[extropy-chat] Who thinks the Bush admin lied over Iraq? Onwhatbasis?

[Brian J. Shores]

For me, the simple fact that someone could DIE or be KILLED by someone's
WORDS, be it truth or not, be it "because of the system" or not, leaves me
with enough reasons to be baffled by so many people's support of the current
administration. Even after such cunfusion over their position and EXPECIALLY
with regard to lack of EVIDENCE to back up what they say, it still goes on
virtually unimpeded. America has lost their backbone to Reality TV, NASCAR,
and manufactured scandal, that they have neglected what is truly
important... The preservation and extension of LIFE itself! It is truly
appaling.

Even if that weren't a factor at all in forming my opinion of the
administration, 200 billion dollars (...and counting) is a LOT of money to
be spending on something that is killing a LOT of people, and all begun
because of someone's WORD (i.e. GWB's decision to invade Iraq). I can think
of a couple hundred thousand TEACHERS and SCHOOLS and HOMELESS, STARVING, or
JOBLESS people (not only in the US but in the entire World)who could benefit
from even just a fraction of that 200 billion! Greater Good My Ass!

Are we REALLY supposed to just sit back and TRUST that the WORD given by
some politician is the Truth? I am sorry but I can't place my trust in such
a man as GW Bush, or any part of the current government for that matter
(Except the Delaware D.M.V., they are pretty darn good). They have all
failed to meet my expectations; or come across as not even remotely
reasonable when dealing with opposition to their ideas. 

They have weaved their way into the fabric of this country so tightly that
they are controlling the DESIGN of the fabric, and that worries me. We as
citizens need to be ever vigilant when it comes to the government
overstepping its bounds ethically, financially, and with regards to the
rights of the civillians. We need to put up one hell of a stink anymore for
even a small article of dissent comes to the forefront. Americans have
become drama queens... Engrossed in the artificial drama of reality shows so
much so that they can't see or are desensitized to such drama unfolding in
our real world!

I certainly do NOT support any idea from any person that involves needless
loss of life. I don't think I can make my position any clearer here :D

Peace,

Artillo 

PS:(Yes I've been reading, just lurking a LOT LOL)

-----Original Message-----
From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org
[mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of Brett Paatsch
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:59 PM
To: ExI chat list
Subject: Re: [extropy-chat] Who thinks the Bush admin lied over Iraq?
Onwhatbasis?


Eliezer S. Yudkowsky wrote:

> Brett Paatsch wrote:
>> I've only had time to dip into some ongoing threads but I notice that
>> both Robert Lindauer and Dan Clemmensen have
>> stated that they think that "we", meaning the US, or the Bush 
>> administration, (I'm not part of any of those "we") deliberately lied or 
>> misrepresented the reasons for invading Iraq.
>>  Whilst I do tend to that view, I am not utterly convinced of it yet. And

>> yet it is an important fact, or otherwise, to establish or not surely? 
>> One thing that I suspect most extropian or transhumanist list posters 
>> might agree on, is that the Iraq and terrorism business has grabbed a big

>> chunk of the worlds attention. Attention that might have been directed 
>> far more profitably (to the net human good) elsewhere.
>
> The term "lie" only applies to social systems or individuals whose
> (collective) minds are sufficiently directed to finding truth that there 
> exists knowledge inverted to create a lie.

                                                                If you're 
mired down in a
> political system devoted to finding evidence for particular theories,
> selectively passing on arguments for particular theories, not 
> contradicting the boss, etc., the boundary between dishonest lies and 
> honest mistakes
> is too fuzzy to be worth pursuing.

The political systems we (you, me, all of us) are mired down in are the
systems that we must work with as facts.

The United States, the United Nations, existant systems of laws, these are
constructs that human beings have made. They are natural things.

In the broad sweep of evolutionary time and then historical time these
constructs mark points of human progress and delineate challenges not yet
overcome.

There are reasons, evolutionary and historical, why perjury and oathbreaking
became important to people and became dealt with in our (in human) laws.
There was a reason why the constitution was written with impeachment
procedures placed in it.

It was not so that President's would be pestered by people that didn't like
some part of their personal politics it was because the President is a role
that has enormous power and trust in it.

President's of any political persuasion that break their oaths emperil their
own people and jeopardise the progress that is encapsulated in the best
constructs of government that humans have so far managed to build.

>  If Bush were a scientist publishing a paper on WMD we'd call it a 
> lie.
> But I think it very probable that Bush believed Iraq had WMD.

Whether he had a good faith belief or not is now it seems to me the only
question that remains to be answered.

> Practically everyone did, including me.  You can say we were all,
> including Bush, fooled by a self-deceiving intelligence system for
> which Bush was partially responsible; but the fact remains, we believed it

> at the time.

I didn't believe it. I didn't form a belief either for or against, I 
reserved
judgement.

But what I believed or thought or what you believed or thought isn't the
point.  The point is was President Bush's belief a *good faith* one or not.
Did he *knowingly* break his oath as President? That is something that
evidence can be collected on.  That is a matter intellectually no harder to
determine that for a jury to determine whether a person who has committed
what appears to be a crime did so intentionally or acted without intent to
do harm.

To make such judgements we look at facts.

Brett Paatsch 


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