[extropy-chat] Why I am No Longer a Libertarian Either...

[Robert Lindauer]

On Jul 28, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Rafal Smigrodzki wrote:

>> Or perhaps they direct their energies to other worthy goals like 
>> helping
>> poor people or triathalon running or being good at playing the piano 
>> or
>> something.
>>
> ### This is the second time you refer in this thread to triathlon and
> ironman runners as somehow morally superior to millionaires,

This was not my claim.

>  since
> they channel their energy into running, rather than into the "greedy"
> quest for more money.
>
> There seems to be a strong undertone of Marxist labor theory of value
> in your thoughts, where toil and effort are the basis of value.

This is not my position.

> You do
> not judge an action through its usefulness to other people - you think
> that a millionaire who strove to make his money by building a
> successful contracting business, literally putting a roof over other
> people's heads, is no better than some adrenaline junkie, who burns
> out his body in hundreds of miles of insane racing. The small-time
> pianist, or "something", is perhaps even superior to the surgeon who
> is working backbreaking hours to save lives (but, of course, the
> surgeon is suspect, since he makes oodles of money).

This is not my claim or my position.   But I do think that everyone has 
abilities that they can use for good or bad.  What I respect is that 
they use them for good.  If the pianist uses his/her abilities to do 
the right thing, then they are good.  If the surgeon uses his or her 
abilities to do bad things, they are not good and, of course, vice 
versa.

>
> And then the obligatory phrase about "helping the poor". How many poor
> people have *you* helped today? Certainly more than the contractor who
> offers them jobs and income, rather than handouts, right?

You have insufficient information to make any judgement about what I 
did today.  "Do not be like the hypocrites, when you give alms don't 
let your left hand know what your right hand is doing."

>
> Socialists will keep returning to the same mistakes, over and over
> again, until they learn Econ 101 lessons, like the fact that the
> market price is the best available measure of the social utility and
> social cost of an action or resource.

This -may- be true and doesn't contradict what I've been saying.  
According to you what happens when the "market price" is artificially 
fixed by violent means?

Although, our economics 101 classes are so stifled by capitalist 
propaganda that it's hard to make any judgments about what one learns 
in them.

"60% of millionaires are self-made"

Maybe, show us the study parameters or cite your sources and produce 
your definitions so we can look at the matter and see whether or not it 
was objectively investigated and whether or not the statement is a 
reasonable interpretation of the data.


Robbie Lindauer