Stem Cell politics was Re: [extropy-chat] Proposal: was- AChilling Thought.

Mike Lorrey mlorrey at
Wed May 18 06:15:18 UTC 2005

--- Brett Paatsch <bpaatsch at> wrote:
> What I am trying to point out to you is that there are good
> scientific
> reasons for not regarding a five day old embryo as having the same
> potential or moral significance as an embryo or fetus that has
> developed to a substantially later stage. 

I never said I did. I am entirely fine with aborting a fetus less than,
say, two weeks old. It is incredibly hard for anyone to justify that is
either an individual or with sensory capacity of any sort whatsoever. I
am increasingly less fine as the fetus ages.

> > .. Pro-abortionists become irate when pro-lifers truthfully
> > display actual photography, cardiography, and other records of
> fetuses
> > before, during, and after they were aborted. Why are they not proud
> of the butchery they do?
> I don't think its realistic to expect that a woman would ever (or
> often) be proud of having had an abortion, the process is too
> unpleasant, what they are chosing is what amounts to a lesser to
> two unpleasant choices.

This is the real problem. The right to a pursuit of happiness does not
include the right to feel pleasant, or even less unpleasant, at the
expense of others rights or existences.

> As for photographs diagrams anything that makes clear what is
> actually
> going on, for the most part I agree with you. Society should make its
> moral decisions with its eyes wide open.

Thank you.

> > I am a hunter. I kill animals. I do not deny or hide the blood and
> > guts. Unlike abortionists, I do take care that my victims suffer as
> > little as possible. I am the honest one.
> I can respect your attitude as a hunter but I think you are being
> harsh on the class of woman that choose to have abortions.

Have you ever seen a man convicted in a tribal setting turned over for
punishment by the victims female relatives? Women can be far more
brutal than men.

> > Feminists are arrogant in thinking that only their choice counts,
> that
> > they are responsible enough to objectively consider what is best
> for
> > their fetus independently of what they feel is best for themselves,
> and
> > sexist in asserting that man's choice lasts a few minutes but a
> woman's
> > choice lasts 9 months.
> Perhaps you have a point but *practically* how could you have a
> policy that worked differently than what we currently have?

a) if a man wants an abortion, and the woman doesn't, she and the state
should allow the father to relenquish all rights and future obligations
wrt the child.
b) if a pregnant woman leaves a jurisdiction to raise a child alone and
separate from the father, she relenquishes all future claims against
him for support of the child when she crosses the state line.
c) if a man does not want an abortion, and the mother does, she must
either compense him the cost of a surrogate pregnancy, or have the
child, and relenquish it to the father in exchange for fair expense for
the term of pregnancy. When the father pays the bills, the mother
permanently relenquishes all rights and obligations.

> > Do I object to my tax dollars subsidizing such activities? No,
> because
> > I have no choice, my right to choose and my right to keep my
> property
> > have been stripped from me by the theivery and thuggery of the
> state.
> > They are the criminals and the accessories to death. A crime victim
> > never gets a choice in the disbursement of that which is stolen
> from
> > him. It is enough that I object to being robbed to begin with.
> This seems a bit ranty Mike. That's a pity because, imo, you raise
> some good points when you keep your equilibrium a bit better, and
> resist the urge to color the opposing view to your own in the most
> extreme light.

Odd, I thought that the most tame paragraph of them all. I thought this
and the idea that taxpayer being allowed to choose which programs their
taxes go to is a rather moderate and conciliatory. You ain't seen extreme.

Mike Lorrey
Vice-Chair, 2nd District, Libertarian Party of NH
"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom.
It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."
                                      -William Pitt (1759-1806) 

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