Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] learning to appreciate pessimists

[Samantha Atkins]

On Jul 8, 2005, at 10:57 PM, Claribel wrote:

>
> From: The Avantguardian <avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com>
>
>
>    But if they truly believed their own claims, then
> they would realize that we and our technology are as
> natural as any other species that has evolved to the
> point of out-competing other species. If they truly
> believed that "we are the world" and they truly
> understood the world, and thereby themselves, then
> they would embrace change knowing that the world
> always has and will continue to change, transform, and
> evolve.
>
> Claribel: This is my position exactly. I am both New Age and  
> ranshumanist  -- yes, some people do exist who embrace both  
> metaphysics and advanced science. I do not regard them as  
> incompatible, if each is kept in its proper sphere. I wonder if  
> anyone here is familiar with the Integral approach of Ken Wilber?  
> (http://wilber.shambhala.com/) This philosophy applies an  
> evolutionary approach to all domains ranging from physical and  
> biological to social, mental and spiritual. In some ways, I think  
> it's a little too pat in drawing such equivalences, but I have  
> found meaningful insights in it.
>

Please define "metaphysics" or simply say what it means to you.  I do  
not believe in such separate spheres.   Why is truth to be  
partitioned so?

>
> The Avantguardian:
>
> It also irks me to no end when I see some trendy
> Hollywood starlet who goes on TV on behalf of PETA or
> some such to condemn me for using mice in my
> biomedical research. What truly drives me to
> distraction is that, short of being prevented from
> roaming where they will, those mice live exceedingly
> well for mice....Hell the neighboring lab actually supplies their  
> mice with
> several hundreds of dollars worth of cocaine on a
> weekly basis.
>
> Claribel: Is this for drug experiments, or for pain-killers? I've  
> often wondered why experimenters don't just lobotomize the pain  
> centers of their animals' brains. Could you explain the usual  
> procedures for controlling pain and trauma in laboratory specimens?
>
> I will admit that, since I eat meat and perform ruthless genocide  
> with flypaper and ant traps (almost literal genocide, since I've  
> destroyed several breeding populations in my house), it would be  
> hypocritical for me to condemn the whole idea of sacrificing  
> animals' lives in research.
>

You are aware that ants and termites and such are by far the largest  
part of the biomass of earth?   The little bit of ant death in your  
home is utterly undetectable considering the size of the overall  
population.  Unless you believe it is rational to live as a Jain your  
statements of some kind of guilt in this manner are meaningless.

- samantha