From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Jan 1 00:27:55 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:27:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~ Message-ID: <008001c4ef98$c33a1e90$1db71218@Nano> The Nanogirl News December 31, 2004 Nanotubes form along atomic steps. The Weizmann Institute of Science today announced that a research group headed by Dr. Ernesto Joselevich has developed a new approach to create patterns of carbon nanotubes by formation along atomic steps on sapphire surfaces. Carbon nanotubes are excellent candidates for the production of nanoelectronic circuits, but their assembly into ordered arrays remains a major obstacle toward this application. (Eurekalert 12/21/04) http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/wi-nfa122104.php Robert A.Freitas Jr. has his lecture in which he spoke at the Foresight conference available online. In his lecture material you can read about and view images on his new and first of it's kind proposal, for building DMS tooltips using current technology, as disclosed in his Feb. 2004 provisional patent application. Stay tuned for more available material. http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm Red blood cells are go! Physicists in India have shown that red blood cells can transfer the angular momentum in a circularly polarized laser beam into rotational motion. The "motor" developed by Deepak Mathur and colleagues at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR) in Mumbai could find use in a variety of applications, including biosensors and cellular micromachines (J A Dharmadhikari et al. 2004 Appl. Phys. Lett. 85 6048). (Physicsweb 12/14/04) http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/12/8/1 UCSB Scientists Build Nanoscale 'Jigsaw' Puzzles Made of RNA. Scientists at the University of California, Santa Barbara, working at the leading edge of bionanotechnology, are using assembly and folding principles of natural RNA, or ribonucleic acid, to build beautiful and potentially useful artificial structures at the nano-scale. Possible applications include the development of nanocircuits, medical implants, and improved medical testing. This research, published in the December 17 issue of the journal Science, is led by Luc Jaeger, assistant professor in the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at UCSB and a member of UCSB's Biomolecular Science and Engineering Program, and by Arkadiusz Chworos, a post-doctoral fellow studying in Jaeger's lab. (UCSB 12/17/04) http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=1225 Nanotechnology sensors could be a $17 billion market. In a new report, NanoMarkets LC predicts that the nanotechnology sensor market will generate global revenues of $2.8 billion in 2008 and by 2012 will reach $17.2 billion. The industry analyst focused on nanoelectronics sensors that are used to reduce size and cost to provide a high level of integration including platforms consisting of carbon nanotubes, nanowires, molectronics, spintronics and so called plastic electronics. Another area of attention in the report is directed to conventional sensors using nanomaterials and sensing material. (EETimes 12/08/04) http://www.eetimes.com/at/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=55300380 'Fountain pen' etches with molecular ink. Scientists in the Netherlands have used a micromachined "fountain pen" to write and etch sub-micron patterns on a surface with molecular "ink". The new device developed by Miko Elwenspoek and colleagues at the University of Twente is based on an atomic force microscope (S Deladi et al. 2004 Appl. Phys. Lett. 85 5361). (nanotechweb 12/13/04) http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/3/12/9/1 Artificial cells take shape. Bacterium-sized 'protein factories' are a step along the road to synthetic life. Primitive cells similar to bacteria have been created by US researchers. These synthetic cells are not truly alive, because they cannot replicate or evolve. But they can churn out proteins for days, and could be useful for drug production, as well as advancing the quest to build artificial life from scratch. (nature.com 12/6/04) http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041206/full/041206-2.html In some of the first work documenting the uptake of carbon nanotubes by living cells, a team of chemists and life scientists from Rice University, the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston and the Texas Heart Institute have selectively detected low concentrations of nanotubes in laboratory cell cultures. The research appears in the Dec. 8 issue of the Journal of the American Chemical Society. It suggests that the white blood cells, which were incubated in dilute solutions of nanotubes, treated the nanotubes as they would other extracellular particles - actively ingesting them and sealing them off inside chambers known as phagosomes. (Bio 12/9/04) http://www.bio.com/newsfeatures/newsfeatures_research.jhtml?cid=6500163 Tiny Crystals In Large Quantities Method produces monodisperse nanocrystals on multigram scale. Uniform-sized nanocrystals can be prepared in large batches through a new preparation method developed by researchers in South Korea. The technique may hasten development of future nanotechnology applications by providing a low-cost route to commercial quantities of uniform nanocrystals. Researchers working in nanometer-scale science have demonstrated a variety of devices that exploit unique optical, electronic, and other size-dependent properties of nanocrystals. (C&E 12/6/04) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/8249/8249notw4.html Team Engineers Cell-deforming Technique To Help Understand Malaria. Subra Suresh has spent the last two decades studying the mechanical properties of engineered materials from the atomic to the structural scale. So, until recently, the head of MIT's Department of Materials Science and Engineering never thought he'd be a player in the hunt for cures to malaria and pancreatic cancer. (Sciencedaily 12/30/04) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041219212955.htm (Interview) Rebuilding Things "Atom by Atom". Nanoscience expert Chad Mirkin discusses the promise of supersmall materials, what breakthroughs are likely, and what's just hype. Chad Mirkin is a world leader in a field with potential that's near limitless: Nanotechnology. Governments, venture funds, and angel investors are pouring billions of dollars into the area, hoping that the ability to manipulate materials at the atomic level will produce revolutionary medicines, metals, and fuels. Mirkin is director of Northwestern University's Institute for Nanotechnology, one of the field's research hot spots. He says while certain aspects of nano, such as a proliferation of nanosize robots, are overhyped, other breakthroughs are already happening. He recently talked from his Evanston (Ill.) office with BusinessWeek Senior Writer Stephen Baker. Edited excerpts from their conversation follow:...(Businessweek 12/29/04) http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/dec2004/nf20041228_7625_db083.htm Winning an Uphill Battle. It sounds as unlikely as toothpaste flowing back into the tube: A simple hole in a cell membrane can cause glycerol to flow "uphill," out of the cell, when the higher concentration outside would ordinarily make it flow the other way. Known as a channel protein, the molecular hatch acts like a ratchet to squeeze one glycerol molecule after another in the direction opposite the concentration gradient, researchers calculate in the 3 December PRL. Cells may use this effect to avoid overdosing on glycerol. (Physicsweb 12/3/04) http://focus.aps.org/story/v14/st23 Suit that never gets dirty. Scientists have won a ?1million grant to help develop clothes that never need cleaning. It will aid research into nano-technology, looking at the properties of fabrics down to atomic particles. And it could make the plot of the 1951 Ealing comedy The Man In The White Suit a reality. In the film, scientist Sidney Stratton, played by Alec Guinness, invents a fabric that never gets dirty or wears out. Experiments The real experiments will be carried out by chemical giant Unilever. (Dailyrecord 12/31/04) http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15026874&method=full&siteid=89488&headline=suit-that-never-gets-dirty-name_page.html Molecular motor goes both ways. University of Edinburgh researchers have constructed a molecular motor that can spin in either direction, much like the biological molecular motors involved in many of life's processes. The motor consists of a pair of interlocking rings; the smaller ring travels clockwise or counterclockwise around the larger ring depending on the order in which several chemical reactions are carried out on the molecule. (TRN 12/29/04) http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2004/122904/Molecular_motor_goes_both_ways_Brief_122904.html Simmons remakes bed with nano-enhanced fabric. In June, Nano-Tex Chief Executive Donn Tice said his firm would pursue new markets like home furnishings. He recently made good on the promise with the unveiling of Simmons Bedding Co.'s new HealthSmart bed. The bed, which features a zip-off mattress top, is intended to appeal to consumers who want a cleaner mattress. The mattress top is made of two layers of fabric. On top are DuPont Coolmax fibers designed to wick away sweat and moisture. Under that is a semi-impervious layer of Nano-Tex-enhanced fabric that traps fluids and particles so they can be washed out. The mattress frame has a terry cloth top treated with Teflon for an extra layer of protection. (SmallTimes 12/22/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8489 Smart Dust Advances in Russia. Smart Dust is going to be something really special. But not just yet. Like a toddler learning to walk by "furniture cruising," staggering wobbly from stationary object to object, Smart Dust is looking for its sea legs. The birth of Smart Dust potential was based on RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) and the journey toward full-on Distributed-Sensing Smart Dust-which is the goal for final evolution of this technology--will be a long and arduous one. (GatewaytoRussia 12/16/04) http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_260273.php (Audio) Do Nanotech Products Live Up to the Hype? Nanotechnology is the science of designing materials, atom by atom. It promises revolutionary applications for everything from the military to sports. NPR's David Kestenbaum investigates whether nanotech products already on the market are all they're cracked up to be. (NPR 12/31/04) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4252587 Tight Twist Toughens Nano Fiber. Researchers from the University of Texas at Dallas and the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) in Australia have strengthened carbon nanotube yarn by introducing a tight twist as the nanotubes are spun. The method taps the secret of spinning discovered in the Late Stone Age: a tight twist produces a tough fiber. (Always On 12/14/04) http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=7486_0_6_0_C European researchers build prototype DNA 'velcro'. A team of German scientists has succeeded in creating what they call DNA 'velcro' to bind and then separate nanoparticles. Nanoscientists are already busily constructing novel materials. This experiment could lead, one day, to 'self-constructing' materials. Based at the University of Dortmund, Christof Niemeyer and his team used strands of artificial DNA - the so-called 'king of molecules' - to attach gold nanoparticles together before separating them again. Each gold particle, measuring just 15 nanometres across, was attached using sulphur to the centre of a DNA strand. (Europa 12/14/04) http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/headlines/news/article_04_12_14_en.html Encapsulated Carbon Nanotubes for Implantable Biological Sensors to Monitor Blood Glucose Levels. Protein-encapsulated single-walled carbon nanotubes that alter their fluorescence in the presence of specific biomolecules could generate many new types of implantable biological sensors, say researchers from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign who developed the encapsulation technique. (A2ZNano 12/13/04) http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=439 Coated nanotubes make biosensors. good sensor should be able to sense extremely small changes and should be able to transmit this information about its environment consistently. Researchers working to make sensors that indicate a given chemical or biological agent after sensing only a few or even a single molecule of that substance are turning to the minuscule tools of nanotechnology. Researchers from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign are using carbon nanotubes to sense single molecules, and are tapping the way carbon nanotubes give off near-infrared light in order to read what the sensors have detected. (TRN Dec/Jan 04) http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2004/122904/Coated_nanotubes_make_biosensors_Brief_122904.html Nanotechnology comes to golf balls. Sometime in 2005, start-up company NanoDynamics plans to sell a nanotech golf ball that promises to dramatically reduce hooks and slices for even the most frustrated of weekend golfers. That will be a hint of the future of sports. NanoDynamics says it's figured out how to alter the materials in a golf ball at the molecular level so the weight inside shifts less as the ball spins. The less it shifts, the straighter even a badly hit ball will go. (iseekgolf.com 12/24/04) http://www.iseekgolf.com/view_articles.php/0/26/6192/4/52/0/1/ NanoSus working on nanofur. If humans ever gain the ability to crawl up walls like geckos, you can bet that it might have something to do with nanotechnology research. Creating an artificial version of the tiny fibers on geckos' toes is just one research project among many at Nanosys in Palo Alto. Even if the product, dubbed "nano fur," doesn't pan out in consumer products such as sneakers for walking up walls, Nanosys believes the technology will be an important tool for molecular researchers. (SmallTimes 12/28/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?section_id=45&document_id=8539 Just How Old Can He Go? Ray Kurzweil began his dinner with a pill. "A starch blocker," he explained, "one of my 250 supplements a day." The risk of encountering starchy food seemed slight indeed at the vegetarian restaurant in Manhattan he had selected, where the fare was heavy with kale, seaweed, tofu, steamed broccoli and bean sprouts. But Mr. Kurzweil, a renowned inventor and computer scientist, has strong views on dietary matters. His regimen for longevity is not everyone's cup of tea (preferably green tea, Mr. Kurzweil advises, which contains extra antioxidants to reduce the risk of heart disease and cancer). And most people would scoff at his notion that emerging trends in medicine, biotechnology and nanotechnology open a realistic path to immortality - the central claim of a new book by Mr. Kurzweil and Dr. Terry Grossman, a physician and founder of a longevity clinic in Denver. (GoUpstate 12/27/04) http://www.goupstate.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041227/ZNYT05/412270340/1027/OPINION -Or here at CNet: http://news.com.com/Just+how+old+can+he+go/2100-7337_3-5504202.html Happy New Year! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate member http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Sat Jan 1 01:45:34 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:45:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] TransAct: A new Transhumanist activism email list Message-ID: <41D600BE.4040309@humanenhancement.com> I am pleased to announce the formation of an email list dedicated to dissemination of information regarding political causes, pending legistlation, calls to action, etc. relating to Transhumanism and Transhumanist-related issues. The list may be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TransAct/ The list will not be maintained under the auspices of any particular organization, and will thus be able to deal with specific legislation, political candidates, etc. without threatening any organization's 501(c)3 non-profit status in the United States. It is my sincere hope that this list will help jumpstart Transhumanism's influence on mainstream politics and society, by inspiring true grassroots organizing on practical issues of legislation and social action. Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 1 03:23:25 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:23:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050101032325.86220.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Oh man, carnivorous robots. What a concept. Now > our "mind children" > can potentially compete for food, eh? At least > that is how the > paranoid may see it. > > Wouldn't a nice little fleck of some radioactive > isotope be maybe a > touch more preferable than instilling hunting > patterns (presumably) and > the ability to digest biological creatures? As has been pointed out, these robots don't hunt - and besides, their food sources aren't quite the same as ours. But putting those aside for the moment...if they did evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most likely what would happen is the same thing that's happened as more and more humans have "competed" for food over time: new sources of food and new technology drive supply up to meet the demand, resulting in lower costs for any given person to acquire the food they need, and better quality food. Some of the effort to establish that will likely be supplied by the new "competitors", whose primary motivation - being fed - doesn't actually demand that all competitors suffer. (In fact, the smarter ones will likely realize that having many many food sources out there means that much more of a chance that its own ration of food will be available to it - even if it also means that everyone else can also eat.) From sentience at pobox.com Sat Jan 1 05:03:59 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 00:03:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians Message-ID: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> Happy New Year! Here's a little something to start off the year. It's a holiday so you've got plenty of time to read, right? http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/technical.html "A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation" TechExp is a sequel to the _Intuitive Explanation of Bayesian Reasoning_. In the beginning of TechExp there's some new math that wasn't in the _Intuitive Explanation_, but after that TechExp dives straight into human rationality and philosophy of science. I'm glad I can finally publish this. There have been many times in recent online conversations when I wished I could refer to it. PS: The Singularity Institute made the 33.3% public support threshold. Forward the Singularity! -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 1 06:04:46 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:04:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Sure, dream on..... ever heard of hackers? computer viruses? sociopaths? >Samantha Atkins >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton > >Oh man, carnivorous robots. > >Oh no, very much on the contrary. A machine that powers itself by >devouring bio-creatures >is a verrrry desireable breakthru, ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 06:23:14 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 01:23:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> Yes, down with the obviously non-desirable self-powering robots! I hear those nasty hackers, computer viruses, and sociopaths can manipulate PCs to evil ends, as well. And don't forget sociopaths running us down in automobiles, or rigging internal combustion engines to explode in public areas, and making use of that bullshit "lever" invention to hurl rocks at us, and use that nasty setback "fire" to burn us. Good call, Hara! On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:04:46 -0800, Hara Ra wrote: > Sure, dream on..... > > ever heard of hackers? > computer viruses? > sociopaths? > > > Samantha Atkins > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton > > Oh man, carnivorous robots. > > Oh no, very much on the contrary. A machine that powers itself by > devouring bio-creatures > is a verrrry desireable breakthru, > > ================================== > > = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = > = harara at sbcglobal.net = > = Alcor North Cryomanagement = > = Alcor Advisor to Board = > = 831 429 8637 = > ================================== > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 1 07:44:21 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:44:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> No question that a self-powering machine would be nice. But this isn't quite that any more than humans are fully "self-powering". It needs an external source of "nutrition" to convert to power. If it isn't too much trouble to self-contain a very long-lasting energy source then why not avoid all that messy biological digestion and dependence on biological food supply? I imagine we would like to use such small robots in environments having no guarantee of an adequate supply of flies or whatever. As far as having robots eat various undesirable things I think we are more adept at adapting existing biological creatures, from microbes on up, to such purposes for many applications. So far, where they exist, the biological solutions are often cheaper. -s spike wrote: > Samantha Atkins > *Subject:* Re: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton > > > > Oh man, carnivorous robots. What a concept. Now our "mind children" > can potentially compete for food, eh? At least that is how the > paranoid may see it. > > Wouldn't a nice little fleck of some radioactive isotope be maybe a > touch more preferable than instilling hunting patterns (presumably) > and the ability to digest biological creatures? > > - s > > > > Oh no, very much on the contrary. A machine that powers itself by > devouring bio-creatures > > is a verrrry desireable breakthru, for presumably they can be designed > to devour *very specific > > kinds* of biota, such as flies, mosquitoes, gnats, ants, roaches, > aphids, locusts and so on, > > all manner of pests we would much rather have devoured than not. Our > mind children would > > not compete against us for food, but rather devour our competitors for > food, as well as those > > beasts which spread disease or annoy us. We might even be able to use > their carbon waste > > products for some useful purpose (altho it is not immediately clear to > me the value of > > robot shit.) > > > > If we can get this to work, it would perhaps be a step along the path > to a more important > > development: an herbivorous pest-devouring automaton, which would > power itself by > > munching weeds in our yards, gardens and farms. If we could get them > to differentiate > > Kentucky bluegrass from all other plants, for instance, imagine the > fortunes that could be > > made. If it could differentiate corn from shell weed, wheat from > tares, oh my, the commercial > > value is difficult to estimate. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From pgptag at runbox.com Sat Jan 1 11:31:36 2005 From: pgptag at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:31:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A New Year's gift for Bayesians Message-ID: This looks great Eliezer, thanks. It is a real new year gift as for a few days we will all have more time for reading interesting things (alas, does not last). Happy new year to you. Giulio --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.820 / Virus Database: 558 - Release Date: 20/12/2004 From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 12:51:40 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:51:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101032325.86220.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <20050101032325.86220.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050101125140.GW9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Dec 31, 2004 at 07:23:25PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > As has been pointed out, these robots don't hunt - What, they can't hunt? A remote exploit there, a code patch here, here ya go. That's just what we need, agribots2predator worms. > and besides, their food sources aren't quite the same > as ours. Oh yeah, that makes me feel completely safe already. > But putting those aside for the moment...if they did > evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most likely How about you being their food? > what would happen is the same thing that's happened as > more and more humans have "competed" for food over But robots are not animals. > time: new sources of food and new technology drive > supply up to meet the demand, resulting in lower costs > for any given person to acquire the food they need, > and better quality food. Some of the effort to > establish that will likely be supplied by the new > "competitors", whose primary motivation - being fed - > doesn't actually demand that all competitors suffer. > (In fact, the smarter ones will likely realize that > having many many food sources out there means that > much more of a chance that its own ration of food will > be available to it - even if it also means that > everyone else can also eat.) And, verily, the lion laith down with the lamb. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 1 12:54:07 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:54:07 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Graphing Calculator Story Message-ID: <20050101124408.M37264@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Happy New Year's, Extropes! One week ago, I was collecting seaweed from the icy Baltic shores on the outskirts of Tallinn for a marine scientist friend to test one of his ideas. Two days ago I was walking in the birthplace of my father: Riga ("Paris of the North") while big white fluffy snowflakes converted a magical place into a white winter wonderland. Today I am watching the smoke still settling over Rome from the symphony of fireworks that embraces the city every year on New Years eve. I hope you had a good holiday. My buses, trains, and planes travels through Germany, Latvia and Estonia was unusual, tiring, but it recharged a few internal batteries. While catching up on some email and web stuff today, I came across the following story that might appeal to the programmer folks who reside here. Here is a story of a couple of crazy guys who believed so strongly in a piece of educational software that they broke all rules to get it done. I heard parts of this story from Ron Avitzur many years ago, but you must read the whole story, especially to understand some of the parts involved in corporate software development. I had a (very) small contract for Apple in the Advanced Technology Group supporting a scientific software package during the time that Ron and Greg were developing this software; what he writes is so true from what I remember of those years; I couldn't help smiling. Amara The Graphing Calculator Story http://www.pacifict.com/Story/ quote from the page: "Why did Greg and I do something so ludicrous as sneaking into an eight-billion-dollar corporation to do volunteer work? Apple was having financial troubles then, so we joked that we were volunteering for a nonprofit organization. In reality, our motivation was complex. Partly, the PowerPC was an awesome machine, and we wanted to show off what could be done with it; in the Spinal Tap idiom, we said, "OK, this one goes to eleven." Partly, we were thinking of the storytelling value. Partly, it was a macho computer guy thing - we had never shipped a million copies of software before. Mostly, Greg and I felt that creating quality educational software was a public service. We were doing it to help kids learn math. Public schools are too poor to buy software, so the most effective way to deliver it is to install it at the factory. Beyond this lies another set of questions, both psychological and political. Was I doing this out of bitterness that my project had been canceled? Was I subversively coopting the resources of a multinational corporation for my own ends? Or was I naive, manipulated by the system into working incredibly hard for its benefit? Was I a loose cannon, driven by arrogance and ego, or was I just devoted to furthering the cause of education? I view the events as an experiment in subverting power structures. I had none of the traditional power over others that is inherent to the structure of corporations and bureaucracies. I had neither budget nor headcount. I answered to no one, and no one had to do anything I asked. Dozens of people collaborated spontaneously, motivated by loyalty, friendship, or the love of craftsmanship. We were hackers, creating something for the sheer joy of making it work." And: Discussion of this story on slashdot http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/22/0146243 -------- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 12:58:11 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:58:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > Yes, down with the obviously non-desirable self-powering robots! Not self-powering. That's something different. Down with carnivorous robots! Long live methanol-guzzling self-refuelling robot chassis! > I hear those nasty hackers, computer viruses, and sociopaths can > manipulate PCs to evil ends, as well. And don't forget sociopaths If PCs were cruising Predator drones you'd have a point. > running us down in automobiles, or rigging internal combustion engines > to explode in public areas, and making use of that bullshit "lever" Yeah, and fire hazard due to burning giraffes. > invention to hurl rocks at us, and use that nasty setback "fire" to > burn us. > > Good call, Hara! -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 1 13:08:38 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 05:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101125140.GW9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050101130838.13604.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Dec 31, 2004 at 07:23:25PM -0800, Adrian > Tymes wrote: > > As has been pointed out, these robots don't hunt - > > What, they can't hunt? A remote exploit there, a > code patch here, here ya go. One needs certain hardware to be a good hunter. If you're a 10 cm wide toy robot on 1 kmph wheels with no manipulators, it doesn't matter what software you run. Which doesn't mean that there can't be robots with the requisite hardware. But even human intelligence can see the potential for that, and is likely to guard against it when designing robots that could hunt well. > > and besides, their food sources aren't quite the > same > > as ours. > > Oh yeah, that makes me feel completely safe already. It should. When was the last time, outside of fiction, you saw a cow (or any other herbivore) eat a person? Or, for a closer analogy, a vulture (or any other carrion feeder) eat a living person? (They may circle, but they stay away until you're dead.) > > But putting those aside for the moment...if they > did > > evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most > likely > > How about you being their food? Self-optimization would argue against that. Humans don't make good food animals, compared to the food animals that humans have bred. Any robot running its own directives enough to want to eat humans would realize that. Any other robot wanting to eat humans would be doing so at the directive of other humans - and then it just becomes a new way for people to kill people. We've plenty of those, yet we're still around today. > > what would happen is the same thing that's > happened as > > more and more humans have "competed" for food over > > But robots are not animals. Do you mean to emphasize that they would not react like animals competing for food? True - but, likewise, the ability to meet needs with technological development has been one of the things setting mankind apart from other animals. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 13:35:18 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:35:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101130838.13604.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050101125140.GW9221@leitl.org> <20050101130838.13604.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050101133518.GG9221@leitl.org> On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 05:08:38AM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > One needs certain hardware to be a good hunter. If No, people have lousy hardware. Are top of the foodchain, though. Hunting in packs will help, even with no or minimal tools. > you're a 10 cm wide toy robot on 1 kmph wheels with no > manipulators, it doesn't matter what software you run. Pretty contrieved example. Doesn't matter, I can still kill your grandma with one, by making her fall down the stairs. With a swarm of those, it's even easier. > Which doesn't mean that there can't be robots with the > requisite hardware. But even human intelligence can > see the potential for that, and is likely to guard > against it when designing robots that could hunt well. http://irobot.com/governmentindustrial/product_detail.cfm?prodid=32 Nevermind a PackBot with a shotgun or a Predator drone. Human intelligence, huh. > > Oh yeah, that makes me feel completely safe already. > > It should. When was the last time, outside of > fiction, you saw a cow (or any other herbivore) eat a Building systems which can run on plant material and animal carcasses is a Monstrously Dumb Idea. Such a component is only 1-2 evolutionary/design steps away from a killer. > person? Or, for a closer analogy, a vulture (or any > other carrion feeder) eat a living person? (They may > circle, but they stay away until you're dead.) > > > > But putting those aside for the moment...if they > > did > > > evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most > > likely > > > > How about you being their food? > > Self-optimization would argue against that. Humans > don't make good food animals, compared to the food > animals that humans have bred. Any robot running its Of course I'm assuming that all the easy prey is already gone. Or someone makes them preferrably hunt people. Maybe people with the wrong ID. > own directives enough to want to eat humans would > realize that. Any other robot wanting to eat humans > would be doing so at the directive of other humans - > and then it just becomes a new way for people to kill > people. We've plenty of those, yet we're still around > today. Actually, no, autonomous tools being killers is very, very new. In fact I doubt a single casualty has yet resulted from a completely autonomous killer drone. > > > what would happen is the same thing that's > > happened as > > > more and more humans have "competed" for food over > > > > But robots are not animals. > > Do you mean to emphasize that they would not react > like animals competing for food? True - but, > likewise, the ability to meet needs with technological > development has been one of the things setting mankind > apart from other animals. You're assuming that collectively people don't make monstrously dumb decisions. Unfortunately, they do. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 1 14:23:33 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] John Perry Barlow vs The Man Message-ID: <20050101140301.M87079@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Dec 17 2004 : >But won't this will be appealed to a higher court? You wouldn't expect >the lowest level court to be particularly interested in making a bold >statement on the 4th amendment. Barlow wrote on 21 December a long blog about his trial and what was accomplished and not accomplished. I suggest to go there for all of the details. "The Windmill Takes the First One" http://barlow.typepad.com/barlowfriendz/2004/12/the_windmill_ta.html# more Here is beginning of his blog: -------------------- beginning quote When one is jousting windmills, the possibility of getting whacked by a windmill blade goes with the enterprise. While I'm a veteran of many Quixotic campaigns, I've never become fully immune to the sting of defeat, and I'm still absorbing last Wednesday's drubbing in the North San Mateo County Courthouse. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, please see my previous post, A Taste of the System.) To put it bluntly, we lost the first round in our effort to limit the scope of administrative searches of checked airline luggage to something vaguely compatible with the 4th Amendment which states: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Actually, however, this loss was neither unanticipated, nor even unwelcome. We're aiming to set a precedent here, and in order to do that, we have to get to at least the state appellate level. This means that I have to lose twice (at the first hearing to suppress and then at the county appellate level) before I can win in a way that might begin to alter federal behavior. We may already be affecting federal behavior to some extent. I noticed that one of the links to A Taste of the System was from the TSA workers' website, so at least a few of those who toil in the bowels of baggage inspection are meditating on the hassles they might bring on themselves by reporting non-explosive contraband. The possibility that the bag in question might belong to some prickly fellow like me could make them think twice before calling the cops. (Or maybe not. I've learned from a TSA worker's account in the Miami New Times that some TSA workers are being offered cash rewards of up to $1000 for reporting drugs.) Moreover, we seem to have hit a public nerve that may encourage a more general prickliness about this stuff. I'm beginning to think that, whatever the judicial result, I've done some social good merely by standing up and saying, as many silently believe, that these searches suck. We got, and are getting, a fair amount of press. NPR ran a segment on All Things Considered Thursday. CNN is planning on covering the story, along with a broader look at TSA screening procedures, tonight. The Washington Post ran a story about it yesterday. There was also local coverage, including the San Jose Mercury News and San Francisco's KGO Television. And the Blogosphere lit up. For awhile on Thursday, according to Web tracker Bloogz, A Taste of the System was being linked more frequently than any other web page in English, save Google. I've received several hundred e-mails about this matter and the blog entry relating to it already has almost two hundred comments dangling from it. These seem to come in only two varieties: "Attaboy!" and "You're such an idiot for carrying drugs on a plane that you deserve whatever torments you've gotten or will get." (I hadn't realized that idiots might be exempted from constitutional protection - indeed, you'd think we need it worse - but about 20% of my correspondents seem to think otherwise.) All this fuss has been positive, I believe. (Though if there were any nasty federal lists I had made before, I've probably fixed that now...) Our rights have been slipping quietly away, one secret emergency regulation at a time. We need to either hop out of pot or wait meekly to be boiled in it. If my travails have inspired more discourse on the subject, then it's worth the additional risk. Still, I want to win this case in a way that will legally confine checked baggage searches to such targets as might actually endanger the aircraft. Achieving that objective will require a long row against a stiff current if my experience on Wednesday is any indication. -------------------- end quote -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 1 14:47:40 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:47:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] John Perry Barlow vs The Man (his request) Message-ID: <20050101144242.M77595@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> As a follow up, I suggest to spread the word on his request (from barlow.typepad.com/barlowfriendz/2004/12/the_windmill_ta.html#more) ---------------- ?"?I need to supplement my legal team and sharpen my research, and ?I would like your help in doing so. I'm looking for a criminal ?lawyer who is a confident litigator, a constitutional authority, ?and someone who is well-versed in the history and nuances of ?administrative search procedure. Any suggestions will be ?welcome, as will any research that might strengthen my case. If ?you're a lawyer or law professor yourself, I would appreciate ?your counsel. Even if you think it's a doomed mission, I'd like ?to hear from you (though I don't promise to listen)." ---------------- (contact him via his blog or at: barlow at eff.org ) Amara From jmcenanly at msn.com Sat Jan 1 15:30:11 2005 From: jmcenanly at msn.com (James McEnanly) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Carnivorous robot Message-ID: I have read the article http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/12/27/explorers.ecobot/index.html, and I seem to remember a story by Isaac Asimov, called That Thou Art Mindful of Him, concerning two robots who work on getting humans more accepting of robots. One of the things these robots do is to develop robot animals, including a bird which hunts down and eats insects. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 15:35:51 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:35:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <5844e22f0501010735555d6e44@mail.gmail.com> This is such a bioLudd argument, I'm baffled by its appearance. Of course this technology can and hence may well be turned to some nasty use by a sadistic killer. The very same argument applies to real AI. Are you quite against the development of AI as well? After all, a tweak here and there in a moral subroutine, and a real AI can kill many more humans than a roving metal mountain lion. Building a variety of digestive systems may give us insight into the human digestive system, or insight into how to improve it and thereby make ourselves better off. (BTW, does anyone know the relative efficiency of methanol-burning as compared with biological digestion?) But, aside from that knowledge-based reason to pursue more biologically realistic robots, I quite agree with the examples mentioned earlier by spike. Technological progress will and should march on to better society, and ultimately make life safer and more comfortable, carnivorous-robo-phobia and other little kid comic book nightmares aside. On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:58:11 +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > > > Yes, down with the obviously non-desirable self-powering robots! > > Not self-powering. That's something different. Down with carnivorous robots! > Long live methanol-guzzling self-refuelling robot chassis! > > > I hear those nasty hackers, computer viruses, and sociopaths can > > manipulate PCs to evil ends, as well. And don't forget sociopaths > > If PCs were cruising Predator drones you'd have a point. > > > running us down in automobiles, or rigging internal combustion engines > > to explode in public areas, and making use of that bullshit "lever" > > Yeah, and fire hazard due to burning giraffes. > > > invention to hurl rocks at us, and use that nasty setback "fire" to > > burn us. > > > > Good call, Hara! > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > > From rhanson at gmu.edu Sat Jan 1 17:19:18 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:19:18 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> At 12:03 AM 1/1/2005, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: >Happy New Year! Here's a little something to start off the year. It's a >holiday so you've got plenty of time to read, right? >http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/technical.html Well spoken. >Why should you pay attention to scientific controversies? Why graze upon >such sparse and rotten feed as the media offers, when there are so many >solid meals to be found in textbooks? Nothing you'll read as breaking news >will ever hold a candle to the sheer beauty of settled science. Yes! I have long tried to follow this strategy, and have advised others to do so as well. When people ask me for advise on what to read, I say just go into your local college bookstore, and browse the textbooks. If you can't spend all your reading time there in the store, well buy the most interesting ones and take them home to read. >I hold that everyone needs to learn at least one technical subject. >Physics; computer science; evolutionary biology; or Bayesian probability >theory, but something. Someone with no technical subjects under their belt >has no referent for what it means to "explain" something. Also great advise. To be fair, I would also say that everyone should read and understand one great novel, such as War and Peace. >Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you assigned >to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. This is your >Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your life. ... >Er, well, except that you could commit suicide when you turned five, >thereby preventing your Final Judgment from decreasing any further. Or if >we patch a new sin onto the utility function, enjoining against suicide, >you could flee from mystery, avoiding all situations in which you thought >you might not know everything. So much for that religion. Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 17:50:35 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:50:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Have the greens weighed in on this? http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/29/milk.cartons.ap/index.html "So much for the school milk carton Children drink more out of bottles, so schools switching Wednesday, December 29, 2004 Posted: 11:37 AM EST (1637 GMT) "Paper or plastic? Students prefer the latter when it comes to milk containers..." "(AP) -- Yet another familiar school-days object may be going the way of the inkwell and the slide rule. "Encouraged by a milk industry study that shows children drink more dairy when it comes in round plastic bottles, a growing number of schools are ditching those clumsy paper half-pint cartons many of us grew up with..." With the kids switching from relatively quickly biodegrading paper milk cartons to plastic bottles (which will be in the landfill for approximately an eternity) I am surprised no one has suggested legislation to encourage the old fashioned paper cartons. I am not a green, but even *I* can see this development is a big step backwards. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jan 1 18:01:07 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:01:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Putting the tsunami into context Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050101115749.01b31ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> So far I haven't seen any theological explanations of the deaths from the Christmas tsunami. No Imam, to my limited knowledge, has decided that this means Allah is royally pissed off with terrorists. I'm reminded, inevitably, of events 250 years ago (when I was just a lad), and Europe had a brief crisis of belief when the earthquake of Lisbon, on All Saints' Day, 1755, destroyed thirty thousand people in six minutes. (I see that latest data for the current horror is `Deaths Pass 140,000'.) Voltaire wrote: ---------- Les D?lices, November 24, 1755 This is indeed a cruel piece of natural philosophy! We shall find it difficult to discover how the laws of movement operate in such fearful disasters in the best of all possible worlds-- where a hundred thousand ants, our neighbours, are crushed in a second on our ant-heaps, half, dying undoubtedly in inexpressible agonies, beneath d?bris from which it was impossible to extricate them, families all over Europe reduced to beggary, and the fortunes of a hundred merchants -- Swiss, like yourself -- swallowed up in the ruins of Lisbon. What a game of chance human life is! What will the preachers say -- especially if the Palace of the Inquisition is left standing! I flatter myself that those reverend fathers, the Inquisitors, will have been crushed just like other people. That ought to teach men not to persecute men: for, while a few sanctimonious humbugs are burning a few fanatics, the earth opens and swallows up all alike. ================================ Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 1 18:55:54 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050101185554.85143.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Have the greens weighed in on this? Recyclable plastic. Yes, not all of it will be recycled, but a lot of it can be. And then there's biodegradeable plastic. From scerir at libero.it Sat Jan 1 20:01:31 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:01:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Putting the tsunami into context References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050101115749.01b31ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4f03c$b09fe770$c7b61b97@administxl09yj> From: "Damien Broderick" > a brief crisis of belief when the earthquake > of Lisbon, on All Saints' Day, 1755, destroyed > thirty thousand people in six minutes. http://nisee.berkeley.edu/images/servlet/KozakBrowse?eq=5234 It is an interesting, huge collection of views (many are imaginative) of that (9? Richter!) earthquake, followed by a tsunami, and then (!) by the famous fire of Lisboa. "Contemporary reports state that the earthquake lasted between three-and-a-half to six minutes, causing gigantic fissures five meters wide to rip apart the city centre. The survivors rushed to the open space of the docks for safety and watched as the water receded, revealing the sea floor, littered by lost cargo and old shipwrecks. Tens of minutes later an enormous tsunami engulfed the harbour, and the city downtown." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake It seems possible that the meaning of "saudade" (nostalgia, spleen) is deeply entangled with that disaster. Actually there is, also, an interesting, unespected meaning of "saudade". That is nostalgia of the future, not of the past. Or, to say it better, a nostalgia of what our life (and their city, Lisboa) could have been. And it is not. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 22:12:24 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:12:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <5844e22f0501010735555d6e44@mail.gmail.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> <5844e22f0501010735555d6e44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050101221223.GJ9221@leitl.org> On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 10:35:51AM -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > This is such a bioLudd argument, I'm baffled by its appearance. This is such a technofashist response, I'm baffled by its appearance. > Of course this technology can and hence may well be turned to some > nasty use by a sadistic killer. The very same argument applies to real What's the legitimate use for a robot that hunts and devours deer? Artificial predators to keep down herbivore population, great. Let's build them. System security being what it is, I can see armies of zombied robots making a nice bloody mess from a bunch of Boy Scouts. > AI. Are you quite against the development of AI as well? After all, a > tweak here and there in a moral subroutine, and a real AI can kill "Moral subroutine", eh. Maybe not even "3 Laws safe", heavensforbid. You probably find Minsky cutting edge, too. > many more humans than a roving metal mountain lion. Exactly. Which is why building a human-equivalent AI is an even dumber idea than a cannibal Terminator. > Building a variety of digestive systems may give us insight into the > human digestive system, or insight into how to improve it and thereby Nope, it's a bacterial fuel cell. > make ourselves better off. (BTW, does anyone know the relative Nope; that's uploading. > efficiency of methanol-burning as compared with biological digestion?) The point of methanol is that there are no trees brimming with methanol sap, neither animals with methanol blood coursing through their veins. (Also, methanol is cheap and ubiquitous). However, http://www.minatec.com/minatec2003/act_pdf/4_THURSDAY_Patillon.pdf says current DMFC prototypes have 85% efficiency. Compare that to http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/ATPEfficiency.htm Robots can be put into hibernation with basically zero metabolism. No such thing with higher animals. > But, aside from that knowledge-based reason to pursue more > biologically realistic robots, I quite agree with the examples Biologically inspired robotics is just great. Just, don't make it hunt, kill and digest live animals, and all is dandy. > mentioned earlier by spike. Technological progress will and should > march on to better society, and ultimately make life safer and more Technology per se has no ethics, its use has. You can use nuclear energy to move a mountain to prevent a catastrophe, or to nuke a city. I'm sure you can see a minor difference here. > comfortable, carnivorous-robo-phobia and other little kid comic book > nightmares aside. You must be reading different little kid comic books than me. In mine, CIA uses Hellfire missiles from Predator drones to assassinate people driving in cars in Yemen, and processes Afghani insurgents to shredded meat in nice PIR view, with high-speed guns from an airborne platform hovering outside of earshot. Judging from their movements, the poor fuckers never knew what hit them. Oh yeah, if you're so fond of using animals for fuel I'm sure this one http://www.foresight.org/NanoRev/Ecophagy.html will give you a stiffy. Enjoy. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 00:12:05 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:12:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities Message-ID: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Saturday, 01 January 2005 Hello all: After soliciting suggestions from both lists late last year, I did a little research of my own. Below find a list of "transhumanist" themed charities. I admit to using a vague term. It might mean at most a list of charities that most self-described transhumanists would consider worthy beneficiaries. Some examples of rejected charities follow at the list's end.If you've more suggestions, please post them back to the list. Charities * Future Studies o ~ Foundation for the Future o ~ Foresight Institute * Life Extension o ~ Methuselah Mouse Prize o ~ Immortality Institute * Intelligence Increase o ~ Singularity Institute * Other o ~ WTA o ~ Extropy Institute o ~ TV 2005 Scholarship Fund * Social Studies o Ethics + ~ Center for Responsible Nanotechnology o Microfinance + ~ Microcredit Summit Campaign + ~ Grameen Foundation USA o Your Rights Online + ~ Creative Commons + ~ Electronic Frontier Foundation * Space Migration o Advocacy + ~ National Space Society + Planetary Society + Mars Society o History + ~ Saturn V Restoration o Prizes + ~ Elevator 2010 + ~ X-Prize Foundation * REJECTED o Overly Political + IEET + American Libertarian Party + Free State Project + Cato Institute o Business-related or sponsored + Linden Lab + Sourceforge o Technophobic + Greenpeace + Most Environmental Groups (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's not technophobic?) o Local + America's Prize (Saturn V Restoration exempted for its role in humanity's first lunar landing) o No >H Character + International Red Cross -- Jay Dugger http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From reason at longevitymeme.org Sun Jan 2 00:27:51 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:27:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Jay Dugger > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 4:12 PM > + Most Environmental Groups > (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's > not technophobic?) http://www.viridiandesign.org/ More of an umbrella and aggressively roving concept than anything else, but might fit the bill. Only selectively technophobic, I think. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From matus at matus1976.com Sun Jan 2 04:05:40 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:05:40 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c4f080$563c9eb0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> I suggest www.lifeboat.com for either 'future studies' or 'space migration' "The Lifeboat Foundation is a nonprofit, nongovernmental organization, dedicated to providing solutions that will safeguard humanity from the growing threat of terrorism and technological cataclysm. This humanitarian organization is pursuing all possible options, including self-sustaining technologies using AI and nanotechnology, with an emphasis on self-contained space arks." Michael > Charities > > * Future Studies > o ~ Foundation for the Future > o ~ Foresight Institute > * Life Extension > o ~ Methuselah Mouse Prize > o ~ Immortality Institute > * Intelligence Increase > o ~ Singularity Institute > * Other > o ~ WTA > o ~ Extropy Institute > o ~ TV 2005 Scholarship Fund > > * Social Studies > o Ethics > + ~ Center for Responsible Nanotechnology > > o Microfinance > + ~ Microcredit Summit Campaign > > + ~ Grameen Foundation USA > > o Your Rights Online > + ~ Creative Commons > + ~ Electronic Frontier Foundation > * Space Migration > o Advocacy > + ~ National Space Society > + Planetary Society > + Mars Society > o History > + ~ Saturn V Restoration > > o Prizes > + ~ Elevator 2010 > > + ~ X-Prize Foundation > * REJECTED > o Overly Political > + IEET > + American Libertarian Party > + Free State Project > + Cato Institute > o Business-related or sponsored > + Linden Lab > + Sourceforge > o Technophobic > + Greenpeace > + Most Environmental Groups > (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's > not technophobic?) > o Local > + America's Prize > (Saturn V Restoration exempted for its role in > humanity's first lunar landing) > o No >H Character > + International Red Cross > -- > Jay Dugger > http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 04:11:52 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:11:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <000901c4f080$563c9eb0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> References: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> <000901c4f080$563c9eb0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <5366105b0501012011368b7c@mail.gmail.com> I don't yet know about these folks, but their website brought up a whole class of charities I'd neglected: charities that take computer time. Starting with folding at home, nano at home (which seems dead), http://www.grid.org/projects/, the GIMPS, and other distributed computing projects. Suggestions welcome. On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:05:40 -0500, Matus wrote: > I suggest www.lifeboat.com for either 'future studies' or 'space > migration' > -- Jay Dugger http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From harara at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 2 04:27:42 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 20:27:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202322.02936480@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> How Newtonian. 1 ml of air has 10^19 molecules, and all we know are a few statistical values..... When you start with quantum theory and then recall the sensitvities in chaos, knowing probablities as described is obviously unknowable. Only a saint would think otherwise..... (Saint Laputa?) >>Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you >>assigned to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. >>This is your Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your life. > >Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign >them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about >them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 2 04:29:36 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 20:29:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202807.02968f98@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I expect the same plastic as in pop bottles, every part of which is totally recyclable, not done cuz source materials are so cheap. >With the kids switching from relatively quickly biodegrading >paper milk cartons to plastic bottles (which will be in the >landfill for approximately an eternity) I am surprised no >one has suggested legislation to encourage the old fashioned >paper cartons. > >I am not a green, but even *I* can see this development is a >big step backwards. > >spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Sun Jan 2 04:55:50 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:55:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <41D77ED6.4020400@pobox.com> Robin Hanson wrote: > At 12:03 AM 1/1/2005, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > >> Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you >> assigned to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. >> This is your Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your >> life. ... >> Er, well, except that you could commit suicide when you turned five, >> thereby preventing your Final Judgment from decreasing any further. Or >> if we patch a new sin onto the utility function, enjoining against >> suicide, you could flee from mystery, avoiding all situations in which >> you thought you might not know everything. So much for that religion. > > Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign > them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about > them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. (thinks) All events that actually happen, everywhere in the (any?) universe... hm. That sounds fair. But what about conditional probabilities? In what order is the Judged soul's judgment over all events extrapolated? In a single life, the linear ordering is obvious, even when we evaluate the conditional likelihood of other possible outcomes for any single branch. If we are to evaluate all events in the universe, how do we compute the joint probability of all those events together? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 2 11:07:45 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:07:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] will the sun rise? Message-ID: <20050102110130.M72364@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Eugen Leitl: >Sun is harder because if you trap the radiation it will heat up >and bloat up and simultaneously reduce the fusion rate. Perhaps >you can blow off chunks of photosphere, by periodic/asymmetric >feedback of the solar output. >I don't see how this is a controlled disassembly process, though. >Ditto Jupiter. It seems to me that the convection process (usually assumed in the outer layers of a main sequence star) for transporting energy would make star-lifting very hard to control. I wonder if anyone has studied a scenario of asymmetric p-p chain(s) nucleosynthesis in a main sequence star like our Sun. In the later stages of a star's life, asymmetric burning is a standard feature in its evolution. The unprocessed hydrogen in a star's shell ignites when the star's helium core contracts, and this swells the star into a giant. The people who have written the old nucleosynthesis code (going back to the 1950s) usually assume spherical symmetry for main sequence stellar evolution and even with that, it was a hard problem because you have four first-order partial differential equations (PDEs) : (not writing out the equations.. see: http://www.amara.com/ftpstuff/fusionzone.txt) 1) 2) 3) 4) (stable layer- radiative) (unstable layer- convective) and four constitutive equations: A) B) C) D) Because our PDE's, we need four boundary conditions - Two are imposed at the center, and two are applied at the surface. If the star is in a steady state, and close to thermal equilibrium, then the quantities should depend on the density, temperature and chemical composition of the star, where all of them are functions of the radius r. If any of the equations (say, energy generation) are asymmetric, then our variables should track all of the three dimensional spatial variables too. In the 'old' days, the problem was computationally intractable, but today, it should be doable. Something along these lines was studied in a simulation of massive late evolution stars on their way to supernova. The simulation looked at off-center triggering of a star going supernova, which sent a very asymmetrical blob of hot material rising up through the star. At the point where the bubble surfaces, outer stellar layers are strongly accelerated, fly over the star surfaces, and then come together on the opposite side of the star. That focus then forms the center of the resulting explosition (November 2004, Physics Today :Kadanoff: Computational Scenarios, pg. 10) The bubble was started in just a slightly off-center position, but in a spherically symmetrical environment. -------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0405162 From: Alan C. Calder [view email] Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:27:35 GMT (306kb) Type Ia Supernovae: An Asymmetric Deflagration Model Authors: A. C. Calder, T. Plewa, N. Vladimirova, D. Q. Lamb, J. W. Truran Comments: 11 pages, 4 figures, some figures degraded to reduce size. Submitted to Astrophysical Journal Letters We present the first high-resolution three-dimensional simulations of the deflagration phase of Type Ia supernovae that treat the entire massive white dwarf. We report the results of simulations in which ignition of the nuclear burning occurs slightly off-center. The subsequent evolution of the nuclear burning is surprisingly asymmetric with a growing bubble of hot ash rapidly rising to the stellar surface. Upon reaching the surface, the mass of burned material is $\approx 0.075 M_\sun$ and the kinetic energy is $4.3 \times 10^{49}$ ergs. The velocity of the top of the rising bubble approaches 8000 km s$^{-1}$. The amount of the asymmetry found in the model offers a natural explanation for the observed diversity in Type Ia supernovae. Our study strongly disfavors the classic central-ignition pure deflagration scenario by showing that the result is highly sensitive to details of the initial conditions. -------------------------------------------------------------- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 2 11:36:37 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:36:37 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians Message-ID: <20050102113328.M79541@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky sentience at pobox.com : >If we are to evaluate all events in the universe, how do we >compute the joint probability of all those events together? I'm looking forward to Robin's answer on this, but I think that either it doesn't matter what order you compute the joint probability, or else you calculate it based on what you know of the importance of the parameters. "In a continuous multiparameter situations, there is no hope for a single, unique "non-informative prior", appropriate for all the inference problems within a given model. To avoid having the prior dominating the posterior for _some_ function theta of interest, the prior has to depend not only on the model, but also on the parameter of interest or, more generally, on some notion of the order of importance of the parameters." Jose Bernardo, Adrian Smith, _Bayesian Theory_, Wiley, 2000, pg. 366. Perhaps you've seen the papers where cosmologists are estimating parameters from cosmic microwave background measurements. The next paper, in particular, shows in detail how to constrain the parameters on a grid using the Markov Chain Monte Carlo Methods, which cuts down the computations considerably. Amara Nelson, Christensen, Rate Meyer, Lloyd Knox, and Ben Luey (2001), "Bayesian methods for cosmological parameter estimation from cosmic microwave background measurements", Class. Quantum Grav. 18, 2677-2688. Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 2 16:39:02 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:39:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Latviju Dainas: Singing through History Message-ID: <20050102163220.M42866@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> A discussion of a few things Latvian-related, which I think are interesting. Latviju Dainas New Years Day, yesterday, I opened a box of books that have been sealed since 1994, 12 yellowed and dusty hardback books, stored with the rest of my boxes because I had no bookshelf space and because they were in a language that I couldn't understand very well. Yet, I have moved these particular books through three countries and six residences. So then why have I kept such a box? The books are a keepsake from my father: 12 volumes of _Latviesu Tautas Dziesmas_ (Chansons Populaires Lettonnes), Imanta Publishers, Copenhagen, 1952-1956, ed. A. Svabe, K. Straubergs and E. Hauzenberga-Sturma. I knew these books were special because Dad used to read from the books at bedtime to my sisters and I when we were little, but I didn't know how special were the books, until I spent some time yesterday learning about them from other books at home and on the Internet. The Dainis form a sacred cultural record. My twelve volumes contain a quarter of a million folk songs: "Dainas", ancient song texts originally intended to be sung, passed down over the millennia by oral tradition, and songs that relate loosely weave the fabric of Latvian values, philosophy, and way of life. The Dainas comprise one of the largest body of oral literature in the world (1). Comparable to the Dainas outside of the Baltic, are perhaps only those found in ancient Mesopotamia. How old are the Dainas? One scholar, Robert Payne, in "The Green Linden, Selected Lithuanian Folk-songs", Voyages Press, N.Y., 1964, wrote: "The dainas...represent a form of poetry as ancient as anything on this earth.... They have a beauty and pure primitive splendor above anything I know in Western literature, except the early songs of the Greek Islanders. They seem to have been written at the morning of the world, and the dew is still on them." Hermanis Rathfelders, in Acta Baltica, wrote that the Latvian Dainas were extremely ancient, preceding the milling of grain, so that the mythological and astronomical Dainas may reach back many thousands of years in time. A number of lines in the Sumerian-Akkadian Agushaya Hymn bear strong similarity to texts found nearly unaltered in the Latvian Dainas. Another of the Dainas speaks of "ice hills" - perhaps glaciers of the most recent glacial period - so that the Dainas may be among the oldest human records. "Latvju Dainas" contain not only song texts, but also description of customs, games, riddles, proverbs, fairy tales, legends, anecdotes, dances, magic spells, and other folk traditions. The Dainas depict every aspect of the ancient Latvian life; that is, their mythology (2): coordinating the person with the cycle of his/her own life, with the environment in which he/she's living, and with his/her society. As an example of mythology in the Joseph Campbell sense, the interpretation of the Dainas requires metaphors and the recognition of symbols. Ancient Latvian Religion If you guessed by now that the ancient religion of the Latvians was paganistic, pantheistic and polytheistic, then you would be right. The Latvians have traditionally been an agricultural society, and the ancients thought that the highest aim of human life was to live in harmony with Nature and other members of society. They maintained that all natural phenomena are intricately dependent on each other and that social interactions cannot be isolated from their physical counterparts in an inseparable web of dynamic relationships. Every person holds their own god(s); A person who holds or possesses Dievs (God) according to the ancient Latvian tradition, is a Dievturis. Therefore, a Dievturis, is literally a God-keeper or possessor. Personal worth and integrity was expressed in terms of possessing the many virtues, and there was no need for metaphors as sin, atonement or redemption. The Dainas stress the awe, enchantment and inexplicable mystery of 'existence'. Moreover, according to the ancient Latvians, our well-being is not determined by its inherent and immutable absoluteness, but our culturally determined response to it. In addition, they viewed the world and the universe as value-neutral. (3) >From (3) we learn: "Although officially christianized in the thirteenth century, the ancient Latvians did not accept Christianity until the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries ? and then only superficially. The main reason for this was the non-acceptance of the indigenous population as equals by the ruling German nobility. The language used in the churches for many centuries was either Latin or German and the Latvians could not understand what was being preached. These factors, along with the many punitive acts inflicted by the ruling German landowners, forced the indigenous population to keep their old traditions, deities and basic social structure. The cement for this continuity was the Dainas. With their strict metric and tonic structure, the Latvian folk songs helped memorization and prevented unchecked substitution of new words and phrases." [My note: Baltic song festivals were also key to the success of the Baltic people in keeping their culture during the 50 years of Soviet occupation. See: http://www.amara.com/Independence/LestWeForget.html ] Latvian Language With such an ancient oral tradition, do the Latvians have an ancient written language too? The answer is yes. Lithuanian and Latvian are the oldest Indo-European tongues, living or dead, and the some linguists have said (4) that Sanskrit, Latin and ancient Greek derive from them. Kaulins suggested (4) that the "original" Indo-European language can be reconstruced in near entirety from the current Latvian language. The Latvian language is spoken by about 1.5 million inhabitants of Latvia, by several hundred thousand Latvians in other former Soviet republics, and elsewhere, and by several hundred thousand WWII refugees (my father, for example) and their descendants all over the world. I didn't get very far in my Latvian language studies when I finally found a Latvian teacher in 1995 in Palo Alto, because German language and Germany move preparations suddenly became a high priority. I wrote some things about the Latvian language on my web page though: http://www.amara.com/aboutme/latvian.html#language and I even try to sing: http://www.amara.com/aboutme/latdidley.html References ----------------- (1) Latvia - Cabinet of Folksongs - as a Part of the Archives of Latvian Folklore http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=4842&URL_DO=DO_TOPI C&URL_SECTION=201.html (2) Mythology for Transhumans (Graps) http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/318/ (3) Ancient Latvian Religion http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_3_06.htm (4) Kaulins, Andis, _The Baltic: Origain of the Indo-European Languages and Peoples_, quoted in: _Latvian Language_ by Antonia Millers, Echo Publishers, Menlo Park, California, 1979, pg. 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Other fun links ---------------------------------------------------------------- Nera?tna?s (shameless, naughty, erotic, or bawdy) Dainas http://faculty.stcc.edu/zagarins/sveiks/2002/AABS/AVB_doctoral_thesis/1 1.htm Introduction on the web page: "In his description of a Kurland wedding in 1649 Paul Einhorn in Historia Lettica is horrified: "They sing such unchaste, debauched, and profligate (nesk?i?stas, netiklas un vieglpra?ti?gas) songs day and night without stopping that even Satan himself couldn?t conceive of anything more immoral and shameless (nesk?i?stas, bezkauni?gas). His descriptions are informative, though his opinion is that Latvian peasants are uncouth savages. He describes mumming and Yule log evening in Reformatio Gentis Letticae in Ducatu Curlandiae (1636) as being a shameless celebration with eating, drinking, dancing, jumping, shouting, and making terrible noise going from one house to another." ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Ancient Latvian Festivals http://theoldpath.com/website/iceheart/page4.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- Linguistics and Poetics of Latvian Folksongs Edited by Vaira Vikis-Freibergs http://www.mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=848 Introduction on the web page: Latvian folk songs or dainas make up one of the largest bodies of oral literature in the world. Vaira Vikis-Freibergs has assembled a distinguished group of scholars from eight countries who apply a broad spectrum of research approaches to the study of dainas. The result, Linguistics and Poetics of Latvian Folksongs, is a balanced overview of this active field of inquiry. Note: Vaira Vikis-Freiberga (proper feminine Latvian names always have 'a' at the end) was elected in 1999 as the president of Latvia, and she is one very remarkable lady: http://womenshistory.about.com/od/vikefreiberga/ A biography of Vi?k,e-Freiberga: _In the Name of Freedom_ http://www.balticshop.com/item.msql?item=2471&cat=0301&title=Book s_About_Latvia ---------------------------------------------------------------- A Fantastic Closet [From the Toronto-based Latvian-English newletter: http://www.torontozinas.com/index.php?id=arh&nr=41#AR6] http://www.dainuskapis.lv "In honour of the Latvian folk song collector Krisjanis Barons, the virtual dainu skapis (folk song closet) was officially unveiled. Now anyone can scan through thousands of Latvian folk song verses - from the comfort of their own home. Looking for a verse on the sun? Enter the word "saule" and in .011 seconds you'll see 970 "dainas" featuring the word sun! How about cows? Write in "govs" and get 44 verses about cows! Many verses are also accompanied by scanned in verses hand-written by K. Barons. Krisjanis Barons started collecting dainas at the end of the 19th century. One hundred years later in 1994, professor Imants Freibergs started inputting the dainas into a database - which is now accessible by anyone with Internet access. To date, the system contains 35,000 verses, 64,000 variants and 119,000 variations. It will take another two years until all the dainas have been placed in the "closet". In addition, the real closet contains thousands of never-published verses (also many which Barons considered unacceptable - but which now we'll at least be able to view)." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Happy Sunday... Amara www.amara.com From rhanson at gmu.edu Sun Jan 2 19:09:02 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:09:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202322.02936480@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202322.02936480@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050102124110.02ae3d00@mail.gmu.edu> I responded to Eliezer S. Yudkowsky >>Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you >>assigned to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. >>This is your Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your life. ... > >Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign >them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about >them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. Hara Ra responded to me: >How Newtonian. 1 ml of air has 10^19 molecules, and all we know are a few >statistical values..... When you start with quantum theory and then recall >the sensitvities in chaos, knowing probablities as described is obviously >unknowable. Only a saint would think otherwise..... (Saint Laputa?) On reflection, all we really need is for Saint Laplace to extrapolate what probability you would have assigned to all the events you could possibly have observed during your lifetime. This is of course still unreasonably large. Eliezer responded: >All events that actually happen, everywhere in the (any?) universe... >hm. That sounds fair. But what about conditional probabilities? In what >order is the Judged soul's judgment over all events extrapolated? In a >single life, the linear ordering is obvious, even when we evaluate the >conditional likelihood of other possible outcomes for any single >branch. If we are to evaluate all events in the universe, how do we >compute the joint probability of all those events together? Good question. .... (think) .... OK, how about this. Saint Laplace could randomly pick some different set of key choices that you might have made in your life, and then extrapolate your actual probability assigning style from your actual life to this other set of choices. You'd be judged by this alternate probability. Or perhaps he could sample a thousand such alternative lives, and give you an average score over them, reducing your risk at the cost of more computation. If these key choices include the choices that you might have made to manipulate your final score, by limiting the amount of data you get, then it avoids that problem. But if these key choices include when you actually choose your probability assigning style, it wouldn't give you an incentive to make that choice well. So it comes down to whether Saint Laplace can distinguish probability assigning style choices from choices about how much data to get. By the way, I've been reading this related edited volume: Foundations of Bayesianism, ed. D. Cornfield and Jon Williamson, Kluwer, 2001. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 2 20:13:38 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:13:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth to collapse into the resulting cavities. spike From reason at longevitymeme.org Sun Jan 2 20:29:01 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:29:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] will the sun rise? In-Reply-To: <20050102110130.M72364@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Eugen Leitl: > >Sun is harder because if you trap the radiation it will heat up > >and bloat up and simultaneously reduce the fusion rate. Perhaps > >you can blow off chunks of photosphere, by periodic/asymmetric > >feedback of the solar output. > > >I don't see how this is a controlled disassembly process, though. > >Ditto Jupiter. > > It seems to me that the convection process (usually assumed in > the outer layers of a main sequence star) for transporting energy > would make star-lifting very hard to control. I wrote and maintained stellar modelling code a decade ago; pretty standard Henyey iterative stuff that could be used to generate a model of star B when starting from star A provided they weren't too different. This was used to model the evolution of a star by tweaking metallicities in successive models to reflect increasing age. One of the items I recall being a problem was hacking in a way of adding mass loss through stellar wind; this was very significant to the overall evolution in Pop III stars. The onion layering in the model was done in such a way as to try and keep the delta between variables in adjacent layers as low as possible. This meant that half of the onion layers in the model were in the very outer layers, where variables change greatly over a very small fraction of the stellar radius. Any radical changes to the outer layers caused great instability in the model, and finding a solution that both kept it happy and was justifiable in terms of the physics was quite hard. The other problem was core ignition events - about half of the evolutionary sequences couldn't be convinced to iterate past that point, and getting the thing past the first core ignition was a real art. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 2 20:40:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:40:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:13 PM 1/2/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: >My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. This is precisely the kind of malicious anti-capitalist rumor that Michael Crichton warns us against in his new study of the evil impact of green agitators and global `warming' fanatics. In fact, as close study of his textbook STATE OF FEAR proves, this tsunami was brought about deliberately by so-called `greens' in order to foster sales of Crichton's book and demonstrate how effective these malevolent brutes can be in pursuit of their incomprehensible agenda. Damien Broderick From siproj at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 20:46:52 2005 From: siproj at gmail.com (_ _) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:46:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: Hello: Exxon/Mobil has been removing huge quantities of natural gas from Aceh. (Reputed to be the third of the total worldwide production for LNG). So the tsunami in part may have been induced by mineral extraction in the area. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=16775 Note the coast line shift etc. If Exxon/Mobil were implicated for blame in the case of this tsunami then the ramifications to offshore extraction of petroleum and natural gas are serious. That is a big if. As for litigation. Well I think the price of that companies stock could get pressured if people start thinking in that way. On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:13:38 -0800, spike wrote: > Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting > the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets > responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake > that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, > which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low > standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global > temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How > about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates > to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. > Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths > of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed > location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, > My father in law has suggested > that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > to collapse into the resulting cavities. spike -- siproj at rci.ripco.com Creator of alt.inventors and keeper of the Official alt.inventors FAQ despite what some alt.config sysadmin/waste of time/bandwidth actions. From nedlt at yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 21:54:58 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:54:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] book: The End Of Faith In-Reply-To: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050102215458.30109.qmail@web61201.mail.yahoo.com> Sam Harris, in The End Of Faith, doesn't limit himself to opposing religious fanaticism, but also the secular fanaticism of Noam Chomsky. Hariis thinks even moderate religiosity can be rather pernicious too, as it feeds religious fanaticism and terrorism: http://www.samharris.org/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 2 22:46:39 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:46:39 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] book: The End Of Faith In-Reply-To: <20050102215458.30109.qmail@web61201.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <20050102215458.30109.qmail@web61201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102164510.01a95c08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >Sam Harris, in The End Of Faith >http://www.samharris.org/ Looks bloody good, from the excerpts and amazon interview. Sample: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/542154/104-1782834-9937530 < The kind of intolerance of faith that I am advocating in my book is not the intolerance that gave us the gulag. It is conversational intolerance. When people make outlandish claims, without evidence, we stop listening to them--except on matters of faith. I am arguing that we can no longer afford to give faith a pass in this way. Bad beliefs should be criticized wherever they appear in our discourse--in physics, in medicine, and on matters of ethics and spirituality as well. The President of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. Now, if he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ludicrous or more offensive. > Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 3 00:41:17 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101221223.GJ9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050103004117.69657.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 10:35:51AM -0500, Jeff > Medina wrote: > > This is such a bioLudd argument, I'm baffled by > its appearance. > > This is such a technofashist response, I'm baffled > by its appearance. On the Extro list? We tend to lean towards techno-optimism and away from neoluddism of all sorts. Consider: we reject the Precautionary Principle - which your email seems to embrace - and accept the Proactionary Principle - which you seem to argue against. > Biologically inspired robotics is just great. Just, > don't make it hunt, kill > and digest live animals, and all is dandy. What about animals in hibernation? Or cryo-preserved? Or merely asleep? To different degrees of sensors, those all seem to be dead. (Granted, "asleep" is easy to distinguish, but not all robots will necessarily have means to tell.) From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 07:19:55 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:19:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] BusinessWeek: Asia Is Stem Cell Central Message-ID: <20050103071955.16475.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_02/b3915052.htm JANUARY 10, 2005 ? Editions:function changeRegion (regionVal) { setRegionCookie(regionVal, window.country); if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("MSIE") != -1 & navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mac") != -1) { //qChar = (self.location.href.indexOf("?") == -1 ? "?" : ""); self.location.replace(self.location.href); } else { location.reload(); } return false;}function makeRegionObj (displayName, regionVal) { this.displayName = displayName; this.regionVal = regionVal;}regions = new Array ();regions[regions.length] = new makeRegionObj ("N. America", "bw");regions[regions.length] = new makeRegionObj ("Europe", "bw_eu");regions[regions.length] = new makeRegionObj ("Asia", "bw_as");for (i = 0; i '); } else { document.write (''); } document.write (regions[i].displayName); if (regions[i].regionVal == window.region) { document.write (''); } else { document.write (''); } document.write (' | ');} N. America | Europe | Asia | Edition Preference if (!window.adOb) document.write('');var param = "pagepos=16&adsize=180x150&chan=mz" + mkAdVar("sub") + mkAdVar("site") + mkAdVar("editExclude") + mkAdVar("rnd");writeAd(param, "general_16.htm", "PP16", 1, 1, true); STORY TOOLS Printer-Friendly Version E-Mail This Story Graphic: The Asian Alternative ASIAN BUSINESS Asia Is Stem Cell Central The Tsunami's Tragic Toll Commentary: This Is Not Your Grandfather's India ?');//--> Find More Stories Like This ASIAN BUSINESS Asia Is Stem Cell Central Singapore and others are racing to grab the lead in a promising field How do you follow up on Dolly the Sheep? For Alan Colman, an English biochemist and a leader of the British team that created the first cloned mammal in 1997, the answer was to abandon the cold moors, heaths, and braes of Scotland for steamy Singapore.if (!window.adOb) document.write(''); if (!adOb.commonAdVars) setAdProps("mz", "", false);writeAd(adOb.pp9, "mz_general_9.htm", "PP9", 1, 1);Advertisementon error resume nextplugin=(IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.6"))) But it wasn't the tropical weather that drew Colman. Instead, the 56-year-old scientist chose the city-state because of its tolerant climate for research using embryonic stem cells. Not yet assigned specific roles in the body, these cells are like blank slates that scientists hope can be used to treat many different diseases. But because the cells are taken from human embryos, funding for such research has been restricted in the U.S. since 2001. Singapore, by contrast, is creating ``a center of excellence in stem cell research,'' Colman says, and there's plenty of funding there, too. That's part of Singapore's effort to build a biotech industry. The government has established a $600 million fund to invest in startups engaged in research on stem cells and other cutting-edge life-sciences projects. Last year, Singapore opened Biopolis, a 2 million-square-foot complex of laboratories and offices devoted to such research. So far, Singapore has ponied up $22 million for ES Cell International, the Biopolis-based company where Colman has worked as chief scientific officer since 2002. ES today owns six stem-cell lines (a line is a group of identical cells that come from the same embryo) and is focusing on developing treatments for diabetes. ``Here, there's huge support,'' says Robert Klupacs, ES Cell's chief executive officer. ``ASTONISHING'' PROGRESS Singapore isn't the only country in the region trying to profit from the U.S. restrictions. Australia, China, India, Japan, and South Korea all see stem cell research as a way to get ahead in biotech. The progress the Asians have made is ``astonishing,'' says Robert A. Goldstein, chief scientific officer at New York-based Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation International, which has teamed up with Singapore in funding ES Cell's efforts to find a cure for the disease. Many governments have been asking themselves: ``Since the U.S. doesn't seem to be taking a lead role, why don't we?'' observes Goldstein. What has created this opportunity? President George W. Bush put drastic restraints on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research in the U.S. three years ago because many religious conservatives oppose use of the cells, which often come from embryos left over after in-vitro fertilization. Given the different religious traditions of Asia, the debate isn't as heated. ``We don't have an ethical roadblock,'' says D. Balasubramanian, chairman of the Indian government's stem cell task force. Despite the progress the Asians have made, many scientists say they remain years away from developing real therapies using stem cells. Nonetheless, there is anecdotal evidence of early progress. A Chinese lab is looking into using stem cells to treat amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), or Lou Gehrig's disease. And in October researchers at Korea's Chosun University said they had transplanted stem cells into a 37-year-old woman suffering from a spinal cord injury, partially restoring her ability to walk -- though there has been no independent confirmation of this claim. ``We didn't expect the patient to recover like this,'' says Chosun professor Song Chang Hun. ``It's almost like a miracle.'' Some governments have focused on importing talent. China, for instance, has recruited scientists from top universities in the U.S. to run research centers on the mainland. And in Singapore, 32-year-old Soren M?ller Bested, a self-described ``gene jockey'' from Denmark, is now the chief technology officer for Cordlife, a company that focuses on preserving and researching stem cells found in human umbilical cords. Bested and others involved in stem-cell work say the government's unflagging support gives confidence to scientists worried about shifting political winds. ``You won't find out overnight that what you've been working on for five years has been banned,'' he says. Still, Asian countries are far from assured of leading the way in stem cells over the long term. One big question is whether local universities can produce enough top-notch researchers, since relying on imported scientists won't work in the long run. Another concern is what some critics see as a lax approach to oversight and ethics in some labs, including the use of stem cells drawn from fetuses aborted in the second trimester in China. More worrisome for the Asians is the growth in alternative sources of funding for stem cell research in the U.S. While Bush's reelection ensured that the National Institutes of Health will not be opening its coffers to U.S.-based researchers in embryonic stem cells, on Election Day voters in California approved Proposition 71, which will provide $300 million a year to scientists conducting such research in the state. That will make it harder for the Asians to attract top scientists. Seoul, for instance, has dished out a total of just $27 million over the past two years in public money for stem cell research. Funding in Singapore and other countries also pales in comparison to what California plans to spend. ``There's going to be a very impressive network'' in California, says Randy Schekman, a professor of cell and developmental biology at the University of California at Berkeley and an adviser to the Singapore government. While he admires the ``gung ho attitude'' of Singaporean policymakers, Schekman says Proposition 71's basketload of money could overwhelm what the Asians can offer. ``We are going to attract an awful lot of people who will be eager to move'' to the Golden State, says Schekman. California may not be the only worry. Britain has a relatively liberal policy toward stem cell research and may soon kick-start funding for it. And at least five other U.S. states are looking to fund stem cell research, too. Even some of Asia's most prominent boosters concede that the region will have a tough time matching what the Americans have to spend. Singapore is building a scientific community, but currently ``it's sub-optimal,'' says Colman. ``The people who wrote Prop 71 are trying to recruit people right now. And when those top people go, so will their teams.'' The Asians insist they're still in the running, and that increased funding for research -- wherever it takes place -- will ultimately help everyone in the field. ``I don't think any one country can monopolize stem cell research,'' says Susan Lim, chairman of Stem Cell Technologies, a Singapore startup focusing on ways to extract adult stem cells from fat tissue. California's research effort will attract attention, but ``Korea, Singapore, and China will be even more committed to pursuing it,'' says Hwang Woo Suk, a researcher at Seoul National University. Now that they have a strong foothold, the Asians aren't about to give up, even as the climate for stem cell research improves elsewhere. By Bruce Einhorn in Singapore, with Jennifer Veale in Seoul and Manjeet Kripalani in Bombay La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Mon Jan 3 10:43:22 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:43:22 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Danger of 'Google History' Message-ID: <20050103103507.M68643@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/03/28/news-levine.php March 14 -20, 2003 The Danger of Google History in a Time of War Or ?Dennis Prager called me a liar? by Mark LeVine Some quotes from the article: <<"Since I can?t find it on Google, you?re obviously lying," Mr. Prager informed me?and his listeners?as we returned from a commercial.>> <> <>I <> <> From hemm at openlink.com.br Mon Jan 3 12:13:19 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:13:19 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? References: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <01d301c4f18d$9ca3f4d0$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Man... I love this list :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:13 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? > Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting > the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets > responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake > that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, > which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low > standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global > temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How > about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates > to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. > Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths > of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed > location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, > resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested > that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > to collapse into the resulting cavities. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 15:57:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:57:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050103155719.72073.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting > the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets > responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake > that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, > which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low > standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global > temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How > about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates > to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. > Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths > of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed > location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, > resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested > that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > to collapse into the resulting cavities. The main problem being that that area is known for some of the biggest earthquakes in history, including the Krakatoa eruption (which was just the latest). If a driver has totalled three cars in the past, you can't blame Jeep because it happened to manufacture the driver's latest death-sled. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 16:20:53 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:20:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050103162053.75709.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 12:13 PM 1/2/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: > > >My father in law has suggested > >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > >to collapse into the resulting cavities. > > This is precisely the kind of malicious anti-capitalist rumor that > Michael Crichton warns us against in his new study of the evil > impact of green agitators and global `warming' fanatics. In fact, > as close study of his textbook STATE OF FEAR proves, this tsunami > was brought about deliberately by so-called `greens' in order to > foster sales of Crichton's book and demonstrate how effective > these malevolent brutes can be in pursuit of their incomprehensible > agenda. Don't you realize that the global banking/oil conspiracy is controlled from Pellucidar, the center of the Earth, and these earthquakes are the result of underground real estate development in the salt domes vacated by oil? I would've thought your psychics would have told you that.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 16:26:55 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:26:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050103162655.45820.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Excuse me, but the FSP is NOT a political group, it is a migration group, so you apparently have not been doing sufficient research. The FSP does not endorse or support any candidate, party, legislation, or issue. I note that all your rejected groups for 'too political' are libertarian or liberty-leaning groups. --- Jay Dugger wrote: > Saturday, 01 January 2005 > > Hello all: > > After soliciting suggestions from both lists late last year, I > did a little research of my own. Below find a list of "transhumanist" > themed charities. I admit to using a vague term. It might mean at > most > a list of charities that most self-described transhumanists would > consider worthy beneficiaries. Some examples of rejected charities > follow at the list's end.If you've more suggestions, please post them > back to the list. > > Charities > > * Future Studies > o ~ Foundation for the Future > > o ~ Foresight Institute > * Life Extension > o ~ Methuselah Mouse Prize > o ~ Immortality Institute > * Intelligence Increase > o ~ Singularity Institute > * Other > o ~ WTA > o ~ Extropy Institute > o ~ TV 2005 Scholarship Fund > > * Social Studies > o Ethics > + ~ Center for Responsible Nanotechnology > > o Microfinance > + ~ Microcredit Summit Campaign > > + ~ Grameen Foundation USA > > o Your Rights Online > + ~ Creative Commons > > + ~ Electronic Frontier Foundation > > * Space Migration > o Advocacy > + ~ National Space Society > + Planetary Society > + Mars Society > o History > + ~ Saturn V Restoration > > > o Prizes > + ~ Elevator 2010 > > + ~ X-Prize Foundation > * REJECTED > o Overly Political > + IEET > + American Libertarian Party > + Free State Project > + Cato Institute > o Business-related or sponsored > + Linden Lab > + Sourceforge > o Technophobic > + Greenpeace > + Most Environmental Groups > (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's > not technophobic?) > o Local > + America's Prize > (Saturn V Restoration exempted for its role in > humanity's first lunar landing) > o No >H Character > + International Red Cross > -- > Jay Dugger > http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 16:46:10 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:46:10 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <20050103162053.75709.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050103162053.75709.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:20:53 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > Don't you realize that the global banking/oil conspiracy is controlled > from Pellucidar, the center of the Earth, and these earthquakes are the > result of underground real estate development in the salt domes vacated > by oil? I would've thought your psychics would have told you that.... > I've just read a news article that points out that the main cause of the tremendous damage was due to deforestation of the beaches (due to population expansion and the tourist industry). See: Forests, mangroves and thick vegetation along or close to the coast also stood their ground against the massive waves that lashed the southeastern Coromandel coast of India Dec 26. Nagapattinam wildlife warden A.D. Baruah pointed out that the coast between Nagoore and Nagapattinam has seen relatively less damage because of a government campaign to put up plantations. Only two deaths were reported from this forested area. "Damages have been restricted also in the Vedaranyam-Kodiampalayam section because of the Casuarina forest stretches promoted here since 1999," he added. "Matured plantations reduced the force of the killer waves." Elsewhere in Tamil Nadu, dense mangroves protected human settlements west of the coastline. M.S. Swaminathan, chairman of the M.S. Swaminathan Research Foundation (MSSRF), said in Chennai: "Though we cannot prevent tsunamis, we should certainly prepare ourselves to mitigate the impact on the population along the coastal ecosystems. "Our anticipatory research work to preserve mangrove ecosystems as the first line of defence against devastating tidal waves on the eastern coastline has proved very relevant today. The dense mangrove forests stood like a wall to save coastal communities living behind them," he added. End Quote. So humans chopping all the trees down left an unrestricted path for the wave to sweep all the construction away. Just as in the mountains deforestation has caused soil erosion and floods. It's obvious really, once it is pointed out. BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 18:15:12 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:15:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050103181512.90940.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > > I've just read a news article that points out that the main cause of > the tremendous damage was due to deforestation of the beaches (due to > population expansion and the tourist industry). > > See: > > > Forests, mangroves and thick vegetation along or close to the coast > also stood their ground against the massive waves that lashed the > southeastern Coromandel coast of India Dec 26. > > Nagapattinam wildlife warden A.D. Baruah pointed out that the coast > between Nagoore and Nagapattinam has seen relatively less damage > because of a government campaign to put up plantations. > > Only two deaths were reported from this forested area. Evidence instead of the stupidity of those who can't see a selection effect when it's in front of them. Only two people died in the mangrove swamps because nobody goes vacationing there. Everybody was on the beaches.... doh!!! ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:40:21 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:40:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Proposed End-Goal: Justice Maximism In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20041230231355.029303f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <5B464DEDC661F724C8069D45F76C788D@weg9mq.centralmail.zzn.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20041230231355.029303f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41D99FA5.8030408@neopax.com> Hara Ra wrote: > Thanks for your transhumanist manifesto, but I have two concerns: > > 1. Is this a troll? > 2. This is too close to the old 'eugenics' of the 20s and 30s for my > comfort. > > "Edward Smith" wrote: > >> Generally, the primary purpose of transhumanism is to increase >> the efficiency of human functioning by modifying the human >> genome of zygotes, > The problem with 'efficiency' is that it has to be precisely defined. In industry that is often quite doable. In 'life' it isn't. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:42:33 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:42:33 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41D9A029.6050705@neopax.com> spike wrote: >Have the greens weighed in on this? > > >http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/29/milk.cartons.ap/index.html > > > Fizzy drinks (at least) taste better out of plastic. Discuss! -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:49:58 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:49:58 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41D9A1E6.1060100@neopax.com> spike wrote: >Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting >the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets >responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake >that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, >which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low >standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global >temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How >about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates >to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. >Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths >of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed >location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, >resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. > > > Try this as a 'cause' of high casualties. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4127927.stm "* Commonwealth Secretary General Don McKinnon has backed calls for a tsunami warning system in the Indian Ocean after Sunday's undersea earthquake. * He was speaking after scientists said many of the 20,000 people killed by the sea surges could have been saved by an international monitoring network. He told the BBC: "Surely there's a means of informing people in the Indian Ocean that this is about to happen." A similar system has existed in the Pacific Ocean for more than 50 years." -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:54:53 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:54:53 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] BusinessWeek: Asia Is Stem Cell Central In-Reply-To: <20050103071955.16475.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050103071955.16475.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41D9A30D.3020604@neopax.com> Jose Cordeiro wrote: > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_02/b3915052.htm > > > Still, Asian countries are far from assured of leading the way in stem > cells over the long term. One big question is whether local > universities can produce enough top-notch researchers, since relying > on imported scientists won't work in the long run. Another concern is > what some critics see as a lax approach to oversight and ethics in > some labs, including the use of stem cells drawn from fetuses aborted > in the second trimester in China. > And here is the phrase which will give the Asian nations a perpetual edge over the US - "...lax approach to oversight and ethics" -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 00:21:27 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:21:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The first chimeras are born Message-ID: <20050104002127.51434.qmail@web41314.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63731-2004Nov19 Transhumanistically yours, La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 4 00:20:38 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:20:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050103161843.02946d58@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> An interesting set of legalistic arguments, but I suspect that even if all of man's activities were not present, the time of the quake might have been delayed by a second or so.... pure guesswork, no way I know of to compute a value. >Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting >the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets >responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake >that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, >which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low >standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global >temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How >about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates >to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. >Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths >of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed >location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, >resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. > >spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 15:43:45 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bostrom letter In-Reply-To: <20050104153626.66332.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050104154345.24552.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nick Bostrom has had a letter published concerning transhumanism in Foreign Policy magazine, viewable now in the print January-February edition. The November-December issue of FP is still online, but when the current issue takes its place I'll provide a link to the letters section. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Tue Jan 4 19:24:04 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:24:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41D9A029.6050705@neopax.com> Message-ID: <001801c4f292$f4b97b80$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> Here you can see "Melencolia I", by Durer, there is also the 'enlarging' facility ... http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/durer/melencol.jpg.html Now, there are several papers, i.e. http://www.museum.cornell.edu/HFJ/permcoll/pdp/img_pr/melen_l.jpg http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/durer.html describing the cool octahedron in the picture, which, seen from above, from the sky, should be a Jewish star, just to say just one of the many peculiarities. But the problem is: can you see something on the front, diamond shaped face of that solid? What is it? Or what are they (because, if you move a bit, the shape seems to change ...)? From scerir at libero.it Tue Jan 4 19:28:22 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:28:22 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier><41D9A029.6050705@neopax.com> <001801c4f292$f4b97b80$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <001f01c4f293$8e17df60$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> > Now, there are several papers, i.e. ... I forgot one of the best ... http://did.mat.uni-bayreuth.de/mmlu/duerer/lu/schreiber.pdf From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 20:02:43 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:02:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) In-Reply-To: <001801c4f292$f4b97b80$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20050104200243.86835.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > Here you can see "Melencolia I", by Durer, there > is also the 'enlarging' facility ... > http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/durer/melencol.jpg.html > > Now, there are several papers, i.e. > http://www.museum.cornell.edu/HFJ/permcoll/pdp/img_pr/melen_l.jpg > http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/durer.html > describing the cool octahedron in the picture, > which, seen from above, from the sky, should be > a Jewish star, just to say just one of the many > peculiarities. Uh, no, a jewish star (star of David) is six pointed, not eight. > > But the problem is: can you see something on the > front, diamond shaped face of that solid? > What is it? Or what are they (because, if you move > a bit, the shape seems to change ...)? "The eyes follow me around".... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sentience at pobox.com Tue Jan 4 21:22:11 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:22:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] *Annual* SL4 Chat, Wed Jan 5th @ 9PM Eastern Message-ID: <41DB0903.5040608@pobox.com> SL4's third Annual Chat will be on Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, at 9PM Eastern time. All transhumanists are welcome. To participate through a standard IRC client, connect to "sl4.org" on a standard IRC port (for example, 6667) and join channel #sl4. irc://sl4.org/sl4 To participate through Java applet, point your browser at: http://sl4.org/chat/ To clear up any confusion about timezones, go to http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Eastern/d/-5/java to see the current time in the Eastern time zone. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 23:58:42 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] EDGE. Martin Rees: Post-human evolution Message-ID: <20050104235842.74467.qmail@web41311.mail.yahoo.com> http://edge.org/q2005/q05_2.html MARTIN REES Cosmologist, Cambridge University; UK Astronomer Royal; Author, Our Final Hour I believe that intelligent life may presently be unique to our Earth, but that, even so, it has the potential to spread through the galaxy and beyond?indeed, the emergence of complexity could still be near its beginning. If SETI searches fail, that would not render life a cosmic sideshow Indeed, it would be a boost to our cosmic self-esteem: terrestrial life, and its fate, would become a matter of cosmic significance. Even if intelligence is now unique to Earth, there's enough time lying ahead for it to spread through the entire Galaxy, evolving into a teeming complexity far beyond what we can even conceive. There's an unthinking tendency to imagine that humans will be around in 6 billion years, watching the Sun flare up and die. But the forms of life and intelligence that have by then emerged would surely be as different from us as we are from a bacterium. That conclusion would follow even if future evolution proceeded at the rate at which new species have emerged over the 3 or 4 billion years of the geological past. But post-human evolution (whether of organic species or of artefacts) will proceed far faster than the changes that led to emergence, because it will be intelligently directed rather than being?like pre-human evolution?the gradual outcome of Darwinian natural selection. Changes will drastically accelerate in the present century?through intentional genetic modifications, targeted drugs, perhaps even silicon implants in to the brain. Humanity may not persist as a single species for more than a few centuries?especially if communities have by then become established away from the earth. But a few centuries is still just a millionth of the Sun's future lifetime?and the entire universe probably has a longer future still. The remote future is squarely in the realm of science fiction. Advanced intelligences billions of years hence might even create new universes. Perhaps they'll be able to choose what physical laws prevail in their creations. Perhaps these beings could achieve the computational capability to simulate a universe as complex as the one we perceive ourselves to be in. My belief may remain unprovable for billions of years. It could be falsified sooner?for instance, we (or our immediate post-human descendents) may develop theories that reveal inherent limits to complexity. But it's a substitute for religious belief, and I hope it's true. La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jan 5 03:57:16 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:57:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f2da$a62f0c30$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? At 12:13 PM 1/2/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: >My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. Damien Broderick: This is precisely the kind of malicious anti-capitalist rumor that Michael Crichton warns us ...Damien Broderick AHA! christians did it! From Brit Hume's grapevine: Disaster's Cause? A Muslim cleric on Saudi TV insists he knows what caused the deadly tsunami in South Asia - Christians. Saudi Cleric Muhammed Al-Manajjid says, "[Christmas and other Christian holidays] are accompanied by forbidden things, by immorality, abomination, adultery, alcohol, drunken dancing ... and revelry. ... [So] At the height of immorality, Allah took vengeance on these criminals." He did not explain why the vengeance was taken on largely non-Christian nations. Back in the U.S., meanwhile, a writer on the Web site Democratic Underground said President Bush and the war in Iraq could be to blame. The writer, quoted by The New York Times, says, "You know, we've exploded many millions of tons of ordnance upon this poor planet. All that 'shock and awe' stuff ... Perhaps the earth was just reacting to something that man has done to injure it." From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 5 06:19:01 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:19:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy Message-ID: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would people voluntarily donate if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? (Sometimes I just hate to think ...). "The 150,000 or so fatalities from the tsunami are well within the margin of error for estimates of the number of deaths every year from malaria. Probably two million people die annually of malaria, most of them children and most in Africa, or maybe it's three million - we don't even know. But the bottom line is that this month and every month, more people will die of malaria (165,000 or more) and AIDS (240,000) than died in the tsunamis, and almost as many will die because of diarrhea ( 140,000). And that's where we're stingy. Americans give 15 cents per day per person in official development assistance to poor countries. The average American spends four times that on soft drinks daily." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/opinion/05kris.html?oref=login&hp Olga From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 5 06:36:50 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:36:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy In-Reply-To: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050105063650.8661.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would > people voluntarily donate > if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? > (Sometimes I just hate to think > ...). Counterpoint: it seems that private American charities have collectively raised more money from Americans than the US government has sent. (US$150 million from the gov't, estimated online donations - not counting offline checks and the like - to US non-gov't charities for tsunami relief are also US$150 million.) Between this, the X Prize, and other things, I wonder if the US is starting to become the nation where people on their own initiative do things that only governments usually do in the rest of the world? (Which has both good and bad connotations.) From scerir at libero.it Wed Jan 5 07:37:12 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:37:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <20050104200243.86835.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c4f2f9$644bbc40$d9c11b97@administxl09yj> From: "Mike Lorrey" > Uh, no, a jewish star (star of David) is six pointed, > not eight. The solid, should have a top triangular face, and a bottom triangular face, but the bottom one is 180? rotated. Now if you project the bottom triangular face onto the top face, you get the star. According to David Finkelstein Durer knew all that perfectly (Durer was a famous mathematician). http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/dfinkelstein.html http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ finkelstein/DurerRelativity4.pdf From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 09:12:12 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:12:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Artificial Life, Inc. (V-Girl) expands into Europe Message-ID: <470a3c5205010501124670f9@mail.gmail.com> We Europeans can now have virtual girl-friends! (I still recommend the real thing though). Hong Kong based Artificial Life, Inc., a provider of mobile technology and applications has announced plans of expansion into the European markets. Artificial Life says that V-Girl uses artificial intelligence, text to speech, real time chat, user profiling and user specific content delivery, 3-D animations and graphics, context sensitive functions and menu icons, over 3000 different video and audio streams, build in user contests, games-in-game functions and offers interactive product placement opportunities for sponsors and advertisers. http://www.digitalmediaasia.com/default.asp?ArticleID=5207 From amara at amara.com Wed Jan 5 11:03:54 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 11:03:54 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead Message-ID: The tsunamis in southeast Asia caused a huge tragedy in human life, I think we all agree. While watching the contribution efforts in the private and governmental realm towards the tsunami/quake tragedy, I wonder : Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts (money, time, etc) for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by those caused by war, genocides, deportations, etc? Tens and/or hundreds of thousands of civilians lost their lives in a matter of hours/days too. The density of dead lives is much higher, as well (Note that the southeast Asia affected region is huge). Dead is dead. Each precious civilian life gone is a tragedy. What is the peculiarity in the human mind-set that lends to people feeling more compassion for the dead in natural disasters versus people feeling compassions for the huge number of lives lost in other (usually human-caused) circumstances? -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From dgc at cox.net Wed Jan 5 11:16:50 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 06:16:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41DBCCA2.1060407@cox.net> Amara Graps wrote: > > The tsunamis in southeast Asia ... Happy New Year, Amara! And Please tell you computer Happy New Year also. It thinks it is 1/05/2004, based on the time it placed in the header of this message. From amara at amara.com Wed Jan 5 11:35:16 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:35:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] human error (was: Dead is dead) Message-ID: I'm sorry Dan... Human error. I use a very old computer for most of my work, that requires me to set the date and time every time when I boot up... (obviously I was still asleep when I set my computer this morning :-( ) Amara P.S.: If anyone has used Mac laptop G4 titanium (from~2-3 years ago) that they want to get rid of, let's talk...) From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 5 13:52:30 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:52:30 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinions? Message-ID: <41DBF11E.8010903@neopax.com> http://www.rense.com/general61/seis.htm -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Jan 5 15:19:54 2005 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:19:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] human error (was: Dead is dead) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A27CE6-5F2D-11D9-8ADF-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 5 Jan 2005, at 12:35, Amara Graps wrote: > P.S.: If anyone has used Mac laptop G4 titanium (from~2-3 years ago) > that > they want to get rid of, let's talk...) Ahh... Why would I want to get rid of it? ;) best, patrick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 16:19:37 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:19:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy In-Reply-To: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050105161937.61167.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> The US government has committed $350 million to the tsunami effort, (while US charities have raised hundreds of millions already and some charities, such as Doctors Without Borders have said they have all they need), which at this date is only surpassed by Japan. On the flip side, the US failed to make the list of the top ten freest economies, which could indicate why our charitable giving is starting to lag behind past efforts. While property rights scores are tops in the US, government fiscal burden and tax rates have not kept up with the trend in the freest nations and are now ranked among the socialist states in level of tax burden. See: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/1/4/154315.shtml "15 cents per day per person"? Not our fault. All those tv commercials tell us we can support a child in the third world for $0.50/day. Based on that calculus, Americans support about 80 million kids in the third world. --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would people voluntarily > donate > if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? (Sometimes I just hate > to think > ...). > > "The 150,000 or so fatalities from the tsunami are well within the > margin of > error for estimates of the number of deaths every year from malaria. > Probably two million people die annually of malaria, most of them > children > and most in Africa, or maybe it's three million - we don't even know. > > But the bottom line is that this month and every month, more people > will die > of malaria (165,000 or more) and AIDS (240,000) than died in the > tsunamis, > and almost as many will die because of diarrhea ( 140,000). > > And that's where we're stingy. > > Americans give 15 cents per day per person in official development > assistance to poor countries. The average American spends four times > that on > soft drinks daily." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/opinion/05kris.html?oref=login&hp > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 16:21:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:21:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) In-Reply-To: <000e01c4f2f9$644bbc40$d9c11b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > From: "Mike Lorrey" > > > Uh, no, a jewish star (star of David) is six pointed, > > not eight. > > The solid, should have a top triangular face, and a bottom > triangular face, but the bottom one is 180? rotated. > Now if you project the bottom triangular face onto > the top face, you get the star. According to David Finkelstein > Durer knew all that perfectly (Durer was a famous > mathematician). > > http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/dfinkelstein.html > > http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ > finkelstein/DurerRelativity4.pdf And Israel didn't exist in that day and age, so now what is your point? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 16:39:41 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:39:41 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) In-Reply-To: <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000e01c4f2f9$644bbc40$d9c11b97@administxl09yj> <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:21:07 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > And Israel didn't exist in that day and age, so now what is your point? > The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with it. The six-pointed star is a very ancient occult symbol going back at least to Ancient Egyptian times. However, in the Middle Ages it became the symbol of Judaism. "The Jewish community of Prague was the first to use the Star of David as its official symbol, and from the 17th century on the six-pointed star became the official seal of many Jewish communities and a general sign of Judaism, though it has no biblical or Talmudic authority. The star was almost universally adopted by Jews in the 19th-century as a striking and simple emblem of Judaism in imitation of the cross of Christianity." BillK From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 5 17:33:35 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:33:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050105173335.44241.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts > (money, time, etc) > for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by > those caused by war, > genocides, deportations, etc? Because they are manmade. Helping the victims may seem to tick off those who made them victims - and thus, potentially make a victim of the donor. Not to mention those citizens of countries directly involved in making that tragedy, who may have little sympathy for "the enemy" (the Marshall Plan being one famous exception) even if the enemy's civilians really had little to do with the war except get displaced by it. This is not the entire reason, but it is part of it. From matus at matus1976.com Wed Jan 5 18:06:17 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (matus at matus1976.com) Date: 5 Jan 2005 18:06:17 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> ----- Original Message ----- --- Amara Graps wrote: >> Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts >> (money, time, etc) >> for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by >> those caused by war, >> genocides, deportations, etc? Because they are manmade. Helping the victims may seem to tick off those who made them victims - and thus, potentially make a victim of the donor. ...This is not the entire reason, but it is part of it. ----------- 100,000 people killed is the moderate estimate of the number of people killed by Saddam in the Shiite uprising post Gulf War I. Whats the death toll in the Sudan now, 370,000? Why is it that when a wave kills 100,000 people the world clamors over itself to prove its the most helpful, but when a government or a tyrant does it, its 'none of our business' ANd what business does the NYT have blabbering about everyone ignoring the deaths from Malaria, you wouldnt even know people were dying from Malaria by reading the NYT. I really have to wonder what the world would be like if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or grieving victims of these horrific regimes. If we saw interviews with victims, videos of distressed starving people with nothing but the clothes on their back (there is plenty enough of that to go around in North Korea, and Burma, and Vietnam, and Laos, etc). Kofi Annan said of this tragedy "This is an unprecedented global catastrophe, and it requires an unprecedented global response. Over the past few days, it has registered deeply in the consciousness and conscience of the world as we seek to grasp the speed, the force and magnitude with which it happened" How is 100,000 dead 'unprecendented'? Have we never had to wrestle with grasping the speed, force, and magnitude in which Pol Pot took power and killed millions of Cambodians, or Saddam's Anfal campaign wiped out 10's of thousands of Kurds. Or Kim Jong Il's rusting factories and barren fields starved millions? It is absurd and greatly distressing and angering. Why does the media and the international community not care when governments kill hundreds of thousands, but fight over each other to show support and help those in need when a wave or an earthquake does it? Michael From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 5 18:19:03 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:19:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <20050105181904.5393.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw > relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam > Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were > interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page > photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or > grieving victims of these horrific regimes. Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the same dictators for their efforts. Those in power in those situations know that unfavorable media coverage would be a quick way to bring the world's armies down on them, and that the best way to stop it is to stop the reporters. Nature, fortunately, doesn't discriminate against media coverage like that. From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 5 18:24:01 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:24:01 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> References: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <41DC30C1.1010205@neopax.com> matus at matus1976.com wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >--- Amara Graps wrote: > > >>>Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts >>>(money, time, etc) >>>for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by >>>those caused by war, >>>genocides, deportations, etc? >>> >>> > >Because they are manmade. Helping the victims may >seem to tick off those who made them victims - and >thus, potentially make a victim of the donor. ...This is not the entire reason, but it is part of it. > > ----------- > >100,000 people killed is the moderate estimate of the number of people killed by Saddam in the Shiite uprising post Gulf War I. Whats the death toll in the Sudan now, 370,000? Why is it that when a wave kills 100,000 people the world clamors over itself to prove its the most helpful, but when a government or a tyrant does it, its 'none of our business' ANd what business does the NYT have blabbering about everyone ignoring the deaths from Malaria, you wouldnt even know people were dying from Malaria by reading the NYT. > > > Or cars. Around half a million a year for our convenience. >I really have to wonder what the world would be like if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or grieving victims of these horrific regimes. If we saw interviews with victims, videos of distressed starving people with nothing but the clothes on their back (there is plenty enough of that to go around in North Korea, and Burma, and Vietnam, and Laos, etc). Kofi Annan said of this tragedy "This is an unprecedented global catastrophe, and it requires an unprecedented global response. Over the past few days, it has registered deeply in the consciousness and conscience of the world as we seek to grasp the speed, the force and magnitude with which it happened" How is 100,000 dead 'unprecendented'? Have we never had to wrestle with grasping th! >e speed, force, and magnitude in which Pol Pot took power and killed millions of Cambodians, or Saddam's Anfal campaign wiped out 10's of thousands of Kurds. Or Kim Jong Il's rusting factories and barren fields starved millions? It is absurd and greatly distressing and angering. Why does the media and the international community not care when governments kill hundreds of thousands, but fight over each other to show support and help those in need when a wave or an earthquake does it? > > > Well, to answer your question, the cure would be worse than the disease. I can just imagine a self righteous Bush and America invading all those tyrants for humanitarian reasons. Starting with the ones who have the most oil or other resources. Check out Iraq for references, unless you think the 100K+ dead who were (and are being) killed by the 'forces of freedom' are somehow better off than the ones killed by Saddam. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 5 18:44:33 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:44:33 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is Dead (was (no subject)) In-Reply-To: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> References: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: Ah, what a question! Yes, continual footage of man-made horrors should "raise consciousness" and would likely be a very good thing in many respects. That said, I quit watching TV news because it was all such hyped up nasty negative stuff. What good will it do the world if I don't sleep well at night and thus slack off on my job? None. Conundrum. I vote against war. But how to take out the Pol Pots of the world without it? Regards, MB On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like if the media > covered the murderous tyrants of the world as it does to this > tragedy. If we saw relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam > Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were interviewed daily and > newspapers ran front page photos every day of the tortured, beaten, > starved or grieving victims of these horrific regimes. If we saw > interviews with victims, videos of distressed starving people with > nothing but the clothes on their back (there is plenty enough of > that to go around in North Korea, and Burma, and Vietnam, and Laos, > etc). Kofi Annan said of this tragedy "This is an unprecedented > global catastrophe, and it requires an unprecedented global > response. Over the past few days, it has registered deeply in the > consciousness and conscience of the world as we seek to grasp the > speed, the force and magnitude with which it happened" How is > 100,000 dead 'unprecendented'? Have we never had to wrestle with > grasping th! e speed, force, and magnitude in which Pol Pot took > power and killed millions of Cambodians, or Saddam's Anfal campaign > wiped out 10's of thousands of Kurds. Or Kim Jong Il's rusting > factories and barren fields starved millions? It is absurd and > greatly distressing and angering. Why does the media and the > international community not care when governments kill hundreds of > thousands, but fight over each other to show support and help those > in need when a wave or an earthquake does it? From matus at matus1976.com Wed Jan 5 19:12:27 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (matus at matus1976.com) Date: 5 Jan 2005 19:12:27 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> ----- Original Message ----- --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw > relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam > Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were > interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page > photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or > grieving victims of these horrific regimes. Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the same dictators for their efforts. Those in power in those situations know that unfavorable media coverage would be a quick way to bring the world's armies down on them, and that the best way to stop it is to stop the reporters. ------------- Really? I suspect the occurences of that are way overblow. Christopher Hitchens visited North Korea and wrote a pretty damning commentary on it. Did anyone care? He wasnt capture, tortured or killed. I dont know, I think the truth is more of the ostrich syndrome, people dont want to know about these shitty countries because they dont want to be faced with the moral quandary of what to do about them. Among those who do know about them the leading mentality seems to be that it's none of our business anyway, that there is no standard of morality and we have no right to judge Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot or Idi Amin. How many western journalists have North Koreans murdered? Any? There are plenty of victims fleeing the horrific regime of North korea into China who could grace the front pages of the NYT every day, complete with horrific stories of famine and torture. Hitchens on North Korea... "All films, all books, all newspapers and all radio and television broadcasts are about either the Father or the Son[Kim Jong Il]. Everybody is a soldier. Everybody is an informer. Everybody is a unit. Everything is propaganda...Children are drilled to think of Japanese and Americans, in particular, as monstrous...The old justification for the Stalinist forced-march system was that at least it led to development. But even in Pyongyang, the capital city which is reserved for approved citizens, one can see that this excuse doesn't work. Neither does anything else; the place is stalled and hungry and subject to constant blackouts. There are no cars on the streets; there is no construction except of tawdry shrines to the Holy Family. A very small window of dollar bribery has opened up in recent years, but there's nothing to buy and no black market. Corruption at the leadership level is exorbitant, with palaces and limos and (a special obsession of Kim Jong Il's) megalomaniacal movie projects...I saw people scavenging individual grains from the fields and washing themselves in open sewers. On the almost deserted roads, animals do a good deal of the hauling. Domestic pets are nowhere to be seen. Perhaps most have been eaten, for the fact is that North Korea is a famine stat...Nobody knows the death toll-the best guess is between 1.5 and 2 million-but in addition a generation of physically and mentally stunted children has been "fathered" by the "Dear Leader." Well-attested rumors of cannibalism have filtered across the border to China, where a Korean-speaking minority has lately been augmented by refugees so desperate that they will risk shooting in order to brave the river. A system where you can't live but you can't leave is the definition of hell...deserted towns, empty factories, wandering and neglected children and untilled fields...the country's once productive coal mines have been allowed to flood, and that there are no pumps that can be brought to bear" (from -http://www.chosunjournal.com/worst.html) From scerir at libero.it Wed Jan 5 20:10:01 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:10:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <038201c4f362$8a189d30$3eb31b97@administxl09yj> From: "Mike Lorrey" > And Israel didn't exist in that day and age, > so now what is your point? The point ... perhaps it is possible to understand many details of "Melencolia I" (i.e. Finkelstein, in that brilliant paper, writes that Durer circumcised that cube to Hebraicize it) but it is difficult to realize the general meaning (if any) of it. Even the term "Melencolia" has no apparent meaning. (Ok that's also true for life, universe, etc.). s. The same, of course, could be said about Picasso's version of "Melencolia", see http://www.strangemusic.com/philostone_picasso.htm#top From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 5 23:58:45 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:58:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy In-Reply-To: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: I reject the fundamental premise that one is morally obligated to help persons one does not know in any and all difficulties. However, you make a quite good point that we do not adequately support research into real killers that we can do something about before the fact. I would not call this "stingy" so much as irrational. -s On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would people voluntarily > donate > if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? (Sometimes I just hate to > think > ...). > > "The 150,000 or so fatalities from the tsunami are well within the > margin of > error for estimates of the number of deaths every year from malaria. > Probably two million people die annually of malaria, most of them > children > and most in Africa, or maybe it's three million - we don't even know. > > But the bottom line is that this month and every month, more people > will die > of malaria (165,000 or more) and AIDS (240,000) than died in the > tsunamis, > and almost as many will die because of diarrhea ( 140,000). > > And that's where we're stingy. > > Americans give 15 cents per day per person in official development > assistance to poor countries. The average American spends four times > that on > soft drinks daily." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/opinion/05kris.html?oref=login&hp > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jan 6 01:21:08 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:21:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Make that Irrational [was Still Stingy] References: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000801c4f38e$00d2b110$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Samantha Atkins" > I reject the fundamental premise that one is morally obligated to help > persons one does not know in any and all difficulties. However, you > make a quite good point that we do not adequately support research into > real killers that we can do something about before the fact. I would > not call this "stingy" so much as irrational. Yes, now THAT - *irrationality* - we've got in droves. Has anyone checked out the Fox television network recently? It is chilling to realize that here we are - in 2004 C.E. - and the discussion on Scarborough (and there's nothing "fair" there) last night was "end times." Ahem ... as in did god(s)(esses) have anything to do with the tsunamis (and, if so, was this one of the signs of the end times)? The guests were certifiable nut cases, and yet the host listened politely and offered commentary on their deranged ravings. *Who* listens to this stuff? I mean, seriously ... More and more, it seems, we are inhabiting a Jerry Springer universe. Observe: we elected our official Jerry Springer President #1 again. Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jan 6 03:23:34 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:23:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > world as it does to this tragedy... Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the same dictators for their efforts... ------------- In all this discussion, I haven't seen mentioned the risk of slanted, exaggerated or false reporting by enemies of the state, in a direct effort to topple the regime. The argument can be made that much of the reason the U.S. invaded Iraq was because of reports that they were developing dangerous weapons. It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and missing-explosives-gate. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jan 6 06:15:17 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:15:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] invariant be In-Reply-To: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> In Robin MacNeil's fascinating language program, a recording made in the 1930s of African American speech was played. Curiously, the invariant "be" was completely missing ("he be going" instead of "he is going). I had it in my mind that this signature ebonics usage was somehow adapted from Western African language groups, but now I am not at all sure it isn't a fairly recent American invention, perhaps in addition to the double negative often heard in such speech. Has anyone ideas or speculations on where, when or how the invariant be came to be? spike From zero.powers at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 07:59:07 2005 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 23:59:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] invariant be In-Reply-To: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <7a3217050501052359543c4c7@mail.gmail.com> Hey Spike, happy new year! It's only a guess, but I'd bet that improper conjugation of the verb "be" goes all the way back to the first African speakers of English in the States. Given that none of the slaves were given English lessons, and whites' main interest in communicating in slaves was to give commands, I can't imagine that the slaveholders would have much interest at all in their slaves properly speaking the King's English. As long as he could tote that barge and lift that bale, so what if he says "I be tired?" I haven't heard MacNeil's language program, but my money says that the African American you heard probably was either fairly well educated, or in the company of persons who didn't improperly conjugate "be." Zero On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:15:17 -0800, spike wrote: > > > In Robin MacNeil's fascinating language program, a > recording made in the 1930s of African American speech > was played. Curiously, the invariant "be" was completely > missing ("he be going" instead of "he is going). > > I had it in my mind that this signature ebonics > usage was somehow adapted from Western African > language groups, but now I am not at all > sure it isn't a fairly recent American invention, > perhaps in addition to the double negative often > heard in such speech. > > Has anyone ideas or speculations on where, when or > how the invariant be came to be? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From maxm at mail.tele.dk Thu Jan 6 10:27:56 2005 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:27:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> Amara Graps wrote: > Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts (money, time, etc) > for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by those caused by war, > genocides, deportations, etc? I wonder why so much effort goes into the millitary, and so little into the development and deployment of disaster relief. They happen pretty often, and a lot of people dies in the aftermath by diseases. Flying short range helicopters with small amounts of suplies, and handing them out manually looks unbelievable uneffective. A world that can develop a-bombs, can shurely develop more efficient approaches for quick disaster relief. Perhaps something like a fleet of cargo planes, that can fly directly and carbet bomb remote areas with food, water, medicine, tools and comunication devices. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From sjatkins at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 10:39:22 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:39:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Make that Irrational [was Still Stingy] In-Reply-To: <000801c4f38e$00d2b110$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000801c4f38e$00d2b110$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <948b11e0501060239267528bf@mail.gmail.com> ohmigod, the end times! Now that just about explains every little thing! Pass the beer and the popcorn sister. We have us ringside seats! -s On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:21:08 -0800, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > From: "Samantha Atkins" > > > I reject the fundamental premise that one is morally obligated to help > > persons one does not know in any and all difficulties. However, you > > make a quite good point that we do not adequately support research into > > real killers that we can do something about before the fact. I would > > not call this "stingy" so much as irrational. > > Yes, now THAT - *irrationality* - we've got in droves. > > Has anyone checked out the Fox television network recently? It is chilling > to realize that here we are - in 2004 C.E. - and the discussion on > Scarborough (and there's nothing "fair" there) last night was "end times." > Ahem ... as in did god(s)(esses) have anything to do with the tsunamis (and, > if so, was this one of the signs of the end times)? The guests were > certifiable nut cases, and yet the host listened politely and offered > commentary on their deranged ravings. *Who* listens to this stuff? I mean, > seriously ... > > More and more, it seems, we are inhabiting a Jerry Springer universe. > Observe: we elected our official Jerry Springer President #1 again. > > Olga > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 10:47:13 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:47:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <948b11e05010602475e466184@mail.gmail.com> After the American people were lied to about 9/11, after they put of the full investigation for 3 years and then stopped most interesting lines of question or took them off the record, after starting a war for no damn reason than the administration wanted it, after saying we were going to Afghanistan to get bin Laden only to later be told Bush doesn't really care about him, after the endless expansion of government secrecy, after all the terrorist alert scares that led to nothing, after all of this and more you dare float that the enemies of the administration (enemies for some unknown and dark reason) were really responsible for much of it and that everything is really ok? Is this really what you are saying at this very late and very dark date? If it is I don't understand how you can manage to lie to yourself that deeply. If you are rational you had best be the "enemy" of the state run by this administration. Because they are sure as hell yours if you love freedom and what this country was supposed to stand for. - samantha On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:23:34 -0800, spike wrote: > --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > > world as it does to this tragedy... > > Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that > coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the > same dictators for their efforts... > > ------------- > > In all this discussion, I haven't seen mentioned the risk of > slanted, exaggerated or false reporting by enemies of the > state, in a direct effort to topple the regime. The argument > can be made that much of the reason the U.S. invaded Iraq > was because of reports that they were developing dangerous > weapons. It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for > in the U.S. much of our mainstream media appears to be > populated with those who oppose the current government, > and have shown themselves willing and eager to spew > slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to > topple that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and > missing-explosives-gate. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 13:23:24 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 13:23:24 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] invariant be In-Reply-To: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41DD3BCC.1000706@neopax.com> spike wrote: >In Robin MacNeil's fascinating language program, a >recording made in the 1930s of African American speech >was played. Curiously, the invariant "be" was completely >missing ("he be going" instead of "he is going). > >I had it in my mind that this signature ebonics >usage was somehow adapted from Western African >language groups, but now I am not at all >sure it isn't a fairly recent American invention, >perhaps in addition to the double negative often >heard in such speech. > >Has anyone ideas or speculations on where, when or >how the invariant be came to be? > > > Perhaps from an English dialect, probably West Country For example, much of the Southern US sound comes from cotton workers who immigrated from Lancashire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Country_Accent "In other areas, /be/ may be used exclusively in the present tense, often in the present continuous; /Where you be going to?/ = /Where are you going?"/ -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 13:25:39 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 13:25:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> Max M wrote: > Amara Graps wrote: > >> Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts (money, time, etc) >> for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by those caused by war, >> genocides, deportations, etc? > > > > I wonder why so much effort goes into the millitary, and so little > into the development and deployment of disaster relief. They happen > pretty often, and a lot of people dies in the aftermath by diseases. > > Flying short range helicopters with small amounts of suplies, and > handing them out manually looks unbelievable uneffective. > > A world that can develop a-bombs, can shurely develop more efficient > approaches for quick disaster relief. > > Perhaps something like a fleet of cargo planes, that can fly directly > and carbet bomb remote areas with food, water, medicine, tools and > comunication devices. > It would probably not take much for the US and EU militaries to stockpile relief supplies around the world and modify their logistical support to deliver it at short notice. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 13:30:00 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 13:30:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> matus at matus1976.com wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >--- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > > >>I really have to wonder what the world would be like >>if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the >>world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw >>relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam >>Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were >>interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page >>photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or >>grieving victims of these horrific regimes. >> >> > >Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that >coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the >same dictators for their efforts. Those in power in >those situations know that unfavorable media coverage >would be a quick way to bring the world's armies down >on them, and that the best way to stop it is to stop >the reporters. > > ------------- > >Really? I suspect the occurences of that are way overblow. Christopher Hitchens visited North Korea and wrote a pretty damning commentary on it. Did anyone care? He wasnt capture, tortured or killed. > >I dont know, I think the truth is more of the ostrich syndrome, people dont want to know about these shitty countries because they dont want to be faced with the moral quandary of what to do about them. Among those who do know about them the leading mentality seems to be that it's none of our business anyway, that there is no standard of morality and we have no right to judge Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot or Idi Amin. How many western journalists have North Koreans murdered? Any? There are plenty of victims fleeing the horrific regime of North korea into China who could grace the front pages of the NYT every day, complete with horrific stories of famine and torture. > > > That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in putting these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to a whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the nuclear armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 17:06:37 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:06:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] intimidation of oligarchy vs. outright violence of dictatorship In-Reply-To: <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050106170637.20194.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, this is the problem. Even in America, citizens with little 'pull' are reluctant to excessively criticize the powerful for fear of retaliation. After all, one is free to publically criticise a criminal, but that criminal is free to ask an underling to pour sugar in one's gas tank. This is something few talk about, it is a peril of oligarchy, as opposed to the guaranteed violence of a dictatorship. Here is an historical example of someone who paid a dear price for an expose: in the 1950s Victor Riesel had acid thrown in his face, blinding him, after his radio show went too far in exposing crime. >Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that >coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the >same dictators for their efforts... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 17:33:23 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:33:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] intimidation of oligarchy vs. outright violence of dictatorship In-Reply-To: <20050106170637.20194.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050106173323.38577.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> One reason being an armed citizen is a good thing, and being politically involved can be a boon. Having people owe you favors is helpful. I recently found out I was under investigation by the Lebanon City Polict dept (which is rife w/ anti-gun democrats). Apparently, allegedly, someone anonymously threatened someone at the Lebanon District Court and the cops, of course, profiled every single white male who had had a court case in the last year (or so they say). I warned them against targeting leaders of minor political parties who are investigating vote fraud in the last election, that letting themselves become pawns in political tussles would be bad for their careers. The investigation is over. Was watching "Married with Children" this morning before going to work. A Chicago politician responds to Peg Bundy's question with "Are you a registered voter?" "No" she replied. "Then I wasn't talking to you." Societies get the government they deserve. --- Ned Late wrote: > Yes, this is the problem. Even in America, citizens with little > 'pull' are reluctant to excessively criticize the powerful for fear > of retaliation. After all, one is free to publically criticise a > criminal, but that criminal is free to ask an underling to pour sugar > in one's gas tank. This is something few talk about, it is a peril of > oligarchy, as opposed to the guaranteed violence of a dictatorship. > Here is an historical example of someone who paid a dear price for an > expose: in the 1950s Victor Riesel had acid thrown in his face, > blinding him, after his radio show went too far in exposing crime. > > >Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that > >coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the > >same dictators for their efforts... > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 18:59:07 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:59:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050106173323.38577.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What are the statutes concerning starter pistols loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded with live ammo. --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > One reason being an armed citizen is a good thing. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 19:13:14 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 19:13:14 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41DD8DCA.4060704@neopax.com> Ned Late wrote: >What are the statutes concerning starter pistols >loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned >about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded >with live ammo. > > > A good modern weapon such as the Walther P99 pistol is very safe. Accidental discharge is virtually impossible. Besides, nobody says you have to keep a round chambered and the gun cocked. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Jan 6 19:29:27 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:29:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry Message-ID: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> > What are the statutes concerning starter pistols > loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned > about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded > with live ammo. Why would you bother? In any case, your question is based on a false premise. Modern firearms are very safe and engineered specifically to make accidental discharge impossible to the extent that it is mechanically possible. Obviously they cannot protect against gross errors in judgement and handling by the owner, which is the only way an "accidental discharge" will happen. And rudimentary competence and discipline can eliminate that problem. j. andrew rogers From humania at t-online.de Thu Jan 6 19:37:50 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:37:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Most memorable sentence of the month Message-ID: <001f01c4f427$377d0aa0$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Talking about financial aid for the nations that were struck by the tsunami, one member of this illustrious circle wrote on December 26th: "I'd suggest the US govt pro-rate support based on how cooperative local governments have been to the US war on terrorism." Just to remind you that brilliant and progressive thinking did not become extinct in 2004. From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 19:50:29 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:50:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <41DD8DCA.4060704@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050106195029.81682.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not having a round chambered and the gun cocked means your reaction time is lengthened. The purpose of carrying a gun for self-defense IMO is for life-&-death situations. A determined assailant wont wait for you to unconceal a weapon, chamber a round and release the safety. >Dirk Bruere wrote: >Besides, nobody says you have to keep a round chambered and the gun cocked. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 20:00:21 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:00:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <20050106200021.44092.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> An aware assailant has enough time to avoid gross errors in judgement and handling of his weapon, while the victim is often taken by surprise. Are you asking why I would carry a starter pistol? Because I would feel safer scaring a bad guy off with the noise of a starter pistol than carrying live ammo around. It's superstition. I'm not religious but avoid crossing the path of black cats and walking under ladders. Carrying a real gun w/ ammo makes me feel superstitious. Every man to the devil his own way :-) "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: Why would you bother? In any case, your question is based on a false premise. Modern firearms are very safe and engineered specifically to make accidental discharge impossible to the extent that it is mechanically possible. Obviously they cannot protect against gross errors in judgement and handling by the owner, which is the only way an "accidental discharge" will happen. And rudimentary competence and discipline can eliminate that problem. j. andrew rogers --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 6 21:11:22 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <20050106211122.68019.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Max M wrote: > I wonder why so much effort goes into the millitary, > and so little into > the development and deployment of disaster relief. Because most of the countries with resources to do so, have put it into disaster prevention or abatement instead. Tsunami warning systems, hospitals, 'quake resistant housing, that kind of thing. (Which is better: to have hundreds of thousands dead and more hundreds of thousands suffer then be helped, or to have no or a few dead plus a few inconvenienced?) Granted, they are the main beneficiaries of their spending - but then, investments are usually made with an eye towards one's own benefit, not primarily the benefit of others. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 6 21:43:43 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:43:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> One thing you should keep in mind. You don;t want to pull a gun out unless you intend to use it. Pulling a gun out incites the fight or flee response in the would-be attacker. They may flee, but they are just as likely to choose to fight. Your choice to pull out your starter gun may likely just make your attacker more angry! Once you cross that line, you don;t have the ability to stop your attacker because your gun isn't real. This is a VERY bad situation. Also, having a gun that you aren;t afraid of will probably make you more likely to pull it out since you know that you couldn;t actually hurt someone with it. Simply put, guns are not for scaring and they are not for killing. They are for stopping. If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 feet away, I will use it. Otherwise, I will keep to packing my .40 cal EAA Witness. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Andrew Rogers" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > > What are the statutes concerning starter pistols > > loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned > > about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded > > with live ammo. > > > Why would you bother? > > In any case, your question is based on a false premise. Modern firearms > are very safe and engineered specifically to make accidental discharge > impossible to the extent that it is mechanically possible. Obviously > they cannot protect against gross errors in judgement and handling by > the owner, which is the only way an "accidental discharge" will happen. > And rudimentary competence and discipline can eliminate that problem. > > > j. andrew rogers > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 6 21:45:34 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:45:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] peaceful weaponry In-Reply-To: <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050106214534.53859.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Simply put, guns are not for scaring and they are > not for killing. They are > for stopping. If a weapon other than a bullet is > even invented that will > just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is > running at me from 20 feet > away, I will use it. Otherwise, I will keep to > packing my .40 cal EAA > Witness. Which is a challenge many people have tried to address. I've heard varying reports of success or failure - e.g., the taser either can or can't reliably stop people, there are experiments in directed energy to stun people but no actual deployments even years after successful lab tests, and so forth. I wonder if it'd be possible to create a quick-dissolving but temporarily strong foam, such that it is easy shattered after several minutes, but for the minute or so after it deploys (spreading foam over at least a meter diameter from point of impact - which is hopefully close to your target's feet), even that 280 lb. attacker would be stopped? (Buying time 'til the police arrive, but that's usually exactly what you need. If you need more time, shoot again, but do take a moment to make sure it's actually an attacker, and not a loved one getting a midnight snack or something.) From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 6 21:48:13 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:48:13 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 feet >away These are serious questions: Does this happen to you often? Has it ever happened? Do you expect it to happen? Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's likely? (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown weapons to deter them.) Damien Broderick From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 00:14:43 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:14:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net><00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> > >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 feet > >away > > These are serious questions: > > Does this happen to you often? > > Has it ever happened? > > Do you expect it to happen? > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's likely? > It has never happened to me. Nor to I expect it to. But I wouldn't drive from Indiana to Florida without a spare, even though I have never had a flat tire. I do not expect to have a flood or go without power for extended lengths of time, but I do keep jugs of water on hand just in case. I do not expect a lot of things, but that does not mean that I should not be prepared. I carry a pocket knife and I have a lighter in my glove box even though I do not smoke. Will I be stranded in the woods in the near future? I seriously doubt it. How do you avoid a flat tire? You don't drive. You can prevent getting into such situations by simply avoiding people. You know as well as anyone that risk is a very difficult thing to define. Assuming that there is no heaven and no God, I have this one life and that's it. The odds may be 10000:1 that I will have a situation that will call for a handgun, but those odds change according to where I go, what I do, the number of people I interact with, where I live, and even what I look like. Whatvever those odds actually are, they are not zero. Of course, if I could avoid it I would. Only an idiot goes looking for a fight. Violence may be the last resort of the incompetent, but that assumes you have full control over every aspect of your life. Personally I think that total control over one's life is an illusion. Random events occur, or "shit happens", however you prefer it. There are many things beyond my control that may kill me. I'll be damned if I let something within my control do it. Some may call this paranoia. I don't. To me, that line is crossed when fear creates behavior that is inconvenient. Carrying a gun is no more inconvenient to me than carrying a wallet. Noone calls me paranoid for being afraid of being stuck somewhere with no ID or money. I fail to see why the fact that I carry a gun could bother anyone. It's not going to "go off" on it's own. The safety needs to be dropped, then about 14 lbs of rear pressure applied to the trigger. The hammer itself has to travel rearward, and then forward. Dropping it on the hammer will not cause the weapon to discharge. The only thing that you would have to fear is that I would one day decide to take your life. If I make that decision, I do not need a gun to do it. Does this mean that everyone should have a gun? I don;t know. Convicted felons, batterers, people with mental problems, I would say "no" to. Decent law-abiding people that do their best to even avoid speeding tickets though, I doubt that a gun will turn them into monsters. w people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown weapons > to deter them.) > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From matus at matus1976.com Fri Jan 7 00:05:41 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:05:41 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> Message-ID: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> > > > > > That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in > general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in putting > these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting > them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to a > whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political > prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the nuclear > armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. > > -- Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi Amin, or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A large number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it as a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever been tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? Michael From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 00:48:35 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <20050107004835.87229.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matus wrote: > > > > > > > > That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West > in > > general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in > putting > > these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least > supporting > > them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up > to > a > > whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political > > prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the > nuclear > > armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. > > > > -- > > Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi > Amin, > or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up > dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is > irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit > about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A > large > number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it > as > a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever > been > tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? Not to my knowledge. Sounds to me like professional courtesy.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 00:59:20 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:59:20 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106165138.0295d6d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. If I ever am mugged again, then I will pack iron, join the local gun club and stay in practice, take the required confrontation courses and if needs be, be truly deadly. However, I think, perhaps stupidly, that prevention is a better cure, so I keep my animal and (extropians or not) my 'psychic' senses (use 'intuitive' if you must) always alert in any situation of any possible danger. Bayes or not, it seems to work. But I haven't seen any tigers either. > > >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jan 7 00:57:49 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050107005749.62765.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Some may call this paranoia. I don't. To me, that > line is crossed when fear > creates behavior that is inconvenient. Carrying a > gun is no more > inconvenient to me than carrying a wallet. That speaks a lot about the difference in perception. Some people live in circumstances where carrying a gun would very well be inconvenient. I.e., people who fly a lot or otherwise have to pass through many metal detectors or pat-downs (not always of the type intended to be a security measure, but which would detect a gun where none is expected). > Noone > calls me paranoid for being > afraid of being stuck somewhere with no ID or money. These days, there are locations where that worry would be viewed as paranoia, by the above definition - assuming a credit or ATM card doesn't count. Only in certain regions, however. From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 7 03:25:57 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:25:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106165138.0295d6d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Hara Ra Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. * >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker... That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using them as a mugging aid. spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 03:49:19 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <005001c4f46b$de63b190$9ceafb44@kevin> You would need a laser with a much wider beam than a pointer. Even the smallest movement at the source causes the beam at 15 feet away to move around wildly. EVen on a good day with all of your attention, you would be hard pressed to keep the point on one eyeball (most attackers will also have two eyes) When in an urgent fearful situation you can forget it. That's why in defensive shooting you learn to shoot for the chest and not the head. You need all the chances you can get to hit the target. The chest is the largest target. Eyeballs are simply too small of a target. However, I do like the idea of a super wide beam pulse laser type device. It could work similar to a camera flash, but would have to be more focused. If you could get a 2 foot beam at 25 feet you might have something. Compact it down to the size of a firearm, let me get 11 shots off in 3 seconds (just in case I miss the first 10 times) and you might even have me won. That 280 lb man will still land on me, but he won;t be able to fight. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:25 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] weaponry Hara Ra Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. ? >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker... That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using them as a mugging aid. spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 7 03:39:28 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:39:28 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Krasnikov: hyperfast travel/ time machines Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106213810.019efd08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9511/9511068.pdf http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508038 From dgc at cox.net Fri Jan 7 04:08:09 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:08:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> Message-ID: <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> The tsunami in the Indian ocean was a low-probability event, and the world was not prepared for it. We are somewhat prepared for a Tsunami in the Pacific, but only because we got nailed by the Alaska tsunami. It is not very smart to pat ourselves on the back in this regard. Consider other low-probability events: are we prepared for an Atlantic tsunami? What about a mid-continent major earthquake in the US, or a major (cat 5) hurricane in the Carolinas? The last major mid-continent US earthquake was in 1811 (New Madrid). The last cat-5 hurricane in the Carolinas was in 1893. If either occurred today, the effects would be horrific. A recurrence of either event is roughly as likely as the Indian ocean tsunami, to a crude first approximation: the last major Indian Ocean tsunami (Krakatoa) occurred in 1883. It is very difficult to get governments or citizens to prepare for such events, and a cost-benefit analysis typically shows that it is just not worth it in a cold-blooded economic sense. Therefore, we should be very careful when we claim that the US (or other "first-world counties") are somehow better prepared than Indonesia was. OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events individually. However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them collectively. Any major catastrophe results in a set of consequences, many of which are common. Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the world, as represented by our governments) might create a generic resource to respond to low-probability catastrophes. For example, "rich" countries might maintain major air-transportable caches of water -purifiers, staple food, field hospitals, tents, and light construction equipment, plus a ready reserve of people, to respond to any catastrophe. In the case of the US (and I assume most countries) This would be associated with the military. Note that this system is useful for many situations, including response to a man-made catastrophe such as a nuclear or biological attack. This means that it should be easier to sell the concept, since we can appeal whatever fear is most trendy. The system I refer to is useful in the first hours and days of the response. Given time, the world will organize a response to any catastrophe. The system I propose would not attempt to solve the longer-term problems in advance. It would simply try to deal with the immediate problems. First response within 24 hours, food and water within 48 hours, etc. Based on the response to the Indian ocean tsunami, the world will respond in a more or less effective manner in about two weeks, even with no pre-planning. What we need is a pre-organized standing response to keep people alive during the first two weeks. From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 7 04:59:27 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:59:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] what is truth? In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010602475e466184@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f475$af3f03b0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Samantha Atkins: ... I don't understand how you can manage to lie to yourself that deeply... Nah, I manage to tell myself the truth that deeply. The mainstream media manage to lie to me that deeply. ...If you are rational you had best be the "enemy" of the state run by this administration... - samantha Lets look at it. This isn't about the recent elections, for I had no strong preference for either of the front runners, and I already knew my guy would lose. What this is about is the transformation of the mainstream media, its slide into shameful irrelevance. Dan Rather presented counterfeit documents in a transparent attempt to sway a nation election. Then after he was caught, he came up with the bizarre stragegy of claiming that the content of the phony documents is true, a claim which was also shown to be false. This act alone might well have swung the election to the right, for it may have caused sympathy for the victim of slander. Samantha, the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. Then cBS announced an independent panel to investigate, requesting a report in weeks, not months: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39939-2004Sep21.html CBS News President Andrew Heyward said Monday that he hopes the panel, which he has not yet named, will report in "weeks, not months" and that he is "open to any recommendations. . . " Ok, weeks, not months. That phrase was uttered on 20 September 2004, which is now two weeks shy of four months, and no report. The missing report has become quite the scandal among mainstream media watchers. Please before you reply, keep in mind this topic is about the mainstream media, not the election. That is bygones, this is now. spike From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 05:32:09 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:32:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106165138.0295d6d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106212428.0292c4f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> To Spike and Kevin: I got conned. I was walking on the sidewalk crossing a driveway, a car pulls up and the guy asks where the 7-11 might be (all of 2 blocks away, but out of sight). As I turn pointing down the sidewalk, he hops out the car and punches my temple. He would have kayoed me but he missed by an inch. Laser pointers did not exist, and are a silly idea, and as this guy was 6" taller and arms longer than I, I doubt that a ball kick or pointer would have done anything but increase my injurys. I did not see him coming.... And frankly, if I had gotten the advantage, I would not be writing this post, I would be a lifer at Folsom. nuff said? ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 05:35:24 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:35:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Har Har Har. The USA RDF (Rapid Deployment Force) is barely a regiment (1000 men). Vs how many kilopeople got hurt here.... >OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events individually. >However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them collectively. Any major >catastrophe results in a set of consequences, many of which are common. >Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the world, as represented by our >governments) might create a generic resource to respond to low-probability >catastrophes. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From dgc at cox.net Fri Jan 7 06:10:36 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 01:10:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41DE27DC.6050103@cox.net> Hara Ra wrote: > Har Har Har. The USA RDF (Rapid Deployment Force) is barely a regiment > (1000 men). Vs how many kilopeople got hurt here.... > >> OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events >> individually. However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them >> collectively. Any major catastrophe results in a set of consequences, >> many of which are common. Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the >> world, as represented by our governments) might create a generic >> resource to respond to low-probability catastrophes. > > Hara, I do not believe that any existing entity can fulfill the requirement. I am proposing that we create an entity that can fulfill the requirement. In the US at the current time. the rhetoric would require us to focus on "terrorism." We could bring the appropriate resources into existence by justifying them in terms of defense against a "terrorist attack." The US should create a response to an attack against any major US city: such a response could, with a tiny incremental cost, also help respond to a low-probability external catastrophe. Take your example. Assume the US really has an RDF of 1000 men. If this force can truly be instantaneously effective against an arbitrary "enemy," then they could (with at most trivial additional training) be effective in a arbitrary catastrophe. 1000 people who can be deployed in 24 hours would make a huge difference in terms of lives saved. An organization of 1,000-men, applied to the problem immediately, might save 1,000,000 lives. Even if, in a fit of overweening hubris, you think that the US should provide 1/2 of the overall quick-reaction resource, we end up with 2,000 men (half ours, half others.) That's still a huge force multiplier compared to the response we can currently provide. From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 06:35:47 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:35:47 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DE27DC.6050103@cox.net> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <41DE27DC.6050103@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106222647.029b02b8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Once upon a time, the USA was a part of UNESCO, but that's history. I certainly agree with your points, but don't feel much optimism per implementation. There is also the terrible problem of what is best over what time frame. Eliezer argues that all resources should go towards Singularity as most cost effective in human lives. I could argue for nanotechnology in the same way. I recall the days of home fallout shelters. The few that were built are now used for other things. In the meantime there is a cost for replacing consumables, fixing rot, stale food, bad meds, etc. Let alone keeping a crew capable of deployment, training others, etc to get it all going. substantial, and question is - is maintaining same more costly than the disaster recovery without such help. nasty question. And, from the nationalistic, and possibly libertarian pov, que bono? >Hara, I do not believe that any existing entity can fulfill the >requirement. I am proposing that we create an entity that can fulfill the >requirement. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Jan 7 07:43:20 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:43:20 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: While I am not an expert like many in these parts I do know that guns do not "accidentally" discharge. They may be irresponsibly handled with a round in the chamber and safety off when not ready to fire or fired without attention to what one is doing. But that is not accidental. That is stupidity and irresponsibility. You learn that it is true what they say. Owning a gun teaches you to be a bit more responsible - to grow up a little and pay a bit better attention perhaps. - s On Jan 6, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Ned Late wrote: > What are the statutes concerning starter pistols > loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned > about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded > with live ammo. > > > > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >> One reason being an armed citizen is a good thing. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Jan 7 09:39:36 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 01:39:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> Message-ID: <0B7738AA-6090-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Dan, this is excellent! A sort of global emergency kit of sufficient size and content to handle the first week or two of getting a more precise and thorough response in motion. This could save an awful lot of lives. Why not suggest a UN program for precisely this purpose. I believe this is quite doable. - samantha On Jan 6, 2005, at 8:08 PM, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > The tsunami in the Indian ocean was a low-probability event, and the > world was not prepared for it. > > We are somewhat prepared for a Tsunami in the Pacific, but only > because we got nailed by the Alaska tsunami. It is not very smart to > pat ourselves on the back in this regard. Consider other > low-probability events: are we prepared for an Atlantic tsunami? What > about a mid-continent major earthquake in the US, or a major (cat 5) > hurricane in the Carolinas? The last major mid-continent US earthquake > was in 1811 (New Madrid). The last cat-5 hurricane in the Carolinas > was in 1893. If either occurred today, the effects would be horrific. > A recurrence of either event is roughly as likely as the Indian ocean > tsunami, to a crude first approximation: the last major Indian Ocean > tsunami (Krakatoa) occurred in 1883. > > It is very difficult to get governments or citizens to prepare for > such events, and a cost-benefit analysis typically shows that it is > just not worth it in a cold-blooded economic sense. Therefore, we > should be very careful when we claim that the US (or other > "first-world counties") are somehow better prepared than Indonesia > was. > > OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events > individually. However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them > collectively. Any major catastrophe results in a set of consequences, > many of which are common. Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the world, > as represented by our governments) might create a generic resource to > respond to low-probability catastrophes. For example, "rich" countries > might maintain major air-transportable caches of water -purifiers, > staple food, field hospitals, tents, and light construction equipment, > plus a ready reserve of people, to respond to any catastrophe. In the > case of the US (and I assume most countries) This would be associated > with the military. > > Note that this system is useful for many situations, including > response to a man-made catastrophe such as a nuclear or biological > attack. This means that it should be easier to sell the concept, since > we can appeal whatever fear is most trendy. > > The system I refer to is useful in the first hours and days of the > response. Given time, the world will organize a response to any > catastrophe. The system I propose would not attempt to solve the > longer-term problems in advance. It would simply try to deal with the > immediate problems. First response within 24 hours, food and water > within 48 hours, etc. Based on the response to the Indian ocean > tsunami, the world will respond in a more or less effective manner in > about two weeks, even with no pre-planning. What we need is a > pre-organized standing response to keep people alive during the first > two weeks. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 7 11:16:54 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:16:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: Spike: >It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of >our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the >current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to >spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple >that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and >missing-explosives-gate. Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government at all except on a rare few radio talk shows, and in the Letters to the Editor sections of newspapers, and certainly, never on television. The rest of the world's media is diverse and they were reporting many things about the middle east if the US folks cared to take a look. If you have a subscription to The Economist, you might enjoy this article about what lengths many journalists, especially those working in poorer countries, go through in order to report news. The press freedom index is UP in most places in the world. http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 11:29:38 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:29:38 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Krasnikov: hyperfast travel/ time machines In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106213810.019efd08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106213810.019efd08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:39:28 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9511/9511068.pdf > > http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508038 > That paper is from 1998. He has a later paper from 2002 that says 'No time machines allowed". BillK From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Jan 7 14:14:33 2005 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 09:14:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The economist is pretty good example of mainstream US media and they frequently publish articles critical of the US govt (as does Harpers, Atlantic, RollingStone, New York Times, New Yorker, Vanity Fair, San Francisco Chronicle, etc etc). I think if you only pick up a paper in Tulsa or LA and consider that representative of all US press you will form an incorrect opinion of how the US press/media operates. BAL >From: Amara Graps >To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:16:54 +0100 > >Spike: >>It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of >>our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the >>current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to >>spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple >>that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and >>missing-explosives-gate. > >Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to >find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most >mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- >a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government >at all except on a rare few radio talk shows, and in the Letters to the >Editor sections of newspapers, and certainly, never on television. > >The rest of the world's media is diverse and they were reporting many >things about the middle east if the US folks cared to take a look. If >you have a subscription to The Economist, you might enjoy this article >about what lengths many journalists, especially those working in poorer >countries, go through in order to report news. The press freedom >index is UP in most places in the world. > >http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A > >-- > >******************************************************************** >Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com >Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt >Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ >******************************************************************** >"It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." >--Calvin >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 14:56:51 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:56:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> References: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <41DEA333.5090600@neopax.com> Matus wrote: >>> >>> >>That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in >>general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in >> >> >putting > > >>these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting >>them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to >> >> >a > > >>whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political >>prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the >> >> >nuclear > > >>armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. >> >>-- >> >> > >Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi Amin, >or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up >dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is >irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit >about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A large > > Primarily because it's not our problem. NK is a well armed state that nobody wants to prop up with aid. Sudan is just yet another instance of Africa imploding. It seems that all assistence to Africa does is prolong the misery. Just about every nation is Africa is a 'fake' - a few lines on a map drawn by the former colonial powers. Trying to maintain those fictions has a lot to do with what's happening and why Africa doesn't work. On top of that may be a cynical realisation that it's pointless to keep feeding people who are breeding beyond the limits of their ability to feed themselves. A case in point is the reaction to the tsunami in the Indian Ocean. I suspect a great deal of the Western response is because we now see those people as being 'us'. They are no longer seen as decrepit hopeless Third Worlders looking for handouts, but hard working folks just like us who have had a tough break. Brit dead are now expected to exceed 400. They were there as tourists having a holiday, just like as if they'd gone to Spain or Portugal. >number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it as >a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever been >tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? > > > Why should they be? All journalists that I know of have been explicitly allowed in by the govt and under careful supervision. It would be more instructive to look at regimes that actually kill journalists (inc foreign ones). -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 14:58:39 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:58:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41DEA39F.7080101@neopax.com> spike wrote: > Hara Ra > > > Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily > blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get > away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. > > I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would > probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. > > ? >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker... > > > > > > That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a > > weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the eye, > > boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a pistol, > might > > still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think about it, its only > a matter > > of time before the bad guys start using them as a mugging aid. > Been done in Britain several years ago. Anyway, a high power flashgun would be better, esp at night. They can bleach out the pigments in the eye for temporary blindness lasting quite a while. