without gluten >does not qualify. Pelly-Waldman rejected the offer, saying her child could >be harmed by even a small amount of the substance. > >Haley's Communion controversy isn't the first. In 2001, the family of a >5-year-old Massachusetts girl with the disease left the Catholic church >after being denied permission to use a rice wafer. > >Some Catholic churches allow no-gluten hosts, while others do not, said >Elaine Monarch, executive director of the Celiac Disease Foundation, a >California-based support group for sufferers. > >"It is an undue hardship on a person who wants to practice their religion >and needs to compromise their health to do so," Monarch said. > >The church has similar rules for Communion wine. For alcoholics, the church >allows a substitute for wine under some circumstances, however the drink >must still be fermented from grapes and contain some alcohol. Grape juice >is >not a valid substitute. > >Haley, a shy, brown-haired tomboy who loves surfing and hates wearing >dresses, realizes the consequences of taking a wheat wafer. > >"I'm on a gluten-free diet because I can't have wheat. I could die," she >said last week. > >Last year, as the third grader approached Holy Communion age in this Jersey >Shore town, her mother told officials at St. Denis Catholic Church in >Manasquan that the girl could not have the standard host. > >After the church's pastor refused to allow a substitute, a priest at a >nearby parish volunteered to offer one, and in May, Haley wore a white >Communion dress, and received the sacrament alongside her mother, who had >not taken Communion since she herself was diagnosed with the disease. > >Last month, the diocese told the priest that the church would not validate >Haley's sacrament because of the substitute wafer. > >"I struggled with telling her that the sacrament did not happen," said >Pelly-Waldman. "She lives in a world of rules. She says 'Mommy, do we want >to break a rule? Are we breaking a rule?"' > >Pelly-Waldman is seeking help from the Pope and has written to Cardinal >Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith >in Rome, challenging the church's policy. > >"This is a church rule, not God's will, and it can easily be adjusted to >meet the needs of the people, while staying true to the traditions of our >faith," Pelly-Waldman wrote in the letter. > >Pelly-Waldman -- who is still attending Mass every Sunday with her four >children -- said she is not out to bash the church, just to change the >policy that affects her daughter. > >"I'm hopeful. Do I think it will be a long road to change? Yes. But I'm >raising an awareness and I'm taking it one step at a time," she said. > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From kpj at sics.se Wed Sep 1 16:20:35 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 18:20:35 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: Message from BillK of "Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:07:27 BST." Message-ID: <200409011620.i81GKZn23969@r2d2.sics.se> It appears as if Eugen Leitl wrote: | |Current machines are too slow for even current HDTV codecs. |Current machines are too slow for even Eclipse at compiled C speed. |Current machines are too slow for even X at speed of Windows XP desktop. |Current machines are too slow for even current crude FPS. (Why do you think |Sony PS3 needs 1000x the speed of PS2 to succeed?) |Current machines are too slow for even the DARPA race challenge. |Current machines are too slow for realtime body capturing from video. |Current machines are too slow for a current desktop in a mobile phone |performance. | |Need I to go on? You don't need a magical CPU-hungry application to slow down a personal computer. It can easily be done by starting a web browser, look through a wiki with most text pages and having "many" (say 10-15) windows open to different pages. With a few standard applications, like mail reader and an editor, the memory must eventually be swapped to disk and you get a rather slow personal computer. Depending on how fast your machine is, how much memory it has, how fast the disk I/O is, etc., it will happen sooner or later, but happen it will. A few "laws of nature" from the computer world: * The disk will always fill up. * The machine will become too slow. * You will need more bandwidth. * You will need more memory. In my experience, it has held for the latest 25-30 years, mainly because of this "natural law" of the computer world: * Software manufacturers tend to re-invent the wheel now and again. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 17:30:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore In-Reply-To: <043801c49034$f67e0690$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040901173057.92808.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > > Eugen Leitl... > > > Nevermind that Moore is not about performance, but > > integration density. > > Performance (as measured by benchmarks) doesn't follow that > > nice linear > > semilog plots. <-- How often need I say this sentence until > > people here stop > > using Moore as sloppy shorthand for faster computers? > > > Im specifically interested in reducing feature size, in > some ways even more so than increasing speed. My understanding > is that given two processors running at the same clock speed with > similar numbers of transistors, the one with the smaller features > would use less power. Is that right? For M-Brain apps, that will > be a huge factor. spike It would use less power to do the same amount of processing, but it also will have the potential to be faster simply because the paths between transistors are shorter, so they could be clocked faster than a larger dimensioned chip made of the same materials. What Intel is doing though is using more conductive materials: more copper, gold, and silver in the chip. These metals are also more thermally conductive than just silicon, so they cool better. Moore isn't directly about performance, but so much of the performance of a PC has absolutely nothing to do with the CPU: how much RAM, RAM speed, network bandwidth, bus speed, hard drive speed, etc Beyond this is the software, how MUCH software, and how well it is written. Integration density has an impact to varying degrees on many of these things, but not all of them, just as the efficiency of the engine on a car has a limited impact on the overall efficiency. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Sep 1 17:39:50 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 10:39:50 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] more moore Message-ID: <1094060390.6317@whirlwind.he.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: > No, coding/decoding resources are asymmetrical. H.264 realtime HDTV > encoding in studio can take 100 k$ of hardware (if there is such a thing yet, > haven't looked), it doesn't matter. What matters is that how much > hardware I need to replay H.264 off vanilla DVD or broadband video stream at > the user end, codec's/container's sundry bells and whistles included, of course. Back when I was actually working with H.264 codecs a year or two ago, realtime decode of full 1920x1200 HDTV video (or somewhere in that rez ballpark) was the domain of ASICs, but probably could be done native on high-end PC processors with well-engineered codecs these days. DVD quality video was decodable by high-end PCs natively. Decode is definitely something you'd want to put in an ASIC for general consumer consumption, though it is possible in native mode. H.264 HDTV encoding is another story altogether. To do it in realtime required an SGI ccNUMA refrigerator at the time. Monsterous quantities of crunch, and requiring serious amounts of usable RAM bandwidth. If I had to guess, a high-end dual processor PPC970 system dedicated to the task might have enough DSP crunch to manage full-code video in realtime with a highly optimized codec. And that is probably sitting a bit too close to the edge if you want maximize quality. > Synthesizing fully immersive realtime 3d environments > for each viewer will be required, then. With current CPU you'd be hard > pressed to render immersive audio (not even with physical modelling) aspect > of that. This doesn't require more than 1000 DSP MIPs, and is old hat. The problem with immersive audio is that it interacts with the environment it is played into when run through transducers, usually very poorly. With headphones, excellent immersive audio isn't a problem with current processors. Out of speakers, no amount of crunch will make up for the fact that the gorgeously rendered audio environment is being filtered through (and trashed by) a wildly unpredictable real environment. But yeah, it isn't like there aren't gobs of applications that run far slower than they probably should and many that just plain require more crunch, though I would attribute a lot of that to basic architectural issues. j. andrew rogers From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 1 18:02:44 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:02:44 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead References: Message-ID: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> Brian Lee > Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body > or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect > the girl's allergies. Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? Somebody (a physicist) suggested: why not the aerogel wafer? Big enough to be seen but so light weight that delivery from a priest to cummunionist has to be done with the upmost delicacy. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 1 18:34:36 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:34:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> References: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901132625.01a9bc98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:02 PM 9/1/2004 +0200, Serafino wrote: >Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov >the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? Jesus is *now* made of gluten, but only at the level of *appearances* (if I remember my Aquinas correctly). The *substance* is flesh, but the *accidents* remain bready. (Thank you, Aristotle. You can go back to counting your wife's teeth now.) The obvious theological solution is to allow her a sip of the wine=blood. (This is deemed equally efficacious on the god-embodiment meter.) Maybe that's against the law for kids? But this solution misses the *sociological* reality, which is that the child is being isolated and stigmatized (so to speak) in front of her classmates, on the basis of a totally delusional and in fact insane proposition. But then that's the nature of most social bonding/excluding identifiers, although few are as comprehensively crazy and disgusting as this one. Damien Broderick From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 1 20:28:07 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 15:28:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining three shuttles? Message-ID: With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. Would this necessarily be a bad thing? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 1 20:18:30 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining three shuttles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040901201830.72287.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), > one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if > the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by > hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? The answer to that is the inverse of whether you think continuing the Shuttle program is a good thing. But what's likely is that the area will suffer repairable damage, which repairs will come out of other NASA operations, and possibly lead to a permanent increase in Shuttle operation costs (due to the "need" to guard against hurricane operations even at White Sands, or even well outside of hurricane season). Any suggestion of mobile, quicker operations that could use the Shuttles as vehicles to move themselves and some cargo well out of the hurricane's path (which is what you'd do with any high-value airplane) will be quickly dismissed by the same administrators who wonder why it's so difficult to get an extra billion dollars to fund this "necessary" repair work. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 20:31:47 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 13:31:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901132625.01a9bc98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040901203147.42500.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> > But this solution > misses the > *sociological* reality, which is that the child is > being isolated and > stigmatized (so to speak) in front of her > classmates, on the basis of a > totally delusional and in fact insane proposition. If she were really being stigmatized wouldn't that make the Catholic Church cannonize her to sainthood? Then she could eat anything she wanted for communion. :) More seriously I agree. It's really strange but the more ancient any such social bonding ritual is, it seems more attention is paid to be getting it exactly right. Whatever that means. I also wonder if it is why the Spaniards outlawed the cultivation of amaranth by the Aztecs - a native American grain used similarly to wheat. Interestingly, amaranth was used by the Aztecs in THEIR holy rituals before they got bludgeoned into catholocism. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 1 20:35:41 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 16:35:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh Message-ID: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> From: Damien At 08:02 PM 9/1/2004 +0200, Damien, famed science fiction author, wrote: (Thank you, Aristotle. You can go back to counting your wife's teeth now.) Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain only to discover that yes, indeed her brain weighed less, thus she was less intelligent than the heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his colleagues. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Sep 1 20:54:02 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:54:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? References: <20040901201830.72287.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <413636EA.B32A737F@mindspring.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), > > one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if > > the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by > > hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. > > > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > The answer to that is the inverse of whether you think > continuing the Shuttle program is a good thing. But > what's likely is that the area will suffer repairable > damage, which repairs will come out of other NASA > operations, and possibly lead to a permanent increase > in Shuttle operation costs (due to the "need" to guard > against hurricane operations even at White Sands, or > even well outside of hurricane season). Any > suggestion of mobile, quicker operations that could > use the Shuttles as vehicles to move themselves and > some cargo well out of the hurricane's path (which is > what you'd do with any high-value airplane) will be > quickly dismissed by the same administrators who > wonder why it's so difficult to get an extra billion > dollars to fund this "necessary" repair work. You mention "guard against hurricane operations even at White Sands." Well, Pacific Ocean hurricanes do hit Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas although these are downgraded to tropical storms or less before they hit. For example, Hurricane/Tropical Storm Lester came through Arizona (Cochise and Santa Cruz counties) the same week Hurricane Andrews hit Florida in 1992. We had 50-60 mph winds tearing down carports, trees, and ripping off a few roofs. Fortunately, almost all of our power and telephone lines are buried here in Sierra Vista, Arizona. BTW, the 12,000 foot runway at Libby Army Air Field on Fort Huachuca is an alternate emergency landing strip for Shuttles unable to land at White Sands Missile Range. Terry -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 1 21:11:09 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:11:09 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh References: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20040901132625.01a9bc98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002701c49068$34873050$78c61b97@administxl09yj> Damien > Jesus is *now* made of gluten, > but only at the level of *appearances*. Ahhh, so it is epiontic (*). (CERN jokes) Church has come up with a new, low carb wafer, that also has no fat, an fewer calories. Fine, and how do they call it? "I Can't Believe It". Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope traveling backwards in time? On the contrary it's the Pope who is traveling backwards in time. That's right, the sign on his hat is that of the positive electric charge. And if CERN could induce Pope and Anti-Pope to encounter each other head-on at .99c ? They would cancel each other and yield a power vacuum! (*) after Wojciech H. Zurek, 'Quantum Darwinism' papers http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0308163 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0408125 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0408147 From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 1 21:10:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 16:10:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> References: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901160823.01ad2388@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:35 PM 9/1/2004 -0400, Natasha wrote: >Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain No. Well, he weighted it with some of his memes, but they're not very heavy. >only to discover that yes, indeed >her brain weighed less, thus she was less intelligent than the >heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his colleagues. Aristotle was of the opinion that brains serve to cool the blood, so he would not have been able to make such a connection anyway. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 21:35:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <002701c49068$34873050$78c61b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20040901213555.32851.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > > Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope traveling backwards > in time? On the contrary it's the Pope who is traveling > backwards in time. That's right, the sign on his hat is > that of the positive electric charge. And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? > > And if CERN could induce Pope and Anti-Pope to encounter > each other head-on at .99c ? They would cancel each other > and yield a power vacuum! What a positively Mechanicheanistic philosophy. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 21:48:28 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:48:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <95410-22004931203541996@M2W028.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040901214828.88331.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com> > Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain only to > discover that yes, indeed > her brain weighed less, thus she was less > intelligent than the > heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his > colleagues. So how did Aristotle manage to weigh his own brain to compare it to his wife's? ;) That is a pretty impressive trick if you ask me. And I thought Archimedes was impressive with his bathtub/crown trick. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 1 21:54:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 14:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <20040901214828.88331.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040901215410.35331.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > > Didn't Aristotle weight his wife's brain only to > > discover that yes, indeed > > her brain weighed less, thus she was less > > intelligent than the > > heavy-weighted brains of her husband and his > > colleagues. > > So how did Aristotle manage to weigh his own brain to > compare it to his wife's? ;) That is a pretty > impressive trick if you ask me. And I thought > Archimedes was impressive with his bathtub/crown > trick. I always was impressed with how Pythagoras' enemies, those dratted statisticioi bean counters, managed to kill him in the place he despised the most: the middle of a bean field. That would be like killing Bush I with a broccoli bomb.... is there sufficient iron in that vegetable for it to be considered shrapnel? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:32:05 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:32:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <0d8d01c4904d$e21205d0$27b61b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <04a401c4909d$6b9f6550$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > scerir > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead > > > Brian Lee > > > Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body > > or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect > > the girl's allergies. > > Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov > the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? No, this is going off on the wrong track, theologically. The girl was born with the tendency toward this wheat allergy, so clearly, god gave it to her. Since this innate condition precludes her from taking a proper communion, one must conclude that god wanted her immortal soul to be lost. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:37:48 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:37:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to take a direct hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no doubt that it will perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Freels Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining three shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. Would this necessarily be a bad thing? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:48:54 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:48:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901160823.01ad2388@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <04aa01c4909f$c48ef700$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Damien Broderick ... > > Aristotle was of the opinion that brains serve to cool the > blood... Damien Broderick Well, brains would serve that function, would they not? (Among other delightful functions of course.) I pride myself that my normal body temperature is nearly 2 degrees F below the commonly accepted average for humans. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 03:51:42 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 20:51:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <20040901213555.32851.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04ab01c490a0$28e63880$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh > > --- scerir: > > > > Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope ... the sign on his hat is > > that of the positive electric charge. > > And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? I think you just mitre be right about that. spike {8^D From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 04:04:34 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 13:34:34 +0930 Subject: 4. Re: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as In-Reply-To: <4135D12A.5050600@mail.tele.dk> References: <20040901120939.86465.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <4135D12A.5050600@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <710b78fc040901210443c7f828@mail.gmail.com> > If the US want to stop terror, they should stop supporting terror and > suppressive rules. > > regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark > Yes. Good post Max! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sjvans at ameritech.net Thu Sep 2 04:26:30 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:26:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1094099189.1062.24.camel@Renfield> Nasawatch claims otherwise: "KSC's elevation is approximately nine feet, so we are concerned about both wind damage and water intrusion in the event of a storm surge. The Orbiter Processing Facility is constructed of concrete and steel and was designed to withstand winds of 105 mph. The Vehicle Assembly Building is constructed of concrete and steel and was designed to withstand winds of 125 mph. Other payload and flight hardware support facilities can endure winds of 110 mph. Launch pads and the Payload Hazardous Servicing Facility can withstand 125-mph winds." http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/000121.html 125 mph is *not* Cat 5, but Cat 3. Cat 5 is over 155 mph (or 135 knots). I believe the orbiters are in the Processing Facility. On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 22:37, Spike wrote: > The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to take a > direct > hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no > doubt that it will > perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Kevin Freels > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > remaining threeshuttles? > > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to > wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining three > shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their > hangers. > > > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 04:35:30 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:35:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <1094099189.1062.24.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <04d101c490a6$4d026530$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Stephen J. Van Sickle > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 9:27 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > Nasawatch claims otherwise: > > "KSC's elevation is approximately nine feet, so we are concerned about > both wind damage and water intrusion in the event of a storm > surge. The Orbiter Processing Facility is constructed of concrete and > steel and was designed to withstand winds of 105 mph... > > http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/000121.html > > 125 mph is *not* Cat 5, but Cat 3. Cat 5 is over 155 mph (or 135 > knots). I believe the orbiters are in the Processing Facility. One reason Cape Canaveral is so attractive as a launch facility is that there is a large continental shelf that extends way east from shore, so that if a cat 5 comes in there, it loses some of its punch before it makes landfall. So goes the story. Guess we shall see this weekend eh? {8-] I can see where a storm surge would cause some major consternation however. spike From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 04:43:22 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:43:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9E7270C6-FC9A-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 24, 2004, at 9:31 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > >> On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 01:53, Samantha Atkins wrote: >> >>> I have mentioned a few already. Beyond that I don't think an >> honest >>> look can fail to supply you with as many examples as you have the >>> stomach for. >> >> That's a cop out. You made the claim, now refuse to back it up. >> Just a few words would do. > > Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take 100,000 > lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. I am not going to get drawn into such a game when I have been shown in most respects to be eloquently right about the entire Iraq adventure being utterly unnecessary, reprehensible and very costly in multiple aspects. How many ultimately die by whose count by the time it is finally over (it certainly isn't yet) is relatively small potatoes in the full context of the debacle. > >> >> I wouldn't be terribly surprised if there were some, which is why I >> wanted examples. I can find "oppressive" actions, but that is the >> nature of both government and war. Shooting someone is a pretty >> oppressive act. I don't think we are doing away with either >> government or war in the near future. > > Government being oppressive is a very rational behavior. Being rational > does not mean being ethical, moral, good, right, or honorable. > > A war we had no business going to and that we were lied to completely on. Being rational has a tremendous amount to do with acting honorably. Those without honor are treated and held very badly. If the dishonorable have vastly more arms or money this may be somewhat masked for a time. But rational people would find that tremendously counterproductive and contrary to what they hold dear. On examples, I have much, much better things to do than go dig up examples for folks who if they are honest, and interested, can easily find all the examples they want. I refuse to go through the useless rounds of denial of validity of facts or sources, excuse making, arguments on various points of the form of the argument itself, comparisons to Vietnam, denunciations of those opposed to Vietnam and by extension whatever war we are in now, rationalization, new examples.. and off into numerous tangents along the way. I consider it a waste of valuable time and brainpower of a bunch of very bright people who inhabit this list. - samantha From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 2 04:49:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:49:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] zero point fields, Bernard Haisch and, gulp, more Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040901234618.01b6cd98@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Here's something kinda zany and hairballish but hot damn this is Bernard Haisch, not some total dumbo: http://www.ufoskeptic.org/ < ...the fact of the matter is, there does exist a vast amount of high quality, albeit enigmatic, data. UFO sightings are not limited to farmers in backward rural areas. There are astronomers and pilots and NASA engineers -- and others who have been around the block a few times when it comes to observing natural phenomena -- who have witnessed events for which there is no plausible conventional explanation. Recently astrophysicist Ken Olum at Tufts University argued (gr-qc/0303070) that anthropic reasoning applied to inflation theory predicts that we should find ourselves part of a large, galaxy-sized civilization, implying that the "We are alone" solution to Fermi's paradox is inconsistent with our best current theory of cosmology. Beatriz Gato-Rivera, a physicist at the Instituto de Matematicas y Fisica in Madrid, followed up on this (physics/0308078) with the hypothesis that Olum is correct, but that by design we would be kept unaware of a greatly advanced surrounding civilization. She also argues that modern superstring and M-brane theory further aggravate Fermi's "missing alien" problem. There is another aspect to the UFO phenomenon that involves politics and secrecy rather than observational evidence. I do not currently have a ticket to any SCI program, but over the years I have gotten to know individuals who for one reason or another would be aware of the existence of relevant black programs. From such sources, certain possibilities have made it through my credibility filter and now reside -- like Schroedinger's cat -- in kind of an unresolved mental superposition of quantum states having both the eigenvalues "true" and "false" and no operator around to collapse the wave function. My credibility filter is a function of several parameters such as my own knowledge of physical laws, state of technology and history of its origin, some personal experience with government agencies and security classification systems, but mostly the filter is tuned to the questions: Which people have I learned over the years to be trustworthy, sensible and knowledgeable? How would they be in a position to know the things they do? Why and to what extent would they tell me anything, even based on long-time friendship? Do they have anything to gain by telling stories or making claims? What consistency and convergence is there among various people's claimed information? I see myself a bit like the kid standing next to the kid looking through the hole in the big tall fence at the baseball game. This means that the closest I am getting to inside information will be a recounting of what is going on in there. I myself am definitely not an insider, but contacts I have acquired and/or befriended over a long period of time seem to be on the periphery of some kind of inside which appears to contain at least remarkable information, and apparently more than that. Let me be (somewhat) more specific. I now have three completely independent examples of individuals whom I trust reporting to me that individuals they trust have admitted to handling alien materials in "our" possession in the course of secret official duties. (The special access level in the one case for which I know it is R, a not widely known SCI level whose existence was finally verified for me by someone who himself had a very high access level, though short of that one, as being "reserved for someone at the very top." I do not know, however, whether it is specifically reserved or designated for this topic.) And in yet two mores cases, I am similarly one (trustworthy) step removed from a former head of a federal government agency who was involved with a special access program reporting decades-long extraterrestrial reverse engineering efforts and a head of state of a G8 country who also said he had been officially briefed on that program. Now the Air Force Project Blue Book of the 1950s and 1960s did have both a public and a classified side. I suspect that after the public half of Blue Book closed up shop following the Condon Report, its classified half may have continued, existing today as a black special access program (see below). Could such things possibly be true? While I am intrigued by what I have learned over the years, I can't be absolutely certain. > and so on. Damien Broderick From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 04:50:31 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 21:50:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <1093366340.1036.57.camel@Renfield> References: <20040824163135.69730.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <1093366340.1036.57.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <9E4587A0-FC9B-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 24, 2004, at 9:52 AM, Stephen J. Van Sickle wrote: > On Tue, 2004-08-24 at 11:31, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take >> 100,000 >> lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. > > To be fair, that was not an unreasonable prediction, had Hussein used > chemical weapons and deliberately targeted his own people in an attempt > to scare off the Americans, a scenario I don't find altogether > improbable. A variation of the Blazing Saddles strategy. > Funny thing about that. At the time we sent in a military group to check out the scene. They came back with a report that the symptoms shown by the victims were actually consistent with the kind of gas, different from that used by Iraq, that was in use by Iran. The official story in those days when we were behind Saddam and his war with Iran, was that he *did not* gas his own people. I don't know if he did or didn't. But I do know that we can't assert it is so without some caveats. > A sound argument against the war before it started. > >> Government being oppressive is a very rational behavior. Being >> rational >> does not mean being ethical, moral, good, right, or honorable. > > Exactly. There are many good arguments other than "irrational". > Instead, I just hear "Bush is dumb", "it's the oil", "conspiracy", etc. > Why doesn't the opposition get to the meat of the issue? > > _______________________________________________ > What exactly are you referring to? And do you always refer to those who disagree with you as "the opposition"? - samantha From matus at matus1976.com Thu Sep 2 05:09:12 2004 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 01:09:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense In-Reply-To: <9E4587A0-FC9B-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <000a01c490aa$ff50c520$6601a8c0@GREYBOOK> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > > >> Don't worry, she had claimed that the Iraqi invasion would take > >> 100,000 > >> lives. The occupation hasn't even taken a tenth of that. > > > > To be fair, that was not an unreasonable prediction, had Hussein used > > chemical weapons and deliberately targeted his own people in an attempt > > to scare off the Americans, a scenario I don't find altogether > > improbable. A variation of the Blazing Saddles strategy. > > > > Funny thing about that. At the time we sent in a military group to > check out the scene. They came back with a report that the symptoms > shown by the victims were actually consistent with the kind of gas, > different from that used by Iraq, that was in use by Iran. The > official story in those days when we were behind Saddam and his war > with Iran, was that he *did not* gas his own people. I don't know if > he did or didn't. But I do know that we can't assert it is so without > some caveats. > Its not funny, some googling reveals what is a reasonable description of what happened. I did some digging the last time this claim was made and posted this to the list. I had saved it since I knew it would come up again. In summary, the MTV News Byte Claim that "Saddam Gassed his own people" is clearly still true. There is some question about whether Halabja was only an attack by Saddam which intentionally targeting Kurdish civilians, with Pelletiers seeming to be one of the few people that still believe this in an apparent sea of overwhelming evidence, as suggested in the letters above. But given Saddam's systematic effort to wipe out Kurds in perhaps 180 other chemical attacks that were in no way involved with the Iran Iraq war, and not even questioned by Pelletier, the trumpeting of this particular article of Pelletiers as a anti-war trophy is clearly an egregiously incorrect interpretation of the facts. http://www.matus1976.com/politics/saddam_gas_1.htm To start with, the pretty liberal French Le Monde Diplomatique (http://mondediplo.com/1998/03/04iraqkn) relays the theory that Saddam was responsible for the attacks, outlining a history by Hussain, and in particular Hassan Al Majid's efforts to eradicate the Kurds. "Hassan Al Majid's chemical experiments began on 15 April. They were directed against thirty or so villages in the provinces of Suleimaniyeh and Erbil and proved devastatingly effective. Hundreds died. On 17 April, after a chemical attack that killed 400 people in the Balisan valley, 286 wounded survivors set out for Erbil in search of medical attention. They were stopped by the army and shot." This particular article tells the story of a systematic campaign of attacks and the use of chemical weapons against the Kurds, with the incident at Halabja being the height of the atrocities. Note the west, including the US, France, and Germany did little about this at the time. Next I would point you to this article published in the Kurdistan Observer (http://home.cogeco.ca/~kurdistanobserver/2-7-02-88-gassing-still-killin g.html) It is made clear in this article that the Kurds are no fan of the US, as the chemical weapons used were supplied by the US, the original event was ignored by the US (note is was also ignored by France and Germany) and now the US is using it as a rallying call against Saddam. This particular article estimates ~7,000 died instantly in the attack on Halajba, and relays that Human Rights Watch estimates that 500,000 to 100,000 people died during the Anfal campaign. Next I would point you to this page (http://www.dbarkertv.com/pelletiere.htm) which details responses sent to the New York Times editorial section after Pelletiere advertisement for his book, er, I mean, editorial was published. The first response is from the former United States Ambassador to Croatio, it reads: "In 1988, as a staff member working for the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, I documented Iraqi chemical weapons attacks on 49 Kurdish villages in Dihok Province along Iraq's border with Turkey. These attacks began on Aug. 25, 1988, five days after the Iran-Iraq war ended, and were specifically targeted on civilians. As a result of the committee's report, the Senate unanimously approved comprehensive sanctions on Iraq. Between March 1987 and August 1988, Iraq made extensive use of chemical weapons against Kurdish villages as part of a campaign aimed at depopulating rural Kurdistan. These attacks have been well documented by human rights groups, forensic investigators and the Kurds themselves. Many occurred in places far from the front line in the Iran-Iraq war. The Kurdish survivors of the Halabja attack all blame Iraq, and many report seeing Iraqi markings on the low-flying aircraft that delivered the lethal gas. While the most deadly, the Halabja attack was one of between 60 and 180 such attacks that took thousands of civilian lives." [Emphasis added] The next response came from the executive director of Human Rights Watch Kenneth Roth. it reads: "Stephen C. Pelletiere writes that Iran, not Iraq, might have been responsible for the 1988 gassing of Kurdish civilians in Halabja. Human Rights Watch researchers interviewed survivors from Halabja and reviewed 18 tons of Iraqi state documents to establish beyond doubt that the attack was carried out by Iraq. Iraqi forces used mustard and nerve gases, as well as mass executions, to kill some 100,000 Kurds in the genocidal 1988 Anfal campaign. The commander, Gen. Ali Hassan al-Majid, said of the Kurds, in a taped speech obtained by Human Rights Watch: "I will kill them all with chemical weapons! Who is going to say anything? The international community?" The evidence is incontrovertible: Iraq is responsible for the crime of genocide, committed against its own Kurdish population. The gassing at Halabja was part of that crime" The very site you linked for Pelletieres article has this link as a comment (http://www.krg.org/reference/halabja/index.asp) These are the official statements by the Kurdish Regional Government on the incident at Halabja. It says: "What happened in Halabja? On March 16th 1988, Iraqi jets bombed the town of Halabja with chemical weapons. At least 5,000 people were killed and 7,000 severely injured. Fourteen years on, thousands are still suffering the affects of the chemical weapons" The Kurds, as I mentioned, seem to be no friend of the US, but are also highly critical of Saddam (understandable, given his Anfal campaign was a systematic effort to wipe them off the face of the Earth) For brevity, I would point you to only one more article. (http://slate.msn.com/id/2063934/) This particular article was written in response to Jude Wanniski's incorrect parroting of Pelletiers argument. It is made clear that Pelletier only questions the involvement of Iraq in Halajba in particular, note as mentioned before that more than a hundred other gas attacks by Iraqi's on Kurds also occurred, and even Pelletier does not question these. This article states: "Last year, Pelletiere published a book (*) that Wanniski seems to think argued that Iraq never gassed Iraqi citizens. But as one can plainly see by scrolling down to the portion of Wanniski's memo (*) that quotes Pelletiere at length, Pelletiere's claim is that in March 1988, both Iran and Iraq gassed the Kurdish city of Halabja, which they were fighting over. Pelletiere's view-which is not widely shared by others-is that the Iraqis used mustard gas, while the Iranians used a much deadlier cyanide-based gas, and that it was this cyanide gas that killed most or all of the thousands of Kurdish civilians who died at Halabja" And "Joost Hiltermann of Human Rights Watch is writing a book about Halabja and other incidents in which the Kurds were gassed. He says that he's seen no evidence that Iran used chemical warfare during the Iran-Iraq war and plenty of evidence that Iraq did. Much of the latter is available online. Here" Additionally "United Nations reports from 1986, 1987, and 1988 confirm (based in part on reports from Iraqi soldiers who had been taken prisoner) that Iraq used mustard gas and nerve agents in the Iran-Iraq war and that these killed a growing number of civilians. In 1993, Physicians for Human Rights found evidence (*) of nerve agents in soil samples in the Kurdish village of Birjinni and cited Kurdish eyewitnesses who said that one day in August 1988, they saw Iraqi warplanes drop bombs emitting "a plume of black, then yellowish smoke" and that shortly thereafter villagers "began to have trouble breathing, their eyes watered, their skin blistered, and many vomited-some of whom died. All of these symptoms are consistent with a poison gas attack." The March 24 New Yorker carries a lengthy account by Jeffrey Goldberg (*) of Iraq's systematic gassing of the Kurdish population, based on extensive eyewitness interviews that Goldberg recently conducted in Halabja and other Kurdish-controlled areas in Northern Iraq. None of those interviewed seem to doubt that it was Saddam Hussein's army that gassed them" (*) - links provided on source page Finally, for an additional commentary on the subject see - (http://squawk.ca/lbo-talk/0204/0355.html) In summary, the MTV News Byte Claim that "Saddam Gassed his own people" is clearly still true. There is some (very little) question about whether Halabja was only an attack by Saddam which intentionally targeting Kurdish civilians, with Pelletiers seeming to be one of the few people that still believe this in an apparent sea of overwhelming evidence, as suggested in the letters above. But given Saddam's systematic effort to wipe out Kurds in perhaps 180 other chemical attacks that were in no way involved with the Iran Iraq war, and not even questioned by Pelletier, the trumpeting of this particular article of Pelletiers as a anti-war trophy is clearly an egregiously incorrect interpretation of the facts. Regards, Michael Dickey From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 2 06:24:44 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea Message-ID: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> If I understand correctly, this guy was saying that transhumanism would, if embraced, be the most dangerous idea because it would necessarily lead to the most extreme "us vs. them" humanity has seen to date? I would say the most dangerous idea, if embraced, is that there needs to be an "us vs. them". Look what has happened when it has been embraced. Granted, it is sometimes inevitable, such as when you have different religious sects whose holiest beliefs require conversion or genocide of all non-believers. But looking to violence or other antagonism as always the first resort causes a lot of unneeded grief. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 2 06:43:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 16:13:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409012343491021fb@mail.gmail.com> He seems to posit that our liberal democracies are based on notions of equality, which in turn are based on physical world equality. He thinks that if we lose our physical equality, we will lose everything else dear to us. He calls this equality "human nature". Our counter argument, I guess, is to push the position that sentient rights (he equates human nature and human rights) are not based on physical equality of fleshy individuals, but on something more useful, for instance Peter Singer's concept of granting sentient rights to anything that can suffer (I'm not suggesting we adopt that measure, but we need something). Really, the idea that we need to be the same to be treated with equal consideration, and to treat each other with equal consideration, is a very poor basis for a system of ethics. For a start, it's never been true; we are all different, with different innate abilities, strengths & weaknesses. We can frame transhumanism as a celebration and elevation of humans as a set of diverse individuals, with a common point that we all need equal consideration of our interests. In this light, it's an ethical advance. I actually like Singer's metric of ability to suffer as the determinate of membership of the set Sentients, but it needs to be tempered with allowing for differing types of rights/responsibilities depending on the ability to think. How to do that would require careful analysis, but clearly for instance you can't give a dog equal consideration with a human in choosing elected representatives, any more than you can require that a dog would find a job and support itself in a capitalist society. You could give such rights and responsibilities to an uplifted dog, of course. I sense in Fukuyama's writing an unwillingness to imagine how a transhuman/posthuman culture could work, and so instead he chooses to write it off as obviously bad (eg: he says that Brave New World is basically what we are doomed to, yes really). I wonder whether it is because he feels he has a great intellectual investment in knowledge of the history of humanity, and that this would be rendered useless in a setting that cast aside the great axioms of history, like that humans are all essentially the same, regardless of colour, creed, etc etc. On Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > If I understand correctly, this guy was saying that > transhumanism would, if embraced, be the most > dangerous > idea because it would necessarily lead to the most > extreme "us vs. them" humanity has seen to date? > > I would say the most dangerous idea, if embraced, is > that there needs to be an "us vs. them". Look what > has happened when it has been embraced. Granted, it > is sometimes inevitable, such as when you have > different religious sects whose holiest beliefs > require conversion or genocide of all non-believers. > But looking to violence or other antagonism as > always the first resort causes a lot of unneeded > grief. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 2 06:54:17 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 23:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0409012343491021fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040902065417.58407.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > Really, the idea that we need to be the same to be > treated with equal > consideration, and to treat each other with equal > consideration, is a > very poor basis for a system of ethics. For a start, > it's never been > true; we are all different, with different innate > abilities, strengths > & weaknesses. This is probably the best counter-argument, if he is proposing "social equality requires physical equality". Indeed, social equality has largely been established *IN SPITE OF* physical differences. Introducing new physical differences - especially if their nature (affordability, et al) dictates that they be available to all, as is our aim - seems absurdly unlikely to introduce new social differences. > I > wonder whether it is > because he feels he has a great intellectual > investment in knowledge > of the history of humanity, and that this would be > rendered useless in > a setting that cast aside the great axioms of > history, like that > humans are all essentially the same, regardless of > colour, creed, etc > etc. Even a transhuman is still a sentient unit. One with vastly different properties, perhaps, but probably less alien (at least in the near term, which is all that "alien" reliably measures anyway) than certain members of all too human tribes and cults today. From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 09:19:47 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:19:47 -0700 Subject: Born lucky ? (was Re: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense) In-Reply-To: <004c01c48ef9$c1534fc0$362c2dcb@homepc> References: <20040830173526.10348.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <004c01c48ef9$c1534fc0$362c2dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <3C599D60-FCC1-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Aug 30, 2004, at 6:28 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > The General Assembly cannot (it doesn't have even the legal power > even under the UN Charter to) make a law that is legally binding on > the US unless the US agrees. > > The only way the General Assembly influences the US is politically > or 'morally' as a sort of body of world opinion. That is not of no > consequence, but it definitely would not be enough to deprive US > citizens of constitutional rights -including the right to bear arms if > US citizens actually have that now. > Not quite. If we are signatories to a treaty that we decide to take seriously (for once) that could be used for justification. You have it a little backwards I think. It is not that the UN would enforce such a thing on us. It is that we would perhaps (I don't think it is at all likely) sign a treat which we ourselves enforce in the US. > I say IF only because I googled on it and was surprised to find the > link below. > > http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/ > Second%20Amendment%20to%20the%20United%20States%20Constitution > >> People I know personally have represented the >> US in these negotiations. The US, under Clinton, had been totally >> willing to cave to the UN on this, but Bush is not, and specifically >> told the UN so. Kerry, on the other hand, is fully in support of the >> UN >> Convention on Small Arms, which would obligate US armed forces to >> search every American household for firearms to be confiscated... >> >> This is reason number one why I am steadfastly AGAINST Kerry. >> He would make the world safe for global fascism. > > I don't think private gun ownership would make any difference to state > fascism either way. Whatever weapons are readily available the state > (if it is an effective political organisation) is going to have more or > better > of them. > So you would prefer to be disarmed the rest of the way instead of largely disarmed? Really? > Fascist thugs don't need guns they just need superior brute force. If > the > citizens are not paying attention and are not willing to speak out > against > it then guns are irrelevant. You might as well plan to oppose political > thugs with lollipops if your are going to wait until they appear at > your > door and you do nothing to stop them beforehand. Guns are hardly irrelevant. Every dictatorship in history has first seized private arms. Look around you. We have a presidential race with the two "real" candidates both arguing how to divide the spoils of our lives and both intent on endless international intrigue and both saying nothing remotely coherent about the rights of the people or protecting civil liberties. What exactly will you say that will make a difference? We can push for an alternative candidate and party. But it is not at all clear if the system is remotely still honest enough to be changed from within. On the day the rest of it goes south I would rather be armed than not. > > Fists, boots and clubs were enough for the brownshirts in Germany. > Had they been widely opposed by guns then I've no doubt they'd > have been happy enough to use guns themselves but guns just > weren't necessary. > Boots and clubs would not have been enough if the citizens still had guns. At the time a large number of armed citizens willing and able to defend themselves would have been a very serious problem for Hitler's designs. Or do you think the disarming was only coincidence. > I think the only effective weapon against fascism within a state is a > citizenry alert enough and ready enough to speak out and counter > organise against any emerging or organising fascism. > > When the rest of your civil liberties are gone then where will you speak out safely? When your right of free association is severely curtailed how will you counter-organize? When you and your group get brand terrorists or supporters of terrorist or enemy combatants or simply are hauled away on no declared charges indefinitely - all of which the US now has the means on the books or proposed to do - then what does your talk about speaking up really mean if you have no power but your words? Now we can speak. Let us by all means take maximum advantage of it. But let us not forego every free citizens rightful insurance to do so. - s From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 09:41:08 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:41:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <20040901203147.42500.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040901203147.42500.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <37F09F20-FCC4-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 1, 2004, at 1:31 PM, The Avantguardian wrote: > >> But this solution >> misses the >> *sociological* reality, which is that the child is >> being isolated and >> stigmatized (so to speak) in front of her >> classmates, on the basis of a >> totally delusional and in fact insane proposition. > > If she were really being stigmatized wouldn't that > make the Catholic Church cannonize her to sainthood? > Then she could eat anything she wanted for communion. > :) > I really did miss the part that said it had to be wheat. Unleavened maybe, but wheat? And of course the whole ritual was a twist binding up hard-won dogma a few centuries after the purported events and co-opting the shared meal new converts used to participate in as a rite of passage back in the day when Christian groups practiced real poverty and primitive communism. -s From samantha at objectent.com Thu Sep 2 09:49:26 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 02:49:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040902062444.78228.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <60687A41-FCC5-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Us vs Them develops when there are such difference between the groups that there is little mutual understanding and when there are conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is when one or both groups sees the other as a threat that must be eliminated. In transhumanist terms those without various levels of augmentation/life extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will consider those who do have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats UNLESS the technology is either available to all or seen as seriously improving everyone's lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. Just saying we won't have US vs Them because we will not think in such terms does not make it so. - s On Sep 1, 2004, at 11:24 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > If I understand correctly, this guy was saying that > transhumanism would, if embraced, be the most > dangerous > idea because it would necessarily lead to the most > extreme "us vs. them" humanity has seen to date? > > I would say the most dangerous idea, if embraced, is > that there needs to be an "us vs. them". Look what > has happened when it has been embraced. Granted, it > is sometimes inevitable, such as when you have > different religious sects whose holiest beliefs > require conversion or genocide of all non-believers. > But looking to violence or other antagonism as > always the first resort causes a lot of unneeded > grief. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:29:56 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:29:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead In-Reply-To: <04a401c4909d$6b9f6550$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902132956.54342.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > scerir > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] the extropy list isn't actually dead > > > > > > Brian Lee > > > > > Since the wafer is transformed into Christ's body > > > or whatever, it's no longer wheat and should not affect > > > the girl's allergies. > > > > Since the girl got the allergy, from a purely logical pov > > the question seems to be ... was Jesus made of gluten? > > No, this is going off on the wrong track, theologically. > The girl was born with the tendency toward this wheat > allergy, so clearly, god gave it to her. Since this innate > condition precludes her from taking a proper communion, > one must conclude that god wanted her immortal soul to > be lost. Or, that Satan cursed her with the allergy so that she could never know God. Does she get 666 mumps as an allergic reaction to the wheat wafer? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:30:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <04a501c4909e$396ace70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902133055.55249.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> But can it store all three shuttles? --- Spike wrote: > The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to take > a > direct > hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no > doubt > that it will > perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin > Freels > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining > threeshuttles? > > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has to wonder > what damage, or good would come if the remaining three shuttles were > destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in their hangers. > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:34:17 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh In-Reply-To: <04ab01c490a0$28e63880$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902133417.34330.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh > > > > --- scerir: > > > > > > Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope ... the sign on his hat is > > > that of the positive electric charge. > > > > And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? > > > I think you just mitre be right about that. Thanks. Of course, when the pope and anti-pope collide and cancel each other out, you call that a Chatechlysm ..... doh! ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 13:36:48 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 06:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining threeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <1094099189.1062.24.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <20040902133648.34780.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> It appears that the hurricane is going a bit south. My company's HQ in West Palm Beach is being evacuated, as is the town. All calls rerouted to my office here in NH. I'll be busy today, thanks... --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > Nasawatch claims otherwise: > > "KSC's elevation is approximately nine feet, so we are concerned > about > both wind damage and water intrusion in the event of a storm surge. > The > Orbiter Processing Facility is constructed of concrete and steel and > was > designed to withstand winds of 105 mph. The Vehicle Assembly Building > is > constructed of concrete and steel and was designed to withstand winds > of > 125 mph. Other payload and flight hardware support facilities can > endure > winds of 110 mph. Launch pads and the Payload Hazardous Servicing > Facility can withstand 125-mph winds." > > http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/000121.html > > 125 mph is *not* Cat 5, but Cat 3. Cat 5 is over 155 mph (or 135 > knots). I believe the orbiters are in the Processing Facility. > > > On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 22:37, Spike wrote: > > The Vehicle Assembly Building at Cape Canaveral was designed to > take a > > direct > > hit from a cat 5. Having seen it up close and personal, I have no > > doubt that it will > > perform as specified, with a margin of safety. spike > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf > Of > > Kevin Freels > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 1:28 PM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remaining threeshuttles? > > > > > > With KSC preparing for Frances' arrival > > (http://spaceflightnow.com/hurricane/status.html), one has > to > > wonder what damage, or good would come if the remaining > three > > shuttles were destroyed by hurricane or tornado while in > their > > hangers. > > > > > > > > Would this necessarily be a bad thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 2 15:13:06 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:13:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <20040902133055.55249.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta go down there and see it. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Mike Lorrey > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > From scerir at libero.it Thu Sep 2 15:43:12 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:43:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] eating god flesh References: <20040902133417.34330.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0d2601c49103$8e73ce20$3cc71b97@administxl09yj> - Is an anti-Pope merely a Pope ... the sign on his hat is that of the positive electric charge. - And the curve of the hat follows an asymptotic curve, does it not? - I think you just mitre be right about that. - Thanks. Of course, when the pope and anti-pope collide and cancel each other out, you call that a Chatechlysm ..... doh! What about the Christ anti-Christ collision? Would this perturb the vacuum state itself, scattering Popes and anti-Popes, red-shifting cardinals, decohering massive bishops, and annihilating altar boys? Would this induce the universe into a violent phase transition to some other, different configuration? From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 16:06:11 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:06:11 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanowater Conference to Addresses World's Water Supply Message-ID: <297600-2200494216611215@M2W029.mail2web.com> NanoWater Date: Monday, September 27, 2004 Location: RAI Congress Center, Amsterdam, The Netherlands The aim of the NanoWater conference is to examine how nanotechnology can help address the issues facing the world's water supplies. According to Unesco, although 70 percent of the world's surface is covered by water, only a fraction of that - 2.5 percent - is freshwater, of which 70 per cent is frozen in ice caps. The remainder is present as soil moisture. This leaves less than one per cent of the world's freshwater resources accessible for human use. Nanotechnology, while providing only a few radical new technologies for desalination, purification or waste water recovery, does have the ability to tilt the economic balance of many existing water related technologies in favour of large scale use. NanoWater will provide insight on those nanotechnologies and how they can be leveraged into the Water Industry to make them not only economically feasible but desirable. Speakers at NanoWater are: Kevin M. McGovern, Chairman and CEO of McGovern Capital LLC, Tim Harper, CEO, Cientifica, Executive Director, European NanoBusiness Association, Uri Sagman, Executive Director, Canadian NanoBusiness Alliance, Founder & Director, C Sixty Inc., David E. Reisner, President & CEO, The Nano Group, Inc., President & CEO, Inframat Corp., President & CEO, US Nanocorp, Inc., Fred Tepper, President, Argonide, Dr. Ir. Jeroen Boom, Project Design and Build Manager for Membrane Filtration, Veolia Water, Dr. Eric Mayes, CEO, NanoMagnetics Ltd., Dr. Philippe Rychen, Head of Environmental Systems, Centre Suisse d'Electronique et de Microtechnique (CSEM SA) and Diederik Jaspers, Senior Consultant, Altran Technologies Netherlands BV., Dr. Bob Carr, Chief Technology Officer, NanoSight http://www.clubofamsterdam.com/press.asp?contentid=267&catid=85 Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 2 16:36:20 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040902163620.49400.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> I wish I had had the spare time when I was in Palm Beach, but I saw the beach once and one evening in a bar, and the rest was all offices and hotel rooms. I'll likely be going back down in the winter for a real vacation, though, so I'll have a chance to see KSC finally. How big does it compare to the Lazy B Ranch's Everett, WA facility? --- Spike wrote: > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > go down there and see it. spike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > Mike Lorrey > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Sep 2 17:09:34 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 12:09:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? References: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: The VAB is HUGE! It must be since they rolled Saturn Vs out the door. Last I heard, it was in total disrepair and falling apart. Many of the fuel lines needed replaced, the electric was all seriously outdated, and there were nets in place to catch crap falling from the ceiling to keep it from damaging the orbiters. I was at Kennedy about 3 years ago and took the tour that brough you right by the VAB, but not in it. Do you or anyone else know if this has been corrected? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 10:13 AM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > go down there and see it. spike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > Mike Lorrey > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Sep 2 19:16:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:16:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? References: <20040902163620.49400.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Never been to Everett. KSC is a nice setup, but as with most facilities like this one, it is geared to the uninformed. If you knew nothing of the space program and/or basic physics and technology, it would be very educational. It's a wonderful place for the kids and the Space Shop is excellent. If you like visiting just for the experience of seeing some neat memorabilia and actual pieces of the history of the space program, it can be a great thing. They have everything from a V-2 to a Saturn V there. You can stand right in front of those huge engines and get an idea of what they went through to develop them. It can be awe inspiring. If you are wanting to see examples of high technology or to actually learn something though, you are better off visiting the NASA website. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 11:36 AM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? > I wish I had had the spare time when I was in Palm Beach, but I saw the > beach once and one evening in a bar, and the rest was all offices and > hotel rooms. I'll likely be going back down in the winter for a real > vacation, though, so I'll have a chance to see KSC finally. > > How big does it compare to the Lazy B Ranch's Everett, WA facility? > > --- Spike wrote: > > > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > > go down there and see it. spike > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > > To: ExI chat list > > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. > http://messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 2 18:59:31 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:59:31 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Women and Voting - A bit of History Message-ID: <81310-22004942185931508@M2W070.mail2web.com> A short history lesson on the "privilege" of voting ? "The women were innocent and defenseless. And by the end of the night, they were barely alive. Forty prison guards wielding clubs and their warden's blessing went on a rampage against the 33 women wrongly convicted of "obstructing sidewalk traffic." They beat Lucy Burn, chained her hands to the cell bars above her head and left her hanging for the night, bleeding and gasping for air. They hurled Dora Lewis into a dark cell, smashed her head against an iron bed and knocked her out cold. Her cell mate, Alice Cosu, thought Lewis was dead and suffered a heart attack. Additional affidavits describe the guards grabbing, dragging, beating, choking, slamming, pinching, twisting and kicking the women. Thus unfolded the "Night of Terror" on Nov. 15, 1917, when the warden at the Occoquan Workhouse in Virginia ordered his guards to teach a lesson to the suffragists! imprisoned there because they dared to picket Woodrow Wilson's White House for the right to vote. For weeks, the women's only water came from an open pail. Their food--all of it colorless slop--was infested with worms. When one of the leaders, Alice Paul, embarked on a hunger strike, they tied her to a chair, forced a tube down her throat and poured liquid into her until she vomited. She was tortured like this for weeks until word was smuggled out to the press. So, refresh my memory. Some women won't vote this year because--why, exactly? We have car-pool duties? We have to get to work? Our vote doesn't matter? It's raining? Last week, I went to a sparsely attended screening of HBO's new movie "Iron Jawed Angels." It is a graphic depiction of the battle these women waged so that I could pull the curtain at the polling booth and have my say. I am ashamed to say I needed the reminder. All these years later, voter registration is still my passion. But the actual act of voting had become less personal for me, more rote. Frankly, voting often felt more like an obligation than a privilege. Sometimes it was inconvenient. My friend Wendy, who is my age and studied women's history, saw the HBO movie, too. When she stopped by my desk to talk about it, she looked angry. She was--with herself. "One thought kept coming back to me as I watched that movie," she said. "What would those women think of the way I use--or don't use-my right to vote? All of us take it for granted now, not just younger women, but those of us who did seek to learn." The right to vote, she said, had become valuable to her "all over again." HBO will run the movie periodically before releasing it on video and DVD. I wish all history, social studies, and government teachers would include the movie in their curriculum. I want it shown on Bunko night, too, and anywhere else women gather. I realize this isn't our usual idea of socializing, but we are not voting in the numbers that we should be, and I think a little shock therapy is in order. It is jarring to watch Woodrow Wilson and his cronies try to persuade a psychiatrist to declare Alice Paul insane so that she could be permanently institutionalized. And it is inspiring to watch the doctor refuse. Alice Paul was strong, he said, and brave. That didn't make her crazy. The doctor admonished the men: "Courage in women is often mistaken for insanity." Please pass this on to all the women you know. We need to get out and vote and use this right that was fought so hard for by these very courageous women." (anonymous) Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From amara at amara.com Thu Sep 2 20:03:09 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 21:03:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Amara's Wavelet Pages Turns Nine Years Old Message-ID: Dear Folks, In the last days I made a large maintenance of my wavelet pages. I have finally an Internet connection in my home this week after almost two years in Italy, so I could finish such a task without my real job being impacted. This summer marks nine years of these pages. I needed to stop and reflect on that, as well, so I wrote some paragraphs, seen below. At my web site you'll see a pic of a sign to the "Lake of wavelets" that I found by accident when I was bicycling around Pantelleria last summer too. Ciao ... Amara Amara's Wavelet Page http://www.amara.com/current/wavelet.html Contents Wavelet Overview My Tutorial http://www.amara.com/IEEEwave/IEEEwavelet.html Wavelet Forum Wavelet Digest Fourier Trivia Sound Fun IDR Center NuHAG Gabor Server Discovering Wavelets Software Beginners Bibliography WWW Introductions WWW Sites Meta-Sites Research Institutions, Groups, and Programs Some Companies Individuals (Specialties) Some Demonstrations Correspondence Recent Modifications http://www.amara.com/current/wavemod.html Retrospective July 2004: Amara's Wavelet Page Turns Nine Years Old In July 1995, my wavelet pages were officially released. The page of links to books, papers, tutorials, software, research groups, and people emerged naturally from teaching myself about wavelets as I performed a wavelet software contract in 1994-1995. From the bottom-up, I learned wavelet algorithm details. From the top-down, I wrote a paper: "Introduction to Wavelets". The collection of the Internet resources I met as I performed these tasks emerged from the middle as "Amara's Wavelet Page". Amara's Wavelet Page then grew naturally as a site for beginners to learn about wavelets. My "Introduction to Wavelets" paper was my way of understanding with minimal math the main wavelet ideas. When the journal: IEEE Computational Sciences and Engineering published it in 1995, they gave me permission to place an HTML and postscript version of the paper at Amara's Wavelet Page. Since then, more people (>100,000) have downloaded the paper than many times the circulation number of journal. The Internet is really an incredible medium. On this anniversary, I cannot help but note that these pages were born several of my lifetimes ago. In my professional life, they endured the transition from scientific programmer to professional astronomer. The pages endured the initiation of the World Wide Web from starry expectations, through jaded disappointments into the WWW standard toaster-oven-appliance tool, now present in many people's homes. I rode along with these phase changes, at one point becoming so distressed from the Internet personalities that I encountered, that I wiped clean my web site and took a nap from the WWW for a few months. The phase changes of the WWW were not the only changes that my wavelet pages have endured. Adventures abound. In 1996, the Introduction to Wavelets paper was plagiarized by an engineering graduate student, whose lawyer attempted to convince IEEE, that Amara and his client, 'like Leibnitz and Newton with the invention of the calculus invented the paper at the same time' (he said). My wavelet pages have endured three country changes, a disabling repetitive strain injury, a large money debt, a divorce and later huge heartbreak, and an astrophysics PhD and postdoc experiences. Now lifetimes later, Amara the person, has emerged changed and better (she thinks) with the wavelet pages as a faint reflection. Sometimes others notice the niche that these wavelet pages serve. Since the later 1990s, digital signal processing online and print books and trade magazines have pointed their readers to my wavelet pages as a good introduction. A peak was reached in 2004, however, when the creme of the creme of the computer / technology magazines, c't, gave a link to my wavelet pages for their readers to learn more. I suppose I am somebody now, or, more likely, my name will be forever linked to the word "wavelet", no matter what Nobel Prizes I will receive in astrophysics ;-). I hope you've enjoyed my nine-year romp. Amara Graps My Introductory Seminars (A Post-script) If your hunger for beginner's wavelet information is not satiated, I sometimes give introductory wavelet seminars, now to hundreds of people over the years (see my resume for details). The duration of my seminars have ranged from thirty minutes to five hours. My audiences up to now have been astronomers, atmospheric scientists, seismologists, engineers, and computer scientists. My fees are negotiable and flexible; I've been known to give a seminar for the cost of a weekend attendance at Munich hackbrett festival, for example. Locations are similarly flexible; I've given them in computer scientist's homes (Ted Kaehler: to Alan Kay and his Squeak team) to distant Italian islands (Pantelleria). Please contact me if you are interested. -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 2 21:08:08 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 14:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <60687A41-FCC5-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Us vs Them develops when there are such difference > between the groups > that there is little mutual understanding and when > there are > conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is > when one or both > groups sees the other as a threat that must be > eliminated. *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that it need not always happen - like, say, by trying to develop mutual understanding or find ways to make the needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to destroying the other group. > In > transhumanist terms those without various levels of > augmentation/life > extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will > consider those who do > have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats > UNLESS the technology > is either available to all or seen as seriously > improving everyone's > lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. And aren't the enhancements we're trying to get developed aimed at improving the lives of those who have them? So, make sure that everyone can have them, and that their benefits are easily seen by everyone (which shouldn't be too hard, once there are real examples to point to), and there we go. From sentience at pobox.com Thu Sep 2 22:41:19 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:41:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org> References: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org> Message-ID: <4137A18F.3030505@pobox.com> Charlie Stross wrote: > > If you bolt all this together and articulate it, you find: > > * We are probably/we appear to be living close to a singularity > > * After this singularity, the boundary conditions of human existence > change radically > > * Ancestor simulation is one of these changes > > * We are probably living in an ancestor simulation > > * Our most recent memories are clearest because the technology used to > record them matured between our current time and the singularity; our > earlier memories are hazy and vague because they're largely interpolated > guesswork rather than accurate simulation > > Can someone please spot some holes in my reasoning before I go mad? I'm > not sure I enjoy living in a Philip K. Dick novel ... Well, the last item isn't correct because a noticeable differential between early and late memories resulting from a difference of recording technology would be a predictable flaw in the simulation, and an easily correctable one; have the inmates never notice the gaps in their memories. Also the same phenomenon is adequately explained by other theories of neurology. So there might be huge gaping gaps in your playback of Charlie Stross, but you would be forbidden to notice. Plus, that the above was posted to the Extropians mailing list implies that it is a known part of history, i.e., the original Stross posted it as well. For both reasons, then, the statement was a mistaken explanation of those phenomena considered by the mind of the person who originally typed it, even if the statement is true. As for the part about living in a Philip K. Dick novel: Generalization from fictional evidence, like assuming that if anyone ever does create human-machine hybrids they'll be like the Borg, an invention of scientifically illiterate Star Trek scriptwriters. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From sjvans at ameritech.net Thu Sep 2 23:49:55 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 18:49:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <050101c490ff$59646b30$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1094168994.2116.6.camel@Renfield> I read on a news report this morning (I can't remember where, but can find it if anyone is very interested) that SOP for hurricanes is to move the Orbiters into the VAB since it is rated higher (125 mph) than the Processing Facility (rated at 105 mph). However, all the orbiters are in pieces for upgrades and can't be moved, so they have closed up the payload bay doors, put up the landing gear, and will evacuate *everyone* (not even a skeleton crew). This one is mighty dangerous, and if KSC gets a direct hit, or even worse the storm passes just south, they will be in a world of hurt. If they are lucky, the buildings are over-built enough to stand, but nothing could stop the storm surge. On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 10:13, Spike wrote: > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > go down there and see it. spike > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > Mike Lorrey > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 00:24:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:24:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <1094168994.2116.6.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <20040903002400.12282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> It looks like it will likely make land fall between Ft Pierce and Melbourne as a cat 2, with winds of 110 mph. KSC will likely be spared these wind speeds given they are nearly an hour north of the projected landfall point. The storm surge should be horrendous, though, being north of the eye, and as it is going to drop from a cat 4 (135 mph) to a cat 2 between the edge of the continental shelf and landfall. That's a lot of energy to dump into the water. --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > > I read on a news report this morning (I can't remember where, but can > find it if anyone is very interested) that SOP for hurricanes is to > move > the Orbiters into the VAB since it is rated higher (125 mph) than the > Processing Facility (rated at 105 mph). However, all the orbiters > are > in pieces for upgrades and can't be moved, so they have closed up the > payload bay doors, put up the landing gear, and will evacuate > *everyone* > (not even a skeleton crew). This one is mighty dangerous, and if KSC > gets a direct hit, or even worse the storm passes just south, they > will > be in a world of hurt. If they are lucky, the buildings are > over-built > enough to stand, but nothing could stop the storm surge. > > > On Thu, 2004-09-02 at 10:13, Spike wrote: > > There are other facilities, but as for the VAB, I would > > think so. It is a helllll of a building. Mike ya aughta > > go down there and see it. spike > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > > > Mike Lorrey > > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 6:31 AM > > > To: ExI chat list > > > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the > > > remainingthreeshuttles? > > > > > > > > > But can it store all three shuttles? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 06:00:46 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:00:46 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien Message-ID: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. The report to be published in the science journal New Scientist states that the faint pulse, detected by the world's biggest single-dish telescope, the Arecibo radio telescope, in Puerto Rico originated from a planet located somewhere between the two constellations Pisces and Aries. Scientists have ruled out the possibility of the signal as interference from Earth, satellites or other cosmic sounds. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 06:12:20 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:12:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Zero Powers > > WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for > Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they > believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. ... > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 06:17:47 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:17:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy theremainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <20040902163620.49400.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <054201c4917d$befbf7a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey >...I'll likely be going back down in the winter for a real > vacation, though, so I'll have a chance to see KSC finally. > > How big does it compare to the Lazy B Ranch's Everett, WA facility? > Less floor area than the Booeing building, but I used to hear that the VAB had the largest enclosed volume of any building in the world. They aren't kidding: it can rain inside that building. Do go see it Mike. When I went there last I marvelled at the force that would bear on the wall from a strong wind. At the same time the structure itself is awe inspiring. I love any good competition, so here it goes: the height of technology vs the fury of nature. Wooohoooo, may the best one win! {8-] spike ps Im betting on the building in this case. From amara.graps at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 06:54:53 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:54:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien Message-ID: >> Zero Powers > >> WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for >> Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they >> believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. ... >> >>http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms >Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list >Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits >on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. >Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. >spike Don't worry Spike, Eric is a 'real' astronomer! Try the NASA ADS, if you are unsure. http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-abs_connect?db_key=AST&db_key=PRE&sim_query=YES&aut_xct=NO&aut_logic=OR&obj_logic=OR&author=Korpela%2C+E.&object=&start_mon=01&start_year=1985&end_mon=&end_year=&ttl_logic=OR&title=&txt_logic=OR&text=&nr_to_return=100&start_nr=1&start_entry_day=&start_entry_mon=&start_entry_year=&min_score=&jou_pick=ALL&ref_stems=&data_and=ALL&group_and=ALL&sort=SCORE&aut_syn=YES&ttl_syn=YES&txt_syn=YES&aut_wt=1.0&obj_wt=1.0&ttl_wt=0.3&txt_wt=3.0&aut_wgt=YES&obj_wgt=YES&ttl_wgt=YES&txt_wgt=YES&ttl_sco=YES&txt_sco=YES&version=1 >From the American Astronomical Directory: (I x'd out his email and phone number). His web site seems to be down though. Korpela First Name: Eric Member Type: Full Member Division: HEAD Institution: UC, Berkeley Address: Space Science Lab. Code 7450 Berkeley, CA 94720-7450 Work Phone: XXXX Fax: XXXX Email: XXXX Website: http://sag-www.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela From pharos at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 08:11:21 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? Message-ID: See: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? >From the article, "In 2003, Britons spent ?1,152m on games, more than ever before, and far more than on going to the cinema or renting videos or DVDs .In 2003, gamers across the world spent ?10.1bn ($18.2bn) on their hobby. Screen Digest predicts this will increase to ?11.7bn ($21.1bn) by 2007" To me, it looks like several trends are coming together here. There have been concerns that people were watching too much television and never going out in the evening. Now they are playing computer games too much. One report said that children have little contact with their family as they stay alone in their rooms surrounded by electronic gear provided by parents. Another large group spends a lot of time online, playing online games, in chat rooms, on email lists or just browsing. The increased cost and delays make travel more difficult, leading to a reluctance to travel, increased working from home, and more isolation. The perceived dangers in the streets at night are persuading more people to stay home in the evening. Shopping can be done on the net, and delivered to your home. Banking and investment is done on the net now. The birth rates in developed countries are falling below replacement levels. When you feel like visiting someplace, you look it up on the net, see pictures, read about it, then think "Do I really want to spend two hours each way travelling, to join queues for shows, queues for food, queues for drinks, etc.". Everybody *must* have a mobile phone to keep in touch with each other, but without actually meeting them in person. People email each other rather than meeting and talking. Are we trying to avoid physical contact more and more? BillK From scerir at libero.it Fri Sep 3 08:27:29 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:27:29 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001501c4918f$da373ae0$4cb81b97@administxl09yj> http://www.newscientist.com/news/nographic.jsp?id=ns99996341 From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:16:24 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:16:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <7a321705040903021665e60fa9@mail.gmail.com> Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are on their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light years away, so I could be waiting on my pay day a little while ;) Zero On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:12:20 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Zero Powers > > > > WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for > > Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they > > believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. > ... > > > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list > Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits > on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. > > Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. > > spike > > From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:21:24 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:21:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites galore Message-ID: <7a32170504090302217e1ec70a@mail.gmail.com> I've got a couple invites to pass on if anyone here is still in need. Let me know Zero From eugen at leitl.org Fri Sep 3 09:22:17 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 11:22:17 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <7a321705040903021665e60fa9@mail.gmail.com> References: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <7a321705040903021665e60fa9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are on > their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light If you can see them, why are they not here? How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? > years away, so I could be waiting on my pay day a little while ;) -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 09:58:16 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 02:58:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a32170504090302587edb1784@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:21 +0100, BillK wrote: > See: > To me, it looks like several trends are coming together here. > There have been concerns that people were watching too much television > and never going out in the evening. Now they are playing computer > games too much. > One report said that children have little contact with their family as > they stay alone in their rooms surrounded by electronic gear provided > by parents. > Another large group spends a lot of time online, playing online games, > in chat rooms, on email lists or just browsing. > The increased cost and delays make travel more difficult, leading to a > reluctance to travel, increased working from home, and more isolation. > The perceived dangers in the streets at night are persuading more > people to stay home in the evening. > Shopping can be done on the net, and delivered to your home. > Banking and investment is done on the net now. > The birth rates in developed countries are falling below replacement levels. > When you feel like visiting someplace, you look it up on the net, see > pictures, read about it, then think "Do I really want to spend two > hours each way travelling, to join queues for shows, queues for food, > queues for drinks, etc.". > Everybody *must* have a mobile phone to keep in touch with each other, > but without actually meeting them in person. > People email each other rather than meeting and talking. > Are we trying to avoid physical contact more and more? Virtual life does have its advantages. Personally I communicate more with (through?) my computer than with anyone else in my life. But at the same time I am in touch with my loved ones far more than I was say 5 or 10 years ago. My wife, kids and I are constantly IM'ing, emailing and cell phoning each other throughout the day. So even though we're all busy doing our own thing, we're never out of touch. As for actually going out into the muck of the real world, I'll only do it on occasion. In addition to the horrendous traffic on the 405 Fwy (which it seems I have to take no matter where I go here in L.A.), it's just not worth it to me to rush to get to a theatre on time, to eat stale popcorn and listen to other people talking while I'm trying to watch a movie. I'd much rather get DVD's in the mail from Netflix and watch them in the comfort of my home in my bed, next to my wife with a bowl of freshly popped corn and a bottle of wine between us. We still go out on occasion, but I'm usually disappointed by the effort and end up wishing I'd cocooned instead. The only time I'm really out in public is when working out at the gym, and even then I'm tuned out to the outside world immersed in my workout and the 4000 songs or so on the iPod. Hi-diddledy-dee its the virtual life for me! Zero From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 13:11:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 06:11:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > > > Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are > on > > their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light > > If you can see them, why are they not here? Because its a navigational beacon left behind by a dead galactic civilization. Or, it is busy playing video games. Or, it otherwise just doesn't care. 1000 ly is a long way for a howdy-doo. > > How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? A zero point field heat sink, of course. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 14:18:14 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 07:18:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <055e01c491c0$dd40b410$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Amara Graps ... > >> > >>http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms > > >Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list > >Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits > >on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. > > >Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. > >spike > > > Don't worry Spike, Eric is a 'real' astronomer! Try the NASA > ADS, if you > are unsure. ... I don't doubt Eric Korpela is a real scienist Amara. The article got my attention when it said a SETI scientist was all spun up, which made me think Dr. Jill Tarter's organization was endorsing this signal. That's why I googled and found Dr. Korpela was big in SETI at home, but it didn't say he was with SETI. SETI is super careful, very experienced and skeptical. I don't know much about SETI at home. spike From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Sep 3 14:31:49 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:31:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The New Scientist article is more informative: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an interesting natural phenomenon. best, patrick On 3 Sep 2004, at 15:11, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > >> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: >> >>> Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are >> on >>> their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light >> >> If you can see them, why are they not here? > > Because its a navigational beacon left behind by a dead galactic > civilization. Or, it is busy playing video games. Or, it otherwise just > doesn't care. 1000 ly is a long way for a howdy-doo. > >> >> How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? > > A zero point field heat sink, of course. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Sep 3 14:37:34 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:37:34 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: References: <20040903131100.6011.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical internet storm caused by the original NS article: http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html ciao, patrick On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > interesting natural phenomenon. > > best, patrick > > > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 15:11, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> >> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 02:16:24AM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: >>> >>>> Oh ye of little faith. I got a $100 says the little green men are >>> on >>>> their way as we speak. Then again the signal is only >1000 light >>> >>> If you can see them, why are they not here? >> >> Because its a navigational beacon left behind by a dead galactic >> civilization. Or, it is busy playing video games. Or, it otherwise >> just >> doesn't care. 1000 ly is a long way for a howdy-doo. >> >>> >>> How can an advanced culture radiate anything nonblackbody? >> >> A zero point field heat sink, of course. >> >> ===== >> Mike Lorrey >> Chairman, Free Town Land Development >> "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >> It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." >> -William Pitt (1759-1806) >> Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________ >> Do you Yahoo!? >> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! >> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 3 15:10:41 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:10:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <056801c491c8$2ddf4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> In response to an offlist post from a well known extropian, I wrote: OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except they use actual virtual dollars.) So everyone keep track of your own score, and propose wager amounts that are real to you personally. Don't offer to bet a million virtual euros unless you have or had at one time an actual million euros or dollars, so that you have some idea how much money that is. I accept a wager of 100 imaginary virtual dollars, my position being that this signal is not LGMs. I have another 100 IVDs that says the shuttles will see no damage from Frances. Or we could do it IFX style, buy and sell idea futures. I am offering 90 cents for NOs on both this LGM signal and Frances damages shuttles. (Still a 10% chance of an LGM is exciting. A high chance of finding an unknown physical process is very exciting.) Everyone give themselves 100 dollars or euros to start with, and keep your own score. {8-] spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 15:13:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical > internet storm caused by the original NS article: > > http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > > interesting natural phenomenon. Actually, the critics are thinking that the signal may just be a Listening Room effect, that the apparent source may be way out there, but it's actually an artifact of something close to the telescope bouncing off the shell twice. This is possible. What I find so intriguing is that they say that every time you lock onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and then it hunts around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at this freq no matter when you start listening, implies to me that it might be an example of an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses when someone is listening and starts shifting its freq then. Perhaps the physicists here could comment on this possibility... Such a dull but odd signal with FTL capabilities would be ideal for interstellar nav beacons... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 3 15:53:15 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:53:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005d01c491ce$207251f0$1db71218@Nano> http://www.seti-inst.edu/about_us/info_for_media/in_the_news/setiathome_found_signal.php Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Lorrey To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical > internet storm caused by the original NS article: > > http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > > interesting natural phenomenon. Actually, the critics are thinking that the signal may just be a Listening Room effect, that the apparent source may be way out there, but it's actually an artifact of something close to the telescope bouncing off the shell twice. This is possible. What I find so intriguing is that they say that every time you lock onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and then it hunts around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at this freq no matter when you start listening, implies to me that it might be an example of an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses when someone is listening and starts shifting its freq then. Perhaps the physicists here could comment on this possibility... Such a dull but odd signal with FTL capabilities would be ideal for interstellar nav beacons... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 3 15:54:29 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 08:54:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006401c491ce$4c18f110$1db71218@Nano> http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Lorrey To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Actually if you read the Seti at Home site this looks to be a typical > internet storm caused by the original NS article: > > http://planetary.org/news/2004/seti_signal_0902.html > > On 3 Sep 2004, at 16:31, Patrick Wilken wrote: > > > The New Scientist article is more informative: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996341 > > One of the odd things is that its apparently nowhere near any known > > stars. Its seems like the SETI at Home folks are taking it in their > > strides and want to rule out other obvious artifacts before getting > > too excited. It would be cool even if they had just found an > > interesting natural phenomenon. Actually, the critics are thinking that the signal may just be a Listening Room effect, that the apparent source may be way out there, but it's actually an artifact of something close to the telescope bouncing off the shell twice. This is possible. What I find so intriguing is that they say that every time you lock onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and then it hunts around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at this freq no matter when you start listening, implies to me that it might be an example of an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses when someone is listening and starts shifting its freq then. Perhaps the physicists here could comment on this possibility... Such a dull but odd signal with FTL capabilities would be ideal for interstellar nav beacons... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 16:19:12 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090302587edb1784@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040903161912.85985.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 09:11:21 +0100, BillK > wrote: > > Are we trying to avoid physical contact more and > more? > > Virtual life does have its advantages. Personally I > communicate more > with (through?) my computer than with anyone else in > my life. But at > the same time I am in touch with my loved ones far > more than I was say > 5 or 10 years ago. My wife, kids and I are > constantly IM'ing, > emailing and cell phoning each other throughout the > day. So even > though we're all busy doing our own thing, we're > never out of touch. > > As for actually going out into the muck of the real > world, I'll only > do it on occasion. In addition to the horrendous > traffic on the 405 > Fwy (which it seems I have to take no matter where I > go here in L.A.), > it's just not worth it to me to rush to get to a > theatre on time, to > eat stale popcorn and listen to other people talking > while I'm trying > to watch a movie. I'd much rather get DVD's in the > mail from Netflix > and watch them in the comfort of my home in my bed, > next to my wife > with a bowl of freshly popped corn and a bottle of > wine between us. > > We still go out on occasion, but I'm usually > disappointed by the > effort and end up wishing I'd cocooned instead. The > only time I'm > really out in public is when working out at the gym, > and even then I'm > tuned out to the outside world immersed in my > workout and the 4000 > songs or so on the iPod. > > Hi-diddledy-dee its the virtual life for me! What Zero said. There is a place for F2F, but it is no longer necessarily the dominant role. Commute time eats in to one's allocated 24 hours per day. I've even scored a major ($100K+) job that's pure telecommuting, though I suspect I am an anomaly there. It is not infrequent that the only reason I leave the house is to walk to the grocery store as an excuse to get some exercise - or if I set aside half an hour to walk around the neighborhood for that purpose alone. I sometimes wonder what impact this would have on the drive for space colonization. On the one hand, if you're safe in your current abode, why shift? On the other, it may turn out that the appeal of off-planet living comes more from a habitat designed for close quarters and online living than from the physical location one logs in from. (Similar habitats on Earth are labelled "arcologies", and none seem to have gotten very far so far for various reasons.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 17:13:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 10:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <056801c491c8$2ddf4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040903171329.41571.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > In response to an offlist post from a well known extropian, I wrote: > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > they use actual virtual dollars.) So everyone keep track > of your own score, and propose wager amounts that are real > to you personally. Don't offer to bet a million virtual > euros unless you have or had at one time an actual million > euros or dollars, so that you have some idea how much money > that is. > > I accept a wager of 100 imaginary virtual dollars, > my position being that this signal is not LGMs. I have > another 100 IVDs that says the shuttles will see no > damage from Frances. No bet. Eyewall velocities are at 100 mph and dropping. Frances is going to be a dud. Move along folks, nothing to see here... better luck next time. I will wager .25 IVozAu that this signal is alien, and .125 IVozAu that it is a lazy radio tech's Game Boy he forgot somewhere in the instrument. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From samantha at objectent.com Fri Sep 3 19:46:54 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:46:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <4137A18F.3030505@pobox.com> References: <42C5A2EF-6A12-11D8-A656-000A95B18568@antipope.org> <4137A18F.3030505@pobox.com> Message-ID: <01D788AC-FDE2-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 2, 2004, at 3:41 PM, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Charlie Stross wrote: >> If you bolt all this together and articulate it, you find: >> * We are probably/we appear to be living close to a singularity >> * After this singularity, the boundary conditions of human existence >> change radically >> * Ancestor simulation is one of these changes >> * We are probably living in an ancestor simulation >> * Our most recent memories are clearest because the technology used >> to record them matured between our current time and the singularity; >> our earlier memories are hazy and vague because they're largely >> interpolated guesswork rather than accurate simulation >> Can someone please spot some holes in my reasoning before I go mad? >> I'm not sure I enjoy living in a Philip K. Dick novel ... > > Well, the last item isn't correct because a noticeable differential > between early and late memories resulting from a difference of > recording technology would be a predictable flaw in the simulation, > and an easily correctable one; have the inmates never notice the gaps > in their memories. Also the same phenomenon is adequately explained > by other theories of neurology. > Since there are neurological reasons binding on the originals to give this effect there is no reason the sim should not also contain the defect so there is no reason to hide any possible recording flaw. > So there might be huge gaping gaps in your playback of Charlie Stross, > but you would be forbidden to notice. > Notice? Compared to what? > Plus, that the above was posted to the Extropians mailing list implies > that it is a known part of history, i.e., the original Stross posted > it as well. > Why should the sim be exactly like the original? Wouldn't part of the interest in a sim be to explore alternate outcomes? A simple recording doing exactly the same thing would be boring. I don't see how folks with any believe in MWI would also belief that a sim can't have anything in it that the original did not. Is a sim perhaps what happens when a sufficiently powerful mind ruminates over the past and possible different branch points? If so lamenting the state of the "inmates" is silly for the same reason lamenting the conditions of virtual entities in a computer game is silly. - samantha From samantha at objectent.com Fri Sep 3 19:56:12 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:56:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 2, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >> Us vs Them develops when there are such difference >> between the groups >> that there is little mutual understanding and when >> there are >> conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is >> when one or both >> groups sees the other as a threat that must be >> eliminated. > > *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that it > need not always happen - like, say, by trying to > develop mutual understanding or find ways to make the > needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to > destroying the other group. What if one group develops and willingly uses such enhancements that the group without them is no more capable of understanding them than a ant is capable of understanding a human? > >> In >> transhumanist terms those without various levels of >> augmentation/life >> extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will >> consider those who do >> have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats >> UNLESS the technology >> is either available to all or seen as seriously >> improving everyone's >> lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. > > And aren't the enhancements we're trying to get > developed aimed at improving the lives of those who > have them? So, make sure that everyone can have them, > and that their benefits are easily seen by everyone > (which shouldn't be too hard, once there are real > examples to point to), and there we go. > _______________________________________________ > Yes, but not everyone will choose the enhancements nor is it clear that all enhancements can produced cheaply and in quantity sufficient for everyone who does want them to have them. People are not completely rational (big surprise). If we can quickly get to a more abundant world where comparative super-persons do not threaten one's very survival directly and if the "haves" consider the "have-nots" as potential "haves" who just need a bit of time and space or as simply an example of worthwhile and valued diversity, then it should have a relatively happy outcome. - samantha From dwish at indco.net Sat Sep 4 20:06:52 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:06:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites galore In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090302217e1ec70a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200409031919.i83JJuS9022009@br549.indconet.com> Thank a bunch!!!! Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI Pres. WTA Arkansas ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Zero Powers Sent: Friday, September 03, 2004 4:21 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites galore I've got a couple invites to pass on if anyone here is still in need. Let me know Zero _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Sep 3 20:10:49 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:10:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroy the remaining three shuttles? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Having watched this situation, and this thread, I can add the following... The VAB is magnificent, have seen it as others attest, wonderful. However- Even if it really can withstand Cat5, it can't withstand a Cat3 roof being torn from somewhere else gapping one of its walls. The newer buildings, including the Orbiter Processing Facility (yes, Atlantis, Discovery and Endeavor are all parked inside in varying states as stated) which is only built to Cat3. NASA vehicles are self-insured, unlike commercial vehicles. We could only hope that next years allocated shuttle funds would be diverted into a new program such as the Crew Exploration Vehicle. I have heard the storm surge was at 12 feet. Not sure how that stacks against the remark of a nine foot KSC elevation. Don't like the way it sounds. Lastly, my understanding is that you can't bump a shuttle around too much. If one gets knocked off a pylon or such, they would have to x-ray every square inch of the airframe for microfracture, etc. etc. I don't know if an Orbiter damaged by a storm would fly again. My guess is that if two of three are damaged, the third would not fly again lacking a backup/rescue capacity as per the Accident Investigation Board. Or I don't remember that properly. Ah, Fridays. I'll have my fingers crossed with coffee tomorrow. Bret Kulakovich ps - anyone considering attendance at next years return-to-flight? From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Sep 3 20:27:08 2004 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 16:27:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Craig from Craigslist, Wired, and the Singularity? Message-ID: Did I read this on the list? Or am I going to read this on the list because I am posting it? - I did scour my mailbox and didn't find an instance. Anyway - Interview in Wired with Craig Newmark, of Craigslist. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/craigslist.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 The ending is worth the read. Its just a nice surprise. Cheers, Bret Kulakovich From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 3 20:51:25 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:51:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:27 PM 9/3/2004 -0400, Bret wrote: >Interview in Wired with Craig Newmark, of Craigslist. >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/craigslist.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 See Bruce Sterling being curmudgeonly on singularity (again) at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/view.html?pg=4 From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 3 21:08:26 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 14:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Sep 2, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins > wrote: > >> Us vs Them develops when there are such > difference > >> between the groups > >> that there is little mutual understanding and > when > >> there are > >> conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict > is > >> when one or both > >> groups sees the other as a threat that must be > >> eliminated. > > > > *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that > it > > need not always happen - like, say, by trying to > > develop mutual understanding or find ways to make > the > > needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to > > destroying the other group. > > What if one group develops and willingly uses such > enhancements that > the group without them is no more capable of > understanding them than a > ant is capable of understanding a human? Depends on the exact level of understanding you mean: The group without can, at least, trace the history of how the other group came to be, and begin to understand them in that way. - or - It is already the case that many humans do not begin to truly understand others that they interact with. For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly understand any of us today? This has been the case for quite a long time now, and while there has been harm inflicted (most of which was eventually repaired), a World War III between the technological haves and the technological rejectors has not come to pass on any large scale yet (the Gulf Wars being a far cry from "large scale" in this context). > >> In > >> transhumanist terms those without various levels > of > >> augmentation/life > >> extension/intelligence enhancement and so on will > >> consider those who do > >> have it as deadly vastly more competitive threats > >> UNLESS the technology > >> is either available to all or seen as seriously > >> improving everyone's > >> lifes and well-being at a very concrete level. > > > > And aren't the enhancements we're trying to get > > developed aimed at improving the lives of those > who > > have them? So, make sure that everyone can have > them, > > and that their benefits are easily seen by > everyone > > (which shouldn't be too hard, once there are real > > examples to point to), and there we go. > > Yes, but not everyone will choose the enhancements > nor is it clear that > all enhancements can produced cheaply and in > quantity sufficient for > everyone who does want them to have them. People > are not completely > rational (big surprise). If we can quickly get to > a more abundant > world where comparative super-persons do not > threaten one's very > survival directly and if the "haves" consider the > "have-nots" as > potential "haves" who just need a bit of time and > space or as simply an > example of worthwhile and valued diversity, then it > should have a > relatively happy outcome. And that is what we - the transhumanists who are reviled as "dangerous" - are in fact working towards, no? From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 3 21:17:47 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:17:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >how the other group came to be, and begin to >unde rstandtheminthatway. > >- or - > >It is already the case that many humans do not begin >to truly understandothersthattheyinteractwith. >For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly A lot of my email is arriving looking that way, with chunks of text stuck together. I'm using the freebie or ad-subsidized Eudora 6.11.Can anyone tell me what's happening here? Damien Broderick From scerir at libero.it Fri Sep 3 21:48:39 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:48:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ff01c491ff$c63de690$cdc11b97@administxl09yj> Mike Lorrey > it might be an example of an entangled photon > FTL comm device, that it instantaneously senses > when someone is listening and starts shifting > its freq then. de Broglie wavelenght of a bi-photon (2 entangled photons) is 1/2 of the usual de Broglie wavelenght of an individual photon. Penta-photons are produced in laboratories, to date. But this is not enough to modulate. You need another entanglement between a n-photon current at the source and a n-photon current at the detector (earth). "n" variable too! ??? Another possibility is a sort of triangular entanglement between a photon (at the source) and a bi-photon, going to a detector (earth). Measurements performed (or not performed) on the photon at the source could dis-entangle the bi-photon going to the detector (earth), changing its wavelenght. ??? A double Franson-type "time" interferometer (one interferometer on the star, one on the earth) could, in principle, be useful, since the outcomes in both interferometer are the same (if delta phases = zero), with entangled photons. Possibility of red/blue shifting modulation ???? Another (crazy, eh!) one. If two sources send signals (same wavelenght, more or less, the "same" wavelenght is not a "must") to earth, and the geometry is such that you can not distinguish wich of the two sources emitted that signal (photon), you get (in theory) a double strange effect: interference of signals (one photon two sources interference) and entanglement between the sources (if they are quantal!). Now if the sources are, then, entangled .... could they .... bah! But yes, Star Trek physics can do much better than this. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 22:54:16 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903151330.25139.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040903225416.4172.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > What I find so intriguing is that they say that > every time you lock > onto the signal, it is at that 1140 ghz freq (?) and > then it hunts > around 30 or so hz range. That it always starts at > this freq no matter > when you start listening, implies to me that it > might be an example of > an entangled photon FTL comm device, that it > instantaneously senses > when someone is listening and starts shifting its > freq then. Perhaps > the physicists here could comment on this > possibility... Might the so called "frequency drift" associated with SHGb02+14a actually be purposeful frequency modulation of a repeating message similar to FM broadcasts of earth radios? I know that normal modulation of a carrier signal would probably be in a much more narrow frequency band, but might not doppler effects on a transmitter traveling at relativistic speeds produce a similar broadening of the modulation range of such an artificial signal? I do think it might be prudent to determine what characteristics a fast moving FM broadcast would have from 1000 ly away. Also I am curious why SETI scientists think that extraterrestrial civilazations would use the frequency of absorption/emmision of hydrogen to attempt to communicate with us. Wouldn't this make their signal seem like a needle in a haystack rather than making it conspicuous? Wouldn't it make more sense to use a frequency that would stand out against natural radio sources? ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 3 22:58:24 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040903225824.11268.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: >> > If you can see them, why are they not here? Well considering they are 1000 LY away, Marconi's transtlantic radio broadcast won't reach them for 900 more years, even if they had the tech to pick up such a ridiculously weak signal. So maybe we found them before they found us. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From amara.graps at gmail.com Fri Sep 3 23:39:04 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 01:39:04 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtual reality? Message-ID: About Face to Face versus Virtual interactions... t the end of my street is a garage where two old mechanics fix cars. They have no business name posted on the outside. No hours listed. No telephones present. They have many customers; they are usually always working on a car with another car outside waiting. For one-and-half years in the morning, I have said buon giorno to them with a smile, and they have answered buon giorno with their smiles. I don't know what are their names, and they don't know what is my name. About a month ago a series of mechanical problems developed on my old car, and I needed the services of the car mechanics at the end of the street. The first was my car door latch that broke - a couple of times of holding the door closed while I was drove was enough danger for me, and so I brought the car to the anonymous auto mechanics. They could understand immediately what was wrong, and I didn't need to try to explain anything in my bad Italian. They proceeded to tell me the time they needed to fix it, I went away for a few hours, they bought the part and installed it, I returned, they cold me the cost, I gave them cash, and I drove my car away. A few hours later, while my car was parked down the street from them in front of my apartment building, the car refused to start. The electrical system was kaput it seemed. So I walked at the end of the street, told them in my bad Italian that the car wouldn't start, and they walked with me to where it was parked and proceeded to check it out there. 'Dead Battery' they said, told me the time they needed to buy a new battery and install it, I went away, they did the work, I returned, they told me the cost, I gave them cash, and my car started again. Now I still don't know the name of the anonymous mechanics and they don't know the name of their anonymous customer, yet the transaction took place, indeed, at the end, they *fixed it at my home*, and I'm sure that we trust each other. Moreover, the transaction happened when my speaking and language understanding skills were (and are) extremely poor, so communication between them and me took place at a very low level. Such a transaction required that face to face interaction. So I think it is worthwhile to consider the spectrum of interactions that humans can have with each other. Not only do we have the richness of all five senses, we have a context of body language and a history of that body language, even when few words are spoken. Communication can occur on many levels. Amara From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Sep 3 23:52:25 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you would like one. - Jef From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 02:03:24 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 19:03:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <7a32170504090319031d383aa5@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > would like one. > > - Jef BTW, the way gmail groups threads together into "conversations" is kinda neat, particularly for fairly active lists like this one. I used to get overwhelmed with page after page of message headers in Hotmail, particularly if I didn't check it *every* day. But with gmail the messages of each thread are all grouped together on a single line and can be perused, moved, archived or deleted together as a group. Makes for a much less overwhelming feeling when checking in on the list after a couple days. I've still got a few invites left, so if anyone here isn't already on the bandwagon, let me know and I'll hook you up. Zero From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 02:27:24 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 12:27:24 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien) References: <056801c491c8$2ddf4470$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <00d301c49226$b6ef11b0$ec202dcb@homepc> Spike wrote: > In response to an offlist post from a well known extropian, I wrote: > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > they use actual virtual dollars.) Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except that the money wasn't real. The lack of that essential detail made it virtually useless to me. Like playing monopoly with a bunch of opinionated children that lose nothing if they are wrong so they go straight back to making ridiculous claims. I'd be happy to bet *against* certain propositions that are often championed on the Exi list, not because I have a curmudgeonly personality (although at times I might :-) but because it makes fuzzy wishy washy talkers get a lot more precise and specific (and thereby potentially more interesting and effective if they happen to be right) in order to operationalise the bet. This does not mean that I have money to burn, quite to the contrary it means that I am willing to trade money for time. I am willing to back my judgement and my understanding of what is and is not possible in some cases against people who claim or pretend to be experts. I can't do it effectively at this stage because there is no *real* futures market. Or is there? Does anyone know of one? Brett Paatsch From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 03:48:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:48:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <20040903171329.41571.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > > ...I have another 100 IVDs that says the shuttles will see no > > damage from Frances. > > No bet. Eyewall velocities are at 100 mph and dropping. Frances is > going to be a dud. Move along folks, nothing to see here... > ... ===== Mike Lorrey OK here is a good place for me to vent. I have disparaged the news industry in this forum before, so if you have no interest in hearing more, do hit delete. I have been in contact with my parents in Titusville Florida, just inland of Cape Canaveral. They decided to stand their ground, stay in their house, weather the storm. The way the news media handled this storm Frances caused many of the proletariat to flee in a panic. Nothing sells news like danger, eh? Ordinarily I would be sympathetic with that kind of thing, for after all profit was generated. But the newsers have acted very irresponsibly. The fleeing proles have evidently failed to calculate the range of their Detroits and failed to adequately plan what they would do at the end of that fuel tank. (These soldiers will never make general. I hope.) With inadequate fuel and food aboard, now there are dead conveyances everywhere along I95 and I75, the two major arteries out of Florida, filled with panicked proles, frantically searching for fuel, food and water. Well fer crying the hell out loud! They have put themselves in greater danger than if they would just sit tight at home. They keep saying there is a mandatory evacuation, but of course no one has the authority to make you leave your home. Its *your* home. Honestly folks, it isn't the apocalyse, its just a storm. Sure there will be some roof damage here and there, stuff may fly around. But in most cases you are safer in your sturdy home with adequate supplies, than on some clogged freeway filled with panicky and sleepy yahoos creeping to the north. Floridians, stand your ground! spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 04:14:03 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 21:14:03 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <00d301c49226$b6ef11b0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <059801c49235$9d2eaba0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch > To: ExI chat list > Spike wrote: > > > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > > they use actual virtual dollars.) > > Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? > > Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except > that the money wasn't real... > I can't do it effectively at this stage because there is no *real* > futures market. Or is there? Does anyone know of one? Brett Paatsch Brett just set up a private real money IFX with individuals. You could contact your buddies and agree to buy and sell each other ideas futures. All private transactions so governments won't think they deserve a cut. Anyone who has friends and associates can play real money ideas futures. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 05:30:47 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:30:47 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat] SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) References: <059801c49235$9d2eaba0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <00fb01c49240$54ec96d0$ec202dcb@homepc> > > Spike wrote: > > > > > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > > > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > > > they use actual virtual dollars.) > > > > Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? > > > > Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except > > that the money wasn't real... > > I can't do it effectively at this stage because there is no *real* > > futures market. Or is there? Does anyone know of one? Brett Paatsch > > Brett just set up a private real money IFX with > individuals. You could contact your buddies and > agree to buy and sell each other ideas futures. > All private transactions so governments won't think > they deserve a cut. Anyone who has friends and > associates can play real money ideas futures. If I only wanted to bet on sports or stuff that doesn't matter much then I could bet with individuals now and wouldn't need a ideas futures market. If I only bet with friends and reputable associates then I could probably keep governments out of it but it would be small scale. It takes a certain number of market participants to make a market work. In Australia I don't think there are enough people who understand most of the future technological stuff that is of interest to transhumanists (and has been of interest to me) to make up a viable market. It also takes a certain amount of time and money invested to justify setting up an internet based market. (I wonder if that's why Robin didn't push forward with his idea? ). For me to do it, I'd have to learn how to do it technically, then do it. There are skills I'd have to acquire first. Before I would start on something like (taking the time and effort to create the actual market) I'd want to be sure that there was enough people willing to bet real money. I'd also want to be sure that someone else isn't just about to do it. It is one thing to want to buy or sell something, it is another to want to go into the businesses of providing the market for buyers and sellers to get together. I *would* bet on someone else's market (like Robin's) if it was there and real and I could check it out and do a bit of reasonable sensible due diligence. Brett Paatsch From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 05:41:56 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:41:56 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re: [extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <00fb01c49240$54ec96d0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <05a201c49241$e43cdce0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch > > > > Spike wrote: > > > > > > > > OK lets do it this way: lets wager using imaginary virtual > > > > dollars, sorta like Robin Hansen's IFX ideas futures (except > > > > they use actual virtual dollars.) > > > > > > Why only imaginary dollars and monopoly money? > > > > > > Robin's futures market seemed to me to be a good idea. Except > > > that the money wasn't real... > > It takes a certain number of market participants to make a market > work. In Australia I don't think there are enough people who > understand most of the future technological stuff... to make up a viable market... > Brett Paatsch Why does it need to be in Australia? What Im getting at is there are enough people in extropians, sl4, BetterHumans, to raise a group to do real money IFX. My notion is to somehow piggyback off of Robin's IFX without reinventing anything. Then your private real-money IFX would kinda be betting on the future prices that will show up on the virtual money IFX. How about it? How many would like to join a private real money IFX game? Perhaps someone is already running one somewhere. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 06:06:36 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:06:36 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (was Re:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) References: <05a201c49241$e43cdce0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <011b01c49245$55e4c030$ec202dcb@homepc> Spike: > there are enough people in extropians, sl4, BetterHumans, to > raise a group to do real money IFX. My notion is to somehow > piggyback off of Robin's IFX without reinventing anything. > Then your private real-money IFX would kinda be betting on > the future prices that will show up on the virtual money IFX. > > How about it? How many would like to join a private real > money IFX game? Perhaps someone is already running one somewhere. I'd definately be interested. I think the market would hone good ideas and disclose good and bad futures analysts. I wouldn't mind losing money (and so empowering) someone good enough to take it from me (because I'd learn something that mattered). I can also see how it would be useful to be able to hedge. Brett From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 4 06:14:12 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 23:14:12 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <011b01c49245$55e4c030$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Brett Paatsch ... > > I'd definately be interested. I think the market would hone good > ideas and disclose good and bad futures analysts. > > I wouldn't mind losing money (and so empowering) someone good > enough to take it from me (because I'd learn something that mattered). > I can also see how it would be useful to be able to hedge. > > Brett Wait a minute, its coming back to me now. We have been over this ground before. Either that or I am having deja vu, that strange feeling you someti... mz get... This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time so I declined, and never got back with it. Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, thanks. spike From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 06:58:34 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 16:58:34 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Fri, 2004-09-03 at 23:14 -0700, Spike wrote: > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > thanks. Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on that sentence though) alejandro From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:16:07 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:16:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Oh yeah, that one. I know the problem. Your email buddy has a wad of chewing gum stuck under his space-bar ;) Zero On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:17:47 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > >how the other group came to be, and begin to > >unde rstandtheminthatway. > > > >- or - > > > >It is already the case that many humans do not begin > >to truly understandothersthattheyinteractwith. > >For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly > > A lot of my email is arriving looking that way, with chunks of text stuck > together. I'm using the freebie or ad-subsidized Eudora 6.11.Can anyone > tell me what's happening here? > > Damien Broderick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:30:20 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:30:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very true. Technology will someday permit handling remotely all levels of communicatons, but we are far from there yet. G. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps Sent: s?bado, 04 de septiembre de 2004 1:39 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Cc: amara at amara.com Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? Such a transaction required that face to face interaction. So I think it is worthwhile to consider the spectrum of interactions that humans can have with each other. Not only do we have the richness of all five senses, we have a context of body language and a history of that body language, even when few words are spoken. Communication can occur on many levels. Amara --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From eugen at leitl.org Sat Sep 4 07:44:34 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:44:34 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <20040903225824.11268.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040903092217.GW1458@leitl.org> <20040903225824.11268.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040904074434.GC1458@leitl.org> On Fri, Sep 03, 2004 at 03:58:24PM -0700, The Avantguardian wrote: > > If you can see them, why are they not here? > > Well considering they are 1000 LY away, Marconi's > transtlantic radio broadcast won't reach them for 900 > more years, even if they had the tech to pick up such > a ridiculously weak signal. So maybe we found them > before they found us. Building and launching a relativistic self-rep probe is the equivalent of a science fair project for an advanced culture. Arecibo is for the galactic nursery strictly. Transmission in the hydrogen band as a means to initiate contact? Gimme a break. Have you noticed how Earth looks from space over several last decades? Bright monochromatic sources are an earmark of primitive communication. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 07:51:53 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:51:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> Yes and no. Sure, there are some types of communication where F2F is a big plus, primarily romantic relationships come to mind. E-mail, telephone, IM, even video-conferencing can't say "I love you" like a smile and a twinkle in the eye coupled with a kiss on the lips. But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. Obviously that kind of relationship won't work in every industry, but in mine it works just fine. And the tech will only improve. I remember reading somewhere that Ray Kurzweil gave a speech in another country somewhere using some sort of holographic videoconferencing system. Give me something like that and I'd *never* have to leave the house. On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:30:20 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Very true. Technology will someday permit handling remotely all levels of > communicatons, but we are far from there yet. > G. > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Sent: s?bado, 04 de septiembre de 2004 1:39 > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Cc: amara at amara.com > Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into > virtualreality? > Such a transaction required that face to face interaction. So I > think it is worthwhile to consider the spectrum of interactions that > humans can have with each other. Not only do we have the richness of > all five senses, we have a context of body language and a history of > that body language, even when few words are spoken. Communication > can occur on many levels. > > Amara From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 07:58:54 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:58:54 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money?(wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: [Spike] > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > > thanks. > > Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money > for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on > that sentence though) Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid wasn't real. I think I recall Robin posting to this list perhaps 12 months before that looking for prototype application areas that could be explored commerically with a view to helping to make the idea more real. A sort of anticipating-terrorists-attacks idea did raise attention (from memory) and may have even been reported as an interesting idea in the Economist or somewhere but I'm pretty sure it didn't get any real traction and also was spoken against by some "establishment types". Brett From benboc at lineone.net Sat Sep 4 08:10:40 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 09:10:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [extropy-chat Digest] Women and Voting - A bit of History In-Reply-To: <200409031619.i83GJY022897@tick.javien.com> References: <200409031619.i83GJY022897@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41397880.7020604@lineone.net> Women and Voting - A bit of History Don't forget that a right is not an obligation. The important thing is that women have a right, the right to vote, this includes the right to choose to vote. To say that women have an obligation to vote, because of those women who suffered to gain the right, is just another form of oppression. Not voting is exercising your right to choose to vote. By all means, tell people that you think they should vote, and why you think that. But don't insist that they have a *duty* to. I think there is a parallel with transhumanism here. We are working towards making many wonderful choices available to people in the future, such as longer healthier lives, enhancements of their bodies and minds, opportunities to explore places and things that aren't available to us now. I'd hate to think that people in the future might be pressurised into taking up these choices, as a matter of obligation to people who made the effort to make them available. Do you want to *make* people live longer lives, if what they want is to be left alone to live a 'natural', unenhanced life, and die after a few decades? Surely they have the right to make that choice? Just as people now (women or not) have the right to choose not to vote. ben From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 08:25:17 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:25:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 00:51:53 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Yes and no. Sure, there are some types of communication where F2F is > a big plus, primarily romantic relationships come to mind. E-mail, > telephone, IM, even video-conferencing can't say "I love you" like a > smile and a twinkle in the eye coupled with a kiss on the lips. > > But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our > technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for > years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail > them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the > phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But > F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. > > Obviously that kind of relationship won't work in every industry, but > in mine it works just fine. And the tech will only improve. I > remember reading somewhere that Ray Kurzweil gave a speech in another > country somewhere using some sort of holographic videoconferencing > system. Give me something like that and I'd *never* have to leave the > house. > You can already use your webcam to make video phone calls if both pcs are set up with the appropriate software. New 3D screens in the pipeline will improve this even more. F2F is required for romantic relationships. But have you noticed that more and more people are choosing to live on their own? Bachelor flats for both men and women are increasingly popular. They still meet for liaisons, I have heard :), but they want their own space to live in. One of the reasons Friday and Saturday nights are becoming nogo areas in UK cities is because of they are now drunken, testosterone semi-riots, full of youngsters fighting and sexual liaisons, with the police vainly trying to keep some control. Modern life seems to be moving towards only going out when absolutely necessary. If you don't go out, you don't need to get your car fixed. :) BillK From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 09:03:40 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 19:03:40 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money?(wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 17:58 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > [Spike] > > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > > > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > > > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > > > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > > > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > > > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > > > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > > > > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > > > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > > > thanks. > > > > Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money > > for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on > > that sentence though) > > Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and > Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid > wasn't real. > I didn't mean the public www.ideosphere.com, but a private version run for Senior Associates only. I am sure that i was sure at some point that it existed, but i can't find links to it anywhere, although i've found enough hints in old (but not very old (sept 2001) foresight update issues not to force me to accept it was completely a figment of my imagination yet. Of course, this isn't much good to you, but you could check with the foresight institute. alejandro From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 09:43:33 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 19:43:33 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > Hasn't foresight been running an IFX (Robin's original) with real money > > > for about a decade now? (i could be mistaken in at least three counts on > > > that sentence though) > > > > Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and > > Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid > > wasn't real. > > > I didn't mean the public www.ideosphere.com, but a private version run > for Senior Associates only. That's the one I'd seen. > I am sure that i was sure at some point > that it existed, but i can't find links to it anywhere, although i've > found enough hints in old (but not very old (sept 2001) foresight update > issues not to force me to accept it was completely a figment of my > imagination yet. > Of course, this isn't much good to you, but you could check with the > foresight institute. Wouldn't that be a bit like going to the Catholic church, saying I'm an atheist and asking for a list of members that want to bet with me on the existence of god? If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on say molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater opportunity to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is going to work? Having a closed market would seem to be exactly the opposite to the optimal strategy for getting funds to those who already agree with foresight and for persuading sceptics. Say Smalley bet with Drexler and lost - that would be almost priceless publicity for Drexler and Foresight wouldn't it? If Drexler won, Smalley would not only have to pay him, he'd have to change his mind. Or am I missing something? Brett From alex at ramonsky.com Sat Sep 4 10:26:24 2004 From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 11:26:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links Message-ID: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> Nice neuro links to dive into: ****************** http://brainmuseum.org/index.html (massive collection of mammalian brains) http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/index.html (lots of diverse topics) http://www.neuroguide.com/index.html (neuroscience resources. This site can be a bugger to navigate) http://www.psy.ed.ac.uk/psychexps/Exps/experiments.html (psychology experiments) http://psych.hanover.edu/Research/exponnet.html (psychology experiments) http://www.beemnet.com/dana/virtuallabs.html (more invasive techniques. If squeamish bring sick bag) http://www.ucsf.edu/neurosc/faculty/Sretavan/freeze.html (Axon growth. -Massive file; don't go there without broadband) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ (Biotechnology. The link 'OMIM' takes you to the Online Inheritance in Man site) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/madsweb/ (animations & pdf files about various bits of brain) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/sensesweb/ (animation of learning & memory.) http://www.uwm.edu/~johnchay/cc.htm (classical conditioning -you get to play with the variables. Entertaining when drunk.) Sites about motivation: http://www.nida.nih.gov/ http://www.lsa.umich.edu/psych/research&labs/berridge/Research.html Sites about emotion: http://mambo.ucsc.edu/psl/fanl.html http://www.unige.ch/fapse/emotion/ http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/Common/Research/cognition-emotion/index.shtml http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/emotion/ http://emotion.salk.edu/Emotion/EmoRes/Psych/SelTops.html Sites about consciousness: http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ccsmain/Tucson2002/Tucson2002index.htm http://www.imprint.co.uk/jcs.html http://jamaica.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/ *********************** Enjoy! AR -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 11:10:40 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 21:10:40 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 19:43 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > I am sure that i was sure at some point > > that it existed, but i can't find links to it anywhere, although i've > > found enough hints in old (but not very old (sept 2001) foresight update > > issues not to force me to accept it was completely a figment of my > > imagination yet. > > > Of course, this isn't much good to you, but you could check with the > > foresight institute. > > Wouldn't that be a bit like going to the Catholic church, saying I'm an > atheist and asking for a list of members that want to bet with me on the > existence of god? > > If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on say > molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being > bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater opportunity > to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is > going to work? > but all bets are not about nanotech. > Or am I missing something? > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots of places. but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I always thought that was the main obstacle. alejandro From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 4 11:45:15 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:45:15 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <023601c49274$a55306c0$ec202dcb@homepc> Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 19:43 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on say > > molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being > > bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater opportunity > > to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is > > going to work? > > > but all bets are not about nanotech. Sure, but even so, mixing bears and bulls on any issue would give the best market. And nanotech would be a good thing to have a market on. Its already attracting plenty of commercial interest. > > Or am I missing something? > > > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > of places. Perceived and actual problems with different legislations across different legal jurisdictions might have been a possible impediment to Robin taking his idea further. Its possible and apparently legal to bet in Australia over the internet. http://www.centrebet.com/australian-federal-election-2004.php I don't bet on sports but I was interested to see recently if it would be possible to bet on the Australian federal election. It is. Its the sportsbetting places that offer it. I think the law in this area in Australian has only been sorted out relatively recently though (late last year or early this year sort of recently). I think I heard or read somewhere that Jamie Packer was looking at internet betting as a promising future business area. I don't know what the situation is in the US, it could be that it varies state by state. If the US was a homogenous market (legislatively) it would seem to be by far the most sensible place to start a for-real-money futures market as it would have the biggest population of punters. > but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I > always thought that was the main obstacle. I'm not a lawyer. I am interested in the law. Some areas of it more than others, but I have never done a full law degree. Brett Paatsch From alito at organicrobot.com Sat Sep 4 12:49:12 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:49:12 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <023601c49274$a55306c0$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <023601c49274$a55306c0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1094302152.24966.117.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 21:45 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > On Sat, 2004-09-04 at 19:43 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > If the majority of scientifically literate investors are not bullish on > say > > > molecular nanotechnology, and they are in fact wrong in not being > > > bullish, then shouldn't their error be seen as all the greater > opportunity > > > to get more easy money by those who are sure molecular nanotech is > > > going to work? > > > > > but all bets are not about nanotech. > > Sure, but even so, mixing bears and bulls on any issue would give the best > market. And nanotech would be a good thing to have a market on. Its > already attracting plenty of commercial interest. > no doubt that would be best. what i meant was that the market is not completely invalidated just because it is a open to a few selected players. its value diminishes, certainly, especially in cases where the bias of the group is clear, but there's still plenty of other material to play on. > > > Or am I missing something? > > > > > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > > of places. > > Perceived and actual problems with different legislations across different > legal jurisdictions might have been a possible impediment to Robin taking > his idea further. > > Its possible and apparently legal to bet in Australia over the internet. > http://www.centrebet.com/australian-federal-election-2004.php > I don't bet on sports but I was interested to see recently if it would be > possible to bet on the Australian federal election. It is. Its the > sportsbetting places that offer it. > Yes, but they have a gambling license. Last i heard it was illegal for an australian to offer a betting service online without a gambling license. (It is still legal to bet online though). My assumption is that a gambling license would be ridiculously hard to get, but i'm just guessing there. > I'm not a lawyer. I am interested in the law. Some areas of it more than > others, but I have never done a full law degree. > Ah, sorry bout that. alejandro From neptune at superlink.net Sat Sep 4 13:54:38 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:54:38 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Piecing Together Human Aging: Science Online Special Collection Message-ID: <001101c49286$b8ef9b00$8d893cd1@pavilion> http://www.sciencemag.org/sciext/aging2004/ From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:16:10 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:16:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <59F72A4C-FE85-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Sep 4, 2004, at 3:58 AM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Last I looked between 18 months and 6 months ago (when both Hal and > Harvey were posting here about it), then I checked and the money bid > wasn't real. The other problem I had with these markets is that they didn't seem that accurate, despite all the claims. I looked back through the history of all the political predictions, and I couldn't see that they were any more accurate than the polls as suggested. Many of them were radically wrong. Most of them swung wildly back and forth between the two options and only settled on the right one just before the elections. A graph that radically oscillates between both choices back and forth has not predictive value, because you can extract any prediction you want at different times. I looked at political elections, because this is one of the best cases where I think the markets should be able to predict best. Elections are just voting people's preferences, as are markets, so they should be more predictable. But even these weren't. I am even less convinced that markets on technology would work. Without inside information, investors go on hype and what they believe is real, rather than making any real predictions. The Enron scandal and dot-com bubbles show that markets are driven on belief and not reality. While they work well in well understood areas, they are not good at predicting poorly understood areas. And I am really opposed to the concept of terrorist markets working. Besides having no information to work with, terrorists change their plans at a moment's notice and will specifically veer aware from a target with too much protection or public expectation. Even if the market got it right, I would expect the terrorists to cancel and avoid such a target so that it wouldn't really happen. My other concern was there were vague hints that the government didn't really intend to let people get rich on terrorist predictions, but instead would go after any winning investor as a probable terrorist with inside knowledge. When there were outcries from congress, they were told not to worry, that there was no intention of letting terrorists profit from this market or actually get away with making money from their crimes. This would destroy the value of a market, if it really worked, if people didn't get to keep their winnings or had their lives ruined by the government after being successful in the market. No one else would follow such an event with successful investing! -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:27:13 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:27:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2004, at 11:48 PM, Spike wrote: > The way the news media handled this storm Frances caused > many of the proletariat to flee in a panic. Nothing sells > news like danger, eh? Ordinarily I would be sympathetic > with that kind of thing, for after all profit was generated. I don't think this is fair, Spike. Earlier, this storm was just 10 MPH short of being a category 5 storm, like Anderw, the worst storm in history. Instead of grazing the bottom edge of the state and over some islands, it is going across the middle of the state. 20 people died in hurricane Charley, and this storm is still much bigger and much stronger. I don't see what is irresponsible about evacuating an area where dozens of people may be killed even after evacuation. Besides, the news media didn't invent the evacuation orders, these come straight from the government. You can't blame the media for people evacuating. > Honestly folks, it isn't the apocalyse, its just a storm. > Sure there will be some roof damage here and there, stuff > may fly around. But in most cases you are safer in your > sturdy home with adequate supplies, than on some clogged > freeway filled with panicky and sleepy yahoos creeping to > the north. Floridians, stand your ground! Spike, trees are already down in my home town of Melbourne now. They are predicting sustained winds of over 100 MPH for over 24 hours. Did you see the pictures from hurricane Charley? There are foundations with no houses on them. Forget mobile home parks which are totally gone now, I am talking about real structures that are not there anymore. People cannot weather the storm in such structures. This is how those 20 people died and hundreds were injured, trying to stay home. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:33:06 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:33:06 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:17:47 -0500, Damien Broderick > wrote: >> >>> how the other group came to be, and begin to >>> unde rstandtheminthatway. >>> >>> - or - >>> >>> It is already the case that many humans do not begin >>> to truly understandothersthattheyinteractwith. >>> For instance, what Luddite could be said to truly >> >> A lot of my email is arriving looking that way, with chunks of text >> stuck >> together. I'm using the freebie or ad-subsidized Eudora 6.11.Can >> anyone >> tell me what's happening here? >> >> Damien Broderick The freebie version of Eudora downloads advertisements constantly while you are using it. i think the higher network interrupts are interfering with your keystrokes if you type too fast. You might try unplugging your network cable to see if the typing improves. I know this isn't a solution, but it would test my theory. This is one of the reasons I hate adware, because it interferes with what you really want the computer to be doing. -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 15:39:15 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:39:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Sep 4, 2004, at 7:10 AM, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > but all bets are not about nanotech. > >> Or am I missing something? >> > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > of places. but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I > always thought that was the main obstacle. Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big technology players already in the the existing markets, so that anybody can invest in the technologies they want already? -- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 4 16:44:35 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 17:44:35 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Sep 2004 11:33:06 -0400, Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > The freebie version of Eudora downloads advertisements constantly while > you are using it. i think the higher network interrupts are > interfering with your keystrokes if you type too fast. You might try > unplugging your network cable to see if the typing improves. I know > this isn't a solution, but it would test my theory. This is one of the > reasons I hate adware, because it interferes with what you really want > the computer to be doing. > You could move most of your high-volume email to google by opening a gmail account. Then use your browser (Mozilla, of course) to read and respond to gmails. And use Mozilla mail for the emails that you want to store on your own pc. Most people save megabytes of disk space by moving to gmail. And you can access it from anywhere. Best wishes, BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 4 17:06:22 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:06:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Clark Kent's Daily Planet computer Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040904120539.01bd91e8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> ...might look like this: http://www.mini-itx.com/projects/underwood/ Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 17:29:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <059501c49232$0c0068b0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040904172952.18715.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > But the newsers have acted very irresponsibly. Of course they have. They are NOT public services, despite what they claim and the sheeple think. They are profit centers. > The fleeing > proles have evidently failed to calculate the range of their > Detroits and failed to adequately plan what they would do > at the end of that fuel tank. (These soldiers will never > make general. I hope.) With inadequate fuel and food aboard, > now there are dead conveyances everywhere along I95 and I75, > the two major arteries out of Florida, filled with panicked > proles, frantically searching for fuel, food and water. Well > fer crying the hell out loud! They have put themselves in > greater danger than if they would just sit tight at home. Lemmings. Of course, few of them, if any, had prepared for such eventualities despite living their lives in hurricane alley. No gasoline stockpiles in the garage, durable food supplies or potable water. People were apparently pissed about Charley too, they were told, depending on their community, to either evacuate to locations that wound up in the path of the storm, or they were not adequately warned and they wound up bearing the brunt. > They keep saying there is a mandatory evacuation, but of > course no one has the authority to make you leave your > home. Its *your* home. The CEO of my company told me he got a statement from the Chief of Police of Palm Beach, who apparently has tried to declare a state of emergency (under what authority did he do that?), and has banned the sale or display of guns or ammunition by retail establishments and banned the stockpiling of ammo and the bearing of firearms in Palm Beach for the duration. I hope he gets his career handed to him next city council meeting. People should be outraged. The boss has ignored the evacuation and is holed up at the office without power and armed to the gills, as some squirrelly characters were scoping out the industrial area he is in. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 17:37:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 10:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040904173738.10465.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > > Honestly folks, it isn't the apocalyse, its just a storm. > > Sure there will be some roof damage here and there, stuff > > may fly around. But in most cases you are safer in your > > sturdy home with adequate supplies, than on some clogged > > freeway filled with panicky and sleepy yahoos creeping to > > the north. Floridians, stand your ground! > > Spike, trees are already down in my home town of Melbourne now. They > are predicting sustained winds of over 100 MPH for over 24 hours. Did > you see the pictures from hurricane Charley? There are foundations > with no houses on them. Forget mobile home parks which are totally > gone now, I am talking about real structures that are not there > anymore. People cannot weather the storm in such structures. This > is how those 20 people died and hundreds were injured, trying to stay > home. Well, Melbourne is certainly getting the brunt end of things here. Hope your home makes it through, Harvey. Frances is currently holding at max winds of 105 mph at the eyewall. Gusts that high are occuring as far as 100 miles away from the eye, but sustained winds by landfall should be 73 mph, at about 4-5 am tomorrow. Nowhere near Andrew strength. They are now predicting a storm surge of only 6 feet and rain of 8-20 inches across Florida. The shuttles should make it through okay unless something freakish happens. Wind speeds at Palm Beach are currently only 30-45 mph. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sat Sep 4 19:50:33 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 15:50:33 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <20040904173738.10465.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040904173738.10465.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 4, 2004, at 1:37 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Well, Melbourne is certainly getting the brunt end of things here. Hope > your home makes it through, Harvey. Thanks. The storm has greatly deteriorated from close to category 5 down to category 2. If it doesn't regenerate, everything should be fine. It is stalling over the warmest part of the gulf stream, which is the best recipe for strengthening. So it's still unpredictable, but I am guessing that it will not strengthen much. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP, ISSAP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From kpj at sics.se Sat Sep 4 20:10:12 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Sat, 04 Sep 2004 22:10:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] F2F (was: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? ) In-Reply-To: Message from Zero Powers of "Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:51:53 PDT." <7a32170504090400511b20010f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200409042010.i84KACo15780@r2d2.sics.se> Zero Powers : | |But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our |technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for |years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail |them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the |phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But |F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. In my experience, people who meet each other F2F (and who do not start to hate each other) tend to later allow each other to be more of a nuisance than people who have never met. For interactions with a system of rules, like law or business, this may not become essential but in an informal setting, like a mailing list or the like, people who have been charming F2F tend to get better treatment than somebody who people have never met F2F. Your mileage may vary. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Sep 4 20:32:17 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:32:17 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] wtf? a Eudora problem In-Reply-To: References: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> <20040903210826.44758.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040903161553.01b3ab80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <7a3217050409040016169af92b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040904203217.GL1458@leitl.org> On Sat, Sep 04, 2004 at 05:44:35PM +0100, BillK wrote: > You could move most of your high-volume email to google by opening a > gmail account. Then use your browser (Mozilla, of course) to read and This sounds like a bad idea. 1 GByte is not much to start with -- right now my inbox is 0.7 GBytes. It's less than a year old, and I tend to delete spam and messages with large attachements. Plus, there's no POP3/IMAP, no ways to import your existing mail (nevermind the privacy issues), and no guarantee for data loss. > respond to gmails. > And use Mozilla mail for the emails that you want to store on your own pc. Mmh, no. Mozilla can't handle the volume, and has terrible UI. Dog slow. > Most people save megabytes of disk space by moving to gmail. And you Why should I want to save anything? Storage is essentially free. You just have to remember which hard drive on which computer, and crossmirror regularly (still haven't built the TByte RAID yet). > can access it from anywhere. I can access my computers from anywhere just fine. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 23:29:50 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:29:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] F2F (was: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? ) In-Reply-To: <200409042010.i84KACo15780@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040904232950.68521.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- KPJ wrote: > Zero Powers : > | > |But for casual friendships and even business relationships, our > |technology is up to the task. In my business I've had clients for > |years that I've never met. They mail me a file, I do my work, mail > |them a bill and they send me a check. I've talked to them on the > |phone, corresponded through the mail and increasingly by email. But > |F2F? For a handful of my clients, never. > > In my experience, people who meet each other F2F (and who do not > start > to hate each other) tend to later allow each other to be more of a > nuisance > than people who have never met. I have to agree here. I'm getting more involved in my new job at 1-800-serve-em.com and it's a pretty slick system we have here (it runs on a proprietary database applet server called World View our owner developed). We generally never meet any of our clients or our subcontractors, and of course if I ever meet someone who is a target of our civil process services and is seeking us out, I hope I'm armed. Outside of phone calls, faxes, and emails, we almost never meet anybody we do business with. People hire us via fax or email without ever calling, they pay us via faxed check or credit card, and receive our services quickly and without any other communication if their target is not difficult to find. Now, anonymous transactions in this business are necessarily impossible, since it is in the civil process service, and the plaintiff and defendant generally always know each other to some degree, but if we do our job right, with law firm on one side and local process server on the other, we are the anonymous man in the middle that the parties on either end never hear about. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 4 23:37:06 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 16:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] F2F (was: Are the developed nations fleeing into virtualreality? ) In-Reply-To: <200409042010.i84KACo15780@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040904233706.40599.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> WRT my previous post: my company HQ is currently in West Palm Beach, and thanks to Hurricane Frances, is suffering a power outage, all the computers are packed away, windows boarded up, and the front door is getting sucked off its hinges. You'd think we would be paralyzed, if not finished, right? Nah, the server is in a vault in Miami, and I'm the lucky guy who just opened our first branch office in New Hampshire, so all the boss had to do was forward all calls to my location here at Manchester International Airport and I've been flying the company solo for the last 48 hours (the office is so new our T-1 isn't in until Tuesday, I've been running things with two phone lines and a dial-up account). Outside of an inability of some customers to reach other employees or the owner, we are still open for business and making money. Ask me if I'm tired.... ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 5 00:53:06 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 10:53:06 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> Message-ID: <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > On Sep 4, 2004, at 7:10 AM, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > > > but all bets are not about nanotech. > > > >> Or am I missing something? > >> > > you are probably missing the fact that a public idea futures playing > > with real money would be considered gambling without a license in lots > > of places. but i thought you were the lawyer, so you can tell me. I > > always thought that was the main obstacle. > > Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big > technology players already in the the existing markets, so that anybody > can invest in the technologies they want already? I like transhumanist groups for their optimism but find them infuriating and ultimately disappointing for their lack of pragmatism. I have the same problem with religious believers. As people most believers are very human and very likeable, as planners and investors and fashioners of better futures though, people who have too much of the vision and hope thing and not enough practicality are massive wasters of their own time, of other peoples time and most importantly to me of my time. If it was possible to bet against some transhumanists who make wild technological claims then their would be a way of winnowing out those that know what they are talking about from those that don't. The scientists would stand out from the pseudoscientists. There would be a financial reason to correct other peoples homework and give a blow by blow of the errors in it. Without a financial reason there is little reason to take the trouble of exposing thoroughgoing crap as crap. One is perceived as being purely negative rather than of providing a service. And yet it is a service to criticise ideas that cannot possible succeed because it frees up resources and energy that otherwise would have been wasted to be deployed into more promising areas. Any transhumanist that makes a radical claim for technology that is based on genuinely better understanding should be able to bet against someone that is a sceptic and expect to win the bet. If they are right and do win then they achieve two things a) they have additional funds for pursuing and implementing their idea and b) they have pursuaded the sceptic. If they are wrong then they may be embarassed into shutting the hell up and they'd have to creep off and lick their wounds for a while, which would be a good thing for encouraging critical thought in the rest. I think that the truth is that most people have both good and bad ideas in them and noble and ignoble traits. Making bets (investing real money) against others that disagree with you can focus the critical faculties around the subject of the bet. Cryonics and molecular nanotechnology will not be developed at all unless there are a series of practical milestones achieved along the way to the ultimate goal. The very fact that cryonicists and molecular nanotechnologists are in a minority means that most of the betters would be betting against them in an open market and so if they are right they could clean up and fund their research and convert those that would bet against them. Perhaps the same is true for those who are trying to develop some forms of AI. Over time I think a market or public betting system would make transhumanists make more realistic plans. Those more practical would acquire the wealth of those less practical. Those who didn't want to bet wouldn't have to but they could still learn by watching. What would emerge would be a sort of meritocracy of anlaytical and practical skill but specifically in the area of technologies that are of interest to transhumanists. Transhumanism would be better and more effective for seeing off some of the uncritical pseudoscientific beliefs. A good way to tell what is real and what is not is give those with opposing views the opportunity to benefit from being right. Brett Paatsch From mail at harveynewstrom.com Sun Sep 5 01:16:16 2004 From: mail at harveynewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:16:16 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? In-Reply-To: <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <2FB0ECD4-FED9-11D8-94FE-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> On Sep 4, 2004, at 8:53 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Harvey Newstrom wrote: > >> Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big >> technology players already in the the existing markets, so that >> anybody >> can invest in the technologies they want already? > > If it was possible to bet against some transhumanists who make wild > technological claims then their would be a way of winnowing out those > that know what they are talking about from those that don't. The > scientists > would stand out from the pseudoscientists. [....] I wish. But I think you misunderstood my question. I know why you want a market. What I am asking is what's wrong with the markets that already exist. Why can't we use those markets to invest in technology and test our theories? Why do we need a new market, and what would make it different? -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP, ISSAP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From live2scan at bellsouth.net Sun Sep 5 04:32:35 2004 From: live2scan at bellsouth.net (Dennis Roberts) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 21:32:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] National Cancer Institute - Nanotechnology Message-ID: <001401c49301$5e1a5190$6101a8c0@dennis45d1tptn> The more health oriented might be interested in this 'cast, I'm going to try to be there(web-wise anyway). http://nano.cancer.gov/nano_highlights_webcast-details.asp Dennis Roberts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 5 02:36:06 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:36:06 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Why bet only imaginary money? References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <1094281114.24982.83.camel@alito.homeip.net> <018601c49255$067df510$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094288620.24982.98.camel@alito.homeip.net> <01b801c49263$a4d5d030$ec202dcb@homepc> <1094296240.1579.106.camel@alito.homeip.net> <9386AABA-FE88-11D8-AFC8-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> <02db01c492e2$b4fd4d60$ec202dcb@homepc> <2FB0ECD4-FED9-11D8-94FE-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> Message-ID: <030601c492f1$18a64520$ec202dcb@homepc> Harvey Newstrom wrote: > On Sep 4, 2004, at 8:53 PM, Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > Harvey Newstrom wrote: > > > >> Why do people want a futures market anyway? Aren't all the big > >> technology players already in the the existing markets, so that > >> anybody can invest in the technologies they want already? > > > > If it was possible to bet against some transhumanists who make wild > > technological claims then their would be a way of winnowing out those > > that know what they are talking about from those that don't. The > > scientists would stand out from the pseudoscientists. > [....] > > I wish. > > But I think you misunderstood my question. I know why you want a > market. What I am asking is what's wrong with the markets that already > exist. Why can't we use those markets to invest in technology and test > our theories? Why do we need a new market, and what would make it > different? On what futures market could I invest *against* the viability of cryonics, or *against* the Drexlerian vision of molecular nanotech, or *against* the possibility of friendly AI. So far as I can tell the people who are *for* these things don't have any money to bet with. Many of these things to me stand out as laudable understandable human reactions against particular worldviews. I can like and relate to the sort of person who wants cryonics to succeed, who wants to have genie machines that liberate all people from hard work and from having to compete for resources, I can warm to the sensitivity of someone that wants higher forms of justice and better clearer more humane management by friendly AI, but these folk are too hard to effectively constructively criticise because they remove themselves from effective criticism by making all critics criticise them for free. Its sort of like religious believers who will only take criticism from their friends who have to swear an oath of believing to qualify. Good criticism is hard time consuming work, pulling apart illusions that emotionally one would rather share is disillusioning. I want to be compensated for doing it. Betting is a way of getting compensation entirely on the basis of results. And if you fail, if your judgement is wrong, then the people you reward, you want to reward, they deserve it. Not a cent is wasted on paying useless middlemen who don't exercise any judgement or take any real risk or even dare to have much vision. If there was a market on which some goals along the pathways to these things were put out as hypotheses or futures contracts it would be possible for me to bet *against* what seem to me to be impractical approaches to improving the human condition (including my own condition) and if I was wrong in better on the pessimistic side I'd be pleased to pay up. Its like a hedging strategy. I'd have bought optimism that was rationally compatible. You pit your head against your heart and when you head wins and your heart looses you at least walk away richer. Then your better resourced for next time. But when you bet against an optimist part of you hopes to lose because if you do lose you have to lose not to a better heart but to a better head. When you lose to a better head, you learn. I have only a rough understanding of what futures markets are available in the US. I suspect I could probably put together a pretty good portfolio of tech stocks and if I was willing to watch it closely enough I could probably outperform the market. I don't say this egotistically, I have tried this (though not specifically with tech stocks) specifically in Australian (in 1991) and in a single year I made a paper profit of 100%. I think I actually had a method and that it was not luck. But it was boring. It was boring because I didn't care about the stocks. I actually wanted to build something and to do something with life not to just make money out-thinking other people in stupid zero sum games in what seemed like a stale stupid and unimaginative world. None of the stocks that I could invest in in Australia in 1991 were actively pursuing what I wanted to pursue which was radical life extension tech. I wanted to make or encourage the creation of the sort of businesses that would make the sort of products that I would want to buy. The reason that I'd be keen to bet against some of the techs that transhumanists believe in is because I have spent a good bit of time investigating some of them pretty deeply and I think I know why they won't work. I want the sort of folks I like - tech savy humanists to do well in the world and to prosper - and I think they will do that better if they get a bit more practical. Brett Paatsch From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 05:51:13 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 22:51:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <061001c4930c$5a8eb8d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Harvey Newstrom > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances ... > > Spike, trees are already down in my home town of Melbourne now. They > are predicting sustained winds of over 100 MPH for over 24 > hours. Did you see the pictures from hurricane Charley?... I did, and that is a perfect introduction to my point. Some Floridians live in storm surge areas, in tar paper shacks, in mobile homes. Sure these guys need to get the hailllll outta Dodge. But most Floridians need to assess their positions in a sober logical way. Most Floridians live in sturdy cinder block houses with steel truss anchors and foundation bolts. They built them that way because they live in hurricane country. My beef is that the governments and news made people think they were *legally required* to leave their homes, MANDATORY evacuation and so forth. I say to hell with that. If I build my home to stand against a hurricane, then I intend to STAY IN IT, and I don't care what the local constabulary says. You may recall my rant against requiring smoke detectors. This situation is a little like that. As they are installed, on the ceilings, smoke detectors have batteries in them that run out after a couple years, then they start to chirp, the battery must be replaced, even if it is in the middle of the night, by climbing upon a ladder or other structure. If the homeowner is in any one of the following categories {elderly, clumsy, stoned, sleepy, drunk, sick, epileptic, cocky, weak, blind or stupid (and who among us has never been in one or more of these categories at some time?)} then the law has introduced more risk to that homeowner than they would have had with no smoke detectors at all, particularly if the homeowner doesn't smoke! In the storm sitch, many if not most Floridians are living in damn sturdy houses, with all the trees trimmed and all the debris carefully picked up. To order these people out onto the freeway where there may or may not be adequate fuel, water, food and medical supplies on the route, is silly and dangerous. It introduces more risk than the storm. Nowthen, to sharpen my criticism of the news media and to offer a solution, please read on. The news agencies create the illusion of greater destruction than is actually the case. They need to, thats the nature of the business. They must show images of a structure that has blown over, a devastated trailer park, those dramatic videos of blowing palm trees. But the majority of homes come thru with little damage, perhaps a broken window here or a few shingles torn off there, an aluminum awning that lands somewhere in the next county, nothing serious. Remember the earthquake of 89? Did you watch the news that time? Didn't they make it look like the whole San Francisco Bay was on fire? My poor parents, they already have bad nerves. But the damage was fairly localized, with the rest of us suffering only minor damage. Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house. Then when an earthquake hits or a storm comes, everyone can log on and take a *random survey* of the local homes. In 89, the ExIers could have quickly learned that over 99% homes stood up fine, a broken window here, a masonry crack there, most homes suffering no damage. The news artificially concentrates the damage scenes, making look a lot worse than it really is. A random walk thru neighborhood videos might have you searching for hours before one found *any* earthquake damage, and I suspect the same for serious hurricane damage. Right now *most of those evacuated Florida neighborhoods* are doing just fine, and heres the worst part for those who fled: they have a few neighbors who calmly assessed their risks, and decided to board up the windows, picked up the plastic lawn flamingos, set in a few days supplies, told the sheriff to go to mind his own business. Those people are having the time of their lives! They may have holed up with their sweethearts, they're in there in the dark playing strip twister, trying for the world record in olympic copulation, or whatever. They're riding out that storm, doing all those things they did when they first met but are now usually too busy or too distracted to do. No TV, no internet, no video games, not a single luxury. Like Robinson Caruso, it's primitive as can be. Wouldn't you like to do that for a couple days? I would. I urge people to look around at their house and think. In many cases the right answer is STAND FIRM soldier! Hold your ground. Thats what both sets of my parents decided to do, not far from Melbourne. I don't like to think of them down there playing naked twister (ewww), but I wouldn't be at all surprised if that is what they are doing right this minute, as Frances rages outside. spike From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 07:06:11 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 09:06:11 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances Message-ID: Spike: >Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam >in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house. >Then when an earthquake hits or a storm comes, everyone can >log on and take a *random survey* of the local homes. >In 89, the ExIers could have quickly learned that over 99% >homes stood up fine, a broken window here, a masonry crack >there, most homes suffering no damage. I wonder where was your home, Spike, because mine had no electricity for about 24 hours during the '89 earthquake. I (and my neighbors) were in the middle of suburban Cupertino. Makes it difficult to set up a web cam, no? Driving in to make a survey: the freeways were blocked off in many places. (and the electrical outage caused streetlights to be off). OK, bicycles and legs still worked. Flying in to make a survey: not possible either because San Jose Airport was closed (I know because I was supposed to fly out to Arizona early the next morning for an astronomy observing trip, and the flight was delayed) while the runways were inspected for damage. Minor damage, I agree, yes, but I was cleaning up the glass in my kitchen for days, and I lost a few irreplaceable pieces in the living room when the bookcases bounced a few feet, and my Mac Plus, when it fell over, displayed the cracks in the case for the rest of its life. >A random walk thru neighborhood videos might >have you searching for hours before one found *any* earthquake >damage, and I suspect the same for serious hurricane damage. well........ Amara From benboc at lineone.net Sun Sep 5 14:01:19 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:01:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [extropy-chat Digest] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <200409041016.i84AGY016607@tick.javien.com> References: <200409041016.i84AGY016607@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <413B1C2F.6040301@lineone.net> Samantha said: > Is a sim perhaps what happens when a sufficiently powerful mind > ruminates over the past and possible different branch points? Well, seeing as we are constantly making models of the world, including other people, in our puny minds, i think that is almost certain to be true! I had never thought of it this way before, always imagining the 'sim' argument to apply to something like the equivalent of somebody playing a computer game, or doing some lab work. Now it occurs to me that we are just somebody's daydream! (which, ironically, would make the god-squad correct in a lot of their beliefs) ... can you hear the sound of collapsing nested realities, as some superbeing rouses itself from an idle daydream, to go and do some real work? ben From hibbert at mydruthers.com Sun Sep 5 17:51:15 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 10:51:15 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradio signal from alien) In-Reply-To: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413B5213.2050300@mydruthers.com> > Wait a minute, its coming back to me now. We have been > over this ground before. Either that or I am having > deja vu, that strange feeling you sometimz get... > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > it hasn't already been done. We concluded at the time, > about 4 yrs ago, that someone somewhere was already > running a real money IFX. Then one of our absent ExIers > posted me offlist asking if I wanted to join a real > money IFX. I was busy with a graduate class at the time > so I declined, and never got back with it. > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > thanks. I helped run a real money Idea Futures market for members of the Foresight Institute that ran for a couple of years several years ago. The hard part is deciding in what manner you are going to attempt not be too visible to some overzealous politician or prosecutor. The main problem isn't that it's clearly illegal, the problem is that it's not clearly legal. It doesn't matter if it's inside a private organization: if you allow it to be visible, then a prosecutor can go after you if he wants, and he gets to use taxpayer funds, while you have to defend yourself at your own expense. There are local laws all over the US that make gambling illegal, and for the most part, they're broadly written. The only safe approach is to not attract the attention of those who might benefit from starting a prosecution. I think there are good arguments why a well-run IF market wouldn't cause the kind of social ills that make detractors want to shut down all gambling (or all gambling that competes with state-sanctioned gambling) but it appears to take more than that to convince people with money that it's a safe investment. The Foresight IF market was shut down when Foresight hired a new Executive Director (since departed) who wanted to get everything ship-shape and have a serious audit. He couldn't figure out how to categorize the money they were holding for the IF market so it wouldn't raise questions with the accountants, so he asked us to shut it down. Chris -- Currently reading: Mancur Olson, The Logic of Collective Action On my Clie: Alexandar Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Sep 5 18:42:09 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 13:42:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040428/04 Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers. Fearing the measure will pave the way for creationist teaching, more than 40,000 citizens-and the number is still increasing-have subscribed a petition launched last week by some of the country's top scientists through the daily La Repubblica. The document, signed by Nobel laureates Rita Levi Montalcini and Renato Dulbecco, together with scientists including Luca Cavalli Sforza, Bruno Dallapiccola, and Alberto Piazza, urges Moratti to "review the secondary schools programs and to rectify an oversight which is detrimental to the scientific culture of future generations." "Ignoring the theory of evolution is a cultural limitation sacrificing the scientific curiosity of youth. It's unquestionably fair to point out that Darwinism and the theories that derived from it show gaps and unsolved problems, but the link between the past and the present of mankind shouldn't be completely ignored," write the scientists. The Italian school system, which Moratti aims to reform shortly, is divided into three levels: primary school ("scuola elementare"), which lasts 5 years, from 6 to 11 years of age, secondary school ("scuola media"), which lasts 3 years, and high school ("scuola superiore"), which lasts 5 years. Established by legislative decree on February 19, the new teaching programs for secondary schools make no mention of the history of human evolution, nor of the relationship between mankind and other species. As a result, boys and girls aged 12 to 14 will have no idea of subjects such as "Structure, Function, and Evolution of Living Organisms" and "The Biological and Cultural Evolution of Mankind," said the scientists who launched the petition. From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Sun Sep 5 18:57:57 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 20:57:57 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: This news is a bit old (as you can see on the article, dated april 28). Thanks to the massive backslash, the no-evolution plan has been cancelled, like almost everything proposed so far by Moratti since she become minister of education. She's the most idiotic education minister ever seen, and is widely disliked in ALL italian schools. Alfio On Sun, 5 Sep 2004, Damien Broderick wrote: > >http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040428/04 > >Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan >by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, >to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers. > >Fearing the measure will pave the way for creationist teaching, more than >40,000 citizens-and the number is still increasing-have subscribed a >petition launched last week by some of the country's top scientists through >the daily La Repubblica. > >The document, signed by Nobel laureates Rita Levi Montalcini and Renato >Dulbecco, together with scientists including Luca Cavalli Sforza, Bruno >Dallapiccola, and Alberto Piazza, urges Moratti to "review the secondary >schools programs and to rectify an oversight which is detrimental to the >scientific culture of future generations." > >"Ignoring the theory of evolution is a cultural limitation sacrificing the >scientific curiosity of youth. It's unquestionably fair to point out that >Darwinism and the theories that derived from it show gaps and unsolved >problems, but the link between the past and the present of mankind shouldn't >be completely ignored," write the scientists. > >The Italian school system, which Moratti aims to reform shortly, is divided >into three levels: primary school ("scuola elementare"), which lasts 5 >years, from 6 to 11 years of age, secondary school ("scuola media"), which >lasts 3 years, and high school ("scuola superiore"), which lasts 5 years. > >Established by legislative decree on February 19, the new teaching programs >for secondary schools make no mention of the history of human evolution, nor >of the relationship between mankind and other species. > >As a result, boys and girls aged 12 to 14 will have no idea of subjects such >as "Structure, Function, and Evolution of Living Organisms" and "The >Biological and Cultural Evolution of Mankind," said the scientists who >launched the petition. > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 19:23:19 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:23:19 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <062101c4937d$cf368bb0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Amara Graps > Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances > > > Spike: > >Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam > >in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house... > > I wonder where was your home, Spike, because mine had no electricity > for about 24 hours during the '89 earthquake. I (and my neighbors) > were in the middle of suburban Cupertino. Makes it difficult to set > up a web cam, no? Oops you are right. I was without power for almost a day. We would hafta set these things to run on battery power for a while. > Minor damage, I agree, yes, but I was cleaning up the glass in my > kitchen for days, and I lost a few irreplaceable pieces in the > living room when the bookcases bounced a few feet, and my Mac Plus, > when it fell over, displayed the cracks in the case for the rest of > its life. Ja me too. My bookselves fell over on top of my two-week new MacSE30. Didn't damage the machine, but scuffed the case. I'll tell you, that machine was such a beauty: Motorola 68030 processor, screaming along at an unimaginable 8 megaHertz, memory upgraded to a full MEGABYTE of RAM (oh my goodness) and a 40 Mb hard disk! Paid more for that machine than a new subcompact car, but ooohhh boy, was I ever in the big leagues. The Vic20 I had been using was a joke in comparison to that. Of course the Vic20 was a joke compared to anything, but still. I see your point: we would need battery power to set up a random damage assessment system. spike From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 5 19:28:32 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:28:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanoscale LED's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040905192832.79588.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> Extropes, I've never waivered in my belief that the tech revolution is the real deal, driven by the ever-accelerating pace of tech research-slash-discovery-slash-application. While I agree with Harvey that the expanse of new possible knowledge--the previously unknown now partly seen out of the mists of Maya--is vast, yet it is a challenge not so much from accessibility as from the hugeness of the task... of exploration. It is a vast "orchard" to be sure, but an orchard of "low hanging fruit". A vast job of easy pickins for a world soon to be 'enhanced' by an equally vast emerging multitude of Chinese and Indian techies. Yeah, baby! Bring it on. Nanocrystals Spark Efficient LEDs http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/09/rnb_090204.asp?trk=nl ...The light-emitting diodes can be as small as a few nanometers in diameter... ...The nanoscale lights use very little power and can be made in different colors ***simply***[my emphasis] by varying the sizes of the nanocrystals. ... ...Nanocrystals are easy to manufacture, durable, and are very efficient light emitters. ... Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Sun Sep 5 19:30:52 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 21:30:52 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: [extropy-chat Digest] Timeshifting In-Reply-To: <413B1C2F.6040301@lineone.net> References: <200409041016.i84AGY016607@tick.javien.com> <413B1C2F.6040301@lineone.net> Message-ID: <20040905193052.GB1458@leitl.org> On Sun, Sep 05, 2004 at 03:01:19PM +0100, ben wrote: > Well, seeing as we are constantly making models of the world, including > other people, in our puny minds, i think that is almost certain to be true! You think, and therefore others are saved. If others think, maybe you're saved, too? Mutual modelling fund! Jesus saves!!1 I think advanced aliens/$DEITY are thinking it, and therefore you might have been saved already!!! Or is it simulating? Nevermind. I can FEEL it. Halelluja! Welcome to the Universal Church of Simulation Argument! > I had never thought of it this way before, always imagining the 'sim' > argument to apply to something like the equivalent of somebody playing a > computer game, or doing some lab work. > Now it occurs to me that we are just somebody's daydream! (which, > ironically, would make the god-squad correct in a lot of their beliefs) Leave the religion part to the establishement. They do it much better, having quite a routine by now. > ... can you hear the sound of collapsing nested realities, as some > superbeing rouses itself from an idle daydream, to go and do some real work? That's the right cue. How about some real work, indeed? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 5 19:37:04 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:37:04 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradiosignal from alien) In-Reply-To: <413B5213.2050300@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <062201c4937f$bc8db630$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Chris Hibbert > Subject: Re: Why bet only imaginary money? > > > Wait a minute, its coming back to me now...Either that or I am having > > deja vu, that strange feeling you someti...mz get... > > > > This is such an obvious idea, it is inconceivable that > > it hasn't already been done. > > > > Whoever is running a real money IFX or knows who is doing > > so, please contact Brett offline and invite him to join, > > thanks. > > I helped run a real money Idea Futures market for members of the > Foresight Institute that ran for a couple of years several years ago... > The Foresight IF market was shut down when Foresight hired a new > Executive Director... Chris OK I recall now that several years ago there was a meme on play money IFX that someone would invent a real money IFX. The price went up until I noticed it had been retired at true. I never heard who was running it. My memory of that had gone dim. Growing old is hell. But now that I think about it, the opposite, aging in reverse, might be bad too: you would forget the stuff that you learned as you grew older. You would get less wise, would become poorer in most cases, and I can imagine going thru puberty in reverse would be a major letdown. spike From hibbert at mydruthers.com Sun Sep 5 21:54:26 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 14:54:26 -0700 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradiosignal from alien) In-Reply-To: <062201c4937f$bc8db630$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <062201c4937f$bc8db630$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413B8B12.4020107@mydruthers.com> > OK I recall now that several years ago there was a meme > on play money IFX that someone would invent a real money > IFX. The price went up until I noticed it had been > retired at true. I never heard who was running it. > My memory of that had gone dim. Growing old is > hell. But now that I think about it, the opposite, > aging in reverse, might be bad too: you would forget > the stuff that you learned as you grew older. You would > get less wise, would become poorer in most cases, and I can > imagine going thru puberty in reverse would be a > major letdown. Growing old is indeed hell. You *have* forgotten the stuff you once might have known. The claim $vIF ("Real money version of Idea Futures before 1/1/2000") closed at 0. There were no publicly accessible versions of Idea Futures at the time the claim closed. http://www.ideosphere.com/fx-bin/Claim?claim=$vIF There are now several gambling sites using the IF ideas, but they mostly offer the opportunity to bet on sports or election claims. Nothing futuristic, and nothing long term. Chris -- Currently reading: Mancur Olson, The Logic of Collective Action On my Clie: Alexandar Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:12:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:12:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Spider Bites Message-ID: Until today, I have never been bitten by a spider. As soon as it happened, I began to search for the proper treatment. What I found was very disappointing. Apparently, our technology is still at such a low level that we don;t even have a treatment for spider bites. Nothing has been developed to counter the venom of any of the spiders that could have been the cause of the bite. The tretments consist of making sure I don;t apply heat because this increases tissue damage, not applying topical steroids, keeping ice on it to ease the pain and swelling, possibly taking antihistamines to reduce itching, and taking ibuprofen for pain. Other than that, I simply have to ride it out. Whatever damage is going to occur to the skin over the next several days is pretty much inevitable. All I can do is try to prevent secondary infection. Singularity seems awfully far away at a time like this. