[extropy-chat] what can you show us?

[Robert Lindauer]

In american courts, points of fact are found out in court.

That's why we have discovery.

On the moral point, it's not clear that "scattering the iraqi regime" is 
a justifiable pretense for slaughtering civilians wholesale and 
launching two or more countries into an extended military quagmire with 
daily deaths and mayhem ensuing.

Robbie


beb_cc at yahoo.com wrote:

>Yes, there were certainly options other than the war,
>on humanitarian grounds, but no better way to scatter
>the Iraq regime. That line in court, along with no
>evidence of deliberate malice beforehand in killing
>civilians, would be enough to acquit the
>administration.
>
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>>Impeachment, not war crimes. There is a very
>>different standard of law 
>>well established here.
>>
>>    
>>
>>> Since technically Iraq was in violation
>>>of agreements made previously with the UN, it would
>>>have to be shown America invaded to entirely
>>>      
>>>
>>subjugate
>>    
>>
>>>Iraq and commit war crimes.
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>It hasn't been determined by the UN security council
>>that Iraq was 
>>definitively in violation. In fact, we invaded over
>>the objections of 
>>the security council and the UN weapons inspectors.
>>It turns out they 
>>were right and we were lying, apparently
>>intentionally.
>>
>>    
>>
>>>If you look backwards to
>>>2003 so you can say, "now that we know America
>>>couldn't win the peace, then overthrowing the
>>>      
>>>
>>Baathist
>>    
>>
>>>regime was futile, and the administration had to
>>>      
>>>
>>know
>>    
>>
>>>a sustained resistance to occupation was inevitable
>>>      
>>>
>>&
>>    
>>
>>>unbeatable", that is to say you are attempting to
>>>prove the course of the war was inevitable and
>>>      
>>>
>>America
>>    
>>
>>>knew so in advance. If you can demonstrate this you
>>>have a solid case.
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>No, I'm claiming it was obvious then as now that war
>>is bad and that 
>>there were other options and that the American
>>Presidential group 
>>decided to go to war over the objections of the CIA,
>>the UN and many, 
>>many, many citizens apparently on trumped up
>>"evidence" of Iraq's 
>>capability of delivering weapons of mass destruction
>>(such as having 
>>rockets or nuclear or biological or chemical weapons
>>ability). As a 
>>result, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's died
>>(baathists and 
>>non-bathists INDISCRIMINATELY) and more than a few
>>thousand americans 
>>have been killed or maimed. That there were other
>>options was obvious 
>>and continues to be obvious. That this was a bad
>>choice was obvious then 
>>and continues to be obvious now.
>>
>>This point was made at length, even in this forum,
>>BEFORE the war 
>>attempt. It was made strongly in the UN, strongly by
>>military advisors 
>>to Bush who were subsequently fired, and strongly by
>>American 
>>Intelligence agents who were subsequently illegally
>>"outed" by someone 
>>in the White House apparently as retalliation.
>>
>>How is any of this controversial in the slightest?
>>
>>Robbie
>>
>>    
>>
>>>--- Robert Lindauer <robgobblin at aol.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>What evidence of wrongness are you looking for
>>>>        
>>>>
>>other
>>    
>>
>>>>than piles of dead 
>>>>bodies?  Why aren't they sufficient?
>>>>   
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>      
>>>
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