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 15:00:55 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:00:55 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > > >> If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will >> just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 >> feet >> away > > > These are serious questions: > > Does this happen to you often? > > Has it ever happened? > > Do you expect it to happen? > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's > likely? > > (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown > weapons to deter them.) > > I'm 6' tall, weight around 200lb and have trained in martial arts for around 25yrs. I've never had a problem on the streets with anyone, even in the roughest parts of London. In fact, people have crossed the road to avoid me... -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 15:04:43 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107005749.62765.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107150443.87300.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > Some may call this paranoia. I don't. To me, that > > line is crossed when fear > > creates behavior that is inconvenient. Carrying a > > gun is no more > > inconvenient to me than carrying a wallet. > > That speaks a lot about the difference in perception. > Some people live in circumstances where carrying a gun > would very well be inconvenient. I.e., people who fly > a lot or otherwise have to pass through many metal > detectors or pat-downs (not always of the type > intended to be a security measure, but which would > detect a gun where none is expected). Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people do it all the time. It is only the public perception that it can't be done that creates a perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, as the public is also convinced that machine guns are illegal. Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of specially checked luggage. The fact that todays world tries so hard to make it inconvenient to carry, with attempts at gun free zones everywhere, makes it clear that the 2nd Amendment is being more than infringed (infringement is not abrogating a right entirely, infringement is merely "infringing" on boundary issues, i.e. the fringe) > > > Noone > > calls me paranoid for being > > afraid of being stuck somewhere with no ID or money. > > These days, there are locations where that worry would > be viewed as paranoia, by the above definition - > assuming a credit or ATM card doesn't count. Only in > certain regions, however. Or circumstances, for instance, any expenses beyond your available credit or the ATM limit (which can be as little as $300/day in most locations). But facts are facts, and today, you wouldn't be paranoid to worry about being somewhere without an ID, given recent court rulings and the Patriot Act, being without an ID is considered a arrestable/jailable offense. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 7 15:55:54 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:55:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] mainstream media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Thanks Amara. My mainstream media news source these days is mainly BBC and Business Week. I like the British take on things. If I need more info, it all comes from the internet. The internet rocks, it gives us control, it provides such a wide array of opinion. Question for the Brits: how is BBC perceived in Jolly Olde? Do you guys view it as biased? Or middle of the road? spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:17 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Spike: >our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the >current government...Two glaring examples, Rathergate and >missing-explosives-gate. Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government... http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25 PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 16:16:31 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:16:31 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] mainstream media In-Reply-To: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:55:54 -0800, spike wrote: > Question for the Brits: how is BBC perceived in Jolly Olde? > Do you guys view it as biased? Or middle of the road? > Is this flamebait or what??? ;) The BBC is viewed through the lens of your own prejudices. They were seen as being very anti the Iraq war, anti Tony Blair's support of the USA and anti USA in their selective reporting from Iraq. All bad news about the USA, nothing good to say, just continual carping and sniping. But after having a big fight with Tony Blair, which he won, there were a lot of resignations and re-organisation in the BBC. So they may be a bit better now. Women managers and directors have a lot of power in the BBC. All their sitcoms seem to involve idiot men and smart women. Googling on BBC bias, complaints, prejudice, etc. should produce lots of interesting reading. BillK From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 16:44:19 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:44:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] mainstream media In-Reply-To: References: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41DEBC63.5080307@neopax.com> BillK wrote: >On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:55:54 -0800, spike wrote: > > >>Question for the Brits: how is BBC perceived in Jolly Olde? >>Do you guys view it as biased? Or middle of the road? >> >> >> > >Is this flamebait or what??? ;) > >The BBC is viewed through the lens of your own prejudices. > >They were seen as being very anti the Iraq war, anti Tony Blair's >support of the USA and anti USA in their selective reporting from >Iraq. All bad news about the USA, nothing good to say, just continual >carping and sniping. > > > Which is fair, except that the BBC view of the Iraq war has been shown to be fairly accurate. >But after having a big fight with Tony Blair, which he won, there were >a lot of resignations and re-organisation in the BBC. So they may be a >bit better now. > > Blair got lucky. When it comes to the deceptive way he dragged us in as Bush's mercs the BBC had it right in essence. I don't call it biased when the 'bias' turns out to be largely a reporting of the truth. >Women managers and directors have a lot of power in the BBC. All their >sitcoms seem to involve idiot men and smart women. > >Googling on BBC bias, complaints, prejudice, etc. should produce lots >of interesting reading. > > > IMO it's too PC. Quite a lot is *not* said because it's politically incorrect. This occasionally results in 'cognitive dissonance' esp when the feminists meet the multiculturalists over Islam. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 16:44:24 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:44:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making Message-ID: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> With the Transhumanist movement, one sees the Gnostic strain reasserting itself in the quest to transcend the degenerate body. The body is held in disdain. Advocates for enhancement technology exhibit disdain for the current status of the physical body. There is an abhorrence of the limitations that nature has placed upon the species. The insufficiencies of height, strength, vision, hearing, longevity and cognition are roadblocks to happiness and perpetual fulfillment. Nature has gotten the human race this far, but the inherent limits of existence are hurdles to be leapt. Like the earlier Gnostics, knowledge and insight are the keys to overcome the deficiencies of the physical. With the accumulation of research in genetic engineering, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, and neural network interfacing, man will be able to overwhelm the frailty and deficiency inherent in the human condition and transform that which was weak into strength. The ability to repair, replace or enhance the various biological systems in the body allows one to overcome the limits of finitude. A logical outcome of this is the prospect of a multitiered view of humanity. If strong advocates of transhumanism have their wish, a new species of Techno sapien will emerge. http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/research_display.php?id=189 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 16:57:37 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:57:37 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DEBF81.7050708@neopax.com> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >With the Transhumanist movement, one sees the Gnostic strain >reasserting itself in the quest to transcend the degenerate body. The >body is held in disdain. Advocates for enhancement technology exhibit >disdain for the current status of the physical body. There is an >abhorrence of the limitations that nature has placed upon the species. >The insufficiencies of height, strength, vision, hearing, longevity >and cognition are roadblocks to happiness and perpetual fulfillment. >Nature has gotten the human race this far, but the inherent limits of >existence are hurdles to be leapt. >Like the earlier Gnostics, knowledge and insight are the keys to >overcome the deficiencies of the physical. With the accumulation of >research in genetic engineering, nanotechnology, artificial >intelligence, and neural network interfacing, man will be able to >overwhelm the frailty and deficiency inherent in the human condition >and transform that which was weak into strength. The ability to >repair, replace or enhance the various biological systems in the body >allows one to overcome the limits of finitude. A logical outcome of >this is the prospect of a multitiered view of humanity. If strong >advocates of transhumanism have their wish, a new species of Techno >sapien will emerge. >http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/research_display.php?id=189 >_______________________________________________ > > That's a very interesting POV. Modern Gnosticism... I think I'll spread this bit of info around. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Jan 7 17:17:00 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:17:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> >This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well worth >passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us who are >not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... > >Donald R Emery PhD > > >On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award > >by Bill Moyers > >On Wednesday, December 1, 2004, the Center for Health and the Global >Environment at Harvard Medical School presented its fourth annual Global >Environment Citizen Award to Bill Moyers. In presenting the award, Meryl >Streep, a member of the Center board, said, "Through resourceful, intrepid >reportage and perceptive voices from the forward edge of the debate, >Moyers has examined an environment under siege with the aim of engaging >citizens." Here is the text of his response to Ms. Streep's presentation >of the award: > >I accept this award on behalf of all the people behind the camera whom you >never see. And for all those scientists, advocates, activists, and just >plain citizens whose stories we have covered in reporting on how >environmental change affects our daily lives. We journalists are simply >beachcombers on the shores of other people's knowledge, other people's >experience, and other people's wisdom. We tell their stories. > >The journalist who truly deserves this award is my friend, Bill McKibben. >He enjoys the most conspicuous place in my own pantheon of journalistic >heroes for his pioneer work in writing about the environment. His >bestseller The End of Nature carried on where Rachel Carson's Silent >Spring left off. > >Writing in Mother Jones recently, Bill described how the problems we >journalists routinely cover - conventional, manageable programs like >budget shortfalls and pollution - may be about to convert to chaotic, >unpredictable, unmanageable situations. The most unmanageable of all, he >writes, could be the accelerating deterioration of the environment, >creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that is >causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into the >North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening >gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of >changes that could radically alter civilizations. > >That's one challenge we journalists face - how to tell such a story >without coming across as Cassandras, without turning off the people we >most want to understand what's happening, who must act on what they read >and hear. > >As difficult as it is, however, for journalists to fashion a readable >narrative for complex issues without depressing our readers and viewers, >there is an even harder challenge - to pierce the ideology that governs >official policy today. One of the biggest changes in politics in my >lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in from >the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the oval office and in >Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold a >monopoly of power in Washington. Theology asserts propositions that cannot >be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a world view despite being >contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality. When ideology and >theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always >blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to >the facts. > >Remember James Watt, President Reagan's first Secretary of the Interior? >My favorite online environmental journalist, the ever engaging Grist, >reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that >protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent >return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, 'after the last tree >is felled, Christ will come back.' > >Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was talking >about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out across the >country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true - >one-third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is accurate. >In this past election several million good and decent citizens went to the >polls believing in the rapture index. That's right - the rapture index. >Google it and you will find that the best-selling books in America today >are the twelve volumes of the left-behind series written by the Christian >fundamentalist and religious right warrior, Timothy LaHaye. These true >believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th >century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages >from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the >imagination of millions of Americans. > >Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George >Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to him >for adding to my own understanding): once Israel has occupied the rest of >its 'biblical lands,' legions of the anti-Christ will attack it, >triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who >have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the >rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and >transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they >will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of >boils, sores, locusts, and frogs during the several years of tribulation >that follow. > >I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've >reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the West >Bank. They are sincere, serious, and polite as they tell you they feel >called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical prophecy. >That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish >settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. It's >why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book >of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound in the great river >Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man.' A war with >Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed - an >essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time I Googled >it, the rapture index stood at 144 - just one point below the critical >threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of God will return, the >righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal >hellfire. >(http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html)Arial> > >So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to Grist >to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist, Glenn Scherer - >'the road to environmental apocalypse.' Read it and you will see how >millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that environmental >destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - even >hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse. > >As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe >lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the U.S. >Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total - more >since the election - are backed by the religious right. Forty-five >senators and 186 members of the 108th congress earned 80 to 100 percent >approval ratings from the three most influential Christian right advocacy >groups. They include Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Assistant Majority >Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference Chair Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, >Policy Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, and >Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat to score 100 percent with the >Christian coalition was Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently >quoted from the biblical book of Amos on the senate floor: "the days will >come, sayeth the Lord God, that i will send a famine in the land.' He >seemed to be relishing the thought. > >And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 TIME/CNN poll found >that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book >of Revelation are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think the Bible >predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive across the country with your radio tuned >to the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations or in the motel turn some >of the 250 Christian TV stations and you can hear some of this end-time >gospel. And you will come to understand why people under the spell of such >potent prophecies cannot be expected, as Grist puts it, "to worry about >the environment. Why care about the earth when the droughts, floods, >famine and pestilence brought by ecological collapse are signs of the >apocalypse foretold in the Bible? Why care about global climate change >when you and yours will be rescued in the rapture? And why care about >converting from oil to solar when the same God who performed the miracle >of the loaves and fishes can whip up a few billion barrels of light crude >with a word?" > >Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the lord will >provide. One of their texts is a high school history book, America's >Providential History. You'll find there these words: "the secular or >socialist has a limited resource mentality and views the world as a >pie that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece." However, "[t]he >Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited and that there is >no shortage of resources in God's earth while many secularists view the >world as overpopulated, Christians know that God has made the earth >sufficiently large with plenty of resources to accommodate all of the >people." No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling that >militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers." He turned out millions of the >foot soldiers on November 2, including many who have made the apocalypse a >powerful driving force in modern American politics. > >I can see in the look on your faces just how hard it is for the journalist >to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me put it on a >personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this world without >expecting a confident future and getting up every morning to do what I can >to bring it about. So I have always been an optimist. Now, however, I >think of my friend on Wall Street whom I once asked: "What do you think of >the market?" "I'm optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so >worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my optimism is justified." > >I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the >Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will protect the >natural environment when they realize its importance to their health and >to the health and lives of their children. Now I am not so sure. It's not >that I don't want to believe that - it's just that I read the news and >connect the dots: > >I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency >has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the environment. >This for an administration that wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, the >Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act protecting rare plant and >animal species and their habitats, as well as the National Environmental >Policy Act that requires the government to judge beforehand if actions >might damage natural resources. > >That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle tailpipe >inspections; and ease pollution standards for cars, sports utility >vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment. > >That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to keep >certain information about environmental problems secret from the public. > >That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against polluting >coal-fired power plans and weaken consent decrees reached earlier with >coal companies. > >That wants to open the arctic wildlife refuge to drilling and increase >drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of >undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last great coastal wild >land in America. > >I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental >Protection Agency had planned to spend nine million dollars - $2 million >of it from the administration's friends at the American Chemistry Council >- to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in their homes. These >pesticides have been linked to neurological damage in children, but >instead of ordering an end to their use, the government and the industry >were going to offer the families $970 each, as well as a camcorder and >children's clothing, to serve as guinea pigs for the study. > >I read all this in the news. > >I read the news just last night and learned that the administration's >friends at the international policy network, which is supported by >ExxonMobil and others of like mind, have issued a new report that climate >change is 'a myth, sea levels are not rising, scientists who believe >catastrophe is possible are 'an embarrassment. > >I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent appropriations >bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and obscene) riders attached to >it: a clause removing all endangered species protections from pesticides; >language prohibiting judicial review for a forest in Oregon; a waiver of >environmental review for grazing permits on public lands; a rider pressed >by developers to weaken protection for crucial habitats in California. > >I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the >computer - pictures of my grandchildren: Henry, age 12; Thomas, age 10; >Nancy, 7; Jassie, 3; Sara Jane, nine months. I see the future looking back >at me from those photographs and I say, 'Father, forgive us, for we know >not what we do.' And then I am stopped short by the thought: 'That's not >right. We do know what we are doing. We are stealing their future. >Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world.' > >And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are greedy? >Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability to sustain >indignation at injustice? > >What has happened to our moral imagination? > >On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And >Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'" > >I see it feelingly. > >The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a >journalist, I know the news is never the end of the story. The news can be >the truth that sets us free - not only to feel but to fight for the future >we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to despair, the cure for >cynicism, and the answer to those faces looking back at me from those >photographs on my desk. What we need to match the science of human health >is what the ancient Israelites called 'hocma' - the science of the >heart ..the capacity to see .to feel .and then to act as if the future >depended on you. > >Believe me, it does. Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 17:25:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote:> > That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a > weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the > eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a > pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think > about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using > them as a mugging aid. Trying to re-invent the gun has always been a fruitless exercise. Essentially, ANY thing which leaves an attacker concious enough to get pissed off is a failure at replacing a firearm. Furthermore, you might stun a mugger THIS time with your laser pointy thingee, or taser, or whatever, but NEXT TIME, i.e. the next time you are outside your pod-hole, they will be forewarned and prepared to counter your defense. Very likely with a firearm. An effeminate distain for putting a rabid dog down permanently has always been, and always will be, a behavior which is not conducive to one's survival. Of course, if you insist on continuing to live in a jurisdiction which does not recognise your right to security of self, you are consciously accepting victimhood and slavish serfdom. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hal at finney.org Fri Jan 7 17:59:45 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:59:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Krasnikov: hyperfast travel/ time machines Message-ID: <20050107175945.C4C0A57E2F@finney.org> On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:39:28 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9511/9511068.pdf > http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508038 Basically this describes an improved version of the (in)famous Alcubierre warp drive, a hypothetical construction for FTL travel using exotic features of General Relativity. Krasnikov's analysis shows however that the Alcubierre warp can't be generated by the ship, it would require a series of external stations to warp space as the ship went past. He shows that it is impossible for a ship-carried warp drive to get from point A to point B faster than light. However, surprisingly, it is not impossible in principle to fly the round trip from A to B back to A faster than light. Basically it is done by having the ship warp space on the outbound leg, so that on the return leg it is going back through the space it warped. This allows Alcubierre-like effects to occur even with an on-ship drive. However there is no specific mechanism proposed that could do this, rather he just establishes that it is not inconsistent with GR. Hal From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 7 18:06:12 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 12:06:12 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com > References: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050107115523.019bad30@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Moyers is cited as commenting: >The journalist who truly deserves this award is my friend, Bill McKibben. >He enjoys the most conspicuous place in my own pantheon of journalistic >heroes for his pioneer work in writing about the environment. McKibben's ENOUGH is an unpleasant piece of smarmy know-nothing equivocation, as I argued on this list with multiple quotes some months ago; I make the case against McKibben's disagreeable book once again in my forthcoming FEROCIOUS MINDS. Incredibly, Moyers goes on to denounce (very properly) the fact that: McKibben is exactly such a theological ideologue, although he masks it a little more smoothly than some. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 18:08:05 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:08:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050107180805.5472.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> I'll note that Bill Moyers states that he and his fellow travellers explicitly believe that the world is a zero-sum game of limited resources. Extropians, who understand that exponentially advancing technology increases resource utilization efficiency faster than the rate of population growth, have more in common with the believers who think that 'the lord provides plenty of room for all the people', than with the chicken-littles who only believe in a malthusian, brutish future of diminishing resources and decreasing choices. As much as the more leftish here think that they are allied with the humanists, you need to wake up. The humanists are no longer pro-human, they are anti-human gaiaists. --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > >This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well > worth > >passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us > who are > >not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... > > > >Donald R Emery PhD > > > > > >On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen > Award > > > >by Bill Moyers > > > >On Wednesday, December 1, 2004, the Center for Health and the Global > > >Environment at Harvard Medical School presented its fourth annual > Global > >Environment Citizen Award to Bill Moyers. In presenting the award, > Meryl > >Streep, a member of the Center board, said, "Through resourceful, > intrepid > >reportage and perceptive voices from the forward edge of the debate, > > >Moyers has examined an environment under siege with the aim of > engaging > >citizens." Here is the text of his response to Ms. Streep's > presentation > >of the award: > > > >I accept this award on behalf of all the people behind the camera > whom you > >never see. And for all those scientists, advocates, activists, and > just > >plain citizens whose stories we have covered in reporting on how > >environmental change affects our daily lives. We journalists are > simply > >beachcombers on the shores of other people's knowledge, other > people's > >experience, and other people's wisdom. We tell their stories. > > > >The journalist who truly deserves this award is my friend, Bill > McKibben. > >He enjoys the most conspicuous place in my own pantheon of > journalistic > >heroes for his pioneer work in writing about the environment. His > >bestseller The End of Nature carried on where Rachel Carson's Silent > > >Spring left off. > > > >Writing in Mother Jones recently, Bill described how the problems we > > >journalists routinely cover - conventional, manageable programs like > > >budget shortfalls and pollution - may be about to convert to > chaotic, > >unpredictable, unmanageable situations. The most unmanageable of > all, he > >writes, could be the accelerating deterioration of the environment, > >creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that > is > >causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into > the > >North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a > weakening > >gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of > > >changes that could radically alter civilizations. > > > >That's one challenge we journalists face - how to tell such a story > >without coming across as Cassandras, without turning off the people > we > >most want to understand what's happening, who must act on what they > read > >and hear. > > > >As difficult as it is, however, for journalists to fashion a > readable > >narrative for complex issues without depressing our readers and > viewers, > >there is an even harder challenge - to pierce the ideology that > governs > >official policy today. One of the biggest changes in politics in my > >lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come > in from > >the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the oval office and in > >Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology > hold a > >monopoly of power in Washington. Theology asserts propositions that > cannot > >be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a world view despite > being > >contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality. When ideology > and > >theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are > always > >blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, > oblivious to > >the facts. > > > >Remember James Watt, President Reagan's first Secretary of the > Interior? > >My favorite online environmental journalist, the ever engaging > Grist, > >reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that > >protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the > imminent > >return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, 'after the last > tree > >is felled, Christ will come back.' > > > >Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was > talking > >about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out > across the > >country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true > - > >one-third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is > accurate. > >In this past election several million good and decent citizens went > to the > >polls believing in the rapture index. That's right - the rapture > index. > >Google it and you will find that the best-selling books in America > today > >are the twelve volumes of the left-behind series written by the > Christian > >fundamentalist and religious right warrior, Timothy LaHaye. These > true > >believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th > >century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate > passages > >from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated > the > >imagination of millions of Americans. > > > >Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George > >Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted > to him > >for adding to my own understanding): once Israel has occupied the > rest of > >its 'biblical lands,' legions of the anti-Christ will attack it, > >triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews > who > >have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the > >rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and > >transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, > they > >will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of > > >boils, sores, locusts, and frogs during the several years of > tribulation > >that follow. > > > >I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've > > >reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the > West > >Bank. They are sincere, serious, and polite as they tell you they > feel > >called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical > prophecy. > >That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish > >settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. > It's > >why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in > the Book > >of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound in the great river > >Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man.' A war > with > >Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed > - an > >essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time I > Googled > >it, the rapture index stood at 144 - just one point below the > critical > >threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of God will > return, the > >righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to > eternal > >hellfire. > >(http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html) > >Arial> > > > >So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to > Grist > >to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist, Glenn > Scherer - > >'the road to environmental apocalypse.' Read it and you will see how > > >millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that environmental > > >destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - > even > >hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse. > > > >As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe > >lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the > U.S. > >Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total - > more > >since the election - are backed by the religious right. Forty-five > >senators and 186 members of the 108th congress earned 80 to 100 > percent > >approval ratings from the three most influential Christian right > advocacy > >groups. They include Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Assistant > Majority > >Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference Chair Rick Santorum of > Pennsylvania, > >Policy Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, and > >Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat to score 100 percent with > the > >Christian coalition was Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently > > >quoted from the biblical book of Amos on the senate floor: "the days > will > >come, sayeth the Lord God, that i will send a famine in the land.' > He > >seemed to be relishing the thought. > > > >And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 TIME/CNN poll > found > >that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in > the Book > >of Revelation are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think the > Bible > >predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive across the country with your radio > tuned > >to the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations or in the motel turn > some > >of the 250 Christian TV stations and you can hear some of this > end-time > >gospel. And you will come to understand why people under the spell > of such > >potent prophecies cannot be expected, as Grist puts it, "to worry > about > >the environment. Why care about the earth when the droughts, floods, > > >famine and pestilence brought by ecological collapse are signs of > the > >apocalypse foretold in the Bible? Why care about global climate > change > >when you and yours will be rescued in the rapture? And why care > about > >converting from oil to solar when the same God who performed the > miracle > >of the loaves and fishes can whip up a few billion barrels of light > crude > >with a word?" > > > >Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the lord > will > >provide. One of their texts is a high school history book, America's > > >Providential History. You'll find there these words: "the secular or > > >socialist has a limited resource mentality and views the world as a > >pie?that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece." However, > "[t]he > >Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited and that > there is > >no shortage of resources in God's earth??while many secularists view > the > >world as overpopulated, Christians know that God has made the earth > >sufficiently large with plenty of resources to accommodate all of > the > >people." No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling > that > >militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers." He turned out millions > of the > >foot soldiers on November 2, including many who have made the > apocalypse a > >powerful driving force in modern American politics. > > > >I can see in the look on your faces just how hard it is for the > journalist > >to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me put it > on a > >personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this world without > >expecting a confident future and getting up every morning to do what > I can > >to bring it about. So I have always been an optimist. Now, however, > I > >think of my friend on Wall Street whom I once asked: "What do you > think of > >the market?" "I'm optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so > > >worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my optimism is > justified." > > > >I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the > > >Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will > protect the > >natural environment when they realize its importance to their health > and > >to the health and lives of their children. Now I am not so sure. > It's not > >that I don't want to believe that - it's just that I read the news > and > >connect the dots: > > > >I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection > Agency > >has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the > environment. > >This for an administration that wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, > the > >Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act protecting rare plant > and > >animal species and their habitats, as well as the National > Environmental > >Policy Act that requires the government to judge beforehand if > actions > >might damage natural resources. > > > >That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle > tailpipe > >inspections; and ease pollution standards for cars, sports utility > >vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment. > > > >That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to > keep > >certain information about environmental problems secret from the > public. > > > >That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against polluting > > >coal-fired power plans and weaken consent decrees reached earlier > with > >coal companies. > > > >That wants to open the arctic wildlife refuge to drilling and > increase > >drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of > >undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last great coastal > wild > >land in America. > > > >I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental > >Protection Agency had planned to spend nine million dollars - $2 > million > >of it from the administration's friends at the American Chemistry > Council > >- to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in their homes. > These > >pesticides have been linked to neurological damage in children, but > >instead of ordering an end to their use, the government and the > industry > >were going to offer the families $970 each, as well as a camcorder > and > >children's clothing, to serve as guinea pigs for the study. > > > >I read all this in the news. > > > >I read the news just last night and learned that the > administration's > >friends at the international policy network, which is supported by > >ExxonMobil and others of like mind, have issued a new report that > climate > >change is 'a myth, sea levels are not rising, scientists who believe > > >catastrophe is possible are 'an embarrassment. > > > >I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent > appropriations > >bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and obscene) riders > attached to > >it: a clause removing all endangered species protections from > pesticides; > >language prohibiting judicial review for a forest in Oregon; a > waiver of > >environmental review for grazing permits on public lands; a rider > pressed > >by developers to weaken protection for crucial habitats in > California. > > > >I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the > >computer - pictures of my grandchildren: Henry, age 12; Thomas, age > 10; > >Nancy, 7; Jassie, 3; Sara Jane, nine months. I see the future > looking back > >at me from those photographs and I say, 'Father, forgive us, for we > know > >not what we do.' And then I am stopped short by the thought: 'That's > not > >right. We do know what we are doing. We are stealing their future. > >Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world.' > > > >And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are > greedy? > >Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability to > sustain > >indignation at injustice? > > > >What has happened to our moral imagination? > > > >On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And > >Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'" > > > >I see it feelingly. > > > >The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a > >journalist, I know the news is never the end of the story. The news > can be > >the truth that sets us free - not only to feel but to fight for the > future > >we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to despair, the cure > for > >cynicism, and the answer to those faces looking back at me from > those > >photographs on my desk. What we need to match the science of human > health > >is what the ancient Israelites called 'hocma' - the science of the > >heart?..the capacity to see?.to feel?.and then to act?as if the > future > >depended on you. > > > >Believe me, it does. > > Natasha Vita-More > http://www.natasha.cc > [_______________________________________________ > President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org > [_____________________________________________________ > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From fortean1 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 7 18:48:09 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:48:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change References: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> <41DEA333.5090600@neopax.com> Message-ID: <41DED969.14DAAB3A@mindspring.com> Dirk Bruere wrote: > > Matus wrote: > > >>> > >>> > >>That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in > >>general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in > >> > >> > >putting > > > > > >>these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting > >>them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to > >> > >> > >a > > > > > >>whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political > >>prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the > >> > >> > >nuclear > > > > > >>armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. > >> > >>-- > >> > >> > > > >Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi Amin, > >or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up > >dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is > >irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit > >about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A large > > > > > Primarily because it's not our problem. > NK is a well armed state that nobody wants to prop up with aid. > Sudan is just yet another instance of Africa imploding. It seems that > all assistence to Africa does is prolong the misery. > > Just about every nation is Africa is a 'fake' - a few lines on a map > drawn by the former colonial powers. Trying to maintain those fictions > has a lot to do with what's happening and why Africa doesn't work. > > On top of that may be a cynical realisation that it's pointless to keep > feeding people who are breeding beyond the limits of their ability to > feed themselves. > > A case in point is the reaction to the tsunami in the Indian Ocean. I > suspect a great deal of the Western response is because we now see those > people as being 'us'. They are no longer seen as decrepit hopeless Third > Worlders looking for handouts, but hard working folks just like us who > have had a tough break. Brit dead are now expected to exceed 400. They > were there as tourists having a holiday, just like as if they'd gone to > Spain or Portugal. > > >number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it as > >a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever been > >tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? > > > > > > > Why should they be? All journalists that I know of have been explicitly > allowed in by the govt and under careful supervision. > It would be more instructive to look at regimes that actually kill > journalists (inc foreign ones). > > -- > Dirk Tony Blair A year of huge challenges Dec 29th 2004 >From The Economist print edition Two particular tasks face the world's rich nations, argues Britain's prime minister in this article: sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change BRITAIN takes over the presidency of the G8 this week. As each member-country holds this position in rotation, critics sometimes dismiss the presidency as little more than a chance to show-case the host nation at the annual summit. I believe they are wrong. I see it instead as an important opportunity to influence the international agenda of some of the world's most prosperous and powerful countries. This doesn't mean, of course, that any country can successfully push the G8 in a direction the other members do not want to go. But the presidency can give an important impetus to tackling problems that the rest recognise need addressing. This is certainly the outcome I want from Britain's presidency in 2005. I have made it clear that our efforts will focus on progress on Africa and climate change. Debt and development The environment Britain's Treasury has details of the International Finance Facility. The Department for International Development manages Britain's aid to poor countries. See also Downing Street, the New Partnership for Africa's Development, the Kyoto Protocol, the World Bank, the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa and the African Union. Why? Firstly because, along with the threat from international terrorism and the spread of weapons of mass destruction, I believe they are the most serious problems facing the world today. Second, because they are both problems beyond the power of any single country, no matter how well-intentioned or powerful, to tackle on its own. A solution requires co-ordinated international action and, above all, leadership, which the G8 is uniquely placed to give. Africa is a continent of breathtaking beauty and diversity with an extraordinary, energetic and resilient people. As I have seen from my own visits, given a chance, no matter how small, to better themselves, they seize it. But Africa is also a place plagued with problems?debt, disease, conflict, corruption and weak governance?so embedded and widespread that no continent, no matter how prosperous, could tackle them on its own. And Africa is not prosperous. It's the world's poorest continent. Half the population of sub-Saharan Africa lives in absolute poverty. And, uniquely, Africa is getting poorer. Average income per head is lower now than it was 30 years ago. It is also the continent worst hit by the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Twenty million Africans have already died from the disease, and it is going to get much worse. In some countries, four out of ten people are infected. Life expectancy is falling, and will soon be down to just 30 years. This catastrophe has single-handedly wiped out half a century of development gains. In Sudan, and elsewhere, we have seen the tragic effects of war. At least 2m people have died in Sudan's north-south conflict over the past 21 years, and millions more have been affected. A comprehensive peace agreement could turn Sudan around; but Darfur remains a catastrophe, and we cannot turn our attention away from it. In Zimbabwe we see the great damage that can be done to a country, its economy, its people and their potential by the destruction of democracy and the failure of governance. We have worked with the international community to identify benchmarks to help Zimbabwe restore the rights and prosperity of its people. Why we should care Should this matter to the rest of the world? For democratic governments, it should, because it matters to our citizens. They give millions of dollars to help Africa and its people. They campaign for their governments to do more. They passionately believe, as I do, that it can't be morally right, in a world growing more prosperous and healthier by the year, that one in six African children still die before their fifth birthday. The worldwide campaign to make poverty history rightly challenges us to act. But the state of Africa is also a case, unusual in politics, where heart and head are pushing us in the same direction. We must now all accept the utter futility of trying to shut our borders to problems abroad. Famine in Africa will affect our countries because it will be a trigger for mass migration. Conflict, too, drives millions to flee their homes. Both create the conditions for terrorism and fanaticism to take root and spread directly to Europe, to North America and to Asia. We spend billions on humanitarian aid to help pick up the pieces. A prosperous Africa, where its people have the chance to fulfil their talents, is in all our interests. The sheer scale of Africa's problems can induce an understandable sense of hopelessness that progress can be made. It helps explain the shocking fact that aid to Africa, notwithstanding Britain's increased contribution, has fallen since 1995. But there are reasons for optimism. We have seen the emergence of a new generation of democratically elected African leaders, determined that their governments will work cleanly and effectively to improve life for their citizens. Their New Partnership for Africa's Development sets out a challenging agenda. According to the World Bank, governance has been improving faster in Africa than in many other areas of the developing world. Conflict in Africa, although still devastating where it occurs, is also decreasing. Mozambique, a country brought to its knees by vicious fighting, has cut its levels of poverty by almost a third since peace. The civil war in Sierra Leone, thanks to the intervention of British forces, is over and the country is slowly recovering. The African Union is playing an increasing role in settling conflicts. We know that the best way to reduce poverty is through economic growth. And we know that economic growth can be increased by aid. Fifteen countries in Africa had average growth rates above 4% throughout the 1990s. Half of Africa had growth of over 5.9% in 2001. Many of the countries which have benefited from increased aid, such as Uganda and Mozambique, have seen poverty fall over an extended period. Targeted British assistance, for example, has already enabled Uganda to introduce universal primary education and free basic health care. We can also increase the effectiveness of our aid. Tied aid, directed by the priorities of the donor rather than the recipient and bypassing government systems, actually undermines effectiveness and internal accountability. Getting others involved I am proud that Britain's involvement is helping this progress. We are doubling our bilateral aid to Africa; it will reach ?1 billion ($1.9 billion) in 2005, and will rise further. We have written off 100% of the debts of the poorest countries. We have dramatically increased help to tackle the big killers such as AIDS and malaria. But to help Africa continue this progress we need a concerted, co-ordinated global effort. Ad hoc, short-term measures will not do. A comprehensive programme of action is needed with sustained commitment to implementation by Africa and by the international community. Truly, a new partnership is required. We need concerted action to improve opportunities and growth, to reduce debt, to tackle HIV, malaria and TB, to fight corruption and to promote peace and security. We also need to tackle trade barriers which push up prices for our consumers, prevent African countries exporting their products and see Europe spending more on subsidising its own farmers than on aid to Africa. This is an investment for our, and Africa's, future: more than half of Africa is under 15. It is already clear what sort of measures are needed, and I believe the recommendations of the Commission for Africa, which will report in the spring, will take us further. Action requires more resources, and now. There will be calls to double aid to Africa. I believe all the G8 members can do more: extending debt relief, providing more resources to tackle HIV, giving more girls the chance of education, reducing rates of infant mortality, building the infrastructure needed for private-sector growth. Investment is needed now, and we must look at ways to bridge the gap. Gordon Brown has set out one way we can do so through the International Finance Facility, which would raise extra aid money by leveraging capital markets and issuing bonds. I hope the G8 will agree not only to a plan of action but also to its implementation, a process of monitoring and review. We all need to be accountable for carrying out the commitments we have made. The changing climate Africa, of course, is also seen by experts as particularly vulnerable to climate change. The size of its land-mass means that, in the middle of the continent, overall rises in temperature will be up to double the global rise, with increased risk of extreme droughts, floods and outbreaks of disease. It is estimated that African GDP could decline by up to 10% because of climate change. But no country will escape its impact. And there can be no doubt that the world is getting warmer. Temperatures have already risen by 0.7?C over the past century, and the ten hottest years on record have all occurred since 1991. It's the fastest rise in temperatures in the northern hemisphere for a thousand years. This temperature rise has meant a rise in sea level that, if it continues as predicted, will mean hundreds of millions of people increasingly at risk from flooding. And climate change means more than warmer weather: other extreme, increasingly unpredictable, weather events such as rainstorms and droughts will also have a heavy human and economic cost. It is true, of course, that some scientists still contest the reasons for these changes. But it would be false to suggest that scientific opinion is equally split. It is not. The overwhelming view of experts is that climate change, to a greater or lesser extent, is man-made and, without action, will get worse. And as the evidence gets stronger by the day, the sceptics dwindle in number. From Arnold Schwarzenegger's California to China's Ningxia province, the world is taking climate change seriously. But just as technological progress and human activity have helped cause this problem, it is also within our power to lessen its impact and adapt to change. Science has alerted us to the dangers our planet faces and will help us meet these challenges. But we need to act now. Delay will only increase the seriousness of the problems we need to reverse, and the economic disruption required to move to more renewable forms of energy and sustainable manufacturing in the future. And the G8, again, needs to lead: not just because we currently account for 47% of global CO2 emissions, but also because it is our scientists, our industries and our economies that must help solve this problem. Russian ratification of the Kyoto protocol means that we now have a new global treaty that is about to come into force. This is good news. But the level of change and ambition required will be far more than the Kyoto protocol is likely to provide. And with the United States, the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases, refusing to sign up to the protocol, this makes the measures we could secure through the G8 even more vital. Although the United States will not ratify Kyoto, other approaches, such as the McCain-Lieberman bill now going through Congress, could stand a better chance of support. Some American states and businesses are also already taking a lead on initiatives to reduce greenhouse emissions. New York has a state emissions-reductions target of 5% below 1990 by 2010 and 10% by 2020. California has a string of policies in train, including regulating carbon emissions from vehicles and increasing the amount of energy generated from renewable sources to 20% of electricity sold into the state by 2010. The United States is also leading investment and research in the new low-carbon economy. It is not a choice, as some suppose, between economic prosperity and tackling climate change. It is technological advances and economic development that will provide the realistic solution. It is the firms and countries that lead the way in adapting to this challenge that will have the competitive advantage in the future. In Britain our economy grew by 36% between 1990 and 2002 while greenhouse gas emissions fell by 15%. British Petroleum has set and achieved targets, such as reducing its greenhouse-gas emissions by 10% in just three years. To achieve this, the company introduced an emissions-trading scheme: it cost $20m to implement, yet saved it $650m over the three-year period. Those companies that adapt early to the demands of a future low-carbon economy know they gain competitive advantage. So this is not just the right thing to do for the sake of the planet. It is the right thing to do commercially. Why we should act Advocates for action on climate change must confront three economic arguments. First, if the case is so clear, why not just leave it to business? To that point I would say it is precisely in this kind of long-term challenge, where there are demonstrable and potentially irreversible social effects, with returns accruing over periods beyond commercial discounting, that government must play a clear role. Second, critics charge that government is picking new, untried technologies that may fail. Here I would say the approach of clever governments is not to pick technologies, but to establish conditions where innovation is supported and encouraged into the market-place. Finally, some argue that there are more immediate problems. In some senses, they are right: over the next five years, for example, water pollution will cause more harm worldwide. It is wrong, however, to see these problems as mutually exclusive. Without a stable climate, addressing other environmental threats will be impossible, ensuring a future of more degraded water and land. Every year lost on tackling climate change will take us further along the path where the costs of action multiply. And I have never believed that simple discounting can be an adequate tool for potentially catastrophic outcomes 50 or more years ahead. We are at a stage where the role of government and global policy must be to encourage the development and commercial viability of the new technologies that have the potential to mitigate the effects of climate change. There is no single ?silver bullet? that will solve the problem, despite what some enthusiasts for nuclear or hydrogen power may tell you. But a whole range of technologies are either available now, or will become available, which, taken together, can make a huge difference. I believe the G8 can take a global lead both in making the world aware of the scale of the problem and in proposing ways to tackle them. Through the G8, we have the opportunity to agree on what the most up-to-date investigations of climate change are telling us about the threat we face. We could also endeavour to identify and support the technological measures necessary to meet the threat, which would complement rather than undercut the Kyoto protocol. And the G8 must also engage actively with other countries with growing energy needs?such as China, India, Brazil and South Africa?to ensure that they meet their needs sustainably and adapt to the adverse effects of climate change, which seem inevitable. Given the different positions of the G8 nations on this issue, such agreement will be a major advance. But I believe it is achievable and necessary. I have no doubt that some may argue that aiming so high both on climate change and Africa is a hostage to fortune. I recall that fictional Whitehall mandarin, Sir Humphrey Appleby of ?Yes, Prime Minister?, describing such ambitions as ?courageous? when he hoped to put Jim Hacker off a particular course of action. But I remain hopeful that we can succeed in these aims. It is vital for the world that we do. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 19:11:42 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 19:11:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change In-Reply-To: <41DED969.14DAAB3A@mindspring.com> References: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> <41DEA333.5090600@neopax.com> <41DED969.14DAAB3A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <41DEDEEE.6080505@neopax.com> Terry W. Colvin wrote: >>Just about every nation is Africa is a 'fake' - a few lines on a map >>drawn by the former colonial powers. Trying to maintain those fictions >>has a lot to do with what's happening and why Africa doesn't work. >> >>On top of that may be a cynical realisation that it's pointless to keep >>feeding people who are breeding beyond the limits of their ability to >>feed themselves. >> >>A case in point is the reaction to the tsunami in the Indian Ocean. I >>suspect a great deal of the Western response is because we now see those >>people as being 'us'. They are no longer seen as decrepit hopeless Third >>Worlders looking for handouts, but hard working folks just like us who >>have had a tough break. Brit dead are now expected to exceed 400. They >>were there as tourists having a holiday, just like as if they'd gone to >>Spain or Portugal. >> >> >Tony Blair > >A year of huge challenges > >Dec 29th 2004 >>From The Economist print edition > > >Two particular tasks face the world's rich nations, argues Britain's prime >minister in this article: sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change >... > > More of Blair's egomaniacal rant. If he can't make his mark on history with a successful war he's now going to be Mother Theresa Mk2 I see no mention was made that one of the major things wrong with Africa is the nation state. Africa worked fine for thousands of years until we (the West primarily) imposed upon it a political model that just doesn't work. It still doesn't work. Africa needs the maps scrapping for a start. And second, we should stop giving aid to African govts - they are corrupt, incompetent and just piss it away. The aid should be channeled through NGOs such as Oxfam, Action Aid etc and delivered stright to the people who need it. Another things we should do is scrap all their debt and then stop lending money to African nations. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Jan 7 19:23:19 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:23:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <20050107180805.5472.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <20050107180805.5472.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107131702.021ebec0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 12:08 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: >I'll note that Bill Moyers states that he and his fellow travellers >explicitly believe that the world is a zero-sum game of limited >resources. ... Look at the bigger picture and see that most solutions are discovered through transdisciplinary thinking, which would most likely include transpolitical thinking. By the way, you missed the most interesting aspect of this article. Natasha From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 19:55:04 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:55:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107195504.15584.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is self-evident in America that citizens have the right to defend themselves, second amendment rights must be protected. However the catch (no pun intended) is: it's not as simple as merely pulling a pistol out of a pocket and firing at a bad guy; if it were I'd obtain a conceal-carry permit myself-- I'm certainly not going to walk around like James Arness with an unconcealed gun. Mike Lorrey wrote: An effeminate distain for putting a rabid dog down permanently has always been, and always will be, a behavior which is not conducive to one's survival. Of course, if you insist on continuing to live in a jurisdiction which does not recognise your right to security of self, you are consciously accepting victimhood and slavish serfdom. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 20:16:46 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:16:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin><6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> Message-ID: <00b001c4f4f5$d0fe7b40$9ceafb44@kevin> Good. I am 5'3 and 135 lbs. I used to be a "collections specialist" at Rent-A-Center which means my job was to go into the ghetto and knock on someone's door and demand back my merchandise or money. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Bruere" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > Damien Broderick wrote: > > > At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > > > > > >> If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >> just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 > >> feet > >> away > > > > > > These are serious questions: > > > > Does this happen to you often? > > > > Has it ever happened? > > > > Do you expect it to happen? > > > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's > > likely? > > > > (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown > > weapons to deter them.) > > > > > I'm 6' tall, weight around 200lb and have trained in martial arts for > around 25yrs. > I've never had a problem on the streets with anyone, even in the > roughest parts of London. > In fact, people have crossed the road to avoid me... > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 21:57:20 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:57:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107195504.15584.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107215721.99018.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > It is self-evident in America that citizens have the right to defend > themselves, second amendment rights must be protected. However the > catch (no pun intended) is: it's not as simple as merely pulling a > pistol out of a pocket and firing at a bad guy; if it were I'd obtain > a conceal-carry permit myself-- I'm certainly not going to walk > around like James Arness with an unconcealed gun. Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being addressed. Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not here, though, and not in a growing number of states. Taking a life in never simple, of course, even one that deserved what they got. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 22:00:38 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:00:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107131702.021ebec0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050107220038.48741.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > At 12:08 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: > >I'll note that Bill Moyers states that he and his fellow travellers > >explicitly believe that the world is a zero-sum game of limited > >resources. ... > > Look at the bigger picture and see that most solutions are discovered > through transdisciplinary thinking, which would most likely include > transpolitical thinking. > > By the way, you missed the most interesting aspect of this article. What is that? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 22:22:39 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:22:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107215721.99018.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107222239.44945.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have no problem with others wanting to open-carry, but wouldn't do so myself, just as some like to be on nude beaches yet others feel uncomfortable. Main thing is, I don't care what statisticians say, it would be the real-time situation of having a bad guy or two stick a weapon in the face. Is there time to quick-draw?: depends on one's reflexes & training. I'd just give them my wallet. And the legal mess you get into when you defend yourself is daunting. Even police are leery of using their weapons, they have to fill out reports, have photos taken, go to court... Mike Lorrey wrote: Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being addressed. Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not here, though, and not in a growing number of states. Taking a life in never simple, of course, even one that deserved what they got. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 22:34:50 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:34:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <20050107215721.99018.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009c01c4f509$19dfbaa0$9ceafb44@kevin> Indiana Law states that lethal force may be used if a person threatens you with death or serious bodily harm AND has the means AND ability to do so. They also allow lethal force in the event that someone is actively attempting arson. Note that the lethal force law says nothing of guns. Instead it addresses the use of a force which could result in someone's death. Anyone who knows anything about guns knows that guns aren't used to "kill" in a defensive situation, only to stop. If the bad guy happens to die, that's their problem and they should have thought of that before they attacked someone. The way it is written, a 6 ft tall 280 lb guy attacking an old woman of 5' and 110 lbs can be dispatched with a handgun even if he is unarmed. Likewise, a 6ft tall 280 lb guy defending himself from an 18 yr old 5 ft tall scrawny kid with a small knife may run into some problems if he chooses to shoot. Sounds almost too much like common sense if you ask me. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:57 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] weaponry > > --- Ned Late wrote: > > > It is self-evident in America that citizens have the right to defend > > themselves, second amendment rights must be protected. However the > > catch (no pun intended) is: it's not as simple as merely pulling a > > pistol out of a pocket and firing at a bad guy; if it were I'd obtain > > a conceal-carry permit myself-- I'm certainly not going to walk > > around like James Arness with an unconcealed gun. > > Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an > issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay > attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising > their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being > addressed. > > Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not > here, though, and not in a growing number of states. > > Taking a life in never simple, of course, even one that deserved what > they got. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 23:45:05 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:45:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <20050107222239.44945.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01c4f512$ea375dd0$9ceafb44@kevin> Actually, police have a harder time than do civilians. They are trained NOT to shoot. They are trained to apprehend. That is not a requirement of a civilian in a potentially deadly situation. I used to have all the stats, but not any more. I do remember that most civilian defensive shootings are open and shut really quick. As for the wallet, protecting it from an attacker IS illegal. The use of lethal force is for protecting yourself. If you think throwing your wallet will help, then do it by all means, but usually you don;t get to ask them what they want. They hit you THEN take the wallet. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ned Late To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:22 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] weaponry I have no problem with others wanting to open-carry, but wouldn't do so myself, just as some like to be on nude beaches yet others feel uncomfortable. Main thing is, I don't care what statisticians say, it would be the real-time situation of having a bad guy or two stick a weapon in the face. Is there time to quick-draw?: depends on one's reflexes & training. I'd just give them my wallet. And the legal mess you get into when you defend yourself is daunting. Even police are leery of using their weapons, they have to fill out reports, have photos taken, go to court... Mike Lorrey wrote: Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being addressed. Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not here, though, and not in a growing number of states. Taking a life in never simpl! e, of course, even one that deserved what they got. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 23:40:01 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:40:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <948b11e0501071540151365b8@mail.gmail.com> In my experience and opinion the media of late is far less critical of the US administration than they should be. It is part of the job of a free press to be criticize where criticism seems to be due. BTW, there was an article today in CNN about part of the administration buying favorable media coverage. Now that is a true perversion of a free press. http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.journalist.ap/index.html - samantha On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 09:14:33 -0500, Brian Lee wrote: > The economist is pretty good example of mainstream US media and they > frequently publish articles critical of the US govt (as does Harpers, > Atlantic, RollingStone, New York Times, New Yorker, Vanity Fair, San > Francisco Chronicle, etc etc). > > I think if you only pick up a paper in Tulsa or LA and consider that > representative of all US press you will form an incorrect opinion of how the > US press/media operates. > > BAL > > >From: Amara Graps > >To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) > >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:16:54 +0100 > > > >Spike: > >>It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of > >>our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the > >>current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to > >>spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple > >>that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and > >>missing-explosives-gate. > > > >Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to > >find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most > >mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- > >a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government > >at all except on a rare few radio talk shows, and in the Letters to the > >Editor sections of newspapers, and certainly, never on television. > > > >The rest of the world's media is diverse and they were reporting many > >things about the middle east if the US folks cared to take a look. If > >you have a subscription to The Economist, you might enjoy this article > >about what lengths many journalists, especially those working in poorer > >countries, go through in order to report news. The press freedom > >index is UP in most places in the world. > > > >http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A > > > >-- > > > >******************************************************************** > >Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com > >Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt > >Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ > >******************************************************************** > >"It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." > >--Calvin > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 23:42:45 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:42:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> I don't see how calling it "gnosticism" can be of anything but detriment to us. Gnosticism is officially heresy in Christian worldviews. - samantha On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:44:24 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > With the Transhumanist movement, one sees the Gnostic strain > reasserting itself in the quest to transcend the degenerate body. The > body is held in disdain. Advocates for enhancement technology exhibit > disdain for the current status of the physical body. There is an > abhorrence of the limitations that nature has placed upon the species. > The insufficiencies of height, strength, vision, hearing, longevity > and cognition are roadblocks to happiness and perpetual fulfillment. > Nature has gotten the human race this far, but the inherent limits of > existence are hurdles to be leapt. > Like the earlier Gnostics, knowledge and insight are the keys to > overcome the deficiencies of the physical. With the accumulation of > research in genetic engineering, nanotechnology, artificial > intelligence, and neural network interfacing, man will be able to > overwhelm the frailty and deficiency inherent in the human condition > and transform that which was weak into strength. The ability to > repair, replace or enhance the various biological systems in the body > allows one to overcome the limits of finitude. A logical outcome of > this is the prospect of a multitiered view of humanity. If strong > advocates of transhumanism have their wish, a new species of Techno > sapien will emerge. > http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/research_display.php?id=189 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 23:45:38 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:45:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> Message-ID: <948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as safe. -s On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:00:55 +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > Damien Broderick wrote: > > > At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > > > > > >> If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >> just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 > >> feet > >> away > > > > > > These are serious questions: > > > > Does this happen to you often? > > > > Has it ever happened? > > > > Do you expect it to happen? > > > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's > > likely? > > > > (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown > > weapons to deter them.) > > > > > I'm 6' tall, weight around 200lb and have trained in martial arts for > around 25yrs. > I've never had a problem on the streets with anyone, even in the > roughest parts of London. > In fact, people have crossed the road to avoid me... > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 23:48:49 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:48:49 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >I don't see how calling it "gnosticism" can be of anything but >detriment to us. Gnosticism is officially heresy in Christian >worldviews. > > > I don't think that any of us are going to change the name of our beliefs, although TechnoGnosticism is rather cool:-) Still, there are stiking parallels. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 23:52:00 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:52:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> <948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DF20A0.8020308@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as safe. > > > No, they just think they do. The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, even once in their lives. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From sjatkins at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 00:02:06 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:02:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all possible. That said, non-lethal weapons also leave one at a disadvantage when up against attackers who are using lethal weapons. If they get a shot end then you are dead. If you get a shot in then they live to perhaps attack another day. It is thus to their advantage to keep attacking until they win as long as they have the desire to do so. - s On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:25:07 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- spike wrote:> > > That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a > > weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the > > eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a > > pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think > > about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using > > them as a mugging aid. > > Trying to re-invent the gun has always been a fruitless exercise. > Essentially, ANY thing which leaves an attacker concious enough to get > pissed off is a failure at replacing a firearm. Furthermore, you might > stun a mugger THIS time with your laser pointy thingee, or taser, or > whatever, but NEXT TIME, i.e. the next time you are outside your > pod-hole, they will be forewarned and prepared to counter your defense. > Very likely with a firearm. > > An effeminate distain for putting a rabid dog down permanently has > always been, and always will be, a behavior which is not conducive to > one's survival. Of course, if you insist on continuing to live in a > jurisdiction which does not recognise your right to security of self, > you are consciously accepting victimhood and slavish serfdom. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 00:20:44 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:20:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <009c01c4f509$19dfbaa0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050108002045.85612.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, it sounds too much like common sense, it sounds too pat. A scrawny kid with a razor sharp knife is dangerous enough. See, it doesn't matter to me what the 'usual' situation is, if someone sticks a weapon very close to my face then there exists only that situation at that exact time, nothing predictable about it IMO. It depends on how tired one is, how alert one is, what mood one is in, what reflexes one possesses. When a guy is attacked he doesn't think what the usual way of dealing with such a situation, he has got to wing it. Now for certain civilians who are ex-servicemen (or maybe militia-types), they may be trained so well that they almost automatically do what has to be done. Don't know. Do know I've been mugged three or four times in NYC when working as a messenger 25 years ago. Once a group of punks stuck long knives very close to my nose so I gave them my wallet- but since they were obvious punks, I asked for my driver's license before they left, and one guy apologetically took the license out of the wallet and dropped it on the ground. Another time a scrawny punk followed me into an elevator and said he had a knife in his pocket. I looked at his pocket and judged there was nothing there. He looked so unsure I almost laughed, but since there was no one besides we two in the elevator, it seemed best at that moment to hand over every sent I had without his even asking. Just to play it extra safe. He thanked me profusely. If we had been outdoors or even in the lobby I would have ignored him. I was never afraid when being mugged, or confused, but each time was an unexpected situation where there was not quite enough time to think in depth. Each mugging was unique, nothing usual to plan for. Kevin Freels wrote: Indiana Law states that lethal force may be used if a person threatens you with death or serious bodily harm AND has the means AND ability to do so. They also allow lethal force in the event that someone is actively attempting arson. Note that the lethal force law says nothing of guns. Likewise, a 6ft tall 280 lb guy defending himself from an 18 yr old 5 ft tall scrawny kid with a small knife may run into some problems if he chooses to shoot. Sounds almost too much like common sense if you ask me. :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Jan 8 00:27:43 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:27:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107181338.027634f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Comparing transhumanism to gnosticism is nothing new. I've seen and heard it many times, most notably in Erik Davis' book, "Techgnosis". The attempt to force transhumanism (in all its flavors) into the shape of gnosticism can only be damaging. This essay follows the usual line of saying that we "despise" the physical body. I'm sure *some* of us do, but for most of us, that attitude does not follow from a desire to improve on the amazing start made by nature. (When you edit your first draft of a piece of writing or coding, does that imply that you *despise* your initial attempt?) The body is not and cannot be "degenerate", since it hasn't degenerated from a imaginary state of initial perfection. Transhumanism really has none of the fundamentalism dualism of gnosticism. There is no equivalent of "the Fall." Nor do we claim access to a special way of knowing (we just read and think more than most people!). The author's suggestion that we enlightened transhumans-to-be (the "chosen few") will lead the rest into the future or leave them "to wallow", is an absurdly prejudicial characterization. The same might be said of *anyone* who tries to encourage others to adopt better ways of doing things, as they see it. Onward! Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From dirk at neopax.com Sat Jan 8 00:41:27 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 00:41:27 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DF2C37.9070404@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long >lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to >learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal >weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations >if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a >fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all >possible. > > > "It may be possible for each to think too much of his own potential glory hereafter; it is hardly possible for him to think too often or too deeply about that of his neighbor. .. It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never met a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it s with immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry , snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors." C S Lewis -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 00:42:44 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:42:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] one serious assault In-Reply-To: <20050108002045.85612.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050108004245.33459.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In 1987 I got into a passenger seat in an auto, with two "ladies" in Sacramento Ca. The one in the rear seat choked off my breath with a bar, I couldn't breathe at all; lucky not to pass out. At first I hesitated to hand over the $40.00 in my boot, then the swell dame in the rear seat pulled the bar even tighter. I took off my boot and forked over the money. Perhaps because I hesitated the lady didn't relent of her suffocating activity, or maybe they thought I had more $. Anyway they got onto the freeway and I decided to kick the driver, very hard... she yelled, then a minute or two later she hit the guardrail and stopped the car (putting, say, a $40.00 dent in the vehicle). Immediately the choker let go of the bar. I turned around to punch the suffocator in the face, but just before the punch landed she grabbed my spectacles. I hopped out on one boot into the honking, blurry traffic. This anecdote is to remind you that all assaults and muggings are unique and unexpected. I was unwise to get into an auto with strangers, but after the attack started, little could be planned for. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk at neopax.com Sat Jan 8 00:46:41 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 00:46:41 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107181338.027634f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050107181338.027634f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <41DF2D71.6020609@neopax.com> Max More wrote: > Comparing transhumanism to gnosticism is nothing new. I've seen and > heard it many times, most notably in Erik Davis' book, "Techgnosis". > > The attempt to force transhumanism (in all its flavors) into the shape > of gnosticism can only be damaging. This essay follows the usual line > of saying that we "despise" the physical body. I'm sure *some* of us > do, but for most of us, that attitude does not follow from a desire to > improve on the amazing start made by nature. (When you edit your first > draft of a piece of writing or coding, does that imply that you > *despise* your initial attempt?) The body is not and cannot be > "degenerate", since it hasn't degenerated from a imaginary state of > initial perfection. > I'll play Devils Advocate here... In most, if not all people I would suggest the body *is* degenerate in that each of us is not the best that a Human can be simply because of genetic imperfections. > Transhumanism really has none of the fundamentalism dualism of > gnosticism. There is no equivalent of "the Fall." Nor do we claim > access to a special way of knowing (we just read and think more than > most people!). > The dualism is hardware/software. As for the Fall, consider the Simulation Argument and possible implications. Or alternatively, we are awaiting the moment of the Fall, or Transcendence, in the Singularity (although that's more akin to Armageddon theologically). > The author's suggestion that we enlightened transhumans-to-be (the > "chosen few") will lead the rest into the future or leave them "to > wallow", is an absurdly prejudicial characterization. The same might > be said of *anyone* who tries to encourage others to adopt better ways > of doing things, as they see it. > Such as Gnostics? -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 8 01:52:57 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com><948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> <41DF20A0.8020308@neopax.com> Message-ID: <002501c4f524$c72b54b0$9ceafb44@kevin> > > > No, they just think they do. > The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far > outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. > The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, > even once in their lives. > The vast majority of Americans do not die in car accidents, but that is no reason to not wear a seat belt. :-) From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jan 8 02:38:29 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:38:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Natasha Vita-More Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award by Bill Moyers ... creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that is causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into the North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of changes that could radically alter civilizations... This oddball comment again. I've heard it several times, and I have yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon would give a damn if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic. Do they think an aircraft carrier won't float in a slightly less saline sea? Are they concerned a northwest passage opening up will cause some kind of conflict with northern Europe? Do they really take seriously the Hollywood notion that global warming will plunge us into a new ice age? What is that about really? Seems the pentagon types would be the last to notice or care about global warming. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 8 05:11:54 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050108051154.85034.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > This oddball comment again. I've heard it several > times, and I have > yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon > would give a damn > if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic. The Pentagon's mission is to defend the US. Granted, it's usually supposed to focus on military threats, but an environmental catastrophe big enough to disrupt civilization is everybody's problem. Can't fight a war if the factories to make your bullets ain't working no more. Besides, these days, the environment itself can be a military target, especially for the enemies the Pentagon fancies seeing (terrorists who somehow become as aware of and able to use science and technology as we do - despite the fact that that seems to be somewhat contrary to most actual terrorists' natures). From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 8 06:59:58 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:59:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: Thanks for posting this. It is indeed one of the most chilling things I have read and I am no stranger to such of late. While I disagree with Bill Moyers on some particular points, he draws attention to very real dangers from the religious ideologues now ascendent in the US. While I hold a low opinion indeed of what is truly running this bloated government (and it goes FAR deeper than this administration), I have possibly misjudged the size and impact of the Ready for Rapture crowd. I sincerely hope his views of its extent are overblown. If not then I am very much afraid we are in for hell on earth. Not from the second coming but from these loons ready to pass out the kool-aid. I hope that the parts where Moyers' views disagree with mine or that of others here do not blind us to the dangers we face that he warns about. It is a common human characteristic to disbelieve bad news if chinks in a few points or in the bearer's character can be found. I think we give in to that tendency at our peril. - samantha From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 8 07:40:50 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:40:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award Message-ID: <20050108073703.M6282@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Thanks Natasha for forwarding that. I knew the political landscape was bad, but that article put it in another realm entirely. Chilling. I'm worried too. Amara From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 8 08:11:08 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:11:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: Spike, You might want to check out what could happen to the haline cycle if significant fresh water was dumped into the North Atlantic. While reasonable people may disagree on the extend of problems associated with global warming and the extent of such warming itself, it is not at all reasonable to simply dismiss the entire topic. Global warming can indeed trigger a new ice age although not as dramatically as in a recent rather silly movie that shall remain nameless. And why is it that bright people on this list have mostly only harped on points they disagree with or that play to their favored positions while missing the urgency of the inmates having considerable influence in the earth's only remaining superpower? I would think there are more important matters at hand. Or is this sort of response just diversion in the face of that which one feels powerless to change? - samantha On Jan 7, 2005, at 6:38 PM, spike wrote: > Natasha Vita-More > > Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment > CitizenAward > > ? > > On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award > > by Bill Moyers > > > ... creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that > is causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into > the North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a > weakening gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the > kind of changes that could radically alter civilizations... > > ? > > ? > > This oddball comment again.? I?ve heard it several times, and I have > > yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon would give a damn > > if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic.? Do they think an > aircraft > > carrier won?t float in a slightly less saline sea?? Are they concerned > > a northwest passage opening up will cause some kind of conflict > > with northern Europe?? Do they really take seriously the Hollywood > > notion that global warming will plunge us into a new ice age? What is > > that about really?? Seems the pentagon types would be the last to > > notice or care about global warming.? > > ? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4873 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 11:20:47 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:20:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] We Must Learn To Repair The Brain Message-ID: <470a3c520501080320374e6fb8@mail.gmail.com> Longevity Meme: A discussion of stem cell research in the Danvers Herald provides a good feel for the reasons why research into the human brain is vital to the future healthy life extension. The more we learn, the more we find can go wrong in the aging brain; articles like this make Paul Allen's decision to fund the Brain Atlas project look very smart. Twenty years from now, when most of the major organs in the body can be repaired in situ or regrown from scratch, regenerative neuroscience will become increasingly important. The brain is in a class of its own - the one organ we can't just replace as a matter of last resort. The technologies used to repair aging or damaged brains must, by necessity, be more advanced. http://www.longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id=1425 From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jan 8 15:34:07 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 09:34:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Death by Injury VS Infection Vs Ageing- STATS? In-Reply-To: <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> Message-ID: <41DFFD6F.5030907@sasktel.net> When one separates the stats on causes of death is it appropriate to have only 3 categories: Injury- accident, murder, suicide, war, starvation, childbirth ,medical procedure failure Infection - all infectious disease acute and chronic under age 65, congenital malformations leading to death under age 6, allergy related Ageing as a generalized, chronic degenerative terminal disease - infectious disease after age 65, congenital malformations after age 6, all the chronic and various wide ranging degenerative conditions from heart disease to cancer to neurological catastrophe, and general systemic failure including all the longer term ones such as low level inflammatory conditions such as arthritis. Has onyone a quick link to stats for their country that can be sorted out in this way? Does any country or organization accept ageing as a disease in a format as above? From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 8 16:01:00 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 09:01:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Postscript to "Fabulous Prophecies"; SHARE fund for tsunami relief; Skeptics Society conference Message-ID: <41E003BC.AE73B22B@mindspring.com> Some miscellany: 1. I've published a postscript to my "Fabulous Prophecies of the Messiah" at the Secular Web responding to some critics: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html#postscript 2. The Center for Inquiry has set up a tsunami relief fund called Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort (SHARE) to donate the funds to a charity in Sri Lanka recommended by Arthur C. Clarke. The Internet Infidels has made a donation and has a link on the front page of the Secular Web (http://www.infidels.org), though that donation link seems to be temporarily not working and the Center for Inquiry's website (http://www.centerforinquiry.net) suggests to send checks by mail. 3. Shermer's Skeptics Society conference will be held again this May 13-15 at Caltech on the subject "Brain, Mind, and Consciousness." Featured speakers include John Allman, Susan Blackmore, Richard McNally, Stephen Quartz, V. S. Ramachandran (author of _Phantoms in the Brain_), Ursula Goodenough, Alison Gopnik, Hank Schlinger, Terry Sejnowski, Christoph Koch, Paul Zak, and special guest Michael Crichton (which should be quite interesting since he's a believer in the paranormal); there will also be magic and illusions from Jerry Andrus, Bob Friedhoffer, and Mark Edward, and James Randi will be on the bill for 30 minutes before Crichton. I've already registered and would enjoy meeting list members there. You can register at http://www.skeptic.com. -- Jim Lippard -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jan 8 17:54:15 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:54:15 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Death by Injury VS Infection Vs Ageing- STATS? In-Reply-To: <41DFFD6F.5030907@sasktel.net> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> <41DFFD6F.5030907@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <41E01E47.3050907@sasktel.net> Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > When one separates the stats on causes of death is it appropriate to > have only 3 categories: > > Injury- accident, murder, suicide, war, starvation, childbirth > ,medical procedure failure > > Infection - all infectious disease acute and chronic under age 65, > congenital malformations leading to death under age 6, allergy related > > Ageing as a generalized, chronic degenerative terminal disease - > infectious disease after age 65, congenital malformations after age 6, > all the chronic and various wide ranging degenerative conditions from > heart disease to cancer to neurological catastrophe, and general > systemic failure including all the longer term ones such as low level > inflammatory conditions such as arthritis. > > Has onyone a quick link to stats for their country that can be sorted > out in this way? > Does any country or organization accept ageing as a disease in a > format as above? > Found with a google search of words chronic +degenerative plus pharase "ageing as a disease" a paper: http://www.maxlife.org/ownersmanual.pdf with just the stats I mentioned above for the USA for 1996 A graph showing the changing relationship between accidental, infectious and ageing complex related deaths over the last several centuries might also demonstrate the situation simply > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jan 8 18:03:42 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:03:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global EnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c4f5ac$6510db00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global EnvironmentCitizenAward Spike, And why is it that bright people on this list have mostly only harped on points they disagree with or that play to their favored positions while missing the urgency of the inmates having considerable influence in the earth's only remaining superpower?... This phrase "only remaining superpower" has been exaggerated. The U.S. does have a really big really modern military, but it is getting less big all the time. Fewer people are signing up for the reserves, after learning they may be called upon to go to some evolution-forsaken place and fight, early and often. We have seen in the past couple years that under certain circumstances, a huge coalition of powerful nations can be very limited in how much it can do. We have seen where wars are transitioning from the old fashioned kill-people-and- destroy-things to a more modern information war. This transition started with the first atomic bomb. ... I would think there are more important matters at hand. Or is this sort of response just diversion in the face of that which one feels powerless to change? - samantha I did do something about it. In the recent election, W and that tall senator guy were both religionistas. I voted against them. Bill Moyers: ... even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of changes that could radically alter civilizations... Moyers seems to speak as tho radically altering civilizations and overwhelming changes are a bad thing. I see this radical change as a most promising development. The threat of religionistas with political power is indeed an issue, but I anticipate a change in the next 10 to 15 years that may be the salvation of humanity. We will surely work out wearable computers with continuous links to the internet. Most of us here enjoyed having about 20 points tacked onto our IQs by having access to the internet. We suddenly had the biggest library in the world brought to our desktops. The Google came along, the second member of the holy info-trinity, the tool that allows us to find things. The third and possibly most important development is to have the contents of the internet with us 24-7. When we get that, it will be immediately obvious that anyone without that connection is the modern day version of a hermit, irrelevant in every important way. We will be able to download photos instantly from wherever we are, which will allow us for the first time to see things as they really are. We will be able to take photos from any location and post them. Instead of bloggers, we would be phloggers. When we hear of a news story, we would look thru the phloggers eyes to see it firsthand. Car show time! More later. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 19:54:09 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <41DF20A0.8020308@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as > safe. > > > No, they just think they do. > The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far > outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. > The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, > even once in their lives. The one time I became a victim of assault, the assailant was high on drugs, and I was unarmed. As many of you know, I am not a small man. I pack a punch, and I have some training in hand to hand combat. This guy just wouldn't go down. After pummelling him several times and attempting to walk away several times, the police finally showed up (this happened on a well populated street in the club district of Burlington, VT) after about 15 minutes, when I was pretty worn out and worried about ending it positively. If I had been in an isolated area, it likely would have come out much worse for me. If I had been a petite woman, or elderly person, I would have had no hope. Maintaining one's body as a deadly weapon takes far more effort, time, expense, and dedication than owning and carrying a deadly weapon. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 8 21:07:00 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:07:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Survey: Nanotechnology Message-ID: <41E04B74.FBA96214@mindspring.com> [The Economist carried a series of articles on nanotechnology. "Apply here Where very small things can make a big difference. Page 5 "Fear and loathing Some of the worries about nanotechnology are rational, some not. Page 7 "Downsizing Companies both large and small hope to make big money from tiny particles. Page 9 "Handle with care Nanotechnology promises great benefits, but safeguards will be essential. Page 11" Terry < http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3494722 > SURVEY: NANOTECHNOLOGY Small wonders Dec 29th 2004 >From The Economist print edition Nanotechnology will give humans greater control of matter at tiny scales. That is a good thing, says Natasha Loder (interviewed here) ATOMS are the fundamental building blocks of matter, which means they are very small indeed. The world at the scale of atoms and molecules is difficult to describe and hard to imagine. It is so odd that it even has its own special branch of physics, called quantum mechanics, to explain the strange things that happen there. If you were to throw a tennis ball against a brick wall, you might be surprised if the ball passed cleanly through the wall and sailed out on the other side. Yet this is the kind of thing that happens at the quantum scale. At very small scales, the properties of a material, such as colour, magnetism and the ability to conduct electricity, also change in unexpected ways. It is not possible to ?see? the atomic world in the normal sense of the word, because its features are smaller than the wavelength of visible light (see table 1). But back in 1981, researchers at IBM designed a probe called the scanning tunnelling microscope (STM), named after a quantum-mechanical effect it employs. Rather like the stylus on an old-fashioned record player, it could trace the bumps and grooves of the nanoscale world. This allowed scientists to ?see? atoms and molecules for the first time. It revealed landscapes as beautiful and complex as the ridges, troughs and valleys of a Peruvian mountainside, but at the almost unimaginably small nanometre (nm) scale. A nanometre is a billionth of a metre, or roughly the length of ten hydrogen atoms. Although scientists had thought about tinkering with things this small as long ago as the late 1950s, they had to wait until the invention of the STM to make it possible. ...more at URL... -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 21:08:17 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:08:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050108051154.85034.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050108210817.667.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- spike wrote: > > This oddball comment again. I've heard it several > > times, and I have > > yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon > > would give a damn > > if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic. > > The Pentagon's mission is to defend the US. Granted, > it's usually supposed to focus on military threats, > but an environmental catastrophe big enough to disrupt > civilization is everybody's problem. So is alien invasion, which the Pentagon has also developed plans and strategies for. Doesn't make it any more statistically possible or less nutty. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 8 21:30:01 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:30:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050108132438.029b88b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Lets take this one step further: We all have a "vulnerable" button. This can be triggered by anyone else within 10 meters or so. First shot causes one to sit down safely and stay still for 5 minutes. Full sensory recording on, illegal to interfere with immobilized person except to save from injury or death. Only those with buttons can use them. Second use of button adds 5 more minutes and applies to pusher and pushee. At this point local law enforcement is signaled. If after 5 minutes, anyone pushes button, all sit down, lose consciousness, local med team or law enforcement has to do reset. Strong reinforcer of being careful with ones actions.... At 04:02 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: >As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long >lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to >learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal >weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations >if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a >fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all >possible. > >That said, non-lethal weapons also leave one at a disadvantage when up >against attackers who are using lethal weapons. If they get a shot >end then you are dead. If you get a shot in then they live to perhaps >attack another day. It is thus to their advantage to keep attacking >until they win as long as they have the desire to do so. > >- s ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 8 22:53:41 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:53:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global EnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000c01c4f5ac$6510db00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000c01c4f5ac$6510db00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, spike wrote: > > ... I would think there are more important matters at hand. Or is this > sort > of response just diversion in the face of that which one feels > powerless to > change? - samantha > > > > I did do something about it. In the recent election, W and that > tall senator guy were both religionistas. I voted against them. > As did I. Obviously it was not sufficient (remotely) to deal with the problem. > > > > Bill Moyers: > > > ... even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening gulf stream > could > yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of changes that could > radically alter civilizations... > > > > Moyers seems to speak as tho radically altering civilizations and > overwhelming changes are a bad thing. I see this radical change as > a most promising development. The threat of religionistas with > political power is indeed an issue, but I anticipate a change in > the next 10 to 15 years that may be the salvation of humanity. We > will surely work out wearable computers with continuous links to > the internet. Having the world's economy and ability to feed itself largely fall apart plus destruction of a lot of very valuable people, resources and goods would be extremely un-extropic. It could also quite easily fuel a repent-and-get-right-with-God hysteria that makes today's problems with fundies look utterly insignificant. I am sure that you would not see those sorts of radical alterations as remotely conducive to our goals. Such a disruption may nearly flat-line high tech development, life extension work and so on. Scarcity severe enough that mere survival becomes problematic tends to do that. > > Most of us here enjoyed having about 20 points tacked > onto our IQs by having access to the internet. We suddenly > had the biggest library in the world brought to our desktops. > The Google came along, the second member of the holy info-trinity, > the tool that allows us to find things. The third and possibly > most important development is to have the contents of the > internet with us 24-7. When we get that, it will be immediately > obvious that anyone without that connection is the modern > day version of a hermit, irrelevant in every important way. > We won't get it if the world falls apart abruptly or more slowly to a significant degree first. That is the point. Hell, we won't even get it if we can't get the bureaucrats sufficiently out of the way. The point being that only seeing the very promising technological progress and what can be done from here without watching out for and attempting to avoid or ameliorate dangers that could stop progress dead in its tracks or reverse it is quite myopic and potentially deadly. - samantha From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 22:55:28 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:55:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050108132438.029b88b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050108225528.16141.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Gedankenexperiments don't save lives, no matter how much handwaving you do. I don't see any proposals for a real technology here. Not only that, but the scenario is a failure, for the same reason gun control is a failure: because it doesn't address those who break the law by not having a button, or having a hacked button that doesn't work properly. If the criminal doesn't have such a button, how is a person supposed to defend themselves against the criminal, since the criminal would then not be able to be subdued. --- Hara Ra wrote: > Lets take this one step further: We all have a "vulnerable" button. > This can be triggered by anyone else within 10 meters or so. First > shot causes one to sit down safely and stay still for 5 minutes. > Full sensory recording on, illegal to interfere with immobilized > person except to save from injury or death. Only those with buttons > can use them. Second use of button adds 5 more minutes and applies > to pusher and pushee. At this point local law enforcement is > signaled. > > If after 5 minutes, anyone pushes button, all sit down, lose > consciousness, local med team or law enforcement has to do reset. > > Strong reinforcer of being careful with ones actions.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Jan 8 23:15:21 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:15:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] We Must Learn To Repair The Brain In-Reply-To: <470a3c520501080320374e6fb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050108181331.03308a40@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:20 PM 08/01/05 +0100, you wrote: snip > The brain is in a >class of its own - the one organ we can't just replace as a matter of >last resort. snip Always remember, with a brain transplant operation you want to be the *donor.* Keith Henson From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 23:39:32 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:39:32 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: References: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: The environmental message is important, although i suppose impending environmental doom could further spur technological advances and contribute to the singularity. Another interesting point brought up is that the government of the US, the most powerful nation in the world, is currently dominated by both Theology AND Ideology, something Moyer claims has never happened before: "That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound in the great river Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man.' A war with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed - an essential conflagration on the road to redemption. " Whether or not action in Iraq is a mistake, the US running around the world starting conflicts because of religious beliefs is rather frightening. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 02:06:38 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:06:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050109020638.36292.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Swanson wrote: > The environmental message is important, although i suppose impending > environmental doom could further spur technological advances and > contribute to the singularity. > > Another interesting point brought up is that the government of the > US, the most powerful nation in the world, is currently dominated by > both Theology AND Ideology, something Moyer claims has never happened > before: Which is clearly a lie to any idiot who has ever read US history. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dirk at neopax.com Sun Jan 9 02:19:29 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 02:19:29 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tsunami surfing Message-ID: <41E094B1.6050507@neopax.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4153109.stm A German, the manager of a quarry, wrote his recollections of being swept away. He was carried off the top of his three-storey office building at the summit of a 30m high hill. The tsunami that roared in from the sea that Monday morning in 1883 must have been 40m high, at least. He recalled being carried along on the wave's green unbroken crest, watching the jungle racing below, paralysed with fear. Then suddenly to his right, he saw, being swept along beside him, an enormous crocodile. With incredible presence-of-mind he decided the only way to save himself was to leap aboard the crocodile and try to ride to safety on its back. How he did it is anyone's guess, but he insists he leapt on, dug his thumbs into the creature's eye-sockets to keep himself stable, and surfed on it for 3km. He held on until the wave broke on a distant hill, depositing him and a presumably very irritated croc on the jungle floor. He ran, survived, and wrote about the story. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 9 03:28:32 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:28:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Having the world's economy and ability to feed itself largely fall apart plus destruction of a lot of very valuable people, resources and goods would be extremely un-extropic... - samantha Certainly, however the models of global warming causing ocean currents being disrupted bringing an ice age to Northern Europe always seemed contradictory to me. Be that as it may, let us assume for the sake of argument that there are real risks, ones I am willing to grant, such as that Antarctic ice shelf collapse, raising the sea level 5 meters. With that in mind, let us ask why the U.S. and Australia refused to ratify the Kyoto agreement. I can think of a couple reasons. One of the biggies is that the U.S. government hasn't the authority to reduce CO2 emissions. No one in Washington can dictate that, altho I see that Taxifornia politicians are attempting it. Let us see how that works out. The larger issue I see is that the Kyoto agreement deals only with reducing emissions of CO2, not with ways of drawing existing CO2 out of the atmosphere. Both the U.S. and Australia have vast stretches of land with little growing on it. We could divert rivers inland and grow forests where now there are grassy plains. Consider eucalyptus globulus. It can grow in a variety of soils, even rocky, poor soils, given sufficent water. They grow really fast, producing a soft but dense wood. We could grow eucalytus forests in the American southwest, cut them when perhaps a meter in diameter at the base, cut off the branches and tie them together in enormous bundles of perhaps a thousand logs bound with steel cable. The bundles could then be floated in the Pacific Ocean and allowed to drift until they become sufficiently waterlogged to sink to the bottom. Eucalyptus globulus is native to Australia already, so the same could be done there. If the wood does not get waterlogged enough to sink, then we could allow it to drift in the Pacific current until it gets into the Southern hemisphere, at which time the bundles could perhaps be towed to Antarctica, where they would be pulled from the water and hauled inland, where it would take centuries to decay, for the organisms which are adapted for such tasks would surely be unable to survive in that bitterly cold climate. My question is this: if the Kyoto accord authors are *really* primarily concerned with reducing CO2, why not look at other possibilities besides just reducing emissions? There are better answers. spike From dirk at neopax.com Sun Jan 9 04:53:04 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:53:04 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e050108130082c579@mail.gmail.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> <41DF2C37.9070404@neopax.com> <948b11e050108130082c579@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41E0B8B0.5030208@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >Wonderful! Thanks for the quote. While (of course) I disagree with >C S Lewis about a great many things I thoroughly enjoyed much of his >work in my teens including his apologetics. I don't think I cam >across this quote though. Where is it from? > > > Googling, " _The Weight of Glory_." I've had it for quite a few years - at least 12 IIRC. Always meant to use it in a Transhumanist context, but never really got around to it until now:-) Another quote I like concerns paganism, which he was apparently defending despite being an Xian: *You said 'The world is going back to Paganism'.* Oh bright Vision! I saw our dynasty in the bar of the House Spill from their tumblers a libation to the Erinyes, And Leavis with Lord Russell wreathed in flowers, heralded with flutes, Leading white bulls to the cathedral of the solemn Muses To pay where due the glory of their latest theorem. Hestia's fire in every flat, rekindled, burned before The Lardergods. Unmarried daughters with obedient hands Tended it By the hearth the white-armd venerable mother /Domum servabat, lanam faciebat./ at the hour Of sacrifice their brothers came, silent, corrected, grave Before their elders; on their downy cheeks easily the blush Arose (it is the mark of freemen's children) as they trooped, Gleaming with oil, demurely home from the palaestra or the dance. Walk carefully, do not wake the envy of the happy gods, Shun Hubris. The middle of the road, the middle sort of men, Are best. Aidos surpasses gold. Reverence for the aged Is wholesome as seasonable rain, and for a man to die Defending the city in battle is a harmonious thing. Thus with magistral hand the Puritan Sophrosune Cooled and schooled and tempered our uneasy motions; Heathendom came again, the circumspection and the holy fears ... You said it. Did you mean it? Oh inordinate liar, stop. 2 Or did you mean another kind of heathenry? Think, then, that under heaven-roof the little disc of the earth, Fortified Midgard, lies encircled by the ravening Worm. Over its icy bastions faces of giant and troll Look in, ready to invade it. The Wolf, admittedly, is bound; But the bond wil1 break, the Beast run free. The weary gods, Scarred with old wounds the one-eyed Odin, Tyr who has lost a hand, Will limp to their stations for the Last defence. Make it your hope To be counted worthy on that day to stand beside them; For the end of man is to partake of their defeat and die His second, final death in good company. The stupid, strong Unteachable monsters are certain to be victorious at last, And every man of decent blood is on the losing side. Take as your model the tall women with yellow hair in plaits Who walked back into burning houses to die with men, Or him who as the death spear entered into his vitals Made critical comments on its workmanship and aim. *Are these the Pagans you spoke of? Know your betters and crouch, dogs; You that have Vichy water in your veins and worship the event Your goddess History (whom your fathers called the strumpet Fortune).* -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 04:53:31 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:53:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: > Certainly, however the models of global warming causing > ocean currents being disrupted bringing an ice age to > Northern Europe always seemed contradictory to me. As mentioned before, the concern of global warming eventually causing some areas of the globe to become cooler stems from a theory suggesting that thermohaline circulation, or the haline cycle as another called it, may shut down. Basically, ocean currents act as a conveyor belt moving water all over the world. Warm, salty water flows from the pacific and indian oceans into the north atlantic where it cools, sinks, and eventually flows southward again. This warm water flowing into the north atlantic is reponsible for the relatively mild winters in western europe and north america. Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. I haven't come across any articles claiming that this can bring about an ice age, but it will cause colder winters in north america and europe. What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 04:55:12 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:55:12 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: References: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: Sorry, forgot sources: http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/32.htm http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/Science/Conveyor.asp > > As mentioned before, the concern of global warming eventually causing > some areas of the globe to become cooler stems from a theory > suggesting that thermohaline circulation, or the haline cycle as > another called it, may shut down. > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 05:33:52 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:33:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Swanson wrote: > Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing > tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus > increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may > prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving > southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. > > With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in > NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. > > I haven't come across any articles claiming that this can bring about > an ice age, but it will cause colder winters in north america and > europe. North America gets its cold from Alaska and the Yukon. As there is no ice there, the winter wouldn't get colder.... you folks need to start using real logic when you construct your propaganda. > > What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? There are plenty of methods of carbon sequestration that would be cheaper than hamstringing every developed economy with overbearing taxes on energy that would never be used on the environment, instead the energy tax revinues are to be used on constructing a global wefare state, not what the proponents of the greenhouse theory claim, but looking at the groups doing the talking, it is their primary agenda. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 07:25:58 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:25:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is > melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool > europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. I'm not really an expert on the idea, but I have heard of it before and decided to throw it out there because it seems to be /the theory/ cited by people who predict cooling in certain areas of the world as a result of global warming. The contradiction you point out makes sense. Perhaps though the melting is going on during the summer. Salinity levels would not change all that much during the winter months, and thus the conveyor belt would still be shut down. Perhaps the belt is currently warming the north enough that the additional warmth from the green house effect is sufficient to melt the ice. Again, I just read the article and paraphrased, but for the sake of illustrating an idea lets just assume that thermohaline circulation is responsible for making northern regions 10 degrees warmer than otherwise, and global warming adds another 2 degrees. The extra 2 degrees may be enough to increase the rate of freshwater melt during the summer months to the point that it shuts down the cycle. Once the cycle is shut down, the average temperature would 8 degrees lower than normal. In this extremely contrived example. There have been numerous studies on this, and these people are not stupid. The idea may be used for propaganda, claiming that it may bring about an ice age certainly seems to be propaganda, but that does not mean that it is scientifically unsound. > There are plenty of methods of carbon sequestration that would be > cheaper than hamstringing every developed economy with overbearing > taxes on energy that would never be used on the environment, instead > the energy tax revinues are to be used on constructing a global wefare > state, not what the proponents of the greenhouse theory claim, but > looking at the groups doing the talking, it is their primary agenda. People in the US argue back and forth about the merit of Kyoto. I'm more curious about the cheaper alternatives you suggest, and why they are superior to cutting back our CO2 emissions. I'm not saying there aren't any, so please don't rip me apart. I'd just like to know which cheaper and /or superior solutions you are suggesting. Please correct my ignorance. Again, if you want a more detailed explanation of the idea outlined in my previous post, check out: http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/abruptclimate_joyce_keigwin.html On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:33:52 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Jon Swanson wrote: > > > Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing > > tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus > > increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may > > prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving > > southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. > > > > With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in > > NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. > > Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is > melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool > europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. > > > > > I haven't come across any articles claiming that this can bring about > > an ice age, but it will cause colder winters in north america and > > europe. > > North America gets its cold from Alaska and the Yukon. As there is no > ice there, the winter wouldn't get colder.... you folks need to start > using real logic when you construct your propaganda. > > > > > What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? > > There are plenty of methods of carbon sequestration that would be > cheaper than hamstringing every developed economy with overbearing > taxes on energy that would never be used on the environment, instead > the energy tax revinues are to be used on constructing a global wefare > state, not what the proponents of the greenhouse theory claim, but > looking at the groups doing the talking, it is their primary agenda. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! > http://my.yahoo.com > > From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 9 07:28:07 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Jon Swanson: What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. Do the calculations, they are not at all difficult. I understand CO2 has gone from about 300 parts per million in the atmosphere to about 360 in this century. So 60 ppm is the reduction goal, and if a square meter of atmosphere weighs about 1e5 newtons, so it has a mass of about 1e4 kg. The earth's radius is about 6.4e7 meters and the surface area of a sphere is 4*pi*r^2 so about 5e14 m^2 so an atmosphere has a mass of about 5e18 kg. 60 ppm means about 3e14 CO2, which is about 1e14 kg of carbon, if we dont get too worried past 1 digit precision. Wood is nearly all carbon (assuming one digit precision), so about 1e11 cubic meters of wood must be produced, bundled and sunk in the sea or squirreled away in Antarctica somewhere. Of course it is a big wood pile: 10 meters deep by 100 km on a side, but land is cheap down there. Hell its nothing but ice, snow and a few penguins, and they don't vote. Can this be produced? A 10-15 year old eucalyptus globulus is about something over meter diameter and fifteen meters tall, so for single digit precision we can estimate it at 10 cubic meters of wood, so we would need 1E10 such logs. Can we produce ten billion of these? I think we can. Imagine them on 20 meter centers, so a couple thousand of these can be produced on each square km, so a couple good sized western U.S. states, the obscure ones that aren't good for much of anything and no one ever heard of anyway (such as Wyoming and Utah) is close enough to a million square km there, two billion trees per generation of 10-15 years, it would only take 5 generations (50 to 75 years) to generate that 1e14 kg of carbon in the form of eucalyptus logs. And all it would cost us is a couple of red states and a good sized river, such as the Sacramento or the Columbia, and we are there. We have 50 of them, we would never miss a couple. And we haven't even started to use up Australia yet, mate. Or Africa. There they are, sitting on the Sahara desert not doing anything, and a skerjillion low-wage people needing jobs. Why do we sit around and wring our hands over global warming instead of getting on with fixing it? The Kyoto accord doesn't have the right means of fixing it. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 9 07:44:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:44:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Great Climate Flip-Flop In-Reply-To: References: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050109013748.019a5ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:25 AM 1/9/2005 -0600, Jon Swanson wrote: >Again, if you want a more detailed explanation of the idea outlined in >my previous post, check out: >http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/abruptclimate_joyce_keigwin.html Linked from the same site is Bill Calvin's famous essay: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98jan/climate.htm * The Great Climate Flip-Flop * Atlantic Monthly, January 1998, William Calvin but you have to be a subscriber, damn it. It used to be on Calvin's website; might still be. Hang on. Ah: http://williamcalvin.com/1990s/1998AtlanticClimate.htm which has the essay, and his replies to critics: http://williamcalvin.com/1990s/1998LettersReplyAtlMonthly.htm Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 12:22:23 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:22:23 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800, spike wrote: > > Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. > There are already many 'plant a tree' campaigns all around the world. For one example, see: "In our Global ReLeaf? campaign our goal is to help people around the world plant one billion new trees in the next five years. In the United States the goal of our Trees Across America is to help get one tree planted for every American by 2007." (US population - about 300 million) The vanishing of existing forests and the resulting natural disasters, e.g. soil erosion, landslides, floods, air pollution, etc. are causing more and more attention to be given to re-forestation. Third World population increases cause forests to be cleared for farming, so the rapid industrialization of the Third World will reduce this effect. As the Indian government noted, forests planted along shorelines also break the force of any tsunamis that hit the coast. BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 13:27:04 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:27:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] WT: Stem-cell ambivalence Message-ID: <470a3c5205010905273e21c8de@mail.gmail.com> It's easy to forget that stem-cell research is still in its infancy, considering all the reports that predict it could provide treatments - perhaps even cures - for life-threatening diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and diabetes. But Charles Jennings, executive director of Harvard University's Stem Cell Institute, says there already have been some breakthroughs. Researchers in Sweden and the United States have demonstrated, using dopamine transplants, "clear clinical" evidence of the promise stem-cell research holds for Parkinson's patients, he said. And in a study by Japanese scientists, published last week in the Journal of Clinical Investigation, stem cells taken from monkey embryos and implanted in the brain reversed some Parkinson's symptoms in other monkeys. The researchers say their work supports arguments that stem cells taken from days-old embryos can be used to replace tissues damaged by a variety of diseases. http://washingtontimes.com/specialreport/20050109-120809-5421r.htm From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Sun Jan 9 16:39:54 2005 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:39:54 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in >> NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. > >Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is >melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool >europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. And I don't see how having less ice will avoid cooling selected parts of the world. There's no need to go under zero to call spring, summer and fall "cold", except maybe for residents of Calgary and Fairbanks :-) Alfio From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Jan 9 17:13:12 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:13:12 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Inaugural Excess Message-ID: <003f01c4f66e$8094d710$6600a8c0@brainiac> In keeping with the image of the aw-shucks average (albeit ersatz) Texan who's just a down home good Christian boy, why not simply hold a bake sale? (the government, after all, could use a little more cash): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57877-2005Jan7.html Olga From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 9 17:24:33 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:24:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> BillK wrote: >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800, spike wrote: > > >>Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. >> >> >> > >There are already many 'plant a tree' campaigns all around the world. >For one example, see: > >"In our Global ReLeaf? campaign our goal is to help people around the >world plant one billion new trees in the next five years. In the >United States the goal of our Trees Across America is to help get one >tree planted for every American by 2007." >(US population - about 300 million) > > > Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this approach is water. As an alternative, we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern US: this actually makes economic sense. We can also encourage trees rather than grass in the suburbs of the eastern US. My house sits on 2 acres, 1.5 acres is wooded. This was treeless farmland until about 1950. The natural progression moves from soft-wood through quick-growing hardwood to slow-growing dense hardwood. My gut feeling is that without any management at all this progression sequesters progressively more carbon per acre. If I desired to sequester carbon more aggressively, I would simply collect most of the fallen leaves annually: This is done in denser suburbs in my area. Unfortunately, the leaf collecting authorities then turn around and give the leaves away to gardeners, etc., who in a mass act of environmental abuse then encourage them to rot and release the sequestered carbon back into the atmosphere! Some people have no respect for the environment. The effective re-forestation of the US east is a very real phenomenon. If we could achieve re-forestation of other areas that were de-forested by civilization, we would sequester carbon more easily than we can by attempting to build forests in semi-arid locations. The prime candidate areas include Greece, Rome, areas of India and China, and much of Europe, all of which were heavily forested before human intervention. From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sun Jan 9 17:38:48 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:38:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <51BAF7B0-6265-11D9-BC61-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:28 PM, spike wrote: > Can this be produced? A 10-15 year old eucalyptus globulus > is about something over meter diameter and fifteen meters tall, > so for single digit precision we can estimate it at 10 cubic > meters of wood, so we would need 1E10 such logs. Can we > produce ten billion of these? I think we can. Imagine > them on 20 meter centers, so a couple thousand of these > can be produced on each square km, so a couple good sized western > U.S. states, the obscure ones that aren't good for much > of anything and no one ever heard of anyway (such as Wyoming and > Utah) is close enough to a million square km there, two billion > trees per generation of 10-15 years, it would only take > 5 generations (50 to 75 years) to generate that 1e14 kg of > carbon in the form of eucalyptus logs. This won't work, at least not at these numbers. Commercial gene-engineered eucalyptus in high-yield plantations generate 20 tons of eucalyptus tree per acre per year on the average high-end using 7-year rotations, with a typical tree density of 1,000 trees per acre. 2 billion trees at this density is 2 million acres and only 40 million tons of new plant matter annually. At that rate, it will take 2500 years to sequester 10e11 tonnes of carbon assuming a direct conversion. On the upside, the total area required is smaller than most Western counties, and less than the total Federal land ownership in most of those counties. The other, more problem is the water. Your plan would require something on the order of 10e7 acre-feet of water annually -- the high growth rate is fueled by heavy water consumption -- and you'll have to find a way to deliver this to western states that have annual fresh water resource capacity measured in a few million acre-feet per year. None of the water districts in the western US have anything remotely resembling 10 million acre-feet of excess capacity unless one completely drains one of the major rivers. Your best bet would probably be the midwest rather than the mountain west. Far more water, and similar population density (though not urbanized like the West). To make this work in 50 years, you would need to scale this up by a factor of 50 or so. Quite a bit of land, and making water a true rate-limiting factor. (Behold, the power of google.) j. andrew rogers From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 17:54:40 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:54:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >> With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters > >> in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. > > > >Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is > >melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool > >europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. > > I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate > is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their > lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem > really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. The people making such outlandish projections really are NOT experts in the field, they are dilletants with a political agenda who lack important capabilities of thinking logically because of their ideological blinders. I don't discuss my sources of information on this list anymore because someone here (or who reads this list online) with a socialist agenda informed their compadres in academia, who threatened my sources with losses of funding, degrees, and tenure if they cooperated with me. > > And I don't see how having less ice will avoid cooling selected parts > of the world. There's no need to go under zero to call spring, summer > and fall "cold", except maybe for residents of Calgary and Fairbanks. And given we are coming off a year where the heat in France killed 10,000 in the past summer, one would think europeans would be looking forward to a break. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 18:06:28 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the > western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this > approach is water. Water availability is synergistic with forest growth, as forests create their own climate, but they will likely need some kick starting. For example, I would support the flooding of Death Valley here in the US, as well as the Great Rift Valley in eastern Africa to help alter local weather systems. The Lake Effect from both new bodies of water (as well as their feeding local aquifers) should help act as a seed for forest growth. > As an alternative, > we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern > US: this actually makes economic sense. Western Americans may not realize it, but this has already occured. NH was once 90% cleared, it is now 90% forest. This is typical of much of the eastern states. The problem with forests really isn't in North America. Our forest growth already absorbs our emissions (which is why we didn't buy into Kyoto, because Europe didn't want us to be able to count that forest sequestration, they wanted it shared with everyone). The real problem with forestation is in Africa and Asia. Solving this means tying foreign aid to reforestation. Southern europe, Turkey, and the middle east could stand some effort in this direction as well. Too heavy reforestation WILL plunge us into an ice age, however, as the influence of CO2 on climate is steepest at lower concentrations. CO2's influence follows a diminishing returns curve with increasing concentration. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 9 18:47:42 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:47:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier><20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com><948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20050108132438.029b88b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501c4f67b$b3d35b80$9ceafb44@kevin> So if I see yu and you don;t see me, and I think I want to rob you, all I have to do is push your button and you will be entirely disabled while I clean out your pockets? Recording isn;t going to help any more than it helps now. Last I heard, the average American was recorded about 6 times per day as it is. Most robberies are recorded very well. What makes this different? Not trying to trash the idea. I actually like it. I just want to tear it apart and get all the bugs out. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hara Ra" To: "Samantha Atkins" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > Lets take this one step further: We all have a "vulnerable" button. This > can be triggered by anyone else within 10 meters or so. First shot causes > one to sit down safely and stay still for 5 minutes. Full sensory recording > on, illegal to interfere with immobilized person except to save from injury > or death. Only those with buttons can use them. Second use of button adds 5 > more minutes and applies to pusher and pushee. At this point local law > enforcement is signaled. > > If after 5 minutes, anyone pushes button, all sit down, lose consciousness, > local med team or law enforcement has to do reset. > > Strong reinforcer of being careful with ones actions.... > > At 04:02 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: > >As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long > >lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to > >learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal > >weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations > >if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a > >fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all > >possible. > > > >That said, non-lethal weapons also leave one at a disadvantage when up > >against attackers who are using lethal weapons. If they get a shot > >end then you are dead. If you get a shot in then they live to perhaps > >attack another day. It is thus to their advantage to keep attacking > >until they win as long as they have the desire to do so. > > > >- s > > ================================== > = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = > = harara at sbcglobal.net = > = Alcor North Cryomanagement = > = Alcor Advisor to Board = > = 831 429 8637 = > ================================== > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 18:50:56 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:50:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005501c4f67b$b3d35b80$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050109185056.26372.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > So if I see yu and you don;t see me, and I think I want to rob you, > all I > have to do is push your button and you will be entirely disabled > while I > clean out your pockets? Recording isn;t going to help any more than > it helps > now. Last I heard, the average American was recorded about 6 times > per day > as it is. Most robberies are recorded very well. What makes this > different? > > Not trying to trash the idea. I actually like it. I just want to tear > it apart and get all the bugs out. :-) a) the state always gets to disable whoever it wants b) there will also be a black market for hacked buttons that disable others but not a perpetrator (most likely sold by corrupt cops) Turning everyone into insta-victims is not the solution. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Sun Jan 9 19:33:46 2005 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:33:46 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> >> With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters >> >> in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. >> > >> >Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is >> >melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool >> >europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. >> >> I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate >> is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their >> lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem >> really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. > >The people making such outlandish projections really are NOT experts in >the field, they are dilletants with a political agenda who lack >important capabilities of thinking logically because of their >ideological blinders. I was speaking about both proponents and detractors of global warming. "CO2 is going to warm the planet up" or "CO2 will have no measurable effect" are both educated guesses, given the scarce data we have. >And given we are coming off a year where the heat in France killed >10,000 in the past summer, one would think europeans would be looking >forward to a break. For France, Italy and the rest of southern Europe a sudden cooling would be bad, but not fatal. The problem would be in Northen Europe, where it's already damn cold for my standards, and they would become like Canada. No offence meant to canadians, my passport lists Montreal as the city of birth :-) Alfio From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 20:16:28 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:16:28 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 Message-ID: The hydrogen economy is one step closer with the announcement by ZAP (OTC Bulletin Board: ZAPZ) and Anuvu Incorporated of the availability this year of the first hydrogen fuel cell consumer vehicle, on display now at one of the world's largest technology tradeshows, CES, in Las Vegas. ZAP calls Anuvu's fuel cell systems "fuel cell hybrids" because they run on both hydrogen and electricity, like the gasoline-hybrids currently on the market. Unlike the gasoline hybrids, the by-product of Anuvu's technology is water vapor and nitrogen, classifying it as a "zero emission vehicle." ZAP's fuel cell technology partner, Anuvu Incorporated, converted the Nissan Frontier 4-door pick-up truck on display at CES. An innovative hybrid fuel cell system powers the vehicle on hydrogen and electricity. With seating for four, a 44-cubic feet cargo bed, power windows, power door locks, and air conditioning, the truck also works like a generator providing a standard 120-volt AC source for powering external machinery and appliances, from power tools to a whole campsite. Hyundai Motor Co.'s fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV) program today unveiled its second-generation fuel cell vehicle, the Tucson FCEV, at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show. Built with lightweight, performance-boosting aluminum body components, the Tucson FCEV has a power-to-weight ratio similar to that of a conventional SUV. The Vectrix scooter, which is being made by an American company of the same name that specialises in green vehicles, boasts torque similar to that of a Ducati 900 motorbike, buzzes from 0-50mph in just 6.8sec and is capable of up to 68 miles on a single charge. Looks like they are getting the cost of fuel cell technology down to consumer market levels. Good news for saving gasoline. BillK From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 9 20:51:48 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:51:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> Hydrogen -fueled vehicles reduce point-of-use pollution. This is a very good thing in polluted urban areas. Whether or not they reduce oil usage depends on where the hydrogen comes from. I think that most hydrogen-fueled vehicles will use hydrogen generated from electricity, yes? if so, then those vehicles are in effect being powered by whatever new electrical generation capacity must be added to the power grid. I think that this new capacity will mostly be coal and oil fired plants. For oil-fired plants, we gain almost nothing, and we may actually lose. For coal-fired plants, coal-rich countries gain some energy independence, but only at the environmental cost of providing the coal. From a global warming perspective coal (pure carbon) emits the most CO2 per unit of energy, yes? Even if the vehicle is perfectly efficient, the total environmental efficiency must include all steps in the energy production chain. This is of course as true for gasoline and diesel as for hydrogen. Now I must go google for real numbers. In a very few cases the new electrical generators will be hydro, but there are few remaining places in the world for massive hydro without associated massive environmental effects. If the new generators are nuclear, there is a clear win. From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 9 21:24:42 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:24:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > > > >>On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> >> >>>>With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters >>>>in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. >>>> >>>> >>>Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is >>>melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool >>>europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. >>> >>> >>I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate >>is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their >>lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem >>really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. >> >> > >The people making such outlandish projections really are NOT experts in >the field, they are dilletants with a political agenda who lack >important capabilities of thinking logically because of their >ideological blinders. > > Your rather outlandish comments on the subject imply either that you have not read the literature on the subject or you have summarily dismissed it without comment. Both say rather unfortunate things about you and your arguments that you might want to attend to. >I don't discuss my sources of information on this list anymore because >someone here (or who reads this list online) with a socialist agenda >informed their compadres in academia, who threatened my sources with >losses of funding, degrees, and tenure if they cooperated with me. > > > Oooh. Secret sources of True Dependable information that can't be revealed because the e-v-i-l socialists will get them. Come on Mike. Surely you can seek how weak that line is. - samantha From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 21:48:08 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:48:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> References: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:24:42 -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Your rather outlandish comments on the subject imply either that you > have not read the literature on the subject or you have summarily > dismissed it without comment. Both say rather unfortunate things about > you and your arguments that you might want to attend to. > > Oooh. Secret sources of True Dependable information that can't be > revealed because the e-v-i-l socialists will get them. Come on Mike. > Surely you can see how weak that line is. > I think Mike's secret source of information might be the new Michael Crichton novel 'State of Fear' Quote: The odious villains in Michael Crichton's new thriller, the folks (as President Bush might put it) who kill, maim and terrorize, aren't members of al-Qaida or any other jihadi movement. They aren't Bondian bad guys like Goldfinger, Dr. No or Scaramanga. They aren't drug lords or gang members or associates of Tony Soprano's. No, the evil ones in "State of Fear" are tree-hugging environmentalists, believers in global warming, proponents of the Kyoto Protocol. Their surveillance operatives drive politically correct, hybrid Priuses; their hit men use an exotic, poisonous Australian octopus as their weapon of choice. Their unwitting (and sometimes, witting) allies are -- natch! -- the liberal media, trial lawyers, Hollywood celebrities, mainstream environmental groups (such as the Sierra Club and the Audubon Society) and other blue-state apparatchiks. End quote. Sounds just like Mike to me. ;) BillK From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 9 21:58:56 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:58:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments-GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <51BAF7B0-6265-11D9-BC61-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <001c01c4f696$6d997f80$6401a8c0@mtrainier> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of J. Andrew Rogers Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 9:39 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments-GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:28 PM, spike wrote: > Can this be produced? A 10-15 year old eucalyptus globulus > is about something over meter diameter and fifteen meters tall, > so for single digit precision we can estimate it at 10 cubic > meters of wood, so we would need 1E10 such logs. Can we > produce ten billion of these? I think we can. Imagine > them on 20 meter centers, so a couple thousand of these > can be produced on each square km, so a couple good sized western > U.S. states, the obscure ones that aren't good for much > of anything and no one ever heard of anyway (such as Wyoming and > Utah) is close enough to a million square km there, two billion > trees per generation of 10-15 years, it would only take > 5 generations (50 to 75 years) to generate that 1e14 kg of > carbon in the form of eucalyptus logs. J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >This won't work, at least not at these numbers. Commercial gene-engineered eucalyptus in high-yield plantations generate 20 tons of eucalyptus tree per acre per year on the average high-end using 7-year rotations, with a typical tree density of 1,000 trees per acre. 2 billion trees at this density is 2 million acres and only 40 million tons of new plant matter annually. At that rate, it will take 2500 years to sequester 10e11 tonnes of carbon assuming a direct conversion. On the upside, the total area required is smaller than most Western counties, and less than the total Federal land ownership in most of those counties... James your numbers agree with mine better than I would have expected since I was using ballpark numbers to one digit without googling anything. A square km is about 250 acres and I was assuming a million square km, so thats 2.5e8 acres, so with your numbers of 1000 trees per acre, thats 2.5e11 trees and at 20 tonnes of plant matter per acre year, 2.5e8 acres is 5e9 tonnes per year (a square meter of wood is close enough to a tonne for this level of calculation) to if we need 1e11 tonnes of wood, thats 20 years. So actually your googled numbers are more optimistic than my wags. Considering that wood isn't *all* carbon, my original 50-75 yrs is probably close enough. >The other, more problem is the water. Your plan would require something on the order of 10e7 acre-feet of water annually -- the high growth rate is fueled by heavy water consumption -- and you'll have to find a way to deliver this to western states that have annual fresh water resource capacity measured in a few million acre-feet per year. Of course I do agree that it does have its costs. It will require us to divert the Columbia and/or the Sacramento rivers, but that will need to happen anyway eventually, as it did with the Colorado River (that one doesn't flow to the sea anymore, it just ends near it). I did google on land areas of Utah and Wyoming. Together they are only about half a million square km, and we would need to leave some space for that school with the football team, whats it called, Brigham Young U. (Any school with a football team is an actual school and should be preserved.) So it would take perhaps 50 years by James' numbers, or a century or two by mine, or if we really think there is a hurry we could toss in Arizona and New Mexico, two more states which we are unclear on what they are actually good for, if anything. The other, more problem is the water. Your plan would require something on the order of 10e7 acre-feet of water annually -- the high growth rate is fueled by heavy water consumption -- and you'll have to find a way to deliver this to western states that have annual fresh water resource capacity measured in a few million acre-feet per year... Ja but I have already said too many times on this list that humanity must stop throwing fresh water into the sea. It looks cool and the salmon love it, but it that practice is too stunningly wasteful to even comprehend. Fresh water is valuable; we have enough of it to do some really cool stuff if we choose to do it. By sequestering carbon as logs in Arctica, we have an additional advantage of being able to reverse the carbon sink, should we later decide that it is a bad idea to draw down the CO2 level in the atmosphere (which I suspect we will eventually conclude). I imagine that a CO2 level around 500 ppm is optimal for most lifeforms, with a slightly higher oxygen level to go with it, perhaps 22 percentish. spike From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 9 22:42:45 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:42:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 03:51:48PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > I think that most hydrogen-fueled vehicles will use hydrogen generated > from electricity, yes? No, it's fossil fuels reforming, most likely onboard (because cryogenic fuel or pressurized hydrogen storage is pretty much insane in small vehicles). Why bother, I wonder, direct-alcohol fuel cells don't need no steenkin reformers (of course methanol reforms completely cleanly). > if so, then those vehicles are in effect being powered by whatever new > electrical generation Even if it's just EVs, they're ZEV locally (energy plant is high-efficiency, and exhaust scrubbed), and are more efficient than ICE overall, if properly designed (a large if, admittedly, if one considers what today passes for an EV on the road, yecch). I'm not sure anything could beat a composite-frame Li-ion EV for daily short commutes, right now. You'd recharge them overnight, or when parking at work (could be from a PV array, or from night nuke power, which is cheap). Of course, a fuel cell vehicle could actually power an entire home when not cruising. People at home while no car in the garage/lot is pretty pathological for a typical American household, anyway. > capacity must be added to the power grid. I think that this new capacity > will mostly be > coal and oil fired plants. For oil-fired plants, we gain almost nothing, > and we may actually lose. > For coal-fired plants, coal-rich countries gain some energy > independence, but only at the environmental > cost of providing the coal. From a global warming perspective coal (pure > carbon) emits the most > CO2 per unit of energy, yes? Vehicular CO2 emission is completely irrelevant in comparison to other anthropogenic greenhouse gases. > Even if the vehicle is perfectly efficient, the total environmental > efficiency must include all steps in the > energy production chain. This is of course as true for gasoline and > diesel as for hydrogen. The issue with gas cars is particulate/noxious exhaust and overall system-inherent inefficiency of an ICE. > Now I must go google for real numbers. > > In a very few cases the new electrical generators will be hydro, but > there are few remaining places > in the world for massive hydro without associated massive environmental > effects. If the new generators > are nuclear, there is a clear win. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 9 23:59:41 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:59:41 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 03:51:48PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>if so, then those vehicles are in effect being powered by whatever new >>electrical generation >> >> > >Even if it's just EVs, they're ZEV locally (energy plant is high-efficiency, >and exhaust scrubbed), and are more efficient than ICE overall, if properly >designed (a large if, admittedly, if one considers what today passes for an >EV on the road, yecch). > >I'm not sure anything could beat a composite-frame Li-ion EV for daily short >commutes, right now. You'd recharge them overnight, or when parking at work >(could be from a PV array, or from night nuke power, which is cheap). > > > OK, this finally begins to make qualitative sense. I don't know when/if it will make quantitative sense. Forget the "hydrogen economy" because there are far too many technical hurdles and there is far to high an infrastructure investment. Use "battery" powered EVs, which can be developed with no major new fuel infrastructure. Charge them up from the power grid, but use off-peak power. The real cost of off-peak power is a lot lower than peak power, and the real problem with using off-peak power has always been storage. But to use an EV, you already had to purchase storage. Where base power is provided by nukes or hydro, this is a huge win. Where base power is fossil fuel, it's less of a win, but still a win. In addition to all of the above, we have the possibility of shifting a higher percentage of the power from "base" generators to "peak" generators. As an increasing percentage of the power goes to EVs, the power company can depend on the ability to shut off the EV chargers temporarily to meet peak loads. This also allows the power companies to make better use of unreliable sources such as wind or solar, at least to some extent. This has little to do with fuel cells, except to the extent that a fuel cell might be a rechargeable battery. With this arrangement, the running cost of EV is driven by the cost of new base power, not new peak power. There is one piece of required fuel infrastructure: the ability to purchase "off-peak only" power in the home. But most of this infrastructure already exists. It's basically a really cheap computer that needs to be added to the home charging station. Many power companies already place signals on their power lines to temporarily deactivate equipment (hot water heaters and air conditioners) on a rotating based to lower the peaks. This signalling infrastructure can be used, probably without modification, to control the off-peak charging stations. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 00:24:25 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:24:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050110002426.33544.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote:> > Oooh. Secret sources of True Dependable information that can't be > revealed because the e-v-i-l socialists will get them. Come on Mike. > > Surely you can seek how weak that line is. If one of them were not a person who is close and personal, who was threatened with loss of their post-grad position, I'd think it weak. It is, however, a fact. There is nothing that is too low for a socialist to stoop to to get their way. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 01:25:19 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:25:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> Message-ID: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> From a productive point of view add trees and plants with economic value. Ecology has to pay its way for being more labour intensive. Black Walnut and Oak for long term (50 year ) growth. Poplar to cut wind and harvest at 3-10 years depending on your level of water and nutrient inputs. Hawthorn, buffaloberry, acacia, larch, chokecherry, raspberry, blackberry , for nutraceuticals. We've done that over the last 15 years. There is perennial wheat , hemp and other alternative additions which would turn a suburban acreage into a useful place that is still people friendly. Forages that can be mower mulched into nutraceuticals for people or pets are better than just plain grass. Of course, the factors rainfall/water and upper/lower temperatures will limit some choices. There are mycorrhizal additions to make most any soil work workable. In areas such as ours trees are limited by any competition for water by surrounding plants. You have to create your ecosystem in stages. Dan Clemmensen wrote: > BillK wrote: > >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800, spike wrote: >> >> >>> Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. >>> >>> >> >> >> There are already many 'plant a tree' campaigns all around the world. >> For one example, see: >> >> "In our Global ReLeaf? campaign our goal is to help people around the >> world plant one billion new trees in the next five years. In the >> United States the goal of our Trees Across America is to help get one >> tree planted for every American by 2007." >> (US population - about 300 million) >> >> >> > Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the > western US into > tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this approach is water. > As an alternative, > we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern > US: this actually makes > economic sense. We can also encourage trees rather than grass in the > suburbs of the eastern US. > My house sits on 2 acres, 1.5 acres is wooded. This was treeless > farmland until about 1950. > The natural progression moves from soft-wood through quick-growing > hardwood to slow-growing > dense hardwood. My gut feeling is that without any management at all > this progression sequesters > progressively more carbon per acre. If I desired to sequester carbon > more aggressively, I would > simply collect most of the fallen leaves annually: This is done in > denser suburbs in my area. Unfortunately, > the leaf collecting authorities then turn around and give the leaves > away to gardeners, etc., who in a > mass act of environmental abuse then encourage them to rot and release > the sequestered carbon back > into the atmosphere! Some people have no respect for the environment. > > The effective re-forestation of the US east is a very real phenomenon. > If we could achieve re-forestation > of other areas that were de-forested by civilization, we would > sequester carbon more easily than we can by > attempting to build forests in semi-arid locations. The prime > candidate areas include Greece, Rome, areas of > India and China, and much of Europe, all of which were heavily > forested before human intervention. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 01:38:47 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:38:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> A solar energy satellite-based redirection project to intensify solar energy availablity in the mid and north latitudes might become a backup just in case we get our first shot of rebound cold before we get the polar caps sucessfully melted and learn to control the new more dynamic ecosystem. One of the most dangerous things today is the use of annual species for ag production. If some disaster or crisis removed the farmer from the picure worldwide for more than 2 years the seed necessary to replace the crops could be nonexistant. Moving the ag production genetics into perennial species is one way to alter the CO2 use VS creation ratio. Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the >>western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this >>approach is water. >> >> > >Water availability is synergistic with forest growth, as forests create >their own climate, but they will likely need some kick starting. For >example, I would support the flooding of Death Valley here in the US, >as well as the Great Rift Valley in eastern Africa to help alter local >weather systems. The Lake Effect from both new bodies of water (as well >as their feeding local aquifers) should help act as a seed for forest >growth. > > > >>As an alternative, >>we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern >>US: this actually makes economic sense. >> >> > >Western Americans may not realize it, but this has already occured. NH >was once 90% cleared, it is now 90% forest. This is typical of much of >the eastern states. The problem with forests really isn't in North >America. Our forest growth already absorbs our emissions (which is why >we didn't buy into Kyoto, because Europe didn't want us to be able to >count that forest sequestration, they wanted it shared with everyone). > >The real problem with forestation is in Africa and Asia. Solving this >means tying foreign aid to reforestation. Southern europe, Turkey, and >the middle east could stand some effort in this direction as well. > >Too heavy reforestation WILL plunge us into an ice age, however, as the >influence of CO2 on climate is steepest at lower concentrations. CO2's >influence follows a diminishing returns curve with increasing concentration. > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? >http://my.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Jan 10 01:41:13 2005 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:41:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: (1/9/05 23:42) Eugen Leitl wrote: > >No, it's fossil fuels reforming, most likely onboard (because cryogenic fuel >or pressurized hydrogen storage is pretty much insane in small vehicles). > >Why bother, I wonder, direct-alcohol fuel cells don't need no steenkin >reformers (of course methanol reforms completely cleanly). The problem is that the catalyst membranes used to rip the protons off of light alcohols are prohibitively expensive for large wattage applications. Works fine in Toshiba's little cell phone fuel cells (on the order of a few mm^2), but I doubt that they've been able to manufacture more than a handful of membranes large enough for a car. IMO, DMFC catalysts represent one of the defining materials engineering problems of this decade. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Jan 10 01:49:08 2005 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:49:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> Message-ID: (1/9/05 18:59) Dan Clemmensen wrote: >Forget the "hydrogen economy" because there are far too many technical >hurdles and >there is far to high an infrastructure investment. Use "battery" powered >EVs, which can be >developed with no major new fuel infrastructure. Charge them up from the >power grid, >but use off-peak power. The real cost of off-peak power is a lot lower >than peak power, >and the real problem with using off-peak power has always been storage. >But to use an >EV, you already had to purchase storage. > >Where base power is provided by nukes or hydro, this is a huge win. >Where base power >is fossil fuel, it's less of a win, but still a win. > >In addition to all of the above, we have the possibility of shifting a >higher percentage of >the power from "base" generators to "peak" generators. As an increasing >percentage of the >power goes to EVs, the power company can depend on the ability to shut >off the EV chargers >temporarily to meet peak loads. This also allows the power companies to >make better use >of unreliable sources such as wind or solar, at least to some extent. > >This has little to do with fuel cells, except to the extent that a fuel >cell might be a rechargeable >battery. Don't forget that there is a huge untapped energy source in our waste stream. From biodiesel to TDP, tapping this energy remains a closed loop (since we're adding no carbon that has been deeply sequestered, i.e.out of play for more than thousands of years, back into the carbon cycle.) Until we make direct alcohol cells efficient and cheap, fuel cell technologies are going to be prey to the infrastructure problem you mention. But the hurdle isn't as high as you believe it is. There is no fundamental science necessary to be solved for this; it lies in the realm of engineering now. That doesn't mean, "expect it soon," but it is a hopeful sign. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Jan 10 01:50:38 2005 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:50:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110002426.33544.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (1/9/05 16:24) Mike Lorrey wrote: >There is nothing that is too low for a socialist >to stoop to to get their way. Neither is there for a neoconservative... B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Jan 10 05:27:25 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:27:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Extropian Agroforestry Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Trees From a productive point of view add trees and plants with economic value. ... There is perennial wheat, hemp and other alternative additions which would turn a suburban acreage into a useful place that is still people friendly... Hemp? Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? {8^D spike From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Jan 10 05:36:35 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:36:35 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 11:17 AM 07/01/05 -0600, you wrote: >>This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well worth >>passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us who are >>not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the lot of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. Keith Henson From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 10 08:12:06 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:12:06 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> Keith, I am curious. What was your opinion before on such ethics (not to mention whether it is a worthwhile use of the computational resources) and what is it now? If, on either side of your chance of heart, you would subject them to a simulated Rapture, would they be on the "losing" or "winning" end of same? :-) I would be more tempted to run them through a sim where humanity destroys itself but before they die they understand utterly that their own erroneous beliefs and those of their siblings in spirit, were responsible and that their beliefs were in fact totally bogus. No need for upload though. A vivid set of induced dreams should do the trick. - s Keith Henson wrote: > At 11:17 AM 07/01/05 -0600, you wrote: > >>> This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well >>> worth passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of >>> us who are not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, >>> won't... >> > > I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the > lot of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. > > Keith Henson > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 10 14:35:14 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:35:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050110143514.GD9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 08:41:13PM -0500, Brent Neal wrote: > >Why bother, I wonder, direct-alcohol fuel cells don't need no steenkin > >reformers (of course methanol reforms completely cleanly). > > > The problem is that the catalyst membranes used to rip the > protons off of light alcohols are prohibitively expensive > for large wattage applications. Works fine in Toshiba's This is a current chemistry/engineering limitation. There's no physical reason for having expensive catalysts/high proton mobility membrane materials. > little cell phone fuel cells (on the order of a few mm^2), > but I doubt that they've been able to manufacture more > than a handful of membranes large enough for a car. How much car do you need to move a single primate? Right now an SUV is somewhere between 2 and 3 tons, which is ridiculous. > IMO, DMFC catalysts represent one of the defining materials > engineering problems of this decade. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Jan 10 15:00:12 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:00:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Biosphere 2 For Sale Message-ID: http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/business/55319.php Biosphere 2: A little world is up for sale By Thomas Stauffer ARIZONA DAILY STAR For sale: 137,000-square-foot building with stunning views of the Catalina and Tortolita mountains through 6,500 windows. The Texas company that built and owns the Biosphere 2 Center near Oracle announced Monday that it has formally put up for sale the 3.1-acre glass terrarium and 70 other buildings on the 140-acre campus. "This is one of the most spectacular properties in Southern Arizona - if not the most spectacular - so we think it should attract some interest," said Christopher T. Bannon, general manager of Decisions Investment Corp. of Fort Worth, which owns Biosphere 2. -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The best presents don't come in boxes." --Hobbes From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 10 15:21:33 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:21:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 07:38:47PM -0600, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > A solar energy satellite-based redirection project to intensify solar > energy availablity in the mid and north latitudes Allright, what's the price tag to launch 100 kT to some 2 Mm orbit, and even assuming pure hydrogen/oxygen motors, how much havoc will this wreck to the atmosphere? I mean, really. > might become a backup just in case we get our first shot of rebound cold > before we get the polar caps sucessfully melted and > learn to control the new more dynamic ecosystem. We don't know what we're doing, but we'll just double the effort. > One of the most dangerous things today is the use of annual species for > ag production. One of the most idiotic thing is mismanagement of existing biosystems. E.g. if you try to prevent periodic burns in SoCal, you only accrue combustibles, and the eventually resulting conflagration will be much harder to control. > If some disaster or crisis removed the farmer from the picure worldwide > for more than > 2 years the seed necessary to replace the crops could be nonexistant. > Moving the ag production genetics into perennial species is one way to > alter the CO2 use VS creation ratio. Want to reduce CO2, invest in building insulation. And passive solar. What is government there for if not to enforce unpopular decisions? Giving hefty tax breaks for this should be sufficient motivation. > > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > > > > >>Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the > >>western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this > >>approach is water. > >> > >> > > > >Water availability is synergistic with forest growth, as forests create > >their own climate, but they will likely need some kick starting. For > >example, I would support the flooding of Death Valley here in the US, > >as well as the Great Rift Valley in eastern Africa to help alter local > >weather systems. The Lake Effect from both new bodies of water (as well > >as their feeding local aquifers) should help act as a seed for forest > >growth. > > > > > > > >>As an alternative, > >>we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern > >>US: this actually makes economic sense. > >> > >> > > > >Western Americans may not realize it, but this has already occured. NH > >was once 90% cleared, it is now 90% forest. This is typical of much of > >the eastern states. The problem with forests really isn't in North > >America. Our forest growth already absorbs our emissions (which is why > >we didn't buy into Kyoto, because Europe didn't want us to be able to > >count that forest sequestration, they wanted it shared with everyone). > > > >The real problem with forestation is in Africa and Asia. Solving this > >means tying foreign aid to reforestation. Southern europe, Turkey, and > >the middle east could stand some effort in this direction as well. > > > >Too heavy reforestation WILL plunge us into an ice age, however, as the > >influence of CO2 on climate is steepest at lower concentrations. CO2's > >influence follows a diminishing returns curve with increasing > >concentration. > > > >===== > >Mike Lorrey > >Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > >http://my.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 16:14:51 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:14:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: > <>On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 07:38:47PM -0600, Extropian Agroforestry > Ventures Inc. wrote: > <>A solar energy satellite-based redirection project to intensify solar > energy availablity in the mid and north latitudes > > >Allright, what's the price tag to launch 100 kT to some 2 Mm orbit, and even >assuming pure hydrogen/oxygen motors, how much havoc will this wreck to the >atmosphere? > >I mean, really. > > Perhaps moon based manufacturing launched by mass driver or space elavator. This would be a good reason to get manned lunar bases built and operating. The first uses could beam energy back to the moon for manufacturing/smelting and become a resource If required later on for earth based applications such as climate modifications. > <>might become a backup just in case we get our first shot of rebound > cold > before we get the polar caps sucessfully melted and > learn to control the new more dynamic ecosystem. > > >We don't know what we're doing, but we'll just double the effort. > > The rate of knowlege about climate mechanisms will continue to appreciate over the time required to develop and deploy a modification system. If computational capacity continues to increase, the systems required to model global environment modulation simulations will be developed in the next 10 -15 years. > > > >>One of the most dangerous things today is the use of annual species for >>ag production. >> >> > >One of the most idiotic thing is mismanagement of existing biosystems. > >E.g. if you try to prevent periodic burns in SoCal, you only accrue >combustibles, and the eventually resulting conflagration will be much harder >to control. > > This mismanagement is more an economic issue than environmental. Excess combustibles for example would not accrue if the species were harvested on a rotational basis. If human labour is unjustified, then perhaps John Deere might develop prototype robotic harvesters under DARPA funding which would have eventual civilian biomass harvesting applications. The entire ag economy is driven by economics that only plan 2-5 years into the future....given the BSE experience here in Canada I should have said 1 year in advance because the ag economy simply does not plan for change. > <>If some disaster or crisis removed the farmer from the picure worldwide > for more than > 2 years the seed necessary to replace the crops could be nonexistant. > Moving the ag production genetics into perennial species is one way to > alter the CO2 use VS creation ratio. > > >Want to reduce CO2, invest in building insulation. And passive solar. > >What is government there for if not to enforce unpopular decisions? Giving >hefty tax breaks for this should be sufficient motivation. > > > This last round of energy price increases once worked entirely through the economy should produce a new round of conservation measures. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 17:21:01 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:21:01 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net><20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> Message-ID: <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging station? From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 17:22:35 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:22:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050110172235.47949.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > The economist is pretty good example of mainstream > US media Despite being based in the UK? From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 17:26:41 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:26:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107150443.87300.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110172641.50683.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people > do it all the time. > It is only the public perception that it can't be > done that creates a > perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, > as the public is > also convinced that machine guns are illegal. > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > specially checked > luggage. "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for the past few years. And if there are any special procedures required for a certain item, that's another inconvenience. From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 10 17:45:28 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:45:28 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110113914.01a059b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > >Perhaps moon based manufacturing launched by mass driver or space elavator. I'd been under the impression that a lunar elevator wouldn't work; it'd be too long or something. However I see another view at http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/lunar_space_elevator.html M5, which he calculates would only weigh 6,800 kg for a full cable that would support a lifting capacity of 200 kg at the base. This is well within the capabilities of the most powerful rockets supplied by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Arianespace. One launch is [all] it takes to put an elevator on the Moon. And once the elevator was installed, you could start reinforcing it with additional materials, like glass and boron, which could be manufactured on the Moon > etc. Less orbital junk, harder for crazies to damage it, run it with robots, etc. Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 18:22:17 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:22:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > And why is it that bright people on this list have > mostly only harped > on points they disagree with or that play to their > favored positions > while missing the urgency of the inmates having > considerable influence > in the earth's only remaining superpower? I would > think there are more > important matters at hand. Or is this sort of > response just > diversion in the face of that which one feels > powerless to change? You may have nailed it with that last sentence. What can we do, to subvert the power of the theists? One wonders if a "God through technology" meme might fly. That is, connect the belief that "God will provide for His chosen" with the abundance that technologically advanced areas - both nations, and people within nations (as in those who embrace and develop tech, as opposed to luddites) - tend to have. Implication: accepting technology, and humanity's power over nature, *is* accepting God's plan for His creations (thus, even those who don't believe in God can be seen as doing His work). Further implication: "Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as viewed by different people with different takes on it ("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the same event). Might this convert some of the fundies to our side? Possible problem: one of the appeals of luddite religions is that they excuse, even praise, intellectual sloth. Embracing new technologies requires intellectual rigor. If this causes excess discomfort, this would cause people to reject the meme, and possibly seek to actively counter it (say, by becoming even more luddite and excusing it by claiming that technology is anti-God). From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 10 18:39:07 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:39:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:22 AM 1/10/2005 -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: >Further implication: >"Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as >viewed by different people with different takes on it >("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to >describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the >same event). Aargh! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological singularity is just what is expected to happen when specific technologies attain a certain degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is a mythical state of spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian belief system that includes a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus to judge the just and the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist foolishness. DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 18:53:15 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:53:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050110172641.50683.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's not the public's fault they are asses, they are the victims of public educational mediocrity, (which is to say education in the overall sense of the word). One thing I've never understood is: if by any objective measure the K-12 school system is so bad then why force the poor little wretches to school at all? Why not let them stay at home to be homeschooled, or just learn a skill/craft? Life is still quite short so why send children to schools where the illiteracy rate is unacceptably high & the children pick on each other? Lets have vouchers not only for private schools but also for homeshooling --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people > do it all the time. > It is only the public perception that it can't be > done that creates a > perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, > as the public is > also convinced that machine guns are illegal. > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > specially checked > luggage. "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for the past few years. And if there are any special procedures required for a certain item, that's another inconvenience. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 19:11:58 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:11:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are the parents themselves..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Ned Late To: ExI chat list Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic It's not the public's fault they are asses, they are the victims of public educational mediocrity, (which is to say education in the overall sense of the word). One thing I've never understood is: if by any objective measure the K-12 school system is so bad then why force the poor little wretches to school at all? Why not let them stay at home to be homeschooled, or just learn a skill/craft? Life is still quite short so why send children to schools where the illiteracy rate is unacceptably high & the children pick on each other? Lets have vouchers not only for private schools but also for homeshooling --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people > do it all the time. > It is only the public perception that it can't be > done that creates a > perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, > as the public is > also convinced that machine guns are illegal. > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > specially checked > luggage. "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for the past few years. And if there are any special procedures required for a certain item, that's another inconvenience. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 19:21:15 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:21:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050110192115.34617.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological > singularity is just > what is expected to happen when specific > technologies attain a certain > degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is > a mythical state of > spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian > belief system that includes > a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus > to judge the just and > the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist > foolishness. DON'T GET > THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT > THE UNIVERSE!! It's not the universe I want to short-circuit. It's the anti-technology ideas. Besides, who says that the two actually have to be the same? I'm just suggesting convincing some Christians that they are the same, to get them on our side. What happens after that...well, once they are on our side, they might be willing to interpret the Singularity (if and when it happens) as Rapture even if they don't actually have any evidence of the religious trappings occurring, no? From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 19:25:56 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:25:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> How wiil educators handle smart-drug enabled kids who come to school to get the information acquisition done in say 6 years instead of the ordinary 12. Could kids spend 6 years in compulsory grade school academics and the other 6 in University level work all funded under the public education umbrella? An extra 6 years of useful life in kids 20's is thus created. Will law demand dumbing down to norm? If enhanced learners are kicked out of school for using mental performance enhancers and opt for home schooling will drug testing be mandated? From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 19:27:13 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. It's not so much a question of school financing to me, it's treating the children as human. Rather than be sentenced to thirteen years of bad schooling I might rather be executed, thirteen years is a long time (think of 1992-2005). Look, even if Scott Peterson will be on death row for thirteen years, at least he gets three hots and a cot; he gets a private cell plus maybe cable. > Because in many cases the only things dumber than > the educators are the parents themselves..... