[extropy-chat] can't war protesters do better?

Mon Aug 8 15:32:51 UTC 2005

It's such a shame that you have such a limited view of people. You have this
nasty problem with grouping people rather than looking at them as
individuals. I voted for Bush twice and I am hardly the idiot that you are
speaking of. I am a thinking individual. I am not a neo-con and I certainly
don't support his religious views. I am an atheist and I disagree with many
parts of the Bush agenda.
If you are the thinking person that you claim to be, you will realize soon
that the left is just as guilty as the right when it comes to polarizing
voters in an attempt to win elections. The democratic party is just as
guilty of lying to move their agenda forward as the right. Each has their
agenda which they "think" is right and to them, the ends justify the means.
It is nothing more than simple politics. Your attempt  to make one side
appear more righteous that the other is foolish.
So why does an atheist transhumanist vote in support of an administration
with a religious ideology? It's simple. I weighed in the things that were
important to me for the next four years and the only other viable option was
worse.
I know this is a waste of my time, but I will at least try to explain. I
could predict what Bush was going to do in Iraq. Kerry though, probably
couldn;t even predict what Kerry was going to do in Iraq. I certainly don;t
think just withdrawing to gain political support at home was the answer to
the problems in the MidEast. I knew exactly where Bush stands on stem-cell
research and I know that his failure to fund research into several lines for
4-8 years doesn't create a major impact on advancement because other
countries perform similar research and because private funds are still
available for this. I often wonder just how much the federal government has
a right to invest taxpayer funds into research anyways which is a completely
different argument for another day.
Meanwhile, I happen to know by the voting record that Kerry had voted
several times against silly laws that infringe upon the 2nd amendment. You
may not like guns, but I can tell you that millions of guns in the hands of
the citizens of Iraq and a willingness to use them would have prevented
Saddam from getting to power in the first place. Anyone who thinks that this
kind of thing is impossible in the US has a short-sighted view of history.
When it comes down to it, I weighed all of the things that I think are
important and decided that Kerry was a worse candidate for the liar's job
that the incumbent. It isn;t about right vs left or dems vs repubs. There's
a lot more at work than that. Different people vote for different candidates
for different reasons.
And I am not a Bush supporter by the way. I could care less who the
president is or what party he is affiliated with. The issues are much
greater than any one person. I will be glad to debate you on any issue, but
a debate on who is a better president is lunacy. A reasonable debate can
only be obtained if we could first agree on each objective, every issue and
it's importance. Then we could argue about how effectively this president
carried out those objectives and handled each issue. Otherwise you are
wasting your time comparing apples to oranges.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Lee" <brian_a_lee at hotmail.com>
To: <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] can't war protesters do better?

> I'm not trying to play nice liberal or anything like it. I'm just saying
> that the way to convince people isn't by calling them idiots or dumbfucks.
>
> The "Bush cheated" meme is pretty lame too. Bush won for various reasons,
> but cheating isn't one of them.
>
> I think there's an artifically created ideology gap between the left and
the
> right. Repubs have been polarizing voters on stuff like gay marriage while
> most lefties and righties agree ideologically.
>
> Don't mind Rush et al, they only preach to the converted (and strange
people
> who hate them but listen anyway).
>
> BAL
>
> >From: Robbie Lindauer <robgobblin at aol.com>
> >To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] can't war protesters do better?
> >Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 00:03:53 -1000
> >
> >1)  I didn't call 51% of the US idiots, just the ones that voted for Bush
> >the second time (well, okay, the first time too).  That was far less than
> >51% of Americans, even voting-age americans.  Morelike 22%.  I stand by
my
> >statement that those who did are dumbf*cks.
> >2)  I thought it was funny, sorry you didn't.
> >3)  I do understand the right and why they win elections - they cheat.
> >4)  No people "represent constituents" for me, but rather are just
thinking
> >individuals who decide for themselves what to do.  If someone in Texas is
> >upset by me calling their state dumbf*ckistan, they're probably neo-cons
> >anyway and I couldn't care less what they think.  Our hope is that
they'll
> >continue sending their offspring to war en masse and eventually evolution
> >will kick in and the warmongering dipsh*ts will die off OR they'll
finally
> >see that on the other side of the ridicule, there's a better way.
> >
> >I -used to be- one of those nice politically correct liberals (before I
was
> >a former libertarian, I was a former socialist...now I've realized that
> >situational pragmatism is the only way to work politics) that would let
> >people have their say even if they were lying snooty jerks, and then
> >respond politely and with clear discursive argumentation.  Now, if I see
a
> >lying snooty jerk, I call them a lying snooty jerk.  This is a bit
> >reactionary, it certainly breaks the rule my mamma told me "If you use
bad
> >words it's because you don't have anything to say".
> >
> >I got tired of the conservative pundits having all the fun making fun of
> >liberals and so decided to join in and since I've long since said
> >everything I have to say about the war, it's bad words time - and my
mamma
> >forgives me in this particular case.
