[extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again

[Mike Lorrey]

--- Samantha Atkins <sjatkins at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> Bush never believed the WMD claim.  The real intelligence did not  
> back it up and he was in position to have the real intelligence.    
> The evidence is that he used bogus intel long after he knew it was  
> bogus to whip up enthusiasm for this adventure.  In short he  
> defrauded Congress and the people.  He was not innocently mistaken.

How do you know what Bush believed? Bush tends to have convictions, and
has been raised to know the limits of an intelligence apparatus that
has been hamstrung by political games for decades. Knowing your intel
apparatus doesn't have info doesn't mean the info doesn't exist. As I
said, whether or not he knew whether Saddam had WMD is really
immaterial. He did know (and it has been proven) that Saddam had the
technical knowledge, manpower, and willingness to make WMD as soon as
the world stopped watching him. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool.

> > However, as I said before, if the result is
> > a domino effect of democratization and individual liberty in the  
> > middle
> > east, I don't care whether Saddam had WMD or not: he knew how to
> make
> > them, had the expertise and will to do so, and the moment the world
> > chose to end sanctions with him still in power, he'd be back making
> > them en masse, and anyone who thinks differently is naively
> foolish.
> >
> 
> That is a foolish statement when we barely respect individual liberty
> at home much less in occupied Iraq.  That various nations are  
> attempting to color themselves democratic to escape being next on our
> "axis of evil" list is hardly the same as real democracy, much less  
> real freedom.   Anyone who takes your hypothetical as somehow  
> providing support for your stance would be foolish.

Even the color of democracy has power. It is a common occurence for
criminals caught in other nations to insist that they be read their
miranda rights, because they saw it on some reruns of Starsky and
Hutch. If a nation tells its people they are democratic, then the
people will start believing in democracy, and start believing that they
control their governments. This is a dangerous game for a government to
play if it doesn't really intend to give them that power. Just look at
what happened in the Ukraine.

> 
> >
> > International law isn't suggestion, it is contract. If parties to a
> > contract refuse to enforce its provisions (i.e. the UN enforcing a
> > cease fire agreement with Saddam, the UN enforcing its charter
> against
> > the US, etc) then it really carries very little weight, and less  
> > weight
> > over time the less it is enforced. Considering the first gulf war
> is
> > the first time the UN (and the only time, really) has functioned as
> it
> > was designed, it really is a joke and lacking in moral authority.
> >
> 
> Our abrogation of treaties we signed gives us more moral authority  
> simply because we have more arms and will use them?

More misuse of words. Withdrawing from a treaty according to the terms
for withdrawal written into that treaty is not abrogation. Neither is
refusing to ratify a treaty that was merely signed by a previous
administration (which itself refused to ratify it). Claiming otherwise
is fraud.

>>> Of course some brute are kinder than others, and I must say as
> >> brutes go America must be in the top 5 percentile.
> >>
> >
> > A very good point that some people either don't believe or don't
> > want to believe.
> 
> I thought we prided ourselves on standing for and acting on  
> principals beyond might makes right.  Dead is dead regardless of  
> whether the US is or is not a kinder, gentler occupying power. I do
> not consider a lesser degree of flouting human rights including  
> stooping to torture to be any less heinous - especially for America. 
> It would be better not to be on the list of countries that act as  
> brutes at all.

Show me one country that doesn't have a brute for a government. They
don't exist. It is the job of government to be the biggest brute in its
territory, no matter what purposes it puts that brutishness to.
Organizations become governments by winning the brute game. The only
difference between a government and a mafia is that one is bigger and
more powerful than the other.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com


		
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