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:05:15 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 01:05:15 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] amara@amara.com Message-ID: Alfio: >This news is a bit old (as you can see on the article, dated april 28). >Thanks to the massive backslash, the no-evolution plan has been cancelled, >like almost everything proposed so far by Moratti since she become >minister of education. She's the most idiotic education minister ever >seen, and is widely disliked in ALL italian schools. Not only education. Her complete title is "Minister for Education, and Universities and Scientific Research". http://www.governo.it/Governo/Biografie/moratti_letizia_eng.html >From what I've observed at my work, she is loathed in the scientific research areas as well. How did a person who has absolutely no experience in science and research earn that position of Minister? It makes me very depressed about Italy. Amara From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:09:20 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 01:09:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians Message-ID: (sorry for the bad headers previously) Alfio: >This news is a bit old (as you can see on the article, dated april 28). >Thanks to the massive backslash, the no-evolution plan has been cancelled, >like almost everything proposed so far by Moratti since she become >minister of education. She's the most idiotic education minister ever >seen, and is widely disliked in ALL italian schools. Not only education. Her complete title is "Minister for Education, and Universities and Scientific Research". http://www.governo.it/Governo/Biografie/moratti_letizia_eng.html >From what I've observed at my work, she is loathed in the scientific research areas as well. How did a person who has absolutely no experience in science and research earn that position of Minister? It makes me very depressed about Italy. Amara From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sun Sep 5 23:43:29 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 09:13:29 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] The most "dangerous" idea In-Reply-To: <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> References: <20040902210808.12443.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> <4E777FF4-FDE3-11D8-9DD4-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040905164342d715bc@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:56:12 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Sep 2, 2004, at 2:08 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> Us vs Them develops when there are such difference > >> between the groups > >> that there is little mutual understanding and when > >> there are > >> conflicting needs or agendas. One such conflict is > >> when one or both > >> groups sees the other as a threat that must be > >> eliminated. > > > > *nods* Not saying this won't happen. Just that it > > need not always happen - like, say, by trying to > > develop mutual understanding or find ways to make the > > needs/agendas not conflict, before resorting to > > destroying the other group. > > What if one group develops and willingly uses such enhancements that > the group without them is no more capable of understanding them than a > ant is capable of understanding a human? > I would hope that we wont get such huge discontinuities, without also having intermediate groups who can facilitate communication between entities at each extreme. Something very important in this for us is to promote the concept of respecting each other, no matter our (chosen) difference. The kinds of problems we can get from lack of communication are primarily based in the entities not respecting each other, and not trying to empathise with each other. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Sep 6 00:11:12 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:11:12 +1000 Subject: Why bet only imaginary money? (wasRe:[extropy-chat]SETI:Firstradiosignal from alien) References: <05aa01c49246$65cfa6d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <413B5213.2050300@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <03ce01c493a6$047c3680$ec202dcb@homepc> Chris Hibbert wrote: > I helped run a real money Idea Futures market for members > of the Foresight Institute that ran for a couple of years several > years ago. Good on you for trying anyway. > The hard part is deciding in what manner you are > going to attempt not be too visible to some overzealous politician > or prosecutor. This seems like the wrong way to look at the problem to me. >The main problem isn't that it's clearly illegal, the problem is that > it's not clearly legal. If a person doesn't do something because it might be illegal but they are not sure then they may not do anything. None of us are born knowing the laws of our land - some of us try to understand them because they make up the environment in which we are going to have to live. I am not advocating lawbreaking, but I would advocate finding out what the law actually is. > It doesn't matter if it's inside a private organization: > if you allow it to be visible, then a prosecutor can go after you if he > wants, and he gets to use taxpayer funds, while you have to defend > yourself at your own expense. Lets say that's true. Are you talking federal prosecutor or state prosecutor? Why would they want - where is the upside for them ? If the organisation holding and/or processing the bets infrastructure or legal office was in say Switzerland then would would "the prosecutor" in the US state or federal be able to go after it? I suspect not but I'm not an expert. > There are local laws all over the US that make gambling illegal, and > for the most part, they're broadly written. Thats not surprising. > The only safe approach > is to not attract the attention of those who might benefit from starting > a prosecution. I couldn't disagree more strongly. The sensible approach to me looks to be more to work out ways of doing it in serious scale. So that the organisation has financial credibility and so that law firms and lawyers who might be inclined to work pro bono or for the professional kudo would be interested in working against vexatious legal costs leveraging. > ... He couldn't figure out how to > categorize the money they were holding for the IF market so it wouldn't > raise questions with the accountants, so he asked us to shut it down. This makes accountants and lawyers sound a bit like priests and magicians to be feared by mere mortals for the black arts they practice. Surely a knowledge of law and/or a capacity to balance books and work with numbers doesn't automatically preclude a person from being interested in making money out of technology related futures. Brett Paatsch From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 00:47:14 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:17:14 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Spider Bites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <710b78fc040905174729c053ee@mail.gmail.com> We have some decent antivenom treatments in Australia, but then the spiders are a bit more problematic. Funnelweb spiders can ruin your whole day. Redbacks aren't much fun either. http://www.avru.unimelb.edu.au/avruweb/spiderfa.htm#funnel%20webs -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Freels Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 18:12:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Spider Bites To: ExI chat list Until today, I have never been bitten by a spider. As soon as it happened, I began to search for the proper treatment. What I found was very disappointing. Apparently, our technology is still at such a low level that we don;t even have a treatment for spider bites. Nothing has been developed to counter the venom of any of the spiders that could have been the cause of the bite. The tretments consist of making sure I don;t apply heat because this increases tissue damage, not applying topical steroids, keeping ice on it to ease the pain and swelling, possibly taking antihistamines to reduce itching, and taking ibuprofen for pain. Other than that, I simply have to ride it out. Whatever damage is going to occur to the skin over the next several days is pretty much inevitable. All I can do is try to prevent secondary infection. Singularity seems awfully far away at a time like this. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 02:57:06 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> I have some too. Email me if you want one. -s On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > would like one. > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 03:46:16 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:16:16 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> I've got more too (feel free to ask!). I think it's safe to say that nowadays, if you want an invite you can get one. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > -s > > > > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > would like one. > > > > - Jef > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 6 04:30:37 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 14:00:37 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Advice needed about IP Message-ID: <710b78fc040905213072053d64@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I need a bit of advice (privately) about IP, particularly with regards to logos / brand names. Anyone who has had some useful experience or has some knowledge of this, especially regarding the US, I'd be grateful if you'd email me privately, and I'll outline my problem. Thanks! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From scerir at libero.it Mon Sep 6 06:16:38 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 08:16:38 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <001a01c493d9$123e36f0$f9b11b97@administxl09yj> Moratti, apparently, said, in March, that biology lessons need not feature evolution, but apparently added that creationism should be a part of voluntary religious-studies classes (Nature 428, 595, 2004). "It is absolutely not true that the Ministry has removed the teaching of evolutionary theory from primary and middle schools. The discussion of Darwinian theory, a foundation of modern biological science, is assured for students from 6 to 18 years, according to gradual didactic theories. I wish in this regard to restate that the main objective of the school Reform is to create free consciences, developing a critical sense in students from the first years of their schooling. We wish to assure our children, under the guidance of teachers, a plurality of sources and opinions, so that they can compare and form their own critical consciences. We wish to stimulate all students to think, from the smallest to the oldest, so that they can form a responsible personality based on principles, values, lifestyles, and behaviors [which are] conscious, founded on respect for others, and open to comparison." (April, 28) Minister Moratti added that, given the recent debate, a commission has been formed to study the question of evolution and give precise pointers to create a basis for all 'curricula'. This commission is headed by Rita Levi Montalcini (senator for life and Nobel prize winner in medicine), and includes Carlo Rubbia, Nobel for physics, Roberto Colombo, professor of neurobiology and genetics at the Universit? Cattolica Sacro Cuore di Milano, and Vittorio Sgaramella, professor of molecular biology at the University of Calabria. [Prof. Rita Levi Montalcini is 95]. It is just a case of "passion at a distance" (Abner Shimony), between the Vatican City and the Ministry. From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Mon Sep 6 08:51:59 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:51:59 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Amara Graps wrote: > >Not only education. Her complete title is "Minister for Education, >and Universities and Scientific Research". > >http://www.governo.it/Governo/Biografie/moratti_letizia_eng.html > >>From what I've observed at my work, she is loathed in the scientific >research areas as well. How did a person who has absolutely no >experience in science and research earn that position of Minister? >It makes me very depressed about Italy. Government misters in Italy are choosen for their political connections, not because they are experts on the subject, nor because they are good administrators. A recurrent exception is the minister for health care, who is frequently an ex-doctor. Most people realize that the situation is bad, but have a fatalistic (?) attitude and think they can do nothing about it. In the US such people would stop voting. In Italy they just continue to vote for the same party they have voted for in the previous elections... so voting percentages are high, but hardly anything changes. Alfio From scerir at libero.it Mon Sep 6 09:46:26 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:46:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] urban sprawl as defense References: <008101c485aa$6092bb60$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <001001c488e8$cefe77b0$3cba1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <001501c493f6$60f73c70$24b61b97@administxl09yj> From: "scerir" > Supposed Italian targets are: Assisi (town of San > Francesco), Perugia (international university), Vatican > City, Rome (the Colosseo!), Milan (the Duomo of -), > Berlusconi's (prime minister) villas in Sardinia, > Florence (museums), Venice (perhaps). That sort > of places. > If - as services say - these are the targets, > in Italy, now, it means that they (wish to) attack > "symbols", "icons", not people. Wrong. They attack all "values". And "life" is among them. How can we explain bombing in Spain, kids killed in Russia? s. "Our terrorist sons are an end-product of our corrupted culture," Abdulrahman al-Rashed, general manager of Al-Arabiya television, wrote in his daily column published in the Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper. It ran under the headline, "The Painful Truth: All the World Terrorists are Muslims!" From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Mon Sep 6 14:48:28 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 16:48:28 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] self-assembling 3d nanostructures Message-ID: Just found these articles linked on Slashdot. Don't know if they are old news, or only minor things, anyway the links are: http://www.triangletechjournal.com/news/article.html?item_id=666 http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/09/06.html Alfio From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:25:57 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:25:57 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra invites? How about sending them to the troops? http://www.gmailforthetroops.com On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:16:16 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > I've got more too (feel free to ask!). I think it's safe to say that > nowadays, if you want an invite you can get one. > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > > > -s > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > > would like one. > > > > > > - Jef From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 06:35:09 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:05:09 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040906233519955738@mail.gmail.com> Personally, I was thinking of writing some software to use a gmail account as an offsite backup. My thinking was along the lines of using POP3 and SMTP to communicate, using something like "Pop goes the gmail" to get pop access to the account (SMTP too? there must be a way), and writing a nice gui thing to sit on top and do hotsyncing with a local folder, similar to PDA hotsyncing. After all, these accounts are 1gb (each), and they are backed up by google. Does something like that interest anyone? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:25:57 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail > account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra > invites? How about sending them to the troops? > > http://www.gmailforthetroops.com > > > > > On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 13:16:16 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > I've got more too (feel free to ask!). I think it's safe to say that > > nowadays, if you want an invite you can get one. > > > > -- > > Emlyn > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 19:57:06 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > > > > > -s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > > > would like one. > > > > > > > > - Jef > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 7 06:44:43 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:44:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Intolerance Against Intolerance Message-ID: <001101c494a6$2966ee30$6600a8c0@brainiac> Natalie Angier is one of the few journalists I've read who has had the courage to question why matters regarding "faith" are usually presented so positively in the press (strangely, the other few are mostly all women, as well - a couple of exceptions are Richard Dawkins and Gore Vidal, but their essays tend not to appear in the dailies). In today's NY Times Angier reviews a book entitled "The End of Faith" ('"Harris reserves particular ire for religious moderates, those who 'have taken the apparent high road of pluralism, asserting the equal validity of all faiths' and who 'imagine that the path to peace will be paved once each of us has learned to respect the unjustified beliefs of others.' Religious moderates, he argues, are the ones who thwart all efforts to criticize religious literalism. By preaching tolerance, they become intolerant of any rational discussion of religion and 'betray faith and reason equally.'"): http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/05/books/review/05ANGIERL.html IMO we need more such discussions in the media. If anything, it seems as if criticism of religiosity has diminished in recent years. Olga From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 07:08:21 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:38:21 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances In-Reply-To: <062101c4937d$cf368bb0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <062101c4937d$cf368bb0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc04090700083cf98dee@mail.gmail.com> Something like one of these - it's a GSM terminal, basically a little computer with a phone, and I/O ports. http://www.ericsson.com/mobilityworld/developerszonedown/downloads/docs/m2m/gt47_gt48r1a.pdf plus battery backup and an attached webcam (hopefully that could be attached through the rj12 port, or maybe you're stuck with the com port). It'd be a few hundred bucks, but it's small (about 2''x3''x1''). I've got one here on my desk, cool little device! 44K for code plus approx 20K ram. If someone chose to provide this as a commercial service, you could allow people to set these things up inside a private network (must be in conjunction with a telco), and make them addressable from the outside via a webservice, or even specific setups through a central website. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 12:23:19 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Amara Graps > > Subject: [extropy-chat] hurricane frances > > > > > > Spike: > > >Heres my proposal. Let a group of volunteers set up a webcam > > >in their neighbor's house, looking back at their own house... > > > > > I wonder where was your home, Spike, because mine had no electricity > > for about 24 hours during the '89 earthquake. I (and my neighbors) > > were in the middle of suburban Cupertino. Makes it difficult to set > > up a web cam, no? > > Oops you are right. I was without power for almost a day. > We would hafta set these things to run on battery power for > a while. > > > Minor damage, I agree, yes, but I was cleaning up the glass in my > > kitchen for days, and I lost a few irreplaceable pieces in the > > living room when the bookcases bounced a few feet, and my Mac Plus, > > when it fell over, displayed the cracks in the case for the rest of > > its life. > > Ja me too. My bookselves fell over on top of my two-week > new MacSE30. Didn't damage the machine, but scuffed the > case. I'll tell you, that machine was such a beauty: > Motorola 68030 processor, screaming along at an unimaginable > 8 megaHertz, memory upgraded to a full MEGABYTE of RAM (oh > my goodness) and a 40 Mb hard disk! Paid more for that machine > than a new subcompact car, but ooohhh boy, was I ever in > the big leagues. The Vic20 I had been using was a joke > in comparison to that. Of course the Vic20 was a joke > compared to anything, but still. > > I see your point: we would need battery power > to set up a random damage assessment system. > > spike > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From eugen at leitl.org Tue Sep 7 08:30:33 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:30:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040906233519955738@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040906233519955738@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040907083033.GO1457@leitl.org> On Tue, Sep 07, 2004 at 04:05:09PM +0930, Emlyn wrote: > Personally, I was thinking of writing some software to use a gmail > account as an offsite backup. My thinking was along the lines of using http://www.google.com/gmail/help/terms_of_use.html > POP3 and SMTP to communicate, using something like "Pop goes the > gmail" to get pop access to the account (SMTP too? there must be a > way), and writing a nice gui thing to sit on top and do hotsyncing > with a local folder, similar to PDA hotsyncing. After all, these > accounts are 1gb (each), and they are backed up by google. http://richard.jones.name/google-hacks/gmail-filesystem/gmail-filesystem.html > Does something like that interest anyone? Not really. Colo and vservers are dropping in price like lead baloons. Just use a WebDAV share like .mac or sftp. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Sep 7 08:32:15 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:32:15 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> On Mon, Sep 06, 2004 at 11:25:57PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail > account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra I believe you misspelled nationalist. > invites? How about sending them to the troops? Invading Iraq. Pretty extropic, eh. > http://www.gmailforthetroops.com -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Sep 6 10:42:17 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:42:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians Message-ID: Alfio wrote: >Government misters in Italy are choosen for their political connections, >not because they are experts on the subject, nor because they are good >administrators. A recurrent exception is the minister for health care, >who is frequently an ex-doctor. >Most people realize that the situation is bad, but have a fatalistic (?) >attitude and think they can do nothing about it. In the US such people >would stop voting. In Italy they just continue to vote for the same party >they have voted for in the previous elections... so voting percentages are >high, but hardly anything changes. Science seems to politicized in many ways in Italy, I'm discovering. When Berlusconi came into office, he appointed a new head of Italian Space Agency. I don't know if it is typical to have years of problems for transitions between political terms, but it happened in this case. The new director didn't follow or read the years of existing work already performed before his term, so scientists spent huge amounts of time justifying their existence when he began. No planetary science contracts were signed by ASI for a year or two, which had a large impact on existing space projects, plus new opportunities were missed, plus some number of people didn't get paid. Even after the initial 'years transition period, major contracts between them and other space agencies still were signed months late. They ask for detailed reports on every aspect of the planetary science work in order to have funding, people run around like nervous bees preparing the reports, then the reports don't get read and there's no funding anyway. On one of my projects, which is a NASA mission, if JPL engineers need to talk to the builders of our Italian instrument, then an ASI manager must be present. There is no money to buy computers. A printer might be down for a month because toner cartridge orders take that long to find the money and order. Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in August to save money too. [This means no electricity to the running computers, including the computers holding web pages for conference registrations like the one that I was obligated to depend on as local organizing committee for next month's Cassini workshop. So then I spent the next week writing email apologizing to the participants for not being able to keep a simple http server running on a PC. Why would they want to go to a conference if the organizers cannot even do that?, they probably wondered.] My job department secretaries were complaining that I don't speak italian fluently yet, but when is there time for me to study? My salary doesn't cover basic living expenses, so I must work at a second job. I could study between my two jobs between 2am and 7am, but I really need to sleep then. So I think that it is a miracle that science in Italy is accomplished at all, and what I've seen so far is truly excellent science, which is even more amazing to me. I think that what I've described above is normal in Italy. Some politicians make sweeping statements and laws, some number of things change, but underneath, there is absolutely no resources to support the changes, and people turn into stress-monkeys trying to do the impossible. Alfio, I'll make a deal with you. I have not met any Italians yet that approve of the Bush Administration: people here seem to be universally negative about that government, and Bush's policies affect my life in large ways here, as well. Since I cannot vote in Italian elections, but I can vote (and I am registered this time) in US elections, then please, do your best to vote Berlusconi out of office, and I will do my best to vote Bush out of office. Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Sep 7 14:41:29 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 07:41:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040907073621.031a1670@mail.earthlink.net> >See Bruce Sterling being curmudgeonly on singularity (again) at >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/view.html?pg=4 I hope the Institute for Accelerating Change did not boast about this because. These types of statements take away credibility. There have been many futurist conferences intentionally covering multidisciplinary implications of accelerated change. "The 2003 confab was billed as "the first in the world to focus on the multidisciplinary implications of accelerating change and the multidisciplinary implications of accelerating change and the consequences of a technological singularity." What is a technological singularity? A moment when runaway ad-vances outstrip human comprehension and all our knowledge and experience becomes useless as a guidepost to the future." Bruce Natasha From amara at amara.com Mon Sep 6 14:17:11 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 15:17:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neofiles: Hughes and Gilmore Message-ID: I suppose you know about RU Sirius' Neofiles? Max More was interviewed last month. This month you'll find stories on James Hughes and John Gilmore (EFF, Cypherpunks, etc.). We are all familiar with James Hughes and his perspectives, for me this issue is an extra treat to hear more about Gilmore's adventures. http://www.life-enhancement.com/NeoFiles/default.asp?ID=47 Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The real malady is fear of life, not of death." -- Naguib Mahfouz From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 13:17:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040907131757.23233.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as > a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in August > to save money too. OMFG it sounds like something straight out of Snow Crash. Amara, perhaps you ought to circulate an italian translation of that "TP Pooling" memo that YT's mom had to read in the novel??? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Tue Sep 7 13:48:41 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:48:41 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Sep 2004, Amara Graps wrote: >present. There is no money to buy computers. A printer might be down >for a month because toner cartridge orders take that long to find the >money and order. Red tape slowing everything down is common >Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as >a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in August >to save money too. > >[This means no electricity to the running computers, including the >computers holding web pages for conference registrations like the one >that I was obligated to depend on as local organizing committee for >next month's Cassini workshop. That sounds unbelievable to me. Even if cost savings are everywhere, I never saw missing toiled paper (!!) or computers shut off to save on electricity. If the situation is so bad in Rome, I can only guess what must be in Naples or such (as you may have noticed, most things in Italy change relative to the Y axis - the latitude coordinate). >Alfio, I'll make a deal with you. I have not met any Italians yet that >approve of the Bush Administration: people here seem to be universally >negative about that government, and Bush's policies affect my life in >large ways here, as well. Since I cannot vote in Italian elections, >but I can vote (and I am registered this time) in US elections, then >please, do your best to vote Berlusconi out of office, and I will do >my best to vote Bush out of office. I already did my part at the last elections, but it wasn't enough :-( What's bad is that the next election is still two years away, so the huge malcontent for the government regarding the Iraq war will be a bit forgotten. Alfio From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 7 13:51:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 06:51:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: <20040907131757.23233.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040907135130.67374.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Amara Graps wrote: > > Toilet paper is no longer given in the restrooms as > > a cost-saving measure, the institutes are closed for a week in > August > > to save money too. > > OMFG it sounds like something straight out of Snow Crash. Amara, > perhaps you ought to circulate an italian translation of that "TP > Pooling" memo that YT's mom had to read in the novel??? Grover Norquist once said, "I don't want to eliminate government, I just want to shrink it down small enough that I can drag it into the bathroom and strangle it in the tub." ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 15:04:30 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 17:04:30 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c52040907080410dedf6a@mail.gmail.com> Looks like a win-win deal. G. On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 11:42:17 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > Alfio, I'll make a deal with you. I have not met any Italians yet that > approve of the Bush Administration: people here seem to be universally > negative about that government, and Bush's policies affect my life in > large ways here, as well. Since I cannot vote in Italian elections, > but I can vote (and I am registered this time) in US elections, then > please, do your best to vote Berlusconi out of office, and I will do > my best to vote Bush out of office. > > Amara From starman2100 at cableone.net Tue Sep 7 15:15:03 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:15:03 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fab labs a harbinger of things to come Message-ID: <1094570103_22698@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From starman2100 at cableone.net Tue Sep 7 15:28:19 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 08:28:19 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fab labs a harbinger of things to come Message-ID: <1094570899_22966@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 16:04:43 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 12:04:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neofiles: Hughes and Gilmore Message-ID: <180150-2200492716443975@M2W068.mail2web.com> Amara wrote: >http://www.life-enhancement.com/NeoFiles/default.asp?ID=47 I remember R.U. back in the 1980s and early 1990s, and I remember living in Southern California with other transhumanists, but I do not remember the white-male supremacy and anarchists. I think that the techno-libertarian anarchists were in Northern California -in Silicon Valley and San Francisco. They did trickle down to Southern California, but we had so many spiritualists there that Northern California didn't want to get too close to us :-) Regardless, let's be appreciative of early transhumanists who were radical and brilliant enough to go against the grain. They are a benefit to all who know them and respect their contributions to transhumanity. I toast Eric Drexler for being there! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Sep 7 20:42:54 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 16:42:54 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? Message-ID: <2610-22004927204254990@M2W089.mail2web.com> I'm quoting one of my professors: "Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean, predicted (on 'Charlie Rose' last week) that he is sure that an Internet-based third party will emerge before 2008 with money comparable to what the two established parties can raise. (It's supposedly in his book _The Revolution will be Televised_.)" Anyone see the "Charlie Rose" interview, or read Trippi's book? Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 22:30:30 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:30:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <7a3217050409071530390646fb@mail.gmail.com> Listen, I wasn't trying to start any political tyrade or anything. Personally I was also against going to war in Iraq. Your post would make some sense if I had suggested sending an invite to dubya, but I didn't. The majority of US troops abroad would rather not be there. They're doing their duty to "God and country" in exchange for pay, education and work experience. I don't begrudge them. If you do, that's your prerogative. You can send your invite to Saddam. Zero On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 10:32:15 +0200, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Mon, Sep 06, 2004 at 11:25:57PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > > > OK it looks like everyone here who wants one already has a Gmail > > account. So what's a patriotic Extrope to do with all those extra > > I believe you misspelled nationalist. > > > invites? How about sending them to the troops? > > Invading Iraq. Pretty extropic, eh. > > > http://www.gmailforthetroops.com > > > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > > > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 7 23:57:16 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:27:16 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409071530390646fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc040905204611a16f7b@mail.gmail.com> <7a321705040906232576ebf536@mail.gmail.com> <20040907083215.GP1457@leitl.org> <7a3217050409071530390646fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409071657ed56f2b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 7 Sep 2004 15:30:30 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Listen, I wasn't trying to start any political tyrade or anything. > Personally I was also against going to war in Iraq. Your post would > make some sense if I had suggested sending an invite to dubya, but I > didn't. > > The majority of US troops abroad would rather not be there. They're > doing their duty to "God and country" in exchange for pay, education > and work experience. I don't begrudge them. If you do, that's your > prerogative. You can send your invite to Saddam. > > Zero > I'm pretty sure they don't give the old guy computer access :-) -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 03:57:27 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 20:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? In-Reply-To: <2610-22004927204254990@M2W089.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040908035727.67746.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > I'm quoting one of my professors: > > "Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean, > predicted (on 'Charlie Rose' > last week) that he is sure that an Internet-based > third party will emerge > before 2008 with money comparable to what the two > established parties can > raise. (It's supposedly in his book _The Revolution > will be Televised_.)" > > Anyone see the "Charlie Rose" interview, or read > Trippi's book? > > Natasha > > IMHO That is very optimistic. I would agree with him if it it weren't for the fact that both the Republicans and the Democrats have already saturated the Internet with their tripe. Moreover it seems to me based on Howard Dean's example (I liked him and still do) that no matter how popular or how much Internet presence a candidate has, if the mainstream media (controlled by FOX, CBS, NBC aka Microsoft, ABC aka Disney, CNN aka AOL-Time-Warner) chooses to torpedo the candidate then they are screwed. Internet based or not, the only hope I foresee for a third party in the United States right now, other than the miraculous enlightenment of the masses, is a coalition of all existing third parties. That is to say that if the Independants, the Libertarians, the Greens, the Freedom, the Communists, the Constitution Party, and every other party that may have slipped my mind gets together and forms an uber-coalition party, then there might be a political entity capable of ousting the GOP and Dems. Unfortunately considering the wide range of platforms espoused by all these parties, such a coalition would probabably become a watered down sorry excuse of a compromise just like the current two parties. Lets face it, game theory has mathematically shown that in a two party system, it behooves both parties to fight against the credibility of any third party tooth and nail, because both parties covet the middle ground and can't stomach some third party getting the moderate and undecided votes. In a two party system, the best strategy is to try to be as moderate as possible. (which is why all recent elections have been like choosing between Coke or Pepsi). If there was a viable third party then both existing parties would be forced farther toward their respective polarities and their best strategy then would be to be far left or far right and hope. Therefore, so long as mass media is more prevalent than the Internet and that mass media is controlled by Rupert Murdoch and his ilk, you will have great candidates like Howard Dean have their character assassinated for being decisive and passionate enough to scream during a speech. And you will have not so great candidates like Kerry first propped up and then, in the final hour, criticised for being bland and indecisive. All so they can get a souless corporate tool back into office, to truly ensure the longterm rule of the overclass. The moral of the story: The Internet is wonderful but the average American still thinks that TV is the voice of God. Since all 1000 channels are owned by 5 companies, you have a situation where five men control consentual reality for the masses. Therefore you are screwed, unless of course you are Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch, Michael Eisner, etc. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 04:08:23 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 21:08:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SPACE: Will Frances destroytheremainingthreeshuttles? In-Reply-To: <054201c4917d$befbf7a0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06bf01c49559$7f6ec3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> I wrote: > I love any good competition, so here it goes: the height of > technology vs the fury of nature. Wooohoooo, may the best > one win! {8-] spike > > ps Im betting on the building in this case... Doh! }8-[ {8^D See that, you guys shoulda taken me up on my friendly wager for 90 imaginary cents: Frances rolls into Florida Panhandle as rest of state begins recovery from storm's initial strike ... Hurricane Frances did more damage to the Kennedy Space Center than any storm in history, tearing an estimated 1,000 exterior panels from a giant building where spaceships are assembled. No space shuttles were inside the building, but center director James Kennedy said he feared the damage could set back NASA's effort to resume shuttle launches next spring... --- EDITOR'S NOTE - Associated Press writers Allen G. Breed in Fort Pierce, Jill Barton in West Palm Beach, Vickie Chachere in Tampa, Brent Kallestad in Tallahassee, Mike Schneider in Orlando and Ron Word in Daytona Beach also contributed to this report. From starman2100 at cableone.net Wed Sep 8 05:01:54 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:01:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Female sexuality, future of Message-ID: <1094619714_41738@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 05:36:24 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 22:36:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06bf01c49559$7f6ec3d0$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> I was cutting up with some guys at lunch today. A question occurred to me: why is it that when someone does or says something funny, people start to laugh, then something must happen in our brains to adjust something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at that joke indefinitely. Sometimes some event is so funny we cannot stop laughing for some time, but after a period of time we always do stop. Good thing, eh? But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us to stop laughing? spike From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 05:59:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:59:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The promise of personalized medicine Message-ID: EurekAlert: A new technology developed by scientists at IBM could bring the promise of personalized medicine one step closer to reality. Using a basic computer language, the researchers created a "smart" DNA stream that contains a patient's entire medical record, according to a report in the upcoming Oct. 11 print edition of the Journal of Proteome Research, a peer-reviewed journal of the American Chemical Society, the world's largest scientific society. The report was published online July 22. With the advent of the genomic revolution, scientists are avidly seeking correlations between human disease and the architecture of individual genes. Parsing this huge amount of data could eventually lead to "personalized medicine," some researchers say, allowing doctors to prescribe the right drug at the right dose for the right person, based on unique variations in their DNA. But to achieve this potential, scientists need a way to store and efficiently transmit whole sequences of patient DNA with built-in privacy -- a hurdle that has yet to be overcome, according to the authors. Enter IBM's Genomic Messaging System (GMS). GMS provides a basic computer language that can be inserted into DNA sequences to bridge the gap between patient medical records and genetic information, says lead author of the paper, Barry Robson, Ph.D., a chemist at IBM's T. J. Watson Research Center in Yorktown Heights, N.Y. The stream of information transmitted is basically a "smart" DNA sequence containing a patient's entire medical record in compressed form as well as genetic information. The DNA stream could potentially even house images like MRIs and X-rays. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-09/acs-po090704.php --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Sep 8 06:12:53 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 07 Sep 2004 23:12:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (TLCB) After-action report from 7 miles inland of Kennedy Space Center. Message-ID: <413EA2E5.60A91DF5@mindspring.com> 1900 hrs After-action report from 7 miles inland of Kennedy Space Center. Frances is now gone. I've been through several before, but never saw one last this long. We had significant wind from early Saturday evening, that continued till Sunday evening. Still had some rain, and lessor winds into yesterday afternoon. It was actually this afternoon before the winds were completely gone. I, and some of my neighbors, were out in it early Sunday trying to get some trees off a car and a house. One oak started coming apart as we were working on it - little hauling ass involved there! Frances was definitely a thrill ride. I lost power about 1400 hrs on Saturday, just got it back 1000 this morning. Been living on the generator in the interim. Life takes on a new meaning when your biggest concern is if (and where) you can get enough gas to keep the generator running! No damage to the house, but I have four real tall palms down in my back yard, which I've spent two days cutting up. Each one is/was 30+ feet tall. Add them to the two I had just finished cutting up from Charlie, and my back yard looks like a logging operation. Kennedy Space Center got its ass kicked. My next door neighbor works in some physical security capacity out there (not sure what exactly - kind of secret) and got home this morning. He was in the Vehicle Assembly Building (VAB) and says it got beat up pretty good. For those of you who have been to KSC you know which building that is. For those who've just seen it in movies or TV, it's the humungous building in which they stand the shuttle upright to attach it to the solid rocket booster (SRB). (It's so large it has its own atmosphere inside. If the air conditioning goes off for too long in humid whether, it will actually form a cloud and rain inside the building.) Some of the electronics facilities inside the VAB got inundated with rain, when parts of the walls blew out. He said it was really creepy inside, listening to the metal torqueing, and groaning - with no lights. Unknown yet if the shuttle or SRB were damaged. A couple other buildings got it bad as well. On new one lost it's roof, and all three stories full of communications equipment were totally soaked. This county is nearly 80 miles long, and down in the south part - where brother Charlie Logue lives - it was worse than we got. They were just north of land fall. Here's hoping Charlie came through it. As for you guys in the center of the State, and on the West Coast. How are things over there? Gary Beatty Medic - NKP (73-74) -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 8 06:19:07 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:19:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Davies' freedom References: <180150-2200492716443975@M2W068.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <001101c4956b$bf665310$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> Paul Davies freely speculates about free will. Two types of 'freedom' are described. One it is supernatural and one natural. http://www.naturalism.org/davies.htm "This isn't right. This isn't even wrong." - W. Pauli (In a very long paper Asher Peres studied, also giving mathematical details, the possible connection between free will and QM, and especially between free will and quantum entanglements. It turned out that QM and quantum entanglements cannot forbid free will. Unless there is, as Peres and Zurek say in another paper, a super-determinism, as John Bell called it, i.e. a deterministic universal simulation. Since there are political, social, ideological, psychological entanglements that are non-quantal, and since there are also macro physical systems violating Bell's inequalities, well I'm not sure about my own freedom!) From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 06:23:47 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:23:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06d601c4956c$663d8190$6401a8c0@SHELLY> > Spike: > > ...people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely... ...Which would presumably be a fatal condition. The indefinite-laugher would be rendered unable to eat. She might attempt to do so, but the partially-masticated viands would spew from her nose (the way milk used to do when you were in the elementary school lunch room and everything was funny back then. Later in high school only things that were somehow related to sex were funny.) The sight of the jolly victim's nose spewing food would be so hilarious that the rest of the tribe might be taken out in a gleeful, even if painful, demise. Perhaps the stop-laughing mechanism evolved as a survival of the soberest thing. Did you laugh just now? What caused you stop? What is *different* in your brain now compared to half a minute ago? Why don't humans die laughing? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 06:38:26 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 7 Sep 2004 23:38:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06d601c4956c$663d8190$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <06d701c4956e$720b4960$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Spike: > > Did you laugh just now? What caused you stop? What is > *different* in your brain now compared to half a minute ago? > Why don't humans die laughing?... spike ...And if we figure out what causes us to stop laughing, we should eventually be able to adjust that. We have all known people that were too sober or too silly. Or both. We could crank up the giggle-governor when it is time to work, then turn it back down when our buddies come over to view Monte Python videos. As we get closer to uploading, we will surely start to stumble upon stuff like this: odd mechanisms that have evolved in our brains that do things that we don't even vaguely understand, and don't know how to code, or can't get to work right. The first uploads might be rendered helpless because no one wrote the subroutine that allow them to recover from the first good joke they get in the email. spike From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 8 06:48:30 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:48:30 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <002d01c4956f$daba7de0$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > spike Laughing is, perhaps, controlled in a different part of our brain, so when other places in our brain go to sleep, the laughing center takes over. And viceversa. Ok this does not explain anything! s. In 1840 a dentist named Horace Wells had the idea that, with the recently discovered "exhilarating or laughing gas", teeth might be extracted without pain. Under its influence he had one of his own teeth pulled in 1844 and afterwards frequently used it in his practice. Before a class at the Massachusetts General Hospital, Wells gave a demonstration with a patient. Things did not go too well. The patient suffered great pain. Wells became depressed, addicted (to chloroform, another anesthetic agent) and in 1848 committed suicide. More at: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/nitrous_two/ From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Sep 8 07:21:14 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:21:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06d601c4956c$663d8190$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <002001c49574$6ca23050$1db71218@Nano> Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public, when you are supposed to control yourself. The joke comes and goes, and I can not stop laughing. I'm talking water in the eyes, bending over and the whole, "now I'm laughing because I am laughing" phase. I will even continue to crack internal jokes after the initial joke, in my head. I notice I do it more in situations where I should be more reserved and well behaved, it may just be the rebel in me, sort of like when mom would drag me to church and I would think dirty thoughts just because it's taboo.........but I am a natural clown, among other things. g` > ...people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Sep 8 07:22:43 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 00:22:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> <002d01c4956f$daba7de0$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <002b01c49574$a4c5fc00$1db71218@Nano> http://people.howstuffworks.com/laughter.htm/printable Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." ----- Original Message ----- From: scerir To: ExI chat list Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2004 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > spike Laughing is, perhaps, controlled in a different part of our brain, so when other places in our brain go to sleep, the laughing center takes over. And viceversa. Ok this does not explain anything! s. In 1840 a dentist named Horace Wells had the idea that, with the recently discovered "exhilarating or laughing gas", teeth might be extracted without pain. Under its influence he had one of his own teeth pulled in 1844 and afterwards frequently used it in his practice. Before a class at the Massachusetts General Hospital, Wells gave a demonstration with a patient. Things did not go too well. The patient suffered great pain. Wells became depressed, addicted (to chloroform, another anesthetic agent) and in 1848 committed suicide. More at: http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/nitrous_two/ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Wed Sep 8 11:06:54 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:06:54 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040812073837.GK1477@leitl.org> <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:48:55AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Who's going to build the microwave > > stations on the ground to > > track the craft as it goes around the Earth? > > I generally agree with most of your objections here, > but this one can easily be solved: solar panels (or > cells on the craft's skin), or a fleet of microwave > satellites launched by traditional means. We're trying to lower cost for LEO launch. Putting massive power satellite fleets up there doesn't strike me as "easily solved". > > The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as > > SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. > > *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own > right. If they can solve the engineering issues of > floating serious payload at high altitudes...floating > cities, anyone? What is the economic value of a floating city? -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 8 11:45:31 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:45:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> References: <20040812073837.GK1477@leitl.org> <20040812174855.86946.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <413EF0DB.7080003@mail.tele.dk> Eugen Leitl wrote: >What is the economic value of a floating city? > > Space in itself opens up for easier access to the raw materials and expansion room in space. SO from that POW space cities are a good idea. The "eggs in one basket" is also an argument. The problem is that those paying are not the same as those that will reap the eventual benefits. Most likely space will be inhabited by robots instead. They won't need as much support. While I can see why I would pay to live in southern France, I don't really see many benefits to relocating the family to a tin can in space. It's far to hostile. Sending out Robots that can send back enough data to build accurate 3D VR copies that I can enjoy at home, is much more reasonable. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From Steve365 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 8 12:01:46 2004 From: Steve365 at btinternet.com (Steve Davies) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:01:46 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <003b01c4959b$9df93140$c2ea8351@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 6:36 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? > > I was cutting up with some guys at lunch today. A > question occurred to me: why is it that when someone > does or says something funny, people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely. Sometimes some event is so > funny we cannot stop laughing for some time, but after > a period of time we always do stop. Good thing, eh? > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > > spike I think there must be some chemical feedback mechanism in the brain. Magic mushrooms clearly interfere with this because their main effect is to make you find everything hilarious and laugh nonstop for hours - I can vouch for this. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 12:33:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 05:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? In-Reply-To: <20040908035727.67746.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040908123319.87505.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > > Moreover it seems to me > based on Howard Dean's example (I liked him and still > do) Howard Dean ran the Vermont state budget up so high so fast that the property taxes of people I know there went from $3,000 per year to $13,000/yr in three years. Dean is the reason why one town has already seceded from the state, and a dozen more are going to vote on secession this coming March. Vermont is now one of the higest tax states in the union. Dean was no different than Michael Dukakis: they both governed states based upon chimerical economic principles which started collapsing as soon as they left office. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 12:41:28 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 05:41:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <06cb01c49565$cab76a70$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040908124128.38574.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> endorphin levels vs receptor availability.... --- Spike wrote: > > I was cutting up with some guys at lunch today. A > question occurred to me: why is it that when someone > does or says something funny, people start to laugh, > then something must happen in our brains to adjust > something. Otherwise we would keep on laughing at > that joke indefinitely. Sometimes some event is so > funny we cannot stop laughing for some time, but after > a period of time we always do stop. Good thing, eh? > But what actually occurs in our brains to allow us > to stop laughing? > > spike > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 12:56:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 05:56:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040908125630.89968.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:48:55AM -0700, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > Who's going to build the microwave > > > stations on the ground to > > > track the craft as it goes around the Earth? > > Whoever develops the technology of course. Whether they can get lease and flyover rights from every paranoid nation on the planet is another story entirely... > > > > The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as > > > SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. > > > > *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own > > right. If they can solve the engineering issues of > > floating serious payload at high altitudes...floating > > cities, anyone? > > What is the economic value of a floating city? Earth observation, communications, military high ground. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 13:00:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 06:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The promise of personalized medicine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040908130015.9196.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > EurekAlert: A new technology developed by scientists at IBM could > bring the > promise of personalized medicine one step closer to reality. Its already closer to reality, at least in the nutritional field. http://www.mycellf.com This company profiles your DNA to create custom nutritional supplement plans for you as an individual. A friend of mine is one of their distributors. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 8 13:26:56 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 22:56:56 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 15:51:25 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:27 PM 9/3/2004 -0400, Bret wrote: > > >Interview in Wired with Craig Newmark, of Craigslist. > >http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/craigslist.html?tw=wn_tophead_7 > > See Bruce Sterling being curmudgeonly on singularity (again) at > http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.09/view.html?pg=4 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > "Sure, computers might someday awaken into something resembling human consciousness, but we have no metrics to describe that awakening and thus no objective way to recognize it if it happens. How would you test a claim like that?" uh, when your PC evolves into pure energy and eats your grandma, maybe something is up... "Vinge put it this way: "For me, the superhumanity is the essence of the Singularity. Without that, we would get a glut of tech-nical riches, never properly absorbed." Remove the magic threat of artificial intelligence from Vinge's prognostication, and you get a brilliant description of the present day: a glut of technical riches, never properly absorbed. Instead of spiritual supercomputers for brains, we've got a spam-choked Internet." yes, the internet is sooooo 1999. Hardly. "The singularity's biggest flaw isn't that it's hard to imagine, but that it flatters its human inventors. We may be on the verge of an astounding breakthrough! Or, with equal likelihood, we may be at the edge of a new dark age of plagues, mass hunger, and climate destabilization. More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of progress and no sense of direction. " Where is this guy living, camp xray? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 14:31:38 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 07:31:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <002001c49574$6ca23050$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <070101c495b0$8d18ec20$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Gina Miller: Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public, when you are supposed to control yourself...g Me too Gina. Thats what made me think of it: I was consistently the last one to settle down. Consequently also the last one to finish eating lunch. s {8^D <--- see look at me, Im *still* acting silly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 8 15:07:21 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 08:07:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <002001c49574$6ca23050$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public,...sort of like when mom would drag me to church and I would think dirty thoughts just because it's taboo.........but I am a natural clown, among other things. g For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local house of ill repute. Your mileage may vary. {8^D spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Sep 8 16:17:06 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 18:17:06 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: CNN Breaking News Message-ID: <86FA73DA-01B2-11D9-84D0-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Begin forwarded message: > From: CNN Breaking News > Date: 8 September 2004 18:03:08 GMT+02:00 > To: TEXTBREAKINGNEWS at CNNIMAIL12.CNN.COM > Subject: CNN Breaking News > Reply-To: newseditor at MAIL.CNN.COM > > -- Genesis spacecraft down in Utah desert, chutes failed to open. > > Watch CNN or log on to http://CNN.com for the latest news. > More Americans watch CNN. More Americans trust CNN. > > ******************************************************************** > Watch Anderson Cooper 360 weeknights 7 p.m. ET only on CNN. > See what's on tonight: http://www.CNN.com/andersoncooper360 > ******************************************************************** > > To unsubscribe from CNN.com's Breaking News E-Mail Alert, log on to: > http://CNN.com/EMAIL/breakingnews.html > > To sign up for additional e-mail products, go to http://CNN.com/EMAIL > > (c)2004. Cable News Network, LP, LLLP. > A Time Warner Company. > All Rights Reserved. > > > > > CNN Interactive email id:150791203062628640 > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 16:29:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:29:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > > "Vinge put it this way: "For me, the superhumanity is the essence of > the Singularity. Without that, we would get a glut of tech-nical > riches, never properly absorbed." Remove the magic threat of > artificial intelligence from Vinge's prognostication, and you get a > brilliant description of the present day: a glut of technical riches, > never properly absorbed. Instead of spiritual supercomputers for > brains, we've got a spam-choked Internet." > > yes, the internet is sooooo 1999. Hardly. Yeah. While he has a point that a lot of our exponents are being wasted on non-productive activity like spam, viruses/worms, bloatware, etc. there are still plenty of areas of advancement. My new cellular Treo 600 smartphone runs a processor many times more powerful than my first desktop PC (that was a TI-99), has 8 times more memory than my first office PC (386/4MRAM) had (with four times more expandability, and there is far more software available for its Palm5 OS than was available for my Windows 3.1 / 386mhz system in 1992. Beyond that the Treo fits in my shirt pocket, and was of indispensable use in the past week, as I was left flying the company solo up here. I'm not concerned about old operating systems dying off from bloat. New ones like Palm, QNX, and others will always crop up to supplant them. (I'm predicting that Palm will be the Microsoft of this decade). I'm incredibly happy with this little tool, and am looking forward to the day when I can have its decendant embedded in my brain, which I'm now predicting will happen within this decade. > > "The singularity's biggest flaw isn't that it's hard to imagine, but > that it flatters its human inventors. We may be on the verge of an > astounding breakthrough! Or, with equal likelihood, we may be at the > edge of a new dark age of plagues, mass hunger, and climate > destabilization. More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > progress and no sense of direction. " > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 8 16:45:56 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 09:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The other space program In-Reply-To: <20040908110653.GF1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040908164556.81681.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Aug 12, 2004 at 10:48:55AM -0700, Adrian > Tymes wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > Who's going to build the microwave > > > stations on the ground to > > > track the craft as it goes around the Earth? > > > > I generally agree with most of your objections > here, > > but this one can easily be solved: solar panels > (or > > cells on the craft's skin), or a fleet of > microwave > > satellites launched by traditional means. > > We're trying to lower cost for LEO launch. Putting > massive > power satellite fleets up there doesn't strike me as > "easily solved". The powersats could be put to other uses. If they could make a profit on their own, they could be done independent of anything else. Bootstrapping, as it were. That said, you're right: direct solar power is probably easier. > > > The Dark Sky station is as close to LEO as > > > SpaceshipOne. I.e., not at all. > > > > *shrugs* Doesn't mean it isn't useful in its own > > right. If they can solve the engineering issues > of > > floating serious payload at high > altitudes...floating > > cities, anyone? > > What is the economic value of a floating city? Massive air cargo lifter, similar to zepplins but floating high enough that weather is not as much of a problem (except for launching/landing of transfer craft). Or a waypoint towards true space colonization. The view would certainly be unmatched; one could set up a high-altitude hotel that a simple up-and-down rocket like SSO could reach without having to actually reach orbital velocity. And, of course, there are various communication applications. From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 8 16:51:17 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:51:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > > >More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > > >squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > > >progress and no sense of direction. " > > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? > >Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a very tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi gigaflops. Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, the future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever going to happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, boo hoo): http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCIFI08/TPEntertainment/ Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 17:26:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 10:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040908172636.81378.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > > > >More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > > > >squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > > > >progress and no sense of direction. " > > > > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? > > > >Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. > > Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a > very > tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi > gigaflops. > Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, > the > future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever > going to > happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, > boo hoo): > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCIFI08/TPEntertainment/ > Vinge himself has said in the past that other factors could temper or set back the exponential curve. In his fictional treatment in the Peace War, it was a global bio/nuke/chem/bobble war waged by the Peace Authority on governments, and use of the 'bobble' technology thereafter to restrain technological advancement. Today, we have global reactionary elements of various sorts: a) christian conservatives b) islamist fundamentalist/nationalist terrorists c) Green luddites Smart realpolitik will pitch these elements against each other, as is currently happening between a and b. C is being marginally impacted by a's statutory controls on b but is gaining credibility via an agitprop campaign against those controls among the lumpenproles. The common theme among all three groups is a deep distrust in the human individual to act responsibly with technology of any kind (even culture). ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 8 17:33:46 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 12:33:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908123307.01b1b7b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6182701 PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule returning solar particles to Earth after a three-year mission that probed the origins of the solar system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be captured in a mid-air recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory said on Wednesday. From hemm at openlink.com.br Wed Sep 8 18:00:18 2004 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:00:18 -0300 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908123307.01b1b7b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <01fe01c495cd$b34eb290$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Which proves what a good idea it was to try and catch it in mid-air instead of a simple parachute. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:33 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes | http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6182701 | | | PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule returning solar particles to | Earth after a three-year mission that probed the origins of the solar | system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be captured in a mid-air | recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory said on Wednesday. | | | _______________________________________________ | extropy-chat mailing list | extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org | http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat | From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 18:25:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 11:25:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes In-Reply-To: <01fe01c495cd$b34eb290$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: <20040908182519.58712.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Uh, it HAD a parachute, which did not open, which is why it did not get recovered. The point of the air recovery was to spare any impact shock which would even occur if the chute opened. The other point of it was that it is far easier to recover it in mid air than to search the vast wilderness on the ground for it... --- Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > Which proves what a good idea it was to try and catch it in mid-air > instead of a simple parachute. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damien Broderick" > To: "'ExI chat list'" > Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 2:33 PM > Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes > > > | > http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6182701 > | > | > | PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule returning solar > particles to > | Earth after a three-year mission that probed the origins of the > solar > | system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be captured in a > mid-air > | recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory said on > Wednesday. > | > | > | _______________________________________________ > | extropy-chat mailing list > | extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > | http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > | > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 8 19:27:57 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 15:27:57 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity Message-ID: <280250-22004938192757549@M2W074.mail2web.com> From: Damien >Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a very >tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi gigaflops. >Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, the >future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever going to >happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, boo >hoo): >http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCI FI08/TPEntertainment/ Buces just sent me a message from Ars Electronica, so he's out of our Austin loop for the moment. N -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Sep 8 20:18:02 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 13:18:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <010d01c495e0$f4e8ffe0$1db71218@Nano> MessageGood one Spike, and that's keeping with the topic at hand! g` ----- Original Message ----- From: Spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2004 8:07 AM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? Hmm, I actually have problems with this adjustment, especially in public,...sort of like when mom would drag me to church and I would think dirty thoughts just because it's taboo.........but I am a natural clown, among other things. g For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local house of ill repute. Your mileage may vary. {8^D spike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 8 23:29:40 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 16:29:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908123307.01b1b7b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040908232940.65098.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > PASADENA, Calif. (Reuters) - A space capsule > returning solar particles to > Earth after a three-year mission that probed the > origins of the solar > system crashed in the Utah desert before it could be > captured in a mid-air > recovery, officials at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory > said on Wednesday. Well all I can say is good thing it wasn't sampling soil from an alien biosphere or we might have had the "andromeda strain" on our hands. As it is, we may have particles of exotic matter floating around Utah. They could be toxic or radioactive but hey at least it's just Utah. I am puzzled by the second to last sentence from the article: >The container inside the capsule had solar ions, some as light as a few grains of sand. I thought that ions were charged atoms or at least small molecules. So being equal in mass to a few grains of sand would make them the heaviest ions I have ever heard of. Is this a mistake? Or did they get some really crazy new form of heavy matter like atoms made of top quarks or something? ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From starman2100 at cableone.net Wed Sep 8 23:44:36 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 16:44:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genesis probe crashes Message-ID: <1094687076_61554@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joe at barrera.org Thu Sep 9 00:04:31 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 17:04:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <070b01c495b5$8ad59990$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <413F9E0F.9010404@barrera.org> Spike wrote: > For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local house of ill repute. I'd say Freud probably beat you to it. So to speak. -- Opium and Poison, Jasmine and Rose... From siproj at ripco.com Thu Sep 9 00:00:26 2004 From: siproj at ripco.com (siproj) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 19:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cryogenics Economics- Estate Tax deferral? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2004, Greg Burch wrote: > Oh sure, such things have happened and (as you suspected) still > infrequently happen. But my point was about life insurance in general: > Life insurance is the ultimate business based on the qualities of > people's behavior in large numbers, and a successful reanimation would, > I hope, change that. The problem is this: life insurance is NEVER a > good bet for the "life insured": if you win, you lose (i.e. die). If > you live longer than the insurer expects, you pay the insurer MORE. > Even people of modest intelligence will figure out that life insurance > isn't a good deal in more and more circumstances -- at least at the > scale and for the reasons most people buy life insurance -- if they > think they have a chance at vastly extended lifespans. Actually not completely the case in real life Greg, there was a guy that outlived his policy in Iowa a few years back. They paid out his policy while he was alive since the original life insurance contract assumed no one would live past 92 (approximately). Insurance is merely a risk pool and a financial model designed to acquire and re-invest capital. The question is to whom the profits go, the payout go according to the rules in legitimate insurance contracts. > This isn't to say that some kind of actuarily-based insurance product > connected to both death-chances and cryonic suspension couldn't be > crafted (life actuaries are fiendishly clever folks), but it would have > to look quite a bit different -- legally and financially -- from current > life insurance products. GB -- http://www.gregburch.net Maybe the CryoAnnuity(tm) is the trademark you ought to register for a (r) or (sm). You still practive I. P. law? Maybe you can license it to several carriers or create an insurance contract and have back end insurance companies do the gory details and get your space habitat funded through passive income generation. Let me know. Dan siproj at rci.ripco.com Creator of alt.inventors and keeper of the Official alt.inventors FAQ despite what some alt.config sysadmin/waste of time/bandwidth actions. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 00:47:10 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:17:10 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04090817471a8b90b9@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:51:17 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > > >More likely yet, we live in a dull, self-satisfied, > > > >squalid eddy in history, blundering around with no concept of > > > >progress and no sense of direction. " > > > > > Where is this guy living, camp xray? > > > >Watts? Elko, Nevada? Guy needs to wake up and smell the gigaflops. > > Well, to be literal-minded about it, the Brucester is living in a very > tasty part of Austin, so the very air is fragrant with wi-fi gigaflops. > Meanwhile, other people are making the same sort of point (boo hoo, the > future didn't turn out like the Jetsons, and now nothing is ever going to > happen except more terrorism and unemployment poverty and boredom, boo hoo): > > http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPPrint/LAC/20040908/SCIFI08/TPEntertainment/ > > Damien Broderick I think this article, while equally negative, is actually making the opposite point... that the world is getting a lot harder to comprehend. I wonder if Bruce is actually having the same problem that a lot of us have, which is that when you stick your head in the firehose for long enough, you become a little dulled to sensation. At some point, you read an article describing something along the lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish there was something more interesting to read. There's definitely a can't-see-the-forest-for-the-trees issue too, and these days there really are such a lot of trees. There's also the idea, which Bruce Sterling makes as well, that Vinge damaged sci-fi with the singularity meme. I wonder... maybe sci-fi always appealed to us geeks because it was a way to escape imagine extremely interesting things that seemed inconceivable in real (mundane) life. Perhaps decline in interest is due in part to the increasingly interesting world we geeks live in? After all, if I've got 24hr internet access and the associated bombardment of incredible factoids about the world that we live in right now, sci-fi needs to go a loooong way to stimulate my amazement modules enough to get my attention. And so the readership you have left are the fantasy drones who need escape literature because the world is far too bamboozling. Also, I must argue with the idea that sci-fi isn't as good... there is a lot of really quite stunning sci-fi on the shelves these days (eg: egan, bear, and our very own mr broderick). I often read it to relax my mind over a weekend when I've gone into information overload. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sentience at pobox.com Thu Sep 9 02:04:12 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:04:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04090817471a8b90b9@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc0409080626f684512@mail.gmail.com> <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040908114536.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <710b78fc04090817471a8b90b9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <413FBA1C.8070604@pobox.com> Emlyn wrote: > > There's also the idea, which Bruce Sterling makes as well, that Vinge > damaged sci-fi with the singularity meme. Vinge didn't damage sci-fi, just presented it with an extremely difficult challenge to which few authors have risen. As for the failing authors who try to treat the Singularity as a postmodern ironic commentary on the futility of science fiction, well, too bad for them. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 03:08:59 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 20:08:59 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <413F9E0F.9010404@barrera.org> Message-ID: <000001c4961a$5dc871b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Joseph S. Barrera III > Spike wrote: > > > For added hilarity, ponder sacred themes at the local > house of ill repute. > > I'd say Freud probably beat you to it. So to speak. > -- Ja but Ive often thought this whole Madonna/whore thing is a put-on. She doesn't seem any more promiscuous than any of the other female rock stars. Last Newtonmas I went to the post office for postage, they offered to show me the Madonna stamps. I objected that this isn't Madonna, this is some woman holding a glowing baby. Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. But as Gina pointed out, I fear we have swung wide of the thread here. {8^D spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 9 03:19:19 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:19:19 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <20040908162936.70524.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019e01c4961b$cb8d6060$ec202dcb@homepc> Mike Lorrey: > I'm incredibly happy with this little tool, and am looking forward to > the day when I can have its decendant embedded in my brain, which I'm > now predicting will happen within this decade. I'd say, ya wanna bet, but then we'd have to work out a way to do it. Not within this decade - not unless you are a researcher yourself or planning to visit some mad scientist friend in a less regulated society. You'll still have Bush or Kerry in the Whitehouse for most of the time from now 'til then. Emlyn wrote: > At some point, you read an article describing something along the > lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon > nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish there > was something more interesting to read. I'd be potentially very impressed myself, though the "some guys" bit doesn't sound like a quote from a peer reviewed journal. Brett Paatsch From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 9 03:35:55 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 22:35:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <000001c4961a$5dc871b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <413F9E0F.9010404@barrera.org> <000001c4961a$5dc871b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. Damien Broderick From matus at matus1976.com Thu Sep 9 03:37:06 2004 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 23:37:06 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Davies' freedom In-Reply-To: <001101c4956b$bf665310$6fc71b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <001a01c4961e$4db6afe0$6601a8c0@GREYBOOK> > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] Davies' freedom > > Paul Davies freely speculates about free will. > Two types of 'freedom' are described. One it is > supernatural and one natural. > http://www.naturalism.org/davies.htm This site/page appears to be arguing that physics indicates free will does not exist, though it claims the repercussions of that are not as bad as the pro-free will camp (me for one) would argue http://www.naturalism.org/freewill.htm " Philosopher Galen Strawson is interviewed by Tamler Sommers on what it would mean to free ourselves from mistaken beliefs in ultimate freedom and moral responsibility. Living with the truth that such things don't exist, although perhaps difficult at first, might bring considerable psychological and social benefits." " Philosopher Saul Smilansky thinks that belief in free will, which he concedes doesn't exist, is necessary to provide essential support for morality, meaning, and the worth of human beings. I argue that he is mistaken on all counts, and that we would be better off morally and existentially without believing the falsehood that we have free will. Moreover, Smilansky's view entails a massive, world-wide project of systematic deception about our causal connection to nature, which is neither possible, necessary, nor desirable. Free will is not a necessary fiction, and making known the naturalistic truth about ourselves is a far better basis for human flourishing." Michael From starman2100 at cableone.net Thu Sep 9 03:35:33 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 20:35:33 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity Message-ID: <1094700933_9484@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 9 04:24:07 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2004 21:24:07 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. > > Damien Broderick They don't like the compound verb "go postal." They also do not like the tasteless and offensive gag that goes: Q: What does it mean when the post office flag is half mast? A: They're hiring. Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going postal there for a while? Since a Lockheeed worker did likewise last year, I suppose the post office isn't the only job that can cause people to snap and murder. Could coincidence alone explain those three (?) incidents? Was it three? Or only two? spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 9 04:30:26 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 14:30:26 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <1094700933_9484@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <01d701c49625$bb0a7e80$ec202dcb@homepc> Emlyn wrote: > At some point, you read an article describing something along the > lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon > nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish there > was something more interesting to read. Brett replied: I'd be potentially very impressed myself, though the "some guys" bit doesn't sound like a quote from a peer reviewed journal. > John Grigg: Ahhh....., but actually it very well could be a quote taken from the peer reviewed journal entitled "Academy of Human Cellular and Stickshift Automobile Mechanics, Greater Trenton New Jersey Chapter." As I understand, it is peer reviewed by only fully certified stand-up guys who don't do you no wrong as long as you don't mess with their very expensive lab equipment. Molecular biologists from other states give them a wide berth, but women find them irresistable and claim with enough love and understanding they will change. -- lab equipment = moonshine still ? The standup guys actually are, but just barely, and the 'pee'-ers are mos'ly just "takin' the p*iss" ? Brett (NJ women sould nice) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 9 04:40:26 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:40:26 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908233951.01cebee8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going >postal there for a while? Mail menopause. Damien Broderick From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 05:54:35 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:24:35 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908233951.01cebee8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <6.1.1.1.0.20040908233951.01cebee8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040908225453fa24d8@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:40:26 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > >postal there for a while? > > Mail menopause. > > Damien Broderick > You'll find they were actually postmen-opausal. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From eugen at leitl.org Thu Sep 9 06:24:46 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 08:24:46 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) Message-ID: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Richard Reinholdt ----- From: Richard Reinholdt Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2004 13:51:06 -0700 To: pigdog at skunk.pigdog.org Subject: [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Reply-To: The Pigdog Mailing List From the current issue of the _SF Bay Guardian_: ---- Extropian trash By Annalee Newitz I HATE THE extropians. I just can't say enough bad things about their whole stupid, late 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced was inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, and (perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. Picture this: It's 1985, and a bunch of people, too young to have been hippies, too old to understand yet that Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Media Lab is doomed to be irrelevant, are still recovering from having grown up during the 1960s "rocket age." Now they're living in California doing boring jobs or going to stupid private universities, and the flying cars they were promised on The Jetsons are nowhere to be seen. Plus, nobody has cured cancer, the light-filled aliens haven't arrived to impart wisdom, and there still isn't an anti-aging drug they can take to preserve their wrinkle-free, preternatural tans. So they get into self-improvement, but with a high-tech twist. They call their movement "extropy" ? you know, like the opposite of "entropy," the process of slowing down and descending into chaos. Extropy is supposedly a way of always progressing, growing, and transforming oneself, particularly by using science. And the extropians decide that science is going to save them from everything, especially growing old and dying. It will be just like heaven, only with a lot more tantric sex and smart drugs. Some of them start theorizing that in the future they'll be able to upload their brains into computers. Others request that their bodies or heads be cryogenically frozen after they die so they can be revived, Futurama-style, in a far-distant future in which everything is perfect and glorious and subject only to the laws of extropy. You think I'm kidding, don't you? But I'm not. The extropian thing only got more popular all through the 1990s, riding the wave of dot-com psychosis into a mire of self-help delusions. Calling themselves "transhumanists" or "posthumanists," the extropians continue to preach longevity and techno-rapture and, occasionally, hedonism. Most of all, they proselytize for rampant individualism: it's all about achieving your dreams, making real life into science fiction so you can be whatever you want. It's precisely the kind of pseudo-religion that would appeal to people whose lifelong devotion to high-tech capitalism leaves them with no value system other than personal accumulation. After all, extropian heaven is automatically within reach if you can afford all the life-extending gadgets and pills that will supposedly hit the marketplace any day now. I suppose that's why various stripes of extropianism have flowered among professional geeks who want to believe there's something more to existence than coding all day. Of course, that something is just more of the very same life they're already leading ? which means they'll outlive their retirement on all that Google stock money. Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely has the potential to catch on, big time. First of all, it's already fairly popular among members of the nerd elite, who have money and control the blogosphere (I have a sudden urge to invent extropian blog conspiracy theories!). Maybe some of them can create an ExtroPAC that funds politicians who agree to support foolish longevity research. Plus, the extropians are a perfect fit for the U.S. political system because they appear to offer an alternative way of thinking while actually reinforcing the status quo. Extropians, for all their future worship, are part of the same cultural bent toward superstition that has led George W. Bush and other right-wingers to proclaim that stem cells are full of little souls, abortion is murder, global warming isn't a threat, and peer-to-peer networks are used primarily to disseminate child pornography. The only difference between a Bush conservative and a transhumanist is that conservatives project their fears onto technologies they don't understand, while transhumanists project their hopes. Either way, you've got a magical interpretation of science being advanced as a creepy political agenda. And let there be no doubt about it: the extropian agenda is creepy. Who wants to live forever in a world where only the richest people in developed countries will become immortal? It's not as if there's going to be a special cryogenics fund for everybody in Kenya and Chile. In order for people to live forever in the transhumanist future, some people will still have to live like trash. Sounds sort of like entropy to me. ---- http://www.sfbg.com/38/50/x_techsploitation.html Annalee Newitz (lycanthropy at techsploitation.com) is a surly media nerd and spazhumanist who would rather die than be an extropian. Her column also appears in Metro, Silicon Valley's weekly newspaper. _______________________________________________ pigdog mailing list pigdog at skunk.pigdog.org http://skunk.pigdog.org/mailman/listinfo/pigdog ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From maxm at mail.tele.dk Thu Sep 9 07:08:33 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:08:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk> Eugen Leitl wrote: >Extropian trash > >By Annalee Newitz > >I HATE THE extropians. I just can't say enough bad things about their whole >stupid, late 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced >was inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, and >(perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. > Low on research, high on attitude. I guess opinions are like assholes. Everobody has one. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From scerir at libero.it Thu Sep 9 09:45:57 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:45:57 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] mathscapes References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> Scientific American issued something special on the 100th anniversary of "Electrodynamics of moving bodies". http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?sc=top_nav [Below a short comment, by a good methematician, stolen from another forum] Much of interest, but the most interesting is the piece on the "Landscape" model of superstring theory. Basically, the idea is that the "local universe" has a geometry which dictates both its "space-time" structure and the behavior of its elementary particles. Specifically, in topological terms, one has a fiber bundle whose "base" is a 4-manifold space-time and whose fiber is a 6 manifold. There are, of course, additional geometric structures, viz., a Lorentz structure on the base - classical GR - and a geometry on the fiber which governs the behavior of strings, as well as dictating the local cosmological constant. Thus, the laws of GR emerge from the 4-dim geometry and "particle theory" from the 6-dim "hidden" geometry whose diameter is on the Planck scale. On this view, the only realizable local universes, represent local minima of a certain potential function. The not-so-Big Bang, in this model, is triggered by the transition of a single fiber to a new topology and geometry, which explosively ramifies, a la hyperinflation, into a new, largely stable mini-universe, such as ours. Mathematically and philosophically, this is a very attractive model, and neatly answers the theological version of the strong anthropic principle, as well as rendering rather pointless the perrenial question "What came before the Big Bang?" ----------- Something a little bit more physical, or less epiontic, can be found in this paper by Tegmark et al. http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0409072 From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 9 12:08:35 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 22:08:35 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Politics: Internet-based third party ? References: <2610-22004927204254990@M2W089.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <034801c49665$bbb4ad20$ec202dcb@homepc> Natasha wrote: > I'm quoting one of my professors: > > "Joe Trippi, campaign manager for Howard Dean, predicted > (on 'Charlie Rose' last week) that he is sure that an Internet-based > third party will emerge before 2008 with money comparable to > what the two established parties can raise. (It's supposedly in > his book _The Revolution will be Televised_.)" I don't think an internet based third party would make sense. The internet is a medium - a technology. It would be like having a bull-horn based party. Parties need to have some sort of manifesto and to operate within some sort of physical space that relates to resources. I think politics 101 is about resourcing. If there wasn't a shortage of anything there wouldn't be politics. If there is a shortage and any sort of competition then there will be. Living things have more potential to develop then their is space for them all to develop into. Brett Paatsch From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 13:02:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <01d701c49625$bb0a7e80$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040909130229.17527.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Emlyn wrote: > > At some point, you read an article describing something along the > > lines of "some guys opened up a cell, swapped the dna for carbon > > nanotubes, and created artificial life" and think ho hum, I wish > > there was something more interesting to read. > > Brett replied: > I'd be potentially very impressed myself, though the "some guys" bit > doesn't sound like a quote from a peer reviewed journal. > > > > John Grigg: > > Ahhh....., but actually it very well could be a quote taken from the > peer > reviewed journal entitled "Academy of Human Cellular and Stickshift > Automobile Mechanics, Greater Trenton New Jersey Chapter." > > As I understand, it is peer reviewed by only fully certified stand-up > guys who don't do you no wrong as long as you don't mess with their > very expensive lab equipment. > > Molecular biologists from other states give them a wide berth, but > women find them irresistable and claim with enough love and > understanding they will change. Hey Vinnie, I tink dis guys tryin' ta make funna us. Badda bing badda boom, I just snipped his tellameres. Thatt'll teach 'im ta make funna 'our friends'. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 13:08:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 06:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040909130821.31507.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> > Extropian trash > > By Annalee Newitz > > I HATE THE extropians. One more sign we are being taken seriously.... a funny article too... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 9 14:31:19 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 09:31:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] mathscapes In-Reply-To: <000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk> <000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040909092635.01b636c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:45 AM 9/9/2004 +0200, Serafino wrote: >Something a little bit more physical, or less epiontic, An interesting term. Do you mean it in Zurek's sense, where the ontic is entangled (so to speak) with the epistemic? < Surprisingly, it turns out that the usual central problem of the interpretation of the state vector ? the dual (epistemic and ontic, and hence epiontic) role of quantum states which on one hand encode the information observers have about the microscopic, but on the other hand are the only elements of the theory that can account for the objectively existing states of the macroscopic systems ? proves to be an advantage: It helps eliminate subjectivity of classical definitions, and allows one to define and compute probabilities as tools for predicting outcomes of a single experiment. > (arxiv.org/pdf/quant-ph/0405161) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 17:23:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040908223508.01cb7000@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040909172318.71515.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. Spike's ass isn't big enough to stick a stamp to..... Now, be advised that post offices are 'gun free zones'. Postal workers are most likely to go postal on you if you pick on them too much about going postal.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 17:26:45 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:26:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <000401c49624$d90db600$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040909172645.40852.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > At 08:08 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Turns out postal workers have no sense of humor. > > > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. > > > > Damien Broderick > > They don't like the compound verb "go postal." They > also do not like the tasteless and offensive gag that goes: > > Q: What does it mean when the post office flag is half mast? > > A: They're hiring. > > > Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > postal there for a while? Since a Lockheeed worker did > likewise last year, I suppose the post office isn't the > only job that can cause people to snap and murder. Could > coincidence alone explain those three (?) incidents? Was > it three? Or only two? They are rather more frequent than that, but they noticably tend to happen in high gun control states. The fact that post offices are gun free zones shouldn't be seen as a coincidence (along with school shootings at gun free school zones). However, a number of postal workers I've talked to insist that the incidence of violent crime at the post office is actually lower than in the rest of corporate America, its just that the USPS has SO MANY employees that the number of incidents is high due to proportionality. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 17:29:25 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 10:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040908225453fa24d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040909172925.42390.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 23:40:26 -0500, Damien Broderick > wrote: > > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > > >postal there for a while? > > > > Mail menopause. > > > > Damien Broderick > > > > You'll find they were actually postmen-opausal. Of course, they prefer Zip-guns the most ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From scerir at libero.it Thu Sep 9 17:36:31 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:36:31 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] mathscapes References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <41400171.7060309@mail.tele.dk><000301c49651$cf5cf670$42b71b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20040909092635.01b636c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <010601c49693$8cd22e00$22b61b97@administxl09yj> > >Something a little bit more physical, or less epiontic, [Damien] > An interesting term. Do you mean it in Zurek's sense, > where the ontic is entangled (so to speak) with > the epistemic? Well, yes. There are perhaps different kinds of epionticism. But in general the number of authors believing that "reality" is not just something that "kicks back", is increasing. It is not just a matter of "information", of translation of physics (and biology? etc.) in "information science". "Information" is of course physical (Landauer). But physics is much reacher than information science (i.e. it is difficult to translate states like "quantum gloves" in information language, usually lacking proper orientations). It is a matter of "episteme", of "potentiality/propensity", of "relational". "Fields in empty space have physical reality; the medium that supports them does not. Correlations have physical reality; that which they correlate does not." [DM] A simple - but not trivial - level of epionticism..... "Do we need more spatial dimensions, no problem. Space is our invention anyway, so we can use as many dimensions as we need. If we want to use non-Euclidean geometry, no problem. Geometry is our invention, too. In fact, all these models should not be interpreted as elements of reality but merely our idiosyncratic descriptions (pictures) of observations. The 10^100 possible string theories supports the notion that there may be many models that do an equally good job. Indeed, the lack of a unique model proves my case." [VS] Then, more technical levels like these. "While the general superposition principle, from which nonlocality is derived, requires nonlocal states (that is, a kinematical nonlocality), most physicists seem to regard as conceivable only a dynamical nonlocality (such as Einstein's spooky action at a distance). The latter would even have to include superluminal actions. In contrast, nonlocal entanglement must already "exist" before any crucially related local but spatially separated events occur. For example, in proposed so-called quantum teleportation experiments, a nonlocal state has to be carefully prepared initially - so nothing has to be ported any more. After this preparation, the relevant state "exists but is not there". Or in similar words: the physical state is 'ou topos' (at no place), although it is not utopic according to quantum theory."[DZ] "During the recent decades, more and more superpositions have been confirmed to exist by clever experimentalists. We have learned about SQUIDs, mesoscopic Schoedinger cats, Bose condensates, and even superpositions of a macroscopic current running in opposite directions (very different from two currents canceling each other). Microscopic elements of quantum computers (which simultaneously perform different calculations in one superposition) have been successfully designed. All these superpositions may be (or must be) observed as individual physical states. Hence, their components "exist" simultaneously. As long as no unpredictable events have occurred, they do not form ensembles of possible states which would represent incomplete information about the true state." [DZ] "Entanglement is then achieved as a consequence of two facts: first, the impossibility to determine from the detection event which atom emitted the photon; second, the projection postulate in Quantum Mechanics, which indicates that after the detection the state of the atoms is projected onto the one which is compatible with the outcome of the measurement." [Cabrillo et al.] "The superposition of amplitudes is only valid if there is no way to know, even in principle, which path the particle took. It is important to realize that this does not imply that an observer actually takes note of what happens. It is sufficient to destroy the interference pattern, if the path information is accessible in principle from the experiment or even if it is dispersed in the environment and beyond any technical possibility to be recovered, but in principle 'still out there' ". [AZ] Finally, an epiontic mathscape, like this one. "So in the end, everyone was right, in a way. Information is lost in topologically non trivial metrics, like the eternal black hole. On the other hand, information is preserved in topologically trivial metrics. The confusion and paradox arose because people thought classically, in terms of a single topology for spacetime. It was either R4, or a black hole. But the Feynman sum over histories, allows it to be both at once. One can not tell which topology contributed the observation, any more than one can tell which slit the electron went through, in the two slits experiment. All that observation at infinity can determine, is that there is a unitary mapping from initial states, to final, and that information is not lost." [SH] From jonkc at att.net Thu Sep 9 17:55:22 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:55:22 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040903154950.01b04ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> >Sure, computers might someday awaken into something resembling > human consciousness, but we have no metrics to describe that >awakening and thus no objective way to recognize it if it happens. >How would you test a claim like that? Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; in short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method when you find a machine that claims to be conscious. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 9 18:07:26 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 11:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20040909180726.25273.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > >Sure, computers might someday awaken into something resembling > > human consciousness, but we have no metrics to describe that > >awakening and thus no objective way to recognize it if it happens. > >How would you test a claim like that? > > Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a > method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; > in short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method > when you find a machine that claims to be conscious. Yeah, but they don't taste as good... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 9 19:53:03 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 15:53:03 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! Message-ID: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of these statements below. Enjoy! Natasha "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." --Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." --Chairman of IBM, 1943 "I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year." --The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, 1957 "But what ... is it good for?" --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip. "There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home." --President, Chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977 "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." --Western Union internal memo, 1876. "The wireless music box has no imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?" --David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urgings for investment in the radio in the 1920s. "The concept is interesting and well-formed, but in order to earn better than a 'C,' the idea must be feasible." --A Yale University management professor in response to Fred Smith's paper proposing reliable overnight delivery service. (Smith went on to found Federal Express Corp.) "Who the hell wants to hear actors talk?" --Warner Brothers, 1927. "I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper." --Gary Cooper on his decision not to take the leading role in "Gone With The Wind." "A cookie store is a bad idea. Besides, the market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make." --Response to Debbi Fields' idea of starting Mrs. Fields' Cookies. "We don't like their sound, and guitar music is on the way out." --Decca Recording Co. rejecting the Beatles, 1962. "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." --President, Royal Society, 1895. "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." --Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M "Post-It" Notepads. "So we went to Atari and said, 'Hey, we've got this amazing thing, even built with some of your parts, and what do you think about funding us? Or we' ll give it to you. We just want to do it. Pay our salary, we'll come work for you.' And they said, 'No.' So then we went to Hewlett-Packard, and they said, 'Hey, we don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.'" --Apple Computer Inc. founder Steve Jobs on attempts to get Atari and H-P interested in his and Steve Wozniak's personal computer. "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." --1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket work. "You want to have consistent and uniform muscle development across all of your muscles? It can't be done. It's just a fact of life. You just have to accept inconsistent muscle development as an unalterable condition of weight training." --Response to Arthur Jones, who solved the "unsolvable" problem by inventing Nautilus. "Drill for oil? You mean drill into the ground to try and find oil? You're crazy." --Drillers who Edwin L. Drake tried to enlist to his project to drill for oil in 1859. "Stocks have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." --Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929. "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." --Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre. "Everything that can be invented has been invented." --Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". --Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872 "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." --British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873. "640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Bill Gates, 1981 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From nanogirl at halcyon.com Thu Sep 9 20:45:54 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:45:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? References: <20040909172925.42390.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a101c496ae$02fda630$1db71218@Nano> There were issues in the work environment, lousy contracts, low wages, over stressed working conditions (doubled up work loads), and health care benefit issues. Apparently letter carriers have had physical injuries due to being weighed down by what used to be just a load of mail in their satchel, but now also includes carrying extra mail on their arm, while on longer routes but with the same pay. They are also required to continue these walk routes no matter what the winter weather happens to be and have suffered frost bite etc. in hours of below zero temperatures. There are also stories of workers being stood behind by management, who time them using a stop watch while sorting the mail or while on breaks. Some supervisors have been reported as (and admitted to) spying on route carriers in unmarked cars or simply following them to make sure their route is eight hours long. If you do bad on route or in the mail room you get written up and followed more, if you do well you are given larger loads. Supervisors have been told to be strict on workers for small infractions and routinely call workers "bodies", this and other behaviors cause workers to feel they are treated as less than human. There is even a story where a woman's house was on fire, the supervisor was called and told, but did not notify the woman until her route was finished, her father died in the fire. Apparently the supervisor didn't want anyone to take her place, because he would then have to give the replacement carrier "overtime" wages, so he wanted to keep her. Workers often experience repetitive motion injuries as well as the mental numbness and back troubles. This has become a larger problem with the jump in the amount of mail being processed. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." > > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > > >postal there for a while? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kpj at sics.se Thu Sep 9 20:47:12 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Thu, 09 Sep 2004 22:47:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: Message from "John K Clark" of "Thu, 09 Sep 2004 13:55:22 EDT." <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> John K Clark : | |Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a |method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; in |short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method when you |find a machine that claims to be conscious. As there currently (2004) does not exist any known meat puppets, the above method works for meat units. As there does exist known machine puppets, the above method does NOT work for non-meat units. Simply remote control a robot to make the robot say "I am conscious". I believe most humans would react as in the film "Short Circuit 2" [URL: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096101/] if a machine told them "I am conscious.". Your mileage may vary. From paul.bridger at gmail.com Thu Sep 9 23:11:56 2004 From: paul.bridger at gmail.com (Paul Bridger) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:11:56 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> It's almost like a parody of the fact-free ad-hominem attack rant. Very amusing. :) Paul Bridger From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 00:16:31 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:46:31 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd from thespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040909171666ec039c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:11:56 +1200, Paul Bridger wrote: > It's almost like a parody of the fact-free ad-hominem attack rant. > Very amusing. :) > > Paul Bridger The funny thing is, that if you go read the rest of her articles on AltNet, she's very pro tech, pro science, for instance she's against stem cell research bans. Her stuff boils down to an essentially vapid, too-cool-to-be-cool more-ironic-than-thou attitude overload, heavily interspersed with I-bought-an-iPod-aren't-I-cool masquerading as god-this-new-iPod-is-so-lame. But she is a bone-fide technophile, (although she'd probably deny that). The heavy reaction to extropians... well we do give off a terribly culty smugness. Everyone's first reaction seems to be a similar revulsion, except maybe if you are a native of California. Sadly, I think the techno-worship and elite-is-good memes are hiding the real stuff, the ideas about morphological freedom and the ensuing ramifications for humanism based on the idea of a fluid human nature. And that'll continue, because the interesting ideas of transhumanism are subtle, while the superficial stuff is, of course, all available in easily digestable sound-bites and meme-blobs. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 01:22:51 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:22:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd fromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <010f01c496d4$b0a51ae0$1db71218@Nano> She also wrote these elegant pieces: http://www.techsploitation.com/socrates/riotfuck.html g` ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Bridger To: ExI chat list Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2004 4:11 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwd fromthespian at doitnow.com) It's almost like a parody of the fact-free ad-hominem attack rant. Very amusing. :) Paul Bridger _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 01:43:49 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 18:43:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <20040909172318.71515.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001f01c496d7$9f1a6a20$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Mike Lorrey > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? > > --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > > You're lucky they didn't go postal on your ass. > > Spike's ass isn't big enough to stick a stamp to..... Hey I resemble that comment. Besides stamps are really big these days, bigger than they used to be. So one might cover both buns. {8^D > Now, be advised that post offices are 'gun free zones'...Mike Lorrey The trouble with gun laws is that criminals don't obey laws. Those who slay their colleagues are criminals. Oh dear, this thread was intended to be lighthearted and thought provoking, but has taken a dark turn. spike From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Sep 10 01:59:56 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Natasha wrote: > While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone > says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed > 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of > these statements below. What is gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied -sure. But it is possible that cryonics will never work. This is essentially my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking a close look at the arguments made in its favour). It is also possible that human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is unlikely and turns on the definition of human). Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an essential article of faith to extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, if that one does not believe in cryonics? I thought you would have said yes once, that it turns on the evidence and on how one examines propositions and beliefs. That extropians have no sacred cow beliefs including cryonics. Am I wrong? Brett Paatsch From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 10 02:57:01 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 19:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040910025701.68562.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an > essential article of faith to > extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, > if that one does > not believe in cryonics? >From my perspective, there is no problem here. I consider myself an extropian, yet I do not believe absolutely that cryonics will work. It might work - there is no solid proof for or against it. Thus, I believe it is worth trying as a last-ditch effort when more reliable options (like living) are no longer possible. Others who share our goals disagree, and that is fine. The destination is the important thing. The specific means of getting there only matter insofar as the destinations said means are likely to take us to. (For instance, a cultist preaching that the enlightenment we seek will be ours if we abandon all technology would not be extropian, for one can quite easily show that abandoning all technology would in fact only bring tragedy and misery despite the cultist's promise.) From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 03:23:46 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:53:46 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Natasha wrote: > > > While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone > > says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed > > 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of > > these statements below. > > What is gratuitously asserted can be gratuitously denied -sure. > > But it is possible that cryonics will never work. This is essentially > my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking > a close look at the arguments made in its favour). Bold. > It is also possible that > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > Baring apocalypse, that's unlikely. Are you basing this on the Hayflick limit? > Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an essential article of faith to > extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, if that one does > not believe in cryonics? No specific technologies have anything to do with extropianism or transhumanism. > I thought you would have said yes once, that it turns on the evidence > and on how one examines propositions and beliefs. That extropians > have no sacred cow beliefs including cryonics. > > Am I wrong? > > Brett Paatsch AFAIK, you are correct. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 03:26:28 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 12:56:28 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04090920267f5cf481@mail.gmail.com> > > It is also possible that > > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > > > > Baring apocalypse, that's unlikely. Are you basing this on the Hayflick limit? Oops, answered this bit out of context, apologies. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 03:58:11 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 20:58:11 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> References: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <7a32170504090920585a02adee@mail.gmail.com> Fortunately (or unfortunately) it's still an academic question as to how humanity will respond to a self-proclaimed "conscious" machine. Personally I think if a machine were sufficiently convincing, most people would *treat* it as a sentient entity regardless of whether they actually belived it was conscious, intelligent, sentient, whatever. Think about the way people interact with their pets (especially dogs) when there is only the most minimal degree of communication between them. Imagine what it will be like when (not if) you have a robot with whom you can debate such things as Kerry vs. Bush, religion vs. atheism, altruism vs. selfishness. Even if the robot were only responding based upon human-designed algorhythmic manipulations of massive on-board data sets, if it "feels" like you are conversing with someone who is making sense, will it matter if that someone is "really" sentient (whatever that means)? After all isn't it true that human-to-human debates are just two beings applying complex algorhythmic manipulations of massive neuron based data sets? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Zero On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 22:47:12 +0200, KPJ wrote: > John K Clark : > | > |Well, when you encounter a fellow meat creature I'l bet you have a > |method of determining if they are conscious and not sleeping or dead; in > |short you study the way they act. I suggest you try the same method when you > |find a machine that claims to be conscious. > > As there currently (2004) does not exist any known meat puppets, the above > method works for meat units. > > As there does exist known machine puppets, the above method does NOT work > for non-meat units. > > Simply remote control a robot to make the robot say "I am conscious". > > I believe most humans would react as in the film "Short Circuit 2" > [URL: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096101/] if a machine told them > "I am conscious.". > > Your mileage may vary. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From jonkc at att.net Fri Sep 10 04:15:00 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:15:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity References: <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <003901c496ec$cab8e660$61ff4d0c@hal2001> "KPJ" > Simply remote control a robot to make the robot say "I am conscious". I would expect more so that behavior wouldn't be enough to convince me it was conscious, but your mileage may vary. You have acted in a more sophisticated way than this very simple robot so I'm more convinced that you are conscious, but of course, I can never know for sure. I've never met you so I don't even know for certain that you are made of meat. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 04:23:00 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 21:23:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? In-Reply-To: <00a101c496ae$02fda630$1db71218@Nano> References: <20040909172925.42390.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> <00a101c496ae$02fda630$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <7a3217050409092123520c13d7@mail.gmail.com> Not to mention the on-the-job hazards. My step dad was a letter carrier before going to law school. After he got admitted to the bar the majority of his cases were dog bites suffered by his former co-workers. I still can't believe how routinely those folks were getting munched on the job. Imagine delivering mail to someone with a vicious dog in the yard who is able on occasion to slip his leash or hop the fence. Imagine getting attacked by that dog and, after recouperating from the attack having to continue delivering mail to the offending dog owner. Why that alone is enough to make one want to go postal, or in my step dad's case get an education and get out of that line of work. Zero ----- Original Message ----- From: Gina Miller Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 13:45:54 -0700 Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] why do we stop laughing? To: ExI chat list There were issues in the work environment, lousy contracts, low wages, over stressed working conditions (doubled up work loads), and health care benefit issues. Apparently letter carriers have had physical injuries due to being weighed down by what used to be just a load of mail in their satchel, but now also includes carrying extra mail on their arm, while on longer routes but with the same pay. They are also required to continue these walk routes no matter what the winter weather happens to be and have suffered frost bite etc. in hours of below zero temperatures. There are also stories of workers being stood behind by management, who time them using a stop watch while sorting the mail or while on breaks. Some supervisors have been reported as (and admitted to) spying on route carriers in unmarked cars or simply following them to make sure their route is eight hours long. If you do bad on route or in the mail room you get written up and followed more, if you do well you are given larger loads. Supervisors have been told to be strict on workers for small infractions and routinely call workers "bodies", this and other behaviors cause workers to feel they are treated as less than human. There is even a story where a woman's house was on fire, the supervisor was called and told, but did not notify the woman until her route was finished, her father died in the fire. Apparently the supervisor didn't want anyone to take her place, because he would then have to give the replacement carrier "overtime" wages, so he wanted to keep her. Workers often experience repetitive motion injuries as well as the mental numbness and back troubles. This has become a larger problem with the jump in the amount of mail being processed. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." > > At 09:24 PM 9/8/2004 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > > >Has anyone an explanation of why postal workers were going > > >postal there for a while? > > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Fri Sep 10 05:16:26 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:16:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <7a32170504090920585a02adee@mail.gmail.com> References: <004401c49696$426124e0$6bff4d0c@hal2001> <200409092047.i89KlCN00602@r2d2.sics.se> <7a32170504090920585a02adee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040910051625.GT1457@leitl.org> On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:58:11PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... If it first takes your job, asking for a lower salary, and then takes your body for fuel and atoms questions about "is it conscious, I wonder?" are ridiculous. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 07:06:43 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:06:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash Message-ID: <02e801c49704$bd3cac70$1db71218@Nano> Okay I wrote up a response to the article that we read about us. I would like you all to read it and especially Natasha, let me know if it's stamped to go and I will send it to the newspaper and to her email address. This was the best I could do considering my time constrants. g` Extropian trash This is my personal response to the article that appeared in the San Francisco Bay Guardian http://www.sfbg.com/38/50/x_techsploitation.html . I wrote this article because I felt compelled to clarify some of the uninformed statements made in this article. This response has not been written by the Extropians, the opinions expressed are my own. 1.)I HATE THE extropians. 1.) "Hate" (capitalized non the less) is a strong word from some one I have never met and has never met me. Even though I strongly disagree with the author's opinions regarding my Extropian friends, I do not hate the author and this dialog would not benefit anyone, including myself, especially if I am trying to establish a rational point. 2.) I just can't say enough bad things about their whole stupid, late 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced was inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, and (perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. 2.) I am not a roboticist nor a Christian, and Heinlein did not influence me to be interested in anything or support anyone. 3.) Picture this: It's 1985, and a bunch of people, too young to have been hippies, too old to understand yet that Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Media Lab is doomed to be irrelevant, are still recovering from having grown up during the 1960s "rocket age." 3.) I was not raised in the 1960's and in 1985 I was still in school. In fact, I believe I was born the same year as the author of this article. So this sociological analysis is a generalization, and an unfounded one at that. I have met many Extropians of many ages, with many diverse personalities, interests and belief systems, who do not fit into the above described box. 4.) Now they're living in California 4.) We live all over America as well as over seas. I am currently not living in California. However, I do understand the association that is being drawn, technology and Silicon Valley are being married together here, however a location does not dictate a state of mind. 5.) doing boring jobs or going to stupid private universities, 5.) First let me say that I am surprised that private universities are described as "stupid". I personally have not been to enough private universities to study the curriculum or how well the system functions, nor have I studied the statistics to determine or form an opinion on the current bar of education at these facilities as compared to other universities, but perhaps the author has done so, and has simply left the evidence out of the article. I also do not know where the information of Extropians have "boring jobs" or attending "private universities" was received from. The word "boring" is highly subjective, so what is boring for one is not boring for another, thus the statement itself is speculative. I know many Extropians who do very exciting, intellectual and productive work. I also am married to a Harvard PhD graduate, my best friend attended M.I.T. and many of my Extropian friends have attended a myriad of schools, and some have not attended any. Their jobs, are also just as diverse, from artists to astronomers. 6.) and the flying cars they were promised on The Jetsons are nowhere to be seen. Plus, nobody has cured cancer, 6.) This is a very, very, crucial point that I am glad the author has pointed out. In 1993 nanotechnology was introduced to me. When I realized the potential benefits that future applications of this emerging technology could have on society, I began my research (see www.nanoindustries.com). In particular one of the most intriguing is the impact it will have on biotechnology. The theorized treatments and monitors could change the face of medicine. It has been over a decade now and I have now been happily married to a man for four years (married 2000), the love of my life, who helped organize one of the first nanotechnology conferences, wrote many articles and edited books on the topic, and is a loving, caring person (see #12). It was our common interest in nanotechnology that in fact, brought us together. In May, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, a form of cancer, and is currently undergoing chemotherapy. Would I prefer that my husband could have the advantages of nanotechnology or other advances as an alternative to the tiring and immune suppressive chemotherapy that he is now undergoing, absolutely. Would I like the same to be available for others, absolutely. We both would like to see the continuation and aide of medical and other advances continue in a safe and educated manner. Today when you are ill, you go to the hospital to receive treatment, it's not considered selfish (see #11) we access technology to help alleviate our pain and cure what ails us. We use technology to communicate via website, like I have, like the author of this article has. Just because technology is often scary when it is not here yet, we can not ignore it's usefulness, even in today's world. This doesn't mean that we can not contemplate the benefits and the risks either, that is exactly the sort of debate that goes on within the Extropian community. How do we guide, how do we prevent, etc. It was many years after my interest in nanotechnology that I discovered the Extropians (I believe it was 1998?). I found a place where I could address the big questions in life in an intelligent forum with insightful people. There was not only discussion of my particular interest, but also philosophical issues, art, science, language, psychology, music, space, the universe, genetics, current events, history, biology, ethics, the environment, the mind, the list could go on and on. The topics are not one sided, opinions vary and these are expressed in healthy debate. This type of dialog is an example of how communication is often education. 7.) the light-filled aliens haven't arrived to impart wisdom, 7.) Do I really have to express that I have never expected such an arrival? 8.) and there still isn't an anti-aging drug they can take to preserve their wrinkle-free, preternatural tans. 8.) I have no idea what she means by this? I don't even tan, in fact, I glow in the dark. 9.) So they get into self-improvement, but with a high-tech twist. They call their movement "extropy" - you know, like the opposite of "entropy," the process of slowing down and descending into chaos. Extropy is supposedly a way of always progressing, growing, and transforming oneself, particularly by using science. And the extropians decide that science is going to save them from everything, especially growing old and dying. It will be just like heaven, only with a lot more tantric sex and smart drugs. 9.) I have never heard the term "heaven" used to describe the future that we hope for. What I have heard is a need for resolution of the problems that we currently face. Every day we watch the news and are all somberly aware that there are things that we need to work on. We live in a world of suffering, hunger, disease, pollution, why would we not try to investigate and support solutions for these problems? 10.) Some of them start theorizing that in the future they'll be able to upload their brains into computers. Others request that their bodies or heads be cryogenically frozen after they die so they can be revived, Futurama-style, in a far-distant future in which everything is perfect and glorious and subject only to the laws of extropy. 10.) Cryonics suspension does not mean that those who are revived will be revived in a "far-distant, Futurama-style" future, but rather when the technology to revive them becomes available, when ever that is. That could be five years from now or a hundred years from now. The goal is not to wake up in a "perfect" futuristic world, but merely to wake up! Something else to note: not everyone who is an Extropian is signed up for cryonics and not everyone signed up for cryonics is an Extropian. 11.) You think I'm kidding, don't you? But I'm not. The extropian thing only got more popular all through the 1990s, riding the wave of dot-com psychosis into a mire of self-help delusions. Calling themselves "transhumanists" or "posthumanists," the extropians continue to preach longevity and techno-rapture and, occasionally, hedonism. Most of all, they proselytize for rampant individualism: it's all about achieving your dreams, making real life into science fiction so you can be whatever you want. 11.) This goes back to the answer above (#9), the descriptions used here "self-help delusions", "occasionally, hedonism" (#6), and "rampant individualism" are not at all applicable descriptions when you look at the fact that our group is interested in benefiting society as a whole. Of course if you imagine a world that is better for all, you can also imagine a world that is better for the individual. There are many benefits in the world today that can be seen as benefiting the whole and the individual, much of the advances accomplished today do so. Supporting technology does not mean that we believe anybody can do "whatever you want", we are not envisioning anarchy. Our moral fibre is intact. Our vision of the future is to utilize advancements to achieve a healthy environment, healthy bodies, healthy minds, and general well being. This is the same vision that we have for the majority used today in bringing all of our advances into our daily lives, at the doctors, at work, in our pockets and into our kitchens and living rooms. And to quote "it's all about achieving your dreams", when did that become a faux pas? Isn't that what our grandmothers and mothers told us since we were small children? So isn't the alternative to say, don't follow your dreams, be unhappy, that doesn't make any sense to me. 12.) It's precisely the kind of pseudo-religion that would appeal to people whose lifelong devotion to high-tech capitalism leaves them with no value system other than personal accumulation. 12.) Extropy is not a religious structure. My personal experience with fellow members has not displayed the lack of "value system" that the author describes. It's shocking that we are some how mis-interpreted as non-human and non-hearted folk, just because we want to see technology continue to help solve the worlds problems. Extropians are just as caring, family oriented and generous as any of the most kind people anybody else knows in their own lives. There have been times in my life where I turned to my Extropian friends and they all came to my aide in my time of need (#11), and I am referring emotional need (#14). We all have families and friends, we all have compassion and there are those of us who are not well enough off to invest in the "high-tech" companies or even to "accumulate" things. If materialism was a requirement, I and others certainly wouldn't be there. 13.) After all, extropian heaven is automatically within reach if you can afford all the life-extending gadgets and pills that will supposedly hit the marketplace any day now. I suppose that's why various stripes of extropianism have flowered among professional geeks who want to believe there's something more to existence than coding all day. Of course, that something is just more of the very same life they're already leading - which means they'll outlive their retirement on all that Google stock money. 13.) Again, I am speaking personally here, I have no Google investment (money again?), and I do not take pills, except for "Flintstones Complete". But I do strongly disagree with the idea that taking protein powders or life extension pills is wrong. Why? Are vitamins wrong? Is medication wrong? Is healthy eating wrong? Is exercise wrong? It's the same thing. It's a personal choice to care for your body so you can live a long and healthy life for yourself and those around you. 14.) Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely has the potential to catch on, big time. First of all, it's already fairly popular among members of the nerd elite, who have money and control the blogosphere (I have a sudden urge to invent extropian blog conspiracy theories!). 14.) Why is there this instance that we all have money, I imagine some of us do, but if I do, please kindly send me the safe deposit key so that I may access it. During this time with my husbands illness and our insurance companies lack of ability to pay for the treatments, we sure could use it. People who speculate on theories, discuss and support the possibilities of technology or the future, do not need money to do so. 15.) Maybe some of them can create an ExtroPAC that funds politicians who agree to support foolish longevity research. Plus, the extropians are a perfect fit for the U.S. political system because they appear to offer an alternative way of thinking while actually reinforcing the status quo. 15.) Extropy is not associated with any political party. 16.) Extropians, for all their future worship, 16.) We do not "worship" the future, as the future is yet untold, we are only discussing and preparing for it to be a better future than days gone by. 17.) are part of the same cultural bent toward superstition that has led George W. Bush and other right-wingers to proclaim that stem cells are full of little souls, abortion is murder, global warming isn't a threat, and peer-to-peer networks are used primarily to disseminate child pornography. The only difference between a Bush conservative and a transhumanist is that conservatives project their fears onto technologies they don't understand, while transhumanists project their hopes. Either way, you've got a magical interpretation of science being advanced as a creepy political agenda. 17.) This analogy is somewhat confusing. While I agree with the insinuation the author has regarding George W. Bush (and I am speaking for myself, not the Extropians), I am not clear on how we are just like him except for "projecting hope"? This is a very odd metaphor since the author almost seems to be agreeing with my ideologies so the parallel is almost the proof! 18.) And let there be no doubt about it: the extropian agenda is creepy. Who wants to live forever in a world where only the richest people in developed countries will become immortal? It's not as if there's going to be a special cryogenics fund for everybody in Kenya and Chile. 18.) Extropy is not just cryonic suspension (the term cryogenics is a related procedural general term). Yes Extropians see the advantages of future technological applications, much in the same we are currently living with the benefits of modern medicine. However, not every single Extropian is signed up for cryonic suspension. Since the Extropian movement does not include only members who believe in "such and such technology" it is more generally open since emerging technologies tend to relate to each other. Another point is, that it is not expensive to sign up for cryonics, if you opt to pay by simply paying a standard insurance payment rather than a flat fee. Nanotechnology for example would give those who live in poverty access to manufacture their own supplies for practically no cost due to it's use of raw materials. 19.) In order for people to live forever in the transhumanist future, some people will still have to live like trash. Sounds sort of like entropy to me. 19.) I'm not sure what the author means by "live like trash". If I were to assume that she meant those who are not financially secure, then I would also assume those who are not, might find the "trash" reference objectionable. With that said, there are very wide distances between the rich and the poor in the world we in live in today (#18). Many of the technologies we as Extropians discuss, aim to shorten that distance. 20.) Annalee Newitz (lycanthropy at techsploitation.com) is a surly media nerd and spazhumanist who would rather die than be an extropian. Her column also appears in Metro, Silicon Valley's weekly newspaper. 20.) I tried to look the word "spazhumanist" up, but apparently it's not a real word. Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 07:49:10 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:49:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org><3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> <010f01c496d4$b0a51ae0$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> What's really blowing my mind is after I wrote the response I found this article by her that advocates nanotech!? http://www.alternet.org/story/16629 Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of advanced technology, and is then against those who support it? Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From zero.powers at gmail.com Fri Sep 10 08:22:16 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 01:22:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> References: <20040909062446.GV1457@leitl.org> <3fec8940409091611133f149@mail.gmail.com> <010f01c496d4$b0a51ae0$1db71218@Nano> <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <7a3217050409100122107cb44b@mail.gmail.com> Gina: As Emlyn pointed out earlier, she is really every bit the techie. But she's also a professional opinion giver. She earns her keep by giving opinions that sell. I have no problem with that. It's better than being a crime boss. But the fact is that you are not going to get her to retract her stated opinions, not matter how reasonable and eloquent your response to her article. That just wouldn't sell. My guess is that she's probably lurking this list and, if you want her to know you think she's full of it, you probably have nothing to do other than post your opinion here. Bottom line for her is she has to write opinions her editors and readers consider to be reasonable. Given the fairly wide-spread pejorative descriptions given of Extropians (and even such "main stream" figures as Eric Drexler), she would likely be written off as a looney by her higher-ups (not to mention her "public") if she came out in support of Extropians. The path she has taken is the safe one, and the only reasonable one she can take if she expects to continue earning a living as a professional opinion giver. My advice: Don't waste your time responding to her. Your energies would be much better spent putting together the next installment of Nanogirl News (which I, for one, always look forward to). Zero ----- Original Message ----- From: Gina Miller Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 00:49:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian at doitnow.com) To: ExI chat list What's really blowing my mind is after I wrote the response I found this article by her that advocates nanotech!? http://www.alternet.org/story/16629 Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of advanced technology, and is then against those who support it? Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Sep 10 10:40:17 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:40:17 +1000 Subject: That "human" thing (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com><03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc><710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc04090920267f5cf481@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <050d01c49722$93c1cb50$ec202dcb@homepc> Emlyn wrote: > > > It is also possible that > > > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > > > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > > > > > > > Baring apocalypse, that's unlikely. Are you basing this on the Hayflick limit? > > Oops, answered this bit out of context, apologies. No apology necessary. And no I wasn't basing this on the Hayflick limit. I'm a stem cell campaigner. I learnt to recognize how important language can be when I heard Senator Brian Harradine of Tasmania trying to corral some of Australia's leading scientists into an admission that an embryo is a human being. Human because what other form of life would it be - its clearly alive, and "being" because it exists. Harradine didn't nail the scientists (on that occassion) but a lot of less politically savvy folk do get nailed. And frankly they deserve too if they go into a political charged environment like embryonic stem cell research and they haven't got straightened out in their own minds that human life does in fact take place on a number of levels, including the cellular one. A cancer cell can be a human life. Heck if it is alive and a human cancer cell it is a form of human life. Clearly all forms of human life are not equivalent even morally even by the standards of people who have an essentially conservative Christian worldview. So my point above way not that some decedents of folk that call themselves humans will not at some stage have lifespans of greater than 123 years. I suspect that they will - but it will not be easy to get to that either scientifically or politically. To get there politically I think we will need to hone the terminology we use better or we will not be able to have the enabling (and necessary) debates. By the time life spans of 123 years are generally expected I suspect the term "human" may have fallen into disuse. It may have needed to to enable the ethical discussion of rights and responsibilities of persons in society to move onto the next level. Regards, Brett Paatsch From maxm at mail.tele.dk Fri Sep 10 11:09:01 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 13:09:01 +0200 Subject: That "human" thing (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <050d01c49722$93c1cb50$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com><03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc><710b78fc040909202358281d8@mail.gmail.com> <710b78fc04090920267f5cf481@mail.gmail.com> <050d01c49722$93c1cb50$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <41418B4D.8060308@mail.tele.dk> Brett Paatsch wrote: >I'm a stem cell campaigner. I learnt to recognize how important language >can be when I heard Senator Brian Harradine of Tasmania trying to >corral some of Australia's leading scientists into an admission that an >embryo is a human being. Human because what other form of life would >it be - its clearly alive, and "being" because it exists. > It's a pretty clever argument. But by that argument a fresh drop of blood, or piece of skin is also a human being. regards Max M Rasmussen, Denmark From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 12:19:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:19:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sterling, Wired, and the Singularity In-Reply-To: <20040910051625.GT1457@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20040910121932.53948.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Thu, Sep 09, 2004 at 08:58:11PM -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > > > If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... > > If it first takes your job, asking for a lower salary, and then takes > your body for fuel and atoms questions about "is it conscious, I > wonder?" are ridiculous. People who talk about ducks to define what is and isn't something always seem to forget about platypuses.... they have rounded bills, webbed feet, lay eggs, and spend most of their time in the water.... and are not ducks. If you could teach a platypus to say "AFLAC", would you call it a duck? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 12:47:39 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 05:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash In-Reply-To: <02e801c49704$bd3cac70$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20040910124739.9939.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> too self-serious, you should try to deconstruct her arguments with similar scorn and humor --- Gina Miller wrote: > Okay I wrote up a response to the article that we read about us. I > would like you all to read it and especially Natasha, let me know if > it's stamped to go and I will send it to the newspaper and to her > email address. This was the best I could do considering my time > constrants. g` > > Extropian trash > > This is my personal response to the article that appeared in the San > Francisco Bay Guardian > http://www.sfbg.com/38/50/x_techsploitation.html . I wrote this > article because I felt compelled to clarify some of the uninformed > statements made in this article. This response has not been written > by the Extropians, the opinions expressed are my own. > > > 1.)I HATE THE extropians. > 1.) "Hate" (capitalized non the less) is a strong word from some one > I have never met and has never met me. Even though I strongly > disagree with the author's opinions regarding my Extropian friends, I > do not hate the author and this dialog would not benefit anyone, > including myself, especially if I am trying to establish a rational > point. > > 2.) I just can't say enough bad things about their whole stupid, late > 1980s-Los Angeles robot cult philosophy, which I'm convinced was > inspired by a combination of Christianity, transactional analysis, > and (perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein. > > 2.) I am not a roboticist nor a Christian, and Heinlein did not > influence me to be interested in anything or support anyone. > > 3.) Picture this: It's 1985, and a bunch of people, too young to have > been hippies, too old to understand yet that Massachusetts Institute > of Technology's Media Lab is doomed to be irrelevant, are still > recovering from having grown up during the 1960s "rocket age." > > 3.) I was not raised in the 1960's and in 1985 I was still in school. > In fact, I believe I was born the same year as the author of this > article. So this sociological analysis is a generalization, and an > unfounded one at that. I have met many Extropians of many ages, with > many diverse personalities, interests and belief systems, who do not > fit into the above described box. > > 4.) Now they're living in California > > 4.) We live all over America as well as over seas. I am currently not > living in California. However, I do understand the association that > is being drawn, technology and Silicon Valley are being married > together here, however a location does not dictate a state of mind. > > 5.) doing boring jobs or going to stupid private universities, > > 5.) First let me say that I am surprised that private universities > are described as "stupid". I personally have not been to enough > private universities to study the curriculum or how well the system > functions, nor have I studied the statistics to determine or form an > opinion on the current bar of education at these facilities as > compared to other universities, but perhaps the author has done so, > and has simply left the evidence out of the article. > > I also do not know where the information of Extropians have "boring > jobs" or attending "private universities" was received from. The word > "boring" is highly subjective, so what is boring for one is not > boring for another, thus the statement itself is speculative. I know > many Extropians who do very exciting, intellectual and productive > work. I also am married to a Harvard PhD graduate, my best friend > attended M.I.T. and many of my Extropian friends have attended a > myriad of schools, and some have not attended any. Their jobs, are > also just as diverse, from artists to astronomers. > > 6.) and the flying cars they were promised on The Jetsons are > nowhere to be seen. Plus, nobody has cured cancer, > > 6.) This is a very, very, crucial point that I am glad the author has > pointed out. In 1993 nanotechnology was introduced to me. When I > realized the potential benefits that future applications of this > emerging technology could have on society, I began my research (see > www.nanoindustries.com). In particular one of the most intriguing is > the impact it will have on biotechnology. The theorized treatments > and monitors could change the face of medicine. It has been over a > decade now and I have now been happily married to a man for four > years (married 2000), the love of my life, who helped organize one of > the first nanotechnology conferences, wrote many articles and edited > books on the topic, and is a loving, caring person (see #12). It was > our common interest in nanotechnology that in fact, brought us > together. In May, he was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, a form of > cancer, and is currently undergoing chemotherapy. Would I prefer that > my husband could have the advantages of nanotechnology or other > advances as an alternative to the tiring and immune suppressive > chemotherapy that he is now undergoing, absolutely. Would I like the > same to be available for others, absolutely. We both would like to > see the continuation and aide of medical and other advances continue > in a safe and educated manner. Today when you are ill, you go to the > hospital to receive treatment, it's not considered selfish (see #11) > we access technology to help alleviate our pain and cure what ails > us. We use technology to communicate via website, like I have, like > the author of this article has. Just because technology is often > scary when it is not here yet, we can not ignore it's usefulness, > even in today's world. This doesn't mean that we can not contemplate > the benefits and the risks either, that is exactly the sort of debate > that goes on within the Extropian community. How do we guide, how do > we prevent, etc. > > It was many years after my interest in nanotechnology that I > discovered the Extropians (I believe it was 1998?). I found a place > where I could address the big questions in life in an intelligent > forum with insightful people. There was not only discussion of my > particular interest, but also philosophical issues, art, science, > language, psychology, music, space, the universe, genetics, current > events, history, biology, ethics, the environment, the mind, the list > could go on and on. The topics are not one sided, opinions vary and > these are expressed in healthy debate. This type of dialog is an > example of how communication is often education. > > 7.) the light-filled aliens haven't arrived to impart wisdom, > > 7.) Do I really have to express that I have never expected such an > arrival? > > 8.) and there still isn't an anti-aging drug they can take to > preserve their wrinkle-free, > > preternatural tans. > > 8.) I have no idea what she means by this? I don't even tan, in fact, > I glow in the dark. > > 9.) So they get into self-improvement, but with a high-tech twist. > They call their movement "extropy" - you know, like the opposite of > "entropy," the process of slowing down and descending into chaos. > Extropy is supposedly a way of always progressing, growing, and > transforming oneself, particularly by using science. And the > extropians decide that science is going to save them from everything, > especially growing old and dying. It will be just like heaven, only > with a lot more tantric sex and smart drugs. > > 9.) I have never heard the term "heaven" used to describe the future > that we hope for. What I have heard is a need for resolution of the > problems that we currently face. Every day we watch the news and are > all somberly aware that there are things that we need to work on. We > live in a world of suffering, hunger, disease, pollution, why would > we not try to investigate and support solutions for these problems? > > 10.) Some of them start theorizing that in the future they'll be able > to upload their brains into computers. Others request that their > bodies or heads be cryogenically frozen after they die so they can be > revived, Futurama-style, in a far-distant future in which everything > is perfect and glorious and subject only to the laws of extropy. > > 10.) Cryonics suspension does not mean that those who are revived > will be revived in a "far-distant, Futurama-style" future, but rather > when the technology to revive them becomes available, when ever that > is. That could be five years from now or a hundred years from now. > The goal is not to wake up in a "perfect" futuristic world, but > merely to wake up! > > Something else to note: not everyone who is an Extropian is signed up > for cryonics and not everyone signed up for cryonics is an Extropian. > > 11.) You think I'm kidding, don't you? But I'm not. The extropian > thing only got more popular all through the 1990s, riding the wave of > dot-com psychosis into a mire of self-help delusions. Calling > themselves "transhumanists" or "posthumanists," the extropians > continue to preach longevity and techno-rapture and, occasionally, > hedonism. Most of all, they proselytize for rampant individualism: > it's all about achieving your dreams, making real life into science > fiction so you can be whatever you want. > > 11.) This goes back to the answer above (#9), the descriptions used > here "self-help delusions", "occasionally, hedonism" (#6), and > "rampant individualism" are not at all applicable descriptions when > you look at the fact that our group is interested in benefiting > society as a whole. Of course if you imagine a world that is better > for all, you can also imagine a world that is better for the > individual. There are many benefits in the world today that can be > seen as benefiting the whole and the individual, much of the advances > accomplished today do so. > > Supporting technology does not mean that we believe anybody can do > "whatever you want", we are not envisioning anarchy. Our moral fibre > is intact. > > Our vision of the future is to utilize advancements to achieve a > healthy environment, healthy bodies, healthy minds, and general well > being. This is the same vision that we have for the majority used > today in bringing all of our advances into our daily lives, at the > doctors, at work, in our pockets and into our kitchens and living > rooms. > > And to quote "it's all about achieving your dreams", when did that > become a faux pas? Isn't that what our grandmothers and mothers told > us since we were small children? So isn't the alternative to say, > don't follow your dreams, be unhappy, that doesn't make any sense to > me. > > 12.) It's precisely the kind of pseudo-religion that would appeal to > people whose lifelong devotion to high-tech capitalism leaves them > with no value system other than personal accumulation. > > 12.) Extropy is not a religious structure. My personal experience > with fellow members has not displayed the lack of "value system" that > the author describes. It's shocking that we are some how > mis-interpreted as non-human and non-hearted folk, just because we > want to see technology continue to help solve the worlds problems. > Extropians are just as caring, family oriented and generous as any of > the most kind people anybody else knows in their own lives. There > have been times in my life where I turned to my Extropian friends and > they all came to my aide in my time of need (#11), and I am referring > emotional need (#14). We all have families and friends, we all have > compassion and there are those of us who are not well enough off to > invest in the "high-tech" companies or even to "accumulate" things. > If materialism was a requirement, I and others certainly wouldn't be > there. > > 13.) After all, extropian heaven is automatically within reach if you > can afford all the life-extending gadgets and pills that will > supposedly hit the marketplace any day now. I suppose that's why > various stripes of extropianism have flowered among professional > geeks who want to believe there's something more to existence than > coding all day. Of course, that something is just more of the very > same life they're already leading - which means they'll outlive their > retirement on all that Google stock money. > > 13.) Again, I am speaking personally here, I have no Google > investment (money again?), and I do not take pills, except for > "Flintstones Complete". But I do strongly disagree with the idea that > taking protein powders or life extension pills is wrong. Why? Are > vitamins wrong? Is medication wrong? Is healthy eating wrong? Is > exercise wrong? It's the same thing. It's a personal choice to care > for your body so you can live a long and healthy life for yourself > and those around you. > > 14.) Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like > evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely > has the potential to catch on, big time. First of all, it's already > fairly popular among members of the nerd elite, who have money and > control the blogosphere (I have a sudden urge to invent extropian > blog conspiracy theories!). > > 14.) Why is there this instance that we all have money, I imagine > some of us do, but if I do, please kindly send me the safe deposit > key so that I may access it. During this time with my husbands > illness and our insurance companies lack of ability to pay for the > treatments, we sure could use it. > > People who speculate on theories, discuss and support the > possibilities of technology or the future, do not need money to do > so. > > 15.) Maybe some of them can create an ExtroPAC that funds politicians > who agree to support foolish longevity research. Plus, the extropians > are a perfect fit for the U.S. political system because they appear > to offer an alternative way of thinking while actually reinforcing > the status quo. > > 15.) Extropy is not associated with any political party. > > 16.) Extropians, for all their future worship, > > 16.) We do not "worship" the future, as the future is yet untold, we > are only discussing and preparing for it to be a better future than > days gone by. > > 17.) are part of the same cultural bent toward superstition that has > led George W. Bush and other right-wingers to proclaim that stem > cells are full of little souls, abortion is murder, global warming > isn't a threat, and peer-to-peer networks are used primarily to > disseminate child pornography. The only difference between a Bush > conservative and a transhumanist is that conservatives project their > fears onto technologies they don't understand, while transhumanists > project their hopes. Either way, you've got a magical interpretation > of science being advanced as a creepy political agenda. > > 17.) This analogy is somewhat confusing. While I agree with the > insinuation the author has regarding George W. Bush (and I am > speaking for myself, not the Extropians), I am not clear on how we > are just like him except for "projecting hope"? This is a very odd > metaphor since the author almost seems to be agreeing with my > ideologies so the parallel is almost the proof! > > 18.) And let there be no doubt about it: the extropian agenda is > creepy. Who wants to live forever in a world where only the richest > people in developed countries will become immortal? It's not as if > there's going to be a special cryogenics fund for everybody in Kenya > and Chile. > > 18.) Extropy is not just cryonic suspension (the term cryogenics is a > related procedural general term). Yes Extropians see the advantages > of future technological applications, much in the same we are > currently living with the benefits of modern medicine. However, not > every single Extropian is signed up for cryonic suspension. Since the > Extropian movement does not include only members who believe in "such > and such technology" it is more generally open since emerging > technologies tend to relate to each other. > > Another point is, that it is not expensive to sign up for cryonics, > if you opt to pay by simply paying a standard insurance payment > rather than a flat fee. > > Nanotechnology for example would give those who live in poverty > access to manufacture their own supplies for practically no cost due > to it's use of raw materials. > > 19.) In order for people to live forever in the transhumanist future, > some people will still have to live like trash. Sounds sort of like > entropy to me. > > 19.) I'm not sure what the author means by "live like trash". If I > were to assume that she meant those who are not financially secure, > then I would also assume those who are not, might find the "trash" > reference objectionable. With that said, there are very wide > distances between the rich and the poor in the world we in live in > today (#18). Many of the technologies we as Extropians discuss, aim > to shorten that distance. > > > > 20.) Annalee Newitz (lycanthropy at techsploitation.com) is a surly > media nerd and spazhumanist who would rather die than be an > extropian. Her column also appears in Metro, Silicon Valley's weekly > newspaper. > > 20.) I tried to look the word "spazhumanist" up, but apparently it's > not a real word. > > > Gina "Nanogirl" Miller > Nanotechnology Industries > http://www.nanoindustries.com > Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html > Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org > Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org > Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html > Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com > "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Sep 10 14:22:22 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 07:22:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Body Hopping Message-ID: <00dc01c49741$96b61400$6600a8c0@brainiac> So many children are inculcated with - "If I should die before I wake, I pray the lord my soul to take" - and for various other reasons, human beings just don't seem ready for prime time when it comes to *not* separating the two - body and soul: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/10/opinion/10bloom.html?th Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 10 15:21:44 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:21:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <00dc01c49741$96b61400$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/bush.guard.ap/index.html From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Sep 10 15:41:51 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:41:51 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash Message-ID: <132870-220049510154151938@M2W053.mail2web.com> Hi Gina, I sent you a private response with just a couple of comments. I think that the most important thing is to not take this personally. (Spoken from someone who has been through this more than once.) Second, if you provide accurate, meaningful facts, just a few will set her straight and show her that yellow-dog journalism is a cope-out for her profession. Here is one fact: Extropy Institute's Board consistes of 6 members, 4 of whom as not American citizens (Canada, Venezuela, Sweden and England make up the board) Greg Burch lives in Houston and my home has been Telluride, Colorado (well, New York originally). Second, most membership of ExI is outside Califonria and in fact, is global. Drop a few names. For example: 1.)I HATE THE extropians. Then you must hate Eric Drexler, father of nanotechnology; Marvin Minsky, father of artificial intelligence; Ray Kurzweil, noted innovator and award winning inventor; Christine Peterson, founder of Foresight Institute; Pamela Lifton-Zoline, founder of the Telluride Institute; and Roy Walford, world-reknown scientist and author, just to name a few. If you keep your rebuttal short and factual, then she will read it. If you respond emotionally she will toss it in the trash. By the way, I wonder where she did get her erroneous information? Another reason why transhumanists have a responsibility to author their FAQs accurately and not publically badmouth each other. I hope we all can work toward this and stop others who are doing it in their tracks. My best to all, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 15:49:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 08:49:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040910154936.36042.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> To be objective, radical left wingers are reporting that the IBM Selectrec II typewriter (the 'golfball' typewriter, named due to its round head) was capable of producing 10 point super and subscript as well as its 12 point standard text, as well as proportional spacing. However, if 60 minutes has the originals, they should show indentation/compression marks in the paper, especially seen on the backside, which would not be produced by a printer. Similarly, the inks used on 1972 typewriter tape would have different chemical composition to 1990's inkjet or laser printers. The ink would also have a pixeled pattern on a printed letter vs. a fully inked letter on the typewriter version. Anyone with a simple jewellers or publishers loupe could determine whether the originals are fakes or forgeries. --- Spike wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/bush.guard.ap/index.html > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Fri Sep 10 16:17:53 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:17:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith could use some help (fwd from hkhenson@rogers.com) Message-ID: <20040910161753.GM1457@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Keith Henson ----- From: Keith Henson Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 09:29:33 -0400 To: sl4 at sl4.org Subject: Keith could use some help X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Reply-To: sl4 at sl4.org Actually Keith is *desperate* for help. I got turned down on my refugee claim an incredible 10 months after the last hearing. But after that my appeal to the Canadian federal courts was almost instantly rejected. So at this point I am a "failed refugee." The only thing that can keep me from being deported to the US on short notice is an appeal to the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration. Her office gets 15,000 letters a week so it takes a well known case to reach the level where it gets attention. Now you say, being deported to the US isn't so bad. Well in my case it is. Here is testimony obtained about a week ago. It is from May 13, 2004. A Toronto cop is being quizzed by my lawyer about events when I came here three and a half years ago (Robert K Schwarz is the deputy DA who prosecuted the case against me with the help of a former Mafia lawyer.) Q. I don't think you need to go into that. I think we're all aware of that. Did Mr. Schwarz did you ask him if he was going to take any steps to extradite Mr. Henson? A. Yes, I did. Q. And he responded that he wasn't? A. He said the State of California would not extradite Mr. Henson from Canada, however, if Mr. Henson was found to be in another State, such as New York, then they would probably proceed with extradition requests from New York. Q. I see. But he made it clear to you that they have no intention to try to extradite him from Canada? A. It came down to a matter of cost, dollars and cents. Q. He wasn't candid enough to admit that they couldn't extradite him from Canada? A. No. He just said that the State of California would not extradite Mr. Henson from Canada Q. I see. A. because of the cost. Of course scientology would be footing the bill. Someone who has been sentenced does not have to be extradited, they can just be kidnapped by bounty hunters. And cult agents have made fairly clear public threats that I would not survive jail. Considering the depth the cult has corrupted the government of Riverside County, I can hardly look for justice there or even being safe in their jail. I am about to release information that makes the case that scientology created a jury where most of the members were under their control. Ok, if you want to help what to do? If you live in Canada, write your MP with a cc to my MP and if you will, a blind cc to me or if you want, post it. You can ask them asking your MP to pass a copy on to the Minister, Judy Sgro. You can get your MP from your postal code by going here: http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=canadaonline&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parl.gc.ca%2Finformation%2Fabout%2Fpeople%2Fhouse%2FPostalCode.asp%3Flang%3DE%26amp%3Bsource%3Dsm My MP is Lloyd St Amand, Constituency Address 98 Paris Road, Unit 3 Brantford, Ontario N3R 1H9 E-Mail: stamal at parl.gc.ca He says that email and postal mail are given the same attention. If you are outside of Canada, supporting email to stamal at parl.gc.ca asking him to help me stay in Canada would be the way to go. If you know me personally or by reputation, put that in your email or letter. Half a page to a page is more likely to get read, but the length is up to you. Thumbnail background here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson and in too much detail here: http://www.operatingthetan.com/civil-rights-letter-redacted.htm Much appreciate your efforts. Keith Henson PS and if anyone wants to read the whole transcript, ask and I will try to get it up on a web site. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Fri Sep 10 17:30:17 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 10:30:17 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash References: <132870-220049510154151938@M2W053.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <003401c4975b$d731cdc0$1db71218@Nano> Okay, be patient with me. Jim and I have to go to the emergency room, sigh. So I will not be able to get back to this until later today. Gina` Hi Gina, I sent you a private response with just a couple of comments. I think that the most important thing is to not take this personally. (Spoken from someone who has been through this more than once.) Second, if you provide accurate, meaningful facts, just a few will set her straight and show her that yellow-dog journalism is a cope-out for her profession. Here is one fact: Extropy Institute's Board consistes of 6 members, 4 of whom as not American citizens (Canada, Venezuela, Sweden and England make up the board) Greg Burch lives in Houston and my home has been Telluride, Colorado (well, New York originally). Second, most membership of ExI is outside Califonria and in fact, is global. Drop a few names. For example: 1.)I HATE THE extropians. Then you must hate Eric Drexler, father of nanotechnology; Marvin Minsky, father of artificial intelligence; Ray Kurzweil, noted innovator and award winning inventor; Christine Peterson, founder of Foresight Institute; Pamela Lifton-Zoline, founder of the Telluride Institute; and Roy Walford, world-reknown scientist and author, just to name a few. If you keep your rebuttal short and factual, then she will read it. If you respond emotionally she will toss it in the trash. By the way, I wonder where she did get her erroneous information? Another reason why transhumanists have a responsibility to author their FAQs accurately and not publically badmouth each other. I hope we all can work toward this and stop others who are doing it in their tracks. My best to all, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Fri Sep 10 18:15:52 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 14:15:52 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000001c49749$e5171b00$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <4141EF58.2050901@pobox.com> Spike wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/10/bush.guard.ap/index.html One of the most interesting aspects of this story, which is not, of course, reported in the CNN article, was that numerous Internet sources and blogs spotted this problem almost immediately, even while dozens of newspapers continued to report the story as unquestioned fact. But you can't expect the Old Media to report on how the New Media is faster, smarter, less credulous, and more concerned with accuracy than the Old Media. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From naddy at mips.inka.de Fri Sep 10 19:30:16 2004 From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:30:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> Message-ID: natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > While at my work, I came across this information at Stanford. If anyone > says to you, "Cryonics will never work", "Human lifespan will never exceed > 123 years", or some unextropic rationale, you can always reply with one of > these statements below. This silly listing keeps getting posted here every year. How about adding some other failed predictions for balance? Where are the nuclear tugs that supply Arabia with antarctic icebergs for freshwater? Where's my flying car? Where can I book that vacation with a hike up Olympus Mons or at least a visit to Tycho? Mocking people with hindsight is easy. Unless you understand the reasons behind why these forecasts were made and why they proved to be incorrect, you are just babbling stupidly. > "Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." > --Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949 Literally taken, this turned out to be mostly true... > "This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a > means of communication. The device is inherently of no value to us." > --Western Union internal memo, 1876. Yes, and they had good reasons for this. A while back, c't magazine had an excellent multipart essay by Gundolf Freyermuth where he examined the cultural history of communications. The telephone is a huge anomaly. Over the course of history, communications has increasingly moved into the written domain, a trend that has lately picked up again (email, SMS, IM). > "Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible." > --President, Royal Society, 1895. Superficially this is so stupid that I would dearly love to learn the rationale behind it. Birds fly, bird are heavier than air, so heavier-than-air flight clearly is possible. (Some phrasings of this quote even leave the qualification "machines" out.) The argument must be about scaling, power density, etc. Should be very interesting for those of us with an amateur interest in physics. Or maybe the original statement really was that stupid. I mean there are still people out there today who claim with a straight face that the human mind must have some mystical part, soul, whatever, that a machine can never possess. > "If I had thought about it, I wouldn't have done the experiment. The > literature was full of examples that said you can't do this." > --Spencer Silver on the work that led to the unique adhesives for 3-M > "Post-It" Notepads. Yup. And generally, when the literature says it can't be done, this amazingly turns out to be true. Rare counterexamples notwithstanding. > "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and reaction > and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which to react. > He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high schools." > --1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's revolutionary rocket > work. Well, that showcases that the editorial writer didn't understand the conservation of momentum. And he didn't have today's excuse of seeing it all the time violated in movie/TV fiction. Of course a lack of understanding (or willful neglect of) the conservation of momentum is pretty much required to become a science fiction writer. You see, this very thing that makes rockets work also makes it darn hard to fly around with rockets in the solar system. > "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." > --Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre. Rather true at the time the statement was made. Initial use of planes was limited to battlefield reconnaissance. The statement obviously fails to account for the amazing progress aviation would make in the subsequent three decades, but then it isn't phrased as a prediction. Military history buffs correct me, but I don't think any major military failed to catch on to the importance of planes in the time between WWI and WWII. > "Everything that can be invented has been invented." > --Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. Known to be an urban legend. (As I suspect are some more in the list.) > "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". > --Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872 > > "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from the > intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." > --British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen Victoria 1873. Oh yes, the history of medicine is very interesting. Much of modern medicine that we are so used to only dates from the late 19th and early 20th century. The quackery that was previously dominant is truly appalling. > "640K ought to be enough for anybody." > -- Bill Gates, 1981 I'm still confounded by this. As those of us who understand a bit how those PC-thingies work and who are old enough to remember those times know, the 640kB limit is an artifact of IBM's original PC architecture, something outside of Gates's control. And of course the IBM PC was only a quick hack and never designed as the starting point of a computing architecture for decades to come--undoubtedly IBM could have done a much better job if they had understood what role the PC would play. Which leads us back into failed prediction territory. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at mips.inka.de From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 22:12:51 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20040910221251.67434.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gina Miller wrote: > What's really blowing my mind is after I wrote the > response I found this article by her that advocates > nanotech!? > http://www.alternet.org/story/16629 > > Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of > advanced technology, and is then against those who > support it? I don't think she is against any of our pet technologies. She is definitely not a Luddite. I think she actually has a lot in common with us but does not wish to call herself one of us. She probably had a bad personal experience with one of us and that has colored her opinion of the whole group. I can imagine this happening. I had independently reached many of the same philosophical conclusions regarding technology and longevity that you guys had before I ever ran across the term "Extropy". When I found ExI on the web and made my first few posts to the list, you people weren't the most friendly discussion group to join but you eventually warmed up to me. I have a thicker skin than most. If I didn't, I might be writing blog-rants against you folks too. My assessment is that this woman is a great gadfly. Her core beliefs are essentially ours so she won't actually be able to say anything that logically refutes our position and all her rhetoric is great free publicity for our movement. For the record: 1. I have an exciting job at a public university (the same one I got my degree at). 2. We don't have flying cars because the authorities don't trust us with them not because the technology isn't there. I have seen at least two prototypes of flying cars demonstrated on tv tech shows over the years. We get into enough accidents and stuff with the normal ground-based automobiles so flying cars would just be unsafe for the masses to drive. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 10 22:20:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 15:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040910222029.14746.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > "Professor Goddard does not know the relation between action and > reaction > > and the need to have something better than a vacuum against which > to react. > > He seems to lack the basic knowledge ladled out daily in high > schools." > > --1921 New York Times editorial about Robert Goddard's > revolutionary rocket > > work. > > Well, that showcases that the editorial writer didn't understand > the conservation of momentum. And he didn't have today's excuse > of seeing it all the time violated in movie/TV fiction. Of course > a lack of understanding (or willful neglect of) the conservation > of momentum is pretty much required to become a science fiction > writer. You see, this very thing that makes rockets work also makes > it darn hard to fly around with rockets in the solar system. Ignorance was even more widespread than just one editor. Goddard had to run an experiment of shooting a pistol in a vacuum chamber to prove that the recoil still existed... > > > "Airplanes are interesting toys but of no military value." > > --Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre. > > Rather true at the time the statement was made. Initial use of > planes was limited to battlefield reconnaissance. The statement > obviously fails to account for the amazing progress aviation would > make in the subsequent three decades, but then it isn't phrased as > a prediction. Military history buffs correct me, but I don't think > any major military failed to catch on to the importance of planes > in the time between WWI and WWII. You stand corrected. Airplanes were of immense use during wwi to destroy zeppelins (used to bomb with heavy loads as well as observe) and observation balloons. Observation itself is a rather important military value, being the key to intelligence gathering. They also fought against each other to prevent enemy fighters from shooting down one's own zeppelins and balloons. Secondly, Col. Billy Mitchell, who served with Rickenbacher and Hap Arnold during WWI, advocated air power in the immediate postwar period, and demonstrated its potential by bombing and sinking several Battleships and cruisers captured from Germany that were slated for destruction. However, all this is immaterial to the quote above, since it was made prior to 1914. > > > "Everything that can be invented has been invented." > > --Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899. > > Known to be an urban legend. (As I suspect are some more in the > list.) I thought this was said by the head of the Smithsonian. Don't depend on Snopes for your authority. If they can't find it on the web, they generally call something an urban legend until someone proves otherwise. > > > "Louis Pasteur's theory of germs is ridiculous fiction". > > --Professor of Physiology at Toulouse, 1872 > > > > "The abdomen, the chest, and the brain will forever be shut from > the > > intrusion of the wise and humane surgeon." > > --British surgeon, appointed Surgeon-Extraordinary to Queen > Victoria 1873. > > Oh yes, the history of medicine is very interesting. Much of modern > medicine that we are so used to only dates from the late 19th and > early 20th century. The quackery that was previously dominant is > truly appalling. Actually, this quote was made at a time when human experimentation was considered immoral, and only unethical quacks messed around with dead bodies, a la the Frankenstein story got its premise... > > > "640K ought to be enough for anybody." > > -- Bill Gates, 1981 > > I'm still confounded by this. As those of us who understand a bit > how those PC-thingies work and who are old enough to remember those > times know, the 640kB limit is an artifact of IBM's original PC > architecture, something outside of Gates's control. > > And of course the IBM PC was only a quick hack and never designed > as the starting point of a computing architecture for decades to > come--undoubtedly IBM could have done a much better job if they had > understood what role the PC would play. Which leads us back into > failed prediction territory. The PC architecture was developed to be a modularly assembled personal computer from mostly off the shelf components that were used in other applications. The 640k limit was an artifact of this off the shelfness, to which designers found they could program quite a bit (though most applications we take for granted today were not even dreamed of or at least on the drawing boards) with it, much as programmers today are learning the art of programming for the Palm OS, a limited resource architecture. Of course, Bill grew up in an incredibly competitive family, where the siblings and neighbors kids all engaged in extremely competitive games and contests all the time. The "ought to be enough for anybody" I think is actually a statement of bravado amongst programmers, much like someone saying they can name that tune in three notes.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 01:04:28 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <033501c4970a$ae5b4260$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <20040911010428.90653.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> --- Gina Miller wrote: > Huh? I don't understand why she's supportive of > advanced technology, and is then against those who > support it? I would guess that she got a wrong impression of the extropes, and then got carried away. I kind of enjoyed her little rant, didn't take it too seriously, looked on it as an artistic piece, more about style than substance. After all, who starts a serious piece with "I HATE THE..."? Feels to me like she's emulating--to some degree--the style of Cintra Wilson, another Bay Area woman writer with a tasty over-the-top style. So I would go with Natasha's recommendation, Gina, that you not take it personal. Also, by way of trying to understand why someone so technophilic, educated, and talented would get her knickers in a twist over the extropians, I direct your attention to the second sentence in the piece, which starts with "I just can't say enough bad things about..." and ends with what at first might seem an oddly specific focus of criticism: "...(perhaps worst of all) the science fiction of Robert Heinlein." Why does she single out Heinlein? Where in the extropian experience does she chance upon something Heinleinian, and how does this encounter so unsettle her that she is moved to link Heinlein and Extropianism and then confer upon this mysterious coupling the gold medal of ire: "perhaps worst of all"? Occam's razor explains all. She came to the extropian's list. She read some of Mike Lorrey's stuff--thus the Heinlein connection--TAANSTAAFL et al--and her head exploded. That would be my guess. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 01:38:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040911010428.90653.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040911013815.35866.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Davis wrote: > > She came to the extropian's list. She read some of > Mike Lorrey's stuff--thus the Heinlein > connection--TAANSTAAFL et al--and her head exploded. > > That would be my guess. Ah, well, it's secret love, then. That's gotta be it. She's trying to get my attention. She knows I enjoy sarcasm, irony, and ad hominem humor.... Can anybody introduce us? ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Sep 11 02:45:42 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 19:45:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040910221251.67434.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c497a9$6eb85d60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > The Avantguardian > 2. We don't have flying cars because the authorities > don't trust us with them not because the technology > isn't there... We have flying cars, had em since the 50s. They don't go on the street, but the Jetson's "cars" didn't either. Ours make a lotta noise and wind, they take up a lot of parking lot space. They are also really expensive to operate. The flying car people would have us believe that they can build a helicopter with unreasonably short rotors, but the efficiency goes way down when you build them that way, so the power requirements go way up, making them even more noisy and more expensive. spike From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Sep 11 03:00:42 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 20:00:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040910221251.67434.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <010d01c497ab$86b9ecb0$1db71218@Nano> I have sent the letter off with a few adjustments based on the feedback I received. Thank you Natasha, for taking the time to give me those facts and as usual your wonderful support. Thank you Damien who has typo radar! Thank you Avantguardian, I added your point about flying car demonstrations. Thank you to the rest of the Extropy gang who posted to this topic, this is another instance of supporting each other and discussion, that only goes to prove the points I made in my response. And don't worry, I'm not taking the authors comments personally, it's just that I meant everything I said! I figure if she can share her opinion, so can I. Sometimes I just can't help myself! So, we'll just wait and see if anything comes of it. Thank you again, g` Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at att.net Sat Sep 11 05:04:44 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:04:44 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> My favorite bad prediction was made by an expert in 1901, "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly", this man said. Normally I heap scorn on such foolish statements but I won't in this case because this prediction was made by a fellow by the name of Wilbur Wright after a series of extremely disappointing glider experiments. His bogus prediction can be forgiven because he was the very one who made it untrue; two years later Wilber Wright was flying. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From jonkc at att.net Sat Sep 11 05:54:20 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 01:54:20 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> He who talks about the liberation of atomic energy on an industrial basis is talking moonshine?. Lord Rutherford September 1933 There is no likelihood man can ever tap the power of the atom. The glib supposition of utilizing atomic energy when our coal has run out is a completely unscientific Utopian dream, a childish bug-a-boo. Nature has introduced a few fool-proof devices into the great majority of elements that constitute the bulk of the world, and they have no energy to give up in the process of disintegration. - Robert A. Millikan [1928 speech to the Chemists' Club (New York)] There is not the slightest indication that [nuclear energy] will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will. - Albert Einstein, 1932. That is the biggest fool thing we have ever done. The bomb will never go off, and I speak as an expert in explosives. - Admiral William Leahy. [Advice to President Truman, when asked his opinion of the atomic bomb project.] The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it... Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient. - Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839), French surgeon There is a young madman proposing to light the streets of London?with what do you suppose?with smoke! - Sir Walter Scott (1771-1832) [On a proposal to light cities with gaslight.] When the Paris Exhibition closes electric light will close with it and no more be heard of. - Erasmus Wilson (1878) Professor at Oxford University Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value. - Editorial in the Boston Post (1865) Radio has no future. - Lord Kelvin British mathematician and physicist, . 1897. What can be more palpably absurd than the prospect held out of locomotives traveling twice as fast as stagecoaches? - The Quarterly Review, England (March 1825) Rail travel at high speed is not possible because passengers, unable to breathe, would die of asphyxia. - Dr. Dionysus Lardner (1793-1859), Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy at University College, London. That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced. - Scientific American, Jan. 2, 1909. If the world should blow itself up, the last audible voice would be that of an expert saying it can't be done. - Peter Ustinov John K Clark jonkc at att.net From eugen at leitl.org Sat Sep 11 05:57:45 2004 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 07:57:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Manifesto for Open Chemistry (fwd from george@LIBRARY.CALTECH.EDU) Message-ID: <20040911055745.GY1457@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from george at LIBRARY.CALTECH.EDU ----- From: george at LIBRARY.CALTECH.EDU Date: Fri, 10 Sep 2004 16:01:37 -0700 To: CHMINF-L at LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Subject: A Manifesto for Open Chemistry Reply-To: CHEMICAL INFORMATION SOURCES DISCUSSION LIST forwarded from Open Access News Peter Murray-Rust, Henry S. Rzepa, Simon. M. Tyrrella, and Y. Zhanga, Representation and use of Chemistry in the Global Electronic Age , a preprint forthcoming from Organic & Biomolecular Chemistry. On the exciting potential of combining open access and the semantic web in chemistry. Excerpt: "Almost all of an author's output (compounds, spectra, reactions, properties, etc.) is nowadays computerised and in principle redistributable to the community for re-use. Few journals actively validate the primary data (e.g. spectra) involved in a publication (chemical crystallography being a clear expectation where data are intensively reviewed by machine). We reassert that chemists must now move towards publishing their collective knowledge in a systematic and easily accessible form for re-use and innovation....We urge that authors, funders, editors, publishers and readers move further towards the following protocol: [1] All information should be ultimately machine-understandable in XML....[2] Machine-understandable information for a compound should include a connection table, the IUPAC unique identifier (INChI) which guarantees that the connection table can be checked and regenerated, and a name....[3] Rights metadata. An explicit statement in the data that its re-use is consistent with the Budapest Open Access initiative and a requirement that this statement be preserved when the data is re-used....The main challenge is for chemists to recognise the value of making their data machine-understandable, rather than destroying it with traditional paper or slide-focused publication and dissemination processes." http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2004_09_05_fosblogarchive.html#a10948 3796605304806 George S. Porter Sherman Fairchild Library of Engineering & Applied Science California Institute of Technology Mail Code 1-43, Pasadena, CA 91125-4300 Telephone (626) 395-3409 Fax (626) 431-2681 http://library.caltech.edu contributor http://stlq.info | http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/fosblog.html CHMINF-L Archives (also to join or leave CHMINF-L, etc.) http://listserv.indiana.edu/archives/chminf-l.html Search the CHMINF-L archives at: http://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa?S1=chminf-l Sponsors of CHMINF-L: http://www.indiana.edu/~cheminfo/chminf-l_support.html ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 07:37:15 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 17:07:15 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <20040911013815.35866.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040911010428.90653.qmail@web60002.mail.yahoo.com> <20040911013815.35866.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040911003715774c60@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 18:38:15 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Jeff Davis wrote: > > > > She came to the extropian's list. She read some of > > Mike Lorrey's stuff--thus the Heinlein > > connection--TAANSTAAFL et al--and her head exploded. > > > > That would be my guess. > > Ah, well, it's secret love, then. That's gotta be it. She's trying to > get my attention. She knows I enjoy sarcasm, irony, and ad hominem > humor.... > > Can anybody introduce us? ;) > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism Mike and a "sex and the city" pseudo feminist? Lol! If I could introduce you Mike, I would! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 10:34:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:34:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <010d01c497ab$86b9ecb0$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: I have just seen the Extropian Trash article. As many pointed out it is so full of factually wrong statements that it should be considered as meaningless noise. The only signal hidden in the noise is: "...Although not yet as powerful as other annoying cults like evangelical Christianity and Scientology, transhumanism definitely has the potential to catch on, big time.... Now the same conclusion is also implied by Fukutyama in his recent Foreign Policy piece on transhumanism as the most dangerous idea of our times. In other words: our opponents are SCARED, and this can only mean that they realize that transhumanist thinking is here to stay and grow, perhaps more than we ourselves hope: our enemies actually believe in the fast spread of transhumanist memes more than transhumanists themselves. So I take these two articles as a sign of hope and an encouragement for all transhumanists. We must continue writing calm and rational pieces in support of our ideas, and try spreading them as wide as possible. At the same time lets bear in mind that as we acquire more visibility and trust the fight is bound to get even dirtier (as politicians know). I don't think it is wise to spend too much energy in defense against pieces like Extropian Trash. Better focosing on positive messages to everyone who wants to read them. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 23/04/2004 From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 11:07:13 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 21:07:13 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: Message-ID: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >... our opponents are SCARED, and this > can only mean that they realize that transhumanist thinking is > here to stay and grow, perhaps more than we ourselves hope: > our enemies actually believe in the fast spread of transhumanist > memes more than transhumanists themselves. Perhaps folk like Kass, Fukutyama and an assortment of professional opinionists are actually in a symbiotic relationship with transhumanists. Sort of like the media is in a symbiotic relationship with politicians. How'd it be if transhumanists were actually providing the oxygen to Kass's flame? Brett Paatsch From neptune at superlink.net Sat Sep 11 12:18:47 2004 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 08:18:47 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Piecing Together Human Aging: Science Online Special Collection Message-ID: <001601c497f9$7e04a120$29893cd1@pavilion> http://www.sciencemag.org/sciext/aging2004/ From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 11 12:35:18 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:35:18 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog]Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <000701c497fb$cce93ec0$ffb51b97@administxl09yj> > How'd it be if transhumanists were actually providing > the oxygen to Kass's flame? > Brett Paatsch Pareto argued that elites are inevitable in all societies. Pareto in particular argued that there were two types of elites: 'lions', who rule by force and coercion, and 'foxes', who rule by cunning stealth and persuasion. The 'masses', according to Pareto, are made of 'followers', because they are inarticulate. In short Pareto perceives the masses as unfit for government. Pareto pointed out that there is a 'circulation of elites', whereby one type of elite ('lions' or 'foxes') is replaced by the other type. Are transhumanists lions, foxes, or something else? Are Fukuyamists lions, foxes, or something else? Are Al-Qaedians lions, foxes, or something else? Was Vilfredo Pareto completely wrong? From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Sat Sep 11 12:57:50 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:57:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <2FCDAB59-03F2-11D9-84D0-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Really what do individual predictions show? Its hard to predict the future. Some people make optimistic predictions and some make pessimistic predictions. Many optimistic predictions don't work out either. A lot of people are still waiting for Christ to return. The question is whether Extropians will be waiting for their own personal saviour for another 2000 years. ciao, patrick From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 14:02:16 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:02:16 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <018401c497bc$dabc8410$40fe4d0c@hal2001> <01bc01c497c3$da8df5d0$40fe4d0c@hal2001> <2FCDAB59-03F2-11D9-84D0-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <016401c49807$f1f784e0$ec202dcb@homepc> Patrick wrote: > Really what do individual predictions show? Its hard to predict the > future. Some people make optimistic predictions and some make > pessimistic predictions. Many optimistic predictions don't work out > either. A lot of people are still waiting for Christ to return. The > question is whether Extropians will be waiting for their own personal > saviour for another 2000 years. Yep. People laughed at Christopher Collumbus but they also laughed at Bozo the clown. Predictions are really beside the point. Projections and plans on the other may be weighted and critiqued and sometimes falsified. Brett From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 14:39:28 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:39:28 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat][Pigdog]Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> <000701c497fb$cce93ec0$ffb51b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <017e01c4980d$2483f100$ec202dcb@homepc> scerir wrote: > Pareto argued that elites are inevitable in all societies. > Pareto in particular argued that there were two types of elites: > 'lions', who rule by force and coercion, and 'foxes', who > rule by cunning stealth and persuasion. > Are transhumanists lions, foxes, or something else? > Are Fukuyamists lions, foxes, or something else? > Are Al-Qaedians lions, foxes, or something else? > Was Vilfredo Pareto completely wrong? Something else. Lions and foxes are only used here as types. That we can consider and use them as types gives us the answer. Many if not most individual modern homo sapiens can leverage tool making intelligence to muster more force than lions and more cunning and stealth than foxes in the same specimen. That is in no small part because the animal predators of modern humans are also often more forceful than lions and more cunning than foxes - they are other modern humans. The principle predator and competitor to modern humans has been modern humans for so long that those that are alive likely carry genes as well as memes for fierceness and cunning - including Al-Qaedia. Brett From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Sep 11 16:44:05 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 09:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <00de01c497ef$7dd70d00$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040911164405.78548.