[extropy-chat] Timescale to Singularity

[The Avantguardian]

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:

> So you don't consider yourself to be a biological
> machine.  How so?   
> In what way are you not a machine?   How are the
> ways you are not a  
> machine fundamentally unavailable to machines even
> if they become  
> many orders of magnitude more intelligent than you
> and I?

Oh, I am certain that the monkey that carries my
wallet is a machine but I am far more.

> 
> 
> > When an AI paints the Sistine Chapel or "the
> > Scream", I will be impressed.
> 
> Some of the AI art and music even with very
> specialized non-AGI  
> programs today convinces me that the day an AI
> impresses you is very  
> near indeed.  Prepare to be taken far beyond being
> impressed to sheer  
> awe not too far down the road.

Well I can still tell the difference between human art
and machine art but I will give time the benefit of
the doubt and wait and see.

> > I am ready. Let it match its will against
> > mine and let the universe decide. John Henry did
> not
> > beat the jackhammer but the whole point of the
> story
> > was that he ALMOST did and therefore COULD have.
> And
> > let no one forget that Kasparov did win a few
> games.
> 
> Is this a nerve getting hit?

Yes. The non-existent AI has hurt my feelings. :)


> In any contest where intelligence is the determining
> factor that is  
> surely NOT irrelevant.  My point is that while the
> advent of such AIs  
> may be a huge blow to our egos and self-image it
> need not be some war  
> against what is.

The advent of AI will not be a blow to my ego as I
don't see a need to have one. When one finds out who
one really is, ego is pointless.


> How would it necessarily be any threat to those?

An AI would not be a threat to my free will or self
determination unless people try to make it one. 


> > I am happy to co-exist with an A.I.
> > that does not try to kill me or to control me, but
> it
> > would have to earn my trust.
> 
> I am sure the AI will be extremely eager to "earn
> your trust".  More  
> likely you can either tilt at the windmill or find
> what place you can  
> in the world with it.

I have my place in the world. I was here first. If the
A.I. wants to co-exist with me, it will have to find a
place in the world of its own. If it tries to take my
place in the world, there will be conflict and
resolution. That is the way of things. I don't tilt at
wind mills. If one was in my way, I could eliminate it
with stuff from my kitchen cabinets. 

> 
> > Should it prove itself to
> > me as a friend, I would even be inclined to do it
> > favors. But it goes no further than that.
> >
> 
> It is highly unlikely that "friend" would be
> applicable to say a  
> human vs ant level of difference.

      Well I don't have anything against ants as long
as they don't raid my sugar jar. In fact ants are very
cool. There are ants in the tropics called bullet ants
that can drop a full grown man with one bite (feels
like a bullet). Other ants farm aphids or fungus. Ants
are very complex and fascinating. I think you
underestimate them. Besides all I have to do to earn
an AI's respect is to defeat it at go and I feel that
is entirely within the realm of possibility.

> Please submit your proof that you and billions of
> mostly even more  
> limited humans are capable of running this world
> sanely much less the  
> increasingly complex world we are ever more quickly
> moving into.

      The world strikes me as still pretty sane. We've
got problems yes, but the ones that tell you that it
is spiralling out of control are the ones that are
trying to scare you into giving them yet more power
over you. About the only problem with the world is a
lack of vision. 
      Not that there are no visionaries in the world
but that the voices of the visionaries are drowned out
by the chanted mantras of the brainwashed masses. All
to the tune set by those mediocre souls that champion
the status quo. So power structures do not change
while the very essence of the world changes beneath
those structures.
      As you have obviously recognized this change has
been manifested as increased complexity. But this
complication of our lives is a choice. You speak as if
we have no choice as to whether or not to complicate
things further. The truth is we could make our lives
as simple as we choose to. And as far as proof that
humanity can manage the affairs of humanity better
than an AI, I have a deal for you. You show me a
subroutine for love, compassion, and courage and I
will show you proof that leadership takes more than
intelligence no matter how super-human.

> It will not be in charge of everything.  I doubt it
> will care a lot  
> about your day to day affairs or mine.

Good. Then there is hope for peaceful co-existence. Of
course my day to day affairs may not be quite on par
with everybody else's.

> 
> > An AI does not have the right to be in charge of
> > anything more or less than itself like any other
> > sentient being.
> 
> Yep. That is what the ants said about us.  The trick
> is to do what we  
> can to insure that the AIs are much more humane than
> we.

Again with the ants. :) Ants ARE cool aren't they? Did
you know that villagers in certain parts of Africa
routinely evacuate themselves and their livestock from
the path of approaching swarms of driver ants? They
come back after a few days and their homes are free of
vermin. Now that's peaceful co-existense. :) 

> > We have not abolished gods and kings
> > only to be ruled by a unix box on steroids.
> 
> Some day you will understand just how utterly
> inappropriate that  
> rhetorical flourish is.

Let us hope I am wrong. My vision of transhumanity is
that of us surpassing ourselves and guiding our own
evolution in an enlightened fashion. Not building our
replacements and handing them the keys to the kingdom.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson


		
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