From nanogirl at halcyon.com Sat Jan 1 00:27:55 2005 From: nanogirl at halcyon.com (Gina Miller) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 16:27:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Nanogirl News~ Message-ID: <008001c4ef98$c33a1e90$1db71218@Nano> The Nanogirl News December 31, 2004 Nanotubes form along atomic steps. The Weizmann Institute of Science today announced that a research group headed by Dr. Ernesto Joselevich has developed a new approach to create patterns of carbon nanotubes by formation along atomic steps on sapphire surfaces. Carbon nanotubes are excellent candidates for the production of nanoelectronic circuits, but their assembly into ordered arrays remains a major obstacle toward this application. (Eurekalert 12/21/04) http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/wi-nfa122104.php Robert A.Freitas Jr. has his lecture in which he spoke at the Foresight conference available online. In his lecture material you can read about and view images on his new and first of it's kind proposal, for building DMS tooltips using current technology, as disclosed in his Feb. 2004 provisional patent application. Stay tuned for more available material. http://www.molecularassembler.com/Papers/PathDiamMolMfg.htm Red blood cells are go! Physicists in India have shown that red blood cells can transfer the angular momentum in a circularly polarized laser beam into rotational motion. The "motor" developed by Deepak Mathur and colleagues at the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research (TIFR) in Mumbai could find use in a variety of applications, including biosensors and cellular micromachines (J A Dharmadhikari et al. 2004 Appl. Phys. Lett. 85 6048). (Physicsweb 12/14/04) http://physicsweb.org/articles/news/8/12/8/1 UCSB Scientists Build Nanoscale 'Jigsaw' Puzzles Made of RNA. Scientists at the University of California, Santa Barbara, working at the leading edge of bionanotechnology, are using assembly and folding principles of natural RNA, or ribonucleic acid, to build beautiful and potentially useful artificial structures at the nano-scale. Possible applications include the development of nanocircuits, medical implants, and improved medical testing. This research, published in the December 17 issue of the journal Science, is led by Luc Jaeger, assistant professor in the Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry at UCSB and a member of UCSB's Biomolecular Science and Engineering Program, and by Arkadiusz Chworos, a post-doctoral fellow studying in Jaeger's lab. (UCSB 12/17/04) http://www.ia.ucsb.edu/pa/display.aspx?pkey=1225 Nanotechnology sensors could be a $17 billion market. In a new report, NanoMarkets LC predicts that the nanotechnology sensor market will generate global revenues of $2.8 billion in 2008 and by 2012 will reach $17.2 billion. The industry analyst focused on nanoelectronics sensors that are used to reduce size and cost to provide a high level of integration including platforms consisting of carbon nanotubes, nanowires, molectronics, spintronics and so called plastic electronics. Another area of attention in the report is directed to conventional sensors using nanomaterials and sensing material. (EETimes 12/08/04) http://www.eetimes.com/at/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=55300380 'Fountain pen' etches with molecular ink. Scientists in the Netherlands have used a micromachined "fountain pen" to write and etch sub-micron patterns on a surface with molecular "ink". The new device developed by Miko Elwenspoek and colleagues at the University of Twente is based on an atomic force microscope (S Deladi et al. 2004 Appl. Phys. Lett. 85 5361). (nanotechweb 12/13/04) http://nanotechweb.org/articles/news/3/12/9/1 Artificial cells take shape. Bacterium-sized 'protein factories' are a step along the road to synthetic life. Primitive cells similar to bacteria have been created by US researchers. These synthetic cells are not truly alive, because they cannot replicate or evolve. But they can churn out proteins for days, and could be useful for drug production, as well as advancing the quest to build artificial life from scratch. (nature.com 12/6/04) http://www.nature.com/news/2004/041206/full/041206-2.html In some of the first work documenting the uptake of carbon nanotubes by living cells, a team of chemists and life scientists from Rice University, the University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston and the Texas Heart Institute have selectively detected low concentrations of nanotubes in laboratory cell cultures. The research appears in the Dec. 8 issue of the Journal of the American Chemical Society. It suggests that the white blood cells, which were incubated in dilute solutions of nanotubes, treated the nanotubes as they would other extracellular particles - actively ingesting them and sealing them off inside chambers known as phagosomes. (Bio 12/9/04) http://www.bio.com/newsfeatures/newsfeatures_research.jhtml?cid=6500163 Tiny Crystals In Large Quantities Method produces monodisperse nanocrystals on multigram scale. Uniform-sized nanocrystals can be prepared in large batches through a new preparation method developed by researchers in South Korea. The technique may hasten development of future nanotechnology applications by providing a low-cost route to commercial quantities of uniform nanocrystals. Researchers working in nanometer-scale science have demonstrated a variety of devices that exploit unique optical, electronic, and other size-dependent properties of nanocrystals. (C&E 12/6/04) http://pubs.acs.org/cen/news/8249/8249notw4.html Team Engineers Cell-deforming Technique To Help Understand Malaria. Subra Suresh has spent the last two decades studying the mechanical properties of engineered materials from the atomic to the structural scale. So, until recently, the head of MIT's Department of Materials Science and Engineering never thought he'd be a player in the hunt for cures to malaria and pancreatic cancer. (Sciencedaily 12/30/04) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/12/041219212955.htm (Interview) Rebuilding Things "Atom by Atom". Nanoscience expert Chad Mirkin discusses the promise of supersmall materials, what breakthroughs are likely, and what's just hype. Chad Mirkin is a world leader in a field with potential that's near limitless: Nanotechnology. Governments, venture funds, and angel investors are pouring billions of dollars into the area, hoping that the ability to manipulate materials at the atomic level will produce revolutionary medicines, metals, and fuels. Mirkin is director of Northwestern University's Institute for Nanotechnology, one of the field's research hot spots. He says while certain aspects of nano, such as a proliferation of nanosize robots, are overhyped, other breakthroughs are already happening. He recently talked from his Evanston (Ill.) office with BusinessWeek Senior Writer Stephen Baker. Edited excerpts from their conversation follow:...(Businessweek 12/29/04) http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/dec2004/nf20041228_7625_db083.htm Winning an Uphill Battle. It sounds as unlikely as toothpaste flowing back into the tube: A simple hole in a cell membrane can cause glycerol to flow "uphill," out of the cell, when the higher concentration outside would ordinarily make it flow the other way. Known as a channel protein, the molecular hatch acts like a ratchet to squeeze one glycerol molecule after another in the direction opposite the concentration gradient, researchers calculate in the 3 December PRL. Cells may use this effect to avoid overdosing on glycerol. (Physicsweb 12/3/04) http://focus.aps.org/story/v14/st23 Suit that never gets dirty. Scientists have won a ?1million grant to help develop clothes that never need cleaning. It will aid research into nano-technology, looking at the properties of fabrics down to atomic particles. And it could make the plot of the 1951 Ealing comedy The Man In The White Suit a reality. In the film, scientist Sidney Stratton, played by Alec Guinness, invents a fabric that never gets dirty or wears out. Experiments The real experiments will be carried out by chemical giant Unilever. (Dailyrecord 12/31/04) http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15026874&method=full&siteid=89488&headline=suit-that-never-gets-dirty-name_page.html Molecular motor goes both ways. University of Edinburgh researchers have constructed a molecular motor that can spin in either direction, much like the biological molecular motors involved in many of life's processes. The motor consists of a pair of interlocking rings; the smaller ring travels clockwise or counterclockwise around the larger ring depending on the order in which several chemical reactions are carried out on the molecule. (TRN 12/29/04) http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2004/122904/Molecular_motor_goes_both_ways_Brief_122904.html Simmons remakes bed with nano-enhanced fabric. In June, Nano-Tex Chief Executive Donn Tice said his firm would pursue new markets like home furnishings. He recently made good on the promise with the unveiling of Simmons Bedding Co.'s new HealthSmart bed. The bed, which features a zip-off mattress top, is intended to appeal to consumers who want a cleaner mattress. The mattress top is made of two layers of fabric. On top are DuPont Coolmax fibers designed to wick away sweat and moisture. Under that is a semi-impervious layer of Nano-Tex-enhanced fabric that traps fluids and particles so they can be washed out. The mattress frame has a terry cloth top treated with Teflon for an extra layer of protection. (SmallTimes 12/22/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=8489 Smart Dust Advances in Russia. Smart Dust is going to be something really special. But not just yet. Like a toddler learning to walk by "furniture cruising," staggering wobbly from stationary object to object, Smart Dust is looking for its sea legs. The birth of Smart Dust potential was based on RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) and the journey toward full-on Distributed-Sensing Smart Dust-which is the goal for final evolution of this technology--will be a long and arduous one. (GatewaytoRussia 12/16/04) http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_260273.php (Audio) Do Nanotech Products Live Up to the Hype? Nanotechnology is the science of designing materials, atom by atom. It promises revolutionary applications for everything from the military to sports. NPR's David Kestenbaum investigates whether nanotech products already on the market are all they're cracked up to be. (NPR 12/31/04) http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4252587 Tight Twist Toughens Nano Fiber. Researchers from the University of Texas at Dallas and the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) in Australia have strengthened carbon nanotube yarn by introducing a tight twist as the nanotubes are spun. The method taps the secret of spinning discovered in the Late Stone Age: a tight twist produces a tough fiber. (Always On 12/14/04) http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=7486_0_6_0_C European researchers build prototype DNA 'velcro'. A team of German scientists has succeeded in creating what they call DNA 'velcro' to bind and then separate nanoparticles. Nanoscientists are already busily constructing novel materials. This experiment could lead, one day, to 'self-constructing' materials. Based at the University of Dortmund, Christof Niemeyer and his team used strands of artificial DNA - the so-called 'king of molecules' - to attach gold nanoparticles together before separating them again. Each gold particle, measuring just 15 nanometres across, was attached using sulphur to the centre of a DNA strand. (Europa 12/14/04) http://europa.eu.int/comm/research/headlines/news/article_04_12_14_en.html Encapsulated Carbon Nanotubes for Implantable Biological Sensors to Monitor Blood Glucose Levels. Protein-encapsulated single-walled carbon nanotubes that alter their fluorescence in the presence of specific biomolecules could generate many new types of implantable biological sensors, say researchers from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign who developed the encapsulation technique. (A2ZNano 12/13/04) http://www.azonano.com/news.asp?newsID=439 Coated nanotubes make biosensors. good sensor should be able to sense extremely small changes and should be able to transmit this information about its environment consistently. Researchers working to make sensors that indicate a given chemical or biological agent after sensing only a few or even a single molecule of that substance are turning to the minuscule tools of nanotechnology. Researchers from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign are using carbon nanotubes to sense single molecules, and are tapping the way carbon nanotubes give off near-infrared light in order to read what the sensors have detected. (TRN Dec/Jan 04) http://www.trnmag.com/Stories/2004/122904/Coated_nanotubes_make_biosensors_Brief_122904.html Nanotechnology comes to golf balls. Sometime in 2005, start-up company NanoDynamics plans to sell a nanotech golf ball that promises to dramatically reduce hooks and slices for even the most frustrated of weekend golfers. That will be a hint of the future of sports. NanoDynamics says it's figured out how to alter the materials in a golf ball at the molecular level so the weight inside shifts less as the ball spins. The less it shifts, the straighter even a badly hit ball will go. (iseekgolf.com 12/24/04) http://www.iseekgolf.com/view_articles.php/0/26/6192/4/52/0/1/ NanoSus working on nanofur. If humans ever gain the ability to crawl up walls like geckos, you can bet that it might have something to do with nanotechnology research. Creating an artificial version of the tiny fibers on geckos' toes is just one research project among many at Nanosys in Palo Alto. Even if the product, dubbed "nano fur," doesn't pan out in consumer products such as sneakers for walking up walls, Nanosys believes the technology will be an important tool for molecular researchers. (SmallTimes 12/28/04) http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?section_id=45&document_id=8539 Just How Old Can He Go? Ray Kurzweil began his dinner with a pill. "A starch blocker," he explained, "one of my 250 supplements a day." The risk of encountering starchy food seemed slight indeed at the vegetarian restaurant in Manhattan he had selected, where the fare was heavy with kale, seaweed, tofu, steamed broccoli and bean sprouts. But Mr. Kurzweil, a renowned inventor and computer scientist, has strong views on dietary matters. His regimen for longevity is not everyone's cup of tea (preferably green tea, Mr. Kurzweil advises, which contains extra antioxidants to reduce the risk of heart disease and cancer). And most people would scoff at his notion that emerging trends in medicine, biotechnology and nanotechnology open a realistic path to immortality - the central claim of a new book by Mr. Kurzweil and Dr. Terry Grossman, a physician and founder of a longevity clinic in Denver. (GoUpstate 12/27/04) http://www.goupstate.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041227/ZNYT05/412270340/1027/OPINION -Or here at CNet: http://news.com.com/Just+how+old+can+he+go/2100-7337_3-5504202.html Happy New Year! Gina "Nanogirl" Miller Nanotechnology Industries http://www.nanoindustries.com Personal: http://www.nanogirl.com/index2.html Foresight Senior Associate member http://www.foresight.org Nanotechnology Advisor Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org My New Project: Microscope Jewelry http://www.nanogirl.com/crafts/microjewelry.htm Email: nanogirl at halcyon.com "Nanotechnology: Solutions for the future." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Sat Jan 1 01:45:34 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 20:45:34 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] TransAct: A new Transhumanist activism email list Message-ID: <41D600BE.4040309@humanenhancement.com> I am pleased to announce the formation of an email list dedicated to dissemination of information regarding political causes, pending legistlation, calls to action, etc. relating to Transhumanism and Transhumanist-related issues. The list may be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TransAct/ The list will not be maintained under the auspices of any particular organization, and will thus be able to deal with specific legislation, political candidates, etc. without threatening any organization's 501(c)3 non-profit status in the United States. It is my sincere hope that this list will help jumpstart Transhumanism's influence on mainstream politics and society, by inspiring true grassroots organizing on practical issues of legislation and social action. Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 1 03:23:25 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 19:23:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050101032325.86220.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Oh man, carnivorous robots. What a concept. Now > our "mind children" > can potentially compete for food, eh? At least > that is how the > paranoid may see it. > > Wouldn't a nice little fleck of some radioactive > isotope be maybe a > touch more preferable than instilling hunting > patterns (presumably) and > the ability to digest biological creatures? As has been pointed out, these robots don't hunt - and besides, their food sources aren't quite the same as ours. But putting those aside for the moment...if they did evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most likely what would happen is the same thing that's happened as more and more humans have "competed" for food over time: new sources of food and new technology drive supply up to meet the demand, resulting in lower costs for any given person to acquire the food they need, and better quality food. Some of the effort to establish that will likely be supplied by the new "competitors", whose primary motivation - being fed - doesn't actually demand that all competitors suffer. (In fact, the smarter ones will likely realize that having many many food sources out there means that much more of a chance that its own ration of food will be available to it - even if it also means that everyone else can also eat.) From sentience at pobox.com Sat Jan 1 05:03:59 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 00:03:59 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians Message-ID: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> Happy New Year! Here's a little something to start off the year. It's a holiday so you've got plenty of time to read, right? http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/technical.html "A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation" TechExp is a sequel to the _Intuitive Explanation of Bayesian Reasoning_. In the beginning of TechExp there's some new math that wasn't in the _Intuitive Explanation_, but after that TechExp dives straight into human rationality and philosophy of science. I'm glad I can finally publish this. There have been many times in recent online conversations when I wished I could refer to it. PS: The Singularity Institute made the 33.3% public support threshold. Forward the Singularity! -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 1 06:04:46 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:04:46 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Sure, dream on..... ever heard of hackers? computer viruses? sociopaths? >Samantha Atkins >Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton > >Oh man, carnivorous robots. > >Oh no, very much on the contrary. A machine that powers itself by >devouring bio-creatures >is a verrrry desireable breakthru, ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 06:23:14 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 01:23:14 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> Yes, down with the obviously non-desirable self-powering robots! I hear those nasty hackers, computer viruses, and sociopaths can manipulate PCs to evil ends, as well. And don't forget sociopaths running us down in automobiles, or rigging internal combustion engines to explode in public areas, and making use of that bullshit "lever" invention to hurl rocks at us, and use that nasty setback "fire" to burn us. Good call, Hara! On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 22:04:46 -0800, Hara Ra wrote: > Sure, dream on..... > > ever heard of hackers? > computer viruses? > sociopaths? > > > Samantha Atkins > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton > > Oh man, carnivorous robots. > > Oh no, very much on the contrary. A machine that powers itself by > devouring bio-creatures > is a verrrry desireable breakthru, > > ================================== > > = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = > = harara at sbcglobal.net = > = Alcor North Cryomanagement = > = Alcor Advisor to Board = > = 831 429 8637 = > ================================== > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 1 07:44:21 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2004 23:44:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> No question that a self-powering machine would be nice. But this isn't quite that any more than humans are fully "self-powering". It needs an external source of "nutrition" to convert to power. If it isn't too much trouble to self-contain a very long-lasting energy source then why not avoid all that messy biological digestion and dependence on biological food supply? I imagine we would like to use such small robots in environments having no guarantee of an adequate supply of flies or whatever. As far as having robots eat various undesirable things I think we are more adept at adapting existing biological creatures, from microbes on up, to such purposes for many applications. So far, where they exist, the biological solutions are often cheaper. -s spike wrote: > Samantha Atkins > *Subject:* Re: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton > > > > Oh man, carnivorous robots. What a concept. Now our "mind children" > can potentially compete for food, eh? At least that is how the > paranoid may see it. > > Wouldn't a nice little fleck of some radioactive isotope be maybe a > touch more preferable than instilling hunting patterns (presumably) > and the ability to digest biological creatures? > > - s > > > > Oh no, very much on the contrary. A machine that powers itself by > devouring bio-creatures > > is a verrrry desireable breakthru, for presumably they can be designed > to devour *very specific > > kinds* of biota, such as flies, mosquitoes, gnats, ants, roaches, > aphids, locusts and so on, > > all manner of pests we would much rather have devoured than not. Our > mind children would > > not compete against us for food, but rather devour our competitors for > food, as well as those > > beasts which spread disease or annoy us. We might even be able to use > their carbon waste > > products for some useful purpose (altho it is not immediately clear to > me the value of > > robot shit.) > > > > If we can get this to work, it would perhaps be a step along the path > to a more important > > development: an herbivorous pest-devouring automaton, which would > power itself by > > munching weeds in our yards, gardens and farms. If we could get them > to differentiate > > Kentucky bluegrass from all other plants, for instance, imagine the > fortunes that could be > > made. If it could differentiate corn from shell weed, wheat from > tares, oh my, the commercial > > value is difficult to estimate. > > > > spike > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > From pgptag at runbox.com Sat Jan 1 11:31:36 2005 From: pgptag at runbox.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 12:31:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: A New Year's gift for Bayesians Message-ID: This looks great Eliezer, thanks. It is a real new year gift as for a few days we will all have more time for reading interesting things (alas, does not last). Happy new year to you. Giulio --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.820 / Virus Database: 558 - Release Date: 20/12/2004 From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 12:51:40 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:51:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101032325.86220.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <20050101032325.86220.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050101125140.GW9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Dec 31, 2004 at 07:23:25PM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > As has been pointed out, these robots don't hunt - What, they can't hunt? A remote exploit there, a code patch here, here ya go. That's just what we need, agribots2predator worms. > and besides, their food sources aren't quite the same > as ours. Oh yeah, that makes me feel completely safe already. > But putting those aside for the moment...if they did > evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most likely How about you being their food? > what would happen is the same thing that's happened as > more and more humans have "competed" for food over But robots are not animals. > time: new sources of food and new technology drive > supply up to meet the demand, resulting in lower costs > for any given person to acquire the food they need, > and better quality food. Some of the effort to > establish that will likely be supplied by the new > "competitors", whose primary motivation - being fed - > doesn't actually demand that all competitors suffer. > (In fact, the smarter ones will likely realize that > having many many food sources out there means that > much more of a chance that its own ration of food will > be available to it - even if it also means that > everyone else can also eat.) And, verily, the lion laith down with the lamb. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 1 12:54:07 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:54:07 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Graphing Calculator Story Message-ID: <20050101124408.M37264@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Happy New Year's, Extropes! One week ago, I was collecting seaweed from the icy Baltic shores on the outskirts of Tallinn for a marine scientist friend to test one of his ideas. Two days ago I was walking in the birthplace of my father: Riga ("Paris of the North") while big white fluffy snowflakes converted a magical place into a white winter wonderland. Today I am watching the smoke still settling over Rome from the symphony of fireworks that embraces the city every year on New Years eve. I hope you had a good holiday. My buses, trains, and planes travels through Germany, Latvia and Estonia was unusual, tiring, but it recharged a few internal batteries. While catching up on some email and web stuff today, I came across the following story that might appeal to the programmer folks who reside here. Here is a story of a couple of crazy guys who believed so strongly in a piece of educational software that they broke all rules to get it done. I heard parts of this story from Ron Avitzur many years ago, but you must read the whole story, especially to understand some of the parts involved in corporate software development. I had a (very) small contract for Apple in the Advanced Technology Group supporting a scientific software package during the time that Ron and Greg were developing this software; what he writes is so true from what I remember of those years; I couldn't help smiling. Amara The Graphing Calculator Story http://www.pacifict.com/Story/ quote from the page: "Why did Greg and I do something so ludicrous as sneaking into an eight-billion-dollar corporation to do volunteer work? Apple was having financial troubles then, so we joked that we were volunteering for a nonprofit organization. In reality, our motivation was complex. Partly, the PowerPC was an awesome machine, and we wanted to show off what could be done with it; in the Spinal Tap idiom, we said, "OK, this one goes to eleven." Partly, we were thinking of the storytelling value. Partly, it was a macho computer guy thing - we had never shipped a million copies of software before. Mostly, Greg and I felt that creating quality educational software was a public service. We were doing it to help kids learn math. Public schools are too poor to buy software, so the most effective way to deliver it is to install it at the factory. Beyond this lies another set of questions, both psychological and political. Was I doing this out of bitterness that my project had been canceled? Was I subversively coopting the resources of a multinational corporation for my own ends? Or was I naive, manipulated by the system into working incredibly hard for its benefit? Was I a loose cannon, driven by arrogance and ego, or was I just devoted to furthering the cause of education? I view the events as an experiment in subverting power structures. I had none of the traditional power over others that is inherent to the structure of corporations and bureaucracies. I had neither budget nor headcount. I answered to no one, and no one had to do anything I asked. Dozens of people collaborated spontaneously, motivated by loyalty, friendship, or the love of craftsmanship. We were hackers, creating something for the sheer joy of making it work." And: Discussion of this story on slashdot http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/22/0146243 -------- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 12:58:11 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:58:11 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > Yes, down with the obviously non-desirable self-powering robots! Not self-powering. That's something different. Down with carnivorous robots! Long live methanol-guzzling self-refuelling robot chassis! > I hear those nasty hackers, computer viruses, and sociopaths can > manipulate PCs to evil ends, as well. And don't forget sociopaths If PCs were cruising Predator drones you'd have a point. > running us down in automobiles, or rigging internal combustion engines > to explode in public areas, and making use of that bullshit "lever" Yeah, and fire hazard due to burning giraffes. > invention to hurl rocks at us, and use that nasty setback "fire" to > burn us. > > Good call, Hara! -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 1 13:08:38 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 05:08:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101125140.GW9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050101130838.13604.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Fri, Dec 31, 2004 at 07:23:25PM -0800, Adrian > Tymes wrote: > > As has been pointed out, these robots don't hunt - > > What, they can't hunt? A remote exploit there, a > code patch here, here ya go. One needs certain hardware to be a good hunter. If you're a 10 cm wide toy robot on 1 kmph wheels with no manipulators, it doesn't matter what software you run. Which doesn't mean that there can't be robots with the requisite hardware. But even human intelligence can see the potential for that, and is likely to guard against it when designing robots that could hunt well. > > and besides, their food sources aren't quite the > same > > as ours. > > Oh yeah, that makes me feel completely safe already. It should. When was the last time, outside of fiction, you saw a cow (or any other herbivore) eat a person? Or, for a closer analogy, a vulture (or any other carrion feeder) eat a living person? (They may circle, but they stay away until you're dead.) > > But putting those aside for the moment...if they > did > > evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most > likely > > How about you being their food? Self-optimization would argue against that. Humans don't make good food animals, compared to the food animals that humans have bred. Any robot running its own directives enough to want to eat humans would realize that. Any other robot wanting to eat humans would be doing so at the directive of other humans - and then it just becomes a new way for people to kill people. We've plenty of those, yet we're still around today. > > what would happen is the same thing that's > happened as > > more and more humans have "competed" for food over > > But robots are not animals. Do you mean to emphasize that they would not react like animals competing for food? True - but, likewise, the ability to meet needs with technological development has been one of the things setting mankind apart from other animals. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 13:35:18 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 14:35:18 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101130838.13604.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050101125140.GW9221@leitl.org> <20050101130838.13604.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050101133518.GG9221@leitl.org> On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 05:08:38AM -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > One needs certain hardware to be a good hunter. If No, people have lousy hardware. Are top of the foodchain, though. Hunting in packs will help, even with no or minimal tools. > you're a 10 cm wide toy robot on 1 kmph wheels with no > manipulators, it doesn't matter what software you run. Pretty contrieved example. Doesn't matter, I can still kill your grandma with one, by making her fall down the stairs. With a swarm of those, it's even easier. > Which doesn't mean that there can't be robots with the > requisite hardware. But even human intelligence can > see the potential for that, and is likely to guard > against it when designing robots that could hunt well. http://irobot.com/governmentindustrial/product_detail.cfm?prodid=32 Nevermind a PackBot with a shotgun or a Predator drone. Human intelligence, huh. > > Oh yeah, that makes me feel completely safe already. > > It should. When was the last time, outside of > fiction, you saw a cow (or any other herbivore) eat a Building systems which can run on plant material and animal carcasses is a Monstrously Dumb Idea. Such a component is only 1-2 evolutionary/design steps away from a killer. > person? Or, for a closer analogy, a vulture (or any > other carrion feeder) eat a living person? (They may > circle, but they stay away until you're dead.) > > > > But putting those aside for the moment...if they > > did > > > evolve to "compete" with us for food, then most > > likely > > > > How about you being their food? > > Self-optimization would argue against that. Humans > don't make good food animals, compared to the food > animals that humans have bred. Any robot running its Of course I'm assuming that all the easy prey is already gone. Or someone makes them preferrably hunt people. Maybe people with the wrong ID. > own directives enough to want to eat humans would > realize that. Any other robot wanting to eat humans > would be doing so at the directive of other humans - > and then it just becomes a new way for people to kill > people. We've plenty of those, yet we're still around > today. Actually, no, autonomous tools being killers is very, very new. In fact I doubt a single casualty has yet resulted from a completely autonomous killer drone. > > > what would happen is the same thing that's > > happened as > > > more and more humans have "competed" for food over > > > > But robots are not animals. > > Do you mean to emphasize that they would not react > like animals competing for food? True - but, > likewise, the ability to meet needs with technological > development has been one of the things setting mankind > apart from other animals. You're assuming that collectively people don't make monstrously dumb decisions. Unfortunately, they do. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 1 14:23:33 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:23:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] John Perry Barlow vs The Man Message-ID: <20050101140301.M87079@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Fri Dec 17 2004 : >But won't this will be appealed to a higher court? You wouldn't expect >the lowest level court to be particularly interested in making a bold >statement on the 4th amendment. Barlow wrote on 21 December a long blog about his trial and what was accomplished and not accomplished. I suggest to go there for all of the details. "The Windmill Takes the First One" http://barlow.typepad.com/barlowfriendz/2004/12/the_windmill_ta.html# more Here is beginning of his blog: -------------------- beginning quote When one is jousting windmills, the possibility of getting whacked by a windmill blade goes with the enterprise. While I'm a veteran of many Quixotic campaigns, I've never become fully immune to the sting of defeat, and I'm still absorbing last Wednesday's drubbing in the North San Mateo County Courthouse. (If you don't know what I'm talking about, please see my previous post, A Taste of the System.) To put it bluntly, we lost the first round in our effort to limit the scope of administrative searches of checked airline luggage to something vaguely compatible with the 4th Amendment which states: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." Actually, however, this loss was neither unanticipated, nor even unwelcome. We're aiming to set a precedent here, and in order to do that, we have to get to at least the state appellate level. This means that I have to lose twice (at the first hearing to suppress and then at the county appellate level) before I can win in a way that might begin to alter federal behavior. We may already be affecting federal behavior to some extent. I noticed that one of the links to A Taste of the System was from the TSA workers' website, so at least a few of those who toil in the bowels of baggage inspection are meditating on the hassles they might bring on themselves by reporting non-explosive contraband. The possibility that the bag in question might belong to some prickly fellow like me could make them think twice before calling the cops. (Or maybe not. I've learned from a TSA worker's account in the Miami New Times that some TSA workers are being offered cash rewards of up to $1000 for reporting drugs.) Moreover, we seem to have hit a public nerve that may encourage a more general prickliness about this stuff. I'm beginning to think that, whatever the judicial result, I've done some social good merely by standing up and saying, as many silently believe, that these searches suck. We got, and are getting, a fair amount of press. NPR ran a segment on All Things Considered Thursday. CNN is planning on covering the story, along with a broader look at TSA screening procedures, tonight. The Washington Post ran a story about it yesterday. There was also local coverage, including the San Jose Mercury News and San Francisco's KGO Television. And the Blogosphere lit up. For awhile on Thursday, according to Web tracker Bloogz, A Taste of the System was being linked more frequently than any other web page in English, save Google. I've received several hundred e-mails about this matter and the blog entry relating to it already has almost two hundred comments dangling from it. These seem to come in only two varieties: "Attaboy!" and "You're such an idiot for carrying drugs on a plane that you deserve whatever torments you've gotten or will get." (I hadn't realized that idiots might be exempted from constitutional protection - indeed, you'd think we need it worse - but about 20% of my correspondents seem to think otherwise.) All this fuss has been positive, I believe. (Though if there were any nasty federal lists I had made before, I've probably fixed that now...) Our rights have been slipping quietly away, one secret emergency regulation at a time. We need to either hop out of pot or wait meekly to be boiled in it. If my travails have inspired more discourse on the subject, then it's worth the additional risk. Still, I want to win this case in a way that will legally confine checked baggage searches to such targets as might actually endanger the aircraft. Achieving that objective will require a long row against a stiff current if my experience on Wednesday is any indication. -------------------- end quote -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 1 14:47:40 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 15:47:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] John Perry Barlow vs The Man (his request) Message-ID: <20050101144242.M77595@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> As a follow up, I suggest to spread the word on his request (from barlow.typepad.com/barlowfriendz/2004/12/the_windmill_ta.html#more) ---------------- ?"?I need to supplement my legal team and sharpen my research, and ?I would like your help in doing so. I'm looking for a criminal ?lawyer who is a confident litigator, a constitutional authority, ?and someone who is well-versed in the history and nuances of ?administrative search procedure. Any suggestions will be ?welcome, as will any research that might strengthen my case. If ?you're a lawyer or law professor yourself, I would appreciate ?your counsel. Even if you think it's a doomed mission, I'd like ?to hear from you (though I don't promise to listen)." ---------------- (contact him via his blog or at: barlow at eff.org ) Amara From jmcenanly at msn.com Sat Jan 1 15:30:11 2005 From: jmcenanly at msn.com (James McEnanly) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Carnivorous robot Message-ID: I have read the article http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/12/27/explorers.ecobot/index.html, and I seem to remember a story by Isaac Asimov, called That Thou Art Mindful of Him, concerning two robots who work on getting humans more accepting of robots. One of the things these robots do is to develop robot animals, including a bird which hunts down and eats insects. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From analyticphilosophy at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 15:35:51 2005 From: analyticphilosophy at gmail.com (Jeff Medina) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:35:51 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <5844e22f0501010735555d6e44@mail.gmail.com> This is such a bioLudd argument, I'm baffled by its appearance. Of course this technology can and hence may well be turned to some nasty use by a sadistic killer. The very same argument applies to real AI. Are you quite against the development of AI as well? After all, a tweak here and there in a moral subroutine, and a real AI can kill many more humans than a roving metal mountain lion. Building a variety of digestive systems may give us insight into the human digestive system, or insight into how to improve it and thereby make ourselves better off. (BTW, does anyone know the relative efficiency of methanol-burning as compared with biological digestion?) But, aside from that knowledge-based reason to pursue more biologically realistic robots, I quite agree with the examples mentioned earlier by spike. Technological progress will and should march on to better society, and ultimately make life safer and more comfortable, carnivorous-robo-phobia and other little kid comic book nightmares aside. On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 13:58:11 +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 01:23:14AM -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > > > Yes, down with the obviously non-desirable self-powering robots! > > Not self-powering. That's something different. Down with carnivorous robots! > Long live methanol-guzzling self-refuelling robot chassis! > > > I hear those nasty hackers, computer viruses, and sociopaths can > > manipulate PCs to evil ends, as well. And don't forget sociopaths > > If PCs were cruising Predator drones you'd have a point. > > > running us down in automobiles, or rigging internal combustion engines > > to explode in public areas, and making use of that bullshit "lever" > > Yeah, and fire hazard due to burning giraffes. > > > invention to hurl rocks at us, and use that nasty setback "fire" to > > burn us. > > > > Good call, Hara! > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > > > From rhanson at gmu.edu Sat Jan 1 17:19:18 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:19:18 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> At 12:03 AM 1/1/2005, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: >Happy New Year! Here's a little something to start off the year. It's a >holiday so you've got plenty of time to read, right? >http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/technical.html Well spoken. >Why should you pay attention to scientific controversies? Why graze upon >such sparse and rotten feed as the media offers, when there are so many >solid meals to be found in textbooks? Nothing you'll read as breaking news >will ever hold a candle to the sheer beauty of settled science. Yes! I have long tried to follow this strategy, and have advised others to do so as well. When people ask me for advise on what to read, I say just go into your local college bookstore, and browse the textbooks. If you can't spend all your reading time there in the store, well buy the most interesting ones and take them home to read. >I hold that everyone needs to learn at least one technical subject. >Physics; computer science; evolutionary biology; or Bayesian probability >theory, but something. Someone with no technical subjects under their belt >has no referent for what it means to "explain" something. Also great advise. To be fair, I would also say that everyone should read and understand one great novel, such as War and Peace. >Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you assigned >to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. This is your >Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your life. ... >Er, well, except that you could commit suicide when you turned five, >thereby preventing your Final Judgment from decreasing any further. Or if >we patch a new sin onto the utility function, enjoining against suicide, >you could flee from mystery, avoiding all situations in which you thought >you might not know everything. So much for that religion. Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jan 1 17:50:35 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 09:50:35 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Have the greens weighed in on this? http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/29/milk.cartons.ap/index.html "So much for the school milk carton Children drink more out of bottles, so schools switching Wednesday, December 29, 2004 Posted: 11:37 AM EST (1637 GMT) "Paper or plastic? Students prefer the latter when it comes to milk containers..." "(AP) -- Yet another familiar school-days object may be going the way of the inkwell and the slide rule. "Encouraged by a milk industry study that shows children drink more dairy when it comes in round plastic bottles, a growing number of schools are ditching those clumsy paper half-pint cartons many of us grew up with..." With the kids switching from relatively quickly biodegrading paper milk cartons to plastic bottles (which will be in the landfill for approximately an eternity) I am surprised no one has suggested legislation to encourage the old fashioned paper cartons. I am not a green, but even *I* can see this development is a big step backwards. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sat Jan 1 18:01:07 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 12:01:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Putting the tsunami into context Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050101115749.01b31ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> So far I haven't seen any theological explanations of the deaths from the Christmas tsunami. No Imam, to my limited knowledge, has decided that this means Allah is royally pissed off with terrorists. I'm reminded, inevitably, of events 250 years ago (when I was just a lad), and Europe had a brief crisis of belief when the earthquake of Lisbon, on All Saints' Day, 1755, destroyed thirty thousand people in six minutes. (I see that latest data for the current horror is `Deaths Pass 140,000'.) Voltaire wrote: ---------- Les D?lices, November 24, 1755 This is indeed a cruel piece of natural philosophy! We shall find it difficult to discover how the laws of movement operate in such fearful disasters in the best of all possible worlds-- where a hundred thousand ants, our neighbours, are crushed in a second on our ant-heaps, half, dying undoubtedly in inexpressible agonies, beneath d?bris from which it was impossible to extricate them, families all over Europe reduced to beggary, and the fortunes of a hundred merchants -- Swiss, like yourself -- swallowed up in the ruins of Lisbon. What a game of chance human life is! What will the preachers say -- especially if the Palace of the Inquisition is left standing! I flatter myself that those reverend fathers, the Inquisitors, will have been crushed just like other people. That ought to teach men not to persecute men: for, while a few sanctimonious humbugs are burning a few fanatics, the earth opens and swallows up all alike. ================================ Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 1 18:55:54 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 10:55:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050101185554.85143.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > Have the greens weighed in on this? Recyclable plastic. Yes, not all of it will be recycled, but a lot of it can be. And then there's biodegradeable plastic. From scerir at libero.it Sat Jan 1 20:01:31 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 21:01:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Putting the tsunami into context References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050101115749.01b31ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c4f03c$b09fe770$c7b61b97@administxl09yj> From: "Damien Broderick" > a brief crisis of belief when the earthquake > of Lisbon, on All Saints' Day, 1755, destroyed > thirty thousand people in six minutes. http://nisee.berkeley.edu/images/servlet/KozakBrowse?eq=5234 It is an interesting, huge collection of views (many are imaginative) of that (9? Richter!) earthquake, followed by a tsunami, and then (!) by the famous fire of Lisboa. "Contemporary reports state that the earthquake lasted between three-and-a-half to six minutes, causing gigantic fissures five meters wide to rip apart the city centre. The survivors rushed to the open space of the docks for safety and watched as the water receded, revealing the sea floor, littered by lost cargo and old shipwrecks. Tens of minutes later an enormous tsunami engulfed the harbour, and the city downtown." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1755_Lisbon_earthquake It seems possible that the meaning of "saudade" (nostalgia, spleen) is deeply entangled with that disaster. Actually there is, also, an interesting, unespected meaning of "saudade". That is nostalgia of the future, not of the past. Or, to say it better, a nostalgia of what our life (and their city, Lisboa) could have been. And it is not. From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 1 22:12:24 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:12:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <5844e22f0501010735555d6e44@mail.gmail.com> References: <8E745762-5B61-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4ef71$530c3b70$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <6.0.3.0.1.20041231220331.0293bb88@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <5844e22f0412312223385a2e69@mail.gmail.com> <20050101125811.GY9221@leitl.org> <5844e22f0501010735555d6e44@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050101221223.GJ9221@leitl.org> On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 10:35:51AM -0500, Jeff Medina wrote: > This is such a bioLudd argument, I'm baffled by its appearance. This is such a technofashist response, I'm baffled by its appearance. > Of course this technology can and hence may well be turned to some > nasty use by a sadistic killer. The very same argument applies to real What's the legitimate use for a robot that hunts and devours deer? Artificial predators to keep down herbivore population, great. Let's build them. System security being what it is, I can see armies of zombied robots making a nice bloody mess from a bunch of Boy Scouts. > AI. Are you quite against the development of AI as well? After all, a > tweak here and there in a moral subroutine, and a real AI can kill "Moral subroutine", eh. Maybe not even "3 Laws safe", heavensforbid. You probably find Minsky cutting edge, too. > many more humans than a roving metal mountain lion. Exactly. Which is why building a human-equivalent AI is an even dumber idea than a cannibal Terminator. > Building a variety of digestive systems may give us insight into the > human digestive system, or insight into how to improve it and thereby Nope, it's a bacterial fuel cell. > make ourselves better off. (BTW, does anyone know the relative Nope; that's uploading. > efficiency of methanol-burning as compared with biological digestion?) The point of methanol is that there are no trees brimming with methanol sap, neither animals with methanol blood coursing through their veins. (Also, methanol is cheap and ubiquitous). However, http://www.minatec.com/minatec2003/act_pdf/4_THURSDAY_Patillon.pdf says current DMFC prototypes have 85% efficiency. Compare that to http://www.tiem.utk.edu/~gross/bioed/webmodules/ATPEfficiency.htm Robots can be put into hibernation with basically zero metabolism. No such thing with higher animals. > But, aside from that knowledge-based reason to pursue more > biologically realistic robots, I quite agree with the examples Biologically inspired robotics is just great. Just, don't make it hunt, kill and digest live animals, and all is dandy. > mentioned earlier by spike. Technological progress will and should > march on to better society, and ultimately make life safer and more Technology per se has no ethics, its use has. You can use nuclear energy to move a mountain to prevent a catastrophe, or to nuke a city. I'm sure you can see a minor difference here. > comfortable, carnivorous-robo-phobia and other little kid comic book > nightmares aside. You must be reading different little kid comic books than me. In mine, CIA uses Hellfire missiles from Predator drones to assassinate people driving in cars in Yemen, and processes Afghani insurgents to shredded meat in nice PIR view, with high-speed guns from an airborne platform hovering outside of earshot. Judging from their movements, the poor fuckers never knew what hit them. Oh yeah, if you're so fond of using animals for fuel I'm sure this one http://www.foresight.org/NanoRev/Ecophagy.html will give you a stiffy. Enjoy. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 00:12:05 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 18:12:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities Message-ID: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Saturday, 01 January 2005 Hello all: After soliciting suggestions from both lists late last year, I did a little research of my own. Below find a list of "transhumanist" themed charities. I admit to using a vague term. It might mean at most a list of charities that most self-described transhumanists would consider worthy beneficiaries. Some examples of rejected charities follow at the list's end.If you've more suggestions, please post them back to the list. Charities * Future Studies o ~ Foundation for the Future o ~ Foresight Institute * Life Extension o ~ Methuselah Mouse Prize o ~ Immortality Institute * Intelligence Increase o ~ Singularity Institute * Other o ~ WTA o ~ Extropy Institute o ~ TV 2005 Scholarship Fund * Social Studies o Ethics + ~ Center for Responsible Nanotechnology o Microfinance + ~ Microcredit Summit Campaign + ~ Grameen Foundation USA o Your Rights Online + ~ Creative Commons + ~ Electronic Frontier Foundation * Space Migration o Advocacy + ~ National Space Society + Planetary Society + Mars Society o History + ~ Saturn V Restoration o Prizes + ~ Elevator 2010 + ~ X-Prize Foundation * REJECTED o Overly Political + IEET + American Libertarian Party + Free State Project + Cato Institute o Business-related or sponsored + Linden Lab + Sourceforge o Technophobic + Greenpeace + Most Environmental Groups (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's not technophobic?) o Local + America's Prize (Saturn V Restoration exempted for its role in humanity's first lunar landing) o No >H Character + International Red Cross -- Jay Dugger http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From reason at longevitymeme.org Sun Jan 2 00:27:51 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 16:27:51 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Jay Dugger > Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 4:12 PM > + Most Environmental Groups > (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's > not technophobic?) http://www.viridiandesign.org/ More of an umbrella and aggressively roving concept than anything else, but might fit the bill. Only selectively technophobic, I think. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From matus at matus1976.com Sun Jan 2 04:05:40 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:05:40 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000901c4f080$563c9eb0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> I suggest www.lifeboat.com for either 'future studies' or 'space migration' "The Lifeboat Foundation is a nonprofit, nongovernmental organization, dedicated to providing solutions that will safeguard humanity from the growing threat of terrorism and technological cataclysm. This humanitarian organization is pursuing all possible options, including self-sustaining technologies using AI and nanotechnology, with an emphasis on self-contained space arks." Michael > Charities > > * Future Studies > o ~ Foundation for the Future > o ~ Foresight Institute > * Life Extension > o ~ Methuselah Mouse Prize > o ~ Immortality Institute > * Intelligence Increase > o ~ Singularity Institute > * Other > o ~ WTA > o ~ Extropy Institute > o ~ TV 2005 Scholarship Fund > > * Social Studies > o Ethics > + ~ Center for Responsible Nanotechnology > > o Microfinance > + ~ Microcredit Summit Campaign > > + ~ Grameen Foundation USA > > o Your Rights Online > + ~ Creative Commons > + ~ Electronic Frontier Foundation > * Space Migration > o Advocacy > + ~ National Space Society > + Planetary Society > + Mars Society > o History > + ~ Saturn V Restoration > > o Prizes > + ~ Elevator 2010 > > + ~ X-Prize Foundation > * REJECTED > o Overly Political > + IEET > + American Libertarian Party > + Free State Project > + Cato Institute > o Business-related or sponsored > + Linden Lab > + Sourceforge > o Technophobic > + Greenpeace > + Most Environmental Groups > (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's > not technophobic?) > o Local > + America's Prize > (Saturn V Restoration exempted for its role in > humanity's first lunar landing) > o No >H Character > + International Red Cross > -- > Jay Dugger > http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 04:11:52 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2005 22:11:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <000901c4f080$563c9eb0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> References: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> <000901c4f080$563c9eb0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <5366105b0501012011368b7c@mail.gmail.com> I don't yet know about these folks, but their website brought up a whole class of charities I'd neglected: charities that take computer time. Starting with folding at home, nano at home (which seems dead), http://www.grid.org/projects/, the GIMPS, and other distributed computing projects. Suggestions welcome. On Sat, 1 Jan 2005 23:05:40 -0500, Matus wrote: > I suggest www.lifeboat.com for either 'future studies' or 'space > migration' > -- Jay Dugger http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ Sometimes the delete key serves best. From harara at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 2 04:27:42 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 20:27:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202322.02936480@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> How Newtonian. 1 ml of air has 10^19 molecules, and all we know are a few statistical values..... When you start with quantum theory and then recall the sensitvities in chaos, knowing probablities as described is obviously unknowable. Only a saint would think otherwise..... (Saint Laputa?) >>Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you >>assigned to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. >>This is your Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your life. > >Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign >them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about >them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 2 04:29:36 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 20:29:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202807.02968f98@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I expect the same plastic as in pop bottles, every part of which is totally recyclable, not done cuz source materials are so cheap. >With the kids switching from relatively quickly biodegrading >paper milk cartons to plastic bottles (which will be in the >landfill for approximately an eternity) I am surprised no >one has suggested legislation to encourage the old fashioned >paper cartons. > >I am not a green, but even *I* can see this development is a >big step backwards. > >spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Sun Jan 2 04:55:50 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2005 22:55:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> Message-ID: <41D77ED6.4020400@pobox.com> Robin Hanson wrote: > At 12:03 AM 1/1/2005, Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote: > >> Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you >> assigned to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. >> This is your Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your >> life. ... >> Er, well, except that you could commit suicide when you turned five, >> thereby preventing your Final Judgment from decreasing any further. Or >> if we patch a new sin onto the utility function, enjoining against >> suicide, you could flee from mystery, avoiding all situations in which >> you thought you might not know everything. So much for that religion. > > Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign > them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about > them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. (thinks) All events that actually happen, everywhere in the (any?) universe... hm. That sounds fair. But what about conditional probabilities? In what order is the Judged soul's judgment over all events extrapolated? In a single life, the linear ordering is obvious, even when we evaluate the conditional likelihood of other possible outcomes for any single branch. If we are to evaluate all events in the universe, how do we compute the joint probability of all those events together? -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 2 11:07:45 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:07:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] will the sun rise? Message-ID: <20050102110130.M72364@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Eugen Leitl: >Sun is harder because if you trap the radiation it will heat up >and bloat up and simultaneously reduce the fusion rate. Perhaps >you can blow off chunks of photosphere, by periodic/asymmetric >feedback of the solar output. >I don't see how this is a controlled disassembly process, though. >Ditto Jupiter. It seems to me that the convection process (usually assumed in the outer layers of a main sequence star) for transporting energy would make star-lifting very hard to control. I wonder if anyone has studied a scenario of asymmetric p-p chain(s) nucleosynthesis in a main sequence star like our Sun. In the later stages of a star's life, asymmetric burning is a standard feature in its evolution. The unprocessed hydrogen in a star's shell ignites when the star's helium core contracts, and this swells the star into a giant. The people who have written the old nucleosynthesis code (going back to the 1950s) usually assume spherical symmetry for main sequence stellar evolution and even with that, it was a hard problem because you have four first-order partial differential equations (PDEs) : (not writing out the equations.. see: http://www.amara.com/ftpstuff/fusionzone.txt) 1) 2) 3) 4) (stable layer- radiative) (unstable layer- convective) and four constitutive equations: A) B) C) D) Because our PDE's, we need four boundary conditions - Two are imposed at the center, and two are applied at the surface. If the star is in a steady state, and close to thermal equilibrium, then the quantities should depend on the density, temperature and chemical composition of the star, where all of them are functions of the radius r. If any of the equations (say, energy generation) are asymmetric, then our variables should track all of the three dimensional spatial variables too. In the 'old' days, the problem was computationally intractable, but today, it should be doable. Something along these lines was studied in a simulation of massive late evolution stars on their way to supernova. The simulation looked at off-center triggering of a star going supernova, which sent a very asymmetrical blob of hot material rising up through the star. At the point where the bubble surfaces, outer stellar layers are strongly accelerated, fly over the star surfaces, and then come together on the opposite side of the star. That focus then forms the center of the resulting explosition (November 2004, Physics Today :Kadanoff: Computational Scenarios, pg. 10) The bubble was started in just a slightly off-center position, but in a spherically symmetrical environment. -------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0405162 From: Alan C. Calder [view email] Date: Fri, 7 May 2004 23:27:35 GMT (306kb) Type Ia Supernovae: An Asymmetric Deflagration Model Authors: A. C. Calder, T. Plewa, N. Vladimirova, D. Q. Lamb, J. W. Truran Comments: 11 pages, 4 figures, some figures degraded to reduce size. Submitted to Astrophysical Journal Letters We present the first high-resolution three-dimensional simulations of the deflagration phase of Type Ia supernovae that treat the entire massive white dwarf. We report the results of simulations in which ignition of the nuclear burning occurs slightly off-center. The subsequent evolution of the nuclear burning is surprisingly asymmetric with a growing bubble of hot ash rapidly rising to the stellar surface. Upon reaching the surface, the mass of burned material is $\approx 0.075 M_\sun$ and the kinetic energy is $4.3 \times 10^{49}$ ergs. The velocity of the top of the rising bubble approaches 8000 km s$^{-1}$. The amount of the asymmetry found in the model offers a natural explanation for the observed diversity in Type Ia supernovae. Our study strongly disfavors the classic central-ignition pure deflagration scenario by showing that the result is highly sensitive to details of the initial conditions. -------------------------------------------------------------- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 2 11:36:37 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:36:37 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians Message-ID: <20050102113328.M79541@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Eliezer S. Yudkowsky sentience at pobox.com : >If we are to evaluate all events in the universe, how do we >compute the joint probability of all those events together? I'm looking forward to Robin's answer on this, but I think that either it doesn't matter what order you compute the joint probability, or else you calculate it based on what you know of the importance of the parameters. "In a continuous multiparameter situations, there is no hope for a single, unique "non-informative prior", appropriate for all the inference problems within a given model. To avoid having the prior dominating the posterior for _some_ function theta of interest, the prior has to depend not only on the model, but also on the parameter of interest or, more generally, on some notion of the order of importance of the parameters." Jose Bernardo, Adrian Smith, _Bayesian Theory_, Wiley, 2000, pg. 366. Perhaps you've seen the papers where cosmologists are estimating parameters from cosmic microwave background measurements. The next paper, in particular, shows in detail how to constrain the parameters on a grid using the Markov Chain Monte Carlo Methods, which cuts down the computations considerably. Amara Nelson, Christensen, Rate Meyer, Lloyd Knox, and Ben Luey (2001), "Bayesian methods for cosmological parameter estimation from cosmic microwave background measurements", Class. Quantum Grav. 18, 2677-2688. Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 2 16:39:02 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 17:39:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Latviju Dainas: Singing through History Message-ID: <20050102163220.M42866@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> A discussion of a few things Latvian-related, which I think are interesting. Latviju Dainas New Years Day, yesterday, I opened a box of books that have been sealed since 1994, 12 yellowed and dusty hardback books, stored with the rest of my boxes because I had no bookshelf space and because they were in a language that I couldn't understand very well. Yet, I have moved these particular books through three countries and six residences. So then why have I kept such a box? The books are a keepsake from my father: 12 volumes of _Latviesu Tautas Dziesmas_ (Chansons Populaires Lettonnes), Imanta Publishers, Copenhagen, 1952-1956, ed. A. Svabe, K. Straubergs and E. Hauzenberga-Sturma. I knew these books were special because Dad used to read from the books at bedtime to my sisters and I when we were little, but I didn't know how special were the books, until I spent some time yesterday learning about them from other books at home and on the Internet. The Dainis form a sacred cultural record. My twelve volumes contain a quarter of a million folk songs: "Dainas", ancient song texts originally intended to be sung, passed down over the millennia by oral tradition, and songs that relate loosely weave the fabric of Latvian values, philosophy, and way of life. The Dainas comprise one of the largest body of oral literature in the world (1). Comparable to the Dainas outside of the Baltic, are perhaps only those found in ancient Mesopotamia. How old are the Dainas? One scholar, Robert Payne, in "The Green Linden, Selected Lithuanian Folk-songs", Voyages Press, N.Y., 1964, wrote: "The dainas...represent a form of poetry as ancient as anything on this earth.... They have a beauty and pure primitive splendor above anything I know in Western literature, except the early songs of the Greek Islanders. They seem to have been written at the morning of the world, and the dew is still on them." Hermanis Rathfelders, in Acta Baltica, wrote that the Latvian Dainas were extremely ancient, preceding the milling of grain, so that the mythological and astronomical Dainas may reach back many thousands of years in time. A number of lines in the Sumerian-Akkadian Agushaya Hymn bear strong similarity to texts found nearly unaltered in the Latvian Dainas. Another of the Dainas speaks of "ice hills" - perhaps glaciers of the most recent glacial period - so that the Dainas may be among the oldest human records. "Latvju Dainas" contain not only song texts, but also description of customs, games, riddles, proverbs, fairy tales, legends, anecdotes, dances, magic spells, and other folk traditions. The Dainas depict every aspect of the ancient Latvian life; that is, their mythology (2): coordinating the person with the cycle of his/her own life, with the environment in which he/she's living, and with his/her society. As an example of mythology in the Joseph Campbell sense, the interpretation of the Dainas requires metaphors and the recognition of symbols. Ancient Latvian Religion If you guessed by now that the ancient religion of the Latvians was paganistic, pantheistic and polytheistic, then you would be right. The Latvians have traditionally been an agricultural society, and the ancients thought that the highest aim of human life was to live in harmony with Nature and other members of society. They maintained that all natural phenomena are intricately dependent on each other and that social interactions cannot be isolated from their physical counterparts in an inseparable web of dynamic relationships. Every person holds their own god(s); A person who holds or possesses Dievs (God) according to the ancient Latvian tradition, is a Dievturis. Therefore, a Dievturis, is literally a God-keeper or possessor. Personal worth and integrity was expressed in terms of possessing the many virtues, and there was no need for metaphors as sin, atonement or redemption. The Dainas stress the awe, enchantment and inexplicable mystery of 'existence'. Moreover, according to the ancient Latvians, our well-being is not determined by its inherent and immutable absoluteness, but our culturally determined response to it. In addition, they viewed the world and the universe as value-neutral. (3) >From (3) we learn: "Although officially christianized in the thirteenth century, the ancient Latvians did not accept Christianity until the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries ? and then only superficially. The main reason for this was the non-acceptance of the indigenous population as equals by the ruling German nobility. The language used in the churches for many centuries was either Latin or German and the Latvians could not understand what was being preached. These factors, along with the many punitive acts inflicted by the ruling German landowners, forced the indigenous population to keep their old traditions, deities and basic social structure. The cement for this continuity was the Dainas. With their strict metric and tonic structure, the Latvian folk songs helped memorization and prevented unchecked substitution of new words and phrases." [My note: Baltic song festivals were also key to the success of the Baltic people in keeping their culture during the 50 years of Soviet occupation. See: http://www.amara.com/Independence/LestWeForget.html ] Latvian Language With such an ancient oral tradition, do the Latvians have an ancient written language too? The answer is yes. Lithuanian and Latvian are the oldest Indo-European tongues, living or dead, and the some linguists have said (4) that Sanskrit, Latin and ancient Greek derive from them. Kaulins suggested (4) that the "original" Indo-European language can be reconstruced in near entirety from the current Latvian language. The Latvian language is spoken by about 1.5 million inhabitants of Latvia, by several hundred thousand Latvians in other former Soviet republics, and elsewhere, and by several hundred thousand WWII refugees (my father, for example) and their descendants all over the world. I didn't get very far in my Latvian language studies when I finally found a Latvian teacher in 1995 in Palo Alto, because German language and Germany move preparations suddenly became a high priority. I wrote some things about the Latvian language on my web page though: http://www.amara.com/aboutme/latvian.html#language and I even try to sing: http://www.amara.com/aboutme/latdidley.html References ----------------- (1) Latvia - Cabinet of Folksongs - as a Part of the Archives of Latvian Folklore http://portal.unesco.org/ci/en/ev.php-URL_ID=4842&URL_DO=DO_TOPI C&URL_SECTION=201.html (2) Mythology for Transhumans (Graps) http://www.transhumanism.org/index.php/th/more/318/ (3) Ancient Latvian Religion http://www.lituanus.org/1987/87_3_06.htm (4) Kaulins, Andis, _The Baltic: Origain of the Indo-European Languages and Peoples_, quoted in: _Latvian Language_ by Antonia Millers, Echo Publishers, Menlo Park, California, 1979, pg. 2. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Other fun links ---------------------------------------------------------------- Nera?tna?s (shameless, naughty, erotic, or bawdy) Dainas http://faculty.stcc.edu/zagarins/sveiks/2002/AABS/AVB_doctoral_thesis/1 1.htm Introduction on the web page: "In his description of a Kurland wedding in 1649 Paul Einhorn in Historia Lettica is horrified: "They sing such unchaste, debauched, and profligate (nesk?i?stas, netiklas un vieglpra?ti?gas) songs day and night without stopping that even Satan himself couldn?t conceive of anything more immoral and shameless (nesk?i?stas, bezkauni?gas). His descriptions are informative, though his opinion is that Latvian peasants are uncouth savages. He describes mumming and Yule log evening in Reformatio Gentis Letticae in Ducatu Curlandiae (1636) as being a shameless celebration with eating, drinking, dancing, jumping, shouting, and making terrible noise going from one house to another." ---------------------------------------------------------------- The Ancient Latvian Festivals http://theoldpath.com/website/iceheart/page4.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- Linguistics and Poetics of Latvian Folksongs Edited by Vaira Vikis-Freibergs http://www.mqup.mcgill.ca/book.php?bookid=848 Introduction on the web page: Latvian folk songs or dainas make up one of the largest bodies of oral literature in the world. Vaira Vikis-Freibergs has assembled a distinguished group of scholars from eight countries who apply a broad spectrum of research approaches to the study of dainas. The result, Linguistics and Poetics of Latvian Folksongs, is a balanced overview of this active field of inquiry. Note: Vaira Vikis-Freiberga (proper feminine Latvian names always have 'a' at the end) was elected in 1999 as the president of Latvia, and she is one very remarkable lady: http://womenshistory.about.com/od/vikefreiberga/ A biography of Vi?k,e-Freiberga: _In the Name of Freedom_ http://www.balticshop.com/item.msql?item=2471&cat=0301&title=Book s_About_Latvia ---------------------------------------------------------------- A Fantastic Closet [From the Toronto-based Latvian-English newletter: http://www.torontozinas.com/index.php?id=arh&nr=41#AR6] http://www.dainuskapis.lv "In honour of the Latvian folk song collector Krisjanis Barons, the virtual dainu skapis (folk song closet) was officially unveiled. Now anyone can scan through thousands of Latvian folk song verses - from the comfort of their own home. Looking for a verse on the sun? Enter the word "saule" and in .011 seconds you'll see 970 "dainas" featuring the word sun! How about cows? Write in "govs" and get 44 verses about cows! Many verses are also accompanied by scanned in verses hand-written by K. Barons. Krisjanis Barons started collecting dainas at the end of the 19th century. One hundred years later in 1994, professor Imants Freibergs started inputting the dainas into a database - which is now accessible by anyone with Internet access. To date, the system contains 35,000 verses, 64,000 variants and 119,000 variations. It will take another two years until all the dainas have been placed in the "closet". In addition, the real closet contains thousands of never-published verses (also many which Barons considered unacceptable - but which now we'll at least be able to view)." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Happy Sunday... Amara www.amara.com From rhanson at gmu.edu Sun Jan 2 19:09:02 2005 From: rhanson at gmu.edu (Robin Hanson) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:09:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] A New Year's gift for Bayesians In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202322.02936480@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <41D62F3F.30907@pobox.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050101120048.02ba9758@mail.gmu.edu> <6.0.3.0.1.20050101202322.02936480@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050102124110.02ae3d00@mail.gmu.edu> I responded to Eliezer S. Yudkowsky >>Laplace takes every event in your life, and every probability you >>assigned to each event, and multiplies all the probabilities together. >>This is your Final Judgment - the probability you assigned to your life. ... > >Saint Laplace should instead extrapolate your probabilities and assign >them to all events that happen, regardless of whether you learn about >them. Then you won't want to commit suicide, etc. Hara Ra responded to me: >How Newtonian. 1 ml of air has 10^19 molecules, and all we know are a few >statistical values..... When you start with quantum theory and then recall >the sensitvities in chaos, knowing probablities as described is obviously >unknowable. Only a saint would think otherwise..... (Saint Laputa?) On reflection, all we really need is for Saint Laplace to extrapolate what probability you would have assigned to all the events you could possibly have observed during your lifetime. This is of course still unreasonably large. Eliezer responded: >All events that actually happen, everywhere in the (any?) universe... >hm. That sounds fair. But what about conditional probabilities? In what >order is the Judged soul's judgment over all events extrapolated? In a >single life, the linear ordering is obvious, even when we evaluate the >conditional likelihood of other possible outcomes for any single >branch. If we are to evaluate all events in the universe, how do we >compute the joint probability of all those events together? Good question. .... (think) .... OK, how about this. Saint Laplace could randomly pick some different set of key choices that you might have made in your life, and then extrapolate your actual probability assigning style from your actual life to this other set of choices. You'd be judged by this alternate probability. Or perhaps he could sample a thousand such alternative lives, and give you an average score over them, reducing your risk at the cost of more computation. If these key choices include the choices that you might have made to manipulate your final score, by limiting the amount of data you get, then it avoids that problem. But if these key choices include when you actually choose your probability assigning style, it wouldn't give you an incentive to make that choice well. So it comes down to whether Saint Laplace can distinguish probability assigning style choices from choices about how much data to get. By the way, I've been reading this related edited volume: Foundations of Bayesianism, ed. D. Cornfield and Jon Williamson, Kluwer, 2001. Robin Hanson rhanson at gmu.edu http://hanson.gmu.edu Assistant Professor of Economics, George Mason University MSN 1D3, Carow Hall, Fairfax VA 22030-4444 703-993-2326 FAX: 703-993-2323 From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 2 20:13:38 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:13:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth to collapse into the resulting cavities. spike From reason at longevitymeme.org Sun Jan 2 20:29:01 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:29:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] will the sun rise? In-Reply-To: <20050102110130.M72364@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org > [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org]On Behalf Of Amara Graps > Eugen Leitl: > >Sun is harder because if you trap the radiation it will heat up > >and bloat up and simultaneously reduce the fusion rate. Perhaps > >you can blow off chunks of photosphere, by periodic/asymmetric > >feedback of the solar output. > > >I don't see how this is a controlled disassembly process, though. > >Ditto Jupiter. > > It seems to me that the convection process (usually assumed in > the outer layers of a main sequence star) for transporting energy > would make star-lifting very hard to control. I wrote and maintained stellar modelling code a decade ago; pretty standard Henyey iterative stuff that could be used to generate a model of star B when starting from star A provided they weren't too different. This was used to model the evolution of a star by tweaking metallicities in successive models to reflect increasing age. One of the items I recall being a problem was hacking in a way of adding mass loss through stellar wind; this was very significant to the overall evolution in Pop III stars. The onion layering in the model was done in such a way as to try and keep the delta between variables in adjacent layers as low as possible. This meant that half of the onion layers in the model were in the very outer layers, where variables change greatly over a very small fraction of the stellar radius. Any radical changes to the outer layers caused great instability in the model, and finding a solution that both kept it happy and was justifiable in terms of the physics was quite hard. The other problem was core ignition events - about half of the evolutionary sequences couldn't be convinced to iterate past that point, and getting the thing past the first core ignition was a real art. Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 2 20:40:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 14:40:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 12:13 PM 1/2/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: >My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. This is precisely the kind of malicious anti-capitalist rumor that Michael Crichton warns us against in his new study of the evil impact of green agitators and global `warming' fanatics. In fact, as close study of his textbook STATE OF FEAR proves, this tsunami was brought about deliberately by so-called `greens' in order to foster sales of Crichton's book and demonstrate how effective these malevolent brutes can be in pursuit of their incomprehensible agenda. Damien Broderick From siproj at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 20:46:52 2005 From: siproj at gmail.com (_ _) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 14:46:52 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: Hello: Exxon/Mobil has been removing huge quantities of natural gas from Aceh. (Reputed to be the third of the total worldwide production for LNG). So the tsunami in part may have been induced by mineral extraction in the area. http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Newsroom/NewImages/images.php3?img_id=16775 Note the coast line shift etc. If Exxon/Mobil were implicated for blame in the case of this tsunami then the ramifications to offshore extraction of petroleum and natural gas are serious. That is a big if. As for litigation. Well I think the price of that companies stock could get pressured if people start thinking in that way. On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 12:13:38 -0800, spike wrote: > Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting > the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets > responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake > that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, > which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low > standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global > temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How > about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates > to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. > Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths > of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed > location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, > My father in law has suggested > that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > to collapse into the resulting cavities. spike -- siproj at rci.ripco.com Creator of alt.inventors and keeper of the Official alt.inventors FAQ despite what some alt.config sysadmin/waste of time/bandwidth actions. From nedlt at yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 21:54:58 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:54:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] book: The End Of Faith In-Reply-To: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050102215458.30109.qmail@web61201.mail.yahoo.com> Sam Harris, in The End Of Faith, doesn't limit himself to opposing religious fanaticism, but also the secular fanaticism of Noam Chomsky. Hariis thinks even moderate religiosity can be rather pernicious too, as it feeds religious fanaticism and terrorism: http://www.samharris.org/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 2 22:46:39 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2005 16:46:39 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] book: The End Of Faith In-Reply-To: <20050102215458.30109.qmail@web61201.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <20050102215458.30109.qmail@web61201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102164510.01a95c08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >Sam Harris, in The End Of Faith >http://www.samharris.org/ Looks bloody good, from the excerpts and amazon interview. Sample: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/feature/-/542154/104-1782834-9937530 < The kind of intolerance of faith that I am advocating in my book is not the intolerance that gave us the gulag. It is conversational intolerance. When people make outlandish claims, without evidence, we stop listening to them--except on matters of faith. I am arguing that we can no longer afford to give faith a pass in this way. Bad beliefs should be criticized wherever they appear in our discourse--in physics, in medicine, and on matters of ethics and spirituality as well. The President of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. Now, if he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ludicrous or more offensive. > Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 3 00:41:17 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 16:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] pest-devouring automaton In-Reply-To: <20050101221223.GJ9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050103004117.69657.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sat, Jan 01, 2005 at 10:35:51AM -0500, Jeff > Medina wrote: > > This is such a bioLudd argument, I'm baffled by > its appearance. > > This is such a technofashist response, I'm baffled > by its appearance. On the Extro list? We tend to lean towards techno-optimism and away from neoluddism of all sorts. Consider: we reject the Precautionary Principle - which your email seems to embrace - and accept the Proactionary Principle - which you seem to argue against. > Biologically inspired robotics is just great. Just, > don't make it hunt, kill > and digest live animals, and all is dandy. What about animals in hibernation? Or cryo-preserved? Or merely asleep? To different degrees of sensors, those all seem to be dead. (Granted, "asleep" is easy to distinguish, but not all robots will necessarily have means to tell.) From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 07:19:55 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2005 23:19:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] BusinessWeek: Asia Is Stem Cell Central Message-ID: <20050103071955.16475.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_02/b3915052.htm JANUARY 10, 2005 ? Editions:function changeRegion (regionVal) { setRegionCookie(regionVal, window.country); if (navigator.userAgent.indexOf("MSIE") != -1 & navigator.userAgent.indexOf("Mac") != -1) { //qChar = (self.location.href.indexOf("?") == -1 ? "?" : ""); self.location.replace(self.location.href); } else { location.reload(); } return false;}function makeRegionObj (displayName, regionVal) { this.displayName = displayName; this.regionVal = regionVal;}regions = new Array ();regions[regions.length] = new makeRegionObj ("N. America", "bw");regions[regions.length] = new makeRegionObj ("Europe", "bw_eu");regions[regions.length] = new makeRegionObj ("Asia", "bw_as");for (i = 0; i '); } else { document.write (''); } document.write (regions[i].displayName); if (regions[i].regionVal == window.region) { document.write (''); } else { document.write (''); } document.write (' | ');} N. America | Europe | Asia | Edition Preference if (!window.adOb) document.write('');var param = "pagepos=16&adsize=180x150&chan=mz" + mkAdVar("sub") + mkAdVar("site") + mkAdVar("editExclude") + mkAdVar("rnd");writeAd(param, "general_16.htm", "PP16", 1, 1, true); STORY TOOLS Printer-Friendly Version E-Mail This Story Graphic: The Asian Alternative ASIAN BUSINESS Asia Is Stem Cell Central The Tsunami's Tragic Toll Commentary: This Is Not Your Grandfather's India ?');//--> Find More Stories Like This ASIAN BUSINESS Asia Is Stem Cell Central Singapore and others are racing to grab the lead in a promising field How do you follow up on Dolly the Sheep? For Alan Colman, an English biochemist and a leader of the British team that created the first cloned mammal in 1997, the answer was to abandon the cold moors, heaths, and braes of Scotland for steamy Singapore.if (!window.adOb) document.write(''); if (!adOb.commonAdVars) setAdProps("mz", "", false);writeAd(adOb.pp9, "mz_general_9.htm", "PP9", 1, 1);Advertisementon error resume nextplugin=(IsObject(CreateObject("ShockwaveFlash.ShockwaveFlash.6"))) But it wasn't the tropical weather that drew Colman. Instead, the 56-year-old scientist chose the city-state because of its tolerant climate for research using embryonic stem cells. Not yet assigned specific roles in the body, these cells are like blank slates that scientists hope can be used to treat many different diseases. But because the cells are taken from human embryos, funding for such research has been restricted in the U.S. since 2001. Singapore, by contrast, is creating ``a center of excellence in stem cell research,'' Colman says, and there's plenty of funding there, too. That's part of Singapore's effort to build a biotech industry. The government has established a $600 million fund to invest in startups engaged in research on stem cells and other cutting-edge life-sciences projects. Last year, Singapore opened Biopolis, a 2 million-square-foot complex of laboratories and offices devoted to such research. So far, Singapore has ponied up $22 million for ES Cell International, the Biopolis-based company where Colman has worked as chief scientific officer since 2002. ES today owns six stem-cell lines (a line is a group of identical cells that come from the same embryo) and is focusing on developing treatments for diabetes. ``Here, there's huge support,'' says Robert Klupacs, ES Cell's chief executive officer. ``ASTONISHING'' PROGRESS Singapore isn't the only country in the region trying to profit from the U.S. restrictions. Australia, China, India, Japan, and South Korea all see stem cell research as a way to get ahead in biotech. The progress the Asians have made is ``astonishing,'' says Robert A. Goldstein, chief scientific officer at New York-based Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation International, which has teamed up with Singapore in funding ES Cell's efforts to find a cure for the disease. Many governments have been asking themselves: ``Since the U.S. doesn't seem to be taking a lead role, why don't we?'' observes Goldstein. What has created this opportunity? President George W. Bush put drastic restraints on federal funding for embryonic stem cell research in the U.S. three years ago because many religious conservatives oppose use of the cells, which often come from embryos left over after in-vitro fertilization. Given the different religious traditions of Asia, the debate isn't as heated. ``We don't have an ethical roadblock,'' says D. Balasubramanian, chairman of the Indian government's stem cell task force. Despite the progress the Asians have made, many scientists say they remain years away from developing real therapies using stem cells. Nonetheless, there is anecdotal evidence of early progress. A Chinese lab is looking into using stem cells to treat amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS), or Lou Gehrig's disease. And in October researchers at Korea's Chosun University said they had transplanted stem cells into a 37-year-old woman suffering from a spinal cord injury, partially restoring her ability to walk -- though there has been no independent confirmation of this claim. ``We didn't expect the patient to recover like this,'' says Chosun professor Song Chang Hun. ``It's almost like a miracle.'' Some governments have focused on importing talent. China, for instance, has recruited scientists from top universities in the U.S. to run research centers on the mainland. And in Singapore, 32-year-old Soren M?ller Bested, a self-described ``gene jockey'' from Denmark, is now the chief technology officer for Cordlife, a company that focuses on preserving and researching stem cells found in human umbilical cords. Bested and others involved in stem-cell work say the government's unflagging support gives confidence to scientists worried about shifting political winds. ``You won't find out overnight that what you've been working on for five years has been banned,'' he says. Still, Asian countries are far from assured of leading the way in stem cells over the long term. One big question is whether local universities can produce enough top-notch researchers, since relying on imported scientists won't work in the long run. Another concern is what some critics see as a lax approach to oversight and ethics in some labs, including the use of stem cells drawn from fetuses aborted in the second trimester in China. More worrisome for the Asians is the growth in alternative sources of funding for stem cell research in the U.S. While Bush's reelection ensured that the National Institutes of Health will not be opening its coffers to U.S.-based researchers in embryonic stem cells, on Election Day voters in California approved Proposition 71, which will provide $300 million a year to scientists conducting such research in the state. That will make it harder for the Asians to attract top scientists. Seoul, for instance, has dished out a total of just $27 million over the past two years in public money for stem cell research. Funding in Singapore and other countries also pales in comparison to what California plans to spend. ``There's going to be a very impressive network'' in California, says Randy Schekman, a professor of cell and developmental biology at the University of California at Berkeley and an adviser to the Singapore government. While he admires the ``gung ho attitude'' of Singaporean policymakers, Schekman says Proposition 71's basketload of money could overwhelm what the Asians can offer. ``We are going to attract an awful lot of people who will be eager to move'' to the Golden State, says Schekman. California may not be the only worry. Britain has a relatively liberal policy toward stem cell research and may soon kick-start funding for it. And at least five other U.S. states are looking to fund stem cell research, too. Even some of Asia's most prominent boosters concede that the region will have a tough time matching what the Americans have to spend. Singapore is building a scientific community, but currently ``it's sub-optimal,'' says Colman. ``The people who wrote Prop 71 are trying to recruit people right now. And when those top people go, so will their teams.'' The Asians insist they're still in the running, and that increased funding for research -- wherever it takes place -- will ultimately help everyone in the field. ``I don't think any one country can monopolize stem cell research,'' says Susan Lim, chairman of Stem Cell Technologies, a Singapore startup focusing on ways to extract adult stem cells from fat tissue. California's research effort will attract attention, but ``Korea, Singapore, and China will be even more committed to pursuing it,'' says Hwang Woo Suk, a researcher at Seoul National University. Now that they have a strong foothold, the Asians aren't about to give up, even as the climate for stem cell research improves elsewhere. By Bruce Einhorn in Singapore, with Jennifer Veale in Seoul and Manjeet Kripalani in Bombay La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Mon Jan 3 10:43:22 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 11:43:22 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Danger of 'Google History' Message-ID: <20050103103507.M68643@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> http://www.ocweekly.com/ink/03/28/news-levine.php March 14 -20, 2003 The Danger of Google History in a Time of War Or ?Dennis Prager called me a liar? by Mark LeVine Some quotes from the article: <<"Since I can?t find it on Google, you?re obviously lying," Mr. Prager informed me?and his listeners?as we returned from a commercial.>> <> <>I <> <> From hemm at openlink.com.br Mon Jan 3 12:13:19 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:13:19 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? References: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <01d301c4f18d$9ca3f4d0$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Man... I love this list :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "spike" To: "'ExI chat list'" Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 6:13 PM Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? > Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting > the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets > responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake > that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, > which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low > standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global > temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How > about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates > to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. > Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths > of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed > location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, > resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested > that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > to collapse into the resulting cavities. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 15:57:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 07:57:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050103155719.72073.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting > the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets > responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake > that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, > which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low > standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global > temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How > about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates > to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. > Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths > of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed > location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, > resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested > that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > to collapse into the resulting cavities. The main problem being that that area is known for some of the biggest earthquakes in history, including the Krakatoa eruption (which was just the latest). If a driver has totalled three cars in the past, you can't blame Jeep because it happened to manufacture the driver's latest death-sled. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 16:20:53 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:20:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050103162053.75709.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 12:13 PM 1/2/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: > > >My father in law has suggested > >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth > >to collapse into the resulting cavities. > > This is precisely the kind of malicious anti-capitalist rumor that > Michael Crichton warns us against in his new study of the evil > impact of green agitators and global `warming' fanatics. In fact, > as close study of his textbook STATE OF FEAR proves, this tsunami > was brought about deliberately by so-called `greens' in order to > foster sales of Crichton's book and demonstrate how effective > these malevolent brutes can be in pursuit of their incomprehensible > agenda. Don't you realize that the global banking/oil conspiracy is controlled from Pellucidar, the center of the Earth, and these earthquakes are the result of underground real estate development in the salt domes vacated by oil? I would've thought your psychics would have told you that.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 16:26:55 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:26:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Draft List of "Transhumanist" Themed Charities In-Reply-To: <5366105b050101161250ed75c5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050103162655.45820.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Excuse me, but the FSP is NOT a political group, it is a migration group, so you apparently have not been doing sufficient research. The FSP does not endorse or support any candidate, party, legislation, or issue. I note that all your rejected groups for 'too political' are libertarian or liberty-leaning groups. --- Jay Dugger wrote: > Saturday, 01 January 2005 > > Hello all: > > After soliciting suggestions from both lists late last year, I > did a little research of my own. Below find a list of "transhumanist" > themed charities. I admit to using a vague term. It might mean at > most > a list of charities that most self-described transhumanists would > consider worthy beneficiaries. Some examples of rejected charities > follow at the list's end.If you've more suggestions, please post them > back to the list. > > Charities > > * Future Studies > o ~ Foundation for the Future > > o ~ Foresight Institute > * Life Extension > o ~ Methuselah Mouse Prize > o ~ Immortality Institute > * Intelligence Increase > o ~ Singularity Institute > * Other > o ~ WTA > o ~ Extropy Institute > o ~ TV 2005 Scholarship Fund > > * Social Studies > o Ethics > + ~ Center for Responsible Nanotechnology > > o Microfinance > + ~ Microcredit Summit Campaign > > + ~ Grameen Foundation USA > > o Your Rights Online > + ~ Creative Commons > > + ~ Electronic Frontier Foundation > > * Space Migration > o Advocacy > + ~ National Space Society > + Planetary Society > + Mars Society > o History > + ~ Saturn V Restoration > > > o Prizes > + ~ Elevator 2010 > > + ~ X-Prize Foundation > * REJECTED > o Overly Political > + IEET > + American Libertarian Party > + Free State Project > + Cato Institute > o Business-related or sponsored > + Linden Lab > + Sourceforge > o Technophobic > + Greenpeace > + Most Environmental Groups > (Any suggestions for an environmental group that's > not technophobic?) > o Local > + America's Prize > (Saturn V Restoration exempted for its role in > humanity's first lunar landing) > o No >H Character > + International Red Cross > -- > Jay Dugger > http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ > Sometimes the delete key serves best. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more. http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com From pharos at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 16:46:10 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:46:10 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <20050103162053.75709.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050103162053.75709.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:20:53 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > Don't you realize that the global banking/oil conspiracy is controlled > from Pellucidar, the center of the Earth, and these earthquakes are the > result of underground real estate development in the salt domes vacated > by oil? I would've thought your psychics would have told you that.... > I've just read a news article that points out that the main cause of the tremendous damage was due to deforestation of the beaches (due to population expansion and the tourist industry). See: Forests, mangroves and thick vegetation along or close to the coast also stood their ground against the massive waves that lashed the southeastern Coromandel coast of India Dec 26. Nagapattinam wildlife warden A.D. Baruah pointed out that the coast between Nagoore and Nagapattinam has seen relatively less damage because of a government campaign to put up plantations. Only two deaths were reported from this forested area. "Damages have been restricted also in the Vedaranyam-Kodiampalayam section because of the Casuarina forest stretches promoted here since 1999," he added. "Matured plantations reduced the force of the killer waves." Elsewhere in Tamil Nadu, dense mangroves protected human settlements west of the coastline. M.S. Swaminathan, chairman of the M.S. Swaminathan Research Foundation (MSSRF), said in Chennai: "Though we cannot prevent tsunamis, we should certainly prepare ourselves to mitigate the impact on the population along the coastal ecosystems. "Our anticipatory research work to preserve mangrove ecosystems as the first line of defence against devastating tidal waves on the eastern coastline has proved very relevant today. The dense mangrove forests stood like a wall to save coastal communities living behind them," he added. End Quote. So humans chopping all the trees down left an unrestricted path for the wave to sweep all the construction away. Just as in the mountains deforestation has caused soil erosion and floods. It's obvious really, once it is pointed out. BillK From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 3 18:15:12 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 10:15:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050103181512.90940.