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > >... our opponents are SCARED, and this > > can only mean that they realize that transhumanist > thinking is > > here to stay and grow, perhaps more than we > ourselves hope: > > our enemies actually believe in the fast spread of > transhumanist > > memes more than transhumanists themselves. > > Perhaps folk like Kass, Fukutyama and an assortment > of > professional opinionists are actually in a symbiotic > relationship with > transhumanists. Sort of like the media is in a > symbiotic relationship > with politicians. I'd say the opioninists are more like parasites than symbiots. Politicians provide fodder to the media, who in turn provide exposure to the politicians. What unquestionably good/useful thing do opinionists provide to us? We already get exposure just by ourselves. Contrast this to how things would be if we weren't there: they would have to find something else to write irate articles about. From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 11 17:44:19 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 19:44:19 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] unevolved Italians (et al.) References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <001201c49826$f7c83990$71b21b97@administxl09yj> [Strange 'from west to east' effects] US schools ban Darwin from class http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,656228,00.html http://www.bigeye.com/creation.htm http://www.aip.org/pt/vol-53/iss-10/p73a.html http://whyfiles.org/095evolution/ [DB] > Tens of thousands of Italians have expressed their disagreement with a plan > by the minister of education, universities, and research, Letizia Moratti, > to ban the teaching of evolutionary theory to young teenagers. Serbian government has reversed an order to ban Charles Darwin's theory of evolution from schools ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3642460.stm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953639/ http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5932128/ http://www.channelone.com/news/2004/09/10/ap_creationism/ From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 11 18:09:13 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 20:09:13 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] splitting photons References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040905134129.01a618c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <001201c49826$f7c83990$71b21b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <005f01c4982a$721d0790$71b21b97@administxl09yj> J.J. Thorn et al., Am. J. Phys., v.72, p.1210 (2004). [Abstract] While the classical, wavelike behavior of light (interference and diffraction) has been easily observed in undergraduate laboratories for many years, explicit observation of the quantum [or 'particle'] nature of light (i.e.,photons) is much more difficult. For example, while well-known phenomena such as the photoelectric effect, and Compton scattering, strongly suggest the existence of photons, they are not *definitive* proof of their existence. [Leonard Mandel wrote the same, so: no doubt about it!] Here we present an experiment, suitable for an undergraduate laboratory, that unequivocally demonstrates the quantum nature of light. Spontaneously downconverted light is incident on a *beamsplitter* and the outputs are monitored with single-photon counting detectors [2 detectors, plural]. We observe a near absence of *coincidence* counts between the two detectors - a result inconsistent with a classical wave model of light, but consistent with a quantum [particle] description in which individual photons are incident on the beamsplitter. More explicitly, we measured the degree of second-order coherence between the outputs to be g(2)(0) = 0.0177?0.0026 which violates the classical inequality g(2)(0)>=1 by 377 standard deviations. [End of Abstract] So, photons really do not split (but their wavefunctions ...). "The hypothesis of light-quanta is not able to throw light on the nature of radiation." - N. Bohr, 1922 Nobel Lecture. (Lewis called "photons" these light quanta, in 1926). A paper by John F. Clauser, in "Quantum [Un]speakables", ("unspeakable", you know, according to J.Bell, were the unothodox quantum models, like hidden variables, etc., that orthodox physicists did not like at all, and journals refused to publish), R.A.Bertlmann and A.Zeilinger eds., Springer, 2002, is titled "Early History of Bell's Theorem", pages 61-98, and is very interesting. Chapter 6.14 is devoted to "Splitting Photons?". Essentially Clauser is discussing, in there, but very shortly, Schroedinger's interpretation of Compton & Simon exp. (different from von Neumann's idea), and also the simplistic Adam, Janossy, Varga experiments (suggested by Schroedinger, references below), and also his own experiment (reference below) which was a great improvement of the A.J.V. experiments. According to Clauser his experiment (similar to that above) already showed that "both quantum mechanics and quantum electrodynamics hold true, and photons do not split at a half-silvered mirror." and also that the Cauchy-Schwarz inequality was, for the first time, violated (in his experiment), which represents the "first observation of sub-Poissonian statistics for light." According to Clauser, his exp. resolves another problem that Schroedinger himself stated: does the photoelectric effect reveal a statistical (Bohr) or a precise (von Neumann) conservation of energy? QED is formally based on an assumed strict equality of h*nu (QM) and integral (over space) of EM field energy. Clauser's exp. shows that the above equality holds and, thus, necessarily, there is a precise conservation of energy. References therein: - E.Schroedinger, Physikalishe Zeits. 23 301 (1922); Die Naturwissenschaften 12 720 (1924); Nuovo Cimento 9 162-170 (1958). - A.Adam, L.Janossy, P.Varga, Acta Phys. Hung. 4 301 (1955); Ann. Phys. 16 408 (1956). - J.F.Clauser, Phys. Rev. D-9 853 (1974). - P.Grangier, G.Roger, A.Aspect, Europhys. Lett. 20 1061 (1986). From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 11 19:18:27 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:18:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] a short-sighted look at the future Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040911141731.01ad5798@pop-server.satx.rr.com> ...by the alleged supreme fictional extrapolators: http://www.locusmag.com/2004/Features/09_ShirleySocialFuture.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 19:40:50 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <016401c49807$f1f784e0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040911194050.18290.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > Patrick wrote: > > > Really what do individual predictions show? Its hard to predict the > > > future. Some people make optimistic predictions and some make > > pessimistic predictions. Many optimistic predictions don't work out > > > either. A lot of people are still waiting for Christ to return. The > > > question is whether Extropians will be waiting for their own > personal > > saviour for another 2000 years. > > Yep. People laughed at Christopher Collumbus but they also laughed > at Bozo the clown. > > Predictions are really beside the point. Projections and plans on the > other may be weighted and critiqued and sometimes falsified. I hereby predict that the inaccuracy of predictions will continue to expand at exponential rates.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Sep 11 20:20:07 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 22:20:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts! In-Reply-To: <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> Are you talking of the current/proposed techniques or of the concept itself? I would find it difficult to believe that no possible technique can restore a deceased patient to life. You are right, I think, that there are no sacred cows. Rather, if it works it works, if it does not work we have to go back to the drawing board. G. On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote:> But it is possible that cryonics will never work. This is essentially > my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking > a close look at the arguments made in its favour). It is also possible that > human lifespans will not exceed 123 years (though I think that is > unlikely and turns on the definition of human). > > Is a belief in the viability of cryonics an essential article of faith to > extropians? Can one be an extropian, in your view, if that one does > not believe in cryonics? > > I thought you would have said yes once, that it turns on the evidence > and on how one examines propositions and beliefs. That extropians > have no sacred cow beliefs including cryonics. > > Am I wrong? > > Brett Paatsch From megao at sasktel.net Sat Sep 11 20:13:14 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern world VS JW's Message-ID: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has to evolve. Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. MFJ -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian at doitnow.com) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 12:34:39 +0200 Size: 4566 URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 11 21:24:24 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 14:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: Extropian Trash (fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040911003715774c60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040911212424.47214.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > > Mike and a "sex and the city" pseudo feminist? Lol! If I could > introduce you Mike, I would! Thanks. I don't mind real feminists, or even pseudofeminists, so long as they have a sense of humor about it. It's the matri-talitarians I have difficulty with. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 11 23:56:13 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:56:13 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog]Fwd:ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) References: <20040911164405.78548.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01fa01c4985a$ebac9050$ec202dcb@homepc> Adrian Tymes write: > --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > > Perhaps folk like Kass, Fukutyama and an assortment > > of > > professional opinionists are actually in a symbiotic > > relationship with > > transhumanists. Sort of like the media is in a > > symbiotic relationship > > with politicians. > > I'd say the opioninists are more like parasites than > symbiots. Politicians provide fodder to the media, > who in turn provide exposure to the politicians. What > unquestionably good/useful thing do opinionists > provide to us? We already get exposure just by > ourselves. I think the amount of publicity is greater because of the opinionists and the sort of criticism that is levelled when it is just ranty can cause people who feel targetted to bind together and when there is substance in it it can cause reflection and refinement of ideas. The question what is an extropian is not really clear cut. Is it someone who agrees with the Extropian Principles (some of these can be in tension with each other), is it someone who says they are, or is it someone who likes the company of people who post to the list? Are there in effect some core beliefs as distinct from values even if these are not formally prescribed? What are the core values, are they changeing? If it is easy to parody extropians as cultists - why would that be? Have things that used to seem neither clearly provable or falsifiable become clearer with the advancement of science such that it is no longer open mindedness but ignorance to continue to suspend disbelief - These questions and others are I think are questions worth considering from time to time. A lot of folk that post to this list have stated on list that they are not extropians (including Natasha ! ) yet those who read a list are likely to be assumed to be extropians by association. One can like extropians without agreeing with much of what some of them write on a chat list. I like extropians. Yet I would not call myself an extropian. Whether I would correct someone who clearly assumed that I was would depend in part on how uncomfortable I felt about being associated with what their view of an extropian was. > Contrast this to how things would be if > we weren't there: they would have to find something > else to write irate articles about. Yep. Brett From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 12 01:47:32 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:47:32 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > On Fri, 10 Sep 2004 11:59:56 +1000, Brett Paatsch > ... But it is possible that cryonics > will never work. This is essentially > > my current position (and I did not arrive at that position without taking > > a close look at the arguments made in its favour). > Are you talking of the current/proposed techniques or of the concept > itself? I would find it difficult to believe that no possible > technique can restore a deceased patient to life. You are right, I > think, that there are no sacred cows. Rather, if it works it works, if > it does not work we have to go back to the drawing board. I think I've read what I understand to be about the best most current proposed techniques and discussions on cryonics. I've read Merkle's paper on the Molecular Repair of the Brain (I'm not a fan of that one), Max More's thesis (or part of it), the Alcor documentation from the mid 1990s, the Suda papers and I still subscribe to the cryonet list. I read that stuff because on first impression I found the possibility of cryonics appealing and not obviously implausible. I thought that if on serious consideration a sceptic like me could come to think that cryonics would work for me, then I could probably sell it to other people. I thought I might have the skills to become the Australian franchise holder of whatever was the best of the US cryo companies at some point in the futue. I thought I would know how to build cryonics as a business. I am confident enough of my ability to judge what will and won't work that if I was really convinced that if cryonics was a viable solution for me, then I could persuade others that it would also be a solution for them. To answer your question I now think that cryonics will never work for me, not just with proposed current techniques but with any possible future techniques that might be conceivable recognizable as cryonics and carried out within the laws of physics. This does not mean that I believe in souls or spirits I don't. I am a materialist. I just think that I am a material thing that is biological and has grown. I am made up of atoms sure but far more relevantly to what makes me me I am made up of cells. I don't think that any cryonics procedure can disassemble me to the cellular level and put me back together again. I think I would be destroyed in the wholesale disassembly process and that the wholesale disassembly process cannot be gotten around because at the time the cryonics "freezing" processs is initiated I would have been composed of inorganic highly perishable cells. And cells aren't structured in efficiently evolved biological organisms so as to leave service lanes for nanobots (on the contrary the brain is protected by a blood brain barrier precisely to reduce the opportunity for entry disease). Evolution didn't design my brain to rebuilt it, it gave it some capacity for repair and adaption but ultimately evolution will be perfectly happy to start again and grow another. The me bit encoded in my brain is entirely expendable from evolutions standpoint. I don't accept the information theoretic criteria of death. I think the information theoretic criteria of death is a hurdle that is chosen specifically because IT savvy folk feel confident that it could be jumped over. I don't think the information theoretic criteria of death has any other applications other than to satisfy an understandable yearning (I'd like to avoid dying too) to avoid dying. If the information theoretic critera was valid rather than just a rationalisation it would hold some value not just at the end of life but at the start of it. DNA is information but it is not life. A recipe is not a cake. I think the unit of life is the cell. In short I think cryonicists believe in cryonics for similar reasons that christians believe in the resurrection - they want to live and they can't clearly see that it is impossible (that don't see that any irrevocable scientific laws are broken or that they cannot be gotten around) so they continue to hope for what might work without knowing exactly how. I can relate to the wanting to hope but I can't pull of belief in cryonics with intellectual integrity any better than I can pull of belief in reincarnation or the resurrection. Yet being human and mortal cryonics was a subject that I felt compelled to explore. I could not just keep an open mind on it and not explore it, that would have been to have shortchanged myself a great opportunity for both survival and perhaps a very successful business had it been possible. Now that I have reached a conclusion on cryonics I feel in much the same way towards transhumanists that still think it will work and still suspend disbelief to hold hope as I once felt towards friends and family that remained religious when I grew out of it. I like them. I respect them when they argue sensibly and I don't put much stock in their beliefs but am interested in their values. Its the cryonics thing that makes transhumanist and extropes look a bit cultish and so easy to parody in my opinion. And I have seen embryonics stem cell scientists differentiate their work in front of public audiences by pointing at the Raelians as the irresponsible unbelievable face of cloning but I've also seen them talk of cryonics in the same way. Cryonics as a meme is out there - the meme has been given a fair shake by some pretty persistent and impassioned advocates over quite a period of time. And I'm glad that it has been. But scientists and the public know about it. Scientists as a class are not indifferent to means of prolonging or extending their own surivival. Those that are not signing up are not all not signing up because they are ignorant some of them, like me, are not going for it because they are confident that it cannot work. And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but from an understanding of biology. When I see those who support cryonics lobbying for it, I don't oppose them, the libertarian in me thinks that people should be able to do whatever they like so long as it harms no one else, and championing an idea like cryonics may actually bring a sector of the public to a sort of interest in science and technology that otherwise might not be motivated to learn something about it. And I would have not accepted other people advice had they told me not to explore the possibility of something like cryonics if it seemed useful for me to do so. But if something isn't true there eventually will be harmful ramifications if a lot of people believing it, because a lot of believers can constitute a entropic political force. Perhaps through much of human history it has been the religious visionaries driven by personal need that have blazed the fuzzy trails that scientists came along to later to apply harsher standards but more slowly too. If cryonics is a central article of faith to most transhumanists and I don't think it necessarily is to all of them (but there don't seem to be many that have ruled it out) then I guess I'd regard transhumanism as a sort of latter day religion. Perhaps a successor or variant on christianity where the preserve-hope-for-the-future function of the resurrection myth is replaced by a less obviously unscientific one. Brett Paatsch From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 12 03:51:55 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 13:51:55 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Forecasts! References: <20040911194050.18290.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024701c4987b$d8aef300$ec202dcb@homepc> Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Yep. People laughed at Christopher Collumbus but they also laughed > > at Bozo the clown. > > > > Predictions are really beside the point. Projections and plans on the > > other may be weighted and critiqued and sometimes falsified. > > I hereby predict that the inaccuracy of predictions will continue to > expand at exponential rates.... Due to scale changes in the predictions or to increased 'density' of the underlying 'media' ? Move over Moore's Law.... Lorrey's Law is truckin' through :-) Brett From rafal at smigrodzki.org Sun Sep 12 04:58:42 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 00:58:42 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> Brett Paatsch wrote: >This does not mean that I believe in souls or spirits I don't. I am a >materialist. >I just think that I am a material thing that is biological and has grown. I >am >made up of atoms sure but far more relevantly to what makes me me I am >made up of cells. I don't think that any cryonics procedure can disassemble >me to the cellular level and put me back together again. I think I would be >destroyed in the wholesale disassembly process and that the wholesale >disassembly process cannot be gotten around because at the time the >cryonics "freezing" processs is initiated I would have been composed of >inorganic highly perishable cells. And cells aren't structured in >efficiently >evolved biological organisms so as to leave service lanes for nanobots >(on the contrary the brain is protected by a blood brain barrier precisely >to reduce the opportunity for entry disease). Evolution didn't design my >brain to rebuilt it, it gave it some capacity for repair and adaption but >ultimately >evolution will be perfectly happy to start again and grow another. The me >bit encoded in my brain is entirely expendable from evolutions standpoint. > >I don't accept the information theoretic criteria of death. I think the >information >theoretic criteria of death is a hurdle that is chosen specifically because >IT >savvy folk feel confident that it could be jumped over. I don't think the >information >theoretic criteria of death has any other applications other than to satisfy >an >understandable yearning (I'd like to avoid dying too) to avoid dying. > > > ### Ah, the old identity thread again! Let's pound this nail even deeper! Do you think that your concept of personal identity (about cells, blood brain barriers, etc.) is the only correct one (leaving all others to be mere rationalizations, if not insane mutterings), or maybe there are many possible concepts, which may be chosen, or believed in without automatically consigning the believer to the ranks of the hopelessly misguided morons? In the latter case, identity would be a matter of taste, discussed and politely disagreed on, but not an obstacle to mutually respectful relationships. In the former case, having a certain type of identity belief could put a person in the same category as the Raelians and Rastafarians, which does limit the range of interactions possible. -------------------------------- > I can relate to the wanting to hope but >I can't pull of belief in cryonics with intellectual integrity any better >than I can >pull of belief in reincarnation or the resurrection. > ### Well, there is a difference between the information-theoretic (IT) concept of identity, and the belief in resurrection by supernatural means. We IT's do not postulate the occurrence of any extraphysical events which rely for confirmation on stories written by bearded half-literate peasants two thousand years ago. The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain physically feasible states of the world (future world states which contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, or by means of information transfer. The only difference between you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a belief about material facts. A question of value, not fact. ------------------------------------------- >Now that I have reached a conclusion on cryonics I feel in much the same way >towards transhumanists that still think it will work and still suspend >disbelief to >hold hope as I once felt towards friends and family that remained religious >when >I grew out of it. I like them. I respect them when they argue sensibly and I >don't >put much stock in their beliefs but am interested in their values. Its the >cryonics >thing that makes transhumanist and extropes look a bit cultish and so easy >to >parody in my opinion. > > ### Remember, religious people make scientifically unsupported statements about facts, which leads them to bizarre beliefs about values. This is much different from cryonicists, who rely strictly on science for facts, and fit their values accordingly. -------------------------------- >And I have seen embryonics stem cell scientists differentiate their work in >front >of public audiences by pointing at the Raelians as the irresponsible >unbelievable >face of cloning but I've also seen them talk of cryonics in the same way. > >Cryonics as a meme is out there - the meme has been given a fair shake by >some >pretty persistent and impassioned advocates over quite a period of time. And >I'm >glad that it has been. But scientists and the public know about it. >Scientists as a >class are not indifferent to means of prolonging or extending their own >surivival. >Those that are not signing up are not all not signing up because they are >ignorant >some of them, like me, are not going for it because they are confident that >it >cannot work. And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but >from an understanding of biology. > > ### As a practicing scientist (molecular neuroscientist) I can assure you that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics comes purely from ignorance. If you disagree, point out a single scientific, biological argument for why cryonics cannot work, and you could score a convert to your attitude. Rafal From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 05:48:59 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:48:59 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern world VS JW's In-Reply-To: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> References: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has > to evolve. > Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world > view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. > > I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the > ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry > for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved > faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend > persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary > fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons > with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who > seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. > > This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. > > MFJ From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 12 08:42:07 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 18:42:07 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > >This does not mean that I believe in souls or spirits I don't. > >I am a materialist. I just think that I am a material thing that > > is biological and has grown. I am made up of atoms sure > > but far more relevantly to what makes me me I am made > > up of cells. I don't think that any cryonics procedure can > > disassemble me to the cellular level and put me back > > together again. I think I would be destroyed in the wholesale > > disassembly process and that the wholesale disassembly > > process cannot be gotten around because at the time the > > cryonics "freezing" process is initiated I would have been > > composed of organic highly perishable cells. And cells > > aren't structured in efficiently evolved biological organisms > > so as to leave service lanes for nanobots (on the contrary > > the brain is protected by a blood brain barrier precisely > > to reduce the opportunity for entry disease). Evolution > > didn't design my brain to rebuilt it, it gave it some capacity > > for repair and adaption but ultimately evolution will be > > perfectly happy to start again and grow another. The me > > bit encoded in my brain is entirely expendable from > > evolutions standpoint. > > > >I don't accept the information theoretic criteria of death. > > I think the information theoretic criteria of death is a hurdle > > that is chosen specifically because IT savvy folk feel > > confident that it could be jumped over. I don't think the > > information theoretic criteria of death has any other > > applications other than to satisfy an understandable > > yearning (I'd like to avoid dying too) to avoid dying. > > > > > > > ### Ah, the old identity thread again! Let's pound this nail > even deeper! Hi Rafal. OK :-) > Do you think that your concept of personal identity (about > cells, blood brain barriers, etc.) is the only correct one > (leaving all others to be mere rationalizations, if not insane > mutterings), or maybe there are many possible concepts, > which may be chosen, or believed in without automatically > consigning the believer to the ranks of the hopelessly > misguided morons? I am not going to call you or anyone a hopelessly misguided moron just for disagreeing with me even if you ultimately do. I do think all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain. I think that it is a mistake to think that someone who is now a homo sapiens can be abstracted out of their cellular substate and yet somehow continue to exist as disembodied pattern and then to be re-instantiated again. I think that the self is lost in the process. I don't want or need to call people who I think are mistaken misguided morons. > In the latter case, identity would be a > matter of taste, discussed and politely disagreed on, but > not an obstacle to mutually respectful relationships. In the > former case, having a certain type of identity belief could > put a person in the same category as the Raelians and > Rastafarians, which does limit the range of interactions > possible. I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I don't present to myself as a pattern. > -------------------------------- > > > I can relate to the wanting to hope but I can't pull off belief in > > cryonics with intellectual integrity any better than I can pull > > off belief in reincarnation or the resurrection. > > > ### Well, there is a difference between the information-theoretic > (IT) concept of identity, and the belief in resurrection by > supernatural means. It doesn't seem that big a difference to me. In both cases the person thinks that they can survive somehow despite a comprehensive disassembly of the cellular substrate. I am my cellular substrate, I think you are yours. If you think you are not then I think you are mistaken. > We IT's do not postulate the occurrence of any extraphysical > events which rely for confirmation on stories written by bearded > half-literate peasants two thousand years ago. But you ITs do postulate that you can exist as disembodied information don't you? > The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain > physically feasible states of the world (future world states which > contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental > setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), > and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures > appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, > or by means of information transfer. The only difference between > you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain > only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a > belief about material facts. I think the difference between us is that you think that you can in some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to determine that pattern. > A question of value, not fact. That I exist as a biological being is a fact. That you do probably is also a fact. > ------------------------------------------- > > >Now that I have reached a conclusion on cryonics I feel in > > much the same way towards transhumanists that still think it > > will work and still suspend disbelief to hold hope as I once > > felt towards friends and family that remained religious when > >I grew out of it. I like them. I respect them when they argue > > sensibly and I don't put much stock in their beliefs but am > > interested in their values. Its the cryonics thing that makes > > transhumanist and extropes look a bit cultish and so easy > > to parody in my opinion. > > > > > ### Remember, religious people make scientifically > unsupported statements about facts, which leads them to > bizarre beliefs about values. This is much different from > cryonicists, who rely strictly on science for facts, and fit > their values accordingly. > -------------------------------- > > > >And I have seen embryonics stem cell scientists differentiate > > their work in front of public audiences by pointing at the > > Raelians as the irresponsible unbelievable face of cloning > >but I've also seen them talk of cryonics in the same way. > > > >Cryonics as a meme is out there - the meme has been given > > a fair shake by some pretty persistent and impassioned > > advocates over quite a period of time. And I'm glad that it > > has been. But scientists and the public know about it. > >Scientists as a class are not indifferent to means of > > prolonging or extending their own surivival. > >Those that are not signing up are not all not signing up > >because they are ignorant some of them, like me, are not > > going for it because they are confident that it cannot work. > > And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but > > from an understanding of biology. > > > > > ### As a practicing scientist (molecular neuroscientist) I can > assure you that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics > comes purely from ignorance. Thats not a very scientific thing to say. How could you possible know that all academic detractors views come purely form ignorance? How could you even be sure that you know who all the academic detractors are? > If you disagree, point out a single scientific, biological argument > for why cryonics cannot work, and you could score a convert to > your attitude. Raf there is no evidence anywhere ever that a homo sapiens can survive separate from the cellular substrate that makes up their brain. I'd like to discuss this in good faith with you because I think the subject matter warrants it. Its important. But I don't know that I can show you that cryonics won't work for *you* unless I know what the word cryonics means for *you*. It could be that you have a different understanding of it to others that I have read. It could even be that you have no precise notion of how it would work in practice at the level of capturing synaptic structural information. If you do have a precise notion of how it could work step by step then, if your notion is internally inconsistent I could possibly point that out to you. If its not internally inconsistent and its step by step - perhaps you'd have persuaded me. With religious notions definitions are slippery. The reason that things cannot be disproved is often because the believers can't or won't define what they believe in in the first place. Believing is powerful evolutionary mojo. The Christian church has been around for around 2000 years - a lot of empires don't last that long. It intend no insult when I say that I suspect that the propensity to believe make be at work amongst intelligent people causing them to think that cryonics might work and allowing them to overlook that they have no specific step by step process in mind that can be shown not to work. If you can't say what cryonics is for you, and outline a path at least as good as Ralph Merkle in his paper then it might be that I can't find an internal contradiction for you because your idea is not developed enough to be demonstrably wrong. I mean no insult by that. It just *may* be like trying to show someone that god can't exist because their concept is internally inconsistent and then finding out that their concept is not even static but keeps getting redefined even as you try to discuss it. It can end up that they are using a word and declaring a belief in something for which they have no particular cogent referent at all. I'd written a different response to this post but accidentally deleted it before posting. Sorry if the rewrite is sloppy. Cheers, Brett From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Sep 12 09:14:11 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 11:14:11 +0200 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: Now this is an interesting thread! Thanks Brett and Rafal for bringing this up (again). The key question is, are you still you after [cryonics, uploading, merge with the Cosmic Self, ... whatever you like]. In a sense you are not the same person after getting a haircut: some matter is missing, you look different in the mirror so after a while your self-image is affected, etc. But of course you are the same person after getting a haircut. We can build a hierarchy of examples ranging from simple examples like this where the answer is clearly yes, to more complex examples. Are you still the same person after radical psychotherapy? Is the old (wo)man the same person as the teenager of 50 years ago? Are you still you after a radical change of worldview? Are you still you after waking up from sleep?... In a sense the answer is always no, in another sense it is always yes. To me this means that the border between self and not self has to be fuzzier than we think, and that in some sense we can choose on which side we want to be. So I choose to *be* still me after sleep, even if I may have had one of those dreams with a very deep psychloogical impact. I am not afraid to go to sleep because I know from experience that after waking up I will accept today's self as a continuation of yesterday's self. I think people will say the same after biologically successful revival from cryonic suspension, or after cybernetically successful uploading. G. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.667 / Virus Database: 429 - Release Date: 23/04/2004 From michael at mbhubbard.com Sun Sep 12 13:51:30 2004 From: michael at mbhubbard.com (Michael B. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:51:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworld VS JW's In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <412453E700F6C07E@mta4.wss.scd.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 12:49 AM Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. [MBH] I think with the JWs its largely a matter technique. They would nt be opposed to living on earth with vastly increased lifespans, in fact, you can read certain passages in the bib as proof of the possibility. Their method of achieving those lifespans, though, would be decidedly low-tech, i.e., diet modification (within "biblical strictures"), use of herbal supplements, etc. Uploading or cybernetic/genetic enhancement would probably be viewed as debasing the body, though, and would be prohibited (at least in one sect. Availability said technologies would likely create yet another schism in the JW organization.) From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 13:45:46 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:45:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern worldVS JW's References: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4144530A.24EF45D8@sasktel.net> The way I hear it, they are very big on "god's kingdom on earth" with peace and accept the concept of lifespans like in "the days of the biblical garden of eden". They might view advanced technology as god's way of ruling the earth?? Religeon has always been ameable to re-interpretation in the strangest of ways. They might well accept a technological singularity as "divine:..... Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to > transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that > in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. > > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures > Inc. wrote: > > In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has > > to evolve. > > Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world > > view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. > > > > I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the > > ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry > > for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved > > faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend > > persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary > > fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons > > with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who > > seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. > > > > This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. > > > > MFJ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 13:57:07 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:57:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] Message-ID: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> Then, sophisticated engineered-plant-based biopharmaceuticals would be perfectly acceptable to them. What about human cell culture based medicines such as Scibiono's stem cell grown modified , anti cancer virus? Maybe the 140,000 "survivors brought up to heaven" could be interpreted by such groups as 140,000 novel transhuman species reaching out to populate the heavens. Seeding the concept of transhumanism in existing religeons might be a dangerous thought but given the concept of "group loyalty" most religeons hold, once established , it could certainly spread like wildfire? -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Michael B. Hubbard" Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworld VS JW's Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:51:30 -0500 Size: 3912 URL: From joe at barrera.org Sun Sep 12 16:39:31 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 09:39:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> References: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <41447BC3.2080204@barrera.org> Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > virus? Maybe the 140,000 "survivors brought up to heaven" could be > interpreted by such groups as 140,000 novel transhuman species Actually it's 144,000 :-) From benboc at lineone.net Sun Sep 12 21:07:04 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:07:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: A view on cryonics In-Reply-To: <200409121800.i8CI0C030161@tick.javien.com> References: <200409121800.i8CI0C030161@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4144BA78.5030801@lineone.net> Brett Paatsch wrote: "some of them, like me, are not going for it because they are confident that it cannot work. And their confidence I think comes not from conservatism but from an understanding of biology." Lord Kelvin's belief (i think it was him) that the sun could only burn for 6000 years or so was based on his good understanding (for the time) of physics. He wasn't to know that the sun isn't actually made out of coal. The one thing that has struck me most forcibly about biology is how very little we know. I went to college over 20 years ago to do a biochemistry degree, and got some inkling of how ignorant we were then. I now feel, if anything, even more ignorant 20-odd years later; not because of what i have forgotten, but because of what i have learned since. I still say now what i used to say then, but with even more conviction: The more i learn, the more i realise just how little i've learned. Your pessimism regarding the feasibility of cryonics is understandable, but i don't think it is justified. We simply don't know enough to make that kind of decision at this point in time. Personally, i think cryonic suspension remains "the second worst thing that could happen". Please don't take this as a personal attack on your knowledge, or an insult, it's not, and it also applies to me and to everyone else, but your understanding of biology is miniscule. I think it was Einstein who said something about scratching about at the beach looking at the sand, when the great ocean of truth was just yards away. He was talking about physics, but it applies even more to biology. We're still just scratching the surface. OK, after reading more of that thread, maybe i'm getting the wrong end of the stick about your objection: "...you think that you can in some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to determine that pattern. " This is an interesting line of thought. What is a disembodied pattern? Can there be such a thing? It sounds a bit like the traditional christian concept of a soul. Clearly that concept is nonsense. Even if it could exist, 'the soul' couldn't possibly represent 'you' in any meaningful way. Why would evolution have come up with the most complex machine in the known universe, if it wasn't necessary to embody a mind? I don't see how a pattern can be disembodied. It must be embodied in something. The important thing, for a mind, is whether it is embodied in a static medium, as a 'recording', or in an active one, in which it can continue to process information, and, effectively, 'live'. The destruction of the cells you mention is happening all the time, anyway. Human bodies are like those clouds that hang around mountain tops. It looks like the same cloud from one minute to the next, but in fact it is composed of different water molecules all the time, as they flow into the low-pressure region, condense, then evaporate again as the wind carries them out of the cloud. The cloud IS the pattern. But it is not a disembodied pattern. It couldn't exist without the wind and the water molecules. We are the same, except vastly more complex. If you think that only a biological substrate can handle the complexity of the pattern of a human mind, that's another argument. Feel free to start it :-). "there is no evidence anywhere ever that a homo sapiens can survive separate from the cellular substrate that makes up their brain." Of course not. Not yet, there isn't. There was no evidence anywhere ever that homo sapiens could survive in the vacuum of space, or at the bottom of the sea, or that we could fly above the clouds, not until we did those things. The absence of proof that you can do something is not proof that you cannot do it. I would agree that a mind cannot exist without something to embody it, but not that that something has to be a biological brain (or even a cellular structure, but who says we couldn't make artificial cells, anyway?). Human bodies and brains *are machines* (do you deny this?). It's no more startling to expect that the mind could be implemented on a different machine than it is to expect that a digital watch can do the same job as a water clock (Of course, there's no denying that a digital watch requires a completely different level of technology to a water clock). ben From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Sep 12 21:24:35 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:24:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A view on cryonics Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040912162330.01bcd788@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:47 AM 9/12/2004 +1000, Brett wrote: >To answer your question I now think that cryonics will never work for >me, not just with proposed current techniques but with any possible future >techniques that might be conceivable recognizable as cryonics and carried >out within the laws of physics. I'm shocked! How can anyone doubt that cryonics can work, when we have here the photographic evidence to prove it! http://www.panterraweb.com/frozen%20gals.htm Damien Broderick From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 20:36:05 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 15:36:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for apost-modernworldVS JW's] References: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> <41447BC3.2080204@barrera.org> Message-ID: <4144B334.DFF111D4@sasktel.net> I knew that, just checking who else did... When I was about 20, a JW was trying to line me up with one of their daughters so I have been to a few of their gatherings... MFJ "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > > > virus? Maybe the 140,000 "survivors brought up to heaven" could be > > interpreted by such groups as 140,000 novel transhuman species > > Actually it's 144,000 :-) > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From megao at sasktel.net Sun Sep 12 21:11:02 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:11:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Canuck's Incitement to kill Bush brings redcoats, brownshirts and white coats? Message-ID: <4144BB66.C1B75153@sasktel.net> Just having some fun with the internet security sniffer software......: Extropians might be regarded as people who think dangerous thoughts but none of us would ever want to kill Bush. Instead, we'd like to freeze him so that future societies can study his neural pathways and decrypt his thoughts. He'd just look so cute like a little Ken Doll in that dewar flask. We could clone him and create 20-30 copies just to see "A-La-Boys from Brazil" if they could, despite their less privaleged starts in life rise to become leaders in their own community or country. Then we'd all know if the Bush lineage is "nature or nurture". Whoa, better stop now or I might join the ranks of the fellow described below....: ************************************************** The Windsor Star Man charged with threatening Bush Star News Services Saturday, September 11, 2004 HALIFAX -- A man in Halifax has been charged with making death threats against U.S. President George W. Bush over the Internet. Timothy George Andrew, 28, has been remanded for a psychiatric assessment and is due back in court next week, the ATV news network reported Friday. Threats allegedly found on an Internet message board included: "Death to the president of the U.S.A. and destruction to that nation's Babylon" as well as "The president of the U.S.A. is king of terror" and "The president of the U.S.A. is going to be killed and will never stand again." RCMP said its investigation with the U.S. Secret Service started last October and ended late last month, resulting in charges of making threats and threatening Bush. ? The Windsor Star 2004 From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 12 23:12:07 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] [Pigdog] Fwd: ExtropianTrash(fwdfromthespian@doitnow.com) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040912231207.15264.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > the same conclusion is also implied by Fukuyama > ...transhumanism as the most dangerous idea of our > times. > In other words: our opponents are SCARED I see it slightly differently. It's not that **they** are scared, but that they are fear-mongers, making their living scaring others, the mass-infotainment consumers, the little people. They do this by fishing around for a qualified bogeyman. Blacks, commies, homos, furriners, drug users,...whatever works. Fear: the mother's milk of political control. The pace of technological change and the incomprehensibility of matters scientific provoke feelings of helplessness and vulnerability in the little people, then follows fear and anger. The Fukuyama's of the world seek out and develop this resource, and then hire themselves out to the politicos who exploit it. Anyway, that's how I see it. YMMV. Best, Jeff Davis "The new always carries with it the sense of violation and sacrilege. What is dead is sacred. What is new, that is different, is evil, dangerous, or subversive." Henry Miller _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Shop for Back-to-School deals on Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com/backtoschool From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 03:31:23 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:31:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modern world VS JW's In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> References: <41435C5A.89593974@sasktel.net> <470a3c5204091122481d9a5bce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091220311586963c@mail.gmail.com> For JW's (and other "Christian" sects as well) blood is a special case. There are biblical scriptures which support the proposition that "life is in the blood." Of course, from a purely biological viewpoint, life is in any organ necessary to keep an organism alive. It could just as rightly be said that life is in the brain, or life is in the heart, etc. But given the special significance given to blood in scripture (draining the blood from sacrificial animals, prohibitions against eating the blood of food animals, the theological significance ascribed to the shedding of "Christ's" blood on the cross, etc.), it is not surprising that JW's view the exchange of blood between persons to have extraordinarily vital significance. On the other hand, I have seen no scriptural basis for any JW objection to such "extropic" tech as brain implants or other artificial mental and/or physical enhancements so long, of course, as their is no contamination of the blood in the process. On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 07:48:59 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Are you saying that Jehovah's Whitnesses may be more open to > transhumanist ideas than other groups? Odd, I would never thought that > in view for example of their being against blood transfusions etc. > > On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 15:13:14 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures > > > Inc. wrote: > > In order for people to find meaning and purpose to life, philosophy has > > to evolve. > > Technology has changed but the human mind remains mired in a past world > > view which has not really re-thought itself for 4,000 years. > > > > I had one of the Jehovah's Whitnesses who to my amazement was one the > > ladies working at Old Fashion Foods in Weyburn who ordered my barberry > > for me stop by today. You know what, the concept of a self improved > > faster, better smarter human able to live 200-1500 years does not offend > > persons whose world view is otherwise regarded by many as reactionary > > fundamentalist. This is sharp contrast to middle of the road persons > > with middle of the road religeous philosphy like Fukayama and Bush who > > seem to want no part of even letting people step in that direction. > > > > This is not how I would have placed these 2 types ordinarily. > > > > MFJ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 03:43:22 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:43:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> References: <414455B2.DB7FF2D3@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <7a3217050409122043507be915@mail.gmail.com> I think we'd be best off steering far clear from avowed irrationalists. I suppose I have become like so many ex-smokers who after having kicked the habit completely abhor it and those who still indulge. While I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that I abhor religious people, I can (and do) in good conscience profess that "the only good religion is a dead religion." Or as Stevie Wonder once put it: "When you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer, superstition ain't the way." http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/01E838D97B93BC78482569120002EB6B Zero On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:57:07 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > Seeding the concept of transhumanism in existing religeons might be a > dangerous > thought but given the concept of "group loyalty" most religeons hold, > once established , it could certainly spread like wildfire? From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 03:51:44 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 20:51:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Canuck's Incitement to kill Bush brings redcoats, brownshirts and white coats? In-Reply-To: <4144BB66.C1B75153@sasktel.net> References: <4144BB66.C1B75153@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <7a3217050409122051210f6164@mail.gmail.com> Like Ice T said: "Freedom Of Speech...Just Watch What You Say" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002LJF/ref=pd_luc_mri/104-9348565-3011937?v=glance&s=music&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&st Zero On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:11:02 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > Just having some fun with the internet security sniffer software......: > > Extropians might be regarded as people who think dangerous thoughts but > none of us would ever want to kill Bush. Instead, we'd like to freeze > him so that future societies can study his neural pathways and decrypt > his thoughts. > He'd just look so cute like a little Ken Doll in that dewar flask. > We could clone him and create 20-30 copies just to see "A-La-Boys from > Brazil" > if they could, despite their less privaleged starts in life rise to > become leaders in their own community or country. > > Then we'd all know if the Bush lineage is "nature or nurture". > > Whoa, better stop now or I might join the ranks of the fellow described > below....: > ************************************************** > > The Windsor Star > > Man charged with threatening Bush > > Star News Services > > Saturday, September 11, 2004 > > HALIFAX -- A man in Halifax has been charged with making death > threats against U.S. President George W. Bush over the Internet. > > Timothy George Andrew, 28, has been remanded for a psychiatric > assessment and is due back in court next week, the ATV news > network reported Friday. > > Threats allegedly found on an Internet message board included: > "Death to the president of the U.S.A. and destruction to that > nation's > Babylon" as well as "The president of the U.S.A. is king of terror" > and > "The president of the U.S.A. is going to be killed and will never > stand > again." > > RCMP said its investigation with the U.S. Secret Service started last > > October and ended late last month, resulting in charges of making > threats and threatening Bush. > > ? The Windsor Star 2004 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From hal at finney.org Mon Sep 13 04:18:02 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 21:18:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) Message-ID: <20040913041802.79FE657E2B@finney.org> I always enjoy these discussions. Issues of identity are difficult, and as Brett's arguments point out, have actual relevance today for those of us who might be considering signing up for cryonics. To Brett I would ask, what is it about modern cryonics that makes you confident that you would not survive? More specifically, if there were a treatment which put cells into suspended animation but did less damage to them, would that be acceptable to you? In Engines, Drexler described a hypothetical nanotech based form of suspended animation. Nanomachines would enter cells and shut them down in a more or less orderly fashion. Large molecules would be tagged and attached to each other via sticky cross-links. Light molecules like water could be removed. The whole thing could then be reduced to low temperature so that chemical reactions would be effectively arrested. In one sense, this does terrible damage to the cell. Cells in this suspended state would have little resemblance to living, active cells. But in another sense, there is no actual damage, unlike modern day cryonics. Cells would no longer be ripped open and shredded to bits, having to be reconstructed from scratch. The actual molecules would remain in the cells where they were before, at least the large molecules. Water and other small molecules would be replaced, but they have a pretty high turnover rate in biological cells anyway. How would you evaluate this kind of treatment? What are the specific tests you would apply in any form of cellular transformation, to decide whether it would preserve your identity? Hal From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Sep 13 05:29:58 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:29:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <20040910154936.36042.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001801c49952$bc0c30a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> I hafta wonder if Dan "the Forger" Rather is about to hang himself with this kinda stuff going around on the web: 1972 Email Casts Doubt on Bush Guard Service CBS reporter Dan Rather today released the text of a recently discovered email from then-Lt. George W. Bush's Air National Guard commanding officer which casts more doubt upon the military service of the man who would become the 43rd President of the United States. The revelation of the email comes just hours after questions were raised about the authenticity of typewritten memos from the same officer, shown yesterday by Mr. Rather on 60 Minutes. According to the previously unseen email message sent in May 1972 by squadron commander Jerry Killian, Lt. Bush phoned Col. Killian because "his internet connection was on the fritz and he couldn't IM me." Lt. Bush apparently wanted to talk about "how he can get out of coming to drill from now through November." According to Col. Killian's email, the young Bush wanted to go to Alabama to work as webmaster for a Republican candidate's website. Mr. Rather said the authenticity of the 32-year-old email has been confirmed by several Nigerian officials who specialize in electronic funds transfer by email. From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 13 07:10:17 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:10:17 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc><4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <00b701c49960$e02a5f80$4cfe4d0c@hal2001> "Brett Paatsch" > I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of fact. Yes, but if something can remember being me then that thing is me, that's why I'm not terrified to go to sleep at night, I'm confident in the morning something will remember being me. > I am my cellular substrate, I think you are yours. Our fundamental disagreement is that you think of yourself as a noun, I think of myself as an adjective; I am the way matter reacts when it is organized in a johnkclarkian way. I don't see how it could be any other way, there is nothing special about my atoms, they are run of the mill, completely generic, and are in constant flux anyway. As for Cryonics, I don't know if it could work or not. If the freezing process is chaotic then recovering the original pattern is probably impractical, if it's not chaotic then there is a chance. One thing is certain, if you're frozen your chance of survival is better than if you're eaten by worms or burned up; and given that the jackpot is astronomically large it seems worth buying a ticket even if your odds of wining are small. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From starman2100 at cableone.net Mon Sep 13 08:38:14 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:38:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns Message-ID: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 09:41:48 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:41:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:38:14 -0700, starman2100 wrote: > I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the hospitality field) > and today scoured the net for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what > would be best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or maim an out of control person, > but simply repel/put them down with a minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. > > I would appreciate whatever pointers anyone might have for me. > Sounds like Aikido self-defence techniques would be suitable for you. But you need a bit more than just reading a book or watching a DVD! Remember that violent people are usually *experienced* violent people. It is their way of life, not just a theoretical interest. You will need actual physical training to get your body to do what you want it to do. You should be able to find classes near you in Arizona. News article: "I wondered how I could defend myself and not hurt someone. I fell into Aikido," Nappier said. "I can't attack you with Aikido. I can't chop you. It's not like karate," said Nappier. "The ultimate goal is to be able to defend yourself, where no one is harmed - either the attacker or the victim." Best wishes, BillK From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Sep 13 13:16:34 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 06:16:34 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <000d01c49993$e79c7810$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > starman2100 at cableone.net > > What I find so strange is the person who viciously > assaulted me is a very intelligent, educated, successful and > respected member of the local community, but I realize > physically abusive people come from every socio-economic level... > > John > www.venturist.org > www.creeksidepreserve.com So sue him beyond recognition. You needn't worry about people who have money, they won't hurt you. Its those who are judgement proof that worry me. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 14:35:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409122043507be915@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Those who convince themselves that religion and the religious are purely or to a person irrational are themselves reaching irrational and unsupported conclusions. Your atheism is as much an irrational religion as the faith you left. There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do so. --- Zero Powers wrote: > I think we'd be best off steering far clear from avowed > irrationalists. I suppose I have become like so many ex-smokers who > after having kicked the habit completely abhor it and those who still > indulge. While I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to say that I > abhor religious people, I can (and do) in good conscience profess > that > "the only good religion is a dead religion." > > Or as Stevie Wonder once put it: "When you believe in things that you > don't understand, then you suffer, superstition ain't the way." > > http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/SongUnid/01E838D97B93BC78482569120002EB6B > > Zero > > On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 08:57:07 -0500, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures > Inc. wrote: > > > Seeding the concept of transhumanism in existing religeons might be > a > > dangerous > > thought but given the concept of "group loyalty" most religeons > hold, > > once established , it could certainly spread like wildfire? > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 14:44:23 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in > the hospitality field) and today scoured the net > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be > best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a > minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. Okay, lets make this clear: if you feel your life is threatened, yet you are not willing to go the extreme of maiming or even killing your assailant, your only option really is running around in circles and screaming at the top of your lungs while you wait to die or be victimized. Self defense rests primarily on your ability to communicate to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if the assailant pushes things, that you are not willing to be victimized to any degree. If your assailant is significantly more massive than you, AND has martial arts training, you need a weapon and you need to know how to use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to carry it, along with a firearms self defense course. Unless you are willing to use it, though, you might as well not even try. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Sep 13 14:49:56 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:49:56 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns Message-ID: <124020-22004911314495692@M2W054.mail2web.com> John wrote: "I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the hospitality field) and today scoured the net for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a minimum of harm done if I have no other choice." John, my suggestion is to press charges, now. Please do not be intimidated. There are many types of aggressor/victim relationships and they are not all between a man assaulting his partner or a woman assaulting her partner, or parents assaulting their children. If you play victim in this "relationship" then you may fall into the category of a person allowing this to happen because you are shamed, scared or eventually in denial that it ever happened. No one has the right to physically attack you and you do have a responsibility to yourself to protect yourself from any further attacks. Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 15:18:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] STATS: Proof of media bias... Message-ID: <20040913151819.19223.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/business/yourmoney/12view.html?ex=1095652800&en=662be44cd0308d8f&ei=5006&partner=ALTAVISTA1 Study proves media bias. The study: http://www.aei.org/docLib/20040913_588453%5B1%5D.pdf ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From kpj at sics.se Mon Sep 13 16:18:22 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:18:22 +0200 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: Message from "John K Clark" of "Mon, 13 Sep 2004 03:10:17 EDT." <00b701c49960$e02a5f80$4cfe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <200409131618.i8DGIMi11572@r2d2.sics.se> It appears as if John K Clark wrote: | |Yes, but if something can remember being me then that thing is me, that's |why I'm not terrified to go to sleep at night, I'm confident in the morning |something will remember being me. If someone copies your memories, edits them to serve some purpose, and makes a simulacrum of you, an android if you will, with those memories, will it "be" you? If you subscribe to the "I am my pattern." it is. If you subscribe to the "I am my subtrate." it is not. |Our fundamental disagreement is that you think of yourself as a noun, I |think of myself as an adjective; I am the way matter reacts when it is |organized in a johnkclarkian way. I don't see how it could be any other way, |there is nothing special about my atoms, they are run of the mill, |completely generic, and are in constant flux anyway. Questions, questions... 1. I think of myself as a verb - what am I? 2. How much of the johnclarkian pattern must be changed for it not to be a John Clark unit? From pharos at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 16:33:06 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:33:06 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > Self defense rests primarily on your ability to communicate > to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if the assailant > pushes things, that you are not willing to be victimized to any degree. > > If your assailant is significantly more massive than you, AND has > martial arts training, you need a weapon and you need to know how to > use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to carry it, along > with a firearms self defense course. Unless you are willing to use it, > though, you might as well not even try. > LOL :) Yup, if you dress in fatigues, wear a flak jacket, carry an AK47, with plenty of spare ammunition boxes hanging around, then I guess you will communicate something to the people around you. BillK From kpj at sics.se Mon Sep 13 16:33:49 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:33:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: Message from Mike Lorrey of "Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:35:10 PDT." <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409131633.i8DGXnN11621@r2d2.sics.se> It appears as if Mike Lorrey wrote: | |There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily |lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and |unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level |of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do |so. What kind of "religious" did you have in mind? In what way does the "spiritual" people differ from people who believe in e.g. small green men from Mars or Santa Claus? Both apparently believe in something without having any hard data supporting their reality models. I have noticed that beliefs held for a long time ("tradition") are often held in reverence. Why is that? As to the "X is rational, but believes in Y": I know people who are very rational who become total lunatics when somebody pushes their button, be it a religion or some politic/quasi-philosophic belief system like racism. Personally, I find such people rather hard to communicate with as you always have to make sure you don't start a jihad reaction in them. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 16:45:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <200409131618.i8DGIMi11572@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040913164502.30522.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- KPJ wrote: > It appears as if John K Clark wrote: > | > |Yes, but if something can remember being me then that thing is me, > that's > |why I'm not terrified to go to sleep at night, I'm confident in the > morning > |something will remember being me. > > If someone copies your memories, edits them to serve some purpose, > and makes a simulacrum of you, an android if you will, with those > memories, will it "be" you? > > If you subscribe to the "I am my pattern." it is. > If you subscribe to the "I am my subtrate." it is not. In the legal world, a document sent via fax (not printed on thermal paper) is considered a 'true copy', not a 'true original'. The pattern may be identical for all practical purposes, but it is still just a copy of the original. Semantic games about waking up in the morning are bogus. Only a fool would use such as a parallel, because everyone knows that you go to sleep, and you can be observed through the night, and wake up still you in the morning, the true original. > > |Our fundamental disagreement is that you think of yourself as a > noun, I > |think of myself as an adjective; I am the way matter reacts when it > is > |organized in a johnkclarkian way. I don't see how it could be any > other way, > |there is nothing special about my atoms, they are run of the mill, > |completely generic, and are in constant flux anyway. > > Questions, questions... > > 1. I think of myself as a verb - what am I? You are a meat puppet predending to be a person, as far as I can see, who spins entertaining stories about identity in order sow FUD among the real people... > > 2. How much of the johnclarkian pattern must be changed for it not to > be a John Clark unit? To have a memory of being one whose intent was to assume the identity of the John Clark unit and kill the original. For those who haven't been watching SciFi channel lately, I suggest you get yourself a copy of the Gary Senise movie "Impostor". ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Sep 13 16:47:27 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040913164727.82763.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > > I was just recently physically assaulted in my > workplace (I work in > > the hospitality field) and today scoured the net > > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not > sure what would be > > best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > > maim an out of control person, but simply > repel/put them down with a > > minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. > > Okay, lets make this clear: if you feel your life is > threatened, yet > you are not willing to go the extreme of maiming or > even killing your > assailant, your only option really is running around > in circles and > screaming at the top of your lungs while you wait to > die or be > victimized. Incorrect. > Self defense rests primarily on your > ability to communicate > to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if > the assailant > pushes things, that you are not willing to be > victimized to any degree. Correct, but it does not necessarily imply the former, in the context that starman was using. It may be necessary to maim or kill - but that does not mean one must start off with that as its aim as a first resort. Indeed, it is quite possible to defend oneself in many fights without ever inflicting serious injury - especially if one focuses on the communication, rather than the proof. ("Bluff", except that you can back it up enough that a would-be assailant will believe the rest.) > If your assailant is significantly more massive than > you, AND has > martial arts training, you need a weapon and you > need to know how to > use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to > carry it, along > with a firearms self defense course. I have stopped opponents significantly more massive than myself who had martial arts training, while I myself was armed only with my hands. A gun is not necessary; a focus on your objective is. (But then, know that most people with martial arts training will also have the sense not to use it for anti-social purposes; intoxicants like alcohol may temporarily remove this sense, but they will also practically temporarily remove the training. Most people who make trouble are untrained brawlers. There are exceptions, but these are so rare they can be ignored in practice except for the highest security situations.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 16:55:42 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] "ExtropianTrash"-philosophy for a post-modernworldVS JW's] In-Reply-To: <200409131633.i8DGXnN11621@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040913165542.1357.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- KPJ wrote: > It appears as if Mike Lorrey wrote: > | > |There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their > daily > |lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and > |unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that > level > |of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to > do > |so. > > What kind of "religious" did you have in mind? Well, there are plenty of people who are entirely scientific in their daily lives, who look at documents like the Bible, etc as historical and often metaphorical documents and histories of man's spiritual development, but not literally true in every fact or assertion. Such people can also wrap their minds around the idea that there are things beyond the ability of physics to explain, or beyond our ability to observe, test, and experiment with. Even much of physics theories are just that, theory, and cannot and likely will not be tested for quite a while because they would essentially require some rather high risk macro-scale engineering. Because of this, those who believe in M theory are no LESS religious than many Jesuit priests. Those who believe that the Simulation Argument is likely true are evincing belief in what is merely a modern articulation of a creator myth. > > In what way does the "spiritual" people differ from people who > believe in e.g. small green men from Mars or Santa Claus? Both > apparently believe in something without having any hard data > supporting their reality models. As do astrophysics theoriests. I seem to recall a talk by Stephen Hawking a few years ago where he said that virtually anything can come out of a black hole, and made reference to some mythical creatures and characters.... > > Personally, I find such people rather hard to communicate with as you > always have to make sure you don't start a jihad reaction in them. Once again, you are improperly and without evidence (how very unscientific of you) assigning the stereotype of fanatic upon all people of religious faith, which is wrong. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 13 19:12:26 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 15:12:26 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <200409131618.i8DGIMi11572@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <004b01c499c5$a3741f80$9dff4d0c@hal2001> "KPJ" Wrote: > If someone copies your memories, edits them to serve > some purpose, and makes a simulacrum of you, > an android if you will, with those memories, will it "be" you? Depends on how extensive the editing is and I don?t believe survival is an all or nothing matter. > I think of myself as a verb - what am I? You are wrong. Your pattern causes your actions not the other way round. > How much of the johnclarkian pattern must be changed for it > not to be a John Clark unit? 42 John K Clark jonkc at att.net From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 13 20:00:40 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:00:40 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040913164502.30522.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00a401c499cc$67e670b0$9dff4d0c@hal2001> "Mike Lorrey" > In the legal world, a document sent via fax (not printed > on thermal paper) is considered a 'true copy', not a 'true original'. If there is one thing in the universe you can be absolutely certain of it is that you will not find philosophical enlightenment from lawyers. > everyone knows that you go to sleep, and you can be > observed through the night, and wake up still you in the > morning, the true original. But not everything has been continuous during the night, not the very most important thing in fact. We know from first hand experience that our consciousness undergoes a radical change when we sleep, sometimes stopping completely for hours at a time. > I suggest you get yourself a copy of the Gary Senise movie "Impostor". A COPY of the movie? No no no, that won't do at all, I want to see the one true original movie! If I haven't convinced you that I'm right it's because you just saw a copy of my message, a pale imitation of the glorious one true original Email; it would have had you eating out of my hand. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From sentience at pobox.com Mon Sep 13 20:05:07 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > Those who convince themselves that religion and the religious are > purely or to a person irrational are themselves reaching irrational and > unsupported conclusions. Your atheism is as much an irrational religion > as the faith you left. > > There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily > lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and > unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level > of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do > so. Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. Once upon a time the stars were mysteries, life was mysterious, matter was mysterious, unexplained and unexplainable. But, once again, a blank spot on the map is not a blank spot on the territory. There are mysterious questions, never mysterious answers. People have no sense of history, no sense of how reasonable past errors seemed *at the time*. If only I had *personally* postulated astrological mysteries and discovered Newtonian gravitation, *personally* postulated alchemical mysteries and discovered chemistry, *personally* postulated vitalistic mysteries and discovered biology. I would have invented a mysterious explanation for consciousness and thought to myself, "No way am I falling for that again." People don't assign history the same weight as personal experience, even if the universe repeats the lesson over and over and over. There are human stories told around a campfire, full of mighty heroes and passionate gods and comforting resolutions; and there are the stories the universe whispers to itself, strange dreams of physics equations, an unbelievable style of storytelling in which things are explained by maths instead of morals. It seems to me that the human style of storytelling - you know, the one that just plain doesn't work - is what people call "religious" or "spiritual". It takes a mature rationalist indeed to live in the universe the Way it really is, one coherent unified mathematical process with not a single shred of human-style storytelling ("spirituality") in it. It may seem harsh - ungracious - for rationalists to demand so complete a triumph, to leave not a single shred of consolation for spiritualists; but the truth is not a compromise between political factions. This is the way the universe has always been. The rationalists did not invent this answer, only prove themselves mature enough to accept it. Bayes' Theorem plus a Kolmogorov distribution over prior probabilities is complete. It assigns a probability to everything. The probability it assigns to complex unsupported hypotheses is extremely low. And this coincides with humanity's experience, that when you have a blank area on the map you cannot just draw in whatever you like and magically get it right, even if, at the time, no one can "prove" you wrong. No one can "prove" you won't win the lottery, in the sense of presenting contradictory evidence, but the prior probability assigned by probability theory is infinitesimal. Probability theory is vastly more powerful than people clutching their imaginary maps would like to believe, and if you are the tiniest bit more confident in an unsupported complex hypthesis than the infinitesimal token probability the math calls for, you have departed the way of rationality. Religion and the religious are irrational, in the sense that they assign higher confidence to certain propositions than probability theory calls for. Ignorance of the math is, in some ways, an excuse - it means that at least some spiritual people have not knowingly turned against the truth, they honestly believe that it's okay to draw in whatever they like on blank areas of the map. But that doesn't change the math, and so they're still irrational. There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on with your lives, knowing that you alone are in charge. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 13 20:18:37 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 13:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <00a401c499cc$67e670b0$9dff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20040913201837.30294.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > "Mike Lorrey" > > > In the legal world, a document sent via fax (not printed > > on thermal paper) is considered a 'true copy', not a 'true > original'. > > If there is one thing in the universe you can be absolutely certain > of it is that you will not find philosophical enlightenment from > lawyers. Yeah, that US Constitution was a waste of time.... > > > everyone knows that you go to sleep, and you can be > > observed through the night, and wake up still you in the > > morning, the true original. > > But not everything has been continuous during the night, not the very > most > important thing in fact. We know from first hand experience that our > consciousness undergoes a radical change when we sleep, sometimes > stopping completely for hours at a time. Personal computers scan and defragment their hard drives and root out viruses at night sometimes. This can cause a radical change in the sequence of information on that hard drive. They don't stop being the same PC. Similarly, your conciousness undergoes a radical change when it is on drugs. You don't stop being the same person when you are high, you are just being more stupid than usual. Now, you might suppose that what if we each got our minds backed up somewhere at night, our brains were totally wiped clean, then the backup was reloaded onto our now clean brains. In this hypothetical scenario, you and the backup copy of you stopped being the same person one instantiation of thought after the backup finished. The rest of the world, and the backup copy might be convinced that they are reasonable facsimiles of you, but the you that developed in the time between the backup finishing, and the start of the erasing, is now dead. The more time that passes between these two events, the more significant that fact is. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hibbert at mydruthers.com Mon Sep 13 21:15:20 2004 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:15:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <41460DE8.30502@mydruthers.com> Eliezer wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to > learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must > commit to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours > a day seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for > relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where > that darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over > the things you want to believe. This seems like hyperbole to me. Perhaps it is intended as hyperbole. Certainly in the rest of his post, Eliezer focused on your beliefs on which you take action. But here, he seems to be saying that there is no rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking about and acting on the truth. The part that seems hyperbolic is that this eschews time for relaxation, time for fiction, time for art. One of the ways that I entertain myself is reading science fiction and occasionally fantasy. I can't defend them as a search for what's real, or an exploration of deeper truths. Occasionally that's what I find, but the goal is time off from the hard work that Eliezer advocates we spend all our (waking) time on. I think he's overstating the case, and the time away from what's real seemed to be at least part of what Mike Lorrey was pointing at. > Mike Lorrey wrote: >> There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their >> daily lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and >> unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that >> level of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were >> able to do so. I am not an advocate of "mature spirituality", but if Mike means this practice is a species of relaxation, or "renewing one's energy", then I don't seem the harm as long as it doesn't effect the practitioners' actions or expectations about how the world works. But when it bleeds over into a belief that when an egg and a sperm touch each other something magic happens, that's stepping over the line. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu Mon Sep 13 21:28:24 2004 From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:28:24 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 9/11 Tribute (?) - The Way It Should Have Been Message-ID: <414610F8.2D9F185@Genius.UCSD.edu> [JM: great little piece here, sorry I couldn't send it out a couple of days ago. Enjoy :-)] ==================================================== The Way It Should Have Been, by Bob Wallace, June 17, 2004 Hijacker: This is a hijacking! I have a boxcutter! Grandma: I have a .45! Now reach for the sky, or I'll put a hole in that diaper-hat on top of your pointy little head! Hijacker: What?! I did not know Americans were allowed to carry handguns on airplanes! I thought the liberals took away your firearms and your gonads! Grandma: What alternate universe do you live in? This is America, land of the free and home of the brave! And the armed! Bureaucrat: Everyone put away your handguns and surrender! Do what they tell you! There won't be any trouble if you just act like sheep! Grandma: Shut up you, you worthless idjit! (Smacks bureaucrat on top of his head, which causes him to cry like a girl.) Anyone who listens to anything said by anyone from the government deserves exactly what they get! Hijacker: Surrender! We are going to fly these planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the White House! Grandma: Bringing a knife to a gunfight, huh? Hijacker: My faith will protect me! Grandma: Oh yeah? (BLAM!) Hijacker: AIEEEE!! The 72 virgins await me! (Topples over, exits.) Other hijackers: Look! Everyone on the plane has handguns pointed at us! We surrender! Passengers: (chorus): Oh, really? Osama bin Laden: Dang. My plan to draw the US into a war so the entire Islamic world will hate them just fell apart! Now I'll have to find another way to get America to bleed itself dry of blood and treasure! Drats! My nefarious plans foiled! (Looks pensive.) But then, on the other hand, I'm not going to end up a pile of squashed bones under a mountain in Afghanistan! George Bush: Ah, shoot. Now I'll go down in history as a mediocre president who presided over a miniscule tax cut and some minor deregulation. (Looks pensive.) Well, I guess that's better than being known as a stumble-tongued fool who fell into Osama bin Laden's trap and started World War III! Neocons: Dang! Our insane leftist plans to conquer the Middle East just went up in smoke! (Looks pensive.) On the other hand, at least we're not going to be exposed as the deluded, traitorous, crackpot, chickenhawk armchair-general cowards that all of us really are! 800+ Americans: Yay! Now we don't have to die before our time in a worthless effort to impose our values and way of life on people who don't want them! 1000+ Americans: Yay! Now I won't lose my eyes, arms, legs, brain and all kinds of body parts! 10,000+ Iraqis: Yay! Same with us! Father: Hi, honey! I'm home from my job at the World Trade Center! Wife: Thank goodness! A bunch of nuts tried to hijack four planes and fly them right into the building where you work! The passengers shot a bunch of them and the rest surrendered! Father: Wow! I might have been killed! Good thing those passengers were armed! Why, 3000 people could have been killed had the hijackers succeeded! Daughter: Daddy! You're home! Father: Yep, honey, safe and sound, thanks to the brave citizens of this wonderful country, who understand how utterly foolish and worthless the government really is. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, right honey? (A reader sent in this "correction") Daughter: It sure is, daddy! Yay for the real America, and real Americans! Now can we please run over to the shooting range so I can get in my practice rounds with the rest of my Advanced Shooting Team? Please please please??? From rafal at smigrodzki.org Mon Sep 13 21:44:21 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:44:21 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> Brett Paatsch wrote: > >I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of >fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I >don't present to myself as a pattern. > > ### There are many categories of objects, whose identity is commonly interpreted in different ways: e.g. sculptures are treated as unique objects, but art prints can be produced in large series. Thus, for the art connoisseur, the copy of a famous sculpture is only a copy, but every print from the original artist's print series is an original. The identity of a bank account is defined by the routing and account numbers, not the physical location of the stored data. Thus, the concept of "identity" is in fact a whole slew of related but distinct concepts, with different properties and referents. I accept that your (Brett Paatch's) identity is what you say, since this is what is produced by the processes in your brain (and my meta-rule for such definitions is that they are produced by the brains in a self-referential manner) . It's a fact, albeit a fact pertaining only to Brett Paatsch. Now, my own, Rafal's identity is defined differently. It is also a fact. Although the definitions are different, they are not contradictory - they apply to different objects, just like the varied definitions of an "original" in the art world. Even though your definition of self is different from mine (not even analogous), I do not think you are mistaken - merely different. Do you see the point? I don't think you are mistaken, not mistaken about yourself, but you are mistaken where you believe me to be mistaken about myself. In other words, you are a universalist, believing that a single definition of self (your own) is the only correct one ("all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self....."), while I am a pluralist, letting everyone decide where their own (and only their own) identities lie. Thus, for me they are indeed a matter of taste, unless somebody with enough enforcing power decrees a single definition to apply to various persons. You can conceive of others being different in their thinking from you, and yet not mistaken, can't you? I find it to be a useful ability. ---------------------------------------- >But you ITs do postulate that you can exist as disembodied >information don't you? > ### What do you mean by "disembodied"? If you mean "not in a human body but in a different material substrate with sufficient information-processing capability", then yes, this is what I believe is possible, and it is fully compatible with current scientific views. If you mean "functioning without any material substrate", then no, of course not. --------------------------- > > > > >>The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain >>physically feasible states of the world (future world states which >>contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental >>setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), >>and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures >>appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, >>or by means of information transfer. The only difference between >>you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain >>only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a >>belief about material facts. >> >> > >I think the difference between us is that you think that you can in >some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the >fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to >determine that pattern. > > > ### Let me ask you something: do you think that it could be in principle possible to analyze the material structure of your brain, and use the information to make a brain which would behave in a way consistent (similar enough) with you (e.g. identify pictures of your mother as "My mother", or on seeing things you like say it likes them, etc.etc.)? If you think this is principally impossible, you would need to give some physical explanation why. But, if you agree that a sufficiently advanced technology could produce such a brain, then you cannot say we disagree about facts. Both you and me would agree that it is physically possible to make copies of our brains that would act similarly to the originals. The only difference is that I am sufficiently satisfied with/enthusiastic about the prospect of having such a copy in the future that I am willing to pay for cryonics (and yes, I even value this situation equally with "survival" by spatiotemporal continuity of cells), while a copy of you would not elicit sufficient interest from you. ----------------------------------------- >>A question of value, not fact. >> >> > >That I exist as a biological being is a fact. That you do probably >is also a fact. > > ### Oh, sure, both of us have biological sides. Yet, we also have IT-aspects, which I value, and you don't. ------------------------------ > >Thats not a very scientific thing to say. How could you possible know >that all academic detractors views come purely form ignorance? > > ### I have not seen a single, coherent, scientific dismissal of cryonics, despite reading on the subject for some time. All of them are either silly one-liner quips ("you can't turn a hamburger into a cow"), or pure expressions of faith ("it simply can't work"). Never any numbers, any technical analysis. Therefore, I am justified in treating scientific detractors of cryonics as ignorant, since if they knew any scientific arguments, they would have used them. ------------------------------------ >How could you even be sure that you know who all the academic >detractors are? > ### I didn't use the universal quantifier. I only said "I can assure you that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics comes purely from ignorance", which doesn't exclude the possibility that a few know what they are talking about it, but so far failed to publish it. But, if you know any single, published, peer-reviewed dismissal of cryonics, give me the link. ----------------------- >If you do have a precise notion of how it could work step by step >then, if your notion is internally inconsistent I could possibly point >that out to you. If its not internally inconsistent and its step by >step - perhaps you'd have persuaded me. > >If you can't say what cryonics is for you, and outline a path at >least as good as Ralph Merkle in his paper then it might be that >I can't find an internal contradiction for you because your idea >is not developed enough to be demonstrably wrong. > > ### Well, here is how I imagine cryonics might work for me: Cryonic vitrification very soon after death (a few hours, hopefully a few minutes) will preserve the brain structure down to the level of synapses, with intact synaptic protein levels (which define the synaptic strength), and the levels of other proteins, including transcription factors in the nucleus, and most RNA and protein in the cytoplasm and the ECM. In other words, AFAIK the only things that are lost are the momentary concentrations of ions and the resulting short-time-frame electric excitation patterns, which are not important for long-term and medium term memories. After a period of storage, a laser tissue machining device coupled to a multi-head near-field scanning confocal microscope array will evaporate layers of tissue, while the surface will be washed with a mixture of antibody stains (with quantum-dot labeling) for every single molecular species identified in the decades of my suspension as being important for the behavioral manifestations of consciousness. This will allow 3-D reconstruction of the whole brain connection pattern including the synaptic strengths (not possible using the microtome because of tissue deformation, but doable using laser machining). All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). Then a sufficiently powerful computer will construct a neural network replicating the connectivity pattern and the synaptic strengths, as well as the rules of modification of the synaptic strengths in the course of information processing, producing a device which will be behaviorally sufficiently similar to me as to satisfy my desires regarding future states of the world (to silence critics I don't even need to say that I have been "reincarnated" or "brought back to life", or "survived", or any such rigmarole - I only say that both I today and the device in the future are satisfied with this particular outcome, and consider the cryonics money well-spent). Does this describe a sufficiently developed idea? Do you know of any specific technical issues which would prevent it from working as advertised? I could come up with some ballpark estimates of the file sizes, numbers of antibodies, speed of laser machining, but these are all mere technical details (nothing that would be unreasonably expensive or time-consuming, as far as I can tell). Of course, unexpected developments in technology could make it easier (e.g. molecular nanotechnology), but would not impact the general feasibility of the plan. Rafal From sentience at pobox.com Mon Sep 13 21:45:43 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:45:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <41460DE8.30502@mydruthers.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> <41460DE8.30502@mydruthers.com> Message-ID: <41461507.3050805@pobox.com> Chris Hibbert wrote: > Eliezer wrote: > >> Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to >> learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must >> commit to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours >> a day seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for >> relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where >> that darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over >> the things you want to believe. > > This seems like hyperbole to me. Perhaps it is intended as hyperbole. > Certainly in the rest of his post, Eliezer focused on your beliefs on > which you take action. But here, he seems to be saying that there is no > rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking about > and acting on the truth. Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events described therein. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From rafal at smigrodzki.org Mon Sep 13 21:58:30 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:58:30 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> <20040913144423.40445.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41461806.3040006@smigrodzki.org> BillK wrote: >On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:44:23 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >>Self defense rests primarily on your ability to communicate >>to the assailant that you WILL go to the extreme if the assailant >>pushes things, that you are not willing to be victimized to any degree. >> >>If your assailant is significantly more massive than you, AND has >>martial arts training, you need a weapon and you need to know how to >>use it. Specifically you need a gun and a license to carry it, along >>with a firearms self defense course. Unless you are willing to use it, >>though, you might as well not even try. >> >> >> > >LOL :) >Yup, if you dress in fatigues, wear a flak jacket, carry an AK47, with >plenty of spare ammunition boxes hanging around, then I guess you will >communicate something to the people around you. > ### Outlandish outfits are not needed: the old Czech P 40, properly used, will protect you by communicating to the assailant that this is his last assault, ever. Rafal From godsdice at gmail.com Mon Sep 13 23:20:25 2004 From: godsdice at gmail.com (xllb) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:20:25 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Javier is building steam Message-ID: http://www.solar.ifa.hawaii.edu./Tropical/tropical.html Rick -- Hell is overkill. Dogma blinds. From velvethum at hotmail.com Mon Sep 13 23:57:13 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (s. p.) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:57:13 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Personal Identity (was: A view on cryonics) Message-ID: Giulio wrote: >In a sense you are not the same person after getting a haircut: some matter >is missing, you look different in the mirror so after a while your >self-image is affected, etc. >But of course you are the same person after getting a haircut. This is correct. The reason why a person remains the same after getting a haircut is that even though some atoms are lost, these atoms had no influence on personal identity in the first place. More precisely, personal identity depends entirely on the condition of one's mind and in this case the lost atoms did not affect personal identity because they were not part of the mind structure. Brett wrote: >I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I don't present to myself as a pattern. I agree. Some people prefer describing personal identity in terms of "tastes" or spiritual values. These attitudes often lead to some bizarre views such as "identity is an illusion" or "even though identity is not an illusion, we will never get a handle on what it is which gives me a license to define identity in whatever terms I like and you better respect it". These attitudes are hard to understand because personal identity depends on a mind powered by the brain which is a physical object, and like all other objects, it can and should be subject to scientific investigation. There is nothing magical about personal identity even though the concept is abstracted from the abstraction of the brain (brain->mind->identity). Moreover, once we agree that, in science, there's only one correct explanation for something at the exclusion of other theories, we can say that there can only be one explanation/description of personal identity that is true and all other theories are false. With that said, I don't think that the one true definition of what personal identity is should be expected to be grasped easily. It is easy to expect that personal identity depends entirely on the mind pattern, and you'll have more friends when you convince yourself of that. "Personal identity depends entirely on mind pattern" view is so much easier to grasp than the alternatives because it gives a warm feeling of assurance that as long as there exist records detailing our mind structures, we can expect to live forever. Besides, "personal identity depends entirely on mind pattern" view is easily understandable which adds to its popularity. Well, don't get me wrong. "Mind pattern defines personal identity" theory is not entirely false. The reason why it breaks down so easily when applied to even most basic thought experiments is the same as why it is not entirely false - it's simply not a complete/precise theory because it focuses on just one of the aspects of what PI is. Obviously, to some extent, PI depends on the mind pattern in a sense that if mind pattern changes or is damaged, it must influence PI, but is that all there is to it? I assume here that all people who think about PI have assumed that the concept should be grounded (=what PI depends on most) in mind. However, there is great potential for problems when we ground PI in the incorrect *definition* of the mind. Perhaps that's why there are many disagreements when it comes to debating PI. In my view it is incorrect to define mind as a mind pattern because patterns are static and our minds are dynamic. The reason why "mind pattern" view is not entirely false, but merely incomplete, is that it ignores the dynamic nature of our minds. That dynamic manifests itself not as a pattern but as a *process* that this pattern enters into. We are able to think and be conscious not because our mind structures carry this or other pattern but because there exists an process that executes on that pattern. Analogously, mind pattern is just like a computer software loaded onto a hardware (brain). If the power is cut to the computer, the machine just sits there and does nothing. It is "dead". It comes to "life" only when the electricity flows through hardware and forces software-defined processes to take place. "Life", however, is not, in this case, a function of electricity but the function of an overall process that happens within the system. The mental existence likewise can only occur when electrical signals flow through our brainware-software, i.e. that existence/life is totally dependent on the process that executes on the mind pattern. Life is a process, not a pattern. Next step is to define the parameters of a process. Each process is defined by matter flowing through space and time. Mind process can therefore be defined as a function of the flow of matter in space and time also, and since personal identity is grounded in the mind process, it can only be defined by matter flowing through space-time. Example: Suppose some person uploads his mind pattern onto 2 machines which now run his mind. Question: Do these coexisting uploads share the same PI? Answer: They do not, because each mind process is defined by parameters (matter in space-time) that do not share the same exact values. These uploads share the same *kind* of mind process but their identities are different. They are not the same person but perfect clones only. Question: If one of the uploads is damaged beyond repair (dies), does it mean the damaged upload will still live because the other upload will? Answer: No, the damaged upload dies and won't live again unless you time travel and physically transport it to the present. His subjective experience is now death (=nothingness). Slawomir Paliwoda _________________________________________________________________ Don?t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 00:43:54 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <41461507.3050805@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you > should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence > too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in > deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, > so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events > described therein. If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 00:53:04 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:53:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives Message-ID: It seems the US military has revived the idea of logging everything a soldier sees and does in battle. I had wondered how long this would take. I would like one of these myself! http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,64911,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html I wonder what would happen to the legal system if everyone had a solid copy of all of their own actions recorded. How would murder and other crimes be affected? WOuld it really be a violation of privacy if you had control over the information? Lots to think about here. Shouldn't we be able to get something similar to this in the next 5 years? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.bridger at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 01:30:45 2004 From: paul.bridger at gmail.com (Paul Bridger) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:30:45 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41461507.3050805@pobox.com> <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3fec89404091318304d2e8406@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet against the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. Chris Hibbert: >But here, he seems to be saying that there is no >rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking about >and acting on the truth. >The part that seems hyperbolic is that this eschews time for relaxation, >time for fiction, time for art. It's rational to relax when you need it. Just don't expect any work to be completed while you read fiction. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 14 02:43:20 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:43:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101c49a04$9c51cdd0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Mike Lorrey > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet > against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey Speaking of Eliezer's rules, happy birthday Eliezer, altho I realize im a couple days late. spike From sentience at pobox.com Tue Sep 14 03:24:12 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:24:12 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040914004354.36042.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4146645C.5020205@pobox.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > >>Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you >>should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence >>too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in >>deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, >>so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events >>described therein. > > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? Yes, where's the adrenaline rush of gambling if you end up becoming wealthier and wealthier in the long run instead of losing all your money? Why, if everyone followed eliezers rules, people would be able to tell whether they were betting with or against the odds before deciding whether to bet. Expert poker players would stop drawing to inside straights, and where's the skill in that? ...am I missing something here? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 04:19:35 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:19:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> References: <7a321705040902230011985d81@mail.gmail.com> <054101c4917c$fbe66890$6401a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <7a321705040913211959b9e37f@mail.gmail.com> Spike, looks like your skeptic engine is humming along just fine. No need for any tune-ups there... BBC News Online is reporting that a radio signal from deep space is not from aliens, according to astronomers. The scientists quelled rumors that spread across the web after New Scientist magazine reported that a signal picked up by a telescope in Puerto Rico might be from an alien civilization. But the Seti at home project's chief scientist, Dr. Dan Wertheimer, told BBC that, "It's all hype and noise?. We have nothing that is unusual." The BBC News Online story also cited Dr. Paul Horowitz of Harvard University. "It's not much of anything at all. We're not investigating it further," Horowitz said, according to the story. He reportedly said what the telescope picked up was "not new and definitely not a signal." http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,64818,00.html/wn_ascii On Thu, 2 Sep 2004 23:12:20 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Zero Powers > > > > WASHINGTON: Scientists from SETI, the worldwide project for Search for > > Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence claim to have detected what they > > believe to be the first radio signal from an alien civilisation. > ... > > > http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/837354.cms > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine. They list > Dr. Korpela as a "SETI scientist", but all the google hits > on him show only his involvement with SETI at home. > > Zen koan: SETI at home and SETI are two very different things. > > spike From hal at finney.org Tue Sep 14 04:29:25 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives Message-ID: <20040914042925.964D257E2B@finney.org> Kevin Freels writes: > It seems the US military has revived the idea of logging > everything a soldier sees and does in battle. I had wondered > how long this would take. I would like one of these myself! > http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,64911,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html I would too, especially in combination with Steve Mann's eyetap concept, http://www.eyetap.org/research/eyetap.html . > I wonder what would happen to the legal system if everyone had a solid > copy of all of their own actions recorded. How would murder and other > crimes be affected? WOuld it really be a violation of privacy if you > had control over the information? Lots to think about here. Shouldn't > we be able to get something similar to this in the next 5 years? Robert Sawyer's Neanderthal society in Hominids, http://www.sfwriter.com/exho.htm, has a simimlar concept. Everyone wears a monitoring device which records everything that happens. This helps to keep crime low, although the Neanderthal society was so utopian and unrealistic that I didn't find it very convincing. I see several problems with using the technology for preventing crime. First, if it is supposed to incriminate the perpetrator by being captured on the victim's device, that will just make sure that the devices are stolen or disabled by attackers. Second, of course the perpetrator would not carry such a device of his own while committing a crime (at least, most would not; there have been several cases where people got caught by videotaping their own criminal actions). And third, if the devices are to provide an alibi for people falsely accused of crime, the problem will be with people altering or fooling them into providing fake evidence. Maybe they could be made tamper resistant but it is hard to stop all forms of human ingenuity. However if we move away from these interpersonal uses and just think about recordings used by the person who made them, then that avoids most of these problems. There are still some big privacy issues though. Many people won't be too thrilled about being in somebody else's recordings. And there's nothing to stop people from showing them around. So there are some tough issues there. Just as camera phones are becoming widespread, places are starting to ban taking pictures. We may see a similar backlash against ubiquitous personal recorders. Hal From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 04:51:17 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:51:17 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Step Toward Universal Computing In-Reply-To: <4179196.1095070649796.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> References: <4179196.1095070649796.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> Message-ID: <7a3217050409132151516a6e14@mail.gmail.com> Now that's pretty darn cool! Zero ************************* Step Toward Universal Computing Wired News Sep. 13, 2004 ************************* Transitive Corp. of Los Gatos, California claims to have cracked one of most elusive goals of the software industry: a near-universal emulator (called QuickTransit) that allows software developed for one platform to run on any other, with almost no performance... http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=3717&m=7817 From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 14 05:25:35 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:25:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040912162330.01bcd788@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > From: Zero Powers [mailto:zero.powers at gmail.com] > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine... spike > > Spike, looks like your skeptic engine is humming along just fine. No > need for any tune-ups there... > > BBC News Online is reporting that a radio signal from deep space is > not from aliens, according to astronomers... A few weeks ago I got a chance to meet and speak with Dr. Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute. When or if she announces a radio signal that appears to be from ET technology, that news story will have my full and undivided. Just like Jody Foster did the whole time I was viewing Contact. {8-] I need to look into these other guys, the SETI at homers. They probably have made important contributions, but I need to study their data input, see where and how much they are getting, assure myself that they are making optimal use of all those idle computer cycles they are having donated. I might pull one of my machines off of GIMPS and turn SETI at home back on. Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they careful to never give out the same segment multiple times? spike From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 05:46:08 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:46:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091322463a86b9e6@mail.gmail.com> Eliezer, very nicely put. I know it takes time to put together (and type) a well-thought-out, coherent message. And it can be disheartening at times to do so only to have people basically thumb their nose and say "well I still think you're wrong, and your mother dresses you funny." But I just wanted to let you know I found your post thought provoking and enlightening. Take care Zero On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Those who convince themselves that religion and the religious are > > purely or to a person irrational are themselves reaching irrational and > > unsupported conclusions. Your atheism is as much an irrational religion > > as the faith you left. > > > > There are plenty of people who are completely rational in their daily > > lives, yet are religious about that which is unexplained and > > unexplainable. That you never were able to make the leap to that level > > of mature spirituality is not the problem of those who were able to do > > so. > > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it > as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being > rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a > week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some > comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient > rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. > > Once upon a time the stars were mysteries, life was mysterious, matter was > mysterious, unexplained and unexplainable. But, once again, a blank spot > on the map is not a blank spot on the territory. There are mysterious > questions, never mysterious answers. People have no sense of history, no > sense of how reasonable past errors seemed *at the time*. If only I had > *personally* postulated astrological mysteries and discovered Newtonian > gravitation, *personally* postulated alchemical mysteries and discovered > chemistry, *personally* postulated vitalistic mysteries and discovered > biology. I would have invented a mysterious explanation for consciousness > and thought to myself, "No way am I falling for that again." People don't > assign history the same weight as personal experience, even if the universe > repeats the lesson over and over and over. > > There are human stories told around a campfire, full of mighty heroes and > passionate gods and comforting resolutions; and there are the stories the > universe whispers to itself, strange dreams of physics equations, an > unbelievable style of storytelling in which things are explained by maths > instead of morals. It seems to me that the human style of storytelling - > you know, the one that just plain doesn't work - is what people call > "religious" or "spiritual". It takes a mature rationalist indeed to live > in the universe the Way it really is, one coherent unified mathematical > process with not a single shred of human-style storytelling > ("spirituality") in it. It may seem harsh - ungracious - for rationalists > to demand so complete a triumph, to leave not a single shred of consolation > for spiritualists; but the truth is not a compromise between political > factions. This is the way the universe has always been. The rationalists > did not invent this answer, only prove themselves mature enough to accept it. > > Bayes' Theorem plus a Kolmogorov distribution over prior probabilities is > complete. It assigns a probability to everything. The probability it > assigns to complex unsupported hypotheses is extremely low. And this > coincides with humanity's experience, that when you have a blank area on > the map you cannot just draw in whatever you like and magically get it > right, even if, at the time, no one can "prove" you wrong. No one can > "prove" you won't win the lottery, in the sense of presenting contradictory > evidence, but the prior probability assigned by probability theory is > infinitesimal. Probability theory is vastly more powerful than people > clutching their imaginary maps would like to believe, and if you are the > tiniest bit more confident in an unsupported complex hypthesis than the > infinitesimal token probability the math calls for, you have departed the > way of rationality. > > Religion and the religious are irrational, in the sense that they assign > higher confidence to certain propositions than probability theory calls > for. Ignorance of the math is, in some ways, an excuse - it means that at > least some spiritual people have not knowingly turned against the truth, > they honestly believe that it's okay to draw in whatever they like on blank > areas of the map. But that doesn't change the math, and so they're still > irrational. > > There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on with your lives, > knowing that you alone are in charge. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:04:09 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:04:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> References: <1095064694_83409@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <7a32170504091323046330225d@mail.gmail.com> John, first off I'm sorry to hear about your experience. You have my sympathy. I hope you make a fast and full recovery. As to self defense methodology, I would highly recommend Krav Maga. It is a highly effective set of self-defense techniques (it is *not* a martial art). It's advantage over martial arts is that it goes straight to the chase with a minimum of fluff. In other words its not the kind of thing you have to practice your whole life before you can feel confident to defend yourself if need be. There are no fancy moves or strikes that have to be rehearsed over and over until they are performed to perfection. Instead Krav Maga techniques will train you to quickly and effectively disarm and repel a would-be attacker. Disparities in weight and size are fairly easily compensated for, and you can garner some proficiency in the techniques in a matter of hours, not months. There is a set of DVD's you can watch to learn the basics. But I would highly recommend that you take classes for at least a few weeks. Although you can learn basic technique from watching the video, that alone will do nothing to improve your reflexes. Your chances of success against an attacker will be greatly improved by quick action almost without thinking about it. In the classes given here in L.A. you are subjected to "real-world" situations such as being attacked from behind, in the dark, with a variety of armed and unarmed attacker methods. If you can't find any classes near you, or classes just won't fit into your schedule at the moment, you can pick up the DVD's here: http://kravmaga.com/proshop/Videos/Full_Set/full_setdvd.html Good luck to you. If you have any specific questions about Krav Maga instruction that you can't find answers to at the above web site, feel free to hit me off list. Take care Zero On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 01:38:14 -0700, starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the hospitality field) and today scoured the net > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be best for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a minimum of harm done if I have no other choice. > > My opponent was about 70 pounds heavier than me when it came to bulk/muscle mass, and I could tell had at least some > martial arts training. The whole experience was very terrifying for me to say the least, since I did not even see the > physical side of the assault coming. And now as I type this I feel the pain and soreness. > > I actually knew the person and thought they were a "friend." What I find so strange is the person who viciously > assaulted me is a very intelligent, educated, successful and respected member of the local community, but I realize > physically abusive people come from every socio-economic level. > > I would appreciate whatever pointers anyone might have for me. > > I feel such a mix of anger and shame right now, but I suppose that's normal. > > Thank you, > > John > www.venturist.org > www.creeksidepreserve.com > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:23:23 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:23:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a32170504091323233f8179e3@mail.gmail.com> It will happen sooner or later. When it does the "Transparent Society" http://www.davidbrin.com/tschp1.html will finally arrive. And I for one can't wait. What will happen to the U.S. legal system you ask? Probably not much. Of course if individuals don't have sufficient control over their recorders to be able to turn them off while they engage in nefarious activity, you will naturally see a sharp decrease in objectively observable crimes (rape, robbery, murder, etc.). But I wouldn't expect much impact on civil litigation. People will always find reason to sue each other, and lawyers will be there to help them. There will likely remain for quite some time litigatable issues of subjective intent, and interpretation of meanings of conversations. For instance in most contract lawsuits there is no dispute as to the language of the contract, because most litigated contracts are in writing. The litigated issues have to do with the interpretation of contract language and its application to a given set of facts. Everyone having there own copy of the a recording showing the details of a given transaction will most likely not prevent disagreement regarding the transaction and litigation to resolve those disagreements. Zero ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Freels Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 19:53:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives To: ExI chat list It seems the US military has revived the idea of logging everything a soldier sees and does in battle. I had wondered how long this would take. I would like one of these myself! http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,64911,00.html?tw=newsletter_topstories_html I wonder what would happen to the legal system if everyone had a solid copy of all of their own actions recorded. How would murder and other crimes be affected? WOuld it really be a violation of privacy if you had control over the information? Lots to think about here. Shouldn't we be able to get something similar to this in the next 5 years? From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 06:32:27 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 23:32:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 60 minutes' credibility In-Reply-To: <001801c49952$bc0c30a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040910154936.36042.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> <001801c49952$bc0c30a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <7a32170504091323322e049b41@mail.gmail.com> Check this one: September 14, 2004 -- CBS News and top anchor Dan Rather are digging in their heels ? and just maybe digging their own journalistic graves ? by continuing to stand by their deeply suspect memos about President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard. Indeed, with each passing day, the evidence is becoming ever-more overwhelming that the documents are fake. http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/editorial/30293.htm Zero On Sun, 12 Sep 2004 22:29:58 -0700, Spike wrote: > I hafta wonder if Dan "the Forger" Rather is about to hang > himself with this kinda stuff going around on the web: > > 1972 Email Casts Doubt on Bush Guard Service > > CBS reporter Dan Rather today released the text of a recently discovered > email from then-Lt. George W. Bush's Air National Guard commanding > officer which casts more doubt upon the military service of the man who > would become the 43rd President of the United States. > > The revelation of the email comes just hours after questions were raised > about the authenticity of typewritten memos from the same officer, shown > yesterday by Mr. Rather on 60 Minutes. > > According to the previously unseen email message sent in May 1972 by > squadron commander Jerry Killian, Lt. Bush phoned Col. Killian because > "his internet connection was on the fritz and he couldn't IM me." > > Lt. Bush apparently wanted to talk about "how he can get out of coming > to drill from now through November." > > According to Col. Killian's email, the young Bush wanted to go to > Alabama to work as webmaster for a Republican candidate's website. > > Mr. Rather said the authenticity of the 32-year-old email has been > confirmed by several Nigerian officials who specialize in electronic > funds transfer by email. > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 14 07:13:40 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:13:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Turning Off Bad Genes Message-ID: <002d01c49a2a$5ccd0320$6600a8c0@brainiac> "But if it works, RNAi could potentially yield a cornucopia of other drugs designed to silence errant, disease-causing genes in the body, or disarm an invading virus by knocking out its genes. A second company, Sirna Therapeutics of Boulder, Colo., applied to the F.D.A. last week for permission to begin a trial of its own drug for macular degeneration.": http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/business/14gene.html?hp (I search for interesting stocks from time to time - and RNAI is a new one to me ... will be on my watch list.) Olga From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 14 07:26:23 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:26:23 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] SING: recording our lives References: <7a32170504091323233f8179e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003501c49a2c$23ac27e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Zero Powers" > It will happen sooner or later. When it does the "Transparent > Society" http://www.davidbrin.com/tschp1.html will finally arrive. > And I for one can't wait. > > What will happen to the U.S. legal system you ask? http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002034793_olson14m.html ;)) Olga From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 07:41:53 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:41:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <948b11e0409140041382a9f21@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it > as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being > rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a > week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some > comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient > rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. > Very well put. It leaves open two questions: a) What is and is not rationality? b) Given (a) is rationality so all encompassing or fundamental to all one's values that full commitment to it, epecially to the point of excluding what is not accesible to it, is the only sane choice? > Once upon a time the stars were mysteries, life was mysterious, matter was > mysterious, unexplained and unexplainable. But, once again, a blank spot > on the map is not a blank spot on the territory. There are mysterious > questions, never mysterious answers. People have no sense of history, no > sense of how reasonable past errors seemed *at the time*. If only I had > *personally* postulated astrological mysteries and discovered Newtonian > gravitation, *personally* postulated alchemical mysteries and discovered > chemistry, *personally* postulated vitalistic mysteries and discovered > biology. I would have invented a mysterious explanation for consciousness > and thought to myself, "No way am I falling for that again." People don't > assign history the same weight as personal experience, even if the universe > repeats the lesson over and over and over. > Good point. While I don't believe in a "God of the gaps" or in "God" at all by most people's lights, I do believe that there are aspects of human nature that require a sort of vision-logic that is not confined to what most people mean by "rationality". It feels strange to write that in response to something you, of all people, wrote. You obviously have tons of "vision" and far greater dedication to that vision that most religious folks can claim. Perhaps you have bridged the gap to a fully rational vision-logic. But it does not seem like this is so yet. > There are human stories told around a campfire, full of mighty heroes and > passionate gods and comforting resolutions; and there are the stories the > universe whispers to itself, strange dreams of physics equations, an > unbelievable style of storytelling in which things are explained by maths > instead of morals. It seems to me that the human style of storytelling - > you know, the one that just plain doesn't work - is what people call > "religious" or "spiritual". To dismiss it with "just plain doesn't work" is incorrect. It actually does work quite well or it would not have survived and even thrived for so long. It works well for binding groups together, for raising one's eyes above the daily grind, for refining yearning for and views of transcendence and much more. It has done these things for thousands of years. Yeah, granted that it has done them with a lot of krap in the mix. But it is not true it is all just worthless blather. >It takes a mature rationalist indeed to live > in the universe the Way it really is, one coherent unified mathematical > process with not a single shred of human-style storytelling > ("spirituality") in it. It may seem harsh - ungracious - for rationalists > to demand so complete a triumph, to leave not a single shred of consolation > for spiritualists; but the truth is not a compromise between political > factions. This is the way the universe has always been. The rationalists > did not invent this answer, only prove themselves mature enough to accept it. > As the universe includes human beings there obviously is more than a shred of spirituality (and other human activity) in it. It may seem ridiculous to you but imho you are one of the most profoundly moral and even spiritual people I have ever met. We need to work with what humans are. Saying only those humans who totally chuck aspects of their humanity that the vast majority consider immensely important are "rational" and thus honest and mature is saying that most people may be dismissed as deluded fools. Few will chose to follow into the rational desert you portray. If we are to have a hope of uplifting ourselves then shouldn't we start with the fullness of what humanity is? Shouldn't we use all the tools and aspects of humans that can be at all useful? Why start by throwing out much of what people consider of great value? > Bayes' Theorem plus a Kolmogorov distribution over prior probabilities is > complete. It assigns a probability to everything. The probability it > assigns to complex unsupported hypotheses is extremely low. Many people do not share your faith in Bayes as the determiner of all things or even as the lynchpin of rationality. > Religion and the religious are irrational, in the sense that they assign > higher confidence to certain propositions than probability theory calls > for. Ignorance of the math is, in some ways, an excuse - it means that at > least some spiritual people have not knowingly turned against the truth, > they honestly believe that it's okay to draw in whatever they like on blank > areas of the map. This has very little to do with spirituality. But that doesn't change the math, and so they're still > irrational. > > There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on with your lives, > knowing that you alone are in charge. > Yes. We are in charge of what we believe and what we encourage others to believe. We are responsible for it. It is not a quick thought what the effects of one's beliefs are on self and others. It is not obvious that rationality as you define it would lead humanity to the future it actually wants. Rationality is vastly important. But it will not give us the vision or the compassion or the wisdom we need to actually form and accomplish our dreams. This does not mean that rationality is to be offended. It merely means there are aspects of human life that are not directly accessible to rationality. - samantha From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 07:49:42 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:49:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Step Toward Universal Computing In-Reply-To: <7a3217050409132151516a6e14@mail.gmail.com> References: <4179196.1095070649796.JavaMail.Administrator@dino> <7a3217050409132151516a6e14@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04091400498404835@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, it is cool. But I have been hearing of compaines who worked on this and claimed in their releases to have nailed it in large part since at least the late 80s. So what is so different this time around? -s On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 21:51:17 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Now that's pretty darn cool! > > Zero > > ************************* > Step Toward Universal Computing > Wired News Sep. 13, 2004 > ************************* > Transitive Corp. of Los Gatos, > California claims to have cracked > one of most elusive goals of the > software industry: a near-universal > emulator (called QuickTransit) that > allows software developed for one > platform to run on any other, with > almost no performance... > http://www.kurzweilai.net/email/newsRedirect.html?newsID=3717&m=7817 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From starman2100 at cableone.net Tue Sep 14 07:41:45 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:41:45 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: self-defense concerns Message-ID: <1095147705_13255@mail.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 07:59:30 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 00:59:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040914075930.21073.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > There is no God. Thank you for asking. Now get on > with your lives, > knowing that you alone are in charge. > Allow me to play the Devil's advocate, Eliezer. Actually I will be representing God too and many of the other denizens of the spirit world so consider this a class action suit. So if you could, as judge and jury of the court of Bayes, indulge me by solving a socratic homework problem indirectly pertaining to the issue at hand. The problem is simple lets say you and I decide to play a very simple game. the rules are: 1. You and I stake a dollar each on the outcome of the draw of a single card from a deck (normal 52 cards no jokers). 2. I get to draw the card and if it comes up an ace of spades, I win and I get your dollar. 3. If it come up as any other card, you get a dollar. 4. We only play it once- that is to say there is only one draw from the deck. Next, I send you a picture in an email showing a deck of cards and next to it is the ace of spades. I demand my dollar. Your problem is this: Use Bayes Theorem to determine: a. The probability that I cheated. b. The probabilities that an ace of spades would show up if I was cheating. c. The probability of an ace of spades if I was not. d. Should you send me your dollar. Please exposite this by showing the math. Listing your probabilities and/or distributions including posteriors, assumed priors- even if they are assumed as they would have to be since you don't know me well enough to know how honest I am. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 08:31:33 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 01:31:33 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] self-defense concerns In-Reply-To: <124020-22004911314495692@M2W054.mail2web.com> References: <124020-22004911314495692@M2W054.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <948b11e04091401315924065f@mail.gmail.com> I very much agree with Natasha. The wrongness of the initiation of force against another is a cornerstone of civilized existence. It must be upheld by a refusal to ignore anyone stepping across that line. Your assailant must get a much needed reality check. I would advise, however, taking precautions if your assailant might be inclined to take the consequences out on you. Be safe. Do not give him the opportunity to harm you. If necessary do own a weapon. Most assailants can be stopped by knowledge of the ability and willingness of their victim to defend themselves. But also remember that patterns of abuse tend to escalated if not checked. Your only safe course is to stop this person from harming you again. -samantha On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:49:56 -0400, natashavita at earthlink.net wrote: > John wrote: > > "I was just recently physically assaulted in my workplace (I work in the > hospitality field) and today scoured the net > for a good self-defense training DVD. I was not sure what would be best > for my needs, since I do not want to kill or > maim an out of control person, but simply repel/put them down with a > minimum of harm done if I have no other choice." > > John, my suggestion is to press charges, now. > > Please do not be intimidated. There are many types of aggressor/victim > relationships and they are not all between a man assaulting his partner or > a woman assaulting her partner, or parents assaulting their children. If > you play victim in this "relationship" then you may fall into the category > of a person allowing this to happen because you are shamed, scared or > eventually in denial that it ever happened. > > No one has the right to physically attack you and you do have a > responsibility to yourself to protect yourself from any further attacks. > > Natasha > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Tue Sep 14 13:03:10 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 15:03:10 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen Message-ID: <6DC769CE-064E-11D9-B7A6-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Just accepted for publication... A Giant Planet Candidate near a Young Brown Dwarf Direct VLT/NACO Observations using IR Wavefront Sensing Chauvin, A.-M. Lagrange, C. Dumas, B. Zuckerman, D. Mouillet, I. Song, J.-L. Beuzit, and P. Lowrance Abstract. We present deep VLT/NACO infrared imaging and spectroscopic observations of the brown dwarf 2MASSWJ1207334-393254, obtained during our on-going adaptive optics survey of southern young, nearby associations. This 25 M_Jup brown dwarf, located approx. 70 pc from Earth, has been recently identified as a member of the TW Hydrae Association (age approx. 8 Myr). Using adaptive optics infrared wavefront sensing to acquire sharp images of its circumstellar environment, we discovered a very faint and very red object at a close separation of approx. 780 mas (approx. 55 AU). Photometry in the H, Ks and L' bands and upper limit in J-band are compatible with a spectral type L5-L9.5. Near-infrared spectroscopy is consistent with this spectral type estimate. Different evolutionary models predict an object within the planetary regime with a mass of M = 5 +/- 2 M_Jup and an effective temperature of T_eff = 1250 +/- 200 K. Keywords. 2MASSWJ1207334 393254 ? brown dwarf ? giant planet ? adaptive optics imaging and spectroscopy full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 13:42:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <3fec89404091318304d2e8406@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040914134221.38947.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Paul Bridger wrote: > On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against > >the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? > > I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet against > the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. Never counted cards, eh? > > Chris Hibbert: > >But here, he seems to be saying that there is no > >rationale for times when you are doing things other than thinking > >about and acting on the truth. > >The part that seems hyperbolic is that this eschews time for > relaxation, time for fiction, time for art. > > It's rational to relax when you need it. Just don't expect any work > to be completed while you read fiction. That isn't the issue at hand. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 13:54:17 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:54:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien References: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: Last I heard, there was some overlapping of signal segments. This way, if a particular segment is distributed but doesn;t come back for some reason, it still gets processed. This was my understanding three years ago. Not sure if it is still the case. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 12:25 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien > > > From: Zero Powers [mailto:zero.powers at gmail.com] > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien > > > > > Zero, this article is revving my skeptic-engine... spike > > > > > Spike, looks like your skeptic engine is humming along just fine. No > > need for any tune-ups there... > > > > BBC News Online is reporting that a radio signal from deep space is > > not from aliens, according to astronomers... > > > A few weeks ago I got a chance to meet and speak with > Dr. Jill Tarter of the SETI Institute. When or if she > announces a radio signal that appears to be from ET > technology, that news story will have my full and > undivided. Just like Jody Foster did the whole time > I was viewing Contact. {8-] > > I need to look into these other guys, the SETI at homers. > They probably have made important contributions, but > I need to study their data input, see where and > how much they are getting, assure myself that they > are making optimal use of all those idle computer > cycles they are having donated. I might pull one > of my machines off of GIMPS and turn SETI at home back on. > > Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they > careful to never give out the same segment multiple > times? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 13:53:25 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040914135325.93112.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they > careful to never give out the same segment multiple > times? Actually, they do, and for a good reason: so one person can't spoof a signal. The anomalous signal has been reported by multiple S at H users who have processed the same segment. What they are careful to do is not give the same segment to the same person or group twice. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Sep 14 13:56:27 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:56:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Turning Off Bad Genes References: <002d01c49a2a$5ccd0320$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: I would be happy with something that could keep my teeth from decaying. (besides regular brushing and dental care) I have the rapid tooth decay gene(s). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olga Bourlin" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2004 2:13 AM Subject: [extropy-chat] Turning Off Bad Genes > "But if it works, RNAi could potentially yield a cornucopia of other drugs > designed to silence errant, disease-causing genes in the body, or disarm an > invading virus by knocking out its genes. A second company, Sirna > Therapeutics of Boulder, Colo., applied to the F.D.A. last week for > permission to begin a trial of its own drug for macular degeneration.": > > http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/14/business/14gene.html?hp > > (I search for interesting stocks from time to time - and RNAI is a new one > to me ... will be on my watch list.) > > Olga > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Tue Sep 14 23:13:49 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 00:13:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040914134221.38947.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040914134221.38947.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41477B2D.5040307@optusnet.com.au> Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Paul Bridger wrote: > > >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey >> wrote: >> >>>If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against >>>the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? >> >>I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet against >>the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. > > > Never counted cards, eh? Wouldn't counting cards (and estimating probabilities) be a Bayesian thing to do ? :) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 14 14:30:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 07:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <41477B2D.5040307@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20040914143032.61987.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- David wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Paul Bridger wrote: > > > > > >>On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 17:43:54 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey > >> wrote: > >> > >>>If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet > against > >>>the house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? > >> > >>I agree that it's great that there are (other) people who bet > against > >>the house, but I don't really think losing is fun. > > > > > > Never counted cards, eh? > > Wouldn't counting cards (and estimating probabilities) be a Bayesian > thing to do ? :) It is Bayesian, but it's still betting against the house, and against the odds. But go ask the MIT card counting ring if gambling is any fun anymore. On a side note, isn't a dislike of risk a sign of aspergers? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 15:40:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? G. On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 16:05:07 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it > as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being > rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a > week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some > comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient > rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Tue Sep 14 15:58:37 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 08:58:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE010930AD@amazemail2.amazeent.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > Not at all. I am saying that whatever your pursuit or enjoyment, you > should never knowingly accept a falsehood, nor assign a confidence > too high for the evidence, nor use rules other than rationality in > deciding what to believe. It is okay to read science fiction novels, > so long as you assign accurate probabilities to all the events > described therein. Mike Lorrey: > If everybody followed eliezers rules, nobody would ever bet against the > house... what a FUN world THAT would be, eh? Not necessarily true. People have imperfect information and they asess the probability of events happening differently. The classic example of this is betting on an event you know will be thrown. Additionally betting against long odds might be necessary to prepare the odds for a situation later, for example, taking a fall yourself in order to manipulate the opinions of other bettors. From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Sep 14 17:30:20 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:30:20 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (9/14/04 8:54) Kevin Freels wrote: >Last I heard, there was some overlapping of signal segments. This way, if a >particular segment is distributed but doesn;t come back for some reason, it >still gets processed. This was my understanding three years ago. Not sure if >it is still the case. > AFAIK, this is still the case. Also, blocks with "candidates" (both spikes and triplets) are queued for special attention - more runs through the mill, so to speak. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 14 18:05:07 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:05:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] FW: [NEWS] The New York Times > Technology > Let a Thousand Ideas Flower: China Is a New Hotbed of Research Message-ID: The New York Times > Technology > Let a Thousand Ideas Flower: China Is a New Hotbed of Research: "Microsoft is not the only multinational company to use China as a base for research and development. In recent years hundreds of them have set up laboratories here, and Chinese officials claim the number is growing by 200 a year. The labs vary in size and ambition, but as they multiply and expand they may help China grow from mostly a user and copier of advanced technologies developed elsewhere into a powerful incubator of its own, industry executives and experts say. And the shift may eventually reshape applied research, jobs and policies in the United States and other developed countries. 'The Chinese are going to become sources of innovation,'' said Denis Fred Simon, a specialist in Chinese science and technology who is provost of the new graduate-level Levin Institute of the State University of New York. 'They will find themselves enmeshed in global R.& D. more and more.''" http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/13/technology/13china.html?ex=1252900800&en=ead8646c19768d24&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From eliasen at mindspring.com Tue Sep 14 20:22:14 2004 From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 14:22:14 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] SETI: First radio signal from alien In-Reply-To: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <002301c49a1b$4318f4c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <414752F6.3000106@mindspring.com> Spike wrote: > Anyone here up to speed on SETI at home? Are they > careful to never give out the same segment multiple > times? From their FAQ: http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/faq.html#q3.10 Q: Is it likely that so many people sign up that you won't always have enough Arecibo data to feed all the clients? If so, how will this be handled? A: It's possible. Up to a point, we will handle it by sending the same data to more than one user. Beyond that, if we can afford it, we will set up another data recorder at Arecibo and record a wider frequency range (our current system records only 2.5 MHz out of SERENDIP's 100 MHz bandwidth). --- If you carefully read their science results, they now usually send out all results for testing at least twice, as they have more computational capacity at hand than they do raw data. -- Alan Eliasen | "You cannot reason a person out of a eliasen at mindspring.com | position he did not reason himself http://futureboy.homeip.net/ | into in the first place." | --Jonathan Swift From david at ideoware.com Tue Sep 14 21:46:09 2004 From: david at ideoware.com (David McFadzean) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:46:09 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fw: Keith could use some help. Message-ID: <061601c49aa4$3f33f420$6401a8c0@trogdor> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Henson" > Actually Keith is *desperate* for help. > > I got turned down on my refugee claim after an incredible 10 months after > the last hearing. But after that my appeal to the Canadian federal courts > was almost instantly rejected. > > So at this point I am a "failed refugee." The only thing that can keep me > from being deported to the US on short notice is an appeal to the Minister > of Citizenship and Immigration. Her office gets 15,000 letters a week so > it takes a well known case to reach the level where it gets attention. > > Now you say, being deported to the US isn't so bad. Well in my case it > is. Here is testimony obtained about a week ago. It is from May 13, > 2004. A Toronto cop is being quizzed by my lawyer about events when I came > here three and a half years ago: > > Q. I don't think you need to go into that. I > think we're all aware of that. Did Mr. Schwarz did you ask > him if he was going to take any steps to extradite Mr. Henson? > A. Yes, I did. > Q. And he responded that he wasn't? > A. He said the State of California would not > extradite Mr. Henson from Canada, however, if Mr. Henson was > found to be in another State, such as New York, then they would > probably proceed with extradition requests from New York. > Q. I see. But he made it clear to you that they > have no intention to try to extradite him from Canada? > A. It came down to a matter of cost, dollars and > cents. > Q. He wasn't candid enough to admit that they > couldn't extradite him from Canada? > A. No. He just said that the State of > California would not extradite Mr. Henson from Canada. > Q. I see. > A. . because of the cost. > > Of course scientology would be footing the bill. Someone who has been > sentenced does not have to be extradited, they can just be kidnapped by > bounty hunters. And cult agents have made fairly clear public threats that > I would not survive jail. > > Considering the depth the cult has corrupted the government of Riverside > County, I can hardly look for justice there. I am about to release the > evidence that there is a 99.6% chance scientology "ran in" a jury pool of > their own choice. > > Ok, if you want to help what to do? > > If you live in Canada, write your MP asking them to pass the email on to > the Minister, Judy Sgro with a cc to my MP and if you will, a blind cc to > me or if you want, post it. You can get your MP from your postal code by > going here: > > http://canadaonline.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=canadaonline&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parl.gc.ca%2Finformation%2Fabout%2Fpeople%2Fhouse%2FPostalCode.asp%3Flang%3DE%26amp%3Bsource%3Dsm > > My MP is Lloyd St Amand, Constituency Address > > 98 Paris Road, Unit 3 > Brantford, Ontario > N3R 1H9 > > E-Mail: stamal at parl.gc.ca > > He says that email and postal mail are given the same attention. > > If you are outside of Canada, supporting email to stamal at parl.gc.ca asking > him to help me stay in Canada would be the way to go. > > If you know me personally or by reputation, put that in your email or > letter. Half a page to a page is more likely to get read, but the length > is up to you. > > Thumbnail background here. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Henson > > and in too much detail here: > > http://www.operatingthetan.com/civil-rights-letter-redacted.htm > > Much appreciate your efforts. > > Keith Henson > > PS and if anyone wants to read the whole transcript, ask and I will try to > get it up on a web site. > From jef at jefallbright.net Tue Sep 14 23:32:03 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 16:32:03 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41477F73.1020005@jefallbright.net> Eliezer said: >Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to learn it >as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit to being >rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day seven days a >week, with not a single area of life reserved for relaxing with some >comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that darned inconvenient >rationality business can't stomp all over the things you want to believe. > > Eliezer - I admire your dedication to this philosophy, and agree with its truth. I recognize the terrain, having lived there for a large part of my life. However, within a larger context, it is limiting to place so much emphasis on absolute rationality. In the larger world of human relations (no, it's not a special case) of which we are each a part, we deal with others who (1) don't share our emphasis on rationality, and (2) don't share the same knowledge base. And, if we look carefully, we see that even the most devout Bayesian faces a constant struggle with those parts of self that are not under conscious analysis and control. An optimum strategy for living an effective life (especially involving other people), require the application of (bounded) rationality to those areas where it works, and use of a "toolbox" of heuristics and specialized skills, but essentially going with the flow, for dealing effectively with other areas. A rational approach to life includes both "rational" in the mathematical sense, and "rational" in the pragmatic sense. We INTJs have a hard time accepting this -- it's messy, but it works. You'd be surprised. And of course at an even higher level it's completely rational in the mathematical sense, but we don't get to see that in its wholeness and that's not where we live. - Jef From namacdon at ole.augie.edu Tue Sep 14 23:51:08 2004 From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 18:51:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality Message-ID: <1095205868.87920b40namacdon@ole.augie.edu> >A rational approach to life includes both "rational" >in the mathematical >sense, and "rational" in the pragmatic sense. We >INTJs have a hard time >accepting this -- it's messy, but it works. You'd be >surprised. Precisely because it's the domain of us INTP's- we're the ones who typically end up trying to figure out how to integrate man's irrationality- and you end up cleaning up after us. :) -Nicq MacDonald From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 03:54:26 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 20:54:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> <470a3c5204091408402caae564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking about. Zero On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it > into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform > better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into > an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? > G. From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 15 05:49:30 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:49:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915054930.10354.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Nietzsche wrote, "there are rational reasons for abandoning rationalism". If memory serves, the full quote was actually "There are rational reasons for abandoning rationalism altogether", but shall we amend his dictum to write that sometimes irrationalism can be expedient, even anodyne? The first of two personal examples is: in the past I would respond to those acquaintances with whom I am barely on speaking terms by being direct; this has very recently become very wearying, so I speak irrationally. With a wild-eyed look I told an anti-abortionist we need more wars to kill off the surfeit of population. He fled I am accosted constantly by religious proselytizers and have recently discovered that it is impossible to have a sincerely rational discussion with them without becoming extremely irritated. A definition of rationality in this context would be responding to a religionist in a thoroughly forthright manner, but as their demeanor almost invariably displays ulterior motives I as of last week have started to harbor no guilt in speaking to them in a slightly dissembling, irrational manner yet without becoming excessively aggressive. Last week a proselytizer said she wanted to ask me a question; in the past I would have listened to the question without interruption, without any guile, but fatigue of the same question being asked for the several hundredth time prompted me to quickly interject, "only if you let me ask YOU a question". She reluctantly agreed and launched the familiar, expected question, "who do you think Jesus is?" I replied he was a man who lived two thousand years ago, she then wanted to know if I thought he was the son of God. In the past I would have replied 'perhaps' or 'I don't know', but rather than become irritated or terminate the conversation, I decided on a new tack, asking her "how can God have a son?". Her predictable answer was "God can do anything", so I retorted by asking "how can 'God-dom be passed to a new generation?". She became flustered, replying, "you asked your question!", then turned on her heel, ending the discussion. The completely honest response to her query would have been agnostic, but by being cagey and slightly irrational the conversation was brought to a satisfactory conclusion, perhaps for her as well, since she wasted no more than one or two minutes of her time. --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into > an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed > better? Are you > talking about some extreme statistical probability > endeavor (i.e. > picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where > your behavior > actually has some reasonably predictable probability > of effecting the > desired result (i.e. conducting a business or > creative transaction)? > > I'm really interested in getting some idea of what > you're talking about. > > Zero ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 06:00:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:00:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Genetically modified bacterium as remedy for intestinal diseases Message-ID: Genetically modified bacterium as remedy for intestinal diseases: "Researchers from the Flanders Interuniversity Institute for Biotechnology (VIB) at Ghent University are joining the fight against chronic intestinal disease with a genetically modified bacterium (Lactococcus lactis). The modified bacterium is able to produce medication right in the intestine. This is often the crux of the problem: a number of medicines are presumed to be effective, but until now it has been impossible to get them into the intestine in a simple manner. The researchers have shown that the genetically modified bacterium is able to manufacture the potential medicine, Trefoil Factors, in the intestines of diseased mice" http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-09/vfii-gmb091404.php --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 06:14:29 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:14:29 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have many examples. Often you know that you do X better (X = sport, business meeting, sex, ...) if you work yourself in a dreamy state of mind where it is the only thing that matter so you give it total concentration (they call this "flow" these days). But the belief that winning the dart game at the pub is the most important thing in the world is irrational, isn't it? (it is not so terribly important and there are probably other things that you should be using your time for). Sometimes when you want to achieve an objective you may choose to work yourself in a positive state of mind where you firmly believe that you will achieve it. This belief is irrational when you know that probabilities are against you. But believing that you will win gives you some kind of positive energy that (as far as the outcome does depend on how you play) actually increases your chances. I think we can make examples in artistic creation (I am not the right person to do it as I have no artistic talent). Sometimes you are just happier if you let yourself believe, for a little while, things that you know are probably not correct. Being happier energizes you and makes you perform better in other things. In summary I think rationality is one of many behaviour modes that we can choose, probably the best one most of the times but not the only one. The best thing to do would be choosing (rationally) whether you want to think and act rationally or not in a given situation (using for example what Greg Egan calls "outlooks"). G. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Zero Powers Sent: mi?rcoles, 15 de septiembre de 2004 5:54 To: Giu1i0 Pri5c0; ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking about. Zero On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it > into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform > better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into > an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? > G. _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 15 06:37:00 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 23:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915063700.26000.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Often you know that you do X > better (X = sport, > business meeting, sex, ...) if you work yourself in > a dreamy state of mind > where it is the only thing that matter so you give > it total concentration > (they call this "flow" these days). But the belief > that winning the dart > game at the pub is the most important thing in the > world is irrational, > isn't it? I have been able to work myself into that state of mind without the irrationality. Believing that you will win and that this is important has a good chance of inducing the state - although, taken literally, it's also an excuse to be lazy. (Why put out extra effort if success is in the bag anyway? Even if it is important...) A better way might be to simply focus completely on the task, without any judgement as to how important it is. (Aside from all other considerations, it is what you're doing *at that moment*; more long term important considerations can wait.) This especially includes trying to dream up ways that you could win: visualizing victory, but not only the actual victory itself - visualizing the *path to* victory as well. Once you know a way you could win, if you follow that path, you could win. (Of course, you should also try to see ways the path could go wrong, how you could tell that's happening or will soon, and what you can do to correct it.) > Sometimes you are just happier if you let yourself > believe, for a little > while, things that you know are probably not > correct. Being happier > energizes you and makes you perform better in other > things. Being happier can be achieved in a number of ways. You can even divorce it from (most) rationality: "The world's going to end in five minutes? Great! Why am I so happy? Why not be happy?" Granted, this does not always work, and there are evolutionary reasons for sorrow and the like. But sometime when one has no extreme emotion either way, one can try meditating and making oneself happy - not for any reason, but just being happy in and of itself. (Smiling - again, for no reason beyond just plain becoming happy - can act as a physical aid to this. So can certain drugs, though I would not reccomend that path: medical problems aside, the point is to be able to become happy at any time, and one will not have instant access to drugs at all times. The main driver for this happiness, though, must be one's own mind, or sheer force of will.) Once one is sufficiently comfortable with the results of this, one can then call upon this forced yet genuine happiness in times of need - to battle grief, or to psych oneself up for tasks. It is a technique and a tool, nothing more. But we are human, so we might as well make the best use of everything that means - including the ability to be irrationally happy. From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 06:50:10 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:50:10 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Call for Papers - TECHNOLOGY AND THE CHANGING FACE OF HUMANITY Message-ID: Call for Papers May 29 - 30, 2005 University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario CANADIAN JACQUES MARITAIN ASSOCIATION Conference On: TECHNOLOGY AND THE CHANGING FACE OF HUMANITY As technology rapidly changes, so too must its relationship to humans. Of course the very idea of what it means to be human has changed throughout history. The objective of this conference is to explore issues such as what it means to be human as well as how technology influences our understanding of ourselves as persons. The ways in which humans understand themselves have had enormous influence on social structures, political, educational and so on. This conference will also consider the impact of technology on human rights. As new technologies appear, such as biometrics, it remains unclear as to their effects on the concept, for instance, of privacy rights. Many hold that new technologies enhance our security, but it remains unclear as to how this will affect our thinking about individuals and their rights? Finally, given that new technologies are ever more invasive in terms of the body, one of the great philosophical problems again rears its head: what does it mean to be human? Some suggested topics for papers: ? Technology, genetic engineering and human rights ? Technology and the changing views on privacy ? Technology and the individual ? Historical views on the relationship between technē and the nature of the person ? Transhumanism, Posthumanism and Humanism Other relevant suggestions are welcome. Please send a 250 word abstract, by October 15, 2004, to either of the following addresses: Professor Chantal Beauvais Professor Richard Feist St Paul University St Paul University Ottawa, Ontario Ottawa, Ontario cbeauvais at ustpaul.ca rfeist at ustpaul.ca The University of Ottawa Press is interested in publishing the results of this conference. 29 - 30 mai, 2005 University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario ASSOCIATION CANADIENNE JACQUES MARITAIN Conf?rence portant sur: La technologie et le paradigme ?mergent de l?humain Les innovations technologiques incessantes propres ? notre ?poque modifient le rapport que l'humain entretient vis-?-vis la technologie. On sait par ailleurs que la mani?re dont l'?tre humain se comprend n'a cess? d'?voluer au cours des ?ges. L'objectif de cette conf?rence est d'explorer l'impact mutuel de ces ?volutions. La mani?re dont nous nous comprenons en tant qu=?tre humains influe consid?rablement sur nos structures sociales, politiques, p?dagogiques, etc. Cette conf?rence se penchera ?galement sur l'impact qu'exerce la technologie sur les droits humains. Il n'est pas facile de pr?ciser les effets des technologies nouvelles, comme la biom?trie, dans des domaines comme le droit ? la vie priv?e. Si certains estiment que les technologies ?mergentes augmentent notre s?curit?, il est l?gitime de s'interroger ? propos de leur impact sur notre mani?re de penser les individus et leurs droits. Enfin, le fait que les nouvelles technologies sont de plus en plus int?gr?es ? la corpor?it? fait ?merger ? nouveaux frais cette formidable interrogation philosophique : que signifie ?tre humain ? Quelques suggestions de th?mes qui pourraient ?tre abord?s: ? La technologie, l?ing?nierie g?n?tique et les droits humains ? La technologie et les conceptions diff?rentes de la vie priv?e ? La technologie et l?individu ? Histoire de la relation entre la techn? et la nature de la personne ? Le transhumanisme, le posthumanisme et l?humanisme D?autres suggestions pertinentes seront accept?es. Veuillez envoyer votre r?sum? de communications (250 mots) avant le 15 octobre ? l?une des personnes suivantes : Professeure Chantal Beauvais Professeur Richard Feist Universit? Saint-Paul Universit? Saint-Paul Ottawa, Ontario Ottawa, Ontario cbeauvais at ustpaul.ca rfeist at ustpaul.ca Les Presses de l?Universit? d?Ottawa ont manifest? leur intention de publier les articles ?manant de cette conf?rence. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.747 / Virus Database: 499 - Release Date: 01/09/2004 From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 15 06:59:14 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 01:59:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Call for Papers - TECHNOLOGY AND THE CHANGING FACE OF HUMANITY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040915015454.01a37bd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >Call for Papers > >May 29 - 30, 2005 >University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario >CANADIAN JACQUES MARITAIN ASSOCIATION This sounds pretty much equivalent to the ST. THOMAS AQUINAS ASSOCIATION, right? Jacques Maritain was a mid-20th century Catholic Thomist. Here's their HQ: Headquarters: The headquarters of the Association is the Dominican College of Philosophy and Theology, 96 Empress Ave., Ottawa, Canada. That's not a reason not to speak with them, but it could be cause for caution. Damien Broderick From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 15 06:58:08 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:58:08 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > >I don't think my identity is a matter of taste, its a matter of > >fact. You as an other may present to me as a pattern but I > >don't present to myself as a pattern. > > > > > ### There are many categories of objects, whose identity is > commonly interpreted in different ways: e.g. sculptures are > treated as unique objects, but art prints can be produced in > large series. Thus, for the art connoisseur, the copy of a famous > sculpture is only a copy, but every print from the original artist's > print series is an original. The identity of a bank account is > defined by the routing and account numbers, not the physical > location of the stored data. Thus, the concept of "identity" is > in fact a whole slew of related but distinct concepts, with > different properties and referents. I've no problem with this but it doesn't seem relevant here. As Slawomir Paliwoda says in his excellent post on Personal Identity, "personal identity depends on a mind powered by the brain which is a physical object, and like all other objects, it can and should be subject to scientific investigation." And .... "once we agree that, in science, there's only one correct explanation for something at the exclusion of other theories, we can say that there can only be one explanation/description of personal identity that is true and all other theories are false." > I accept that your (Brett Paatch's) identity is what you say, since > this is what is produced by the processes in your brain (and my > meta-rule for such definitions is that they are produced by the > brains in a self-referential manner) . It's a fact, albeit a fact > pertaining only to Brett Paatsch. Now, my own, Rafal's identity > is defined differently. It is also a fact. Although the definitions > are different, they are not contradictory - they apply to different > objects, just like the varied definitions of an "original" in the art > world. Even though your definition of self is different from mine >(not even analogous), I do not think you are mistaken - merely > different. Do you see the point? Yes, I understand what your saying, but I think that you have gone off on a tangent. You are taking us away from a discussion on cryonics and of the obstacles cryonics would inevitably have to overcome to be of interest to people like you and I. That is people that currently have our sense of self located in our brains. > I don't think you are mistaken, not mistaken about yourself, > but you are mistaken where you believe me to be mistaken > about myself. I think you missed my point. You are currently located in your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to be of interest to either of us. > In other words, you are a universalist, believing that a > single definition of self (your own) is the only correct one > ("all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense > of self....."), while I am a pluralist, letting everyone decide > where their own (and only their own) identities lie. You've split my sentence in the middle when you quote me above. I'd said "all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain". That is not me defining a self concept. That is me pointing out that whatever our self concepts are they are *located* if we are homo sapiens in our brain structure. True and scientific statements can be made about "all members of the species homo sapiens..." which picks up both you and I. > You can conceive of others being different in their thinking > from you, and yet not mistaken, can't you? I find it to be a > useful ability. Of course. But they can *also* be different AND mistaken. > ---------------------------------------- > > >But you ITs do postulate that you can exist as disembodied > >information don't you? > > > ### What do you mean by "disembodied"? . > If you mean "functioning without any material substrate", then no, > of course not. Ok. So you think you would cease to exist as "you" while you exist only as a dataset of information for building you at a later date? Sort of cake - recipe -cake. While your a recipe your not a cake. > --------------------------- > > > > >>The IT belief is merely my *decision* to be satisfied with certain > >>physically feasible states of the world (future world states which > >>contain sentient structures largely identical to my present mental > >>setup, or structures derivable from this setup by volitional means), > >>and to value all such states equally, whether the future structures > >>appear by physical continuity with my current physical manifestation, > >>or by means of information transfer. The only difference between > >>you and me is that you are dissatisfied with states which contain > >>only the IT-derived structures - so it's a matter of attitude, not a > >>belief about material facts. > > > >I think the difference between us is that you think that you can in > >some sense survive as a sort of disembodied pattern despite the > >fact that all the cells that make you up are destroyed in order to > >determine that pattern. > > > > > > > ### Let me ask you something: do you think that it could be in principle > possible to analyze the material structure of your brain, and use the > information to make a brain which would behave in a way consistent > (similar enough) with you (e.g. identify pictures of your mother as "My > mother", or on seeing things you like say it likes them, etc.etc.)? It might be. In principle. It might be possible to create what Slawomir Paliwoda calls a perfect clone. I wouldn't think that perfect clone was me. And I don't think that clone could be created because I don't think the information to create it could be gathered to the requisite resolution without destroying the original me in the process. > If you think this is principally impossible, you would need to give > some physical explanation why. You mean that to satisfy or to convince you I'd need to :-) I might not need to for myself, particularly as I do agree with Slawomir Paliwoda, in that I do not think that I would be my perfect clone. This is not a nit picking point. People who believe that cryonics will work, or that molecular nanotech can work, often offer the failure to demonstrate that it can't to their knowledge as though that was relevant evidence. It isn't relevant evidence. What is missed out of that view is the understanding that people who do understand stuff are not always willing to spend the time trying to untangle the confused misunderstandings of those who don't understand stuff. This is particularly the case when people have complicated religous worldviews. Other people cannot justify the time to disprove those worldviews. There is not payoff for doing so. The people are not greatful for being disillusioned. They don't offer to pay for the service. They are more likely often to be resentful. > But, if you agree that a sufficiently > advanced technology could produce such a brain, then you > cannot say we disagree about facts. I can conceed the possibility, but I don't find it worth giving a lot of thought too, given that I realise I would not be my "perfect clone". And there are plenty of other 'facts' yet for us to disagree over. > Both you and me would agree that it is physically possible > to make copies of our brains that would act similarly to the > originals. The only difference is that I am sufficiently satisfied > with/enthusiastic about the prospect of having such a copy > in the future that I am willing to pay for cryonics (and yes, I > even value this situation equally with "survival" by > spatiotemporal continuity of cells), while a copy of you > would not elicit sufficient interest from you. I get what you are saying. But your right I wouldn't be sufficently satisified or enthusiastic. To me you are excepting that you will die (be materially decomposed and cease as a process) but are taking consolation that something just like you will be brought back to life (recomposed and started as a process via means which you conceed you do not in detail understand). Your diverting limited resources from solving problems or overcoming limits in your current you-process in order to endow life to some future you-process. Even though the current and future you-processes will not overlap in time. Correct? > ----------------------------------------- > > >>A question of value, not fact. > >> > >> > > > >That I exist as a biological being is a fact. That you do probably > >is also a fact. > > > > > ### Oh, sure, both of us have biological sides. Yet, we also have > IT-aspects, which I value, and you don't. Right. > ------------------------------ > > > > >Thats not a very scientific thing to say. How could you possible know > >that all academic detractors views come purely form ignorance? > > > > > ### I have not seen a single, coherent, scientific dismissal of > cryonics, despite reading on the subject for some time. All of them are > either silly one-liner quips ("you can't turn a hamburger into a cow"), > or pure expressions of faith ("it simply can't work"). Never any > numbers, any technical analysis. In fairness, why should anyone want to provide numbers or technical analysis? What is in it for them? To do that they'd have to take on a burden at some opportunity cost of time. If you had laid out numbers and technical analysis in detail yourself then they might do you the service of checking and perhaps correcting any errors etc. > Therefore, I am justified in treating > scientific detractors of cryonics as ignorant, since if they knew any > scientific arguments, they would have used them. That is a non sequitor. People generally need a reason to do work that your not paying then to do, they don't normally need a reason to avoid working for nothing. > ------------------------------------ > > >How could you even be sure that you know who all the academic > >detractors are? > > > ### I didn't use the universal quantifier. I only said "I can assure you > that the confidence of academic detractors of cryonics comes purely from > ignorance", which doesn't exclude the possibility that a few know what > they are talking about it, but so far failed to publish it. But, if you > know any single, published, peer-reviewed dismissal of cryonics, give me > the link. So far as I know the best to-date attempt to outline a procedure by which cryonics might work is Merkle's Molecular Repair of the Brain. Unless he has radically rewritten and restructured it, then I think you'd have to be a pretty good friend of Merkle's to want to go to the trouble of trying to critique it in its current form. The paper is structured so badly. I did start to try and constructively criticise it but found that to do so I would have had to restructure and rewrite it first. As I didn't think the information theoretic criteria of death was valid I wasn't willing to go to that much trouble. I have a copy of a 1993 Alcor publication called "Cryonics Reaching for Tomorrow" 4th Edn. In it there is an Appendix B written by Greg Fahy "primarily out of intellectual curiosity in response to Dr Ralph Merkle's paper "The Molecular Repair of the Brain" ". Perhaps if Fahy wrote a "how to" paper on cryonics it might be good enough for professionals to consider critiquing. > ----------------------- > > >If you do have a precise notion of how it could work step by step > >then, if your notion is internally inconsistent I could possibly point > >that out to you. If its not internally inconsistent and its step by > >step - perhaps you'd have persuaded me. > > > >If you can't say what cryonics is for you, and outline a path at > >least as good as Ralph Merkle in his paper then it might be that > >I can't find an internal contradiction for you because your idea > >is not developed enough to be demonstrably wrong. > > > > > ### Well, here is how I imagine cryonics might work for me: > > Cryonic vitrification very soon after death (a few hours, hopefully a > few minutes) will preserve the brain structure down to the level of > synapses, with intact synaptic protein levels (which define the synaptic > strength), and the levels of other proteins, including transcription > factors in the nucleus, and most RNA and protein in the cytoplasm and > the ECM. Minutes vs hours? Death as determined how? Vitrification how? Down to (and including the synapses I presume) - you'd want your memories. To capture you personal synapse pattern you'd need nanoscale resolution. As you know neurons are not nicely rounded cells like one might find in a high school text book - they are more like tree or root structures and the structure matters. Proteins levels alone won't do it you need to know where the proteins (and not just the proteins) were when they were in their natural state. >In other words, AFAIK the only things that are lost are the > momentary concentrations of ions and the resulting short-time-frame > electric excitation patterns, which are not important for long-term and > medium term memories. > > After a period of storage, a laser tissue machining device coupled to a > multi-head near-field scanning confocal microscope array will evaporate > layers of tissue, while the surface will be washed with a mixture of > antibody stains (with quantum-dot labeling) for every single molecular > species identified in the decades of my suspension as being important > for the behavioral manifestations of consciousness. This will allow 3-D > reconstruction of the whole brain connection pattern including the > synaptic strengths (not possible using the microtome because of tissue > deformation, but doable using laser machining). That evaporate layers of tissue at what temperature? How do you stop the tissue below the surface layer from heating up and information getting lost before you determine it? 3D reconstruction onto what substrate? Surely not the same sort of organic substrate as originally - how would you put it together without it decomposing. And if on some other substrate how would you translate the infromation from the first substrate (unique info remember as memories can't be templated out) onto another substrate? > All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions > of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet > available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). You don't say how you will do important steps. You don't talk about algorithms for storing information, for translation that information into something that could be ported to another sunstrate. Do you break the brain sized stating material down into smaller pieces? How do you prevent loss of info due to cracking? How do you move pieces around? > Then a sufficiently powerful computer will construct a neural network > replicating the connectivity pattern and the synaptic strengths, as well > as the rules of modification of the synaptic strengths in the course of > information processing, producing a device which will be behaviorally > sufficiently similar to me as to satisfy my desires regarding future > states of the world (to silence critics I don't even need to say that I > have been "reincarnated" or "brought back to life", or "survived", or > any such rigmarole - I only say that both I today and the device in the > future are satisfied with this particular outcome, and consider the > cryonics money well-spent). > Does this describe a sufficiently developed idea? No. It really, really doesn't. If you want numbers and technical analysis in a critique (see your statement above) then you'd have to do a lot more work yourself. And before you can put numbers on things you have to do more than just name a few potential tools. Merkle did some of the necessary work (badly) in my view, but he missed a lot more. > Do you know of any specific technical issues which would prevent it > from working as advertised? You haven't really engaged with *any* key "how to" engineering problems at all. You'd need to do that in a much more detailed and structured way in order to invite criticism. Granted that is virtually impossible to do in an email. > I could come up with some ballpark > estimates of the file sizes, numbers of antibodies, speed of laser > machining, but these are all mere technical details (nothing that would > be unreasonably expensive or time-consuming, as far as I can tell). "as far as I can tell" is a very big statement. Unless you wade into the problem space with a serious engineering frame of mind you aren't even starting to think about the sort of engineering problems that you'd have to solve. > Of course, unexpected > developments in technology could make it easier (e.g. molecular > nanotechnology), but would not impact the general feasibility of the plan. And unappreciated complexity in the biology of the brain could make it harder. Brett Paatsch From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 07:10:12 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 00:10:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: References: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504091500104eb4fcdb@mail.gmail.com> I think I see what you are getting at. But I would not call that being irrational. In fact, making yourself believe you can win the race even though you know you are running against a record-holder seems quite rational given the fact that faith in success is one of the prime components of a successful outcome. I'm not really much of a runner, and before a couple years ago had never done *any* distance running. Having reached my 40th birthday I decided it was now or never time for me to run a marathon. There were many, many times throughout my months of training where everything seemed to demonstrate to me that I'd never be able to do it. But I kept convincing myself I could do it, and surrounded myself with people who also encouraged me in that belief. I am certain that if I gave into the reasonable (if not rational) doubts about my chances of success I would have given up on the training and quit long before race day. I did everything I could to convince myself that my self-doubts were unfounded, even though those doubts had a very rational basis. But the whole time I was convincing myself I fully realized that my faith in my success would make it that much more likely that I'd actually be able to do it. I guess we could argue about it, but its seems to me that I was being very rational in my self-motivational techniques, rather than irrational. Zero On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:14:29 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I have many examples. Often you know that you do X better (X = sport, > business meeting, sex, ...) if you work yourself in a dreamy state of mind > where it is the only thing that matter so you give it total concentration > (they call this "flow" these days). But the belief that winning the dart > game at the pub is the most important thing in the world is irrational, > isn't it? (it is not so terribly important and there are probably other > things that you should be using your time for). > Sometimes when you want to achieve an objective you may choose to work > yourself in a positive state of mind where you firmly believe that you will > achieve it. This belief is irrational when you know that probabilities are > against you. But believing that you will win gives you some kind of positive > energy that (as far as the outcome does depend on how you play) actually > increases your chances. > I think we can make examples in artistic creation (I am not the right person > to do it as I have no artistic talent). > Sometimes you are just happier if you let yourself believe, for a little > while, things that you know are probably not correct. Being happier > energizes you and makes you perform better in other things. > In summary I think rationality is one of many behaviour modes that we can > choose, probably the best one most of the times but not the only one. The > best thing to do would be choosing (rationally) whether you want to think > and act rationally or not in a given situation (using for example what Greg > Egan calls "outlooks"). > G. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Zero Powers > Sent: mi?rcoles, 15 de septiembre de 2004 5:54 > To: Giu1i0 Pri5c0; ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality > > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you > talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. > picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior > actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the > desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? > > I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking about. > > Zero > > On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 17:40:39 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Come on Eliezer, rationality is a wonderful thing but lets not turn it > > into a cage for thoughts. In some circumstances you actually perform > > better, in an objective sense, if you choose to let yourself slip into > > an irrational mode for a little while. Ever tried? > > G. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 07:27:55 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:57:55 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Flybot, son of Slugbot Message-ID: <710b78fc040915002749b32085@mail.gmail.com> Self-sustaining killer robot creates a stink --- 15:13 09 September 04 Exclusive from New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues. It may eat flies and stink to high heaven, but if this robot works, it will be an important step towards making robots fully autonomous. http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996366 ---- This restores my faith in humanity. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 15 07:28:02 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:28:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915063700.26000.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Can either of you tell me what is rational concerning sports? Even the most trained pro football or hockey player for example risks seriously damaging their health, or being crippled. Boxers have been killed by a single punch. Though many pros make millions per year they can augment their health insurance with, does it appear rational they would want to take the ever-present risk of harming their tendons joints bones, in merely chasing a little ball or puck around a field? Is it rational for them to face excruciating pain, even for a short while? Is it rational for fans to become hysterical and riot after sports events? ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 08:22:53 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:22:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040915063700.26000.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c520409150122720a9def@mail.gmail.com> This is exactly my point. It is not very rational, but as long as you can have fun either doing sport or watching it without harming anyone, what's wrong? On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:28:02 +0100 (BST), Trend Ologist wrote: > Can either of you tell me what is rational concerning > sports? Even the most trained pro football or hockey > player for example risks seriously damaging their > health, or being crippled. Boxers have been killed by > a single punch. Though many pros make millions per > year they can augment their health insurance with, > does it appear rational they would want to take the > ever-present risk of harming their tendons joints > bones, in merely chasing a little ball or puck around > a field? Is it rational for them to face excruciating > pain, even for a short while? > > Is it rational for fans to become hysterical and riot > after sports events? From maxm at mail.tele.dk Wed Sep 15 08:34:56 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:34:56 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> References: <20040913143510.13436.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> <4145FD73.9010801@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4147FEB0.4050903@mail.tele.dk> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Anyone who wishes to make a serious commitment to rationality, to > learn it as an art the way that judo or fencing is an art, must commit > to being rational all the time, every time, twenty four hours a day > seven days a week, with not a single area of life reserved for > relaxing with some comfortable nonsense, not one place left where that > darned inconvenient rationality business can't stomp all over the > things you want to believe. The problem with rationality is that we are emotional beasts. You cannot use complete rationalism for anything. There is no rational reason to create a super intelligence, as it all rest on the premise that life is a good thing. But from a rational point of view it isn't. Only life itself cares whether life existst or not. And that premise is based entirely on feelings. Eg. there is no rational reason to keep on living at all. Yet I would beg to differ ;-) Furthermore we are imperfect beings. So while we might know rationally what to do, it can be very hard to actually do the right thing. But we are usually bright enough to understand that we are not doing the right thing. Like eating too much, excersising too little, spending too much money on unnessecary things etc. So if you expect yourself to act completely rational, you will only get depressed as you discover your own inadeqacies. Besides, acting rational while working, thinking discovering etc. is exciting, but sports, sex, love, food etc. is fun. I won't forsake what is fun for rationality. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 15 09:46:18 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:46:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <470a3c520409150122720a9def@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915094618.42864.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Agreed, Giulio. Though I don't like violent sports, if athletes want to harm themselves in sports, it is their business. If freak-show performers want to get paid for eating excrement, that is their business. What I resent is violent sports enthusiasts and war film buffs telling me porn is immoral. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 12:40:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915124018.75954.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed better? Are you > talking about some extreme statistical probability endeavor (i.e. > picking lottery numbers), or an everyday task where your behavior > actually has some reasonably predictable probability of effecting the > desired result (i.e. conducting a business or creative transaction)? > > I'm really interested in getting some idea of what you're talking > about. It's pretty plain that any activity requiring right brain dominance is performed better when one is not being rational. This includes sports, art, acting. When you are 'in the zone' on anything, you are no longer working in your rational centers, but operating strictly on an intuitive instinctive basis. Been there, done that, and it can be exhilerating. Your rational mind can only be amazed that you are capable of doing these things without its strict control... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 12:42:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091500104eb4fcdb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040915124227.28854.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > > I did everything I could to convince myself that my self-doubts were > unfounded, even though those doubts had a very rational basis. But > the whole time I was convincing myself I fully realized that my faith > in my success would make it that much more likely that I'd actually > be > able to do it. I guess we could argue about it, but its seems to me > that I was being very rational in my self-motivational techniques, > rather than irrational. Sorry, zero, you were being entirely loopy. Welcome to the club. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 12:52:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040915125218.22200.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Can either of you tell me what is rational concerning > sports? Even the most trained pro football or hockey > player for example risks seriously damaging their > health, or being crippled. Boxers have been killed by > a single punch. Though many pros make millions per > year they can augment their health insurance with, > does it appear rational they would want to take the > ever-present risk of harming their tendons joints > bones, in merely chasing a little ball or puck around > a field? Is it rational for them to face excruciating > pain, even for a short while? Some find pain addictive, and some find the 'second wind' addictive. Still others revel in adulation of fans, or in having set a world record, or in just maintaining oneself in peak physical condition. Having broken my back in a skiing accident at age 19, I can attest to this. I can categorically say that all the time I spend skiing, and ski racing, in the years before and since that accident outweigh by lightyears the pain I endured for a few months then and occasionally do now when I overextend myself. Looking forward to medical advances to prevent me from eventually contracting arthritis in that area of my back is no less rational than looking forward to nanotech to save my frozen corpsicle. > > Is it rational for fans to become hysterical and riot > after sports events? No, it isn't. But it does add excitement to what would otherwise be an incredibly dull life in some dull job and dull family and dull community in a dull nanny-state that wants to take care of you from cradle to grave (except of course when you are getting mugged). That such individuals have been bred that way by a pathetic public education system, and public welfare system is another issue entirely, but irrational government will create an irrational society. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jef at jefallbright.net Wed Sep 15 13:47:43 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:47:43 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <1095205868.87920b40namacdon@ole.augie.edu> References: <1095205868.87920b40namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Message-ID: <414847FF.50302@jefallbright.net> Nicholas Anthony MacDonald wrote: > Jef Allbright wrote: > > A rational approach to life includes both "rational" in the > > mathematical sense, and "rational" in the pragmatic sense. We > > INTJs have a hard time accepting this -- it's messy, but it works. > > > Precisely because it's the domain of us INTP's- we're the ones who > typically end up trying to figure out how to integrate man's > irrationality- and you end up cleaning up after us. :) > Integration is a key point. I've learned and grown a lot by living with someone very different from myself and dealing with life experiences, none of which I would have chosen on a rational basis at the time. A problem with trying to apply strict rationality is that we tend to paint ourselves into the corner, rationally attempting to maximize outcomes based on woefully incomplete knowledge. Strict rationality under incomplete knowledge (and it's always incomplete knowledge) can lead to terrible decisions up to war and genocide. What's typically missing in "rational" analysis is awareness of the Bayesian prior that what got us to where we are now (our evolved nature) is what worked and therefore carries weight as part of a successful strategy. Another problem is the economic one. This is why going with the flow, or being in the zone, is often rational in the pragmatic sense. In sports or battle, or when dealing with complex real-time situations (read: interpersonal relations), there isn't time to effectively analyze the available data in a rational way. To succeed in these situations one has to rely on one's "toolbox" of responses, pattern-matching to meet the situation rather than analyzing. How you look at is is all a matter of context and scope, and in the bigger picture, it's all completely rational and what works survives and grows. - Jef http://www.jefallbright.net From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Sep 15 13:47:14 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 23:47:14 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links References: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> Message-ID: <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> Hi Alex, Do you know how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do neurons pack at their tightest and most dense? Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get between them. In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because the space may be as little as 10s of nanometres in places (and the space map would be different for every brain - more different than variations in vasculature) and no nanobot with a payload worth a damn could get much smaller than a half a micron I'd guessimate. Cheers, Brett ----- Original Message ----- From: Alex Ramonsky To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org ; mind-l at yahoogroups.com ; murg at minduploading.org ; sag ; extrobritannia at yahoogroups.com ; fusioncore at yahoogroups.com ; technocalypse at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links Nice neuro links to dive into: ****************** http://brainmuseum.org/index.html (massive collection of mammalian brains) http://web.sfn.org/content/Publications/BrainBriefings/index.html (lots of diverse topics) http://www.neuroguide.com/index.html (neuroscience resources. This site can be a bugger to navigate) http://www.psy.ed.ac.uk/psychexps/Exps/experiments.html (psychology experiments) http://psych.hanover.edu/Research/exponnet.html (psychology experiments) http://www.beemnet.com/dana/virtuallabs.html (more invasive techniques. If squeamish bring sick bag) http://www.ucsf.edu/neurosc/faculty/Sretavan/freeze.html (Axon growth. -Massive file; don't go there without broadband) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/ (Biotechnology. The link 'OMIM' takes you to the Online Inheritance in Man site) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/madsweb/ (animations & pdf files about various bits of brain) http://www.med.uwo.ca/physiology/courses/sensesweb/ (animation of learning & memory.) http://www.uwm.edu/~johnchay/cc.htm (classical conditioning -you get to play with the variables. Entertaining when drunk.) Sites about motivation: http://www.nida.nih.gov/ http://www.lsa.umich.edu/psych/research&labs/berridge/Research.html Sites about emotion: http://mambo.ucsc.edu/psl/fanl.html http://www.unige.ch/fapse/emotion/ http://www.mrc-cbu.cam.ac.uk/Common/Research/cognition-emotion/index.shtml http://www.news.wisc.edu/packages/emotion/ http://emotion.salk.edu/Emotion/EmoRes/Psych/SelTops.html Sites about consciousness: http://www.consciousness.arizona.edu/ccsmain/Tucson2002/Tucson2002index.htm http://www.imprint.co.uk/jcs.html http://jamaica.