[extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked

[Greg Burch]

Eugen, you chided folks for politics talk.  Now here you are voicing the same hysterical nonsense.  Maybe we were all just fooling ourselves that we lived on the same planet before 911.  SInce then, it seems that it's become less and less possible to communicate across ideological divides.

I spend as much time as I can afford reading material written by people with whom I disagree.  But I honestly don't think many of the politics posters on this list do.  What I see from the America-bashers and Bush-haters posting here is the equal of the absolute most shrill Democratic Underground posts (a far-left BBS, for folks not steeped in U.S. politics) and the Guardian's and Le Monde's op-ed pages.

Maybe it's because I work professionally in what is functionally a job of practical politics and have been an academic student of politcal philosophy and history all my life; but I'm getting to the point that I can hardly bring myself to even scan these posts, they are so steeped in cliches and not-even-half-truths.  The caricature of America as a fascist military state that is depicted in these posts would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.  Of course those who have been making these posts will say, "Why do you think the world sees America this way?"  Well, I've tried to explain this as civilly as I can.  In my view, the cultural machinery of much of the West has been hijacked over the last 40 years by people who subscribe to what I have come to see as a deeply flawed ideology.  It has become so pervasive in the cultural spheres of much of the developed world outside the U.S. (and San Francisco, Seattle and a few other U.S. urban regions count in that sphere) that people who don't make a concerted effort to work through to expose themselves to other points of view don't realize that every word they read, every image they see is a product of this world-view.  One of the foundational elements of this world-view is the demonization of the United States, its culture, politics and foreign policies.

Just as only a tiny handful of the thousands of people whose testimony I've taken in the last 17 years as a lawyer actually, consciusly knew they were lying when it could be proved they were stating a falsehood under oath, almost no-one is aware of the foundational ideologial and cultural premises of the world-view upon which their opinions about politics and culture are based -- these things are like water to a fish, so ubiquitous that it goes unnoticed and unquestioned.  It takes a lot of effort to make one's self aware of such things and then to engage in a process of systematic and on-going testing to develop and maintain a consistent, rational political and cultural philosophy.  Most people, whose daily lives do not revolve around such things don't have the time or inclination to do it.  I'm not saying anyone else should somehow accept my opinions just because I believe that's the job I've set for myself -- after all, there are people who disagree with me who have invested just as much effort and come to different conclusions.  But before tossing off the opinion that Europe should ally itself with Russia to develop a nuclear shield against U.S. agression, you might just stop and ask yourself what assumptions about the the U.S. such an opinion is necessarily based on.

... oh well, maybe I shouldn't respond to a post before I've finished my first cup of coffee ...

GB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Eugen Leitl
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 4:52 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Debunked
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 09, 2005 at 01:43:25AM -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote:
> 
> > Are you sure this is what we voted for?  Are you vetting the last 
> 
> Yes. Nobody contested the vote. It look as if a small majority (i.e. trees
> and shrubs voting vor Bush) voted for this administration. No 
> secession, no
> armed uprise, no emigration. Yep, you voted for them.
> 
> > election?  Do any people really deserve destruction at the hands of 
> > their supposed servants?   Do those within and without the US who did 
> 
> Is that a rhetorical question? If no, I see exactly zero unrest, 
> and people
> marching on the streets. Yes, you have the government you deserve.
> 
> > not vote for this also deserve whatever hell it turns out to be?
> 
> I think at this stage of the game it is obvious that the only 
> countries that
> are safe are those with credible deterrence potential. 
> 
> Unfortunately, the EU is too slow to realize that, and start 
> investing in a
> nuclear umbrella (teaming up with Russia would seem like a good idea), as 
> well as the ability to protect its assets in orbit and/or be able to 
> terminate enemy assets.
> 
> -- 
> Eugen* Leitl <a href="http://leitl.org">leitl</a>
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