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- BillK wrote: > > I've just read a news article that points out that the main cause of > the tremendous damage was due to deforestation of the beaches (due to > population expansion and the tourist industry). > > See: > > > Forests, mangroves and thick vegetation along or close to the coast > also stood their ground against the massive waves that lashed the > southeastern Coromandel coast of India Dec 26. > > Nagapattinam wildlife warden A.D. Baruah pointed out that the coast > between Nagoore and Nagapattinam has seen relatively less damage > because of a government campaign to put up plantations. > > Only two deaths were reported from this forested area. Evidence instead of the stupidity of those who can't see a selection effect when it's in front of them. Only two people died in the mangrove swamps because nobody goes vacationing there. Everybody was on the beaches.... doh!!! ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:40:21 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:40:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] A Proposed End-Goal: Justice Maximism In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20041230231355.029303f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <5B464DEDC661F724C8069D45F76C788D@weg9mq.centralmail.zzn.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20041230231355.029303f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41D99FA5.8030408@neopax.com> Hara Ra wrote: > Thanks for your transhumanist manifesto, but I have two concerns: > > 1. Is this a troll? > 2. This is too close to the old 'eugenics' of the 20s and 30s for my > comfort. > > "Edward Smith" wrote: > >> Generally, the primary purpose of transhumanism is to increase >> the efficiency of human functioning by modifying the human >> genome of zygotes, > The problem with 'efficiency' is that it has to be precisely defined. In industry that is often quite doable. In 'life' it isn't. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:42:33 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:42:33 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] paper or plastic In-Reply-To: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41D9A029.6050705@neopax.com> spike wrote: >Have the greens weighed in on this? > > >http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/29/milk.cartons.ap/index.html > > > Fizzy drinks (at least) taste better out of plastic. Discuss! -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:49:58 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:49:58 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41D9A1E6.1060100@neopax.com> spike wrote: >Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting >the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets >responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake >that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, >which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low >standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global >temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How >about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates >to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. >Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths >of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed >location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, >resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. > > > Try this as a 'cause' of high casualties. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4127927.stm "* Commonwealth Secretary General Don McKinnon has backed calls for a tsunami warning system in the Indian Ocean after Sunday's undersea earthquake. * He was speaking after scientists said many of the 20,000 people killed by the sea surges could have been saved by an international monitoring network. He told the BBC: "Surely there's a means of informing people in the Indian Ocean that this is about to happen." A similar system has existed in the Pacific Ocean for more than 50 years." -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From dirk at neopax.com Mon Jan 3 19:54:53 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 19:54:53 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] BusinessWeek: Asia Is Stem Cell Central In-Reply-To: <20050103071955.16475.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050103071955.16475.qmail@web41304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41D9A30D.3020604@neopax.com> Jose Cordeiro wrote: > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_02/b3915052.htm > > > Still, Asian countries are far from assured of leading the way in stem > cells over the long term. One big question is whether local > universities can produce enough top-notch researchers, since relying > on imported scientists won't work in the long run. Another concern is > what some critics see as a lax approach to oversight and ethics in > some labs, including the use of stem cells drawn from fetuses aborted > in the second trimester in China. > And here is the phrase which will give the Asian nations a perpetual edge over the US - "...lax approach to oversight and ethics" -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.298 / Virus Database: 265.6.7 - Release Date: 30/12/2004 From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 00:21:27 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 16:21:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] The first chimeras are born Message-ID: <20050104002127.51434.qmail@web41314.mail.yahoo.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63731-2004Nov19 Transhumanistically yours, La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From harara at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 4 00:20:38 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:20:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41D654D5.6020603@mac.com> <000001c4f107$952bd780$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050103161843.02946d58@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> An interesting set of legalistic arguments, but I suspect that even if all of man's activities were not present, the time of the quake might have been delayed by a second or so.... pure guesswork, no way I know of to compute a value. >Any good trial lawyer knows that the key to getting >the client a good settlement is in finding deep-pockets >responsible. So we must somehow determine that the earthquake >that caused the tsunami was a result of global warming, >which is a result of SUVs, not god. If we have low >standards for proof, how can we imagine rising global >temperatures having caused the Sri Lankan tragedy? How >about: higher temperatures caused the seismic plates >to expand, thus causing them to slip against each other. >Or: rising global temperatures changed the migration paths >of local birds, resulting in their landing in an unaccustomed >location, changing the loading pattern on the tectonic plate, >resulting in a sudden fracture? My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. > >spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 15:43:45 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bostrom letter In-Reply-To: <20050104153626.66332.qmail@web51603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050104154345.24552.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Nick Bostrom has had a letter published concerning transhumanism in Foreign Policy magazine, viewable now in the print January-February edition. The November-December issue of FP is still online, but when the current issue takes its place I'll provide a link to the letters section. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scerir at libero.it Tue Jan 4 19:24:04 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:24:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41D9A029.6050705@neopax.com> Message-ID: <001801c4f292$f4b97b80$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> Here you can see "Melencolia I", by Durer, there is also the 'enlarging' facility ... http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/durer/melencol.jpg.html Now, there are several papers, i.e. http://www.museum.cornell.edu/HFJ/permcoll/pdp/img_pr/melen_l.jpg http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/durer.html describing the cool octahedron in the picture, which, seen from above, from the sky, should be a Jewish star, just to say just one of the many peculiarities. But the problem is: can you see something on the front, diamond shaped face of that solid? What is it? Or what are they (because, if you move a bit, the shape seems to change ...)? From scerir at libero.it Tue Jan 4 19:28:22 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 20:28:22 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <000001c4f02a$71527ae0$6401a8c0@mtrainier><41D9A029.6050705@neopax.com> <001801c4f292$f4b97b80$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <001f01c4f293$8e17df60$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> > Now, there are several papers, i.e. ... I forgot one of the best ... http://did.mat.uni-bayreuth.de/mmlu/duerer/lu/schreiber.pdf From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 20:02:43 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 12:02:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) In-Reply-To: <001801c4f292$f4b97b80$f0b21b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20050104200243.86835.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > Here you can see "Melencolia I", by Durer, there > is also the 'enlarging' facility ... > http://www.artchive.com/artchive/D/durer/melencol.jpg.html > > Now, there are several papers, i.e. > http://www.museum.cornell.edu/HFJ/permcoll/pdp/img_pr/melen_l.jpg > http://www.georgehart.com/virtual-polyhedra/durer.html > describing the cool octahedron in the picture, > which, seen from above, from the sky, should be > a Jewish star, just to say just one of the many > peculiarities. Uh, no, a jewish star (star of David) is six pointed, not eight. > > But the problem is: can you see something on the > front, diamond shaped face of that solid? > What is it? Or what are they (because, if you move > a bit, the shape seems to change ...)? "The eyes follow me around".... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sentience at pobox.com Tue Jan 4 21:22:11 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer S. Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 15:22:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] *Annual* SL4 Chat, Wed Jan 5th @ 9PM Eastern Message-ID: <41DB0903.5040608@pobox.com> SL4's third Annual Chat will be on Wednesday, January 5th, 2005, at 9PM Eastern time. All transhumanists are welcome. To participate through a standard IRC client, connect to "sl4.org" on a standard IRC port (for example, 6667) and join channel #sl4. irc://sl4.org/sl4 To participate through Java applet, point your browser at: http://sl4.org/chat/ To clear up any confusion about timezones, go to http://www.time.gov/timezone.cgi?Eastern/d/-5/java to see the current time in the Eastern time zone. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 23:58:42 2005 From: jose_cordeiro at yahoo.com (Jose Cordeiro) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 15:58:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] EDGE. Martin Rees: Post-human evolution Message-ID: <20050104235842.74467.qmail@web41311.mail.yahoo.com> http://edge.org/q2005/q05_2.html MARTIN REES Cosmologist, Cambridge University; UK Astronomer Royal; Author, Our Final Hour I believe that intelligent life may presently be unique to our Earth, but that, even so, it has the potential to spread through the galaxy and beyond?indeed, the emergence of complexity could still be near its beginning. If SETI searches fail, that would not render life a cosmic sideshow Indeed, it would be a boost to our cosmic self-esteem: terrestrial life, and its fate, would become a matter of cosmic significance. Even if intelligence is now unique to Earth, there's enough time lying ahead for it to spread through the entire Galaxy, evolving into a teeming complexity far beyond what we can even conceive. There's an unthinking tendency to imagine that humans will be around in 6 billion years, watching the Sun flare up and die. But the forms of life and intelligence that have by then emerged would surely be as different from us as we are from a bacterium. That conclusion would follow even if future evolution proceeded at the rate at which new species have emerged over the 3 or 4 billion years of the geological past. But post-human evolution (whether of organic species or of artefacts) will proceed far faster than the changes that led to emergence, because it will be intelligently directed rather than being?like pre-human evolution?the gradual outcome of Darwinian natural selection. Changes will drastically accelerate in the present century?through intentional genetic modifications, targeted drugs, perhaps even silicon implants in to the brain. Humanity may not persist as a single species for more than a few centuries?especially if communities have by then become established away from the earth. But a few centuries is still just a millionth of the Sun's future lifetime?and the entire universe probably has a longer future still. The remote future is squarely in the realm of science fiction. Advanced intelligences billions of years hence might even create new universes. Perhaps they'll be able to choose what physical laws prevail in their creations. Perhaps these beings could achieve the computational capability to simulate a universe as complex as the one we perceive ourselves to be in. My belief may remain unprovable for billions of years. It could be falsified sooner?for instance, we (or our immediate post-human descendents) may develop theories that reveal inherent limits to complexity. But it's a substitute for religious belief, and I hope it's true. La vie est belle! Yos? (www.cordeiro.org) Caracas, Venezuela, Americas, TerraNostra, Solar System, Milky Way, Multiverse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jan 5 03:57:16 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:57:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050102143308.01ad6ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f2da$a62f0c30$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] sri lanka tragedy a result of global warming? At 12:13 PM 1/2/2005 -0800, Spike Jones wrote: >My father in law has suggested >that pumping all that oil out of the ground allowed the earth >to collapse into the resulting cavities. Damien Broderick: This is precisely the kind of malicious anti-capitalist rumor that Michael Crichton warns us ...Damien Broderick AHA! christians did it! From Brit Hume's grapevine: Disaster's Cause? A Muslim cleric on Saudi TV insists he knows what caused the deadly tsunami in South Asia - Christians. Saudi Cleric Muhammed Al-Manajjid says, "[Christmas and other Christian holidays] are accompanied by forbidden things, by immorality, abomination, adultery, alcohol, drunken dancing ... and revelry. ... [So] At the height of immorality, Allah took vengeance on these criminals." He did not explain why the vengeance was taken on largely non-Christian nations. Back in the U.S., meanwhile, a writer on the Web site Democratic Underground said President Bush and the war in Iraq could be to blame. The writer, quoted by The New York Times, says, "You know, we've exploded many millions of tons of ordnance upon this poor planet. All that 'shock and awe' stuff ... Perhaps the earth was just reacting to something that man has done to injure it." From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 5 06:19:01 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:19:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy Message-ID: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would people voluntarily donate if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? (Sometimes I just hate to think ...). "The 150,000 or so fatalities from the tsunami are well within the margin of error for estimates of the number of deaths every year from malaria. Probably two million people die annually of malaria, most of them children and most in Africa, or maybe it's three million - we don't even know. But the bottom line is that this month and every month, more people will die of malaria (165,000 or more) and AIDS (240,000) than died in the tsunamis, and almost as many will die because of diarrhea ( 140,000). And that's where we're stingy. Americans give 15 cents per day per person in official development assistance to poor countries. The average American spends four times that on soft drinks daily." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/opinion/05kris.html?oref=login&hp Olga From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 5 06:36:50 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 22:36:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy In-Reply-To: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050105063650.8661.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would > people voluntarily donate > if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? > (Sometimes I just hate to think > ...). Counterpoint: it seems that private American charities have collectively raised more money from Americans than the US government has sent. (US$150 million from the gov't, estimated online donations - not counting offline checks and the like - to US non-gov't charities for tsunami relief are also US$150 million.) Between this, the X Prize, and other things, I wonder if the US is starting to become the nation where people on their own initiative do things that only governments usually do in the rest of the world? (Which has both good and bad connotations.) From scerir at libero.it Wed Jan 5 07:37:12 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:37:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <20050104200243.86835.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000e01c4f2f9$644bbc40$d9c11b97@administxl09yj> From: "Mike Lorrey" > Uh, no, a jewish star (star of David) is six pointed, > not eight. The solid, should have a top triangular face, and a bottom triangular face, but the bottom one is 180? rotated. Now if you project the bottom triangular face onto the top face, you get the star. According to David Finkelstein Durer knew all that perfectly (Durer was a famous mathematician). http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/dfinkelstein.html http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ finkelstein/DurerRelativity4.pdf From pgptag at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 09:12:12 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:12:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Artificial Life, Inc. (V-Girl) expands into Europe Message-ID: <470a3c5205010501124670f9@mail.gmail.com> We Europeans can now have virtual girl-friends! (I still recommend the real thing though). Hong Kong based Artificial Life, Inc., a provider of mobile technology and applications has announced plans of expansion into the European markets. Artificial Life says that V-Girl uses artificial intelligence, text to speech, real time chat, user profiling and user specific content delivery, 3-D animations and graphics, context sensitive functions and menu icons, over 3000 different video and audio streams, build in user contests, games-in-game functions and offers interactive product placement opportunities for sponsors and advertisers. http://www.digitalmediaasia.com/default.asp?ArticleID=5207 From amara at amara.com Wed Jan 5 11:03:54 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 11:03:54 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead Message-ID: The tsunamis in southeast Asia caused a huge tragedy in human life, I think we all agree. While watching the contribution efforts in the private and governmental realm towards the tsunami/quake tragedy, I wonder : Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts (money, time, etc) for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by those caused by war, genocides, deportations, etc? Tens and/or hundreds of thousands of civilians lost their lives in a matter of hours/days too. The density of dead lives is much higher, as well (Note that the southeast Asia affected region is huge). Dead is dead. Each precious civilian life gone is a tragedy. What is the peculiarity in the human mind-set that lends to people feeling more compassion for the dead in natural disasters versus people feeling compassions for the huge number of lives lost in other (usually human-caused) circumstances? -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From dgc at cox.net Wed Jan 5 11:16:50 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 06:16:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41DBCCA2.1060407@cox.net> Amara Graps wrote: > > The tsunamis in southeast Asia ... Happy New Year, Amara! And Please tell you computer Happy New Year also. It thinks it is 1/05/2004, based on the time it placed in the header of this message. From amara at amara.com Wed Jan 5 11:35:16 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 12:35:16 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] human error (was: Dead is dead) Message-ID: I'm sorry Dan... Human error. I use a very old computer for most of my work, that requires me to set the date and time every time when I boot up... (obviously I was still asleep when I set my computer this morning :-( ) Amara P.S.: If anyone has used Mac laptop G4 titanium (from~2-3 years ago) that they want to get rid of, let's talk...) From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 5 13:52:30 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:52:30 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Opinions? Message-ID: <41DBF11E.8010903@neopax.com> http://www.rense.com/general61/seis.htm -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE Wed Jan 5 15:19:54 2005 From: Patrick.Wilken at Nat.Uni-Magdeburg.DE (Patrick Wilken) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:19:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] human error (was: Dead is dead) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40A27CE6-5F2D-11D9-8ADF-000D932F6F12@nat.uni-magdeburg.de> On 5 Jan 2005, at 12:35, Amara Graps wrote: > P.S.: If anyone has used Mac laptop G4 titanium (from~2-3 years ago) > that > they want to get rid of, let's talk...) Ahh... Why would I want to get rid of it? ;) best, patrick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 16:19:37 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:19:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy In-Reply-To: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050105161937.61167.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> The US government has committed $350 million to the tsunami effort, (while US charities have raised hundreds of millions already and some charities, such as Doctors Without Borders have said they have all they need), which at this date is only surpassed by Japan. On the flip side, the US failed to make the list of the top ten freest economies, which could indicate why our charitable giving is starting to lag behind past efforts. While property rights scores are tops in the US, government fiscal burden and tax rates have not kept up with the trend in the freest nations and are now ranked among the socialist states in level of tax burden. See: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/1/4/154315.shtml "15 cents per day per person"? Not our fault. All those tv commercials tell us we can support a child in the third world for $0.50/day. Based on that calculus, Americans support about 80 million kids in the third world. --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would people voluntarily > donate > if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? (Sometimes I just hate > to think > ...). > > "The 150,000 or so fatalities from the tsunami are well within the > margin of > error for estimates of the number of deaths every year from malaria. > Probably two million people die annually of malaria, most of them > children > and most in Africa, or maybe it's three million - we don't even know. > > But the bottom line is that this month and every month, more people > will die > of malaria (165,000 or more) and AIDS (240,000) than died in the > tsunamis, > and almost as many will die because of diarrhea ( 140,000). > > And that's where we're stingy. > > Americans give 15 cents per day per person in official development > assistance to poor countries. The average American spends four times > that on > soft drinks daily." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/opinion/05kris.html?oref=login&hp > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 5 16:21:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:21:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) In-Reply-To: <000e01c4f2f9$644bbc40$d9c11b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- scerir wrote: > From: "Mike Lorrey" > > > Uh, no, a jewish star (star of David) is six pointed, > > not eight. > > The solid, should have a top triangular face, and a bottom > triangular face, but the bottom one is 180? rotated. > Now if you project the bottom triangular face onto > the top face, you get the star. According to David Finkelstein > Durer knew all that perfectly (Durer was a famous > mathematician). > > http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/dfinkelstein.html > > http://www.physics.gatech.edu/people/faculty/ > finkelstein/DurerRelativity4.pdf And Israel didn't exist in that day and age, so now what is your point? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 16:39:41 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:39:41 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) In-Reply-To: <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <000e01c4f2f9$644bbc40$d9c11b97@administxl09yj> <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 08:21:07 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > And Israel didn't exist in that day and age, so now what is your point? > The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with it. The six-pointed star is a very ancient occult symbol going back at least to Ancient Egyptian times. However, in the Middle Ages it became the symbol of Judaism. "The Jewish community of Prague was the first to use the Star of David as its official symbol, and from the 17th century on the six-pointed star became the official seal of many Jewish communities and a general sign of Judaism, though it has no biblical or Talmudic authority. The star was almost universally adopted by Jews in the 19th-century as a striking and simple emblem of Judaism in imitation of the cross of Christianity." BillK From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 5 17:33:35 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 09:33:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050105173335.44241.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts > (money, time, etc) > for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by > those caused by war, > genocides, deportations, etc? Because they are manmade. Helping the victims may seem to tick off those who made them victims - and thus, potentially make a victim of the donor. Not to mention those citizens of countries directly involved in making that tragedy, who may have little sympathy for "the enemy" (the Marshall Plan being one famous exception) even if the enemy's civilians really had little to do with the war except get displaced by it. This is not the entire reason, but it is part of it. From matus at matus1976.com Wed Jan 5 18:06:17 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (matus at matus1976.com) Date: 5 Jan 2005 18:06:17 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> ----- Original Message ----- --- Amara Graps wrote: >> Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts >> (money, time, etc) >> for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by >> those caused by war, >> genocides, deportations, etc? Because they are manmade. Helping the victims may seem to tick off those who made them victims - and thus, potentially make a victim of the donor. ...This is not the entire reason, but it is part of it. ----------- 100,000 people killed is the moderate estimate of the number of people killed by Saddam in the Shiite uprising post Gulf War I. Whats the death toll in the Sudan now, 370,000? Why is it that when a wave kills 100,000 people the world clamors over itself to prove its the most helpful, but when a government or a tyrant does it, its 'none of our business' ANd what business does the NYT have blabbering about everyone ignoring the deaths from Malaria, you wouldnt even know people were dying from Malaria by reading the NYT. I really have to wonder what the world would be like if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or grieving victims of these horrific regimes. If we saw interviews with victims, videos of distressed starving people with nothing but the clothes on their back (there is plenty enough of that to go around in North Korea, and Burma, and Vietnam, and Laos, etc). Kofi Annan said of this tragedy "This is an unprecedented global catastrophe, and it requires an unprecedented global response. Over the past few days, it has registered deeply in the consciousness and conscience of the world as we seek to grasp the speed, the force and magnitude with which it happened" How is 100,000 dead 'unprecendented'? Have we never had to wrestle with grasping the speed, force, and magnitude in which Pol Pot took power and killed millions of Cambodians, or Saddam's Anfal campaign wiped out 10's of thousands of Kurds. Or Kim Jong Il's rusting factories and barren fields starved millions? It is absurd and greatly distressing and angering. Why does the media and the international community not care when governments kill hundreds of thousands, but fight over each other to show support and help those in need when a wave or an earthquake does it? Michael From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 5 18:19:03 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 10:19:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <20050105181904.5393.qmail@web81610.mail.yahoo.com> --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw > relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam > Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were > interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page > photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or > grieving victims of these horrific regimes. Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the same dictators for their efforts. Those in power in those situations know that unfavorable media coverage would be a quick way to bring the world's armies down on them, and that the best way to stop it is to stop the reporters. Nature, fortunately, doesn't discriminate against media coverage like that. From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 5 18:24:01 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:24:01 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> References: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <41DC30C1.1010205@neopax.com> matus at matus1976.com wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >--- Amara Graps wrote: > > >>>Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts >>>(money, time, etc) >>>for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by >>>those caused by war, >>>genocides, deportations, etc? >>> >>> > >Because they are manmade. Helping the victims may >seem to tick off those who made them victims - and >thus, potentially make a victim of the donor. ...This is not the entire reason, but it is part of it. > > ----------- > >100,000 people killed is the moderate estimate of the number of people killed by Saddam in the Shiite uprising post Gulf War I. Whats the death toll in the Sudan now, 370,000? Why is it that when a wave kills 100,000 people the world clamors over itself to prove its the most helpful, but when a government or a tyrant does it, its 'none of our business' ANd what business does the NYT have blabbering about everyone ignoring the deaths from Malaria, you wouldnt even know people were dying from Malaria by reading the NYT. > > > Or cars. Around half a million a year for our convenience. >I really have to wonder what the world would be like if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or grieving victims of these horrific regimes. If we saw interviews with victims, videos of distressed starving people with nothing but the clothes on their back (there is plenty enough of that to go around in North Korea, and Burma, and Vietnam, and Laos, etc). Kofi Annan said of this tragedy "This is an unprecedented global catastrophe, and it requires an unprecedented global response. Over the past few days, it has registered deeply in the consciousness and conscience of the world as we seek to grasp the speed, the force and magnitude with which it happened" How is 100,000 dead 'unprecendented'? Have we never had to wrestle with grasping th! >e speed, force, and magnitude in which Pol Pot took power and killed millions of Cambodians, or Saddam's Anfal campaign wiped out 10's of thousands of Kurds. Or Kim Jong Il's rusting factories and barren fields starved millions? It is absurd and greatly distressing and angering. Why does the media and the international community not care when governments kill hundreds of thousands, but fight over each other to show support and help those in need when a wave or an earthquake does it? > > > Well, to answer your question, the cure would be worse than the disease. I can just imagine a self righteous Bush and America invading all those tyrants for humanitarian reasons. Starting with the ones who have the most oil or other resources. Check out Iraq for references, unless you think the 100K+ dead who were (and are being) killed by the 'forces of freedom' are somehow better off than the ones killed by Saddam. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 5 18:44:33 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:44:33 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is Dead (was (no subject)) In-Reply-To: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> References: <20050105180617.14205.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: Ah, what a question! Yes, continual footage of man-made horrors should "raise consciousness" and would likely be a very good thing in many respects. That said, I quit watching TV news because it was all such hyped up nasty negative stuff. What good will it do the world if I don't sleep well at night and thus slack off on my job? None. Conundrum. I vote against war. But how to take out the Pol Pots of the world without it? Regards, MB On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like if the media > covered the murderous tyrants of the world as it does to this > tragedy. If we saw relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam > Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were interviewed daily and > newspapers ran front page photos every day of the tortured, beaten, > starved or grieving victims of these horrific regimes. If we saw > interviews with victims, videos of distressed starving people with > nothing but the clothes on their back (there is plenty enough of > that to go around in North Korea, and Burma, and Vietnam, and Laos, > etc). Kofi Annan said of this tragedy "This is an unprecedented > global catastrophe, and it requires an unprecedented global > response. Over the past few days, it has registered deeply in the > consciousness and conscience of the world as we seek to grasp the > speed, the force and magnitude with which it happened" How is > 100,000 dead 'unprecendented'? Have we never had to wrestle with > grasping th! e speed, force, and magnitude in which Pol Pot took > power and killed millions of Cambodians, or Saddam's Anfal campaign > wiped out 10's of thousands of Kurds. Or Kim Jong Il's rusting > factories and barren fields starved millions? It is absurd and > greatly distressing and angering. Why does the media and the > international community not care when governments kill hundreds of > thousands, but fight over each other to show support and help those > in need when a wave or an earthquake does it? From matus at matus1976.com Wed Jan 5 19:12:27 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (matus at matus1976.com) Date: 5 Jan 2005 19:12:27 -0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> ----- Original Message ----- --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw > relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam > Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were > interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page > photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or > grieving victims of these horrific regimes. Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the same dictators for their efforts. Those in power in those situations know that unfavorable media coverage would be a quick way to bring the world's armies down on them, and that the best way to stop it is to stop the reporters. ------------- Really? I suspect the occurences of that are way overblow. Christopher Hitchens visited North Korea and wrote a pretty damning commentary on it. Did anyone care? He wasnt capture, tortured or killed. I dont know, I think the truth is more of the ostrich syndrome, people dont want to know about these shitty countries because they dont want to be faced with the moral quandary of what to do about them. Among those who do know about them the leading mentality seems to be that it's none of our business anyway, that there is no standard of morality and we have no right to judge Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot or Idi Amin. How many western journalists have North Koreans murdered? Any? There are plenty of victims fleeing the horrific regime of North korea into China who could grace the front pages of the NYT every day, complete with horrific stories of famine and torture. Hitchens on North Korea... "All films, all books, all newspapers and all radio and television broadcasts are about either the Father or the Son[Kim Jong Il]. Everybody is a soldier. Everybody is an informer. Everybody is a unit. Everything is propaganda...Children are drilled to think of Japanese and Americans, in particular, as monstrous...The old justification for the Stalinist forced-march system was that at least it led to development. But even in Pyongyang, the capital city which is reserved for approved citizens, one can see that this excuse doesn't work. Neither does anything else; the place is stalled and hungry and subject to constant blackouts. There are no cars on the streets; there is no construction except of tawdry shrines to the Holy Family. A very small window of dollar bribery has opened up in recent years, but there's nothing to buy and no black market. Corruption at the leadership level is exorbitant, with palaces and limos and (a special obsession of Kim Jong Il's) megalomaniacal movie projects...I saw people scavenging individual grains from the fields and washing themselves in open sewers. On the almost deserted roads, animals do a good deal of the hauling. Domestic pets are nowhere to be seen. Perhaps most have been eaten, for the fact is that North Korea is a famine stat...Nobody knows the death toll-the best guess is between 1.5 and 2 million-but in addition a generation of physically and mentally stunted children has been "fathered" by the "Dear Leader." Well-attested rumors of cannibalism have filtered across the border to China, where a Korean-speaking minority has lately been augmented by refugees so desperate that they will risk shooting in order to brave the river. A system where you can't live but you can't leave is the definition of hell...deserted towns, empty factories, wandering and neglected children and untilled fields...the country's once productive coal mines have been allowed to flood, and that there are no pumps that can be brought to bear" (from -http://www.chosunjournal.com/worst.html) From scerir at libero.it Wed Jan 5 20:10:01 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 21:10:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] image(s) References: <20050105162107.25103.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <038201c4f362$8a189d30$3eb31b97@administxl09yj> From: "Mike Lorrey" > And Israel didn't exist in that day and age, > so now what is your point? The point ... perhaps it is possible to understand many details of "Melencolia I" (i.e. Finkelstein, in that brilliant paper, writes that Durer circumcised that cube to Hebraicize it) but it is difficult to realize the general meaning (if any) of it. Even the term "Melencolia" has no apparent meaning. (Ok that's also true for life, universe, etc.). s. The same, of course, could be said about Picasso's version of "Melencolia", see http://www.strangemusic.com/philostone_picasso.htm#top From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 5 23:58:45 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 15:58:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Still Stingy In-Reply-To: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: I reject the fundamental premise that one is morally obligated to help persons one does not know in any and all difficulties. However, you make a quite good point that we do not adequately support research into real killers that we can do something about before the fact. I would not call this "stingy" so much as irrational. -s On Jan 4, 2005, at 10:19 PM, Olga Bourlin wrote: > I wonder how much more (or how much less?) would people voluntarily > donate > if the USA didn't collect any taxes at all? (Sometimes I just hate to > think > ...). > > "The 150,000 or so fatalities from the tsunami are well within the > margin of > error for estimates of the number of deaths every year from malaria. > Probably two million people die annually of malaria, most of them > children > and most in Africa, or maybe it's three million - we don't even know. > > But the bottom line is that this month and every month, more people > will die > of malaria (165,000 or more) and AIDS (240,000) than died in the > tsunamis, > and almost as many will die because of diarrhea ( 140,000). > > And that's where we're stingy. > > Americans give 15 cents per day per person in official development > assistance to poor countries. The average American spends four times > that on > soft drinks daily." > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/05/opinion/05kris.html?oref=login&hp > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jan 6 01:21:08 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:21:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Make that Irrational [was Still Stingy] References: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000801c4f38e$00d2b110$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Samantha Atkins" > I reject the fundamental premise that one is morally obligated to help > persons one does not know in any and all difficulties. However, you > make a quite good point that we do not adequately support research into > real killers that we can do something about before the fact. I would > not call this "stingy" so much as irrational. Yes, now THAT - *irrationality* - we've got in droves. Has anyone checked out the Fox television network recently? It is chilling to realize that here we are - in 2004 C.E. - and the discussion on Scarborough (and there's nothing "fair" there) last night was "end times." Ahem ... as in did god(s)(esses) have anything to do with the tsunamis (and, if so, was this one of the signs of the end times)? The guests were certifiable nut cases, and yet the host listened politely and offered commentary on their deranged ravings. *Who* listens to this stuff? I mean, seriously ... More and more, it seems, we are inhabiting a Jerry Springer universe. Observe: we elected our official Jerry Springer President #1 again. Olga From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jan 6 03:23:34 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:23:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > world as it does to this tragedy... Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the same dictators for their efforts... ------------- In all this discussion, I haven't seen mentioned the risk of slanted, exaggerated or false reporting by enemies of the state, in a direct effort to topple the regime. The argument can be made that much of the reason the U.S. invaded Iraq was because of reports that they were developing dangerous weapons. It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and missing-explosives-gate. spike From spike66 at comcast.net Thu Jan 6 06:15:17 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:15:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] invariant be In-Reply-To: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> In Robin MacNeil's fascinating language program, a recording made in the 1930s of African American speech was played. Curiously, the invariant "be" was completely missing ("he be going" instead of "he is going). I had it in my mind that this signature ebonics usage was somehow adapted from Western African language groups, but now I am not at all sure it isn't a fairly recent American invention, perhaps in addition to the double negative often heard in such speech. Has anyone ideas or speculations on where, when or how the invariant be came to be? spike From zero.powers at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 07:59:07 2005 From: zero.powers at gmail.com (Zero Powers) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 23:59:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] invariant be In-Reply-To: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <7a3217050501052359543c4c7@mail.gmail.com> Hey Spike, happy new year! It's only a guess, but I'd bet that improper conjugation of the verb "be" goes all the way back to the first African speakers of English in the States. Given that none of the slaves were given English lessons, and whites' main interest in communicating in slaves was to give commands, I can't imagine that the slaveholders would have much interest at all in their slaves properly speaking the King's English. As long as he could tote that barge and lift that bale, so what if he says "I be tired?" I haven't heard MacNeil's language program, but my money says that the African American you heard probably was either fairly well educated, or in the company of persons who didn't improperly conjugate "be." Zero On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 22:15:17 -0800, spike wrote: > > > In Robin MacNeil's fascinating language program, a > recording made in the 1930s of African American speech > was played. Curiously, the invariant "be" was completely > missing ("he be going" instead of "he is going). > > I had it in my mind that this signature ebonics > usage was somehow adapted from Western African > language groups, but now I am not at all > sure it isn't a fairly recent American invention, > perhaps in addition to the double negative often > heard in such speech. > > Has anyone ideas or speculations on where, when or > how the invariant be came to be? > > spike > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From maxm at mail.tele.dk Thu Jan 6 10:27:56 2005 From: maxm at mail.tele.dk (Max M) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 11:27:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> Amara Graps wrote: > Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts (money, time, etc) > for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by those caused by war, > genocides, deportations, etc? I wonder why so much effort goes into the millitary, and so little into the development and deployment of disaster relief. They happen pretty often, and a lot of people dies in the aftermath by diseases. Flying short range helicopters with small amounts of suplies, and handing them out manually looks unbelievable uneffective. A world that can develop a-bombs, can shurely develop more efficient approaches for quick disaster relief. Perhaps something like a fleet of cargo planes, that can fly directly and carbet bomb remote areas with food, water, medicine, tools and comunication devices. -- hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark http://www.mxm.dk/ IT's Mad Science From sjatkins at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 10:39:22 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:39:22 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Make that Irrational [was Still Stingy] In-Reply-To: <000801c4f38e$00d2b110$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <004101c4f2ee$739af590$6600a8c0@brainiac> <000801c4f38e$00d2b110$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <948b11e0501060239267528bf@mail.gmail.com> ohmigod, the end times! Now that just about explains every little thing! Pass the beer and the popcorn sister. We have us ringside seats! -s On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:21:08 -0800, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > From: "Samantha Atkins" > > > I reject the fundamental premise that one is morally obligated to help > > persons one does not know in any and all difficulties. However, you > > make a quite good point that we do not adequately support research into > > real killers that we can do something about before the fact. I would > > not call this "stingy" so much as irrational. > > Yes, now THAT - *irrationality* - we've got in droves. > > Has anyone checked out the Fox television network recently? It is chilling > to realize that here we are - in 2004 C.E. - and the discussion on > Scarborough (and there's nothing "fair" there) last night was "end times." > Ahem ... as in did god(s)(esses) have anything to do with the tsunamis (and, > if so, was this one of the signs of the end times)? The guests were > certifiable nut cases, and yet the host listened politely and offered > commentary on their deranged ravings. *Who* listens to this stuff? I mean, > seriously ... > > More and more, it seems, we are inhabiting a Jerry Springer universe. > Observe: we elected our official Jerry Springer President #1 again. > > Olga > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 10:47:13 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 02:47:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <948b11e05010602475e466184@mail.gmail.com> After the American people were lied to about 9/11, after they put of the full investigation for 3 years and then stopped most interesting lines of question or took them off the record, after starting a war for no damn reason than the administration wanted it, after saying we were going to Afghanistan to get bin Laden only to later be told Bush doesn't really care about him, after the endless expansion of government secrecy, after all the terrorist alert scares that led to nothing, after all of this and more you dare float that the enemies of the administration (enemies for some unknown and dark reason) were really responsible for much of it and that everything is really ok? Is this really what you are saying at this very late and very dark date? If it is I don't understand how you can manage to lie to yourself that deeply. If you are rational you had best be the "enemy" of the state run by this administration. Because they are sure as hell yours if you love freedom and what this country was supposed to stand for. - samantha On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 19:23:34 -0800, spike wrote: > --- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > > I really have to wonder what the world would be like > > if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the > > world as it does to this tragedy... > > Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that > coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the > same dictators for their efforts... > > ------------- > > In all this discussion, I haven't seen mentioned the risk of > slanted, exaggerated or false reporting by enemies of the > state, in a direct effort to topple the regime. The argument > can be made that much of the reason the U.S. invaded Iraq > was because of reports that they were developing dangerous > weapons. It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for > in the U.S. much of our mainstream media appears to be > populated with those who oppose the current government, > and have shown themselves willing and eager to spew > slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to > topple that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and > missing-explosives-gate. > > spike > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 13:23:24 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 13:23:24 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] invariant be In-Reply-To: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <001c01c4f3b7$1a359360$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41DD3BCC.1000706@neopax.com> spike wrote: >In Robin MacNeil's fascinating language program, a >recording made in the 1930s of African American speech >was played. Curiously, the invariant "be" was completely >missing ("he be going" instead of "he is going). > >I had it in my mind that this signature ebonics >usage was somehow adapted from Western African >language groups, but now I am not at all >sure it isn't a fairly recent American invention, >perhaps in addition to the double negative often >heard in such speech. > >Has anyone ideas or speculations on where, when or >how the invariant be came to be? > > > Perhaps from an English dialect, probably West Country For example, much of the Southern US sound comes from cotton workers who immigrated from Lancashire. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Country_Accent "In other areas, /be/ may be used exclusively in the present tense, often in the present continuous; /Where you be going to?/ = /Where are you going?"/ -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 13:25:39 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 13:25:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> Max M wrote: > Amara Graps wrote: > >> Why is it easier for people to contribute efforts (money, time, etc) >> for tragedies caused by a natural disaster than by those caused by war, >> genocides, deportations, etc? > > > > I wonder why so much effort goes into the millitary, and so little > into the development and deployment of disaster relief. They happen > pretty often, and a lot of people dies in the aftermath by diseases. > > Flying short range helicopters with small amounts of suplies, and > handing them out manually looks unbelievable uneffective. > > A world that can develop a-bombs, can shurely develop more efficient > approaches for quick disaster relief. > > Perhaps something like a fleet of cargo planes, that can fly directly > and carbet bomb remote areas with food, water, medicine, tools and > comunication devices. > It would probably not take much for the US and EU militaries to stockpile relief supplies around the world and modify their logistical support to deliver it at short notice. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 13:30:00 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 13:30:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> Message-ID: <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> matus at matus1976.com wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >--- matus at matus1976.com wrote: > > >>I really have to wonder what the world would be like >>if the media covered the murderous tyrants of the >>world as it does to this tragedy. If we saw >>relentless video footage of the victims of Saddam >>Hussein or Kim Jong Il, if survivors were >>interviewed daily and newspapers ran front page >>photos every day of the tortured, beaten, starved or >>grieving victims of these horrific regimes. >> >> > >Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that >coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the >same dictators for their efforts. Those in power in >those situations know that unfavorable media coverage >would be a quick way to bring the world's armies down >on them, and that the best way to stop it is to stop >the reporters. > > ------------- > >Really? I suspect the occurences of that are way overblow. Christopher Hitchens visited North Korea and wrote a pretty damning commentary on it. Did anyone care? He wasnt capture, tortured or killed. > >I dont know, I think the truth is more of the ostrich syndrome, people dont want to know about these shitty countries because they dont want to be faced with the moral quandary of what to do about them. Among those who do know about them the leading mentality seems to be that it's none of our business anyway, that there is no standard of morality and we have no right to judge Kim Jong Il, Pol Pot or Idi Amin. How many western journalists have North Koreans murdered? Any? There are plenty of victims fleeing the horrific regime of North korea into China who could grace the front pages of the NYT every day, complete with horrific stories of famine and torture. > > > That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in putting these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to a whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the nuclear armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 17:06:37 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:06:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] intimidation of oligarchy vs. outright violence of dictatorship In-Reply-To: <000001c4f39f$1b2adcc0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050106170637.20194.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, this is the problem. Even in America, citizens with little 'pull' are reluctant to excessively criticize the powerful for fear of retaliation. After all, one is free to publically criticise a criminal, but that criminal is free to ask an underling to pour sugar in one's gas tank. This is something few talk about, it is a peril of oligarchy, as opposed to the guaranteed violence of a dictatorship. Here is an historical example of someone who paid a dear price for an expose: in the 1950s Victor Riesel had acid thrown in his face, blinding him, after his radio show went too far in exposing crime. >Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that >coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the >same dictators for their efforts... --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 17:33:23 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 09:33:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] intimidation of oligarchy vs. outright violence of dictatorship In-Reply-To: <20050106170637.20194.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050106173323.38577.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> One reason being an armed citizen is a good thing, and being politically involved can be a boon. Having people owe you favors is helpful. I recently found out I was under investigation by the Lebanon City Polict dept (which is rife w/ anti-gun democrats). Apparently, allegedly, someone anonymously threatened someone at the Lebanon District Court and the cops, of course, profiled every single white male who had had a court case in the last year (or so they say). I warned them against targeting leaders of minor political parties who are investigating vote fraud in the last election, that letting themselves become pawns in political tussles would be bad for their careers. The investigation is over. Was watching "Married with Children" this morning before going to work. A Chicago politician responds to Peg Bundy's question with "Are you a registered voter?" "No" she replied. "Then I wasn't talking to you." Societies get the government they deserve. --- Ned Late wrote: > Yes, this is the problem. Even in America, citizens with little > 'pull' are reluctant to excessively criticize the powerful for fear > of retaliation. After all, one is free to publically criticise a > criminal, but that criminal is free to ask an underling to pour sugar > in one's gas tank. This is something few talk about, it is a peril of > oligarchy, as opposed to the guaranteed violence of a dictatorship. > Here is an historical example of someone who paid a dear price for an > expose: in the 1950s Victor Riesel had acid thrown in his face, > blinding him, after his radio show went too far in exposing crime. > > >Quite a few journalists have tried to give us that > >coverage. They tend to get arrested or shot by the > >same dictators for their efforts... > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 18:59:07 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 10:59:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050106173323.38577.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What are the statutes concerning starter pistols loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded with live ammo. --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > One reason being an armed citizen is a good thing. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dirk at neopax.com Thu Jan 6 19:13:14 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 19:13:14 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41DD8DCA.4060704@neopax.com> Ned Late wrote: >What are the statutes concerning starter pistols >loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned >about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded >with live ammo. > > > A good modern weapon such as the Walther P99 pistol is very safe. Accidental discharge is virtually impossible. Besides, nobody says you have to keep a round chambered and the gun cocked. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.8 - Release Date: 03/01/2005 From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Thu Jan 6 19:29:27 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:29:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry Message-ID: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> > What are the statutes concerning starter pistols > loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned > about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded > with live ammo. Why would you bother? In any case, your question is based on a false premise. Modern firearms are very safe and engineered specifically to make accidental discharge impossible to the extent that it is mechanically possible. Obviously they cannot protect against gross errors in judgement and handling by the owner, which is the only way an "accidental discharge" will happen. And rudimentary competence and discipline can eliminate that problem. j. andrew rogers From humania at t-online.de Thu Jan 6 19:37:50 2005 From: humania at t-online.de (Hubert Mania) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:37:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Most memorable sentence of the month Message-ID: <001f01c4f427$377d0aa0$5b91fea9@humaniaz2wf5fi> Talking about financial aid for the nations that were struck by the tsunami, one member of this illustrious circle wrote on December 26th: "I'd suggest the US govt pro-rate support based on how cooperative local governments have been to the US war on terrorism." Just to remind you that brilliant and progressive thinking did not become extinct in 2004. From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 19:50:29 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 11:50:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <41DD8DCA.4060704@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050106195029.81682.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Not having a round chambered and the gun cocked means your reaction time is lengthened. The purpose of carrying a gun for self-defense IMO is for life-&-death situations. A determined assailant wont wait for you to unconceal a weapon, chamber a round and release the safety. >Dirk Bruere wrote: >Besides, nobody says you have to keep a round chambered and the gun cocked. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 6 20:00:21 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 12:00:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <20050106200021.44092.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> An aware assailant has enough time to avoid gross errors in judgement and handling of his weapon, while the victim is often taken by surprise. Are you asking why I would carry a starter pistol? Because I would feel safer scaring a bad guy off with the noise of a starter pistol than carrying live ammo around. It's superstition. I'm not religious but avoid crossing the path of black cats and walking under ladders. Carrying a real gun w/ ammo makes me feel superstitious. Every man to the devil his own way :-) "J. Andrew Rogers" wrote: Why would you bother? In any case, your question is based on a false premise. Modern firearms are very safe and engineered specifically to make accidental discharge impossible to the extent that it is mechanically possible. Obviously they cannot protect against gross errors in judgement and handling by the owner, which is the only way an "accidental discharge" will happen. And rudimentary competence and discipline can eliminate that problem. j. andrew rogers --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 6 21:11:22 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:11:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Dead is dead In-Reply-To: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> Message-ID: <20050106211122.68019.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Max M wrote: > I wonder why so much effort goes into the millitary, > and so little into > the development and deployment of disaster relief. Because most of the countries with resources to do so, have put it into disaster prevention or abatement instead. Tsunami warning systems, hospitals, 'quake resistant housing, that kind of thing. (Which is better: to have hundreds of thousands dead and more hundreds of thousands suffer then be helped, or to have no or a few dead plus a few inconvenienced?) Granted, they are the main beneficiaries of their spending - but then, investments are usually made with an eye towards one's own benefit, not primarily the benefit of others. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 6 21:43:43 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 15:43:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> One thing you should keep in mind. You don;t want to pull a gun out unless you intend to use it. Pulling a gun out incites the fight or flee response in the would-be attacker. They may flee, but they are just as likely to choose to fight. Your choice to pull out your starter gun may likely just make your attacker more angry! Once you cross that line, you don;t have the ability to stop your attacker because your gun isn't real. This is a VERY bad situation. Also, having a gun that you aren;t afraid of will probably make you more likely to pull it out since you know that you couldn;t actually hurt someone with it. Simply put, guns are not for scaring and they are not for killing. They are for stopping. If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 feet away, I will use it. Otherwise, I will keep to packing my .40 cal EAA Witness. ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Andrew Rogers" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > > What are the statutes concerning starter pistols > > loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned > > about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded > > with live ammo. > > > Why would you bother? > > In any case, your question is based on a false premise. Modern firearms > are very safe and engineered specifically to make accidental discharge > impossible to the extent that it is mechanically possible. Obviously > they cannot protect against gross errors in judgement and handling by > the owner, which is the only way an "accidental discharge" will happen. > And rudimentary competence and discipline can eliminate that problem. > > > j. andrew rogers > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 6 21:45:34 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:45:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] peaceful weaponry In-Reply-To: <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050106214534.53859.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Simply put, guns are not for scaring and they are > not for killing. They are > for stopping. If a weapon other than a bullet is > even invented that will > just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is > running at me from 20 feet > away, I will use it. Otherwise, I will keep to > packing my .40 cal EAA > Witness. Which is a challenge many people have tried to address. I've heard varying reports of success or failure - e.g., the taser either can or can't reliably stop people, there are experiments in directed energy to stun people but no actual deployments even years after successful lab tests, and so forth. I wonder if it'd be possible to create a quick-dissolving but temporarily strong foam, such that it is easy shattered after several minutes, but for the minute or so after it deploys (spreading foam over at least a meter diameter from point of impact - which is hopefully close to your target's feet), even that 280 lb. attacker would be stopped? (Buying time 'til the police arrive, but that's usually exactly what you need. If you need more time, shoot again, but do take a moment to make sure it's actually an attacker, and not a loved one getting a midnight snack or something.) From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 6 21:48:13 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 15:48:13 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 feet >away These are serious questions: Does this happen to you often? Has it ever happened? Do you expect it to happen? Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's likely? (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown weapons to deter them.) Damien Broderick From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 00:14:43 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 18:14:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net><00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> > >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 feet > >away > > These are serious questions: > > Does this happen to you often? > > Has it ever happened? > > Do you expect it to happen? > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's likely? > It has never happened to me. Nor to I expect it to. But I wouldn't drive from Indiana to Florida without a spare, even though I have never had a flat tire. I do not expect to have a flood or go without power for extended lengths of time, but I do keep jugs of water on hand just in case. I do not expect a lot of things, but that does not mean that I should not be prepared. I carry a pocket knife and I have a lighter in my glove box even though I do not smoke. Will I be stranded in the woods in the near future? I seriously doubt it. How do you avoid a flat tire? You don't drive. You can prevent getting into such situations by simply avoiding people. You know as well as anyone that risk is a very difficult thing to define. Assuming that there is no heaven and no God, I have this one life and that's it. The odds may be 10000:1 that I will have a situation that will call for a handgun, but those odds change according to where I go, what I do, the number of people I interact with, where I live, and even what I look like. Whatvever those odds actually are, they are not zero. Of course, if I could avoid it I would. Only an idiot goes looking for a fight. Violence may be the last resort of the incompetent, but that assumes you have full control over every aspect of your life. Personally I think that total control over one's life is an illusion. Random events occur, or "shit happens", however you prefer it. There are many things beyond my control that may kill me. I'll be damned if I let something within my control do it. Some may call this paranoia. I don't. To me, that line is crossed when fear creates behavior that is inconvenient. Carrying a gun is no more inconvenient to me than carrying a wallet. Noone calls me paranoid for being afraid of being stuck somewhere with no ID or money. I fail to see why the fact that I carry a gun could bother anyone. It's not going to "go off" on it's own. The safety needs to be dropped, then about 14 lbs of rear pressure applied to the trigger. The hammer itself has to travel rearward, and then forward. Dropping it on the hammer will not cause the weapon to discharge. The only thing that you would have to fear is that I would one day decide to take your life. If I make that decision, I do not need a gun to do it. Does this mean that everyone should have a gun? I don;t know. Convicted felons, batterers, people with mental problems, I would say "no" to. Decent law-abiding people that do their best to even avoid speeding tickets though, I doubt that a gun will turn them into monsters. w people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown weapons > to deter them.) > > Damien Broderick > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From matus at matus1976.com Fri Jan 7 00:05:41 2005 From: matus at matus1976.com (Matus) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:05:41 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> Message-ID: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> > > > > > That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in > general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in putting > these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting > them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to a > whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political > prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the nuclear > armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. > > -- Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi Amin, or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A large number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it as a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever been tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? Michael From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 00:48:35 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:48:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <20050107004835.87229.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Matus wrote: > > > > > > > > That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West > in > > general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in > putting > > these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least > supporting > > them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up > to > a > > whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political > > prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the > nuclear > > armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. > > > > -- > > Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi > Amin, > or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up > dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is > irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit > about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A > large > number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it > as > a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever > been > tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? Not to my knowledge. Sounds to me like professional courtesy.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 00:59:20 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 16:59:20 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106165138.0295d6d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. If I ever am mugged again, then I will pack iron, join the local gun club and stay in practice, take the required confrontation courses and if needs be, be truly deadly. However, I think, perhaps stupidly, that prevention is a better cure, so I keep my animal and (extropians or not) my 'psychic' senses (use 'intuitive' if you must) always alert in any situation of any possible danger. Bayes or not, it seems to work. But I haven't seen any tigers either. > > >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jan 7 00:57:49 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 16:57:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005301c4f44d$e3bf22f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050107005749.62765.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Some may call this paranoia. I don't. To me, that > line is crossed when fear > creates behavior that is inconvenient. Carrying a > gun is no more > inconvenient to me than carrying a wallet. That speaks a lot about the difference in perception. Some people live in circumstances where carrying a gun would very well be inconvenient. I.e., people who fly a lot or otherwise have to pass through many metal detectors or pat-downs (not always of the type intended to be a security measure, but which would detect a gun where none is expected). > Noone > calls me paranoid for being > afraid of being stuck somewhere with no ID or money. These days, there are locations where that worry would be viewed as paranoia, by the above definition - assuming a credit or ATM card doesn't count. Only in certain regions, however. From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 7 03:25:57 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 19:25:57 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106165138.0295d6d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Hara Ra Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. * >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker... That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using them as a mugging aid. spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 03:49:19 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 21:49:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <005001c4f46b$de63b190$9ceafb44@kevin> You would need a laser with a much wider beam than a pointer. Even the smallest movement at the source causes the beam at 15 feet away to move around wildly. EVen on a good day with all of your attention, you would be hard pressed to keep the point on one eyeball (most attackers will also have two eyes) When in an urgent fearful situation you can forget it. That's why in defensive shooting you learn to shoot for the chest and not the head. You need all the chances you can get to hit the target. The chest is the largest target. Eyeballs are simply too small of a target. However, I do like the idea of a super wide beam pulse laser type device. It could work similar to a camera flash, but would have to be more focused. If you could get a 2 foot beam at 25 feet you might have something. Compact it down to the size of a firearm, let me get 11 shots off in 3 seconds (just in case I miss the first 10 times) and you might even have me won. That 280 lb man will still land on me, but he won;t be able to fight. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: spike To: 'ExI chat list' Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 9:25 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] weaponry Hara Ra Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. ? >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker... That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using them as a mugging aid. spike ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 7 03:39:28 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:39:28 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Krasnikov: hyperfast travel/ time machines Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106213810.019efd08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9511/9511068.pdf http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508038 From dgc at cox.net Fri Jan 7 04:08:09 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:08:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> Message-ID: <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> The tsunami in the Indian ocean was a low-probability event, and the world was not prepared for it. We are somewhat prepared for a Tsunami in the Pacific, but only because we got nailed by the Alaska tsunami. It is not very smart to pat ourselves on the back in this regard. Consider other low-probability events: are we prepared for an Atlantic tsunami? What about a mid-continent major earthquake in the US, or a major (cat 5) hurricane in the Carolinas? The last major mid-continent US earthquake was in 1811 (New Madrid). The last cat-5 hurricane in the Carolinas was in 1893. If either occurred today, the effects would be horrific. A recurrence of either event is roughly as likely as the Indian ocean tsunami, to a crude first approximation: the last major Indian Ocean tsunami (Krakatoa) occurred in 1883. It is very difficult to get governments or citizens to prepare for such events, and a cost-benefit analysis typically shows that it is just not worth it in a cold-blooded economic sense. Therefore, we should be very careful when we claim that the US (or other "first-world counties") are somehow better prepared than Indonesia was. OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events individually. However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them collectively. Any major catastrophe results in a set of consequences, many of which are common. Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the world, as represented by our governments) might create a generic resource to respond to low-probability catastrophes. For example, "rich" countries might maintain major air-transportable caches of water -purifiers, staple food, field hospitals, tents, and light construction equipment, plus a ready reserve of people, to respond to any catastrophe. In the case of the US (and I assume most countries) This would be associated with the military. Note that this system is useful for many situations, including response to a man-made catastrophe such as a nuclear or biological attack. This means that it should be easier to sell the concept, since we can appeal whatever fear is most trendy. The system I refer to is useful in the first hours and days of the response. Given time, the world will organize a response to any catastrophe. The system I propose would not attempt to solve the longer-term problems in advance. It would simply try to deal with the immediate problems. First response within 24 hours, food and water within 48 hours, etc. Based on the response to the Indian ocean tsunami, the world will respond in a more or less effective manner in about two weeks, even with no pre-planning. What we need is a pre-organized standing response to keep people alive during the first two weeks. From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 7 04:59:27 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 20:59:27 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] what is truth? In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010602475e466184@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f475$af3f03b0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Samantha Atkins: ... I don't understand how you can manage to lie to yourself that deeply... Nah, I manage to tell myself the truth that deeply. The mainstream media manage to lie to me that deeply. ...If you are rational you had best be the "enemy" of the state run by this administration... - samantha Lets look at it. This isn't about the recent elections, for I had no strong preference for either of the front runners, and I already knew my guy would lose. What this is about is the transformation of the mainstream media, its slide into shameful irrelevance. Dan Rather presented counterfeit documents in a transparent attempt to sway a nation election. Then after he was caught, he came up with the bizarre stragegy of claiming that the content of the phony documents is true, a claim which was also shown to be false. This act alone might well have swung the election to the right, for it may have caused sympathy for the victim of slander. Samantha, the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. Then cBS announced an independent panel to investigate, requesting a report in weeks, not months: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39939-2004Sep21.html CBS News President Andrew Heyward said Monday that he hopes the panel, which he has not yet named, will report in "weeks, not months" and that he is "open to any recommendations. . . " Ok, weeks, not months. That phrase was uttered on 20 September 2004, which is now two weeks shy of four months, and no report. The missing report has become quite the scandal among mainstream media watchers. Please before you reply, keep in mind this topic is about the mainstream media, not the election. That is bygones, this is now. spike From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 05:32:09 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:32:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106165138.0295d6d8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106212428.0292c4f0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> To Spike and Kevin: I got conned. I was walking on the sidewalk crossing a driveway, a car pulls up and the guy asks where the 7-11 might be (all of 2 blocks away, but out of sight). As I turn pointing down the sidewalk, he hops out the car and punches my temple. He would have kayoed me but he missed by an inch. Laser pointers did not exist, and are a silly idea, and as this guy was 6" taller and arms longer than I, I doubt that a ball kick or pointer would have done anything but increase my injurys. I did not see him coming.... And frankly, if I had gotten the advantage, I would not be writing this post, I would be a lifer at Folsom. nuff said? ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 05:35:24 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:35:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Har Har Har. The USA RDF (Rapid Deployment Force) is barely a regiment (1000 men). Vs how many kilopeople got hurt here.... >OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events individually. >However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them collectively. Any major >catastrophe results in a set of consequences, many of which are common. >Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the world, as represented by our >governments) might create a generic resource to respond to low-probability >catastrophes. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From dgc at cox.net Fri Jan 7 06:10:36 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 01:10:36 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41DE27DC.6050103@cox.net> Hara Ra wrote: > Har Har Har. The USA RDF (Rapid Deployment Force) is barely a regiment > (1000 men). Vs how many kilopeople got hurt here.... > >> OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events >> individually. However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them >> collectively. Any major catastrophe results in a set of consequences, >> many of which are common. Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the >> world, as represented by our governments) might create a generic >> resource to respond to low-probability catastrophes. > > Hara, I do not believe that any existing entity can fulfill the requirement. I am proposing that we create an entity that can fulfill the requirement. In the US at the current time. the rhetoric would require us to focus on "terrorism." We could bring the appropriate resources into existence by justifying them in terms of defense against a "terrorist attack." The US should create a response to an attack against any major US city: such a response could, with a tiny incremental cost, also help respond to a low-probability external catastrophe. Take your example. Assume the US really has an RDF of 1000 men. If this force can truly be instantaneously effective against an arbitrary "enemy," then they could (with at most trivial additional training) be effective in a arbitrary catastrophe. 1000 people who can be deployed in 24 hours would make a huge difference in terms of lives saved. An organization of 1,000-men, applied to the problem immediately, might save 1,000,000 lives. Even if, in a fit of overweening hubris, you think that the US should provide 1/2 of the overall quick-reaction resource, we end up with 2,000 men (half ours, half others.) That's still a huge force multiplier compared to the response we can currently provide. From harara at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 06:35:47 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2005 22:35:47 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DE27DC.6050103@cox.net> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> <6.0.3.0.1.20050106213243.02961af8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> <41DE27DC.6050103@cox.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050106222647.029b02b8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Once upon a time, the USA was a part of UNESCO, but that's history. I certainly agree with your points, but don't feel much optimism per implementation. There is also the terrible problem of what is best over what time frame. Eliezer argues that all resources should go towards Singularity as most cost effective in human lives. I could argue for nanotechnology in the same way. I recall the days of home fallout shelters. The few that were built are now used for other things. In the meantime there is a cost for replacing consumables, fixing rot, stale food, bad meds, etc. Let alone keeping a crew capable of deployment, training others, etc to get it all going. substantial, and question is - is maintaining same more costly than the disaster recovery without such help. nasty question. And, from the nationalistic, and possibly libertarian pov, que bono? >Hara, I do not believe that any existing entity can fulfill the >requirement. I am proposing that we create an entity that can fulfill the >requirement. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Jan 7 07:43:20 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:43:20 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050106185907.7227.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: While I am not an expert like many in these parts I do know that guns do not "accidentally" discharge. They may be irresponsibly handled with a round in the chamber and safety off when not ready to fire or fired without attention to what one is doing. But that is not accidental. That is stupidity and irresponsibility. You learn that it is true what they say. Owning a gun teaches you to be a bit more responsible - to grow up a little and pay a bit better attention perhaps. - s On Jan 6, 2005, at 10:59 AM, Ned Late wrote: > What are the statutes concerning starter pistols > loaded with blanks? I for one would be too concerned > about accidental discharge to carry any weapon loaded > with live ammo. > > > > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: >> One reason being an armed citizen is a good thing. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sjatkins at mac.com Fri Jan 7 09:39:36 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 01:39:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Preparing for low-probability events In-Reply-To: <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> References: <41DD12AC.4010008@mail.tele.dk> <41DD3C53.6060305@neopax.com> <41DE0B29.8070805@cox.net> Message-ID: <0B7738AA-6090-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Dan, this is excellent! A sort of global emergency kit of sufficient size and content to handle the first week or two of getting a more precise and thorough response in motion. This could save an awful lot of lives. Why not suggest a UN program for precisely this purpose. I believe this is quite doable. - samantha On Jan 6, 2005, at 8:08 PM, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > The tsunami in the Indian ocean was a low-probability event, and the > world was not prepared for it. > > We are somewhat prepared for a Tsunami in the Pacific, but only > because we got nailed by the Alaska tsunami. It is not very smart to > pat ourselves on the back in this regard. Consider other > low-probability events: are we prepared for an Atlantic tsunami? What > about a mid-continent major earthquake in the US, or a major (cat 5) > hurricane in the Carolinas? The last major mid-continent US earthquake > was in 1811 (New Madrid). The last cat-5 hurricane in the Carolinas > was in 1893. If either occurred today, the effects would be horrific. > A recurrence of either event is roughly as likely as the Indian ocean > tsunami, to a crude first approximation: the last major Indian Ocean > tsunami (Krakatoa) occurred in 1883. > > It is very difficult to get governments or citizens to prepare for > such events, and a cost-benefit analysis typically shows that it is > just not worth it in a cold-blooded economic sense. Therefore, we > should be very careful when we claim that the US (or other > "first-world counties") are somehow better prepared than Indonesia > was. > > OK, it's not reasonable to prepare for each of these events > individually. However, we can perhaps prepare for all of them > collectively. Any major catastrophe results in a set of consequences, > many of which are common. Therefore, we (i.e. the people of the world, > as represented by our governments) might create a generic resource to > respond to low-probability catastrophes. For example, "rich" countries > might maintain major air-transportable caches of water -purifiers, > staple food, field hospitals, tents, and light construction equipment, > plus a ready reserve of people, to respond to any catastrophe. In the > case of the US (and I assume most countries) This would be associated > with the military. > > Note that this system is useful for many situations, including > response to a man-made catastrophe such as a nuclear or biological > attack. This means that it should be easier to sell the concept, since > we can appeal whatever fear is most trendy. > > The system I refer to is useful in the first hours and days of the > response. Given time, the world will organize a response to any > catastrophe. The system I propose would not attempt to solve the > longer-term problems in advance. It would simply try to deal with the > immediate problems. First response within 24 hours, food and water > within 48 hours, etc. Based on the response to the Indian ocean > tsunami, the world will respond in a more or less effective manner in > about two weeks, even with no pre-planning. What we need is a > pre-organized standing response to keep people alive during the first > two weeks. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 7 11:16:54 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:16:54 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Message-ID: Spike: >It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of >our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the >current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to >spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple >that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and >missing-explosives-gate. Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government at all except on a rare few radio talk shows, and in the Letters to the Editor sections of newspapers, and certainly, never on television. The rest of the world's media is diverse and they were reporting many things about the middle east if the US folks cared to take a look. If you have a subscription to The Economist, you might enjoy this article about what lengths many journalists, especially those working in poorer countries, go through in order to report news. The press freedom index is UP in most places in the world. http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." --Calvin From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 11:29:38 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:29:38 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Krasnikov: hyperfast travel/ time machines In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106213810.019efd08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106213810.019efd08@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:39:28 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9511/9511068.pdf > > http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508038 > That paper is from 1998. He has a later paper from 2002 that says 'No time machines allowed". BillK From brian_a_lee at hotmail.com Fri Jan 7 14:14:33 2005 From: brian_a_lee at hotmail.com (Brian Lee) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 09:14:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The economist is pretty good example of mainstream US media and they frequently publish articles critical of the US govt (as does Harpers, Atlantic, RollingStone, New York Times, New Yorker, Vanity Fair, San Francisco Chronicle, etc etc). I think if you only pick up a paper in Tulsa or LA and consider that representative of all US press you will form an incorrect opinion of how the US press/media operates. BAL >From: Amara Graps >To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:16:54 +0100 > >Spike: >>It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of >>our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the >>current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to >>spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple >>that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and >>missing-explosives-gate. > >Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to >find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most >mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- >a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government >at all except on a rare few radio talk shows, and in the Letters to the >Editor sections of newspapers, and certainly, never on television. > >The rest of the world's media is diverse and they were reporting many >things about the middle east if the US folks cared to take a look. If >you have a subscription to The Economist, you might enjoy this article >about what lengths many journalists, especially those working in poorer >countries, go through in order to report news. The press freedom >index is UP in most places in the world. > >http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A > >-- > >******************************************************************** >Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com >Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt >Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ >******************************************************************** >"It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." >--Calvin >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 14:56:51 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:56:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> References: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> Message-ID: <41DEA333.5090600@neopax.com> Matus wrote: >>> >>> >>That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in >>general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in >> >> >putting > > >>these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting >>them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to >> >> >a > > >>whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political >>prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the >> >> >nuclear > > >>armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. >> >>-- >> >> > >Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi Amin, >or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up >dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is >irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit >about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A large > > Primarily because it's not our problem. NK is a well armed state that nobody wants to prop up with aid. Sudan is just yet another instance of Africa imploding. It seems that all assistence to Africa does is prolong the misery. Just about every nation is Africa is a 'fake' - a few lines on a map drawn by the former colonial powers. Trying to maintain those fictions has a lot to do with what's happening and why Africa doesn't work. On top of that may be a cynical realisation that it's pointless to keep feeding people who are breeding beyond the limits of their ability to feed themselves. A case in point is the reaction to the tsunami in the Indian Ocean. I suspect a great deal of the Western response is because we now see those people as being 'us'. They are no longer seen as decrepit hopeless Third Worlders looking for handouts, but hard working folks just like us who have had a tough break. Brit dead are now expected to exceed 400. They were there as tourists having a holiday, just like as if they'd gone to Spain or Portugal. >number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it as >a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever been >tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? > > > Why should they be? All journalists that I know of have been explicitly allowed in by the govt and under careful supervision. It would be more instructive to look at regimes that actually kill journalists (inc foreign ones). -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 14:58:39 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:58:39 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41DEA39F.7080101@neopax.com> spike wrote: > Hara Ra > > > Years ago I was mugged. Though caught by surprise and temporarily > blind in one eye, and I didn't fall, I had to walk past him to get > away. Which I did, my utter fearlessness I think got to the bastard. > > I have a deep temper, rarely fully expressed. If I had a gun, I would > probably use it in an way which limits my freedom. > > ? >If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > > >just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker... > > > > > > That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a > > weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the eye, > > boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a pistol, > might > > still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think about it, its only > a matter > > of time before the bad guys start using them as a mugging aid. > Been done in Britain several years ago. Anyway, a high power flashgun would be better, esp at night. They can bleach out the pigments in the eye for temporary blindness lasting quite a while. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 15:00:55 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:00:55 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > > >> If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will >> just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 >> feet >> away > > > These are serious questions: > > Does this happen to you often? > > Has it ever happened? > > Do you expect it to happen? > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's > likely? > > (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown > weapons to deter them.) > > I'm 6' tall, weight around 200lb and have trained in martial arts for around 25yrs. I've never had a problem on the streets with anyone, even in the roughest parts of London. In fact, people have crossed the road to avoid me... -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 15:04:43 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:04:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107005749.62765.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107150443.87300.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > Some may call this paranoia. I don't. To me, that > > line is crossed when fear > > creates behavior that is inconvenient. Carrying a > > gun is no more > > inconvenient to me than carrying a wallet. > > That speaks a lot about the difference in perception. > Some people live in circumstances where carrying a gun > would very well be inconvenient. I.e., people who fly > a lot or otherwise have to pass through many metal > detectors or pat-downs (not always of the type > intended to be a security measure, but which would > detect a gun where none is expected). Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people do it all the time. It is only the public perception that it can't be done that creates a perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, as the public is also convinced that machine guns are illegal. Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of specially checked luggage. The fact that todays world tries so hard to make it inconvenient to carry, with attempts at gun free zones everywhere, makes it clear that the 2nd Amendment is being more than infringed (infringement is not abrogating a right entirely, infringement is merely "infringing" on boundary issues, i.e. the fringe) > > > Noone > > calls me paranoid for being > > afraid of being stuck somewhere with no ID or money. > > These days, there are locations where that worry would > be viewed as paranoia, by the above definition - > assuming a credit or ATM card doesn't count. Only in > certain regions, however. Or circumstances, for instance, any expenses beyond your available credit or the ATM limit (which can be as little as $300/day in most locations). But facts are facts, and today, you wouldn't be paranoid to worry about being somewhere without an ID, given recent court rulings and the Patriot Act, being without an ID is considered a arrestable/jailable offense. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Fri Jan 7 15:55:54 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:55:54 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] mainstream media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Thanks Amara. My mainstream media news source these days is mainly BBC and Business Week. I like the British take on things. If I need more info, it all comes from the internet. The internet rocks, it gives us control, it provides such a wide array of opinion. Question for the Brits: how is BBC perceived in Jolly Olde? Do you guys view it as biased? Or middle of the road? spike -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Amara Graps Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:17 AM To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) Spike: >our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the >current government...Two glaring examples, Rathergate and >missing-explosives-gate. Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government... http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25 PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** From pharos at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 16:16:31 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:16:31 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] mainstream media In-Reply-To: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:55:54 -0800, spike wrote: > Question for the Brits: how is BBC perceived in Jolly Olde? > Do you guys view it as biased? Or middle of the road? > Is this flamebait or what??? ;) The BBC is viewed through the lens of your own prejudices. They were seen as being very anti the Iraq war, anti Tony Blair's support of the USA and anti USA in their selective reporting from Iraq. All bad news about the USA, nothing good to say, just continual carping and sniping. But after having a big fight with Tony Blair, which he won, there were a lot of resignations and re-organisation in the BBC. So they may be a bit better now. Women managers and directors have a lot of power in the BBC. All their sitcoms seem to involve idiot men and smart women. Googling on BBC bias, complaints, prejudice, etc. should produce lots of interesting reading. BillK From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 16:44:19 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:44:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] mainstream media In-Reply-To: References: <000901c4f4d1$62145b60$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41DEBC63.5080307@neopax.com> BillK wrote: >On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 07:55:54 -0800, spike wrote: > > >>Question for the Brits: how is BBC perceived in Jolly Olde? >>Do you guys view it as biased? Or middle of the road? >> >> >> > >Is this flamebait or what??? ;) > >The BBC is viewed through the lens of your own prejudices. > >They were seen as being very anti the Iraq war, anti Tony Blair's >support of the USA and anti USA in their selective reporting from >Iraq. All bad news about the USA, nothing good to say, just continual >carping and sniping. > > > Which is fair, except that the BBC view of the Iraq war has been shown to be fairly accurate. >But after having a big fight with Tony Blair, which he won, there were >a lot of resignations and re-organisation in the BBC. So they may be a >bit better now. > > Blair got lucky. When it comes to the deceptive way he dragged us in as Bush's mercs the BBC had it right in essence. I don't call it biased when the 'bias' turns out to be largely a reporting of the truth. >Women managers and directors have a lot of power in the BBC. All their >sitcoms seem to involve idiot men and smart women. > >Googling on BBC bias, complaints, prejudice, etc. should produce lots >of interesting reading. > > > IMO it's too PC. Quite a lot is *not* said because it's politically incorrect. This occasionally results in 'cognitive dissonance' esp when the feminists meet the multiculturalists over Islam. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From pgptag at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 16:44:24 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:44:24 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making Message-ID: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> With the Transhumanist movement, one sees the Gnostic strain reasserting itself in the quest to transcend the degenerate body. The body is held in disdain. Advocates for enhancement technology exhibit disdain for the current status of the physical body. There is an abhorrence of the limitations that nature has placed upon the species. The insufficiencies of height, strength, vision, hearing, longevity and cognition are roadblocks to happiness and perpetual fulfillment. Nature has gotten the human race this far, but the inherent limits of existence are hurdles to be leapt. Like the earlier Gnostics, knowledge and insight are the keys to overcome the deficiencies of the physical. With the accumulation of research in genetic engineering, nanotechnology, artificial intelligence, and neural network interfacing, man will be able to overwhelm the frailty and deficiency inherent in the human condition and transform that which was weak into strength. The ability to repair, replace or enhance the various biological systems in the body allows one to overcome the limits of finitude. A logical outcome of this is the prospect of a multitiered view of humanity. If strong advocates of transhumanism have their wish, a new species of Techno sapien will emerge. http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/research_display.php?id=189 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 16:57:37 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:57:37 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DEBF81.7050708@neopax.com> Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: >With the Transhumanist movement, one sees the Gnostic strain >reasserting itself in the quest to transcend the degenerate body. The >body is held in disdain. Advocates for enhancement technology exhibit >disdain for the current status of the physical body. There is an >abhorrence of the limitations that nature has placed upon the species. >The insufficiencies of height, strength, vision, hearing, longevity >and cognition are roadblocks to happiness and perpetual fulfillment. >Nature has gotten the human race this far, but the inherent limits of >existence are hurdles to be leapt. >Like the earlier Gnostics, knowledge and insight are the keys to >overcome the deficiencies of the physical. With the accumulation of >research in genetic engineering, nanotechnology, artificial >intelligence, and neural network interfacing, man will be able to >overwhelm the frailty and deficiency inherent in the human condition >and transform that which was weak into strength. The ability to >repair, replace or enhance the various biological systems in the body >allows one to overcome the limits of finitude. A logical outcome of >this is the prospect of a multitiered view of humanity. If strong >advocates of transhumanism have their wish, a new species of Techno >sapien will emerge. >http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/research_display.php?id=189 >_______________________________________________ > > That's a very interesting POV. Modern Gnosticism... I think I'll spread this bit of info around. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Jan 7 17:17:00 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:17:00 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> >This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well worth >passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us who are >not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... > >Donald R Emery PhD > > >On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award > >by Bill Moyers > >On Wednesday, December 1, 2004, the Center for Health and the Global >Environment at Harvard Medical School presented its fourth annual Global >Environment Citizen Award to Bill Moyers. In presenting the award, Meryl >Streep, a member of the Center board, said, "Through resourceful, intrepid >reportage and perceptive voices from the forward edge of the debate, >Moyers has examined an environment under siege with the aim of engaging >citizens." Here is the text of his response to Ms. Streep's presentation >of the award: > >I accept this award on behalf of all the people behind the camera whom you >never see. And for all those scientists, advocates, activists, and just >plain citizens whose stories we have covered in reporting on how >environmental change affects our daily lives. We journalists are simply >beachcombers on the shores of other people's knowledge, other people's >experience, and other people's wisdom. We tell their stories. > >The journalist who truly deserves this award is my friend, Bill McKibben. >He enjoys the most conspicuous place in my own pantheon of journalistic >heroes for his pioneer work in writing about the environment. His >bestseller The End of Nature carried on where Rachel Carson's Silent >Spring left off. > >Writing in Mother Jones recently, Bill described how the problems we >journalists routinely cover - conventional, manageable programs like >budget shortfalls and pollution - may be about to convert to chaotic, >unpredictable, unmanageable situations. The most unmanageable of all, he >writes, could be the accelerating deterioration of the environment, >creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that is >causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into the >North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening >gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of >changes that could radically alter civilizations. > >That's one challenge we journalists face - how to tell such a story >without coming across as Cassandras, without turning off the people we >most want to understand what's happening, who must act on what they read >and hear. > >As difficult as it is, however, for journalists to fashion a readable >narrative for complex issues without depressing our readers and viewers, >there is an even harder challenge - to pierce the ideology that governs >official policy today. One of the biggest changes in politics in my >lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come in from >the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the oval office and in >Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology hold a >monopoly of power in Washington. Theology asserts propositions that cannot >be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a world view despite being >contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality. When ideology and >theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are always >blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, oblivious to >the facts. > >Remember James Watt, President Reagan's first Secretary of the Interior? >My favorite online environmental journalist, the ever engaging Grist, >reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that >protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the imminent >return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, 'after the last tree >is felled, Christ will come back.' > >Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was talking >about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out across the >country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true - >one-third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is accurate. >In this past election several million good and decent citizens went to the >polls believing in the rapture index. That's right - the rapture index. >Google it and you will find that the best-selling books in America today >are the twelve volumes of the left-behind series written by the Christian >fundamentalist and religious right warrior, Timothy LaHaye. These true >believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th >century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate passages >from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated the >imagination of millions of Americans. > >Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George >Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted to him >for adding to my own understanding): once Israel has occupied the rest of >its 'biblical lands,' legions of the anti-Christ will attack it, >triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews who >have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the >rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and >transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, they >will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of >boils, sores, locusts, and frogs during the several years of tribulation >that follow. > >I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've >reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the West >Bank. They are sincere, serious, and polite as they tell you they feel >called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical prophecy. >That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish >settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. It's >why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book >of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound in the great river >Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man.' A war with >Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed - an >essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time I Googled >it, the rapture index stood at 144 - just one point below the critical >threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of God will return, the >righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to eternal >hellfire. >(http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html)Arial> > >So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to Grist >to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist, Glenn Scherer - >'the road to environmental apocalypse.' Read it and you will see how >millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that environmental >destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - even >hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse. > >As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe >lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the U.S. >Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total - more >since the election - are backed by the religious right. Forty-five >senators and 186 members of the 108th congress earned 80 to 100 percent >approval ratings from the three most influential Christian right advocacy >groups. They include Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Assistant Majority >Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference Chair Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, >Policy Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, and >Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat to score 100 percent with the >Christian coalition was Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently >quoted from the biblical book of Amos on the senate floor: "the days will >come, sayeth the Lord God, that i will send a famine in the land.' He >seemed to be relishing the thought. > >And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 TIME/CNN poll found >that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in the Book >of Revelation are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think the Bible >predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive across the country with your radio tuned >to the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations or in the motel turn some >of the 250 Christian TV stations and you can hear some of this end-time >gospel. And you will come to understand why people under the spell of such >potent prophecies cannot be expected, as Grist puts it, "to worry about >the environment. Why care about the earth when the droughts, floods, >famine and pestilence brought by ecological collapse are signs of the >apocalypse foretold in the Bible? Why care about global climate change >when you and yours will be rescued in the rapture? And why care about >converting from oil to solar when the same God who performed the miracle >of the loaves and fishes can whip up a few billion barrels of light crude >with a word?" > >Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the lord will >provide. One of their texts is a high school history book, America's >Providential History. You'll find there these words: "the secular or >socialist has a limited resource mentality and views the world as a >pie that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece." However, "[t]he >Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited and that there is >no shortage of resources in God's earth while many secularists view the >world as overpopulated, Christians know that God has made the earth >sufficiently large with plenty of resources to accommodate all of the >people." No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling that >militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers." He turned out millions of the >foot soldiers on November 2, including many who have made the apocalypse a >powerful driving force in modern American politics. > >I can see in the look on your faces just how hard it is for the journalist >to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me put it on a >personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this world without >expecting a confident future and getting up every morning to do what I can >to bring it about. So I have always been an optimist. Now, however, I >think of my friend on Wall Street whom I once asked: "What do you think of >the market?" "I'm optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so >worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my optimism is justified." > >I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the >Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will protect the >natural environment when they realize its importance to their health and >to the health and lives of their children. Now I am not so sure. It's not >that I don't want to believe that - it's just that I read the news and >connect the dots: > >I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency >has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the environment. >This for an administration that wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, the >Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act protecting rare plant and >animal species and their habitats, as well as the National Environmental >Policy Act that requires the government to judge beforehand if actions >might damage natural resources. > >That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle tailpipe >inspections; and ease pollution standards for cars, sports utility >vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment. > >That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to keep >certain information about environmental problems secret from the public. > >That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against polluting >coal-fired power plans and weaken consent decrees reached earlier with >coal companies. > >That wants to open the arctic wildlife refuge to drilling and increase >drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of >undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last great coastal wild >land in America. > >I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental >Protection Agency had planned to spend nine million dollars - $2 million >of it from the administration's friends at the American Chemistry Council >- to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in their homes. These >pesticides have been linked to neurological damage in children, but >instead of ordering an end to their use, the government and the industry >were going to offer the families $970 each, as well as a camcorder and >children's clothing, to serve as guinea pigs for the study. > >I read all this in the news. > >I read the news just last night and learned that the administration's >friends at the international policy network, which is supported by >ExxonMobil and others of like mind, have issued a new report that climate >change is 'a myth, sea levels are not rising, scientists who believe >catastrophe is possible are 'an embarrassment. > >I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent appropriations >bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and obscene) riders attached to >it: a clause removing all endangered species protections from pesticides; >language prohibiting judicial review for a forest in Oregon; a waiver of >environmental review for grazing permits on public lands; a rider pressed >by developers to weaken protection for crucial habitats in California. > >I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the >computer - pictures of my grandchildren: Henry, age 12; Thomas, age 10; >Nancy, 7; Jassie, 3; Sara Jane, nine months. I see the future looking back >at me from those photographs and I say, 'Father, forgive us, for we know >not what we do.' And then I am stopped short by the thought: 'That's not >right. We do know what we are doing. We are stealing their future. >Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world.' > >And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are greedy? >Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability to sustain >indignation at injustice? > >What has happened to our moral imagination? > >On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And >Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'" > >I see it feelingly. > >The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a >journalist, I know the news is never the end of the story. The news can be >the truth that sets us free - not only to feel but to fight for the future >we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to despair, the cure for >cynicism, and the answer to those faces looking back at me from those >photographs on my desk. What we need to match the science of human health >is what the ancient Israelites called 'hocma' - the science of the >heart ..the capacity to see .to feel .and then to act as if the future >depended on you. > >Believe me, it does. Natasha Vita-More http://www.natasha.cc [_______________________________________________ President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org [_____________________________________________________ Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 17:25:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote:> > That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a > weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the > eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a > pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think > about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using > them as a mugging aid. Trying to re-invent the gun has always been a fruitless exercise. Essentially, ANY thing which leaves an attacker concious enough to get pissed off is a failure at replacing a firearm. Furthermore, you might stun a mugger THIS time with your laser pointy thingee, or taser, or whatever, but NEXT TIME, i.e. the next time you are outside your pod-hole, they will be forewarned and prepared to counter your defense. Very likely with a firearm. An effeminate distain for putting a rabid dog down permanently has always been, and always will be, a behavior which is not conducive to one's survival. Of course, if you insist on continuing to live in a jurisdiction which does not recognise your right to security of self, you are consciously accepting victimhood and slavish serfdom. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hal at finney.org Fri Jan 7 17:59:45 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:59:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Krasnikov: hyperfast travel/ time machines Message-ID: <20050107175945.C4C0A57E2F@finney.org> On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 21:39:28 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9511/9511068.pdf > http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508038 Basically this describes an improved version of the (in)famous Alcubierre warp drive, a hypothetical construction for FTL travel using exotic features of General Relativity. Krasnikov's analysis shows however that the Alcubierre warp can't be generated by the ship, it would require a series of external stations to warp space as the ship went past. He shows that it is impossible for a ship-carried warp drive to get from point A to point B faster than light. However, surprisingly, it is not impossible in principle to fly the round trip from A to B back to A faster than light. Basically it is done by having the ship warp space on the outbound leg, so that on the return leg it is going back through the space it warped. This allows Alcubierre-like effects to occur even with an on-ship drive. However there is no specific mechanism proposed that could do this, rather he just establishes that it is not inconsistent with GR. Hal From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 7 18:06:12 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 12:06:12 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com > References: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050107115523.019bad30@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Moyers is cited as commenting: >The journalist who truly deserves this award is my friend, Bill McKibben. >He enjoys the most conspicuous place in my own pantheon of journalistic >heroes for his pioneer work in writing about the environment. McKibben's ENOUGH is an unpleasant piece of smarmy know-nothing equivocation, as I argued on this list with multiple quotes some months ago; I make the case against McKibben's disagreeable book once again in my forthcoming FEROCIOUS MINDS. Incredibly, Moyers goes on to denounce (very properly) the fact that: McKibben is exactly such a theological ideologue, although he masks it a little more smoothly than some. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 18:08:05 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 10:08:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050107180805.5472.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> I'll note that Bill Moyers states that he and his fellow travellers explicitly believe that the world is a zero-sum game of limited resources. Extropians, who understand that exponentially advancing technology increases resource utilization efficiency faster than the rate of population growth, have more in common with the believers who think that 'the lord provides plenty of room for all the people', than with the chicken-littles who only believe in a malthusian, brutish future of diminishing resources and decreasing choices. As much as the more leftish here think that they are allied with the humanists, you need to wake up. The humanists are no longer pro-human, they are anti-human gaiaists. --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > > >This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well > worth > >passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us > who are > >not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... > > > >Donald R Emery PhD > > > > > >On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen > Award > > > >by Bill Moyers > > > >On Wednesday, December 1, 2004, the Center for Health and the Global > > >Environment at Harvard Medical School presented its fourth annual > Global > >Environment Citizen Award to Bill Moyers. In presenting the award, > Meryl > >Streep, a member of the Center board, said, "Through resourceful, > intrepid > >reportage and perceptive voices from the forward edge of the debate, > > >Moyers has examined an environment under siege with the aim of > engaging > >citizens." Here is the text of his response to Ms. Streep's > presentation > >of the award: > > > >I accept this award on behalf of all the people behind the camera > whom you > >never see. And for all those scientists, advocates, activists, and > just > >plain citizens whose stories we have covered in reporting on how > >environmental change affects our daily lives. We journalists are > simply > >beachcombers on the shores of other people's knowledge, other > people's > >experience, and other people's wisdom. We tell their stories. > > > >The journalist who truly deserves this award is my friend, Bill > McKibben. > >He enjoys the most conspicuous place in my own pantheon of > journalistic > >heroes for his pioneer work in writing about the environment. His > >bestseller The End of Nature carried on where Rachel Carson's Silent > > >Spring left off. > > > >Writing in Mother Jones recently, Bill described how the problems we > > >journalists routinely cover - conventional, manageable programs like > > >budget shortfalls and pollution - may be about to convert to > chaotic, > >unpredictable, unmanageable situations. The most unmanageable of > all, he > >writes, could be the accelerating deterioration of the environment, > >creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that > is > >causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into > the > >North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a > weakening > >gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of > > >changes that could radically alter civilizations. > > > >That's one challenge we journalists face - how to tell such a story > >without coming across as Cassandras, without turning off the people > we > >most want to understand what's happening, who must act on what they > read > >and hear. > > > >As difficult as it is, however, for journalists to fashion a > readable > >narrative for complex issues without depressing our readers and > viewers, > >there is an even harder challenge - to pierce the ideology that > governs > >official policy today. One of the biggest changes in politics in my > >lifetime is that the delusional is no longer marginal. It has come > in from > >the fringe, to sit in the seat of power in the oval office and in > >Congress. For the first time in our history, ideology and theology > hold a > >monopoly of power in Washington. Theology asserts propositions that > cannot > >be proven true; ideologues hold stoutly to a world view despite > being > >contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality. When ideology > and > >theology couple, their offspring are not always bad but they are > always > >blind. And there is the danger: voters and politicians alike, > oblivious to > >the facts. > > > >Remember James Watt, President Reagan's first Secretary of the > Interior? > >My favorite online environmental journalist, the ever engaging > Grist, > >reminded us recently of how James Watt told the U.S. Congress that > >protecting natural resources was unimportant in light of the > imminent > >return of Jesus Christ. In public testimony he said, 'after the last > tree > >is felled, Christ will come back.' > > > >Beltway elites snickered. The press corps didn't know what he was > talking > >about. But James Watt was serious. So were his compatriots out > across the > >country. They are the people who believe the Bible is literally true > - > >one-third of the American electorate, if a recent Gallup poll is > accurate. > >In this past election several million good and decent citizens went > to the > >polls believing in the rapture index. That's right - the rapture > index. > >Google it and you will find that the best-selling books in America > today > >are the twelve volumes of the left-behind series written by the > Christian > >fundamentalist and religious right warrior, Timothy LaHaye. These > true > >believers subscribe to a fantastical theology concocted in the 19th > >century by a couple of immigrant preachers who took disparate > passages > >from the Bible and wove them into a narrative that has captivated > the > >imagination of millions of Americans. > > > >Its outline is rather simple, if bizarre (the British writer George > >Monbiot recently did a brilliant dissection of it and I am indebted > to him > >for adding to my own understanding): once Israel has occupied the > rest of > >its 'biblical lands,' legions of the anti-Christ will attack it, > >triggering a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. As the Jews > who > >have not been converted are burned, the messiah will return for the > >rapture. True believers will be lifted out of their clothes and > >transported to heaven, where, seated next to the right hand of God, > they > >will watch their political and religious opponents suffer plagues of > > >boils, sores, locusts, and frogs during the several years of > tribulation > >that follow. > > > >I'm not making this up. Like Monbiot, I've read the literature. I've > > >reported on these people, following some of them from Texas to the > West > >Bank. They are sincere, serious, and polite as they tell you they > feel > >called to help bring the rapture on as fulfillment of biblical > prophecy. > >That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish > >settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. > It's > >why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in > the Book > >of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound in the great river > >Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man.' A war > with > >Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed > - an > >essential conflagration on the road to redemption. The last time I > Googled > >it, the rapture index stood at 144 - just one point below the > critical > >threshold when the whole thing will blow, the son of God will > return, the > >righteous will enter heaven, and sinners will be condemned to > eternal > >hellfire. > >(http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html) > >Arial> > > > >So what does this mean for public policy and the environment? Go to > Grist > >to read a remarkable work of reporting by the journalist, Glenn > Scherer - > >'the road to environmental apocalypse.' Read it and you will see how > > >millions of Christian fundamentalists may believe that environmental > > >destruction is not only to be disregarded but actually welcomed - > even > >hastened - as a sign of the coming apocalypse. > > > >As Grist makes clear, we're not talking about a handful of fringe > >lawmakers who hold or are beholden to these beliefs. Nearly half the > U.S. > >Congress before the recent election - 231 legislators in total - > more > >since the election - are backed by the religious right. Forty-five > >senators and 186 members of the 108th congress earned 80 to 100 > percent > >approval ratings from the three most influential Christian right > advocacy > >groups. They include Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, Assistant > Majority > >Leader Mitch McConnell, Conference Chair Rick Santorum of > Pennsylvania, > >Policy Chair Jon Kyl of Arizona, House Speaker Dennis Hastert, and > >Majority Whip Roy Blunt. The only Democrat to score 100 percent with > the > >Christian coalition was Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, who recently > > >quoted from the biblical book of Amos on the senate floor: "the days > will > >come, sayeth the Lord God, that i will send a famine in the land.' > He > >seemed to be relishing the thought. > > > >And why not? There's a constituency for it. A 2002 TIME/CNN poll > found > >that 59 percent of Americans believe that the prophecies found in > the Book > >of Revelation are going to come true. Nearly one-quarter think the > Bible > >predicted the 9/11 attacks. Drive across the country with your radio > tuned > >to the more than 1,600 Christian radio stations or in the motel turn > some > >of the 250 Christian TV stations and you can hear some of this > end-time > >gospel. And you will come to understand why people under the spell > of such > >potent prophecies cannot be expected, as Grist puts it, "to worry > about > >the environment. Why care about the earth when the droughts, floods, > > >famine and pestilence brought by ecological collapse are signs of > the > >apocalypse foretold in the Bible? Why care about global climate > change > >when you and yours will be rescued in the rapture? And why care > about > >converting from oil to solar when the same God who performed the > miracle > >of the loaves and fishes can whip up a few billion barrels of light > crude > >with a word?" > > > >Because these people believe that until Christ does return, the lord > will > >provide. One of their texts is a high school history book, America's > > >Providential History. You'll find there these words: "the secular or > > >socialist has a limited resource mentality and views the world as a > >pie?that needs to be cut up so everyone can get a piece." However, > "[t]he > >Christian knows that the potential in God is unlimited and that > there is > >no shortage of resources in God's earth??while many secularists view > the > >world as overpopulated, Christians know that God has made the earth > >sufficiently large with plenty of resources to accommodate all of > the > >people." No wonder Karl Rove goes around the White House whistling > that > >militant hymn, "Onward Christian Soldiers." He turned out millions > of the > >foot soldiers on November 2, including many who have made the > apocalypse a > >powerful driving force in modern American politics. > > > >I can see in the look on your faces just how hard it is for the > journalist > >to report a story like this with any credibility. So let me put it > on a > >personal level. I myself don't know how to be in this world without > >expecting a confident future and getting up every morning to do what > I can > >to bring it about. So I have always been an optimist. Now, however, > I > >think of my friend on Wall Street whom I once asked: "What do you > think of > >the market?" "I'm optimistic," he answered. "Then why do you look so > > >worried?" And he answered: "Because I am not sure my optimism is > justified." > > > >I'm not, either. Once upon a time I agreed with Eric Chivian and the > > >Center for Health and the Global Environment that people will > protect the > >natural environment when they realize its importance to their health > and > >to the health and lives of their children. Now I am not so sure. > It's not > >that I don't want to believe that - it's just that I read the news > and > >connect the dots: > > > >I read that the administrator of the U.S. Environmental Protection > Agency > >has declared the election a mandate for President Bush on the > environment. > >This for an administration that wants to rewrite the Clean Air Act, > the > >Clean Water Act and the Endangered Species Act protecting rare plant > and > >animal species and their habitats, as well as the National > Environmental > >Policy Act that requires the government to judge beforehand if > actions > >might damage natural resources. > > > >That wants to relax pollution limits for ozone; eliminate vehicle > tailpipe > >inspections; and ease pollution standards for cars, sports utility > >vehicles and diesel-powered big trucks and heavy equipment. > > > >That wants a new international audit law to allow corporations to > keep > >certain information about environmental problems secret from the > public. > > > >That wants to drop all its new-source review suits against polluting > > >coal-fired power plans and weaken consent decrees reached earlier > with > >coal companies. > > > >That wants to open the arctic wildlife refuge to drilling and > increase > >drilling in Padre Island National Seashore, the longest stretch of > >undeveloped barrier island in the world and the last great coastal > wild > >land in America. > > > >I read the news just this week and learned how the Environmental > >Protection Agency had planned to spend nine million dollars - $2 > million > >of it from the administration's friends at the American Chemistry > Council > >- to pay poor families to continue to use pesticides in their homes. > These > >pesticides have been linked to neurological damage in children, but > >instead of ordering an end to their use, the government and the > industry > >were going to offer the families $970 each, as well as a camcorder > and > >children's clothing, to serve as guinea pigs for the study. > > > >I read all this in the news. > > > >I read the news just last night and learned that the > administration's > >friends at the international policy network, which is supported by > >ExxonMobil and others of like mind, have issued a new report that > climate > >change is 'a myth, sea levels are not rising, scientists who believe > > >catastrophe is possible are 'an embarrassment. > > > >I not only read the news but the fine print of the recent > appropriations > >bill passed by Congress, with the obscure (and obscene) riders > attached to > >it: a clause removing all endangered species protections from > pesticides; > >language prohibiting judicial review for a forest in Oregon; a > waiver of > >environmental review for grazing permits on public lands; a rider > pressed > >by developers to weaken protection for crucial habitats in > California. > > > >I read all this and look up at the pictures on my desk, next to the > >computer - pictures of my grandchildren: Henry, age 12; Thomas, age > 10; > >Nancy, 7; Jassie, 3; Sara Jane, nine months. I see the future > looking back > >at me from those photographs and I say, 'Father, forgive us, for we > know > >not what we do.' And then I am stopped short by the thought: 'That's > not > >right. We do know what we are doing. We are stealing their future. > >Betraying their trust. Despoiling their world.' > > > >And I ask myself: Why? Is it because we don't care? Because we are > greedy? > >Because we have lost our capacity for outrage, our ability to > sustain > >indignation at injustice? > > > >What has happened to our moral imagination? > > > >On the heath Lear asks Gloucester: "How do you see the world?" And > >Gloucester, who is blind, answers: "I see it feelingly.'" > > > >I see it feelingly. > > > >The news is not good these days. I can tell you, though, that as a > >journalist, I know the news is never the end of the story. The news > can be > >the truth that sets us free - not only to feel but to fight for the > future > >we want. And the will to fight is the antidote to despair, the cure > for > >cynicism, and the answer to those faces looking back at me from > those > >photographs on my desk. What we need to match the science of human > health > >is what the ancient Israelites called 'hocma' - the science of the > >heart?..the capacity to see?.to feel?.and then to act?as if the > future > >depended on you. > > > >Believe me, it does. > > Natasha Vita-More > http://www.natasha.cc > [_______________________________________________ > President, Extropy Institute http://www.extropy.org > [_____________________________________________________ > Founder, Transhumanist Arts & Culture http://www.transhumanist.biz > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From fortean1 at mindspring.com Fri Jan 7 18:48:09 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 11:48:09 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change References: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> <41DEA333.5090600@neopax.com> Message-ID: <41DED969.14DAAB3A@mindspring.com> Dirk Bruere wrote: > > Matus wrote: > > >>> > >>> > >>That's partially the case, but another major factor is the the West in > >>general, and the US in particular, quite often has had a hand in > >> > >> > >putting > > > > > >>these genocidal maniacs where they are today, or at least supporting > >>them. Saddam is a case in point, but the US is currently cosying up to > >> > >> > >a > > > > > >>whole load of warlords in Afghanistan, a guy who boils political > >>prisoners alive (Uzbekistan IIRC) and of course our good pal the > >> > >> > >nuclear > > > > > >>armed Islamic military dictator Musharraf, to name but a few. > >> > >>-- > >> > >> > > > >Yet we had nothing to do with putting Kim Jong Il in power, or Idi Amin, > >or Mao Ze Dong. Whether or not the US played a role in propping up > >dictators, and whether it was just or not in that circumstance, is > >irrelevant to the question of why the media just doesn't give a shit > >about the millions of people dying in North Korea or the Sudan. A large > > > > > Primarily because it's not our problem. > NK is a well armed state that nobody wants to prop up with aid. > Sudan is just yet another instance of Africa imploding. It seems that > all assistence to Africa does is prolong the misery. > > Just about every nation is Africa is a 'fake' - a few lines on a map > drawn by the former colonial powers. Trying to maintain those fictions > has a lot to do with what's happening and why Africa doesn't work. > > On top of that may be a cynical realisation that it's pointless to keep > feeding people who are breeding beyond the limits of their ability to > feed themselves. > > A case in point is the reaction to the tsunami in the Indian Ocean. I > suspect a great deal of the Western response is because we now see those > people as being 'us'. They are no longer seen as decrepit hopeless Third > Worlders looking for handouts, but hard working folks just like us who > have had a tough break. Brit dead are now expected to exceed 400. They > were there as tourists having a holiday, just like as if they'd gone to > Spain or Portugal. > > >number of those journalists don't like the US anyway, so would see it as > >a good opportunity. I ask again, has any western journalist ever been > >tortured or kidnapped or murdered by North Korea? Anyone know? > > > > > > > Why should they be? All journalists that I know of have been explicitly > allowed in by the govt and under careful supervision. > It would be more instructive to look at regimes that actually kill > journalists (inc foreign ones). > > -- > Dirk Tony Blair A year of huge challenges Dec 29th 2004 >From The Economist print edition Two particular tasks face the world's rich nations, argues Britain's prime minister in this article: sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change BRITAIN takes over the presidency of the G8 this week. As each member-country holds this position in rotation, critics sometimes dismiss the presidency as little more than a chance to show-case the host nation at the annual summit. I believe they are wrong. I see it instead as an important opportunity to influence the international agenda of some of the world's most prosperous and powerful countries. This doesn't mean, of course, that any country can successfully push the G8 in a direction the other members do not want to go. But the presidency can give an important impetus to tackling problems that the rest recognise need addressing. This is certainly the outcome I want from Britain's presidency in 2005. I have made it clear that our efforts will focus on progress on Africa and climate change. Debt and development The environment Britain's Treasury has details of the International Finance Facility. The Department for International Development manages Britain's aid to poor countries. See also Downing Street, the New Partnership for Africa's Development, the Kyoto Protocol, the World Bank, the United Nations Economic Commission for Africa and the African Union. Why? Firstly because, along with the threat from international terrorism and the spread of weapons of mass destruction, I believe they are the most serious problems facing the world today. Second, because they are both problems beyond the power of any single country, no matter how well-intentioned or powerful, to tackle on its own. A solution requires co-ordinated international action and, above all, leadership, which the G8 is uniquely placed to give. Africa is a continent of breathtaking beauty and diversity with an extraordinary, energetic and resilient people. As I have seen from my own visits, given a chance, no matter how small, to better themselves, they seize it. But Africa is also a place plagued with problems?debt, disease, conflict, corruption and weak governance?so embedded and widespread that no continent, no matter how prosperous, could tackle them on its own. And Africa is not prosperous. It's the world's poorest continent. Half the population of sub-Saharan Africa lives in absolute poverty. And, uniquely, Africa is getting poorer. Average income per head is lower now than it was 30 years ago. It is also the continent worst hit by the HIV/AIDS epidemic. Twenty million Africans have already died from the disease, and it is going to get much worse. In some countries, four out of ten people are infected. Life expectancy is falling, and will soon be down to just 30 years. This catastrophe has single-handedly wiped out half a century of development gains. In Sudan, and elsewhere, we have seen the tragic effects of war. At least 2m people have died in Sudan's north-south conflict over the past 21 years, and millions more have been affected. A comprehensive peace agreement could turn Sudan around; but Darfur remains a catastrophe, and we cannot turn our attention away from it. In Zimbabwe we see the great damage that can be done to a country, its economy, its people and their potential by the destruction of democracy and the failure of governance. We have worked with the international community to identify benchmarks to help Zimbabwe restore the rights and prosperity of its people. Why we should care Should this matter to the rest of the world? For democratic governments, it should, because it matters to our citizens. They give millions of dollars to help Africa and its people. They campaign for their governments to do more. They passionately believe, as I do, that it can't be morally right, in a world growing more prosperous and healthier by the year, that one in six African children still die before their fifth birthday. The worldwide campaign to make poverty history rightly challenges us to act. But the state of Africa is also a case, unusual in politics, where heart and head are pushing us in the same direction. We must now all accept the utter futility of trying to shut our borders to problems abroad. Famine in Africa will affect our countries because it will be a trigger for mass migration. Conflict, too, drives millions to flee their homes. Both create the conditions for terrorism and fanaticism to take root and spread directly to Europe, to North America and to Asia. We spend billions on humanitarian aid to help pick up the pieces. A prosperous Africa, where its people have the chance to fulfil their talents, is in all our interests. The sheer scale of Africa's problems can induce an understandable sense of hopelessness that progress can be made. It helps explain the shocking fact that aid to Africa, notwithstanding Britain's increased contribution, has fallen since 1995. But there are reasons for optimism. We have seen the emergence of a new generation of democratically elected African leaders, determined that their governments will work cleanly and effectively to improve life for their citizens. Their New Partnership for Africa's Development sets out a challenging agenda. According to the World Bank, governance has been improving faster in Africa than in many other areas of the developing world. Conflict in Africa, although still devastating where it occurs, is also decreasing. Mozambique, a country brought to its knees by vicious fighting, has cut its levels of poverty by almost a third since peace. The civil war in Sierra Leone, thanks to the intervention of British forces, is over and the country is slowly recovering. The African Union is playing an increasing role in settling conflicts. We know that the best way to reduce poverty is through economic growth. And we know that economic growth can be increased by aid. Fifteen countries in Africa had average growth rates above 4% throughout the 1990s. Half of Africa had growth of over 5.9% in 2001. Many of the countries which have benefited from increased aid, such as Uganda and Mozambique, have seen poverty fall over an extended period. Targeted British assistance, for example, has already enabled Uganda to introduce universal primary education and free basic health care. We can also increase the effectiveness of our aid. Tied aid, directed by the priorities of the donor rather than the recipient and bypassing government systems, actually undermines effectiveness and internal accountability. Getting others involved I am proud that Britain's involvement is helping this progress. We are doubling our bilateral aid to Africa; it will reach ?1 billion ($1.9 billion) in 2005, and will rise further. We have written off 100% of the debts of the poorest countries. We have dramatically increased help to tackle the big killers such as AIDS and malaria. But to help Africa continue this progress we need a concerted, co-ordinated global effort. Ad hoc, short-term measures will not do. A comprehensive programme of action is needed with sustained commitment to implementation by Africa and by the international community. Truly, a new partnership is required. We need concerted action to improve opportunities and growth, to reduce debt, to tackle HIV, malaria and TB, to fight corruption and to promote peace and security. We also need to tackle trade barriers which push up prices for our consumers, prevent African countries exporting their products and see Europe spending more on subsidising its own farmers than on aid to Africa. This is an investment for our, and Africa's, future: more than half of Africa is under 15. It is already clear what sort of measures are needed, and I believe the recommendations of the Commission for Africa, which will report in the spring, will take us further. Action requires more resources, and now. There will be calls to double aid to Africa. I believe all the G8 members can do more: extending debt relief, providing more resources to tackle HIV, giving more girls the chance of education, reducing rates of infant mortality, building the infrastructure needed for private-sector growth. Investment is needed now, and we must look at ways to bridge the gap. Gordon Brown has set out one way we can do so through the International Finance Facility, which would raise extra aid money by leveraging capital markets and issuing bonds. I hope the G8 will agree not only to a plan of action but also to its implementation, a process of monitoring and review. We all need to be accountable for carrying out the commitments we have made. The changing climate Africa, of course, is also seen by experts as particularly vulnerable to climate change. The size of its land-mass means that, in the middle of the continent, overall rises in temperature will be up to double the global rise, with increased risk of extreme droughts, floods and outbreaks of disease. It is estimated that African GDP could decline by up to 10% because of climate change. But no country will escape its impact. And there can be no doubt that the world is getting warmer. Temperatures have already risen by 0.7?C over the past century, and the ten hottest years on record have all occurred since 1991. It's the fastest rise in temperatures in the northern hemisphere for a thousand years. This temperature rise has meant a rise in sea level that, if it continues as predicted, will mean hundreds of millions of people increasingly at risk from flooding. And climate change means more than warmer weather: other extreme, increasingly unpredictable, weather events such as rainstorms and droughts will also have a heavy human and economic cost. It is true, of course, that some scientists still contest the reasons for these changes. But it would be false to suggest that scientific opinion is equally split. It is not. The overwhelming view of experts is that climate change, to a greater or lesser extent, is man-made and, without action, will get worse. And as the evidence gets stronger by the day, the sceptics dwindle in number. From Arnold Schwarzenegger's California to China's Ningxia province, the world is taking climate change seriously. But just as technological progress and human activity have helped cause this problem, it is also within our power to lessen its impact and adapt to change. Science has alerted us to the dangers our planet faces and will help us meet these challenges. But we need to act now. Delay will only increase the seriousness of the problems we need to reverse, and the economic disruption required to move to more renewable forms of energy and sustainable manufacturing in the future. And the G8, again, needs to lead: not just because we currently account for 47% of global CO2 emissions, but also because it is our scientists, our industries and our economies that must help solve this problem. Russian ratification of the Kyoto protocol means that we now have a new global treaty that is about to come into force. This is good news. But the level of change and ambition required will be far more than the Kyoto protocol is likely to provide. And with the United States, the world's largest emitter of greenhouse gases, refusing to sign up to the protocol, this makes the measures we could secure through the G8 even more vital. Although the United States will not ratify Kyoto, other approaches, such as the McCain-Lieberman bill now going through Congress, could stand a better chance of support. Some American states and businesses are also already taking a lead on initiatives to reduce greenhouse emissions. New York has a state emissions-reductions target of 5% below 1990 by 2010 and 10% by 2020. California has a string of policies in train, including regulating carbon emissions from vehicles and increasing the amount of energy generated from renewable sources to 20% of electricity sold into the state by 2010. The United States is also leading investment and research in the new low-carbon economy. It is not a choice, as some suppose, between economic prosperity and tackling climate change. It is technological advances and economic development that will provide the realistic solution. It is the firms and countries that lead the way in adapting to this challenge that will have the competitive advantage in the future. In Britain our economy grew by 36% between 1990 and 2002 while greenhouse gas emissions fell by 15%. British Petroleum has set and achieved targets, such as reducing its greenhouse-gas emissions by 10% in just three years. To achieve this, the company introduced an emissions-trading scheme: it cost $20m to implement, yet saved it $650m over the three-year period. Those companies that adapt early to the demands of a future low-carbon economy know they gain competitive advantage. So this is not just the right thing to do for the sake of the planet. It is the right thing to do commercially. Why we should act Advocates for action on climate change must confront three economic arguments. First, if the case is so clear, why not just leave it to business? To that point I would say it is precisely in this kind of long-term challenge, where there are demonstrable and potentially irreversible social effects, with returns accruing over periods beyond commercial discounting, that government must play a clear role. Second, critics charge that government is picking new, untried technologies that may fail. Here I would say the approach of clever governments is not to pick technologies, but to establish conditions where innovation is supported and encouraged into the market-place. Finally, some argue that there are more immediate problems. In some senses, they are right: over the next five years, for example, water pollution will cause more harm worldwide. It is wrong, however, to see these problems as mutually exclusive. Without a stable climate, addressing other environmental threats will be impossible, ensuring a future of more degraded water and land. Every year lost on tackling climate change will take us further along the path where the costs of action multiply. And I have never believed that simple discounting can be an adequate tool for potentially catastrophic outcomes 50 or more years ahead. We are at a stage where the role of government and global policy must be to encourage the development and commercial viability of the new technologies that have the potential to mitigate the effects of climate change. There is no single ?silver bullet? that will solve the problem, despite what some enthusiasts for nuclear or hydrogen power may tell you. But a whole range of technologies are either available now, or will become available, which, taken together, can make a huge difference. I believe the G8 can take a global lead both in making the world aware of the scale of the problem and in proposing ways to tackle them. Through the G8, we have the opportunity to agree on what the most up-to-date investigations of climate change are telling us about the threat we face. We could also endeavour to identify and support the technological measures necessary to meet the threat, which would complement rather than undercut the Kyoto protocol. And the G8 must also engage actively with other countries with growing energy needs?such as China, India, Brazil and South Africa?to ensure that they meet their needs sustainably and adapt to the adverse effects of climate change, which seem inevitable. Given the different positions of the G8 nations on this issue, such agreement will be a major advance. But I believe it is achievable and necessary. I have no doubt that some may argue that aiming so high both on climate change and Africa is a hostage to fortune. I recall that fictional Whitehall mandarin, Sir Humphrey Appleby of ?Yes, Prime Minister?, describing such ambitions as ?courageous? when he hoped to put Jim Hacker off a particular course of action. But I remain hopeful that we can succeed in these aims. It is vital for the world that we do. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 19:11:42 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 19:11:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change In-Reply-To: <41DED969.14DAAB3A@mindspring.com> References: <001301c4f44c$a3b868c0$6401a8c0@hplaptop> <41DEA333.5090600@neopax.com> <41DED969.14DAAB3A@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <41DEDEEE.6080505@neopax.com> Terry W. Colvin wrote: >>Just about every nation is Africa is a 'fake' - a few lines on a map >>drawn by the former colonial powers. Trying to maintain those fictions >>has a lot to do with what's happening and why Africa doesn't work. >> >>On top of that may be a cynical realisation that it's pointless to keep >>feeding people who are breeding beyond the limits of their ability to >>feed themselves. >> >>A case in point is the reaction to the tsunami in the Indian Ocean. I >>suspect a great deal of the Western response is because we now see those >>people as being 'us'. They are no longer seen as decrepit hopeless Third >>Worlders looking for handouts, but hard working folks just like us who >>have had a tough break. Brit dead are now expected to exceed 400. They >>were there as tourists having a holiday, just like as if they'd gone to >>Spain or Portugal. >> >> >Tony Blair > >A year of huge challenges > >Dec 29th 2004 >>From The Economist print edition > > >Two particular tasks face the world's rich nations, argues Britain's prime >minister in this article: sorting out Africa, and dealing with climate change >... > > More of Blair's egomaniacal rant. If he can't make his mark on history with a successful war he's now going to be Mother Theresa Mk2 I see no mention was made that one of the major things wrong with Africa is the nation state. Africa worked fine for thousands of years until we (the West primarily) imposed upon it a political model that just doesn't work. It still doesn't work. Africa needs the maps scrapping for a start. And second, we should stop giving aid to African govts - they are corrupt, incompetent and just piss it away. The aid should be channeled through NGOs such as Oxfam, Action Aid etc and delivered stright to the people who need it. Another things we should do is scrap all their debt and then stop lending money to African nations. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From natasha at natasha.cc Fri Jan 7 19:23:19 2005 From: natasha at natasha.cc (Natasha Vita-More) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 13:23:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <20050107180805.5472.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> <20050107180805.5472.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107131702.021ebec0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> At 12:08 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: >I'll note that Bill Moyers states that he and his fellow travellers >explicitly believe that the world is a zero-sum game of limited >resources. ... Look at the bigger picture and see that most solutions are discovered through transdisciplinary thinking, which would most likely include transpolitical thinking. By the way, you missed the most interesting aspect of this article. Natasha From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 19:55:04 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 11:55:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107195504.15584.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is self-evident in America that citizens have the right to defend themselves, second amendment rights must be protected. However the catch (no pun intended) is: it's not as simple as merely pulling a pistol out of a pocket and firing at a bad guy; if it were I'd obtain a conceal-carry permit myself-- I'm certainly not going to walk around like James Arness with an unconcealed gun. Mike Lorrey wrote: An effeminate distain for putting a rabid dog down permanently has always been, and always will be, a behavior which is not conducive to one's survival. Of course, if you insist on continuing to live in a jurisdiction which does not recognise your right to security of self, you are consciously accepting victimhood and slavish serfdom. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 20:16:46 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:16:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin><6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> Message-ID: <00b001c4f4f5$d0fe7b40$9ceafb44@kevin> Good. I am 5'3 and 135 lbs. I used to be a "collections specialist" at Rent-A-Center which means my job was to go into the ghetto and knock on someone's door and demand back my merchandise or money. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Bruere" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > Damien Broderick wrote: > > > At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > > > > > >> If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >> just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 > >> feet > >> away > > > > > > These are serious questions: > > > > Does this happen to you often? > > > > Has it ever happened? > > > > Do you expect it to happen? > > > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's > > likely? > > > > (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown > > weapons to deter them.) > > > > > I'm 6' tall, weight around 200lb and have trained in martial arts for > around 25yrs. > I've never had a problem on the streets with anyone, even in the > roughest parts of London. > In fact, people have crossed the road to avoid me... > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 21:57:20 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 13:57:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107195504.15584.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107215721.99018.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > It is self-evident in America that citizens have the right to defend > themselves, second amendment rights must be protected. However the > catch (no pun intended) is: it's not as simple as merely pulling a > pistol out of a pocket and firing at a bad guy; if it were I'd obtain > a conceal-carry permit myself-- I'm certainly not going to walk > around like James Arness with an unconcealed gun. Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being addressed. Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not here, though, and not in a growing number of states. Taking a life in never simple, of course, even one that deserved what they got. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 22:00:38 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:00:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107131702.021ebec0@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050107220038.48741.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Natasha Vita-More wrote: > At 12:08 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: > >I'll note that Bill Moyers states that he and his fellow travellers > >explicitly believe that the world is a zero-sum game of limited > >resources. ... > > Look at the bigger picture and see that most solutions are discovered > through transdisciplinary thinking, which would most likely include > transpolitical thinking. > > By the way, you missed the most interesting aspect of this article. What is that? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 7 22:22:39 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:22:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107215721.99018.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050107222239.44945.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have no problem with others wanting to open-carry, but wouldn't do so myself, just as some like to be on nude beaches yet others feel uncomfortable. Main thing is, I don't care what statisticians say, it would be the real-time situation of having a bad guy or two stick a weapon in the face. Is there time to quick-draw?: depends on one's reflexes & training. I'd just give them my wallet. And the legal mess you get into when you defend yourself is daunting. Even police are leery of using their weapons, they have to fill out reports, have photos taken, go to court... Mike Lorrey wrote: Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being addressed. Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not here, though, and not in a growing number of states. Taking a life in never simple, of course, even one that deserved what they got. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? Get yours free! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 22:34:50 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:34:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <20050107215721.99018.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009c01c4f509$19dfbaa0$9ceafb44@kevin> Indiana Law states that lethal force may be used if a person threatens you with death or serious bodily harm AND has the means AND ability to do so. They also allow lethal force in the event that someone is actively attempting arson. Note that the lethal force law says nothing of guns. Instead it addresses the use of a force which could result in someone's death. Anyone who knows anything about guns knows that guns aren't used to "kill" in a defensive situation, only to stop. If the bad guy happens to die, that's their problem and they should have thought of that before they attacked someone. The way it is written, a 6 ft tall 280 lb guy attacking an old woman of 5' and 110 lbs can be dispatched with a handgun even if he is unarmed. Likewise, a 6ft tall 280 lb guy defending himself from an 18 yr old 5 ft tall scrawny kid with a small knife may run into some problems if he chooses to shoot. Sounds almost too much like common sense if you ask me. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 3:57 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] weaponry > > --- Ned Late wrote: > > > It is self-evident in America that citizens have the right to defend > > themselves, second amendment rights must be protected. However the > > catch (no pun intended) is: it's not as simple as merely pulling a > > pistol out of a pocket and firing at a bad guy; if it were I'd obtain > > a conceal-carry permit myself-- I'm certainly not going to walk > > around like James Arness with an unconcealed gun. > > Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an > issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay > attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising > their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being > addressed. > > Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not > here, though, and not in a growing number of states. > > Taking a life in never simple, of course, even one that deserved what > they got. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 7 23:45:05 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:45:05 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <20050107222239.44945.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01c4f512$ea375dd0$9ceafb44@kevin> Actually, police have a harder time than do civilians. They are trained NOT to shoot. They are trained to apprehend. That is not a requirement of a civilian in a potentially deadly situation. I used to have all the stats, but not any more. I do remember that most civilian defensive shootings are open and shut really quick. As for the wallet, protecting it from an attacker IS illegal. The use of lethal force is for protecting yourself. If you think throwing your wallet will help, then do it by all means, but usually you don;t get to ask them what they want. They hit you THEN take the wallet. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ned Late To: ExI chat list Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:22 PM Subject: RE: [extropy-chat] weaponry I have no problem with others wanting to open-carry, but wouldn't do so myself, just as some like to be on nude beaches yet others feel uncomfortable. Main thing is, I don't care what statisticians say, it would be the real-time situation of having a bad guy or two stick a weapon in the face. Is there time to quick-draw?: depends on one's reflexes & training. I'd just give them my wallet. And the legal mess you get into when you defend yourself is daunting. Even police are leery of using their weapons, they have to fill out reports, have photos taken, go to court... Mike Lorrey wrote: Actually, open carry is your right here in NH. We are dealing with an issue these days of cops moving from other states who don't pay attention to the laws here and harass law abiding citizens exercising their rights in the southern townships of the state, but that is being addressed. Many states place hurdles on people defending themselves, for sure. Not here, though, and not in a growing number of states. Taking a life in never simpl! e, of course, even one that deserved what they got. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 23:40:01 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:40:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <948b11e0501071540151365b8@mail.gmail.com> In my experience and opinion the media of late is far less critical of the US administration than they should be. It is part of the job of a free press to be criticize where criticism seems to be due. BTW, there was an article today in CNN about part of the administration buying favorable media coverage. Now that is a true perversion of a free press. http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/07/bush.journalist.ap/index.html - samantha On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 09:14:33 -0500, Brian Lee wrote: > The economist is pretty good example of mainstream US media and they > frequently publish articles critical of the US govt (as does Harpers, > Atlantic, RollingStone, New York Times, New Yorker, Vanity Fair, San > Francisco Chronicle, etc etc). > > I think if you only pick up a paper in Tulsa or LA and consider that > representative of all US press you will form an incorrect opinion of how the > US press/media operates. > > BAL > > >From: Amara Graps > >To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) > >Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 12:16:54 +0100 > > > >Spike: > >>It isn't hard to believe that such reports, for in the U.S. much of > >>our mainstream media appears to be populated with those who oppose the > >>current government, and have shown themselves willing and eager to > >>spew slanted, exaggerated or false propaganda in an effort to topple > >>that regime. Two glaring examples, Rathergate and > >>missing-explosives-gate. > > > >Seems a bit odd to me, if true. I remember that I was distressed to > >find that from late-2001 and through the next couple of years, most > >mainstream media I encountered (I visited the US -- in California -- > >a couple of times a year then) did not criticize the US government > >at all except on a rare few radio talk shows, and in the Letters to the > >Editor sections of newspapers, and certainly, never on television. > > > >The rest of the world's media is diverse and they were reporting many > >things about the middle east if the US folks cared to take a look. If > >you have a subscription to The Economist, you might enjoy this article > >about what lengths many journalists, especially those working in poorer > >countries, go through in order to report news. The press freedom > >index is UP in most places in the world. > > > >http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=S%27%29%28%3C%25PQ%27%2B%20%40%20R%0A > > > >-- > > > >******************************************************************** > >Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com > >Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt > >Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ > >******************************************************************** > >"It's not the pace of life I mind. It's the sudden stop at the end." > >--Calvin > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 23:42:45 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:42:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> I don't see how calling it "gnosticism" can be of anything but detriment to us. Gnosticism is officially heresy in Christian worldviews. - samantha On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:44:24 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > With the Transhumanist movement, one sees the Gnostic strain > reasserting itself in the quest to transcend the degenerate body. The > body is held in disdain. Advocates for enhancement technology exhibit > disdain for the current status of the physical body. There is an > abhorrence of the limitations that nature has placed upon the species. > The insufficiencies of height, strength, vision, hearing, longevity > and cognition are roadblocks to happiness and perpetual fulfillment. > Nature has gotten the human race this far, but the inherent limits of > existence are hurdles to be leapt. > Like the earlier Gnostics, knowledge and insight are the keys to > overcome the deficiencies of the physical. With the accumulation of > research in genetic engineering, nanotechnology, artificial > intelligence, and neural network interfacing, man will be able to > overwhelm the frailty and deficiency inherent in the human condition > and transform that which was weak into strength. The ability to > repair, replace or enhance the various biological systems in the body > allows one to overcome the limits of finitude. A logical outcome of > this is the prospect of a multitiered view of humanity. If strong > advocates of transhumanism have their wish, a new species of Techno > sapien will emerge. > http://www.thecbc.org/redesigned/research_display.php?id=189 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 23:45:38 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 15:45:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> Message-ID: <948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as safe. -s On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 15:00:55 +0000, Dirk Bruere wrote: > Damien Broderick wrote: > > > At 03:43 PM 1/6/2005 -0600, Kevin Freels wrote: > > > > > >> If a weapon other than a bullet is even invented that will > >> just as reliably stop a 280 lb attacker that is running at me from 20 > >> feet > >> away > > > > > > These are serious questions: > > > > Does this happen to you often? > > > > Has it ever happened? > > > > Do you expect it to happen? > > > > Can you think of any way to avoid getting into situations where it's > > likely? > > > > (I know people who *have* been menaced by criminals and have shown > > weapons to deter them.) > > > > > I'm 6' tall, weight around 200lb and have trained in martial arts for > around 25yrs. > I've never had a problem on the streets with anyone, even in the > roughest parts of London. > In fact, people have crossed the road to avoid me... > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 23:48:49 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:48:49 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >I don't see how calling it "gnosticism" can be of anything but >detriment to us. Gnosticism is officially heresy in Christian >worldviews. > > > I don't think that any of us are going to change the name of our beliefs, although TechnoGnosticism is rather cool:-) Still, there are stiking parallels. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Fri Jan 7 23:52:00 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:52:00 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com> <948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DF20A0.8020308@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as safe. > > > No, they just think they do. The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, even once in their lives. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From sjatkins at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 00:02:06 2005 From: sjatkins at gmail.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:02:06 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all possible. That said, non-lethal weapons also leave one at a disadvantage when up against attackers who are using lethal weapons. If they get a shot end then you are dead. If you get a shot in then they live to perhaps attack another day. It is thus to their advantage to keep attacking until they win as long as they have the desire to do so. - s On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 09:25:07 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- spike wrote:> > > That gives me an idea. If one is in any sitch where one might need a > > weapon, how about one of those nifty laser pointers? Laser to the > > eye, boot to the balls, relocate to safety. Easier to carry than a > > pistol, might still stop an attacker. Actually now that I think > > about it, its only a matter of time before the bad guys start using > > them as a mugging aid. > > Trying to re-invent the gun has always been a fruitless exercise. > Essentially, ANY thing which leaves an attacker concious enough to get > pissed off is a failure at replacing a firearm. Furthermore, you might > stun a mugger THIS time with your laser pointy thingee, or taser, or > whatever, but NEXT TIME, i.e. the next time you are outside your > pod-hole, they will be forewarned and prepared to counter your defense. > Very likely with a firearm. > > An effeminate distain for putting a rabid dog down permanently has > always been, and always will be, a behavior which is not conducive to > one's survival. Of course, if you insist on continuing to live in a > jurisdiction which does not recognise your right to security of self, > you are consciously accepting victimhood and slavish serfdom. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 00:20:44 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:20:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <009c01c4f509$19dfbaa0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050108002045.85612.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, it sounds too much like common sense, it sounds too pat. A scrawny kid with a razor sharp knife is dangerous enough. See, it doesn't matter to me what the 'usual' situation is, if someone sticks a weapon very close to my face then there exists only that situation at that exact time, nothing predictable about it IMO. It depends on how tired one is, how alert one is, what mood one is in, what reflexes one possesses. When a guy is attacked he doesn't think what the usual way of dealing with such a situation, he has got to wing it. Now for certain civilians who are ex-servicemen (or maybe militia-types), they may be trained so well that they almost automatically do what has to be done. Don't know. Do know I've been mugged three or four times in NYC when working as a messenger 25 years ago. Once a group of punks stuck long knives very close to my nose so I gave them my wallet- but since they were obvious punks, I asked for my driver's license before they left, and one guy apologetically took the license out of the wallet and dropped it on the ground. Another time a scrawny punk followed me into an elevator and said he had a knife in his pocket. I looked at his pocket and judged there was nothing there. He looked so unsure I almost laughed, but since there was no one besides we two in the elevator, it seemed best at that moment to hand over every sent I had without his even asking. Just to play it extra safe. He thanked me profusely. If we had been outdoors or even in the lobby I would have ignored him. I was never afraid when being mugged, or confused, but each time was an unexpected situation where there was not quite enough time to think in depth. Each mugging was unique, nothing usual to plan for. Kevin Freels wrote: Indiana Law states that lethal force may be used if a person threatens you with death or serious bodily harm AND has the means AND ability to do so. They also allow lethal force in the event that someone is actively attempting arson. Note that the lethal force law says nothing of guns. Likewise, a 6ft tall 280 lb guy defending himself from an 18 yr old 5 ft tall scrawny kid with a small knife may run into some problems if he chooses to shoot. Sounds almost too much like common sense if you ask me. :-) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From max at maxmore.com Sat Jan 8 00:27:43 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 18:27:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107181338.027634f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Comparing transhumanism to gnosticism is nothing new. I've seen and heard it many times, most notably in Erik Davis' book, "Techgnosis". The attempt to force transhumanism (in all its flavors) into the shape of gnosticism can only be damaging. This essay follows the usual line of saying that we "despise" the physical body. I'm sure *some* of us do, but for most of us, that attitude does not follow from a desire to improve on the amazing start made by nature. (When you edit your first draft of a piece of writing or coding, does that imply that you *despise* your initial attempt?) The body is not and cannot be "degenerate", since it hasn't degenerated from a imaginary state of initial perfection. Transhumanism really has none of the fundamentalism dualism of gnosticism. There is no equivalent of "the Fall." Nor do we claim access to a special way of knowing (we just read and think more than most people!). The author's suggestion that we enlightened transhumans-to-be (the "chosen few") will lead the rest into the future or leave them "to wallow", is an absurdly prejudicial characterization. The same might be said of *anyone* who tries to encourage others to adopt better ways of doing things, as they see it. Onward! Max _______________________________________________________ Max More, Ph.D. max at maxmore.com or max at extropy.org http://www.maxmore.com Strategic Philosopher Chairman, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org _______________________________________________________ From dirk at neopax.com Sat Jan 8 00:41:27 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 00:41:27 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41DF2C37.9070404@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long >lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to >learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal >weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations >if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a >fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all >possible. > > > "It may be possible for each to think too much of his own potential glory hereafter; it is hardly possible for him to think too often or too deeply about that of his neighbor. .. It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never met a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it s with immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry , snub, and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors." C S Lewis -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From nedlt at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 00:42:44 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:42:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] one serious assault In-Reply-To: <20050108002045.85612.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050108004245.33459.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In 1987 I got into a passenger seat in an auto, with two "ladies" in Sacramento Ca. The one in the rear seat choked off my breath with a bar, I couldn't breathe at all; lucky not to pass out. At first I hesitated to hand over the $40.00 in my boot, then the swell dame in the rear seat pulled the bar even tighter. I took off my boot and forked over the money. Perhaps because I hesitated the lady didn't relent of her suffocating activity, or maybe they thought I had more $. Anyway they got onto the freeway and I decided to kick the driver, very hard... she yelled, then a minute or two later she hit the guardrail and stopped the car (putting, say, a $40.00 dent in the vehicle). Immediately the choker let go of the bar. I turned around to punch the suffocator in the face, but just before the punch landed she grabbed my spectacles. I hopped out on one boot into the honking, blurry traffic. This anecdote is to remind you that all assaults and muggings are unique and unexpected. I was unwise to get into an auto with strangers, but after the attack started, little could be planned for. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirk at neopax.com Sat Jan 8 00:46:41 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 00:46:41 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanism: 2000 Years in the Making In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.2.20050107181338.027634f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <470a3c52050107084426a28f9d@mail.gmail.com> <948b11e05010715423f234fbe@mail.gmail.com> <41DF1FE1.5050804@neopax.com> <6.2.0.14.2.20050107181338.027634f8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <41DF2D71.6020609@neopax.com> Max More wrote: > Comparing transhumanism to gnosticism is nothing new. I've seen and > heard it many times, most notably in Erik Davis' book, "Techgnosis". > > The attempt to force transhumanism (in all its flavors) into the shape > of gnosticism can only be damaging. This essay follows the usual line > of saying that we "despise" the physical body. I'm sure *some* of us > do, but for most of us, that attitude does not follow from a desire to > improve on the amazing start made by nature. (When you edit your first > draft of a piece of writing or coding, does that imply that you > *despise* your initial attempt?) The body is not and cannot be > "degenerate", since it hasn't degenerated from a imaginary state of > initial perfection. > I'll play Devils Advocate here... In most, if not all people I would suggest the body *is* degenerate in that each of us is not the best that a Human can be simply because of genetic imperfections. > Transhumanism really has none of the fundamentalism dualism of > gnosticism. There is no equivalent of "the Fall." Nor do we claim > access to a special way of knowing (we just read and think more than > most people!). > The dualism is hardware/software. As for the Fall, consider the Simulation Argument and possible implications. Or alternatively, we are awaiting the moment of the Fall, or Transcendence, in the Singularity (although that's more akin to Armageddon theologically). > The author's suggestion that we enlightened transhumans-to-be (the > "chosen few") will lead the rest into the future or leave them "to > wallow", is an absurdly prejudicial characterization. The same might > be said of *anyone* who tries to encourage others to adopt better ways > of doing things, as they see it. > Such as Gnostics? -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 8 01:52:57 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:52:57 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <1105039767.26107@whirlwind.he.net> <00cf01c4f438$cba1eff0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050106154431.019816c0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <41DEA427.4090700@neopax.com><948b11e050107154553562384@mail.gmail.com> <41DF20A0.8020308@neopax.com> Message-ID: <002501c4f524$c72b54b0$9ceafb44@kevin> > > > No, they just think they do. > The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far > outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. > The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, > even once in their lives. > The vast majority of Americans do not die in car accidents, but that is no reason to not wear a seat belt. :-) From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jan 8 02:38:29 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 18:38:29 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Natasha Vita-More Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award by Bill Moyers ... creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that is causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into the North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of changes that could radically alter civilizations... This oddball comment again. I've heard it several times, and I have yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon would give a damn if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic. Do they think an aircraft carrier won't float in a slightly less saline sea? Are they concerned a northwest passage opening up will cause some kind of conflict with northern Europe? Do they really take seriously the Hollywood notion that global warming will plunge us into a new ice age? What is that about really? Seems the pentagon types would be the last to notice or care about global warming. spike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Sat Jan 8 05:11:54 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 21:11:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050108051154.85034.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > This oddball comment again. I've heard it several > times, and I have > yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon > would give a damn > if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic. The Pentagon's mission is to defend the US. Granted, it's usually supposed to focus on military threats, but an environmental catastrophe big enough to disrupt civilization is everybody's problem. Can't fight a war if the factories to make your bullets ain't working no more. Besides, these days, the environment itself can be a military target, especially for the enemies the Pentagon fancies seeing (terrorists who somehow become as aware of and able to use science and technology as we do - despite the fact that that seems to be somewhat contrary to most actual terrorists' natures). From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 8 06:59:58 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:59:58 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> References: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com> Message-ID: Thanks for posting this. It is indeed one of the most chilling things I have read and I am no stranger to such of late. While I disagree with Bill Moyers on some particular points, he draws attention to very real dangers from the religious ideologues now ascendent in the US. While I hold a low opinion indeed of what is truly running this bloated government (and it goes FAR deeper than this administration), I have possibly misjudged the size and impact of the Ready for Rapture crowd. I sincerely hope his views of its extent are overblown. If not then I am very much afraid we are in for hell on earth. Not from the second coming but from these loons ready to pass out the kool-aid. I hope that the parts where Moyers' views disagree with mine or that of others here do not blind us to the dangers we face that he warns about. It is a common human characteristic to disbelieve bad news if chinks in a few points or in the bearer's character can be found. I think we give in to that tendency at our peril. - samantha From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 8 07:40:50 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 08:40:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award Message-ID: <20050108073703.M6282@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Thanks Natasha for forwarding that. I knew the political landscape was bad, but that article put it in another realm entirely. Chilling. I'm worried too. Amara From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 8 08:11:08 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 00:11:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: Spike, You might want to check out what could happen to the haline cycle if significant fresh water was dumped into the North Atlantic. While reasonable people may disagree on the extend of problems associated with global warming and the extent of such warming itself, it is not at all reasonable to simply dismiss the entire topic. Global warming can indeed trigger a new ice age although not as dramatically as in a recent rather silly movie that shall remain nameless. And why is it that bright people on this list have mostly only harped on points they disagree with or that play to their favored positions while missing the urgency of the inmates having considerable influence in the earth's only remaining superpower? I would think there are more important matters at hand. Or is this sort of response just diversion in the face of that which one feels powerless to change? - samantha On Jan 7, 2005, at 6:38 PM, spike wrote: > Natasha Vita-More > > Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment > CitizenAward > > ? > > On Receiving Harvard Medical School's Global Environment Citizen Award > > by Bill Moyers > > > ... creating perils with huge momentum like the greenhouse effect that > is causing the melt of the arctic to release so much freshwater into > the North Atlantic that even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a > weakening gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the > kind of changes that could radically alter civilizations... > > ? > > ? > > This oddball comment again.? I?ve heard it several times, and I have > > yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon would give a damn > > if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic.? Do they think an > aircraft > > carrier won?t float in a slightly less saline sea?? Are they concerned > > a northwest passage opening up will cause some kind of conflict > > with northern Europe?? Do they really take seriously the Hollywood > > notion that global warming will plunge us into a new ice age? What is > > that about really?? Seems the pentagon types would be the last to > > notice or care about global warming.? > > ? > > spike > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 4873 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 11:20:47 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:20:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] We Must Learn To Repair The Brain Message-ID: <470a3c520501080320374e6fb8@mail.gmail.com> Longevity Meme: A discussion of stem cell research in the Danvers Herald provides a good feel for the reasons why research into the human brain is vital to the future healthy life extension. The more we learn, the more we find can go wrong in the aging brain; articles like this make Paul Allen's decision to fund the Brain Atlas project look very smart. Twenty years from now, when most of the major organs in the body can be repaired in situ or regrown from scratch, regenerative neuroscience will become increasingly important. The brain is in a class of its own - the one organ we can't just replace as a matter of last resort. The technologies used to repair aging or damaged brains must, by necessity, be more advanced. http://www.longevitymeme.org/news/view_news_item.cfm?news_id=1425 From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jan 8 15:34:07 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 09:34:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Death by Injury VS Infection Vs Ageing- STATS? In-Reply-To: <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> Message-ID: <41DFFD6F.5030907@sasktel.net> When one separates the stats on causes of death is it appropriate to have only 3 categories: Injury- accident, murder, suicide, war, starvation, childbirth ,medical procedure failure Infection - all infectious disease acute and chronic under age 65, congenital malformations leading to death under age 6, allergy related Ageing as a generalized, chronic degenerative terminal disease - infectious disease after age 65, congenital malformations after age 6, all the chronic and various wide ranging degenerative conditions from heart disease to cancer to neurological catastrophe, and general systemic failure including all the longer term ones such as low level inflammatory conditions such as arthritis. Has onyone a quick link to stats for their country that can be sorted out in this way? Does any country or organization accept ageing as a disease in a format as above? From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 8 16:01:00 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 09:01:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Postscript to "Fabulous Prophecies"; SHARE fund for tsunami relief; Skeptics Society conference Message-ID: <41E003BC.AE73B22B@mindspring.com> Some miscellany: 1. I've published a postscript to my "Fabulous Prophecies of the Messiah" at the Secular Web responding to some critics: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html#postscript 2. The Center for Inquiry has set up a tsunami relief fund called Secular Humanist Aid and Relief Effort (SHARE) to donate the funds to a charity in Sri Lanka recommended by Arthur C. Clarke. The Internet Infidels has made a donation and has a link on the front page of the Secular Web (http://www.infidels.org), though that donation link seems to be temporarily not working and the Center for Inquiry's website (http://www.centerforinquiry.net) suggests to send checks by mail. 3. Shermer's Skeptics Society conference will be held again this May 13-15 at Caltech on the subject "Brain, Mind, and Consciousness." Featured speakers include John Allman, Susan Blackmore, Richard McNally, Stephen Quartz, V. S. Ramachandran (author of _Phantoms in the Brain_), Ursula Goodenough, Alison Gopnik, Hank Schlinger, Terry Sejnowski, Christoph Koch, Paul Zak, and special guest Michael Crichton (which should be quite interesting since he's a believer in the paranormal); there will also be magic and illusions from Jerry Andrus, Bob Friedhoffer, and Mark Edward, and James Randi will be on the bill for 30 minutes before Crichton. I've already registered and would enjoy meeting list members there. You can register at http://www.skeptic.com. -- Jim Lippard -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From megao at sasktel.net Sat Jan 8 17:54:15 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:54:15 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Death by Injury VS Infection Vs Ageing- STATS? In-Reply-To: <41DFFD6F.5030907@sasktel.net> References: <20050105191227.14752.qmail@post.phpwebhosting.com> <41DD3D58.2040501@neopax.com> <41DFFD6F.5030907@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <41E01E47.3050907@sasktel.net> Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > When one separates the stats on causes of death is it appropriate to > have only 3 categories: > > Injury- accident, murder, suicide, war, starvation, childbirth > ,medical procedure failure > > Infection - all infectious disease acute and chronic under age 65, > congenital malformations leading to death under age 6, allergy related > > Ageing as a generalized, chronic degenerative terminal disease - > infectious disease after age 65, congenital malformations after age 6, > all the chronic and various wide ranging degenerative conditions from > heart disease to cancer to neurological catastrophe, and general > systemic failure including all the longer term ones such as low level > inflammatory conditions such as arthritis. > > Has onyone a quick link to stats for their country that can be sorted > out in this way? > Does any country or organization accept ageing as a disease in a > format as above? > Found with a google search of words chronic +degenerative plus pharase "ageing as a disease" a paper: http://www.maxlife.org/ownersmanual.pdf with just the stats I mentioned above for the USA for 1996 A graph showing the changing relationship between accidental, infectious and ageing complex related deaths over the last several centuries might also demonstrate the situation simply > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From spike66 at comcast.net Sat Jan 8 18:03:42 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 10:03:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global EnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c4f5ac$6510db00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Samantha Atkins Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global EnvironmentCitizenAward Spike, And why is it that bright people on this list have mostly only harped on points they disagree with or that play to their favored positions while missing the urgency of the inmates having considerable influence in the earth's only remaining superpower?... This phrase "only remaining superpower" has been exaggerated. The U.S. does have a really big really modern military, but it is getting less big all the time. Fewer people are signing up for the reserves, after learning they may be called upon to go to some evolution-forsaken place and fight, early and often. We have seen in the past couple years that under certain circumstances, a huge coalition of powerful nations can be very limited in how much it can do. We have seen where wars are transitioning from the old fashioned kill-people-and- destroy-things to a more modern information war. This transition started with the first atomic bomb. ... I would think there are more important matters at hand. Or is this sort of response just diversion in the face of that which one feels powerless to change? - samantha I did do something about it. In the recent election, W and that tall senator guy were both religionistas. I voted against them. Bill Moyers: ... even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening gulf stream could yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of changes that could radically alter civilizations... Moyers seems to speak as tho radically altering civilizations and overwhelming changes are a bad thing. I see this radical change as a most promising development. The threat of religionistas with political power is indeed an issue, but I anticipate a change in the next 10 to 15 years that may be the salvation of humanity. We will surely work out wearable computers with continuous links to the internet. Most of us here enjoyed having about 20 points tacked onto our IQs by having access to the internet. We suddenly had the biggest library in the world brought to our desktops. The Google came along, the second member of the holy info-trinity, the tool that allows us to find things. The third and possibly most important development is to have the contents of the internet with us 24-7. When we get that, it will be immediately obvious that anyone without that connection is the modern day version of a hermit, irrelevant in every important way. We will be able to download photos instantly from wherever we are, which will allow us for the first time to see things as they really are. We will be able to take photos from any location and post them. Instead of bloggers, we would be phloggers. When we hear of a news story, we would look thru the phloggers eyes to see it firsthand. Car show time! More later. spike From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 19:54:09 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 11:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <41DF20A0.8020308@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as > safe. > > > No, they just think they do. > The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far > outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. > The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, > even once in their lives. The one time I became a victim of assault, the assailant was high on drugs, and I was unarmed. As many of you know, I am not a small man. I pack a punch, and I have some training in hand to hand combat. This guy just wouldn't go down. After pummelling him several times and attempting to walk away several times, the police finally showed up (this happened on a well populated street in the club district of Burlington, VT) after about 15 minutes, when I was pretty worn out and worried about ending it positively. If I had been in an isolated area, it likely would have come out much worse for me. If I had been a petite woman, or elderly person, I would have had no hope. Maintaining one's body as a deadly weapon takes far more effort, time, expense, and dedication than owning and carrying a deadly weapon. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sat Jan 8 21:07:00 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:07:00 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Survey: Nanotechnology Message-ID: <41E04B74.FBA96214@mindspring.com> [The Economist carried a series of articles on nanotechnology. "Apply here Where very small things can make a big difference. Page 5 "Fear and loathing Some of the worries about nanotechnology are rational, some not. Page 7 "Downsizing Companies both large and small hope to make big money from tiny particles. Page 9 "Handle with care Nanotechnology promises great benefits, but safeguards will be essential. Page 11" Terry < http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3494722 > SURVEY: NANOTECHNOLOGY Small wonders Dec 29th 2004 >From The Economist print edition Nanotechnology will give humans greater control of matter at tiny scales. That is a good thing, says Natasha Loder (interviewed here) ATOMS are the fundamental building blocks of matter, which means they are very small indeed. The world at the scale of atoms and molecules is difficult to describe and hard to imagine. It is so odd that it even has its own special branch of physics, called quantum mechanics, to explain the strange things that happen there. If you were to throw a tennis ball against a brick wall, you might be surprised if the ball passed cleanly through the wall and sailed out on the other side. Yet this is the kind of thing that happens at the quantum scale. At very small scales, the properties of a material, such as colour, magnetism and the ability to conduct electricity, also change in unexpected ways. It is not possible to ?see? the atomic world in the normal sense of the word, because its features are smaller than the wavelength of visible light (see table 1). But back in 1981, researchers at IBM designed a probe called the scanning tunnelling microscope (STM), named after a quantum-mechanical effect it employs. Rather like the stylus on an old-fashioned record player, it could trace the bumps and grooves of the nanoscale world. This allowed scientists to ?see? atoms and molecules for the first time. It revealed landscapes as beautiful and complex as the ridges, troughs and valleys of a Peruvian mountainside, but at the almost unimaginably small nanometre (nm) scale. A nanometre is a billionth of a metre, or roughly the length of ten hydrogen atoms. Although scientists had thought about tinkering with things this small as long ago as the late 1950s, they had to wait until the invention of the STM to make it possible. ...more at URL... -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 21:08:17 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:08:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050108051154.85034.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050108210817.667.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- spike wrote: > > This oddball comment again. I've heard it several > > times, and I have > > yet to understand why Moyers thinks the pentagon > > would give a damn > > if there is additional fresh water in the Atlantic. > > The Pentagon's mission is to defend the US. Granted, > it's usually supposed to focus on military threats, > but an environmental catastrophe big enough to disrupt > civilization is everybody's problem. So is alien invasion, which the Pentagon has also developed plans and strategies for. Doesn't make it any more statistically possible or less nutty. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From harara at sbcglobal.net Sat Jan 8 21:30:01 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:30:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050108132438.029b88b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Lets take this one step further: We all have a "vulnerable" button. This can be triggered by anyone else within 10 meters or so. First shot causes one to sit down safely and stay still for 5 minutes. Full sensory recording on, illegal to interfere with immobilized person except to save from injury or death. Only those with buttons can use them. Second use of button adds 5 more minutes and applies to pusher and pushee. At this point local law enforcement is signaled. If after 5 minutes, anyone pushes button, all sit down, lose consciousness, local med team or law enforcement has to do reset. Strong reinforcer of being careful with ones actions.... At 04:02 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: >As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long >lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to >learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal >weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations >if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a >fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all >possible. > >That said, non-lethal weapons also leave one at a disadvantage when up >against attackers who are using lethal weapons. If they get a shot >end then you are dead. If you get a shot in then they live to perhaps >attack another day. It is thus to their advantage to keep attacking >until they win as long as they have the desire to do so. > >- s ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From sjatkins at mac.com Sat Jan 8 22:53:41 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:53:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global EnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000c01c4f5ac$6510db00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000c01c4f5ac$6510db00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 8, 2005, at 10:03 AM, spike wrote: > > ... I would think there are more important matters at hand. Or is this > sort > of response just diversion in the face of that which one feels > powerless to > change? - samantha > > > > I did do something about it. In the recent election, W and that > tall senator guy were both religionistas. I voted against them. > As did I. Obviously it was not sufficient (remotely) to deal with the problem. > > > > Bill Moyers: > > > ... even the Pentagon is growing alarmed that a weakening gulf stream > could > yield abrupt and overwhelming changes, the kind of changes that could > radically alter civilizations... > > > > Moyers seems to speak as tho radically altering civilizations and > overwhelming changes are a bad thing. I see this radical change as > a most promising development. The threat of religionistas with > political power is indeed an issue, but I anticipate a change in > the next 10 to 15 years that may be the salvation of humanity. We > will surely work out wearable computers with continuous links to > the internet. Having the world's economy and ability to feed itself largely fall apart plus destruction of a lot of very valuable people, resources and goods would be extremely un-extropic. It could also quite easily fuel a repent-and-get-right-with-God hysteria that makes today's problems with fundies look utterly insignificant. I am sure that you would not see those sorts of radical alterations as remotely conducive to our goals. Such a disruption may nearly flat-line high tech development, life extension work and so on. Scarcity severe enough that mere survival becomes problematic tends to do that. > > Most of us here enjoyed having about 20 points tacked > onto our IQs by having access to the internet. We suddenly > had the biggest library in the world brought to our desktops. > The Google came along, the second member of the holy info-trinity, > the tool that allows us to find things. The third and possibly > most important development is to have the contents of the > internet with us 24-7. When we get that, it will be immediately > obvious that anyone without that connection is the modern > day version of a hermit, irrelevant in every important way. > We won't get it if the world falls apart abruptly or more slowly to a significant degree first. That is the point. Hell, we won't even get it if we can't get the bureaucrats sufficiently out of the way. The point being that only seeing the very promising technological progress and what can be done from here without watching out for and attempting to avoid or ameliorate dangers that could stop progress dead in its tracks or reverse it is quite myopic and potentially deadly. - samantha From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 8 22:55:28 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:55:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050108132438.029b88b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050108225528.16141.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Gedankenexperiments don't save lives, no matter how much handwaving you do. I don't see any proposals for a real technology here. Not only that, but the scenario is a failure, for the same reason gun control is a failure: because it doesn't address those who break the law by not having a button, or having a hacked button that doesn't work properly. If the criminal doesn't have such a button, how is a person supposed to defend themselves against the criminal, since the criminal would then not be able to be subdued. --- Hara Ra wrote: > Lets take this one step further: We all have a "vulnerable" button. > This can be triggered by anyone else within 10 meters or so. First > shot causes one to sit down safely and stay still for 5 minutes. > Full sensory recording on, illegal to interfere with immobilized > person except to save from injury or death. Only those with buttons > can use them. Second use of button adds 5 more minutes and applies > to pusher and pushee. At this point local law enforcement is > signaled. > > If after 5 minutes, anyone pushes button, all sit down, lose > consciousness, local med team or law enforcement has to do reset. > > Strong reinforcer of being careful with ones actions.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From hkhenson at rogers.com Sat Jan 8 23:15:21 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 18:15:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] We Must Learn To Repair The Brain In-Reply-To: <470a3c520501080320374e6fb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050108181331.03308a40@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:20 PM 08/01/05 +0100, you wrote: snip > The brain is in a >class of its own - the one organ we can't just replace as a matter of >last resort. snip Always remember, with a brain transplant operation you want to be the *donor.* Keith Henson From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 23:39:32 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 17:39:32 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: References: <002901c4f52b$29958480$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: The environmental message is important, although i suppose impending environmental doom could further spur technological advances and contribute to the singularity. Another interesting point brought up is that the government of the US, the most powerful nation in the world, is currently dominated by both Theology AND Ideology, something Moyer claims has never happened before: "That's why they have declared solidarity with Israel and the Jewish settlements and backed up their support with money and volunteers. It's why the invasion of Iraq for them was a warm-up act, predicted in the Book of Revelation where four angels 'which are bound in the great river Euphrates will be released to slay the third part of man.' A war with Islam in the Middle East is not something to be feared but welcomed - an essential conflagration on the road to redemption. " Whether or not action in Iraq is a mistake, the US running around the world starting conflicts because of religious beliefs is rather frightening. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 02:06:38 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 18:06:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050109020638.36292.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Swanson wrote: > The environmental message is important, although i suppose impending > environmental doom could further spur technological advances and > contribute to the singularity. > > Another interesting point brought up is that the government of the > US, the most powerful nation in the world, is currently dominated by > both Theology AND Ideology, something Moyer claims has never happened > before: Which is clearly a lie to any idiot who has ever read US history. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dirk at neopax.com Sun Jan 9 02:19:29 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 02:19:29 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tsunami surfing Message-ID: <41E094B1.6050507@neopax.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4153109.stm A German, the manager of a quarry, wrote his recollections of being swept away. He was carried off the top of his three-storey office building at the summit of a 30m high hill. The tsunami that roared in from the sea that Monday morning in 1883 must have been 40m high, at least. He recalled being carried along on the wave's green unbroken crest, watching the jungle racing below, paralysed with fear. Then suddenly to his right, he saw, being swept along beside him, an enormous crocodile. With incredible presence-of-mind he decided the only way to save himself was to leap aboard the crocodile and try to ride to safety on its back. How he did it is anyone's guess, but he insists he leapt on, dug his thumbs into the creature's eye-sockets to keep himself stable, and surfed on it for 3km. He held on until the wave broke on a distant hill, depositing him and a presumably very irritated croc on the jungle floor. He ran, survived, and wrote about the story. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 9 03:28:32 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:28:32 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Having the world's economy and ability to feed itself largely fall apart plus destruction of a lot of very valuable people, resources and goods would be extremely un-extropic... - samantha Certainly, however the models of global warming causing ocean currents being disrupted bringing an ice age to Northern Europe always seemed contradictory to me. Be that as it may, let us assume for the sake of argument that there are real risks, ones I am willing to grant, such as that Antarctic ice shelf collapse, raising the sea level 5 meters. With that in mind, let us ask why the U.S. and Australia refused to ratify the Kyoto agreement. I can think of a couple reasons. One of the biggies is that the U.S. government hasn't the authority to reduce CO2 emissions. No one in Washington can dictate that, altho I see that Taxifornia politicians are attempting it. Let us see how that works out. The larger issue I see is that the Kyoto agreement deals only with reducing emissions of CO2, not with ways of drawing existing CO2 out of the atmosphere. Both the U.S. and Australia have vast stretches of land with little growing on it. We could divert rivers inland and grow forests where now there are grassy plains. Consider eucalyptus globulus. It can grow in a variety of soils, even rocky, poor soils, given sufficent water. They grow really fast, producing a soft but dense wood. We could grow eucalytus forests in the American southwest, cut them when perhaps a meter in diameter at the base, cut off the branches and tie them together in enormous bundles of perhaps a thousand logs bound with steel cable. The bundles could then be floated in the Pacific Ocean and allowed to drift until they become sufficiently waterlogged to sink to the bottom. Eucalyptus globulus is native to Australia already, so the same could be done there. If the wood does not get waterlogged enough to sink, then we could allow it to drift in the Pacific current until it gets into the Southern hemisphere, at which time the bundles could perhaps be towed to Antarctica, where they would be pulled from the water and hauled inland, where it would take centuries to decay, for the organisms which are adapted for such tasks would surely be unable to survive in that bitterly cold climate. My question is this: if the Kyoto accord authors are *really* primarily concerned with reducing CO2, why not look at other possibilities besides just reducing emissions? There are better answers. spike From dirk at neopax.com Sun Jan 9 04:53:04 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:53:04 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <948b11e050108130082c579@mail.gmail.com> References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> <948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> <41DF2C37.9070404@neopax.com> <948b11e050108130082c579@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <41E0B8B0.5030208@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: >Wonderful! Thanks for the quote. While (of course) I disagree with >C S Lewis about a great many things I thoroughly enjoyed much of his >work in my teens including his apologetics. I don't think I cam >across this quote though. Where is it from? > > > Googling, " _The Weight of Glory_." I've had it for quite a few years - at least 12 IIRC. Always meant to use it in a Transhumanist context, but never really got around to it until now:-) Another quote I like concerns paganism, which he was apparently defending despite being an Xian: *You said 'The world is going back to Paganism'.* Oh bright Vision! I saw our dynasty in the bar of the House Spill from their tumblers a libation to the Erinyes, And Leavis with Lord Russell wreathed in flowers, heralded with flutes, Leading white bulls to the cathedral of the solemn Muses To pay where due the glory of their latest theorem. Hestia's fire in every flat, rekindled, burned before The Lardergods. Unmarried daughters with obedient hands Tended it By the hearth the white-armd venerable mother /Domum servabat, lanam faciebat./ at the hour Of sacrifice their brothers came, silent, corrected, grave Before their elders; on their downy cheeks easily the blush Arose (it is the mark of freemen's children) as they trooped, Gleaming with oil, demurely home from the palaestra or the dance. Walk carefully, do not wake the envy of the happy gods, Shun Hubris. The middle of the road, the middle sort of men, Are best. Aidos surpasses gold. Reverence for the aged Is wholesome as seasonable rain, and for a man to die Defending the city in battle is a harmonious thing. Thus with magistral hand the Puritan Sophrosune Cooled and schooled and tempered our uneasy motions; Heathendom came again, the circumspection and the holy fears ... You said it. Did you mean it? Oh inordinate liar, stop. 2 Or did you mean another kind of heathenry? Think, then, that under heaven-roof the little disc of the earth, Fortified Midgard, lies encircled by the ravening Worm. Over its icy bastions faces of giant and troll Look in, ready to invade it. The Wolf, admittedly, is bound; But the bond wil1 break, the Beast run free. The weary gods, Scarred with old wounds the one-eyed Odin, Tyr who has lost a hand, Will limp to their stations for the Last defence. Make it your hope To be counted worthy on that day to stand beside them; For the end of man is to partake of their defeat and die His second, final death in good company. The stupid, strong Unteachable monsters are certain to be victorious at last, And every man of decent blood is on the losing side. Take as your model the tall women with yellow hair in plaits Who walked back into burning houses to die with men, Or him who as the death spear entered into his vitals Made critical comments on its workmanship and aim. *Are these the Pagans you spoke of? Know your betters and crouch, dogs; You that have Vichy water in your veins and worship the event Your goddess History (whom your fathers called the strumpet Fortune).* -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 04:53:31 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:53:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: > Certainly, however the models of global warming causing > ocean currents being disrupted bringing an ice age to > Northern Europe always seemed contradictory to me. As mentioned before, the concern of global warming eventually causing some areas of the globe to become cooler stems from a theory suggesting that thermohaline circulation, or the haline cycle as another called it, may shut down. Basically, ocean currents act as a conveyor belt moving water all over the world. Warm, salty water flows from the pacific and indian oceans into the north atlantic where it cools, sinks, and eventually flows southward again. This warm water flowing into the north atlantic is reponsible for the relatively mild winters in western europe and north america. Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. I haven't come across any articles claiming that this can bring about an ice age, but it will cause colder winters in north america and europe. What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 04:55:12 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:55:12 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: References: <244A61B0-61C8-11D9-94EC-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <000001c4f5fb$51908a40$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: Sorry, forgot sources: http://www.grida.no/climate/vital/32.htm http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/Science/Conveyor.asp > > As mentioned before, the concern of global warming eventually causing > some areas of the globe to become cooler stems from a theory > suggesting that thermohaline circulation, or the haline cycle as > another called it, may shut down. > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 05:33:52 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:33:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jon Swanson wrote: > Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing > tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus > increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may > prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving > southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. > > With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in > NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. > > I haven't come across any articles claiming that this can bring about > an ice age, but it will cause colder winters in north america and > europe. North America gets its cold from Alaska and the Yukon. As there is no ice there, the winter wouldn't get colder.... you folks need to start using real logic when you construct your propaganda. > > What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? There are plenty of methods of carbon sequestration that would be cheaper than hamstringing every developed economy with overbearing taxes on energy that would never be used on the environment, instead the energy tax revinues are to be used on constructing a global wefare state, not what the proponents of the greenhouse theory claim, but looking at the groups doing the talking, it is their primary agenda. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From jon.swanson at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 07:25:58 2005 From: jon.swanson at gmail.com (Jon Swanson) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 01:25:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is > melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool > europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. I'm not really an expert on the idea, but I have heard of it before and decided to throw it out there because it seems to be /the theory/ cited by people who predict cooling in certain areas of the world as a result of global warming. The contradiction you point out makes sense. Perhaps though the melting is going on during the summer. Salinity levels would not change all that much during the winter months, and thus the conveyor belt would still be shut down. Perhaps the belt is currently warming the north enough that the additional warmth from the green house effect is sufficient to melt the ice. Again, I just read the article and paraphrased, but for the sake of illustrating an idea lets just assume that thermohaline circulation is responsible for making northern regions 10 degrees warmer than otherwise, and global warming adds another 2 degrees. The extra 2 degrees may be enough to increase the rate of freshwater melt during the summer months to the point that it shuts down the cycle. Once the cycle is shut down, the average temperature would 8 degrees lower than normal. In this extremely contrived example. There have been numerous studies on this, and these people are not stupid. The idea may be used for propaganda, claiming that it may bring about an ice age certainly seems to be propaganda, but that does not mean that it is scientifically unsound. > There are plenty of methods of carbon sequestration that would be > cheaper than hamstringing every developed economy with overbearing > taxes on energy that would never be used on the environment, instead > the energy tax revinues are to be used on constructing a global wefare > state, not what the proponents of the greenhouse theory claim, but > looking at the groups doing the talking, it is their primary agenda. People in the US argue back and forth about the merit of Kyoto. I'm more curious about the cheaper alternatives you suggest, and why they are superior to cutting back our CO2 emissions. I'm not saying there aren't any, so please don't rip me apart. I'd just like to know which cheaper and /or superior solutions you are suggesting. Please correct my ignorance. Again, if you want a more detailed explanation of the idea outlined in my previous post, check out: http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/abruptclimate_joyce_keigwin.html On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 21:33:52 -0800 (PST), Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Jon Swanson wrote: > > > Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing > > tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus > > increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may > > prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving > > southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. > > > > With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in > > NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. > > Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is > melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool > europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. > > > > > I haven't come across any articles claiming that this can bring about > > an ice age, but it will cause colder winters in north america and > > europe. > > North America gets its cold from Alaska and the Yukon. As there is no > ice there, the winter wouldn't get colder.... you folks need to start > using real logic when you construct your propaganda. > > > > > What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? > > There are plenty of methods of carbon sequestration that would be > cheaper than hamstringing every developed economy with overbearing > taxes on energy that would never be used on the environment, instead > the energy tax revinues are to be used on constructing a global wefare > state, not what the proponents of the greenhouse theory claim, but > looking at the groups doing the talking, it is their primary agenda. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! > http://my.yahoo.com > > From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 9 07:28:07 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Jon Swanson: What are the better solutions to the CO2 problem you had in mind? Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. Do the calculations, they are not at all difficult. I understand CO2 has gone from about 300 parts per million in the atmosphere to about 360 in this century. So 60 ppm is the reduction goal, and if a square meter of atmosphere weighs about 1e5 newtons, so it has a mass of about 1e4 kg. The earth's radius is about 6.4e7 meters and the surface area of a sphere is 4*pi*r^2 so about 5e14 m^2 so an atmosphere has a mass of about 5e18 kg. 60 ppm means about 3e14 CO2, which is about 1e14 kg of carbon, if we dont get too worried past 1 digit precision. Wood is nearly all carbon (assuming one digit precision), so about 1e11 cubic meters of wood must be produced, bundled and sunk in the sea or squirreled away in Antarctica somewhere. Of course it is a big wood pile: 10 meters deep by 100 km on a side, but land is cheap down there. Hell its nothing but ice, snow and a few penguins, and they don't vote. Can this be produced? A 10-15 year old eucalyptus globulus is about something over meter diameter and fifteen meters tall, so for single digit precision we can estimate it at 10 cubic meters of wood, so we would need 1E10 such logs. Can we produce ten billion of these? I think we can. Imagine them on 20 meter centers, so a couple thousand of these can be produced on each square km, so a couple good sized western U.S. states, the obscure ones that aren't good for much of anything and no one ever heard of anyway (such as Wyoming and Utah) is close enough to a million square km there, two billion trees per generation of 10-15 years, it would only take 5 generations (50 to 75 years) to generate that 1e14 kg of carbon in the form of eucalyptus logs. And all it would cost us is a couple of red states and a good sized river, such as the Sacramento or the Columbia, and we are there. We have 50 of them, we would never miss a couple. And we haven't even started to use up Australia yet, mate. Or Africa. There they are, sitting on the Sahara desert not doing anything, and a skerjillion low-wage people needing jobs. Why do we sit around and wring our hands over global warming instead of getting on with fixing it? The Kyoto accord doesn't have the right means of fixing it. spike From thespike at satx.rr.com Sun Jan 9 07:44:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 01:44:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Great Climate Flip-Flop In-Reply-To: References: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050109013748.019a5ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:25 AM 1/9/2005 -0600, Jon Swanson wrote: >Again, if you want a more detailed explanation of the idea outlined in >my previous post, check out: >http://www.whoi.edu/institutes/occi/currenttopics/abruptclimate_joyce_keigwin.html Linked from the same site is Bill Calvin's famous essay: http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/98jan/climate.htm * The Great Climate Flip-Flop * Atlantic Monthly, January 1998, William Calvin but you have to be a subscriber, damn it. It used to be on Calvin's website; might still be. Hang on. Ah: http://williamcalvin.com/1990s/1998AtlanticClimate.htm which has the essay, and his replies to critics: http://williamcalvin.com/1990s/1998LettersReplyAtlMonthly.htm Damien Broderick From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 12:22:23 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:22:23 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800, spike wrote: > > Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. > There are already many 'plant a tree' campaigns all around the world. For one example, see: "In our Global ReLeaf? campaign our goal is to help people around the world plant one billion new trees in the next five years. In the United States the goal of our Trees Across America is to help get one tree planted for every American by 2007." (US population - about 300 million) The vanishing of existing forests and the resulting natural disasters, e.g. soil erosion, landslides, floods, air pollution, etc. are causing more and more attention to be given to re-forestation. Third World population increases cause forests to be cleared for farming, so the rapid industrialization of the Third World will reduce this effect. As the Indian government noted, forests planted along shorelines also break the force of any tsunamis that hit the coast. BillK From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 13:27:04 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:27:04 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] WT: Stem-cell ambivalence Message-ID: <470a3c5205010905273e21c8de@mail.gmail.com> It's easy to forget that stem-cell research is still in its infancy, considering all the reports that predict it could provide treatments - perhaps even cures - for life-threatening diseases such as Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and diabetes. But Charles Jennings, executive director of Harvard University's Stem Cell Institute, says there already have been some breakthroughs. Researchers in Sweden and the United States have demonstrated, using dopamine transplants, "clear clinical" evidence of the promise stem-cell research holds for Parkinson's patients, he said. And in a study by Japanese scientists, published last week in the Journal of Clinical Investigation, stem cells taken from monkey embryos and implanted in the brain reversed some Parkinson's symptoms in other monkeys. The researchers say their work supports arguments that stem cells taken from days-old embryos can be used to replace tissues damaged by a variety of diseases. http://washingtontimes.com/specialreport/20050109-120809-5421r.htm From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Sun Jan 9 16:39:54 2005 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:39:54 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109053352.52931.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters in >> NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. > >Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is >melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool >europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. And I don't see how having less ice will avoid cooling selected parts of the world. There's no need to go under zero to call spring, summer and fall "cold", except maybe for residents of Calgary and Fairbanks :-) Alfio From fauxever at sprynet.com Sun Jan 9 17:13:12 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:13:12 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Inaugural Excess Message-ID: <003f01c4f66e$8094d710$6600a8c0@brainiac> In keeping with the image of the aw-shucks average (albeit ersatz) Texan who's just a down home good Christian boy, why not simply hold a bake sale? (the government, after all, could use a little more cash): http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57877-2005Jan7.html Olga From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 9 17:24:33 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:24:33 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> BillK wrote: >On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800, spike wrote: > > >>Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. >> >> >> > >There are already many 'plant a tree' campaigns all around the world. >For one example, see: > >"In our Global ReLeaf? campaign our goal is to help people around the >world plant one billion new trees in the next five years. In the >United States the goal of our Trees Across America is to help get one >tree planted for every American by 2007." >(US population - about 300 million) > > > Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this approach is water. As an alternative, we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern US: this actually makes economic sense. We can also encourage trees rather than grass in the suburbs of the eastern US. My house sits on 2 acres, 1.5 acres is wooded. This was treeless farmland until about 1950. The natural progression moves from soft-wood through quick-growing hardwood to slow-growing dense hardwood. My gut feeling is that without any management at all this progression sequesters progressively more carbon per acre. If I desired to sequester carbon more aggressively, I would simply collect most of the fallen leaves annually: This is done in denser suburbs in my area. Unfortunately, the leaf collecting authorities then turn around and give the leaves away to gardeners, etc., who in a mass act of environmental abuse then encourage them to rot and release the sequestered carbon back into the atmosphere! Some people have no respect for the environment. The effective re-forestation of the US east is a very real phenomenon. If we could achieve re-forestation of other areas that were de-forested by civilization, we would sequester carbon more easily than we can by attempting to build forests in semi-arid locations. The prime candidate areas include Greece, Rome, areas of India and China, and much of Europe, all of which were heavily forested before human intervention. From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Sun Jan 9 17:38:48 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:38:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <51BAF7B0-6265-11D9-BC61-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:28 PM, spike wrote: > Can this be produced? A 10-15 year old eucalyptus globulus > is about something over meter diameter and fifteen meters tall, > so for single digit precision we can estimate it at 10 cubic > meters of wood, so we would need 1E10 such logs. Can we > produce ten billion of these? I think we can. Imagine > them on 20 meter centers, so a couple thousand of these > can be produced on each square km, so a couple good sized western > U.S. states, the obscure ones that aren't good for much > of anything and no one ever heard of anyway (such as Wyoming and > Utah) is close enough to a million square km there, two billion > trees per generation of 10-15 years, it would only take > 5 generations (50 to 75 years) to generate that 1e14 kg of > carbon in the form of eucalyptus logs. This won't work, at least not at these numbers. Commercial gene-engineered eucalyptus in high-yield plantations generate 20 tons of eucalyptus tree per acre per year on the average high-end using 7-year rotations, with a typical tree density of 1,000 trees per acre. 2 billion trees at this density is 2 million acres and only 40 million tons of new plant matter annually. At that rate, it will take 2500 years to sequester 10e11 tonnes of carbon assuming a direct conversion. On the upside, the total area required is smaller than most Western counties, and less than the total Federal land ownership in most of those counties. The other, more problem is the water. Your plan would require something on the order of 10e7 acre-feet of water annually -- the high growth rate is fueled by heavy water consumption -- and you'll have to find a way to deliver this to western states that have annual fresh water resource capacity measured in a few million acre-feet per year. None of the water districts in the western US have anything remotely resembling 10 million acre-feet of excess capacity unless one completely drains one of the major rivers. Your best bet would probably be the midwest rather than the mountain west. Far more water, and similar population density (though not urbanized like the West). To make this work in 50 years, you would need to scale this up by a factor of 50 or so. Quite a bit of land, and making water a true rate-limiting factor. (Behold, the power of google.) j. andrew rogers From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 17:54:40 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 09:54:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >> With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters > >> in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. > > > >Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is > >melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool > >europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. > > I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate > is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their > lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem > really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. The people making such outlandish projections really are NOT experts in the field, they are dilletants with a political agenda who lack important capabilities of thinking logically because of their ideological blinders. I don't discuss my sources of information on this list anymore because someone here (or who reads this list online) with a socialist agenda informed their compadres in academia, who threatened my sources with losses of funding, degrees, and tenure if they cooperated with me. > > And I don't see how having less ice will avoid cooling selected parts > of the world. There's no need to go under zero to call spring, summer > and fall "cold", except maybe for residents of Calgary and Fairbanks. And given we are coming off a year where the heat in France killed 10,000 in the past summer, one would think europeans would be looking forward to a break. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 18:06:28 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the > western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this > approach is water. Water availability is synergistic with forest growth, as forests create their own climate, but they will likely need some kick starting. For example, I would support the flooding of Death Valley here in the US, as well as the Great Rift Valley in eastern Africa to help alter local weather systems. The Lake Effect from both new bodies of water (as well as their feeding local aquifers) should help act as a seed for forest growth. > As an alternative, > we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern > US: this actually makes economic sense. Western Americans may not realize it, but this has already occured. NH was once 90% cleared, it is now 90% forest. This is typical of much of the eastern states. The problem with forests really isn't in North America. Our forest growth already absorbs our emissions (which is why we didn't buy into Kyoto, because Europe didn't want us to be able to count that forest sequestration, they wanted it shared with everyone). The real problem with forestation is in Africa and Asia. Solving this means tying foreign aid to reforestation. Southern europe, Turkey, and the middle east could stand some effort in this direction as well. Too heavy reforestation WILL plunge us into an ice age, however, as the influence of CO2 on climate is steepest at lower concentrations. CO2's influence follows a diminishing returns curve with increasing concentration. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 9 18:47:42 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:47:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <005801c4f468$9d3f1630$6401a8c0@mtrainier><20050107172507.82347.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com><948b11e05010716025f9f60b3@mail.gmail.com> <6.0.3.0.1.20050108132438.029b88b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005501c4f67b$b3d35b80$9ceafb44@kevin> So if I see yu and you don;t see me, and I think I want to rob you, all I have to do is push your button and you will be entirely disabled while I clean out your pockets? Recording isn;t going to help any more than it helps now. Last I heard, the average American was recorded about 6 times per day as it is. Most robberies are recorded very well. What makes this different? Not trying to trash the idea. I actually like it. I just want to tear it apart and get all the bugs out. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hara Ra" To: "Samantha Atkins" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 3:30 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > Lets take this one step further: We all have a "vulnerable" button. This > can be triggered by anyone else within 10 meters or so. First shot causes > one to sit down safely and stay still for 5 minutes. Full sensory recording > on, illegal to interfere with immobilized person except to save from injury > or death. Only those with buttons can use them. Second use of button adds 5 > more minutes and applies to pusher and pushee. At this point local law > enforcement is signaled. > > If after 5 minutes, anyone pushes button, all sit down, lose consciousness, > local med team or law enforcement has to do reset. > > Strong reinforcer of being careful with ones actions.... > > At 04:02 PM 1/7/2005, you wrote: > >As a person who believes in the possibility of indefinitely long > >lifespan, neurological plasticity and unlimited ability of people to > >learn better given enough time, I would definitely prefer a non-lethal > >weapon of sufficient stopping power in everyday defensive situations > >if such was equivalently available. I would not willingly kill a > >fellow potential immortal for the stupidity of attacking me if at all > >possible. > > > >That said, non-lethal weapons also leave one at a disadvantage when up > >against attackers who are using lethal weapons. If they get a shot > >end then you are dead. If you get a shot in then they live to perhaps > >attack another day. It is thus to their advantage to keep attacking > >until they win as long as they have the desire to do so. > > > >- s > > ================================== > = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = > = harara at sbcglobal.net = > = Alcor North Cryomanagement = > = Alcor Advisor to Board = > = 831 429 8637 = > ================================== > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 9 18:50:56 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:50:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <005501c4f67b$b3d35b80$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050109185056.26372.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > So if I see yu and you don;t see me, and I think I want to rob you, > all I > have to do is push your button and you will be entirely disabled > while I > clean out your pockets? Recording isn;t going to help any more than > it helps > now. Last I heard, the average American was recorded about 6 times > per day > as it is. Most robberies are recorded very well. What makes this > different? > > Not trying to trash the idea. I actually like it. I just want to tear > it apart and get all the bugs out. :-) a) the state always gets to disable whoever it wants b) there will also be a black market for hacked buttons that disable others but not a perpetrator (most likely sold by corrupt cops) Turning everyone into insta-victims is not the solution. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From puglisi at arcetri.astro.it Sun Jan 9 19:33:46 2005 From: puglisi at arcetri.astro.it (Alfio Puglisi) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:33:46 +0100 (MET) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >--- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> >> With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters >> >> in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. >> > >> >Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is >> >melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool >> >europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. >> >> I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate >> is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their >> lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem >> really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. > >The people making such outlandish projections really are NOT experts in >the field, they are dilletants with a political agenda who lack >important capabilities of thinking logically because of their >ideological blinders. I was speaking about both proponents and detractors of global warming. "CO2 is going to warm the planet up" or "CO2 will have no measurable effect" are both educated guesses, given the scarce data we have. >And given we are coming off a year where the heat in France killed >10,000 in the past summer, one would think europeans would be looking >forward to a break. For France, Italy and the rest of southern Europe a sudden cooling would be bad, but not fatal. The problem would be in Northen Europe, where it's already damn cold for my standards, and they would become like Canada. No offence meant to canadians, my passport lists Montreal as the city of birth :-) Alfio From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 20:16:28 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:16:28 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 Message-ID: The hydrogen economy is one step closer with the announcement by ZAP (OTC Bulletin Board: ZAPZ) and Anuvu Incorporated of the availability this year of the first hydrogen fuel cell consumer vehicle, on display now at one of the world's largest technology tradeshows, CES, in Las Vegas. ZAP calls Anuvu's fuel cell systems "fuel cell hybrids" because they run on both hydrogen and electricity, like the gasoline-hybrids currently on the market. Unlike the gasoline hybrids, the by-product of Anuvu's technology is water vapor and nitrogen, classifying it as a "zero emission vehicle." ZAP's fuel cell technology partner, Anuvu Incorporated, converted the Nissan Frontier 4-door pick-up truck on display at CES. An innovative hybrid fuel cell system powers the vehicle on hydrogen and electricity. With seating for four, a 44-cubic feet cargo bed, power windows, power door locks, and air conditioning, the truck also works like a generator providing a standard 120-volt AC source for powering external machinery and appliances, from power tools to a whole campsite. Hyundai Motor Co.'s fuel cell electric vehicle (FCEV) program today unveiled its second-generation fuel cell vehicle, the Tucson FCEV, at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show. Built with lightweight, performance-boosting aluminum body components, the Tucson FCEV has a power-to-weight ratio similar to that of a conventional SUV. The Vectrix scooter, which is being made by an American company of the same name that specialises in green vehicles, boasts torque similar to that of a Ducati 900 motorbike, buzzes from 0-50mph in just 6.8sec and is capable of up to 68 miles on a single charge. Looks like they are getting the cost of fuel cell technology down to consumer market levels. Good news for saving gasoline. BillK From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 9 20:51:48 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:51:48 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> Hydrogen -fueled vehicles reduce point-of-use pollution. This is a very good thing in polluted urban areas. Whether or not they reduce oil usage depends on where the hydrogen comes from. I think that most hydrogen-fueled vehicles will use hydrogen generated from electricity, yes? if so, then those vehicles are in effect being powered by whatever new electrical generation capacity must be added to the power grid. I think that this new capacity will mostly be coal and oil fired plants. For oil-fired plants, we gain almost nothing, and we may actually lose. For coal-fired plants, coal-rich countries gain some energy independence, but only at the environmental cost of providing the coal. From a global warming perspective coal (pure carbon) emits the most CO2 per unit of energy, yes? Even if the vehicle is perfectly efficient, the total environmental efficiency must include all steps in the energy production chain. This is of course as true for gasoline and diesel as for hydrogen. Now I must go google for real numbers. In a very few cases the new electrical generators will be hydro, but there are few remaining places in the world for massive hydro without associated massive environmental effects. If the new generators are nuclear, there is a clear win. From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 9 21:24:42 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:24:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Alfio Puglisi wrote: > > > >>On Sat, 8 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: >> >> >> >>>>With no more warm water flowing into the north atlantic, winters >>>>in NA and Western Europe will most likely become much colder. >>>> >>>> >>>Which is a self contradicting statement. If the arctic ice cap is >>>melting due to warming, then there isn't gonna be any cold to cool >>>europe down. You can't chill your champagne without any ice, bub. >>> >>> >>I wonder how you are always so sure of your statements, Mike. Climate >>is so complex that any predictions made by people who spent their >>lives studying it are at best an educated guess, instead you seem >>really sure of what will happen 20+ years ahead. >> >> > >The people making such outlandish projections really are NOT experts in >the field, they are dilletants with a political agenda who lack >important capabilities of thinking logically because of their >ideological blinders. > > Your rather outlandish comments on the subject imply either that you have not read the literature on the subject or you have summarily dismissed it without comment. Both say rather unfortunate things about you and your arguments that you might want to attend to. >I don't discuss my sources of information on this list anymore because >someone here (or who reads this list online) with a socialist agenda >informed their compadres in academia, who threatened my sources with >losses of funding, degrees, and tenure if they cooperated with me. > > > Oooh. Secret sources of True Dependable information that can't be revealed because the e-v-i-l socialists will get them. Come on Mike. Surely you can seek how weak that line is. - samantha From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 21:48:08 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:48:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> References: <20050109175440.20291.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:24:42 -0800, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > Your rather outlandish comments on the subject imply either that you > have not read the literature on the subject or you have summarily > dismissed it without comment. Both say rather unfortunate things about > you and your arguments that you might want to attend to. > > Oooh. Secret sources of True Dependable information that can't be > revealed because the e-v-i-l socialists will get them. Come on Mike. > Surely you can see how weak that line is. > I think Mike's secret source of information might be the new Michael Crichton novel 'State of Fear' Quote: The odious villains in Michael Crichton's new thriller, the folks (as President Bush might put it) who kill, maim and terrorize, aren't members of al-Qaida or any other jihadi movement. They aren't Bondian bad guys like Goldfinger, Dr. No or Scaramanga. They aren't drug lords or gang members or associates of Tony Soprano's. No, the evil ones in "State of Fear" are tree-hugging environmentalists, believers in global warming, proponents of the Kyoto Protocol. Their surveillance operatives drive politically correct, hybrid Priuses; their hit men use an exotic, poisonous Australian octopus as their weapon of choice. Their unwitting (and sometimes, witting) allies are -- natch! -- the liberal media, trial lawyers, Hollywood celebrities, mainstream environmental groups (such as the Sierra Club and the Audubon Society) and other blue-state apparatchiks. End quote. Sounds just like Mike to me. ;) BillK From spike66 at comcast.net Sun Jan 9 21:58:56 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:58:56 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments-GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <51BAF7B0-6265-11D9-BC61-003065C9EC00@ceruleansystems.com> Message-ID: <001c01c4f696$6d997f80$6401a8c0@mtrainier> -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of J. Andrew Rogers Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 9:39 AM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments-GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward On Jan 8, 2005, at 11:28 PM, spike wrote: > Can this be produced? A 10-15 year old eucalyptus globulus > is about something over meter diameter and fifteen meters tall, > so for single digit precision we can estimate it at 10 cubic > meters of wood, so we would need 1E10 such logs. Can we > produce ten billion of these? I think we can. Imagine > them on 20 meter centers, so a couple thousand of these > can be produced on each square km, so a couple good sized western > U.S. states, the obscure ones that aren't good for much > of anything and no one ever heard of anyway (such as Wyoming and > Utah) is close enough to a million square km there, two billion > trees per generation of 10-15 years, it would only take > 5 generations (50 to 75 years) to generate that 1e14 kg of > carbon in the form of eucalyptus logs. J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >This won't work, at least not at these numbers. Commercial gene-engineered eucalyptus in high-yield plantations generate 20 tons of eucalyptus tree per acre per year on the average high-end using 7-year rotations, with a typical tree density of 1,000 trees per acre. 2 billion trees at this density is 2 million acres and only 40 million tons of new plant matter annually. At that rate, it will take 2500 years to sequester 10e11 tonnes of carbon assuming a direct conversion. On the upside, the total area required is smaller than most Western counties, and less than the total Federal land ownership in most of those counties... James your numbers agree with mine better than I would have expected since I was using ballpark numbers to one digit without googling anything. A square km is about 250 acres and I was assuming a million square km, so thats 2.5e8 acres, so with your numbers of 1000 trees per acre, thats 2.5e11 trees and at 20 tonnes of plant matter per acre year, 2.5e8 acres is 5e9 tonnes per year (a square meter of wood is close enough to a tonne for this level of calculation) to if we need 1e11 tonnes of wood, thats 20 years. So actually your googled numbers are more optimistic than my wags. Considering that wood isn't *all* carbon, my original 50-75 yrs is probably close enough. >The other, more problem is the water. Your plan would require something on the order of 10e7 acre-feet of water annually -- the high growth rate is fueled by heavy water consumption -- and you'll have to find a way to deliver this to western states that have annual fresh water resource capacity measured in a few million acre-feet per year. Of course I do agree that it does have its costs. It will require us to divert the Columbia and/or the Sacramento rivers, but that will need to happen anyway eventually, as it did with the Colorado River (that one doesn't flow to the sea anymore, it just ends near it). I did google on land areas of Utah and Wyoming. Together they are only about half a million square km, and we would need to leave some space for that school with the football team, whats it called, Brigham Young U. (Any school with a football team is an actual school and should be preserved.) So it would take perhaps 50 years by James' numbers, or a century or two by mine, or if we really think there is a hurry we could toss in Arizona and New Mexico, two more states which we are unclear on what they are actually good for, if anything. The other, more problem is the water. Your plan would require something on the order of 10e7 acre-feet of water annually -- the high growth rate is fueled by heavy water consumption -- and you'll have to find a way to deliver this to western states that have annual fresh water resource capacity measured in a few million acre-feet per year... Ja but I have already said too many times on this list that humanity must stop throwing fresh water into the sea. It looks cool and the salmon love it, but it that practice is too stunningly wasteful to even comprehend. Fresh water is valuable; we have enough of it to do some really cool stuff if we choose to do it. By sequestering carbon as logs in Arctica, we have an additional advantage of being able to reverse the carbon sink, should we later decide that it is a bad idea to draw down the CO2 level in the atmosphere (which I suspect we will eventually conclude). I imagine that a CO2 level around 500 ppm is optimal for most lifeforms, with a slightly higher oxygen level to go with it, perhaps 22 percentish. spike From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 9 22:42:45 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 23:42:45 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 03:51:48PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > I think that most hydrogen-fueled vehicles will use hydrogen generated > from electricity, yes? No, it's fossil fuels reforming, most likely onboard (because cryogenic fuel or pressurized hydrogen storage is pretty much insane in small vehicles). Why bother, I wonder, direct-alcohol fuel cells don't need no steenkin reformers (of course methanol reforms completely cleanly). > if so, then those vehicles are in effect being powered by whatever new > electrical generation Even if it's just EVs, they're ZEV locally (energy plant is high-efficiency, and exhaust scrubbed), and are more efficient than ICE overall, if properly designed (a large if, admittedly, if one considers what today passes for an EV on the road, yecch). I'm not sure anything could beat a composite-frame Li-ion EV for daily short commutes, right now. You'd recharge them overnight, or when parking at work (could be from a PV array, or from night nuke power, which is cheap). Of course, a fuel cell vehicle could actually power an entire home when not cruising. People at home while no car in the garage/lot is pretty pathological for a typical American household, anyway. > capacity must be added to the power grid. I think that this new capacity > will mostly be > coal and oil fired plants. For oil-fired plants, we gain almost nothing, > and we may actually lose. > For coal-fired plants, coal-rich countries gain some energy > independence, but only at the environmental > cost of providing the coal. From a global warming perspective coal (pure > carbon) emits the most > CO2 per unit of energy, yes? Vehicular CO2 emission is completely irrelevant in comparison to other anthropogenic greenhouse gases. > Even if the vehicle is perfectly efficient, the total environmental > efficiency must include all steps in the > energy production chain. This is of course as true for gasoline and > diesel as for hydrogen. The issue with gas cars is particulate/noxious exhaust and overall system-inherent inefficiency of an ICE. > Now I must go google for real numbers. > > In a very few cases the new electrical generators will be hydro, but > there are few remaining places > in the world for massive hydro without associated massive environmental > effects. If the new generators > are nuclear, there is a clear win. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 9 23:59:41 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 18:59:41 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 03:51:48PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>if so, then those vehicles are in effect being powered by whatever new >>electrical generation >> >> > >Even if it's just EVs, they're ZEV locally (energy plant is high-efficiency, >and exhaust scrubbed), and are more efficient than ICE overall, if properly >designed (a large if, admittedly, if one considers what today passes for an >EV on the road, yecch). > >I'm not sure anything could beat a composite-frame Li-ion EV for daily short >commutes, right now. You'd recharge them overnight, or when parking at work >(could be from a PV array, or from night nuke power, which is cheap). > > > OK, this finally begins to make qualitative sense. I don't know when/if it will make quantitative sense. Forget the "hydrogen economy" because there are far too many technical hurdles and there is far to high an infrastructure investment. Use "battery" powered EVs, which can be developed with no major new fuel infrastructure. Charge them up from the power grid, but use off-peak power. The real cost of off-peak power is a lot lower than peak power, and the real problem with using off-peak power has always been storage. But to use an EV, you already had to purchase storage. Where base power is provided by nukes or hydro, this is a huge win. Where base power is fossil fuel, it's less of a win, but still a win. In addition to all of the above, we have the possibility of shifting a higher percentage of the power from "base" generators to "peak" generators. As an increasing percentage of the power goes to EVs, the power company can depend on the ability to shut off the EV chargers temporarily to meet peak loads. This also allows the power companies to make better use of unreliable sources such as wind or solar, at least to some extent. This has little to do with fuel cells, except to the extent that a fuel cell might be a rechargeable battery. With this arrangement, the running cost of EV is driven by the cost of new base power, not new peak power. There is one piece of required fuel infrastructure: the ability to purchase "off-peak only" power in the home. But most of this infrastructure already exists. It's basically a really cheap computer that needs to be added to the home charging station. Many power companies already place signals on their power lines to temporarily deactivate equipment (hot water heaters and air conditioners) on a rotating based to lower the peaks. This signalling infrastructure can be used, probably without modification, to control the off-peak charging stations. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 00:24:25 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 16:24:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <41E1A11A.9040102@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050110002426.33544.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote:> > Oooh. Secret sources of True Dependable information that can't be > revealed because the e-v-i-l socialists will get them. Come on Mike. > > Surely you can seek how weak that line is. If one of them were not a person who is close and personal, who was threatened with loss of their post-grad position, I'd think it weak. It is, however, a fact. There is nothing that is too low for a socialist to stoop to to get their way. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 01:25:19 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:25:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41E168D1.30908@cox.net> Message-ID: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> From a productive point of view add trees and plants with economic value. Ecology has to pay its way for being more labour intensive. Black Walnut and Oak for long term (50 year ) growth. Poplar to cut wind and harvest at 3-10 years depending on your level of water and nutrient inputs. Hawthorn, buffaloberry, acacia, larch, chokecherry, raspberry, blackberry , for nutraceuticals. We've done that over the last 15 years. There is perennial wheat , hemp and other alternative additions which would turn a suburban acreage into a useful place that is still people friendly. Forages that can be mower mulched into nutraceuticals for people or pets are better than just plain grass. Of course, the factors rainfall/water and upper/lower temperatures will limit some choices. There are mycorrhizal additions to make most any soil work workable. In areas such as ours trees are limited by any competition for water by surrounding plants. You have to create your ecosystem in stages. Dan Clemmensen wrote: > BillK wrote: > >> On Sat, 8 Jan 2005 23:28:07 -0800, spike wrote: >> >> >>> Mostly growing new forests where now are grassy plains. >>> >>> >> >> >> There are already many 'plant a tree' campaigns all around the world. >> For one example, see: >> >> "In our Global ReLeaf? campaign our goal is to help people around the >> world plant one billion new trees in the next five years. In the >> United States the goal of our Trees Across America is to help get one >> tree planted for every American by 2007." >> (US population - about 300 million) >> >> >> > Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the > western US into > tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this approach is water. > As an alternative, > we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern > US: this actually makes > economic sense. We can also encourage trees rather than grass in the > suburbs of the eastern US. > My house sits on 2 acres, 1.5 acres is wooded. This was treeless > farmland until about 1950. > The natural progression moves from soft-wood through quick-growing > hardwood to slow-growing > dense hardwood. My gut feeling is that without any management at all > this progression sequesters > progressively more carbon per acre. If I desired to sequester carbon > more aggressively, I would > simply collect most of the fallen leaves annually: This is done in > denser suburbs in my area. Unfortunately, > the leaf collecting authorities then turn around and give the leaves > away to gardeners, etc., who in a > mass act of environmental abuse then encourage them to rot and release > the sequestered carbon back > into the atmosphere! Some people have no respect for the environment. > > The effective re-forestation of the US east is a very real phenomenon. > If we could achieve re-forestation > of other areas that were de-forested by civilization, we would > sequester carbon more easily than we can by > attempting to build forests in semi-arid locations. The prime > candidate areas include Greece, Rome, areas of > India and China, and much of Europe, all of which were heavily > forested before human intervention. > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 01:38:47 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 19:38:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> A solar energy satellite-based redirection project to intensify solar energy availablity in the mid and north latitudes might become a backup just in case we get our first shot of rebound cold before we get the polar caps sucessfully melted and learn to control the new more dynamic ecosystem. One of the most dangerous things today is the use of annual species for ag production. If some disaster or crisis removed the farmer from the picure worldwide for more than 2 years the seed necessary to replace the crops could be nonexistant. Moving the ag production genetics into perennial species is one way to alter the CO2 use VS creation ratio. Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the >>western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this >>approach is water. >> >> > >Water availability is synergistic with forest growth, as forests create >their own climate, but they will likely need some kick starting. For >example, I would support the flooding of Death Valley here in the US, >as well as the Great Rift Valley in eastern Africa to help alter local >weather systems. The Lake Effect from both new bodies of water (as well >as their feeding local aquifers) should help act as a seed for forest >growth. > > > >>As an alternative, >>we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern >>US: this actually makes economic sense. >> >> > >Western Americans may not realize it, but this has already occured. NH >was once 90% cleared, it is now 90% forest. This is typical of much of >the eastern states. The problem with forests really isn't in North >America. Our forest growth already absorbs our emissions (which is why >we didn't buy into Kyoto, because Europe didn't want us to be able to >count that forest sequestration, they wanted it shared with everyone). > >The real problem with forestation is in Africa and Asia. Solving this >means tying foreign aid to reforestation. Southern europe, Turkey, and >the middle east could stand some effort in this direction as well. > >Too heavy reforestation WILL plunge us into an ice age, however, as the >influence of CO2 on climate is steepest at lower concentrations. CO2's >influence follows a diminishing returns curve with increasing concentration. > >===== >Mike Lorrey >Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? >http://my.yahoo.com >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Jan 10 01:41:13 2005 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:41:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: (1/9/05 23:42) Eugen Leitl wrote: > >No, it's fossil fuels reforming, most likely onboard (because cryogenic fuel >or pressurized hydrogen storage is pretty much insane in small vehicles). > >Why bother, I wonder, direct-alcohol fuel cells don't need no steenkin >reformers (of course methanol reforms completely cleanly). The problem is that the catalyst membranes used to rip the protons off of light alcohols are prohibitively expensive for large wattage applications. Works fine in Toshiba's little cell phone fuel cells (on the order of a few mm^2), but I doubt that they've been able to manufacture more than a handful of membranes large enough for a car. IMO, DMFC catalysts represent one of the defining materials engineering problems of this decade. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Jan 10 01:49:08 2005 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:49:08 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> Message-ID: (1/9/05 18:59) Dan Clemmensen wrote: >Forget the "hydrogen economy" because there are far too many technical >hurdles and >there is far to high an infrastructure investment. Use "battery" powered >EVs, which can be >developed with no major new fuel infrastructure. Charge them up from the >power grid, >but use off-peak power. The real cost of off-peak power is a lot lower >than peak power, >and the real problem with using off-peak power has always been storage. >But to use an >EV, you already had to purchase storage. > >Where base power is provided by nukes or hydro, this is a huge win. >Where base power >is fossil fuel, it's less of a win, but still a win. > >In addition to all of the above, we have the possibility of shifting a >higher percentage of >the power from "base" generators to "peak" generators. As an increasing >percentage of the >power goes to EVs, the power company can depend on the ability to shut >off the EV chargers >temporarily to meet peak loads. This also allows the power companies to >make better use >of unreliable sources such as wind or solar, at least to some extent. > >This has little to do with fuel cells, except to the extent that a fuel >cell might be a rechargeable >battery. Don't forget that there is a huge untapped energy source in our waste stream. From biodiesel to TDP, tapping this energy remains a closed loop (since we're adding no carbon that has been deeply sequestered, i.e.out of play for more than thousands of years, back into the carbon cycle.) Until we make direct alcohol cells efficient and cheap, fuel cell technologies are going to be prey to the infrastructure problem you mention. But the hurdle isn't as high as you believe it is. There is no fundamental science necessary to be solved for this; it lies in the realm of engineering now. That doesn't mean, "expect it soon," but it is a hopeful sign. B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From brentn at freeshell.org Mon Jan 10 01:50:38 2005 From: brentn at freeshell.org (Brent Neal) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 20:50:38 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110002426.33544.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (1/9/05 16:24) Mike Lorrey wrote: >There is nothing that is too low for a socialist >to stoop to to get their way. Neither is there for a neoconservative... B -- Brent Neal Geek of all Trades http://brentn.freeshell.org "Specialization is for insects" -- Robert A. Heinlein From spike66 at comcast.net Mon Jan 10 05:27:25 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 21:27:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Extropian Agroforestry Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Trees From a productive point of view add trees and plants with economic value. ... There is perennial wheat, hemp and other alternative additions which would turn a suburban acreage into a useful place that is still people friendly... Hemp? Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? {8^D spike From hkhenson at rogers.com Mon Jan 10 05:36:35 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:36:35 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.0.20050107111531.023a7f98@pop-server.austin.rr.com > Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 11:17 AM 07/01/05 -0600, you wrote: >>This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well worth >>passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us who are >>not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the lot of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. Keith Henson From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 10 08:12:06 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:12:06 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> Keith, I am curious. What was your opinion before on such ethics (not to mention whether it is a worthwhile use of the computational resources) and what is it now? If, on either side of your chance of heart, you would subject them to a simulated Rapture, would they be on the "losing" or "winning" end of same? :-) I would be more tempted to run them through a sim where humanity destroys itself but before they die they understand utterly that their own erroneous beliefs and those of their siblings in spirit, were responsible and that their beliefs were in fact totally bogus. No need for upload though. A vivid set of induced dreams should do the trick. - s Keith Henson wrote: > At 11:17 AM 07/01/05 -0600, you wrote: > >>> This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well >>> worth passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of >>> us who are not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, >>> won't... >> > > I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the > lot of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. > > Keith Henson > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 10 14:35:14 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 15:35:14 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050110143514.GD9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 08:41:13PM -0500, Brent Neal wrote: > >Why bother, I wonder, direct-alcohol fuel cells don't need no steenkin > >reformers (of course methanol reforms completely cleanly). > > > The problem is that the catalyst membranes used to rip the > protons off of light alcohols are prohibitively expensive > for large wattage applications. Works fine in Toshiba's This is a current chemistry/engineering limitation. There's no physical reason for having expensive catalysts/high proton mobility membrane materials. > little cell phone fuel cells (on the order of a few mm^2), > but I doubt that they've been able to manufacture more > than a handful of membranes large enough for a car. How much car do you need to move a single primate? Right now an SUV is somewhere between 2 and 3 tons, which is ridiculous. > IMO, DMFC catalysts represent one of the defining materials > engineering problems of this decade. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From amara at amara.com Mon Jan 10 15:00:12 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:00:12 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Biosphere 2 For Sale Message-ID: http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/business/55319.php Biosphere 2: A little world is up for sale By Thomas Stauffer ARIZONA DAILY STAR For sale: 137,000-square-foot building with stunning views of the Catalina and Tortolita mountains through 6,500 windows. The Texas company that built and owns the Biosphere 2 Center near Oracle announced Monday that it has formally put up for sale the 3.1-acre glass terrarium and 70 other buildings on the 140-acre campus. "This is one of the most spectacular properties in Southern Arizona - if not the most spectacular - so we think it should attract some interest," said Christopher T. Bannon, general manager of Decisions Investment Corp. of Fort Worth, which owns Biosphere 2. -- ******************************************************************** Amara Graps, PhD email: amara at amara.com Computational Physics vita: ftp://ftp.amara.com/pub/resume.txt Multiplex Answers URL: http://www.amara.com/ ******************************************************************** "The best presents don't come in boxes." --Hobbes From eugen at leitl.org Mon Jan 10 15:21:33 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:21:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 07:38:47PM -0600, Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc. wrote: > A solar energy satellite-based redirection project to intensify solar > energy availablity in the mid and north latitudes Allright, what's the price tag to launch 100 kT to some 2 Mm orbit, and even assuming pure hydrogen/oxygen motors, how much havoc will this wreck to the atmosphere? I mean, really. > might become a backup just in case we get our first shot of rebound cold > before we get the polar caps sucessfully melted and > learn to control the new more dynamic ecosystem. We don't know what we're doing, but we'll just double the effort. > One of the most dangerous things today is the use of annual species for > ag production. One of the most idiotic thing is mismanagement of existing biosystems. E.g. if you try to prevent periodic burns in SoCal, you only accrue combustibles, and the eventually resulting conflagration will be much harder to control. > If some disaster or crisis removed the farmer from the picure worldwide > for more than > 2 years the seed necessary to replace the crops could be nonexistant. > Moving the ag production genetics into perennial species is one way to > alter the CO2 use VS creation ratio. Want to reduce CO2, invest in building insulation. And passive solar. What is government there for if not to enforce unpopular decisions? Giving hefty tax breaks for this should be sufficient motivation. > > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >--- Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > > > > >>Spike proposed converting a couple of otherwise-unused states in the > >>western US into tree farms, and did the math. The problem with this > >>approach is water. > >> > >> > > > >Water availability is synergistic with forest growth, as forests create > >their own climate, but they will likely need some kick starting. For > >example, I would support the flooding of Death Valley here in the US, > >as well as the Great Rift Valley in eastern Africa to help alter local > >weather systems. The Lake Effect from both new bodies of water (as well > >as their feeding local aquifers) should help act as a seed for forest > >growth. > > > > > > > >>As an alternative, > >>we can encourage the reconversion of marginal farmland in the eastern > >>US: this actually makes economic sense. > >> > >> > > > >Western Americans may not realize it, but this has already occured. NH > >was once 90% cleared, it is now 90% forest. This is typical of much of > >the eastern states. The problem with forests really isn't in North > >America. Our forest growth already absorbs our emissions (which is why > >we didn't buy into Kyoto, because Europe didn't want us to be able to > >count that forest sequestration, they wanted it shared with everyone). > > > >The real problem with forestation is in Africa and Asia. Solving this > >means tying foreign aid to reforestation. Southern europe, Turkey, and > >the middle east could stand some effort in this direction as well. > > > >Too heavy reforestation WILL plunge us into an ice age, however, as the > >influence of CO2 on climate is steepest at lower concentrations. CO2's > >influence follows a diminishing returns curve with increasing > >concentration. > > > >===== > >Mike Lorrey > >Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > >"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > >It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > >Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > >__________________________________ > >Do you Yahoo!? > >The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? > >http://my.yahoo.com > >_______________________________________________ > >extropy-chat mailing list > >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 16:14:51 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:14:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: > <>On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 07:38:47PM -0600, Extropian Agroforestry > Ventures Inc. wrote: > <>A solar energy satellite-based redirection project to intensify solar > energy availablity in the mid and north latitudes > > >Allright, what's the price tag to launch 100 kT to some 2 Mm orbit, and even >assuming pure hydrogen/oxygen motors, how much havoc will this wreck to the >atmosphere? > >I mean, really. > > Perhaps moon based manufacturing launched by mass driver or space elavator. This would be a good reason to get manned lunar bases built and operating. The first uses could beam energy back to the moon for manufacturing/smelting and become a resource If required later on for earth based applications such as climate modifications. > <>might become a backup just in case we get our first shot of rebound > cold > before we get the polar caps sucessfully melted and > learn to control the new more dynamic ecosystem. > > >We don't know what we're doing, but we'll just double the effort. > > The rate of knowlege about climate mechanisms will continue to appreciate over the time required to develop and deploy a modification system. If computational capacity continues to increase, the systems required to model global environment modulation simulations will be developed in the next 10 -15 years. > > > >>One of the most dangerous things today is the use of annual species for >>ag production. >> >> > >One of the most idiotic thing is mismanagement of existing biosystems. > >E.g. if you try to prevent periodic burns in SoCal, you only accrue >combustibles, and the eventually resulting conflagration will be much harder >to control. > > This mismanagement is more an economic issue than environmental. Excess combustibles for example would not accrue if the species were harvested on a rotational basis. If human labour is unjustified, then perhaps John Deere might develop prototype robotic harvesters under DARPA funding which would have eventual civilian biomass harvesting applications. The entire ag economy is driven by economics that only plan 2-5 years into the future....given the BSE experience here in Canada I should have said 1 year in advance because the ag economy simply does not plan for change. > <>If some disaster or crisis removed the farmer from the picure worldwide > for more than > 2 years the seed necessary to replace the crops could be nonexistant. > Moving the ag production genetics into perennial species is one way to > alter the CO2 use VS creation ratio. > > >Want to reduce CO2, invest in building insulation. And passive solar. > >What is government there for if not to enforce unpopular decisions? Giving >hefty tax breaks for this should be sufficient motivation. > > > This last round of energy price increases once worked entirely through the economy should produce a new round of conservation measures. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 17:21:01 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:21:01 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net><20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> Message-ID: <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging station? From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 17:22:35 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:22:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] (no subject) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050110172235.47949.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Brian Lee wrote: > The economist is pretty good example of mainstream > US media Despite being based in the UK? From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 17:26:41 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 09:26:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050107150443.87300.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110172641.50683.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people > do it all the time. > It is only the public perception that it can't be > done that creates a > perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, > as the public is > also convinced that machine guns are illegal. > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > specially checked > luggage. "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for the past few years. And if there are any special procedures required for a certain item, that's another inconvenience. From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 10 17:45:28 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:45:28 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110113914.01a059b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> > >Perhaps moon based manufacturing launched by mass driver or space elavator. I'd been under the impression that a lunar elevator wouldn't work; it'd be too long or something. However I see another view at http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/lunar_space_elevator.html M5, which he calculates would only weigh 6,800 kg for a full cable that would support a lifting capacity of 200 kg at the base. This is well within the capabilities of the most powerful rockets supplied by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Arianespace. One launch is [all] it takes to put an elevator on the Moon. And once the elevator was installed, you could start reinforcing it with additional materials, like glass and boron, which could be manufactured on the Moon > etc. Less orbital junk, harder for crazies to damage it, run it with robots, etc. Damien Broderick From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 18:22:17 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:22:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > And why is it that bright people on this list have > mostly only harped > on points they disagree with or that play to their > favored positions > while missing the urgency of the inmates having > considerable influence > in the earth's only remaining superpower? I would > think there are more > important matters at hand. Or is this sort of > response just > diversion in the face of that which one feels > powerless to change? You may have nailed it with that last sentence. What can we do, to subvert the power of the theists? One wonders if a "God through technology" meme might fly. That is, connect the belief that "God will provide for His chosen" with the abundance that technologically advanced areas - both nations, and people within nations (as in those who embrace and develop tech, as opposed to luddites) - tend to have. Implication: accepting technology, and humanity's power over nature, *is* accepting God's plan for His creations (thus, even those who don't believe in God can be seen as doing His work). Further implication: "Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as viewed by different people with different takes on it ("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the same event). Might this convert some of the fundies to our side? Possible problem: one of the appeals of luddite religions is that they excuse, even praise, intellectual sloth. Embracing new technologies requires intellectual rigor. If this causes excess discomfort, this would cause people to reject the meme, and possibly seek to actively counter it (say, by becoming even more luddite and excusing it by claiming that technology is anti-God). From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 10 18:39:07 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:39:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 10:22 AM 1/10/2005 -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: >Further implication: >"Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as >viewed by different people with different takes on it >("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to >describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the >same event). Aargh! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological singularity is just what is expected to happen when specific technologies attain a certain degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is a mythical state of spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian belief system that includes a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus to judge the just and the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist foolishness. DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 18:53:15 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 10:53:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050110172641.50683.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It's not the public's fault they are asses, they are the victims of public educational mediocrity, (which is to say education in the overall sense of the word). One thing I've never understood is: if by any objective measure the K-12 school system is so bad then why force the poor little wretches to school at all? Why not let them stay at home to be homeschooled, or just learn a skill/craft? Life is still quite short so why send children to schools where the illiteracy rate is unacceptably high & the children pick on each other? Lets have vouchers not only for private schools but also for homeshooling --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people > do it all the time. > It is only the public perception that it can't be > done that creates a > perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, > as the public is > also convinced that machine guns are illegal. > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > specially checked > luggage. "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for the past few years. And if there are any special procedures required for a certain item, that's another inconvenience. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! ? Try it today! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 19:11:58 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:11:58 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are the parents themselves..... ----- Original Message ----- From: Ned Late To: ExI chat list Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic It's not the public's fault they are asses, they are the victims of public educational mediocrity, (which is to say education in the overall sense of the word). One thing I've never understood is: if by any objective measure the K-12 school system is so bad then why force the poor little wretches to school at all? Why not let them stay at home to be homeschooled, or just learn a skill/craft? Life is still quite short so why send children to schools where the illiteracy rate is unacceptably high & the children pick on each other? Lets have vouchers not only for private schools but also for homeshooling --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > Flying with a gun is not inconvenient. Many people > do it all the time. > It is only the public perception that it can't be > done that creates a > perception of inconvenience. The public is an ass, > as the public is > also convinced that machine guns are illegal. > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > specially checked > luggage. "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for the past few years. And if there are any special procedures required for a certain item, that's another inconvenience. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 19:21:15 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:21:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050110192115.34617.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological > singularity is just > what is expected to happen when specific > technologies attain a certain > degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is > a mythical state of > spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian > belief system that includes > a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus > to judge the just and > the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist > foolishness. DON'T GET > THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT > THE UNIVERSE!! It's not the universe I want to short-circuit. It's the anti-technology ideas. Besides, who says that the two actually have to be the same? I'm just suggesting convincing some Christians that they are the same, to get them on our side. What happens after that...well, once they are on our side, they might be willing to interpret the Singularity (if and when it happens) as Rapture even if they don't actually have any evidence of the religious trappings occurring, no? From megao at sasktel.net Mon Jan 10 19:25:56 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:25:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> How wiil educators handle smart-drug enabled kids who come to school to get the information acquisition done in say 6 years instead of the ordinary 12. Could kids spend 6 years in compulsory grade school academics and the other 6 in University level work all funded under the public education umbrella? An extra 6 years of useful life in kids 20's is thus created. Will law demand dumbing down to norm? If enhanced learners are kicked out of school for using mental performance enhancers and opt for home schooling will drug testing be mandated? From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 19:27:13 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:27:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. It's not so much a question of school financing to me, it's treating the children as human. Rather than be sentenced to thirteen years of bad schooling I might rather be executed, thirteen years is a long time (think of 1992-2005). Look, even if Scott Peterson will be on death row for thirteen years, at least he gets three hots and a cot; he gets a private cell plus maybe cable. > Because in many cases the only things dumber than > the educators are the parents themselves..... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 19:28:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Fuel cell vehicles arriving in 2005 In-Reply-To: <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050110192859.22532.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > So who wants to start work developing a home > solar/wind combo re-charging > station? Home solar/wind combo can be purchased. So can home recharging stations (though the exact model depends on the make of car you're getting). Installation of both typically includes wiring it to your house's electrical system, such that either element will still operate without the other (say, if you remove the other element, or it somehow becomes disabled). In short, it's already been developed. There is some room for development to bring down the price/bring up the efficiency, but that's different. From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 19:31:20 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:31:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050110193120.99233.qmail@web30008.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Wouldn't be surprising, would it? Good argument for abortion :-/ > If enhanced learners are kicked out of school for > using mental > performance enhancers > and opt for home schooling will drug testing be > mandated? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 19:49:15 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:49:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > How wiil educators handle smart-drug enabled kids > who come to school to > get the information > acquisition done in say 6 years instead of the > ordinary 12. One doesn't even need to look to the future to see that. Look up "gifted children" today: kids who, for whatever reason, really can absorb the information years faster. Much of the time, they are given the info at the same rate, leading to extreme boredom and resulting problems. (Some are even misdiagnosed as learning disabled or ADHD, because they don't pay attention in class - because they don't see a reason to pay attention when they can solve the problems so easily, for example, but that often gets left out of the diagnosis.) Some such kids do get to skip grades, so they get out in less than 12 years - but some of those children have reported social-based unhappiness with this solution, e.g. when one's grade-peers are eligible for driver's licenses but oneself is not, or problems with being at different stages of puberty. (Disclaimer: I myself skipped a grade, and I never ran into problems like that. Then again, I get the impression my social life was not the norm - for instance, I was one of the few at my school who ignored cliques and made friends in all groups.) From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 20:00:29 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110200029.49707.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK schools better than US counterparts at that time? >Then again, I get the impression my social > life was not the norm - for instance, I was one of > the > few at my school who ignored cliques and made > friends > in all groups.) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Mon Jan 10 20:06:28 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:06:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110200029.49707.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110200629.37849.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> (I forget if this will be my sixth or seventh post today; either way, I'd better stop here.) --- Ned Late wrote: > Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK > schools > better than US counterparts at that time? Nope. Palo Alto, California. Silicon Valley, USA. From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 10 20:14:42 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:14:42 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <41E2E232.2020601@mac.com> Kevin Freels wrote: > Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are > the parents themselves..... Agreed BUT at least in that case the damage is only to their own offspring instead of mass conditioning everyone whose parents can't afford private school AFTER paying for the mass youth indoctrination camps. - s From sjatkins at mac.com Mon Jan 10 20:25:25 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:25:25 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110192115.34617.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110192115.34617.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E2E4B5.7010709@mac.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Damien Broderick wrote: > > >>It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological >>singularity is just >>what is expected to happen when specific >>technologies attain a certain >>degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is >>a mythical state of >>spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian >>belief system that includes >>a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus >>to judge the just and >>the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist >>foolishness. DON'T GET >>THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT >>THE UNIVERSE!! >> >> > >It's not the universe I want to short-circuit. It's >the anti-technology ideas. > >Besides, who says that the two actually have to be the >same? I'm just suggesting convincing some Christians >that they are the same, to get them on our side. What >happens after that...well, once they are on our side, >they might be willing to interpret the Singularity (if >and when it happens) as Rapture even if they don't >actually have any evidence of the religious trappings >occurring, no? > > That would be lying. Why do that when the case is already quite strong for all who are honest? On the technological side we have the real possibility of cures for all disease including aging itself, indefinitely long lifespans, abundance undreamt of for all and most any other "milk and honey" in the sweet by-and-by stuff that most western religions say awaits you after death. For all the Christians and other believers who really are filled with compassion for humanity and caring for their own it is obvious that this "great gift" must be welcomed with both hands and with songs of praise on their lips. If they wanted to dress things up as something like "God has heard our prayers and sent the answer in the form of sufficient intelligence to build technology to meet every need and dry every tear" or whatever then let them do that, not us. If they want to pretend that the second coming of Christ is the coming of an FAI or whatever then I am sure they will do so. If the "new heaven and new earth" is what happens after Singularity, upload or whatever in their minds then great. But we have no business claiming this is so and it muddies up our thinking and understanding to fool around that way. At least it muddied up mine when I toyed with such. I disagree with Damien on the entire fundamentalist package deal being essential to what Rapture means though. Christians are infinitely flexible in finding "other interpretations" thatn Biblical inerrancy, a 6000 year old earth and other such pure nut-case idiocy. - samantha From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 20:25:19 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:25:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <41E2E232.2020601@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050110202519.56532.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It could be now that corporal punishments (except for punishments administered by students to each other) have been ended, mental caning is the new norm. --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > Agreed BUT at least in that case the damage is only > to their own > offspring instead of mass conditioning everyone > whose parents can't > afford private school AFTER paying for the mass > youth indoctrination camps. > - s __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:43:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:43:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050110172641.50683.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110214354.35559.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > > Flying, with a gun, merely becomes one more piece of > > specially checked luggage. > > "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I don't > fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only for > the past few years. And if there are any special > procedures required for a certain item, that's another > inconvenience. That is what you get for tolerating an unconstitutional FAA. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:50:59 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050110215059.15520.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 10:22 AM 1/10/2005 -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > >Further implication: > >"Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as > >viewed by different people with different takes on it > >("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to > >describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the > >same event). > > Aargh! > NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! > > It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological singularity is > just what is expected to happen when specific technologies attain a > certain degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is a > mythical state of spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian > belief system that includes a world 6000 years old, the physical > return of Jesus to judge the just and the damnable, and other > literalist fundamentalist foolishness. DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES > CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! Rapture is a mythical state of *some* kind of transcendance that is described by many more than just Christian theology, nor does it depend on an Earth created in 4004 BC. Refusing to hijack the rapture meme is literally refusing to take necessary action in supplanting the prescientific mythocracy. Just as replacing Christmas with Newtonmas (as Christmas replaced the Roman Saturnalia), supplanting christian theological precepts with rational transhumanist ones is necessary to win the memetic war. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:53:17 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:53:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050110185315.41110.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050110215317.72998.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > It's not the public's fault they are asses, they are the victims of > public educational mediocrity, (which is to say education in the > overall sense of the word). One thing I've never understood is: if by > any objective measure the K-12 school system is so bad then why force > the poor little wretches to school at all? Why not let them stay at > home to be homeschooled, or just learn a skill/craft? Life is still > quite short so why send children to schools where the illiteracy > rate is unacceptably high & the children pick on each other? > Lets have vouchers not only for private schools but also for > homeshooling Fine by me. Conversely I'd offer property tax breaks to parents who homeschool. The average cost of homeschooling a child is $95.00 per year, according to the US Dept of Ed's own study. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 10 21:55:08 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:55:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <024001c4f748$4213b3f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050110215509.36372.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are > the parents themselves..... Which isn't hard to achieve, considering that teachers have the lowest average SAT scores of any profession requiring a 4 year degree.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 21:25:09 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:25:09 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tsunami surfing In-Reply-To: <41E094B1.6050507@neopax.com> References: <41E094B1.6050507@neopax.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110132436.028d52f8@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> A real 'croc' of a story here.... >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/4153109.stm > >A German, the manager of a quarry, wrote his recollections of being swept >away. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 21:48:38 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:48:38 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments -GlobalEnvironmentCitizenAward In-Reply-To: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f61c$c72da0f0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110134150.028997b0@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Over post limit, so pasted together: ==================================== Minor Quibble: Wood is polymerized sugar, around 40% by weight Carbon. While we are on this nit, CO2 has 12 + 16 + 16 mol wt 44, or 27% carbon. Case of mutually cancelling errors here... >Wood is nearly all carbon (assuming one digit precision), so about >1e11 cubic meters of wood must be produced, bundled and >sunk in the sea or squirreled away in Antarctica somewhere. I once saw a space photo, of sub saharan Africa, where 100 km^2 was fenced off from grazing, and much more vegetation present. How to protect 10^6 km^2 of forest for the 100 years for it to come mature and keep it so is a real challenge...... (oops, just solved problem: forest Texas!) ============================================== I saw a photo of Liquid CO2 - in a beaker at 1000 meters depth. Many applications trap their CO2 and either put into old gas wells and the like, or are considering packaging and putting on the sea bottoms. Kinds skips the area and time needed to do via trees.... Spike: If the wood does not get waterlogged enough to sink, >then we could allow it to drift in the Pacific >current until it gets into the Southern hemisphere, >at which time the bundles could perhaps be towed >to Antarctica, where they would be pulled from >the water and hauled inland, where it would take >centuries to decay, for the organisms which are >adapted for such tasks would surely be unable to >survive in that bitterly cold climate. ==================================================== I recall an ice age theory which had the Arctic Ocean warm, and its precip on the continents made the ice sheets. Warm, precipitious icy winters, becoming all winter year round. > Global warming is causing the ice cap to melt, which is releasing > > tremendous amounts of fresh water into the north atlantic, thus > > increasing the buoyancy of the surface water. Increased buoyancy may > > prevent the current from sinking into the depths and moving > > southward, thus shutting down the cycle in the north atlantic. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 22:04:15 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:04:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110113914.01a059b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050109180628.89282.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <41E1DCA7.4000006@sasktel.net> <20050110152133.GI9221@leitl.org> <41E2A9FB.3020708@sasktel.net> <6.1.1.1.0.20050110113914.01a059b0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110140127.02903148@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I recall from L5 days some diagrams of L5 based orbits - they are huge, look like kidneybeans 100,000 Km in width. This suggests the forces which maintain L5 orbits are quite small, and if big counterweight is used, the orbits are still large with a thread attached to the moon. I prefer the massdriver approach, well studied in the 80s. At 09:45 AM 1/10/2005, you wrote: >>Perhaps moon based manufacturing launched by mass driver or space elavator. > >I'd been under the impression that a lunar elevator wouldn't work; it'd be >too long or something. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 22:09:41 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:09:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41E2D6C4.6000205@sasktel.net> <20050110194915.43487.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110140645.028e7308@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> I learned early on as a gifted child that the prejudice towards same is as bad as racism. Lotsa money for the losers, ignore the winners. Once I saw this, public education lost me totally. I never ever vote for edu bond issues, which make taxes, but does not help the gifted. Now shall I rant: Compulsory uplifting for all! >One doesn't even need to look to the future to see >that. Look up "gifted children" today: kids who, for >whatever reason, really can absorb the information >years faster. Much of the time, they are given the >info at the same rate, leading to extreme boredom and >resulting problems. ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From harara at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 22:16:58 2005 From: harara at sbcglobal.net (Hara Ra) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 14:16:58 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110141110.028de298@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Ditto, posting limit: ===================== Re forced Techno-Rapture: Recall the I Ching, which in one of its hexagrams points out that if you "fight evil" there is a terrible tendency to do the same as they do "in the name of good" and are therefore not any different. (I can see it now, Bibles with installed Singualarized AIs, which "rapturize" the reader. Or CDs with the Extropian Principles which "extropize" the viewer. hmmmm. ExtroBaptism, anyone?) >S sez: Keith, > >I am curious. What was your opinion before on such ethics (not to mention >whether it is a worthwhile use of the computational resources) and what is >it now? > >Keith Henson: > >>>>This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well >>>>worth passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us >>>>who are not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... >> >>I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the lot >>of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. ================================= Naah, just your brain pzzzzzzzzzt! >Aargh! > >NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! >DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! > >Damien Broderick ================================== = Hara Ra (aka Gregory Yob) = = harara at sbcglobal.net = = Alcor North Cryomanagement = = Alcor Advisor to Board = = 831 429 8637 = ================================== From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 10 23:56:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:56:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cusp: Robert A. Metzger Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110175452.01b245b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue403/books.html I haven't read it, but it sounds fun. Damien Broderick From fortean1 at mindspring.com Tue Jan 11 00:05:46 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:05:46 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning Message-ID: <41E3185A.C39FD058@mindspring.com> Terry W. Colvin Voice: [520]538-5392 U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program FAX: [520]538-5435 Air Tasking Orders [Desert Storm I] DSN: 879-5392 Fort Huachuca (Cochise County), Arizona USA "No editor ever likes the way a story tastes unless he pees in it first." -Mark Twain You wrote: > > Just in the last week, I investigated a report similar to the telephone event. > Near Walka, some 300km from here, a woman reported ball lightning in her house > during a thunder storm. She said it came in through a CLOSED window, bounced > on the carpet and then remained stationary on an extension power point for a > couple of seconds causing it to burst into flames and emit a couple of bangs. > It then rolled up the side of a foam box, melting the surface and burning the > hair on the head of a joey (young kangaroo) that was in the box before rolling > into the kitchen an becoming lost to view. The woman was at this time more > concerned with putting out the electrical fire and with the joey. The ball was > about 15 cm across. There are several inconsistencies in her story (like the > joey having NO burnt hair on its head), but there was certainly a fire within > the electrical extension. As there was undoubtedly a nearby lightning strike > on power lines (witnessed by a neighbour) and damage to telephone lines locally, > (including her own phone line requiring repair) it was perhaps possible that > the ball actually started in the electrical extension, with the initial > flash being seen as a streak through the woman's thick glasses, as it was > initially seen out the corner of her eye. The fire in the extension was > possibly due to the arcing across dust which was certainly present within it. > (During this trip, I broke my cam shaft. Looks like a "new" engine) > > Worldwide, there is a consistency of reports in thunderstorms, although the > Japanese have a surfeit of clear weather sightings. Perhaps this is > investigator bias. I don't understand the theories that attempt to explain > ball lightning, so I won't try to explain them. One Japanese group have > created sustainable plasma balls (not necessarily formed in the same way > as ball lightning). The leading investigator in this group believes they may > be related to "true" crop circles (should there be such) and had a close > association with Terence Meaden (see Schnabel's "Round in Circles"). > > Cheers, Rob Please put me on your email list for any reports of Ball Lightning. I've been studying the phenomenon for 23 years now [as of 1995]. My company is doing R&D in this area. Best Regards, Charles Cagle Chief Technical Officer Singularity Technologies, Inc, 1640 Oak Grove Road, N.W. Salem, OR 97304 Ph/Fx 503/362-7781 -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jan 11 00:26:23 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:26:23 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050110215059.15520.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110215059.15520.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E31D2F.70702@mac.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: > >Rapture is a mythical state of *some* kind of transcendance that is >described by many more than just Christian theology, nor does it depend >on an Earth created in 4004 BC. Refusing to hijack the rapture meme is >literally refusing to take necessary action in supplanting the >prescientific mythocracy. Just as replacing Christmas with Newtonmas >(as Christmas replaced the Roman Saturnalia), supplanting christian >theological precepts with rational transhumanist ones is necessary to >win the memetic war. > > > An interesting point. However, in this particular case of the Rapture, the subject is so heavily overlaid with fundamentalist Christian memesets that I have difficulty seeing how this can lead to anything but confusion and accepting some pretty horrific package deals. You don't supplant prescientific myths by saying you have a better form of the same thing. This would be equivalent to claiming that chemistry was actually modern alchemy and astronomy nothing but scientific astrology. Redefining the meaning of a holiday is a far simpler task. That we should do the latter does not make the former doable or recommended. - samantha From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 00:29:38 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:29:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.1.20050110140645.028e7308@pop.sbcglobal.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111002938.57184.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I know i'm over limit for posting, but this is v. important to me. What would you say to children being allowed to specialize? Now they might end up too narrow-focused yet would you rather have children who are illiterate or children who are somewhat narrow-minded? Specialization might be worthy as a trade-off. If public schools taught each child one subject well, a subject the child had been tested to show he or she had greater proficiency at, and had the parents or tutors teach the child the other subjects, then public education might be effective (since too many families, again, want school to be a baby sitting service). And/or we could have private schools augmented by homeschooling & tutors. Let's not blame teacher's unions excessively, the parents have the ultimate responsibility. >Now shall I rant: Compulsory uplifting for all! --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgc at cox.net Tue Jan 11 00:39:46 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:39:46 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net><20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> Kevin Freels wrote: >So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging >station? > > > OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester carbon as they grow. Harvest the fallen leaves in the fall into big leaf piles. Convert the leaves into methanol and/or methane as needed. Any extra leaves can be sequestered to given to folks who have no trees. Convert the methanol and/or methane into electricity to charge the EV and run the home electrical system Use the process heat to heat/cool the house. The major advantage of this approach is that you can implement it locally, with no infrastructure. The major disadvantages are two-fold: 1) high capital cost. 2) high complexity. OK, how many tons of leaves do we need to do this? Research the following: for each, identify the capital costs and the conversion factor. 1) Leaves-> methanol/methane 2) methane-> electricity 3) methanol->electricity 4) Acres (eastern US) ->leaves. 5) electricity->road miles. Note: those of us with private septic systems can generate additional methane. From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 11 01:43:55 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:43:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > It's not so much a question of school financing to me, > it's treating the children as human. I am curious about what may be your solution - how to treat children *and* adults as human? Olga From dgc at cox.net Tue Jan 11 02:44:32 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:44:32 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <41E33D90.5030007@cox.net> Olga Bourlin wrote: >From: "Ned Late" > > > >>Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap >>it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. >> >> > >Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* The >1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > > Furthermore, even if the educational system were imparting nothing of value directly, the kids still get a great deal of education from each other. Perhaps we should fire all of the administrators and teachers and replace them with proctors. Send the kids to school, and let them interact as they wish, subject only to rules of behavior enforced by the proctors. My kids (a senior at UVA, a sophomore at McGill, and a high school freshman) all seemed to get more out of recess and extracurricular activities than they did from classes. They are all voracious readers, though. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 11 03:36:30 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:36:30 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050110192714.50618.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com><009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> <41E33D90.5030007@cox.net> Message-ID: <001001c4f78e$bdac0300$9ceafb44@kevin> Perhaps we > should fire all > of the administrators and teachers and replace them with proctors. Send > the kids to school, > and let them interact as they wish, subject only to rules of behavior > enforced by the proctors. > This is actually a great idea. Turn them loose with a library and Google. I wonder if there would be a legal and ethical way to test this and see how it works? From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Jan 11 03:32:56 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:32:56 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <41E238D6.8010202@mac.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:12 AM 10/01/05 -0800, you wrote: >Keith, > >I am curious. What was your opinion before on such ethics (not to mention >whether it is a worthwhile use of the computational resources) That uploading people without their consent was unethical. >and what is it now? It is still unethical, but perhaps justified considering what they want to do to the rest of us. >If, on either side of your chance of heart, you would subject them to a >simulated Rapture, would they be on the "losing" or "winning" end of same? :-) Hmm. I thought "god's side" winning was part of the story. >I would be more tempted to run them through a sim where humanity destroys >itself but before they die they understand utterly that their own >erroneous beliefs and those of their siblings in spirit, were responsible >and that their beliefs were in fact totally bogus. Not worth it. Bad enough to give them want they claim to want. I suspect the operators would have to mess with their boredom threshold to keep them from going mad after a simulated thousand years of singing around a simulated thrown of God. >No need for upload though. A vivid set of induced dreams should do the trick. I think having a bunch of them in the throws of induced rapture dreams flailing around in reality isn't a good idea. In fact, that's much the problem we have now. Keith Henson >- s > >Keith Henson wrote: > >>At 11:17 AM 07/01/05 -0600, you wrote: >> >>>>This is a chilling speech, worth reading, and in my judgment, well >>>>worth passing on. Unfortunately, it will only be heeded by those of us >>>>who are not "believers." The ones who need to understand it, won't... >> >>I must admit it has changed my mind about the ethics of uploading the lot >>of these loons and subjecting them to a simulated rapture. >> >>Keith Henson >> >>_______________________________________________ >>extropy-chat mailing list >>extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >>http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Jan 11 03:37:19 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:37:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110123031.01a49d80@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> <20050110182217.12747.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110223528.032f22c0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:39 PM 10/01/05 -0600, you wrote: >At 10:22 AM 1/10/2005 -0800, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > >>Further implication: >>"Singularity" and "Rapture" are the same thing, as >>viewed by different people with different takes on it >>("Rapture" is a religious take; "Singularity" tries to >>describe it in more scientific terms, but it's the >>same event). > >Aargh! > >NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! > >It is NOT the same event. A convergent technological singularity is just >what is expected to happen when specific technologies attain a certain >degree of complexity, power and speed. `Rapture' is a mythical state of >spiritual transcendence rising from a Christian belief system that >includes a world 6000 years old, the physical return of Jesus to judge the >just and the damnable, and other literalist fundamentalist foolishness. >DON'T GET THESE MEMETIC WIRES CROSSED, OR YOU'LL SHORT-CIRCUIT THE UNIVERSE!! Yeah, but don't forget that the singularity would give the technogeeks the power to grant a simulated rapture to the rapture freaks. Keith Henson From hkhenson at rogers.com Tue Jan 11 03:40:01 2005 From: hkhenson at rogers.com (Keith Henson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:40:01 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050110200629.37849.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050110200029.49707.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110223930.032f2050@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> At 12:06 PM 10/01/05 -0800, you wrote: >(I forget if this will be my sixth or seventh post >today; either way, I'd better stop here.) > >--- Ned Late wrote: > > Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK > > schools > > better than US counterparts at that time? > >Nope. Palo Alto, California. Silicon Valley, USA. What year? (My daughter graduated there in 2000) Keith Henson From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jan 11 03:59:37 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:59:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cusp: Robert A. Metzger In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110175452.01b245b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050110175452.01b245b8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41E34F29.2020402@mac.com> Ah, the hard stuff. My one-click finger twitches and the dose is on its way. This one really does look good. Thanks. -s Damien Broderick wrote: > Singularity comprehensible and utilize it as a trope without rendering > narrative coherence null and void.> > > http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue403/books.html > > I haven't read it, but it sounds fun. > > Damien Broderick > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jan 11 04:01:45 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 20:01:45 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050110215509.36372.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01c4f792$47ae7d00$6401a8c0@mtrainier> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Because in many cases the only things dumber than the educators are > the parents themselves... ...Which isn't hard to achieve, considering that teachers have the lowest average SAT scores of any profession requiring a 4 year degree.... ===== Mike Lorrey Consider a transition that has been taking place over the past 20 years or so. Children are being transformed from little people into little liability bombs, armed with delicate impact fuses. One little mistake in their handling and they explode violently, sending litigious shrapnel in all directions, with deadly accurate aim at whoever has the most money. These legal explosions can only be survived by those who are the most judgement-proof: the liability heavy armor, the lawsuit tanks, the very poor, those not worth the effort for the pants that could be sued off of them. Anyone who owns much of anything becomes a lawsuit pinata, inviting all (especially children) to take a legal whack. Anyone who owns much of anything is strongly advised to flee in terror from anyone under 18. Is it any wonder that society is selecting the SAT low- scorers to be the elementary school teachers? We choose teachers from those who have few professional options, the utterly destitute, then keep them that way, so that they remain judgement-proof thruoghout their entire careers. Is this any way to run a world? spike From megao at sasktel.net Tue Jan 11 05:03:18 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:03:18 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> References: <41E19964.3070008@cox.net> <20050109224244.GU9221@leitl.org> <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> Message-ID: <41E35E16.70104@sasktel.net> Urilizing a robotic tree pruning system that runs on a combination of electric/methanol fuel cells and extracting valuable bioactives from the tree biomass would make even an energy in = energy out marginal biomass productivity system economically viable. Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Kevin Freels wrote: > >> So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo >> re-charging >> station? >> >> >> > OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester > carbon as they grow. > > Harvest the fallen leaves in the fall into big leaf piles. Convert the > leaves into methanol and/or methane > as needed. Any extra leaves can be sequestered to given to folks who > have no trees. > > Convert the methanol and/or methane into electricity to charge the EV > and run the home electrical system > > Use the process heat to heat/cool the house. > > The major advantage of this approach is that you can implement it > locally, with no > infrastructure. > > The major disadvantages are two-fold: > 1) high capital cost. > 2) high complexity. > > OK, how many tons of leaves do we need to do this? Research the > following: for each, identify > the capital costs and the conversion factor. > > 1) Leaves-> methanol/methane > 2) methane-> electricity > 3) methanol->electricity > 4) Acres (eastern US) ->leaves. > 5) electricity->road miles. > > Note: those of us with private septic systems can generate additional > methane. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 11 05:44:19 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:44:19 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] They Were ... Cheerleading? Message-ID: <000d01c4f7a0$98f13870$6600a8c0@brainiac> Yes, and here's even more evidence we are living in a Jerry Springer universe: http://reuters.myway.com/article/20050110/2005-01-10T194744Z_01_N10209253_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-IRAQ-ABUSE-DC.html Olga From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 06:36:00 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:36:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] CSO Online: Securing the Post-Human Future Message-ID: <470a3c520501102236690b7bfb@mail.gmail.com> In the last few months the CIO Magazine published a good review of James Hughes' Citizen Cyborg and a good article on transhumanism. A few days ago the CSO Online ("The Resource for Security Executives", voted 2004 ASBPE Magazine of the Year and Winner - Best New Web Publication) published another good article on "Securing the Post-Human Future", beginning with "CSOs will very likely live to see the day when human brains are easily augmentable through an array of knowledge implants, apps and Wi-Fi capabilities". Both CIO Magazine and CSO Online are examples of mainstream business journals for IT professionals open to current ideas on human enhancement. The article quotes, of course, Fukuyama's recent Foreign Policy statement on transhumanism as the single idea currently posing the greatest threat to humanity, and continues with a good summary of some transhumanist ideas: "Transhumanism might be described as the technology of advanced individual enhancement. While it includes physical modifications (diamondoid teeth, self-styling hair, autocleaning ears, nanotube bones, lipid metabolizers, polymer muscles), most of the interest in the technology focuses on the integration of brains and computers - especially brains and networks. Sample transhumanist apps could include cell phone implants (which would allow virtual telepathy), memory backups and augmenters, thought recorders, reflex accelerators, collaborative consciousness (whiteboarding in the brain), and a very long list of thought-controlled actuators. Ultimately, the technology could extend to the uploading and downloading of entire minds in and out of host bodies, providing a self-consciousness that, theoretically, would have no definitive nor necessary end. That is, immortality, of a sort. While some of these abilities are clearly quite far off, others are already attracting researchers (see "Making the Head Case," Page 52), and none are known (at the moment at least) to be impossible. Fukuyama obviously felt the technology is close enough at hand to write a book on it". In the rest of the article the author avoids value judgements and adopts a matter-of-fact approach: these things will come, and perhaps sooner than we think despite Fukuyama's objections. He focuses mainly on neurotechnology and the future enterprise secutity problems associated with brains running on a network: "In other words, it looks as though the transhumanist era is going to present a host of problems for which there are no immediate solutions. Consider, for example, the extremely vexing problem of neurosecurity". All links are in the online version of this post at: http://transhumanism.org/index.php/WTA/inthenews/cso-online-securing-the-post-human-future/ I also posted it to Always On: http://www.alwayson-network.com/comments.php?id=7879_0_5_0_C to stimulate sone interest in a mainstream community. From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jan 11 09:27:05 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:27:05 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> References: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> Message-ID: <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:39:46PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > Kevin Freels wrote: > > >So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging > >station? > > OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester > carbon as they grow. Better: insulate your house. Put good passive absorbers on the roof for heating your water. Build a winter garden, and other means for passive solar heating. Use efficient burners. Use hydrogen-rich fossil fuels (methane), or renewables (there are now new clean wood powder burners, etc). Use energy-efficient household machines. This gives the best ROI. Everything beyond that is going to cost you more, and give you increasingly diminishing returns (some local variations like geothermia and microhydro or subsidized PV ignored on purpose). Planting trees is a good idea on its own, though. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 11 10:02:36 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:02:36 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wikipedia Faces Growing Pains Message-ID: <470a3c5205011102025fb1e7e0@mail.gmail.com> This interesting Wired article raises difficult questions ("lack of official vetting is central to many of the questions facing Wikipedia today"). I am sure there can be good answers but they should be elaborated and written. "Since its birth in 2001, Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia from the Wikimedia Foundation, has grown to include more than 1.1 million entries. The English-language version alone has nearly 444,000 entries, all written for no compensation by members of the Wikipedia community. The project has grown to such an extent that it is sometimes mentioned as an alternative to other resources like the Encyclopaedia Britannica. But with that growth, questions about how credible Wikipedia is, whether it can be respected by the academic community and how it might change are more important than ever. And as Wikipedia continues to expand, at about 7 percent per month, many wonder if the project can stay true to its core principles of openness and co-creation. " http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66210,00.html From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jan 11 11:27:33 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:27:33 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 09:27:25PM -0800, spike wrote: > Hemp? Yes. The major source of plant fiber, before the wood cellulose industry (and fledgling plastics; DuPont) started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign (in early 1930s). You haven't heard? > Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? Hemp crop for fiber/seed/oil use has very low THC content. Very different animal from those high-maintenance crops (Alaskan Thunderfuck et al.). -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 11 12:33:56 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 07:33:56 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Eugen Leitl wrote: > On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 09:27:25PM -0800, spike wrote: > > > Hemp? > > Yes. The major source of plant fiber, before the wood cellulose industry (and > fledgling plastics; DuPont) started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign > (in early 1930s). You haven't heard? > > > Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? > > Hemp crop for fiber/seed/oil use has very low THC content. Very different > animal from those high-maintenance crops (Alaskan Thunderfuck et al.). > > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 16:06:27 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:06:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <009101c4f77f$033a5bc0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Ned Late" > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, with the remainder of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't have to work so hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. They'd have a lot more time to spend home schooling their kids. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From megao at sasktel.net Tue Jan 11 14:12:33 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:12:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E3DED1.6020100@sasktel.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Sun, Jan 09, 2005 at 09:27:25PM -0800, spike wrote: > > > >>Hemp? >> >> > >Yes. The major source of plant fiber, before the wood cellulose industry (and >fledgling plastics; DuPont) started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign >(in early 1930s). You haven't heard? > > > >>Agro, were you just seeing if we were paying attention? >> >> > >Hemp crop for fiber/seed/oil use has very low THC content. Very different >animal from those high-maintenance crops (Alaskan Thunderfuck et al.). > > > The nature of cannabis phytochemistry makes it high on the list for designer chemistry. The same biochemistry that produces cannabinoids is a candidate for synthesis of other valuable bioactives. The waste biomass is fibre or fuel, the meal/oil is food, the phytochemicals are the profit potential. In the early days of america there were laws that families had to grow hemp as a way to self sustain the household. However, it will take a major change in mindset before the suburban household starts growing and eating marigolds, hawthorn tree parts,....... as these are usually expected as pre-packaged finished products. You are talking to someone who designs ways to modify ordinary foods into being bioactive delivery devices, so I have a distinct bias based on my knowledge of the field. Morris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From megao at sasktel.net Tue Jan 11 14:29:17 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:29:17 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees/urban agriculture In-Reply-To: References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E3E2BD.6000704@sasktel.net> MB wrote: >It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash >crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, >but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but >it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. > >Regards, >MB > > > > From what I have seen of the marijuana growers business, there are very sophisticated bio-product possibilities which can be operated as mom-pop franchises and for personal use. The key ingredient is money in for work expended. At 100 CAD/ ounce the market for growers is teeming. So , why not grow this bioactives industry with a variety of alternative bio-products. Urban , high value agriculture is possible. And this does remove CO2 and clean air from the enviro- perspective. The houses are heated already, the lawns are high input ag areas. Many homes already have more space than they know what to do with. Automated herbal production systems are readily available. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 16:16:03 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:16:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050111161603.52559.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > Better: insulate your house. Put good passive absorbers on the roof > for heating your water. Build a winter garden, and other means for > passive solar heating. > > Use efficient burners. Use hydrogen-rich fossil fuels (methane), or > renewables (there are now new clean wood powder burners, etc). > > Use energy-efficient household machines. > > This gives the best ROI. Everything beyond that is going to cost you > more, and give you increasingly diminishing returns (some local > variations like geothermia and microhydro or subsidized PV ignored > on purpose). > > Planting trees is a good idea on its own, though. Planting stands of trees to the north of your home reduces winter termal losses by creating natural windbreaks (particularly coniferous growth). Planting around the south (eventually) results in summer shading of the home, reducing A/C load. Make the south planting maple and you have a food source.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From spike66 at comcast.net Tue Jan 11 16:33:39 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:33:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <004c01c4f7fb$4efb98e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Eugen Leitl: ... started it's "Reefer madness" defamation campaign (in early 1930s). You haven't heard?... Ja I saw the film recently. Brilliant satire! The gullible will fall for the joke and the hep cats will fall off their chairs laughing. (Thats me, Im a real hipster daddio.) They must have had a riot making that film. Who knew marijuana could make one such a great jazz pianist? {8^D spike From alexboko at umich.edu Tue Jan 11 16:31:56 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:31:56 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? Message-ID: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> The luddites have disgusted me since I was a child. Their idea of utopia would be hell for me. What worries me is that at least they have a contingency plan, should civilization collapse-- live close to the land, farm for a living, cleave tight to your community, and do not rely on any tool or institution that you cannot recreate yourself should the need arise. A low-tech agrarian society will not be maintaining (let alone reviving) any cryonicists, curing aging, creating AI, inventing nanotech, or performing uploads. So, we need to have a better contingency plan in place than the rather depressing one the opposition has. A contingency plan that will safeguard not only our immediate survival but also the technologies needed for the long-term survival of humanity. We're smarter than them, and I'm confident that we will come up with one. Best think tank in the world (and the couple of people who choose to remain outside it but whose opinion I value and am therefore bcc-ing), I ask you this: *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along should the world collapse into another dark age? *** Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're dead. Let's be pragmatic. --Happy New Year, Alex From max at maxmore.com Tue Jan 11 16:39:36 2005 From: max at maxmore.com (Max More) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:39:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Fwd: Exciting Opportunities from the Institute for Humane Studies Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.2.20050111103747.028a12c8@pop-server.austin.rr.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae77c1.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 4819 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae785e.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5609 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae789c.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 6125 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae790a.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 5237 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae7958.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 899 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ae7987.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 16:51:13 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:51:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110223930.032f2050@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <20050111165113.52975.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- Keith Henson wrote: > At 12:06 PM 10/01/05 -0800, you wrote: > >--- Ned Late wrote: > > > Didn't you attend school in the UK? Weren't UK > > > schools > > > better than US counterparts at that time? > > > >Nope. Palo Alto, California. Silicon Valley, USA. > > What year? (My daughter graduated there in 2000) I graduated from Henry M. Gunn High School in 1992. >From what I hear, the character of the school was in transition while I was there; it was a bit different than what my brother experienced a few years prior, and definitiely different than what was in place in time for your daughter. I haven't set foot on the campus since, so I wouldn't know for sure, although I have driven by it a few times and it definitely looks a bit different. Multiple new buildings, for one. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 16:54:11 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:54:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <001001c4f78e$bdac0300$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050111165411.54922.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > Perhaps we > > should fire all > > of the administrators and teachers and replace > them with proctors. Send > > the kids to school, > > and let them interact as they wish, subject only > to rules of behavior > > enforced by the proctors. > > > This is actually a great idea. Turn them loose with > a library and Google. I > wonder if there would be a legal and ethical way to > test this and see how it > works? Do it some place that doesn't normally have schools, for instance rural India. If it's a choice between this experiment and nothing, then since it seems likely this experiment will at least not produce negative learning, that takes care of the ethical side ("do no harm"). Legal is up to negotiation with the local administrators, but if you really are doing it someplace that doesn't have schools but wants them someday, approval should not be too hard to obtain. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 17:00:36 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:00:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050111170036.11872.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- MB wrote: > > It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash > crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, > but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but > it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. Commonly refered to as 'ditch weed', natural hemp typically has low THC levels. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:01:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:01:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <41E31D2F.70702@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050111170159.56957.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > You don't > supplant prescientific myths by saying you have a > better form of the > same thing. You'd be surprised how often it works. > This would be equivalent to claiming > that chemistry was > actually modern alchemy It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: there is no question among serious historians that modern chemistry had its origins in alchemy. Granted, there have been many many refinements and upgrades to the process over the centuries, such that we now refer to them by two different names, but it is technically correct to say that chemistry is modern alchemy. > and astronomy nothing but > scientific > astrology. True again - if by "scientific astrology" you include "attempting to find a scientific explanation for the patterns of the stars that were observed in astrology". One could arguably fit all of astronomy's discoveries - including redshifts, black holes, dark matter theories, and so forth - under that defintion, for are they not all aspects of the fundamentals that our night sky revealed to ancient humans (even if many of the aspects themselves were undreamt of until recently)? From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:06:48 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:06:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050110214354.35559.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111170648.58994.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > "Checked luggage" is itself an inconvenience. I > don't > > fly much, but when I do, I've done carry-on only > for > > the past few years. And if there are any special > > procedures required for a certain item, that's > another > > inconvenience. > > That is what you get for tolerating an > unconstitutional FAA. Actually, this is what we get for tolerating airlines that are routinely sloppy with handling checked baggage, such that some of us grow concerned that our bags will in fact reach the same destination we are headed for, at least without a delay of several days (and major inconvenience in the mean time as we had planned to rely on things in that checked baggage, such as the next day's clothes). Some of the blame might go to the FAA, but the airlines themselves bear prime responsibility here. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 11 17:30:53 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:30:53 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009d01c4f803$4d743bf0$9ceafb44@kevin> That may be true, but It's not like you can give a kid 2 hours of instruction and then leave for work for 6 hours. Instead, wouldn;t that 2 hours of instruction time be spread out over a period of 4-6 hours? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Lorrey" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:06 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > From: "Ned Late" > > > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > > > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. > > > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* > > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). > > > > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, with the remainder > of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't have to work so > hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. They'd have a lot > more time to spend home schooling their kids. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:27:02 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:27:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > From: "Ned Late" > > > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then > scrap > > > it and let the parents do the babysitting > themselves. > > > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most > parents are *at work.* > > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back > (thank goodness). > > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, > with the remainder > of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't > have to work so > hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. > They'd have a lot > more time to spend home schooling their kids. While there are exceptions, most jobs are officially 40 hours a week, plus commute time both ways, regardless of how much you "need" to work. On top of that, many bosses now expect good workers to bring work home with them or to work unpaid overtime; to remain competitive in the labor force, 50 or even 60 hours a week of actual work (again, plus commute both ways) is not uncommon. As a result of doing what they need to do to avoid unemployment, many parents find themselves without time or energy to interact with their children during the week beyond maybe dinner together - and sometimes not even that. I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate to more hours in the day to do other things. Even home schooling. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 11 17:44:51 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wikipedia Faces Growing Pains In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205011102025fb1e7e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050111174451.5861.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: > http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,66210,00.html I particularly note that they claim Wikipedia lacks the standards necessary to be a sole source reference, unlike for example the Encyclopedia Brittanica. These days, I don't think there is such a thing as a viable sole source reference in many cases. Even sources that used to be treated as viable. Between new/emerging technologies, different spins on historical events which should be documented beyond ability to forge (like the Armenian Holocaust: were or were not several million people deliberately "cleansed" in a certain region of Eastern Europe during WWI?), and the occasional typo even in the most thoroughly edited documents, on any matter of major importance I always try to get at least two credible references (usually a minimum of one source that I read for details, and another source that I skim for confirmation). Personally, I would give Wikipedia and the E.B. equal credibility on most important matters more than a few years old, and not expect the E.B. to have much information on more recent events. From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 18:03:27 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:03:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111160627.23953.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111180328.15734.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> If parents don't have time to monitor their childrens' education then perhaps they should think twice or thrice about having children in the first place. (BTW let's not call children 'kids', we don't need to call women 'broads' or 'chicks', do we?). Actually, the '50s weren't all that bad, but it couldn't last, external pressures dislocate all familial utopias. When utopian conservatives pine for the '50s they are nostalgic for nuclear family monopoly. Olga Bourlin wrote:> Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at work.* The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank goodness). __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eugen at leitl.org Tue Jan 11 18:09:01 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:09:01 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050111180901.GJ9221@leitl.org> On Tue, Jan 11, 2005 at 10:31:56AM -0600, Alex F. Bokov wrote: > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** Bury many copies of the modern equivalent of the Library of Alexandria. (I know of a guy in Oz who's been burying stacks of microfiches in steel baloons in the desert). Something directly human-readable (with some magnification, batteries included), and long-lasting (several kiloyears at least). I hope the Long Now people are into this; they'd better. > Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" > suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but > here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't > bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're > dead. Let's be pragmatic. I assume I have to die even if things pan out far better than expected. Possibly for good, if cryonics isn't there in some four to five decades. If you've got reasons for more optimism, let us hear it. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jan 11 18:34:02 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:34:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] "Trim 5 alpha gene [might] lead to Aids cure" Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111123302.01a00ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/1183.html etc From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 11 19:33:11 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:11 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: <20050111170036.11872.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050111170036.11872.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It has been said that migrant laborers have found this stuff and will try smoking it - all to no avail. Locals know it's a bummer, a sham, a false advertisement. My question is, "Will the feds jump all over you if this stuff is found on your property?" That would hardly be fair, if it grows wild... but who ever said the black helicopters would be "fair"? I've never seen it growing, so perhaps it's mostly extirpated here. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- MB wrote: > > > > > It is my understanding that hemp was grown here (NC) as a major cash > > crop for use in rope making for ships in WW1. This is only hearsay, > > but I've heard one can still find the stuff growing wild locally, but > > it's not like the new stuff at all, it's got no buzz to it. > > Commonly refered to as 'ditch weed', natural hemp typically has low THC levels. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 19:50:29 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:50:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <009d01c4f803$4d743bf0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050111195029.56905.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Why would you say that? David Lubkin has commented on his experience homeschooling his daughter on this list in the past. From all of my friends who homeschool their kids, it doesn't seem that hard. Nor do you have to be educated yourself. Many folks recruit friends with expertise to help out, particularly if they have their own business. The kids intern with the business, and the business owner gets free or low cost labor. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > That may be true, but It's not like you can give a kid 2 hours of > instruction and then leave for work for 6 hours. Instead, wouldn;t > that 2 > hours of instruction time be spread out over a period of 4-6 hours? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Lorrey" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2005 10:06 AM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic > > > > > > --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > > > From: "Ned Late" > > > > > > > Okay, but if K-12 is a babysitting service, then scrap > > > > it and let the parents do the babysitting themselves. > > > > > > Begging your pardon, but this is 2005 and most parents are *at > work.* > > > The 1950s are over, and they're never coming back (thank > goodness). > > > > > > > Home schooling requires an average of 2 hours a day, with the > remainder > > of time being self-study. Imagine if parents didn't have to work so > > hard because their tax burden was measurably lower. They'd have a > lot > > more time to spend home schooling their kids. > > > > ===== > > Mike Lorrey > > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > > _______________________________________________ > > extropy-chat mailing list > > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:00:06 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:00:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111200006.57867.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > > I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate > to more hours in the day to do other things. Even > home schooling. On the contrary. It is the modern tax structure that forces families to have two earners. With a 46% tax burden between local, state, and federal taxes, plus indirect taxation such as corporate taxation, VAT, excises, duties, taxes added to rent, etc 60% of the average person's income is taxation. If total taxes were reduced to just 10%, this means that families could afford to have just one wage earner for the same standard of living, as was done back when taxation WAS that low. Eliminate the welfare state, the warfare state, and the police state, and all the 'problems' those tyrannies are supposed to address will go away and society will be much happier. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:04:24 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:04:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <41E35E16.70104@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20050111200424.7161.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc." wrote: > Urilizing a robotic tree pruning system that runs on a combination of > electric/methanol fuel cells and extracting valuable bioactives from > the tree biomass would make even an energy in = energy out marginal > biomass productivity system economically viable. It is a myth that biomass energy will in any way impact CO2 levels. By definition, when you put carbon into plant matter that you turn around and burn, there is no net change in atmospheric CO2 levels. If you put any energy into growing that plant matter other than solar, such as into fertilizers, machinery, etc, you increase CO2 levels. Operating on organic biomass alone is not efficient enough, at 2-3% efficiency, to effectively exploit land put to biomass production. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:04:45 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:04:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111200445.53606.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Precisely. Not having children in the first place is the way to reduce couples' tax burdens. And if couples do become families then they must monitor the quality of the schools themselves and not say "it's the government's and teachers' unions responsibilty to keep education from declining too much in quality"-- because government & unions wont do so. Also long as we have mass education school-prison/babysitting institutions we will have declines in individual school quality, with inner cities having the worst schools. My hunch is that parents do want their 'kids' educated yet not particularly more educated than themselves. >I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate >to more hours in the day to do other things. Even >home schooling. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 20:14:06 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:14:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111165411.54922.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050111201407.94272.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> These are first-rate suggestions. And perhaps let certain children 'merely' obtain decent employment and not be comprehensively educated until they are in their late teens & twenties? >Turn them loose with > a library and Google. I > wonder if there would be a legal and ethical way to > test this and see how it > works? Do it some place that doesn't normally have schools, for instance rural India. If it's a choice between this experiment and nothing, then since it seems likely this experiment will at least not produce negative learning, that takes care of the ethical side ("do no harm"). Legal is up to negotiation with the local administrators, but if you really are doing it someplace that doesn't have schools but wants them someday, approval should not be too hard to obtain. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 11 20:32:59 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:32:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111180328.15734.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00aa01c4f81c$be3c1d80$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Ned Late Actually, the '50s weren't all that bad, but it couldn't last, external pressures dislocate all familial utopias. When utopian conservatives pine for the '50s they are nostalgic for nuclear family monopoly. Riiiiiiiiiight, ahhh those happy days when you could still get good help and discrimination ruled and segregation was in flower ... Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Tue Jan 11 20:42:16 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:42:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Nearby quasar, quantized redshift Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B110@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Astronomers at UCSD have observed a highly redshifted quasar in nearby galaxy NCG 7319. http://ucsdnews.ucsd.edu/newsrel/science/mcquasar.asp Any inexplicable cosmological phenomenon picques my interest, and in the course of my research I came across the idea that redshift is quantized. This is apparently a controversial issue in the astronomical community. On the web, most pages seems to be by "creation scientists". This immediately raises my suspicions but one ignores the truth at one's own peril. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_shift (I know, unreviewed, blah blah) http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/QuantizedRedshift.html Much more detailed papers are available at http://sastpc.org/publications.php for those interested. Primary proponents seem to be William Tifft, with additional support from William Napier and Bruce Guthrie. Another supporter is Halton Arp. If anyone is familiar with this effect could you please post a summary understandable to the layman of the current state of research? I am particularly interested in how this effects the standard cosmology and alternative cosmologies which do explain it. Bonus points for citations from refereed, reputable journals :) I'd love to continue digging myself, but I have work to do :( Acy From alexboko at umich.edu Tue Jan 11 20:55:23 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:55:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF99.5010308@uthscsa.edu> References: <41E3FF99.5010308@uthscsa.edu> Message-ID: <41E43D3B.6020400@umich.edu> Eugen Leitl wrote: > I assume I have to die even if things pan out far better than > expected. Possibly for good, if cryonics isn't there in some four to > five decades. If you've got reasons for more optimism, let us hear it. No, I share your assumption, Eugen. That's my whole point-- we need to take all the steps we can to insure cryonics will be there in four to five decades, even if most of civilization no longer is. Of course infinite life is thermodynamically impossible, but not indefinite life. I was just being sloppy with language, sorry. From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 11 22:13:10 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:13:10 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning In-Reply-To: <41E3185A.C39FD058@mindspring.com> References: <41E3185A.C39FD058@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <41E44F76.80908@neopax.com> Terry W. Colvin wrote: >Please put me on your email list for any reports of Ball Lightning. I've been >studying the phenomenon for 23 years now [as of 1995]. My company is doing R&D >in this area. > > > A report from a (now dead) father of a friend who saw some form once. He said it was created where two parts of the lightning discharge crossed. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 11 22:16:02 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:16:02 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <41E45022.2030404@neopax.com> alexboko wrote: > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** > > Well, a relatively small cache of textbooks should be able to reboot the world to around circa 1900AD with no problem. Beyond that I imagine detailed plans would expand exponentially, and only summaries and guidelines would be practical. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 11 22:39:46 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:39:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> As a result of doing what they > need to do to avoid unemployment, many parents find > themselves without time or energy to interact with > their children during the week beyond maybe dinner > together - and sometimes not even that. I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less expensive "paid for" cars. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 22:48:50 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <01ab01c4f82e$e694ec00$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050111224850.8586.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I remember that conversation. I didn;t say it was difficult. I was > commenting on your calculations of time vs tax burden. It would be > great if > you could spend 2 hours per day instructing and work 6 and get rid of > public > schools, but it just doesn;t work like that. On the contrary, it does. The Dept of Ed's own study of homeschooling made it pretty clear that homeschooling requires, on average, 2 hours per day and an annual average cost of $95.00. Not only that, but the goverment admitted that homeschooled kids are far less likely to commit crime, are on average far better educated than public school kids, and achieve more in post-secondary education as well as future earnings. The anti-home-schooling propaganda put ot by teachers unions and atheist statists that home schoolers are a bunch of ignorant hick bible thumpers who turn out illiterate 'cestnoids couldn't be further from the truth, and the government itself admits as much. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 11 22:51:35 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:51:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050111225135.89204.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- MB wrote: > > It has been said that migrant laborers have found this stuff and will > try smoking it - all to no avail. Locals know it's a bummer, a sham, > a false advertisement. > > My question is, "Will the feds jump all over you if this stuff is > found on your property?" That would hardly be fair, if it grows > wild... but who ever said the black helicopters would be "fair"? No, however if a cop catches you picking it, watch out. They have in many cases successfully prosecuted the pickers. (we can't have people going around making rope for free, can we?) ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 11 22:57:44 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:57:44 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Homeschooling - change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111195029.56905.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050111195029.56905.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just because you homeschool doesn't mean you must *always* homeschool. My brother and his wife homeschooled for a couple of years when schools were bad, but when they moved to a new place the kids went to school again. The homeschool years avoided some *serious* behavior/discipline problems at the first school. Didn't hurt the kids one bit, far as I can tell. One is an attorney, one has a Masters in math, the third is currently sysadmin for the engineering dept at his university... Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Why would you say that? > > David Lubkin has commented on his experience homeschooling his daughter > on this list in the past. From all of my friends who homeschool their > kids, it doesn't seem that hard. Nor do you have to be educated > yourself. Many folks recruit friends with expertise to help out, > particularly if they have their own business. The kids intern with the > business, and the business owner gets free or low cost labor. > > --- Kevin Freels wrote: > > > That may be true, but It's not like you can give a kid 2 hours of > > instruction and then leave for work for 6 hours. Instead, wouldn;t > > that 2 > > hours of instruction time be spread out over a period of 4-6 hours? > From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Wed Jan 12 00:24:12 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:24:12 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B138@amazemail2.amazeent.com> According to my information, the government spends more than twice as much per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing that tax burden would foster a flourishing private school industry. Acy -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Ned Late Sent: Tuesday, 11 January, 2005 14:05 To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] change of topic Precisely. Not having children in the first place is the way to reduce couples' tax burdens. And if couples do become families then they must monitor the quality of the schools themselves and not say "it's the government's and teachers' unions responsibilty to keep education from declining too much in quality"-- because government & unions wont do so. Also long as we have mass education school-prison/babysitting institutions we will have declines in individual school quality, with inner cities having the worst schools. My hunch is that parents do want their 'kids' educated yet not particularly more educated than themselves. >I.e., a reduced tax burden does not directly translate >to more hours in the day to do other things. Even >home schooling. _____ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dgc at cox.net Wed Jan 12 01:30:09 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:30:09 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees and EVs In-Reply-To: <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> References: <41E1C56D.9010509@cox.net> <010401c4f738$c2705ef0$9ceafb44@kevin> <41E32052.9050109@cox.net> <20050111092705.GW9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <41E47DA1.9080900@cox.net> Eugen Leitl wrote: >On Mon, Jan 10, 2005 at 07:39:46PM -0500, Dan Clemmensen wrote: > > >>Kevin Freels wrote: >> >> >> >>>So who wants to start work developing a home solar/wind combo re-charging >>>station? >>> >>> >>OK, now we have it: Grow trees and leave them standing: they sequester >>carbon as they grow. >> >> > >Better: insulate your house. Put good passive absorbers on the roof for >heating your water. Build a winter garden, and other means for passive solar >heating. > >Use efficient burners. Use hydrogen-rich fossil fuels (methane), or renewables (there >are now new clean wood powder burners, etc). > >Use energy-efficient household machines. > >This gives the best ROI. Everything beyond that is going to cost you more, >and give you increasingly diminishing returns (some local variations like >geothermia and microhydro or subsidized PV ignored on purpose). > > > Absolutely. However, this does not provide energy for transportation. For that we need to generate either electricity or hydrocarbon fuel, I speculated that the incremental cost to generate power for the house, given the capital investment needed to generate energy for the EV, would be acceptably small. Of course, when you notice that your leaf pile from last year is running out before the next fall, you will probably decide to insulate, etc. in order to conserve energy. I focused on electricity rather than hydrocarbon fuel because one of the two parent threads was all about zero-emission vehicles. With respect to heating, the use of any fuel means that you are not being clever enough in managing your heat budget. Insulation, solar thermal, and heat storage and transfer should keep you snug. However, if you are converting biomass to electricity, or even to methanol and/or methane, you also have a fair amount of cogenerated process heat to work with, and it may be cheaper to use it than it is to mess with solar thermal. From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 12 02:26:36 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:26:36 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Kevin Freels" > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > expensive "paid for" cars. Begging your pardon (again), but ... second job? *Second* job? Whose second job? 1) Adult people work for many reasons - even independently rich people have been known to work (not because they have to - but for various good reasons). While not a norm in every culture, we (supposedly) value gender equality (and are finally able to achieve some semblance of this, thanks to near-perfect birth control and other reproductive options). That's what equality is all about - not just equal freedom, but equal responsibility, as in being financially responsible = i.e., being a $elf-$ufficient grown up person. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... and 2) Not all families have two incomes because not all families (by choice of chance) have two adult heads-of-household. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... and 3) It may have been necessary at one time in human history (when there was no choice, especially in matters of birth control), but for an adult to somehow feel obligated to support another *adult* is a very bad idea, indeed. We no longer need to do this. (There are exceptions, of course - some people are not able to work, are sick, mentally unbalanced, what have you...). Children are financially supported - and as a result children, being children - have a diminution of their "rights." (Children, in effect, trade in some of their "rights" for this financial support - the way women in the past traded in their "rights" by being financially supported.) But - yippee, and what a relief it is to live in 2005 ... when women no longer need to be play the part of "children." and, I think ... 4) One can't comfortably and justifiably say "fuck you" to anything or anyone unless one is financially self-sufficient. As a financially self-sufficient grown up woman, I wouldn't give up this privilege for a million bucks (i.e., I wouldn't give up my self-sufficiency for anything or anyone - why would *any* adult want to give their independence up?). And because it's 2005 - I don't have to. "Second job" my arse. Get serious, Kevin. Arrrrrrrrrrrrr, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...., Olga From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 03:11:06 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:11:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B138@amazemail2.amazee nt.com> References: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B138@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111210122.01aeae60@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: >According to my information, the government spends more than twice as much >per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing that tax burden >would foster a flourishing private school industry. Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per resident - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil So the *best* private schools manage to charge less than half that? Wow. Damien Broderick From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 03:42:48 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:42:48 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] real expensive education Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111213838.01a1b718@pop-server.satx.rr.com> But I left out the real knee-slapper: At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: >According to my information, the government spends more than twice as much >per student annually as the best private schools. EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil The annual high school tuition charged today by St. John's in Houston, the school once attended by my nearest and dearest, is $13,000. Acy, were you using some esoteric sense of the word `best' (one that doesn't have `cheapest' built-in as part of the definition)? Damien Broderick From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 12 04:16:40 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:16:40 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: IMHO having children is a full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a combination of the two. Yes, it is lovely that women have freedom to work now outside the home, it is a fine and good thing. It is an excellent thing that fathers can take time to be home with children - that they do not have to work all the time. However, this is a consumer society, Olga - you've complained about it before, as have I. IMHO if one has a child one has taken on a commitment that lasts for at least 18 years, and there may need to be sacrifices made to honor that commitment. Financial sacrifices, even. If one is not willing to make the sacrifices then perhaps one shouldn't be having kids. Single parents are in a particularly difficult place in this regard. If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have made some different choices. Children do benefit from two parents. Hell, *parents* benefit from two parents. That's because parenting is a full time job. For somebody. Been there, done that. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "Kevin Freels" > > > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that > > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to > > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > > expensive "paid for" cars. > > Begging your pardon (again), but ... second job? *Second* job? Whose > second job? > > 1) Adult people work for many reasons - even independently rich people have > been known to work (not because they have to - but for various good > reasons). While not a norm in every culture, we (supposedly) value gender > equality (and are finally able to achieve some semblance of this, thanks to > near-perfect birth control and other reproductive options). That's what > equality is all about - not just equal freedom, but equal responsibility, as > in being financially responsible = i.e., being a $elf-$ufficient grown up > person. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... > > and > > 2) Not all families have two incomes because not all families (by choice of > chance) have two adult heads-of-household. Yippee, it is 2005, after all > ... > > and > > 3) It may have been necessary at one time in human history (when there was > no choice, especially in matters of birth control), but for an adult to > somehow feel obligated to support another *adult* is a very bad idea, > indeed. We no longer need to do this. (There are exceptions, of course - > some people are not able to work, are sick, mentally unbalanced, what have > you...). Children are financially supported - and as a result children, > being children - have a diminution of their "rights." (Children, in effect, > trade in some of their "rights" for this financial support - the way women > in the past traded in their "rights" by being financially supported.) But - > yippee, and what a relief it is to live in 2005 ... when women no longer > need to be play the part of "children." > > and, I think ... > > 4) One can't comfortably and justifiably say "fuck you" to anything or > anyone unless one is financially self-sufficient. As a financially > self-sufficient grown up woman, I wouldn't give up this privilege for a > million bucks (i.e., I wouldn't give up my self-sufficiency for anything or > anyone - why would *any* adult want to give their independence up?). And > because it's 2005 - I don't have to. > > "Second job" my arse. Get serious, Kevin. > > Arrrrrrrrrrrrr, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...., > Olga From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Wed Jan 12 04:34:21 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:34:21 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B141@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: > >> According to my information, the government spends more than twice >> as much per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing >> that tax burden would foster a flourishing private school industry. > > > Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm > > EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA > > - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per resident > > - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil > > > So the *best* private schools manage to charge less than half that? > Wow. > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat How's this sound, from the National Center for Education Statistics: http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/2004319.pdf "In the 2000-2001 school year, the median school district received $8,236 per student in revenues from state, local, and federal sources... Total expenditures per student ranged between $6,158 and $12,621 for 80 percent of the school districts in the country." For 12 years of education this gives a total cost of ~$100K - Unfortunately I am unable to find data to support the cost of private schools. However, based upon a reported ~$13K/year for secondary school (from another message) and ~$5K per year for primary school here in Austin, and assuming six years @ $5k, three years @ $9K, and three years at $13K, a total cost of $96K is arrived at. This compares less favorably costwise than I imagined; however the environment and education is likely far superior in private schools. If someone could find statistics on the cost of public schooling divided according to primary and secondary education I would be quite appreciative. Acy From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Jan 12 04:43:10 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:43:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111210122.01aeae60@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050112044310.17519.qmail@web81205.mail.yahoo.com> Careful where you get your statistics. The Statistical Abstract of the United States lists in 2000 47.2 million public K-12 students, and 402 billion dollars in total expenditures (State and Federal) for roughly $8500 per student. To cross check this, I looked at the budget for my local Milwaukee Public Schools, widely acknowledged as one of the worst in the country. With roughly 100,000 enrollment, total expenditures are roughly 900 million total, or $9000 per student. Pretty average, then. University School, the priciest if not best private school in Milwaukee area, charges 10,000 to 15,000 dollars per year. They have a significant endowment and contributions (looks like 1 million per year), and about 1.7 million in tuition assistance, so call it a wash. Still significantly more than MPS, but I think it is fair to say that you get far more than twice your value. Milwaukee area Catholic schools seem to range between $1600 and $6700 per year tuition, significantly less than MPS spends. I don't know to what extent the Archdiocese subsidizes this, but I doubt it is much and you can't nuns like you used too. I think it is fair to say that you get more for your money with private schools, but public schools do not cost "twice" as much as the "best" private schools. It *might* be "twice" as much for comparable schools (in facilities and staff), as evidenced by the Catholic school rates. On the third hand, looking through, I noticed that Whitefish Bay, a suburban village right next to Milwaukee and part of Milwaukee County, spends ~$10,000 per student per year, and it has beautiful facilities and staff (for instance, the high school has an olympic size indoor swimming pool). What it boils down to is that there is a strong selection effect with American schools. Parents who care work their butts off and either move to the 'burbs or find some way to go to a private school. In general, parents who don't care dump their kids in whatever is available. An interesting example is the apartment complex I live in in Whitefish Bay. It is jam full of immigrant families and refugees from the city who take advantage of the relatively low rent and location to send the kids to good schools. Since there is such a selection effect, I think it is difficult to generalize from the current situation to one where there are no public schools at all. --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: > > >According to my information, the government spends > more than twice as much > >per student annually as the best private schools. > Reducing that tax burden > >would foster a flourishing private school industry. > > > Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm > > EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA > > - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per > resident > > - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil > > > So the *best* private schools manage to charge less > than half that? Wow. > > Damien Broderick > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Jan 12 04:54:14 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:54:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B141@amazemail2.amazeent.com> Message-ID: <20050112045414.9990.qmail@web81210.mail.yahoo.com> > If someone could find statistics on the cost of > public schooling > divided according to primary and secondary education > I would be > quite appreciative. Check out the Statistical Abstract of the United States: http://www.census.gov/statab/www/ prepared by the Census, it has everthing you want and more. From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 12 05:14:23 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:14:23 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <000f01c4f865$94baec40$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "MB" > IMHO having children is a full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a > combination of the two. Hmmm, well I had two children and full time jobs (so did my mother, and my grandmother). Next. > [full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a > combination of the two. Why limit childrearing to just those two? Other people in the child's life (many many other people) can play important roles in child rearing. Nannies - child care workers - relatives - extended family - teachers - counselors - and more inanimate "teachers" like books and television (I am one that happens to love television, and have done a lot of maturing/thinking through the years watching everything from old movies to talk shows, as well as news to documentaries - TV *is* a *great* babysitter IMO). I wish I had "books on tape" when I was growing up, to supplement my reading-books-the-old-fashioned-way - but I digress. > Yes, it is lovely that women have freedom to work now outside the > home, it is a fine and good thing. Lovely, you say? (And why didn't you say "... it is lovely that men have freedom to work now outside the home.[?]" - because they are the "default" breadwinner of something?) IMO - this is not just a fine thing, it's a *crucial* thing for both men and women (and their offspring, should that happen). And this "thing" is not going to go away. > It is an excellent thing that fathers can take time to be home with > children - that they do not have to work all the time. Hey - as far as I'm concerned, fathers can take time to be home with children - or not. It's their choice. There are others who can take up the slack. Fathers (and mothers) who work to support their children are doing a lot already. There are many ways to show children you love them - spending time with them is one way, being away from them (at work) is another. > However, this is a consumer society, Olga - you've complained about > it before, as have I. IMHO if one has a child one has taken on a > commitment that lasts for at least 18 years, and there may need to be > sacrifices made to honor that commitment. Financial sacrifices, even. I was complaining about spending money on the stupid horse-and-pony show at the White House and cloning cats, but I'm *very* serious about the worthiness of children. As for self-sacrifice - I know I've said it here before and I haven't changed my mind about it. IMO children are an *indulgence* ... one of the greatest *indulgences* in one's life. There *are* sacrifices some people make for their children - I knew a woman who had three boys, two of whom had cystic fibrosis. The things that woman had to go through every day was what I would consider somewhat of a sacrifice (although I'm sure she never thought so, knowing her) I personally had children because I wanted them (selfish reasons). And I've felt indulged beyond my wildest dreams. I don't understand "sacrifice" or "financial sacrifice" when it comes to children. Honoring commitments? You mean *loving them*? (I guess - having been reared away from the United States - I don't understand these things very well. There are lots of things I don't understand about many "typical American parents" - and I suppose I never will.) Olga > If one is not willing to make the sacrifices then perhaps one > shouldn't be having kids. > > Single parents are in a particularly difficult place in this regard. > If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have made some different > choices. Children do benefit from two parents. Hell, *parents* benefit > from two parents. That's because parenting is a full time job. For > somebody. > > Been there, done that. > Regards, > MB > > > On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > > > From: "Kevin Freels" > > > > > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is that > > > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes to > > > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > > > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > > > expensive "paid for" cars. > > > > Begging your pardon (again), but ... second job? *Second* job? Whose > > second job? > > > > 1) Adult people work for many reasons - even independently rich people have > > been known to work (not because they have to - but for various good > > reasons). While not a norm in every culture, we (supposedly) value gender > > equality (and are finally able to achieve some semblance of this, thanks to > > near-perfect birth control and other reproductive options). That's what > > equality is all about - not just equal freedom, but equal responsibility, as > > in being financially responsible = i.e., being a $elf-$ufficient grown up > > person. Yippee, it is 2005, after all ... > > > > and > > > > 2) Not all families have two incomes because not all families (by choice of > > chance) have two adult heads-of-household. Yippee, it is 2005, after all > > ... > > > > and > > > > 3) It may have been necessary at one time in human history (when there was > > no choice, especially in matters of birth control), but for an adult to > > somehow feel obligated to support another *adult* is a very bad idea, > > indeed. We no longer need to do this. (There are exceptions, of course - > > some people are not able to work, are sick, mentally unbalanced, what have > > you...). Children are financially supported - and as a result children, > > being children - have a diminution of their "rights." (Children, in effect, > > trade in some of their "rights" for this financial support - the way women > > in the past traded in their "rights" by being financially supported.) But - > > yippee, and what a relief it is to live in 2005 ... when women no longer > > need to be play the part of "children." > > > > and, I think ... > > > > 4) One can't comfortably and justifiably say "fuck you" to anything or > > anyone unless one is financially self-sufficient. As a financially > > self-sufficient grown up woman, I wouldn't give up this privilege for a > > million bucks (i.e., I wouldn't give up my self-sufficiency for anything or > > anyone - why would *any* adult want to give their independence up?). And > > because it's 2005 - I don't have to. > > > > "Second job" my arse. Get serious, Kevin. > > > > Arrrrrrrrrrrrr, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrr ...., > > Olga > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 05:29:30 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:29:30 -0800 Subject: [Bulk] [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment Citizen Award In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2005, at 7:32 PM, Keith Henson wrote: > >> If, on either side of your chance of heart, you would subject them to >> a simulated Rapture, would they be on the "losing" or "winning" end >> of same? :-) > > Hmm. I thought "god's side" winning was part of the story. > What I was getting at is whether in the sim environment they would experience the milk and honey side of things or all the tribulations. The latter might be more educational. >> I would be more tempted to run them through a sim where humanity >> destroys itself but before they die they understand utterly that >> their own erroneous beliefs and those of their siblings in spirit, >> were responsible and that their beliefs were in fact totally bogus. > > Not worth it. Bad enough to give them want they claim to want. I > suspect the operators would have to mess with their boredom threshold > to keep them from going mad after a simulated thousand years of > singing around a simulated thrown of God. > Yep. >> No need for upload though. A vivid set of induced dreams should do >> the trick. > > I think having a bunch of them in the throws of induced rapture dreams > flailing around in reality isn't a good idea. In fact, that's much > the problem we have now. > What I was thinking of would be strictly within their dreams. I am speaking of vivid dreams here rather than psychotic breaks. The point being that if the nature of their beliefs make them utterly immune to discourse or evidence or argument then only some other means can possibly get through to them just how horrid a world-view they have made allegiance with. This is about the most moral way I can come up with at the moment of stopping the fundies of all kinds and religions from destroying us all. It would be most moral to do so in a way that left some hope for them to be healed and able to turn the best of their ideals to work on the creation of a real "promised land". - samantha From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jan 12 05:39:39 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:39:39 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education Message-ID: <1105508379.10980@whirlwind.he.net> There are a lot of misconceptions about funding and wages of schools, public and private, in the United States. This is one of my favorite topics, so I'll just throw down some gross summaries; people can google if they want more detail. - On average, private schools spend roughly half of what public schools spend per student on elementary school education. For high school education, it is around 70%. - Public school teachers have average salaries that are comfortably above the US average, and usually 20-30% above their private school peers. Despite union whining to the contrary, teachers are not underpaid (I have a number of public school teachers in my family, and can back up the statistics with anecdotal evidence). - While private school spending is far tighter, a much larger percentage of the budget goes directly to the teacher and the classroom (as would have to be the case given the spending disparities). - The US spends more per student for basic education than virtually every other industrialized nation, even in cow towns where the cost of living is low. And, well, I think most people are at least loosely familiar with our legendary return on investment. - The US spends substantially more of its tax revenue at all levels on public education than its famously large defense budget, even today. cheers, j. andrew rogers From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 05:39:55 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:39:55 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees In-Reply-To: References: <41E1D97F.7040900@sasktel.net> <008801c4f6d5$196da6e0$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <20050111112733.GA9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <6364FC1A-645C-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Hemp grows wild in quite a few climates. It is a very hardy oversized weed. And no, it will not get you high. Hemp has been used for rope, cloth, various usages for its oil and so on for hundreds of years. The current "drug war" attitudes toward the highly overbred intoxicating varieties should not lead us to swoon and roll our eyes whenever hemp is mentioned. -s From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 05:52:54 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:52:54 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Big Sound theory Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111235046.01b9b1e8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/01/12/1105423539638.html?oneclick=true Universe is flat with a ripple January 12, 2005 - 3:02PM Australian astronomers have discovered the so-called missing link that relates modern galaxies such as the Milky Way to the Big Bang that created the universe almost 14 billion years ago. The breakthrough came after a decade of research by an Australian-led team from the Anglo-Australian Observatory. The findings have been confirmed by independent research from the American-led Sloan Digital Sky Survey, announced today at a meeting of the American Astronomical Society in San Diego, California. Scientists found the universe is flat, with ripples that began as the tiniest variations in radiation left over from the Big Bang, which many cosmologists believe gave birth to the universe. As it cooled after the giant explosion, the infant universe was actually making a sound and those waves produced the ripples. The way galaxies are scattered across the sky now corresponds to the sound waves in the early times of the cosmos, researchers have found. The project - called the two-degree field galaxy Redshift survey - involved mapping the three dimensional distribution in space of 220,000 galaxies, using complex astronomical instruments at the Anglo-Australian telescope in north-western New South Wales. A research team member and Anglo-Australian Observatory scientist, Russell Cannon, said the findings were of enormous importance. "What we've done is show the pattern of the galaxies, the distribution of the galaxies which we see here and now, is completely consistent with this other pattern that's seen in remnants of the big bang," he told AAP. The research, Dr Cannon said, added serious weight to the Big Bang theory about the origin of the universe. "We've known for a long time that the best theory for the universe is the Big Bang - that it started in some enormous explosion in a tiny space and it expanded ever since," he said. "What we can now be much more confident about is that it is the right basic idea, it all bolts together very nicely." A surprise result of the research was new evidence about the expansion of the universe. Scientists had believed the universe was expanding but was gradually slowing down because the force of the gravity should be pulling it back together. "So the idea was that we started with an explosion, it blows out but it gradually goes slower as it's expanding," Dr Cannon said. "What the observations have proved is that it's not expanding, it's accelerating. It means that some other force is at work or some other physics. It's not just the simple gravity picture we had to start with." The decade of research, Dr Cannon said, had also taken astronomy forward as a science. "It's moved cosmology from what was almost a philosophical discussion to what you might call a proper bit of science, of physics, where we're measuring numbers and we're able to do a proper comparison of these theories and observations." - AAP From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:09:17 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:09:17 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> You make very good points and bring up excellent questions. > > > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** The short and of necessity first answer is that we can in no wise allow the world to collapse into another dark age. The question is how to avoid it. One of the best ways to avoid this but also quite dangerous is to advance the technology so far and so rapidly that many more options exist to guarantee its continuance and or the ability of the technology possessing technophiles to fend off any/all attacks by others. Of course the technology this side of FAI does not care whether the users of the technology are wise or suicidal. The technology can and most likely will be wielded by the foes of human progress as well as by its friends. A better way is to persuade those with power of the necessity of continuing technological progress AND to not use some of the technology to oppress the population so deeply that progress and human happiness is destroyed or too greatly curtailed. Persuading masses of the population of the wisdom of this course would be very good. But I don't have very small hope that this can be done quickly enough even in the developed countries. Doing it in the 2nd and 3rd world especially in lands governed by religions that brook no moderation or questioning of their tenets is beyond what I believe is possible in time. Those who believe just because they believe and are closed to reason are great dangers as the technological acceleration puts more and more power in fewer hands for less cost or allows masses of such to vote policy to ambitions and foolhardy leaders. I think that it is necessary if we are serious about a truly extropian future that we create the space legally, psychologically, physically, economically and ethically to proceed with the work of expanding extropy regardless of whatever laws and restrictions the world may throw up. There can be no just law restricting this work. I do not believe it is extropic to simply give up if say the US goes effectively theocratic or massively anti-technological progress in important areas and persuades or bullies most of the rest of the world into going along. We need safe havens where the necessary work can go on. Another level of prudent dedication to extropy is to find a way to hibernate the technology and knowledge for the day when it can resurface. If collapse is a possibility then we owe it to ourselves and to those who come later to take this step. If we do get to the place where such a collapse is actually in progress (it can happen very quickly in some scenarios) and we have not prepared then it is likely too late for all but very small amounts to be saved. We lose. So before we get to such a place, besides doing everything we can to avoid such a possibility, we must build contingencies to save all of the knowledge and "seed technology" that we possibly can. We must have a way to set up some sort of guardians of the knowledge and information who protect it, use it and re-introduce it as quickly as is possible. Alternately we would need a way to set up a high technology enclave that is self-sufficient and able to defend itself if need be against anything the rest of the world can throw at it. Off planet would be nice but most likely not doable in the immediate future. The most likely minimalist scenario is a (hate this) sort of secret society/priesthood guarding and maintaining the knowledge. > > Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" > suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but > here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't > bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're > dead. Let's be pragmatic. > > Yes. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:16:37 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:16:37 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050111170159.56957.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050111170159.56957.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <840E52AC-6461-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >> You don't >> supplant prescientific myths by saying you have a >> better form of the >> same thing. > > You'd be surprised how often it works. > >> This would be equivalent to claiming >> that chemistry was >> actually modern alchemy > > It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: there > is no question among serious historians that modern > chemistry had its origins in alchemy. Having origins in and being the same as are quite different things, yes? > Granted, there > have been many many refinements and upgrades to the > process over the centuries, such that we now refer to > them by two different names, but it is technically > correct to say that chemistry is modern alchemy. No, it is not. The purpose, not to mention the methodology and eschewing of mystical elements makes it very much not "modern alchemy". > >> and astronomy nothing but >> scientific >> astrology. > > True again - if by "scientific astrology" you include > "attempting to find a scientific explanation for the > patterns of the stars that were observed in > astrology". But finding a scientific explanation for astronomical events is precisely what astrology was not about. That they both look at the same objects does not remotely mean they are the same. > One could arguably fit all of astronomy's > discoveries - including redshifts, black holes, dark > matter theories, and so forth - under that defintion, > for are they not all aspects of the fundamentals that > our night sky revealed to ancient humans (even if many > of the aspects themselves were undreamt of until > recently)? > No. Why attempt to twist yourself into a pretzel like this? - samantha From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jan 12 06:20:04 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:20:04 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning Message-ID: <1105510804.30116@whirlwind.he.net> Dirk wrote: > A report from a (now dead) father of a friend who saw some form once. > He said it was created where two parts of the lightning discharge crossed. It has nothing to do with "crossed discharges". The Great Plains of the United States has extremely energetic and unusual storm systems that are largely unique to that region, and in the couple years I lived out there as a teenager, I saw "ball lightning" twice. My take: It is clearly an energetic electromagnetic phenomenon, but I would also assert that it has little to do with lightning; it is a phenomenon that occurs in proximity to lightning storms because there are similar prerequisites. It tends to only interact with conductive materials. And it passes through neutral materials like cellulose and glass without interacting at all. In fact, if I had to make a wild-ass guess, the basic properties and peculiarities of it makes it look like an energetic EM phenomenon in something like the microwave range. Imagine, for example, if the peculiar electromagnetic meteorological structures of the region acted as resonators, EM waveguides, or even massive magnitron tubes (or masers?). If you've seen some of the bizarre energetic structure of these storms in the several cubic kilometer range, it would not be surprising. I've lived in many places that had severe storms, but the Great Plains region of the US has extremely violent lightning storms and very unusual atmospheric phenomenon that I have never seen anywhere else. That "ball lightning" is also common there is probably not a coincidence, in the same way that the unusual frequency of tornados there is not. j. andrew rogers From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Wed Jan 12 06:22:24 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:22:24 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education Message-ID: <1105510944.31132@whirlwind.he.net> *snips* his bulletpoints You can find a lot of comparative statistics from the US Department of Education, which tracks both public and private schools. cheers, j. andrew rogers From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:31:13 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:31:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <8E262FA0-6463-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Is that wholly the fault of the people? Our civilization in general has gone debt crazy as our economy seems to be set up to only continue to operate if more and more is created and consumed at an ever increasing rate. Quite a system of pressures all push towards high rates of consumption at the level of individuals and groups of all sizes. I would also point out that even if you live frugally and without a second car (not a luxury if commuting by two to different locations including one ferrying kids around and taking care of the home), big screen TV etc, raising even a small family in many parts of the country is barely possible if at all for many single earner households in the US. The effective costs are quite high unless one does a lot off the normal consumer grid. - samantha On Jan 11, 2005, at 2:39 PM, Kevin Freels wrote: > As a result of doing what they >> need to do to avoid unemployment, many parents find >> themselves without time or energy to interact with >> their children during the week beyond maybe dinner >> together - and sometimes not even that. > > I find many people who agree with you, but the real problem here is > that > people simply want to "have" too many nice things. The second job goes > to > support the second car payment, big screen TV, etc when a couple really > could live off of one income, albeit in a smaller house with two less > expensive "paid for" cars. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sentience at pobox.com Wed Jan 12 06:43:49 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:43:49 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110003435.032cd990@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20050110222454.032f4aa0@pop.brntfd.phub.net.cable.rogers.com> Message-ID: <41E4C725.3010602@pobox.com> One of the important major characteristics of a religion that is missing from Singularitarianism, and will remain missing so long as I have any say in the matter, is the revenge fantasy. There are many people out there with silly phobias and prejudices - people convinced that being photographed will steal their soul, or that being uploaded will steal their soul, etc. It may be that much of Earth's population, perhaps *all* of it, will require emergency first aid post-Singularity. I do not think those decisions should be made (solely) by human minds, with such weak grasps on futures and consequences; or to put it more vividly, you can't ask people to make that kind of decision while their minds are still described by the volume "Choices, Values, and Frames" (edited by Tversky and Kahneman). But that choice which must be made by some decision process, should not be chosen in a spirit of revenge. Nor condescension. Nor even annoyance. If my own efforts are successful, and my hopes and insights have any validity, it will not be so. So these emotional forces which lead you to take vicious satisfaction in envisioning these outcomes, are not the forces which shall shape the true future. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From sjatkins at mac.com Wed Jan 12 06:50:13 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:50:13 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 11, 2005, at 8:16 PM, MB wrote: > > IMHO having children is a full time job. For somebody. Dad or mom or a > combination of the two. Well, no, it isn't and hasn't been during most of human history. Of course we used to put the little ones to work with us as soon as they were able to do anything useful. We used to teach a bit more responsibility a bit earlier. But don't get me wrong. I do agree that it requires a lot of work and more than a few sacrifices. But it does not require full-time oversight by one or the other parental unit 24/7. In the old days when mom (usually mom) stayed home she wasn't exactly just or even primarily minding the little ones. Households in the fifties and earlier took a LOT of work and even then it took a fair amount of ingenuity to make ends meet. It is a fairly recent phenomenon requiring more than a little in the way of modern gadgetry that we even can think of a stay home parent as doing so primarily for the sake of the children. My mom was a fulltime housewife. Largely we kids were set to various chores and for the rest of the time told to go outside and play and get out from underfoot so she could do her manifold tasks in piece and maybe have some moments to herself. It was not some idyllic for-the-kids-sake scene by any means. > > Yes, it is lovely that women have freedom to work now outside the > home, it is a fine and good thing. > > It is an excellent thing that fathers can take time to be home with > children - that they do not have to work all the time. > > However, this is a consumer society, Olga - you've complained about > it before, as have I. IMHO if one has a child one has taken on a > commitment that lasts for at least 18 years, and there may need to be > sacrifices made to honor that commitment. Financial sacrifices, even. > One's career is not up for sacrifice just because one becomes a parent. Not an option unless full time parenting/housekeeping is a career one prefers for a time. > If one is not willing to make the sacrifices then perhaps one > shouldn't be having kids. > There is a big difference between necessary sacrifices and costs and what some view as necessary to satisfy their preferred model of how it should be. > Single parents are in a particularly difficult place in this regard. > If I'd known then what I know now, I'd have made some different > choices. Children do benefit from two parents. Hell, *parents* benefit > from two parents. That's because parenting is a full time job. For > somebody. Kids benefit from two parents and having a live-in spouse/mate makes a lot better assuming compatibility and so on. OK. But I still am not buying that parenting is a full-time job. It is a lot of work for sure. - samantha From spike66 at comcast.net Wed Jan 12 07:01:26 2005 From: spike66 at comcast.net (spike) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:01:26 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <41E34F29.2020402@mac.com> Message-ID: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the urns, in any combination you like, then leave the room. You ask a random person to enter the room, choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. You pull out one zorf without looking. Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs in the urns such that you maximize the probability that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? spike From deimtee at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 12 10:26:35 2005 From: deimtee at optusnet.com.au (David) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:26:35 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41E4FB5B.4010304@optusnet.com.au> spike wrote: > > You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large > identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the > urns, in any combination you like, then leave the > room. You ask a random person to enter the room, > choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She > shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom > you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. > You pull out one zorf without looking. > > Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. > > Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs > in the urns such that you maximize the probability > that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? > > spike > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > Assuming all the zorfs must go in an urn :-) You put one red zorf in one urn and all the white zorfs and the rest of the red zorfs in the other. Probability you will get a red zorf is (.50 + (N-1)/(2N)) Otherwise you put half the red zorfs in one urn, half in the other and defenestrate the white ones. -david From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 12 17:06:42 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 12:06:42 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: Most full time jobs are not 24/7. IMHO if parenting does not come at or very near the top of the priority list, then the job will likely not be done well. One is "on call" always, 24/7, which can certainly call for sacrifce. Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the family, to be personally responsible. Currently (at least in the USA) personal responsibility is greatly underrated! Actually, I 'spect we agree more than our words show. :) In no way did I mean that parenting is *necessarily* a sacrifice, but it sure can suddenly require such. There's only so many hours in the day, and the young are young for a limited time. We've got to be there *then*! Regards, MB From hemm at openlink.com.br Wed Jan 12 16:42:20 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:42:20 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41E4FB5B.4010304@optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <03db01c4f8c5$af5f2330$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Agreed, but for different reasons: Appart from mathematics, knowing my wife very well, I'd put only one red zorf in the first urn and all the other zorfs in the other. My wife would without any doubt bring me the lighter urn... :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again > Assuming all the zorfs must go in an urn :-) > You put one red zorf in one urn and all the white zorfs and > the rest of the red zorfs in the other. > Probability you will get a red zorf is (.50 + (N-1)/(2N)) > Otherwise you put half the red zorfs in one urn, half in > the other and defenestrate the white ones. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 12 19:11:23 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:11:23 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> > > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > family, to be personally responsible. Did you know that a self-employed person may employ their own children as long as they are at any age where thay can be reasonably be bapable of performing the tasks? They are exempt from minimum wage laws as well. You still get to write off their pay as payroll and they have to file taxes on that income as with any other employer. This gives a nice little tax advantage if you are self-employed and have many children. :-) From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 19:06:44 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:06:44 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <41E57544.6070008@neopax.com> spike wrote: >You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large >identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the >urns, in any combination you like, then leave the >room. You ask a random person to enter the room, >choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She >shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom >you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. >You pull out one zorf without looking. > >Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. > >Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs >in the urns such that you maximize the probability >that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? > > > You fill each urn with 50:50 red and whites. You make sure the red ones are on top. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 19:09:21 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:09:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning In-Reply-To: <1105510804.30116@whirlwind.he.net> References: <1105510804.30116@whirlwind.he.net> Message-ID: <41E575E1.3000006@neopax.com> J. Andrew Rogers wrote: >Dirk wrote: > > >>A report from a (now dead) father of a friend who saw some form once. >>He said it was created where two parts of the lightning discharge crossed. >> >> > > >It has nothing to do with "crossed discharges". The Great Plains of the United States has >extremely energetic and unusual storm systems that are largely unique to that region, and in >the couple years I lived out there as a teenager, I saw "ball lightning" twice. > >My take: It is clearly an energetic electromagnetic phenomenon, but I would also assert that >it has little to do with lightning; it is a phenomenon that occurs in proximity to lightning >storms because there are similar prerequisites. It tends to only interact with conductive >materials. And it passes through neutral materials like cellulose and glass without >interacting at all. > >In fact, if I had to make a wild-ass guess, the basic properties and peculiarities of it makes it >look like an energetic EM phenomenon in something like the microwave range. Imagine, for >example, if the peculiar electromagnetic meteorological structures of the region acted as >resonators, EM waveguides, or even massive magnitron tubes (or masers?). If you've seen >some of the bizarre energetic structure of these storms in the several cubic kilometer range, >it would not be surprising. > > > > I rather doubt the uwave explanation. The kind of intensity that would create and sustain a ball of plasma would have serious effects well outside of that zone as well. I suspect that it is some kind of self confining plasma with very high currents flowing in very low resistance paths. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From scerir at libero.it Wed Jan 12 19:28:02 2005 From: scerir at libero.it (scerir) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:28:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how many exabytes? References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> ... 5 exabytes: all the words ever spoken by human beings. ... 6 exabytes: information in the genomes of all the people in the world. Don't we need better definitions of all these different in-formations? s. References: http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/research/projects/ how-much-info-2003/execsum.htm#paper http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/information.html From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 19:49:51 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:49:51 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E57F5F.7020809@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > >>Samantha Atkins wrote: >> >> >> >>>Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as >>> >>> >>safe. >> >> >>No, they just think they do. >>The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far >>outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. >>The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, >>even once in their lives. >> >> > >The one time I became a victim of assault, the assailant was high on >drugs, and I was unarmed. As many of you know, I am not a small man. I >pack a punch, and I have some training in hand to hand combat. This guy >just wouldn't go down. After pummelling him several times and >attempting to walk away several times, the police finally showed up >(this happened on a well populated street in the club district of >Burlington, VT) after about 15 minutes, when I was pretty worn out and >worried about ending it positively. > > > One of the things about a good martial art is that it will teach you several ways to knock someone like that unconscious. Or straight out kill them, depending on the requirement. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From hemm at openlink.com.br Wed Jan 12 20:06:28 2005 From: hemm at openlink.com.br (Henrique Moraes Machado) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:06:28 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again References: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> <41E57544.6070008@neopax.com> Message-ID: <04d801c4f8e2$33737b00$fe00a8c0@HEMM> *If* the zorfs stay put. But what if they move? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Bruere" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again > You fill each urn with 50:50 red and whites. > You make sure the red ones are on top. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Wed Jan 12 21:00:36 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:00:36 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: Yes, this is so. But the "reasonably capable" is not necessarily what you might think. As for having the kids working at the family business, been there, done that. :) Regards, MB On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Kevin Freels wrote: > > > > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > > family, to be personally responsible. > > Did you know that a self-employed person may employ their own children as > long as they are at any age where thay can be reasonably be bapable of > performing the tasks? They are exempt from minimum wage laws as well. You > still get to write off their pay as payroll and they have to file taxes on > that income as with any other employer. This gives a nice little tax > advantage if you are self-employed and have many children. :-) From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 12 20:58:51 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:58:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050112145403.01a58ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> It's much easier on extropy-chat now that any topic at all can be discussed under the subject line "change of topic". Here's a suggestion that will make it even easier from now on. Let's make all subject lines read simply: "topic". Or even easier, leave them blank. Or better still, those people who don't understand what subject lines are used for (to identify the topic under discussion) might stop posting altogether. So much neater that way. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 21:07:31 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:07:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] real cheap education In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050111210122.01aeae60@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050112210731.56518.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > At 04:24 PM 1/11/2005 -0800, Acy wrote: > > >According to my information, the government spends more than twice > as much > >per student annually as the best private schools. Reducing that tax > burden > >would foster a flourishing private school industry. > > > Let's see: http://www.cobras.org/usastats.htm > > EDUCATION IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA > > - EXPENDITURES FOR PUBLIC SCHOOLS: $757 per resident > > - PUBLIC SCHOOL EXPENDITURES: $4,509 per pupil > > > So the *best* private schools manage to charge less than half that? > Wow. This are faked numbers. They don't include infrastructure costs that are generally hidden in the comprehensive town or school district reports. http://www.washingtonpolicy.org/Misc/PNPublicEducationSpending2004-6.htm Washington State admits here that for it's 1 million K-12 students, it spends $9 billion ($9,000 per student), and that: "Private vs. Public School Expenditures The 80,985 K-12 private school students in Washington made up seven percent of the total K-12 students in Washington in 2003. In the Seattle school district, the largest in the state, the proportion of private school students was significantly higher - 15,190 out of 47,853 (32%). While the administration of private schools is different from public schools, their costs per student can be one indicator to judge public education expenditures. About 36% of overall private school students in Washington attend Catholic schools (aprox. 29,000 Catholic school students in 2002-03). The average actual cost for educating a child at a Catholic elementary or high school in Western Washington is $7,696, about $2,000 less than the $9,454 spent per K-12 public school student in Washington. The average actual cost for educating a child at a Catholic school in Eastern Washington is $4,128 and in Central Washington it is $4,170, both about $5,000 less than is spent for public school students. The Washington Federation of Independent Schools surveyed 122 private and religious schools in Washington about the 2003-04 school year. The Federation found that the average private school tuition in Washington for grades 1-4 was $5,095, the average tuition for grades 5-8 was $6,109 and the average tuition for high school was $8,249. The survey also asked whether the tuition covered the school's actual costs per student. Twenty-six percent of schools reported that their actual cost was at or below their tuition, 53% reported that their actual cost was between $1 and $1,500 more than their tuition, and 21% reported that their actual cost was more than $1,500 higher than their tuition. " ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 21:17:01 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:17:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050112211701.72528.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > > > You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large > identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the > urns, in any combination you like, then leave the > room. You ask a random person to enter the room, > choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She > shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with whom > you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. > You pull out one zorf without looking. > > Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your faves. > > Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs > in the urns such that you maximize the probability > that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? How? You put all the white zorfs on the bottom of both urns... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 12 21:51:06 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:51:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry References: <20050108195409.82218.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> <41E57F5F.7020809@neopax.com> Message-ID: <011701c4f8f0$d2308090$9ceafb44@kevin> I think that martial arts is a very good way to handle things if they get close enough, but personally I prefer to keep my distance if at all possible. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dirk Bruere" To: "Mike Lorrey" ; "ExI chat list" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 1:49 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] weaponry > Mike Lorrey wrote: > > >--- Dirk Bruere wrote: > > > > > > > >>Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Great for you but the majority of folks need an equalizer to be as > >>> > >>> > >>safe. > >> > >> > >>No, they just think they do. > >>The injuries I've suffered doing martial arts over the years far > >>outweighs the sum total of injuries I may have avoided. > >>The vast majority of people do not get beaten to pulp on the streets, > >>even once in their lives. > >> > >> > > > >The one time I became a victim of assault, the assailant was high on > >drugs, and I was unarmed. As many of you know, I am not a small man. I > >pack a punch, and I have some training in hand to hand combat. This guy > >just wouldn't go down. After pummelling him several times and > >attempting to walk away several times, the police finally showed up > >(this happened on a well populated street in the club district of > >Burlington, VT) after about 15 minutes, when I was pretty worn out and > >worried about ending it positively. > > > > > > > One of the things about a good martial art is that it will teach you > several ways to knock someone like that unconscious. Or straight out > kill them, depending on the requirement. > > -- > Dirk > > The Consensus:- > The political party for the new millenium > http://www.theconsensus.org > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 22:12:31 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:12:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <04d801c4f8e2$33737b00$fe00a8c0@HEMM> Message-ID: <20050112221231.2961.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> SHoot them. --- Henrique Moraes Machado wrote: > *If* the zorfs stay put. But what if they move? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dirk Bruere" > To: "ExI chat list" > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 5:06 PM > Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again > > > > You fill each urn with 50:50 red and whites. > > You make sure the red ones are on top. > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 22:32:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:32:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <8E262FA0-6463-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > I would also point out that even if you live frugally and without a > second car (not a luxury if commuting by two to different locations > including one ferrying kids around and taking care of the home), big > screen TV etc, raising even a small family in many parts of the > country is barely possible if at all for many single earner > households in the US. The effective costs are quite high unless one > does a lot off the normal consumer grid. The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't get into debt to start with and watch your standard of living go up. Buy what you need in cash, don't borrow, don't get yourself in a position where you need to borrow. Getting off the grid is not hard, and not a sacrifice. Even here in relatively high cost of living NH, it is only hard if that is the life you choose. And don't live some place with a big public school system. People think that public schools save them time. It doesn't. As we've shown, the average public school education costs $9,000. If you have three kids, it is only cost effective for both spouses to work outside the home if the lowest wage earner has a TAKE HOME income of ~$40k. If you make that much, you could quit your jobs, keep your taxes, homeschool your kids, have one less car (That extra $13k covers vehicle loan, insurance, operating costs, etc. as well as after school babysitting, etc.), and have the exact same standard of living. If spousal equality is so important, each could take a part time job instead of a full time one, share in the schooling etc and have the same standard of living. Getting off the tax grid is the important thing. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 22:40:49 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:40:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <011701c4f8f0$d2308090$9ceafb44@kevin> Message-ID: <20050112224049.83576.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I think that martial arts is a very good way to handle things if they > get close enough, but personally I prefer to keep my distance if at > all possible. And a martial artist is still at a disadvantage when an attacker is armed. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From megao at sasktel.net Wed Jan 12 22:41:11 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:41:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] red/white zorfs Message-ID: <41E5A787.8040202@sasktel.net> Put one of each color with the remainder being the opposite color in each urn. Pull out 3 zorfs from one urn. If you pull 3 red ones you know all the rest save one are the right one from that urn. If you pull out more than one white one you know the other urn has all the red ones save one. The more zorfs you have the better the odds that this is the most efficient way to make a choice. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From megao at sasktel.net Wed Jan 12 22:46:42 2005 From: megao at sasktel.net (Extropian Agroforestry Ventures Inc.) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:46:42 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Trees-hemp cannabinoid antioxidants] Message-ID: <41E5A8D2.1080808@sasktel.net> Below is one reason why I include 20-30 grams per day of dried hemp bud which contains arginine rich seed protein, omega spectrum of oils and a wide array of compounds including Cannabidiol, a no psychogenic cannabinoid. You can essentialy consume hemp until the sight of it sickens you or like zuchini , you run out of new ways to hide it in your diet. But given its efficacy as a small molecule antioxidant and capacity to mimimic other antioxidants it seems to be for real. THE JOURNAL OF PHARMACOLOGY AND EXPERIMENTAL THERAPEUTICS Vol. 293, No. 3 Copyright ? 2000 by The American Society for Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics Printed in U.S.A. JPET 293:807?812, 2000 /2483/828669 Cannabinoids Protect Cells from Oxidative Cell Death: A Receptor-Independent Mechanism1 YANQIU CHEN and JOCHEN BUCK Department of Pharmacology, Joan & Sanford I. Weill Medical College of Cornell University, New York, New York Accepted for publication March 9, 2000 This paper is available online at http://www.jpet.org ABSTRACT Serum is required for the survival and growth of most animal cells. In serum-free medium, B lymphoblastoid cells and fibroblasts die after 2 days. We report that submicromolar concentrations of D9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), D8-THC, cannabinol, or cannabidiol, but not WIN 55,212-2, prevented serumdeprived cell death. D9-THC also synergized with plateletderived growth factor in activating resting NIH 3T3 fibroblasts. The cannabinoids? growth supportive effect did not correlate with their ability to bind to known cannabinoid receptors and showed no stereoselectivity, suggesting a nonreceptor-mediated pathway. Direct measurement of oxidative stress revealed that cannabinoids prevented serum-deprived cell death by antioxidation. The antioxidative property of cannabinoids was confirmed by their ability to antagonize oxidative stress and consequent cell death induced by the retinoid anhydroretinol. Therefore, cannabinoids act as antioxidants to modulate cell survival and growth of B lymphocytes and fibroblasts. Marijuana has been known for centuries to be a psychoactive medicinal plant (Nahas, 1984). Among its .60 different cannabinoids, (2)-D9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and cannabidiol are most abundant (Turner et al., 1980). (2)-D9-THC is the most potent psychoactive compound in marijuana and cannabidiol is nonpsychoactive (Dewey, 1986). In recent years, two cannabinoid receptors, CB1 and CB2, have been identified as G protein-coupled 7-transmembrane-spanning receptor proteins (Matsuda et al., 1990; Munro et al., 1993). CB1, preferentially expressed in brain, mediates the psychoactivity of cannabinoids. CB2 is highly expressed in immune cells; however, its biological functions have yet to be determined. There are numerous, sometimes contradictory, reports of cannabinoid effects on proliferation and cytolysis of T cells, proliferation and antibody production of B cells, nitric oxide (NO) release by macrophages, and cytolysis of natural killer cells (Thomas et al., 1998). During metabolic cellular processes, oxidative species such as superoxide radical anion, hydrogen peroxide, and lipid peroxides are generated intracellularly (Scandalios, 1997). These oxidative species, if not eliminated, damage DNA, protein, or membrane lipids and cause oxidative cell death. Thus, endogenous antioxidative enzymes such as superoxide dismutase, catalase, and peroxidase, as well as endogenous small-molecule antioxidants such as vitamin E, vitamin C, and ubiquinol are required for cells to survive (Scandalios, 1997). Exogenous small-molecule antioxidants also have been shown to effectively prevent oxidative cell death in cultured cells (Busciglio and Yankner, 1995; Johnson et al., 1996; Nakao et al., 1996; Hampson et al., 1998). In this report, we study the mechanism whereby cannabinoids affect cultured human B lymphoblastoid cells and mouse fibroblasts. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& Discussion In this study, we showed that (2)-D9-THC, (2)-D8-THC, cannabinol, or cannabidiol at submicromolar concentrations prevented serum-deprived cell death of human B lymphoblastoid cells and mouse fibroblast cells. The cannabinoids? growth supportive effect did not correlate with their ability to bind to known cannabinoid receptors and showed no stereoselectivity, suggesting a nonreceptor-mediated pathway. Direct measurement with flow cytometry revealed that cannabinoids prevented cell death by antioxidation. The antioxidative property of cannabinoids was supported by the same action of cannabinoids and a-tocopherol in our assays and by the ability of cannabinoids to antagonize the oxidative stress and consequent cell death induced by anhydroretinol. Our results expand on the knowledge that the antioxidative effect of (2)-D9-THC and cannabinol protects cultured rat cortical neurons from glutamate induced excitatory cell death (Hampson et al., 1998). The observed cannabinoids? effect on 5/2 and NIH 3T3 cells may be attributed to their antioxidative property. Human lymphoblastoid 5/2 cells, on Epstein-Barr virus transformation, no longer require cytokines for growth; thus, supplementation with antioxidants alone in serum-free ITLB medium is sufficient to maintain cell growth. However, NIH 3T3 cells arrested by serum-starvation still require growth factors such as PDGF to grow. [3H]Thymidine incorporation quantifies the total number of cycling cells; therefore, it measures both the degree of activation and the survival of activated cells. Our data suggest that cannabinoids may act as antioxidants to prevent oxidative cell death of activated cells occurring under serum-free conditions without directly promoting cell activation. Cannabinoids? antioxidative properties also may explain the conflicting reports about NO release on treatment with cannabinoids in cultured mammalian macrophages (Coffey et al., 1996; Jeon et al., 1996; Stefano et al., 1996). Cannabinoids increase NO release by coupling to their receptors (Stefano et al., 1996). But at higher concentrations antioxidation by cannabinoids dominates, leading to a decrease in NO release by inhibition of the redox-sensitive nuclear factor- kB activation, which is required for the expression of NO-producing enzyme inducible NO synthase (Coffey et al., 1996; Jeon et al., 1996). The potency of the antioxidative activity of naturally occurring and synthetic cannabinoids in our assay agrees with that predicated from their chemical structures (Hampson et al., 1998). (2)-D9-THC, (2)-D8-THC, and cannabinol highly resemble the antioxidant vitamin E and have a benzopyrene moiety substituted with a phenoxyl group and a hydrophobic alkyl chain. Cannabidiol contains a phenolic structure typical of many antioxidants isolated from plants. In contrast, the synthetic cannabinoid WIN 55,212-2 lacks the structural moieties that chemically define the antioxidative activity. Cannabinoids, depending on concentration, exert at least three cellular effects via distinct mechanisms: receptor mediated, antioxidative, and cytotoxic. In immune cells at nanomolar concentrations, cannabinoids bind to CB2 and activate Gia(Bayewitch et al., 1995; Slipetz et al., 1995) and mitogenactivated protein kinases (Bouaboula et al., 1996), thus may enhance cell activation as demonstrated in B-cell proliferation assays (Derocq et al., 1995). The receptor-mediated action is stereospecific and is blocked by the CB2-specific antagonist SR 144528 (Rinaldi-Carmona et al., 1998). At submicromolar concentrations, both receptor-mediated and antioxidative mechanisms are in play. The relative importance of the two mechanisms depends on assay conditions. In low-serum or serum-free conditions, antioxidation may outweigh the CB2-mediated processes; cannabinoids, acting as antioxidants, prevent oxidative cell death and enhance cell proliferation. At concentrations .1026 M, the nonreceptormediated cytotoxic effect of cannabinoids often dominates (Schwarz et al., 1994; Zhu et al., 1998). Cells constantly produce oxidants such as superoxide radical anion, hydrogen peroxide, and lipid peroxide (Scandalios, 1997). They rely on antioxidative enzymes such as superoxide dismutases and catalases, and small-molecule antioxidants such as vitamins A, C, E, and ubiqiunol found in serum to maintain the right balance of cellular redox potential (Frei et al., 1992). Cellular oxidative stress affects cell proliferation and cell death and is involved in physiological as well as pathological events such as fertilization (Shapiro, 1991), host defense (Babior, 1978), aging (Sohal and Weindruch, 1996), tumorigenesis (Cerutti, 1985), stroke (Coyle and Puttfarcken, 1993), and AIDS (Baier-Bitterlich et al., 1996). Cannabinoids, especially the nonpsychoactive cannabinoids, may become clinically useful antioxidants in preventing and treating the oxidative stress-related diseases. enhance human B-cell growth at low nanomolar concentrations. -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.5 - Release Date: 12/26/04 From benboc at lineone.net Wed Jan 12 22:49:42 2005 From: benboc at lineone.net (ben) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:49:42 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <200501121922.j0CJMXK00479@tick.javien.com> References: <200501121922.j0CJMXK00479@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41E5A986.3030205@lineone.net> Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again "in any combination you like" OK, the combination i like is to first put the white zorfs in each urn, then the red ones. ben From mlorrey at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 23:05:37 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:05:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] CA Extropes: Microsoft owes you money Message-ID: <20050112230537.70855.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Microsoft owes you money: If you live in California and purchased Microsoft Windows, Excel or Word between Feb. 18, 1995, and Dec. 15, 2001, you're owed a piece of California's $1.1 billion settlement against Microsoft. The original deadline for filing a claim was Jan. 8, but Microsoft has extended it because of technical problems with the settlement Web site. Claimants now have until Jan. 22 to submit their paperwork, which is a good thing, because far too few people seem to have taken advantage of the offer. In fact, the Settlement Recovery Center (SRC), which assists businesses and non-profits making claims in class actions, recently said fewer than 1 million claims out of a potential 14 million have been filed so far. That's just pathetic. "Companies don't understand what's at stake," said SRC founder and CEO Howard Yellen in a statement. "The Microsoft settlement is great, but it's not well understood. We have quite a few corporate clients who will recover over a million dollars each." Those wishing to collect their "fair share" (and don't forget my birthday on Jan 19th!!!): http://www.settlementrecovery.com/cases/microsoft.jsp http://www.microsoftcalsettlement.com/ ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From pharos at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 23:17:53 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:17:53 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050112145403.01a58ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <004c01c4f8da$8232e8f0$9ceafb44@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050112145403.01a58ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:58:51 -0600, Damien Broderick wrote: > It's much easier on extropy-chat now that any topic at all can be discussed > under the subject line "change of topic". Here's a suggestion that will > make it even easier from now on. Let's make all subject lines read simply: > "topic". Or even easier, leave them blank. Or better still, those people > who don't understand what subject lines are used for (to identify the topic > under discussion) might stop posting altogether. So much neater that way. > Heh! :) It does save space to have everything under one topic. But it makes filtering by subject header rather difficult. >From the Extropy-chat List Guidelines: "Since the topic of discussion on the list can change constantly within a single thread, we ask that the subject lines change accordingly. If you feel that a thread is going off the original topic, that's perfectly fine, but please change the subject line to let all list readers know what the topic has become." ------------------------------- RFC 1855 (Netiquette Guidelines) is rather more stern: "Mail should have a subject heading which reflects the content of the message. Subject lines should follow the conventions of the group. Messages and articles should be brief and to the point. Don't wander off-topic, don't ramble and don't send mail or post messages solely to point out other people's errors in typing or spelling. These, more than any other behavior, mark you as an immature beginner. If you are sending a reply to a message or a posting be sure you summarize the original at the top of the message, or include just enough text of the original to give a context. This will make sure readers understand when they start to read your response. Giving context helps everyone. But do not include the entire original!" ----------------------------------- BillK A : Top Posting Q : What annoys you about Usenet? From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 23:35:26 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:35:26 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] weaponry In-Reply-To: <20050112224049.83576.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050112224049.83576.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41E5B43E.5040107@neopax.com> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Kevin Freels wrote: > > > >>I think that martial arts is a very good way to handle things if they >>get close enough, but personally I prefer to keep my distance if at >>all possible. >> >> > >And a martial artist is still at a disadvantage when an attacker is armed. > > > Unless one is out looking for trouble, or deliberately putting oneself in harms way, the attacker *always* has the initiative. They pick the time, place, mode of attack, weapons, severity etc. In most of the fights I've seen the defender would not have had time to pull a gun, because the first blow was the one that felled them. The gun would only get pulled afterwards, for revenge. And when people have carried weapons eg a knife, again it's invariably the attacker who uses it first (which is what one might expect). The situation where a law abiding citizen is minding their own business in the street and is attacked after a measure of warning (and cannot get away) is extremely unusual. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From reason at longevitymeme.org Wed Jan 12 23:31:51 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:31:51 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] discussing bioconservatism at Imminst Message-ID: <200501121731.AA818151656@longevitymeme.org> An interesting debate on bioconservatism (with a real bioconservative, even) is taking place at the Immortality Institute. I recommend that those of you with well-formed opinions on the matter as it pertains to transhumanism, healthy life extension, the nature of being human, lines, boundaries and whatnot come and join in. http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=5051&hl=&s= Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From dirk at neopax.com Wed Jan 12 23:46:19 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:46:19 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS Message-ID: <41E5B6CB.9070403@neopax.com> http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm Opinions? Anyone in the UK like to try some experimental work on low level field generators for large (ish) volumes eg rooms? And, of course, Persingers work in general with respect to 'hauntings'. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 From sjvans at ameritech.net Wed Jan 12 23:48:33 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 15:48:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050112234833.68730.qmail@web81201.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't > get into debt to > start with and watch your standard of living go up. Yep, that is the trick. If you don't "sell your soul to the company store" you are a lot better off...but once you do, like then, it is a tough trap to get out of. > And don't live some place with a big public school > system. What difference does that make, given how much funding is State and Federal? That throws your calculation way off. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 00:18:16 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Ball lightning In-Reply-To: <41E575E1.3000006@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050113001816.20965.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > I rather doubt the uwave explanation. > The kind of intensity that would create and sustain a ball of plasma > would have serious effects well outside of that zone as well. > I suspect that it is some kind of self confining plasma with very > high currents flowing in very low resistance paths. Given that ball lightning can go through walls, I doubt that plasma has anything to do with it either. With lightning, you are dealing with tens of millions of volts and millions of amps. The amount of energy in this is essentially electrostatic, not electromagnetic in nature. ANY dielectric material can hold a charge field: air, brick, gypsum board, etc. but once established it is the field itself that holds itself until discharged through a conductor. My uncles home was infested by ball lightning once. It came down the chimney, went through a wall, and blew out his television. The number of times I've heard about ball lighting coming down chimneys makes me wonder if it is the bricks, particularly if the chimney has a lightning rod with poor grounding, that help establish the dielectric field. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From jrd1415 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 06:28:08 2005 From: jrd1415 at yahoo.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:28:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transformation of a paradigm? Message-ID: <20050113062808.81263.qmail@web60003.mail.yahoo.com> IBM Gives Open Source Developers Free Access to 500 Patents http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/ap/ap_2011105.asp?trk=nl Shootin' from the hip, wild guess, no time to look into it deeply. IBM, having made a committment to open source, now takes a stab at a business model. Give some of your stuff away to create a demand for your other stuff. Could this be a big little thing, or a little big thing? Time on my hands. Finished the honkin' big solarium on the honkin' big cedar deck I put on the back of the not-at-all-honkin'-big house. But it's cozy. Built the deck last year, the solarium from April this y..., er, well I guess it's last year, now. Faces the Strait of Georgia, two hundred thirty five degrees true. Now we pack for Baja. Best, Jeff Davis Eternity is a long time, especially toward the end. Woody Allen __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 06:30:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:30:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <41E5B6CB.9070403@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic wave of any reasonable coherence? (Sorry, the world's satellite networks *AREN'T* up to the task. Neither are more conventional broadcast networks. And that's assuming either one could be coopted by one central organization, and assumption that is easily shown false if you take a look at the wide range of organizations that actually operate the various satellites and transmitters.) 1a. Specifically, how to do the above with the exceedingly high precision necessary for neural induction? 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that seems to be about as far as anyone's gotten? 3 and most importantly. Even if this were feasable, it would be a rather unextropian act. The ends do not justify the means; eradicating all who oppose us (say, by reprogramming them away) is very unlikely to actually lead to the society that we desire, as demonstrated by the results of comparable approaches (genocide, eugenics) in the past. (A case could be made that it's theoretically possible to achieve what we want by these methods, if one studies why the previous attempts failed. But that is irrelevant here, since this just proposes a new method of controlling people without addressing why trying to control people - regardless of exact method - has failed.) My initial take is that stuff like this has no place on the extropy-chat list...though I might be wrong. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 06:40:52 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:40:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050111201407.94272.qmail@web30003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050113064052.42437.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- Ned Late wrote: > These are first-rate suggestions. And perhaps let > certain children 'merely' obtain decent employment > and not be comprehensively educated until they are > in their late teens & twenties? That's already happening. One problem is, education isn't just a tool, it's an innoculation. There are those who prey upon the adult uneducated, and their first move (if they want a long-term victim) is often to get their prey to reject any further education. Say, by painting "intellectuals" as elitists who don't see the truth that the uneducated are lead to believe, and have little concern (or even active disdain) for the uneducated. Mix bits of truth with things that either can not be disproven or lead to rejection of all attempts to disprove, and...well, you wind up with neoluddites and many of the rest of the people we like to complain about. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 06:50:52 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:50:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050113065053.38069.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- alexboko wrote: > *** What should we do to keep technological progress > humming along > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** Short answer: we don't. If that happens, we've lost. Long answer: learn and practice the technologies yourself. A new dark age can only arise if people stop using modern technology. That hardly seems realistic at this point. People might frown on genetically modified foods and cloning and other new things, but make any serious progress towards halting mechanized farming and you'll get pro-tech food riots almost overnight. Likewise, ban the Internet and you'll find massive civil disobedience, far worse than anything seen during Prohibition. Still, technological progress may be delayed if people get scared away from developing technology; if you take it upon yourself to develop what no one else will (and publish your results, maybe as books or articles, maybe as patents, or if you're really successful as products for sale), then progress on that front continues even if everyone else shies away. From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 07:01:56 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:01:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <840E52AC-6461-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050113070156.15696.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Jan 11, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> This would be equivalent to claiming > >> that chemistry was > >> actually modern alchemy > > > > It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: > there > > is no question among serious historians that > modern > > chemistry had its origins in alchemy. > > Having origins in and being the same as are quite > different things, yes? Yes, but that was not quite what was stated. "Chemistry" != "alchemy", but "chemistry" = "modern alchemy". Note the "modern", which can be read as "has origins in". > Why attempt to twist yourself into a pretzel > like this? To demonstrate why caution should be taken when choosing one's words. ;) In this case, what you probably meant to say was just "chemistry was actually alchemy", not "chemistry was actually modern alchemy". It's semantics, true. But semantics can be (and often are) used by our opponents to twist the meanings of our words far away from what we meant, even while keeping them perfectly in context. This was a relatively minor example. From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 07:15:52 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:15:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Ethics for the Robot Age Message-ID: <470a3c5205011223156a653eb8@mail.gmail.com> Most people's expectations of robots are driven by fantasy. These marvelous machines, optimists hope, will follow Moore's law, doubling in quality every 18 months, and lead to a Jetsonian utopia. Or, as pessimists fear, humanoid bots will reproduce, increase their intelligence, and wipe out humanity. Both visions are wrong. The artificial intelligence to animate robots remains several orders of magnitude less than what's needed. We have to master either software engineering or self-organization before our most intelligent designers can dare play in the same league as Mother Nature. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.01/view.html?pg=1?tw=wn_tophead_5 From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 07:23:41 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 08:23:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Online Dispute Resolution Message-ID: <470a3c5205011223232643d446@mail.gmail.com> Legal IT has a very interesting article on the penetration of advanced IT in the legal world. Leading edge computing will soon provide massive dispute-resolving capability for a fraction of today's price. This growing scale, added to greater connectivity between users around the globe, offers tremendous opportunities to build intelligent systems, i.e. platforms that can adapt to their users' requirements and can learn from experience. Other ODR [online dispute resolution] services have been established to effectively resolve cases themselves. Such systems offer a high degree of sophistication in negotiation and settlement skills, often relying upon artificial intelligence. For example, SmartSettle.com uses mathematical algorithms to help find a resolution to disputes, creating what is frequently described as an 'automated negotiation tool'. This maximises the economic benefits to both parties by creating a low cost process. A world where people will be resolving millions of disputes online. Disputes arising in human resources problems; education; in relationships between government, the people and business; in e-commerce and e-trading; in community and workplace disputes; in business disputes with customers and suppliers; and, of course, 'big-ticket' global commercial disputes. http://www.legalit.net/ViewItem.asp?id=22571 From fauxever at sprynet.com Thu Jan 13 07:39:59 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:39:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <001901c4f943$16568330$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "MB" > Most full time jobs are not 24/7. IMHO if parenting does not come at > or very near the top of the priority list, then the job will likely > not be done well. One is "on call" always, 24/7, which can certainly > call for sacrifce. Well, now, and I've always thought of time away from work as "leisure time." As for being "on call" 24/7 - surely you exaggerate. A lot. I mean, we are always "on call" with everything in life (and with various sorts of emergencies that could befall friends and family - not just children). Except for some unfortunate or unlucky people, the numbers game pretty much guarantees more "leisure time" than "emergency" time during one's life for the rest of us. Children or no children. > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > family, to be personally responsible. Currently (at least in the USA) > personal responsibility is greatly underrated! I'm not sure to what you are referring. I never imputed that I thought children should work (the way some of them used to work before child labor laws were instituted) - I said IMO it was good policy for *adult women* to be self-supporting. > Actually, I 'spect we agree more than our words show. :) I 'spect so, too. Somewhat related to the subject we've been discussing, what do you think of this latest Maureen Dowd column?: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/13/opinion/13dowd.html?oref=login&hp Olga From eugen at leitl.org Thu Jan 13 11:17:02 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:17:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] NASA Releases Free Global Climate Model Software Message-ID: <20050113111702.GP9221@leitl.org> Link: http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/13/0043227 Posted by: samzenpus, on 2005-01-13 06:30:00 from the hurricane-in-the-classroom dept. ink_polaroid writes "NASA [1]has released its [2]Educational Global Climate Model (EdGCM) for high school and university desktop computers. The software incorporates a 3-D climate model developed at NASA's [3]Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS), New York. It wraps complex computer modeling programs with a graphical interface familiar to most PC users." IFRAME: [4]pos6 References 1. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050111/dctu070_1.html 2. http://www.edgcm.org/ 3. http://www.giss.nasa.gov/ 4. http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=2936&alloc_id=13732&site_id=1&request_id=9089608 ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david at ideoware.com Thu Jan 13 17:00:04 2005 From: david at ideoware.com (David McFadzean) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:00:04 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists Message-ID: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> title: Do You Want to Live Forever? source: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 author: Sherwin Nuland quote: If we are ever immolated, it will be by the efforts of well-meaning scientists who are convinced that they have our best interests at heart. We already know who they are. They are the DNA tweakers who would enhance us by allowing parents to choose the genetic makeup of their descendants unto every succeeding generation ad infinitum, heedless of the possibility that breeding out variety may alter factors necessary for the survival of our species and the health of its relationship to every form of life on earth; they are the biogerontologists who study caloric restriction in mice and promise us the extension by 20 percent of a peculiarly nourished existence; they are those other biogerontologists who emerge from their laboratories of molecular science every evening optimistic that they have come just a bit closer to their goal of having us live much longer, downplaying the unanticipated havoc at both the cellular and societal level that might be wrought by their proposed manipulations. And finally, it is the unique and strangely alluring figure of Aubrey de Grey, who, orating, writing, and striding tirelessly through our midst with his less than fully convinced sympathizers, proclaims like the disheveled herald of a new-begotten future that our most inalienable right is to have the choice of living as long as we wish. With the passion of a single-minded zealot crusading against time, he has issued the ultimate challenge, I believe, to our entire concept of the meaning of humanness. From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 17:01:47 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:01:47 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] fwd: The Genre Evolution Project Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113110049.01a61ec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> "The Genre Evolution Project is testing the hypothesis that cultural creations evolve in the same way as biological organisms, that is, as complex adaptive systems that succeed or fail according to their fitness to their environment and, by their existence and success, modify their environment. The project presents many challenges. - How does one define the key characteristics of a cultural creation? - How does one define the key components of the cultural environment? - How does one test hypotheses in cultural evolution? "The Genre Evolution Project began in January, 1998. As a test case, the GEP currently focuses on science fiction short stories in America of the 20th century. Membership in the GEP team is arranged through the principal investigators, Eric Rabkin and Carl Simon. Individual team members participate either as purely voluntary researchers or through some more institutionalized mechanism such as independent study or the Undergraduate Research Opportunity Program." http://www.umich.edu/~genreevo/ From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 18:08:47 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 10:08:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> Message-ID: <20050113180847.69832.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> --- David McFadzean wrote: > title: Do You Want to Live Forever? > source: > http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 > author: Sherwin Nuland Check their forums: reader feedback has been solidly negative against Nuland's article. One even suggested that Mr. de Grey be allowed an equal-sized article rebutting this feature article. Two cover articles on the same topic in two months in close proximity would seem a bit much, but perhaps he would care to contact the editors of this magazine and point out what their own readers are literally asking for? From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 18:35:41 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:35:41 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> References: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >title: Do You Want to Live Forever? >source: >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 >author: Sherwin Nuland This statement is typical yet strange: `When our inherent biology decrees'. But pragmatically `our inherent biology' seemed perfectly content for almost every human in history and prehistory to perish at about half that maximum, if not very much sooner. I deplore this sad hankering after an essentialist `decree' that allows doctors like Nuland to squeeze the last drop out of what is in nature wildly`*un*natural' while clinging to some masked version of authoritative or `sacred' prohibition. Nuland's essay is notable as well for its whiny and reiterated complaints about Aubrey's intelligence and energy. (What a nerve! Being smart! Being confident! Being articulate!) I expect to see this sort of complaint in Halfwits Review, not Technology Review. Damien Broderick From alexboko at umich.edu Thu Jan 13 18:41:02 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:41:02 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? Message-ID: <41E6C0BE.2090901@umich.edu> Adrian Tymes wrote: > Short answer: we don't. If that happens, we've lost. I'm a transhumanist. I don't accept defeat preemptively. For any problem and level of information about that problem, there is at least one solution with the greatest chance of a favorable outcome. I want us to start looking for that solution, and when we find it, I want us to start implementing it. > Long answer: learn and practice the technologies > yourself. A new dark age can only arise if people > stop using modern technology. No, that's not the only way a new dark age can arise. Here are a few more: A. Climate change B. Depletion of feasibly extractable resources (including energy) C. War D. Tyranny E. Long-term economic depression F. Nuclear/biological/chemical attack G. Plague It doesn't even have to be a full-on medieval time. Rolling back to the 1800's would be enough to guarantee permanent death for most or all of those alive today plus those already in cryosuspension. There has to be a failsafe. From ag24 at gen.cam.ac.uk Thu Jan 13 18:58:21 2005 From: ag24 at gen.cam.ac.uk (Aubrey de Grey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:58:21 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists Message-ID: That's nothing -- check out the accompanying commentaries: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp Cheers, Aubrey From pgptag at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 19:02:31 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:02:31 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <20050113180847.69832.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> References: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> <20050113180847.69832.qmail@web81604.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <470a3c5205011311022c1f7dc9@mail.gmail.com> I just posted this comment on the TR comment forum for the article: --- Yes I do want to live forever, and don't see what is wrong with this. As soon as science and technology will permit defeating aging and death, which are, as Aubrey de Grey says, diseases (actually painful and horrible diseases), we will take advantage of such new options, as our species has done since the dawn of time. Thank you Aubrey for issuing the ultimate challenge, Mr. Nuland believes, to our entire concept of the meaning of humanness. Of course Mr. Nuland does not offer any definition of this "meaning of humanness", nor any rational argument in defense of his irrational ideas. --- and I can see that all readers who posted comments so far disagree with the author and support Aubrey. From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Jan 13 19:27:15 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:27:15 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: Well, it sorta sounds like re-enacting the Foundation Trilogy! Preparation and archiving are very wise even if bad times do not come. It's always good to know where you came from. Regards, MB On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Samantha Atkins wrote: > You make very good points and bring up excellent questions. > > > > > > > > *** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along > > should the world collapse into another dark age? *** > > The short and of necessity first answer is that we can in no wise allow > the world to collapse into another dark age. The question is how to > avoid it. [...] > The most > likely minimalist scenario is a (hate this) sort of secret > society/priesthood guarding and maintaining the knowledge. > > > > > > Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" > > suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but > > here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't > > bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're > > dead. Let's be pragmatic. From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 19:25:38 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 11:25:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050112234833.68730.qmail@web81201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050113192538.40227.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > > > The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't > > get into debt to > > start with and watch your standard of living go up. > > Yep, that is the trick. If you don't "sell your soul > to the company store" you are a lot better off...but > once you do, like then, it is a tough trap to get out > of. > > > And don't live some place with a big public school > > system. > > What difference does that make, given how much funding > is State and Federal? That throws your calculation > way off. Depends on the state you are in. Here in NH, we have no income or sales tax at the state or local level. There are local, county, and state property taxes, so their burden is proportionate to your property valuation. Property valuation is largely impacted by regulation. Restrictive zoning, planning, and other ordinances increase market value of property by creating artificial scarcity, ergo the way to minimize your tax burden is to live in an area with no such ordinances in place. Having a large geographic area with few children needing education and a high incidence of homeschooling/private schooling among those who do also helps reduce your tax burden. However, my calculus of the previous post is more of a macroeconomic model. Few, if any, people with three kids pay $27,000 in taxes to educate their kids. That burden is spread around among many people without kids: young single people, elderly retired people, childless couples, in a way that is morally illegitimate. Those that have kids already seek to use public policy to close the door on those who want kids in order to prevent increasing the public education tax burden. Economically exiling young breeding couples who earn below the median income is a common occurence in many communities through the use of regulation to prevent housing development. Communities that do not have the ability to become high value, high income enclaves can only reduce their tax burden by reducing and/or eliminating the centralized public school infrastructure, decentralizing the public school system to a network of small neighborhood schools/resource centers similar to the sort of one room school house system that grew in the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that created the highest level of literacy in our history. The era of the behemoth super-school is over. The cost of such infrastructure is a relic of the union movement toward monopolizing the educational labor supply and does not add value to the education of children. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 19:55:50 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:55:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113134616.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> But wait, there's more: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp < But what struck me is that he is a troll. For all de Grey's vaulting ambitions, what Sherwin Nuland saw from the outside was pathetically circumscribed. In his waking life, de Grey is the computer support to a research team; he dresses like a shabby graduate student and affects Rip Van Winkle's beard; he has no children; he has few interests outside the science of biogerontology; he drinks too much beer. Although he is only 41, the signs of decay are strongly marked on his face. > My god! Aubrey doesn't wear a suit! He's (by implication) a drunk! He works with computers! Aging destroys your boyish looks! (Oh wait, isn't that one of the reasons for wishing not to suffer the effects of aging? Oh wait once more, didn't Nuland just write that `he is a boyishly handsome man'?) http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp And this is such a penetrating sentence: < What does Nuland think of the bearded de Grey's offer of immortality? > A beard! That surely shows what nonsense his claims must be! Damien Broderick From alexboko at umich.edu Thu Jan 13 20:06:50 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:06:50 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism Message-ID: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> All of us are deeply vested in a complex, high-tech society. We are staking almost everything on the assumption that this society will not collapse the way every great civilization before us did. I humbly propose that we dedicate some fraction of our intelligence to putting together a contingency plan in case we're wrong. The stereotypical "survivalist" strategy is forming a small, isolated community in an easily farmed area with naturally occurring fresh water, and reliance on technology that does not require a large infrastructure to produce. If you are satisfied with such a lifestyle, now is the time for you to actively start seeking out or forming such a community. I sincerely wish you the best-- if you succeed perhaps someday we will be allies and trading partners. The more survival strategies are in play, the better it will be for the human species. However, there are those individuals for whom a low-tech lifestyle is not acceptable. For instance, people with chronic illnesses that require advanced medical intervention; people whose sense of purpose is intimately tied to technology; people who wish to preserve our cultural and scientific acchievements for future generations. These individuals can still find hope in re-examining the assumption that a low-tech lifestyle is the only sustainable lifestyle. I invite these individuals to join me in planning for a community that will be resilient to most collapse scenarios. I. Plan A. Brainstorming i. This document will be opened for comments and revision and then finalized as a draft. A procedure for reopening the document for updates will be decided. A system for decisionmaking will be implemented to insure each question is deliberated with as much objectivity and insight as possible. ii. A venue will be decided for this and future document-related activities-- mailing list, wiki, Sourceforge, etc. iii. As necessary, temporary working groups will be formed for the purpose of in-depth development of various parts of the plan. iv. Individuals posessing strategic skills, knowledge, and resources will be recruited to the project and directed toward the appropriate working group. B. Draft plan C. Venture capital acquisition D. Physical implementation II. Possible causes of collapse. Remember, ideology has no place here. We are not interested either in alarmism or denial. What we are interested in figuring out what to expect from each scenario and its likelihood of happening. A. Climate change B. Depletion of feasibly extractable resources (including energy) C. War D. Tyranny E. Long-term economic depression F. Nuclear/biological/chemical attack G. Plague III. Underlying Assumptions A. By definition, once a collapse occurs, there can be no broad-ranging governmental solution (although public policy measures might be used to buy more time before the collapse). B. Economics, politics, and culture are real, if not always well-understood, factors that must be anticipated for any plan to succeed. A plan that only factors in technical feasibility is doomed from the start. C. Only people the plan can rely on are the participants, and the only resouces the plan can rely on are the resources controlled by the participants. Every step of the plan must be feasibly acchievable with what we have at hand. D. The plan cannot rely on any technologies that are not already mature (cheap space travel, fusion, nanotechnology, AI), but it must be flexible enough to take advantage of them if and when they are developed. E. The plan must make a good faith effort to comply with the laws of the relevant jurisdictions. The plan must respect individual freedom. F. The plan must assume a 50 year time window to implementation at maximum. It should strive for at least partial implementation within 10 years. G. Politics, ideology, religion, all take a back seat to pragmatism. The primary criterion must always be "DOES it work?" not "SHOULD it work?" H. The plan must be fully transparent to its participants, and constantly seek ways to improve. IV. Basic strategies. A. Global population control Looking for alternatives to governmental coercion for rapidly reducing population pressure; educating the public and decision-makers about these alternatives. This is unlikely to eliminate the risk of collapse, but may delay its onset and severity. B. Recruitment Identifying individuals with strategic skills/knowledge/resources and persuading them to join the project. C. 'Leibowitz' project Ever read Canticle for Leibowitz? If you have, you'll know what I mean by this. The centerpiece of the plan-- a sustainable community that manages not only to preserve but extend the boundaries of scientific knowledge no matter what chaos engulfs the world beyond its borders. V. The most crucial questions A. How can we buy more time? B. How much time do we need to buy? C. What are the crucial lines of R&D that must continue to be pursued no matter what? D. What is the minimal shopping list of manufactured goods needed to allow these lines of R&D to continue? E. What is the minimal shopping list of raw materials needed to continue the crucial lines of R&D as well as supply them with the manufactured goods they require? F. Which manufactured goods and raw materials are feasible to stockpile for the projected time window? G. What are the minimal and maximal numbers of people needed to make adequate progress in the crucial lines of R&D as well as to keep the community self-sufficient? H. What real estate meeting the needs of this community can be feasibly purchased and developed by the members? I. How much cash will this require? J. How can market mechanisms be used to raise this cash? K. How can individual freedom and innovation within the community be optimized without compromising its long term survival? L. How can the community sustainable and scalably expand to recolonize abandoned/depopulated areas? M. What is the most reliable and durable medium for preserving current knowledge, including knowledge that does not directly pertain to the crucial R&D topics? N. How do we prioritize the preservation of knowledge in this medium? I'm interested in what this group has to say about the above draft plan. However, to actually participate in the project, I ask that you email me directly-- alexboko at umich.edu. Please include a phone number (with area code) you can be reached at, the city you live nearest to, any skills/attributes/attributes you feel are relevant to this project, and any thoughts you might like to share. From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 20:26:33 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:26:33 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <41E6A914.9020908@ideoware.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> What's truly extraordinary is that while Dr. Nuland ends by asserting "It is a good thing that his grand design will almost certainly not succeed. Were it otherwise, he would surely destroy us in attempting to preserve us", he makes no attempt at all to show why this might be so, let alone must be. All we get is smarmy handwaving and loaded language: "biogerontologists who study caloric restriction in mice and promise us the extension by 20 percent of a peculiarly nourished existence;" (i.e. not eating like glutted swine on fats and sugars until we expire from our self-inflicted obesity) "if we are to accept de Grey's first principle, that the desire to live forever trumps every other factor in human decision-making, then self-interest--or what some might call narcissism--will win out in the end." `Narcissism', for what it's worth, is the psychiatric label for basing your self-estimate on the way other people regard you (as Narcissus fell in love with what he took to be the face of another gazing back at him in a mirrored pond). Yet de Grey as portrayed in the article, and in the disgraceful editorials, is quite immune to that kind of socially imposed self-evaluation. How interesting and self-lacerating this error is. But in any case, does the desire to live a maximal healthy life trump *every* other factor? I doubt that Aubrey, or most of those in this forum, would make that claim. The curious thing is that at the basis of the scornful attitudes deployed in those editorials and the essay itself is a conviction that life is `granted' to us--by some supernatural agency, presumably--and that this *does* trump every other factor: "Aging is the condition on which we are given life," we are instructed. Well, I guess that settles it. No further argument is required. Luckily, because none is offered. Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 20:35:53 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 12:35:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Deconstructing Nuland In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113121940.019cdec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050113203553.77616.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/feature_aging.asp?p=0 > >author: Sherwin Nuland > > This statement is typical yet strange: > > span that nature has granted to our species. Nature has never granted our species any guaranteed minimum or maximum life span. We have long since exceeded that barrier, when savage cro magnon's and even ancient homo sapiens sapiens average life expectancy was MAYBE 30 years (i.e. what "nature" "granted" humanity). > For reasons that are pragmatic, scientific, demographic, economic, > political, social, emotional, and secularly spiritual, I am > committed to the notion that both individual fulfillment and the > ecological balance of life on this planet are best > served by dying when our inherent biology decrees that we do. So, it has nothing to do with 'nature' and everything to do with her political agenda. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 20:51:46 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:51:46 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] message lags? Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113144950.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> I know I'm breaking with tradition by using a subject line other than "change of topic", but I'm reckless that way. Here's the thing: I posted something nearly an hour ago that hasn't shown up yet. Are other people having this trouble? Maybe it's Road Runner. Damien Broderick From jbloch at humanenhancement.com Thu Jan 13 20:52:57 2005 From: jbloch at humanenhancement.com (Joseph Bloch) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:52:57 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Wait a minute. What's our contingency plan? In-Reply-To: References: <41E3FF7C.1040003@umich.edu> <7E1997AC-6460-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <41E6DFA9.70601@humanenhancement.com> I've always liked the idea of the Long Now clock, which incorporates just the sort of archive of information that's been discussed here: http://www.longnow.org/ It's one reason I often use a five-digit date for the year; if for no other reason than to remind myself to always think in the (very) long-term. They've also begun something called the Rosetta Project, which has obvious applications in terms of maintaining knowledge: http://www.rosettaproject.org/ Joseph Enhance your body "beyond well" and your mind "beyond normal": http://www.humanenhancement.com New Jersey Transhumanist Association: http://www.goldenfuture.net/njta MB wrote: >Well, it sorta sounds like re-enacting the Foundation Trilogy! > >Preparation and archiving are very wise even if bad times do not come. >It's always good to know where you came from. > >Regards, >MB > >On Tue, 11 Jan 2005, Samantha Atkins wrote: > > > >>You make very good points and bring up excellent questions. >> >> >> >> >>>*** What should we do to keep technological progress humming along >>>should the world collapse into another dark age? *** >>> >>> >>The short and of necessity first answer is that we can in no wise allow >>the world to collapse into another dark age. The question is how to >>avoid it. >> >> >[...] > > > >> The most >>likely minimalist scenario is a (hate this) sort of secret >>society/priesthood guarding and maintaining the knowledge. >> >> >> >> >>>Not the government, not some hypothetical investor, not "the public" >>>suddenly getting a clue, but we, us. Not just technically feasible, but >>>here and now, with the resources we have at our disposal. Please don't >>>bring politics/ideology into this. They'll be cold comfort when you're >>>dead. Let's be pragmatic. >>> >>> >_______________________________________________ >extropy-chat mailing list >extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org >http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > > > > From thespike at satx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 20:58:06 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:58:06 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] message lags? 2 Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113145615.01997cd0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> I should have added that my messages *have* appeared already in the archive. Just wondering if there's a lag in vectoring posts out to other extropy-chat subscribers? BTW, Mike, Sherwin Nuland is a he not a she: http://www.holy-cross.com/professionals/stluke/DrNuland.htm Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 21:09:45 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:09:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <00aa01c4f81c$be3c1d80$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050113210945.17348.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I don't think that the decade of the '50s was merely a repressive nightmare. Besides we're second-guessing history, the '40s were even worse, what with WWII. Perhaps we should have avoided that big ugly war with a pax Germania & pax Nippon? >Riiiiight ...when you could still get good help and discrimination ruled and segregation was >in flower... >Olga --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 21:25:07 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:25:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] education In-Reply-To: <20050113192538.40227.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050113212507.63413.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The collateral issue is: Are the parents clueless, resulting in them dumping the responsibility for public schools on the government and unions? Also (and this might be going into tinfoil hat territory) there might be a good economic reason for educational mediocrity: the demand for higher wages by semi-illiterate manual laboring native born Americans is great, resulting in greater automation than one would have if firms rely more on foreign labor importation. At least that is how it was explained to me. Mike Lorrey wrote: Few, if any, people with three kids pay $27,000 in taxes to educate their kids. That burden is spread around among many people without kids: young single people, elderly retired people, childless couples, in a way that is morally illegitimate. Those that have kids already seek to use public policy to close the door on those who want kids in order to prevent increasing the public education tax burden. Economically exiling young breeding couples who earn below the median income is a common occurence in many communities through the use of regulation to prevent housing development. Communities that do not have the ability to become high value, high income enclaves can only reduce their tax burden by reducing and/or eliminating the centralized public school infrastructure, decentralizing the public school system to a network of small neighborhood schools/resource centers similar to the sort of one room school house system that grew in the US in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that created the highest level of literacy in our history. The era of the behemoth super-school is over. The cost of such infrastructure is a relic of the union movement toward monopolizing the educational labor supply and does not add value to the education of children. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 21:29:59 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:29:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] red and white zorfs again In-Reply-To: <000001c4f874$8f3cfc90$6401a8c0@mtrainier> Message-ID: <20050113212959.52963.qmail@web81601.mail.yahoo.com> --- spike wrote: > You have N red zorfs, N white zorfs and two large > identical urns. You put all the zorfs into the > urns, in any combination you like, then leave the > room. You ask a random person to enter the room, > choose one of the urns and bring it to you. She > shrieks and flees. You then ask your spouse (with > whom > you are on more familiar terms) to bring you an urn. > > You pull out one zorf without looking. > > Your goal is to pull a red zorf, these being your > faves. > > Question: how do you arrange the red and white zorfs > in the urns such that you maximize the probability > that you will get your red zorf? Can you prove it? > How? Leave the urns open. Put all the red zorfs in one urn and all the white zorfs in another. Make sure to specify in your request for urn fetching that you want the one with the red zorfs. Just because you don't look into the urn doesn't mean your spouse doesn't. (And of course you don't look: your spouse earned your trust before becoming your spouse, and maintained your trust enough for you not to seek a divorce, no?) Even the random person, if she had acted on your request (perhaps she really really doesn't like red zorfs), would have been more likely than not to pick the correct one: color blindness and sociopathy are so rare as to be labelled "disorders". From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 21:37:16 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 13:37:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism In-Reply-To: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050113213716.17511.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> --- alexboko wrote: > II. Possible causes of collapse. > Remember, ideology has no place here. We are > not interested either in alarmism or denial. > What we are interested in figuring out what to > expect from each scenario and its likelihood > of happening. Counterpoint: maybe the best way to survive is to address each possible cause of collapse, and prevent it from happening - or, at least, prevent it from being able to collapse humanity? For example, I myself am working on a possible contributor to a prevention of resource exhaustion, and (long term) would like to work on development of a lunar colony large enough to sustain technological progress even if most of Earth descends into war. (Granted, this inherently requires tech that isn't yet mature - but it looks like it will become mature before civlization could totally collapse. It's not like society could realisitically collapse literally tomorrow, emphasis on "realistically".) From mlorrey at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 22:02:01 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:02:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > > `Narcissism', for what it's worth, is the psychiatric label for > basing your self-estimate on the way other people regard you (as > Narcissus fell in love with what he took to be the face of another > gazing back at him in a mirrored pond). Uh, no, Damien. The common understanding of this myth is that Narcissus had excessive self-love, which is what narcissism is classified as by pshrinks. Ergo, any behavior that is deemed too 'selfish', ego-centric, self-involved, is claimed to be narcissistic in nature. If you care more about your immortality than the survival of the greater ecology, according to the critic in this article, you are therefore 'narcissistic' for being so selfish. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From astapp at fizzfactorgames.com Thu Jan 13 22:02:02 2005 From: astapp at fizzfactorgames.com (Acy James Stapp) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:02:02 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism Message-ID: <725F1C117A3EF440A4190D786B8053FE01F3B20E@amazemail2.amazeent.com> This is good but I think you need to factor your possible causes of collapse more carefully. At the lowest level, we want to prevent technological stagnation or collapse. There are many necessary conditions for technological progress. Facilities and infrastructure, demand for technology, availability of funding, availability of researchers, and sufficient population to maintain society are good examples. Failure of any of these conditions will halt progress. Social devastation will likely reverse progress. Each of these conditions can be triggered by several means. War could destroy facilities and infrastructure, and focus research demand and funding on weaponry. A human plague would destroy the population necessary to support a social infrastructure and would focus research on biotechnology. A totalitarian government could strongly inhibit research except that which helps maintain the status quo and bolster the power of those in charge. Massive climate change could destroy infrastructure as well as population. A food plage which destroyed monoculture would just as surely cause loss of human life as a plague directly on humans. Resource depletion would focus research on means to increase availability and efficiency of resource use. An extraterrestrial extinction event such as an asteroid strike or unexpected solar event could also be devastating. An economic collapse would remove the ability to continue progress just as surely. Finally we get to the motive. Some of these things will happen unless we take action to stop them, such as resource depletion. Some need preventative preparation, such as an asteroid strike. But most failures would be due to social forces such as religious fundamentalism, fear of technology and the future, ultraconsumerism, and tyrrany. We need to consider all three of these levels when determining contingency plans. One plan will most likely not be sufficient. We also can not afford to ignore the contingency planning which has already been done by survivalist organizations, governments, and other groups. We will gain the most leverage by immediately working to shape the social forces which could guide us into a dark age and avoid a collapse entirely. Next most important is minimizing the effect of any collapse event and preserving as much of society as possible. Least important is recovering from a collapse. Acy From eugen at leitl.org Thu Jan 13 22:24:19 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:24:19 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism In-Reply-To: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> References: <41E6D4DA.1050408@umich.edu> Message-ID: <20050113222419.GI9221@leitl.org> On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 02:06:50PM -0600, Alex F. Bokov wrote: > All of us are deeply vested in a complex, > high-tech society. We are staking almost Yes. > everything on the assumption that this > society will not collapse the way every > great civilization before us did. I humbly Yes. Because we're screwed, if it happens. At least, until systems are self-maintaining, if not evolving. > propose that we dedicate some fraction of > our intelligence to putting together a > contingency plan in case we're wrong. > > The stereotypical "survivalist" strategy is > forming a small, isolated community in an > easily farmed area with naturally occurring > fresh water, and reliance on technology that > does not require a large infrastructure to > produce. I really like Vinge, but there are a few points which stroke me against the fur. A leading theme in his oevre is a ridiculously fast advance of a small band of people. About every second person is a genius and shaper to put Ayn Rand to shame. It's a nice ideal society, but not exactly realistic. A genius-grade society would be easily two orders of magnitude more dynamic (if support is done by automation), but it's not obvious we'd get lots of geniuses in a land overflowing with milk & honey. And anything else would just fall back to a far more primitive state of technology. > If you are satisfied with such a lifestyle, > now is the time for you to actively start > seeking out or forming such a community. I If you can't get liquid nitrogen, or at least enough energy for sustained -150 C refrigeration until the new Dark Ages are over, you're screwed. There's not enough critical mass in a small bands of people to keep status quo afloat. At least, with current level of technology. If you want knowledge to survive, that's relatively easy: just bury lots of compact libraries (Rosetta stones included), where one will be eventually discovered. However, it will be of no direct use to anyone who's soaking in one of these long dark teatimes of the soul. > sincerely wish you the best-- if you succeed > perhaps someday we will be allies and trading > partners. The more survival strategies are in > play, the better it will be for the human > species. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mbb386 at main.nc.us Thu Jan 13 22:49:58 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:49:58 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Parenting (was change of topic) In-Reply-To: <001901c4f943$16568330$6600a8c0@brainiac> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com><019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin><00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac><3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <001901c4f943$16568330$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2005, Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: "MB" > > > Putting little ones to work with us ASAP is fine, however our friendly > > government is kinda frowning on that nowadays. It is, IMO, part of > > parenting, training the young to work, to be contributing parts of the > > family, to be personally responsible. Currently (at least in the USA) > > personal responsibility is greatly underrated! > > I'm not sure to what you are referring. I never imputed that I thought > children should work (the way some of them used to work before child labor > laws were instituted) - I said IMO it was good policy for *adult women* to > be self-supporting. My confusing response. I lumped your email and Samantha's email on the same subject. In olden times children worked at home, either really *working* as on farms, or doing "chores" around the house (which IM experience was mostly make-work). This could assuage some of the work involved with parenting - although I think S and I were talking past each other a bit. Then Kevin added that children still were allowed to work for the family business. But to me even these do not alleviate the 24/7 responsibility of parents. *Especially when children are young.* > > Somewhat related to the subject we've been discussing, what do you think of > this latest Maureen Dowd column?: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/13/opinion/13dowd.html?oref=login&hp That's an old tune that's been played before. IMHO there is some truth in it. Quite sad. Some men feel threatened by smart successful women, some men do not. There's a lot to be said for a loving heart and gentle demeanor. It's easier to live with, much of the time. Perhaps (some? many? most?) smart women who are successful in the business world are more "pushy"? It's hard to turn off the work persona at 5 PM. Maybe men feel pushed at work and do not want to feel pushed at home. Regards, MB From wingcat at pacbell.net Thu Jan 13 23:37:40 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:37:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] message lags? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113144950.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050113233740.91346.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Damien Broderick wrote: > I know I'm breaking with tradition by using a > subject line other than > "change of topic", but I'm reckless that way. Now, now, it wasn't the subject for *all* the discussions of late. Just perhaps too many. > Here's > the thing: I posted > something nearly an hour ago that hasn't shown up > yet. Are other people > having this trouble? Maybe it's Road Runner. I've been experiencing more lag in message-sent-to-message-in-my-inbox time over the past few days, but not an hour's worth. Just enough minutes to be noticeable. From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 14 01:20:18 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:20:18 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113191257.01a3aec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 02:02 PM 1/13/2005 -0800, Mike wrote: > > > `Narcissism', for what it's worth, is the psychiatric label for > > basing your self-estimate on the way other people regard you (as > > Narcissus fell in love with what he took to be the face of another > > gazing back at him in a mirrored pond). > >Uh, no, Damien. The common understanding of this myth is that Narcissus >had excessive self-love, which is what narcissism is classified as by >pshrinks. I'm asserting that this is the common *mis*understanding. but I wn't insist on these for fear of appearing narcissistic. :) http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html has some simplified translations of the DSM IV category, e.g.: 1. An exaggerated sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) Translation: Grandiosity is the hallmark of narcissism. So what is grandiose? The simplest everyday way that narcissists show their exaggerated sense of self-importance is by talking about family, work, life in general as if there is nobody else in the picture. Whatever they may be doing, in their own view, they are the star, and they give the impression that they are bearing heroic responsibility for their family or department or company, that they have to take care of everything because their spouses or co-workers are undependable, uncooperative, or otherwise unfit. ... 3. Believes he is "special" and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) Translation: Narcissists think that everyone who is not special and superior is worthless. By definition, normal, ordinary, and average aren't special and superior, and so, to narcissists, they are worthless. 4. Requires excessive admiration Translation: Excessive in two ways: they want praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better than what others can do. Sincerity is not an issue here; all that matter are frequency and volume. [This latter is relevant to what I was saying. As is:] The preferred theory seems to be that narcissism is caused by very early affective deprivation, yet the clinical material tends to describe narcissists as unwilling rather than unable, thus treating narcissistic behaviors as volitional -- that is, narcissism is termed a personality disorder, but it tends to be discussed as a character disorder. [Not being loved in infancy creates, on this model, a dreadful yearning for acknowledgement by a heedless world, often leading to bouts of depression. One way to compensate is grandiose delusions of self-worth. But these are generally self-corrosive when they are not based on reality. Luckily, most of the geniuses on this list are at no risk of this sad fate.] Damien Broderick From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Jan 14 02:21:28 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:21:28 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history References: <20050113210945.17348.qmail@web30005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008801c4f9df$c1d2d6e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: Ned Late > I don't think that the decade of the '50s was merely a repressive nightmare. Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "repressive nightmare," but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly real for many, many people. > Besides we're second-guessing history, the '40s were even worse, what with WWII. Perhaps we should have avoided that big ugly war with a pax Germania & pax Nippon? Well, I wasn't comparing decades - and I was talking principally about life in the United States (not what was happening in Germany, Japan or - horror of horrors - Stalingrad - all undeniably sad episodes in world history), but since you brought this up (and from the American perspective) - certainly, some things got better in the 1950s (e.g., desegregation of the military, polio vaccine was discovered), but some things got worse (women didn't work outside the home as much as they had done in the 1940s). Olga -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sentience at pobox.com Fri Jan 14 04:06:19 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:06:19 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113191257.01a3aec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113141022.019dfec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> <20050113220201.88501.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050113191257.01a3aec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41E7453B.60704@pobox.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > > The preferred theory seems to be that narcissism is caused by very early > affective deprivation, Clinical psychology is sheer plausible nonsense in all its bickering brand names. On those occasions when a brand name is tested experimentally, it fails, and the clinical psychologists go on practicing without pause. Is this theory "preferred" because of even the tiniest shred of experimental evidence? My advice is to assume that this sort of theorizing is complete nonsense unless someone cites experimental evidence with a journal reference; and even then, given the sad state of the field, I would not trust it. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 14 11:51:41 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:51:41 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cassini-Huygens Message-ID: The Huygens probe is now descending in Titan's atmosphere, and the transmitted data is successfully being received at the Earth ground stations. Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 14:40:04 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 06:40:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <008801c4f9df$c1d2d6e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050114144004.22252.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > From: Ned Late > > > I don't think that the decade of the '50s was merely a repressive > nightmare. > > Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "repressive nightmare," > but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws > (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay > people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were > concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure > segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and > medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, > movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal > abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth > control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal > child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against > sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... > will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was > "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" > variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly > real for many, many people. Outside of the McCarthyism, everything else you speak of existed long before the 50's. In fact, it was the 50's when all of these things started getting questioned. As for McCarthyism, it is now a proven fact that all of McCarthy's accusations were accurate. The release of the Venona files in the last decade document who was and was not a Soviet spy, and documents the fact that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations specifically suppressed this evidence because it implicated their own people (Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White, among others). The only outrageous thing about that issue was the fact that Democrats were able to get away with their histrionics and treason. > > > Besides we're second-guessing history, the '40s were even worse, > what with WWII. Perhaps we should have avoided that big ugly war with > a pax Germania & pax Nippon? > > Well, I wasn't comparing decades - and I was talking principally > about life in the United States (not what was happening in Germany, > Japan or - horror of horrors - Stalingrad - all undeniably sad > episodes in world history), but since you brought this up (and from > the American perspective) - certainly, some things got better in the > 1950s (e.g., desegregation of the military, polio vaccine was > discovered), but some things got worse (women didn't work outside the > home as much as they had done in the 1940s). > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 14 15:02:50 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:02:50 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Cassini-Huygens Message-ID: I should have been much more specific in my previous message. The transmitter signal was tracked from Earth from the Huygens probe and it tracked it for the ~2.5 hours of its descent. That's finished now. Here is the full sequence of data acquisition and return today. I don't think any data 'quicklook' data analysis is expected until late tonight (~11pm CET). The first Huygens data is expected at ESOC in Darmstadt at about 5:15pm CET. http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMQOI71Y3E_0.html 6.51 Timer triggers power-up of onboard electronics Triggered by a pre-set timer, Huygens's onboard electronics power up and the transmitter is set into low-power mode, awaiting the start of transmission. 11.13 Huygens reaches 'interface altitude' The 'interface altitude' is defined as 1270 kilometres above the surface of the moon where entry into Titan's atmosphere takes place. 11.17 Pilot parachute deploys The parachute deploys when Huygens detects that it has slowed to 400 metres per second, at about 180 kilometres above Titan's surface. The pilot parachute is the probe's smallest, only 2.6 metres in diameter. Its sole purpose is to pull off the probe's rear cover, which protected Huygens from the frictional heat of entry. 2.5 seconds after the pilot parachute is deployed, the rear cover is released and the pilot parachute is pulled away. The main parachute, which is 8.3 metres in diameter, unfurls. 11.18 Huygens begins transmitting to Cassini and front shield released At about 160 kilometres above the surface, the front shield is released. 42 seconds after the pilot parachute is deployed, inlet ports are opened up for the Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer and Aerosol Collector Pyrolyser instruments, and booms are extended to expose the Huygens Atmospheric Structure Instruments. The Descent Imager/Spectral Radiometer will capture its first panorama, and it will continue capturing images and spectral data throughout the descent. The Surface Science Package will also be switched on, measuring atmospheric properties. 11.32 Main parachute separates and drogue parachute deploys The drogue parachute is 3 metres in diameter. At this level in the atmosphere, about 125 kilometres in altitude, the large main parachute would slow Huygens down so much that the batteries would not last for the entire descent to the surface. The drogue parachute will allow it to descend at the right pace to gather the maximum amount of data. 11.49 Surface proximity sensor activated Until this point, all of Huygens's actions have been based on clock timers. At a height of 60 kilometres, it will be able to detect its own altitude using a pair of radar altimeters, which will be able to measure the exact distance to the surface. The probe will constantly monitor its spin rate and altitude and feed this information to the science instruments. All times after this are approximate. 12.57 Gas Chromatograph Mass Spectrometer begins sampling atmosphere This is the last of Huygens's instruments to be activated fully. The descent is expected to take 137 minutes in total, plus or minus 15 minutes. Throughout its descent, the spacecraft will continue to spin at a rate of between 1 and 20 rotations per minute, allowing the camera and other instruments to see the entire panorama around the descending spacecraft. 13.30 Descent Imager/Spectral Radiometer lamp turned on Close to the surface, Huygens's camera instrument will turn on a light. The light is particularly important for the 'Spectral Radiometer' part of the instrument to determine the composition of Titan's surface accurately. 13.34 Surface touchdown This time may vary by plus or minus 15 minutes depending on how Titan's atmosphere and winds affect Huygens's parachuting descent. Huygens will hit the surface at a speed of 5-6 metres per second. Huygens could land on a hard surface of rock or ice or possibly land on an ethane sea. In either case, Huygens's Surface Science Package is designed to capture every piece of information about the surface that can be determined in the three remaining minutes that Huygens is designed to survive after landing. 15.44 Cassini stops collecting data Huygens's landing site drops below Titan's horizon as seen by Cassini and the orbiter stops collecting data. Cassini will listen for Huygens's signal as long as there is the slightest possibility that it can be detected. Once Huygens's landing site disappears below the horizon, there's no more chance of signal, and Huygens's work is finished. 16.14 First data sent to Earth Cassini first turns its high-gain antenna to point towards Earth and then sends the first packet of data. Getting data from Cassini to Earth is now routine, but for the Huygens mission, additional safeguards are put in place to make sure that none of Huygens's data are lost. Giant radio antennas around the world will listen for Cassini as the orbiter relays repeated copies of Huygens data. -- Amara Graps, PhD Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 15:25:04 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:25:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050113134616.01a586f0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050114152504.69064.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Just sent in this letter to the editor of TR: To the Editor, Your homily, preaching against technological transcendance is a bit flawed. You state, "When technology appropriates transcendance, it becomes science fiction," yet a few paragraphs earlier you commented on a real-world incident of people seeing DTP publishing of files to books as "a transcendant experience". Are you saying that these real world people and events are fictional simply because they came away from the experience significantly changed? I'm sorry, but you are inappropriately appropriating transcendance for your own personal, narrow, political/religious agenda. Transcendance happens where people find it, wherever they find significantly different and/or self-altering meaning in life. Finding it in real world technology seems far more non-fictional, rational, and real, than in the way many people find it, in that anthology of historical fiction known as.... The Bible. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com From fauxever at sprynet.com Fri Jan 14 15:49:16 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 07:49:16 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history References: <20050114144004.22252.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c4fa50$9ad255e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Mike Lorrey" >> Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "repressive nightmare," >> but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws >> (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay >> people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were >> concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure >> segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and >> medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, >> movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal >> abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth >> control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal >> child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against >> sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... >> will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was >> "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" >> variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly >> real for many, many people. > > Outside of the McCarthyism, everything else you speak of existed long > before the 50's. In fact, it was the 50's when all of these things > started getting questioned. I never said it didn't. I was comparing the 1950s to the way things are now - the 1950s were specifically brought up. And, no, the 1950s decade was not when these things started getting questioned - all these things were being questioned *long before*. Television was bringing America "home" to viewers like nothing else (and one can compare the effect television was having to the "threat" posed by the Internet to the USSR before Glasnost). America simply needed to clean things up at home, as the burden of claiming to be a free democratic country, yet observing de jure segregation for many of its own citizens (along with the garden variety de facto) was getting to be too much to handle. Civil rights legislation was necessary to save America's reputation (and in subsequent yearts, many other groups got on the "we-need-our-rights-too" bandwagon; with the advent of The Pill - even women could finally get uppity and start calling the shots). > As for McCarthyism, it is now a proven fact that all of McCarthy's > accusations were accurate. The release of the Venona files in the last > decade document who was and was not a Soviet spy, and documents the > fact that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations specifically > suppressed this evidence because it implicated their own people (Alger > Hiss and Harry Dexter White, among others). The only outrageous thing > about that issue was the fact that Democrats were able to get away with > their histrionics and treason. I never said they weren't accurate, did I? But you're not saying the McCarthy trials weren't a travesty, are you? The McCarthy trials were a witch hunt, pure and simple - painting even uninvolved people with a broad "red-and-atheist" brush (and, while the floodgates were open and paranoia ruled, letting in some bad legislation). Olga From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 17:26:11 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 09:26:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <000b01c4fa50$9ad255e0$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050114172611.25520.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Olga Bourlin wrote: > > As for McCarthyism, it is now a proven fact that all of McCarthy's > > accusations were accurate. The release of the Venona files in the > > last > > decade document who was and was not a Soviet spy, and documents the > > fact that the Roosevelt and Truman administrations specifically > > suppressed this evidence because it implicated their own people > >(Alger Hiss and Harry Dexter White, among others). The only > > outrageous thing about that issue was the fact that Democrats > > were able to get away with their histrionics and treason. > > I never said they weren't accurate, did I? But you're not saying the > McCarthy trials weren't a travesty, are you? Despite what the media would have you believe, McCarthy never held a trial. Nor did he run the House UnAmerican Activities Committee (he was a Senator, and as such, could not sit on a House committee). While HUAC focused on Hollywood left wingers, in many cases wrongly and without any probable cause other than being ratted out by others (and in other cases not wrongly). McCarthy specifically focused on investigating government officials who were Soviet spies. He was never a judge at any trial. His 'list' was based on actual FBI tallies of public officials, however the FBI and Army intelligence refused to declassify intelligence like the Venona intercepts which would have corroborated McCarthy's assertions. They did this because they were more interested in turning high level ACP officials into double agents. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From thespike at satx.rr.com Fri Jan 14 17:44:55 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:44:55 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] how many exabytes? In-Reply-To: <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050114114324.01a03ba8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 08:28 PM 1/12/2005 +0100, Serafino wrote: >... 5 exabytes: all the words ever spoken > by human beings. >... 6 exabytes: information in the genomes > of all the people in the world. Yeah, but Baez admits: Damien Broderick From amara at amara.com Fri Jan 14 18:01:00 2005 From: amara at amara.com (Amara Graps) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:01:00 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: Huygens: "First visitor to Titan" Some notes from the Cassini-Huygens Press briefing (televised over the ESA channel) This morning showed the first engineering success, this afternoon showed the first scientific success. Meaning that all six instruments performed well during the full 147 minute descent through Titan's atmosphere to the ground, and then while sitting on the ground, the Huygens probe operated for at least 2 hours on the Titan surface. The Cassini orbiter caught at least that science data (the batteries operate to 7 hours). Then the Cassini orbiter went out of range, as expected. The rest of the Huygens data in engineering mode is being caught by radio telescopes on Earth, where there apparently is a rush of radio astronomers/telescopes "moving westward" to catch that Huygens engineering data. Note that the expectation was to have only a few minutes of Huygens data on the ground. The instruments were insulated well, and operating at 25degC. Huygens has a redundant data science systems: two channels, one is not transmitting data for some reason (yet unknown), while the other channel has sent all of the science data: i.e. zero "lost packets". Since all instruments operated perfectly, the science data is expected to be great; "for posterity", J.P Lebreton said. Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of this mission: 25 years since conception, two generations of scientists, thousands of engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries involved. The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see them, but you should probably start here: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ Amara -- Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it From nedlt at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 18:48:17 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:48:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050114144004.22252.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050114184817.39533.qmail@web30009.mail.mud.yahoo.com> George F. Will pointed out in 1994 that the Clintons were "condemning an entire decade", the 1980s, for being a decade of greed. And it was a decade of greed, yet so were the '70s-- which whelped the '80s. The '90s was also a decade of greed, flollowing as it did both the '70s & '80s. The '50s was the decade when Rosa Parks refused to give up her bus seat for a white patron and go sit in one of the back seats like a good little negress. The '50s was the decade when Chuck Berry almost single handedly invented Rock & Roll; the decade when the Beatniks challenged the status quo. > but widespread housing discrimination, so-called "miscegenation" laws > (in some states), lynchings, outright discrimination against gay > people (just about everywhere), unequal rights where women were > concerned, prayers led by teachers in some public schools, de jure > segregation in the Southern states, unequal access to law schools and > medical schools (and the like), hardly any diversity in politics, > movies, television, books (other than the WASP model), illegal > abortions (out of necessity) - coupled with no really effective birth > control, no real undertanding, concern or protection against corporal > child abuse and sexual child abuse, no protection for women against > sexual harrassment in the workplace, the McCarthy witch hunts ... > will this do for a start? Of course, not every family was > "repressed" (especially if they conformed and/or were of the "innie" > variety), but the repressions - and many nightmares - were cruelly > real for many, many people. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Fri Jan 14 18:52:02 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:52:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of > this mission: > 25 years since conception, two generations of > scientists, thousands of > engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries > involved. Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks out for me, much more than the science data. It takes *that much* to get a lander onto Titan? That's way more than we should have to use. We need to make space exploration far more efficient. From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jan 14 19:41:08 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 20:41:08 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] how many exabytes? In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050114114324.01a03ba8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050111172702.64350.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> <019c01c4f82e$74387e60$9ceafb44@kevin> <00aa01c4f84e$245feb60$6600a8c0@brainiac> <3594F4F0-6466-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> <002501c4f8dc$d5979070$17b81b97@administxl09yj> <6.1.1.1.0.20050114114324.01a03ba8@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050114194108.GJ9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 11:44:55AM -0600, damien wrote: > At 08:28 PM 1/12/2005 +0100, Serafino wrote: > > >... 5 exabytes: all the words ever spoken > > by human beings. > >... 6 exabytes: information in the genomes > > of all the people in the world. Not to mention http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&q=human+ejaculation+bandwidth&btnG=Search ... > Yeah, but Baez admits: > > information in the human genome, and the genomes of all the people in the > world. I didn't try to take into account the immense overlap in genetic > information between different people, nor the repetitive stretches in human > DNA. Here's how I did the calculation. Each of us has chromosomes with > about 5 billion base pairs. Each base pair holds 2 bits of information: A, > T, C, or G. That's 10 billion bits, or 1.25 gigabytes. Times the roughly > 6.5 billion people in the world now, we get about 8 x 10^18 bytes, or 8 > exabytes. They only built 2 exabytes of hard disks in 2002. But, if we > wanted to store the complete genetic identity of everyone on hard drives, > we could easily do it, using data compression, because a lot of genes are > the same from person to person. > Indeedly. A much more interesting question is how much homology is there on a population of human minds, and how to arrive at an efficient encoding starting with raw digitized neuroanatomy. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hibbert at mydruthers.com Fri Jan 14 19:58:59 2005 From: hibbert at mydruthers.com (Chris Hibbert) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:58:59 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41E82483.7040202@mydruthers.com> > The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at > another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC > in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see > them, but you should probably start here: The Exploratorium is planning several webcasts on Huygens. http://www.exploratorium.edu/saturn/cassini.html http://www.exploratorium.edu/webcasts/ Friday, January 14, 2005 10:00 a.m. PST Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:00 p.m. PST What Do the Pictures Mean? Saturday, January 22, 2005 2:00 p.m. PST How Far Have We Gone? They will also be likely to update their website as interesting results become available. Chris -- It is easy to turn an aquarium into fish soup, but not so easy to turn fish soup back into an aquarium. -- Lech Walesa on reverting to a market economy. Chris Hibbert hibbert at mydruthers.com http://mydruthers.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Fri Jan 14 20:45:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:45:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050114204554.23209.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Looks like the mission went quite well, with only the minor hiccup of one of the comm channels being bad. I hope the ESA gets their money's worth of science data. Speaking of money, I was browsing around looking for costs of the Cassini-Hugens mission and found this cost info: Cost of mission: Total: $3.26 billion. US Cost (Cassini): $2.6 billion, ESA: $500 million, Italian Space Agency: $160 million Cassini is a 4 year mission orbiting Saturn (2.1 million minutes) for an orbiter cost of $1236.68 per minute (not counting interest on funds invested 10 or more years ago). That is pretty pricey science, but on a par with, for instance, per minute equivalent of the $200,000 price being charged by Virgin Galactic for a suborbital tourist trip. Not too bad, a lot better and more exotic science than can be had during a gee-whiz ride to the edge of space. The Huygens probe is not quite so cost effective. At $660 million for the combined european effort (I don't know if this accounts for the cost of the hitchhike ride from Earth to Saturn aboard Cassini), for about 4 hours and 26 minutes of science gathering, this results in a cost of $2.48 million per minute of science. Lets hope the science gotten from this is worth it. It should be noted that the Cassini-Huygens mission was the last of the big budget space probe missions. Comparing to other government space probe missions: Mars Rovers (Spirit & Opportunity): Cost: $800 million Science time (to date): 1 million+ Cost per minute of science: $777* * this might be slightly higher due to the troubleshooting of Spirit's flash memory problems. The Mars Rovers have to date set the standard for science value, having conclusively proven the prior existence of significant quantities of water involved in Mars geological history. They are currently on a reduced schedule due to winter sunlight, but are continuing to operate, many months after their designed 90-day mission schedules, and will continue to drive that per minute cost down significantly. Can anyone involved in private science research provide some information as to what cost per minute of science a private research organization would find acceptable? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Jan 14 20:58:02 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:58:02 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello friends, The Arizona folks are posting raw data over here: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/data.htm no sign of a meet&greet - yet. The NASAtv relay through the web has been holding up all day, and the AMC-6 signal is on transponder 9 for any other BUD enthusiasts out there. A happy day for the species. Cheers, Bret Kulakovich On Jan 14, 2005, at 1:01 PM, Amara Graps wrote: > Huygens: "First visitor to Titan" > > Some notes from the Cassini-Huygens Press briefing (televised over > the ESA channel) > > This morning showed the first engineering success, this afternoon > showed the first scientific success. Meaning that all six instruments > performed well during the full 147 minute descent through Titan's > atmosphere to the ground, and then while sitting on the ground, the > Huygens probe operated for at least 2 hours on the Titan surface. The > Cassini orbiter caught at least that science data (the batteries > operate to 7 hours). Then the Cassini orbiter went out of range, as > expected. The rest of the Huygens data in engineering mode is being > caught by radio telescopes on Earth, where there apparently is a rush > of radio astronomers/telescopes "moving westward" to catch that > Huygens engineering data. Note that the expectation was to have only > a few minutes of Huygens data on the ground. The instruments were > insulated well, and operating at 25degC. > > Huygens has a redundant data science systems: two channels, one is not > transmitting data for some reason (yet unknown), while the other > channel has sent all of the science data: i.e. zero "lost packets". > Since all instruments operated perfectly, the science data is expected > to be great; "for posterity", J.P Lebreton said. > > Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of this mission: > 25 years since conception, two generations of scientists, thousands of > engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries involved. > > The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at > another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC > in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see > them, but you should probably start here: > > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ > > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From bret at bonfireproductions.com Fri Jan 14 21:01:13 2005 From: bret at bonfireproductions.com (Bret Kulakovich) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:01:13 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6CB5B8EE-666F-11D9-AAED-000A9591E432@bonfireproductions.com> Yes - I like to refer to it as a "typing pool" - when companies employed a room full of 50 secretaries to type out carbon copies. I wonder if people could tell, then, that the whole setup was about to go passenger pigeon? Where is our next Xerox machine? Our next DTP? Bret Kulakovich is very happy about Titan. On Jan 14, 2005, at 1:52 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks out > for me, much more than the science data. It takes > *that much* to get a lander onto Titan? That's way > more than we should have to use. We need to make > space exploration far more efficient. > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > From hal at finney.org Fri Jan 14 21:56:07 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050114215607.B88F357E2B@finney.org> There are some great images up at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ . Oddly, the caption on the second one reads, "This is one of the first raw images returned by the ESA Huygens probe during its successful descent. It was taken from an altitude of 16.2 kilometres with a resolution of approximately 40 metres per pixel. It apparently shows short, stubby drainage channels leading to a shoreline." http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMCXM71Y3E_0.html I'd love it for Titan to have oceans, but I can't help noticing that the "liquid" along this "shoreline" appears to have craters in it. That's especially visible in the third picture, which is from a lower altitude: http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMIPO71Y3E_0.html The first picture is taken from the ground, and unfortunately shows a rocky plain that looks pretty much like Mars and Venus, not to mention the deserts of Earth: a plain with rocks on it. http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMBQO71Y3E_0.html Compare with these Venus pictures: http://www.mentallandscape.com/V_DigitalImages.htm The raw images at http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/data.htm are harder to see because they haven't been processed, but it looks like there are a few more which will look good once they've been fixed up. Hal From wincat at swbell.net Fri Jan 14 21:44:19 2005 From: wincat at swbell.net (Win Cat) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:44:19 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c4fa82$343d46a0$8bfc9745@homebase> Zachary might like to see these extremely exciting pictures! -----Original Message----- From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Bret Kulakovich Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 2:58 PM To: ExI chat list Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Hello friends, The Arizona folks are posting raw data over here: http://www.lpl.arizona.edu/~kholso/data.htm no sign of a meet&greet - yet. The NASAtv relay through the web has been holding up all day, and the AMC-6 signal is on transponder 9 for any other BUD enthusiasts out there. A happy day for the species. Cheers, Bret Kulakovich On Jan 14, 2005, at 1:01 PM, Amara Graps wrote: > Huygens: "First visitor to Titan" > > Some notes from the Cassini-Huygens Press briefing (televised over > the ESA channel) > > This morning showed the first engineering success, this afternoon > showed the first scientific success. Meaning that all six instruments > performed well during the full 147 minute descent through Titan's > atmosphere to the ground, and then while sitting on the ground, the > Huygens probe operated for at least 2 hours on the Titan surface. The > Cassini orbiter caught at least that science data (the batteries > operate to 7 hours). Then the Cassini orbiter went out of range, as > expected. The rest of the Huygens data in engineering mode is being > caught by radio telescopes on Earth, where there apparently is a rush > of radio astronomers/telescopes "moving westward" to catch that > Huygens engineering data. Note that the expectation was to have only > a few minutes of Huygens data on the ground. The instruments were > insulated well, and operating at 25degC. > > Huygens has a redundant data science systems: two channels, one is not > transmitting data for some reason (yet unknown), while the other > channel has sent all of the science data: i.e. zero "lost packets". > Since all instruments operated perfectly, the science data is expected > to be great; "for posterity", J.P Lebreton said. > > Some teary eyes in the room recounting the years of this mission: > 25 years since conception, two generations of scientists, thousands of > engineers, hundreds of scientists, 19 countries involved. > > The first science results (for example: images) will be shown at > another press briefing at about 20:45 CET this evening from ESOC > in Darmstadt. I don't know the best web site in which to see > them, but you should probably start here: > > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ > > > Amara > > -- > > Amara Graps, PhD www.amara.com > Istituto di Fisica dello Spazio Interplanetario (IFSI) > Istituto Nazionale di Astrofisica (INAF), > Adjunct Assistant Professor Astronomy, AUR, > Roma, ITALIA Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.11 - Release Date: 1/12/2005 From eugen at leitl.org Fri Jan 14 22:47:29 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:47:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050114204554.23209.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050114204554.23209.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 12:45:54PM -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > Speaking of money, I was browsing around looking for costs of the > Cassini-Hugens mission and found this cost info: > > Cost of mission: Total: $3.26 billion. US Cost (Cassini): $2.6 billion, > ESA: $500 million, Italian Space Agency: $160 million Negligible, if compared to what people spend on military programs, or spectator sports. > Cassini is a 4 year mission orbiting Saturn (2.1 million minutes) for > an orbiter cost of $1236.68 per minute (not counting interest on funds > invested 10 or more years ago). That is pretty pricey science, but on a > par with, for instance, per minute equivalent of the $200,000 price > being charged by Virgin Galactic for a suborbital tourist trip. Not too > bad, a lot better and more exotic science than can be had during a > gee-whiz ride to the edge of space. There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. It's all been done in 1960s with Laika et al. SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. > The Huygens probe is not quite so cost effective. At $660 million for > the combined european effort (I don't know if this accounts for the > cost of the hitchhike ride from Earth to Saturn aboard Cassini), for > about 4 hours and 26 minutes of science gathering, this results in a > cost of $2.48 million per minute of science. Lets hope the science > gotten from this is worth it. > > It should be noted that the Cassini-Huygens mission was the last of the > big budget space probe missions. > > Comparing to other government space probe missions: > > Mars Rovers (Spirit & Opportunity): > Cost: $800 million > Science time (to date): 1 million+ > Cost per minute of science: $777* > * this might be slightly higher due to the troubleshooting of Spirit's > flash memory problems. > > The Mars Rovers have to date set the standard for science value, having If you fly farther, your equipment has been designed at an earlier time. Your energy budget is lower, and so is the package size. Methane ice and low light conditions do not sound like easy environment for rovers, nor bright technicolor pictures. Also, the data rate is lower, becase your send power is limited, and the distance is vastly larger (and we still don't have an Interplanet in place). Still, it'd be nice if the instrument package was driven by radiosotope battery. It didn't drown, that was really unexpected. We might not get as lucky the next time (assuming, there's going to be a next time, which isn't quite obvious right now). > conclusively proven the prior existence of significant quantities of > water involved in Mars geological history. They are currently on a > reduced schedule due to winter sunlight, but are continuing to operate, > many months after their designed 90-day mission schedules, and will > continue to drive that per minute cost down significantly. Completely different design space. > Can anyone involved in private science research provide some > information as to what cost per minute of science a private research > organization would find acceptable? There's no such thing as a private space organization doing research (with the possible exception of the forthcoming solar sail probe, which is not exactly trailblazing science). This might change at some point, but right now this is just how things are. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Fri Jan 14 23:05:49 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 00:05:49 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050114225943.M17405@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> The last ESA press conference (at ESOC, Darmstadt) for the day ended a short time ago. There, Dr. Tomasko of the imager team gave a description of the images. One looks to be cut by liquid "drainage channels" flowing from the highlands to lower levels (lower right to upper left), with shoreline. The image that looks like clouds also has shoreline with 'islands', he said. The rocky image looks like Mars (some thought it was a joke..), but I don't think you need wonder about lack of liquid. The Huygen scientists at the press conference (and those with whom I just spent time with at ESRIN in Italy) seem confident that liquid (was/is..?that's the question) on the surface. These are just 3 images (there's many more), and remember that Huygens carried 5 other instruments. Plus the Doppler data will give great rotation rates and other science for Titan (this is from the transmitter that continues to send signals captured now by Earth's radio telescopes. There is another press conference tomorrow at 11am CET. I won't try to watch that one, but ESA is pretty fast to get words/images on the web. One person from the communications department told me that 2million visitors visited the ESA web site today. Alot of interest in Titan! That's good news too. Amara From alexboko at umich.edu Fri Jan 14 23:56:36 2005 From: alexboko at umich.edu (alexboko) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:56:36 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Transhumanist Survivalism Message-ID: <41E85C34.4070309@umich.edu> 1) Good news. A certain Very Extropian Person generously offered to host the project. Now we need a catchy name for it. Here are some candidates: Civilization Insurance, CivInsure, CivIns MicroCiv PlanB Extrovival Leibowitz Project Project for a New Extropian Millenium (PNEM) TechRenaissance Renatech Technology Insurance, TechInsure Any others? 2) Even better news. As I looked into this further, I found that contrary to what some people on this list have said, high-tech survivalism may in fact be possible. I think it can scale down to a very small group of people with minimal equipment/materials. I don't want to spam the list with pages of details, there will soon be a Wiki and BBS dedicated to the subject. Let me just say for now that there were two factors I've been overlooking-- a) Even in the worst of circumstances, hardware would not be the limiting factor. Most of the industrial toolchain would still be lying around dormant. In every scenario I can think of, the limiting factors are electricity, fuel, and water. b) If you have electricity, obtaining water and synthesizing fuel becomes much easier. So, the real choke point is electric power. If you can make your own solar panels or turbines from scratch or almost from scratch, you can bootstrap the rest of the toolchain. I found several candidate designs, and better ones probably remain to be found. In summary, help is now needed in thinking up a catchy name for the Civilization Insurance site, and coming soon will be the official announcement of the new site. From sjvans at ameritech.net Sat Jan 15 00:06:11 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:06:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. > It's all been done in > 1960s with Laika et al. Really? Then why did Nasa alone launch 87 sounding rockets in the last 4 years? http://www.wff.nasa.gov/~code810/SRBlueBook.htm ESA seems to have an active suborbital program as well. http://spaceflight.esa.int/users/file.cfm?filename=facsrockets > SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. It wasn't? Guess they fooled me. Sure looked like it. Seemed that it fooled some other people, too, who wanted to book it for science flights. http://www.spacetoday.net/weblog/entry.php?id=260 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3722596.stml Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly figure of merit for science. From sjvans at ameritech.net Sat Jan 15 00:23:28 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:23:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050114172611.25520.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115002328.69106.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > McCarthy specifically focused on investigating > government officials who > were Soviet spies. He was never a judge at any > trial. His 'list' was > based on actual FBI tallies of public officials, > however the FBI and > Army intelligence refused to declassify intelligence > like the Venona > intercepts which would have corroborated McCarthy's > assertions. They > did this because they were more interested in > turning high level ACP > officials into double agents. But McCarthy never saw any such list, nor did anyone with knowledge tell him about it. He made it all up, and coincidentally turned out years later to be somewhat correct. Of course, correct in a trivial way, since no one with any sense doubted that there were spies in the US government. McCarthy could not have hurt the cause of anti-communism more if he tried. I have sometimes wondered if *he* was the mole in the government, but people have been looking through the old Soviet archives long enough now that it would have turned up if he was. From neptune at superlink.net Sat Jan 15 00:26:50 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:26:50 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan References: <20050114185202.1800.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c4fa98$e8894620$8e893cd1@pavilion> On Friday, January 14, 2005 1:52 PM Adrian Tymes wingcat at pacbell.net wrote: >> Some teary eyes in the room recounting >> the years of this mission: 25 years since >> conception, two generations of scientists, >> thousands of engineers, hundreds of >> scientists, 19 countries involved. > > Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks > out for me, much more than the science > data. It takes *that much* to get a lander > onto Titan? That's way more than we > should have to use. We need to make > space exploration far more efficient. Yes, and we already know part of the way to do this: privatize as much of it as possible. The other part is to punish many of those involved in creating the efficiencies in the first place. This second part is important to not let the guilty get away with it. Cheers! Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 01:12:48 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:12:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115011248.45508.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > > There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. > > It's all been done in 1960s with Laika et al. > > Really? Then why did Nasa alone launch 87 sounding > rockets in the last 4 years? > > http://www.wff.nasa.gov/~code810/SRBlueBook.htm > > ESA seems to have an active suborbital program as > well. > > http://spaceflight.esa.int/users/file.cfm?filename=facsrockets > > > SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. > > It wasn't? Guess they fooled me. Sure looked like > it. Me too: they went into space, in a ballistic trajectory, they didn't attain orbit, ergo: sub-orbital. > > Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly > figure of merit for science. Is this because scientists doing pure research distain the idea of 'profit' and 'breaking even', and never have to entertain such silly concepts in grant applications? Applied science has to demonstrate cost effectiveness by some metric: whether it is number of patentable discoveries, number of papers published, number of Nobel prizes earned, number of megabytes of data, number of minutes of 'stick time', per dollar spent, some ratio of cost effectiveness must be demonstrated, else what is the point of "Better, Faster, *Cheaper*" unless you know exactly what 'cheaper' actually *means*. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From sjvans at ameritech.net Sat Jan 15 02:21:36 2005 From: sjvans at ameritech.net (Stephen Van_Sickle) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 18:21:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115011248.45508.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115022136.35300.qmail@web81208.mail.yahoo.com> > Is this because scientists doing pure research > distain the idea of > 'profit' and 'breaking even', and never have to > entertain such silly > concepts in grant applications? No. > Applied science has to demonstrate cost > effectiveness by some metric: > whether it is number of patentable discoveries, > number of papers > published, As do "pure" scientists. Try getting your NIH grant renewed without publishing. Or your first one without a publishing record. It is an imperfect measure, but far, far better than "minutes of science", which comes perilously close to the labor theory of value. And you would be amazed at how fast a "pure" scientist becomes an "applied" one when results start suggesting a profitable product. From diegocaleiro at terra.com.br Sat Jan 15 03:10:50 2005 From: diegocaleiro at terra.com.br (Diego Caleiro) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:10:50 -0200 Subject: [extropy-chat] A reflection on the simulation argument Message-ID: <200501150110.50362.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> This is a paper I did sometime ago about thoughts on the simulation argument, It looked prettier in the open office than in mail format, but thats not the big point about it I'm not a phylosopher, I'm not even in university, so there might be some phylosophical or logical lacks in this reflection, Still, I'd like to hear from some of you what do you think about it. Diego (Log At) Why I think we are probably not living in a computer simulation Diego Caleiro's reflection on Nick Bostrom's ?Are you living in a computer simulation?? http://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html In Nick Bostrom's argument upon the possibility of all of us to be living in a computer simulation, he argues that one of the following propositions is true(1) the human species is very likely to go extinct before reaching a ?posthuman? stage; (2) any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their evolutionary history (or variations thereof); (3) we are almost certainly living in a computer simulation. It follows that the belief that there is a significant chance that we will one day become posthumans who run ancestor-simulations is false, unless we are currently living in a simulation. In this paper I'll argue that the second proposition is more probably true than the third one. For any fundamental society ( a society that lives in the real world) achieving a posthuman era, it would require some premises that I'll assume: The first of them is that in the real universe there are physical laws such that allow the existence of time, movement and therefore, propension to keep existing and propension to disapear. When I say propension to keep existing I mean a kind of survival of the fittest aplied to the physical rearrangements of the space discontinuity of that universe. As in our universe we have something that we call ?matter? that stills existing, and some rearrangements of it more propense to exist than others, for example, a star is more propense to exist than a very small amount of matter togheter, lets say, ten atoms in vacuum. This happens because of our gravity force, which makes it more probable that matter arranges itself in bigger than in small amounts. The existence of time, movement and propension to keep existing is necesssary since we are assuming some society ?becomes? posthuman, and it would also be required if we think that it is very improbable that such a thing as time has been invented, and, if time exists in our level, it would much probably exist in the fundamental level. The second of them is that, in a survival of the fittest universe, when a conscient being become alive, it has more propension to survive if it is egoistic, and protects its creation (as darwin said), but, when it comes to happen to insurge a very powerfull conscient organism, it is likely to be altruistic in order to survive. Let us use in example a room in old USSR were are the president, a cockroach and the Red phone, during the missile crisis in Cuba. The cockroach main worry must be egoistic, since she has to think how to get out of the president view in order not to be crushed, and therefore have a lot of little cockroaches a few days later. The Red phone rings, the president answers and he is told that, if he doesn't stop the missiles were they are, there will be a nuclear war, if he is to have egoistic thoughts, he will keep the missile going, and the war would eliminate most, if not all, humans in earth, the president concerns must be altruistic, otherwise, his propension to keep existing becomes very low. Of course I'm dealing a psicological concept of egoistic action, since you could argue that rationally he would be thinking in himself, not altruistically. Still, his action is something that commonly people would call altruism. In our actual world, we have a lot of power in the hand of some people, technology gave us power enough to end it all but the darwinian evolution has given only ( or mostly) the cockroach kind of advance in our thinking, we achieved power without achieving biological patterns compatible with that power. Our evolution, biologically, was not prepared ofr intelligence, since intelligence led us to have a lot of power that is not necessary to survive, but it is definetely necessary to kill everyone, or most of us. In this sense, we must thank ethics and morals that allow people to take some non-cockroach decisions, even when their brains did a cockroach destructive thinking. If we accord that any society that created posthuman civilization evolved in the principles of egoistic darwinism we will have thus that the posthumans it created are altruistic, this comes from a deduction as follows: if A is egoistic, and wants to create B, therefore B is suposed to do something good for A, otherwise A would not have created it, or would have destroyed it. At last, it could happen that B gets stronger than A even being a mistaken try, takes over the world or something like that, but, if this happens, it's rather improbable that B starts creating simulations of worlds like our. It follows that if there is a fundamental society such that it develops a posthumans with simulations universe, it is much more probable that this simulations are created by altruist senscient beings, rather than egoistic ones. What I think that are an altruistic creation implications When we think about what to do with a simulation, we think about it in the means of purpose, and our purposes are guided by egoistic ethics, therefore, we think about simulations based on their efficience in accomplishing tasks for us. That is something that a real altruist wouldn't do. A senscient altruistic being would think of a simulation as we think of having children, it is a creation of ours, and we are supposed to give it a happy life as much as we can. An altruistic senscient being would create a simulation in order to learn about his history, of course, but, mostly of all, he would create a simulation to allow a bigger number, and quality of senscient beings happiness, so, mostly, he would create worlds in which people are very happy and free, and as far as I'm concerned, our world is much probably not the happiest and most free world there can be, and, if it is, we should deeply rethink our efforts upon anything at all. So, if the senscient altruist being is going to conceive a considerable number of simulations, most of them would not be historical, and, those which are, would mostly have few scient beings, since the simulation could run equally for senscient or not beings, and therefore its historical value would be the same in both cases. I'm declined to beleive that in a simulation where a considerable part of the population suffers would not be created unless the suffering part of the population were only zombie-kinded non senscient beings. This leads us to two possibilities, one of them with another three possibilities inside: The first possibility is that you are a very happy person, therefore you could (1)be living in a zombie world, like Truman Burbank, and I'm only an unconscious part of a machine, (2) in a part zombie, part senscient world, assuming that there are other senscient happy beings in your world, or (3) in the real world, and holy damn, you are lucky. The other possibility is that you don't consider yourself so happy and satisfied, in this case, you are very probably in the real world. Why I think we are in the real world As Nick Bostrom said, the possibility of us being in a personal world (as he says, a me-simulation) is much smaller than the possibility of us being in a complete world, but, as I argued before, it is rather improbable that this world is the best conceived by our other level gods, that created us. Some philosophers have once defended god existence and goodness based on the idea that we coudn't be able to feel it, but this is the best world there may be. Most of the people don't think so, and I don't think our posthuman gods would create an enviroment like earth, with so many problems for most of us and solutions for few. The possibility of us being the creation of a egoistic posthuman, whose biggest passion is to observe and judge us, is possible, still, it is improbable that an egoistic superintelligence would be concerned with that. Conclusion: If we are to assume that a darwin based society developed post?human? superintelligence, then this superintelligence is probably altruistic, and therefore, if we are all senscient beings, we would live in a world with less sadness, hunger etc.. than the world we beleive we live in. That is why I think this is more probably the real world, the fundamental level than a secondary one. If you have any comments, suggestions, reflections, critics, e-mail me, I'll be glad to hear you diegocaleiro at terra.com.br From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 03:20:19 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 19:20:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115022136.35300.qmail@web81208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050115032019.31912.qmail@web12908.mail.yahoo.com> --- Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > As do "pure" scientists. Try getting your NIH grant > renewed without publishing. Or your first one without > a publishing record. It is an imperfect measure, but > far, far better than "minutes of science", which comes > perilously close to the labor theory of value. > > And you would be amazed at how fast a "pure" scientist > becomes an "applied" one when results start suggesting > a profitable product. Minutes of science is meant to suggest some degree of quantity of data, assuming that mission scientists schedule acquisition of data to maximize bytes per dollar. Of course, this ignores metrics of quality of data, however it can be treated as a dollar average per minute. Some minutes of science may be of immensely greater value in the final analysis than others. For example, with Cassini, large amounts of time spent in orbit, nowhere near any rings or moons, may be worth little beyond magnetospheric data and meteorological observation of the Saturnian atmosphere. It is obvious that every minute Huygens spent in descent and on the surface was of immense value simply due to the scarcity of time available, and the total lack of any competetive missions to that location in the forseable future. Ergo, high demand, low supply (and thus having nothing to do with any labor theory of value). In that respect, the data gathered may be worth almost two and a half million bucks a minute. How many megabytes of data the probe can collect per minute (and store for transmission) would determine a better metric of how many dollars per byte of data. The question, though, is, is the average minute of science time on Titan worth two thousand times more than the average minute spent in Saturn orbit? Or four thousand times more than the average minute spent on Mars by a Rover? I would posit that an argument can be made that data about Mars is of greater importance to humanity at this point in time than data about Titan, because Mars is closer and has far greater potential for terraforming. From this point of view, the Mars Rovers are a far more profitable investment than the Huygens probe. However, if it can be shown that data from Titan gives scientists a better idea of how greenhouse effects work, how planetary chemistry create them, etc, then that data may be worth something to the Mars effort. This all being said, I am also hoping to get some idea of whether government spends too much money to buy too little data or not, whether private industry can do it better, and if so what price private industry is willing to pay to acquire such data. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? All your favorites on one personal page ? Try My Yahoo! http://my.yahoo.com From hal at finney.org Sat Jan 15 06:11:33 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:11:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115061133.2E06057E2B@finney.org> I noticed something interesting in comparing the ESA's published image at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMBQO71Y3E_0.html which shows the view from the ground, with the corresponding raw image. The raw images are no longer available at the arizona.edu web site, maybe the ESA got mad at them, but space.com has some at: http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/huygens_images_050114.html . The one in the top left at the bottom of the page looks to me like essentially the same as the ESA one, but it is slightly less cropped. The larger view makes it appear that there is a humongous mountain in the background! It's not so noticeable in the ESA version, but in the raw image you can not only see a bit of the mountain's edge in the top right corner, you can faintly see what appear to be rock formations on the mountain. Of course I don't know that it's really big, it could be a hill seen through a telephoto lens. It will be great to see the additional images as the ESA releases them. Hal From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 08:13:40 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:13:40 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] US Intelligence Report Sees Sharp Rise in Asian Influence Message-ID: <470a3c520501150013392efc6@mail.gmail.com> A new forecast compiled by U.S. intelligence experts foresees China and India spearheading an expansion of Asian political and economic influence throughout the world. It also sees many Arab countries at a crossroads as globalization spreads. The report, labeled "Mapping the Global Future," lays out a world 15 years from now in which the United States remains the dominant power, but faces increased competition from growing economic power in Asia and challenges from political Islam. The long-range forecast was issued by the National Intelligence Council, or N.I.C., a kind of research organization for the head of the Central Intelligence Agency. The Council regularly compiles reports reflecting the collective views of U.S. intelligence agencies. Officials say the views of more than one thousand political, economic, and social experts around the world were solicited for the new report. http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-01-14-voa68.cfm From pgptag at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 08:18:52 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:18:52 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] UK Science Center to Probe Mysteries of the Mind Message-ID: <470a3c5205011500188d5be1c@mail.gmail.com> Can there be a predisposition for fundamentalism? Do the faithful cope more easily with pain? Are they faster to recover from illness? Such are the questions scientists and theologians will attempt to answer at a new study center which starts experiments into human consciousness in the next few months. The Oxford Center for Science of the Mind (OXSCOM) could be the first of its kind in the world, its founders believe. OXSCOM has received a $2 million grant for a two-year pilot run from the American-based philanthropic John Templeton Foundation to carry out a range of experiments, some of which will use pain techniques to see if the faithful cope better with pain than non-believers. "What we'll be doing is exploring consciousness and particularly how consciousness is shaped and substantiated in the brain, how a belief can trigger or change your consciousness, and how one can affect the other". http://olympics.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=scienceNews&storyID=7330559 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 08:29:29 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:29:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115082700.M40946@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Hal Finney: >The raw images are no longer available at the arizona.edu >web site, maybe the ESA got mad at them, ???? Policies like this happen at a Cassini-Huygens project level. I am not sure, but if what I saw last year with how the teams released their data from the Cassini orbiter, I don't think that a global policy at the project level for Cassini-Huygens has been set at this point. The individual instrument teams with their respective research institutes have the say for their release of their data. Each have a particular level of processed data 'product' that they must deliver to ESA or NASA or ASI within a particular time after mission end. >The larger view makes it appear that there is a humongous mountain >in the background! Needs a geometric correction? Amara From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 14:17:44 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 15:17:44 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] The Imagining the Internet Predictions Database Message-ID: <20050115141551.M48634@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> http://www.elon.edu/predictions/ "The Imagining the Internet Predictions Database examines the potential future of the Internet while simultaneously providing a peek back into its history. We invite you to navigate through three useful resource areas that: illuminate the views of stakeholders - The Experts Survey; give an historic overview - The 1990 to 1995 Predictions; and allow your participation - Share Your Vision Today." From hal at finney.org Sat Jan 15 15:05:23 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 07:05:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115150523.DFE0857E2C@finney.org> The images this morning are even more spectacular, at http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ and http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMC8Q71Y3E_0.html . There's a panoramic view taken as the craft spun during descent, and the first color pictures from the surface. It looks to me like we landed in the so-called "ocean", the flat dark area, with the light colored "land" actually being rugged, mountainous terrain. And even though they've labelled the "horizon" in that first landing picture, I don't think it's really the horizon, but rather the "coastline" with the mountain I observed being the higher ground which from above looks like land. Hal From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 18:16:17 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 19:16:17 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115181231.M72217@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Mike Lorrey >For example, with Cassini, large amounts of time spent in orbit, >nowhere near any rings or moons, may be worth little beyond >>magnetospheric data and meteorological observation of the >Saturnian atmosphere. ??!! Cassini was far from 'asleep' during its 7 years (15Oct1997 - 1Jul2004) in interplanetary space. Many of the instruments were on, such as the particles and fields instruments (measuring magnetic field, plasma, dust, etc.) Cassini Interplanetary Space Trajectory: http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=31240 Plus, each flyby produced volumes of data, especially the last one. Two Venus flybys One Earth flyby Jupiter Flyby "Jupiter Millennium Mission" some results here: http://www.planetary.org/html/news/articlearchive/headlines/2000/cassj upresults.html http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/jupiterflyby/ http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/pictures/jupiter/ The Cassini Jupiter flyby produced more data than the entire Galileo mission in orbit around Jupiter (http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov/ ) Amara From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 18:48:07 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 10:48:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115150523.DFE0857E2C@finney.org> Message-ID: <20050115184807.95971.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Hal Finney wrote: > The images this morning are even more spectacular, at > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/ and > http://www.esa.int/SPECIALS/Cassini-Huygens/SEMC8Q71Y3E_0.html . > There's a panoramic view taken as the craft spun during descent, > and the first color pictures from the surface. > > It looks to me like we landed in the so-called "ocean", the flat dark > area, with the light colored "land" actually being rugged, > mountainous terrain. And even though they've labelled the "horizon" > in that first landing picture, I don't think it's really the horizon, > but rather the "coastline" with the mountain I observed being the > higher ground which from above looks like land. Yeah, this looks nothing like the snowcone with organic syrup scenario that had been theorized previously. Maybe Huygens just lucked out and landed in a bad location. So the bigger mystery now is how a moon with such desert climate maintain such a dense atmosphere? Perhaps vulcanism? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sat Jan 15 19:07:55 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 20:07:55 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115190309.M24199@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> >So the bigger mystery now is how a moon with >such desert climate maintain such a dense atmosphere? >Perhaps vulcanism? Planetary Geology : Frozen volcanism on Titan http://www.geotimes.org/current/NN_Cassini.html Cassini sees evidence of Titan volcanism http://www.spacetoday.net/Summary/2641 Radar Surprises from Titan http://www.spacedaily.com/news/cassini-04zzzzh.html Amara From jay.dugger at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 19:30:25 2005 From: jay.dugger at gmail.com (Jay Dugger) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:30:25 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] US Intelligence Report Sees Sharp Rise in Asian Influence In-Reply-To: <470a3c520501150013392efc6@mail.gmail.com> References: <470a3c520501150013392efc6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5366105b0501151130163a6e8f@mail.gmail.com> Saturday, 15 January 2005 Hello all: On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:13:40 +0100, Giu1i0 Pri5c0 wrote: [snip] > The report, labeled "Mapping the Global Future," lays out a world 15 http://www.foia.cia.gov/2020/2020.pdf > years from now in which the United States remains the dominant power, > but faces increased competition from growing economic power in Asia > and challenges from political Islam. See also the "Global Trends 2010" and "Global Trends 2015" reports to compare, contrast, and track the changes of this particular consensus future model. http://www.cia.gov/nic/NIC_2020_project.html > The long-range forecast was issued by the National Intelligence > Council, or N.I.C., a kind of research organization for the head of > the Central Intelligence Agency. The Council regularly compiles http://www.cia.gov/nic/NIC_home.html > reports reflecting the collective views of U.S. intelligence agencies. > Officials say the views of more than one thousand political, economic, > and social experts around the world were solicited for the new report. >From the NIC 2020 Project page: "Significantly, the NIC 2020 Project employed information technology and analytic tools unavailable in earlier NIC efforts. We created an interactive Web site which contained several tools including a "hands-on" computer simulation that allows novice and expert alike to develop their own scenarios. This "International Futures" model is now available to the public to explore." http://ifsmodel.org Service intermittent as of Sat 15 Jan 05, and apparently not yet cached by Google. All links also available through the social/collaborative bookmark service del.icio.us. See the link in my .sig, or pick up a RSS feed here: http://del.icio.us/rss/jay.dugger/NIC -- Jay Dugger BLOG--http://hellofrom.blogspot.com/ HOME--http://www.owlmirror.net/~duggerj/ LINKS--http://del.icio.us/jay.dugger Sometimes the delete key serves best. From hal at finney.org Sat Jan 15 21:57:39 2005 From: hal at finney.org (Hal Finney) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 13:57:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan Message-ID: <20050115215739.3790F57E2D@finney.org> I was on the road this morning when I saw the new pictures, but now I've gotten home and I see that the Los Angeles Times has a similar interpretation to what I thought I saw (link may require subscription): http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-titan15jan15,0,3987702.story?coll=la-home-world > Torrence Johnson, a member of the mission's camera team, said from the > Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena that planetary surfaces "look > pretty much the same everywhere." That doesn't mean strange things > are not going on outside the camera's eye. He said the lack of craters > indicated the surface is young. Drainage channels show that something, > perhaps hydrocarbon rivers, flowed across the surface at some point. > > It was unclear exactly where the probe landed. Pictures taken during > a Cassini fly-by several months ago showed bright and dark areas, but > scientists could not estimate the elevations of those areas. Johnson > said the new pictures seemed to prove that the bright, icy areas are > at a higher elevation than the darkened surface, where he thought the > probe had landed. > > Some scientists had speculated that the dark areas were hydrocarbon seas, > but the evidence from the probe seemed to show it to be a hard surface. > > "This proves pretty conclusively there are not liquid oceans," said Bob > Mitchell, Cassini program manager at JPL. "That's not to say there's > not lakes or ponds." However the New York Times is still clinging to the wet-ocean theory http://nytimes.com/2005/01/16/science/16saturn.html : > If this evidence of possible liquids on Titan's landscape is confirmed > it would support widely held pre-mission conjecture that the planet-sized > moon has lakes and perhaps seas of liquid methane or ethane. It could thus > prove to be the mission's most consequential discovery: that not only is > Titan the only moon in the solar system with a substantial atmosphere, > but it also appears to have flowing surface liquids, putting it in the > company of only Earth and possibly Jupiter's moon Io, with its lava flows. Slashdot also points to some amateur analysis, mosaics, animations and stereo images at http://anthony.liekens.net/index.php/Main/Huygens . Hal From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sat Jan 15 22:48:48 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 14:48:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115181231.M72217@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <20050115224848.30008.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > > Mike Lorrey > >For example, with Cassini, large amounts of time spent in orbit, > >nowhere near any rings or moons, may be worth little beyond > >>magnetospheric data and meteorological observation of the > >Saturnian atmosphere. > > ??!! > Cassini was far from 'asleep' during its 7 years (15Oct1997 - > 1Jul2004) in interplanetary space. Many of the instruments were on, > such as the particles and fields instruments (measuring magnetic > field, plasma, dust, etc.) Okay, then my previous calculation makes Cassini's average cost per data minute on a par with the Mars Rovers. If so, such a valuation demolishes the idea of "Better, Faster, Cheaper" that Sean O'Keefe promoted for many years: The Mars Rovers are no cheaper, in data dollars, than Cassini, which is arguably the most 'expensive' space probe in history. One does need to ask what the value of a data minute of particle and field data is worth versus photography of planets and moons, radar mapping, etc. As for Huygens, maybe it is because of the age of the probes, but after seeing the pictures from the Mars Rovers, the miniscule low resolution pictures sent back by Huygens are a little disappointing. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From eugen at leitl.org Sat Jan 15 23:29:47 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:29:47 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] [>Htech] [FoRK] "The global baby bust" (fwd from deafbox@hotmail.com) (fwd from eugen@leitl.org) Message-ID: <20050115232947.GZ9221@leitl.org> ----- Forwarded message from Eugen Leitl ----- From: Eugen Leitl Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 00:19:20 +0100 To: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com Subject: [>Htech] [FoRK] "The global baby bust" (fwd from deafbox at hotmail.com) User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i Reply-To: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com ----- Forwarded message from Russell Turpin ----- From: "Russell Turpin" Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 17:14:47 +0000 To: fork at xent.com Subject: [FoRK] "The global baby bust" Interesting article on current demographic trends: http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20040501faessay83307-p0/phillip-longman/the-global-baby-bust.html _______________________________________________ FoRK mailing list http://xent.com/mailman/listinfo/fork ----- End forwarded message ----- The Global Baby Bust By Phillip Longman >From Foreign Affairs, May/June 2004 Summary: Most people think overpopulation is one of the worst dangers facing the globe. In fact, the opposite is true. As countries get richer, their populations age and their birthrates plummet. And this is not just a problem of rich countries: the developing world is also getting older fast. Falling birthrates might seem beneficial, but the economic and social price is too steep to pay. The right policies could help turn the tide, but only if enacted before it's too late. Phillip Longman is Senior Fellow at the New America Foundation and author of the forthcoming The Empty Cradle (Basic Books, 2004), from which this article is adapted. THE WRONG READING You awaken to news of a morning traffic jam. Leaving home early for a doctor's appointment, you nonetheless arrive too late to find parking. After waiting two hours for a 15-minute consultation, you wait again to have your prescription filled. All the while, you worry about the work you've missed because so many other people would line up to take your job. Returning home to the evening news, you watch throngs of youths throwing stones somewhere in the Middle East, and a feature on disappearing farmland in the Midwest. A telemarketer calls for the third time, telling you, "We need your help to save the rain forest." As you set the alarm clock for the morning, one neighbor's car alarm goes off and another's air conditioner starts to whine. So goes a day in the life of an average American. It is thus hardly surprising that many Americans think overpopulation is one of the world's most pressing problems. To be sure, the typical Westerner enjoys an unprecedented amount of private space. Compared to their parents, most now live in larger homes occupied by fewer children. They drive ever-larger automobiles, in which they can eat, smoke, or listen to the radio in splendid isolation. Food is so abundant that obesity has become a leading cause of death. Still, both day-to-day experience and the media frequently suggest that the quality of life enjoyed in the United States and Europe is under threat by population growth. Sprawling suburban development is making traffic worse, driving taxes up, and reducing opportunities to enjoy nature. Televised images of developing-world famine, war, and environmental degradation prompt some to wonder, "Why do these people have so many kids?" Immigrants and other people's children wind up competing for jobs, access to health care, parking spaces, favorite fishing holes, hiking paths, and spots at the beach. No wonder that, when asked how long it will take for world population to double, nearly half of all Americans say 20 years or less. Yet a closer look at demographic trends shows that the rate of world population growth has fallen by more than 40 percent since the late 1960s. And forecasts by the UN and other organizations show that, even in the absence of major wars or pandemics, the number of human beings on the planet could well start to decline within the lifetime of today's children. Demographers at the International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis predict that human population will peak (at 9 billion) by 2070 and then start to contract. Long before then, many nations will shrink in absolute size, and the average age of the world's citizens will shoot up dramatically. Moreover, the populations that will age fastest are in the Middle East and other underdeveloped regions. During the remainder of this century, even sub-Saharan Africa will likely grow older than Europe is today. FREE FALLING The root cause of these trends is falling birthrates. Today, the average woman in the world bears half as many children as did her counterpart in 1972. No industrialized country still produces enough children to sustain its population over time, or to prevent rapid population aging. Germany could easily lose the equivalent of the current population of what was once East Germany over the next half-century. Russia's population is already contracting by three-quarters of a million a year. Japan's population, meanwhile, is expected to peak as early as 2005, and then to fall by as much as one-third over the next 50 years -- a decline equivalent, the demographer Hideo Ibe has noted, to that experienced in medieval Europe during the plague. Although many factors are at work, the changing economics of family life is the prime factor in discouraging childbearing. In nations rich and poor, under all forms of government, as more and more of the world's population moves to urban areas in which children offer little or no economic reward to their parents, and as women acquire economic opportunities and reproductive control, the social and financial costs of childbearing continue to rise. In the United States, the direct cost of raising a middle-class child born this year through age 18, according to the Department of Agriculture, exceeds $200,000 -- not including college. And the cost in forgone wages can easily exceed $1 million, even for families with modest earning power. Meanwhile, although Social Security and private pension plans depend critically on the human capital created by parents, they offer the same benefits, and often more, to those who avoid the burdens of raising a family. Now the developing world, as it becomes more urban and industrialized, is experiencing the same demographic transition, but at a faster pace. Today, when Americans think of Mexico, for example, they think of televised images of desperate, unemployed youths swimming the Rio Grande or slipping through border fences. Yet because Mexican fertility rates have dropped so dramatically, the country is now aging five times faster than is the United States. It took 50 years for the American median age to rise just five years, from 30 to 35. By contrast, between 2000 and 2050, Mexico's median age, according to UN projections, will increase by 20 years, leaving half the population over 42. Meanwhile, the median American age in 2050 is expected to be 39.7. Those televised images of desperate, unemployed youth broadcast from the Middle East create a similarly misleading impression. Fertility rates are falling faster in the Middle East than anywhere else on earth, and as a result, the region's population is aging at an unprecedented rate. For example, by mid-century, Algeria will see its median age increase from 21.7 to 40, according to UN projections. Postrevolutionary Iran has seen its fertility rate plummet by nearly two-thirds and will accordingly have more seniors than children by 2030. Countries such as France and Japan at least got a chance to grow rich before they grew old. Today, most developing countries are growing old before they get rich. China's low fertility means that its labor force will start shrinking by 2020, and 30 percent of China's population could be over 60 by mid-century. More worrisome, China's social security system, which covers only a fraction of the population, already has debts exceeding 145 percent of its GDP. Making demographics there even worse, the spreading use of ultrasound and other techniques for determining the sex of fetuses is, as in India and many other parts of the world, leading to much higher abortion rates for females than for males. In China, the ratio of male to female births is now 117 to 100 -- which implies that roughly one out of six males in today's new generation will not succeed in reproducing. All told, some 59 countries, comprising roughly 44 percent of the world's total population, are currently not producing enough children to avoid population decline, and the phenomenon continues to spread. By 2045, according to the latest UN projections, the world's fertility rate as a whole will have fallen below replacement levels. REPAYING THE DEMOGRAPHIC DIVIDEND What impact will these trends have on the global economy and balance of power? Consider first the positive possibilities. Slower world population growth offers many benefits, some of which have already been realized. Many economists believe, for example, that falling birthrates made possible the great economic boom that occurred in Japan and then in many other Asian nations beginning in the 1960s. As the relative number of children declined, so did the burden of their dependency, thereby freeing up more resources for investment and adult consumption. In East Asia, the working-age population grew nearly four times faster than its dependent population between 1965 and 1990, freeing up a huge reserve of female labor and other social resources that would otherwise have been committed to raising children. Similarly, China's rapid industrialization today is being aided by a dramatic decline in the relative number of dependent children. Over the next decade, the Middle East could benefit from a similar "demographic dividend." Birthrates fell in every single Middle Eastern country during the 1990s, often dramatically. The resulting "middle aging" of the region will lower the overall dependency ratio over the next 10 to 20 years, freeing up more resources for infrastructure and industrial development. The appeal of radicalism could also diminish as young adults make up less of the population and Middle Eastern societies become increasingly dominated by middle-aged people concerned with such practical issues as health care and retirement savings. Just as population aging in the West during the 1980s was accompanied by the disappearance of youthful indigenous terrorist groups such as the Red Brigades and the Weather Underground, falling birthrates in the Middle East could well produce societies far less prone to political violence. Declining fertility rates at first bring a "demographic dividend." That dividend has to be repaid, however, if the trend continues. Although at first the fact that there are fewer children to feed, clothe, and educate leaves more for adults to enjoy, soon enough, if fertility falls beneath replacement levels, the number of productive workers drops as well, and the number of dependent elderly increase. And these older citizens consume far more resources than children do. Even after considering the cost of education, a typical child in the United States consumes 28 percent less than the typical working-age adult, whereas elders consume 27 percent more, mostly in health-related expenses. Largely because of this imbalance, population aging, once it begins creating more seniors than workers, puts severe strains on government budgets. In Germany, for example, public spending on pensions, even after accounting for a reduction in future benefits written into current law, is expected to swell from an already staggering 10.3 percent of GDP to 15.4 percent by 2040 -- even as the number of workers available to support each retiree shrinks from 2.6 to 1.4. Meanwhile, the cost of government health-care benefits for the elderly is expected to rise from today's 3.8 percent of GDP to 8.4 percent by 2040. Population aging also depresses the growth of government revenues. Population growth is a major source of economic growth: more people create more demand for the products capitalists sell, and more supply of the labor capitalists buy. Economists may be able to construct models of how economies could grow amid a shrinking population, but in the real world, it has never happened. A nation's GDP is literally the sum of its labor force times average output per worker. Thus a decline in the number of workers implies a decline in an economy's growth potential. When the size of the work force falls, economic growth can occur only if productivity increases enough to compensate. And these increases would have to be substantial to offset the impact of aging. Italy, for example, expects its working-age population to plunge 41 percent by 2050 -- meaning that output per worker would have to increase by at least that amount just to keep Italy's economic growth rate from falling below zero. With a shrinking labor supply, Europe's future economic growth will therefore depend entirely on getting more out of each remaining worker (many of them unskilled, recently arrived immigrants), even as it has to tax them at higher and higher rates to pay for old-age pensions and health care. Theoretically, raising the retirement age could help to ease the burden of unfunded old-age benefits. But declining fitness among the general population is making this tactic less feasible. In the United States, for example, the dramatic increases in obesity and sedentary lifestyles are already causing disability rates to rise among the population 59 and younger. Researchers estimate that this trend will cause a 10-20 percent increase in the demand for nursing homes over what would otherwise occur from mere population aging, and a 10-15 percent increase in Medicare expenditures on top of the program's already exploding costs. Meanwhile, despite the much ballyhooed "longevity revolution," life expectancy among the elderly in the United States is hardly improving. Indeed, due to changing lifestyle factors, life expectancy among American women aged 65 was actually lower in 2002 than it was in 1990, according to the Social Security Administration. The same declines in population fitness can now be seen in many other nations and are likely to overwhelm any public health benefits achieved through medical technology. According to the International Association for the Study of Obesity, an "alarming rise in obesity presents a pan-European epidemic." A full 35 percent of Italian children are now overweight. In the case of European men, the percentage who are overweight or obese ranges from over 40 percent in France to 70 percent in Germany. And as Western lifestyles spread throughout the developing world so do Western ways of dying. According to the World Health Organization, half of all deaths in places such as Mexico, China, and the Middle East are now caused by noncommunicable diseases related to Western lifestyle, such as cancers and heart attacks induced by smoking and obesity. GLOBAL AGING AND GLOBAL POWER Current population trends are likely to have another major impact: they will make military actions increasingly difficult for most nations. One reason for this change will be psychological. In countries where parents generally have only one or two children, every soldier becomes a "Private Ryan" -- a soldier whose loss would mean overwhelming devastation to his or her family. In the later years of the Soviet Union, for example, collapsing birthrates in the Russian core meant that by 1990, the number of Russians aged 15-24 had shrunk by 5.2 million from 25 years before. Given their few sons, it is hardly surprising that Russian mothers for the first time in the nation's history organized an antiwar movement, and that Soviet society decided that its casualties in Afghanistan were unacceptable. Another reason for the shift will be financial. Today, Americans consider the United States as the world's sole remaining superpower, which it is. As the cost of pensions and health care consume more and more of the nation's wealth, however, and as the labor force stops growing, it will become more and more difficult for Washington to sustain current levels of military spending or the number of men and women in uniform. Even within the U.S. military budget, the competition between guns and canes is already intense. The Pentagon today spends 84 cents on pensions for every dollar it spends on basic pay. Indeed, except during wartime, pensions are already one of the Pentagon's largest budget categories. In 2000, the cost of military pensions amounted to 12 times what the military spent on ammunition, nearly 5 times what the Navy spent on new ships, and more than 5 times what the Air Force spent on new planes and missiles. Of course, the U.S. military is also more technically sophisticated than ever before, meaning that national power today is much less dependent on the ability to raise large armies. But the technologies the United States currently uses to project its power -- laser-guided bombs, stealth aircraft, navigation assisted by the space-based Global Positioning System, nuclear aircraft carriers -- are all products of the sort of expensive research and development that the United States will have difficulty affording if the cost of old-age entitlements continues to rise. The same point applies to the U.S. ability to sustain, or increase, its levels of foreign aid. Although the United States faces less population aging than any other industrialized nation, the extremely high cost of its health care system, combined with its underfunded pension system, means that it still faces staggering liabilities. According to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the imbalance between what the U.S. federal government will collect in future taxes under current law and what it has promised to pay in future benefits now exceeds 500 percent of GDP. To close that gap, the IMF warns, "would require an immediate and permanent 60 percent hike in the federal income tax yield, or a 50 percent cut in Social Security and Medicare benefits." Neither is likely. Accordingly, in another 20 years, the United States will be no more able to afford the role of world policeman than Europe or Japan can today. Nor will China be able to assume the job, since it will soon start to suffer from the kind of hyper-aging that Japan is already experiencing. AGING AND THE PACE OF PROGRESS Even if there are fewer workers available to support each retiree in the future, won't technology be able to make up the difference? Perhaps. But there is also plenty of evidence to suggest that population aging itself works to depress the rate of technological and organizational innovation. Cross-country comparisons imply, for example, that after the proportion of elders increases in a society beyond a certain point, the level of entrepreneurship and inventiveness begins to drop. In 2002, Babson College and the London School of Business released their latest index of entrepreneurial activity. It shows that there is a distinct correlation between countries with a high ratio of workers to retirees and those with a high degree of entrepreneurship. Conversely, in countries in which a large share of the population is retired, the amount of new business formation is low. So, for example, two of the most entrepreneurial countries today are India and China, where there are currently roughly five people of working age for every person of retirement age. Meanwhile, Japan and France are among the least entrepreneurial countries on earth and have among the lowest ratios of workers to retirees. This correlation could be explained by many different factors. Both common sense and a vast literature in finance and psychology support the claim that as one approaches retirement age, one usually becomes more reluctant to take career or financial risks. It is not surprising, therefore, that aging countries such as Italy, France, and Japan are marked by exceptionally low rates of job turnover and by exceptionally conservative use of capital. Because prudence requires that older investors take fewer risks with their investments, it also stands to reason that as populations age, investor preference shifts toward safe bonds and bank deposits and away from speculative stocks and venture funds. As populations age further, ever-higher shares of citizens begin cashing out their investments and spending down their savings. Also to be considered are the huge public deficits projected to be run by major industrialized countries over the next several decades. Because of the mounting costs of pensions and health care, government spending on research and development, as well as on education, will likely drop. Moreover, massive government borrowing could easily crowd out financial capital that would otherwise be available to the private sector for investment in new technology. The Center for Strategic and International Studies has recently calculated that the cost of public benefits to the elderly will consume a dramatically rising share of GDP in industrialized countries. In the United States, such benefits currently consume 9.4 percent of GDP. But if current trends continue, this figure will top 20 percent by 2040. And in countries such as France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and Spain, somewhere between a quarter and a third of all national output will be consumed by old-age pensions and health care programs before today's 30-year-olds reach retirement age. Theoretically, a highly efficient, global financial market could lend financial resources from rich, old countries that are short on labor to young, poor countries that are short on capital, and make the whole world better off. But for this to happen, old countries would have to contain their deficits and invest their savings in places that are themselves either on the threshold of hyper-aging (China, India, Mexico) or highly destabilized by religious fanaticism, disease, and war (most of the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, Indonesia), or both. And who exactly would buy the products produced by these investments? Japan, South Korea, and other recently industrialized countries relied on massive exports to the United States and Europe to develop. But if the population of Europe and Japan drops, while the population of the United States ages considerably, where will the demand come from to support development in places such as the Middle East and sub-Saharan Africa? Population aging is also likely to create huge legacy costs for employers. This is particularly true in the United States, where health and pension benefits are largely provided by the private sector. General Motors (GM) now has 2.5 retirees on its pension rolls for every active worker and an unfunded pension debt of $19.2 billion. Honoring its legacy costs to retirees now adds $1,800 to the cost of every vehicle GM makes, according to a 2003 estimate by Morgan Stanley. Just between 2001 and 2002, the U.S. government's projected short-term liability for bailing out failing private pension plans increased from $11 billion to $35 billion, with huge defaults expected from the steel and airline industries. An aging work force may also be less able or inclined to take advantage of new technology. This trend seems to be part of the cause for Japan's declining rates of productivity growth in the 1990s. Before that decade, the aging of Japan's highly educated work force was a weak but positive force in increasing the nation's productivity, according to studies. Older workers learned by doing, developing specialized knowledge and craft skills and the famous company spirit that made Japan an unrivaled manufacturing power. But by the 1990s, the continued aging of Japan's work force became a cause of the country's declining competitiveness. Population aging works against innovation in another way as well. As population growth dwindles, so does the need to increase the supply of just about everything, save health care. That means there is less incentive to find ways of making a gallon of gas go farther, or of increasing the capacity of existing infrastructure. Population growth is the mother of necessity. Without it, why bother to innovate? An aging society may have an urgent need to gain more output from each remaining worker, but without growing markets, individual firms have little incentive to learn how to do more with less -- and with a dwindling supply of human capital, they have fewer ideas to draw on. IMPORTING HUMAN CAPITAL f high-tech isn't the answer, what about immigration? It turns out that importing new, younger workers is at best only a partial solution. To be sure, the United States and other developed nations derive many benefits from their imported human capital. Immigration, however, does less than one might think to ease the challenges of population aging. One reason is that most immigrants arrive not as babies but with a third or so of their lives already behind them -- and then go on to become elderly themselves. In the short term, therefore, immigrants can help to increase the ratio of workers to retirees, but in the long term, they add much less youth to the population than would newborn children. Indeed, according to a study by the UN Population Division, if the United States hopes to maintain the current ratio of workers to retirees over time, it will have to absorb an average of 10.8 million immigrants annually through 2050. At that point, however, the U.S. population would total 1.1 billion, 73 percent of whom would be immigrants who had arrived in this country since 1995 or their descendants. Just housing such a massive influx would require the equivalent of building another New York City every 10 months. And even if the homes could be built, it is unclear how long the United States and other developed nations can sustain even current rates of immigration. One reason, of course, is heightened security concerns. Another is the prospect of a cultural backlash against immigrants, the chances of which increase as native birthrates decline. In the 1920s, when widespread apprehension about declining native fertility found voice in books such as Lothrop Stoddard's "The Rising Tide of Color Against White World-Supremacy," the U.S. political system responded by shutting off immigration. Germany, Sweden, and France did the same in the 1970s as the reality of population decline among their native born started to set in. Another constraint on immigration to the United States involves supply. Birthrates, having already fallen well below replacement levels in Europe and Asia, are now plummeting throughout Latin America as well, which suggests that the United States' last major source of imported labor will dry up. This could occur long before Latin nations actually stop growing -- as the example of Puerto Rico shows. When most Americans think of Puerto Rico, they think of a sunny, over-crowded island that sends millions of immigrants to the West Side of New York City or to Florida. Yet with a fertility rate well below replacement level and a median age of 31.8 years, Puerto Rico no longer provides a net flow of immigrants to the mainland, despite an open border and a lower standard of living. Evidently, Puerto Rico now produces enough jobs to keep up with its slowing rate of population growth, and the allure of the mainland has thus largely vanished. For its part, sub-Saharan Africa still produces many potential immigrants to the United States, as do the Middle East and parts of South Asia. But to attract immigrants from these regions, the United States will have to compete with Europe, which is closer geographically and currently has a more acute need for imported labor. Europe also offers higher wages for unskilled work, more generous social benefits, and large, already established populations of immigrants from these areas. Even if the United States could compete with Europe for immigrants, it is by no means clear how many potential immigrants these regions will produce in the future. Birthrates are falling in sub-Saharan Africa as well as in the rest of the world, and war and disease have made mortality rates there extraordinarily high. UN projections for the continent as a whole show fertility declining to 2.4 children per woman by mid-century, which may well be below replacement levels if mortality does not dramatically improve. Although the course of the AIDS epidemic through sub-Saharan Africa remains uncertain, the CIA projects that AIDS and related diseases could kill as many as a quarter of the region's inhabitants by 2010. A FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM Some biologists now speculate that modern humans have created an environment in which the "fittest," or most successful, individuals are those who have few, if any, children. As more and more people find themselves living under urban conditions in which children no longer provide economic benefit to their parents, but rather are costly impediments to material success, people who are well adapted to this new environment will tend not to reproduce themselves. And many others who are not so successful will imitate them. So where will the children of the future come from? The answer may be from people who are at odds with the modern environment -- either those who don't understand the new rules of the game, which make large families an economic and social liability, or those who, out of religious or chauvinistic conviction, reject the game altogether. Today there is a strong correlation between religious conviction and high fertility. In the United States, for example, fully 47 percent of people who attend church weekly say that the ideal family size is three or more children, as compared to only 27 percent of those who seldom attend church. In Utah, where 69 percent of all residents are registered members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, fertility rates are the highest in the nation. Utah annually produces 90 children for every 1,000 women of childbearing age. By comparison, Vermont -- the only state to send a socialist to Congress and the first to embrace gay civil unions -- produces only 49. Does this mean that the future belongs to those who believe they are (or who are in fact) commanded by a higher power to procreate? Based on current trends, the answer appears to be yes. Once, demographers believed that some law of human nature would prevent fertility rates from remaining below replacement level within any healthy population for more than brief periods. After all, don't we all carry the genes of our Neolithic ancestors, who one way or another managed to produce enough babies to sustain the race? Today, however, it has become clear that no law of nature ensures that human beings, living in free, developed societies, will create enough children to reproduce themselves. Japanese fertility rates have been below replacement levels since the mid-1950s, and the last time Europeans produced enough children to reproduce themselves was the mid-1970s. Yet modern institutions have yet to adapt to this new reality. Current demographic trends work against modernity in another way as well. Not only is the spread of urbanization and industrialization itself a major cause of falling fertility, it is also a major cause of so-called diseases of affluence, such as overeating, lack of exercise, and substance abuse, which leave a higher and higher percentage of the population stricken by chronic medical conditions. Those who reject modernity would thus seem to have an evolutionary advantage, whether they are clean-living Mormons or Muslims, or members of emerging sects and national movements that emphasize high birthrates and anti-materialism. SECULAR SOLUTIONS How can secular societies avoid population loss and decline? The problem is not that most people in these societies have lost interest in children. Among childless Americans aged 41 years and older in 2003, for example, 76 percent say they wish they had had children, up from 70 percent in 1990. In 2000, 40-year-old women in the United States and in every European nation told surveys that they had produced fewer children than they intended. Indeed, if European women now in their 40s had been able to produce their ideal number of children, the continent would face no prospect of population loss. The problem, then, is not one of desire. The problem is that even as modern societies demand more and more investment in human capital, this demand threatens its own supply. The clear tendency of economic development is toward a more knowledge-based, networked economy in which decision-making and responsibility are increasingly necessary at lower levels. In such economies, however, children often remain economically dependent on their parents well into their own childbearing years because it takes that long to acquire the panoply of technical skills, credentials, social understanding, and personal maturity that more and more jobs now require. For the same reason, many couples discover that by the time they feel they can afford children, they can no longer produce them, or must settle for just one or two. Meanwhile, even as aging societies become more and more dependent on the human capital parents provide, parents themselves get to keep less and less of the wealth they create by investing in their children. Employers make use of the skills parents endow their children with but offer parents no compensation. Governments also depend on parents to provide the next generation of taxpayers, but, with rare exception, give parents no greater benefits in old age than non-parents. To change this pattern, secular societies need to rethink how they go about educating young adults and integrating them into the work force, so that tensions between work and family are reduced. Education should be a lifetime pursuit, rather than crammed into one's prime reproductive years. There should also be many more opportunities for part-time and flex-time employment, and such work should offer full health and pension benefits, as well as meaningful career paths. Governments must also relieve parents from having to pay into social security systems. By raising and educating their children, parents have already contributed hugely (in the form of human capital) to these systems. The cost of their contribution, in both direct expenses and forgone wages, is often measured in the millions. Requiring parents also then to contribute to payroll taxes is not only unfair, but imprudent for societies that are already consuming more human capital than they produce. To cope with the diseases of affluence that make older workers less productive, rich societies must make greater efforts to promote public health. For example, why not offer reduced health care premiums to those who quit smoking, lose weight, or can demonstrate regular attendance in exercise programs? Why not do more to discourage sprawling, automobile-dependent patterns of development, which have adverse health effects including pollution, high rates of auto injuries and death, sedentary lifestyles, and social isolation? Modern, high-tech medicine, even for those who can afford it, does little to promote productive aging because by the time most people come to need it, their bodies have already been damaged by stress, indulgent habits, environmental dangers, and injuries. For all they spend on health care, Americans enjoy no greater life expectancy than the citizens of Costa Rica, where per capita health expenditure is less than $300. In his 1968 bestseller "The Population Bomb," Paul Ehrlich warned, "The battle to feed all of humanity is over. In the 1970s the world will undergo famines -- hundreds of millions of people are going to starve to death in spite of any crash programs embarked upon now." Fortunately, Ehrlich's prediction proved wrong. But having averted the danger of overpopulation, the world now faces the opposite problem: an aging and declining population. We are, in one sense, lucky to have this problem and not its opposite. But that doesn't make the problem any less serious, or the solutions any less necessary. www.foreignaffairs.org is copyright 2002--2004 by the Council on Foreign Relations. All rights reserved. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 00:09:59 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:09:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050115002328.69106.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116000959.79557.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It doesn't appear McCarthy harmed the cause of anti-communism much if at all. Besides, again, there is no point in second-guessing history except as a what-if game. To get back to my original point, what was negative about '50s was the black poverty rate being at 50%. Allen Dulles mentioned to Truman or Eisenhower that something had to be done concerning black poverty so that the Soviets, and Communists in general, couldn't use it against us both domestically and internationally. >Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: >McCarthy could not have hurt the cause of >anti-communism more if he tried. I have sometimes >wondered if *he* was the mole in the government, but >people have been looking through the old Soviet >archives long enough now that it would have turned up >if he was. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nedlt at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 00:56:08 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 16:56:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unintended consequence Message-ID: <20050116005608.80059.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Someone here mentioned sexual matters in '50s. It's true oral contraception wasn't widely available in that decade, nor was abortion. The upside was-- just as one example-- AIDS did not exist in the '50s. So a couple could go to a drive-in and not worry about anything more dangerous than VD or pregnancy. This is the sort of unintended consequence that keeps conservatives in business. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 02:46:08 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:46:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] can't second guess history In-Reply-To: <20050116000959.79557.qmail@web30001.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116024608.37116.qmail@web12906.mail.yahoo.com> McCarthy advanced the cause of anti-communism because both the Democrats, who were hip deep in communists, and the Republican party apparatchicks, didn't want to deal with the problem. The people in the media latched onto McCarthy and staged a lot of histrionic BS specifically because they were comrades of those on the suspect lists. For example, the fellow who cried on TV asking McCarthy if he had any shame was a communist, and his performance was specifically staged for propaganda purposes. The incident he was claiming to be so upset about was that another witness had committed suicide by shooting himself twice and throwing himself from a balcony, if that can be believed. The witness was volunteering to testify against communists. He was not reluctant, had not been compelled. The communists used the media, though, to claim that McCarthy had driven him to his death. This is all very well documented today. The only people who still dispute it, really, are the willfully ignorant liberals and the fellow travellers. --- Ned Late wrote: > It doesn't appear McCarthy harmed the cause of anti-communism much if > at all. Besides, again, there is no point in second-guessing history > except as a what-if game. > To get back to my original point, what was negative about '50s was > the black poverty rate being at 50%. Allen Dulles mentioned to Truman > or Eisenhower that something had to be done concerning black poverty > so that the Soviets, and Communists in general, couldn't use it > against us both domestically and internationally. > > >Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > >McCarthy could not have hurt the cause of > >anti-communism more if he tried. I have sometimes > >wondered if *he* was the mole in the government, but > >people have been looking through the old Soviet > >archives long enough now that it would have turned up > >if he was. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 02:47:45 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:47:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unintended consequence In-Reply-To: <20050116005608.80059.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116024746.26024.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Sure there was 'oral contraception' in those days, even the nuns taught it to catholic girls so they could save their virginity until marriage. It just took a little more work than swallowing a pill.... --- Ned Late wrote: > Someone here mentioned sexual matters in '50s. It's true oral > contraception wasn't widely available in that decade, nor was > abortion. The upside was-- just as one example-- AIDS did not exist > in the '50s. So a couple could go to a drive-in and not worry about > anything more dangerous than VD or pregnancy. > This is the sort of unintended consequence that keeps conservatives > in business. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do?> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 16 02:50:05 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:50:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] change of topic In-Reply-To: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050112223219.13239.qmail@web12904.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <539760AC-6769-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 12, 2005, at 2:32 PM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > >> I would also point out that even if you live frugally and without a >> second car (not a luxury if commuting by two to different locations >> including one ferrying kids around and taking care of the home), big >> screen TV etc, raising even a small family in many parts of the >> country is barely possible if at all for many single earner >> households in the US. The effective costs are quite high unless one >> does a lot off the normal consumer grid. > > The biggest consumer expense today is debt. Don't get into debt to > start with and watch your standard of living go up. Buy what you need > in cash, don't borrow, don't get yourself in a position where you need > to borrow. Getting off the grid is not hard, and not a sacrifice. Even > here in relatively high cost of living NH, it is only hard if that is > the life you choose. Is debt servicing bigger than rent/mortgage? If so then I am shocked and appalled. > > And don't live some place with a big public school system. People think > that public schools save them time. It doesn't. As we've shown, the > average public school education costs $9,000. If you have three kids, > it is only cost effective for both spouses to work outside the home if > the lowest wage earner has a TAKE HOME income of ~$40k. If you make > that much, you could quit your jobs, keep your taxes, homeschool your > kids, have one less car (That extra $13k covers vehicle loan, > insurance, operating costs, etc. as well as after school babysitting, > etc.), and have the exact same standard of living. > Please show the math. I don't see how you derived this conclusion. How does having one care help as kids and a household both involve frequent needs for transportation? Exactly how do I keep my taxes? Sounds wonderful. > If spousal equality is so important, each could take a part time job > instead of a full time one, share in the schooling etc and have the > same standard of living. Getting off the tax grid is the important > thing. > > All other things being equal which they are certainly not. Two part time jobs at 20 hours/week would lose big on benefits, career advancement and so on. Again, how do we get off the tax grid without risking major lack of extropy in a prison cell? I really very much would like to know. Reply privately if you wish. - samantha From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 02:58:44 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 18:58:44 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens amateur image mosaics and panoramas Message-ID: The ESA has been a little slow with publicly releasing tons of images, probably because they're busy processing the huge amounts of scientific data from Huygens. Some folks over at the #space channel on irc.freenode.net have filled the void by doing various sorts of processing on the raw available descent images, producing a number of fantastic panoramas, compositions, and animations. Most of these are described on this page: http://anthony.liekens.net/index.php/Main/Huygens Some of the best composites are these, which show the landing position on the Cassini orbital view, the far-away Huygens view, and the final close-up view: http://spacescience.ca/titan/Titan_huygens_landing_site_mosaic.jpg http://spacescience.ca/titan/Titan_huygens_landing_site_mosaic_big.jpg Also, here's a cool animation made from the images on the surface. Unless I'm mistaken, it looks like there's some things (raindrops?) zipping by the camera: http://www.mars.asu.edu/~gorelick/huygens1.gif The raw images (367 total triple-views) are available here: http://spacescience.ca/titan/raw/ I've taken the liberty of cropping out and separating the individual camera views, which should make them more suitable for creating composites and panoramas: http://www.its.caltech.edu/~neilh/huygens/huygens_image_triplets_separated.zip The following program may be useful for creating composite images: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~mbrown/autostitch/autostitch.html -- Neil Halelamien From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 16 07:42:41 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:42:41 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Dirk Bruere wrote: >> http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm > > Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: > > 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic wave > of any reasonable coherence? HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun mix of science, paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It is difficult to separate firm ground from swamp. > (Sorry, the world's > satellite networks *AREN'T* up to the task. Neither > are more conventional broadcast networks. And that's > assuming either one could be coopted by one central > organization, and assumption that is easily shown > false if you take a look at the wide range of > organizations that actually operate the various > satellites and transmitters.) > > 1a. Specifically, how to do the above with the > exceedingly high precision necessary for neural > induction? > > 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through > induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague > "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that seems to > be about as far as anyone's gotten? Not quite. There may have been work done in this area as part of MKULTRA and other projects that came out due to FOIA. http://educate-yourself.org/mc/listofmcsymptoms05jun03.shtml http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/anti-personal-electromagnet-weapons.htm > > 3 and most importantly. Even if this were feasable, it > would be a rather unextropian act. The ends do not > justify the means; eradicating all who oppose us (say, > by reprogramming them away) is very unlikely to > actually lead to the society that we desire, as > demonstrated by the results of comparable approaches > (genocide, eugenics) in the past. (A case could be > made that it's theoretically possible to achieve what > we want by these methods, if one studies why the > previous attempts failed. But that is irrelevant > here, since this just proposes a new method of > controlling people without addressing why trying to > control people - regardless of exact method - has > failed.) > > My initial take is that stuff like this has no place > on the extropy-chat list...though I might be wrong. > It would be advisable to be aware of such things. We could easily become victims of such otherwise. Question: If you had a friend about to commit suicide and you have exhausted all means of persuasion, are you justified in stopping them, against their will, from taking their live? Are you justified if you know that later they will sincerely thank you if you successfully intervene? Not an easy question to answer, is it? Or is it? Now suppose that it wasn't a friend about to commit suicide but humanity itself willfully headed for almost certain destruction? If you thought you could do something, even if against what all the world said it wanted, even against your own principles of the boundaries ruled by respect for the free will of others, would you? I hope that is an easier question. But it is a question. - samantha From sjatkins at mac.com Sun Jan 16 07:50:48 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2005 23:50:48 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <20050113070156.15696.