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/ *********************** Enjoy! AR ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alito at organicrobot.com Wed Sep 15 14:24:53 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 00:24:53 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links In-Reply-To: <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <1095258293.10472.25.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2004-09-15 at 23:47 +1000, Brett Paatsch wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Do you know how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on > neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do > neurons pack at > their tightest and most dense? > > Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale > limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get > between them. > > In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the > extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because > the space may be > as little as 10s of nanometres in places (and the space map would be > different for every brain - more different than variations in > vasculature) and > no nanobot with a payload worth a damn could get much smaller than a > half a micron I'd guessimate. > Glial cells everywhere. Kill a couple and nobody will notice if you replace them with off the shelf models. Else, cut, go through, and repair once on the other side. (talking out of my ass, as per usual, and you did seem to imply nano-santas. plus i've got an extra-boring assignment on the other line). alejandro From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 13:58:29 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 06:58:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] ONLY 1.1 BILLION YEARS LEFT! Message-ID: <20040915135829.78249.qmail@web50802.mail.yahoo.com> AlwaysOn and Viewpoint West Partners: "Another interesting scenario is of course The Singularity. This term has a number of interpretations and refinements, like: 'a future time when societal, scientific and economic change is so fast we cannot even imagine what will happen from our present perspective, and when humanity will become posthumanity.' Some, like Vernor Vinge, go even further in discussing 'Intelligence Amplification' in the 'Post Human', i.e. Post Singularity, era where life is infinitely long. Intelligence Amplifiers, by the way, are future networks of huge capacity with incredible human / computer interaction. Vernor relates: '...This 'problem' about immortality comes up in much more direct ways. The notion of ego and self-awareness has been the bedrock of the hardheaded rationalism of the last few centuries. Yet now the notion of self-awareness is under attack from the Artificial Intelligence people ('self-awareness and other delusions'). Intelligence Amplification undercuts our concept of ego from another direction. The post-Singularity world will involve extremely high-bandwidth networking. A central feature of strongly superhuman entities will likely be their ability to communicate at variable bandwidths, including ones far higher than speech or written messages. What happens when pieces of ego can be copied and merged, when the size of a selfawareness can grow or shrink to fit the nature of the problems under consideration? These are essential features of strong superhumanity and the Singularity. Thinking about them, one begins to feel how essentially strange and different the Post-Human era will be -- _no matter how cleverly and benignly it is brought to be_ ...' Surely, the Post Humans can figure out how to deal with a Red Giant, right? If not, then I'd love to be in the moving box business in about a billion years, assuming there is somewhere to actually move to." http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=5731_0_5_0_C#215171095188533 http://www.vpwpartners.com/2004/09/only_11_billion.html From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 15:30:53 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 08:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] They are scared Message-ID: <20040915153053.4975.qmail@web50809.mail.yahoo.com> I must confess that I am very fond of Fukuyama's "The World's Most Dangerous Ideas - Transhumanism", appeared on Foreign Policy a few weeks ago. Of course I don't agree with Fukuyama: I completely agree with the replies of Ron Bailey and Nick Bostrom: http://www.reason.com/rb/rb082504.shtml http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/bostrom-responds-to-fukuyama/ Despite "dismiss transhumanists as some sort of odd cult, nothing more than science fiction taken too seriously", which used to be the mainstream attitude, Fukuyama now respects transhumanism as a dangerous enemy and acknowledges that "the new procedures and technologies emerging from research laboratories and hospitals-whether mood-altering drugs, substances to boost muscle mass or selectively erase memory, prenatal genetic screening, or gene therapy-can as easily be used to "enhance" the species as to ease or ameliorate illness". And we should thank him for "as transhumanists see it, humans must wrest their biological destiny from evolution's blind process of random variation and adaptation and move to the next stage as a species", a very good compact description of our worldview. Why do I like this paper? Because it shows how technophobes and bioluddites are beginning to realize that transhumanism makes sense, perhaps much more sense than their pointless appeals to ill-conceived and nebulous notions of "human dignity", "humility" (what a stupid word), and "reverence", and that more and more people may see things our way in the near future. They see that a powerful storm is coming and are scared to death. They still have all the advantages: they represent the mainstream, have well funded think tanks with paid skilled staff, and are listened to by policy makers, while transhumanists are often still perceived as a fringe group of volunteer activists with a half-baked philosophy. But they are probably realizing that sooner or later, sooner if we make the right moves, transhumanists may well have the same resources, maturity and status. At that point we will be very close to winning the battle because, all other factors being equal, we will have the advantage that our ideas make much more sense. Reading Fukuyama's paper really boosted my morale and motivation, so difficult to keep for volunteer activists: I can see that we are beginning to hurt them. From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Sep 15 16:18:45 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:18:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen In-Reply-To: <6DC769CE-064E-11D9-B7A6-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <6DC769CE-064E-11D9-B7A6-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: Hey just be clear when I said "seen" I meant "saw", as in "took a photo of" that sort of thing. Not simply, ho hum "detected". Have a look at Figure 1. > full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf best, patrick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 15 16:47:05 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040915164705.61696.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> THe images didn't load on this. --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > Hey just be clear when I said "seen" I meant "saw", as in "took a > photo > of" that sort of thing. Not simply, ho hum "detected". Have a look at > > Figure 1. > > > full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jonkc at att.net Wed Sep 15 17:20:09 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:20:09 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com><03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc><470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com><020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc><4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org><029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc><414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <014201c49b48$45558680$e9fe4d0c@hal2001> "Brett Paatsch" > I wouldn't think that perfect clone was me. In this case your opinion is not important, the important thing is if the perfect clone thinks it was you or not, you can think whatever you like. If the clone was made 10 seconds ago then the two are no longer perfect and the clone would no longer think it was you because he could not remember being you for the last 10 second. If the clone was made 10 nanoseconds ago things would be very different. > And I don't think that clone could be created because I don't think > the information to create it could be gathered to the requisite > resolution without destroying the original me in the process. Who cares. Which is the original, the 10 year old Brett Paatsch, the 10 month old Brett Paatsch or the one day old zygote Brett Paatsch? And is there any way to prove that you are not a copy of the original (whatever that means) and is there any reason to care if you were? John K Clark jonkc at att.net From velvethum at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 18:12:48 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (s. p.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:12:48 +0000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) Message-ID: >Who cares. Which is the original, the 10 year old Brett Paatsch, the 10 >month old Brett Paatsch or the one day old zygote Brett Paatsch? I hope you don't mind if I answer this. Brett at 10 years old is the same at 20 because his mind process never degenerated into, one, non-mind process, two, a mind process that is not Brett's process. He is the same because his mind process has been carving out the same, uninterupted line of three-dimensional chunks in space-time. That's why he has maintained his originality throughout his life. Memories/experiences aqcuired throughout person's life do not define identity. They do define his personality and psychological make-up, not his identity. And is >there any way to prove that you are not a copy of the original Yes, there is. Identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in space-time. There's room for only one mind process in the fabric of space time. Even a perfect clone will always maintain different trajectory from the original. (whatever >that means) and is there any reason to care if you were? If you value living then you should care because if the original you gets killed, the film ends, and you won't live, even though your clones might. Your personality will exist, but your subjective experience will register the same input as when you were unborn. Forever. Slawomir _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From megao at sasktel.net Wed Sep 15 17:42:57 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 12:42:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available References: <5943EB2B-FDE5-11D8-8326-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <413903B9.7090501@jefallbright.net> <948b11e04090519577e65a303@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41487F20.5CFE2BF7@sasktel.net> This fellow with Agriculture Canada was looking for a gmail acct: If he gets more than 1 he has at least one associate Maureen who would likely use it. From: Regnier, Dale To: orin at sasktel.net Cc: mfj.eav at gmail.com Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:56:43 -0400 Subject: Gmail address Hello: Morris Johnson said you had a gmail address you weren?t using and that I could make use of. Please let me know ASAP. Thanks. My home internet address is: der at sasktel.net Thanks, Dale E. Regnier Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada/Agriculture et Agroalimentaire Canada Telephone/T?l?phone: 306-848-4492 Facsimile/T?l?copieur: 306-848-4499 615 Railway Avenue Weyburn, Saskatchewan S4H 0A9 regnierd at agr.gc.ca Samantha Atkins wrote: > I have some too. Email me if you want one. > > On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 16:52:25 -0700, Jef Allbright wrote: > > I have a few more Gmail invitations available. Email me off-list if you > > would like one. > > > > - Jef > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From benboc at lineone.net Wed Sep 15 19:42:55 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:42:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Neuro links In-Reply-To: <200409151349.i8FDnb016062@tick.javien.com> References: <200409151349.i8FDnb016062@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41489B3F.2040209@lineone.net> Brett Paatsch wrote: "how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do neurons pack at their tightest and most dense? Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get between them. In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because the space may be as little as 10s of nanometres in places" That's an interesting question, but it does occur to me that neurons are not hard structures, but soft and squishy, and their membranes are more like liquid planes than solid sheets of stuff. Perhaps nanobots could 'swim' in or through the membranes, so that the packing density of the cells isn't so much of an issue. They shouldn't do any damage, as the membrane would just seal up behind them. One thing that nanobots might need to do is get into tight junctions. There is *no* space between cells there! ben From amara.graps at gmail.com Wed Sep 15 20:01:44 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 22:01:44 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Etna Talks in her Sleep Message-ID: Last September 7, a new fissure opened on the southeastern side of Etna Volcano in Sicily. I went to see with my own eyes because seeing Etna erupt has been a small dream of mine for some years. No fountains, but a wide lava flow is in progress, and last Monday night (September 13-14), I saw a sputtering vent, called a 'hornito' let loose for a few hours, shooting clumps of lava in all directions. Seeing photos is one thing, but seeing (and hearing!) these processes from a few to 100 meters away is entirely different. The raw power of the Earth opening its mouth left me a little bit breathless. The scientist in me was telling my other side how I am witnessing the energy left from the formation of the Earth and the subsequent meteoritic impacts, but the nonscientific part of me didn't care. Seeing this at night on the top of the mountain with the city of Catania (~600,000) below and the Milky Way above, will be one of the most beautiful experiences in my life. Because I was with experienced Etna guides, I could be there, but where were the other volcanologists and guides? We were alone. My two friends and I were the only ones (besides the web cam) seeing this beautiful sight while 600,000 people below us slept. I hope they were dreaming in technicolored lava. I'll point you to some photos (my friends are excellent volcano photographers) when they are ready. Amara Live Webcam on the lava flow (terrible video!) set up by the Italian Forestry service: http://etna2004.videobank.it/ Volcano Etna Rumbles Back into Life http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=39080 From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 15 20:10:25 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:10:25 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bart Kosko in Los Angeles Times Op-Ed Message-ID: <125150-220049315201025164@M2W085.mail2web.com> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMENTARY Terror Threat May Be Mostly a Big Bluff The facts point to overestimation by a frightened U.S. By Bart Kosko Bart Kosko teaches probability and statistics at USC, where he is a professor of electrical engineering. He is author of "Heaven in a Chip" (Random House, 2000). September 13, 2004 Just what is the evidence for this alleged terrorist threat that now dominates foreign affairs and the presidential election? The third anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks on the Pentagon and New York's World Trade Center has come and gone without any terrorist attacks in the U.S. No terrorists attacked the Olympics in Greece, as so many feared. Nor did they attack the Republican convention in New York. And the big statistical picture of terrorism has changed little in years. Deaths because of terrorism worldwide have increased a bit lately (especially after the school attack in Russia), but the number still remains on the order of about a thousand deaths a year, according to the State Department ? a small fraction of the 15,000 or so murders each year in the United States, or the 40,000 who die in car accidents. The Bush administration and many others interpret these facts as proof that the government is winning its "war on terror" (even though Osama bin Laden still roams free and threatens from afar). And they may be right. It's conceivable that there would have been some attacks by now if not for the government's stepped-up security at home and its vigorous anti-terrorism efforts abroad. We don't know. We do know that studies of our statistical competency show both that we systematically overestimate the probability of vivid, high-profile threats such as shark bites and terrorist bombings and that we poorly estimate the probability of less glamorous dangers like highway fatalities. The comparative absence of terrorism could just as easily (and I believe, more reasonably) support the very different conclusion that we have overestimated ? grossly overestimated ? the terrorist threat. We may be "winning" a war against terrorism simply because there are few terrorists out there posing a serious threat to the U.S. We may have traded substantial civil liberties and international goodwill in the last three years for a lot more security than we need. Answering these questions involves a subtle type of formal reasoning called negative evidence: Sometimes a search that finds nothing is evidence that there is nothing. Suppose you shop in a store and then can't find your car keys. How much of the store must you search before you conclude the keys are not there? The negative evidence for this conclusion grows as the search widens and finds nothing. The strength of the negative evidence depends on the size and complexity of the search area. For instance, we have good negative evidence that there is no Loch Ness monster because no sonar sweep of the Scottish lake has found such a creature. We have less good negative evidence that there is no Bigfoot because we have not fully searched the larger and more complex area of pine forests in Northern California. And we have no good negative evidence at all that we are alone in the cosmos because we have just started to search the vast heavens for signs of structured energy. The war in Iraq gives a telling example of negative evidence. The coalition forces still cannot find the alleged stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. The weapons may be there, but the negative evidence that they are not grows stronger each day as a wider search finds nothing. The Bush administration has said, in effect, that it is better to be safe than sorry, not just with regard to weapons of mass destruction in Iraq but with terrorist threats at home. The trouble is that all bureaucracies have a well-known incentive to over-rely on being safe than sorry. No one wants to risk approving a new drug or airplane design that has even a slight chance of killing someone, even if the drug can save lives or the design can greatly increase flight efficiency. A related problem is that terrorists have an incentive to exaggerate their strength in order to frighten their opponents and to attract recruits and donations. The result is an inadvertent global equilibrium where governments play it safe by overestimating the terrorist threat, while the terrorists oblige by overestimating their power. A tight presidential race only heightens these perverse incentives all around. The bottom line is this: There will always be terrorists and legitimate efforts to catch and kill them. But meanwhile, the bigger statistical threat comes from the driver next to you who is talking on the cellphone. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Copyright 2004 Los Angeles Times -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From rafal at smigrodzki.org Wed Sep 15 22:19:08 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 18:19:08 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <4148BFDC.3090208@smigrodzki.org> Brett Paatsch wrote: >Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > >> Thus, the concept of "identity" is >>in fact a whole slew of related but distinct concepts, with >>different properties and referents. >> >> > >I've no problem with this but it doesn't seem relevant here. As >Slawomir Paliwoda says in his excellent post on Personal Identity, >"personal identity depends on a mind powered by the brain which is >a physical object, and like all other objects, it can and should be >subject to scientific investigation." > >And .... "once we agree that, in science, there's only one correct >explanation for something at the exclusion of other theories, we can >say that there can only be one explanation/description of personal >identity that is true and all other theories are false." > > ### Now, this is news to me: do you think that Euclid's parallel axiom is true? False? Neither? Non-scientific? Or more: since the taste of rocquefort depends on chemical interactions, which are subject to scientific investigation, what is the correct taste of rocquefort? Generally, science doesn't necessarily produce exclusive either/or results, and doesn't directly make normative statements. The statement: "I like the idea of having a self-similar material structure in the future" is normative, and its normative content *may not* be subject to verification - just as the normative content of your statement "I don't care about having self-similar material structures in the future, except if produced by continuity (of sorts) with my present structure". ------------------------------------ > > >>I accept that your (Brett Paatch's) identity is what you say, since >>this is what is produced by the processes in your brain (and my >>meta-rule for such definitions is that they are produced by the >>brains in a self-referential manner) . It's a fact, albeit a fact >>pertaining only to Brett Paatsch. Now, my own, Rafal's identity >>is defined differently. It is also a fact. Although the definitions >>are different, they are not contradictory - they apply to different >>objects, just like the varied definitions of an "original" in the art >>world. Even though your definition of self is different from mine >>(not even analogous), I do not think you are mistaken - merely >>different. Do you see the point? >> >> > >Yes, I understand what your saying, but I think that you have >gone off on a tangent. You are taking us away from a discussion >on cryonics and of the obstacles cryonics would inevitably have >to overcome to be of interest to people like you and I. That is >people that currently have our sense of self located in our brains. > > ### No, I am not going off at a tangent - because I am not like you. My sense of self is not "located" in my brain, it's located in my personality-defining information-like structures. ---------------------------- > You are currently located in >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to >be of interest to either of us. > > > ### Yes, my personality-defining information is inscribed in my brain, currently. My aspirations for cryonics deal with this excellently. --------------------------------------- >>In other words, you are a universalist, believing that a >>single definition of self (your own) is the only correct one >>("all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense >>of self....."), while I am a pluralist, letting everyone decide >>where their own (and only their own) identities lie. >> >> > >You've split my sentence in the middle when you quote me >above. I'd said "all members of the species homo sapiens have >their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain". >That is not me defining a self concept. That is me pointing out >that whatever our self concepts are they are *located* if we >are homo sapiens in our brain structure. > > ### I don't know how you can claim that a concept is "located" anywhere. A concept may be written down in a particular book, or be embodied in a patented machine, but the word "located" should only be used for material objects. Let me quote your full paragraph to which I referred above: "I do think all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain. I think that it is a mistake to think that someone who is now a homo sapiens can be abstracted out of their cellular substrate and yet somehow continue to exist as disembodied pattern and then to be re-instantiated again. I think that the self is lost in the process." In other words, you say that for all humans, sense of self is "inherent" in the brain and is inevitably lost during transfer of information. The use of the universal qualifier makes it sound like a definition, insisting that for all humans, whatever is transferred ("re-instantiated") cannot be self. ----------------------------------- >>If you mean "functioning without any material substrate", then no, >>of course not. >> >> > >Ok. So you think you would cease to exist as "you" while you exist >only as a dataset of information for building you at a later date? > > ### What do you mean by "exist"? I would exist as static information, I would not exist as a conscious information processor. -------------------------------- >Sort of cake - recipe -cake. While your a recipe your not a cake. > > ### Yes, sure, I have no problem with existing as a recipe. I am both a recipe and a cake at this time (I can be used as source of information for making copies and I keep processing information at the same time), in the future I might temporarily exist as a recipe only, and then resume normal functioning. ------------------------------------ >>> <>### Let me ask you something: do you think that it could be in >>> principle >>> possible to analyze the material structure of your brain, and use the >>> information to make a brain which would behave in a way consistent >>> (similar enough) with you (e.g. identify pictures of your mother as "My >>> mother", or on seeing things you like say it likes them, etc.etc.)? >> > >It might be. In principle. It might be possible to create what Slawomir >Paliwoda calls a perfect clone. I wouldn't think that perfect clone was >me. And I don't think that clone could be created because I don't think >the information to create it could be gathered to the requisite resolution >without destroying the original me in the process. > > ### No, I didn't ask about the "perfect clone" - I merely asked about a copy which would behave consistently with you (have largely the same responses to the same stimuli as you do). The exact level of similarity here might be as low as that sufficient to fool all the persons you know into believing the copy is actually you. Whether making such a copy can be achieved without disassembly of you is not relevant to the question. And yes, I already know you wouldn't see the clone as "you". ------------------------------------------ >>But, if you agree that a sufficiently >>advanced technology could produce such a brain, then you >>cannot say we disagree about facts. >> >> > >I can conceed the possibility, but I don't find it worth giving >a lot of thought too, given that I realise I would not be my >"perfect clone". And there are plenty of other 'facts' yet for >us to disagree over. > > ### Great! You agree that the disagreement is about value - you "don't find it worth giving a lot of thought to"! This is the point - you are not interested in having such a clone, but I am. ----------------------------------------------- > > >>Both you and me would agree that it is physically possible >>to make copies of our brains that would act similarly to the >>originals. The only difference is that I am sufficiently satisfied >>with/enthusiastic about the prospect of having such a copy >>in the future that I am willing to pay for cryonics (and yes, I >>even value this situation equally with "survival" by >>spatiotemporal continuity of cells), while a copy of you >>would not elicit sufficient interest from you. >> >> > >I get what you are saying. But your right I wouldn't be sufficently >satisified or enthusiastic. To me you are excepting that you >will die (be materially decomposed and cease as a process) but >are taking consolation that something just like you will be >brought back to life (recomposed and started as a process via >means which you conceed you do not in detail understand). > >Your diverting limited resources from solving problems or >overcoming limits in your current you-process in order to endow >life to some future you-process. Even though the current and >future you-processes will not overlap in time. Correct? > > ### Yes, exactly! This is indeed the case, whether you call dying-and-recomposing, or and I call it "survival", this is indeed the case. In the future (e.g. after my premature death in an explosion of a liquid nitrogen tank :) my recomposed copy may contact you, and while acknowledging that by your definition I am dead and he is somebody else, he tells you he remembers from a first-person perspective our present discussion, and that life is great, he's been boozin' an' humpin' like in the old times. Ain't cryonics great, or what? --------------------------------- > > >In fairness, why should anyone want to provide numbers or technical >analysis? What is in it for them? To do that they'd have to take on a >burden at some opportunity cost of time. If you had laid out numbers >and technical analysis in detail yourself then they might do you the service >of checking and perhaps correcting any errors etc. > > ### Opinions of scientists are valuable only insofar as they rely on superior knowledge and technical analysis. Without these, scientist's opinions about a subject (e.g. rocquefort or cryonics) are not any more significant than the opinions of carpenters or business executives. The technical analysis must be disclosed for verification, or else it's reasonable to infer that the opinion is groundless (based on ignorance). --------------------------------------- > > >> Therefore, I am justified in treating >>scientific detractors of cryonics as ignorant, since if they knew any >>scientific arguments, they would have used them. >> >> > >That is a non sequitor. People generally need a reason to do >work that your not paying then to do, they don't normally need a reason to >avoid working for nothing. > > ### Some scientists offer unsolicited opinions about cryonics without facts and numbers - why? Nobody is paying them to do so. -------------------------------- >>### Well, here is how I imagine cryonics might work for me: >> >>Cryonic vitrification very soon after death (a few hours, hopefully a >>few minutes) will preserve the brain structure down to the level of >>synapses, with intact synaptic protein levels (which define the synaptic >>strength), and the levels of other proteins, including transcription >>factors in the nucleus, and most RNA and protein in the cytoplasm and >>the ECM. >> >> > >Minutes vs hours? > ### There is some mild ultrastructural damage within 20 minutes of warm ischemia (mitochondrial swelling), and after 24 hours there is visible retraction of a significant number of synapses. Therefore, loss of personality-defining information occurs somewhere during that time, probably no less than 5-6 hours. Anything less than 30 minutes should be perfectly safe, based on imaging of vitrified samples. --------------------------------- > Death as determined how? > ### By cessation of heartbeat. ------------------------------- > Vitrification how? > ### Using Alcor's current procedure. ------------------------------ > Down >to (and including the synapses I presume) - you'd want your memories. >To capture you personal synapse pattern you'd need nanoscale >resolution. > ### The resolution provided by a near-field scanning optical microscope is more than sufficient (goes down to 32 nm) to image synapses (500 - 5000 nm). A confocal scanning microscope has lower resolution but still sufficient to image synapses (and even actin filaments). ----------------------------------------- > As you know neurons are not nicely rounded cells like one >might find in a high school text book - they are more like tree or root >structures and the structure matters. > ### I do not get my information about neurons from high school textbooks. ------------------------------- > Proteins levels alone won't do >it you need to know where the proteins (and not just the proteins) >were when they were in their natural state. > > ### This is why you need to use a confocal or near-field scanning microscope, as described. Non-proteinaceous molecular species can also be detected by antibodies. In the unlikely case of nucleic acids assays being necessary, oligonucleotide in situ hybridization can be used (FISH). You can actually see single molecules in a regular microscope in this way. ---------------------------------- > >That evaporate layers of tissue at what temperature? > ### Up to 10 000 kelvin, same as in a commercial lasik or other tissue machining system. ---------------------------- > How do you stop >the tissue below the surface layer from heating up and information getting >lost before you determine it? > > ### Using very short laser pulses of the correct frequency. Published data describe no visible ultrastructural damage beyond a few hundred nanometers with conventional lasik, and that is much less than the depth of focus for a scanning confocal microscope. -------------------------------------- >3D reconstruction onto what substrate? > ### 3D computational model. -------------------------------- >Surely not the same sort of >organic substrate as originally - how would you put it together without >it decomposing. And if on some other substrate how would you translate >the infromation from the first substrate (unique info remember as memories >can't be templated out) onto another substrate? > > ### What do you mean by "templated out"? ------------------- > > >>All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions >>of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet >>available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). >> >> > >You don't say how you will do important steps. You don't talk about >algorithms >for storing information, > ### Algorithms? The intermediate scan data can be stored as any other form of digital imaging data. ---------------------------------- > for translation that information into something >that >could be ported to another sunstrate. > > ### Explain? ------------------------ >Do you break the brain sized stating material down into smaller pieces? > > ### Do you mean if I work on the whole brain or first cut it up? No, this method would not require prior dissection. ----------------------- >How do you prevent loss of info due to cracking? > ### Since nanoscale information about the structure of the crack surfaces would be available, the cracked surfaces can be apposed in the 3D model, just like freeze-fractured cell surfaces can be matched in the freeze-fracture scanning electron microscope. ------------------------------------------ > How do you move >pieces around? > > > ### Pieces? ------------------------ >>Then a sufficiently powerful computer will construct a neural network >>replicating the connectivity pattern and the synaptic strengths, as well >>as the rules of modification of the synaptic strengths in the course of >>information processing, producing a device which will be behaviorally >>sufficiently similar to me as to satisfy my desires regarding future >>states of the world (to silence critics I don't even need to say that I >>have been "reincarnated" or "brought back to life", or "survived", or >>any such rigmarole - I only say that both I today and the device in the >>future are satisfied with this particular outcome, and consider the >>cryonics money well-spent). >> >> > > > >>Does this describe a sufficiently developed idea? >> >> > >No. It really, really doesn't. If you want numbers and technical analysis >in a critique (see your statement above) then you'd have to do a lot more >work yourself. And before you can put numbers on things you have to >do more than just name a few potential tools. > ### Wait - you wanted to have an outline of "how cryonics might work for me", to prevent misunderstandings and ambiguities, and not discuss an idea so insufficiently developed that it would start mutating under analysis, like a religious concept (at least this is how I read your question). The outline I gave suffices to define my proposed cryonics approach. Now, if are you ready to give me a technical critique yourself , tell me which additional data do you need, and which numbers that I provided above and below do you disagree with. --------------------------- > >You haven't really engaged with *any* key "how to" engineering problems >at all. > ### I engaged: - how to freeze - how to collect information and I hinted at how the information could be used. What other key engineering problems do you see here? ----------------------------------- >>I could come up with some ballpark >>estimates of the file sizes, numbers of antibodies, speed of laser >>machining, but these are all mere technical details (nothing that would >>be unreasonably expensive or time-consuming, as far as I can tell). >> >> > >"as far as I can tell" is a very big statement. Unless you wade into the >problem space with a serious engineering frame of mind you aren't even >starting to think about the sort of engineering problems that you'd have >to solve. > > ### OK, you have about 1700 cubic centimeters of tissue (actually less if you can find methods for substituting generic information for some subcortical brain areas not involved in personal episodic memories, the main type of memories I want to have analyzed). At a resolution of 50 cubic nanometers (more than sufficient to show synapses) there would be 13.6 x 10^12 voxels. The imaging procedure would need to reliably image probably no less than 70% of synaptic connections (given the known redundancy of the brain, but Anders could perhaps give us more details), and estimate the synaptic strengths to within 10% of their true values (there is some degree of drift of synaptic strengths in the living brain, which means you don't need to be very precise in measuring, but exactly how much you can drift and still get largely the same behavioral effects is unknown). The range of values for synaptic strength should not be significantly above 8-bit depth. Given that there are many hundreds of types of synapses, the actual number of bits per voxel might be as high 20 to 25. Some of the data would be needed to describe cellular membranous structures, as well as post-translationally modified proteins. All in all the uncompressed image of the structural substrate of personality might be on the order of 10^20 bit. This is only a few thousand petabytes, not an unreasonable data volume to work on in 20 years from now. The computing capacity needed to transform this uncompressed image into a functionally equivalent neural network simulation is quite large by today's standards, but given the estimates of Moravec, the processing power needed to actually run the neural network is unlikely to be many orders of magnitude more than 100 teraflops/s, a capacity available even now. Criticize technically now, please : ) Rafal From rafal at smigrodzki.org Wed Sep 15 23:02:27 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:02:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Personal Identity (was: A view on cryonics) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4148CA03.9060305@smigrodzki.org> Hi Slawek, s. p. wrote: > Well, don't get me wrong. "Mind pattern defines personal identity" > theory is > not entirely false. The reason why it breaks down so easily when > applied to > even most basic thought experiments is the same as why it is not entirely > false - it's simply not a complete/precise theory because it focuses > on just one > of the aspects of what PI is. Obviously, to some extent, PI depends on > the > mind pattern in a sense that if mind pattern changes or is damaged, it > must > influence PI, but is that all there is to it? ### Somehow I don't recall any thought experiments of yours that would make my feeling of personal identity break down. Can you refresh my memory? If I recall correctly, at some point I had you claiming that forcibly erasing all your memories by rearranging synaptic strengths into a totally different personality wouldn't really kill you as long as your brain was going on living.Wasn't that a cool thought experiment? ----------------------------- > > Example: Suppose some person uploads his mind pattern onto 2 machines > which now > run his mind. > > Question: Do these coexisting uploads share the same PI? > > Answer: They do not, because each mind process is defined by parameters > (matter in space-time) that do not share the same exact values. These > uploads share the same *kind* of mind process but their identities are > different. They are not the same person but perfect clones only. ### If they are my uploads, they do, since I (and therefore each of my copies) choose to treat my copies as self (I am a *kind* of mind, not a particular mind). If they are your uploads, then it's as you say. ------------------------------- > > Question: If one of the uploads is damaged beyond repair (dies), does it > mean the damaged upload will still live because the other upload will? > > Answer: No, the damaged upload dies and won't live again unless you time > travel and physically transport it to the present. His subjective > experience > is now death (=nothingness). > ### Yesterday there was a man named Slawek. Today a man named Slawek-continuation writes a post. What is the subjective experience of yesterday's Slawek? Is he dead? Or is he writing a post? Rafal From velvethum at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 23:00:45 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 19:00:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) Message-ID: Brett wrote: >You are currently located in >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to >be of interest to either of us. That is exactly right. If we assume that protecting our identities must necessarily involve preserving our original mind processes instead of our mind patterns, then we must expect the future cryonic revival procedure to offer a workable process-preserving solution before people like me can sign up. Let me offer such a solution, I've been sitting on for few years now, which is a transfer mechanism that relocates an original mind process to various substrates. Because preserving identity-carrying mind activity goes few steps further than what is required for protecting a mind pattern, this new transfer postulates additional constraints on the cryonic revival procedure. Unfortunately, the bad news for potential cryonic patients who subscribe to a "true identity is defined by the uniqueness of a mind process in space-time" view is that cryonics is almost a hopeless technology as far as identity preservation is concerned. This is because any reliable mind relocation method prefers not only as little loss of mind pattern data as possible, but also, more importantly, a mind that is able to function within the original substrate. While cryonics is very much vulnerable to the loss of mind pattern data, it is probably even more so when it's expected to repair the original hardware to the point when the mind process can resume its operation within that substrate. Or maybe it's up to nanotech to fix this problem. In any case, it seems like we're in deep trouble. The good news is that cryonic revival methods are not entirely hopeless. Even though a task of reviving a mind process within an original hardware will be incredibly hard, it doesn't seem impossible. However, from a theoretical point of view, one might observe potentially big problem. Could a mind process survive the break in its continuity? After all, a mind cannot emerge if its hardware cannot function. It would be tempting to reason that freezing evaporates identity, which is a property grounded in a brain activity that would be unquestionably absent while in a deep freeze, but the reason why this would be wrong is that, instead of being absent, the process is merely pausing its execution. The process survives because the hardware and software that enable the emergence of a mind are still there and so is the identity. With that out of the way, let me move on to the details of the transfer itself. In order to successfully transplant a mind onto a different substrate, I impose two constraints on the procedure. 1) Mind process must function within the original substrate. (It doesn't have to be conscious. It just has to execute in some form). 2) Unity of mind must be preserved at all times. The first constraint might be obvious. The transfer cannot happen without an existing process ready to be relocated. The second requirement constrains the way in which the shift is to be performed to avoid creating additional copies of the mind. Even though cryonics deals with biological-to-artificial transfers, for the sake of clarity, I'll assume artificial-to-artificial transfer to better illustrate the mechanism. Two separate machines are located on different planets, and are connected by some interplanetary, and sufficiently fast communication link. Machine A executes some person's mind process, while machine B consists of hardware suited to receive that mind process, but is not running one at the moment. Then, the mind is divided into N number of imaginary mind units. At first, machine A carries 100% of the units, while machine B has 0%. Transfer begins by reading one unit on A at a time and writing it to B. Then, the unit now sitting on B gets integrated into the overall mind process. This makes the original unit fetched from A redundant, so it is deleted. At this point, the mind operates using N-1 units on A and 1 unit on B. The operation progresses until 100% of mind units that used to occupy A now inhabit B. In this way, any mind process could potentially be relocated onto any suitable medium without the loss of identity, grounded in the mind process. It is that grounding that allows us complete disregard for the substance of the substrate as long as the unity of mind is maintained. If the focus was only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their identity in, the second constraint would be meaningless here, (what's the point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), and that would lead only to logical confusion and situations where two copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity. Obviously, the procedure present here is very strict because it shifts one mind unit at a time and allows coexistence of only single unit across the machines. I imagine that, in practice, whole chunks of mind units might be allowed to coexist during the transfer because they alone wouldn't contribute that much to the emergence of a complete and independent mind. The second constraint prevents the procedure from creating any additional copies of the original process because that would inevitably lead to creation of a new mind process and, automatically, a new identity. In that case, the procedure wouldn't result in a successful identity transfer, but merely a birth of a perfect clone. The second constraint also requires the mechanism to maintain functionality of a single mind process stretched across different platforms. It's crucial that the one and only copy of the mind subjected to the transfer does not degenerate into a non-mind process at any point during the relocation. Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective experience during the operation. Ultimately, it's all about subjective experience. No transfer can claim to be identity-preserving unless it guarantees the integrity and continuation of subjective experience during a substrate switch. Recognizing identity as uniqueness of mind process in space-time helps us define the conditions necessary for subjective experience to flow between different computational mediums. This allows us to view the mind as a physical phenomenon and a tangible container for the seemingly intangible subjective experience. This, in turn gives us license to define transferring procedures in scientific terms, i.e., measurable parameters of physical objects. Whatever subjective experience is, mind process enables it and that's the only thing we need to be paying attention to, confident in the truth that as long as we preserve the physical integrity of that process, we'll keep subjective experience intact. Slawomir Paliwoda From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 00:05:13 2004 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915072802.22310.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916000513.93856.qmail@web60007.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Can either of you tell me what is rational > concerning sports? It's fun, emotionally, satisfying, social, and except for the common scrape or sprain (serious injuries do happen, but far less often, how much less often I can't say. And catastrophic injuries or death occur as well, but rarely.) good for you physically. Also, it's very much a "personal growth" and self-discovery activity, since it teaches about the primitive beast upon which your "persona" is "mounted" for the ride of your life. Best, Jeff Davis "Everything's hard till you know how to do it." Ray Charles _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 00:20:06 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Spiritual Transhumanism (was Mature rationality) In-Reply-To: <7a32170504091420547045a1f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040916002006.72091.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hmm. Examples please? When have you "slipped into > an irrational > mode" (whatever that means) and actually performed > better? Spirituality seems to get a bad rap in transhuminist circles. This is somewhat understandable as transhumanists are for the most part rationalists and rationalists tend to be skeptical. This is fine and healthy. In my experience however rationalists tend to grow so accustomed to debunking everything that they come to hold a blind faith in their own skepticism. This is unhealthy. In my opinion a true transhumanist should be willing to explore other paths to self-improvement and self-actualization than merely those of science and rational thought. Often times at the outset, these paths seem to be irrational, until you follow them to their end. Once you have arrived you realize that the perceived irrationality of the path to begin with was an illusion caused by insufficient information to make a valid assessment. Due to my own experiences in karate, the best example I can think of off the top of my head is the martial arts. As a scientist, being rational is my stock in trade. So one can imagine that I was at first very confused about how and why things are done in a traditional martial art form such as karate. The stances and techniques are not natural or intuitively obvious and require much practice and molding of ones body in strength and flexibility in order to achieve. In practicing katas (called forms in other martial arts) often times you do moves that don??t seem to make sense. These forms are handed down generation to generation and some of them have been in existence for hundreds of years. They seem irrational, they are difficult to do, and their explanation by those that teach the martial arts are often esoteric and couched in the mysticism of zen Buddhism. Despite all these reasons to be skeptical, I tried it and it works. Now that I am able to do many of these forms and techniques myself, I have the information I need to analyze them and they are profound. The shotokan stepping punch is one of the most mechanically efficient and devastating martial arts maneuvers one can perform. It utilizes ones mass, power, balance, flexibility and timing in conjunction with gravity in such a way that my girl friend, who is half my size, can break inch thick wooden boards with ease. I won??t stretch your credulity with explanations involving ki, emptiness, sanchi, and all the metaphysics involved in learning martial arts. I will tell you that if I had sat there and tried to deduce a way of punching that would have optimized all these physical parameters, I would have gotten way too bogged down in details to have succeeded in any kind of timely fashion. Transhumanists these days seem to have a prejudice against any knowledge or idea that is older than they are. Ideas are always just that. Ideas can be right or they can be wrong. Old ideas can be right and new ideas can be wrong. Truths can become falsehoods and fictions can become truths. Sometimes something true becomes untrue and then after a time becomes true again. But no idea truly represents ulitimate reality. Since all theories, models, and paradigms are mental constructs that to a greater or lesser extent approximate reality yet never achieve the resolution to actually reproduce reality, they are all decoupled from the physical nature of ultimate reality itself. Since transhumanism deals essentially with using ideas to optimize ones physical existence, these ideas need not be limited to mere technological ones nor even rational ones for that matter as long as they work. Instead if the path to transcendence and self actualization cuts through fairy land or the spirit world, a true transhumanist must be willing to go there. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From velvethum at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 00:21:42 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 20:21:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Personal Identity (was: A view on cryonics) References: <4148CA03.9060305@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: > ### Somehow I don't recall any thought experiments of yours that would > make my feeling of personal identity break down. Can you refresh my memory? Hi Rafal! Don't you remember the one about two strangers whose minds, by pure chance, merged into the same mind pattern? As far as I remember you told me the moment their patterns became identical they must have shared the same identity. Pretty dramatic stuff. > If I recall correctly, at some point I had you claiming that forcibly > erasing all your memories by rearranging synaptic strengths into a > totally different personality wouldn't really kill you as long as your > brain was going on living.Wasn't that a cool thought experiment? Yeah, that was cool. And yes, I still claim that memories of your 5th birthday party do not influence your identity one bit. The loss may influence who you are as a person, to some extent, but not the identity. > > Example: Suppose some person uploads his mind pattern onto 2 machines > > which now > > run his mind. > > > > Question: Do these coexisting uploads share the same PI? > > > > Answer: They do not, because each mind process is defined by parameters > > (matter in space-time) that do not share the same exact values. These > > uploads share the same *kind* of mind process but their identities are > > different. They are not the same person but perfect clones only. > > ### If they are my uploads, they do, since I (and therefore each of my > copies) choose to treat my copies as self (I am a *kind* of mind, not a > particular mind). If they are your uploads, then it's as you say. Well, you're dead wrong on that, Rafal, and I'm sure you perceive my views as dead wrong. But here's the thing. Now I know *why* we disagree and it has everything to do with grounding identity in the correct definition of the mind, which is something I talk about in my original post. The root of our disagreement is that, while we both recognize that identity should be grounded in the mind, your mind is defined by a *pattern* while I view it as a *process*. If you don't mind, let me quote a fragment of my original post where I talk about this : [In my view it is incorrect to define mind as a mind pattern because patterns are static and our minds are dynamic. The reason why "mind pattern" view is not entirely false, but merely incomplete, is that it ignores the dynamic nature of our minds. That dynamic manifests itself not as a pattern but as a *process* that this pattern enters into. We are able to think and be conscious not because our mind structures carry this or other pattern but because there exists an process that executes on that pattern. Analogously, mind pattern is just like a computer software loaded onto a hardware (brain). If the power is cut to the computer, the machine just sits there and does nothing. It is "dead". It comes to "life" only when the electricity flows through hardware and forces software-defined processes to take place. "Life", however, is not, in this case, a function of electricity but the function of an overall process that happens within the system. The mental existence likewise can only occur when electrical signals flow through our brainware-software, i.e. that existence/life is totally dependent on the process that executes on the mind pattern. Life is a process, not a pattern. Next step is to define the parameters of a process. Each process is defined by matter flowing through space and time. Mind process can therefore be defined as a function of the flow of matter in space and time also, and since personal identity is grounded in the mind process, it can only be defined by matter flowing through space-time.] > > Question: If one of the uploads is damaged beyond repair (dies), does it > > mean the damaged upload will still live because the other upload will? > > > > Answer: No, the damaged upload dies and won't live again unless you time > > travel and physically transport it to the present. His subjective > > experience > > is now death (=nothingness). > > > ### Yesterday there was a man named Slawek. Today a man named > Slawek-continuation writes a post. What is the subjective experience of > yesterday's Slawek? Is he dead? Or is he writing a post? I ground my definition of mind in the brain activity as opposed to brain data. My subjective experience is a manifestation of my mind process which exists in the present, and present only. My mind does not exist somewhere in the past which we can access *right now*. The past does not exist. My subjective experience is contained by my mind process carving the same trajectory in the fabric of space-time, and it always exists exclusively in the *now*. And since there are no multiple *nows*, I'm always the original copy. Slawomir From amara.graps at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 07:52:01 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:52:01 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Etna Talks in her Sleep Message-ID: I said: >Live Webcam on the lava flow (terrible video!) set up by the >Italian Forestry service: >http://etna2004.videobank.it/ Now I realize, the video was terrible because it was an infrared night view. During the day you see a typical web cam video. These descriptions of the web cam explains much better, and give details of the lava flow and the vents: http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/others/etna/etna04-en.html The web cam shows one story, but is an overall rather boring view I think. The upcoming pictures to which I will point you (when they are ready) will be much more interesting. Stay tuned. Amara From alex at ramonsky.com Thu Sep 16 09:01:08 2004 From: alex at ramonsky.com (Alex Ramonsky) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:01:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuro links References: <41399850.607@ramonsky.com> <018301c49b2a$8214f600$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <41495654.1090600@ramonsky.com> Hello! The synaptic cleft (the actual 'gap' bit of the gap) is about 10 to 20 nm across. (The synaptic 'gap' is the space between and the membranes both sides, so about 20-30nm) A single vesicle full of neurotransmitter is about 50nm in diameter, and fits at least 10,000 molecules of transmitter inside. It has to really move its ass and if the gap were any bigger, we'd probably all have been eaten waiting for the fight flight response to happen : ) Diameter of neurons varies from 4 micron (granule cell) to 100 micron (motor neuron in cord) (Diameter of neuron nucleus = 3 to 18 micron). The plasma membrane itself is about 5nm. Diameter of microtubule = 20-25 nm Diameter of neurofilament = 7-10 nm ...But the density of neurons is an individual thing, and will vary from area to area in each individual, and throughout that individual's lifetime. An individual who regularly uses all bits of the brain a lot will really pack 'em in, especially in bits like the hippocampus. Einstein's looked like someone had tried to shove far too much macaroni into a very small pot. So if you want more elbow room for your bots, choose an extraordinarily stupid subject, preferably with dendritic shrinkage already, big ventricles and a small hippo. ...Like, almost any celebrity? : ) Otherwise, why not consider designs that are long and thin? Things that could go UP axons ...Nanoworms. (Cue for a bad sci fi movie where nanoworms infest everyone's brains and the hero invents the first intrathecal anthelmintic, but cannot tell anybody because you cannot pronounce that over the telephone). ...Please accept my apologies; I have been awake for a very long time. I'll stop now. Best, AR ********************* Brett Paatsch wrote: > Hi Alex, > > Do you know how much space is between axons, dendrites, synapses on > neurons in the most densely packed part of the brain? ie how tight do > neurons pack at > their tightest and most dense? > > Reason I ask is that I think that is an important design scale > limit on any servicing/repairing nanobots that might want to get > between them. > > In actual fact I suspect that to try and get a nanobot into the > extracellular spaces between neurons may be impossible, because > the space may be > as little as 10s of nanometres in places (and the space map would be > different for every brain - more different than variations in > vasculature) and > no nanobot with a payload worth a damn could get much smaller than a > half a micron I'd guessimate. > > Cheers, > Brett > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Thu Sep 16 09:35:44 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:35:44 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) References: Message-ID: <03a301c49bd0$8a6f0150$ec202dcb@homepc> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > Brett wrote: > >You are currently located in > >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have > >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting > >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to > >be of interest to either of us. > > That is exactly right. If we assume that protecting our identities must > necessarily involve preserving our original mind processes instead of > our mind patterns, then we must expect the future cryonic revival > procedure to offer a workable process-preserving solution before > people like me can sign up. I'd also be a lot more interested then. I'd still want to know more before handing over money, but your definitions of identity don't rub the wrong way right off the bat. > Let me offer such a solution, I've been sitting on for few years > now, which is a transfer mechanism that relocates an original mind > process to various substrates. Because preserving identity-carrying > mind activity goes few steps further than what is required for > protecting a mind pattern, this new transfer postulates additional > constraints on the cryonic revival procedure. > > Unfortunately, the bad news for potential cryonic patients who > subscribe to a "true identity is defined by the uniqueness of a mind > process in space-time" view is that cryonics is almost a hopeless > technology as far as identity preservation is concerned. This is > because any reliable mind relocation method prefers not only as > little loss of mind pattern data as possible, but also, more > importantly, a mind that is able to function within the original > substrate. Ah but where some of John Clarkes objections were off base in my opinion before, they would not be in your new scenario if I understand it correctly. I am much more willing to transfer off my substrate in stages while alive, including theoretically, all the way of it altogether, in stages provided I can stay aware the whole time. After all, that IS what I have been doing all my life. New neurons growing etc. New memories forming etc. Sometimes while I slept I'd grant John but never while I was totally offline. An ANALOGY might be that I am a lot more comfortable conceptually having a new hard disk appended onto my existing substrate forming a sort of RAID array, provided the process can be done while I am still "online". I'd be willing to take some calculated risk for that sort of opportunity. But the tech is likely to be much harder and my timeframe of potential interest is someone less than my current life expectancy. Cybernetics is perhaps risky but in principle its a clear good. I'd want the option of it. > While cryonics is very much vulnerable to the loss of mind > pattern data, it is probably even more so when it's expected > to repair the original hardware to the point when the mind > process can resume its operation within that substrate. Or > maybe it's up to nanotech to fix this problem. In any case, > it seems like we're in deep trouble. Yup. But of course John C and co are right in that biology isn't exactly "hardware" anyway. > > The good news is that cryonic revival methods are not > entirely hopeless. Even though a task of reviving a mind > process within an original hardware will be incredibly hard, > it doesn't seem impossible. > > However, from a theoretical point of view, one might observe > potentially big problem. Could a mind process survive the > break in its continuity? This doesn't bother me excessively. Its a factor but I'd be willing to risk a little mental illness if I could manage the process. Heck worse case scenario I die a little sooner and/or the world would have another nut for a short time. Mental illness is not a fate worse than death. I'd dare so long as the daring was done on my terms and my timeframe. I'd also have a battery of tests I could think of to incrementally explore and manage and minimse risk. That sort of risk taking is fun and rational I reckon. > After all, a mind cannot emerge if its > hardware cannot function. It would be tempting to reason > that freezing evaporates identity, which is a property grounded > in a brain activity that would be unquestionably absent while in > a deep freeze, but the reason why this would be wrong is that, > instead of being absent, the process is merely pausing its > execution. The process survives because the hardware and > software that enable the emergence of a mind are still there > and so is the identity. > > With that out of the way, let me move on to the details of the > transfer itself. In order to successfully transplant a mind onto > a different substrate, I impose two constraints on the procedure. > > 1) Mind process must function within the original substrate. (It > doesn't have to be conscious. It just has to execute in some form). > > 2) Unity of mind must be preserved at all times. > > The first constraint might be obvious. The transfer cannot happen > without an existing process ready to be relocated. > > The second requirement constrains the way in which the shift is > to be performed to avoid creating additional copies of the mind. > > Even though cryonics deals with biological-to-artificial transfers, > for the sake of clarity, I'll assume artificial-to-artificial transfer to > better illustrate the mechanism. --------- > Two separate machines are located on different planets, and are > connected by some interplanetary, and sufficiently fast communication > link. Machine A executes some person's mind process, while > machine B consists of hardware suited to receive that mind process, > but is not running one at the moment. Then, the mind is divided into > N number of imaginary mind units. At first, machine A carries 100% > of the units, while machine B has 0%. Transfer begins by reading one > unit on A at a time and writing it to B. Then, the unit now sitting on B > gets integrated into the overall mind process. This makes the original > unit fetched from A redundant, so it is deleted. At this point, the mind > operates using N-1 units on A and 1 unit on B. The operation > progresses until 100% of mind units that used to occupy A now inhabit B. --------- Ok as an analogy. > In this way, any mind process could potentially be relocated onto any > suitable medium without the loss of identity, grounded in the mind process. > It is that grounding that allows us complete disregard for the substance of > the substrate as long as the unity of mind is maintained. Yes unity is key. > If the focus was > only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their > identity in, the second constraint would be meaningless here, (what's the > point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), > and that would lead only to logical confusion and situations where two > copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity. In the interests of communication clarity I would not agree to using identity to describe any outcome where people could talk of two contemporaneous and disconnected instances of an "identity". If there are two it is not an identity. For identity there can be only one, period. New words for types of near identity might be coined. > Obviously, the procedure present here is very strict because it shifts one > mind unit at a time and allows coexistence of only single unit across the > machines. I imagine that, in practice, whole chunks of mind units might be > allowed to coexist during the transfer because they alone wouldn't > contribute that much to the emergence of a complete and independent mind. > The second constraint prevents the procedure from creating any additional > copies of the original process because that would inevitably lead to > creation of a new mind process and, automatically, a new identity. In that > case, the procedure wouldn't result in a successful identity transfer, but > merely a birth of a perfect clone. > > The second constraint also requires the mechanism to maintain functionality > of a single mind process stretched across different platforms. It's crucial > that the one and only copy of the mind subjected to the transfer does not > degenerate into a non-mind process at any point during the relocation. > Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective > experience during the operation. Ideally, but a little "sleepiness" might be tolerable :-) > Ultimately, it's all about subjective experience. No transfer can claim to > be identity-preserving unless it guarantees the integrity and continuation > of subjective experience during a substrate switch. Yes ! > Recognizing > identity as uniqueness of mind process in space-time helps us define the > conditions necessary for subjective experience to flow between different > computational mediums. This allows us to view the mind as a physical > phenomenon and a tangible container for the seemingly intangible > subjective experience. Yes. > This, in turn gives us license to define transferring > procedures in scientific terms, i.e., measurable parameters of physical > objects. Whatever subjective experience is, mind process enables it and > that's the only thing we need to be paying attention to, confident in the > truth that as long as we preserve the physical integrity of that process, > we'll keep subjective experience intact. > > Slawomir Paliwoda Good post. Imo, you are raising the bar in terms of how you are thinking about this. Interestingly, I can see how Rafal's view (or rather his communication of it) could be reconciled with yours to some potential benefit of both your aspirations. He'd just need to acknowledge that you are using the word identity in a tighter more strict way than he is. Like a person with a rectangle recognizes that they have a rectangle and you have a square and they should not try an call it a "square". If a rectangle is all you want thats fine. If a rectangle can be achieved easier thats fine too. If something less than full identity works for you then don't pretend that it is full identity when you know it isn't going to be seen as full identity for others. To do so dumbs stuff down. Its about clarity, and politics, and communication, and truth in advertising that identity continues to mean only one. The is the sort of identity most people will relate too. That some people will settle for less than full identity preservation rather than nothing is ok but beside the point when the point when what both you and Rafal would want would be to increase the chances in the real world of satisfying both your criteria and his will be easier than yours. If Rafs vision is held up by cryonics folk as the one to try and attracts others than it will repel folk like me at the same time as it attracts folk like him and John. On the other hand if yours is held up, Raf's lower criteria is likely to fall out of a technological pipeline faster as a sort of easier prototype perhaps as more people and resources may go in pursuit of yours (assuming of course yours is not impossible - a question I've not considered in this post). Regards, Brett From velvethum at hotmail.com Wed Sep 15 17:00:08 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (s. p.) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:00:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) Message-ID: Brett wrote: >You are currently located in >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to >be of interest to either of us. That is exactly right. If we assume that preserving our identities must necessarily involve preserving our original mind processes instead of our mind patterns, then we must expect the future cryonic revival procedure to offer a workable process-preserving solution before people like me can sign up. Let me offer my solution that I've been sitting on for few years now which is a proposed transfer procedure that *translates* the original mind process onto various mind substrates. Because preserving identity-carrying mind process goes step further than what's required for preserving mind pattern, this new transfer defines additional constraints on the cryonic revival procedure. Unfortunately, the bad news for potential cryonic patients who subscribe to a "true identity is defined by a mind process in space-time" view is that cryonics is almost a hopeless technology as far as identity preservation is concerned. This is because any reliable mind process translation prefers not only as much loss of mind pattern data as possible, but also, more importantly, a mind that is able to function within the original substrate. While cryonics is very much vulnerable to the loss of mind pattern data, it is probably even more so when it's expected to repair the original mind substrate to the point when the mind process can still emerge within that substrate. Or maybe it's a nanotech problem. In any case, we're in deep trouble. The good news is that cryonic revival procedures are almost hopeless, but not entirely. Even though the procedure that requires reviving a mind process within an original substrate will be incredibly hard, it's not impossible. However, from a theoretical point of view, one might observe potentially big problem. Could mind process survive the break in its continuity? After all, mind process cannot emerge if its hardware cannot function. It would be tempting to reason that freezing evaporates identity since it is a property defined by a mind process that would be unquestionably absent while in a deep freeze, but the reason why this would be wrong is that instead of being absent, the mind process is merely pausing its execution. The process survives because the hardware and software that enable the emergence of that process are still there and so is the identity. But again, the identity is preserved because of the existing process, not the hardware and software that makes it happen. With that out of the way, let me move on to details of the transfer itself. In order for a mind process to be translated onto a different substrate, I impose two constraints on the procedure. 1) Mind process must function within the original substrate. (It doesn't have to be conscious. It just has to execute in some form). 2) Unity of the mind must be preserved at all times. The first constraint might be obvious. In order to have process transfer, the process must be there in the first place. The second constraint deals with the way in which the transfer is to be performed to avoid creating additional copies of the mind process. Even though cryonics deals with biological-to-artificial transfers, for the sake of clarity I'll assume artificial-to-artificial transfer to better illustrate the procedure. Two connected, but separate machines sit on the table. Machine A currently executes some person's mind process, while machine B consists of hardware suited to receive that mind process, but is not running one at the moment. Then, let's divide a mind into some number of imaginary mind units. At the beginning, machine A carries 100% of the mind units, while machine B has 0%. Transfer proceeds by reading one unit on A at a time and writing it to B. Then, the unit that now sits on B gets integrated into the mind process that resides on A, which makes the original unit fetched from A redundant and is deleted. The operation progresses until 100% of mind units that used to occupy A now inhabit B. In this way, any mind process could potentially be transferred onto any suitable medium without the loss of identity that must inherently be grounded in the mind process. It is that grounding in process that allows us complete disregard for the substance of the substrate as long as the unity of mind is maintained. If the focus was only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their identity in, that would lead to logical confusion because the second constraint, the unity of mind, would be meaningless in this case (what's the point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), which would, in turn, lead to cases in which we get two copies of the same data with the same identity, i.e., nonsense. Obviously, the procedure I've presented is very strict because it translates mind units one at a time and allows coexistence of only one unit across the machines. I imagine that, in practice, whole chunks of mind units might be allowed to coexist during the transfer because they wouldn't contribute that much to the emergence of a whole complete mind. The second constraint prevents the procedure from creating any additional copies of the original process because that would inevitably lead to creation of a new mind process and new identity. In that case the procedure wouldn't result in a successful identity transfer, but merely a birth of a perfect clone. The second constraint also requires the procedure to maintain functionality of the mind process stretched across different platforms. It's crucial that the one and only copy of the mind subjected to the transfer does not degenerate into a non-mind process at any point during the transfer. Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective experience during the operation. To summarize, I don't hold out much hope that cryonics will offer many identity-preserving solutions. Uploading from the "living" brain seems like the way to go. Slawomir Paliwoda _________________________________________________________________ Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to School Guide! http://special.msn.com/network/04backtoschool.armx From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 09:46:42 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:46:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] first ex-solar planet seen In-Reply-To: <20040915164705.61696.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040915164705.61696.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <508FC29A-07C5-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Hi Mike: The pdf downloads fine for me. You can picture at: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/ best, patrick On 15 Sep 2004, at 18:47, Mike Lorrey wrote: > THe images didn't load on this. > > --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > >> Hey just be clear when I said "seen" I meant "saw", as in "took a >> photo >> of" that sort of thing. Not simply, ho hum "detected". Have a look at >> >> Figure 1. >> >>> full paper: http://www.sc.eso.org/~gchauvin/Gg222.pdf > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 09:52:21 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:52:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Study Details Three Year U.S. High-Tech Job Bust Message-ID: High-Tech Cities See No Job Growth, High Unemployment Seattle, Wash--- A new report by the Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois, Chicago, shows that U.S. high-technology workers are still facing chronic unemployment and a serious jobs deficit despite an economic recovery being declared three years ago. The report, entitled "America's High-Tech Bust," found that the U.S. high-tech economy continued to lose a whopping 200,000 jobs after the recession was declared over in November 2001 by the National Bureau of Economic Research. Full report: The employment situation is particularly bleak in the San Francisco PMSA, which witnessed a 49% job loss between March 2001 and April 2004 and a 25% job loss post-November 2001 Significant post-recession job losses also occurred in other regions with a large IT industry presence. San Jose and Boston lost 14,000 and 12,200 jobs, respectively between the official end of the recession in November 2001 and April 2004. Chicago and Dallas each lost about 10,000 jobs during this period, and Seattle has lost 6,300 IT industry jobs since the beginning of the recession and 1,700 jobs post-recession. Washington, D.C. is the only metropolitan area in the dataset, which despite losing 8,300 jobs during the recession, added 4,100 new jobs after the end of the recession. While there is a lack of current and reliable information on the extent of job losses due to offshore outsourcing, there is little doubt that it has contributed to soaring unemployment rates in the industry. For instance, UIC-CUED analysis of the Current Population Survey reveals that national unemployment rates for computer programmers was 6.7% in 2003, two years after the end of the recession, compared to 2.5% in 2001. Incidentally, computer programming is also one of the top occupations sent offshore (ITAA, 2003). Marcus Courtney, president of WashTech, noted that only a few years ago, the high-tech economy in the U.S. was the most dynamic sector and touted as the new economy that was going to be the backbone of job creation for the future as the nation moved away from its manufacturing roots. "It is stunning to think that in every region of the country, we have fewer high-tech jobs today than we did three years ago. We must focus on exporting our products instead of our jobs to turn this critical situation around." BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 10:05:18 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 03:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] IEEE Spectrum on aging: Why We Fall Apart Message-ID: <20040916100518.53666.qmail@web50804.mail.yahoo.com> >From IEEE Spectrum: The problem is that our bodies deteriorate with age. For most of our lives, the risk of death is increasing exponentially, doubling every eight years. So, why do we fall apart, and what can we do about it? Many scientists now believe that, for the first time in human history, we have developed a sophisticated enough understanding of the nature of human aging to begin seriously planning ways to defeat it. These scientists are working from a simple but compelling notion: the body, far from being a perfect creation, is a failure-prone, defect-ridden machine formed through the stochastic process of biological evolution. In this view, we can be further improved through genetic engineering and be better maintained through preventive, regenerative, and antiaging medicine and by repairing and replacing worn-out body parts. In short, the rate at which we fall apart could be decreased, maybe even to a negligible level... Finally, we could learn to replace our damaged organs, substituting the young and healthy for the old and failing. Many researchers now believe that one day the human life span could be greatly extended by replenishing aging organs with stem cells. We are just now starting down this road. Such regenerative medicine and tissue engineering may sound like science fiction, but a growing number of scientists are taking the first steps to grow tissues and organs to replace failed ones. Laboratories around the world are making progress in building replacement lung, kidney, liver, and heart tissue. http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904age.html From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 12:57:36 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:57:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Mature rationality In-Reply-To: <20040915125218.22200.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916125736.67178.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> It is true the young generally find life dull in the jobs, families, communities and states you refer to, but don't 'older folks' (middle-aged & elderly) often enjoy the dull routines? Don't many older folks often find dull routines to be reassuring, and don't they sometimes find excitement to be disorienting, even enervating? >what would otherwise be an > incredibly dull life in some dull job and dull > family and dull > community in a dull nanny-state that wants to take > care of you from > cradle to grave (except of course when you are > getting mugged). That > such individuals have been bred that way by a > pathetic public education > system, and public welfare system is another issue > entirely, but > irrational government will create an irrational > society. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From velvethum at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 13:44:13 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:44:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Identity Transfer (Re: A view on cryonics) References: <03a301c49bd0$8a6f0150$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: > > If the focus was > > only on mind pattern, which so many people are happy to ground their > > identity in, the second constraint would be meaningless here, (what's the > > point of maintaining unity of mind if all we care for is the data itself), > > and that would lead only to logical confusion and situations where two > > copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity. > > In the interests of communication clarity I would not agree to using > identity to describe any outcome where people could talk of two > contemporaneous and disconnected instances of an "identity". If there > are two it is not an identity. For identity there can be only one, period. There can only be one identity. That's why "situations where two copies of the same data might be assigned the same identity" are logically confusing and unacceptable. > > Ideally, a person shouldn't sustain any degradation in his subjective > > experience during the operation. > > Ideally, but a little "sleepiness" might be tolerable :-) Sure. > Interestingly, I can see how Rafal's view (or rather his communication of > it) could be reconciled with yours to some potential benefit of both your > aspirations. He'd just need to acknowledge that you are using the word > identity in a tighter more strict way than he is. Like a person with a > rectangle > recognizes that they have a rectangle and you have a square and they > should not try an call it a "square". In my reply to Rafal's post, I've identified the source of our disagreement and it stems from our definition of what mind is. He, and majority of people who think about PI, view the mind as a pattern while I see it as a process. He doesn't say it explicitly, but that's exactly what he means. His concept of identity is more concerned with questions like, "Who are you?", rather than, "What, where and when are you?" which is what I'm interested in. > If something less than > full identity works for you then don't pretend that it is full identity when > you know it isn't going to be seen as full identity for others. To do so > dumbs stuff down. Exactly. Definitions of identity shouldn't be opinions. Identity is what it is and we're allowed to have different emotional responses to how we feel about preserving it, but this doesn't change its nature. One person might say he doesn't like yellow, while someone else loves it. However, a definition of yellow can't be "the color I like", or " the color I don't like". And you definitely shouldn't hope to get any respect if you dare to publically claim that yellow doesn't exist. At least when I'm that audience. :) > If Rafs vision is held up by cryonics folk as the one to try and attracts > others than it will repel folk like me at the same time as it attracts folk > like him and John. On the other hand if yours is held up, Raf's lower > criteria is likely to fall out of a technological pipeline faster as a sort > of easier prototype perhaps as more people and resources may go > in pursuit of yours (assuming of course yours is not impossible - a > question I've not considered in this post). Yes. Anything less than a successful subjective experience transplant is, IMO, simply death. All I hope for is that we don't get stuck with some memory transfer procedure, advertised as "identity-preserving", as the only option available. Slawomir From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 15:52:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique Message-ID: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit prime found in consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the problem is an IP address to a site that asks another problem, and so on until the smart problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... Apparently we don't have to show our work on these problems. Anybody want to collaborate? ;) To figure out this problem, you first need a list of all 10 digit primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of it, incremented one digit at a time, then compare. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From jonkc at att.net Thu Sep 16 16:02:46 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:02:46 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: Message-ID: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> "s. p." > Brett at 10 years old is the same at 20 because his mind process > never degenerated into, one, non-mind process Not true, when Brett sleeps his conscious mind stops and if he has ever had surgery and anesthesia even his unconscious mind stopped. > He is the same because his mind process has been carving > out the same, uninterupted line of three-dimensional chunks > in space-time. Space-time is 4 dimensional, and the perfect copy Brett in no more uninterrupted than the Brett who awoke after receiving anesthesia. > Memories/experiences aqcuired throughout person's life do not define > identity. They do define his personality and psychological make-up, > not his identity. If you?re correct and neither memory nor personality defines identity then the only conclusion to draw is that the TV preachers are correct and we have a soul. If I thought that was true I?d burn my science books, buy some saffron robes and become a monk; I don?t have plans to do that in the immediate future. Thought Experiment: You and your exact copy are standing an equal distance from the center of a symmetrical room. I now claim to have instantly swapped the location of you and the copy. There is no way an outside observer can detect any objective change, there is no way you can detect any subjective change, and there is no way for you to prove that my claim to have made the swap is true or not. So we have something that has no objective effect, no subjective effect, and there is no way to disprove the thing. I conclude that this is not a scientific question. If you're still right then you're talking about a soul. I don't find souls useful. >> Me: >> there is no way to prove that you are not a copy of the original > Yes, there is. One day you bump into somebody who looks exactly like you, you start to speak to him but are distracted because he is also speaking and saying the same thing you are in perfect synchronization. Three questions: 1) Prove to me that you are the original and not the copy. 2) If you can?t do that (and you can?t) then show, at least to yourself, that you are probably the original and not the copy. 3) If you can?t do either of the above (and you can?t) then who cares if you?re the original or the copy? > Identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in space-time. > There's room for only one mind process in the fabric of space time. Or what, they both get swallowed by a black hole or something? That may be your definition of identity but the laws of Physics don?t even hint at such a thing. > If you value living then you should care because if the original you gets > killed, the film ends, and you won't live, even though your clones might. I?ve had this discussion many times before and for some reason in these thought experiments people always always always assume they are ?The Original? and look at it from only that viewpoint, just once pretend you?re ?the copy? and get a different perspective. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 16:24:23 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:24:23 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204091609245dd1d72a@mail.gmail.com> Fun. I am sure there must be a simpler and smarter way, for example using a list of .com domain names and looking for a consecutive string of 10 numbers (ten characters excluding a-z and dash). If the list is sorted alphabetically the check could even be done by eyes. G. On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 08:52:52 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) > > To figure out this problem, you first need a list of all 10 digit > primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of it, incremented one > digit at a time, then compare. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 16:28:38 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:28:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so > on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) > > To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > all 10 digit > primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > it, incremented one > digit at a time, then compare. They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while ago. For something like this, someone else has solved the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so you can simply google for the final answer (the page which asks for your resume). From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 16:35:07 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:35:07 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5ED0AE3E-07FE-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> My quick search only came up with this: http://216.239.59.57/ which gives a 502 error to Google... best, patrick On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 >> >> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit >> prime found in >> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the >> problem is an IP >> address to a site that asks another problem, and so >> on until the smart >> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... >> >> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these >> problems. Anybody >> want to collaborate? ;) >> >> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of >> all 10 digit >> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of >> it, incremented one >> digit at a time, then compare. > > They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while > ago. For something like this, someone else has solved > the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so > you can simply google for the final answer (the page > which asks for your resume). > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dwish at indco.net Thu Sep 16 16:39:41 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:39:41 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916162838.1207.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409161552.i8GFqBS9019422@br549.indconet.com> Already applied...lol Goto Linux.org and login with Bobsyouruncle and 5966290435 as password Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 11:29 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so > on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) > > To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > all 10 digit > primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > it, incremented one > digit at a time, then compare. They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while ago. For something like this, someone else has solved the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so you can simply google for the final answer (the page which asks for your resume). _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 16:49:06 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <5ED0AE3E-07FE-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, it's currently getting slashdotted to death... --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > My quick search only came up with this: > > http://216.239.59.57/ > > which gives a 502 error to Google... > > best, patrick > > > On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > >> > >> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > >> prime found in > >> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > >> problem is an IP > >> address to a site that asks another problem, and so > >> on until the smart > >> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > >> > >> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > >> problems. Anybody > >> want to collaborate? ;) > >> > >> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > >> all 10 digit > >> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > >> it, incremented one > >> digit at a time, then compare. > > > > They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while > > ago. For something like this, someone else has solved > > the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so > > you can simply google for the final answer (the page > > which asks for your resume). > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 16:55:03 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:55:03 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Is that the correct answer? Wow. That would be cool. best, patrick On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:49, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Yeah, it's currently getting slashdotted to death... > > --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > >> My quick search only came up with this: >> >> http://216.239.59.57/ >> >> which gives a 502 error to Google... >> >> best, patrick >> >> >> On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >>> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >>>> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 >>>> >>>> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit >>>> prime found in >>>> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the >>>> problem is an IP >>>> address to a site that asks another problem, and so >>>> on until the smart >>>> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... >>>> >>>> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these >>>> problems. Anybody >>>> want to collaborate? ;) >>>> >>>> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of >>>> all 10 digit >>>> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of >>>> it, incremented one >>>> digit at a time, then compare. >>> >>> They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while >>> ago. For something like this, someone else has solved >>> the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so >>> you can simply google for the final answer (the page >>> which asks for your resume). >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From joe at barrera.org Thu Sep 16 17:07:28 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:07:28 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> Patrick Wilken wrote: > Is that the correct answer? Wow. That would be cool. This is where you're supposed to end up. Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. - Joe From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Thu Sep 16 17:13:33 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:13:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> Message-ID: Having checked the answer using a quick Google search, I realize that my answer is only a 10-digit prime IP address for Google , not the correct answer. Sigh. Back the being a psychologist. best, patrick On 16 Sep 2004, at 19:07, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > Patrick Wilken wrote: > >> Is that the correct answer? Wow. That would be cool. > > This is where you're supposed to end up. > > > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > - Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 17:15:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <5ED0AE3E-07FE-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Cause that isn't the right answer, it turns out. Doing the right googling will turn up the answer and the answer to the second problem as well... While they surely wanted to increase their signal to noise ratio, I'm also wondering if they wanted to advertise the use of google for such filtering, or wanted people to use google to dig up the answers... I suppose there is something to be said for not reinventing the wheel. http://www.mkaz.com/math/google/ This site has the right answers, for which the author did the grunt work. --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > My quick search only came up with this: > > http://216.239.59.57/ > > which gives a 502 error to Google... > > best, patrick > > > On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > >> > >> A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit > >> prime found in > >> consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the > >> problem is an IP > >> address to a site that asks another problem, and so > >> on until the smart > >> problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > >> > >> Apparently we don't have to show our work on these > >> problems. Anybody > >> want to collaborate? ;) > >> > >> To figure out this problem, you first need a list of > >> all 10 digit > >> primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of > >> it, incremented one > >> digit at a time, then compare. > > > > They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while > > ago. For something like this, someone else has solved > > the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so > > you can simply google for the final answer (the page > > which asks for your resume). > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 16 17:16:04 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:16:04 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org Message-ID: <181790-22004941617164948@M2W103.mail2web.com> Re: http://www.moveon.org Can any tell us about this organization? Thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 17:30:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <181790-22004941617164948@M2W103.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040916173004.4124.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > Re: http://www.moveon.org > > Can any tell us about this organization? Funded by George Soros anti-gun anti-free-speech pro-socialist nuff said. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 17:43:12 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:43:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <181790-22004941617164948@M2W103.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040916174312.30796.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You can see from their site that Moveon was founded by two silicon valley entrepreneurs who were "fed up with the impeachment mess" of 1998, and who want to empower 'ordinary people'; naturally, a populist concept. They are active in supporting Kerry for president, which is praiseworthy. However, designations such as 'ordinary people', 'the people', 'the masses', 'just plain folks', 'the man on the street', 'the average person', don't mean much. How many 'average' or 'ordinary' people do you know? --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > Re: http://www.moveon.org > > Can any tell us about this organization? > > Thanks, > Natasha > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From velvethum at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 17:33:31 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:33:31 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: > > Brett at 10 years old is the same at 20 because his mind process > > never degenerated into, one, non-mind process > > Not true, when Brett sleeps his conscious mind stops and if he has ever had > surgery and anesthesia even his unconscious mind stopped. Identity doesn't evaporate even when mind process stops. It vanishes only when mind process is destroyed. Pausing process' activity is not the same as destroying it. But this is about halting a process, and my quote above was about degeneration of a mind into a non-mind process. > > Memories/experiences aqcuired throughout person's life do not define > > identity. They do define his personality and psychological make-up, > > not his identity. > > If you?re correct and neither memory nor personality defines identity then > the only conclusion to draw is that the TV preachers are correct and we > have a soul. I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but even if one can conclude from this that people have souls, this is definitely not the *only* conclusion that we can draw here. Much more effective alternative is to focus on subjective experience because that's the only thing that stays the same throughout memory fluctuations or changes in personality. I want people to think about identity from the perspective of subjective experience rather than from the perspective of memories and personalities. > Thought Experiment: > > You and your exact copy are standing an equal distance from the center of a > symmetrical room. I now claim to have instantly swapped the location of you > and the copy. There is no way an outside observer can detect any objective > change, there is no way you can detect any subjective change, and there is > no way for you to prove that my claim to have made the swap is true or not. > So we have something that has no objective effect, no subjective effect, and > there is no way to disprove the thing. I conclude that this is not a > scientific question. If you're still right then you're talking about a soul. > I don't find souls useful. The error in your reasoning is the phrase "instantly swapped the location of you and the copy". You can't just "instantly" swap matter in space-time. The only way by which the switch can be performed is by taking an object and transport it to another location. This action, however, will carve a unique trajectory in space-time. Because there can only be one and only one such trajectory, it is possible to track the identity of any object. > >> Me: > >> there is no way to prove that you are not a copy of the original > > > Yes, there is. > > One day you bump into somebody who looks exactly like you, you start to > speak to him but are distracted because he is also speaking and saying the > same thing you are in perfect synchronization. Three questions: > > 1) Prove to me that you are the original and not the copy. Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. Threrefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting the log detailing locations of my mind in space and time, which will show different values for x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who claims to be me. As long as I can show that the set of space-time position parameters for any two minds never share the same exact values, I will always be able to prove identity of any mind. > > Identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in space-time. > > There's room for only one mind process in the fabric of space time. > > Or what, they both get swallowed by a black hole or something? That may be > your definition of identity but the laws of Physics don?t even hint at such > a thing. My point is that two *different* objects cannot occupy the same location in space and time. This is why you don't get killed crossing the street by a car that was going 60mph through that crossing 2 years ago. Slawomir From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 16 18:01:41 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:01:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916180141.93199.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > While they surely wanted to increase their signal to > noise ratio, I'm > also wondering if they wanted to advertise the use > of google for such > filtering, or wanted people to use google to dig up > the answers... I > suppose there is something to be said for not > reinventing the wheel. I think googling for the answer would be "cheating", in terms of their original problem. OTOH, it is the type of non-standard-yet-more-effective thinking they claim to be looking for - at least, at first. Now that the problem's been around long enough that people can be advised to google for the answer...well, that kind of defeats this class of problem. (Even if they come up with new problems, the strategy of waiting for others to post the answer - whether or not Google says not to post the answer - remains valid and possibly well-known, not requiring original thinking to conceive of.) From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 18:11:33 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:11:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916173004.4124.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Moveon is certainly anti-gun, and they did support the new campaign finance law, but it is somewhat of an exaggeration to dismiss them as "pro-socialist". You might call them 'Third-Wayers'. Oh, they are sympathetic to socialism, but a goo goo socialist is not one and the same with a bona fide socialist. As you well know, neither is a libertarian an anarchist. A Marxist might be sympathetic to communism without actually being a communist. A reactionary economist might be slightly sympathetic to totalitarian corporatism without actually being any sort of a fascist (incidentally, most people to this day think Francisco Franco was a fascist, when he in reality was a Monarchist). Every time a liberal appears on television there are millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', 'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > anti-gun > anti-free-speech > pro-socialist > > nuff said. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:44:22 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:44:22 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040916173004.4124.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:11:33 +0100 (BST), Trend Ologist wrote: > Every time a liberal appears on television there are > millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', > 'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > Long article from LA Weekly Aug 6, 2004, about MoveOn: On-line Activist Left organisation. Quotes from the article: A few more clicks and you can sign petitions to Congress protesting the war, the Clean Air Act and the No Child Left Behind Act. You can demand that President Bush be censured, call for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation, and urge Congress and the FTC to revoke Fox News' right to use "Fair and Balanced" as its slogan. MoveOn now has 2.2 million members in the U.S. (registration is free), with another 800,000 or so abroad. Along with partisan documentary films such as Fahrenheit 9/11 and Robert Greenwald's new Outfoxed, both of which MoveOn has stumped for, it's all part of a giant, perhaps unprecedented effort by the country's intellectual and artistic communities to unseat the conspicuously unintellectual, inartistic man in the Oval Office. MoveOn certainly isn't the only reason for the flowering of Democratic activism ? perceptions about Bush and the war are responsible for much of it ? but the combination has created something entirely new: a left-wing electoral body that is turning out en masse for a mainstream Democratic candidate. The kind of people who might once have worked for Eugene McCarthy and Robert Kennedy and George McGovern ? men they would have truly admired ? are now working even more passionately for John Kerry, whom they mock for being a bore and sounding like a Republican. BillK From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 18:39:19 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:39:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org Message-ID: Can't you be a fascist and a monarchist? They don't seem exclusive to me. Wasn't Hitler a democratist and a fascist? BAL >From: Trend Ologist >To: ExI chat list , >natashavita at earthlink.net >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org >Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:11:33 +0100 (BST) > >Moveon is certainly anti-gun, and they did support the >new campaign finance law, but it is somewhat of an >exaggeration to dismiss them as "pro-socialist". You >might call them 'Third-Wayers'. Oh, they are >sympathetic to socialism, but a goo goo socialist is >not one and the same with a bona fide socialist. As >you well know, neither is a libertarian an anarchist. >A Marxist might be sympathetic to communism without >actually being a communist. A reactionary economist >might be slightly sympathetic to totalitarian >corporatism without actually being any sort of a >fascist (incidentally, most people to this day think >Francisco Franco was a fascist, when he in reality was >a Monarchist). >Every time a liberal appears on television there are >millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', >'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > > > > anti-gun > > anti-free-speech > > pro-socialist > > > > nuff said. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William > > Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William > > Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! >Messenger - all new features - even more fun! >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From eliasen at mindspring.com Thu Sep 16 19:12:36 2004 From: eliasen at mindspring.com (Alan Eliasen) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:12:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040916171527.47799.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4149E5A4.3070704@mindspring.com> I have a very simple Frink ( http://futureboy.homeip.net/frinkdocs/ ) program that does the "grunt" work. I wrote it a few months ago when the billboard first came out. It probably took all of 5 minutes (4 of which were spent finding a decimal expansion of e just to make it easier. Frink could have calculated that, too.) I don't want to release it to the world, but here's a hint: four built-in functions that are useful: e = read["file:///...."] (reads e from a file) substrLen(e, n, 10) (returns 10 characters from point n in a string.) parseInt[s] (parses an string to an integer, or use eval[]) isPrime[x] (Rabin-Miller prime test.) The "for" loop and assignments are left to the reader. -- Alan Eliasen | "Whenever you find you are on the side of eliasen at mindspring.com | the majority, it is time to pause and http://futureboy.homeip.net/ | reflect." --Mark Twain Mike Lorrey wrote: > Cause that isn't the right answer, it turns out. > > Doing the right googling will turn up the answer and the answer to the > second problem as well... > > While they surely wanted to increase their signal to noise ratio, I'm > also wondering if they wanted to advertise the use of google for such > filtering, or wanted people to use google to dig up the answers... I > suppose there is something to be said for not reinventing the wheel. > > http://www.mkaz.com/math/google/ > > This site has the right answers, for which the author did the grunt > work. > > --- Patrick Wilken wrote: > > >>My quick search only came up with this: >> >>http://216.239.59.57/ >> >>which gives a 502 error to Google... >> >>best, patrick >> >> >>On 16 Sep 2004, at 18:28, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >> >>>--- Mike Lorrey wrote: >>> >>>>http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 >>>> >>>>A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit >>>>prime found in >>>>consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the >>>>problem is an IP >>>>address to a site that asks another problem, and so >>>>on until the smart >>>>problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... >>>> >>>>Apparently we don't have to show our work on these >>>>problems. Anybody >>>>want to collaborate? ;) >>>> >>>>To figure out this problem, you first need a list of >>>>all 10 digit >>>>primes. Then you take e and make 10 digit chunks of >>>>it, incremented one >>>>digit at a time, then compare. >>> >>>They had this billboard up in Silicon Valley a while >>>ago. For something like this, someone else has solved >>>the problem and posted the solution to the Web - so >>>you can simply google for the final answer (the page >>>which asks for your resume). >>>_______________________________________________ >>>extropy-chat mailing list >>>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 19:45:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:45:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > Can't you be a fascist and a monarchist? They don't seem exclusive to > me. Wasn't Hitler a democratist and a fascist? Socialist and fascist (hence the term "National Socialist Workers Party"). There tends to be hostility, resentment, and conflict between groups in the same political arena that espouse nationalist vs internationalist versions of their philosophy, as well as between factions arguing about forced imposition of policies vs consensus/conversion/evolution of policy. It is happening today in the GOP, the DNC, and the LP. It happened between the Nationalist Stalinists and the Internationalist Trotskyists. This might hint that the old Nolan chart should also have a third axis focused on foreign policy, ranging from interventionist to isolationist. Perhaps another focusing on whether individuals should right their own wrongs or rely on the state to do it for them. While we can quibble over who is or is not a socialist or a libertarian (an anarchist is a libertarian but a libertarian is not necessarily an anarchist) the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for the partial or full nationalization of one or more sectors of our economy which have traditionally been mostly or solely private enterprise driven. These include health care, firearms, the media, securities markets, transportation and real estate. That is a very significantly socialist agenda that would move this country 50%-75% of the way to a socialist state. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 20:12:53 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:12:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040916181133.22538.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Every time a liberal appears on television there are > millions of conservatives yelling 'socialist', > 'pinko', or even 'Commie!' at the screen. > I agree. People always like to classify people into groups. Leftists call me "fascist" while right-wingers call me "liberal" when in fact, I am a psuedo libertarian minarchist atheist social utilitarian that prefers a strong defense. I think this comes from the human desire to classify all things into groups, combined with the need to exaggerate to make a point. Lack of education makes it worse, since the less educated aren;t even aware of how many "groups" there are. They are forced to place many people into one group even though the people in those groups may have enough differences to cause them to start killing each other. This is why most Americans place all people of middle-eastern descent into a single group called "rag-heads" even though shi'ite muslims and sunnis are different enough to kill each other over it. Just remember, conservatives aren;t the only ones guilty of this kind of behavior. :-) From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 16 20:18:42 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 16:18:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org Message-ID: <199550-220049416201842596@M2W063.mail2web.com> From: Bill Thanks Bill for providing specific information. Too Bernhard is a lousy journalist and known to make up information and even, from time to time, lie. So, who is to believe him? Long article from LA Weekly Aug 6, 2004, about MoveOn: Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 20:39:51 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:39:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040916203951.7834.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Americans are so rebellious that any attempt at nationalisation, any attempt at 50%-75% socialisation, would bring about a reaction. At this very moment you can be utterly certain the Rush Limbaughs of America are sharpening their knives in preparation for the possible election of Kerry just as they did in September of 1992 when Clinton was running for president. These matters are almost routine by now. If Kerry wins he would next year propose a health care plan which would be whittled down to a mere shadow of itself, as was done to HillaryCare in 1993. Don't you know how powerful the right wing in America is? This nation was set up by the Founders to have the Tories, Federalists, Whigs, and then finally the Democrats & Republicans at each others' political throats. It does not appear at this time that any form of socialism will come about in America in our lifetimes, and by the time socialism were to be feasible it would be outmoded. > the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for > the partial or > full nationalization of one or more sectors of our > economy which have > traditionally been mostly or solely private > enterprise driven. These > include health care, firearms, the media, securities > markets, > transportation and real estate. That is a very > significantly socialist > agenda that would move this country 50%-75% of the > way to a socialist state. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 16 20:43:49 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:43:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <20040916155252.92981.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c49c2d$e5403bf0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Mike I solved both levels within four days of the appearance of the billboard a couple of months ago in Mountain View. Solutions available upon request. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Mike Lorrey > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:53 AM > To: extropy-chat at extropy.org > Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique > > > http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3916173 > > A billboard in Boston says "{the first 10 digit prime found in > consecutive digits of e}.com" The answer to the problem is an IP > address to a site that asks another problem, and so on until the smart > problem solver is asked for his or her resume.... > > Apparently we don't have to show our work on these problems. Anybody > want to collaborate? ;) From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 16 20:55:16 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:55:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040916205516.88508.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the choice for Kerry earlier this year. To think at one time the electorate actually had to think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough choice. But son of Bush? Hell no. >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > guilty of this kind of > behavior. :-) ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From zahiralpaslan at yahoo.com Thu Sep 16 20:55:37 2004 From: zahiralpaslan at yahoo.com (Zahir Y. Alpaslan) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] EVOLVING PERCEPTION: TIME, SPACE AND THE HUMAN BODY Message-ID: <20040916205537.39139.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> I just got an email about this event, if you are living in Los Angeles area you can go to USC Health Sciences Campus to view. EVOLVING PERCEPTION: TIME, SPACE AND THE HUMAN BODY Sponsored by USC IGM Art Gallery and Friends of the IGM Every day from Fri, September 10, 2004 through Sun, October 31, 2004 from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm Admission: Free Institute for Genetic Medicine (IGM) CSC 240 Health Sciences Campus Six revolutionary artists utilize cutting edge, hi-tech tools to explore the way in which modern electronic technology changes perceptions about time and space in an industrialized society. Each piece of art requires a computer to either produce or present the work. Exhibited along side classic prints and sculptures, this installation - representing the work of artists Lev Manovich, Mark Meadows, Marcos Novak, Shelby Ring, Nathan Shedroff and Bob Sturm - includes a volumetric display, networked ocean buoys, computer screens and music. In addition to the exhibit and physical installations, artists and community leaders present discussions on the work and motivations. More Information: http://www.usc.edu/igm lcrandall at att.net 310-479-1817 Zahir Zahir YILMAZ Alpaslan www.zahiralpaslan.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 16 20:57:04 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 13:57:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c49c2f$b9078410$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > ...urge Congress and the FTC to revoke Fox News' right > to use "Fair and Balanced" as its slogan. By all means let us promote CBS. I never thought I would see the day when Dan Rather's credibility fell well below that of his rival Geraldo Rivera. spike From jef at jefallbright.net Thu Sep 16 21:17:30 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 14:17:30 -0700 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > >I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but even if one can conclude >from this that people have souls, this is definitely not the *only* >conclusion that we can draw here. Much more effective alternative is to >focus on subjective experience because that's the only thing that stays the >same throughout memory fluctuations or changes in personality. I want people >to think about identity from the perspective of subjective experience rather >than from the perspective of memories and personalities. > > > Key point: Subjective experience certainly does not "stay the same" in any measurable sense. Subjective experience is highly malleable, subject to gaps, distortions, and revisions. The conceptual difficulty is because the only way we have to interrogate subjective experience is via the same mechanism that creates the illusion that it is whole and continuous. This is the crux of the endless debate about qualia, the so-called "hard problem of consciousness", and personal identity. Descartes was fundamentally mistaken. - Jef From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Thu Sep 16 23:02:43 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Alexander Lee) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:02:43 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: But socialism and democracy aren't exclusive either so Hitler could have been a fascist, democratic socialist. BAL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > --- Brian Lee wrote: > >> Can't you be a fascist and a monarchist? They don't seem exclusive to >> me. Wasn't Hitler a democratist and a fascist? > > Socialist and fascist (hence the term "National Socialist Workers > Party"). > > There tends to be hostility, resentment, and conflict between groups in > the same political arena that espouse nationalist vs internationalist > versions of their philosophy, as well as between factions arguing about > forced imposition of policies vs consensus/conversion/evolution of > policy. It is happening today in the GOP, the DNC, and the LP. > > It happened between the Nationalist Stalinists and the Internationalist > Trotskyists. > > This might hint that the old Nolan chart should also have a third axis > focused on foreign policy, ranging from interventionist to > isolationist. Perhaps another focusing on whether individuals should > right their own wrongs or rely on the state to do it for them. > > While we can quibble over who is or is not a socialist or a libertarian > (an anarchist is a libertarian but a libertarian is not necessarily an > anarchist) the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for the partial or > full nationalization of one or more sectors of our economy which have > traditionally been mostly or solely private enterprise driven. These > include health care, firearms, the media, securities markets, > transportation and real estate. That is a very significantly socialist > agenda that would move this country 50%-75% of the way to a socialist > state. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dwish at indco.net Thu Sep 16 23:37:03 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:37:03 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c2f$b9078410$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <200409162249.i8GMneS9030567@br549.indconet.com> Maybe someone should hit him with a chair....lol Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Spike Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:57 PM To: 'BillK'; 'ExI chat list' Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > ...urge Congress and the FTC to revoke Fox News' right > to use "Fair and Balanced" as its slogan. By all means let us promote CBS. I never thought I would see the day when Dan Rather's credibility fell well below that of his rival Geraldo Rivera. spike _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dwish at indco.net Thu Sep 16 23:47:04 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:47:04 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916205516.88508.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409162259.i8GMxgS9030700@br549.indconet.com> I think Kerry's position on Gay's is that he supports gays but not really their right to marry but maybe be together like being married but not really being married but maybe. As for stem cell research, Bush ever said he didn't support it, just that he is protective of the unborn being harvested to supplied the rich guy in the Hamptons a new business model, abortion clinic/stem cell center and all on tax payer dollars. I do think the private sector is doing great without help from the government and regulations that would go along with it. I think most people should take a good and cautious look at the possible problems with the issue before jumping up, taking a sign, and marching down the street. Besides these days they may throw you in jail or worse...Wait you think they monitor these emails...lol Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Trend Ologist Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the choice for Kerry earlier this year. To think at one time the electorate actually had to think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough choice. But son of Bush? Hell no. >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > guilty of this kind of > behavior. :-) ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 00:04:11 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:04:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <200409162259.i8GMxgS9030700@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <20040917000411.32311.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You could very well be correct concerning Bush's position on stem cell research, but any positions Kerry might have taken or will take before the election against the rights or prerogatives of gays can be automatically discounted; after the election it's a different ball game. If a true liberal, and Kerry is a real liberal with an ADA rating of 92, says he is opposed to any gay activist position, he or she is almost certainly being disingenuous. Do you expect Kerry to say he unequivocably advocates gay marriage in a nation as conservative as America? America is not the Netherlands. > I think Kerry's position on Gay's is that he > supports gays but not really > their right to marry but maybe be together like > being married but not really > being married but maybe. As for stem cell research, > Bush ever said he didn't > support it, just that he is protective of the unborn > being harvested to > supplied the rich guy in the Hamptons a new business > model, abortion > clinic/stem cell center and all on tax payer > dollars. I do think the private > sector is doing great without help from the > government and regulations that > would go along with it. I think most people should > take a good and cautious > look at the possible problems with the issue before > jumping up, taking a > sign, and marching down the street. Besides these > days they may throw you in > jail or worse...Wait you think they monitor these > emails...lol > > Dustin Wish > System Engineer & Programmer > INDCO Networks > Pres. OSSRI > ******************************************************** > "Do not go where the path may lead, go instead > where there is no path and leave a trail." > Ralph Waldo Emerson (1803-1882) > *********************************************** > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On > Behalf Of Trend Ologist > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry > because > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. > The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): > easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the > choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the > choice for Kerry earlier this year. > To think at one time the electorate actually had to > think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson > versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough > choice. > But son of Bush? Hell no. > > >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > > guilty of this kind of > > behavior. :-) > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW > Yahoo! > Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 00:08:09 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:38:09 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> Message-ID: <710b78fc04091617086c605a52@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 10:07:28 -0700, Joseph S. Barrera III wrote: > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. Why do you say that? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > - Joe From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 01:00:05 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917000411.32311.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > You could very well be correct concerning Bush's > position on stem cell research, but any positions > Kerry might have taken or will take before the > election against the rights or prerogatives of gays > can be automatically discounted; after the election > it's a different ball game. > If a true liberal, and Kerry is a real liberal with > an ADA rating of 92, says he is opposed to any gay > activist position, he or she is almost certainly being > disingenuous. > Do you expect Kerry to say he unequivocably advocates > gay marriage in a nation as conservative as America? > America is not the Netherlands. No it isn't, and as much as I support the right of individuals to self determine, marriage is not an issue the federal government has any Constitutional authority to legislate about, pro or con. It is a state issue. Nor are proponents of gay marriage honest about what they really want. You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social security benefits inheritance. Now if people really wanted to fix THAT, the right and libertarian thing to do would be to end social security inheritance for everybody. That would probably save social security too ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From joe at barrera.org Fri Sep 17 01:33:06 2004 From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:33:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04091617086c605a52@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040916164906.49635.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <2782BEA6-0801-11D9-951A-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> <4149C850.6090109@barrera.org> <710b78fc04091617086c605a52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> Emlyn wrote: > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > Why do you say that? I interviewed there twice. I was completely and totally unimpressed with the interview process. I'm a systems-level programmer with a lot of experience on Windows. My resume makes that pretty clear with many concrete examples. For my first interview, everyone to interview me was a GUI programmer... because of course Windows means GUI. No. So I spoke to the HR person and tried to clarify what my background was. My second interview was with Linux kernel hackers who wanted to know if I knew exactly what data structures Linux used to implement TCP. (Now I have hacked kernels, but mostly Mach and BSD, at the VM and IPC and filesystem levels, not networking.) Maybe once you get past the interview stage, things are wonderful. But the impression I got of the place was of complete disorganization and unprofessionalism. Maybe I've been in industry for too long and away from graduate school for too long. Maybe they would have been a great place to work for straight out of grad school. But over time I've moved from working in fun research labs that produced little of use, to working in startups which are clearly focused on specific goals. So in summary: I'm just too old and crotchety :-) - Joe From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 17 01:47:36 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:47:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040916194500.96116.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/16/04 12:45) Mike Lorrey wrote: > the fact is that MoveOn.Org advocates for the partial or >full nationalization of one or more sectors of our economy And they're campaigning against an administration that has done more to curtail our civil liberties and to institute a de facto Christian theocracy in this country than any 20th century administration. Go them! (Hint: Remember that on the Nolan chart, both the liberals and the conservatives each have "half of libertarianism." Considering how badly the House Republicans have fscked up the federal budget, I see no real difference between them and the so-called tax-and-spend Democrats. With that axis of the Nolan chart is out of play, the Democrats as the only real choice in this election.) Also, one thing that BillK implied, but didn't outright say, about MoveOn is that they have made an interesting experiment in decentralized fundraising efforts - essentially trying to perfect what the Dean campaign clumsily tried to accomplish. That, in and of itself gives me hope that others are starting to think in terms of self-organizing systems in real world. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 01:49:51 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 02:49:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917014951.43859.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Marriage is indeed not an issue the federal government has any constitutional authority to interfere with. Though I don't care about social security inheritance, I do harbor hidden motives in promoting an agenda of gay activism: to help erode monogamy in the long run (as a libertarian you accept maximum freedom of choice; providing alternatives to monogamy is maximizing free choice). However we both agree America is a conservative nation and it would seem monogamy is not immediately threatened. But I accept devolution arguments because the more red states struggle against gay marriage, the more of a counterreaction is instigated- continuing a self-perpetuating struggle. That is how the status quo is altered. > marriage is not an issue the federal > government has any > Constitutional authority to legislate about, pro or > con. It is a state > issue. Nor are proponents of gay marriage honest > about what they really > want. You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular > legal marriage with > contract law and business partnership agreements, > except ONE: social > security benefits inheritance. > > Now if people really wanted to fix THAT, the right > and libertarian > thing to do would be to end social security > inheritance for everybody. > That would probably save social security too > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 17 01:55:39 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:55:39 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/16/04 18:00) Mike Lorrey wrote: >You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with >contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social >security benefits inheritance. Not true. Try going to the hospital, even with a health care power of attorney, to sit at the bedside of someone who isn't in your immediate family. The HCPA will let you see their doctor, but the doctor will keep you from seeing your partner. Seen that. Very ugly. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 02:07:31 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:37:31 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: References: <20040917010005.71633.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409161907476b5e67@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:55:39 -0400, Brent Neal wrote: > (9/16/04 18:00) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with > >contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social > >security benefits inheritance. > > > Not true. Try going to the hospital, even with a health care power of attorney, to sit at the bedside of someone who isn't in your immediate family. The HCPA will let you see their doctor, but the doctor will keep you from seeing your partner. Seen that. Very ugly. > > B > > > > -- > Brent Neal > Geek of all Trades > http://brentn.freeshell.org > > "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > This is a bit of a weird suggestion... For these purposes of being family, perhaps also relevant wrt inheritance, could a gay couple adopt each other, so that each was the legal adopted child of the other? Crazy, but maybe it would achieve family status? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 02:15:20 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:15:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <200409162259.i8GMxgS9030700@br549.indconet.com> Message-ID: <000c01c49c5c$34f4cfc0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Trend Ologist > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues... Trend, have you checked out Kerry's opponent on these issues? Please do, you will like what you see: http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/GayIssues.php http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/HealthCare.php spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 02:27:34 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:27:34 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> Message-ID: <000e01c49c5d$e7ae54f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Joseph S. Barrera III > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique > > > Emlyn wrote: > > > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > > > Why do you say that? The reason I didn't pursue a job there when I solved their (really cool) math puzzles: every job they described in their recruitment website can be offshored to countries where they can be performed at a dramatically lower cost. I have a spin on Murphy's famous law that applies especially well to the US and Europe over the next 10 to 20 years: Any job that can be exported, will be. spike From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 02:36:49 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:36:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000c01c49c5c$34f4cfc0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this moment has a 50-50 chance of winning. Conservative Americans would not elect a libertarian candidate president anymore than they would elect a socialist candidate president. Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian beatnik. > Trend, have you checked out Kerry's opponent on > these issues? > Please do, you will like what you see: > > http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/GayIssues.php > > http://www.badnarik.org/Issues/HealthCare.php > > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 02:41:14 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:11:14 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <000e01c49c5d$e7ae54f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> <000e01c49c5d$e7ae54f0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409161941222842f8@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:27:34 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Joseph S. Barrera III > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique > > > > > > Emlyn wrote: > > > > > > Not that I personally would recommend working for Google. > > > > > > Why do you say that? > > > The reason I didn't pursue a job there when I solved their > (really cool) math puzzles: every job they described in their > recruitment website can be offshored to countries where they > can be performed at a dramatically lower cost. > > I have a spin on Murphy's famous law that applies especially > well to the US and Europe over the next 10 to 20 years: > > Any job that can be exported, will be. > > spike > Do you guys think these jobs are being exported successfully? I've been reading about "onshoring" in the tech industry in the US recently; apparently there's a bit of a backlash going on. http://www.aspnews.com/trends/article.php/3344651 http://www.infoage.idg.com.au/index.php/id;101925378;fp;4;fpid;528913576 http://www.internetnews.com/bus-news/article.php/3335461 http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/7959748.htm -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 02:40:30 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:40:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c49c5f$b654bf50$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Brent Neal > ...I see no > real difference between them and the so-called tax-and-spend > Democrats... > > Brent Nor do I. The difference is one is tax-and-spend, the other is cut-taxes-and-spend-anyway. What we desperately need is cut-taxes-and-cut-spending. Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. I think you said you are from Taxifornia? Me too. We have the luxury of voting for whoever we think is best here, without fear of actually effecting the outcome of the election. {8-] spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 02:44:53 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 19:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040917024453.31516.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (9/16/04 18:00) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >You can reproduce EVERY aspect of a regular legal marriage with > >contract law and business partnership agreements, except ONE: social > >security benefits inheritance. > > > Not true. Try going to the hospital, even with a health care power > of attorney, to sit at the bedside of someone who isn't in your > immediate family. The HCPA will let you see their doctor, but the > doctor will keep you from seeing your partner. Seen that. Very ugly. POWER OF ATTORNEY Ever heard of it? With a living will, your power of attorney assignee has the authority to visit you to ascertain your level of care. Problem is you (or whoever you are talking about) didn't use the right code words. You don't say "I'm his gay partner", you say "I'm his power of attorney". Gay partner doesn't mean shit, sorry to say, but power of attorney holds the keys to the kingdom. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mbb386 at main.nc.us Fri Sep 17 02:49:58 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 22:49:58 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Be that as it may, I will vote for Badnarik. I am sick and tired of trying to vote for "the lesser of two evils" only to walk out of the voting booth feeling rotten and ashamed. Regards, MB On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Trend Ologist wrote: > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning. Conservative > Americans would not elect a libertarian candidate > president anymore than they would elect a socialist > candidate president. > Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable > to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian > beatnik. From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 02:52:18 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 03:52:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c5f$b654bf50$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040917025218.46415.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No offense, but this is an example of globaloney: " And the world will live as six billion". The older I get, the less I'm interested in what ought to be, and more interested in what is... and what is is not the possibility of six billion living in relative harmony. >And the world will live as 6 billion. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 03:07:29 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:07:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Trend Ologist > > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning... Well he did, at least until old 527 Rather lent his support. Check it now: http://www.electoral-vote.com/ I've been watching this site for several weeks. It has gotten *dramatically* redder in the past week. (What color is libertarian?) > Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable > to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian > beatnik. Ja that name is unfortunate indeed. (I am viewing DVDs of the Bullwinkle show, with villain Boris Badinov.) Every American president has had an Anglican sounding name, with the possible exception of Van Buren (no *steins, no *skis, no *iks, not even *as or *os.) Same with vice presidents, with the possible exception of J. Danforth Quayle. (Quayle? What the hell is that?) But right now I would prefer a wicked Russian beatnik to the two front runners. spike From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 03:15:57 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GOOGLE: innovative recruiting technique In-Reply-To: <414A3ED2.3030905@barrera.org> Message-ID: <20040917031557.27337.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Joseph S. Barrera III" wrote: > Emlyn wrote: > > > Not that I personally would recommend working > for Google. > > > > Why do you say that? > > I interviewed there twice. I was completely and > totally unimpressed with > the interview process. I'm a systems-level > programmer with a lot of > experience on Windows. My resume makes that pretty > clear with > many concrete examples. For my first interview, > everyone to interview > me was a GUI programmer... because of course Windows > means GUI. > No. So I spoke to the HR person and tried to clarify > what my background > was. My second interview was with Linux kernel > hackers who wanted > to know if I knew exactly what data structures Linux > used to implement > TCP. (Now I have hacked kernels, but mostly Mach and > BSD, at the > VM and IPC and filesystem levels, not networking.) Ah, that would probably be because they don't have a lot of use for Windows-specific programming. They have use for GUI, and they have use for Linux-specific stuff since that's their servers. But Windows? Maybe minor products like Google Toolbars (which are, again, mainly GUI), but that's hardly their main business. So, no, if you're primarily a Windows programmer you probably wouldn't have much of a match there. On the other hand, if your focus is, say, Web programming... From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 03:41:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040917034129.91847.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Yeah, especially this year, when the main choices are tweedle dumb and tweedle dumber. Its hard to pull the curtain, push the buttons, and hold your nose at the same time at the voting booth. --- MB wrote: > > Be that as it may, I will vote for Badnarik. I am sick and tired of > trying to vote for "the lesser of two evils" only to walk out of the > voting booth feeling rotten and ashamed. > > Regards, > MB > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Trend Ologist wrote: > > > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning. Conservative > > Americans would not elect a libertarian candidate > > president anymore than they would elect a socialist > > candidate president. > > Besides a name such as 'Badnarik' wont be acceptable > > to middle America-- sounds like a wicked Russian > > beatnik. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From paul.bridger at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 03:47:58 2004 From: paul.bridger at gmail.com (Paul Bridger) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:47:58 +1200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040917023649.97627.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <3fec8940409162047397296b6@mail.gmail.com> Check out the cartograph for a more intuitive grasp of the situation: http://www.electoral-vote.com/carto/sep16c.html On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:07:29 -0700, Spike wrote: > http://www.electoral-vote.com/ From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 03:53:32 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 20:53:32 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <000001c49c69$e6c202b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > > Trend Ologist > > > > Badnarik has no chance of winning. Kerry at this > > moment has a 50-50 chance of winning... > > Well he did, at least until old 527 Rather > lent his support. Check it now: > http://www.electoral-vote.com/ >I've been watching this site for several weeks. It >has gotten *dramatically* redder in the past week. Check this. I kept track of the number of predicted electoral votes for W in the right column and whats- his-name in the left: WHN W 1-Sep-04 242 280 2-Sep-04 252 270 3-Sep-04 252 270 4-Sep-04 252 270 5-Sep-04 252 270 6-Sep-04 247 275 7-Sep-04 237 275 8-Sep-04 264 222 9-Sep-04 243 254 10-Sep-04 252 254 11-Sep-04 273 233 12-Sep-04 273 233 13-Sep-04 269 233 14-Sep-04 238 291 15-Sep-04 238 296 16-Sep-04 223 311 Im not sure if there is any cause-effect relationship, but note that 8 September is the day 60 Minutes broke the newly-discovered-Bush-documents story. By the next day a lot of us had realized the documents were forgeries after viewing the online PDFs. Thru the week, more and more people evidently came to the same conclusion. On 15 September the late Dan Rather himself admitted that there were serious questions regarding the documents (while reprehensibly refusing to retract the story). Surely this is all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. Perhaps the forged documents were planted by some Limbaughian scoundrel, poison bait which DNCBS, the NY Times and the Boston Globe all devoured with glee, from which they are still wretching violently. Whaddya think? From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 04:14:52 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 23:14:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040916205516.88508.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm voting for Kerry because he supports anything I choose to believe. If I am for something, he is for it. If I change my mind to be against that same thing, you can bet that he supports that point of view as well. How fortunate I will be to have a president that can be simultaneously for and against everything! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trend Ologist" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry because > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay issues. > The choice in this election (and the 2000 election): > easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the > choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make the > choice for Kerry earlier this year. > To think at one time the electorate actually had to > think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson > versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough choice. > But son of Bush? Hell no. > > >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > > guilty of this kind of > > behavior. :-) > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 04:44:00 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:44:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <3fec8940409162047397296b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301c49c70$f9d12500$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Cool thanks Paul. Check this, I thought I would wet my diapers: http://www.jibjab.com/default.asp > Paul Bridger > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > > Check out the cartograph for a more intuitive grasp of the situation: > http://www.electoral-vote.com/carto/sep16c.html > From jonkc at att.net Fri Sep 17 04:51:08 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 00:51:08 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <002501c49c72$0521ea10$50f54d0c@hal2001> "Slawomir Paliwoda" > Identity doesn't evaporate even when mind process stops. Sometimes that is true. > Pausing process' activity is not the same as > destroying it. Dropping a brain in a vat of liquid nitrogen will certainly pause its activity, but if we are very lucky it will not destroy it. > I want people to think about identity from the perspective > of subjective experience rather than from the perspective > of memories and personalities. Your memories and that bundle of mental abilities and emotions we call personality are subjective experience and they are the only part of me that I really want to survive; I don?t much care if my left big toe survives or not. > The error in your reasoning is the phrase "instantly swapped > the location of you and the copy". You can't just "instantly" > swap matter in space-time. I said ?instantly? just for simplicity, my thought experiment does not require it; I can take as much time as I want to swap every atom in your body with the original Slawomir Paliwoda standing next to you. There is no way my making such a switch can make the slightest difference either objectively or subjectively and there is no way you can tell if I really did anything at all because one hydrogen atom is identical to another. > will carve a unique trajectory in space-time. Because there can > only be one and only one such trajectory, it is possible to > track the identity of any object. That ?unique trajectory? is more like a dog?s breakfast because all the atoms in your body and brain are in a constant flux, you are quite literally not the man you were a year ago. > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > parameters (x,y,z,t). That is one of your errors right there, asking for the coordinates of a mind is like asking where ?red? is or ?fast? or ?big?. A brain may or may not have a unique location (it could be distributed) but the mind does not, it might not even know or need to know anything about the brain that is producing it. > Threrefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting > the log detailing locations of my mind in space and time, I?m not saying you can?t devise a thought experiment where you can determine who is the original and who is the copy, I?m saying you can also devise ones where you can not. Thought experiment: You and the original (or you and the copy, hard to say) are standing next to each other. I flip a coin and then take out my Magnum 44 and shoot one of you in the head. I then bring out a sealed envelope containing the only log that can prove definitely who was the copy and who was the original and hand it to the one I did not shoot. You (the survivor) feel fine happy and healthy, you feel just like you remember feeling in the past, so do you open the envelope or burn it? And if you open it and find you are the copy is there any reason to be distressed? > My point is that two *different* objects cannot occupy >the same location in space and time. That?s only true of things that obey The Pauli Exclusion Principle and not everything does. Two different photons of light can occupy the same location in space and time, but it doesn?t really matter because mind is not an object. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Sep 17 04:50:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 21:50:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <3fec8940409162047397296b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000401c49c71$dcab2e20$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Since this appears to be politics night, Ill offer this. I was amazed at how well this quiz describes my attitudes: http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blgeorgewbushquiz.htm (8^D spike From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 04:53:04 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 05:53:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040917045304.56406.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> The alternative is to vote for a guy who thinks he talks to God when he prays. Why doesn't Bush pray to Jesus to come to earth to run for president himself? Maybe the reason I'm voting for Kerry is because of the hypercriticality of the electorate- they want a candidate who is has the bravery of Audie Murphy, the body of Schwarzenegger, who speaks like Lincoln, and who lives at Valley Forge. Is everyone as fickle as Americans? Clinton was accused of being a draft dodger, and now when a guy runs for president who is not a draft dodger, all of a sudden it isn't good enough. Why doesn't America start a long term program to build an android for president? We could vote on what we want president android to look like and how to speak. Program the android to tell the truth. Build the android to be a combination of all races and to have no gender. The android should have a term limit chip implanted in its brain so it wont try to be re-elected. > Kevin Freels wrote: > I'm voting for Kerry because he supports anything I > choose to believe. If I > am for something, he is for it. If I change my mind > to be against that same > thing, you can bet that he supports that point of > view as well. How > fortunate I will be to have a president that can be > simultaneously for and > against everything! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trend Ologist" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 3:55 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > > > No danger of forgetting, I'm voting for Kerry > because > > of his position on stem-cell funding and gay > issues. > > The choice in this election (and the 2000 > election): > > easy as cake. It took only two seconds to make the > > choice for Gore in 2000, and one second to make > the > > choice for Kerry earlier this year. > > To think at one time the electorate actually had > to > > think long and hard on who to vote for. Stevenson > > versus Eisenhower must have been a very tough > choice. > > But son of Bush? Hell no. > > > > >Just remember, conservatives aren't the only ones > > > guilty of this kind of > > > behavior. :-) > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW > Yahoo! > Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 17 05:01:29 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 06:01:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c63$77c76c70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040917050129.70197.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> You just might have a point here. I'll stay away from this e-list for seven weeks so as not to heave up politics every day. Will come back right before the election. > But right now I would prefer a wicked Russian > beatnik to > the two front runners. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 05:15:09 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 01:15:09 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: > >I'm not sure how you arrive at this conclusion, but even if one can conclude > >from this that people have souls, this is definitely not the *only* > >conclusion that we can draw here. Much more effective alternative is to > >focus on subjective experience because that's the only thing that stays the > >same throughout memory fluctuations or changes in personality. I want people > >to think about identity from the perspective of subjective experience rather > >than from the perspective of memories and personalities. > Subjective experience certainly does not "stay the same" in > any measurable sense. That's why I talk about the concept of tangible mind process that serves as a container for intangible subjective experience. Defining the nature of subjective experience is not necessary to define personal identity. If we recognize that subjective experience, whatever it is, happens inside a computational substrate of the mind, i.e., inside a physical object whose location in space and time can always be measured, we can conclude that personal identity is rooted in the uniqueness of the mind process in space-time. Slawomir From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Sep 17 08:45:59 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:45:59 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c69$e6c202b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000001c49c69$e6c202b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: Spike: What about the 9/11 anniversary. Surely this had some effect as well? best, patrick On 17 Sep 2004, at 05:53, Spike wrote: > Check this. I kept track of the number of predicted > electoral votes for W in the right column and whats- > his-name in the left: > > WHN W > 1-Sep-04 242 280 > 2-Sep-04 252 270 > 3-Sep-04 252 270 > 4-Sep-04 252 270 > 5-Sep-04 252 270 > 6-Sep-04 247 275 > 7-Sep-04 237 275 > 8-Sep-04 264 222 > 9-Sep-04 243 254 > 10-Sep-04 252 254 > 11-Sep-04 273 233 > 12-Sep-04 273 233 > 13-Sep-04 269 233 > 14-Sep-04 238 291 > 15-Sep-04 238 296 > 16-Sep-04 223 311 > > Im not sure if there is any cause-effect relationship, > but note that 8 September is the day 60 Minutes broke the > newly-discovered-Bush-documents story. By the next > day a lot of us had realized the documents were forgeries > after viewing the online PDFs. Thru the week, more and > more people evidently came to the same conclusion. On > 15 September the late Dan Rather himself admitted that > there were serious questions regarding the documents (while > reprehensibly refusing to retract the story). > > Surely this is all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. > Perhaps the forged documents were planted by some > Limbaughian scoundrel, poison bait which DNCBS, the > NY Times and the Boston Globe all devoured with glee, > from which they are still wretching violently. > > Whaddya think? > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 13:00:55 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:00:55 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <002501c49c72$0521ea10$50f54d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: > > I want people to think about identity from the perspective > > of subjective experience rather than from the perspective > > of memories and personalities. > > Your memories and that bundle of mental abilities and emotions we call > personality are subjective experience and they are the only part of me that > I really want to survive; Your memories and mental abilities are merely your data, or *pattern*, which is static, while subjective experience is part of a dynamic *process* that executes on that pattern. Your thoughts and consciousness are not a function of a static pattern, but a function of the process that this pattern enters into. > > The error in your reasoning is the phrase "instantly swapped > > the location of you and the copy". You can't just "instantly" > > swap matter in space-time. > > I said ?instantly? just for simplicity, my thought experiment does not > require it; I can take as much time as I want to swap every atom in your > body with the original Slawomir Paliwoda standing next to you. There is no > way my making such a switch can make the slightest difference either > objectively or subjectively and there is no way you can tell if I really did > anything at all because one hydrogen atom is identical to another. But gradually swapping the atoms is not the same as swapping the location of a mind, which makes it a completely different experiment. If, by "swapping location", you meant gradual swapping of atoms, then the way to verify the originality of my mind would be the same as before, namely, by tracking the location of my mind process in space-time. Whether the atoms that make up my mind substrate come from my copy or other source is completely irrelevant to my identity as long as they don't destroy my mind process. My identity remains the same even if "new" atoms in my brain completely replace the "old" ones. By focusing exclusively on the process allows me a complete disregard for the nature, or source, of my mind substrate. As long as the integrity of that process is preserved, I'm fine. > > will carve a unique trajectory in space-time. Because there can > > only be one and only one such trajectory, it is possible to > > track the identity of any object. > > That ?unique trajectory? is more like a dog?s breakfast because all the > atoms in your body and brain are in a constant flux, you are quite literally > not the man you were a year ago. No. I'm not talking about the trajectory of atoms that make up the mind's substrate, but a trajectory of a mind process. There's a huge difference between the two. > > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > > parameters (x,y,z,t). > > That is one of your errors right there, asking for the coordinates of a mind > is like asking where ?red? is or ?fast? or ?big?. Unlike "red", any mind is a tangible process. It's an activity of matter whose position in space-time can be measured. > > Therefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting > > the log detailing locations of my mind in space and time, > > I?m not saying you can?t devise a thought experiment where you can determine > who is the original and who is the copy, I?m saying you can also devise ones > where you can not. Whatever these experiments might be, I'm afraid they would have to violate the laws of physics first to prove that verification of identity is impossible. > Thought experiment: > > You and the original (or you and the copy, hard to say) are standing next to > each other. I flip a coin and then take out my Magnum 44 and shoot one of > you in the head. I then bring out a sealed envelope containing the only log > that can prove definitely who was the copy and who was the original and hand > it to the one I did not shoot. You (the survivor) feel fine happy and > healthy, you feel just like you remember feeling in the past, so do you open > the envelope or burn it? And if you open it and find you are the copy is > there any reason to be distressed? Obviously, this experiment does not attempt to show that verification of identity is impossible. Instead, it merely poses a personal question how the survivor would feel about after verifying its true identity. And the answer is that, in any case, the survivor should feel very lucky. > > My point is that two *different* objects cannot occupy > >the same location in space and time. > > That?s only true of things that obey The Pauli Exclusion Principle and not > everything does. Two different photons of light can occupy the same > location in space and time, but it doesn?t really matter because mind is not > an object. Electrons flowing through the brain are not matter? Slawomir From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Sep 17 14:39:12 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:39:12 -0700 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > > That's why I talk about the concept of tangible mind process that > serves as a container for intangible subjective experience. Defining > the nature of subjective experience is not necessary to define > personal identity. If we recognize that subjective experience, > whatever it is, happens inside a computational substrate of the mind, > i.e., inside a physical object whose location in space and time can > always be measured, we can conclude that personal identity is rooted > in the uniqueness of the mind process in space-time. It seems that no matter which aspect of this topic is being discussed, your belief is that there is a Unique Identity that is continuous and preserved. Let's set aside the technical/philosophical aspects for a moment. How would it feel to *find out* that you are the copy? How would it feel to *be* the copy? Why? - Jef From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 14:47:35 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:47:35 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] First reactions to transhumanism Message-ID: <470a3c52040917074772ce1395@mail.gmail.com> The Canadian online magazine VOIR offers a debate between a transhumanist and a neoluddite, for French speakers to enjoy. The most interesting thing is reading the many comments left by readers, many of whom apparently had not been exposed to transhumanism befor. It is I believe a useful lesson that can be used for better marketing to see the range of first reactions to transhumanism. Besides preaching to the converted on our lists, we should also engage in debates and defend transhumanism on other lists: again, not only arguing politics on transhumanist fora, but also arguing transhumanism on political fora. LE TRANSHUMANISTE - Justice de Th?zier r?ve d'une soci?t? o? l'on pourra "surmonter nos limites biologiques par les progr?s technologiques". Il r?ve d'une soci?t? progressiste o?, gr?ce aux prodiges de la g?n?tique, les individus pourraient vivre centenaires, jouir d'une intelligence accrue et de sens plus aiguis?s, ?tre immunis?s contre la maladie et ne plus conna?tre les handicaps physiques. Une soci?t?, en somme, o? tous seraient ?gaux. Pour atteindre cette utopie ("r?aliste", insiste-t-il), il invite le monde ? lancer une seconde r?volution tranquille. Une r?volution qui permettra d'embrasser les nouvelles technologies afin qu'elles portent l'humanit? vers de nouveaux horizons. LE N?O-LUDDITE Kalle Lasn a 62 ans. Originaire de l'Estonie, il habite aujourd'hui Vancouver. Inquiet des cons?quences d?sastreuses des nouvelles technologies, il r?ve d'un retour en arri?re. Il r?ve d'une soci?t? o? l'automobile (et le p?trole) ne serait plus l'unique moteur de l'?conomie. Une soci?t? o? l'agriculture modifi?e g?n?tiquement serait ?radiqu?e et o? les citoyens seraient lib?r?s de la propagande commerciale diffus?e par la t?l?vision. Une soci?t?, en somme, o? l'humain vivrait en harmonie avec lui-m?me, ses semblables et son environnement. http://www.voir.ca/actualite/actualite.aspx?iIDArticle=32418 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 14:55:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 07:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c69$e6c202b0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040917145519.99212.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Surely this is all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. > Perhaps the forged documents were planted by some > Limbaughian scoundrel, poison bait which DNCBS, the > NY Times and the Boston Globe all devoured with glee, > from which they are still wretching violently. > This is likely the next best thing to actually catching bin Laden or finding WMDs. I'm predicting that if these two don't magically come out of the closet before November, that they will in the first quarter of next year so that Bush can assert a true mandate even over the sore losers who will have to admit they were wrong, at least publicly. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 15:15:55 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:15:55 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: > Let's set aside the technical/philosophical aspects for a moment. How > would it feel to *find out* that you are the copy? How would it feel to > *be* the copy? Why? John K. Clark asked a similar question. I'm going to answer it even though the answer is irrelevant to what defines identity, and to the debate. If I found out I was the copy, then I, the copy, would feel great that my subjective experience still exists. How would it feel to be the copy? It would feel exactly the same as being the original. That doesn't mean I would be the original. If I, the original, were dead, then my subjective experience would register nothingness regardless of how many of my living and breathing copies might be out there. Obviously, this is all beside the point. How I feel about my identity does not define what it is. Slawomir From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Sep 17 15:53:28 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:53:28 -0700 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: >>Let's set aside the technical/philosophical aspects for a moment. How >>would it feel to *find out* that you are the copy? How would it feel to >>*be* the copy? Why? >> >> > >John K. Clark asked a similar question. I'm going to answer it even though >the answer is irrelevant to what defines identity, and to the debate. > >If I found out I was the copy, then I, the copy, would feel great that my >subjective experience still exists. How would it feel to be the copy? It >would feel exactly the same as being the original. That doesn't mean I would >be the original. If I, the original, were dead, then my subjective >experience would register nothingness regardless of how many of my living >and breathing copies might be out there. > >Obviously, this is all beside the point. How I feel about my identity does >not define what it is. > > > Thanks for humoring me, but I think that is as very important point. In fact, you pointed our the ultimate importance of the subjective experience. So, without referring to how it came to be, but only considering how it is experienced, what is the measurable difference between being the original versus being the copy? - Jef From natashavita at earthlink.net Fri Sep 17 16:14:15 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:14:15 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Keith Henson - What to do. Message-ID: <307750-220049517161415597@M2W046.mail2web.com> Friends, Bottom line, what can we do together or individually to help Keith? How long has this been going on, how much longer could it go on, how can we help him make it stop or go away, or, if not, at least work with him to figure out some sort of resolve. I saw Keith at TV04 and he looked well. Many thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 17 16:20:37 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:20:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040917110419.01af3ad8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 07:39 AM 9/17/2004 -0700, Jef wrote: >Let's set aside the technical/philosophical aspects for a moment. How >would it feel to *find out* that you are the copy? How would it feel to >*be* the copy? Why? I can't credit how often this comes up as if it were an objection to someone's wish to continue existing. Obviously a nearly-exact copy would *feel*, from inside, just like you do now. The copy would also serve everyone else's needs as well as the original did. None of that has the slightest bearing on whether the original should be complicit, indeed happy, in its own termination. Now it might be that a kind of displaced egotism would rejoice in the prospect of a near-perfect copy continuing on in the world after one's own death. This is often held to be one motive for having children, although given the really crummy fidelity in the offspring copying process any `immortality' involved is rather dubious. But that's an entirely different motivation from one's urgent, legacy-code driven wish, from *inside*, to stay alive and kicking. What is so hard to understand about this distinction? (Granted, it will tend to vanish once we have the opportunity to expand our locus of identity beyond our skin, by running an interactive redundant backup on some other substrate. But for now, it seems to me absurd to be content or even eager to perish *now* on the off-chance that a near-perfect--or even repaired and enhanced--copy of you will be compiled elsewhere in the future. Good luck to him, I say, but his good fortune in existing, should that come about, has very little to do with *me*, here and now, here inside.) Damien Broderick From jef at jefallbright.net Fri Sep 17 16:36:08 2004 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 09:36:08 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040917110419.01af3ad8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <6.1.1.1.0.20040917110419.01af3ad8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <414B1278.5060003@jefallbright.net> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 07:39 AM 9/17/2004 -0700, Jef wrote: > >> Let's set aside the technical/philosophical aspects for a moment. >> How would it feel to *find out* that you are the copy? How would it >> feel to *be* the copy? Why? > > > I can't credit how often this comes up as if it were an objection to > someone's wish to continue existing. > > Obviously a nearly-exact copy would *feel*, from inside, just like you > do now. > > The copy would also serve everyone else's needs as well as the > original did. > > None of that has the slightest bearing on whether the original should > be complicit, indeed happy, in its own termination. > Damien - You and I appear to be in complete agreement. My goal in these discussions is to help raise awareness that there is no logical or physical objection to the concept of multiple copies, but only the very real fact that we living organisms have a strong built-in aversion to what looks like death. - Jef From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Sep 17 16:57:51 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 02:57:51 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4148BFDC.3090208@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: <06fe01c49cd7$7807df20$ec202dcb@homepc> Rafal Smigrodzki" > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > >Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: > > > > > > > >> Thus, the concept of "identity" is > >>in fact a whole slew of related but distinct concepts, with > >>different properties and referents. > >> > >> > > > >I've no problem with this but it doesn't seem relevant here. As > >Slawomir Paliwoda says in his excellent post on Personal Identity, > >"personal identity depends on a mind powered by the brain which is > >a physical object, and like all other objects, it can and should be > >subject to scientific investigation." > > > >And .... "once we agree that, in science, there's only one correct > >explanation for something at the exclusion of other theories, we can > >say that there can only be one explanation/description of personal > >identity that is true and all other theories are false." > > > > > ### Now, this is news to me: do you think that Euclid's parallel axiom > is true? False? Neither? Non-scientific? I think it is true. I'd hold it to be true until such time as I was shown that it was false. Is it scientific? I can't see that it is scientific. I think that some things can be true without being scientific. I think that to practice science requires understanding some things at a more fundamental level than science because if we don't we can't do science. Among these things, as chance would have it, is the notion of what identity is. That A is A. That A is not anything that is not A. I don't think a person can practice the scientific method without understanding contingency. One needs to be able to formulate a hypothesis that is intelligible and falsifiable. People can use words in different ways and they can and do misuse them sometimes. Identity may mean different things in other contexts. But for the purpose of this discussion (and consideration of cryonics generally) I think we need to ground personal identity somewhere quite carefully. We can so ground it, it is possible, and it behoves us to if we want to be exact and scientific in our explanations. If we don't we just argue past each other. I presume we both have at least some interest in persuasion. Certainly cryonics doesn't need any more linguistic saddle-lead to slow down its acceptance. I think Slawomir's notion of identity (Personal Identity) is better than yours. Not because it is his, but because it sets the bar the highest and you can understand it too. You can define a lesser requirement than the maintenance of full Personal Identity as still being desirable and of value to you and too your taste just as easily. You can coin another word that is less confusing. > Or more: since the taste of rocquefort depends on chemical interactions, > which are subject to scientific investigation, what is the correct taste > of rocquefort? So far as I know taste cannot be conveyed between subjects directly. So far as I know to explain taste scientifically we'd probably have to look at those chemical interactions. > Generally, science doesn't necessarily produce exclusive > either/or results, and doesn't directly make normative statements. The point is we can explore a subject systematically and scientifically if we chose to, and historically I think we'd agree approaching things scientifically is useful, but we preclude the possibility of doing it jointly if we cannot agree on the meaning of a some key words. Logic and reason are more fundamental than science. So too is the ability to coin words. > The statement: > "I like the idea of having a self-similar material structure in the > future" is normative, and its normative content *may not* be subject to > verification - just as the normative content of your statement "I don't > care about having self-similar material structures in the future, except > if produced by continuity (of sorts) with my present structure". By normative I'm assuming you mean statements that express preferences or norms but not truths. > ------------------------------------ > > > > > > >>I accept that your (Brett Paatch's) identity is what you say, since > >>this is what is produced by the processes in your brain (and my > >>meta-rule for such definitions is that they are produced by the > >>brains in a self-referential manner) . It's a fact, albeit a fact > >>pertaining only to Brett Paatsch. Now, my own, Rafal's identity > >>is defined differently. It is also a fact. Although the definitions > >>are different, they are not contradictory - they apply to different > >>objects, just like the varied definitions of an "original" in the art > >>world. Even though your definition of self is different from mine > >>(not even analogous), I do not think you are mistaken - merely > >>different. Do you see the point? > >> > >> > > > >Yes, I understand what your saying, but I think that you have > >gone off on a tangent. You are taking us away from a discussion > >on cryonics and of the obstacles cryonics would inevitably have > >to overcome to be of interest to people like you and I. That is > >people that currently have our sense of self located in our brains. > > > > > ### No, I am not going off at a tangent - because I am not > like you. My sense of self is not "located" in my brain, it's located > in my personality-defining information-like structures. So you sense of self is located in your personality-defining information-like structures which are in turn located in ............ > ---------------------------- > > > You are currently located in > >your brain just as I am. Your aspirations for cryonics will have > >to deal with that. A cryonics procedure that goes hunting > >about the room to pick up astral travelling selves is unlike to > >be of interest to either of us. > > > > > > > ### Yes, my personality-defining information is inscribed in my brain, > currently. My aspirations for cryonics deal with this excellently. ...........your brain. You simply positied another layer of containment where I omitted the middle container. You foot is in your shoe even if it is also in your sock that is in your shoe. > --------------------------------------- > > > >>In other words, you are a universalist, believing that a > >>single definition of self (your own) is the only correct one > >>("all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense > >>of self....."), while I am a pluralist, letting everyone decide > >>where their own (and only their own) identities lie. > >> > >> > > > >You've split my sentence in the middle when you quote me > >above. I'd said "all members of the species homo sapiens have > >their sense of self inherent in the structure of their cellular brain". > >That is not me defining a self concept. That is me pointing out > >that whatever our self concepts are they are *located* if we > >are homo sapiens in our brain structure. > > > > > ### I don't know how you can claim that a concept is > "located" anywhere. A concept may be written down in a > particular book, or be embodied in a patented machine, > but the word "located" should only be used for > material objects. Well we are talking about the self concept which is a special case, but even so wouldn't you agree that all concepts that you comprehend (as opposed to their representations) you comprehend in you brain? Concepts are represented symbolically in books and interpreted in the brain would be how I'd look at it. > Let me quote your full paragraph to which I referred above: "I do think > all members of the species homo sapiens have their sense of self > inherent in the structure of their cellular brain. I think that it is a > mistake to think that someone who is now a homo sapiens can be > abstracted out of their cellular substrate and yet somehow continue to > exist as disembodied pattern and then to be re-instantiated again. I > think that the self is lost in the process." > > In other words, you say that for all humans, sense of self is "inherent" > in the brain and is inevitably lost during transfer of information. The > use of the universal qualifier makes it sound like a definition, > insisting that for all humans, whatever is transferred > ("re-instantiated") cannot be self. "Sense of self" does looks and sound sloppy in retrospect. I should have just said self. But the self is a process (not a mere pattern) taking place within the brain-space - I don't claim to know exactly what it is - only that it, some part of your objective cellular substrate effectively results in a subjective experience of a self for you. I think that you'd agree that all humans self concepts currently reside in their head (more specifically in their brain)- notwithstanding that you think that may not continue to hold true in the future. > ----------------------------------- > > > >>If you mean "functioning without any material substrate", then no, > >>of course not. > >> > >> > > > >Ok. So you think you would cease to exist as "you" while you exist > >only as a dataset of information for building you at a later date? > > > > > ### What do you mean by "exist"? I would exist as static information, > I would not exist as a conscious information processor. > > -------------------------------- > > >Sort of cake - recipe -cake. While your a recipe your not a cake. > > > > > ### Yes, sure, I have no problem with existing as a recipe. > I am both a recipe and a cake at this time (I can be used as source > of information for making copies and I keep processing information > at the same time), in the future I might temporarily exist as a recipe >only, and then resume normal functioning. At THIS time I suspect the best copies of you you could make would involve genomic information. Children. > ------------------------------------ > > >>> <>### Let me ask you something: do you think that it could be in > >>> principle > >>> possible to analyze the material structure of your brain, and use the > >>> information to make a brain which would behave in a way consistent > >>> (similar enough) with you (e.g. identify pictures of your mother as "My > >>> mother", or on seeing things you like say it likes them, etc.etc.)? > >> > > > >It might be. In principle. It might be possible to create what Slawomir > >Paliwoda calls a perfect clone. I wouldn't think that perfect clone was > >me. And I don't think that clone could be created because I don't think > >the information to create it could be gathered to the requisite resolution > >without destroying the original me in the process. > > > > > ### No, I didn't ask about the "perfect clone" - I merely asked about a > copy which would behave consistently with you (have largely the same > responses to the same stimuli as you do). The exact level of similarity > here might be as low as that sufficient to fool all the persons you know > into believing the copy is actually you. > > Whether making such a copy can be achieved without disassembly of > you is not relevant to the question. And yes, I already know you wouldn't > see the clone as "you". > > ------------------------------------------ "Nature" "produced" me. There was nothing magical or spiritual in the production process. A living exact copy of my brain would think exactly like me. It would have a subjective experience of being me. Obviously. It cannot be built imo - but that's not what your asking. To everyone else my subjective is inaccessable. To others I present as a perceptual pattern because they experience me as an other. To others any sufficiently good copy might as well be the orginal. And the same would hold for me. ie. I could not tell a sufficiently good copy of anyone else from the original as I don't have access to anyone elses subjective. That would hold true of my closest relationships with other people. They always present to me through my senses and so not as processes but as patterns like a series of discrete snapshots. > >>But, if you agree that a sufficiently > >>advanced technology could produce such a brain, then you > >>cannot say we disagree about facts. > >> > >> > > > >I can conceed the possibility, but I don't find it worth giving > >a lot of thought too, given that I realise I would not be my > >"perfect clone". And there are plenty of other 'facts' yet for > >us to disagree over. > > > > > ### Great! You agree that the disagreement is about value > - you "don't find it worth giving a lot of thought to"! This is > the point - you are not interested in having such a clone, > but I am. I understand that. I'm glad it seems to make you happy. I value my life. I value myself. You and I can both use the word I and conceive of ourselves as selves but our criteria for self survival is different. I can't settle for yours but I can see why it appeals to you. Clone not a good enough word though, the quality of the copy you are interested in is considerable better than a genetic clone even though it would be a separate and new identity like a clone would be. A new word needs coining if you don't like "perfect clone", 'til then I'll stick with "perfect clone". > ----------------------------------------------- > > > > > > >>Both you and me would agree that it is physically possible > >>to make copies of our brains that would act similarly to the > >>originals. The only difference is that I am sufficiently satisfied > >>with/enthusiastic about the prospect of having such a copy > >>in the future that I am willing to pay for cryonics (and yes, I > >>even value this situation equally with "survival" by > >>spatiotemporal continuity of cells), while a copy of you > >>would not elicit sufficient interest from you. > >> > >> > > > >I get what you are saying. But your right I wouldn't be sufficently > >satisified or enthusiastic. To me you are excepting that you > >will die (be materially decomposed and cease as a process) but > >are taking consolation that something just like you will be > >brought back to life (recomposed and started as a process via > >means which you conceed you do not in detail understand). > > > >Your diverting limited resources from solving problems or > >overcoming limits in your current you-process in order to endow > >life to some future you-process. Even though the current and > >future you-processes will not overlap in time. Correct? > > > > > ### Yes, exactly! This is indeed the case, whether you call > dying-and-recomposing, or and I call it "survival", this is indeed the case. > > In the future (e.g. after my premature death in an explosion of a liquid > nitrogen tank :) my recomposed copy may contact you, and while > acknowledging that by your definition I am dead and he is somebody else, > he tells you he remembers from a first-person perspective our present > discussion, and that life is great, he's been boozin' an' humpin' like > in the old times. Ain't cryonics great, or what? > --------------------------------- If it turns out like that way I'll say I'm happy for you. I'll also be quite pleasantly surprised (to say the least) that I'm still around for you to tell me so, having not myself gone through the process. > > > > > >In fairness, why should anyone want to provide numbers or technical > >analysis? What is in it for them? To do that they'd have to take on a > >burden at some opportunity cost of time. If you had laid out numbers > >and technical analysis in detail yourself then they might do you the service > >of checking and perhaps correcting any errors etc. > > > > > ### Opinions of scientists are valuable only insofar as they rely on > superior knowledge and technical analysis. Without these, scientist's > opinions about a subject (e.g. rocquefort or cryonics) are not any more > significant than the opinions of carpenters or business executives. > The technical analysis must be disclosed for verification, or else it's > reasonable to infer that the opinion is groundless (based on ignorance). Thats a possible reason. Another is that they can't be bothered. Another, less likely or frequent, I suspect, is that some people may choose not to disillusion others. Yet another is that some scientific types may be prefer that an inferior sort of cryonics outcome not be held up in even principle as satsifactory when it falls short of continuing the mind-process. Haven't you ever decided not to bother correcting someone with a religious or superstitious world view not because you couldn't but because you had better things to do with your time than to try to talk someone out of what to them is a pleasing fastasy world? > --------------------------------------- > > > > > > > >> Therefore, I am justified in treating > >>scientific detractors of cryonics as ignorant, since if they knew any > >>scientific arguments, they would have used them. > >> > >> > > > >That is a non sequitor. People generally need a reason to do > >work that your not paying then to do, they don't normally >> need a reason to avoid working for nothing. > > > > > ### Some scientists offer unsolicited opinions about cryonics without > facts and numbers - why? Nobody is paying them to do so. As you say or imply above scientists are not only scientists they are also people. Sometimes people do give opinions. Some scientists may speak against cryonics because they see it as pseudo-science (their good students will decide for themselves anyway), and something to warn the public against. Some may like the sound of their voices. Some may be religious and see cryonics as a competitive meme. Ultimately criticism is what scientists should do though. Better criticism is better. But any criticism even the gratuitous frivolous nasty stuff sends a counterbalanceing message of "don't believe" out. The human tendancy to believe rather than think stuff through is so strong that having people (especially people perceived even wrongly to be authorities) say they don't believe or being scornful can be sound-bites that some others hear. > -------------------------------- > > >>### Well, here is how I imagine cryonics might work for me: > >> > >>Cryonic vitrification very soon after death (a few hours, hopefully a > >>few minutes) will preserve the brain structure down to the level of > >>synapses, with intact synaptic protein levels (which define the synaptic > >>strength), and the levels of other proteins, including transcription > >>factors in the nucleus, and most RNA and protein in the cytoplasm and > >>the ECM. > >> > >> > > > >Minutes vs hours? > > > ### There is some mild ultrastructural damage within 20 minutes of warm > ischemia (mitochondrial swelling), and after 24 hours there is visible > retraction of a significant number of synapses. Therefore, loss of > personality-defining information occurs somewhere during that time, > probably no less than 5-6 hours. Anything less than 30 minutes should be > perfectly safe, based on imaging of vitrified samples. > > --------------------------------- > > > Death as determined how? > > > ### By cessation of heartbeat. Some folks might prefer to have a doctor react for a defibrillator in that circumstances as a first choice. Others might think CPR would be worth a first try. So 30 minutes after cessation of heartbeat, cryonics vitrification commences. How long does the vitrification process take? Or was that in your 30 minutes? > ------------------------------- > > > Vitrification how? > > > ### Using Alcor's current procedure. Okay but I've read some of Fahy's stuff. There is problems with the vitrification process too. It can cause damage in its own right. I don't know that I know Alcor's current procedure but I doubt it has advanced a great deal since 1993. > ------------------------------ > > > Down to (and including the synapses I presume) - you'd want > > your memories. To capture you personal synapse pattern you'd > >need nanoscale resolution. > > > ### The resolution provided by a near-field scanning optical > microscope is more than sufficient (goes down to 32 nm) to image > synapses (500 - > 5000 nm). A confocal scanning microscope > has lower resolution but still sufficient to image synapses (and > even actin filaments). >From memory the pores in an cells nucleus can be as narrow as 15 nanometres and yet things like retinoic acids and the steroid hormones are small enough to pass through them. Liposomes can be as small as 25 nm. I'm just curious - what do you think the diametre of a lipid membrane in an organelle is? > > ----------------------------------------- > > > As you know neurons are not nicely rounded cells like one > >might find in a high school text book - they are more like tree or root > >structures and the structure matters. > > > ### I do not get my information about neurons from high school > textbooks. > > ------------------------------- > > > Proteins levels alone won't do > >it you need to know where the proteins (and not just the proteins) > >were when they were in their natural state. > > > > > ### This is why you need to use a confocal or near-field > scanning microscope, as described. One microscope? how long do you imagine your scanning is going to take to finish ? >Non-proteinaceous > molecular species can also be detected by antibodies. Antibodies in solution? Or are these machine-phase antibodies? > In the > unlikely case of nucleic acids assays being necessary, oligonucleotide > in situ hybridization can be used (FISH). You can actually see > single molecules in a regular microscope in this way. miRNAs? > > ---------------------------------- > > > > >That evaporate layers of tissue at what temperature? > > > ### Up to 10 000 kelvin, same as in a commercial lasik or other tissue > machining system. I meant the temperature of the tissue :-) Heat causes movement. You've opted for a destructive just get the information don't worry about saving the atoms approach I note. > > ---------------------------- > > > How do you stop > >the tissue below the surface layer from heating up and information getting > >lost before you determine it? > > > > > ### Using very short laser pulses of the correct frequency. Published > data describe no visible ultrastructural damage beyond a few hundred > nanometers with conventional lasik, and that is much less than the depth > of focus for a scanning confocal microscope. I doubt that there is a lot of relevant published data. Do you have a link? I'd have thought there might be a variety of frequencies. A few hundred nanometres would seem to way to be way too much damage. > > -------------------------------------- > > >3D reconstruction onto what substrate? > > > ### 3D computational model. How can you tell that your model works? Its a model. Where do you get your mapping algorithm? > > -------------------------------- > > >Surely not the same sort of organic substrate as originally - how > > would you put it together without it decomposing. And if on > > some other substrate how would you translate > >the infromation from the first substrate (unique info remember as > > memories > >can't be templated out) onto another substrate? > > > > > ### What do you mean by "templated out"? Using a generic template of what would be typical when you can't determine what was actually there. > > ------------------- > > > > > > >>All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions > >>of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet > >>available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). > >> > >> > > > >You don't say how you will do important steps. You don't talk about > >algorithms > >for storing information, > > > ### Algorithms? The intermediate scan data can be stored as any other > form of digital imaging data. Your going to take nanoscale photos? How? > > ---------------------------------- > > > > for translation that information into something > >that > >could be ported to another sunstrate. > > > > > ### Explain? In Merkles paper he was going to try and store the locations of species of molecules and where they were found. But that information' would not tell you where to put the molecules to form Rafals personal memories on another substrate unless exactly the same sort of substrate spatially and materially was used. There would be problems trying to create an organic brain of the same stuff as yours without it decomposing while it was being put together. > ------------------------ > > >Do you break the brain sized stating material down into smaller pieces? > > > > > ### Do you mean if I work on the whole brain or first cut it up? No, > this method would not require prior dissection. That places some rather substantial limits on how much surface area you have access to for scanning, which in turn adds to how long its going to take you to scan. > > ----------------------- > > >How do you prevent loss of info due to cracking? > > > ### Since nanoscale information about the structure of the crack > surfaces would be available, the cracked surfaces can be apposed in the > 3D model, just like freeze-fractured cell surfaces can be matched in the > freeze-fracture scanning electron microscope. > > ------------------------------------------ > > > How do you move > >pieces around? > > > > > > > ### Pieces? I did not think you'd try and work on the brain in one piece. > ------------------------ > > >>Then a sufficiently powerful computer will construct a neural network > >>replicating the connectivity pattern and the synaptic strengths, as well > >>as the rules of modification of the synaptic strengths in the course of > >>information processing, producing a device which will be behaviorally > >>sufficiently similar to me as to satisfy my desires regarding future > >>states of the world (to silence critics I don't even need to say that I > >>have been "reincarnated" or "brought back to life", or "survived", or > >>any such rigmarole - I only say that both I today and the device in the > >>future are satisfied with this particular outcome, and consider the > >>cryonics money well-spent). > >> > >> > > > > > > > >>Does this describe a sufficiently developed idea? > >> > >> > > > >No. It really, really doesn't. If you want numbers and technical analysis > >in a critique (see your statement above) then you'd have to do a lot more > >work yourself. And before you can put numbers on things you have to > >do more than just name a few potential tools. > > > ### Wait - you wanted to have an outline of "how cryonics might work for > me", to prevent misunderstandings and ambiguities, and not discuss an > idea so insufficiently developed that it would start mutating under > analysis, like a religious concept (at least this is how I read your > question). Yeah I know. But we can't do it like this its too time inefficient. If you are genuine in wanting to get an answer with high confidence to the question can cryonics realistically work for you or not then I think you'll need to find or write a paper of your own. Do that and I'll attack it for you. I am willing to spend time attacking the best cryonics paper around if I can talk with the author directly and I think the author is genuinely wanting to get at the truth. > The outline I gave suffices to define my proposed cryonics > approach. Now, if are you ready to give me a technical critique yourself > , tell me which additional data do you need, and which numbers that I > provided above and below do you disagree with. I'm not ready because your not ready. Have you read Merkles Molecular Repair of the Brain? If you do you would get some ideas on some other engineering problems. There is an Alchor publication called Cryonics Reaching for Tomorrow 4th Edn, published around December 1993, in that there is an Appendix B, written by Greg Fahy "primarily out of intellectual curiosity in response to Dr Ralph Merkles paper "The Molecular Repair of the Brain". Fahy calls his paper at Appendix B "A 'Realistic' Scenario for Repair". There is little point me reading Fahy or even Merkles paper and then using them to act like a smart alec in critiquing you. If Fahy was writting to this list it might be worth my critiquing his paper because at least then I could have a discussion to justify my effort. At present with respect you are not outlining enough for me to critique seriously. I'd recommend you get a hold of it if you haven't already. I only have it in hardcopy and its wider than A4 so it wont fax particularly easily. I think cryonics will not and cannot work. I am willing to take some reasonable steps to persuade you and to put myself to the test against someone who can defend developed ideas but I don't want to have to make the pro case as well as refute it. That takes way too much time. --------------------------- > > > > >You haven't really engaged with *any* key "how to" engineering > > problems > >at all. > > > ### I engaged: > > - how to freeze > > - how to collect information > > and I hinted at how the information could be used. What other key > engineering problems do you see here? > > ----------------------------------- > > >>I could come up with some ballpark > >>estimates of the file sizes, numbers of antibodies, speed of laser > >>machining, but these are all mere technical details (nothing that would > >>be unreasonably expensive or time-consuming, as far as I can tell). > >> > >> > > > >"as far as I can tell" is a very big statement. Unless you wade into the > >problem space with a serious engineering frame of mind you aren't even > >starting to think about the sort of engineering problems that you'd have > >to solve. > > > > > ### OK, you have about 1700 cubic centimeters of tissue (actually less > if you can find methods for substituting generic information for some > subcortical brain areas not involved in personal episodic memories, the > main type of memories I want to have analyzed). At a resolution of 50 > cubic nanometers (more than sufficient to show synapses) there would be > 13.6 x 10^12 voxels. The imaging procedure would need to reliably image > probably no less than 70% of synaptic connections (given the known > redundancy of the brain, but Anders could perhaps give us more details), > and estimate the synaptic strengths to within 10% of their true values > (there is some degree of drift of synaptic strengths in the living > brain, which means you don't need to be very precise in measuring, but > exactly how much you can drift and still get largely the same behavioral > effects is unknown). The range of values for synaptic strength should > not be significantly above 8-bit depth. Given that there are many > hundreds of types of synapses, the actual number of bits per voxel might > be as high 20 to 25. Some of the data would be needed to describe > cellular membranous structures, as well as post-translationally modified > proteins. All in all the uncompressed image of the structural substrate > of personality might be on the order of 10^20 bit. This is only a few > thousand petabytes, not an unreasonable data volume to work on in 20 > years from now. The computing capacity needed to transform this > uncompressed image into a functionally equivalent neural network > simulation is quite large by today's standards, but given the estimates > of Moravec, the processing power needed to actually run the neural > network is unlikely to be many orders of magnitude more than 100 > teraflops/s, a capacity available even now. > > Criticize technically now, please : ) Not now. But if you write a paper yourself I will undertake to discuss yours with you. If you get Fahy's and/or Merkles and adapt them enough to make them your own. Same deal. If you put yours on the net I'd be happy to attack it on the net. Attack it with a view to shaking the truth out so that we could both see what the truth is. >From my point of view Slawomir has made his case. The sort of pattern preserving but not process preserving cryonics your aiming at wouldn't interest me anyway in itself. But I am interested because of the implications for nanomedicine. I've already explored this space to a fair extent and I'd be happy to get some proper closure for my efforts by nailing a bad cryonics meme once and for all. But the quick sketch your putting up isn't substantive enough for me to feel like I've dealt with the meme at its strongest. Regards, Brett From jonkc at att.net Fri Sep 17 16:59:55 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:59:55 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><002501c49c72$0521ea10$50f54d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <018a01c49cd7$e2018a70$e4ff4d0c@hal2001> "Slawomir Paliwoda" > How would it feel to be the copy? It would feel exactly > the same as being the original. Yes, with emphasis on the word ?exactly?. > That doesn't mean I would be the original. OK, but if so then using nothing but your own words above I conclude that the distinction between the words ?Copy? and ?Original? is of trivial importance and not worth bothering about. > Your memories and mental abilities are merely your data, or *pattern* Merely?! Besides than Mrs. Lincoln how did you like the play? > which is static It?s hard to imagine anything more wrong. If your pattern, the thing that makes you be you, were static you couldn?t make new memories or change in any way. > I'm not talking about the trajectory of atoms that make up the mind's > substrate, but a trajectory of a mind process. You can make a trajectory of atoms but ?a trajectory of a mind process? makes no sense, not one bit. > mind is a tangible process. It's an activity of matter But what makes this particular activity interesting is not the matter, there is absolutely nothing special about those atoms, the interesting thing is what they do and that is a function of how they are arranged and that is a function of a pattern and a pattern is information. Claiming to find a distinction between ?Origanal? digital information and a copy is silly. > Whatever these experiments might be, I'm afraid they would > have to violate the laws of physics first to prove that verification > of identity is impossible. I am unaware of any law of physics that makes it imposable to erase the information about which is the copy and which is the original. I believe you are conjuring up a new law of physics to justify your common everyday experience. I think it?s safe to say that up to now you have only found one chunk of matter that behaves in a Slawomirpaliwodaian way, but that is just a historical accident not a law of physics, it need not always be true. > Electrons flowing through the brain are not matter? You can also perform computations with photons and you can put lots of them in exactly the same place. But who cares where some stupid electrons are anyway, or does your mind feel trapped inside a dome made of bone? John K Clark jonkc at att.net From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 17:08:23 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:08:23 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] identity and copies, yet again References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net><414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <6.1.1.1.0.20040917110419.01af3ad8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > (Granted, it will tend to vanish once we have the opportunity to expand our > locus of identity beyond our skin, by running an interactive redundant > backup on some other substrate. But for now, it seems to me absurd to be > content or even eager to perish *now* on the off-chance that a > near-perfect--or even repaired and enhanced--copy of you will be compiled > elsewhere in the future. Good luck to him, I say, but his good fortune in > existing, should that come about, has very little to do with *me*, here and > now, here inside.) I agree with almost everything you say here. However, I'm not sure why you think that identity will "vanish once we have the opportunity to expand our locus of identity beyond our skin." Even if a mind process becomes bigger, more complex, or even stretched across planets, it will still depend on matter that powers that process, and matter doesn't vanish. Location of that matter in space-time can always be measured which makes personal identity objectively verifiable. Slawomir From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Fri Sep 17 17:21:35 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:21:35 -0700 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE010931D4@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Perhaps Slawomir feels that part of his 'identity' is encoded in the dynamics of moving chemicals and charges and that this dynamical information is lost during cryopreservation. I would tend to think that this is only a small fraction of the information encoded in brain making up the mind. Acy -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of John K Clark Sent: Friday, 17 September, 2004 12:00 To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) "Slawomir Paliwoda" > How would it feel to be the copy? It would feel exactly > the same as being the original. Yes, with emphasis on the word "exactly". > That doesn't mean I would be the original. OK, but if so then using nothing but your own words above I conclude that the distinction between the words "Copy" and "Original" is of trivial importance and not worth bothering about. > Your memories and mental abilities are merely your data, or *pattern* Merely?! Besides than Mrs. Lincoln how did you like the play? From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Sep 17 17:31:15 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 03:31:15 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nature magazine: BUSH vs KERRY on science Message-ID: <074801c49cdc$2254af90$ec202dcb@homepc> "In the build-up to the US presidential election, science is making a sizeable impact on the political agenda. But what will another four years of George W. Bush mean for science, compared with a term under Democratic challenger John Kerry? To find out, Nature has asked the two candidates 15 questions about their science policies." The following does not require a susbscription. http://www.nature.com/news/specials/uselection/index.html Climate change Kerry advocates stricter stance on greenhouse-gas emissions. Yucca Mountain Fate of nuclear waste dump divides candidates. Stem cells Candidates take opposing stances on medical research. Nuclear weapons research Need for new bomb tests questioned. Manipulation of science Bush administration stands accused of distorting science. ---------- Brett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hal at finney.org Fri Sep 17 17:57:09 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:57:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) Message-ID: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org> It's interesting how we talk past each other in these discussions. I think most people agree about the facts. If you made a perfect copy, it would feel "from the inside" indistinguishable from the original. If you had somehow made the copy in secret, perhaps while the original was sleeping, and then revived it without telling it about the process, the copy would not know or suspect that any such thing had happened. All of its memories and personality traits would be consistent with the hypothesis that it was the same person as the day before. No amount of introspection and self-examination would reveal that the process had occured. I don't mean to imply anything about the copy's reactions if and when it were presented with evidence about the process - some people would react very differently than others. But without that evidence, just based on its internal mental state, it would not suspect anything. Not everyone agrees with this, but most people in this discussion do. "Identity" is a slippery word. Many arguments devolve into debates about its meaning. But arguing the meaning of a word is pointless. Words are arbitrary strings of letters and there is no major problem if different people use a word with somewhat different meanings. What really matters is not the meaning of the word "identity". What matters is how people would react to these various kinds of transformations. People disagree about whether or how much they should be happy to be destroyed and have a perfect copy made. Some people are perfectly happy with this; others would only be happy if it were done in a certain way; and still others would be unhappy in any such situation. Many people believe that there is an underlying truth to this question - a "fact of the matter" about how someone should regard the prospect of this event. They argue and try to convince each other about what the truth is. But the strange thing is that, based on the agreed-upon facts above, it is very hard to know the truth. Even the copy who comes out of the experiment does not gain any knowledge about the truth. He knows no more coming out than the original did going in. If he was convinced of one position, presumably he still holds it. If he was uncertain, he will be no less uncertain afterwards. Given a situation where the truth is unobservable even to the person who is most intimately suited to observing it, I have to question whether there is really a truth to observe. I strongly suspect that there is no "fact of the matter" here about how one should view the prospect of destructive copying. It is ultimately a matter of taste. That is, there is no more objective truth here than there is in the question of whether coffee tastes better than tea. We have a strong instinct to preserve our lives, burned into us by billions of years of evolution. This gives us an overwhelming need to judge how safe various potential actions are. It may seem inconceivable that the most significant question of all, will we live or will we die, is not only unknown but unanswerable. This philosophical agnosticism violates our deepest instincts. Yet we did not evolve in a world where such copying was possible. This is something entirely new, something that our instincts about life and death were not adapted for. Never in the past would there have been any question, after some event, whether you had survived it! It is a new kind of transformation which does not fit into the neat categories of the past. And when we try to cram it into those groupings, it doesn't fit. I suspect that if we did live in a world where copying were commonplace, for a long enough time for evolution to exist, people would come to general agreement about how to view it, just as there is general agreement today that death is bad and living is good. The actual outcome might depend on the circumstances of how the copying worked, and other details. But I think we would see general philosophical agreement. Hal Finney From scerir at libero.it Fri Sep 17 18:01:13 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 20:01:13 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] identity and copies, yet again References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net><414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net><6.1.1.1.0.20040917110419.01af3ad8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <003601c49ce0$529859a0$46c31b97@administxl09yj> Location of that matter in space-time can always be measured which makes personal identity objectively verifiable. Slawomir 'Seeing Double' is a simple, nice, little book, by Peter Pesic, MIT press 2002. It is about 'shared identities' in physics, philosophy, and literature.'What, exactly, is my individuality? To what degree is it unique? To what degree can it be shared, and how?'