[extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and legality again

[c c]

No doubt. However a liar known as FDR skillfully
manipulated the US into WWII. All wars are
orchestrated by liars, cheaters, and connivers. So
what. The war is legally unjustified, we agree on
that. So what do we do after over two years and three
months? What's the fallback position?


> >> Bush never believed the WMD claim.  The real
> intelligence did not
> >> back it up and he was in position to have the
> real intelligence.
> >> The evidence is that he used bogus intel long
> after he knew it was
> >> bogus to whip up enthusiasm for this adventure. 
> In short he
> >> defrauded Congress and the people.  He was not
> innocently mistaken.
> >>
> >
> > How do you know what Bush believed?
> 
> Because of subsequent memos and other reports that
> have come out  
> since then.
> 
> > Bush tends to have convictions, and
> > has been raised to know the limits of an
> intelligence apparatus that
> > has been hamstrung by political games for decades.
> Knowing your intel
> > apparatus doesn't have info doesn't mean the info
> doesn't exist.
> 
> My point was that some of the supporting arguments
> he presented  
> (yellow cake for instance) we no know he was still
> presenting after  
> he knew they were baseless.
> 
> > As I
> > said, whether or not he knew whether Saddam had
> WMD is really
> > immaterial. He did know (and it has been proven)
> that Saddam had the
> > technical knowledge, manpower, and willingness to
> make WMD as soon as
> > the world stopped watching him. Anyone who thinks
> otherwise is a fool.
> >
> 
> That is utterly irrelevant to the lies that we were
> told in  
> justification.
> 
> >
> >>> However, as I said before, if the result is
> >>> a domino effect of democratization and
> individual liberty in the
> >>> middle
> >>> east, I don't care whether Saddam had WMD or
> not: he knew how to
> >>>
> >> make
> >>
> >>> them, had the expertise and will to do so, and
> the moment the world
> >>> chose to end sanctions with him still in power,
> he'd be back making
> >>> them en masse, and anyone who thinks differently
> is naively
> >>>
> >> foolish.
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> That is a foolish statement when we barely
> respect individual liberty
> >> at home much less in occupied Iraq.  That various
> nations are
> >> attempting to color themselves democratic to
> escape being next on our
> >> "axis of evil" list is hardly the same as real
> democracy, much less
> >> real freedom.   Anyone who takes your
> hypothetical as somehow
> >> providing support for your stance would be
> foolish.
> >>
> >
> > Even the color of democracy has power. It is a
> common occurence for
> > criminals caught in other nations to insist that
> they be read their
> > miranda rights, because they saw it on some reruns
> of Starsky and
> > Hutch. If a nation tells its people they are
> democratic, then the
> > people will start believing in democracy, and
> start believing that  
> > they
> > control their governments. This is a dangerous
> game for a  
> > government to
> > play if it doesn't really intend to give them that
> power. Just look at
> > what happened in the Ukraine.
> >
> 
> Interesting point. It is a pity that much of the US
> is fooled by the  
> game though. :-8
> 
> >
> >>>> Of course some brute are kinder than others,
> and I must say as
> >>>> brutes go America must be in the top 5
> percentile.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> A very good point that some people either don't
> believe or don't
> >>> want to believe.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I thought we prided ourselves on standing for and
> acting on
> >> principals beyond might makes right.  Dead is
> dead regardless of
> >> whether the US is or is not a kinder, gentler
> occupying power. I do
> >> not consider a lesser degree of flouting human
> rights including
> >> stooping to torture to be any less heinous -
> especially for America.
> >> It would be better not to be on the list of
> countries that act as
> >> brutes at all.
> >>
> >
> > Show me one country that doesn't have a brute for
> a government. They
> > don't exist. It is the job of government to be the
> biggest brute in  
> > its
> > territory, no matter what purposes it puts that
> brutishness to.
> > Organizations become governments by winning the
> brute game. The only
> > difference between a government and a mafia is
> that one is bigger and
> > more powerful than the other.
> 
> This isn't what the Founders said they were
> attempting to build.  And  
> no, that is not the only difference.  What happened
> to "that  
> government is best that governs least"?  What
> happened to the  
> minarchist government ideal that government exists
> only by the  
> consent of the governed in order to do only those
> things that cannot  
> be done as well or without chaos by private groups
> to secure the  
> rights of the people?  What of the notion of the
> goodness of avoiding  
> foreign entanglements?  Ah, I forgot.  You believe
> that freedom  
> requires taking responsibility for the freedom of
> everyone in the world.
> 
> - samantha
> 
> 
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>
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> 



		
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