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050113070156.15696.qmail@web81607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55CCC348-6793-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> On Jan 12, 2005, at 11:01 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >> On Jan 11, 2005, at 9:01 AM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >>> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: >>>> This would be equivalent to claiming >>>> that chemistry was >>>> actually modern alchemy >>> >>> It is, in fact. Trace the history of chemistry: >> there >>> is no question among serious historians that >> modern >>> chemistry had its origins in alchemy. >> >> Having origins in and being the same as are quite >> different things, yes? > > Yes, but that was not quite what was stated. > "Chemistry" != "alchemy", but "chemistry" = "modern > alchemy". Note the "modern", which can be read as > "has origins in". > Not with a lot of justification it can't. Where exactly do you draw boundaries about the meaning of a word? >> Why attempt to twist yourself into a pretzel >> like this? > > To demonstrate why caution should be taken when > choosing one's words. ;) In this case, what you > probably meant to say was just "chemistry was actually > alchemy", not "chemistry was actually modern alchemy". > I am perfectly content with the original word. I am not content with this "lesson" I neither asked for or need. > It's semantics, true. But semantics can be (and often > are) used by our opponents to twist the meanings of > our words far away from what we meant, even while > keeping them perfectly in context. This was a > relatively minor example. > Thanks loads I'm sure. - samantha From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 11:04:32 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:04:32 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Spray-On Solar-Power Cells Are True Breakthrough Message-ID: <470a3c520501160304600ad734@mail.gmail.com> If reliable, this news item is very significant and could mark the transition of solar energy from nice experiment to viable operational alternative to fossil fuels. Scientists have invented a plastic solar cell that can turn the sun's power into electrical energy, even on a cloudy day. The plastic material uses nanotechnology and contains the first solar cells able to harness the sun's invisible, infrared rays. The breakthrough has led theorists to predict that plastic solar cells could one day become five times more efficient than current solar cell technology. Like paint, the composite can be sprayed onto other materials and used as portable electricity. A sweater coated in the material could power a cell phone or other wireless devices. A hydrogen-powered car painted with the film could potentially convert enough energy into electricity to continually recharge the car's battery. The researchers envision that one day "solar farms" consisting of the plastic material could be rolled across deserts to generate enough clean energy to supply the entire planet's power needs. "Flexible, roller-processed solar cells have the potential to turn the sun's power into a clean, green, convenient source of energy," said John Wolfe, a nanotechnology venture capital investor at Lux Capital in New York City. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0114_050114_solarplastic.html From pgptag at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 11:16:43 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:16:43 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics Message-ID: <470a3c5205011603161ed28cf3@mail.gmail.com> Slashdot:The Economist has a story today introducing the concept of Neuroeconomics, which uses brain scanning technology and neuroscience to create new economic models and theories. [http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/16/001241&tid=98&tid=191&tid=14] The Economist: The current bout of research is made possible by the arrival of new technologies such as functional magnetic-resonance imaging, which allows second-by-second observation of brain activity. At several American universities, economists and their collaborators in the neurosciences have been placing human subjects in such brain scanners and asking them to perform a variety of economic tasks and games. For example, the idea that humans compute the "expected value" of future events is central to many economic models. Whether people will invest in shares or buy insurance depends on how they estimate the odds of future events weighted by the gains and losses in each case. Your pension, for example, might have a very low expected value if there is a large probability that bonds and shares will plunge just before you retire. [http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3556121] From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 16 17:11:20 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 10:11:20 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator Message-ID: <41EAA038.14A8B0DD@mindspring.com> On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 16:04:03 -0700, "Terry W. Colvin" fwded: >I'd been under the impression that a lunar elevator >wouldn't work; it'd be too long or something. >However I see another view at >< http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/lunar_space_elevator.html > >Pearson is proposing that NASA launch a spacecraft >carrying a huge spool of cable to the L1 point. >It would slowly back away from the L1 point as it >unspooled its cable down to the surface of the Moon. Terry may well be right in his impression that this wouldn't work, indeed *any* space elevator would be subject to a number of fundamental problems. None of the discussions I've read about space elevators addresses the problem of dealing with Coriolis forces. The further any part of the elevator system (cables, orbiting anchors, etc.) get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system linear and stable. The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. Robin Hill, STEAMY BESS, Brough, East Yorkshire. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 17:46:21 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 18:46:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <41EAA038.14A8B0DD@mindspring.com> References: <41EAA038.14A8B0DD@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20050116174621.GQ9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 10:11:20AM -0700, Terry W. Colvin wrote: > Terry may well be right in his impression that this wouldn't work, indeed *any* > space elevator would be subject to a number of fundamental problems. None of the > discussions I've read about space elevators addresses the problem of dealing > with Coriolis forces. The further any part of the elevator system (cables, He wasn't searching very hard, obviously. http://www.isr.us/spaceelevatorconference/pdf/Gassend/SpaceElevatorDynamics.pdf is the second hit on http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&c2coff=1&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=coriolis+space+elevator&btnG=Search > orbiting anchors, etc.) get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force > tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system linear and stable. > The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon and > increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a perfectly straight > cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's > Rendezvous with Rama. > > Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've got the wrong > end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators do sound like a bit of a > non-starter to me. http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/lunar_space_elevator.html is far more interesting than any terrestrian elevator. > Robin Hill, STEAMY BESS, Brough, East Yorkshire. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 18:26:29 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:26:29 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116182628.GV9221@leitl.org> On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 04:06:11PM -0800, Stephen Van_Sickle wrote: > > There's no science to be done in suborbital flights. > > It's all been done in > > 1960s with Laika et al. > > Really? Then why did Nasa alone launch 87 sounding > rockets in the last 4 years? > > http://www.wff.nasa.gov/~code810/SRBlueBook.htm > > ESA seems to have an active suborbital program as > well. > > http://spaceflight.esa.int/users/file.cfm?filename=facsrockets Allright, I scale this back a bit. There's no *major* science to be done in suborbital flights. There's some good science to be done in prolonged microgravity. There's some serious science and *industry* to be done on lunar surface. > > SpaceShipOne isn't even a suborbital flight. > > It wasn't? Guess they fooled me. Sure looked like > it. > > Seemed that it fooled some other people, too, who > wanted to book it for science flights. I see you've omitted the "suborbital flight" qualifier. > http://www.spacetoday.net/weblog/entry.php?id=260 > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3722596.stml Last one is a 404, but you're absolutely accurate. People don't understand what 32 MJ/kg difference (between 100 km orbit, and 100 km of what SpaceShipOne did, zero velocity at 100 km height) means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space ... Space does not equal orbit A common misunderstanding about the boundary to space is that orbit occurs by reaching this altitude. Orbit, however, requires orbital speed and can theoretically occur at any altitude. Atmospheric drag precludes an orbit that is too low. Minimal altitudes for a stable orbit begin at around 350 km (220 miles) above mean sea level, so to actually perform an orbital spaceflight, a spacecraft would need to go higher and (more importantly) faster than what would be required for a sub-orbital spaceflight. Reaching orbit requires tremendous speed. A craft has not reached orbit until it is circling Earth so quickly that the upward centrifugal "force" cancels the downward gravitational force on the craft. Having climbed up out of the atmosphere, a craft entering orbit must then turn sideways and continue firing its rockets to reach the necessary speed; for low Earth orbit, the speed is about 7.9km per second (18,000 mph). Thus, achieving the necessary altitude is only the first step in reaching orbit. The energy required to reach velocity for low earth orbit (32 MJ/kg) is about twenty times the energy to reach the corresponding altitude (10 kJ/km/kg). [edit] > Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly > figure of merit for science. Given that the amount of available .gov funds is very limited (and shrinking) questions of ROI is very relevant. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 18:52:21 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 19:52:21 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <20050116182628.GV9221@leitl.org> References: <20050114224729.GP9221@leitl.org> <20050115000611.64849.qmail@web81207.mail.yahoo.com> <20050116182628.GV9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050116185221.GX9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 07:26:29PM +0100, Eugen Leitl wrote: > Last one is a 404, but you're absolutely accurate. People don't understand > what 32 MJ/kg difference (between 100 km orbit, and 100 km of what > SpaceShipOne did, zero velocity at 100 km height) means. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_space Sorry, that Earl wasn't quite the real thing. Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_between_orbital_and_suborbital_spaceflights Difference between sub-orbital and orbital spaceflights From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. (Redirected from Difference between orbital and suborbital spaceflights) There sometimes appears to be confusion among the general public about the difference between sub-orbital and orbital spaceflights. This article is an attempt to clarify this issue. It also elaborates on the technical implications of the differences between orbital and sub-orbital spaceflights. A spaceflight is a flight into or through space. The craft which undertakes a spaceflight is called a spacecraft. The general public often thinks of orbital spaceflights as spaceflights and of sub-orbital spaceflights as "something less than actual spaceflights". This is not accurate; both orbital and sub-orbital spaceflights are true spaceflights. The term orbit can be used in two ways: it can mean a trajectory in general, or it can mean a closed trajectory. The terms sub-orbital and orbital spaceflights refer to the latter: an orbital spaceflight is one which completes an orbit fully around the central body. For a flight from Earth to be a spaceflight, the spacecraft has to ascend from Earth and at the very least go past the edge of space. The edge of space is, for the purpose of space flight, often accepted to lie at a height of 100 km (62 miles) above mean sea level. Any flight that goes higher than that is by definition a spaceflight. Where the Earth's atmosphere ends space begins but the atmosphere fades out gradually so the precise boundary is difficult to ascertain - hence the need for an arbitrary altitude for the edge of space. Contents [showhide] 1 Angular velocity 2 Difference in the real world 2.1 Atmospheric reentry a much bigger challenge with orbital flights 3 Summary 4 See also [edit] Angular velocity An orbital spaceflight is achieved when the spacecraft travels around the Earth in space at sufficient lateral velocity (or equivalently, enough angular velocity) for the centrifugal force to cancel out the pull of Earth's gravity. Lateral velocity is the speed of something around an object and it is this which is the critical factor. Although the angular velocity required is a function of the height of the orbit, orbital spaceflight is possible at any altitude beyond the edge of space. A body which does not have sufficient angular velocity cannot orbit the Earth. The actual speed of a sub-orbital spacecraft could exceed that of an orbital one and the height that a sub-orbital spacecraft attains may even exceed that of an orbital one, but the critical difference between the two - the achieving of an orbit - depends crucially on the angular velocity. Travelling straight up will never result in an orbit, doing so faster than escape velocity will have the obvious effect and orbit is still not attained. [edit] Difference in the real world That said, typical sub-orbital craft need go only just past the accepted edge of space (at 100 km / 62.5 miles) for the flight to be a spaceflight. At this arbitrary boundary there is still too much atmosphere present for a long term stable low earth orbit (LEO). In order to be stable for more than just a few weeks or months the satellite or spacecraft is placed in orbit at an altitude where drag from the atmosphere truly is negligible. A stable LEO is usually at least 350 km up. But again, the difference in height should not be overemphasized: Whether the altitude is 100 km or 350 km the distance from the centre of the Earth is only different by less than four percent. The difference between the lowest speeds required for orbital and sub-orbital space flights is substantial: a spacecraft must reach about 18,000 mph to attain orbit. This compares to the relatively modest 2,500-3,000 mph typically attained for sub-orbital crafts. The important difference in energy requirements between a sub-orbital spaceflight such as that required for the X Prize and for an orbital spaceflight is that no lateral or angular velocity is required for the sub-orbital flight. The energy required to get to 100 km or even 350 km altitude is dwarfed by the energy required for the necessary lateral velocity of orbital space flight. In terms of energy: accelerating a spacecraft to orbital speed requires about 31 times as much net energy as just lifting it to a height of 100 km (together 32 times), see computation. But this is the energy which must be imparted to the orbiting mass: For a rocket the fuel and oxygen (and their tanks) must be accelerated as well and so the energy requirement is actually much more than the factor of 32 identified. (See the rocket equation article for a more detailed treatment). In terms of the semi-major axes a of the elliptic orbits: the total specific orbital energy is \epsilon=-{\mu\over{2a}} where \mu\, is the standard gravitational parameter. Being at rest at the surface of the Earth corresponds to a = R / 2 (with R the radius of the Earth). Reaching a height of 100 km means an increase of a of 50 km, while a LEO requires an increase of a of more than 3000 km. See also low-energy trajectories. A vertical sub-orbital flight with the same energy as a LEO would reach a height of ca. 7000 km above the surface. [edit] Atmospheric reentry a much bigger challenge with orbital flights Because of that speed difference, atmospheric reentry is much more difficult for orbital flights than it is for sub-orbital flights. Note however, that such considerations only apply to orbital flights where the vehicle needs to return to Earth intact. If the vehicle is, say, a satellite that is ultimately expendable, then there naturally is no need to worry about reentry. Returning craft though (including all potentially manned craft), have to find a way of slowing down as much as possible while still in higher atmospheric layers and avoid plunging downwards too quickly. To date (as of 2004), the problem of deceleration from orbital speeds has mainly been solved through aerobraking, ie. using the atmospheric drag itself to slow down. On an orbital space flight initial deceleration is provided by the retrofiring of the craft's rocket engines. Aerobraking in turn has so far mainly been achieved through orienting the returning space craft to fly at a high drag attitude coupled with ultra strong heat shields on the space craft, to protect against the high temperatures generated by atmospheric compression and friction caused by passing through the atmosphere at supersonic speeds. The thermal energy is dissipated mainly as infrared radiation. Sub-orbital space flights, being at a much lower speed, do not generate anywhere near as much heat upon re-entry. This has allowed maverick aircraft designer Burt Rutan recently (July 2004) to demonstrate an alternative or complementary approach to heat shield dependant reentry with the suborbital SpaceShipOne. It may be possible that the concepts utilized in SpaceShipOne's design can be applied to orbital space craft design and result in a markedly reduced need for a massive heat shield. Currently however, the need for an ultra high-performance and ultra reliable heat shield is a major difference between crafts designed for orbital flights (as opposed to sub-orbital ones). [edit] Summary * Sub-orbital spaceflights flights are spaceflights just as orbital * flights are. * Both go beyond the atmosphere and past the edge of space. * A sub-orbital flight can reach a higher height than an orbital one. * The most important requirement for an orbital flight over a sub-orbital * one is speed. * The shock wave produced by high speed atmospheric reentry generates * lots of heat from which the spacecraft must be protected. [edit] See also * Boundary to space * Low Earth orbit * Atmospheric reentry * Aerobraking Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Difference_between_sub-orbital_and_orbital_spaceflights" Categories: Space | Human spaceflight > > ... > > Space does not equal orbit > > A common misunderstanding about the boundary to space is that orbit occurs by > reaching this altitude. Orbit, however, requires orbital speed and can > theoretically occur at any altitude. Atmospheric drag precludes an orbit that > is too low. > > Minimal altitudes for a stable orbit begin at around 350 km (220 miles) above > mean sea level, so to actually perform an orbital spaceflight, a spacecraft > would need to go higher and (more importantly) faster than what would be > required for a sub-orbital spaceflight. > > Reaching orbit requires tremendous speed. A craft has not reached orbit until > it is circling Earth so quickly that the upward centrifugal "force" cancels > the downward gravitational force on the craft. Having climbed up out of the > atmosphere, a craft entering orbit must then turn sideways and continue > firing its rockets to reach the necessary speed; for low Earth orbit, the > speed is about 7.9km per second (18,000 mph). Thus, achieving the necessary > altitude is only the first step in reaching orbit. > > The energy required to reach velocity for low earth orbit (32 MJ/kg) is about > twenty times the energy to reach the corresponding altitude (10 kJ/km/kg). > [edit] > > > Which is all moot, since "per minute" is a very silly > > figure of merit for science. > > Given that the amount of available .gov funds is very limited > (and shrinking) questions of ROI is very relevant. > > -- > Eugen* Leitl leitl > ______________________________________________________________ > ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org > 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE > http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From fortean1 at mindspring.com Sun Jan 16 19:31:22 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:31:22 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD (SK) Re: Yes!! Huygens is on Titan Message-ID: <41EAC10A.19EE9365@mindspring.com> From: "Trev" wrote: > > It's certainly amazing to think of a spacecraft landing on something so far > away IMO it's an astounding engineering as well as scientific feat. The whole thing appears to have been virtually flawless, this being especially impressive since it was a first (and only) attempt. The sad part is we will not likely see a followup for many years especially now that Dubya has his heart set on exorbitant low return stuff like the manned Mars & Moon mission. If I were King, I would can the manned flights, including the ISS, and concentrate on what NASA (and everyone else) does best. and no doubt scientists are going to be busy interpreting data from it > for a while but a couple of things puzzle. What was the point of a > microphone, and why didn't they put a video camera on the thing? The microphone was to listen for noise in Titan's atmosphere such as from possible nearby thunder storms or howling winds. I listened to the playback but it was quite uneventful (a kind of roaring noise which I guess was simply microphone noise from passage through the atmosphere). I assume a video camera (as opposed to a still camera) was not used due to bandwidth limitations and the likelihood that better images can be obtained with a still camera especially considering the low light level at Titan. -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 20:12:02 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 12:12:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <20050116174621.GQ9221@leitl.org> Message-ID: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> --- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force > > tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system > > linear and stable. > > The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon > > and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a > > perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the > > curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. > > > > Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've > > got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators > > do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. An earth cable would curve because of lunar tidal influence only, putting tidal drag on the ends. A lunar cable at the inner lagrange point would be tidally locked with the moon, and would be curved by the tidal drag of the Earth. However, this only assumes that there is no other tension. If, for instance, the CG of the skyhook is slightly higher than geostationary orbit (or just earthside of the inner lagrange point), and the ground end is anchored sufficently, tension will keep the cable taught. Because the system is in tension from these forces, anchoring the end to the ground will translate tangential forces into tension forces that are merely pre-existing frame dragging forces in the earth-moon system. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 16 20:15:02 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:15:02 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Titan_=A0?= Message-ID: <20050116200936.M91800@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Mike Lorrey: >One does need to ask what the value of a data minute >of particle and field data is worth versus photography of planets and >moons, radar mapping, etc. Since 99% of the universe is in a plasma state, I think that the particle and fields data is quite valuable. Those of us, on top of rocks such as this, live in special conditions. >As for Huygens, maybe it is because of the age of the probes, but >after seeing the pictures from the Mars Rovers, the miniscule low >resolution pictures sent back by Huygens are a little >disappointing. Sorry, you are so disappointed in Huygens. My view is that it was an engineering and scientific achievment like no other in the planetary sciences (you might look at your favorite Mars missions, and note the failures). It also looks like you have made your judgement based on zero of the data from the other five instruments. Re: Image data. 1) You are judging alot from 3/350 of the visible data you have seen at the web sites. 2) I wonder why you are so focused on electromagnetic wave data only from the visible part of the spectrum. Do you realize how tiny is that part of the spectrum? Yes, I do know that people in general like pretty pictures, but visible light is a very small part of the electromagnetic spectrum, and remote sensing by electromagnetic waves is one part of the measurement techniques available to scientists. [Remote sensing -- which is used by most of the fields in astronomy, with the exception of planetary science -- is also one-step removed from the object that one is measuring. Planetary science is the almost the only astronomy field where one can collect astronomy data in-situ.] >Okay, then my previous calculation makes Cassini's average cost per >data minute on a par with the Mars Rovers. If so, such a valuation >demolishes the idea of "Better, Faster, Cheaper" that Sean O'Keefe >promoted for many years: The Mars Rovers are no cheaper, in data >dollars, than Cassini, which is arguably the most 'expensive' space >probe in history. Cassini was never part of the 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions, that initiative came ten years after Cassini's conception. Cassini emerged from a combination of the cancelled NASA CRAF mission and an ESA mission from the early-mid 1980s. http://www7.nationalacademies.org/ssb/crafcassini88.html http://www.aip.org/enews/fyi/1994/fyi94.014.txt The NASA 'smaller-cheapter-faster' was Dan Goldin's initiative, started in 1994. http://ipp.nasa.gov/innovation/Innovation51/wel2ati.htm Amara From pharos at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 20:18:29 2005 From: pharos at gmail.com (BillK) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 20:18:29 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Are cars on the way out? Message-ID: Wisconsin's small town futurists By Peter Day BBC News, Wisconsin, USA The Midwest is normally the bit of America that people fly over going coast to coast. But what do these small town people think our futures may look like? Well, argue William and Julie Draves, just as the 20th Century started with two decades of huge disruptions to the 19th Century ways of doing things, most notably the car, so our world is in the process of similar radical transformation. This time, the agent of change is, of course, the internet. Despite the dot.com bubble bursting, we have still hardly woken up to its disruptive force. In particular, argue the Draveses, cars are about to go into sharp decline. As increasing numbers of people work from home, using the internet, they will not want to waste valuable time driving, so they will not bother. When they do move, they will take the train, and work at the same time. We parents do not understand our children, say these educationalists, for good reason. They understand the future and we do not. "Nine Shift" by William Draves, Julie Coates Using the industrial revolution as the benchmark and led by the emergence of the automobile at the turn of the 1900s, the authors show what we can learn and possibly use to project the changes in our lifestyles, work, and education as we now navigate the Information and Knowledge Age. The authors cover many topics, such as the Intranet replacing offices, working from home, organizational restructuring, the decline of the automobile and increase of light rail, and the return to the city and the growth of the planned communities. What I found most exciting, however, was what the authors have to say about learning online, the transformation of the face-to-face classroom, the future of the college campus, and the complete overhaul of our approach to education. By the 1920s, the agrarian culture in the U.S. was completely transformed by the Industrial Age. We are now in the formative year of a new knowledge era. Hold on to your seats, because the ride is about to get wild. This book is guaranteed to create controversy and great discussions." BillK From dgc at cox.net Sun Jan 16 20:32:04 2005 From: dgc at cox.net (Dan Clemmensen) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:32:04 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41EACF44.8070800@cox.net> Mike Lorrey wrote: >--- Eugen Leitl wrote: > > >>>get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force >>>tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system >>>linear and stable. >>>The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon >>>and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a >>>perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the >>>curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. >>> >>>Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've >>>got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators >>>do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. >>> >>> > >An earth cable would curve because of lunar tidal influence only, >putting tidal drag on the ends. A lunar cable at the inner lagrange >point would be tidally locked with the moon, and would be curved by the >tidal drag of the Earth. However, this only assumes that there is no >other tension. If, for instance, the CG of the skyhook is slightly >higher than geostationary orbit (or just earthside of the inner >lagrange point), and the ground end is anchored sufficently, tension >will keep the cable taught. > >Because the system is in tension from these forces, anchoring the end >to the ground will translate tangential forces into tension forces that >are merely pre-existing frame dragging forces in the earth-moon system. > > > How important is nutation? From Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it Sun Jan 16 20:35:56 2005 From: Amara.Graps at ifsi.rm.cnr.it (Amara Graps) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 21:35:56 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Titan_=A0?= Message-ID: <20050116203249.M19167@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> I said (wrongly) >[Remote sensing -- which is used by most of the fields in >astronomy, with the exception of planetary science -- is also >one-step removed from the object that one is measuring. Planetary >science is the almost the only astronomy field where one can >collect astronomy data in-situ.] This didn't come out right. I meant to say that remote sensing is the primary method with which astronomers collect data, including those in the planetary sciences, but planetary astronomers have the added advantage of access to in-situ methods. Amara From eugen at leitl.org Sun Jan 16 22:09:09 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 23:09:09 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [forteana] Re: lunar elevator In-Reply-To: <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050116174621.GQ9221@leitl.org> <20050116201202.40226.qmail@web12901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050116220908.GE9221@leitl.org> On Sun, Jan 16, 2005 at 12:12:02PM -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Eugen Leitl wrote: No, actually he didn't. > > > get away from the geostationary altitude, the more force > > > tangential to the orbital path is required to keep the system > > > linear and stable. > > > The orbital velocity has to be reduced approaching the planet//moon > > > and increased in the opposite direction. You'd end up not with a > > > perfectly straight cable, but a curved one, in the manner of the > > > curving waterfalls in AC Clarke's Rendezvous with Rama. > > > > > > Perhaps somebody with more maths than I have could explain if I've > > > got the wrong end of the stick (or lift cable), but space elevators > > > do sound like a bit of a non-starter to me. > > An earth cable would curve because of lunar tidal influence only, > putting tidal drag on the ends. A lunar cable at the inner lagrange > point would be tidally locked with the moon, and would be curved by the > tidal drag of the Earth. However, this only assumes that there is no > other tension. If, for instance, the CG of the skyhook is slightly > higher than geostationary orbit (or just earthside of the inner > lagrange point), and the ground end is anchored sufficently, tension > will keep the cable taught. > > Because the system is in tension from these forces, anchoring the end > to the ground will translate tangential forces into tension forces that > are merely pre-existing frame dragging forces in the earth-moon system. -- Eugen* Leitl leitl ______________________________________________________________ ICBM: 48.07078, 11.61144 http://www.leitl.org 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE http://moleculardevices.org http://nanomachines.net -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 198 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mike99 at lascruces.com Sun Jan 16 23:37:49 2005 From: mike99 at lascruces.com (mike99) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:37:49 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics In-Reply-To: <470a3c5205011603161ed28cf3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The results of this research may indicate why so few people are rushing to support transhumanism, with its promises of large future payoffs for investing in present-day research and such endeavors as cryonics. The emotional brain centers predispose people to favor immediate gratification. Delayed gratification requires thought and self-discipline, neither of which is over abundantly represented in observed human behavior. Another human tendency revealed by this research is the disproportionate fear of loss in situations where the probability of loss and gain are actually equal. As the saying goes, people prefer "the devil they know" (the current situation, even if it is not one of profit and abundance) over "the devil they don't know" (a large potential payoff that entails some substantial risk of loss). This human propensity is exploited by those who overemphasize threats to the environment, or to the food supply from genetically modified foods, or to everyone and everything from nanotechnology. I do not claim that there are no dangers here. What I do claim is that the dangers are often given too much weight when compared to the very large potential benefits. Feeling scared and scaring others is easy. Thinking through the situation and planning a balanced approach to investment and development are hard. Regards, Michael LaTorra mike99 at lascruces.com mlatorra at nmsu.edu "For any man to abdicate an interest in science is to walk with open eyes towards slavery." -- Jacob Bronowski "Experiences only look special from the inside of the system." -- Eugen Leitl Member: Board of Directors, World Transhumanist Association: www.transhumanism.org Extropy Institute: www.extropy.org Alcor Life Extension Foundation: www.alcor.org Society for Technical Communication: www.stc.org > -----Original Message----- > From: wta-politics-bounces at transhumanism.org > [mailto:wta-politics-bounces at transhumanism.org]On Behalf Of Giu1i0 > Pri5c0 > Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2005 4:17 AM > To: transhumantech at yahoogroups.com; hitbangpost at googlegroups.com; ExI > chat list; List for political news and discussion; > futuretag at yahoogroups.com > Subject: [wta-politics] Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics > > > Slashdot:The Economist has a story today introducing the concept of > Neuroeconomics, which uses brain scanning technology and neuroscience > to create new economic models and theories. > [http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/16/001241&tid=98 > &tid=191&tid=14] > The Economist: The current bout of research is made possible by the > arrival of new technologies such as functional magnetic-resonance > imaging, which allows second-by-second observation of brain activity. > At several American universities, economists and their collaborators > in the neurosciences have been placing human subjects in such brain > scanners and asking them to perform a variety of economic tasks and > games. > For example, the idea that humans compute the "expected value" of > future events is central to many economic models. Whether people will > invest in shares or buy insurance depends on how they estimate the > odds of future events weighted by the gains and losses in each case. > Your pension, for example, might have a very low expected value if > there is a large probability that bonds and shares will plunge just > before you retire. > [http://www.economist.com/finance/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3556121] > _______________________________________________ > wta-politics mailing list > wta-politics at transhumanism.org > http://www.transhumanism.org/mailman/listinfo/wta-politics > From mlorrey at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 23:54:09 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 15:54:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan   In-Reply-To: <20050116200936.M91800@ifsi.rm.cnr.it> Message-ID: <20050116235409.68565.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amara Graps wrote: > > Mike Lorrey: > >One does need to ask what the value of a data minute > >of particle and field data is worth versus photography of planets > and > >moons, radar mapping, etc. > > Since 99% of the universe is in a plasma state, I think that the > particle and fields data is quite valuable. Those of us, on top > of rocks such as this, live in special conditions. Yes, but 'quite valuable' is a meaningless term. HOW valuable, in, say, dollars per megabyte of data, is it? > > >As for Huygens, maybe it is because of the age of the probes, but > >after seeing the pictures from the Mars Rovers, the miniscule low > >resolution pictures sent back by Huygens are a little > >disappointing. > > Sorry, you are so disappointed in Huygens. My view is that it was > an engineering and scientific achievment like no other in the > planetary sciences (you might look at your favorite Mars > missions, and note the failures). It also looks like you have > made your judgement based on zero of the data from the > other five instruments. Well, no, I'm not making a judgement about all of the data, I'm making a judgement about the video data, which is of a disappointingly low resolution. I hear that one reason for this is the loss of one of the data channels, according to one article I read. > > Re: Image data. > > 1) You are judging alot from 3/350 of the visible data you have > seen at the web sites. > > 2) I wonder why you are so focused on electromagnetic wave data > only from the visible part of the spectrum. Do you realize how > tiny is that part of the spectrum? I'm not, so it's too bad you are making that assumption. I've listened to the microphone data, and to the radar record, which is likely going to be valuable in providing more geological/geographical data. What I am asking for from folks like yourself who make have better information, is an objective valuation of exactly what such data is really worth, and, particularly, not a lot of defensiveness and evasion. Of course, as an American, I'm not a european taxpayer, so I personally didn't put any money into Huygens, but I am interested in determining if the european taxpayers got their moneys worth of science. $2.5 million per data minute (compared to less than $800.00 per data minute for Cassini and the Mars Rovers) seems so significantly outside the range of other missions that it should be a point of concern for any european taxpayer group. As recipients of european tax dollars, ESA staff should be happy to demonstrate in quantitative ways what sort of ROI they are providing to their benefactors, if only to keep the money coming for future missions. > > >Okay, then my previous calculation makes Cassini's average cost per > >data minute on a par with the Mars Rovers. If so, such a valuation > >demolishes the idea of "Better, Faster, Cheaper" that Sean O'Keefe > >promoted for many years: The Mars Rovers are no cheaper, in data > >dollars, than Cassini, which is arguably the most 'expensive' space > >probe in history. > > Cassini was never part of the 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions, > that initiative came ten years after Cassini's conception. I never said it was. In fact, if you actually read what I said, you would see that I was contrasting Cassini against the Mars Rovers, which were part of the 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions. Based on data dollars, there does not seem to be a higher ROI on 'smaller-faster-cheaper' missions than on big budget missions like Cassini. However, contrasting the Mars Rovers against Huygens, there is a significant difference of several magnitudes. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From nedlt at yahoo.com Mon Jan 17 00:54:47 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2005 16:54:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] unintended consequence In-Reply-To: <20050116024746.26024.qmail@web12905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050117005447.93855.qmail@web30007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> yeah, a 'pill' in liquid form. Mike Lorrey wrote:Sure there was 'oral contraception' in those days, even the nuns taught it to catholic girls so they could save their virginity until marriage. It just took a little more work than swallowing a pill.... --- Ned Late wrote: > Someone here mentioned sexual matters in '50s. It's true oral > contraception wasn't widely available in that decade, nor was > abortion. The upside was-- just as one example-- AIDS did not exist > in the '50s. So a couple could go to a drive-in and not worry about > anything more dangerous than VD or pregnancy. > This is the sort of unintended consequence that keeps conservatives > in business. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > The all-new My Yahoo! ? What will yours do?> _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ extropy-chat mailing list extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mlorrey at yahoo.com Mon Jan 17 20:32:54 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:32:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] RE: Neuroeconomics: Biotech Meets Economics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050117203254.45904.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- mike99 wrote: > The results of this research may indicate why so few people are > rushing to support transhumanism, with its promises of large future > payoffs for investing in present-day research and such endeavors as > cryonics. The emotional brain centers predispose people to favor > immediate gratification. > Delayed gratification requires thought and self-discipline, neither > of which is over abundantly represented in observed human behavior. True, but this should not interfere with what should be a significant number of people signing up for cryonics contracts late in life when mortality is evident, for the same reasons people take up activities of such improbable payoffs such as praying.... ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From neuronexmachina at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 21:42:05 2005 From: neuronexmachina at gmail.com (Neil Halelamien) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:42:05 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <200501171906.j0HJ6KC04529@tick.javien.com> References: <200501171906.j0HJ6KC04529@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 12:06:31 -0700, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org Terry W. Colvin wrote: > IMO it's an astounding engineering as well as scientific feat. I heartily agree, and would love to see more missions like this. The whole > thing appears to have been virtually flawless, this being especially > impressive since it was a first (and only) attempt. The sad part is we will > not likely see a followup for many years especially now that Dubya has his > heart set on exorbitant low return stuff like the manned Mars & Moon > mission. I'm not so sure I agree here. I hate Dubya as much as the next reasonable person, but the Vision for Space Exploration is something that should've been done a long time ago. NASA needs a concrete goal like it did in the 60s to solidify its efforts, and exploration is a terrific goal. Exploration is a step towards eventual settlement, which I'm a big fan of. A permanent, largely self-sustaining lunar base (one of the VSE's goals) is something I look forward to seeing. Also, while I'm a big fan of space science, I'd argue that it should fall under the scope (and have the same sorts of competitive funding as) the NSF, rather than NASA. I think I've mentioned them before here, but I really hope that t/Space (a company headed by David Gump, Gary Hudson, and Burt Rutan) gets the final VSE contract. There's some info on them here: http://www.transformspace.com/Background.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T/Space Their plan call for NASA to act as more of a customer for launch services, with private enterprise taking more and more of a role over time. Eventually private enterprises role would be large enough that the market would be self-sustaining, allowing space endeavours to truly blossom. > If I were King, I would can the manned flights, including the ISS, > and concentrate on what NASA (and everyone else) does best. I partially agree -- I think that that the best thing to do would be to dump the shuttle and ISS ASAP. However, I think it's important that NASA at least provide a market demand for orbital human spaceflights, and help forge the way for an eventual dominance by private enterprise. From thespike at satx.rr.com Mon Jan 17 22:38:11 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 16:38:11 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Tsunami ghosts Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050117163528.019a3400@pop-server.satx.rr.com> From the Manila Times : http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2005/jan/15/yehey/top_stories/20050115top5.html < Saturday, January 15, 2005 Mass trauma blamed for Thai ghost sightings PATONG, Thailand: A second surge of tsunami terror is hitting southern Thailand, but this time it is a wave of foreign ghosts terrifying locals in what health experts described as an outpouring of delayed mass trauma. Tales of ghost sightings in the six worst-hit southern provinces have become endemic, with many locals saying they are too terrified to venture near the beach or into the ocean. Spooked volunteer body searchers on the resort areas of Phi Phi Island and Khao Lak are reported to have looked for tourists heard laughing and singing on the beach only to find darkness and empty sand. Taxi drivers in Patong swear they have picked up a foreign man and his Thai girlfriend going to the airport with all their baggage, only to then look in the rear-view mirror and find an empty seat. > etc. Obviously these are time travelers coming back to record the horrid events, sport among the ruins, etc. Damien Broderick From nedlt at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 03:25:56 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 19:25:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... Message-ID: <20050118032556.63771.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> They all tried very seriously to alter the status quo, and look at what happened to them. But don't think of their fates as murders, no, think of how the innocent bullets were whizzing through the air, minding their own business, when they were so rudely interrupted by the bodies of those famous men. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From fauxever at sprynet.com Tue Jan 18 04:18:08 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 20:18:08 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... References: <20050118032556.63771.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000701c4fd14$c0ef2d90$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" > They all tried very seriously to alter the status quo, > and look at what happened to them. I'm not certain I get what you are saying here. Surely there have been many people who have altered the status quo, and who did not get killed. Observe: A contemporary of MLK - civil rights pioneer James Forman, who died just a week ago - was one of the people who "changed the course of mighty rivers." Cancer finally killed him at age 76, not a bullet. And there have been many like Forman, before and since - fearless, uncompromising, compassionate people with integrity and vision. And since you mentioned JFK - what did he ever do to alter the status quo? (In most important ways he was the personification of the status quo, testing which way the wind blew before commiting his thoughts towards the "right path."). Olga From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 06:16:18 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2005 22:16:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan In-Reply-To: <00ba01c4fa98$e8894620$8e893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050118061618.62384.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > On Friday, January 14, 2005 1:52 PM Adrian Tymes > wingcat at pacbell.net > wrote: > > Sorry, but this is the thing that really sticks > > out for me, much more than the science > > data. It takes *that much* to get a lander > > onto Titan? That's way more than we > > should have to use. We need to make > > space exploration far more efficient. > > Yes, and we already know part of the way to do this: > privatize as much > of it as possible. The other part is to punish many > of those involved > in creating the efficiencies in the first place. Surely you mean "inefficiencies", no? (And I'm not sure punishing the creators would work as well as punishing those who sustain the inefficiencies, in light of better options.) From pgptag at gmail.com Tue Jan 18 10:05:10 2005 From: pgptag at gmail.com (Giu1i0 Pri5c0) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:05:10 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Pravda on de Grey and the quest for immortality Message-ID: <470a3c5205011802055fa858ca@mail.gmail.com> Pravda Online; Contemporary scientists are still trying to unveil the mystery of immortality: they are working with mitochondria - so-called power plant of a cell, which generates power owing to the adenosine triphosphoric acid synthesis. The works in this direction are being conducted most actively in several countries of the globe, in Russia and England first and foremost. Russian academician, Vladimir Skulachev, from the Institute of the Physicochemical Biology of the Moscow State University has made the biggest progress on the way to realize the biggest dream of the mankind. "Old age is virtually an illness. It must be cured like cancer. If I cure a person of his old age, I will cure him of cancer too, age diseases. English geneticist from the University of Cambridge, Dr. Aubrey de Grey, works with mitochondria too. The scientist believes that the life span of a human being will reach a thousand and even more years. De Grey chairs the SENS project at Cambridge (Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence), which studies all possibilities to solve the epoch-making problem. The project's first priority is connected with the restoration of seven major types of molecular and cellular damage. De Grey said that he would need ten years to develop a solution for mice and another ten years to bring the technology into the world of humans. http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/14828_immortality.html From neptune at superlink.net Tue Jan 18 13:15:12 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 08:15:12 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Huygens: First visitor to Titan References: <20050118061618.62384.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002e01c4fd5f$bebd1640$97893cd1@pavilion> On Tuesday, January 18, 2005 1:16 AM Adrian Tymes wingcat at pacbell.net wrote: >> Yes, and we already know part of the way >> to do this: privatize as much of it as possible. >> The other part is to punish many of those >> involved in creating the efficiencies in the >> first place. > > Surely you mean "inefficiencies", no? Yes, my bad. > (And I'm not sure punishing the creators would > work as well as punishing those who sustain > the inefficiencies, in light of better options.) Both. If the creators of them are punished as well as the sustainers, then in the future people will be less likely to create new ones -- or to take actions that might. Imagine legislators, bureaucrats, and lobbyists being ordered to pay for the inefficiencies they are involved in creating or sustaining. Cheers! Dan http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/ From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 14:04:08 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:04:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> References: <20050113063059.33131.qmail@web81608.mail.yahoo.com> <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <41ED1758.2090905@neopax.com> Samantha Atkins wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > >> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: >> >>> http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/mindnet/mn165.htm >> >> >> Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: >> >> 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic wave >> of any reasonable coherence? > > > HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun mix of science, > paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It is difficult to > separate firm ground from swamp. > It has quite an interesting history, and the military has not been short of ideas of how to turn the science into technology. >> (Sorry, the world's >> satellite networks *AREN'T* up to the task. Neither >> are more conventional broadcast networks. And that's >> assuming either one could be coopted by one central >> organization, and assumption that is easily shown >> false if you take a look at the wide range of >> organizations that actually operate the various >> satellites and transmitters.) >> >> 1a. Specifically, how to do the above with the >> exceedingly high precision necessary for neural >> induction? >> >> 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through >> induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague >> "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that seems to >> be about as far as anyone's gotten? > > > Not quite. There may have been work done in this area as part of > MKULTRA and other projects that came out due to FOIA. > > http://educate-yourself.org/mc/listofmcsymptoms05jun03.shtml > http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/anti-personal-electromagnet-weapons.htm > Any work by the military that showed promise would still be classified. >> >> 3 and most importantly. Even if this were feasable, it >> would be a rather unextropian act. The ends do not >> justify the means; eradicating all who oppose us (say, >> by reprogramming them away) is very unlikely to >> actually lead to the society that we desire, as >> demonstrated by the results of comparable approaches >> (genocide, eugenics) in the past. (A case could be >> made that it's theoretically possible to achieve what >> we want by these methods, if one studies why the >> previous attempts failed. But that is irrelevant >> here, since this just proposes a new method of >> controlling people without addressing why trying to >> control people - regardless of exact method - has >> failed.) >> >> My initial take is that stuff like this has no place >> on the extropy-chat list...though I might be wrong. >> > > It would be advisable to be aware of such things. We could easily > become victims of such otherwise. > > Question: If you had a friend about to commit suicide and you have > exhausted all means of persuasion, are you justified in stopping them, > against their will, from taking their live? Are you justified if > you know that later they will sincerely thank you if you successfully > intervene? > > Not an easy question to answer, is it? Or is it? > > Now suppose that it wasn't a friend about to commit suicide but > humanity itself willfully headed for almost certain destruction? > If you thought you could do something, even if against what all the > world said it wanted, even against your own principles of the > boundaries ruled by respect for the free will of others, would you? > > I hope that is an easier question. But it is a question. > Well, having said that may I ask again - anyone in the UK interested in replicating some of this in large field conditions (roomsize for starters)? -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 14:31:35 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:31:35 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: References: <200501171906.j0HJ6KC04529@tick.javien.com> Message-ID: <41ED1DC7.5020704@neopax.com> Neil Halelamien wrote: >>If I were King, I would can the manned flights, including the ISS, >>and concentrate on what NASA (and everyone else) does best. >> >> > >I partially agree -- I think that that the best thing to do would be >to dump the shuttle and ISS ASAP. However, I think it's important that >NASA at least provide a market demand for orbital human spaceflights, >and help forge the way for an eventual dominance by private >enterprise. >_______________________________________________ > > There's only one thing that is needed - cheap access to space. IMO fully reusable launcher development should be a priority. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From neptune at superlink.net Tue Jan 18 14:33:58 2005 From: neptune at superlink.net (Technotranscendence) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:33:58 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments Message-ID: <009401c4fd6a$bfec1f60$97893cd1@pavilion> http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 17:07:21 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 09:07:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <009401c4fd6a$bfec1f60$97893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> --- Technotranscendence wrote: > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the supposed scientists who were so intolerant of his suggestion that the subject should be studied AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women into the sciences. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From mbb386 at main.nc.us Tue Jan 18 18:02:54 2005 From: mbb386 at main.nc.us (MB) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:02:54 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's exactly what I noticed. And his report of what his own daughter did was dismissed/derided. As it's only anecdotal it's surely not scientific, but perhaps it is indicative? How can this Ms. Hopkins justify taking such personal offense at a report of an actual event that she'd walk out of a conference? My own take on this male/female discrepancy is that frequently girls *put down* other girls who are smart. It is very discouraging. There's a point in schooling where some girls have only derision for any girl who studies, does well, excells at math or science. It takes a pretty tough little girl to simply ignore that as it's often the very pretty/popular girls who are doing the putting-down. ... depressing examples from my daughter's experiences omitted ... ... maybe she should have been tutored or home schooled. :( Regards, MB On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Technotranscendence wrote: > > > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html > > > > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the supposed scientists who > were so intolerant of his suggestion that the subject should be studied > AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women into the sciences. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 18:17:25 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:17:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Lorrey wrote: > --- Technotranscendence > wrote: > > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html > > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the > supposed scientists who > were so intolerant of his suggestion that the > subject should be studied > AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women > into the sciences. Science is science, and it's been shown that when you take the sociology out (for example - though possibly not the best example - by separating girls from boys so the girls do not defer to the boys and "play dumb"), female students are just as capable of learning science at male students. Ergo, the favored means is to reform the sociology to remove this effect. The basis and effectiveness of that are up to debate, but that appears to be the basis for criticizing other means. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 18:27:48 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 10:27:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050118182748.99799.qmail@web81609.mail.yahoo.com> --- MB wrote: > My own take on this male/female discrepancy is that > frequently girls > *put down* other girls who are smart. It is very > discouraging. There's > a point in schooling where some girls have only > derision for any girl > who studies, does well, excells at math or science. > It takes a pretty > tough little girl to simply ignore that as it's > often the very > pretty/popular girls who are doing the putting-down. There's more than a bit of that on the male side, to be sure, but apparently not as much as on the female side. One wonders if they might have the same root cause. From jonkc at att.net Tue Jan 18 18:48:21 2005 From: jonkc at att.net (John K Clark) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:48:21 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> "Adrian Tymes" > it's been shown that [.] , female students are just as capable of > learning science at male students. That could be correct, I really don't know, but the above statement is so politically correct it makes me suspicious of its veracity. The extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians also makes me wonder, but like I said I really don't know. John K Clark jonkc at att.net From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jan 18 19:22:44 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:22:44 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 01:48 PM 1/18/2005 -0500, John K Clark wrote: > The extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians also makes me > wonder, but like I said I really don't know. The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me wonder if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male scientists. No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. Damien Broderick From sjatkins at mac.com Tue Jan 18 19:37:34 2005 From: sjatkins at mac.com (Samantha Atkins) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 11:37:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <66905B3C-6988-11D9-9A56-000D93C95F5A@mac.com> His suggestion was off the wall and exploded (so I thought) long ago. It is not the first time he has made strange remarks. There is no "scientific" question involved here. - s On Jan 18, 2005, at 9:07 AM, Mike Lorrey wrote: > > --- Technotranscendence wrote: > >> > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html >> > > What is more surprising (or, maybe not) is the supposed scientists who > were so intolerant of his suggestion that the subject should be studied > AS A MEANS to figuring out how to get more women into the sciences. > > ===== > Mike Lorrey > Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH > "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. > It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." > -William Pitt (1759-1806) > Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 20:01:34 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 12:01:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> Message-ID: <20050118200134.15692.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> --- John K Clark wrote: > "Adrian Tymes" > > it's been shown that [.] , female students are > just as capable of > > learning science at male students. > > That could be correct, I really don't know, but the > above statement is so > politically correct it makes me suspicious of its > veracity. Political correctness, like all memesets of its ilk, contains at least a grain of truth. (The problem being the incorrect things that get built from that grain.) Complete and total nonsense tends not to gain as large a foothold as nonsense mixed with truth. > The > extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians > also makes me wonder, > but like I said I really don't know. Great mathemeticians of either gender are extraordinarily rare, to the point that conclusions based on the distribution seem unreliable due to the small sample size. Even if there is a biological factor, though, the likely gains from reforming society appear to so overwhelm the possible gains from any solution based on gender factors as to make the latter close enough to zero as makes no practical difference. From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 18 20:15:31 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:15:31 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... References: <20050118032556.63771.qmail@web30010.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000701c4fd14$c0ef2d90$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <005e01c4fd9a$78966690$6fb22643@kevin> What do the bullets have to do with it? They aren't just "innocent", but they were inanimate objects at rest that remained at rest until a person applied an outside force and made them deadly. I too am confused about your point. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Olga Bourlin" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2005 10:18 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... > From: "Ned Late" > > > They all tried very seriously to alter the status quo, > > and look at what happened to them. > > I'm not certain I get what you are saying here. Surely there have been many > people who have altered the status quo, and who did not get killed. > > Observe: A contemporary of MLK - civil rights pioneer James Forman, who > died just a week ago - was one of the people who "changed the course of > mighty rivers." Cancer finally killed him at age 76, not a bullet. And > there have been many like Forman, before and since - fearless, > uncompromising, compassionate people with integrity and vision. > > And since you mentioned JFK - what did he ever do to alter the status quo? > (In most important ways he was the personification of the status quo, > testing which way the wind blew before commiting his thoughts towards the > "right path."). > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat From sentience at pobox.com Tue Jan 18 20:06:47 2005 From: sentience at pobox.com (Eliezer Yudkowsky) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:06:47 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> References: <20050118181725.8763.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> <012b01c4fd8e$564f2fb0$52ff4d0c@hal2001> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118132024.01ad6df0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <41ED6C57.70007@pobox.com> Damien Broderick wrote: > At 01:48 PM 1/18/2005 -0500, John K Clark wrote: > >> The extraordinary rarity of great female mathematicians also makes >> me wonder, but like I said I really don't know. > > The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me > wonder if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male > scientists. > > No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. Last I heard, someone was claiming that the means were the same for the male and female distributions, but the male variance was higher. Which I suppose makes sense, viewed as a cost/payoff for an evolutionary gamble. -- Eliezer S. Yudkowsky http://singinst.org/ Research Fellow, Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 13:40:08 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:40:08 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41ED11B8.8090501@neopax.com> Aubrey de Grey wrote: >That's nothing -- check out the accompanying commentaries: > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp > > > Sounds like Britain's view of hitech when I was at research labs in the late 70s. The 'suits' could never take seriously anything us 'geeks' were talking about because we wore T shirts and didn't mix with the 'right people' at the right clubs. I wrote a proposal in 1977 for an 'electronic book' for the GEC Hirst Research Centre. Only found out years later that Alan Kay beat me to it. Anyway, even then the place was called by New Scientist 'The graveyard of good ideas'. Pinned that cutout on the notice board, but it disappeared sharpish. The rest is the hitech history of the UK. 30yrs on, it seems the US is following in our footsteps. The place where things are going to happen is China. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 13:48:41 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:48:41 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] A reflection on the simulation argument In-Reply-To: <200501150110.50362.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> References: <200501150110.50362.diegocaleiro@terra.com.br> Message-ID: <41ED13B9.1000007@neopax.com> Diego Caleiro wrote: >This is a paper I did sometime ago about thoughts on the simulation argument, >It looked prettier in the open office than in mail format, but thats not the >big point about it > I'm not a phylosopher, I'm not even in university, so there might be some >phylosophical or logical lacks in this reflection, Still, I'd like to hear >from some of you what do you think about it. > > >Diego (Log At) > > > >Why I think we are probably not living in a computer simulation > >... >Why I think we are in the real world > > As Nick Bostrom said, the possibility of us being in a personal world (as he >says, a me-simulation) is much smaller than the possibility of us being in a >complete world, but, as I argued before, it is rather improbable that this >world is the best conceived by our other level gods, that created us. Some >philosophers have once defended god existence and goodness based on the idea >that we coudn't be able to feel it, but this is the best world there may be. >Most of the people don't think so, and I don't think our posthuman gods would >create an enviroment like earth, with so many problems for most of us and >solutions for few. > The possibility of us being the creation of a egoistic posthuman, whose >biggest passion is to observe and judge us, is possible, still, it is >improbable that an egoistic superintelligence would be concerned with that. > Conclusion: If we are to assume that a darwin based society developed >post?human? superintelligence, then this superintelligence is probably >altruistic, and therefore, if we are all senscient beings, we would live in a >world with less sadness, hunger etc.. than the world we beleive we live in. >That is why I think this is more probably the real world, the fundamental >level than a secondary one. > > > There is one very good reason to run sims. In a truly posthuman world there may well still be a requirement to bring new intelligences into the society. Since the bulk of the action in a posthuman soc is likely to be in simulation itself it makes sense to 'evolve' new citizens. And one of the best sims (IMO) would be one where normal sim Humans progress through the Singularity (as they did in the real history) to become those posthuman 'new citizens'. It allows those who run the sim to get a good look at their new citizens and weed out the undesirables. I rather doubt that Saddam would make the grade, for example. -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 21:00:46 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:00:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Bill Moyers' Comments - Global Environment CitizenAward In-Reply-To: <55CCC348-6793-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050118210046.49161.qmail@web81602.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Jan 12, 2005, at 11:01 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > "Chemistry" != "alchemy", but "chemistry" = > "modern > > alchemy". Note the "modern", which can be read as > > "has origins in". > > Not with a lot of justification it can't. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=modern 2. a) Of or relating to a recently developed or advanced style, technique, or technology: modern art; modern medicine. > I am perfectly content with the original word. It doesn't matter if you're happy with it. You know what you meant. The point of communication - the entire, sole point - is what other people think you meant. Create an incorrect impression, and you fail to communicate what you seek to communicate. It doesn't matter if you believe it, or if you want it to be true; it's like the laws of physics in that respect. From wingcat at pacbell.net Tue Jan 18 21:26:11 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:26:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <33E036C1-6792-11D9-AB2A-000A95B1AFDE@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> --- Samantha Atkins wrote: > On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: > > > > 1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic > wave > > of any reasonable coherence? > > HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun > mix of science, > paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It > is difficult to > separate firm ground from swamp. >From what I can tell, HAARP studies phenomena generated by nature, on a scale far larger than any organization capable of hiding its activity has nearly the resources to duplicate. (Sorry, even trillions of dollars is not nearly enough to turn Jupiter into a second sun, or even to cover the entire Earth with a very good simulated night sky - as good as what has been observed - to conceal what's really going on up there.) Plus, what's generated isn't very coherent. > > 2. How to manipulate even one single brain through > > induction in precise ways, as opposed to the vague > > "induce a feeling of spiritual presence" that > seems to > > be about as far as anyone's gotten? > > Not quite. There may have been work done in this > area as part of > MKULTRA and other projects that came out due to > FOIA. > > http://educate-yourself.org/mc/listofmcsymptoms05jun03.shtml > http://www.mindcontrolforums.com/anti-personal-electromagnet-weapons.htm Where those create more precise effects (stuff like "generate a sensation of noise" being of equal imprecision, and too vague for what's necessary here), either induction was not used or induction was paired with another mechanism that would be far more difficult to mass-produce than electromagnetic waves. > It would be advisable to be aware of such things. > We could easily > become victims of such otherwise. The ones that exist, yes. This doesn't exist except as figments of imagination, and shows no sign of even possibly becoming more real this side of the Singularity. It's one thing to have an open mind - to accept the possibility of things not proven, but not disproven either. It's another to abandon any attempt to distinguish what is or could be from what is provably impossible. > Question: If you had a friend about to commit > suicide and you have > exhausted all means of persuasion, are you justified > in stopping them, > against their will, from taking their live? Are > you justified if > you know that later they will sincerely thank you > if you successfully > intervene? > > Not an easy question to answer, is it? Or is it? In any real such situation, the answer would seem to depend on the situation. I.e., in various cases that comply with what has been described, either "yes" or "no" could be justified as an answer depending on the rest of the case. > Now suppose that it wasn't a friend about to commit > suicide but > humanity itself willfully headed for almost certain > destruction? If > you thought you could do something, even if against > what all the world > said it wanted, even against your own principles of > the boundaries > ruled by respect for the free will of others, would > you? If I ever came across such a situation, I would seriously re-examine my data. In all such situations that I have heard about (real situations, anyway, where someone perceived this to be the case; ignoring fiction like The Matrix), the reality turned out to be other than what it appeared to be. Ergo, if I perceived this, I would have strong historical evidence that I was misperceiving things. Example: I'm currently working on a nonpolluting power source that, in the unlikely event that things work out as best as they possibly can, could make oil-based power obsolete overnight. Some people could convince themselves that humanity wants to destroy itself through environmental disaster brought on by excessive use of fossil fuels. That perception would create the problem you state above. However, it is not actually the case that people want to destroy the world. They want the power, but if an alternative can be developed that grants that power without damaging the Earth, and all other factors are similar enough, it would likely be quickly accepted precisely because it does not damage the Earth. There are certain moral questions where the answer is neither "yes" nor "nor" nor even "depends", but rather something like "error: situation does not exist; if apparently encountered, attempting to resolve the situation would not be the correct action to take". From cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 18 21:50:54 2005 From: cmcmortgage at sbcglobal.net (Kevin Freels) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:50:54 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> I just read a new story Sunday from my local paper that contradicts these ideas. It stated that girls were kicking the arses of boys in all areas of acedemics right now including math and science. It also stated that a higher percentage of girls are getting high school diplomas and college degrees. Here is the text of the article. I usually wouldn;t post the entire text of an article, but I can't find the link. I saved a copy of the article because I thought it was interesting. Here it is: ____________________________________________________________ Girls are making the grades Educators looking at why girls outperform boys in school By STACI HUPP The Indianapolis Star January 16, 2005 INDIANAPOLIS - What once was a playground taunt has turned out to be true: Girls are better than boys. Girls have eclipsed boys on state and national tests. They are more likely to stay in school and to graduate, and they demand less special attention than boys, data show. That marks a dramatic turn from the time when schools were urged to nurture girls' brains instead of their baking skills. School officials and experts now fear the effort to pull girls up to an equal footing had an unintended consequence. "Boys are lagging, and in my view we are seeing the tip of a very serious national problem," said Judith Kleinfeld, a psychology professor at the University of Alaska in Fairbanks. A U.S. Department of Education study noted the academic edge that boys once held has vanished. For the past two years in Indiana, girls in third, sixth and eighth grades have edged out boys on statewide exams in every category except third-grade math. In that subject, girls and boys have been in a dead heat. Nationally, girls already have eclipsed boys in reading and English, but their lead appears to be growing. They also have caught up to boys in math and science classes and are more likely to earn a college diploma within six years, the federal Education Department's study found. The big question with the performance gap is why. Early studies showed that girls mature faster than boys, develop verbal skills earlier and are conditioned to behave better than boys. Today, some researchers link a gender gap in the classroom to a lack of male role models. The number of men who pick teaching careers is at a 40-year low nationally at a time when more children grow up without fathers. And some scientists believe decades of feminist-driven attention on girls has paid off. Colleges offer girls-only scholarships and summer programs for high school students, and after-school programs nurture younger girls like Blaze Stahl, of Indianapolis. Blaze, 9, foundered when she started school. She ignored assignments and goofed off, in part because she found the schoolwork too easy. Blaze's mother signed her up for Girls Inc., a nonprofit after-school and summer program. Now, the Indianapolis Public School 56 third-grader has skipped ahead to fourth- and fifth-grade classes. "I feel more comfortable being myself at Girls Inc. because there are so many bullies at school," Blaze said. "I'm not afraid to act crazy at Girls Inc." Ben Ledbetter, principal at Greater Clark County's New Washington Middle-High School, grew up in an era when boys and girls studied biology in separate classrooms. Now, he has taken a page from his past to improve the odds for boys by separating them from girls in key classes. The split includes reading and math classes, which are at the heart of state achievement tests. "We had some concern that girls were completing assignments much more rapidly and much more thoroughly" than boys, Ledbetter said. The school district's third-grade girls topped the boys by 5 percentage points on this year's Indiana Statewide Testing for Educational Progress-Plus. In sixth grade, the girls' lead grew to 14 percentage points, a disparity that carried over into the eighth-grade level. In math, girls edged out boys by 2 percentage points in each grade. "It seems that our girls are really blossoming and most of the boys are, too, but that still seems to be an area where we have the most struggles," said Tonja Brading, an English teacher at New Washington. "It was like, 'Why do we have this little core group of boys who are underachieving?"' In the fall, girls and boys in Grades 6, 7 and 8 were separated in key classes such as English, math and science. The children mixed during lunch, study halls and afternoon classes. The teachers don't need data to tell them the single-sex classes have made a difference. Boys who traditionally would have turned away from literary heroines in Brading's class now are more likely to read novels like "Rules of the Road," whose author and main character are female. "The boys will talk about a line in a poem that they wouldn't necessarily have talked about had girls been in the room," Brading said. "We really think this is working." ________________________________________________________________________ From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 21:37:51 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 13:37:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118200134.15692.qmail@web81605.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050118213751.39559.qmail@web12902.mail.yahoo.com> --- Adrian Tymes wrote: > > Great mathemeticians of either gender are > extraordinarily rare, to the point that conclusions > based on the distribution seem unreliable due to the > small sample size. Really? What is the distribution of gender to IQ? ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From andrew at ceruleansystems.com Tue Jan 18 22:21:34 2005 From: andrew at ceruleansystems.com (J. Andrew Rogers) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 14:21:34 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments Message-ID: <1106086894.547@whirlwind.he.net> Damien Broderick wrote: > The extraordinary rarity of great male mathematicians also makes me wonder > if there's any point in training all those very ordinary male scientists. > > No, hang on, there must be something wrong here. I would note two things: 1.) Really brilliant people are not brilliant because they were trained. You cannot be trained to be brilliant, as the very definition generally asserts abilities that are far beyond what can be obtained by mere training. And most of the really brilliant people I can think of in history had little or unextraordinary training in the fields their brilliance is noted in. 2.) Math and science are only related insofar as science often uses math. Scientists and mathematicians have very different thought processes. cheers, j. andrew rogers From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Tue Jan 18 22:44:44 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:44:44 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <009401c4fd6a$bfec1f60$97893cd1@pavilion> Message-ID: <007501c4fdaf$4e40a4e0$b8232dcb@homepc> > http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/17/harvard.president.ap/index.html I can't see much in this news article that's actually news. It would be interesting and of course it could have practical consequences for policy etc if real sex differences exist (and I suspect they do, on average, to some extent), but if "the Harvard president" actually said anything substantive about his *reasons* for thinking there are differences the reporter didn't seem to see fit to pass them on. Perhaps the female Harvard graduate was justified in being offended and in walking out of his talk, perhaps not. The answer to that turns on what he actually said. This is more like gossip than news. Its like we're invited to take a side in a battle where the very thing missing is the only thing that would justify taking a side - the truth, i.e. what "the Harvard president" actually said, and more importantly his evidence and reasons for saying it. Brett Paatsch From dirk at neopax.com Tue Jan 18 22:48:16 2005 From: dirk at neopax.com (Dirk Bruere) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:48:16 +0000 Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050118212611.48598.qmail@web81606.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <41ED9230.1050306@neopax.com> Adrian Tymes wrote: >--- Samantha Atkins wrote: > > >>On Jan 12, 2005, at 10:30 PM, Adrian Tymes wrote: >> >> >>>Puh-leeze! Among the rather obvious issues: >>> >>>1. How to generate a worldwide electromagnetic >>> >>> >>wave >> >> >>>of any reasonable coherence? >>> >>> >>HAARP perhaps. This area of inquiry has such a fun >>mix of science, >>paranoia and perhaps not being paranoid enough. It >>is difficult to >>separate firm ground from swamp. >> >> > >>From what I can tell, HAARP studies phenomena >generated by nature, on a scale far larger than any >organization capable of hiding its activity has nearly >the resources to duplicate. (Sorry, even trillions of >dollars is not nearly enough to turn Jupiter into a >second sun, or even to cover the entire Earth with a >very good simulated night sky - as good as what has >been observed - to conceal what's really going on up >there.) Plus, what's generated isn't very coherent. > > The official line: http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html "During active ionospheric research, the signal generated by the transmitter system is delivered to the antenna array, transmitted in an upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an altitude between 100 to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a small volume a few hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in diameter over the site." and the unofficial list of military interests http://www.haarp.net/ The military says the *HAARP* system could: * Give the military a tool to replace the electromagnetic pulse effect of atmospheric thermonuclear devices (still considered a viable option by the military through at least 1986) * Replace the huge Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) submarine communication system operating in Michigan and Wisconsin with a new and more compact technology * Be used to replace the over-the-horizon radar system that was once planned for the current location of HAARP, with a more flexible and accurate system * Provide a way to wipe out communications over an extremely large area, while keeping the military's own communications systems working * Provide a wide area earth-penetrating tomography which, if combined with the computing abilities of EMASS and Cray computers, would make it possible to verify many parts of nuclear nonproliferation and peace agreements * Be a tool for geophysical probing to find oil, gas and mineral deposits over a large area * Be used to detect incoming low-level planes and cruise missiles, making other technologies obsolete -- Dirk The Consensus:- The political party for the new millenium http://www.theconsensus.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 17/01/2005 From thespike at satx.rr.com Tue Jan 18 23:08:43 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 17:08:43 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com> <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118170500.01a78f18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> >"Boys are lagging, and in my view we are seeing the tip of a very serious >national problem," said Judith Kleinfeld, a psychology professor at the >University of Alaska in Fairbanks. >[...] >"We had some concern that girls were completing assignments much more >rapidly and much more thoroughly" than boys, Ledbetter said. Isn't that an interesting way to put it? Not: `"We've had some concern that boys were completing assignments much more slowly and much less thoroughly" than girls, Ledbetter said.' What's *wrong* with this planet? Damien Broderick From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 23:18:30 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:18:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> Message-ID: <20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kevin Freels wrote: > I just read a new story Sunday from my local paper that contradicts > these ideas. It stated that girls were kicking the arses of boys in > all areas of acedemics right now including math and science. It also > stated that a higher percentage of girls are getting high school > diplomas and college degrees. What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high school, the feminazi NEA is persecuting boys who refuse to act like girls with testicles. There are, as a result, now more women than men in college. However, women are still underrepresented in engineering and sciences. They come to par only when you start counting things like sociology as a 'science'. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do? http://my.yahoo.com From mlorrey at yahoo.com Tue Jan 18 23:28:48 2005 From: mlorrey at yahoo.com (Mike Lorrey) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 15:28:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists In-Reply-To: <41ED11B8.8090501@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050118232848.88752.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > Aubrey de Grey wrote: > > >That's nothing -- check out the accompanying commentaries: > > > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/editor.asp > > >http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/02/issue/readme_aging.asp > > > Sounds like Britain's view of hitech when I was at research labs in > the late 70s. I had an exchange of email with the editor. He responded to my characterization of his attitude toward transcendance, when I said, "I'm sorry, but you are inappropriately appropriating transcendance for your own personal, narrow, political/religious agenda. Transcendance happens where people find it, wherever they find significantly different and/or self-altering meaning in life. Finding it in real world technology seems far more non-fictional, rational, and real, than in the way many people find it, in that anthology of historical fiction known as.... The Bible." He replied, "Yes, I am saying that merely because some one says an experience is "transcendental" does not really make it so. To be changed by an experience doesn't mean we have transcended ourselves in any meaningful way. At least that's my opinion. By the way, you're mistaken if you think (as I believe you hint) that I am a Christian or politically right wing. On the contrary, I am an atheist and fairly conventionally liberal. As I think I say in my column, "We are alone with ourselves."" He couldn't reply to the question of, if he is an atheist, and doesn't believe in anything religious, he could claim in any way that someone else's experience wasn't transcendental "enough". Enough for who? I noted that I regarded atheists as much orthodox religionists as any christian, given the paradox of proving a negative. ===== Mike Lorrey Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." -William Pitt (1759-1806) Blog: http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=Sadomikeyism __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au Wed Jan 19 00:07:34 2005 From: bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au (Brett Paatsch) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 11:07:34 +1100 Subject: [extropy-chat] Bad Bayesian - no biscuit ! (was A New Year's gift for Bayesians) Message-ID: <00c101c4fdba$e0a65cc0$b8232dcb@homepc> [I'm back from holidays having done some reading relevant to some recent discussion on this list. Along with part of Popper's _Realism and the Aim of Science_, I reread a little Penguin book on some of Feynman's lectures entitled _The Meaning of It All_ containing a chapter entitled the Uncertainty of Science. In his, imo, well written, and enjoyable essay A Technical Explanation of Technical Explanation, http://yudkowsky.net/bayes/technical.html Eliezer writes (page 32 of 36 when I printed it out) : "Imagine that you wake up one morning and your left arm has been replaced by a blue tentacle. The blue tentacle obeys your motor commands - you can use it to pick up glasses, drive a car, etc. How would you explain this hypothetical scenario? Take a moment to ponder this puzzle before continuing." So I did imagine it. I imagined it in good faith, and I imagined it consistent with a spirit of exploration and good will built that Eliezer had established through the early part of his essay. Where Eliezer had placed "spoiler space", I stopped reading and I wrote down my explanation. (I'd been reading with pen in hand and making critical notes in the margin.) It seemed to be fair and scientific to provide an answer *before* reading on so as not to contaminate the experiment. ) I wrote (and I quote): "I'd "explain" it provisionally as some surprising organisation of people had entered my house and replaced my arm whilst I slept with technology I didn't know existed. I'd be bewildered. Frightened even. But I'd not think "magic" had occurred". And then, with the heightened curiosity of one who has escalated their commitment I went back to see what Eliezer the Bayesian, Eliezer the spreader-of-analogical-probability-clay-mass would have done. And he'd written this. "How would I explain the event of my left arm being replaced by a blue tentacle? The answer is that I wouldn't. It isn't going to happen." Email perhaps can't convey my exact reaction to that but here's the comments I wrote in the margin. ---- "No. No. No. You cheated Eliezer. You cheated ! You can't assign a probability of zero ! * Not fair!! You said it did happen. Your being dishonest with the data to say its not going to happen." ---- Most of what I know of Bayesian reasoning I know as a result of reading Eliezer's two essays on it. So perhaps if my understanding of Bayesian reasoning or inference is wrong I can escape by blaming Eliezer for it :-) I suspect, on the basis of those two essays that I am a Bayesian although I didn't know I was and so I haven't been calling myself one. The merit I see in the Bayesian approach is that it manages uncertainties more carefully and consistently then most people do intuitively. [And boy does the world need that]. So, it's 2005. I'm a Bayesian. And as long as I'm wearing metaphorical teeshirts I'm also a Bright. Regards, Brett Paatsch * Eliezer's assigning a probability of zero to observed facts however unlikely those facts might have been a priori is the reason for my heading this post Bad Bayesian - no buscuit. PS: Happy new year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 19 00:25:15 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:25:15 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <20050118170721.6150.qmail@web12903.mail.yahoo.com><012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118170500.01a78f18@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000c01c4fdbd$596760d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Damien Broderick" >>"Boys are lagging, and in my view we are seeing the tip of a very serious >>national problem," said Judith Kleinfeld, a psychology professor at the >>University of Alaska in Fairbanks. >>[...] >>"We had some concern that girls were completing assignments much more >>rapidly and much more thoroughly" than boys, Ledbetter said. > Isn't that an interesting way to put it? Not: `"We've had some concern > that boys were completing assignments much more slowly and much less > thoroughly" than girls, Ledbetter said.' Yes, interesting. Reminds me of how some females complain about the fact that on average women are left "home alone" earlier to face widowhead and old age and all the vicissitudes of life ... all by themselves. Oh, the unfairness of it. (Men - you simply must contain yourselves and stop dying so early, hear?) > What's *wrong* with this planet? Again, I respectfully submit, we - modified worms* that we are - simply aren't ready for prime time. (*"modified worms" is a term I heard recently being used in a lecture by Richard Dawkins to describe humans.) Olga From thespike at satx.rr.com Wed Jan 19 00:40:07 2005 From: thespike at satx.rr.com (Damien Broderick) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:40:07 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments In-Reply-To: <20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> References: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin> <20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20050118183136.019efec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> At 03:18 PM 1/18/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: >What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high >school, the feminazi NEA Just for the sake of civility, how about we adopt a moratorium for a year or so on cheap gibes like `feminazi', `hoplonazi' and other playground terms of abuse? >is persecuting boys who refuse to act like >girls with testicles. Amazing morphological news: boys *are* girls with testicles. Presumably Mike meant `act like boys *without* testicles'. As I dimly recall my own ancient schooldays, boys who did well at mathematics and science were mocked by other, usually more swaggering, boys as sissies, fairies, ball-less wonders, and so on. Certainly, advanced skill at mathematics--or learning of any kind outside of fixing cars--was not seen as evidence of testicles. Damien Broderick From reason at longevitymeme.org Wed Jan 19 00:53:49 2005 From: reason at longevitymeme.org (Reason .) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:53:49 -0600 Subject: [extropy-chat] TechnologyReview joins anti-transhumanists Message-ID: <200501181853.AA1719861566@longevitymeme.org> I should note, for those who haven't noticed, that Aubrey de Grey made a response that is now up on the Technology Review website: http://www.technologyreview.com/articles/05/01/wo/wo_degrey0101805.asp Reason Founder, Longevity Meme From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 02:32:18 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:32:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... In-Reply-To: <005e01c4fd9a$78966690$6fb22643@kevin> Message-ID: <20050119023218.97907.qmail@web30004.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It was a joke referring to famous people who get shot for their beliefs. You know, as in 'accidentally-on-purpose'. This is not to say conspiracy is necessarily involved, but how convenient. Remember when the Pope was shot? Well, it wasn't just a whim on the part of the shooter. There are conspiracies, real and imagined. --- Kevin Freels wrote: > What do the bullets have to do with it? They aren't > just "innocent", but > they were inanimate objects at rest that remained at > rest until a person > applied an outside force and made them deadly. I too > am confused about your > point. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From nedlt at yahoo.com Wed Jan 19 02:39:49 2005 From: nedlt at yahoo.com (Ned Late) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:39:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... In-Reply-To: <000701c4fd14$c0ef2d90$6600a8c0@brainiac> Message-ID: <20050119023950.4564.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> James Forman wasn't nearly as well known as King. King came out publicly against the Vietnam War, then months later he is shot. Did Forman denounce the war? If he did, was his opposition to the war widely publicised? > Observe: A contemporary of MLK - civil rights > pioneer James Forman, who > died just a week ago - was one of the people who > "changed the course of > mighty rivers." JFK started the Apollo Program, and pushed for the Civil Rights Bill-- passed soon after he was killed. > And since you mentioned JFK - what did he ever do to > alter the status quo? > (In most important ways he was the personification > of the status quo, > testing which way the wind blew before commiting his > thoughts towards the > "right path."). > > Olga > > > _______________________________________________ > extropy-chat mailing list > extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org > http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From aiguy at comcast.net Wed Jan 19 03:23:53 2005 From: aiguy at comcast.net (Gary Miller) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:23:53 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Access to to Digital Aristotle Training Material Message-ID: <200501190324.j0J3OAC14174@tick.javien.com> Does anyone here know of any links to, or have access to the 70 pages of chemistry input material and test questions used by the contestants in Paul Allen's Digital Aristotle project. I would like to see what what percentage of the material can be mapped into my AI pattern matching language and at what cost. Since the it was documented that the contestents spent $10,000 per page encoding the knowledge it would seem to be a good benchmark to measure my tool against. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wingcat at pacbell.net Wed Jan 19 03:25:08 2005 From: wingcat at pacbell.net (Adrian Tymes) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:25:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [extropy-chat] TMS In-Reply-To: <41ED9230.1050306@neopax.com> Message-ID: <20050119032508.64339.qmail@web81603.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dirk Bruere wrote: > The official line: > http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/tech.html > "During active ionospheric research, the signal > generated by the > transmitter system is delivered to the antenna > array, transmitted in an > upward direction, and is partially absorbed, at an > altitude between 100 > to 350 km (depending on operating frequency), in a > small volume a few > hundred meters thick and a few tens of kilometers in > diameter over the > site." > > and the unofficial list of military interests > http://www.haarp.net/ Ah. Okay, thank you for the clarification. (This is why I am careful to disclaim what I am not certain of.) It still does not appear to be coherent enough to precisely target parts of the human brain, though. (Communication and selective spectrum denial, while requiring some control over the wavelengths generated, do not have nearly the required precision - and that's assuming a wavelength could be found that only the desired part of the human brain responds to, thus eliminating the need to precisely target that region.) From fauxever at sprynet.com Wed Jan 19 03:48:01 2005 From: fauxever at sprynet.com (Olga Bourlin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:48:01 -0800 Subject: [extropy-chat] MLK, JFK, RFK, Lennon... References: <20050119023950.4564.qmail@web30002.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <08f301c4fdd9$ad09d5d0$6600a8c0@brainiac> From: "Ned Late" > James Forman wasn't nearly as well known as King. King > came out publicly against the Vietnam War, then months > later he is shot. Did Forman denounce the war? If he > did, was his opposition to the war widely publicised? Forman was an intellectual and an atheist, and therefore did not fit in with the stereotypical image of a "safe" and malleable religious black person. This was also one of the main reasons he did not get as much press. Bayard Rustin was also a historically giant figure in the civil rights movement (in fact, he was the one who was the principal organizer of the 1963 civil rights march), but he was gay, and had a white lover to boot. These were the main reasons he did not get as much press. And so it goes ... Olga From tankdoc at adelphia.net Wed Jan 19 05:03:03 2005 From: tankdoc at adelphia.net (tankdoc) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 00:03:03 -0500 Subject: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments References: <012401c4fda7$c9610140$6fb22643@kevin><20050118231830.87637.qmail@web12907.mail.yahoo.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20050118183136.019efec0@pop-server.satx.rr.com> Message-ID: <000f01c4fde4$28589000$ba33e944@firstbase> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Broderick" To: "ExI chat list" Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 7:40 PM Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Harvard president criticized over comments > At 03:18 PM 1/18/2005 -0800, Mike Lorrey wrote: > >>What is going on right now is that in elementary school and high >>school, the feminazi NEA > > Just for the sake of civility, how about we adopt a moratorium for a year > or so on cheap gibes like `feminazi', `hoplonazi' and other playground > terms of abuse? > >>is persecuting boys who refuse to act like >>girls with testicles. > > Amazing morphological news: boys *are* girls with testicles. > > Presumably Mike meant `act like boys *without* testicles'. As I dimly > recall my own ancient schooldays, boys who did well at mathematics and > science were mocked by other, usually more swaggering, boys as sissies, > fairies, ball-less wonders, and so on. Certainly, advanced skill at > mathematics--or learning of any kind outside of fixing cars--was not seen > as evidence of testicles. > > Damien Broderick This is my third or fourth post in 15 years - on and off - reading this list. While I can understand the offence taken by the terms above I have to agree completely with the premise. Simply watch the message sent by schools that abhor competition, or even the concept of winners since it implies losers. Watch the message the American Media sends in its television commercials, the male is most always the dumb, uninformed or just plain stupid partner. Simply reverse the gender role assigned in most all American TV commercials and ask yourself, would this add be run under those conditions. Sorry if Ive dumbed down the list conversation, it simply hit a hot button of mine. Jerry Imbriale From fortean1 at mindspring.com Wed Jan 19 05:42:26 2005 From: fortean1 at mindspring.com (Terry W. Colvin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:42:26 -0700 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration Message-ID: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> Terry forwards: > Their plan call for NASA to act as more of a customer for launch > services, with private enterprise taking more and more of a role over > time. Eventually private enterprises role would be large enough that > the market would be self-sustaining, allowing space endeavours to > truly blossom. I don't see how this could happen, for how is one supposed to make money out of space travel? There is a small market for firing very rich people, celebrities and the like, into space for fun. (This market is likely to shrink considerably the first time a well-known celebrity re-enters the earth's atmosphere shuttle-like as a collection of glowing embers. Just imagine the interplanetary law-suits that will follow. And of course, in a perfect world some celebrities ought to be fired into space. One-way....) One could imagine such people holidaying (uncomfortably) on a moon base, where one could sell them souvenirs, postcards, air, etc. But there is no money to be gained - at least in the short to medium term - from the pursuit of knowledge which underlies the sending of unmanned missions to Saturn, Titan and so on. What else could we get from these places? Even if they turned out to have interesting minerals, it wouldn't be cost-effective to ship them in bulk back to earth. (There go all those SF films about miners in space....) At the risk of drifting towards the political, the pursuit of pure knowledge is one of those things that the free market doesn't do very well. (There are others, as anyone who has ridden on both Britain's privately-owned trains and France's state-owned trains can testify...) Handing over space to the private realm would lead to a concentration on those things that might make money - holidays in orbit etc - over those that clearly won't, e.g. can we land something on Pluto just to see if it has any atmosphere? Dr Jerry Goodenough University of East Anglia England -- "Only a zit on the wart on the heinie of progress." Copyright 1992, Frank Rice Terry W. Colvin, Sierra Vista, Arizona (USA) < fortean1 at mindspring.com > Alternate: < fortean1 at msn.com > Home Page: < http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8958/index.html > Sites: * Fortean Times * Mystic's Haven * TLCB * U.S. Message Text Formatting (USMTF) Program ------------ Member: Thailand-Laos-Cambodia Brotherhood (TLCB) Mailing List TLCB Web Site: < http://www.tlc-brotherhood.org > [Southeast Asia veterans, Allies, CIA/NSA, and "steenkeen" contractors are welcome.] From eugen at leitl.org Wed Jan 19 08:00:34 2005 From: eugen at leitl.org (Eugen Leitl) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:00:34 +0100 Subject: [extropy-chat] FWD [Skeptic] Re: defending the Vision for Space Exploration In-Reply-To: <41EDF342.97852F24@mindspring.com> Ref