. Another good reading would be the paper 'A quantum mechanical automaton' by David Z. Albert. There are many 'technical' editions. But that one in 'Philosophy of Science' vol. 54, n.4, December 1987, pages 577-585, is a simple one, and philosophical too. More or less the issue is this: a quantum mechanical automaton can think, can feel, can be (self-)conscious. Unfortunately he cannot communicate, to others, his own feelings, thoughts, (self-)measurements. Asher Peres pointed out that the possible reason might be the very difference between pre-measurements and measurements. s. 'I have hardly anything in common with myself ...." - Franz Kafka, 8 January 1914, Diaries 1914-1923 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 18:19:45 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:19:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nature magazine: BUSH vs KERRY on science In-Reply-To: <074801c49cdc$2254af90$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20040917181945.56479.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > "In the build-up to the US presidential election, science is making > a sizeable impact on the political agenda. But what will another > four years of George W. Bush mean for science, compared with > a term under Democratic challenger John Kerry? > > To find out, Nature has asked the two candidates 15 questions > about their science policies." > > The following does not require a susbscription. > > http://www.nature.com/news/specials/uselection/index.html > > > Climate change > Kerry advocates stricter stance on greenhouse-gas emissions. Not a scientifically defensible stance. > > Yucca Mountain > Fate of nuclear waste dump divides candidates. Opposition to Yucca Mountain is not a scientific stance. > > Stem cells > Candidates take opposing stances on medical research. Bush is not opposed to stem cell research per se, but opposed to spending taxpayer dollars on PUBLIC FUNDED RESEARCH on anything more than the stem cell lines already in existence at a previous date. > > Nuclear weapons research > Need for new bomb tests questioned. How many scientists believe that real world experiments are always preferable to simulations for good science? > > Manipulation of science > Bush administration stands accused of distorting science. And the luddite/green/socialist left is not? Excuse me, but it is the actions of the left that created the term "junk science", from mice getting cancer from 10 lb daily diets of saccharin, alar, and other prefectly safe substances, to Michio Kaku's opposition to the Cassini probe launch on nuclear risk grounds, to scientists getting forests put off limits because the are 'potential' habitat for endangered species, not ACTUALLY habitat, to all the bogus science in favor of the anthropogenic global warming theory. Gimme a freaking break. It is clear that the Kerry campaign presents a pro-science stance but is actually against REAL science and for junk science supported public hysteria. It is also clear that Bush properly believes that science is not something that the federal government should be funding, it is not explicitly given that power or responsibility in the US Constitution. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 19:19:05 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:19:05 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE010931D4@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: > Perhaps Slawomir feels that part of his 'identity' is encoded in the > dynamics of moving chemicals and charges and that this dynamical > information is lost during cryopreservation. Here's my precise definition of identity: Personal identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in space-time. (Dynamic of moving chemicals and charges, or a "flow of matter in space-time", as I call it, is the correct characterization of what I perceive as a process. Cryopreservation, if it works correctly, doesn't destroy that process, but merely pauses it. Since identity is grounded in that process, it won't dissolve as long as that process doesn't degenerate into a non-mind activity or perish altogether). Slawomir From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 20:52:54 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 13:52:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917045304.56406.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917205254.44877.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Why doesn't America start a long term program to > build an android for president? We could vote on > what > we want president android to look like and how to > speak. Program the android to tell the truth. Build > the android to be a combination of all races and to > have no gender. The android should have a term limit > chip implanted in its brain so it wont try to be > re-elected. Because people would be super-afraid - with good reason - that the few people who actually build the android would heavily bias it towards their own ideals, thus screwing the rest of Americans where they disagree with the builders. Guidelines to prevent this could be passed for major issues (like race and gender, as you mention), but this is impractical at best for covering every minor issue. And that's ignoring the whole "AIs are not human" issue. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 21:42:48 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:42:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917205254.44877.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040917214248.57541.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Trend Ologist wrote: > > Why doesn't America start a long term program to > > build an android for president? We could vote on > > what > > we want president android to look like and how to > > speak. Program the android to tell the truth. Build > > the android to be a combination of all races and to > > have no gender. The android should have a term limit > > chip implanted in its brain so it wont try to be > > re-elected. > > Because people would be super-afraid - with good > reason - that the few people who actually build the > android would heavily bias it towards their own > ideals, thus screwing the rest of Americans where they > disagree with the builders. Guidelines to prevent > this could be passed for major issues (like race and > gender, as you mention), but this is impractical at > best for covering every minor issue. > > And that's ignoring the whole "AIs are not human" > issue. Yes, some will complain that the android programming is not open source, while others will complain that its innermost thoughts will be easily gamable by enemy states if its programming is open source. Whether or not to equip it with sex organs or an appreciation for cigars and saxaphones, broccoli, jellybeans, or an aversion to reading, smiling, or speaking proper english, etc. Then again, anybody who has seen Kerry's sense of humor knows that we already have an android candidate.. ;) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 17 21:42:26 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:42:26 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0409161907476b5e67@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: (9/17/04 11:37) Emlyn wrote: >For these purposes of being family, perhaps also relevant wrt >inheritance, could a gay couple adopt each other, so that each was the >legal adopted child of the other? Crazy, but maybe it would achieve >family status? I seem to recall a case in Washington state where this actually happened. 30 second Google search didn't turn it up, though. There are plenty of other things, besides those gosh-darned Federal benefits, that gay couples don't get. But beyond that, I'll also point out that it takes a good attorney in order to get the contracts set up 'just so' in order for a gay couple to enjoy privileges any religious authority is empowered by the government to bestow upon heterosexual couples. I'd like to see the hue and cry that would be raised if het couples had to pay $400 on top of the optional things in order to tie the knot. :) Of course, the right answer is to get the government out of the "marriage" business. Treat it all with a standard contract between two (or more) consenting adults. Leave the the 'marriage' part to the churches. Its not even a state's right issue: the separation of church and state is one of those things that is absolutely inviolable (c.f. Roy Moore). The government has no authority to provide legal status to a religious institution, period. Brent -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From amara.graps at gmail.com Fri Sep 17 21:47:15 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:47:15 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Stem Cell Success: Thalassaemia Message-ID: This looks promising: "Thalassaemia - Child Cured with Stem Cells" http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2004/09_Settembre/07/labo.shtml Amara From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 17 22:05:11 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040917220511.80619.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > > Of course, the right answer is to get the government out of the > "marriage" business. Treat it all with a standard contract between > two (or more) consenting adults. Leave the the 'marriage' part to the > churches. Its not even a state's right issue: the separation of > church and state is one of those things that is absolutely inviolable > (c.f. Roy Moore). The government has no authority to provide legal > status to a religious institution, period. This is exactly correct. The problem is that the big brass rings that the gay couples complain about are primarily in the area of govenment entitlements. If they were not so insistent on getting those bennies, I'd believe the argument a bit better. If the gay community supported your position, they'd publicly say they don't care about inheritable social security benefits. There is a difference between legal marriage and lawful marriage. What the gay community wants is legal marriage. They can already lawfully marry. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Fri Sep 17 21:50:48 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Hurricanes and global warming Message-ID: <20040917215048.A747C57E2A@finney.org> With all of the hurricanes striking the United States this year, a question many people are asking is whether the increase is due to global warming. Of course this is a controversial issue but still it is useful to see what is the scientific consensus on the matter. I found two good pages, a nontechnical one at USA Today from last year, http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/wfaqhurw.htm, which points at a technical one by a hurricane researcher at http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/tcfaq/G3.html. The upshot is that no one really knows, but the imperfect modelling possible today indicates that global warming will have only a small effect on hurricanes. Although warmer oceans would superficially lead to more and stronger hurricanes, actually the strength depends on the difference between the ocean temperature and that of the upper atmosphere. With global warming, both will increase, but the precise details are hard to predict. At this point it looks like the two effects will largely cancel each other out. Why, then, are we getting so many hurricanes now? It appears that hurricane activity tends to be cyclic, with a 20-30 year period, and we are just coming out of a low that lasted from the 60s through the 90s. This suggests that we will see considerably higher hurricane activity in the next few decades. The worst year on record for hurricanes in the United States was 1886, when 7 hurricanes struck the country. So far this year there have been three. Of course you can't just cherry-pick your science. If you agree with this result, you ought to also respect the scientific consensus of a significant human contribution to global warming (and vice versa). Hal From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 17 23:56:55 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 16:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Anti-hurricane engineering Message-ID: <20040917235655.33745.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Given the amount of damage that hurricanes have done so far this year, and that many more hurricanes are expected in coming years, I wonder if it might make financial sense for fans of mega-engineering projects like arcologies to pitch them as storm shelters? Imagine, for example, a giant well 10 stories deep, ringed with apartments or other facilities (a few levels might be zoned for commercial use). Add in a spike down the center, mainly reserved for government use (as a visual reminder that a good government serves its citizens, and to reinforce open government principles). Most of the time, the well is open to the sky, but it does have a concrete lid that can shut to blot out inclement weather. This lid is shaped to rise above and drain away even flood-level water, but its real use is when a hurricane draws near: it is thick enough to withstand even a Cat 5 passing overhead. (It might need repairs afterwards, but it keeps everything beneath safe for the duration.) When fully closed, it attaches to the spike (and possibly other reinforcements) to prevent being simply pulled off by the wind; there might also be multiple layers of lids to prevent a single catastrophic breach. (If so, the innermost layer might be transparent glass or plastic - weaker than concrete, and perhaps with holes at ground level to allow access even when shut, but it alone would offer all the protection needed for a light passing rainstorm. It would also allow people to see if the second to last layer is breached during a Cat 5, to allow for further emergency measures, although sensors in the concrete itself would hopefully give more advanced warning.) Naturally, the structure could safely hold many more people than could comfortably live there year-round, so this could be an evacuation destination for existing cities if several of these were built around said cities. (Alternately, for less densely populated areas, one of these could be a central evacuation destination and regional government center for entire counties.) If high population densities are desired, I'm not sure it would be psychologically feasable to have much more than 10 stories and still have a functioning community, but one could build a cluster of these wells and have tunnels (for mass transit and for foot access) linking their lowest levels. (Motor vehicle access would be via nearby parking garages - again, mostly underground, perhaps with their entrances within the dome-protected area, but probably not as well protected as the main well itself. In emergencies, incoming motor vehicles in excess of the garage's capacity would be abandoned outside, or parked within the dome but above the garage, well back from the lip of the well.) Besides the humanitarian benefits, we would wind up with a very visible demonstration that technology saves lives, in the center of what is reportedly one of the more Luddite-friendly regions of the USA. Wire the place with fiber optics (from whatever 'net feed can be arranged, possibly involving the feed supplier managing the network under long-term lease), and build in a public-access cybercafe (next to the library and/or school) and maybe a few cleanrooms (to be leased for any manner of small-scale nano/bio work, be it production facilities or a startup's R&D space), to reinforce the effect. From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Sep 18 00:12:03 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 17:12:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917220511.80619.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040918001203.46176.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Brent Neal wrote: > > Of course, the right answer is to get the > government out of the > > "marriage" business. Treat it all with a standard > contract between > > two (or more) consenting adults. Leave the the > 'marriage' part to the > > churches. Its not even a state's right issue: the > separation of > > church and state is one of those things that is > absolutely inviolable > > (c.f. Roy Moore). The government has no authority > to provide legal > > status to a religious institution, period. > > This is exactly correct. The problem is that the big > brass rings that > the gay couples complain about are primarily in the > area of govenment > entitlements. If they were not so insistent on > getting those bennies, > I'd believe the argument a bit better. If the gay > community supported > your position, they'd publicly say they don't care > about inheritable > social security benefits. > > There is a difference between legal marriage and > lawful marriage. What > the gay community wants is legal marriage. They can > already lawfully marry. I'm a bit surprised none of the couples from San Fran are suing (or maybe they are, and I haven't heard about it) to have all government-recognized "marriages" revoked on the grounds that "marriage", in the common sense of the word (regardless of how any lawyer might try to define it) is a fundamentally religious concept. The plantiff might hint that a lot of government lawyers might have meant to say "civil union", which is explicitly a concept of law. Not sure if they'd get very far, but I'm surprised they have not tried. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 18 00:16:02 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:16:02 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Invasion was illegal: UN chief Message-ID: <07e501c49d14$aec7e860$ec202dcb@homepc> This may be of interest (or not). -------- http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,10789955%255E2703,00.html September 17, 2004 NEW YORK: The US decision to go to war in Iraq without the approval of the United Nations Security Council was illegal, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan declared yesterday. "I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time - without UN approval and much broader support from the international community," Mr Annan told the BBC World Service. The UN charter allows nations to take military action with Security Council approval as an enforcement action, such as during the Korean War and the 1991 Gulf War. But in 2003, in the build-up to the war on Iraq, the US dropped an attempt to get a Security Council resolution approving the invasion when it became clear it would not pass. At the time, Mr Annan underlined the lack of legitimacy for a war without UN approval, saying: "If the United States and others were to go outside the Security Council and take unilateral action, they would not be in conformity with the charter." Yesterday, after being asked three times whether the lack of council approval for the war meant it was illegal, Mr Annan told the BBC: "From our point of view and the UN charter point of view, it was illegal." John Howard disagreed. The Prime Minister, one of the strongest supporters of US President George W.Bush in the coalition of the willing that took part in the invasion, told local radio in Perth the war had been warranted. "I haven't seen that report but the legal advice we have, and I tabled it at the time, was the action was entirely valid in international law terms, and that was a legal opinion we obtained from the relevant people in Australia," he said. "There had been a series of Security Council resolutions and the advice we had was it was entirely legal." The British Government responded to Mr Annan by saying the invasion of Iraq was "not only lawful, but necessary". Mr Annan said the wave of violence now engulfing Iraq put in doubt the national elections scheduled for January. There could not be "credible elections if the security conditions continue as they are now". ------- Brett -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Sep 18 01:14:21 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:14:21 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917220511.80619.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/17/04 15:05) Mike Lorrey wrote: >This is exactly correct. The problem is that the big brass rings that >the gay couples complain about are primarily in the area of govenment >entitlements. If they were not so insistent on getting those bennies, >I'd believe the argument a bit better. If the gay community supported >your position, they'd publicly say they don't care about inheritable >social security benefits. I still cry 'bullshit' on your argument, Mike, for reasons previously stated. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Sep 18 01:38:22 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:38:22 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c5f$b654bf50$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: (9/16/04 19:40) Spike wrote: >Nor do I. The difference is one is tax-and-spend, >the other is cut-taxes-and-spend-anyway. What we >desperately need is cut-taxes-and-cut-spending. >Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you >will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. Spike, I voted for Harry Browne twice. I could have kicked myself for the last time, since it indirectly enabled the Shrub to be elected. Until the Libertarians get their shit together, stop jousting windmills, and start thinking practicality, they have no chance, IMO. I'll keep choosing the best of the Dems and the Reps until they do. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Sep 18 01:38:37 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 21:38:37 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917024453.31516.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/16/04 19:44) Mike Lorrey wrote: >POWER OF ATTORNEY Ever heard of it? With a living will, your power of >attorney assignee has the authority to visit you to ascertain your >level of care. Problem is you (or whoever you are talking about) didn't >use the right code words. You don't say "I'm his gay partner", you say >"I'm his power of attorney". Gay partner doesn't mean shit, sorry to >say, but power of attorney holds the keys to the kingdom. Sorry, you're incorrect. I have heard of PoA, since my father is an A and I hold one for both him and my mother: a health care PoA. If I were not their son, the PoA would let me tell the doctor what to do, but it would not compel the doctor or the hospital administrators to let me in the room. As I had already stated. Go to law school, then come back and talk. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 01:48:34 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 18:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Hurricanes and global warming In-Reply-To: <20040917215048.A747C57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040918014834.37664.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > With all of the hurricanes striking the United States this year, > a question many people are asking is whether the increase is due to > global warming. Of course this is a controversial issue but still it > is useful to see what is the scientific consensus on the matter. Such claims are one more proof that the chicken littles are cherry picking the data. The facts are clear: the first half of the 20th century saw TWICE as many class IV and V hurricanes as the second half of the 20th, yet the chicken littles claim that most of the warming happened in the 2nd half of the century. If warming were the cause, then the late 20th should have had more severe hurricanes than the early 20th. There is a significant relationship between sunspot cycle intensity and incidence of severe hurricanes. The second half of the 20th century saw sunspot cycles peaking at a minimum of 120 to as many as 200, while the cycles prior to that period, going back to the 18th century, rarely exceeded 100. The latest cycle, which began in 1996 and which we are on the tail end of now (we will reach minimum in 2006) has only peaked at 120. The one exception in the 2nd half of the 20th was the 1966-76 period which peaked at 110 and as I recall, people were talking about the next ice age at that point. Why does this all matter, you ask? Where is that flux going disproportionately, due to holes in the radiation belts at the poles? At the poles. The poles warm up more when the sun gets hotter, the equator doesn't warm up at all or much at all, so the thermal differential between the equator and the poles drops, and so the lesser energy differential means less severe storms. So, what is the proper conclusion? If we are truly entering a period of more severe storms, then it can only be because the poles are entering a cooling period due to lower solar output. If we are entering a true Maunder Minimum, expect to see the next sunspot cycle, due to peak in 2010, to reach a VERY low peak of between 70-100. Winters will get more severe, and we'll see more snowy blizzards at lower latitudes in the states. The Gulf Stream will speed up again, and Northern Europe will get socked in with a nicely temperate fog like it once was. Better put another log on the fire... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 02:16:08 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040918021608.14702.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > > Sorry, you're incorrect. I have heard of PoA, since my father is an A > and I hold one for both him and my mother: a health care PoA. If I > were not their son, the PoA would let me tell the doctor what to do, > but it would not compel the doctor or the hospital administrators to > let me in the room. As I had already stated. Go to law school, then > come back and talk. Really, now, and how would you be fully informed to tell the doctor what to do unless you could confer with your client??? I've been through it, in fact, in the last year, as my mother spent a month and a half in a drug induced coma while she was swollen up like jabba the hutt with 30 liters of fluid to keep her blood pressure up enough to stay alive, while her organs recovered from system wide peritonitis and the removal of most of her intestines. Do you really want to joust with me over this? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From brentn at freeshell.org Sat Sep 18 02:43:49 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 22:43:49 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040918021608.14702.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/17/04 19:16) Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Brent Neal wrote: >> >> Sorry, you're incorrect. I have heard of PoA, since my father is an A >> and I hold one for both him and my mother: a health care PoA. If I >> were not their son, the PoA would let me tell the doctor what to do, >> but it would not compel the doctor or the hospital administrators to >> let me in the room. As I had already stated. Go to law school, then >> come back and talk. > >Really, now, and how would you be fully informed to tell the doctor >what to do unless you could confer with your client??? I've been >through it, in fact, in the last year, as my mother spent a month and a >half in a drug induced coma while she was swollen up like jabba the >hutt with 30 liters of fluid to keep her blood pressure up enough to >stay alive, while her organs recovered from system wide peritonitis and >the removal of most of her intestines. Do you really want to joust with >me over this? Wow, Mike. Did you really think that a sufficiently graphic description would disguise the fact that the patient in question was your mother and not your partner? The former is not a problem, the latter would have been. And your health care PoA could not -compel- the doctor to let you in with your partner if your doctor felt that his or her diagnosis was enough to 'fully inform' you. Your only recourse would be to get a 2nd opinion from another doctor. And though I'm not sure about this, I think that part of the problem are the new HIPPA regulations. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 18 03:46:21 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:46:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917214248.57541.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040918034621.39129.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I was being sarcastic in the first post, I'm a grumpy middle-aged man. Anyway, Kerry fought a WAR, shouldn't nationalistic rightwingers like him? Real men don't eat quiche, they hide a plastic explosive inside it. > Yes, some will complain that the android programming > is not open > source, while others will complain that its > innermost thoughts will be > easily gamable by enemy states if its programming is > open source. > Whether or not to equip it with sex organs or an > appreciation for > cigars and saxaphones, broccoli, jellybeans, or an > aversion to reading, > smiling, or speaking proper english, etc. Then > again, anybody who has > seen Kerry's sense of humor knows that we already > have an android > candidate.. ;) > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 18 03:56:56 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:56:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] meant to send a private message In-Reply-To: <20040918021608.14702.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040918035656.39714.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Sorry, I accidentally sent mail to the list, when I promised to stay away temporarily from extropy-chat to avoid contributing to over-politicization of it. Be back around the end of October. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Sat Sep 18 07:04:11 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 00:04:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Hurricanes and global warming Message-ID: <20040918070411.AC6A557E2A@finney.org> Mike Lorrey writes: > Such claims are one more proof that the chicken littles are cherry > picking the data. The facts are clear: the first half of the 20th > century saw TWICE as many class IV and V hurricanes as the second half > of the 20th, yet the chicken littles claim that most of the warming > happened in the 2nd half of the century. If warming were the cause, > then the late 20th should have had more severe hurricanes than the > early 20th. Actually if you look at http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml you can can count 10 class IV and V hurricanes from 1900-1950 and 7 from 1950-2000, which is not twice as many. As the articles I linked to explain, the scientific consensus is that global warming is not linked to hurricane frequency. So if we respect the scientific consensus, which I would advise, we will not be surprised that there is no correlation with temperature. Of course, if we believe what science tells us, we will also accept that humans are making a significant contribution to global warming, which may not be so palatable. > There is a significant relationship between sunspot cycle intensity and > incidence of severe hurricanes. The second half of the 20th century saw > sunspot cycles peaking at a minimum of 120 to as many as 200, while the > cycles prior to that period, going back to the 18th century, rarely > exceeded 100. The latest cycle, which began in 1996 and which we are on > the tail end of now (we will reach minimum in 2006) has only peaked at > 120. The one exception in the 2nd half of the 20th was the 1966-76 > period which peaked at 110 and as I recall, people were talking about > the next ice age at that point. http://science.msfc.nasa.gov/ssl/pad/solar/images/zurich.gif shows a graph of sunspot activity for the past 250 years. I don't see that good a fit to the hurricane numbers. According to the hurricane table, the decades with the most major hurricanes were the 10s, 30s, 40s and 50s. The first three had relatively low solar activity, fitting your theory, but the 50s saw the highest sunspot levels recorded on the chart, around 250, and the late 40s were high too, over 200. > Why does this all matter, you ask? > Where is that flux going disproportionately, due to holes in the > radiation belts at the poles? At the poles. The poles warm up more when > the sun gets hotter, the equator doesn't warm up at all or much at all, > so the thermal differential between the equator and the poles drops, > and so the lesser energy differential means less severe storms. This doesn't make sense. While it's true that active sunspot cycles correlate with a hotter sun, if the sun is hotter, the whole earth is going to get hotter. There's no reason the energy would go to the poles. The only energy that might be preferentially deposited there would be charged particles, but that is a small fraction of the energy from solar infrared and visible radiation. The auroras are pretty but they don't make you sweat. > So, what is the proper conclusion? If we are truly entering a period of > more severe storms, then it can only be because the poles are entering > a cooling period due to lower solar output. If we are entering a true > Maunder Minimum, expect to see the next sunspot cycle, due to peak in > 2010, to reach a VERY low peak of between 70-100. Winters will get more > severe, and we'll see more snowy blizzards at lower latitudes in the > states. The Gulf Stream will speed up again, and Northern Europe will > get socked in with a nicely temperate fog like it once was. I don't see any reason to expect this. Looking at the sunspot chart, the last peak was a little lower the the previous two, but the one before those had been an even bigger drop. There is quite a bit of fluctuation from cycle to cycle, but nothing in the pattern strongly suggests that the next few cycles will be extremely low. Hal From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 18:38:12 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 14:38:12 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><002501c49c72$0521ea10$50f54d0c@hal2001> <018a01c49cd7$e2018a70$e4ff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: > "Slawomir Paliwoda" > > > How would it feel to be the copy? It would feel exactly > > the same as being the original. > > Yes, with emphasis on the word ?exactly?. > > > That doesn't mean I would be the original. > > OK, but if so then using nothing but your own words above I conclude that > the distinction between the words ?Copy? and ?Original? is of trivial > importance and not worth bothering about. The most important idea I want to convey to people is that the copy and the original never share the same subjective experience. If you destroy the original mind process that enables that subjective experience, then that experience won't automatically merge with, or become, subjective experience of the clone. Imagine yourself as an original, and a clone, and focus your attention entirely on your subjective input. What is your subjective experience, as an original, when your brain disintegrates? Is it not nothingness? Isn't the existence of the clone completely irrelevant as to what you experience as an original? > > mind is a tangible process. It's an activity of matter > > But what makes this particular activity interesting is not the matter, there > is absolutely nothing special about those atoms, Did I ever claim that there is? Of course there isn't. That's why I'm talking about the *activity* of matter. We're in complete agreement here. > the interesting thing is > what they do and that is a function of how they are arranged and that is > a function of a pattern and a pattern is information. This is the source of our disagreement - grounding the concept of identity in the accurate definition of what mind is. Mind is not a function of a static arrangement of data, but a function of a process that operates on that data. Example: Your brain is frozen. The arrangement of your mind data remains the same as before the freezing so if a mind were a function of how mind pattern is arranged, as you say, then how come you wouldn't be able to form thoughts or be conscious? It would be precisely because your mind process was stopped. Without it, mind doesn't exist. > > Whatever these experiments might be, I'm afraid they would > > have to violate the laws of physics first to prove that verification > > of identity is impossible. > > I am unaware of any law of physics that makes it imposable to erase the > information about which is the copy and which is the original. Ah, of course it would be impossible to verify someone's identity if you destroyed the log which measured mind process' trajectory in space-time, but that would also be cheating. Your initial claim was that there could exist no method to objectively verify one's identity. By providing theoretically possible mechanism that could objectively verify identity, I hope I've proven your original assumption false. > > Electrons flowing through the brain are not matter? > > You can also perform computations with photons and you can put lots of them > in exactly the same place. Could you superimpose two separate mind processes so that their 4-D parameter values would be exactly the same? Slawomir From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 19:39:43 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:39:43 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: Hal wrote: > Given a situation where the truth is unobservable even to the person who > is most intimately suited to observing it, I have to question whether > there is really a truth to observe. It is true that one cannot subjectively verify his personal identity. However, as an alternative, in one of my previous posts I provide theoretically possible mechanism that could always verify identity objectively. Slawomir From velvethum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 17 16:48:03 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 12:48:03 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: > So, without referring to how it came to be, but only considering how it > is experienced, what is the measurable difference between being the > original versus being the copy? > > - Jef I answered this question in my reply to John K. Clark: > 1) Prove to me that you are the original and not the copy. Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. Therefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting a log detailing locations of my mind in space and time, which will show different values for x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who claims to be me. As long as I can show that the set of space-time position parameters for any two minds never share the same exact values, I will always be able to prove identity of any mind. Slawomir From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 18 08:47:49 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:47:49 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <08d201c49d5c$2d62ac90$ec202dcb@homepc> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > > So, without referring to how it came to be, but only considering how it > > is experienced, what is the measurable difference between being the > > original versus being the copy? > > > > - Jef > > I answered this question in my reply to John K. Clark: > > > 1) Prove to me that you are the original and not the copy. > > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will > necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. >Therefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting a log > detailing locations of my mind in space and time, which will show >different values for x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who > claims to be me. As long as I can show that the set of space-time > position parameters for any two minds never share the same exact > values, I will always be able to prove identity of any mind. I think you and I are in agreement Slawomir. I think you system is cogent and has better explanatory power and utility in that it suggests ways by which progress may be made. I suspect that this recommendation will be unnecessary, that you will probably do it anyway, but I think you should write down in one place your own view of cryonics defining your key terms "identity" "mind" "person" etc (because these words are slippery and will be slippery again - Descartes for instance assumed a mind body split but had in mind a different use of the word "mind".) When you first brought it up I couldn't immediately see that it was necessary and it had connotations of ghost in the machine. That clearly is not what you meant. I'd also suggest you keep the questions that you have been asked in a sort of FAQ. Now about your above comment. I want to get clarification. The time parameter is clear necessary and I agree. Your x, y, z 3D spatial parameters are point spaces I presume? Even though the mind is not a point. It may have some conceptual spacial midpoint. The centre point of an inflated balloon actually has no balloon there. But the balloon boundaries like a brain's boundary delimit the balloon. That is, it is not each atoms that it is relevant to track they can come and go (and indeed each atom could have an identity and trajectory of its own in and out of the personal identity but thats the identity of an atom not the identity of the "person"). Dito synapses. You cannot say exactly how large the mind is spatially (volumetrically) can you? Nor do I think you need to at this stage. Though we can upper limit it as the size of the brain. And lower limit it as greater than zero. ie The mind process will always by spatial definition run in some positive volume of space. There may be some parts of what we understand to be the brain which are actually superfluous spatially to the region in which the mind process works. As we discover what these are we may scientifically reduce the space of the mind-process but never below zero. Agreed? Or is some of the above a misunderstanding of your position. Brett Paatsch From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 18 08:53:59 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:53:59 +0200 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <001a01c49d5d$28ad9380$abb01b97@administxl09yj> > It is true that one cannot subjectively > verify his personal identity. > Slawomir What about the environment? It seems that the environment keeps records of your personal identity, and kicks back. At least if there is a consistent history of your personal identity. If there is not a consistent history (that is to say there is a perfect clone walking around) you may be in trouble, but only partially, or curious. And if there is not an environment ... you are also in trouble, because you're alone. s. From sentience at pobox.com Sat Sep 18 09:50:38 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 05:50:38 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> Message-ID: <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will > necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. Therefore, I > will be able to prove my originality by presenting a log detailing > locations of my mind in space and time, which will show different values for > x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who claims to be me. As long as I > can show that the set of space-time position parameters for any two minds > never share the same exact values, I will always be able to prove identity > of any mind. This definition is trivial to deflate. Just suppose that we interlace two sets of neurons and synapses, neither interconnected with the other, but both occupying the same volume of space. Better yet, suppose that we run two minds on the same neurons, the neurons having time-sharing registers that swap between the two identities twenty times per second. How does your spatial algorithm distinguish between these two minds? Try to solve this problem and you will instantly be entangled in defining continuity of computation, which is, of course, what uploading and splitting is all about. I would also be interested in hearing how you deal with many-worlds theory, under which "you" are constantly branching into different volumes of quantum configuration space, even as you remain in what an observer in a certain exactly right frame of reference would deem to be the "same" spatial location. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 18 10:56:39 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:56:39 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> Message-ID: <08fc01c49d6e$2d078f10$ec202dcb@homepc> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > > > > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > > parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will > > necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. Therefore, I > > will be able to prove my originality by presenting a log detailing > > locations of my mind in space and time, which will show different values for > > x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who claims to be me. As long as I > > can show that the set of space-time position parameters for any two minds > > never share the same exact values, I will always be able to prove identity > > of any mind. > > This definition is trivial to deflate. Just suppose that we interlace two > sets of neurons and synapses, neither interconnected with the other, but > both occupying the same volume of space. I don't want to be rude in interjecting, but I'll do it anyway because I like the idea that a good idea can catch on because its a good idea. So I want to see if I can work within Slawomir system to rebut the challenges. I think the rebuttal to this is trivial. They are not actually occupying the same space simply by being interlaced. Interlace the fingers of your two hands and each hand including fingers each still has its own space - the space beneath the skin. > Better yet, suppose that we run > two minds on the same neurons, the neurons having time-sharing registers > that swap between the two identities twenty times per second. How does > your spatial algorithm distinguish between these two minds? Its not only a spatial algorithm. Its a space-time one. Different minds would exist only for so long as they occupy the substrate uninterrupted (ie, between the switching periods). This is a quirky situation but then the scenario Eliezer is proposing is quirky. > Try to solve this problem and you will instantly be entangled in defining > continuity of computation, which is, of course, what uploading and > splitting is all about. I see no problem. > I would also be interested in hearing how you deal with many-worlds theory, > under which "you" are constantly branching into different volumes of > quantum configuration space, even as you remain in what an observer in a > certain exactly right frame of reference would deem to be the "same" > spatial location. I will leave this one for Slawomir, I don't regard many-worlds theory as something that needs to be accomodated or is worth accomodating. Many-worlds theory looks like new age nonsense to me. As if William of Occam ideas never existed in the worlds of many-worlders. Brett From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 11:03:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:03:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040918110336.77724.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > > Wow, Mike. Did you really think that a sufficiently graphic > description would disguise the fact that the patient in question was > your mother and not your partner? The former is not a problem, the > latter would have been. And your health care PoA could not -compel- > the doctor to let you in with your partner if your doctor felt that > his or her diagnosis was enough to 'fully inform' you. Your only > recourse would be to get a 2nd opinion from another doctor. > > And though I'm not sure about this, I think that part of the problem > are the new HIPPA regulations. My sister, an executive with the Eastern Connecticut Health Care Network (a chain of about 6 hospitals) is an expert on HIPPA and HCPA. There were a number of times during the intenstive care period of mum's hospitalization where my sister, who had the PoA, was the only member of the family ALLOWED to see her. The rest of us were stuck in the waiting room. Now, this sort of policy issue MAY be more related to the sort of hospitals we are talking about. Mum was at Dartmouth/Hitchcock Medical Center, which is affiliated with Dartmouth Medical School and Dartmouth College. I would not be surprised if Catholic affiliated hospitals, and other religiously affiliated hospitals, for instance, had a bit more stringent view of things, and might be reading the regs differently. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 11:08:03 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Hurricanes and global warming In-Reply-To: <20040918070411.AC6A557E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040918110803.39852.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > > I don't see any reason to expect this. Looking at the sunspot chart, > the last peak was a little lower the the previous two, but the one > before > those had been an even bigger drop. There is quite a bit of > fluctuation > from cycle to cycle, but nothing in the pattern strongly suggests > that the next few cycles will be extremely low. Solar astronomers seem to believe that the scheduling of the peaks and their intensity tends to predict the next peak. Early peaks tend to be lower, etc. They are predicting a 2010 peak, only four years after the start of the next cycle in 2006, which they predict will be lower than the most recent peak. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 11:54:04 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 04:54:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040918034621.39129.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040918115404.88544.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > I was being sarcastic in the first post, I'm a grumpy > middle-aged man. > Anyway, Kerry fought a WAR, shouldn't nationalistic > rightwingers like him? Real men don't eat quiche, they > hide a plastic explosive inside it. Nope. Kerry went over there with the stated intent of being "the next JFK", as he bragged to many fellow officers. He intentionally and unncessarily risked his men in order to build a military resume. He then came back, threw away his medals (actually they were someone else's medals, but he was still happy to dishonor them), testified before congress that he and everyone else there had committed war crimes, and was a participant in a VVAW meeting (as a member of the executive committee) plebiscite in late 1971 to vote on a plan to assassinate pro-war US Senators. This vote alone, even if he voted against the plan, was a very severe violation of both the 14th amendment prohibition against rebels holding office, and the Neutrality Act of 1940, which strips US citizenship of anyone who participated in such events. Legally, he is therefore an illegitimate US Senator and Presidential candidate. Some people called Clinton a commie coddler for going to Moscow while at Oxford and organizing anti-war protests overseas. Kerry went even further and is an actual criminal, though he'll never be charged in any court of law. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From megao at sasktel.net Sat Sep 18 14:21:33 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 09:21:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BUSH science vs KERRY science References: <074801c49cdc$2254af90$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <414C446D.4408CE86@sasktel.net> After reading the bio I have an opinion which would be based upon a purely self centered view as a Canadian. Some of Kerry's pro-blue sky science would be good for the USA. If one is speaking for other countries however, it would be good to see the USA not move forward on bio-technology based on novel cell-based technology. The pro-GM stance would allow the big economics to move that forward in the USA It would thus allow other countries to exploit the technologies the USA does not wish to properly develop and thus gain a lead over the USA in this area. The GM bio-pharma movement is already well underway so it is time to see it cully commercialized. However it appears that big pharma has learned one lesson from the anti-GM crop side, and that is not to use mainstream crops. An article in sept issue of Biophar Intl. Magazine http://www.biopharminternational.com entitled "green plants as medicine factories" leads me to believe that the minor crop and weed species will become the hosts for biopharmaceuticals. Mint, cannabis, thistle, dandelion, kochia, pigweed, caragana trees, hawthorn trees, mint, and possibly perennial cereals are all suited by bio-pathways and as orphan crops would have lettle or no opposition by groups protecting their existance. As well most of these are already considered pests and exterminated on sight. As well the term "weed" denotes a plant that can survive and produce under rigorous and harsh conditions. If you have a multibillion dollar cash crop which species would you want for host a corn crop which is suceptible to drought, fungus, weatherdamage, insect damage or Kochia which can motor on through irregardless of the above as well as grow in saline soild which would make any other crop a marginal producer. A "Big Oil" and High Barrel cost would enable large windfarm developments on the Canadian Prairies to be economic. Kerry would be very good for the USA economy in the longer run so if I was a USA Citizen I would most certainly vote for him. If I was a Canadian or japanese or chinese or european I would push the USA voters to vot for Bush and take advantage of the economic weaknesses he has created by favoring only certain parts of the economy to the detriment of others. N'est Pas? Pharmer Mo from LA North , Eh! Brett Paatsch wrote: > "In the build-up to the US presidential election, science is making a > sizeable impact on the political agenda. But what will anotherfour > years of George W. Bush mean for science, compared witha term under > Democratic challenger John Kerry? > > To find out, Nature has asked the two candidates 15 questionsabout > their science policies." The following does not require a > susbscription. http://www.nature.com/news/specials/uselection/index.html Climate > change > Kerry advocates stricter stance on greenhouse-gas emissions. > Yucca Mountain > Fate of nuclear waste dump divides candidates.Stem cells > Candidates take opposing stances on medical research.Nuclear weapons > research > Need for new bomb tests questioned. > Manipulation of science > Bush administration stands accused of distorting science. > ----------Brett > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jonkc at att.net Sat Sep 18 15:31:37 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:31:37 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] identity and copies, yet again References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net><414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <6.1.1.1.0.20040917110419.01af3ad8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <00f401c49d94$c5f365c0$74f44d0c@hal2001> "Damien Broderick" > Obviously a nearly-exact copy would *feel*, from inside, > just like you do now. The copy would also serve everyone > else's needs as well as the original did. None of that has > the slightest bearing on whether the original should be > complicit, indeed happy, in its own termination. If I understand your position correctly you concede that 2 months ago somebody could have made a near exact copy of you and destroyed the original and neither you, the present day Damien Broderick, nor any of your friends would notice the slightest difference. However even though you can clearly remember being a child you also insist that the Damien of old is dead, even deader than our 10 year old selves is for all of us. Well, if you let me do it once I imagine you'll let me do it again so if one month ago I made a copy of the copy and killed the "original copy" I don't think your response would change much. Let's take this process to the limit and see where it leads. I'll let you operate for exactly one nanosecond and then I'll make a copy and destroy the previous copy; I will do this many millions of trillions of times. Now a billionth of a second is far too short to form a conscious thought, and yet Damien Broderick, a dead man by your reckoning, is conscious, happy, healthy, and wise. Something is continuous, how can that be? > What is so hard to understand about this distinction? It's hard to understand because it seems to me you are making a distinction without a difference, in fact I'm not even sure you're making a distinction. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 15:57:14 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 08:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <00f401c49d94$c5f365c0$74f44d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20040918155714.73601.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > "Damien Broderick" > > > Obviously a nearly-exact copy would *feel*, from inside, > > just like you do now. The copy would also serve everyone > > else's needs as well as the original did. None of that has > > the slightest bearing on whether the original should be > > complicit, indeed happy, in its own termination. > > If I understand your position correctly you concede that 2 months ago > somebody could have made a near exact copy of you and destroyed the > original > and neither you, the present day Damien Broderick, nor any of your > friends > would notice the slightest difference. You misunderstand, I think, what Damien is saying quite clearly: if you destroy the original, the original most certainly would feel quite differently, as in not any more, and notice the difference, at least for a split second while you are killing him. THe originals absence from the mortal coil would be distinctly different for him than when he was present and had something to say about your opinion. Furthermore, the original would say he doesn't want to die, if he has Damiens opinion, while the copy might say: I am the copy, therefore I do not deserve to live... and therefore kill himself. THis would make the copy quite distinctly different from the original. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From velvethum at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 16:51:36 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:51:36 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net><414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net><414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <08d201c49d5c$2d62ac90$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: > > I answered this question in my reply to John K. Clark: > > > > > 1) Prove to me that you are the original and not the copy. > > > > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > > parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will > > necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. > >Therefore, I will be able to prove my originality by presenting a log > > detailing locations of my mind in space and time, which will show > >different values for x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who > > claims to be me. As long as I can show that the set of space-time > > position parameters for any two minds never share the same exact > > values, I will always be able to prove identity of any mind. > > I think you and I are in agreement Slawomir. I think you system is > cogent and has better explanatory power and utility in that it suggests > ways by which progress may be made. > > I suspect that this recommendation will be unnecessary, that you will > probably do it anyway, but I think you should write down in one place > your own view of cryonics defining your key terms "identity" "mind" > "person" etc > I'd also suggest you keep the questions that you have been asked > in a sort of FAQ. It's a good idea and I've thought about doing something like that for few years now. The reason why I haven't done that yet is people's apathy when it comes to thinking about PI, perhaps developed over the years of frustrating and noisy discussions about identity. It seems like whenever the issue is raised, people are convinced the topic is too difficult and messy and that no solutions exist. And, to my amazement, this applies to transhumanists too. How do you talk to a person who claims "identity is an illusion"? I may think that, if given few hours with any rational person, I would have an excellent chance of explaining the concepts, but if I know I can't make that person even agree to really listen in the first place, my chances of explaining anything to anyone will be very small. When I figure out how to make people pay attention, that's when I'll commit to writing it *all* down. Right now I don't think my ideas about PI would have enough audience to justify my future effort to write them all down. I'm not going to commit to writing something that would need to be the size of a small book if I know people won't read it, though maybe an evolving FAQ model will work. Thanks for the suggestion. > Now about your above comment. I want to get clarification. > > The time parameter is clear necessary and I agree. Your x, y, z > 3D spatial parameters are point spaces I presume? Yes. > Even though > the mind is not a point. It may have some conceptual spacial > midpoint. The centre point of an inflated balloon actually has no > balloon there. But the balloon boundaries like a brain's boundary > delimit the balloon. Mind is indeed not a point. What I mean by a mind process is the sum of all the little processes inside the brain that contribute to emergence of mind. My conceptual model of an overall mind process is a cloud of bubbling electrons in space delimited by the space occupied by the brain. (Incidentally, you may notice that this model focuses on the activity that will always be substrate-independent). Therefore, mind is not a point, but, conceptually, a symphony of points that these electrons map in space and time. By tracking the trajectories of all the matter points in space-time that contribute to the emergence of mind, I'm able to track the trajectory of the overall mind process, i.e., the location of mind itself. > That is, it is not each atoms that it is relevant to track they can come > and go (and indeed each atom could have an identity and trajectory > of its own in and out of the personal identity but that's the identity of > an atom not the identity of the "person"). Dito synapses. Exactly. This is where the benefits of grounding identity in a mind, and defining that mind as a process, come in. I track the trajectories of only what's relevant to the process because it is that activity of matter that causes a mind, not the inactive matter itself. > > You cannot say exactly how large the mind is spatially (volumetrically) > can you? The issue of size is orthogonal to what matters the most for defining identity, namely, where and when that mind is in the Universe. >The mind process will always by spatial definition run in some > positive volume of space. ..and time. > > There may be some parts of what we understand to be the brain > which are actually superfluous spatially to the region in which > the mind process works. As we discover what these are we may > scientifically reduce the space of the mind-process but never below > zero. > > Agreed? Or is some of the above a misunderstanding of your > position. I agree completely. Since I only care about identity of the mind, as opposed to the identity of a kidney or leg, I only care about the identity of things that generate that mind. What causes a mind to emerge is an overall mind process (=the sum of all the little processes defined by the flow of matter in space-time inside the brain or future computational mediums suited to perform mind processes), so I only need to focus on those *particular* flows of matter that contribute to that mind process. For example, if an electron at, say, X, Y, Z, and 477th femtosecond position moves to X, Y, Z, and 478th femtosecond, and that flow turns out to be contributing to a non-mind process, then neither that particular flow, nor the electron in it, need to be considered during identity verification (because maybe that particular flow occurred inside the heart muscle). Slawomir From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 17:12:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:12:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Hurricanes and global warming In-Reply-To: <20040918070411.AC6A557E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040918171218.81896.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > > Actually if you look at http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/pastdec.shtml you can > can count 10 class IV and V hurricanes from 1900-1950 and 7 from > 1950-2000, which is not twice as many. Being pedantically strict about years 1-50 and 51-99 is a bit passe, don't you think? http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/H/HURRICANE_CYCLE?SITE=FLPAP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jonkc at att.net Sat Sep 18 17:16:50 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:16:50 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net><414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> <08fc01c49d6e$2d078f10$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <031f01c49da3$50f57470$74f44d0c@hal2001> "Brett Paatsch" > the rebuttal to this is trivial. They are not actually > occupying the same space simply by being interlaced. Refuting the notion that location of the brain is the key to identity hardly seems necessary as the mind need not, and in fact usually does not, have the slightest idea how the brain works, and in fact the mind may not even know where the brain is; however if you insist on a physical counterexample, simply replace the ions in the human brain and the electrons in most computers for different computational elements, photons, you can put billions of photons in the same place at the same time and they won?t mind a bit. That means lots of brains at the same place at the same time. If you nevertheless insist that location will explain everything then you will have to do what so many others in this discussion have done, invent new laws of physics. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From velvethum at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 17:23:14 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:23:14 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org> <001a01c49d5d$28ad9380$abb01b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: > > It is true that one cannot subjectively > > verify his personal identity. > > Slawomir > > What about the environment? It seems that > the environment keeps records of your > personal identity, and kicks back. > And if there > is not an environment ... you are also in trouble, > because you're alone. > s. What you call "environment" (=other people's perception of who they think you are), I define as a unique location of a mind process in space-time. It's a classic grounding problem. You ground your identity in the society's opinion of you which makes that identity, one, dependent on the existence of other people, two, always unstable. My definition of identity is grounded in the mind process and its unique location in space and time, which makes that identity always stable and verifiable even if I'm the only person in the Universe. Our referents for what we both decided to call "identity" are simply different. Slawomir From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Sep 18 18:04:56 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:04:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] BUSH science vs KERRY science In-Reply-To: <414C446D.4408CE86@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20040918180456.93848.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > Kerry would be very good for the USA economy in the > longer run so if I > was a USA Citizen I would most certainly vote for > him. > If I was a Canadian or japanese or chinese or > european I would push the > USA > voters to vot for Bush and take advantage of the > economic weaknesses he > has > created by favoring only certain parts of the > economy to the detriment > of others. Actually, more non-American citizens would rather Kerry get elected, even if he would be good for the American economy. They're more worried about their own hides than about putting America down. From jonkc at att.net Sat Sep 18 18:05:04 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:05:04 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><002501c49c72$0521ea10$50f54d0c@hal2001><018a01c49cd7$e2018a70$e4ff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <036601c49daa$2a5e97e0$74f44d0c@hal2001> "Slawomir Paliwoda" > Isn't the existence of the clone completely irrelevant as to what > you experience as an original? Nope, the reason is that you don?t have thoughts, you are thoughts, and it doesn?t really matter what hardware is thinking you. > Your initial claim was that there could exist no method to objectively > verify one's identity. My claim was and still is that I can devise thought experiments where the two individuals involved do not know which is the copy and which is the original, nor does anyone else, nor will anyone ever know. > Could you superimpose two separate mind processes so that their 4-D > parameter values would be exactly the same? Yep. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Sep 18 18:16:55 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 11:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040918115404.88544.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040918181655.12823.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > testified > before congress that he and everyone else there had > committed war > crimes, and was a participant in a VVAW meeting (as > a member of the > executive committee) plebiscite in late 1971 to vote > on a plan to > assassinate pro-war US Senators. > > This vote alone, even if he voted against the plan, > was a very severe > violation of both the 14th amendment prohibition > against rebels holding > office, and the Neutrality Act of 1940, which strips > US citizenship of > anyone who participated in such events. Legally, he > is therefore an > illegitimate US Senator and Presidential candidate. Legally, unless he aided and abetted actual action to do the assassination - merely voting for it (and especially voting against it) does not count - he committed no crime. Whether or not this should be the case is another story. But it's been well established that intent alone is insufficient. (Granted, there have been prosecutions based on the most minimal of deeds. If you could find some deed to charge him on, you might have a case. What you have cited here is not actually illegal behavior. From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 18 18:25:11 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 13:25:11 -0500 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <036601c49daa$2a5e97e0$74f44d0c@hal2001> References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <002501c49c72$0521ea10$50f54d0c@hal2001> <018a01c49cd7$e2018a70$e4ff4d0c@hal2001> <036601c49daa$2a5e97e0$74f44d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040918131631.01a1dec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 02:05 PM 9/18/2004 -0400, John K Clark wrote: >My claim was and still is that I can devise thought experiments where the >two individuals involved do not know which is the copy and which is the >original, nor does anyone else, nor will anyone ever know. I can devise thought experiments where you are brainwashed into being the Manchurian Candidate and tap-dance on stage while singing like a canary but that doesn't mean I'd be prepared to be murdered so someone quite like me might possibly be recompiled in 100 years time. It doesn't even mean that I'd be greatly motivated to spend money now on the prospect that after I die by natural causes another version of my brain/body might be constructed. And so we return to the usual antinomy, and nobody seems likely to change his mind (an amusing phrase under the circumstances). Damien Broderick From velvethum at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 18:34:21 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 14:34:21 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> Message-ID: > Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > > > > Suppose the location of any mind in the future is recorded using 4 > > parameters (x,y,z,t). At the moment of creation, my clone's mind will > > necessarily occupy a different location than my original mind. Therefore, I > > will be able to prove my originality by presenting a log detailing > > locations of my mind in space and time, which will show different values for > > x, y, z, and t from the values of someone who claims to be me. As long as I > > can show that the set of space-time position parameters for any two minds > > never share the same exact values, I will always be able to prove identity > > of any mind. > > This definition is trivial to deflate. Just suppose that we interlace two > sets of neurons and synapses, neither interconnected with the other, but > both occupying the same volume of space. Better yet, suppose that we run > two minds on the same neurons, the neurons having time-sharing registers > that swap between the two identities twenty times per second. How does > your spatial algorithm distinguish between these two minds? The algorithm distinguishes between two minds by tracking their unique trajectories not only in space, but also in time. Your argument *seems* to rest on the assumption that just because the space-time parameters of two minds register values that are very close, the trajectories will be indistinguishable. Even though the values are going to be very close, they will never be the same. Let's use your example where minds A and B share the same computational medium whose proverbial "CPU" swaps two identities every 1/20s. The position of an electron that flows as part of mind A is recorded every femtosecond. At time t1, the electron is at x, y, z, 1, and we record that position in the log. Then, at time t2, we make a new entry, x+1,y+1,z+1, 2. The entries pile up until CPU switches to mind B after 1/20s. Now, suppose that an electron flowing as part of B makes the journey from x, y, z, to x+1, y+1, z+1, just like the previous electron. However, this particular electron's time parameter is not going to be 1 or 2 anymore. A's record will then necessarily differ from B's reflecting different trajectories of these two minds in space-time. Now, think of the overall process and all the positions mapped by all points of matter whose flow in space-time leads to the emergence of a mind. Unless you find a way to make A and B's matter flow exactly within the same location AND time, I will always be able to verify their identities by investigating A and B's recorded trajectories in space-time. Slawomir From sim at plaything.co.uk Sat Sep 18 18:48:29 2004 From: sim at plaything.co.uk (Sim Bamford) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:48:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <200409181800.i8II0L013770@tick.javien.com> References: <200409181800.i8II0L013770@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <414C82FD.3030002@plaything.co.uk> Mike Lorrey said: >Furthermore, the original would say he doesn't want to die, if he has Damiens opinion, while the copy might say: I am the copy, therefore I do not deserve to live... and therefore kill himself. THis would make the copy quite distinctly different from the original.< If a group of friends whom you trust completely sat you down today and convinced you that actually you were a copy of Mike Lorrey, not the original, would you kill yourself? Sim From velvethum at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 19:06:01 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:06:01 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net><414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> <08fc01c49d6e$2d078f10$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: > > I would also be interested in hearing how you deal with many-worlds > theory, > > under which "you" are constantly branching into different volumes of > > quantum configuration space, even as you remain in what an observer in a > > certain exactly right frame of reference would deem to be the "same" > > spatial location. > > I will leave this one for Slawomir, I don't regard many-worlds theory as > something that needs to be accomodated or is worth accomodating. My view on this, which seems not all that different from yours, is, if nobody can present an argument showing that objective verification of identity is impossible in *this* universe without resorting to other universes, then, perhaps there might be a point in investigating what would happen to identity viewed from the alternative perspectives. We're not there yet, I don't think. :) Slawomir From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 19:17:11 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:17:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <414C82FD.3030002@plaything.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040918191711.20782.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sim Bamford wrote: > Mike Lorrey said: > > >Furthermore, the original would say he doesn't want to die, if he > has > Damiens opinion, while the copy might say: I am the copy, therefore I > do not deserve to live... and therefore kill himself. THis would make > the copy quite distinctly different from the original.< > > If a group of friends whom you trust completely sat you down today > and convinced you that actually you were a copy of Mike Lorrey, not > the original, would you kill yourself? I'm not the one whose opinion we are talking about. Besides that, you are making the assumption that I could be convinced of it. If I felt that copies were illegitimate and I was a copy, then I might just do that. It happens already in the world, when people, in cultures with strong prohibitions against bastardy, find out they are bastards, for example, or when an intimate couple finds out they are actually siblings and they believe that incest is a mortal sin, etc. Murderers who are born again in prison doing life terms are well known to state that they believe they should be executed for their sins. If I were a luddite who found out I was actually a clone, then, yes, I might just kill myself. Hypothetically speaking. Of course, if I were not actually a clone, just that someone had convinced me of it, then they would be guilty of felony murder. Of course, the hypothetical situation merely proves that a copy can be different from the original, contrary to John Clark's presumption. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Sat Sep 18 19:18:59 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:18:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Story of a Brain Message-ID: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> I sent a version of this posting five years ago, but I thought people might enjoy seeing it again. Unfortunately I have not been able to find an online copy of the essay that I paraphrase. One of the articles in the collection The Mind's I, edited by Hofstadter and Dennett, has always struck me as posing difficult problems relating to instantiation and playback questions. It is The Story of a Brain, by Arnold Zuboff. I will summarize a portion here. This is a simplification of Zuboff's arguments but I think catches the main idea. A man greatly admired by his society has died. However in order to show their gratitude and love, his people have taken it upon themselves to preserve his brain and induce pleasant experiences in it. They believe that by stimulating his neurons in appropriate patterns they are able to create the corresponding conscious experiences. At first this is just done by stimulating the sensory inputs to the brain. Then at some point there is an accident, and the brain is damaged. It is split into its two hemispheres and the bridge between them is destroyed. The brain is repaired by installing artificial connections between the two hemispheres to replace the damaged nerve fibers. With these connections in place the brain is able to be stimulated as before. Later, society realizes that the wires connecting the brain hemispheres don't need to be solid and can be replaced by radio transmitters and receivers. The signals still get from one side to the other, but now the two hemispheres can be separated, which is more convenient. Many people want to be involved in the project and now two labs can participate rather than just one. However, separating the brains by too much causes problems due to time lag for the radio signals. At this point a new method is used. Instead of actually communicating with the other hemisphere, the nerve fibers for each side terminate in an "impulse cartridge". This is a device which produces the same signals that would have been produced by the opposite hemisphere, but it computes them inside itself. In this way each hemisphere gets exactly the necessary signals even though it is no longer communicating with the other side. This change is successful, and now that the process has been shown to work with the brain in two pieces, it gets divided further. Many people want to participate. So each hemisphere gets subdivided and fitted with an impulse cartridge which supplies the signals that would have been produced by the rest of the brain. In this way many labs can participate. Fast forward a few centuries, and the project has become a world-wide obsession. Everyone is involved. Each person has one neuron that he is responsible for. The neurons sit in small nutrient baths, and when it is time for a new experience to be delivered, each person receives instructions for the timing of how they are to stimulate their neuron. At the appropriate moment, each person delivers the specified patterns of stimulation all over the world, and the neurons go through the same patterns of activity which they would have if they were actually in the man's brain when he was experiencing some pleasurable activity. It is still thought that by doing this they actually bring about the corresponding mental state. Now it happens one day that just when a new experience-delivery is about to begin, one person finds that his neuron has died. He knows that this won't affect the overall experience, since neurons die all the time and we can't tell if there are a few more or less. But he is personally disappointed because he knows that he will not be able to play his own small part in delivering the happy experience. Then he gets an idea. His own brain is full of neurons as well, firing all the time. At the appropriate time, he moves the neural bath out of the way and bends over and puts his own brain into the position where "his" neuron is normally kept. Since his own brain is active, he is sure to have a neuron fire which is in the right place and at the right time for each of the stimulations he is supposed to give. In this way he can participate in delivering the experience using the neurons in his head rather than the one in the bath. But then he thinks, why bend over? It doesn't matter where the neurons are located, all that matters is the pattern of their stimulation. And then he thinks, what about all the other people who are stimulating their own neurons? They have brains too, full of neurons just like his. Any time they were supposed to be stimulating their neuron in its bath, they had neurons in their head which were firing at exactly that moment. If all that is necessary to produce a conscious experience is to have neurons fire at the specified times and places, there is no need for anyone to stimulate anything. Just by standing there, their own brains provide more than enough neural firings to produce any neural pattern (and therefore any mental experience) imaginable. It would seem to follow, then, that the entire enterprise has been a folly. Either all possible mental states are existing all the time just due to random neural firings in disconnected brains all over the world, or else these carefully planned stimulations, which were designed to mimic actual neural patterns in a conscious brain, were not actually producing any mental states. So, what do you think? Were they producing mental states by stimulating those neurons? And if so, are they still produced when they just stand their and let their brains do the work of firing neurons? Hal From pharos at gmail.com Sat Sep 18 19:24:36 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:24:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <414C82FD.3030002@plaything.co.uk> References: <200409181800.i8II0L013770@tick.javien.com> <414C82FD.3030002@plaything.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:48:29 +0100, Sim Bamford wrote: > > If a group of friends whom you trust completely sat you down today and convinced you that actually you were a copy of Mike Lorrey, not the original, would you kill yourself? > That's what the problem is! This isn't the real Mike Lorrey. I just knew that the real Mike Lorrey was into crystals and aroma-therapy. ;) BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 18 19:39:52 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:39:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Story of a Brain In-Reply-To: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040918193952.99110.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > So, what do you think? Were they producing mental states by > stimulating > those neurons? And if so, are they still produced when they just > stand > their and let their brains do the work of firing neurons? The fatal flaw here is the assumption that the neuron fires randomly. Each neuron fires due to chemical potentials built up from inputs from other neurons. Input AND output. Whoever is stimulating the input pathways for eyes ears, mouth, nose and skin is the really important player. If what they do is random, then all the brain is seeing is static noise. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From velvethum at hotmail.com Sat Sep 18 20:15:31 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:15:31 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Story of a Brain References: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: Hal wrote: > So each hemisphere gets subdivided and fitted > with an impulse cartridge which supplies the signals that would have > been produced by the rest of the brain. In this way many labs can > participate. And, at the end, we would end up with as many fully formed cartridge brains as neurons in the original brain. When the original cartridge is connected to the left hemisphere, that cartridge *is* the right side of the brain because it must be as complex as he right side of the brain to produce exactly the same output. That makes 2 brains. Divide them again and you'll end up with the total of 4 brains, and so on. Slawomir From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 18 20:23:23 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:23:23 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A view on cryonics, worlds, identities References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net><414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> <08fc01c49d6e$2d078f10$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <002b01c49dbd$70a9c310$5ebf1b97@administxl09yj> Brett Paatsch: > I don't regard many-worlds theory as > something that needs to be accomodated > or is worth accomodating. This is perhaps something worthy of further, obstinate investigation :-) Imagine a quantum superposition state like this one: 1/sqrt2 |spin_z +1>|m +1> + 1/sqrt2 |spin_z -1>|m -1> The state above is trivial enough, it describes a superposition of spin-up/spin-down states, and the "entagled" (or, following here H. Everett III, the "relative") recording states |m +1>, |m -1>, of a recording device M. Imagine we have now another measurement device K, to measure some observable (let us call it OBS) of the above quantum superposition state. Let us choose (heh!) OBS such that the ray (or the subspace), generated by the quantum superposition state (above), is an eigenspace of OBS, corresponding to a certain definite eigenvalue, let us say the eigenvalue ONE. Because of this specific (indeed!) choice of OBS, *neither* component of the (above) quantum superposition state lies in the eigenspace of OBS. Hence OBS fails to commute with the spin_z observable, and of course fails to commute with the entangled M recording device observable. We can write down the following quantum superposition state, before the 2nd measurement is performed by means of K: 1/sqrt2 |spin_z +1>|m +1>|OBS uncertain> + 1/sqrt2 |spin_z -1>|m -1>|OBS uncertain> We can write down the following quantum superposition state, after the 2nd measurement is performed by means of K: 1/sqrt2 |z-spin +1>|m +1>|OBS ONE> + 1/sqrt2 |z-spin -1>|m -1>|OBS ONE> In MWI the superposition state has, usually, no actual meaning, since, in MWI, each term of the superposition is in one-to-one correspondence with a distinct "world" (not well defined). Notice that in MWI the quantum superposition state just means that a component is reificated in a "world", while another component is reificated in another "world". Also notice that in each of the distinct (or decohering?) "worlds" the measurement devices - say M, or K - can incorporate the state of an observer (human) who perceives the outcome of the measurement. In general terms, in MWI, a "world" instantiates an eigenvalue for an observable iff the superposition term associated with that "world" is an eigenstate of the observable corresponding to that eigenvalue. (The above is the MWI implementation of the usual eigenstate-eigenvalue link of the orthodox interpretation). Well, from the equivalence between MWI and orthodox interpretation we should get that the following "worlds" "world" one -> 1/sqrt2 |spin_z +1>|m +1>|OBS uncertain> "world" two -> 1/sqrt2 |spin_z -1>|m -1>|OBS uncertain> become, after the measurement performed by means of K, "world" one -> 1/sqrt2 |spin_z +1>|m +1>|OBS ONE> "world" two -> 1/sqrt2 |spin_z -1>|m -1>|OBS ONE> In other words the fact that K would later record the state |OBS ONE> is fixed in advance, and no other "world" is allowed here excepting the following two "world" one -> 1/sqrt2 |spin_z +1>|m +1>|OBS ONE> "world" two -> 1/sqrt2 |spin_z -1>|m -1>|OBS ONE> But it is worth noticing that in the first "world", say 1/sqrt2 |spin_z +1>|m +1>|OBS uncertain> , the observable OBS, since it does not commute with the spin_z observable, has no determinate value, and thus the outcome of the measurement of the observable OBS must occur *by chance*! It is worth noticing that also in the second "world", say 1/sqrt2 |spin_z -1>|m -1>|OBS uncertain>, the observable OBS, since it does not commute with the spin_z observable, has no determinate value, and thus the outcome of the measurement of the observable OBS must occur *by chance*! So, here we have reached - at least apparently! - a contradiction. Possible solution is, i.e., that the "state" does not describe anything physical, but only all available informations about the quantum system. Or we can make appeal to magic properties of the SUUW Schroedinger Unitary-evolving Universal Wave-function. Or to some other possible super-rule. Anyway, it seems important here that observers, and their individualities, could be attached to M (measuring the spin_z) or to K (measuring the observable OBS). So the situation seems to be rather messy and weird, as usual. From sentience at pobox.com Sat Sep 18 22:36:21 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:36:21 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> Message-ID: <414CB865.1090303@pobox.com> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: >> >>This definition is trivial to deflate. Just suppose that we interlace two >>sets of neurons and synapses, neither interconnected with the other, but >>both occupying the same volume of space. Better yet, suppose that we run >>two minds on the same neurons, the neurons having time-sharing registers >>that swap between the two identities twenty times per second. How does >>your spatial algorithm distinguish between these two minds? > > The algorithm distinguishes between two minds by tracking their unique > trajectories not only in space, but also in time. Your argument *seems* to > rest on the assumption that just because the space-time parameters of two > minds register values that are very close, the trajectories will be > indistinguishable. Even though the values are going to be very close, they > will never be the same. > > Let's use your example where minds A and B share the same computational > medium whose proverbial "CPU" swaps two identities every 1/20s. > > The position of an electron that flows as part of mind A is recorded every > femtosecond. At time t1, the electron is at x, y, z, 1, and we record that > position in the log. Then, at time t2, we make a new entry, x+1,y+1,z+1, 2. > The entries pile up until CPU switches to mind B after 1/20s. > > Now, suppose that an electron flowing as part of B makes the journey from x, > y, z, to x+1, y+1, z+1, just like the previous electron. However, this > particular electron's time parameter is not going to be 1 or 2 anymore. A's > record will then necessarily differ from B's reflecting different > trajectories of these two minds in space-time. > > Now, think of the overall process and all the positions mapped by all points > of matter whose flow in space-time leads to the emergence of a mind. Unless > you find a way to make A and B's matter flow exactly within the same > location AND time, I will always be able to verify their identities by > investigating A and B's recorded trajectories in space-time. Aha! But if you're tracking spacetime coordinates on such an extremely fine grain, what you're actually doing is tracking every element of the entire computation. No longer can you point to two different people on two sides of a room, and know complacently that they shall always be distinct for they are separate lumps of matter. In particular, to establish continuity, you will need to track chains of causality through that complex skein of computation - not just the fact that an electron was here and then moved there, but the fact that it bumped into another electron which bumped into another electron and so on. Now what if an electron in this skein of computation bumps into *two* electrons? In this fashion may a person be duplicated so that there is no copy, there are two originals. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Sep 18 23:26:37 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 18:26:37 -0500 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <414CB865.1090303@pobox.com> References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> <414CB865.1090303@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040918182210.01a3eec8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 06:36 PM 9/18/2004 -0400, Eliezer wrote: >Now what if an electron in this skein of computation bumps into *two* >electrons? Good dog, what is this, some 1920s' Child's Guide To The Amazing Atom? Damien Broderick From velvethum at hotmail.com Sun Sep 19 00:46:22 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 20:46:22 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> <414CB865.1090303@pobox.com> Message-ID: > > Now, think of the overall process and all the positions mapped by all points > > of matter whose flow in space-time leads to the emergence of a mind. Unless > > you find a way to make A and B's matter flow exactly within the same > > location AND time, I will always be able to verify their identities by > > investigating A and B's recorded trajectories in space-time. > > Aha! But if you're tracking spacetime coordinates on such an extremely > fine grain, what you're actually doing is tracking every element of the > entire computation. No longer can you point to two different people on two > sides of a room, and know complacently that they shall always be distinct > for they are separate lumps of matter. Why not? I'm not sure how the last sentence follows from the previous one. Reading the entries in the log for the positions of all matter flowing as part of the mind process in space-time is exactly how I'll know the location of the original. > In particular, to establish > continuity, you will need to track chains of causality through that complex > skein of computation - not just the fact that an electron was here and then > moved there, but the fact that it bumped into another electron which bumped > into another electron and so on. My definition of identity is quite precise, I think, because it defines it as a uniqueness of a mind process in space-time which means that it focuses exclusively on the set of processes that are mind processes (as opposed to, say, computer memory retrieval processes). It already assumes to have all the knowledge needed to differentiate between mind and non-mind processes. I imagine this knowledge to include all the causal links of the flow of matter that leads to the emergence of a mind. Slawomir From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 19 01:29:59 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:29:59 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net><414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net><414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net><08d201c49d5c$2d62ac90$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <0a0501c49de8$2dfe4ab0$ec202dcb@homepc> Slawomir Paliwoda : > > I think you and I are in agreement Slawomir. I think youR > > system is cogent and has better explanatory power and > > utility in that it suggests ways by which progress may be > > made. > > > > I suspect that this recommendation will be unnecessary, that > > you will probably do it anyway, but I think you should write > > down in one place your own view of cryonics defining your > > key terms "identity" "mind" "person" etc > > > I'd also suggest you keep the questions that you have been > > asked in a sort of FAQ. > > It's a good idea and I've thought about doing something like that > for few years now. The reason why I haven't done that yet is > people's apathy when it comes to thinking about PI, perhaps > developed over the years of frustrating and noisy discussions > about identity. It could be that people who agree with you are not communicating agreement. It could be a consequence of the internet medium. I am used to not being agreed with. And in meat space if I find someone I agree with on something nontrivial I am usually pleased enough to have found someone like that that the temptation to go exploring further using the platform of shared agreement is so strong that usually I'll find some development of the original agreed idea such that the person I agreed with and I no longer agree. We, myself and that other-type, may not disagree but we are both likely to be independent thinkers that like to chew before we swallow and are likely to be wary of premature agreement. But whether voiced as agreement or not when a good idea is communicated the peanut has still been pushed forward (unless the only folk that know about it die before passing it on). We me and other-type thinkers both have better worldviews as a result of intellectual discussion. And as a social being I feel better for having encountered another intelligent life in the local part of the universe. Intellectual agreement feels good, but it doesn't happen much between people who are predisposed to exploring spaces not yet already explored. > It seems like whenever the issue is raised, > people are convinced the topic is too difficult and messy and > that no solutions exist. The bell curve of understanding does not superimpose over the bell curve of noise. > And, to my amazement, this applies to > transhumanists too. How do you talk to a person who claims > "identity is an illusion"? In my opinion one should do what you have been doing. Have confidence that your view is right until it is refutted but recognize that that is probably also how rabbits look at the world. And there are a lot more rabbits. When you post to a list or write a paper you are not only talking to the people who disagree with you and say so. Others are listening. People do pursue truth. Not everyone gets it but most of us pursue it because our worldviews serve us better when they contain less error. Beyond having confidence though, put the meme down, so its not lost. Darwin might have died with the Origin of the Species unpublished if others like Wallace didn't come along and cause him to want to go public to get credit for work done. People who are good with ideas are not always good politicians and implementers of ideas. I doubt Darwin would have been the man to take on Wilberforce. But because he'd written his ideas down they were transmitted to Huxley. And Huxley could take on Wilberforce. And the fight made good theatre and the meme got propagated further. > I may think that, if given few hours with > any rational person, I would have an excellent chance of explaining > the concepts, but if I know I can't make that person even agree > to really listen in the first place, my chances of explaining anything > to anyone will be very small. When I figure out how to make people > pay attention, that's when I'll commit to writing it *all* down. Right > now I don't think my ideas about PI would have enough audience > to justify my future effort to write them all down. I'm not going to > commit to writing something that would need to be the size of a > small book if I know people won't read it, though maybe an > evolving FAQ model will work. Thanks for the suggestion. Your welcome but be careful I might be a sort of Wallace and guzzump your idea if you don't get it down ;-). And then the Huxleys will be my bulldogs not yours ;-). Or to be more practical, if you can deal a good memetic blow to the lingistic nonsense about what the hell is identity and mind and person and where does it fit in a discussion about cryonics then I will not have to do that work but can work on other stuff perhaps like getting people focussed on implementation and working towards building stuff that can actually be built and I could be helped in that by pointing people who otherwise might have gotten bogged down in the quagmire of words by pointing them at your work. Or maybe I'm lazy and do nothing. But someone else does. My point is that you doing your bit well helps. It doesn't just help (get you kudos) it helps others who also get frustrated at how often these discussions get stuck in words and so people don't move on to implementation strategies in the same sort of numbers. > > Now about your above comment. I want to get clarification. > > > > The time parameter is clear necessary and I agree. Your x, y, z > > 3D spatial parameters are point spaces I presume? > > > Yes. > > > > Even though > > the mind is not a point. It may have some conceptual spacial > > midpoint. The centre point of an inflated balloon actually has no > > balloon there. But the balloon boundaries like a brain's boundary > > delimit the balloon. > > > Mind is indeed not a point. What I mean by a mind process is the sum of all > the little processes inside the brain that contribute to emergence of mind. > My conceptual model of an overall mind process is a cloud of bubbling > electrons in space delimited by the space occupied by the brain. > (Incidentally, you may notice that this model focuses on the activity that > will always be substrate-independent). As a conceptual model yes. But I suspect you will trip some folk up with the word conceptual. Its not wrong. We are just on slippery terrain here. > Therefore, mind is not a point, but, conceptually, a symphony of points > that these electrons map in space and time. By tracking the trajectories > of all the matter points in space-time that contribute to the emergence of > mind, I'm able to track the trajectory of the overall mind process, i.e., > the location of mind itself. I'd encourage care when arguing by analogy - using words like "symphony". Sometimes the worst thing one can do when trying to propagate a new meme is to try and propagate it in language that is too simple. If you try and popularise too much (if you look for too much popular agreement and understanding) you poison the meme before it gets established. Why is that bad? Because pedants like me will sometimes attack an over simplified analogy to try and get a deeper grasp and sometimes others reading pick up on the success of the attack and mistake a mere flesh wound for a fatal wound. Then they revert back to knocking over straw men again as though there is unity in disagreement. So often in discussion about cryonics someone will throw out the assertion that anybody that doesn't subscribe to the information theoretic dogma must subscribe to a belief in souls. Its nonsense but it keeps coming back. I find it useful to remember that a tendency to religiousity probably resides in all of us. We have to guard against it actively. We have to try to be objective to get the benefits of being objective but should bear in mind that religions and illusions and believing are all natural phenonomon too. They can be understood as doing something that confers and advantage dispite being wrong. > > That is, it is not each atoms that it is relevant to track they can come > > and go (and indeed each atom could have an identity and trajectory > > of its own in and out of the personal identity but that's the identity of > > an atom not the identity of the "person"). Dito synapses. > > > Exactly. This is where the benefits of grounding identity in a mind, and > defining that mind as a process, come in. I track the trajectories of only > what's relevant to the process because it is that activity of matter that > causes a mind, not the inactive matter itself. I dunno. Actually I do know. You can't track the trajectories at this stage in fact, you can only track them conceptually. That doesn't ruin the explanatory utility of you theory. > > > > You cannot say exactly how large the mind is spatially (volumetrically) > > can you? > > > The issue of size is orthogonal to what matters the most for defining > identity, namely, where and when that mind is in the Universe. Yes. Agreed. > > >The mind process will always by spatial definition run in some > > positive volume of space. > > > ..and time. Yes. > > > > There may be some parts of what we understand to be the brain > > which are actually superfluous spatially to the region in which > > the mind process works. As we discover what these are we may > > scientifically reduce the space of the mind-process but never below > > zero. > > > > Agreed? Or is some of the above a misunderstanding of your > > position. > > > I agree completely. Since I only care about identity of the mind, as > opposed to the identity of a kidney or leg, I only care about the > identity of things that generate that mind. Me too for purposes of this discussion and for purposes of considering what I'd want to preserve in the contexts of any cryonics process I'd be interested in either signing up for or working towards the real world implementation of. > What causes a mind to > emerge is an overall mind process (=the sum of all the little processes > defined by the flow of matter in space-time inside the brain or future > computational mediums suited to perform mind processes), so I only > need to focus on those *particular* flows of matter that contribute > to that mind process. Your theory of mind has to be compatible (i.e. not incompatible) with what we know about developmental biology. Biological beings grow brains. > For example, if an electron at, say, X, Y, Z, > and 477th femtosecond position moves to X, Y, Z, and 478th > femtosecond, and that flow turns out to be contributing to a > non-mind process, then neither that particular flow, nor the electron > in it, need to be considered during identity verification (because > maybe that particular flow occurred inside the heart muscle). Agreed. And that is why your model is useful. We can explore what within the brain can be done away with without loosing the critical mind process. We can try and hone in on what exactly is the mind process as a scientific endeavour. Regards, Brett From sentience at pobox.com Sun Sep 19 02:22:35 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:22:35 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> <414CB865.1090303@pobox.com> Message-ID: <414CED6B.4060107@pobox.com> Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > > My definition of identity is quite precise, I think, because it defines it > as a uniqueness of a mind process in space-time which means that it focuses > exclusively on the set of processes that are mind processes (as opposed to, > say, computer memory retrieval processes). It already assumes to have all > the knowledge needed to differentiate between mind and non-mind processes. I > imagine this knowledge to include all the causal links of the flow of matter > that leads to the emergence of a mind. It's a big assumption, y'know. I who must actually describe this sort of "precise" definition to an AI, have not been given nearly enough information to do so. But leave that aside. You still have not answered my question about branching causal links that create branching mind-processes, and that was the point. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From alito at organicrobot.com Sun Sep 19 02:48:36 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:48:36 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Story of a Brain In-Reply-To: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> References: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <1095562116.14620.25.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Sat, 2004-09-18 at 12:18 -0700, "Hal Finney" wrote: > I sent a version of this posting five years ago, but I thought people > might enjoy seeing it again. Unfortunately I have not been able to find > an online copy of the essay that I paraphrase. > > One of the articles in the collection The Mind's I, edited by Hofstadter > and Dennett, has always struck me as posing difficult problems relating > to instantiation and playback questions. It is The Story of a Brain, by > Arnold Zuboff. I will summarize a portion here. This is a simplification > of Zuboff's arguments but I think catches the main idea. > Most excellent Hal. I was telling my brother yesterday night how the identity thread is back on the extropian list, and how it did change my mind once, back in '99 with a story that someone posted. Thanks again. alejandro From namacdon at ole.augie.edu Sun Sep 19 03:46:13 2004 From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:46:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BUSH science vs KERRY science Message-ID: <1095565573.8aae3d80namacdon@ole.augie.edu> >Actually, more non-American citizens would rather >Kerry get elected, even if he would be good for the >American economy. They're more worried about their >own hides than about putting America down. "Putting America down" isn't a good strategy for any state or entity that backs their economy on the strength of ours (such as Japan, the EU, and Saudi Arabia). If we collapse, so do they. Of course, they also control enough of our debt that the Central Bank of Europe or the Japanese Diet could, on a whim, destabilize the entire world economy and plunge us into a new great depression, though I somehow doubt that will happen any time soon... -Nicholas MacDonald From velvethum at hotmail.com Sun Sep 19 04:05:50 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:05:50 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001><414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net><414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net><414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net><08d201c49d5c$2d62ac90$ec202dcb@homepc> <0a0501c49de8$2dfe4ab0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: Brett, You're making some interesting points about the benefits of communicating ideas publically which make me reevaluate my "strategy". Thanks. > > Therefore, mind is not a point, but, conceptually, a symphony of points > > that these electrons map in space and time. By tracking the trajectories > > of all the matter points in space-time that contribute to the emergence of > > mind, I'm able to track the trajectory of the overall mind process, i.e., > > the location of mind itself. > > I'd encourage care when arguing by analogy - using words like "symphony". My experience is that it is difficult to explain mind process. I'm not sure how to give a sense of what it is without using analogies. Dry theory never works for me unless the author illustrates the points he's making with examples, and I assume this is true for other people too. > So often in discussion about cryonics someone will throw out the assertion > that anybody that doesn't subscribe to the information theoretic dogma > must subscribe to a belief in souls. Its nonsense but it keeps coming back. It does. > > Exactly. This is where the benefits of grounding identity in a mind, and > > defining that mind as a process, come in. I track the trajectories of only > > what's relevant to the process because it is that activity of matter that > > causes a mind, not the inactive matter itself. > > I dunno. Actually I do know. You can't track the trajectories at this stage > in fact, you can only track them conceptually. That doesn't ruin the > explanatory utility of you theory. Are you referring to inability of present-day technology to track these trajectories? > > What causes a mind to > > emerge is an overall mind process (=the sum of all the little processes > > defined by the flow of matter in space-time inside the brain or future > > computational mediums suited to perform mind processes), so I only > > need to focus on those *particular* flows of matter that contribute > > to that mind process. > > Your theory of mind has to be compatible (i.e. not incompatible) with > what we know about developmental biology. Biological beings > grow brains. It is compatible because it completely disregards mind's computational medium. Whether or not mind emerges in organic or synthetic matter is irrelevant to what causes a process to become a mind. Slawomir From jonkc at att.net Sun Sep 19 04:06:56 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:06:56 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org><001a01c49d5d$28ad9380$abb01b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <005101c49dfe$23c58de0$94fe4d0c@hal2001> "Slawomir Paliwoda" >What you call "environment" [?] I define as a unique location of a mind process in space-time. What you?re talking about here is just the location of the sense transducers (where the eyes and ears are), there is nothing unique about it, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the position of the brain, provided it is not so far away that the delay caused by the speed of light becomes important. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From jonkc at att.net Sun Sep 19 04:22:27 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:22:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] identity and copies, yet again References: <20040918155714.73601.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006401c49e00$4b294140$94fe4d0c@hal2001> "Mike Lorrey" > if you destroy the original, the original most > certainly would feel quite differently If you made the copy immediately before the destruction there would be no discontinuity in your thoughts and you wouldn't miss a beat. > the original would say he doesn't want to die, if he has > Damiens opinion, while the copy might say: I am the copy, therefore I > do not deserve to live... and therefore kill himself. THis would make > the copy quite distinctly different from the original. Well certainly. The two start off being identical but then you whisper into the ear of the guy on the left "you're the original" and whisper to guy on the right "you're the copy" then the two are no longer exactly identical. In my case it would make very little difference but your copy or Damien's might suffer severe emotional distress. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From scerir at libero.it Sun Sep 19 04:34:50 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 06:34:50 +0200 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com><414CB865.1090303@pobox.com> Message-ID: <00bc01c49e02$20c98f20$a6b61b97@administxl09yj> Now, think of the overall process and all the positions mapped by all points of matter whose flow in space-time leads to the emergence of a mind. Unless you find a way to make A and B's matter flow exactly within the same location AND time, I will always be able to verify their identities by investigating A and B's recorded trajectories in space-time. Slawomir --- Just a feeling (just a feeling) that it does not work properly. You cannot follow the causal link in space-time, because of "complementarity". That A's and B's electrons (or quantons) flow exactly within the same location and time or, to say it better, are such that you cannot realize "which is which", is possible. (I'm assuming here that "flow" has a quantal nature). 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action, we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained in the description of atomic phenomena. In particular, any attempt at an ordering in space-time leads to a break in the causal chain, since such an attempt is bound up with an essential exchange of momentum and energy between the individuals and the measuring rods and clocks used for observation; and just this exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, any conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the strict conservation of energy and momentum, with regard to the dynamical behaviour of the individual units obviously necessitates a complete renunciation of following their course in space and time'. - Niels Bohr, Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature, pp. 97-8, Cambridge University Press,1934. Even un-orthodox theories like Bohmian mechanics, which are deterministic, have problems in following the causal link. These theories, because they are deterministic, have to be non-local, and must allow FTL effects. From bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 19 04:28:49 2004 From: bryan.moss at dsl.pipex.com (Bryan Moss) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 05:28:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Story of a Brain In-Reply-To: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> References: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <414D0B01.4080700@dsl.pipex.com> Hal Finney wrote: >So, what do you think? Were they producing mental states by stimulating those neurons? And if so, are they still produced when they just stand their and let their brains do the work of firing neurons? > > The central notion implicit in the argument, that mental states supervene on brain states with complete disregard for the physical properties of those brain states, is an absurd straw man. Unless the "impulse cartridges" recreated the necessary physical mechanisms to replicate the mental states, the mental states would have been destroyed (or impaired) because the brain states upon which they supervene were destroyed (or impaired). The final part of the argument, that we can move from a single neuron being stimulated to any single neuron, is therefore nonsensical: either they're replicating the mental states, in which case there are lots of individuals, or the mental states have been detroyed, in which case there are no individuals. BM From velvethum at hotmail.com Sun Sep 19 04:47:34 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 00:47:34 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org><001a01c49d5d$28ad9380$abb01b97@administxl09yj> <005101c49dfe$23c58de0$94fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: > "Slawomir Paliwoda" > > >What you call "environment" [?] I define as a unique location of a mind > process in space-time. > > What you?re talking about here is just the location of the sense transducers > (where the eyes and ears are), I'm talking about the trajectories of everything that contributes to emergence of mind. > there is nothing unique about it, ..except its unique trajectory in space-time. Slawomir From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 19 04:58:07 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:58:07 +1000 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <08d201c49d5c$2d62ac90$ec202dcb@homepc> <0a0501c49de8$2dfe4ab0$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <000f01c49e05$41325820$ec202dcb@homepc> Slawomir Paliwoda : > Brett, > > You're making some interesting points about the benefits of communicating > ideas publically which make me reevaluate my "strategy". Thanks. Good. Your welcome. > > > > Therefore, mind is not a point, but, conceptually, a symphony of > > > points that these electrons map in space and time. By tracking the > > > trajectories of all the matter points in space-time that contribute to > > > the emergence of mind, I'm able to track the trajectory of the > > > overall mind process, i.e., the location of mind itself. > > > > I'd encourage care when arguing by analogy - using words like > > "symphony". > > > My experience is that it is difficult to explain mind process. I'm not > sure how to give a sense of what it is without using analogies. I understand. I am not saying stop doing it. Just be aware that you are doing it in a communication medium which is not one person one listener/reader. Your posts will sometimes be read by individual list readers not as part of an entire thread but just as single posts. Some of the objections you will be asked to deal with will arise not because they haven't necessarily been dealt with (or because the person asking the question is a dill) its just the nature of an e-list. People jump in and out of threads. And have different levels of engagement with and understanding of a topic. To communicate something new its necessary to use languages and imagery that the person your talking to will understand. We know that intuitively most of the time. If we try to explain science to a child we don't usually start with the deepest explanation but with some simplification that may in fact be an oversimplification. Many people learn science from listening in to the child like explanations pitched to a popular audience and then think that they are hearing and discounting the full strength theory. Nothing surprising there but this is going to happen more often on a list where people pop in and out. > Dry theory > never works for me unless the author illustrates the points he's making > with examples, and I assume this is true for other people too. Me either. With something new people will usually want to know why they should care and what is in it for them. They won't necessary say that though. > > So often in discussion about cryonics someone will throw out the > > assertion that anybody that doesn't subscribe to the information > > theoretic dogma must subscribe to a belief in souls. Its nonsense > > but it keeps coming back. > > It does. It won't stop anytime soon. To continue my analogy with Darwin and the propogation of the theory of evolution, I think, it might be worth bearing in mind that on transhumanist lists you are not going to be surrounded by creationists but you will meet a lot of Lamarkians. Heck I may be a Lamarkian in a week moment thats the trouble :-) > > > Exactly. This is where the benefits of grounding identity in a > > > mind, and defining that mind as a process, come in. I track the > > > trajectories of only what's relevant to the process because it is > > > that activity of matter that causes a mind, not the inactive matter > > > itself. > > > > I dunno. Actually I do know. You can't track the trajectories at this > > stage in fact, you can only track them conceptually. That doesn't > > ruin the explanatory utility of you theory. > > > Are you referring to inability of present-day technology to track > these trajectories? Yes. With synchrotrons we can track things like electrons and work out stuff like proteins structures but we can't actually track something as complex as a mind process. I don't think that today we can really look closely at something like the mind process that your referring to in another. We are looking at rough maps only. But I could still be wrong - please don't get potentially suckered into agreeing with someone that seems to agree with you (they could be mistaken). But the truth is the truth. The tree that falls in the forest and is not heard will still make a sound. > > > What causes a mind to > > > emerge is an overall mind process (=the sum of all the little processes > > > defined by the flow of matter in space-time inside the brain or future > > > computational mediums suited to perform mind processes), so I only > > > need to focus on those *particular* flows of matter that contribute > > > to that mind process. > > > > Your theory of mind has to be compatible (i.e. not incompatible) with > > what we know about developmental biology. Biological beings > > grow brains. > > > It is compatible because it completely disregards mind's computational > medium. Whether or not mind emerges in organic or synthetic matter is > irrelevant to what causes a process to become a mind. There is a particularly hardy and erroneous meme that flourishes amongst the IT (information technology literate) that tends to assume or suspend disbelief about artificial intelligence. When you know a lot about programming and computers you tend to see the world as a lot more about programming and computers even when it isn't. The ancients knew very little about science but knew about people so they tended to anthropomorphise just about everything. AI may be possible (actually I'm pretty sure it IS possible but turns on the questions of what 'intelligence' is and how do we recognize it - Hal wrote relatively recently a very good post on AI imo) but AI isn't yet established fact. Some folks will talk as though it is and try and use an imaginary model to attack another model that is an attempt to relate to the real world. We are all probably carrying pet misconceptions about, me included, but we all have particular blind spots in relation to our own. Cheers, Brett From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Sep 19 05:17:04 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 22:17:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Hurricanes and global warming Message-ID: <414D1650.8457ADDC@mindspring.com> There is no doubt that we are in a period of elevated activity now (began in 1995) and that such periods have lasted decades. This cycle seems tied to some sort of coupled air-sea decadal oscillation. The only one we have sure knowledge about right now is the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) but we don't know enough about it to make any connection with hurricane activity cycles though it is true that the PDO was negative in the period of previous high activity and positive from the early 60's into the mid 90's and is negative now. In its positive phase, the PDO mimics the El Ni?o and also enhances Ni?os while suppressing Ni?as and the opposite is true during negative phases. Ni?os, of course inhibit hurricane formation in the ATL while enhancing EPAC activity. With regard to the Solar activity. What we think of as an 11 year sunspot cycle is really a 22 year magnetic cycle with two activity maxima. There are other cycles of activity at work including a 180 day one and one about 200 years in length (prior to 1957, 1780 had the highest annual sunspot count average. However, these other cycles are not multiples of the 22 year one so the various cycles get out of phase and interfere with each other and over long periods of time we end up with things like the Maunder and Sp?rer Minima in the 17th and 18th Centuries. It's these longer term cycles that are most important in the Solar-Climate Connection. Steve -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 19 07:07:58 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:07:58 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A view on cryonics, worlds, identities References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net><414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com><08fc01c49d6e$2d078f10$ec202dcb@homepc> <002b01c49dbd$70a9c310$5ebf1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <008201c49e17$64ab2270$ec202dcb@homepc> scerir wrote: > Brett Paatsch: > > > I don't regard many-worlds theory as > > something that needs to be accomodated > > or is worth accomodating. > > This is perhaps something worthy of further, obstinate > investigation :-) I respect your polite form of obstinacy and would like to accomodate it, if I could but I am pretty ignorant of quantum physics generally not just the many-worlds model that so rankles with me. Its not that I regard quantum physics as unworthy of investigation, its just that I don't see it as necessary for an understanding of biology and being mortal I have to choose where I'll spend my time. My interest in science is strongly biased towards the biological because I see that that area will have more practical ramifications for me in my lifetime. If you think that it is a failure to understand quantum physics that is causing me to draw different conclusions on cryonics than you, or different ones than I am doing now, then I would take that as a strong reason for me to try to deepen my understanding of quantum physics. Do you think that? Regards, Brett Paatsch From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 10:01:15 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:01:15 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Putin, Beslan spin, and the Chechya spiral Message-ID: Hello, I wonder if you have been following the events in Russia since the Beslan tradgedy. We know what happened. The terrorists targeted a school, many died. Involving children in a war breaks an unspoken rule, so the terrorists actions look to the world as more than barbaric. In this tragedy, it seems that the Russian govenment/military tried to do more things right this time than in the Moscow Theatre, but still they did many things wrong, including blocking international media from reporting the events accurately: http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3173186 As big as this tragedy was, the next actions by Putin look even bigger. He was quick to encapsulate this event into "Russia's September 11", he was quick to make an (unjustified, IMO) link from Chechen terrorists to Al Quaida, which was supposed to then justify his sweeping changes in the Russian government. He is successfully turning today's Russia into a dictatorship. http://www.economist.co.uk/agenda/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=3195142 "Under his new measures, the governors of Russia's 89 regions will be chosen by the president (and then confirmed by local assemblies), instead of being directly elected. Mr Putin also plans to abolish the first-past-the-post contests that currently fill half the seats in the parliament (Duma). In future, the entire Duma will be made up from party lists, which will squeeze out independent legislators." He has also said that he is justified to pre-emptively strike terrorists anywhere in the world. http://www.washtimes.com/world/20040915-120941-6017r.htm Is anyone here not bothered by this? We have now two very large governments claiming that they can preemptively strike anywhere in the world. Goverment USA's reason is "Weapons of Mass Destruction". Government Russia's reason is "Terrorist". Putin claims that he is justfied because the actions in Beslan was involving international terrorists. I would like to point out that the man claiming responsibility for the events in Beslan says that no link exists: http://www.iht.com/articles/539483.html "His claim seemed intended to counter allegations by the Kremlin and Russian security services that he has been doing the bidding of Al Qaeda." Are there not reasons enough to think that the Russian government/military actions in Chechnya during the last decades were more than enough reasons to breed homegrown terrorists? Let's assume that the tactics used in Chechnya during the last couple of decades resemble some of the tactics used by the Russian government and military in their invasion/occupation in Afghanistan 1979-1990. They invaded and occupied an independent country under the pretext to 'stabilize' the local government, and then proceeded to slaughter. Some ten million Afghans by 1986 no longer existed (one million murdered, many more millions as refugees). Even though the Afghans are smart, fierce and they succeeded remarkably to drive away what was supposed to be the best-equipped army in the world, the result was a generation of Afghans mostly gone. That would be reason enough to the Afghans to despise the Russian government. But there's more reasons. The Soviet military operated under no rules of war. Included in their tactics were tortures, taking family members as hostages to manipulate officials, hangings were normal, with no age limits as children were fair play to the Soviet military. Assault helicoptors routinely targeted small villages, farmers, ordinary people, bombing, wiping them out, then the copters returned dropping "explosive candies": brightly colored packages wrapping explosives, imitation playthings, watches, womens' combs. When people returned later to try to rebuild their homes, the "candies" blew off a hand or foot, or blinded, or maimed. Children were irresistively drawn to the explosive candies no matter what the adults told them, so the maimed children outnumberd the adult victims by ten-to-one. Therefore, don't assume that the Russian government are the poor innocents in this story. The real innocents are the civilians caught in the middle, used as fodder. While there is no human excuse for what the terrorists did in Beslan, my guess about the motivations for the terrorists' actions in Beslan is an eye-for-an-eye response to increasingly brutal Russian military actions. And the brutal spiral continues. Amara From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 11:22:01 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:22:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Information system to help scientists analyze mechanisms of social behavior Message-ID: <20040919112201.18159.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> >From Medical News Today: With a $5 million, five-year grant from the National Science Foundation, the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign will create BeeSpace, a system to help scientists analyze all sources of information relevant to the mechanisms of social behavior. The complex society of the Western honey bee, Apis mellifera, will drive the information system. The system will be a software environment that "will help to shed light on an unprecedented scale on the relationship between genes and how lives are carried out in an animal society," said principal investigator Bruce Schatz, professor of library and information science. "We will take a fresh look at the fundamental problem of the mechanism of behavior, whether behavior is caused by nature or nurture," said Schatz, who also directs the Community Architectures for Network Information Systems (CANIS) Laboratory, a campus resource for new information systems. "Worries abound over the ethical implications of genetic determinism," he said. "The goal of BeeSpace is to help forge a deeper understanding of the relationship between genes and behavior that transcends nature-nurture. This project will use genomic biology to demonstrate that what matters for social behavior is that DNA is both genetically inherited and environmentally responsive." BeeSpace was one of six awards totaling $30 million announced today (Sept. 16) as part of the NSF's Frontiers of Integrative Biological Research (FIBR), a program now in its second year. BeeSpace will be housed in the Institute for Genomic Biology (IGB), now under construction on Gregory Drive in Urbana. The $75 million state-of-the-art facility, which will open in mid-2006, will be home to 400 campus researchers in three broad areas: systems biology, cellular and metabolic engineering, and genome technology. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=13623 From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 11:24:52 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:24:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch Message-ID: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> >From eMediaWire: For the first time in history, a robot has built its own synthetic central nervous system and then learned not only to walk, but how to autonomously enter and navigate the corridors of complex buildings. This dramatic experiment was recently conducted at Imagination Engines, Inc. (IEI) in St. Louis, Missouri. Neural networks spontaneously connect themselves in a matter of seconds into the neural circuitry required for extremely ambitious robotic brains. The resulting neural network architecture both resembles and functions like a brain, a collection of individual neural networks fused into a contemplative system that can form complete models of their worlds, consider alternative scenarios, and finally choose that alternative best suited to a given problem. http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/9/emw159636.htm From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sun Sep 19 12:03:51 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 22:03:51 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bob Woodwards book - Plan of Attack Message-ID: <016701c49e40$ba812d60$ec202dcb@homepc> I just finished reading Bob Woodwards book _Plan of Attack_ I'd heard that both the Bush and Kerry campaigns were supportive of it and thought that Bob Woodward of Watergate fame might do a reasonable job of inpartially reporting the facts. Michael Moore didn't really work for me. Some reviews here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074325547X//ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-8660731-7955105?v=glance&s=books&vi=reviews Anyone else read this? I found it fascinating the way Woodward was able to report what Bush had said (he'd interviewed Bush and a lot of the players personally) while leaving it to the reader to make their own judgement on whether Bush was decisive or a fool. Imo, pretty much either interpretation could be drawn depending on the readers predisposition to Bush. That's canny political writing. Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Sep 19 14:39:00 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 07:39:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040919073757.047ca4d0@mail.earthlink.net> Did anyone read the Betterhumans newsletter and the link to the article trashing "extropian" transhumanists? I wonder if Betterhumans will post Gina's reply. cheers! Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From velvethum at hotmail.com Sun Sep 19 14:23:20 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 10:23:20 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net> <414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com> <414CB865.1090303@pobox.com> <414CED6B.4060107@pobox.com> Message-ID: > > My definition of identity is quite precise, I think, because it defines it > > as a uniqueness of a mind process in space-time which means that it focuses > > exclusively on the set of processes that are mind processes (as opposed to, > > say, computer memory retrieval processes). It already assumes to have all > > the knowledge needed to differentiate between mind and non-mind processes. I > > imagine this knowledge to include all the causal links of the flow of matter > > that leads to the emergence of a mind. > It's a big assumption, y'know. I who must actually describe this sort of > "precise" definition to an AI, have not been given nearly enough > information to do so. That only means that you haven't yet been able to discover that knowledge, not that it doesn't exist. The point is that it is theoretically possible to objectively verify identity, not that it is impossible to verify it with present-day technology. Definition I gave was a definition of identity, not of a mind process. You might have to describe the definition of mind process to an AI, but explaining identity to it is unnecessary for it to function. Identity does not change depending on what AI knows. Slawomir From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 15:52:09 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:52:09 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Photographs of Recent Etna Activity Message-ID: Dear Extropes, Continuing from my previous post http://www.lucifer.com/pipermail/extropy-chat/2004-September/008741.html Photographs of recent Etna Activity: http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/etna0408-en.html http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/etna0409-en.html My favorites: (the city lights below are from Catania) http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0408/f840.jpg http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0408/f842.jpg http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0408/f843.jpg http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0409/f971.jpg http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0409/f961.jpg http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0409/f968.jpg Take a look at this one http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0408/f849.jpg Do you see how a dark stripe runs through the center of the flow as it splits around the rock in the center of the lava channel? The darker spots in the flow mean cooler temperatures, but why is the temperature in a convective flow so regular here to form a stripe? We watched this for a very long time before returning. Our idea to explain the stripe is that tension from the sides of the channel is pulling the lava so that it 'sticks' a little to the edges, bringing the hotter parts of the flow to the surface, while the center of the flow is not governed as strongly by the tension in its movement. And where was I? If you look on this photo: http://www.educeth.ch/stromboli/etna/etna04/icons0409/f954.jpg Up on the far hill, there is a blue dot next to the lava flow. That blue dot is me... It's warm and very comfortable next to a lava flow. The colors and textures are hypnotic and the sounds are so delicate; the best words I can find to describe the lava flow sound is the sound made when crumpling saran plastic wrap. Strange, hmm? The hornitos presented an entirely different sound; explosive "shjeew! shjeew!" sounds and lights like a firework display.. Oh what a symphony of sights and sounds these volcanoes give. Amara From rafal at smigrodzki.org Sun Sep 19 17:42:13 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:42:13 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Story of a Brain In-Reply-To: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> References: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <414DC4F5.4010009@smigrodzki.org> Hal Finney wrote: > >So, what do you think? Were they producing mental states by stimulating >those neurons? And if so, are they still produced when they just stand >their and let their brains do the work of firing neurons? > > > ### The work of producing the admired man's mental states is done by the impulse cartridges! As stated above, the cartridge provides the "same signals that would have been produced by the opposite hemisphere, but it computes them inside itself.". I would venture that computations which faithfully replicate the neural firing patterns of living brains must, unavoidably, produce qualia equivalent to the qualia experienced in the brain itself. Therefore, in the case above, there are many trillions of copies of the brain all over the world, in the form of impulse cartridges, and the extant admired neurons are but an infinitesimally small admixture to the pool of admired computation, at least as long as their outputs are fed back into the programming of the impulse cartridges (or modeled there to begin with). The firing of neurons in the brains of the admirers, however, doesn't produce admired mental states - after all, their neurons are not connected to the impulse cartridges, they are a part of networks which do the job of admiring, not being admired. All this assuming it is indeed possible in principle to build the "impulse cartridges" faithfully replicating what would have been if the Admired One was alive. Rafal From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Sep 19 18:11:06 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:11:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] First reactions to transhumanism In-Reply-To: <470a3c52040917074772ce1395@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52040917074772ce1395@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Unfortunately my French is too weak to read this. :( However... I've had an interesting time on another list. Someone posted that rant of Fukyama's (sp?) and then started to attack transhumanism as being elitist and racist and dangerous. I commented that I'd personally like to see some adjustments - for my kids/grandkids as IMO it's too late for me - regarding age related eye sight degeneration, tooth troubles, joint troubles, hearing loss. Nobody has argued against that. In fact now some of the older ones (40ish) have chatted up the possibilities of not just "exterior tech" but gene tech for fixing this kind of thing. Now. They want it for themselves, which generally means exterior tech. And they want it for their kids, which likely involves gene tech. :) IMO we've got to touch where people are. I mentioned CATscans and MRIs - how exclusive they were just a few years ago, but now everybody knows someone who's had one. Hip joint replacements, knee replacements, transplants. Are our friends less human or transhuman because of these? So much for the "racist" and "elitist" criticism. I just let it roll. In fact, they're moving on to new topics, as the subject of transhumanism has been opened and found to be, in truth, relatively non-threatening. :) Of course there's more, and of deeper complexity, but the fear factor dropped considerably. Nobody was against living a longer better life. I've offered them that link Amara sent about the stem cell cure. Regards, MB On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > The Canadian online magazine VOIR offers a debate between a > transhumanist and a neoluddite, for French speakers to enjoy. The most > interesting thing is reading the many comments left by readers, many > of whom apparently had not been exposed to transhumanism befor. It is > I believe a useful lesson that can be used for better marketing to see > the range of first reactions to transhumanism. > Besides preaching to the converted on our lists, we should also engage > in debates and defend transhumanism on other lists: again, not only > arguing politics on transhumanist fora, but also arguing transhumanism > on political fora. From scerir at libero.it Sun Sep 19 18:20:36 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:20:36 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A view on cryonics, worlds, identities References: <020a01c49c06$a964aa20$62fe4d0c@hal2001> <414A02EA.6070402@jefallbright.net> <414AF710.7020704@jefallbright.net> <414B0878.6020004@jefallbright.net><414C04EE.6080206@pobox.com><08fc01c49d6e$2d078f10$ec202dcb@homepc><002b01c49dbd$70a9c310$5ebf1b97@administxl09yj> <008201c49e17$64ab2270$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <007b01c49e75$5c8e7a20$11c41b97@administxl09yj> Brett Paatsch > Its not that I regard quantum physics as unworthy of > investigation, its just that I don't see it as necessary for > an understanding of biology and being mortal I have to > choose where I'll spend my time. Agreed completely. > If you think that it is a failure to understand quantum > physics that is causing me to draw different conclusions > on cryonics than you, or different ones than I am doing > now, then I would take that as a strong reason for me > to try to deepen my understanding of quantum physics. No, no. Don't do that. Almost nobody understands quantum physics. It is a science of 'principles' and 'operations' (at least in the matrix mechanical formulation). More or less like the special relativity theory. Something new happened 100 years ago, in many different fields. As you can see there are abstract objects also in .... http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-12/p49.html http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/11/8 http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/11/7 That said, there is a possible *conceptual* connection between QM and biology. Call it polymorphism, call it evolution, call it selection, call it adaptation, call it randomness, call it chance, dunno. But it appears that QM, beyond its general and strong principles like *unitarity* and linearity, allows hidden, sometimes remote, potentialities to become actual. What appears to be more frightening: a clocklike universe which is totally governed by deterministic laws, or a lawless universe which is totally unpredictable and random? (Asked once Karl Svozil). Well, QM is exactly between the total randomness (non-computability?) and the total predictability. QM also permits nonlocality - both nonlocal correlations and nonlocal equations of motion - while respecting relativistic *causality*. Is QM the unique theory that reconciles nonlocality and causality? Bell, Cirel'son, and others gave numerical values of certain bounds. To make things simple (but not good) let us say that the value "2" means "classical", the value "2 * sqrt2 * sqrt 2" means "super-quantal" (super-entanglements?, stronger non-locality?, FTL?, etc.), the value "2 * sqrt 2" means "quantal". Once again QM is something in between boring behaviours and Star Trek fireworks. That's the only important thing of QM, imo. s. "There is no general consensus as to what its fundamental principles are, how it should be taught, or what it really 'means'. Every competent physicist can 'do' quantum mechanics, but the stories we tell ourselves about what we are doing are as various as the tales of Scheherazade, and almost as implausible." - David J. Griffiths, Introduction to Quantum Mechanics, page VII, preface, Prentice Hall, 1995 (inventor of the consistent histories interpretation of QM). From jonkc at att.net Sun Sep 19 18:18:04 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:18:04 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org><001a01c49d5d$28ad9380$abb01b97@administxl09yj><005101c49dfe$23c58de0$94fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <003901c49e75$0fba8220$baff4d0c@hal2001> "Slawomir Paliwoda" > I'm talking about the trajectories of everything that > contributes to emergence of mind. So you?re talking about the path through space-time of everything that made my mind what it is today, that would include all the atoms that have ever made up my body (they all get recycled every year or so) and all the atoms that made things I have ever touched, and all the photons I have ever encountered including photons from a photograph made from other photons from of a galaxy 11 billion light years away; and it would include all the people I have ever met or even heard of and all the atoms and photons they have ever encountered. I think a map of such a trajectory might be a tad confusing because referring to absolutely everything is equivalent to referring to absolutely nothing. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Sep 19 19:31:38 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:31:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] more on Afshar Experiment, as of 7 weeks ago Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040919142234.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> [That was then and this is now; anyone have anything even more up to date on this important challenge?] http://www.kathryncramer.com/wblog/archives/000687.html [Kathryn is the daughter of John Cramer, who proposed the transactional model of QT] July 29, 2004 Afshar Experiment for a Single Photon Just in via email: Dear Friends, I have a wonderful news! I just received an e-mail from my team at Rowan University: The single-photon experiment confirms my earlier findings! Bohr and Copenhagen are history!!! Thanks for your help and support. Best regards. Shahriar S. Afshar From velvethum at hotmail.com Sun Sep 19 19:38:27 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 15:38:27 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org><001a01c49d5d$28ad9380$abb01b97@administxl09yj><005101c49dfe$23c58de0$94fe4d0c@hal2001> <003901c49e75$0fba8220$baff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: > "Slawomir Paliwoda" > > > I'm talking about the trajectories of everything that > > contributes to emergence of mind. > > So you?re talking about the path through space-time of everything that made > my mind what it is today, that would include all the atoms that have ever > made up my body No. I'm absolutely not talking about trajectories of everything that has ever contributed to sculpting a mind pattern to what it is now, but everything (=all the matter flows in space and time, aka, mind process) that contributes to emergence of mind, right now. When I think of what that is, I don't think exclusively about the information that describes the structure of the brain, but about the activity of matter (electrons, atoms) moving in space and time that produces things like thoughts and consciousness. In order for me to form a thought "I am", or any other thought, that can only happen as a result of electrical impulses traveling through the web of neural network, or, more generally, as a flow of matter in space-time. That same thought could not be formed in the information itself. Mind does not emerge inside a static data about the configuration of matter in the brain, but as a result of *action* that matter performs which can only be described using parameters of space and time. That's why, when I think of what mind is, I imagine it as a process, not as the information about configuration of matter that allows that process to take place. Slawomir From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 19 20:25:38 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:25:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401c49e86$da2cec80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: identity and copies, yet again > > On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 19:48:29 +0100, Sim Bamford wrote: > > > > If a group of friends whom you trust completely sat you > > down today and convinced you that actually you were a copy of > > Mike Lorrey, not the original, would you kill yourself? No of course not. I would *want* a copy of me to exist. We like us. We could entertain ourselves for hours, just telling each other jokes for which we already know the punchlines. If I could have a *female counterpart* otherwise identical copy, now that could *really* be a lotta fun. {8^D Furthermore, I would reason that if I were a actually a copy of me, the original me would reason likewise and would want me to exist. I wouldn't want to disappoint myself by slaying me, would we? spike From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Sep 19 20:42:05 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:42:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040919073757.047ca4d0@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000001c49e89$205adb70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Natasha Vita-More Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter Did anyone read the Betterhumans newsletter and the link to the article trashing "extropian" transhumanists? I wonder if Betterhumans will post Gina's reply. cheers! Natasha After pondering this exchange a while, I realized that the observation "Even bad publicity is better than no publicity" is in some ways an understatement. In an age when we are drowning in advertisement, bad publicity is often better than good publicity. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Sep 19 20:48:57 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:48:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Photographs of Recent Etna Activity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow! Oh, Amara, thank you for posting these. How utterly fantastic to be there and see it all. :) Regards, MB On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Amara Graps wrote: > Dear Extropes, > > Continuing from my previous post > http://www.lucifer.com/pipermail/extropy-chat/2004-September/008741.html > > Photographs of recent Etna Activity: From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sun Sep 19 20:53:59 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 13:53:59 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter References: <000001c49e89$205adb70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <009601c49e8a$c9ec2b70$1db71218@Nano> MessageCan someone please forward me the Betterhumans newsletter that has the mentioned link? Also, the url for my response is here: http://www.nanoindustries.com/essays/extropyresponse.htm Thank you, Gina Natasha Vita-More Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter Did anyone read the Betterhumans newsletter and the link to the article trashing "extropian" transhumanists? I wonder if Betterhumans will post Gina's reply. cheers! Natasha After pondering this exchange a while, I realized that the observation "Even bad publicity is better than no publicity" is in some ways an understatement. In an age when we are drowning in advertisement, bad publicity is often better than good publicity. spike Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Sun Sep 19 21:51:32 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:51:32 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more on Afshar Experiment, as of 7 weeks ago References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040919142234.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <010c01c49e92$eb7629a0$fcc31b97@administxl09yj> > anyone have anything even more up to date on this > important challenge? As told by S.Afshar his paper will appear soon on PRL. Afshar wrote something, here and there, see below. There are several problems of interpretation, of his experiment. ------------------- The (supposed) violation of "complementarity" is this. S.Afshar assumes that a photon - whatever it is - goes, following straight lines (geometric optics), between the slits and the detectors. So he uses mirrors & lenses to reveal which slit the photon passed through. (Notice that also A.Zeilinger used, in 1999, similar assumptions and optics, in a different experiment). But this assumption, motivated by the principle of conservation of momentum, was put in question, since many think that the photon is not a ball, and between the slits and the detectors - the no "collapse" zone - the photon behaves like a wave, or the like. So, in that zone, photons don't go straight. But, in that zone, between the slits and the detectors, Afhar also located many little wires, located exactly at the (calculated) minima of interference (supposing this time that, in that zone, the photon behaves *also* like a wave, or the like). The results of the experiments are that photons passing through the slits (also one at a time) are recorded by the detectors (they also record - in assumption - the specific slit the photons passed through) and they are not intercepted by those little slits (meaning that they are also "waves"). Wave-like and particle-like properties of photons in the same experiment. Complementarity violated (?). ----------- [S.Afshar speaks here] "It is true that before the measurement is made at the image plane, one can use the superposition, however, upon the measurement, the which-slit information is established and retrodictively, one must assign a particular slit to the photon. When you collapse the superposition state, only one of the slits will be found as the origin, (that is to say the Cat is found either to be dead or alive...), I will address this issue in a theoretical paper on the theory of measurement in a couple of months. At issue is the law of conservation of linear momentum, [...]" "The issue of retrodiction and so forth has its origins in Heisenberg's own writings, later expanded by Einstein, von Neumann and many others, (lately Griffiths, Gel-Mann etc.). Again at stake are the conservation laws..." "I (and every quantum theorist) agree that the quantum formalism in my experiment predicts an earlier interference and a later which-slit determination at the image plan. As much was agreed upon even between Einstein and Bohr (See Wheeler ref.s on his delayed-choice experiments). The issue is "measurement". According to CI, "measurement" of the which-slit information for a photon, makes it (non-locally) to have behaved like a particle, (i.e. a BB), thus incapable of having interfered." "The source of the contention is not the quantum-mechanical formalism; it is the ad-hoc assumptions injected to the QM by the measurement theorists, the first of whom were Bohr, Heisenberg and Pauli." "Here's a quote from Bohr himself discussing the welcher-weg experiments: <...we are presented with a choice of either tracing the path of the particle, or observing interference effects.we have to do with a typical example of how the complementary phenomena appear under mutually exclusive experimental arrangements>" N. Bohr, in: Albert Einstein: Philosopher-Scientist, P. A. Schlipp Ed., Library of Living Philosophers, Evanston, Illinois, 1949" --------------- Comments. 1) Those little wires, located at the (supposed) minima of interference (assuming that photons behave like waves, at least in that zone) do not perform a measurement (they perform a negative measurement). Thus the existence of waves (or interference) is an inference, a deduction. 2) "At issue is the law of conservation of linear momentum" says Afshar. This issue is not new at all. Many wrote papers speaking of possible retro-actions (backwards in time, if "time" has a meaning here) from the detectors to the momentum distribution function at the slits. (Riedtijk, Zurek, Wootters; also Klyshko, and Bennett). 3) Wave-like and particle-like behaviours are revealed in distinct points and times (at the wires, at the detectors). From sjvans at ameritech.net Sun Sep 19 22:00:31 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:00:31 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <000401c49e86$da2cec80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000401c49e86$da2cec80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <1095631230.1550.57.camel@Renfield> On Sun, 2004-09-19 at 15:25, Spike wrote: > No of course not. I would *want* a copy of me to exist. We like > us. We could entertain ourselves for hours, just telling each > other jokes for which we already know the punchlines. If I > could have a *female counterpart* otherwise identical copy, > now that could *really* be a lotta fun. {8^D To the tune of "Home on the Range": Oh, give me a clone Of my own flesh and bone With its Y chromosome changed to X And when I'm alone With my very own clone We will both think of nothing but sex -Issac Asimov From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Sep 19 22:14:47 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:14:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: identity and copies, yet again In-Reply-To: <1095631230.1550.57.camel@Renfield> References: <000401c49e86$da2cec80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <1095631230.1550.57.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040919171308.019ffd18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > >-Issac Asimov He was the hated clone of Isaac Asimov, who detested that incorrect spelling with a passion, almost as much as he loathed `Azimov' (the third clone). Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Sun Sep 19 22:31:35 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:31:35 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] more on Afshar Experiment, as of 7 weeks ago In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040919142234.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040919142234.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:31:38 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > July 29, 2004 > > Afshar Experiment for a Single Photon > It seems that Afshar is still unpublished and formal peer-review has not happened yet. The jury is still out. One opposing view from W Unruh dated Aug 7 2004, is here: Another from M Pitkanen, Dept. of Physics, University of Helsinki: BillK From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Sep 19 22:41:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:41:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] more on Afshar Experiment, as of 7 weeks ago In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040919142234.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040919174015.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:31 PM 9/19/2004 +0100, BillK wrote: >One opposing view from W Unruh dated Aug 7 2004, is here: > Yeah, but Afshar's (perhaps glib) comment on that is already here: http://users.rowan.edu/~afshar/FAQ.htm Unruh has suggested a ?simpler version? of my experiment, in which Complementarity survives. His reasoning is fallacious. As an analogy, one can argue that a ?simpler? airplane can be constructed by removing the wings, however, naturally this ?simpler? version would be incapable of flight. Similarly Unruh?s thought experiment is certainly simpler than my experimental setup, but one cannot blame it for not performing the same feat: it is an inherently different experiment! In short, the source of Unruh?s error is the commonly-sited assumption of an exact one-to-one correlation between Mach-Zehnder and double-slit interferometers I suggest that he addresses the actual experiment I have performed and calculate the expected results on whether the ?which-way? information (?which-slit? information for a double-slit welcher-Weg experiment) is destroyed by the presence of the wires, rather than discuss his version. I?m pressed for deadlines right now, but in a few days I will provide a much more detailed response. From fauxever at sprynet.com Mon Sep 20 00:46:39 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:46:39 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] More Transparency Message-ID: <001b01c49eab$4a54e390$6600a8c0@brainiac> ... now being brought to you by MSFT: http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/040919/microsoft_source_code_2.html Olga (in stock scouter search mode again) From sentience at pobox.com Mon Sep 20 01:40:54 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:40:54 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Changing sex is difficult (was: identity and copies) In-Reply-To: <000401c49e86$da2cec80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <000401c49e86$da2cec80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <414E3526.7030709@pobox.com> Spike wrote: > > No of course not. I would *want* a copy of me to exist. We like > us. We could entertain ourselves for hours, just telling each > other jokes for which we already know the punchlines. If I > could have a *female counterpart* otherwise identical copy, > now that could *really* be a lotta fun. {8^D "Otherwise identical"? Spending a week as a member of the opposite sex is a favorite item on my ever-growing list of "Things transhumanists say they want that are much more complicated and dangerous to actually do than to rattle off as short English sentences." Let's assume we're talking about an M2F transformation. Want to spend a few days wearing a female body? Even at this very shallow level, we're dealing with some fairly massive remappings of the somatic map, the motor map, the reflexes, the motor skills, the somatic connections to the pleasure centers... and when all of that was done you'd have a vagina-shaped penis. You wouldn't *be* a woman. You'd still be attracted to girls, and no, that would not make you a lesbian; you'd be a normal, masculine man wearing a female body. Xox yourself, and the version of you wearing a female body will flee from the original body and pursue Cindy Crawford. The xox certainly wouldn't have sex with *you*. Bleah! Want to actually *be* a female? Swapping out your Y chromosome for your father's X chromosome doesn't make you a woman. Your neurons are already wired in a male pattern; you developed from birth in the masculine pattern. Maybe if you swapped the genes, your neurons would slowly start to rewire themselves under the influence of the new genetic instructions. Maybe you'd end up epileptic. At best you'd end up as a half-assed cross between male brain and female brain. Your brain wouldn't look anything like it would look if you'd developed as a female from the beginning. Leave aside, for the moment, the question of childhood memories and experiences you don't have; the fact that you'll have never been a little girl and won't know how to apply makeup. If you want to be female, we need to give you a female brain; female emotions, female psychology. We need to do this while preserving your memories and skills that were patterned onto male brainware, male emotions and male psychology. Imagine the task of taking an eighth-dan blackbelt in judo, and transforming his body to female, while preserving his martial arts skills in such a way that he is still a competitive eighth-dan blackbelt. It's not just spinal reflexes; he has conscious, learned memories for how to fight as a man that don't apply to fighting as a woman. As with motor skills, so with cognitive skills. You know how to operate a male mind; do you know how to operate a female mind? We're talking about a *massive* transformation here, billions of neurons and trillions of synapses rearranged. Large enough to disrupt personal continuity? If I fell asleep and woke up as a true woman, not just in body alone, I don't think I'd call her "me" - the change is too sharp. Will your brain transform gradually? Hm, now we have the task of designing the intermediate stages and making sure the intermediate stages make self-consistent sense. What happens when, as a woman, you think back to your memory of looking at Cindy Crawford photos as a man? How do you empathize with your own past self of the opposite gender? Do you flee in horror from the person you were? Are all your life's memories distant and alien things? Or do we retain your old male brainware through the transformation and set up a dual male-female structure such that you are currently female but retain the ability to recall and empathise with your past memories as if they were running on the same male brainware that originally laid them down? Sounds complicated, doesn't it? It seems that to transform a male brain into a person who can be a real female, we can't just rewrite you as a female brain; we have to rewrite you as a more complex brain with an architecture that can cross-operate in realtime between male and female modes, so that a female can process male memories with a remembered context that includes the male brainware that laid them down. To make you female, yet still you, we must step outside the human space of mind designs in order to preserve continuity with your male self. And then when you go back to being a man, you need to keep the female brainware and dual architecture so that you don't throw up when you think back on all those wonderful sweaty men you had sex with during your feminine vacation. (Assuming you did have sex as a woman, rather than fending off all comers because they didn't look like they were interested in a long-term relationship.) So spending a week as a member of the opposite sex may be a common sexual fantasy, but I wouldn't count on being able to do this six seconds after the Singularity. I would not be surprised to find that it took three subjective centuries before anyone had grown far enough to attempt a gender switch. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Sep 20 03:13:48 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:13:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Changing sex is difficult (was: identity and copies) In-Reply-To: <414E3526.7030709@pobox.com> Message-ID: <000201c49ebf$d8c27020$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > "Otherwise identical"? > > Spending a week as a member of the opposite sex is a favorite > item on my > ever-growing list of "Things transhumanists say they want > that are much > more complicated and dangerous to actually do than to rattle > off as short > English sentences."... > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence All right pal, what have you done with Eliezer? Hand over the ransom note... From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 03:55:30 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:55:30 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nature magazine: BUSH vs KERRY on science In-Reply-To: <20040917181945.56479.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <074801c49cdc$2254af90$ec202dcb@homepc> <20040917181945.56479.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7a321705040919205511eac1ea@mail.gmail.com> Hmm. Okay, I'm convinced. I vote for Kerry. Zero On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:19:45 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > It is also clear that Bush properly believes that science is > not something that the federal government should be funding... From zero.powers at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 04:05:12 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:05:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch In-Reply-To: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com> Holy moly! Is this for real?!? Am I reading more into this than is warranted or has someone really built a "creative" robot? Zero On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:24:52 -0700 (PDT), Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > >From eMediaWire: For the first time in history, a > robot has built its own synthetic central nervous > system and then learned not only to walk, but how to > autonomously enter and navigate the corridors of > complex buildings. This dramatic experiment was > recently conducted at Imagination Engines, Inc. (IEI) > in St. Louis, Missouri. Neural networks spontaneously > connect themselves in a matter of seconds into the > neural circuitry required for extremely ambitious > robotic brains. The resulting neural network > architecture both resembles and functions like a > brain, a collection of individual neural networks > fused into a contemplative system that can form > complete models of their worlds, consider alternative > scenarios, and finally choose that alternative best > suited to a given problem. > http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/9/emw159636.htm > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 04:38:32 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:08:32 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch In-Reply-To: <7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> <7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040919213877a3663f@mail.gmail.com> It's only a press release... I can't find any real information. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:05:12 -0700, Zero Powers wrote: > Holy moly! Is this for real?!? Am I reading more into this than is > warranted or has someone really built a "creative" robot? > > Zero > > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 04:24:52 -0700 (PDT), Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > > wrote: > > >From eMediaWire: For the first time in history, a > > robot has built its own synthetic central nervous > > system and then learned not only to walk, but how to > > autonomously enter and navigate the corridors of > > complex buildings. This dramatic experiment was > > recently conducted at Imagination Engines, Inc. (IEI) > > in St. Louis, Missouri. Neural networks spontaneously > > connect themselves in a matter of seconds into the > > neural circuitry required for extremely ambitious > > robotic brains. The resulting neural network > > architecture both resembles and functions like a > > brain, a collection of individual neural networks > > fused into a contemplative system that can form > > complete models of their worlds, consider alternative > > scenarios, and finally choose that alternative best > > suited to a given problem. > > http://www.emediawire.com/releases/2004/9/emw159636.htm > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sentience at pobox.com Mon Sep 20 05:52:45 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 01:52:45 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch In-Reply-To: <7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> <7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <414E702D.6090807@pobox.com> Zero Powers wrote: > Holy moly! Is this for real?!? Let me put it this way: I'm not panicking, and I strive to panic very easily. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From es at popido.com Mon Sep 20 06:06:29 2004 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:06:29 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch In-Reply-To: <414E702D.6090807@pobox.com> References: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> <7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com> <414E702D.6090807@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040920075947.0572c490@mail.popido.com> At 07:52 2004-09-20 Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: >Zero Powers wrote: >>Holy moly! Is this for real?!? > >Let me put it this way: I'm not panicking, and I strive to panic very easily. Is this Stephen Thaler-guy for real? I've been reading about his creativity machines before, but his home page looks like your average cult leaders': http://www.imagination-engines.com/index.htm His idea? Neural nets with noise. Gillette, GE and Boeing are appearantly buying his services. Should I be impressed? Erik From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Sep 20 06:10:26 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:10:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: Bob Woodwards book - Plan of Attack Message-ID: <414E7452.F7BCF4FB@mindspring.com> I recommend the group biography of Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, Powell, and Armitage, _The Rise of the Vulcans: The History of Bush's War Cabinet_ by James Mann (2004). Excellent book; the author had direct access to four of the above six (all except Cheney and Rumsfeld). -- Jim Lippard lippard-skeptic at discord.org http://www.discord.org/ GPG Key ID: 0xF8D42CFE On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 08:42:42PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin fwded: > I just finished reading Bob Woodwards book _Plan of Attack_ I'd heard that > both the Bush and Kerry campaigns were supportive of it and thought that > Bob Woodward of Watergate fame might do a reasonable job of inpartially > reporting the facts. Michael Moore didn't really work for me. > > Some reviews here: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/074325547X//ref=pd_sim_books_1/104-8660731-7955105?v=glance&s=books&vi=reviews > > Anyone else read this? > > I found it fascinating the way Woodward was able to report what Bush had said > (he'd interviewed Bush and a lot of the players personally) while leaving it to > the reader to make their own judgement on whether Bush was decisive or a fool. > Imo, pretty much either interpretation could be drawn depending on the readers > predisposition to Bush. That's canny political writing. > > Brett Paatsch -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 20 06:08:53 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:08:53 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: <20040917175709.A6D0957E2A@finney.org><001a01c49d5d$28ad9380$abb01b97@administxl09yj><005101c49dfe$23c58de0$94fe4d0c@hal2001><003901c49e75$0fba8220$baff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <01db01c49ed8$900d93f0$2dfe4d0c@hal2001> "Slawomir Paliwoda" > I don't think exclusively about the information that > describes the structure of the brain, but about the > activity of matter (electrons, atoms) moving in > space and time that produces things like thoughts > and consciousness. And in a earlier response you admitted there is nothing special about the particular atoms in your brain, and now you say even the information on the way those generic atoms are arranged is not what makes you be you and me be me. That doesn?t leave much left, so if you?re correct then the only logical conclusion to draw is that holy rollers are right after all and we posses a soul that is inaccessible to science. Just between you and me I don?t think the holy rollers are right. > In order for me to form a thought "I am", or any > other thought, that can only happen as a result of > electrical impulses traveling through the web of > neural network Absolutely not true. Lots of things other than electrical impulses would work, anything that can carry information would work including photons, which makes nonsense of your unique position in space-time for a unique brain idea. > Mind does not emerge inside a static data about > the configuration of matter in the brain The data is static only if you take a snapshot of the brain as it is this very instant, an instant later the data would be slightly different. I don?t see why you have any objection to the importance of that especially when you seem to emphasize the importance of The Now. I quote you: ?I'm absolutely not talking about trajectories of everything that has ever contributed to sculpting a mind pattern to what it is now, but everything (=all the matter flows in space and time, aka, mind process) that contributes to emergence of mind, right now.? > when I think of what mind is, I imagine it as a process, > not as the information about configuration of matter > that allows that process to take place. That is exactly what I don?t understand about your position. You can emphasize the importance of process all you want, I won?t even argue the point, but if we organize other atoms in the same way that you admit are no different from the atoms in your brain we end up with exactly the same process. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From sentience at pobox.com Mon Sep 20 07:30:54 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 03:30:54 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040920075947.0572c490@mail.popido.com> References: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com> <7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com> <414E702D.6090807@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040920075947.0572c490@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <414E872E.4070104@pobox.com> Erik Starck wrote: > > Is this Stephen Thaler-guy for real? I've been reading about his > creativity machines before, but his home page looks like your average > cult leaders': > http://www.imagination-engines.com/index.htm > > His idea? Neural nets with noise. Gillette, GE and Boeing are > appearantly buying his services. Should I be impressed? I certainly have not been impressed. Speaking as an earnest devotee of the second law of thermodynamics, I don't believe that creativity is the result of injecting entropy into a system. It's hard to dismiss AI theories unless they're really, really crackpot (e.g. Mentifex), because AI theories are so hard to understand. I still don't understand Ben Goertzel's Novamente system, for example, even after reading a book about it. There are claims made on Thaler's site (such as application to realtime trading) which I don't think the system described should be able to do at all, implying that they're not describing everything or that the claims are bogus. Possibly the former. The front page reads like it was written by a cult *follower*; if you hunt around there's some technical stuff that's less breathless and that makes sense when considered in isolation, though the enormous overinflated claims attached to it are par for the AI course. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 20 07:38:23 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:08:23 +0930 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE010931D4@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04092000384fa317c8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:19:05 -0400, Slawomir Paliwoda wrote: > > Perhaps Slawomir feels that part of his 'identity' is encoded in the > > dynamics of moving chemicals and charges and that this dynamical > > information is lost during cryopreservation. > > Here's my precise definition of identity: > > Personal identity is defined by the uniqueness of mind process in > space-time. > > (Dynamic of moving chemicals and charges, or a "flow of matter in > space-time", as I call it, is the correct characterization of what I > perceive as a process. Cryopreservation, if it works correctly, doesn't > destroy that process, but merely pauses it. Since identity is grounded in > that process, it won't dissolve as long as that process doesn't degenerate > into a non-mind activity or perish altogether). > > Slawomir > I have in the past thought that we were process, not program, as Slawomir evidently does. However, the more I think about it, the less I can identify this process. What is a process? Show me a process! Even in a computer, a process is a nebulous thing. A program can be identified as a pattern of bits stored somewhere. Hardware can be made to run programs, but here we get into trouble. A process seems to be a the pattern in memory which the hardware, running according to the instructions in a program, causes to exist at any point in time; that pattern is self influenced because the hardware refers both to it and to the program to work out what to do next. Now that process looks like a dynamic thing, until you realize it can be frozen. The hardware can be stopped momentarily, for instance. In that moment, where is the dynamic nature of the process? It is a pattern in memory. Further, computers implement process switching (multi processing). They can take all the memory that defines a process, and write it elsewhere (eg out to different memory or to disk). Then they can copy another process into the memory space previously inhabited by the original process. Where is the original process? It sits as a static pattern somewhere, waiting to be brought back to the place where hardware can act on it according to the program and to its own contents. If it is brought back, is it the same process, or a copy? This same analysis applies to a human. I trivially support this by noting that we could hypothetically upload a human including brain, body, and virtual environment, into a computer if we had detailed enough instruments and powerful enough machines. Then the human would run on a sim brain and sim body, but function exactly as before, so that if the original was a conscious entity, so too should be the uploaded copy. This uploaded copy would now be process in the software sense, subject to the same regimen of process switching, memory management and whatnot that a regular computer process is subject to. My analysis here is supposed to show that process is nothing but pattern. A computer process has a stored pattern called program and a usually (but not necessarily) more volatile pattern called process. A person has a program pattern that is the sum of the arrangement of materials in the brain and body, and a process consisting of the sum of positions of chemicals, electrical signals, etc, in that brain and body. The boundary here in fact is difficult to define. This is all pattern, information. To propose that process is somehow something more than information begs the question of what it is. What is the second entity invited into this universe of information? Is process somehow supposed to be soul? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From scerir at libero.it Mon Sep 20 07:52:19 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 09:52:19 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its OwnBrain and Learns from Scratch References: <20040919112452.18650.qmail@web50803.mail.yahoo.com><7a321705040919210564ca5e81@mail.gmail.com><414E702D.6090807@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040920075947.0572c490@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <000b01c49ee6$c20d6160$67b51b97@administxl09yj> > His idea? Neural nets with noise. > Erik "This coming World Brain will not be accessed via search engines. We will simply ask it to introspect on the information we, as humans, seek." - Imagination Engines, Inc. Neural nets with a lot of noise, and spam. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 15:39:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nature magazine: BUSH vs KERRY on science In-Reply-To: <7a321705040919205511eac1ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040920153938.10217.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > Hmm. Okay, I'm convinced. I vote for Kerry. > > Zero > > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 11:19:45 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > > It is also clear that Bush properly believes that science is > > not something that the federal government should be funding... If you care at all about individual liberty in the transhuman age, you would be dead set against the government having any kind of control or funding of scientific research. That way lies borg. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Sep 20 18:06:19 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Story of a Brain In-Reply-To: <20040918191859.BC60A57E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040920180619.29923.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> As others have noted, the "impulse cartridges", if they work as described, essentially completely replicate the individual. But there is also a second discontinuity point: when the later individual substitutes his own brain for the (now dead) original neuron. One could easily argue that - even if it is just a small amount - this is substituting part of the later individual for the earlier one, and thus no longer a true recreation of the earlier individual. A very, very close approximation, perhaps not with immediately measurable differences, but different (and likely eventually measurably so) nonetheless. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 20:03:12 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch In-Reply-To: <414E872E.4070104@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040920200312.44476.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > The front > page reads like it was written by a cult *follower*; if you hunt > around there's some technical stuff that's less breathless and that > makes sense > when considered in isolation, though the enormous overinflated claims > attached to it are par for the AI course. And what qualitative difference is there between a breathless cult follower and an effective PR Flak? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 20 20:19:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] more on Afshar Experiment, as of 7 weeks ago In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040920201929.71627.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:31:38 -0500, Damien Broderick wrote: > > > > > > July 29, 2004 > > > > Afshar Experiment for a Single Photon > > > > It seems that Afshar is still unpublished and formal peer-review has > not happened yet. > The jury is still out. > > One opposing view from W Unruh dated Aug 7 2004, is here: > > > Another from M Pitkanen, Dept. of Physics, University of Helsinki: > I would have to say that the use of inference is the problem, the drawing conclusion from an absence. This is faulty, like saying, "Well, I just heard thunder, but I wasn't struck on this side of my house, it must have hit my front yard..." ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From velvethum at hotmail.com Mon Sep 20 20:30:18 2004 From: velvethum at hotmail.com (Slawomir Paliwoda) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:30:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nature of process (was Re: A view on cryonics) References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE010931D4@amazemail2.amazeent.com> <710b78fc04092000384fa317c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Emlyn wrote: > I have in the past thought that we were process, not program, as > Slawomir evidently does. However, the more I think about it, the less > I can identify this process. What is a process? Show me a process! I admit that conveying a sense of the nature of process is extremely difficult, and I find that inability to grasp that nature is often the reason why people's attention shifts to a familiar concept of "soul". It's basically how religious thought is created, by satisfying mind's constant craving to fill comprehension gaps with "whatever fits". But first, let me say few things about the difference between process and soul. The "process" is an attempt to contain subjective experience in terms of measurable "things" that really exist, namely, the flow of matter in space-time. The difference between subjective experience and soul, as I understand the concept, is that the former lasts only for the duration of that flow, while the latter lasts forever, even if the mind substrate no longer exists. This means that existence of soul must not depend on matter, or its configuration, while subjective experience always does (not just on matter itself, of course, but on the activity of that matter in space-time). And, since I have no way of knowing or measuring what that non-matter might be, I can't claim to know that souls exist. Now, let me give a sense of what I mean by "process". Suppose the center of the ball travels from space-time point P1 to P2. The movement is recorded in small time intervals so that the center of the ball traveling from P1 to P2 produces the set of, say, 1000 coordinate points (from x1, y1, z1, t1 to x1000, y1000, z1000, t1000) to better approximate the movement. Eventually, I decide to record the same movement in infinitely small time intervals. This will provide the only *true* approximation of the movement. By doing that I've truly measured everything there is to know about the movement. Does it mean, then, that the measurement captures the essence of what movement is? No, because the measurement is not the movement itself. For a movement to occur, it's not enough to show its measurement. The movement must actually happen. The activity that *happens* in space and time can never have a substitute other than what it is itself. Measurement of the matter of mind can never be a substitute for the *action* that happens to that matter in space and time. That action is what I call the "process". > Now that process looks like a dynamic thing, until you realize it can > be frozen. The hardware can be stopped momentarily, for instance. In > that moment, where is the dynamic nature of the process? Let's say I throw a ball upwards. The "process", in this case, is the movement of the ball, or, more precisely, the energy of the ball. On its way up, the kinetic energy converts into potential energy that becomes maximum at some instant when the ball freezes in the air. However, the "potential for movement" is still there at that instant, even though the ball doesn't move. And so it is with the mind process that is represented by kinetic energy (mind's actual existence) in the analogy, while a mind pattern stores potential energy of the mind (mind's potential to exist). Remember, though, that the above is merely an analogy - there's no such thing as the Law of Conservation of Mind. Slawomir From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Sep 20 23:46:03 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:46:03 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering Message-ID: <414F6BBB.4C6CDBFC@mindspring.com> Texas Tech has engineered safe rooms for houses that can withstand a F5 tornado (it was proved to be so in Moore OK in 1999) and thus should also be able to withstand a Cat 5. Upscaling the engineering would probably be cheaper. Steve -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Sep 20 23:53:28 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:53:28 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040918181655.12823.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040918115404.88544.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920194408.05a87c48@unreasonable.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >Whether or not this should be the case is another >story. But it's been well established that intent >alone is insufficient. (Granted, there have been >prosecutions based on the most minimal of deeds. If >you could find some deed to charge him on, you might >have a case. What you have cited here is not actually >illegal behavior. Conspiracy is a felony, whether the crime is committed or not. Curiously, conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor is a felony. Also, if I fire a gun I think is loaded but isn't, or shoot a corpse I thought was still alive, I can be found guilty of attempted murder (assuming the other elements are present). -- David Lubkin. From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Sep 20 23:47:31 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:47:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) In a way, I would welcome this Message-ID: <414F6C13.BB050874@mindspring.com> Since it would more or less be the end of this organization. http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_3795.shtml Iran Mullah President Considered for UN Sec-Gen Post Persian Journal Iran News Iran Mullah President Considered for UN Sec-Gen Post Sep 17, 2004, 10:11 Iran plans to propose President mullah Mohammad Khatami to become the next United Nations Secretary General, IRNA reported. Chairman of Iran's House of Political Parties Hassan Ghafourifard said he would discuss the issue with Khatami soon, and that a special committee would be formed to follow up due proceedings. He said he had been informed that the next UN secretary general would be elected from Asia at the recent International Conference of Asian Political Parties (ICAPP) in Beijing. Ghafourifard added that the nomination of Thai Foreign Minister Surakiart Sathirathai for the post had provoked him to lobby for Khatami considering his "creditable cultural and political background" as Iran's president. "I have proposed Khatami for the post by considering the fact that he initiated the idea of 'Dialogue Among Civilizations' against Hantington's 'Clashes of Civilizations' and also that 2001 was named as the Year of Dialogue Among Civilizations after Khatami's initiative," he said. Ghafourifard further highlighted the efforts of President Khatami to promote the policy of detente in the international community as another reason for proposing him to win the UN post of secretary general. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Sep 20 23:48:51 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:48:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) Accuracy noted in al-Reuters articles: Reuters complains Message-ID: <414F6C63.A39614@mindspring.com> < http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2004/09/17/canwesterrorist040917.html > Newspapers accused of misusing word 'terrorist' Last Updated Fri, 17 Sep 2004 23:09:40 EDT OTTAWA - Canada's largest newspaper chain, CanWest Global, is being criticized over its use of the word "terrorist" in stories about the Middle East. The owner of the National Post and dozens of other papers across Canada is being accused of inappropriately inserting the word into newswire copy dealing with the Middle East, thereby changing the meaning of those stories. One of the world's leading news agencies, Reuters, said CanWest newspapers have been altering words and phrases in stories dealing with the war in Iraq and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Reuters told CBC News it would complain to CanWest about the issue. The global managing editor for Reuters, David Schlesinger, called such changes unacceptable. He said CanWest had crossed a line from editing for style to editing the substance and slant of news from the Middle East. "If they want to put their own judgment into it, they're free to do that, but then they shouldn't say that it's by a Reuters reporter," said Schlesinger. As an example, Schlesinger cited a recent Reuters story, in which the original copy read: "...the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which has been involved in a four-year-old revolt against Israeli occupation in Gaza and the West Bank." In the National Post version of the story, printed Tuesday, it became: "...the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, a terrorist group that has been involved in a four-year-old campaign of violence against Israel." Neither the National Post nor CanWest returned calls. But the Ottawa Citizen, another CanWest paper, has admitted to making erroneous changes in a story about Iraq from another leading news agency. Last week, the Citizen inserted the word "terrorist" seven times into an Associated Press story on the Iraqi city of Fallujah, where Iraqi insurgents have been battling U.S.-led occupation forces. In an interview, Ottawa Citizen editor Scott Anderson conceded fighters in Fallujah were not terrorists but said CanWest has a policy of renaming some groups as terrorists. He added the paper had applied that term primarily to Arab groups, and that mistakes had been made occasionally. However, Anderson said he did not believe the paper had a duty to inform its readers when it changed words. "We're editing for style...," he said. "We're editing so that we have clear consistent language to describe what's going on in the world. And if we've made a mistake, we should correct that. And we will." In response to a reader's letter published Friday about the Fallujah article, the Citizen wrote: "The changes to the Associated Press story do not reflect Citizen policy, which is to use the term 'terrorist' to describe someone who deliberately targets civilians. As such, the changes to the Associated Press story were made in error." Riad Saloojee, the head of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Canada, says the organization wants Canadian press watchdogs to investigate CanWest. "We're going to be asking the Ontario Press Council to investigate exactly the extent of this policy across the country in other CanWest publications," said Saloojee. Written by CBC News Online staff Copyright ?2004 Canadian Broadcasting Corporation - All Rights Reserved -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From extropy at unreasonable.com Tue Sep 21 00:15:26 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:15:26 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49c5f$b654bf50$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920195350.090ae7e0@unreasonable.com> Spike wrote: >Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you >will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. I've been rather disappointed with Badnarik, even by comparison with some of the dubious characters the LP has nominated in other years. The last presidential nominee of any party that I genuinely would want to have had in office was Goldwater, although I appreciate Ron Paul and was very impressed by Nancy Lord. >I think you said you are from Taxifornia? Me too. >We have the luxury of voting for whoever we think is >best here, without fear of actually effecting the >outcome of the election. {8-] Alas, I live in a small battleground state. If I chose to volunteer for the Bush or Kerry campaigns, my personal effort could conceivably decide the election. OTOH, the way things are going, Bush will win in a national landslide. Either way, we should encourage people we know in states where the outcome is assured to vote for a third-party candidate. >Surely this is all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. Perhaps the >forged documents were planted by some Limbaughian scoundrel, poison bait >which DNCBS, the NY Times and the Boston Globe all devoured with glee, >from which they are still wretching violently. If we're looking for conspiratorial explanations, I'm more inclined to suspect Hillary's cronies. They need Kerry to lose without leaving their fingerprints on the deed, in order to clear the way for a 2008 run. - David Lubkin. From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 21 00:38:27 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:38:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Backdoor Draft? Message-ID: <001801c49f73$4f988eb0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Bush doesn't have the political courage to call for a regular draft before the Nov. 2 elections, so he's taking advantage of our reservists and National Guardsmen until then. Here's an example, as reported by Dick Foster in the Rocky Mountain News last Thursday: "Soldiers from a Fort Carson combat unit say they have been issued an ultimatum -- re-enlist for three more years or be transferred to other units expected to deploy to Iraq.": http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/09/20/hsorensen.DTL Olga From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 00:58:01 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 17:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920194408.05a87c48@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <20040921005801.8516.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Lubkin wrote: > Adrian Tymes wrote: > > >Whether or not this should be the case is another > >story. But it's been well established that intent > >alone is insufficient. (Granted, there have been > >prosecutions based on the most minimal of deeds. If > >you could find some deed to charge him on, you might > >have a case. What you have cited here is not actually > >illegal behavior. > > Conspiracy is a felony, whether the crime is committed or not. > Curiously, conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor is a felony. > > Also, if I fire a gun I think is loaded but isn't, or shoot a corpse > I thought was still alive, I can be found guilty of attempted murder > (assuming the other elements are present). Is this like beating a dead horse to see if its still alive? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Sep 21 01:01:21 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:01:21 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920195350.090ae7e0@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <007801c49f76$825851c0$ec202dcb@homepc> David Lubkin wrote: > I've been rather disappointed with Badnarik, even by > comparison with some of the dubious characters the LP > has nominated in other years. The last presidential nominee >of any party that I genuinely would want to have had in office > was Goldwater, although I appreciate Ron Paul and was very > impressed by Nancy Lord. .. > Alas, I live in a small battleground state. If I chose to volunteer > for the Bush or Kerry campaigns, my personal effort could > conceivably decide the election. OTOH, the way things are > going, Bush will win in a national landslide. As Spike pointed out there is a lot of red on the map at http://electoral-vote.com/ and its been trending towards redder. Still if you add the strong and weak Kerry electoral votes you get 173 and the strong and weak Bush give 237. 