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 19:28:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050110192859.22532.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > So who wants to start work developing a home > solar/wind combo re-charging > station? Home solar/wind combo can be purchased. So can home recharging stations (though the exact model depends on the make of car you're getting). Installation of both typically includes wiring it to your house's electrical system, such that either element will still operate without the other (say, if you remove the other element, or it somehow becomes disabled). In short, it's already been developed. There is some room for development to bring down the price/bring up the efficiency, but that's different. From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 19:31:20 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:31:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050110193120.99233.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Wouldn't be surprising, would it? Good argument for abortion :-/ > If enhanced learners are kicked out of school for > using mental > performance enhancers > and opt for home schooling will drug testing be > mandated? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 19:49:15 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:49:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > How wiil educators handle smart-drug enabled kids > who come to school to > get the information > acquisition done in say 6 years instead of the > ordinary 12. One doesn't even need to look to the future to see that. Look up "gifted children" today: kids who, for whatever reason, really can absorb the information years faster. Much of the time, they are given the info at the same rate, leading to extreme boredom and resulting problems. (Some are even misdiagnosed as learning disabled or ADHD, because they don't pay attention in class - because they don't see a reason to pay attention when they can solve the problems so easily, for example, but that often gets left out of the diagnosis.) Some such kids do get to skip grades, so they get out in less than 12 years - but some of those children have reported social-based unhappiness with this solution, e.g. when one's grade-peers are eligible for driver's licenses but oneself is not, or problems with being at different stages of puberty. (Disclaimer: I myself skipped a grade, and I never ran into problems like that. Then again, I get the impression my social life was not the norm - for instance, I was one of the few at my school who ignored cliques and made friends in all groups.) From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 20:00:29 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110200029.49707.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK schools better than US counterparts at that time? >Then again, I get the impression my social > life was not the norm - for instance, I was one of > the > few at my school who ignored cliques and made > friends > in all groups.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 20:06:28 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110200029.49707.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110200629.37849.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> (I forget if this will be my sixth or seventh post today; either way, I'd better stop here.) --- Ned Late wrote: > Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK > schools > better than US counterparts at that time? Nope. Palo Alto, California. Silicon Valley, USA. From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 10 20:14:42 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:14:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <41E2E232.2020601@mac.com> Kevin Freels wrote: > Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are > the parents themselves..... Agreed BUT at least in that case the damage is only to their own offspring instead of mass conditioning everyone whose parents can't afford private school AFTER paying for the mass youth indoctrination camps. - s From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 10 20:25:25 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:25:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110192115.34617.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110192115.34617.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E2E4B5.7010709@mac.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Damien Broderick wrote: > > >>It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological >>singularity is just >>what is expected to happen when specific >>technologies attain a certain >>degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is >>a mythical state of >>spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian >>belief system that includes >>a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus >>to judge the just and >>the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist >>foolishness. DON'T GET >>THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT >>THE UNIVERSE!! >> >> > >It's not the universe I want to short-circuit. It's >the anti-technology ideas. > >Besides, who says that the two actually have to be the >same? I'm just suggesting convincing some Christians >that they are the same, to get them on our side. What >happens after that...well, once they are on our side, >they might be willing to interpret the Singularity (if >and when it happens) as Rapture even if they don't >actually have any evidence of the religious trappings >occurring, no? > > That would be lying. Why do that when the case is already quite strong for all who are honest? On the technological side we have the real possibility of cures for all disease including aging itself, indefinitely long lifespans, abundance undreamt of for all and most any other "milk and honey" in the sweet by-and-by stuff that most western religions say awaits you after death. For all the Christians and other believers who really are filled with compassion for humanity and caring for their own it is obvious that this "great gift" must be welcomed with both hands and with songs of praise on their lips. If they wanted to dress things up as something like "God has heard our prayers and sent the answer in the form of sufficient intelligence to build technology to meet every need and dry every tear" or whatever then let them do that, not us. If they want to pretend that the second coming of Christ is the coming of an FAI or whatever then I am sure they will do so. If the "new heaven and new earth" is what happens after Singularity, upload or whatever in their minds then great. But we have no business claiming this is so and it muddies up our thinking and understanding to fool around that way. At least it muddied up mine when I toyed with such. I disagree with Damien on the entire fundamentalist package deal being essential to what Rapture means though. Christians are infinitely flexible in finding "other interpretations" thatn Biblical inerrancy, a 6000 year old earth and other such pure nut-case idiocy. - samantha From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 20:25:19 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:25:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <41E2E232.2020601@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050110202519.56532.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It could be now that corporal punishments (except for punishments administered by students to each other) have been ended, mental caning is the new norm. --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Agreed BUT at least in that case the damage is only > to their own > offspring instead of mass conditioning everyone > whose parents can't > afford private school AFTER paying for the mass > youth indoctrination camps. > - s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:43:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:43:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050110172641.50683.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110214354.35559.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > > specially checked luggage. > > "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't > fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for > the past few years. And if there are any special > procedures required for a certain item, that's another > inconvenience. That is what you get for tolerating an unconstitutional FAA. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:50:59 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050110215059.15520.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:22 AM 1/10/2005 -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > >Further implication: > >"Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as > >viewed by different people with different takes on it > >("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to > >describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the > >same event). > > Aargh! > NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! > > It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological singularity is > just what is expected to happen when specific technologies attain a > certain degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is a > mythical state of spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian > belief system that includes a world 6000 years old, the physical > return of Jesus to judge the just and the damnable, and other > literalist fundamentalist foolishness. DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES > CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! Rapture is a mythical state of *some* kind of transcendance that is described by many more than just Christian theology, nor does it depend on an Earth created in 4004 BC. Refusing to hijack the rapture meme is literally refusing to take necessary action in supplanting the prescientific mythocracy. Just as replacing Christmas with Newtonmas (as Christmas replaced the Roman Saturnalia), supplanting christian theological precepts with rational transhumanist ones is necessary to win the memetic war. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:53:17 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:53:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110215317.72998.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > It's not the public's fault they are asses, they are the victims of > public educational mediocrity, (which is to say education in the > overall sense of the word). One thing I've never understood is: if by > any objective measure the K-12 school system is so bad then why force > the poor little wretches to school at all? Why not let them stay at > home to be homeschooled, or just learn a skill/craft? Life is still > quite short so why send children to schools where the illiteracy > rate is unacceptably high & the children pick on each other? > Lets have vouchers not only for private schools but also for > homeshooling Fine by me. Conversely I'd offer property tax breaks to parents who homeschool. The average cost of homeschooling a child is $95.00 per year, according to the US Dept of Ed's own study. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:55:08 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:55:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050110215509.36372.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are > the parents themselves..... Which isn't hard to achieve, considering that teachers have the lowest average SAT scores of any profession requiring a 4 year degree.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 21:25:09 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:25:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tsunami surfing In-Reply-To: <41E094B1.6050507@neopax.com> References: <41E094B1.6050507@neopax.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110132436.028d52f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> A real 'croc' of a story here.... >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4153109.stm > >A German, the manager of a quarry, wrote his recollections of being swept >away. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 21:48:38 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:48:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110134150.028997b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Over post limit, so pasted together: ==================================== Minor Quibble: Wood is polymerized sugar, around 40% by weight Carbon. While we are on this nit, CO2 has 12 + 16 + 16 mol wt 44, or 27% carbon. Case of mutually cancelling errors here... >Wood is nearly all carbon (assuming one digit precision), so about >1e11 cubic meters of wood must be produced, bundled and >sunk in the sea or squirreled away in Antarctica somewhere. I once saw a space photo, of sub saharan Africa, where 100 km^2 was fenced off from grazing, and much more vegetation present. How to protect 10^6 km^2 of forest for the 100 years for it to come mature and keep it so is a real challenge...... (oops, just solved problem: forest Texas!) ============================================== I saw a photo of Liquid CO2 - in a beaker at 1000 meters depth. Many applications trap their CO2 and either put into old gas wells and the like, or are considering packaging and putting on the sea bottoms. Kinds skips the area and time needed to do via trees.... Spike: If the wood does not get waterlogged enough to sink, >then we could allow it to drift in the Pacific >current until it gets into the Southern hemisphere, >at which time the bundles could perhaps be towed >to Antarctica, where they would be pulled from >the water and hauled inland, where it would take >centuries to decay, for the organisms which are >adapted for such tasks would surely be unable to >survive in that bitterly cold climate. ==================================================== I recall an ice age theory which had the Arctic Ocean warm, and its precip on the continents made the ice sheets. Warm, precipitious icy winters, becoming all winter year round. > Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing > > tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus > > increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may > > prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving > > southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 22:04:15 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:04:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110113914.01a059b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> <6.1.1.1.0.20050110113914.01a059b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110140127.02903148@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I recall from L5 days some diagrams of L5 based orbits - they are huge, look like kidneybeans 100,000 Km in width. This suggests the forces which maintain L5 orbits are quite small, and if big counterweight is used, the orbits are still large with a thread attached to the moon. I prefer the massdriver approach, well studied in the 80s. At 09:45 AM 1/10/2005, you wrote: >>Perhaps moon based manufacturing launched by mass driver or space elavator. > >I'd been under the impression that a lunar elevator wouldn't work; it'd be >too long or something. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 22:09:41 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:09:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110140645.028e7308@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I learned early on as a gifted child that the prejudice towards same is as bad as racism. Lotsa money for the losers, ignore the winners. Once I saw this, public education lost me totally. I never ever vote for edu bond issues, which make taxes, but does not help the gifted. Now shall I rant: Compulsory uplifting for all! >One doesn't even need to look to the future to see >that. Look up "gifted children" today: kids who, for >whatever reason, really can absorb the information >years faster. Much of the time, they are given the >info at the same rate, leading to extreme boredom and >resulting problems. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 22:16:58 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:16:58 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110141110.028de298@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Ditto, posting limit: ===================== Re forced Techno-Rapture: Recall the I Ching, which in one of its hexagrams points out that if you "fight evil" there is a terrible tendency to do the same as they do "in the name of good" and are therefore not any different. (I can see it now, Bibles with installed Singualarized AIs, which "rapturize" the reader. Or CDs with the Extropian Principles which "extropize" the viewer. hmmmm. ExtroBaptism, anyone?) >S sez: Keith, > >I am curious. What was your opinion before on such ethics (not to mention >whether it is a worthwhile use of the computational resources) and what is >it now? > >Keith Henson: > >>>>This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well >>>>worth passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us >>>>who are not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... >> >>I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the lot >>of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. ================================= Naah, just your brain pzzzzzzzzzt! >Aargh! > >NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! >DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! > >Damien Broderick ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 10 23:56:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:56:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cusp: Robert A. Metzger Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110175452.01b245b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue403/books.html I haven't read it, but it sounds fun. Damien Broderick From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Jan 11 00:05:46 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:05:46 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning Message-ID: <41E3185A.C39FD058@mindspring.com> Terry W. Colvin Voice: [520]538-5392 U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program FAX: [520]538-5435 Air Tasking Orders [Desert Storm I] DSN: 879-5392 Fort Huachuca (Cochise County), Arizona USA "No editor ever likes the way a story tastes unless he pees in it first." -Mark Twain You wrote: > > Just in the last week, I investigated a report similar to the telephone event. > Near Walka, some 300km from here, a woman reported ball lightning in her house > during a thunder storm. She said it came in through a CLOSED window, bounced > on the carpet and then remained stationary on an extension power point for a > couple of seconds causing it to burst into flames and emit a couple of bangs. > It then rolled up the side of a foam box, melting the surface and burning the > hair on the head of a joey (young kangaroo) that was in the box before rolling > into the kitchen an becoming lost to view. The woman was at this time more > concerned with putting out the electrical fire and with the joey. The ball was > about 15 cm across. There are several inconsistencies in her story (like the > joey having NO burnt hair on its head), but there was certainly a fire within > the electrical extension. As there was undoubtedly a nearby lightning strike > on power lines (witnessed by a neighbour) and damage to telephone lines locally, > (including her own phone line requiring repair) it was perhaps possible that > the ball actually started in the electrical extension, with the initial > flash being seen as a streak through the woman's thick glasses, as it was > initially seen out the corner of her eye. The fire in the extension was > possibly due to the arcing across dust which was certainly present within it. > (During this trip, I broke my cam shaft. Looks like a "new" engine) > > Worldwide, there is a consistency of reports in thunderstorms, although the > Japanese have a surfeit of clear weather sightings. Perhaps this is > investigator bias. I don't understand the theories that attempt to explain > ball lightning, so I won't try to explain them. One Japanese group have > created sustainable plasma balls (not necessarily formed in the same way > as ball lightning). The leading investigator in this group believes they may > be related to "true" crop circles (should there be such) and had a close > association with Terence Meaden (see Schnabel's "Round in Circles"). > > Cheers, Rob Please put me on your email list for any reports of Ball Lightning. I've been studying the phenomenon for 23 years now [as of 1995]. My company is doing R&D in this area. Best Regards, Charles Cagle Chief Technical Officer Singularity Technologies, Inc, 1640 Oak Grove Road, N.W. Salem, OR 97304 Ph/Fx 503/362-7781 -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jan 11 00:26:23 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:26:23 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110215059.15520.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110215059.15520.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E31D2F.70702@mac.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > >Rapture is a mythical state of *some* kind of transcendance that is >described by many more than just Christian theology, nor does it depend >on an Earth created in 4004 BC. Refusing to hijack the rapture meme is >literally refusing to take necessary action in supplanting the >prescientific mythocracy. Just as replacing Christmas with Newtonmas >(as Christmas replaced the Roman Saturnalia), supplanting christian >theological precepts with rational transhumanist ones is necessary to >win the memetic war. > > > An interesting point. However, in this particular case of the Rapture, the subject is so heavily overlaid with fundamentalist Christian memesets that I have difficulty seeing how this can lead to anything but confusion and accepting some pretty horrific package deals. You don't supplant prescientific myths by saying you have a better form of the same thing. This would be equivalent to claiming that chemistry was actually modern alchemy and astronomy nothing but scientific astrology. Redefining the meaning of a holiday is a far simpler task. That we should do the latter does not make the former doable or recommended. - samantha From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 00:29:38 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110140645.028e7308@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111002938.57184.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I know i'm over limit for posting, but this is v. important to me. What would you say to children being allowed to specialize? Now they might end up too narrow-focused yet would you rather have children who are illiterate or children who are somewhat narrow-minded? Specialization might be worthy as a trade-off. If public schools taught each child one subject well, a subject the child had been tested to show he or she had greater proficiency at, and had the parents or tutors teach the child the other subjects, then public education might be effective (since too many families, again, want school to be a baby sitting service). And/or we could have private schools augmented by homeschooling & tutors. Let's not blame teacher's unions excessively, the parents have the ultimate responsibility. >Now shall I rant: Compulsory uplifting for all! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgc at cox.net Tue Jan 11 00:39:46 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:39:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net><20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> Kevin Freels wrote: >So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging >station? > > > OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester carbon as they grow. Harvest the fallen leaves in the fall into big leaf piles. Convert the leaves into methanol and/or methane as needed. Any extra leaves can be sequestered to given to folks who have no trees. Convert the methanol and/or methane into electricity to charge the EV and run the home electrical system Use the process heat to heat/cool the house. The major advantage of this approach is that you can implement it locally, with no infrastructure. The major disadvantages are two-fold: 1) high capital cost. 2) high complexity. OK, how many tons of leaves do we need to do this? Research the following: for each, identify the capital costs and the conversion factor. 1) Leaves-> methanol/methane 2) methane-> electricity 3) methanol->electricity 4) Acres (eastern US) ->leaves. 5) electricity->road miles. Note: those of us with private septic systems can generate additional methane. From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 11 01:43:55 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:43:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > It's not so much a question of school financing to me, > it's treating the children as human. I am curious about what may be your solution - how to treat children *and* adults as human? Olga From dgc at cox.net Tue Jan 11 02:44:32 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:44:32 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <41E33D90.5030007@cox.net> Olga Bourlin wrote: >From: "Ned Late" > > > >>Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap >>it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. >> >> > >Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* The >1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > > Furthermore, even if the educational system were imparting nothing of value directly, the kids still get a great deal of education from each other. Perhaps we should fire all of the administrators and teachers and replace them with proctors. Send the kids to school, and let them interact as they wish, subject only to rules of behavior enforced by the proctors. My kids (a senior at UVA, a sophomore at McGill, and a high school freshman) all seemed to get more out of recess and extracurricular activities than they did from classes. They are all voracious readers, though. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 11 03:36:30 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:36:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com><009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <41E33D90.5030007@cox.net> Message-ID: <001001c4f78e$bdac0300$9ceafb44@kevin> Perhaps we > should fire all > of the administrators and teachers and replace them with proctors. Send > the kids to school, > and let them interact as they wish, subject only to rules of behavior > enforced by the proctors. > This is actually a great idea. Turn them loose with a library and Google. I wonder if there would be a legal and ethical way to test this and see how it works? From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Jan 11 03:32:56 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:32:56 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:12 AM 10/01/05 -0800, you wrote: >Keith, > >I am curious. What was your opinion before on such ethics (not to mention >whether it is a worthwhile use of the computational resources) That uploading people without their consent was unethical. >and what is it now? It is still unethical, but perhaps justified considering what they want to do to the rest of us. >If, on either side of your chance of heart, you would subject them to a >simulated Rapture, would they be on the "losing" or "winning" end of same? :-) Hmm. I thought "god's side" winning was part of the story. >I would be more tempted to run them through a sim where humanity destroys >itself but before they die they understand utterly that their own >erroneous beliefs and those of their siblings in spirit, were responsible >and that their beliefs were in fact totally bogus. Not worth it. Bad enough to give them want they claim to want. I suspect the operators would have to mess with their boredom threshold to keep them from going mad after a simulated thousand years of singing around a simulated thrown of God. >No need for upload though. A vivid set of induced dreams should do the trick. I think having a bunch of them in the throws of induced rapture dreams flailing around in reality isn't a good idea. In fact, that's much the problem we have now. Keith Henson >- s > >Keith Henson wrote: > >>At 11:17 AM 07/01/05 -0600, you wrote: >> >>>>This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well >>>>worth passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us >>>>who are not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... >> >>I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the lot >>of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. >> >>Keith Henson >> >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Jan 11 03:37:19 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:37:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110223528.032f22c0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:39 PM 10/01/05 -0600, you wrote: >At 10:22 AM 1/10/2005 -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > >>Further implication: >>"Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as >>viewed by different people with different takes on it >>("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to >>describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the >>same event). > >Aargh! > >NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! > >It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological singularity is just >what is expected to happen when specific technologies attain a certain >degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is a mythical state of >spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian belief system that >includes a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus to judge the >just and the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist foolishness. >DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! Yeah, but don't forget that the singularity would give the technogeeks the power to grant a simulated rapture to the rapture freaks. Keith Henson From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Jan 11 03:40:01 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:40:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110200629.37849.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110200029.49707.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110223930.032f2050@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:06 PM 10/01/05 -0800, you wrote: >(I forget if this will be my sixth or seventh post >today; either way, I'd better stop here.) > >--- Ned Late wrote: > > Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK > > schools > > better than US counterparts at that time? > >Nope. Palo Alto, California. Silicon Valley, USA. What year? (My daughter graduated there in 2000) Keith Henson From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jan 11 03:59:37 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:59:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cusp: Robert A. Metzger In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110175452.01b245b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110175452.01b245b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41E34F29.2020402@mac.com> Ah, the hard stuff. My one-click finger twitches and the dose is on its way. This one really does look good. Thanks. -s Damien Broderick wrote: > Singularity comprehensible and utilize it as a trope without rendering > narrative coherence null and void.> > > http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue403/books.html > > I haven't read it, but it sounds fun. > > Damien Broderick > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jan 11 04:01:45 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:01:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050110215509.36372.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01c4f792$47ae7d00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are > the parents themselves... ...Which isn't hard to achieve, considering that teachers have the lowest average SAT scores of any profession requiring a 4 year degree.... ===== Mike Lorrey Consider a transition that has been taking place over the past 20 years or so. Children are being transformed from little people into little liability bombs, armed with delicate impact fuses. One little mistake in their handling and they explode violently, sending litigious shrapnel in all directions, with deadly accurate aim at whoever has the most money. These legal explosions can only be survived by those who are the most judgement-proof: the liability heavy armor, the lawsuit tanks, the very poor, those not worth the effort for the pants that could be sued off of them. Anyone who owns much of anything becomes a lawsuit pinata, inviting all (especially children) to take a legal whack. Anyone who owns much of anything is strongly advised to flee in terror from anyone under 18. Is it any wonder that society is selecting the SAT low- scorers to be the elementary school teachers? We choose teachers from those who have few professional options, the utterly destitute, then keep them that way, so that they remain judgement-proof thruoghout their entire careers. Is this any way to run a world? spike From megao at sasktel.net Tue Jan 11 05:03:18 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:03:18 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> Message-ID: <41E35E16.70104@sasktel.net> Urilizing a robotic tree pruning system that runs on a combination of electric/methanol fuel cells and extracting valuable bioactives from the tree biomass would make even an energy in = energy out marginal biomass productivity system economically viable. Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Kevin Freels wrote: > >> So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo >> re-charging >> station? >> >> >> > OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester > carbon as they grow. > > Harvest the fallen leaves in the fall into big leaf piles. Convert the > leaves into methanol and/or methane > as needed. Any extra leaves can be sequestered to given to folks who > have no trees. > > Convert the methanol and/or methane into electricity to charge the EV > and run the home electrical system > > Use the process heat to heat/cool the house. > > The major advantage of this approach is that you can implement it > locally, with no > infrastructure. > > The major disadvantages are two-fold: > 1) high capital cost. > 2) high complexity. > > OK, how many tons of leaves do we need to do this? Research the > following: for each, identify > the capital costs and the conversion factor. > > 1) Leaves-> methanol/methane > 2) methane-> electricity > 3) methanol->electricity > 4) Acres (eastern US) ->leaves. > 5) electricity->road miles. > > Note: those of us with private septic systems can generate additional > methane. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 11 05:44:19 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:44:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] They Were ... Cheerleading? Message-ID: <000d01c4f7a0$98f13870$6600a8c0@brainiac> Yes, and here's even more evidence we are living in a Jerry Springer universe: http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050110/2005-01-10T194744Z_01_N10209253_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-ABUSE-DC.html Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 06:36:00 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:36:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] CSO Online: Securing the Post-Human Future Message-ID: <470a3c520501102236690b7bfb@mail.gmail.com> In the last few months the CIO Magazine published a good review of James Hughes' Citizen Cyborg and a good article on transhumanism. A few days ago the CSO Online ("The Resource for Security Executives", voted 2004 ASBPE Magazine of the Year and Winner - Best New Web Publication) published another good article on "Securing the Post-Human Future", beginning with "CSOs will very likely live to see the day when human brains are easily augmentable through an array of knowledge implants, apps and Wi-Fi capabilities". Both CIO Magazine and CSO Online are examples of mainstream business journals for IT professionals open to current ideas on human enhancement. The article quotes, of course, Fukuyama's recent Foreign Policy statement on transhumanism as the single idea currently posing the greatest threat to humanity, and continues with a good summary of some transhumanist ideas: "Transhumanism might be described as the technology of advanced individual enhancement. While it includes physical modifications (diamondoid teeth, self-styling hair, autocleaning ears, nanotube bones, lipid metabolizers, polymer muscles), most of the interest in the technology focuses on the integration of brains and computers - especially brains and networks. Sample transhumanist apps could include cell phone implants (which would allow virtual telepathy), memory backups and augmenters, thought recorders, reflex accelerators, collaborative consciousness (whiteboarding in the brain), and a very long list of thought-controlled actuators. Ultimately, the technology could extend to the uploading and downloading of entire minds in and out of host bodies, providing a self-consciousness that, theoretically, would have no definitive nor necessary end. That is, immortality, of a sort. While some of these abilities are clearly quite far off, others are already attracting researchers (see "Making the Head Case," Page 52), and none are known (at the moment at least) to be impossible. Fukuyama obviously felt the technology is close enough at hand to write a book on it". In the rest of the article the author avoids value judgements and adopts a matter-of-fact approach: these things will come, and perhaps sooner than we think despite Fukuyama's objections. He focuses mainly on neurotechnology and the future enterprise secutity problems associated with brains running on a network: "In other words, it looks as though the transhumanist era is going to present a host of problems for which there are no immediate solutions. Consider, for example, the extremely vexing problem of neurosecurity". All links are in the online version of this post at: http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/inthenews/cso-online-securing-the-post-human-future/ I also posted it to Always On: http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=7879_0_5_0_C to stimulate sone interest in a mainstream community. From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jan 11 09:27:05 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:27:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> References: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:39:46PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Kevin Freels wrote: > > >So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging > >station? > > OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester > carbon as they grow. Better: insulate your house. Put good passive absorbers on the roof for heating your water. Build a winter garden, and other means for passive solar heating. Use efficient burners. Use hydrogen-rich fossil fuels (methane), or renewables (there are now new clean wood powder burners, etc). Use energy-efficient household machines. This gives the best ROI. Everything beyond that is going to cost you more, and give you increasingly diminishing returns (some local variations like geothermia and microhydro or subsidized PV ignored on purpose). Planting trees is a good idea on its own, though. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 10:02:36 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:02:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wikipedia Faces Growing Pains Message-ID: <470a3c5205011102025fb1e7e0@mail.gmail.com> This interesting Wired article raises difficult questions ("lack of official vetting is central to many of the questions facing Wikipedia today"). I am sure there can be good answers but they should be elaborated and written. "Since its birth in 2001, Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia from the Wikimedia Foundation, has grown to include more than 1.1 million entries. The English-language version alone has nearly 444,000 entries, all written for no compensation by members of the Wikipedia community. The project has grown to such an extent that it is sometimes mentioned as an alternative to other resources like the Encyclopaedia Britannica. But with that growth, questions about how credible Wikipedia is, whether it can be respected by the academic community and how it might change are more important than ever. And as Wikipedia continues to expand, at about 7 percent per month, many wonder if the project can stay true to its core principles of openness and co-creation. " http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66210,00.html From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jan 11 11:27:33 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:27:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 09:27:25PM -0800, spike wrote: > Hemp? Yes. The major source of plant fiber, before the wood cellulose industry (and fledgling plastics; DuPont) started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign (in early 1930s). You haven't heard? > Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? Hemp crop for fiber/seed/oil use has very low THC content. Very different animal from those high-maintenance crops (Alaskan Thunderfuck et al.). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 11 12:33:56 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:33:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 09:27:25PM -0800, spike wrote: > > > Hemp? > > Yes. The major source of plant fiber, before the wood cellulose industry (and > fledgling plastics; DuPont) started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign > (in early 1930s). You haven't heard? > > > Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? > > Hemp crop for fiber/seed/oil use has very low THC content. Very different > animal from those high-maintenance crops (Alaskan Thunderfuck et al.). > > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 16:06:27 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Ned Late" > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, with the remainder of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't have to work so hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. They'd have a lot more time to spend home schooling their kids. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From megao at sasktel.net Tue Jan 11 14:12:33 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:12:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E3DED1.6020100@sasktel.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 09:27:25PM -0800, spike wrote: > > > >>Hemp? >> >> > >Yes. The major source of plant fiber, before the wood cellulose industry (and >fledgling plastics; DuPont) started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign >(in early 1930s). You haven't heard? > > > >>Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? >> >> > >Hemp crop for fiber/seed/oil use has very low THC content. Very different >animal from those high-maintenance crops (Alaskan Thunderfuck et al.). > > > The nature of cannabis phytochemistry makes it high on the list for designer chemistry. The same biochemistry that produces cannabinoids is a candidate for synthesis of other valuable bioactives. The waste biomass is fibre or fuel, the meal/oil is food, the phytochemicals are the profit potential. In the early days of america there were laws that families had to grow hemp as a way to self sustain the household. However, it will take a major change in mindset before the suburban household starts growing and eating marigolds, hawthorn tree parts,....... as these are usually expected as pre-packaged finished products. You are talking to someone who designs ways to modify ordinary foods into being bioactive delivery devices, so I have a distinct bias based on my knowledge of the field. Morris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From megao at sasktel.net Tue Jan 11 14:29:17 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:29:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees/urban agriculture In-Reply-To: References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E3E2BD.6000704@sasktel.net> MB wrote: >It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash >crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, >but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but >it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. > >Regards, >MB > > > > From what I have seen of the marijuana growers business, there are very sophisticated bio-product possibilities which can be operated as mom-pop franchises and for personal use. The key ingredient is money in for work expended. At 100 CAD/ ounce the market for growers is teeming. So , why not grow this bioactives industry with a variety of alternative bio-products. Urban , high value agriculture is possible. And this does remove CO2 and clean air from the enviro- perspective. The houses are heated already, the lawns are high input ag areas. Many homes already have more space than they know what to do with. Automated herbal production systems are readily available. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 16:16:03 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:16:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050111161603.52559.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Better: insulate your house. Put good passive absorbers on the roof > for heating your water. Build a winter garden, and other means for > passive solar heating. > > Use efficient burners. Use hydrogen-rich fossil fuels (methane), or > renewables (there are now new clean wood powder burners, etc). > > Use energy-efficient household machines. > > This gives the best ROI. Everything beyond that is going to cost you > more, and give you increasingly diminishing returns (some local > variations like geothermia and microhydro or subsidized PV ignored > on purpose). > > Planting trees is a good idea on its own, though. Planting stands of trees to the north of your home reduces winter termal losses by creating natural windbreaks (particularly coniferous growth). Planting around the south (eventually) results in summer shading of the home, reducing A/C load. Make the south planting maple and you have a food source.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jan 11 16:33:39 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:33:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <004c01c4f7fb$4efb98e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Eugen Leitl: ... started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign (in early 1930s). You haven't heard?... Ja I saw the film recently. Brilliant satire! The gullible will fall for the joke and the hep cats will fall off their chairs laughing. (Thats me, Im a real hipster daddio.) They must have had a riot making that film. Who knew marijuana could make one such a great jazz pianist? {8^D spike From alexboko at umich.edu Tue Jan 11 16:31:56 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:31:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? Message-ID: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> The luddites have disgusted me since I was a child. Their idea of utopia would be hell for me. What worries me is that at least they have a contingency plan, should civilization collapse-- live close to the land, farm for a living, cleave tight to your community, and do not rely on any tool or institution that you cannot recreate yourself should the need arise. A low-tech agrarian society will not be maintaining (let alone reviving) any cryonicists, curing aging, creating AI, inventing nanotech, or performing uploads. So, we need to have a better contingency plan in place than the rather depressing one the opposition has. A contingency plan that will safeguard not only our immediate survival but also the technologies needed for the long-term survival of humanity. We're smarter than them, and I'm confident that we will come up with one. Best think tank in the world (and the couple of people who choose to remain outside it but whose opinion I value and am therefore bcc-ing), I ask you this: *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along should the world collapse into another dark age? *** Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're dead. Let's be pragmatic. --Happy New Year, Alex From max at maxmore.com Tue Jan 11 16:39:36 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:39:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Exciting Opportunities from the Institute for Humane Studies Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050111103747.028a12c8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae77c1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4819 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae785e.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5609 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae789c.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6125 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae790a.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5237 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae7958.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 899 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae7987.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 16:51:13 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:51:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110223930.032f2050@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20050111165113.52975.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Keith Henson wrote: > At 12:06 PM 10/01/05 -0800, you wrote: > >--- Ned Late wrote: > > > Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK > > > schools > > > better than US counterparts at that time? > > > >Nope. Palo Alto, California. Silicon Valley, USA. > > What year? (My daughter graduated there in 2000) I graduated from Henry M. Gunn High School in 1992. >From what I hear, the character of the school was in transition while I was there; it was a bit different than what my brother experienced a few years prior, and definitiely different than what was in place in time for your daughter. I haven't set foot on the campus since, so I wouldn't know for sure, although I have driven by it a few times and it definitely looks a bit different. Multiple new buildings, for one. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 16:54:11 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:54:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <001001c4f78e$bdac0300$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050111165411.54922.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Perhaps we > > should fire all > > of the administrators and teachers and replace > them with proctors. Send > > the kids to school, > > and let them interact as they wish, subject only > to rules of behavior > > enforced by the proctors. > > > This is actually a great idea. Turn them loose with > a library and Google. I > wonder if there would be a legal and ethical way to > test this and see how it > works? Do it some place that doesn't normally have schools, for instance rural India. If it's a choice between this experiment and nothing, then since it seems likely this experiment will at least not produce negative learning, that takes care of the ethical side ("do no harm"). Legal is up to negotiation with the local administrators, but if you really are doing it someplace that doesn't have schools but wants them someday, approval should not be too hard to obtain. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 17:00:36 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:00:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050111170036.11872.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- MB wrote: > > It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash > crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, > but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but > it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. Commonly refered to as 'ditch weed', natural hemp typically has low THC levels. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:01:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:01:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <41E31D2F.70702@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050111170159.56957.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > You don't > supplant prescientific myths by saying you have a > better form of the > same thing. You'd be surprised how often it works. > This would be equivalent to claiming > that chemistry was > actually modern alchemy It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: there is no question among serious historians that modern chemistry had its origins in alchemy. Granted, there have been many many refinements and upgrades to the process over the centuries, such that we now refer to them by two different names, but it is technically correct to say that chemistry is modern alchemy. > and astronomy nothing but > scientific > astrology. True again - if by "scientific astrology" you include "attempting to find a scientific explanation for the patterns of the stars that were observed in astrology". One could arguably fit all of astronomy's discoveries - including redshifts, black holes, dark matter theories, and so forth - under that defintion, for are they not all aspects of the fundamentals that our night sky revealed to ancient humans (even if many of the aspects themselves were undreamt of until recently)? From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:06:48 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:06:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050110214354.35559.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111170648.58994.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I > don't > > fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only > for > > the past few years. And if there are any special > > procedures required for a certain item, that's > another > > inconvenience. > > That is what you get for tolerating an > unconstitutional FAA. Actually, this is what we get for tolerating airlines that are routinely sloppy with handling checked baggage, such that some of us grow concerned that our bags will in fact reach the same destination we are headed for, at least without a delay of several days (and major inconvenience in the mean time as we had planned to rely on things in that checked baggage, such as the next day's clothes). Some of the blame might go to the FAA, but the airlines themselves bear prime responsibility here. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 11 17:30:53 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:30:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009d01c4f803$4d743bf0$9ceafb44@kevin> That may be true, but It's not like you can give a kid 2 hours of instruction and then leave for work for 6 hours. Instead, wouldn;t that 2 hours of instruction time be spread out over a period of 4-6 hours? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > From: "Ned Late" > > > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > > > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. > > > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* > > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > > > > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, with the remainder > of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't have to work so > hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. They'd have a lot > more time to spend home schooling their kids. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:27:02 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:27:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > From: "Ned Late" > > > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then > scrap > > > it and let the parents do the babysitting > themselves. > > > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most > parents are *at work.* > > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back > (thank goodness). > > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, > with the remainder > of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't > have to work so > hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. > They'd have a lot > more time to spend home schooling their kids. While there are exceptions, most jobs are officially 40 hours a week, plus commute time both ways, regardless of how much you "need" to work. On top of that, many bosses now expect good workers to bring work home with them or to work unpaid overtime; to remain competitive in the labor force, 50 or even 60 hours a week of actual work (again, plus commute both ways) is not uncommon. As a result of doing what they need to do to avoid unemployment, many parents find themselves without time or energy to interact with their children during the week beyond maybe dinner together - and sometimes not even that. I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate to more hours in the day to do other things. Even home schooling. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:44:51 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wikipedia Faces Growing Pains In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205011102025fb1e7e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050111174451.5861.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66210,00.html I particularly note that they claim Wikipedia lacks the standards necessary to be a sole source reference, unlike for example the Encyclopedia Brittanica. These days, I don't think there is such a thing as a viable sole source reference in many cases. Even sources that used to be treated as viable. Between new/emerging technologies, different spins on historical events which should be documented beyond ability to forge (like the Armenian Holocaust: were or were not several million people deliberately "cleansed" in a certain region of Eastern Europe during WWI?), and the occasional typo even in the most thoroughly edited documents, on any matter of major importance I always try to get at least two credible references (usually a minimum of one source that I read for details, and another source that I skim for confirmation). Personally, I would give Wikipedia and the E.B. equal credibility on most important matters more than a few years old, and not expect the E.B. to have much information on more recent events. From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 18:03:27 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111180328.15734.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If parents don't have time to monitor their childrens' education then perhaps they should think twice or thrice about having children in the first place. (BTW let's not call children 'kids', we don't need to call women 'broads' or 'chicks', do we?). Actually, the '50s weren't all that bad, but it couldn't last, external pressures dislocate all familial utopias. When utopian conservatives pine for the '50s they are nostalgic for nuclear family monopoly. Olga Bourlin wrote:> Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jan 11 18:09:01 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:09:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050111180901.GJ9221@leitl.org> On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 10:31:56AM -0600, Alex F. Bokov wrote: > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** Bury many copies of the modern equivalent of the Library of Alexandria. (I know of a guy in Oz who's been burying stacks of microfiches in steel baloons in the desert). Something directly human-readable (with some magnification, batteries included), and long-lasting (several kiloyears at least). I hope the Long Now people are into this; they'd better. > Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" > suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but > here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't > bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're > dead. Let's be pragmatic. I assume I have to die even if things pan out far better than expected. Possibly for good, if cryonics isn't there in some four to five decades. If you've got reasons for more optimism, let us hear it. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jan 11 18:34:02 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:34:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Trim 5 alpha gene [might] lead to Aids cure" Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111123302.01a00ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/1183.html etc From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 11 19:33:11 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:11 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111170036.11872.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050111170036.11872.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It has been said that migrant laborers have found this stuff and will try smoking it - all to no avail. Locals know it's a bummer, a sham, a false advertisement. My question is, "Will the feds jump all over you if this stuff is found on your property?" That would hardly be fair, if it grows wild... but who ever said the black helicopters would be "fair"? I've never seen it growing, so perhaps it's mostly extirpated here. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- MB wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash > > crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, > > but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but > > it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. > > Commonly refered to as 'ditch weed', natural hemp typically has low THC levels. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 19:50:29 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:50:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <009d01c4f803$4d743bf0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050111195029.56905.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Why would you say that? David Lubkin has commented on his experience homeschooling his daughter on this list in the past. From all of my friends who homeschool their kids, it doesn't seem that hard. Nor do you have to be educated yourself. Many folks recruit friends with expertise to help out, particularly if they have their own business. The kids intern with the business, and the business owner gets free or low cost labor. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > That may be true, but It's not like you can give a kid 2 hours of > instruction and then leave for work for 6 hours. Instead, wouldn;t > that 2 > hours of instruction time be spread out over a period of 4-6 hours? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Lorrey" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic > > > > > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > > > From: "Ned Late" > > > > > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > > > > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. > > > > > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at > work.* > > > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank > goodness). > > > > > > > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, with the > remainder > > of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't have to work so > > hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. They'd have a > lot > > more time to spend home schooling their kids. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:00:06 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:00:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111200006.57867.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate > to more hours in the day to do other things. Even > home schooling. On the contrary. It is the modern tax structure that forces families to have two earners. With a 46% tax burden between local, state, and federal taxes, plus indirect taxation such as corporate taxation, VAT, excises, duties, taxes added to rent, etc 60% of the average person's income is taxation. If total taxes were reduced to just 10%, this means that families could afford to have just one wage earner for the same standard of living, as was done back when taxation WAS that low. Eliminate the welfare state, the warfare state, and the police state, and all the 'problems' those tyrannies are supposed to address will go away and society will be much happier. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:04:24 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:04:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <41E35E16.70104@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050111200424.7161.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > Urilizing a robotic tree pruning system that runs on a combination of > electric/methanol fuel cells and extracting valuable bioactives from > the tree biomass would make even an energy in = energy out marginal > biomass productivity system economically viable. It is a myth that biomass energy will in any way impact CO2 levels. By definition, when you put carbon into plant matter that you turn around and burn, there is no net change in atmospheric CO2 levels. If you put any energy into growing that plant matter other than solar, such as into fertilizers, machinery, etc, you increase CO2 levels. Operating on organic biomass alone is not efficient enough, at 2-3% efficiency, to effectively exploit land put to biomass production. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:04:45 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:04:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111200445.53606.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Precisely. Not having children in the first place is the way to reduce couples' tax burdens. And if couples do become families then they must monitor the quality of the schools themselves and not say "it's the government's and teachers' unions responsibilty to keep education from declining too much in quality"-- because government & unions wont do so. Also long as we have mass education school-prison/babysitting institutions we will have declines in individual school quality, with inner cities having the worst schools. My hunch is that parents do want their 'kids' educated yet not particularly more educated than themselves. >I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate >to more hours in the day to do other things. Even >home schooling. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:14:06 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:14:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111165411.54922.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111201407.94272.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> These are first-rate suggestions. And perhaps let certain children 'merely' obtain decent employment and not be comprehensively educated until they are in their late teens & twenties? >Turn them loose with > a library and Google. I > wonder if there would be a legal and ethical way to > test this and see how it > works? Do it some place that doesn't normally have schools, for instance rural India. If it's a choice between this experiment and nothing, then since it seems likely this experiment will at least not produce negative learning, that takes care of the ethical side ("do no harm"). Legal is up to negotiation with the local administrators, but if you really are doing it someplace that doesn't have schools but wants them someday, approval should not be too hard to obtain. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 11 20:32:59 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:32:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111180328.15734.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c4f81c$be3c1d80$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Ned Late Actually, the '50s weren't all that bad, but it couldn't last, external pressures dislocate all familial utopias. When utopian conservatives pine for the '50s they are nostalgic for nuclear family monopoly. Riiiiiiiiiight, ahhh those happy days when you could still get good help and discrimination ruled and segregation was in flower ... Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Tue Jan 11 20:42:16 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:42:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nearby quasar, quantized redshift Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B110@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Astronomers at UCSD have observed a highly redshifted quasar in nearby galaxy NCG 7319. http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcquasar.asp Any inexplicable cosmological phenomenon picques my interest, and in the course of my research I came across the idea that redshift is quantized. This is apparently a controversial issue in the astronomical community. On the web, most pages seems to be by "creation scientists". This immediately raises my suspicions but one ignores the truth at one's own peril. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_shift (I know, unreviewed, blah blah) http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/QuantizedRedshift.html Much more detailed papers are available at http://sastpc.org/publications.php for those interested. Primary proponents seem to be William Tifft, with additional support from William Napier and Bruce Guthrie. Another supporter is Halton Arp. If anyone is familiar with this effect could you please post a summary understandable to the layman of the current state of research? I am particularly interested in how this effects the standard cosmology and alternative cosmologies which do explain it. Bonus points for citations from refereed, reputable journals :) I'd love to continue digging myself, but I have work to do :( Acy From alexboko at umich.edu Tue Jan 11 20:55:23 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:55:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF99.5010308@uthscsa.edu> References: <41E3FF99.5010308@uthscsa.edu> Message-ID: <41E43D3B.6020400@umich.edu> Eugen Leitl wrote: > I assume I have to die even if things pan out far better than > expected. Possibly for good, if cryonics isn't there in some four to > five decades. If you've got reasons for more optimism, let us hear it. No, I share your assumption, Eugen. That's my whole point-- we need to take all the steps we can to insure cryonics will be there in four to five decades, even if most of civilization no longer is. Of course infinite life is thermodynamically impossible, but not indefinite life. I was just being sloppy with language, sorry. From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 11 22:13:10 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:13:10 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning In-Reply-To: <41E3185A.C39FD058@mindspring.com> References: <41E3185A.C39FD058@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <41E44F76.80908@neopax.com> Terry W. Colvin wrote: >Please put me on your email list for any reports of Ball Lightning. I've been >studying the phenomenon for 23 years now [as of 1995]. My company is doing R&D >in this area. > > > A report from a (now dead) father of a friend who saw some form once. He said it was created where two parts of the lightning discharge crossed. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 11 22:16:02 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:16:02 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <41E45022.2030404@neopax.com> alexboko wrote: > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** > > Well, a relatively small cache of textbooks should be able to reboot the world to around circa 1900AD with no problem. Beyond that I imagine detailed plans would expand exponentially, and only summaries and guidelines would be practical. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 11 22:39:46 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> As a result of doing what they > need to do to avoid unemployment, many parents find > themselves without time or energy to interact with > their children during the week beyond maybe dinner > together - and sometimes not even that. I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less expensive "paid for" cars. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 22:48:50 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <01ab01c4f82e$e694ec00$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050111224850.8586.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I remember that conversation. I didn;t say it was difficult. I was > commenting on your calculations of time vs tax burden. It would be > great if > you could spend 2 hours per day instructing and work 6 and get rid of > public > schools, but it just doesn;t work like that. On the contrary, it does. The Dept of Ed's own study of homeschooling made it pretty clear that homeschooling requires, on average, 2 hours per day and an annual average cost of $95.00. Not only that, but the goverment admitted that homeschooled kids are far less likely to commit crime, are on average far better educated than public school kids, and achieve more in post-secondary education as well as future earnings. The anti-home-schooling propaganda put ot by teachers unions and atheist statists that home schoolers are a bunch of ignorant hick bible thumpers who turn out illiterate 'cestnoids couldn't be further from the truth, and the government itself admits as much. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 22:51:35 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:51:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050111225135.89204.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- MB wrote: > > It has been said that migrant laborers have found this stuff and will > try smoking it - all to no avail. Locals know it's a bummer, a sham, > a false advertisement. > > My question is, "Will the feds jump all over you if this stuff is > found on your property?" That would hardly be fair, if it grows > wild... but who ever said the black helicopters would be "fair"? No, however if a cop catches you picking it, watch out. They have in many cases successfully prosecuted the pickers. (we can't have people going around making rope for free, can we?) ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 11 22:57:44 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:57:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Homeschooling - change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111195029.56905.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050111195029.56905.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just because you homeschool doesn't mean you must *always* homeschool. My brother and his wife homeschooled for a couple of years when schools were bad, but when they moved to a new place the kids went to school again. The homeschool years avoided some *serious* behavior/discipline problems at the first school. Didn't hurt the kids one bit, far as I can tell. One is an attorney, one has a Masters in math, the third is currently sysadmin for the engineering dept at his university... Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Why would you say that? > > David Lubkin has commented on his experience homeschooling his daughter > on this list in the past. From all of my friends who homeschool their > kids, it doesn't seem that hard. Nor do you have to be educated > yourself. Many folks recruit friends with expertise to help out, > particularly if they have their own business. The kids intern with the > business, and the business owner gets free or low cost labor. > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > > That may be true, but It's not like you can give a kid 2 hours of > > instruction and then leave for work for 6 hours. Instead, wouldn;t > > that 2 > > hours of instruction time be spread out over a period of 4-6 hours? > From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Wed Jan 12 00:24:12 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:24:12 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B138@amazemail2.amazeent.com> According to my information, the government spends more than twice as much per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing that tax burden would foster a flourishing private school industry. Acy -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Ned Late Sent: Tuesday, 11 January, 2005 14:05 To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic Precisely. Not having children in the first place is the way to reduce couples' tax burdens. And if couples do become families then they must monitor the quality of the schools themselves and not say "it's the government's and teachers' unions responsibilty to keep education from declining too much in quality"-- because government & unions wont do so. Also long as we have mass education school-prison/babysitting institutions we will have declines in individual school quality, with inner cities having the worst schools. My hunch is that parents do want their 'kids' educated yet not particularly more educated than themselves. >I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate >to more hours in the day to do other things. Even >home schooling. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgc at cox.net Wed Jan 12 01:30:09 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:30:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> References: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E47DA1.9080900@cox.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:39:46PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>Kevin Freels wrote: >> >> >> >>>So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging >>>station? >>> >>> >>OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester >>carbon as they grow. >> >> > >Better: insulate your house. Put good passive absorbers on the roof for >heating your water. Build a winter garden, and other means for passive solar >heating. > >Use efficient burners. Use hydrogen-rich fossil fuels (methane), or renewables (there >are now new clean wood powder burners, etc). > >Use energy-efficient household machines. > >This gives the best ROI. Everything beyond that is going to cost you more, >and give you increasingly diminishing returns (some local variations like >geothermia and microhydro or subsidized PV ignored on purpose). > > > Absolutely. However, this does not provide energy for transportation. For that we need to generate either electricity or hydrocarbon fuel, I speculated that the incremental cost to generate power for the house, given the capital investment needed to generate energy for the EV, would be acceptably small. Of course, when you notice that your leaf pile from last year is running out before the next fall, you will probably decide to insulate, etc. in order to conserve energy. I focused on electricity rather than hydrocarbon fuel because one of the two parent threads was all about zero-emission vehicles. With respect to heating, the use of any fuel means that you are not being clever enough in managing your heat budget. Insulation, solar thermal, and heat storage and transfer should keep you snug. However, if you are converting biomass to electricity, or even to methanol and/or methane, you also have a fair amount of cogenerated process heat to work with, and it may be cheaper to use it than it is to mess with solar thermal. From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 12 02:26:36 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:26:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Kevin Freels" > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > expensive "paid for" cars. Begging your pardon (again), but ... second job? *Second* job? Whose second job? 1) Adult people work for many reasons - even independently rich people have been known to work (not because they have to - but for various good reasons). While not a norm in every culture, we (supposedly) value gender equality (and are finally able to achieve some semblance of this, thanks to near-perfect birth control and other reproductive options). That's what equality is all about - not just equal freedom, but equal responsibility, as in being financially responsible = i.e., being a $elf-$ufficient grown up person. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... and 2) Not all families have two incomes because not all families (by choice of chance) have two adult heads-of-household. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... and 3) It may have been necessary at one time in human history (when there was no choice, especially in matters of birth control), but for an adult to somehow feel obligated to support another *adult* is a very bad idea, indeed. We no longer need to do this. (There are exceptions, of course - some people are not able to work, are sick, mentally unbalanced, what have you...). Children are financially supported - and as a result children, being children - have a diminution of their "rights." (Children, in effect, trade in some of their "rights" for this financial support - the way women in the past traded in their "rights" by being financially supported.) But - yippee, and what a relief it is to live in 2005 ... when women no longer need to be play the part of "children." and, I think ... 4) One can't comfortably and justifiably say "fuck you" to anything or anyone unless one is financially self-sufficient. As a financially self-sufficient grown up woman, I wouldn't give up this privilege for a million bucks (i.e., I wouldn't give up my self-sufficiency for anything or anyone - why would *any* adult want to give their independence up?). And because it's 2005 - I don't have to. "Second job" my arse. Get serious, Kevin. Arrrrrrrrrrrrr, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...., Olga From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 03:11:06 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:11:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B138@amazemail2.amazee nt.com> References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B138@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111210122.01aeae60@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: >According to my information, the government spends more than twice as much >per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing that tax burden >would foster a flourishing private school industry. Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per resident - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil So the *best* private schools manage to charge less than half that? Wow. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 03:42:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:42:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] real expensive education Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111213838.01a1b718@pop-server.satx.rr.com> But I left out the real knee-slapper: At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: >According to my information, the government spends more than twice as much >per student annually as the best private schools. EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil The annual high school tuition charged today by St. John's in Houston, the school once attended by my nearest and dearest, is $13,000. Acy, were you using some esoteric sense of the word `best' (one that doesn't have `cheapest' built-in as part of the definition)? Damien Broderick From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 12 04:16:40 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:16:40 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: IMHO having children is a full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a combination of the two. Yes, it is lovely that women have freedom to work now outside the home, it is a fine and good thing. It is an excellent thing that fathers can take time to be home with children - that they do not have to work all the time. However, this is a consumer society, Olga - you've complained about it before, as have I. IMHO if one has a child one has taken on a commitment that lasts for at least 18 years, and there may need to be sacrifices made to honor that commitment. Financial sacrifices, even. If one is not willing to make the sacrifices then perhaps one shouldn't be having kids. Single parents are in a particularly difficult place in this regard. If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have made some different choices. Children do benefit from two parents. Hell, *parents* benefit from two parents. That's because parenting is a full time job. For somebody. Been there, done that. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Kevin Freels" > > > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that > > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to > > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > > expensive "paid for" cars. > > Begging your pardon (again), but ... second job? *Second* job? Whose > second job? > > 1) Adult people work for many reasons - even independently rich people have > been known to work (not because they have to - but for various good > reasons). While not a norm in every culture, we (supposedly) value gender > equality (and are finally able to achieve some semblance of this, thanks to > near-perfect birth control and other reproductive options). That's what > equality is all about - not just equal freedom, but equal responsibility, as > in being financially responsible = i.e., being a $elf-$ufficient grown up > person. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... > > and > > 2) Not all families have two incomes because not all families (by choice of > chance) have two adult heads-of-household. Yippee, it is 2005, after all > ... > > and > > 3) It may have been necessary at one time in human history (when there was > no choice, especially in matters of birth control), but for an adult to > somehow feel obligated to support another *adult* is a very bad idea, > indeed. We no longer need to do this. (There are exceptions, of course - > some people are not able to work, are sick, mentally unbalanced, what have > you...). Children are financially supported - and as a result children, > being children - have a diminution of their "rights." (Children, in effect, > trade in some of their "rights" for this financial support - the way women > in the past traded in their "rights" by being financially supported.) But - > yippee, and what a relief it is to live in 2005 ... when women no longer > need to be play the part of "children." > > and, I think ... > > 4) One can't comfortably and justifiably say "fuck you" to anything or > anyone unless one is financially self-sufficient. As a financially > self-sufficient grown up woman, I wouldn't give up this privilege for a > million bucks (i.e., I wouldn't give up my self-sufficiency for anything or > anyone - why would *any* adult want to give their independence up?). And > because it's 2005 - I don't have to. > > "Second job" my arse. Get serious, Kevin. > > Arrrrrrrrrrrrr, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...., > Olga From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Wed Jan 12 04:34:21 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:34:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B141@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: > >> According to my information, the government spends more than twice >> as much per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing >> that tax burden would foster a flourishing private school industry. > > > Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm > > EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA > > - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per resident > > - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil > > > So the *best* private schools manage to charge less than half that? > Wow. > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat How's this sound, from the National Center for Education Statistics: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/2004319.pdf "In the 2000-2001 school year, the median school district received $8,236 per student in revenues from state, local, and federal sources... Total expenditures per student ranged between $6,158 and $12,621 for 80 percent of the school districts in the country." For 12 years of education this gives a total cost of ~$100K - Unfortunately I am unable to find data to support the cost of private schools. However, based upon a reported ~$13K/year for secondary school (from another message) and ~$5K per year for primary school here in Austin, and assuming six years @ $5k, three years @ $9K, and three years at $13K, a total cost of $96K is arrived at. This compares less favorably costwise than I imagined; however the environment and education is likely far superior in private schools. If someone could find statistics on the cost of public schooling divided according to primary and secondary education I would be quite appreciative. Acy From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Jan 12 04:43:10 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:43:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111210122.01aeae60@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050112044310.17519.qmail@web81205.mail.yahoo.com> Careful where you get your statistics. The Statistical Abstract of the United States lists in 2000 47.2 million public K-12 students, and 402 billion dollars in total expenditures (State and Federal) for roughly $8500 per student. To cross check this, I looked at the budget for my local Milwaukee Public Schools, widely acknowledged as one of the worst in the country. With roughly 100,000 enrollment, total expenditures are roughly 900 million total, or $9000 per student. Pretty average, then. University School, the priciest if not best private school in Milwaukee area, charges 10,000 to 15,000 dollars per year. They have a significant endowment and contributions (looks like 1 million per year), and about 1.7 million in tuition assistance, so call it a wash. Still significantly more than MPS, but I think it is fair to say that you get far more than twice your value. Milwaukee area Catholic schools seem to range between $1600 and $6700 per year tuition, significantly less than MPS spends. I don't know to what extent the Archdiocese subsidizes this, but I doubt it is much and you can't nuns like you used too. I think it is fair to say that you get more for your money with private schools, but public schools do not cost "twice" as much as the "best" private schools. It *might* be "twice" as much for comparable schools (in facilities and staff), as evidenced by the Catholic school rates. On the third hand, looking through, I noticed that Whitefish Bay, a suburban village right next to Milwaukee and part of Milwaukee County, spends ~$10,000 per student per year, and it has beautiful facilities and staff (for instance, the high school has an olympic size indoor swimming pool). What it boils down to is that there is a strong selection effect with American schools. Parents who care work their butts off and either move to the 'burbs or find some way to go to a private school. In general, parents who don't care dump their kids in whatever is available. An interesting example is the apartment complex I live in in Whitefish Bay. It is jam full of immigrant families and refugees from the city who take advantage of the relatively low rent and location to send the kids to good schools. Since there is such a selection effect, I think it is difficult to generalize from the current situation to one where there are no public schools at all. --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: > > >According to my information, the government spends > more than twice as much > >per student annually as the best private schools. > Reducing that tax burden > >would foster a flourishing private school industry. > > > Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm > > EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA > > - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per > resident > > - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil > > > So the *best* private schools manage to charge less > than half that? Wow. > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Jan 12 04:54:14 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:54:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B141@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <20050112045414.9990.qmail@web81210.mail.yahoo.com> > If someone could find statistics on the cost of > public schooling > divided according to primary and secondary education > I would be > quite appreciative. Check out the Statistical Abstract of the United States: http://www.census.gov/statab/www/ prepared by the Census, it has everthing you want and more. From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 12 05:14:23 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:14:23 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000f01c4f865$94baec40$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "MB" > IMHO having children is a full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a > combination of the two. Hmmm, well I had two children and full time jobs (so did my mother, and my grandmother). Next. > [full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a > combination of the two. Why limit childrearing to just those two? Other people in the child's life (many many other people) can play important roles in child rearing. Nannies - child care workers - relatives - extended family - teachers - counselors - and more inanimate "teachers" like books and television (I am one that happens to love television, and have done a lot of maturing/thinking through the years watching everything from old movies to talk shows, as well as news to documentaries - TV *is* a *great* babysitter IMO). I wish I had "books on tape" when I was growing up, to supplement my reading-books-the-old-fashioned-way - but I digress. > Yes, it is lovely that women have freedom to work now outside the > home, it is a fine and good thing. Lovely, you say? (And why didn't you say "... it is lovely that men have freedom to work now outside the home.[?]" - because they are the "default" breadwinner of something?) IMO - this is not just a fine thing, it's a *crucial* thing for both men and women (and their offspring, should that happen). And this "thing" is not going to go away. > It is an excellent thing that fathers can take time to be home with > children - that they do not have to work all the time. Hey - as far as I'm concerned, fathers can take time to be home with children - or not. It's their choice. There are others who can take up the slack. Fathers (and mothers) who work to support their children are doing a lot already. There are many ways to show children you love them - spending time with them is one way, being away from them (at work) is another. > However, this is a consumer society, Olga - you've complained about > it before, as have I. IMHO if one has a child one has taken on a > commitment that lasts for at least 18 years, and there may need to be > sacrifices made to honor that commitment. Financial sacrifices, even. I was complaining about spending money on the stupid horse-and-pony show at the White House and cloning cats, but I'm *very* serious about the worthiness of children. As for self-sacrifice - I know I've said it here before and I haven't changed my mind about it. IMO children are an *indulgence* ... one of the greatest *indulgences* in one's life. There *are* sacrifices some people make for their children - I knew a woman who had three boys, two of whom had cystic fibrosis. The things that woman had to go through every day was what I would consider somewhat of a sacrifice (although I'm sure she never thought so, knowing her) I personally had children because I wanted them (selfish reasons). And I've felt indulged beyond my wildest dreams. I don't understand "sacrifice" or "financial sacrifice" when it comes to children. Honoring commitments? You mean *loving them*? (I guess - having been reared away from the United States - I don't understand these things very well. There are lots of things I don't understand about many "typical American parents" - and I suppose I never will.) Olga > If one is not willing to make the sacrifices then perhaps one > shouldn't be having kids. > > Single parents are in a particularly difficult place in this regard. > If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have made some different > choices. Children do benefit from two parents. Hell, *parents* benefit > from two parents. That's because parenting is a full time job. For > somebody. > > Been there, done that. > Regards, > MB > > > On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > From: "Kevin Freels" > > > > > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that > > > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to > > > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > > > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > > > expensive "paid for" cars. > > > > Begging your pardon (again), but ... second job? *Second* job? Whose > > second job? > > > > 1) Adult people work for many reasons - even independently rich people have > > been known to work (not because they have to - but for various good > > reasons). While not a norm in every culture, we (supposedly) value gender > > equality (and are finally able to achieve some semblance of this, thanks to > > near-perfect birth control and other reproductive options). That's what > > equality is all about - not just equal freedom, but equal responsibility, as > > in being financially responsible = i.e., being a $elf-$ufficient grown up > > person. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... > > > > and > > > > 2) Not all families have two incomes because not all families (by choice of > > chance) have two adult heads-of-household. Yippee, it is 2005, after all > > ... > > > > and > > > > 3) It may have been necessary at one time in human history (when there was > > no choice, especially in matters of birth control), but for an adult to > > somehow feel obligated to support another *adult* is a very bad idea, > > indeed. We no longer need to do this. (There are exceptions, of course - > > some people are not able to work, are sick, mentally unbalanced, what have > > you...). Children are financially supported - and as a result children, > > being children - have a diminution of their "rights." (Children, in effect, > > trade in some of their "rights" for this financial support - the way women > > in the past traded in their "rights" by being financially supported.) But - > > yippee, and what a relief it is to live in 2005 ... when women no longer > > need to be play the part of "children." > > > > and, I think ... > > > > 4) One can't comfortably and justifiably say "fuck you" to anything or > > anyone unless one is financially self-sufficient. As a financially > > self-sufficient grown up woman, I wouldn't give up this privilege for a > > million bucks (i.e., I wouldn't give up my self-sufficiency for anything or > > anyone - why would *any* adult want to give their independence up?). And > > because it's 2005 - I don't have to. > > > > "Second job" my arse. Get serious, Kevin. > > > > Arrrrrrrrrrrrr, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...., > > Olga > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 05:29:30 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:29:30 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > >> If, on either side of your chance of heart, you would subject them to >> a simulated Rapture, would they be on the "losing" or "winning" end >> of same? :-) > > Hmm. I thought "god's side" winning was part of the story. > What I was getting at is whether in the sim environment they would experience the milk and honey side of things or all the tribulations. The latter might be more educational. >> I would be more tempted to run them through a sim where humanity >> destroys itself but before they die they understand utterly that >> their own erroneous beliefs and those of their siblings in spirit, >> were responsible and that their beliefs were in fact totally bogus. > > Not worth it. Bad enough to give them want they claim to want. I > suspect the operators would have to mess with their boredom threshold > to keep them from going mad after a simulated thousand years of > singing around a simulated thrown of God. > Yep. >> No need for upload though. A vivid set of induced dreams should do >> the trick. > > I think having a bunch of them in the throws of induced rapture dreams > flailing around in reality isn't a good idea. In fact, that's much > the problem we have now. > What I was thinking of would be strictly within their dreams. I am speaking of vivid dreams here rather than psychotic breaks. The point being that if the nature of their beliefs make them utterly immune to discourse or evidence or argument then only some other means can possibly get through to them just how horrid a world-view they have made allegiance with. This is about the most moral way I can come up with at the moment of stopping the fundies of all kinds and religions from destroying us all. It would be most moral to do so in a way that left some hope for them to be healed and able to turn the best of their ideals to work on the creation of a real "promised land". - samantha From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jan 12 05:39:39 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:39:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education Message-ID: <1105508379.10980@whirlwind.he.net> There are a lot of misconceptions about funding and wages of schools, public and private, in the United States. This is one of my favorite topics, so I'll just throw down some gross summaries; people can google if they want more detail. - On average, private schools spend roughly half of what public schools spend per student on elementary school education. For high school education, it is around 70%. - Public school teachers have average salaries that are comfortably above the US average, and usually 20-30% above their private school peers. Despite union whining to the contrary, teachers are not underpaid (I have a number of public school teachers in my family, and can back up the statistics with anecdotal evidence). - While private school spending is far tighter, a much larger percentage of the budget goes directly to the teacher and the classroom (as would have to be the case given the spending disparities). - The US spends more per student for basic education than virtually every other industrialized nation, even in cow towns where the cost of living is low. And, well, I think most people are at least loosely familiar with our legendary return on investment. - The US spends substantially more of its tax revenue at all levels on public education than its famously large defense budget, even today. cheers, j. andrew rogers From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 05:39:55 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:39:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <6364FC1A-645C-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Hemp grows wild in quite a few climates. It is a very hardy oversized weed. And no, it will not get you high. Hemp has been used for rope, cloth, various usages for its oil and so on for hundreds of years. The current "drug war" attitudes toward the highly overbred intoxicating varieties should not lead us to swoon and roll our eyes whenever hemp is mentioned. -s From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 05:52:54 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:52:54 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Big Sound theory Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111235046.01b9b1e8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/01/12/1105423539638.html?oneclick=true Universe is flat with a ripple January 12, 2005 - 3:02PM Australian astronomers have discovered the so-called missing link that relates modern galaxies such as the Milky Way to the Big Bang that created the universe almost 14 billion years ago. The breakthrough came after a decade of research by an Australian-led team from the Anglo-Australian Observatory. The findings have been confirmed by independent research from the American-led Sloan Digital Sky Survey, announced today at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society in San Diego, California. Scientists found the universe is flat, with ripples that began as the tiniest variations in radiation left over from the Big Bang, which many cosmologists believe gave birth to the universe. As it cooled after the giant explosion, the infant universe was actually making a sound and those waves produced the ripples. The way galaxies are scattered across the sky now corresponds to the sound waves in the early times of the cosmos, researchers have found. The project - called the two-degree field galaxy Redshift survey - involved mapping the three dimensional distribution in space of 220,000 galaxies, using complex astronomical instruments at the Anglo-Australian telescope in north-western New South Wales. A research team member and Anglo-Australian Observatory scientist, Russell Cannon, said the findings were of enormous importance. "What we've done is show the pattern of the galaxies, the distribution of the galaxies which we see here and now, is completely consistent with this other pattern that's seen in remnants of the big bang," he told AAP. The research, Dr Cannon said, added serious weight to the Big Bang theory about the origin of the universe. "We've known for a long time that the best theory for the universe is the Big Bang - that it started in some enormous explosion in a tiny space and it expanded ever since," he said. "What we can now be much more confident about is that it is the right basic idea, it all bolts together very nicely." A surprise result of the research was new evidence about the expansion of the universe. Scientists had believed the universe was expanding but was gradually slowing down because the force of the gravity should be pulling it back together. "So the idea was that we started with an explosion, it blows out but it gradually goes slower as it's expanding," Dr Cannon said. "What the observations have proved is that it's not expanding, it's accelerating. It means that some other force is at work or some other physics. It's not just the simple gravity picture we had to start with." The decade of research, Dr Cannon said, had also taken astronomy forward as a science. "It's moved cosmology from what was almost a philosophical discussion to what you might call a proper bit of science, of physics, where we're measuring numbers and we're able to do a proper comparison of these theories and observations." - AAP From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:09:17 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:09:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> You make very good points and bring up excellent questions. > > > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** The short and of necessity first answer is that we can in no wise allow the world to collapse into another dark age. The question is how to avoid it. One of the best ways to avoid this but also quite dangerous is to advance the technology so far and so rapidly that many more options exist to guarantee its continuance and or the ability of the technology possessing technophiles to fend off any/all attacks by others. Of course the technology this side of FAI does not care whether the users of the technology are wise or suicidal. The technology can and most likely will be wielded by the foes of human progress as well as by its friends. A better way is to persuade those with power of the necessity of continuing technological progress AND to not use some of the technology to oppress the population so deeply that progress and human happiness is destroyed or too greatly curtailed. Persuading masses of the population of the wisdom of this course would be very good. But I don't have very small hope that this can be done quickly enough even in the developed countries. Doing it in the 2nd and 3rd world especially in lands governed by religions that brook no moderation or questioning of their tenets is beyond what I believe is possible in time. Those who believe just because they believe and are closed to reason are great dangers as the technological acceleration puts more and more power in fewer hands for less cost or allows masses of such to vote policy to ambitions and foolhardy leaders. I think that it is necessary if we are serious about a truly extropian future that we create the space legally, psychologically, physically, economically and ethically to proceed with the work of expanding extropy regardless of whatever laws and restrictions the world may throw up. There can be no just law restricting this work. I do not believe it is extropic to simply give up if say the US goes effectively theocratic or massively anti-technological progress in important areas and persuades or bullies most of the rest of the world into going along. We need safe havens where the necessary work can go on. Another level of prudent dedication to extropy is to find a way to hibernate the technology and knowledge for the day when it can resurface. If collapse is a possibility then we owe it to ourselves and to those who come later to take this step. If we do get to the place where such a collapse is actually in progress (it can happen very quickly in some scenarios) and we have not prepared then it is likely too late for all but very small amounts to be saved. We lose. So before we get to such a place, besides doing everything we can to avoid such a possibility, we must build contingencies to save all of the knowledge and "seed technology" that we possibly can. We must have a way to set up some sort of guardians of the knowledge and information who protect it, use it and re-introduce it as quickly as is possible. Alternately we would need a way to set up a high technology enclave that is self-sufficient and able to defend itself if need be against anything the rest of the world can throw at it. Off planet would be nice but most likely not doable in the immediate future. The most likely minimalist scenario is a (hate this) sort of secret society/priesthood guarding and maintaining the knowledge. > > Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" > suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but > here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't > bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're > dead. Let's be pragmatic. > > Yes. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:16:37 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:16:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050111170159.56957.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050111170159.56957.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <840E52AC-6461-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >> You don't >> supplant prescientific myths by saying you have a >> better form of the >> same thing. > > You'd be surprised how often it works. > >> This would be equivalent to claiming >> that chemistry was >> actually modern alchemy > > It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: there > is no question among serious historians that modern > chemistry had its origins in alchemy. Having origins in and being the same as are quite different things, yes? > Granted, there > have been many many refinements and upgrades to the > process over the centuries, such that we now refer to > them by two different names, but it is technically > correct to say that chemistry is modern alchemy. No, it is not. The purpose, not to mention the methodology and eschewing of mystical elements makes it very much not "modern alchemy". > >> and astronomy nothing but >> scientific >> astrology. > > True again - if by "scientific astrology" you include > "attempting to find a scientific explanation for the > patterns of the stars that were observed in > astrology". But finding a scientific explanation for astronomical events is precisely what astrology was not about. That they both look at the same objects does not remotely mean they are the same. > One could arguably fit all of astronomy's > discoveries - including redshifts, black holes, dark > matter theories, and so forth - under that defintion, > for are they not all aspects of the fundamentals that > our night sky revealed to ancient humans (even if many > of the aspects themselves were undreamt of until > recently)? > No. Why attempt to twist yourself into a pretzel like this? - samantha From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jan 12 06:20:04 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:20:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning Message-ID: <1105510804.30116@whirlwind.he.net> Dirk wrote: > A report from a (now dead) father of a friend who saw some form once. > He said it was created where two parts of the lightning discharge crossed. It has nothing to do with "crossed discharges". The Great Plains of the United States has extremely energetic and unusual storm systems that are largely unique to that region, and in the couple years I lived out there as a teenager, I saw "ball lightning" twice. My take: It is clearly an energetic electromagnetic phenomenon, but I would also assert that it has little to do with lightning; it is a phenomenon that occurs in proximity to lightning storms because there are similar prerequisites. It tends to only interact with conductive materials. And it passes through neutral materials like cellulose and glass without interacting at all. In fact, if I had to make a wild-ass guess, the basic properties and peculiarities of it makes it look like an energetic EM phenomenon in something like the microwave range. Imagine, for example, if the peculiar electromagnetic meteorological structures of the region acted as resonators, EM waveguides, or even massive magnitron tubes (or masers?). If you've seen some of the bizarre energetic structure of these storms in the several cubic kilometer range, it would not be surprising. I've lived in many places that had severe storms, but the Great Plains region of the US has extremely violent lightning storms and very unusual atmospheric phenomenon that I have never seen anywhere else. That "ball lightning" is also common there is probably not a coincidence, in the same way that the unusual frequency of tornados there is not. j. andrew rogers From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jan 12 06:22:24 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:22:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education Message-ID: <1105510944.31132@whirlwind.he.net> *snips* his bulletpoints You can find a lot of comparative statistics from the US Department of Education, which tracks both public and private schools. cheers, j. andrew rogers From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:31:13 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:31:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <8E262FA0-6463-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Is that wholly the fault of the people? Our civilization in general has gone debt crazy as our economy seems to be set up to only continue to operate if more and more is created and consumed at an ever increasing rate. Quite a system of pressures all push towards high rates of consumption at the level of individuals and groups of all sizes. I would also point out that even if you live frugally and without a second car (not a luxury if commuting by two to different locations including one ferrying kids around and taking care of the home), big screen TV etc, raising even a small family in many parts of the country is barely possible if at all for many single earner households in the US. The effective costs are quite high unless one does a lot off the normal consumer grid. - samantha On Jan 11, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Kevin Freels wrote: > As a result of doing what they >> need to do to avoid unemployment, many parents find >> themselves without time or energy to interact with >> their children during the week beyond maybe dinner >> together - and sometimes not even that. > > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is > that > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes > to > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > expensive "paid for" cars. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sentience at pobox.com Wed Jan 12 06:43:49 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:43:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <41E4C725.3010602@pobox.com> One of the important major characteristics of a religion that is missing from Singularitarianism, and will remain missing so long as I have any say in the matter, is the revenge fantasy. There are many people out there with silly phobias and prejudices - people convinced that being photographed will steal their soul, or that being uploaded will steal their soul, etc. It may be that much of Earth's population, perhaps *all* of it, will require emergency first aid post-Singularity. I do not think those decisions should be made (solely) by human minds, with such weak grasps on futures and consequences; or to put it more vividly, you can't ask people to make that kind of decision while their minds are still described by the volume "Choices, Values, and Frames" (edited by Tversky and Kahneman). But that choice which must be made by some decision process, should not be chosen in a spirit of revenge. Nor condescension. Nor even annoyance. If my own efforts are successful, and my hopes and insights have any validity, it will not be so. So these emotional forces which lead you to take vicious satisfaction in envisioning these outcomes, are not the forces which shall shape the true future. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:50:13 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:50:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2005, at 8:16 PM, MB wrote: > > IMHO having children is a full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a > combination of the two. Well, no, it isn't and hasn't been during most of human history. Of course we used to put the little ones to work with us as soon as they were able to do anything useful. We used to teach a bit more responsibility a bit earlier. But don't get me wrong. I do agree that it requires a lot of work and more than a few sacrifices. But it does not require full-time oversight by one or the other parental unit 24/7. In the old days when mom (usually mom) stayed home she wasn't exactly just or even primarily minding the little ones. Households in the fifties and earlier took a LOT of work and even then it took a fair amount of ingenuity to make ends meet. It is a fairly recent phenomenon requiring more than a little in the way of modern gadgetry that we even can think of a stay home parent as doing so primarily for the sake of the children. My mom was a fulltime housewife. Largely we kids were set to various chores and for the rest of the time told to go outside and play and get out from underfoot so she could do her manifold tasks in piece and maybe have some moments to herself. It was not some idyllic for-the-kids-sake scene by any means. > > Yes, it is lovely that women have freedom to work now outside the > home, it is a fine and good thing. > > It is an excellent thing that fathers can take time to be home with > children - that they do not have to work all the time. > > However, this is a consumer society, Olga - you've complained about > it before, as have I. IMHO if one has a child one has taken on a > commitment that lasts for at least 18 years, and there may need to be > sacrifices made to honor that commitment. Financial sacrifices, even. > One's career is not up for sacrifice just because one becomes a parent. Not an option unless full time parenting/housekeeping is a career one prefers for a time. > If one is not willing to make the sacrifices then perhaps one > shouldn't be having kids. > There is a big difference between necessary sacrifices and costs and what some view as necessary to satisfy their preferred model of how it should be. > Single parents are in a particularly difficult place in this regard. > If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have made some different > choices. Children do benefit from two parents. Hell, *parents* benefit > from two parents. That's because parenting is a full time job. For > somebody. Kids benefit from two parents and having a live-in spouse/mate makes a lot better assuming compatibility and so on. OK. But I still am not buying that parenting is a full-time job. It is a lot of work for sure. - samantha From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jan 12 07:01:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:01:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <41E34F29.2020402@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the urns, in any combination you like, then leave the room. You ask a random person to enter the room, choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. You pull out one zorf without looking. Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs in the urns such that you maximize the probability that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? spike From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 12 10:26:35 2005 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:26:35 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41E4FB5B.4010304@optusnet.com.au> spike wrote: > > You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large > identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the > urns, in any combination you like, then leave the > room. You ask a random person to enter the room, > choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She > shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom > you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. > You pull out one zorf without looking. > > Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. > > Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs > in the urns such that you maximize the probability > that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > Assuming all the zorfs must go in an urn :-) You put one red zorf in one urn and all the white zorfs and the rest of the red zorfs in the other. Probability you will get a red zorf is (.50 + (N-1)/(2N)) Otherwise you put half the red zorfs in one urn, half in the other and defenestrate the white ones. -david From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 12 17:06:42 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:06:42 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: Most full time jobs are not 24/7. IMHO if parenting does not come at or very near the top of the priority list, then the job will likely not be done well. One is "on call" always, 24/7, which can certainly call for sacrifce. Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the family, to be personally responsible. Currently (at least in the USA) personal responsibility is greatly underrated! Actually, I 'spect we agree more than our words show. :) In no way did I mean that parenting is *necessarily* a sacrifice, but it sure can suddenly require such. There's only so many hours in the day, and the young are young for a limited time. We've got to be there *then*! Regards, MB From hemm at openlink.com.br Wed Jan 12 16:42:20 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:42:20 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41E4FB5B.4010304@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <03db01c4f8c5$af5f2330$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Agreed, but for different reasons: Appart from mathematics, knowing my wife very well, I'd put only one red zorf in the first urn and all the other zorfs in the other. My wife would without any doubt bring me the lighter urn... :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again > Assuming all the zorfs must go in an urn :-) > You put one red zorf in one urn and all the white zorfs and > the rest of the red zorfs in the other. > Probability you will get a red zorf is (.50 + (N-1)/(2N)) > Otherwise you put half the red zorfs in one urn, half in > the other and defenestrate the white ones. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 12 19:11:23 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:11:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> > > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > family, to be personally responsible. Did you know that a self-employed person may employ their own children as long as they are at any age where thay can be reasonably be bapable of performing the tasks? They are exempt from minimum wage laws as well. You still get to write off their pay as payroll and they have to file taxes on that income as with any other employer. This gives a nice little tax advantage if you are self-employed and have many children. :-) From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 19:06:44 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:06:44 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41E57544.6070008@neopax.com> spike wrote: >You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large >identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the >urns, in any combination you like, then leave the >room. You ask a random person to enter the room, >choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She >shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom >you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. >You pull out one zorf without looking. > >Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. > >Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs >in the urns such that you maximize the probability >that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? > > > You fill each urn with 50:50 red and whites. You make sure the red ones are on top. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 19:09:21 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:09:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning In-Reply-To: <1105510804.30116@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1105510804.30116@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <41E575E1.3000006@neopax.com> J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >Dirk wrote: > > >>A report from a (now dead) father of a friend who saw some form once. >>He said it was created where two parts of the lightning discharge crossed. >> >> > > >It has nothing to do with "crossed discharges". The Great Plains of the United States has >extremely energetic and unusual storm systems that are largely unique to that region, and in >the couple years I lived out there as a teenager, I saw "ball lightning" twice. > >My take: It is clearly an energetic electromagnetic phenomenon, but I would also assert that >it has little to do with lightning; it is a phenomenon that occurs in proximity to lightning >storms because there are similar prerequisites. It tends to only interact with conductive >materials. And it passes through neutral materials like cellulose and glass without >interacting at all. > >In fact, if I had to make a wild-ass guess, the basic properties and peculiarities of it makes it >look like an energetic EM phenomenon in something like the microwave range. Imagine, for >example, if the peculiar electromagnetic meteorological structures of the region acted as >resonators, EM waveguides, or even massive magnitron tubes (or masers?). If you've seen >some of the bizarre energetic structure of these storms in the several cubic kilometer range, >it would not be surprising. > > > > I rather doubt the uwave explanation. The kind of intensity that would create and sustain a ball of plasma would have serious effects well outside of that zone as well. I suspect that it is some kind of self confining plasma with very high currents flowing in very low resistance paths. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From scerir at libero.it Wed Jan 12 19:28:02 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:28:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how many exabytes? References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> ... 5 exabytes: all the words ever spoken by human beings. ... 6 exabytes: information in the genomes of all the people in the world. Don't we need better definitions of all these different in-formations? s. References: http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/research/projects/ how-much-info-2003/execsum.htm#paper http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/information.html From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 19:49:51 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:49:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E57F5F.7020809@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > >>Samantha Atkins wrote: >> >> >> >>>Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as >>> >>> >>safe. >> >> >>No, they just think they do. >>The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far >>outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. >>The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, >>even once in their lives. >> >> > >The one time I became a victim of assault, the assailant was high on >drugs, and I was unarmed. As many of you know, I am not a small man. I >pack a punch, and I have some training in hand to hand combat. This guy >just wouldn't go down. After pummelling him several times and >attempting to walk away several times, the police finally showed up >(this happened on a well populated street in the club district of >Burlington, VT) after about 15 minutes, when I was pretty worn out and >worried about ending it positively. > > > One of the things about a good martial art is that it will teach you several ways to knock someone like that unconscious. Or straight out kill them, depending on the requirement. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From hemm at openlink.com.br Wed Jan 12 20:06:28 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:06:28 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41E57544.6070008@neopax.com> Message-ID: <04d801c4f8e2$33737b00$fe00a8c0@HEMM> *If* the zorfs stay put. But what if they move? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Bruere" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again > You fill each urn with 50:50 red and whites. > You make sure the red ones are on top. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 12 21:00:36 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:00:36 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: Yes, this is so. But the "reasonably capable" is not necessarily what you might think. As for having the kids working at the family business, been there, done that. :) Regards, MB On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Kevin Freels wrote: > > > > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > > family, to be personally responsible. > > Did you know that a self-employed person may employ their own children as > long as they are at any age where thay can be reasonably be bapable of > performing the tasks? They are exempt from minimum wage laws as well. You > still get to write off their pay as payroll and they have to file taxes on > that income as with any other employer. This gives a nice little tax > advantage if you are self-employed and have many children. :-) From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 20:58:51 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:58:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050112145403.01a58ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> It's much easier on extropy-chat now that any topic at all can be discussed under the subject line "change of topic". Here's a suggestion that will make it even easier from now on. Let's make all subject lines read simply: "topic". Or even easier, leave them blank. Or better still, those people who don't understand what subject lines are used for (to identify the topic under discussion) might stop posting altogether. So much neater that way. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 21:07:31 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:07:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111210122.01aeae60@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050112210731.56518.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: > > >According to my information, the government spends more than twice > as much > >per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing that tax > burden > >would foster a flourishing private school industry. > > > Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm > > EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA > > - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per resident > > - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil > > > So the *best* private schools manage to charge less than half that? > Wow. This are faked numbers. They don't include infrastructure costs that are generally hidden in the comprehensive town or school district reports. http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/Misc/PNPublicEducationSpending2004-6.htm Washington State admits here that for it's 1 million K-12 students, it spends $9 billion ($9,000 per student), and that: "Private vs. Public School Expenditures The 80,985 K-12 private school students in Washington made up seven percent of the total K-12 students in Washington in 2003. In the Seattle school district, the largest in the state, the proportion of private school students was significantly higher - 15,190 out of 47,853 (32%). While the administration of private schools is different from public schools, their costs per student can be one indicator to judge public education expenditures. About 36% of overall private school students in Washington attend Catholic schools (aprox. 29,000 Catholic school students in 2002-03). The average actual cost for educating a child at a Catholic elementary or high school in Western Washington is $7,696, about $2,000 less than the $9,454 spent per K-12 public school student in Washington. The average actual cost for educating a child at a Catholic school in Eastern Washington is $4,128 and in Central Washington it is $4,170, both about $5,000 less than is spent for public school students. The Washington Federation of Independent Schools surveyed 122 private and religious schools in Washington about the 2003-04 school year. The Federation found that the average private school tuition in Washington for grades 1-4 was $5,095, the average tuition for grades 5-8 was $6,109 and the average tuition for high school was $8,249. The survey also asked whether the tuition covered the school's actual costs per student. Twenty-six percent of schools reported that their actual cost was at or below their tuition, 53% reported that their actual cost was between $1 and $1,500 more than their tuition, and 21% reported that their actual cost was more than $1,500 higher than their tuition. " ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 21:17:01 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:17:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050112211701.72528.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > > You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large > identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the > urns, in any combination you like, then leave the > room. You ask a random person to enter the room, > choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She > shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom > you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. > You pull out one zorf without looking. > > Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. > > Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs > in the urns such that you maximize the probability > that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? You put all the white zorfs on the bottom of both urns... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 12 21:51:06 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:51:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <41E57F5F.7020809@neopax.com> Message-ID: <011701c4f8f0$d2308090$9ceafb44@kevin> I think that martial arts is a very good way to handle things if they get close enough, but personally I prefer to keep my distance if at all possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Bruere" To: "Mike Lorrey" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > > > > > >>Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as > >>> > >>> > >>safe. > >> > >> > >>No, they just think they do. > >>The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far > >>outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. > >>The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, > >>even once in their lives. > >> > >> > > > >The one time I became a victim of assault, the assailant was high on > >drugs, and I was unarmed. As many of you know, I am not a small man. I > >pack a punch, and I have some training in hand to hand combat. This guy > >just wouldn't go down. After pummelling him several times and > >attempting to walk away several times, the police finally showed up > >(this happened on a well populated street in the club district of > >Burlington, VT) after about 15 minutes, when I was pretty worn out and > >worried about ending it positively. > > > > > > > One of the things about a good martial art is that it will teach you > several ways to knock someone like that unconscious. Or straight out > kill them, depending on the requirement. > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 22:12:31 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <04d801c4f8e2$33737b00$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: <20050112221231.2961.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> SHoot them. --- Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > *If* the zorfs stay put. But what if they move? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dirk Bruere" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:06 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again > > > > You fill each urn with 50:50 red and whites. > > You make sure the red ones are on top. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 22:32:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:32:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <8E262FA0-6463-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > I would also point out that even if you live frugally and without a > second car (not a luxury if commuting by two to different locations > including one ferrying kids around and taking care of the home), big > screen TV etc, raising even a small family in many parts of the > country is barely possible if at all for many single earner > households in the US. The effective costs are quite high unless one > does a lot off the normal consumer grid. The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't get into debt to start with and watch your standard of living go up. Buy what you need in cash, don't borrow, don't get yourself in a position where you need to borrow. Getting off the grid is not hard, and not a sacrifice. Even here in relatively high cost of living NH, it is only hard if that is the life you choose. And don't live some place with a big public school system. People think that public schools save them time. It doesn't. As we've shown, the average public school education costs $9,000. If you have three kids, it is only cost effective for both spouses to work outside the home if the lowest wage earner has a TAKE HOME income of ~$40k. If you make that much, you could quit your jobs, keep your taxes, homeschool your kids, have one less car (That extra $13k covers vehicle loan, insurance, operating costs, etc. as well as after school babysitting, etc.), and have the exact same standard of living. If spousal equality is so important, each could take a part time job instead of a full time one, share in the schooling etc and have the same standard of living. Getting off the tax grid is the important thing. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 22:40:49 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:40:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <011701c4f8f0$d2308090$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050112224049.83576.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I think that martial arts is a very good way to handle things if they > get close enough, but personally I prefer to keep my distance if at > all possible. And a martial artist is still at a disadvantage when an attacker is armed. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From megao at sasktel.net Wed Jan 12 22:41:11 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:41:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] red/white zorfs Message-ID: <41E5A787.8040202@sasktel.net> Put one of each color with the remainder being the opposite color in each urn. Pull out 3 zorfs from one urn. If you pull 3 red ones you know all the rest save one are the right one from that urn. If you pull out more than one white one you know the other urn has all the red ones save one. The more zorfs you have the better the odds that this is the most efficient way to make a choice. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From megao at sasktel.net Wed Jan 12 22:46:42 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:46:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees-hemp cannabinoid antioxidants] Message-ID: <41E5A8D2.1080808@sasktel.net> Below is one reason why I include 20-30 grams per day of dried hemp bud which contains arginine rich seed protein, omega spectrum of oils and a wide array of compounds including Cannabidiol, a no psychogenic cannabinoid. You can essentialy consume hemp until the sight of it sickens you or like zuchini , you run out of new ways to hide it in your diet. But given its efficacy as a small molecule antioxidant and capacity to mimimic other antioxidants it seems to be for real. THE JOURNAL OF PHARMACOLOGY AND EXPERIMENTAL THERAPEUTICS Vol. 293, No. 3 Copyright ? 2000 by The American Society for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics Printed in U.S.A. JPET 293:807?812, 2000 /2483/828669 Cannabinoids Protect Cells from Oxidative Cell Death: A Receptor-Independent Mechanism1 YANQIU CHEN and JOCHEN BUCK Department of Pharmacology, Joan & Sanford I. Weill Medical College of Cornell University, New York, New York Accepted for publication March 9, 2000 This paper is available online at http://www.jpet.org ABSTRACT Serum is required for the survival and growth of most animal cells. In serum-free medium, B lymphoblastoid cells and fibroblasts die after 2 days. We report that submicromolar concentrations of D9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), D8-THC, cannabinol, or cannabidiol, but not WIN 55,212-2, prevented serumdeprived cell death. D9-THC also synergized with plateletderived growth factor in activating resting NIH 3T3 fibroblasts. The cannabinoids? growth supportive effect did not correlate with their ability to bind to known cannabinoid receptors and showed no stereoselectivity, suggesting a nonreceptor-mediated pathway. Direct measurement of oxidative stress revealed that cannabinoids prevented serum-deprived cell death by antioxidation. The antioxidative property of cannabinoids was confirmed by their ability to antagonize oxidative stress and consequent cell death induced by the retinoid anhydroretinol. Therefore, cannabinoids act as antioxidants to modulate cell survival and growth of B lymphocytes and fibroblasts. Marijuana has been known for centuries to be a psychoactive medicinal plant (Nahas, 1984). Among its .60 different cannabinoids, (2)-D9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol are most abundant (Turner et al., 1980). (2)-D9-THC is the most potent psychoactive compound in marijuana and cannabidiol is nonpsychoactive (Dewey, 1986). In recent years, two cannabinoid receptors, CB1 and CB2, have been identified as G protein-coupled 7-transmembrane-spanning receptor proteins (Matsuda et al., 1990; Munro et al., 1993). CB1, preferentially expressed in brain, mediates the psychoactivity of cannabinoids. CB2 is highly expressed in immune cells; however, its biological functions have yet to be determined. There are numerous, sometimes contradictory, reports of cannabinoid effects on proliferation and cytolysis of T cells, proliferation and antibody production of B cells, nitric oxide (NO) release by macrophages, and cytolysis of natural killer cells (Thomas et al., 1998). During metabolic cellular processes, oxidative species such as superoxide radical anion, hydrogen peroxide, and lipid peroxides are generated intracellularly (Scandalios, 1997). These oxidative species, if not eliminated, damage DNA, protein, or membrane lipids and cause oxidative cell death. Thus, endogenous antioxidative enzymes such as superoxide dismutase, catalase, and peroxidase, as well as endogenous small-molecule antioxidants such as vitamin E, vitamin C, and ubiquinol are required for cells to survive (Scandalios, 1997). Exogenous small-molecule antioxidants also have been shown to effectively prevent oxidative cell death in cultured cells (Busciglio and Yankner, 1995; Johnson et al., 1996; Nakao et al., 1996; Hampson et al., 1998). In this report, we study the mechanism whereby cannabinoids affect cultured human B lymphoblastoid cells and mouse fibroblasts. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Discussion In this study, we showed that (2)-D9-THC, (2)-D8-THC, cannabinol, or cannabidiol at submicromolar concentrations prevented serum-deprived cell death of human B lymphoblastoid cells and mouse fibroblast cells. The cannabinoids? growth supportive effect did not correlate with their ability to bind to known cannabinoid receptors and showed no stereoselectivity, suggesting a nonreceptor-mediated pathway. Direct measurement with flow cytometry revealed that cannabinoids prevented cell death by antioxidation. The antioxidative property of cannabinoids was supported by the same action of cannabinoids and a-tocopherol in our assays and by the ability of cannabinoids to antagonize the oxidative stress and consequent cell death induced by anhydroretinol. Our results expand on the knowledge that the antioxidative effect of (2)-D9-THC and cannabinol protects cultured rat cortical neurons from glutamate induced excitatory cell death (Hampson et al., 1998). The observed cannabinoids? effect on 5/2 and NIH 3T3 cells may be attributed to their antioxidative property. Human lymphoblastoid 5/2 cells, on Epstein-Barr virus transformation, no longer require cytokines for growth; thus, supplementation with antioxidants alone in serum-free ITLB medium is sufficient to maintain cell growth. However, NIH 3T3 cells arrested by serum-starvation still require growth factors such as PDGF to grow. [3H]Thymidine incorporation quantifies the total number of cycling cells; therefore, it measures both the degree of activation and the survival of activated cells. Our data suggest that cannabinoids may act as antioxidants to prevent oxidative cell death of activated cells occurring under serum-free conditions without directly promoting cell activation. Cannabinoids? antioxidative properties also may explain the conflicting reports about NO release on treatment with cannabinoids in cultured mammalian macrophages (Coffey et al., 1996; Jeon et al., 1996; Stefano et al., 1996). Cannabinoids increase NO release by coupling to their receptors (Stefano et al., 1996). But at higher concentrations antioxidation by cannabinoids dominates, leading to a decrease in NO release by inhibition of the redox-sensitive nuclear factor- kB activation, which is required for the expression of NO-producing enzyme inducible NO synthase (Coffey et al., 1996; Jeon et al., 1996). The potency of the antioxidative activity of naturally occurring and synthetic cannabinoids in our assay agrees with that predicated from their chemical structures (Hampson et al., 1998). (2)-D9-THC, (2)-D8-THC, and cannabinol highly resemble the antioxidant vitamin E and have a benzopyrene moiety substituted with a phenoxyl group and a hydrophobic alkyl chain. Cannabidiol contains a phenolic structure typical of many antioxidants isolated from plants. In contrast, the synthetic cannabinoid WIN 55,212-2 lacks the structural moieties that chemically define the antioxidative activity. Cannabinoids, depending on concentration, exert at least three cellular effects via distinct mechanisms: receptor mediated, antioxidative, and cytotoxic. In immune cells at nanomolar concentrations, cannabinoids bind to CB2 and activate Gia(Bayewitch et al., 1995; Slipetz et al., 1995) and mitogenactivated protein kinases (Bouaboula et al., 1996), thus may enhance cell activation as demonstrated in B-cell proliferation assays (Derocq et al., 1995). The receptor-mediated action is stereospecific and is blocked by the CB2-specific antagonist SR 144528 (Rinaldi-Carmona et al., 1998). At submicromolar concentrations, both receptor-mediated and antioxidative mechanisms are in play. The relative importance of the two mechanisms depends on assay conditions. In low-serum or serum-free conditions, antioxidation may outweigh the CB2-mediated processes; cannabinoids, acting as antioxidants, prevent oxidative cell death and enhance cell proliferation. At concentrations .1026 M, the nonreceptormediated cytotoxic effect of cannabinoids often dominates (Schwarz et al., 1994; Zhu et al., 1998). Cells constantly produce oxidants such as superoxide radical anion, hydrogen peroxide, and lipid peroxide (Scandalios, 1997). They rely on antioxidative enzymes such as superoxide dismutases and catalases, and small-molecule antioxidants such as vitamins A, C, E, and ubiqiunol found in serum to maintain the right balance of cellular redox potential (Frei et al., 1992). Cellular oxidative stress affects cell proliferation and cell death and is involved in physiological as well as pathological events such as fertilization (Shapiro, 1991), host defense (Babior, 1978), aging (Sohal and Weindruch, 1996), tumorigenesis (Cerutti, 1985), stroke (Coyle and Puttfarcken, 1993), and AIDS (Baier-Bitterlich et al., 1996). Cannabinoids, especially the nonpsychoactive cannabinoids, may become clinically useful antioxidants in preventing and treating the oxidative stress-related diseases. enhance human B-cell growth at low nanomolar concentrations. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From benboc at lineone.net Wed Jan 12 22:49:42 2005 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:49:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <200501121922.j0CJMXK00479@tick.javien.com> References: <200501121922.j0CJMXK00479@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41E5A986.3030205@lineone.net> Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again "in any combination you like" OK, the combination i like is to first put the white zorfs in each urn, then the red ones. ben From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 23:05:37 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:05:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] CA Extropes: Microsoft owes you money Message-ID: <20050112230537.70855.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Microsoft owes you money: If you live in California and purchased Microsoft Windows, Excel or Word between Feb. 18, 1995, and Dec. 15, 2001, you're owed a piece of California's $1.1 billion settlement against Microsoft. The original deadline for filing a claim was Jan. 8, but Microsoft has extended it because of technical problems with the settlement Web site. Claimants now have until Jan. 22 to submit their paperwork, which is a good thing, because far too few people seem to have taken advantage of the offer. In fact, the Settlement Recovery Center (SRC), which assists businesses and non-profits making claims in class actions, recently said fewer than 1 million claims out of a potential 14 million have been filed so far. That's just pathetic. "Companies don't understand what's at stake," said SRC founder and CEO Howard Yellen in a statement. "The Microsoft settlement is great, but it's not well understood. We have quite a few corporate clients who will recover over a million dollars each." Those wishing to collect their "fair share" (and don't forget my birthday on Jan 19th!!!): http://www.settlementrecovery.com/cases/microsoft.jsp http://www.microsoftcalsettlement.com/ ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 23:17:53 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:17:53 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050112145403.01a58ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050112145403.01a58ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:58:51 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > It's much easier on extropy-chat now that any topic at all can be discussed > under the subject line "change of topic". Here's a suggestion that will > make it even easier from now on. Let's make all subject lines read simply: > "topic". Or even easier, leave them blank. Or better still, those people > who don't understand what subject lines are used for (to identify the topic > under discussion) might stop posting altogether. So much neater that way. > Heh! :) It does save space to have everything under one topic. But it makes filtering by subject header rather difficult. >From the Extropy-chat List Guidelines: "Since the topic of discussion on the list can change constantly within a single thread, we ask that the subject lines change accordingly. If you feel that a thread is going off the original topic, that's perfectly fine, but please change the subject line to let all list readers know what the topic has become." ------------------------------- RFC 1855 (Netiquette Guidelines) is rather more stern: "Mail should have a subject heading which reflects the content of the message. Subject lines should follow the conventions of the group. Messages and articles should be brief and to the point. Don't wander off-topic, don't ramble and don't send mail or post messages solely to point out other people's errors in typing or spelling. These, more than any other behavior, mark you as an immature beginner. If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand when they start to read your response. Giving context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!" ----------------------------------- BillK A : Top Posting Q : What annoys you about Usenet? From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 23:35:26 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:35:26 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050112224049.83576.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050112224049.83576.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E5B43E.5040107@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Kevin Freels wrote: > > > >>I think that martial arts is a very good way to handle things if they >>get close enough, but personally I prefer to keep my distance if at >>all possible. >> >> > >And a martial artist is still at a disadvantage when an attacker is armed. > > > Unless one is out looking for trouble, or deliberately putting oneself in harms way, the attacker *always* has the initiative. They pick the time, place, mode of attack, weapons, severity etc. In most of the fights I've seen the defender would not have had time to pull a gun, because the first blow was the one that felled them. The gun would only get pulled afterwards, for revenge. And when people have carried weapons eg a knife, again it's invariably the attacker who uses it first (which is what one might expect). The situation where a law abiding citizen is minding their own business in the street and is attacked after a measure of warning (and cannot get away) is extremely unusual. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From reason at longevitymeme.org Wed Jan 12 23:31:51 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:31:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] discussing bioconservatism at Imminst Message-ID: <200501121731.AA818151656@longevitymeme.org> An interesting debate on bioconservatism (with a real bioconservative, even) is taking place at the Immortality Institute. I recommend that those of you with well-formed opinions on the matter as it pertains to transhumanism, healthy life extension, the nature of being human, lines, boundaries and whatnot come and join in. http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=5051&hl=&s= Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 23:46:19 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:46:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS Message-ID: <41E5B6CB.9070403@neopax.com> http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm Opinions? Anyone in the UK like to try some experimental work on low level field generators for large (ish) volumes eg rooms? And, of course, Persingers work in general with respect to 'hauntings'. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Jan 12 23:48:33 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050112234833.68730.qmail@web81201.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't > get into debt to > start with and watch your standard of living go up. Yep, that is the trick. If you don't "sell your soul to the company store" you are a lot better off...but once you do, like then, it is a tough trap to get out of. > And don't live some place with a big public school > system. What difference does that make, given how much funding is State and Federal? That throws your calculation way off. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 00:18:16 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning In-Reply-To: <41E575E1.3000006@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050113001816.20965.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > I rather doubt the uwave explanation. > The kind of intensity that would create and sustain a ball of plasma > would have serious effects well outside of that zone as well. > I suspect that it is some kind of self confining plasma with very > high currents flowing in very low resistance paths. Given that ball lightning can go through walls, I doubt that plasma has anything to do with it either. With lightning, you are dealing with tens of millions of volts and millions of amps. The amount of energy in this is essentially electrostatic, not electromagnetic in nature. ANY dielectric material can hold a charge field: air, brick, gypsum board, etc. but once established it is the field itself that holds itself until discharged through a conductor. My uncles home was infested by ball lightning once. It came down the chimney, went through a wall, and blew out his television. The number of times I've heard about ball lighting coming down chimneys makes me wonder if it is the bricks, particularly if the chimney has a lightning rod with poor grounding, that help establish the dielectric field. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 06:28:08 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:28:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transformation of a paradigm? Message-ID: <20050113062808.81263.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> IBM Gives Open Source Developers Free Access to 500 Patents http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/ap/ap_2011105.asp?trk=nl Shootin' from the hip, wild guess, no time to look into it deeply. IBM, having made a committment to open source, now takes a stab at a business model. Give some of your stuff away to create a demand for your other stuff. Could this be a big little thing, or a little big thing? Time on my hands. Finished the honkin' big solarium on the honkin' big cedar deck I put on the back of the not-at-all-honkin'-big house. But it's cozy. Built the deck last year, the solarium from April this y..., er, well I guess it's last year, now. Faces the Strait of Georgia, two hundred thirty five degrees true. Now we pack for Baja. Best, Jeff Davis Eternity is a long time, especially toward the end. Woody Allen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 06:30:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:30:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <41E5B6CB.9070403@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic wave of any reasonable coherence? (Sorry, the world's satellite networks *AREN'T* up to the task. Neither are more conventional broadcast networks. And that's assuming either one could be coopted by one central organization, and assumption that is easily shown false if you take a look at the wide range of organizations that actually operate the various satellites and transmitters.) 1a. Specifically, how to do the above with the exceedingly high precision necessary for neural induction? 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that seems to be about as far as anyone's gotten? 3 and most importantly. Even if this were feasable, it would be a rather unextropian act. The ends do not justify the means; eradicating all who oppose us (say, by reprogramming them away) is very unlikely to actually lead to the society that we desire, as demonstrated by the results of comparable approaches (genocide, eugenics) in the past. (A case could be made that it's theoretically possible to achieve what we want by these methods, if one studies why the previous attempts failed. But that is irrelevant here, since this just proposes a new method of controlling people without addressing why trying to control people - regardless of exact method - has failed.) My initial take is that stuff like this has no place on the extropy-chat list...though I might be wrong. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 06:40:52 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111201407.94272.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050113064052.42437.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > These are first-rate suggestions. And perhaps let > certain children 'merely' obtain decent employment > and not be comprehensively educated until they are > in their late teens & twenties? That's already happening. One problem is, education isn't just a tool, it's an innoculation. There are those who prey upon the adult uneducated, and their first move (if they want a long-term victim) is often to get their prey to reject any further education. Say, by painting "intellectuals" as elitists who don't see the truth that the uneducated are lead to believe, and have little concern (or even active disdain) for the uneducated. Mix bits of truth with things that either can not be disproven or lead to rejection of all attempts to disprove, and...well, you wind up with neoluddites and many of the rest of the people we like to complain about. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 06:50:52 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050113065053.38069.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- alexboko wrote: > *** What should we do to keep technological progress > humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** Short answer: we don't. If that happens, we've lost. Long answer: learn and practice the technologies yourself. A new dark age can only arise if people stop using modern technology. That hardly seems realistic at this point. People might frown on genetically modified foods and cloning and other new things, but make any serious progress towards halting mechanized farming and you'll get pro-tech food riots almost overnight. Likewise, ban the Internet and you'll find massive civil disobedience, far worse than anything seen during Prohibition. Still, technological progress may be delayed if people get scared away from developing technology; if you take it upon yourself to develop what no one else will (and publish your results, maybe as books or articles, maybe as patents, or if you're really successful as products for sale), then progress on that front continues even if everyone else shies away. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 07:01:56 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <840E52AC-6461-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050113070156.15696.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Jan 11, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> This would be equivalent to claiming > >> that chemistry was > >> actually modern alchemy > > > > It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: > there > > is no question among serious historians that > modern > > chemistry had its origins in alchemy. > > Having origins in and being the same as are quite > different things, yes? Yes, but that was not quite what was stated. "Chemistry" != "alchemy", but "chemistry" = "modern alchemy". Note the "modern", which can be read as "has origins in". > Why attempt to twist yourself into a pretzel > like this? To demonstrate why caution should be taken when choosing one's words. ;) In this case, what you probably meant to say was just "chemistry was actually alchemy", not "chemistry was actually modern alchemy". It's semantics, true. But semantics can be (and often are) used by our opponents to twist the meanings of our words far away from what we meant, even while keeping them perfectly in context. This was a relatively minor example. From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 07:15:52 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:15:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ethics for the Robot Age Message-ID: <470a3c5205011223156a653eb8@mail.gmail.com> Most people's expectations of robots are driven by fantasy. These marvelous machines, optimists hope, will follow Moore's law, doubling in quality every 18 months, and lead to a Jetsonian utopia. Or, as pessimists fear, humanoid bots will reproduce, increase their intelligence, and wipe out humanity. Both visions are wrong. The artificial intelligence to animate robots remains several orders of magnitude less than what's needed. We have to master either software engineering or self-organization before our most intelligent designers can dare play in the same league as Mother Nature. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.01/view.html?pg=1?tw=wn_tophead_5 From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 07:23:41 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:23:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Online Dispute Resolution Message-ID: <470a3c5205011223232643d446@mail.gmail.com> Legal IT has a very interesting article on the penetration of advanced IT in the legal world. Leading edge computing will soon provide massive dispute-resolving capability for a fraction of today's price. This growing scale, added to greater connectivity between users around the globe, offers tremendous opportunities to build intelligent systems, i.e. platforms that can adapt to their users' requirements and can learn from experience. Other ODR [online dispute resolution] services have been established to effectively resolve cases themselves. Such systems offer a high degree of sophistication in negotiation and settlement skills, often relying upon artificial intelligence. For example, SmartSettle.com uses mathematical algorithms to help find a resolution to disputes, creating what is frequently described as an 'automated negotiation tool'. This maximises the economic benefits to both parties by creating a low cost process. A world where people will be resolving millions of disputes online. Disputes arising in human resources problems; education; in relationships between government, the people and business; in e-commerce and e-trading; in community and workplace disputes; in business disputes with customers and suppliers; and, of course, 'big-ticket' global commercial disputes. http://www.legalit.net/ViewItem.asp?id=22571 From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jan 13 07:39:59 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:39:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <001901c4f943$16568330$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "MB" > Most full time jobs are not 24/7. IMHO if parenting does not come at > or very near the top of the priority list, then the job will likely > not be done well. One is "on call" always, 24/7, which can certainly > call for sacrifce. Well, now, and I've always thought of time away from work as "leisure time." As for being "on call" 24/7 - surely you exaggerate. A lot. I mean, we are always "on call" with everything in life (and with various sorts of emergencies that could befall friends and family - not just children). Except for some unfortunate or unlucky people, the numbers game pretty much guarantees more "leisure time" than "emergency" time during one's life for the rest of us. Children or no children. > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > family, to be personally responsible. Currently (at least in the USA) > personal responsibility is greatly underrated! I'm not sure to what you are referring. I never imputed that I thought children should work (the way some of them used to work before child labor laws were instituted) - I said IMO it was good policy for *adult women* to be self-supporting. > Actually, I 'spect we agree more than our words show. :) I 'spect so, too. Somewhat related to the subject we've been discussing, what do you think of this latest Maureen Dowd column?: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/13/opinion/13dowd.html?oref=login&hp Olga From eugen at leitl.org Thu Jan 13 11:17:02 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:17:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] NASA Releases Free Global Climate Model Software Message-ID: <20050113111702.GP9221@leitl.org> Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/13/0043227 Posted by: samzenpus, on 2005-01-13 06:30:00 from the hurricane-in-the-classroom dept. ink_polaroid writes "NASA [1]has released its [2]Educational Global Climate Model (EdGCM) for high school and university desktop computers. The software incorporates a 3-D climate model developed at NASA's [3]Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), New York. It wraps complex computer modeling programs with a graphical interface familiar to most PC users." IFRAME: [4]pos6 References 1. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050111/dctu070_1.html 2. http://www.edgcm.org/ 3. http://www.giss.nasa.gov/ 4. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=2936&alloc_id=13732&site_id=1&request_id=9089608 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at ideoware.com Thu Jan 13 17:00:04 2005 From: david at ideoware.com (David McFadzean) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:00:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists Message-ID: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> title: Do You Want to Live Forever? source: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 author: Sherwin Nuland quote: If we are ever immolated, it will be by the efforts of well-meaning scientists who are convinced that they have our best interests at heart. We already know who they are. They are the DNA tweakers who would enhance us by allowing parents to choose the genetic makeup of their descendants unto every succeeding generation ad infinitum, heedless of the possibility that breeding out variety may alter factors necessary for the survival of our species and the health of its relationship to every form of life on earth; they are the biogerontologists who study caloric restriction in mice and promise us the extension by 20 percent of a peculiarly nourished existence; they are those other biogerontologists who emerge from their laboratories of molecular science every evening optimistic that they have come just a bit closer to their goal of having us live much longer, downplaying the unanticipated havoc at both the cellular and societal level that might be wrought by their proposed manipulations. And finally, it is the unique and strangely alluring figure of Aubrey de Grey, who, orating, writing, and striding tirelessly through our midst with his less than fully convinced sympathizers, proclaims like the disheveled herald of a new-begotten future that our most inalienable right is to have the choice of living as long as we wish. With the passion of a single-minded zealot crusading against time, he has issued the ultimate challenge, I believe, to our entire concept of the meaning of humanness. From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 17:01:47 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:01:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] fwd: The Genre Evolution Project Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113110049.01a61ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> "The Genre Evolution Project is testing the hypothesis that cultural creations evolve in the same way as biological organisms, that is, as complex adaptive systems that succeed or fail according to their fitness to their environment and, by their existence and success, modify their environment. The project presents many challenges. - How does one define the key characteristics of a cultural creation? - How does one define the key components of the cultural environment? - How does one test hypotheses in cultural evolution? "The Genre Evolution Project began in January, 1998. As a test case, the GEP currently focuses on science fiction short stories in America of the 20th century. Membership in the GEP team is arranged through the principal investigators, Eric Rabkin and Carl Simon. Individual team members participate either as purely voluntary researchers or through some more institutionalized mechanism such as independent study or the Undergraduate Research Opportunity Program." http://www.umich.edu/~genreevo/ From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 18:08:47 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:08:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> Message-ID: <20050113180847.69832.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- David McFadzean wrote: > title: Do You Want to Live Forever? > source: > http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 > author: Sherwin Nuland Check their forums: reader feedback has been solidly negative against Nuland's article. One even suggested that Mr. de Grey be allowed an equal-sized article rebutting this feature article. Two cover articles on the same topic in two months in close proximity would seem a bit much, but perhaps he would care to contact the editors of this magazine and point out what their own readers are literally asking for? From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 18:35:41 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:35:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> References: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >title: Do You Want to Live Forever? >source: >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 >author: Sherwin Nuland This statement is typical yet strange: `When our inherent biology decrees'. But pragmatically `our inherent biology' seemed perfectly content for almost every human in history and prehistory to perish at about half that maximum, if not very much sooner. I deplore this sad hankering after an essentialist `decree' that allows doctors like Nuland to squeeze the last drop out of what is in nature wildly`*un*natural' while clinging to some masked version of authoritative or `sacred' prohibition. Nuland's essay is notable as well for its whiny and reiterated complaints about Aubrey's intelligence and energy. (What a nerve! Being smart! Being confident! Being articulate!) I expect to see this sort of complaint in Halfwits Review, not Technology Review. Damien Broderick From alexboko at umich.edu Thu Jan 13 18:41:02 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:41:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? Message-ID: <41E6C0BE.2090901@umich.edu> Adrian Tymes wrote: > Short answer: we don't. If that happens, we've lost. I'm a transhumanist. I don't accept defeat preemptively. For any problem and level of information about that problem, there is at least one solution with the greatest chance of a favorable outcome. I want us to start looking for that solution, and when we find it, I want us to start implementing it. > Long answer: learn and practice the technologies > yourself. A new dark age can only arise if people > stop using modern technology. No, that's not the only way a new dark age can arise. Here are a few more: A. Climate change B. Depletion of feasibly extractable resources (including energy) C. War D. Tyranny E. Long-term economic depression F. Nuclear/biological/chemical attack G. Plague It doesn't even have to be a full-on medieval time. Rolling back to the 1800's would be enough to guarantee permanent death for most or all of those alive today plus those already in cryosuspension. There has to be a failsafe. From ag24 at gen.cam.ac.uk Thu Jan 13 18:58:21 2005 From: ag24 at gen.cam.ac.uk (Aubrey de Grey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:58:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists Message-ID: That's nothing -- check out the accompanying commentaries: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp Cheers, Aubrey From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 19:02:31 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:02:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <20050113180847.69832.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> <20050113180847.69832.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205011311022c1f7dc9@mail.gmail.com> I just posted this comment on the TR comment forum for the article: --- Yes I do want to live forever, and don't see what is wrong with this. As soon as science and technology will permit defeating aging and death, which are, as Aubrey de Grey says, diseases (actually painful and horrible diseases), we will take advantage of such new options, as our species has done since the dawn of time. Thank you Aubrey for issuing the ultimate challenge, Mr. Nuland believes, to our entire concept of the meaning of humanness. Of course Mr. Nuland does not offer any definition of this "meaning of humanness", nor any rational argument in defense of his irrational ideas. --- and I can see that all readers who posted comments so far disagree with the author and support Aubrey. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Jan 13 19:27:15 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:27:15 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: Well, it sorta sounds like re-enacting the Foundation Trilogy! Preparation and archiving are very wise even if bad times do not come. It's always good to know where you came from. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Samantha Atkins wrote: > You make very good points and bring up excellent questions. > > > > > > > > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** > > The short and of necessity first answer is that we can in no wise allow > the world to collapse into another dark age. The question is how to > avoid it. [...] > The most > likely minimalist scenario is a (hate this) sort of secret > society/priesthood guarding and maintaining the knowledge. > > > > > > Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" > > suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but > > here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't > > bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're > > dead. Let's be pragmatic. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 19:25:38 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050112234833.68730.qmail@web81201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050113192538.40227.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't > > get into debt to > > start with and watch your standard of living go up. > > Yep, that is the trick. If you don't "sell your soul > to the company store" you are a lot better off...but > once you do, like then, it is a tough trap to get out > of. > > > And don't live some place with a big public school > > system. > > What difference does that make, given how much funding > is State and Federal? That throws your calculation > way off. Depends on the state you are in. Here in NH, we have no income or sales tax at the state or local level. There are local, county, and state property taxes, so their burden is proportionate to your property valuation. Property valuation is largely impacted by regulation. Restrictive zoning, planning, and other ordinances increase market value of property by creating artificial scarcity, ergo the way to minimize your tax burden is to live in an area with no such ordinances in place. Having a large geographic area with few children needing education and a high incidence of homeschooling/private schooling among those who do also helps reduce your tax burden. However, my calculus of the previous post is more of a macroeconomic model. Few, if any, people with three kids pay $27,000 in taxes to educate their kids. That burden is spread around among many people without kids: young single people, elderly retired people, childless couples, in a way that is morally illegitimate. Those that have kids already seek to use public policy to close the door on those who want kids in order to prevent increasing the public education tax burden. Economically exiling young breeding couples who earn below the median income is a common occurence in many communities through the use of regulation to prevent housing development. Communities that do not have the ability to become high value, high income enclaves can only reduce their tax burden by reducing and/or eliminating the centralized public school infrastructure, decentralizing the public school system to a network of small neighborhood schools/resource centers similar to the sort of one room school house system that grew in the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that created the highest level of literacy in our history. The era of the behemoth super-school is over. The cost of such infrastructure is a relic of the union movement toward monopolizing the educational labor supply and does not add value to the education of children. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 19:55:50 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:55:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113134616.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> But wait, there's more: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp < But what struck me is that he is a troll. For all de Grey's vaulting ambitions, what Sherwin Nuland saw from the outside was pathetically circumscribed. In his waking life, de Grey is the computer support to a research team; he dresses like a shabby graduate student and affects Rip Van Winkle's beard; he has no children; he has few interests outside the science of biogerontology; he drinks too much beer. Although he is only 41, the signs of decay are strongly marked on his face. > My god! Aubrey doesn't wear a suit! He's (by implication) a drunk! He works with computers! Aging destroys your boyish looks! (Oh wait, isn't that one of the reasons for wishing not to suffer the effects of aging? Oh wait once more, didn't Nuland just write that `he is a boyishly handsome man'?) http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp And this is such a penetrating sentence: < What does Nuland think of the bearded de Grey's offer of immortality? > A beard! That surely shows what nonsense his claims must be! Damien Broderick From alexboko at umich.edu Thu Jan 13 20:06:50 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:06:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism Message-ID: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> All of us are deeply vested in a complex, high-tech society. We are staking almost everything on the assumption that this society will not collapse the way every great civilization before us did. I humbly propose that we dedicate some fraction of our intelligence to putting together a contingency plan in case we're wrong. The stereotypical "survivalist" strategy is forming a small, isolated community in an easily farmed area with naturally occurring fresh water, and reliance on technology that does not require a large infrastructure to produce. If you are satisfied with such a lifestyle, now is the time for you to actively start seeking out or forming such a community. I sincerely wish you the best-- if you succeed perhaps someday we will be allies and trading partners. The more survival strategies are in play, the better it will be for the human species. However, there are those individuals for whom a low-tech lifestyle is not acceptable. For instance, people with chronic illnesses that require advanced medical intervention; people whose sense of purpose is intimately tied to technology; people who wish to preserve our cultural and scientific acchievements for future generations. These individuals can still find hope in re-examining the assumption that a low-tech lifestyle is the only sustainable lifestyle. I invite these individuals to join me in planning for a community that will be resilient to most collapse scenarios. I. Plan A. Brainstorming i. This document will be opened for comments and revision and then finalized as a draft. A procedure for reopening the document for updates will be decided. A system for decisionmaking will be implemented to insure each question is deliberated with as much objectivity and insight as possible. ii. A venue will be decided for this and future document-related activities-- mailing list, wiki, Sourceforge, etc. iii. As necessary, temporary working groups will be formed for the purpose of in-depth development of various parts of the plan. iv. Individuals posessing strategic skills, knowledge, and resources will be recruited to the project and directed toward the appropriate working group. B. Draft plan C. Venture capital acquisition D. Physical implementation II. Possible causes of collapse. Remember, ideology has no place here. We are not interested either in alarmism or denial. What we are interested in figuring out what to expect from each scenario and its likelihood of happening. A. Climate change B. Depletion of feasibly extractable resources (including energy) C. War D. Tyranny E. Long-term economic depression F. Nuclear/biological/chemical attack G. Plague III. Underlying Assumptions A. By definition, once a collapse occurs, there can be no broad-ranging governmental solution (although public policy measures might be used to buy more time before the collapse). B. Economics, politics, and culture are real, if not always well-understood, factors that must be anticipated for any plan to succeed. A plan that only factors in technical feasibility is doomed from the start. C. Only people the plan can rely on are the participants, and the only resouces the plan can rely on are the resources controlled by the participants. Every step of the plan must be feasibly acchievable with what we have at hand. D. The plan cannot rely on any technologies that are not already mature (cheap space travel, fusion, nanotechnology, AI), but it must be flexible enough to take advantage of them if and when they are developed. E. The plan must make a good faith effort to comply with the laws of the relevant jurisdictions. The plan must respect individual freedom. F. The plan must assume a 50 year time window to implementation at maximum. It should strive for at least partial implementation within 10 years. G. Politics, ideology, religion, all take a back seat to pragmatism. The primary criterion must always be "DOES it work?" not "SHOULD it work?" H. The plan must be fully transparent to its participants, and constantly seek ways to improve. IV. Basic strategies. A. Global population control Looking for alternatives to governmental coercion for rapidly reducing population pressure; educating the public and decision-makers about these alternatives. This is unlikely to eliminate the risk of collapse, but may delay its onset and severity. B. Recruitment Identifying individuals with strategic skills/knowledge/resources and persuading them to join the project. C. 'Leibowitz' project Ever read Canticle for Leibowitz? If you have, you'll know what I mean by this. The centerpiece of the plan-- a sustainable community that manages not only to preserve but extend the boundaries of scientific knowledge no matter what chaos engulfs the world beyond its borders. V. The most crucial questions A. How can we buy more time? B. How much time do we need to buy? C. What are the crucial lines of R&D that must continue to be pursued no matter what? D. What is the minimal shopping list of manufactured goods needed to allow these lines of R&D to continue? E. What is the minimal shopping list of raw materials needed to continue the crucial lines of R&D as well as supply them with the manufactured goods they require? F. Which manufactured goods and raw materials are feasible to stockpile for the projected time window? G. What are the minimal and maximal numbers of people needed to make adequate progress in the crucial lines of R&D as well as to keep the community self-sufficient? H. What real estate meeting the needs of this community can be feasibly purchased and developed by the members? I. How much cash will this require? J. How can market mechanisms be used to raise this cash? K. How can individual freedom and innovation within the community be optimized without compromising its long term survival? L. How can the community sustainable and scalably expand to recolonize abandoned/depopulated areas? M. What is the most reliable and durable medium for preserving current knowledge, including knowledge that does not directly pertain to the crucial R&D topics? N. How do we prioritize the preservation of knowledge in this medium? I'm interested in what this group has to say about the above draft plan. However, to actually participate in the project, I ask that you email me directly-- alexboko at umich.edu. Please include a phone number (with area code) you can be reached at, the city you live nearest to, any skills/attributes/attributes you feel are relevant to this project, and any thoughts you might like to share. From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 20:26:33 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:26:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> What's truly extraordinary is that while Dr. Nuland ends by asserting "It is a good thing that his grand design will almost certainly not succeed. Were it otherwise, he would surely destroy us in attempting to preserve us", he makes no attempt at all to show why this might be so, let alone must be. All we get is smarmy handwaving and loaded language: "biogerontologists who study caloric restriction in mice and promise us the extension by 20 percent of a peculiarly nourished existence;" (i.e. not eating like glutted swine on fats and sugars until we expire from our self-inflicted obesity) "if we are to accept de Grey's first principle, that the desire to live forever trumps every other factor in human decision-making, then self-interest--or what some might call narcissism--will win out in the end." `Narcissism', for what it's worth, is the psychiatric label for basing your self-estimate on the way other people regard you (as Narcissus fell in love with what he took to be the face of another gazing back at him in a mirrored pond). Yet de Grey as portrayed in the article, and in the disgraceful editorials, is quite immune to that kind of socially imposed self-evaluation. How interesting and self-lacerating this error is. But in any case, does the desire to live a maximal healthy life trump *every* other factor? I doubt that Aubrey, or most of those in this forum, would make that claim. The curious thing is that at the basis of the scornful attitudes deployed in those editorials and the essay itself is a conviction that life is `granted' to us--by some supernatural agency, presumably--and that this *does* trump every other factor: "Aging is the condition on which we are given life," we are instructed. Well, I guess that settles it. No further argument is required. Luckily, because none is offered. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 20:35:53 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:35:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Deconstructing Nuland In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050113203553.77616.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 > >author: Sherwin Nuland > > This statement is typical yet strange: > > span that nature has granted to our species. Nature has never granted our species any guaranteed minimum or maximum life span. We have long since exceeded that barrier, when savage cro magnon's and even ancient homo sapiens sapiens average life expectancy was MAYBE 30 years (i.e. what "nature" "granted" humanity). > For reasons that are pragmatic, scientific, demographic, economic, > political, social, emotional, and secularly spiritual, I am > committed to the notion that both individual fulfillment and the > ecological balance of life on this planet are best > served by dying when our inherent biology decrees that we do. So, it has nothing to do with 'nature' and everything to do with her political agenda. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 20:51:46 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:51:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] message lags? Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113144950.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> I know I'm breaking with tradition by using a subject line other than "change of topic", but I'm reckless that way. Here's the thing: I posted something nearly an hour ago that hasn't shown up yet. Are other people having this trouble? Maybe it's Road Runner. Damien Broderick From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Thu Jan 13 20:52:57 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:52:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <41E6DFA9.70601@humanenhancement.com> I've always liked the idea of the Long Now clock, which incorporates just the sort of archive of information that's been discussed here: http://www.longnow.org/ It's one reason I often use a five-digit date for the year; if for no other reason than to remind myself to always think in the (very) long-term. They've also begun something called the Rosetta Project, which has obvious applications in terms of maintaining knowledge: http://www.rosettaproject.org/ Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta MB wrote: >Well, it sorta sounds like re-enacting the Foundation Trilogy! > >Preparation and archiving are very wise even if bad times do not come. >It's always good to know where you came from. > >Regards, >MB > >On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > >>You make very good points and bring up excellent questions. >> >> >> >> >>>*** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along >>>should the world collapse into another dark age? *** >>> >>> >>The short and of necessity first answer is that we can in no wise allow >>the world to collapse into another dark age. The question is how to >>avoid it. >> >> >[...] > > > >> The most >>likely minimalist scenario is a (hate this) sort of secret >>society/priesthood guarding and maintaining the knowledge. >> >> >> >> >>>Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" >>>suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but >>>here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't >>>bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're >>>dead. Let's be pragmatic. >>> >>> >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 20:58:06 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:58:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] message lags? 2 Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113145615.01997cd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> I should have added that my messages *have* appeared already in the archive. Just wondering if there's a lag in vectoring posts out to other extropy-chat subscribers? BTW, Mike, Sherwin Nuland is a he not a she: http://www.holy-cross.com/professionals/stluke/DrNuland.htm Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 21:09:45 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4f81c$be3c1d80$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050113210945.17348.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't think that the decade of the '50s was merely a repressive nightmare. Besides we're second-guessing history, the '40s were even worse, what with WWII. Perhaps we should have avoided that big ugly war with a pax Germania & pax Nippon? >Riiiiight ...when you could still get good help and discrimination ruled and segregation was >in flower... >Olga --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 21:25:07 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050113192538.40227.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050113212507.63413.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The collateral issue is: Are the parents clueless, resulting in them dumping the responsibility for public schools on the government and unions? Also (and this might be going into tinfoil hat territory) there might be a good economic reason for educational mediocrity: the demand for higher wages by semi-illiterate manual laboring native born Americans is great, resulting in greater automation than one would have if firms rely more on foreign labor importation. At least that is how it was explained to me. Mike Lorrey wrote: Few, if any, people with three kids pay $27,000 in taxes to educate their kids. That burden is spread around among many people without kids: young single people, elderly retired people, childless couples, in a way that is morally illegitimate. Those that have kids already seek to use public policy to close the door on those who want kids in order to prevent increasing the public education tax burden. Economically exiling young breeding couples who earn below the median income is a common occurence in many communities through the use of regulation to prevent housing development. Communities that do not have the ability to become high value, high income enclaves can only reduce their tax burden by reducing and/or eliminating the centralized public school infrastructure, decentralizing the public school system to a network of small neighborhood schools/resource centers similar to the sort of one room school house system that grew in the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that created the highest level of literacy in our history. The era of the behemoth super-school is over. The cost of such infrastructure is a relic of the union movement toward monopolizing the educational labor supply and does not add value to the education of children. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 21:29:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:29:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050113212959.52963.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large > identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the > urns, in any combination you like, then leave the > room. You ask a random person to enter the room, > choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She > shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with > whom > you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. > > You pull out one zorf without looking. > > Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your > faves. > > Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs > in the urns such that you maximize the probability > that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? > How? Leave the urns open. Put all the red zorfs in one urn and all the white zorfs in another. Make sure to specify in your request for urn fetching that you want the one with the red zorfs. Just because you don't look into the urn doesn't mean your spouse doesn't. (And of course you don't look: your spouse earned your trust before becoming your spouse, and maintained your trust enough for you not to seek a divorce, no?) Even the random person, if she had acted on your request (perhaps she really really doesn't like red zorfs), would have been more likely than not to pick the correct one: color blindness and sociopathy are so rare as to be labelled "disorders". From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 21:37:16 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:37:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism In-Reply-To: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050113213716.17511.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- alexboko wrote: > II. Possible causes of collapse. > Remember, ideology has no place here. We are > not interested either in alarmism or denial. > What we are interested in figuring out what to > expect from each scenario and its likelihood > of happening. Counterpoint: maybe the best way to survive is to address each possible cause of collapse, and prevent it from happening - or, at least, prevent it from being able to collapse humanity? For example, I myself am working on a possible contributor to a prevention of resource exhaustion, and (long term) would like to work on development of a lunar colony large enough to sustain technological progress even if most of Earth descends into war. (Granted, this inherently requires tech that isn't yet mature - but it looks like it will become mature before civlization could totally collapse. It's not like society could realisitically collapse literally tomorrow, emphasis on "realistically".) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 22:02:01 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:02:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > `Narcissism', for what it's worth, is the psychiatric label for > basing your self-estimate on the way other people regard you (as > Narcissus fell in love with what he took to be the face of another > gazing back at him in a mirrored pond). Uh, no, Damien. The common understanding of this myth is that Narcissus had excessive self-love, which is what narcissism is classified as by pshrinks. Ergo, any behavior that is deemed too 'selfish', ego-centric, self-involved, is claimed to be narcissistic in nature. If you care more about your immortality than the survival of the greater ecology, according to the critic in this article, you are therefore 'narcissistic' for being so selfish. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Thu Jan 13 22:02:02 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:02:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B20E@amazemail2.amazeent.com> This is good but I think you need to factor your possible causes of collapse more carefully. At the lowest level, we want to prevent technological stagnation or collapse. There are many necessary conditions for technological progress. Facilities and infrastructure, demand for technology, availability of funding, availability of researchers, and sufficient population to maintain society are good examples. Failure of any of these conditions will halt progress. Social devastation will likely reverse progress. Each of these conditions can be triggered by several means. War could destroy facilities and infrastructure, and focus research demand and funding on weaponry. A human plague would destroy the population necessary to support a social infrastructure and would focus research on biotechnology. A totalitarian government could strongly inhibit research except that which helps maintain the status quo and bolster the power of those in charge. Massive climate change could destroy infrastructure as well as population. A food plage which destroyed monoculture would just as surely cause loss of human life as a plague directly on humans. Resource depletion would focus research on means to increase availability and efficiency of resource use. An extraterrestrial extinction event such as an asteroid strike or unexpected solar event could also be devastating. An economic collapse would remove the ability to continue progress just as surely. Finally we get to the motive. Some of these things will happen unless we take action to stop them, such as resource depletion. Some need preventative preparation, such as an asteroid strike. But most failures would be due to social forces such as religious fundamentalism, fear of technology and the future, ultraconsumerism, and tyrrany. We need to consider all three of these levels when determining contingency plans. One plan will most likely not be sufficient. We also can not afford to ignore the contingency planning which has already been done by survivalist organizations, governments, and other groups. We will gain the most leverage by immediately working to shape the social forces which could guide us into a dark age and avoid a collapse entirely. Next most important is minimizing the effect of any collapse event and preserving as much of society as possible. Least important is recovering from a collapse. Acy From eugen at leitl.org Thu Jan 13 22:24:19 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:24:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism In-Reply-To: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> References: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050113222419.GI9221@leitl.org> On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 02:06:50PM -0600, Alex F. Bokov wrote: > All of us are deeply vested in a complex, > high-tech society. We are staking almost Yes. > everything on the assumption that this > society will not collapse the way every > great civilization before us did. I humbly Yes. Because we're screwed, if it happens. At least, until systems are self-maintaining, if not evolving. > propose that we dedicate some fraction of > our intelligence to putting together a > contingency plan in case we're wrong. > > The stereotypical "survivalist" strategy is > forming a small, isolated community in an > easily farmed area with naturally occurring > fresh water, and reliance on technology that > does not require a large infrastructure to > produce. I really like Vinge, but there are a few points which stroke me against the fur. A leading theme in his oevre is a ridiculously fast advance of a small band of people. About every second person is a genius and shaper to put Ayn Rand to shame. It's a nice ideal society, but not exactly realistic. A genius-grade society would be easily two orders of magnitude more dynamic (if support is done by automation), but it's not obvious we'd get lots of geniuses in a land overflowing with milk & honey. And anything else would just fall back to a far more primitive state of technology. > If you are satisfied with such a lifestyle, > now is the time for you to actively start > seeking out or forming such a community. I If you can't get liquid nitrogen, or at least enough energy for sustained -150 C refrigeration until the new Dark Ages are over, you're screwed. There's not enough critical mass in a small bands of people to keep status quo afloat. At least, with current level of technology. If you want knowledge to survive, that's relatively easy: just bury lots of compact libraries (Rosetta stones included), where one will be eventually discovered. However, it will be of no direct use to anyone who's soaking in one of these long dark teatimes of the soul. > sincerely wish you the best-- if you succeed > perhaps someday we will be allies and trading > partners. The more survival strategies are in > play, the better it will be for the human > species. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Jan 13 22:49:58 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:49:58 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Parenting (was change of topic) In-Reply-To: <001901c4f943$16568330$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <001901c4f943$16568330$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "MB" > > > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > > family, to be personally responsible. Currently (at least in the USA) > > personal responsibility is greatly underrated! > > I'm not sure to what you are referring. I never imputed that I thought > children should work (the way some of them used to work before child labor > laws were instituted) - I said IMO it was good policy for *adult women* to > be self-supporting. My confusing response. I lumped your email and Samantha's email on the same subject. In olden times children worked at home, either really *working* as on farms, or doing "chores" around the house (which IM experience was mostly make-work). This could assuage some of the work involved with parenting - although I think S and I were talking past each other a bit. Then Kevin added that children still were allowed to work for the family business. But to me even these do not alleviate the 24/7 responsibility of parents. *Especially when children are young.* > > Somewhat related to the subject we've been discussing, what do you think of > this latest Maureen Dowd column?: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/13/opinion/13dowd.html?oref=login&hp That's an old tune that's been played before. IMHO there is some truth in it. Quite sad. Some men feel threatened by smart successful women, some men do not. There's a lot to be said for a loving heart and gentle demeanor. It's easier to live with, much of the time. Perhaps (some? many? most?) smart women who are successful in the business world are more "pushy"? It's hard to turn off the work persona at 5 PM. Maybe men feel pushed at work and do not want to feel pushed at home. Regards, MB From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 23:37:40 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] message lags? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113144950.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050113233740.91346.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > I know I'm breaking with tradition by using a > subject line other than > "change of topic", but I'm reckless that way. Now, now, it wasn't the subject for *all* the discussions of late. Just perhaps too many. > Here's > the thing: I posted > something nearly an hour ago that hasn't shown up > yet. Are other people > having this trouble? Maybe it's Road Runner. I've been experiencing more lag in message-sent-to-message-in-my-inbox time over the past few days, but not an hour's worth. Just enough minutes to be noticeable. From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 14 01:20:18 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:20:18 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113191257.01a3aec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 02:02 PM 1/13/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: > > > `Narcissism', for what it's worth, is the psychiatric label for > > basing your self-estimate on the way other people regard you (as > > Narcissus fell in love with what he took to be the face of another > > gazing back at him in a mirrored pond). > >Uh, no, Damien. The common understanding of this myth is that Narcissus >had excessive self-love, which is what narcissism is classified as by >pshrinks. I'm asserting that this is the common *mis*understanding. but I wn't insist on these for fear of appearing narcissistic. :) http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html has some simplified translations of the DSM IV category, e.g.: 1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) Translation: Grandiosity is the hallmark of narcissism. So what is grandiose? The simplest everyday way that narcissists show their exaggerated sense of self-importance is by talking about family, work, life in general as if there is nobody else in the picture. Whatever they may be doing, in their own view, they are the star, and they give the impression that they are bearing heroic responsibility for their family or department or company, that they have to take care of everything because their spouses or co-workers are undependable, uncooperative, or otherwise unfit. ... 3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) Translation: Narcissists think that everyone who is not special and superior is worthless. By definition, normal, ordinary, and average aren't special and superior, and so, to narcissists, they are worthless. 4. Requires excessive admiration Translation: Excessive in two ways: they want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume. [This latter is relevant to what I was saying. As is:] The preferred theory seems to be that narcissism is caused by very early affective deprivation, yet the clinical material tends to describe narcissists as unwilling rather than unable, thus treating narcissistic behaviors as volitional -- that is, narcissism is termed a personality disorder, but it tends to be discussed as a character disorder. [Not being loved in infancy creates, on this model, a dreadful yearning for acknowledgement by a heedless world, often leading to bouts of depression. One way to compensate is grandiose delusions of self-worth. But these are generally self-corrosive when they are not based on reality. Luckily, most of the geniuses on this list are at no risk of this sad fate.] Damien Broderick From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Jan 14 02:21:28 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:21:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history References: <20050113210945.17348.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008801c4f9df$c1d2d6e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Ned Late > I don't think that the decade of the '50s was merely a repressive nightmare. Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "repressive nightmare," but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly real for many, many people. > Besides we're second-guessing history, the '40s were even worse, what with WWII. Perhaps we should have avoided that big ugly war with a pax Germania & pax Nippon? Well, I wasn't comparing decades - and I was talking principally about life in the United States (not what was happening in Germany, Japan or - horror of horrors - Stalingrad - all undeniably sad episodes in world history), but since you brought this up (and from the American perspective) - certainly, some things got better in the 1950s (e.g., desegregation of the military, polio vaccine was discovered), but some things got worse (women didn't work outside the home as much as they had done in the 1940s). Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 14 04:06:19 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:06:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113191257.01a3aec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050113191257.01a3aec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41E7453B.60704@pobox.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > > The preferred theory seems to be that narcissism is caused by very early > affective deprivation, Clinical psychology is sheer plausible nonsense in all its bickering brand names. On those occasions when a brand name is tested experimentally, it fails, and the clinical psychologists go on practicing without pause. Is this theory "preferred" because of even the tiniest shred of experimental evidence? My advice is to assume that this sort of theorizing is complete nonsense unless someone cites experimental evidence with a journal reference; and even then, given the sad state of the field, I would not trust it. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 14 11:51:41 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:51:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cassini-Huygens Message-ID: The Huygens probe is now descending in Titan's atmosphere, and the transmitted data is successfully being received at the Earth ground stations. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 14:40:04 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 06:40:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <008801c4f9df$c1d2d6e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050114144004.22252.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: Ned Late > > > I don't think that the decade of the '50s was merely a repressive > nightmare. > > Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "repressive nightmare," > but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws > (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay > people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were > concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure > segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and > medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, > movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal > abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth > control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal > child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against > sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... > will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was > "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" > variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly > real for many, many people. Outside of the McCarthyism, everything else you speak of existed long before the 50's. In fact, it was the 50's when all of these things started getting questioned. As for McCarthyism, it is now a proven fact that all of McCarthy's accusations were accurate. The release of the Venona files in the last decade document who was and was not a Soviet spy, and documents the fact that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations specifically suppressed this evidence because it implicated their own people (Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White, among others). The only outrageous thing about that issue was the fact that Democrats were able to get away with their histrionics and treason. > > > Besides we're second-guessing history, the '40s were even worse, > what with WWII. Perhaps we should have avoided that big ugly war with > a pax Germania & pax Nippon? > > Well, I wasn't comparing decades - and I was talking principally > about life in the United States (not what was happening in Germany, > Japan or - horror of horrors - Stalingrad - all undeniably sad > episodes in world history), but since you brought this up (and from > the American perspective) - certainly, some things got better in the > 1950s (e.g., desegregation of the military, polio vaccine was > discovered), but some things got worse (women didn't work outside the > home as much as they had done in the 1940s). > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 14 15:02:50 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:02:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cassini-Huygens Message-ID: I should have been much more specific in my previous message. The transmitter signal was tracked from Earth from the Huygens probe and it tracked it for the ~2.5 hours of its descent. That's finished now. Here is the full sequence of data acquisition and return today. I don't think any data 'quicklook' data analysis is expected until late tonight (~11pm CET). The first Huygens data is expected at ESOC in Darmstadt at about 5:15pm CET. http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMQOI71Y3E_0.html 6.51 Timer triggers power-up of onboard electronics Triggered by a pre-set timer, Huygens's onboard electronics power up and the transmitter is set into low-power mode, awaiting the start of transmission. 11.13 Huygens reaches 'interface altitude' The 'interface altitude' is defined as 1270 kilometres above the surface of the moon where entry into Titan's atmosphere takes place. 11.17 Pilot parachute deploys The parachute deploys when Huygens detects that it has slowed to 400 metres per second, at about 180 kilometres above Titan's surface. The pilot parachute is the probe's smallest, only 2.6 metres in diameter. Its sole purpose is to pull off the probe's rear cover, which protected Huygens from the frictional heat of entry. 2.5 seconds after the pilot parachute is deployed, the rear cover is released and the pilot parachute is pulled away. The main parachute, which is 8.3 metres in diameter, unfurls. 11.18 Huygens begins transmitting to Cassini and front shield released At about 160 kilometres above the surface, the front shield is released. 42 seconds after the pilot parachute is deployed, inlet ports are opened up for the Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer and Aerosol Collector Pyrolyser instruments, and booms are extended to expose the Huygens Atmospheric Structure Instruments. The Descent Imager/Spectral Radiometer will capture its first panorama, and it will continue capturing images and spectral data throughout the descent. The Surface Science Package will also be switched on, measuring atmospheric properties. 11.32 Main parachute separates and drogue parachute deploys The drogue parachute is 3 metres in diameter. At this level in the atmosphere, about 125 kilometres in altitude, the large main parachute would slow Huygens down so much that the batteries would not last for the entire descent to the surface. The drogue parachute will allow it to descend at the right pace to gather the maximum amount of data. 11.49 Surface proximity sensor activated Until this point, all of Huygens's actions have been based on clock timers. At a height of 60 kilometres, it will be able to detect its own altitude using a pair of radar altimeters, which will be able to measure the exact distance to the surface. The probe will constantly monitor its spin rate and altitude and feed this information to the science instruments. All times after this are approximate. 12.57 Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer begins sampling atmosphere This is the last of Huygens's instruments to be activated fully. The descent is expected to take 137 minutes in total, plus or minus 15 minutes. Throughout its descent, the spacecraft will continue to spin at a rate of between 1 and 20 rotations per minute, allowing the camera and other instruments to see the entire panorama around the descending spacecraft. 13.30 Descent Imager/Spectral Radiometer lamp turned on Close to the surface, Huygens's camera instrument will turn on a light. The light is particularly important for the 'Spectral Radiometer' part of the instrument to determine the composition of Titan's surface accurately. 13.34 Surface touchdown This time may vary by plus or minus 15 minutes depending on how Titan's atmosphere and winds affect Huygens's parachuting descent. Huygens will hit the surface at a speed of 5-6 metres per second. Huygens could land on a hard surface of rock or ice or possibly land on an ethane sea. In either case, Huygens's Surface Science Package is designed to capture every piece of information about the surface that can be determined in the three remaining minutes that Huygens is designed to survive after landing. 15.44 Cassini stops collecting data Huygens's landing site drops below Titan's horizon as seen by Cassini and the orbiter stops collecting data. Cassini will listen for Huygens's signal as long as there is the slightest possibility that it can be detected. Once Huygens's landing site disappears below the horizon, there's no more chance of signal, and Huygens's work is finished. 16.14 First data sent to Earth Cassini first turns its high-gain antenna to point towards Earth and then sends the first packet of data. Getting data from Cassini to Earth is now routine, but for the Huygens mission, additional safeguards are put in place to make sure that none of Huygens's data are lost. Giant radio antennas around the world will listen for Cassini as the orbiter relays repeated copies of Huygens data. -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 15:25:04 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113134616.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050114152504.69064.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Just sent in this letter to the editor of TR: To the Editor, Your homily, preaching against technological transcendance is a bit flawed. You state, "When technology appropriates transcendance, it becomes science fiction," yet a few paragraphs earlier you commented on a real-world incident of people seeing DTP publishing of files to books as "a transcendant experience". Are you saying that these real world people and events are fictional simply because they came away from the experience significantly changed? I'm sorry, but you are inappropriately appropriating transcendance for your own personal, narrow, political/religious agenda. Transcendance happens where people find it, wherever they find significantly different and/or self-altering meaning in life. Finding it in real world technology seems far more non-fictional, rational, and real, than in the way many people find it, in that anthology of historical fiction known as.... The Bible. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Jan 14 15:49:16 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:49:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history References: <20050114144004.22252.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c4fa50$9ad255e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Mike Lorrey" >> Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "repressive nightmare," >> but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws >> (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay >> people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were >> concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure >> segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and >> medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, >> movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal >> abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth >> control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal >> child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against >> sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... >> will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was >> "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" >> variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly >> real for many, many people. > > Outside of the McCarthyism, everything else you speak of existed long > before the 50's. In fact, it was the 50's when all of these things > started getting questioned. I never said it didn't. I was comparing the 1950s to the way things are now - the 1950s were specifically brought up. And, no, the 1950s decade was not when these things started getting questioned - all these things were being questioned *long before*. Television was bringing America "home" to viewers like nothing else (and one can compare the effect television was having to the "threat" posed by the Internet to the USSR before Glasnost). America simply needed to clean things up at home, as the burden of claiming to be a free democratic country, yet observing de jure segregation for many of its own citizens (along with the garden variety de facto) was getting to be too much to handle. Civil rights legislation was necessary to save America's reputation (and in subsequent yearts, many other groups got on the "we-need-our-rights-too" bandwagon; with the advent of The Pill - even women could finally get uppity and start calling the shots). > As for McCarthyism, it is now a proven fact that all of McCarthy's > accusations were accurate. The release of the Venona files in the last > decade document who was and was not a Soviet spy, and documents the > fact that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations specifically > suppressed this evidence because it implicated their own people (Alger > Hiss and Harry Dexter White, among others). The only outrageous thing > about that issue was the fact that Democrats were able to get away with > their histrionics and treason. I never said they weren't accurate, did I? But you're not saying the McCarthy trials weren't a travesty, are you? The McCarthy trials were a witch hunt, pure and simple - painting even uninvolved people with a broad "red-and-atheist" brush (and, while the floodgates were open and paranoia ruled, letting in some bad legislation). Olga From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 17:26:11 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:26:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <000b01c4fa50$9ad255e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050114172611.25520.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > As for McCarthyism, it is now a proven fact that all of McCarthy's > > accusations were accurate. The release of the Venona files in the > > last > > decade document who was and was not a Soviet spy, and documents the > > fact that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations specifically > > suppressed this evidence because it implicated their own people > >(Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White, among others). The only > > outrageous thing about that issue was the fact that Democrats > > were able to get away with their histrionics and treason. > > I never said they weren't accurate, did I? But you're not saying the > McCarthy trials weren't a travesty, are you? Despite what the media would have you believe, McCarthy never held a trial. Nor did he run the House UnAmerican Activities Committee (he was a Senator, and as such, could not sit on a House committee). While HUAC focused on Hollywood left wingers, in many cases wrongly and without any probable cause other than being ratted out by others (and in other cases not wrongly). McCarthy specifically focused on investigating government officials who were Soviet spies. He was never a judge at any trial. His 'list' was based on actual FBI tallies of public officials, however the FBI and Army intelligence refused to declassify intelligence like the Venona intercepts which would have corroborated McCarthy's assertions. They did this because they were more interested in turning high level ACP officials into double agents. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 14 17:44:55 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:44:55 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] how many exabytes? In-Reply-To: <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050114114324.01a03ba8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:28 PM 1/12/2005 +0100, Serafino wrote: >... 5 exabytes: all the words ever spoken > by human beings. >... 6 exabytes: information in the genomes > of all the people in the world. Yeah, but Baez admits: Damien Broderick From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 14 18:01:00 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:01:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: Huygens: "First visitor to Titan" Some notes from the Cassini-Huygens Press briefing (televised over the ESA channel) This morning showed the first engineering success, this afternoon showed the first scientific success. Meaning that all six instruments performed well during the full 147 minute descent through Titan's atmosphere to the ground, and then while sitting on the ground, the Huygens probe operated for at least 2 hours on the Titan surface. The Cassini orbiter caught at least that science data (the batteries operate to 7 hours). Then the Cassini orbiter went out of range, as expected. The rest of the Huygens data in engineering mode is being caught by radio telescopes on Earth, where there apparently is a rush of radio astronomers/telescopes "moving westward" to catch that Huygens engineering data. Note that the expectation was to have only a few minutes of Huygens data on the ground. The instruments were insulated well, and operating at 25degC. Huygens has a redundant data science systems: two channels, one is not transmitting data for some reason (yet unknown), while the other channel has sent all of the science data: i.e. zero "lost packets". Since all instruments operated perfectly, the science data is expected to be great; "for posterity", J.P Lebreton said. Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of this mission: 25 years since conception, two generations of scientists, thousands of engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries involved. The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see them, but you should probably start here: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 18:48:17 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:48:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050114144004.22252.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050114184817.39533.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> George F. Will pointed out in 1994 that the Clintons were "condemning an entire decade", the 1980s, for being a decade of greed. And it was a decade of greed, yet so were the '70s-- which whelped the '80s. The '90s was also a decade of greed, flollowing as it did both the '70s & '80s. The '50s was the decade when Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat for a white patron and go sit in one of the back seats like a good little negress. The '50s was the decade when Chuck Berry almost single handedly invented Rock & Roll; the decade when the Beatniks challenged the status quo. > but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws > (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay > people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were > concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure > segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and > medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, > movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal > abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth > control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal > child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against > sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... > will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was > "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" > variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly > real for many, many people. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jan 14 18:52:02 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of > this mission: > 25 years since conception, two generations of > scientists, thousands of > engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries > involved. Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks out for me, much more than the science data. It takes *that much* to get a lander onto Titan? That's way more than we should have to use. We need to make space exploration far more efficient. From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jan 14 19:41:08 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:41:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how many exabytes? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050114114324.01a03ba8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20050114114324.01a03ba8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050114194108.GJ9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 11:44:55AM -0600, damien wrote: > At 08:28 PM 1/12/2005 +0100, Serafino wrote: > > >... 5 exabytes: all the words ever spoken > > by human beings. > >... 6 exabytes: information in the genomes > > of all the people in the world. Not to mention http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=human+ejaculation+bandwidth&btnG=Search ... > Yeah, but Baez admits: > > information in the human genome, and the genomes of all the people in the > world. I didn't try to take into account the immense overlap in genetic > information between different people, nor the repetitive stretches in human > DNA. Here's how I did the calculation. Each of us has chromosomes with > about 5 billion base pairs. Each base pair holds 2 bits of information: A, > T, C, or G. That's 10 billion bits, or 1.25 gigabytes. Times the roughly > 6.5 billion people in the world now, we get about 8 x 10^18 bytes, or 8 > exabytes. They only built 2 exabytes of hard disks in 2002. But, if we > wanted to store the complete genetic identity of everyone on hard drives, > we could easily do it, using data compression, because a lot of genes are > the same from person to person. > Indeedly. A much more interesting question is how much homology is there on a population of human minds, and how to arrive at an efficient encoding starting with raw digitized neuroanatomy. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hibbert at mydruthers.com Fri Jan 14 19:58:59 2005 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:58:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41E82483.7040202@mydruthers.com> > The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at > another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC > in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see > them, but you should probably start here: The Exploratorium is planning several webcasts on Huygens. http://www.exploratorium.edu/saturn/cassini.html http://www.exploratorium.edu/webcasts/ Friday, January 14, 2005 10:00 a.m. PST Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:00 p.m. PST What Do the Pictures Mean? Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:00 p.m. PST How Far Have We Gone? They will also be likely to update their website as interesting results become available. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 20:45:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050114204554.23209.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Looks like the mission went quite well, with only the minor hiccup of one of the comm channels being bad. I hope the ESA gets their money's worth of science data. Speaking of money, I was browsing around looking for costs of the Cassini-Hugens mission and found this cost info: Cost of mission: Total: $3.26 billion. US Cost (Cassini): $2.6 billion, ESA: $500 million, Italian Space Agency: $160 million Cassini is a 4 year mission orbiting Saturn (2.1 million minutes) for an orbiter cost of $1236.68 per minute (not counting interest on funds invested 10 or more years ago). That is pretty pricey science, but on a par with, for instance, per minute equivalent of the $200,000 price being charged by Virgin Galactic for a suborbital tourist trip. Not too bad, a lot better and more exotic science than can be had during a gee-whiz ride to the edge of space. The Huygens probe is not quite so cost effective. At $660 million for the combined european effort (I don't know if this accounts for the cost of the hitchhike ride from Earth to Saturn aboard Cassini), for about 4 hours and 26 minutes of science gathering, this results in a cost of $2.48 million per minute of science. Lets hope the science gotten from this is worth it. It should be noted that the Cassini-Huygens mission was the last of the big budget space probe missions. Comparing to other government space probe missions: Mars Rovers (Spirit & Opportunity): Cost: $800 million Science time (to date): 1 million+ Cost per minute of science: $777* * this might be slightly higher due to the troubleshooting of Spirit's flash memory problems. The Mars Rovers have to date set the standard for science value, having conclusively proven the prior existence of significant quantities of water involved in Mars geological history. They are currently on a reduced schedule due to winter sunlight, but are continuing to operate, many months after their designed 90-day mission schedules, and will continue to drive that per minute cost down significantly. Can anyone involved in private science research provide some information as to what cost per minute of science a private research organization would find acceptable? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Jan 14 20:58:02 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:58:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello friends, The Arizona folks are posting raw data over here: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/data.htm no sign of a meet&greet - yet. The NASAtv relay through the web has been holding up all day, and the AMC-6 signal is on transponder 9 for any other BUD enthusiasts out there. A happy day for the species. Cheers, Bret Kulakovich On Jan 14, 2005, at 1:01 PM, Amara Graps wrote: > Huygens: "First visitor to Titan" > > Some notes from the Cassini-Huygens Press briefing (televised over > the ESA channel) > > This morning showed the first engineering success, this afternoon > showed the first scientific success. Meaning that all six instruments > performed well during the full 147 minute descent through Titan's > atmosphere to the ground, and then while sitting on the ground, the > Huygens probe operated for at least 2 hours on the Titan surface. The > Cassini orbiter caught at least that science data (the batteries > operate to 7 hours). Then the Cassini orbiter went out of range, as > expected. The rest of the Huygens data in engineering mode is being > caught by radio telescopes on Earth, where there apparently is a rush > of radio astronomers/telescopes "moving westward" to catch that > Huygens engineering data. Note that the expectation was to have only > a few minutes of Huygens data on the ground. The instruments were > insulated well, and operating at 25degC. > > Huygens has a redundant data science systems: two channels, one is not > transmitting data for some reason (yet unknown), while the other > channel has sent all of the science data: i.e. zero "lost packets". > Since all instruments operated perfectly, the science data is expected > to be great; "for posterity", J.P Lebreton said. > > Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of this mission: > 25 years since conception, two generations of scientists, thousands of > engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries involved. > > The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at > another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC > in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see > them, but you should probably start here: > > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ > > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Jan 14 21:01:13 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:01:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6CB5B8EE-666F-11D9-AAED-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Yes - I like to refer to it as a "typing pool" - when companies employed a room full of 50 secretaries to type out carbon copies. I wonder if people could tell, then, that the whole setup was about to go passenger pigeon? Where is our next Xerox machine? Our next DTP? Bret Kulakovich is very happy about Titan. On Jan 14, 2005, at 1:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks out > for me, much more than the science data. It takes > *that much* to get a lander onto Titan? That's way > more than we should have to use. We need to make > space exploration far more efficient. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From hal at finney.org Fri Jan 14 21:56:07 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050114215607.B88F357E2B@finney.org> There are some great images up at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ . Oddly, the caption on the second one reads, "This is one of the first raw images returned by the ESA Huygens probe during its successful descent. It was taken from an altitude of 16.2 kilometres with a resolution of approximately 40 metres per pixel. It apparently shows short, stubby drainage channels leading to a shoreline." http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMCXM71Y3E_0.html I'd love it for Titan to have oceans, but I can't help noticing that the "liquid" along this "shoreline" appears to have craters in it. That's especially visible in the third picture, which is from a lower altitude: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMIPO71Y3E_0.html The first picture is taken from the ground, and unfortunately shows a rocky plain that looks pretty much like Mars and Venus, not to mention the deserts of Earth: a plain with rocks on it. http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMBQO71Y3E_0.html Compare with these Venus pictures: http://www.mentallandscape.com/V_DigitalImages.htm The raw images at http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/data.htm are harder to see because they haven't been processed, but it looks like there are a few more which will look good once they've been fixed up. Hal From wincat at swbell.net Fri Jan 14 21:44:19 2005 From: wincat at swbell.net (Win Cat) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:44:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c4fa82$343d46a0$8bfc9745@homebase> Zachary might like to see these extremely exciting pictures! -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Bret Kulakovich Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:58 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Hello friends, The Arizona folks are posting raw data over here: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/data.htm no sign of a meet&greet - yet. The NASAtv relay through the web has been holding up all day, and the AMC-6 signal is on transponder 9 for any other BUD enthusiasts out there. A happy day for the species. Cheers, Bret Kulakovich On Jan 14, 2005, at 1:01 PM, Amara Graps wrote: > Huygens: "First visitor to Titan" > > Some notes from the Cassini-Huygens Press briefing (televised over > the ESA channel) > > This morning showed the first engineering success, this afternoon > showed the first scientific success. Meaning that all six instruments > performed well during the full 147 minute descent through Titan's > atmosphere to the ground, and then while sitting on the ground, the > Huygens probe operated for at least 2 hours on the Titan surface. The > Cassini orbiter caught at least that science data (the batteries > operate to 7 hours). Then the Cassini orbiter went out of range, as > expected. The rest of the Huygens data in engineering mode is being > caught by radio telescopes on Earth, where there apparently is a rush > of radio astronomers/telescopes "moving westward" to catch that > Huygens engineering data. Note that the expectation was to have only > a few minutes of Huygens data on the ground. The instruments were > insulated well, and operating at 25degC. > > Huygens has a redundant data science systems: two channels, one is not > transmitting data for some reason (yet unknown), while the other > channel has sent all of the science data: i.e. zero "lost packets". > Since all instruments operated perfectly, the science data is expected > to be great; "for posterity", J.P Lebreton said. > > Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of this mission: > 25 years since conception, two generations of scientists, thousands of > engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries involved. > > The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at > another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC > in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see > them, but you should probably start here: > > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ > > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jan 14 22:47:29 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:47:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050114204554.23209.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050114204554.23209.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 12:45:54PM -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Speaking of money, I was browsing around looking for costs of the > Cassini-Hugens mission and found this cost info: > > Cost of mission: Total: $3.26 billion. US Cost (Cassini): $2.6 billion, > ESA: $500 million, Italian Space Agency: $160 million Negligible, if compared to what people spend on military programs, or spectator sports. > Cassini is a 4 year mission orbiting Saturn (2.1 million minutes) for > an orbiter cost of $1236.68 per minute (not counting interest on funds > invested 10 or more years ago). That is pretty pricey science, but on a > par with, for instance, per minute equivalent of the $200,000 price > being charged by Virgin Galactic for a suborbital tourist trip. Not too > bad, a lot better and more exotic science than can be had during a > gee-whiz ride to the edge of space. There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. It's all been done in 1960s with Laika et al. SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. > The Huygens probe is not quite so cost effective. At $660 million for > the combined european effort (I don't know if this accounts for the > cost of the hitchhike ride from Earth to Saturn aboard Cassini), for > about 4 hours and 26 minutes of science gathering, this results in a > cost of $2.48 million per minute of science. Lets hope the science > gotten from this is worth it. > > It should be noted that the Cassini-Huygens mission was the last of the > big budget space probe missions. > > Comparing to other government space probe missions: > > Mars Rovers (Spirit & Opportunity): > Cost: $800 million > Science time (to date): 1 million+ > Cost per minute of science: $777* > * this might be slightly higher due to the troubleshooting of Spirit's > flash memory problems. > > The Mars Rovers have to date set the standard for science value, having If you fly farther, your equipment has been designed at an earlier time. Your energy budget is lower, and so is the package size. Methane ice and low light conditions do not sound like easy environment for rovers, nor bright technicolor pictures. Also, the data rate is lower, becase your send power is limited, and the distance is vastly larger (and we still don't have an Interplanet in place). Still, it'd be nice if the instrument package was driven by radiosotope battery. It didn't drown, that was really unexpected. We might not get as lucky the next time (assuming, there's going to be a next time, which isn't quite obvious right now). > conclusively proven the prior existence of significant quantities of > water involved in Mars geological history. They are currently on a > reduced schedule due to winter sunlight, but are continuing to operate, > many months after their designed 90-day mission schedules, and will > continue to drive that per minute cost down significantly. Completely different design space. > Can anyone involved in private science research provide some > information as to what cost per minute of science a private research > organization would find acceptable? There's no such thing as a private space organization doing research (with the possible exception of the forthcoming solar sail probe, which is not exactly trailblazing science). This might change at some point, but right now this is just how things are. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Fri Jan 14 23:05:49 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 00:05:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050114225943.M17405@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> The last ESA press conference (at ESOC, Darmstadt) for the day ended a short time ago. There, Dr. Tomasko of the imager team gave a description of the images. One looks to be cut by liquid "drainage channels" flowing from the highlands to lower levels (lower right to upper left), with shoreline. The image that looks like clouds also has shoreline with 'islands', he said. The rocky image looks like Mars (some thought it was a joke..), but I don't think you need wonder about lack of liquid. The Huygen scientists at the press conference (and those with whom I just spent time with at ESRIN in Italy) seem confident that liquid (was/is..?that's the question) on the surface. These are just 3 images (there's many more), and remember that Huygens carried 5 other instruments. Plus the Doppler data will give great rotation rates and other science for Titan (this is from the transmitter that continues to send signals captured now by Earth's radio telescopes. There is another press conference tomorrow at 11am CET. I won't try to watch that one, but ESA is pretty fast to get words/images on the web. One person from the communications department told me that 2million visitors visited the ESA web site today. Alot of interest in Titan! That's good news too. Amara From alexboko at umich.edu Fri Jan 14 23:56:36 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:56:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism Message-ID: <41E85C34.4070309@umich.edu> 1) Good news. A certain Very Extropian Person generously offered to host the project. Now we need a catchy name for it. Here are some candidates: Civilization Insurance, CivInsure, CivIns MicroCiv PlanB Extrovival Leibowitz Project Project for a New Extropian Millenium (PNEM) TechRenaissance Renatech Technology Insurance, TechInsure Any others? 2) Even better news. As I looked into this further, I found that contrary to what some people on this list have said, high-tech survivalism may in fact be possible. I think it can scale down to a very small group of people with minimal equipment/materials. I don't want to spam the list with pages of details, there will soon be a Wiki and BBS dedicated to the subject. Let me just say for now that there were two factors I've been overlooking-- a) Even in the worst of circumstances, hardware would not be the limiting factor. Most of the industrial toolchain would still be lying around dormant. In every scenario I can think of, the limiting factors are electricity, fuel, and water. b) If you have electricity, obtaining water and synthesizing fuel becomes much easier. So, the real choke point is electric power. If you can make your own solar panels or turbines from scratch or almost from scratch, you can bootstrap the rest of the toolchain. I found several candidate designs, and better ones probably remain to be found. In summary, help is now needed in thinking up a catchy name for the Civilization Insurance site, and coming soon will be the official announcement of the new site. From sjvans at ameritech.net Sat Jan 15 00:06:11 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:06:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. > It's all been done in > 1960s with Laika et al. Really? Then why did Nasa alone launch 87 sounding rockets in the last 4 years? http://www.wff.nasa.gov/~code810/SRBlueBook.htm ESA seems to have an active suborbital program as well. http://spaceflight.esa.int/users/file.cfm?filename=facsrockets > SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. It wasn't? Guess they fooled me. Sure looked like it. Seemed that it fooled some other people, too, who wanted to book it for science flights. http://www.spacetoday.net/weblog/entry.php?id=260 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3722596.stml Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly figure of merit for science. From sjvans at ameritech.net Sat Jan 15 00:23:28 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:23:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050114172611.25520.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115002328.69106.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > McCarthy specifically focused on investigating > government officials who > were Soviet spies. He was never a judge at any > trial. His 'list' was > based on actual FBI tallies of public officials, > however the FBI and > Army intelligence refused to declassify intelligence > like the Venona > intercepts which would have corroborated McCarthy's > assertions. They > did this because they were more interested in > turning high level ACP > officials into double agents. But McCarthy never saw any such list, nor did anyone with knowledge tell him about it. He made it all up, and coincidentally turned out years later to be somewhat correct. Of course, correct in a trivial way, since no one with any sense doubted that there were spies in the US government. McCarthy could not have hurt the cause of anti-communism more if he tried. I have sometimes wondered if *he* was the mole in the government, but people have been looking through the old Soviet archives long enough now that it would have turned up if he was. From neptune at superlink.net Sat Jan 15 00:26:50 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:26:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan References: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c4fa98$e8894620$8e893cd1@pavilion> On Friday, January 14, 2005 1:52 PM Adrian Tymes wingcat at pacbell.net wrote: >> Some teary eyes in the room recounting >> the years of this mission: 25 years since >> conception, two generations of scientists, >> thousands of engineers, hundreds of >> scientists, 19 countries involved. > > Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks > out for me, much more than the science > data. It takes *that much* to get a lander > onto Titan? That's way more than we > should have to use. We need to make > space exploration far more efficient. Yes, and we already know part of the way to do this: privatize as much of it as possible. The other part is to punish many of those involved in creating the efficiencies in the first place. This second part is important to not let the guilty get away with it. Cheers! Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 01:12:48 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:12:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115011248.45508.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. > > It's all been done in 1960s with Laika et al. > > Really? Then why did Nasa alone launch 87 sounding > rockets in the last 4 years? > > http://www.wff.nasa.gov/~code810/SRBlueBook.htm > > ESA seems to have an active suborbital program as > well. > > http://spaceflight.esa.int/users/file.cfm?filename=facsrockets > > > SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. > > It wasn't? Guess they fooled me. Sure looked like > it. Me too: they went into space, in a ballistic trajectory, they didn't attain orbit, ergo: sub-orbital. > > Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly > figure of merit for science. Is this because scientists doing pure research distain the idea of 'profit' and 'breaking even', and never have to entertain such silly concepts in grant applications? Applied science has to demonstrate cost effectiveness by some metric: whether it is number of patentable discoveries, number of papers published, number of Nobel prizes earned, number of megabytes of data, number of minutes of 'stick time', per dollar spent, some ratio of cost effectiveness must be demonstrated, else what is the point of "Better, Faster, *Cheaper*" unless you know exactly what 'cheaper' actually *means*. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sjvans at ameritech.net Sat Jan 15 02:21:36 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:21:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115011248.45508.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115022136.35300.qmail@web81208.mail.yahoo.com> > Is this because scientists doing pure research > distain the idea of > 'profit' and 'breaking even', and never have to > entertain such silly > concepts in grant applications? No. > Applied science has to demonstrate cost > effectiveness by some metric: > whether it is number of patentable discoveries, > number of papers > published, As do "pure" scientists. Try getting your NIH grant renewed without publishing. Or your first one without a publishing record. It is an imperfect measure, but far, far better than "minutes of science", which comes perilously close to the labor theory of value. And you would be amazed at how fast a "pure" scientist becomes an "applied" one when results start suggesting a profitable product. From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Sat Jan 15 03:10:50 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:10:50 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A reflection on the simulation argument Message-ID: <200501150110.50362.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> This is a paper I did sometime ago about thoughts on the simulation argument, It looked prettier in the open office than in mail format, but thats not the big point about it I'm not a phylosopher, I'm not even in university, so there might be some phylosophical or logical lacks in this reflection, Still, I'd like to hear from some of you what do you think about it. Diego (Log At) Why I think we are probably not living in a computer simulation Diego Caleiro's reflection on Nick Bostrom's ?Are you living in a computer simulation?? http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html In Nick Bostrom's argument upon the possibility of all of us to be living in a computer simulation, he argues that one of the following propositions is true(1) the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a ?posthuman? stage; (2) any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof); (3) we are almost certainly living in a computer simulation. It follows that the belief that there is a significant chance that we will one day become posthumans who run ancestor-simulations is false, unless we are currently living in a simulation. In this paper I'll argue that the second proposition is more probably true than the third one. For any fundamental society ( a society that lives in the real world) achieving a posthuman era, it would require some premises that I'll assume: The first of them is that in the real universe there are physical laws such that allow the existence of time, movement and therefore, propension to keep existing and propension to disapear. When I say propension to keep existing I mean a kind of survival of the fittest aplied to the physical rearrangements of the space discontinuity of that universe. As in our universe we have something that we call ?matter? that stills existing, and some rearrangements of it more propense to exist than others, for example, a star is more propense to exist than a very small amount of matter togheter, lets say, ten atoms in vacuum. This happens because of our gravity force, which makes it more probable that matter arranges itself in bigger than in small amounts. The existence of time, movement and propension to keep existing is necesssary since we are assuming some society ?becomes? posthuman, and it would also be required if we think that it is very improbable that such a thing as time has been invented, and, if time exists in our level, it would much probably exist in the fundamental level. The second of them is that, in a survival of the fittest universe, when a conscient being become alive, it has more propension to survive if it is egoistic, and protects its creation (as darwin said), but, when it comes to happen to insurge a very powerfull conscient organism, it is likely to be altruistic in order to survive. Let us use in example a room in old USSR were are the president, a cockroach and the Red phone, during the missile crisis in Cuba. The cockroach main worry must be egoistic, since she has to think how to get out of the president view in order not to be crushed, and therefore have a lot of little cockroaches a few days later. The Red phone rings, the president answers and he is told that, if he doesn't stop the missiles were they are, there will be a nuclear war, if he is to have egoistic thoughts, he will keep the missile going, and the war would eliminate most, if not all, humans in earth, the president concerns must be altruistic, otherwise, his propension to keep existing becomes very low. Of course I'm dealing a psicological concept of egoistic action, since you could argue that rationally he would be thinking in himself, not altruistically. Still, his action is something that commonly people would call altruism. In our actual world, we have a lot of power in the hand of some people, technology gave us power enough to end it all but the darwinian evolution has given only ( or mostly) the cockroach kind of advance in our thinking, we achieved power without achieving biological patterns compatible with that power. Our evolution, biologically, was not prepared ofr intelligence, since intelligence led us to have a lot of power that is not necessary to survive, but it is definetely necessary to kill everyone, or most of us. In this sense, we must thank ethics and morals that allow people to take some non-cockroach decisions, even when their brains did a cockroach destructive thinking. If we accord that any society that created posthuman civilization evolved in the principles of egoistic darwinism we will have thus that the posthumans it created are altruistic, this comes from a deduction as follows: if A is egoistic, and wants to create B, therefore B is suposed to do something good for A, otherwise A would not have created it, or would have destroyed it. At last, it could happen that B gets stronger than A even being a mistaken try, takes over the world or something like that, but, if this happens, it's rather improbable that B starts creating simulations of worlds like our. It follows that if there is a fundamental society such that it develops a posthumans with simulations universe, it is much more probable that this simulations are created by altruist senscient beings, rather than egoistic ones. What I think that are an altruistic creation implications When we think about what to do with a simulation, we think about it in the means of purpose, and our purposes are guided by egoistic ethics, therefore, we think about simulations based on their efficience in accomplishing tasks for us. That is something that a real altruist wouldn't do. A senscient altruistic being would think of a simulation as we think of having children, it is a creation of ours, and we are supposed to give it a happy life as much as we can. An altruistic senscient being would create a simulation in order to learn about his history, of course, but, mostly of all, he would create a simulation to allow a bigger number, and quality of senscient beings happiness, so, mostly, he would create worlds in which people are very happy and free, and as far as I'm concerned, our world is much probably not the happiest and most free world there can be, and, if it is, we should deeply rethink our efforts upon anything at all. So, if the senscient altruist being is going to conceive a considerable number of simulations, most of them would not be historical, and, those which are, would mostly have few scient beings, since the simulation could run equally for senscient or not beings, and therefore its historical value would be the same in both cases. I'm declined to beleive that in a simulation where a considerable part of the population suffers would not be created unless the suffering part of the population were only zombie-kinded non senscient beings. This leads us to two possibilities, one of them with another three possibilities inside: The first possibility is that you are a very happy person, therefore you could (1)be living in a zombie world, like Truman Burbank, and I'm only an unconscious part of a machine, (2) in a part zombie, part senscient world, assuming that there are other senscient happy beings in your world, or (3) in the real world, and holy damn, you are lucky. The other possibility is that you don't consider yourself so happy and satisfied, in this case, you are very probably in the real world. Why I think we are in the real world As Nick Bostrom said, the possibility of us being in a personal world (as he says, a me-simulation) is much smaller than the possibility of us being in a complete world, but, as I argued before, it is rather improbable that this world is the best conceived by our other level gods, that created us. Some philosophers have once defended god existence and goodness based on the idea that we coudn't be able to feel it, but this is the best world there may be. Most of the people don't think so, and I don't think our posthuman gods would create an enviroment like earth, with so many problems for most of us and solutions for few. The possibility of us being the creation of a egoistic posthuman, whose biggest passion is to observe and judge us, is possible, still, it is improbable that an egoistic superintelligence would be concerned with that. Conclusion: If we are to assume that a darwin based society developed post?human? superintelligence, then this superintelligence is probably altruistic, and therefore, if we are all senscient beings, we would live in a world with less sadness, hunger etc.. than the world we beleive we live in. That is why I think this is more probably the real world, the fundamental level than a secondary one. If you have any comments, suggestions, reflections, critics, e-mail me, I'll be glad to hear you diegocaleiro at terra.com.br From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 03:20:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:20:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115022136.35300.qmail@web81208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115032019.31912.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > As do "pure" scientists. Try getting your NIH grant > renewed without publishing. Or your first one without > a publishing record. It is an imperfect measure, but > far, far better than "minutes of science", which comes > perilously close to the labor theory of value. > > And you would be amazed at how fast a "pure" scientist > becomes an "applied" one when results start suggesting > a profitable product. Minutes of science is meant to suggest some degree of quantity of data, assuming that mission scientists schedule acquisition of data to maximize bytes per dollar. Of course, this ignores metrics of quality of data, however it can be treated as a dollar average per minute. Some minutes of science may be of immensely greater value in the final analysis than others. For example, with Cassini, large amounts of time spent in orbit, nowhere near any rings or moons, may be worth little beyond magnetospheric data and meteorological observation of the Saturnian atmosphere. It is obvious that every minute Huygens spent in descent and on the surface was of immense value simply due to the scarcity of time available, and the total lack of any competetive missions to that location in the forseable future. Ergo, high demand, low supply (and thus having nothing to do with any labor theory of value). In that respect, the data gathered may be worth almost two and a half million bucks a minute. How many megabytes of data the probe can collect per minute (and store for transmission) would determine a better metric of how many dollars per byte of data. The question, though, is, is the average minute of science time on Titan worth two thousand times more than the average minute spent in Saturn orbit? Or four thousand times more than the average minute spent on Mars by a Rover? I would posit that an argument can be made that data about Mars is of greater importance to humanity at this point in time than data about Titan, because Mars is closer and has far greater potential for terraforming. From this point of view, the Mars Rovers are a far more profitable investment than the Huygens probe. However, if it can be shown that data from Titan gives scientists a better idea of how greenhouse effects work, how planetary chemistry create them, etc, then that data may be worth something to the Mars effort. This all being said, I am also hoping to get some idea of whether government spends too much money to buy too little data or not, whether private industry can do it better, and if so what price private industry is willing to pay to acquire such data. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Sat Jan 15 06:11:33 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:11:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115061133.2E06057E2B@finney.org> I noticed something interesting in comparing the ESA's published image at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMBQO71Y3E_0.html which shows the view from the ground, with the corresponding raw image. The raw images are no longer available at the arizona.edu web site, maybe the ESA got mad at them, but space.com has some at: http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/huygens_images_050114.html . The one in the top left at the bottom of the page looks to me like essentially the same as the ESA one, but it is slightly less cropped. The larger view makes it appear that there is a humongous mountain in the background! It's not so noticeable in the ESA version, but in the raw image you can not only see a bit of the mountain's edge in the top right corner, you can faintly see what appear to be rock formations on the mountain. Of course I don't know that it's really big, it could be a hill seen through a telephoto lens. It will be great to see the additional images as the ESA releases them. Hal From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 08:13:40 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:13:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] US Intelligence Report Sees Sharp Rise in Asian Influence Message-ID: <470a3c520501150013392efc6@mail.gmail.com> A new forecast compiled by U.S. intelligence experts foresees China and India spearheading an expansion of Asian political and economic influence throughout the world. It also sees many Arab countries at a crossroads as globalization spreads. The report, labeled "Mapping the Global Future," lays out a world 15 years from now in which the United States remains the dominant power, but faces increased competition from growing economic power in Asia and challenges from political Islam. The long-range forecast was issued by the National Intelligence Council, or N.I.C., a kind of research organization for the head of the Central Intelligence Agency. The Council regularly compiles reports reflecting the collective views of U.S. intelligence agencies. Officials say the views of more than one thousand political, economic, and social experts around the world were solicited for the new report. http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-01-14-voa68.cfm From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 08:18:52 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:18:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] UK Science Center to Probe Mysteries of the Mind Message-ID: <470a3c5205011500188d5be1c@mail.gmail.com> Can there be a predisposition for fundamentalism? Do the faithful cope more easily with pain? Are they faster to recover from illness? Such are the questions scientists and theologians will attempt to answer at a new study center which starts experiments into human consciousness in the next few months. The Oxford Center for Science of the Mind (OXSCOM) could be the first of its kind in the world, its founders believe. OXSCOM has received a $2 million grant for a two-year pilot run from the American-based philanthropic John Templeton Foundation to carry out a range of experiments, some of which will use pain techniques to see if the faithful cope better with pain than non-believers. "What we'll be doing is exploring consciousness and particularly how consciousness is shaped and substantiated in the brain, how a belief can trigger or change your consciousness, and how one can affect the other". http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=7330559 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 08:29:29 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:29:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115082700.M40946@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Hal Finney: >The raw images are no longer available at the arizona.edu >web site, maybe the ESA got mad at them, ???? Policies like this happen at a Cassini-Huygens project level. I am not sure, but if what I saw last year with how the teams released their data from the Cassini orbiter, I don't think that a global policy at the project level for Cassini-Huygens has been set at this point. The individual instrument teams with their respective research institutes have the say for their release of their data. Each have a particular level of processed data 'product' that they must deliver to ESA or NASA or ASI within a particular time after mission end. >The larger view makes it appear that there is a humongous mountain >in the background! Needs a geometric correction? Amara From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 14:17:44 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:17:44 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Imagining the Internet Predictions Database Message-ID: <20050115141551.M48634@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> http://www.elon.edu/predictions/ "The Imagining the Internet Predictions Database examines the potential future of the Internet while simultaneously providing a peek back into its history. We invite you to navigate through three useful resource areas that: illuminate the views of stakeholders - The Experts Survey; give an historic overview - The 1990 to 1995 Predictions; and allow your participation - Share Your Vision Today." From hal at finney.org Sat Jan 15 15:05:23 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115150523.DFE0857E2C@finney.org> The images this morning are even more spectacular, at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ and http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMC8Q71Y3E_0.html . There's a panoramic view taken as the craft spun during descent, and the first color pictures from the surface. It looks to me like we landed in the so-called "ocean", the flat dark area, with the light colored "land" actually being rugged, mountainous terrain. And even though they've labelled the "horizon" in that first landing picture, I don't think it's really the horizon, but rather the "coastline" with the mountain I observed being the higher ground which from above looks like land. Hal From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 18:16:17 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:16:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115181231.M72217@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Mike Lorrey >For example, with Cassini, large amounts of time spent in orbit, >nowhere near any rings or moons, may be worth little beyond >>magnetospheric data and meteorological observation of the >Saturnian atmosphere. ??!! Cassini was far from 'asleep' during its 7 years (15Oct1997 - 1Jul2004) in interplanetary space. Many of the instruments were on, such as the particles and fields instruments (measuring magnetic field, plasma, dust, etc.) Cassini Interplanetary Space Trajectory: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=31240 Plus, each flyby produced volumes of data, especially the last one. Two Venus flybys One Earth flyby Jupiter Flyby "Jupiter Millennium Mission" some results here: http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/2000/cassj upresults.html http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/jupiterflyby/ http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/pictures/jupiter/ The Cassini Jupiter flyby produced more data than the entire Galileo mission in orbit around Jupiter (http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov/ ) Amara From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 18:48:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:48:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115150523.DFE0857E2C@finney.org> Message-ID: <20050115184807.95971.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > The images this morning are even more spectacular, at > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ and > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMC8Q71Y3E_0.html . > There's a panoramic view taken as the craft spun during descent, > and the first color pictures from the surface. > > It looks to me like we landed in the so-called "ocean", the flat dark > area, with the light colored "land" actually being rugged, > mountainous terrain. And even though they've labelled the "horizon" > in that first landing picture, I don't think it's really the horizon, > but rather the "coastline" with the mountain I observed being the > higher ground which from above looks like land. Yeah, this looks nothing like the snowcone with organic syrup scenario that had been theorized previously. Maybe Huygens just lucked out and landed in a bad location. So the bigger mystery now is how a moon with such desert climate maintain such a dense atmosphere? Perhaps vulcanism? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 19:07:55 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:07:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115190309.M24199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> >So the bigger mystery now is how a moon with >such desert climate maintain such a dense atmosphere? >Perhaps vulcanism? Planetary Geology : Frozen volcanism on Titan http://www.geotimes.org/current/NN_Cassini.html Cassini sees evidence of Titan volcanism http://www.spacetoday.net/Summary/2641 Radar Surprises from Titan http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cassini-04zzzzh.html Amara From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 19:30:25 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:30:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] US Intelligence Report Sees Sharp Rise in Asian Influence In-Reply-To: <470a3c520501150013392efc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520501150013392efc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0501151130163a6e8f@mail.gmail.com> Saturday, 15 January 2005 Hello all: On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:13:40 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: [snip] > The report, labeled "Mapping the Global Future," lays out a world 15 http://www.foia.cia.gov/2020/2020.pdf > years from now in which the United States remains the dominant power, > but faces increased competition from growing economic power in Asia > and challenges from political Islam. See also the "Global Trends 2010" and "Global Trends 2015" reports to compare, contrast, and track the changes of this particular consensus future model. http://www.cia.gov/nic/NIC_2020_project.html > The long-range forecast was issued by the National Intelligence > Council, or N.I.C., a kind of research organization for the head of > the Central Intelligence Agency. The Council regularly compiles http://www.cia.gov/nic/NIC_home.html > reports reflecting the collective views of U.S. intelligence agencies. > Officials say the views of more than one thousand political, economic, > and social experts around the world were solicited for the new report. >From the NIC 2020 Project page: "Significantly, the NIC 2020 Project employed information technology and analytic tools unavailable in earlier NIC efforts. We created an interactive Web site which contained several tools including a "hands-on" computer simulation that allows novice and expert alike to develop their own scenarios. This "International Futures" model is now available to the public to explore." http://ifsmodel.org Service intermittent as of Sat 15 Jan 05, and apparently not yet cached by Google. All links also available through the social/collaborative bookmark service del.icio.us. See the link in my .sig, or pick up a RSS feed here: http://del.icio.us/rss/jay.dugger/NIC -- Jay Dugger BLOG--http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME--http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS--http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From hal at finney.org Sat Jan 15 21:57:39 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:57:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115215739.3790F57E2D@finney.org> I was on the road this morning when I saw the new pictures, but now I've gotten home and I see that the Los Angeles Times has a similar interpretation to what I thought I saw (link may require subscription): http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-titan15jan15,0,3987702.story?coll=la-home-world > Torrence Johnson, a member of the mission's camera team, said from the > Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena that planetary surfaces "look > pretty much the same everywhere." That doesn't mean strange things > are not going on outside the camera's eye. He said the lack of craters > indicated the surface is young. Drainage channels show that something, > perhaps hydrocarbon rivers, flowed across the surface at some point. > > It was unclear exactly where the probe landed. Pictures taken during > a Cassini fly-by several months ago showed bright and dark areas, but > scientists could not estimate the elevations of those areas. Johnson > said the new pictures seemed to prove that the bright, icy areas are > at a higher elevation than the darkened surface, where he thought the > probe had landed. > > Some scientists had speculated that the dark areas were hydrocarbon seas, > but the evidence from the probe seemed to show it to be a hard surface. > > "This proves pretty conclusively there are not liquid oceans," said Bob > Mitchell, Cassini program manager at JPL. "That's not to say there's > not lakes or ponds." However the New York Times is still clinging to the wet-ocean theory http://nytimes.com/2005/01/16/science/16saturn.html : > If this evidence of possible liquids on Titan's landscape is confirmed > it would support widely held pre-mission conjecture that the planet-sized > moon has lakes and perhaps seas of liquid methane or ethane. It could thus > prove to be the mission's most consequential discovery: that not only is > Titan the only moon in the solar system with a substantial atmosphere, > but it also appears to have flowing surface liquids, putting it in the > company of only Earth and possibly Jupiter's moon Io, with its lava flows. Slashdot also points to some amateur analysis, mosaics, animations and stereo images at http://anthony.liekens.net/index.php/Main/Huygens . Hal From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 22:48:48 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:48:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115181231.M72217@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <20050115224848.30008.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > > Mike Lorrey > >For example, with Cassini, large amounts of time spent in orbit, > >nowhere near any rings or moons, may be worth little beyond > >>magnetospheric data and meteorological observation of the > >Saturnian atmosphere. > > ??!! > Cassini was far from 'asleep' during its 7 years (15Oct1997 - > 1Jul2004) in interplanetary space. Many of the instruments were on, > such as the particles and fields instruments (measuring magnetic > field, plasma, dust, etc.) Okay, then my previous calculation makes Cassini's average cost per data minute on a par with the Mars Rovers. If so, such a valuation demolishes the idea of "Better, Faster, Cheaper" that Sean O'Keefe promoted for many years: The Mars Rovers are no cheaper, in data dollars, than Cassini, which is arguably the most 'expensive' space probe in history. One does need to ask what the value of a data minute of particle and field data is worth versus photography of planets and moons, radar mapping, etc. As for Huygens, maybe it is because of the age of the probes, but after seeing the pictures from the Mars Rovers, the miniscule low resolution pictures sent back by Huygens are a little disappointing. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 15 23:29:47 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:29:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] [>Htech] [FoRK] "The global baby bust" (fwd from deafbox@hotmail.com) (fwd from eugen@leitl.org) Message-ID: <20050115232947.GZ9221@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Eugen Leitl ----- From: Eugen Leitl Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:19:20 +0100 To: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com Subject: [>Htech] [FoRK] "The global baby bust" (fwd from deafbox at hotmail.com) User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Reply-To: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com ----- Forwarded message from Russell Turpin ----- From: "Russell Turpin" Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:14:47 +0000 To: fork at xent.com Subject: [FoRK] "The global baby bust" Interesting article on current demographic trends: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040501faessay83307-p0/phillip-longman/the-global-baby-bust.html _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork ----- End forwarded message ----- The Global Baby Bust By Phillip Longman >From Foreign Affairs, May/June 2004 Summary: Most people think overpopulation is one of the worst dangers facing the globe. In fact, the opposite is true. As countries get richer, their populations age and their birthrates plummet. And this is not just a problem of rich countries: the developing world is also getting older fast. Falling birthrates might seem beneficial, but the economic and social price is too steep to pay. The right policies could help turn the tide, but only if enacted before it's too late. Phillip Longman is Senior Fellow at the New America Foundation and author of the forthcoming The Empty Cradle (Basic Books, 2004), from which this article is adapted. THE WRONG READING You awaken to news of a morning traffic jam. Leaving home early for a doctor's appointment, you nonetheless arrive too late to find parking. After waiting two hours for a 15-minute consultation, you wait again to have your prescription filled. All the while, you worry about the work you've missed because so many other people would line up to take your job. Returning home to the evening news, you watch throngs of youths throwing stones somewhere in the Middle East, and a feature on disappearing farmland in the Midwest. A telemarketer calls for the third time, telling you, "We need your help to save the rain forest." As you set the alarm clock for the morning, one neighbor's car alarm goes off and another's air conditioner starts to whine. So goes a day in the life of an average American. It is thus hardly surprising that many Americans think overpopulation is one of the world's most pressing problems. To be sure, the typical Westerner enjoys an unprecedented amount of private space. Compared to their parents, most now live in larger homes occupied by fewer children. They drive ever-larger automobiles, in which they can eat, smoke, or listen to the radio in splendid isolation. Food is so abundant that obesity has become a leading cause of death. Still, both day-to-day experience and the media frequently suggest that the quality of life enjoyed in the United States and Europe is under threat by population growth. Sprawling suburban development is making traffic worse, driving taxes up, and reducing opportunities to enjoy nature. Televised images of developing-world famine, war, and environmental degradation prompt some to wonder, "Why do these people have so many kids?" Immigrants and other people's children wind up competing for jobs, access to health care, parking spaces, favorite fishing holes, hiking paths, and spots at the beach. No wonder that, when asked how long it will take for world population to double, nearly half of all Americans say 20 years or less. Yet a closer look at demographic trends shows that the rate of world population growth has fallen by more than 40 percent since the late 1960s. And forecasts by the UN and other organizations show that, even in the absence of major wars or pandemics, the number of human beings on the planet could well start to decline within the lifetime of today's children. Demographers at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis predict that human population will peak (at 9 billion) by 2070 and then start to contract. Long before then, many nations will shrink in absolute size, and the average age of the world's citizens will shoot up dramatically. Moreover, the populations that will age fastest are in the Middle East and other underdeveloped regions. During the remainder of this century, even sub-Saharan Africa will likely grow older than Europe is today. FREE FALLING The root cause of these trends is falling birthrates. Today, the average woman in the world bears half as many children as did her counterpart in 1972. No industrialized country still produces enough children to sustain its population over time, or to prevent rapid population aging. Germany could easily lose the equivalent of the current population of what was once East Germany over the next half-century. Russia's population is already contracting by three-quarters of a million a year. Japan's population, meanwhile, is expected to peak as early as 2005, and then to fall by as much as one-third over the next 50 years -- a decline equivalent, the demographer Hideo Ibe has noted, to that experienced in medieval Europe during the plague. Although many factors are at work, the changing economics of family life is the prime factor in discouraging childbearing. In nations rich and poor, under all forms of government, as more and more of the world's population moves to urban areas in which children offer little or no economic reward to their parents, and as women acquire economic opportunities and reproductive control, the social and financial costs of childbearing continue to rise. In the United States, the direct cost of raising a middle-class child born this year through age 18, according to the Department of Agriculture, exceeds $200,000 -- not including college. And the cost in forgone wages can easily exceed $1 million, even for families with modest earning power. Meanwhile, although Social Security and private pension plans depend critically on the human capital created by parents, they offer the same benefits, and often more, to those who avoid the burdens of raising a family. Now the developing world, as it becomes more urban and industrialized, is experiencing the same demographic transition, but at a faster pace. Today, when Americans think of Mexico, for example, they think of televised images of desperate, unemployed youths swimming the Rio Grande or slipping through border fences. Yet because Mexican fertility rates have dropped so dramatically, the country is now aging five times faster than is the United States. It took 50 years for the American median age to rise just five years, from 30 to 35. By contrast, between 2000 and 2050, Mexico's median age, according to UN projections, will increase by 20 years, leaving half the population over 42. Meanwhile, the median American age in 2050 is expected to be 39.7. Those televised images of desperate, unemployed youth broadcast from the Middle East create a similarly misleading impression. Fertility rates are falling faster in the Middle East than anywhere else on earth, and as a result, the region's population is aging at an unprecedented rate. For example, by mid-century, Algeria will see its median age increase from 21.7 to 40, according to UN projections. Postrevolutionary Iran has seen its fertility rate plummet by nearly two-thirds and will accordingly have more seniors than children by 2030. Countries such as France and Japan at least got a chance to grow rich before they grew old. Today, most developing countries are growing old before they get rich. China's low fertility means that its labor force will start shrinking by 2020, and 30 percent of China's population could be over 60 by mid-century. More worrisome, China's social security system, which covers only a fraction of the population, already has debts exceeding 145 percent of its GDP. Making demographics there even worse, the spreading use of ultrasound and other techniques for determining the sex of fetuses is, as in India and many other parts of the world, leading to much higher abortion rates for females than for males. In China, the ratio of male to female births is now 117 to 100 -- which implies that roughly one out of six males in today's new generation will not succeed in reproducing. All told, some 59 countries, comprising roughly 44 percent of the world's total population, are currently not producing enough children to avoid population decline, and the phenomenon continues to spread. By 2045, according to the latest UN projections, the world's fertility rate as a whole will have fallen below replacement levels. REPAYING THE DEMOGRAPHIC DIVIDEND What impact will these trends have on the global economy and balance of power? Consider first the positive possibilities. Slower world population growth offers many benefits, some of which have already been realized. Many economists believe, for example, that falling birthrates made possible the great economic boom that occurred in Japan and then in many other Asian nations beginning in the 1960s. As the relative number of children declined, so did the burden of their dependency, thereby freeing up more resources for investment and adult consumption. In East Asia, the working-age population grew nearly four times faster than its dependent population between 1965 and 1990, freeing up a huge reserve of female labor and other social resources that would otherwise have been committed to raising children. Similarly, China's rapid industrialization today is being aided by a dramatic decline in the relative number of dependent children. Over the next decade, the Middle East could benefit from a similar "demographic dividend." Birthrates fell in every single Middle Eastern country during the 1990s, often dramatically. The resulting "middle aging" of the region will lower the overall dependency ratio over the next 10 to 20 years, freeing up more resources for infrastructure and industrial development. The appeal of radicalism could also diminish as young adults make up less of the population and Middle Eastern societies become increasingly dominated by middle-aged people concerned with such practical issues as health care and retirement savings. Just as population aging in the West during the 1980s was accompanied by the disappearance of youthful indigenous terrorist groups such as the Red Brigades and the Weather Underground, falling birthrates in the Middle East could well produce societies far less prone to political violence. Declining fertility rates at first bring a "demographic dividend." That dividend has to be repaid, however, if the trend continues. Although at first the fact that there are fewer children to feed, clothe, and educate leaves more for adults to enjoy, soon enough, if fertility falls beneath replacement levels, the number of productive workers drops as well, and the number of dependent elderly increase. And these older citizens consume far more resources than children do. Even after considering the cost of education, a typical child in the United States consumes 28 percent less than the typical working-age adult, whereas elders consume 27 percent more, mostly in health-related expenses. Largely because of this imbalance, population aging, once it begins creating more seniors than workers, puts severe strains on government budgets. In Germany, for example, public spending on pensions, even after accounting for a reduction in future benefits written into current law, is expected to swell from an already staggering 10.3 percent of GDP to 15.4 percent by 2040 -- even as the number of workers available to support each retiree shrinks from 2.6 to 1.4. Meanwhile, the cost of government health-care benefits for the elderly is expected to rise from today's 3.8 percent of GDP to 8.4 percent by 2040. Population aging also depresses the growth of government revenues. Population growth is a major source of economic growth: more people create more demand for the products capitalists sell, and more supply of the labor capitalists buy. Economists may be able to construct models of how economies could grow amid a shrinking population, but in the real world, it has never happened. A nation's GDP is literally the sum of its labor force times average output per worker. Thus a decline in the number of workers implies a decline in an economy's growth potential. When the size of the work force falls, economic growth can occur only if productivity increases enough to compensate. And these increases would have to be substantial to offset the impact of aging. Italy, for example, expects its working-age population to plunge 41 percent by 2050 -- meaning that output per worker would have to increase by at least that amount just to keep Italy's economic growth rate from falling below zero. With a shrinking labor supply, Europe's future economic growth will therefore depend entirely on getting more out of each remaining worker (many of them unskilled, recently arrived immigrants), even as it has to tax them at higher and higher rates to pay for old-age pensions and health care. Theoretically, raising the retirement age could help to ease the burden of unfunded old-age benefits. But declining fitness among the general population is making this tactic less feasible. In the United States, for example, the dramatic increases in obesity and sedentary lifestyles are already causing disability rates to rise among the population 59 and younger. Researchers estimate that this trend will cause a 10-20 percent increase in the demand for nursing homes over what would otherwise occur from mere population aging, and a 10-15 percent increase in Medicare expenditures on top of the program's already exploding costs. Meanwhile, despite the much ballyhooed "longevity revolution," life expectancy among the elderly in the United States is hardly improving. Indeed, due to changing lifestyle factors, life expectancy among American women aged 65 was actually lower in 2002 than it was in 1990, according to the Social Security Administration. The same declines in population fitness can now be seen in many other nations and are likely to overwhelm any public health benefits achieved through medical technology. According to the International Association for the Study of Obesity, an "alarming rise in obesity presents a pan-European epidemic." A full 35 percent of Italian children are now overweight. In the case of European men, the percentage who are overweight or obese ranges from over 40 percent in France to 70 percent in Germany. And as Western lifestyles spread throughout the developing world so do Western ways of dying. According to the World Health Organization, half of all deaths in places such as Mexico, China, and the Middle East are now caused by noncommunicable diseases related to Western lifestyle, such as cancers and heart attacks induced by smoking and obesity. GLOBAL AGING AND GLOBAL POWER Current population trends are likely to have another major impact: they will make military actions increasingly difficult for most nations. One reason for this change will be psychological. In countries where parents generally have only one or two children, every soldier becomes a "Private Ryan" -- a soldier whose loss would mean overwhelming devastation to his or her family. In the later years of the Soviet Union, for example, collapsing birthrates in the Russian core meant that by 1990, the number of Russians aged 15-24 had shrunk by 5.2 million from 25 years before. Given their few sons, it is hardly surprising that Russian mothers for the first time in the nation's history organized an antiwar movement, and that Soviet society decided that its casualties in Afghanistan were unacceptable. Another reason for the shift will be financial. Today, Americans consider the United States as the world's sole remaining superpower, which it is. As the cost of pensions and health care consume more and more of the nation's wealth, however, and as the labor force stops growing, it will become more and more difficult for Washington to sustain current levels of military spending or the number of men and women in uniform. Even within the U.S. military budget, the competition between guns and canes is already intense. The Pentagon today spends 84 cents on pensions for every dollar it spends on basic pay. Indeed, except during wartime, pensions are already one of the Pentagon's largest budget categories. In 2000, the cost of military pensions amounted to 12 times what the military spent on ammunition, nearly 5 times what the Navy spent on new ships, and more than 5 times what the Air Force spent on new planes and missiles. Of course, the U.S. military is also more technically sophisticated than ever before, meaning that national power today is much less dependent on the ability to raise large armies. But the technologies the United States currently uses to project its power -- laser-guided bombs, stealth aircraft, navigation assisted by the space-based Global Positioning System, nuclear aircraft carriers -- are all products of the sort of expensive research and development that the United States will have difficulty affording if the cost of old-age entitlements continues to rise. The same point applies to the U.S. ability to sustain, or increase, its levels of foreign aid. Although the United States faces less population aging than any other industrialized nation, the extremely high cost of its health care system, combined with its underfunded pension system, means that it still faces staggering liabilities. According to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the imbalance between what the U.S. federal government will collect in future taxes under current law and what it has promised to pay in future benefits now exceeds 500 percent of GDP. To close that gap, the IMF warns, "would require an immediate and permanent 60 percent hike in the federal income tax yield, or a 50 percent cut in Social Security and Medicare benefits." Neither is likely. Accordingly, in another 20 years, the United States will be no more able to afford the role of world policeman than Europe or Japan can today. Nor will China be able to assume the job, since it will soon start to suffer from the kind of hyper-aging that Japan is already experiencing. AGING AND THE PACE OF PROGRESS Even if there are fewer workers available to support each retiree in the future, won't technology be able to make up the difference? Perhaps. But there is also plenty of evidence to suggest that population aging itself works to depress the rate of technological and organizational innovation. Cross-country comparisons imply, for example, that after the proportion of elders increases in a society beyond a certain point, the level of entrepreneurship and inventiveness begins to drop. In 2002, Babson College and the London School of Business released their latest index of entrepreneurial activity. It shows that there is a distinct correlation between countries with a high ratio of workers to retirees and those with a high degree of entrepreneurship. Conversely, in countries in which a large share of the population is retired, the amount of new business formation is low. So, for example, two of the most entrepreneurial countries today are India and China, where there are currently roughly five people of working age for every person of retirement age. Meanwhile, Japan and France are among the least entrepreneurial countries on earth and have among the lowest ratios of workers to retirees. This correlation could be explained by many different factors. Both common sense and a vast literature in finance and psychology support the claim that as one approaches retirement age, one usually becomes more reluctant to take career or financial risks. It is not surprising, therefore, that aging countries such as Italy, France, and Japan are marked by exceptionally low rates of job turnover and by exceptionally conservative use of capital. Because prudence requires that older investors take fewer risks with their investments, it also stands to reason that as populations age, investor preference shifts toward safe bonds and bank deposits and away from speculative stocks and venture funds. As populations age further, ever-higher shares of citizens begin cashing out their investments and spending down their savings. Also to be considered are the huge public deficits projected to be run by major industrialized countries over the next several decades. Because of the mounting costs of pensions and health care, government spending on research and development, as well as on education, will likely drop. Moreover, massive government borrowing could easily crowd out financial capital that would otherwise be available to the private sector for investment in new technology. The Center for Strategic and International Studies has recently calculated that the cost of public benefits to the elderly will consume a dramatically rising share of GDP in industrialized countries. In the United States, such benefits currently consume 9.4 percent of GDP. But if current trends continue, this figure will top 20 percent by 2040. And in countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and Spain, somewhere between a quarter and a third of all national output will be consumed by old-age pensions and health care programs before today's 30-year-olds reach retirement age. Theoretically, a highly efficient, global financial market could lend financial resources from rich, old countries that are short on labor to young, poor countries that are short on capital, and make the whole world better off. But for this to happen, old countries would have to contain their deficits and invest their savings in places that are themselves either on the threshold of hyper-aging (China, India, Mexico) or highly destabilized by religious fanaticism, disease, and war (most of the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, Indonesia), or both. And who exactly would buy the products produced by these investments? Japan, South Korea, and other recently industrialized countries relied on massive exports to the United States and Europe to develop. But if the population of Europe and Japan drops, while the population of the United States ages considerably, where will the demand come from to support development in places such as the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa? Population aging is also likely to create huge legacy costs for employers. This is particularly true in the United States, where health and pension benefits are largely provided by the private sector. General Motors (GM) now has 2.5 retirees on its pension rolls for every active worker and an unfunded pension debt of $19.2 billion. Honoring its legacy costs to retirees now adds $1,800 to the cost of every vehicle GM makes, according to a 2003 estimate by Morgan Stanley. Just between 2001 and 2002, the U.S. government's projected short-term liability for bailing out failing private pension plans increased from $11 billion to $35 billion, with huge defaults expected from the steel and airline industries. An aging work force may also be less able or inclined to take advantage of new technology. This trend seems to be part of the cause for Japan's declining rates of productivity growth in the 1990s. Before that decade, the aging of Japan's highly educated work force was a weak but positive force in increasing the nation's productivity, according to studies. Older workers learned by doing, developing specialized knowledge and craft skills and the famous company spirit that made Japan an unrivaled manufacturing power. But by the 1990s, the continued aging of Japan's work force became a cause of the country's declining competitiveness. Population aging works against innovation in another way as well. As population growth dwindles, so does the need to increase the supply of just about everything, save health care. That means there is less incentive to find ways of making a gallon of gas go farther, or of increasing the capacity of existing infrastructure. Population growth is the mother of necessity. Without it, why bother to innovate? An aging society may have an urgent need to gain more output from each remaining worker, but without growing markets, individual firms have little incentive to learn how to do more with less -- and with a dwindling supply of human capital, they have fewer ideas to draw on. IMPORTING HUMAN CAPITAL f high-tech isn't the answer, what about immigration? It turns out that importing new, younger workers is at best only a partial solution. To be sure, the United States and other developed nations derive many benefits from their imported human capital. Immigration, however, does less than one might think to ease the challenges of population aging. One reason is that most immigrants arrive not as babies but with a third or so of their lives already behind them -- and then go on to become elderly themselves. In the short term, therefore, immigrants can help to increase the ratio of workers to retirees, but in the long term, they add much less youth to the population than would newborn children. Indeed, according to a study by the UN Population Division, if the United States hopes to maintain the current ratio of workers to retirees over time, it will have to absorb an average of 10.8 million immigrants annually through 2050. At that point, however, the U.S. population would total 1.1 billion, 73 percent of whom would be immigrants who had arrived in this country since 1995 or their descendants. Just housing such a massive influx would require the equivalent of building another New York City every 10 months. And even if the homes could be built, it is unclear how long the United States and other developed nations can sustain even current rates of immigration. One reason, of course, is heightened security concerns. Another is the prospect of a cultural backlash against immigrants, the chances of which increase as native birthrates decline. In the 1920s, when widespread apprehension about declining native fertility found voice in books such as Lothrop Stoddard's "The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy," the U.S. political system responded by shutting off immigration. Germany, Sweden, and France did the same in the 1970s as the reality of population decline among their native born started to set in. Another constraint on immigration to the United States involves supply. Birthrates, having already fallen well below replacement levels in Europe and Asia, are now plummeting throughout Latin America as well, which suggests that the United States' last major source of imported labor will dry up. This could occur long before Latin nations actually stop growing -- as the example of Puerto Rico shows. When most Americans think of Puerto Rico, they think of a sunny, over-crowded island that sends millions of immigrants to the West Side of New York City or to Florida. Yet with a fertility rate well below replacement level and a median age of 31.8 years, Puerto Rico no longer provides a net flow of immigrants to the mainland, despite an open border and a lower standard of living. Evidently, Puerto Rico now produces enough jobs to keep up with its slowing rate of population growth, and the allure of the mainland has thus largely vanished. For its part, sub-Saharan Africa still produces many potential immigrants to the United States, as do the Middle East and parts of South Asia. But to attract immigrants from these regions, the United States will have to compete with Europe, which is closer geographically and currently has a more acute need for imported labor. Europe also offers higher wages for unskilled work, more generous social benefits, and large, already established populations of immigrants from these areas. Even if the United States could compete with Europe for immigrants, it is by no means clear how many potential immigrants these regions will produce in the future. Birthrates are falling in sub-Saharan Africa as well as in the rest of the world, and war and disease have made mortality rates there extraordinarily high. UN projections for the continent as a whole show fertility declining to 2.4 children per woman by mid-century, which may well be below replacement levels if mortality does not dramatically improve. Although the course of the AIDS epidemic through sub-Saharan Africa remains uncertain, the CIA projects that AIDS and related diseases could kill as many as a quarter of the region's inhabitants by 2010. A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM Some biologists now speculate that modern humans have created an environment in which the "fittest," or most successful, individuals are those who have few, if any, children. As more and more people find themselves living under urban conditions in which children no longer provide economic benefit to their parents, but rather are costly impediments to material success, people who are well adapted to this new environment will tend not to reproduce themselves. And many others who are not so successful will imitate them. So where will the children of the future come from? The answer may be from people who are at odds with the modern environment -- either those who don't understand the new rules of the game, which make large families an economic and social liability, or those who, out of religious or chauvinistic conviction, reject the game altogether. Today there is a strong correlation between religious conviction and high fertility. In the United States, for example, fully 47 percent of people who attend church weekly say that the ideal family size is three or more children, as compared to only 27 percent of those who seldom attend church. In Utah, where 69 percent of all residents are registered members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, fertility rates are the highest in the nation. Utah annually produces 90 children for every 1,000 women of childbearing age. By comparison, Vermont -- the only state to send a socialist to Congress and the first to embrace gay civil unions -- produces only 49. Does this mean that the future belongs to those who believe they are (or who are in fact) commanded by a higher power to procreate? Based on current trends, the answer appears to be yes. Once, demographers believed that some law of human nature would prevent fertility rates from remaining below replacement level within any healthy population for more than brief periods. After all, don't we all carry the genes of our Neolithic ancestors, who one way or another managed to produce enough babies to sustain the race? Today, however, it has become clear that no law of nature ensures that human beings, living in free, developed societies, will create enough children to reproduce themselves. Japanese fertility rates have been below replacement levels since the mid-1950s, and the last time Europeans produced enough children to reproduce themselves was the mid-1970s. Yet modern institutions have yet to adapt to this new reality. Current demographic trends work against modernity in another way as well. Not only is the spread of urbanization and industrialization itself a major cause of falling fertility, it is also a major cause of so-called diseases of affluence, such as overeating, lack of exercise, and substance abuse, which leave a higher and higher percentage of the population stricken by chronic medical conditions. Those who reject modernity would thus seem to have an evolutionary advantage, whether they are clean-living Mormons or Muslims, or members of emerging sects and national movements that emphasize high birthrates and anti-materialism. SECULAR SOLUTIONS How can secular societies avoid population loss and decline? The problem is not that most people in these societies have lost interest in children. Among childless Americans aged 41 years and older in 2003, for example, 76 percent say they wish they had had children, up from 70 percent in 1990. In 2000, 40-year-old women in the United States and in every European nation told surveys that they had produced fewer children than they intended. Indeed, if European women now in their 40s had been able to produce their ideal number of children, the continent would face no prospect of population loss. The problem, then, is not one of desire. The problem is that even as modern societies demand more and more investment in human capital, this demand threatens its own supply. The clear tendency of economic development is toward a more knowledge-based, networked economy in which decision-making and responsibility are increasingly necessary at lower levels. In such economies, however, children often remain economically dependent on their parents well into their own childbearing years because it takes that long to acquire the panoply of technical skills, credentials, social understanding, and personal maturity that more and more jobs now require. For the same reason, many couples discover that by the time they feel they can afford children, they can no longer produce them, or must settle for just one or two. Meanwhile, even as aging societies become more and more dependent on the human capital parents provide, parents themselves get to keep less and less of the wealth they create by investing in their children. Employers make use of the skills parents endow their children with but offer parents no compensation. Governments also depend on parents to provide the next generation of taxpayers, but, with rare exception, give parents no greater benefits in old age than non-parents. To change this pattern, secular societies need to rethink how they go about educating young adults and integrating them into the work force, so that tensions between work and family are reduced. Education should be a lifetime pursuit, rather than crammed into one's prime reproductive years. There should also be many more opportunities for part-time and flex-time employment, and such work should offer full health and pension benefits, as well as meaningful career paths. Governments must also relieve parents from having to pay into social security systems. By raising and educating their children, parents have already contributed hugely (in the form of human capital) to these systems. The cost of their contribution, in both direct expenses and forgone wages, is often measured in the millions. Requiring parents also then to contribute to payroll taxes is not only unfair, but imprudent for societies that are already consuming more human capital than they produce. To cope with the diseases of affluence that make older workers less productive, rich societies must make greater efforts to promote public health. For example, why not offer reduced health care premiums to those who quit smoking, lose weight, or can demonstrate regular attendance in exercise programs? Why not do more to discourage sprawling, automobile-dependent patterns of development, which have adverse health effects including pollution, high rates of auto injuries and death, sedentary lifestyles, and social isolation? Modern, high-tech medicine, even for those who can afford it, does little to promote productive aging because by the time most people come to need it, their bodies have already been damaged by stress, indulgent habits, environmental dangers, and injuries. For all they spend on health care, Americans enjoy no greater life expectancy than the citizens of Costa Rica, where per capita health expenditure is less than $300. In his 1968 bestseller "The Population Bomb," Paul Ehrlich warned, "The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s the world will undergo famines -- hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now." Fortunately, Ehrlich's prediction proved wrong. But having averted the danger of overpopulation, the world now faces the opposite problem: an aging and declining population. We are, in one sense, lucky to have this problem and not its opposite. But that doesn't make the problem any less serious, or the solutions any less necessary. www.foreignaffairs.org is copyright 2002--2004 by the Council on Foreign Relations. All rights reserved. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 00:09:59 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:09:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050115002328.69106.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116000959.79557.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It doesn't appear McCarthy harmed the cause of anti-communism much if at all. Besides, again, there is no point in second-guessing history except as a what-if game. To get back to my original point, what was negative about '50s was the black poverty rate being at 50%. Allen Dulles mentioned to Truman or Eisenhower that something had to be done concerning black poverty so that the Soviets, and Communists in general, couldn't use it against us both domestically and internationally. >Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: >McCarthy could not have hurt the cause of >anti-communism more if he tried. I have sometimes >wondered if *he* was the mole in the government, but >people have been looking through the old Soviet >archives long enough now that it would have turned up >if he was. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 00:56:08 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:56:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unintended consequence Message-ID: <20050116005608.80059.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Someone here mentioned sexual matters in '50s. It's true oral contraception wasn't widely available in that decade, nor was abortion. The upside was-- just as one example-- AIDS did not exist in the '50s. So a couple could go to a drive-in and not worry about anything more dangerous than VD or pregnancy. This is the sort of unintended consequence that keeps conservatives in business. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 02:46:08 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:46:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050116000959.79557.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116024608.37116.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> McCarthy advanced the cause of anti-communism because both the Democrats, who were hip deep in communists, and the Republican party apparatchicks, didn't want to deal with the problem. The people in the media latched onto McCarthy and staged a lot of histrionic BS specifically because they were comrades of those on the suspect lists. For example, the fellow who cried on TV asking McCarthy if he had any shame was a communist, and his performance was specifically staged for propaganda purposes. The incident he was claiming to be so upset about was that another witness had committed suicide by shooting himself twice and throwing himself from a balcony, if that can be believed. The witness was volunteering to testify against communists. He was not reluctant, had not been compelled. The communists used the media, though, to claim that McCarthy had driven him to his death. This is all very well documented today. The only people who still dispute it, really, are the willfully ignorant liberals and the fellow travellers. --- Ned Late wrote: > It doesn't appear McCarthy harmed the cause of anti-communism much if > at all. Besides, again, there is no point in second-guessing history > except as a what-if game. > To get back to my original point, what was negative about '50s was > the black poverty rate being at 50%. Allen Dulles mentioned to Truman > or Eisenhower that something had to be done concerning black poverty > so that the Soviets, and Communists in general, couldn't use it > against us both domestically and internationally. > > >Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > >McCarthy could not have hurt the cause of > >anti-communism more if he tried. I have sometimes > >wondered if *he* was the mole in the government, but > >people have been looking through the old Soviet > >archives long enough now that it would have turned up > >if he was. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 02:47:45 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:47:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unintended consequence In-Reply-To: <20050116005608.80059.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116024746.26024.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Sure there was 'oral contraception' in those days, even the nuns taught it to catholic girls so they could save their virginity until marriage. It just took a little more work than swallowing a pill.... --- Ned Late wrote: > Someone here mentioned sexual matters in '50s. It's true oral > contraception wasn't widely available in that decade, nor was > abortion. The upside was-- just as one example-- AIDS did not exist > in the '50s. So a couple could go to a drive-in and not worry about > anything more dangerous than VD or pregnancy. > This is the sort of unintended consequence that keeps conservatives > in business. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do?> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 16 02:50:05 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:50:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539760AC-6769-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 12, 2005, at 2:32 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> I would also point out that even if you live frugally and without a >> second car (not a luxury if commuting by two to different locations >> including one ferrying kids around and taking care of the home), big >> screen TV etc, raising even a small family in many parts of the >> country is barely possible if at all for many single earner >> households in the US. The effective costs are quite high unless one >> does a lot off the normal consumer grid. > > The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't get into debt to > start with and watch your standard of living go up. Buy what you need > in cash, don't borrow, don't get yourself in a position where you need > to borrow. Getting off the grid is not hard, and not a sacrifice. Even > here in relatively high cost of living NH, it is only hard if that is > the life you choose. Is debt servicing bigger than rent/mortgage? If so then I am shocked and appalled. > > And don't live some place with a big public school system. People think > that public schools save them time. It doesn't. As we've shown, the > average public school education costs $9,000. If you have three kids, > it is only cost effective for both spouses to work outside the home if > the lowest wage earner has a TAKE HOME income of ~$40k. If you make > that much, you could quit your jobs, keep your taxes, homeschool your > kids, have one less car (That extra $13k covers vehicle loan, > insurance, operating costs, etc. as well as after school babysitting, > etc.), and have the exact same standard of living. > Please show the math. I don't see how you derived this conclusion. How does having one care help as kids and a household both involve frequent needs for transportation? Exactly how do I keep my taxes? Sounds wonderful. > If spousal equality is so important, each could take a part time job > instead of a full time one, share in the schooling etc and have the > same standard of living. Getting off the tax grid is the important > thing. > > All other things being equal which they are certainly not. Two part time jobs at 20 hours/week would lose big on benefits, career advancement and so on. Again, how do we get off the tax grid without risking major lack of extropy in a prison cell? I really very much would like to know. Reply privately if you wish. - samantha From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 02:58:44 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:58:44 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens amateur image mosaics and panoramas Message-ID: The ESA has been a little slow with publicly releasing tons of images, probably because they're busy processing the huge amounts of scientific data from Huygens. Some folks over at the #space channel on irc.freenode.net have filled the void by doing various sorts of processing on the raw available descent images, producing a number of fantastic panoramas, compositions, and animations. Most of these are described on this page: http://anthony.liekens.net/index.php/Main/Huygens Some of the best composites are these, which show the landing position on the Cassini orbital view, the far-away Huygens view, and the final close-up view: http://spacescience.ca/titan/Titan_huygens_landing_site_mosaic.jpg http://spacescience.ca/titan/Titan_huygens_landing_site_mosaic_big.jpg Also, here's a cool animation made from the images on the surface. Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like there's some things (raindrops?) zipping by the camera: http://www.mars.asu.edu/~gorelick/huygens1.gif The raw images (367 total triple-views) are available here: http://spacescience.ca/titan/raw/ I've taken the liberty of cropping out and separating the individual camera views, which should make them more suitable for creating composites and panoramas: http://www.its.caltech.edu/~neilh/huygens/huygens_image_triplets_separated.zip The following program may be useful for creating composite images: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/autostitch/autostitch.html -- Neil Halelamien From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 16 07:42:41 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:42:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Dirk Bruere wrote: >> http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm > > Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: > > 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic wave > of any reasonable coherence? HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun mix of science, paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It is difficult to separate firm ground from swamp. > (Sorry, the world's > satellite networks *AREN'T* up to the task. Neither > are more conventional broadcast networks. And that's > assuming either one could be coopted by one central > organization, and assumption that is easily shown > false if you take a look at the wide range of > organizations that actually operate the various > satellites and transmitters.) > > 1a. Specifically, how to do the above with the > exceedingly high precision necessary for neural > induction? > > 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through > induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague > "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that seems to > be about as far as anyone's gotten? Not quite. There may have been work done in this area as part of MKULTRA and other projects that came out due to FOIA. http://educate-yourself.org/mc/listofmcsymptoms05jun03.shtml http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/anti-personal-electromagnet-weapons.htm > > 3 and most importantly. Even if this were feasable, it > would be a rather unextropian act. The ends do not > justify the means; eradicating all who oppose us (say, > by reprogramming them away) is very unlikely to > actually lead to the society that we desire, as > demonstrated by the results of comparable approaches > (genocide, eugenics) in the past. (A case could be > made that it's theoretically possible to achieve what > we want by these methods, if one studies why the > previous attempts failed. But that is irrelevant > here, since this just proposes a new method of > controlling people without addressing why trying to > control people - regardless of exact method - has > failed.) > > My initial take is that stuff like this has no place > on the extropy-chat list...though I might be wrong. > It would be advisable to be aware of such things. We could easily become victims of such otherwise. Question: If you had a friend about to commit suicide and you have exhausted all means of persuasion, are you justified in stopping them, against their will, from taking their live? Are you justified if you know that later they will sincerely thank you if you successfully intervene? Not an easy question to answer, is it? Or is it? Now suppose that it wasn't a friend about to commit suicide but humanity itself willfully headed for almost certain destruction? If you thought you could do something, even if against what all the world said it wanted, even against your own principles of the boundaries ruled by respect for the free will of others, would you? I hope that is an easier question. But it is a question. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 16 07:50:48 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:50:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050113070156.15696.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050113070156.15696.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55CCC348-6793-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 12, 2005, at 11:01 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >> On Jan 11, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >>>> This would be equivalent to claiming >>>> that chemistry was >>>> actually modern alchemy >>> >>> It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: >> there >>> is no question among serious historians that >> modern >>> chemistry had its origins in alchemy. >> >> Having origins in and being the same as are quite >> different things, yes? > > Yes, but that was not quite what was stated. > "Chemistry" != "alchemy", but "chemistry" = "modern > alchemy". Note the "modern", which can be read as > "has origins in". > Not with a lot of justification it can't. Where exactly do you draw boundaries about the meaning of a word? >> Why attempt to twist yourself into a pretzel >> like this? > > To demonstrate why caution should be taken when > choosing one's words. ;) In this case, what you > probably meant to say was just "chemistry was actually > alchemy", not "chemistry was actually modern alchemy". > I am perfectly content with the original word. I am not content with this "lesson" I neither asked for or need. > It's semantics, true. But semantics can be (and often > are) used by our opponents to twist the meanings of > our words far away from what we meant, even while > keeping them perfectly in context. This was a > relatively minor example. > Thanks loads I'm sure. - samantha From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 11:04:32 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:04:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough Message-ID: <470a3c520501160304600ad734@mail.gmail.com> If reliable, this news item is very significant and could mark the transition of solar energy from nice experiment to viable operational alternative to fossil fuels. Scientists have invented a plastic solar cell that can turn the sun's power into electrical energy, even on a cloudy day. The plastic material uses nanotechnology and contains the first solar cells able to harness the sun's invisible, infrared rays. The breakthrough has led theorists to predict that plastic solar cells could one day become five times more efficient than current solar cell technology. Like paint, the composite can be sprayed onto other materials and used as portable electricity. A sweater coated in the material could power a cell phone or other wireless devices. A hydrogen-powered car painted with the film could potentially convert enough energy into electricity to continually recharge the car's battery. The researchers envision that one day "solar farms" consisting of the plastic material could be rolled across deserts to generate enough clean energy to supply the entire planet's power needs. "Flexible, roller-processed solar cells have the potential to turn the sun's power into a clean, green, convenient source of energy," said John Wolfe, a nanotechnology venture capital investor at Lux Capital in New York City. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 11:16:43 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:16:43 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics Message-ID: <470a3c5205011603161ed28cf3@mail.gmail.com> Slashdot:The Economist has a story today introducing the concept of Neuroeconomics, which uses brain scanning technology and neuroscience to create new economic models and theories. [http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/16/001241&tid=98&tid=191&tid=14] The Economist: The current bout of research is made possible by the arrival of new technologies such as functional magnetic-resonance imaging, which allows second-by-second observation of brain activity. At several American universities, economists and their collaborators in the neurosciences have been placing human subjects in such brain scanners and asking them to perform a variety of economic tasks and games. For example, the idea that humans compute the "expected value" of future events is central to many economic models. Whether people will invest in shares or buy insurance depends on how they estimate the odds of future events weighted by the gains and losses in each case. Your pension, for example, might have a very low expected value if there is a large probability that bonds and shares will plunge just before you retire. [http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3556121] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 16 17:11:20 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:11:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator Message-ID: <41EAA038.14A8B0DD@mindspring.com> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:04:03 -0700, "Terry W. Colvin" fwded: >I'd been under the impression that a lunar elevator >wouldn't work; it'd be too long or something. >However I see another view at >< http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/lunar_space_elevator.html > >Pearson is proposing that NASA launch a spacecraft >carrying a huge spool of cable to the L1 point. >It would slowly back away from the L1 point as it >unspooled its cable down to the surface of the Moon. Terry may well be right in his impression that this wouldn't work, indeed *any* space elevator would be subject to a number of fundamental problems. None of the discussions I've read about space elevators addresses the problem of dealing with Coriolis forces. The further any part of the elevator system (cables, orbiting anchors, etc.) get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system linear and stable. The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. Robin Hill, STEAMY BESS, Brough, East Yorkshire. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 17:46:21 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:46:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <41EAA038.14A8B0DD@mindspring.com> References: <41EAA038.14A8B0DD@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050116174621.GQ9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 10:11:20AM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > Terry may well be right in his impression that this wouldn't work, indeed *any* > space elevator would be subject to a number of fundamental problems. None of the > discussions I've read about space elevators addresses the problem of dealing > with Coriolis forces. The further any part of the elevator system (cables, He wasn't searching very hard, obviously. http://www.isr.us/spaceelevatorconference/pdf/Gassend/SpaceElevatorDynamics.pdf is the second hit on http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=coriolis+space+elevator&btnG=Search > orbiting anchors, etc.) get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force > tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system linear and stable. > The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon and > increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a perfectly straight > cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's > Rendezvous with Rama. > > Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've got the wrong > end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators do sound like a bit of a > non-starter to me. http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/lunar_space_elevator.html is far more interesting than any terrestrian elevator. > Robin Hill, STEAMY BESS, Brough, East Yorkshire. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 18:26:29 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:26:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116182628.GV9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 04:06:11PM -0800, Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. > > It's all been done in > > 1960s with Laika et al. > > Really? Then why did Nasa alone launch 87 sounding > rockets in the last 4 years? > > http://www.wff.nasa.gov/~code810/SRBlueBook.htm > > ESA seems to have an active suborbital program as > well. > > http://spaceflight.esa.int/users/file.cfm?filename=facsrockets Allright, I scale this back a bit. There's no *major* science to be done in suborbital flights. There's some good science to be done in prolonged microgravity. There's some serious science and *industry* to be done on lunar surface. > > SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. > > It wasn't? Guess they fooled me. Sure looked like > it. > > Seemed that it fooled some other people, too, who > wanted to book it for science flights. I see you've omitted the "suborbital flight" qualifier. > http://www.spacetoday.net/weblog/entry.php?id=260 > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3722596.stml Last one is a 404, but you're absolutely accurate. People don't understand what 32 MJ/kg difference (between 100 km orbit, and 100 km of what SpaceShipOne did, zero velocity at 100 km height) means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space ... Space does not equal orbit A common misunderstanding about the boundary to space is that orbit occurs by reaching this altitude. Orbit, however, requires orbital speed and can theoretically occur at any altitude. Atmospheric drag precludes an orbit that is too low. Minimal altitudes for a stable orbit begin at around 350 km (220 miles) above mean sea level, so to actually perform an orbital spaceflight, a spacecraft would need to go higher and (more importantly) faster than what would be required for a sub-orbital spaceflight. Reaching orbit requires tremendous speed. A craft has not reached orbit until it is circling Earth so quickly that the upward centrifugal "force" cancels the downward gravitational force on the craft. Having climbed up out of the atmosphere, a craft entering orbit must then turn sideways and continue firing its rockets to reach the necessary speed; for low Earth orbit, the speed is about 7.9km per second (18,000 mph). Thus, achieving the necessary altitude is only the first step in reaching orbit. The energy required to reach velocity for low earth orbit (32 MJ/kg) is about twenty times the energy to reach the corresponding altitude (10 kJ/km/kg). [edit] > Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly > figure of merit for science. Given that the amount of available .gov funds is very limited (and shrinking) questions of ROI is very relevant. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 18:52:21 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:52:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050116182628.GV9221@leitl.org> References: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> <20050116182628.GV9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050116185221.GX9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 07:26:29PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Last one is a 404, but you're absolutely accurate. People don't understand > what 32 MJ/kg difference (between 100 km orbit, and 100 km of what > SpaceShipOne did, zero velocity at 100 km height) means. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space Sorry, that Earl wasn't quite the real thing. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_between_orbital_and_suborbital_spaceflights Difference between sub-orbital and orbital spaceflights From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. (Redirected from Difference between orbital and suborbital spaceflights) There sometimes appears to be confusion among the general public about the difference between sub-orbital and orbital spaceflights. This article is an attempt to clarify this issue. It also elaborates on the technical implications of the differences between orbital and sub-orbital spaceflights. A spaceflight is a flight into or through space. The craft which undertakes a spaceflight is called a spacecraft. The general public often thinks of orbital spaceflights as spaceflights and of sub-orbital spaceflights as "something less than actual spaceflights". This is not accurate; both orbital and sub-orbital spaceflights are true spaceflights. The term orbit can be used in two ways: it can mean a trajectory in general, or it can mean a closed trajectory. The terms sub-orbital and orbital spaceflights refer to the latter: an orbital spaceflight is one which completes an orbit fully around the central body. For a flight from Earth to be a spaceflight, the spacecraft has to ascend from Earth and at the very least go past the edge of space. The edge of space is, for the purpose of space flight, often accepted to lie at a height of 100 km (62 miles) above mean sea level. Any flight that goes higher than that is by definition a spaceflight. Where the Earth's atmosphere ends space begins but the atmosphere fades out gradually so the precise boundary is difficult to ascertain - hence the need for an arbitrary altitude for the edge of space. Contents [showhide] 1 Angular velocity 2 Difference in the real world 2.1 Atmospheric reentry a much bigger challenge with orbital flights 3 Summary 4 See also [edit] Angular velocity An orbital spaceflight is achieved when the spacecraft travels around the Earth in space at sufficient lateral velocity (or equivalently, enough angular velocity) for the centrifugal force to cancel out the pull of Earth's gravity. Lateral velocity is the speed of something around an object and it is this which is the critical factor. Although the angular velocity required is a function of the height of the orbit, orbital spaceflight is possible at any altitude beyond the edge of space. A body which does not have sufficient angular velocity cannot orbit the Earth. The actual speed of a sub-orbital spacecraft could exceed that of an orbital one and the height that a sub-orbital spacecraft attains may even exceed that of an orbital one, but the critical difference between the two - the achieving of an orbit - depends crucially on the angular velocity. Travelling straight up will never result in an orbit, doing so faster than escape velocity will have the obvious effect and orbit is still not attained. [edit] Difference in the real world That said, typical sub-orbital craft need go only just past the accepted edge of space (at 100 km / 62.5 miles) for the flight to be a spaceflight. At this arbitrary boundary there is still too much atmosphere present for a long term stable low earth orbit (LEO). In order to be stable for more than just a few weeks or months the satellite or spacecraft is placed in orbit at an altitude where drag from the atmosphere truly is negligible. A stable LEO is usually at least 350 km up. But again, the difference in height should not be overemphasized: Whether the altitude is 100 km or 350 km the distance from the centre of the Earth is only different by less than four percent. The difference between the lowest speeds required for orbital and sub-orbital space flights is substantial: a spacecraft must reach about 18,000 mph to attain orbit. This compares to the relatively modest 2,500-3,000 mph typically attained for sub-orbital crafts. The important difference in energy requirements between a sub-orbital spaceflight such as that required for the X Prize and for an orbital spaceflight is that no lateral or angular velocity is required for the sub-orbital flight. The energy required to get to 100 km or even 350 km altitude is dwarfed by the energy required for the necessary lateral velocity of orbital space flight. In terms of energy: accelerating a spacecraft to orbital speed requires about 31 times as much net energy as just lifting it to a height of 100 km (together 32 times), see computation. But this is the energy which must be imparted to the orbiting mass: For a rocket the fuel and oxygen (and their tanks) must be accelerated as well and so the energy requirement is actually much more than the factor of 32 identified. (See the rocket equation article for a more detailed treatment). In terms of the semi-major axes a of the elliptic orbits: the total specific orbital energy is \epsilon=-{\mu\over{2a}} where \mu\, is the standard gravitational parameter. Being at rest at the surface of the Earth corresponds to a = R / 2 (with R the radius of the Earth). Reaching a height of 100 km means an increase of a of 50 km, while a LEO requires an increase of a of more than 3000 km. See also low-energy trajectories. A vertical sub-orbital flight with the same energy as a LEO would reach a height of ca. 7000 km above the surface. [edit] Atmospheric reentry a much bigger challenge with orbital flights Because of that speed difference, atmospheric reentry is much more difficult for orbital flights than it is for sub-orbital flights. Note however, that such considerations only apply to orbital flights where the vehicle needs to return to Earth intact. If the vehicle is, say, a satellite that is ultimately expendable, then there naturally is no need to worry about reentry. Returning craft though (including all potentially manned craft), have to find a way of slowing down as much as possible while still in higher atmospheric layers and avoid plunging downwards too quickly. To date (as of 2004), the problem of deceleration from orbital speeds has mainly been solved through aerobraking, ie. using the atmospheric drag itself to slow down. On an orbital space flight initial deceleration is provided by the retrofiring of the craft's rocket engines. Aerobraking in turn has so far mainly been achieved through orienting the returning space craft to fly at a high drag attitude coupled with ultra strong heat shields on the space craft, to protect against the high temperatures generated by atmospheric compression and friction caused by passing through the atmosphere at supersonic speeds. The thermal energy is dissipated mainly as infrared radiation. Sub-orbital space flights, being at a much lower speed, do not generate anywhere near as much heat upon re-entry. This has allowed maverick aircraft designer Burt Rutan recently (July 2004) to demonstrate an alternative or complementary approach to heat shield dependant reentry with the suborbital SpaceShipOne. It may be possible that the concepts utilized in SpaceShipOne's design can be applied to orbital space craft design and result in a markedly reduced need for a massive heat shield. Currently however, the need for an ultra high-performance and ultra reliable heat shield is a major difference between crafts designed for orbital flights (as opposed to sub-orbital ones). [edit] Summary * Sub-orbital spaceflights flights are spaceflights just as orbital * flights are. * Both go beyond the atmosphere and past the edge of space. * A sub-orbital flight can reach a higher height than an orbital one. * The most important requirement for an orbital flight over a sub-orbital * one is speed. * The shock wave produced by high speed atmospheric reentry generates * lots of heat from which the spacecraft must be protected. [edit] See also * Boundary to space * Low Earth orbit * Atmospheric reentry * Aerobraking Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_between_sub-orbital_and_orbital_spaceflights" Categories: Space | Human spaceflight > > ... > > Space does not equal orbit > > A common misunderstanding about the boundary to space is that orbit occurs by > reaching this altitude. Orbit, however, requires orbital speed and can > theoretically occur at any altitude. Atmospheric drag precludes an orbit that > is too low. > > Minimal altitudes for a stable orbit begin at around 350 km (220 miles) above > mean sea level, so to actually perform an orbital spaceflight, a spacecraft > would need to go higher and (more importantly) faster than what would be > required for a sub-orbital spaceflight. > > Reaching orbit requires tremendous speed. A craft has not reached orbit until > it is circling Earth so quickly that the upward centrifugal "force" cancels > the downward gravitational force on the craft. Having climbed up out of the > atmosphere, a craft entering orbit must then turn sideways and continue > firing its rockets to reach the necessary speed; for low Earth orbit, the > speed is about 7.9km per second (18,000 mph). Thus, achieving the necessary > altitude is only the first step in reaching orbit. > > The energy required to reach velocity for low earth orbit (32 MJ/kg) is about > twenty times the energy to reach the corresponding altitude (10 kJ/km/kg). > [edit] > > > Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly > > figure of merit for science. > > Given that the amount of available .gov funds is very limited > (and shrinking) questions of ROI is very relevant. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 16 19:31:22 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:31:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Re: Yes!! Huygens is on Titan Message-ID: <41EAC10A.19EE9365@mindspring.com> From: "Trev" wrote: > > It's certainly amazing to think of a spacecraft landing on something so far > away IMO it's an astounding engineering as well as scientific feat. The whole thing appears to have been virtually flawless, this being especially impressive since it was a first (and only) attempt. The sad part is we will not likely see a followup for many years especially now that Dubya has his heart set on exorbitant low return stuff like the manned Mars & Moon mission. If I were King, I would can the manned flights, including the ISS, and concentrate on what NASA (and everyone else) does best. and no doubt scientists are going to be busy interpreting data from it > for a while but a couple of things puzzle. What was the point of a > microphone, and why didn't they put a video camera on the thing? The microphone was to listen for noise in Titan's atmosphere such as from possible nearby thunder storms or howling winds. I listened to the playback but it was quite uneventful (a kind of roaring noise which I guess was simply microphone noise from passage through the atmosphere). I assume a video camera (as opposed to a still camera) was not used due to bandwidth limitations and the likelihood that better images can be obtained with a still camera especially considering the low light level at Titan. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 20:12:02 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:12:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <20050116174621.GQ9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force > > tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system > > linear and stable. > > The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon > > and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a > > perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the > > curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. > > > > Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've > > got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators > > do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. An earth cable would curve because of lunar tidal influence only, putting tidal drag on the ends. A lunar cable at the inner lagrange point would be tidally locked with the moon, and would be curved by the tidal drag of the Earth. However, this only assumes that there is no other tension. If, for instance, the CG of the skyhook is slightly higher than geostationary orbit (or just earthside of the inner lagrange point), and the ground end is anchored sufficently, tension will keep the cable taught. Because the system is in tension from these forces, anchoring the end to the ground will translate tangential forces into tension forces that are merely pre-existing frame dragging forces in the earth-moon system. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 16 20:15:02 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:15:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Titan_=A0?= Message-ID: <20050116200936.M91800@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Mike Lorrey: >One does need to ask what the value of a data minute >of particle and field data is worth versus photography of planets and >moons, radar mapping, etc. Since 99% of the universe is in a plasma state, I think that the particle and fields data is quite valuable. Those of us, on top of rocks such as this, live in special conditions. >As for Huygens, maybe it is because of the age of the probes, but >after seeing the pictures from the Mars Rovers, the miniscule low >resolution pictures sent back by Huygens are a little >disappointing. Sorry, you are so disappointed in Huygens. My view is that it was an engineering and scientific achievment like no other in the planetary sciences (you might look at your favorite Mars missions, and note the failures). It also looks like you have made your judgement based on zero of the data from the other five instruments. Re: Image data. 1) You are judging alot from 3/350 of the visible data you have seen at the web sites. 2) I wonder why you are so focused on electromagnetic wave data only from the visible part of the spectrum. Do you realize how tiny is that part of the spectrum? Yes, I do know that people in general like pretty pictures, but visible light is a very small part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and remote sensing by electromagnetic waves is one part of the measurement techniques available to scientists. [Remote sensing -- which is used by most of the fields in astronomy, with the exception of planetary science -- is also one-step removed from the object that one is measuring. Planetary science is the almost the only astronomy field where one can collect astronomy data in-situ.] >Okay, then my previous calculation makes Cassini's average cost per >data minute on a par with the Mars Rovers. If so, such a valuation >demolishes the idea of "Better, Faster, Cheaper" that Sean O'Keefe >promoted for many years: The Mars Rovers are no cheaper, in data >dollars, than Cassini, which is arguably the most 'expensive' space >probe in history. Cassini was never part of the 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions, that initiative came ten years after Cassini's conception. Cassini emerged from a combination of the cancelled NASA CRAF mission and an ESA mission from the early-mid 1980s. http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ssb/crafcassini88.html http://www.aip.org/enews/fyi/1994/fyi94.014.txt The NASA 'smaller-cheapter-faster' was Dan Goldin's initiative, started in 1994. http://ipp.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation51/wel2ati.htm Amara From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 20:18:29 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:18:29 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are cars on the way out? Message-ID: Wisconsin's small town futurists By Peter Day BBC News, Wisconsin, USA The Midwest is normally the bit of America that people fly over going coast to coast. But what do these small town people think our futures may look like? Well, argue William and Julie Draves, just as the 20th Century started with two decades of huge disruptions to the 19th Century ways of doing things, most notably the car, so our world is in the process of similar radical transformation. This time, the agent of change is, of course, the internet. Despite the dot.com bubble bursting, we have still hardly woken up to its disruptive force. In particular, argue the Draveses, cars are about to go into sharp decline. As increasing numbers of people work from home, using the internet, they will not want to waste valuable time driving, so they will not bother. When they do move, they will take the train, and work at the same time. We parents do not understand our children, say these educationalists, for good reason. They understand the future and we do not. "Nine Shift" by William Draves, Julie Coates Using the industrial revolution as the benchmark and led by the emergence of the automobile at the turn of the 1900s, the authors show what we can learn and possibly use to project the changes in our lifestyles, work, and education as we now navigate the Information and Knowledge Age. The authors cover many topics, such as the Intranet replacing offices, working from home, organizational restructuring, the decline of the automobile and increase of light rail, and the return to the city and the growth of the planned communities. What I found most exciting, however, was what the authors have to say about learning online, the transformation of the face-to-face classroom, the future of the college campus, and the complete overhaul of our approach to education. By the 1920s, the agrarian culture in the U.S. was completely transformed by the Industrial Age. We are now in the formative year of a new knowledge era. Hold on to your seats, because the ride is about to get wild. This book is guaranteed to create controversy and great discussions." BillK From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 16 20:32:04 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:32:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41EACF44.8070800@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > >>>get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force >>>tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system >>>linear and stable. >>>The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon >>>and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a >>>perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the >>>curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. >>> >>>Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've >>>got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators >>>do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. >>> >>> > >An earth cable would curve because of lunar tidal influence only, >putting tidal drag on the ends. A lunar cable at the inner lagrange >point would be tidally locked with the moon, and would be curved by the >tidal drag of the Earth. However, this only assumes that there is no >other tension. If, for instance, the CG of the skyhook is slightly >higher than geostationary orbit (or just earthside of the inner >lagrange point), and the ground end is anchored sufficently, tension >will keep the cable taught. > >Because the system is in tension from these forces, anchoring the end >to the ground will translate tangential forces into tension forces that >are merely pre-existing frame dragging forces in the earth-moon system. > > > How important is nutation? From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 16 20:35:56 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:35:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Titan_=A0?= Message-ID: <20050116203249.M19167@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> I said (wrongly) >[Remote sensing -- which is used by most of the fields in >astronomy, with the exception of planetary science -- is also >one-step removed from the object that one is measuring. Planetary >science is the almost the only astronomy field where one can >collect astronomy data in-situ.] This didn't come out right. I meant to say that remote sensing is the primary method with which astronomers collect data, including those in the planetary sciences, but planetary astronomers have the added advantage of access to in-situ methods. Amara From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 22:09:09 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:09:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050116174621.GQ9221@leitl.org> <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116220908.GE9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 12:12:02PM -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: No, actually he didn't. > > > get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force > > > tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system > > > linear and stable. > > > The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon > > > and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a > > > perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the > > > curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. > > > > > > Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've > > > got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators > > > do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. > > An earth cable would curve because of lunar tidal influence only, > putting tidal drag on the ends. A lunar cable at the inner lagrange > point would be tidally locked with the moon, and would be curved by the > tidal drag of the Earth. However, this only assumes that there is no > other tension. If, for instance, the CG of the skyhook is slightly > higher than geostationary orbit (or just earthside of the inner > lagrange point), and the ground end is anchored sufficently, tension > will keep the cable taught. > > Because the system is in tension from these forces, anchoring the end > to the ground will translate tangential forces into tension forces that > are merely pre-existing frame dragging forces in the earth-moon system. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mike99 at lascruces.com Sun Jan 16 23:37:49 2005 From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:37:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205011603161ed28cf3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The results of this research may indicate why so few people are rushing to support transhumanism, with its promises of large future payoffs for investing in present-day research and such endeavors as cryonics. The emotional brain centers predispose people to favor immediate gratification. Delayed gratification requires thought and self-discipline, neither of which is over abundantly represented in observed human behavior. Another human tendency revealed by this research is the disproportionate fear of loss in situations where the probability of loss and gain are actually equal. As the saying goes, people prefer "the devil they know" (the current situation, even if it is not one of profit and abundance) over "the devil they don't know" (a large potential payoff that entails some substantial risk of loss). This human propensity is exploited by those who overemphasize threats to the environment, or to the food supply from genetically modified foods, or to everyone and everything from nanotechnology. I do not claim that there are no dangers here. What I do claim is that the dangers are often given too much weight when compared to the very large potential benefits. Feeling scared and scaring others is easy. Thinking through the situation and planning a balanced approach to investment and development are hard. Regards, Michael LaTorra mike99 at lascruces.com mlatorra at nmsu.edu "For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes towards slavery." -- Jacob Bronowski "Experiences only look special from the inside of the system." -- Eugen Leitl Member: Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org Society for Technical Communication: www.stc.org > -----Original Message----- > From: wta-politics-bounces at transhumanism.org > [mailto:wta-politics-bounces at transhumanism.org]On Behalf Of Giu1i0 > Pri5c0 > Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 4:17 AM > To: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com; hitbangpost at googlegroups.com; ExI > chat list; List for political news and discussion; > futuretag at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [wta-politics] Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics > > > Slashdot:The Economist has a story today introducing the concept of > Neuroeconomics, which uses brain scanning technology and neuroscience > to create new economic models and theories. > [http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/16/001241&tid=98 > &tid=191&tid=14] > The Economist: The current bout of research is made possible by the > arrival of new technologies such as functional magnetic-resonance > imaging, which allows second-by-second observation of brain activity. > At several American universities, economists and their collaborators > in the neurosciences have been placing human subjects in such brain > scanners and asking them to perform a variety of economic tasks and > games. > For example, the idea that humans compute the "expected value" of > future events is central to many economic models. Whether people will > invest in shares or buy insurance depends on how they estimate the > odds of future events weighted by the gains and losses in each case. > Your pension, for example, might have a very low expected value if > there is a large probability that bonds and shares will plunge just > before you retire. > [http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3556121] > _______________________________________________ > wta-politics mailing list > wta-politics at transhumanism.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-politics > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 23:54:09 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan   In-Reply-To: <20050116200936.M91800@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <20050116235409.68565.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > > Mike Lorrey: > >One does need to ask what the value of a data minute > >of particle and field data is worth versus photography of planets > and > >moons, radar mapping, etc. > > Since 99% of the universe is in a plasma state, I think that the > particle and fields data is quite valuable. Those of us, on top > of rocks such as this, live in special conditions. Yes, but 'quite valuable' is a meaningless term. HOW valuable, in, say, dollars per megabyte of data, is it? > > >As for Huygens, maybe it is because of the age of the probes, but > >after seeing the pictures from the Mars Rovers, the miniscule low > >resolution pictures sent back by Huygens are a little > >disappointing. > > Sorry, you are so disappointed in Huygens. My view is that it was > an engineering and scientific achievment like no other in the > planetary sciences (you might look at your favorite Mars > missions, and note the failures). It also looks like you have > made your judgement based on zero of the data from the > other five instruments. Well, no, I'm not making a judgement about all of the data, I'm making a judgement about the video data, which is of a disappointingly low resolution. I hear that one reason for this is the loss of one of the data channels, according to one article I read. > > Re: Image data. > > 1) You are judging alot from 3/350 of the visible data you have > seen at the web sites. > > 2) I wonder why you are so focused on electromagnetic wave data > only from the visible part of the spectrum. Do you realize how > tiny is that part of the spectrum? I'm not, so it's too bad you are making that assumption. I've listened to the microphone data, and to the radar record, which is likely going to be valuable in providing more geological/geographical data. What I am asking for from folks like yourself who make have better information, is an objective valuation of exactly what such data is really worth, and, particularly, not a lot of defensiveness and evasion. Of course, as an American, I'm not a european taxpayer, so I personally didn't put any money into Huygens, but I am interested in determining if the european taxpayers got their moneys worth of science. $2.5 million per data minute (compared to less than $800.00 per data minute for Cassini and the Mars Rovers) seems so significantly outside the range of other missions that it should be a point of concern for any european taxpayer group. As recipients of european tax dollars, ESA staff should be happy to demonstrate in quantitative ways what sort of ROI they are providing to their benefactors, if only to keep the money coming for future missions. > > >Okay, then my previous calculation makes Cassini's average cost per > >data minute on a par with the Mars Rovers. If so, such a valuation > >demolishes the idea of "Better, Faster, Cheaper" that Sean O'Keefe > >promoted for many years: The Mars Rovers are no cheaper, in data > >dollars, than Cassini, which is arguably the most 'expensive' space > >probe in history. > > Cassini was never part of the 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions, > that initiative came ten years after Cassini's conception. I never said it was. In fact, if you actually read what I said, you would see that I was contrasting Cassini against the Mars Rovers, which were part of the 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions. Based on data dollars, there does not seem to be a higher ROI on 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions than on big budget missions like Cassini. However, contrasting the Mars Rovers against Huygens, there is a significant difference of several magnitudes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 17 00:54:47 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:54:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unintended consequence In-Reply-To: <20050116024746.26024.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050117005447.93855.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yeah, a 'pill' in liquid form. Mike Lorrey wrote:Sure there was 'oral contraception' in those days, even the nuns taught it to catholic girls so they could save their virginity until marriage. It just took a little more work than swallowing a pill.... --- Ned Late wrote: > Someone here mentioned sexual matters in '50s. It's true oral > contraception wasn't widely available in that decade, nor was > abortion. The upside was-- just as one example-- AIDS did not exist > in the '50s. So a couple could go to a drive-in and not worry about > anything more dangerous than VD or pregnancy. > This is the sort of unintended consequence that keeps conservatives > in business. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do?> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 17 20:32:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:32:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050117203254.45904.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- mike99 wrote: > The results of this research may indicate why so few people are > rushing to support transhumanism, with its promises of large future > payoffs for investing in present-day research and such endeavors as > cryonics. The emotional brain centers predispose people to favor > immediate gratification. > Delayed gratification requires thought and self-discipline, neither > of which is over abundantly represented in observed human behavior. True, but this should not interfere with what should be a significant number of people signing up for cryonics contracts late in life when mortality is evident, for the same reasons people take up activities of such improbable payoffs such as praying.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 21:42:05 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:42:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <200501171906.j0HJ6KC04529@tick.javien.com> References: <200501171906.j0HJ6KC04529@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:06:31 -0700, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org Terry W. Colvin wrote: > IMO it's an astounding engineering as well as scientific feat. I heartily agree, and would love to see more missions like this. The whole > thing appears to have been virtually flawless, this being especially > impressive since it was a first (and only) attempt. The sad part is we will > not likely see a followup for many years especially now that Dubya has his > heart set on exorbitant low return stuff like the manned Mars & Moon > mission. I'm not so sure I agree here. I hate Dubya as much as the next reasonable person, but the Vision for Space Exploration is something that should've been done a long time ago. NASA needs a concrete goal like it did in the 60s to solidify its efforts, and exploration is a terrific goal. Exploration is a step towards eventual settlement, which I'm a big fan of. A permanent, largely self-sustaining lunar base (one of the VSE's goals) is something I look forward to seeing. Also, while I'm a big fan of space science, I'd argue that it should fall under the scope (and have the same sorts of competitive funding as) the NSF, rather than NASA. I think I've mentioned them before here, but I really hope that t/Space (a company headed by David Gump, Gary Hudson, and Burt Rutan) gets the final VSE contract. There's some info on them here: http://www.transformspace.com/Background.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T/Space Their plan call for NASA to act as more of a customer for launch services, with private enterprise taking more and more of a role over time. Eventually private enterprises role would be large enough that the market would be self-sustaining, allowing space endeavours to truly blossom. > If I were King, I would can the manned flights, including the ISS, > and concentrate on what NASA (and everyone else) does best. I partially agree -- I think that that the best thing to do would be to dump the shuttle and ISS ASAP. However, I think it's important that NASA at least provide a market demand for orbital human spaceflights, and help forge the way for an eventual dominance by private enterprise. From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 17 22:38:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:38:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tsunami ghosts Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050117163528.019a3400@pop-server.satx.rr.com> From the Manila Times : http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2005/jan/15/yehey/top_stories/20050115top5.html < Saturday, January 15, 2005 Mass trauma blamed for Thai ghost sightings PATONG, Thailand: A second surge of tsunami terror is hitting southern Thailand, but this time it is a wave of foreign ghosts terrifying locals in what health experts described as an outpouring of delayed mass trauma. Tales of ghost sightings in the six worst-hit southern provinces have become endemic, with many locals saying they are too terrified to venture near the beach or into the ocean. Spooked volunteer body searchers on the resort areas of Phi Phi Island and Khao Lak are reported to have looked for tourists heard laughing and singing on the beach only to find darkness and empty sand. Taxi drivers in Patong swear they have picked up a foreign man and his Thai girlfriend going to the airport with all their baggage, only to then look in the rear-view mirror and find an empty seat. > etc. Obviously these are time travelers coming back to record the horrid events, sport among the ruins, etc. Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 03:25:56 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... Message-ID: <20050118032556.63771.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> They all tried very seriously to alter the status quo, and look at what happened to them. But don't think of their fates as murders, no, think of how the innocent bullets were whizzing through the air, minding their own business, when they were so rudely interrupted by the bodies of those famous men. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 18 04:18:08 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:18:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... References: <20050118032556.63771.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c4fd14$c0ef2d90$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" > They all tried very seriously to alter the status quo, > and look at what happened to them. I'm not certain I get what you are saying here. Surely there have been many people who have altered the status quo, and who did not get killed. Observe: A contemporary of MLK - civil rights pioneer James Forman, who died just a week ago - was one of the people who "changed the course of mighty rivers." Cancer finally killed him at age 76, not a bullet. And there have been many like Forman, before and since - fearless, uncompromising, compassionate people with integrity and vision. And since you mentioned JFK - what did he ever do to alter the status quo? (In most important ways he was the personification of the status quo, testing which way the wind blew before commiting his thoughts towards the "right path."). Olga From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 06:16:18 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:16:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <00ba01c4fa98$e8894620$8e893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050118061618.62384.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > On Friday, January 14, 2005 1:52 PM Adrian Tymes > wingcat at pacbell.net > wrote: > > Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks > > out for me, much more than the science > > data. It takes *that much* to get a lander > > onto Titan? That's way more than we > > should have to use. We need to make > > space exploration far more efficient. > > Yes, and we already know part of the way to do this: > privatize as much > of it as possible. The other part is to punish many > of those involved > in creating the efficiencies in the first place. Surely you mean "inefficiencies", no? (And I'm not sure punishing the creators would work as well as punishing those who sustain the inefficiencies, in light of better options.) From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 18 10:05:10 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:05:10 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pravda on de Grey and the quest for immortality Message-ID: <470a3c5205011802055fa858ca@mail.gmail.com> Pravda Online; Contemporary scientists are still trying to unveil the mystery of immortality: they are working with mitochondria - so-called power plant of a cell, which generates power owing to the adenosine triphosphoric acid synthesis. The works in this direction are being conducted most actively in several countries of the globe, in Russia and England first and foremost. Russian academician, Vladimir Skulachev, from the Institute of the Physicochemical Biology of the Moscow State University has made the biggest progress on the way to realize the biggest dream of the mankind. "Old age is virtually an illness. It must be cured like cancer. If I cure a person of his old age, I will cure him of cancer too, age diseases. English geneticist from the University of Cambridge, Dr. Aubrey de Grey, works with mitochondria too. The scientist believes that the life span of a human being will reach a thousand and even more years. De Grey chairs the SENS project at Cambridge (Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence), which studies all possibilities to solve the epoch-making problem. The project's first priority is connected with the restoration of seven major types of molecular and cellular damage. De Grey said that he would need ten years to develop a solution for mice and another ten years to bring the technology into the world of humans. http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/14828_immortality.html From neptune at superlink.net Tue Jan 18 13:15:12 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:15:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan References: <20050118061618.62384.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002e01c4fd5f$bebd1640$97893cd1@pavilion> On Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:16 AM Adrian Tymes wingcat at pacbell.net wrote: >> Yes, and we already know part of the way >> to do this: privatize as much of it as possible. >> The other part is to punish many of those >> involved in creating the efficiencies in the >> first place. > > Surely you mean "inefficiencies", no? Yes, my bad. > (And I'm not sure punishing the creators would > work as well as punishing those who sustain > the inefficiencies, in light of better options.) Both. If the creators of them are punished as well as the sustainers, then in the future people will be less likely to create new ones -- or to take actions that might. Imagine legislators, bureaucrats, and lobbyists being ordered to pay for the inefficiencies they are involved in creating or sustaining. Cheers! Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/ From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 14:04:08 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:04:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> References: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <41ED1758.2090905@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: >> >>> http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm >> >> >> Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: >> >> 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic wave >> of any reasonable coherence? > > > HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun mix of science, > paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It is difficult to > separate firm ground from swamp. > It has quite an interesting history, and the military has not been short of ideas of how to turn the science into technology. >> (Sorry, the world's >> satellite networks *AREN'T* up to the task. Neither >> are more conventional broadcast networks. And that's >> assuming either one could be coopted by one central >> organization, and assumption that is easily shown >> false if you take a look at the wide range of >> organizations that actually operate the various >> satellites and transmitters.) >> >> 1a. Specifically, how to do the above with the >> exceedingly high precision necessary for neural >> induction? >> >> 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through >> induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague >> "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that seems to >> be about as far as anyone's gotten? > > > Not quite. There may have been work done in this area as part of > MKULTRA and other projects that came out due to FOIA. > > http://educate-yourself.org/mc/listofmcsymptoms05jun03.shtml > http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/anti-personal-electromagnet-weapons.htm > Any work by the military that showed promise would still be classified. >> >> 3 and most importantly. Even if this were feasable, it >> would be a rather unextropian act. The ends do not >> justify the means; eradicating all who oppose us (say, >> by reprogramming them away) is very unlikely to >> actually lead to the society that we desire, as >> demonstrated by the results of comparable approaches >> (genocide, eugenics) in the past. (A case could be >> made that it's theoretically possible to achieve what >> we want by these methods, if one studies why the >> previous attempts failed. But that is irrelevant >> here, since this just proposes a new method of >> controlling people without addressing why trying to >> control people - regardless of exact method - has >> failed.) >> >> My initial take is that stuff like this has no place >> on the extropy-chat list...though I might be wrong. >> > > It would be advisable to be aware of such things. We could easily > become victims of such otherwise. > > Question: If you had a friend about to commit suicide and you have > exhausted all means of persuasion, are you justified in stopping them, > against their will, from taking their live? Are you justified if > you know that later they will sincerely thank you if you successfully > intervene? > > Not an easy question to answer, is it? Or is it? > > Now suppose that it wasn't a friend about to commit suicide but > humanity itself willfully headed for almost certain destruction? > If you thought you could do something, even if against what all the > world said it wanted, even against your own principles of the > boundaries ruled by respect for the free will of others, would you? > > I hope that is an easier question. But it is a question. > Well, having said that may I ask again - anyone in the UK interested in replicating some of this in large field conditions (roomsize for starters)? -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 14:31:35 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:31:35 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: References: <200501171906.j0HJ6KC04529@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41ED1DC7.5020704@neopax.com> Neil Halelamien wrote: >>If I were King, I would can the manned flights, including the ISS, >>and concentrate on what NASA (and everyone else) does best. >> >> > >I partially agree -- I think that that the best thing to do would be >to dump the shuttle and ISS ASAP. However, I think it's important that >NASA at least provide a market demand for orbital human spaceflights, >and help forge the way for an eventual dominance by private >enterprise. >_______________________________________________ > > There's only one thing that is needed - cheap access to space. IMO fully reusable launcher development should be a priority. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From neptune at superlink.net Tue Jan 18 14:33:58 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:33:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments Message-ID: <009401c4fd6a$bfec1f60$97893cd1@pavilion> http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 17:07:21 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:07:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <009401c4fd6a$bfec1f60$97893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the supposed scientists who were so intolerant of his suggestion that the subject should be studied AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women into the sciences. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 18 18:02:54 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:02:54 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's exactly what I noticed. And his report of what his own daughter did was dismissed/derided. As it's only anecdotal it's surely not scientific, but perhaps it is indicative? How can this Ms. Hopkins justify taking such personal offense at a report of an actual event that she'd walk out of a conference? My own take on this male/female discrepancy is that frequently girls *put down* other girls who are smart. It is very discouraging. There's a point in schooling where some girls have only derision for any girl who studies, does well, excells at math or science. It takes a pretty tough little girl to simply ignore that as it's often the very pretty/popular girls who are doing the putting-down. ... depressing examples from my daughter's experiences omitted ... ... maybe she should have been tutored or home schooled. :( Regards, MB On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Technotranscendence wrote: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html > > > > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the supposed scientists who > were so intolerant of his suggestion that the subject should be studied > AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women into the sciences. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 18:17:25 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:17:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Technotranscendence > wrote: > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html > > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the > supposed scientists who > were so intolerant of his suggestion that the > subject should be studied > AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women > into the sciences. Science is science, and it's been shown that when you take the sociology out (for example - though possibly not the best example - by separating girls from boys so the girls do not defer to the boys and "play dumb"), female students are just as capable of learning science at male students. Ergo, the favored means is to reform the sociology to remove this effect. The basis and effectiveness of that are up to debate, but that appears to be the basis for criticizing other means. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 18:27:48 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:27:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050118182748.99799.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- MB wrote: > My own take on this male/female discrepancy is that > frequently girls > *put down* other girls who are smart. It is very > discouraging. There's > a point in schooling where some girls have only > derision for any girl > who studies, does well, excells at math or science. > It takes a pretty > tough little girl to simply ignore that as it's > often the very > pretty/popular girls who are doing the putting-down. There's more than a bit of that on the male side, to be sure, but apparently not as much as on the female side. One wonders if they might have the same root cause. From jonkc at att.net Tue Jan 18 18:48:21 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:48:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> "Adrian Tymes" > it's been shown that [.] , female students are just as capable of > learning science at male students. That could be correct, I really don't know, but the above statement is so politically correct it makes me suspicious of its veracity. The extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians also makes me wonder, but like I said I really don't know. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jan 18 19:22:44 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:22:44 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:48 PM 1/18/2005 -0500, John K Clark wrote: > The extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians also makes me > wonder, but like I said I really don't know. The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me wonder if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male scientists. No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jan 18 19:37:34 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:37:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66905B3C-6988-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> His suggestion was off the wall and exploded (so I thought) long ago. It is not the first time he has made strange remarks. There is no "scientific" question involved here. - s On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Technotranscendence wrote: > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html >> > > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the supposed scientists who > were so intolerant of his suggestion that the subject should be studied > AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women into the sciences. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 20:01:34 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:01:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20050118200134.15692.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > "Adrian Tymes" > > it's been shown that [.] , female students are > just as capable of > > learning science at male students. > > That could be correct, I really don't know, but the > above statement is so > politically correct it makes me suspicious of its > veracity. Political correctness, like all memesets of its ilk, contains at least a grain of truth. (The problem being the incorrect things that get built from that grain.) Complete and total nonsense tends not to gain as large a foothold as nonsense mixed with truth. > The > extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians > also makes me wonder, > but like I said I really don't know. Great mathemeticians of either gender are extraordinarily rare, to the point that conclusions based on the distribution seem unreliable due to the small sample size. Even if there is a biological factor, though, the likely gains from reforming society appear to so overwhelm the possible gains from any solution based on gender factors as to make the latter close enough to zero as makes no practical difference. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 18 20:15:31 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:15:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... References: <20050118032556.63771.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000701c4fd14$c0ef2d90$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <005e01c4fd9a$78966690$6fb22643@kevin> What do the bullets have to do with it? They aren't just "innocent", but they were inanimate objects at rest that remained at rest until a person applied an outside force and made them deadly. I too am confused about your point. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olga Bourlin" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... > From: "Ned Late" > > > They all tried very seriously to alter the status quo, > > and look at what happened to them. > > I'm not certain I get what you are saying here. Surely there have been many > people who have altered the status quo, and who did not get killed. > > Observe: A contemporary of MLK - civil rights pioneer James Forman, who > died just a week ago - was one of the people who "changed the course of > mighty rivers." Cancer finally killed him at age 76, not a bullet. And > there have been many like Forman, before and since - fearless, > uncompromising, compassionate people with integrity and vision. > > And since you mentioned JFK - what did he ever do to alter the status quo? > (In most important ways he was the personification of the status quo, > testing which way the wind blew before commiting his thoughts towards the > "right path."). > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sentience at pobox.com Tue Jan 18 20:06:47 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:06:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41ED6C57.70007@pobox.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 01:48 PM 1/18/2005 -0500, John K Clark wrote: > >> The extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians also makes >> me wonder, but like I said I really don't know. > > The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me > wonder if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male > scientists. > > No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. Last I heard, someone was claiming that the means were the same for the male and female distributions, but the male variance was higher. Which I suppose makes sense, viewed as a cost/payoff for an evolutionary gamble. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 13:40:08 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:40:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41ED11B8.8090501@neopax.com> Aubrey de Grey wrote: >That's nothing -- check out the accompanying commentaries: > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp > > > Sounds like Britain's view of hitech when I was at research labs in the late 70s. The 'suits' could never take seriously anything us 'geeks' were talking about because we wore T shirts and didn't mix with the 'right people' at the right clubs. I wrote a proposal in 1977 for an 'electronic book' for the GEC Hirst Research Centre. Only found out years later that Alan Kay beat me to it. Anyway, even then the place was called by New Scientist 'The graveyard of good ideas'. Pinned that cutout on the notice board, but it disappeared sharpish. The rest is the hitech history of the UK. 30yrs on, it seems the US is following in our footsteps. The place where things are going to happen is China. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 13:48:41 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:48:41 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] A reflection on the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <200501150110.50362.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> References: <200501150110.50362.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <41ED13B9.1000007@neopax.com> Diego Caleiro wrote: >This is a paper I did sometime ago about thoughts on the simulation argument, >It looked prettier in the open office than in mail format, but thats not the >big point about it > I'm not a phylosopher, I'm not even in university, so there might be some >phylosophical or logical lacks in this reflection, Still, I'd like to hear >from some of you what do you think about it. > > >Diego (Log At) > > > >Why I think we are probably not living in a computer simulation > >... >Why I think we are in the real world > > As Nick Bostrom said, the possibility of us being in a personal world (as he >says, a me-simulation) is much smaller than the possibility of us being in a >complete world, but, as I argued before, it is rather improbable that this >world is the best conceived by our other level gods, that created us. Some >philosophers have once defended god existence and goodness based on the idea >that we coudn't be able to feel it, but this is the best world there may be. >Most of the people don't think so, and I don't think our posthuman gods would >create an enviroment like earth, with so many problems for most of us and >solutions for few. > The possibility of us being the creation of a egoistic posthuman, whose >biggest passion is to observe and judge us, is possible, still, it is >improbable that an egoistic superintelligence would be concerned with that. > Conclusion: If we are to assume that a darwin based society developed >post?human? superintelligence, then this superintelligence is probably >altruistic, and therefore, if we are all senscient beings, we would live in a >world with less sadness, hunger etc.. than the world we beleive we live in. >That is why I think this is more probably the real world, the fundamental >level than a secondary one. > > > There is one very good reason to run sims. In a truly posthuman world there may well still be a requirement to bring new intelligences into the society. Since the bulk of the action in a posthuman soc is likely to be in simulation itself it makes sense to 'evolve' new citizens. And one of the best sims (IMO) would be one where normal sim Humans progress through the Singularity (as they did in the real history) to become those posthuman 'new citizens'. It allows those who run the sim to get a good look at their new citizens and weed out the undesirables. I rather doubt that Saddam would make the grade, for example. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 21:00:46 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:00:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <55CCC348-6793-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050118210046.49161.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Jan 12, 2005, at 11:01 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > "Chemistry" != "alchemy", but "chemistry" = > "modern > > alchemy". Note the "modern", which can be read as > > "has origins in". > > Not with a lot of justification it can't. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=modern 2. a) Of or relating to a recently developed or advanced style, technique, or technology: modern art; modern medicine. > I am perfectly content with the original word. It doesn't matter if you're happy with it. You know what you meant. The point of communication - the entire, sole point - is what other people think you meant. Create an incorrect impression, and you fail to communicate what you seek to communicate. It doesn't matter if you believe it, or if you want it to be true; it's like the laws of physics in that respect. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 21:26:11 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:26:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: > > > > 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic > wave > > of any reasonable coherence? > > HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun > mix of science, > paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It > is difficult to > separate firm ground from swamp. >From what I can tell, HAARP studies phenomena generated by nature, on a scale far larger than any organization capable of hiding its activity has nearly the resources to duplicate. (Sorry, even trillions of dollars is not nearly enough to turn Jupiter into a second sun, or even to cover the entire Earth with a very good simulated night sky - as good as what has been observed - to conceal what's really going on up there.) Plus, what's generated isn't very coherent. > > 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through > > induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague > > "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that > seems to > > be about as far as anyone's gotten? > > Not quite. There may have been work done in this > area as part of > MKULTRA and other projects that came out due to > FOIA. > > http://educate-yourself.org/mc/listofmcsymptoms05jun03.shtml > http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/anti-personal-electromagnet-weapons.htm Where those create more precise effects (stuff like "generate a sensation of noise" being of equal imprecision, and too vague for what's necessary here), either induction was not used or induction was paired with another mechanism that would be far more difficult to mass-produce than electromagnetic waves. > It would be advisable to be aware of such things. > We could easily > become victims of such otherwise. The ones that exist, yes. This doesn't exist except as figments of imagination, and shows no sign of even possibly becoming more real this side of the Singularity. It's one thing to have an open mind - to accept the possibility of things not proven, but not disproven either. It's another to abandon any attempt to distinguish what is or could be from what is provably impossible. > Question: If you had a friend about to commit > suicide and you have > exhausted all means of persuasion, are you justified > in stopping them, > against their will, from taking their live? Are > you justified if > you know that later they will sincerely thank you > if you successfully > intervene? > > Not an easy question to answer, is it? Or is it? In any real such situation, the answer would seem to depend on the situation. I.e., in various cases that comply with what has been described, either "yes" or "no" could be justified as an answer depending on the rest of the case. > Now suppose that it wasn't a friend about to commit > suicide but > humanity itself willfully headed for almost certain > destruction? If > you thought you could do something, even if against > what all the world > said it wanted, even against your own principles of > the boundaries > ruled by respect for the free will of others, would > you? If I ever came across such a situation, I would seriously re-examine my data. In all such situations that I have heard about (real situations, anyway, where someone perceived this to be the case; ignoring fiction like The Matrix), the reality turned out to be other than what it appeared to be. Ergo, if I perceived this, I would have strong historical evidence that I was misperceiving things. Example: I'm currently working on a nonpolluting power source that, in the unlikely event that things work out as best as they possibly can, could make oil-based power obsolete overnight. Some people could convince themselves that humanity wants to destroy itself through environmental disaster brought on by excessive use of fossil fuels. That perception would create the problem you state above. However, it is not actually the case that people want to destroy the world. They want the power, but if an alternative can be developed that grants that power without damaging the Earth, and all other factors are similar enough, it would likely be quickly accepted precisely because it does not damage the Earth. There are certain moral questions where the answer is neither "yes" nor "nor" nor even "depends", but rather something like "error: situation does not exist; if apparently encountered, attempting to resolve the situation would not be the correct action to take". From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 18 21:50:54 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:50:54 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> I just read a new story Sunday from my local paper that contradicts these ideas. It stated that girls were kicking the arses of boys in all areas of acedemics right now including math and science. It also stated that a higher percentage of girls are getting high school diplomas and college degrees. Here is the text of the article. I usually wouldn;t post the entire text of an article, but I can't find the link. I saved a copy of the article because I thought it was interesting. Here it is: ____________________________________________________________ Girls are making the grades Educators looking at why girls outperform boys in school By STACI HUPP The Indianapolis Star January 16, 2005 INDIANAPOLIS - What once was a playground taunt has turned out to be true: Girls are better than boys. Girls have eclipsed boys on state and national tests. They are more likely to stay in school and to graduate, and they demand less special attention than boys, data show. That marks a dramatic turn from the time when schools were urged to nurture girls' brains instead of their baking skills. School officials and experts now fear the effort to pull girls up to an equal footing had an unintended consequence. "Boys are lagging, and in my view we are seeing the tip of a very serious national problem," said Judith Kleinfeld, a psychology professor at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks. A U.S. Department of Education study noted the academic edge that boys once held has vanished. For the past two years in Indiana, girls in third, sixth and eighth grades have edged out boys on statewide exams in every category except third-grade math. In that subject, girls and boys have been in a dead heat. Nationally, girls already have eclipsed boys in reading and English, but their lead appears to be growing. They also have caught up to boys in math and science classes and are more likely to earn a college diploma within six years, the federal Education Department's study found. The big question with the performance gap is why. Early studies showed that girls mature faster than boys, develop verbal skills earlier and are conditioned to behave better than boys. Today, some researchers link a gender gap in the classroom to a lack of male role models. The number of men who pick teaching careers is at a 40-year low nationally at a time when more children grow up without fathers. And some scientists believe decades of feminist-driven attention on girls has paid off. Colleges offer girls-only scholarships and summer programs for high school students, and after-school programs nurture younger girls like Blaze Stahl, of Indianapolis. Blaze, 9, foundered when she started school. She ignored assignments and goofed off, in part because she found the schoolwork too easy. Blaze's mother signed her up for Girls Inc., a nonprofit after-school and summer program. Now, the Indianapolis Public School 56 third-grader has skipped ahead to fourth- and fifth-grade classes. "I feel more comfortable being myself at Girls Inc. because there are so many bullies at school," Blaze said. "I'm not afraid to act crazy at Girls Inc." Ben Ledbetter, principal at Greater Clark County's New Washington Middle-High School, grew up in an era when boys and girls studied biology in separate classrooms. Now, he has taken a page from his past to improve the odds for boys by separating them from girls in key classes. The split includes reading and math classes, which are at the heart of state achievement tests. "We had some concern that girls were completing assignments much more rapidly and much more thoroughly" than boys, Ledbetter said. The school district's third-grade girls topped the boys by 5 percentage points on this year's Indiana Statewide Testing for Educational Progress-Plus. In sixth grade, the girls' lead grew to 14 percentage points, a disparity that carried over into the eighth-grade level. In math, girls edged out boys by 2 percentage points in each grade. "It seems that our girls are really blossoming and most of the boys are, too, but that still seems to be an area where we have the most struggles," said Tonja Brading, an English teacher at New Washington. "It was like, 'Why do we have this little core group of boys who are underachieving?"' In the fall, girls and boys in Grades 6, 7 and 8 were separated in key classes such as English, math and science. The children mixed during lunch, study halls and afternoon classes. The teachers don't need data to tell them the single-sex classes have made a difference. Boys who traditionally would have turned away from literary heroines in Brading's class now are more likely to read novels like "Rules of the Road," whose author and main character are female. "The boys will talk about a line in a poem that they wouldn't necessarily have talked about had girls been in the room," Brading said. "We really think this is working." ________________________________________________________________________ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 21:37:51 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:37:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118200134.15692.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050118213751.39559.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Great mathemeticians of either gender are > extraordinarily rare, to the point that conclusions > based on the distribution seem unreliable due to the > small sample size. Really? What is the distribution of gender to IQ? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Tue Jan 18 22:21:34 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:21:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments Message-ID: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> Damien Broderick wrote: > The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me wonder > if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male scientists. > > No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. I would note two things: 1.) Really brilliant people are not brilliant because they were trained. You cannot be trained to be brilliant, as the very definition generally asserts abilities that are far beyond what can be obtained by mere training. And most of the really brilliant people I can think of in history had little or unextraordinary training in the fields their brilliance is noted in. 2.) Math and science are only related insofar as science often uses math. Scientists and mathematicians have very different thought processes. cheers, j. andrew rogers From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Jan 18 22:44:44 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:44:44 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <009401c4fd6a$bfec1f60$97893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <007501c4fdaf$4e40a4e0$b8232dcb@homepc> > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html I can't see much in this news article that's actually news. It would be interesting and of course it could have practical consequences for policy etc if real sex differences exist (and I suspect they do, on average, to some extent), but if "the Harvard president" actually said anything substantive about his *reasons* for thinking there are differences the reporter didn't seem to see fit to pass them on. Perhaps the female Harvard graduate was justified in being offended and in walking out of his talk, perhaps not. The answer to that turns on what he actually said. This is more like gossip than news. Its like we're invited to take a side in a battle where the very thing missing is the only thing that would justify taking a side - the truth, i.e. what "the Harvard president" actually said, and more importantly his evidence and reasons for saying it. Brett Paatsch From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 22:48:16 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:48:16 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41ED9230.1050306@neopax.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > >>On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >> >>>Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: >>> >>>1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic >>> >>> >>wave >> >> >>>of any reasonable coherence? >>> >>> >>HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun >>mix of science, >>paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It >>is difficult to >>separate firm ground from swamp. >> >> > >>From what I can tell, HAARP studies phenomena >generated by nature, on a scale far larger than any >organization capable of hiding its activity has nearly >the resources to duplicate. (Sorry, even trillions of >dollars is not nearly enough to turn Jupiter into a >second sun, or even to cover the entire Earth with a >very good simulated night sky - as good as what has >been observed - to conceal what's really going on up >there.) Plus, what's generated isn't very coherent. > > The official line: http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html "During active ionospheric research, the signal generated by the transmitter system is delivered to the antenna array, transmitted in an upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a small volume a few hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in diameter over the site." and the unofficial list of military interests http://www.haarp.net/ The military says the *HAARP* system could: * Give the military a tool to replace the electromagnetic pulse effect of atmospheric thermonuclear devices (still considered a viable option by the military through at least 1986) * Replace the huge Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) submarine communication system operating in Michigan and Wisconsin with a new and more compact technology * Be used to replace the over-the-horizon radar system that was once planned for the current location of HAARP, with a more flexible and accurate system * Provide a way to wipe out communications over an extremely large area, while keeping the military's own communications systems working * Provide a wide area earth-penetrating tomography which, if combined with the computing abilities of EMASS and Cray computers, would make it possible to verify many parts of nuclear nonproliferation and peace agreements * Be a tool for geophysical probing to find oil, gas and mineral deposits over a large area * Be used to detect incoming low-level planes and cruise missiles, making other technologies obsolete -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jan 18 23:08:43 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:08:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118170500.01a78f18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >"Boys are lagging, and in my view we are seeing the tip of a very serious >national problem," said Judith Kleinfeld, a psychology professor at the >University of Alaska in Fairbanks. >[...] >"We had some concern that girls were completing assignments much more >rapidly and much more thoroughly" than boys, Ledbetter said. Isn't that an interesting way to put it? Not: `"We've had some concern that boys were completing assignments much more slowly and much less thoroughly" than girls, Ledbetter said.' What's *wrong* with this planet? Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 23:18:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:18:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> Message-ID: <20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I just read a new story Sunday from my local paper that contradicts > these ideas. It stated that girls were kicking the arses of boys in > all areas of acedemics right now including math and science. It also > stated that a higher percentage of girls are getting high school > diplomas and college degrees. What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high school, the feminazi NEA is persecuting boys who refuse to act like girls with testicles. There are, as a result, now more women than men in college. However, women are still underrepresented in engineering and sciences. They come to par only when you start counting things like sociology as a 'science'. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 23:28:48 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:28:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <41ED11B8.8090501@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050118232848.88752.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Aubrey de Grey wrote: > > >That's nothing -- check out the accompanying commentaries: > > > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp > > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp > > > Sounds like Britain's view of hitech when I was at research labs in > the late 70s. I had an exchange of email with the editor. He responded to my characterization of his attitude toward transcendance, when I said, "I'm sorry, but you are inappropriately appropriating transcendance for your own personal, narrow, political/religious agenda. Transcendance happens where people find it, wherever they find significantly different and/or self-altering meaning in life. Finding it in real world technology seems far more non-fictional, rational, and real, than in the way many people find it, in that anthology of historical fiction known as.... The Bible." He replied, "Yes, I am saying that merely because some one says an experience is "transcendental" does not really make it so. To be changed by an experience doesn't mean we have transcended ourselves in any meaningful way. At least that's my opinion. By the way, you're mistaken if you think (as I believe you hint) that I am a Christian or politically right wing. On the contrary, I am an atheist and fairly conventionally liberal. As I think I say in my column, "We are alone with ourselves."" He couldn't reply to the question of, if he is an atheist, and doesn't believe in anything religious, he could claim in any way that someone else's experience wasn't transcendental "enough". Enough for who? I noted that I regarded atheists as much orthodox religionists as any christian, given the paradox of proving a negative. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Jan 19 00:07:34 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:07:34 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Bayesian - no biscuit ! (was A New Year's gift for Bayesians) Message-ID: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> [I'm back from holidays having done some reading relevant to some recent discussion on this list. Along with part of Popper's _Realism and the Aim of Science_, I reread a little Penguin book on some of Feynman's lectures entitled _The Meaning of It All_ containing a chapter entitled the Uncertainty of Science. In his, imo, well written, and enjoyable essay A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation, http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/technical.html Eliezer writes (page 32 of 36 when I printed it out) : "Imagine that you wake up one morning and your left arm has been replaced by a blue tentacle. The blue tentacle obeys your motor commands - you can use it to pick up glasses, drive a car, etc. How would you explain this hypothetical scenario? Take a moment to ponder this puzzle before continuing." So I did imagine it. I imagined it in good faith, and I imagined it consistent with a spirit of exploration and good will built that Eliezer had established through the early part of his essay. Where Eliezer had placed "spoiler space", I stopped reading and I wrote down my explanation. (I'd been reading with pen in hand and making critical notes in the margin.) It seemed to be fair and scientific to provide an answer *before* reading on so as not to contaminate the experiment. ) I wrote (and I quote): "I'd "explain" it provisionally as some surprising organisation of people had entered my house and replaced my arm whilst I slept with technology I didn't know existed. I'd be bewildered. Frightened even. But I'd not think "magic" had occurred". And then, with the heightened curiosity of one who has escalated their commitment I went back to see what Eliezer the Bayesian, Eliezer the spreader-of-analogical-probability-clay-mass would have done. And he'd written this. "How would I explain the event of my left arm being replaced by a blue tentacle? The answer is that I wouldn't. It isn't going to happen." Email perhaps can't convey my exact reaction to that but here's the comments I wrote in the margin. ---- "No. No. No. You cheated Eliezer. You cheated ! You can't assign a probability of zero ! * Not fair!! You said it did happen. Your being dishonest with the data to say its not going to happen." ---- Most of what I know of Bayesian reasoning I know as a result of reading Eliezer's two essays on it. So perhaps if my understanding of Bayesian reasoning or inference is wrong I can escape by blaming Eliezer for it :-) I suspect, on the basis of those two essays that I am a Bayesian although I didn't know I was and so I haven't been calling myself one. The merit I see in the Bayesian approach is that it manages uncertainties more carefully and consistently then most people do intuitively. [And boy does the world need that]. So, it's 2005. I'm a Bayesian. And as long as I'm wearing metaphorical teeshirts I'm also a Bright. Regards, Brett Paatsch * Eliezer's assigning a probability of zero to observed facts however unlikely those facts might have been a priori is the reason for my heading this post Bad Bayesian - no buscuit. PS: Happy new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 19 00:25:15 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:25:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com><012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118170500.01a78f18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000c01c4fdbd$596760d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Damien Broderick" >>"Boys are lagging, and in my view we are seeing the tip of a very serious >>national problem," said Judith Kleinfeld, a psychology professor at the >>University of Alaska in Fairbanks. >>[...] >>"We had some concern that girls were completing assignments much more >>rapidly and much more thoroughly" than boys, Ledbetter said. > Isn't that an interesting way to put it? Not: `"We've had some concern > that boys were completing assignments much more slowly and much less > thoroughly" than girls, Ledbetter said.' Yes, interesting. Reminds me of how some females complain about the fact that on average women are left "home alone" earlier to face widowhead and old age and all the vicissitudes of life ... all by themselves. Oh, the unfairness of it. (Men - you simply must contain yourselves and stop dying so early, hear?) > What's *wrong* with this planet? Again, I respectfully submit, we - modified worms* that we are - simply aren't ready for prime time. (*"modified worms" is a term I heard recently being used in a lecture by Richard Dawkins to describe humans.) Olga From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 19 00:40:07 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:40:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> <20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118183136.019efec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:18 PM 1/18/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high >school, the feminazi NEA Just for the sake of civility, how about we adopt a moratorium for a year or so on cheap gibes like `feminazi', `hoplonazi' and other playground terms of abuse? >is persecuting boys who refuse to act like >girls with testicles. Amazing morphological news: boys *are* girls with testicles. Presumably Mike meant `act like boys *without* testicles'. As I dimly recall my own ancient schooldays, boys who did well at mathematics and science were mocked by other, usually more swaggering, boys as sissies, fairies, ball-less wonders, and so on. Certainly, advanced skill at mathematics--or learning of any kind outside of fixing cars--was not seen as evidence of testicles. Damien Broderick From reason at longevitymeme.org Wed Jan 19 00:53:49 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:53:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists Message-ID: <200501181853.AA1719861566@longevitymeme.org> I should note, for those who haven't noticed, that Aubrey de Grey made a response that is now up on the Technology Review website: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/wo/wo_degrey0101805.asp Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 02:32:18 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:32:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... In-Reply-To: <005e01c4fd9a$78966690$6fb22643@kevin> Message-ID: <20050119023218.97907.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It was a joke referring to famous people who get shot for their beliefs. You know, as in 'accidentally-on-purpose'. This is not to say conspiracy is necessarily involved, but how convenient. Remember when the Pope was shot? Well, it wasn't just a whim on the part of the shooter. There are conspiracies, real and imagined. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > What do the bullets have to do with it? They aren't > just "innocent", but > they were inanimate objects at rest that remained at > rest until a person > applied an outside force and made them deadly. I too > am confused about your > point. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 02:39:49 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:39:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... In-Reply-To: <000701c4fd14$c0ef2d90$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050119023950.4564.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> James Forman wasn't nearly as well known as King. King came out publicly against the Vietnam War, then months later he is shot. Did Forman denounce the war? If he did, was his opposition to the war widely publicised? > Observe: A contemporary of MLK - civil rights > pioneer James Forman, who > died just a week ago - was one of the people who > "changed the course of > mighty rivers." JFK started the Apollo Program, and pushed for the Civil Rights Bill-- passed soon after he was killed. > And since you mentioned JFK - what did he ever do to > alter the status quo? > (In most important ways he was the personification > of the status quo, > testing which way the wind blew before commiting his > thoughts towards the > "right path."). > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aiguy at comcast.net Wed Jan 19 03:23:53 2005 From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:23:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Access to to Digital Aristotle Training Material Message-ID: <200501190324.j0J3OAC14174@tick.javien.com> Does anyone here know of any links to, or have access to the 70 pages of chemistry input material and test questions used by the contestants in Paul Allen's Digital Aristotle project. I would like to see what what percentage of the material can be mapped into my AI pattern matching language and at what cost. Since the it was documented that the contestents spent $10,000 per page encoding the knowledge it would seem to be a good benchmark to measure my tool against. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 19 03:25:08 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:25:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <41ED9230.1050306@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050119032508.64339.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > The official line: > http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html > "During active ionospheric research, the signal > generated by the > transmitter system is delivered to the antenna > array, transmitted in an > upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an > altitude between 100 > to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a > small volume a few > hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in > diameter over the > site." > > and the unofficial list of military interests > http://www.haarp.net/ Ah. Okay, thank you for the clarification. (This is why I am careful to disclaim what I am not certain of.) It still does not appear to be coherent enough to precisely target parts of the human brain, though. (Communication and selective spectrum denial, while requiring some control over the wavelengths generated, do not have nearly the required precision - and that's assuming a wavelength could be found that only the desired part of the human brain responds to, thus eliminating the need to precisely target that region.) From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 19 03:48:01 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:48:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... References: <20050119023950.4564.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <08f301c4fdd9$ad09d5d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" > James Forman wasn't nearly as well known as King. King > came out publicly against the Vietnam War, then months > later he is shot. Did Forman denounce the war? If he > did, was his opposition to the war widely publicised? Forman was an intellectual and an atheist, and therefore did not fit in with the stereotypical image of a "safe" and malleable religious black person. This was also one of the main reasons he did not get as much press. Bayard Rustin was also a historically giant figure in the civil rights movement (in fact, he was the one who was the principal organizer of the 1963 civil rights march), but he was gay, and had a white lover to boot. These were the main reasons he did not get as much press. And so it goes ... Olga From tankdoc at adelphia.net Wed Jan 19 05:03:03 2005 From: tankdoc at adelphia.net (tankdoc) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:03:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin><20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118183136.019efec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000f01c4fde4$28589000$ba33e944@firstbase> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments > At 03:18 PM 1/18/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >>What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high >>school, the feminazi NEA > > Just for the sake of civility, how about we adopt a moratorium for a year > or so on cheap gibes like `feminazi', `hoplonazi' and other playground > terms of abuse? > >>is persecuting boys who refuse to act like >>girls with testicles. > > Amazing morphological news: boys *are* girls with testicles. > > Presumably Mike meant `act like boys *without* testicles'. As I dimly > recall my own ancient schooldays, boys who did well at mathematics and > science were mocked by other, usually more swaggering, boys as sissies, > fairies, ball-less wonders, and so on. Certainly, advanced skill at > mathematics--or learning of any kind outside of fixing cars--was not seen > as evidence of testicles. > > Damien Broderick This is my third or fourth post in 15 years - on and off - reading this list. While I can understand the offence taken by the terms above I have to agree completely with the premise. Simply watch the message sent by schools that abhor competition, or even the concept of winners since it implies losers. Watch the message the American Media sends in its television commercials, the male is most always the dumb, uninformed or just plain stupid partner. Simply reverse the gender role assigned in most all American TV commercials and ask yourself, would this add be run under those conditions. Sorry if Ive dumbed down the list conversation, it simply hit a hot button of mine. Jerry Imbriale From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jan 19 05:42:26 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:42:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration Message-ID: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> Terry forwards: > Their plan call for NASA to act as more of a customer for launch > services, with private enterprise taking more and more of a role over > time. Eventually private enterprises role would be large enough that > the market would be self-sustaining, allowing space endeavours to > truly blossom. I don't see how this could happen, for how is one supposed to make money out of space travel? There is a small market for firing very rich people, celebrities and the like, into space for fun. (This market is likely to shrink considerably the first time a well-known celebrity re-enters the earth's atmosphere shuttle-like as a collection of glowing embers. Just imagine the interplanetary law-suits that will follow. And of course, in a perfect world some celebrities ought to be fired into space. One-way....) One could imagine such people holidaying (uncomfortably) on a moon base, where one could sell them souvenirs, postcards, air, etc. But there is no money to be gained - at least in the short to medium term - from the pursuit of knowledge which underlies the sending of unmanned missions to Saturn, Titan and so on. What else could we get from these places? Even if they turned out to have interesting minerals, it wouldn't be cost-effective to ship them in bulk back to earth. (There go all those SF films about miners in space....) At the risk of drifting towards the political, the pursuit of pure knowledge is one of those things that the free market doesn't do very well. (There are others, as anyone who has ridden on both Britain's privately-owned trains and France's state-owned trains can testify...) Handing over space to the private realm would lead to a concentration on those things that might make money - holidays in orbit etc - over those that clearly won't, e.g. can we land something on Pluto just to see if it has any atmosphere? Dr Jerry Goodenough University of East Anglia England -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 19 08:00:34 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:00:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> References: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050119080032.GF9221@leitl.org> On Tue, Jan 18, 2005 at 10:42:26PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > Terry forwards: > > > Their plan call for NASA to act as more of a customer for launch > > services, with private enterprise taking more and more of a role over > > time. Eventually private enterprises role would be large enough that > > the market would be self-sustaining, allowing space endeavours to > > truly blossom. > > I don't see how this could happen, for how is one supposed to make money > out of space travel? There is a small market for firing very rich Maybe you've heard of space based communication? Intelligence gathering, prospection. Tourism even, maybe. Or phased-array photovoltaics platforms, with realtime beamforming (but launches have to get ridiculously cheap for this to be cost-effective -- terrestrial launches, of course). If you can bring a package to LEO, I can easily show you how to bring a somewhat smaller package to Luna surface. But the thing is it doesn't have to make money short-term, if you're a driven person with deep pockets. A lot of dot com nouveau riches seem to fit that profile. And if that's the only thing to come out of dot bomb (magically transmuting fool's gold into worthwhile ventures), it's good in my books. > people, celebrities and the like, into space for fun. (This market is > likely to shrink considerably the first time a well-known celebrity > re-enters the earth's atmosphere shuttle-like as a collection of glowing > embers. Just imagine the interplanetary law-suits that will follow. And > of course, in a perfect world some celebrities ought to be fired into > space. One-way....) > > One could imagine such people holidaying (uncomfortably) on a moon base, I could imagine quite a few people doing quite a few interesting things with several ~100 kg remote-control robotic packages on lunar surface a decade downstream, but that's just me. (Maybe we should use some intracranial hard vacuum in dem celebrities for industrial processes down here?) > where one could sell them souvenirs, postcards, air, etc. But there is > no money to be gained - at least in the short to medium term - from the > pursuit of knowledge which underlies the sending of unmanned missions to > Saturn, Titan and so on. What else could we get from these places? Even > if they turned out to have interesting minerals, it wouldn't be > cost-effective to ship them in bulk back to earth. (There go all those > SF films about miners in space....) A person looking to Hollywood for technical inspiration must be... Come on, this isn't hard. Hard vacuum, small escape velocity, teleoperation, bootstrapping of autonomous industry, launch costs approach zero. Exponentially self-amplifying industry in near Earth space. Clean energy, free food, free habitats, computation effectively approaching infinity (I'd call a cubic mile of personally owned buckytronics effectively infinite, some people here would disagree). > At the risk of drifting towards the political, the pursuit of pure > knowledge is one of those things that the free market doesn't do very The free market can make a number of people very, very well off. By statistics alone a few of them with the right interests will do something interesting. Bureaucracies are only very rarely doing something interesting, and are usually dissipating metric tons of money to that purpose. > well. (There are others, as anyone who has ridden on both Britain's > privately-owned trains and France's state-owned trains can testify...) > Handing over space to the private realm would lead to a concentration on > those things that might make money - holidays in orbit etc - over those > that clearly won't, e.g. can we land something on Pluto just to see if > it has any atmosphere? There are several people obsessed with Kuiper and Oort objects. Industrial base on Luna will give you lighthours-lightdays within months of travel time (packages, not people). As a side effect. > Dr Jerry Goodenough > University of East Anglia > England -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 19 08:42:53 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:42:53 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A reflection on the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <41ED13B9.1000007@neopax.com> References: <200501150110.50362.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41ED13B9.1000007@neopax.com> Message-ID: <1BE86D38-69F6-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> On Jan 18, 2005, at 5:48 AM, Dirk Bruere wrote: >> >> > There is one very good reason to run sims. > In a truly posthuman world there may well still be a requirement to > bring new intelligences into the society. Since the bulk of the action > in a posthuman soc is likely to be in simulation itself it makes sense > to 'evolve' new citizens. And one of the best sims (IMO) would be one > where normal sim Humans progress through the Singularity (as they did > in the real history) to become those posthuman 'new citizens'. It > allows those who run the sim to get a good look at their new citizens > and weed out the undesirables. I rather doubt that Saddam would make > the grade, for example. > I don't know about that. I rather doubt that it would be useful toward evolving fresh intelligences to have them live only one simulated lifetime and that's it, win or lose. Also I would bet that an intelligence with some strength and determination, although certainly screwed up in other ways, presents a bit more to work with than say a total non-entity. But, not being post-human myself, I plead ignorance except to point out that it is extremely unlikely that our own sensibilities and opinions would be even close to the criteria used. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 19 09:00:58 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 01:00:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2005, at 1:26 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> Question: If you had a friend about to commit >> suicide and you have >> exhausted all means of persuasion, are you justified >> in stopping them, >> against their will, from taking their live? Are >> you justified if >> you know that later they will sincerely thank you >> if you successfully >> intervene? >> >> Not an easy question to answer, is it? Or is it? > > In any real such situation, the answer would seem to > depend on the situation. I.e., in various cases that > comply with what has been described, either "yes" or > "no" could be justified as an answer depending on the > rest of the case. > Yes, exactly. >> Now suppose that it wasn't a friend about to commit >> suicide but >> humanity itself willfully headed for almost certain >> destruction? If >> you thought you could do something, even if against >> what all the world >> said it wanted, even against your own principles of >> the boundaries >> ruled by respect for the free will of others, would >> you? > > If I ever came across such a situation, I would > seriously re-examine my data. In all such situations > that I have heard about (real situations, anyway, > where someone perceived this to be the case; ignoring > fiction like The Matrix), the reality turned out to be > other than what it appeared to be. Ergo, if I > perceived this, I would have strong historical > evidence that I was misperceiving things. > And if your data holds? On our present course, especially if various anti-technology forces prevail, humanity will most likely perish. I think a lot of us see this. The question then is what level of means are justified if humanity itself is at stake. If we continuously resist concluding that is what the stakes are we won't make so many errors or go off tilting at windmills. On the other hand, if the danger is indeed that deep we had best at least admit to it even if we haven't much of a clue as to how to make survival much more likely. > Example: I'm currently working on a nonpolluting power > source that, in the unlikely event that things work > out as best as they possibly can, could make oil-based > power obsolete overnight. Some people could convince > themselves that humanity wants to destroy itself > through environmental disaster brought on by excessive > use of fossil fuels. That perception would create the > problem you state above. Cool work! It is not that humanity "wants to" destroy itself so much as it is simply locked into patterns that are very likely to lead to its destruction. Whether it "wants to" or not isn't really too relevant. The way we largely killed off nuclear power, haven't developed other alternatives sufficiently and are largely quite wasteful in the way we use fossil fuels and energy combined with the fact of eventual Peak Oil and decline of oil production says that we are auguring in on energy without some disagreement on how fast we are doing so. By itself the failure to fully build out some alternative to fossil fuels could bring our civilizations to ruin. At least the wars and deprivations and their offshoots would be likely to. Of course our energy habits are just one of many patterns that could be pointed out as quite detrimental. > > However, it is not actually the case that people want > to destroy the world. They want the power, but if an > alternative can be developed that grants that power > without damaging the Earth, and all other factors are > similar enough, it would likely be quickly accepted > precisely because it does not damage the Earth. > Again, it does not matter what they want. If they do not have sufficient understanding of consequences, actual costs, alternatives and the means (including sufficient freedom for lockstep from other factors) then the danger is heightened. It will be a very bumpy ride even in the best scenarios. We not only want energy we must have it to continue, much less move forward. All those other factors are a great deal of where the problem lies. > There are certain moral questions where the answer is > neither "yes" nor "nor" nor even "depends", but rather > something like "error: situation does not exist; if > apparently encountered, attempting to resolve the > situation would not be the correct action to take". Error: Situation does exist in that we are headed for destruction. If we do not resolve the situation then humanity is doomed. A meme that says if we ever come to this conclusion we must prove our sanity by disowning the conclusion as mistaken will certainly get us killed. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 19 10:24:59 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 02:24:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> References: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <5F4FCD90-6A04-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:42 PM, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > Terry forwards: > >> Their plan call for NASA to act as more of a customer for launch >> services, with private enterprise taking more and more of a role over >> time. Eventually private enterprises role would be large enough that >> the market would be self-sustaining, allowing space endeavours to >> truly blossom. > > I don't see how this could happen, for how is one supposed to make > money > out of space travel? There is a small market for firing very rich > people, celebrities and the like, into space for fun. (This market is > likely to shrink considerably the first time a well-known celebrity > re-enters the earth's atmosphere shuttle-like as a collection of > glowing > embers. Just imagine the interplanetary law-suits that will follow. And > of course, in a perfect world some celebrities ought to be fired into > space. One-way....) > You have a point. We will not get very far selling low orbit thrill rides. > One could imagine such people holidaying (uncomfortably) on a moon > base, > where one could sell them souvenirs, postcards, air, etc. But there is > no money to be gained - at least in the short to medium term - from the > pursuit of knowledge which underlies the sending of unmanned missions > to > Saturn, Titan and so on. What else could we get from these places? Even > if they turned out to have interesting minerals, it wouldn't be > cost-effective to ship them in bulk back to earth. (There go all those > SF films about miners in space....) > Without knowledge we would have no place at all in space and no hope of ever going there or utilizing it. Knowledge has manifold rewards other than hard currency. There is a super-abundance of very pricey materials in space. The point though is largely not to ship them back to earth except some of the pricier ones to purchase things one can't yet manufacture off planet and to repay the investors many, many times over. But most of the material should be used in space and various non-earth bodies to build a real space presence and society. That ore it made no sense to ship back to earth is very nice to have available to build a large scale space-dock or super station. Getting there from here is the immediate trick. Until there is substantial infrastructure in space there is not a good reason, even with much lower launch costs, to maintain a large number of humans in space. The infrastructure is pricey to throw up from the ground or even the moon. The moon also doesn't have as much variety of material as is needed. We need a way to get our hands on space resources without thousands of humans in space. Otherwise we are in a hopeless Catch-22. Robots and telepresence devices might be workable for many tasks of building the needed infrastructure and gathering some tradable commodities. Near earth asteroids would be a better target for diversity of materials and multiple usages than the moon perhaps. > At the risk of drifting towards the political, the pursuit of pure > knowledge is one of those things that the free market doesn't do very > well. (There are others, as anyone who has ridden on both Britain's > privately-owned trains and France's state-owned trains can testify...) > Handing over space to the private realm would lead to a concentration > on > those things that might make money - holidays in orbit etc - over those > that clearly won't, e.g. can we land something on Pluto just to see if > it has any atmosphere? As opposed to leaving space to a bunch of battling politicians as we largely have for the last fifty years? I think we have seen where that gets us. If we can actually make money or even break even (essential for long term space viability) then we have a chance of having a large space presence. Without it I see no real chance at all short of an attack by (of necessity inept) aliens giving us a sufficient kick in the butt. - samantha From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 10:25:39 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:25:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Access to to Digital Aristotle Training Material In-Reply-To: <200501190324.j0J3OAC14174@tick.javien.com> References: <200501190324.j0J3OAC14174@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:23:53 -0500, Gary Miller wrote: > > Does anyone here know of any links to, or have access to the 70 pages of > chemistry input material and test questions > used by the contestants in Paul Allen's Digital Aristotle project. > They explain their data, etc. in several pdfs. (extracts below) See: and You can download their software from: and you could try an email enquiry to info at projecthalo.com ---------------------- The domain chosen for the Pilot was a subset of AP chemistry, namely stoichiometry and equilibrium reactions, spanning about 70 pages of a college-level chemistry textbook (Brownet al.2003). Brown, T.L., H.E. LeMay, B.E. Burstenand J.R.Burdge 2003. Chemistry: The Central Science. New Jersey: Prentice Hall. This domain was chosen to assess several important features of KR&R technology without taking on the entire problem of AI. In particular, this domain requires complex, deep reasoning, but avoids some areas of KR&R, such as reasoning with uncertainty and spatial reasoning. Table 1 lists the topics in the chemistry syllabus. Topics included: stoichiometry calculations with chemical formulas; aqueous reactions and solution stoichiometry; and chemical equilibrium. Background material was also identified to make the selected chapters more fully self-contained. Subject Chapters Sections Pages Stoichiometry: Calculations with 3 3.1 - 3.2 75-83 Chemical Formulas Aqueous Reactions and 4 4.1- 4.4 113 -133 Solution Stoichiometry Chemical Equilibrium 16 16.1- 16.1 613 -653 Sections 2.6-2.9 in chapter two provide detailed information. Chapter 16 also requires the definition of moles, which appears in section 3.4 pp 87-89, and molarity, which can be found on page 134. The form of the equilibrium expression can be found on page 580, and buffer solutions can be found in section 17.2. ------------ BillK From sentience at pobox.com Wed Jan 19 11:40:30 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 06:40:30 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <41EE472E.4020809@pobox.com> J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > > 1.) Really brilliant people are not brilliant because they were > trained. You cannot be trained to be brilliant, as the very definition > generally asserts abilities that are far beyond what can be obtained by > mere training. And most of the really brilliant people I can think of > in history had little or unextraordinary training in the fields their > brilliance is noted in. Definitions have no power over reality. We could not alter reality, at colleges or elsewhere, by writing lines in dictionaries. Whatever is asserted to be true "by definition" usually isn't, and it certainly isn't true "by definition", unless the domain be pure math. To address the empirical issue (a state of affairs having nothing to do with the definitions used to describe it), I think smart people could be trained to be brilliant, but you'd have to be brilliant to invent the training, since no such training presently exists. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From hkhenson at rogers.com Wed Jan 19 13:21:59 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 08:21:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118213751.39559.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118200134.15692.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050119081414.0330dec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 01:37 PM 18/01/05 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > > Great mathemeticians of either gender are > > extraordinarily rare, to the point that conclusions > > based on the distribution seem unreliable due to the > > small sample size. > >Really? What is the distribution of gender to IQ? I don't have time right now to find the reference, but my memory of gender vs IQ is that while the centers of the distributions are just about identical, the spread for men is a significant fraction of a standard distribution wider than that for women. You would expect this because of the XX XY human sex determination, but I seem to remember that the amount was judged to be higher than could be accounted for by the genetics. For most purposes, the wider distribution doesn't have much effect. But when you are looking at the population of those out more than 6 standards from the center (both directions) they are something like 80% plus male. Keith Henson From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 14:26:10 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:26:10 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aubrey de Grey on Technology Review Message-ID: <470a3c520501190626328a1dcb@mail.gmail.com> KurzweilAI: The article [referring to the Technology Review articles and editorial against AdG] has created quite a buzz, particularly in the Technology Review forums, and Aubrey de Grey's letter in response to the article is available on the website. www.kurzweilai.net/news/frame.html?main=/news/news_single.html?id%3D4167 Technology Review: Aubrey de Grey begins " Jason Pontin, Technology Review's Editor-in-Chief, and Brad King, Technology Review's Web editor, have invited me to respond to the trio of articles about me and my work that appear in the February 2005 issue of Technology Review with this online-only piece, in addition to a short "letter to the editor" from me that will appear in the print edition", and concludes "Comment on February's editorial is superfluous. Pontin is as desperate as Nuland and the Technology Review staff are to put the real issues out of his mind, but unlike them he does not take the trouble to cloak this in careful words; the editorial speaks for itself all too well. What can we conclude, observing three such egregious departures from normal logical standards by educated adults? I can identify only one explanation: most of society is in a pro-aging trance. This is no surprise: after all, aging is extremely horrible and until a few years ago could indeed be regarded as probably immutable for a very long time indeed. Hence, a reasonable tactic was to put its horror out of one's mind, however absurd the logical contortions required. Just as stage hypnotists' subjects provide sincere and lucid justifications for any false statement that they have been instructed is true, so most of us (not having dared to consider in detail whether aging might recently have come within our technological range) energetically defend the indefinite perpetuation of what it is in fact humanity's primary duty to eliminate as soon as possible. Some people find stage hypnotists highly entertaining. I don't -- not any more, at least." http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/wo/wo_degrey0101805.asp?p=1 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 19 14:52:19 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:52:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <20050119032508.64339.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050119032508.64339.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41EE7423.5060306@neopax.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > >>The official line: >>http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html >>"During active ionospheric research, the signal >>generated by the >>transmitter system is delivered to the antenna >>array, transmitted in an >>upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an >>altitude between 100 >>to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a >>small volume a few >>hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in >>diameter over the >>site." >> >>and the unofficial list of military interests >>http://www.haarp.net/ >> >> > >Ah. Okay, thank you for the clarification. (This is >why I am careful to disclaim what I am not certain >of.) > >It still does not appear to be coherent enough to >precisely target parts of the human brain, though. > > Persingers expts indicate that wholesale immersion in the field is sufficient to alter behaviour. We're not talking about complex information transfer, merely a slightly selective screwing up of some brain functions. >(Communication and selective spectrum denial, while >requiring some control over the wavelengths generated, >do not have nearly the required precision - and that's >assuming a wavelength could be found that only the >desired part of the human brain responds to, thus >eliminating the need to precisely target that region.) > > > Also, it's not wavelength that matters particularly, but modulation. Persingers work was done in the hunderds of Hz using pulse trains that mimicked firing paterns found in major areas of the brain at field strength of less than 10% of geomagnetic. I'm not claiming that HAARP is set up to hit the global population with such effects. However, if I were looking for that kind of wide area technology non-linear plasma pumping in the ionosphere at the poles might be a good place to start, esp given the energy released in these regions during solar events. However, we are only likely to hear of military failures rather than successes eg the idea of using it as a missile shield. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 19 15:00:27 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:00:27 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: References: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41EE760B.6060701@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Cool work! It is not that humanity "wants to" destroy itself so much > as it is simply locked into patterns that are very likely to lead to > its destruction. Whether it "wants to" or not isn't really too > relevant. The way we largely killed off nuclear power, haven't > developed other alternatives sufficiently and are largely quite > wasteful in the way we use fossil fuels and energy combined with the > fact of eventual Peak Oil and decline of oil production says that we > are auguring in on energy without some disagreement on how fast we are > doing so. By itself the failure to fully build out some alternative > to fossil fuels could bring our civilizations to ruin. At least the > wars and deprivations and their offshoots would be likely to. Of > course our energy habits are just one of many patterns that could be > pointed out as quite detrimental. I think there's a certain parochialism involved with this view. The USA is not the be all and end all of 'our civilisation'. I can certainly see the USA coming to a rather unpleasant implosive event through an antitech stance. However, I do not see Europe or (especially) China going that way. Perhaps what we are seeing (speeded up) is the process of an empire enterering its decadent phase shortly before it is suplanted by the next (IMO China). For example, the Chinese have not given up on nuclear power. Indeed, they are pushing ahead at a rate that is unthinkable in the West, esp with regard to designing and deploying pebble bed reactors on a ten year timescale. Some projections I've seen suggest that the Chinese might have as many as 300 up and running by 2030. The Chinese also do not have any 'moral' qualms that can be traced to a JudeoXian outlook that will hold them back when it comes to biotech, plus they have an aging population as we do. Unlike us however, they are not in a position to expamd their populations by importing cheap labour. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 15:41:28 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 07:41:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <000c01c4fdbd$596760d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050119154128.84505.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > Yes, interesting. Reminds me of how some females complain about the > fact that on average women are left "home alone" earlier to face > widowhead and old age and all the vicissitudes of life ... all by > themselves. Oh, the unfairness of it. (Men - you simply must > contain yourselves and stop dying so early, hear?) We die early because we want to. It's why so many men die within 6 months after retiring. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 19 15:48:44 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:48:44 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] antiepilepsy drugs lengthen worm lifespan Message-ID: <20050119154844.GC9221@leitl.org> http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/sci;307/5707/193a BIOMEDICINE: As the Worm Ages: Epilepsy Drugs Lengthen Nematode Life Span Ingrid Wickelgren Although pharmacists have proven medications for ailments as varied as migraines and bacterial infections, they have little to offer in the fight against aging other than unproven remedies. But new evidence suggests that the right prescription for longevity may already be hidden behind the pharmacy counter. Geneticist Kerry Kornfeld and his colleagues at Washington University in St. Louis, Missouri, report on page 258 of this issue that a class of antiseizure drugs markedly extends the life span of the roundworm Caenorhabditis elegans. The scientists screened 19 classes of medications prescribed for other uses for potential longevity effects. "These compounds are approved for human use, so they have [molecular] targets in humans," says Kornfeld, although he cautions that there is no evidence yet that the anticonvulsants he tested slow aging in people. Because these drugs act on the neuromuscular systems of both humans and worms, the finding also hints at a direct link between the neuromuscular system and the aging process, says geneticist Catherine Wolkow of the National Institute on Aging in Baltimore, Maryland. Furthermore, the data indicate that although the drugs' mechanisms of action partly involve molecular pathways already known to govern aging, those pathways tell less than the whole story. "The work opens up the possibility that there may be new targets not yet explored that affect aging and neuromuscular function," says Wolkow. "That's a pretty important finding." With a life span of a few weeks in the lab, C. elegans is a favorite subject for longevity studies. Since the early 1990s, researchers have linked mutations in dozens of worm genes to extensions of the creature's lives. Given all the drugs on the market, Kornfeld speculated that at least one of them was likely to retard aging or promote longevity by affecting those gene targets. Figure 1 Staying alive. Anticonvulsant drugs promote longevity in roundworms like this one. CREDIT: THE NATIONAL HUMAN GENOME RESEARCH INSTITUTE So about 4 years ago, Kornfeld's graduate student Kimberley Evason began exposing separate groups of 50 worms to various drugs, from diuretics to steroids, at three different dosages. Most of the compounds the worms ate off their petri dishes had toxic effects. After 8 months of negative results, Evason tested the anticonvulsant ethosuximide (Zarontin). A moderate dose, she found, extended the worm's median life span from 16.7 days to 19.6 days, a 17% increase. Lower doses had a lesser effect, and higher doses were toxic. Evason then discovered that two related anticonvulsants also lengthened worms' lives, one of them by as much as 47%. By contrast, a chemically related compound that does not have antiseizure activity had no similar effect. That is "nice evidence" that the compounds' ability to extend life span is related to their effectiveness as anticonvulsants, says geneticist Javier Apfeld of Elixir Pharmaceuticals in Cambridge, Massachusetts. The drugs are thought to control seizures in people by acting on certain neuronal calcium channels. Exactly how the drugs extend life span in worms is unknown, although they seem to stimulate the nematode neuromuscular system. Kornfeld's team discovered that the drugs affect two types of neurons: those that govern egg laying, leading to earlier release of eggs, and those that control body movement, making the worms hyperactive. Unlike many of the genetic mutations that affect worm longevity, the drugs don't act primarily through the worm's insulin-like signaling system, the St. Louis group revealed. For example, treatment with two of the anticonvulsants still lengthened the lives of worms with life-curbing mutations in an insulin-pathway gene. "We think the nervous system effects are more complicated than simply regulating insulin signaling," Kornfeld says. The next step is to test whether the drugs have any antiaging effects on higher organisms, such as flies and mice. "The nervous system might have a central function in coordinating the progress of an animal through its life stages, leading ultimately to degeneration," Kornfeld speculates. Still, he adds, "it's very early days for understanding the connection between neural function and aging." -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Jan 19 16:03:33 2005 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:03:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <41ED6C57.70007@pobox.com> References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41ED6C57.70007@pobox.com> Message-ID: On 18 Jan 2005, at 21:06, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Last I heard, someone was claiming that the means were the same for > the male and female distributions, but the male variance was higher. > Which I suppose makes sense, viewed as a cost/payoff for an > evolutionary gamble. This is essentially correct according to SAT scores, although I think the mean for males is very very slightly higher in math, and v. v. slightly lower in verbal scores. Because top universities select from the very extreme of the tail of the distribution it tends to favor males candidates much more than females, but the *average* ability of men and woman are not much different. In fact innate differences may be vanishingly small when compared to other environmental factors. Interestingly I remember being told that math departments at top institutions also had a disproportionate number of left-handers. The thought was that there was a connection between asymmetries in brain development and mathematical ability. Male fetal development might actually be more prone to stresses in the womb (on many measures we are the weaker sex) and that's causing the greater variations in male math ability. best, patrick From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jan 19 16:04:40 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:04:40 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Adjunct Faculty: Serfs on the Knowledge Plantation Message-ID: <41EE8518.CE45F668@mindspring.com> < http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/knowledge-serfs.html > [The Dark Side of Adjunctia] "Adjunct Faculty: Serfs on the Knowledge Plantation This essay actually takes the form of a quasi-Socratic dialogue... with myself. I really believe adjunct faculty are, in many ways, becoming a new undercaste for the information society. Why are you complaining? You have a job where you only work three hours a week." ...more at URL... -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From jonkc at att.net Wed Jan 19 16:23:25 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:23:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com><012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <004201c4fe43$3aa851f0$c0fe4d0c@hal2001> "Damien Broderick" Wrote: > The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me wonder > if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male scientists. > No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. Damien, if I read you correctly you are quite certain about this matter, I'm not. Is it really inconceivable the innate sexual differences could have something to do with mathematical ability; is the idea really so stupid that somebody deserves to get fired for expressing it? Historically I don't think any female mathematician deserves to be put into the exalted category of "GREAT". Sophie Germain was probably the best and she was without a doubt an excellent mathematician, but I don't know anyone who would claim that she had anywhere near the bandwidth of a Gauss or a Newton or a Archimedes or a Euler or a or a Fermat or a Turing or a Galois or a Godel. Now perhaps the reason for this phenomenon is an unknown sociological factor that has somehow remained constant in every culture on the planet for 2500 years, or perhaps there is another reason. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 19 17:14:27 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:14:27 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118200134.15692.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119110035.01a0fec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:21 AM 1/19/2005 -0500, Keith wrote: >For most purposes, the wider distribution doesn't have much effect. But >when you are looking at the population of those out more than 6 standards >from the center (both directions) they are something like 80% plus male. Suppose that at 6 sigmas--IQ circa 190 or 200--this is correct (assuming, implausibly perhaps, that cultural interaction with genetic variation has no bearing at all on the expression of those alleles). Here's how the NYT summarizes the offending remarks: It does seem simply true that mothers in our culture are less likely than father to be career monomaniacs. It seems very likely that `discrimination', an unwieldy catch-all term, does play a role (otherwise girls would not have caught up so easily with boys in school). The question then is whether innate sex differences *at the 5 or 6 sigma level*--of mental ability, concentration, creativity and motivation--could explain why `so few women were on the science and engineering faculties'. Obviously, if the test of becoming a professor were whether a candidate is taller than 6 foor 5 inches, most profs would be men. But if the height test were less extreme, the excess of males might be sharply reduced. In the case of IQ and other salient abilities, even this analogy fails, since women and men have the same means. How smart and driven are most professors at such universities? Most of those I've met have been quick and smart, but not spectacularly so. But then my experience with Ivy League universities is sadly limited. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 19 18:18:41 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:18:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <004201c4fe43$3aa851f0$c0fe4d0c@hal2001> References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <004201c4fe43$3aa851f0$c0fe4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119120546.01a86ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:23 AM 1/19/2005 -0500, John K Clark wrote: >>The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me wonder >>if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male scientists. >>No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. > >Damien, if I read you correctly you are quite certain about this matter, I'm >not. Is it really inconceivable the innate sexual differences could have >something to do with mathematical ability; is the idea really so stupid that >somebody deserves to get fired for expressing it? Historically I don't think >any female mathematician deserves to be put into the exalted category of >"GREAT". John, it's a matter of emphasis. If the Harvard president was speaking only about mathematicians, or about those who are "GREAT", the extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians would be worth exploring in this way. I thought he was talking about the sex ratio of Harvard professors in the sciences. How many of those are "GREAT"? (Quite a few are highly gifted, no doubt. But then "GREAT" talents are probably pretty rare, even at Harvard.) I should add that in my experience a good many very brilliant people in the humanities have disabled themselves quite systematically during the last 20 or 30 years. The sheer quantity of arrant bullshit passing for thought among those aping French and German `thinkers' is truly dismaying. These people are *not* stupid; they are adroit at the jargon and the dazzling intellectual moves, as if they were playing some immensely complex and demanding game with no connection at all to the real world. It seems likely to me that the brainpower pissed away in this fashion could have been used just as effectively in mathematics. Damien Broderick From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 19 18:21:28 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:21:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] quick, /. is for grabs Message-ID: <20050119182127.GE9221@leitl.org> http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/01/19/1646239.shtml?tid=191&tid=14 -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 19 18:52:07 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:52:07 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Campaign Launched Against Dietary Supplements Message-ID: <003a01c4fe57$fae15de0$3d893cd1@pavilion> http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi34.html From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Wed Jan 19 19:34:06 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:34:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Campaign Launched Against Dietary Supplements In-Reply-To: <003a01c4fe57$fae15de0$3d893cd1@pavilion> References: <003a01c4fe57$fae15de0$3d893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <41EEB62E.4060206@humanenhancement.com> Don't start panicking yet. Michael Leavitt, the about-to-be new secretary of Health and Human Services, told the Senate committee going over his nomination that "he would not increase regulation of dietary supplements". Significantly, that's one of Orrin Hatch's pet issues (he being on the committee). Not coincidentally, Utah is a center for the dietary supplement industry. Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta Technotranscendence wrote: >http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi34.html >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 19 19:47:25 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:47:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Massive Object Calls Planet Discoveries into Question Message-ID: <00b801c4fe5f$b4221fe0$3d893cd1@pavilion> http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/heavy_objects_050119.html But there's always been an assumed error in the estimates of exoplanets via the "wiggle" technique used. This is because the plane of the exoplanet's orbit is unknown and estimates of the mass are based on assumptions able the angle of that orbit. This establishes, IIRC, lower limits on the mass, but not upper limits. So, I wouldn't be surprised if some purported exoplanets were much larger than the reported value by an order of magnitude and might be brown dwarf stars. What is needed is better and perhaps independent means of determining the orbital parameters and masses of alleged exoplanets as well as an understanding of how this might affect an exo-solar system. By the latter is meant whether having a supermassive object (much larger than Jupiter) in such a system has an effect on what else is in that system -- i.e., whether it means the super-Jupiter, brown dwarf, or whatever gobbles up so much mass that such systems would have much else. Of course, it could be that a lot depends on initial and boundary conditions here. E.g. on the former, maybe a system packed with lots of mass can form both a super-Jupiter/brown dwarf and lots of other planets, whereas another system might not. E.g. on the latter, perhaps a system where the super-Jupiter/brown dwarf forms relatively far from the primary will be stable enough to have other planets as well. Maybe the same goes for a super-Jupiter/brown dwarf very near the primary: planets might form in stable orbits around the barycenter of the primary/secondary system. One big problem now is that the data on exoplanets are so skewed because of reliance on mostly one method (there are two general methods, but the wiggle method is the most successful so far) of finding them, it's hard to be sure about what's likely -- other than making neat mathematical models that fit tiny amounts of data and hoping the conclusions drawn from them map onto reality. That's usually the path to error. Later! Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 20:01:26 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:01:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Re: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments Message-ID: <20050119200127.21565.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:40:07 -0600 > To: ExI chat list > From: Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over > comments > > At 03:18 PM 1/18/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high > >school, the feminazi NEA > > Just for the sake of civility, how about we adopt a moratorium for a > year or so on cheap gibes like `feminazi', `hoplonazi' and other > playground terms of abuse? Okay, come up with a non-loaded term that describes a feminist who believes in the chemical castration of all men. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Jan 19 20:15:44 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:15:44 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Adjunct Faculty: Serfs on the Knowledge Plantation In-Reply-To: <41EE8518.CE45F668@mindspring.com> References: <41EE8518.CE45F668@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050119151038.02f62f18@mail.gmu.edu> At 11:04 AM 1/19/2005, Terry W. Colvin wrote: >< http://www.fiu.edu/~mizrachs/knowledge-serfs.html > >[The Dark Side of Adjunctia] >"Adjunct Faculty: Serfs on the Knowledge Plantation This seems to me to dismiss the supply and demand story too quickly. Yes, if schools made classes smaller they would hire more teachers. But maybe students prefer the current package. There are thousands of universities, any of which could profit by switching to smaller classes, if in fact the additional value students placed on them was below their additional cost. Consider the analogy with movies. There are lots of actors making very little money because they hope someday to be a movie star. We could blame the studios for not making movies that use more actors. But the fact that studios consider this option and reject it suggests that they don't expect movie viewers to place a large enough additional value on such movies to pay for the additional cost. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From sentience at pobox.com Wed Jan 19 20:24:54 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:24:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! (was A New Year's gift for Bayesians) In-Reply-To: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> Brett Paatsch wrote: > > "Imagine that you wake up one morning and your left arm > has been replaced by a blue tentacle. The blue tentacle > obeys your motor commands - you can use it to pick up > glasses, drive a car, etc. How would you explain this > hypothetical scenario? Take a moment to ponder this > puzzle before continuing." > > So I did imagine it. I imagined it in good faith, and I imagined it > consistent with a spirit of exploration and good will built that Eliezer > had established through the early part of his essay. What about the spirit of cunning plots and mischief? For the life of me, I don't understand why people are so shocked to find that I have a goofy sense of humor; it's not as if my writings don't provide ample warning. Anyway... I'm trying to forge rationality into a new and more coherent art, reusing my l33t build-a-mind-from-scratch skillz to go beyond that accumulated handicraft of rationality passed down from generation to generation. Sometimes I may say things that shock a listener raised in the ancient tradition. > Where Eliezer had placed "spoiler space", I stopped reading and I > wrote down my explanation. (I'd been reading with pen in hand and > making critical notes in the margin.) Got a scanner? I wouldn't mind seeing a copy of the notes (if that wouldn't be too much effort for you). > It seemed to be fair and > scientific to provide an answer *before* reading on so as not to > contaminate the experiment. ) > > I wrote (and I quote): > > "I'd "explain" it provisionally as some surprising organisation > of people had entered my house and replaced my arm whilst > I slept with technology I didn't know existed. > > I'd be bewildered. Frightened even. But I'd not think "magic" > had occurred". I also wouldn't think "magic" had occurred. The magic hypothesis is rather vague without further specification, has tended to be disproved to the extent it has been historically specified, and makes no particular prediction of my arm being replaced with a tentacle. > And then, with the heightened curiosity of one who has escalated > their commitment I went back to see what Eliezer the Bayesian, > Eliezer the spreader-of-analogical-probability-clay-mass would have > done. > > And he'd written this. > > "How would I explain the event of my left arm being replaced > by a blue tentacle? The answer is that I wouldn't. It isn't going > to happen." > > Email perhaps can't convey my exact reaction to that but here's > the comments I wrote in the margin. > > ---- > > "No. No. No. You cheated Eliezer. You cheated! > > You can't assign a probability of zero!* > > Not fair!! You said it did happen. You're being dishonest with the > data to say it's not going to happen." Yep, that's a traditional response. :P I was hoping for pretty much that reaction from my readers, who I assumed would be traditional rationalists. The ideal of traditional rationality is that reality is allowed to tell you anything it wants, and you ought to shut up and listen - a stance arising from the sad human tendency to deny experimental evidence when it conflicts with something more valuable, like hope or authority. What's less commonly appreciated is that reality does *not* tell you just anything. Reality is *extremely constricted* in what it tells you, far more constricted than human storytelling. Truth is *not* stranger than fiction; humans just have a warped idea of what constitutes normality. The theory of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is conserved *most* of the time or *nearly all* of the time, it is that momentum is conserved *every single time*. It isn't a coincidence, we hypothesize, that conservation of momentum has been observed on every occasion thus yet where humanity has had opportunity to test it; it's because reality obeys this *absolute* rule, and this absolute rule has given rise to humanity's experience so far. Fallible humans may not dare to assign a probability of unity to the probability of conservation of momentum. Let us say we assign a probability of at most 90%, meaning that if we took ten contemporary physical hypotheses of equal status, we would expect at least one to be disconfirmed a millennium hence. But the hypothesis of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is conserved 90% of the time or even 99.9999% of the time. The hypothesis of conservation of momentum is that momentum is conserved 100.00000% of the time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis of "conservation of momentum" hypothesizes a state of affairs in which reality is *not* uncertain; a reality in which it is *absolutely certain* that momentum will be conserved on each and every occasion. The absolute character of physical law is foreign to human thinking. When humans make rules, there's always some unwritten give-and-take, some room for compromise. Even some atheists are shocked by the uncompromising attitude of radical foaming-at-the-mouth atheist hard-liners like myself, that there is *no* room for magic in the universe, that there is *no* separate magisterium reserved for thoughts "spiritual" or "religious" or "magical". And to those who claim that every belief system partakes of the transcedent, I say: Yes, every known culture divides the universe into a mundane realm of verifiable assertions and a sacred realm where sloppy thinking is allowed; but I'm saying that's a mistake. It is not a coincidence that every sacred hypothesis in human history which infringes on testability has been falsified. (And that is nearly all sacred hypotheses. The makers of such hypotheses lack the skill in rationality to make the hypotheses genuinely unfalsifiable. If they understood what constitutes Bayesian evidence, they wouldn't be constructing sacred hypotheses.) The most probable cause of humanity's experience so far is that we live in an *absolutely* mundane universe, mundane in every place and every time with 100.00000000000000% frequency. By asserting that conservation of momentum is *absolute*, the hypothesis sticks out its neck very far, and perhaps its neck will be sliced off by an experiment that violates conservation of momentum - but that's part of the point. If someone reports an experiment that violates conservation of momentum, you shouldn't chalk it down to a rare exception to the general rule (maybe someone negotiated the laws of physics down a little from their extreme and unreasonable position that momentum should be conserved on every single occasion). Experiments in cognitive psychology show that people fear air travel more than car travel. Why? Because airplane accidents are more frequently reported in the media. People's fear of a particular hazard is, generally, directly proportional to how often that hazard is reported in the media. Rare hazards that kill lots of people, like airplane crashes, tend to be reported in the media often; common small hazards go relatively unnoticed. This bias is only one of many experiments where people have been observed reason, not from the actual statistical frequencies of cases, but from the most attention-grabbing cases or most commonly reported cases. I think that part of the Way is trying to fit yourself to the real world, to the actual statistical frequency of events - deliberately thinking about the statistical likelihood of any sample case presented for your attention. No one in all human history has ever woken up with a functioning tentacle in place of their arm. You should have noticed that when I asked you to find an explanation for it. Yes, you were tricked. But it's a kind of trickery that goes on all the time and which I wish my readers to notice. For example, a thought experiment which postulates "zombies", people that behave exactly like people in this universe except that they are not conscious. (Why do they write papers on consciousness, including discussion of zombie experiments, if they are not conscious? For more on this see Dennett's "The Unimaginable Preposterousness of Zombies".) Or consider Damien Broderick's swift reaction to John C. Wright's attempt to quote Scrooge as an argument against skepticism. Damien didn't actually use my phrase "logical fallacy of generalization from fictional evidence", but I hope my writing had something to do with it. Occasionally I tread on the futile task of trying to persuade people not to buy lottery tickets, and they say something along the line of "Someone has to win!" or "You can't win if you don't play!" To which the answer is, "'Someone' will not be you. You will not win the lottery, period. I could make a hundred thousand statements of equal strength and not be wrong even once. I have *godlike* confidence that you will not win the lottery. Stop thinking about the pleasantness of the outcome, stop attending to this improbable event, because it will *not happen*." I ask people to stop buying lottery tickets, and they think, "But what if I would have won?", and imagine a thought experiment which, though physically possible - not *absolutely* impossible like violating conservation of momentum - has a probability so low that *they shouldn't be thinking about it while making the decision*. I would advise philosophers who indulge in thought experiments to consciously weight the emotional force of a thought experiment by the probability of that thought experiment, so that they may learn to live in this, our real world. Lottery players are led astray by attending to hypothetical events of great emotional intensity and extremely low probability. So too, John C. Wright was led astray by attending to a powerful and sympathetic experience, Scrooge's discovery of magic and the triumphant comeuppance of skepticism, which never actually happened. Nor will it happen, ever, in this our mundane universe. You won't wake up with a blue tentacle in place of an arm. Remember that, the next time someone asks you to imagine the impossible, or even the statistically improbable. You followed where I asked you to go, imagined what I asked you to imagine, and then found yourself betrayed. But next time you will notice when someone tries to lead you astray. Let us learn to live in this universe the way it really is, attending to the real frequency of events instead of the frequency of media reports of events. When someone asks us to imagine a magical outcome, let us forget all of the novels we have read, and all the movies we have seen, and all the hopes of our childhood, and remember that the observed frequency is zero. At the same time, let's not forget how ridiculous the 20th century would have sounded if you'd reported it to a 19th-century listener. But reality is very constrained in what kind of ridiculousness it presents us with. Not one of the ridiculous things that happened in the 20th century violated conservation of momentum. Oh... and if you *do* wake up with a tentacle in place of an arm... it's probably not because anyone snuck into your room; there must be a simpler, more likely explanation you didn't think of, or the event wouldn't have happened. When you have only a poor explanation, one that doesn't make things ordinary in retrospect, just admit you don't have an explanation, and keep going. Poor explanations very, very rarely turn out to be actually correct. A gang of people sneaking into your room with unknown technology is a poor explanation. Whatever the real explanation was, it wouldn't be that. If that's the best you can do, then "I wasn't expecting this and I have no clue why it happened or what will happen next" is a far superior answer. If I demanded that you produce a specific hypothesis anyway, you should have told me to stuff it. Why develop a habit of producing hypotheses that can't be right? What good will it serve you? In real life, sometimes we don't know what happened. Real life is where we will actually apply our l33t rationality skillz, so "I don't know" was the correct answer, taking the impossible experience as a fixed given. If I'd sworn that I really did possess some concrete reason to anticipate that you might *actually* wake up with a tentacle, and asked you to guess my good reason, "I don't know" would have been the correct answer (taking my rationality as a fixed given). > Most of what I know of Bayesian reasoning I know as a result of > reading Eliezer's two essays on it. If you enjoy the art, read more literature on it. "Rational Choice in an Uncertain World" is good. If you're ready for academic stuff, start with "Judgment Under Uncertainty". > So perhaps if my understanding > of Bayesian reasoning or inference is wrong I can escape by > blaming Eliezer for it :-) Whoa, I'm a highly atypical Bayesian. If you're judging Bayesian academia by me, that's, er, not a good idea. I did warn my readers that Technical Explanation would be controversial. > I suspect, on the basis of those two essays that I am a Bayesian > although I didn't know I was and so I haven't been calling myself > one. The merit I see in the Bayesian approach is that it manages > uncertainties more carefully and consistently then most people do > intuitively. [And boy does the world need that]. Human beings aren't designed as Bayesians (though our thoughts sometimes have Bayes-structure, which is why we work at all). The word "Bayesian" usually refers, not to someone who actually implements Bayesian principles (for that is humanly unattainable), but to someone who espouses Bayesian principles. I don't think you could be a Bayesian without knowing it, unless you had unwittingly demanded that people be principled about assigning prior probabilities, or some such stance which today is commonly known as "Bayesian". > So, it's 2005. I'm a Bayesian. And as long as I'm wearing metaphorical > teeshirts I'm also a Bright. > > Regards, > Brett Paatsch > > * Eliezer's assigning a probability of zero to observed facts however > unlikely those facts might have been a priori is the reason for my > heading this post Bad Bayesian - no buscuit. You can't assign a probability of 0.000000..., but you could theoretically assign a probability of 1e-100 if you think you can get away with it, because it isn't actually *zero* - the logarithm is minus a thousand decibels, but not actually negative infinity. 1e-100 is effectively zero, but there's a world of difference between effectively zero and actually zero. My point is that you should be wary of probabilities which are, *given* the dominant physical hypothesis, actually zero or effectively zero. If your explanation: "A secret organization of people entered my house and replaced my arm with a tentacle using unknown technology" doesn't make you anticipate (even just a little) waking up with a tentacle tomorrow in this our real world, then it's a poor explanation. For it is this, our real world, in which you must live. Nor should you bother trying to develop a better explanation. For in this, our real world, you will have no need of it. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 20:43:54 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:43:54 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Campaign Launched Against Dietary Supplements In-Reply-To: <41EEB62E.4060206@humanenhancement.com> References: <003a01c4fe57$fae15de0$3d893cd1@pavilion> <41EEB62E.4060206@humanenhancement.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 14:34:06 -0500, Joseph Bloch wrote: > Don't start panicking yet. Michael Leavitt, the about-to-be new > secretary of Health and Human Services, told the Senate committee going > over his nomination that "he would not increase regulation of dietary > supplements". Significantly, that's one of Orrin Hatch's pet issues (he > being on the committee). Not coincidentally, Utah is a center for the > dietary supplement industry. > There is an alternative view, of course, that it is about time somebody tried to control the "supplements" industry. See: Quotes: According to many industry experts, the problems with herbal supplements are just beginning to be understood. "One out of four has some sort of problem," said Dr. Tod Cooperman, physician and president of ConsumerLab.com, an independent laboratory that tests dietary supplements. "People should keep that in mind." In many cases, Cooperman's group has found that some name-brand supplements contain only a fraction of the ingredient on their labels ? if any at all. "Some have none, some have 80 percent, some have 20 percent," Cooperman said. Another problem with supplements involves contamination. In two separate cases last month, pesticide residue was found in a batch of ginseng at a distributor in New Jersey, and toxic heavy metals like mercury, lead and arsenic were discovered in herbal supplements on sale in stores in the Boston area. Researchers have also found significant amounts of Viagra and Cialis, prescription medicines for treating erectile dysfunction, in "natural" sexual enhancement supplements. "There are increasing instances of them being spiked with pharmaceutical products to make them more effective," said Cooperman. "As I see it, the main effect of the DSHEA has been to allow supplement companies to run rampant and make claims that are not substantiated," said Dr. Kevin Scott Ferentz, residency director in the Department of Family Medicine at the University of Maryland School of Medicine in Baltimore. "They sell products that do not contain what they are supposed to. They do not have efficacy data, safety data, quality control data or anything that any pharmaceutical product in America must have," he said. "There are few, if any, supplements that have a data base that is sufficient to recommend their use." End quotes ----------------- Without controls, there could be anything in these magic pills. I am sure that if you were paying 100USD per month for 'organic Alaskan worms', then you would be convinced that eating worms was good for you. BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 21:16:50 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:16:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Massive Object Calls Planet Discoveries into Question In-Reply-To: <00b801c4fe5f$b4221fe0$3d893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050119211650.2412.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/heavy_objects_050119.html > > But there's always been an assumed error in the estimates of > exoplanets > via the "wiggle" technique used. This is because the plane of the > exoplanet's orbit is unknown and estimates of the mass are based on > assumptions able the angle of that orbit. This establishes, IIRC, > lower limits on the mass, but not upper limits. What is more interesting about this story is that it says that the brown dwarf they are examining is between 88-98 Jupiter masses, yet the smallest stars we know of are estimated at 75 jupiter masses. By all accounts this object should be blazing away like a red dwarf star. Given that this object is much cooler than it should be for the new mass range, should we honestly look at this object as difinitive evidence of a Matrioshka Brain or some sort of Dyson Sphere? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 19 21:17:33 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:17:33 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <88F7AFF5-6A5F-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> On Jan 18, 2005, at 2:21 PM, J. Andrew Rogers wrote: > Damien Broderick wrote: >> The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me > wonder >> if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male >> scientists. >> >> No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. > > > I would note two things: > > 1.) Really brilliant people are not brilliant because they were > trained. You cannot be trained to be brilliant, as the very definition > generally asserts abilities that are far beyond what can be obtained > by > mere training. And most of the really brilliant people I can think of > in history had little or unextraordinary training in the fields their > brilliance is noted in. From what I have heard the most gifted and brightest humans learn (at least in experimental tests) no more than twice as easily/quickly than the norm. So I question the "far beyond" a bit. From what I have seen from being around high IQ types effective intelligence seems dependent upon what one has learned in the way of how to maximize one's abilities and think creatively, clearly and rationally. No, that's not enough for brilliance either. It seem to require a mixture of traits, habits and abilities including a wild creative intuition and the ability to give that creative intuition rational form. I am not sure how much of that is learnable. But I would suspect a lot of it potentially is. On the flip side I know more than a few very high IQ people whose mental powers are confined largely to trivia and the creation and maintenance of very convoluted and intricate neuroses. Some of them even have flashes of brilliance, for all the good it does them or anyone else. I agree that formal training in a subject doesn't seem to correlate strongly with brilliance in that subject area. But I think that brilliant people hit upon by accident and/or discover ways of using their intelligence that leads to brilliance. We don't know a lot about what makes the difference that produces brilliance. But I would doubt it was only or chiefly the luck of the genetic draw beyond genetic basis of necessary level raw IQ. Raw IQ seems necessary (although not necessarily at the actual tiptop of human range) but not sufficient. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 19 21:25:30 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:25:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Aubrey de Grey on Technology Review In-Reply-To: <470a3c520501190626328a1dcb@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520501190626328a1dcb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a suspicion that something else is at work. The possibility of defeating aging is over a limit I suspect most people have as to how much change and how radical change they are comfortable with considering. It may not be the specific technology or possibility that throws them into reaction mode but whether it crosses this comfort line. That which they cannot see how to deal with or even imagine well is automatically opposed. Their Shock Level tolerance is set too low. - s On Jan 19, 2005, at 6:26 AM, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > KurzweilAI: The article [referring to the Technology Review articles > and editorial against AdG] has created quite a buzz, particularly in > the Technology Review forums, and Aubrey de Grey's letter in response > to the article is available on the website. > www.kurzweilai.net/news/frame.html?main=/news/news_single.html? > id%3D4167 > Technology Review: Aubrey de Grey begins " Jason Pontin, Technology > Review's Editor-in-Chief, and Brad King, Technology Review's Web > editor, have invited me to respond to the trio of articles about me > and my work that appear in the February 2005 issue of Technology > Review with this online-only piece, in addition to a short "letter to > the editor" from me that will appear in the print edition", and > concludes > "Comment on February's editorial is superfluous. Pontin is as > desperate as Nuland and the Technology Review staff are to put the > real issues out of his mind, but unlike them he does not take the > trouble to cloak this in careful words; the editorial speaks for > itself all too well. > What can we conclude, observing three such egregious departures from > normal logical standards by educated adults? > I can identify only one explanation: most of society is in a pro-aging > trance. This is no surprise: after all, aging is extremely horrible > and until a few years ago could indeed be regarded as probably > immutable for a very long time indeed. Hence, a reasonable tactic was > to put its horror out of one's mind, however absurd the logical > contortions required. > Just as stage hypnotists' subjects provide sincere and lucid > justifications for any false statement that they have been instructed > is true, so most of us (not having dared to consider in detail whether > aging might recently have come within our technological range) > energetically defend the indefinite perpetuation of what it is in fact > humanity's primary duty to eliminate as soon as possible. > Some people find stage hypnotists highly entertaining. I don't -- not > any more, at least." > http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/wo/ > wo_degrey0101805.asp?p=1 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Wed Jan 19 21:25:42 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:25:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Campaign Launched Against Dietary Supplements In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c4fe57$fae15de0$3d893cd1@pavilion> <41EEB62E.4060206@humanenhancement.com> Message-ID: <41EED056.6030308@humanenhancement.com> BillK wrote: >Without controls, there could be anything in these magic pills. I am >sure that if you were paying 100USD per month for 'organic Alaskan >worms', then you would be convinced that eating worms was good for >you. > > More to the point, I wouldn't be spending the $100 in the first place unless I was already convinced about the efficacy of eating the worms. (Full disclosure: I run a website that sells these sorts of dietary supplements, and worms ain't on the list!) Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 19 21:27:27 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:27:27 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:24 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Eliezer wrote: >the hypothesis of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is >conserved 90% of the time or even 99.9999% of the time. The hypothesis of >conservation of momentum is that momentum is conserved 100.00000% of the >time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis of "conservation of >momentum" hypothesizes a state of affairs in which reality is *not* >uncertain; a reality in which it is *absolutely certain* that momentum >will be conserved on each and every occasion. It's true that physicists thought so 100 years ago. Then they found that with the conjugate properties position and momentum, 100% accuracy in measuring position meant momentum went all over the ship. Bugger, eh? Granted, `reality' as Eliezer is using it refers to immense ensembles of individually uncertain events, so that by and large observed macroscopic momentum is pretty robust, even if its substrate is only statistical. But let's not go all 19th century on Brett's ass. Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 19 21:36:54 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:36:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <41EE760B.6060701@neopax.com> References: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> <41EE760B.6060701@neopax.com> Message-ID: <3D06F5FB-6A62-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> On Jan 19, 2005, at 7:00 AM, Dirk Bruere wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> >> Cool work! It is not that humanity "wants to" destroy itself so much >> as it is simply locked into patterns that are very likely to lead to >> its destruction. Whether it "wants to" or not isn't really too >> relevant. The way we largely killed off nuclear power, haven't >> developed other alternatives sufficiently and are largely quite >> wasteful in the way we use fossil fuels and energy combined with the >> fact of eventual Peak Oil and decline of oil production says that we >> are auguring in on energy without some disagreement on how fast we >> are doing so. By itself the failure to fully build out some >> alternative to fossil fuels could bring our civilizations to ruin. >> At least the wars and deprivations and their offshoots would be >> likely to. Of course our energy habits are just one of many >> patterns that could be pointed out as quite detrimental. > > I think there's a certain parochialism involved with this view. > The USA is not the be all and end all of 'our civilisation'. I can > certainly see the USA coming to a rather unpleasant implosive event > through an antitech stance. However, I do not see Europe or > (especially) China going that way. > I think this point in context is pretty irrelevant. While China has some interesting stuff in the nuclear field that is being explored its actual building plans for nuclear power, while ambitious, are not sufficiently so to avoid a lot of damage from oil depletion. We will see. Parts of Europe have a fair amount of nuclear power but none afaik are free of being tied quite thoroughly to oil for the majority of their energy needs. Also Europeans have rather infamously opposed some types of technology much more vehemently than in the States. > Perhaps what we are seeing (speeded up) is the process of an empire > enterering its decadent phase shortly before it is suplanted by the > next (IMO China). > I have no real disagreement that the factual basis for US strength, other than military, is fast decaying. But that wasn't really the point I was exploring. It does have relevance when a decaying power has most of the world's most deadly arsenal though. This is inherently a tremendously dangerous situation. It is exacerbated by a high incidence, even in positions of considerable power, of religious fundamentalism. > For example, the Chinese have not given up on nuclear power. Indeed, > they are pushing ahead at a rate that is unthinkable in the West, esp > with regard to designing and deploying pebble bed reactors on a ten > year timescale. Some projections I've seen suggest that the Chinese > might have as many as 300 up and running by 2030. The Chinese also do > not have any 'moral' qualms that can be traced to a JudeoXian outlook > that will hold them back when it comes to biotech, plus they have an > aging population as we do. Unlike us however, they are not in a > position to expamd their populations by importing cheap labour. > Not unthinkable. There was a time when the US built out nuclear power at close to the same rate. That is why I am less than impressed with China's actual schedule of construction relative to their present and projected energy needs. China also has no moral qualms in practices that we would consider abhorrent. It is a mixed bag. I don't believe China is enough to be the salvation of humanity. - samantha From sentience at pobox.com Wed Jan 19 22:55:06 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:55:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41EEE54A.8060909@pobox.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:24 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Eliezer wrote: > >> the hypothesis of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is >> conserved 90% of the time or even 99.9999% of the time. The >> hypothesis of conservation of momentum is that momentum is conserved >> 100.00000% of the time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis of >> "conservation of momentum" hypothesizes a state of affairs in which >> reality is *not* uncertain; a reality in which it is *absolutely >> certain* that momentum will be conserved on each and every occasion. > > It's true that physicists thought so 100 years ago. Then they found that > with the conjugate properties position and momentum, 100% accuracy in > measuring position meant momentum went all over the ship. Bugger, eh? > > Granted, `reality' as Eliezer is using it refers to immense ensembles of > individually uncertain events, so that by and large observed macroscopic > momentum is pretty robust, even if its substrate is only statistical. > But let's not go all 19th century on Brett's ass. I don't understand exactly why, but I was under the impression that conservation of momentum remains exact. Do any local physicists care to speak up? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 22:56:29 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:56:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:27:27 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:24 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Eliezer wrote: > > >the hypothesis of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is > >conserved 90% of the time or even 99.9999% of the time. The hypothesis of > >conservation of momentum is that momentum is conserved 100.00000% of the > >time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis of "conservation of > >momentum" hypothesizes a state of affairs in which reality is *not* > >uncertain; a reality in which it is *absolutely certain* that momentum > >will be conserved on each and every occasion. > > It's true that physicists thought so 100 years ago. Then they found that > with the conjugate properties position and momentum, 100% accuracy in > measuring position meant momentum went all over the ship. Bugger, eh? Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not conflict with conservation of momentum. It is a limit on measurement capabilities, not an indicator that momentum goes "all over the ship" when position is measured. From hal at finney.org Wed Jan 19 23:21:21 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:21:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! Message-ID: <20050119232121.70AB357E2D@finney.org> At 03:24 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Eliezer wrote: >the hypothesis of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is >conserved 90% of the time or even 99.9999% of the time. The hypothesis of >conservation of momentum is that momentum is conserved 100.00000% of the >time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis of "conservation of >momentum" hypothesizes a state of affairs in which reality is *not* >uncertain; a reality in which it is *absolutely certain* that momentum >will be conserved on each and every occasion. This is true, but if it should turn out that this law is broken, it is likely that in fact it will turn out that momentum is conserved 99.9999% of the time (or to a 99.9999% degree of accuracy). That's how it has gone in the past. We used to believe in conservation of mass, but then it was found out that mass can change very slightly when energy changes. We used to believe in CP symmetry, but then it was found that a tiny percentage of very rare particle reactions violate CP symmetry. Today the standard model predicts CPT symmetry, but there are plenty of authors who are searching for models that would allow the symmetry to be broken. And if it is, it will be broken to a very slight degree. (And I think that this may indeed imply breaking conservation of momentum, although I'm not sure). I am attracted to the Schmidhuber model that says that all universes exist, but that they have different "measures" which somehow represent the degree of likelihood that we could experience them. The measure of a universe is based on the size of the information content used to describe it (equivalently, the size of a computer program that could simulate it). Simpler universes would have greater measure and therefore we are likely to be living in a universe which is among the simplest possible that can allow the creation of intelligent life. This model can, with a bit of hand waving, explain why the physical laws we observe are relatively simple, and predicts that conservation law will more likely hold 100% of the time than 99.999% of the time, because the latter case demands the complexity of specifying the exceptions. OTOH without CP violation, matter and antimatter would balance and there would be essentially no residual matter in the universe to form stars and planets. So we need a little bit of CP violation for planets to exist. And of course we need conversion of mass to energy for stars to exist. But if we had too much of a violation of these conservation laws, there would presumably be other problems. So we predict that physical laws are complex enough to allow for life, but not more so. We can explain things in this qualitative sense, "just so stories" which may or may not be convincing. It tries to provide some justification for Occam's Razor. The problem is that there is a loophole in the explanation: more complex universes will have lower measure, but there are correspondingly more of them. It turns out that in the specific Schmidhuber model these factors balance out. We are reasonably likely to be living in a universe which is basically lawful but has extremely rare, bizarre exceptions to physical laws. As long as these exceptions could not have anthropic consequences, i.e. intelligent life would still evolve, there is no strong reason for exceptions not to be present. It is true that the classical conception of physical laws is that they hold 100% of the time. But even apart from these rather ideosyncratic anthropic/multiverse views, I think many physicists see today's laws as mere approximations to a deeper truth. The mismatch between QM and GR is a blatant reminder that we are far from a convincing and universal physical model. I would not be surprised if physicists working in these frontiers agreed that conservation of momentum was more likely to hold to a 99.9999% degree than with 100% universality. Hal From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 23:14:00 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:14:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:24:54 -0500, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Experiments in cognitive psychology show that people fear air travel more > than car travel. Why? Because airplane accidents are more frequently > reported in the media. People's fear of a particular hazard is, generally, > directly proportional to how often that hazard is reported in the media. > Rare hazards that kill lots of people, like airplane crashes, tend to be > reported in the media often; common small hazards go relatively unnoticed. > This bias is only one of many experiments where people have been observed > reason, not from the actual statistical frequencies of cases, but from the > most attention-grabbing cases or most commonly reported cases. In the midst of an excellent post on Bayes and reality, Eliezer slipped in the above reference to air travel safety. Now I am sure that the airline industry publicity machine claims that air travel is much safer than car travel, but you have to look at their claims carefully. Obviously, in actual numbers many more people are killed on the roads than in air crashes. But many more people are on the roads than are in aircraft. The air industry would like you to compare accidents per mile travelled, which is logically silly, because only about 10% of air accidents occur in the cruise phase of the flight that covers great distances. If you call them on this, their fallback position is to compare accidents per 100,000 hours of travel time. This makes their accident rate about 20 to 40 times worse (!), but is still grossly flattering, due to the long distance cruise phase where nothing much happens (and even the pilots are asleep). The best measure is to compare fatalities per journey, but you will find it difficult to get these figures. provides some interesting tables and graphs. Using the flattering fatalities per 100,000 hours rate they conclude: It is 4 times safer to fly on a airliner than to drive. It is 4 times safer to drive than to fly on a scheduled commuter airline. It is 12 times safer to drive than fly on a non-scheduled commuter plane (air taxi on demand). It is 26 times safer to drive than fly in a general aviation private plane. Method note: To compare airplane fatality rates to automobile fatality rates one must use the same measurements. Unfortunately airplane fatality rates are expressed in number of fatalities per departure or number of fatalities per 100,000 hours flown, while automobile fatality rates are expressed in number of fatalities per 100 million miles driven. Using an average speed of 33.33 mph, automobile fatality rates can be converted into hours driven. I found an interesting risk analysis here: (It even mentions Bayesian theory!). He makes the point that some car drivers have much greater risk factors than others, just as some airlines and some types of plane have much greater risk factors. He doesn't seem to come to any definite conclusions, but one suggestion was that for journeys around 600 miles, the risk was about equal for plane and car. For longer journeys, car risk increases. Anyway, the situation is not as clearcut as the airline industry would like you to believe. BillK From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jan 19 23:28:44 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:28:44 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Darwin Meets Chomsky Message-ID: <41EEED2C.2C7F00EA@mindspring.com> http://www.the-scientist.com/ [requires registration] research Volume 18 | Issue 24 | 16 | Dec. 20, 2004 Darwin Meets Chomsky Scientists converge in a multidisciplinary approach to understanding human language | By Nick Atkinson Reproduced with permission of Punch Ltd. Darwin saw parallels between the evolution of species and of languages Charles Darwin spotted it. In The Descent of Man, he wrote: "The formation of different languages and of distinct species and the proofs that both have developed through a gradual process are clearly the same." He'd been struck by ideas that William Jones had advanced 50 years earlier, that the similarities between languages as disparate as Sanskrit, Latin, and Old Persian, suggest a common historical ancestry. These foundations for an entirely new field of research were largely ignored for almost a century. Language wasn't recognized as a heritable trait, subject to processes of natural selection. Instead, studies of biological and language evolution followed different trajectories, evidence of which is still reflected in the departmental structure of most universities. The divide is finally being bridged, even if a common terminology has taken a while to establish. "It's important to make the distinction between historical linguistics, how a language changes over time, and studies of the evolution of language in humans," says Partha Niyogi at the University of Chicago. He is one of a flotilla of scientists from diverse backgrounds who are currently charting new waters in language evolution research. Previously intractable problems, such as how meaningful language first emerges from a more primitive signaling system, are now being addressed with newly combined theories and methodologies. INNATE GRAMMAR Groundbreaking work by Noam Chomsky laid the foundations for this type of language research, of trying to understand how human language is possible at all. Why, for example, do children all over the world, regardless of their backgrounds, arrive at roughly the same set of rules governing the way they communicate? Natalia Komarova, at the University of California, Irvine, says that such questions are important. "Every child faces an enormously complex task while mastering her native language. Without formal instruction, she has to figure out all the rules of underlying grammar." Komarova points out that this goal must be achieved using only a limited set of sentences, those actually heard, from the infinite number of possibilities. "In fact," she says, "if you're completely open-minded it's mathematically impossible to guess the correct rule." Somehow, though, children do manage this impressive feat, overcoming what is known as the paradox of language acquisition. Chomsky's revolutionary insight was in postulating an innate universal grammar, which helps children navigate the infinite realm of choice. Komarova and others, such as Harvard University's Martin Nowak, are beginning to explore the evolutionary origins of the universal grammar by drawing on some of the tools that evolutionary biologists have been developing over the last few decades. Nowak says that the complexity of the problem has hampered progress. "To study [language] from an evolutionary standpoint requires detailed knowledge of several fields." His own work lies at the center of a rapidly growing literature that uses evolutionary biological tools to yield insight into some of the basic questions on language evolution.1,2 Nowak points to limitations of current methodologies. "Most traditional linguistic models have assumed that one party is the teacher and the other is the student. However, that's not the case in real life," he says, referring to recent studies of a newly emerging sign language in a Nicaraguan deaf community, whose evolution through successive cohorts of children has been closely followed.3 "Children appear to learn from their peers; they arrive at a consensus by which they communicate effectively." This research supports Chomsky's theory of an innate grammar and provides valuable field data on how new languages evolve, but it greatly increases the complexity of the models theoreticians must now develop. Fortunately, a precedent already exists. Courtesy of Claude Bramble HELLO, HELLO? Can linguistics shed light on animal communication, such as alarm calling in vervet monkeys? (shown above) If so, animal models might in turn help us undestand human language. EVOLUTION TACTICS At its simplest level, language can be viewed as a sequence of signals between speaker and listener. This is where methods lifted from evolutionary biology come into play. The late John Maynard Smith championed the adoption of game theory,4 which revolutionized ethology during the 1970s and 1980s. Game theory is now applied to a diverse range of research questions, enabling the study of frequency dependence: population-dynamic situations in which an individual's best response depends on what others are doing. Niyogi, who recently collaborated with Komarova and Nowak,1 says such a conceptual shift is essential. Traditional linguistic approaches can't really tackle more realistic scenarios, such as how a group of children might learn from a more fluid set of teachers, including both peers and a wider, age-structured group, he says. "Linguists are going to have to come to terms with the fact that we need a more sophisticated, population-based setting." Another tantalizing possibility is to define the limits of the universal grammar. An overly intricate grammar would take too long to learn, as too many examples would be needed to test the validity of each linguistic rule. After all, humans have only a limited time for learning language before they reach adulthood. "This is really where linguistics meets evolutionary biology," says Komarova. "There is a selection pressure to make universal grammar smaller and easier to learn." An ultracompact grammar isn't necessarily the most efficient, though. Larger grammar pools increase flexibility, making it possible to express more complex ideas and thus facilitate innovation. Cognitive scientist Gary Marcus, at New York University, is interested in the origins of the human mind.5 He emphasizes the complexity of the task ahead and the need for new, more flexible approaches. "It's easy to view language as the product of natural selection, but we shouldn't see it as a single trait shaped by a single selection pressure," he says. Instead, we need to see it as a mixture of cognitive mechanisms, some old and some new, each of which might be subject to numerous differing, even competing, selection pressures. MORE THAN A GAME Simon Kirby, reader in the evolution of language and cognition at the University of Edinburgh, says that the cross-disciplinary approach has helped dismantle the dogma that all languages are equal. "One of the main contributions coming from the evolutionary biology side is that languages improve qualitatively," he says, "so a language can become more efficient at conveying information as it evolves. The flow of ideas between disciplines isn't all one-way traffic. Theories of learning are vital for any attempt to understand human language. "When the story is finally told about how language has evolved, learning theory will play a central role," says Niyogi. He argues that both the linguistics and computer science communities, which together are responsible for the major developments in learning theory, share the view that its role hasn't been sufficiently incorporated into evolutionary models. "You can't simply collapse 50 years of language research into a single parameter, call it "P" and say it's analogous to cultural transmission." Not all the findings from ethological game-theory studies necessarily map onto linguistics research. Language is a consensus between speakers and listeners. In other biological systems, mutualisms are often kept honest because both partners are continually attempting to exploit one other. But Harvard University's Steve Pinker says that the cooperative nature of language is the most likely factor driving its evolution. "I don't think that language could have evolved primarily as a technique of manipulation," he says. Most animal signals are clear-cut examples of manipulation, in which signalers and receivers exert selective pressure to produce more effective means of exploitation and resistance, respectively. Pinker draws a distinction between these types of interactions, such as mating calls, and the complexity of language, which requires a huge investment by the listener simply to decode the information. Why, Pinker asks, would the listener bother to do this if only to be manipulated as a result? Nevertheless, it's clear that many of the other central evolutionary concepts, such as kin selection, are vital to language. "Human interactions are not entirely antagonistic. There are kin, spouses, and reciprocators, where the relationship is largely (albeit not completely) nonzero-sum and positive," says Pinker, drawing attention to the fact that often both parties can benefit through successful communication. "I think the cooperative story has to be basically right. Lying and manipulation are a parasitic overlay." LANGUAGE FRUIT FLY Comparing animal signals, morphologic structures, genetic systems, and learning processes across species has paid dividends, according to Tecumseh Fitch at the University of St. Andrews' School of Psychology in Scotland. "Many historical linguistics methods can be successfully applied to nonhuman systems," says Fitch. "Bird and whale-song dialects show geographic variation and changes through time, just like human language does." This raises the possibility of using other animal species, what Niyogi calls a "language fruit fly," to better understand human speech. Clearly these are exciting times for language research. And there's no shortage of raw materials, says Kirby. "We have an embarrassment of data. Language is going on all the time, all around us." References 1. MA Nowak et al, "Computational and evolutionary aspects of language," Nature 2002, 417: 611-7. [PubMed Abstract][Publisher Full Text] 2. WG Mitchener, MA Nowak "Chaos and language," Proc Roy Soc Lond B 2004, 271: 701-4. [Publisher Full Text] 3. A Senghas et al, "Children creating core properties of language: evidence from an emerging sign language in Nicaragua," Science 305: 1779-82. [Publisher Full Text] Sept. 17, 2004 4. JM Smith Evolution and the Theory of Games Cambridge University Press 1982., 5. G Marcus The Birth of the Mind: How a Tiny Number of Genes Creates the Complexities of Human Thought New York: Basic Books 2004., -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Jan 19 23:30:52 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:30:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <41EEE54A.8060909@pobox.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41EEE54A.8060909@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050119181935.02d98d88@mail.gmu.edu> At 05:55 PM 1/19/2005, Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote: >>>the hypothesis of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is >>>conserved 90% of the time or even 99.9999% of the time. The hypothesis >>>of conservation of momentum is that momentum is conserved 100.00000% of >>>the time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis of "conservation of >>>momentum" hypothesizes a state of affairs in which reality is *not* >>>uncertain; a reality in which it is *absolutely certain* that momentum >>>will be conserved on each and every occasion. >>It's true that physicists thought so 100 years ago. Then they found that >>with the conjugate properties position and momentum, 100% accuracy in >>measuring position meant momentum went all over the ship. Bugger, eh? >>Granted, `reality' as Eliezer is using it refers to immense ensembles of >>individually uncertain events, so that by and large observed macroscopic >>momentum is pretty robust, even if its substrate is only statistical. But >>let's not go all 19th century on Brett's ass. > >I don't understand exactly why, but I was under the impression that >conservation of momentum remains exact. Do any local physicists care to >speak up? Momentum conservation is usually derived from a spatial translation invariance of the basic mechanics, just as energy conservation is derived from a temporal translation invariance. In general relativity, spatial and temporal translation invariances lose some of their meaning - there are local versions but not global versions. So one usually says that neither energy nor momentum is conserved at a global level. In quantum mechanics, measurements are usually viewed as non-deterministic stochastic events, wherein given an initial state which is not an eigenstate of a momentum operator and a final state which is an eigenstate, one cannot predict which final eigenstate will result. In this sense the only things which can be conserved have what are called superselection rules, that forbid certain kinds of states. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 19 23:35:54 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:35:54 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41EEEEDA.6090206@neopax.com> Jeff Medina wrote: >On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:27:27 -0600, Damien Broderick > wrote: > > >>At 03:24 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Eliezer wrote: >> >> >> >>>the hypothesis of conservation of momentum is not that momentum is >>>conserved 90% of the time or even 99.9999% of the time. The hypothesis of >>>conservation of momentum is that momentum is conserved 100.00000% of the >>>time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis of "conservation of >>>momentum" hypothesizes a state of affairs in which reality is *not* >>>uncertain; a reality in which it is *absolutely certain* that momentum >>>will be conserved on each and every occasion. >>> >>> >>It's true that physicists thought so 100 years ago. Then they found that >>with the conjugate properties position and momentum, 100% accuracy in >>measuring position meant momentum went all over the ship. Bugger, eh? >> >> > >Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not conflict with conservation >of momentum. It is a limit on measurement capabilities, not an >indicator that momentum goes "all over the ship" when position is >measured. > > That's a matter of opinion. A strict interpretation says that there is a tradeoff between the position and momentum and that there is no 'real' absolute values for either that are subject to a measurement limit. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From moulton at moulton.com Wed Jan 19 20:59:06 2005 From: moulton at moulton.com (Fred C. Moulton) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:59:06 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118183136.019efec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> <20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118183136.019efec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <1106168346.28224.7180.camel@localhost> On Tue, 2005-01-18 at 19:40, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:18 PM 1/18/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high > >school, the feminazi NEA > > Just for the sake of civility, how about we adopt a moratorium for a year > or so on cheap gibes like `feminazi', `hoplonazi' and other playground > terms of abuse? Yes. I strongly agree although I think a year is too short a time frame. Let us have some civility and raise the level of discussion. Thanks Fred From russell.wallace at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 00:40:35 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 00:40:35 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! (was A New Year's gift for Bayesians) In-Reply-To: <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e05011916403ac290df@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:24:54 -0500, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > "No. No. No. You cheated Eliezer. You cheated! > > > > You can't assign a probability of zero!* > > > > Not fair!! You said it did happen. You're being dishonest with the > > data to say it's not going to happen." > > Yep, that's a traditional response. :P > > I was hoping for pretty much that reaction from my readers, who I assumed > would be traditional rationalists. Heh. My reaction was: "Eh, dunno; I've read enough science fiction to come up with lots of implausible explanations; in the unlikely event it actually happens, I'll worry about looking for a more plausible one..." *reads spoiler* "...lol! Clever!" Then again, I have bought lottery tickets on I think something like three occasions, just for the hell of it. Don't know if either of those disqualifies me as a traditional rationalist :) - Russell From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 20 00:43:29 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:43:29 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 05:56 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: >Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not conflict with conservation >of momentum. It is a limit on measurement capabilities, not an >indicator that momentum goes "all over the ship" when position is >measured. This is simply wrong (as I understand it). It seems to imply that with finer or smarter measuring instruments, we could home in on both properties simultaneously; this seems to be incorrect. What's more, if one knows position perfectly, momentum can be *anything at all*, and vice versa. It probably won't be, for stochastic reasons, but it could be. Serafino? Damien Broderick [not a physicist] From sjvans at ameritech.net Thu Jan 20 00:45:37 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 16:45:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! (was A New Year's gift for Bayesians) In-Reply-To: <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20050120004537.6248.qmail@web81205.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: >Experiments in cognitive psychology show that people >fear air travel more than car travel. Why? Because >airplane accidents are more frequently >reported in the media. There are other possible reasons. For one, air travel is further removed from everyday experience (to our ancestors) than is driving. Driving *feels* like running very fast, whereas flying is different altogether. For another, you are trusting yourself to someone else. Many people are more comfortable driving themselves than being driven, and the same holds true for many pilots. From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 01:51:20 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:51:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f05011917515f8476df@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:43:29 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > At 05:56 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > > >Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not conflict with conservation > >of momentum. It is a limit on measurement capabilities, not an > >indicator that momentum goes "all over the ship" when position is > >measured. > > This is simply wrong (as I understand it). It seems to imply that with > finer or smarter measuring instruments, we could home in on both properties > simultaneously; this seems to be incorrect. Your claim about what it implies is incorrect. The limit on measurement has nothing to do with what measurement instrument used -- 'finer or smarter' instruments do nothing to alleviate the problem. Google Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. > What's more, if one knows > position perfectly, momentum can be *anything at all*, and vice versa. It > probably won't be, for stochastic reasons, but it could be. Sure. But you're confusing two meanings of "could be" -- the relevant "could be" is "for all we know, it could be anything at all, because the act of measuring position changes the momentum and vice versa" and not "the momentum vector takes on a random/nonsensical value due to a fundamental indeterminism, and so could be anything at all, with utter disregard for conservation of momentum". From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 20 01:53:32 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 17:53:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050120015332.61718.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 05:56 PM 1/19/2005 -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > >Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not > conflict with conservation > >of momentum. It is a limit on measurement > capabilities, not an > >indicator that momentum goes "all over the ship" > when position is > >measured. > > This is simply wrong (as I understand it). It seems > to imply that with > finer or smarter measuring instruments, we could > home in on both properties > simultaneously; this seems to be incorrect. What's > more, if one knows > position perfectly, momentum can be *anything at > all*, and vice versa. It > probably won't be, for stochastic reasons, but it > could be. You're saying the same thing, actually - but from different points of view. Jeff's saying that a single (imprecise) measurement of position does not cause momentum to alter, specifically not to go outside the bounds it is otherwise known to be within. You're pointing out that if position is measured precisely, et cetera. From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jan 20 02:25:50 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:25:50 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <41EE760B.6060701@neopax.com> Message-ID: <200501200226.j0K2PsC12629@tick.javien.com> > Dirk Bruere ... > > ... the Chinese ... are not in a position to > expand their populations by importing cheap labour. Dirk Why is that? spike From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 02:27:35 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:27:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <200501190605.j0J65gC07126@tick.javien.com> References: <200501190605.j0J65gC07126@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 23:05:53 -0700, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > I don't see how this could happen, for how is one supposed to make money > out of space travel? There is a small market for firing very rich > people, celebrities and the like, into space for fun. (This market is > likely to shrink considerably the first time a well-known celebrity > re-enters the earth's atmosphere shuttle-like as a collection of glowing > embers. Just imagine the interplanetary law-suits that will follow. And > of course, in a perfect world some celebrities ought to be fired into > space. One-way....) I don't see how Nepal can make money from people climbing Mt Everest, for how is one supposed to make money out of mountain climbing? There must be a small market for rich people willing to pay upwards of $60,000 to climb a mountain for fun. This market is likely to shrink considerably when others learn that people who climb Mt Everest have a miserable time while doing so, and a great many of them die in the process or lose body parts they'd rather keep. (Quick note for those unaware: From what I've heard, they actually have a very difficult time keeping up with the immense amount of demand for climbing Mt Everest) > One could imagine such people holidaying (uncomfortably) on a moon base, > where one could sell them souvenirs, postcards, air, etc. But there is > no money to be gained - at least in the short to medium term - from the > pursuit of knowledge which underlies the sending of unmanned missions to > Saturn, Titan and so on. What else could we get from these places? Even > if they turned out to have interesting minerals, it wouldn't be > cost-effective to ship them in bulk back to earth. (There go all those > SF films about miners in space....) The analogy isn't perfect, but you may wish to reflect for a little bit on the ways in which research labs on the ground benefit from the cheap transportation allowed for by having a readily-used network of land and air transportation. > At the risk of drifting towards the political, the pursuit of pure > knowledge is one of those things that the free market doesn't do very > well. (There are others, as anyone who has ridden on both Britain's > privately-owned trains and France's state-owned trains can testify...) > Handing over space to the private realm would lead to a concentration on > those things that might make money - holidays in orbit etc - over those > that clearly won't, e.g. can we land something on Pluto just to see if > it has any atmosphere? Two words: name recognition From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 20 02:40:07 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:40:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <5844e22f05011917515f8476df@mail.gmail.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f05011917515f8476df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119203123.01a83ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> [Jeff:] > > >Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not conflict with conservation > > >of momentum. It is a limit on measurement capabilities, not an > > >indicator that momentum goes "all over the ship" when position is > > >measured. [me:] > > This is simply wrong (as I understand it). It seems to imply that with > > finer or smarter measuring instruments, we could home in on both properties > > simultaneously; this seems to be incorrect. [Jeff:] >Your claim about what it implies is incorrect. The limit on >measurement has nothing to do with what measurement instrument used -- >'finer or smarter' instruments do nothing to alleviate the problem. >Google Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. Good grief. DEIXIS ALERT! When I wrote `It seems to imply', I didn't mean the Indeterminacy Principle, I was pointing back to`Your claim'. To use the words `It is a limit on measurement capabilities' seems to me to imply that the *capacity* to measure something *that now exists* is limited. But the point of the Indeterminacy Principle is that *there's nothing determinate there to measure* if you've chosen instead to measure some variable noncommuting with, or conjugate to, it. (As Robin pointed out using much classier language.) Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jan 20 02:46:19 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 18:46:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Massive Object Calls Planet Discoveries intoQuestion In-Reply-To: <20050119211650.2412.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200501200246.j0K2kSC15872@tick.javien.com> > Mike Lorrey > > What is more interesting about this story is that it says that the > brown dwarf they are examining is between 88-98 Jupiter masses... > mass range, should we honestly look at this object as difinitive > evidence of a Matrioshka Brain or some sort of Dyson Sphere? > > ===== > Mike Lorrey Neither a Dyson Sphere or an MBrain would cause the star to wobble. But an SBrain would. {8-] spike From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 20 03:05:36 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:05:36 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <200501200225.j0K2Pmu24317@host1.kbnet.net> References: <200501200225.j0K2Pmu24317@host1.kbnet.net> Message-ID: <41EF2000.6010309@neopax.com> spike wrote: > > >>Dirk Bruere >> >> >... > > >>... the Chinese ... are not in a position to >>expand their populations by importing cheap labour. Dirk >> >> > > >Why is that > > A number of reasons. First, they do not want to expand their population. Second, the Chinese have not been conditioned by 'political correctness' of the form we know in the West. They are basically racists who believe that China should be for the Chinese. [Ditto Japan] Third, it would require importing hundreds of millions of people and is not feasible. There is no global source that could supply the manpower, at least of minimal literacy and competence. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jan 20 03:33:54 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:33:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200501200334.j0K3XwC24406@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK > > > provides some interesting tables and graphs. > BillK Cool thanks Bill! Check out this: http://www.planecrashinfo.com/noaccident.htm Scan down the list of airlines with no fatal accidents. One of them stands out, waaaaay out, since these airlines are all little guys except... Southwest Airlines! SWA has been around for over 30 years, they run skerJILLions of flights every day, and no fatalities! Remarkable. spike (who is taking SWA to San Diego Saturday to pick up an antique motorcycle) From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 20 03:37:39 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:37:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <200501200318.j0K3Hxu00498@host1.kbnet.net> References: <200501200318.j0K3Hxu00498@host1.kbnet.net> Message-ID: <41EF2783.6060509@neopax.com> spike wrote: >>>>Dirk Bruere >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>... >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>... the Chinese ... are not in a position to >>>>expand their populations by importing cheap labour. Dirk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>Why is that >>> >>> >>> >>> >>A number of reasons. >>First, they do not want to expand their population. >>Second, the Chinese have not been conditioned by 'political correctness' >>of the form we know in the West. They are basically racists ... -- Dirk >> >> > >i get that, but if life gets pretty good in china, they wont >be able to keep outsiders out. one way or another they will >make their way in, just as they do here. that should be >interesting to watch. spike > > > I don't think that will be any more true of China than it is of Japan. Any nation that *really* wants to keep out immigrants both legal and illegal can do so with no major problems. Apart from that, where would they come from? Africa? China already ships back N Koreans who manage to escape. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 20 03:56:06 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:56:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] aargh In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119203123.01a83ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f05011917515f8476df@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119203123.01a83ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119215159.019d8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >[me:] > >> > This is simply wrong (as I understand it). It seems to imply that with >> > finer or smarter measuring instruments, we could home in on both >> properties >> > simultaneously; this seems to be incorrect. > >[Jeff:] > >>Your claim about what it implies is incorrect. > >Good grief. DEIXIS ALERT! When I wrote `It seems to imply', I didn't mean >the Indeterminacy Principle, I was pointing back to`Your claim'. At the risk of boring everyone to sleep for good, I have to correct what I hastily typed there. I *meant*: < When I wrote `It seems to imply', I didn't mean the Indeterminacy Principle, I was pointing back to `This' -- i.e. Jeff's statement. > Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 20 03:57:14 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 19:57:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fwd: Re: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050119200127.21565.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050120035715.91094.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Femi-nutsy. Like the women in my family! Mike Lorrey wrote: Okay, come up with a non-loaded term that describes a feminist who believes in the chemical castration of all men. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 05:09:57 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:09:57 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Books: How to Clone the Perfect Blonde Message-ID: <470a3c5205011921097a9b4de9@mail.gmail.com> "Could science really make your shallowest dreams come true?" This is the big question asked by the authors of How to Clone the Perfect Blonde, both responsible adult correspondents for the BBC. The title sounds glib, but the answers are entertaining and sophisticated, a brief collection of mini-treatises on why perceived solutions to desires like building a perfect partner, turning back time, upgrading your body or living forever might be more the stuff of nightmares than fantasy. How to Clone the Perfect Blonde is billed as a layman's explanation of cutting-edge scientific practice for people who "couldn't get past Chapter 2 of A Brief History of Time"--pretty much everybody I know. The book's success stems in part from humor, a clarity of language and the authors' ability to neatly condense fairly heady theoretical background information, but it also offers graceful illustrations of the interrelationships between complex ideas, using examples that range from Homer Simpson to Alan Turing and "Star Trek" to string theory, taking time out along the way to explain why, if we needed proof, 12 Monkeys is a better movie than Groundhog Day--in terms of how they deal with physics, at least. And this is fun stuff. Who really knew, offhand, why Einstein needed both a general and special theory of relativity? Eight chapters deal with such cultural staples as cloning, artificial intelligence, time travel, black holes, teleportation, cryonics and body modification--and they don't mean piercing. Some of these ideas have probably crossed most of our minds in the course of one fantasy or another: Who would you clone as your perfect partner...and what would you do if the clone had the personality of a werewolf? Exactly what services would your robot provide? Why wouldn't you teleport to work--and how might you be reassembled on the other end if you did? The sections begin with comic or at least conversational approaches to their topics. "How to Lose your Love Handles" begins by discussing the false allure of obesity remedies and moves into an explanation of the human genome, which introduces a discourse on gene therapy, addressing concerns that are not only physical--genetic alteration can cure, but also kill--but philosophical: "Eugenics isn't dead," the text notes, "It's just become more complicated." Witness the growth industry of genetically modified foods, brought to us by Monsanto, the folks who introduced caffeine to Coca Cola and Agent Orange to Vietnam. The discussion of time travel begins with the "If Only" game--as in, "If only I could go back and..."--to launch its exploration of parallel universes, relativity and that eternally sticky genre-fiction problem of messing with the past. Quite often, the book points out, our misconceptions cut both ways. If your grandmother has had a hip replaced or a cochlear implant to improve bad hearing, she's undergone the ultimate in elective surgery--she's a cyborg. Sure, somewhere in chiaroscuro-lit laboratories white-coated geeks are hard-wiring lampreys or transplanting monkey brains, but most of this research is compensatory--artificial limbs, the book notes, are becoming more and more like the real ones every day: "At the moment, rather than being better, stronger and faster, any bionic man would be worse, weaker and slower." Some bits are creepier than others. The science behind cryonics is sound, and embryos can be frozen successfully for later use...but what about Michael Jackson? The Acor Life Extension Foundation reportedly has some 50 individuals flash-frozen at its facility in Arizona, even though we have no idea whether either the human the consciousness or the human form could survive defrosting. "Of course," the authors add with typical Brit tongue in cheek, "future generations might have better things to do than bring back the dead." Which segues into one of the neat little sidebars that helps make this work unique, this one on the Frozen Dead Guy Festival in Nederland, Colo.--well, you'll have to get the book to check that out for yourself. http://www.lasvegasmercury.com/2005/MERC-Jan-20-Thu-2005/25670831.html From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jan 20 05:19:54 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:19:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <002001c4feaf$ad2c9ad0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "J. Andrew Rogers" > I would note two things: > > 1.) Really brilliant people are not brilliant because they were > trained. You cannot be trained to be brilliant, as the very definition > generally asserts abilities that are far beyond what can be obtained by > mere training. And most of the really brilliant people I can think of > in history had little or unextraordinary training in the fields their > brilliance is noted in. > > 2.) Math and science are only related insofar as science often uses > math. Scientists and mathematicians have very different thought > processes. Aha! "Lawrence Summers, the president of Harvard, has been pilloried for suggesting that women may be biologically unsuited to succeed at mathematics. He may have a point. Just look at Condoleezza Rice.": http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/20/opinion/20dowd.html?oref=login&hp Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 05:48:21 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 06:48:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] TR: sense of fear Message-ID: <470a3c52050119214839521f28@mail.gmail.com> Interesting comment of a reader in the Technology Review "Do You Want to Live Forever?" discussion forum : "What disturbs me is the sense of fear that I derived from Dr. Nuland's article, as well as your editorial. Fear that more people will take de Grey seriously and force people like you and Dr. Nuland to question your core beliefs". http://www.technologyreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forumid=1002&iPage=1 From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 20 05:59:13 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 21:59:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <002001c4feaf$ad2c9ad0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050120055913.70125.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "J. Andrew Rogers" > > > I would note two things: > > > > 1.) Really brilliant people are not brilliant > because they were > > trained. You cannot be trained to be brilliant, > as the very definition > > generally asserts abilities that are far beyond > what can be obtained by > > mere training. And most of the really brilliant > people I can think of > > in history had little or unextraordinary training > in the fields their > > brilliance is noted in. > > > > 2.) Math and science are only related insofar as > science often uses > > math. Scientists and mathematicians have very > different thought > > processes. > > Aha! > > "Lawrence Summers, the president of Harvard, has > been pilloried for > suggesting that women may be biologically unsuited > to succeed at > mathematics. > He may have a point. > > Just look at Condoleezza Rice.": > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/20/opinion/20dowd.html?oref=login&hp The article wasn't talking about mathematics in the normal sense, but political "math". Like "X number of dead American soldiers times zero weapons of mass destruction", which is a meaningless equation outside of the political message it communicates. From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 06:09:16 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:09:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] TR: sense of fear Message-ID: <470a3c5205011922092d3d1599@mail.gmail.com> My comment to the TR forum: Greg wrote: "What disturbs me is the sense of fear that I derived from Dr. Nuland's article, as well as your editorial. Fear that more people will take de Grey seriously and force people like you and Dr. Nuland to question your core beliefs." Exactly. I had the same impression reading Francis Fukuyama's article "The World's Most Dangerous Ideas - Transhumanism" on Foreign Policy (September - October 2004), beginning with: "For the last several decades, a strange liberation movement has grown within the developed world. Its crusaders aim much higher than civil rights campaigners, feminists, or gayrights advocates. They want nothing less than to liberate the human race from its biological constraints. As "transhumanists" see it, humans must wrest their biological destiny from evolution's blind process of random variation and adaptation and move to the next stage as a species." Fukuyama raises several objections to our inevitable "moving on to the next stage", all thoughtful and well articulated. But to me, they sound like the objections of a child who does not want to grow into a teen, or a teen who is afraid of growing into an adult. http://www.technologyreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forumid=1002 From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Thu Jan 20 06:39:11 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 22:39:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Cytologist and Cancer Studies Interest Message-ID: <20050120063911.71464.qmail@web41315.mail.yahoo.com> Dear friends, We have a friend interested in cytology and cancer studies? Is any one else in those areas? Transhumanistically yours, La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: holiness kililo mwagore Subject: Fwd: Cytologist and Cancer Studies Interest Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:10:52 -0800 (PST) Size: 15139 URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jan 20 07:15:52 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 23:15:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050120055913.70125.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01c4febf$e0c45b70$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Adrian Tymes" >> Just look at Condoleezza Rice.": >> > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/20/opinion/20dowd.html?oref=login&hp > > The article wasn't talking about mathematics in the > normal sense, but political "math". Like "X number of > dead American soldiers times zero weapons of mass > destruction", which is a meaningless equation outside > of the political message it communicates. Yes, I know. I'm sure Maureen Dowd knew, as well. Poetic license and all that. Olga From sentience at pobox.com Thu Jan 20 07:53:35 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 02:53:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! (was A New Year's gift for Bayesians) In-Reply-To: <20050120004537.6248.qmail@web81205.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050120004537.6248.qmail@web81205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41EF637F.60605@pobox.com> Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > >> Experiments in cognitive psychology show that people fear air travel >> more than car travel. Why? Because airplane accidents are more >> frequently reported in the media. > > There are other possible reasons. For one, air travel is further > removed from everyday experience (to our ancestors) than is driving. > Driving *feels* like running very fast, whereas flying is different > altogether. > > For another, you are trusting yourself to someone else. Many people are > more comfortable driving themselves than being driven, and the same > holds true for many pilots. Yes, my mistake. However, other experiments have also shown a correlation between media reports of disasters and people's estimates of their frequency. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From scerir at libero.it Thu Jan 20 08:02:34 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:02:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc><41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com><6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000601c4fec6$66f44240$22c41b97@administxl09yj> Jeff Medina wrote: > >Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle does not conflict with conservation > >of momentum. It is a limit on measurement capabilities, not an > >indicator that momentum goes "all over the ship" when position is > >measured. Damien wrote: > This is simply wrong (as I understand it). It seems to imply that with > finer or smarter measuring instruments, we could home in on both properties > simultaneously; this seems to be incorrect. What's more, if one knows > position perfectly, momentum can be *anything at all*, and vice versa. It > probably won't be, for stochastic reasons, but it could be. Not sure to understand the points (I did not follow the thread). Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, exemplified by the gamma ray gedanken experiment, suggests that any finite precision measurement *disturbs* any observables non-commuting with the measured observable. (There is no general agreement about the interpretation of HUP in these terms. And the HUP has no meaning in certain cases, i.e. with bounded observables etc. So, there are new mathematical formulations of the HUP now, in terms of informations, entropies, etc. And Aharonov invented a class of physical measurements which by-pass the HUP). Anyway he limitation on the measurement of an operator imposed by the presence of a conservation law was studied by Wigner, then by Araki and Yanase. The resulting WAY theorem shows that an operator which does not commute with a conserved (additive) quantity cannot be measured exactly. The relation between HUP and WAY is still obscure to me, and -to my knowledge- is still not well known in general. Say we have a particle with position q and momentum p, and a measuring apparatus with position Q and momentum P. Let's suppose that the total momentum p + P is conserved. Essentially the WAY theorem says that it is impossible to measure particle's position q. We can only measure its position relative to the apparatus q - Q. More, by John Baez, here below: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/week33.html From sentience at pobox.com Thu Jan 20 08:20:13 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 03:20:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41EF69BD.3010700@pobox.com> This was a reply which was forwarded to me offlist: > In general, if you make a measurement on a system, it is no longer > closed (you have exerted forces on it), so there is no reason to > expect momentum to be conserved. If you make a precise measurement of > the momentum (put the system in an eigenstate of momentum), let it be, > and make a subsequent measurement of the momentum, you are indeed > guaranteed to get the same answer. This is true in both > nonrelativistic and (special-)relativistic quantum mechanics; the only > difference in the latter is that the momentum is no longer a kosher > vector by itself; it is just the three spatial components of a > four-vector and changes if you look at it from a moving frame of > reference. > > One of the posters intimated that the situation becomes more > complicated in general relativity, which I can well believe; but I > have never read anything about that. From the popular press one > gathers that there is at present no general-relativistic extension of > quantum mechanics. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From amara at amara.com Thu Jan 20 08:21:12 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:21:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Women in Mathematics throughout history Message-ID: Women in Mathematics throughout history http://www.agnesscott.edu/lriddle/women/women.htm and if you have not heard of Ingrid Daubechies, then shame on you http://www.pacm.princeton.edu/~ingrid/ The field of wavelets, that is, that important and incredibly useful complement to Fourier analysis, would not be the field of wavelets if it were not for Daubechies (think about that, the next time you have data stored in your standard JPEG-2000 format http://datacompression.info/JPEG2000.shtml), or receive compressed data over your telecommunications network. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From scerir at libero.it Thu Jan 20 13:23:59 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:23:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] still no biscuit! References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050119152147.01ac8ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <5844e22f050119145646cac0e3@mail.gmail.com><6.1.1.1.0.20050119183334.019a9608@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41EF69BD.3010700@pobox.com> Message-ID: <008401c4fef3$4d635500$72c31b97@administxl09yj> [fdwded by Eliezer] > > In general, if you make a measurement on a system, > > it is no longer closed (you have exerted forces on it), > > so there is no reason to expect momentum to be conserved. This is the physical content of complementarity principle, according to N.Bohr. Notice that Bohr - see i.e. the neutrino case - was not a fan of conservation principles, at all. 'However, since the discovery of the quantum of action, we know that the classical ideal cannot be attained in the description of atomic phenomena. In particular, any attempt at an ordering in space-time leads to a break in the causal chain, since such an attempt is bound up with an essential exchange of momentum and energy between the individuals and the measuring rods and clocks used for observation; and just this exchange cannot be taken into account if the measuring instruments are to fulfil their purpose. Conversely, any conclusion, based in an unambiguous manner upon the strict conservation of energy and momentum, with regard to the dynamical behaviour of the individual units obviously necessitates a complete renunciation of following their course in space and time'. (N.Bohr) One would ask: what about Bohmian mechanics then? It is a deterministic, causal, (non-local though) theory, is not it? So, it should provide a consistent 'course' of quantum events, in space and time. But this does not seem to be the case, since the trajectories of Bohmian mechanics are more "surreal" than real ... http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0010020 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0002046 Aage Bohr (son of Niels) seems to push to the extreme the philosophy of complementarity saying that: 'Perhaps surprisingly, the very notion of genuine fortuitousness is powerful in its implications. With particles excluded, only geometry is left on the stage, and the symmetry of spacetime itself, through its representations, provides the mathematical formalism of quantum mechanics. Once that point is recognized, quantum mechanics emerges from the principle of genuine fortuitousness combined with the embodiment of spacetime symmetry, without any reference to degrees of freedom of particles or fields. The theory, exclusively concerned with probability distributions of genuinely fortuitous clicks, thus differs from previous physical theories in that it does not deal with objects to be measured - which eliminates the issue of a quantum world.' http://www.physicstoday.org/vol-57/iss-10/p15.html The above point of view is not so far from the 'relational' interpretation of QM, by Carlo Rovelli, or the 'Ithaca' interpretation of QM, by David Mermin. http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9609002 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9801057 http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9807055 s. "Fields in empty space have physical reality; the medium that supports them does not. Correlations have physical reality; that which they correlate does not." - David Mermin From natasha at natasha.cc Thu Jan 20 13:52:50 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 07:52:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Women in Mathematics throughout history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050120075155.022e5e48@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Thank you Amara. Most of these types of records are not up front and personal. Same scenario in the art world. Natasha At 02:21 AM 1/20/2005, you wrote: >Women in Mathematics throughout history > >http://www.agnesscott.edu/lriddle/women/women.htm > >and if you have not heard of Ingrid Daubechies, then shame on you >http://www.pacm.princeton.edu/~ingrid/ > >The field of wavelets, that is, that important and incredibly useful >complement to Fourier analysis, would not be the field of wavelets if >it were not for Daubechies (think about that, the next time you have >data stored in your standard JPEG-2000 format >http://datacompression.info/JPEG2000.shtml), or receive compressed >data over your telecommunications network. > >Amara > >-- > >Amara Graps, PhD >Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) >Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), >Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, >Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 20 14:27:59 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:27:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Women in Mathematics throughout history References: Message-ID: <00b601c4fefc$3e4772a0$5b893cd1@pavilion> On Thursday, January 20, 2005 3:21 AM Amara Graps amara at amara.com wrote: > and if you have not heard of Ingrid Daubechies, > then shame on you > http://www.pacm.princeton.edu/~ingrid/ > > The field of wavelets, that is, that important and > incredibly useful complement to Fourier analysis, > would not be the field of wavelets if it were not for > Daubechies (think about that, the next time you have > data stored in your standard JPEG-2000 format > http://datacompression.info/JPEG2000.shtml), > or receive compressed data over your > telecommunications network. Not only have I heard of her, I've read one of her books (IIRC, it was titled something like "Ten Lecture on Wavelets") and I actually dropped her name in job interview a few years ago.:) Regards, Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/MyWorksBySubject.html From jonkc at att.net Thu Jan 20 16:07:42 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:07:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> <88F7AFF5-6A5F-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Message-ID: <001a01c4ff0a$32d719d0$bcff4d0c@hal2001> "Samantha Atkins" > From what I have heard the most gifted and brightest > humans learn (at least in experimental tests) no more > than twice as easily/quickly than the norm. That's probably true and in some subjects, like engineering a small superiority won't produce a huge difference in results, but in science and especially higher mathematics it can. If I'm 90% as good a mathematician as you then two people like me are not 1.8 times as productive as you, we can not even equal you. > I know more than a few very high IQ people whose > mental powers are confined largely to trivia and the > creation and maintenance of very convoluted > and intricate neuroses. That's true but not surprising; it would be surprising if the most complicated thing in the universe, intelligence, could be described by just one number when you need a vector to do the same for something as simple as the wind. For brains I imagine you'd need a tensor, and a big one. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From jonkc at att.net Thu Jan 20 16:45:35 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:45:35 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Women in Mathematics throughout history References: Message-ID: <004d01c4ff0f$7edafe50$bcff4d0c@hal2001> "Amara Graps" > if you have not heard of Ingrid Daubechies, then shame on you I have heard of Ingrid Daubechies, she is a remarkable woman and I thank her for JPEG-2000, but I am also sure she would be incredulous if you tried to compare her to Newton or Archimedes. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Jan 20 17:20:08 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:20:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates Message-ID: <1106241608.13251@whirlwind.he.net> > Scan down the list of airlines with no fatal accidents. > One of them stands out, waaaaay out, since these airlines > are all little guys except... Southwest Airlines! SWA has > been around for over 30 years, they run skerJILLions > of flights every day, and no fatalities! Remarkable. It is a very well-run airline. It probably helps that they only have a single type of aircraft across their fleet (Boeing 737) and that their ground crews, mechanics, and pilots are non-union. I had friends who worked for SWA as mechanics and ground crew, and while you often had to work harder and there was no union protection (it did not take much sloppiness for a mechanic to get fired), most preferred the working environment at that airline to the others. They also have a flatter pay scale than many of the other airlines. One of the very smart things they've done over the years is accumulate a vast stockpile of futures contracts on jet fuel, often purchased during times when fuel prices were very cheap like the '90s. This was sometimes criticized as foolish use of capital, since the futures contracts were generally priced with a comfortable margin above market (probably an incentive for the fuel companies to agree to them). Of course, given where crude oil prices are today, having bought jet fuel futures contracts from here to eternity at the equivalent of $20/bbl crude has them laughing all the way to the bank. A number of other airlines buy some futures contracts on jet fuel as a hedge against market fluctuations, but SWA basically lives on its futures contracts and does not even worry about market prices. It makes it easier to project operational costs, that's for sure. j. andrew rogers From sentience at pobox.com Thu Jan 20 17:25:27 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:25:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Women in Mathematics throughout history In-Reply-To: <004d01c4ff0f$7edafe50$bcff4d0c@hal2001> References: <004d01c4ff0f$7edafe50$bcff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <41EFE987.7040909@pobox.com> John K Clark wrote: > "Amara Graps" > >> if you have not heard of Ingrid Daubechies, then shame on you > > I have heard of Ingrid Daubechies, she is a remarkable woman and I thank > her for JPEG-2000, but I am also sure she would be incredulous if you > tried to compare her to Newton or Archimedes. Unfair, you have to compare her to a great math genius post-1960 when the grounds even *began* to become equal. Andrew J. Wiles? I don't think he compares to Newton either, at least in terms of accomplishment (who knows about g-factor). -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 20 19:08:05 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:08:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates References: <200501200334.j0K3XwC24406@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <007f01c4ff23$5f4dd0d0$c3eafb44@kevin> Does this make them more or less likely to have a crash by the end of the year? ----- Original Message ----- From: "spike" To: "'BillK'" ; "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:33 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates > > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of BillK > > > > > > provides some interesting tables and graphs. > > > BillK > > Cool thanks Bill! Check out this: > > http://www.planecrashinfo.com/noaccident.htm > > Scan down the list of airlines with no fatal accidents. > One of them stands out, waaaaay out, since these airlines > are all little guys except... Southwest Airlines! SWA has > been around for over 30 years, they run skerJILLions > of flights every day, and no fatalities! Remarkable. > > spike > > (who is taking SWA to San Diego Saturday to pick up > an antique motorcycle) > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mike99 at lascruces.com Thu Jan 20 19:21:27 2005 From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:21:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: [wta-talk] TR: sense of fear In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205011922092d3d1599@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Giulio, Yes, I quite agree with your characterization of Fukuyama's objections to transhumanism as sounding "like the objections of a child who does not want to grow into a teen, or a teen who is afraid of growing into an adult." We have a name for this phenomenon. It is based on a classic of British children's literature. It is called the "Peter Pan Syndrome." Regards, Michael LaTorra mike99 at lascruces.com mlatorra at nmsu.edu "For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes towards slavery." -- Jacob Bronowski "Experiences only look special from the inside of the system." -- Eugen Leitl Member: Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org Board of Directors, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies: http://ieet.org/ Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org Society for Technical Communication: www.stc.org President, Zen Center of Las Cruces: http://www.zencenteroflascruces.org > -----Original Message----- > From: wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org > [mailto:wta-talk-bounces at transhumanism.org]On Behalf Of Giu1i0 Pri5c0 > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 11:09 PM > To: hitbangpost at googlegroups.com; ExI chat list; World Transhumanist > Association Discussion List > Subject: [wta-talk] TR: sense of fear > > > My comment to the TR forum: > Greg wrote: "What disturbs me is the sense of fear that I derived from > Dr. Nuland's article, as well as your editorial. Fear that more people > will take de Grey seriously and force people like you and Dr. Nuland > to question your core beliefs." > Exactly. I had the same impression reading Francis Fukuyama's article > "The World's Most Dangerous Ideas - Transhumanism" on Foreign Policy > (September - October 2004), beginning with: > "For the last several decades, a strange liberation movement has grown > within the developed world. Its crusaders aim much higher than civil > rights campaigners, feminists, or gayrights advocates. They want > nothing less than to liberate the human race from its biological > constraints. As "transhumanists" see it, humans must wrest their > biological destiny from evolution's blind process of random variation > and adaptation and move to the next stage as a species." > Fukuyama raises several objections to our inevitable "moving on to the > next stage", all thoughtful and well articulated. But to me, they > sound like the objections of a child who does not want to grow into a > teen, or a teen who is afraid of growing into an adult. > http://www.technologyreview.com/forums/forum.asp?forumid=1002 > _______________________________________________ > wta-talk mailing list > wta-talk at transhumanism.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-talk > From pharos at gmail.com Thu Jan 20 19:39:39 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:39:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates In-Reply-To: <007f01c4ff23$5f4dd0d0$c3eafb44@kevin> References: <200501200334.j0K3XwC24406@tick.javien.com> <007f01c4ff23$5f4dd0d0$c3eafb44@kevin> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:08:05 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > Does this make them more or less likely to have a crash by the end of the > year? > I would say less likely. If plane crashes are caused by random events, then the longer an airline goes without a crash, then the more likely it is to become a target of a random event. BUT, the great majority of plane crashes are not caused by random events. Pilot error and other human error accounts for 60%, with mechanical failure for another 20%. Good company practice and training should avoid these factors. Weather accounts for 11%. A safe company would avoid flying in dangerous weather conditions. Sabotage was 8% and 'other' was 1%. Unless SWA does something to cause sabotage, they should be safe from this also. So I would recommend Spike to continue flying SWA and any other airline with a clean record. BillK From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 20 20:38:37 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:38:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Brilliance In-Reply-To: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <20050120203837.73627.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: > You cannot be trained to be brilliant, as > the very definition > generally asserts abilities that are far beyond > what can be obtained by > mere training. Eh? "Brilliance" seems to imply abilities that are far beyond what most people have, but says nothing about how they were obtained. > And most of the really brilliant > people I can think of > in history had little or unextraordinary training in > the fields their > brilliance is noted in. Aside, of course, from self-directed training. Which can be the most powerful form. Also, most of the really brilliant people I can think of in history were not raised with all the disadvantages in the world. (Else, there should have been quite a few African or south Asian Einstein-equivalents over the past century. There might arguably have been a few, but not as many as there should have been if brilliance is independent of upbringing.) From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 20 20:39:37 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:39:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118213751.39559.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050120203937.73956.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Great mathemeticians of either gender are > > extraordinarily rare, to the point that > conclusions > > based on the distribution seem unreliable due to > the > > small sample size. > > Really? What is the distribution of gender to IQ? It is a question that misses the quoted point. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 20 21:10:45 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:10:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050120211045.257.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > I don't see how this could happen, for how is one > supposed to make money > out of space travel? There is a small market for > firing very rich > people, celebrities and the like, into space for > fun. And a large market for firing everyday people into space, once the cost is reduced such that they can afford it. Market studies by NASA and others indicate that there is discontinuity somewhere between $10,000 and $100,000 per person, maybe a bit higher, just for an up-and-down trip (even if you don't actually go into orbit). > But there is > no money to be gained - at least in the short to > medium term - from the > pursuit of knowledge which underlies the sending of > unmanned missions to > Saturn, Titan and so on. What else could we get from > these places? Even > if they turned out to have interesting minerals, it > wouldn't be > cost-effective to ship them in bulk back to earth. > (There go all those > SF films about miners in space....) Actually, it might be cost-effective to ship platinum and similar precious metals back from asteroids: you'd concentrate on just the highest value per unit mass, and asteroids don't have major launch/landing delta-V. Again, it would help to significantly reduce the cost of launch from Earth. (Of course, to get significant quantities of this, you'd focus on M-type asteroids like Amun, which are relatively rare.) There are those who claim the value of raw iron in space is greatly increased by its being in space. I disagree with them, at least for the short term, because that would require a number of customers for iron in space, which do not yet exist. Maybe in the future, though. Say, bring an M-type asteroid to the L4 or L5 point, extract the platinum there for transfer to Earth, and leave the rest of the iron along with satellites to mark it as "claimed". If and when space industry subsequently emerges, you can cash in on it (and give it a boost)...but that's beyond the time horizon for most investors. Better to focus on stuff that's valuable after being brought down to Earth. > Handing over space to the private realm would lead > to a concentration on > those things that might make money - holidays in > orbit etc - over those > that clearly won't, e.g. can we land something on > Pluto just to see if > it has any atmosphere? NASA would continue to have a proper role in the latter, in that case, rather than trying to dominate and dictate the former as well. This is an outcome that those of us who wish for more private space companies would like to see happen - even if it means the destruction of "NASA" and its replacement with an equivalent agency that does not have NASA's current management culture. From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 20 21:42:48 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:42:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <001a01c4ff0a$32d719d0$bcff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20050120214248.84925.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, they are called 'sports fans'. > I know more than a few very high IQ people whose > mental powers are confined largely to trivia and the > creation and maintenance of very convoluted > and intricate neuroses. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Thu Jan 20 22:10:03 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:10:03 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Expl =?iso-8859-1?q?oration_=A0_?= Message-ID: <20050120220615.M37008@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> I gave this link here last July after I heard a talk by this guy at COSPAR. (He gave a very good presentation to a somewhat skeptical audience.) It's worth repeating the link: http://www.spacefuture.com/tourism/tourism.shtml Amara From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 20 23:43:16 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:43:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] a Titanic blooper Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050120174228.01c59ae8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050117/full/050117-12.html > The Channel A receiver was simply not turned on during the mission. "There's > no mystery why it didn't turn on," says one scientist on the imaging team, who > was upset by the loss. "The command was never sent to switch it on." Whaaaa--? From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 21 00:13:43 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:13:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <20050120211045.257.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050121001343.4551.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> How much is it at this time to send each pound into space? Can robots mine asteroids for platinum & gold? > Actually, it might be cost-effective to ship > platinum > and similar precious metals back from asteroids: > you'd > concentrate on just the highest value per unit mass, > and asteroids don't have major launch/landing > delta-V. > Again, it would help to significantly reduce the > cost > of launch from Earth. (Of course, to get > significant > quantities of this, you'd focus on M-type asteroids > like Amun, which are relatively rare.) > > There are those who claim the value of raw iron in > space is greatly increased by its being in space. I > disagree with them, at least for the short term, > because that would require a number of customers for > iron in space, which do not yet exist. Maybe in the > future, though. Say, bring an M-type asteroid to > the > L4 or L5 point, extract the platinum there for > transfer to Earth, and leave the rest of the iron > along with satellites to mark it as "claimed". If > and > when space industry subsequently emerges, you can > cash > in on it (and give it a boost)...but that's beyond > the > time horizon for most investors. Better to focus on > stuff that's valuable after being brought down to > Earth. > > > Handing over space to the private realm would lead > > to a concentration on > > those things that might make money - holidays in > > orbit etc - over those > > that clearly won't, e.g. can we land something on > > Pluto just to see if > > it has any atmosphere? > > NASA would continue to have a proper role in the > latter, in that case, rather than trying to dominate > and dictate the former as well. This is an outcome > that those of us who wish for more private space > companies would like to see happen - even if it > means > the destruction of "NASA" and its replacement with > an > equivalent agency that does not have NASA's current > management culture. