[extropy-chat] Who thinks the Bush admin lied over Iraq? Onwhatbasis?

[John Calvin]

On 7/13/05, Robert Lindauer <robgobblin at aol.com> wrote:
...
 
> I don't have enough information about Al quaeda and thier involvement in
> the 9/11 attacks to say what I would have done.

Osama Bin Laden released a tape claiming responsibility for the 9/11
attacks, and intelligence places clear links to the Al Qaeda
organization for the planning and execution.  We knew that Osama Bin
Laden was in Afghanistan, and the Taliban refused to turn him over
thereby aiding and abetting terrorists.  What more information would
you need?  If you are interested, there is a whole lot of info
available from which you can draw your own conclusions.
> 
> How can we extract ourselves from these messes in Iraq and Afganistan?
> Now that's a question worth asking.

I spent 11 months of 2004 in the Paktika province of Afghanistan, part
of that in Lwara 2k from the Pakistani border.

I can say from experience, that the Majority of the Afghani people
with which I came into contact, wanted the U.S. to be there, and
firmly believed that our presence was their best hope for a brighter
future.  As a Psychological Operations soldier it was my job to go out
and assess the attitudes of the local population.

> 1)  Impeach our president, admit we were wrong.

I for one don't believe we were wrong for invading Afghanistan. 
I am also not sorry to see Saddam gone, I did a fair amount of
research on Saddam after the first gulf war, and he was a monster.  I
would hope that for the sake of all humanity we might be willing to
get rid of and not coddle the omnsters of this world.

> 2)  Reach out to the UN for assistance in rebuilding Iraq on THEIR terms
> - give it to them!

This I agree with.

> 3)  Extract our troops as quickly as is reasonably possible.

The debate is, what is reasonable?  Is it reasonable to pull out our
troops before a new government has had time to settle in and get its
footing.  For we certainly do not want to leave and create a power
vacuum which would most certainly be filled by the most violent
factions.

> 4)  Reach out to the current "insurgency" and let them know that they'll
> be getting their country back reasonably and peacefully as quickly as
> possible and that they're invited to join in the formation of the new
> government -and mean it-.  

This we do now.  I know from experience in Afghanistan, and second
hand from fellow soldiers who have served in Iraq that we extend every
opportunity to all sides to join in the peaceful formation of a new
government.  We even went so far as to offer amnesty to the taliban
leadership if they would come and support the peaceful formation of a
new government.
  

Perhaps offer to make Iraq a shining example
> of a Libertarian utopia :)

Unfortunately, there are factions in both Afghanistan and Iraq who
have a vested interest in rebuilding the old regime, many who simply
held some power there and would like that power back.  These people
are not at all interested in a libertarian utopia.  As well, while
many of the Afghani nationals that I spoke to were interested in the
idea of democracy, and excited about the prospect of power
distribution, telecommunuications, education and medical care, there
is likely a fair amount of western culture that they will not want or
may not be ready for.
> 
> (as long as I'm at it...)
> 
> 5)  Rebuild our economy by financing a massive alternative energy
> conversion on the same debt we were going to use to pay for the rest of
> the war obviating the percieved need for more exploratory missions to
> the middle east.


> 
> (and now to the soapbox version of attempting to answer your question,
> I'm sure you were looking forward to it)
> 
>  Hopefully I'd have been a better diplomat (yeah right!, me a
> diplomat... I still piss off my wife's cat for fun) BEFORE 9/11 and
> avoided the whole confounded incident. 

Don't be fooled, proper diplomacy is not always "Playing Nice",
sometimes a show of force is the best of diplomacy.   In fact, I met a
fair number of Afghani Men who simply had no respect for you unless
you demonstrated a show of force.

You sometimes have too piss on the cat in order to get things done.
(my wife would definately show some force if I ever pissed on the cat)

 But in the unimaginably unlikely
> possible world where I found myself president on 9/12 looking for
> something to do I'd probably have listened to my CIA/FBI advisors and
> gone in with the toothpick before using a hammer.  If I was interested
> in saving my political career (which would probably be the main reason
> such a world was so completely absurd) I would attempt to have a head or
> two rolling down the table within a few weeks and then some kind of
> back-office deal to appease the attackers and once again restore peace?
> Hopefully the head will have been dead for years so nobody new would
> have had to die...  Maybe...
> 
> No doubt the Taliban were upset by Unocal's insistence on pushing
> through the afgan line -on their terms- and no doubt they could have
> been sated had -someone- told Unocal just to play nice with the
> natives.  But I don't know enough about Al Quaeda's involvement with the
> Taliban and the Saudi government to really have an understanding of who
> to talk to and how to talk with them.  I'd LOVE to know, though.  I've
> read Osama Bin Laden's statement but frankly without knowing in more
> detail how Al Quaeda is organized and what their relationship is with
> their various supporting organizations, I don't have enough information
> to make an informed decision even in retrospect.  It's possible that the
> taliban was so closely aligned with Al Quaeda that 9/11 was essentially
> a first-shot act of war.  If that was the case, I don't know what I'd
> have done, but it probably wouldn't have been greeted with glee by true
> pacifists - would have had to keep it hush-hush no doubt.  It's equally
> possible, from my point of view, that Bin Laden was hired by Bush's
> people to stir things up and save his flailing presidency.  

While I am not a huge fan of the current admistration, for numerous
reasons, I would hardly count them capable of orchestrating 9/11 for
any reason, and the presidency was still fairly new and not flailing
so horribly as to require a 9/11 size event in order to save it.

>In which case, because I'd be such a good president there'd be no need to hire
> terrorists to give me something to do and so the whole event would have
> been avoided.  But this possible-world day-dreaming is always so
> ridiculous after the fact.  The possibilities to explore are the ones
> moving forward.
> 
> I know that the Taliban had terrible treatment of women and that might
> be grounds for war all by itself, but then the Taliban wouldn't be the
> first target if we were starting a war on sexism.  Perhaps to solve that
> problem I'd try something definitively diplomatic (lap dances all
> around?  - just a joke, lighten up people!) 

One particularly rough day in Afghanistan, two patrols had been
ambushed (fortunately only minor injuries on our side) an old Sgt
Major suddenly say, "we could solve this whole thing if we just passed
out Beer, Porn and X-Boxes.


This whole thing is a mess, and it may well get worse before it gets better.
I am confident that it will get better, but only if we engage the
whole world in the rebuilding efforts, and stop supporting tyrants of
any stripe.