[extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again

The Avantguardian avantguardian2020 at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 28 07:46:51 UTC 2005


--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> >
> >Hey fellas. You guys are having an argument about
> >estimates made through the fog of war. They are
> >unreliable at best. Think about taking the average
> of
> >the figures insetad any one figure or other is the
> >closest to the truth.
> >
> >  
> >
> They are not unreliable when it comes to counting up
> captured and dead 
> enemy.
> And 6.25% is not exactly close to Mikes statement of
> 'most' ie >50%

Well that could be biased by the Iraqi youths being
talked into taking the higher risk missions and
therfore getting killed more often. What we really
need is to infiltrate the resistance to find out who
and what is really going on. Its very hard to fight a
canny war when the side you are on insists on
broadcasting every little move it makes to the whole
world and the other side does everything with the
utmost secrecy.

> >  
> >
> Then stay and get kicked out.
> A solid US defeat will make the world a better
> place.

How would a solid US defeat make the world a better
place? Let you buy more McDonald's french fries for
the euro? Is that is what this all about? The United
States is not perfect by any stretch of the
imagination but we try to be better than we are.
      Admittedly I was ashamed of the stuff that I the
rest of world found out was happening in Abu Gharib
and Gitmo. And I in my capacity as an American
apologize to the world for that. This is obviously not
because I was anywhere in the chain of command at
either location nor in any other way responsible for
it, but simply because it was MY country. I would
however like to point out that the pictures and
stories from both places also came from Americans both
journalists and whistleblowing soldiers. This makes me
feel proud. There's a bad American in every lot
soldiers included, but 9 out of 10 of them good
people. And the good people in the U.S., military or
otherwise, have the will and the courage to police the
bad. 


> >
> I was one of the millions who demonstrated against
> the war. The biggest 
> demos in British history.
> I'd like to see that arse licking poodle Blair hung
> from a lamppost.

I protested the war too in some of the record
demonstrations in Los Angeles. Back when it first
started and for quite a while after it was supposed to
be over. I have never had such a hard time figuring
out what a particular war was about. Between the lies
told by the Bush administration, the bizarre
conspiracy theories, and international propaganda
campaign, I thought this was one of the most
mysterious wars in history despite the fact that it
recieved the most intensive news coverage of any war
in history.
      Now after wading through all the crap, I think I
know what the hell is happening there and why its
happening there. Yes Bush lied. My whole state and I
voted against him twice because I never trusted him.
In retrospect he could have just told us that he
wanted to garrison a large force in the middle east to
keep the peace and keep the oil flowing. Had he told
the truth about it, he might have gotten the U.N. to
go along with him like the democrats wanted all along.

But for reasons of his own, he lied about imminent
threats and WMDs. In that sense Bush sucks.
     But whereas before when I protested the war it
was because I thought we were doing the wrong thing
for the right reasons. Now I support the war because I
think we are doing the right thing for the wrong
reasons. If there really is a democracy in Iraq right
now at least as real as the one here in the States
then we did a good thing. If we leave too quickly then
either the Baathist minority that oppressed the
majority for so long resumes power or the clerics take
over which would be just as bad.
      Babylon used to be a center of civilization for
the world. We could make it so once again. 
> 
> >
> They got into this mess because through a
> combination of stupidity, 
> greed, and self righteous arrogance.
> And your last post seemed to sum up the US attitude
> of sneering 
> condescension towards the insurgents.

Yes. Bush supplied the stupidity. Cheney supplied the
greed. And somebody, possibly Colin Powell supplied
the arrogance. You could probably work your way
through Bush's cabinet with character traits like
that. But how was any post of mine condescending or
sneering to the Iraqis or the insurgents? I seem to
remember warning against underestimating them several
posts ago. I don't think Americans on the street are
condescending to the insurgents, hell I doubt the
average American knows who they are. The average
American just wants their boys to come home and Iraq
to enjoy the democracy that we had to build for them
with our tax dollars.

 You forgot to
> mention that good 
> old standby of 'they are only blowing themselves up
> for the money'.
What? Who says this? 
> Every time I read a post like yours I feel like
> cheering those bodybags 
> flying to the US.

What did I say? Do you disagree with me that the
insurgents are gullible youths that are tricked into
fighting for a cause that they hold no stake in? Would
you disagree with me that most of the U.S. marines
that are stationed there are gullible youths that are
tricked into fighting for a cause that they hold no
stake in? How is what I said condescending? 

> Hey - it's only a bunch of freakin ragheads - let's
> go kick some ass - 
> yeeehaaaaaaaw!

sigh... we're not all from Texas.

> Almost every military defeat in history has been due
> to underestimating 
> the enemy. Wasn't the US supposed to have learned
> something from the 
> gooks and slopes, or Vietnamese as we used to call
> them?

> I've read reports from US troops 'on the ground' and
> I don't believe the 
> US can maintain the current situation unless they
> increase the forces by 
> around 50%. The Iraqis are not going to be much use,
> not least because 
> the police and military are heavily infiltrated by
> insurgents. Hey - 
> wanna buy a second hand Iraqi M4 carbine? never
> fired and only dropped once.
> 
Well if they want us to leave let them vote us away.
If over half of the Iraqis want us gone, I say we
start packing.


The Avantguardian 
is 
Stuart LaForge
alt email: stuart"AT"ucla.edu

"The surest sign of intelligent life in the universe is that they haven't attempted to contact us." 
-Bill Watterson

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