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jan 21 00:27:27 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 00:27:27 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] a Titanic blooper In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050120174228.01c59ae8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050120174228.01c59ae8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:43:16 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://www.nature.com/news/2005/050117/full/050117-12.html > > > The Channel A receiver was simply not turned on during the mission. "There's > > no mystery why it didn't turn on," says one scientist on the imaging > > team, who was upset by the loss. "The command was never sent to switch it on." > > Whaaaa--? > I think it's called human error, Damien. There's a lot of it about. "Southwood says it isn't important who omitted the crucial instruction, because the responsibility runs wider than that: the error should have been picked up during checks. ESA is now mounting an investigation into why the mistake was not spotted." Anything that involves humans will have errors. That's why peer review and backup checks are so important. If you are an expert, that just means you make a better class of mistake. I find it pays to have someone around to tell me when I am being an idiot, in the nicest possible way, of course. :) BillK From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Jan 21 02:02:01 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:02:01 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science Message-ID: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> [When reading Feynmans lecture over the holidays I was struck by how many of his themes resonated with recent discussions on the Exi-chat list. And Feynman was talking about the world as he saw it over 40 years ago. I wanted to be able to refer to it but needed it to be available to refer to.] Richard Feynman's lecture - The Uncertainty of Science April 1963. ----------- [1] I want to address myself directly to the impact of science on man's ideas in other fields, a subject Mr. John Danz particularly wanted to be discussed. In the first of these lectures I will talk about the nature of science and emphasize particularly the existence of doubt and uncertainty. In the second lecture I will discuss the impact of scientific views on political questions, in particular the question of national enemies, and on religious questions. And in the third lecture I will describe how society looks to me - I could say how society looks to a scientific man, but it is only how it looks to me - and what future scientific discoveries may produce in terms of social problems. [2] What do I know of religion and politics? Several friends in the physics department here and in other places laughed and said, "I'd like to come and hear what you have to say. I never knew you were interested very much in those things." They mean, of course, I am interested, but I would not dare to talk about them. [3] In talking about the impact of ideas in one field on ideas in another field, one is always apt to make a fool of oneself. In these days of specialization there are too few people who have such a deep understanding of two departments of knowledge that they do not make fools of themselves in one or the other. [4] The ideas I wish to describe are old ideas. There is practically nothing that I am going to say tonight that could not easily have been said by philosophers of the seventeenth century. Why repeat all this? Because there are new generations born every day. Because there are great ideas developed in the history of man, and these ideas do not last from generation to generation. [5] Many old ideas have become such common knowledge that it is not necessary to talk about or explain them again. But the ideas associated with the problems of the development of science, as far as I can see by looking around me, are not of the kind that everybody appreciates.It is true that a large number of people do appreciate them. And in a university particularly most people appreciate them, and you may be the wrong audience for me. [6] Now in this difficult business of talking about the impact of the ideas of one field on those of another, I shall start at the end that I know. I do know about science. I know its ideas and its methods, its attitudes toward knowledge, the sources of its progress, its mental discipline. And therefore, in this first lecture, I shall talk about the science that I know, and I shall leave the more ridiculous of my statements for the next two lectures, at which, I assume, the general law is that the audiences will be smaller. [7] What is science? The word is usually used to mean one of three things, or a mixture of them. I do not think we need to be precise - it is not always a good idea to be too precise. Science means, sometimes, a special method of finding things out. Sometimes it means the body of knowledge arising from the things found out. It may also mean the new things you can do when you have found something out, or the actual doing of new things. This last field is usually called technology - but if you look at the science section in Time magazine you will find it covers about 50 percent what new things are found out and about 50 percent what new things can be and are being done. And so the popular definition of science is partly technology, too. [8] I want to discuss these three aspects of science in reverse order. I will begin with the new things that you can do - that is, with technology. The most obvious characteristic of science is its application, the fact that as a consequence of science one has a power to do things. And the effect this power has had need hardly be mentioned. The whole industrial revolution would almost have been impossible without the development of science. The possibilities today of producing quantities of food adequate for such a large population, of controlling sickness - the very fact that there can be free men without the necessity of slavery for full production - are very likely the result of the development of scientific means of production. [9] Now this power to do things carries with it no instructions on how to use it, whether to use it for good or evil. The product of this power is either good or evil depending on how it is used. We like improved production, but we have problems with automation. We are happy with the development of medicine, and then we worry about the number of births and the fact that no one dies from the diseases we have eliminated. Or else, with the same knowledge of bacteria, we have hidden laboratories in which men are working as hard as they can to develop bacteria for which no one else will be able to find a cure. We are happy with the development of air transportation and are impressed by the great airplanes, but we are aware also of the horrors of air war. We are pleased by the ability to communicate between nations, and then we worry about the fact that we can be snooped upon so easily. We are excited by the fact that space can now be entered; well, we will undoubtedly have a difficulty there, too. The most famous of all these imbalances is the development of nuclear energy and its obvious problems. [10] Is science of any value? [11] I think a power to do something is of value. Whether the result is a good thing or a bad thing depends on how it is used, but the power is a value. [12] Once in Hawaii I was taken to see a Buddhist temple. In the temple a man said, "I am going to tell you something that you will never forget." And then he said, "To every man is given the key to the gates of heaven. The same key opens the gates of hell." [13] And so it is with Science. In a way it is a key to the gates of heaven, and the same key opens the gates of hell, and we do not have any instructions as to which is which gate. Shall we throw away the key and never have a way to enter the gates of heaven? Or shall we struggle with the problem of which is the best way to use the key? That is, of course, a very serious question, but I think that we cannot deny the value of the key to the gates of heaven. [14] All the major problems of the relations between society and science lie in this same area. When the scientist is told that he must be more responsible for his effects on society, it is the applications of science that are referred to. If you work to develop nuclear energy you must realize also that it can be used harmfully. Therefore you would expect that, in a discussion of this kind by a scientist, this would be the most important topic. But I will not talk about it further. I think that to say these are scientific problems is an exaggeration. They are far more humanitarian problems. The fact that how to work the power is clear, but how to control it is not, is something not so scientific and is not something that the scientist knows so much about. [15] Let me illustrate why I do not want to talk about this. Some time ago, in about 1949 or 1950, I went to Brazil to teach physics. There was a Point Four program in those days, which was very exciting - everyone was going to help the underdeveloped countries. What they needed, of course, was technical know-how. [16] In Brazil I lived in the city of Rio. In Rio there are hills on which homes are made with broken pieces of wood from old signs and so forth. The people are extremely poor. They have no sewers and no water. In order to get water they carry old gasoline cans on their heads down the hills. They go to a place where a new building is being built, because there they have water for mixing cement. The people fill their cans with water and carry them up the hills. And later you see the water dripping down the hill in dirty sewage. It is a pitiful thing. [17] Right next to these hills are the exciting buildings of the Copacabana beach, beautiful apartments, and so on. [18] And I said to my friends in the Point Four program, "Is this a problem of technical know-how? They don't know how to put a pipe up the hill? They don't know how to put a pipe to the top of the hill so that the people can at least walk uphill with the empty cans and downhill with the full cans?" [19] So it is not a problem of technical know-how. Certainly not, because in the neighbouring apartment buildings there are pipes, and there are pumps. We realize that now. Now we think it is a problem of economic assistance, and we do not know whether that really works or not. And the question of how much it costs to put a pipe and a pump to the top of each of the hills is not one that seems worth discussing, to me. [20] Although we do not know how to solve the problem, I would like to point out that we tried two things, technical know-how and economic assistance. We are discouraged with them both, and we are trying something else. As you will see later, I find this encouraging. I think that to keep trying new solutions is the way to do everything. [21] Those, then are the practical aspects of science, the new things that you can do. They are so obvious that we do not need to speak about them further. [22] The next aspect of science is its contents, the things that have been found out. This is the yield. This is the gold. This is the excitement, the pay you get for all the disciplined thinking and hard work. The work is not done for the sake of an application. It is done for the excitement of what is found out. Perhaps most of you know this. But to those of you who do not know it, it is almost impossible for me to convey in a lecture this important aspect, this exciting part, the real reason for science. And without understanding this you miss the whole point. You cannot understand science and its relation to anything else unless you understand and appreciate the great adventure of our time. You do not live in your time unless you understand that this is a tremendous and a wild and exciting thing. [23] Do you think it is dull? It isn't. It is most difficult to convey, but perhaps I can give some idea of it. Let me start anywhere, with any idea. [24] For instance, the ancients believed that the earth was the back of an elephant that stood on a tortoise that swam in a bottomless sea. Of course, what held up the sea was another question. They did not know the answer. [25] The belief of the ancients was the result of imagination. It was a poetic and beautiful idea. Look at the way we see it today. Is that a dull idea? The world is a spinning ball, and people are held on it on all sides, some of them upside down. And we turn like a spit in front of a great fire. We whirl around the sun. That is more romantic, more exciting. And what holds us? The force of gravitation, which is not only a thing of the earth but is the thing that makes the earth round in the first place, holds the sun together and keeps us running around the sun in our perpetual attempt to stay away. This gravity holds its sway not only on the stars but between the stars; it holds them in the great galaxies for miles and miles in all directions. [26] This universe has been described by many, but it just goes on, with its edge as unknown as the bottom of the bottomless seas of the other idea - just as mysterious, just as awe-inspiring, and just as incomplete as the poetic pictures that came before. [27] But see that the imagination of nature is far, far greater than the imagination of man. No one who did not have some inkling of this through observations could ever have imagined such a marvel as nature is. [28] Or the earth and time. Have you read anywhere, by any poet, anything about time that compares with real time, with the long, slow process of evolution? Nay, I went too quickly. First, there was the earth without anything alive on it. For billions of years this ball was spinning with its sunsets and its waves and the sea and the noises, and there was no thing alive to appreciate it. Can you conceive, can you appreciate or fit into your ideas what can be the meaning of a world without a living thing on it? We are so used to looking at the world from the point of view of living things that we cannot understand what it means not to be alive on it. And in most places in the universe today there probably is nothing alive. [29] Or life itself. The internal machinery of life, the chemistry of the parts, is something beautiful. And it turns out that all life is interconnected with all other life. There is a part of chlorophyll, an important chemical in the oxygen processes in plants, that has a kind of square pattern; it is a rather pretty ring called a benzine ring. And far removed from the plants are animals like ourselves, and in our oxygen-containing systems, in the blood, the hemoglobin, there are the same interesting and peculiar square rings. There is iron in the center of them instead of magnesium, so they are not green but red, but they are the same rings. [30] The proteins of bacteria and the proteins of humans are the same. In fact it has recently been found that the protein-making machinery in the bacteria can be given orders from material from the red cells to produce red cell proteins. So close is life to life. The universality of the deep chemistry of living things is indeed a fantastic and beautiful thing. And all the time we human beings have been too proud even to recognize our kinship with the animals. [31] Or there are atoms. Beautiful - mile upon mile of one ball after another ball in some repeating pattern in a crystal. Things that look quiet and still, like a glass of water with a covered top that has been sitting for several days, are active all the time; the atoms are leaving the surface, bouncing around inside, and coming back. What looks still to our crude eyes is a wild and dynamic dance. [32] And, again, it has been discovered that all the world is made of the same atoms, that the stars are of the same stuff as ourselves. It then becomes a question of where our stuff came from. Not just where did life come from, or where did the earth come from, but where did the stuff of life and of the earth come from? It looks as if it was belched from some exploding star, much as some of the stars are exploding now. So this piece of dirt waits four and a half billion years and evolves and changes, and now a strange creature stands here with instruments and talks to the strange creatures in the audience. What a wonderful world! [33] Or take the physiology of human beings. It makes no difference what I talk about. If you look closely enough at anything, you will see that there is nothing more exciting than the truth, the pay dirt of the scientist, discovered by his painstaking efforts. [34] In physiology you can think of pumping blood, the exciting movements of a girl jumping a rope. What goes on inside? The blood pumping, the interconnecting nerves - how quickly the influences of the muscle nerves feed right back to the brain to say, "Now we have touched the ground, now increase the tension so I do not hurt the heels." And as the girl dances up and down, there is another set of muscles that is fed from another set of nerves that says, "One, two, three, O'Leary, one, two, ." And while she does that, perhaps she smiles at the professor of physiology who is watching her. That is involved, too! [35] And then electricity. The forces of attraction, of plus and minus, are so strong that in any normal substance all the plusses and minuses are carefully balanced out, everything pulled together with everything else. For a long time no one even noticed the phenomenon of electricity, except once in a while when they rubbed a piece of amber and it attracted a piece of paper. And yet today we find, by playing with these things, that we have a tremendous amount of machinery inside. Yet science is still not thoroughly appreciated. [36] To give an example, I read Faraday's Chemical History of a Candle, a set of six Christmas lectures for children. The point of Faraday's lectures was that no matter what you look at, if you look at it closely enough, you are involved in the entire universe. And so he got, by looking at every feature of the candle, into combustion, chemistry, etc. But the introduction of the book, in describing Faraday's life and some of his discoveries, explained that he had discovered that the amount of electricity necessary to perform electrolysis of chemical substances is proportional to the number of atoms which are separated divided by the valence. It further explained that the principles he discovered are used today in chrome plating and the anodic coloring of aluminum, as well as in dozens of other industrial applications. I do not like that statement. Here is what Faraday said about his own discovery: "The atoms of matter are in some ways endowed or associated with electrical powers, to which they owe their most striking qualities, amongst them their mutual chemical affinity." He had discovered that the thing that determined how the atoms went together, the thing that determined the combinations of iron and oxygen which make iron oxide is that some of them are electrically plus and some of them are electrically minus, and they attract each other in definite proportions. He also discovered that electricity comes in units, in atoms. Both were important discoveries, but most exciting was that this was one of the most dramatic moments in the history of science, one of those rare moments when two great fields come together and are unified. He suddenly found that two apparently different things were different aspects of the same thing. Electricity was being studied, and chemistry was being studied. Suddenly they were two aspects of the same thing - chemical changes with the results of electrical forces. And they are still understood that way. So to say merely that the principles are used in chrome plating is inexcusable. [37] And the newspapers, as you know, have a standard line for every discovery made in physiology today: "The discoverer said that the discovery may have uses in the cure of cancer." But they cannot explain the value of the thing itself. [38] Trying to understand the way nature works involves a most terrible test of human reasoning ability. It involves subtle trickery, beautiful tightropes of logic on which one has to walk in order not to make a mistake in predicting what will happen. The quantum mechanical and the relativity ideas are examples of this. [39] The third aspect of my subject is that of science as a method of finding things out. This method is based on the principle that observation is the judge of whether something is so or not. All other aspects and characteristics of science can be understood directly when we understand that observation is the ultimate and final judge of the truth of an idea. But "prove" used in this way really means "test", in the same way that hundred-proof alcohol is a test of the alcohol, and for people today the idea really should be translated as, "The exception tests the rule." Or, put another way, "The exception proves that the rule is wrong". That is the principle of science. If there is an exception to any rule, and if it can be proved by observation, that rule is wrong. [40] The exceptions to any rule are most interesting in themselves, for they show us that the old rule is wrong. And it is most exciting, then, to find out what the right rule, if any, is. The exception is studied, along with other conditions that produce similar effects. The scientist tries to find more exceptions and to determine the characteristics of the exceptions, a process that is continually exciting as it develops. He does not try to avoid showing that the rules are wrong; there is progress and excitement in the exact opposite. He tries to prove himself wrong as quickly as possible. [41] The principle that observation is the judge imposes a severe limitation to the kind of questions that can be answered. They are limited to questions that you can put this way: "if I do this, what will happen?" There are ways to try it and see. Questions like, "should I do this?" and "what is the value of this?" are not of the same kind. [42] But if a thing is not scientific, it cannot be subjected to the test of observation, this does not mean that it is dead, or wrong, or stupid. We are not trying to argue that science is somehow good and other things are somehow not good. Scientists take all those things that can be analysed by observation, and thus the things called science are found out. But there are some things left out, for which the method does not work. This does not mean that those things are unimportant. They are, in fact, in many ways the most important. In any decision for action, when you have to make up your mind what to do, there is always a "should" involved, and this cannot be worked out from "if I do this, what will happen?" alone. You say, "Sure, you see what will happen, and then you decide whether you want it to happen or not." But that is the step the scientists cannot take. You can figure out what is going to happen, but then you have to decide whether you like it that way or not. [43] There are in science a number of technical consequences that follow from the principle of observation as judge. For example, the observation cannot be rough. You have to be very careful. There may have been a piece of dirt in the apparatus that made the color change; it was not what you thought. You had to check the observations very carefully, and then recheck them, to be sure that you understand what all the conditions are and that you did not misinterpret what you did. [44] It is interesting that this thoroughness, which is a virtue, is often misunderstood. When someone says a thing has been done scientifically, often all he means is that it has been done thoroughly. I have heard people talk of the "scientific" extermination of the Jews in Germany. There was nothing scientific about it. It was only thorough. There was no question of making observations and then checking them in order to determine something. In that sense, there were "scientific" exterminations of people in Roman times and in other periods when science was not so far developed as it is today and not much attention was paid to observation. In such cases, people should say "thorough" or "thoroughgoing," instead of "scientific". [45] There are a number of special techniques associated with the game of making observations, and much of what is called the philosophy of science is concerned with a discussion of these techniques. The interpretation of a result is an example. To take a trivial instance, there is a famous joke about a man who complains to a friend of a mysterious phenomenon. The white horses on his farm eat more than the black horses. He worries about this and cannot understand it, until his friend suggests that maybe he has more white horses than black ones. [46] It sounds ridiculous, but think how many times similar mistakes are made in judgments of various kinds. You say, "My sister had a cold, and in two weeks ." It is one of those cases, if you think about it, in which there were more white horses. Scientific reasoning requires a certain discipline, and we should try to teach this discipline, because even on the lowest level such errors are unnecessary today. [47] Another important characteristic of science is its objectivity. It is necessary to look at the results of observation objectively, because you, the experimenter, might like one result better than the other. You perform the experiment several times, and because of irregularity, like pieces of dirt falling in, the result varies from time to time. You do not have everything under control. You like the result to be a certain way, so the times it comes out that way, you say, "See, it comes out this particular way." The next time you do the experiment it comes out different. Maybe there was a piece of dirt in it the first time, but you ignore it, [48] These things seem obvious, but people do not pay enough attention to them in deciding scientific questions or questions on the periphery of science. There could be a certain amount of sense, for example, in the way you analyse the question of whether stocks went up or down because of what the President said or did not say. [49] Another very important technical point is that the more specific a rule is, the more interesting it is. The more definite the statement, the more interesting it is to test. If someone were to propose that the planets go around the sun because all planet matter has a kind of tendency for movement, a kind of motility, let us call it an "oomph," this theory could explain a number of other phenomena as well. So this is a good theory, is it not? No. It is nowhere near as good as a proposition that the planets move around the sun under the influence of a central force which varies exactly inversely as the square of the distance from the center. The second theory is better because it is so specific; it is so obviously unlikely to be the result of chance. It is so definite that the barest error in the movement can show that it is wrong; but the planets could wobble all over the place, and, according to the first theory, you could say, "Well, that is the funny behavior of the 'oomph.'" [50] So the more specific the rule, the more powerful it is, the more liable it is to exceptions, and the more interesting and valuable it is to check. [51] Words can be meaningless. If they are used in such a way that no sharp conclusions can be drawn, as in my example of "oomph," then the proposition they state is almost meaningless, because you can explain almost anything by the assertion that things have a tendency to motility. A great deal has been made of this by philosophers, who say that words must be defined extremely precisely. Actually, I disagree somewhat with this; I think that extreme precision of definition is often not worthwhile, and sometimes it is not possible - in fact mostly it is not possible, but I will not get into that argument here. [52] Most of what many philosophers say about science is really on the technical aspects involved in trying to make sure the method works pretty well. Whether these technical points would be useful in a field in which observation is not the judge I have no idea. I am not going to say that everything has to be done the same way when a method of testing different from observation is used. In a different field perhaps it is not so important to be careful of the meaning of words or that the rules be specific, and so on. I do not know. [53] In all of this I have left out something very important. I have said that observation is the judge of the truth of an idea. But where does the idea come from? The rapid progress and development of science requires that human beings invent something to test. [54] It was thought in the Middle Ages that people simply make many observations, and the observations themselves suggest the laws. But it does not work that way. It takes much more imagination than that. So the next thing we have to talk about is where the new ideas come from. Actually, it does not make any difference, as long as they come. We have a way of checking whether an idea is correct or not that has nothing to do with where it came from. We simply test it against observation. So in science we are not interested in where an idea comes from. We simply test it against observation. So in science we are not interested in where an idea comes from. [55] There is no authority who decides what is a good idea. We have lost the need to go to an authority to find out whether an idea is true or not. We can read an authority and let him suggest something; we can try it out and find out if its true or not. If it is not true, so much the worse - so the "authorities" lose some of their "authority". [56] The relations among scientists were at first very argumentative, as they are among most people. This was true in the early days of physics, for example. But in physics today the relations are extremely good. A scientific argument is likely to involve a great deal of laughter and uncertainty on both sides, with both sides thinking up experiments and offering to bet on the outcome. In physics there are so many accumulated observations that it is almost impossible to think of a new idea which is different from all the ideas that have been thought of before and yet that agrees with all the observations that have already been made. And so if you get anything new from anyone, anywhere, you welcome it, and you do not argue why the other person says it is so. [57] Many sciences have not developed this far, and the situation is the way it was in the early days of physics, when there was a lot of arguing because there was so many observations. I bring this up because it is interesting that human relationships, if there is an independent way of judging truth, can be unargumentative. [58] Most people find it surprising that in science there is no interest in the background of the author of an idea or in his motive in expounding it. You listen, and if it sounds like a thing worth trying, a thing that could be tried, is different, and is not obviously contrary to something observed before, it gets exciting and worthwhile. You do not have to worry about how long he has studied or why he wants you to listen to him. In that sense it makes no difference where the ideas come from. Their real origin is unknown; we call it the imagination of the human brain, the creative imagination - it is known; it is just one of those "oomphs." [59] It is surprising that people do not believe that there is imagination in science. It is a very interesting kind of imagination, unlike that of the artist. The great difficulty is in trying to imagine something that you have never seen, that is consistent in every detail with what has already been seen, and is different from what has been thought of; furthermore, it must be definite and not a vague proposition. That is indeed difficult. [60] Incidentally, the fact that there are rules at all to be checked is a kind of miracle; that it is possible to find a rule, like the inverse square law of gravitation, is some sort of miracle. It is not understood at all, but it leads to the possibility of prediction - that means it tells you what you would expect to happen in an experiment you have not yet done. [61] It is interesting, and absolutely essential, that the various rules of science be mutually consistent. Since the observations are all the same observations, one rule cannot give one prediction and another rule another prediction. Thus, science is not a specialist business; it is completely universal. I talked about the atoms in physiology; I talked about the atoms in astronomy, electricity, chemistry. They are universal; they must be mutually consistent. You cannot just start off with a new thing that cannot be made of atoms. [62] It is interesting that reason works in guessing at the rules, and the rules, at least in physics, become reduced. I gave an example of the beautiful reduction of the rules in chemistry and electricity into one rule, but there are many more examples. [63] The rules that describe nature seem to be mathematical. This is not a result of the fact that observation is the judge, and it is not a characteristic necessity of science that it be mathematical. It just turns out that you can state mathematical laws, in physics at least, which work to make powerful predictions. Why nature is mathematical is, again, a mystery. [64] I come now to an important point. The old laws may be wrong. How can an observation be incorrect? If it has been carefully checked, how can it be wrong? Why are physicists always having to change the laws? The answer is, first, that the laws are not the observations and, second that experiments are always inaccurate. The laws are guessed laws, extrapolations, not something that the observations insist upon. They are just good guesses that have gone through the sieve so far. And it turns out later that the sieve now has smaller holes than the sieves that were used before, and this time the law is caught. So the laws are guessed; they are extrapolations into the unknown. You do not know what is going to happen, so you take a guess. [65] For example, it was believed - it was discovered - that motion does not affect the weight of a thing - that if you spin a top and weigh it, and then weigh it when it has stopped, it weights the same. That is the result of an observation. But you cannot weigh something to the infinitesimal number of decimal places, parts in a billion. But we now understand that a spinning top weighs more than a top which is not spinning by a few parts in less than a billion. If the top spins fast enough so that the speed of the edges approaches 186,000 miles a second, the weight increase is appreciable - but not until then. The first experiments were performed with tops that spun at speeds much lower than 186,000 miles a second. It seemed then that the mass of the top spinning and not spinning was exactly the same, and someone made a guess that the mass never changes. [66] How foolish! What a fool! It is only a guessed law, an extrapolation. Why did he do something so unscientific? There was nothing unscientific about it; it was only uncertain. It would have been unscientific not to guess. It has to be done because the extrapolations are the only things that have any real value. It is only the principle of what you think will happen in a case you have not tried that is worth knowing about. Knowledge is of no real value if all you can tell me is what happened yesterday. It is necessary to tell what will happen tomorrow if you do something - not only necessary, but fun. Only you must be willing to stick your neck out. [67] Every scientific law, every scientific principle, every statement of the results of an observation is some kind of a summary which leaves out details, because nothing can be stated precisely. The man simply forgot - he should have stated the law "The mass doesn't change much when the speed isn't too high." The game is to make a specific rule and then see if it will go through the sieve. So the specific guess was that the mass never changes at all. Exciting possibility! It does no harm that it turned out not to be the case. It was only uncertain and it does no harm in being uncertain. It is better to say something and not be sure than not to say anything at all. [68] It is necessary and true that all of the things we say in science, all of the conclusions, are uncertain, because they are only conclusions. They are guesses as to what is going to happen, and you cannot know what will happen, because you have not made the most complete experiments. [69] It is curious that the effect on the mass of a spinning top is so small you may say. "Oh, it doesn't make any difference." But to get a law that is right, or at least one that keeps going through the successive sieves, that goes on for many more observations, requires a tremendous intelligence and imagination and a complete revamping of our philosophy, our understanding of space and time. I am referring to the relativity theory. It turns out that the tiny effects that turn up always require the most revolutionary modifications of ideas. [70] Scientists, therefore, are used to dealing with doubt and uncertainty. This experience with doubt and uncertainty is important. I believe that it is of very great value, and one that extends beyond science. I believe that to solve any problem that has never been solved before, you have to leave the door to the unknown ajar. You have to permit the possibility that you do not have it exactly right. Otherwise, if you had made up your mind already, you might not solve it. [71] When the scientist tells you he does not know the answer, he is an ignorant man. When he tells you he has a hunch about how it is going to work, he is uncertain about it. When he is pretty sure of how it is going to work, and he tells you, "This is the way it's going to work, I'll bet," he is still in some doubt. And it is of paramount importance, in order to make progress, that we recognize this ignorance and this doubt. Because we have the doubt, we then propose looking in new directions for new ideas. The rate of the development of science is not the rate at which you make observations alone but, much more important, the rate at which you create new things to test. [72] If we were not able to did not desire to look in any new direction, if we did not have a doubt or recognize ignorance, we would not get any new ideas. There would be nothing worth checking, because we would know what is true. So what we call scientific knowledge today is a body of statements of varying degrees of certainty. Some of them are most unsure; some of them are nearly sure; but none are absolutely certain. Scientists are used to this. Some people say, "How can you live without knowing?" I do not know what they mean. I always live without knowing. That is easy. How do you get to know is what I want to know. [73] This freedom to doubt is an important matter in the sciences and, I believe, in other fields. It was born of struggle. It was a struggle to be permitted to doubt, to be unsure. And I do not want us to forget the importance of the struggle and, by default, to let the thing fall away. I feel a responsibility as a scientist who knows the great value of a satisfactory philosophy of ignorance, and the progress made possible by such a philosophy, progress which is the fruit of freedom of thought. I feel a responsibility to proclaim the value of this freedom and to teach that doubt is not to be feared, but that it is to be welcomed as the possibility of a new potential for human beings. If you know that you are not sure, you have a chance to improve the situation. I want to demand that freedom for future generations. [74] Doubt is clearly a value in the sciences. Whether it is in other fields is an open question and an uncertain matter. I expect in the next lectures to discuss that very point and to try to demonstrate that it is important to doubt and that doubt is not a fearful thing, but a thing of very great value. ---- Posted to the list by Brett Paatsch From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Fri Jan 21 03:04:51 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 14:04:51 +1100 Subject: Meta Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! Message-ID: <02c801c4ff65$f9d62fc0$b8232dcb@homepc> The Exi-chat software just told me an email I sent was too big 44324 bytes instead of 40 KB and is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. So be it. :-) I don't want to spend time now pruning 10%. I'll forward it to Eliezer to whom I was mainly replying anyway. The Feynman lecture post was sort of "support material". Brett Paatsch -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhanson at gmu.edu Fri Jan 21 03:50:23 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 22:50:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> On 1/20/2005, Brett Paatsch wrote: >[When reading Feynmans lecture over the holidays I was struck by how >many of his themes resonated with recent discussions on the Exi-chat list. ... > >Richard Feynman's lecture - The Uncertainty of Science > >April 1963. >----------- >... So in science we are not interested in where an idea comes from. >There is no authority who decides what is a good idea. We have lost the need >to go to an authority to find out whether an idea is true or not. We can >read an authority and let him suggest something; we can try it out and find >out if its true or not. If it is not true, so much the worse - so the >"authorities" lose some of their "authority". ... >In physics there are so many accumulated observations that it is almost >impossible to think of a new idea which is different from all the ideas that >have been thought of before and yet that agrees with all the observations >that have already been made. And so if you get anything new from anyone, >anywhere, you welcome it, and you do not argue why the other person says it >is so. ... >Most people find it surprising that in science there is no interest in the >background of the author of an idea or in his motive in expounding it. You >listen, and if it sounds like a thing worth trying, a thing that could be >tried, is different, and is not obviously contrary to something observed >before, it gets exciting and worthwhile. You do not have to worry about how >long he has studied or why he wants you to listen to him. ... Dear Richard had to be pretty caught up in his rhetoric to say these whoppers. Scientists most definitely pay attention to the people pushing an idea, including how long they have studied. There are in practice more ideas proposed than people have time to evaluate in much detail. So most are rejected (regarding publication, funding, jobs) without knowing whether those ideas conflict with observations or not. There are definitely authorities who decide to reject or not, and they most certainly pay attention to where the advocate comes from when making this decision. And dear Richard knew this full well. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 21 03:54:17 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:54:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates In-Reply-To: <007f01c4ff23$5f4dd0d0$c3eafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <200501210354.j0L3scC05682@tick.javien.com> Less. I hope. s > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Freels > Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2005 11:08 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Air / Car Accident rates > > Does this make them more or less likely to have a crash by the end of the > year? > > From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 21 04:19:24 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 20:19:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science Message-ID: <20050121041924.60518.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sorry to nitpick again, but of course there is nothing alive in "most places" in the universe, even in 1963 everyone knew that. Frankly, if there is a higher form of life in the universe besides ourselves, we might not want to know about it. 'It' might be something hideous; 'it' might not want to know about us. >[28] >And in most places in the > universe today there probably is nothing alive. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 21 05:25:05 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2005 23:25:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] heart deaths fall below cancer Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050120232258.01b21f40@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.cbc.ca/story/science/national/2005/01/20/cancer-050120.html Cancer passes heart disease as top killer in U.S. Last Updated Thu, 20 Jan 2005 14:49:53 EST CBC News WASHINGTON - Cancer has surpassed heart disease for the first time as the top killer of Americans under age 85, the American Cancer Society says. [a particularly stupid way of putting it] More people are surviving both illnesses, but the mortality rate of heart disease is plunging faster. "It's dropping fast enough that another disease is eclipsing it," said Dr. Walter Tsou, president of the American Public Health Association. The cancer society's annual statistical report, released Wednesday, says that 476,009 Americans under 85 died of cancer in 2002, the most recent year for which figures are available. That's slightly more than the 450,637 who succumbed to heart disease. The group predicts that 1.372 million Americans will be diagnosed with cancer in 2005 and more than half a million ? 570,280 ? will die of it. This doesn't include a million cases of two minor forms of skin cancer. The death rate from all cancers has dropped by 1.5 per cent a year since 1993 among men and 0.8 per cent a year since 1992 among women, the report says. It now kills about one in four Americans. The single biggest reason for the cancer death rate's decline is that fewer people are smoking, the report said. Smoking rates plummeted between 1965 to 2002, from 42 per cent to 22 per cent of the adult population. Better screening methods and treatments have also helped keep more people alive, the report says. According to the cancer society, smoking still causes a third of all cancer deaths and obesity, poor diet and lack of exercise cause another third ? all factors that also contribute to heart disease. "We want to send the message: Don't smoke, eat right, exercise and maintain normal weight, and see your doctor for normal checkups," said Dr. Harmon Eyre, the cancer society's chief medical officer. In 2005, the society predicts there will be: * 163,510 deaths from lung cancer. * 56,290 deaths from colon cancer. * 40,870 deaths from breast cancer. * 30,350 deaths from prostate cancer. * 19,200 deaths from non-Hodgkin's lymphoma. * 7,770 deaths from melanoma. From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 21 08:11:29 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 03:11:29 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <41F0B931.2050202@pobox.com> Robin Hanson wrote: >> >> April 1963. ----------- ... So in science we are not interested in >> where an idea comes from. There is no authority who decides what is a >> good idea. We have lost the need to go to an authority to find out >> whether an idea is true or not. We can read an authority and let him >> suggest something; we can try it out and find out if its true or not. >> If it is not true, so much the worse - so the "authorities" lose some >> of their "authority". ... In physics there are so many accumulated >> observations that it is almost impossible to think of a new idea which >> is different from all the ideas that have been thought of before and >> yet that agrees with all the observations that have already been made. >> And so if you get anything new from anyone, anywhere, you welcome it, >> and you do not argue why the other person says it is so. ... Most >> people find it surprising that in science there is no interest in the >> background of the author of an idea or in his motive in expounding it. >> You listen, and if it sounds like a thing worth trying, a thing that >> could be tried, is different, and is not obviously contrary to >> something observed before, it gets exciting and worthwhile. You do not >> have to worry about how long he has studied or why he wants you to >> listen to him. ... > > Dear Richard had to be pretty caught up in his rhetoric to say these > whoppers. Scientists most definitely pay attention to the people pushing > an idea, including how long they have studied. There are in practice > more ideas proposed than people have time to evaluate in much detail. > So most are rejected (regarding publication, funding, jobs) without > knowing whether those ideas conflict with observations or not. There > are definitely authorities who decide to reject or not, and they most > certainly pay attention to where the advocate comes from when making > this decision. And dear Richard knew this full well. Evidently dear Richard was expounding upon the Way, upon Science as distinct from academia, and perhaps lost his way and began to speak as if the ideal had already become reality. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From amara at amara.com Sat Jan 22 08:21:56 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:21:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] re: a Titanic blooper Message-ID: BillK: >I think it's called human error, Damien. There's a lot of it about. >"Southwood says it isn't important who omitted the crucial >instruction, because the responsibility runs wider than that: the >error should have been picked up during checks. ESA is now mounting an >investigation into why the mistake was not spotted." >Anything that involves humans will have errors. That's why peer review >and backup checks are so important. If you are an expert, that just >means you make a better class of mistake. This looks to me like the several errors happened because there are usually checks. I don't know yet the details of how ESA handles spacecraft command sequences (I'm just beginning to learn), but there are always checks. If the instrument team is responsible for generating the high level commands, and the same people or JPL/ESA-center/whoever is responsible for generating the low level commands (there are several "low" levels), the sequence is checked again at the low-level end. I think that the instrument team should have checked this in addition to whichever department at ESA (ESOC?) did the lower-level commands. So then, here, might be a lot of human error. :-( Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 21 09:10:19 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 04:10:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <41F0B931.2050202@pobox.com> References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <41F0B931.2050202@pobox.com> Message-ID: <41F0C6FB.4070504@pobox.com> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Robin Hanson wrote: >> >> Dear Richard had to be pretty caught up in his rhetoric to say these >> whoppers. Scientists most definitely pay attention to the people pushing >> an idea, including how long they have studied. There are in practice >> more ideas proposed than people have time to evaluate in much detail. >> So most are rejected (regarding publication, funding, jobs) without >> knowing whether those ideas conflict with observations or not. There >> are definitely authorities who decide to reject or not, and they most >> certainly pay attention to where the advocate comes from when making >> this decision. And dear Richard knew this full well. > > Evidently dear Richard was expounding upon the Way, upon Science as > distinct from academia, and perhaps lost his way and began to speak as > if the ideal had already become reality. Although, reading through the lecture, I find that Feynman said only that there was freedom in physics, and he contrasted physics to other sciences which he said were not so advanced. From what I have heard this egalitarianism is not the state in physics today, but maybe in the 1950s it was so. I was not there, and I am not a physicist. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jan 21 11:38:32 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:38:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <20050121001343.4551.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050120211045.257.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <20050121001343.4551.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050121113832.GU9221@leitl.org> On Thu, Jan 20, 2005 at 04:13:43PM -0800, Ned Late wrote: > How much is it at this time to send each pound into > space? The cheapest LEO launch seem to be around 1.5 k$/lb (3.4 k$/kg). GTO is considerably more expensive (about 7 k$/lb). Right now Au is about 13.6 k$/kg. Of course, satellites are considerably more expensive than mere dumb gold. > Can robots mine asteroids for platinum & gold? Self-replicating lunar factories operation costs: zero. Linear motor launch reaction mass: zero. Having a kiloton of titanium widgets airdropped to your GPS coordinates: priceless. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Fri Jan 21 12:53:50 2005 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 07:53:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Transhumanist Caucus within the Transnational Radical Party In-Reply-To: <200501181200.j0IC06k9010858@mail2.bltc.net> References: <200501181200.j0IC06k9010858@mail2.bltc.net> Message-ID: <7F8BA392-6BAB-11D9-82FB-0030654881D2@HarveyNewstrom.com> I had never heard of the Transnational Radical Party either, so I did a little Googling. They might be too radical for some tastes. The UN Committee on NGO's recommended a 3-year suspension for the TRP group because of accusations of supporting terrorists. The United States and nine other countries agreed with this suspension. The TRP denies the accusation, and keeps accrediting one member of its general council, Mr. Kok Ksor, to UN meetings even though the UN has repeatedly asked them to stop. Both the UN and the United States have the group on their watch lists. Both the United States and the UN have actively opposed this group in the past. I found a story from 2003 that describes the TRP distributing illegal drugs to protest the War on Drugs. Although this might be a legitimate cause, it is a radical step to officially participate in the distribution of illegal drugs as a form of political protest. There are also numerous references to this group as being started to promote religious freedom and then expanding into other areas later. This seems to be their primary mission, with politics being an item related to religious freedom. So they may be concerned with religion first and politics second, or vice-versa. Is this our interest in them? I am not sure they have any interest in technology or transhumanism in return. See for the story. See for TRP's version See for a current update. See for a description of the TRP distributing illegal drugs to protest the War on Drugs. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP, ISSAP, ISSMP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From mail at HarveyNewstrom.com Fri Jan 21 13:32:34 2005 From: mail at HarveyNewstrom.com (Harvey Newstrom) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:32:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: extropy-chat Digest, Vol 16, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <200501211322.j0LDM6C03296@tick.javien.com> References: <200501211322.j0LDM6C03296@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Jan 21, 2005, at 8:22 AM, "mike99" wrote: > Giulio, > Yes, I quite agree with your characterization of Fukuyama's objections > to > transhumanism as sounding "like the objections of a child who does not > want > to grow into a teen, or a teen who is afraid of growing into an adult." > > We have a name for this phenomenon. It is based on a classic of British > children's literature. It is called the "Peter Pan Syndrome." Interesting. I have heard the same comment in reverse. I am frequently told that I have the "Peter Pan Syndrome" because I don't want to grow up, grow old, and die. I want to stay young forever. -- Harvey Newstrom CISSP, ISSAP, ISSMP, CISA, CISM, IAM, IBMCP, GSEC From rhanson at gmu.edu Fri Jan 21 13:37:54 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:37:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <41F0C6FB.4070504@pobox.com> References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <41F0B931.2050202@pobox.com> <41F0C6FB.4070504@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050121083533.02dfe2e0@mail.gmu.edu> On 1/21/2005, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: >Although, reading through the lecture, I find that Feynman said only that >there was freedom in physics, and he contrasted physics to other sciences >which he said were not so advanced. From what I have heard this >egalitarianism is not the state in physics today, but maybe in the 1950s >it was so. I was not there, and I am not a physicist. And maybe in Camelot, it never did rain until after sundown, and by eight a.m. the morning fog had flown. I was not there. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 21 17:27:03 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:27:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050121083533.02dfe2e0@mail.gmu.edu> References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <41F0B931.2050202@pobox.com> <41F0C6FB.4070504@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050121083533.02dfe2e0@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <41F13B67.9010600@pobox.com> Robin Hanson wrote: > On 1/21/2005, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > >> Although, reading through the lecture, I find that Feynman said only >> that there was freedom in physics, and he contrasted physics to other >> sciences which he said were not so advanced. From what I have heard >> this egalitarianism is not the state in physics today, but maybe in >> the 1950s it was so. I was not there, and I am not a physicist. > > And maybe in Camelot, it never did rain until after sundown, and by > eight a.m. the morning fog had flown. I was not there. Once upon a time, Einstein sent in his papers, and they were published. The physicists of that era must have done something right. Feynman's claim could not possibly have been meant in an absolute sense, that there was *zero* attention to personality. But I can imagine that Feynman was approximately right. Physics is a pretty technical endeavor, the most technical of them all. Maybe you really could pay attention just to the equations and results, and not who said them. I don't think that it is this way now, from what I have heard. But I also doubt that Einstein could have happened today. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 21 19:52:31 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 11:52:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <001a01c4ff0a$32d719d0$bcff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20050121195231.14901.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > "Samantha Atkins" > > > I know more than a few very high IQ people whose > > mental powers are confined largely to trivia and the > > creation and maintenance of very convoluted > > and intricate neuroses. > > That's true but not surprising; it would be surprising if the most > complicated thing in the universe, intelligence, could be described > by just one number when you need a vector to do the same for > something as simple as the wind. For brains I imagine you'd need a > tensor, and a big one. The problem with Samantha's statement is that accomplishment is a function of IQ AND the motivation to pursue higher education. Higher education alone can't make a moron brilliant but a lack of it in a genius can be clearly created by stunting the motivation of the brilliant kid. It is why most genius kids in the public schools are typically diagnosed as learning disabled because they are so damn bored with the pap and BS being palavered. That the public schools do this is not an accident. The government child warehouse and indoctrination centers want to chemically castrate the frontal lobes of those with the greatest ability to imagine and inquire, question and contest authority. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 21 20:49:44 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 12:49:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <20050120211045.257.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050121204944.7030.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- "Terry W. Colvin" wrote: > > But there is > > no money to be gained - at least in the short to > > medium term - from the > > pursuit of knowledge which underlies the sending of > > unmanned missions to > > Saturn, Titan and so on. What else could we get from > > these places? Even > > if they turned out to have interesting minerals, it > > wouldn't be > > cost-effective to ship them in bulk back to earth. > > (There go all those > > SF films about miners in space....) > > Actually, it might be cost-effective to ship platinum > and similar precious metals back from asteroids: More than that. A ferrous asteroid delivered to LEO 1 km in dia would be worth several trillion dollars. A private venture could deliver one for less than a few billion dollars and 10 years lead time. Precious metals would be present in such asteroids, but only in such quantities to be of interest to smugglers working on mining/refining them in orbit. There was a Jerry Pournelle novel on this subject years ago... Venous metals deposits are not typical of asteroids, as metal and other mineral veins found on earth are generally an artifact of hydrothermal leaching processes. Asteroids instead accrete material based on the orbits they are in, with higher volatility materials accreting at greater distance from the sun. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 21 21:20:42 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 16:20:42 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050121195231.14901.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050121195231.14901.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41F1722A.8070707@pobox.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > > That the public schools do this is > not an accident. The government child warehouse and indoctrination > centers want to chemically castrate the frontal lobes of those with the > greatest ability to imagine and inquire, question and contest authority. Don't be ridiculous. Attribute ye not to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity, greed, and bad organizational incentives. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From neommox at yahoo.com Fri Jan 21 23:11:36 2005 From: neommox at yahoo.com (Brian Campbell) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution and an Inquiry about SMI2LE Message-ID: <20050121231136.67294.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution and an Inquiry Concerning Aspects of Knowledge Specific to Leary's SMI2LE Theory A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution I choose here to speak my mind because I am finding it more and more difficult to discuss and advance my theories. I know less than 6 people who are interested and advanced enough to really stimulate my mind. Revelations are becoming fewer and further between ever passing day and i grow more and more bored. I know of no better place to find the stimulation i need than here. I seek your knowledge and wisdom. I have read the extropy chat and have been really apprehensive about posting because i fear rejection by those older and more intelligent thinkers whom i respect so much. I would ask u try to look over my grammar errors. I have tried my best to make this as legible as possible. Now on with the show. I seek to absorb all the knowledge i can, process it , and spread it too all that are interested. I seek knowledge in every form I can, from writings of all kinds, experience (my own and anyone else's who chooses to share), and conversations/debates. I take in this information , process it based on my previous info, and use it as much as I can to further my understanding of the nature of everything. I share all I know in hopes of getting feedback on alternate points of view, flaws in my theories, and/or new connections/possibilities. This is the meaning of my life. I tell u this here because it is the most meaningful thing I can see in life and in hopes that someone reading this will be inspired or at the very least that this will get them to thinking. I am what Leary calls an Intelligence Agent, and this is my call to arms. In my opinion, (as everything i say is, of course. so i wont bother stating this further) the purpose of all things in our known universe is to evolve. Our universe is a system, not unlike an exponentially more large and complex computer than those we have created. It is a self-evolving system based on some fundamental rules. As the system gets more complex, there is much more potential in the system for positivity and negativity (in this case just think of it as simply evolution and de-evolution respectively, as i don't feel this is the time or place to go further into my theories on chaotic positivity and negativity). This increase in positive/negative potential cannot be avoided. It is the reward/cost of evolution. All things go through the process of the metaphysical trinity (dynamism, stasis, entropy, and back to dynamism). This process ensures that all things grow until they reach a barrier or limit of some kind (current technology or information, for instance). They then break down when a new possibility becomes available (certain old aspects in favor of new "potentially" better aspects, survival of the fittest, if u will) allowing for further growth and expansion. The universe has reached a point were it has created a system advanced enough for creative/ complex thought and a free will beyond anything else we currently know of (a stage in which the universe "computer" has created AI). Being the most advanced (as far as we know) system in this universe we have been given the greatest power for change (by system here I mean the human race). Our job (our meaning of life) is to further the evolution of all we can. We will do this one way or the other, consciously or not.The question is do u actively participate (to greatly speed up the evolution) or do u passively ride the chaos at the whim of whoever/whatever chooses to act upon u ? This is a question of power. Do u control or be controlled?Are u a shepherd or a sheep? Do you blissfully sleep or take active part in the greatest adventure of our times? Of course, thats only my 2 cents. Take it as u will. An Inquiry Concerning Aspects of Knowledge Specific to Leary's SMI2LE Theory I am requesting your help to further SMI2LE (SM= space migration, I2= intelligence increase, LE= life expectancy ). I have made a list of the areas of study that i feel would be most beneficial to the I2 and LE parts (the 2 of most interest to myself) . I was hoping to get your opinions and any info u know on the subjects as it relates to SMI2LE or resources (online preferably) where I could find the info for myself. I am researching this because i want to eventually get into one of these areas as a career so i can do my best to further SMI2LE. Here is my list with brief details on the parts of the field i find most important. Thank you in advance for any comments/help u may offer. 1) Biochemistry (the cell-chemical relations inside the human body) 2) Neurology (structure and development on the cellular level) 3) Free radicals and other things that influence DNA/cells entropy or growth 4) DNA ( structure/development/breakdown/manipulation. to "force" biological evolution through manipulation) 5) Biomechanics ( biological and mechanical interface/interaction. to electronically/mechanically evolve mental/physical capabilities) 6) Nanotechnology (research/development , function/use theories, development problems/solutions) Neommox at yahoo.com --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 21 23:12:26 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:12:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <41F1722A.8070707@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20050121231226.89655.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > That the public schools do this is > > not an accident. The government child warehouse and indoctrination > > centers want to chemically castrate the frontal lobes of those with > the > > greatest ability to imagine and inquire, question and contest > authority. > > Don't be ridiculous. Attribute ye not to malice what can be > adequately > explained by stupidity, greed, and bad organizational incentives. If we didn't have the bastards on record stating their goals, I might agree with you. John Taylor Gatto documents the conspiracy quite completely. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dgc at cox.net Sat Jan 22 01:00:32 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:00:32 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <20050121113832.GU9221@leitl.org> References: <20050120211045.257.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <20050121001343.4551.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050121113832.GU9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41F1A5B0.30009@cox.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jef at jefallbright.net Sat Jan 22 01:31:17 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 17:31:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution and an Inquiry about SMI2LE In-Reply-To: <20050121231136.67294.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050121231136.67294.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41F1ACE5.8010308@jefallbright.net> Brian Campbell wrote: > ** > > I choose here to speak my mind because I am finding it more and more > difficult to discuss and advance my theories. I know less than 6 > people who are interested and advanced enough to really stimulate my > mind. Revelations are becoming fewer and further between ever passing > day and i grow more and more bored. I know of no better place to find > the stimulation i need than here. I seek your knowledge and wisdom. I > have read the extropy chat and have been really apprehensive about > posting because i fear rejection by those older and more intelligent > thinkers whom i respect so much. > Brian, I think you'll find the Extropy list is a welcoming - but critical - forum for the kind of thinking you describe. Regarding the possibility of rejection, posting only in plain text will help to a degree that may surprising, considering how much we generally appreciate all the bells and whistles of technology. > I seek to absorb all the knowledge i can, process it , and spread it > too all that are interested. I seek knowledge in every form I can, > from writings of all kinds, experience (my own and anyone else's who > chooses to share), and conversations/debates. I take in this > information , process it based on my previous info, and use it as much > as I can to further my understanding of the nature of everything. I > share all I know in hopes of getting feedback on alternate points of > view, flaws in my theories, and/or new connections/possibilities. This > is the meaning of my life. I tell u this here because it is the most > meaningful thing I can see in life and in hopes that someone reading > this will be inspired or at the very least that this will get them to > thinking. I am what Leary calls an Intelligence Agent, and this is my > call to arms. > > In my opinion, (as everything i say is, of course. so i wont bother > stating this further) the purpose of all things in our known universe > is to evolve. > I think it may be more accurate to say that systems, not individual things, tend to evolve, and do you really consider this to be purposeful? If so, who or what is the agent that follows that purpose? On the other hand, I suspect you may have been making a value statement, rather than meaning literally that evolution has a purpose. > Our universe is a system, not unlike an exponentially more large and > complex computer than those we have created. It is a self-evolving > system based on some fundamental rules. As the system gets more > complex, there is much more potential in the system for positivity and > negativity (in this case just think of it as simply evolution and > de-evolution respectively, as i don't feel this is the time or place > to go further into my theories on chaotic positivity and negativity). > This increase in positive/negative potential cannot be avoided. It is > the reward/cost of evolution. > Ascribing negative/positive values to the workings of nature smacks of the common but less than rigorous dichotomies of Good versus Evil, or Love versus Fear and usually hints that it might be useful to broaden one's views toward the more objective. You might want to clarify what you really mean by unavoidable positive/negative potential of evolving systems. > All things go through the process of the metaphysical trinity > (dynamism, stasis, entropy, and back to dynamism). This process > ensures that all things grow until they reach a barrier or limit of > some kind (current technology or information, for instance). They then > break down when a new possibility becomes available (certain old > aspects in favor of new "potentially" better aspects, survival of the > fittest, if u will) allowing for further growth and expansion. > There's a fine line between metaphysical and mystical. The trinity you speak of might be less mystically described as the stages of growth and eventual decline that we observe with many subsystems, explainable in terms of economics and/or physics, often while the larger system ratchets its way from one metastable state to another. I think you're making some good observations, but I would suggest that what appears to be a metaphysical trinity is actually the mundane and explainable behavior of some, but not all, complex systems. > The universe has reached a point were it has created a system advanced > enough for creative/ complex thought and a free will beyond anything > else we currently know of (a stage in which the universe "computer" > has created AI). > I agree that we humans have the greatest degree of free will currently known, and it's important to note that our free will continues to increase with our increasing understanding of how our universe works. Greater understanding -> greater predictability -> greater freedom. > Being the most advanced (as far as we know) system in this universe we > have been given the greatest power for change (by system here I mean > the human race). Our job (our meaning of life) is to further the > evolution of all we can. > I suspect you'll run into trouble generalizing the meaning of life for all us, but I think it's an admirable choice. I'll cut my comments here, except to ask why you spell out all words except "you". It's a bit distracting. Thanks for your first post to the list! - Jef From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 22 03:00:36 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 20:00:36 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: a Titanic blooper [Cassini-Huygens] Message-ID: <41F1C1D4.97CAE5AC@mindspring.com> --- In forteana at yahoogroups.com, Roy Stilling wrote: > "Scientists now say that missing data can be recovered via a network > of radio telescopes that listened for Huygens' signals as it plunged > through Titan's atmosphere and settled on the surface on 14 January." That refers to the Doppler wind measurements - the experiment wasn't switched on due to a coding error, but luckily the radio telescopes picked up enough of the signal to calculate the effects of the wind. Some photos were lost, but they were not transmitted on both channels - they took the chance that both channels would operate. Almost all other data was transmitted with full redundancy. Essentially, if they wanted the photos so badly they should have arranged for them to be transmitted on both channels - but even then they'd still only be able to send 350 pictures in total (they received 350 on the one operating channel). Rob whose signature now sits on titan -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 22 06:28:03 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:28:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: public schools In-Reply-To: <20050121195231.14901.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050122062803.81117.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Doesn't this mediocre public school situation also filter in from parents who want their 'kiddies' umbilically connected to them until the parents' death? You see the cover story in the current issue of Newspeak? (or Slime, I forget which), on Children Who Stay At Home After They Grow Up "...it is because the parents secretly want it that way...". Oh no kidding; we need an overpriced magazine to tell us so? > That the public > schools do this is > not an accident. The government child warehouse and > indoctrination > centers want to chemically castrate the frontal > lobes of those with the > greatest ability to imagine and inquire, question > and contest authority. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My > Yahoo! > http://my.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 22 06:30:07 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:30:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Stalinist transgender 'warrior' In-Reply-To: <20050122061223.16066.qmail@web51608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050122063007.81855.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Here is a link from the Betterhumans Site: http://www.transgenderwarrior.org/activism/ With friends like transgender Stalinists, we wont need enemies. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 22 06:35:19 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2005 22:35:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <41F1722A.8070707@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20050122063520.2725.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Naturally you don't want to hear from me, Eliezer, but where do "bad organizational [dis]incentives" derive from? >--- Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Don't be ridiculous. Attribute ye not to malice > what can be adequately > explained by stupidity, greed, and bad > organizational incentives. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Jan 22 08:59:26 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 19:59:26 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> Message-ID: <001e01c50060$acd24910$b8232dcb@homepc> Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Brett Paatsch wrote: > > > > "Imagine that you wake up one morning and your left arm > > has been replaced by a blue tentacle. The blue tentacle > > obeys your motor commands - you can use it to pick up > > glasses, drive a car, etc. How would you explain this > > hypothetical scenario? Take a moment to ponder this > > puzzle before continuing." > > > > So I did imagine it. I imagined it in good faith, and I imagined it > > consistent with a spirit of exploration and good will built that Eliezer > > had established through the early part of his essay. > > What about the spirit of cunning plots and mischief? That's less scarce. > I'm trying to forge rationality into a new and more coherent art, > reusing my l33t build-a-mind-from-scratch skillz to go beyond that > accumulated handicraft of rationality passed down from generation > to generation. Good stuff. But "l33t" is just arbitrary to me. > > I wrote (and I quote): > > > > "I'd "explain" it provisionally as some surprising organisation > > of people had entered my house and replaced my arm whilst > > I slept with technology I didn't know existed. > > > > I'd be bewildered. Frightened even. But I'd not think "magic" > > had occurred". > > And then, with the heightened curiosity of one who has escalated > > their commitment I went back to see what Eliezer the Bayesian, > > Eliezer the spreader-of-analogical-probability-clay-mass would have > > done. > > > > And he'd written this. > > > > "How would I explain the event of my left arm being replaced > > by a blue tentacle? The answer is that I wouldn't. It isn't going > > to happen." > The ideal of traditional rationality is that reality is allowed to tell > you anything it wants, and you ought to shut up and listen - a stance > arising from the sad human tendency to deny experimental evidence > when it conflicts with something more valuable, like hope or authority. Or as Feynman ([para 39] in accompanying post) said: "This method [science] is based on the principle that observation is the judge of whether something is so or not. All other aspects and characteristics of science can be understood directly when we understand that observation is the ultimate and final judge of the truth of an idea. But "prove" used in this way really means "test", in the same way that hundred-proof alcohol is a test of the alcohol, and for people today the idea really should be translated as, "The exception tests the rule." Or, put another way, "The exception proves that the rule is wrong". That is the principle of science. If there is an exception to any rule, and if it can be proved by observation, that rule is wrong." > .. The hypothesis of conservation of momentum is that momentum is > conserved 100.00000% of the time. We may be uncertain, but the hypothesis > of "conservation of momentum" hypothesizes a state of > affairs in which reality is *not* uncertain; a reality in which it is > *absolutely certain* that momentum will be conserved on each and > every occasion. > .. If someone reports an experiment that violates conservation of > momentum, you shouldn't chalk it down to a rare exception to the > general rule (maybe someone negotiated the laws of physics down a > little from their extreme and unreasonable position that momentum should > be conserved on every single occasion). I agree that is what one should not do given someone else's report. The separate experiential world that each individual truth-seeker lives in means that someone else's reported observation is not our own observation. Someone elses observation that we haven't shared can only be factored into our world view as having some probability of being true. If my worldview which includes my understanding of the law of constervation of momentum was as experientially rich as someone like Feynman's, in other words as rich as someone who had had as many opportunities to apply the scientific method in a lab many times over many years in his life and so to personally observe nature in many of its less common manifestations as well as in its common ones, then, when confronted with a report of an observation that didn't match either my worldview (model) or my experience I'd make a judgement as to the likely veracity of the claim (and therefore whether to bother trying to observe for myself) based on a set of priors. I'd consider the prior probability of my experience of physical science to date being incomplete, (experience itself can't be wrong just miss classified), in relation to the prior probability of that other person making the claim to have observed something I haven't yet observed being right. Whether I'd bother to try and check their observation to see if I would see the same thing as them would depend on what else I have to do with my time and on my assessment of the likelihood of their observation being right given what I know of them and my model of them. Most of us, don't have the experiential background or same historical set of personal observations as Feynman, so our confidence in the law of the conservation of momentum necessarily comes from a difference place than Feynman's. >.. I think that part of the Way is trying to fit yourself to the real >world, > to the actual statistical frequency of events - deliberately thinking > about the statistical likelihood of any sample case presented for your > attention. And I agree that that is a part. An oft neglected part. But it is only a part of the Way. > No one in all human history has ever woken up with a functioning > tentacle in place of their arm. You should have noticed that when > I asked you to find an explanation for it. Ah but don't you see. No one in all of human history has ever woken up with a functioning tentacle in place of their arm - to the best of *my* current knowledge only. I didn't forget that that was to the best of *my* current knowledge only when I entered into the spirit of your hypothetical. I didn't forget that my current knowledge is knowledge acquired in a particular way and that ultimately it is provisional knowledge only. I didn't have to have considered or devoted mindspace to the hypothetical you put before you put it. I thought of it only when you invited me to imagine it. When you say that there is nothing wrong with being bewildered and not knowing under certain circumstances, I agree, that there is nothing *wrong* it. But mere bewilderment, mere stocktaking and humility is not an "explanation". > Occasionally I tread on the futile task of trying to persuade people not > to buy lottery tickets, and they say something along the line of "Someone > has to win!" or "You can't win if you don't play!" To which the answer > is, "'Someone' will not be you. You will not win the lottery, period. I > could make a hundred thousand statements > of equal strength and not be wrong even once. That's not *"the"* answer it is just *an* answer. I see your point. But I think your answer is suboptimal because it doesn't explain and so cannot persuade (and persuasion was your apparent aim). Yes your math is *likely* to be valid. The odds of any person winning the lotteries that I know of are certainly greater than 100,000 : 1 against them, so it's true that *probably* you would not be wrong in your statement even once. But it is not certain. Every time you make that statement you increase your chances of being wrong in some real case. > Let us learn to live in this universe the way it really is, attending to > the real frequency of events instead of the frequency of media reports of > events. When someone asks us to imagine a magical outcome, let us forget > all of the novels we have read, and all the > movies we have seen, and all the hopes of our childhood, and > remember that the observed frequency is zero. This advice taken, might lead to better policy decisions by the majority but perhaps worse ones by an already empowered minority. Let me give you an example. In the recent discussion John C Wright finds god, Damien didn't forget all the novels he had read, the movies he had seen etc in couching his arguments to John C Wright, quite to the contrary, he integrated his understanding of such cultural biases, and pointed out that John C Wright had had the sort of experience that 'fit' with his culture rather than one that would have 'fit' with a different culture. Feynman ought not be encouraged to forget his experiences and observations of the physical world over many years as first a child, then an undergrad, then a postgrad etc.. His experiences and observations aren't to be forgotten, they are rather to be carefully sorted and integrated with respect to each other. What we observe of the real world is always telling us something of the real world. The important thing with our models is to integrate correctly what it is that we are observing. > At the same time, let's not forget how ridiculous the 20th century would > have sounded if you'd reported it to a 19th-century listener. > But reality is very constrained in what kind of ridiculousness it > presents us with. Not one of the ridiculous things that happened in the > 20th century violated conservation of momentum. Then conservation of momentum was a good extrapolation from the observations. It was better (more useful) to have extrapolated a law of conservation of momentum then to have not done. > Oh... and if you *do* wake up with a tentacle in place of an arm... > it's probably not because anyone snuck into your room; there must > be a simpler, more likely explanation you didn't think of, or the event > wouldn't have happened. My explanation was only provisional so if it happens I'll be open to alternative explanations. And if it happens I won't have to throw away all my experiences or forget stuff to explain it. I will only have to change my model and I'll only have to change it in certain ways. My model might differ from your model or say Feynman's model not because of differences in rationality but because of differences in experiences and differences in how I have integrated my experiences into my personal worldview. Even in the few seconds I was willing to spare for an "explanation" the explanation that I proferred gives a hint to where I would start looking for ways to reallign my extrapolated current map of the terrain with the new experience of the actual terrain. > When you have only a poor explanation, one that doesn't make things > ordinary in retrospect, just admit you don't have an > explanation, and keep going. Poor explanations very, very rarely > turn out to be actually correct. I don't think that this is right, or that it is a logical conclusion to draw from the better parts of your argument in your essay. We have maps of the terrain of reality because we need them. Maps have utility. If you give me a poor map and I know nothing of you and find that the map is wrong then, in that case yes, perhaps I might be better off without that map altogether, but if the map I have is one that I have constructed myself, then when I find it differs from the terrain I can just correct or improve the map. If you are a rational Bayesian truthseeker drawing a map and I get a look at your map, then what I know about you will tell me something about where your map is likely to be reliable and where it is likely to be more riskly for me to rely on it. I stand in a different position to your map than I do to a map that I've drawn for myself based on my experiences of the terrain. And of course vice versa. > A gang of people sneaking into your room with unknown technology is a > poor explanation. Whatever the real explanation > was, it wouldn't be that. I think you can only establish that it's poor (for others than you) in relation to the provision of a better one. "I don't know", whilst a fair and honest answer, is not any sort of explanation. My answer shows you I don't know but doesn't leave you (or importantly) me merely and completely bewildered. It gives me things to check. I'd check first my premises about the state of my knowledge of technology and of the state of my knowledge about what current organisations of people could do rather than first checking the state of my knowledge in some other area. I wouldn't be convinced that the explanation had to lie in those domains I'd check first, but *I'd* start looking there rather than elsewhere to correct *my* model. > Whatever the real explanation was, it wouldn't be that. If that's the > best you can do, then "I wasn't expecting this and I have no clue why > it happened or what will happen next" is a far superior answer. Nah :-) > In real life, sometimes we don't know what happened. Of course that is true. > .. If I'd sworn that I really did possess some concrete reason to > anticipate that you might *actually* wake up with a tentacle, and > asked you to guess my good reason, "I don't know" would have > been the correct answer (taking my rationality as a fixed given). I agree with you here, essentially. But that's a different case. And it is very hard for us as individuals to take other's "rationalities" as givens when we don't get to see the others observations as our own observations. Second (or more) hand "observations" have to be discounted to some extend on first hand ones. > .. I don't think you could be a Bayesian without knowing it, unless you > had unwittingly demanded that people be principled > about assigning prior probabilities, or some such stance which > today is commonly known as "Bayesian". Informally, I think I may have been doing "some such", but in any case having the "label" will allow me to do it more efficiently and perhaps especially with other Bayesians. >... My point is that you should be wary of probabilities which are, >*given* the dominant physical hypothesis, actually zero or effectively >zero. I get your point. I also get that "laws of science" will feature as very probable priors in most rational world views. I wonder if you get my point which is that two rationalists, both Bayesians, will have different prior probabilities because of their different experiences and the different maps of reality that they have constructed from their experiences. And others are part of what reality is. Where these two (or more) can come together and link their maps from time to time is where they recognize that both are committed to constructing a personal worldview that eliminates inconsistencies and that both know the other will also experience cognitive dissonance where its shown to them that their informal (or formal) probabilities assignments don't sum to 1. > If your explanation: "A secret organization of people entered > my house and replaced my arm with a tentacle using unknown > technology" doesn't make you anticipate (even just a little) > waking up with a tentacle tomorrow in this our real world, then > it's a poor explanation. The exploration of the hypothetical made me think about it. It hasn't made me anticipate it. I don't assign any greater probability to that prior (that chance that I'd wake up with an arm replaced by a tentacle) now than I did before. But if the prior became not an infinitesimal prior but a fact then I don't think my process of trying to explain it to myself would be affected. I'd look to correct my map with the information from the territory. I'd know that my map isn't your map. My uncertainties or degrees of uncertainties aren't going to correlate exactly with yours, or indeed, with any other map-making, worldview-holding, person. I'd start the process of trying to explore differently to you unless we happened to be in the same unlikely circumstance together and then I'd be interested in your map as well as mine when mine seemed doubtful. And perhaps vice versa. > For it is this, our real world, in which you must live. Nor should > you bother trying to develop a better explanation. For in this, > our real world, you will have no need of it. As general purpose advice that isn't bad. But I don't personally *just* want to live in the world. I want to be an agent for change in the world. I want to steer the future world towards a course that suits me better than will happen if I only "don't know". "Don't know" isn't a philosophy of, or policy for, action. It's just a starting point and a staging post. It's a recognition that the map is wrong - and so necessary, but not sufficient for correcting the map and then getting on. We need to retain our willingness to try to "explain". Progress depends on people (as change agents) being willing to stick their necks out to try to explain. Brett Paatsch From sentience at pobox.com Sat Jan 22 16:40:21 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:40:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <001e01c50060$acd24910$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <001e01c50060$acd24910$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <41F281F5.6090807@pobox.com> Brett Paatsch wrote: > Or as Feynman ([para 39] in accompanying post) said: > > "This method [science] is based on the principle that observation is the > judge of whether something is so or not. All other aspects and > characteristics of science can be understood directly when we understand > that observation is the ultimate and final judge of the truth of an > idea. But "prove" used in this way really means "test", in the same way > that hundred-proof alcohol is a test of the alcohol, and for people > today the idea really should be translated as, "The exception tests the > rule." Or, put another way, "The exception proves that the rule is > wrong". That is the principle of science. If there is an exception to > any rule, and if it can be proved by observation, that rule is wrong." And as Feynman said in the _Lectures on Physics_: "Philosophers, incidentally, say a great deal about what is absolutely necessary for science, and it is always, so far as one can see, rather naive, and probably wrong. For example, some philosopher or other said it is fundamental to the scientific effort that if an experiment is performed in, say, Stockholm, and then the same experiment is done in, say, Quito, the same results must occur. That is quite false. It is not necessary that science do that; it may be a fact of experience, but it is not necessary. For example, if one of the experiments is to look out at the sky and see the aurora borealis in Stockholm, you do not see it in Quito; that is a different phenomenon. "But," you say, "that is something that has to do with the outside; can you close yourself up in a box in Stockholm and pull down the shade and get any difference?" Surely. If we take a pendulum on a universal joint, and pull it out and let go, then the pendulum will swing almonst in a plane, but not quite. Slowly the plane keeps changing in Stockholm, but not in Quito. The blinds are down, too. The fact that this has happened does not bring on the destruction of science. What is the fundamental hypothesis of science, the fundamental philosophy? We stated it in the first chapter: the sole test of the validity of any idea is experiment. If it turns out that most experiments work out the same in Quito as the do in Stockholm, then those "most experiments" will be used to formulate some general law, and the those experiments which do not come out the same we will say were a result of the environment near Stockholm. We wil invent some way to summarize the results of the experiment, and we do not have to be told ahead of time what this way will look like. If we are told that the same experiment will always produce the same result, that is all very well, but if when we try it, it does not, then it does not. We just have to take what we see, and then formulate all the rest of our ideas in terms of our actual experience." I reply: Nonetheless we *observe* that the same experiment *does* return the same answer in Quito as in Stockholm, once we understand how to perform the "same" experiment. The more fundamental the level on which we compute our model, the more the underlying laws are exactly the same in every observation. This is not a thing that philosophers dreamed up a priori; it is a thing humanity has discovered through experience - but nonetheless it is so. It may be that someday we will understand that reality is *necessarily* regular, that this is the way things *must* be, and that it could not have been any other way. Historically, humanity will still have discovered this point from observation, but our future selves may be so strongly attuned to reality that, like the universe itself, they cannot conceive of things being other than the way they are. Or not. I don't know if that's what I would want, even given the premise. But if some future intelligence *does* somehow manage to become absolutely certain of something, and ve indeed wins on every single prediction, vis Bayesian score would be higher than mine - even if contemplating vis absolute certainty would give a modern-day rationalist the squiggles. I don't find it implausible that in reality itself there are things that absolutely cannot be other than the way they are, even if a rationalist cannot avoid uncertainty about them. Feynman's advice, in the classical tradition of rationality, is about the way in which human beings discover things, and about the fallibility of human discoveries even after they are made. But despite all cautions about human fallibility, not one of all the strange and unexpected events that happened in the 20th century violated conservation of momentum. Reality - we *observe* this, we do not say it a priori - is very constricted in the kind of surprises it has presented us with. Sometimes we even discover new and unexpected laws of physics, but the new laws still have the same character as old physics; they are universal mathematical laws. I think it is now okay to say that there is something important about a *fundamental* law of physics needing to work the same way in Quito as in Stockholm. There is something important about physics being simple math. We do not necessarily understand *why* it is so, at this point in human history. But it is not a dictum of philosophy, it is a lesson of experience. It is a lesser lesson of experience that people don't wake up with blue tentacles. This rule of thumb is not just a philosophical dictum, and if you violate it, you may end up in trouble. All correct theories about reality are necessarily consistent with each other; imperfect maps may conflict, but there is only one territory. If you make up a story that "explains" waking up with a blue tentacle, *when it never actually happened*, there is a discordant note - that story is not necessarily consistent with everything else you know, let alone consistent with the territory. Consider how different is the skill of explaining truth from the skill of explaining falsity! The former skill requires that the explanation be consistent with every other true theory in our possession about the universe, so that we may rule out some explanations, or question some previous theories. The latter skill... well, I'm not sure what to say; the rules would seem to be arbitrary. We want to train ourselves to excel at explaining true things, not explaining false things, for only the former is the strength of a rationalist. Just because you don't know what the future brings, doesn't mean that reality itself will throw just anything at you. Just because *you* don't know *absolutely* that something *won't* happen, doesn't mean that if you devise a random fiction, it would be theoretically possible for one with total knowledge of Nature to explain it. A random fiction is most likely an event that could never be woven into the thread of this our real world. If observations alone are cause for explanations, you are less likely to try and explain the unexplainable. > Ah but don't you see. No one in all of human history has ever woken up > with a functioning tentacle in place of their arm - to the best of *my* > current knowledge only. I didn't forget that that was to the best of > *my* current knowledge only when I entered into the spirit of your > hypothetical. I didn't forget that my current knowledge is knowledge > acquired in a particular way and that ultimately it is provisional > knowledge only. I didn't have to have considered or devoted mindspace to > the hypothetical you put before you put it. I thought of it only when > you invited me to imagine it. My inviting you to imagine a blue tentacle might or might not be a good reason to *imagine* a blue tentacle, but it surely was not a good enough reason to come up with an *explanation* for a blue tentacle. Only a real observation would be cause for that, and reality is rather unlikely to present you with that observation. The measure of your strength as a rationalist is your ability to be more confused by fiction than by reality. If you are equally good at explaining any outcome, you have zero knowledge. I presented you with a fiction, an event that was never part of this our real world. You should not have been able to explain it. It is a virtue to be able to explain history books, but only if you are *not* able to explain online webcomics. A true anecdote: Once upon a time, I was on an IRC channel when R comes in, saying that his friend H is having trouble breathing; R needs advice. R says that the ambulance people came in, checked H out, and left, even though H was still having trouble breathing. And I look at this and in a fleeting moment of confusion I think: "What the hell? That doesn't accord with anything I know about medical procedure. I've read newspaper stories about homeless people who claim to be sick to get a brief bit of shelter, and the ambulance crews know they're faking but have to take them in anyway." But I suppress that fleeting moment of confusion, and say... I forget what I said, but I think it was something like, "Well, they're the experienced medics - if they say H doesn't need to visit the emergency room, H must really not need to visit the emergency room. Trust the doctors." A bit later R returns to the IRC room, angry. It turns out that H was making up the whole thing, trying for sympathy, to scam a bit of money, whatever, and there never was an ambulance. And I said to myself: "Why the hell did I accept this confusing story? I'm no better than those apocryphal high school students speculating about thermodynamics. Next time, I vow to notice when I am confused, and not let the critical hint of my bewilderment flit by so quickly." It's really annoying that my mind actually got all the way to the point of being confused, and I just squashed it and accepted the story. Think of the glory that would have accrued to me as a rationalist, if I alone on the IRC channel had said: "This story is so confusing that I may want to deny the data. How sure are you that your friend's story is true? Were you there?" Therefore did I devise this saying, to chide myself for having failed to distinguish truth from falsehood: "Your strength as a rationalist is your ability to be more confused by fiction than by reality." > In the recent discussion John C Wright finds > god, Damien didn't forget all the novels he had read, the movies he had > seen etc in couching his arguments to John C Wright, quite to the > contrary, he integrated his understanding of such cultural biases, and > pointed out that John C Wright had had the sort of experience that 'fit' > with his culture rather than one that would have 'fit' with a different > culture. The logical form of Damien's argument was that since Wright's purported story, which might be real and might not be, was drastically inconsistent with experiment, and drastically consistent with known fictions, it was probably also a fiction. This doesn't mean we are reasoning from fictions as if they were real events. It means we are being aware of the probable causes of human delusion. But it is necessary to first investigate the question of consistency with science; even true statements will often have some *vague* resemblance to fiction, because there are so many fictions out there. > My explanation was only provisional so if it happens I'll be open to > alternative explanations. And if it happens I won't have to throw away > all my experiences or forget stuff to explain it. I will only have to > change my model and I'll only have to change it in certain ways. If anyone ever wakes up with a blue tentacle, then you were virtuous to claim in advance that the event was explicable. If the real chain of events leading up to the blue tentacle matches your given reason, then you were virtuous to claim that reason as your specific explanation. If no one ever wakes up with a blue tentacle, then clearly a blue tentacle wasn't the sort of thing which would ever be woven into reality by a sequence of events that would constitute an "explanation" of it, and it was a mistake to claim that a blue tentacle was an explicable event. What would be your explanation if one day, everyone in the world began observing that two of something plus two of something made five of something? >> When you have only a poor explanation, one that doesn't make things >> ordinary in retrospect, just admit you don't have an explanation, and >> keep going. Poor explanations very, very rarely turn out to be >> actually correct. > > I don't think that this is right, or that it is a logical conclusion to > draw from the better parts of your argument in your essay. We have maps > of the terrain of reality because we need them. Maps have utility. If > you give me a poor map and I know nothing of you and find that the map > is wrong then, in that case yes, perhaps I might be better off without > that map altogether, but if the map I have is one that I have > constructed myself, then when I find it differs from the terrain I can > just correct or improve the map. That is an argument for: "I will sit down and write a story, knowing it to be fiction, about how a secret organization came into my apartment and replaced my arm with a blue tentacle. I do not *believe* this has happened. No, seriously, I don't believe it and I'm not going to act as if I believed it, because it's a stupid explanation. But maybe the mental exercise will shake something loose in my mind, and I'll think of a better explanation." To say that it can have utility to mentally extrapolate the consequences of a premise is not the same as believing that premise. One must be careful here; if you act like you believe something, or if you end up emotionally attached to the belief, I don't credit you as a rationalist just because you claim you didn't believe you would win the lottery, you bought the tickets "for the drama" of it, etc. People with a fragmentary understanding of the Way sometimes anticipate that they can pass as rationalists by claiming not to believe the things they anticipate. >> A gang of people sneaking into your room with unknown technology is a >> poor explanation. Whatever the real explanation was, it wouldn't be >> that. > > I think you can only establish that it's poor (for others than you) in > relation to the provision of a better one. "I don't know", whilst a > fair and honest answer, is not any sort of explanation. My answer shows > you I don't know but doesn't leave you (or importantly) me merely and > completely bewildered. It gives me things to check. That is not an *answer*. It is not something to which Bayesian reasoning gives a high probability. That is a science fiction story, a tool for brainstorming an answer. I have sometimes derived interesting ideas from my attempts to write SF, but I know those stories for fiction, not reality. If you see something that looks like a poor explanation but is the only explanation you have, it may take a bit of effort to achieve a state of mind where you *really* don't anticipate it - rather than claiming to yourself that you are dutifully skeptical. > And it is very hard for us as individuals to take other's > "rationalities" as givens when we don't get to see the others > observations as our own observations. Second (or more) hand > "observations" have to be discounted to some extend on first hand ones. See Robin Hanson and Tyler Cowen's paper on meta-rationality, "Are Disagreements Honest?" http://hanson.gmu.edu/deceive.pdf > Progress depends on people (as change agents) being willing to stick > their necks out to try to explain. That doesn't require that you bet on, anticipate, or believe a hypothesis, before it is confirmed. It means that you write science fiction about a poor hypothesis, to get your mind working on the problem. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From russell.wallace at gmail.com Sat Jan 22 18:50:16 2005 From: russell.wallace at gmail.com (Russell Wallace) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 18:50:16 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Bad Bayesian - no biscuit! In-Reply-To: <41F281F5.6090807@pobox.com> References: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> <41EEC216.5080602@pobox.com> <001e01c50060$acd24910$b8232dcb@homepc> <41F281F5.6090807@pobox.com> Message-ID: <8d71341e05012210504c07482f@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 11:40:21 -0500, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > To say that it can have utility to mentally extrapolate the consequences of > a premise is not the same as believing that premise. One must be careful > here; if you act like you believe something, or if you end up emotionally > attached to the belief, I don't credit you as a rationalist just because > you claim you didn't believe you would win the lottery, you bought the > tickets "for the drama" of it, etc. People with a fragmentary > understanding of the Way sometimes anticipate that they can pass as > rationalists by claiming not to believe the things they anticipate. By that logic, is it not even more irrational to buy a movie ticket? After all, the probability that you will ever encounter the Death Star, the One Ring or Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry is even lower than the probability that you will win the lottery. What's that, you claim you don't believe you'll encounter them in real life, you're just watching the movie "for the drama" of it etc? Hmm, what was that about people with a fragmentary understanding of the Way? ^.~ - Russell From astrophysics1 at tcinternet.net Sat Jan 22 20:00:17 2005 From: astrophysics1 at tcinternet.net (astrophysics1) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 14:00:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Message 4 ....4. A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution and an Inquiry about Message-ID: <000b01c500bd$07819940$afe24d42@dra> It sounds like you are preaching. Being an atheist that distracts me. But maybe it sounds like you have been reading extropy chat for a long time and you were a volcano of thoughts waiting to explode. And this resulted in a huge explosion of thoughts on your philosophy of life. I find 80% of them interesting. But I don't know where to start. Can we start the conversation over. And break it down into bits and pieces??? I would love to discuss some of these ideas with you. From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Sat Jan 22 23:21:38 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 10:21:38 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> Robin Hanson wrote: >>Richard Feynman's lecture - The Uncertainty of Science >> >>April 1963. >>----------- >>... So in science we are not interested in where an idea comes from. >>There is no authority who decides what is a good idea. We have lost >> the need to go to an authority to find out whether an idea is true or >> not. We can read an authority and let him suggest something; we can > > try it out and find out if its true or not. If it is not true, so much > > the worse - so the "authorities" lose some of their "authority". ... >>In physics there are so many accumulated observations that it is almost >>impossible to think of a new idea which is different from all the >> ideas that have been thought of before and yet that agrees with all the >> observations that have already been made. And so if you get anything >> new from anyone, anywhere, you welcome it, and you do not argue why the >> other person says it is so. ... >>Most people find it surprising that in science there is no interest in the >>background of the author of an idea or in his motive in expounding it. >> You listen, and if it sounds like a thing worth trying, a thing that >> could >> be tried, is different, and is not obviously contrary to something >> observed before, it gets exciting and worthwhile. You do not have to >> worry about how long he has studied or why he wants you to listen to >> him. ... > Dear Richard had to be pretty caught up in his rhetoric to say these > whoppers. Scientists most definitely pay attention to the people pushing > an idea, including how long they have studied. There are in practice more > ideas proposed than people have time to evaluate in much detail. So most > are rejected (regarding publication, funding, jobs) without knowing > whether those ideas conflict with observations or not. There are > definitely > authorities who decide to reject or not, and they most certainly pay > attention to where the advocate comes from when making this decision. > And dear Richard knew this full well. I'm glad you read that post and pulled out those excerpts Robin. I'm not surprised by your reaction as I'd also continued reading pretty closely some of your writings over the holiday particularly _Could Gambling Save Science?_ [Aside: That contains some interesting stuff btw, especially the "denser" bits where some nuts and bolts of implementation are considered. I'd like to discuss that with you some time if your willing. See also http://www.entrepitec.com/Terrorism_Futures_article_page.html the last paragraph. Surely 50 years is too long to wait. ] Whilst, obviously, I like the Feynman lecture (I was sufficiently impressed with it to type it into digital form so I could use it), I do not hold Feynman as beyond criticism, and as I was going through his lectures I was aware that Feynman was very much an "insider" rather than an "outsider" in the terms of your above essay. When Feynman speaks of "we" in the lecture, it often struck me as being a particularly restricted sort of "we". A set that certainly always included Feynman in it, and I think in fairness to him, a set that he always meant to extend to *some* others than his own Nobel-laureate-in-physics-level self. For all Feynman's showmanship and skill in explaining and popularising science, and notwithstanding my pleasure that the world occasionally produces people like Feynman that can give lectures like he did, there are times when it struck me in a different sense that almost only Feynman could think and speak as he did. He seems to have the sort of separated egalitarianism that reminds of someone like Marie Antoinette (if memory serves) who on hearing that people have no bread, says that, they should be "let" "eat cake". I can *almost* imagine Feynman suggesting folks just get on out and do some observing and testing right after the lecture on there very own garage synchrotrons and supercolliders and then to be sure to send him a cheerio if they find anything interesting. Brett Paatsch From rhanson at gmu.edu Sun Jan 23 01:35:59 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:35:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050122193155.02b9b900@mail.gmu.edu> On 1/22/2005, Brett Paatsch wrote: >>Dear Richard had to be pretty caught up in his rhetoric to say these >>whoppers. >>Scientists most definitely pay attention to the people pushing an idea, >>including how long they have studied. There are in practice more ideas >>proposed than people have time to evaluate in much detail. So most >>are rejected (regarding publication, funding, jobs) without knowing >>whether those ideas conflict with observations or not. There are >>definitely authorities who decide to reject or not, and they most >>certainly pay attention to where the advocate comes from when making >>this decision. And dear Richard knew this full well. > >I'm glad you read that post and pulled out those excerpts Robin. I'm not >surprised by your reaction as I'd also continued reading pretty closely >some of your writings over the holiday particularly _Could Gambling Save >Science? Whilst, obviously, I like the Feynman lecture ... I do not hold >Feynman >as beyond criticism, and as I was going through his lectures I was aware that >Feynman was very much an "insider" rather than an "outsider" in the terms >of your above essay. >When Feynman speaks of "we" in the lecture, it often struck me as being >a particularly restricted sort of "we". A set that certainly always included >Feynman in it, and I think in fairness to him, a set that he always meant to >extend to *some* others than his own Nobel-laureate-in-physics-level self. Feynman was a great physicist, as well as a great salesman and entertainer. He sold many on an idealized vision of himself and his social institution. As a graduate student at Caltech, where Feynman talk for many years, I learned that many quite unflattering tales of him are told there. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From rhanson at gmu.edu Sun Jan 23 01:42:46 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 20:42:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050122193155.02b9b900@mail.gmu.edu> References: <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050122193155.02b9b900@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050122204054.02b97900@mail.gmu.edu> I just wrote: >Feynman was a great physicist, as well as a great salesman and entertainer. >He sold many on an idealized vision of himself and his social institution. >As a graduate student at Caltech, where Feynman talk for many years, I learned >that many quite unflattering tales of him are told there. I had meant to add: While I enjoyed the Feynman Lectures along with everyone else, those people I have known who have tried to use it as their primary text had found themselves stumped when they actually try to solve concrete problems. There's a reason the standard textbooks are structured the way they are. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Sun Jan 23 16:15:05 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:15:05 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution and an Inquiry about SMI2LE In-Reply-To: <20050121231136.67294.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050121231136.67294.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200501231415.06384.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Hello Brian, and any other young transhumanist who likes this list because of the many intelligent, experts and discussion-likers we can find here. I know how does it feel to have less than 6 people to help your thinking, and extropy chat is a very good place to advance our theories of any kind, as I have discovered on this last few months in which I have been here. Sometime ago I have posted a liberal decalogue on wta-talk (another discussion group) that I think all young people here should apreciate, but before, I'd like to post some of my views on your text. You seemed to be very metaphysical in some assumptions, like if you had a purpose to beleive that there is something really metaphysical within the governance of the universe. This appears when you use the subjective idea of positive and negative things, and in the idea of a universal purpose. Both positive and negative are not metaphysical entities, they are just logical fictions we made up for the sake of argument. Purpose is something that is less fictional than positive and negative. Still, purpose is something that can be atributted only to conscious beings, and there is no sense into stablish a direct conection between survival of the fittest and purpose, or between greater complexity and purpose. Both survival of the fittest and greater complexity do not need any "desire" to appear, they are only the consequences of our universe history. Also, you seemed to distorce the significance of survival of the fittest. First, you have said that there is a survival of the fittest that makes the universe rearranges itself in greater orders of complexity, and that this greater order of complexity lead us to power. You seem to beleive that something which is the fittest is better, or something which is more complex is better than a simpler thing. Therefore, you gathered good = Survival of the fittest survival of the fittest -> complexity -> power so power = good The fittest is not always good, as you can see by the catholic philosophy domination of the world, and power is not also good by essence, any dictadorship shows you that. Endorsing power like this is not exactly usefull, and trying to achieve power is not the purpose of our lifes, only one of our evolutional characteristics. About the fields you proposed yourself to study, I beleive that it is also important to study mathematical probablility, and psychology. Beck to the beggining here is the Liberal Decalogue I beleive all young extropians should read, before they get psychologically narrow in their thinking freeness. A Liberal Decalogue Perhaps the essence of the Liberal outlook could be summed up in a new decalogue, not intended to replace the old one but only to supplement it. The Ten Commandments that, as a teacher, I should wish to promulgate, might be set forth as follows: 1. Do not feel absolutely certain of anything. 2. Do not think it worth while to proceed by concealing evidence, for the evidence is sure to come to light. 3. Never try to discourage thinking for you are sure to succeed. 4. When you meet with opposition, eve n if it should be from your husband or your children, endeavor to overcome it by argument and not by authority, for a victory dependent upon authority is unreal and illusory. 5. Have no respect for the authority of others, for there are always contrary authorities to be found. 6. Do not use power to suppress opinions you think pernicious, for if you do the opinions will suppress you. 7. Do not fear to be eccentric in opinion, for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric. 8. Find more pleasur e in intelligent dissent that in passive agreement, for, if you value intelligence as you should, the former implies a deeper agreement than the latter. 9. Be scrupulously truthful, even if the truth is inconvenient, for it is more inconvenient when you try to conceal it. 10. Do not feel envious of the happiness of those who live in a fool's paradise, for only a fool will think that it is happiness. for the sake of the 4th commandment, I supressed the author name. may physics be with you Diego (Log At) " Free will is as much an invention as are Gods, Religions and Metaphisical souls. They are nothing but the results of the constant desire of the human being to be more important than he really is" -- myself . Em Sexta 21 Janeiro 2005 21:11, Brian Campbell escreveu: > A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution > > and an Inquiry Concerning Aspects of Knowledge Specific to Leary's SMI2LE > Theory > > A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution > > I choose here to speak my mind because I am finding it more and more > difficult to discuss and advance my theories. I know less than 6 people who > are interested and advanced enough to really stimulate my mind. Revelations > are becoming fewer and further between ever passing day and i grow more and > more bored. I know of no better place to find the stimulation i need than > here. I seek your knowledge and wisdom. I have read the extropy chat and > have been really apprehensive about posting because i fear rejection by > those older and more intelligent thinkers whom i respect so much. I would > ask u try to look over my grammar errors. I have tried my best to make this > as legible as possible. Now on with the show. > > I seek to absorb all the knowledge i can, process it , and spread it too > all that are interested. I seek knowledge in every form I can, from > writings of all kinds, experience (my own and anyone else's who chooses to > share), and conversations/debates. I take in this information , process it > based on my previous info, and use it as much as I can to further my > understanding of the nature of everything. I share all I know in hopes of > getting feedback on alternate points of view, flaws in my theories, and/or > new connections/possibilities. This is the meaning of my life. I tell u > this here because it is the most meaningful thing I can see in life and in > hopes that someone reading this will be inspired or at the very least that > this will get them to thinking. I am what Leary calls an Intelligence > Agent, and this is my call to arms. > > In my opinion, (as everything i say is, of course. so i wont bother stating > this further) the purpose of all things in our known universe is to evolve. > Our universe is a system, not unlike an exponentially more large and > complex computer than those we have created. It is a self-evolving system > based on some fundamental rules. As the system gets more complex, there is > much more potential in the system for positivity and negativity (in this > case just think of it as simply evolution and de-evolution respectively, as > i don't feel this is the time or place to go further into my theories on > chaotic positivity and negativity). This increase in positive/negative > potential cannot be avoided. It is the reward/cost of evolution. > > All things go through the process of the metaphysical trinity (dynamism, > stasis, entropy, and back to dynamism). This process ensures that all > things grow until they reach a barrier or limit of some kind (current > technology or information, for instance). They then break down when a new > possibility becomes available (certain old aspects in favor of new > "potentially" better aspects, survival of the fittest, if u will) allowing > for further growth and expansion. > > The universe has reached a point were it has created a system advanced > enough for creative/ complex thought and a free will beyond anything else > we currently know of (a stage in which the universe "computer" has created > AI). Being the most advanced (as far as we know) system in this universe we > have been given the greatest power for change (by system here I mean the > human race). Our job (our meaning of life) is to further the evolution of > all we can. We will do this one way or the other, consciously or not.The > question is do u actively participate (to greatly speed up the evolution) > or do u passively ride the chaos at the whim of whoever/whatever chooses to > act upon u ? This is a question of power. Do u control or be controlled?Are > u a shepherd or a sheep? Do you blissfully sleep or take active part in the > greatest adventure of our times? Of course, thats only my 2 cents. Take it > as u will. > > > > An Inquiry Concerning Aspects of Knowledge Specific to Leary's SMI2LE > Theory > > > > I am requesting your help to further SMI2LE (SM= space migration, I2= > intelligence increase, LE= life expectancy ). I have made a list of the > areas of study that i feel would be most beneficial to the I2 and LE parts > (the 2 of most interest to myself) . I was hoping to get your opinions and > any info u know on the subjects as it relates to SMI2LE or resources > (online preferably) where I could find the info for myself. I am > researching this because i want to eventually get into one of these areas > as a career so i can do my best to further SMI2LE. Here is my list with > brief details on the parts of the field i find most important. Thank you in > advance for any comments/help u may offer. > > 1) Biochemistry (the cell-chemical relations inside the human body) > > 2) Neurology (structure and development on the cellular level) > > 3) Free radicals and other things that influence DNA/cells entropy or > growth > > 4) DNA ( structure/development/breakdown/manipulation. to "force" > biological evolution through manipulation) > > 5) Biomechanics ( biological and mechanical interface/interaction. to > electronically/mechanically evolve mental/physical capabilities) > > 6) Nanotechnology (research/development , function/use theories, > development problems/solutions) > > Neommox at yahoo.com > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 23 16:11:54 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 09:11:54 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) 'Cancer, Chemicals and History' from The Nation Message-ID: <41F3CCCA.913052E@mindspring.com> [FOR Forteana: Does anyone remember Brent? He subscribed from Phoenix where he attended Arizona State University. Brent made some comments about Monsanto, perhaps in private e-mail to me (CRS). -Terry] from H-SCI-MED-TECH at H-NET.MSU.EDU Date: Friday, January 21 2005 10:04 am From: David Rosner add to contacts Subject: 'Cancer, Chemicals and History' from The Nation Dear All, David Rosner wanted to alert the list to following article in the Nation, that is of interest to historians of science, medicine, and technology, particularly those interested in corporate histories, and the history of public health. We welcome responses about this article, and the subject in general from listmembers. Best, Suzanne Moon Cancer, Chemicals and History by Jon Wiener Twenty of the biggest chemical companies in the United States have launched a campaign to discredit two historians who have studied the industry's efforts to conceal links between their products and cancer. In an unprecedented move, attorneys for Dow, Monsanto, Goodrich, Goodyear, Union Carbide and others have subpoenaed and deposed five academics who recommended that the University of California Press publish the book Deceit and Denial: The Deadly Politics of Industrial Pollution, by Gerald Markowitz and David Rosner. The companies have also recruited their own historian to argue that Markowitz and Rosner have engaged in unethical conduct. Markowitz is a professor of history at the CUNY Grad Center; Rosner is a professor of history and public health at Columbia University and director of the Center for the History and Ethics of Public Health at Columbia's School of Public Health. The reasons for the companies' actions are not hard to find: They face potentially massive liability claims on the order of the tobacco litigation if cancer is linked to vinyl chloride-based consumer products such as hairspray. The stakes are high also for publishers of controversial books, and for historians who write them, because when authors are charged with ethical violations and manuscript readers are subpoenaed, that has a chilling effect. The stakes are highest for the public, because this dispute centers on access to information about cancer-causing chemicals in consumer products. For Rosner and Markowitz the story began in 1993, when they traveled to Lake Charles, Louisiana, to look at what they were told was "a warehouse of material" about vinyl chloride and cancer. The address they were given turned out to be a "decrepit hovel in the desolate center of town," as Markowitz describes it. They found it "full of chemical industry documents, lining every wall and filling every corner." The material, Rosner told me, was "incredible. Not just company documents but records of meetings of the trade association for the chemical companies. No one had ever seen anything like it." The material had been obtained through the discovery process by a local attorney, Billy Baggett Jr., who was working alone with a single client: A woman whose husband, a former worker in a chemical plant, had died of a rare cancer, angiosarcoma of the liver, caused by exposure to vinyl chloride monomer. She was suing the chemical company where he had worked. Baggett "had become obsessed with the case and dropped all the other cases he was supposed to be working on in his father's firm," Rosner told me. "He had not been able to bring the case to trial. So his father went to a bigger law firm asking for help. They asked us to go down to Lake Charles, Louisiana, and find out--is there anything there in the documents? Or is this guy just an obsessive?" Baggett had sued thirty companies and the Chemical Manufacturers Association (now called the American Chemistry Council) for conspiracy, arguing that they had concealed evidence of disease and death related to vinyl chloride. He had received hundreds of thousands of documents in response to his discovery motions. Apparently the chemical companies had flooded him with material in the belief that he would be overwhelmed by the sheer quantity, and that as a result nothing would happen. The question about the chemical companies and the health risks of vinyl chloride is the classic one: What did they know, and when did they know it? Rosner and Markowitz used the Baggett materials to show that in 1973 the industry learned that vinyl chloride monomer caused cancer in animals--even at low levels of exposure. Since vinyl chloride was the basis for hairspray, Saran Wrap, car upholstery, shower curtains, floor coverings and hundreds of other consumer products, the implications for public health were massive. Yet the companies failed to disclose that information about cancer to the public and to the federal regulatory agencies. The bigger issue for the companies stems from the role of vinyl chloride monomer as a propellant in aerosols in the 1950s and '60s. In 1974 the Food and Drug Administration and the Environmental Protection Agency asked for the recall of hairsprays (along with insecticides and other aerosols) that were still on the shelves with vinyl chloride monomer as the propellant--one hundred products in all. No one has studied whether people who worked in beauty parlors, or women who used hairspray, have had higher rates of cancer. But the industry started worrying in the early 1970s that the liability problem could be bigger than that for workers in chemical plants. The problem was "essentially unlimited liability to the entire US population," as one chemical company supervisor wrote in a 1973 memo. Hairspray was a particular concern. The documents served as the basis for two chapters of Rosner and Markowitz's book, published in 2002 to stellar reviews in the news media as well as medical and scientific journals: the St. Louis Post-Dispatch declared that the book "ought to give thousands of corporate executives insomnia" (the key documents have been posted on the Internet at www.chemicalindustryarchives.org/dirtysecrets/vinyl/1.asp). The documents are of a kind that outsiders have rarely been allowed to see: private corporate records, including internal reports of meetings where corporate officials made decisions about making and marketing products that caused health problems for workers and the public. For example, the key chapter on vinyl chloride in the book is titled "Evidence of an Illegal Conspiracy by Industry." That phrase is not the authors'; it comes from a key 1973 document in the files of the chemical company trade group, the Manufacturing Chemists Association, worrying that a legal memo on concealing the vinyl chloride-cancer link "could be construed as evidence of an illegal conspiracy by industry if the information were not made public or at least made available to the government." At issue now in US district court in Jackson, Mississippi, is the claim by another former chemical worker that Airco and other companies are liable for his liver cancer because he was exposed to vinyl chloride monomer on the job. Markowitz is a key expert witness for the plaintiffs, because of the research he and Rosner published in Deceit and Denial. But the judge is being told that Rosner and Markowitz's research is "not valid," that the publisher's review process was "subverted" and that Rosner and Markowitz have "frequently and flagrantly violated" the American Historical Association's code of ethics. Those charges come from another historian enlisted by the chemical companies: Philip Scranton of Rutgers University, who wrote a forty-one-page critique of Deceit and Denial and of the ethics of the historians who wrote it. Scranton teaches business history at Rutgers-Camden, where he is University Board of Governors Professor of the History of Industry and Technology. He also works at the Hagley Museum, a museum of early-American business history at the "ancestral home" of the Du Pont family, as it's described on the official website. Scranton directs the museum's research arm, the Center for the History of Business, Technology and Society. He also testified recently for the asbestos companies in their liability litigation. Although Scranton is serving in this case as an expert witness for the chemical companies, he's not an expert on cancer-causing chemicals; he's best known for his prizewinning book on the textile industry in Philadelphia. In this case, he doesn't claim to be an expert on the postwar chemical industry; instead, he offers himself as an expert on Markowitz's ethics. Markowitz, in contrast, is a genuine expert on the central issue in the case: the question of what the chemical companies knew, and when they knew it. Scranton in his forty-one-page statement for the chemical companies charges that Markowitz violated "basic principles of academic integrity, historical accuracy, and professional responsibility" and engaged in "sustained and repeated violations" of the official "Standards" of the American Historical Association. Scranton's argument: Markowitz knew the names of the people reviewing his manuscript for the publisher and had suggested names of possible manuscript reviewers to the publisher. "Such practices," Scranton writes, "subverted confidential, objective refereeing of scholarly manuscripts." But it's a common practice of university presses to ask authors to suggest reviewers, often because authors know better than editors who the most knowledgeable experts are, especially on an obscure topic like vinyl chloride. There's nothing unethical about this practice and nothing in the AHA standards about it. It is true, as Scranton suggests, that university presses typically offer manuscript reviewers the option of keeping their report confidential from the authors, and that in this case the publisher revealed the identities of the reviewers to the authors. But that was part of a review process that was much more demanding than the typical case. Instead of the usual two or three manuscript reviewers, Rosner and Markowitz's manuscript had eight outside reviewers, including the former head of the National Cancer Institute and the former chair of the Centers for Disease Control's Lead Advisory Panel. And instead of simply forwarding the written evaluations to the authors, as is the usual practice, Milbank Memorial Fund, the public health nonprofit that co-published the book with the University of California Press, sponsored a two-day conference that brought together the reviewers, the authors and their editors to go over the manuscript chapter by chapter. To describe this rigorous scholarly process as "unethical" because it revealed the identities of the reviewers to the authors is absurd. Scranton also objects to what he calls "overgeneralization" in Deceit and Denial. For example, the authors use the term "industry." But, Scranton argues, there were only individual companies. Rosner and Markowitz in their response show that the companies formed a trade organization that claimed to speak for "the industry." And Scranton accuses Markowitz of ethical violations for incomplete and selective quotation and one-sided advocacy. However, Scranton violates precisely what he says are the ethical principles he is defending; Scranton's essay is much more incomplete and selective, and is completely one-sided in its defense of the chemical industry. Could Scranton be right that Markowitz violated the AHA Statement on Standards in his research? I asked the vice president for research of the AHA, Roy Rosenzweig, Distinguished Professor of History at George Mason University. "I've read the AHA Statement on Standards," he says. "I see nothing in Markowitz and Rosner's book that's a violation of the AHA Standards. In my opinion, the book represents the highest standards of the history profession. Scranton should be embarrassed to make the claim that there's an ethical violation here--as opposed to the claim that he disagrees with their interpretation." The rest of Scranton's argument has a lot in common with the arguments made by the tobacco and lead companies and their attorneys in those historic liability lawsuits, arguments that have been identified by Stanford historian Robert Proctor, writing in The Lancet, one of the leading medical journals in the world. The generic arguments go something like this: Although historians have found evidence that industries were aware of the danger posed by their products, that evidence was not definitive; because they had "no proof," they had no obligation to act to protect the health of workers or the public; standards of corporate morality and openness have become stronger only recently, so it's "unfair" to apply today's standards to past conduct; and of course there's always the argument that the historians who claim to have found evidence of corporate misconduct are "biased." When I asked Scranton by e-mail if he would be willing to talk about his deposition, he replied, "These are matters for a court to address and are not yet issues for public debate." Of course, nothing is more public than a court case--but he told the Newark Star-Ledger he "regretted" that Rosner and Markowitz were making the issue public. Columbia historian Elizabeth Blackmar, one of the manuscript reviewers who were subpoenaed by the chemical companies, said, "I respect Scranton's work as a historian, so I was sorry he had turned himself into a hired gun this way." If it's unprecedented for companies to go after historians in the way Rosner and Markowitz have been attacked, it's also apparently unprecedented to subpoena and depose the peer reviewers who recommended that a university press publish a book. The Blackmar subpoena--"my first," she says--read: "You are commanded to appear" in US district court, and to "produce and permit inspection and copying" of all the material used in preparing the evaluation of the book manuscript, including "any original written, typewritten, handwritten, printed or recorded material...now or at any time in your possession, custody or control," including all e-mail. Academics aren't used to being "commanded" to do anything, and are unlikely to have attorneys of their own to accompany them to depositions. In this case, since the book was co-published by the Milbank Fund, the fund provided the subpoenaed historians with attorneys from Milbank, Tweed, the blue-chip Wall Street global legal powerhouse. At the depositions, each historian faced attorneys for fifteen different chemical companies. One of the key questions was whether those who recommended the book for publication had checked the footnotes. That would have been a big job: Deceit and Denial has more than 1,200 footnotes, many citing more than one source. The prevailing practice at university presses is that manuscript reviewers are not expected to check footnotes; Lynne Withey, director of the University of California Press, asked, "How could you expect people to do that?" In fact, the documents in Rosner and Markowitz's footnotes were checked thoroughly before publication by attorneys for both PBS and HBO: PBS ran a Bill Moyers documentary in 2001 on cancer caused by chemicals in consumer products, based on Rosner and Markowitz's research; and HBO ran an award-winning documentary in 2002, Blue Vinyl, based on some of the same research. What's the point of deposing manuscript reviewers for university presses? Blanche Wiesen Cook, Distinguished Professor of History at the Graduate Center of the City University of New York, former vice president for research of the AHA, award-winning biographer of Eleanor Roosevelt and one of the historians who were deposed, called it "harassment to silence independent research" and an effort to create "a chilling effect on folks who tell the truth." What's it like to be deposed in this situation? Markowitz's deposition lasted five and a half days. He said, "You face fifteen or sixteen lawyers, none of whom like you, and all of whom are trying to trick you." Cook's deposition took only an hour, but it was "an hour of battering and legal tricks, and the goal was to trip you up and get you confused," she said. "They kept asking me how long I had known Gerry Markowitz. I said, 'Are you asking if I had an affair?' They said, 'No, why are you asking that?' I said, 'Where I come from, that's the implication of your question.' They said, 'Where do you come from?'" This seems pretty far from the question of vinyl chloride and cancer. Scholars like Cook and Blackmar who review manuscripts for university presses don't do it for the money--UC Press typically provides $300 in free books or $150 in cash--but rather out of a sense of obligation and duty; they certainly don't expect to have to defend their recommendation under oath in the face of hostile questioning from a dozen corporate lawyers. Should UC Press have done more to protect its manuscript reviewers and its review process? Should it have resisted the subpoena for the reviewers' names and information? UC Press director Withey says that if this had been the typical manuscript where the reviewers had been promised confidentiality, "I would not have revealed names of reviewers. That would have gotten us into a sticky situation, I'm sure." William Forbath, Lloyd Bentsen Professor of Law at the University of Texas, says any effort to resist a subpoena for reviewers' names and information would have been "in vain." If the information in question is relevant to the case, he says, "there is no general privacy privilege outside of the attorney-client privilege, the spousal privilege, the doctor-patient privilege and the priest-penitent privilege--that exhausts it. The publisher promises its manuscript readers confidentiality, but that doesn't count for squat in the context of a legal proceeding." Rosner and Markowitz are part of a larger trend in which historians are appearing in court more often as expert witnesses. One reason is the growing number of cases in which companies are being accused of wrongdoing based on evidence that workers and consumers are suffering illness and disability because they were exposed to asbestos, lead, silica or other chemicals. In every case, the exposure began decades ago, and thus in every case, the central legal question is a historical one: When did the companies first learn of the health dangers posed by their products? At what point in the past can they be held responsible? A second reason is a consequence of the failure of governmental regulatory agencies to act. Now, in an era of Republican domination, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration and the Environmental Protection Agency, originally created to protect the health of workers and the public, tend to be industry-dominated. As a result, the courts have become, in the words of Rosner and Markowitz, "one of the last venues where workers and communities might find some form of justice." In the past, each side in corporate liability cases has presented experts who debated the evidence in the corporate documents. This case marks a new departure, because the strategy of the chemical companies is to charge the plaintiff's expert with unethical conduct. Will this ploy succeed? The logic of the argument is dubious: So what if some of the manuscript reviewers for Deceit and Denial knew the authors? What ought to decide the case are the facts about what the chemical companies knew about cancer and when they knew it. On the other hand, juries don't know much about publishing history books. It's possible that a jury could be convinced that something was wrong with a book whose manuscript reviewers didn't check footnotes, and with a publisher that did not maintain strict confidentiality in the manuscript review process. Most of these corporate liability cases are settled before going to a jury, but the willingness of the companies to settle is based on their estimate of the persuasiveness of the witnesses against them and their guesses about the jury. This case, originally scheduled to go to trial in February, has been rescheduled for September. This article can be found on the web at: < http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20050207&s=wiener > [requires subscription] -- H-SCI-MED-TECH The H-Net list for the History of Science, Medicine and Technology Email address for postings: h-sci-med-tech at h-net.msu.edu Homepage: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/~smt/ To unsubscribe or change your subscription options, please use the Web Interface: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/lists/manage. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 23 18:17:04 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 19:17:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution and an Inquiry about SMI2LE In-Reply-To: <20050121231136.67294.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050121231136.67294.qmail@web52601.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205012310176a944179@mail.gmail.com> Thanks Brian for this very interesting first post to the list. Don't fear rejection, and don't take seriously those who behave rudely to newcomers. I have been on this list for many years now and, despite the occasional misunderstandings and unpleasant behaviour which happen in all online communities, find that this list is full of very interesting people and can provide a lot of interesting things to read, think about and discuss. Leary's SMI2LE seems a bit forgotten this days but perhaps will become fashionable again. I would add cognitive sciences and brain mapping to your list. You could start reading the proceedings of the two NBIC conferences (google "nbic converging"). Giulio On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 15:11:36 -0800 (PST), Brian Campbell wrote: > > > > A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution > > and an Inquiry Concerning Aspects of Knowledge Specific to Leary's SMI2LE > Theory > > A Call to Arms in the War of Evolution > > I choose here to speak my mind because I am finding it more and more > difficult to discuss and advance my theories. I know less than 6 people who > are interested and advanced enough to really stimulate my mind. Revelations > are becoming fewer and further between ever passing day and i grow more and > more bored. I know of no better place to find the stimulation i need than > here. I seek your knowledge and wisdom. I have read the extropy chat and > have been really apprehensive about posting because i fear rejection by > those older and more intelligent thinkers whom i respect so much. I would > ask u try to look over my grammar errors. I have tried my best to make this > as legible as possible. Now on with the show. > > I seek to absorb all the knowledge i can, process it , and spread it too all > that are interested. I seek knowledge in every form I can, from writings of > all kinds, experience (my own and anyone else's who chooses to share), and > conversations/debates. I take in this information , process it based on my > previous info, and use it as much as I can to further my understanding of > the nature of everything. I share all I know in hopes of getting feedback on > alternate points of view, flaws in my theories, and/or new > connections/possibilities. This is the meaning of my life. I tell u this > here because it is the most meaningful thing I can see in life and in hopes > that someone reading this will be inspired or at the very least that this > will get them to thinking. I am what Leary calls an Intelligence Agent, and > this is my call to arms. > > In my opinion, (as everything i say is, of course. so i wont bother stating > this further) the purpose of all things in our known universe is to evolve. > Our universe is a system, not unlike an exponentially more large and complex > computer than those we have created. It is a self-evolving system based on > some fundamental rules. As the system gets more complex, there is much more > potential in the system for positivity and negativity (in this case just > think of it as simply evolution and de-evolution respectively, as i don't > feel this is the time or place to go further into my theories on chaotic > positivity and negativity). This increase in positive/negative potential > cannot be avoided. It is the reward/cost of evolution. > > All things go through the process of the metaphysical trinity (dynamism, > stasis, entropy, and back to dynamism). This process ensures that all things > grow until they reach a barrier or limit of some kind (current technology or > information, for instance). They then break down when a new possibility > becomes available (certain old aspects in favor of new "potentially" better > aspects, survival of the fittest, if u will) allowing for further growth and > expansion. > > The universe has reached a point were it has created a system advanced > enough for creative/ complex thought and a free will beyond anything else we > currently know of (a stage in which the universe "computer" has created AI). > Being the most advanced (as far as we know) system in this universe we have > been given the greatest power for change (by system here I mean the human > race). Our job (our meaning of life) is to further the evolution of all we > can. We will do this one way or the other, consciously or not.The question > is do u actively participate (to greatly speed up the evolution) or do u > passively ride the chaos at the whim of whoever/whatever chooses to act upon > u ? This is a question of power. Do u control or be controlled?Are u a > shepherd or a sheep? Do you blissfully sleep or take active part in the > greatest adventure of our times? Of course, thats only my 2 cents. Take it > as u will. > > > > An Inquiry Concerning Aspects of Knowledge Specific to Leary's SMI2LE Theory > > > > I am requesting your help to further SMI2LE (SM= space migration, I2= > intelligence increase, LE= life expectancy ). I have made a list of the > areas of study that i feel would be most beneficial to the I2 and LE parts > (the 2 of most interest to myself) . I was hoping to get your opinions and > any info u know on the subjects as it relates to SMI2LE or resources (online > preferably) where I could find the info for myself. I am researching this > because i want to eventually get into one of these areas as a career so i > can do my best to further SMI2LE. Here is my list with brief details on the > parts of the field i find most important. Thank you in advance for any > comments/help u may offer. > > 1) Biochemistry (the cell-chemical relations inside the human body) > > 2) Neurology (structure and development on the cellular level) > > 3) Free radicals and other things that influence DNA/cells entropy or growth > > 4) DNA ( structure/development/breakdown/manipulation. to "force" biological > evolution through manipulation) > > 5) Biomechanics ( biological and mechanical interface/interaction. to > electronically/mechanically evolve mental/physical capabilities) > > 6) Nanotechnology (research/development , function/use theories, development > problems/solutions) > > Neommox at yahoo.com From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Jan 23 19:26:35 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 13:26:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b050123112625b293f1@mail.gmail.com> Sunday, 23 January 2005 On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 I posted a draft list of >H-themed charities. The list now exists on the social bookmarks manager del.icio.us. Find it at the following link. http://del.icio.us/tag/charity+transhumanism Get a RSS feed for changes from that page or from here. http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/charity+transhumanism This page returns the results of searching for all bookmarks on del.icio.us tagged with both "charity" and "transhumanism" If you want to add a charity, del.icio.us makes this possible. Just open an account, bookmark the organization or individual, and tag the bookmark accordingly. -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From natasha at natasha.cc Sun Jan 23 20:22:40 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 14:22:40 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050123112625b293f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> <5366105b050123112625b293f1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050123142155.02268ec0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Jay, Why not put these in alphabetical order? In other words, why put ExI at the bottom of the list? Kind regards, Natasha At 01:26 PM 1/23/2005, you wrote: >Sunday, 23 January 2005 > > >On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 I posted a draft list of >H-themed charities. The >list now exists on the social bookmarks manager del.icio.us. Find it >at the following link. > >http://del.icio.us/tag/charity+transhumanism > >Get a RSS feed for changes from that page or from here. > >http://del.icio.us/rss/tag/charity+transhumanism > >This page returns the results of searching for all bookmarks on >del.icio.us tagged with both "charity" and "transhumanism" > >If you want to add a charity, del.icio.us makes this possible. Just >open an account, bookmark the organization or individual, and tag the >bookmark accordingly. > >-- >Jay Dugger >BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ >HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ >LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger >Sometimes the delete key serves best. >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Jan 23 20:42:17 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:42:17 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hans Moravec article In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050122193155.02b9b900@mail.gmu.edu> References: <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050123154112.0333a110@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> I am slightly surprised that nobody mentioned this Scientific American story about him. http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=30&articleID=00078A55-0CE7-11BF-AD0683414B7F0000 It was in the January issue. Keith Henson From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 23 21:25:19 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 15:25:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hans Moravec article References: <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050123152408.01a5e778@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:42 PM 1/23/2005 -0500, Keith Henson wrote: >I am slightly surprised that nobody mentioned this Scientific American >story about him. > >http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=30&articleID=00078A55-0CE7-11BF-AD0683414B7F0000 I did so a little over a month ago, Dec 20. Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Jan 23 22:32:00 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 17:32:00 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hans Moravec article In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050123152408.01a5e778@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> <025e01c4ff5d$32bb65c0$b8232dcb@homepc> <6.2.0.14.2.20050120223426.02e10d78@mail.gmu.edu> <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050123173148.0334e070@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 03:25 PM 23/01/05 -0600, you wrote: >At 03:42 PM 1/23/2005 -0500, Keith Henson wrote: > >>I am slightly surprised that nobody mentioned this Scientific American >>story about him. >> >>http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=30&articleID=00078A55-0CE7-11BF-AD0683414B7F0000 > >I did so a little over a month ago, Dec 20. > >Damien Broderick Sorry, I missed it. Keith From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 05:41:55 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:41:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Open-Source Biology Evolves In-Reply-To: <9B8BEE7A-6D7D-11D9-923F-000A95D9E922@msh.biglobe.ne.jp> References: <9B8BEE7A-6D7D-11D9-923F-000A95D9E922@msh.biglobe.ne.jp> Message-ID: <470a3c5205012321412f2cef84@mail.gmail.com> To push research forward, scientists need to draw from the best data and innovations in their field. Much of the work, however, is patented, leaving many academic and nonprofit researchers hamstrung. But an Australian organization advocating an open-source approach to biology hopes to free up biological data without violating intellectual property rights. The battle lies between biotech companies like multinational Monsanto, who can grant or deny the legal use of biological information, and independent organizations like The Biological Innovation for Open Society, or BIOS, and Science Commons. The indies want to give scientists free access to the latest methods in biotechnology through the web. BIOS will soon launch an open-source platform that promises to free up rights to patented DNA sequences and the methods needed to manipulate biological material. Users must only follow BIOS' "rules of engagement," which are similar to those used by the open-source software community. http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,66289,00.html From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 06:03:13 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:03:13 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> References: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205012322033c26d57f@mail.gmail.com> Jay, in which sense do you consider the IEET "overly political"? G. On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:12:05 -0600, Jay Dugger wrote: > Saturday, 01 January 2005 > > Hello all: > > After soliciting suggestions from both lists late last year, I > did a little research of my own. Below find a list of "transhumanist" > themed charities. I admit to using a vague term. It might mean at most > a list of charities that most self-described transhumanists would > consider worthy beneficiaries. Some examples of rejected charities > follow at the list's end.If you've more suggestions, please post them > back to the list. > * REJECTED > o Overly Political > + IEET > + American Libertarian Party > + Free State Project > + Cato Institute From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 24 07:49:24 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:49:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Peter Pan Syndrome In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050124074924.16870.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Harvey Newstrom wrote: > Interesting. I have heard the same comment in > reverse. I am > frequently told that I have the "Peter Pan Syndrome" > because I don't > want to grow up, grow old, and die. I want to stay > young forever. PPS refers to not growing up mentally - and says nothing about refusing to grow old as separate from growing up. If one is psychologically capable of accepting adult responsibilities and handling them in the responsible manner, one is not suffering from PPS, even if one desires to have a physically young body and a mind that loses none of its capabilities (especially for learning) even after many centuries or millenia of life. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 24 07:54:46 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2005 23:54:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050121195231.14901.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050124075446.28614.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > The government child warehouse and > indoctrination > centers want to chemically castrate the frontal > lobes of those with the > greatest ability to imagine and inquire, question > and contest authority. No they don't. Even if they sincerely wanted those ends (a conclusion which is questionable), their current, non-chemical methods are far more effective and affordable. Almost no one truly wishes to waste money or other resources for no gain, no matter what it may seem like. From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 24 08:08:41 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 00:08:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <20050121204944.7030.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050124080841.63755.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > More than that. A ferrous asteroid delivered to LEO > 1 km in dia would > be worth several trillion dollars. Umm, no, it'd be worth $0 until it gets to the Earth's surface. Remember, the funding models we're discussing assume *NO* space industry, since the investment payoff ends well before significant space industry can be started - and thus, well before you can have any customers for iron in space. However, if you select the right asteroid, just the precious metals should be worth several trillion dollars upon delivery to the Earth's surface. So you can still pay off the investors...and then use the rest of the asteroid to jumpstart space industry, creating a market for the asteroid you own. The only snag is that you can't use those profits to pay for moving the asteroid in the first place; you have to stick with mining the highest-value pieces for that phase. > Precious metals would be present in such asteroids, > but only in such > quantities to be of interest to smugglers working on > mining/refining > them in orbit. One would select an asteroid with a relatively high amount of precious metals (as revealed by observation and, probably, confirmed up close by a prospector probe before the asteroid-moving equipment is launched). One wouldn't grab just any asteroid - target selection is of critical importance in this sceme. > Venous metals deposits are not typical of asteroids, > as metal and other > mineral veins found on earth are generally an > artifact of hydrothermal > leaching processes. Asteroids instead accrete > material based on the > orbits they are in, with higher volatility materials > accreting at > greater distance from the sun. Asteroids are also occasionally blasted into chunks by collisions with other asteroids or comets; if they are differentiated at all, their cores - which become new asteroids - have more of the metal. A very few asteroids formed that way have very high content of all kinds of metals (including precious); those are the ones you'd want to target. From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 24 09:19:34 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 01:19:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050120035715.91094.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050120035715.91094.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0FECE073-6DE9-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Of course there is another possibility that I feel confident you are bright enough to think of. -s On Jan 19, 2005, at 7:57 PM, Ned Late wrote: > Femi-nutsy. Like the women in my family! > > ? > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > Okay, come up with a non-loaded term that describes a feminist who > believes in the chemical castration of all men. > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 743 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 24 09:40:04 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 01:40:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <41F1722A.8070707@pobox.com> References: <20050121195231.14901.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <41F1722A.8070707@pobox.com> Message-ID: At times it is less malicious to attribute actual malice than to believe that an entire major enterprise of critical importance such as educating the next generation is in the hands of complete and utter incompetents. I find it often useful to assume that others, particularly large groups of others, are, or contain those who are, at least as intelligent as I am. Since I could not design educational philosophy and practice to produce such horrendously poor results by accident I do not believe that it was accidental. - samantha On Jan 21, 2005, at 1:20 PM, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > Mike Lorrey wrote: >> That the public schools do this is >> not an accident. The government child warehouse and indoctrination >> centers want to chemically castrate the frontal lobes of those with >> the >> greatest ability to imagine and inquire, question and contest >> authority. > > Don't be ridiculous. Attribute ye not to malice what can be > adequately explained by stupidity, greed, and bad organizational > incentives. > > -- > Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ > Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 24 10:25:13 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 02:25:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Stalinist transgender 'warrior' In-Reply-To: <20050122063007.81855.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050122063007.81855.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BACBFEA-6DF2-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Mr. Late. Transgender is an umbrella term that in modern usage is often applied to all who bend normal gender roles or expectations in any respect whatsoever. In my opinion it is too broad a term by far. However, being transgender is in no wise something undesirable or undesirable for participation in transhumanist/extropian circles. I myself am transsexual having completed the change some 13 years ago. Now I am sure you did not intend to insult me personally or others on this list and/or in transhumanism. It is amazing to me when people supposedly quite comfortable with augmentation, uploads and so on will turn around and put down those who today for reasons of medical treatment of diagnosed disorder or personal choice are in some way physically, socially, hormonally or however changed. It seems pretty hypocritical and unimaginative not to mention lacking in both imagination and compassion. - samantha On Jan 21, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Ned Late wrote: > Here is a link from the Betterhumans Site: > http://www.transgenderwarrior.org/activism/ > With friends like transgender Stalinists, we wont > need enemies. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From neptune at superlink.net Mon Jan 24 11:54:47 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 06:54:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Robot Music @ Juilliard Message-ID: <005801c5020b$8144e940$f4893cd1@pavilion> Look, Ma-No Hands! By MARI KIMURA A remarkable recital in Paul Hall this month will include organ, piano, and guitar music-but not a single human performer. Titled "RoboRecital" and presented by composition student J. Brendan Adamson, it will feature three robot performers: GuitarBot, a self-playing guitar; an automated pipe organ; and a Yamaha Disklavier, a modern player piano. LEMUR's self-playing GuitarBot extends performance capabilities beyond that of a human guitarist. Before anybody frets, take note: Haydn, C.P.E. Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, and Cherubini are among the many composers who used "robots" of their time, including mechanical or automated, self-playing organs. The idea of composers bypassing performers is not new. Throughout history, composers have been intrigued by the idea that their music might pass directly to the listener, without being limited by the human hand or the interpretations of the performer. More recently, in the 1920s and '30s, Conlon Nancarrow elevated the idea of the machine as a superhuman performer, writing works for player pianos. Percy Grainger, in his 1938 essay "Free Music," wrote: "Machines (if properly constructed and properly written for) are capable of niceties of emotional expression impossible to a human performer." An undergraduate composition major studying with Christopher Rouse, Brendan is also studying at Juilliard's Music Technology Center, directed by Edward Bilous. This concert is the outgrowth of his independent study in computer music performance, which he has been pursuing with me with special permission to enroll in my graduate course. Brendan's interest is in acoustic instruments, electronically controlled. He explains that "while it may seem more practical to bypass the performer by relying on sampling or synthesis of sounds purely in the electronic medium, the automation approach retains the richness of the source acoustic instrument and offers the visual interest of a live instrumental performance." At the concert, Brendan will present his own works written for automated organ, Yamaha Disklavier, and GuitarBot, a mechanical robot created in 2002 by LEMUR (League of Electronic Musical Urban Robots). He will also present J. S. Bach's Die Kunst der Fuge, BWV 1080, Contrapuncti Nos. 2 and 3, performed by GuitarBot, and Mozart's Allegro und Andante (Fantasia in F Minor, K.608) written for self-playing organ. Although several practical editions for human performer have been made, Mozart's piece will be heard in its original form for self-playing organ on Brendan's concert. Another work to be presented on this RoboRecital, Brendan's Two Studies for Player Piano (2002), was featured at this year's Music at the Anthology Festival, produced by Philip Glass. Brendan writes in the program note: "The Disklavier is valued for its ability to record and reproduce a live pianist's performance, but its ability to exceed the capabilities of a human performer have made it compelling to composers." Also featured will be Brendan's Three Studies for Automated Organ (2004), written for the newly renovated and refurbished pipe organ in Paul Hall. Although it is an acoustic instrument, every function available to an organist at the console can be controlled by computer. Brendan writes, "Automating these functions not only overcomes problems of performer ability but more importantly allows for new sound possibilities that could not be reproduced by a live organist." I am also currently collaborating with LEMUR and using GuitarBot to perform GuitarBotana, my recent work for violin, GuitarBot, and interactive computer. We have been performing together at several international music festivals this year, and were featured on CNN Headline News. GuitarBot was created through the leadership of musician and engineer Eric Singer, LEMUR's founder, with a philosophy to build robotic instruments that play themselves. GuitarBot is a stringed instrument that is designed to extend-not simply duplicate-the capabilities of a human musician. It can pick and slide extremely rapidly and responds to musical commands from a composed score or generated in real time. For further information on LEMUR, please visit their Web site at www.lemurbots.org. Are the machines replacing humans? Why is this concert being held at Juilliard, the pinnacle of performing arts studies? I believe this concert is happening exactly where it should: where we are continuing our musical tradition. Long before the last century, composers including Bach, Mozart, and Beethoven were versatile musicians who performed, improvised, and utilized the latest musical technology available in their time. In his use of technology on his RoboRecital, Brendan is merely following tradition. http://www.juilliard.edu/update/journal/j_articles385.html From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 11:57:32 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:57:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] IRANSCOPE: Transhumanism and a Tribute to FM-2030 Message-ID: <470a3c520501240357326fb497@mail.gmail.com> IRANSCOPE has a tribute to FM-2030 (Fereidoun Esfandiary) with a short profile of his life and work, and a short outline of the transhumanist worldview, which the author considers important for Iran's futurist movement. Worth reading. Transhumanism with trans meaning transition from human to post-human is no longer an unknown philosophy, and it has important supporters, such as the WTA association or public figures such as K. Eric Drexler, the founder of the field of nanotechnology and author of the book Engines of Creation, and Marvin Minsky, a cofounder of the field of Artifical Intelligence and author of the book Society of Mind. Fereidoun Esfandiary was born in 1930 in Belgium and till the age of 11 had lived in 17 countries and called himself citizen of the universe and believed that "there are no illegal immigrants, only irrelevant borders," and in June 2000 he died in the U.S. and his body is cryogenically preserved at the Alcor foundation. He thought that he was a 21st Century human accidently born in the 20th Century and had changed his name to FM-2030. The famous scientist and futurist of our times, Ray Kurzweil, in his recent book Fantastic Voyage, which he has copublished with Terry Grossman, the ideas of transhumanism about the future of human biological existence are shown with scientific research and he has introduced the view that within 20 years, immortality is within the reach of human beings. In my opinion, the discussions of World Transhuman Association WTA are very important for Iran's futurist movement and it is good if issues of Future Human Evolution be discussed in the Iranian intellectual circles. http://www.ghandchi.com/368-transhumanismEng.htm From neptune at superlink.net Mon Jan 24 15:48:32 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:48:32 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Fight Begins Once Again to Waste More Money on the Hubble Message-ID: <008201c5022c$28ca72a0$49893cd1@pavilion> http://www.space.com/news/hubble_wars_050124.html From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 24 17:09:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:09:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] William Safire edging toward transhumanism Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050124110604.01b03ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Amazing! The NYT's conservative is embracing a sort of transhumanist agenda and new job: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/24/opinion/24safire2.html?th < We're all living longer. In the past century, life expectancy for Americans has risen from 47 to 77. With cures for cancer, heart disease and stroke on the way, with genetic engineering, stem cell regeneration and organ transplants a certainty, the boomer generation will be averting illness, patching itself up and pushing well past the biblical limits of "threescore and ten." But to what purpose? If the body sticks around while the brain wanders off, a longer lifetime becomes a burden on self and society. Extending the life of the body gains most meaning when we preserve the life of the mind. > www.Dana.org - that opened some channels among scientists, journalists and people seeking reliable information about the exciting field. Experience as a Times polemicist made it easier to wade into the public controversies of science. Dana philanthropy provides forums to debate neuroethics: Is it right to push beyond treatment for mental illness to enhance the normal brain? Should we level human height with growth hormones? Is cloning ever morally sound? Does a drug-induced sense of well-being undermine "real" happiness? Such food for thought is now becoming my meat. > < But how many of us are planning now for our social activity accounts? Intellectual renewal is not a vast new government program, and to secure continuing social interaction deepens no deficit. By laying the basis for future activities in the midst of current careers, we reject stultifying retirement and seize the opportunity for an exhilarating second wind. Medical and genetic science will surely stretch our life spans. Neuroscience will just as certainly make possible the mental agility of the aging. Nobody should fail to capitalize on the physical and mental gifts to come. > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 17:22:22 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 09:22:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The Fight Begins Once Again to Waste More Money on the Hubble In-Reply-To: <008201c5022c$28ca72a0$49893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050124172222.24562.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > http://www.space.com/news/hubble_wars_050124.html Has anyone proposed BUYING Hubble? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From neptune at superlink.net Mon Jan 24 18:53:52 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:53:52 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cancer Passes Heart Disease as Top Killer Message-ID: <003901c50246$0d2f5820$7f893cd1@pavilion> http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/20/health/20cancer.html From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 24 18:57:56 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:57:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Feynman's 1963 Lecture - The Uncertainty of Science In-Reply-To: <00a001c500d9$1fa04eb0$b8232dcb@homepc> Message-ID: <20050124185756.1617.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brett Paatsch wrote: > I can *almost* imagine Feynman suggesting folks just > get on out and > do some observing and testing right after the > lecture on there very own > garage synchrotrons and supercolliders and then to > be sure to send him > a cheerio if they find anything interesting. That is indeed the ideal of science. The reality - that most people can not afford the tools to do that - is an often underappreciated consequence: to get more science, make the tools to do cutting edge work more affordable. Sponsor R&D for cheaper tools; subsidize tool purchases; et cetera. Financial constraints do not invalidate the ideal. They may make the ideal impossible to attain in many cases, but the basic concept - if you let a bunch of people try various ideas in a certain topic, and investigate any usual and interesting findings regardless of who first comes up with them, you'll find out more about reality (which does not care who first discovers its various laws) - remains correct. (As an example, fusion research. Confine research to a few large mega-expensive reactors, and we got little progress for decades. Come out with tabletop and other small-scale fusion reactors, and watch the problems finally start to unravel - even though there is a fundamental physical reason why small fusion reactors are much harder to make work well than big ones.) From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 24 19:44:55 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:44:55 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cancer Passes Heart Disease as Top Killer In-Reply-To: <003901c50246$0d2f5820$7f893cd1@pavilion> References: <003901c50246$0d2f5820$7f893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050124134152.01a22ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/20/health/20cancer.html I posted an url about this as well on the 20th, complete with snippy comment about inane journalists. Cancer has *not* `passed' heart disease; its rate has just fallen more slowly. Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 19:53:34 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:53:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Stalinist transgender 'warrior' In-Reply-To: <3BACBFEA-6DF2-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050124195334.58362.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have nothing whatsoever against transgenders. It is Leslie Feinberg's neo-Stalinism that is ominous. Stalinists and neo-Stalinists are totalists, with a different ideology than fascists yet advocating the same system of exile, imprisonment, torture, execution. This is a subject I can speak with authority on as I was at one time associated with the same political party, WWP, that she is a member of. Don't you think Stalinists & neo-Stalinists lack imagination and compassion? http://www.workers.org Samantha Atkins wrote: Mr. Late. Transgender is an umbrella term that in modern usage is often applied to all who bend normal gender roles or expectations in any respect whatsoever. In my opinion it is too broad a term by far. However, being transgender is in no wise something undesirable or undesirable for participation in transhumanist/extropian circles. I myself am transsexual having completed the change some 13 years ago. Now I am sure you did not intend to insult me personally or others on this list and/or in transhumanism. It is amazing to me when people supposedly quite comfortable with augmentation, uploads and so on will turn around and put down those who today for reasons of medical treatment of diagnosed disorder or personal choice are in some way physically, socially, hormonally or however changed. It seems pretty hypocritical and unimaginative not to mention lacking in both imagination and compassion. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 19:59:33 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 11:59:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <0FECE073-6DE9-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050124195933.15037.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, feminists. Most feminists are quite reasonable, considering how men dominate and abuse women. However, "feminazis" (for lack of a better term) do exist, albeit their numbers are small. Samantha Atkins wrote:Of course there is another possibility that I feel confident you are bright enough to think of. -s --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 24 20:03:00 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:03:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Moon is a Harsh Movie Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050124135910.019dac70@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Some fairly silly soundbites: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue405/news.html ====== Minear's Moon Still Rises Tim Minear, who is adapting Robert A. Heinlein's classic SF novel The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress for the screen, told SCI FI Wire that he just completed the latest draft of the screenplay. "I just actually turned in my next pass at it this morning [Jan. 17] to [producers] David Heyman and Mike Medavoy," Minear said in an interview while promoting his new Fox series The Inside. "The next step is they read it and maybe give me more notes or take it to a director or whatever." It's been a pet project for Minear to adapt Heinlein's difficult Hugo-Award-winning 1966 book, about the rebellion of a former lunar penal colony against the Lunar Authority that controls it from Earth. "[It's] very difficult to adapt," Minear said. "It's interesting. I kept a lot more from the book than people may have expected. The light {presumably a transcription blooper for `line'} marriages are still there. The free trade with Earth is still there. The catapult is still there. And, you know, it's not a silly arm on a fulcrum or something. The idea is this sort of Ferris wheel thing that takes it up over the gravity well and drops to Earth. {Whaaa--? Oh my dog.} The thing that I changed from the book is that Mike, the computer, manifests himself visually, so he's not just a voice. {He's not just a voice in the book} But what I've done is I've given the citizens of Luna ocular 'ident stamps,' which are the equivalent of prisoner tattoos, and Mike finds a way into the personalized signature of people, so he can show himself to you, but no one else can see him. So that's maybe the thing I added." ========= Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 24 20:09:57 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 12:09:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050124200957.99127.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Since I could not > design educational > philosophy and practice to produce such horrendously > poor results by > accident I do not believe that it was accidental. Inappicable. Accidents are almost never designed. From neptune at superlink.net Mon Jan 24 20:28:08 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:28:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Free Banking FAQ Message-ID: <007901c50253$38c1e720$7f893cd1@pavilion> I've updated my "Free Banking FAQ" to such an extent that I now consider it no longer under construction.:) This, of course, does not mean I'll never ever revise it. The result can be found at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/BankFAQ.html I would appreciate any comments for improving it. Also, if you think there's some question or information I've left out, please let me know, on list or off. Regards, Dan Note my new URL: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/ From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 21:10:50 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:10:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Stalinist transgender 'warrior' In-Reply-To: <20050124195334.58362.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <3BACBFEA-6DF2-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> <20050124195334.58362.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f05012413103e5bf107@mail.gmail.com> "I have nothing whatsoever against transgenders." Then I imagine you should have said "with Stalinists like this on our side, we won't need enemies" rather than "with transgendered Stalinists like this [...]", the latter of which implies that being transgendered & Stalinist is worse than "plain" Stalinist. "It is Leslie Feinberg's neo-Stalinism that is ominous. Stalinists and neo-Stalinists are totalists, with a different ideology than fascists yet advocating the same system of exile, imprisonment, torture, execution." Could you point out where on Feinberg's site, or on the WWP's site, any gross exile, imprisonment, torture, or execution is advocated? Or is your reason for this strong claim purely anecdotal? J.A.M. From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 22:14:57 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:14:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Stalinist transgender 'warrior' In-Reply-To: <5844e22f05012413103e5bf107@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050124221457.97441.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A transgendered Stalinist/neo-Stalinist in the 21st century is an embarrassment & insult to transgenders as a whole. A Nazi is embarrassing, a transgendered Nazi would be even more embarrassing and insulting to transgenders. Then I imagine you should have said "with Stalinists like this on our side, we won't need enemies" rather than "with transgendered Stalinists like this [...]", the latter of which implies that being transgendered & Stalinist is worse than "plain" Stalinist. My evidence is anecdotal & empirical. WWP and its satellite groups are determined Leninists advocating violent revolution, the destruction of the bourgeoisie. Of course they are not going to advertise such! Are Nazis going to say "we want to ship blacks back to Africa and kill the jews"? I worked with WWP for a year, I've monitored them ever since, they are Stalinists/neo-Stalinists. Read their website very carefully, you will see. Could you point out where on Feinberg's site, or on the WWP's site, any gross exile, imprisonment, torture, or execution is advocated? Or is your reason for this strong claim purely anecdotal? J --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 22:17:46 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:17:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050124195933.15037.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050124221746.35173.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Or are you referring to 'harridans', man-haters with no defined political or social agenda? Of course there is another possibility that I feel confident you are bright enough to think of. -s --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 22:28:39 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:28:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050124195933.15037.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050124222839.67383.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > Yes, feminists. Most feminists are quite reasonable, considering how > men dominate and abuse women. However, "feminazis" (for lack of a > better term) do exist, albeit their numbers are small. > > Samantha Atkins wrote:Of course there is another > possibility that I feel confident you are > bright enough to think of. Lets examine the assumptions made in this statement. The assumptions are that men dominate and abuse women, and that the number of feminazis to feminists is small. However, lets look at the following: Biologists studying animal species are able to determine gender dominance by several characteristics: a) significant size disparity. b) significant intelligence disparity. c) disproportionate burden of labor. d) statistically significant differences in life span, incidence of disease, injury, etc. longer lived gender is the domiant gender. e) sigificant differences in distinguishing coloration. flamboyant coloration is always the dominant gender. f) disporportionate incidence of violence by one gender against the other. So, lets see how species homo sapiens fares in this list: a) While men have a slight size dominance over women, average size difference does not exceed 5-6% in humans, and the disparity has changed significantly over the ages toward parity. b) as noted previously, average IQ betwee men and women is the same, although standard deviation for men is significantly higher. c) Men are penalized by the legal system, are rarely, if ever, given preference in child custody, and are given the burden of proof in disputes over conduct in marriage and child raising. Men are served with restraining orders, eviction orders, and other punishing orders based merely on the say-so of their spouse, but men must provide evidentiary support to obtain similar orders against their spouses. More than ten times as many men are incarcerated than women, despite women committing more than 10% of crime, while boys are persecuted in the school system for behaving like boys and not girls. Men are expected to pay child support in an overwhelming number of cases, are declared the father based merely on the say-so of the mother even in spite of DNA evidence to the contrary, and women rarely pay child support when the situation is reversed. A woman can kidnap a fetus to another state, declare the name of the father, get child support orders against him, and he is never allowed any visitation rights. A father who does the same thing is automatically a criminal. d) In every society on earth, men live significantly shorter lives than women, despite women having to deal with significant medical traumas such as childbirth. e) female humans wear the dominant coloration, with flamboyant clothing, jewelry, and makeup while men are encouraged to wear neutral colors so as to not distract attention from their female companion. f) in studies on domestic violence, not only do they find that nearly twice as many women as men believe it is okay to commit violence against their mate, a similar proportion actually do commit violence against their mate. Men are discouraged by society, by the legal systems, from complaining about or prosecuting such abuse. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 22:29:46 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:29:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050124200957.99127.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050124222946.39249.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Since I could not > > design educational > > philosophy and practice to produce such horrendously > > poor results by > > accident I do not believe that it was accidental. > > Inappicable. Accidents are almost never designed. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Try again. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Mon Jan 24 23:23:30 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:23:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Free Banking FAQ Message-ID: <20050124232330.9A4C557E2A@finney.org> Technotranscendence writes: > I've updated my "Free Banking FAQ" to such an extent that I now consider > it no longer under construction.:) This, of course, does not mean I'll > never ever revise it. The result can be found at: > > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/BankFAQ.html > > I would appreciate any comments for improving it. Also, if you think > there's some question or information I've left out, please let me know, > on list or off. I thought this was good but here are some questions and comments to consider for future revisions. You should make it more clear right up front that free banking is fractional reserve banking. You say it is known as "fractional reserve free banking" but unfortunately that is slightly ambiguous and could be interpreted as meaning that these banks are free of fractional reserves, i.e. that they maintain 100% reserves. Since many of those suspicious of centralized banking also distrust fractional reserve banking, it would be better to make it clear that free banking discards the government monopoly but allows fractional reserves (although of course it does not require them). Maybe you could just move the last question, about fractional reserve vs 100% gold reserves, up to nearer the front. You have some technical terminology, such as speaking of notes trading "at par". It's not clear what this means. You also refer to "notes" and I'm not sure that the average person would associate this word with paper money. "Banknotes" might be less ambiguous. Of course it depends on whether your audience is assumed to already be familiar with financial terminology. A couple of other questions you could address: What about the problem that stores would not know which currency to denominate their prices in? Or what if you don't happen to have the currency in your wallet that a store wants to receive? Another point you might make is that we actually have a free banking system in the international arena. There is no world government to enforce a global currency. Generally each country has its own currency and its own banking policies, and currency speculators and traders affect the relative prices. Free banking would extend this laissez faire environment to a smaller scale, but we can already get a good idea of how it would work by witnessing the behavior of international currency flows. (Of course, proponents of the idea may object to attempts to relate it to reality since it allows for objective tests of the strength of free banking! It's much easier rhetorically to support an untested notion than one whose strengths and weaknesses are exposed before the public eye every day.) Hal From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 23:16:58 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:16:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Free Banking FAQ In-Reply-To: <007901c50253$38c1e720$7f893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050124231658.46797.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > I've updated my "Free Banking FAQ" to such an extent that I now > consider it no longer under construction.:) This, of course, does not mean I'll never ever revise it. The result can be found at: > > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/BankFAQ.html "What about deposit insurance? Private deposit insurance would most likely not exist under free banking. The ability to switch banks for consumers and investors and the ability for banks to branch and diversify would lessen the need for such insurance than under current systems. This makes it less likely for a free banking system to need or develop such insurance" Not true. Private deposit insurance already exists and banks use it to insure deposits in excess of the FDIC limit of $100,000.00. FDIC provides SUBSIDIZED insurance on deposits under $100,000.00. ANY society in which bank robbery, embezzlement, or swings in the market value of leined collateral exist will require deposit insurance. Deposit insurance DID exist before the FDIC, but was expensive because of the prevalence of bank robbery and the lack of accounting standards and open books requirements. Banks tended to self-insure with their own security staff, investing in secure facilities (which is why old banks look like fortresses), and lobbying for election of 'law and order' politicians, sheriffs, etc. "Gresham's Law only applies to legal tender systems, since under such systems the legally mandated money can drive out competitors" This is not true either. Gresham actually saw gold and silver certificates as the 'bad money' he was speaking of, versus coin/specie/boullion, which is what he was referring to as 'good' money. Gold and silversmith warehouse receipts came into such vogue during Gresham's age that smiths frequently over-issued such notes which occasionally resulted in panics and runs on empty warehouses. Fungible money is a recipe for capital flight. He was also referring to coin which was minted with less than its face value of precious metal. Money changers of the Baroque period often dickered with customers over the value of individual coins based on the year they were coined (as metal content waxed and waned based on the fortunes of the monarchy at any given period), and the weight of the coin, as the edge ridging had not been invented yet so people tended to shave metal from the edges of their coins. The sort of money we refer to as 'cash' today, paper reserve notes, were not considered 'money' per se but were considered as good as money depending on the credit of the individual or body issuing the note. I highly recommend reading Neal Stephenson's trilogy The Baroque Cycle to get a greater understanding of money and finance as it was before the advent of reserve banking and legal tender laws. You are also conflating fractional reserve banking versus full reserve monetary policy. The two are entirely different phenomena. US statute requires the Federal Reserve Bank to hold 100% of the value of the M1 money supply in other assets (made up of gold certificates, US T-bills, and other assets). I encourage you to look into the true value (not the statutory value) of the gold certificates held by the Federal Reserve. Also, the debt notes they hold as reserves are a claim on future tax receipts and are collateralized by land and other property in federal hands (it is an interesting study to watch how the expansion of the US national park and forest system accompanied growth in that governments need for credit, and belies the true purpose that system serves). As compared to this full reserve *compound money* system (FRNs are not fiat currency, despite what detractors say, it is backed by a basket of gold and land-backed debt. True fiat currency is currency issued by an entity that has no assets to collateralize the notes.) the fractional reserve banking system is one in which private deposits vs deposits kept in reserve describe a ratio that also equals the ratio of money spent into the economy by borroers versus the amount of private deposits. The reason this system can function (which are described by the M3 money supply minus the M1 money supply) so well is that the money borrowed by borrowers is really their own future earnings. The reserve ratio is adjusted over time by bankers to reflect future expectations of economic growth. When growth is expected to be low, the reserve ratio is lowered and loans are called in. When growth is expected to increase, the ratio is increased and banks can lend out more of the borrowers own money to themselves. You might at this point be a little confused. When it comes to private and commercial borrowing, a bank really only acts as an institute of verification to certify the likely future earning ability of a potential borrower, as reflected by past credit and income reports. In this respect fractional reserve banking uses Bayesian techniques to maximize the availability of money, minimize interest rates and potential losses, and maximize potential economic growth through the fuelling of a consumer economy. A banking system in which people cannot borrow their own future earnings today is in no way a 'free banking' system. It is really a system that enslaves workers and consumers to silver and gold miners. One way in which our current banking system can be made more free is merely to eliminate the monopoly of the federal reserve system, allowing banks to form their own reserve associations as they see fit. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 25 00:37:35 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 16:37:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050124222946.39249.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050125003735.77556.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > Since I could not > > > design educational > > > philosophy and practice to produce such > horrendously > > > poor results by > > > accident I do not believe that it was > accidental. > > > > Inappicable. Accidents are almost never designed. > > The Tacoma Narrows Bridge. Try again. That's why I said "almost". From neptune at superlink.net Tue Jan 25 01:16:23 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:16:23 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Free Banking FAQ References: <20050124232330.9A4C557E2A@finney.org> Message-ID: <016c01c5027b$7c9faf40$4d893cd1@pavilion> On Monday, January 24, 2005 6:23 PM Hal Finney hal at finney.org wrote: >> I've updated my "Free Banking FAQ" to such an >> extent that I now consider it no longer under >> construction.:) This, of course, does not mean I'll >> never ever revise it. The result can be found at: >> >> http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/BankFAQ.html >> >> I would appreciate any comments for improving it. >> Also, if you think there's some question or >> information I've left out, please let me know, on >> list or off. > > I thought this was good but here are some questions > and comments to consider for future revisions. Thanks! I would've contacted both you and Mike Lorrey earlier -- like a year or two ago -- so that the final product would be in a better state now. > You should make it more clear right up front that > free banking is fractional reserve banking. You > say it is known as "fractional reserve free banking" > but unfortunately that is slightly ambiguous and could > be interpreted as meaning that these banks are free > of fractional reserves, i.e. that they maintain 100% > reserves. Yes, I'll have to do something about that. Part of the problem is -- and this is no excuse for me -- that the terminology that seems to have stuck in the field is "free banking" = "a free market in banking that is generally fractional reserve." (It wouldn't disallow full reserve banks, but then it wouldn't disallow fractional reserves ones either.) I wish there were a better, widely used term because some people have even thought the term meant "banking with no charges or costs." After all, if I were talking about "free parking," most people wouldn't assume I'm discussing a free market in parking spaces.:) > Since many of those suspicious of centralized banking > also distrust fractional reserve banking, it would be > better to make it clear that free banking discards the > government monopoly but allows fractional reserves > (although of course it does not require them). Maybe > you could just move the last question, about fractional > reserve vs 100% gold reserves, up to nearer the front. I'll have to consider this last point. You might be right, but then the audience here is supposed to be general -- not specifically critics of the current banking system or those who're already somewhat familiar with full reserve banking or a free market in banking. > You have some technical terminology, such as speaking > of notes trading "at par". It's not clear what this means. Good catch. > You also refer to "notes" and I'm not sure that the average > person would associate this word with paper money. > "Banknotes" might be less ambiguous. Of course it > depends on whether your audience is assumed to > already be familiar with financial terminology. Another good catch. I should perhaps use banknotes throughout to avoid any ambiguity and clearly define that I mean by them things like actual paper money notes. > A couple of other questions you could address: What > about the problem that stores would not know which > currency to denominate their prices in? Or what if you > don't happen to have the currency in your wallet that a > store wants to receive? Good point. Of course, the answer is no more complicated than how stores now deal with foreign currencies. (And there's already historical examples of how merchants dealt with competing private currencies.) > Another point you might make is that we actually have > a free banking system in the international arena. There > is no world government to enforce a global currency. > Generally each country has its own currency and its > own banking policies, and currency speculators and > traders affect the relative prices. Free banking would > extend this laissez faire environment to a smaller scale, > but we can already get a good idea of how it would > work by witnessing the behavior of international currency flows. This is only partly correct as each government enforces what's accepted as legal tender within its borders and, in some cases, even mandates exchange ratios. > (Of course, proponents of the idea may object to > attempts to relate it to reality since it allows for > objective tests of the strength of free banking! It's > much easier rhetorically to support an untested notion > than one whose strengths and weaknesses are > exposed before the public eye every day.) Well, not exactly. First, there are other real world examples of free banking, though they're historical. There's a decent sized literature to test the theories against. Free banking theories, as they stand today, are largely based on looking at the history and drawing theoretical conclusions from that. It's actually a reaction to how previous theories were unable to deal with the actual dating from various episodes of free banking, when such episodes were considered in detail. (A lot of the previous theory on the subject just assumed free banking didn't work or was unstable because the contemporaneous critics of it argued that.) Second, many free banking proponents, such as Kevin Dowd, have argued in favor of national currencies over regional (i.e., transnational) currencies like the Euro because they believe the competition is better even if it's only limited to competing central banks. (Hayek argued much the same, but never seems to have happened on the idea of free banking.) Third and finally, one good thing about competing currencies in the world, so far, has been that it has worked to expose bad monetary policies. This actually is an argument in favor of free banking since what works on a global scale should work locally -- and there seem to be no sound theoretical reasons not to extend competition between national monies to competition within nations between different monies. Regards, Dan Note my new URL: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/ From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 25 03:20:28 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:20:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050124222839.67383.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050125032028.69509.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I take all these points. Nevertheless, men are willing to use force to get their way while women are generally (and I say generally) not willing to risk using force. Most intergender assaults are by male perpetrators. The other side to this war between the sexes is, as you describe below, women retailiate against men by arranging to have them manipulated by the legal system. > c) Men are penalized by the legal system, are > rarely, if ever, given > preference in child custody, and are given the > burden of proof in > disputes over conduct in marriage and child raising. > Men are served > with restraining orders, eviction orders, and other > punishing orders > based merely on the say-so of their spouse, but men > must provide > evidentiary support to obtain similar orders against > their spouses. > More than ten times as many men are incarcerated > than women, despite > women committing more than 10% of crime, while boys > are persecuted in > the school system for behaving like boys and not > girls. Men are > expected to pay child support in an overwhelming > number of cases, are > declared the father based merely on the say-so of > the mother even in > spite of DNA evidence to the contrary, and women > rarely pay child > support when the situation is reversed. A woman can > kidnap a fetus to > another state, declare the name of the father, get > child support orders > against him, and he is never allowed any visitation > rights. A father > who does the same thing is automatically a criminal. > d) In every society on earth, men live significantly > shorter lives than > women, despite women having to deal with significant > medical traumas > such as childbirth. > e) female humans wear the dominant coloration, with > flamboyant > clothing, jewelry, and makeup while men are > encouraged to wear neutral > colors so as to not distract attention from their > female companion. > f) in studies on domestic violence, not only do they > find that nearly > twice as many women as men believe it is okay to > commit violence > against their mate, a similar proportion actually do > commit violence > against their mate. Men are discouraged by society, > by the legal > systems, from complaining about or prosecuting such > abuse. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of > human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of > slaves." > -William Pitt > (1759-1806) > Blog: > http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 25 05:00:41 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 21:00:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? References: <20050125032028.69509.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001701c5029a$d1fcc530$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" >I take all these points. Nevertheless, men are willing > to use force to get their way while women are > generally (and I say generally) not willing to risk > using force. Women have more options than men - i.e., they learn from an early age how to get their way without having to use force. There's also "psychological force," at which women are very adept. As well, women have been known to "borrow" men's force/power for their own benefit (damsel in distress tied to the railroad track yells "help" to summons aid, expecting hero to risk his own life to help her out of her (latest) dilemma; uneducated buxom blonde actress marries rich old - practically dead - man, and as widow receives compensation when he dies). > The other side to this war between the sexes is, as > you describe below, women retailiate against men by > arranging to have them manipulated by the legal > system. ... and men let them get away with it. Where's the outrage? (there's some out there, but not enough, IMO) Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 05:56:24 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:56:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050125032028.69509.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050124222839.67383.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050125032028.69509.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52050124215639d5d420@mail.gmail.com> Some men try getting their war by using force, and most of the times they fail, while many women use all the other options available, including social and legal pressure, and often they succeed. Smartly spreading gossip and rumors can hurt your enemy much more thoroughly and permanently than giving him a good beating, also don't forget manipulation and psychological pressure. Give me an enemy who cannot do better than using physical force anytime. G. On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 19:20:28 -0800 (PST), Ned Late wrote: > I take all these points. Nevertheless, men are willing > to use force to get their way while women are > generally (and I say generally) not willing to risk > using force. Most intergender assaults are by male > perpetrators. > The other side to this war between the sexes is, as > you describe below, women retailiate against men by > arranging to have them manipulated by the legal > system. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 25 07:07:34 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 23:07:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050125032028.69509.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050125070734.29685.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > I take all these points. Nevertheless, men are willing > to use force to get their way while women are > generally (and I say generally) not willing to risk > using force. Most intergender assaults are by male > perpetrators. I am sorry, but every survey of domestic violence shows that this is just NOT TRUE. Far more men than women have been assulted by their partners. It is only because men tend to be physically more powerful (due to work or a greater emphasis on sports, etc) that women exhibit greater damage. I challenge you to do a survey of any population of men and women asking women if it is okay to slap a man and asking men if it is okay to slap a woman, and then ask if they have ever been slapped. I guarantee you that it will show that women are more likely to be violent. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From sentience at pobox.com Tue Jan 25 11:38:12 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:38:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moving to Santa Clara, CA - may be out of touch Message-ID: <41F62FA4.6000007@pobox.com> I'm moving to Santa Clara, California (Silicon Valley, near Palo Alto and San Jose). I may be out of touch, or send only occasional emails, for the next few days. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From natasha at natasha.cc Tue Jan 25 13:17:43 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:17:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Moving to Santa Clara, CA - may be out of touch In-Reply-To: <41F62FA4.6000007@pobox.com> References: <41F62FA4.6000007@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050125071626.03640018@pop-server.austin.rr.com> >I'm moving to Santa Clara, California (Silicon Valley, near Palo Alto and >San Jose). I may be out of touch, or send only occasional emails, for the >next few days. Congratulations on your new move Eli - please let us know how you are once you settle in. Cheers! Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neptune at superlink.net Tue Jan 25 13:59:14 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 08:59:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The History and the Pseudo-History of Science Message-ID: <007c01c502e6$0e905200$04893cd1@pavilion> http://www.lewrockwell.com/callahan/callahan144.html From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 14:39:38 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:39:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Information Wants to be Liquid Message-ID: <470a3c5205012506393162628e@mail.gmail.com> Wired: Hegland's project, Liquid Information, is kinda like Wikipedia meets hypertext. In Hegland's web, all documents are editable, and every word is a potential hyperlink. Hegland is based at University College London's Interaction Centre and collaborates with Doug Engelbart, inventor of the mouse. Engelbart refers to Hegland's project as "the next stage of the web." "I love the web, but it's a shitty toy," declared Hegland. "(It's) a first movie of a train coming into a station." Hegland's idea is simple -- he plans to move beyond the basic hypertext linking of the web, and change every word into a "hyperword." Instead of one or two links in a document, every single word becomes a link. Further, every link can point to more than one place, pulling up all kinds of background context from the web as a whole. Click on a politician's name and find out who donated to his or her campaign. Click on a town name in a news story and find out what else has happened there. http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66382,00.html From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 25 17:19:25 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:19:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Information Wants to be Liquid In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205012506393162628e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050125171925.95406.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > Wired: Hegland's project, Liquid Information, is > kinda like Wikipedia > meets hypertext. Hype alert: Wikipedia is hypertext. > In Hegland's web, all documents are > editable, and > every word is a potential hyperlink. Also true of Wikipedia, and of any wiki. Ignorance of the true nature of what one is improving on tends to give very poor results. Based purely on the above (but buffered by the below problems), I doubt this effort will produce much of use. > Hegland's idea is simple -- he plans to move beyond > the basic > hypertext linking of the web, and change every word > into a > "hyperword." Instead of one or two links in a > document, every single > word becomes a link. Ah, but link to what? Most words in Wikipedia are not linked because they have nowhere useful to link to. (One could possibly argue that, say, "a" could be linked to its dictionary definition, but this is such a trivial use that it may as well be omitted - anyone who really needs an online dictionary for it can have, say, www.dictionary.com up in a separate browser window. By omitting such trivial links, the links that remain gain more utility by flagging that these links have non-trivial meaning.) > Further, every link can point > to more than one > place, pulling up all kinds of background context > from the web as a > whole. User interface issue: how to specify which link of many one wishes to pursue when clicking on a link? It would seem necessary to click on the link, then do something else to specify the type, which is more complicated (in time, physical effort, and mental effort/decision making) than simply clicking on the link. Though they may find a way around that. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 25 19:43:12 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:43:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Information Wants to be Liquid In-Reply-To: <20050125171925.95406.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050125194312.80347.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I believe the concept here is that every word can be clicked to trigger a googlesque search. Interesting, though a lot of it is absolutely useless. --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > > Wired: Hegland's project, Liquid Information, is > > kinda like Wikipedia > > meets hypertext. > > Hype alert: Wikipedia is hypertext. > > > In Hegland's web, all documents are > > editable, and > > every word is a potential hyperlink. > > Also true of Wikipedia, and of any wiki. > > Ignorance of the true nature of what one is improving > on tends to give very poor results. Based purely on > the above (but buffered by the below problems), I > doubt this effort will produce much of use. > > > Hegland's idea is simple -- he plans to move beyond > > the basic > > hypertext linking of the web, and change every word > > into a > > "hyperword." Instead of one or two links in a > > document, every single > > word becomes a link. > > Ah, but link to what? Most words in Wikipedia are not > linked because they have nowhere useful to link to. > (One could possibly argue that, say, "a" could be > linked to its dictionary definition, but this is such > a trivial use that it may as well be omitted - anyone > who really needs an online dictionary for it can have, > say, www.dictionary.com up in a separate browser > window. By omitting such trivial links, the links > that remain gain more utility by flagging that these > links have non-trivial meaning.) > > > Further, every link can point > > to more than one > > place, pulling up all kinds of background context > > from the web as a > > whole. > > User interface issue: how to specify which link of > many one wishes to pursue when clicking on a link? > It would seem necessary to click on the link, then do > something else to specify the type, which is more > complicated (in time, physical effort, and mental > effort/decision making) than simply clicking on the > link. Though they may find a way around that. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 20:16:52 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:16:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Steven Pinker on Harvard president's gender comments; other info Message-ID: Evolutionary psychologist Steven Pinker had some interesting words to add to the debate other the Harvard president's recent comments on gender and science: http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505366 I recommend reading the entire thing, but here's a quote: "First, let's be clear what the hypothesis is?every one of Summers' critics has misunderstood it. The hypothesis is, first, that the statistical distributions of men's and women's quantitative and spatial abilities are not identical?that the average for men may be a bit higher than the average for women, and that the variance for men might be a bit higher than the variance for women (both implying that there would be a slightly higher proportion of men at the high end of the scale). It does not mean that all men are better at quantitative abilities than all women! That's why it would be immoral and illogical to discriminate against individual women even if it were shown that some of the statistidcal differences were innate. "... Incidentally, another sign that we are dealing with a taboo is that when it comes to this issue, ordinarily intelligent scientists suddenly lose their ability to think quantitatively and warp statistical hypotheses into crude dichotomies." Some recent research by Haier and others at UCI adds interesting data to the debate. From their release: http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1261 http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_aset=B-WA-A-W-B-MsSAYVW-UUA-AAUEUVUYZA-AAUZZWAZZA-YDWBBCAUV-B-U&_rdoc=1&_fmt=summary&_udi=B6WNP-4F8BF5H-1&_coverDate=01%2F16%2F2005&_cdi=6968&_orig=search&_st=13&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050264&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=1010281&md5=53c9e09352873e1138427193865946e5 "In general, men have approximately 6.5 times the amount of gray matter related to general intelligence than women, and women have nearly 10 times the amount of white matter related to intelligence than men. Gray matter represents information processing centers in the brain, and white matter represents the networking of ? or connections between ? these processing centers. "This, according to Rex Jung, a UNM neuropsychologist and co-author of the study, may help to explain why men tend to excel in tasks requiring more local processing (like mathematics), while women tend to excel at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions in the brain, such as required for language facility. These two very different neurological pathways and activity centers, however, result in equivalent overall performance on broad measures of cognitive ability, such as those found on intelligence tests." Here's a pretty good article by the New York Times on this (use bugmenot.com for password): http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/24/science/24women.html?oref=login&oref=login The BBC has an article talking about research on the link between differences in ring/index finger length ratio (an indicator of testosterone levels) and driving ability and various spatial skill metrics: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4202199.stm From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 20:24:04 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 12:24:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Inductive logic system learns games by observing humans Message-ID: New Scientist article description: http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6914 "A computer that learns to play a 'scissors, paper, stone' by observing and mimicking human players could lead to machines that automatically learn how to spot an intruder or perform vital maintenance work, say UK researchers. "CogVis, developed by scientists at the University of Leeds in Yorkshire, UK, teaches itself how to play the children's game by searching for patterns in video and audio of human players and then building its own "hypotheses" about the game's rules. "In contrast to older artificial intelligence (AI) programs that mimic human behaviour using hard-coded rules, CogVis takes a more human approach, learning through observation and mimicry, the researchers say." Project link (with videos): http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/vision/cogvis/ http://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/vision/cogvis/games.html "In this piece of work we are attempting to learn descriptions of objects and events in an entirely autonomous way. Our aim is zero human interference in the learning process, and only to use non scene specific prior information. The resulting models (object and protocol) are used to drive a synthetic agent that can interact in the real world." Slashdot article: http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/25/0225218&tid=126&tid=14&tid=10 More info on inductive logic programming: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~shm/ilp.html http://www-ai.ijs.si/SasoDzeroski/ILPBook/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_logic_programming Research article links: http://www.springerlink.com/app/home/contribution.asp?wasp=c28459nqtq1jyn5dlftx&referrer=parent&backto=issue,14,23;journal,639,1867;linkingpublicationresults,1:105633,1 http://scholar.google.com/url?sa=U&q=http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/afro/galataECAI02.pdf http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/muggleton92inductive.html From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Jan 25 21:01:00 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 13:01:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book Message-ID: <20050125210100.81376.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Tom FitzGerald Subject: [wta-talk] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:00:11 -0800 (PST) Size: 4826 URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 00:14:27 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:14:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <20050125210100.81376.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050126001427.394.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Can I write an over-the-top essay on why we have nothing to lose in becoming transhuman and posthuman, because the human body is disgusting and human nature is capricious, catty & disingenuous; we are nothing but hairless apes on the third rock from the Sun? The World Transhumanist Association is moving forward with the project to produce an essay anthology under the title "An Introduction to Transhumanism". As many of you know, I've volunteered to be the editor. On a suggestion from Mike LaTorra, who is working on an essay on Transhumanism and Taoism, I've set up a yahoo group for those wishing to contribute essays to this anthology. If you'd like to contribute, please join the group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/introtranshumanism/ We're also looking for volunteers from transhumanists who don't subscribe to WTA-Talk. It would be much appreciated if those of you who are members of other transhumanist communities could spread the word that we're looking for contributions to this anthology. (Please feel free to forward this e-mail to anyone you think might be interested in contributing--just don't spam anybody, please!.) If you belong to any of the following groups, for instance, or know people who do, you might want to spread the word to them: The IEET Fellows The contributors and editors of JET The Contributors to the recent ImmInst Book Speakers at the last two Tranvisions The Board and Honorary Vice-Chairs of the WTA Again, thanks for all your efforts on behalf of what I'm sure will be a great book. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me directly offlist at pdxwta at yahoo.com Thanks, Tom FitzGerald __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 00:20:17 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:20:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050125070734.29685.qmail@web30705.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050126002017.51180.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Right again, but how many women go into parks and grab mens' wallets? How many women rape men? How many serial killers are women? How many women commit atrocities in war? Then again, I do find it disturbing that a man who is accused of rape by a believable woman is considered guilty until proven innocent (i.e Tawana Brawley). Mike Lorrey wrote: I am sorry, but every survey of domestic violence shows that this is just NOT TRUE. Far more men than women have been assulted by their partners. It is only because men tend to be physically more powerful (due to work or a greater emphasis on sports, etc) that women exhibit greater damage. I challenge you to do a survey of any population of men and women asking women if it is okay to slap a man and asking men if it is okay to slap a woman, and then ask if they have ever been slapped. I guarantee you that it will show that women are more likely to be violent. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Wed Jan 26 00:43:45 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:43:45 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hondas in Space, Technology Review Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050125184248.02551f18@pop-server.austin.rr.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jan 26 00:54:53 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:54:53 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration Message-ID: <41F6EA5D.33FE47D4@mindspring.com> Terry forwards: > > Come on, this isn't hard. Hard vacuum, small escape velocity, teleoperation, > bootstrapping of autonomous industry, launch costs approach zero. > Exponentially self-amplifying industry in near Earth space. Clean energy, > free food, free habitats, computation effectively approaching infinity (I'd > call a cubic mile of personally owned buckytronics effectively infinite, > some people here would disagree). Jerry belatedly replies: This all sounds very nice, but hellishly expensive. The capital outlay of establishing and maintaining regular contact with an industrial base on the moon would be huge. Given that a body as wealthy as the US government cheese-pares on a project as simple (and comparatively cheap - comparatively as in "still hellishly expensive") as the space shuttle, what are the chances of private enterprise coming up with that kind of ginormous capital outlay with no expectation of any kind of return for years/decades to come? I don't disagree that these things might work, merely that profit-making bodies could afford the years of expenditure (and risk) to get things to the stage where they DO work. (They are, after all, beholden to shareholders in a way that government aerospace and defence organisations are not.) And I would be happy to be proved wrong. But private space flight - as someone on the list pointed out - hasn't reached the Alan Shepherd level of achievement yet, so I may have a long time to wait. (Of course, if those nice aliens in Area 51 would lend us some of their advanced space technology.....) Dr Jerry Goodenough University of East Anglia England -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 01:04:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:04:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050126002017.51180.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050126010430.14409.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > Right again, but how many women go into parks and grab mens' wallets? > How many women rape men? How many serial killers are women? How many > women commit atrocities in war? How many women HAVE to do any of these things to make their way in the world? A smile and a wink will get them all they want. As for atrocities, women have to lower themselves to taking combat positions before they can commit atrocities.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 26 01:12:27 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:12:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission Message-ID: <00cc01c50344$1a3a1240$3b893cd1@pavilion> I just posted this to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ and thought some of you might want to comment on it. Dan From: "Technotranscendence" neptune at superlink.net To: howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:05 PM Subject: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission/was Re: [How to build a Space Habitat] Astronomers Shocked by White House Plan not t On Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:40 PM bestonnet_00 bestonnet_00 at yahoo.com wrote: >>> also don't know why I haven't heard talk of using a >>> Soyuz if it must be a manned repair mission...) >> >> i think a soyuz would be something that NASA would >> never consider. the Russians are already charging >> them to get to the ISS, and this IS an american baby, >> not Russian. in terms of sheer "we need a manned >> spacecraft that can do it", however, a soyuz fits the >> bill. > > Another problem I see with using Soyuz for this is > getting the payload up to the telescope. True. It depends on what the payload is, but the Soyuz can carry some cargo, you can use more than one for the mission, and Progress cargo ships could be used as well. Imagine this kind of mission: one Soyuz with a crew of three and a Progress with whatever's needed. The Progress might be sent up first so that they can be sure it gets there before sending any people up. The Soyuz can then meet it and one (or two) people can work outside while two (or one) stay on board the Soyuz for backup, rescue, and monitoring. (Of course, they might work in shifts, depending on the amount of work.) A few problems with this mission profile: 1. What kind of EVA suits can be used? Will STS ones fit in the Soyuz? 2. Can the Progress carry what's needed and can the crew in EVA suits get at cargo in one? (On the ISS, they transfer cargo in shirtsleeves.) 3. Can the Progress be stored on orbit near the Hubble without any problems, such as a collision or it drifting off before the Soyuz arrives? 4. What would the total cost of the mission be? I guess with the Soyuz at around $40 million, the Progress would be a little less, but what about the costs of the other equipment, training, etc.? Cheers! Dan See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 26 02:23:03 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:23:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? References: <20050126002017.51180.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009201c5034d$f70767f0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Ned Late > Right again, but how many women go into parks and grab mens' wallets? Often, women can not just easily - but legally - get their hands on mens' wallets without having to resort to lurking in parks and grabbing much of anything. > How many women rape men? Men - who often start out as completely dependent, precious little boys - are more often than not reared by women. So who's to blame? (This subject is much more complicated than just "How many women rape men?") Women often have a somewhat negative or inconsistent attitude towards sex - I happen to think that there's a lot of "sex" in rape, not just violence, and while rape is not a healthy way to behave - neither is being oh-so-prudish, selling oneself to the highest bidder, making men feel ashamed for being sexual (and enjoying pornography and the like) ... these latter are behaviors more often exhibited by women. > How many serial killers are women? With very few exceptions, studies have shown that men who become serial killers often have very terrible childhoods (early years). This is a sad state of affairs, and it is sad for both the men who commit the crimes (and their families) and the victims of those crimes (and their families). Without a doubt, men need more nurturing and loving during their early formative years. > How many women commit atrocities in war? Women - throughout history - have often supported men at war (esp., read history of Civil War). And many women support war today. So what are we talking about here? War *is* already an atrocity, so even more atrocities is somewhat redundant. We've we've recently observed that women can follow orders and mete out torture quite well, given half a chance. Just to be fair, why haven't you asked the flip-side questions like: How many young men have been maimed or have lost their lives in wars their societies deemed they needed to fight? (for the sake of their society's women and children and apple pie). How many men kill or hurt their babies because of post-partum depression? How many women occupy hazardous professions, compared to men? Why is it "women and children first?" (I may be sold on the "children" part, but why do women seem to count for more than men in situations where by default men are asked to sacrifice their lives for women?) In a somewhat related observation, have you wondered why news often comes across with stuff like: "There were 1000 deaths, including 200 women and children." How many movies show men being slapped (for the slighest provocation, or no provocation at all) by women compared to women being slapped by men? Is this not violence? - and what does this say to young boys about the worth of men in our society? How many women seduce men with ulterior motives (they want impregnation; they want money and protection; they want to bask in the success of rich and powerful men)? How many women are expected and encouraged to spend several months' salaries (portent of things to come) on engagement rings for their soon-to-be-betrotheds? How many women are misandrous? Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 02:24:33 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:24:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050126010430.14409.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050126022433.25891.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Correct again; yet all the same: why would women WANT to? > How many women HAVE to do any of these things to > make their way in the world? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 26 02:50:02 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:50:02 -0500 Subject: Murderers among the sexes/was Re: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? References: <20050126002017.51180.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <009201c5034d$f70767f0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <002e01c50351$bc35bd80$d4893cd1@pavilion> Regarding the "murderer" rate among the sexes, several years ago I read a study of muders based on all the murders that had taken place in a typical American county over the course of several decades. Two interesting results: men were about twice as likely to be murderers than women, but men were also twice as likely to be murdered. In fact, even among women killers, their victims were more likely to be men than women. Of course, this is based on my recollection and the limits of the particular study. I'm not sure how well that holds in general, especially outside America or outside the time period under consideration. Cheers! Dan See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 26 02:52:38 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:52:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Murderers among the sexes Message-ID: <003b01c50352$196b6f40$d4893cd1@pavilion> The book was _Murder: An Analysis of Its Forms, Conditions and Causes_ by Gerhard Falk and the county in question was Erie County, NY, USA. (BTW, this exhausts my knowledge of the subject.) Dan From: "Technotranscendence" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:50 PM Subject: Murderers among the sexes/was Re: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? > Regarding the "murderer" rate among the sexes, several years ago I read > a study of muders based on all the murders that had taken place in a > typical American county over the course of several decades. Two > interesting results: men were about twice as likely to be murderers than > women, but men were also twice as likely to be murdered. In fact, even > among women killers, their victims were more likely to be men than > women. > > Of course, this is based on my recollection and the limits of the > particular study. I'm not sure how well that holds in general, > especially outside America or outside the time period under > consideration. > > Cheers! > > Dan > See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From rhanson at gmu.edu Wed Jan 26 03:08:10 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:08:10 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The History and the Pseudo-History of Science In-Reply-To: <007c01c502e6$0e905200$04893cd1@pavilion> References: <007c01c502e6$0e905200$04893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050125220552.02de2cc8@mail.gmu.edu> At 08:59 AM 1/25/2005, Technotranscendence wrote: >http://www.lewrockwell.com/callahan/callahan144.html which says: >Many science textbooks contain similar one-or-two-paragraph histories of >how modern science miraculously emerged from the dark swamp of ignorance >we call the Middle Ages. The main problem with such stories is that they >are almost entirely false. Yup. The main thing I learned from studying history of science is that the histories told by non-historians are almost all fairy tales. Until you actually go study in some detail what people actually said and did, don't assume you know much about what happened. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 03:34:37 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:34:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <009201c5034d$f70767f0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050126033437.80520.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This answer is so comprehensive, it is intimidating (which is one difficulty with women-- they often intimidate men ;-) Come to think of it, the women in my family frequently say "a woman should not be judged by her looks", but then they drool over a photo of Ashton Kutcher. I mean, Kutcher isn't a success due to his engineering abilities, is he? Olga Bourlin wrote: Men - who often start out as completely dependent, precious little boys - are more often than not reared by women. So who's to blame? (This subject is much more complicated than just "How many women rape men?") Women often have a somewhat negative or inconsistent attitude towards sex - I happen to think that there's a lot of "sex" in rape, not just violence, and while rape is not a healthy way to behave - neither is being oh-so-prudish, selling oneself to the highest bidder, making men feel ashamed for being sexual (and enjoying pornography and the like) ... these latter are behaviors more often exhibited by women. > How many serial killers are women? With very few exceptions, studies have shown that men who become serial killers often have very terrible childhoods (early years). This is a sad state of affairs, and it is sad for both the men who commit the crimes (and their families) and the victims of those crimes (and their families). Without a doubt, men need more nurturing and loving during their early formative years. > How many women commit atrocities in war? Women - throughout history - have often supported men at war (esp., read history of Civil War). And many women support war today. So what are we talking about here? War *is* already an atrocity, so even more atrocities is somewhat redundant. We've we've recently observed that women can follow orders and mete out torture quite well, given half a chance. Just to be fair, why haven't you asked the flip-side questions like: How many young men have been maimed or have lost their lives in wars their societies deemed they needed to fight? (for the sake of their society's women and children and apple pie). How many men kill or hurt their babies because of post-partum depression? How many women occupy hazardous professions, compared to men? Why is it "women and children first?" (I may be sold on the "children" part, but why do women seem to count for more than men in situations where by default men are asked to sacrifice their lives for women?) In a somewhat related observation, have you wondered why news often comes across with stuff like: "There were 1000 deaths, including 200 women and children." How many movies show men being slapped (for the slighest provocation, or no provocation at all) by women compared to women being slapped by men? Is this not violence? - and what does this say to young boys about the worth of men in our society? How many women seduce men with ulterior motives (they want impregnation; they want money and protection; they want to bask in the success of rich and powerful men)? How many women are expected and encouraged to spend several months' salaries (portent of things to come) on engagement rings for their soon-to-be-betrotheds? How many women are misandrous? Olga _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 26 03:35:55 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 19:35:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? References: <20050126022433.25891.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c50358$24eaf330$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" >> How many women HAVE to do any of these things to >> make their way in the world? > Correct again; yet all the same: why would women WANT > to? Er ... integrity? Olga From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 03:55:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 21:55:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050125214933.01c18ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> I shamelessly present the following `Small Press Roundup' review from ASIMOV'S SF magazine, March 2005, just out. Anyone who wishes to consider buying either a trade paperback or an e-readable download of my novel (and Rory's) can find a link at http://www.ereads.com/book.asp?bookid=642 The paper book is nice, with a cover by our >H pal Anders Sandberg. Damien Broderick ============= Paul Di Filippo's column `On Books': In The Hunger of Time (E-Reads, trade paper, $17.95, 252 pages, ISBN 0-7592-5512-1) Damien Broderick and Rory Barnes have unleashed one of the most satisfying cosmic romps in a long time. As if Rudy Rucker had collaborated with Olaf Stapledon, or H. G. Wells with Neal Stephenson, these authors have managed to combine vigorous and mind-croggling cosmological speculations with entertainingly off-the-wall dialogue and characterization. Stylistically slick, relentlessly zooming forward so fast it catches up with its own tail, this book will leave you gob-smacked. Our story opens in the near-future. A global plague is about to destroy civilization. But luckily our protagonists--husband and wife Hugh and Grace D'Anzso, their daughters Natalie and Suzanna, and the family dog, Ferdy--have an escape hatch. Genius Hugh has perfected an interdimensional vacuole which exists outside of time and space. Sequestered inside, the family can leap forward in time--with one catch: every jump is exponentially larger than the prior one. Luckily, the jumps start small. The family ventures forward one year, then fourteen, then a few hundred, seeking the perfect place to stop. Well, they don't quit travelling till the years mount up into the trillions, and there's a hell of a lot of weirdness to encounter along the way. Narrated by Natalie, this tale possesses the pulp vigor of a 1930s Jack Williamson story with the sophistication to be found in Broderick's non-fiction opus, The Spike (2002). And in one of their cleverest nods to past SF, these authors have rehabilitated one of Heinlein's most controversial novels, Farnham's Freehold (1964), right down to the incestuous subtext. Do you recall Papa Farnham's first name? Hubert, it was.... From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 04:01:01 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:01:01 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist, part II Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050125215619.01bc9358@pop-server.satx.rr.com> I also shamelessly present the following, again from ASIMOV'S SF magazine, March 2005, just out. Anyone who wishes to consider buying a trade paperback of my detailed discussion of sf, what it is and how it works, can find a link at http://www.wildsidepress.com/cgi-bin/miva?Merchant2/merchant.mv+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WP1&Product_Code=080950927X&Category_Code= The paper book is nice, with an incredible cover by our >H pal Anders Sandberg. Damien Broderick ============= again from Paul Di Filippo's column `On Books': Also on the critical front, we find Damien Broderick's x, y, z, t: Dimensions of Science Fiction (Borgo/Wildside, trade paper, $17.95, 264 pages, ISBN 0-8095-0927-X), a collection of essays that had former lives in various publications, now retrofitted into a brilliantly coherent whole. Much like Damon Knight's In Search of Wonder (1956), this volume uses whatever newish books come to hand, salted with copious thoughts on the classics of the genre, as the jumping-off point for scintillating theoretical discussions of SF's uses, failings, directions and destinations. An extremely talented fiction writer as well as critic, Broderick brings an intimate understanding of how SF is composed, marketed and perceived to the table. Like Knight, he can be fascinating whether discussing flawed one-shot wonders (David Palmer's Emergence [1984]) or masterpieces from Bester, Pohl, Asimov and others. And his prose is zesty and inviting, full of witty metaphors. Nothing academic or stodgy here. Is science fiction really "the crazed biker of literature, sloppy-grinned, barreling back down the wrong side of the road into the shrieking traffic"? Read Broderick, and find out! From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 26 04:29:58 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 20:29:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? References: <20050126033437.80520.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001601c5035f$b236f610$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Ned Late > Come to think of it, the women in my family frequently say "a woman should not be judged by her looks", but then they drool over a photo of Ashton Kutcher. I mean, Kutcher isn't a success due to his engineering abilities, is he? I would be more impressed if you had said the women in your family drooled over the cute janitor or the handsome gardener or the beauteous carpenter. Looks certainly count (you'll never catch me saying they don't), but when it comes to men - money and success and celebrity have a way of compensating for being rather plain or downright ugly or even sickly. If Kutcher has some bucks and celebrity - AND looks ... well, I'm totally not surprised. It just seems, however - in a broad sense, of course - that even these days men are more willing to buy, and women are more willing to sell (themselves). Guns and butter and all that, but NOT good economics in MY book. But, then, who am I? I don't even know who Ashton Kutcher is. Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jan 26 06:09:32 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:09:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050125214933.01c18ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200501260610.j0Q69gC29833@tick.javien.com> Congratulations Damien! That exponential time leap thing is wickedly clever. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 7:55 PM > To: 'ExI chat list' > Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I > > I shamelessly present the following `Small Press Roundup' review from > ASIMOV'S SF magazine, March 2005, just out... > > Damien Broderick > ============= > > Paul Di Filippo's column `On Books': > > In The Hunger of Time (E-Reads, trade paper, $17.95, 252 pages, ISBN > 0-7592-5512-1) Damien Broderick and Rory Barnes have unleashed one of the > ... > family can leap forward in time--with one catch: every jump is > exponentially larger than the prior one... From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 26 06:43:43 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 22:43:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050126010430.14409.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050126010430.14409.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9F5525F4-6F65-11D9-A986-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> On Jan 25, 2005, at 5:04 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Ned Late wrote: > >> Right again, but how many women go into parks and grab mens' wallets? >> How many women rape men? How many serial killers are women? How many >> women commit atrocities in war? > > How many women HAVE to do any of these things to make their way in the > world? A smile and a wink will get them all they want. Have we deteriorated to this level of pap again? Does the future not need us after all? Do we really have time to waste on such an exchange? Wait a sec though. Is the above implying that men have to rape women, grab wallets or become a serial killers (!) in order to "make their way in the world"?! I can tell you for damn sure that a smile and a wink does not get many women what they want no matter how desirable they may be to how many suitors. I have yet to meet a woman who only wanted that much or was completely happy when she got it. Or do you mean "all" as not ALL but as referring again to the things above? Want to try again or just move along to another subject? - samantha From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 07:01:08 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 01:01:08 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <200501260610.j0Q69gC29833@tick.javien.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050125214933.01c18ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <200501260610.j0Q69gC29833@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:09 PM 1/25/2005 -0800, Spike wrote: > That exponential time leap thing >is wickedly clever. I stole it from Poul Anderson. Damien Broderick From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 26 10:19:25 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:19:25 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <41F6EA5D.33FE47D4@mindspring.com> References: <41F6EA5D.33FE47D4@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050126101925.GB1404@leitl.org> On Tue, Jan 25, 2005 at 05:54:53PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > Terry forwards: > > > > Come on, this isn't hard. Hard vacuum, small escape velocity, teleoperation, > > bootstrapping of autonomous industry, launch costs approach zero. > > Exponentially self-amplifying industry in near Earth space. Clean energy, > > free food, free habitats, computation effectively approaching infinity (I'd > > call a cubic mile of personally owned buckytronics effectively infinite, > > some people here would disagree). > > Jerry belatedly replies: > > This all sounds very nice, but hellishly expensive. The capital outlay It depends. On the schedule, and who's doing it. Getting self-replication in a small enough package (ultimatively, using molecular nanotechnology) to Luna surface will eventually become cheap enough for small groups, and individuals. If we're willing to wait. That can be pushed, considered the ROI, both economically, and in terms of military power. Lunar teleoperation right now is several years to a couple decades off for a superpower, assuming lavish funding -- using today's technology for projection. Rapid prototyping cycles are especially profitable, given that they're making technology (signalling, robotics) advances more rapidly felt. This asks for a small-scale, focused effort. Something done by a single person (who brings the money, and the focus), not a large national aerospace venture. Again, the issues is buying cheapest LEO transport, sufficiently safe landing on Luna is not all that difficult for a small, sturdy payload. > of establishing and maintaining regular contact with an industrial base > on the moon would be huge. Given that a body as wealthy as the US You'll need a high-bandwidth link to Luna, and control stations rotating with the night zones. I would use line of sight laser with adaptive optics for the high-bandwidth connection, and conventional RF for low-bandwidth fallback. Initially, a number of orbital relays would be nice. > government cheese-pares on a project as simple (and comparatively cheap > - comparatively as in "still hellishly expensive") as the space shuttle, Completely different design space. We're talking about <<1000 kg payload to Luna, one-way, transfer time a year no problem. Modular systems, economomies of scale, high rate of loss not a problem. > what are the chances of private enterprise coming up with that kind of > ginormous capital outlay with no expectation of any kind of return for > years/decades to come? I haven't done the math but an individual mission to LLO (no landing, some 100 kg payload) is low two megabuck figure (SMART-1 was 126 M$, Clementine was $80 -- a focused private effort would be a fraction of that). How many missions do we need, with current technology? Can you cover part of the costs by selling telerobotics time (moon buggy races, wheeled centaur telepresence, whatever)? I think you could. > I don't disagree that these things might work, merely that profit-making > bodies could afford the years of expenditure (and risk) to get things to Which risk? Certainly no human risk. It's just money, spent by driven people. > the stage where they DO work. (They are, after all, beholden to > shareholders in a way that government aerospace and defence > organisations are not.) And I would be happy to be proved wrong. But I'm not talking commercial short-term interest, driven by a large number of people. > private space flight - as someone on the list pointed out - hasn't > reached the Alan Shepherd level of achievement yet, so I may have a long > time to wait. Not so long time, and, again, the idea is not to shoot canned monkeys to the moon. It's something that will easily make the effort two orders of magnitude more expensive, and thus out of reach for rich invididuals. > (Of course, if those nice aliens in Area 51 would lend us some of their > advanced space technology.....) Chemical and plasma thrusters are not exactly Area 51 technology. Neither is telecommunication, and microbotics. Making it small and hardened is not something you can buy off-shelf, but then, if it was, we'd be on Luna already. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 26 13:12:18 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:12:18 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] The History and the Pseudo-History of Science In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050125220552.02de2cc8@mail.gmu.edu> References: <007c01c502e6$0e905200$04893cd1@pavilion> <6.2.0.14.2.20050125220552.02de2cc8@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: Does anyone have an opinion on "The Scientists" by John Gribbin? I found it an interesting overview and trace of the development of science as we know it today. Certainly not an in-depth study of anyone or thing in particular. But I am not a scientist... Regards, MB On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Robin Hanson wrote: > Yup. The main thing I learned from studying history of science is that the > histories told by non-historians are almost all fairy tales. Until you > actually go study in some detail what people actually said and did, don't > assume you know much about what happened. > > From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 26 13:22:19 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:22:19 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <001601c5035f$b236f610$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050126033437.80520.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001601c5035f$b236f610$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: Ha!!! Neither do I! :))) Thanks, Olga. :) Regards, MB On Tue, 25 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > But, then, who am I? I don't even know who Ashton Kutcher is. > From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 16:09:13 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 10:09:13 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ashton Kutcher In-Reply-To: References: <20050126033437.80520.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <001601c5035f$b236f610$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126100739.019c09c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:22 AM 1/26/2005 -0500, MB wrote: > > I don't even know who Ashton Kutcher is >Ha!!! Neither do I! :))) Well, if you must know, In 1997 he was a Biochemical Engineering Student at the University of Iowa and worked for General Mills sweeping Cheerios dust from the floor in his home town of Cedar Rapids, Iowa for $12 an hour. He also has a fraternal twin brother, Michael, and a sister, Tausha. Damien Broderick [always helpful] From bret at bonfireproductions.com Wed Jan 26 18:34:54 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:34:54 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Moon is a Harsh Movie In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050124135910.019dac70@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050124135910.019dac70@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: What a fantastic opportunity to get some very important memes out into meatspace! I have my fingers crossed most strongly. IMDB has nothing yet. Unlike John Carter of Mars. =) Anyone know him (Tim) ? Bret Kulakovich On Jan 24, 2005, at 3:03 PM, Damien Broderick wrote: > Some fairly silly soundbites: > > http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue405/news.html > > ====== > Minear's Moon Still Rises > > Tim Minear, who is adapting Robert A. Heinlein's classic SF novel The > Moon Is a Harsh Mistress for the screen, told SCI FI Wire that he just > completed the latest draft of the screenplay. "I just actually turned > in my next pass at it this morning [Jan. 17] to [producers] David > Heyman and Mike Medavoy," Minear said in an interview while promoting > his new Fox series The Inside. "The next step is they read it and > maybe give me more notes or take it to a director or whatever." > It's been a pet project for Minear to adapt Heinlein's difficult > Hugo-Award-winning 1966 book, about the rebellion of a former lunar > penal colony against the Lunar Authority that controls it from Earth. > "[It's] very difficult to adapt," Minear said. "It's interesting. I > kept a lot more from the book than people may have expected. The light > {presumably a transcription blooper for `line'} marriages are still > there. The free trade with Earth is still there. The catapult is still > there. And, you know, it's not a silly arm on a fulcrum or something. > The idea is this sort of Ferris wheel thing that takes it up over the > gravity well and drops to Earth. {Whaaa--? Oh my dog.} The thing that > I changed from the book is that Mike, the computer, manifests himself > visually, so he's not just a voice. {He's not just a voice in the > book} But what I've done is I've given the citizens of Luna ocular > 'ident stamps,' which are the equivalent of prisoner tattoos, and Mike > finds a way into the personalized signature of people, so he can show > himself to you, but no one else can see him. So that's maybe the thing > I added." > > ========= > > Damien Broderick > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From bret at bonfireproductions.com Wed Jan 26 18:51:50 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:51:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <00cc01c50344$1a3a1240$3b893cd1@pavilion> References: <00cc01c50344$1a3a1240$3b893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <56B5068C-6FCB-11D9-918A-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Greetings, Not too sure on the launch profile/ops of the Soyuz - is it meant to be de- and re-pressurized on orbit? It lacks an airlock. If there is a problem, we have three *nauts without a way home. Additionally, a Soyuz may not be "clean" enough to get near Hubble - what does it oxidize/use for reaction control and maneuvering? Whatever drops off near Hubble, stays with Hubble. I don't know if there is a lot of prejudice on the idea of what vehicle to use (Soyuz or not) - if there is a predisposition I would say it was due to the success of the previous Hubble mission. I'm sure someone, somewhere, is also waving the Progress/MIR data around looking dismayed as well. I also seem to remember something about Columbia being built to a spec that had Hubble specifically in mind. More than just a robot arm. Might have been more to do with the original plan of bringing Hubble back. Personally, with the moneys on the way for Crew Exploration Vehicle and Terrestrial Planet Finder (running out of fingers to cross) I don't mind the expense - we have a pile of instruments already built that would have been installed by now, that are just sitting Earthside. Bret Kulakovich On Jan 25, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Technotranscendence wrote: > I just posted this to > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ and thought some > of you might want to comment on it. > > Dan > > From: "Technotranscendence" neptune at superlink.net > To: howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:05 PM > Subject: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission/was Re: [How to build a Space > Habitat] Astronomers Shocked by White House Plan not t > > On Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:40 PM bestonnet_00 > bestonnet_00 at yahoo.com > wrote: >>>> also don't know why I haven't heard talk of using a >>>> Soyuz if it must be a manned repair mission...) >>> >>> i think a soyuz would be something that NASA would >>> never consider. the Russians are already charging >>> them to get to the ISS, and this IS an american baby, >>> not Russian. in terms of sheer "we need a manned >>> spacecraft that can do it", however, a soyuz fits the >>> bill. >> >> Another problem I see with using Soyuz for this is >> getting the payload up to the telescope. > > True. It depends on what the payload is, but the Soyuz can carry some > cargo, you can use more than one for the mission, and Progress cargo > ships could be used as well. Imagine this kind of mission: one Soyuz > with a crew of three and a Progress with whatever's needed. The > Progress might be sent up first so that they can be sure it gets there > before sending any people up. The Soyuz can then meet it and one (or > two) people can work outside while two (or one) stay on board the Soyuz > for backup, rescue, and monitoring. (Of course, they might work in > shifts, depending on the amount of work.) > > A few problems with this mission profile: > > 1. What kind of EVA suits can be used? Will STS ones fit in the > Soyuz? > > 2. Can the Progress carry what's needed and can the crew in EVA suits > get at cargo in one? (On the ISS, they transfer cargo in > shirtsleeves.) > > 3. Can the Progress be stored on orbit near the Hubble without any > problems, such as a collision or it drifting off before the Soyuz > arrives? > > 4. What would the total cost of the mission be? I guess with the > Soyuz > at around $40 million, the Progress would be a little less, but what > about the costs of the other equipment, training, etc.? > > Cheers! > > Dan > See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From scerir at libero.it Wed Jan 26 19:08:16 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:08:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The History and the Pseudo-History of Science References: <007c01c502e6$0e905200$04893cd1@pavilion><6.2.0.14.2.20050125220552.02de2cc8@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <006701c503da$653197f0$d0c51b97@administxl09yj> From: "MB" > Does anyone have an opinion on > "The Scientists" by John Gribbin? No. But John Gribbin invented the 'quantum suicide' - at least according to Milan Cirkovic - before Squires (1986), Moravec (1988), Zeh (1992), Price (1996), Tegmark (1998), etc. Damien, nobody invented the 'quantum resuscitation'? Essentially, it would be a device measuring the projection operator on the state defined as 1/sqrt2 [|alive> + exp(i theta)|dead>] to get the "psi"-function and then, measuring the "psi"-function, in 50% of cases ... - M. Cirkovic, http://www.arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0412147 - John Gribbin, "Doomsday Device", published in 'Analog', January 22, 1985. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 19:46:29 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:46:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Actually, I'd like to see a story that did the reverse: allowed a person to travel forward in time, but only within their future real natural life span, such that they can jump to halfway to their natural death, then half again, etc. The story would follow this several jumps, with views of society that demonstrate the power of exponential change in technology, until the jumps start getting longer, which is explained by the fact that events that occur in the time stream between jumps (i.e. invention of longevity technologies) lengthen ones natural life span.... --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:09 PM 1/25/2005 -0800, Spike wrote: > > > That exponential time leap thing > >is wickedly clever. > > I stole it from Poul Anderson. > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 19:50:52 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 11:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <56B5068C-6FCB-11D9-918A-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <20050126195052.78615.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My recommendation is instead is for the USAF to orbit the Orbital Transfer Vehicle they developed several years ago at Phillips Lab and never launched, hook that up to Hubble, and use it to move Hubble to the ISS for servicing. It could then be used to put Hubble into a much higher orbit as well and enable it to return to ISS in the future for servicing, refuelling, etc. The Phillips OTV uses passive solar thermal power to run a plasma engine. --- Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > Greetings, > > Not too sure on the launch profile/ops of the Soyuz - is it meant to > be > de- and re-pressurized on orbit? It lacks an airlock. If there is a > problem, we have three *nauts without a way home. > > Additionally, a Soyuz may not be "clean" enough to get near Hubble - > what does it oxidize/use for reaction control and maneuvering? > Whatever drops off near Hubble, stays with Hubble. > > I don't know if there is a lot of prejudice on the idea of what > vehicle > to use (Soyuz or not) - if there is a predisposition I would say it > was > due to the success of the previous Hubble mission. I'm sure someone, > somewhere, is also waving the Progress/MIR data around looking > dismayed > as well. I also seem to remember something about Columbia being built > > to a spec that had Hubble specifically in mind. More than just a > robot > arm. Might have been more to do with the original plan of bringing > Hubble back. > > Personally, with the moneys on the way for Crew Exploration Vehicle > and > Terrestrial Planet Finder (running out of fingers to cross) I don't > mind the expense - we have a pile of instruments already built that > would have been installed by now, that are just sitting Earthside. > > > Bret Kulakovich > > On Jan 25, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Technotranscendence wrote: > > > I just posted this to > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ and thought > some > > of you might want to comment on it. > > > > Dan > > > > From: "Technotranscendence" neptune at superlink.net > > To: howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:05 PM > > Subject: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission/was Re: [How to build a Space > > Habitat] Astronomers Shocked by White House Plan not t > > > > On Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:40 PM bestonnet_00 > > bestonnet_00 at yahoo.com > > wrote: > >>>> also don't know why I haven't heard talk of using a > >>>> Soyuz if it must be a manned repair mission...) > >>> > >>> i think a soyuz would be something that NASA would > >>> never consider. the Russians are already charging > >>> them to get to the ISS, and this IS an american baby, > >>> not Russian. in terms of sheer "we need a manned > >>> spacecraft that can do it", however, a soyuz fits the > >>> bill. > >> > >> Another problem I see with using Soyuz for this is > >> getting the payload up to the telescope. > > > > True. It depends on what the payload is, but the Soyuz can carry > some > > cargo, you can use more than one for the mission, and Progress > cargo > > ships could be used as well. Imagine this kind of mission: one > Soyuz > > with a crew of three and a Progress with whatever's needed. The > > Progress might be sent up first so that they can be sure it gets > there > > before sending any people up. The Soyuz can then meet it and one > (or > > two) people can work outside while two (or one) stay on board the > Soyuz > > for backup, rescue, and monitoring. (Of course, they might work in > > shifts, depending on the amount of work.) > > > > A few problems with this mission profile: > > > > 1. What kind of EVA suits can be used? Will STS ones fit in the > > Soyuz? > > > > 2. Can the Progress carry what's needed and can the crew in EVA > suits > > get at cargo in one? (On the ISS, they transfer cargo in > > shirtsleeves.) > > > > 3. Can the Progress be stored on orbit near the Hubble without any > > problems, such as a collision or it drifting off before the Soyuz > > arrives? > > > > 4. What would the total cost of the mission be? I guess with the > > Soyuz > > at around $40 million, the Progress would be a little less, but > what > > about the costs of the other equipment, training, etc.? > > > > Cheers! > > > > Dan > > See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: > > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 20:46:35 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:46:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 11:46 AM 1/26/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >I'd like to see a story that did the reverse: allowed a >person to travel forward in time, but only within their future real >natural life span, such that they can jump to halfway to their natural >death, then half again, etc. The story would follow this several jumps, >with views of society that demonstrate the power of exponential change >in technology Yes, I've been thinking along those lines myself. It's the natural Vingean story-telling metric. Damien Broderick From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 26 21:23:22 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:23:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission References: <20050126195052.78615.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006a01c503ed$4425fd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:50 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com wrote: > My recommendation is instead is for the USAF > to orbit the Orbital Transfer Vehicle they > developed several years ago at Phillips Lab > and never launched, hook that up to Hubble, > and use it to move Hubble to the ISS for > servicing. It could then be used to put Hubble > into a much higher orbit as well and enable it > to return to ISS in the future for servicing, > refuelling, etc. Not a bad idea, but... What orbit is the Hubble on in relation to the ISS? How easy would be to change orbital planes -- assuming they're not on the orbit? How far along was the OTV in development? (My Soyuz-Progress suggestion has the benefit that both vehicles are well tested and routinely used, so there's no much new development needed.) BTW, it'd be nice to see the ISS used for something -- other than just a place to put people to barely maintain the ISS. > The Phillips OTV uses passive solar thermal > power to run a plasma engine. Has it been tested in space? Finally, my actual recommend is that NO repair or replacement mission is funded and that interested parties start looking to other alternatives, especially private space telescopes. This might increase interest in something like the SpaceDev ILO project and shift more focus to private space development. Cheers! Dan See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From megao at sasktel.net Wed Jan 26 21:28:46 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:28:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41F80B8E.4090001@sasktel.net> I remember reading a story like that about 30 years ago. I forget the title and author but the term used in this novel was "timeliner" for the consciousness that jumped forward from body to body until his consciousness was captured in the year10,000 and .... I won't spoil the rest of the story if the book is still out there. Damien Broderick wrote: > At 11:46 AM 1/26/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> I'd like to see a story that did the reverse: allowed a >> person to travel forward in time, but only within their future real >> natural life span, such that they can jump to halfway to their natural >> death, then half again, etc. The story would follow this several jumps, >> with views of society that demonstrate the power of exponential change >> in technology > > From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 26 21:47:22 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:47:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission References: <00cc01c50344$1a3a1240$3b893cd1@pavilion> <56B5068C-6FCB-11D9-918A-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <01c401c503f0$9eb4a380$5b893cd1@pavilion> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 1:51 PM Bret Kulakovich bret at bonfireproductions.com wrote: > Not too sure on the launch profile/ops of > the Soyuz - is it meant to be de- and re- > pressurized on orbit? It lacks an airlock. Unknown to me as well.:) > If there is a problem, we have three *nauts > without a way home. True. I don't know and I don't know the risks. Actually, imagine they can't repressurize. They might still be able to get home -- they'll just have to remain suited. > Additionally, a Soyuz may not be "clean" > enough to get near Hubble - what does it > oxidize/use for reaction control and > maneuvering? Whatever drops off near > Hubble, stays with Hubble. Good question, but I don't think your concern is completely valid. Sunlight and the atmosphere would work wonders on that. I'd be more afraid of tools or large particulate matter than propulsion products. Of course, that doesn't mean short term exposure would be good -- just that it's unlikely that a cloud of the stuff will be following Hubble around for days or weeks afterward. BTW, I believe the Soyuz uses liquid oxygen and kerosene. Since the thing docks with the ISS, maybe it's not all that bad. (Of course, the Hubble might be more sensitive and my guess is, even if not, you wouldn't want anything near it that might mean another repair mission is necessary. On the latter is meant that any corrosive damage caused at the ISS can be easily monitored and repaired.) > I don't know if there is a lot of prejudice on > the idea of what vehicle to use (Soyuz or not) My guess is there is and that Soyuz is not being considered at all by the major players in this area. NASA vendors wouldn't want to lose part or all of that funding to a cheaper RSA mission. People in NASA, too, might see using a foreign spacecraft for a repair mission as a loss of face. So, yes, I believe there'll be cultural resistance. Whether it's strong enough to keep such a proposal off the table is another matter. I posted the plan to two lists in hopes that more people might consider it and, ergo, it might find a place on the table. > - if there is a predisposition I would say it was > due to the success of the previous Hubble > mission. Well, there're three problems with repeating that. One, the Columbia disaster kind of put a damper on the STS program. It's even unknown at this point if and when any Shuttle will fly again. Two, the overall costs of an STS mission are very high: around $500 million. Three, the major repair missions now under consideration seem to be tilted toward using robotic or remote repair. (An STS mission and the robotic/remote repair missions actually are more expensive than the original Hubble. It'd be cheaper to just replace the Hubble with a clone or a mild revision, then any of the current repair missions under consideration by NASA.) > I'm sure someone, somewhere, is also waving > the Progress/MIR data around looking dismayed > as well. If so, where? I have yet to see it.:) > I also seem to remember something about > Columbia being built to a spec that had Hubble > specifically in mind. More than just a robot arm. > Might have been more to do with the original > plan of bringing Hubble back. That may be, but an STS repair mission is unlikely and not cheap. > Personally, with the moneys on the way for > Crew Exploration Vehicle and Terrestrial Planet > Finder (running out of fingers to cross) CEV probably won't fly for a few years. TPF is still just a proposal. > I don't mind the expense - we have a pile of > instruments already built that would have been > installed by now, that are just sitting Earthside. That's typical of many space enthusiasts: no concern with costs. I think such an attitude partly causes so little to get done. Cheers! Dan See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From neptune at superlink.net Wed Jan 26 22:01:47 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:01:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <024401c503f2$a233cd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 3:46 PM Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: >> I'd like to see a story that did the reverse: >> allowed a person to travel forward in time, >> but only within their future real natural life >> span, such that they can jump to halfway >> to their natural death, then half again, etc. >> The story would follow this several jumps, >> with views of society that demonstrate >> the power of exponential change in >> technology > > Yes, I've been thinking along those lines > myself. It's the natural Vingean story-telling > metric. The reminds me of the Alice Sheldon's (AKA James Triptree, Jr.) short story "Backward, Look Backward." Have any of you read it? Cheers! Dan See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From hibbert at mydruthers.com Wed Jan 26 21:56:51 2005 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 13:56:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41F81223.20107@mydruthers.com> >Mike Lorrey wrote: >> I'd like to see a story that did the reverse: allowed a >> person to travel forward in time, but only within their future real >> natural life span, such that they can jump to halfway to their natural >> death, then half again, etc. The story would follow this several jumps, >> with views of society that demonstrate the power of exponential change >> in technology and Damien replied: > Yes, I've been thinking along those lines myself. It's the natural > Vingean story-telling metric. > > Damien Broderick Have you read Marc Stiegler's "Gentle Seduction"? It has the same flavor, while taking a different approach. The story is a series of vignettes in which the protagonist is confronted with a choice, each of which is clearly a small change in style of living (given the context built up in the vignette), but by the end of the story, the character has changed from a relatively normal present day person into a universe-spanning multi-consciousness. At each step, she resists because the choice challenges her self image. But it's clear in retrospect that each change was small and inevitable. Chris -- I think that, for babies, every day is first love in Paris. Every wobbly step is skydiving, every game of hide and seek is Einstein in 1905.--Alison Gopnik (http://edge.org/q2005/q05_9.html#gopnik) Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 22:19:35 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:19:35 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist In-Reply-To: <41F80B8E.4090001@sasktel.net> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41F80B8E.4090001@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126161811.01a84ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:28 PM 1/26/2005 -0600, Morris wrote: >I remember reading a story like that about 30 years ago. I forget the >title and author but the term used in this novel was >"timeliner" for the consciousness that jumped forward from body to body >until his consciousness was captured in the year10,000 Charles Eric Maine's TIMELINER, oddly enough. :) Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 26 22:34:07 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:34:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? Message-ID: <6442414E-6FEA-11D9-A986-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> For your consideration: http://www.bushflash.com/14.html - samantha -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 132 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 26 22:36:08 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 14:36:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat]{CONC] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050126223608.9488.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Actually, I'd like to see a story that did the > reverse: allowed a > person to travel forward in time, but only within > their future real > natural life span, such that they can jump to > halfway to their natural > death, then half again, etc. The story would follow > this several jumps, > with views of society that demonstrate the power of > exponential change > in technology, until the jumps start getting longer, > which is explained > by the fact that events that occur in the time > stream between jumps > (i.e. invention of longevity technologies) lengthen > ones natural life > span.... That was my first thought on reading that, too. Or of the jumps getting shorter and shorter until one winds up just before one left - and one realizes that uploading has begun (said uploading being what the final jump was going to skip, from the jumper's impatience to see what comes afterwards), which counts as "death" for the time machine even if one's identity will still be very much alive afterwards. From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jan 26 22:55:48 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:55:48 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Different but (Probably) Equal Message-ID: <41F81FF4.720D669A@mindspring.com> < http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/opinion/23judson.html > The New York Times January 23, 2005 OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR Different but (Probably) Equal By OLIVIA JUDSON London - HYPOTHESIS: males and females are typically indistinguishable on the basis of their behaviors and intellectual abilities. This is not true for elephants. Females have big vocabularies and hang out in herds; males tend to live in solitary splendor, and insofar as they speak at all, their conversation appears mostly to consist of elephant for "I'm in the mood, I'm in the mood..." The hypothesis is not true for zebra finches. Males sing elaborate songs. Females can't sing at all. A zebra finch opera would have to have males in all the singing roles. And it's not true for green spoon worms. This animal, which lives on the sea floor, has one of the largest known size differences between male and female: the male is 200,000 times smaller. He spends his whole life in her reproductive tract, fertilizing eggs by regurgitating sperm through his mouth. He's so different from his mate that when he was first discovered by science, he was not recognized as being a green spoon worm; instead, he was thought to be a parasite. Is it ridiculous to suppose that the hypothesis might not be true for humans either? No. But it is not fashionable - as Lawrence Summers, president of Harvard University, discovered when he suggested this month that greater intrinsic ability might be one reason that men are overrepresented at the top levels of fields involving math, science and engineering. There are - as the maladroit Mr. Summers should have known - good reasons it's not fashionable. Beliefs that men are intrinsically better at this or that have repeatedly led to discrimination and prejudice, and then they've been proved to be nonsense. Women were thought not to be world-class musicians. But when American symphony orchestras introduced blind auditions in the 1970's - the musician plays behind a screen so that his or her gender is invisible to those listening - the number of women offered jobs in professional orchestras increased. Similarly, in science, studies of the ways that grant applications are evaluated have shown that women are more likely to get financing when those reading the applications do not know the sex of the applicant. In other words, there's still plenty of work to do to level the playing field; there's no reason to suppose there's something inevitable about the status quo. All the same, it seems a shame if we can't even voice the question. Sex differences are fascinating - and entirely unlike the other biological differences that distinguish other groups of living things (like populations and species). Sex differences never arise in isolation, with females evolving on a mountaintop, say, and males evolving in a cave. Instead, most genes - and in some species, all genes - spend equal time in each sex. Many sex differences are not, therefore, the result of his having one gene while she has another. Rather, they are attributable to the way particular genes behave when they find themselves in him instead of her. The magnificent difference between male and female green spoon worms, for example, has nothing to do with their having different genes: each green spoon worm larva could go either way. Which sex it becomes depends on whether it meets a female during its first three weeks of life. If it meets a female, it becomes male and prepares to regurgitate; if it doesn't, it becomes female and settles into a crack on the sea floor. What's more, the fact that most genes occur in both males and females can generate interesting sexual tensions. In male fruit flies, for instance, variants of genes that confer particular success - which on Mother Nature's abacus is the number of descendants you have - tend to be detrimental when they occur in females, and vice versa. Worse: the bigger the advantage in one sex, the more detrimental those genes are in the other. This means that, at least for fruit flies, the same genes that make a male a Don Juan would also turn a female into a wallflower; conversely, the genes that make a female a knockout babe would produce a clumsy fellow with the sex appeal of a cake tin. But why do sex differences appear at all? They appear when the secret of success differs for males and females: the more divergent the paths to success, the more extreme the physiological differences. Peacocks have huge tails and strut about because peahens prefer males with big tails. Bull elephant seals grow to five times the mass of females because big males are better at monopolizing the beaches where the females haul out to have sex and give birth. Meanwhile, the crow-like jackdaw has (as far as we can tell) no obvious sex differences and appears to lead a life of devoted monogamy. Here, what works for him also seems to work for her, though the female is more likely to sit on the eggs. So by studying the differences - and similarities - among men and women, we can potentially learn about the forces that have shaped us in the past. And I think the news is good. We're not like green spoon worms or elephant seals, with males and females so different that aspiring to an egalitarian society would be ludicrous. And though we may not be jackdaws either - men and women tend to look different, though even here there's overlap - it's obvious that where there are intellectual differences, they are so slight they cannot be prejudged. The interesting questions are, is there an average intrinsic difference? And how extensive is the variation? I would love to know if the averages are the same but the underlying variation is different - with members of one sex tending to be either superb or dreadful at particular sorts of thinking while members of the other are pretty good but rarely exceptional. Curiously, such a result could arise even if the forces shaping men and women have been identical. In some animals - humans and fruit flies come to mind - males have an X chromosome and a Y chromosome while females have two X's. In females, then, extreme effects of genes on one X chromosome can be offset by the genes on the other. But in males, there's no hiding your X. In birds and butterflies, though, it's the other way around: females have a Z chromosome and a W chromosome, and males snooze along with two Z's. The science of sex differences, even in fruit flies and toads, is a ferociously complex subject. It's also famously fraught, given its malignant history. In fact, there was a time not so long ago when I would have balked at the whole enterprise: the idea there might be intrinsic cognitive differences between men and women was one I found insulting. But science is a great persuader. The jackdaws and spoon worms have forced me to change my mind. Now I'm keen to know what sets men and women apart - and no longer afraid of what we may find. Olivia Judson, an evolutionary biologist at Imperial College in London, is the author of "Dr. Tatiana's Sex Advice to All Creation: The Definitive Guide to the Evolutionary Biology of Sex." -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 22:59:42 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:59:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <024401c503f2$a233cd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <024401c503f2$a233cd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126165725.01a2bec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >eeminds me of the Alice Sheldon's (AKA James Triptree, Jr.) short >story "Backward, Look Backward." Tiptree. Alas, that one's not at http://www.bestsf.net/s2t.html but two of her most famous stories are. Another accelerating jumper is Charlie Stross's suitably-titled ACCELERANDO, due out soon. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 26 23:04:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 17:04:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <024401c503f2$a233cd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <024401c503f2$a233cd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126170222.019bae40@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > >The reminds me of the Alice Sheldon's (AKA James Triptree, Jr.) short >story "Backward, Look Backward." Oh, and it's "Backward, Turn Backward." In SYNERGY, Vol. 2, and her own CROWN OF STARS. (I don't think I've read it.) Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 23:12:08 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:12:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <006a01c503ed$4425fd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050126231208.80943.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > > > The Phillips OTV uses passive solar thermal > > power to run a plasma engine. > > Has it been tested in space? > > Finally, my actual recommend is that NO repair or replacement mission > is funded and that interested parties start looking to other > alternatives, > especially private space telescopes. This might increase interest in > something like the SpaceDev ILO project and shift more focus to > private space development. It hasn't been in space yet (at least unclassified space), but has been tested in vacuum chambers. The added benefit of this project is that it provides the ISS with an OTV which will also be useful for sending regular cargo missions to the Moon for Bush's lunar program. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 26 23:43:09 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 15:43:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <9F5525F4-6F65-11D9-A986-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050126234309.41909.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> We could move on to your link on American Bush-fascism, but either the link very slow or is not functioning. I don't wait around after 30 seconds. Samantha Atkins wrote: Want to try again or just move along to another subject? - samantha --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 27 00:14:49 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:14:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com><6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com><024401c503f2$a233cd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126165725.01a2bec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <02db01c50405$37ad9ec0$5b893cd1@pavilion> On Wenesday, January 26, 2005 5:59 PM Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: >> eeminds me of the Alice Sheldon's (AKA James >> Triptree, Jr.) short story "Backward, Look >> Backward." > > Tiptree. Thanks! I noticed that after hitting send, but what did you alter "reminds" above?:) > Alas, that one's not at > > http://www.bestsf.net/s2t.html > > but two of her most famous stories are. That's hardly a comprehensive list for any author listed. > Another accelerating jumper is Charlie > Stross's suitably-titled ACCELERANDO, > due out soon. Actually, "Backward, Look Backward" wasn't an accelerating jumper, but people in it were limited to only seeing their future lives. I don't want to say much more because I don't want to spoil it for anyone. Cheers! Dan See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 27 00:22:46 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:22:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com><20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com><6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com><024401c503f2$a233cd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126170222.019bae40@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <02e701c50406$5411e160$5b893cd1@pavilion> On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 6:04 PM Damien Broderick thespike at satx.rr.com wrote: >> The reminds me of the Alice Sheldon's >> (AKA James Triptree, Jr.) short story >> "Backward, Look Backward." > > Oh, and it's "Backward, Turn Backward." Ah, that explains why I couldn't find it online.:) > In SYNERGY, Vol. 2, and her own CROWN > OF STARS. (I don't think I've read it.) I read the former -- or most of it -- a number of years ago. If my memory's not completely shot -- and I don't want to look it up online now (I'm on a different workstation) -- that volume also had a story on surfing by Rucker. Cheers! Dan See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html From dgc at cox.net Thu Jan 27 01:00:38 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 20:00:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Support your local transhumanist artist I In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050126010023.01bc7fd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050126194629.91856.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126144507.019aa9b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41F83D36.3000008@cox.net> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 11:46 AM 1/26/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >> I'd like to see a story that did the reverse: allowed a >> person to travel forward in time, but only within their future real >> natural life span, such that they can jump to halfway to their natural >> death, then half again, etc. The story would follow this several jumps, >> with views of society that demonstrate the power of exponential change >> in technology > > > Yes, I've been thinking along those lines myself. It's the natural > Vingean story-telling metric. > The problem with this is how do you construct a plausible universe with this constraint? The concept of "natural death" seems to be very artificial, unless you are using predestination. If exponential knowledge acceleration is real, then at some point in the (debatably near) future, actuarial life expectancy will begin to increase more rapidly than one year per year. At that point "natural" life expectancy goes to infinity. From gregburch at gregburch.net Thu Jan 27 01:27:10 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:27:10 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <6442414E-6FEA-11D9-A986-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Message-ID: Since you see fit to make such a strong expression of your political views here, let me ask you just one question, with no intent to start a flame war: Do you personally know any people that DON'T think the current U.S. administration is fascist? Do you have any friends or even acquaintances who voted for Bush in the last election? I'm just curious. GB -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:34 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? For your consideration: http://www.bushflash.com/14.html - samantha -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 03:19:25 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:19:25 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: References: <6442414E-6FEA-11D9-A986-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f05012619192443c66a@mail.gmail.com> For what it's worth (seeing as I'm not the original target of the query): I do not find the fascist moniker much of an exaggeration (if at all), am utterly disgusted by the administration, and have multiple friends who voted for Bush in both elections. A number of whom have openly stated they believe Bush is moving America towards Christian theocracy, and that this is the Right Direction for both the country and the world. I'm curious - on what construal of "fascist" is the Bush administration *not*? For all the scoffing at the term, I've yet to come across a genuine explication of what fascism is alongside how Bush isn't it. Certainly, I've seen plenty of rants about how Bush clearly isn't murdering dissenting citizens the way some other fascist systems have, but this is a distinction in degree, not type. Cf. the sermon "Living under fascism" by a UU minister (not written by Kos, just re-posted) http://dailykos.com/story/2004/12/1/133310/217 See also "God Is With Us": Hitler's Rhetoric and the Lure of "Moral Values" http://www.buzzflash.com/farrell/04/12/far04041.html On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:27:10 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > Since you see fit to make such a strong expression of your political views > here, let me ask you just one question, with no intent to start a flame war: > Do you personally know any people that DON'T think the current U.S. > administration is fascist? Do you have any friends or even acquaintances > who voted for Bush in the last election? I'm just curious. > > GB > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:34 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? > > For your consideration: > > http://www.bushflash.com/14.html > > - samantha > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From harara at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 27 03:06:06 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 19:06:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <41EE472E.4020809@pobox.com> References: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> <41EE472E.4020809@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050126190342.0288f098@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I thusly refute you: Let c be the speed of light..... leads to e = mc^2 leads to atomic bombs yes, reality is unchanged, but definitions let us exploit reality better... >Definitions have no power over reality. >Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 27 05:06:08 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:06:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply from another list Message-ID: <005b01c5042d$e9c57b00$09893cd1@pavilion> I cross-posted Bret Kulakovich's reply to the "How to build a Space Habitat" list and bestonnet_00 answered thusly.:) More on that list can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ Dan From: "bestonnet_00" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:50 PM Subject: [How to build a Space Habitat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply from another list --- In howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com, "Technotranscendence" didn't write but copied from someone else: > I sent my "Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission" post to the Extropy-Chat > list and got the following reply. > Greetings, > > Not too sure on the launch profile/ops of the Soyuz - is it meant to > be de- and re-pressurized on orbit? It has been at times in the past so I think we could say yes. > It lacks an airlock. You could depressurise the orbital module seperately to the Re-entry module and use that as an airlock. [I'd also add that would adding an airlock to it be such a big deal that it prices the Soyuz out of this repair mission?] > Additionally, a Soyuz may not be "clean" enough to get near Hubble - > what does it oxidize/use for reaction control and maneuvering? > Whatever drops off near Hubble, stays with Hubble. Nitrogen Tetroxide and UDMH which is similar to what the Shuttle uses. http://www.astronautix.com/craft/soyuztma.htm From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jan 27 05:35:15 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 21:35:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Animal-Human Hybrids References: <20050126033437.80520.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com><001601c5035f$b236f610$6600a8c0@brainiac> <6.1.1.1.0.20050126100739.019c09c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c50431$fae027b0$6600a8c0@brainiac> ... or chimeras by any other name. Jeremy Rifkin (of course) weighs in: "He concedes that these studies would lead to some medical breakthroughs. Still, they should not be done.: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html Olga From starman2100 at cableone.net Thu Jan 27 05:42:42 2005 From: starman2100 at cableone.net (starman2100 at cableone.net) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:42:42 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Alcor President Joseph Waynick needs our support for his 2005 Agenda Message-ID: <1106804562_34467@S3.cableone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Jan 27 06:09:20 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:09:20 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I do know people who voted for Bush, some of them friends. So what is the point of this? The point of what I posted is to ask people to please pay very careful attention to where we are and where we may be heading. I believe that we are in the greatest danger from our own government in US history. That is not a comfortable position or one I have come to easily. - samantha On Jan 26, 2005, at 5:27 PM, Greg Burch wrote: > Since you see fit to make such a strong expression of your political > views here, let me ask you just one question, with no intent to start > a flame war: Do you personally know any people that DON'T think the > current U.S. administration is fascist?? Do you have any friends or > even acquaintances who voted for Bush in the last election?? I'm just > curious. > ? > GB > ? > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Samantha > Atkins > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 4:34 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? > > For your consideration: > > http://www.bushflash.com/14.html > > - samantha > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2222 bytes Desc: not available URL: From reason at longevitymeme.org Thu Jan 27 06:48:58 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2005 22:48:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Alcor President Joseph Waynick needs our support forhis 2005 Agenda In-Reply-To: <1106804562_34467@S3.cableone.net> Message-ID: --> starman2100 at cableone.net > But I am troubled because I know lofty goals have been set before by Alcor > leaders and not been achieved for various reasons. And so I ask > the list members > what they think we can do to support President Waynick in his > efforts to get > these things actually done before the year is out. What can we do? You're focusing on the wrong things. The real benefit that Joe Waynick brings to Alcor is a sense of business professionalism. This, not any particular aim at a set of capabilities, it what will serve Alcor well. So far he looks like he has his head screwed on right and is taking the right sort of steps to take Alcor to the next stage - none of that implying any slight against those who have brought the enterprise this far. There is simply a point at which the true believers, volunteers and entrepreneurs have to either grow into employees and businesspeople or hand over the reins to employees and businesspeople in order to assure growth, reliability and professionalism. The best thing that people here can do? Expect more. Don't cut Alcor any slack just because they're doing something we agree with - it's a business, and so we should demand the same level of service, progress and professionalism we do elsewhere. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From humania at t-online.de Thu Jan 27 07:52:16 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:52:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? References: <6442414E-6FEA-11D9-A986-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> Message-ID: <003801c50445$2349a290$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> I could easily add another vicious rant against Bush and neocon politics, and why sympathy for this kind of politics is incompatible with even the lowest definition of transhumanism as I understand it. Don't bother. Today, 60 years ago, the death camp of Auschwitz has been liberated by the Red Army. Industrialized production of death had been its unbelievable priority. In January and May 1945 the US Army were the good guys. They liberated my country from the worst nightmare the earth had ever known. Six months later, on August 6th, 1945, with the start of an artificial bird called Enola Gay, the USA experienced a turning point for they had found an even more efficient way to produce mega death based on the relations of mass, energy and light, German scientists had discovered. The list of US war crimes since that day towards Abu Ghraib and Falluja is long and I guess most of you know the locations and names. But I don't think it is even necessary at all to refer to the most horrendous crimes of Nazi Germany and its very special excess of fascism, national socialism, to find parallels for the disaster, the USA is already driving towards today. It starts with tiny steps like the one I want to direct your attention to. Fascism starts with keeping a population in a permanent state of fear and offering an outlet by producing an "enemy". I am convinced, the following link - steaming video - shows an excellent example of turning a modern society with instant media access into a totalitary police state.If you should not believe that this Michigan police video is a veritable step towards fascism, I guess, any discussion is a waste of time. Now, this is low, this is low, this is very very low: http://www.wzzm13.com/temp/7signsofterrorism.wmv humania ----- Original Message ----- From: Samantha Atkins To: ExI chat list Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 11:34 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? For your consideration: http://www.bushflash.com/14.html - samantha ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From es at popido.com Thu Jan 27 08:44:17 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:44:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? Message-ID: <200501270844.j0R8iHZZ009183@mail-core.space2u.com> On 2005-01-27 humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) wrote: >I could easily add another vicious rant against Bush and neocon politics, and why sympathy for this kind >of politics is incompatible with even the lowest definition of transhumanism as I understand it. I hardly think the other party would be more suited for the transhumanist agenda. The problem is within the democratic system and the national state itself. If the choice is between a "police state" and a "high tax 'wellfare' state" I would go for "no state". That's why I like the Ownership Society idea. Erik From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Jan 27 09:50:43 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:50:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <200501270844.j0R8iHZZ009183@mail-core.space2u.com> References: <200501270844.j0R8iHZZ009183@mail-core.space2u.com> Message-ID: Agreed. The evils we face in our government are not limited to Republicans or even to the Bush administration, evil as it is. 911 and the way it was handled should be more than proof enough of a level of rotten evil for most people. But the Clinton administration set up many of the power grabs and conditions that the Bush administration has built from. I published this admittedly in your face although simplistic little piece to point out the dangerous trends rather than to cast simple partisan aspersions. I am surprised that some think my doing so is a clear statement of where I stand politically. I know people all over the political spectrum who are as deeply concerned as I. So I hardly see what my personal political position has to do with it. - samantha On Jan 27, 2005, at 12:44 AM, Erik Starck wrote: > > On 2005-01-27 humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) wrote: >> I could easily add another vicious rant against Bush and neocon >> politics, and why sympathy for this kind >> of politics is incompatible with even the lowest definition of >> transhumanism as I understand it. > > I hardly think the other party would be more suited for the > transhumanist agenda. The problem is within the democratic system and > the national state itself. If the choice is between a "police state" > and a "high tax 'wellfare' state" I would go for "no state". > > That's why I like the Ownership Society idea. > > > Erik > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From humania at t-online.de Thu Jan 27 10:29:00 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:29:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? References: <200501270844.j0R8iHZZ009183@mail-core.space2u.com> Message-ID: <002701c5045b$729f3a60$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> I said: > >I could easily add another vicious rant against Bush and neocon politics, and why sympathy for this kind > >of politics is incompatible with even the lowest definition of transhumanism as I understand it. Eric Starck said: > I hardly think the other party would be more suited for the transhumanist agenda. I was not refering to the Democratic Party but to transhumanists on this list who explicitely support the politics of GWBush. humania From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 11:27:01 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 12:27:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Entering Tomorrowland Message-ID: <470a3c5205012703276b813f62@mail.gmail.com> Stuff Of Science Fiction Becomes Reality As People Clone Their Pets, Book Passage Into Space Want to clone your cat? Preserve your cadaver? Fly to space? The stuff of science fiction is now well within the realm of everyday commerce - if you've got the cash. Genetic Savings and Clone, in Sausalito, Calif., will clone your cat for $50,000. Virgin Galactic promises $190,000 space tours in the not-too-distant future. Alcor Life Extension Foundation will preserve your cadaver today for $150,000 - or your head alone for $80,000 - to lock-in the chance of being resurrected at some future date. By the end of this decade, consumers will be sporting wearable computing devices that offer always-on Internet access. Our contact lenses will beam images to our retina so everywhere we walk, we'll see a virtual-reality image. When friends call, we'll see them as though we're face-to-face. At least that's the future according to inventor Ray Kurzweil. http://www.ctnow.com/technology/hc-techlede0127.artjan27,1,650944.story?coll=hc-headlines-technology&ctrack=1&cset=true From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 27 13:30:01 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:30:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to a reply on another list Message-ID: <004301c50475$3ed8af80$e9893cd1@pavilion> I cross-posted Mike Lorrey's reply to the "How to build a Space Habitat" list and bestonnet_00 answered thusly.:) More on that list can be found at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ Dan From: "bestonnet_00" no_reply at yahoogroups.com To: howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:52 PM Subject: [How to build a Space Habitat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to a reply on another list --- In howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com, "Technotranscendence" didn't write but copied: > > From: "Mike Lorrey" mlorrey at y... > To: "ExI chat list" extropy-chat at l... > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:50 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission > > > My recommendation is instead is for the USAF to orbit the Orbital > Transfer Vehicle they developed several years ago at Phillips Lab > and never launched, hook that up to Hubble, and use it to move > Hubble to the ISS for servicing. It could then be used to put Hubble > into a much higher orbit as well and enable it to return to ISS in > the future for servicing, refuelling, etc. How much Delta v is it capable of? It takes a lot to change the plane of an orbit which is what would be required to bring the Hubble to ISS. From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 27 13:51:26 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 08:51:26 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hoyer Fights To Waste Money On Hubble Servicing Message-ID: <007001c50477$4beefce0$e9893cd1@pavilion> http://www.spacedaily.com/news/hubble-05d.html Key passage: "The Hubble Space Telescope is managed and operated by the Goddard Space Flight Center which is located in Congressman Hoyer's district." Dan From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 27 14:21:01 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:21:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Vitamin challenged in European Court of Justice Message-ID: <011001c5047b$6e4c2660$e9893cd1@pavilion> http://www2.ccnmatthews.com/scripts/ccn-release.pl?/2005/01/24/0124077n.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 17:35:25 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:35:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <5844e22f05012619192443c66a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050127173526.64329.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Jeff Medina wrote: > For what it's worth (seeing as I'm not the original target of the > query): > > I do not find the fascist moniker much of an exaggeration (if at > all), > am utterly disgusted by the administration, and have multiple friends > who voted for Bush in both elections. A number of whom have openly > stated they believe Bush is moving America towards Christian > theocracy, and that this is the Right Direction for both the country > and the world. > > I'm curious - on what construal of "fascist" is the Bush > administration *not*? For all the scoffing at the term, I've yet to > come across a genuine explication of what fascism is alongside how > Bush isn't it. Certainly, I've seen plenty of rants about how Bush > clearly isn't murdering dissenting citizens the way some other > fascist systems have, but this is a distinction in degree, not type. > I suppose, in that regard, he is less fascist than Wilson (who approved the execution of American citizens who dodged military service), Hoover (who approved MacArthur's killing hundreds of veterans in the Bonus Army massacre), Roosevelt, who approved the Japanese internment, implemented the largest confiscations of property rights in US history, had quite a number of draft dodgers executed (as well as 6 American Nazi saboteurs), and approved the turning away of hundreds, if not thousands, of jewish refugees seeking escape from the Nazis... Then you have Truman who turned over many thousands of Russian POWs to Stalin, (who had them executed), allowed the USSR to jump into Japan and seize half of Korea and Vietnam and China, and left office with an approval rating of 23%. You then have Kennedy and Johnson who engineered the Vietnam war, its draft, and surveillance upon hundreds, if not thousands of opposition figures... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 17:39:21 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:39:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to a reply on another list In-Reply-To: <004301c50475$3ed8af80$e9893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050127173922.22517.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The Phillips OTV's arcjet has enough power and fuel to be capable of SEVERAL trips back and forth to and from geosynchronous orbit with significant payloads. --- Technotranscendence wrote: > I cross-posted Mike Lorrey's reply to the "How to build a Space > Habitat" > list and bestonnet_00 answered thusly.:) > > More on that list can be found at: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ > > Dan > > From: "bestonnet_00" no_reply at yahoogroups.com > To: howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 9:52 PM > Subject: [How to build a Space Habitat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair > Mission--reply to a reply on another list > > --- In howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com, "Technotranscendence" > didn't write but copied: > > > > From: "Mike Lorrey" mlorrey at y... > > To: "ExI chat list" extropy-chat at l... > > Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:50 PM > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission > > > > > > My recommendation is instead is for the USAF to orbit the Orbital > > Transfer Vehicle they developed several years ago at Phillips Lab > > and never launched, hook that up to Hubble, and use it to move > > Hubble to the ISS for servicing. It could then be used to put > Hubble > > into a much higher orbit as well and enable it to return to ISS in > > the future for servicing, refuelling, etc. > > How much Delta v is it capable of? It takes a lot to change the > plane > of an orbit which is what would be required to bring the Hubble to > ISS. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 18:30:22 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:30:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050127173526.64329.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <5844e22f05012619192443c66a@mail.gmail.com> <20050127173526.64329.qmail@web30707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f0501271030194653e5@mail.gmail.com> While some of the actions you list might rightly be called fascist, your listing them certainly does not support your claim that the Bush administration is "less fascist" than the others. A rather more comprehensive comparison between the full programs of the various administrations would be needed to determine that in a reasonable sense. Also, see the links I provided for an explanation of what characterizes fascism [in annotated bullet point format in the case of the first link, quite referenceable] as I mean it here if you'd seriously like to compare "degree of fascism" across American presidencies. On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 09:35:25 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Jeff Medina wrote: > > > For what it's worth (seeing as I'm not the original target of the > > query): > > > > I do not find the fascist moniker much of an exaggeration (if at > > all), > > am utterly disgusted by the administration, and have multiple friends > > who voted for Bush in both elections. A number of whom have openly > > stated they believe Bush is moving America towards Christian > > theocracy, and that this is the Right Direction for both the country > > and the world. > > > > I'm curious - on what construal of "fascist" is the Bush > > administration *not*? For all the scoffing at the term, I've yet to > > come across a genuine explication of what fascism is alongside how > > Bush isn't it. Certainly, I've seen plenty of rants about how Bush > > clearly isn't murdering dissenting citizens the way some other > > fascist systems have, but this is a distinction in degree, not type. > > > > I suppose, in that regard, he is less fascist than Wilson (who approved > the execution of American citizens who dodged military service), Hoover > (who approved MacArthur's killing hundreds of veterans in the Bonus > Army massacre), Roosevelt, who approved the Japanese internment, > implemented the largest confiscations of property rights in US history, > had quite a number of draft dodgers executed (as well as 6 American > Nazi saboteurs), and approved the turning away of hundreds, if not > thousands, of jewish refugees seeking escape from the Nazis... Then you > have Truman who turned over many thousands of Russian POWs to Stalin, > (who had them executed), allowed the USSR to jump into Japan and seize > half of Korea and Vietnam and China, and left office with an approval > rating of 23%. You then have Kennedy and Johnson who engineered the > Vietnam war, its draft, and surveillance upon hundreds, if not > thousands of opposition figures... > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 18:58:27 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 10:58:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <002701c5045b$729f3a60$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <20050127185827.98885.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> You think Schroeder or Chirac are any better? --- Hubert Mania wrote: > I said: > > > >I could easily add another vicious rant against Bush and neocon > politics, > and why sympathy for this kind > > >of politics is incompatible with even the lowest definition of > transhumanism as I understand it. > > Eric Starck said: > > > I hardly think the other party would be more suited for the > transhumanist > agenda. > > I was not refering to the Democratic Party but to transhumanists on > this > list who explicitely support the politics of GWBush. > > humania > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Jan 27 19:46:29 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 11:46:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? Message-ID: <1106855189.14912@whirlwind.he.net> Hubert Mania wrote: > Eric Starck said: > > I hardly think the other party would be more suited for the transhumanist > agenda. > > I was not refering to the Democratic Party but to transhumanists on this > list who explicitely support the politics of GWBush. So what are we supposed to take away from your comments? You are consistently inconsistent and muddled in your reasoning. If the Democrats are no better than the Republicans for transhumanism, then supporting the politics of the Republicans cannot be any worse than supporting the politics of the Democrats from a transhumanist viewpoint. A more reasonable assessment would be that transhumanism is pretty orthogonal to the US political process because it doesn't drive anything and neither major party really gives a crap about what transhumanists want. Most beneficial outcomes are side-effects of other political battles. Ad hominems are no more valid when applied to Bush than anyone else. Some of the political ideas of his administration are pretty good by any reasonable measure, and in many cases, some of his bad ideas are still better than the worse ideas offered by the Democrats. Bush is not all evil all the time, and sometimes he is even mostly correct. I'm more interested in issues than party affiliations or ideological flavors. Those that think Bush is some kind of extremist outlier in the history of the US are myopic and apparently quite ignorant of US history. Get a grip and an education. Transhumanism endorses ideas, not political parties, and therefore it is not really possible to leave the political party reservation of transhumanism because it doesn't have one, despite the occasional kneejerk assertion to the contrary. Making assertions to the effect of "We should all like fuzzy bunnies, and I hate cabbage. Therefore, anybody who likes cabbage must hate fuzzy bunnies." just makes you look like a jackass incapable of basic reasoning. You didn't just drink the propaganda Kool-Aid, you are drowning in it and the lack of oxygen is affecting your thinking. I know it is a weakness of human nature to become emotionally invested in inconsequential tribal spats, but people who want to be transhumanists need to be able to get past that almost as a prerequisite. In fact, a good portion of the transhumanist ideals are all about shedding this behavior. cheers, j. andrew rogers From neptune at superlink.net Thu Jan 27 20:04:12 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 15:04:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to a replyon another list References: <20050127173922.22517.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002d01c504ab$5fdc02a0$69893cd1@pavilion> On Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:39 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com wrote: Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to a replyon another list >>> My recommendation is instead is for the >>> USAF to orbit the Orbital Transfer Vehicle >>> they developed several years ago at >>> Phillips Lab and never launched, hook >>> that up to Hubble, and use it to move >>> Hubble to the ISS for servicing. It could >>> then be used to put Hubble into a much >>> higher orbit as well and enable it to >>> return to ISS in the future for servicing, >>> refuelling, etc. >> >> How much Delta v is it capable of? It takes >> a lot to change the plane of an orbit which is >> what would be required to bring the Hubble >> to ISS. > > The Phillips OTV's arcjet has enough power > and fuel to be capable of SEVERAL trips back > and forth to and from geosynchronous orbit with > significant payloads. Supposedly. It's not actually flown to space. And we'd have to do the math to see if this actual made it capable of the necessary orbital plane change. Also, do you think it'd be ready for flight in three years or less? My Soyuz proposal has the benefit of using tried and tested technology for the most part... Cheers! Dan See "Tackling Tebye Again!" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye2.html From sjatkins at mac.com Thu Jan 27 21:50:24 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 13:50:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050127185827.98885.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050127185827.98885.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <734074D8-70AD-11D9-A986-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> In terms of being less dangerous to the world at large and more checked by the people and various other factors, Yes, they are both in that sense "better". I also doubt either of them kowtow to or are under the influence of fundamentalists. Beside, who is "better" than whom is hardly the point. - samantha On Jan 27, 2005, at 10:58 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > You think Schroeder or Chirac are any better? > > --- Hubert Mania wrote: > >> I said: >> >>>> I could easily add another vicious rant against Bush and neocon >> politics, >> and why sympathy for this kind >>>> of politics is incompatible with even the lowest definition of >> transhumanism as I understand it. >> >> Eric Starck said: >> >>> I hardly think the other party would be more suited for the >> transhumanist >> agenda. >> >> I was not refering to the Democratic Party but to transhumanists on >> this >> list who explicitely support the politics of GWBush. >> >> humania >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 27 22:59:45 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 14:59:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to a replyon another list In-Reply-To: <002d01c504ab$5fdc02a0$69893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050127225945.225.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dan wrote: > On Thursday, January 27, 2005 12:39 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com > wrote: > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to > a > replyon another list > >>> My recommendation is instead is for the > >>> USAF to orbit the Orbital Transfer Vehicle > >>> they developed several years ago at > >>> Phillips Lab and never launched, hook > >>> that up to Hubble, and use it to move > >>> Hubble to the ISS for servicing. It could > >>> then be used to put Hubble into a much > >>> higher orbit as well and enable it to > >>> return to ISS in the future for servicing, > >>> refuelling, etc. > >> > >> How much Delta v is it capable of? It takes > >> a lot to change the plane of an orbit which is > >> what would be required to bring the Hubble > >> to ISS. > > > > The Phillips OTV's arcjet has enough power > > and fuel to be capable of SEVERAL trips back > > and forth to and from geosynchronous orbit with > > significant payloads. > > Supposedly. It's not actually flown to space. And we'd have to do > the > math to see if this actual made it capable of the necessary orbital > plane change. > > Also, do you think it'd be ready for flight in three years or less? > My Soyuz proposal has the benefit of using tried and tested technology for the most part... There used to be pictures of it fully assembled back in the 1997-1999 period, on the Phillips Lab website. Don't know whether they are just being more reticent with information since 9/11, or what, but I'm wondering if it wasn't launched on a classified program... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Thu Jan 27 23:57:33 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 00:57:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Redefining the word 'liberation' Message-ID: <20050127235153.M75068@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> There was an interesting political to-do in the Baltics when I visited Riga and Tallinn last month. The Baltic presidents were invited to Putin's Moscow May 2005 celebration of the defeat of the Nazis in World War Two. The politicians in the Baltics had decided to make a united stand/statement against such an ironic event, and to refuse the invitation. Then the Latvian present thought better, and choose to accept the invitation. She decided that she could use the event to make a statement of her own. Amara Vike-Freiberga: ?I?ll go to Moscow? http://www.baltictimes.com/art.php?art_id=11770 See this link for her whole speech for her (timely) statement http://halldor2.blogspot.com/2005/01/latvian-presidents-statement.html I've shown part of her speech below. Latvia, together with the rest of Europe, rejoices at the defeat of Nazi Germany and its fascist regime in May of 1945. However, unlike the case in Western Europe, the fall of the hated Nazi German empire did not result in my country's liberation. Instead, the three Baltic countries of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania were subject to another brutal occupation by another foreign, totalitarian empire, that of the Soviet Union. For five long decades, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania were erased from the map of Europe. Under the Soviet rule, the three Baltic countries experienced mass deportations and killings, the loss of their freedom, and the influx of millions of Russian-speaking settlers. On May the 9th of this year, Europe's leaders will meet in Moscow. This is the date when Russia traditionally pays tribute to the millions of Russians who died during the Second World War, and celebrates its costly victory over Nazi Germany. As the President of a country that subsequently suffered greatly under the Soviet rule, I feel obliged to remind the world at large that humanity's most devastating conflict might not have occurred, had the two totalitarian regimes of Nazi Germany and Soviet Union not agreed to secretly divide the territories of Eastern Europe amongst themselves. I am referring to the shameful agreement signed on August 23rd of 1939 by the foreign ministers of the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, Vyatcheslav Molotov and Joachim von Ribbentrop. A week-and-a-half later, as a direct result of this disgraceful pact's secret supplementary protocols, Hitler invaded Poland and started the Second World War. The Soviet Union then occupied the eastern half of Poland, with Hitler's full compliance, and invaded Finland later that year. Then, in June of 1940, the Soviet Union invaded and occupied Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. These invasions and occupations had been foreseen and agreed to in advance by Hitler and Stalin. It is precisely these two dictators who bear the brunt of the blame for the immense human loss and suffering that resulted during the war that ensued. In commemorating those who lost their lives during the Second World War, we must not fail to commemorate the crimes against humanity committed by both Hitler and Stalin. We must not fail to mention these two totalitarian tyrants by name, lest the world forget the responsibility that they bear for beginning that war. From neptune at superlink.net Fri Jan 28 00:05:46 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:05:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply to areplyon another list References: <20050127225945.225.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002101c504cd$1e80ee20$e3893cd1@pavilion> On Thursday, January 27, 2005 5:59 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com wrote: >>> The Phillips OTV's arcjet has enough power >>> and fuel to be capable of SEVERAL trips back >>> and forth to and from geosynchronous orbit with >>> significant payloads. >> >> Supposedly. It's not actually flown to space. >> And we'd have to do the math to see if this >> actual made it capable of the necessary >> orbital plane change. >> >> Also, do you think it'd be ready for flight in >> three years or less? My Soyuz proposal >> has the benefit of using tried and tested >> technology for the most part... > > There used to be pictures of it fully assembled > back in the 1997-1999 period, on the Phillips > Lab website. Don't know whether they are just > being more reticent with information since 9/11, > or what, but I'm wondering if it wasn't launched > on a classified program... You can wonder, but this does not actually do much. Also, I doubt anyone's using it because it'd be fairly easy to detect -- unless they're masking it somehow, but that's like adding epicycles to the Ptolemaic system. It doesn't take anything that's above the level of consumer optical telescopes (and, in the radio spectrum, consumer satellite dishes) to track something that big on orbit. Plus, launches are watched. If, say, the USAF sent up the OTV but tried to hide it as a spy satellite, it'd be fairly easy for most foreign governments to notice that the alleged spy satellite did some funny stuff once it got into space. This is not to even bring up leaks... A more likely explanation is that it just didn't go further in development and that means were you to use it now you'd have to restart the development and get some actual flights. I doubt anyone would want a Hubble repair mission to be the test flight of the thing. If this is so -- and it seems much more likely to be the case than your theory -- then my Soyuz repair mission proposal appears to be a much better choice. Finally, imagine that your theory is true and they're using it now, but as part of some secret operation. What makes you think it'll be declassified just to save an aging and soon to be replaced space telescope? That's sort of like expecting that a black helicopter will land in downtown LA at noon on a weekday to help someone fix a flat. Maybe they have antigravity too and FTL drives...:) Cheers! Dan See "Tackling Tebye Again!" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye2.html From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 02:33:20 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 18:33:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050126190342.0288f098@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050128023320.66081.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Let's give the coming Iraq election-- and those Iraqi elections coming afterwards-- a chance, before we call the current administration fascist. If Iraq eventually succeeds in transforming into a democracy then the Bush administration wins and will not be remembered as fascist. The victors write the history books. If the Axis had won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice and reading in German how Hitler vanquished Communism 60 years ago. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 28 03:20:49 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 21:20:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128023320.66081.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050126190342.0288f098@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050128023320.66081.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050127211732.01a5cec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >If the Axis had >won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice and reading in >German how Hitler vanquished Communism 60 years ago. Our ranks would have been thinned out a tad. There'd be no Eliezer Yudkowsky to pester us, for example. Not too sure about Zero Powers either. Yikes, sometimes this list seems to be top-heavy with posters who skipped all their history classes. Damien Broderick From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 03:45:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 19:45:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050127211732.01a5cec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <200501280345.j0S3jhC01165@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Damien Broderick > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? > > > >If the Axis had won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice ... > > Our ranks would have been thinned out a tad. There'd be no Eliezer > Yudkowsky to pester us, for example... > > Yikes, sometimes this list seems to be top-heavy with posters who skipped > all their history classes. > > Damien Broderick Oh, we went to the classes. Granted they were worse than useless, but we went to them. Eliezer and sushi in the same post reminds me to wish Eli a most warm extropian welcome to the neighborhood. One thing that Santa Clara has better than Atlanta is loooots of good choices for excellent fresh sushi. This is coming from one who has sampled the delicacy in many cities all over the place. I am a self-confessed total sushi-whore, one who will commit any act, regardless of how depraved, immoral, nasty, distasteful, indecent or unclean, just to satisfy, even temporarily, my lust for a fix of sushi. Bay area extropians, do let us welcome Eliezer to the hood with an explosive sushi orgasm, as soon as he gets settled in and ready for it. Or other viands would be ok too, for I know that sushi isn't everyone's cup of saki. spike From neptune at superlink.net Fri Jan 28 04:03:08 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:03:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? References: <200501280345.j0S3jhC01165@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <007001c504ee$47365dc0$ce893cd1@pavilion> On Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:45 PM spike spike66 at comcast.net wrote: > Bay area extropians, do let us welcome > Eliezer to the hood with an explosive > sushi orgasm, as soon as he gets settled > in and ready for it. Or other viands would > be ok too, for I know that sushi isn't > everyone's cup of saki. Nor is saki.:/ Anyhow, with that kind of offer, don't you think you're opening the door very wide for others to move in?:) Later! Dan See "Tackling Tebye Again!" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye2.html From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 04:40:52 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:40:52 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <007001c504ee$47365dc0$ce893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <200501280441.j0S4fEC07141@tick.javien.com> > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Dan > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? > > On Thursday, January 27, 2005 10:45 PM spike spike66 at comcast.net wrote: > > Bay area extropians, do let us welcome > > Eliezer to the hood with an explosive > > sushi orgasm, as soon as he gets settled > > in and ready for it. Or other viands would > > be ok too, for I know that sushi isn't > > everyone's cup of saki. > > Nor is saki.:/ Anyhow, with that kind of offer, don't you think you're > opening the door very wide for others to move in?:) > > Later! > > Dan By all means, extropians do move to the Bay Area, the more the merrier. Socially we haven't done much lately. We need a new meme generator to kick off a wildly extropian social season. SL4ers most welcome too, and the usual collection of cryonauts. Shall we negotiate a time and place on ExiBay, or here? I don't know if Eliezer subscribes to ExiBay. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 04:44:31 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 20:44:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <007001c504ee$47365dc0$ce893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <200501280444.j0S4igC07492@tick.javien.com> > ... don't you think you're > opening the door very wide for others to move in?:) Jeff Davis is in town, don't know for how long. Does anyone know if the K. Eric himself is up for a massive sushi-glomb? spike From humania at t-online.de Fri Jan 28 06:59:45 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:59:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? References: <1106855189.14912@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <002201c50506$f5686790$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> I said: > > I was not refering to the Democratic Party but to transhumanists on this > > list who explicitely support the politics of GWBush. JARogers said: > So what are we supposed to take away from your comments? You are > consistently inconsistent and muddled in your reasoning. Yes, sure I am inconsistent. I love to see contradictions rising in my thinking and add them to my growing understanding of myself and the world. I do not want a closed consistent world view. Okay, I did not expect, someone here was thinking I might applaud an american president named kerry who supports the war on Iraq, just because he is NOT a republican. Hey, hey, I am a german citizen and I don't give a damn about democrats or republicans. What I mean goes beyond narrow-minded differences between american political parties. The same is true about german political parties, too, of course. My point of view is: if anybody here on the list does explicitely support the politics of preemptive wars, no matter what the name of the present us president is, she or he can be no transhumanist, as I do understand transhumanism. I am no extropian, I am no member of the wta, I am a single independent transhumanist with my very own measures of reason, anarchy, feelings, irrationalisms, anger and contempt towards anybody who still applauds any action of the bush administration after Abu Ghraib and Falluja. I do not regard extropians as my peer group, so I do not need your approvement. I am simply observing the development of this group and every once in a while I do express my anger and contempt when I see that people who call themselves transhumanists support war criminals and obviously approve of the bloody side effects of us imperialsm (yes, using small letters for names and countries is an expression of my contempt, too). humania From es at popido.com Fri Jan 28 08:09:58 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:09:58 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? Message-ID: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> On 2005-01-28 humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) wrote: >My point of view is: if anybody here on the list does explicitely support >the politics of preemptive wars, no matter what the name of the present us >president is, she or he can be no transhumanist, as I do understand >transhumanism. I am no extropian, I am no member of the wta, I am a single >independent transhumanist with my very own measures of reason, anarchy, >feelings, irrationalisms, anger and contempt towards anybody who still >applauds any action of the bush administration after Abu Ghraib and Falluja. Right now there is an ongoing genoicide in Sudan: http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/01/27/sudan.us/ famine under dictatorship in North Korea: http://www.wfp.org/country_brief/indexcountry.asp?country=408 and civil war in disaster-struck Sri Lanka: http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=27174 Just to name a few of the places where people of the world are being killed right now as we speak. What is your suggestion on how to help these people and stop the killing as soon as possible? Erik From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 28 07:39:14 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:39:14 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Who is really the dominant gender? In-Reply-To: <20050124222839.67383.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050124195933.15037.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20050124222839.67383.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050127233805.028aecc0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> At last, we come to male liberation, been acutely aware of this for 2 decades.... >c) Men are penalized by the legal system, are rarely, if ever, given >preference in child custody, and are given the burden of proof in >disputes over conduct in marriage and child raising. Men are served >with restraining orders, eviction orders, and other punishing orders >based merely on the say-so of their spouse, but men must provide >evidentiary support to obtain similar orders against their spouses. >More than ten times as many men are incarcerated than women, despite >women committing more than 10% of crime, while boys are persecuted in >the school system for behaving like boys and not girls. Men are >expected to pay child support in an overwhelming number of cases, are >declared the father based merely on the say-so of the mother even in >spite of DNA evidence to the contrary, and women rarely pay child >support when the situation is reversed. A woman can kidnap a fetus to >another state, declare the name of the father, get child support orders >against him, and he is never allowed any visitation rights. A father >who does the same thing is automatically a criminal. >d) In every society on earth, men live significantly shorter lives than >women, despite women having to deal with significant medical traumas >such as childbirth. >e) female humans wear the dominant coloration, with flamboyant >clothing, jewelry, and makeup while men are encouraged to wear neutral >colors so as to not distract attention from their female companion. >f) in studies on domestic violence, not only do they find that nearly >twice as many women as men believe it is okay to commit violence >against their mate, a similar proportion actually do commit violence >against their mate. Men are discouraged by society, by the legal >systems, from complaining about or prosecuting such abuse. > >===== >Mike Lorrey ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 28 07:47:10 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 23:47:10 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <20050126001427.394.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050125210100.81376.qmail@web41310.mail.yahoo.com> <20050126001427.394.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050127234509.02862ed0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Sure you can..... But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an extension of humanity, not a rejection of the body..... At 04:14 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote: >Can I write an over-the-top essay on why we have nothing to lose in >becoming transhuman and posthuman, because the human body is disgusting >and human nature is capricious, catty & disingenuous; we are nothing but >hairless apes on the third rock from the Sun? Ned Late ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = In Case of Emergency = = First Call Andrea at = = 831 458 2925 = = Then Call me at = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From humania at t-online.de Fri Jan 28 09:17:29 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:17:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> Message-ID: <001801c5051a$3332e830$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Erik wrote: > Just to name a few of the places where people of the world are being > killed right now as we speak. > What is your suggestion on how to help these people and stop the killing > as soon as possible? Erik, I am treating myself to the luxury of having no solution to offer. In my childish anarcho dreams I would redistribute the accumulated wealth of the planet in an appropriate and fair way. But the predator capitalists of the world would tear me apart. And apart from this unattainable goal I can see no relief. Count me out as a contributor for global solutions. humania From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jan 28 10:07:29 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:07:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <001801c5051a$3332e830$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> <001801c5051a$3332e830$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <20050128100728.GS1404@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 10:17:29AM +0100, Hubert Mania wrote: > But the predator capitalists of the world would tear me apart. And apart > from this unattainable goal I can see no relief. Count me out as a > contributor for global solutions. Giving people unfiltered, unconstrained access to global knowledge might be the only thing which could nudge people into position of helping themselves. It won't work for everyone, every time. The infrastructure itself is suitable for establishing superfascist control regimes (something like the Emergents, not trivial things a la 1984). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 28 12:08:45 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:08:45 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <200501280444.j0S4igC07492@tick.javien.com> References: <200501280444.j0S4igC07492@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41FA2B4D.9070702@pobox.com> Eliezer (pardon his illeism) is staying with a friend in Palo Alto whilst his furniture transits cross-country. His sleep cycle would presently make it difficult for him to attend an evening gathering, plus his car hasn't arrived yet. He begs the indulgence of being allowed to settle in and unpack before meeting his countless admirers. I would guess Sunday, February 13th would be an opportune date for him. Also, Spike, I hate to say this, but I've always avoided sushi, so far, because of concerns about raw fish. Maybe I would eat irradiated sushi. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 14:27:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:27:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050127211732.01a5cec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050128142719.37446.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > >If the Axis had > >won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice and reading in > >German how Hitler vanquished Communism 60 years ago. > > Our ranks would have been thinned out a tad. There'd be no Eliezer > Yudkowsky to pester us, for example. Not too sure about Zero Powers > either. > > Yikes, sometimes this list seems to be top-heavy with posters who > skipped all their history classes. Depends on which history classes you are talking about, and who is writing the history books. The Final Solution was only implemented late in the war as a means of concealing the slave labor and substandard living conditions, human experiments, etc. from the inevitable war crimes investigators. At least until 1943, the only gas chambers were used to delouse clothing of prisoners (they weren't tall enough for a person to stand in). Originally the nazi plan was to have the jews work their 'debt to germany' off for up to a decade, then be deported to Palestine, where the idea was that they'd not make life difficult for europeans anymore, just the arabs. To this end, various zionist groups received assistance from German agents in Palestine in causing difficulties for the British through the 1930's. If the Japanese hadn't mucked things up with an attack on the US, the european war would have been over by '43. Hitler was reportedly truly pissed when he heard about Pearl Harbor. Having sat out the war, with an economy in a continuing miserable state, the US would have been in little position to dictate international policy to either Germany or Japan, and cries of Sino-German cultural imperialism would be the norm here in the US by now. Hell, we might have asked them for foreign aid.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 14:38:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 06:38:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <001801c5051a$3332e830$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <20050128143830.93728.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Hubert Mania wrote: > Erik wrote: > > > Just to name a few of the places where people of the world are > > being killed right now as we speak. > > What is your suggestion on how to help these people and stop the > > killing as soon as possible? > > Erik, I am treating myself to the luxury of having no solution to > offer. In my childish anarcho dreams I would redistribute the > accumulated wealth of the planet in an appropriate and fair way. > > But the predator capitalists of the world would tear me apart. And > apart from this unattainable goal I can see no relief. Count me out > as a contributor for global solutions. Ah, the cowardice disguised as principle rears its head. A pacifist, who would stand by as his own spouse and children were raped and murdered merely to stand on 'principle' that one's own life is more important, then blame the rest of society for not properly bribing the criminals to stay away from them. Anarchists cannot tolerate greater fascism abroad while focusing on minor fascists at home. They do so at their own peril. The petty tyrants in your own backyard are the only thing keeping the major tyrants abroad from making you their slave as well. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 15:37:07 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:37:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128142719.37446.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050128153708.32525.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Alright then, we'd be eating rice with no sushi :-{ > Yikes, sometimes this list seems to be top-heavy with posters who > skipped all their history classes. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 15:47:15 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 07:47:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050127234509.02862ed0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, and wouldn't posthumanism be a rejection of the human body as we know it? >Hara Ra wrote: >But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an extension of >humanity, not a rejection of the body..... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jan 28 16:32:51 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:32:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050127234509.02862ed0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050128163250.GF1404@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 28, 2005 at 07:47:15AM -0800, Ned Late wrote: > However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, I don't see a difference between transhumanism and posthumanism. It's just a different label stuck to the same item. > and wouldn't posthumanism be a rejection of the human > body as we know it? It's a natural process, rather. Nothing wrong with being a baby, right? But (most) adults will look at you askance, if you insist to be diapered and breast-fed the rest of your life. There are still some organisms on earth which are virtually identical to their ancestors. It would work for meat puppets too, but for habitat restructuring (destruction, from our current point of view). Better pet than dead, in this case. (Me, I'd rather be post/transhuman. YMMV). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From humania at t-online.de Fri Jan 28 16:45:27 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:45:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? References: <20050128143830.93728.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007501c50558$c68541d0$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Mike Lorrey fantasized: > Ah, the cowardice disguised as principle rears its head. A pacifist, > who would stand by as his own spouse and children were raped and > murdered merely to stand on 'principle' that one's own life is more > important, then blame the rest of society for not properly bribing the > criminals to stay away from them. Hey, I love this kind of provocation though I don't know why the hell you are addressing ME while talking about cowardly pacifists. It must be that cultural gap between old europe and the new world. If I were raised in violence obsessed usa I guess, we would be best friends. I remember it was you, who on the eve of Iraq destruction came up with that quote comparing pacifists to fascists or to some similarly dark horsemen of the apocalypse. May I remind you that I am a militant pacifist and an excellent rifleman as well. So if you should ever approach my house to test the stability of a militant german pacifist, you better watch out, because I will be armed with something that hurts american amateur gunmen. By the way, my offer from April 2003 still holds: just say the word, and our militant pacifist army will rush over to the usa on engines that celebrate the shiny relation between mass, energy and light(ning) and liberate your suffering population from the dark imperator and his ugly crew. humania From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 17:14:44 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:14:44 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <41FA2B4D.9070702@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200501281715.j0SHF1C03781@tick.javien.com> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? > > Eliezer (pardon his illeism) is staying with a friend in Palo Alto whilst > his furniture transits cross-country. His sleep cycle would presently > make it difficult for him to attend an evening gathering... OK cool, we can do a Sunday afternoon glombathon. > I would guess Sunday, February 13th would be an opportune date for him... Lets make that a target date. Can someone cross post over to SL4? And include the usual suspects, the cryos, the Foresight Instituters, the Mensans if you have buddies over there, the Accelerating Change folks, etc. > Also, Spike, I hate to say this, but I've always avoided sushi... Oh, well this is actually a good thing. This way he (spike) need not wait until the 13th to indulge his (spike's) addiction, and can also have fun with the illeism thing at the same time. Better idea: let us arrange a pre-Eliezer sushi feed, referring to the food by first name, having conversations with it just before devouring. (Other patrons at the sushi bar will be most puzzled.) Then we can do something more mainstream, such as Indian, Mexican or buffet, for the Eliezer-fest. I propose we move the discussion of details to ExiBay, so as not to clutter the airwaves while the others debate much more heavyhearted topics here. spike From max at maxmore.com Fri Jan 28 17:42:17 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:42:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Hypothesis as thought-crime, spiked essay on Larry Summers' comment Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050128114002.02d28e30@pop-server.austin.rr.com> A different take on the recent controversy from the always-stimulating spiked-online: Hypothesis as thought-crime Are women worse at maths than men? An American professor gives his view on the dispute engulfing Harvard. by Norman Levitt http://www.spiked-online.com/articles/0000000CA8A7.htm If you're not in the habit of reading spiked, you should try it. These are the smartest, most extropic "socialists" I've ever come across! Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or more at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org ________________________________________________________________ Director of Content Solutions, ManyWorlds Inc.: http://www.manyworlds.com --- Thought leadership in the innovation economy m.more at manyworlds.com _______________________________________________________ From sjvans at ameritech.net Fri Jan 28 17:44:44 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 09:44:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128142719.37446.qmail@web30701.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050128174444.1908.qmail@web81209.mail.yahoo.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Depends on which history classes you are talking about, and who is >writing the history books. The Final Solution was only implemented late >in the war as a means of concealing the slave labor and substandard >living conditions, human experiments, etc. from the inevitable war >crimes investigators. At least until 1943, the only gas chambers were >used to delouse clothing of prisoners (they weren't tall enough for a >person to stand in). Where did you learn *your* history? Gas chambers (carbon monoxide) were in use from 1940 onward, for use with "defectives. SS Special Action units followed the army into the Soviet Union, conducting mass executions by firing squad, graduated to gas vans. The classic "gas chambers" of Poland were not the start of the Final Solution, but its culmination. Even if you only set the date of the start of the Final Solution as the Wansee conference, that is Jan 1942, well before it became obvious to anyone, let alone the Nazis, that they would have to answer for their actions. Mass gassings were well underway in 1942, not 1943 as you say. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 18:35:31 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 10:35:31 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <007501c50558$c68541d0$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <200501281835.j0SIZgC13150@tick.javien.com> > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? > > Mike Lorrey fantasized: > > > Ah, the cowardice disguised as principle rears its head... > > Hey, I love this kind of provocation ... > > May I remind you that I am a militant pacifist and an excellent rifleman > as well. So if you should ever approach my house to test the stability of a > militant german pacifist, you better watch out... > > humania... If I had the authority to kill a thread, I would kill this one. Guys, do knock this off, forthwith. spike From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 28 18:53:02 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:53:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <200501281715.j0SHF1C03781@tick.javien.com> References: <200501281715.j0SHF1C03781@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41FA8A0E.8020407@pobox.com> spike wrote: >>Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? >> >>Eliezer (pardon his illeism) is staying with a friend in Palo Alto whilst >>his furniture transits cross-country. His sleep cycle would presently >>make it difficult for him to attend an evening gathering... > > OK cool, we can do a Sunday afternoon glombathon. > >> I would guess Sunday, February 13th would be an opportune date for him... > > Lets make that a target date. Can someone cross post over > to SL4? And include the usual suspects, the cryos, the Foresight > Instituters, the Accelerating Change folks, etc. Wait! Halt! Cease! Desist! I checked with someone whom I much wish to be present, and February 13th won't work. It might not be safe in any case, to plan this far in advance; who knows what difficulties shall attend upon the recently moved Eliezer. Spike, I'm sorry to leave you hanging, but can we defer planning this event until a later date? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Jan 28 18:50:37 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:50:37 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <006a01c503ed$4425fd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> References: <20050126195052.78615.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <006a01c503ed$4425fd40$5b893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <7FCC121B-715D-11D9-94B0-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Greetings, ISS is @ 51- 52, Hubble is either 28.5 or 32 (?) A shuttle doesn't have enough reserves in RCS/OMS to do both. Bret Kulakovich On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:23 PM, Technotranscendence wrote: > On Wednesday, January 26, 2005 2:50 PM Mike Lorrey mlorrey at yahoo.com > wrote: >> My recommendation is instead is for the USAF >> to orbit the Orbital Transfer Vehicle they >> developed several years ago at Phillips Lab >> and never launched, hook that up to Hubble, >> and use it to move Hubble to the ISS for >> servicing. It could then be used to put Hubble >> into a much higher orbit as well and enable it >> to return to ISS in the future for servicing, >> refuelling, etc. > > Not a bad idea, but... What orbit is the Hubble on in relation to the > ISS? How easy would be to change orbital planes -- assuming they're > not > on the orbit? How far along was the OTV in development? (My > Soyuz-Progress suggestion has the benefit that both vehicles are well > tested and routinely used, so there's no much new development needed.) > > BTW, it'd be nice to see the ISS used for something -- other than just > a > place to put people to barely maintain the ISS. > >> The Phillips OTV uses passive solar thermal >> power to run a plasma engine. > > Has it been tested in space? > > Finally, my actual recommend is that NO repair or replacement mission > is > funded and that interested parties start looking to other alternatives, > especially private space telescopes. This might increase interest in > something like the SpaceDev ILO project and shift more focus to private > space development. > > Cheers! > > Dan > See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dwish at indco.net Fri Jan 28 18:52:48 2005 From: dwish at indco.net (Dustin Wish with INDCO Networks) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:52:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <007501c50558$c68541d0$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <200501281829.j0SITclA001948@br549.indconet.com> Such a waste of a good email forum to hear talk of hate and wasting of minds. Instead of focusing on technology, the topic, we waste time and resource and turn this forum into a denigrated chat room atmosphere. I guess we can now sit around and wait for Jesus's return unless you?re an atheist and then he is just a nice jew guy who liked woodworking. Oh, someone tag the german with an RFID, big brother might want to follow his anger around for a while see if it leads him to France...lol -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Hubert Mania Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:45 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? Mike Lorrey fantasized: > Ah, the cowardice disguised as principle rears its head. A pacifist, > who would stand by as his own spouse and children were raped and > murdered merely to stand on 'principle' that one's own life is more > important, then blame the rest of society for not properly bribing the > criminals to stay away from them. Hey, I love this kind of provocation though I don't know why the hell you are addressing ME while talking about cowardly pacifists. It must be that cultural gap between old europe and the new world. If I were raised in violence obsessed usa I guess, we would be best friends. I remember it was you, who on the eve of Iraq destruction came up with that quote comparing pacifists to fascists or to some similarly dark horsemen of the apocalypse. May I remind you that I am a militant pacifist and an excellent rifleman as well. So if you should ever approach my house to test the stability of a militant german pacifist, you better watch out, because I will be armed with something that hurts american amateur gunmen. By the way, my offer from April 2003 still holds: just say the word, and our militant pacifist army will rush over to the usa on engines that celebrate the shiny relation between mass, energy and light(ning) and liberate your suffering population from the dark imperator and his ugly crew. humania _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.3 - Release Date: 1/24/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.3 - Release Date: 1/24/2005 From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Jan 28 18:57:24 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:57:24 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <20050126195052.78615.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050126195052.78615.qmail@web30710.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72A7E37F-715E-11D9-94B0-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> OTV boosting to higher orbit would be good - but it is my understanding that the ISS has a cloud around it. Not the neighborhood you'd want to put your shiny clean telescope in. We could boost Hubble to a different inclination (OTV, progress) so that a mission could reach it from the ISS Then Soyuz over to the Hubble and back from the ISS. A russian booster could park all the new bits next to the Hubble. Then, put Hubble back at the end. Then it would be up to Story Musgrave to come out of retirement and save the day! On Jan 26, 2005, at 2:50 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > My recommendation is instead is for the USAF to orbit the Orbital > Transfer Vehicle they developed several years ago at Phillips Lab and > never launched, hook that up to Hubble, and use it to move Hubble to > the ISS for servicing. It could then be used to put Hubble into a much > higher orbit as well and enable it to return to ISS in the future for > servicing, refuelling, etc. > > The Phillips OTV uses passive solar thermal power to run a plasma > engine. > > > --- Bret Kulakovich wrote: > >> >> Greetings, >> >> Not too sure on the launch profile/ops of the Soyuz - is it meant to >> be >> de- and re-pressurized on orbit? It lacks an airlock. If there is a >> problem, we have three *nauts without a way home. >> >> Additionally, a Soyuz may not be "clean" enough to get near Hubble - >> what does it oxidize/use for reaction control and maneuvering? >> Whatever drops off near Hubble, stays with Hubble. >> >> I don't know if there is a lot of prejudice on the idea of what >> vehicle >> to use (Soyuz or not) - if there is a predisposition I would say it >> was >> due to the success of the previous Hubble mission. I'm sure someone, >> somewhere, is also waving the Progress/MIR data around looking >> dismayed >> as well. I also seem to remember something about Columbia being built >> >> to a spec that had Hubble specifically in mind. More than just a >> robot >> arm. Might have been more to do with the original plan of bringing >> Hubble back. >> >> Personally, with the moneys on the way for Crew Exploration Vehicle >> and >> Terrestrial Planet Finder (running out of fingers to cross) I don't >> mind the expense - we have a pile of instruments already built that >> would have been installed by now, that are just sitting Earthside. >> >> >> Bret Kulakovich >> >> On Jan 25, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Technotranscendence wrote: >> >>> I just posted this to >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ and thought >> some >>> of you might want to comment on it. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> From: "Technotranscendence" neptune at superlink.net >>> To: howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 8:05 PM >>> Subject: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission/was Re: [How to build a Space >>> Habitat] Astronomers Shocked by White House Plan not t >>> >>> On Tuesday, January 25, 2005 4:40 PM bestonnet_00 >>> bestonnet_00 at yahoo.com >>> wrote: >>>>>> also don't know why I haven't heard talk of using a >>>>>> Soyuz if it must be a manned repair mission...) >>>>> >>>>> i think a soyuz would be something that NASA would >>>>> never consider. the Russians are already charging >>>>> them to get to the ISS, and this IS an american baby, >>>>> not Russian. in terms of sheer "we need a manned >>>>> spacecraft that can do it", however, a soyuz fits the >>>>> bill. >>>> >>>> Another problem I see with using Soyuz for this is >>>> getting the payload up to the telescope. >>> >>> True. It depends on what the payload is, but the Soyuz can carry >> some >>> cargo, you can use more than one for the mission, and Progress >> cargo >>> ships could be used as well. Imagine this kind of mission: one >> Soyuz >>> with a crew of three and a Progress with whatever's needed. The >>> Progress might be sent up first so that they can be sure it gets >> there >>> before sending any people up. The Soyuz can then meet it and one >> (or >>> two) people can work outside while two (or one) stay on board the >> Soyuz >>> for backup, rescue, and monitoring. (Of course, they might work in >>> shifts, depending on the amount of work.) >>> >>> A few problems with this mission profile: >>> >>> 1. What kind of EVA suits can be used? Will STS ones fit in the >>> Soyuz? >>> >>> 2. Can the Progress carry what's needed and can the crew in EVA >> suits >>> get at cargo in one? (On the ISS, they transfer cargo in >>> shirtsleeves.) >>> >>> 3. Can the Progress be stored on orbit near the Hubble without any >>> problems, such as a collision or it drifting off before the Soyuz >>> arrives? >>> >>> 4. What would the total cost of the mission be? I guess with the >>> Soyuz >>> at around $40 million, the Progress would be a little less, but >> what >>> about the costs of the other equipment, training, etc.? >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Dan >>> See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: >>> http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> > > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 19:00:14 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:00:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <007501c50558$c68541d0$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <20050128190014.68963.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have heard from numerous sources that Germans are more civilised in the 21st century than Americans, but can the same be said for the French? Don't many Frenchmen glorify their recent militaristic past-- i.e. Algeria, Vietnam? Napoleon is a national hero... --- Hubert Mania wrote: > Mike Lorrey fantasized: > > > Ah, the cowardice disguised as principle rears its > head. A pacifist, > > who would stand by as his own spouse and children > were raped and > > murdered merely to stand on 'principle' that one's > own life is more > > important, then blame the rest of society for not > properly bribing the > > criminals to stay away from them. > > Hey, I love this kind of provocation though I don't > know why the hell you > are addressing ME while talking about cowardly > pacifists. It must be that > cultural gap between old europe and the new world. > If I were raised in > violence obsessed usa I guess, we would be best > friends. I remember it was > you, who on the eve of Iraq destruction came up with > that quote comparing > pacifists to fascists or to some similarly dark > horsemen of the apocalypse. > > May I remind you that I am a militant pacifist and > an excellent rifleman as > well. So if you should ever approach my house to > test the stability of a > militant german pacifist, you better watch out, > because I will be > armed with something that hurts american amateur > gunmen. > > By the way, my offer from April 2003 still holds: > just say the word, and > our militant pacifist army will rush over to the usa > on engines that > celebrate the shiny relation between mass, energy > and light(ning) and > liberate your suffering population from the dark > imperator and his ugly > crew. > > humania > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Jan 28 19:36:30 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 11:36:30 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? Message-ID: <1106940990.9039@whirlwind.he.net> > I would guess Sunday, February 13th would be an opportune date for him... I know this would not apply to any of *us*, but Sunday, February 13th is a very popular proxy day for February 14th aka "Valentine's Day" since it falls on a weekend. This might interfere with the ability of some individuals to attend such an event, lest they get beaten senseless by their significant other. j. andrew rogers From hal at finney.org Fri Jan 28 20:15:43 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:15:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Moderation suggestions from Teresa Nielsen Hayden Message-ID: <20050128201543.141C857E2A@finney.org> Found this linked from boingboing.net. It's more oriented towards moderating blog comments but I think many of the points are relevant to email discussion lists as well. http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/006036.html#006036 > Some things I know about moderating conversations in virtual space: > > 1. There can be no ongoing discourse without some degree of moderation, > if only to kill off the hardcore trolls. It takes rather more moderation > than that to create a complex, nuanced, civil discourse. If you want > that to happen, you have to give of yourself. Providing the space but > not tending the conversation is like expecting that your front yard will > automatically turn itself into a garden. > > 2. Once you have a well-established online conversation space, with > enough regulars to explain the local mores to newcomers, they'll do > a lot of the policing themselves. > > 3. You own the space. You host the conversation. You don't own the > community. Respect their needs. For instance, if you're going away for > a while, don't shut down your comment area. Give them an open thread > to play with, so they'll still be there when you get back. > > 4. Message persistence rewards people who write good comments. > > 5. Over-specific rules are an invitation to people who get off on gaming > the system. > > 6. Civil speech and impassioned speech are not opposed and mutually > exclusive sets. Being interesting trumps any amount of conventional > politeness. > > 7. Things to cherish: Your regulars. A sense of community. Real > expertise. Genuine engagement with the subject under > discussion. Outstanding performances. Helping others. Cooperation in > maintenance of a good conversation. Taking the time to teach newbies > the ropes. > > All these things should be rewarded with your attention and praise. And > if you get a particularly good comment, consider adding it to the > original post. > > 8. Grant more lenience to participants who are only part-time jerks, > as long as they're valuable the rest of the time. > > 9. If you judge that a post is offensive, upsetting, or just plain > unpleasant, it's important to get rid of it, or at least make it > hard to read. Do it as quickly as possible. There's no more useless > advice than to tell people to just ignore such things. We can't. We > automatically read what falls under our eyes. > > 10. Another important rule: You can let one jeering, unpleasant jerk hang > around for a while, but the minute you get two or more of them egging > each other on, they both have to go, and all their recent messages with > them. There are others like them prowling the net, looking for just that > kind of situation. More of them will turn up, and they'll encourage > each other to behave more and more outrageously. Kill them quickly and > have no regrets. > > 11. You can't automate intelligence. In theory, systems like > Slashdot's ought to work better than they do. Maintaining a conversation > is a task for human beings. > > 12. Disemvowelling works. Consider it. > > 13. If someone you've disemvowelled comes back and behaves, forgive and > forget their earlier gaffes. You're acting in the service of civility, > not abstract justice. From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Fri Jan 28 20:01:32 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:01:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? Message-ID: <1106942492.22068@whirlwind.he.net> Eliezer wrote: > Also, Spike, I hate to say this, but I've always avoided sushi, so far, > because of concerns about raw fish. Maybe I would eat irradiated sushi. As another sushi-phile, I would say that the risks can be *greatly* mitigated (well below background noise) by going to reputable sushi joints that only serve sushi made from fresh, air-shipped fish. At some very high-end places, everything that can be live *is* live right up until the point that you order it. Frozen and/or unfresh sushi tastes like crap anyway; I do not know how people can eat it. There are certain metric fish that can tell you everything you need to know about a sushi place. The flavor and texture of some fish rapidly degrades in a very linear and predictable way after it dies, such that an experience Sushi Whore(tm) can determine approximately how old the fish is that they are serving. When I go to a new sushi place, I always order a metric fish sashimi first. The quality of that fish determines whether or not I eat any other fish where the freshness is not so easy to determine. cheers, j. andrew rogers From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 20:16:29 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 12:16:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <41FA8A0E.8020407@pobox.com> Message-ID: <200501282016.j0SKGeC26930@tick.javien.com> > Spike, I'm sorry to leave you hanging, but can we defer planning this > event until a later date? Ja, we can leave it open for now. Folks who wish to schmooze and devour some time in the next few weeks, do be thinking of ideas for places to go and times to do it. Let us port the discussion over to ExiBay. spike From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Fri Jan 28 20:50:07 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:50:07 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission Message-ID: <20050128204836.M93661@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> >OTV boosting to higher orbit would be good - but it is my understanding >that the ISS has a cloud around it. Not the neighborhood you'd want to >put your shiny clean telescope in. And try not to leave it in that environment. Shuttles etc. are pretty dirty environments for space astronomy. Amara www.amara.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?1993JSpRo%2E%2E3 0%2E%2E216S&db_key=INST Title: Particle sightings by the infrared telescope on Spacelab 2 Authors: Simpson,?J.?P.; Witteborn,?F.?C.; Graps,?A.; Fazio,?G.?G.; Koch,?D.?G. Affiliation: AA(NASA, Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA), AB(NASA, Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA), AC(NASA, Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA), AD(Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA), AE(NASA, Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA) Journal: Journal of Spacecraft and Rockets (ISSN 0022-4650), vol. 30, no. 2, p. 216-221. Publication Date: 04/1993 Category: Astronautics (General) Origin: STI NASA/STI Keywords: COSMIC DUST, INFRARED TELESCOPES, PARTICLE TELESCOPES, SPACEBORNE TELESCOPES, SPACELAB PAYLOADS, BLACK BODY RADIATION, CHEMICAL COMPOSITION, PARTICLE SIZE DISTRIBUTION, TEMPERATURE DISTRIBUTION Bibliographic Code: 1993JSpRo..30..216S Abstract Part of the objective of the cooled infrared telescope on Spacelab 2 was to determine the particle environment around the Space Shuttle. The telescope scanned the sky in six wavelength bands ranging from 2 to 100 microns with high time resolution. Dust particles could be identified from their particular signature in the data stream. Particle data from about 4 h early in the mission were analyzed in terms of size, color temperature, velocity, and time. The 1100 particles that were seen were slow moving and ranged in color temperature from 190 to 350 K with a few much hotter. The minimum detectable diameter is between 5 and 13 microns, depending on temperature. The size distribution resembles sample distributions collected at a Shuttle preparation facility. Although particle detection rates varied widely with time, no specific events were identified to be associated with particle production. It was not possible to determine the particle composition, although it was probably not ice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-bib_query?bibcode=1988ApL%26 C..27..211K&db_key=AST&high=41fa9aeba616886 Title: Overview of measurements from the infrared telescope on Spacelab 2 Authors: Koch,?D.?G.; Melnick,?G.?J.; Fazio,?G.?G.; Rieke,?G.?H.; Low,?F.?J.; Hoffmann,?W.; Young,?E.?T.; Urban,?E.?W.; Simpson,?J.?P.; Witteborn,?F.?C. Affiliation: AA(Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA), AB(Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA), AC(Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, Cambridge, MA), AD(Steward Observatory, Tucson, AZ), AE(Steward Observatory, Tucson, AZ), AF(Steward Observatory, Tucson, AZ), AG(Steward Observatory, Tucson, AZ), AH(NASA, Marshall Space Flight Center, Huntsville, AL), AI(NASA, Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA), AJ(NASA, Ames Research Center, Moffett Field, CA) Journal: Astrophysical Letters and Communications (ISSN 0888-6512), vol. 27, no. 3, 1988, p. 211-222. Publication Date: 00/1988 Category: Astronomy Origin: STI NASA/STI Keywords: GALACTIC STRUCTURE, INFRARED TELESCOPES, SPACEBORNE TELESCOPES, SPACECRAFT GLOW, SPACELAB PAYLOADS, CRYOGENIC COOLING, INFRARED ASTRONOMY SATELLITE, NOISE MEASUREMENT Bibliographic Code: 1988ApL&C..27..211K Abstract A small helium cooled IR telescope flown on Spacelab-2 in July/August 1985 was used to make infrared measurements between 2 microns and 120 microns. New data were obtained on the structure of the Galaxy at 2 microns and 7 microns showing it to be much broader at these wavelengths than at longer wavelengths. The IR emission due to contamination from the Shuttle was found to be greater than anticipated, indicating the induced environment to be much higher than the planned limits. Aspects of superfluid helium management in zero-G and of a cryogenically cooled telescope design were also tested. From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 28 21:36:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 13:36:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <1106940990.9039@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <200501282136.j0SLacC04527@tick.javien.com> This did occur to me. My sweetheart wishes to take a motorcycle tour down the coast that weekend. March 6 is a very tentative possibility, but we are being asked by the guest of honor to keep it as open as possible, as he is not settled currently. spike > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat- > bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of J. Andrew Rogers > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 11:37 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? > > > I would guess Sunday, February 13th would be an opportune date for > him... > > > I know this would not apply to any of *us*, but Sunday, February 13th is > a very popular proxy day for February 14th aka "Valentine's Day" since > it falls on a weekend. This might interfere with the ability of some > individuals to attend such an event, lest they get beaten senseless by > their significant other. > > > j. andrew rogers From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 28 22:44:10 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:44:10 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] a fishy tale In-Reply-To: <1106942492.22068@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1106942492.22068@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050128164215.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:01 PM 1/28/2005 -0800, James Andrew R. wrote: >When I go to a new sushi place, I always >order a metric fish sashimi first. The quality of that fish determines >whether or not I eat any other fish where the freshness is not so easy >to determine. I tried that once but they only sold their metric fish by the pound, and I was using Australian dollars. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 22:59:52 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 14:59:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <7FCC121B-715D-11D9-94B0-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Message-ID: <20050128225952.2434.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Bret Kulakovich wrote: > > Greetings, > > ISS is @ 51- 52, Hubble is either 28.5 or 32 (?) > > A shuttle doesn't have enough reserves in RCS/OMS to do both. Of course it doesn't. ISS got put where it is so the Russians could launch as much cargo to it as possible from their high latitude sites, while the Hubble is where it is because its allows the most cargo to be lifted there from launches at Cape Canaveral. Since the shuttle isn't going to the Hubble any more, we should either start launching Soyuz from the Cape, or move the shuttles to Siberia, or both. Anyways, my Phillips OTV idea doesn't require the shuttle to go to the Hubble. The OTV can be launched by a Titan or Delta IV or smaller booster, so it would cost ~$10-20 million to launch. If the OTV is built and sitting in a warehouse somewhere, it might be picked up for surplus. Considering they are budgeting $300 million to simply de-orbit the Hubble, it should be profitable to offer to save it for half that. The problem is that the institutions and laboratories want to trash Hubble for the same reason NASA had the plans for the Saturn V burned: they don't want competition, they don't want anybody offering things private for less. They want big budget government projects keeping government scientists employed at public servant salaries and benefits packages for decades. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 23:27:21 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:27:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128190014.68963.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050128232721.18728.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > I have heard from numerous sources that Germans are > more civilised in the 21st century than Americans, but > can the same be said for the French? Don't many > Frenchmen glorify their recent militaristic past-- > i.e. Algeria, Vietnam? Napoleon is a national hero... The 21st century is only 4 years old. Give them a few decades to get their ruffs up some more. It was 43 years between the end of the Franco-German War and the start of WWI. Reunification only happened a decade ago. The fact is the Germans killed as many people in the 20th century, between the two world wars, as Stalin and Mao. Anyone who tries to compare Bush to those three regiemes is being obviously hyperbolic and histrionic. The Japanese are being even more civilized than Germany, but so what? What makes you think that ANY society isn't or is no longer capable of being incredibly savage and inhumane to their fellow man? You watch innocents being beheaded by savages on al Jazeera and you call Bush the fascist? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Fri Jan 28 23:29:56 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 21:29:56 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> That depends on what do you mean by posthumanism, if you were talking about what most people would choose to look like, in, say 500 years, then probably yes, there would be a difference between the human body and the post human. But the definition of posthuman is simply a matter of enhanced human, and it is possible to enhance yourself keeping your external appearence. As most tranhumanist would agree, each person should have his right to not change his appearence, if so he wishes. Diego (Log At) Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 13:47, Ned Late escreveu: > However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, and wouldn't > posthumanism be a rejection of the human body as we know it? > > >Hara Ra wrote: > >But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an extension of > >humanity, not a rejection of the body..... > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 23:30:11 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 15:30:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] a fishy tale In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050128164215.01b55ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050128233011.88815.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 12:01 PM 1/28/2005 -0800, James Andrew R. wrote: > > >When I go to a new sushi place, I always > >order a metric fish sashimi first. The quality of that fish > determines > >whether or not I eat any other fish where the freshness is not so > easy to determine. > > I tried that once but they only sold their metric fish by the pound, > and I was using Australian dollars. Damien, we all know you sell your fish tales by the yard. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From natasha at natasha.cc Sat Jan 29 00:37:15 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 18:37:15 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Globalization: A new Map with A Different Perspective Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050128181815.02089ec0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> I'm not usually one to discuss the military or war, and even 20th Century politics, but this was interesting to me because it opened my eyes to how the government strategies. This article was in "Esquire" magazine March 03. http://www.thomaspmbarnett.com/published/pentagonsnewmap.htm Regardless of anyone's personal views about the war in Iraq, it is important, I think, to understand how our military and government think. The article explains the US military's strategy in regards to a new security paradigm of disconnectedness as equal to danger. It also uses globalization as a new map which marks countries as "Core," the Gap" and the "Seam." These three areas refer to countries and their relationship to connectedness or disconnectedness in the world game. The piece also defends the US's involvement in Iraq or anywhere, for that matter, within the "Gap" locations. The point the author (Brett) is making is that until the Gap regions are connected to the Core regions, they will continue to be terroristic threats to the Core regions. The Seam regions are locations where the terrorists develop their bases and infiltrate the Core. In order to increase the Core's immune system, the US needs to stay connected, even with the Gap. (Thus oil.) The piece also explains that "security" is the US's best export. Natasha Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 29 00:50:13 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 16:50:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] a fishy tale In-Reply-To: <20050128233011.88815.qmail@web30704.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050129005013.32913.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Is mercury in fish common? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jan 29 01:36:42 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:36:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> Given human past tendancies to exterminate those who have some difference in outward appearance it would be best if a poshuman would be like a camelion.... keep a relatively human appearance while in the company of the old-style humans and transhumans in public and adopt a more unique appearance in private. Alternatively generate a hologram to customize outward appearances to the percieved comfort level of the observer. Essentially clothes could be replaced by a hologram to mask more functional body function and body maintence suits. Diego Caleiro wrote: >That depends on what do you mean by posthumanism, if you were talking about >what most people would choose to look like, in, say 500 years, then probably >yes, there would be a difference between the human body and the post human. > >But the definition of posthuman is simply a matter of enhanced human, and it >is possible to enhance yourself keeping your external appearence. As most >tranhumanist would agree, each person should have his right to not change his >appearence, if so he wishes. > >Diego (Log At) > > >Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 13:47, Ned Late escreveu: > > >>However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, and wouldn't >>posthumanism be a rejection of the human body as we know it? >> >> >> >>>Hara Ra wrote: >>>But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an extension of >>>humanity, not a rejection of the body..... >>> >>> >>--------------------------------- >>Do you Yahoo!? >> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! >> >> >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/05 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 29 01:42:34 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2005 17:42:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] a fishy tale In-Reply-To: <20050129005013.32913.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050129014234.19353.qmail@web30702.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > Is mercury in fish common? Depends on which fish. Those at the top of the food chain, and those that live in large alluvial areas, tend to have higher concentrations, particularly with age. Fish in rivers with, or that used to have, significant industrial or mining drainage are also at risk. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Sat Jan 29 05:08:39 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:08:39 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> In a posthuman world, would we really need clothes? suppose that we keep antropomorphic, in this case, the religious beleifs of sin will have died out, and nobody would need to use clothes for this reason... the cold weather would affect us much less, since we could have heat controls in our body, no need for clothing. If we do not choose to be antropomorphic, as most people here say we won't, then we woul be able to change our shape faster then the fashion could create clothes for us.... Diego (Log At) Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 23:36, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. escreveu: > Given human past tendancies to exterminate those who have some > difference in outward appearance it would be best if a poshuman would be > like a camelion.... keep a relatively human appearance while in the > company of the old-style humans and transhumans in public and adopt a > more unique appearance in private. > > Alternatively generate a hologram to customize outward appearances to > the percieved comfort level of the observer. Essentially clothes could > be replaced by a hologram to mask more functional body function and > body maintence suits. > > Diego Caleiro wrote: > >That depends on what do you mean by posthumanism, if you were talking > > about what most people would choose to look like, in, say 500 years, then > > probably yes, there would be a difference between the human body and the > > post human. > > > >But the definition of posthuman is simply a matter of enhanced human, and > > it is possible to enhance yourself keeping your external appearence. As > > most tranhumanist would agree, each person should have his right to not > > change his appearence, if so he wishes. > > > >Diego (Log At) > > > >Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 13:47, Ned Late escreveu: > >>However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, and wouldn't > >>posthumanism be a rejection of the human body as we know it? > >> > >>>Hara Ra wrote: > >>>But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an extension of > >>>humanity, not a rejection of the body..... > >> > >>--------------------------------- > >>Do you Yahoo!? > >> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! > > > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 05:38:40 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:38:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transforming Humans Message-ID: <470a3c5205012821385f21a3d1@mail.gmail.com> TechNewsWorld: William Safire bid farewell to his column at the New York Times this week, but not because he's retiring. Instead, this Pulitzer Prize-winning, former presidential speech writer is moving on to lead an organization concerned with what some call transhumanism. Transhumanism is the advocacy of using life-enhancing technology to improve the human condition. It is a forward-looking philosophy, and savvy proponents spend a good deal of time thinking about the ethics involved in areas such as stem-cell research, genetic engineering, nanotechnology, and neuropharmaceuticals, to name a few. The organization Safire will lead is called Dana, after Charles Dana, a New York State legislator, industrialist and philanthropist. Dana's core areas seem to be brain studies and immunology, but Safire recently wrote that he will also tackle such issues as, "Should we level human height with growth hormones?" and "Is cloning ever morally sound?" America, and indeed the world, is entering a new age where significant advances in bio and nanotechnology might allow humans to live better and longer lives. But they might also change who humans are. Imagine if it becomes possible, as in the film Johnny Mnemonic, to integrate silicon into the brain so that memory is greatly enhanced. The question of whether that person is still human, and whether that matters, will be of utmost import from both a legal and cultural point of view. The time to discuss these questions is now, so it is good to see the issues moving from fringe to mainstream. As Mr. Safire rightly points out, life expectancy for Americans has risen from 47 to 77 over the last century. Moore's law, that computer power doubles every two years, can be now combined with biotech. In the near future, we are all likely to be living much longer lives. http://www.technewsworld.com/story/Transforming-Humans-40103.html From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 05:57:51 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 06:57:51 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <470a3c5205012821573310082f@mail.gmail.com> And at that time, fashion will be about body design rather than clothes. I am for simplicity and understatement, think I will choose a grey cube as body shape. G. On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 03:08:39 -0200, Diego Caleiro wrote: > If we do not choose to be antropomorphic, as most people here say we won't, > then we woul be able to change our shape faster then the fashion could create > clothes for us.... From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 29 09:45:48 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:45:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <20050129093847.M13399@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> A couple of years ago, I read a brilliant book that successfully conveyed what a complex arena is 'history'. The book _Walking Since Daybreak_ by historian Modris Ekstein tells the story of the Baltic countries before, during, and after World War II. He chose Spring 1945 as the (obvious) climax of his story, and through his book we jump in time, forward from the 1850s, backward from the 1990s to reach that fulcrum of enormous devastation and frenzy and the 'nothingness' of Spring 1945. He used personal vignettes of his and other family's lives, to bring our views to something we can understand, and he used particular regions in the Baltics (and Germany) to pinpoint our attention in physical space while the political landscape constantly shifted with the major players in the second World War. When he presents his story, we see that the roles of victims and perpetrators are not very clear at all, and representing historical events, especially of the eye of the storm that was 1945, is ultimately impossible. He shows that to understand what happened in Spring 1945, the story must be told from the perspective of those who survived, resurrecting those who died, so it is told 'from the borders' of a common home of humanity today. The historical story(ies) then becomes an assemblage of fragments, memory, reflection and narrative. Of 'history', Ekstein says: We must accept a variety of histories, but we must also accept variety within our history. It is not possible to write history without preconception. It is possible, however, to write history with layers of suggestion, so that history evokes, history conjoins, it involves. History should provke, not dictate meaning. It should be a vehicle rather than a terminus. Beware of the terrible simplifiers. Of the 1945 paradoxes, Silence and Frenzy, the author writes: Silence. Nothing. Emptiness at the heart of civilization. 'All the poems that sustained me before are as rigid and dead as I am myslf,' wrote a German mother to her children. All the rhymes, all the metaphors, all the harmonies, they meant nothing, or they were lies. Reflection, analysis, and even language itself seemed inadequate, indeed improper, when one was confronted by the magnitude of the horror. The muses had been silenced. Only the second-rate had the courage to speak. Only the mindless claimed to understand. 'Everything was false,' wrote Charlotte Delbo, 'faces and books, everything showed me its falseness and I was in despair at having lost the faculty of dreaming, or harboring illlusions; I was no longer open to imagination, or explanation.' However beyone the corpses, beneath the rubble, there _was_ life, more intense than ever, a human anthill, mad with commotion. A veritable bazaar. People going, coming, pushing, selling, sighing - above all scurrying. Scurrying to survive. Never had so many people been on the move at once. Millions upon millions. Prisoners of war, slave laborers, concentration camp inmates, ex-soldiers, Germans expelled from Eastern Europe, and refugees who had fled the Russian advance - congeries of moving humanity. A frenzy. Apt subjects for Hieronymus Bosch. Be he was nowhere to be found. Probably today what happened at that cataclysm in the middle of the last century cannot be comprehended. The Russian deaths in the 'Great Patriotic War' are thought to have exceeded 27 million. The Germans lost 3.8 million solders killed, and probably an equal number of German civilians died. Another three million solders were captured by the Russians, and of these about one million did not survive. Six million Jews died, and several hundred thousand French, English, American, Canadians, were killed, nd so the list goes on. In that cataclysm, the whole continent of Europe was on the move, the roads of Europe were clogged. A State Department report in June 1945 estimated the total number of refugees in Europe at 33 to 43 million. The Allies faced an enormous problem as hundreds of thousands of refugees fled westward; so the Allies blew up bridges leading west in order to stop the tidal wave of fleeing humanity. Germany became a wasteland. Between 1943 and 1945, the Allies dropped about 1.25 million tons of bombs on German soil, most cities were unrecognizable even to people who had lived there all of their lives. A normalization of horror ensued. What the Allies rained down from the sky invoking fear, the Soviet advance invoked terror: rape, pillage, murder, burn, and rape again. Of the fulcrum of 1945, the author says: The number of human beings who died in this conflict was staggering enough, but something else was gravely wounded: the entire Enlightenment tradition. It could not, contrary to some assertions, emerge from the war strengthened. As T.S. Eliot put it, Germany and Japan, 'these two aggressive nations, ... did but bring to a head a malady with which the world was already infected; and their collapse only leaves the world with the disease in every part of its body'. [...] Before we can move forward, we must come to some kind of terms with 1945, with what it represents. A start would be the recognition that 1945, with its devastation, displacement, and horror, was the result not just of a few madmen and their befuddled followers, not just of 'others,' but of humanity as a whole and of our culture as a whole. Nineteen forty-five is not our victory, as we often like to think; 1945 is our problem. Amara From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 29 13:15:30 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:15:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] are we awake yet? (was: is America fascist yet?) Message-ID: <20050129131422.M61132@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Ned Late: >I have heard from numerous sources that Germans are >more civilised in the 21st century than Americans, but >can the same be said for the French? Don't many >Frenchmen glorify their recent militaristic past-- >i.e. Algeria, Vietnam? Napoleon is a national hero... I suggest to go to France and see. Have you ever stepped ouside of your village? Amara From bret at bonfireproductions.com Sat Jan 29 14:26:27 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:26:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <01c401c503f0$9eb4a380$5b893cd1@pavilion> References: <00cc01c50344$1a3a1240$3b893cd1@pavilion> <56B5068C-6FCB-11D9-918A-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> <01c401c503f0$9eb4a380$5b893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2005, at 4:47 PM, Technotranscendence wrote: > >> I don't mind the expense - we have a pile of >> instruments already built that would have been >> installed by now, that are just sitting Earthside. > > That's typical of many space enthusiasts: no concern with costs. I > think such an attitude partly causes so little to get done. Aha! - but if this was a typical space enthusiast without concern for cost, I would rebuttle with the expense of various other programs that cost far more e.g. war, social security, etc. =) I did not say I was not concerned - but that I didn't mind. Because the hardware upgrades that the taxpayers have already paid for are sitting around on the ground being expensive. It's not like we can take a Hubble component down to Chile and use it in the new telescopes there instead. Enjoy, Bret Kulakovich > Cheers! > > Dan > See "Ust Contra Tebye" at: > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye1.html > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jan 29 16:26:30 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 10:26:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <41FBB936.3050402@sasktel.net> As in the days of cro-magnon and other human varients , different when different phenotypes existed at the same time similar is likely during transhuman evolution into posthumanity.. Different religeons have resulted in mass exterminations and wars and the movie lore is full of human massacres of non-humans we would be best advised not to simply trot out in our posthumanity and expect the masses of humanity to welcome their future. So the illusion of conformity in body appearance either physically or by hologram would be wise. The subject of a strategy to promote peaceful co-existance between those who refute human enhancement and those actively pursue its development is useful even now. Now, when transhumanism is most vulnerable to being suppressed it would be wise to develop a proactive strategy. Melding societal support functions into inate body parts to replace or enhance clothes, temperature sensitivity, sound and light sensitivity would lead to a much lower consumption per capita of energy resources for simple human survival. This in part is an answer to the energy shortfall problem and the bioresource consumption spiral. Diversion of societal resources into a new energy conservation phenomenon, a low consumption human might be a good sales feature of transhuman and posthuman technology development. Diego Caleiro wrote: > In a posthuman world, would we really need clothes? > >suppose that we keep antropomorphic, in this case, the religious beleifs of >sin will have died out, and nobody would need to use clothes for this >reason... the cold weather would affect us much less, since we could have >heat controls in our body, no need for clothing. > >If we do not choose to be antropomorphic, as most people here say we won't, >then we woul be able to change our shape faster then the fashion could create >clothes for us.... > >Diego (Log At) > > > >Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 23:36, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. escreveu: > > >>Given human past tendancies to exterminate those who have some >>difference in outward appearance it would be best if a poshuman would be >>like a camelion.... keep a relatively human appearance while in the >>company of the old-style humans and transhumans in public and adopt a >>more unique appearance in private. >> >>Alternatively generate a hologram to customize outward appearances to >>the percieved comfort level of the observer. Essentially clothes could >>be replaced by a hologram to mask more functional body function and >>body maintence suits. >> >>Diego Caleiro wrote: >> >> >>>That depends on what do you mean by posthumanism, if you were talking >>>about what most people would choose to look like, in, say 500 years, then >>>probably yes, there would be a difference between the human body and the >>>post human. >>> >>>But the definition of posthuman is simply a matter of enhanced human, and >>>it is possible to enhance yourself keeping your external appearence. As >>>most tranhumanist would agree, each person should have his right to not >>>change his appearence, if so he wishes. >>> >>> >>> >>> > > From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jan 29 17:53:00 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:53:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <41FBB936.3050402@sasktel.net> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FBB936.3050402@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <41FBCD7C.8070901@sasktel.net> This strategy would confer on transhumans and posthumans a readily recognizeable evolutionary advantage. It could be sold as a solution to increasing the quality of life while tying up fewer resources. The almost total allocation of industrial and agricultural activity to maintaining human existance , and military resources to territorialism is no longer acceptable. It has left the globe with an unstable food supply situation; which is a greater threat to the extinction of modern humanity than nuclear or bio threats. When food reserves rely on a functioning global energy transfer network and in reality would become depleted in months if a broad based global crisis occurred , society has puts itself at great exposure for pre-singularity extinction. A low maintainace human requiring far less for clothes , housing, and food inputs is complementary to justification for allocation of resouces towards life extension for these bio-types. Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > > Melding societal support functions into inate body parts to replace or > enhance clothes, temperature sensitivity, sound and light sensitivity > would lead to a much lower consumption per capita of energy resources > for simple human survival. > > This in part is an answer to the energy shortfall problem and the > bioresource consumption spiral. > > Diversion of societal resources into a new energy conservation > phenomenon, a low consumption human might be a > good sales feature of transhuman and posthuman technology development. > From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 29 17:59:30 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:59:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205012821573310082f@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <470a3c5205012821573310082f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050129175929.GW1404@leitl.org> On Sat, Jan 29, 2005 at 06:57:51AM +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > And at that time, fashion will be about body design rather than clothes. > I am for simplicity and understatement, think I will choose a grey > cube as body shape. Depending on how efficient the others will force you to be you have less and less choice about your physical architecture. Somewhat weaker, this also applies to entity interaction, aka signalling and computing. As long as computational physics as we know it rules over it all, of course. Rendering an artifical reality, even strongly modified artificial reality is something what human primates would do. There's every reason to suspect that native or human-derived systems will be completely insignificant, soon after evolution speed starts to soar. What this means is that conservativism will get you killed, or your bubbles of meaning get trapped in the sea of incomprehensible. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 29 21:08:13 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 14:08:13 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Knowingness Message-ID: <41FBFB3D.4144307F@mindspring.com> A discussions of Israel, anti-Semitism (real or imagined), and Middle East politics on another list a few years ago made me think about an attitude I call "knowingness." I'm also often reminded of "knowingness" when I hear or read about so-called "political correctness." This "knowingness" was hinted at, though not really discussed in depth, in a 1951 article by sociologist David Rieman on American attitudes toward Jews that I posted in the course of that discussion on that list. I would like to examine this concept of "knowingness," and how it affects (or afflicts) social & political discussions--in areas going far beyond just attitudes specifically toward Israel or the Jews. _Webster's Third New International Dictionary_ defines "knowingness" as "the quality or state of being knowing," citing a phrase attributed to one C.J. Rolo, "the brisk knowingness of a competent journalist." It defines "knowing" in turn as "having or reflecting the keen awareness and insight and power of discernment typical of the specialist or expert: highly perceptive esp. in a specialized or exclusive field," as in "a knowing collector of rare books," but also as "that indicates and is marked by awareness of and careful conformity to what is chic and currently in style" (synonym: SMART) and also as "marked by sophistication or snobbishness"--for which _Webster's Third International_ cites Sir Herbert Read, "a distasteful air of pretentious smartness, of being altogether too knowing." _Webster's Third International_ also defines "knowing," moreover, as "that reflects or is designed to indicate possession of confidential, secret, or otherwise exclusive inside knowledge or information," as in Louis Bromfield's "poised her fork and gave her guest a knowing look." Similarly, _Webster's_ defines it as"that indicates an insight or awareness not generally shared," as in William Makepeace Thackeray's "the two young officers exchanged knowing glances." My own understanding of "knowing" and "knowingness" has always been in the senses of "awareness of and careful conformity to what is chic and currently in style,""marked by sophistication or snobbishness,""a distasteful air of pretentious smartness, of being altogether too knowing," and "possession of confidential, secret, or otherwise exclusive inside knowledge or information." I see "knowingness," in the sense I see it as applying to social and political attitudes, as an attitude somewhat related to both cynicism and "machismo" though not quite identical to them. It's an attitude or mind-set hinted at though not explicitly described in the discussion I posted a few years ago on the four levels of American talk about Jews from David Riesman's 1951 _Commentary_ article on "The 'militant' Fight Against Anti-Semitism," reprinted in his 1954 book _Individualism Reconsidered and Other Essays_ [David Riesman, "The 'Militant' Fight Against Anti-Semitism," from _Commentary_, 11:11-19 (1951), on pp.139-152, David Riesman, _Individualism Reconsidered and Other Essays_ (Glencoe, IL: The Free Press, 1954), pp. 145-147] In his article, Riesman began with the thoughtful "top level" of the "intellectual and artistic circles, of Jews and non-Jews, where there is at the same time curiosity and matter-of-factness about things Jewish." (David Riesman, "The 'Militant' Fight Against Anti-Semitism," _Individualism Reconsidered and Other Essays_ , p. 145). He then discussed the "politically correct (as we would now say) philo-Semitic "piety" of his "second level" of American talk about the Jews, and the "tough" pose of the "terribly dashing and bold and 'militant'." rebels against such "piety." Riesman's "second level" was that of "the liberal middle class, both Jewish and non-Jewish," the "class" responsible for public service advertisements and posters about "brotherhood." Its "chief quality" was "a kind of dreary piety, filled with platitudes about unity, amity, democracy, and so on." In "obedient circles" in churches, schools, and voluntary and civic associations, it tended "to stultify observation and thought." On the other hand, it also enabled "those rebellious souls who refuse to subscribe to it" to" appear as terribly dashing and bold and 'militant'" with a pose of "toughness" (Riesman, pp. 145-146). Riesman also described (pp. 146-147) an openly bigoted "fourth level"of discourse, located "primarily in the working class, but with ramifications in the lower-middle-class," among people with "little opportunity to express their own attitudes except through conversation--on the workbench, in the bar, on the street corner." The "walls of toilets" were their main or only "medium of publication." These "toilet walls," Riesman felt, were "the distorted reflection of--and rebellion against--middle-class piety in respect to the two things, race and sex, that so many in America find both indecent and alluring." If this level was "reached at all by the propaganda of the dreary pietists," Riesman feared, the "principal effect" might only be "to make Jews even more mysterious than before--and official culture more mendacious and mealy-mouthed." Working-class anti-Semitism was "very strong indeed," Riesman judged from "recent" (as of 1951) studies of prejudice sponsored by the Scientific Department of the American Jewish Committee. "Whether much of it is anti-Semitism that yearns for action or just big talk and griping, " Riesman did not profess to know. The third of Riesman's four levels, by the way, was what he called (p. 146) the "Catskill-Broadway plane" of "a form of culture spread throughout America by the press, film, and radio." It began, he thought, with _Abie's Irish Rose_, followed more recently by Danny Kaye, the Goldbergs, Eddie Cantor, Billy Rose, Milton Berle, and Walter Winchell, continually "exploit[ing] aspects of Jewish life and Jewish character" in American popular entertainment. Riesman, I think, here put his finger on, without quite explicitly naming or describing, an important factor in much discussion of contentious, emotion-charged social and political issues. It's the factor I call "knowingness," after the definitions of "knowing" and "knowingness" I've quoted from _Webster's_, for lack of any better or more "scientific" name. I use it in the senses given by _Webster's_ of "awareness of and careful conformity to what is chic and currently in style,""marked by sophistication or snobbishness,""a distasteful air of pretentious smartness, of being altogether too knowing,"and "possession of confidential, secret, or otherwise exclusive inside knowledge or information." It is a quality or attitude that I've learned to isolate as a definite factor over the years because I myself seem to be a bit "tone-deaf," "color-blind," or "developmentally challenged" with respect to it, and have been ridiculed, teased, rebuked, and "put down" all my life for my own lack of it by those who seem to revel in flaunting it and considering me somehow defective or "out of it" for lacking it! It's something I've learned to identify, isolate, and name because, quite frankly, I personally consider it very much a piece of "enemy culture." If I myself had not been mercilessly "put down" all my life because of my own lack of it, I might have never even learned to notice it as a "problem." I myself certainly consider it very much a "distasteful air"! "Knowingness," as I call it, is a cocksure, supercilious attitude of "knowing the score" by virtue of one's "hard-knocks" experience, wide travels, or "familiarity with men and things," in scornful dismissive opposition to "book-learning," "theory," and "idealism." It is fundamentally anti-intellectual, and anti-idealistic. It scornfully dismisses any humane insights gained from one's reading in the literary, philosophic, and ethical traditions and historical, sociological, and scientific discourses of the Western world. The eminent English philosopher Alfred North Whitehead (1861-1947), himself one of the most erudite, bookish, speculative, and metaphysical highbrow intellectuals of the 20th century, expressed the "knowingness" critique of "book-larnin'" and "theory" in an exceptionally gentle, genial, and amicable fashion in his discussion of "Youth" in Chapter XX, "Peace," of _Adventures of Ideas_ (New York: Macmillan, 1933), p. 370: <> Typically, however, "knowingness" with its deprecation of "literature" and "language" is expressed in a far more harshly contemptuous or archly dismissive tone than Whitehead's, far less amicable and sweetly-reasonable than that philosopher's. Typically, "knowingness" revels in either an "Archie Bunkerish," "Joe Six-Pack" barroom-proletarian working-class or an arch, precious drawing-room upper-middle-class or pseudo-aristocratic endorsement of traditional national, ethnic, and religious stereotypes. It sanctifies a snide, arch, superior, "oh, don't be so na?ve and sentimental!," "isn't your virtuous well-meaning political correctness so dull and boring?," "we know better, don't we?" put-down of humane, inclusive, peaceful, anti-racist ideals, whether Judaeo-Christian, secular, Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist. Ultimately, "knowingness" is a fundamental rejection alike of Christian and Jewish moral ideals, American democratic ideals, and Enlightenment & post-Enlightenment liberal, democratic-socialist, and "secular humanist" ideals. As I've said, "knowingness" has both working-class and upper-class, both barroom and drawing-room, both "Joe Six-Pack" and country-club wings. However, in both its "sports-bar" and its "debutante-ball" wings, among both its "trailer-park" and its "preppie" devotees, it expresses a fear and resentment alike of religion and intellect, of spirit and reason. It excuses and blesses the harassment and put-down of gentle, un-"macho" souls, of so-called "geeks" and "nerds," of the "clumsy, awkward kids with glasses," of the serious grade-school, high-school, or college students, of the dreamers and idealists. It ratifies and sanctifies the harassment, ridicule, and put-down of the (allegedly) "impractical," "dreamy," "idealistic," or "ivory-tower" types by their more "practical," "real-world," "brass-tacks," "feet on the ground," "hard knocks" classmates, neighbors, and colleagues. I can confidently speak here from first-hand "hard-knocks" experience from my own childhood and school days, as well as from many years of working in a rather anti-intellectual library where I was continually "put down" as a head-in-the-clouds scholarly bookworm who read eight languages but had trouble (and totally hated!) unjamming the copy machine or straightening tangled microfilm rolls! "Knowingness," ultimately, is a tragic by-product of the social, economic, and cultural changes of the last few centuries. The explosive growth of scientific, scholarly, and historical knowledge, the development of very specialized advanced technologies, the growth and elaboration of formal elementary, secondary, and higher education, and the industrial capitalist distinction of "workers" and "bourgeoisie" have all lead to a widespread compensatory "backlash" distrust and resentment of formal education, "book-learning," and "official" idealism by people from all social classes who feel "left out" or "left behind." The "left out" and "left behind" include the poor and the working classes, and literary humanists and "country club" types "left behind" by scientists, sociologists, and social reformers. They include old-fashioned parents both rich and poor "left behind" by their children exposed in school and college to evolution, "secular humanism," religious tolerance, "politically correct" ethnic & racial amity and "brotherhood," "permissive" sexual mores, and inter-ethnic dating. Parents feel "left out" and "left behind" when their children come home from school with a boy-friend or girl-friend from a "wrong" ethnic or religious background, and start "talking back" to their dinner-table grumblings about the Blacks, Jews, gays,"draft-dodgers," or"peaceniks." All such people learn to resent and distrust "book-learning," scholarship, history, science, humane liberal idealism, religious and ethnic tolerance, and formal thought (as opposed to cynical folkish "saws" of the "you can't fight city hall," "nothing is sure but death and taxes," "boys will be boys" type) as "the enemy" and "the Devil." "Knowingness" is the left-behinds' panicky refuge against a dizzily changing modern world, where even their own children and even the priests, pastors, or bishops of their own churches seem to be abandoning the old prejudices and the old certainties. It is the defensive last hurrah of both the barroom and the drawing-room, of both the trailer-camp and the country-club, against the heresies and skepticisms of the classroom, the library, the pulpit, and the picket-line. It is an attempt to hold on to the old prejudices, whether proletarian or preppie, by claiming that through one's "hard knocks" experience or wide travels one has learned inconvenient, unpleasant, "politically incorrect" facts about various groups of people that academics, the "respectable" media, and starry-eyed "why can't all the world's children dance together" idealists have ignored or covered up. It's a way to be dismissively "one up" against people who "only" have academic or scholarly knowledge but supposedly lack "street smarts" or drawing-room "man of the world" savoir-faire. It's a way of asserting that knowledge outside formal academic education and scholarly discourse does have a value, after all. About that last point, by the way, I'd say that non-academic knowledge can indeed have real value and validity--but that a grumbling or airy dismissal of formal knowledge is not the right way to assert it! Peace, T. Peter David Riesman, "The 'Militant' Fight Against Anti-Semitism," from _Commentary_, 11:11-19 (1951), pp.139-152, reprinted in David Riesman, _Individualism Reconsidered and Other Essays_ (Glencoe, IL: The Free Press, 1954), pp. 145-147: At present we may distinguish four levels of talk about Jews in America, four levels that hardly mix or meet. At the top level are the intellectual and artistic circles, of Jews and non-Jews, where there is at the same time curiosity and matter-of-factness about things Jewish. The pages of _Commentary_ are an excellent illustration of this kind of discussion. There one finds reporting on Jewish life without a fearful concern for public relations; philosophic and sociological debate about what, if anything, it means to be a Jew; and, in the department "From the American Scene," occasional pictures of the fabulously interesting, rich, and varied life of Jews in America. On this level, one can also find literature that is not a tract against anti-Semitism but an exploration of Jewish consciousness and unconsciousness; there comes to mind Saul Bellow's fine novel, _The Victim_. Our second level of discussion is the liberal middle class, both Jewish and non-Jewish, the class responsible for putting car cards about brotherhood in the New York subways. A friend of mine claims to have heard a radio jingle over a New York station, "He's no Jew, he's like you." I suspect him of satire. But if it didn't actually happen it might well have, given the notion of "defense" prevailing in many advertising minds. It is here that a mythical world is constructed in which Negroes and whites, Jews and non-Jews--and, for that matter, men and women, are "really" alike; such differences as there still are, being expected to wither away like the Marxist state. On this level Jews fail to see that it is their very difference which may be both worthwhile and appealing. This insistence on denying differences, or on seeking to eradicate them, identifies "American" with "Americanization"--and insists that for people to be treated as equals they must have more than their humanity in common. The chief quality I sense in discussion about Jews on this second level is piety, a kind of dreary piety, filled with platitudes about unity, amity, democracy, and so on. This piety, it seems to me, as it spreads throughout "official" culture, throughout our churches, schools, and [pp. 145/146] many voluntary associations, has two consequences. On the one hand, in the obedient circles it tends to stultify observation and thought. On the other hand, it enables those rebellious souls who refuse to subscribe to it to appear as terribly dashing and bold and "militant." The violent anti-Semites and those Jews who throw eggs at Bevin [Ernest Bevin (1881-1951), British Labour politician, Clement Attlee's Foreign Secretary 1945-1950, unsuccessful advocate in 1947-1948 of a federal Jewish-Arab nation rejected by both Jewish and Arab zealots--TPP], both achieve an easy victory for their image of the Jew over the official picture. Just this appearance of toughness is, I think, one of the great attractions of the Chicago _Tribune_ and even more of the New York _Daily News_: such organs appear to monopolize daring and impiety. [In more recent times, this tough, "piety"-free, "terribly dashing and bold and 'militant,'" "politically incorrect" attitude has been expressed by supermarket tabloids, Rush Limbaugh, Bob Grant, Matt Drudge, Sean Hannity, and Ann Coulter, among others, in general politics and culture, though they HAVEN'T discussed the "Jewish question" aside from automatic support for Israel--TPP] The only way to combat this is by open and honest discussion about Jews, to make people aware that Jews are real, and to make an effort to talk about them as they are. The third level of discourse about Jews is on what we might call the Catskill-Broadway plane, in which there thrives a form of culture spread throughout America by the press, film, and radio. Perhaps we find its beginnings in _Abie's Irish Rose_. Danny Kaye, the Goldbergs, Eddie Cantor, Billy Rose--day by day and night after night they exploit aspects of Jewish life and Jewish character. [since 1951 when Riesman wrote the essay, we could add to this list Sam Levinson, Harry Golden, Lenny Bruce, _Exodus_, _Fiddler on the Roof_, Woody Allen, Barbra Streisand, Jerry Seinfeld, etc.--TPP] Many non-Jewish comedians play the same circuit; perhaps they have Jewish gag-writers. I wish I knew what Billy Rose's readers in Dubuque and Dallas, Charleston and Seattle, have made of his accounts of life and love at Lindy's, and I wish I knew what America makes of Milton Berle. Does this add to that identification of Jews with big-city life which--as Arnold Rose has observed--is so powerful an element in modern Anti-Semitism? Do the lower-middle-class non-Jewish audiences of this Catskill culture have personal contacts with Jews of their own and other social levels, or is their only "contact" through these images of stage and screen? What is the attitude of these audiences toward the Jewish comic or, for that matter, the Jewish Winchell--are these performers patronized as something exotic and foreign? Are they felt to be Jews at all? I expect we would find a good deal of ambivalence, a mixture of emotions, both towards the performer and the aspect of Jewish culture that he symbolizes. The same listener, for instance, may both despise and be fascinated by Winchell. I would like to know a lot more about this whole area for the sake of the light it would shed on both the myths of the Americans and the myths of and about the Jews. The fourth level of discussion about Jews I would locate primarily in the working class, but with ramifications in the lower-middle-class. These people have little opportunity to express their own attitudes except through conversation--on the workbench, in the bar, on the street corner. The only medium of publication available [pp. 146/147] is the walls of toilets. Even apart from the question of interstate commerce, group-libel laws--such as those being pushed by the Commission on Law and Social Action of the American Jewish Congress--can hardly be effective here! These toilet walls, indeed, are the distorted reflection of--and rebellion against--middle-class piety in respect to the two things, race and sex, that so many in America find both indecent and alluring. If this level is reached at all by the propaganda of the dreary pietists, the principal effect might be only to make Jews even more mysterious than before--and official culture more mendacious and mealy-mouthed. Working-class anti-Semitism is very strong indeed, if I may judge from recent studies of prejudice conducted under the auspices of the Scientific Department of the American Jewish Committee [Theodor W. Adorno, Else Frenkel-Brunswik et al., _The Authoritarian Personality_ (New York: American Jewish Committee/Harper & Row, 1950)]. Whether much of it is anti-Semitism that yearns for action or just big talk and griping, I do not know.... -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From nedlt at yahoo.com Sun Jan 30 00:53:13 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 16:53:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] are we awake yet? (was: is America fascist yet?) In-Reply-To: <20050129131422.M61132@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <20050130005313.43022.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I went to Belgium, and the residents I met were no kinder & friendlier than Americans-- which isn't saying much, is it? Ned Late: >I have heard from numerous sources that Germans are >more civilised in the 21st century than Americans, but >can the same be said for the French? Don't many >Frenchmen glorify their recent militaristic past-- >i.e. Algeria, Vietnam? Napoleon is a national hero... I suggest to go to France and see. Have you ever stepped ouside of your village? Amara _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Jan 30 03:04:04 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:04:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128232721.18728.qmail@web30706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050128190014.68963.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050129203404.03496d60@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 03:27 PM 28/01/05 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: snip >What makes you think that ANY society isn't or is no longer capable of >being incredibly savage and inhumane to their fellow man? Under the right conditions, any society can turn vicious. So what are those conditions? Since the thesis of modern evolutionary biology is that all physical and behavioral traits were either directly selected or are a side effect of some trait that was selected, a restatement is: what recurrent situations in the environment of evolutionary adaption (millions of years as hunter gatherers) selected the human traits that in historical times are exemplified by WWII? Or Rwanda. Or Easter Island? >You watch >innocents being beheaded by savages on al Jazeera and you call Bush the >fascist? Yes. But what Bush is doing is more like the war leader of a tribe of hominids a million years ago. Responding viciously to an attack (9/11) is what one little hunter gatherer band did to another. Since fighting in the EEA was (half of the time) suicidal self sacrifice, where the interests of the genes and the person diverged, genes built psychological mechanisms that shut off rational thinking when activated by war or the need for war. Thus it isn't hard for an attacked tribe to work themselves up to attack a third tribe that had nothing to do with the original attack. Of course the third tribe can be expected to fight back viciously. In the old days this was what ultimately kept the population in check. So what makes for an unprovoked attack? In the olden days it was running out of game and berries because the tribe had expanded and eaten them all. Now we probably map anticipation of a bleak future into triggering the psychological mechanisms that lead to wars. The whole thing is profoundly depressing. Keith Henson From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Jan 30 03:19:23 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 19:19:23 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - is America fascist yet?] References: <200501281835.j0SIZgC13150@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <090d01c5067a$80330050$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "spike" > If I had the authority to kill a thread, I would kill this one. > > Guys, do knock this off, forthwith. Well, sorry - but at least I'm trying to change the inclination somewhat with this article (alas, it's still about fascism). And - get this - it's from Harry Browne (a Libertarian Party presidential candidate from not too long ago). I find it devastating. "And when you've sacrificed your life, it no longer matters whether Iraq is "liberated" or oppressed, because you don't exist any more. It no longer matters whether George Bush is a great leader or a megalomaniac, because you no longer have a life with which to be affected by it. You are no more.": http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/ObsessionWithWar.htm Olga From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Jan 30 03:21:22 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:21:22 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <20050129093847.M13399@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050129221503.033666e0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 10:45 AM 29/01/05 +0100, Amara (one of my favorite people) wrote: >A couple of years ago, I read a brilliant book that successfully >conveyed what a complex arena is 'history'. The book _Walking >Since Daybreak_ by historian Modris Ekstein tells the story of >the Baltic countries before, during, and after World War II. He >chose Spring 1945 as the (obvious) climax of his story, snip >Before we can move forward, we must come to some kind of terms >with 1945, with what it represents. A start would be the >recognition that 1945, with its devastation, displacement, and >horror, was the result not just of a few madmen and their >befuddled followers, not just of 'others,' but of humanity as a >whole Bingo. The result of psychological traits that evolved during the long period of the stone age. >and of our culture as a whole. Since wars seem to be a feature of all cultures, he must have been talking "culture" in the generic sense. I actually don't think culture has much to do with why we have wars. >Nineteen forty-five is not >our victory, as we often like to think; 1945 is our problem. And *why* hasn't there been another major war in Europe in the last 60 years? I think I know why. What are your suggestions? Keith Henson From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 30 05:08:05 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2005 21:08:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - is Americafascist yet?] In-Reply-To: <090d01c5067a$80330050$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <200501300508.j0U58JC06305@tick.javien.com> > Olga Bourlin > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - is > Americafascist yet?] > > From: "spike" > > If I had the authority to kill a thread, I would kill this one. > > Guys, do knock this off, forthwith. > > Well, sorry - but at least I'm trying to change the inclination somewhat > with this article (alas, it's still about fascism)... Olga, it is not a problem to discuss fascism; rather it was the guys threatening each other that was bothering me. Some day we might unlock the secret that stops aging. In that case we need to treat each other well, for we might be together a long time. {8^] That being said, I see no problem with tossing around labels, whatever is the disreputable du-jour: fascist, nazi, taliban, blue-stater, red-stater, whatever. In every society, one can find aspects that can earn that society any or all of these labels, yet it doesn't make the observation any more meaningful. That list that was on the fascist_yet website, can we not find examples of *all* of these in every nation on earth? Which society doesn't have all of them? Lets move there! Assuming the standard of proof offered by the fascist_yet website, all we need to do for the criterion of rampant corruption and cronyism is to offer a picture of the vice president. That was easy! Meaningless as hell, but easy. We can debate whether the U.S. is more or less fascist than fill-in-the-blank, but what of it? What does the label really mean? Nada! Even the classic kind-and-gentle places such as Canada and Finland have these things listed on fascist_yet. The important thing is that we each have the freedom to make our lives what we want them to be. By that criterion, I would say the U.S. is a pretty good place to do that, altho I would like to see the U.S. government do a far better job of getting its grubby paws off of my portemonne. spike From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 06:24:14 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:24:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Slate: Brain Scans for Sale Message-ID: <470a3c520501292224ba48b5d@mail.gmail.com> Slate: As brain imaging spreads to nonmedical uses, will commerce overtake ethics? - The brain-imaging technology developed over the past three decades - first positron emission tomography, or PET, and more recently the faster, simpler functional magnetic resonance imaging known as fMRI - has given neuroscience a tool of unprecedented power. By tracing blood flow associated with neuronal activity, scanning methods enable researchers to see how different regions of the brain activate as a person thinks or acts. A subject, lying in a scanner, completes mental tasks or responds to various stimuli - solving a simple word puzzle, say, or a more complex task like characterizing facial expressions. As the subject works, the scanner tracks changes in blood flow to create images showing distinctive patterns of neuronal activation. The result is a visual representation of the "neural correlates" of various mental states. Neurologists stress that cognitive neuroscience is still young, its tools too rough and knowledge too patchy to predict behavior and diagnose personality. Even fMRI, the finest-grained tool, cannot capture events at the minute scale and lightning speed of the neuron... some entrepreneurs and researchers are carrying brain imaging into new, nonmedical territory that could be ethically treacherous. Some of these uses, such as lie detection, are already upon us; others, such as the use of brain scans to screen job applicants, seem almost certain to be explored or developed. http://slate.msn.com/id/2112653/#ContinueArticle From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 06:40:36 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 07:40:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Movie: Aliens of the Deep Message-ID: <470a3c5205012922404f74f24b@mail.gmail.com> NYT: "Aliens of the Deep," is a grandiose hybrid of undersea documentary and outer-space fantasy that begins on our planet's ocean floor and ends many miles under the ice crust that covers Europa, the second moon of Jupiter. The movie's sneaky transition from undersea documentary to speculative fantasy of a journey yet to be undertaken is so seamless that you could easily mistake the last part for the record of an actual space voyage. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/28/movies/28alie.html?ex=1264741200&en=aa006babf6537bb3&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 30 08:08:08 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:08:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Keith Henson, Hi! (and thanks for your nice words) >And *why* hasn't there been another major war in Europe in >the last 60 years? >I think I know why. >What are your suggestions? I don't have a theory to test, only some thoughts after many conversations with my family and the people arouund me and living in Europe now ~7 years. Hubert Mania filled in for me some of the holes of German perspectives (since WWII) that I didn't understand yet, as well. (Extropes, consider for a moment _why_ he is so sensitive regarding facism; his salvos, then, might be easier to understand, moreover, might actually be _useful_.) I think that the horrors of WWII (events leading to, during, and after) reached so deep into the consciousness of those people who experienced it (directly, indirectly), that one psychologically, unconsciously, needed to perform a kind of cauterization to stop oneself from going mad. At first glimpse, the psychological effect looks like when you burn yourself on the stovetop, it is enough to teach you to jerk your hand away when you are close to the flame again. In this situation of what humans faced in WWII, I think it is much more. You are familiar with some ideas of Jung of the shadow-self? We are most upset by those aspects that we recognize in ourselves and our impulse is to reject it, sometimes violently. I think that it was numbing to see the 'beast-within' expressed to the magntitude that was expressed in WWII. Probably it rendered psychologically mute a layer of people closest to the ground zero of the horror, the next layer closest could maybe express a bit more, and so on. In any case, if faced with something approaching that kind of horror, you did whatever it took to not be there again, war-avoidance, to the extreme. Now you, being the meme-guy, probably have a meme-explanation, yes? Maybe those people carrying the meme-of-great-beastliness usually died, and left those carrying memes-of-less-beastliness survived and reproduced? Amara From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 30 09:26:45 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:26:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128023320.66081.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050128023320.66081.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <31d7f2e1d87458ca3880550f93476ff6@mac.com> I don't see the logic. How can any outcome of that farcical event say anything relevant about how fascist the US is or is not? Even the most miraculous outcome would not change the nature of our government. -s On Jan 27, 2005, at 6:33 PM, Ned Late wrote: > Let's give the coming Iraq election-- and those Iraqi > elections coming afterwards-- a chance, before we call > the current administration fascist. If Iraq eventually > succeeds in transforming into a democracy then the > Bush administration wins and will not be remembered as > fascist. > The victors write the history books. If the Axis had > won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice and reading in > German how Hitler vanquished Communism 60 years ago. > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 30 09:40:26 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:40:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> Message-ID: <2c6ca98111c9c3a70fdf27bc7c51bcd8@mac.com> It sure as hell isn't preemptive war. Do you believe the US and thus the citizens of the US, their fortunes, lives and those of their children are owed to the suffering of every people on earth? Do you further believe that the "cure" takes the form of preemptive strikes? if not then what is the point of your question? Do you believe endless war serves up maximum extropy? -s On Jan 28, 2005, at 12:09 AM, Erik Starck wrote: > > On 2005-01-28 humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) wrote: >> My point of view is: if anybody here on the list does explicitely >> support >> the politics of preemptive wars, no matter what the name of the >> present us >> president is, she or he can be no transhumanist, as I do understand >> transhumanism. I am no extropian, I am no member of the wta, I am a >> single >> independent transhumanist with my very own measures of reason, >> anarchy, >> feelings, irrationalisms, anger and contempt towards anybody who >> still >> applauds any action of the bush administration after Abu Ghraib and >> Falluja. > > Right now there is an ongoing genoicide in Sudan: > http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/01/27/sudan.us/ > famine under dictatorship in North Korea: > http://www.wfp.org/country_brief/indexcountry.asp?country=408 > and civil war in disaster-struck Sri Lanka: > http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=27174 > Just to name a few of the places where people of the world are being > killed right now as we speak. > > What is your suggestion on how to help these people and stop the > killing as soon as possible? > > > Erik > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 30 09:46:41 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:46:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050128143830.93728.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050128143830.93728.qmail@web30709.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8fb44d6330a6e28c21b4517eebde471f@mac.com> Go read Gandhi before repeating these falsehoods. On Jan 28, 2005, at 6:38 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Hubert Mania wrote: > >> Erik wrote: >> >>> Just to name a few of the places where people of the world are >>> being killed right now as we speak. >>> What is your suggestion on how to help these people and stop the >>> killing as soon as possible? >> >> Erik, I am treating myself to the luxury of having no solution to >> offer. In my childish anarcho dreams I would redistribute the >> accumulated wealth of the planet in an appropriate and fair way. >> >> But the predator capitalists of the world would tear me apart. And >> apart from this unattainable goal I can see no relief. Count me out >> as a contributor for global solutions. > > Ah, the cowardice disguised as principle rears its head. A pacifist, > who would stand by as his own spouse and children were raped and > murdered merely to stand on 'principle' that one's own life is more > important, then blame the rest of society for not properly bribing the > criminals to stay away from them. > > Anarchists cannot tolerate greater fascism abroad while focusing on > minor fascists at home. They do so at their own peril. The petty > tyrants in your own backyard are the only thing keeping the major > tyrants abroad from making you their slave as well. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 30 10:15:03 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 02:15:03 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <98f268ee818ae9c9da21345030f0fced@mac.com> Why would i want a human body or something that remotely resembles one if I am truly posthuman and thus most of my needs and interests are no longer best served by such a form? I would only don such a grossly limited form on a whim or due to some temporary need. Our squishy sentimentalism toward our current form is symptomatic of much that makes it unlikely that more than a handful of originally human sentients will ever become truly posthuman. -s On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:08 PM, Diego Caleiro wrote: > > In a posthuman world, would we really need clothes? > > suppose that we keep antropomorphic, in this case, the religious > beleifs of > sin will have died out, and nobody would need to use clothes for this > reason... the cold weather would affect us much less, since we > could have > heat controls in our body, no need for clothing. > > If we do not choose to be antropomorphic, as most people here say we > won't, > then we woul be able to change our shape faster then the fashion could > create > clothes for us.... > > Diego (Log At) > > > > Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 23:36, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. > escreveu: >> Given human past tendancies to exterminate those who have some >> difference in outward appearance it would be best if a poshuman would >> be >> like a camelion.... keep a relatively human appearance while in the >> company of the old-style humans and transhumans in public and adopt a >> more unique appearance in private. >> >> Alternatively generate a hologram to customize outward appearances >> to >> the percieved comfort level of the observer. Essentially clothes >> could >> be replaced by a hologram to mask more functional body function and >> body maintence suits. >> >> Diego Caleiro wrote: >>> That depends on what do you mean by posthumanism, if you were talking >>> about what most people would choose to look like, in, say 500 years, >>> then >>> probably yes, there would be a difference between the human body and >>> the >>> post human. >>> >>> But the definition of posthuman is simply a matter of enhanced >>> human, and >>> it is possible to enhance yourself keeping your external appearence. >>> As >>> most tranhumanist would agree, each person should have his right to >>> not >>> change his appearence, if so he wishes. >>> >>> Diego (Log At) >>> >>> Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 13:47, Ned Late escreveu: >>>> However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, and wouldn't >>>> posthumanism be a rejection of the human body as we know it? >>>> >>>>> Hara Ra wrote: >>>>> But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an >>>>> extension of >>>>> humanity, not a rejection of the body..... >>>> >>>> --------------------------------- >>>> Do you Yahoo!? >>>> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> extropy-chat mailing list >>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From humania at t-online.de Sun Jan 30 11:13:38 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:13:38 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 References: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <002101c506bc$c8f93240$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Amara wrote: > You are familiar with some ideas of Jung of the shadow-self? We > are most upset by those aspects that we recognize in ourselves > and our impulse is to reject it, sometimes violently. I think > that it was numbing to see the 'beast-within' expressed to the > magntitude that was expressed in WWII. Probably it rendered > psychologically mute a layer of people closest to the ground zero > of the horror, the next layer closest could maybe express a bit > more, and so on. In any case, if faced with something approaching > that kind of horror, you did whatever it took to not be there > again, war-avoidance, to the extreme. Thank you, Amara, for your understanding. I can give you a tiny part of the view as a post war german school boy. Certainly, everyone here on this list has experienced or heard of a local vietnam veteran going mad, killing his wife or still behaving like a warrior in the relatively peaceful environment of a us suburb. Now imagine, you are a german school boy of 7 or 8 years and ALL male persons, your father, your uncles, some of your older cousins, your teachers, priests and doctors . . . they all are WWII veterans. They are mass murderers in the name of fascism, some of them, maybe the barber of your home town and the neglected drunkard at the end of the street who lost his job 10 years ago, even contributed their share to the unimaginable event called holocaust or shoah. The question that the simpler minds among them did not get an answer for in the 1950s is: How could it be unjust to torment, gas and burn the jews when you obey the order written on official government papers with the swastika on it, lots of double "S" in the rank descriptions of your army superiors, and - most important for a german subject - a stamp of a Berlin authority that immediately dispels his occasional worries and moral conflicts and makes his participation in the killing industry of Treblinka or Auschwitz an act of necessity. We are at war with the whole world, aren`t we?. The barber of your childhood still exposes the attitude of a sadistic SS pig. He does not cut your hair, he "executes" his job, in a similarly contemptuos way he had cut off the hair of jewish women, a few minutes before they went into the gas chambers. What's so bad about it? We are at war with the world, and jewish hair can be used for pillow fillings. It can be processed into the felt shoes the german submarine soldiers are wearing. So, as a little boy you are surrounded by mass murderers. Not a single male I got to know in the 1950s and 60s could serve as an example. The "souls" - you know what I mean - of these men were destroyed. A lot of them died young, my father with 46, he served in an execution commando in Belgium and Italy, never touched a gun again after the war and drowned his guilt in booze, literally drunk himself to death. I never met a man who by some degree was NOT at a new war with himself about his involvement with the Nazi army. Most of them abused alcohol in an attempt to kill the shadow personality Amara was talking about (C.G. Jung). One of the worst thing about growing up in post war germany, at least for me, was to be confronted with the distress of the perpetrators exclusively. There was no victim left in my home town, you could get to know or talk to. Because they were all dead. Killed by the mass murderers I met in the streets every day. To make it clear: I did not feel this way when I was a boy. These are my reflections as a man of fifty years. Subjects like holocaust and the personal guilt of the asshole soldier "in the fields" were taboo in post war germany. Those who survived built a new nation. There was this incredible economic boom and in the 1960s germany was second rang again among industrial nations. Musing on the subjects of Exi list and the obsession with weapons in the usa I can confirm: this is very deep gap between the cultures. I am 50 years old now and never in my life I had a gun in my hands that could kill. I never knew a single person who has shown me a gun. Describing myself as an "excellent rifleman" two days ago in my mail exchange with Mike Lorrey was of course the attempt of my shadow beast, "Nietzsche's Dragon", to reflect Mike's mind. I hope the absurdity of my other claims in this mails showed the satirical character of the answer. I never knew how to use a gun. Soldiers don't get punished for their killings. In some exceptional cases they get punished for so called war crimes. For me every minor injury that is suffered by civilians AND soldiers in an attacked country, in a preemptive war, is a war crime. But the majority of returning soldiers are left alone with their personal guilt. A german soldier surviving WWII and returning to his home town is a mass murderer. An american soldier returning from Falluja is a mass murderer. I urge everyone of you: please watch out for those who wage war in the name of freedom and democracy. Watch out for government actions that reduce your freedom for the promise of security. There is no such thing as security. The us population is kept in permanent fear and is fed with a strawman "enemy". The surveillance structures that are built on these artificially fanned fears right now are a big step towards a new kind of totalitarian state that might lead to a nice or comfortable (german: gemuetlich) fascism, with concentration camps and torture outside the us territory. There is a new world order arising and we better watch out. humania From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 11:56:00 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:56:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <002101c506bc$c8f93240$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> References: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <002101c506bc$c8f93240$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <470a3c52050130035635b32c7e@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for sharing this Hubert! On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:13:38 +0100, Hubert Mania wrote: > Amara wrote: > > > You are familiar with some ideas of Jung of the shadow-self? We > > are most upset by those aspects that we recognize in ourselves > > and our impulse is to reject it, sometimes violently. I think > > that it was numbing to see the 'beast-within' expressed to the > > magntitude that was expressed in WWII. Probably it rendered > > psychologically mute a layer of people closest to the ground zero > > of the horror, the next layer closest could maybe express a bit > > more, and so on. In any case, if faced with something approaching > > that kind of horror, you did whatever it took to not be there > > again, war-avoidance, to the extreme. > > Thank you, Amara, for your understanding. > > I can give you a tiny part of the view as a post war german school boy.... From es at popido.com Sun Jan 30 12:23:30 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:23:30 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <2c6ca98111c9c3a70fdf27bc7c51bcd8@mac.com> References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> <2c6ca98111c9c3a70fdf27bc7c51bcd8@mac.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> At 10:40 2005-01-30 Samantha Atkins wrote: >It sure as hell isn't preemptive war. Do you believe the US and thus >the citizens of the US, their fortunes, lives and those of their children >are owed to the suffering of every people on earth? Of course not. This is a global issue and should be handled globally. Unfortunatley, it's not, or at least not global enough. >Do you further believe that the "cure" takes the form of preemptive >strikes? Calling the attack on Iraq "preemptive" wasn't the best of justifications for attacking from the coalition. It should really be enough to say that Saddam Hussein was a criminal with too much power, a massmurderer who prevented the country from developing and caused it's people to starve. Of course, doing so was politically impossible at the time. >if not then what is the point of your question? Do you believe endless >war serves up maximum extropy? I believe that freedom, trade and the free spreading of ideas between free minds are the best steps possible towards a transhuman future. My question remains: what do you suggest should be done to prevent the genocide in Sudan or the famine in North Korea? Remember, people are dying there NOW. Not doing anything or not acting fast enough is the same thing as letting these people die. Erik From humania at t-online.de Sun Jan 30 12:26:54 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:26:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - is Americafascist yet?] References: <200501281835.j0SIZgC13150@tick.javien.com> <090d01c5067a$80330050$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <003501c506c7$0824b890$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> > http://www.harrybrowne.org/articles/ObsessionWithWar.htm > > Olga Thanx ,Olga, for this link. Pave the streets with with speech and paste it on the walls. humania From jef at jefallbright.net Sun Jan 30 13:12:01 2005 From: jef at jefallbright.net (Jef Allbright) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 05:12:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <002101c506bc$c8f93240$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> References: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <002101c506bc$c8f93240$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <41FCDD21.3000201@jefallbright.net> Hubert Mania wrote: >Thank you, Amara, for your understanding. > >I can give you a tiny part of the view as a post war german school boy. >Certainly, everyone here on this list has experienced or heard of a local >vietnam veteran going mad, killing his wife or still behaving like a warrior >in the relatively peaceful environment of a us suburb. Now imagine, you are >a german school boy of 7 or 8 years and ALL male persons, your father, your >uncles, some of your older cousins, your teachers, priests and doctors . . . >they all are WWII veterans. They are mass murderers in the name of fascism, >some of them, maybe the barber of your home town and the neglected drunkard >at the end of the street who lost his job 10 years ago, even contributed >their share to the unimaginable event called holocaust or shoah. > > > Hubert - Thank you for your recent contribution to the list. This is the first post from you over the last few years that I could read to the end without prematurely deleting it as an emotional rant. It helped me listen and understand your point of view far better than all the others combined. - Jef From humania at t-online.de Sun Jan 30 14:06:49 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:06:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - isAmericafascist yet?] References: <200501300508.j0U58JC06305@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <005b01c506d4$f8105320$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> > The important thing is that we each have the freedom > to make our lives what we want them to be. By that criterion, > I would say the U.S. is a pretty good place to do that > spike Sure, the existing concentration camps are not on us territory. Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba, Falluja and Abu Ghraib are in Iraq and the prisons, where the CIA and some even more secret services are practising torture for the profits of the us military and oil industry, are located somewhere between Afghanistan and Syria. The horrible spacetime of the inexpressible pain and death of an imaginary enemy thankfully unfolds abroad. So, its coordinates fortnately do not disturb the tiny public space that is left in the usa between nothingness and entertainment. humania From neptune at superlink.net Sun Jan 30 14:50:55 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:50:55 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission References: <00cc01c50344$1a3a1240$3b893cd1@pavilion><56B5068C-6FCB-11D9-918A-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com><01c401c503f0$9eb4a380$5b893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <00e601c506db$1af51140$f8893cd1@pavilion> On Saturday, January 29, 2005 9:26 AM Bret Kulakovich bret at bonfireproductions.com wrote: >>> I don't mind the expense - we have a pile of >>> instruments already built that would have been >>> installed by now, that are just sitting Earthside. >> >> That's typical of many space enthusiasts: no >> concern with costs. I think such an attitude >> partly causes so little to get done. > > Aha! - but if this was a typical space enthusiast > without concern for cost, I would rebuttle with > the expense of various other programs that > cost far more e.g. war, social security, etc. =) Specious argument. Just because waste exists elsewhere does not justify waste here. You're using an argument similar to, "Because my neighbors beat their kids, I should be able to beat mine." > I did not say I was not concerned - but that I > didn't mind. Because the hardware upgrades > that the taxpayers have already paid for are > sitting around on the ground being expensive. > It's not like we can take a Hubble component > down to Chile and use it in the new telescopes > there instead. While it's true that it's unlikely a Hubble component is going to be used for a telescope in Chile, this does not mean that it has no other use -- for instance, it could be sold to SpaceDev to make a private space telescope -- or that more money should be used on it. You're using the Vietnam argument here -- i.e., we've already wasted resources R on project P, so wasting more than R on P is justified. Actually, sometimes it's better to fold than to keep putting money into the pot. Also, being one of said taxpayers, I'd rather not have any more money taken from me -- even if you want yours taken from you.:) Cheers! Dan See "Tackling Tebye Again!" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye2.html From gregburch at gregburch.net Sun Jan 30 15:36:41 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:36:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: <005b01c506d4$f8105320$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Hubert Mania > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 8:07 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - > isAmericafascistyet?] > > > > The important thing is that we each have the freedom > > to make our lives what we want them to be. By that criterion, > > I would say the U.S. is a pretty good place to do that > > > spike > > Sure, the existing concentration camps are not on us territory. Guantanamo > Bay is in Cuba, Falluja and Abu Ghraib are in Iraq and the prisons, where > the CIA and some even more secret services are practising torture for the > profits of the us military and oil industry, are located somewhere between > Afghanistan and Syria. The horrible spacetime of the > inexpressible pain and > death of an imaginary enemy thankfully unfolds abroad. So, its coordinates > fortnately do not disturb the tiny public space that is left in the > usa between nothingness and entertainment. > > humania Hubert: I won't try to engage you in dialogue about political conditions in the U.S. or the war in the Middle East -- our views are too far apart for that, I'm afraid. I would like to ask two fairly narrow questions just to understand what your view of society in your own part of the world is. It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated Muslims in Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any proposed solution to this? GB From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 30 16:33:57 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 08:33:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: <005b01c506d4$f8105320$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <200501301634.j0UGY9C24991@tick.javien.com> > ... Hubert Mania > ... The Force of Human Freedom [was - > isAmericafascistyet?] > > > The important thing is that we each have the freedom > > to make our lives what we want them to be. By that criterion, > > I would say the U.S. is a pretty good place to do that > > > spike > > Sure, the existing concentration camps are not on us territory...The horrible spacetime of the inexpressible pain > and > death of an imaginary enemy thankfully unfolds abroad. So, its coordinates > fortnately do not disturb the tiny public space that is left in the > usa between nothingness and entertainment. > > humania Humania, your bio-post was good, very informative. This war is tragic as all hell, I am very much in agreement, as nearly everyone. The news this morning from Iraq is encouraging. http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/29/us.iraqis.vote.ap/index.html Let us see if the Iraqis can put together a decent government out of all this. After all that has happened, I am still optimistic. Here's a shock: even cBS posted a positive story about the Iraqi elections. That must have killed them. {8-] http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/01/28/national/main670226.shtml I didn't even look at FoxNews, but they must be having a terrific party over there. The things the Iraqi people are saying should inspire people in democracies all over the world. Humania, we are all against war. If someone is willing to kill you in order to make you his slave, then war is the result, not the goal. Peace is always the goal. spike From humania at t-online.de Sun Jan 30 16:31:43 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:31:43 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was -isAmericafascistyet?] References: Message-ID: <000f01c506e9$3ad06650$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Greg Burch asked: It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated Muslims in Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any proposed solution to this? ________________________________ I have nothing but contempt for the islamofascists who demonstrate their inhumanity by beheading innocent foreign civilists. But could it be, they behave that way because the us invaded iraq? Yes, it seems to be true, that 9-11-2001 was planned in Hamburg. But I cannot confirm there is an increasingly segment of Muslim population that is radicalized. And even if this should have been testified by people who had access to their conspiratively acting teams . . . so what, they DID NOT blow up anything here yet. And . . . no, I have no solution to offer. I have no fear when I walk through the streets of Hamburg or Berlin. If I happen to be among the victims of an islamofascist assault . . . well, too bad then . . .but I will not let my mind be aflame with an imaginary threat. In this respect, german citizens are fortunately not kept in a permanent state of alert and fear by government propagangda or a press which functions as a party mouthpiece. Or at least, let's say, the atmosphere is much more relaxed than in the usa. In the end it depends on WHAT kind of propaganda you prefer to believe. humania From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Jan 30 17:01:30 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:01:30 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050130035635b32c7e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <002101c506bc$c8f93240$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> <470a3c52050130035635b32c7e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you, Hubert. My daughter now lives in Germany. May I forward this to her, as she is young and will need to understand? After all, her father-in-law is in his 70s. Regards, MB > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:13:38 +0100, Hubert Mania wrote: > > > > I can give you a tiny part of the view as a post war german school boy.... From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 17:47:32 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:47:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c506d4$f8105320$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <470a3c5205013009477dd964e6@mail.gmail.com> The question was not asked to me, but I will try answering. Greg, you are correct in the sense that younger immigrant generations are probably MORE inclined to religiously-motivated violence than the older generations. In my opinion the simpler explanation the young have seen the old making an effort to become integrated in european society, and not achieving it (they still have worse jobs and living conditions than the average). So they feel powerless and seek an identity they can live with in the religion of their grandfathers. A solution? Simple, cure the disease and not the symptom. G. On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:36:41 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated Muslims in Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any proposed solution to this? From hkhenson at rogers.com Sun Jan 30 18:09:19 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:09:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050130125050.034adec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 09:08 AM 30/01/05 +0100, you wrote: >Keith Henson, > >Hi! (and thanks for your nice words) > > >And *why* hasn't there been another major war in Europe in > >the last 60 years? > >I think I know why. > >What are your suggestions? > >I don't have a theory to test, only some thoughts after many >conversations with my family and the people arouund me and living >in Europe now ~7 years. Hubert Mania filled in for me some of >the holes of German perspectives (since WWII) that I didn't >understand yet, as well. (Extropes, consider for a moment _why_ >he is so sensitive regarding facism; his salvos, then, might be >easier to understand, moreover, might actually be _useful_.) > >I think that the horrors of WWII (events leading to, during, and >after) reached so deep into the consciousness of those people who >experienced it (directly, indirectly), that one psychologically, >unconsciously, needed to perform a kind of cauterization to stop >oneself from going mad. > >At first glimpse, the psychological effect looks like when you >burn yourself on the stovetop, it is enough to teach you to jerk >your hand away when you are close to the flame again. In this >situation of what humans faced in WWII, I think it is much more. > >You are familiar with some ideas of Jung of the shadow-self? We >are most upset by those aspects that we recognize in ourselves >and our impulse is to reject it, sometimes violently. I think >that it was numbing to see the 'beast-within' expressed to the >magntitude that was expressed in WWII. Probably it rendered >psychologically mute a layer of people closest to the ground zero >of the horror, the next layer closest could maybe express a bit >more, and so on. In any case, if faced with something approaching >that kind of horror, you did whatever it took to not be there >again, war-avoidance, to the extreme. > >Now you, being the meme-guy, probably have a meme-explanation, >yes? Maybe those people carrying the meme-of-great-beastliness >usually died, and left those carrying memes-of-less-beastliness >survived and reproduced? While memes are in the causal chain leading to wars, any xenophobic meme will do to work the population, particularly the warriors, up onto a killing frenzy. The key point is that a long time ago predators were no longer effective in limiting the population of hominids in our line. Ultimately we were forced to become our own predators. War is the result when the population exceeds the resources, or more correctly, war happens when hominids who are good at anticipating the future see things looking bleak. Perception of a bleak future activates a psychological mechanism that increases the gain on the class of xenophobic memes. *Some* meme will get enough influence to motivate the population. In the case of Easter Island, it was the "long ears" vs the "short ears." (All of the people were related having come from a founder stock of perhaps 20 people.) So, why has Europe stay in "war off" mode for the last 60 years? Because population growth stayed below economic growth. That's also why the IRA lost the support of the Irish population. About 30 years ago the birth rate in Ireland took a major drop. Eventually economic growth got ahead of population growth. Rising income per capita maps into good times for our hunter gatherer ancestors, time to hunt and raise kids rather than attempt to kill off the neighboring tribe. I recently finished a 20 page paper on this depressing subject. Since is it for publication, I can't just post it, but I can send people who want a copy. It would be ok to quote short parts and comment on them if you want. Keith Henson From gregburch at gregburch.net Sun Jan 30 18:23:47 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:23:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was-isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: <000f01c506e9$3ad06650$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: I don't understand your position, in which you feel justified in making the bitterest criticisms of the policies advocated by others, but repeatedly retreat to the statement that you have no solution to offer. You say "they DID NOT blow up anything here yet." Perhaps that's because they've been using Germany as a safe haven for organizing and recruiting since the 1968 Olympics, taking advantage of Germany's pacifist culture. Just as a hypothetical, what policies would you support if Islamofascist attacks WITHIN Germany began? GB > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Hubert Mania > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:32 AM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom > [was-isAmericafascistyet?] > > > Greg Burch asked: > > It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated > Muslims in > Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger > segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to > religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any > proposed solution to this? > ________________________________ > > I have nothing but contempt for the islamofascists who demonstrate their > inhumanity by beheading innocent foreign civilists. But could it be, they > behave that way because the us invaded iraq? > > Yes, it seems to be true, that 9-11-2001 was planned in Hamburg. But I > cannot confirm there is an increasingly segment of Muslim > population that is > radicalized. And even if this should have been testified by people who had > access to their conspiratively acting teams . . . so what, they > DID NOT blow > up anything here yet. > > And . . . no, I have no solution to offer. I have no fear when I walk > through the streets of Hamburg or Berlin. If I happen to be among the > victims of an islamofascist assault . . . well, too bad then . . > .but I will > not let my mind be aflame with an imaginary threat. In this > respect, german > citizens are fortunately not kept in a permanent state of alert > and fear by > government propagangda or a press which functions as a party > mouthpiece. Or > at least, let's say, the atmosphere is much more relaxed than in > the usa. In > the end it depends on WHAT kind of propaganda you prefer to believe. > > humania > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 18:41:33 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:41:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050130125050.034adec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <20050130080208.M59199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <5.1.0.14.0.20050130125050.034adec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5366105b050130104168b50f8e@mail.gmail.com> Sunday, 30 January 2005 K.H.: [snip] > I recently finished a 20 page paper on this depressing subject. Since is > it for publication, I can't just post it, but I can send people who want a > copy. It would be ok to quote short parts and comment on them if you want. > I would enjoy reading your paper. I'd like a copy, but if you tell me which journal will publish it I will see if a local library can get it. -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From neptune at superlink.net Sun Jan 30 19:21:59 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:21:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] OTV Hubble Rescue Mission? Message-ID: <004e01c50700$f90cfea0$d0893cd1@pavilion> Here's a reply to Mike Lorrey that was posted to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ Dan From: "bestonnet_00" no_reply at yahoogroups.com To: howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:44 AM Subject: [How to build a Space Habitat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply from Mike Lorrey --- In howtobuildaspacehabitat at yahoogroups.com, "Dan" wrote: > Another cross-post... > From: "Mike Lorrey" mlorrey at y... > To: "ExI chat list" extropy-chat at l... > Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 5:59 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission > > Of course it doesn't. ISS got put where it is so the Russians could > launch as much cargo to it as possible from their high latitude > sites, while the Hubble is where it is because its allows the most > cargo to be lifted there from launches at Cape Canaveral. Since the > shuttle isn't going to the Hubble any more, we should either start > launching Soyuz from the Cape, or move the shuttles to Siberia, or > both. A Soyuz pad is being built at Kourou that should be able to reach the Hubble. > Anyways, my Phillips OTV idea doesn't require the shuttle to go to > the Hubble. The OTV can be launched by a Titan or Delta IV or > smaller booster, so it would cost ~$10-20 million to launch. A Titan or Delta IV is going to cost more like 100 to 200 million. > If the OTV is built and sitting in a warehouse somewhere, it might > be picked up for surplus. I think it unlikely that it actually is sitting in a warehouse somewhere. <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/howtobuildaspacehabitat/ From Steve365 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 30 19:25:14 2005 From: Steve365 at btinternet.com (Steve Davies) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:25:14 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was -isAmericafascistyet?] References: <005b01c506d4$f8105320$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> <470a3c5205013009477dd964e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001001c50701$6d575990$c55f8351@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giu1i0 Pri5c0" > The question was not asked to me, but I will try answering. > Greg, you are correct in the sense that younger immigrant generations > are probably MORE inclined to religiously-motivated violence than the > older generations. In my opinion the simpler explanation the young > have seen the old making an effort to become integrated in european > society, and not achieving it (they still have worse jobs and living > conditions than the average). So they feel powerless and seek an > identity they can live with in the religion of their grandfathers. > A solution? Simple, cure the disease and not the symptom. > G. > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:36:41 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated Muslims in Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any proposed solution to this? Again the question wasn't aimed at me but I'll have a stab at it. It is true that there is a large population of young Muslims in Europe who are alienated from the order in which they live (I don't like 'unassimilated' as I would argue you can be unassimilated but not radically alienated). I'd make the following points. 1. They are not alone in this. There are many alienated young people, particularly men, among many social groups. For me this reflects the experience of being at the sharp end of rapid economic and technological change, particularly changes that have reduced the status and relative earning power of unskilled young men, and also the way in which many historical identities become both problematic and more intensely held in the face of such factors as growing economic integration (aka globalisation), increased cultural interaction, and large scale migration. 2. In many ways this should not surprise us. Young Muslims in Europe are simply following the standard pattern for migrant groups, in which a substantial minority of the second or third generation become intensely attached to a highly conservative form of their ancestral culture, often with the result that they are more traditional than the population 'back home'. That's why if you want to see how 19th century Wales worked you go to Patagonia, you would go to Cape Breton for insight into traditional Scots Gaelic life and (until recently) the place to find out about traditional Catholic French society was Quebec. Given world geopolitics this can now take the form of support for militant or terrorist organisations. This is not surprising - a sociologist of migration would predict confidently that groups like Al Queda will do better among Islamic populations in the West than back in the Middle East (and that there it will tend to do best in relatively modernised states and among people exposed to modernity). 3. The young Muslims who are angry and alienated and attached to a reactionary form of their religion get a lot of attention because they make good TV. By contrast no attention is paid to the larger group who are quietly abandoning their religion and becoming secular or are developing a modernist variant of it. Apart from lack of media 'sexiness', these people also don't have access to the huge funds that the Saudis pour into obscurantist and reactionary organisations. 4. Certain migrant populations (who happen to be Muslim) have a particular problem in modern societies. This is a family system in which the normal practice is to marry your cousin. Among groups in Western Europe such as Bangladeshis, Pakistanis and Arabs, this makes economic success much more difficult and hampers integration into the wider society. Steve Davies. From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 19:27:04 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:27:04 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> <2c6ca98111c9c3a70fdf27bc7c51bcd8@mac.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <5366105b05013011277f15124e@mail.gmail.com> > > My question remains: what do you suggest should be done to prevent the > genocide in Sudan or the famine in North Korea? > How can individuals help? A list of suggestions or a pointer to the same, either off-list or on, seems the next step after this challenge. > Remember, people are dying there NOW. Not doing anything or not acting fast > enough is the same thing as letting these people die. > -- Jay Dugger BLOG: http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME: http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS: http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From neptune at superlink.net Sun Jan 30 19:32:27 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:32:27 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] OTV Hubble Rescue Mission?/was Re: [How to build a Space Habitat] Re: Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission--reply from Mike Lorrey References: Message-ID: <005801c50702$6f25bb80$d0893cd1@pavilion> On Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:44 AM bestonnet_00 bestonnet_00 at yahoo.com wrote: >> Of course it doesn't. ISS got put where it is >> so the Russians could launch as much >> cargo to it as possible from their high >> latitude sites, while the Hubble is where >> it is because its allows the most cargo to >> be lifted there from launches at Cape >> Canaveral. Since the shuttle isn't going to >> the Hubble any more, we should either start >> launching Soyuz from the Cape, or move >> the shuttles to Siberia, or both. > > A Soyuz pad is being built at Kourou that > should be able to reach the Hubble. I'm not so sure, but you might be right. All other things being equal, an equatorial launch would give the vehicle more delta-V and that could, e.g., put more fuel on orbit, allowing a Soyuz (or whatever) to have more fuel to spare for orbital changes, including orbital plane change. (Hubble is in an inclined orbit, no?) Of course, this could be compensated for by launch vector as well, but I don't know the costs. The other problem with Kourou or the Australian site is neither have yet, to my knowledge, launched a Soyuz. That might be a few years off, which might put it out of the time frame of a Hubble repair mission. >> Anyways, my Phillips OTV idea doesn't >> require the shuttle to go to the Hubble. >> The OTV can be launched by a Titan or >> Delta IV or smaller booster, so it would >> cost ~$10-20 million to launch. > > A Titan or Delta IV is going to cost more > like 100 to 200 million. Likely true. The bigger Titans go up to $400 million, IIRC, which would make it compared to a Shuttle mission. >> If the OTV is built and sitting in a warehouse >> somewhere, it might be picked up for surplus. > > I think it unlikely that it actually is sitting in > a warehouse somewhere. I don't want to diss Mike, but I think it's pure fantasy to think a working OTV is laying around somewhere at Vandenburg or Groom Lake just waiting for us to fly it. I don't think the OTV ever got past initial development and project is either on hold or dead now. Reviving it might be in order -- though I'd prefer it done outside the ambit of a public space program -- but unless there's some kind of crash program or big breakthrough, I don't see it being ready in time for this mission. Now, if Mike has more than just pure speculation on the OTV, I'm willing to listen, but his continued attempt to get someone to admit the thing is ready to fly or actually being used appears to me to great material for an "X-Files" episode, but not for a Hubble repair mission. (And, for the record, yes, the US government -- along with all the others -- does hide stuff, but that doesn't mean that that's so with the OTV. Speculation <> evidence.) Verily, Dan See "Tackling Tebye Again!" at: http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye2.html From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 30 19:51:17 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:51:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Greg Benford on climate change and Crichton Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130134724.019a3a48@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050121/news_lz1e21benford.html ON CLIMATE CHANGE Fear of reason By Gregory Benford and Martin Hoffert January 21, 2005 Michael Crichton has taken us to fantastic places like Jurassic Park and into realistic ones, as in his TV series "ER." But now he ventures into rugged scientific terrain, and loses his footing. Advertisement Crichton's new novel, "State of Fear," takes on global warming and climate change. He lards it with arguments against the reality of climate change and includes many references to the scientific literature, including one of ours. In a recent speech to the Commonwealth Club in San Francisco he even cited our paper from the peer-reviewed journal Science. Such attention can be heartwarming to scientists, but not this time ? because Crichton gets the science wrong. Despite "State of Fear's" long bibliography, Crichton seems to have actually read only secondary sources, and does not understand them. He writes that our paper "concluded that there is no known technology that will enable us to halt the rise of carbon dioxide in the 21st century." But we didn't say that. Instead, we outlined plenty of technologies that must be further developed to stop a probable several-degree rise in global temperatures. We called for a Manhattan Project-style effort to explore technologies we already have. Perhaps because he wanted a dramatic, contrarian theme, Crichton did not let facts get in the way. For example, he argues in "State of Fear" that our oceans are not warming. This is important because, as Arthur Clarke reminded us, it makes little sense to call our planet "Earth" when 70 percent of its surface is ocean. Not only are the oceans warming at the surface, there is well-documented and pronounced subsurface warming and heat storage ? as predicted 20 years ago and consistent with atmosphere and ocean climate models. He's wrong, too, when he claims that a simple fact ? that cities are warmer than countryside, leading to a "heat island effect" ? has been ignored in climate temperature data taken near cities. He misleads his readers when he has his characters say that temperatures measured by Earth satellites are inconsistent with global warming derived from thermometers on land. To "document" his claims, Crichton shows many plots downloaded from the NASA/GISS Web site ? but he misrepresents the data. Further, he invokes the pseudo-sciences of eugenics and Lysenkoism (in the former Soviet Union) as examples of mainstream scientists being led astray. But these were politically driven ideologies. They have more in common with the voodoo science of the climate contrarians than the dominant view of atmospheric scientists and geophysicists. In keeping with many relevant professional societies, like the American Geophysical Union, we are convinced that the fossil fuel greenhouse is already here, and has the potential to vastly transform terrestrial climate for millennia to come. To believe Crichton and company, you have to believe that there's a vast conspiracy ? involving the editors of Science, Nature, Scientific American and some dozen other peer-reviewed journals ? to exclude and reject climate skeptics papers. The skeptics mainly publish books and on Web sites, avoiding journals. The reality of climate change triggered by continued fossil fuel burning ? and increasingly coal ? threatens entrenched energy interests. Some of these lobby against it with the ferocity of the National Rifle Association. Desperate for scientific cover, some opponents have seized on Crichton's fiction. Incredibly, in a Jan. 4 speech, Sen. James Inhofe, R-Oklahoma, invoked "State of Fear" as an argument against the bipartisan McCain-Lieberman energy bill ? which for all its failings acknowledges the reality of global warming. "Dr. Crichton," said Inhofe, "a medical doctor and scientist, very cleverly weaves a compelling presentation of the scientific facts of climate change ? with ample footnotes and documentation throughout ? into a gripping plot." But Crichton freely admitted that Saturday afternoon movie cliffhangers inspired his plot. The New York Times Book Review summary of "State of Fear" ? "Reverse eco-terrorists create natural disasters to convince the public that global warming is real" ? underscores that Crichton is redirecting fear of global warming to anger at the messengers. This is a tragedy. Our Science paper argues that responding in a technically innovative way to the climate/energy challenge can generate countless jobs and economic growth in the United States. Much is at stake if we embrace "State of Fear's" take on global warming. Antarctic ice cores show that our civilization has enjoyed a long, comfortable climate for the last 10,000 years. To disturb this with a sudden rise in temperature could soon endanger us. Worse, there are some clues that we could tilt the global equilibrium and not be able to get back to the balmy era we've enjoyed throughout human history. That would be a catastrophe dwarfing the recent tsunami's destruction. The climate/energy issue failed to surface in the last election not because it's unimportant but because we fail to sense the urgency. In large part this is because of deniers like Crichton, resulting in a U.S. policy that is "aprs moi le d?luge." Still we don't sandbag against the floods of tomorrow. Fairly comfortable now, we live in a science fictional narrative whose ending we're shaping with our inaction. Benford is a professor of physics at UC Irvine and the author of "Deep Time" and the science-fiction Nebula award-winning "Timescape." Hoffert is professor of physics at New York University and lead author of studies on stabilizing climate change from the fossil fuel greenhouse that have appeared in Nature and Science. From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 30 20:40:35 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:40:35 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was-isAmericafascistyet?] References: <000f01c506e9$3ad06650$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Message-ID: <41FD4643.FFE0B43D@mindspring.com> Hubert Mania wrote: > > Greg Burch asked: > > It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated Muslims in > Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger > segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to > religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any > proposed solution to this? > ________________________________ > > I have nothing but contempt for the islamofascists who demonstrate their > inhumanity by beheading innocent foreign civilists. But could it be, they > behave that way because the us invaded iraq? > > Yes, it seems to be true, that 9-11-2001 was planned in Hamburg. But I > cannot confirm there is an increasingly segment of Muslim population that is > radicalized. And even if this should have been testified by people who had > access to their conspiratively acting teams . . . so what, they DID NOT blow > up anything here yet. > > And . . . no, I have no solution to offer. I have no fear when I walk > through the streets of Hamburg or Berlin. If I happen to be among the > victims of an islamofascist assault . . . well, too bad then . . .but I will > not let my mind be aflame with an imaginary threat. In this respect, german > citizens are fortunately not kept in a permanent state of alert and fear by > government propagangda or a press which functions as a party mouthpiece. Or > at least, let's say, the atmosphere is much more relaxed than in the usa. In > the end it depends on WHAT kind of propaganda you prefer to believe. > > humania Hubert, The following link is an excellent review of Al-Qaeda in Europe country-by-country. Other links in this Frontline program explain how the operational nature of bin Laden's network has morphed into a social movement. The threat is not imaginary no matter the hype by the media, the Bush administration, and other governments. < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ > Terry -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 30 20:42:43 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 12:42:43 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> <2c6ca98111c9c3a70fdf27bc7c51bcd8@mac.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 4:23 AM, Erik Starck wrote: > At 10:40 2005-01-30 Samantha Atkins wrote: >> It sure as hell isn't preemptive war. Do you believe the US and >> thus the citizens of the US, their fortunes, lives and those of their >> children are owed to the suffering of every people on earth? > > Of course not. This is a global issue and should be handled globally. > Unfortunatley, it's not, or at least not global enough. > >> Do you further believe that the "cure" takes the form of preemptive >> strikes? > > Calling the attack on Iraq "preemptive" wasn't the best of > justifications for attacking from the coalition. It should really be > enough to say that Saddam Hussein was a criminal with too much power, > a massmurderer who prevented the country from developing and caused > it's people to starve. Ah. The sanctions and destroyed infrastructure and continued bombing had nothing to do with it I suppose. A properly virtuous leader like that Bush fellow would have triumphed and Iraq would have been a land of milk and honey. It also seems awfully strange and quite sad that in this supposedly more blessed land that we are saddled with such debt as to be a major danger to the world. We fight wars of words to keep our religious fanatics from seizing power. We imprison more of our citizens than any country on earth. Yet we believe all will be well if we export our ways to all the earth even if we do so by force of arms. -samantha > > Of course, doing so was politically impossible at the time. > >> if not then what is the point of your question? Do you believe >> endless war serves up maximum extropy? > > I believe that freedom, trade and the free spreading of ideas between > free minds are the best steps possible towards a transhuman future. > > My question remains: what do you suggest should be done to prevent the > genocide in Sudan or the famine in North Korea? > > Remember, people are dying there NOW. Not doing anything or not acting > fast enough is the same thing as letting these people die. > > > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From humania at t-online.de Sun Jan 30 20:48:28 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:48:28 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom[was-isAmericafascistyet?] References: Message-ID: <005801c5070d$157beea0$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> I am no man of action who knows a solution for every problem in the world. This is one of the few things I am definitely proud of: To be able to admit that I, personally, do not have a solution for two or three of the major problems in the world. My criticism of american politics is built upon the illegal invasion of a country that had nothing to do with 9-11. If any islamist assault should happen in Germany, it will be persecuted in the frame of the rule of law, a decent country feels obligated to. This means police action instead of waging a real war with military force. humania ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Burch" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 7:23 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom[was-isAmericafascistyet?] > I don't understand your position, in which you feel justified in making the bitterest criticisms of the policies advocated by others, but repeatedly retreat to the statement that you have no solution to offer. You say "they DID NOT blow up anything here yet." Perhaps that's because they've been using Germany as a safe haven for organizing and recruiting since the 1968 Olympics, taking advantage of Germany's pacifist culture. Just as a hypothetical, what policies would you support if Islamofascist attacks WITHIN Germany began? > > GB > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Hubert Mania > > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:32 AM > > To: ExI chat list > > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom > > [was-isAmericafascistyet?] > > > > > > Greg Burch asked: > > > > It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated > > Muslims in > > Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger > > segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to > > religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any > > proposed solution to this? > > ________________________________ > > > > I have nothing but contempt for the islamofascists who demonstrate their > > inhumanity by beheading innocent foreign civilists. But could it be, they > > behave that way because the us invaded iraq? > > > > Yes, it seems to be true, that 9-11-2001 was planned in Hamburg. But I > > cannot confirm there is an increasingly segment of Muslim > > population that is > > radicalized. And even if this should have been testified by people who had > > access to their conspiratively acting teams . . . so what, they > > DID NOT blow > > up anything here yet. > > > > And . . . no, I have no solution to offer. I have no fear when I walk > > through the streets of Hamburg or Berlin. If I happen to be among the > > victims of an islamofascist assault . . . well, too bad then . . > > .but I will > > not let my mind be aflame with an imaginary threat. In this > > respect, german > > citizens are fortunately not kept in a permanent state of alert > > and fear by > > government propagangda or a press which functions as a party > > mouthpiece. Or > > at least, let's say, the atmosphere is much more relaxed than in > > the usa. In > > the end it depends on WHAT kind of propaganda you prefer to believe. > > > > humania > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 30 21:05:59 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:05:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> <2c6ca98111c9c3a70fdf27bc7c51bcd8@mac.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <0aca616fb00089023d0107ca41bd9d4e@mac.com> > > I believe that freedom, trade and the free spreading of ideas between > free minds are the best steps possible towards a transhuman future. > > My question remains: what do you suggest should be done to prevent the > genocide in Sudan or the famine in North Korea? > > Remember, people are dying there NOW. Not doing anything or not acting > fast enough is the same thing as letting these people die. > > in answer to your question, i don't believe there is a lot that can be done immediately that would be of more help than harm in many situations where people are dying right now. Our experience in iraq and in other countries where we have forced a regime change by less obvious means does not suggest this is a particularly effective means. i think that the only generally effective means is to create true abundance and the ability and willingness to both enjoy it ourselves and allow others, even those we despise, to do likewise. Globalization that is more about hegemony than abundance just isn't good enough. Opening more and more markets to a fundamentally unbalanced economics in hope of staving of collapse isn't good enough. Somehow we must find and strike at the root. Running about attempting to bully the world under protestations of caring will not do. - samantha > Erik > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 30 21:33:56 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:33:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom Message-ID: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep at night, or get out of bed in the morning? Amara From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 30 21:40:15 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:40:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <20050130213821.M25551@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Hi Keith, Thanks for your hypothesis and explanation. >So, why has Europe stay in "war off" mode for the last 60 years? > Because population growth stayed below economic growth. This makes sense, so let's see what happens when Turkey joins the old countries, hmm? Amara (who is actually looking forward to that) P.S. Please tell us the details of the paper when it is out. I'm interested in it too. From Steve365 at btinternet.com Sun Jan 30 21:54:09 2005 From: Steve365 at btinternet.com (Steve Davies) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:54:09 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050130125050.034adec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <003b01c50716$3b1d7b70$c55f8351@oemcomputer> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Henson" >From Amara Graps > > > >Now you, being the meme-guy, probably have a meme-explanation, > >yes? Maybe those people carrying the meme-of-great-beastliness > >usually died, and left those carrying memes-of-less-beastliness > >survived and reproduced? > > While memes are in the causal chain leading to wars, any xenophobic meme > will do to work the population, particularly the warriors, up onto a > killing frenzy. > > The key point is that a long time ago predators were no longer effective in > limiting the population of hominids in our line. > > Ultimately we were forced to become our own predators. War is the result > when the population exceeds the resources, or more correctly, war happens > when hominids who are good at anticipating the future see things looking > bleak. > > Perception of a bleak future activates a psychological mechanism that > increases the gain on the class of xenophobic memes. *Some* meme will get > enough influence to motivate the population. In the case of Easter Island, > it was the "long ears" vs the "short ears." (All of the people were > related having come from a founder stock of perhaps 20 people.) > > So, why has Europe stay in "war off" mode for the last 60 years? Because > population growth stayed below economic growth. > > That's also why the IRA lost the support of the Irish population. About 30 > years ago the birth rate in Ireland took a major drop. Eventually economic > growth got ahead of population growth. Rising income per capita maps into > good times for our hunter gatherer ancestors, time to hunt and raise kids > rather than attempt to kill off the neighboring tribe. > > I recently finished a 20 page paper on this depressing subject. Since is > it for publication, I can't just post it, but I can send people who want a > copy. It would be ok to quote short parts and comment on them if you want. > > Keith Henson I would broadly agree with that but it isn't enough by itself. Wars can often arise towards the end of long periods of growth when the prospects would seem very good. The Great War of 1914-1918 broke out after what was the longest and most rapid period of sustained intensive growth in human history till then. I would supplement Keith's argument with one drawn from economics and the use of game theory to model aggregate human behaviour. Historically there are two ways of getting wealth, by production or trade and by force. These translate into the two strategies of Hawk (predation) and Dove (cooperation/production). If everyone is a Hawk no wealth is produced and we're in a Hobbesian state of nature. If everyone is a Dove, everyone gains. Problem is the ideal situation is to be the one Hawk among a lot of Doves. Playing out this game in a multi-shot, multi-player format seems to lead to a stable equilibrium of 90% Doves to 10% Hawks, hence the historic pattern of a productive society and a parasitic elite. It's in the interests of the Hawks to establish a local monopoly of predation and to protect your own Doves. That way they become more productive and there's more for the Hawks to skim off. (A common problem is that the Hawks become too greedy and take too much). In the past Europe gained because it was politically divided - there was competition between sets of Hawks rather than a single one. After the 17th century a set of tacit rules developed to control this competition. In the 20th century you have a struggle to see if any one set of Hawks can establish itself in a hegemonic position in Europe and by extension within the world economic system. Competition between states and their ruling classes (Hawks) or between ruling classes and aspirants to that position is more likely when population growth excedes economic growth and, as Keith points out, these are conditions where memes that lead to conflict will be more influential. Ireland and Yugoslavia both illustrate this. Yugoslavia also shows another thing that has been modelled by Schelling and others, that given a divided population you only need a small minority on either side that is committed to violence for an unravelling of civil peace and a polarisation of the parts of the community - Lebanon and the Indian Partition both show this. Again economic decline makes this much more likely. However the other time when conflict is most likely is precisely when growth seems to be opening up unlimited opportunities. Here the temptation is for one set of Hawks to try to capture as much as possible of the new revenue by increasing its power at the expense of rival groups of Hawks. In economic terms the judgement that Hawks may make is that the benefits of resorting to large-scale violence (war) will be greater than the costs (for them that is) and they are most likely to arrive at that judgement either when they are faced by stagnant/declining output (so it pays to eliminate other Hawks and grab their Doves) or when it seems overall production is rising so fast that there are huge gains to be made by trying to eliminate the competition. It's at this point that memes or ideology if you will can play a crucial role in the way it shapes the Hawks' assessment. The German elite took what was by objective standards an insanely risky decision in 1914 partly because they had come to see the world in a way that made the economic growth of places such as Russia seem a threat rather than an opportunity. Since 1945 not only has economic growth exceeded population (that's been true ever since the 1740s) the Hawks have realised their interests are not served by violent competition but rather by cooperation. That's both good and bad news for the Doves - mainly good of course. One critical factor is the way the wars of 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 affected and killed all levels of society, including elites, and left a huge psychological mark - anyone who has been to Verdun or Thiepval will recognise this. I don't think this is necessarily permanent though. Steve Davies From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 30 22:12:41 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:12:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Greg Benford on climate change and Crichton In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130134724.019a3a48@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130134724.019a3a48@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130161144.01b1f038@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Wow, this post took 2hours and 20 minutes to get through. Hitech or what, d0000Dz? Damien Broderick From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 30 22:12:09 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:12:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <20050130220827.M89131@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Dear Hubert, I wish the author: Modris Eksteins of _Walking Since Daybreak_ interviewed you for his historical vignettes. His stories displayed a little wider variation of German responses after the war, than your personal experiences (thank you so much for that). That is, the type of responses of which you wrote (Stunde Null, vacuum) plus negation and disbelief, anger, confusion. He said that he didn't see any kind of collective guilt, though, so I wonder if these differences depended on specific places where your family and he (the author) were located in Germany, or maybe he went through Germany too quickly to know it well. The author did a superb job showing the ironies, and the very gray (certainly not black-and-white), of the events, which sometimes made it impossible to know who was victim and perpetrator. I recommend this book to you. Amara From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 30 23:19:16 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:19:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <0aca616fb00089023d0107ca41bd9d4e@mac.com> References: <200501280809.j0S89wZs005992@mail-core.space2u.com> <2c6ca98111c9c3a70fdf27bc7c51bcd8@mac.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050130125500.07358eb0@mail.popido.com> <0aca616fb00089023d0107ca41bd9d4e@mac.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130171715.01a42ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:05 PM 1/30/2005 -0800, samantha wrote: >Globalization that is more about hegemony than abundance just isn't good >enough. ... Running about attempting to bully the world under >protestations of caring will not do. This is a perception that many USians just don't seem able to acquire or find sympathy with (although I gained it largely from US sources, always the paradox). Damien Broderick From gregburch at gregburch.net Sun Jan 30 23:24:34 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:24:34 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Amara Graps > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 3:34 PM > To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > Cc: amara at amara.com > Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom > > > > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ > > Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? > > With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep > at night, or get out of bed in the morning? > > > Amara Yes, it's pretty bad when reliably anti-American PBS does a report like this. What if it's true? A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those people just shut up with their negativity about Hitler and Hirohito? How can they sleep at night or get out of bed in the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" GB From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Jan 30 23:43:20 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:43:20 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] PBS turns into CSS [was: The Force of Human Freedom] References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <005e01c50725$7b615d50$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Amara Graps" >> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ > > Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? > > With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep > at night, or get out of bed in the morning? It's worse than that, Amara. PBS (I now call them CSS, to be uttered with a fowl sneer) has recently caved in over the dilemma over imaginary cartoon characters' sexual orientations, and pulled their support of some real families (e.g., a family that was headed by two lesbian women who are join in civil union in Vermont). Culture Wars Pull Buster Into the Fray By JULIE SALAMON Published: January 27, 2005 http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/27/arts/television/27bust.html?oref=login Culture Wars Pull Buster Into the Fray By JULIE SALAMON Published: January 27, 2005 Wayne Godwin, chief operating officer of PBS, got a bit tangled as he tried to explain the PBS stance on gay characters appearing on children's television shows. "In fairness I would have to say a gay character is not one we would not include," he said, and then clarified. "The fact that a character may or may not be gay is not a reason why they should or should not be part of this series." Yet on Tuesday PBS decided not to distribute to its roughly 350 PBS stations an episode of "Postcards From Buster," which was scheduled for Feb. 2 and included lesbian mothers, even though a few days earlier PBS officials, among them PBS's president, Pat Mitchell, viewed the episode and called it appropriate. That was before Education Secretary Margaret Spellings denounced the program, starring Buster Baxter, a cute animated rabbit who until now has been known primarily as a close friend of Arthur, the world's most famous aardvark. Ms. Spellings said many parents would not want children exposed to a lesbian life style. Buster joined another cartoon character, SpongeBob SquarePants, as a focus of the nation's culture wars. SpongeBob was recently attacked by Christian groups for being pro-homosexual, though SpongeBob's creator said it was all a misinterpretation. Buster's offense was appearing in "Sugartime!," the undistributed "Postcards From Buster" show, in which he visits children living in Vermont whose parents are a lesbian couple. Civil unions are allowed in Vermont. "Postcards From Buster" is a spinoff of "Arthur" that combines live action and animation and went on the air a year ago. In the series, aimed at young elementary schoolchildren, Buster travels to 24 different states with his father and sends video postcards home. Buster appears briefly onscreen, but mainly narrates these live-action segments, which show real children and how they live. One episode featured a family with five children, living in a trailer in Virginia, all sharing one room. In another, Buster visits a Mormon family in Utah. He has dropped in on fundamentalist Christians and Muslims as well as American Indians and Hmong. He has shown the lives of children who have only one parent, and those who live with grandparents. Marc Brown, creator of "Arthur" and "Postcards From Buster," said in a statement: "I am disappointed by PBS's decision not to distribute the 'Postcards From Buster' 'Sugartime!' episode to public television stations. What we are trying to do in the series is connect kids with other kids by reflecting their lives. In some episodes, as in the Vermont one, we are validating children who are seldom validated. We believe that 'Postcards >From Buster' does this in a very natural way and, as always, from the point of view of children." Jeanne Hopkins, a spokeswoman for the show's producer, WGBH-TV of Boston, added, "We feel it's important that we not exclude kids because of what their family structure looks like." WGBH plans to broadcast the episode in March and offer it to other PBS stations. Like the grown-ups in most of the episodes, the lesbian mothers in the "Sugartime!" segment are mainly background. "The concern really was that there's a point where background becomes foreground," Mr. Godwin said. "No matter if the parents were intended to be background, with this specific item in this particular program they might simply be foreground because of press attention to it and parental attention to it." The question is, does the episode violate the grant under which WGBH received federal funds? Mr. Godwin said, "The presence of a couple headed by two mothers would not be appropriate curricular purpose that PBS should provide." The grant specifies the programs "should be designed to appeal to all of America's children by providing them with content and characters with which they can identify." In addition, the grant says, "Diversity will be incorporated into the fabric of the series to help children understand and respect differences and learn to live in a multicultural society." Brigid Sullivan, vice president for children's programming at WGBH, has been producing children's shows for 20 years, including "Arthur," for many years the top-rated children's show. "This asked for a project on diversity to all of America's children," she said. "We took it seriously and thought that with 'Arthur,' the No. 1 show on television for kids for years, we had something to draw kids in. Buster is Arthur's best friend, the child of divorce, he has asthma. Children sympathize with him. We had a breakthrough format, this animated bunny with his camera getting live-action sequence. Not to present a make-believe world of diversity but a real world." Explaining the goal of the show, Ms. Sullivan said: "We want to reflect all of America's children." "This is not about their parents," she said. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Sun Jan 30 23:50:14 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:50:14 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: One approach: just quit watching TV. Sometimes cr*p gets through anyway, but I'm trying to make my life less stressful, as stress is a killer. Especially when one can be pretty sure the hammering is deliberate... :( Regards, MB On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Amara Graps wrote: > > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ > > Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? > > With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep > at night, or get out of bed in the morning? > > From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 31 00:34:17 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:34:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Transhuman" (1953) Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> by the delightful Virgil Finlay: http://www.angelfire.com/ct/lulu/indexJ.html From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 31 00:40:25 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:40:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was-isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bb43149fe35fae6a1ef93eddc8bb772@mac.com> On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Greg Burch wrote: > I don't understand your position, in which you feel justified in > making the bitterest criticisms of the policies advocated by others, > but repeatedly retreat to the statement that you have no solution to > offer. Is it required that one has an alternative proposal before being able to offer a worthwhile critique? If so then please explain the necessity. If not then it appears that this part of your argument is not relevant and only serves to dismiss the critique without further examination. - samantha From gregburch at gregburch.net Mon Jan 31 00:47:07 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 18:47:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: As a general principle, it?s a very good idea to not ingest chemicals that kill cells in your body or cloud your thinking, bind up your limbs so that they have no mobility, or to allow other people to painfully insert foreign objects into your body, cut you open and slice out parts of your body. But when accident or disease strikes, every one of these things in the preceding list of horribles may be not only the right thing to do but may in fact be the only way to avoid more serious harm or even death. But some people will avoid the rationally best therapy because they fear the pain or simple psychological invasiveness of the procedures that are required to stop the course of a disease or repair the result of an injury. The perfectly rational avoidance of things like situations in which you allow someone else to knock you unconscious and cut you up stands in the way of necessary medical intervention. Perhaps others will combine this loathing of the pain and invasion of medical procedures with guilt over true or false beliefs that they have brought the accident or sickness on themselves. More rationally, some people in some situations may choose to avoid a prescribed therapy because there is a risk that it may not work and may in fact make them more ill. But the resolution of all these fears must be based on a rational weighing of risks and benefits. If one has cancer, radiation or chemical therapy that in the interim makes you quite ill may in fact be the most rational choice. If such radical therapies are the only hope, then the patient must be very vigilant of their health, and very careful to learn as much as possible about the course of treatment. But they have to undergo the therapy if they want their health restored. Simply avoiding surgery in every situation because it involves ?men with knives,? or a cast on a limb with a broken bone in every situation because it involves ?binding up my limbs,? or strong medicine in every situation because it involves ?chemicals that kill cells in my body? is irrational per se. GB From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 31 00:59:42 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 00:59:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was - isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205013009477dd964e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <005b01c506d4$f8105320$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> <470a3c5205013009477dd964e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41FD82FE.4030101@neopax.com> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >The question was not asked to me, but I will try answering. >Greg, you are correct in the sense that younger immigrant generations >are probably MORE inclined to religiously-motivated violence than the >older generations. In my opinion the simpler explanation the young >have seen the old making an effort to become integrated in european >society, and not achieving it (they still have worse jobs and living >conditions than the average). So they feel powerless and seek an >identity they can live with in the religion of their grandfathers. >A solution? Simple, cure the disease and not the symptom. >G. > >On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 09:36:41 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > >>It seems clear that there is a large population of unassimilated Muslims in Europe. Based on my own research, I conclude that the large, younger segment of this population is increasingly radicalized and inclined to religiously-motivated violence. Do you agree? If so, do you have any proposed solution to this? >> >> >_______________________________________________ > > The disease is multiculturalism - the idea that it is OK to *not* assimilate. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 31 01:00:21 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:00:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Greg Benford on climate change and Crichton In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130161144.01b1f038@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130134724.019a3a48@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050130161144.01b1f038@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41FD8325.40103@neopax.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > Wow, this post took 2hours and 20 minutes to get through. Hitech or > what, d0000Dz? > I should be so lucky. Sometimes my posts don't appear for twelve hours or more. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 31 01:12:24 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:12:24 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130190354.01bc44c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 05:24 PM 1/30/2005 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ > > > > Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? > > > > With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep > > at night, or get out of bed in the morning? > > > > > > Amara > >Yes, it's pretty bad when reliably anti-American PBS does a report like >this. What if it's true? > >A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those people just >shut up with their negativity about Hitler and Hirohito? How can they >sleep at night or get out of bed in the morning with all that >fear-mongering?!?!" Hang on, this is a rather different kind of story isn't it? Muslims hither and yon =/= a mad dictator with plans for world conquest. The threat might well be real, but as Steve Davies and others have argued it derives from different drivers. What worries me is that the analogy looks closer to: < circa 1933: "Won't those people just shut up with their negativity about Jews and gypsies all around the place? How can they sleep at night or get out of bed in the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" > That would not have been the most helpful response, either, but it places the burden of proof where it belongs, and foreshadows something terrible for the stigmatized groups. Damien Broderick From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Jan 31 01:24:28 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:24:28 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 In-Reply-To: <003b01c50716$3b1d7b70$c55f8351@oemcomputer> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050130125050.034adec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050130194548.03352ec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 09:54 PM 30/01/05 +0000, Steve Davies wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Henson" > > >From Amara Graps snip >I would broadly agree with that but it isn't enough by itself. Wars can >often arise towards the end of long periods of growth when the prospects >would seem very good. Actual situation or what should be does not matter. What is important to this mechanism is forward prospects as seen by the population. Now it is dicey to try to figure out what is activating psychological mechanisms adapted to stone age hunter gatherers. I don't know the actual economic situation before WW I but I will predict that whatever it was, the population in the state that started the war had a dim view of future prospects. The US civil war started in conditions of no worse than average economic conditions for the times. But the (white) population of the southern states could see that slavery was going to go one way or another. And they were right about their future economic prospects without slaves. The case is fair that the south *never* recovered. >The Great War of 1914-1918 broke out after what was >the longest and most rapid period of sustained intensive growth in human >history till then. I would supplement Keith's argument with one drawn from >economics and the use of game theory to model aggregate human behaviour. This is neat analysis, but if you are going to make a case to me, you are going to have to show how the psychological Hawk/Dove traits evolved in stone age hunter gatherer tribes where there just wasn't a way to accumulate wealth. >Historically there are two ways of getting wealth, by production or trade >and by force. These translate into the two strategies of Hawk (predation) >and Dove (cooperation/production). If everyone is a Hawk no wealth is snip most of Hawks and Doves. >However the other time when conflict is most likely is precisely when growth >seems to be opening up unlimited opportunities. Here the temptation is for >one set of Hawks to try to capture as much as possible of the new revenue by >increasing its power at the expense of rival groups of Hawks. In economic >terms the judgement that Hawks may make is that the benefits of resorting to >large-scale violence (war) will be greater than the costs (for them that is) >and they are most likely to arrive at that judgement either when they are >faced by stagnant/declining output (so it pays to eliminate other Hawks and >grab their Doves) or when it seems overall production is rising so fast that >there are huge gains to be made by trying to eliminate the competition. It's >at this point that memes or ideology if you will can play a crucial role in >the way it shapes the Hawks' assessment. There was a time many years ago when I thought the content of a meme was important. For some things, like chipping rocks it is. But for wars, *anything* will do. Consider the long ears and the short ears, as arbitrary a distinction as can be made. The Easter Islanders killed about 95% of their populations off over totally arbitrary reasons. (And the real reason--that they had destroyed the environment and were starving.) >The German elite took what was by >objective standards an insanely risky decision in 1914 partly because they >had come to see the world in a way that made the economic growth of places >such as Russia seem a threat rather than an opportunity. In other words, they *felt* they were facing bleak times. That's enough to activate war mode in a hunter gatherer tribe and we have not lost those mechanisms. Incidentally, mechanisms that worked fine in the stone age as ultimate limits on population might be very poorly adapted to more modern times. In my paper I cite Steven LeBlanc's studies of wars among the corn farmers of the American Southwest. Their response was to enter a social/psychological/physical trap that resulted in the 24 out of 27 groups dying out. >Since 1945 not only has economic growth exceeded population (that's been >true ever since the 1740s) the Hawks have realised their interests are not >served by violent competition but rather by cooperation. That's both good >and bad news for the Doves - mainly good of course. One critical factor is >the way the wars of 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 affected and killed all levels >of society, including elites, and left a huge psychological mark - anyone >who has been to Verdun or Thiepval will recognise this. I don't think this >is necessarily permanent though. WW I was at least as much of a psychological mark generator than WW II. And yet, 21 years later they went at it again. It has been almost three times as long from WW II to now. Many people have made a connection between the hard economic times of the 20 and the rise of the war mode Nazi memes. My only addition is to model what happened in terms of evolved psychological responses to tight resources by hunter gatherer tribes over a few million years. And to make the claim that those mechanisms are still with us. :-( I might note that the connection between hard economic times and war mode was understood in practical terms right after WW II when the victor countries went to considerable effort to jump starting the European economy. Keith Henson From dethezier at hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 01:37:14 2005 From: dethezier at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?TS4gRGUgVGjpemllcg==?=) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:37:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: First reactions to transhumanism Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Mon Jan 31 01:46:36 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:46:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050130194413.02ea38a0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> I have no problem getting out of bed in the morning, and don't carry around a whole lot of fear about the world as a background condition. I also don't watch any TV, except for DVDs -- movies and really good series like Six Feet Under and Monk. Amara's comment made me scratch my head. All of which seems to back up your comment, MB. Max At 05:50 PM 1/30/2005, you wrote: >One approach: just quit watching TV. Sometimes cr*p gets through >anyway, but I'm trying to make my life less stressful, as stress is a >killer. > >Especially when one can be pretty sure the hammering is deliberate... >:( > >Regards, >MB > > >On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Amara Graps wrote: > > > > > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ > > > > Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? > > > > With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep > > at night, or get out of bed in the morning? > > > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From fauxever at sprynet.com Mon Jan 31 01:55:01 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:55:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom References: Message-ID: <09ec01c50737$e07225a0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Greg Burch" > Yes, it's pretty bad when reliably anti-American PBS does a report like > this. What if it's true? > A kind-hearted person of good will, circa > 1933: "Won't those people just shut up with their negativity about Hitler > ... Truth be told, Americans were generally negative about *Jews*. Taken from this perspective, negativity about Hitler didn't sound so bad to many Americans. That's the sad part of this story, as well as events such as: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~froomkin/texts/m3.html > ... and Hirohito? How can they sleep at night or get out of bed in the > morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" As for WWII and Pearl Harbor, I am no expert, but I've read enough to know that "the facts" as were presented to us at school in the 1950s and 1960s left out controversies that are still igniting: http://www.visualstatistics.net/web%20Visual%20Statistics%20Illustrated/Visual%20Statistics%20Illustrated/emperor%20hirohito.htm "Had FDR met Prince Konoye, there might have been no Pearl Harbor, no Pacific war, no Hiroshima, no Nagasaki, no Korea, no Vietnam. How many of our fathers and uncles, brothers and friends, might still be alive?" http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25637 It happened before I was born, but my father's youngest brother was one of those casualties in WWII. And whatever really happened with WWII and Hirohito, the USA wasn't exactly a model democratic country, with its segregated armies and imprisoned citizens of Japanese descent. In any case, WWII was not a war fought pre-emptively, so one can hardly compare it to the situation in Iraq. Olga From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 31 02:05:20 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 02:05:20 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Transhuman" (1953) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41FD9260.4020108@neopax.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > by the delightful Virgil Finlay: > > http://www.angelfire.com/ct/lulu/indexJ.html > Complete with eight point star -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Jan 31 02:05:41 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:05:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050130125050.034adec0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <003b01c50716$3b1d7b70$c55f8351@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <41FD9275.D1FD91C@mindspring.com> The following short article complements Mr. Davies' comments. It ends well stating, "But it is good to know that in this context at least, nice guys do not come last. They do just as well as the nasty guys and, indeed, as the wary majority." Terry < http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3576344 > Human evolution Games people play Jan 20th 2005 >From The Economist print edition The co-operative and the selfish are equally successful at getting what they want MANY people, it is said, regard life as a game. Increasingly, both biologists and economists are tending to agree with them. Game theory, a branch of mathematics developed in the 1940s and 1950s by John von Neumann and John Nash, has proved a useful theoretical tool in the study of the behaviour of animals, both human and non-human. ...more at URL... ***** Steve Davies wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Keith Henson" > > >From Amara Graps > > > > > >Now you, being the meme-guy, probably have a meme-explanation, > > >yes? Maybe those people carrying the meme-of-great-beastliness > > >usually died, and left those carrying memes-of-less-beastliness > > >survived and reproduced? > > > > While memes are in the causal chain leading to wars, any xenophobic meme > > will do to work the population, particularly the warriors, up onto a > > killing frenzy. > > > > The key point is that a long time ago predators were no longer effective > in > > limiting the population of hominids in our line. > > > > Ultimately we were forced to become our own predators. War is the > result > > when the population exceeds the resources, or more correctly, war happens > > when hominids who are good at anticipating the future see things looking > > bleak. > > > > Perception of a bleak future activates a psychological mechanism that > > increases the gain on the class of xenophobic memes. *Some* meme will get > > enough influence to motivate the population. In the case of Easter > Island, > > it was the "long ears" vs the "short ears." (All of the people were > > related having come from a founder stock of perhaps 20 people.) > > > > So, why has Europe stay in "war off" mode for the last 60 years? Because > > population growth stayed below economic growth. > > > > That's also why the IRA lost the support of the Irish population. About > 30 > > years ago the birth rate in Ireland took a major drop. Eventually > economic > > growth got ahead of population growth. Rising income per capita maps into > > good times for our hunter gatherer ancestors, time to hunt and raise kids > > rather than attempt to kill off the neighboring tribe. > > > > I recently finished a 20 page paper on this depressing subject. Since is > > it for publication, I can't just post it, but I can send people who want a > > copy. It would be ok to quote short parts and comment on them if you > want. > > > > Keith Henson > > I would broadly agree with that but it isn't enough by itself. Wars can > often arise towards the end of long periods of growth when the prospects > would seem very good. The Great War of 1914-1918 broke out after what was > the longest and most rapid period of sustained intensive growth in human > history till then. I would supplement Keith's argument with one drawn from > economics and the use of game theory to model aggregate human behaviour. > > Historically there are two ways of getting wealth, by production or trade > and by force. These translate into the two strategies of Hawk (predation) > and Dove (cooperation/production). If everyone is a Hawk no wealth is > produced and we're in a Hobbesian state of nature. If everyone is a Dove, > everyone gains. Problem is the ideal situation is to be the one Hawk among a > lot of Doves. Playing out this game in a multi-shot, multi-player format > seems to lead to a stable equilibrium of 90% Doves to 10% Hawks, hence the > historic pattern of a productive society and a parasitic elite. It's in the > interests of the Hawks to establish a local monopoly of predation and to > protect your own Doves. That way they become more productive and there's > more for the Hawks to skim off. (A common problem is that the Hawks become > too greedy and take too much). In the past Europe gained because it was > politically divided - there was competition between sets of Hawks rather > than a single one. After the 17th century a set of tacit rules developed to > control this competition. In the 20th century you have a struggle to see if > any one set of Hawks can establish itself in a hegemonic position in Europe > and by extension within the world economic system. > > Competition between states and their ruling classes (Hawks) or between > ruling classes and aspirants to that position is more likely when population > growth excedes economic growth and, as Keith points out, these are > conditions where memes that lead to conflict will be more influential. > Ireland and Yugoslavia both illustrate this. Yugoslavia also shows another > thing that has been modelled by Schelling and others, that given a divided > population you only need a small minority on either side that is committed > to violence for an unravelling of civil peace and a polarisation of the > parts of the community - Lebanon and the Indian Partition both show this. > Again economic decline makes this much more likely. > > However the other time when conflict is most likely is precisely when growth > seems to be opening up unlimited opportunities. Here the temptation is for > one set of Hawks to try to capture as much as possible of the new revenue by > increasing its power at the expense of rival groups of Hawks. In economic > terms the judgement that Hawks may make is that the benefits of resorting to > large-scale violence (war) will be greater than the costs (for them that is) > and they are most likely to arrive at that judgement either when they are > faced by stagnant/declining output (so it pays to eliminate other Hawks and > grab their Doves) or when it seems overall production is rising so fast that > there are huge gains to be made by trying to eliminate the competition. It's > at this point that memes or ideology if you will can play a crucial role in > the way it shapes the Hawks' assessment. The German elite took what was by > objective standards an insanely risky decision in 1914 partly because they > had come to see the world in a way that made the economic growth of places > such as Russia seem a threat rather than an opportunity. > > Since 1945 not only has economic growth exceeded population (that's been > true ever since the 1740s) the Hawks have realised their interests are not > served by violent competition but rather by cooperation. That's both good > and bad news for the Doves - mainly good of course. One critical factor is > the way the wars of 1914-1918 and 1939-1945 affected and killed all levels > of society, including elites, and left a huge psychological mark - anyone > who has been to Verdun or Thiepval will recognise this. I don't think this > is necessarily permanent though. > > Steve Davies -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From gregburch at gregburch.net Mon Jan 31 02:11:33 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:11:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom[was-isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: <0bb43149fe35fae6a1ef93eddc8bb772@mac.com> Message-ID: See my next post (which still hasn't come through to the list after some hours). But to cut through the allegory in that, to condemn one thing is necessarily to promote another. When someone says "No," it is an absolutley legitimate question to ask, "If not this, then what?" Even if the answer is "Nothing," I think asking for the alternative is a legitimate response to relentless criticism. GB > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Samantha > Atkins > Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 6:40 PM > To: ExI chat list > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human > Freedom[was-isAmericafascistyet?] > > > > On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Greg Burch wrote: > > > I don't understand your position, in which you feel justified in > > making the bitterest criticisms of the policies advocated by others, > > but repeatedly retreat to the statement that you have no solution to > > offer. > > > Is it required that one has an alternative proposal before being able > to offer a worthwhile critique? If so then please explain the > necessity. If not then it appears that this part of your argument is > not relevant and only serves to dismiss the critique without further > examination. > > - samantha > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From gregburch at gregburch.net Mon Jan 31 03:16:06 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:16:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130190354.01bc44c8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Damien Broderick > At 05:24 PM 1/30/2005 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > > >A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those people just > >shut up with their negativity about Hitler and Hirohito? How can they > >sleep at night or get out of bed in the morning with all that > >fear-mongering?!?!" > > Hang on, this is a rather different kind of story isn't it? > Muslims hither > and yon =/= a mad dictator with plans for world conquest. The > threat might > well be real, but as Steve Davies and others have argued it derives from > different drivers. What worries me is that the analogy looks closer to: > > < circa 1933: "Won't those people just shut up with their > negativity about > Jews and gypsies all around the place? How can they sleep at > night or get > out of bed in the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" > > > That would not have been the most helpful response, either, but it places > the burden of proof where it belongs, and foreshadows something terrible > for the stigmatized groups. > > Damien Broderick I'll certainly acknowledge there are significant differences between the threat of old-style secular fascism in the 1930s and islamofascism in the 1970s-20??, but I have concluded that we stand in an analogous situation in terms of the world's willingness to wake up to and deal with the threat. As for "stigamatized people" -- go tell it to Theo van Gogh. GB From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Jan 31 04:22:21 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:22:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was-isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: <0bb43149fe35fae6a1ef93eddc8bb772@mac.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050130231558.034a2cd0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 04:40 PM 30/01/05 -0800, samantha wrote: >On Jan 30, 2005, at 10:23 AM, Greg Burch wrote: > >>I don't understand your position, in which you feel justified in making >>the bitterest criticisms of the policies advocated by others, but >>repeatedly retreat to the statement that you have no solution to offer. > >Is it required that one has an alternative proposal before being able to >offer a worthwhile critique? If so then please explain the >necessity. If not then it appears that this part of your argument is not >relevant and only serves to dismiss the critique without further examination. Not a requirement, but certainly better if one has an alternate proposal. I have the same problem myself. I know what the mechanisms are that bring on wars, but the best long term solution, lower birth rate, takes 3 decades to have effect. In ranging around for a solution, one that might work from theory but is way out there would be to swap out the entire population of Iraq for Texans (and other assorted rednecks). It's not impossible, the US used to fly that many people in a month. Both groups would have improved prospects which should shut off war mode. Keith Henson From fauxever at sprynet.com Mon Jan 31 04:25:53 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:25:53 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <6.2.0.14.2.20050130194413.02ea38a0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <000901c5074c$f41e42e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Max More" >I have no problem getting out of bed in the morning, and don't carry around >a whole lot of fear about the world as a background condition. I also don't >watch any TV, except for DVDs -- movies and really good series like Six >Feet Under and Monk. Amara's comment made me scratch my head. And, Max, your comment made me scratch my head. I am a movie buff myself - so I can relate to the movies and good series part. But television is an important medium (and not disconnected from the Internet). One gets a sense of our culture and its concerns watching television (and being connected to the Internet). If I were the head of [just about any organization I can think of] I would think it imperative for me to be in touch with what's going on in the general culture. It may not always be provocative or pretty, but important IMO. Unfortunately, Bush has set a terrible precedent: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/143851_thomas15.html Due to the brevity of our time on this planet, we all must make our individual choices, certainly. I have chosen not to listen to popular music (except when it comes already packaged in those movies and good series). Television has gotten deeper and wider (even as FoxNews has rendered it shallower and narrower). It is eye-opening to be able to get Canadian news, for example - and see how differently they may report their news and what they choose to feature. This is the electronic age, and the medium is still the message. Olga From tankdoc at adelphia.net Mon Jan 31 04:35:56 2005 From: tankdoc at adelphia.net (tankdoc) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:35:56 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] PBS turns into CSS [was: The Force of HumanFreedom] References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <005e01c50725$7b615d50$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000a01c5074e$5b01df20$7450eb44@firstbase> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olga Bourlin" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 6:43 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] PBS turns into CSS [was: The Force of HumanFreedom] > From: "Amara Graps" > >>> http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ >> >> Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? >> >> With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep >> at night, or get out of bed in the morning? > > It's worse than that, Amara. PBS (I now call them CSS, to be uttered with > a fowl sneer) has recently caved in over the dilemma over imaginary > cartoon characters' sexual orientations, and pulled their support of some > real families (e.g., a family that was headed by two lesbian women who are > join in civil union in Vermont). > > Culture Wars Pull Buster Into the Fray > By JULIE SALAMON > Published: January 27, 2005 > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/27/arts/television/27bust.html?oref=login Thats all fine and good - but why would you expect the general tax base of America to support this? If you want this agenda pushed foward then finding private funding seems the right way to go. Cladari From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 31 05:42:16 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:42:16 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Transhuman" (1953) In-Reply-To: <41FD9260.4020108@neopax.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41FD9260.4020108@neopax.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130234117.01b7a008@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >>http://www.angelfire.com/ct/lulu/indexJ.html >Complete with eight point star No. Complete with spider grapheme, including head. Damien Broderick From pgptag at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 06:44:27 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:44:27 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom[was-isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: References: <0bb43149fe35fae6a1ef93eddc8bb772@mac.com> Message-ID: <470a3c52050130224466def58e@mail.gmail.com> I also prefer constructive criticism like "I don't like A, and here is why I think B would be a much better alternative", but I think your statement is too strong. I don't likr the heat death of the universe, and I have no solution to promote. I can only hope one will be found. But I still don't like it. G. On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 20:11:33 -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > See my next post (which still hasn't come through to the list after some hours). But to cut through the allegory in that, to condemn one thing is necessarily to promote another. When someone says "No," it is an absolutley legitimate question to ask, "If not this, then what?" Even if the answer is "Nothing," I think asking for the alternative is a legitimate response to relentless criticism. > > GB From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 31 07:55:59 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:55:59 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Force of Human Freedom [was-isAmericafascistyet?] In-Reply-To: <41FD4643.FFE0B43D@mindspring.com> References: <000f01c506e9$3ad06650$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> <41FD4643.FFE0B43D@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050131075559.GN1404@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 01:40:35PM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > The following link is an excellent review of Al-Qaeda in Europe > country-by-country. Other links in this Frontline program explain The following link claims Al Qaeda doesn't exist. http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/1208 Why should we believe the one, or the other? It's the web of millions of lies. I personally don't give a damn. > how the operational nature of bin Laden's network has morphed into > a social movement. The threat is not imaginary no matter the hype Threat to whom? To me personally? I don't think so -- I drive to work by car. > by the media, the Bush administration, and other governments. > > < http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ > The only threat I see is in politicians using fear to control those they claim to represent. We've always been at war with Oceania bin Laden. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Mon Jan 31 08:10:07 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:10:07 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom Message-ID: <20050131080628.M21880@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> > > http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/front/map/ Amara: > Sheesh...!! Now PBS too?? > > With that relentless hammering of fear, how do you folks sleep > at night, or get out of bed in the morning? Greg Burch: >Yes, it's pretty bad when reliably anti-American PBS does a >report like this. What if it's true? I give no more thought to Al Qaeda than to the trash in my town that I wish the townspeople would learn to recycle. I have many threats in my life. Al Qaeda is small one compared to many larger ones. Do you recognize seige mentality, Greg? It steals from your life. I don't understand how any life-loving person can accept living their life looking over their shoulder every minute. It makes you old very fast. Amara www.amara.com From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 31 08:18:05 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:18:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Greg Benford on climate change and Crichton In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130161144.01b1f038@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130134724.019a3a48@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050130161144.01b1f038@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050131081805.GO1404@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 04:12:41PM -0600, damien wrote: > Wow, this post took 2hours and 20 minutes to get through. Hitech or what, > d0000Dz? With a mailing list this size there's no reason for a turnaround time more than a few 10 seconds, on vintage (otherwise unloaded) hardware. Unless the problems are at your end? This list is slow, but 2.5 hours?! -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From humania at t-online.de Mon Jan 31 10:04:15 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:04:15 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 References: <20050130220827.M89131@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <007201c5077c$3c4cea60$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Dear Amara, the subject of collective guilt was suppressed in public discussion til the 1980s when the us tv movie series "Holocaust" had a tremendous impact on the german society. Since that event and after some better documentations - like Claude Lanzmann's "Shoah" video - the complete horror of the holocaust creeped into the public discussion. Reasonable persons tell you that there is no such thing like a collective guilt, even holocaust survivors say it. Instead, contemporary german citizens should play their individual role to prevent this from ever happening again. Well, I guess everybody has to find his own answer if he feels gulity being born into a society that has permitted Ausschwitz to happen. I think it is important to realize that my personal experiences as a boy and adolescent (age 6 to 18) with WWII veterans in my home town I described yesterday, have been edited by the knowledge and experience of the 50 year old man I am today. When I made those experiences - veterans breaking down and bursting out in tears while talking about their killings, drunken boneheads remembering and raucously shouting their SS songs, letting the nazi dog in themselves loose - were singular and tiny moments that only as a compressed "story" like the one I told yesterday, make an impact at all. Witnessing these events of veterans being careless about collective or even personal guilt or being depressed, and endlessly persued with the horrible scenes in their heads . . .was impressive, sure, but as a youngster I was not able to see the historical or psychological dimensions, I can see today. So, my recollections are far from being authentic, I'm afraid. What you say about Modris Ekstein seems to give a broader and more realistic picture. But it certainly depends on the date these interviews were made. In the 1960s people were too busy earning enough money for a volkswagen and making holidays in italy to get bothered with any collective guilt question, while from the mid 80s on, you could get better answers though many of the active perpetrators were already dead by that time. The best documentation about the holocaust, as far as I can remember, is the 9 hour video "Shoah" by Claude Lanzmann?, appr. 1985. Herzliche Gruesse nach Roma Hubert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amara Graps" To: Cc: Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:12 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 > > Dear Hubert, > > I wish the author: Modris Eksteins of _Walking Since Daybreak_ > interviewed you for his historical vignettes. His stories > displayed a little wider variation of German responses after the > war, than your personal experiences (thank you so much for that). > That is, the type of responses of which you wrote (Stunde Null, > vacuum) plus negation and disbelief, anger, confusion. He said > that he didn't see any kind of collective guilt, though, so I > wonder if these differences depended on specific places where > your family and he (the author) were located in Germany, or > maybe he went through Germany too quickly to know it well. The > author did a superb job showing the ironies, and the very gray > (certainly not black-and-white), of the events, which sometimes > made it impossible to know who was victim and perpetrator. > I recommend this book to you. > > Amara > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 31 10:21:31 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:21:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: References: <20050130212345.M81258@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 05:24:34PM -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > Yes, it's pretty bad when reliably anti-American PBS does a report like this. What if it's true? > > A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those > people just shut up with their negativity about Hitler and > Hirohito? How can they sleep at night or get out of bed in > the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" A: You're a Bushist! B: I'm not! You're an appeasnik. I'm fighting Islamofascists! A: You're a Neocon Religious Fundie Extremist. B: Am not! A: Are too. B: Am not! A: Neener, neener. Etc. Come on, I can get a better level of discourse at the local bar. Let's agree to disagree, preferrably off-list. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 10:45:05 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 02:45:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? Message-ID: <20050131104505.45244.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" wrote: > Also, Spike, I hate to say this, but I've always > avoided sushi, so far, because of concerns about raw fish. Maybe I would eat irradiated sushi. Your reference to irradiation suggest that your concern is bacterial contamination. Rawness alone doesn't cause this, or all sushi would be dead in the water, 'cause it's definitely raw. Oldness and unhygenic handling/processing cause this. But the fish used in sushi is uniformly as fresh as is humanly possible, and the handling is like, buy, wrap, convey to the restaurant, put in fridge, take out of fridge, unwrap, slice into slivers, commingle with various other tasty bits, eat. (Sometimes the "put in fridge, take out of fridge" steps are skipped.) All achieved so soon after the fish is caught that you could probably clone a tuna from your sashimi. If texture is an issue, take note: lox, though often referred to as 'smoked', is in fact cold processed in a brine, it's texture indistinguishable from raw. So if you've had lox, enjoyed it, and had no problem with its texture, then without realizing it you're already a sushi fan. Believe me, I've had both, lox and salmon sashimi. There's not a lick of difference, texturewise. A rose by any other name. Didn't know that about lox, did you? Puts a whole new light on the sushi business. Anyway, whatever trepidation you might have will almost certainly pass with the first bite. Gotta go. I have other fish to fr.... Sorry. Best, Jeff Davis "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it--no matter if I have said it--unless it agrees with your own reason and your common sense." Buddha __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 31 11:26:44 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:26:44 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131104505.45244.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050131104505.45244.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050131112644.GC1404@leitl.org> On Mon, Jan 31, 2005 at 02:45:05AM -0800, Jeff Davis wrote: > Your reference to irradiation suggest that your > concern is bacterial contamination. Rawness alone Google for anisakiasis, or just for sushi/sashimi and parasites. There are some simple rules to follow, and then eating raw fish is reasonably safe. Notice that tuna's bright red might mean it's very fresh, or, rather more likely, gassed with carbon monoxide. Another potential issue to watch out for is how you react to glutamate (I personally think there shouldn't be any added glutamate in a dish, ever, but some people like it). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gregburch at gregburch.net Mon Jan 31 11:55:30 2005 From: gregburch at gregburch.net (Greg Burch) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:55:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Eugen Leitl > > On Sun, Jan 30, 2005 at 05:24:34PM -0600, Greg Burch wrote: > > > Yes, it's pretty bad when reliably anti-American PBS does a > report like this. What if it's true? > > > > A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those > > people just shut up with their negativity about Hitler and > > Hirohito? How can they sleep at night or get out of bed in > > the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" > > A: You're a Bushist! > B: I'm not! You're an appeasnik. I'm fighting Islamofascists! > A: You're a Neocon Religious Fundie Extremist. > B: Am not! > A: Are too. > B: Am not! > A: Neener, neener. > > Etc. > > Come on, I can get a better level of discourse at the local bar. > > Let's agree to disagree, preferrably off-list. 1. Agreed. 2. I still marvel at your command of language, Eugen -- one of the things that drew me into this forum over a decade ago. GB From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Jan 31 12:16:39 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:16:39 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050131080628.M21880@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> References: <20050131080628.M21880@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Amara Graps wrote: > > Do you recognize seige mentality, Greg? It steals from your > life. I don't understand how any life-loving person can accept > living their life looking over their shoulder every minute. It > makes you old very fast. > Right. And this is why I no longer watch TV. I will not, if I can avoid it, fill my mental life with fear and garbage. When my SO was here, TV was on a *lot*. Perhaps it is the visual representations - "living technicolor" - that is one of my problems. I re-see the pictures when I close my eyes to sleep ... and then don't sleep. However, I found even the sounds, the background music, seemed designed to get my pulse racing. IMHO that is not healthy. Regards, MB From natasha at natasha.cc Mon Jan 31 13:21:38 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:21:38 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Transhuman" (1953) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050131071802.03e62138@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Excellent! Great find. I thought my Dante find was pretty darn good. I think the more we learn, the more we will find numerous references to transhumans and transhumanism outside our current references. In my book (The Transhumanists) (in the works), I hope to have a lot of fun with the history of the word and how our modern transhumanism and view of the transhuman (circa FM-2030, Damien Broderick, Max More) will have a lot of impact. What is so interesting to me is that FM and Max separately never heard of the word before using it themselves. Was that true with you as well Damien? Cheers! Natasha At 06:34 PM 1/30/2005, you wrote: >by the delightful Virgil Finlay: > >http://www.angelfire.com/ct/lulu/indexJ.html > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Mon Jan 31 15:56:07 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:56:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] is eliezer here yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131104505.45244.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050131104505.45244.qmail@web60005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FE5517.3010701@pobox.com> Jeff Davis wrote: > --- "Eliezer S. Yudkowsky" wrote: > >> Also, Spike, I hate to say this, but I've always avoided sushi, so >> far, because of concerns about raw fish. Maybe I would eat irradiated >> sushi. > > Your reference to irradiation suggest that your concern is bacterial > contamination. Rawness alone doesn't cause this, or all sushi would be > dead in the water, 'cause it's definitely raw. Oldness and unhygenic > handling/processing cause this. But the fish used in sushi is uniformly > as fresh as is humanly possible, and the handling is like, buy, wrap, > convey to the restaurant, put in fridge, take out of fridge, unwrap, > slice into slivers, commingle with various other tasty bits, eat. > (Sometimes the "put in fridge, take out of fridge" steps are skipped.) > All achieved so soon after the fish is caught that you could probably > clone a tuna from your sashimi. If there's a probability, I wish to avoid it. Even if not all raw fish is contaminated, cooked fish is less likely to be contaminated. Furthermore, even if I've caught a bacterium or two from cooked meat over my life, as long as I can avoid raw fish, I can avoid the particular additional bacteria to be found there. I'm particularly worried about that bug said to lower the intelligence and heighten the risk-taking of mice and cats. > If texture is an issue, take note: lox, though often referred to as > 'smoked', is in fact cold processed in a brine, it's texture > indistinguishable from raw. So if you've had lox, enjoyed it, and had > no problem with its texture, then without realizing it you're already a > sushi fan. Believe me, I've had both, lox and salmon sashimi. There's > not a lick of difference, texturewise. A rose by any other name. I tried lox once as a child and strongly disliked it. > Didn't know that about lox, did you? Puts a whole new light on the > sushi business. Wholly illogical. That would be like saying that I should start drinking wine because I discovered that my mouthwash was 15% alcohol. The correct response, if one fears for one's neurons, is to stop using that mouthwash and use an alcohol-free mouthwash instead. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From fauxever at sprynet.com Mon Jan 31 15:53:58 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:53:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom References: <20050131080628.M21880@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <001901c507ad$13ebbc00$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Amara Graps" > > Do you recognize seige mentality, Greg? It steals from your > life. I don't understand how any life-loving person can accept > living their life looking over their shoulder every minute. It > makes you old very fast. Yes, it's true that this siege mentality is starting to take hold. There is a commercial I've been seeing lately - designed to be helpful to parents. It counsels those parents to "explain what to do in the case of a terror attack." Some of the dialogue "suggests" having the kids go to a neighbor's house and what all. The fact is, shouldn't parents who are away at work or for any other reason ALREADY have a plan in place ... in case they get an aneurysm while they're away, or have a car accident, or are delayed in traffic? Having a plan in place for all these things and more that could happen in the course of a day - and so much more likely than a "terrorist attack" for criminy's sake - wouldn't parents ALREADY have a plan in place. Why much the "terrorist" business? What would be so different? Olga From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 16:40:10 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:40:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Transhuman" (1953) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050131071802.03e62138@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050131164010.14553.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Predictions made in 1953, such as anti-gravity backpacks as a mode of transportation for today, have been unrealized. FM was also a confirmed Pangloss. His predictions for this decade are rather embarrassing. Natasha Vita-More wrote: Excellent! Great find. I thought my Dante find was pretty darn good. I think the more we learn, the more we will find numerous references to transhumans and transhumanism outside our current references. In my book (The Transhumanists) (in the works), I hope to have a lot of fun with the history of the word and how our modern transhumanism and view of the transhuman (circa FM-2030, Damien Broderick, Max More) will have a lot of impact. What is so interesting to me is that FM and Max separately never heard of the word before using it themselves. Was that true with you as well Damien? Cheers! Natasha At 06:34 PM 1/30/2005, you wrote: by the delightful Virgil Finlay: http://www.angelfire.com/ct/lulu/indexJ.html _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 16:48:51 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:48:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <20050131102131.GT1404@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050131164852.67885.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The role of Stalin and Soviet State Security in the rise of Nazism is not discussed enough. Stalin came first, contributing to the installation of Hitler; Stalin sabotaged the anti-Nazi opposition pre-1933; the Soviets also sabotaged the Spanish Civil War. If you wont discuss the Soviet role in WWII & the pre-WWII era more, then discussions of Nazism here (or anywhere else for that matter) are worthless. A kind-hearted person of good will, circa 1933: "Won't those > people just shut up with their negativity about Hitler and > Hirohito? How can they sleep at night or get out of bed in > the morning with all that fear-mongering?!?!" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 17:01:34 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:01:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050129203404.03496d60@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20050131170135.65128.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> After having visited Europe twice, I don't buy it that Europeans are lambie-pies, and Americans are the Great Satanists. The Germans have come a long way, but though the French reject Hitler they largely accept Napoleon, who followed a parallel career. Does anyone here doubt that if Napoleonic France had been able to develop Prussic acid and Zyklon B they would have been used against surplus oppositionists? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dethezier at hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 17:09:02 2005 From: dethezier at hotmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?B?TS4gRGUgVGjpemllcg==?=) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:09:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: First reactions to transhumanism Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Sep 2004, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >The Canadian online magazine VOIR offers a debate between a >transhumanist and a neoluddite, for French speakers to enjoy. The most >interesting thing is reading the many comments left by readers, many >of whom apparently had not been exposed to transhumanism befor. It is >I believe a useful lesson that can be used for better marketing to see >the range of first reactions to transhumanism. http://www.voir.ca/actualite/actualite.aspx?iIDArticle=32418 Hello Giu1i0, You, along with other French speakers, may enjoy reading my critical analysis of my experience with VOIR since it will give you insight into the phenomenon of information manipulation by the media. http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/more/676 For those whose understanding of French is too weak to read it, I will only say this: The lesson is that you should always be aware of how every word you say or write to a journalist, especially one that has a bioLuddite bias, can and will be taken out of context and used against you in his article. Therefore, avoid wild speculation about future technological breakthroughs and focus on your best moral and scientific arguments for human enhancement. More importantly, the best way to promote transhumanism is by honestly stressing the importance of responsibility. -Justice From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 17:52:16 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 09:52:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <001901c507ad$13ebbc00$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050131175217.75440.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Amara Graps" > > > > Do you recognize seige mentality, Greg? It steals from your > > life. I don't understand how any life-loving person can accept > > living their life looking over their shoulder every minute. It > > makes you old very fast. > > Yes, it's true that this siege mentality is starting to take hold. > There is a commercial I've been seeing lately - designed to be > helpful to parents. It counsels those parents to "explain what to > do in the case of a terror attack." Some of the dialogue "suggests" > having the kids go to a neighbor's house and what all. > > The fact is, shouldn't parents who are away at work or for any other > reason ALREADY have a plan in place ... in case they get an aneurysm > while they're away, or have a car accident, or are delayed in > traffic? Having a plan in place for all these things and more that > could happen in the course of a day - and so much more likely than > a "terrorist attack" for criminy's sake - wouldn't parents ALREADY > have a plan in place. Why much the "terrorist" business? What > would be so different? Olga is exactly right here. There is a distinct difference between 'planning' and 'worrying'. When you have a plan for a contingency, you generally worry less about that event happening, because you know you are prepared to handle it. The media makes its fear-mongering work because so few people today are prepared for contingencies. Those that are generally don't worry so much, but get weird looks from people they know who AREN'T prepared, get called 'survivalists' and other epithets. What is wrong with wanting to survive extreme events? That is what evolution is about, isn't it, being one of those that don't get exterminated? Whether its preparing for family health crises, crime, tornadoes, hurricanes, nuclear attack, or terrorism, socialist-corrupted elections, etc... the goal is the same: living through events, not becoming a statistic, enabling your family to get through things. For the same reason you don't get a cryonics contract without having a financial plan. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 31 18:19:47 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:19:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Transhuman" (1953) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050131071802.03e62138@pop-server.austin.rr.com > References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050131071802.03e62138@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050131120715.01a10368@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 07:21 AM 1/31/2005 -0600, Natasha wrote: >I think the more we learn, the more we will find numerous references to >transhumans and transhumanism outside our current references. In this case, the Finlay illo was to the Leinster story with that title. However, the very inadequate source at http://www.jessesword.com/SF/sflastmod.shtml says: The ISFDB gives this ( http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pw.cgi?b0e9f5 ): <The Trans-Human (1953) * Science-Fiction +, December 1953 (1953) , [ed.] Hugo Gernsback , * Monsters and Such (1959) , Murray Leinster , Avon , pb > >What is so interesting to me is that FM and Max separately never heard of >the word before using it themselves. Was that true with you as well Damien? I was reading Teilhard in the early 1960s, and stole it from Sir Julian Huxley's somewhat Teilhardian meditations in NEW BOTTLES FOR OLD WINE. I think I first used it in this sense in a published essay/thinkpiece (in the Aussie tits&ass PLAYBOY-lite magazine MAN!) around 1968 or 1969. Yikes, how the decades swarm by! Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 31 18:36:25 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:36:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] the human race Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050131123518.01d149d8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> [from Guardian Unlimited ? Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005 ] Big sperm race is staged on German reality TV After Big Brother and Jungle Camp, Germans can tune in to a TV reality show this week that breaks new ground in trashiness ... Sperm Race. Twelve men will compete against each other to see which one of them has the "fastest" sperm. The contestants, who include two German celebrities and a health freak, begin by donating sperm in a clinic, say the programme's producers, Endemol. The sperm will then be frozen and sent to the company's studio in Cologne, where the sperm will 'race' towards an egg -- lured by a chemical that encourages them across the finishing line. Three doctors, including a gynaecologist, will be on hand to make sure the sperm behave correctly, while cameras will record it all. As well as laying claim to the title of Germany's most fertile man, the winner will also be given a suitably German reward, a red Porsche. Endemol Germany's president, Boris Brandt, denied on Saturday that Sperm Race represented a new low point in dumbed-down TV. He claimed that the show had a serious scientific purpose. "Sperm Race is serious. Fertility is a big thing in Germany,' he told Germany's Bild newspaper. "About 1,8-million German men are unable to have children because they suffer from poor sperm. And there are disappointed girlfriends and wives, as well as parents who wait in vain for grandchildren." Brandt, whose company is responsible for the German Big Brother , said the cameras would not follow the contestants into the cubicles when they donated sperm. - From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 19:13:22 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 11:13:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <31d7f2e1d87458ca3880550f93476ff6@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Sorry Samantha, but Ned is right here. You can't call a voter turnout of over 60% a 'farcical event' when that exceeds the typical turnout for US elections. In spite of 44 people being killed in violence (including a child suffering from Downs syndrome used as a suicide bomber), the Iraqi elections were an unqualified success, as international observers have all said. Turnout in the shiite and kurdish areas was over 70% according to reports, so it appears the only people who were discouraged from voting by the Sunni terrorists were the Sunni citizens of Iraq. Holy backfires, batman. The mayor of Bagdad has stated that they are going to erect a statue of Bush in the city center as a 'hero of freedom'. Hope his pose isn't the same as Saddams (assuming they use the same pedestal). What successful iraqi elections do is expose the lie of the anti-Americanistas here and elsewhere who claim all sorts of ulterior motives. It will discredit the socialist/internationalist forces here in the US and give further impetus to various "US out of the UN/UN out of the US" campaigns around the US. Now Annan's son has copped to all the charges of corruption on the oil for food scandal. The UN and the european anti-americanistas are going down in flames. Marc Rich, the Clinton pardon recipient, is being implicated as a major player in this criminal enterprise. No surprise there. Word is coming down that the Clintons themselves may be involved. Shall we call this the "Blackwater" scandal? The only farcical events are now any time the UN purports to represent world opinion. --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > I don't see the logic. How can any outcome of that farcical event > say anything relevant about how fascist the US is or is not? Even the > most miraculous outcome would not change the nature of our > government. > > -s > > On Jan 27, 2005, at 6:33 PM, Ned Late wrote: > > > Let's give the coming Iraq election-- and those Iraqi > > elections coming afterwards-- a chance, before we call > > the current administration fascist. If Iraq eventually > > succeeds in transforming into a democracy then the > > Bush administration wins and will not be remembered as > > fascist. > > The victors write the history books. If the Axis had > > won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice and reading in > > German how Hitler vanquished Communism 60 years ago. > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 31 20:14:03 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:14:03 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] "The Transhuman" (1953) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130234117.01b7a008@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050130183352.01a78ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41FD9260.4020108@neopax.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050130234117.01b7a008@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41FE918B.1070702@neopax.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > >>> http://www.angelfire.com/ct/lulu/indexJ.html >> >> Complete with eight point star > > > No. Complete with spider grapheme, including head. > Same eight arm motif. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 31 20:37:45 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:37:45 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] so is America fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131170135.65128.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050131170135.65128.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FE9719.4040003@neopax.com> Ned Late wrote: > After having visited Europe twice, I don't buy it that Europeans are > lambie-pies, and Americans are the Great Satanists. > The Germans have come a long way, but though the French reject Hitler > they largely accept Napoleon, who followed a parallel career. Does > anyone here doubt that if Napoleonic France had been able to develop > Prussic acid and Zyklon B they would have been used against surplus > oppositionists? > Yes, I doubt it. There were none of the systematic massacres of civilians that typified the Nazis. No French versions of the Einsatzgruppen. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Mon Jan 31 20:39:30 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:39:30 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: The Force of Human Freedom In-Reply-To: <001901c507ad$13ebbc00$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050131080628.M21880@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> <001901c507ad$13ebbc00$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: Olga, you are absolutly correct - parents should have talked things over years before - with neighbors as well, so everyone is prepared. When my children were in school we had "alternate" phone numbers - so if a child were taken ill and the parents were unavailable, someone else would come retrieve the child. Any child who is old enough to be home alone should have some guidelines about emergencies, who to call, where to go, etc. Kinda like having a fire drill - or at least a fire escape plan. Geez. Regards, MB On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > Yes, it's true that this siege mentality is starting to take hold. There is > a commercial I've been seeing lately - designed to be helpful to parents. > It counsels those parents to "explain what to do in the case of a terror > attack." Some of the dialogue "suggests" having the kids go to a neighbor's > house and what all. > > The fact is, shouldn't parents who are away at work or for any other reason > ALREADY have a plan in place ... in case they get an aneurysm while they're > away, or have a car accident, or are delayed in traffic? Having a plan in > place for all these things and more that could happen in the course of a > day - and so much more likely than a "terrorist attack" for criminy's sake - > wouldn't parents ALREADY have a plan in place. Why much the "terrorist" > business? What would be so different? > From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 20:39:52 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 12:39:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050131203952.70170.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It doesn't appear many know just how butcherous the Baathist regime was, and the remnants still are. Saddam's regime was a pan-Arab Stalinist one that not only murdered but also tortured, mutilated and raped (and all those other verbs we use to frighten each other with). The Iraq war isn't a war such as Vietnam where America went into a nation without being able to improve the situation, in Iraq the citizens had no place to go but up. However what the future will bring is anyone's guess. Sorry Samantha, but Ned is right here. You can't call a voter turnout of over 60% a 'farcical event' when that exceeds the typical turnout for US elections. In spite of 44 people being killed in violence (including a child suffering from Downs syndrome used as a suicide bomber), the Iraqi elections were an unqualified success, as international observers have all said. Turnout in the shiite and kurdish areas was over 70% according to reports, so it appears the only people who were discouraged from voting by the Sunni terrorists were the Sunni citizens of Iraq. Holy backfires, batman. The mayor of Bagdad has stated that they are going to erect a statue of Bush in the city center as a 'hero of freedom'. Hope his pose isn't the same as Saddams (assuming they use the same pedestal). What successful iraqi elections do is expose the lie of the anti-Americanistas here and elsewhere who claim all sorts of ulterior motives. It will discredit the socialist/internationalist forces here in the US and give further impetus to various "US out of the UN/UN out of the US" campaigns around the US. Now Annan's son has copped to all the charges of corruption on the oil for food scandal. The UN and the european anti-americanistas are going down in flames. Marc Rich, the Clinton pardon recipient, is being implicated as a major player in this criminal enterprise. No surprise there. Word is coming down that the Clintons themselves may be involved. Shall we call this the "Blackwater" scandal? The only farcical events are now any time the UN purports to represent world opinion. --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > I don't see the logic. How can any outcome of that farcical event > say anything relevant about how fascist the US is or is not? Even the > most miraculous outcome would not change the nature of our > government. > > -s > > On Jan 27, 2005, at 6:33 PM, Ned Late wrote: > > > Let's give the coming Iraq election-- and those Iraqi > > elections coming afterwards-- a chance, before we call > > the current administration fascist. If Iraq eventually > > succeeds in transforming into a democracy then the > > Bush administration wins and will not be remembered as > > fascist. > > The victors write the history books. If the Axis had > > won WWII we'd be eating sushi & rice and reading in > > German how Hitler vanquished Communism 60 years ago. > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. > > http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term' -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 31 20:42:10 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:42:10 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41FE9822.1040507@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >Sorry Samantha, but Ned is right here. You can't call a voter turnout >of over 60% a 'farcical event' when that exceeds the typical turnout >for US elections. In spite of 44 people being killed in violence >(including a child suffering from Downs syndrome used as a suicide >bomber), the Iraqi elections were an unqualified success, as >international observers have all said. Turnout in the shiite and >kurdish areas was over 70% according to reports, so it appears the only >people who were discouraged from voting by the Sunni terrorists were >the Sunni citizens of Iraq. Holy backfires, batman. The mayor of Bagdad >has stated that they are going to erect a statue of Bush in the city >center as a 'hero of freedom'. Hope his pose isn't the same as Saddams >(assuming they use the same pedestal). > > > The 'problem' is not the Kurds, and not the Shiites (yet). The Shiites have voted to control Iraq, the Kurds have voted for independence and the Sunnis are polishing their guns. The war will go on. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.2 - Release Date: 28/01/2005 From es at popido.com Mon Jan 31 20:50:48 2005 From: es at popido.com (Erik Starck) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:50:48 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <31d7f2e1d87458ca3880550f93476ff6@mac.com> <20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050131214632.07402760@mail.popido.com> At 20:13 2005-01-31 Mike Lorrey wrote: >The only farcical events are now any time the UN purports to represent >world opinion. But hey, at least the genocide in Sudan is not _really_ a genocide according to the UN: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6890261/ Fine, then they can continue not doing anything since it is not a real genocide anyway. Or maybe it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is. Erik From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Jan 31 21:40:03 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:40:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Call for contributions: "Intro to H+" book In-Reply-To: <98f268ee818ae9c9da21345030f0fced@mac.com> References: <20050128154716.37845.qmail@web30006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200501282129.56192.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <41FAE8AA.4080102@sasktel.net> <200501290308.39886.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> <98f268ee818ae9c9da21345030f0fced@mac.com> Message-ID: Greg Bear's _Eon_ touched on this in spots - characters w/o noses, and some radicals that were more fish-like or a pattern of random convenience. To build on the notion of "squishy sentimentalism" - which I like, and find as a great reference - it is obvious I think that some things will remain well outside our understanding until we do change form. The limit to our current space suit isn't just biological, but may be logical as well. ]3 On Jan 30, 2005, at 5:15 AM, Samantha Atkins wrote: > Why would i want a human body or something that remotely resembles one > if I am truly posthuman and thus most of my needs and interests are no > longer best served by such a form? I would only don such a grossly > limited form on a whim or due to some temporary need. Our squishy > sentimentalism toward our current form is symptomatic of much that > makes it unlikely that more than a handful of originally human > sentients will ever become truly posthuman. > > -s > > On Jan 28, 2005, at 9:08 PM, Diego Caleiro wrote: > >> >> In a posthuman world, would we really need clothes? >> >> suppose that we keep antropomorphic, in this case, the religious >> beleifs of >> sin will have died out, and nobody would need to use clothes for this >> reason... the cold weather would affect us much less, since we >> could have >> heat controls in our body, no need for clothing. >> >> If we do not choose to be antropomorphic, as most people here say we >> won't, >> then we woul be able to change our shape faster then the fashion >> could create >> clothes for us.... >> >> Diego (Log At) >> >> >> >> Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 23:36, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. >> escreveu: >>> Given human past tendancies to exterminate those who have some >>> difference in outward appearance it would be best if a poshuman >>> would be >>> like a camelion.... keep a relatively human appearance while in the >>> company of the old-style humans and transhumans in public and adopt >>> a >>> more unique appearance in private. >>> >>> Alternatively generate a hologram to customize outward appearances >>> to >>> the percieved comfort level of the observer. Essentially clothes >>> could >>> be replaced by a hologram to mask more functional body function and >>> body maintence suits. >>> >>> Diego Caleiro wrote: >>>> That depends on what do you mean by posthumanism, if you were >>>> talking >>>> about what most people would choose to look like, in, say 500 >>>> years, then >>>> probably yes, there would be a difference between the human body >>>> and the >>>> post human. >>>> >>>> But the definition of posthuman is simply a matter of enhanced >>>> human, and >>>> it is possible to enhance yourself keeping your external >>>> appearence. As >>>> most tranhumanist would agree, each person should have his right to >>>> not >>>> change his appearence, if so he wishes. >>>> >>>> Diego (Log At) >>>> >>>> Em Sexta 28 Janeiro 2005 13:47, Ned Late escreveu: >>>>> However transhumanism is the precursor to posthumanism, and >>>>> wouldn't >>>>> posthumanism be a rejection of the human body as we know it? >>>>> >>>>>> Hara Ra wrote: >>>>>> But some of us like our bodies, and see transhumanism as an >>>>>> extension of >>>>>> humanity, not a rejection of the body..... >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------- >>>>> Do you Yahoo!? >>>>> Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> extropy-chat mailing list >>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat >> _______________________________________________ >> extropy-chat mailing list >> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From bret at bonfireproductions.com Mon Jan 31 21:49:20 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:49:20 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Soyuz Hubble Repair Mission In-Reply-To: <00e601c506db$1af51140$f8893cd1@pavilion> References: <00cc01c50344$1a3a1240$3b893cd1@pavilion><56B5068C-6FCB-11D9-918A-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com><01c401c503f0$9eb4a380$5b893cd1@pavilion> <00e601c506db$1af51140$f8893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2005, at 9:50 AM, Dan wrote: > On Saturday, January 29, 2005 9:26 AM Bret Kulakovich > bret at bonfireproductions.com wrote: >>>> I don't mind the expense - we have a pile of >>>> instruments already built that would have been >>>> installed by now, that are just sitting Earthside. >>> >>> That's typical of many space enthusiasts: no >>> concern with costs. I think such an attitude >>> partly causes so little to get done. >> >> Aha! - but if this was a typical space enthusiast >> without concern for cost, I would rebuttle with >> the expense of various other programs that >> cost far more e.g. war, social security, etc. =) > > Specious argument. Just because waste exists elsewhere does not > justify > waste here. You're using an argument similar to, "Because my neighbors > beat their kids, I should be able to beat mine." Agreed - and spoken with tongue-in-cheek at best. >> I did not say I was not concerned - but that I >> didn't mind. Because the hardware upgrades >> that the taxpayers have already paid for are >> sitting around on the ground being expensive. >> It's not like we can take a Hubble component >> down to Chile and use it in the new telescopes >> there instead. > > While it's true that it's unlikely a Hubble component is going to be > used for a telescope in Chile, this does not mean that it has no other > use -- for instance, it could be sold to SpaceDev to make a private > space telescope -- or that more money should be used on it. You're > using the Vietnam argument here -- i.e., we've already wasted resources > R on project P, so wasting more than R on P is justified. Actually, > sometimes it's better to fold than to keep putting money into the pot. > Also, being one of said taxpayers, I'd rather not have any more money > taken from me -- even if you want yours taken from you.:) Although I also agree with your sentiment here, I offer the following: The plan was expensive when it was originally "the plan" - just in adjusted 2001 +/- dollars. The people who desire the Hubble to remain functioning (at least those science minded rather than constituent minded) seem to be betting on the "bird-in-hand" mentality. Rather than expenditure on Hubble, would you be interested in an equal amount spent instead the next generation space telescope? A ground-based behemoth array? None of the above? Have a great week, ]3 > > Cheers! > > Dan > See "Tackling Tebye Again!" at: > http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/Tebye2.html > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 22:29:53 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:29:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <41FE9822.1040507@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050131222953.93456.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > The 'problem' is not the Kurds, and not the Shiites (yet). > The Shiites have voted to control Iraq, the Kurds have voted for > independence and the Sunnis are polishing their guns. > The war will go on. Not for long. Sunnis make up 20% of the country. They are asking for an ethnic cleansing if they think they can regain control by arms. Iran has shipped in too much weaponry for the shiites, and there is no longer any C3I like what Saddam had. They best they can hope for is to show up at city hall with hat in hand thankful that their own people got elected to represent their districts in parliament. Also, only 23% of the population want an islamic government, according to a survey of 2,000 iraqis three weeks ago. Most want secularism. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Mon Jan 31 22:29:49 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 23:29:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] 'History' and the fulcrum of 1945 Message-ID: <20050131222015.M15555@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Dear Hubert, Yes, of course your recollections are compressed and viewed decades later, but they are authentic, first hand experiences which are extremely valuable for gaining a broader picture. After thinking more, and seeing what you wrote in your last message, I would say that what you say fits very well with Eksteins from your boyhood time. Ekstein is addressing a time a little bit earlier. >What you say about Modris Eksteins seems to give a broader and >more realistic picture. But it certainly depends on the date >these interviews were made. In the 1960s people were too busy >earning enough money for a volkswagen and making holidays in i>taly to get bothered with any collective guilt question, while >from the mid 80s on, you could get better answers though many of >the active perpetrators were already dead by that time. If I look at the dates in his footnotes, the direct quotes from particular Germans are at about 1945. He probably has formed conclusions from a variety of sources, including personal knowledge, however. The following is a bit long, but these typed-in pages from Eksteins' book I think are very interesting and useful for you and I and others, and I want to you to see this. I think it is one of the most eye-opening parts of the book. Tanti saluti da Roma! Amara _Walking Since Daybreak_ by Modris Eksteins, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1999, pg. 214-216. Economic recovery and the emergence of political stability in postwar Europe would erode the concept of Stunde Null as a time beyond convention, beyond understanding, indeed beyond the realm of history and enlightenment. Intellectual bridges would be built over the chasm and connections reestablished. But despite the bridges, the chasm remains. "Even if surrounded with explanations," Guenter Grass has written, Auschwitz can never be grasped."(95) The same is true of the murderous military strategies of the two world wars, Stalin's homicidal policies and of the firebombing of civilians in undefended cities. Nineteen forty-five marked the nadir of Western civilization. The Allies tried to make the atrocities against the Jews known to Germans. They forced locals to visit the death camps; they distributed the documentary film Die Todesmuelen widely. But even then, proportionately few Germans were faced to confront, through personal experience or Allied reeducation efforts, the reality of the Third Reich's vicious onslaught on civilization. The extermination camps had been located for the most part outside Germany; the horrors of the Einsatgruppen took place behind Germany's borders; of the Jews murdered by the Nazis only a small percentage were German, the vast majority Polish and Russian. Jews had never constituted more than 1 percent of Germany's population; they were concentrated in the big cities, Berlin, Frankfurt, and Hamburg. To most Germans, the Jew was a myth, not a reality. By contrast, most Germans did encounter Allied atrocity, in the form of impersonal bombs raining down from the sky. German cities were flattened. Millions of Germans encountered Soviet brutality during the advance of the Red Army. Some twelve to fifteen million Germans were expelled from Central and Easter Europe; perhaps two million of them did not survive (96). This for Germans was tangible, palpable horror. When the war was over, the mood in Germany was an indefinable mixture of confusion, fear, and anger, but not guilt, certainly not collective guilt. The attempt by the Western Allies to force repentance on the Germans evoked much cynicism and mockery. The Allies had no moral authority to "reeducate" others. Luebeck's most famous son, Thomas Mann, who had gone into exile in 1933, said that the Germans even felt a kind of pride that the greatest tragedy in world history was their tragedy (97). A British intelligence report remarked that the Germans "tend to glory in the distinction of being misunderstood, and maintain that it is not the Germans who are to blame but the rest of the world for driving Germany towards nationalist feelings." (98) Of her husband, Emil Wolff, a professor of English and now the newly elected pro-rector of the University of Hamburg, Mathilde Wolff-Moenckeberg wrote in mid-May 1945: "W. is deeply depressed... He was so passionately devoted to Great Britain and all it stood for. Now he is disillusioned by the limitless arrogance and the dishonesty with which they treat us, proclaiming to the whole world that only Germany could have sunk so low in such abysmal cruelty and bestiality, that they themselves are pure and beyond reproach." She share his anger. "And _who_ destroyed our beautiful cities, regardless of human life, of women, children, and old people?" she asked in rhetorical rage. "_Who_ poured down poisonous phosphorus during the terror raids on unfortunate fugitives, driving them like living torches into the rivers? _Who_ dive bombed harmless peasants, women and children, in low-level attacks, and machine-gunned the defenceless population? _Who_ was it, I ask you? We are all the same, all equally guilty." (99) The very house in Potsdam, at Kaiserstrasse 2, in which Truman and Churchill made the decision, in July 24, to drop an atomic bomb on Japan had witnessed only weeks earlier the gang rape by Soviet soldiers of the daughters of the German publisher Gustav Mueller-Grote (100). Moreover, as awful as the war had been, it could have been worse. The weapons of war in Europe had been gruesome, especially the impersonal bombs and rockets from the air. Those weapons could, however, have been even more deadly. During the summer of 1944, when it seemed for a time that the Normandy invasion had stalled, and when London was being subjected to a steady dose of V-1 rocket attacks, Churchill and his advisers did give thought to gas and bacteriological warfare. They backed off for the moment (101). A year later, after the fighting had stopped in Europe, the Americans, who in relative terms had a light war, did not twitch as they dropped their new atomic bombs on Japan. Had these been available earlier, would they not have been used on Germany? Many Germans were convinced they would have. Guild? Morality? IN a Central and Eastern European context these were far more complex issues than the victorious Anglo-American seemed able in the spring of 1945 to imagine. Footnotes (95) Guenter Grass, _Two States - One Nation?_ trans. K. Winston and A.S. Wensiger (San Diego: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1990), 96. (96) The figure normally given is twelve million. Alfred M. de Zayas, however, puts it at fifteen in _Nemesis at Potsdam: The Expulsion of the Germans from the East, 3rd ed. (Lincon: University of Nebraska Press, 1989), xix. (97) As reported in Luebecker Nachrichten, May 21, 1947. (98) "Weekly Intelligence Sitrep," Hamburg Intelligence Office, January 20, 1949, FO 1014/276, Public Round Office, London. (99) Diary letter, May 17, 1945, Wolff-Moenckeberg, _On the Other Side, 123. (100) David G. McCullough, Truman (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1992), 407-8. (101) The bacteriological agent considered was code-named "N" and was probably anthrax. Anthony Cave Brown, _Bodyguard of Lies, 2 vols. (New York: Harper and Rox, 1975), II, 813-14. www.amara.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 22:33:05 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:33:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: is america fascist yet? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050131214632.07402760@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <20050131223305.94708.qmail@web30703.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Erik Starck wrote: > At 20:13 2005-01-31 Mike Lorrey wrote: > >The only farcical events are now any time the UN purports to > represent > >world opinion. > > But hey, at least the genocide in Sudan is not _really_ a genocide > according to the UN: > http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6890261/ > Fine, then they can continue not doing anything since it is not a > real genocide anyway. Rwanda wasn't officially a genocide until after they killed everybody. The point of the UN isn't supposed to be to document after the fact, it is to prevent this shit from happening in the first place. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nanogirl at halcyon.com Mon Jan 31 22:49:02 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 14:49:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Jim Update #5 References: <31d7f2e1d87458ca3880550f93476ff6@mac.com><20050131191323.15154.qmail@web30708.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050131214632.07402760@mail.popido.com> Message-ID: <015001c507e7$155f63e0$1db71218@Nano> Dear friends, since Jim and I are now very busy with his new schedule and will not always be able to keep up with emails, I have created a blog where I will post what is going on in our lives and update Jim's treatment progress. Now, anyone can go to this one url and read about what is happening and even comment about the post, if you like. The previous posts will be automatically archived, so if you missed something you can look it up. The url is: http://ginamiller.blogspot.com/ .This will be the last email update now that we will be using this new forum. Thank you all for your love and support. Warmest regards, Gina` Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org 3d/Animation: http://www.nanogirl.com/museumfuture/index.htm Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Jan 31 23:36:41 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:36:41 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] More CRS products Message-ID: <41FEC109.9D18E987@mindspring.com> MORE CRS PRODUCTS For no good reason, most reports of the Congressional Research Service (CRS) are still not made directly available to the public. New or newly updated CRS reports obtained by Secrecy News include: "Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004: 'Lone Wolf' Amendment to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act," December 29, 2004: http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS22011.pdf "Border and Transportation Security: Overview of Congressional Issues," December 17, 2004: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/RL32705.pdf "Intelligence Community Reorganization: Potential Effects on DOD Intelligence Agencies," updated December 21, 2004: http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RL32515.pdf "The National Intelligence Director and Intelligence Analysis," updated December 3, 2004: http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/RS21948.pdf "Terrorism and National Security: Issues and Trends," updated December 21, 2004: http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/IB10119.pdf -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Mon Jan 31 23:59:27 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 16:59:27 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] USS HOPPER is named for Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper Message-ID: <41FEC65F.5CC08AFE@mindspring.com> USS HOPPER is named for Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper, whose pioneering spirit in the field of computer technology led the Navy into the age of computers. During her career, she was know as the "Grand Lady of Software," "Amazing Grace" and "Grandma Cobol" after co-inventing COBOL (common business-oriented language). COBOL made it possible for computers to respond to words instead of just numbers, thus enabling computers to "talk to each other." Rear Adm. Hopper retired from the Naval Reserve in January 1967, but was recalled to active duty in August 1967 by President Lyndon B. Johnson because of her much-needed expertise in applied computer science. Rear Adm. Hopper retired a second time in August 1986. She passed away on Jan. 1, 1992. This is the first time since World War II, and only the second time in Naval history, that a warship has been named for a woman from the Navy?s own ranks. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.]