[extropy-chat] Atheism in Decline

[Technotranscendence]

On Saturday, March 05, 2005 11:08 PM Olga Bourlin fauxever at sprynet.com
wrote:
>>> Leaving that aside, I am struck by this quaint
>>> phrase "the faithful", in this forum of all places,
>>> as a synonym for "theist". The contrary of an
>>> atheist, by definition, is a theist. The contrary
>>> of someone who is faithful is someone who
>>> is faith*less*, and hence by implication
>>> untrustworthy, devious, two-faced and
>>> generally not nice to have around.
>>
>> Well, you're playing on the variant meanings of
>> faith.  I believe most people ordinarily use it in
>> non-religious contexts to mean "trust" or
>> "confidence."  E.g., if Joe says he has faith in
>> Fred to complete the job properly, he means
>> he confidence Fred will do it properly.  Typically,
>> such faith is based on actual experience.  I
>> mean Joe wouldn't say it if he knew Fred was
>> a slacker and incompetent.  Then he might tell
>> us he had faith that Fred would not do the job
>> properly -- or, more likely, that he lacked faith
>> in Fred.
>
> Aah, but Mike didn't use the term "faith"

I was speaking to Damien's usage -- not Mike's -- and trying to point
out that "faith" has a meaning aside from the one used in the context of
religious belief.

> - but "persons of faith" and "the faithful."  The
> word "faith" imputed in those instances is more
> like ... an admission that there is no evidence.
> (In other words, what does faith actually mean
> but an admission that there is no evidence?)

In religious or epistemic contexts, it means either no evidence for a
view (as in "animal faith") or believing against the evidence (as in
Tertullian's faith:  I believe it because it's absurd).

> The variant use of faith (denoting "trust") in
> your example (i.e., "actual experience") is the
> opposite of "faith," if, indeed, that trust is based
> on [some] evidence or experience.

It's not so much the opposite as just a variant meaning.  (After all,
"faith" as "trust" or "confidence" could be based on "faith" as in no
evidence or contradicting available evidence.  The problem is that most
people I've seen confuse the two and often use the former meaning in
contexts where it's no attached to the latter.  Just substitute in
"trust" or "confidence" when you think it's the former and you'll see
the two concepts needn't be contradictory.  Someone could have faith in
the Lord, so to speak.:)  The problem is the word is not the concept.
In English at least, there are at least two different meanings -- two
different concepts -- covered by the same word faith.

>> Of course, many theists like to equivocate with
>> both meanings of the term.  The "faithful" as a
>> euphemism for "theist" pays off in this respect:
>> it allows those using it to sneak in the religious
>> aspects with a general feeling that the faithful
>> are better than the irreligious.
>
> Theists are good at equivocating, that's for sure.
> They dualist that all the time.

Funny.  I thought the argument about atheists not understanding the
minutiae of various religious debates as an argument against atheism
entertaining.  I guess those not familiar with the minutiae about
phlogiston should not be taken seriously when they take Lavoisier's side
on that issue.

Regards,

Dan
http://uweb1.superlink.net/~neptune/