[extropy-chat] Atheism in Decline

[Joseph Bloch]

Dirk Bruere wrote:

> Of all the neopagan religions Asatru is the one that is least 'made up'. 


Nonsense. It is made up almost entirely out of whole cloth, and has much 
more in common with Wicca than it does with anything the ancient Norse 
would have recognized. Eightfold wheel of the year? Runic divination? 
Libations as blot? Hammer-hallowing rituals? Even if you didn't make it 
up, Steven McNallen, Edred Thorsson, and Kveldulf Gunnerson did, and the 
fact that you just follow along makes it even sadder.

> One thing almost all Asatruar agree upon though is 'Asatru is as 
> Asatru does'.


As statements go, that's one of the more meaningless.

>
>> You're an atheist by most definitions, even if you eschew the label. 
>> You don't believe in the objective existence of god(s). From what 
>> you've said before, they're archetypes; mental constructs. They have 
>> no existence outside your mind. The grain does not grow because some 
>> being named FreyR commands it so, and the world will not end in fire 
>> because some giant named SurtR will incinerate us all with his 
>> flaming sword.
>>
> Just because we recognise that our religious texts are metaphor does 
> not mean we cannot claim to be a religion.


I never claimed your style of Asatru (I say your style, because there 
are Asatruar who believe in the literal existence of the gods) wasn't a 
religion, nor was I speaking about religious texts. I was referring to 
your conception of the gods, and their lack of objective existence.

> And Gods recognised as archetypes makes them no less powerful in Human 
> affairs than if they were 'really real'.
> It means that the Gods are an emergent phenomenon at the next level up 
> from Human.


New Age gobbledegook. As archetypes they have no existence beyond human 
psychology (individual or group) and as such no truly independent 
existence. They are as much an "emergent phenomenon" as Santa Claus.

> Unless one has experience in meeting or dealing with the Gods (and 
> that's ignoring deity being hung upon the mystical experience). 


You say you "meet the gods" (which you already admit have no independent 
existence, being mere psychological archetypes). I say you experienced 
some interesting brain chemistry, resulting from a few hundred thousand 
years of evolution that made such experiences a survival trait. The fact 
that you interpreted those perfectly natural impulses as "meeting the 
gods" is irrelevant to their actual nature. You're watching the shadows 
on the wall, but not bothering to see the light behind you. The fact 
that such experiences are all culturally specific should tell you the 
origin is organic, not metaphysical.

Joseph

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