[extropy-chat] Re: Iraq and Legality Again

[Mike Lorrey]

--- Dirk Bruere <dirk at neopax.com> wrote:

> The Avantguardian wrote:
> 
> >>They are not unreliable when it comes to counting up
> >>captured and dead 
> >>enemy.
> >>And 6.25% is not exactly close to Mikes statement of
> >>'most' ie >50%
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >Well that could be biased by the Iraqi youths being
> >talked into taking the higher risk missions and
> >therfore getting killed more often. What we really
> >  
> >
> No, the bulk of the suicide missions are foreigners.
> The bulk of the conventional warfare is Iraqi.

One more misnomer. Guerilla insurgents do not engage in 'conventional
warfare'. They too are war criminals under the Geneva Conventions, for
not wearing uniforms, or answering to a command structure, and most
importantly, for hiding behind unarmed civilians in civilian
facilities. Whether they are 'patriots' fighting for restoration of the
Baathist (stalinist) revolution or not is immaterial to the fact that
they use illegitimate tactics. They may have no choice but to use such
tactics due to the force ratio between sides, but when you do use such
tactics, you must accept being a criminal operating outside the laws of
war and must accept the possible consequences. During and after WWII,
when Germans fought out of uniform, the allies just lined them up
against a wall and shot them all, as that is what the Conventions say
is legitimate penalty for such war crimes.

The insurgents are certainly NOT patriotic in the sense of representing
all Iraqis. The Kurds and the Shiits make up the majority of the
population and are thus, in todays world, legitimate claimants to
sovereignty, no matter how many or few Sunnis choose to participate in
government. The insurgents are clearly representative ONLY of the
former Baathist ruling class and its followers.
 
> >now at least as real as the one here in the States
> >then we did a good thing. If we leave too quickly then
> >either the Baathist minority that oppressed the
> >majority for so long resumes power or the clerics take
> >over which would be just as bad.
> >      Babylon used to be a center of civilization for
> >the world. We could make it so once again. 
> >  
> >
> Democracy is cannot be imposed against the will of the people.
> IMO the only people who will embrace democracy are the Kurds.
> All the US is going to have to show for this debacle is a Kurdish
> state at war with Turkey, a Sunni Islamic state in the middle and a
> Southern Shia state as a close ally of Iran.

The Shiite Iraqis accept secular democratic government, along with the
Kurds. A number of Sunni groups are also participating. Only die-hard
baathists and their followers continue to resist.

> >> You forgot to mention that good old standby of 'they are only
> >> blowing themselves up for the money'.
> >>    
> >>
> >What? Who says this? 
> >  
> >
> That's the standard line on suicide bombings in Israel and the
> occuppied lands.

Sure is, and it is truth. Note how the suicide bombings in Israel have
dropped off now that Saddam is unable to pay Palestinian families $50k
when their children suicide bomb others? The economics of terrorism
follow a definite supply/demand price curve...

In Iraq, though, an interesting thing is being found in car bomb
wreckage: drivers bodies are being found with their feet duct-taped to
the gas pedals and wrists handcuffed to the steering wheels.

> > >
> >What did I say? Do you disagree with me that the
> >insurgents are gullible youths that are tricked into
> >fighting for a cause that they hold no stake in? Would
> >you disagree with me that most of the U.S. marines
> >that are stationed there are gullible youths that are
> >tricked into fighting for a cause that they hold no
> >stake in? How is what I said condescending? 
> >
> >  
> >
> I would say that the insurgents know full well what they are getting 
> into and have a far greater stake in the war than any US marine.

Of course, loss of Baath Party rule means every thug insurgent is going
to have to get a real job.

> >  
> >
> "These young men come from the poorest of families
> and are lied to every step of the way. From the moment
> when some interesting stranger invites him to a feast
> with wine, drugs, and dancing girls. ..snip..
>      It is these recruiters and leiutenants that the
> military must nab to break the resistance. The rest
> would just as easily surrender for a hot meal."    
> 
> 
> What you wrote there are the ravings of a brainwashed ignoramus.

What you write sounds like the propaganda of the British Baath Party.
Is that what "The Consensus" is about?


Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 
Blog: http://intlib.blogspot.com

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