[extropy-chat] Why I am No Longer a Libertarian Either...

Thu Jul 28 09:44:52 UTC 2005

Awesome, thanks for correcting me.

1)  What are the sources of your statistics?
2)  How was "blue collar" and "self-made" defined for the sake of the 
study?
3)  What factors -do- contribute to millionaire-ship on your account, 
statistically speaking?

I'm looking for an argument of this form:

Of all American millionaires, 60% of them are blue collar (e.g. had 
parents with little or no money and who weren't able to help them so 
far as even a college education).
Of the people whose parents were blue collar, x% became millionaires.

And by comparison for the inheritors...

Of all american millionaires x% of them had millionaire parents.
Of all people whose parents were millionaires x% also became 
millionaires.

Here's why it's important to put the matter this way.

Say 60% of the millionaires are blue-collar-born and raised and 
inherited no money.  But say that 99.99% of all people are 
blue-collar-born-and-raised and inherit no money.  This would actually 
be a counter-condition to your argument, showing that distribution of 
millionaires in the general population is much higher for those who 
inherited their money (e.g. while wealthy parents make up less than 
1/1000th of the population, their children make up 40% of the 
millionaires, and I'll wager a much greater percentage of the 
multi-millionaires and billionaires, perhaps you could enlighten us 
with this statistic as well?)

Also, you say that 90% are "self-made", this may be so even if their 
parents were millionaires, I assume?  I know a few in exactly this 
position - their parents sent them to decent (but certainly not 
A-level!) schools where they didn't manage to get good grades (and I'm 
not making these guys up, I went to USC [academic scholarship and 
loans, no rich parents here, sorry, hard work and discipline] with 
them, I'm sure even Mr. Moore could attest to the type) and helped them 
out with their first small businesses and they managed to make, by 
earning it, a million dollars.  Their parents expected their money back 
as an investment and got it.  One can say these people "earned" their 
money or one can regard them as being extraordinarily lucky to have 
wealthy relatives willing to invest in them.   For publicly known 
examples, for instance, the story of Bill Gates who managed as a 
college student to get a rather large loan in order to buy DOS from a 
private related source.   One can say "Bill Gates earned his money" but 
it doesn't mean he didn't get a leg up.

I like the drive, ambition, discipline and hard work part.  I agree 
with it, you have to really WANT to be a multimillionaire to be one 
because it's way too easy to stop with half a million and call things 
well and good.    But you have to remember that drive, ambition and 
discipline are not always directed at money.  There are plenty of 
ironman competitors who have plenty of drive, ambition and discipline 
and who still manage not to get wealthy over it.

I think the word you should be looking for is "greed", that is the 
drive and ambition and discipline and hard work dedicated to getting 
more money.

I know one "self-made-millionaire" who is certainly driven, but surely 
no one would describe him as disciplined or hard working.  But again, 
without a reasonable statistical argument, I have no idea whether these 
are really contributing factors.

I also know a millionaire who is self-made except that his parents 
funded him through harvard grad even though they weren't themselves 
millionaires.  Obviously I have a lot of respect for his parents - they 
loved their child so much that they decided to sacrifice their own 
well-being for his potential.  I have little respect for him, however, 
because of the way he made his money (an off-shore financial scam, 
essentially) and for how he treats his family.  But this isn't the 
point.  I didn't claim that millionaires weren't hard working, driven, 
disciplined people.  I just claimed that it's likely that other factors 
contribute significantly since there are lots and lots of hard-working, 
driven, disciplined people.  Martin Luther King, Jr., for instance, was 
hard working, disciplined and driven, just not in the direction of 
millionaire-dom.

I don't hate millionaires, but neither do I want to be one preferring 
to enjoy my modest life as best I can.  Your crude ad hominem just 
doesn't apply.  I like to dedicate my time to other things than making 
money.

Also, do you have reliable statistics on multimillionaires and 
billionaires?

Robbie  Lindauer

On Jul 27, 2005, at 5:25 PM, J. Andrew Rogers wrote:

> On 7/27/05 7:07 PM, "Robert Lindauer" <robgobblin at aol.com> wrote:
>> I'm going to make an a priori guess: far and away the most important
>> factor for becoming a millionaire in the United States is having
>> millionaire parents.  I actually think this matter is decided
>> empirically too.  Luck is only a very small factor as is skill or IQ,
>> etc.  Overwhelmingly inheriting money is the best way to ensure your 
>> own
>> wealth.
>
>
> More clueless bloviating.  Instead of making an ass out of yourself by
> making random guesses that are grossly wrong and trivially verifiable 
> as
> such, perhaps you should spend a little more time on an education.  
> You talk
> an awful lot for having so little to say.
>
>
> The coarse statistics for millionaires in the US:  90% are self-made 
> (i.e.
> they earned it), and two-thirds are "blue-collar".  Inherited wealth 
> is a
> negligible sliver of the statistical pie for how one becomes a 
> millionaire,
> and always has been in the US.  State lotteries probably mint more
> millionaires than inheritance.  On a purely anecdotal level, I know 
> gobs of
> millionaires and not a single one that actually inherited their money. 
>  That
> the majority of millionaires built their fortunes as blue-collar 
> workers
> tells you most of what you need to know about what factors matter most:
> thriftiness and hard work.  Throw in a little ambition and you are 
> well on
> your way to some serious wealth.
>
> I'm guessing you don't like this answer because it does not give you 
> many
> good excuses for why you never got your slice of the millionaire pie. 
> It is
> much easier to blame the rich man keepin' da po' man down.  
> Thriftiness and
> hard work put a crimp in your lifestyle.
>
> Nobody said it was easy but the "hard" part revolves almost entirely 
> around
> having discipline.  And discipline is something anyone can develop and
> foster, not just the children of rich white people.
>
>
> J. Andrew Rogers
>
>
>
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