> >
> >In fact, I think I have understood one major part of what causes those
> >dipsh*ts to be conservatives, they like the fact that they can make fun
of
> >someone, it makes them feel superior.  Well, if what they like is
ridicule
> >then I say give'em what they want.  -Remember that Wally George, Imus and
> >Rush Limbaugh are their HEROS-.
> >
> >Put it in conservative language.  There comes a time for talking, when
you
> >have an honest disagreement with someone, and you think there's a chance
to
> >come to a peaceful resolution.  But sometimes the enemy is soo
beligerent,
> >so oppressive and so self-absorbed that any rational discussion is
useless.
> >  Then what?  In grade school it was time to start kicking the shins.
> >Since I'm a nonviolent person, I won't shoot senators.  I don't have
enough
> >money to afford the kind of lawyers that would be needed to tie them up
in
> >court so I do what I can - I tell the truth about what they do and then
> >yell mean names at them 'till I'm blue in the face hoping that EVENTUALLY
> >people will come to see things my way - even if they end up hating me in
> >the process.
> >
> >Thankfully, this has recently happened:
> >
> >Zogby reports his overall approval rating from "likely voters" to be less
> >than 50% and declining for two weeks straight (currently at 42%).  On
Iraq
> >he's 60% disapprove, 40% approve according to CNN.
> >
> >Things like this make my day.  I hope this lasts until the 2006
mid-terms.
> >What with gas prices on the rise, the economy still in the slumps, the
> >ever-increasing defecit, the body bags and the plans to nuke Iran, I
don't
> >foresee a lot of forthcoming popularity.  On the other hand, he may be
able
> >to drag us into another war in order to bolster his popularity.  Ve shall
> >see.
> >
> >Meanwhile, if you like to play the part of the nice liberal, by all
means,
> >go for it!  The ear doesn't try to be the eyes does it?
> >
> >R
> >
> >
> >On Aug 7, 2005, at 11:25 PM, Brian Lee wrote:
> >
> >>I find it comical that you harangue the red staters for being stupid and
> >>then express your own stupidity by calling them "country-bumpkin
citizens
> >>of dumbf*ckistan".
> >>
> >>There's a name for those who can't understand the viewpoints of others:
> >>fundamentalists. You're acting like a fundamentalist in your belief that
> >>you are correct and tons of others are wrong. It goes both ways. I think
> >>calling 51% of the US idiots is no way to further your cause. You're
going
> >>to need to understand the right and why they win elections in order to
> >>regain control of the US. Belittling constituents is not the way to go
> >>about it.
> >>
> >>BAL
> >>
> >>>From: Robert Lindauer <robgobblin at aol.com>
> >>>To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> >>>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] can't war protesters do better?
> >>>Date: Sun, 7 Aug 2005 20:15:10 -1000
> >>>
> >>>Then why bother asking the war protesters to do better.  The convinced
> >>>are convinced - so vat else is new?
> >>>
> >>>"nobody's innocent" - Kingpin
> >>>
> >>>In any case, us war protesters have done our job and thank goodness,
> >>>saying we haven't is just absurd.
> >>>
> >>>Robbie
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Aug 7, 2005, at 10:37 AM, Al Brooks wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>This is comprehensive post. But nothing I've read convinces me the war
> >>>>ought to be terminated now. If you want to think my position is
> >>>>America's role in Iraq is innocent until proven guilty, fine. It
> >>>>probably is.
> >>>>And of course the war is mainly about oil, it is a given; petroleum is
> >>>>the lifeblood of the economy.
> >>>>
> >>>>>Great.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Al, baby. War protesters DO BETTER. In fact, now that the
> >>>>>administration's approval rating on Iraq is down to 38%, I'd say that
> >>>>>the anti-war message is finally getting across effectively. Body bags
> >>>>>and information tend to do that and every once in a while stories
from
> >>>>>Iraq do get home - mostly the bad news of more dead people. Go team!
> >>>>>Kill, Kill, Kill!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Secondly, it's easy to make fun of idiots. That's why people no
longer
> >>>>>make fun of that drug addict with the white hair and television show.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>In fact, it's too easy. In fact, the anti-war movement makes such a
> >>>>>good rational case for not being at war with Iraq that it appears the
> >>>>>only thing left to do is make fun of the idiots that still buy into
it.
