[extropy-chat] letter concerning presidential growth

[Samantha Atkins]

On Dec 17, 2005, at 5:52 AM, Gary Miller wrote:

> If the United Nations would have developed as a just and courageous  
> vehicle
> for the upholding of international law and resolving differences  
> peacefully
> and fairly, Americans might have given the UN dissenting opinions  
> to the war
> a lot more weight.
>

It can do this exactly how unless we agree to it having any such  
ability?  Remember the ICC?  We squash the UN having such power.   
Personally I wouldn't want this body to have as much power as you  
suggest.

> As we found out, they are just a group of corrupt representatives  
> all with
> their country's and individual hands out.
>

As opposed to Enron cqziness with this administration,  A VP whose  
former company gets most of the juicy pork from our Iraqi adventure,  
a President whose family is long time entangle with Saudi royalty and  
has ties to the oil industry?   What of what you are saying could not  
be applied to our own government?

> Had the oil for food fiasco not happened, Americans might feel a lot
> differently even repentant about not listening to them.
>

Not in the least did the oil for food ploy become a "fiasco"  
soffucient to ignore whether dissenters , most of whom had nothing to  
do with oil for food, had a valid point.

> Regardless of whether we went to war for the right reasons or not  
> the UN at
> large was on Sadam's payroll.
>

This is a preposterous accusation.  Saddam didn't have enough bucks  
for such massive bribery.  The US on the other hand effectively  
controls the UN and much of its purse.

> For most Americans now the United Nations and international now is  
> a sad
> joke.

It is when Bush would not even support the ICC.

>   We have quite enough corruption to root out in our own  
> government.  I
> don't think we need to complicate our decisions and foot the bill  
> besides
> for an international organization more concerned with lining it's  
> pockets
> than preventing genocide in the world.

That is quite a leap you are making.  From one scandal in a program  
that was preposterous to start with to divining the entire character  
and worth of the entire UN.

>
> Most Americans have a pretty strong moral compass.  For an  
> international
> body to have major influence over us it must be above reproach.
>

If we had such a strong moral compass we would have sacked Washington  
DC and salted the earth it was on generations ago.
>
> I for one think Sadam should have been removed due to the atrocities
> committed on his people.
>

Great.  Next time go do it on your own time instead of taking money  
from me at gunpoint for your foolish adventures.

> One would have hoped the Iraqi people would have all came together and
> embraced each other as a country and cherished this chance at  
> democracy and
> a better way of life we have given them.

We are not giving them a better way of life.  They live under  
occupation and fear in a country with seriously comprised  
infrastructure.   Also many of the Iraqi factions do not want any  
sort of peaceful melting pot that we might dream of imposing.  Many  
faction are not remotely interested in what they consider decadent  
Western notions of democracy.

> And I too would like us to return to Extropian topics.  Everyone  
> has already
> analyzed this to death and came to their own understanding right or  
> wrong on
> these issues long ago.  If I or anyone else think they are going to  
> change
> anyone's minds on what they already have come to decide on this  
> topic, I
> think they're living in a dream world.
>

If we can't learn to question or opinions and discuss them with one  
another then imho we have a long way to go to achieving any sort of  
extropic future.

>>> I think your nation state of America has become the single greatest
> threat to extropy in the world because your countrymen have been so
> complacent in regard to their responsibilities to their fellow  
> human beings
> that they have allowed successive US Presidential administrations to
> increasingly flagrantly undermine the basis of international laws
> established for the purpose of maintaining international peace and  
> security.

Hey, I can't argue with some of that.   More importantly, we have not  
stood up to increasing imperialism and a run away government that has  
pretty much eviscerated our rights and freedoms.  The Emperor is  
naked.  We have little left to wave in the face of other sovereign  
nations as being so obviously superior that they should be overjoyed  
if we invade their country next on the pretext of "helping" them.

- samantha