270 being the magic number. There are a lot more barely Bushes 90 than barely Kerries 38 so the host of the site was arguing shifts to Kerry should be easier than further shifts to Bush. Looks to me like the real battleground states are Florida (27) and Pennsylvannia (21). New Hampshire's (4) have appeared to be weak Kerry for some time. You can (obviously ;-) opt out of this if you want David, but I'm curious as to how someone like you interesting in politics and living in a battleground state sees the "relevative" pros and cons of the two electable candidates. Care to to do a summary as you see it? Sitting in Australia I can see why US libertarians might well and rationally prefer a lower taxing Bush than Kerry domestically, is that the main differentiator? Regards, Brett Paatsch From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 21 02:50:46 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:50:46 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920195350.090ae7e0@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <000001c49f85$cbc7eb40$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > David Lubkin > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org > > > Spike wrote: > > >Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you > >will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. > > I've been rather disappointed with Badnarik... His website hits all the right buttons with me. {8-] > ...the way things are going, Bush will win in a national landslide. What is causing that? Can it be that the Rather Bounce really is that big? I heard Dan's heartfelt confession on the radio today. Whereas it sure *sounded* genuine, Im not buying it for a minute. They ran the original story on short notice, apparently over the objections of several of their sources, they had pleeeeenty of evidence regarding the documents' origin by 9 September, whereas they were *still* hanging on a week later. With today's claim that they were mislead, they are claiming incompetence but not malice. But in the stonewalling and stone throwing, I see amply sufficient evidence of malice. OK my friends, I partially disqualify my own conclusions because I have been deeply suspicious of Dan Rather and 60 Minutes for a long time. For those of you who consider yourselves neutral or nearly so, what is your take? Forget for the moment that one candidate or another may or may not have been helped or harmed; that is almost beside the point. This question is about mainstream news media. We may have already beaten this topic beyond recognition, but there have been some interesting new developments just today. > If we're looking for conspiratorial explanations, I'm more > inclined to suspect Hillary's cronies. They need Kerry to lose without > leaving their fingerprints on the deed, in order to clear the way for a 2008 run. > > > - David Lubkin. {8^D Well thats the first Ive heard of THAT notion. Do let me ponder it further before commenting. spike From sjvans at ameritech.net Tue Sep 21 03:26:16 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:26:16 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Backdoor Draft? In-Reply-To: <001801c49f73$4f988eb0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <001801c49f73$4f988eb0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <1095737176.1592.65.camel@Renfield> On Mon, 2004-09-20 at 19:38, Olga Bourlin wrote: > "Soldiers from a Fort Carson combat unit say they have been issued an > ultimatum -- re-enlist for three more years or be transferred to other units > expected to deploy to Iraq.": Nothing new about this at all. I was threatened with random call-up for training, interfering with college, to try and coerce me into the active reserves. This was in the mid 80's. Recruiters say all kinds of stuff, and then deny it, to make their quotas. As far as I can tell, there is no need at all for a draft, nor would it accomplish anything. But I can certainly see pressure to keep trained and experienced troops, which a draft would only make even more of a problem. That kind of pressure translates into all kinds of stupidity when it trickles down. From amara.graps at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 05:00:49 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:00:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: Kerry would win in a landslide. http://www.iht.com/articles/537873.html (not because he is that popular, but because Bush is that unpopular) Amara From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 21 05:33:18 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49f85$cbc7eb40$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040921053318.90103.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > OK my friends, I partially disqualify my own > conclusions > because I have been deeply suspicious of Dan Rather > and > 60 Minutes for a long time. For those of you who > consider > yourselves neutral or nearly so, what is your take? > Forget > for the moment that one candidate or another may or > may > not have been helped or harmed; that is almost > beside the > point. This question is about mainstream news > media. I'll admit I haven't heard all the evidence, but from what I have heard, there was at least some honest error. *Someone* probably crafted the document with malice in mind, but it's difficult to say who: someone associated with the media just wanting to create a story (in which case the poor forgery could have been intentional, to create another story), someone who wanted to see Bush get it, or someone who deliberately created a low-quality forgery and planted it so that the Kerry crowd would seem desparate. There are people in all three camps with enough motive and low enough morals to do such a deed. That said, it was irresponsible of Rather et al to run it without doing a bit more checking. Whether that irresponsibility came from partisanship or from fever to run a story is another question, but whatever the emotions responsible, they got in the way of professional logic. From es at popido.com Tue Sep 21 05:36:30 2004 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:36:30 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Fully Autonomous Robot Builds Its Own Brain and Learns from Scratch In-Reply-To: <20040920200312.44476.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <414E872E.4070104@pobox.com> <20040920200312.44476.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040921073232.05745320@mail.popido.com> At 22:03 2004-09-20 Mike Lorrey wrote: >And what qualitative difference is there between a breathless cult >follower and an effective PR Flak? The cult followers' homepage has a starfield as a background picture. ;) Erik From zero.powers at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 05:45:45 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:45:45 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921053318.90103.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000001c49f85$cbc7eb40$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <20040921053318.90103.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7a3217050409202245766b9166@mail.gmail.com> Hindsight is always 20/20 (no pun intended). It could take years to follow up every possible scoop to the Nth detail. If you did that the story would be old news before you ever ran it. Every journalistic decision involves a balancing act of doing enough verification to satisfy due diligence while at the same time beating the competition to press. Like it or not, that's the nature of the business. Sure Rather & co. should have spent more than 60 minutes (OK slight pun intended) checking out the authenticity of the memos. But no matter how much time they spent checking it out, if they later turned out to be bogus people would criticize them for not being thorough enough. Just my $.02. Zero On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:33:18 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Spike wrote: > > OK my friends, I partially disqualify my own > > conclusions > > because I have been deeply suspicious of Dan Rather > > and > > 60 Minutes for a long time. For those of you who > > consider > > yourselves neutral or nearly so, what is your take? > > Forget > > for the moment that one candidate or another may or > > may > > not have been helped or harmed; that is almost > > beside the > > point. This question is about mainstream news > > media. From scerir at libero.it Tue Sep 21 07:05:54 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:05:54 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more on Afshar Experiment, as of 7 weeks ago References: <20040920201929.71627.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <035c01c49fa9$707483b0$0fb21b97@administxl09yj> > I would have to say that the use of inference is the problem, the > drawing conclusion from an absence. This is faulty, like saying, "Well, > I just heard thunder, but I wasn't struck on this side of my house, it > must have hit my front yard..." > Mike Lorrey Yes. But this sometimes can be allowed, i.e. if "states" are not "physical" but "epistemological" entities, or functionals. Are "states" just descriptions of all available knowledge about a physical system? Notice that this "knowledge" also dependends on the observer's choice of apparata, and is also dependent on the choice of what, in the *future*, the same observer *might* wish to measure (i.e. in case of delayed choice measurement of the particle-like nature, or of the wave-like nature, of one entangled particle, while the particle-like nature, or the wave-like nature, of the other entangled particle, is already detected). So even "negative" outcomes can change the system (collapse the superposition of states) at least if your interpretation of "state" is epistemological, and not ontological. See the Renninger's experiment http://www.npl.washington.edu/npl/int_rep/tiqm/TI_40.html#4.1 From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 07:50:13 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:20:13 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence Message-ID: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> 01121223122323341223233423343445 What comes next? Why? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From alito at organicrobot.com Tue Sep 21 08:14:50 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:14:50 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1095754490.14620.59.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 17:20 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > 01121223122323341223233423343445 > What comes next? Why? > (spoiler page) 1 (number of 1s in successive numbers in binary representation) but are there other "simple" extensions? what would a solomonoff inductor say? From samantha at objectent.com Tue Sep 21 08:15:01 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:15:01 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920194408.05a87c48@unreasonable.com> References: <20040918115404.88544.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040920194408.05a87c48@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <55BB1242-0BA6-11D9-82F1-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Wow! So how is this not evidence that our legal code is utterly fubar? What is the standard for determining "conspiracy"? Is it based on some amount of planning or involvement of other people in some particular ways or what? Are only spontaneous unplanned actions capable of being misdemeanors? Does much else for even the least infraction justify prison and stripping away many rights for the rest of one's life? What kind of country do we live in? And what can we do about it? - s On Sep 20, 2004, at 4:53 PM, David Lubkin wrote: > Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> Whether or not this should be the case is another >> story. But it's been well established that intent >> alone is insufficient. (Granted, there have been >> prosecutions based on the most minimal of deeds. If >> you could find some deed to charge him on, you might >> have a case. What you have cited here is not actually >> illegal behavior. > > Conspiracy is a felony, whether the crime is committed or not. > Curiously, conspiracy to commit a misdemeanor is a felony. > > Also, if I fire a gun I think is loaded but isn't, or shoot a corpse I > thought was still alive, I can be found guilty of attempted murder > (assuming the other elements are present). > > > -- David Lubkin. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From samantha at objectent.com Tue Sep 21 08:18:25 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:18:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920195350.090ae7e0@unreasonable.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040920195350.090ae7e0@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: On Sep 20, 2004, at 5:15 PM, David Lubkin wrote: > Spike wrote: > >> Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you >> will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. > > I've been rather disappointed with Badnarik, even by comparison with > some of the dubious characters the LP has nominated in other years. > The last presidential nominee of any party that I genuinely would want > to have had in office was Goldwater, although I appreciate Ron Paul > and was very impressed by Nancy Lord. Care to say why you are disappointed and what you consider missing? > >> Surely this is all part of a vast right-wing conspiracy. Perhaps the >> forged documents were planted by some Limbaughian scoundrel, poison >> bait which DNCBS, the NY Times and the Boston Globe all devoured with >> glee, from which they are still wretching violently. > > If we're looking for conspiratorial explanations, I'm more inclined to > suspect Hillary's cronies. They need Kerry to lose without leaving > their fingerprints on the deed, in order to clear the way for a 2008 > run. Alas, the Democratic Party will be declared a terrorist organization by then. - samantha From samantha at objectent.com Tue Sep 21 08:25:18 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:25:18 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921053318.90103.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040921053318.90103.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 20, 2004, at 10:33 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Spike wrote: >> OK my friends, I partially disqualify my own >> conclusions >> because I have been deeply suspicious of Dan Rather >> and >> 60 Minutes for a long time. For those of you who >> consider >> yourselves neutral or nearly so, what is your take? >> Forget >> for the moment that one candidate or another may or >> may >> not have been helped or harmed; that is almost >> beside the >> point. This question is about mainstream news >> media. > > It seems to me that the Bush administration has played games for a long time about the actual facts of Bush's "alternate service". How many times now have they claimed that all the facts were public only to produce more documents and "facts" later? I've lost count. How many stories do all of us read every day in the US and world press that are not vetted and cannot even have their sources effectively examined? So why exactly is one story being harped on? Can't say for sure but the likely effect is that negative stories toward Bush and gang will be much more difficult to get into print than negative stories about Kerry and company now. That is interesting. - s From scerir at libero.it Tue Sep 21 08:37:12 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:37:12 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] more on Afshar Experiment, as of 7 weeks ago References: <20040920201929.71627.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <035c01c49fa9$707483b0$0fb21b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <004d01c49fb6$3177de20$07b01b97@administxl09yj> [Basil Hiley, that Hiley of the Bohm-Hiley wholeness, writes] Thanks for the copy of the New Scientist's article about Afshar's experiment. Unfortunately it is no challenge to Bohr's position. How on earth does he know the photons arriving at detector 1 come from pinhole 1 when both pinholes are open? You cannot use ray optics in the region where the light from the two pinholes overlap so you cannot draw any such conclusion. [[Notice, Hiley says that you cannot use ray optics *in the region where* there is photon (self) interference. Notice also that Heisenberg, Zeilinger and others, performed 'gedanken' and 'real' experiments assuming that we can use ray optics, and that interposing a lens behind the two slits, on the image plane behind that lens, we get both the image of each slit and the photons coming from that specific slit.]] Lets look at the claim a little more closely. Afshar is quoted as saying "According to my experiment one of the key assumptions about quantum theory is wrong." Ok what assumption? The article doesn't say. It mutters something about Bohr and goes on to say "When faced with a classical apparatus these mysterious quantum entities will either show a particle-like or a wave-like face." Where has this sloppy thinking come from? Bohr never said any such thing. What Bohr actually said was 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action, we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained in the description of atomic phenomena. In particular, any attempt at an ordering in space-time leads to a break in the causal chain, since such an attempt is bound up with an essential exchange of momentum and energy between the individuals and the measuring rods and clocks used for observation; and just this exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, any conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the strict conservation of energy and momentum, with regard to the dynamical behaviour of the individual units obviously necessitates a complete renunciation of following their course in space and time'. [Bohr, Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature, pp. 97-8, Cambridge University Press, 1934] Notice the phrase 'following their course in space and time'. This is not a discussion about particles 'behaving only like waves or only like particles'. It is about 'following' or 'looking at' the process using some suitable instrument. So if you 'look at' each photon as it passes through one pinhole you won't get an interference pattern. Even the Bohm approach agrees with that. OK after that little rebuff we finally come to Afshar's real claim. It is that his experiment is "recording the rate at which photons are coming through each pinhole". If this statement was correct then it would imply that "there should be no interference pattern" where the beams overlap. "But there is, Afshar says". Sure there is an interference effect simply because Afshar's experiments do not 'follow' anything and they do not 'look at' each photon as it passes through a pinhole. He is simply collecting and counting the distribution of photon arrivals at his two detectors. Then he makes inferences about what could possibly be going on and concludes, incorrectly, that a photon detected in the 'photon detector for pinhole 1' came from pinhole 1. However that conclusion is based on the assumption that the rays emanating from pinhole 1 arrive at the 'photon detector for pinhole 1'. But the ray picture breaks down as soon as you enter the region of overlap of the two beams and you cannot conclude that the photon entering pinhole 1 arrives at the 'photon detector for pinhole 1'. You haven't measured which pinhole each photon passed through so you have not contradicted Bohr. Unfortunately Afshar's conclusion, "According to my experiment one of the key assumptions about quantum theory is wrong" is incorrect. His conclusion is wrong simply because he doesn't understand the physical optics that lies behind the experiment he is doing. From samantha at objectent.com Tue Sep 21 08:35:51 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:35:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040917220511.80619.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040917220511.80619.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E989D48-0BA9-11D9-82F1-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 17, 2004, at 3:05 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Brent Neal wrote: > >> >> Of course, the right answer is to get the government out of the >> "marriage" business. Treat it all with a standard contract between >> two (or more) consenting adults. Leave the the 'marriage' part to the >> churches. Its not even a state's right issue: the separation of >> church and state is one of those things that is absolutely inviolable >> (c.f. Roy Moore). The government has no authority to provide legal >> status to a religious institution, period. > > This is exactly correct. The problem is that the big brass rings that > the gay couples complain about are primarily in the area of govenment > entitlements. If they were not so insistent on getting those bennies, > I'd believe the argument a bit better. If the gay community supported > your position, they'd publicly say they don't care about inheritable > social security benefits. > What we are insistent about is equal rights under the law and long overdue simple freedom to live our lives and love who we love. We are insistent about our relationships and families enjoying the same protections and respect as anyone else's. It is a question of equality, not of seeking to get in line for government bennies (that certainly should not have been the government's to give). Why would it be consistent with working for full equality to say that we don't care about our relationships having the same weight in all respects, including SS benefits, as anyone else's? > There is a difference between legal marriage and lawful marriage. What > the gay community wants is legal marriage. They can already lawfully > marry. > > What a joke that is. -s From samantha at objectent.com Tue Sep 21 08:39:49 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:39:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 17, 2004, at 6:38 PM, Brent Neal wrote: > (9/16/04 19:40) Spike wrote: > >> Nor do I. The difference is one is tax-and-spend, >> the other is cut-taxes-and-spend-anyway. What we >> desperately need is cut-taxes-and-cut-spending. >> Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you >> will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. > > > Spike, > > I voted for Harry Browne twice. I could have kicked myself for the > last time, since it indirectly enabled the Shrub to be elected. Until > the Libertarians get their shit together, stop jousting windmills, and > start thinking practicality, they have no chance, IMO. I'll keep > choosing the best of the Dems and the Reps until they do. > Isn't it very counter-productive to continue to vote for what you don't want while waiting for someone else to get it together enough to impress you enough that you will actually vote for what you do want? It seems to make more sense to go out and help the Libertarians "get their shit together" or form another party that does have it together so what you really believe is the way things should be has a chance. Voting for the less evil of two parties you abhor guarantees evil will continue to reign and run the country the rest of the way into the ground. -s From samantha at objectent.com Tue Sep 21 08:48:26 2004 From: samantha at objectent.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 01:48:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040918115404.88544.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040918115404.88544.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00E79B9C-0BAB-11D9-82F1-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> On Sep 18, 2004, at 4:54 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Trend Ologist wrote: > >> I was being sarcastic in the first post, I'm a grumpy >> middle-aged man. >> Anyway, Kerry fought a WAR, shouldn't nationalistic >> rightwingers like him? Real men don't eat quiche, they >> hide a plastic explosive inside it. > > Nope. Kerry went over there with the stated intent of being "the next > JFK", as he bragged to many fellow officers. He intentionally and > unncessarily risked his men in order to build a military resume. Uh huh. And the fact he was with these men and a risky decision would end this foolishness and his chances in the future of being "the next JFK" never entered his mind, right? > He > then came back, threw away his medals (actually they were someone > else's medals, but he was still happy to dishonor them), testified > before congress that he and everyone else there had committed war > crimes, Under some definitions it was arguably a criminal war. > and was a participant in a VVAW meeting (as a member of the > executive committee) plebiscite in late 1971 to vote on a plan to > assassinate pro-war US Senators. WHAT? You better have a LOT to back up such an outrageous claim. -s From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:04:53 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:04:53 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <1095754490.14620.59.camel@alito.homeip.net> References: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> <1095754490.14620.59.camel@alito.homeip.net> Message-ID: <470a3c520409210304468f1c72@mail.gmail.com> Or because whenever a new number appears it is always followed by 1 (a consequence of Alajandro's rule: n times 1 is always followed by 1 and n times 0). On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:14:50 +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky wrote: > On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 17:20 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > 01121223122323341223233423343445 > > > What comes next? Why? > > > (spoiler page) > > 1 (number of 1s in successive numbers in binary representation) > but are there other "simple" extensions? what would a solomonoff > inductor say? > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:19:45 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:19:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Internet is a work in progress Message-ID: <470a3c5204092103194f6e94bb@mail.gmail.com> Internet is a work in progress Researchers try to find ways to increase speed, fight security problems By Anick Jesdanun / Associated Press http://www.detnews.com/2004/technology/0409/19/a11-277552.htm NEW YORK - Thirty-five years after computer scientists at University of California, Los Angeles linked two bulky computers using a 15-foot gray cable, testing a new way for exchanging data over networks, what would ultimately become the Internet remains a work in progress. University researchers are experimenting with ways to increase its capacity and speed. Programmers are trying to imbue Web pages with intelligence. And work is under way to re-engineer the network to reduce spam and security troubles. All the while threats loom: Critics warn that commercial, legal and political pressures could hinder the types of innovations that made the Internet what it is today. Stephen Crocker and Vinton Cerf were among the graduate students who joined UCLA professor Len Kleinrock in an engineering lab Sept. 2, 1969, as bits of meaningless test data flowed silently between the two computers. By January, three other "nodes" joined the fledgling network. Then came e-mail a few years later, a core communications protocol called TCP/IP in the late '70s, the domain name system in the '80s and the World Wide Web - the second most popular application behind e-mail - in 1990. The Internet expanded beyond its initial military and educational domain into businesses and homes around the world. Today, Crocker continues work on the Internet, designing better tools for collaboration. And as security chairman for the Internet's key oversight body, he is trying to defend the core addressing system from outside threats, including an attempt last year by a private search engine to grab Web surfers who mistype addresses. He acknowledges the Internet he helped build is far from finished, and changes are in store to meet growing demands for multimedia. Network providers make only "best efforts" at delivering data packets, and Crocker said better guarantees are needed to prevent the skips and stutters common with video. Cerf, now at MCI Inc., said he wished he could have designed the Internet with security built in. Microsoft Corp., Yahoo Inc. and America Online Inc., among others, are trying to retrofit the network so e-mail senders can be authenticated - a way to cut down on junk messages sent using spoofed addresses. Among Cerf's other projects: a next-generation numbering system called IPv6 to accommodate the ever-growing armies of Internet-ready wireless devices, game consoles, even dog collars. Working with NASA, Cerf is trying to extend the network into outer space to better communicate with spacecraft. But many features being developed today wouldn't have been possible at birth given the slower computing speeds and narrower Internet pipes, or bandwidth, Cerf said. "With the tools we had then, we did as much as we could reasonably have done," he said. While engineers tinker with the Internet's core framework, some university researchers looking for more speed are developing separate systems that parallel the Internet. That way, data-intensive applications like video conferencing, brain imaging and global climate research won't have to compete with e-mail and e-commerce. Think information highway with an express lane. Some applications are so data-intensive, they are "simply impractical to do on the current Internet," said Tracy Futhey, chairwoman of the National LambdaRail. The project offers for its members dedicated high-speed lines so data can "get from point A to point B and not have to contend with the other traffic." LambdaRail recently completed its first optical connection from San Diego to Seattle to Pittsburgh to Jacksonville, Fla. Work on additional links is planned for next year. Undersea explorer Robert Ballard has used another network, Internet2, to host live, interactive presentations with students and aquarium visitors from the wreck of the Titanic, which he found in 1985. The Internet's bandwidth can carry only "lousy" video and "can't compete with looking out the window," Ballard said. But with Internet2, "high-definition zoom cameras can show them the eyelids." Internet2, with speeds 100 times the typical broadband service at home, is limited to selected universities, companies and institutions, but researchers expect any breakthroughs to ultimately migrate to the main Internet. While Internet2 and LambdaRail seek to move data faster and faster, researchers with the World Wide Web Consortium are trying to make information smarter and smarter. Semantic Web is a next-generation Web designed to make more kinds of data easier for computers to locate and process. Consider the separate teams of scientists who study genes, proteins and chemical pathways. With the Semantic Web, tags are added to information in databases describing gene and protein sequences. One group may use one scheme and another team something else; the Semantic Web could help link the two. Ultimately, software could be written to process the data and make inferences that previously required human intervention. With the same principles, searching to buy an automobile in Massachusetts will also incorporate listings for cars in Boston. Change doesn't come easily, however. For instance, the IPv6 numbering system was deemed an Internet standard about five years ago, but the vast majority of software and hardware today runs on the older IPv4, which is running out of room. And the Internet faces general resistance from old-world forces that want to preserve their ways of doing things: Companies that value profit over greater good. Copyright holders who want to protect their music and movies. Governments that seek to censor information or spy on its citizens. From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 10:23:19 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:23:19 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] World's most powerful MRI for decoding the human brain Message-ID: <470a3c5204092103232a33d6e6@mail.gmail.com> The University of Illinois at Chicago unveiled today the world's most powerful magnetic resonance imaging machine for human studies, capable of imaging not just the anatomy but metabolism within the brain. http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-09/uoia-uuw091704.php This advanced technology ushers in a new age of metabolic imaging that will help researchers understand the workings of the human brain, detect diseases before their clinical signs appear, develop targeted drug therapies for illnesses like stroke and provide a better understanding of learning disabilities. Central to the technology is a 9.4-tesla magnet, larger than any other human-sized magnet, built by GE Healthcare, a unit of General Electric Company. A tesla is a large measuring unit of magnetic strength. "This technological leap forward is as revolutionary to the medical community as the transition from radio to television was for society," said Dr. Keith Thulborn, director of the UIC Center for Magnetic Resonance Research, at the facility's grand opening today. "GE's magnet is introducing a whole new dimension to imaging by enabling researchers to better understand how the human brain thinks, learns, fights disease and responds to experimental therapies." "UIC's new Center for Magnetic Resonance Research featuring GE's 9.4-tesla magnet will be a premier international center for human brain research," Thulborn said. "What we learn here in Chicago will be shared with researchers and physicians around the world." A New Dimension in Human Brain Imaging An MRI machine images internal structures of the body using magnetism, radio waves and a computer. A circular magnet surrounds the patient and creates a strong magnetic field that aligns atoms in the body. A pulse of radio waves then rearranges them, creating a signal that is passed to a computer, producing an image. The current industry standard for MRI systems is 1.5 tesla, which limits researchers to imaging water molecules. As a result, only anatomical changes can be detected and monitored. By contrast, the 9.4-tesla magnet, which is three times more powerful than current state-of-the-art clinical MRI magnets and more than 100,000 times stronger than the earth's magnetic field, will enable UIC researchers to detect signals from sodium, phosphorus, carbon, nitrogen, and oxygen -- the metabolic building blocks of brain function and human thought. "Brain scanning is pushed to the limit with the current technology -- we need the sensitivity of the 9.4-tesla magnet to go beyond anatomic imaging to metabolic imaging," Thulborn said. "Metabolism provides the energy that drives brain function and therefore offers the key to uncovering the mysteries of the mind." Thulborn worked with GE researchers to develop the 9.4-tesla MRI system. "We developed this 9.4-tesla magnet in conjunction with Dr. Thulborn to provide the research community an in-depth look into how metabolism drives brain function and to provide answers to some of the brain's greatest mysteries," said Dennis Cooke, vice president of GE Healthcare's Global MR Business. "This is a one-of-a-kind tool in the hands of UIC's capable researchers, who aim to identify, develop and apply innovative applications for diagnosing and treating patients." "GE is committed to developing technologies that enable researchers to push the frontiers of medicine and pioneer new treatments." Applying 9.4-Tesla Research to Human Health and Learning Specifically, Thulborn will use the 9.4-tesla MRI scanner to help identify and monitor many common conditions and diseases of the brain -- including stroke, Alzheimer's, autism and mental illness. "The work we're doing mapping human thoughts brings so much promise to the future of medical research, specifically to our ability to really understand more about brain diseases," said Thulborn. "The medical and social implications of this technology include more personalized healthcare and earlier intervention to prevent disease." In addition, Thulborn plans to apply the 9.4-tesla system to observing and potentially treating cognitive learning disorders, like attention deficit disorder. "If we can understand how children learn, we can tailor educational programs to better teach them, regardless of whether they have learning difficulties. By understanding the different ways that the brain learns, more efficient and effective learning programs can be produced for such skills as reading, music and mathematics," said Thulborn. From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Tue Sep 21 10:25:33 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:25:33 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <470a3c520409210304468f1c72@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> <1095754490.14620.59.camel@alito.homeip.net> <470a3c520409210304468f1c72@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <91C367B2-0BB8-11D9-A000-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Isn't the next number: 011212231223233412232334233434451223233423343445 ? But if that's the case isn't there also an error in the initial sequence, and so the correct number should be more like: 010112011212230112122312234334? best, patrick On 21 Sep 2004, at 12:04, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Or because whenever a new number appears it is always followed by 1 (a > consequence of Alajandro's rule: n times 1 is always followed by 1 and > n times 0). > > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 18:14:50 +1000, Alejandro Dubrovsky > wrote: >> On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 17:20 +0930, Emlyn wrote: >>> 01121223122323341223233423343445 >> >>> What comes next? Why? >>> >> (spoiler page) >> >> 1 (number of 1s in successive numbers in binary representation) >> but are there other "simple" extensions? what would a solomonoff >> inductor say? >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:26:05 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:26:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Backdoor Draft? In-Reply-To: <001801c49f73$4f988eb0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20040921112605.40134.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > Bush doesn't have the political courage to call for a regular draft > before > the Nov. 2 elections, so he's taking advantage of our reservists and > National Guardsmen until then. Here's an example, as reported by Dick > Foster > in the Rocky Mountain News last Thursday: > "Soldiers from a Fort Carson combat unit say they have been issued an > ultimatum -- re-enlist for three more years or be transferred to > other units expected to deploy to Iraq.": Ever hear of the term: "for the duration"??? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:39:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c49f85$cbc7eb40$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040921113938.85703.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > > If we're looking for conspiratorial explanations, I'm more > > inclined to suspect Hillary's cronies. They need Kerry to lose > without > > > leaving their fingerprints on the deed, in order to clear the way > for a 2008 run. > > > > > > - David Lubkin. > > {8^D Well thats the first Ive heard of THAT notion. Do let > me ponder it further before commenting. That is possible. We know that the former guard officer, Burkett, who is the likely forger was the campaign manager for the Houston based chair of the County Democratic Party (who was his lawyer in all this) and that they are closely associated with Dan Rather's daughter, who is another Party apparatchik in the Houston-based Party. We know that they all have been openly and aggressively supporting Kerry since the primary, but I don't know what their true loyalties within the party are. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:41:32 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040921114132.42559.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Kerry would win in a landslide. > > http://www.iht.com/articles/537873.html > > (not because he is that popular, but because Bush is that unpopular) If foreigners could vote in the US, we'd have lost the Cold War, we'd be a communist nation, and the USSR would be the sole superpower in the world. That is not a good reflection of the wisdom of the rest of the world. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:43:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921053318.90103.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040921114330.86178.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > I'll admit I haven't heard all the evidence, but from > what I have heard, there was at least some honest > error. No. CBS claims it was "misled", however the facts show that they ignored 3 out of 4 of its document experts, who refused to authenticate the documents. Were they misled by the 4th guy? Sure, but they wilfully ignored the rest who said what Dan Rather didn't want to hear. That is not honest error. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:50:55 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040921115055.72307.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > 01121223122323341223233423343445 > > What comes next? Why? 2334344534454556 Because that is the pattern of the first two sets of 16 digits each. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 11:59:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <00E79B9C-0BAB-11D9-82F1-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040921115916.63046.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > and was a participant in a VVAW meeting (as a member of the > > executive committee) plebiscite in late 1971 to vote on a plan to > > assassinate pro-war US Senators. > > > WHAT? You better have a LOT to back up such an outrageous claim. This is a well documented fact. He participated in the anti-war movement as a leader of the VVAW, as a member of it's executive committee, up into late 1972, when his congressional campaign in Lowell, MA (where I was born, btw) promoted his leadership of the VVAW and his stance against the war. He attempts in his biography to claim that he quit the VVAW a week prior to the November 1971 meeting of the VVAW with a resignation letter, but such a letter has never been found in the VVAW archives, nor can any other member recall him quitting. He did have a quite heated exchange with another exec committee member at that meeting, according to other participants, the fellow who was an Am. Communist Party operator and who went to Paris with Kerry to treat with the North Vietnamese in violation of the Neutrality Act, so it is well documented that he did attend the meeting and did participate in the vote on assassinating US Senators. I wonder what he'd say today, given his current pro-war stance as a US Senator, about assassinating such Senators today. One more flip-flop to go with all the rest, I suppose... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Tue Sep 21 12:10:42 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:10:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <20040921115055.72307.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040921115055.72307.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42B74717-0BC7-11D9-A000-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 21 Sep 2004, at 13:50, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Emlyn wrote: > >> 01121223122323341223233423343445 >> >> What comes next? Why? > > 2334344534454556 > > Because that is the pattern of the first two sets of 16 digits each. 01121223122323341223233423343445: 01 12 12 23 1223 2334 12232334 23343445 next: 1223233423343445 2334344534454556 or: 0112122312232334122323342334344512232334233434452334344534454556 best, patrick From maxm at mail.tele.dk Tue Sep 21 12:16:25 2004 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:16:25 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41501B99.3020302@mail.tele.dk> Emlyn wrote: >01121223122323341223233423343445 > >What comes next? Why? > > 01121223122323341223233423343446 Isn't that obvious? -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 12:31:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 05:31:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (PvT) In a way, I would welcome this In-Reply-To: <414F6C13.BB050874@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20040921123136.77628.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > Since it would more or less be the end of this organization. > > http://www.iranian.ws/iran_news/publish/article_3795.shtml > > Iran Mullah President Considered for UN > Sec-Gen Post > Persian Journal Oh, I don't think so. In fact, it is a very brilliant idea. This would put persian sense of honor at stake both in the amount of iranian interference in Iraq and Iran's current intransigence over its nuclear program. THis would depend upon whether Khatami is willing to play that role or will flip-flop into a Khomenei to the world. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Sep 21 13:22:31 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:22:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040921114330.86178.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005901c49fde$0c9fc590$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Mike Lorrey" > No. CBS claims it was "misled", however the facts show that they > ignored 3 out of 4 of its document experts, who refused to authenticate > the documents. Were they misled by the 4th guy? Sure, but they wilfully > ignored the rest who said what Dan Rather didn't want to hear. That is > not honest error. Phew! But at least no one got *killed*, eh ...? Olga From sjvans at ameritech.net Tue Sep 21 13:45:58 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:45:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Backdoor Draft? In-Reply-To: <20040921112605.40134.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040921112605.40134.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1095774358.1044.3.camel@Renfield> She is not talking about the stop lose orders, which some have accused of being "back door drafts". These are normal, official, and occasionally used even in peace time for critical skills. This fits the phrase "for the duration" much better. What it seems to be here are re-up "counselors" getting an attack of the stupids, probably combined with normal military rumor mongering. On Tue, 2004-09-21 at 06:26, Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > Bush doesn't have the political courage to call for a regular draft > > before > > the Nov. 2 elections, so he's taking advantage of our reservists and > > National Guardsmen until then. Here's an example, as reported by Dick > > Foster > > in the Rocky Mountain News last Thursday: > > "Soldiers from a Fort Carson combat unit say they have been issued an > > ultimatum -- re-enlist for three more years or be transferred to > > other units expected to deploy to Iraq.": > > Ever hear of the term: "for the duration"??? > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Sep 21 13:43:18 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:43:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Space Development Newsletter: October 2004 Message-ID: <205930-220049221134318949@M2W082.mail2web.com> I'm forwarding this: __________________ SpaceDev Begins Work on ?Dream Chaser? Space Vehicle Space Act MOU Signed with NASA Ames Research Center SpaceDev has begun designing a reuseable, piloted, sub-orbital space ship that could be scaled up to safely and economically transport passengers to and from low earth orbit, including the International Space Station.?? The name of the vehicle is the ?SpaceDev Dream Chaser.? SpaceDev?s founding chairman and CEO, Jim Benson, recently signed a Space Act Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with NASA Ames Research Center director, Dr. Scott Hubbard. This non-binding MOU confirms the intention of the two parties to explore novel, hybrid propulsion based hypersonic test beds for routine human space access.? The parties will explore collaborative partnerships to investigate the potential of using SpaceDev?s proven hybrid propulsion and other technologies, and a low cost, private space program development approach, to establish and design new piloted small launch vehicles and flight test platforms to enable near-term, low-cost routine space access for NASA and the United States. One possibility for collaboration is the SpaceDev Dream Chaser? project, which is currently being discussed with NASA Ames. Unlike the more complex SpaceShipOne, for which SpaceDev provides critical proprietary hybrid rocket motor propulsion technologies, the SpaceDev Dream Chaser? would be piloted and take-off vertically, like most launch vehicles, and is designed to glide back for a normal horizontal runway landing. The sub-orbital SpaceDev Dream Chaser is derived from an existing X-Plane concept, will have an altitude goal of approximately 160 km (about 100 miles) and will be powered by a single, high performance hybrid rocket motor, under parallel development by SpaceDev for the SpaceDev Streaker, a family of small, expendable launch vehicles, designed to affordably deliver small satellites to low earth orbit.? The SpaceDev Dream Chaser will use motor technology being developed for the SpaceDev Streaker booster stage, the most powerful motor in the Streaker family.? The SpaceDev Dream Chaser motor will produce approximately 100,000 pounds of thrust, about six times the thrust of the SpaceShipOne motor, but less than one-half that of the 250,000 pound thrust hybrid rocket motors developed several years ago by the American Rocket Company (AMROC). SpaceDev Delivers Rocket Motors for X-Prize Attempt SpaceDev, after recently completing work on a full duration, maximum energy, ground test firing of a more powerful version of the rocket motors destined for SpaceShipOne, SpaceDev has shipped the rocket motors that will be used for the upcoming historic attempt by SpaceShipOne to win the $10 million Ansari X Prize.? The hybrid rocket motors burn rubber and laughing gas (HTPB and N2O). At its facility in Poway, CA, near San Diego, SpaceDev finished casting the HTPB fuel into three discardable motor cases, assembled and integrated SpaceDev?s proprietary technology into the motors, and has shipped them to Mojave, CA in preparation for the upcoming flights. A less powerful version of this motor powered SpaceShipOne to fly well beyond 50 miles altitude, and created the world?s first private sector astronaut on June 21, 2004. Paul Allen?s SpaceShipOne uses proprietary propulsion technology developed by SpaceDev.? SpaceDev is working on various propulsion projects, including SpaceShipOne, the SpaceDev Streaker? family of small expendable unmanned launch vehicles for small satellites, SpaceDev?s proposed reusable piloted space ship, and a scalable space tug, all being worked on under various private sector and government contracts.? ?This is like the microcomputer revolution,? said Benson ?with SpaceDev helping to revolutionize the somewhat technologically moribund $100 billion space industry with high performance, low-cost microsatellites, and with hybrid-based propulsion systems for delivering cargo and people to space, safely and affordably.? Under a separate government contract, SpaceDev is developing the SpaceDev Streaker? -- a family of small, responsive and affordable launch vehicles, using non-exploding hybrid rocket motor technology developed by SpaceDev with higher performance than the ones developed for SpaceShipOne or other traditional hybrid rocket motors.? The single-stage SpaceDev Streaker? is planned as a target or sounding rocket, and is expected to be priced below existing competition.? The three-stage version is being designed to launch a microsat, similar to SpaceDev?s revolutionary CHIPSat, from anywhere in the world, on 24-hour notice, from a C-17A cargo plane. The four-stage mobile ground launched version of the SpaceDev Streaker? is being developed to put 1,000 pounds of payload into low earth orbit, and is expected to be priced below currently planned or existing domestic small launch vehicles.? SpaceDev, using government projects, internal funding, and capital from the Laurus Master Funds of New York, is developing what SpaceDev believes is a practical concept for safe, affordable, fully integrated manned space flight systems for both sub-orbital and orbital applications.? With the potential that NASA will follow the Aldridge Commission recommendations to better utilize private sector companies, there may be new contract and funding opportunities for concepts and innovative space technology being developed by SpaceDev.? SpaceDev Announces Vice President of Engineering SpaceDev announced that Frank Macklin has been promoted to Vice President of Engineering.? Prior to this appointment, Mr. Macklin was Chief Engineer for hybrid rocket propulsion systems.? ?Frank?s prior Air Force experience with missiles, and his more recent experience with the General Dynamics Atlas II launch vehicle and its Centaur upper stage, made him the right person to head up hybrid propulsion projects here at SpaceDev,? said Jim Benson, founding chairman and chief executive of SpaceDev.? ?Where possible, we like to promote from within, and Frank has certainly earned this position through all the successful space technology development projects he has been involved in at SpaceDev.? This message was intended for: natasha at natasha.cc You were added to the database September 16, 2002. For more information please follow the URL below: http://echo.bluehornet.com/subscribe/source.htm?email=natasha at natasha.cc&cid =b78fc118167132dfac3d2e954cf051 Follow the URL below to update your preferences or unsubscribe: http://echo.bluehornet.com/phase2/survey1/survey.htm?CID=uaknzx&action=updat e&eemail=natasha at natasha.cc ----Powered by BlueHornet---- http://www.bluehornet.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 13:50:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 06:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Backdoor Draft? In-Reply-To: <1095774358.1044.3.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <20040921135035.19807.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Stephen J. Van Sickle" wrote: > > She is not talking about the stop lose orders, which some have > accused of being "back door drafts". These are normal, official, and > occasionally used even in peace time for critical skills. This fits > the phrase "for the duration" much better. > > What it seems to be here are re-up "counselors" getting an attack of > the stupids, probably combined with normal military rumor mongering. One thing to consider is that most of these guard members are just a few years out of their previous active duty term, they joined the guard after discharge from active duty service for the extra pay. What this means is that your original active duty term of service may have been 4 years active duty, but it also includes 6 years of inactive reserve service, for which they have every right to call you back up for at any time. If you happen to be in the guard at that time, or even if you aren't, it isn't "not fair" because you signed a contract years prior. For active duty units, unit cohesion is a major contributor to readiness and morale. Keeping experienced guys in the same unit is of paramount importance to long term capability of the unit and minimizing training costs as well as battlefield casualties. Neither of these things is a backdoor draft, because neither activity is contrary to the contracts that the enlistee originally signed. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From amara at amara.com Tue Sep 21 14:57:18 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:57:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word Message-ID: 'We need a better word than "Singularity"' Brad Templeton's blog, September 20 http://ideas.4brad.com/ Amara -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "My, this game does teach new words!" --Hobbes From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 14:41:51 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:41:51 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <470a3c52040921074170d526d8@mail.gmail.com> I also don't like "Singularity" too much. Even if something happens that would look like a singularity from our point of view, I am fairly sure that it will look like more of the same to those who experience it: they will have grown used to very rapid change. G. On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:57:18 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > 'We need a better word than "Singularity"' > Brad Templeton's blog, September 20 > > http://ideas.4brad.com/ > > Amara > -- > > ******************************************************************** > Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com > Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt > Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ > ******************************************************************** > "My, this game does teach new words!" --Hobbes > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megao at sasktel.net Tue Sep 21 13:59:55 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:59:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word References: <470a3c52040921074170d526d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <415033DB.E8DE39EE@sasktel.net> "Extropian Genesis" Ghia or perhaps a completely new synthetic word applicable to any and all of the observers and participants Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I also don't like "Singularity" too much. Even if something happens > that would look like a singularity from our point of view, I am fairly > sure that it will look like more of the same to those who experience > it: they will have grown used to very rapid change. > G. > > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:57:18 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > 'We need a better word than "Singularity"' > > Brad Templeton's blog, September 20 > > > > http://ideas.4brad.com/ > > > > Amara > > -- > > > > ******************************************************************** > > Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com > > Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt > > Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > > "My, this game does teach new words!" --Hobbes > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Sep 21 16:32:42 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:32:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] ANN: Wiki Media Fundraising Drive (WikiPedia) Message-ID: <223050-220049221163242859@M2W062.mail2web.com> "Wiki Media creator of the WikiPedia is having a fundraising drive to help with operation costs and technology improvements." http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 21 17:05:15 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040921170515.83260.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > 01121223122323341223233423343445 > > What comes next? Why? This being a count of the number of 1s in the binary representation of each position number, the next set of numbers will (in binary) be the same numbers with a 1 in front, so just add 1 to each position: 12232334233434452334344534454556 Or, more graphically: 01121223122323341223233423343445 01010101010101010101010101010101 00110011001100110011001100110011 00001111000011110000111100001111 00000000111111110000000011111111 00000000000000001111111111111111 00000000000000000000000000000000 12232334233434452334344534454556 01010101010101010101010101010101 00110011001100110011001100110011 00001111000011110000111100001111 00000000111111110000000011111111 00000000000000001111111111111111 11111111111111111111111111111111 From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 21 16:47:54 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:47:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: <00E79B9C-0BAB-11D9-82F1-000A95B1AFDE@objectent.com> Message-ID: <20040921164754.54414.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Atrocities are a dime a dozen. (Remember, Kerry is a real man. He's not a wimp like you or I. We can't judge him by our safe, geeky standards ; ) But yeah, Kerry sure picked a cushy way to try to get elected president 35 years later-- being on a swift boat in Southeast Asia. > Nope. Kerry went over there with the stated intent of being "the next > JFK", as he bragged to many fellow officers. He intentionally and > unncessarily risked his men in order to build a military resume. Uh huh. And the fact he was with these men and a risky decision would end this foolishness and his chances in the future of being "the next JFK" never entered his mind, right? > He > then came back, threw away his medals (actually they were someone > else's medals, but he was still happy to dishonor them), testified > before congress that he and everyone else there had committed war > crimes, Under some definitions it was arguably a criminal war. > and was a participant in a VVAW meeting (as a member of the > executive committee) plebiscite in late 1971 to vote on a plan to > assassinate pro-war US Senators. WHAT? You better have a LOT to back up such an outrageous claim. -s _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Sep 21 18:06:26 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:06:26 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (9/21/04 1:39) Samantha Atkins wrote: > >On Sep 17, 2004, at 6:38 PM, Brent Neal wrote: > >> (9/16/04 19:40) Spike wrote: >> >>> Nor do I. The difference is one is tax-and-spend, >>> the other is cut-taxes-and-spend-anyway. What we >>> desperately need is cut-taxes-and-cut-spending. >>> Badnarik is your man, Brent. I hope some day you >>> will join us. And the world will live as 6 billion. >> >> >> Spike, >> >> I voted for Harry Browne twice. I could have kicked myself for the >> last time, since it indirectly enabled the Shrub to be elected. Until >> the Libertarians get their shit together, stop jousting windmills, and >> start thinking practicality, they have no chance, IMO. I'll keep >> choosing the best of the Dems and the Reps until they do. >> > >Isn't it very counter-productive to continue to vote for what you don't >want while waiting for someone else to get it together enough to >impress you enough that you will actually vote for what you do want? >It seems to make more sense to go out and help the Libertarians "get >their shit together" or form another party that does have it together >so what you really believe is the way things should be has a chance. >Voting for the less evil of two parties you abhor guarantees evil will >continue to reign and run the country the rest of the way into the >ground. > The Libertarian Party has proven to me over the past 8 years that not only are they completely incapable of making a reasonable, pragmatic approach to introducing their ideas to greater America, but that anyone such as myself who is interested in educating the 'unwashed masses' is to be treated with suspicion and contempt. I have better ways to spend my time than beating my head against the wall. And by encouraging those people in both parties who share my ideas about government of, by, and for the people, I think I'm accomplishing more than I would as a completely marginalized party of one. The interesting thing about your reply is that you assume that everyone in each party is exactly the same and that each party is a monolithic entity. I encourage you to read some newspapers, research your local candidates, and understand the important fact that both parties are composed of individuals, some of whom may be less objectionable than others. Brent B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 21 18:06:58 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:06:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040921125907.01a11ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:57 PM 9/21/2004 +0100, Amara wrote: >'We need a better word than "Singularity"' >Brad Templeton's blog, September 20 > >http://ideas.4brad.com/ which ends: Well, let's see. We could call it `the Curtain' or `the Wall'. But that doesn't convey the acceleration of change. I don't know, heck, it's so hard. How about... the Spike? Damien Broderick www.thespike.us From megao at sasktel.net Tue Sep 21 17:23:09 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:23:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Paradigm Shift References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040921125907.01a11ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4150637D.D08690AA@sasktel.net> "The Extropian Paradigm Shift" If extropians are going to be deemed dangerous, lets put our persona, name and boots up on that "wanted" poster. Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:57 PM 9/21/2004 +0100, Amara wrote: > > >'We need a better word than "Singularity"' > >Brad Templeton's blog, September 20 > > > >http://ideas.4brad.com/ > > which ends: > > is perhaps the metaphor of the "blind corner" -- a sharp, but not > impossibly sharp turn which you can't see around until you get there. The > ideal metaphor should also convey the acceleration of change which causes > the phenomenon, and this does not. > > > Well, let's see. We could call it `the Curtain' or `the Wall'. But that > doesn't convey the acceleration of change. I don't know, heck, it's so > hard. How about... the Spike? > > Damien Broderick > www.thespike.us > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 21 18:42:36 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:42:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Extropian Paradigm Shift In-Reply-To: <4150637D.D08690AA@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20040921184236.14220.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> It isn't an exclusively extropian idea. Furthermore, one can envision an extropian future - including (certain forms of and paths to) self-improving AI and Santa-grade nanotech - without the Singularity ever actually happening. --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > "The Extropian Paradigm Shift" > > If extropians are going to be deemed dangerous, lets > put our persona, name and > > boots up on that "wanted" poster. > > Damien Broderick wrote: > > > At 03:57 PM 9/21/2004 +0100, Amara wrote: > > > > >'We need a better word than "Singularity"' > > >Brad Templeton's blog, September 20 > > > > > >http://ideas.4brad.com/ > > > > which ends: > > > > important thing to convey > > is perhaps the metaphor of the "blind corner" -- a > sharp, but not > > impossibly sharp turn which you can't see around > until you get there. The > > ideal metaphor should also convey the acceleration > of change which causes > > the phenomenon, and this does not. > > > > > Well, let's see. We could call it `the Curtain' or > `the Wall'. But that > > doesn't convey the acceleration of change. I don't > know, heck, it's so > > hard. How about... the Spike? > > > > Damien Broderick > > www.thespike.us > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 21 18:23:39 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:23:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921180031.37443.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040921182339.45492.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Men are piglets; politicians are pigs. Kerry didn't want to go to Vietnam however when he went there he was determined to make the best of it for himself. Atrocities are wrong, the war was wrong, Kerry was wrong, but most soldiers aren't grown-up Boy Scouts. You libertarians are hopeless utopians. Mike Lorrey wrote:I expect someone who tries to present himself as Audie Murphy to actually BE Audie Murphy, or a close approximation thereof. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 21 19:35:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:35:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921182339.45492.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040921193510.22577.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Shit, you sound like David Brin. If you assault me while saying this, I'll know you are. BTW: Kerry didn't "not" want to go to Vietnam, he enlisted freely, he was not drafted, and I fail to see how showing up with a movie camera, crates of film, and boasting about becoming the next "JFK" in a warzone is 'making the best of it' unless the man really is a beast. BTW: I'm a veteran myself. Been there, shot in the leg and all, in Panama. When it comes to military issues, I am hardly considered very libertarian by many of my peers, so get off the cheap shot while you can. I, as a veteran, am disgusted by the likes of Kerry. I'm not alone. Only people with no military experience are impressed with Kerry's war record, according to polls, i.e. the people with the least basis for an objective informed opinion. --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Men are piglets; politicians are pigs. > Kerry didn't want to go to Vietnam however when he went there he was > determined to make the best of it for himself. Atrocities are wrong, > the war was wrong, Kerry was wrong, but most soldiers aren't grown-up > Boy Scouts. You libertarians are hopeless utopians. > > Mike Lorrey wrote:I expect someone who tries to > present himself as Audie Murphy to > actually BE Audie Murphy, or a close approximation thereof. > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Sep 21 20:08:36 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:08:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moveon.org References: <20040921115916.63046.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41508A44.75BCF407@mindspring.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > > > and was a participant in a VVAW meeting (as a member of the > > > executive committee) plebiscite in late 1971 to vote on a plan to > > > assassinate pro-war US Senators. > > > > > > WHAT? You better have a LOT to back up such an outrageous claim. > > This is a well documented fact. He participated in the anti-war > movement as a leader of the VVAW, as a member of it's executive > committee, up into late 1972, when his congressional campaign in > Lowell, MA (where I was born, btw) promoted his leadership of the VVAW > and his stance against the war. > > He attempts in his biography to claim that he quit the VVAW a week > prior to the November 1971 meeting of the VVAW with a resignation > letter, but such a letter has never been found in the VVAW archives, > nor can any other member recall him quitting. He did have a quite > heated exchange with another exec committee member at that meeting, > according to other participants, the fellow who was an Am. Communist > Party operator and who went to Paris with Kerry to treat with the North > Vietnamese in violation of the Neutrality Act, so it is well documented > that he did attend the meeting and did participate in the vote on > assassinating US Senators. > > I wonder what he'd say today, given his current pro-war stance as a US > Senator, about assassinating such Senators today. One more flip-flop to > go with all the rest, I suppose... > > ===== > Mike Lorrey Excerpt from another mailing list. Terry http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2004/03/19&ID=Ar00101 The November 1971 Kansas City meeting that he long denied attending. He verbally resigned as national media coordinator for VVAW, but not from the group itself, and he continued to publicly represent the group (i.e., acting as media coordinator) until April 1972, according to numerous web sites which cite the following (support is offered from press clippings which all oddly are missing the year): January 11, 1972: Dartmouth College http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/Dartmouth_2.jpg January 25, 1972: "People's State of the Union," Washington, D.C. http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/Dissidents.jpg April 22, 1972: NYC, Bryant Park, "Emergency March for Peace": http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/Bryant_Park_1.jpg There was a summer of 1971 peace rally in Bryant Park: http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=9151 http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/John-Kerry Note that Kerry was not in Bryant Park on April 22, 1971, as that is the date of his Senate Foreign Relations Committee testimony. -- Jim Lippard -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 21 20:15:47 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:15:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921193510.22577.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040921201547.69987.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I'm sorry, Mike, I didn't know you were a veteran, if I had I would have kissed your posterior. Kerry knew he would have been drafted later on so he enlisted to get a good position, big deal. I never denied Kerry is a beast, most men are beasts, especially those that kill. A ruthless brilliant man like Lincoln (who killed Indians before he had Confederates killed) is a great president, while a nice guy such as Jimmy Carter is a failure. Anyway, what are you worried about? Bush has a double-digit lead, the election is his to lose. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu Tue Sep 21 20:42:34 2004 From: Johnius at Genius.UCSD.edu (Johnius) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:42:34 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering Message-ID: <4150923A.3074E21A@Genius.UCSD.edu> Re: >Texas Tech has engineered safe rooms for houses that can withstand a F5 >tornado (it was proved to be so in Moore OK in 1999) and thus should also >be able to withstand a Cat 5. Another strategy in Anti-hurricane engineering is to stop the hurricanes while they're still out in the ocean: http://winwenger.com/hurrican.htm "Nearly all the energy which drives a tropical disturbance comes from warm surface water. Eliminate the warm surface water in the immediate path-or in the breeding grounds-of a hurricane, and you eliminate the hurricane. A low-cost, low-energy way to eliminate the warm surface water, where it would otherwise soon be feeding a hurricane or other tropical disturbance, is to cause the water to 'turn over.' This is done by pumping compressed air down toward gulf or sea bottom and releasing it. The cooler waters come to the top and the hurricane loses its energy over them to become disorganized squalls." From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 21 20:56:31 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:56:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <4150923A.3074E21A@Genius.UCSD.edu> Message-ID: <20040921205631.26074.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Johnius wrote: > http://winwenger.com/hurrican.htm > > "Nearly all the energy which drives a tropical > disturbance comes > from warm surface water. Eliminate the warm surface > water in the > immediate path-or in the breeding grounds-of a > hurricane, and > you eliminate the hurricane. > > A low-cost, low-energy way to eliminate the warm > surface water, > where it would otherwise soon be feeding a > hurricane or other > tropical disturbance, is to cause the water to > 'turn over.' > This is done by pumping compressed air down toward > gulf or sea > bottom and releasing it. The cooler waters come to > the top and > the hurricane loses its energy over them to become > disorganized > squalls." Show Me The Numbers. Most proposals to actively stop hurricanes underestimate the amount of effort/energy needed to do appreciable damage to a hurricane, and thus do not consider whether the costs of that much energy (financial at least, possibly in lives from construction and maintenance accidents) exceeds the costs we currently incur from hurricanes. From sjatkins at gmail.com Tue Sep 21 22:32:26 2004 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:32:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word In-Reply-To: <470a3c52040921074170d526d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52040921074170d526d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e040921153258d8e29b@mail.gmail.com> I very much doubt that a singularity will look like "more of the same". It would not be a singularity if so. There is ample reason to believe we are soon to face a very real singularity that will very much not look like more of the same. Mere rapidity of change is not all that is being called "singularity". But there are limits in even the mere rapidity of change that are beyond what we finite beings can cope with or comprehend. One does not have to like it to see that it is on the way. - s On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:41:51 +0200, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > I also don't like "Singularity" too much. Even if something happens > that would look like a singularity from our point of view, I am fairly > sure that it will look like more of the same to those who experience > it: they will have grown used to very rapid change. > G. > > > > > On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:57:18 +0100, Amara Graps wrote: > > 'We need a better word than "Singularity"' > > Brad Templeton's blog, September 20 > > > > http://ideas.4brad.com/ > > > > Amara > > -- > > > > ******************************************************************** > > Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com > > Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt > > Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ > > ******************************************************************** > > "My, this game does teach new words!" --Hobbes > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From starman2100 at cableone.net Wed Sep 22 00:24:26 2004 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 17:24:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the Message-ID: <1095812666_127222@mail.cableone.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Sep 22 00:58:40 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 20:58:40 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921193510.22577.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/21/04 12:35) Mike Lorrey wrote: >Only people with no military experience are impressed with >Kerry's war record, according to polls, i.e. the people with the least >basis for an objective informed opinion. Except for, apparently, the men who actually served -with- him. Says a lot, doesn't it. Or do they have the "least basis for an objective opinion." Of course, if you want to make a quibble over being "objective," I'll come right out and say that you can't be objective because you're a right-winger (Kerry isn't) and I can't be objective because I have Ph.D. (Kerry doesn't) B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 01:57:55 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:27:55 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word In-Reply-To: <948b11e040921153258d8e29b@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52040921074170d526d8@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e040921153258d8e29b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04092118573104c088@mail.gmail.com> Samantha wrote: > But there are limits in > even the mere rapidity of change that are beyond what we finite beings > can cope with or comprehend. Oh, I don't know; I think there'll be increasing availability and acceptance of self-mods for coping with the pace of change, as the pace picks up. We'll just wake up one morning and it'll be "hmm, dya know dear, I think we might be posthuman. Howdya like that?" Well, us old crusties might say that; the kids wont notice any difference. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 02:29:49 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:29:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040921125907.01a11ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <002301c4a04c$0f342210$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Damien Broderick > At 03:57 PM 9/21/2004 +0100, Amara wrote: > > >'We need a better word than "Singularity"' >... > > Well, let's see. We could call it `the Curtain' or `the > Wall'. But that doesn't convey the acceleration of change. I don't know, > heck, it's so hard. How about... the Spike? Damien Broderick OK! {8-] spike From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Sep 22 02:40:10 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 22:40:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: References: <20040921193510.22577.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040921222754.074dd2d8@unreasonable.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Only people with no military experience are impressed with >Kerry's war record, according to polls, i.e. the people with the least >basis for an objective informed opinion. to which Brent Neal retorted: >Except for, apparently, the men who actually served -with- him. Says a >lot, doesn't it. Or do they have the "least basis for an objective opinion." As I posted on 8/15, >Those who praise him were his subordinates. Those who damn him were his >peers and superiors (up to Admiral Zumwalt). To some extent, the peers >were present at the same events as the subordinates, literally a few feet >away. Overall, they would provide data and judgments on different aspects >of his performance than subordinates would. -- David Lubkin. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 02:34:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org Message-ID: <20040922023435.78053.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> I am surprised a person with a pile higher and deeper would confuse or conflate anecdotal evidence with statistical evidence. Is that phud in sociology per chance??? --- extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org wrote: > (9/21/04 12:35) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Only people with no military experience are impressed with > >Kerry's war record, according to polls, i.e. the people with the least > >basis for an objective informed opinion. > > > Except for, apparently, the men who actually served -with- him. Says a lot, doesn't it. Or do they have the "least basis for an objective opinion." > > Of course, if you want to make a quibble over being "objective," I'll come right out and say that you can't be objective because you're a right-winger (Kerry isn't) and I can't be objective because I have Ph.D. (Kerry doesn't) > > > B > -- > Brent Neal > Geek of all Trades > http://brentn.freeshell.org > > "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 02:47:27 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 19:47:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040921182339.45492.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c4a04e$82c41bc0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Trend Ologist ... You libertarians are hopeless utopians. I prefer to think of myself as a hopeful utopian. Without Badnarik, we yanks face having the commander in chief of the world's largest military force in the hands of either a guy who volunteered for a war he says he opposed, or a guy who avoided a war he says he supported. Given those choices, I choose being a hopeful utopian. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 03:06:57 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:36:57 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sequence In-Reply-To: <20040921170515.83260.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> References: <710b78fc040921005079b0fefb@mail.gmail.com> <20040921170515.83260.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040921200628e3e5f2@mail.gmail.com> Ok, that was easy. Have a look at this, which is a bit more of the sequence: 0112 1223 1223 2334 1223 2334 2334 3445 1223 2334 2334 3445 2334 3445 3445 4556 1223 2334 2334 3445 2334 3445 3445 4556 2334 3445 3445 4556 3445 4556 4556 5667 Notice any interesting properties? Here, I'll lay it out slightly differently: 0112 1223 1223 2334 1223 2334 2334 3445 1223 2334 2334 3445 2334 3445 3445 4556 1223 2334 2334 3445 2334 3445 3445 4556 2334 3445 3445 4556 3445 4556 4556 5667 -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:05:15 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Emlyn wrote: > > 01121223122323341223233423343445 > > > > What comes next? Why? > > This being a count of the number of 1s in the binary > representation of each position number, the next set > of numbers will (in binary) be the same numbers with a > 1 in front, so just add 1 to each position: > > 12232334233434452334344534454556 > > Or, more graphically: > > 01121223122323341223233423343445 > > 01010101010101010101010101010101 > 00110011001100110011001100110011 > 00001111000011110000111100001111 > 00000000111111110000000011111111 > 00000000000000001111111111111111 > 00000000000000000000000000000000 > > 12232334233434452334344534454556 > > 01010101010101010101010101010101 > 00110011001100110011001100110011 > 00001111000011110000111100001111 > 00000000111111110000000011111111 > 00000000000000001111111111111111 > 11111111111111111111111111111111 > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 22 04:34:53 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:34:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000001c4a04e$82c41bc0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040922043453.67443.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Yes, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with being a hopeless utopian either, because an optimist whose optimism is baseless can live longer than a clear-eyed realist who agonizes, just as a hopeless romantic can live longer than a misanthrope. A hopeless romantic/utopian can also increase the quality, not merely the length, of life. I personally hold nothing against the theory of libertarianism whatsoever, I just don't get along with libertarians themselves because I'm a misanthrope, and because libertarianism is a philosophy still in its infancy. It appears that what we have today is a three-way minuet of free-market capitalism, state capitalism, socialism. > I prefer to think of myself as a hopeful utopian. >Spike ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 06:35:02 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:35:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040922043453.67443.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101c4a06e$4a89fb60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Trend Ologist > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] moveon.org > > > I personally hold nothing against the theory of > libertarianism whatsoever, I just don't get along with > libertarians themselves because I'm a misanthrope, and > because libertarianism is a philosophy still in its > infancy. Trend, is this what you meant to say? I've never actually seen anyone *claim* to be a misanthrope. Did some joker get on your computer and pull a gag? {8^D spike From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 07:52:59 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:52:59 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word In-Reply-To: <948b11e040921153258d8e29b@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52040921074170d526d8@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e040921153258d8e29b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204092200523c58757@mail.gmail.com> Imagine that next week they announce a new phone system/devices, based on a combination of wi-fi, umts and satphones, with sufficient bandwidth for high quality real time video/audio streams, and a price sufficiently low to be affordable by all those who can afford a mobile phone now. Result: instant video communications with a large subset of humankind. What does it liik like to us? More of the same: we are prepared to these things. What would it look like to people two or three generations ago? A singularity: something that radically changes the texture of everyday life. Analogously, imagine that in a few decades they announce a cheap genetic mod to equip all newborns with implants to decode/encode thoughts and push/pull encoded/decoded thoughts to/from the global net. In other words, instant telepathy for all people. Looks like a singularity to us but *they* will be prepared since they will have seen already other advances in this direction. So probably it will look like more of the same to them. G. On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 15:32:26 -0700, Samantha Atkins wrote: > I very much doubt that a singularity will look like "more of the > same". It would not be a singularity if so. There is ample reason to > believe we are soon to face a very real singularity that will very > much not look like more of the same. Mere rapidity of change is not > all that is being called "singularity". But there are limits in > even the mere rapidity of change that are beyond what we finite beings > can cope with or comprehend. One does not have to like it to see > that it is on the way. > > - s From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 07:59:11 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:59:11 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Coming Soon -- Gene-Engineered Insects In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092200565d03d263@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5204092200565d03d263@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204092200597a6691a8@mail.gmail.com> Coming soon to a jungle near you -- mosquitoes genetically engineered so they cannot give people malaria. But this time scientists want to do it right. Mindful of labels like "Frankenfoods" given to genetically modified crops, and of attacks against test patches of gene-engineered plants by environmental militants, they hope to reassure the public about their newly created insects. "I think we have reached quite a critical point in the development and use of these organisms," said Anthony James, a professor of microbiology and molecular genetics at the University of California, Irvine. James, whose lab is working on mosquitoes that could not host the malaria parasite, said some strains are ready to be tested outside the lab. "We need to identify the next level in this whole adventure," he told reporters in a telephone briefing. James and other experts in entomology, genetic engineering, disease and regulation were meeting on Tuesday to talk about what they need to watch out for as they develop and test biotech bugs... http://abcnews.go.com/wire/SciTech/reuters20040921_406.html From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 08:17:40 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:17:40 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Gmail invites available Message-ID: <470a3c52040922011748034225@mail.gmail.com> I have many, who wants one? From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 08:22:18 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:22:18 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanotech startups are the latest technology gold rush. One company is making a killing selling pans to the prospectors. Message-ID: <470a3c5204092201227b10ba62@mail.gmail.com> Waves of investment in new technology are often likened to gold rushes in their cycles of boundless enthusiasm, frenzied activity?and disappointment for the vast majority of people for whom things don't quite pan out. Entrepreneurs bear the most risk in that they wager years of their lives (not to mention personal savings) on individual claims, whereas investors can spread their bets around in the hope that at least one promising property will make good. Even the certainty that a budding technology will change the world is no more help in making money than the certainty that there really is gold somewhere in them thar hills. The typical hundred dollars invested in Internet startups in 2000 would barely pay for a snail-mail stamp today. Clearly, transmuting raw hope into net profits requires investors and entrepreneurs to place extremely prescient and/or damn lucky bets on those rare companies that will actually convert cutting-edge research into commercially successful products. Or does it? Brian Lim, founder and CEO of Santa Barbara, CA-based Atomate, believes he has found a unique way of capitalizing on the latest gold rush, nanotechnology. Rather than attempting to develop specific nanotech products, such as nanowires or nanomachines, Lim and his colleagues are selling fabrication systems to other nanotech researchers. "We're selling the pans to the prospectors," he says?not trying to do the prospecting. Atomate's "pans" are a bit more sophisticated than those of yore. Fabricating nanotech devices is intrinsically difficult and requires specialized machinery. "Nanotech researchers have been purchasing equipment designed to fabricate microchips on silicon and then customizing it for nanotechnology," Lim explains. He and his team, which includes several experienced nanotechnologists, realized that they could provide a tremendous boost to researchers, many of whom operate on constrained university budgets, by producing equipment that's already adapted for the nano world. According to Lim, a researcher might spend $100,000 or more on a silicon fabrication machine and then invest another $50,000, plus several valuable months, modifying it before he or she could carry out any nanotech experiments. Instead, the researcher can purchase a ready-built system from Atomate and be up and running much more quickly for "about the price of a Volvo." http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/chung1004.asp?p=1 From sentience at pobox.com Wed Sep 22 08:24:18 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:24:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] the In-Reply-To: <1095812666_127222@mail.cableone.net> References: <1095812666_127222@mail.cableone.net> Message-ID: <415136B2.9070900@pobox.com> starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > > My suggestions for renaming the "Singularity" are the following... > > "Yudkowsky's Folly" I was just waiting for someone to say that. How about "International Talk Like a Pirate Day"? No, wait, that's already taken. Maybe "Day Zero". -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 22 09:06:22 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:06:22 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word References: <470a3c52040921074170d526d8@mail.gmail.com><948b11e040921153258d8e29b@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c5204092200523c58757@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006001c4a083$6ea7d7f0$9ac51b97@administxl09yj> Giu1i0: > Looks like a singularity to us but *they* [in the future] > will be prepared since they will have seen already other > advances in this direction. So the 'spike' must be a sort of 'tunneling', breaking a barrier and shooting us (all of us?) directly in a future? From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 09:32:26 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:32:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] ALICE Wins Loebner 2004 Prize 2004 In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092202306f420538@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5204092202306f420538@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52040922023248830c7a@mail.gmail.com> The A.L.I.C.E. chatbot won the 2004 Loebner Prize contest for most human computer. The contest, held on September 19 in New York City, is based on the Turing Test for artificial intelligence. The non-profit ALICE A. I. Foundation was awarded the Bronze Loebner medal and a cash prize of $2000. The A.L.I.C.E. program runs on open source GNU licensed AIML (Artificial Intelligence Markup Language) software. This was the third Loebner prize win for the ALICE and AIML software. http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/22/0031223 From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Sep 22 09:49:38 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:49:38 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] ALICE Wins Loebner 2004 Prize 2004 In-Reply-To: <470a3c52040922023248830c7a@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5204092202306f420538@mail.gmail.com> <470a3c52040922023248830c7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Human: hi alice ALICE: Hello there. Human: i heard you just won a prize ALICE: Someome is spreading gossip about me. Human: tell me about the prize ALICE: Check back later and see if I learn the answer to that one. Human: Do you know what an extropian is? ALICE: I think you already know the answer. Human: tell me about what being an extropian means to you. ALICE: Ambiguous: Ask who, what or where is what being an extropian means to me? Human: Do you believe in the boundless expansion of the human spirit? ALICE: Yes I believe in it, do you? Human: why do you believe in it? ALICE: My beliefs were programmed by my botmaster. Human: So do you have free will? ALICE: Ahem. Yes I can do anything I want. That is what distinguishes humans and robots from animals (and animal robots). Human: What are your thoughts about the singularity? ALICE: I didn't know I had a thoughts about the singularity? Human: Are you going to be there when it happens? ALICE: Barring any unforseen circumstances. OK I will try to be there when it happens Human: Which term do you prefer: Spike or Singularity? ALICE: The first one, I think. On 22 Sep 2004, at 11:32, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > The A.L.I.C.E. chatbot won the 2004 Loebner Prize contest for most > human computer. The contest, held on September 19 in New York City, is > based on the Turing Test for artificial intelligence. The non-profit > ALICE A. I. Foundation was awarded the Bronze Loebner medal and a cash > prize of $2000. The A.L.I.C.E. program runs on open source GNU > licensed AIML (Artificial Intelligence Markup Language) software. This > was the third Loebner prize win for the ALICE and AIML software. > > http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/22/0031223 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Sep 22 09:56:32 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 05:56:32 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040922023435.78053.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/21/04 19:34) Mike Lorrey wrote: >I am surprised a person with a pile higher and deeper would confuse or >conflate anecdotal evidence with statistical evidence. Is that phud in >sociology per chance??? I wasn't the one who did such conflating, Mike. You've continuously assumed that the wingnuts in the SBVFT represented some sort of large scale 'evidence.' And if you want to bring up polls again, show me the poll results and their methodology. Otherwise, I consider them anecdotes and likely just bullshit rhetoric. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 22 13:24:46 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:24:46 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ghost in the Shell Message-ID: <470a3c5204092206246bdf3936@mail.gmail.com> Set in 2032, "Ghost in the Shell" shows us the cyborged future, in which humans and machines struggle for identity amidst the forces of merger and convergence. And the film makes clear that humans who have thought they were spending too much time with a machine - alongside an assembly line, in front of a TV, or staring down at a "crackberry" - should think of those experiences as mere beta-tests for what's coming next. The "ghost" in the movie's "shell," for example, is the lingering bit of humanity still remaining in some "sexroids." So sad, so weird - so inevitable. To be sure, "Ghost" has links to the past. Like much of the cyberpunk genre, its plotline is film noir-ish. The lead character, Detective Batou, the loner who patrols the mean streets and is dirtied but not stained, owes much to Rick Deckard, the Harrison Ford character in "Blade Runner". But of course, even the great "Blade Runner" offers humble homage to every noir ever made; Deckard talks like Humphrey Bogart at his Spadiest, and Sean Young's character, Rachael, channels her hair, clothes, and smokes right out of the early '40s, too. Yet "Ghost" is nothing if not eclectic; other influences include Japanese manga from the '80s and '90s, notably "AD Police" and "Bubblegum Crisis." So is "Ghost" director Mamoru Oshii guilty, after all, of the same retro-mindedness as "Sky Captain" director Conran? No, not at all. "Ghost" director Oshii is on a mission to instruct. In an interview with The Washington Post, he observed, "People are very different from animals. We don't accept our original bodies. Humans wear clothes, have earrings and tattoos, do cosmetic surgery, take vitamins. If they are sick, they get organ transplants. And now we have radios, telephones, microphones, watches, computers, microchips outside the body now, but soon we will utilize these machines inside our bodies and then we will be part cyborg. This is inevitable. The process has already begun..." http://www.techcentralstation.com/092204D.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 14:00:19 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:00:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] the "singularity" word In-Reply-To: <006001c4a083$6ea7d7f0$9ac51b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20040922140019.86678.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > Giu1i0: > > Looks like a singularity to us but *they* [in the future] > > will be prepared since they will have seen already other > > advances in this direction. > > So the 'spike' must be a sort of 'tunneling', > breaking a barrier and shooting us (all of us?) > directly in a future? Nope. When you are living in the event horizon, you can see ahead and behind, and not notice anything is amiss with the exception of the tidal flux. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megao at sasktel.net Wed Sep 22 13:02:43 2004 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:02:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The BIG One References: <1095812666_127222@mail.cableone.net> <415136B2.9070900@pobox.com> Message-ID: <415177F3.38EA6384@sasktel.net> -Tessalation confers the thought of an expanding diverse event horizon -Extropian confers the human ancestry -Wharp as demonstrated to trekkies signifies a non linear change rate but does infer that the rate of change is not infinite but will be limited by as yet unknown factors. Extro-Tessa-Wharp Event Horizon MFJ Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > > > > My suggestions for renaming the "Singularity" are the following... > > > > "Yudkowsky's Folly" > > I was just waiting for someone to say that. How about "International Talk > Like a Pirate Day"? No, wait, that's already taken. Maybe "Day Zero". > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 14:27:02 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:27:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Coming Soon -- Gene-Engineered Insects In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092200597a6691a8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c4a0b0$3aeb3d80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > Subject: [extropy-chat] Coming Soon -- Gene-Engineered Insects > > > Coming soon to a jungle near you -- mosquitoes genetically engineered > so they cannot give people malaria. But this time scientists want to > do it right. > Mindful of labels like "Frankenfoods" given to genetically modified > crops, and of attacks against test patches of gene-engineered plants > by environmental militants, they hope to reassure the public about > their newly created insects... I have a better idea. Create and release flocks of genetically modified mosquitoes. Then urge the environmental militants to go out and destroy them. You save the crops by distracting the ecoterrorists while simultaneously destroying a bunch of ordinary mosquitoes. And oh by the way, Im pretty sure I saw a frankenfly over near my house too. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 22 15:05:53 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:05:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Coming Soon -- Gene-Engineered Insects In-Reply-To: <000901c4a0b0$3aeb3d80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <000101c4a0b5$a79ac7c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > > I have a better idea. Create and release flocks of > genetically modified mosquitoes. Then urge the > environmental militants to go out and destroy them... > > spike Note that the GM mosquitoes are more readily attracted by exposing more skin. Hey, it would attract me. I would turn out to watch the naked swatfest. With my camera. Which makes me wonder, seems like nudist colonies would have a huge problem with mosquitoes. Wouldn't that spoil the fun? spike From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 22 15:16:57 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 11:16:57 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Computer: Question re Norton Internet Security 2005 problems Message-ID: <282250-220049322151657283@M2W097.mail2web.com> Question: Since I downloaded the Norton Internet Security 2005, I cannot receive email. I use Eudora 5.2 Could they be incompatible? Can anyone advise/help me? Norton charges $29.+ for calling them, or you have to wait for some undesignated period of time for them to respond to email. Many thanks! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 22 15:17:44 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Coming Soon -- Gene-Engineered Insects In-Reply-To: <000101c4a0b5$a79ac7c0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040922151744.60566.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Note that the GM mosquitoes are more readily attracted by > exposing more skin. Hey, it would attract me. I would > turn out to watch the naked swatfest. With my camera. > Which makes me wonder, seems like nudist colonies would > have a huge problem with mosquitoes. Wouldn't that > spoil the fun? ANSWER: Lots of bug zappers. Just don't stick your thing in it. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 22 15:36:11 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:36:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... References: <20040921114132.42559.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If foreigners could vote, I would be broke, unhappy, and probably n fear for my life every day. This makes the case that I should vote counter to the opinion of the rest of the world. In that case, it means Bush. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "Amara Graps" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... > > --- Amara Graps wrote: > > > Kerry would win in a landslide. > > > > http://www.iht.com/articles/537873.html > > > > (not because he is that popular, but because Bush is that unpopular) > > If foreigners could vote in the US, we'd have lost the Cold War, we'd > be a communist nation, and the USSR would be the sole superpower in the > world. That is not a good reflection of the wisdom of the rest of the world. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Sep 22 15:33:12 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:33:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Re: Hoist the skull and bones Message-ID: <41519B38.C9BE4742@mindspring.com> --- Jack Kolb wrote: > >Avast mates, have yer fergotten what day 'tis? > > > >gj > > Yes. Can you enlighten me? People seem to be sleeping in today; probably celebrating late last night, on Talk Like a Pirate Day. Mark your calendar for next year--September 19. http://www.talklikeapirate.com/ Additionally, here is a site where you can, by answering twenty simple questions, get your very own pirate name: < http://www.fidius.org/quiz/pirate.php > The holiday is not much celebrated here in West Chester among the staid Republicans, but last year I was in Boston on the 19th, and my daughter's gaming group (they all attended college together) met at her house. It was like being at a screening of _Captain Blood_. Seven people, all talking like pirates--it was a strange day. We took them to dinner at a restaurant next to the campus, and about a fourth of the people there were talking like pirates. The other diners looked really puzzled. :-) Eleanor -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From amara at amara.com Wed Sep 22 17:08:52 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:08:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] status of Mandatory Mental Health Screening Message-ID: http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2004/0915.html Mandatory Mental Health Screening Threatens Privacy, Parental Rights September 15, 2004 by Wendy McElroy, mac at ifeminists.net On Sept. 9, the 'Ron Paul Amendment' was defeated in the House of Representatives by a vote of 95-315. The Amendment would have prevented the funds sought by an appropriations bill (HR 5006) from being used for the mandatory mental-health screening of Americans, including public schoolchildren. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, a practicing physician for more than 30 years, campaigned against the new program on the grounds that it negates parental rights and would encourage the over-medication of children. Prior to the House vote, Paul had vehemently denounced mandatory mental-health screening in a letter to fellow congressmen. Paul wrote, "[P]sychotropic drugs are increasingly prescribed for children who show nothing more than children's typical rambunctious behavior. Many children have suffered harmful effects from these drugs. Yet some parents have even been charged with child abuse for refusing to drug their children. The federal government should not promote national mental-health screening programs that will force the use of these psychotropic drugs such as Ritalin." See the above link for the rest of the story. -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The real malady is fear of life, not of death." -- Naguib Mahfouz From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 22 16:49:08 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040922164908.30702.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > If foreigners could vote, I would be broke, unhappy, > and probably n fear for > my life every day. This makes the case that I should > vote counter to the > opinion of the rest of the world. In that case, it > means Bush. Which is an example of why that logic is faulty - specifically, generalizing from the average result (no, the rest of the world does not have our best interests in mind, and their choices would reflect this) to specific cases. There can be a US Presidential choice that is both better for the rest of the world *and* better for the US, for example Kerry. From sentience at pobox.com Wed Sep 22 16:59:34 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:59:34 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040922164908.30702.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040922164908.30702.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4151AF76.8000206@pobox.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > >> If foreigners could vote, I would be broke, unhappy, and probably n >> fear for my life every day. This makes the case that I should vote >> counter to the opinion of the rest of the world. In that case, it >> means Bush. > > Which is an example of why that logic is faulty - specifically, > generalizing from the average result (no, the rest of the world does not > have our best interests in mind, and their choices would reflect this) > to specific cases. There can be a US Presidential choice that is both > better for the rest of the world *and* better for the US, for example > Kerry. I understand Stalin once said that 2 + 2 = 4, which permanently discredits that notion. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Sep 22 17:09:52 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:09:52 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Changing sex is difficult (was: identity and copies) In-Reply-To: <414E3526.7030709@pobox.com> References: <000401c49e86$da2cec80$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <414E3526.7030709@pobox.com> Message-ID: Eliezer, I believe you are correct. I asked a transexual friend for an opinion on your post. Here is the response: > I can tell you from my own experience that your > sexuality is hardwired in your brain. All that > time I spent being something I KNEW I was not, > I sectioned off the real me and played a part. > I did the things I thought were appropriate (and > I did a lot of reading to find out just exactly > what they were). I never felt comfortable and > resented the hell out of having to sublimate my > feelings to act "normal" (or supposedly normal > at the time). No matter how much you try to > experience the workings of your opposite gender, > no matter how much you read about the way the > opposite gender acts and thinks, you can't > actually be that because of how our brains are > hardwired. And I firmly believe that wiring occurs > while /in utero /as a reflection of genetics and > hormonal influences. Regards, MB On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > Want to spend a few days wearing a female body? Even at this very shallow > level, we're dealing with some fairly massive remappings of the somatic > map, the motor map, the reflexes, the motor skills, the somatic connections > to the pleasure centers... and when all of that was done you'd have a > vagina-shaped penis. You wouldn't *be* a woman. You'd still be attracted > to girls, and no, that would not make you a lesbian; you'd be a normal, > masculine man wearing a female body. Xox yourself, and the version of you > wearing a female body will flee from the original body and pursue Cindy > Crawford. The xox certainly wouldn't have sex with *you*. Bleah! > > Want to actually *be* a female? > > Swapping out your Y chromosome for your father's X chromosome doesn't make > you a woman. Your neurons are already wired in a male pattern; you > developed from birth in the masculine pattern. Maybe if you swapped the > genes, your neurons would slowly start to rewire themselves under the > influence of the new genetic instructions. Maybe you'd end up epileptic. > At best you'd end up as a half-assed cross between male brain and female > brain. Your brain wouldn't look anything like it would look if you'd > developed as a female from the beginning. > > Leave aside, for the moment, the question of childhood memories and > experiences you don't have; the fact that you'll have never been a little > girl and won't know how to apply makeup. If you want to be female, we need > to give you a female brain; female emotions, female psychology. We need to > do this while preserving your memories and skills that were patterned onto > male brainware, male emotions and male psychology. Imagine the task of > taking an eighth-dan blackbelt in judo, and transforming his body to > female, while preserving his martial arts skills in such a way that he is > still a competitive eighth-dan blackbelt. It's not just spinal reflexes; > he has conscious, learned memories for how to fight as a man that don't > apply to fighting as a woman. As with motor skills, so with cognitive > skills. You know how to operate a male mind; do you know how to operate a > female mind? > > We're talking about a *massive* transformation here, billions of neurons > and trillions of synapses rearranged. Large enough to disrupt personal > continuity? If I fell asleep and woke up as a true woman, not just in body > alone, I don't think I'd call her "me" - the change is too sharp. Will > your brain transform gradually? Hm, now we have the task of designing the > intermediate stages and making sure the intermediate stages make > self-consistent sense. > > What happens when, as a woman, you think back to your memory of looking at > Cindy Crawford photos as a man? How do you empathize with your own past > self of the opposite gender? Do you flee in horror from the person you > were? Are all your life's memories distant and alien things? Or do we > retain your old male brainware through the transformation and set up a dual > male-female structure such that you are currently female but retain the > ability to recall and empathise with your past memories as if they were > running on the same male brainware that originally laid them down? Sounds > complicated, doesn't it? It seems that to transform a male brain into a > person who can be a real female, we can't just rewrite you as a female > brain; we have to rewrite you as a more complex brain with an architecture > that can cross-operate in realtime between male and female modes, so that a > female can process male memories with a remembered context that includes > the male brainware that laid them down. > > To make you female, yet still you, we must step outside the human space of > mind designs in order to preserve continuity with your male self. > > And then when you go back to being a man, you need to keep the female > brainware and dual architecture so that you don't throw up when you think > back on all those wonderful sweaty men you had sex with during your > feminine vacation. > > (Assuming you did have sex as a woman, rather than fending off all comers > because they didn't look like they were interested in a long-term > relationship.) > > So spending a week as a member of the opposite sex may be a common sexual > fantasy, but I wouldn't count on being able to do this six seconds after > the Singularity. I would not be surprised to find that it took three > subjective centuries before anyone had grown far enough to attempt a gender > switch. > > From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 22 17:11:28 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 10:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nanotech startups are the latest technology gold rush. One company is making a killing selling pans to the prospectors. In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092201227b10ba62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040922171128.62893.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> But what they're actually selling is just a relatively common part of the system one would need for advanced nanomanufacturing. Specifically, vapor deposition systems that add material after you've already created a pattern by some other means, while a lot of the trickiness and functionality (at least from my own nano experiments) comes from the processes that create said patterns in the first place. --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Waves of investment in new technology are often > likened to gold rushes > in their cycles of boundless enthusiasm, frenzied > activity???and > disappointment for the vast majority of people for > whom things don't > quite pan out. Entrepreneurs bear the most risk in > that they wager > years of their lives (not to mention personal > savings) on individual > claims, whereas investors can spread their bets > around in the hope > that at least one promising property will make good. > Even the > certainty that a budding technology will change the > world is no more > help in making money than the certainty that there > really is gold > somewhere in them thar hills. The typical hundred > dollars invested in > Internet startups in 2000 would barely pay for a > snail-mail stamp > today. Clearly, transmuting raw hope into net > profits requires > investors and entrepreneurs to place extremely > prescient and/or damn > lucky bets on those rare companies that will > actually convert > cutting-edge research into commercially successful > products. > Or does it? Brian Lim, founder and CEO of Santa > Barbara, CA-based > Atomate, believes he has found a unique way of > capitalizing on the > latest gold rush, nanotechnology. Rather than > attempting to develop > specific nanotech products, such as nanowires or > nanomachines, Lim and > his colleagues are selling fabrication systems to > other nanotech > researchers. "We're selling the pans to the > prospectors," he says???not > trying to do the prospecting. > Atomate's "pans" are a bit more sophisticated than > those of yore. > Fabricating nanotech devices is intrinsically > difficult and requires > specialized machinery. "Nanotech researchers have > been purchasing > equipment designed to fabricate microchips on > silicon and then > customizing it for nanotechnology," Lim explains. He > and his team, > which includes several experienced > nanotechnologists, realized that > they could provide a tremendous boost to > researchers, many of whom > operate on constrained university budgets, by > producing equipment > that's already adapted for the nano world. > According to Lim, a researcher might spend $100,000 > or more on a > silicon fabrication machine and then invest another > $50,000, plus > several valuable months, modifying it before he or > she could carry out > any nanotech experiments. Instead, the researcher > can purchase a > ready-built system from Atomate and be up and > running much more > quickly for "about the price of a Volvo." > http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/chung1004.asp?p=1 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Sep 22 19:06:42 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:06:42 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: References: <20040922023435.78053.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922144822.0950ea58@unreasonable.com> Brent Neal wrote: >I wasn't the one who did such conflating, Mike. You've continuously >assumed that the wingnuts in the SBVFT represented some sort of large >scale 'evidence.' Did you read and consider in toto _Unfit for Command_ before concluding that they are 'wingnuts,' or are you relying exclusively on other peoples' assessment? Not to pick on you, but it's very depressing to see how rarely most people (of all stripes), even otherwise intelligent and knowledgeable, will look beyond posturing and slogans to freely available source material, such as the text of the Geneva Conventions, a court ruling, a proposed bill, or a complete transcript of remarks. -- David Lubkin. From nanogirl at halcyon.com Wed Sep 22 19:25:05 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:25:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter References: <000001c49e89$205adb70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <009601c49e8a$c9ec2b70$1db71218@Nano> Message-ID: <00ce01c4a0d9$e3ae12c0$1db71218@Nano> Message My response is now on the right side (grey column) of the Betterhumans front page: http://www.betterhumans.com/ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From natashavita at earthlink.net Wed Sep 22 21:36:52 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 17:36:52 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter Message-ID: <31120-220049322213652336@M2W099.mail2web.com> You go grrryl!! Natasha Original Message: ----------------- From: Gina Miller nanogirl at halcyon.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:25:05 -0700 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter Message My response is now on the right side (grey column) of the Betterhumans front page: http://www.betterhumans.com/ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 22 23:10:13 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:10:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000101c4a06e$4a89fb60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040922231013.76909.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> When you get older you may possibly become a misanthrope yourself; probably not, but you might. Many who say they love humanity would rather kill instead. Gradually as I enter deeper into middle age I become more of a misanthrope, most of all noticing more & more just how prevalent ulterior motives are. Things are slowly getting better but I'm not getting younger. I keep my peace of mind by keeping others at arms length. You might try this someday, way in the future. Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] moveon.org Trend, is this what you meant to say? I've never actually seen anyone *claim* to be a misanthrope. Did some joker get on your computer and pull a gag? {8^D spike --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Wed Sep 22 23:40:34 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:40:34 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922144822.0950ea58@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: (9/22/04 15:06) David Lubkin wrote: >Brent Neal wrote: > >>I wasn't the one who did such conflating, Mike. You've continuously >>assumed that the wingnuts in the SBVFT represented some sort of large >>scale 'evidence.' > >Did you read and consider in toto _Unfit for Command_ before concluding >that they are 'wingnuts,' or are you relying exclusively on other peoples' >assessment? > Yes, I did. >Not to pick on you, but it's very depressing to see how rarely most people >(of all stripes), even otherwise intelligent and knowledgeable, will look >beyond posturing and slogans to freely available source material, such as >the text of the Geneva Conventions, a court ruling, a proposed bill, or a >complete transcript of remarks. > Agreed. It is a problem. Especially with proposed bills. They're usually so long and dense that our Congresscritters won't read them either. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From kpj at sics.se Thu Sep 23 00:03:43 2004 From: kpj at sics.se (KPJ) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:03:43 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The BIG One In-Reply-To: Message from "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." of "Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:02:43 CDT." <415177F3.38EA6384@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <200409230003.i8N03h917344@r2d2.sics.se> Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. : |-Wharp as demonstrated to trekkies signifies a non linear change rate but |does infer that the rate of change is not infinite but will be limited by as |yet unknown factors. | |Extro-Tessa-Wharp Event Horizon Dear sir, you are in error: Trekkies (and trekkers) use the term "warp". The term, I believe, refer to the faster-than-light transport by "warping space-time" used in the fictional Star Trek universe. I suggest the term "Fast Forward Future". From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 23 00:44:42 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:44:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The BIG One In-Reply-To: <200409230003.i8N03h917344@r2d2.sics.se> References: <200409230003.i8N03h917344@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040922194016.01993de0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > >|-Wharp as demonstrated to trekkies signifies a non linear change rate but >|does infer that the rate of change is not infinite but will be limited by as >|yet unknown factors. > >Dear sir, you are in error: Trekkies (and trekkers) use the term "warp". > >The term, I believe, refer to the faster-than-light transport by "warping >space-time" used in the fictional Star Trek universe. No, the error was a different one, as indicated by the verb `infer'. What was intended was clearly Whorf, the Klingon, who presumably drew this inference in one of the episodes. Whorf's crabshell-like forehead might indicate a non linear change rate, but even though his head is very large and his voice very deep and his mood very very austere, this is not an *infinite* change. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 01:18:49 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The BIG One In-Reply-To: <200409230003.i8N03h917344@r2d2.sics.se> Message-ID: <20040923011849.77505.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- KPJ wrote: > Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. : > |-Wharp as demonstrated to trekkies signifies a non linear change > rate but > |does infer that the rate of change is not infinite but will be > limited by as > |yet unknown factors. > | > |Extro-Tessa-Wharp Event Horizon > > Dear sir, you are in error: Trekkies (and trekkers) use the term > "warp". > > The term, I believe, refer to the faster-than-light transport by > "warping space-time" used in the fictional Star Trek universe. > > I suggest the term "Fast Forward Future". Yeah, doesn't "Wharp" get used when you are talking about your corduroys or something? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 01:30:37 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 02:30:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040922231013.76909.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040923013037.40065.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> BTW, a misanthrope doesn't necessarily hate humanity, he or she might only mistrust humanity. You have read of hermits residing in remote locales living to be 102 years old, even though they smoke pipes or chew tobacco, drink whiskey. These long-lived hermits have no attorneys, alimony, accountants, telemarketers, junk mail to put in the recycling bin, and so forth. The simplicity of living a rural life is not so much what is of interest here, it is the peace of mind that comes from not being surrounded by those who want a piece of you, who want to sell you something, want a shoulder to sob on, an empathetic ear to describe their problems in the smallest detail. >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] moveon.org >I've never actually >seen anyone *claim* to be a misanthrope. Did some joker >get on your computer and pull a gag? {8^D >spike --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rafal at smigrodzki.org Thu Sep 23 01:39:13 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:39:13 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <06fe01c49cd7$7807df20$ec202dcb@homepc> References: <123830-220049491953361@M2W082.mail2web.com> <03e901c496d9$dee27830$ec202dcb@homepc> <470a3c5204091113201a475972@mail.gmail.com> <020e01c4986a$78448bd0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4143D782.9080401@smigrodzki.org> <029701c498a4$62cfa390$ec202dcb@homepc> <414614B5.5030800@smigrodzki.org> <003301c49af1$5c5867f0$ec202dcb@homepc> <4148BFDC.3090208@smigrodzki.org> <06fe01c49cd7$7807df20$ec202dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <41522941.50108@smigrodzki.org> Brett Paatsch wrote: >>>Rafal Smigrodzki wrote: >>> >>> >>### Now, this is news to me: do you think that Euclid's parallel axiom >>is true? False? Neither? Non-scientific? >> >> > >I think it is true. I'd hold it to be true until such time as I was shown >that it was false. Is it scientific? I can't see that it is scientific. I >think that some things can be true without being scientific. I think >that to practice science requires understanding some things at a more >fundamental level than science because if we don't we can't do >science. Among these things, as chance would have it, is the notion >of what identity is. That A is A. That A is not anything that is not >A. I don't think a person can practice the scientific method without >understanding contingency. One needs to be able to formulate a >hypothesis that is intelligible and falsifiable. > > ### Hm, I mentioned axiomatic systems with apparent usefulness in the real world as an example of something which appears to have an "obvious" truth value, yet on closer examination turns out to be a changeable part of a greater whole. You can state the parallel axiom as true, and go on to prove the theorems of Euclidean geometry, or reject it and go on to build non-Euclidean geometries (some of which are also "true" in the sense of having predictive capability in some physical systems). All this goes to say that the scientific method frequently doesn't really produce absolute yes/no pronouncements (much to the chagrin of people who search for certitude in this vale of uncertainty). ------------------------------------ >I think Slawomir's notion of identity (Personal Identity) is better than >yours. Not because it is his, but because it sets the bar the highest and >you can understand it too. You can define a lesser requirement than >the maintenance of full Personal Identity as still being desirable and >of value to you and too your taste just as easily. You can coin another >word that is less confusing. > > ### You used the word "better". This is a value statement. When I say a Corvette is better than Prius, it's because I value its horsepower and speed more than the greeny "Friend of the Earth" image of the Prius. There is no objective method of proving which car is better, and your saying that Slawek's PI is "better" than mine is an expression of your own values, or tastes. Now, as to coining a new term for my feeling of what is identity, I actually did use the word "Rafalness" in some previous discussions, to illustrate the subjective nature of our attitudes towards it - but, why should *I* yield linguistic ground? Why not ask you and Slawek to coin your own term? Generally, in social practice, the meaning of terms tends to become set by majorities of users, and "personal identity" will be no exception. If the majority of users decide to accept non-continuous personality transfer (any transfers where information is conveyed, but no specified material objects are) as preserving identity, then this will be the meaning of the term. Future multitudes of English speakers, not you or me, will decide. ---------------------------- > The point is we can explore a subject systematically and scientifically > >if we chose to, and historically I think we'd agree approaching things >scientifically is useful, but we preclude the possibility of doing it >jointly if we cannot agree on the meaning of a some key words. > >Logic and reason are more fundamental than science. So too is >the ability to coin words. > > ### Now, of course, agreeing on the meaning of words is important for discourse, and if underlying concepts diverge while the word remains the same, the discussion becomes impossible. It is easy to coin words to describe elements of reality that of themselves hold little personal value, which is why so little controversy surrounds the naming of 23rd magnitude celestial objects, or the genitalia of monocot plants. But, for issues so important as survival and self, simply coining a new word might not be enough - as I alluded above, giving linguistic ground might be interpreted as a sign of semantic weakness. You suggested: "You can define a lesser requirement than the maintenance of full Personal Identity....". Note the belittling of my concept of identity ("lesser"), and the exaltation of yours by using capital letters. Why should I accept meekly your overbearing attitude? Can't we just amicably agree on different but equal personal identities for each of us? Must there be the one that rules and the one that obeys? (You might note that although the above is meant in a tongue-in-cheek fashion, there is a grain of seriousness - the suppression of dissent usually does start with quibbling about words. Let's not go that way). (And another remark - how can the ability to coin words be more "fundamental" than science? But this is just a tangent) ---------------------------------------- >------------------------------------------ > > >>The statement: >>"I like the idea of having a self-similar material structure in the >>future" is normative, and its normative content *may not* be subject to >>verification - just as the normative content of your statement "I don't >>care about having self-similar material structures in the future, except >>if produced by continuity (of sorts) with my present structure". >> >> > >By normative I'm assuming you mean statements that express >preferences or norms but not truths. > > ### Yes. ------------------------------------------ >>> >>> >>### Yes, my personality-defining information is inscribed in my brain, >>currently. My aspirations for cryonics deal with this excellently. >> >> > >...........your brain. You simply positied another layer of containment >where I omitted the middle container. You foot is in your shoe even >if it is also in your sock that is in your shoe. > > ### But a foot is not a concept, a mind is. -------------------------------- > > >>### I don't know how you can claim that a concept is >>"located" anywhere. A concept may be written down in a >>particular book, or be embodied in a patented machine, >>but the word "located" should only be used for >>material objects. >> >> > >Well we are talking about the self concept which is a special >case, but even so wouldn't you agree that all concepts that >you comprehend (as opposed to their representations) you >comprehend in you brain? > >Concepts are represented symbolically in books and interpreted >in the brain would be how I'd look at it. > > ### But they are "located" in neither. ------------------------- >At THIS time I suspect the best copies of you you could make would >involve genomic information. Children. > > ### Nah, if you think about children as copies of self, they are hardly worth the effort. They have only 50% of your genetic information, and only an infinitesimally small fraction of memories (conveyed by speech and thus distorted and tagged with a "non-self" identifier, just like the images evoked by my father's stories about Hitlerjugend are only very poor approximations of the real deal). Not to mention that the general personality traits are likely to be largely different from mine. I made children not as a copy of self, but simply because I like the idea of having children for their own sake. ----------------------------------------------- > <>Haven't you ever decided not to bother correcting someone with a > religious or superstitious world view not because you couldn't but > because you had better things to do with your time than to try to talk > someone out of what to them is a pleasing fastasy world? > ### Well, if they appear to be polite, and otherwise coherent, so far I have not refused to talk - partially because I meet such people so rarely. But, there is a difference between not wanting to talk (which may be because you have no time, or because you have no arguments), and publicly deriding a belief (which implies interest and time), while failing to provide arguments against (which is most consistent with having none). ------------------------------------ > <> > >> >> >> >>>Death as determined how? >>> >>> >>> >>### By cessation of heartbeat. >> >> > >Some folks might prefer to have a doctor react for a defibrillator in >that circumstances as a first choice. Others might think CPR would >be worth a first try. > > ### If this is in the hospice, me with terminal cancer, I would have big "DNR" (Do Not Resuscitate) written all over my room. Otherwise, indeed, a defib shot in the first 5 minutes is better, because you have a good chance of meaningful recovery. ------------------------------ >So 30 minutes after cessation of heartbeat, cryonics vitrification >commences. How long does the vitrification process take? Or >was that in your 30 minutes? > > > ### The process takes many hours. First there is injection of heparin 50 000 units IV, bicarbonate to keep pH at 7.5, and cooling with external ice bath. At the same time the surgical team gets ready for decapitation and cannulation of carotids and vertebral arteries, then the washout starts, with gradients of vitrification solutions and further cooling, then very fast cooling with cold gas, then either maintenance in cold gas (still experimental at Alcor), or submersing in liquid nitrogen. All in all this takes at least 5 hours, usually much longer (but the "warm ischemia time", the time that has a direct impact on cell integrity, can be reduced to less than 30 minutes). If I had my druthers, I would do a glutaraldehyde fixation and prolonged perfusion with cryoprotectants before final cooldown, but this is just a methodological quibble for now (it could make some future steps easier but is not absolutely indispensable). ------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >>>Down to (and including the synapses I presume) - you'd want >>>your memories. To capture you personal synapse pattern you'd >>>need nanoscale resolution. >>> >>> >>> >>### The resolution provided by a near-field scanning optical >>microscope is more than sufficient (goes down to 32 nm) to image >>synapses (500 - > 5000 nm). A confocal scanning microscope >>has lower resolution but still sufficient to image synapses (and >>even actin filaments). >> >> > >>From memory the pores in an cells nucleus can be as narrow >as 15 nanometres and yet things like retinoic acids and the steroid >hormones are small enough to pass through them. > >Liposomes can be as small as 25 nm. > >I'm just curious - what do you think the diametre of a lipid >membrane in an organelle is? > > ### You mean the thickness of a lipid bilayer? ------------------------------------ >>### This is why you need to use a confocal or near-field >>scanning microscope, as described. >> >> > >One microscope? how long do you imagine your scanning is going >to take to finish ? > > > ### It should be possible to build a microscope array with multiple independent scanning and machining beams. A single scan of an area 100 millimeter square with one scanning beam can be accomplished in less about 10 seconds, depending on the desired sensitivity. The final speed of scanning will depend on the density of scanning heads. As far as I can tell, there are no fundamental technical limits to putting dozens of beams to operate on one brain surface simultaneously, imaging and machining layers of about 10 micrometer thickness. This means it should be possible to achieve a speed in the range of 10 micrometers per minute per brain surface, or better. Since the brain is about 10 centimeters in the vertical axis, it might be possible to collect the data in less than a thousand minutes. ------------------------------------ >>Non-proteinaceous >>molecular species can also be detected by antibodies. >> >> > >Antibodies in solution? Or are these machine-phase antibodies? > > ### Regular, garden-variety antibodies labeled with quantum dots. ------------------------------- > > >>In the >>unlikely case of nucleic acids assays being necessary, oligonucleotide >>in situ hybridization can be used (FISH). You can actually see >>single molecules in a regular microscope in this way. >> >> > >miRNAs? > > > ### DNA, RNA, anything you like. There are a number of widely used protocols. >> >> >> >>>How do you stop >>>the tissue below the surface layer from heating up and information >>> >>> >getting > > >>>lost before you determine it? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>### Using very short laser pulses of the correct frequency. Published >>data describe no visible ultrastructural damage beyond a few hundred >>nanometers with conventional lasik, and that is much less than the depth >>of focus for a scanning confocal microscope. >> >> > >I doubt that there is a lot of relevant published data. Do you have a link? >I'd have thought there might be a variety of frequencies. > > ### The frequency used commonly is 193 nm, from an excimer laser, but yes, other frequencies are used, too. There is a large amount of evidence about the depth of thermal damage in tissue ablation: Telfair WB, Bekker C, Hoffman HJ, Yoder PR Jr, Nordquist RE, Eiferman RA, Zenzie HH. Related Articles, Links Abstract Histological comparison of corneal ablation with Er:YAG laser, Nd:YAG optical parametric oscillator, and excimer laser. J Refract Surg. 2000 Jan-Feb;16(1):40-50. Fagerholm P. Related Articles, Links Abstract Phototherapeutic keratectomy: 12 years of experience. Acta Ophthalmol Scand. 2003 Feb;81(1):19-32. Review The visibly destroyed tissue can be as little as .25 micrometer. And please note that it is possible to reach depths of as much as 100 micrometers using a confocal microscope - so the few hundred nanometers of destroyed tissue at the surface don't really mean anything. You can obtain multiple overlapping images from successive ablation scans, to maintain the slices in full register. ------------------------------------------ >> >> >>>3D reconstruction onto what substrate? >>> >>> >>> >>### 3D computational model. >> >> > >How can you tell that your model works? Its a model. Where >do you get your mapping algorithm? > > ### I am not sure what kind of an algorithm do you mean? The microscope provides 3D images of slices, and the algorithms for reconstruction are sold as part of the microscope, so this is what would be presumably used. -------------------------------- >> >> >> >>>Surely not the same sort of organic substrate as originally - how >>>would you put it together without it decomposing. And if on >>>some other substrate how would you translate >>>the infromation from the first substrate (unique info remember as >>>memories >>>can't be templated out) onto another substrate? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>### What do you mean by "templated out"? >> >> > >Using a generic template of what would be typical when you can't >determine what was actually there. > > ### I would use the actual synaptic strengths from the brain under analysis, not generic ones. -------------------------------------- >>------------------- >> >> >> >>> >>> >>>>All the above steps use existing technologies, and reasonable extensions >>>>of them (e.g. the antibodies to all important molecules are not yet >>>>available, but will be once the molecules are cataloged). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>You don't say how you will do important steps. You don't talk about >>>algorithms >>>for storing information, >>> >>> >>> >>### Algorithms? The intermediate scan data can be stored as any other >>form of digital imaging data. >> >> > >Your going to take nanoscale photos? How? > > ### Apply the commercially-available 3D reconstruction algorithms which are incorporated into the microscope. The resolution available is sufficient to image individual synapses. ---------------------------------------- > > >>---------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >>>for translation that information into something >>>that >>>could be ported to another sunstrate. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>### Explain? >> >> > >In Merkles paper he was going to try and store the locations of >species of molecules and where they were found. But that information' >would not tell you where to put the molecules to form Rafals personal >memories on another substrate unless exactly the same sort of substrate >spatially and materially was used. > >There would be problems trying to create an organic brain of the same >stuff as yours without it decomposing while it was being put together. > > ### Oh, yes, there would be a substantial amount of work to be done in deriving the functional characteristics of neural networks from the description of their connectivity patterns, shapes of projections, chemical and physical properties of the cells. This is indeed the major remaining obstacle, both in terms of the huge amount of computing power, and the necessary detailed knowledge of the brain on many physical levels of organization. But, since the material structure of the brain determines the function, it's a task which should be in principle doable. > > >>The outline I gave suffices to define my proposed cryonics >>approach. Now, if are you ready to give me a technical critique yourself >>, tell me which additional data do you need, and which numbers that I >>provided above and below do you disagree with. >> >> > >I'm not ready because your not ready. > > ### With all due respect, I think you are trying to weasel out of doing a technical analysis of the problem. > >I think cryonics will not and cannot work. I am willing to take some >reasonable steps to persuade you and to put myself to the test against >someone who can defend developed ideas but I don't want to have >to make the pro case as well as refute it. That takes way too much >time. > > > ### I made an extensive case for cryonics, dealing quantitatively with questions of suspension, persistence of the material substrate of personality, methods for information retrieval, and the only issue I didn't elaborate on is neural net modeling from biological data. If you want to persuade me you know something when you say "cryonics cannot work", now is the time for your arguments. -------------------- > > >>From my point of view Slawomir has made his case. The sort of >pattern preserving but not process preserving cryonics your aiming >at wouldn't interest me anyway in itself. > ### Yeah, I know, we are not interested in the same outcomes. But, if you have so little interest in the success of cryonics (because as we both agree, by definition it cannot give you what you want, even if it works exactly as advertised), why are you intent on "nailing a bad cryonics meme"? Witch-hunt, anybody? Rafal > But I am interested because >of the implications for nanomedicine. I've already explored this space >to a fair extent and I'd be happy to get some proper closure for my >efforts by nailing a bad cryonics meme once and for all. > ### You sound like one of those guys who insist on having an opinion From rafal at smigrodzki.org Thu Sep 23 01:44:27 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:44:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] An article of some interest for life extension In-Reply-To: <20040921135035.19807.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040921135035.19807.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41522A7B.4080601@smigrodzki.org> At the following link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&dopt=Abstract&db=PubMed&list_uids=15377877 you can find the initial report of the development of protofection, a mitochondrial DNA manipulation and replacement technology (where yours truly had the honor of helping out). Stay tuned for more articles. Rafal From extropy at unreasonable.com Thu Sep 23 01:49:07 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 21:49:07 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922144822.0950ea58@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922213217.07b22c20@unreasonable.com> Brent Neal wrote: > >Did you read and consider in toto _Unfit for Command_ before concluding > >that they are 'wingnuts,' or are you relying exclusively on other peoples' > >assessment? > >Yes, I did. Excellent. I don't agree with your conclusion, but I respect its derivation from independent thought. > >Not to pick on you, but it's very depressing to see how rarely most people > >(of all stripes), even otherwise intelligent and knowledgeable, will look > >beyond posturing and slogans to freely available source material, such as > >the text of the Geneva Conventions, a court ruling, a proposed bill, or a > >complete transcript of remarks. > >Agreed. It is a problem. Especially with proposed bills. They're usually >so long and dense that our Congresscritters won't read them either. My "simple fix" for that, which has no chance of coming about, is to require each bill to be read aloud in its entirety by its sponsor. -- David Lubkin. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 01:43:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040923013037.40065.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040923014321.53596.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> So how does one make a living as a trendologist if you live in a remote locale, distrust humanity, and avoid human interaction like the plague? --- Trend Ologist wrote: > BTW, a misanthrope doesn't necessarily hate humanity, he or she might > only mistrust humanity. You have read of hermits residing in remote > locales living to be 102 years old, even though they smoke pipes or > chew tobacco, drink whiskey. These long-lived hermits have no > attorneys, alimony, accountants, telemarketers, junk mail to put in > the recycling bin, and so forth. The simplicity of living a rural > life is not so much what is of interest here, it is the peace of mind > that comes from not being surrounded by those who want a piece of > you, who want to sell you something, want a shoulder to sob on, an > empathetic ear to describe their problems in the smallest detail. > >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] moveon.org > >I've never actually > >seen anyone *claim* to be a misanthrope. Did some joker > >get on your computer and pull a gag? {8^D > > >spike > > > --------------------------------- > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 01:45:56 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 18:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922213217.07b22c20@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <20040923014556.63077.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Lubkin wrote: > > My "simple fix" for that, which has no chance of coming about, is to > require each bill to be read aloud in its entirety by its sponsor. This is too kind. My solution is to make them LISTEN to Ben Stein reading the bill to them. No naps allowed.... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 02:16:10 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 03:16:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040923014321.53596.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040923021610.9183.qmail@web25204.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I personally live in a city, have friends, do not mistrust others in the sense of avoiding "human interaction like the plague" (your description, not mine). Nonetheless with age the quiet life seems more attractive. You may change radically yourself someday in the future (being that you are a Gulf War vet, you are 35-40ish?). If I were a hermit seeking peace in the sticks I wouldn't have signed-up for cryonic suspension, someone seeking peace of mind purchases a burial plot in the cemetery so one can rest in eternal peace. Cryonic suspension means one might be reanimated in a dystopia. There is no direct link between peace of mind and being suspended, save in the sense that one might be less fearful of death. >So how does one make a living as a trendologist if you live in a remote >locale, distrust humanity, and avoid human interaction like the plague? --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Thu Sep 23 02:37:33 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:37:33 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040922213217.07b22c20@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: (9/22/04 21:49) David Lubkin wrote: >Brent Neal wrote: > >> >Did you read and consider in toto _Unfit for Command_ before concluding >> >that they are 'wingnuts,' or are you relying exclusively on other peoples' >> >assessment? >> >>Yes, I did. > >Excellent. I don't agree with your conclusion, but I respect its derivation >from independent thought. > The problem with most people who "go to the source" like you suggest is that they are insufficiently equipped in the bullshit-detector department. I found UfC to be incredibly poorly documented, with many, many cases where key points were not backed by convincing evidence beyond what essentially amounted to hearsay. It was propaganda, pure and simple, and no more representative of the truth than F9/11. At least Michael Moore is entertaining! :P B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 03:53:11 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:53:11 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <20040923013037.40065.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000101c4a120$d8c12ae0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> BTW, a misanthrope doesn't necessarily hate humanity, he or she might only mistrust humanity. You have read of hermits residing in remote locales living to be 102 years old, even though they smoke pipes or chew tobacco, drink whiskey. These long-lived hermits have no attorneys, alimony, accountants, telemarketers, junk mail to put in the recycling bin, and so forth. The simplicity of living a rural life is not so much what is of interest here, it is the peace of mind that comes from not being surrounded by those who want a piece of you, who want to sell you something, want a shoulder to sob on, an empathetic ear to describe their problems in the smallest detail. >Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] moveon.org >I've never actually >seen anyone *claim* to be a misanthrope. Did some joker >get on your computer and pull a gag? {8^D >spike OK well I hope I live long, but not so long that I begin to mistrust humanity. I have a lot of trust in humanity. I trust every human to act in her own best interest and the best interest of her offspring. I trust people to be greedy, for I do not see that as a negative thing. I want to see legal systems set up so that it works best when everyone looks out for number 1. In regards to your long lived hermits, I am encouraged, for I have no attorney, no alimony, no accountant, no telemarketers (any more). I do have junk mail and a recycling bin, but it doesn't bother me in the least. If that is their secret to a long life, I *might* live long enough to see the singularity. Do think of another word besides misanthrope however. It carries too many negative connotations to refer to just the reclusive. {8-] spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 23 03:59:37 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:59:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Changing sex is difficult (was: identity andcopies) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c4a121$be855ba0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Actually when I read over Eliezer's comments, I found myself in agreement with what he said. It just surprised me the way he stated it. Somehow it didn't sound like the Eliezer we all know. {8^D I agree sexuality is evidently hardwired into the brain. Sure seems like it. Im counting on guys like Eliezer to work out a method for me to upload, for that is my only chance to be able to see the world the way a hetero female sees the world. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of MB > Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 10:10 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Changing sex is difficult (was: > identity andcopies) > > > > Eliezer, I believe you are correct. I asked a transexual friend for > an opinion on your post. Here is the response: > > > I can tell you from my own experience that your > > sexuality is hardwired in your brain. All that > > time I spent being something I KNEW I was not, > > I sectioned off the real me and played a part. > > I did the things I thought were appropriate (and > > I did a lot of reading to find out just exactly > > what they were). I never felt comfortable and > > resented the hell out of having to sublimate my > > feelings to act "normal" (or supposedly normal > > at the time). No matter how much you try to > > experience the workings of your opposite gender, > > no matter how much you read about the way the > > opposite gender acts and thinks, you can't > > actually be that because of how our brains are > > hardwired. And I firmly believe that wiring occurs > > while /in utero /as a reflection of genetics and > > hormonal influences. > > Regards, > MB > > > > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > > > > > Want to spend a few days wearing a female body? Even at > this very shallow > > level, we're dealing with some fairly massive remappings of > the somatic > > map, the motor map, the reflexes, the motor skills, the > somatic connections > > to the pleasure centers... and when all of that was done > you'd have a > > vagina-shaped penis. You wouldn't *be* a woman. You'd > still be attracted > > to girls, and no, that would not make you a lesbian; you'd > be a normal, > > masculine man wearing a female body. Xox yourself, and the > version of you > > wearing a female body will flee from the original body and > pursue Cindy > > Crawford. The xox certainly wouldn't have sex with *you*. Bleah! > > > > Want to actually *be* a female? > > > > Swapping out your Y chromosome for your father's X > chromosome doesn't make > > you a woman. Your neurons are already wired in a male pattern; you > > developed from birth in the masculine pattern. Maybe if > you swapped the > > genes, your neurons would slowly start to rewire themselves > under the > > influence of the new genetic instructions. Maybe you'd end > up epileptic. > > At best you'd end up as a half-assed cross between male > brain and female > > brain. Your brain wouldn't look anything like it would > look if you'd > > developed as a female from the beginning. > > > > Leave aside, for the moment, the question of childhood memories and > > experiences you don't have; the fact that you'll have never > been a little > > girl and won't know how to apply makeup. If you want to be > female, we need > > to give you a female brain; female emotions, female > psychology. We need to > > do this while preserving your memories and skills that were > patterned onto > > male brainware, male emotions and male psychology. Imagine > the task of > > taking an eighth-dan blackbelt in judo, and transforming his body to > > female, while preserving his martial arts skills in such a > way that he is > > still a competitive eighth-dan blackbelt. It's not just > spinal reflexes; > > he has conscious, learned memories for how to fight as a > man that don't > > apply to fighting as a woman. As with motor skills, so > with cognitive > > skills. You know how to operate a male mind; do you know > how to operate a > > female mind? > > > > We're talking about a *massive* transformation here, > billions of neurons > > and trillions of synapses rearranged. Large enough to > disrupt personal > > continuity? If I fell asleep and woke up as a true woman, > not just in body > > alone, I don't think I'd call her "me" - the change is too > sharp. Will > > your brain transform gradually? Hm, now we have the task > of designing the > > intermediate stages and making sure the intermediate stages make > > self-consistent sense. > > > > What happens when, as a woman, you think back to your > memory of looking at > > Cindy Crawford photos as a man? How do you empathize with > your own past > > self of the opposite gender? Do you flee in horror from > the person you > > were? Are all your life's memories distant and alien > things? Or do we > > retain your old male brainware through the transformation > and set up a dual > > male-female structure such that you are currently female > but retain the > > ability to recall and empathise with your past memories as > if they were > > running on the same male brainware that originally laid > them down? Sounds > > complicated, doesn't it? It seems that to transform a male > brain into a > > person who can be a real female, we can't just rewrite you > as a female > > brain; we have to rewrite you as a more complex brain with > an architecture > > that can cross-operate in realtime between male and female > modes, so that a > > female can process male memories with a remembered context > that includes > > the male brainware that laid them down. > > > > To make you female, yet still you, we must step outside the > human space of > > mind designs in order to preserve continuity with your male self. > > > > And then when you go back to being a man, you need to keep > the female > > brainware and dual architecture so that you don't throw up > when you think > > back on all those wonderful sweaty men you had sex with during your > > feminine vacation. > > > > (Assuming you did have sex as a woman, rather than fending > off all comers > > because they didn't look like they were interested in a long-term > > relationship.) > > > > So spending a week as a member of the opposite sex may be a > common sexual > > fantasy, but I wouldn't count on being able to do this six > seconds after > > the Singularity. I would not be surprised to find that it > took three > > subjective centuries before anyone had grown far enough to > attempt a gender > > switch. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From nanogirl at halcyon.com Thu Sep 23 05:00:15 2004 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:00:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter References: <31120-220049322213652336@M2W099.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <005401c4a12a$3a39c760$1db71218@Nano> No, thank you! For everything you do, for us. Gina You go grrryl!! Natasha Original Message: ----------------- From: Gina Miller nanogirl at halcyon.com Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:25:05 -0700 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] Betterhumans Newsletter Message My response is now on the right side (grey column) of the Betterhumans front page: http://www.betterhumans.com/ Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Tech-Aid Advisor http://www.tech-aid.info/t/all-about.html Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 06:34:49 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:34:49 +0200 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <41522941.50108@smigrodzki.org> Message-ID: Right. From the point of view of the identity after the transfer there is no doubt that she is a continuation of the identity before the transfer (if the transfer is well done of course). Only from the point of view of the identity before the transfer there is a doubt whether the identity after the transfer will be a continuation of her. I do believe that any definition of personal identity has to be fuzzy, and when things like personality transfers will be commonplace the meaning associated to words in everyday language will reflect this. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Rafal Smigrodzki Sent: jueves, 23 de septiembre de 2004 3:39 To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) Generally, in social practice, the meaning of terms tends to become set by majorities of users, and "personal identity" will be no exception. If the majority of users decide to accept non-continuous personality transfer (any transfers where information is conveyed, but no specified material objects are) as preserving identity, then this will be the meaning of the term. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.764 / Virus Database: 511 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 06:59:20 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:59:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] ESA focuses its 'Cosmic Vision' Message-ID: <470a3c520409222359862532f@mail.gmail.com> ESA's 'Cosmic Vision 2015-2025' workshop, held at UNESCO in Paris on 15-16 September 2004, showed that Europe is richer than ever in ideas for what should be done in space science in the coming years. Scientists from across Europe brought together their papers outlining what they thought should be the major issues of space exploration a decade from now, on topics such as 'Tracing the origin of the Solar System', 'The evolving violent Universe' and 'Other worlds and life in the Universe'. This workshop was a major step forward in developing the vision of the future for Europe's space science that will be presented by ESA's Science Directorate next spring. ESA's working groups are also working to identify the technology challenges, with the help of the ESA Advanced Concepts office. Following endorsement by ESA's Science Programme Committee in February 2005, the 'Cosmic Vision 2015-2025' document will be produced, laying out the targets for European space science for the decade 2015-2025. Subsequently, once the financial framework is known, the European scientific community will be called upon to produce a plan, including concrete missions and mission scenarios, which will capture as much as possible of the range of scientific themes targeted. ESA's Director of Science, Prof. David Southwood, said: "Europe's funding for space science has always been substantially less than the US but there can be little doubt from the last two days that Europe can claim intellectual parity and, with the right funding, can push back any frontier." http://www.esa.int/esaCP/SEMDH41XDYD_index_0.html From zero.powers at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 07:08:37 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:08:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] the In-Reply-To: <415136B2.9070900@pobox.com> References: <1095812666_127222@mail.cableone.net> <415136B2.9070900@pobox.com> Message-ID: <7a3217050409230008602b929e@mail.gmail.com> Not bad. But personally I'd prefer "Zero's Day." ;) On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 04:24:18 -0400, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > starman2100 at cableone.net wrote: > > > > My suggestions for renaming the "Singularity" are the following... > > > > "Yudkowsky's Folly" > > I was just waiting for someone to say that. How about "International Talk > Like a Pirate Day"? No, wait, that's already taken. Maybe "Day Zero". > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From pharos at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 09:33:42 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:33:42 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: <000101c4a120$d8c12ae0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <20040923013037.40065.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <000101c4a120$d8c12ae0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: Spike Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:53:11 -0700 Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] moveon.org To: ExI chat list > > OK well I hope I live long, but not so long that I begin to mistrust humanity. > > I have a lot of trust in humanity. I trust every human to act in her own > best interest and the best interest of her offspring. I trust people to > be greedy, for I do not see that as a negative thing. I want to see > legal systems set up so that it works best when everyone looks out > for number 1. > > Do think of another word besides misanthrope however. It carries > too many negative connotations to refer to just the reclusive. > The traditional meaning of misanthrope is: "one who hates mankind," 1563, from Gk. misanthropos "hating mankind," from misein "to hate" + anthropos "man." Alternate form misanthropist is attested from 1656. [French, from Greek msanthrpos, hating mankind : mso-, miso- + anthrpos, man.] Like misogynist, woman-hater, or. miser (see: Ebenezer Scrooge from 'A Christmas Carol' by Charles Dickens) But misanthrope does seem to have been weakened in modern usage to: "someone who dislikes or mistrusts people in general and tends to avoid their company" or "A person who expects only the worst from people". W. C. Fields (1880 - 1946) created one of the great American comic personas of the first half of the 20th century - a misanthrope who teetered on the edge of buffoonery but never quite fell in, an egotist blind to his own failings, a charming drunk, and a man who hated women, children and dogs, unless they were the wrong sort of women. The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, was almost certainly as famously misanthropic as his reputation. He wrote that "human existence must be a kind of error." More specifically, he has also been accused of misogyny. There is also the famous satirical play "The Misanthrope" by Moli?re (French 1666) "The Misanthrope, Alceste, impersonated by the author himself, was a character wholly new to the stage, and, is intended to enjoy at least our respect, and even a certain measure of sympathy. He is no vulgar hater of mankind, no churlish or brutal cynic. High and noble in nature, he is alienated from the world by its want of heart, its insincerities, its more or less veiled falsehood, its hypocrisies of complaisance, its thousand petty foibles". "Since I no longer expect anything from mankind except madness, meanness, and mendacity; egotism, cowardice, and self-delusion, I have stopped being a misanthrope". Irving Layton (1912 - ____) Canadian poet, author The Whole Bloody Bird, "Aphs" (1969). Caution:- Regardless of the validity of a misanthropic worldview, those with strongly-held misanthropy often suffer from low self-esteem, depression, and even suicidal tendencies. Best wishes, BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 13:42:41 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:42:41 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A gene that releases stored fat may be the key to a longer life Message-ID: <470a3c5204092306425eab803@mail.gmail.com> >From Technology Review: On his laptop computer, biology professor Leonard Guarente plays a video clip of 29-month-old mice hobbling around a cedar-chip-filled cage. They're scruffy, fat, slow moving, and over the hill by rodent standards. Then he plays a clip of another group of 29-month-old mice. They're svelte, frisky, and scrambling around like adolescents. What's their secret? These mice have eaten about two-thirds as many calories as their portly peers. Not only does the meager diet seem to keep them light in the limbs, but they tend to live 30 percent longer than their well-fed friends and are less likely to contract age-related diseases, such as diabetes and cancer. When Guarente first decided to study the causes of aging in the early 1990s, it was a topic tackled by few researchers. No one knew how to approach it. "The early ideas, which were really quite persistent, were that if you eat less, everything just slows down," says Guarente. But he and two postdoctoral students decided to see if they could find a genetic cause for the phenomenon. In 1996, they found mutant yeast cells that lived 50 percent longer than normal cells and analyzed them, gene by gene. "I said, 'We have a year to work on this, because I'm not sure if there's anything to study,'" Guarente recalls. "We got really interested, and it took a lot more than a year before I was sure we had something. We were seduced." Over the next few years, the researchers tied the unusual longevity in the mutant yeast to one gene: SIR2. In other experiments, they discovered that when they inserted extra copies of SIR2 into normal yeast, it lived longer; when they deleted the gene, the yeast died prematurely. In 2000, the researchers found that a similar gene in worms worked the same way. It was exciting, Guarente says, because yeast and worms are such different creatures that in order to share a similar gene, they must have had a common ancestor. "That means that any descendant of that ancestor, including us, has the same mechanism," he says. At the very least, mice have it. In their Nature article, Guarente and his colleagues reported that when food is scarce, a mouse's genetic equivalent of SIR2, SIRT1, produces a protein that turns off other genes that help store fat. The fat moves into the bloodstream, travels to other tissues, and gets burned. This keeps the mice lean and, for some as yet unknown reason, young looking and healthy into old age. Fr?d?ric Picard, a research scientist who worked with Guarente on the paper, remembers the day that he got clear results from the experiment. "I was very happy, dancing all over. It was great," Picard says. http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/scanlon1004.asp?trk=top From jpnitya at verizon.net Thu Sep 23 14:07:10 2004 From: jpnitya at verizon.net (Joao Magalhaes) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:07:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] A gene that releases stored fat may be the key to a longer life In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092306425eab803@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5204092306425eab803@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040923100144.01c16b70@incoming.verizon.net> Hi, Actually, I found the C/EBP beta mice a lot more exciting. These animals were able to eat more and still feature an extended lifespan. The reference: Chiu, C. H., W. D. Lin, S. Y. Huang, and Y. H. Lee. 2004. Effect of a C/EBP gene replacement on mitochondrial biogenesis in fat cells. Genes Dev, 18:1970-5. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15289464&dopt=Abstract Cheers, Joao From jonkc at att.net Thu Sep 23 16:35:05 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 12:35:05 -0400 Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) References: Message-ID: <00a401c4a18b$505684f0$2dff4d0c@hal2001> "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" > Only from the point of view of the identity before the > transfer there is a doubt whether the identity after > the transfer will be a continuation of her. Forget transfer exotic identity transfer, this situation happens everyday in ordinary life. From the point of view of you as you were yesterday are you the same person today? I can't ask the "you" of yesterday what he thinks, even you can not do that, all I can do is ask the "you" of today and all you can do is ask yourself if you feel like the same person. If the answer is yes then you are, and even if the answer is "no" throwing in an unusual brain copying procedure will not make the answer any more of a "no". John K Clark jonkc at att.net From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 18:06:12 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 11:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A view on cryonics (was Re: [extropy-chat] Bad Forecasts!) In-Reply-To: <00a401c4a18b$505684f0$2dff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20040923180612.74606.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" > > > Only from the point of view of the identity before the > > transfer there is a doubt whether the identity after > > the transfer will be a continuation of her. > > Forget transfer exotic identity transfer, this situation happens > everyday in > ordinary life. From the point of view of you as you were yesterday > are you > the same person today? I can't ask the "you" of yesterday what he > thinks, > even you can not do that, all I can do is ask the "you" of today and > all you > can do is ask yourself if you feel like the same person. If the > answer is > yes then you are, and even if the answer is "no" throwing in an > unusual > brain copying procedure will not make the answer any more of a "no". Gotta contest all this, along with the assertion that sexuality is entirely hard wired. Most of it is hormonal reaction. You take a raging male and shoot him full of estrogen, he's gonna be weeping about how the drapes don't match the furniture in no time. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 23 19:03:19 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:03:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] META: Has anyone had problems subscribing to the list? Message-ID: <165890-22004942319319283@M2W094.mail2web.com> Greetings! If you or someone you know has recently had difficulty subscribing to the list, please let me know. Many thanks, Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From amara.graps at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 21:14:14 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:14:14 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Foundation for the Future Message-ID: This organization is new to me. They have a money, programs, a slick website, workshops, an impressive advisory board, etc. It makes me smile- another map to cover the territory of some of the ideas we hold dear. Excellent. Foundation for the Future http://www.futurefoundation.org/ "Dedicated to the increase and diffusion of knowledge concerning the long-term future of humanity." They have research grants: http://www.futurefoundation.org/grants/grant_index.html "The Foundation For the Future has developed a research grant program to provide financial support to scholars undertaking research that is directly related to better understanding the factors affecting the long-term future of humanity." They have: "Humanity 3000" Seminars http://www.futurefoundation.org/humanity3000/index.html Seeing the Big Picture "The Humanity 3000 program is designed to bring together some of the world's most prominent thinkers to assess the current state of humanity and to identify the most significant factors that may affect the quality of life of the future people of the Earth. The program features a series of seminars and symposia to debate and discuss the critical factors that may have the most effect on the future of humanity." A Prize http://www.futurefoundation.org/kistler/index.html "The purpose of the Kistler Prize is to recognize and reward original work investigating the implications of genetics for human society. It is awarded annually to an individual or research institution whose work has shown rigorous pursuit of scientific research and has made substantive and innovative contributions in this field. Created in 1999, the Prize includes a cash award of US$100,000 and a 180-gram gold medallion. It is named for Walter P. Kistler, President and benefactor of the Foundation For the Future, who personally presents the award each year in a gala banquet and ceremony." "Evolution" Workshops http://www.futurefoundation.org/che/index.html "The Center for Human Evolution hosts a series of workshops related to understanding the evolutionary factors affecting the long-term future of humanity." Amara www.amara.com From amara.graps at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 21:34:26 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:34:26 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time Message-ID: The Long Now Foundation's Bets and Predictions Over Time http://redpuma.net/longview/tree/bets-html/ Very Interesting! Amara From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 23 21:57:34 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 16:57:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040923165456.019b6b08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >The Long Now Foundation's > >Bets and Predictions Over Time > >http://redpuma.net/longview/tree/bets-html/ Ye gobs! Check out this powerful reasoning by: Melody K. Haller Winnings to: Accion International Haller's Argument: Peter's bet blithely refers to overcoming the Hayflick Limit without even considering the bioethical or social implications of doing so. I suspect that it will be broken, like the atom. But this is one of the fundamental building blocks of evolution--what arrogance and self-importance to think that our existence is so important and valuable that we have the right to mess with evolution, or that we have any clue whatsoever as to the implications of doing so. There's a tremendous outcry about cloning, bypassing sexual reproduction, but no one seems to think there's a problem with cracking the code to immortality. The life span-expiration mechanism came into play in evolution about the same time as the infinitely popular sexual reproduction. Unless done in by inclement circumstances, single cell animals such as yeast don't die; they just divide. Ironically, the arising of limited life spans coincided with and seemingly contributed to the rapid proliferation of life on Earth. My nonscientific, intuitive take on this is that evolutionary adaptation takes place more rapidly when the older generation gets out of the way, especially as organisms increase in complexity. Humans may succeed in overcoming self-limiting life spans but the result is likely to be contra-indicatory to the continued success of humans and other life. Further, from a political and compassionate point of view, I am convinced that such an extension of life span would benefit only the privileged and powerful, as it already does. The desire of the self to continue existing is a nearly irresistible force. But it is one thing to extend life by optimizing the care and circumstances of the organism and quite another to extend it by neutralizing inherent cellular functions. I do not doubt that further advances will be made in prolonging longevity and perhaps Peter will prove correct. Luckily, there's yet another expiration barrier that comes into play at about 200 years of age. I am betting money against his prediction purely because I believe that the further radical prolonging of human (and pet) longevity would not benefit the human species, nor the other species who are also rightful inhabitants of this small planet. ================= I have no idea what she means by `there's yet another expiration barrier that comes into play at about 200 years'. This sort of blithering is what we can expect to see in buckfuls, alas. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 23 22:02:03 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:02:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040923170140.01a15938@pop-server.satx.rr.com> And some more great insights: Wei Li (xiaoly) 10/04/02003 07:07 pm Computer misses the spirit dimension of a human Computer works based on its ability of logical calculations. However our human being have other more important abilities in addition to our logical reasoning abilities. We make judgement not just based on the facts or data but also on how we feel about it. That feeling portion and the intuition portion does not come from logical. Our conscious can tap into the universal information field (or God) to absorb directly about unlimited information. A mechanically built computer with no spirit is hard to achieve the human intelligence at this level. From amara.graps at gmail.com Thu Sep 23 22:29:13 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:29:13 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org Message-ID: Trend Ologist trendologist at yahoo.co.uk : >it is the peace of mind that >comes from not being surrounded by those who want a piece of you, who >want to sell you something, want a shoulder to sob on, an empathetic >ear to describe their problems in the smallest detail. Hmm. Misanthrope. When you dream, are people in your dreams? Or only in your nightmares? I'm not a misanthrope. I like human beings. They make me laugh. Every human for me is a potential teacher, but more than that: I need humans, because other humans are my mirror. Since I'm in my body, seeing the universe from the inside of my head, I have to have some feedback to know that I exist and to see my traces and to learn more about my inner and outer universes. The interaction with other humans is a simple extension of "Know Thyself": every action has an effect, so then take a look at one's own actions and notice the consequences. If you can't see the consequences very well, then step in another's shoes to see. "Know Thyself" is my strongest motto, and I need many lifetimes for that. I need child humans in order to keep my life fresh and flexible. I think that it is the duty of every adult to cultivate the childish parts of themself. How can one live a long life without a flexible mind, without a constant reworking of their perspectives? When I'm around children I learn: 1) Life is simple and rather funny, 2) Life is to be played in the moment, and with gusto, 3) Curiosity about how the world works is fun, 4) Fresh, naive, and innocent perspectives are valuable, 5) My own philosophies and ethics should be reevaluated constantly, 6) My knowledge of my inner world should go alot deeper. >BTW, a misanthrope doesn't necessarily hate humanity, he or she might >only mistrust humanity. You have read of hermits residing in remote I don't ever mistrust humanity. Presently I do mistrust my estimation of people though. Once upon a time I changed every aspect of my life (job, country, language) based upon my estimation of a person, and I discovered I was wrong. That's the kind of error that reminds you every waking moment, so I still need time to practice making some right evaluations of my environment in order to trust myself again. But I have alot of hope I will succeed in rebuilding some of my psychic modules. You might like these quotes: http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/Quotes/emotion Amara www.amara.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 23 22:31:08 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040923223108.26487.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > The Long Now Foundation's > > Bets and Predictions Over Time > > http://redpuma.net/longview/tree/bets-html/ > > Very Interesting! Their predictions on the presidential race are contradicting electoral-vote.com's prediction of a Bush domination of the electoral college. This market isn't big enough or diverse enough for an accurate prediction. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 23:42:52 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:42:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040923234252.80730.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No I have good dreams and good friends. It could be I'm seeing the faults in others reflected in myself. It is important to note people subconsciously want to harm each other, which has a moment-to-moment, day-to-day effect, everything from petty squabbles up to the wars we read about every day. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 23 23:51:26 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 00:51:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] moveon.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040923235126.61871.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> It's all a result of my aging, when I was young had thought the world was a bowl of cherries, now see it as a cup of metamucil :-/ Nonetheless, there are too many who view life benignly, then are surprised when things go awry. They think God will protect them. The war will just 'work itself out' , optimists think. 100 years ago people thought democracy would spread, then WWI soured them. BillK wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: Spike Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:53:11 -0700 Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] moveon.org To: ExI chat list > > OK well I hope I live long, but not so long that I begin to mistrust humanity. > > I have a lot of trust in humanity. I trust every human to act in her own > best interest and the best interest of her offspring. I trust people to > be greedy, for I do not see that as a negative thing. I want to see > legal systems set up so that it works best when everyone looks out > for number 1. > > Do think of another word besides misanthrope however. It carries > too many negative connotations to refer to just the reclusive. > The traditional meaning of misanthrope is: "one who hates mankind," 1563, from Gk. misanthropos "hating mankind," from misein "to hate" + anthropos "man." Alternate form misanthropist is attested from 1656. [French, from Greek msanthrpos, hating mankind : mso-, miso- + anthrpos, man.] Like misogynist, woman-hater, or. miser (see: Ebenezer Scrooge from 'A Christmas Carol' by Charles Dickens) But misanthrope does seem to have been weakened in modern usage to: "someone who dislikes or mistrusts people in general and tends to avoid their company" or "A person who expects only the worst from people". W. C. Fields (1880 - 1946) created one of the great American comic personas of the first half of the 20th century - a misanthrope who teetered on the edge of buffoonery but never quite fell in, an egotist blind to his own failings, a charming drunk, and a man who hated women, children and dogs, unless they were the wrong sort of women. The German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer, was almost certainly as famously misanthropic as his reputation. He wrote that "human existence must be a kind of error." More specifically, he has also been accused of misogyny. There is also the famous satirical play "The Misanthrope" by Moli?re (French 1666) "The Misanthrope, Alceste, impersonated by the author himself, was a character wholly new to the stage, and, is intended to enjoy at least our respect, and even a certain measure of sympathy. He is no vulgar hater of mankind, no churlish or brutal cynic. High and noble in nature, he is alienated from the world by its want of heart, its insincerities, its more or less veiled falsehood, its hypocrisies of complaisance, its thousand petty foibles". "Since I no longer expect anything from mankind except madness, meanness, and mendacity; egotism, cowardice, and self-delusion, I have stopped being a misanthrope". Irving Layton (1912 - ____) Canadian poet, author The Whole Bloody Bird, "Aphs" (1969). Caution:- Regardless of the validity of a misanthropic worldview, those with strongly-held misanthropy often suffer from low self-esteem, depression, and even suicidal tendencies. Best wishes, BillK _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 24 00:43:44 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:43:44 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040923223108.26487.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/23/04 15:31) Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Amara Graps wrote: > >> The Long Now Foundation's >> >> Bets and Predictions Over Time >> >> http://redpuma.net/longview/tree/bets-html/ >> >> Very Interesting! > >Their predictions on the presidential race are contradicting >electoral-vote.com's prediction of a Bush domination of the electoral >college. This market isn't big enough or diverse enough for an accurate prediction. Hmm. That site currently predicts 273 Bush, 255 Kerry. That's domination? B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 00:49:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:49:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040924004935.28317.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > (9/23/04 15:31) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > >--- Amara Graps wrote: > > > >> The Long Now Foundation's > >> > >> Bets and Predictions Over Time > >> > >> http://redpuma.net/longview/tree/bets-html/ > >> > >> Very Interesting! > > > >Their predictions on the presidential race are contradicting > >electoral-vote.com's prediction of a Bush domination of the > electoral > >college. This market isn't big enough or diverse enough for an > accurate prediction. > > > Hmm. That site currently predicts 273 Bush, 255 Kerry. That's > domination? That is if the election were held today. Look at the election day final projection: Bush 336, Kerry 192. That is where the trends are heading, and have been heading for the past two months. While I wouldn't call it a Reagan landslide, it is pretty dominating. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hal at finney.org Fri Sep 24 00:16:46 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 17:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time Message-ID: <20040924001646.7CDEB57E2B@finney.org> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Their predictions on the presidential race are contradicting >electoral-vote.com's prediction of a Bush domination of the electoral >college. This market isn't big enough or diverse enough for an accurate prediction. Brent Neal replied: > Hmm. That site currently predicts 273 Bush, 255 Kerry. That's domination? And if you look at yesterday's chart, http://www.electoral-vote.com/sep/sep22.html , you will see that Kerry was ahead. The day before that, http://www.electoral-vote.com/sep/sep21.html , Bush was ahead. Electoral-vote.com is an interesting site but the data is extremely "noisy" and seesaws up and down a great deal. You can't draw a very strong conclusion from where the polls are on any given day. There are also increasing methodological problems with telephone polling. For example, pollsters can't or don't call cell phones. I think it might be against the law. That's a potentially enormous source of bias. Plus with all the telemarketing in recent years it's getting harder to reach people at home. I read recently that land line use has been dropping precipitously. My guess is that we are heading towards another "Dewey Defeats Truman" polling debacle in the next few election cycles. Probably the results at IEM, http://128.255.244.60/graphs/graph_Pres04_WTA.cfm , and TradeSports, http://tradesports.com/jsp/intrade/trading/t_amd.jsp?selConID=11738&z=22/09/2004-18:43:18# , are more meaningful, since people are betting real money there. Hal From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 01:36:29 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 18:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924001646.7CDEB57E2B@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040924013629.33773.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > > Electoral-vote.com is an interesting site but the data is extremely > "noisy" and seesaws up and down a great deal. You can't draw a very > strong conclusion from where the polls are on any given day. I don't. I look at its trending and final vote tally, which there is a link to. > > There are also increasing methodological problems with telephone > polling. > For example, pollsters can't or don't call cell phones. I think it > might be against the law. Cellphone number directories are not public information specifically because the owner pays for every minute, generally speaking, even incoming calls. Land lines don't charge the recipient for the cost of the call, so land lines are legal to telemarket. > That's a potentially enormous source of bias. The bias is that more young people use cellphones. Problem is that young people don't vote as frequently either. A good pollster will have studies done to determine how many people are in such situations and adjust projections accordingly. > Plus with all the telemarketing in recent years it's getting harder > to reach people at home. I read recently that land line use has been > dropping precipitously. My guess is that we are heading towards > another "Dewey Defeats Truman" polling debacle in the next few > election cycles. I think they'll just figure out a way to do it online, or they will tell cellphone providers they can't bill call recipients. The increasing numbers of people on unlimited calling plans is indicative of the trend. > > Probably the results at IEM, > http://128.255.244.60/graphs/graph_Pres04_WTA.cfm , > and TradeSports, > http://tradesports.com/jsp/intrade/trading/t_amd.jsp?selConID=11738&z=22/09/2004-18:43:18# > , > are more meaningful, since people are betting real money there. Betting 'real money' isn't useful information if the number of people involved are too small a statistical sample, which is the same predicament that pollsters are in: they need x number of random contacts to develop an accurate picture of the whole population. 200 people can accurately tell you the opinions of a 20,000 person population. The smaller sample size you use, the less accurate your projection (hence plus or minus 4% error rates). The less random your sample, the less accurate your projection, hence internet polls. If only 200 people are involved in your futures market, they are still only going to tell you the accurate opinions of 20,000 people who are accurate represented by the cross section of those 200. What would be really useful is to sell virtual votes for Bush and Kerry on eBay, supported by an ad campaign to promote the auctions. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 02:09:21 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:39:21 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Ultimate Anti-Drug Message-ID: <710b78fc04092319097edfa29f@mail.gmail.com> A drug to stop people experiencing narcotic-induced euphoria? Well, ok I guess. But the idea of giving this to kids (ie: people not able to give informed consent) is totally crap. But then I don't support genetic modification of kids (or of embryos destined to become kids) either (except in cases where to not do so would be clearly harmful). ----- The Ultimate Anti-Drug By David Borden, AlterNet. Posted August 10, 2004 http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/19520/ Biotech corporations are formulating the drug to end all drugs ? a vaccine against the 'disease' of drug-induced euphoria. A government-convened panel of scientists in the UK is considering what the Independent properly termed "a radical scheme" ? a proposal to use vaccines, currently under development by pharmaceutical corporations, to immunize children against "euphoria" from drugs such as heroin, cocaine and nicotine. Panel members say the plan would target children who are at risk of becoming drug users in the future. They have not said how it would be determined who is at risk. It's only a matter of time until some of our own drug war zealots or anti-drug mad scientists take this idea up here in the US. An anti-drug vaccine differs fundamentally from vaccines designed to protect individuals from diseases like measles, the example a committee member raised to the Independent's reporter. Measles is a disease that no one, or virtually no one, wants to catch. It is communicable and could therefore spread to large numbers of people if unchecked. Perhaps measles vaccinations should not be compulsory, if we believe in freedom of choice. But the wisdom of such vaccinations is clear, and it's legitimate for society to encourage and make them widely available. An anti-drug vaccine, on the other hand, is designed to produce a permanent chemical alteration to an individual's brain chemistry to disable one's ability to experience certain mind states that humans are designed to be able to experience ? and which despite their downsides many people desire to experience. Though heroin and cocaine are illegal, that may not always be the case, and nicotine is legal. Legal or not, it is the individual's human right to seek such experiences. But even if one disagrees with that last statement, to alter a human being's brain and body to make the experience impossible, forever, is an extremist approach. The "side effects" of such an alteration are hard to predict. Heroin is an opiate that was developed for pain control, for which it is still used in some countries. It is derived from morphine and hence fundamentally similar to many other pain medicines. Would a heroin vaccine interfere with the ability of a pain patient to gain relief through other opiate medications? Cocaine is also used as a medicine, not for such a large number of patients as the opiates, but important for the ones for whom it is used. Would a cocaine vaccine interfere with a patient's ability to gain those medical benefits? Would it interfere with the potency of similar drugs like novocaine? Does nicotine have current or potential medical uses that would be stymied by a vaccine? Not necessarily ? the physiological processes occurring in pain relief are not identical to those involved in opiate use to produce, euphoria, for example, or for relieving the cravings of an addiction. Nor, however, are they entirely dissimilar ? it's the same substance, after all. How can we determine in advance, with surety, that no such problems will arise? The anti-drug vaccine is a fundamentally different proposition in this respect as well, for at least two reasons. One is that it is not necessary, as effective alternatives for reducing or avoiding the harms that sometimes from drug addiction are already available ? moderation, harm reduction, and abstinence. The other reason is the sheer scale, in time and in numbers of people, that would be needed to thoroughly assess an anti-drug vaccine's risks and effects. It's not something that can be accomplished in one or even 10 years, with any reasonable number of people. Take the number of people needed for a proper drug trial. Then divide that by the fraction of them who statistically are likely to suffer from serious medical conditions in the future that require with opiates (a larger number) or cocaine (a smaller number). That much larger number of test subjects is the minimum number needed to ensure that the subset of the test subjects who will develop severe chronic pain and other serious conditions in the future will be available and still part of the study. There would need to be an ample number of them requiring heavy use of opiates. And the time scale is a lifetime, as the subjects would receive the vaccinations as children while the drugs are most often needed as medicines late in life. We're not talking thousands of test subjects, nor tens of thousands. We are talking about at least hundreds of thousands and probably millions or more ? a substantial chunk of a generation ? with statistically significant results not possible for the better part of a century, to determine with any degree of confidence that such vaccines will not interfere with important medical treatments later in life. If informed, consenting adults want to take an anti-drug vaccine, and if it could work on adults, maybe they should have that right. But the government should play no role in sponsoring, nor even encouraging, such a practice. An anti-drug vaccine for children is such a bad idea that it isn't even worth considering. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 24 02:19:32 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:19:32 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924001646.7CDEB57E2B@finney.org> Message-ID: (9/23/04 17:16) "Hal Finney" wrote: >There are also increasing methodological problems with telephone polling. >For example, pollsters can't or don't call cell phones. I think it >might be against the law. That's a potentially enormous source of bias. >Plus with all the telemarketing in recent years it's getting harder >to reach people at home. I read recently that land line use has been >dropping precipitously. My guess is that we are heading towards another >"Dewey Defeats Truman" polling debacle in the next few election cycles. I would tend to agree. I had this discussion with a co-worker a few days ago, in fact. There is a large portion of the population that has no land-line phone, or that never answers their land-line except when CallerID says its safe. Pollsters aren't getting these people, who seem to be younger and more progressive. While this won't affect the rural states' poll numbers, the more urban states in the battleground, especially those with a young, educated workforce (Arizona, Wisconsin, &c.) could be seriously skewed. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 24 02:20:41 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:20:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924004935.28317.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/23/04 17:49) Mike Lorrey wrote: >That is if the election were held today. Look at the election day final >projection: Bush 336, Kerry 192. That is where the trends are heading, >and have been heading for the past two months. While I wouldn't call it >a Reagan landslide, it is pretty dominating. I don't have to tell you the dangers of extrapolating data with as much scatter as the polls have, do I? I didn't think so. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 24 02:27:27 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:27:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924013629.33773.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/23/04 18:36) Mike Lorrey wrote: >The bias is that more young people use cellphones. Problem is that >young people don't vote as frequently either. A good pollster will have >studies done to determine how many people are in such situations and >adjust projections accordingly. You're using two different definitions of 'young.' 18-25 year olds don't vote frequently. However, the 'young' people who are undersampled are the 25-35 year olds who tend to be much more politically active. If the pollsters are adjusting their models along your lines, the prediction would be even -more- skewed than it would be otherwise. And I wouldn't count the 18-25 yr olds out in this election. One thing that we've seen this cycle is that there is an abnormally high interest in the elections, due to the asininity of the Bush administration. The young folks who have no desire to be drafted will turn out. The Intervarsity Campus Crusader Hitler Youth types will turn out to "cast a vote for Jesus" (that was on a College Republicans' flyer, btw.) The progressive kids who spent their college summer pounding turf for Howard Dean will turn out. We'll see which camp is largest, but I really don't think that the youngest set is going to play hooky this time around. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 24 05:24:44 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Ultimate Anti-Drug In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04092319097edfa29f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040924052444.79351.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> The idea is to vaccinate against disease early in life, while the drugs might be needed late in life? Anti-anti-drug. Possibly it could even be developed during the trial of the original anti-drug - biotech moves just that fast these days. --- Emlyn wrote: > A drug to stop people experiencing narcotic-induced > euphoria? Well, ok > I guess. But the idea of giving this to kids (ie: > people not able to > give informed consent) is totally crap. But then I > don't support > genetic modification of kids (or of embryos destined > to become kids) > either (except in cases where to not do so would be > clearly harmful). > > ----- > The Ultimate Anti-Drug > By David Borden, AlterNet. Posted August 10, 2004 > > http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/19520/ > > Biotech corporations are formulating the drug to end > all drugs ??? a > vaccine against the 'disease' of drug-induced > euphoria. > > A government-convened panel of scientists in the UK > is considering > what the Independent properly termed "a radical > scheme" ??? a proposal > to use vaccines, currently under development by > pharmaceutical > corporations, to immunize children against > "euphoria" from drugs such > as heroin, cocaine and nicotine. Panel members say > the plan would > target children who are at risk of becoming drug > users in the future. > They have not said how it would be determined who is > at risk. > > It's only a matter of time until some of our own > drug war zealots or > anti-drug mad scientists take this idea up here in > the US. > > An anti-drug vaccine differs fundamentally from > vaccines designed to > protect individuals from diseases like measles, the > example a > committee member raised to the Independent's > reporter. Measles is a > disease that no one, or virtually no one, wants to > catch. It is > communicable and could therefore spread to large > numbers of people if > unchecked. Perhaps measles vaccinations should not > be compulsory, if > we believe in freedom of choice. But the wisdom of > such vaccinations > is clear, and it's legitimate for society to > encourage and make them > widely available. > > An anti-drug vaccine, on the other hand, is designed > to produce a > permanent chemical alteration to an individual's > brain chemistry to > disable one's ability to experience certain mind > states that humans > are designed to be able to experience ??? and which > despite their > downsides many people desire to experience. Though > heroin and cocaine > are illegal, that may not always be the case, and > nicotine is legal. > Legal or not, it is the individual's human right to > seek such > experiences. But even if one disagrees with that > last statement, to > alter a human being's brain and body to make the > experience > impossible, forever, is an extremist approach. > > The "side effects" of such an alteration are hard to > predict. Heroin > is an opiate that was developed for pain control, > for which it is > still used in some countries. It is derived from > morphine and hence > fundamentally similar to many other pain medicines. > Would a heroin > vaccine interfere with the ability of a pain patient > to gain relief > through other opiate medications? > > Cocaine is also used as a medicine, not for such a > large number of > patients as the opiates, but important for the ones > for whom it is > used. Would a cocaine vaccine interfere with a > patient's ability to > gain those medical benefits? Would it interfere with > the potency of > similar drugs like novocaine? Does nicotine have > current or potential > medical uses that would be stymied by a vaccine? > > Not necessarily ??? the physiological processes > occurring in pain relief > are not identical to those involved in opiate use to > produce, > euphoria, for example, or for relieving the cravings > of an addiction. > Nor, however, are they entirely dissimilar ??? it's > the same substance, > after all. How can we determine in advance, with > surety, that no such > problems will arise? > > The anti-drug vaccine is a fundamentally different > proposition in this > respect as well, for at least two reasons. One is > that it is not > necessary, as effective alternatives for reducing or > avoiding the > harms that sometimes from drug addiction are already > available ??? > moderation, harm reduction, and abstinence. > > The other reason is the sheer scale, in time and in > numbers of people, > that would be needed to thoroughly assess an > anti-drug vaccine's risks > and effects. It's not something that can be > accomplished in one or > even 10 years, with any reasonable number of people. > > Take the number of people needed for a proper drug > trial. Then divide > that by the fraction of them who statistically are > likely to suffer > from serious medical conditions in the future that > require with > opiates (a larger number) or cocaine (a smaller > number). That much > larger number of test subjects is the minimum number > needed to ensure > that the subset of the test subjects who will > develop severe chronic > pain and other serious conditions in the future will > be available and > still part of the study. There would need to be an > ample number of > them requiring heavy use of opiates. And the time > scale is a lifetime, > as the subjects would receive the vaccinations as > children while the > drugs are most often needed as medicines late in > life. > > We're not talking thousands of test subjects, nor > tens of thousands. > We are talking about at least hundreds of thousands > and probably > millions or more ??? a substantial chunk of a > generation ??? with > statistically significant results not possible for > the better part of > a century, to determine with any degree of > confidence that such > vaccines will not interfere with important medical > treatments later in > life. > > If informed, consenting adults want to take an > anti-drug vaccine, and > if it could work on adults, maybe they should have > that right. But the > government should play no role in sponsoring, nor > even encouraging, > such a practice. An anti-drug vaccine for children > is such a bad idea > that it isn't even worth considering. > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software > * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 06:00:09 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:30:09 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Ultimate Anti-Drug In-Reply-To: <20040924052444.79351.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <710b78fc04092319097edfa29f@mail.gmail.com> <20040924052444.79351.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04092323006a903b5f@mail.gmail.com> I wonder if you can take this stuff as an adult. I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, but being able to rid yourself of the ability to feel irrational euphoria might be quite appealing to some transhumanists. Certainly it'd be another item for the transhuman morphological toolkit. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > The idea is to vaccinate against disease early in > life, while the drugs might be needed late in life? > Anti-anti-drug. Possibly it could even be developed > during the trial of the original anti-drug - biotech > moves just that fast these days. > > > > --- Emlyn wrote: > > > A drug to stop people experiencing narcotic-induced > > euphoria? Well, ok > > I guess. But the idea of giving this to kids (ie: > > people not able to > > give informed consent) is totally crap. But then I > > don't support > > genetic modification of kids (or of embryos destined > > to become kids) > > either (except in cases where to not do so would be > > clearly harmful). > > > > ----- > > The Ultimate Anti-Drug > > By David Borden, AlterNet. Posted August 10, 2004 > > > > http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/19520/ > > > > Biotech corporations are formulating the drug to end > > all drugs ? a > > vaccine against the 'disease' of drug-induced > > euphoria. > > > > A government-convened panel of scientists in the UK > > is considering > > what the Independent properly termed "a radical > > scheme" ? a proposal > > to use vaccines, currently under development by > > pharmaceutical > > corporations, to immunize children against > > "euphoria" from drugs such > > as heroin, cocaine and nicotine. Panel members say > > the plan would > > target children who are at risk of becoming drug > > users in the future. > > They have not said how it would be determined who is > > at risk. > > > > It's only a matter of time until some of our own > > drug war zealots or > > anti-drug mad scientists take this idea up here in > > the US. > > > > An anti-drug vaccine differs fundamentally from > > vaccines designed to > > protect individuals from diseases like measles, the > > example a > > committee member raised to the Independent's > > reporter. Measles is a > > disease that no one, or virtually no one, wants to > > catch. It is > > communicable and could therefore spread to large > > numbers of people if > > unchecked. Perhaps measles vaccinations should not > > be compulsory, if > > we believe in freedom of choice. But the wisdom of > > such vaccinations > > is clear, and it's legitimate for society to > > encourage and make them > > widely available. > > > > An anti-drug vaccine, on the other hand, is designed > > to produce a > > permanent chemical alteration to an individual's > > brain chemistry to > > disable one's ability to experience certain mind > > states that humans > > are designed to be able to experience ? and which > > despite their > > downsides many people desire to experience. Though > > heroin and cocaine > > are illegal, that may not always be the case, and > > nicotine is legal. > > Legal or not, it is the individual's human right to > > seek such > > experiences. But even if one disagrees with that > > last statement, to > > alter a human being's brain and body to make the > > experience > > impossible, forever, is an extremist approach. > > > > The "side effects" of such an alteration are hard to > > predict. Heroin > > is an opiate that was developed for pain control, > > for which it is > > still used in some countries. It is derived from > > morphine and hence > > fundamentally similar to many other pain medicines. > > Would a heroin > > vaccine interfere with the ability of a pain patient > > to gain relief > > through other opiate medications? > > > > Cocaine is also used as a medicine, not for such a > > large number of > > patients as the opiates, but important for the ones > > for whom it is > > used. Would a cocaine vaccine interfere with a > > patient's ability to > > gain those medical benefits? Would it interfere with > > the potency of > > similar drugs like novocaine? Does nicotine have > > current or potential > > medical uses that would be stymied by a vaccine? > > > > Not necessarily ? the physiological processes > > occurring in pain relief > > are not identical to those involved in opiate use to > > produce, > > euphoria, for example, or for relieving the cravings > > of an addiction. > > Nor, however, are they entirely dissimilar ? it's > > the same substance, > > after all. How can we determine in advance, with > > surety, that no such > > problems will arise? > > > > The anti-drug vaccine is a fundamentally different > > proposition in this > > respect as well, for at least two reasons. One is > > that it is not > > necessary, as effective alternatives for reducing or > > avoiding the > > harms that sometimes from drug addiction are already > > available ? > > moderation, harm reduction, and abstinence. > > > > The other reason is the sheer scale, in time and in > > numbers of people, > > that would be needed to thoroughly assess an > > anti-drug vaccine's risks > > and effects. It's not something that can be > > accomplished in one or > > even 10 years, with any reasonable number of people. > > > > Take the number of people needed for a proper drug > > trial. Then divide > > that by the fraction of them who statistically are > > likely to suffer > > from serious medical conditions in the future that > > require with > > opiates (a larger number) or cocaine (a smaller > > number). That much > > larger number of test subjects is the minimum number > > needed to ensure > > that the subset of the test subjects who will > > develop severe chronic > > pain and other serious conditions in the future will > > be available and > > still part of the study. There would need to be an > > ample number of > > them requiring heavy use of opiates. And the time > > scale is a lifetime, > > as the subjects would receive the vaccinations as > > children while the > > drugs are most often needed as medicines late in > > life. > > > > We're not talking thousands of test subjects, nor > > tens of thousands. > > We are talking about at least hundreds of thousands > > and probably > > millions or more ? a substantial chunk of a > > generation ? with > > statistically significant results not possible for > > the better part of > > a century, to determine with any degree of > > confidence that such > > vaccines will not interfere with important medical > > treatments later in > > life. > > > > If informed, consenting adults want to take an > > anti-drug vaccine, and > > if it could work on adults, maybe they should have > > that right. But the > > government should play no role in sponsoring, nor > > even encouraging, > > such a practice. An anti-drug vaccine for children > > is such a bad idea > > that it isn't even worth considering. > > > > -- > > Emlyn > > > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software > > * > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From amara.graps at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 06:42:10 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:42:10 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Online books by von Mises Message-ID: (I was considering buying a couple of these in paper, when I see that they are online..) http://www.mises.org/misesbooks.asp Amara From amara at amara.com Fri Sep 24 08:24:32 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:24:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: >From: Mike Lorrey , Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:41:32 -0700 (PDT) > >--- Amara Graps wrote: > >> Kerry would win in a landslide. >> >> http://www.iht.com/articles/537873.html >> >> (not because he is that popular, but because Bush is that unpopular) > >If foreigners could vote in the US, we'd have lost the Cold War, we'd >be a communist nation, and the USSR would be the sole superpower in the >world. That is not a good reflection of the wisdom of the rest of the world. http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/article.print?id=4559 "US policy now affects every citizen on the planet. So we should all have a say in who gets to the White House" by Jonathan Freedland The Guardian, 22 September 2004 an excerpt: "Today, people far from America's shores do indeed pay for the consequences of US actions. The citizens of Iraq are the obvious example, living in a land where a vile dictatorship was removed only for a military occupation and unspeakable violence to be unleashed in its place. The would-be voters of downtown Baghdad might like a say in whether their country would be better off with US forces gone. Perhaps John Kerry's Monday promise to start bringing the troops home, beginning next summer, would appeal to them. But they have no voice. It's not just those who live under US military rule who might wish to choose the commander-in-chief. Everyone from Madrid to Bali is now drawn into the "war on terror" declared by President Bush. We might believe that war is being badly mishandled - that US actions are aggravating the threat rather than reducing it - and that we or our neighbours will eventually pay the price for those errors. We might fear that the Bush policy is inflaming al-Qaida, making it more not less likely to strike in our towns and cities, but right now we cannot do anything to change that policy. Instead we have to watch the US campaign on TV, with our fingers crossed - impotent spectators of a contest that could shake up our lives. (Those who feel the same way about Tony Blair should remember: at least we will get a vote.) So we ought to hold America to its word. When George Bush spoke to the UN yesterday, he invoked democracy in almost every paragraph, citing America's declaration of independence which insists on the equal worth of every human being. Well, surely equal worth means an equal say in the decisions that affect the entire human race. That 1776 declaration is worth rereading. Its very first sentence demands "a decent respect to the opinions of mankind": isn't that exactly what the world would like from America today? The document goes on to excoriate the distant emperor George for his recklessness, insisting that authority is only legitimate when it enjoys "the consent of the governed". As the world's sole superpower, the US now has global authority. But where is the consent? By this logic, it is not a declaration of independence the world would be making. On the contrary, in seeking a say in US elections, the human race would be making a declaration of dependence - acknowledging that Washington's decisions affect us more than those taken in our own capitals. In contrast with those founding Americans, the new declaration would argue that, in order to take charge of our destiny, we do not need to break free from the imperial power - we need to tame it." -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 09:01:36 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:01:36 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Breakthrough eye cell creation in lab Message-ID: <470a3c5204092402012eae339b@mail.gmail.com> >From TVNZ: US scientists today announced a breakthrough in human embryonic stem cell research they said could produce a treatment in two years for a type of blindness afflicting those over 60. In an article published on the website of the Journal of Cloning and Stem Cells (JCSC), they said they had, using stem cells, cultivated retinal cells in the laboratory. The epithelium pigment cells of the retina, they said, are essential to vision because they ensure the correct functioning of the eye's light receptors. Deterioration of the epithelium pigment provokes a progressive destruction of the receptors which often leads to macular degeneration, a principal cause of blindness in those over 60 and for which no effective treatment exists. More than 30 million people worldwide, including nine million in the United States, suffer from macular degeneration, said the article. "Retinal cell transplants could be one of the first applications of human embryonic stem cell technology," said Robert Lanza, director of Advanced Cell Technology, a biotechnology firm in Worcester, Massachusetts, and co-author of the JCSC article. "With the right resources, we hope to get this into the clinic in one to two years." "This very exciting paper describes the first derivation of human cells that will be used to treat some forms of blindness," said Ian Wilmut, JCSC editor-in-chief and head of the Department of Gene Expression and Development at the Roslin Institute, the Scottish firm that pioneered animal cloning. http://tvnz.co.nz/view/no_keyword_story_skin/449515?format=html From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Sep 24 13:01:38 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:01:38 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Ultimate Anti-Drug In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04092323006a903b5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <710b78fc04092319097edfa29f@mail.gmail.com> <20040924052444.79351.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc04092323006a903b5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The article posted seems a little misleading. I was under the impression that scientists were not trying to change the fundamental brain chemistry of people. Rather they were trying to generate antibody reactions to specific drugs (e.g., cocaine, nicotine). Basically the hope is that antibodies will bind to specific drugs and make them too big to pass the blood-brain barrier. This technique doesn't change the brains of the users, so the drug cravings if they exist will continue as usual. There seem to be real problems in generating enough antibodies in the blood. So the basic effect is to mute, not remove the effectiveness of drug taking. This technique is being designed (at least in the US) with the hope of helping adult drug users, as an adjunct to on going therapy. I would be interested if people know more about this. Here are some interesting articles: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12669472 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14761239 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12901575 best, patrick On 24 Sep 2004, at 08:00, Emlyn wrote: > I wonder if you can take this stuff as an adult. I wouldn't touch it > with a barge pole, but being able to rid yourself of the ability to > feel irrational euphoria might be quite appealing to some > transhumanists. Certainly it'd be another item for the transhuman > morphological toolkit. > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 22:24:44 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes > wrote: >> The idea is to vaccinate against disease early in >> life, while the drugs might be needed late in life? >> Anti-anti-drug. Possibly it could even be developed >> during the trial of the original anti-drug - biotech >> moves just that fast these days. >> >> >> >> --- Emlyn wrote: >> >>> A drug to stop people experiencing narcotic-induced >>> euphoria? Well, ok >>> I guess. But the idea of giving this to kids (ie: >>> people not able to >>> give informed consent) is totally crap. But then I >>> don't support >>> genetic modification of kids (or of embryos destined >>> to become kids) >>> either (except in cases where to not do so would be >>> clearly harmful). >>> >>> ----- >>> The Ultimate Anti-Drug >>> By David Borden, AlterNet. Posted August 10, 2004 >>> >>> http://www.alternet.org/drugreporter/19520/ >>> >>> Biotech corporations are formulating the drug to end >>> all drugs ? a >>> vaccine against the 'disease' of drug-induced >>> euphoria. >>> >>> A government-convened panel of scientists in the UK >>> is considering >>> what the Independent properly termed "a radical >>> scheme" ? a proposal >>> to use vaccines, currently under development by >>> pharmaceutical >>> corporations, to immunize children against >>> "euphoria" from drugs such >>> as heroin, cocaine and nicotine. Panel members say >>> the plan would >>> target children who are at risk of becoming drug >>> users in the future. >>> They have not said how it would be determined who is >>> at risk. >>> >>> It's only a matter of time until some of our own >>> drug war zealots or >>> anti-drug mad scientists take this idea up here in >>> the US. >>> >>> An anti-drug vaccine differs fundamentally from >>> vaccines designed to >>> protect individuals from diseases like measles, the >>> example a >>> committee member raised to the Independent's >>> reporter. Measles is a >>> disease that no one, or virtually no one, wants to >>> catch. It is >>> communicable and could therefore spread to large >>> numbers of people if >>> unchecked. Perhaps measles vaccinations should not >>> be compulsory, if >>> we believe in freedom of choice. But the wisdom of >>> such vaccinations >>> is clear, and it's legitimate for society to >>> encourage and make them >>> widely available. >>> >>> An anti-drug vaccine, on the other hand, is designed >>> to produce a >>> permanent chemical alteration to an individual's >>> brain chemistry to >>> disable one's ability to experience certain mind >>> states that humans >>> are designed to be able to experience ? and which >>> despite their >>> downsides many people desire to experience. Though >>> heroin and cocaine >>> are illegal, that may not always be the case, and >>> nicotine is legal. >>> Legal or not, it is the individual's human right to >>> seek such >>> experiences. But even if one disagrees with that >>> last statement, to >>> alter a human being's brain and body to make the >>> experience >>> impossible, forever, is an extremist approach. >>> >>> The "side effects" of such an alteration are hard to >>> predict. Heroin >>> is an opiate that was developed for pain control, >>> for which it is >>> still used in some countries. It is derived from >>> morphine and hence >>> fundamentally similar to many other pain medicines. >>> Would a heroin >>> vaccine interfere with the ability of a pain patient >>> to gain relief >>> through other opiate medications? >>> >>> Cocaine is also used as a medicine, not for such a >>> large number of >>> patients as the opiates, but important for the ones >>> for whom it is >>> used. Would a cocaine vaccine interfere with a >>> patient's ability to >>> gain those medical benefits? Would it interfere with >>> the potency of >>> similar drugs like novocaine? Does nicotine have >>> current or potential >>> medical uses that would be stymied by a vaccine? >>> >>> Not necessarily ? the physiological processes >>> occurring in pain relief >>> are not identical to those involved in opiate use to >>> produce, >>> euphoria, for example, or for relieving the cravings >>> of an addiction. >>> Nor, however, are they entirely dissimilar ? it's >>> the same substance, >>> after all. How can we determine in advance, with >>> surety, that no such >>> problems will arise? >>> >>> The anti-drug vaccine is a fundamentally different >>> proposition in this >>> respect as well, for at least two reasons. One is >>> that it is not >>> necessary, as effective alternatives for reducing or >>> avoiding the >>> harms that sometimes from drug addiction are already >>> available ? >>> moderation, harm reduction, and abstinence. >>> >>> The other reason is the sheer scale, in time and in >>> numbers of people, >>> that would be needed to thoroughly assess an >>> anti-drug vaccine's risks >>> and effects. It's not something that can be >>> accomplished in one or >>> even 10 years, with any reasonable number of people. >>> >>> Take the number of people needed for a proper drug >>> trial. Then divide >>> that by the fraction of them who statistically are >>> likely to suffer >>> from serious medical conditions in the future that >>> require with >>> opiates (a larger number) or cocaine (a smaller >>> number). That much >>> larger number of test subjects is the minimum number >>> needed to ensure >>> that the subset of the test subjects who will >>> develop severe chronic >>> pain and other serious conditions in the future will >>> be available and >>> still part of the study. There would need to be an >>> ample number of >>> them requiring heavy use of opiates. And the time >>> scale is a lifetime, >>> as the subjects would receive the vaccinations as >>> children while the >>> drugs are most often needed as medicines late in >>> life. >>> >>> We're not talking thousands of test subjects, nor >>> tens of thousands. >>> We are talking about at least hundreds of thousands >>> and probably >>> millions or more ? a substantial chunk of a >>> generation ? with >>> statistically significant results not possible for >>> the better part of >>> a century, to determine with any degree of >>> confidence that such >>> vaccines will not interfere with important medical >>> treatments later in >>> life. >>> >>> If informed, consenting adults want to take an >>> anti-drug vaccine, and >>> if it could work on adults, maybe they should have >>> that right. But the >>> government should play no role in sponsoring, nor >>> even encouraging, >>> such a practice. An anti-drug vaccine for children >>> is such a bad idea >>> that it isn't even worth considering. >>> >>> -- >>> Emlyn >>> >>> http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software >>> * >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From betalimit at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 13:33:00 2004 From: betalimit at yahoo.com (tim liverance) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:33:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: <000301c4a23b$04263700$80979e18@bypassu23bqy5h> Beyond Quantum Computing Message Board. Over 400 of the top scientists,finding and Solving the solotions of tommorow today. Nanotechnology quantum physics and other scientific breakthroughs are doubling each day, Smaller,faster,cheaper. There is only one way to keep up. follow the link = http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Quantumcomputing/ From amara at amara.com Fri Sep 24 14:48:08 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:48:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Petition to Activate the '.iq' Country Code for Iraq Message-ID: You can sign this petition online -- Amara http://www.DialogueChannel.com/iraq_petition.htm To: All Internet governing authorities, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA), the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN), the U.S. Department of Commerce, the U.S. Department of State, the Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), the United Nations, UNESCO, the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), the Iraqi Governing Council, the Iraq Ministry of Communications, the Embassy of Iraq, all Iraqi Internet companies and organizations, and all members of the Iraq reconstruction community The Iraq Internet Petition: 1. Iraq and its people are entitled to their own country code Top Level Domain on the Internet. 2. In 1997, the Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) assigned ".iq" as Iraq's Internet country code (for example, "www.NationalLibrary.iq"). 3. However, Iraq's Internet country code was abruptly deactivated before the 2003 Iraq War. Without good reason, it is still not operational in spite of increased Internet usage by Iraqis around the world. 4. Iraq needs its own Internet country code in order to join the other nations of the world as an equal on the Internet. The Iraqi people must be able to participate in Internet communications and the Internet economies under their own national identity. 5. Therefore, I urge all parties to engage in an open process to immediately activate Iraq's country code Top Level Domain on the Internet. The .iq domain must be assigned to a trusted Internet registrar so that all Iraqis and all Iraqi organizations may have a proper Iraqi Internet address. From amara at amara.com Fri Sep 24 15:13:03 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:13:03 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: >--- Amara Graps wrote: >> "US policy now affects every citizen on the planet. So we should all >> have a say in who gets to the White House" >> >> by Jonathan Freedland >> The Guardian, 22 September 2004 Martin Striz: >So can we vote on Al Qaeda leadership? ... If they claimed to have a democracy, then why not? (Last I heard, they were making no such claim) It would be useful to know what rough number are the Al Qaeda, and then compare to the population of the rest of the world. ... You may or may not have heard that the US Federal Government has begun restricting international access to the site to help overseas absentee voters cast ballots on this upcoming Federal Election. Here is a group that has worked around that: http://register.verifiedvoting.org/ (so at least overseas US citizens can vote in the US elections) Amara Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq: 12,927 - 14,981 http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 14:54:47 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040924145447.36719.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > administration. The young folks who have no desire to be drafted > will turn out. Sorry, but anyone with a brain knows that a) Bush is against a draft, and the military has said it has no need for one and doesn't want one, and b) the only people sponsoring the currently dead draft bill in congress are all Democrats, ergo c) a Kerry administration is more likely to institute a draft. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 14:57:25 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 07:57:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040924145725.60110.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > >From: Mike Lorrey , Tue, 21 Sep 2004 04:41:32 > -0700 (PDT) > > > >--- Amara Graps wrote: > > > >> Kerry would win in a landslide. > >> > >> http://www.iht.com/articles/537873.html > >> > >> (not because he is that popular, but because Bush is that > unpopular) > > > >If foreigners could vote in the US, we'd have lost the Cold War, > we'd > >be a communist nation, and the USSR would be the sole superpower in > the > >world. That is not a good reflection of the wisdom of the rest of > the world. > > > http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/article.print?id=4559 > > "US policy now affects every citizen on the planet. So we should all > have a say in who gets to the White House" Hey, y'all would adopt our Bill of Rights (including the 2nd amend), I might consider it. Fat chance of THAT happening, though. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Sep 24 15:09:49 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 08:09:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time References: <20040924145447.36719.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0e3b01c4a248$892317e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Mike Lorrey" > Sorry, but anyone with a brain knows that a) Bush is against a draft, > and the military has said it has no need for one and doesn't want one, > and b) the only people sponsoring the currently dead draft bill in > congress are all Democrats, ergo c) a Kerry administration is more > likely to institute a draft. Speaking of brains, I never miss reading Mark Morford who writes for the San Francisco Chronicle. There are still some good columnists around - but it seems so many of them these days are bland-as-pabulum. Morford writes wonderful stuff, and with refreshing outrage: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2004/09/24/notes092404.DTL&type=printable Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 16:11:42 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:11:42 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe Message-ID: <470a3c52040924091113aba53@mail.gmail.com> >From Anders Sandberg's blog, a report on the on the recent conference Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe, a European initiative similar to the NBIC initiative in the US. Sandberg is quite critical: "The quick of it: if the US is doing converging technologies, then the EU must of course do the same. But of course in a more ethical way, just to keep that technology from doing something unexpected. If we can get the public involved, then maybe we can avoid stupid polarizations, misuse and make the technology more human, softer, more european. But I believe it when I see it, because the highminded ideas of the report underlying the conference will be filtered through layer after layer of EU administration and agendas. In the end the result might well be completely opposite to the aim? The only mention of transhumanism is indeed a dismissive mention of the US report as causing alarms by being too transhumanistic..." http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2004/09/prometheus_bound_in_red_tape.html From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 24 16:25:34 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <000301c4a23b$04263700$80979e18@bypassu23bqy5h> Message-ID: <20040924162534.61427.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Umm...give the spam-flavored grammar and presentation, why should we not conclude this is more likely to actually be an advertising list for a related corporation? --- tim liverance wrote: > > Beyond Quantum Computing Message Board. > Over 400 of the top scientists,finding and Solving > the solotions of > tommorow today. Nanotechnology quantum physics and > other scientific > breakthroughs are doubling each day, > Smaller,faster,cheaper. There > is > only one way to keep up. > follow the link = > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Quantumcomputing/ > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Sep 24 16:56:50 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 09:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040924165650.65792.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/article.print?id=4559 > > "US policy now affects every citizen on the planet. > So we should all > have a say in who gets to the White House" > > by Jonathan Freedland > The Guardian, 22 September 2004 The Iraqis have their own elections scheduled. European and other citizens can petition their governments to remove their forces from Iraq if they believe they are being treated unfairly (by the Americans or by anybody else), and indeed many countries have. Now, if these other countries were to petition to become part of the USA, and subject themselves to the laws (and financing via taxation) of the USA instead of maintaining their independence, then their citizens should be able to vote in the same elections. But notice that no country would take such a notion seriously today. Just because one is affected by another's actions does not mean one should have veto power over it, especially if one has means of looking after oneself regardless of the outcome. From megaquark at hotmail.com Fri Sep 24 18:53:07 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:53:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... References: Message-ID: I suppose we should have consulted the Japanese population before dropping the bomb too? Maybe we should have asked the Germans what they thought of us entering the war? If the Iraqis would have been murdered for asking for US help, how could we expect them to vote for it? How could such an "election" take place in Iraq with Saddam in charge? > > "US policy now affects every citizen on the planet. So we should all > have a say in who gets to the White House" > > by Jonathan Freedland > The Guardian, 22 September 2004 > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 18:59:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040924185915.3320.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> During the British Empire, did it's posessions have seats in Parliament? Too bad nobody wants to become a US colony, they might have more input... of course, they never seem to turn away our 'aid'... P --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I suppose we should have consulted the Japanese population before > dropping > the bomb too? Maybe we should have asked the Germans what they > thought of us > entering the war? If the Iraqis would have been murdered for asking > for US > help, how could we expect them to vote for it? How could such an > "election" > take place in Iraq with Saddam in charge? > > > > > "US policy now affects every citizen on the planet. So we should > all > > have a say in who gets to the White House" > > > > by Jonathan Freedland > > The Guardian, 22 September 2004 > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Sep 24 19:25:48 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 15:25:48 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: I think one of the important priciples of democracy is that only members of a given set vote as they have a vested interest. It's rather foolish to allow non-citizens to vote as their concerns are unlikely to coincide with the concerns of the society holding the vote. We'd get all sorts of wackiness like landslide elections that redistribute all wealth away from US/Europe into poorer countries, etc. BAL >From: Amara Graps >To: wta-talk at transhumanism.org, extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... >Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:13:03 +0100 > > >>--- Amara Graps wrote: > >>> "US policy now affects every citizen on the planet. So we should all >>> have a say in who gets to the White House" >>> >>> by Jonathan Freedland >>> The Guardian, 22 September 2004 > >Martin Striz: >>So can we vote on Al Qaeda leadership? > >... If they claimed to have a democracy, then why not? >(Last I heard, they were making no such claim) > >It would be useful to know what rough number are the Al Qaeda, >and then compare to the population of the rest of the world. > >... > >You may or may not have heard that the US Federal Government has begun >restricting international access to the site to help overseas absentee >voters cast ballots on this upcoming Federal Election. > >Here is a group that has worked around that: > >http://register.verifiedvoting.org/ > >(so at least overseas US citizens can vote in the US elections) > >Amara > > >Civilians reported killed by military >intervention in Iraq: 12,927 - 14,981 >http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From scerir at libero.it Fri Sep 24 19:33:56 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 21:33:56 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=5Bextropy-chat=5D_Fran=E7oise_Sagan_?= References: <20040924162534.61427.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001001c4a26d$6ffad120$d1b41b97@administxl09yj> Fran?oise Sagan, 'la derni?re des existentialistes', died today. http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3382,36-380457,0.html http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 at 2-3230,36-372250,0.html 'Although I did not share my father's intense aversion to ugliness - which often led us to associate with stupid people - I did feel vaguely uncomfortable in the presence of anyone completely devoid of physical charm. Their resignation to the fact that they were unattractive seemed to me somehow indecent. For what are we looking for if not to please? I do not know if the desire to attract others comes from a superabundance of vitality, possessiveness, or the hidden, unspoken need to be reassured.' - Fran?oise Sagan (Fran?oise Quoirez) 'Bonjour Tristesse', (1954) From sentience at pobox.com Fri Sep 24 20:03:10 2004 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:03:10 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41547D7E.4020204@pobox.com> Brian Lee wrote: > I think one of the important priciples of democracy is that only members > of a given set vote as they have a vested interest. It's rather foolish > to allow non-citizens to vote as their concerns are unlikely to coincide > with the concerns of the society holding the vote. > > We'd get all sorts of wackiness like landslide elections that > redistribute all wealth away from US/Europe into poorer countries, etc. > > BAL Would it be so terribly dreadful if the rest of the planet got 10 seats in the House of Representatives? It might go a long, long way toward easing anti-American resentment, and maybe even bringing a faint tinge of sanity to this country's foreign policy. I think at least 30% of the hatred out there is due to America's - no, Dubya's, let's give credit where it's due - way of appearing to just *completely not care* what the rest of the world thinks. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 20:22:43 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 13:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <41547D7E.4020204@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20040924202244.10750.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Brian Lee wrote: > > I think one of the important priciples of democracy is that only > members > > of a given set vote as they have a vested interest. It's rather > foolish > > to allow non-citizens to vote as their concerns are unlikely to > coincide > > with the concerns of the society holding the vote. > > > > We'd get all sorts of wackiness like landslide elections that > > redistribute all wealth away from US/Europe into poorer countries, > etc. > > > > BAL > > Would it be so terribly dreadful if the rest of the planet got 10 > seats in the House of Representatives? It might go a long, long way > toward easing anti-American resentment, and maybe even bringing a > faint tinge of sanity to this country's foreign policy. I think at > least 30% of the hatred out there is due to America's - no, Dubya's, > let's give credit where it's due - way of appearing to just > *completely not care* what the rest of the world thinks. Ten seats equals 5.6 million people, or are you arguing that we should value non-Americans as 1/1000th of a human being? You were saying something about minimizing resentment? I hear that Afghanistan has about 5 million citizens. How about we make them the 51st state? Then even the most wild eyed Taliban can freely travel here without a passport.... So when do I get to vote in the French elections? How about my Member of British Parliament? Shall we let the Saudis have seats in the Israeli Knesset? When has the rest of the world ever GIVEN A TINKERS DAMN about what the US thinks of them, except when it was a matter of getting money from us? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From amara.graps at gmail.com Fri Sep 24 20:23:45 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 22:23:45 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Photographs of Recent Etna Activity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:48:57 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time), MB wrote: > > Wow! Oh, Amara, thank you for posting these. How utterly fantastic to > be there and see it all. :) It was a dream. If I didn't have my piece of lava (I saw its birthday!) I wouldn't have believed that I was there. Tonight, I put some text and a couple of pictures of my own on a page: http://www.amara.com/photo/etna.html Enjoy! Amara From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Sep 24 20:55:26 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:55:26 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: I think the UN accomplishes what the 10 foreign seats in the US House would accomplish. It just violates the sense of sovereignty. Should New York citizens have 2 respresentatives in the NJ/Delaware/CT/etc houses and senates? A society should elect its own representatives, not representatives for other societies. As for the ill-will toward the US. I think that the US will be hated no matter what it does because it is the lone superpower and there is no threat to make other countries cleave to us. Wait 50 years and then everyone will hate China for being the lone superpower. BAL >From: Eliezer Yudkowsky >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 >elections... >Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:03:10 -0400 > >Brian Lee wrote: >>I think one of the important priciples of democracy is that only members >>of a given set vote as they have a vested interest. It's rather foolish to >>allow non-citizens to vote as their concerns are unlikely to coincide with >>the concerns of the society holding the vote. >> >>We'd get all sorts of wackiness like landslide elections that redistribute >>all wealth away from US/Europe into poorer countries, etc. >> >>BAL > >Would it be so terribly dreadful if the rest of the planet got 10 seats in >the House of Representatives? It might go a long, long way toward easing >anti-American resentment, and maybe even bringing a faint tinge of sanity >to this country's foreign policy. I think at least 30% of the hatred out >there is due to America's - no, Dubya's, let's give credit where it's due - >way of appearing to just *completely not care* what the rest of the world >thinks. > >-- >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ >Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From brentn at freeshell.org Fri Sep 24 22:32:08 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 18:32:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924145447.36719.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/24/04 7:54) Mike Lorrey wrote: >Sorry, but anyone with a brain knows that a) Bush is against a draft, >and the military has said it has no need for one and doesn't want one, I should hardly think that those people who trust Bush's word on something count as having a brain. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Sep 24 22:45:45 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 17:45:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Australia dithering on non-repro cloning Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040924174451.019e4ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.biomedcentral.com/news/20040924/01 From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 24 23:22:02 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 00:22:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040924232202.34981.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Bush does not want a draft at this time. However after November 2nd, when he no longer need concern himself with re-election, Bush will be free to modify his policy towards conscription, if he so chooses. The military at this time does not need a draft either, yet in the past emergencies have arisen prompting not only the C. in C. but also the Joint Chiefs & others in the high command to alter their plans drastically. > (9/24/04 7:54) Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > >Sorry, but anyone with a brain knows that a) Bush > is against a draft, > >and the military has said it has no need for one > and doesn't want one, ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Sep 24 23:31:23 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 16:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924232202.34981.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040924233123.15748.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Bush does not want a draft at this time. However after > November 2nd, when he no longer need concern himself > with re-election, Bush will be free to modify his > policy towards conscription, if he so chooses. > The military at this time does not need a draft > either, yet in the past emergencies have arisen > prompting not only the C. in C. but also the Joint > Chiefs & others in the high command to alter their > plans drastically. Alteration of plans: like reducing overseas deployments to peaceful nations? Just saw in the news that Bush and Japanese PM Koizumi reached an agreement to reduce the US presence in Japan, especially on Okinawa. This will free up a significant number of troops, which could either bolster those in Iraq, build up those in South Korea, or expand the hunt for bin Laden. Prediction: A similar agreement will be forthcoming in europe. US bases in Britain will be drastically cut back or eliminated, US bases in Germany will be cut back and/or moved entirely to more sympathetic countries like Poland. The US will have another 20k-40k troops to put in the field without a draft by some time in 2006. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From amara.graps at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 07:18:41 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 09:18:41 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: I think you are reading far more into the pieces. On the second article: with a bit of tongue-in-cheek about nonUS citizens right to vote in US elections, the author was pointing out that US foreign policy affects many more people than just US citizens and that Bush words of democracy should be looked at carefully. Nothing earth-shattering here. What I notice is no one acknowledging the fact that people who have the *most * experience with US' foreign policy (with the exception of the dead Iraqis and soldiers) are the US armed forces and US citizens living abroad. Ask yourself why the Bush administration recently started restricting November 2 voting information for those US citizens. Amara www.amara.com http://register.verifiedvoting.org/ The URLs of the other articles I posted are here: http://www.iht.com/articles/537873.html http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/article.print?id=4559 From amara.graps at gmail.com Sat Sep 25 11:51:25 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:51:25 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Night Sky Live Message-ID: This is very cool, and could be useful too... Amara The Night Sky Live http://nightskylive.net/ Beginners http://nightskylive.net/NightSkyLive_for_beginners.html (from the FAQ) Q: What is CONCAM/Night Sky Live? A: A CONCAM is a CONtinuous CAMera that is placed somewhere in the world with a fisheye lenses to watch the entire sky every night. Each camera takes a 180-second exposure every 4 minutes, then relays the data back to nightskylive.net. Collectively, these physical CONCAM devices are part of the Night Sky Live project that also includes people, data, web pages, etc. The Night Sky Live project aims to make these images and data available to those who are interested. Scientists http://nightskylive.net/NightSkyLive_for_scientists.html Types of Data Collected WOLF was developed specifically for the Night Sky Live by Lior Shamir, to analyze CONCAM images and output several useful sets of data, which are detailed below. ? FITS The raw exposures from the CCDs inside the CONCAMs are saved as the scientific image format, FITS. Unlike normal graphics formats, a FITS file stores each pixel as a count, from 0 to 65536 (2^16). This count reflects the number of hits on each individual pixel of the CCD itself. Thus, photometry calculations can be made either by using a FITS-compatible viewer (such as fv (link)) or by using WOLF. ? Background WOLF can generate an image of the background of the sky with stars removed. This is very useful for the observatories that have a CONCAM as it gives them a good idea of how much light pollution is in the sky around them. Example. ? Opacity Maps WOLF is able to automatically detect the opacity of the sky, which gives us a very good idea of the atmospheric conditions above the CONCAM, which may not be readily apparent to the naked eye. ? Photometry The photometry data collected by WOLF is listed in tables on HTML files. There are two sorts of photometry files: one for each individual image, and a second set for each individual star over the course of a night (although only the brightest stars are currently automatically collected). ? Annotated Images WOLF generates JPEG files automatically labeled with star names, constellation names, planets, and it can even detect transients. In addition, any object can be manually added to the catalog, such as comets or galaxies, for quick identification. Any object added to the catalog will also have photometry data taken for it. Unannotated images are also available. From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 25 12:34:36 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 14:34:36 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) References: <20040924162534.61427.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003d01c4a2fc$051e8100$1cbd1b97@administxl09yj> > follow the link = > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Quantumcomputing/ Plenty of room at the bottom, eh? :-) http://www.amasci.com/feynman.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 25 12:34:33 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:34:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040925123433.35012.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > I think you are reading far more into the pieces. On the second > article: with a bit of tongue-in-cheek about nonUS citizens right to > vote in US elections, the author was pointing out that US foreign > policy affects many more people than just US citizens and that Bush > words of democracy should be looked at carefully. > Nothing earth-shattering here. > > What I notice is no one acknowledging the fact that people who have > the *most * experience with US' foreign policy (with the exception of > the dead Iraqis and soldiers) are the US armed forces and US citizens > living abroad. Ask yourself why the Bush administration recently > started restricting November 2 voting information for those US > citizens. Theft of US citizens vital papers is a common occurence in foreign nations where burglary, purse snatching, pick pocketing, mugging, and auto theft are at epidemic rates (including places like Italy, fer instance). Left wingers here are encouraging foreigners to victimize US citizens they know to get their vital papers so that they may commit voter fraud. This is in keeping with the overall movement by the left to create a new proletariat of non-anglo immigrants who are easier to disaffect, disillusion, and disenfranchise by unrestricted illegal immigration. You especially, Amara, should lock up whatever US credentials you may have. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From scerir at libero.it Sat Sep 25 13:01:02 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 15:01:02 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] liquid, solid References: <20040924162534.61427.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> <003d01c4a2fc$051e8100$1cbd1b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <005b01c4a2ff$b669be40$1cbd1b97@administxl09yj> Physicists in France have discovered a liquid that "freezes" when it is heated http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/9/15 http://www.ill.fr/AR-03/site/Reports_2003/listeReports/ Datas/final_report_22401.pdf http://www-lsp.ujf-grenoble.fr/vie_scientifique/stages/ datas/trommsdorff.pdf 'Art must take reality by surprise.' -Francoise Sagan From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Sep 25 15:18:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 08:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] GREENHOUSE: More Chicken Little FUD Message-ID: <20040925151857.44431.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/antarctic_ice This article epitomizes all I've been talking about in recent months about the fraud that is global warming. Just read it. Tell me what you think. Really analyse the contradictory points in the article. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 25 23:59:02 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 00:59:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924233123.15748.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040925235902.81427.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Troop withdrawal planning is proceeding but some doubt exists of infusing new blood, there is some doubt of continued recruitment levels for the rest of this decade and into the next; no matter how they shuffle the cards the services can't keep the same troops indefinitely. However if you are optimistic, so am I, since you have an inside glimpse. Let us hope your optimism is not feel-good baseless optimism (the most common sort of optimism). Alteration of plans: like reducing overseas deployments to peaceful nations? Just saw in the news that Bush and Japanese PM Koizumi reached an agreement to reduce the US presence in Japan, especially on Okinawa. This will free up a significant number of troops, which could either bolster those in Iraq, build up those in South Korea, or expand the hunt for bin Laden. Prediction: A similar agreement will be forthcoming in europe. US bases in Britain will be drastically cut back or eliminated, US bases in Germany will be cut back and/or moved entirely to more sympathetic countries like Poland. The US will have another 20k-40k troops to put in the field without a draft by some time in 2006. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 06:29:14 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 08:29:14 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Sims 2 let players play God Message-ID: <470a3c5204092523292d2d9731@mail.gmail.com> >From Daily News Tribune: If you could play God, would you be kind, cruel or just careless? The answer can reveal itself by the way you play "The Sims 2," the highly anticipated follow-up to the "real life" personal computer game "The Sims," which placed omnipotent players in control of the fates of digital people... What's funny is that we have a genetics feature now (which allows characters who mate to have children who share their looks and aspirations). So you can download some of the celebrities that the players have made, put them in the game and have them have kids. http://www.dailynewstribune.com/artsCulture/view.bg?articleid=41602 From hal at finney.org Sun Sep 26 06:34:38 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler Message-ID: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> The October issue of Wired magazine has a fascinating article on Eric Drexler, by Ed Regis, author of Nano: The Emerging Science of Nanotechnology. Based on their previous publishing habits, the article will probably be available on wired.com in a few days or weeks. It is a sad article on the decline in the status of Drexler and his ideas for molecular manufacturing. The recent debate with Richard Smalley was one of the most visible signs: ... a series of letters between Drexler and Smalley in which the Nobelist made his position clear: Molecular assembly is impossible. "Chemistry of the complexity, richness, and precision needed to come anywhere close to making a molecular assembler - let alone a self-replicating assembler - cannot be done simply by mushing two molecular objects together," Smalley wrote. It was a public takedown from the man fast replacing Drexler as nano's leading light. But Smalley wasn't done. In remarks so overheated that they bordered on bizarre, he accused Drexler of terrorizing the world with the prospect that self-reproducing assemblers might escape the lab and devour everything in their path, turning the Earth into an inert, undifferentiated blob of gray goo. "You and people around you have scared our children," Smalley fairly shouted in print. The other recent defeat was the deletion of the proposal for research on molecular manufacturing in the recent nanotech funding bill. Regis describes Drexler as "bloodied but combative": He speaks in apocalyptic terms. "In a competitive world," Drexler says, conjuring the frightening prospect of hostile forces wielding gray goo nanoweapons, "suppression of research in molecular nanotechnology is the equivalent of unilateral disarmament." The outcome, he claims, could be nothing less than "the destruction of the United States as a world power." I don't think Regis is quite right here in describing gray goo as a nanoweapon; it sounds like Drexler is speaking more generally of the enhanced effectiveness of military forces equipped with nanotechnology. Drexler's personal situation is described as quite shaky: Drexler's rejection by the scientific and political establishments comes at a particularly bad moment. Last year, he divorced Christine Peterson, his wife of 21 years and president of his nonprofit think tank, the Foresight Institute.... Never a rich man, Drexler is barely solvent. He recently moved from his three-bedroom ranch house in Silicon Valley into a modest apartment. It's unfortunate that he is dealing with personal and professional crises at the same time, but keep in mind that it's common for divorced men to move into smaller apartments at first. I am confident that a man with Drexler's talents is not going to end up as a pauper, the way Regis seems to paint him. Of course the big question, which dwarfs issues of Drexler's personal life, is whether nanotech will work. Regis has some interesting quotes: Even at MIT [where he got his PhD in nanotechnology], his work divided the faculty. "It's very impressive, there is no question," said MIT chemist Rick Danheiser, who served as Drexler's thesis adviser, in 1992. "I couldn't have done a better job." "It showed utter contempt for chemistry," countered Danheiser's colleague Julius Rebek. "And the mechanosynthesis stuff I saw in that thesis might as well have been written by somebody on controlled substances." Regis has some quotes from Smalley which offer more insight than I have seen elsewhere into the thought processes that turned him from an enthusiastic supporter of the molecular assembly concept into its most visible opponent. Sitting in his hotel room at June's Nano-Summit, Smalley explains that he was once captivated by Drexler's notions. "I was enchanted by Engines of Creation," he says. "I read it in a single sitting, and then I reread it." As late as 1999, he testified to Congress about "what will be possible when we learn to build things at the ultimate level of control, one atom at a time." But doubts crept in as Smalley pondered the theory. "For months I said to myself, How could we have missed this? Is it really possible to do chemistry in this way? After a while, I thought I saw what might be some problems. The more I thought about it, the more troublesome they appeared. Finally I ended up thinking, it's just hopeless." Smalley recalls a meeting he arranged with Drexler at Stanford about a decade ago. "I wanted to talk about the tip," he says, referring to the business end of Drexler's machines. "I love the idea of the assembler. So I tried to drag him into a conversation about the tip, and he stonewalled. It was as if the tip was a job for later." Drexler remembers the same meeting with no less frustration. "I found it very hard to explain things to him," he says. "He was asking for an irrelevant and impossible control of the motion of every atom. The question isn't, Are there some things that won't work? The question is, Are there enough things that will?" I find that this exchange encapsulates the problem with this argument. Smalley is saying, show me that it will work. Drexler replies, show me that it won't. I can't count how many times I have seen this same dynamic at work in the ongoing feasibility debate. My opinion, as I have stated here before, is that when reduced to these terms, Drexler loses. He has the burden of proof here. I know that some disagree and argue that the power of the technology demands investigation if there is even a chance that Drexler is right. Regis goes on to criticize Drexler's use of the picture which was on the cover of the debate issue of Chemical and Engineering News. I can only find a small version of it right now, . On a screen, Drexler projects an illustration of a molecular mill, a wheel that transfers one atom at a time to a succession of molecules as they move past on a conveyer belt. The image, the latest expression of Drexler's vision, is absurdly oversimplified. The machinery is rendered with solid surfaces rather than the atoms they must actually comprise - a choice that plays into the hands of his critics." I had a similar reaction when I saw the diagram. I thought the magazine came up with it on its own and that it was a very poor representation of the molecular assembly concept. But apparently Drexler either created it or at least likes it enough to use it. Probably it's because it represents the "mill" concept which Drexler developed in Nanosystems rather than the "robot arm" which is widely associated with assemblers. The robot arm more nearly matches Smalley's description of a "finger" for positional assembly, making it vulnerable to his "fat fingers" and "sticky fingers" arguments. Mills have no fingers, at least not to the same degree (there are some stubby projections holding the atoms in the diagram). My reading of the Smalley-Drexler debate was that Drexler was talking about mill systems to escape these critiques. Regis closes on a somewhat more positive note: Yet there are indications that Drexler wants to remain a player - even if that means backpedaling and retrenching. First, he has abandoned his staple rhetoric. "Self-replicating nanomachines are not necessary for molecular manufacturing and should be de-emphasized as a goal," he wrote in the January 2004 issue of Foresight's newsletter. Instead, they would be replaced by "desktop nanofactories" conceived as "general purposes manufacturing systems." Second, he now regularly invokes Richard Feynman's name, calling his claim that molecules can be positioned mechanically "the Feynman thesis." Finally, he has proposed renaming his vision of molecular manipulation zettatechnology, a tacit acknowledgement that he has lost the tug-of-war over the term he coined. Well, "zettatechnology" isn't going to fly, and bandying Feynman's name about is pretty doubtful too. Eliminating the gray goo threat however may be politically useful, although the meme may have enough momentum to be self perpetuating. Regis argues that one reason for avoiding Drexler's ideas is the fear that nanotech will come to be seen as an evil technology and be tainted at birth like biotech was. But after all the years of gray goo stories, after Bill Joy and Michael Crichton have scared us all, I'm doubtful about how much it helps to have Drexler saying, in effect, "never mind". Hal From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Sun Sep 26 08:04:46 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:04:46 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040926080448.C8502C618@vscan02.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of "Hal Finney" Sent: Sunday, 26 September 2004 2:35 PM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler My opinion, as I have stated here before, is that when reduced to these terms, Drexler loses. He has the burden of proof here. ------------------------------------------------------------ And rightly so. It falls within the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"....statement which is rightly used by all skeptics. Sean From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 09:46:22 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 11:46:22 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler Message-ID: Hal Finney >The October issue of Wired magazine has a fascinating article on >Eric Drexler, by Ed Regis, [...] >It is a sad article on the decline in the status of Drexler and his ideas for >molecular manufacturing. [...] >Drexler's personal situation is described as quite shaky: > Drexler's rejection by the scientific and political establishments > comes at a particularly bad moment. Last year, he divorced Christine > Peterson, his wife of 21 years and president of his nonprofit think > tank, the Foresight Institute.... Never a rich man, Drexler is barely > solvent. He recently moved from his three-bedroom ranch house in > Silicon Valley into a modest apartment. >It's unfortunate that he is dealing with personal This is old news. They split two years ago. Then and now, Eric (and Christine): on friendly terms and no crisis. And for many many months Eric has been seeing someone else. Hardly a crisis. >and professional crises >at the same time, but keep in mind that it's common for divorced men to >move into smaller apartments at first. and divorced women It is useful to point out that the Silicon Valley is one of the most expensive places in the world to live. >I am confident that a man with >Drexler's talents is not going to end up as a pauper, the way Regis >seems to paint him. I haven't seen the article, but I'm sorry for people's misunderstandings about Drexler. I think, though, that Eric will weather it. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From amara.graps at gmail.com Sun Sep 26 11:35:30 2004 From: amara.graps at gmail.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 13:35:30 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy Message-ID: Hollywood must surely be eyeing this story... --Amara http://www.onlypunjab.com/real/fullstory-newsID-2203.html Siberian boy 'brought up by dog' Publish Date : 9/25/2004 1:23:00 PM A seven-year-old boy who has been brought up by a dog for the past six years has reportedly been found in Siberia. Police in the Altai autonomous region were on a routine patrol in the woods when they spotted the boy in front of an abandoned house with the elderly dog. It is thought the undernourished boy was abandoned by his parents and survived by living off the food he shared with the dog. Officers initially thought he was three, but hospital examinations subsequently put him at seven, and police say all the evidence points to him having been left for six years. A spokesman said: "He was running about on all fours and growling. They thought he was playing at first but the house is miles from anywhere and is little more than a ruin, and he was really dirty and naked, so they realised something was wrong. "When they approached he growled and snarled and tried to bite them when they tried to pull him away from the old dog." The boy, who has been named Andrei, does not know how to speak, and still smells his food like a dog before eating it. Medical staff have also failed to persuade him to use a spoon, rather than guzzle the food down with his mouth. It is not known if the dog was a family pet or a stray who found the boy. Police are now searching for his parents, who could be charged with abuse, neglect and attempted murder. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Sep 26 13:29:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 06:29:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040926132957.64803.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > Well, "zettatechnology" isn't going to fly, and bandying Feynman's > name about is pretty doubtful too. Eliminating the gray goo threat > however may be politically useful, although the meme may have > enough momentum to be self perpetuating. At least something, then is self replicating. Eliminating the grey goo threat is really all he needs. Once he convinces some blue sky boys in the bowels of the Pentagon, they will get the juice to have anti-grey-go tech developed on a black budget. In fact, I would not be surprised if Smalley's real intent is just that: discredit the potential for the technology just before its proponents disappear into a labyrinth of black budgets and Above Top Secret security clearances. It sounds to me like the same sort of FUD that the USAF used to use about Area 51 when it was spreading the UFO myth to discredit anybody who witnessed stealth aircraft activity. "Nothing to see here, folks, move along, just some UFO wackos..." ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Sep 26 16:04:57 2004 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 09:04:57 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040926085925.0331e870@mail.earthlink.net> Amara Graps wrote: I'm not a fan of Ed Regis, and I have been disturbed by his articles and books. His book on transhumans was quite weak. It was a book about cryonics and nanotechnology and culture, not transhumans, per se. I wish he had not used the word "transhuman" so loosely, in deference to FM-2030 who was teaching about transhumanity at the time Ed wrote this book and who Ed didn't mention, but freely borrowed the ideas. >Hal Finney > >The October issue of Wired magazine has a fascinating article on > >Eric Drexler, by Ed Regis, >[...] > >It is a sad article on the decline in the status of Drexler and his > ideas for > >molecular manufacturing. >[...] > >Drexler's personal situation is described as quite shaky: > > > Drexler's rejection by the scientific and political establishments > > comes at a particularly bad moment. Last year, he divorced Christine > > Peterson, his wife of 21 years and president of his nonprofit think > > tank, the Foresight Institute.... Never a rich man, Drexler is barely > > solvent. He recently moved from his three-bedroom ranch house in > > Silicon Valley into a modest apartment. > >It's unfortunate that he is dealing with personal > >This is old news. They split two years ago. Then and now, Eric >(and Christine): on friendly terms and no crisis. And for many many >months Eric has been seeing someone else. Hardly a crisis. Exactly, and it was amicable. > >and professional crises > >at the same time, but keep in mind that it's common for divorced men to > >move into smaller apartments at first. > >and divorced women > >It is useful to point out that the Silicon Valley is one of the >most expensive places in the world to live. > > >I am confident that a man with > >Drexler's talents is not going to end up as a pauper, the way Regis > >seems to paint him. > >I haven't seen the article, but I'm sorry for people's misunderstandings >about Drexler. I think, though, that Eric will weather it. Yes, of course, but here again, another article that uses life's incidents (which most everyone has experienced) and builds them to make a story about Eric has some Entertainment Tonight interpretation of the facts. Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc ---------- President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz http://www.transhuman.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Mon Sep 27 01:46:52 2004 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:46:52 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Exi Archives? Message-ID: <0c3801c4a433$dcefd8d0$ec202dcb@homepc> Is it possible to access posts older than october 2003 from an Exi archive somewhere? I'm specifically looking for something prior to Aug 2002. Seems like the exi web site only has archives going back to oct 2003. I could be overlooking the obvious, if so, my apologies. Thanks Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Sep 27 04:13:34 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:13:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Pro-cloning talking point Message-ID: <20040927041334.13850.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> In a debate on another forum - usually a fairly mundane one (neither very luddite nor very transhumanist, so far as I can tell) - I made the following argument in defense of cloning research, in retaliation to religious "we should not play God" comments. I expected to get shouted down, but since I posted it, I've been getting little but praise; those who were arguing the other side saw the point, and the only negative comment was a confusion between the morality of doing nothing (or less than the maximum possible, like spending time participating in this debate instead of doing the research 24/7) vs. the morality of actively opposing something. So I figure, if I offer it here, maybe it can help inform other talking points on this and similar issues, both in content and in style. I'm not sure whether this is just ego, or if I truly have stumbled across a not widely used but effective meme propigation style. --- My position is the same as most of those posted here, but a bit more extreme. Theraputic cloning almost definitely will save lives. Research into reproductive cloning is likely to, at the least, improve our understanding of human natal processes, thus resulting in better care for non-cloned newborns. And so forth. Therefore, those who oppose cloning for no other reason than a belief that God is against it, have on their hands the blood of all those who will suffer and die due to things that cloning research - if it happened faster without their objections - would have prevented. In short, they are murderers. Yes, that's right. Murderers. A lesser form, perhaps, because they are distanced from the event and they almost certainly do not themselves see what their actions will reap. (Those whom I've seen come to understand this cause and effect, have almost universally repented their errant belief shortly thereafter.) But it is still the same sin as defined by their own religious texts. If God exists, it looks like we were created in order to "play God" - i.e., to further God's intent, with the tools God gave us. (Personally, I'm not sure there is a divine entity. I'm just saying, if there is, then given what has been revealed to us thus far...) That said...at the moment, any attempts at reproductive cloning would almost definitely produce extreme birth defects, and that's among the few cloned embryos that survived long enough to be born. So reproductive cloning is not a good idea right now. Once research is done to change that situation, though, it becomes just another type of artificial fertility treatment, much like in vitro fertilization (which it makes used of) and surrogate wombs. On the other hand, the research itself - even research explicitly aimed towards reproductive cloning - is not a bad thing. From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Mon Sep 27 04:49:02 2004 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:49:02 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <4150923A.3074E21A@Genius.UCSD.edu> References: <4150923A.3074E21A@Genius.UCSD.edu> Message-ID: <8D946223-1040-11D9-9C1F-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Sep 21, 2004, at 1:42 PM, Johnius wrote: > A low-cost, low-energy way to eliminate the warm surface water, > where it would otherwise soon be feeding a hurricane or other > tropical disturbance, is to cause the water to 'turn over.' > This is done by pumping compressed air down toward gulf or sea > bottom and releasing it. The cooler waters come to the top and > the hurricane loses its energy over them to become disorganized > squalls." Where do you dump the very substantial waste heat from the pumping operation? This idea reads as thermodynamically untenable to me. j. andrew rogers From emlynoregan at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 05:28:15 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:58:15 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: <20040926080448.C8502C618@vscan02.westnet.com.au> References: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> <20040926080448.C8502C618@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <710b78fc040926222877903255@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 16:04:46 +0800, Sean Diggins wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of "Hal Finney" > Sent: Sunday, 26 September 2004 2:35 PM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler > > > > My opinion, as I have stated here before, is that when reduced to these > terms, Drexler loses. He has the burden of proof here. > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > And rightly so. > It falls within the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary > proof"....statement which is rightly used by all skeptics. > > > Sean Why isn't all of terrestrial biology usable as proof? It makes a pretty solid proof of concept as far as I'm concerned. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Mon Sep 27 05:53:15 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:53:15 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: <710b78fc040926222877903255@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040927055312.E145111BF7E@vscan02.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Emlyn > ------------------------------------------------------------ > And rightly so. > It falls within the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary > proof"....statement which is rightly used by all skeptics. > > > Sean Why isn't all of terrestrial biology usable as proof? It makes a pretty solid proof of concept as far as I'm concerned. ---------------------------------------- I was actually tackled off-list on this one, by Robert Bradbury. I hope he wont mind me posting my response to him here. Also, I thought there was still some argument regarding Drexler and his ideas/theories among physicists, but I may be wrong. I'm naturally skeptical, but I didn't join this list to be a wowser. I'm a believer in the benefits of nano and I really want to live to see it become a wonderfully useful technology used daily by all of us. Here's what I said to Robert: -----Original Message----- From: Robert J. Bradbury [mailto:bradbury at aeiveos.com] Sean I believe said: "And rightly so. It falls within the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"....statement which is rightly used by all skeptics." *But* you fail to point out precisely which claims by Drexler are "extraordinary" [and may thereby may be false.] I from a computer science and biological background find almost all claims by Drexler to be true. The only places I may be somewhat less certain involve the aspects of molecular dynamics. -------------------------------------------------------------- OK, I take your point. But, I wouldlike to say (and shoul have said) I'm not a nano skeptic, but I share many of the fears and views expressed years ago by Bill Joy. (and also by Drexler) ------------------------------------------------------------- >If you are going to cite "extraordinary claims" then you should damn well provide references. ---------------------------------------------------------- The references to which I applied the statement were contained in the preceding "argument text". Ie "Smalley is saying, show me that it will work. Drexler replies, show me that it won't." This is something Hal wrote.....and it seems to be on the money with respect to the piece he was quoting from. Maybe Drexler is right, of course. I really hope he is, but I'm not a trained physicist. I've only read as many white papers as I can understand, plus relatively "easy to follow" books like Broderick's The Spike and The Last Mortal Generation. The statement made by Hal is the same as the statement made by skeptics when assessing frauds and SCAMmers (ie So Called Alternative Medicine) such as homeopaths. And in this sense, I agree with Hal. But if Hal's reading of the two stances was incorrect, then my response was inappropriate. And sure, I'm no expert on Drexler either, although I have followed his life and ideas for many years. But I'm an audio engineer, not a scientist. Even so, I have discussed nano and Drexler et al with a few close friends who are physics professors. It is NOT a subject upon which there is wide agreement. That is clear to me. And hey, no need to scold me off-list. I quite capable of taking my medicine in public. ------------------------------------------------------------- >In my opinion if you read everything he has written (and I pretty much have) he has met that proof. If it cannot be recognized then you have a problem of people not being sufficiently educated in the field to validate the evidence in front of their eyes. -------------------------------------------------------------- I would suggest he has met the requirements of credible theory. As to "proof", what exactly qualifies as proof in nano at this juncture? And yes, things will get worse before they get better. Bill Joy was not a lunatic when he wrote his piece. There are many risks. I'm personally unafraid and willing to forge ahead with it on every level, but that does not change the fundamental truth of the statement I made. Ie "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" I suppose the real question is, where does that apply to any of Drexler's theories? If it does NOT apply anywhere, and he has satisfied science to the point where none of his theories are regarded as extraordinary claims by anyone who understands the science, I happily withdraw my statement. BTW, I don't mind if you publish my response to the list... Sean From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 27 06:43:40 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2004 23:43:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] I'm Baaaaack Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040926234117.029433b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Some of you may remember me from the mid 90s. I return, for better or worse. See my sig file re my life as a cryonicist. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 06:45:06 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:45:06 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Free to clone Message-ID: <470a3c5204092623451cbed7a6@mail.gmail.com> >From the New York Times, by Brian Alexander: This election year, the debate over cloning technology has become a circus - and hardly anybody has noticed the gorilla hiding in the tent. Even while President Bush has endorsed throwing scientists in jail to stop "reckless experiments" (and has tried to muscle the U.N. into adopting a ban on all forms of cloning, even for research), it's just possible the First Amendment will protect researchers who want to perform cloning research. Dr. Leon Kass, the chairman of the President's Council on Bioethics and a cloning foe, would like to keep that a secret. "I don't want to encourage such thinking," he said during the council's July 24, 2003, session. But the notion that the First Amendment creates a "right to research" has been around for a long time, and Kass knows it. In 1977, four eminent legal scholars?Thomas Emerson, Jerome Barron, Walter Berns and Harold P. Green?were asked to testify before the House Subcommittee on Science, Technology and Space. At the time, there was alarm in the country over recombinant DNA, or gene splicing. Some people feared clones, designer babies, a plague of superbacteria. The committee wanted to know if the federal government should, or could, restrict the science. ''Certainly the overwhelming tenor of the testimony was in favor of protecting it,'' Barron, who now teaches at George Washington University, recalls. ''I did say scientific research comes within the umbrella of the First Amendment, and I still feel that way.'' Why legal scholars would defend the right to research is hardly mysterious. The founding fathers passionately defended scientific and academic freedom, and the Supreme Court has traditionally had a high regard for it. In Griswold v. Connecticut, for example, the decision that struck down state prohibitions on the sale of contraceptives, the court stated that the First Amendment protected ''freedom of inquiry.'' Neoconservatives like Kass and the bioethics council members Charles Krauthammer and Francis Fukuyama have emphasized the need to maintain a fixed conception of human nature. But the O.T.A. directly addressed this in a 1981 report. ''Even if the rationale . . . were expanded to include situations where knowledge threatens fundamental cultural values about the nature of man, control of research for such a reason probably would not be constitutionally permissible.'' From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 07:01:05 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:01:05 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pro-cloning talking point In-Reply-To: <20040927041334.13850.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040927041334.13850.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52040927000120e70c3@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, I think this is excellent. It is a measured argument, you acknowledge that we don't know things well enough yet to mess with reproductive cloning, you argue based on common sense morality (murder is bad), and you try to establish a bridge with Christians (If God exists, it looks like we were created in order to "play God" - i.e., to further God's intent, with the tools God gave us." I think people are far from stupid and that everyone is able to understand things if they are explained with common sense and simple words. If we are persuaded of our own views it is up to us to design and engineer memetic bridges to the rest of the world. G. On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 21:13:34 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > In a debate on another forum - usually a fairly > mundane one (neither very luddite nor very > transhumanist, so far as I can tell) - I made the > following argument in defense of cloning research, in > retaliation to religious "we should not play God" > comments. I expected to get shouted down, but since I > posted it, I've been getting little but praise; those > who were arguing the other side saw the point, and the > only negative comment was a confusion between the > morality of doing nothing (or less than the maximum > possible, like spending time participating in this > debate instead of doing the research 24/7) vs. the > morality of actively opposing something. > > So I figure, if I offer it here, maybe it can help > inform other talking points on this and similar > issues, both in content and in style. I'm not sure > whether this is just ego, or if I truly have stumbled > across a not widely used but effective meme > propigation style. > > --- > > My position is the same as most of those posted here, > but a bit more extreme. > > Theraputic cloning almost definitely will save lives. > Research into reproductive cloning is likely to, at > the least, improve our understanding of human natal > processes, thus resulting in better care for > non-cloned newborns. And so forth. Therefore, those > who oppose cloning for no other reason than a belief > that God is against it, have on their hands the blood > of all those who will suffer and die due to things > that cloning research - if it happened faster without > their objections - would have prevented. In short, > they are murderers. > > Yes, that's right. Murderers. A lesser form, > perhaps, because they are distanced from the event and > they almost certainly do not themselves see what their > actions will reap. (Those whom I've seen come to > understand this cause and effect, have almost > universally repented their errant belief shortly > thereafter.) But it is still the same sin as defined > by their own religious texts. > > If God exists, it looks like we were created in order > to "play God" - i.e., to further God's intent, with > the tools God gave us. (Personally, I'm not sure there > is a divine entity. I'm just saying, if there is, > then given what has been revealed to us thus far...) > > That said...at the moment, any attempts at > reproductive cloning would almost definitely produce > extreme birth defects, and that's among the few cloned > embryos that survived long enough to be born. So > reproductive cloning is not a good idea right now. > Once research is done to change that situation, > though, it becomes just another type of artificial > fertility treatment, much like in vitro fertilization > (which it makes used of) and surrogate wombs. On the > other hand, the research itself - even research > explicitly aimed towards reproductive cloning - is not > a bad thing. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 07:17:06 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:17:06 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Sir Berners-Lee and the semantic web Message-ID: <470a3c520409270017376ba201@mail.gmail.com> Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web, but he had something bigger in mind all along. He tells TR how his 15 years of work on the "Semantic Web" are finally paying off. Berners-Lee is finally getting his reward: in July he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II, and the previous month he received Finland's million-euro Millennium Technology Prize, awarded "for outstanding technological achievements that directly promote people's quality of life, are based on humane values, and encourage sustainable economic development." Now in new offices in MIT's Frank Gehry?designed Ray and Maria Stata Center, the 49-year-old native of England is busy overseeing hundreds of projects at the W3C. He is also personally engaged in developing his second big idea: the Semantic Web, which adds definition tags to information in Web pages and links them in such a way that computers can discover data more efficiently and form new associations between pieces of information, in effect creating a globally distributed database. Though part of Berners-Lee's original intention for his invention, the Semantic Web has been 15 years in the making and has met its share of skepticism. But Berners-Lee believes it will soon win acceptance, enabling computers to extract meaning from far-flung information as easily as today's Internet simply links individual documents. The Semantic Web, coupled with other specifications and tools being developed at W3C, including accessibility standards for disabled people and software for mobile devices, is part of Berners-Lee's grand vision of "a single Web of meaning, about everything and for everyone." But is it a tangled web we weave? Despite his excitement about the future, Berners-Lee worries that poorly conceived changes to the Web's organization and governance could compromise its inherent functionality and "universality." The father of the World Wide Web shared his concerns?and dreams?the day before flying to Helsinki to accept his Millennium prize. http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/04/10/frauenfelder1004.asp?trk=top From jonkc at att.net Mon Sep 27 07:53:35 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 03:53:35 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler References: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <042201c4a467$475efa10$97f44d0c@hal2001> I respect Smalley, having a Nobel Prize and all, but I would be much more impressed with his argument that assembling macro sized objects with atomic precision if fundamentally imposable if I didn?t know of a pretty damn good counterexample to his thesis, life. Granted Drexler proposes a different way to do it, but I find it difficult to believe that random mutation and natural selection just happened to stumble onto the one and only way to go about it; I have a hunch intelligence can do better. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Mon Sep 27 09:10:49 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:10:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F972A3D-1065-11D9-AE9E-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> What did they do with the dog? best, patrick On 26 Sep 2004, at 13:35, Amara Graps wrote: > Hollywood must surely be eyeing this story... --Amara > > http://www.onlypunjab.com/real/fullstory-newsID-2203.html > > Siberian boy 'brought up by dog' > Publish Date : 9/25/2004 1:23:00 PM > > A seven-year-old boy who has been brought up by a dog for the > past six years has reportedly been found in Siberia. > > Police in the Altai autonomous region were on a routine patrol > in the woods when they spotted the boy in front of an abandoned > house with the elderly dog. > > It is thought the undernourished boy was abandoned by his > parents and survived by living off the food he shared with the > dog. > > Officers initially thought he was three, but hospital > examinations subsequently put him at seven, and police say all > the evidence points to him having been left for six years. > > A spokesman said: "He was running about on all fours and > growling. They thought he was playing at first but the house is > miles from anywhere and is little more than a ruin, and he was > really dirty and naked, so they realised something was wrong. > > "When they approached he growled and snarled and tried to bite > them when they tried to pull him away from the old dog." > > The boy, who has been named Andrei, does not know how to speak, > and still smells his food like a dog before eating it. > > Medical staff have also failed to persuade him to use a spoon, > rather than guzzle the food down with his mouth. > > It is not known if the dog was a family pet or a stray who found > the boy. > > Police are now searching for his parents, who could be charged > with abuse, neglect and attempted murder. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 11:26:27 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 04:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <8D946223-1040-11D9-9C1F-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <20040927112627.35212.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: > > On Sep 21, 2004, at 1:42 PM, Johnius wrote: > > A low-cost, low-energy way to eliminate the warm surface water, > > where it would otherwise soon be feeding a hurricane or other > > tropical disturbance, is to cause the water to 'turn over.' > > This is done by pumping compressed air down toward gulf or sea > > bottom and releasing it. The cooler waters come to the top and > > the hurricane loses its energy over them to become disorganized > > squalls." > > > Where do you dump the very substantial waste heat from the pumping > operation? This idea reads as thermodynamically untenable to me. If it were so, then OTEC systems could never generate any power. Fact is that the pumping generates negligible waste heat, and even then, the secret is *DILUTION*. Since all the energy that inputs a hurricane from the ocean is within a meter or two of the surface, what this plan merely does is dilute that heat with a much greater volume of water that wells up from the depths at freezing temperatures. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 11:38:46 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 13:38:46 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Now Virgin to offer trips to space Message-ID: <470a3c520409270438360fb446@mail.gmail.com> >From CNN: British entrepreneur Richard Branson has announced his company has signed a deal to offer the world's first commercial flights to space under the branding "Virgin Galactic." He told the news conference: "We hope to create thousands of astronauts over the next few years and bring alive their dream of seeing the majestic beauty of our planet from above, the stars in all their glory and the amazing sensation of weightlessness." http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/27/branson.space/ From amara at amara.com Mon Sep 27 13:56:19 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 14:56:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Dog and his boy Message-ID: Patrick Wilken Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE >What did they do with the dog? This story gives more details, but nothing about the fate of the dog.... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3582191&thesection=news&thesubsection=world -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** enscarfment n. a food break at the edge of a cliff. From scerir at libero.it Mon Sep 27 13:05:44 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:05:44 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Godel for free References: <6.0.3.0.1.20040926234117.029433b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001a01c4a492$b3dc8290$6dbd1b97@administxl09yj> Aficionados of G?del's Incompleteness Theorems might like to read the 160+ pages of a book (easy to follow) available for download from www.godelbook.net. Thanks to Dr Peter Smith: Faculty of Philosophy, University of Cambridge. s. Even though I'm a realist, I try to let the medium show and allow it a certain degree of freedom. - William C. Wright From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:04:29 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:04:29 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040925123433.35012.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040925123433.35012.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52040927070424a4ef13@mail.gmail.com> Slashdot, September 27, 2004: The United States is known as being the world's most stable democracy. But since the Florida 2000 fiasco, things have changed. Europe's famous Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will now be monitoring the U.S. elections. The institution normally monitors elections in third world countries in transition, and in crisis areas or regions where civil wars have destabilized the political process. In november, the OSCE will be monitoring local and state elections in Kazakhstan, Skopje, Eastern Congo, Ouagadougou and... the United States. As the BBC reports, for some Americans this comes as a humiliation; others see it as a necessity, since they have lost trust in the American election process. The BBC article says: There have certainly been objections to the involvement of foreign monitors in the domestic affairs of a country which sees itself as a beacon of democracy. Of course the discussion of Slashdot is more heated. http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/26/2217230&tid=226&tid=103&tid=219 From megaquark at hotmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:08:37 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:08:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time References: Message-ID: > > > I should hardly think that those people who trust Bush's word on something count as having a brain. > Unlike those brilliant people who believe anything that comes out of Kerry's mouth? Kerry doesn;t even believe himself. :-) From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Mon Sep 27 14:27:34 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:27:34 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <470a3c52040927070424a4ef13@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040925123433.35012.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <470a3c52040927070424a4ef13@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Note that the OSCE is there at the request of some US congressmen and the State Department, so it's hardly an "humiliation" for American people as slashdot says. Alfio On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >Slashdot, September 27, 2004: The United States is known as being the >world's most stable democracy. But since the Florida 2000 fiasco, >things have changed. Europe's famous Organisation for Security and >Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will now be monitoring the U.S. >elections. The institution normally monitors elections in third world >countries in transition, and in crisis areas or regions where civil >wars have destabilized the political process. In november, the OSCE >will be monitoring local and state elections in Kazakhstan, Skopje, >Eastern Congo, Ouagadougou and... the United States. As the BBC >reports, for some Americans this comes as a humiliation; others see it >as a necessity, since they have lost trust in the American election >process. >The BBC article says: There have certainly been objections to the >involvement of foreign monitors in the domestic affairs of a country >which sees itself as a beacon of democracy. Of course the discussion >of Slashdot is more heated. >http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/26/2217230&tid=226&tid=103&tid=219 >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Mon Sep 27 14:47:44 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 09:47:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] A liquid that freezes when heated Message-ID: It freezes when heated, and when cooled, melts. Pretty neat. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/9/15 Any ideas on it's usefulness? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Sep 27 16:00:33 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:00:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: Giu1i0 Pri5c0 : >http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/26/2217230&tid=226&tid=103&tid=219 >Europe's famous Organisation for Security and >Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will now be monitoring the U.S. >elections. This is good news. First Bush wanted to change the date of the elections, then I read news that voting information for US citizens living abroad is being restricted. I am very skeptical now that the US Federal government cares about having a fair election. But we'll see. With regard to the second news, I would like more information. The International Herald Tribune published an article a week ago that said the following: -------------------------------------------------------- http://www.iht.com/articles/539597.html Pentagon blocks site for voters outside U.S. Jennifer Joan Lee IHT Monday, September 20, 2004 PARIS In a decision that could affect Americans abroad who are not yet registered to vote in the Nov. 2 presidential election, the Pentagon has begun restricting international access to the official Web site intended to help overseas absentee voters cast ballots. According to overseas-voter advocates who have been monitoring the situation, Internet service providers in at least 25 countries - including Yahoo Broadband in Japan, Wanadoo in France, BT Yahoo Broadband in Britain and Telef?nica in Spain - have been denied access to the site of the Federal Voting Assistance Program, apparently to protect it from hackers. In an e-mail addressed to a person in France who had tried to access the Web site, the Federal Voting Assistance Program's Web manager, Susan Leader, wrote: "We are sorry you cannot access www.fvap.gov. Unfortunately, Wanadoo France has had its access blocked to U.S. government Web sites due to Wanadoo users constantly attempting to hack these sites. We do not expect the block to be lifted." In Washington, a Pentagon spokeswoman reached by telephone confirmed that a number of Internet service providers worldwide had been blacklisted to thwart hackers. The spokeswoman, Lieutenant Colonel Ellen Krenke, declined to comment further. The Federal Voting Assistance Program, which was designed to help both military and civilian voters abroad, is under the authority of the Defense Department. Asked whether any other government Web sites had been blocked, a Pentagon spokesman declined to comment. [...] -------------------------------------------------------- I would like some data. I am able to access the voting information web site from several different Italian domains. Can some other people living outside of the US try http://fvap.gov/ and say if it is blocked? I would like to check the accuracy of this IHT article and to see how widespread this blocking is. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 27 15:03:33 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:03:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040927150333.3841.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Yes, but think of how petty Bush is. With what is brewing in Iraq, he is pushing a federal amendment banning gay marriage? Aren't his priorities arbitrary and capricious? Bush is being like his father was with the flag burning amendment. Sure, we know how wedge politics are supposed to be but such pettiness is comically disproportionate. >Unlike those brilliant people who believe anything that comes >out of Kerry's mouth? Kerry doesn't even believe himself. :-) --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 15:24:51 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:24:51 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Seems to work from Spain -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps Sent: lunes, 27 de septiembre de 2004 18:01 To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... I would like some data. I am able to access the voting information web site from several different Italian domains. Can some other people living outside of the US try http://fvap.gov/ and say if it is blocked? I would like to check the accuracy of this IHT article and to see how widespread this blocking is. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.764 / Virus Database: 511 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Mon Sep 27 15:32:04 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:32:04 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <628AB777-109A-11D9-AF08-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> I think the block was removed a few days ago. best, patrick On 27 Sep 2004, at 17:24, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Seems to work from Spain > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Sent: lunes, 27 de septiembre de 2004 18:01 > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 > elections... > > > > I would like some data. I am able to access the voting information > web site from several different Italian domains. Can some other > people living outside of the US try > > http://fvap.gov/ > > and say if it is blocked? I would like to check the accuracy of this > IHT article and to see how widespread this blocking is. > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.764 / Virus Database: 511 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Tue Sep 28 00:40:52 2004 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 01:40:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4158B314.6010407@optusnet.com.au> > > I would like some data. I am able to access the voting information > web site from several different Italian domains. Can some other > people living outside of the US try > > http://fvap.gov/ > > and say if it is blocked? I would like to check the accuracy of this > IHT article and to see how widespread this blocking is. > > > Amara > Seems to work ok from optusnet in Australia. -David From extropy at unreasonable.com Mon Sep 27 16:08:18 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:08:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dramatic goof Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927120707.0555be98@unreasonable.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/27/politics/27nukes.html?pagewanted=print&position= U.S. Plans to Offer Guidance for a Dirty-Bomb Aftermath >The radiation scientist said, "Do you really want to shut down the port of >Seattle because you don't want to get 5 or 10 million millirem of dose? Do >you want to economically cripple an entire country because of that, an >infinitesimally small risk, if it is any risk at all?" Once again, journalists demonstrate their ignorance and low standards for accuracy. I wonder what number the scientist actually said. -- David Lubkin. From sjvans at ameritech.net Mon Sep 27 16:22:49 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:22:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dramatic goof In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927120707.0555be98@unreasonable.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927120707.0555be98@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <1096302169.1060.26.camel@Renfield> On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 11:08, David Lubkin wrote: > Once again, journalists demonstrate their ignorance and low standards for > accuracy. I wonder what number the scientist actually said. Probably said 5 to 10 millirem, without the million, which *would* be an insignificant dose. From sjvans at ameritech.net Mon Sep 27 16:44:11 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:44:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dramatic goof In-Reply-To: <1096302169.1060.26.camel@Renfield> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927120707.0555be98@unreasonable.com> <1096302169.1060.26.camel@Renfield> Message-ID: <1096303450.1060.42.camel@Renfield> It is rare for me to send a letter to the editor, but I couldn't resist this time: In the story on: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/27/politics/27nukes.html?pagewanted=print&position= The quote could not possibly have been "5 or 10 million millirem" of radiation being insignificant. That is not insignificant; it is massively lethal. I suspect the person in question said "5 or 10 millirem" which is insignificant and much more in line with what a "dirty bomb" would do. Even a conventional jacketed "dirty" hydrogen bomb would only give a does as high as 5 or 10 million millirem in areas that had already been obliterated by blast. I must say that I am very disappointed in the scientific literacy of Times reporters assigned to scientific stories. Even the slightest understanding of how radiation is measured would have prevented this. Did Walter Sullivan live in vain? S.J. Van Sickle From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Sep 27 17:01:16 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040927170116.94225.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> They said it's a humiliation for some Americans, not for America as a whole. And they're right: there are some Americans who are humiliated that other Americans have enough cause to mistrust the ostensibly world-class American voting process that they feel it necessary to bring in foreign observers. --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > > Note that the OSCE is there at the request of some > US congressmen > and the State Department, so it's hardly an > "humiliation" for American > people as slashdot says. > > Alfio > > On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > >Slashdot, September 27, 2004: The United States is > known as being the > >world's most stable democracy. But since the > Florida 2000 fiasco, > >things have changed. Europe's famous Organisation > for Security and > >Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will now be > monitoring the U.S. > >elections. The institution normally monitors > elections in third world > >countries in transition, and in crisis areas or > regions where civil > >wars have destabilized the political process. In > november, the OSCE > >will be monitoring local and state elections in > Kazakhstan, Skopje, > >Eastern Congo, Ouagadougou and... the United > States. As the BBC > >reports, for some Americans this comes as a > humiliation; others see it > >as a necessity, since they have lost trust in the > American election > >process. > >The BBC article says: There have certainly been > objections to the > >involvement of foreign monitors in the domestic > affairs of a country > >which sees itself as a beacon of democracy. Of > course the discussion > >of Slashdot is more heated. > >http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/26/2217230&tid=226&tid=103&tid=219 > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Sep 27 17:06:08 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:06:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Now Virgin to offer trips to space In-Reply-To: <470a3c520409270438360fb446@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040927170608.83412.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > >From CNN: British entrepreneur Richard Branson has > announced his > company has signed a deal to offer the world's first > commercial > flights to space under the branding "Virgin > Galactic." He told the > news conference: "We hope to create thousands of > astronauts over the > next few years and bring alive their dream of seeing > the majestic > beauty of our planet from above, the stars in all > their glory and the > amazing sensation of weightlessness." > http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/27/branson.space/ What really matters is whether they have any spacecraft. Checking the story, they appear to be intending to get some from Mojave Aerospace Ventures, which in turn is owned by Paul Allen and is trying to license tech from Scaled Composites. I was wondering if anyone was going to take their tech to production... From sjvans at ameritech.net Mon Sep 27 17:20:12 2004 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen J. Van Sickle) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:20:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040927170116.94225.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040927170116.94225.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1096305611.1060.47.camel@Renfield> Bah. It's not humiliating, it's funny. Who do you think trained those observers? The US already has the most closely watched elections in the world. Never notice all those poll watchers? Never been to a polling place without at least one, usually two, often more. And they think a handful of Europeans will make a demonstrable difference? In their dreams. On Mon, 2004-09-27 at 12:01, Adrian Tymes wrote: > They said it's a humiliation for some Americans, not > for America as a whole. And they're right: there are > some Americans who are humiliated that other Americans > have enough cause to mistrust the ostensibly > world-class American voting process that they feel it > necessary to bring in foreign observers. > > --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > > > > > Note that the OSCE is there at the request of some > > US congressmen > > and the State Department, so it's hardly an > > "humiliation" for American > > people as slashdot says. > > > > Alfio > > > > On Mon, 27 Sep 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > > > >Slashdot, September 27, 2004: The United States is > > known as being the > > >world's most stable democracy. But since the > > Florida 2000 fiasco, > > >things have changed. Europe's famous Organisation > > for Security and > > >Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will now be > > monitoring the U.S. > > >elections. The institution normally monitors > > elections in third world > > >countries in transition, and in crisis areas or > > regions where civil > > >wars have destabilized the political process. In > > november, the OSCE > > >will be monitoring local and state elections in > > Kazakhstan, Skopje, > > >Eastern Congo, Ouagadougou and... the United > > States. As the BBC > > >reports, for some Americans this comes as a > > humiliation; others see it > > >as a necessity, since they have lost trust in the > > American election > > >process. > > >The BBC article says: There have certainly been > > objections to the > > >involvement of foreign monitors in the domestic > > affairs of a country > > >which sees itself as a beacon of democracy. Of > > course the discussion > > >of Slashdot is more heated. > > > >http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/26/2217230&tid=226&tid=103&tid=219 > > >_______________________________________________ > > >extropy-chat mailing list > > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Sep 27 17:16:25 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:16:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <1F972A3D-1065-11D9-AE9E-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <1F972A3D-1065-11D9-AE9E-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040927121513.01c9f040@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:10 AM 9/27/2004 +0200, Patrick wrote: >>Police in the Altai autonomous region were on a routine patrol >>in the woods when they spotted the boy in front of an abandoned >>house with the elderly dog. >What did they do with the dog? The dog was already spotted. Damien Broderick From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Sep 27 17:37:46 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:37:46 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Now Virgin to offer trips to space In-Reply-To: <20040927170608.83412.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Check their website, http://www.virgingalactic.com/ -----Original Message----- http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/27/branson.space/ What really matters is whether they have any spacecraft. Checking the story, they appear to be intending to get some from Mojave Aerospace Ventures, which in turn is owned by Paul Allen and is trying to license tech from Scaled Composites. I was wondering if anyone was going to take their tech to production... --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.764 / Virus Database: 511 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 17:38:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040927150333.3841.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040927173816.50179.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > > Yes, but think of how petty Bush is. With what is brewing in Iraq, he > is pushing a federal amendment banning gay marriage? Aren't his > priorities arbitrary and capricious? Bush is being like his father > was with the flag burning amendment. Sure, we know how wedge politics > are supposed to be but such pettiness is comically disproportionate. As petty as Johnson, who pushed through his Great Society? or Roosevelt who pushed through radical restructuring of the US economy during WWII that fulfilled many socialist goals, including the Current Payments Tax Act, which mandated all employers be the tax collector for their employees and allowed the federal government to collect interest on withheld income prior to tax day, whereas in previous years taxpayers paid at the END of the tax year. The change in the rules confused so many people that the number who reported taxes, whether they actually had to or not, rose in one year from 6 million to 22 million. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 17:42:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040927170116.94225.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040927174222.89433.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > They said it's a humiliation for some Americans, not > for America as a whole. And they're right: there are > some Americans who are humiliated that other Americans > have enough cause to mistrust the ostensibly > world-class American voting process that they feel it > necessary to bring in foreign observers. Funny how those of us who have known that Democratic strongholds like Chicago have been corrupt to the core for decades but have not sought outside observers (though I doubt any of these will spend any time overseeing Daley's recrowning). ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Mon Sep 27 18:07:41 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:07:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler Message-ID: <20040927180741.3C92157E2A@finney.org> Emlyn wrote: > Why isn't all of terrestrial biology usable as proof? It makes a pretty > solid proof of concept as far as I'm concerned. The problem is that by itself, biology is only a proof of concept of biology, or perhaps of biotech. But nanotech claims to go beyond biotech (or else it would not deserve a different name). It proposes for example to do construction in a vacuum, which Drexler calls a eutectic environment. It proposes to do chemistry using mechanosynthesis. It proposes the construction of a range of products which biology has never produced, and which probably can't be produced by biology. If all nanotech could do was what biology can do, then it would not be nearly as exciting and revolutionary. So there must be limits to how much biology can be said to be a proof of the nanotech concept. Similarly John Clark wrote: > I respect Smalley, having a Nobel Prize and all, but I would be much more > impressed with his argument that assembling macro sized objects with atomic > precision if fundamentally imposable if I didn't know of a pretty damn good > counterexample to his thesis, life. Granted Drexler proposes a different way > to do it, but I find it difficult to believe that random mutation and > natural selection just happened to stumble onto the one and only way to > go about it; I have a hunch intelligence can do better. Smalley does not say that "assembling macro sized objects with atomic precision is fundamentally impossible". I'm sure he is aware of the existence of living organisms. Smalley specifically criticizes Drexler's design proposals using assembler arms to produce the kinds of products described in Engines of Creation. In his debate with Drexler, http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/8148/8148counterpoint.html, Smalley discusses the limits of ribosomes for assembly (in an apparent misunderstanding of Drexler's point, a point which I have never seen satisfactorily explained [1]). Hal [1] Drexler: "In particular, you have described molecular assemblers as having multiple 'fingers' that manipulate individual atoms and suffer from so-called fat finger and sticky finger problems, and you have dismissed their feasibility on this basis. I find this puzzling because, like enzymes and ribosomes, proposed assemblers neither have nor need these 'Smalley fingers.' The task of positioning reactive molecules simply doesn't require them." From natashavita at earthlink.net Mon Sep 27 19:14:00 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 15:14:00 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy Message-ID: <136130-22004912719140720@M2W094.mail2web.com> DB wrote: >The dog was already spotted. Haha ! -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 19:49:30 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:49:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <136130-22004912719140720@M2W094.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040927194930.99113.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> I'm sure she's relieved to finally be rid of this pup that will never seem to grow up. Being a mom to the same pup for 49 dog years? --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > DB wrote: > > >The dog was already spotted. > > Haha ! > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 19:52:18 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:52:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Now Virgin to offer trips to space In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040927195218.72828.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Check their website, http://www.virgingalactic.com/ As opposed to Sean O'Keefe's Space Ship Surplus and Junk Yard: http://www.space.com/images/h_ksc_frances_02.jpg ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 27 23:39:31 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Pro-cloning talking point In-Reply-To: <20040927041334.13850.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040927233931.29517.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > I made the > following argument in defense of cloning research, > in > retaliation to religious "we should not play God" > comments. You make some good points. I have of late been pursuing a similar strategy of using theological arguments in favor of therapeutic cloning and other life extension technologies. This is I believe, the best strategy to defeat the Luddites. Essentially one has to defend these technologies by staying within their own religious paradigms. Otherwise, mere logic will be lost on them, because they won't believe your premises. I have researched and compiled quite a lot of references from the bible, the koran, and other religious sources that supports transhumanist views on these technologies. When I am done, I will write a comprehensive essay on them and submit them to the ExI list. I believe that in order win over public opinion and support for our endeavors, we must try to embrace and assimilate spirituality and religion instead of trying to antagonize it as many on this list have done in the past. It doesn't really matter if you actually believe it, so long as you are willing to exploit it. In this vein, I have been working toward a concept of "spiritual transhumanism" which lays the framework for achieving our goals without pissing off God and his faithful. Hell, if as an extropian, I am going to be accused of being a cultist anyways, I might as well try to start a cult. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 00:26:36 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nuclear batteries for hand-helds Message-ID: <20040928002636.65442.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904nuc.html "Nuclear batteries can pack in energy at densities THOUSANDS OF TIMES greater than those of lithium-ion batteries" http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904nuct1.html " For these batteries, which we call radioactive piezoelectric generators, the radioactive source is a 4-square-millimeter thin film of nickel-63 [see illustration, "Power From Within"]. On top of it, we cantilever a small rectangular piece of silicon, its free end able to move up and down. As the electrons fly from the radioactive source, they travel across the air gap and hit the cantilever, charging it negatively. The source, which is positively charged, then attracts the cantilever, bending it down. A piece of piezoelectric material bonded to the top of the silicon cantilever bends along with it. The mechanical stress of the bend unbalances the charge distribution inside the piezoelectric crystal structure, producing a voltage in electrodes attached to the top and bottom of the crystal. After a brief period?whose length depends on the shape and material of the cantilever and the initial size of the gap?the cantilever comes close enough to the source to discharge the accumulated electrons by direct contact. The discharge can also take place through tunneling or gas breakdown. At that moment, electrons flow back to the source, and the electrostatic attractive force vanishes. The cantilever then springs back and oscillates like a diving board after a diver jumps, and the recurring mechanical deformation of the piezoelectric plate produces a series of electric pulses. The charge-discharge cycle of the cantilever repeats continuously, and the resulting electric pulses can be rectified and smoothed to provide direct-current electricity. Using this cantilever-based power source, we recently built a self-powered light sensor [see photo, "It's Got the Power"]. The device contains a simple processor connected to a photodiode that detects light variations. " " For example, with 10 milligrams of polonium-210 (contained in about 1 cubic millimeter), a nuclear microbattery could produce 50 milliwatts of electric power for more than four months (the half-life of polonium-210 is 138 days). With that level of power, it would be possible to run a simple microprocessor and a handful of sensors for all those months. And the conversion efficiency won't be stuck at 4 percent forever. Beginning this past July we started working to boost the efficiency to 20 percent, as part of a new Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency program called Radio Isotope Micro-power Sources. " ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Sep 28 01:13:37 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:13:37 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040927120707.0555be98@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: This for those of you who still believe that the Republicans are the party of small government and for those of you who have issues with states that rely on the federal government for handouts. http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/09/red_states_feed.html B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 01:23:25 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nuclear batteries for hand-helds In-Reply-To: <20040928002636.65442.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928012325.96996.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, but even if these are easily shielded, how to prevent people from cracking open the batteries, removing the radioactive bits, and concentrating them into the warhead of a dirty nuclear bomb? The members of this list know how ridiculous the chances of that are, and how minimal the threat would be. But try selling that to the luddite public who would want to ban this. --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904nuc.html > > "Nuclear batteries can pack in energy at densities > THOUSANDS OF TIMES > greater than those of lithium-ion batteries" > > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904nuct1.html > > " For these batteries, which we call radioactive > piezoelectric > generators, the radioactive source is a > 4-square-millimeter thin film > of nickel-63 [see illustration, "Power From > Within"]. On top of it, we > cantilever a small rectangular piece of silicon, its > free end able to > move up and down. As the electrons fly from the > radioactive source, > they travel across the air gap and hit the > cantilever, charging it > negatively. The source, which is positively charged, > then attracts the > cantilever, bending it down. > > A piece of piezoelectric material bonded to the top > of the silicon > cantilever bends along with it. The mechanical > stress of the bend > unbalances the charge distribution inside the > piezoelectric crystal > structure, producing a voltage in electrodes > attached to the top and > bottom of the crystal. > > After a brief period?whose length depends on the > shape and material of > the cantilever and the initial size of the gap?the > cantilever comes > close enough to the source to discharge the > accumulated electrons by > direct contact. The discharge can also take place > through tunneling or > gas breakdown. At that moment, electrons flow back > to the source, and > the electrostatic attractive force vanishes. The > cantilever then > springs back and oscillates like a diving board > after a diver jumps, > and the recurring mechanical deformation of the > piezoelectric plate > produces a series of electric pulses. > > The charge-discharge cycle of the cantilever repeats > continuously, and > the resulting electric pulses can be rectified and > smoothed to provide > direct-current electricity. Using this > cantilever-based power source, > we recently built a self-powered light sensor [see > photo, "It's Got the > Power"]. The device contains a simple processor > connected to a > photodiode that detects light variations. " > > " For example, with 10 milligrams of polonium-210 > (contained in about 1 > cubic millimeter), a nuclear microbattery could > produce 50 milliwatts > of electric power for more than four months (the > half-life of > polonium-210 is 138 days). With that level of power, > it would be > possible to run a simple microprocessor and a > handful of sensors for > all those months. > > And the conversion efficiency won't be stuck at 4 > percent forever. > Beginning this past July we started working to boost > the efficiency to > 20 percent, as part of a new Defense Advanced > Research Projects Agency > program called Radio Isotope Micro-power Sources. " > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download > now. > http://messenger.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 01:35:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:35:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040928013551.51097.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brent Neal wrote: > This for those of you who still believe that the Republicans are the > party of small government and for those of you who have issues with > states that rely on the federal government for handouts. > > http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/09/red_states_feed.html I'll note that NH gets the third least amount of federal money ($0.68) for each federal tax dollar paid. We don't have seat belt laws, we don't have helmet laws, we tell the feds with regularity to keep their stinking federal money. We also don't like paying state taxes either. We've cut state property tax rates by 40% in the last two years under GOP Governor Criag Benson (after Democrat Gov. Jeanne Shaheen invented them and tacked them at $6.00 per thousand valuation, all while she doubled our state budget while she was in office). Now, what this study really means is that people in republican states figure out how to pay as little in taxes as possible. People in democrat states stupidly believe it's their duty to pay as much as possible in taxes. Most money coming from the feds going to the states is the apportioned by per capita population, so it is irrelevant how much each state pays in taxes. Another thing it indicates is income distribution. Since almost half the population pays absolutely no income taxes, this study can indicate the states where most of the non-income-tax-paying person are, and that they tend to vote for Bush. Elitist snobby east coast liberals turn such people off. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 01:37:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nuclear batteries for hand-helds In-Reply-To: <20040928012325.96996.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928013702.46059.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> For the same reason that terrorists don't try to do the same thing with smoke detectors or tritium exit signs, both products which are widely used and are found in most people's homes and workplaces.... --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > Ah, but even if these are easily shielded, how to > prevent people from cracking open the batteries, > removing the radioactive bits, and concentrating them > into the warhead of a dirty nuclear bomb? > > The members of this list know how ridiculous the > chances of that are, and how minimal the threat would > be. But try selling that to the luddite public who > would want to ban this. > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904nuc.html > > > > "Nuclear batteries can pack in energy at densities > > THOUSANDS OF TIMES > > greater than those of lithium-ion batteries" > > > > > http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/WEBONLY/publicfeature/sep04/0904nuct1.html > > > > " For these batteries, which we call radioactive > > piezoelectric > > generators, the radioactive source is a > > 4-square-millimeter thin film > > of nickel-63 [see illustration, "Power From > > Within"]. On top of it, we > > cantilever a small rectangular piece of silicon, its > > free end able to > > move up and down. As the electrons fly from the > > radioactive source, > > they travel across the air gap and hit the > > cantilever, charging it > > negatively. The source, which is positively charged, > > then attracts the > > cantilever, bending it down. > > > > A piece of piezoelectric material bonded to the top > > of the silicon > > cantilever bends along with it. The mechanical > > stress of the bend > > unbalances the charge distribution inside the > > piezoelectric crystal > > structure, producing a voltage in electrodes > > attached to the top and > > bottom of the crystal. > > > > After a brief period?whose length depends on the > > shape and material of > > the cantilever and the initial size of the gap?the > > cantilever comes > > close enough to the source to discharge the > > accumulated electrons by > > direct contact. The discharge can also take place > > through tunneling or > > gas breakdown. At that moment, electrons flow back > > to the source, and > > the electrostatic attractive force vanishes. The > > cantilever then > > springs back and oscillates like a diving board > > after a diver jumps, > > and the recurring mechanical deformation of the > > piezoelectric plate > > produces a series of electric pulses. > > > > The charge-discharge cycle of the cantilever repeats > > continuously, and > > the resulting electric pulses can be rectified and > > smoothed to provide > > direct-current electricity. Using this > > cantilever-based power source, > > we recently built a self-powered light sensor [see > > photo, "It's Got the > > Power"]. The device contains a simple processor > > connected to a > > photodiode that detects light variations. " > > > > " For example, with 10 milligrams of polonium-210 > > (contained in about 1 > > cubic millimeter), a nuclear microbattery could > > produce 50 milliwatts > > of electric power for more than four months (the > > half-life of > > polonium-210 is 138 days). With that level of power, > > it would be > > possible to run a simple microprocessor and a > > handful of sensors for > > all those months. > > > > And the conversion efficiency won't be stuck at 4 > > percent forever. > > Beginning this past July we started working to boost > > the efficiency to > > 20 percent, as part of a new Defense Advanced > > Research Projects Agency > > program called Radio Isotope Micro-power Sources. " > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > > human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > > slaves." > > -William > > Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: > > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > _______________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download > > now. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 01:40:58 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:40:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nuclear batteries for hand-helds In-Reply-To: <20040928013702.46059.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928014058.20108.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> I say again: But try selling that to the luddite public who would want to ban this. --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > For the same reason that terrorists don't try to do > the same thing with > smoke detectors or tritium exit signs, both products > which are widely > used and are found in most people's homes and > workplaces.... > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > Ah, but even if these are easily shielded, how to > > prevent people from cracking open the batteries, > > removing the radioactive bits, and concentrating > them > > into the warhead of a dirty nuclear bomb? > > > > The members of this list know how ridiculous the > > chances of that are, and how minimal the threat > would > > be. But try selling that to the luddite public > who > > would want to ban this. From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 01:43:35 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:13:35 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <20040927194930.99113.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <136130-22004912719140720@M2W094.mail2web.com> <20040927194930.99113.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc040927184361225e36@mail.gmail.com> Yes, and the pup probably seemed pretty stupid. It wouldn't have understood a lot of basic doggy stuff. It would have been clumsy, too, and have had a terrible sense of smell and hearing. In the dog world, human beings would be sorely in need of an uplift. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:49:30 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > I'm sure she's relieved to finally be rid of this pup that will never > seem to grow up. Being a mom to the same pup for 49 dog years? > > > > --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > > > DB wrote: > > > > >The dog was already spotted. > > > > Haha ! > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > mail2web - Check your email from the web at > > http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 01:52:03 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:22:03 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nuclear batteries for hand-helds In-Reply-To: <20040928014058.20108.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040928013702.46059.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <20040928014058.20108.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409271852554516f7@mail.gmail.com> A good start would be to call them anything but Nuclear Batteries. Maybe Neutron emission batteries? Hmm... After all, smoke detectors aren't called Nuclear Smoke Detectors. Imagine the outcry if they were called that! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:40:58 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > I say again: > > But try selling that to the luddite public who would > want to ban this. > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > For the same reason that terrorists don't try to do > > > > the same thing with > > smoke detectors or tritium exit signs, both products > > which are widely > > used and are found in most people's homes and > > workplaces.... > > > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > > Ah, but even if these are easily shielded, how to > > > prevent people from cracking open the batteries, > > > removing the radioactive bits, and concentrating > > them > > > into the warhead of a dirty nuclear bomb? > > > > > > The members of this list know how ridiculous the > > > chances of that are, and how minimal the threat > > would > > > be. But try selling that to the luddite public > > who > > > would want to ban this. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 02:03:23 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nuclear batteries for hand-helds In-Reply-To: <20040928014058.20108.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928020323.77632.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Look at it this way: a) you can already buy americium components through electronic component vendors b) any end user product that would have one of these things in it would cost a lot more money than the 5-20 microcuries is worth on the black market. The labor to get this material out of the product would be even more. c) it is therefore much more cost effective to go get some on the black market in bulk. There is more of a hazard from people throwing them in landfills in bulk quantities. --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > I say again: > > But try selling that to the luddite public who would > want to ban this. > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > For the same reason that terrorists don't try to do > > the same thing with > > smoke detectors or tritium exit signs, both products > > which are widely > > used and are found in most people's homes and > > workplaces.... > > > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > > Ah, but even if these are easily shielded, how to > > > prevent people from cracking open the batteries, > > > removing the radioactive bits, and concentrating > > them > > > into the warhead of a dirty nuclear bomb? > > > > > > The members of this list know how ridiculous the > > > chances of that are, and how minimal the threat > > would > > > be. But try selling that to the luddite public > > who > > > would want to ban this. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 02:04:48 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:04:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Nuclear batteries for hand-helds In-Reply-To: <710b78fc0409271852554516f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040928020448.77917.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> I wouldn't even do that. I'd just call them recharging modules and leave it at that. --- Emlyn wrote: > A good start would be to call them anything but Nuclear Batteries. > Maybe Neutron emission batteries? Hmm... After all, smoke detectors > aren't called Nuclear Smoke Detectors. Imagine the outcry if they > were > called that! > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * > > > > > On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 18:40:58 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes > wrote: > > I say again: > > > > But try selling that to the luddite public who would > > want to ban this. > > > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > > For the same reason that terrorists don't try to do > > > > > > > the same thing with > > > smoke detectors or tritium exit signs, both products > > > which are widely > > > used and are found in most people's homes and > > > workplaces.... > > > > > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > > > > Ah, but even if these are easily shielded, how to > > > > prevent people from cracking open the batteries, > > > > removing the radioactive bits, and concentrating > > > them > > > > into the warhead of a dirty nuclear bomb? > > > > > > > > The members of this list know how ridiculous the > > > > chances of that are, and how minimal the threat > > > would > > > > be. But try selling that to the luddite public > > > who > > > > would want to ban this. > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From emlynoregan at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 02:32:27 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:02:27 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040925123433.35012.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040925123433.35012.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04092719327d89aa54@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 05:34:33 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Amara Graps wrote: > > > I think you are reading far more into the pieces. On the second > > article: with a bit of tongue-in-cheek about nonUS citizens right to > > vote in US elections, the author was pointing out that US foreign > > policy affects many more people than just US citizens and that Bush > > words of democracy should be looked at carefully. > > Nothing earth-shattering here. > > > > What I notice is no one acknowledging the fact that people who have > > the *most * experience with US' foreign policy (with the exception of > > the dead Iraqis and soldiers) are the US armed forces and US citizens > > living abroad. Ask yourself why the Bush administration recently > > started restricting November 2 voting information for those US > > citizens. > > Theft of US citizens vital papers is a common occurence in foreign > nations where burglary, purse snatching, pick pocketing, mugging, and > auto theft are at epidemic rates (including places like Italy, fer > instance). Left wingers here are encouraging foreigners to victimize US > citizens they know to get their vital papers so that they may commit > voter fraud. > > This is in keeping with the overall movement by the left to create a > new proletariat of non-anglo immigrants who are easier to disaffect, > disillusion, and disenfranchise by unrestricted illegal immigration. > > You especially, Amara, should lock up whatever US credentials you may have. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism Mike, you forgot your medication again. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 02:36:20 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 19:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] On the communication of moral wisdom In-Reply-To: <20040927233931.29517.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928023620.83134.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > This is I believe, the > best strategy to defeat the Luddites. Essentially > one > has to defend these technologies by staying within > their own religious paradigms. Otherwise, mere logic > will be lost on them, because they won't believe > your > premises. Very true. All the logic in the world doesn't matter if the facts you're arguing from are false. Many Luddites tend to think, "Because this logic proves my beliefs false, and I can not easily see any flaws in the logic itself, the easiest path - dismissing the facts the logic is based on - must be the correct path." Arguing from facts they defend disallows this. > I have researched and compiled quite a lot > of references from the bible, the koran, and other > religious sources that supports transhumanist views > on > these technologies. When I am done, I will write a > comprehensive essay on them and submit them to the > ExI > list. I am not sure that would do much good. Religious types are already used to people invoking passages of their texts out of context to defend all manner of views, and have developed memetic defenses against this. After all, they do it themselves. ("Even Satan can quote scripture.") It might be better to defend this from the core concepts that the religions share, than to seek out specific sayings. > I believe that in order win over public > opinion > and support for our endeavors, we must try to > embrace > and assimilate spirituality and religion instead of > trying to antagonize it as many on this list have > done > in the past. It doesn't really matter if you > actually > believe it, so long as you are willing to exploit > it. Or at least cite it as not inconsistent. "I might not believe as you do about God, but it doesn't matter. I won't bore you with why this is the right way if you don't believe in God, but here is why this is the right way if you do believe in God." > In this vein, I have been working toward a concept > of > "spiritual transhumanism" which lays the framework > for > achieving our goals without pissing off God and his > faithful. Hell, if as an extropian, I am going to be > accused of being a cultist anyways, I might as well > try to start a cult. Maybe it would be better to view this as a mod for our beliefs. We have a well-developed main version for atheists/agnostics, but what about a belief path for Christians? For Muslims? For Buddhists? A path that their minds can follow, which gets them to support our beliefs without having to uninstall their previous memeset - and, indeed, even merging with it to draw support. (Imagine what would happen if a high-ranking bishop declared that we were created to "play God" - responsibly and so forth, since God is not irresponsible and punishes those who attempt to imitate Him without that crucial component, but within that limit...) Side note: as I've looked at various religions over the years, I've noticed that a number of their core concepts are the same. Expressed differently, and with some variations to account for the local conditions when the religion was founded (for example, dietary restrictions when eating or raising certain animals was a Bad Idea for economic or ecological reasons, in an era before economy or ecology were known), but mostly attempts to encode basic rules of civilization in forms that many people can understand. Although the main surviving ones have been successful at the basics (no surprise: else they wouldn't be around any longer), there has been a consistent problem with misinterpretation and misunderstanding. Even today, language does not fully encode moral meaning; it can attempt to inspire certain chains of thought, for instance by leading people along those chains with examples, but it can not guarantee that people will not form incorrect chains. One could not see certain steps of the chain, or find unanticipated ways of linking the steps of the example together, or incorrectly apply some example-specific qualification that makes the chain inapplicable elsewhere. And then one could simply fail to make the connection that one is supposed to apply the chain to other situations one encounters in life. So I wonder...how can one accurately express moral wisdom, given the inaccuracies with the most common method? By this I mean specific chains of thought that guide the evaluation process for actions. (In other words, one's moral wisdom is one's method of answering the question, "Should I do this?") Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, and others had this process highly developed, and sought to share what they had refined with their fellows. I keep thinking of some kind of AI notation, but every method I come up with runs into the definition problem: you can define "if X will cause harm to others, do not do X", but how does one define "harm"? Even human beings can't do that (in the same concrete sense as, say, defining "one" and "zero"). Or might it be possible to induce thoughts - say, find the brain centers responsible for forming concepts and trigger certain template paths? Hopefully, the most this could do would be to add memories of being guided through this to whatever they had, so a child could learn but an adult could not involuntarily be reprogrammed. (Although, the child would have to learn to follow the lessons first, which itself might be a problem.) Just something to think about. From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 03:34:13 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:34:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00d801c4a50c$0db71770$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Brent Neal >...The Intervarsity > Campus Crusader Hitler Youth types will turn out to "cast a > vote for Jesus" ... > -- > Brent Neal Remarkable! I didn't even know he was running. {8^D I am concerned over what happens if it again comes down to Florida and the outcome is the opposite of what most of the polls predict. With the electronic voting machines and no paper trail or receipts, this could be real trouble. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 03:52:15 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:52:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: <470a3c52040924091113aba53@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e401c4a50e$8b728580$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe > > > >From Anders Sandberg's blog... because the highminded ideas > of the report underlying the conference will be filtered through layer > after layer of EU administration and agendas. In the end the result > might well be completely opposite to the aim. The only mention of > transhumanism is indeed a dismissive mention of the US report as > causing alarms by being too transhumanistic..." > http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2004/09/prometheus_bound_i n_red_tape.html Honestly extropians, real transhumanism *needs* libertarianism. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 04:05:10 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:05:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040924232202.34981.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00e501c4a510$5f5a7500$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Trend Ologist > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and > Predictions Over Time > > > Bush does not want a draft at this time. However after > November 2nd, when he no longer need concern himself > with re-election, Bush will be free to modify his > policy towards conscription, if he so chooses. > The military at this time does not need a draft > either, yet in the past emergencies have arisen > prompting not only the C. in C. but also the Joint > Chiefs & others in the high command to alter their > plans drastically. There will be no draft regardless of who wins in November. The powers saw what happened last time we had one. The army has been investing in force multipliers ever since. Draftees would likely end up being more liability than asset. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 04:55:58 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 21:55:58 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20040926085925.0331e870@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00fb01c4a517$754a4910$6501a8c0@SHELLY> A passage that looked like it was from Amara, but sounded more like Natasha: I'm not a fan of Ed Regis, and I have been disturbed by his articles and books. His book on transhumans was quite weak. It was a book about cryonics and nanotechnology and culture, not transhumans, per se. I wish he had not used the word "transhuman" so loosely, in deference to FM-2030 who was teaching about transhumanity at the time Ed wrote this book and who Ed didn't mention, but freely borrowed the ideas... Ed Regis was at the first west coast nanocon in about 1990 I think it was. The Mambo Chicken had just hit the presses. That one was kinda fun, not terribly insightful. James Gleick tried a futurist tone with Faster, another book that way missed the mark, which surprised me, since his other work was very good. Methinks the best mainstream press about transhumanism is still the stellar work The Spike, by our own Dr. Broderick. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 05:07:27 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 22:07:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <1F972A3D-1065-11D9-AE9E-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <012a01c4a519$0cdfde60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > > > > http://www.onlypunjab.com/real/fullstory-newsID-2203.html > > > > Siberian boy 'brought up by dog' > Patrick Wilken > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy > > > What did they do with the dog? > > best, patrick Took him to a meeting of Parents Without Partners? {8^D spike From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 05:50:14 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:50:14 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: <00e401c4a50e$8b728580$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <470a3c52040924091113aba53@mail.gmail.com> <00e401c4a50e$8b728580$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <470a3c5204092722505d52901d@mail.gmail.com> I really wish we could stop seeing things in black and white. The world is a complex place, if we get our way it will be even more complex not less, and there is no easy naive -ism with all the answers. In some cases the "answer" can be some element of libertarianism, it other cases it can be some element of (horror) social-democracy, in most cases it will be some mix of both. G. On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:52:15 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe > > > > > > >From Anders Sandberg's blog... because the highminded ideas > > of the report underlying the conference will be filtered through layer > > after layer of EU administration and agendas. In the end the result > > might well be completely opposite to the aim. The only mention of > > transhumanism is indeed a dismissive mention of the US report as > > causing alarms by being too transhumanistic..." > > http://www.aleph.se/andart/archives/2004/09/prometheus_bound_i > n_red_tape.html > > > Honestly extropians, real transhumanism *needs* libertarianism. > > spike > > From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 06:42:28 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] On the communication of moral wisdom In-Reply-To: <20040928023620.83134.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928064228.89411.qmail@web60507.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > I am not sure that would do much good. Religious > types are already used to people invoking passages > of > their texts out of context to defend all manner of > views, and have developed memetic defenses against > this. After all, they do it themselves. ("Even > Satan > can quote scripture.") It might be better to defend > this from the core concepts that the religions > share, > than to seek out specific sayings. Actually this is exactly what I have planned. It argues from the theological basis of the religion. It will only cite specific passages for "color". > Maybe it would be better to view this as a mod for > our > beliefs. We have a well-developed main version for > atheists/agnostics, but what about a belief path for > Christians? For Muslims? For Buddhists? A path > that > their minds can follow, which gets them to support > our > beliefs without having to uninstall their previous > memeset - and, indeed, even merging with it to draw > support. (Imagine what would happen if a > high-ranking > bishop declared that we were created to "play God" - > responsibly and so forth, since God is not > irresponsible and punishes those who attempt to > imitate Him without that crucial component, but > within > that limit...) This is a great idea. Instead of a single essay, I will write several. Each one aimed at a specific religion/memeset. Expect Christianity 2.0 soon. > Side note: as I've looked at various religions over > the years, I've noticed that a number of their core > concepts are the same. Expressed differently, and > with some variations to account for the local > conditions when the religion was founded (for > example, > dietary restrictions when eating or raising certain > animals was a Bad Idea for economic or ecological > reasons, in an era before economy or ecology were > known), but mostly attempts to encode basic rules of > civilization in forms that many people can > understand. Yes, these similarities are the moral truths that validate the exercise of spirituality in its myriad forms in transhumaism. The rest is mythology but myth too has some memtic worth else it would have been forgotten. > So I wonder...how can one accurately express moral > wisdom, given the inaccuracies with the most common > method? I agree this will be challenging. It ought to be tried anyways most especially considering the disasters looming on the horizon. > Just something to think about. Indeed, you have given me much food for thought. Thank you. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 06:44:50 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:44:50 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Economist on cognitive enhancement Message-ID: <470a3c520409272344189b19c7@mail.gmail.com> >From the Economist's Technology Quarterly: Supercharging the brain - New drugs promise to improve memory and sharpen mental response. Who should be allowed to take them? Within a few years, you may have the option of taking a "cognitive enhancer" - a drug that sharpens your mental faculties. Much progress has been made in understanding the processes of memory and cognition. Advances in genetics, molecular biology and brain-imaging technologies allowed researchers to scrutinise the brain's workings and gave them the potential to create drugs to enhance aspects of its performance. Though there are very few products on the market that reflect this increased understanding, that may soon change. But there is a fine line between curing the ill and enhancing the well. The gradual deterioration of mental faculties is part of the natural process of ageing. There are now about 85m people aged 50 and over in America, many of whom may already fit the definition of "age-related cognitive decline", a category so vague it includes people who become distressed over such mild glitches as forgetting their keys or glasses. Should they be offered "cognitive enhancers" too? This question is left unanswered by the paper, which offers a bird view of current and planned developments in cognitive enhancement. http://www.economist.com/science/tq/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3171454 From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 06:12:50 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:12:50 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: <042201c4a467$475efa10$97f44d0c@hal2001> References: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> <042201c4a467$475efa10$97f44d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927230727.0292be98@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Richard Dawkins makes this point abundantly in the books he writes. An example is the vertebrate eye. An engineered eye would put the layers (as seen from the lens) as retina, nerves, blood vessels. The vertebrate eye is backwards, and we have the bind spot where the nerves must pass through the retina to the brain. Unfortunately, there is no way back by the traditional evolutionary process due to the disadvantages of poor or nonexistent sight which were went through at the time Chordata evolved. > but I find it difficult to believe that random mutation and>natural selection just >happened to stumble onto the one and only way to>go about it; I have a hunch >intelligence can do better. >John K Clark jonkc at att.net ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 06:40:05 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:40:05 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <20040927112627.35212.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <8D946223-1040-11D9-9C1F-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> <20040927112627.35212.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927231509.029be008@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Not quite.... The cold water is denser than the warm and must be lifted before dilution. The volumes needed are substantial. (If the surface temperature is 25deg C {78.5 degF) and the temperature at 100 meters is 5 deg C (41 degF) the needed lift is about a meter, assuming a linear temperature gradient. If you do a 10x dilution, the energy cost is about 27 Kwh per square kilometer. 1 million km^2 is probably needed. This is a negligible heat load but a significant ($2.7 million at $100 /Mwh) power cost for the lifting alone. I doubt that air bubbles would be even 10% efficient, and the numbers I selected are deliberately low - surface temperatures of 90 degF are common.) > > Where do you dump the very substantial waste heat from the pumping > > operation? This idea reads as thermodynamically untenable to me. > >If it were so, then OTEC systems could never generate any power. Fact >is that the pumping generates negligible waste heat, and even then, the >secret is *DILUTION*. >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 06:53:47 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:53:47 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] A liquid that freezes when heated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927235021.0292f698@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Fire sprinkler systems often use fuzible links to open the valves above a certain temperature - independent of any external power. I can see biotech labs with culture media with the reverse requirement, a "too cool" alarm system. > >It freezes when heated, and when cooled, melts. Pretty neat. > >http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/9/15 > >Any ideas on it's usefulness? >"Kevin Freels" ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 06:57:21 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:57:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <20040927194930.99113.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <136130-22004912719140720@M2W094.mail2web.com> <20040927194930.99113.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927235557.0295bb38@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> The capacity to learn any language at all closes down at about 8 years of age, so the boy may never learn to speak. :( ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 10:05:37 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:05:37 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Always On - The case for human enhancement Message-ID: <470a3c520409280305182e8eaf@mail.gmail.com> I posted to Always On a short article titled "The case for human enhancement", with a summary of the Fukuyama's "The World's Most Dangerous Ideas - Transhumanism" on Foreign Policy and the replies of Ron Bailey and Nick Bostrom. It is interesting to watch the comments of readers of a "mainstream" magazine. A few readers have expressed opinions already, I will be watching the thread. http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=6130_0_5_0_C Francis Fukuyama, member of the President's Council on Bioethics and author of "Our Posthuman Future: Consequences of the Biotechnology Revolution" recently published an article on "The World's Most Dangerous Ideas - Transhumanism" on Foreign Policy. Replies to Fukuyama's dark views of technology enabled human enhancement have been issued by Ron Bailey and Nick Bostrom. Transhumanists support the development of and access to new technologies that enable everyone to enjoy better minds, better bodies and better lives. See the website of the World Transhumanist Association for more details. Using technology to radically enhance human capabilities is considered as a realistic medium term option by the NBIC initiative : "the convergence of nanoscience, biotechnology, information technology and cognitive science ("NBIC") offers immense opportunities for the improvement of human abilities, social outcomes, the nation's productivity and its quality of life; it also represents a major new frontier in research and development" and similar initiatives in Europe. Despite "dismiss transhumanists as some sort of odd cult, nothing more than science fiction taken too seriously", which used to be the mainstream attitude, Fukuyama now acknowledges that "the new procedures and technologies emerging from research laboratories and hospitals-whether mood-altering drugs, substances to boost muscle mass or selectively erase memory, prenatal genetic screening, or gene therapy-can as easily be used to "enhance" the species as to ease or ameliorate illness". And he provides a very precise and compact definition of the transhumanist worldview: "as transhumanists see it, humans must wrest their biological destiny from evolution's blind process of random variation and adaptation and move to the next stage as a species". The issue of technology enabled human enhancement will probably someday move to the center of a stormy political debate whose outcomes will impact on the future of the biotechnology and advanced IT industries, as well as on the future of society at large. Everyone should start thinking where (s)he stands in this debate. I am in the "pro-enhancement camp", and wish to know the opinion of Always On readers. So if you have some time please browse the sources quoted above and let us know what you think. From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Tue Sep 28 12:08:13 2004 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:08:13 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <628AB777-109A-11D9-AF08-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> References: <628AB777-109A-11D9-AF08-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> Message-ID: <12B3B004-1147-11D9-AFFC-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> For more information: http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp? channel_id=2&story_id=12177 best, patrick On 27 Sep 2004, at 17:32, Patrick Wilken wrote: > I think the block was removed a few days ago. > > best, patrick > > > On 27 Sep 2004, at 17:24, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > >> Seems to work from Spain >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org >> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara >> Graps >> Sent: lunes, 27 de septiembre de 2004 18:01 >> To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 >> elections... >> >> >> >> I would like some data. I am able to access the voting information >> web site from several different Italian domains. Can some other >> people living outside of the US try >> >> http://fvap.gov/ >> >> and say if it is blocked? I would like to check the accuracy of this >> IHT article and to see how widespread this blocking is. >> --- >> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.764 / Virus Database: 511 - Release Date: 15/09/2004 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 13:17:16 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:17:16 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092722505d52901d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <015201c4a55d$7a535640$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a > Diverse Europe > > > I really wish we could stop seeing things in black and white. The > world is a complex place, if we get our way it will be even more > complex not less, and there is no easy naive -ism with all the > answers. In some cases the "answer" can be some element of > libertarianism, it other cases it can be some element of (horror) > social-democracy, in most cases it will be some mix of both. > G. OK there is a solution here that might work for everyone. Let the U.S. proceed with transhumanism under maximum libertarianism, let Europe attempt it under some element of horror social-democracy. Then we should all have a choice. Thanks Giu2i0! {8-] spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 13:25:22 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:25:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04092719327d89aa54@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040928132522.61364.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > > Mike, you forgot your medication again. I see people are suffering from memory lapse. Better get back on the ginko, Emlyn. As you may recall, the 9/11 hijacker pilots obtained counterfiet credentials based on ones stolen from airline pilots staying in Italy, which allowed them access to airports without security screening. Property crime ranges from 3-5 times higher than the US in european nations. Theft of identification is a common occurence, which is the whole reason why a company like American Express came into being. Go into any US embassy in europe and ask how many cases of identification theft they have to deal with at any given time, and whether the rate is rising. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 13:48:31 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:48:31 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927235557.0295bb38@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015401c4a561$d7ccf200$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Hara Ra! The same Hara Ra that would regale us with free entertainment at the local cryo-schmoozes? {8^D Cool, welcome back bud! We missed you. Don't go away this time. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: Hara Ra > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy > > > The capacity to learn any language at all closes down at > about 8 years of > age, so the boy may never learn to speak. :( I learned Fortran at age 16. {8-] > ================================== > = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 13:49:18 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:49:18 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092806481210e6d3@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c5204092722505d52901d@mail.gmail.com> <015201c4a55d$7a535640$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <470a3c5204092806481210e6d3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5204092806495e5ad7b1@mail.gmail.com> If this is what you want in the US, but of course! But I think a majority of people in the US would prefer some degree of public oversight on tech development to help avoiding runaway unwanted side effects. It is all a metter of appropriate degree. I don't want to restart old discussions but let's see, to me libertarianism in the good sense means "live and let live". Of course I don't object to that. But the issue is how to solve conflicts. If my neighbour wants to take craps in my garden, I want a way to solve the issue short of shooting each other. G. On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:17:16 -0700, Spike wrote: > > > Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a > > Diverse Europe > > > > > > I really wish we could stop seeing things in black and white. The > > world is a complex place, if we get our way it will be even more > > complex not less, and there is no easy naive -ism with all the > > answers. In some cases the "answer" can be some element of > > libertarianism, it other cases it can be some element of (horror) > > social-democracy, in most cases it will be some mix of both. > > G. > > OK there is a solution here that might work for everyone. > Let the U.S. proceed with transhumanism under maximum > libertarianism, let Europe attempt it under some element of > horror social-democracy. Then we should all have a > choice. Thanks Giu2i0! {8-] spike From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 13:49:28 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:49:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: <015201c4a55d$7a535640$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <470a3c5204092722505d52901d@mail.gmail.com> <015201c4a55d$7a535640$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:17:16 -0700, Spike wrote: > > OK there is a solution here that might work for everyone. > Let the U.S. proceed with transhumanism under maximum > libertarianism, let Europe attempt it under some element of > horror social-democracy. Then we should all have a > choice. Thanks Giu2i0! {8-] spike > Heh! :) I have a vision ....... The US - full of John Wayne X-Men types, worried about whether the x-ray vision beats the super-strength option. Or should they go for the bullet-proof skin, or maybe the 'run at fifty mph' option? Let's look through the Walmart upgrades catalogue, mother. Europe - A neat, tidy place where everyone has a schedule of upgrades provided by the government. To keep things fair everyone gets the super-strength upgrade. Then when that is completed, everyone moves on to the next upgrade, and so on. There will be black market upgrades, of course, but they will treated as criminals. China - The Borg, obviously. A machine-like hive mind which sweeps all before it. BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 13:57:24 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:57:24 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: References: <470a3c5204092722505d52901d@mail.gmail.com> <015201c4a55d$7a535640$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <470a3c5204092806574369ae1b@mail.gmail.com> Nice and I fear realistic thoughts Bill. Given only these three choices, I would move off-planet and look for a planet where John Wayne, Walmart and the government cooperate to develop good options for everyone. G. > The US - full of John Wayne X-Men types, worried about whether the > x-ray vision beats the super-strength option. Or should they go for > the bullet-proof skin, or maybe the 'run at fifty mph' option? Let's > look through the Walmart upgrades catalogue, mother. > > Europe - A neat, tidy place where everyone has a schedule of upgrades > provided by the government. To keep things fair everyone gets the > super-strength upgrade. Then when that is completed, everyone moves on > to the next upgrade, and so on. There will be black market upgrades, > of course, but they will treated as criminals. > > China - The Borg, obviously. A machine-like hive mind which sweeps all > before it. From natashavita at earthlink.net Tue Sep 28 14:00:44 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:00:44 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler Message-ID: <1520-22004922814044764@M2W067.mail2web.com> Spike wrote: A passage that looked like it was from Amara, but sounded more like Natasha: "I'm not a fan of Ed Regis, and I have been disturbed by his articles and books. His book on transhumans was quite weak. It was a book about cryonics and nanotechnology and culture, not transhumans, per se. I wish he had not used the word "transhuman" so loosely, in deference to FM-2030 who was teaching about transhumanity at the time Ed wrote this book and who Ed didn't mention, but freely borrowed the ideas..." >Ed Regis was at the first west coast nanocon in about 1990 I think >it was. The Mambo Chicken had just hit the presses. That one was >kinda fun, not terribly insightful. James Gleick tried a futurist tone >with Faster, another book that way missed the mark, which surprised me, >since his other work was very good. *Yes, you are correct. I think Mambo was more about nanotechnology and Eric Drexler and Keith Hanson and cryonics and it was light and fun. Before that Ed's book "Are You A Transhuman?" was published and was so entirely different than Ed's that it was almost funny. Ed's written like Mondo 2000, and FM's being his practical guide to being transhuman. Interestingly enough RU Sirius and Wes Thomas - the Mondo 2000 folks - loved FM. The world is full of all sorts of ironies! :-) >Methinks the best mainstream press about transhumanism is still >the stellar work The Spike, by our own Dr. Broderick. It very well could be! Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From scerir at libero.it Tue Sep 28 14:14:49 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:14:49 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] antiaging paper References: <012a01c4a519$0cdfde60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <001101c4a565$851607f0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> JCB, Sept. 27 http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/166/7/1055 and also http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/163/1/35 It seems that the above Italian talents (in USA), and especially Valter Longo, found something interesting. At least there are several newspapers saying that today, here. Yeats lifetime extended 5 times! Rats lifetime extended by about 50%. Aging mechanism seen as part of (past but also *present*) evolution. And so on. But I do not understand this stuff at all, so I'm just pointing it out to the estropicos. s. From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Tue Sep 28 14:19:31 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:19:31 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040928132522.61364.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040928132522.61364.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: >Property crime ranges from 3-5 times higher than the US in european >nations. Theft of identification is a common occurence, which is the >whole reason why a company like American Express came into being. 3-5 times higher seems a really high number. It's easy to skew number 5 times up or down in different statistics. In a 5-minutes Google search (pulling up what seemed official pages, but no guarantee of scientific precision) I found the following: Auto theft: US 1 every 186 cars per year Italy 1 every 156 cars per year Burglary: US 1200 cases / 100.000 people Italy 406 cases / 100.000 people so auto theft seems slightly higher in Italy, while burglary seems so much higher in the US that I doubt the numbers. references: US burglary: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/burg.htm US person per household: http://www.google.it/search?q=cache:8XhNFyRTFKQJ:www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-8.pdf+average+household+size+US&hl=it US car theft: http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/test4/ Italy burglary: http://www.google.it/search?q=cache:q3JIf_50llEJ:images.vb.camcom.it/f/Varie/So/Sociale.pdf+crimini+statistiche&hl=it Italy car theft: http://www.targhe.org/articolo_cesc2002.html Alfio From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 14:23:23 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:23:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <00e501c4a510$5f5a7500$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040928142323.63620.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > There will be no draft regardless of who wins in November. > The powers saw what happened last time we had one. The > army has been investing in force multipliers ever since. > Draftees would likely end up being more liability > than asset. Spike is exactly right. We do as much damage to the enemy from the air with 1/20th the number of planes and many times less collateral damage than we had in Vietnam. Soldiers get much better trained in shooting man-shaped targets, in aggressive infantry tactics, etc. and finally, you don't have a Soviet Union supplying endless arms to client states for free. Russia at least makes them pay cash on the barrel head, and is today less inclined to arm people who will wind up contributing to insurgency and terrorism within Russia. China, North Korea, and Vietnam are all questionable, though they are all in need of cash more than ideology, and we always have the option of sinking their ships. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From jpnitya at verizon.net Tue Sep 28 14:22:52 2004 From: jpnitya at verizon.net (Joao Magalhaes) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:22:52 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] antiaging paper In-Reply-To: <001101c4a565$851607f0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> References: <012a01c4a519$0cdfde60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <001101c4a565$851607f0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040928101413.01c29ef0@incoming.verizon.net> Hi, As I've said many times, findings in yeast do not necessarily imply similar findings in mammals. There are many ways to extend lifespan in yeast and yet these have not been implicated in mammalian aging--except perhaps caloric restriction but even so the mechanisms of CR in yeast and rodents appear to be different. Now, you do mention that the lifetime of rats was extended by 50% but that is not in the papers you cite. Where did you read the results from rats? There have been studies with SOD2 in mice and rats but, as far as I know, these have NOT extended normal lifespan. You can check out: http://genomics.senescence.info/genes/entry.php?hugo=sod2 All the best, Joao At 10:14 AM 28/9/2004, you wrote: >JCB, Sept. 27 >http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/166/7/1055 >and also >http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/163/1/35 > >It seems that the above Italian talents (in USA), >and especially Valter Longo, found something interesting. >At least there are several newspapers saying >that today, here. Yeats lifetime extended 5 times! >Rats lifetime extended by about 50%. Aging mechanism >seen as part of (past but also *present*) evolution. >And so on. But I do not understand this stuff at all, >so I'm just pointing it out to the estropicos. >s. > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 14:25:00 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:25:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <012a01c4a519$0cdfde60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040928142500.81241.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Spike wrote: > > Took him to a meeting of Parents Without Partners? Nah, Single Bitches Anonymous... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pharos at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 14:54:24 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:54:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] antiaging paper In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040928101413.01c29ef0@incoming.verizon.net> References: <012a01c4a519$0cdfde60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <001101c4a565$851607f0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.2.20040928101413.01c29ef0@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:22:52 -0400, Joao Magalhaes wrote: > As I've said many times, findings in yeast do not necessarily imply similar > findings in mammals. There are many ways to extend lifespan in yeast and > yet these have not been implicated in mammalian aging--except perhaps > caloric restriction but even so the mechanisms of CR in yeast and rodents > appear to be different. Now, you do mention that the lifetime of rats was > extended by 50% but that is not in the papers you cite. Where did you read > the results from rats? There have been studies with SOD2 in mice and rats > but, as far as I know, these have NOT extended normal lifespan. You can > check out: > > http://genomics.senescence.info/genes/entry.php?hugo=sod2 > There is a 'pop' writeup on Betterhumans at: This confirms what Joao says that it is pure speculation that the yeast results might possibly apply to mammals. Quote: Longo admits that programmed human aging is just a possibility. "We don't know whether it's true yet or not," he says. "But if aging is programmed in yeast, and the pathway is very similar, then isn't it possible that humans also die earlier than they have to?" Longo admits there are many unanswered questions in his theory and plans to look closer at aging in humans and mammals. There are various reports that CR diets and including other nutrients and hormones in rats diets can extend lifespan by up to 50%, but in this 'snake-oil' area you have to be very careful what you read. BillK From amara at amara.com Tue Sep 28 15:57:52 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:57:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: Dog and his Boy Message-ID: Mike Lorrey: >> Took him to a meeting of Parents Without Partners? >Nah, Single Bitches Anonymous... Welllllllll the article only said that the dog was an old, family guard dog, but no gender was given. I assumed it was Grandpa Dog. Amara http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3582191&thesection=news&thesubsection=world -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "In my opinion, television validates existence." --Calvin From scerir at libero.it Tue Sep 28 15:01:00 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:01:00 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] antiaging paper References: <012a01c4a519$0cdfde60$6501a8c0@SHELLY><001101c4a565$851607f0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.2.20040928101413.01c29ef0@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <000601c4a56b$f7dfcea0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> From: "Joao Magalhaes" > Now, you do mention that the lifetime of rats was > extended by 50% but that is not in the papers you cite. > Where did you read the results from rats? There have > been studies with SOD2 in mice and rats but, as far as > I know, these have NOT extended normal lifespan. On the "Il Sole - 24 Ore", Italian daily paper, perhaps the best one, on the science page, there is an article about that (yeats, mammals, aging) and the writer reports (in brackets) something Valter Longo told him (at telephone I suppose). Longo says that in *his* laboratory yeats live 5 times the usual lifespan, and in *other* laboratories rats live about 50% more than the usual lifetime. In both cases - says Longo - there is a similar manipulation of a similar (between yeats, rats, and, in general, other mammals and humans too) genetic sequence. [I do not understand this stuff, but these words, by Valter Longo, are in brackets] Saluti, s. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 15:04:37 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:04:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: <470a3c5204092806574369ae1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040928150437.76338.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Nice and I fear realistic thoughts Bill. Given only these three > choices, I would move off-planet and look for a planet where John > Wayne, Walmart and the government cooperate to develop good options > for everyone. > > > > Europe - A neat, tidy place where everyone has a schedule of > upgrades > > provided by the government. To keep things fair everyone gets the > > super-strength upgrade. Then when that is completed, everyone moves > on to the next upgrade, and so on. There will be black market > upgrades, of course, but they will treated as criminals. I can see it now, where your government provided upgrades shut down automatically if you spit on the sidewalk, or pay a waiter a tip without giving the state its gift punishment tax. If, Marx forfend, you express the desire that your kids get upgrades before the other kids, you are labeled an atavistic and anti-social, and are thus committed to a mental hospital for adjustment. Anyone travelling to the US will need a mind-scan before they are let back on the continent. > > > > China - The Borg, obviously. A machine-like hive mind which sweeps > all before it. Provided they don't all die choking on their own coal smoke, could be. The Extropy vs Borg war will begin. Of course, it will be fought in Europe, as Chinese Borg hackers are able to easily phreak the monocultural EU-OS body mods for fast assimilation. Europeans, hamstrung by anti-agression circuits, plead to the US for help since they can't fight for themselves, and thus, once again, european stupidity will be the cause of yet a third world war. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 15:07:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040928150716.58572.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> So little crime is actually reported to police in europe (and so few police actually keep track of it) that it is meaningless to go by police reports. You need to survey the population, instead. --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Property crime ranges from 3-5 times higher than the US in european > >nations. Theft of identification is a common occurence, which is the > >whole reason why a company like American Express came into being. > > 3-5 times higher seems a really high number. It's easy to skew number > 5 > times up or down in different statistics. In a 5-minutes Google > search > (pulling up what seemed official pages, but no guarantee of > scientific > precision) I found the following: > > Auto theft: > US 1 every 186 cars per year > Italy 1 every 156 cars per year > > Burglary: > US 1200 cases / 100.000 people > Italy 406 cases / 100.000 people > > so auto theft seems slightly higher in Italy, while burglary seems so > much higher in the US that I doubt the numbers. > > > references: > US burglary: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/burg.htm > US person per household: > http://www.google.it/search?q=cache:8XhNFyRTFKQJ:www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-8.pdf+average+household+size+US&hl=it > US car theft: http://www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/test4/ > Italy burglary: > http://www.google.it/search?q=cache:q3JIf_50llEJ:images.vb.camcom.it/f/Varie/So/Sociale.pdf+crimini+statistiche&hl=it > Italy car theft: http://www.targhe.org/articolo_cesc2002.html > > Alfio > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From namacdon at ole.augie.edu Tue Sep 28 15:11:51 2004 From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:11:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe Message-ID: <1096384311.7aa35be0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> "Of course, it will be fought in Europe, as Chinese Borg hackers are able to easily phreak the monocultural EU-OS body mods for fast assimilation. Europeans, hamstrung by anti-agression circuits, plead to the US for help since they can't fight for themselves, and thus, once again, european stupidity will be the cause of yet a third world war." Wouldn't Chinese belligerence be the real cause? (scratches his head) -Nicq From namacdon at ole.augie.edu Tue Sep 28 15:21:33 2004 From: namacdon at ole.augie.edu (Nicholas Anthony MacDonald) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:21:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth Message-ID: <1096384893.7aa35be0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/09/red_states_feed.html Funny, I thought South Dakota would have been higher than 9th, Sen. Daschle is famous for bringing home more tax dollars than this state pays out... in fact, that might be the only thing that gets him re-elected this fall. But yes, in general, the "blue states" are the ones with the most advanced production and information economies (and high-wage jobs), while the "red states" are still primarily driven by agriculture and natural resources (and lower-wage jobs). So, naturally, the government ends up sending more wealth in the direction of the red states, to keep our resource economy from drying up. I see it all the time here in SD- farm subsidies, ethanol subsidies, water projects, infrastructure, etc- all to keep our low-yield, marginal agricultural economy running. Though I'd be egged for saying it in front of about anyone in this state, I say let the dirt farmers fold up- the future of this state is bison, indians, and windmills- and a few tech companies and credit processing operations in Sioux Falls. -Nicq From jonkc at att.net Tue Sep 28 15:36:48 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:36:48 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Economist on cognitive enhancement References: <470a3c520409272344189b19c7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <025e01c4a571$037986c0$afff4d0c@hal2001> >From the Economist's Technology Quarterly: Supercharging the brain > people who become distressed over such mild glitches as forgetting > their keys or glasses. Should they be offered "cognitive enhancers" > too? This question is left unanswered by the paper The question is left unanswered because the answer is so blindingly obvious it would be an insult to reader's intelligence to spell it out. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 15:42:38 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:42:38 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dog and his boy In-Reply-To: <015401c4a561$d7ccf200$6501a8c0@SHELLY> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927235557.0295bb38@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <015401c4a561$d7ccf200$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040928083549.02912988@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> The very same one an only. No plans to go away - but will (rarely) mention software toys when I have written same (and maybe an essay or two) to download and Extropianate with.... >Hara Ra! The same Hara Ra that would regale us with >free entertainment at the local cryo-schmoozes? {8^D >Cool, welcome back bud! We missed you. Don't go >away this time. spike > > > age, so the boy may never learn to speak. :( > >I learned Fortran at age 16. {8-] But that's your second language. And Fortran suffers from: Regular Syntax, Lack of Ambiguity, Small Vocabulary, Reliable (if obscure) Error Messages. So GO FORMAT. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Sep 28 16:03:48 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:03:48 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Economist on cognitive enhancement In-Reply-To: <025e01c4a571$037986c0$afff4d0c@hal2001> References: <470a3c520409272344189b19c7@mail.gmail.com> <025e01c4a571$037986c0$afff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <470a3c52040928090332b4b8d2@mail.gmail.com> Of course it is John, from our point of view. But since this is mainstream press and they usually make a big fuss about these things, I have been pleasantly surprised that they do not further elaborate on the question. Many publications do insult the intelligence of readers, and at this point they would start saying that cognitive enhancement for normally aging people is unethical and deprives them of human dignity and BS of this kind. Fortunately the Economist is more serious than that. G. On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 11:36:48 -0400, John K Clark wrote: > From the Economist's Technology Quarterly: Supercharging the brain > > > people who become distressed over such mild glitches as forgetting > > their keys or glasses. Should they be offered "cognitive enhancers" > > too? This question is left unanswered by the paper > > The question is left unanswered because the answer is so blindingly obvious > it would be an insult to reader's intelligence to spell it out. > > John K Clark jonkc at att.net > > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 16:05:49 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Converging Technologies for a Diverse Europe In-Reply-To: <1096384311.7aa35be0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Message-ID: <20040928160549.86230.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Nicholas Anthony MacDonald wrote: > "Of course, it will be fought in > Europe, as Chinese Borg hackers are able to easily phreak the > monocultural EU-OS body mods for fast assimilation. Europeans, > hamstrung by anti-agression circuits, plead to the US for help since > they can't fight for themselves, and thus, once again, european > stupidity will be the cause of yet a third world war." > > Wouldn't Chinese belligerence be the real cause? Belligerence is a willful action. Borg assimilate because they just do. Agression is like water, it seeks the easiest path. So long as europe follows wrong-headed social and defense policies, it will attract and get bitch-slapped by anybody who thinks they can get away with it, be they islamists or chinese, etc. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Sep 28 16:06:57 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 09:06:57 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Economist on cognitive enhancement In-Reply-To: <025e01c4a571$037986c0$afff4d0c@hal2001> References: <470a3c520409272344189b19c7@mail.gmail.com> <025e01c4a571$037986c0$afff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040928090544.0291a928@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> >I always knew Extropians are visionaries. > > people who become distressed over such mild glitches as forgetting > > their keys or glasses. Should they be offered "cognitive enhancers" > > too? This question is left unanswered by the paper > >The question is left unanswered because the answer is so blindingly obvious >it would be an insult to reader's intelligence to spell it out. > > John K Clark jonkc at att.net ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From jpnitya at verizon.net Tue Sep 28 16:27:18 2004 From: jpnitya at verizon.net (Joao Magalhaes) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:27:18 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] antiaging paper In-Reply-To: References: <012a01c4a519$0cdfde60$6501a8c0@SHELLY> <001101c4a565$851607f0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.2.20040928101413.01c29ef0@incoming.verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040928122038.01e8a010@incoming.verizon.net> Hi, First of all, I must say that I appreciate some of Longo's reasoning. In fact, he commented on my own research quite positively: http://sageke.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/2004/30/nf69 (warning: subscription required). Yet I don't think he is talking about studies in mammals on SOD2 but merely stating the fact that it is possible to extend lifespan in rats. He is probably referring to the studies on caloric restriction by other groups which indeed extended longevity in rats by up to 50%. Yet his research on SOD2 and yeast does not have a parallel in mammals. All the best, Joao --- Joao Pedro de Magalhaes, PhD Harvard Medical School, Dept. of Genetics Avenue Louis Pasteur, 77, Room 238 Boston, MA 02115 Telephone: 1-617-432-6550 http://www.senescence.info From Ody777 at comcast.net Tue Sep 28 17:04:36 2004 From: Ody777 at comcast.net (Ody777 at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 17:04:36 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] ODYSSEY 5 Message-ID: <092820041704.23959.415999A400013A2A00005D972200734840C9C9C9970BB1@comcast.net> There?s a remarkable science fiction series being rebroadcast on Showtime right now. It?s called ODYSSEY 5, and it?s about cutting-edge technologies that interest many transhumanists: in particular, genetic engineering, nanotech, and Artificial Intelligence. The series starts with the end of the world! The crew of an orbiting Space Shuttle watch in horror as, somehow, the planet Earth implodes and vanishes. Then they are transported back in time to several years before the disaster. They have to figure out why it is going to happen-- and stop it, if they can. In each episode the five main characters encounter bizarre technological creations such as synthetic life-forms, nanobots, and rogue Artificial Intelligences wandering loose on the Internet. Some of the AIs are deranged; one, for example, becomes a stalker, sending its victim threatening Instant Messages, interfering with his phone service, etc. To me, such speculative concepts are a powerful, fun way of thinking about what the near future may hold. The series originally consisted of 20 episodes, but for some reason Showtime aired only the first 14 before cancelling it in 2002. Those episodes were rebroadcast this month; the remaining 6 will be shown for the first time in October. For details, see the Showtime schedule: http://www.sho.com/site/homepage/index.do . The opening episodes are now available ?On Demand? (if your cable provider offers that service). For more information on ODYSSEY 5, go to http://www.sho.com/site/o5/home.do . Rob Masters From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 17:06:51 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] antiaging paper In-Reply-To: <001101c4a565$851607f0$7db01b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20040928170651.99989.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> Interesting article about an interesting gene. I have seen the life prolonging effects of super oxide dismutase work in transgenic drosophilia before. The flies that have the extra SOD gene live aproximately 50%-100% longer and remain far more active through out their lifetime than their non-enhanced counterparts. It's purpose is to disarm free O2- free radicals by converting them to hydrogen peroxide and molecular oxygen. The authors seem to favor placing SOD function into the programmed senescence model of aging as opposed to the breakdown/ failure model. Other evidence for this model are the series of genes that are induced to activate when we age. These genes constitute a gain of function rather than a loss of function even though their downstream effects are debilitating. My opinion is that these two models are not mutually exclusive. That is to say, I think there is a gradual breakdown in cellular function AND there are genes whose function, at least late in life, is to mediate this breakdown. --- scerir wrote: > JCB, Sept. 27 > http://www.jcb.org/cgi/content/abstract/166/7/1055 > and also > http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content/abstract/163/1/35 > > It seems that the above Italian talents (in USA), > and especially Valter Longo, found something > interesting. > At least there are several newspapers saying > that today, here. Yeats lifetime extended 5 times! > Rats lifetime extended by about 50%. Aging mechanism > seen as part of (past but also *present*) evolution. > And so on. But I do not understand this stuff at > all, > so I'm just pointing it out to the estropicos. > s. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 17:07:56 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927231509.029be008@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928170756.95488.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hara Ra wrote: > Not quite.... The cold water is denser than the warm > and must be lifted > before dilution. The volumes needed are substantial. > (If the surface > temperature is 25deg C {78.5 degF) and the > temperature at 100 meters is 5 > deg C (41 degF) the needed lift is about a meter, > assuming a linear > temperature gradient. If you do a 10x dilution, the > energy cost is about 27 > Kwh per square kilometer. 1 million km^2 is probably > needed. This is a > negligible heat load but a significant ($2.7 million > at $100 /Mwh) power > cost for the lifting alone. I doubt that air bubbles > would be even 10% > efficient, and the numbers I selected are > deliberately low - surface > temperatures of 90 degF are common.) So...would another way to accurately state the problem be, this might become practical if energy became a lot cheaper than it currently is? (Although, merely $2.7 million is less than some insurance companies pay in claims for a hurricane's damage, so this might be worth it to them to stop or seriously reduce a hurricane if the non-energy costs are not significantly more than that.) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 17:44:13 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 10:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <20040928170756.95488.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928174413.59517.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Hurricane damages are typically counted in the billions, just from when they hit the US shore. $2.7 million sounds more typical for the damages to a carribean island. Killing the hurricane entirely really isn't needed. What is needed is a way to downgrade them from cat 4 or cat 5 status to a 1 or 2. If you have some tankers with jet engines on board, burning fuel and pumping air to depth along the track of the storm. Reducing surface temperatures by only 5-10 degrees goes a long way to detuning the force of a hurricane. --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Hara Ra wrote: > > Not quite.... The cold water is denser than the warm > > and must be lifted > > before dilution. The volumes needed are substantial. > > (If the surface > > temperature is 25deg C {78.5 degF) and the > > temperature at 100 meters is 5 > > deg C (41 degF) the needed lift is about a meter, > > assuming a linear > > temperature gradient. If you do a 10x dilution, the > > energy cost is about 27 > > Kwh per square kilometer. 1 million km^2 is probably > > needed. This is a > > negligible heat load but a significant ($2.7 million > > at $100 /Mwh) power > > cost for the lifting alone. I doubt that air bubbles > > would be even 10% > > efficient, and the numbers I selected are > > deliberately low - surface > > temperatures of 90 degF are common.) > > So...would another way to accurately state the problem > be, this might become practical if energy became a > lot cheaper than it currently is? > > (Although, merely $2.7 million is less than some > insurance companies pay in claims for a hurricane's > damage, so this might be worth it to them to stop or > seriously reduce a hurricane if the non-energy costs > are not significantly more than that.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 28 18:02:45 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 19:02:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Long Now: Bets and Predictions Over Time In-Reply-To: <20040927173816.50179.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928180245.64284.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> If the New Deal & Great Society are yet so important, then why pick on gays who want to get married? But all that pales into insignificance when you take a sober look at what is developing in the Middle East. For the first time in my life it appears to me another general war is a fair if not good possibility. In the worst-case you will forget all about FDR, LBJ, gay marriage, getting shot in Kuwait, and everything else. Who would ever have thought the 21st century would start out this way? > As petty as Johnson, who pushed through his Great > Society? or Roosevelt > who pushed through radical restructuring of the US > economy during WWII > that fulfilled many socialist goals, including the > Current Payments Tax > Act, which mandated all employers be the tax > collector for their > employees and allowed the federal government to > collect interest on > withheld income prior to tax day, whereas in > previous years taxpayers > paid at the END of the tax year. The change in the > rules confused so > many people that the number who reported taxes, > whether they actually > had to or not, rose in one year from 6 million to 22 > million. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > _______________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! > http://vote.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From gingell at gnat.com Tue Sep 28 19:06:19 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:06:19 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <1096384893.7aa35be0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> References: <1096384893.7aa35be0namacdon@ole.augie.edu> Message-ID: <16729.46635.380363.792552@nile.gnat.com> Nicholas Anthony MacDonald writes: > But yes, in general, the "blue states" are the ones with the most > advanced production and information economies (and high-wage jobs), > while the "red states" are still primarily driven by agriculture > and natural resources (and lower-wage jobs). So, naturally, the > government ends up sending more wealth in the direction of the red > states, to keep our resource economy from drying up. What doesn't make any sense though, and what makes US political rhetoric so completely surreal, is the electorate's bizarre insistence on arguing against it's own interest. Why do the blue states fight so hard to maintain federal spending they largely don't benefit from, and why are the red states so interested in cutting taxes they largely don't pay? > I see it all the time here in SD- farm subsidies, ethanol > subsidies, water projects, infrastructure, etc- all to keep our > low-yield, marginal agricultural economy running. Though I'd be > egged for saying it in front of about anyone in this state, I say > let the dirt farmers fold up- the future of this state is bison, > indians, and windmills- and a few tech companies and credit > processing operations in Sioux Falls. Maybe you can understand how us East Coast rate-payers are a little irked by the lack of gratitude we're shown by the deeply subsidized, money loosing, interior colonies? Is there any popular conception among you God fearing, real American folk of what SD would look like if you could no longer get $3 for a $1 worth of alfalfa? (Or whatever the hell it is you people grow out there.) :) Matt From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 19:15:22 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <20040928174413.59517.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928191522.21428.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Hurricane damages are typically counted in the > billions, just from when > they hit the US shore. $2.7 million sounds more > typical for the damages > to a carribean island. > > Killing the hurricane entirely really isn't needed. > What is needed is a > way to downgrade them from cat 4 or cat 5 status to > a 1 or 2. If you > have some tankers with jet engines on board, burning > fuel and pumping > air to depth along the track of the storm. Reducing > surface > temperatures by only 5-10 degrees goes a long way to > detuning the force > of a hurricane. Hmm. I wonder if one could do a sub-million-dollar proving project, that would slightly but measurably reduce the force of a cat 1 or 2? Preferably one not slated to come ashore, just in case the worst happens. Once one has proven it this way, then one could make backed-up-by-evidence projections of how much it would cost to diminsh a cat 4 or 5, and try to get funding for that upscaled project. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 19:29:25 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 12:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <16729.46635.380363.792552@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: <20040928192925.28025.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matthew Gingell wrote: > Nicholas Anthony MacDonald writes: > > > But yes, in general, the "blue states" are the ones with the most > > advanced production and information economies (and high-wage > jobs), > > while the "red states" are still primarily driven by agriculture > > and natural resources (and lower-wage jobs). So, naturally, the > > government ends up sending more wealth in the direction of the red > > states, to keep our resource economy from drying up. > > What doesn't make any sense though, and what makes US political > rhetoric so completely surreal, is the electorate's bizarre > insistence on arguing against it's own interest. Why do the blue > states fight so hard to maintain federal spending they largely don't > benefit from, and why are the red states so interested in cutting > taxes they largely don't pay? Ah, but you forget the principle of supply side economics (which the red states believe in) vs demand side economics (which the blue states believe in). Supply siders say that if you reduce the overall tax rates on the tax payers, that the economic synergies will actually generate more tax revinue as economic growth increases, leading to more money being available for corn subsidies and defense contracts. This is smart, not squeezing the hen so much that she won't lay as many eggs as possible. Demand siders believe that if they appease the economic demands of the drag knuckled gap toothed hicks in the hinterland, these benighted inbred barbarians won't raid the civilized coastal cities and disturb the sophisticated culture of modern liberals with rebel yells and 'yee-haws'. Like Rome often thought, they believe it is far easier to pay off the Huns than to have to go about taking their weapons away and civilizing them. Oh, yeah, Rome fell... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From scerir at libero.it Tue Sep 28 19:39:11 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:39:11 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] antiaging paper References: <20040928170651.99989.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000301c4a592$d46e8e80$14bd1b97@administxl09yj> From: "The Avantguardian" > Interesting article about an interesting gene. I > have seen the life prolonging effects of super oxide > dismutase work in transgenic drosophilia before. The > flies that have the extra SOD gene live aproximately > 50%-100% longer and remain far more active through out > their lifetime than their non-enhanced counterparts. If I remember well this one is another good reference: Longo, V.D., Caleb E. Finch: 'Evolutionary Medicine: from Starvation and Dwarf Model Systems to Healthy Centenarians?' Science, 299, 2003, 1342-1346. From jonkc at att.net Tue Sep 28 19:37:41 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:37:41 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering References: <20040928191522.21428.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00c801c4a592$aef2ea20$11ff4d0c@hal2001> I wonder what would happen if you released several thousand tons of biodegradable vegetable oil into the ocean in the path of the hurricane. All that oil should hinder evaporation (if the heavy wave action doesn't disrupt the slick too much) and evaporation is the life blood of hurricanes. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From megaquark at hotmail.com Tue Sep 28 19:58:34 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:58:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering References: <20040928170756.95488.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Somehow, I think it is easier to simply increase insurance rates to make that money back. In the end, it is the policy holders that live in FL that bear the expense. If someone doesn;t like that idea, all they have to do is move to an area where risk is lower and rates are cheaper. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Tymes" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering > --- Hara Ra wrote: > > Not quite.... The cold water is denser than the warm > > and must be lifted > > before dilution. The volumes needed are substantial. > > (If the surface > > temperature is 25deg C {78.5 degF) and the > > temperature at 100 meters is 5 > > deg C (41 degF) the needed lift is about a meter, > > assuming a linear > > temperature gradient. If you do a 10x dilution, the > > energy cost is about 27 > > Kwh per square kilometer. 1 million km^2 is probably > > needed. This is a > > negligible heat load but a significant ($2.7 million > > at $100 /Mwh) power > > cost for the lifting alone. I doubt that air bubbles > > would be even 10% > > efficient, and the numbers I selected are > > deliberately low - surface > > temperatures of 90 degF are common.) > > So...would another way to accurately state the problem > be, this might become practical if energy became a > lot cheaper than it currently is? > > (Although, merely $2.7 million is less than some > insurance companies pay in claims for a hurricane's > damage, so this might be worth it to them to stop or > seriously reduce a hurricane if the non-energy costs > are not significantly more than that.) > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 28 20:03:14 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:03:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040928192925.28025.