> >>>>>If you doubt this, please explain why we're at war in Iraq
remembering
> >>>>>some essential facts:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>1) There are ! now WMD's there, there haven't been for years, and
both
> >>>>>the CIA and British intelligence KNEW this and told the American and
> >>>>>British Administrative branches BEFORE they decided to go to war and
> >>>>>make the case before the UN. The UN inspectors were there verifying
> >>>>>this before the war and when they were kicked out by US threats of
war,
> >>>>>they exclaimed that there simply was no threat there. This is
> >>>>>unsuprising given the years of UN inspections and the awesome
economic
> >>>>>burden we put on Iraq after the Kuwait Invasion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>2) Al quaeda was completely uninvolved in Iraq before the war and
> >>>>>their current involvement is at best questionable. In fact, due to
the
> >>>>>outrage at us having invaded Iraq, the level of islamic extremist
> >>>>>terrorist threat worldwide, but especially for US and British
targets,
> >>>>>has increased - as predicted by the CIA prior to the invasion of
Iraq.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>3) The level of nepotism in Iraq is unparalleled. Haliburton - the
> >>>>>company ! that still gives Cheney a million dollars a year - LOST a
> >>>>>billion dollars after having won an unreviewed government contract
> >>>>>without competition. UDI, a subsidiary of the Carlyle Group on whose
> >>>>>board sits Pappy Bush himself, is the biggest defense contractor and
to
> >>>>>date the one who's made the most money from this war. Prior to the
war
> >>>>>itself, Iraqi expatriots and a few oil companies met to divvy up the
> >>>>>spoils and our own deputy defense minister said that it was "job
number
> >>>>>1" to secure the oil fields. Make no mistakes, they're in it for the
> >>>>>money.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>4) There are other countries in the world that actually DO have
> >>>>>weapons of mass destruction - like Korea and Pakistan - that actually
> >>>>>ARE ruled by maniacs - and Pakistan is an ally of our and we're not
> >>>>>invading North Korea any time soon. Why? Because it's not our job to
> >>>>>fix all the governments in the world. It's neither our job nor is it
> >>>>>within our reasonable reach. We simply c! ouldn't fight North Korea
and
> >>>>>Iraq at the same time without fundamentally changing our country into
a
> >>>>>complete war machine - re-instituting the draft, raising taxes,
further
> >>>>>plunging our country into debt, not to mention the body bags - and
you
> >>>>>know what, voter here wouldn't stand for it any more than they stood
> >>>>>for vietnam or Korea. And worse than that, the terrorists would have
> >>>>>won. America would be dead. America is a dream of freedom,
> >>>>>opportunity, peace and prosperity. If we don't start remembering
> >>>>>quickly what those core values are and acting on them, America will
be
> >>>>>gone anyway.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>5) Finally the fiscal point. After the idiot in chief got himself
> >>>>>punditted into office by the supreme court (notably not the supreme
> >>>>>court of Florida who -actually- had jurisdiction there) and some
> >>>>>talking heads, we were plunged into a dreadful recession (perhaps you
> >>>>>didn't notice), and the idiot in chief had no idea what to do about
it,
> >>>>>h! imself having been the ceo of a couple of failed companies. So
what
> >>>>>did he do? He started a war to give people something else to think
> >>>>>about and spend money on. Oh and did I mention the money - 9 Trillion
> >>>>>dollars of debt in 6 years. That's right, the LIBERALS had balanced
> >>>>>the budget. Until, well, the belly-up ceo of our country decided to
> >>>>>bankrupt it. This is the kind of thing that happens when you leave
> >>>>>your 11-year-old kid to mind the store while you and the wife go on
> >>>>>vacation for a month. This point -should- bother people like Lorrey,
> >>>>>but of course that -kind- of libertarian has their head stuck so far
up
> >>>>>the unmentionable orifices of the establishment that it's not
> >>>>>surprising their ocular nodes don't work being themselves soaked with
> >>>>>odoriferous bile.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>But of course, these points were well made a few years ago. That the
> >>>>>right wing fascist pigs that run this country and the country-bumpkin
> >>>>>citizens of dumbf*ckistan in t! he red states can't fathom why anyone
> >>>>>is
> >>>>>against the war is only a sign of either their malice or stupidity.
> >>>>>Consequently, when what's left of the so-called liberal media only
> >>>>>pokes fun at the evil and stupid, how can you blame them? What more
is
> >>>>>there to say? Was something overlooked?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Robbie Lindauer
> >>>>>
> >>>>>PS - NOW that someone with an opposing view has spoken up, should you
> >>>>>take this to extro-freedom or should we allow this f-ing liberal to
> >>>>>continue to ridicule the stupid/evil people on the hawkish side of
the
> >>>>>fence?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Aug 6, 2005, at 10:36 AM, spike wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> >> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-
> >>>>> >> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Robert Lindauer
> >>>>> >> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2005 12:44 PM
> >>>>> >> To: ExI chat list
> >>>>> >> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] can't war protesters do better?
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >&! gt; I wonder, does -this- thread belong on ex=freedom or
whatever?
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Let's let it sputter on a while. Doesn't look like it is
> >>>>> > going anywhere in particular. spike
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> On Aug 6, 2005, at 9:14 AM, Al Brooks wrote:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >>> Polemics are valuable, I'm accused of being a "pabulum spewer"
and
> >>>>> >>> for
> >>>>> >>> "mistaking twaddle for objectivity" by leftwing stormtroopers in
> >>>>> >>> this
> >>>>> >>> most politically polarized town I live in...
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
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> >>>>> > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> >>>>> > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat
> >>>>>
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> >>
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