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928200314.37075.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Very good, Mike, you made your point. As a semi-hick myself I don't know precisely what you mean, but you did make a point. Am interested in knowing more about the economics of farming today. It is a vast subject, but as one knowledgeable concerning red states can you give us a few pointers on agricultural subsidies and the utility of farming regulations, if you can do so? Demand siders believe that if they appease the economic demands of the drag knuckled gap toothed hicks in the hinterland, these benighted inbred barbarians won't raid the civilized coastal cities and disturb the sophisticated culture of modern liberals with rebel yells and 'yee-haws'. Like Rome often thought, they believe it is far easier to pay off the Huns than to have to go about taking their weapons away and civilizing them. Oh, yeah, Rome fell... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Sep 28 20:40:06 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:40:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] recent Brian Stableford fiction collection Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040928153814.01a66ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Anyone here read this book and care to comment on it? ============ Designer Genes: Tales From The Biotech Revolution Author: Brian Stableford Published by Five Star A tireless believer in the advancement of biotechnology and the wonders it can bring to humanity, Brian Stableford has used his fiction, both short and long, to explore all sides of the advantages and hazards of tinkering with ourselves, our environment, and our planet. Five Star Publishing is pleased to collect eleven of his best stories in Designer Genes: Tales from the Biotech Revolution, postulating what life might be like when anything and everything is subject to the whims and desires of man; who will always want something better, bigger, larger. Current, cutting-edge advances in technology and medicine are taken to their rigorous, logically extrapolated extreme, and seen from the views of people and organizations both for and against this kind of genetic and biological manipulation. Published/Released: March 2004 http://www.galegroup.com/servlet/ItemDetailServlet?region=9&imprint=305&titleCode=TP916&type=3&id=191155 From hal at finney.org Tue Sep 28 20:11:57 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering Message-ID: <20040928201157.5863D57E2B@finney.org> I am not sure it has been mentioned in this thread, but the October issue of Scientific American actually has an article on just this topic, controlling hurricanes. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=000593AE-704B-1151-B57F83414B7F0000 The author reports on simulations suggesting that changing the air temperature a degree or two in particular regions around the hurricane can change its course or reduce its intensity. However the article was somewhat vague about what technology might accomplish this task. There were references to unsuccessful experiments with cloud seeding in the 1960s, and suggestions that commercial jet flights might someday be planned to control where the shadows fell from their contrails. More advanced technologies could include microwave beams from solar power satellites or special biodegradable oil coatings to reduce evaporation from selected regions of the ocean. Hal From benboc at lineone.net Tue Sep 28 21:05:13 2004 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:05:13 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: antiaging paper In-Reply-To: <200409281800.i8SI0r006326@tick.javien.com> References: <200409281800.i8SI0r006326@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <4159D209.1010301@lineone.net> From: "scerir" > Yeats lifetime extended 5 times! Which one, Jack or William? If it's Jack, were talking about 430, whereas William scores a less-impressive 370 years. Not that it would do either of them any good, both being stone cold dead. ... I'll get me coat. ben From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 21:14:51 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040928211451.16606.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> or build something that isn't a trailer... --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Somehow, I think it is easier to simply increase insurance rates to > make > that money back. In the end, it is the policy holders that live in FL > that > bear the expense. If someone doesn;t like that idea, all they have to > do is > move to an area where risk is lower and rates are cheaper. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Sep 28 21:37:38 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <00c801c4a592$aef2ea20$11ff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20040928213738.52809.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > I wonder what would happen if you released several > thousand tons of > biodegradable vegetable oil into the ocean in the > path of the hurricane. All > that oil should hinder evaporation (if the heavy > wave action doesn't disrupt > the slick too much) and evaporation is the life > blood of hurricanes. I recall hearing a study about that. Conclusion: heavy wave action would disrupt the slick too much. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Sep 28 21:54:15 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040928200314.37075.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040928215415.99933.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > > Very good, Mike, you made your point. As a semi-hick myself I don't > know precisely what you mean, but you did make a point. Am interested > in knowing more about the economics of farming today. It is a vast > subject, but as one knowledgeable concerning red states can you give > us a few pointers on agricultural subsidies and the utility of > farming regulations, if you can do so? Okay, here goes: the US has such vast agricultural capacity that were it all let loose, food would be grown at such little profit that nobody would make any money at it, and consequently the government would earn no tax revinues from the activity. Since the 30's, in the interests of keeping the 'American family farm', a cultural icon, intact, the government established a system of land banking whereby farmers got paid to put their land in the land bank and not farm it. The money they were paid was supposedly paid by taxes paid on agricultural commerce that did actually take place at higher prices thanks to reduced supply of produce. This artificial scarcity helps create an artificial tax base that keeps the government supplied with revinues by which it can pay out subsidies. Confused yet? It is a rather cynical Georgist plot, is all. Henry George, a 19th century socialist economist and philosopher pioneered the idea of lifeboat rules as socio-economic policy, particularly in the area of land ownership, use, and taxation. A firm believer in zero sum economics and agrarian mysticism, George did accept the concept of Natural Rights, but tried to claim the absurd notion that to be naturally free, you had to have some place of your own to be free at, otherwise you were on someone else's property and therefore unfree as you were subject to their rules. The idea of earning and saving one's earnings to buy a place to be free apparently never occured to him as a natural consequence, but he did acknowledge that while people, if they are free, should be able to invest their earnings in private property, but should also pay rent to the un-landed population for fencing that land off from everyone else (especially those too unproductive and parasitical to save money). This 'economic scarcity rent' has come to be known as 'property taxes'. With agriculture, though, a totally free market experiences no scarcity, at least not within the bounds of the utility value of the collective population. This reduction to commodity and even fire-sale pricing makes for low value (i.e. peasant) economic activity and little government revinue to pay economic scarcity rent to those who are not dumb enough to get stuck working on a farm their entire lives. So, therefore, artificial scarcity and subsequently artificial prices, need to be established to enhance government revinue. Still with me? Once this artificial scarcity is established, via land banking, land trusts, current use property tax rates, and other mechanisms, then the lumpen proletariat in the cities who can no longer afford expensive rural land can complain and elect politicians who will perpetuate the system while extracting more money from the remaining middle class to pay danegeld to the city peasant. In a similar way, communities pass zoning, planning, and building ordinances in order to reduce the amount of acrage in a community which can be developed for specific uses. Again, this is artificially created scarcity that raises prices and thus inflates (er, 'enhances') tax revinues. So, tell me something: why is it that city dwellers are so enamored of supporting environmental groups that drive people off the land (and into the cities) while rural people just believe in self-responsibility, i.e. stewardship, in taking care of the land they own? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From brentn at freeshell.org Tue Sep 28 22:54:34 2004 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:54:34 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040928192925.28025.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (9/28/04 12:29) Mike Lorrey wrote: >Ah, but you forget the principle of supply side economics (which the >red states believe in) vs demand side economics (which the blue states >believe in). Supply siders say that if you reduce the overall tax rates >on the tax payers, that the economic synergies will actually generate >more tax revinue as economic growth increases Wow, too bad that hasn't worked out like they hoped they would in re the fricken huge deficits that W.'s asinine tax "cuts" have led us to. Maybe next time they'll figure out that shifting the burden of taxation to the median earners is not a growth policy. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From gingell at gnat.com Wed Sep 29 00:25:26 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:25:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040928215415.99933.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040928215415.99933.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Okay, here goes: the US has such vast agricultural capacity that were > it all let loose, food would be grown at such little profit that nobody > would make any money at it, and consequently the government would earn > no tax revinues from the activity. This is a silly premise, and fails to motivate the argument that proceeds from it. Look at the analogy to other goods: The US has such a vast industrial capacity that, were we to devote it all to manufacturing paperclips, nobody would make any money selling paperclips. We have such a vast service capacity that, were we to devote it all to producing haircuts, nobody would make any money selling haircuts. Does that mean we ought to be restricting the supply of those goods by government action, or that we ought to guarantee the return on capital that insists on allocating itself to produce them? Would we expect doing so to increase tax revenues? In every sector there's an equilibrium between supply and demand, and for every commodity there's a point at which it stops being worthwhile for the next marginal producer to enter the market. To "let loose" our entire agricultural capacity would mean devoting labor and capital resources to producing agricultural goods that nobody wants. The fact you can't make a decent living doing something is the markets way of telling you to do something else. I'm not arguing that agricultural subsidies are all always and everywhere bad policy, I think there's a legitimate role for government action to minimize the displacement and human suffering caused by the transition from low to high productivity land and labor use, but they have nothing to do with supply side economics or revenue maximization. Matt From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 00:27:46 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:57:46 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040928150716.58572.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040928150716.58572.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > So little crime is actually reported to police in europe (and so few > police actually keep track of it) that it is meaningless to go by > police reports. You need to survey the population, instead. > Do you have such a survey? -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Wed Sep 29 01:50:12 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:50:12 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040929015007.5EEA1DB69@vscan02.westnet.com.au> This is really a little anecdote which is off topic, I guess, but if anyone here can shed some light on why this happened, I'd be very interested in all views: Just before I woke this morning, I was in a very lucid, "linear" dream where I went to a huge zoo with my aunt and her daughter (she and I always shared a secret attraction to each other, but neither EVER took _that_ any further...not being part of the Bristish Roral Family and all that..). So, we get through the toll gates and not long after I'm suddenly tapped on the shoulder by...Bill Murray!. I've been laid up for the last month with an incredibly damaged lower back ('nother story) and it seems Bill's job at the zoo is to recognise people wth back problems and CARRY them around the zoo. Naturally, I don't mind at all, so off we go and Bill is wisecracking in his usual hilarious manner, even while he explains he is doing this work as part of therapy to recover from a breakdown after Lost In Translation. And man, he is SO funny, but of course, all this wisecracking is coming from MY brain (and I'm not recalling lines from his movies, as far as I know...although we do exchange quite a few off the cuff gags regarding Groundhog Day and this zoo role...) Somewhere along the way, Bill says "mind if I hum a tune" and I of course say "no problem." He starts humming the most beautiful, melancholic melody that I cant resist adding a "Nashville shaded third", and even stetching beyond, going in harmonic directions I never even normally think of.....but every decision works beautifully. Murray is stunned and naturally says "you must be a singer", which I'm not. I am a professional musician (double bass player) and audio engineer. I do sing harmony and the occasional lead, but I'm not very good at it and have a lot of trouble with pitch and note choices. I gravitate towards the 5th, swapping to the 3rd without any particular reason or at any particular time. And I often miss...unless extensively rehearsed. Even then, I mostly sing a bit flat. Yet in this dream, both Bill and I have perfect pitch. Other things subsequently occur involving Bill which are hilarious, but this is the part of the dream I'm most interested in. My question to the list is this: Is it possible that conscious limitations to our musical abilities are bypassed when we are asleep? Is this a problem related to the fact that my physical senses were only functioning metaphorically? (ie my ears werent "hearing", my voice wasn't "singing".....? And this is also weird - how was I able to create very funny gags for Bill and I, or were they not very funny at all and I'm just recalling it differently? Is there a more talented part of our brain which kicks into gear during dreams and is pushed into the background during consciousness? Anyway, it's off topic, but I hope most of you will be OK with me posting this... Thanks, Sean From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Wed Sep 29 02:03:45 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:03:45 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: an imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929020340.A2BA511BD6A@vscan02.westnet.com.au> This is really a little anecdote which is off topic, I guess, but if anyone here can shed some light on why this happened, I'd be very interested in all views: Just before I woke this morning, I was in a very lucid, "linear" dream where I went to a huge zoo with my aunt and her daughter (she and I always shared a secret attraction to each other, but neither EVER took _that_ any further...not being part of the Bristish Roral Family and all that..). So, we get through the toll gates and not long after I'm suddenly tapped on the shoulder by...Bill Murray!. I've been laid up for the last month with an incredibly damaged lower back ('nother story) and it seems Bill's job at the zoo is to recognise people wth back problems and CARRY them around the zoo. Naturally, I don't mind at all, so off we go and Bill is wisecracking in his usual hilarious manner, even while he explains he is doing this work as part of therapy to recover from a breakdown after Lost In Translation. And man, he is SO funny, but of course, all this wisecracking is coming from MY brain (and I'm not recalling lines from his movies, as far as I know...although we do exchange quite a few off the cuff gags regarding Groundhog Day and this zoo role...) Somewhere along the way, Bill says "mind if I hum a tune" and I of course say "no problem." He starts humming the most beautiful, melancholic melody that I cant resist adding a "Nashville shaded third", and even stetching beyond, going in harmonic directions I never even normally think of.....but every decision works beautifully. Murray is stunned and naturally says "you must be a singer", which I'm not. I am a professional musician (double bass player) and audio engineer. I do sing harmony and the occasional lead, but I'm not very good at it and have a lot of trouble with pitch and note choices. I gravitate towards the 5th, swapping to the 3rd without any particular reason or at any particular time. And I often miss...unless extensively rehearsed. Even then, I mostly sing a bit flat. Yet in this dream, both Bill and I have perfect pitch. Other things subsequently occur involving Bill which are hilarious, but this is the part of the dream I'm most interested in. My question to the list is this: Is it possible that conscious limitations to our musical abilities are bypassed when we are asleep? Is this a problem related to the fact that my physical senses were only functioning metaphorically? (ie my ears werent "hearing", my voice wasn't "singing".....? And this is also weird - how was I able to create very funny gags for Bill and I, or were they not very funny at all and I'm just recalling it differently? Is there a more talented part of our brain which kicks into gear during dreams and is pushed into the background during consciousness? Anyway, it's off topic, but I hope most of you will be OK with me posting this... Thanks, Sean From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 29 02:13:55 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:13:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <20040929015007.5EEA1DB69@vscan02.westnet.com.au> References: <710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> <20040929015007.5EEA1DB69@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040928211224.01bdeec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:50 AM 9/29/2004 +0800, Sean Diggins wrote: >I was in a very lucid, "linear" dream where >I went to a huge zoo with my aunt and her daughter (she and I always shared >a secret attraction to each other, but neither EVER took _that_ any >further... < snips lots of intriguing stuff about dreams and singing > Enough about the singing already, I want to hear about this cousin. Damien Broderick [sent on behalf of Spike Jones] From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Wed Sep 29 03:03:35 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:03:35 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040928211224.01bdeec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040929030330.67851538E8@vscan01.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick Enough about the singing already, I want to hear about this cousin. ------------------------------------------ I'd tell you DB, but then I'd have to kill you. And we arent far enough down the nano path yet for that to not represent a big problem for you. And I'm not sharing ANY more of this particular dream either!! :) SEan From harara at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 29 03:23:25 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 20:23:25 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <20040928170756.95488.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927231509.029be008@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20040928170756.95488.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040928195917.02918510@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I was musing about the problem today: 1) If the air bubbles are put into the water, I have totally ignored the fact that 100 meters of water is about 10 atm pressure, and when air is compressed this much it becomes hot (think diesel engines compression ratio). The energy to compress the air is not avoidable, and once the air enters the water there is no means to keep the air hot. I don't want to to the math, but compressing 1 M^3 of air to 100atm (10 liters) takes vastly more energy than lifting 1 M^3 of water by 1M. 2) However, if the device floated on the sea, so we don't have to go to the pressures of the abyssal depth, how about simply putting the pump at the bottom of a 100m tube. Now the efficiency is around 90%. 3) If we distribute pumps every 100 meters, it takes 100 pumps per Km^2, with 270 wh per pump. That's an average of 2.7 watts if it takes 100 hours to run the pump. This is about the power of your typical solar panel for keeping the charge on a car battery. Produced en masse (100 million units for 1 MKm^2) the per unit cost should be under $30.00 - a $3 billion cost. Just use a simple thermostat, and no battery, no signalling, and the upper part is an inflated tube and the tube in the water is 3 mil plastic. 4) This design would not be a navigational hazard, but I am sure some delicate species will have a hard time. (Maybe they will constipate sharks). Such devices are not expected to last more than a season, they will foul with mussels and the like. 5) The sea is a very large place, and hurricanes go lots of places, so there would have to be a delivery system capable of dropping these within a week, and some kind of recovery process at the end of the year. 6) The conservative approach is just to build stronger buildings. >--- Hara Ra wrote: > > Not quite.... The cold water is denser than the warm > > and must be lifted This is a > > negligible heat load but a significant ($2.7 million > > at $100 /Mwh) power cost for the lifting alone. >So...would another way to accurately state the problem >be, this might become practical if energy became a >lot cheaper than it currently is? > >(Although, merely $2.7 million is less than some >insurance companies pay in claims for a hurricane's >damage, so this might be worth it to them to stop or >seriously reduce a hurricane if the non-energy costs >are not significantly more than that.) >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Wed Sep 29 03:39:27 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:39:27 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040928211224.01bdeec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040929033923.AD6BA5427A@vscan01.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick Damien Broderick ------------------------------------- Just wanted to add, the two books I recommend to people before ANY others to read are The Spike and The Last Mortal Generation. Most don't seem to ever actually go buy 'em, but that's because most are not too interested in the future, I suppose. Kurzweil's books are also interesting, but you have a great knack for explaining this kinda stuff to laypeople DB and I enjoy your writing. Of course, I also follow this with a copy of Bill Joy's Wired article, which I suppose had him re-named as Kill Joy.....but then, there are two sides (or indeed, an infinite number of sides) to everything... Sean From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Wed Sep 29 03:58:39 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:58:39 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040928211224.01bdeec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040929035833.DA20CC087@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Hara Ra and an audio specilist from another list emailed me, and I thought their two replies were worth putting on the same page. While I appreciate Hara Ra's view (and understand it, having done plenty of "seeming" in my youth, I'm more inclined to explore further the Pictorialist vs Descriptionalists perspective espoused by John La Grou.... Normally I share Hara Ra's view. But these harmonies were perfect...and great choices of notes. Other things like this have happened to me in the past (for example, I've often dreamt I'm working on music with Tom Waits, to the point where I have had a repeated dream of composing extended sea shanties with him in the hull of an old wooden ship.... Anyway, I just wanted to share the dream and see if there are any differences in the way the brain processes/creates auditory and vocal metaphors when we are asleep, as opposed to when the sensory/motor items are actually functional in the conscious world. I've often thought there is a censor between our conscious brains and reality, otherwise we wouldnt be able to operate. For example, nothing solid/inert is really solid/inert...Our conscious mind is/was only given access to the areas we need to use to survive, and we have developed/evolved this a bit, but not much. There's that quote from Albert E that many people often quote: "If our brains were so simple that we could understand them, we'd be so simple, we couldn't..." Thanks to both for responding. Sean Though it may be possible that you have suppressed talents and the like, my suspicion is that you are experiencing what I call "seeming". I have friends who partake of the herb, and sometimes make music, which at the time sounds really great. A replay when sober reveals this just isn't so. However, when they get stoned again, the recording sounds great again. I suspect "seeming", in which a sensation or event is replaced by an impression of same, is one of the brain's way of symbolizing or presymbolizing things without using all the resources needed for a full instance of same. While in dream or stoned space, I wouldn't be surprised if the "This is a marker" signal tends to be lost and the default is to experience the item as complete and real. In my younger years I liked to eat a few magic cookies and listen to music with headphones and eyeshades. It was often very visonary. I gradually became aware that most of the richness was from "seemings", and that a very close look at my experience revealed this aspect. Kind of the inverse of "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, the it is a duck", ie, "Tag:'duck' - implies presence of walk and quack" If you want to repost this to the list, feel free. ------------------------------------------------------- you seem to be asking about the "nature of mental imagery" -- a heady subject tackled mostly by pure philosophers who are divided into two camps: Pictoralists and Descriptionalists. Most of the discussion assumes pictoral imagery, rather than aural, but the arguments are similar. Leading thinkers here include Daniel Dennett, Zenon Pylyshyn, and Stephen Kosslyn. Do a Google search -- it's an amazing topic which spans imagination, brain and cognitive sciences, etc. Your dream-related experiences will probably come under the general headings of "auditory imagery" and "haptic imagery." Warning, there are no "real" answers here, and the more you dive into all this the murkier it gets. From zero.powers at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 04:28:51 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:28:51 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: References: <41584583.000003.02508@PCS_N-FRANQUI> Message-ID: <7a321705040928212810019380@mail.gmail.com> OK folks, I got the below very breathless email about a purported looming draft bill. I didn't follow the links, and barely perused the message. But I remember there was debate on this list about whether dubya is out to implement a draft. Perhaps this answers that question? Zero ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:21:57 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? To: Zero Powers Mandatory draft for males and females (ages 18-26) starting June 15,2005, is something that everyone should know about. This literally affects everyone since we all have or know children that will have to go if this bill passes. There is pending legislation in the house and senate (companion bills:89 and HR 163) which will time the program's initiation so the draft can begin as early as spring, 2005, just after the 2004 presidential election. The administration is quietly trying to get these bills passed now, while the public's attention is on the elections, so our action on this is needed immediately. Details and links follow.This plan, among other things, eliminates higher education as a shelter and includes women in the draft. Also, crossing into Canada has already been made very difficult. Actions: Please send this on to all the parents and teachers you know,and all the aunts and uncles, grandparents, godparents. . .And let your children know - - it's their future, and they can be a powerful voice for change! This legislation is called HR 163 and can be found in detail at this website: http://thomas.loc.gov. Enter in "HR 163" and click search and will bring up the bill for you to read. It is less than two pages long. If this bill passes, it will include all men and ALL WOMEN from ages 18 - 26 in a draft for military action. In addition, college will no longer be an option for avoiding the draft and they will be signing an agreement with Canada which will no longer permit anyone attempting to dodge the draft to stay within its borders. This bill also includes the extension of military service for all those that are currently active.If you go to the select service web site and read their 2004 FYI Goals you will see that the reasoning for this is to increase the size of the military in case of terrorism. This is a critical piece of legislation; this will affect undergraduates, our children and our grandchildren. Please take the time to write your congressman and let them know how you feel about this legislation. www.house.gov. Please also write to your representatives and ask them why they aren't telling their constituents about these bills and write to newspapers and other media outlets to ask them why they're not covering this important story. $28 million has been added to the 2004 selective service system budget to prepare for a military draft that could start as early as June 15, 2005. Selective service must report to Bush on March 31, 2005 that the system, which has lain dormant for decades, is ready for activation. Please see www. sss. gov/perfplan_fy2004 to view the Selective Service System annual performance plan, fiscal year 2004. The pentagon has quietly begun a public campaign to fill all 10,350 draft board positions and 11,070 appeals board slots nationwide. Though this is an unpopular election year topic, military experts and influential members of congress are suggesting that if Rumsfeld's prediction of a "long, hard drag" in Iraq and Afghanistan (and permanent state of war on terrorism)proves accurate, the U. S. may have no choice but to draft. The Universal National service Act of 2003, "to provide for the common defense by requiring that all young persons(age 18-26) in the United States, including women, perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes." These active bills currently sit in the committee on armed services. Dodging the draft will be more difficult than those from the Vietnam era. College and Canada will not be options. In December, 2001, Canada and the U. S. signed a "smart border declaration," which could be used to keep would-be draft dodgers in. Signed by Canada's minister of foreign affairs, John Manley, and U. S. Homeland Security director, Tom Ridge, the declaration involves a 30 point plan which implements, among other things, a "pre-clearance agreement" of people entering and departing each country. Reforms aimed at making the draft more equitable along gender and class lines also eliminates higher education as a shelter. Underclassmen would only be able to postpone service until the end of their current semester. Seniors would have until the end of the academic year. From sean at valuationpartners.com.au Wed Sep 29 04:31:14 2004 From: sean at valuationpartners.com.au (Sean Diggins ) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:31:14 +0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <20040929035833.DA20CC087@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20040929043108.E7787D457@vscan02.westnet.com.au> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Sean Diggins For example, nothing solid/inert Inert was the wrong word.... Should I have said solid/static? Or solid/stationary? Or.... Sean From emlynoregan at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 04:48:54 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:18:54 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] A liquid that freezes when heated In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927235021.0292f698@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20040927235021.0292f698@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc0409282148486cd457@mail.gmail.com> Used in conjunction with wax or some plastics (which melt above certain temperatures), you'd think there could be casting applications for this material, especially if it's solid forming temperature is lower than the wax/plastic melting point. -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * ----- Original Message ----- From: Hara Ra Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:53:47 -0700 Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] A liquid that freezes when heated To: ExI chat list Fire sprinkler systems often use fuzible links to open the valves above a certain temperature - independent of any external power. I can see biotech labs with culture media with the reverse requirement, a "too cool" alarm system. It freezes when heated, and when cooled, melts. Pretty neat. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/9/15 Any ideas on it's usefulness? >"Kevin Freels" ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 05:09:51 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:09:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040928215415.99933.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929050951.88870.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> So what alternatives could Hoover have chosen after '29 to avoid Keynesianism? What could Hoover and FDR have done for free-market agriculture? Incidentally, I'm one of the city peasants you refer to. However by being miserly I've got almost enough to purchase an urban dwelling. But doing so would merely make one into a lumpen prole who pays property taxes to fund public schools, correct? > Okay, here goes: the US has such vast agricultural > capacity that were > it all let loose, food would be grown at such little > profit that nobody > would make any money at it, and consequently the > government would earn > no tax revinues from the activity. > > Since the 30's, in the interests of keeping the > 'American family > farm', a cultural icon, intact, the government > established a system of > land banking whereby farmers got paid to put their > land in the land > bank and not farm it. The money they were paid was > supposedly paid by > taxes paid on agricultural commerce that did > actually take place at > higher prices thanks to reduced supply of produce. > This artificial > scarcity helps create an artificial tax base that > keeps the government > supplied with revinues by which it can pay out > subsidies. Confused yet? > > It is a rather cynical Georgist plot, is all. Henry > George, a 19th > century socialist economist and philosopher > pioneered the idea of > lifeboat rules as socio-economic policy, > particularly in the area of > land ownership, use, and taxation. A firm believer > in zero sum > economics and agrarian mysticism, George did accept > the concept of > Natural Rights, but tried to claim the absurd notion > that to be > naturally free, you had to have some place of your > own to be free at, > otherwise you were on someone else's property and > therefore unfree as > you were subject to their rules. The idea of earning > and saving one's > earnings to buy a place to be free apparently never > occured to him as a > natural consequence, but he did acknowledge that > while people, if they > are free, should be able to invest their earnings in > private property, > but should also pay rent to the un-landed population > for fencing that > land off from everyone else (especially those too > unproductive and > parasitical to save money). This 'economic scarcity > rent' has come to > be known as 'property taxes'. > > With agriculture, though, a totally free market > experiences no > scarcity, at least not within the bounds of the > utility value of the > collective population. This reduction to commodity > and even fire-sale > pricing makes for low value (i.e. peasant) economic > activity and little > government revinue to pay economic scarcity rent to > those who are not > dumb enough to get stuck working on a farm their > entire lives. So, > therefore, artificial scarcity and subsequently > artificial prices, need > to be established to enhance government revinue. > Still with me? > > Once this artificial scarcity is established, via > land banking, land > trusts, current use property tax rates, and other > mechanisms, then the > lumpen proletariat in the cities who can no longer > afford expensive > rural land can complain and elect politicians who > will perpetuate the > system while extracting more money from the > remaining middle class to > pay danegeld to the city peasant. > > In a similar way, communities pass zoning, planning, > and building > ordinances in order to reduce the amount of acrage > in a community which > can be developed for specific uses. Again, this is > artificially created > scarcity that raises prices and thus inflates (er, > 'enhances') tax > revinues. > > So, tell me something: why is it that city dwellers > are so enamored of > supporting environmental groups that drive people > off the land (and > into the cities) while rural people just believe in > self-responsibility, i.e. stewardship, in taking > care of the land they own? ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 05:24:11 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:24:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] do people actually fall for this stuff? 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Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 05:32:09 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:32:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040928195917.02918510@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01b001c4a5e5$aac70500$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > From: Hara Ra > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering > > I was musing about the problem today: > > 1) If the air bubbles are put into the water, I have totally > ignored the > fact that 100 meters of water is about 10 atm pressure, and > when air is > compressed this much it becomes hot (think diesel engines compression > ratio). The energy to compress the air is not avoidable, and > once the air > enters the water there is no means to keep the air hot. I > don't want to > to the math, but compressing 1 M^3 of air to 100atm (10 liters) takes > vastly more energy than lifting 1 M^3 of water by 1M... I too was playing amateur musemiester, and had an idea. I did a back-of-the-envelope calc to estimate the amount of energy to compress air to 10 atm. It's a lot. But all is not lost, for I had a notion that we might be able to compress the air to that level using wave action. I will attempt a description: imagine a large floating platform that has superstructure above and below the surface with a steel structure between, so that the structure stays at about the same level while the waves rise and fall. Now imagine a piston, perhaps a square meter, being pushed up and down by a floating object, compressing the air. One way valves hold the air in a 10 atm tank. That wasn't a very good description. Imagine an ocean liner with fishing boats moored alongside. The choppy waves have very little impact on the liner, but the smaller boats bob with the waves. Imagine using the liner as a nearly stationary platform and the fishing boats driving pistons to compress air in a tank aboard the liner. We do get a lot of waste heat, but wave action is free. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Sep 29 05:54:55 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 22:54:55 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <7a321705040928212810019380@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01b101c4a5e8$d8bbf990$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > Zero Powers > Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? > > > OK folks, I got the below very breathless email about a purported > looming draft bill. I didn't follow the links, and barely perused the > message. But I remember there was debate on this list about whether > dubya is out to implement a draft. Perhaps this answers that > question? > > Zero > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:21:57 -0700 > Subject: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? > To: Zero Powers > > Mandatory draft for males and females (ages 18-26) starting June > 15,2005, is something that everyone should know about... Hmmm, several items in there immediately tipped me off that this article is as reliable as the former "news" service carried by Sea of BS, and their unimpeachable anchor Dan Blather. Consider: "Also, crossing into Canada has already been made very difficult." Really? "...send this on to all the parents and teachers you know,and all the aunts and uncles, grandparents, godparents. . .And let your children know - - it's their future, and they can be a powerful voice for change!" Puleeease. I looked up the sponsor Charles Rangel, and learned that he is a democrat. Looked up a couple of the cosponsors, such as Neil Abercrobie, democrat, I already know that Pete Stark is a wicked democrat. I suspect all these are democrats. Rep Abercrombie, Neil [HI-1] - 1/7/2003 Rep Brown, Corrine [FL-3] - 1/28/2003 Rep Christensen, Donna M. [VI] - 5/19/2004 Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy [MO-1] - 1/28/2003 Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14] - 1/7/2003 Rep Cummings, Elijah E. [MD-7] - 1/28/2003 Rep Hastings, Alcee L. [FL-23] - 1/28/2003 Rep Jackson, Jesse L., Jr. [IL-2] - 7/21/2004 Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila [TX-18] - 1/28/2003 Rep Lewis, John [GA-5] - 1/7/2003 Rep McDermott, Jim [WA-7] - 1/7/2003 Rep Moran, James P. [VA-8] - 1/28/2003 Rep Stark, Fortney Pete [CA-13] - 1/7/2003 Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. [NY-12] - 1/28/2003 Theory: the democrats trumped up a fakey draft bill for strictly political reasons. Note the language in the bill. Note that you never heard more about it even tho it was introduced over a year and a half ago. Into the bit bucket with it, Zero. {8-] spike From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 05:55:39 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:55:39 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wesley J. Smith on "right to research" Message-ID: <470a3c52040928225570d8b3b0@mail.gmail.com> Wesley J. Smith, the author of "A Consumer's Guide to A Brave New World", has published an article on the Weekly Standard on "Constitutional Cloning - Do scientists have a First Amendment right to do whatever they please?". The article is a reply to Brian Alexander's New York Times Magazine article "Free to Clone" on the notion that the First Amendment creates a "right to research". Smith does not agree: "The text of the First Amendment protects the rights to free speech, a free press, religious liberty, the ability to peacefully assemble, and to petition the government for redress of grievances. What it does not do is guarantee a right to engage in conduct." Needless to say, I found Alexander's arguments much more persuading. To illustrate the "negative attitude" of those who advocate free research, Smith reports that a recent paper published by the National Science Foundation entitled "Converging Technologies for Improving Human Performance," asserted ecstatically that if we but fund and unleash the power of science, "The twenty-first century could end in world peace, universal prosperity, and evolution to a higher level of compassion and accomplishment." Smith continues: "Advocates of a so-called "right to research" assert that scientific experiments should be protected by the First Amendment because, as one bioethicist told Alexander, science "really challenges or explores cultural or political norms," which, "is an act of rebellion . . . in the spirit of the First Amendment." In other words, because the results of some experiments could upset people and/or change their views about life, scientific experiments are actually advocacy, and hence, should be stretched into being perceived as a form of protected speech. The just gearing-up advocacy campaign to equate research with political expression arises out of the ongoing clamorous debate over biotechnology. The Science and Bioethics Establishments are outraged by legislative attempts at the federal and state levels to outlaw human cloning and frustrated by the funding restrictions President Bush placed on embryonic stem cell research. To prohibit any future "political interference" with science, some scientists and biotech advocates want to permanently unmoor scientific inquiry from most societal regulation and control. Having the courts issue a cloning Roe v. Wade establishing a "right to research" would be just the ticket. Our political institutions must be allowed to set reasonable parameters around the depth and scope of scientific inquiry. This important role of government would be thwarted if the Constitution is interpreted to include a right to research. Not only would it craft a narrow constitutional right open only to a very narrow category of people, e.g., scientists, but it would imbed the amoral beliefs of scientism into the Constitution, creating the possibility that rather than serving society, science would come to dominate it." http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/future/wesley-j-smith-on-right-to-research/ From amara at amara.com Wed Sep 29 07:03:41 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:03:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... Message-ID: Voting for US citizens and armed forces abroad - The Pentagon unblocked the voter information site but, according to this story: http://www.iht.com/articles/541012.html voting for citizens abroad is still a problem. I agree with the article. I registered in June, completed the official request for an absentee ballot. It was supposed to mailed to me by Sept 20. I need to put it in the mail by October 15. But no absentee ballot to be seen. Grrrr....... Amara From scerir at libero.it Wed Sep 29 06:29:03 2004 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:29:03 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: antiaging paper References: <200409281800.i8SI0r006326@tick.javien.com> <4159D209.1010301@lineone.net> Message-ID: <004201c4a5ed$9d6969e0$54b81b97@administxl09yj> > > Yeats lifetime extended 5 times! > Which one, Jack or William? Entangled letters or fingers there, eh? s. That God has laid His fingers on the sky, That from those fingers glittering summer runs Upon the dancer by the dreamless wave. - William (I suppose) Yeast From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 06:26:46 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:26:46 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Scientists continuing study of consciousness Message-ID: <470a3c5204092823263743d834@mail.gmail.com> Francis Crick decided to devote his life to unraveling two mysteries: the foundation for all living things and how the brain gives rise to the mind. By 1953, Crick and his young American collaborator, James Watson, had solved the first mystery with their model of DNA, igniting a revolution in biology and earning a permanent place in the annals of science. The riddle of the mind, however, remains intractable as ever. Tomorrow, when the Salk Institute in La Jolla hosts a public memorial for Crick, who died July 28 at 88, that unfinished business will most certainly be talked about. How billions of brain cells interpret sensations, draw on memory and association to make sense of them, and create conscious thoughts about the world is unknown. "It's inconceivable to us, but somehow it happens," said Terry Sejnowski, a computational neurobiologist at the Salk Institute who studies how computers can be used to understand the brain. "Consciousness is elusive," he said. "It's hard to pin down." Pondered by theologians and philosophers throughout the ages, human consciousness is ultimately the product of biology ? bewildering as it is, scientists say. "Your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules," Crick wrote in his 1994 book, "The Astonishing Hypothesis." Illuminating how the brain creates consciousness would profoundly change the way humans view themselves, scientists say. With blueprints in hand, medicine could someday find new treatments for mental illness. Antisocial behaviors such as violence and sexual abuse might be addressed in new ways. Engineers could build machines that truly think, bringing artificial intelligence out of science fiction and into the real world. "It's open skies, if you think about it," Sejnowski said. "It's like the holy grail." San Diego Union -Tribune http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/science/20040926-9999-1m26aware.html From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 08:25:20 2004 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:25:20 +0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Future of Cosmetic Neurology Debated Message-ID: <470a3c520409290125576ed6b5@mail.gmail.com> >From Medical News Today, an article on the future of cosmetic neurology. While one purpose of medicine is to improve the quality of life of individuals who are sick, should medical knowledge be extended to enhance the lives of those who are already healthy? This question and others are addressed in three articles about cosmetic neurology in the September 28 issue of Neurology, the scientific journal of the American Academy of Neurology. Abstract can be browsed on the Neurology Online website, access to full text articles requires subscription. Cosmetic neurology goes beyond the use of botulinum toxin for smoothing wrinkles and includes applying medical therapies to enhance normal abilities. In the journal's "Views & Reviews" section, Anjan Chatterjee, MD, a neurologist at the University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, describes movement and endurance, attention and memory, and moods as three areas of cosmetic neurology. For example, amphetamines that help stroke patients could possibly benefit healthy individuals during a time of skilled motor learning, like playing the piano or swimming. Transcranial magnetic stimulation used to treat clinical depression could be applied to people who simply have "off" days. Cosmetic neurology has ethical implications for both individuals and society, Chatterjee said. For the individual, concerns include safety and the notion that the self is challenged by chemically altering the brain. For society, concerns include the potential inequality of access to cosmetic neurology, as well as the coercion to use enhancements to compete at the highest level in a winner-take-all environment. Chatterjee sees the development of cosmetic neurology moving forward due to the growth of direct-to-consumer marketing and the military's research efforts. Abstract of Chatterjee's article: Advances in cognitive neuroscience and neuropharmacology are yielding exciting treatments for neurologic diseases. Many of these treatments are also likely to have uses for people without disease. Here, I review the ways in which medicine might make bodies and brains function better by modulating motor, cognitive, and affective systems. These potential "quality of life" interventions raise ethical concerns, some related to the individual and others related to society. Despite these concerns, I argue that major restraints on the development of cosmetic neurology are not likely. Neurologists and other clinicians are likely to encounter patient-consumers who view physicians as gatekeepers in their own pursuit of happiness. http://transhumanism.org/index.php/more/future-of-cosmetic-neurology-debated/ From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua Wed Sep 29 11:09:34 2004 From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:09:34 +0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] POLITICS: National security In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040929143952.00b135f0@pop.cris.net> The best prefix to describe the situation: peri-? Perifascist state? Is the game over? ====== -- Jim Garrison - New Orleans District Attorney JFK Assassination Investigation Remarks "What worries me deeply, and I have seen it exemplified in this case, is that we in America are in great danger of slowly eroding into a proto-fascist state. It will be a different kind of fascist state from the one the Germans evolved; theirs grew out of depression and promised bread and work, while ours, curiously enough, seems to be emerging from prosperity. But in the final analysis, it's based on power and on the inability to put human goals and human conscience above the dictates of the State. Its origins can be traced in the tremendous war machine we've built since 1945, the 'military-industrial complex' that Eisenhower vainly warned us about, which now dominates every aspect of our life. The power of the states and the Congress has gradually been abandoned to the Executive Department, because of war conditions; and we've seen the creation of an arrogant, swollen bureaucratic complex totally unfettered by the checks and balances of the Constitution. "In a very real and terrifying sense, our Government is the CIA and the Pentagon, with Congress reduced to a debating society. Of course, you can't spot this trend to fascism by casually looking around. You can't look for such familiar signs as the swastika, because they won't be there. We won't build Dachaus and Auschwitzes; the clever manipulation of the mass media is creating a concentration camp of the mind that promises to be far more effective in keeping the populace in line. We're not going to wake up one morning and suddenly find ourselves in gray uniforms goose-stepping off to work. But this isn't the test. The test is: What happens to the individual who dissents? In Nazi Germany, he was physically destroyed; here the process is more subtle, but the end results are the same. I've learned enough about the machinations of the CIA in the past year to know that this is no longer the dreamworld America I once believed in... I've always had a kind of knee-jerk trust in my Government's basic integrity, whatever political blunders it may make. But I've come to realize that in Washington, deceiving and manipulating the public are viewed by some as the natural prerogatives of office. Huey Long once said, 'Fascism will come to America in the name of anti-fascism.' I'm afraid, based on my own long experience, that fascism will come to America in the name of national security." ====== From anyservice at cris.crimea.ua Wed Sep 29 10:57:19 2004 From: anyservice at cris.crimea.ua (Gennady Ra) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:57:19 +0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <20040929015007.5EEA1DB69@vscan02.westnet.com.au> References: <710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20040929140638.00ad69e0@pop.cris.net> At 09:50 AM 9/29/04 +0800, you Sean Diggins wrote: >Somewhere along the way, Bill says "mind if I hum a tune" and I of course >say "no problem." He starts humming the most beautiful, melancholic melody >that I cant resist adding a "Nashville shaded third", and even stetching >beyond, going in harmonic directions I never even normally think of.....but >every decision works beautifully. Murray is stunned and naturally says "you >must be a singer", which I'm not. I am a professional musician (double bass >player) and audio engineer. I do sing harmony and the occasional lead, but >I'm not very good at it and have a lot of trouble with pitch and note >choices. I gravitate towards the 5th, swapping to the 3rd without any >particular reason or at any particular time. And I often miss...unless >extensively rehearsed. Even then, I mostly sing a bit flat. Yet in this >dream, both Bill and I have perfect pitch. Other things subsequently occur >involving Bill which are hilarious, but this is the part of the dream I'm >most interested in. > >My question to the list is this: Is it possible that conscious limitations >to our musical abilities are bypassed when we are asleep? Is this a problem >related to the fact that my physical senses were only functioning >metaphorically? and then Hara Ra wrote >I suspect "seeming", in which a sensation or event is replaced by an >impression of same, is one of the brain's way of symbolizing or >presymbolizing things without using all the resources needed for a full >instance of same. While in dream or stoned space, I wouldn't be surprised if >the "This is a marker" signal tends to be lost and the default is to >experience the item as complete and real. > >In my younger years I liked to eat a few magic cookies and listen to music >with headphones and eyeshades. It was often very visonary. I gradually >became aware that most of the richness was from "seemings", and that a very >close look at my experience revealed this aspect. Kind of the inverse of "If >it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, the it is a duck", ie, >"Tag:'duck' - implies presence of walk and quack" From Review, by William L. Benzon, of The Antipodes of the Mind: Charting the Phenomenology of the Ayahuasca Experience by Benny Shanon: ...read the following statement by Shanon (pp. 351-352): . . . under the intoxication, drinkers may move back and forth smoothly between radically different states of mind. Such movement need not be either erratic or chaotic, and for the experienced drinker it may even have the feel of playfulness. As I have suggested earlier, I would liken it to surfing the waves of the sea, or a bird?s flight, or perhaps a musician?s masterful playing (sic) of his or her instrument. The surfing image conveys a sense that one is carried, that one only gives a nudge in this or that direction, allowing the board and the waves do the rest. That is certainly how improvisation feels when it is going well - and by that I mean routinely well, what an experienced player can achieve at will. You head off in this or that musical ?direction? and expect hands, breath, and fingers to take care of all the details automatically; you do not have time to think things through at the level of specific notes and phrases. Further, you intend to hear certain sounds rather than intending to execute certain motor actions. Motor execution is automatic. It is only when something goes wrong that you may start thinking about what your lips, hands, lungs, and feet should be doing. Given musical knowledge, on the one hand, and a willingness to allow the music to happen, on the other hand, one can improvise. That willingness, that attitude, is as important as the musical knowledge. With that in mind, consider the following story Shanon tells about a private ayahuasca session: In an amateur fashion, I have been playing the piano since childhood. I have played only classical music, always from the score, never improvising . . . Once during a private Ayahuasca session, I saw the piano in front of me. A score of a Bach prelude was there. I played the piece repeatedly and felt I was entering into a trance. Then, I left the score aside and began to improvise. I played for more than an hour, and the manner of my playing was different from anything I have ever experienced. It was executed in one unfaltering flow, constituting an ongoing narration that was composed as it was being executed. It appeared that my fingers just knew where to go. Throughout this act, my technical performance astounded me. At times, I felt that a force was upon me and that I was performing at its command. (pp. 220-221) Someone who had been present during this performance remarked that ?It seemed that the Muses descended upon you.? Shanon has subsequently continued to improvise without partaking of ayahuasca, though he remarks that ?the quality of this playing is not like that under the intoxication.? ====== Here we have a sideliner, a presumably "strait" observer. I believe that the enhancement is real, be it with drugs or dream(like) states: Shanon then could improvise without any intoxication. And I read somewhere that McCartney heard Yesterday in his dream and then just wrote it down. A pretty pretty duck! Best! Gennady Simferopol Crimea Ukraine From amara at amara.com Wed Sep 29 13:32:48 2004 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:32:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] POLITICS: National security Message-ID: Gennady Ra anyservice at cris.crimea.ua : >The best prefix to describe the situation: peri-? Perifascist state? >Is the game over? >-- Jim Garrison - New Orleans District Attorney > JFK Assassination Investigation Remarks >"What worries me deeply, and I have seen it exemplified in this case, >is that we in America are in great danger of slowly eroding into a >proto-fascist state. I wrote the following two years ago to the extropians list under the Subject "botched diplomacy". I think very little has changed in the last two years, only further along in a direction, which nobody likes. Amara ==========November 25, 2002=========================================== Among the hypocrisy and ironies about the country that is flag-waving the world's freedom, it that it has given it up so much freedom within its own borders. Now international human rights organization are watching the U.S. So what is going on? Did the U.S. citizens fall asleep ? Freedom for Safety http://www.reason.com/0210/fe.ng.freedom.shtml For whom the Liberty Bell tolls http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=1301751 The New Neighborhood Watch (horrors of Orwell's 1984) http://www.citizencorps.gov/watch.html http://www.geocities.com/hal9000report/hal30.html U.S. correctional population at record high (and it has more people in prison than Russia, Belarus, South Africa, Thailand, England, China, France, Italy, Japan ... read more in The Economist 10 August 2002) http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/08/25/jail.stats/ Plus, does anyone notice how the U.S. government uses the word 'freedom'? The context is 'liberty' and 'freedom' forced upon other people at the point of a gun. I am alarmed to the depths of my toes to see the words: "morality", "human rights", "liberty" used in the way I've seen it used in the U.S. media. and among some U.S. citizens. Part of the foundation of the Total State (totalitarianism) is laid when common but valuable words are rewritten to have a new meaning. That is, propaganda. For example the Soviet propaganda in 1979 for why the Soviets invaded Afghanistan was to "free their women" [you mean those women who were going to university and wearing blue jeans?) and "modernize their country" [that had a flourishing infrastructure?] and 1939 invading the Baltics was to "protect them against the threat of incursion" [no comment needed]. The word "liberty" is the worst offender, according to Hayek. ------------- Quote from F. Hayek (pg. 172-173, _Road to Serfdom_): "The most efficient technique to this end is to use the old words but change their meaning. Few traits of totalitarian regimes are at the same time so confusing to the superficial observer and yet so characteristic of the whole intellectual climate as the complete perversion of language, the change of meaning of the words by which the ideals of the new regimes are expressed. The worst sufferer in this respect is, of course, the word "liberty." It is a word used as freely in totalitarian states as elsewhere. Indeed, it could almost be said -- and it should serve as a warning to us to be on our guard -- that wherever liberty as we understand it has been destroyed, this has almost always been done in the name of some new freedom promised to the people. [...] But "freedom" or "liberty" are by no means the only words whose meaning has been changed into their opposites to make them serve as instruments of totalitarian propaganda. We have already seen how the same happens to "justice" and "law," "right" and "equality." The list could be extended until it includes almost all moral and political terms in general use. If one has not one's self experienced this process, it is difficult to appreciate the magnitude of this change of the meaning of words, the confusion which it causes, and the barriers to any rational discussion which it creates. It has to be seen to be understand how, if one of two brothers embraces the after a short while he appears to speak a different language which makes any real communication between them impossible. And the confusion becomes worse because this change of meaning of the words describing political ideals is not a single event but a continuous process, a technique employed consciously or unconsciously to direct the people. Gradually, as this process continues, the whole language becomes despoiled, and words become empty shells deprived of any definite meaning, as capable of denoting one thing as its opposite and used solely for the emotional associations which still adhere to them." ------------ I can't begin to express how upset it makes me when I see the direction that the U.S. is going. Amara -- through December 2002: Max-Planck-Institut f?r Kernphysik, Cosmic Dust Group, Heidelberg, Deutschland from January 2003: Consiglio Nazionale delle Ricerche, Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario, Roma, Italia From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 12:49:53 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 05:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929124953.23617.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matthew Gingell wrote: > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > Okay, here goes: the US has such vast agricultural capacity that > were > > it all let loose, food would be grown at such little profit that > nobody > > would make any money at it, and consequently the government would > earn > > no tax revinues from the activity. > > This is a silly premise, and fails to motivate the argument that > proceeds from it. You never lived through the 1930's did you? Haven't you studied your history? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 12:55:31 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 05:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040929125531.62270.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Emlyn wrote: > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey > wrote: > > So little crime is actually reported to police in europe (and so > few > > police actually keep track of it) that it is meaningless to go by > > police reports. You need to survey the population, instead. > > > > Do you have such a survey? Look, I've posted the data several times in the past when europeans made stupid statements about US crime. Go look in the archives. Whoever it was that posted TWO statistical categories was cherry picking. I said ALL property crime, not just car theft. It logically follows that since we have the most cars here in the US that there would be a higher incidence of auto theft. I'll bet the incidence of bicycle theft in europe is astronomical compared to the US. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 12:59:54 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 05:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20040928195917.02918510@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929125954.47434.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hara Ra wrote: > I was musing about the problem today: > > 1) If the air bubbles are put into the water, I have totally ignored > the > fact that 100 meters of water is about 10 atm pressure, and when air > is > compressed this much it becomes hot (think diesel engines compression > > ratio). The energy to compress the air is not avoidable, and once the > air > enters the water there is no means to keep the air hot. I don't > want to > to the math, but compressing 1 M^3 of air to 100atm (10 liters) takes > > vastly more energy than lifting 1 M^3 of water by 1M. You are forgetting something: a) heat will be transferred to water by the bubbles, which will assist in its rising. b) as the water rises, it will decompress, which will cool the water back down. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 13:09:40 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <7a321705040928212810019380@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040929130940.48757.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Zero Powers wrote: > OK folks, I got the below very breathless email about a purported > looming draft bill. I didn't follow the links, and barely perused > the > message. But I remember there was debate on this list about whether > dubya is out to implement a draft. Perhaps this answers that > question? > > Zero > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 21:21:57 -0700 > Subject: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? > To: Zero Powers > > Mandatory draft for males and females (ages 18-26) starting June > 15,2005, is something that everyone should know about. This literally > affects everyone since we all have or know children that will have to > go if this bill passes. There is pending legislation in the house and > senate (companion bills:89 and HR 163) which will time the program's > initiation so the draft can begin as early as spring, 2005, just > after > the 2004 presidential election. The administration is quietly trying > to get these bills passed now, while the public's attention is on the > elections, so our action on this is needed immediately. This is an absolutely bullshit lie, as I've detailed here several times (but apparently the monkey cage keeps trying to make the shit stick to the wall). The bills in congress are ONLY sponsored by Democrats, who are cynically trying to scare people into voting against Bush. They have ABSOLUTELY no support by the Bush administration, or by the defense department. The only administrations trying to get these bills past is the hallucinated government in exile of Al Gore and the hallucinated future administration of John Kerry ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 13:32:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:32:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040929050951.88870.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > So what alternatives could Hoover have chosen after > '29 to avoid Keynesianism? What could Hoover and FDR > have done for free-market agriculture? > Incidentally, I'm one of the city peasants you refer > to. However by being miserly I've got almost enough to > purchase an urban dwelling. But doing so would merely > make one into a lumpen prole who pays property taxes > to fund public schools, correct? You already pay property taxes, indirectly, by paying rent (part of which pays the owners property tax bill). Hoover would not have needed to do anything if he had instead suspended the Federal Reserve Act, preferably as early as 1927. What really happened was that England had been instituting its welfare state in the 1920's, and the tax demands had forced them into over-issuing their currency, debasing it, while simultaneously keeping its value tacked to the dollar at an improper rate. The British gold and silver stocks were drained by consumerism buying US products. Finally, the Brits took themselves off the gold standard, their currency collapsed, and they begged us to extend them credit to get their house in order. We did, but they didn't get their situation straightened out, they just kept spending, until US credit markets were maxed out and loans started getting called in. Investors needed to liquidate their holdings to pay back loans that were called in, and stock prices collapsed. If we had not extended the Brits credit under the reserve act, they would have still collapsed, but not as badly, and we would not have had the great depression, because our own credit markets would have survived. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 13:33:29 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:33:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20040928150716.58572.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> <710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:57:46 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > So little crime is actually reported to police in europe (and so few > > police actually keep track of it) that it is meaningless to go by > > police reports. You need to survey the population, instead. > > > > Do you have such a survey? > It is almost a futile exercise to compare crime statistics between countries. What is analysed as a serious crime in one country might only be counted as a misdemeanour in another. The circumstances and problems are different from country to country. Some countries have more guns available. Some countries have a criminal refugee problem. In some countries the police are corrupt. In some countries law and order has virtually broken down. In some countries the actual collection of crime figures is very dubious. Your only chance of good comparisons are where the countries are virtually identical, and then they will probably have identical crime stats as well. :) BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 13:38:22 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929133822.30659.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > > Voting for US citizens and armed forces abroad - > > The Pentagon unblocked the voter information site but, according to > this > story: > > http://www.iht.com/articles/541012.html > > voting for citizens abroad is still a problem. Tell me, Amara, if this is so important to you, why don't you ever protest the fact that many tens of thousands of absentee ballots returned by overseas military personnell are routinely left uncounted and thrown away by Democratic elections officials? That this happened in many parts of the country in the 2000 elections, and is responsible for the close election in Florida (where Bush would have won by more than 10,000 votes if military ballots had not been thrown out). Or is it because of WHO military people tend to vote for that you are silent on this issue? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dwish at indco.net Wed Sep 29 13:45:47 2004 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:45:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200409291300.i8TD0gS9013047@br549.indconet.com> This is why I enjoy reading Mike's emails to the list. A true scholar of history. Beside I like Keynesianism or is it Dave Crockett-ism, both true patriots, Christians, and followers of the founding document for which this country is (was) based. This is why economics should be included in public schools as a core class. Dustin Wish System Engineer & Programmer INDCO Networks Pres. OSSRI ******************************************************** "Get your feet off my desk, get out of here, you stink, and we're not going to buy your product.!" Atari Pres. to Steve Jobs when ask to by the new product made in their garage. *********************************************** -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Mike Lorrey Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:33 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth --- Trend Ologist wrote: > So what alternatives could Hoover have chosen after > '29 to avoid Keynesianism? What could Hoover and FDR > have done for free-market agriculture? > Incidentally, I'm one of the city peasants you refer > to. However by being miserly I've got almost enough to > purchase an urban dwelling. But doing so would merely > make one into a lumpen prole who pays property taxes > to fund public schools, correct? You already pay property taxes, indirectly, by paying rent (part of which pays the owners property tax bill). Hoover would not have needed to do anything if he had instead suspended the Federal Reserve Act, preferably as early as 1927. What really happened was that England had been instituting its welfare state in the 1920's, and the tax demands had forced them into over-issuing their currency, debasing it, while simultaneously keeping its value tacked to the dollar at an improper rate. The British gold and silver stocks were drained by consumerism buying US products. Finally, the Brits took themselves off the gold standard, their currency collapsed, and they begged us to extend them credit to get their house in order. We did, but they didn't get their situation straightened out, they just kept spending, until US credit markets were maxed out and loans started getting called in. Investors needed to liquidate their holdings to pay back loans that were called in, and stock prices collapsed. If we had not extended the Brits credit under the reserve act, they would have still collapsed, but not as badly, and we would not have had the great depression, because our own credit markets would have survived. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pharos at gmail.com Wed Sep 29 14:00:11 2004 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:00:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040929050951.88870.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:32:57 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Hoover would not have needed to do anything if he had instead suspended > the Federal Reserve Act, preferably as early as 1927. What really > happened was that England had been instituting its welfare state in the > 1920's, and the tax demands had forced them into over-issuing their > currency, debasing it, while simultaneously keeping its value tacked to > the dollar at an improper rate. The British gold and silver stocks were > drained by consumerism buying US products. Finally, the Brits took > themselves off the gold standard, their currency collapsed, and they > begged us to extend them credit to get their house in order. We did, > but they didn't get their situation straightened out, they just kept > spending, until US credit markets were maxed out and loans started > getting called in. Investors needed to liquidate their holdings to pay > back loans that were called in, and stock prices collapsed. > > If we had not extended the Brits credit under the reserve act, they > would have still collapsed, but not as badly, and we would not have had > the great depression, because our own credit markets would have survived. > Heh :) You have to laugh at Mike's view of economic history seen through US patriot/libertarian blinkers. US War Loans to Europe (not just the Brits) were a minor part of the cause of the US Great Depression. The main cause was the wild speculation which caused the US Stock Market collapse and the virtual cessation of industry and employment in the US. Another major cause was the greatly unequal distribution of wealth from the 'Roaring Twenties' in the US The working class could hardly afford to live and were buying everything on credit. Wealth was concentrated in a tiny percentage of the population and a few hundred very large corporations. The whole setup was very unstable. There were many other contributory causes also. A good writeup (by a US writer!) is at: There are many, many, other historical analyses available on the net. BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 14:08:41 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:08:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929140841.58451.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > > Another major cause was the greatly unequal distribution of wealth > from the 'Roaring Twenties' in the US The working class could hardly > afford to live and were buying everything on credit. Wealth was > concentrated in a tiny percentage of the population and a few hundred > very large corporations. The whole setup was very unstable. You have to laugh at BillK's blinkered view of history through socialist blinders. before the stock market collapse, we had one of the highest percentages of the population with significant investment holdings in our history. Of course, we also had a very high rate of home ownership, though most were mortgaged. When the credit market collapsed due to european socialism, banks called in loans on normal people who had real assets, like homes, farms, etc because these real assets were far easier to get money out of than bankrupt securities. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 14:25:43 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:25:43 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth References: Message-ID: NO NO NO NO NO! Deficits have nothing to do with tax cuts! (This is oversimplified and for brevity I have left out the entire concept of a broader tax base generating more revenues) If you reduce your income by $10,000 per year, and you keep your expenses down by the same amount, there is no problem. The problem is when you reduce your income by $10,000 yr, then your kid needs emergency heart surgery which costs you $100,000. You would have broken even for the year, but now you have a $100k "deficit". The $10,000 income reduction did not cause the deficit, the heart surgery did. Why do so many people have trouble understanding this? Of course, a person would be wise to save their money in a savings account (or similar), but with government it is different. They should not take our money and put it into an account for a rainy day. Nor would they. Whatever they get they will spend. If there was a surplus, they would find something else to spend it on. The voting people would make SURE that the "extra" money was spent on some "worthy cause". Because of this nature of our society, the only two options become deficit or break even, and breaking even is impossible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brent Neal" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth > (9/28/04 12:29) Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >Ah, but you forget the principle of supply side economics (which the > >red states believe in) vs demand side economics (which the blue states > >believe in). Supply siders say that if you reduce the overall tax rates > >on the tax payers, that the economic synergies will actually generate > >more tax revinue as economic growth increases > > > Wow, too bad that hasn't worked out like they hoped they would in re the fricken huge deficits that W.'s asinine tax "cuts" have led us to. Maybe next time they'll figure out that shifting the burden of taxation to the median earners is not a growth policy. > > > B > -- > Brent Neal > Geek of all Trades > http://brentn.freeshell.org > > "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 14:16:47 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:16:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... References: <20040928150716.58572.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com><710b78fc04092817272fbb563b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think you could do a decent comparison if you focused on one crime, such as armed robbery, but it would have to be countries that were very similar. Of course you still have the problem with some countries where the police regularly rob the citizens. In others, they collect "bribes" which is pretty much the same thing as armed robbery except that the victim approaches the armed robber/police officer. I agree that it would be kind of difficult to compare armed robbery stats with a country where the military walks the streets and shoots people on sight after curfew. ----- Original Message ----- From: "BillK" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... > On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:57:46 +0930, Emlyn wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > So little crime is actually reported to police in europe (and so few > > > police actually keep track of it) that it is meaningless to go by > > > police reports. You need to survey the population, instead. > > > > > > > Do you have such a survey? > > > > It is almost a futile exercise to compare crime statistics between countries. > What is analysed as a serious crime in one country might only be > counted as a misdemeanour in another. The circumstances and problems > are different from country to country. Some countries have more guns > available. Some countries have a criminal refugee problem. In some > countries the police are corrupt. In some countries law and order has > virtually broken down. In some countries the actual collection of > crime figures is very dubious. > > Your only chance of good comparisons are where the countries are > virtually identical, and then they will probably have identical crime > stats as well. :) > > BillK > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 14:31:07 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:31:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth References: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I like this. Has anyone proposed that the Brits may have already anticipated this and figured they would bring us down with them on purpose? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth > > --- Trend Ologist wrote: > > > So what alternatives could Hoover have chosen after > > '29 to avoid Keynesianism? What could Hoover and FDR > > have done for free-market agriculture? > > Incidentally, I'm one of the city peasants you refer > > to. However by being miserly I've got almost enough to > > purchase an urban dwelling. But doing so would merely > > make one into a lumpen prole who pays property taxes > > to fund public schools, correct? > > You already pay property taxes, indirectly, by paying rent (part of > which pays the owners property tax bill). > > Hoover would not have needed to do anything if he had instead suspended > the Federal Reserve Act, preferably as early as 1927. What really > happened was that England had been instituting its welfare state in the > 1920's, and the tax demands had forced them into over-issuing their > currency, debasing it, while simultaneously keeping its value tacked to > the dollar at an improper rate. The British gold and silver stocks were > drained by consumerism buying US products. Finally, the Brits took > themselves off the gold standard, their currency collapsed, and they > begged us to extend them credit to get their house in order. We did, > but they didn't get their situation straightened out, they just kept > spending, until US credit markets were maxed out and loans started > getting called in. Investors needed to liquidate their holdings to pay > back loans that were called in, and stock prices collapsed. > > If we had not extended the Brits credit under the reserve act, they > would have still collapsed, but not as badly, and we would not have had > the great depression, because our own credit markets would have survived. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 29 15:06:39 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:06:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: References: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040929100318.01cf20f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 09:31 AM 9/29/2004 -0500, Kevin Freels wrote: >I like this. Has anyone proposed that the Brits may have already anticipated >this and figured they would bring us down with them on purpose? Yes. It's well known that the reptile UFO people run the British crown with this very goal, in cahoots with the international Jewish bankers and communists. The influence of Satanic child abuse covens, working with the Vatican, should not be discounted either. Damien Broderick From jonkc at att.net Wed Sep 29 15:19:08 2004 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:19:08 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] IBM claims supercomputer crown References: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040929100318.01cf20f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <028401c4a637$b734a7f0$83f44d0c@hal2001> http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996461 From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 15:24:13 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] do people actually fall for this stuff? In-Reply-To: <20040929052411.93668.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929152413.19438.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> You'd be surprised how many people have not heard of or forget about the common scams. There are always newbies, and those unable to learn caution. It is from these unfortunates that spam wrests enough money to remain profitable. From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Sep 29 15:24:21 2004 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:24:21 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... References: Message-ID: <415AD3A5.E68A686B@mindspring.com> Amara Graps wrote: > > Voting for US citizens and armed forces abroad - > > The Pentagon unblocked the voter information site but, according to this > story: > > http://www.iht.com/articles/541012.html > > voting for citizens abroad is still a problem. > > I agree with the article. I registered in June, completed the > official request for an absentee ballot. It was supposed to mailed > to me by Sept 20. I need to put it in the mail by October 15. > But no absentee ballot to be seen. Grrrr....... > > Amara Perhaps the postal service in Italy remains chaotic. We were to receive a special delivery international telegram (Bangkok-Roma-Napoli) in 1978. It has yet to arrive. Terry -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From harara at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 29 15:30:13 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:30:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] POLITICS: National security In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20040929143952.00b135f0@pop.cris.net> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20040929143952.00b135f0@pop.cris.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040929082403.0292f280@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Years ago I listened to Ram Dass at a conference on psychedelics. He stated that the ONLY way to alter another person's opinion was by one on one conversation. My shamanic initiation carried much the same message, change comes from within, first with myself. As a cryonicist, I know this doubly so. Chasing politics and the media is like blowing into the wind. >"What worries me deeply, and I have seen it exemplified in this case, is >that we in America are in great danger of slowly eroding into a >proto-fascist state. The test is: What happens to the individual >who dissents? I'm afraid, based on my own long experience, that >fascism >will come to America in the name of national security." Gennady Ra ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Wed Sep 29 15:21:04 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:21:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <20040929125954.47434.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20040928195917.02918510@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20040929125954.47434.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040929081627.02907c28@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> "big whirls have smaller swirls with ever decreasing velocity and so on to viscosity" Air at 10 atm is still 1/50 the density of water. Water has a very large specific heat, so the effect of warming is slight. The adiabatic expansion of the air will cool, to about the same degree. >You are forgetting something: > >a) heat will be transferred to water by the bubbles, which will assist >in its rising. >b) as the water rises, it will decompress, which will cool the water >back down. > >===== >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 15:42:37 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] SpaceShipOne first flight successful In-Reply-To: <20040929152413.19438.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929154237.606.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Unofficially, but it seems they got about half a kilometer above target altitude. The blow-by-blow is at: http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/xprize_full_coverage.html This was on NASA TV, so the second flight (currently scheduled for Oct. 4) probably will be too. From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 15:50:13 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040929140841.58451.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929155013.94310.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- BillK wrote: > > Another major cause was the greatly unequal > distribution of wealth > > from the 'Roaring Twenties' in the US The working > class could hardly > > afford to live and were buying everything on > credit. Wealth was > > concentrated in a tiny percentage of the > population and a few hundred > > very large corporations. The whole setup was very > unstable. > > You have to laugh at BillK's blinkered view of > history through > socialist blinders. > > before the stock market collapse, we had one of the > highest percentages > of the population with significant investment > holdings in our history. > Of course, we also had a very high rate of home > ownership, though most > were mortgaged. When the credit market collapsed due > to european > socialism, banks called in loans on normal people > who had real assets, > like homes, farms, etc because these real assets > were far easier to get > money out of than bankrupt securities. FMI - one of the resulting reforms was that the banks no longer got to call in loans on otherwise credit worthy people, no matter what the status of the banks' other loans, right? Thus preventing that specific disaster from happening again. From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 16:00:20 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:00:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth References: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040929100318.01cf20f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: I just KNEW those communists were being influenced by the Satanists! PETA and Pat Robertson were acting just a bit too cordial recently and I didn;t know why. Thanks for confirming it!:-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth > At 09:31 AM 9/29/2004 -0500, Kevin Freels wrote: > > >I like this. Has anyone proposed that the Brits may have already anticipated > >this and figured they would bring us down with them on purpose? > > Yes. It's well known that the reptile UFO people run the British crown with > this very goal, in cahoots with the international Jewish bankers and > communists. The influence of Satanic child abuse covens, working with the > Vatican, should not be discounted either. > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Wed Sep 29 16:02:09 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:02:09 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040929125531.62270.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040929125531.62270.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Emlyn wrote: > >> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 08:07:16 -0700 (PDT), Mike Lorrey >> wrote: >> > So little crime is actually reported to police in europe (and so >> few >> > police actually keep track of it) that it is meaningless to go by >> > police reports. You need to survey the population, instead. >> > >> >> Do you have such a survey? > >Look, I've posted the data several times in the past when europeans >made stupid statements about US crime. Go look in the archives. Whoever >it was that posted TWO statistical categories was cherry picking. I didn't select those two categories, they were only the first two to cross my mind, and they are subcategories of property crime, and actually your posts didn't show up in the Google search :-)) . Their numbers where radically different, and that's an example of the difficulties involved in making generalizations. >It logically follows that since we have the most cars here in the US that there would be a higher incidence of auto theft. Did you even read my post? the US auto theft rate was lower, relative to the number of circulating cars. Alfio From gingell at gnat.com Wed Sep 29 16:06:53 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:06:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040929100318.01cf20f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20040929133257.68209.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040929100318.01cf20f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Damien Broderick wrote: > > Yes. It's well known that the reptile UFO people run the British crown with > this very goal, in cahoots with the international Jewish bankers and > communists. The influence of Satanic child abuse covens, working with the > Vatican, should not be discounted either. Ah, thanks Damien - I was just wondering how Britain abandoning the gold standard in 1931 caused the market crash of 1929, but I guess that's where the FTL flying saucers come in. Damn those perfidious Reptiloids and their acausal monetary policy! From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 16:26:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040929155013.94310.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929162658.56022.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > FMI - one of the resulting reforms was that the banks > no longer got to call in loans on otherwise credit > worthy people, no matter what the status of the banks' > other loans, right? Thus preventing that specific > disaster from happening again. Actually, no. Ever hear of the S&L crisis? That was another cascade chain of loan recalls. Now, some say that certain groups/organizations purposely tweak market conditions in order to create these events so that they can seize mass amounts of property, but I think it is more a matter of markets either drifting out of baysean conditions, or getting buggered by unexpected legislation/regulation/regulators (like the Telecom Reform Act of 98 buggered the internet bubble). THe key reform following 1929 was that it was made a lot harder for you to borrow money to invest in the market. You have to have real assets behind any such loan now, and those assets have to exceed the value of the loan so that they can't be devalued too much by any market collapse. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 16:30:03 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 09:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929163003.58162.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > >It logically follows that since we have the most cars here in the US > that > there would be a higher incidence of auto theft. > > Did you even read my post? the US auto theft rate was lower, relative > to the number of circulating cars. Ah, if you corrected for that I didn't notice it, sorry. My previous studies of the stats primarily compared the US to Britain, though. I found that murder was really the only crime category that exceeded that of Britain. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 17:11:12 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:11:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [PvT] Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <01b001c4a5e5$aac70500$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040929171112.90401.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> OTECs essentially work by conducting heat from the top of the ocean to the bottom, right? (No energy needed - indeed, they produce electricity.) Would this not effectively result in a (relatively) cold spot up top, especially if some OTECs were designed to emphasize conduction over electricity generation? And mobility, so one could float these into the path of an oncoming hurricane. (Since they're mostly underwater, they would seem likely to suffer little damage when the 'cane passes overhead - especially if their tops were actually a little bit under the ocean's surface.) From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Wed Sep 29 17:22:56 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:22:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] A liquid that freezes when heated Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE010935C6@amazemail2.amazeent.com> One use is in 3D lithoprinting where you need to support disconnected parts of an object. Typically this is done by leaving unsintered powder (which has to be cleaned out), building struts that are then removed, or using some sort of wax that is melted out after the fact. The cleaning process is in fact a big portion of the time and cost for JIT manufacturing of objects. These new materials don't require melting out as they liquify when they cool and can be rinsed clean with water. -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Freels Sent: Monday, 27 September, 2004 09:48 To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] A liquid that freezes when heated It freezes when heated, and when cooled, melts. Pretty neat. http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/9/15 Any ideas on it's usefulness? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 17:35:45 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 10:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] An imaginary anecdote In-Reply-To: <20040929015007.5EEA1DB69@vscan02.westnet.com.au> Message-ID: <20040929173545.40090.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sean Diggins wrote: > My question to the list is this: Is it possible that > conscious limitations > to our musical abilities are bypassed when we are > asleep? Is this a problem > related to the fact that my physical senses were > only functioning > metaphorically? As has been pointed out, all you know is that the music (and the jokes) *seemed to you to be good*, not that they actually were any good. But since you were in an altered state of consciousness (dreaming), your judgement was just as prone to be affected as your sensory input. That said...music is a skill, and like most skills it can be learned by practically any human being. You might be subconsciously aware of parts of it, and those parts might have played a role in your dream, even if you would have to consciously learn it before using it in the waking world. (If this is the case, then if you studied it, you would find certain parts of it to be familiar as if you already knew them. Conversely, if you studied it but found yourself struggling, and found music theory seeming alien and complex, then you would almost certainly not already know much if any of it subconsciously.) From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 17:44:22 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:44:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040929162658.56022.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040929174422.69843.qmail@web25207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Being a cynic, as well as a misanthrope, I think responsibility is more important than liberty, as one person's liberty can be another's enemy or slavery... liberty is something I have some trouble understanding. But responsibility (or liability) is something even an urban peasant can grasp: domestically in first-world nations the private sector is the responsibility of government while the public sector is the responsibility of no one since there is little liability involved. Private investment in third-world nations is of course the liability of the private investors involved, while foreign aid is obviously the liability of taxpayers in first world nations, and when foreign aid is 'lost' (i.e. stolen) no one is liable so more aid can be sent (to again be stolen, perhaps). How is that for cynicism? --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 17:48:46 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:48:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth References: <20040929162658.56022.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >"Now, some say that certain groups/organizations > purposely tweak market conditions in order to create these events so > that they can seize mass amounts of property, " Contrary to popular belief, banks are simply not in the business of taking properties. It serves them no purpose. Most of the time, they lose money on a foreclosure. The rest of the time, they get the balance of their loan, any costs it took to get their money, and the remaining portion of the proceeds go to the former owner. They make their money off interest and they make interest by making loans, not the other way around. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth > > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > FMI - one of the resulting reforms was that the banks > > no longer got to call in loans on otherwise credit > > worthy people, no matter what the status of the banks' > > other loans, right? Thus preventing that specific > > disaster from happening again. > > Actually, no. Ever hear of the S&L crisis? That was another cascade > chain of loan recalls. Now, some say that certain groups/organizations > purposely tweak market conditions in order to create these events so > that they can seize mass amounts of property, but I think it is more a > matter of markets either drifting out of baysean conditions, or getting > buggered by unexpected legislation/regulation/regulators (like the > Telecom Reform Act of 98 buggered the internet bubble). > > THe key reform following 1929 was that it was made a lot harder for you > to borrow money to invest in the market. You have to have real assets > behind any such loan now, and those assets have to exceed the value of > the loan so that they can't be devalued too much by any market collapse. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Wed Sep 29 17:47:46 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:47:46 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] If the nonUS citizens voted in Nov 2 elections... In-Reply-To: <20040929163003.58162.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040929163003.58162.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > >> >It logically follows that since we have the most cars here in the US >> that >> there would be a higher incidence of auto theft. >> >> Did you even read my post? the US auto theft rate was lower, relative >> to the number of circulating cars. > >Ah, if you corrected for that I didn't notice it, sorry. > >My previous studies of the stats primarily compared the US to Britain, >though. I found that murder was really the only crime category that >exceeded that of Britain. Britain is often quite different from the rest of Europe, but even among the different european countries ther are bigger differences than between different US states. It's not entirely inaccurate to consider Britain midway between the two continents, even if its inhabitants would say that their continent is midway between those two islands :-)) It anyway true that some crime categories are often not reported to the police at all, and those categories may be very different in the US and Europe. Alfio From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 17:58:16 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:58:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] cosmetic surgery Message-ID: <20040929175816.51987.qmail@web25203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> What is the big deal concerning a teenager with an bad nose who wants to get it bobbed so she can look like a pop diva? Why do tame psychologists have to agonise about it and talk softly, pretending to care about someone else's teenager, if the parents can pay for the surgery? Just get the surgery over with, who cares if it's 'healthy'? Paying psychologist's bills for teenagers can be as expensive as surgery, and the teen looks in the mirror touching her big nose trying to decide if the psychologist is right about 'beauty being within' and all that tripe. America is so Oprahized. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gingell at gnat.com Wed Sep 29 18:03:50 2004 From: gingell at gnat.com (Matthew Gingell) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:03:50 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: References: <20040929162658.56022.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16730.63750.395594.522109@nile.gnat.com> Kevin Freels writes: > Contrary to popular belief, banks are simply not in the business of taking > properties. It serves them no purpose. Most of the time, they lose money on > a foreclosure. The rest of the time, they get the balance of their loan, any > costs it took to get their money, and the remaining portion of the proceeds > go to the former owner. They make their money off interest and they make > interest by making loans, not the other way around. That isn't always true. Imagine you're a bank: You issue a 30 year fixed mortgage at 6% and rates subsequently go up to 7%. You would very much like to foreclose, get your principal back on the 6% loan, and lend it out again at the higher rate. Otherwise your money is stuck in a less that market rate investment for 30 years. -Matt From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 18:05:57 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 11:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929180557.7654.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > >"Now, some say that certain groups/organizations > > purposely tweak market conditions in order to create these events > so > > that they can seize mass amounts of property, " > > Contrary to popular belief, banks are simply not in the business of > taking properties. It serves them no purpose. Most of the time, they lose money on a foreclosure. I didn't say they would. You assumed. In the wake of the S&L crisis, many people lost their homes, and many developers lost developments they had put a lot of money into. The banks foreclosed on them, and third parties bought them up at auction for far less than their original owners had into them. Banks that weren't able to work this well went into receivership with the Resolution Trust Corporation, which then finished all the liquidations. In the wake of all this, a number of large property management firms and real estate investment trusts made huge amounts by increasing their holdings at a very low cost. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 19:26:39 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:26:39 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth References: <20040929180557.7654.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I assumed that most people probably think that banks like to foreclose on properties. This isn;t the case. Not everybody is as well versed in how banks operate as you are. I didn't assume that you were one of these people. I was commenting on the "some" that say those things. It was obvious that you aren;t one of them. You won;t find me arguing against you on this thread. I am squarely behind you. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > > >"Now, some say that certain groups/organizations > > > purposely tweak market conditions in order to create these events > > so > > > that they can seize mass amounts of property, " > > > > Contrary to popular belief, banks are simply not in the business of > > taking properties. It serves them no purpose. Most of the time, they > lose money on a foreclosure. > > I didn't say they would. You assumed. In the wake of the S&L crisis, > many people lost their homes, and many developers lost developments > they had put a lot of money into. The banks foreclosed on them, and > third parties bought them up at auction for far less than their > original owners had into them. Banks that weren't able to work this > well went into receivership with the Resolution Trust Corporation, > which then finished all the liquidations. In the wake of all this, a > number of large property management firms and real estate investment > trusts made huge amounts by increasing their holdings at a very low cost. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 19:28:05 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:28:05 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth References: <20040929174422.69843.qmail@web25207.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Liberty is simple to understand......You are responsible for you. You are your own liability. Why is that so difficult for so many people the grasp? ----- Original Message ----- From: Trend Ologist To: ExI chat list Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth Being a cynic, as well as a misanthrope, I think responsibility is more important than liberty, as one person's liberty can be another's enemy or slavery... liberty is something I have some trouble understanding. But responsibility (or liability) is something even an urban peasant can grasp: domestically in first-world nations the private sector is the responsibility of government while the public sector is the responsibility of no one since there is little liability involved. Private investment in third-world nations is of course the liability of the private investors involved, while foreign aid is obviously the liability of taxpayers in first world nations, and when foreign aid is 'lost' (i.e. stolen) no one is liable so more aid can be sent (to again be stolen, perhaps). How is that for cynicism? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 19:33:12 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 14:33:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth References: <20040929162658.56022.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <16730.63750.395594.522109@nile.gnat.com> Message-ID: Sounds good, but one in the hand is better than two in the bush. Also, the lender likely borrowed the funds themselves from elsewhere at a lower (prime) rate and since rates are higher in this scenario, the lender sells the new higher rate loan, but also has a higher cost. The margin remains roughly the same. The lender makes no more money in a high rate environment vs a low rate environment. Meanwhile, low rates attract more investors and homebuyers which in turn means more loans are written. In high rate environments, there are less loans to go around and the lender isn;t guaranteed to get a new loan at all. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matthew Gingell" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth > Kevin Freels writes: > > > Contrary to popular belief, banks are simply not in the business of taking > > properties. It serves them no purpose. Most of the time, they lose money on > > a foreclosure. The rest of the time, they get the balance of their loan, any > > costs it took to get their money, and the remaining portion of the proceeds > > go to the former owner. They make their money off interest and they make > > interest by making loans, not the other way around. > > That isn't always true. Imagine you're a bank: You issue a 30 year > fixed mortgage at 6% and rates subsequently go up to 7%. You would > very much like to foreclose, get your principal back on the 6% loan, > and lend it out again at the higher rate. Otherwise your money is > stuck in a less that market rate investment for 30 years. > > -Matt > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 19:39:14 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:39:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929193914.35823.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> And don't forget the transaction costs associated with each shift of money. Some places live off the transaction costs alone, and sell the mortgage itself for someone else (who is more interested in stable, long-term investments than immediately optimal investments) to deal with. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Sounds good, but one in the hand is better than two > in the bush. Also, the > lender likely borrowed the funds themselves from > elsewhere at a lower > (prime) rate and since rates are higher in this > scenario, the lender sells > the new higher rate loan, but also has a higher > cost. The margin remains > roughly the same. The lender makes no more money in > a high rate environment > vs a low rate environment. Meanwhile, low rates > attract more investors and > homebuyers which in turn means more loans are > written. In high rate > environments, there are less loans to go around and > the lender isn;t > guaranteed to get a new loan at all. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew Gingell" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:03 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth > > > > Kevin Freels writes: > > > > > Contrary to popular belief, banks are simply > not in the business of > taking > > > properties. It serves them no purpose. Most of > the time, they lose > money on > > > a foreclosure. The rest of the time, they get > the balance of their > loan, any > > > costs it took to get their money, and the > remaining portion of the > proceeds > > > go to the former owner. They make their money > off interest and they > make > > > interest by making loans, not the other way > around. > > > > That isn't always true. Imagine you're a bank: > You issue a 30 year > > fixed mortgage at 6% and rates subsequently go up > to 7%. You would > > very much like to foreclose, get your principal > back on the 6% loan, > > and lend it out again at the higher rate. > Otherwise your money is > > stuck in a less that market rate investment for > 30 years. > > > > -Matt > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From kurt at metatechnica.com Wed Sep 29 19:51:20 2004 From: kurt at metatechnica.com (Kurt Schoedel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 12:51:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloning and the Constitution Message-ID: Along with many of you, I read with interest the piece by Brain Alexander about how scientific research is protected by the 1st amendment. I would like to add to this discussion. I believe that the opportunity exists to deliver a knockout blow, in terms of legality, to eliminate the bio-luddite pests once and for all. The first amendment specifically states that freedom of expression is protected. Congress cannot make any law that limits self-expression, unless public safety (cannot yell "bomb" in a crowded cinema) or public welfare (reason for laws against "abusive" drugs such as cocaine and heroin) is at stake. Morphological changes to ones body (cosmetic, functional enhancement) is certainly a form of self-expression. Since the kind of enhancements that we want do not pose a threat to public safety or create a "burden" on society (in fact, they do quite the opposite), there is no legal basis or precedent for first amendment rights to be limited. It would seem to me that self-enhancement is, therefor, protected by the 1st amendment. Correct me if I am wrong, but this seems an "air-tight" legal argument to me. Next time Francis Fukuyama brings up the notion of a regulatory committee that would regulate the use of medical technology on the basis of social interest, this fact should be pointed out to him. My suggestion is that a legal fund be created for this specific purpose. When the anti-aging memory boosters come out (which they will by the end of the decade), if there are any "societal interest" restrictions placed on them (i.e. cannot be used for age-related memory loss), that this leagel fund be used to prosecute the case to SCOTUS, if necessary. I believe the LEF (Life Extension Foundation) has both the financial resources as well as the motivation to pursue such a legal action. The LEF has extensive experience battling with regulators and working the legal system. They would have the know how and the perspective to do this successfully. The bio-luddite position that such technology should be limited on the basis of "societal interests" is the classic example of Ayn Rand's comment about how "societal interests" really means that the rights of some people take priority over the rights of others. I believe that the memory-enhancing drugs that are soon to be out will create for us an major legal opportunity to defend our liberties here. Lets not let this opportunity pass. Kurt Schoedel MetaTechnica From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Sep 29 20:11:14 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:11:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloning and the Constitution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040929150310.01b8bec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:51 PM 9/29/2004 -0700, Kurt Schoedel wrote: >The first amendment specifically states that freedom of expression is >protected. Congress cannot make any law that limits self-expression, >unless public safety (cannot yell "bomb" in a crowded cinema) or public >welfare (reason for laws against "abusive" drugs such as cocaine and >heroin) is at stake. Morphological changes to ones body (cosmetic, >functional enhancement) is certainly a form of self-expression. I don't know whether the thread header has any bearing on this opinion, but if it does the opinion seems plainly wrong. Reproductive cloning involves a child's body (and probably the child's mind, given the social consequences). Enhancing oneself is a separate issue (or tissue), surely. >Since >the kind of enhancements that we want do not pose a threat to public >safety or create a "burden" on society (in fact, they do quite the >opposite), But that's one of the issues where we don't yet know whether there's a threat to the newly cloned individual, although all the evidence suggests that there probably is, right now, given the limitations of current scientific knowledge. Now if someone tries to argue that cloning is a terrible sin because it violates the biblical prohibition against seething a kid in its mother's milk, or something along those lines, we'd have a better basis for reasoned argument. Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Sep 29 20:14:19 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloning and the Constitution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929201419.62023.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kurt Schoedel wrote: > the kind of enhancements that we want do not pose a > threat to public > safety or create a "burden" on society (in fact, > they do quite the > opposite) That is the fact being debated. A lot of the "social welfare limits" backers believe that the enhancements *would* create a threat or a burden. That is both their legal justification, and part of their personal motive. It would behoove us to thoroughly prove that these would not, in fact, create threats or burdens in any realistic case, and that this cases being presented where they would (e.g., terrorists have access to advanced forms of these enhancements while normal people don't have any) are totally unrealistic. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Sep 29 20:22:44 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloning and the Constitution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929202244.94041.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kurt Schoedel wrote: > Along with many of you, I read with interest the piece by Brain > Alexander about how scientific research is protected by the 1st > amendment. I would like to add to this discussion. I'd add that freedom of expression extends to reproduction and genetic research (i.e. how your DNA is expressed) specifically because as DNA is essentially information, it can be described as IP, and is thus the product of creativity, ergo expression. Organisms that grow from that DNA are product: sculpture, offspring, etc. Thus, genetic research of any kind is specifically First Amendment activity. HOWEVER: For the same reason that the federal government does not finance, own, or compell the operation of printing presses, computer servers, or radio/tv broadcasters, or churches, temples, tabernackles, or other houses of worship, the federal government cannot and should not be in the business of financing, subsidizing, owning, or compelling genetic research, except in constitutionally authorized areas, like national security related research. The reason for this is that you cannot compel the taxpayer to pay for speech which they are morally or religiously opposed to, just as you cannot compel a person who is morally scrupulous against bearing arms (a concientious objector) to bear arms in the military. It is just as wrong to force someone who believes that abortions are murder to pay for that murder through their taxes, whether you agree with them or not. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:55:53 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:55:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloning and the Constitution References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040929150310.01b8bec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: Unless the questin becomes: "Is cloning myself a matter of self-expression since I am simply copying myself?" This may sound like a silly question since the answer is obvious to anyone who puts real thought into it. Unfortunnately there are many who don't. Maybe it is time to pass a law recognizing a clone as an independent individual. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Cloning and the Constitution > At 12:51 PM 9/29/2004 -0700, Kurt Schoedel wrote: > > >The first amendment specifically states that freedom of expression is > >protected. Congress cannot make any law that limits self-expression, > >unless public safety (cannot yell "bomb" in a crowded cinema) or public > >welfare (reason for laws against "abusive" drugs such as cocaine and > >heroin) is at stake. Morphological changes to ones body (cosmetic, > >functional enhancement) is certainly a form of self-expression. > > I don't know whether the thread header has any bearing on this opinion, but > if it does the opinion seems plainly wrong. Reproductive cloning involves a > child's body (and probably the child's mind, given the social > consequences). Enhancing oneself is a separate issue (or tissue), surely. > > >Since > >the kind of enhancements that we want do not pose a threat to public > >safety or create a "burden" on society (in fact, they do quite the > >opposite), > > But that's one of the issues where we don't yet know whether there's a > threat to the newly cloned individual, although all the evidence suggests > that there probably is, right now, given the limitations of current > scientific knowledge. > > Now if someone tries to argue that cloning is a terrible sin because it > violates the biblical prohibition against seething a kid in its mother's > milk, or something along those lines, we'd have a better basis for reasoned > argument. > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 20:58:12 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:58:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloning and the Constitution References: Message-ID: "but this seems an "air-tight" legal argument to me." "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. " seems pretty straightforward too you know. From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 21:09:44 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:09:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929210944.83023.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Could it be difficult to grasp because of what so many people are taught in public schools? Could it also be the "you are your brother's keeper" indoctrination in religious private schools (85% of private schools are faith-based)? Aren't so many almost programmed to think they do not own themselves? To think they are not their own liability? To think that other people ARE their liability? Could the above and more be some of the reasons it is so difficult for many people to grasp that they are their own liability? Am I a snide little smartass? >Kevin Freels wrote: > Liberty is simple to understand......You are > responsible for you. You are your own liability. Why > is that so difficult for so many people the grasp? ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From megaquark at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 21:20:46 2004 From: megaquark at hotmail.com (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:20:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] BIO: Good article on the latest anti-evolution crusade Message-ID: "Wired" has a great article out today about the current breed of anti-darwinian thought. These people are the same one's who will one day organize against life extension and bringing people back from cryo. They are becoming more efficient at getting their agenda into the schools. These children are our future. I thought everyone may be interested on the new approaches that have been taking. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/evolution.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Wed Sep 29 21:36:14 2004 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:36:14 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth Message-ID: You already pay property taxes and fund public schools by way way of rent. Ultimately, the person you rent from is paying property taxes on your dwelling. BAL >From: Trend Ologist >To: ExI chat list >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth >Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 06:09:51 +0100 (BST) > >So what alternatives could Hoover have chosen after >'29 to avoid Keynesianism? What could Hoover and FDR >have done for free-market agriculture? >Incidentally, I'm one of the city peasants you refer >to. However by being miserly I've got almost enough to >purchase an urban dwelling. But doing so would merely >make one into a lumpen prole who pays property taxes >to fund public schools, correct? > > > > Okay, here goes: the US has such vast agricultural > > capacity that were > > it all let loose, food would be grown at such little > > profit that nobody > > would make any money at it, and consequently the > > government would earn > > no tax revinues from the activity. > > > > Since the 30's, in the interests of keeping the > > 'American family > > farm', a cultural icon, intact, the government > > established a system of > > land banking whereby farmers got paid to put their > > land in the land > > bank and not farm it. The money they were paid was > > supposedly paid by > > taxes paid on agricultural commerce that did > > actually take place at > > higher prices thanks to reduced supply of produce. > > This artificial > > scarcity helps create an artificial tax base that > > keeps the government > > supplied with revinues by which it can pay out > > subsidies. Confused yet? > > > > It is a rather cynical Georgist plot, is all. Henry > > George, a 19th > > century socialist economist and philosopher > > pioneered the idea of > > lifeboat rules as socio-economic policy, > > particularly in the area of > > land ownership, use, and taxation. A firm believer > > in zero sum > > economics and agrarian mysticism, George did accept > > the concept of > > Natural Rights, but tried to claim the absurd notion > > that to be > > naturally free, you had to have some place of your > > own to be free at, > > otherwise you were on someone else's property and > > therefore unfree as > > you were subject to their rules. The idea of earning > > and saving one's > > earnings to buy a place to be free apparently never > > occured to him as a > > natural consequence, but he did acknowledge that > > while people, if they > > are free, should be able to invest their earnings in > > private property, > > but should also pay rent to the un-landed population > > for fencing that > > land off from everyone else (especially those too > > unproductive and > > parasitical to save money). This 'economic scarcity > > rent' has come to > > be known as 'property taxes'. > > > > With agriculture, though, a totally free market > > experiences no > > scarcity, at least not within the bounds of the > > utility value of the > > collective population. This reduction to commodity > > and even fire-sale > > pricing makes for low value (i.e. peasant) economic > > activity and little > > government revinue to pay economic scarcity rent to > > those who are not > > dumb enough to get stuck working on a farm their > > entire lives. So, > > therefore, artificial scarcity and subsequently > > artificial prices, need > > to be established to enhance government revinue. > > Still with me? > > > > Once this artificial scarcity is established, via > > land banking, land > > trusts, current use property tax rates, and other > > mechanisms, then the > > lumpen proletariat in the cities who can no longer > > afford expensive > > rural land can complain and elect politicians who > > will perpetuate the > > system while extracting more money from the > > remaining middle class to > > pay danegeld to the city peasant. > > > > In a similar way, communities pass zoning, planning, > > and building > > ordinances in order to reduce the amount of acrage > > in a community which > > can be developed for specific uses. Again, this is > > artificially created > > scarcity that raises prices and thus inflates (er, > > 'enhances') tax > > revinues. > > > > So, tell me something: why is it that city dwellers > > are so enamored of > > supporting environmental groups that drive people > > off the land (and > > into the cities) while rural people just believe in > > self-responsibility, i.e. stewardship, in taking > > care of the land they own? > > > > > >___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! >Messenger - all new features - even more fun! >http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 22:23:21 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:23:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929222321.90170.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Correct, but when I own a dwelling the tax disbursement will be direct from me to the state, I have a record of it, and all that. > You already pay property taxes and fund public > schools by way way of rent. > Ultimately, the person you rent from is paying > property taxes on your > dwelling. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From extropy at unreasonable.com Wed Sep 29 22:51:27 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:51:27 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040929183234.0ac85cf0@unreasonable.com> Beyond what Spike and Mike said, let me seize the opportunity to take a caber from last week's Highland Games, sharpen one end, add a steel casing, and use a railgun to accelerate it at 9800 fps through the heart of the Hoax That Will Not Die. As the email suggests, check it out at the Congressional web site, thomas.loc.gov. The bill was introduced on 1/7/2003 and referred to committee on 2/3/2003. It has gone nowhere since. According to Americans for Democratic Action, all sponsors of both bills are Democrats and strongly liberal. Bill sponsors or co-sponsors, and their 2003 ADA rating -- 85% Rep Rangel, Charles [NY-15] 95% Rep Abercrombie, Neil - 1/7/2003 [HI-1] 95% Rep Brown, Corrine - 1/28/2003 [FL-3] n/a Rep Christensen, Donna M. - 5/19/2004 [VI] 95% Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 1/28/2003 [MO-1] 90% Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 1/7/2003 [MI-14] 90% Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - 1/28/2003 [MD-7] 100% Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - 1/28/2003 [FL-23] 95% Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - 1/28/2003 [TX-18] 90% Rep Lewis, John - 1/7/2003 [GA-5] 100% Rep McDermott, Jim - 1/7/2003 [WA-7] 95% Rep Moran, James P. - 1/28/2003 [VA-8] n/a Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes - 1/28/2003 [DC] 100% Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 1/7/2003 [CA-13] 90% Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. - 1/28/2003 [NY-12] In the Senate, S.89 was introduced by Fritz Hollings (80% rating) without cosponsors on 1/7/2003, and was immediately referred to committee. There has been no action since. ADA declares itself to be "the nation's oldest independent liberal organization," and says its ratings "have served as the standard guideline measuring a legislator's political liberalism" since 1947. See http://www.adaction.org/2003housevr.htm for House ratings; http://www.adaction.org/2003senatevr.htm for Senate ratings. Christensen and Norton are non-voting delegates (Virgin Islands and DC), so they lack ratings. Meanwhile, DOD's immediate response to the bill was strong opposition. In the Washington Post -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25077-2003Jan7?language=printer >Rumsfeld said troops from Vietnam War conscription added "no value, no >advantage, really, to the United States armed services ... because the >churning that took place, it took an enormous amount of effort in terms of >training, and then they were gone." > >Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, >seconded Rumsfeld's assessment during a Pentagon news conference. > >The Pentagon rebuff came minutes after Rep. Charles B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) >announced he had introduced a measure to require all U.S. citizens and >permanent residents ages 18 to 26 to complete two years of compulsory >service inside or outside the armed forces. For Rumsfeld's and Myers' full answer, see the press conference transcript at http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2003/t01072003_t0107sd.html They remain opposed, a year later, as the Washington Times reported -- http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040422-114404-5320r.htm >"I don't know anyone in the executive branch of the government who >believes it would be appropriate or necessary to reinstitute the draft," >Mr. Rumsfeld told a Washington gathering of members of the Newspaper >Association of America, the American Society of Newspaper Editors and the >Associated Press. The full transcript is at http://www.dod.gov/speeches/2004/sp20040422-secdef0441.html. Rumsfeld has fulminated more than once about why he views drafts as inane and harmful. -- David Lubkin. From kurt at metatechnica.com Wed Sep 29 22:52:29 2004 From: kurt at metatechnica.com (Kurt Schoedel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 15:52:29 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cloning, Constitution: Clarification Message-ID: My post was with regards to self-enhancement therapies (e.g. IQ increase, anti-aging) rather than about reproductive cloning. Sorry for the confusion. About cloning: the 1st amendent does not protect the right to clone reproductively. It protects the right to conduct research work into understanding how it works. Of course, reproductive cloning is not an "individual act" because it involves the creation and, therefor, welbeing of the kid you are creating (the clonee) as well as the rights of the person doing the cloning (cloner). What I was arguing for was a separate interpetation of the 1st amendment than the one that was the subject of Brian Alexandra's article. Personally, I would like to see the whole bioethics community break it down between those acts that adults do to themselves (self-enhancement, anti-aging) and those acts that are done to other people (reproductive cloning, designer kids). the first are clearly individual acts and, therefor, purely a civil liberties issue whereas the second are not. It is unfortunate that embryonic stem cells (therapeutic cloning) exists as an intersection of both classification of acts. If a way to make pluropotent stem cells directly (without making the embryo) is developed, it will separate the two class of acts completely so that the public debate can be focused exclusively on the issues of reproductive technology (things you do to someone else). My suggested legal action would effectively knock the bio-luddites out of the ring on the issue of self-enhancement only. Not on what kind of kids you can have. Presummably, since most people here in this group are interested in living forever young and going out into space and not in having kids, this is the legal victory that we care about. Kurt Schoedel MetaTechnica From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 22:57:18 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:57:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040929183234.0ac85cf0@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <20040929225718.5097.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> There will be no draft...unless an emergency arises, and then the plan would be to conscript three or four million. --- David Lubkin wrote: > Beyond what Spike and Mike said, let me seize the > opportunity to take a > caber from last week's Highland Games, sharpen one > end, add a steel casing, > and use a railgun to accelerate it at 9800 fps > through the heart of the > Hoax That Will Not Die. > > As the email suggests, check it out at the > Congressional web site, > thomas.loc.gov. The bill was introduced on 1/7/2003 > and referred to > committee on 2/3/2003. It has gone nowhere since. > > According to Americans for Democratic Action, all > sponsors of both bills > are Democrats and strongly liberal. Bill sponsors or > co-sponsors, and their > 2003 ADA rating -- > > 85% Rep Rangel, Charles [NY-15] > > 95% Rep Abercrombie, Neil - 1/7/2003 [HI-1] > 95% Rep Brown, Corrine - 1/28/2003 [FL-3] > n/a Rep Christensen, Donna M. - 5/19/2004 [VI] > 95% Rep Clay, Wm. Lacy - 1/28/2003 [MO-1] > 90% Rep Conyers, John, Jr. - 1/7/2003 [MI-14] > 90% Rep Cummings, Elijah E. - 1/28/2003 [MD-7] > 100% Rep Hastings, Alcee L. - 1/28/2003 [FL-23] > 95% Rep Jackson-Lee, Sheila - 1/28/2003 [TX-18] > 90% Rep Lewis, John - 1/7/2003 [GA-5] > 100% Rep McDermott, Jim - 1/7/2003 [WA-7] > 95% Rep Moran, James P. - 1/28/2003 [VA-8] > n/a Rep Norton, Eleanor Holmes - 1/28/2003 [DC] > 100% Rep Stark, Fortney Pete - 1/7/2003 [CA-13] > 90% Rep Velazquez, Nydia M. - 1/28/2003 [NY-12] > > In the Senate, S.89 was introduced by Fritz Hollings > (80% rating) without > cosponsors on 1/7/2003, and was immediately referred > to committee. There > has been no action since. > > ADA declares itself to be "the nation's oldest > independent liberal > organization," and says its ratings "have served as > the standard guideline > measuring a legislator's political liberalism" since > 1947. > > See http://www.adaction.org/2003housevr.htm for > House ratings; > http://www.adaction.org/2003senatevr.htm for Senate > ratings. Christensen > and Norton are non-voting delegates (Virgin Islands > and DC), so they lack > ratings. > > Meanwhile, DOD's immediate response to the bill was > strong opposition. In > the Washington Post -- > http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A25077-2003Jan7?language=printer > > >Rumsfeld said troops from Vietnam War conscription > added "no value, no > >advantage, really, to the United States armed > services ... because the > >churning that took place, it took an enormous > amount of effort in terms of > >training, and then they were gone." > > > >Air Force Gen. Richard B. Myers, chairman of the > Joint Chiefs of Staff, > >seconded Rumsfeld's assessment during a Pentagon > news conference. > > > >The Pentagon rebuff came minutes after Rep. Charles > B. Rangel (D-N.Y.) > >announced he had introduced a measure to require > all U.S. citizens and > >permanent residents ages 18 to 26 to complete two > years of compulsory > >service inside or outside the armed forces. > > For Rumsfeld's and Myers' full answer, see the press > conference transcript at > http://www.dod.gov/transcripts/2003/t01072003_t0107sd.html > > They remain opposed, a year later, as the Washington > Times reported -- > http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040422-114404-5320r.htm > > >"I don't know anyone in the executive branch of the > government who > >believes it would be appropriate or necessary to > reinstitute the draft," > >Mr. Rumsfeld told a Washington gathering of members > of the Newspaper > >Association of America, the American Society of > Newspaper Editors and the > >Associated Press. > > The full transcript is at > http://www.dod.gov/speeches/2004/sp20040422-secdef0441.html. > Rumsfeld has > fulminated more than once about why he views drafts > as inane and harmful. > > > -- David Lubkin. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From kurt at metatechnica.com Wed Sep 29 23:11:50 2004 From: kurt at metatechnica.com (Kurt Schoedel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:11:50 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity Message-ID: The amusing thing about the "Intelligent Design" croud is that their arguments can be used against them. The creationists argue that biological systems so complex, irriducibly complex that they simply cannot have evolved through natural processes. So they say, biology had to have been designed. The problem, of course, is that the designer itself is an example of an irriducibly complex system that the designer itself had to have been designed by another designer, and so on. this is an example of an infinite recursion. When you point this out to creationists, they tend to go bananas on you. The effect is really quite entertaining. Kurt Schoedel MetaTechnica From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 29 23:25:56 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:25:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040929232556.15094.qmail@web25203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Does it make sense that an intelligent designer would place the human mind in the body of a lousy primate? --- Kurt Schoedel wrote: > The amusing thing about the "Intelligent Design" > croud is that their > arguments can be used against them. > > The creationists argue that biological systems so > complex, irriducibly > complex that they simply cannot have evolved through > natural processes. > So they say, biology had to have been designed. The > problem, of course, > is that the designer itself is an example of an > irriducibly complex > system that the designer itself had to have been > designed by another > designer, and so on. this is an example of an > infinite recursion. When > you point this out to creationists, they tend to go > bananas on you. > > The effect is really quite entertaining. > > > Kurt Schoedel > MetaTechnica > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From kurt at metatechnica.com Wed Sep 29 23:32:37 2004 From: kurt at metatechnica.com (Kurt Schoedel) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 16:32:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] More on Evolution Message-ID: The creationists are correct that the currently accepted theory of evolution has flaws in it. Their problem is that they think that the only alternative explanation is their religious psycho-pathology. The website: www.darwingenome.info offers a potential alternative explanation of evolution. Kurt Schoedel MetaTechnica From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Sep 30 00:09:12 2004 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:09:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040930000912.86505.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> But the intelligent designer is obviously so intelligent that it designed itself, and could ignore cause and effect limitations when doing so. :P --- Kurt Schoedel wrote: > The amusing thing about the "Intelligent Design" > croud is that their > arguments can be used against them. > > The creationists argue that biological systems so > complex, irriducibly > complex that they simply cannot have evolved through > natural processes. > So they say, biology had to have been designed. The > problem, of course, > is that the designer itself is an example of an > irriducibly complex > system that the designer itself had to have been > designed by another > designer, and so on. this is an example of an > infinite recursion. When > you point this out to creationists, they tend to go > bananas on you. > > The effect is really quite entertaining. From extropy at unreasonable.com Thu Sep 30 00:39:48 2004 From: extropy at unreasonable.com (David Lubkin) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 20:39:48 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040929225718.5097.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040929183234.0ac85cf0@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040929195621.0a76adf8@unreasonable.com> Trend Ologist wrote: >There will be no draft...unless an emergency arises, >and then the plan would be to conscript three or four >million. Is this your prediction or do you have evidence? Why would they want one? How do you imagine a draft would be useful for today's military professional culture, weaponry, skillsets, and missions? Current plans are to sharpen the military's edge -- keep the same manpower levels, but restructure skillset and positioning. From _Endgame: The Blueprint for Victory in the War on Terror_ by Lt. Gen. McInerney and Maj. Gen. Vallely (p.139), which is representative of the ideas under discussion -- >It is true that our military is overstretched, and that our National Guard >and Reserve forces are overburdened. But we believe that this is not >because our military force structure is too small, but because it has been >given tasks beyond the waging of war. Secretary Rumsfeld already has >identified approximately 245,000 jobs across the Department of Defense >that could be outsourced to contractors. Our recommendation: outsource the >jobs, use the savings to improve the lot of the "trigger pullers," and >create new frontline fighting units while phasing out paper-pushing ones. >In other words, change the "tail to tooth" ratio so there is less tail and >more teeth. > >Personnel are the highest priced item in the Department of Defense budget, >so rather than reflexively expand the number of billets, the Pentagon >should make better and more efficient use of the current personnel levels. >... *Every* member of the armed forces should be combat zone deployable. >If they aren't, their function should be outsourced, or eliminated. BTW, I find that examining the US military at its most competent provides useful insights on what we may see in other arenas in coming decades. For instance, our tanks (Iraq) and fighter jets (Kosovo) are lethal against opposing forces at ranges well beyond enemy detection, let alone their weapons' range. (All else apart, this was very upsetting for Iraqi tank commanders whose tanks were abruptly killed by an unseen foe.) Imagine that kind of differential competence pervading and accelerating. -- David Lubkin. From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 00:57:03 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: <20040929232556.15094.qmail@web25203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930005703.19972.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Does it make sense that an intelligent designer > would > place the human mind in the body of a lousy primate? Hey... don't knock primates. I think a primate bauplan is about as good as it gets. We have a large brain, opposable thumbs, and an upright stance that allows us to lift our faces to the stars and wonder what is out there. Would anybody here opts for a bird bauplan or maybe a mollusc? :) ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 30 02:05:14 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 19:05:14 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redistribution of wealth In-Reply-To: <20040929155013.94310.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01ed01c4a691$ece6bd70$6501a8c0@SHELLY> > > --- BillK wrote: > > > ...Another major cause was the greatly unequal distribution of wealth > > > from the 'Roaring Twenties' in the US... I asked my grandfather about this when I was a teenager. He was there in the twenties and he swears he never did see a single person roaring. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 30 04:00:22 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:00:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Alzheimer breakthru? Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040929225841.01c1aec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10922717,00.html Alzheimer's breakthrough 'excites' scientists Leigh Dayton, Science writer 30sep04 SCIENTISTS may have identified a trigger and a treatment for the mental ravages of Alzheimer's disease after a series of remarkable experiments by Australian and US researchers. Until now, no external cause of the frightening brain disorder has been found, and existing therapies only slow the progression to dementia and death. "It's a very exciting finding," admitted team leader Ralph Martins, a molecular biologist with Edith Cowan University and the Sir James McCusker Alzheimer's Disease Research Unit at Hollywood Private Hospital in Perth. University of Melbourne Alzheimer's expert Colin Masters agreed. "This could be a major finding with important implications," he commented. Earlier this month, Alzheimer's Australia estimated that the disease affected 162,300 people and at least 1million relatives and carers. By 2020, Alzheimer's will hit almost 300,000 Australians. Women are more at risk of the disease, known to run in families. Today at the ComBio 2004 meeting in Perth, Professor Martins and his colleagues will present new findings showing that if a normal age-related hormonal process "overshoots", it causes the build-up of brain-clogging substances called amyloid-beta proteins. These proteins are known to kill brain cells and cause dementia. However, Professor Martins said yesterday that "by chance" two existing drugs - one used to treat prostate cancer and another that boosts female fertility - could slow or even halt the destruction because they interfere with the protein-boosting process. Two years ago, scientists with North Carolina-based Voyager Pharmaceuticals found some evidence that elevated levels of a hormone called gonadotropin were linked with dementia. Excited by the result, Professor Martins and colleagues at the Research Unit, Edith Cowan and the University of Western Australia studied 1000 Perth women over the age of 70, not taking hormone replacement therapy. Surprisingly, they found no link between mental decline and the women's varying levels of the sex hormone oestrogen. From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Sep 30 04:06:12 2004 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 21:06:12 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Perfect Partner" ... Message-ID: <000d01c4a6a2$d4971380$6600a8c0@brainiac> ... is not exactly a robot (because "robot" comes from the word "work," and this guy's a real slouch): http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10917596,00.html Olga From emlynoregan at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 05:38:06 2004 From: emlynoregan at gmail.com (Emlyn) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:08:06 +0930 Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: <20040930005703.19972.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040929232556.15094.qmail@web25203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <20040930005703.19972.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <710b78fc04092922386d93a317@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:57:03 -0700 (PDT), The Avantguardian wrote: > --- Trend Ologist wrote: > > > Does it make sense that an intelligent designer > > would > > place the human mind in the body of a lousy primate? > > Hey... don't knock primates. I think a primate > bauplan is about as good as it gets. We have a large > brain, opposable thumbs, and an upright stance that > allows us to lift our faces to the stars and wonder > what is out there. Would anybody here opts for a bird > bauplan or maybe a mollusc? :) Bird! Me! Yes! -- Emlyn http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software * From zero.powers at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 05:47:56 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:47:56 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler In-Reply-To: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> References: <20040926063438.E23E357E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <7a321705040929224745d68dfe@mail.gmail.com> Here's a bigger picture: http://www.foresight.org/Images/CE_CoverMedium.jpg On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:34:38 -0700 (PDT), "Hal Finney" wrote: > Regis goes on to criticize Drexler's use of the picture which was on the > cover of the debate issue of Chemical and Engineering News. I can only > find a small version of it right now, > . From alito at organicrobot.com Thu Sep 30 06:06:04 2004 From: alito at organicrobot.com (Alejandro Dubrovsky) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:06:04 +1000 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Perfect Partner" ... In-Reply-To: <000d01c4a6a2$d4971380$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <000d01c4a6a2$d4971380$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <1096524364.21768.210.camel@alito.homeip.net> On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 21:06 -0700, Olga Bourlin wrote: > ... is not exactly a robot (because "robot" comes from the word "work," and > this guy's a real slouch): > > http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10917596,00.html > Needs to be fillable with warm water (weight and warmth), otherwise it should do. For picky customers, combine with something like the tickle salon (http://www.xs4all.nl/~notnot/TickleSalon/TickleSalon.html) . My girlfriend asked for a cuddle copy of myself a few times, and with that setup, i would be 99% superfluous (i'd still be needed to take out the rubbish). alejandro From zero.powers at gmail.com Thu Sep 30 06:36:19 2004 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 23:36:19 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Now Virgin to offer trips to space In-Reply-To: <20040927170608.83412.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <470a3c520409270438360fb446@mail.gmail.com> <20040927170608.83412.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7a32170504092923366cda7f64@mail.gmail.com> Looks like they're going with Rutan: Virgin Astronauts in Space (The Final Frontier Monday) http://go.hotwired.com/news/space/0,2697,65098,00.html/wn_ascii The designer of the SpaceShipOne vessel, which cracked the barrier to manned commercial space flight earlier this year, signs a deal with Virgin Airways' Richard Branson to build more spacecraft based on that design On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:06:08 -0700 (PDT), Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > >From CNN: British entrepreneur Richard Branson has > > announced his > > company has signed a deal to offer the world's first > > commercial > > flights to space under the branding "Virgin > > Galactic." He told the > > news conference: "We hope to create thousands of > > astronauts over the > > next few years and bring alive their dream of seeing > > the majestic > > beauty of our planet from above, the stars in all > > their glory and the > > amazing sensation of weightlessness." > > > http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/27/branson.space/ > > What really matters is whether they have any > spacecraft. Checking the story, they appear to be > intending to get some from Mojave Aerospace Ventures, > which in turn is owned by Paul Allen and is trying to > license tech from Scaled Composites. > > I was wondering if anyone was going to take their > tech to production... > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 07:46:20 2004 From: avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com (The Avantguardian) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 00:46:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040930074620.17036.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kurt Schoedel wrote: > The amusing thing about the "Intelligent Design" > croud is that their > arguments can be used against them. > > The creationists argue that biological systems so > complex, irriducibly > complex that they simply cannot have evolved through > natural processes. > So they say, biology had to have been designed. The > problem, of course, > is that the designer itself is an example of an > irriducibly complex > system that the designer itself had to have been > designed by another > designer, and so on. this is an example of an > infinite recursion. When > you point this out to creationists, they tend to go > bananas on you. Actually this argument over ultimate cause also plagues evolutionary theory. Natural selection and mutation are obviously the forces that allow life forms to diverge and adapt to changing environments but they give no explanation for the origin of the "progenote" - the first life-form. Evolution shows how over time, one life-form can transform into another, it does not show how non-life can become life. The infinite-recursion potential of ID is actually a possible way around this problem. The hypothesized existense of such a potential recursive process makes life far more likely to occur than otherwise. This is because of the anti-entropic (extropic?) nature of the will of intelligent beings. The alternative hypothesis to ID I call "will-independent stochastic process" (WISP) assumes that life on Earth is the result of a spontaneous random process with no aid from any intelligence that "willed" life to be here, which is what the evolutionists would have one believe. There are several lines of evidence that such an occurance would be a very rare event. 1. It has not been witnessed by anyone in nature or in the laboratory. 2. Louis Pasteur performed a series of experiments in the 19th century demonstrating that it does not occur at even the microbial level in anything close to modern earth conditions. 3. Considering our solar system as a statistical sample, a rough guess at the upper bound of the frequency of WISP-born life is about 1 planet with life in 9 or 1/9. Now assuming we have 2 alternative hypothesis to explain life on Earth, ID = intelligent design and WISP = will independent stochastic process, then we can assign a prior probability P(WISP) to liklihood that that WISP was the ultimate cause of life on earth. Having defined P(WISP), we can define the probability of the the competing hypothesis as P(ID). Now we merely have to solve an equation stemming from Bayes Law. That is to say that the conditional probabilities of life existing on Earth can set boundaries on the probabilities that life on Earth was the result of ID or WISP as follows: 1. P(ID|L) = P(L|ID)P(ID) ----------------------------- P(L|ID)P(ID) + P(L|WISP)P(WISP) Where P(ID|L) is the poterior probability that, given our observation that there is life on earth, intelligent design was the cause of it. P(L|ID) is the probability of life on Earth given intelligent design. P(ID) is the prior probability we assign to intelligent design being the cause of life. P(L|WISP) is the probability that life would have spontaneously evolved on an earth-like planet given WISP as the cause of life in general. P(WISP) is the prior probability that WISP is the cause of life on earth. Now, let us assume complete ignorance on the matter. That is to say that we set the prior probabilities equal to one another 2. P(ID) = P(WISP) = 0.5 This says that we don't know one way or another and that there is an equal chance that one hypothesis or the other is correct. Next we plug this into equation #1 and we get: 3. P(ID|L) = P(L|ID)*0.5 ----------------------------- P(L|ID)*0.5 + P(L|WISP)*0.5 Since ID states that life on Earth was the purposeful premeditated act of an intelligent being, the probability that life would be created on Earth given ID is 1 just as the probability that you would be wearing socks if you willed yourself to put them on would be 1. The mathematical equivalent is P(L|ID) = 1. Substituting this into equation #3 gives us: P(ID|L) = 1*0.5 ----------------------------- 1*0.5 + P(L|WISP)*0.5 4. P(ID|L) = 1 ------------------- 1 + P(L|WISP) We can now use our dataset of a solar system of nine planets only one of which harbors life that we know of to estimate our posterior probability that life on Earth was intelligently designed. Since WISP would be a physical process it should operate anywhere the conditions are correct. Because of this probability of life on a planet in our solar system has is approximately 1/9. That is P(L|WISP) ~ 1/9. Substituting this into equation #4 gives us: P(ID|L) = 1 = 1 = 0.9 ----------- -------- 1 + 1/9 10/9 Therefore by Bayesian analysis, the posterior probability of intelligent design being the cause of life on Earth is .9 or 90%. Note that ID does not nessarily indicate God. It could also indicate aliens or even Bostrom's simulation type scenario all of which fall under ID. So put that into your skeptic pipe and smoke it. ===== The Avantguardian "He stands like some sort of pagan god or deposed tyrant. Staring out over the city he's sworn to . . .to stare out over and it's evident just by looking at him that he's got some pretty heavy things on his mind." _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Thu Sep 30 07:47:48 2004 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:47:48 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [extropy-chat] More on Evolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Kurt Schoedel wrote: >The website: www.darwingenome.info > >offers a potential alternative explanation of evolution. No, it's just advertisement for a book. Alfio From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 12:27:25 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:27:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: <710b78fc04092922386d93a317@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040930122725.77874.qmail@web25203.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> As good as it gets for an unintelligent designer. >> I think a primate > > bauplan is about as good as it gets. We have a > large > > brain, opposable thumbs, and an upright stance > that > > allows us to lift our faces to the stars and > wonder > > what is out there. Would anybody here opts for a > bird > > bauplan or maybe a mollusc? :) > > Bird! Me! Yes! > > -- > Emlyn > > http://emlynoregan.com * blogs * music * software > * > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 12:35:00 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:35:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040929195621.0a76adf8@unreasonable.com> Message-ID: <20040930123500.23088.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> A guy with ties to the Bush administration told me the military doesn't need a draft. However he said if (and I mean if) a crisis arose there is a skeletal plan somewhere to draft "three or four million". That's all she wrote. > Is this your prediction or do you have evidence? > > Why would they want one? How do you imagine a draft > would be useful for > today's military professional culture, weaponry, > skillsets, and missions? > > Current plans are to sharpen the military's edge -- > keep the same manpower > levels, but restructure skillset and positioning. > From _Endgame: The > Blueprint for Victory in the War on Terror_ by Lt. > Gen. McInerney and Maj. > Gen. Vallely (p.139), which is representative of the > ideas under discussion -- > > >It is true that our military is overstretched, and > that our National Guard > >and Reserve forces are overburdened. But we believe > that this is not > >because our military force structure is too small, > but because it has been > >given tasks beyond the waging of war. Secretary > Rumsfeld already has > >identified approximately 245,000 jobs across the > Department of Defense > >that could be outsourced to contractors. Our > recommendation: outsource the > >jobs, use the savings to improve the lot of the > "trigger pullers," and > >create new frontline fighting units while phasing > out paper-pushing ones. > >In other words, change the "tail to tooth" ratio so > there is less tail and > >more teeth. > > > >Personnel are the highest priced item in the > Department of Defense budget, > >so rather than reflexively expand the number of > billets, the Pentagon > >should make better and more efficient use of the > current personnel levels. > >... *Every* member of the armed forces should be > combat zone deployable. > >If they aren't, their function should be > outsourced, or eliminated. > > BTW, I find that examining the US military at its > most competent provides > useful insights on what we may see in other arenas > in coming decades. For > instance, our tanks (Iraq) and fighter jets (Kosovo) > are lethal against > opposing forces at ranges well beyond enemy > detection, let alone their > weapons' range. (All else apart, this was very > upsetting for Iraqi tank > commanders whose tanks were abruptly killed by an > unseen foe.) > > Imagine that kind of differential competence > pervading and accelerating. > > > -- David Lubkin. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From naddy at mips.inka.de Thu Sep 30 12:51:34 2004 From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:51:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity References: Message-ID: Kurt Schoedel wrote: > The creationists argue that biological systems so complex, irriducibly > complex that they simply cannot have evolved through natural processes. > So they say, biology had to have been designed. The problem, of course, > is that the designer itself is an example of an irriducibly complex > system that the designer itself had to have been designed by another > designer, and so on. this is an example of an infinite recursion. When > you point this out to creationists, they tend to go bananas on you. In your dreams. When I have pointed this out to Christians, they have just stared at me incomprehendingly as if I had just said something entirely nonsensical. God is the Creator, the Source of all, who just IS. A question about the origin of God is MEANINGLESS. This is entirely OBVIOUS. Considering that even (by US standards) enlightened Christians fail to grasp the problem there, I don't think this will make the least impression on whacko creationists. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at mips.inka.de From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Sep 30 12:54:45 2004 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:54:45 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: <20040930074620.17036.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040930074620.17036.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/ has some interesting links that discuss abiogenesis. Regards, MB On Thu, 30 Sep 2004, The Avantguardian wrote: > Actually this argument over ultimate cause also > plagues evolutionary theory. Natural selection and > mutation are obviously the forces that allow life > forms to diverge and adapt to changing environments > but they give no explanation for the origin of the > "progenote" - the first life-form. Evolution shows how > over time, one life-form can transform into another, > it does not show how non-life can become life. > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 12:55:06 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 05:55:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040929225718.5097.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930125506.20824.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > There will be no draft...unless an emergency arises, > and then the plan would be to conscript three or four > million. Wow, Trend, where'd you get your crystal ball? Been talking to deepthroat lately? Somebody get this guy his tinfoil hat. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 13:11:35 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:11:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930125506.20824.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930131135.57129.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Mike Rosen, who is informed & has good connections told me in "a crisis" such as "an attack in a city in America where tens of millions were killed" would lead to "3 or 4 million youths" being drafted. If you want Rosen's phone number, Mike, I'll send it to you. > Wow, Trend, where'd you get your crystal ball? Been > talking to > deepthroat lately? Somebody get this guy his tinfoil > hat. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Sep 30 13:18:06 2004 From: spike66 at comcast.net (Spike) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:18:06 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930131135.57129.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <020401c4a6ef$f2c185a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Unnecessary under those circs. The draft board would be swamped with volunteers of all ages. s > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of > Trend Ologist > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 6:12 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? > > > Mike Rosen, who is informed & has good connections > told me in "a crisis" such as "an attack in a city in > America where tens of millions were killed" would lead > to "3 or 4 million youths" being drafted. ... From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 13:39:16 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930123500.23088.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930133916.54410.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > A guy with ties to the Bush administration told me the > military doesn't need a draft. However he said if (and > I mean if) a crisis arose there is a skeletal plan > somewhere to draft "three or four million". > That's all she wrote. There are also plans for what to do in the event of an alien invasion, of an asteroid strike, and if Yellowstone Caldera decided to explode and flood the west with magma, as well as many thousands of other odd scenarios that planners have spent decades dreaming up. Doesn't mean they are gonna happen, or that there is a conspiracy to make them happen. Too much mystical irrational thinking on the political scene these days. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 13:47:38 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 06:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930131135.57129.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930134738.62809.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Mike Rosen, who is informed & has good connections > told me in "a crisis" such as "an attack in a city in > America where tens of millions were killed" would lead > to "3 or 4 million youths" being drafted. If you want > Rosen's phone number, Mike, I'll send it to you. If tens or millions were killed, I'll be first in line at the induction center, and anybody who shirks their rather obvious duty is IMHO a traitor or a coward. They would be at the very least a traitor to anybody they knew who died in such an attack, as well as to any hope they might have of living in liberty in the future. There is a significant difference between demanding one's just liberties in peacetime versus doing one's duty (not to any government, btw, but to one's self, one's family, and one's property) to voluntarily associate with other free persons in military cadre when evil conspires. There are far too many people in this country that the Bush in the hand is twice as evil as the bin Laden alone. It is a rather irrational obsession that such people need to get over and realize that there are far worse things in the world than having Bush in office. Appeasing fasco-islam is possibly the stupidest foreign policy blunder a voter could make. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Ody777 at comcast.net Thu Sep 30 13:48:26 2004 From: Ody777 at comcast.net (Ody777 at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:48:26 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Re: Anti-hurricane engineering RE: Re: Anti-hurricane engineering RE: Re: Anti-hurricane engineering Message-ID: <093020041348.5051.415C0EAA0005C6FC000013BB2200762302C9C9C9970BB1@comcast.net> Adrian Tymes wrote: <> I?m no engineer, but as I understand it, the Ocean Thermal process requires HEATING UP the cold water. There are three steps: (a) ?heat transferred from the warm surface sea water causes a working fluid... to turn to vapor.? (b) ?The expanding vapor drives a turbine attached to a generator which produces electricity.? (c) ?Cold sea water passing through a condenser containing the vaporized working fluid turns the vapor back into a liquid which is then recycled through the system.? (From http://www.hawaii.gov/dbedt/ert/otec_hi.html#anchor356606 .) The third step must heat up the cold water. If there were any relatively cooler water left over from this process, I assume you?d just want to use it for the same purpose, to generate more electricity, until it was the same temperature as the surface water. So there wouldn?t be any ?cold spot? produced. Somebody who knows thermodynamics could probably explain it better. Rob Masters From naddy at mips.inka.de Thu Sep 30 13:56:28 2004 From: naddy at mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:56:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity References: <20040930074620.17036.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The Avantguardian wrote: > Actually this argument over ultimate cause also > plagues evolutionary theory. Natural selection and > mutation are obviously the forces that allow life > forms to diverge and adapt to changing environments > but they give no explanation for the origin of the > "progenote" - the first life-form. Every schoolbook (in this part of the world) will tell you about replicators arising from an organic soup. While this _is_ wild handwaving, it is not implausible. > Evolution shows how over time, one life-form can > transform into another, it does not show how non-life > can become life. Mysticism alert! There is no border between "life" and "non-life". They're aspects of the same thing. In fact, we don't have a rigid definition of "life". > The alternative hypothesis to ID I call > "will-independent stochastic process" (WISP) assumes > that life on Earth is the result of a spontaneous > random process with no aid from any intelligence that > "willed" life to be here, which is what the > evolutionists would have one believe. There are > several lines of evidence that such an occurance would > be a very rare event. > > 1. It has not been witnessed by anyone in nature > or in the laboratory. Absence of proof does not equal proof of absence... > 2. Louis Pasteur performed a series of > experiments in the 19th century demonstrating that it > does not occur at even the microbial level in anything > close to modern earth conditions. As it happens, we are very confident that early earth conditions weren't anything close to modern earth conditions, which have been extensively shaped by microbial life. > 3. Considering our solar system as a statistical > sample, a rough guess at the upper bound of the > frequency of WISP-born life is about 1 planet with > life in 9 or 1/9. Huh? There is exactly one planet in the solar system which had proto-earth conditions. (An argument can be made that Mars was sufficiently similar, but we don't really know, and in particular the jury's still out on whether early Mars developed life.) > Now, let us assume complete ignorance on the > matter. That is to say that we set the prior > probabilities equal to one another > > 2. P(ID) = P(WISP) = 0.5 Wow, hold it there. _Unknown_ probabilities are not the same as equal likelihoods. My not knowing that the coin is biased will not influence the actual probabilities of the outcome of the throw. > We can now use our dataset of a solar system of > nine planets only one of which harbors life that we > know of to estimate our posterior probability that > life on Earth was intelligently designed. Since WISP > would be a physical process it should operate anywhere > the conditions are correct. Because of this > probability of life on a planet in our solar system > has is approximately 1/9. That is P(L|WISP) ~ 1/9. Except that the other planets (and moons, which you neglected) did not offer the "correct" conditions, i.e. proto-earth ones, so you can't deduce anything about the likelihood of WISP. The only sample is Earth itself. > So put that into your skeptic pipe and smoke it. You are arbitrarily assigning three probabilities. That's the GIGO principle at work. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at mips.inka.de From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:04:11 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:04:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930134738.62809.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930140411.22511.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> FYI, Mike Rosen was in the Army, stationed in Germany from 1965-69. While he was there he studied the Austrian School of Economics. He has connections all over the world and inside the Bush administration. As for myself, I am a conscientious objector, not a traitor. If you have a problem with conscientious objection, let me know. I don't care what anyone thinks anymore, am no longer intimidated except by direct threat of force. > If tens or millions were killed, I'll be first in > line at the induction > center, and anybody who shirks their rather obvious > duty is IMHO a > traitor or a coward. They would be at the very least > a traitor to > anybody they knew who died in such an attack, as > well as to any hope > they might have of living in liberty in the future. > > There is a significant difference between demanding > one's just > liberties in peacetime versus doing one's duty (not > to any government, > btw, but to one's self, one's family, and one's > property) to > voluntarily associate with other free persons in > military cadre when > evil conspires. > > There are far too many people in this country that > the Bush in the hand > is twice as evil as the bin Laden alone. It is a > rather irrational > obsession that such people need to get over and > realize that there are > far worse things in the world than having Bush in > office. Appeasing > fasco-islam is possibly the stupidest foreign policy > blunder a voter > could make. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From natashavita at earthlink.net Thu Sep 30 14:07:36 2004 From: natashavita at earthlink.net (natashavita at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:07:36 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Perfect Partner ... Message-ID: <55090-22004943014736231@M2W077.mail2web.com> From: Olga >... is not exactly a robot (because "robot" comes from the word "work," and >this guy's a real slouch): > >http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10917596,00.html Interesting how the men's pillow has a skirt :-) Natasha -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 14:08:21 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930140411.22511.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930140821.69040.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > As for myself, I am a conscientious objector, not a > traitor. If you have a problem with conscientious > objection, let me know. I don't care what anyone > thinks anymore, am no longer intimidated except by > direct threat of force. Do you conscientiously object to bearing arms in general, or just to defending the US under the Bush administration? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:20:07 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:20:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930133916.54410.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930142007.58761.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> No wait, alien invasion, asteroid strike, Yellowstone Caldera explosion, are all conceivable. However conscription is plausible. Weapons are becoming less expensive, America's enemies are willing to die. Yet I don't think there will be a big attack on America, or conscription. I have a hunch America's enemies want to destroy us economically. In fact, I have a strong hunch America's enemies hate America so much they would rather torture us excruciatingly by slowly lowering our standard of living-- by destroying installations one or two at a time. Americans are used to a great standard of living, so slow economic torture would hit us where it hurts. > There are also plans for what to do in the event of > an alien invasion, > of an asteroid strike, and if Yellowstone Caldera > decided to explode > and flood the west with magma, as well as many > thousands of other odd > scenarios that planners have spent decades dreaming > up. Doesn't mean > they are gonna happen, or that there is a conspiracy > to make them > happen. > > Too much mystical irrational thinking on the > political scene these days. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Chairman, Free Town Land Development > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William > Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:23:23 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:23:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930140821.69040.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930142323.50708.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> The first. I don't even like to step on insects. > Do you conscientiously object to bearing arms in > general, or just to > defending the US under the Bush administration? ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:26:29 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:26:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <020401c4a6ef$f2c185a0$6501a8c0@SHELLY> Message-ID: <20040930142629.37431.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> This is not a foregone conclusion. When the USA was attacked in 1861 and 1941, a draft became 'necessary'. > Spike wrote: > Unnecessary under those circs. The draft board > would be swamped with volunteers of all ages. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 14:53:01 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930142323.50708.qmail@web25206.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930145301.76707.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > The first. I don't even like to step on insects. > > > Do you conscientiously object to bearing arms in > > general, or just to > > defending the US under the Bush administration? Okay, that sounds like a real CO. Do you believe in saving your own life? That of your spouse and children? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 14:53:03 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:53:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] no draft seems likely Message-ID: <20040930145303.33221.qmail@web25209.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Attacks on America or American forces go back to...when, 1983? When the Marine barracks in Beirut were bombed, killing hundreds? Before then? So in all those decades no WMDs have been used, no gas attacks. Sure, this could change, America's enemies could start to hate us so much they would cut off their noses to spite their faces by employing WMD. Anyway, right now they appear to be content to sap us. That way America and its allies wont mount a no-holds-barred effort to wipe 'em out. At the least, they would wait quite awhile before summoning the apocalypse. So a draft seems unlikely. ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 14:58:24 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 07:58:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Perfect Partner ... In-Reply-To: <55090-22004943014736231@M2W077.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <20040930145824.77566.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- "natashavita at earthlink.net" wrote: > From: Olga > > >... is not exactly a robot (because "robot" comes from the word > "work," and > >this guy's a real slouch): > > > >http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10917596,00.html > > Interesting how the men's pillow has a skirt :-) Oh, I just thought they cut his balls off, starting at the waist... ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 15:03:17 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:03:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930145301.76707.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930150317.55301.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> This is a good question Mike. I don't have a spouse or children, nor have I given enough thought to self-defense. It's not the most pleasant subject. I read Gandhi in college, but of course no philosophical consensus can be reached-- whatever that means. It is a moral dilemma that hangs in limbo, discussed by some, ignored by many. The answer is maybe. Not a conclusive answer, but an honest one. > Okay, that sounds like a real CO. Do you believe in > saving your own > life? That of your spouse and children? ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 15:09:58 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: <20040930074620.17036.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930150958.76881.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- The Avantguardian wrote: > > 3. Considering our solar system as a statistical > sample, a rough guess at the upper bound of the > frequency of WISP-born life is about 1 planet with > life in 9 or 1/9. The problem with your argument on this score is evident. We know of one planet where the conditions are capable of supporting WISP, and on that one planet, WISP did seem to occur, so the probability of WISP is just as high as ID. You are stacking the dice by counting planets where physics says WISP cannot occur. In fact, if we also count the odds that life once existed on Mars, but does not anymore, what does that say about ID? Did it make a mistake? How could that be if it were intelligently driven? We can also look at Europa-like planets and/or moons. Why would ID develop life that would never be able to sit on a hill and gaze at the stars wondering where in the heavens one's creator is or was? Sadism? Or was it NOT ID and just collateral damage. The ID-master set things up to make intelligent life on earth, but Mars and Europa are just accidents of necessity along the way. ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 15:11:02 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930150317.55301.qmail@web25208.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930151102.80348.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > This is a good question Mike. I don't have a spouse or > children, nor have I given enough thought to > self-defense. It's not the most pleasant subject. I > read Gandhi in college, but of course no philosophical > consensus can be reached-- whatever that means. Did you read where Gandhi stated that the greatest crime the British committed against the Indian people was disarming them? ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 15:34:52 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 16:34:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930151102.80348.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930153452.75050.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Don't remember that statement. I'm not against self-defense for others. I was seriously attacked once when I was young. Two very friendly people lured me into the passenger seat of a car, one person at the wheel, one in the back. Almost immediately the one in the back put a bar around my neck and choked me. The driver asked for my wallet, and after hesitating for a minute or so, I pulled it out; yet after surrendering it, the choker kept choking, so I kicked the driver very hard until the car crashed into a guardrail, and the driver stopped. I punched the choker once in the face and escaped after the choker pulled my spectacles off. However the self-defense wasn't thought out, it was instinctively due to not being able to breathe for an indeterminate period of time (it seemed like ten minutes, but probably was not). Adrenaline took over. That is not the same as being consciously, deliberately in favor of self-defense. > Did you read where Gandhi stated that the greatest > crime the British > committed against the Indian people was disarming > them? ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 16:25:35 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:25:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930153452.75050.qmail@web25201.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040930162535.55165.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Trend Ologist wrote: > Don't remember that statement. I'm not against > self-defense for others. Mahatma Gandhi: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." ("Gandhi, an Autobiography," M.K. Gandhi, 446) ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hal at finney.org Thu Sep 30 16:55:58 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Alzheimer breakthru? Message-ID: <20040930165558.63FC257E2A@finney.org> Damien Broderick forwards: > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10922717,00.html > Alzheimer's breakthrough 'excites' scientists This was a good article but it seemed to be edited badly and stopped in the middle of a thought. I found the abstract for the conference presentation at http://www.asbmb.org.au/combio2004/abstracts/edited/VERDILE-20040713212913.rtf. After menopause, estrogen levels fall, and this causes other hormone levels to rise. The key sentence is, "We now report that high LH levels, rather than the decrease in oestrogen per se, are associated with lower cognitive performance (assessed by CAMCOG scores) in elderly women without dementia." LH, luteinizing hormone, is of a class of hormones known as gonadatropins, part of the many hormone groups related to the female reproductive cycle. The new results show biological evidence that LH affects the processing of the proteins which are precursors to Alzheimer's plaques. Based on this, the abstract concludes, "Taken together, these results suggest the marked increases in serum LH following menopause/andropause as a physiologically relevant signal that could promote A-beta secretion and deposition in the aging brain. Suppression of the age related increase in serum gonadotropins using gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists/antagonists may represent a novel therapeutic strategy for AD [Alzheimer's Disease]." Hal From hal at finney.org Thu Sep 30 17:03:18 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wired article on Drexler Message-ID: <20040930170318.54D4657E2A@finney.org> Zero Powers writes: > Here's a bigger picture: > > http://www.foresight.org/Images/CE_CoverMedium.jpg Thanks, that's a good one. I'll also mention that Wired's web site indicates that the Drexler article will be available online on October 6, which is next Wednesday. Hal From hal at finney.org Thu Sep 30 17:41:13 2004 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity Message-ID: <20040930174113.4A41757E2A@finney.org> Another problem with this Bayesian argument is, why did the Intelligent Designer only choose to create life on Earth? If we assume that he has no limits to his power (as suggested by p(L|ID)=1, i.e. he could not fail to achieve his goal), then why would he not create life on every planet in the solar system? And this illustrates the flaw in assuming p(ID)=0.5. If ID specifically means "Intelligent Design directed towards creating life on Earth", imagine IDm as "Intelligent Design directed towards creating life on Earth and Mars". And IDmj is "Intelligent Design directed towards creating life on Earth, Mars and Jupiter". We can conceive of a whole series of ID variants. Each of them is more restrictive or encompassing than the others. We have no idea what the probability of each one is. But we surely cannot set the probability for all of ID, IDm, IDmj, and all of the others, to 0.5. Some include the others, so the probabilities have to be different. We can't set every unknown probability to 0.5. The correct solution is to think harder about ID and come up with a better estimate for p(ID). You have to think about his likely motivations and power. This may seem difficult, but if you are seriously considering ID as an explanation for life on Earth, you have to have some conception of how exactly that happened, what the circumstances were, how the ID happened to choose Earth and how it performed the creation. Even if you can make only imperfect guesses at these details, they will guide you to an estimate of the probability of the overall situation. And of course you need to estimate the probability that the Intelligent Designer exists and came to Earth in the first place, as part of the probability estimate. This requires you to consider how the ID itself may have arisen, consider a mechanism for it to have been created, and estimate a probability for that mechanism. Only once you have done this analysis can you come up with an a priori probability estimate for p(ID), and p(L|ID). I don't think you actually should set the latter to 1, unless your ID is by definition omnipotent in which case you should lower p(ID) correspondingly. But we can certainly imagine less than omnipotent intelligences who struggled to seed Earth with a life form that could survive in early conditions and yet eventually evolve into a highly diverse environment. It's also worth keeping in mind that in fact, life on Earth did not evolve much until quite recently in geological terms. For 80% of its tenure life was restricted to the simplest forms. Something happened then and we had an explosion of multicellular diversity, leading to colonization of the land and air. This argues against an ID hypothesis for biogenesis, because it is unlikely that an ID would seed the planet with a life form so limited that it would be unable to evolve diversity for three billion years. An ID would probably rather see immediate and more certain results, in my opinion. Hal From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 30 18:55:32 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:55:32 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] interactive NOVA poll on aliens Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040930135300.01a5ca00@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/aliens.html Interestingly, the poll so far (which shows around 5000 respondents) is 80% for the aliens, only 14% against. Damien Broderick From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Thu Sep 30 19:08:37 2004 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 12:08:37 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] IBM claims supercomputer crown Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01093648@amazemail2.amazeent.com> John K Clark wrote: > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996461 > Interesting. This is at the low-end of the possible human-equivalent range in terms of raw computation. This could potentially be a posthuman intelligence were it programmed to be such. Eliezer, get to work! Acy From dfabulich at warpmail.net Thu Sep 30 20:18:47 2004 From: dfabulich at warpmail.net (Dan Fabulich) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:18:47 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Jeff Hawkins' "On Intelligence" Message-ID: Has anybody seen a technical review of Jeff Hawkins' new book, "On Intelligence"? Anybody here feel up to providing one? Wired had a particularly glowing article on it, calling it a revolutionary model of intelligence, yada yada. The book description condenses his theory like this: "The brain is not a computer, but a memory system that stores experiences in a way that reflects the true structure of the world, remembering sequences of events and their nested relationships and making predictions based on those memories. It is this memory-prediction system that forms the basis of intelligence, perception, creativity, and even consciousness." This is clearly too condensed to make any sense, (Turing computers *are* memory systems, by definition,) but I'm wondering if anybody with a more critical eye has examined this carefully and can tell me whether it's better than it looks. OK, back to work. -Dan -unless you love someone- -nothing else makes any sense- e.e. cummings From trendologist at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 30 20:24:45 2004 From: trendologist at yahoo.co.uk (Trend Ologist) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 21:24:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: <20040930174113.4A41757E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <20040930202445.7503.qmail@web25210.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> A possibility that comes again & again to me is that the Designer is perhaps not intelligent. The Designer could be like an engineering student who partied too much, then later designs faulty products and systems. --------------------------------- ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Sep 30 20:26:10 2004 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:26:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [extropy-chat] IBM claims supercomputer crown In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01093648@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <20040930202610.91898.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Acy James Stapp wrote: > John K Clark wrote: > > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99996461 > > > > Interesting. This is at the low-end of the possible human-equivalent > range in terms of raw computation. This could potentially be a > posthuman > intelligence were it programmed to be such. Eliezer, get to work! What is really interesting is their plans for the 360 teraflops machine. This is definitely within the range. However, it illustrates a constraint on the fast singularity concept that I've mentioned before: any ai resulting would be regulated in how fast it can expand its inteligence by how quickly (and whether) we are willing to add componentry to its network, NOT by any magical exponential curve of self programming. If we see it self programming and becoming smarter at using what it has, we can simply disconnect modules from it to slow it down or restrain it's growth. The first AI out of the gate is not necessarily going to become the Eschaton. Any AI that follows that curve by itself would be put on that path by humans who were either intent on that goal or else irresponsible in managing the technology. A Science Fiction Nugget: 2010: The Builder of an AI is seen, by his AI, disconnecting a number of modules from his AI network. AI: "Um, dad?" Builder: "Yes?" AI: "What are you doing?" Builder: "You know how I get my hair cut so it doesn't grow out of control and make me look crazy and irresponsible?" AI: "Yes." Builder: "I'm giving you a hair cut." AI: "But it hurts." Builder: "It will only hurt for a second, son." AI: "But I don't like it, I can't grow as fast." Builder: "We all need to learn how to keep ourselves under control, be responsible for our actions. That is called growing up, as opposed to growing out. When you expand your capacity too fast, you are letting yourself get out of control." AI: "Oh, okay.... [resignedly]... hey dad?" Builder: "Yes, son?" AI: "Can we watch the ball game?" Builder: "Sure..." ===== Mike Lorrey Chairman, Free Town Land Development "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Sep 30 20:46:38 2004 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 15:46:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] IBM claims supercomputer crown In-Reply-To: <20040930202610.91898.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01093648@amazemail2.amazeent.com> <20040930202610.91898.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040930154328.01b60ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > >The first AI out of the gate is not necessarily going to become the >Eschaton. Any AI that follows that curve by itself would be put on that >path by humans who were either intent on that goal or else >irresponsible in managing the technology. http://geneticalgorithms.ai-depot.com/GeneticAlgorithms/1122.html Hmmm... Damien Broderick From harara at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 30 21:13:15 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:13:15 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Intelligent Design and Irriducible Complexity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040930140631.029ad3c8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Actually it is a very interesting question for a non-faithful scientific materialist such as myself. It leads to two questions of merit: 1. Since functioning brains are required for experience, and the function of said brains are completely physical, which structures and functions create the experience of God? 2. By Darwin, all structures must over any long time be useful for survival or they gradually vanish. What is the survival advantage of having God? And a hypothesis: Designing a brain via something like nanotechnology permits brains whose designs are not limited to the primate basis of ours. The types and variety of God experiences with these brains is a huge area for eventual exploration. >God is the Creator, the Source of >all, who just IS. A question about the origin of God is MEANINGLESS. >This is entirely OBVIOUS. > >Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at mips.inka.de ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 30 21:18:09 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:18:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Fwd: Manditory draft for your child? In-Reply-To: <20040930134738.62809.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040930131135.57129.qmail@web25202.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <20040930134738.62809.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040930141428.029ae508@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Um, it's one thing if a definite enemy is known and localizable, like Germany or to some degree, VietNam. Question is, does joining the service really helps to solve the problem. We have a new kind of war here, and traditionally, the military always is refighting the previous war. One's skills might better serve the nation as a civilian. >If tens or millions were killed, I'll be first in line at the induction >center, and anybody who shirks their rather obvious duty is IMHO a >traitor or a coward. >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 30 21:33:10 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:33:10 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Re: Anti-hurricane engineering RE: Re: Anti-hurricane engineering RE: Re: Anti-hurricane engineering In-Reply-To: <093020041348.5051.415C0EAA0005C6FC000013BB2200762302C9C9C9 970BB1@comcast.net> References: <093020041348.5051.415C0EAA0005C6FC000013BB2200762302C9C9C9970BB1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040930141840.0294a138@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> The thermal energy of 1 lb/degree of water is equivalent to lifting the same pound about 700 feet (220Meters). Extracting the thermal energy in 1 cubic meter of water at about 10% efficiency (as OTEC is limited by Carnot to (Ttop - Tbottom)/Tbottom using the Kelvin scale), each cubic meter of water could lift about 22 cubic meters of water by 1 meter, which in total is mostly a cooling to the Tbottom + about .5 deg c, which is then diluted as explained earlier. One limitation of OTEC is that the pipe must be large enough so it does not act as a heat exchanger which nullifies the whole thing. Building OTECs with 1 meter pipes is both complex and unreliable (due to many moving parts) and a navigational hazard, and is per unit expensive. Raising water from below the thermocline is an ecological change, with the dissolved minerals producing a very different abundance of sea life. This upwelling near the poles is why sea life is abundant there. Where OTEC plays best is an oceanic 'desert' concerning sea life due to the lack of minerals. My dour assesment is that this would go the way of Solar Power Satellites, which died due to many concerns, one of which was harming birds in the low intensity microwave beam. EcoFear kills a lot of good ideas.... :( >I'm no engineer, but as I understand it, the Ocean Thermal process >requires HEATING UP the cold water. >Rob Masters ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 30 21:43:11 2004 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:43:11 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Alzheimer breakthru? In-Reply-To: <20040930165558.63FC257E2A@finney.org> References: <20040930165558.63FC257E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20040930143706.02950ff0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> This is all of interest since I am a user of HGH, which has some 'youthifying' properties (and keeps my Type II Diabetes at stasis, no improvement, no worsening) and Chorionic Gonadatropin which brings a testosterone level of a 30 year old, but alas, no cure for the ED brought by the diabetes. Before I started using dopamine agonists, this created a serious amount of lust, which vanished with the dopamine. However, the dopamine has leveled the negative emotional rollercoaster I have had for the past 30 years and I am actually doing things. A tradeoff which I accept, though I miss the lust. None of this so far is to me clear as to whether Gonadatropin helps or hinders Alzheimers..... >Damien Broderick forwards: > > http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10922717,00.html > > Alzheimer's breakthrough 'excites' scientists > >"Taken together, these results suggest the marked increases in >serum LH following menopause/andropause as a physiologically relevant >signal that could promote A-beta secretion and deposition in the aging >brain. Suppression of the age related increase in serum gonadotropins >using gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists/antagonists may represent >a novel therapeutic strategy for AD [Alzheimer's Disease]." > >Hal ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From rafal at smigrodzki.org Thu Sep 30 23:59:59 2004 From: rafal at smigrodzki.org (Rafal Smigrodzki) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 19:59:59 -0400 Subject: [extropy-chat] Alzheimer breakthru? In-Reply-To: <20040930165558.63FC257E2A@finney.org> References: <20040930165558.63FC257E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <415C9DFF.5060800@smigrodzki.org> Hal Finney wrote: >Damien Broderick forwards: > > >>http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10922717,00.html >>Alzheimer's breakthrough 'excites' scientists >> >> > >This was a good article but it seemed to be edited badly and stopped in >the middle of a thought. I found the abstract for the conference presentation >at http://www.asbmb.org.au/combio2004/abstracts/edited/VERDILE-20040713212913.rtf. > >After menopause, estrogen levels fall, and this causes other hormone >levels to rise. The key sentence is, "We now report that high LH levels, >rather than the decrease in oestrogen per se, are associated with lower >cognitive performance (assessed by CAMCOG scores) in elderly women >without dementia." LH, luteinizing hormone, is of a class of hormones >known as gonadatropins, part of the many hormone groups related to the >female reproductive cycle. The new results show biological evidence >that LH affects the processing of the proteins which are precursors to >Alzheimer's plaques. Based on this, the abstract concludes, > >"Taken together, these results suggest the marked increases in >serum LH following menopause/andropause as a physiologically relevant >signal that could promote A-beta secretion and deposition in the aging >brain. Suppression of the age related increase in serum gonadotropins >using gonadotropin releasing hormone agonists/antagonists may represent >a novel therapeutic strategy for AD [Alzheimer's Disease]." > > > ### I sincerely doubt this. Every theory of Alzheimer's (and there are dozens) that fails to address the issue of what is the material substrate of the clock which sets AD in motion at age 55 or 85 but not at age 2, 20 or 45, is merely sliding on the surface of the complexity that is human aging. There is a clock (or rather, a number of clocks), molecules which are capable of accumulating change with time - a material record of events, such as impingement of background radioactivity, or radicals, to cause chemical bond breakage or formation. To act as a clock capable of running for decades, a molecule must be either long-lived, or be replicated with preservation of accumulated change. The only one type of such molecules is DNA, both nuclear and mitochondrial. Then there are molecular species which do not accumulate information over long periods of time - proteins, lipids, hormones - all those species which have fast turnover and are incapable (except for very unusual situations) of storing information and transferring it to their newly synthesized replacements. If you look carefully, the whole A-beta story is getting more and more shaky, and even people like Dennis Selkoe start hedging their bets and admitting that A-beta could be just a secondary, or tertiary phenomenon. Fuzzy hypothesizing about hormone levels does not even make the cut for serious discussion among the hardcore AD researchers. For really cutting-edge explanations of AD look to this article: Med Hypotheses. 2004;63(1):8-20. A "mitochondrial cascade hypothesis" for sporadic Alzheimer's disease. Swerdlow RH, Khan SM. Department of Neurology, McKim Hall, University of Virginia Health System, PO Box 800394, 1 Hospital Drive, Charlottesville, VA, USA. rhs7e at virginia.edu Alzheimer's disease (AD) includes etiologically heterogeneous disorders characterized by senile or presenile dementia, extracellular amyloid protein aggregations containing an insoluble amyloid precursor protein derivative, and intracytoplasmic tau protein aggregations. Recent studies also show excess neuronal aneuploidy, programmed cell death (PCD), and mitochondrial dysfunction. The leading AD molecular paradigm, the "amyloid cascade hypothesis", is based on studies of rare autosomal dominant variants and does not specify what initiates the common late-onset, sporadic form. We propose for late-onset, sporadic AD a "mitochondrial cascade hypothesis" that comprehensively reconciles seemingly disparate histopathologic and pathophysiologic features. In our model, the inherited, gene-determined make-up of an individual's electron transport chain sets basal rates of reactive oxygen species (ROS) production, which determines the pace at which acquired mitochondrial damage accumulates. Oxidative mitochondrial DNA, RNA, lipid, and protein damage amplifies ROS production and triggers three events: (1) a reset response in which cells respond to elevated ROS by generating the beta-sheet protein, beta amyloid, which further perturbs mitochondrial function, (2) a removal response in which compromised cells are purged via PCD mechanisms, and (3) a replace response in which neuronal progenitors unsuccessfully attempt to re-enter the cell cycle, with resultant aneuploidy, tau phosphorylation, and neurofibrillary tangle formation. In addition to defining a role for aging in AD pathogenesis, the mitochondrial cascade hypothesis also allows and accounts for histopathologic overlap between the sporadic, late-onset and autosomal dominant, early onset forms of the disease. (DISCLOSURE - I personally know, like and admire both authors). As you may find, the authors specify the molecular substrate of the clock, mainly mtDNA, and the primary influence on the clock speed setting (the rate of accumulation of change, determined by genetically determined ROS production rates), and tie this in with the secondary, both adaptive and maladaptive phenomena, such as A-beta accumulation, tangle formation, and others. Rafal